Podcast appearances and mentions of chuck cowdery

Chuck Cowdery was called “the dean of American whiskey journalism” by no less than Robert Simonson in the New York Times. So when I decided more than 250 episodes into this podcast to finally devote one to Mexican whiskey, I naturally invited my celebrated drinking buddy over. It's (perhaps) the corniest episode of Agave Road Trip!Agave Road Trip is a critically acclaimed, award-winning podcast that helps gringx bartenders better understand agave, agave spirits, and rural Mexico. This episode is hosted by Lou Bank with special guest Chuck Cowdery and additional wisdom from Ismael Gomez of Laika Spirits, Xaime Navarro of Whisky Juan del Campo and Gracias a Dios Mezcal, Txomin Alcorta of Whisky Prieto y Prieta, and Jonathan Barbieri of Whiskey Maiz Nation!Episode NotesCheck out The Chuck Cowdery Blog!Thanks to Ismael Gomez of Laika Spirits, Xaime Navarro of Gracias a Dios Mezcal and Juan Del Campo Whiskey, Txomin Alcorta of Whisky Prieto y Prieta, and Jonathan Barbieri of Whiskey Maiz Nation for the quotes this episode.You can check out NOM 199 here and to see how the rules for whiskey in Mexico compare to the rules for Mezcal, Tequila, and everything else, check out this spreadsheet.And if the tangent about feni in Goa got you going, check out Hansel Vaz's Instagram page and Fazenda Cazulo!

This week, Matt and Jason open one of the most legendary bottles in bourbon history: A.H. Hirsch Reserve 16-Year Bourbon. Distilled in 1974 at the now-lost Michter's Distillery in Pennsylvania, Hirsch is one of the rarest and most sought-after unicorns among bourbon collectors.We walk you through the wild backstory — from its humble Pennsylvania beginnings, to years forgotten in stainless steel tanks, to becoming a crown jewel in the bourbon world.Come raise a glass with us inside a private cellar for this once-in-a-lifetime tasting.

Join us on our latest episode (Episode 100!) where we team up with our friends at The Mash Up.  On this episode we try the King!  King of Kentucky that is.  The limited-edition 2024 release of King of Kentucky marks the seventh anniversary for the brand, which started with a release in 2018. This year the single barrels used for the release are 16 year old KY Bourbon.  There are approximately 5,100 bottles that were released with the majority going to Kentucky. Is this the best bourbon we have reviewed on the show?  Was it the best of 2024?  Is King of Kentucky deserving of the crown?  Only one way to find out...Special guests on this episode are Kenny and Anthony from  @themashupky  https://www.breakingbourbon.com/bourbon-whiskey-press-releases/king-of-kentucky-bourbon-releases-seventh-edition#bourbon #bourbonreview #kybourbon #bestbourbon #podcast #rare #newrelease #arsenicculture  The King Of Kentucky-E100https://www.youtube.com/@arsenicculturehttps://instagram.com/arsenicculturehttps://tiktok.com/@arsenicculturehttps://www.facebook.com/arsenicculture/https://x.com/arsenicculture

Join us on this episode where we try one of the latest releases from the Beam portfolio, Old Overholt Cask Strength Straight Rye Whiskey.  This release is aged for 11 years and is 107.4 proof.  But enough about the whiskey, let's talk about the history and the Maniacal Mennonite himself, Abraham Overholt.  Is Old Overholt 11y cask strength rye worth the price tag?  Do you know what kept his brand going through Prohibition?  Watch (or listen) as we tell you all about ithttps://www.mensjournal.com/food-drink/old-overholt-releases-extra-aged-cask-strength-11-yearhttps://whiskyadvocate.com/true-story-old-overholt-rye#bourbon #bourbonreview #jimbeam #podcast #rare #newrelease #arsenicculture  https://www.youtube.com/@arsenicculturehttps://instagram.com/arsenicculturehttps://tiktok.com/@arsenicculturehttps://www.facebook.com/arsenicculture/https://x.com/arseniccultureOld Overholt: The Maniacal Mennonite-E91https://www.youtube.com/@arsenicculturehttps://instagram.com/arsenicculturehttps://tiktok.com/@arsenicculturehttps://www.facebook.com/arsenicculture/https://x.com/arsenicculture

Dig whiskey? Dig the blog of the mighty Chuck Cowdery!Want to know more about Hacienda de Chihuahua Sotol? Click here!

Join us on our latest episode where we track down and try rye whiskey finished in one of the rarest barrels in the world.  On this episode we try Raconteur Rye, a whiskey collaboration from David Jennings (RareBird 101) and James Symons (from the Woodwork Collective).  This limited edition release is composed of the following straight rye whiskeys:95/5 Indiana straight rye whiskey (new charred oak)95/5 Indiana straight rye whiskey (toasted oak)95/5 Indiana straight rye whiskey finished in a Mizunara caskIs it worth it? Only one way to find out...https://raconteurrye.com/https://tinyurl.com/4yy3mhjs#newrelease #rye #bourbon #ryewhisky #whiskey #whiskeyreview #bourbonreview #drinkreview #podcast #isitworthit #arsenicculture https://www.youtube.com/@arsenicculturehttps://instagram.com/arsenicculturehttps://tiktok.com/@arsenicculturehttps://www.facebook.com/arsenicculture/https://x.com/arseniccultureThe Rarest Barrel In The World-E78https://www.youtube.com/@arsenicculturehttps://instagram.com/arsenicculturehttps://tiktok.com/@arsenicculturehttps://www.facebook.com/arsenicculture/https://x.com/arsenicculture

You can't log onto a Facebook Tequila group without seeing Cristalino Tequila derided, abused, and generally treated as some kind of punch line. But … do those user groups reflect the average consumer? Does the average consumer matter as much as the more highly engaged consumers that populate these online groups? And does consumption itself matter as much as cultural heritage? And why do I like the average Tequila Cristalino more than I like the average Tequila? That's what I discuss with my past self on this time-travel episode of Agave Road Trip! Agave Road Trip is a critically acclaimed, award-winning podcast that helps gringx bartenders better understand agave, agave spirits, and rural Mexico. This episode is hosted by Lou Bank with special guest Lou Bank from the Past and filled with interview clips from Jaime Salas of Proximo and Jose Cuervo Tequila; Juan Eduardo Nuñez of Tequila El Viejito; Tequila-geek royalty Khrys Maxwell; dean of American whiskey journalism, Chuck Cowdery, and Barbara Engelskirchen from the National Museum of Mexican Art. Find extra photos and related links at agaveroadtrip.comHeritage Radio Network is a listener supported nonprofit podcast network. Support Agave Road Trip by becoming a member!Agave Road Trip is Powered by Simplecast.

Back in the mid-70's, long before 97X came along, there was a free-form station on 97.7 FM in Oxford called WOXR. Chuck Cowdery was part of that merry gang playing progressive rock... and whatever else they wanted to. It's clear from talking to Chuck that WOXR was on the same frequency as 97X, both literally and figuratively - and that station influenced a generation who, if they stuck around the area, were much more receptive to a modern rock format. 

The 23rd episode of the Bourbon & Banter podcast – The Horsemen Ride - is now available for your listening and drinking pleasure. With the Midwest weather, Pops and Bob have braved wind, sleet, snow, ice, hail, and bad bourbon to bring you this month's installment of the most honest podcast in bourbon. Our community thread spotlight reflects on a new product that brings dung, yes ACTUAL DUNG, to gin. If you want to join the Bourbon & Banter community, where we cut all the bullshit from standard social media groups like crotch shots, be sure to check out our social media platforms for more information. The whiskey news reflects on a historic burn to AB-InBev's new Bud Light Nex, likely from their archrivals over at Miller Coors. The moral here folks: always register your web domain. Chuck Cowdery shares his thoughts on rebranding MGP's flagship bourbon George Remus (yes, we know they changed the name of the distillery…we don't care), and politicians are at it again, this time with Kentucky's single barrel programs. Our new release spotlight starts with one of the best offerings we've had recently, this one from Green River Distilling. Pops doesn't recommend a bottle…he recommends several bottles. The Craft Shoot comes in blazing with a release that inspires some of the most feverish commentary we've heard from this segment. You'll have to listen to find out if it's good or bad. We close Episode #23 with the most popular segment in all of bourbon podcasting: BOURBON BULLSHIT featuring peanut butter whiskey and a disturbing development with the newest spirits awards competition.  Have comments or questions? Drop us a line at podcast@bourbonbanter.com.  Cheers! 

Vi inleder avsnitt 89 med ett korkat tilltag, får lite lyssnarfeedback, svarar på en fråga och hälsar på hos Cooley. Sen undrar ni alla hur vi kopplar ihop en tecknad kanin/hare med veckans ord, eller hur? Lyssna vidare så klarnar allt, förutom vem Fill Kollins är... Nu kör vi! Korkbrott Gruppen I wish screwcaps were more posh than corks vill vi tipsa om: https://www.facebook.com/groups/101684892845 Mathusöppnare heter tydligen bladöppnare och Mathus är ett märke, bra att ha. Se till exempel här: https://www.cervera.se/produkt/peugeot-mathus-bladoppnare-svart Vad är det i glaset? Mathias lyckades till sist få peta i sig Cinco av High Coast: https://www.whiskybase.com/whiskies/whisky/150066/high-coast-cinco David njöt av denna från Whiskybroker: https://www.whiskybase.com/whiskies/whisky/144659/craigellachie-2007-whb Jeroen smuttade på den häringa från samma destilleri: https://www.whiskybase.com/whiskies/whisky/177615/craigellachie-12-year-old-ca David hade faktiskt provat just den på sin blogg och älskade den såhär mycket: https://tjederswhisky.se/sla-min-stjart-och-kalla-mig-judy/ Det här med att bara prova whisky från ett enda sample Detta var ju svårt att hitta några vettiga länkar på men vi tog ju upp Serge Valentins whiskyfun i alla fall: http://whiskyfun.com/ Batcher av whisky, märkningar, dateringar Har man onödigt mycket pengar och vill lära sig identifiera olika flaskor kan man också köpa Emmanuel Drons sindyra Collecting Scotch whisky. Där ligger fokus mer entydigt på flaskor från förr, inte modern whisky: https://www.collectingscotchwhisky.com/ En del om sådana här koder med fokus på Ardbeg kan man lära sig här: http://www.ardbegproject.com/codes.shtml Veckans destilleri – Cooley Hemsida för varumärket Kilbeggan: https://www.kilbegganwhiskey.com/our-process/ Hemsida för varumärket Connemara: https://www.connemarawhiskey.com/ Se också här: https://www.whisky.com/whisky-database/distilleries/details/cooley.html Helt okej info på wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CooleyDistillery Veckans ord: thumper I denna era när vi på ETW månne irriteras en skvätt över att våra barn inleder cirka alla konversationer med ”Det finns en video på youtube…” passar vi på att säga: det finns en video på youtube. Denna är från La maison du whisky där det hela förklaras snabbt och effektivt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otVmk8QaqE För en lite längre och bredare video där thumper dyker upp som en av många saker som ska förklaras, kolla här: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRx1bfpdz6E Sedan är grundregeln att man alltid ska lyssna på Chuck Cowdery: http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2012/04/double-your-pleasure.html Tony Acklands text ”Distilling designs for thumpers, doublers & slobber boxes” från 2012 har tagits bort från sajten där den fanns (homedistiller.org), men tacka vet vi underbara wayback machine som har kvar den: https://web.archive.org/web/20120212112537/https://homedistiller.org/equip/designs/thumper Den är faktiskt bättre än den här som också innehåller en och annan nyttighet: https://www.alcademics.com/2013/07/how-column-distillation-works-bourbon-edition.html Och så finns det ju alltså Stampe: https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/Thumper Notera att om man har extern värmekälla mer i stil med en spritpanna heter en sådan istället doubler på jänkarspråk. Mer om amerikanska produktionstermer får ni förstås från vårt avsnitt där vi pratade med Dr. Pat Heist: https://www.entreawhisky.se/78 Här når du oss: En trea whisky på Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/entreawhisky) Maila till oss på hej@entreawhisky.se Davids blogg tjederswhisky.se (https://www.tjederswhisky.se) Följ oss på Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/entreawhisky

NEW MAKE BATTLE! Gott? Äckligt? Striden fortsätter. Veckans tema är stort som en byggnad med pagodtak, vi kör nämligen tema destilleri. Veckans ord avslöjar hur just DU kan hitta när innehållet i flaskan är producerat. Veckans destilleri är stora – och märkvärdigt vackra – Dalmunach. Lika vackert som new make är gott. Eller? Vad var det i glaset? Mathias hade en Rusty Nail med Smögen Sherry project 1:4. Mer om Rusty Nail här: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RustyNail(cocktail) Jeroen körde en High Coast Berg: https://www.systembolaget.se/produkt/sprit/high-coast-8237502/ David hade dels en single cask Ledaig från Signatory Vintage, närmare bestämt exakt denna: https://www.whiskybase.com/whiskies/whisky/78067/ledaig-2005-sv …och lite new make från Craigellachie. Det där om att det bränner ledde till många referenser till Ove Markström som dricker Klorin och försöker prata efteråt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYJkXeqCjDA&abchannel=Jovelar Ägandeförhållanden i whiskybranschen; vad händer med Distell https://www.thespiritsbusiness.com/2021/05/heineken-in-talks-to-buy-majority-of-distell/ https://www.thespiritsbusiness.com/2021/08/distell-delays-dividend-as-heineken-talks-progress/ Det sista destilleriet Distell äger är förresten JUST Tobermory vars rökiga whisky heter Ledaig som David hade i glaset. Laliques flaskor åt Macallan Här har vi ett exempel. To each their own men vi på ETW tycker ungefär jösses vad jävla fult: https://www.lalique.com/en/world-of-lalique/news/when-worlds-of-mastery-unite-unveiling-the-macallan-72-years-old-in-lalique-the-genesis-decanter Vad är ett destilleri? Norrtelje brenneri: https://norrteljebrenneri.se/ Dallas Dhu, destilleriet som är ett museum: https://www.historicenvironment.scot/visit-a-place/places/dallas-dhu-historic-distillery/ Kennetpans distillery grundades av whiskymagnaten John Stein 1777 och lades ned 1825. Du kan läsa lite om det här: https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2015/01/whisky-mafia-distillery-to-get-funding/ https://scotchwhisky.com/magazine/from-the-editors/20638/it-s-time-to-protect-whisky-s-history/ Vackra bilder finns här: https://www.flickr.com/search/?text=kennetpans%20distillery Foto: Brian Smith/Flickr Den bästa källan till nedlagda skotska destillerier är Brian Townsends bok Scotch missed, som kan starkt anbefallas som intressant läsning. För ihopblandningen av destilleri och varumärke bör man läsa vad som helst om bourbon, gärna Bourbon, Straight av Chuck Cowdery. Mackmyra: pilotdestilleriet var igång 1999–2002; de nya pannorna på samma plats användas 2002–2013; gravitationsdestilleriet invigdes och har varit igång sedan december 2011. Under en viss period hade alltså Mackmyra två destillerier igång samtidigt….! Det där med Skånska spritfabriken kan man läsa mer om här: https://tjederswhisky.se/inget-mindre-an-en-skandal/ https://tjederswhisky.se/systembolaget-menar-att-ardbeg-kan-vara-svensk-whisky/ https://tjederswhisky.se/systembolagets-svar-angaende-svensk-whisky/ Andrew Derbidge har skrivit om detta med australiensiska destillerier och inköpandet av mäsk, även om David kan tycka att han just här är lite väl kritisk till inköpandet av mäsk utifrån, som om det är fusk att göra det: https://www.whiskyandwisdom.com/australian-whiskys-beer-loophole/ Om David bara hade läst David före inspelningen hade han faktiskt hittat än mer grejer för att problematisera detta med vad ett destilleri är, bland annat hur exakt samma pannor kan användas på olika destillerier när något destilleri har nedlagts. Läs bara här: https://tjederswhisky.se/vad-ar-ett-destilleri/ Datering Ardbeg Project: http://www.ardbegproject.com/ Vi slutar aldrig länka till whiskybase: https://whiskybase.com/ Som David förklarade, om du verkligen vill gå in på djupet, lätta på lädret och köp Collecting Scotch whisky av Emmanuel Dron: https://www.collectingscotchwhisky.com/ Det finns massor mer att säga om datering, detta var verkligen bara ett skrapande på ytan. Här kan du läsa lite lite mer: https://blog.whisky.auction/how-to/how-to-date-a-bottle/ Veckans destilleri: Dalmunach Här lite foton på gamla Imperial distillery som låg på platsen: https://www.derelictplaces.co.uk/threads/imperial-distillery-speyside-march-2011.19401/ Veckans destilleri: Imperial på ETW avsnitt 32: https://www.entreawhisky.se/32 Dalmunach kom igång med produktionen 2015 och det ligger i Speyside. Destilleriet kostade tydligen 25 miljoner pund att bygga. Dalmunach har ingen egen hemsida, men här finns lite saker att läsa, om än inte uppdaterat: https://scotchwhisky.com/whiskypedia/2207/dalmunach/ De har faktiskt själva släpp en officiell buteljering, en 4 YO: https://whiskymag.com/story/exclusive:-first-whisky-released-from-dalmunach-distillery Här har vi arkikekterna som ritade och byggde Dalmunach: https://norr.com/project/dalmunach-distillery/ Och här den ovannämnde Derbidge som besöker Dalmunach, med många matnyttiga detaljer för den nyfikne: https://www.whiskyandwisdom.com/dalmunach-distillery/ Foto: Norr Architects Foto: Martyn Jenkins/Flickr Här når du oss: En trea whisky på Facebook (https://ww.facebook.com/entreawhisky) Maila till oss på hej@entreawhisky.se Davids blogg tjederswhisky.se (https://www.tjederswhisky.se)

Hallongrottor, framtidens whisky och Doig ventilators! Här ägnas ingen tid åt tramsigt tillbakablickande, utan vi firar ett år med ett fullmatat avsnitt. Vidare: NDP mot oberoende buteljerare och ett besök på Ardnahoe! Grattis allihopa! Vad var det i glaset såhär på ettårsjubileet? Mathias hade Tamdhu batch strength batch nummer 1. Numera är det batch 4 som finns på Systembolaget: https://www.systembolaget.se/produkt/sprit/tamdhu-4062801/ Jeroen hade High Coast Berg: https://www.systembolaget.se/produkt/sprit/high-coast-8237502/ David hade denna Craigellachie 1997: https://www.whiskybase.com/whiskies/whisky/122848/craigellachie-1997-gm NDP och oberoende buteljerare Lite om NDP från Chuck Cowdery med flera: http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2013/05/a-modest-proposal-for-solving-ndp.html http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-rational-way-to-regard-ndp-whiskeys.html https://www.fredminnick.com/2016/05/20/sourced-whiskey-now/ https://www.reddit.com/r/bourbon/comments/2uuprd/confusionaboutndps/ https://www.straightbourbon.com/community/topic/22824-how-do-we-tell-what-is-ndp-crap/ Det där med Potemkin distilleries: http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2010/02/potemkin-craft-distilleries.html http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2014/09/we-pause-to-collect-our-thoughts-about.html Rock Oyster och Timorous Beastie är förresten inte alls från Hunter Laing utan från Douglas Laing. Kommande destillerier – vart är vi på väg…? Några destillerier som David räknade upp: Torabhaig: https://www.torabhaig.com/ Nc'nean: https://ncnean.com/ Isle of Raasay: https://raasaydistillery.com/ Lakes lyckades inte alls sälja flaska 001 för 7–8000 spänn som David höftade. Den gick för 7900 pund. Tro mig när jag likt Nostradamus profetiskt påstår att ägaren aldrig kommer att kunna sälja den flaskan utan att gå ordentligt med förlust. https://whiskyauctioneer.com/lakes-genesis-inaugural-whisky-auction?s=60587fc4a66c3 Det där med en blivande whisky loch har David resonerat lite om här: http://tjederswhisky.se/nar-whiskymarknaden-kraschar/ Ett destilleri David tror på är Ardnamurchan: https://www.adelphidistillery.com/ Bild av Isle of Raasay, flaskan, finns här om du kan fixa bild Jeroen: https://www.thespiritsbusiness.com/2020/11/isle-of-raasay-unveils-inaugural-whisky/ Doig ventillators https://scotchwhisky.com/magazine/opinion-debate/the-way-i-see-it/9504/why-distilleries-have-cupolas-not-pagodas/ https://scotchwhisky.com/magazine/whisky-heroes/7007/whisky-heroes-charles-doig/ Ardnahoe Hemsida: https://ardnahoedistillery.com/ Grönt ljus för byggandet gavs tydligen 2016: https://scotchwhisky.com/magazine/latest-news/11126/islay-s-ardnahoe-distillery-gets-green-light/ Officiellt öppnade man 2019 men produktionen drog igång 2018: https://scotchwhisky.com/magazine/latest-news/25295/ardnahoe-whisky-distillery-opens-on-islay/ https://foodanddrink.scotsman.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Dave-Broom-Alasdair-Day-with-the-first-cask-credit-Scott-Mooney-5-750x400.jpg Här når du oss: En trea whisky på Facebook (https://ww.facebook.com/entreawhisky) Maila till oss på hej@entreawhisky.se Davids blogg tjederswhisky.se (https://www.tjederswhisky.se)

Episode 31 features Southern Comfort. A whiskey based, fruit and spiced liqueur, it is bottled at 35% ABV, or 70 proof. Enjoy this episode with some Southern Comfort straight, on the rocks, or substituted for whiskey in your favorite cocktail! Southern Comfort's official website: https://southerncomfort.com Brief Historical Timeline: 1874 - Invented in New Orleans at McCauley's Tavern by Martin Wilkes Heron 1885 - Potentially part of the New Orleans Cotton & Industrial Exposition when the original concoction was renamed to Southern Comfort 1889 - Heron moves to Memphis, Tennessee and begins bottling Southern Comfort 1904 - Rumored to have won a gold medal at the World's Fair in St. Louis 1939 - The Scarlett O'Hara cocktail was introduced 1960s - Janis Joplin is often photographed with a bottle 1979 - Brown-Forman, a US conglomerate in distilled spirits business, buys Southern Comfort 2010 - The antebellum mansion, a depiction of the Woodland Plantation shown on the label is removed 2011 - The first brand extension begins with a lime and a cherry flavored version 2016 - The Sazerac Company purchases Southern Comfort from Brown-Forman along with Tuaca as part of a $543.5 million deal 2017 - Sazerac puts the whiskey back into Southern Comfort Key Cocktails: Think of Southern Comfort as if it were a whiskey for mixing in cocktails! Here's a Southern Comfort cocktail I learned in bartending school: Alabama Slammer: 1 1/2 oz Southern Comfort 3/4 oz Amaretto 3/4 oz Sloe Gin 2 oz Orange Juice Build over ice and garnish with an orange wheel, a cherry, or whatever citrus fruit you may have handy! References: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Comfort (Wikipedia article on Southern Comfort) http://www.cocktailtimes.com/history/southern_comfort.shtml (Cocktail Times article on Southern Comfort history) https://www.liquor.com/articles/southern-comfort/ (Liquor.com article on Southern Comfort) https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/08/dining/southern-comfort-whiskey.html (NY Times article on whiskey returning to the recipe) http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2013/04/what-is-southern-comfort-anyway.html (Chuck Cowdery's blog post on ingredients) https://www.huffpost.com/entry/southern-comfort-soco_n_5958814 (Huffington Post article on Southern Comfort) Contact Information: Official show website is: https://www.liquorandliqueurconnoisseur.com/ (www.liquorandliqueurconnoisseur.com) Join my mailing list: http://eepurl.com/hfyhHf (http://eepurl.com/hfyhHf) Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liquorandliqueurconnoisseur (https://www.facebook.com/liquorandliqueurconnoisseur) Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/LiquorandLiqueurConnoisseur/ (https://www.instagram.com/LiquorandLiqueurConnoisseur/) Twitter: @LLConnoisseur

A shared article about the rise of rye whiskey written by Chuck Cowdery. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/bourbonandbranch/support

On this episode, we discuss two topics that are top of mind. First, is the Coronavirus and how it's impacting the bourbon industry. Then we take a look at the hype and hysteria that surrounds Blanton's. We dive into the recent news of Blanton's Gold making its way to the US and if we think $120 SRP is a deal you should jump on. You will hear a new voice for a few minutes and that is Aaron Goldfarb. You may have seen his work on various publications around the web. He wasn’t able to stay on due to some technical difficulties, but we hope to have him on again soon. Show Partners: The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit. Barrell Craft Spirits has a national single barrel program. Ask your local retailer or bourbon club about selecting your own private barrel. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: Barrel Shortage: https://www.thedailybeast.com/is-there-a-bourbon-barrel-shortage-on-the-horizon This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about taxes. What are distilleries doing for coronavirus? History of Blanton's. How did Blanton's become so popular? Will limiting the purchases of allocated items work? Why don't distilleries use technology to manage this problem? Blanton's Gold coming to the US. Is it because of tariffs? Are they taking away from the European allocation? How can you make more product with only one warehouse? Will quality suffer with increased production? What other companies have a similar strategy to Blanton's? What do you think of the price point? Will Straight from the Barrel ever come to the U.S.? Thanks to Blake from bourbonr.com, Jordan from BreakingBourbon.com , Brian from sippncorn.com, and Aaron Goldfarb for joining. 0:00 Have you ever thought about a career in the whiskey industry? I'm not talking about being the next master distiller. But if you want a leg up on the competition, you need to take a look at the distilled spirits business certificate from the University of Louisville. This six course program will prepare you for the business side of the spirits industry like finance, marketing and operations. This is 100% online, meaning that you can access the classes at anytime, anywhere. So what are you waiting for? all that's required is a bachelor's degree, go to U of l.me. Slash bourbon pursuit. 0:35 So if you think back in the 1980s it was a bleak period for bourbon. 0:39 Thanks, thanks, Ryan. 0:43 Is poppin bottles they don't their shit what's going on around here? I'm listening really. I thought it was a good timing. 1:01 This is Episode 245 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your hosts Kenny. We've got a lot of news to cover. So let's hit it. Cova 19 are the corona virus is hitting everyone extremely hard. Now, I'm not sure why people are stocking up on toilet paper like they don't plan on leaving the bathroom anytime soon. But I'm sure most of us have enough bourbon to get us through this time. At this point, every major distillery has shut down tours. So if you had plans to visit the bourbon trail, please make sure you do your research before coming to see what is and what is not open. likely it's going to be nothing because even at this time, all bars and restaurants in the city of Louisville are admitted to shut down in person patrons. And in more coronavirus news. We've talked about this before about one of the benefits of having a state run liquor is that the product is always sold at SRP. Well, who could have predicted this but Pennsylvania one of those states where all spirits are government sanctioned and controlled have closed 2:00 All liquor stores in the state in definitely on Tuesday this past week. This also includes all online orders. So that means the entire state of Pennsylvania has literally zero access to bourbon. I guess after all this time we call them bourbon bunkers for a reason. 2:17 In a shocking vote, a bill is passed by the House licensing and occupations committee that allows Kentucky residents to get alcohol shipped to their door, but get this directly from the producer and wait for it without going through a distributor or retailer. This is a huge modernization and reform that could lead to a larger domino effect across the nation. Now this bill would require alcohol shipments meet very clearly labeled and an ID check and signature upon delivery. The producer would still have to pay the excise tax on all inbound shipments coming to Kentucky. However, retailers testified in front of the committee to express concerns about how the bill would negatively impact their businesses because people would be able to 3:00 for alcohol from their homes, and have it shipped to their door instead of going to the local retailer. In my head, I'm thinking, Well, yeah, that's kind of the whole point, right? However, that didn't matter. And now this amended House Bill 415 is going to the full house. We're going to keep you updated as this progresses. Is there a barrel shortage on the horizon? Well, Lou Bryson over the Daily Beast wrote an article where he interviews everyone from Cooper's to loggers and Miller's themselves. The loggers fear a shortage of white oak while the Cooper's really don't. Wood scientists see wetter conditions now than they have in previous years. And the increased deer populations actually eating acorns, which means less trees, and at this time, there's no plan to actually manage oak populations so it could lead to more maple and pure white oaks. However, independent Steve company says that they are coming off to rainy years where prices for logs were high, but now they see plenty of oak across 20 different states. Brown Forman cooperage says that they see more white oak now. 4:00 They have in the past 40 years, and the industry is doing better sustainability by harvesting oak at the right time to allow newer growth to form loosens up the pose talking about the coop urges only using about 2% of the hardwood industry. But he reflected upon his time spent with the logger. And he said that there is a lot of oak out there, but it's actually impossible to mill it because there's no Mills around and it's hard to get it out of the forest as well. So bourbon is gonna continue to be produced, but we'll have to see what the future entails. For the barrels themselves. You can read this story over the daily beast with the link in our show notes. Can bourbon be made in US territories like Puerto Rico and Guam? Well, Josh Peters over at the whiskey jug took this question to the TTB regulations division to see if it actually still would be legally called bourbon. Sure enough, they confirmed it that bourbon whiskey can be produced in Puerto Rico and Guam with reference to 27 CFR five dot 11 where the USA is defined 5:00 As the United States, the several states and territories and the District of Columbia, and the term state includes a territory and the District of Columbia, and the term territory means the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico. So there you have it. 5:15 Booker's bourbon batch 2020 dash one also known as Granny's batch will be released at 63.2% ABV or 126.4 proof. It is named after the sixth generation master distiller Booker knows mom, Margaret beam note. Although she never worked in the bourbon business herself, she certainly played an important role in keeping the bourbon family tradition alive, carrying the legacy on from the fifth to the sixth generation. She was very close with her oldest son Booker, who was instrumental in getting him his first job at the distillery where he would eventually go to become the master distiller. This bourbon is be released at six years, four months and 21 days in age. It would be available sometime around this month for around $90 for real 6:00 is setting aside six barrels to be chosen for and exclusively sold to the four roses mellow moments members. mellow moments is a special club organized by four roses that allows members of the general public to be a part of special gatherings, tastings. And you can stay up to date on for roses news. Plus get some cool trinkets sent in the mail every once in a while. new members can apply at select times during the year when the window opens, and the window to join when that membership does open is only for a handful of minutes so you better at quick. You can see their website for more details at mellow moments club.com. Now some pursuit series news episodes 22 and 23 are now available on sale box comm so if you're looking to get some killer bourbon shipped to your door during this time, head on over there and get stocked up. Episode 23 I'm super excited about because it's our oldest release ever at 15 years old. 6:57 Now today's show, we talk about two things 7:00 Things that are top of mind. First, it's that Corona virus, we had to talk about it. But we decided to change topics up a little bit because you've been hearing all about it on the news. So we got to kind of break away from it. And what are the bourbon is out there that can be just as argumentative. It's got to be bland. So we take the whole entire episode and talk about it. We take a look at the hype and the hysteria that surrounds it. we dive into the recent news of Blanton's gold making its way to the US and it do we think of $120 SRP, there's a deal that you should be jumping on. You're also going to hear a new voice for a few minutes when we start this. And that's Aaron Goldfarb. Now, you may have seen his work on various publications around the web, but due to some technical difficulties, he wasn't able to stay on for the entire podcast, but we hope to have him on again once in the future. All right, it's show time. Here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich, with above the char, and remember, Go wash your hands. 7:58 Hey everyone, Joe here again. 8:00 I know I talk a lot about blending here. But we also have a national single barrel program, ask you a local retailer or bourbon club about selecting your own private barrel. Find out more at barrel bourbon calm. 8:12 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char, death and taxes. So those are the two things that we are guaranteed in life to have to do taxes. April 15 comes around and every year I'm like son of beep, beep beep, had a night not remember to put all this together. And every year from a business perspective, I tell myself, I'm going to do a better job of keeping my books. And I never do. I never do I just focus on what I do. And then toward the end of the year, I rush and do all my books and well, I'm a procrastinator, if you will when it comes to the accounting side of my world. I need to get better at it. I will. But you know what, at least I don't have to pay 60 to 80% 9:00 Have taxes on everything that I do. And that, my friends is what Kentucky distillers have to pay about 60% of every bottle of bourbon that you buy, if you tally up all of the 60% of that goes to taxes. What's interesting about this is that Kentucky bourbon gets taxed six to six different times off the still in the barrel in the case in the bottom, and then the consumers pay a sales tax and in Kentucky, they have to pay a wholesale tax as well. So you have all these different taxes that they have to pay, that leads to leads to basically more more and more money that has to go to the government just for them to produce whiskey. Now, here's what's messed really, really messed up is that the distillers don't mind paying the taxes necessarily. They actually look at it as like hey, you know what? 10:00 This is not necessarily a bad thing. All that money a lot of that money gets earmarked to go to roads and schools of Kentucky. So like in Anderson County, you drive through there, and you see the nice roads and schools. Those were basically built by wild turkey and for roses, which puts a lot of money into that government infrastructure. Also Kentucky bourbon, the taxes are specifically earmarked for education. I think a couple years ago, when when things started, you know riling up with the teachers here, it became public that bourbon pumped $30 million into the education system. So I've always said like, if you want to, if you want to improve the Kentucky education system, buy more Kentucky bourbon. In fact, when you buy Kentucky bourbon no matter where you are, you are actually helping the roads, the schools, the children, the teachers, you're helping our entire state. So thank you 11:00 Because we have pretty nice roads out in the rural areas because people buy a lot of bourbon. But here's another fun fact, it wasn't until 2011 that the distillers were even allowed to write off their, the fact that they were paying these taxes, they would have to wait too until they bottled it and put it in the market before they could write off the expense of the the out of alarm tax that they were facing. So American whiskey has all these weird, awkward tax laws, that every time I start complaining about having to do taxes or do my books, I kind of look at myself in the mirror and say, Well, at least I'm not a distiller. So remember that this year, as you're going to put your taxes together, however you do it. At least you're not having to do 60 to 80% on the taxes and you get to write everything off when it's time to write it off. And that's this week's above 12:00 The char Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram, until next week, cheers 12:11 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon Kinney and Fred here tonight people's champ isn't able to make it because of Corona virus things that are happening. So we'll go ahead and, you know, we'll send our best wishes to Ryan, he doesn't have a Corona virus. I don't want to make that make that clear. The way I said that probably sounded like really dire. No, he's actually trying to do some things for his for his job and set up daycare because we've got a lot of things happening where schools can be shut down for the next few weeks here in Kentucky. So he's got to make sure that he's taking care of his employees tonight. So we're gonna miss Ryan tonight, but we will go on without him. So before we kind of introduce everybody here, I kind of want to talk to Fred Are you are you Doomsday prepared? You guys got enough bourbon and toilet paper to get you through for the next month? Well, you know, 13:00 Like today was you know, I wasn't supposed to be on today because I'm supposed to be in San Francisco for the competition but last minute 13:08 you know we had a scare ourselves and my wife she's the on the committee for like getting the Louisville VA hospital prepared for the coronavirus. So we've been getting prepared I think for the last three months in fact, we we thought there's a tornado coming. Yeah, there might be a tornado coming. So we had a little tornado drill with a family. We all went down to the basement and I was really proud. We brought chips and toilet paper and you know, the baby had something to play with. So we got this. You Baby could play with toilet paper too. Well, he went he went down there and he went straight for the bourbon. I'm like, this is my kid. 13:48 It's in the DNA. Yeah. Alright, so let's go ahead. Let's go around the horn real quick. And but first before we hit some of our regulars, I want to introduce somebody that's new to the podcast and we have a special 14:00 And tonight so Aaron Goldfarb, who you will have probably seen from a lot of articles out there online. So Aaron, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me even though I don't know how to use a computer apparently so 14:14 it's okay. Well let it slide this time. We'll we'll do some tech support next time when you do calling a pinch hitter here. Absolutely. So just kind of give everybody a quick recap or kind of summary of like, who you are, where you write and everything like that. Yeah, I'm a, you know, accidentally fell into becoming a blues writer. I write a lot of whiskey articles, but I write cocktail articles, beer articles and food articles for places like Esquire punch, fine pair whiskey advocate, bourbon, plus my favorite place to write. 14:48 I've written a few books to hacking whiskey, most notably for your audience. Gather around cocktails was my most recent book and 14:57 just learned that my kid has been 15:00 next two weeks off school. So I think this is the end of my writing career for a while, at least. 15:05 We're all trying to set up some sort of daycares at home or, I don't know, maybe we should just like go out and like, buy the like 5000 piece puzzles off of Amazon and be like, here you go. This is your next two weeks. Exactly. 15:18 Alright, so, Blake, how you doing tonight? Doing well? Yeah, always good to be back. Just straight into my intro. I feel like we're kind of changing things up. So, you know, do I give the regular Hey, I'm Blake from bourbon or do I just talk about coronavirus or, I mean, you can talk about what's happened in your area. I mean, it's ya know, our craziness happening. No, it's well, I had the flu last week. So I feel like I was out and wasn't the corona virus was just the flu. So we're not we're not born. Yeah, yeah, I got tested. I got tested. I tested positive for the flu. So I decided, I guess I didn't test negative for Corona. But there's been no cases in Florida that I'm aware of. But no, it's just it's crazy. I mean, 16:00 The TPC, that's a huge thing in this area. And so they actually announced today that they're suspending all all fans from the tournament. And you know, this golf tournament will bring in over 100,000 people to come and watch it. So it was pretty disappointing. You know, I was supposed to be 16:21 I was supposed to be going out to a tournament with my son tomorrow. So that's a little disappointing. And it's spring break for us. And as you can see, my daughter's like in the background. So they're talking about extending spring break here as well. 16:39 But yeah, yeah, this should be interesting. I don't know. I'm, I'm one who, I just think you've got like a 1% chance of actually hitting and being devastated. So I'm like, I'll just be unprepared and 99% of the time, I'd be correct. So it's just that 1% gets me But no, so 17:00 lost interest for the longest episode we're about to get into. 17:04 You're right on point there. So So Jordan, what's happening? You're part of the world. Well, the Quran hasn't been declared so Western Eastern pa right. There's a bunch of cases nothing in Pittsburgh. So Pittsburgh's I wouldn't say naive, but like right around today was the first time a little bit of unease and unsettledness kind of kicked in. Right? And now that the NHL canceled the penguins, right, people are super upset. But I'm sure we'll be seeing cases pop up super soon. I don't really even know if they're testing or if they have test kits here in Pittsburgh yet so I'm sure there's cases that we don't know about. So I don't know. Thankfully, it's a state run liquor system. So there's tons of tons of bottles still on the shelves. I think people want to buy that one. But it's there slowly. And Brian in our part of the world Yeah, you're part of the world. Thanks for having me again, Brian with sipping corn Find me a bourbon justice calm. And I my only effect so far is tonight. Instead of doing this, I was going to be 18:00 Drinking an Evan Williams 23 year old old fish Gen 15 in the in the 101 12 year Evan Williams with a client and client had travel restrictions and wasn't supposed to go anywhere and so got my thing cancelled so now it's personal because it kept me from ever. But other than that, it's it's hasn't really affected me. I've got my daughter home from Dayton. They kick them out early. They won't be going back 18:28 to just I've got my bourbon Splott I'll be alright. And at one point for Aaron Aaron, I have to tell you this before I forget I tried to do from hacking whiskey the the bacon infused bourbon. It was probably the biggest flop that I have ever created in my life. I will need to talk offline. I need to know the secret because theoretically, everything about that I should just love and I ruined both urban and bacon doing. That's funny. I always tell people it sounds harder to do. 19:00 Fat washing that it is and it's almost impossible to screw up. But I guess 19:06 I've actually had a very similar experience, Brian, so I have a few minutes. You don't you want to slowly render the bacon made the mistake of like, crispy and I think just the brightness came through so that's what I yeah, yeah. Can't get black. Yeah, absolutely no Okay, good bacon pursuit come and say, 19:29 Hey, I'd go for I'd listen to that it sounds delicious peppercorn all over. So Fred, you've been kind of close to this, because I know at least with the corona stuff, you've been actually reaching out for distilleries kind of give us the latest on what's been happening with what the Steelers are doing for preparing for this? Well, I mean, you ask them personally, a lot of them will say it's all bullshit. And then when it comes to like a corporate message, they'll come out and say, 19:56 well, we're closing visitations starting 20:00 Monday so beam has closed visitations for you know Maker's Mark and the other properties. Starting on Monday, 20:11 brown Forman announced the closures of their Kentucky facilities for visitations on Sunday. And jack daniels on Monday. New rep has made similar announcements I have not heard yet back from heaven Hill. I've reached out to them a couple times. I've not heard back from them yet. Interestingly, places like the smaller distillers seem to be the ones that are kind of like, you know what, we're still doing tours like NB Rolen 20:40 in Western Kentucky was very proud to say that, you know what, we're still doing this. And, you know, so a lot of them have these kinds of plans in place, or for the visitor side, and they're all continuing production. I think production is like I think that's one of the 21:00 The hardest questions answers like what if one of the workers gets test test positive? what's what's the protocol? They're like? I mean, I really don't know what the manufacturing protocol is for when you have a pandemic and someone tests positive for something that gets out into the market. You know, do you have a recall? I mean, 21:19 I mean, those are the kinds of questions that they have to be taking. But at the same time, the Kentucky distillers association is meeting with the governor's office who has been meeting with the vice president. So I mean, we're like three degrees away from, you know, the highest office in the land here, when it comes to what can affect the Kentucky distilleries. So I'm not a I'm not an expert. And I'm not going to claim to be but from what I understand is that this is all basically through respiratory and oral is kind of how it gets transferred really easily. So unless people were like spitting in the mash tubs, I'm not too sure exactly. Even that it's probably because he's in a hallway. Yeah, and so I'm not too sure. Honestly, if even if 22:00 worker does, you know, come in and it actually is affected. I think the only thing that it might actually affect is just the production. Probably just send everybody home do shut down production for X amount of days, come back, do a deep clean, you know, go back, go back to work. Yeah, but there is this whole thing where you have to 22:19 the government's issue, like, where people had it, what would what they touched where they went, you know, I was, you know, I was somewhere and got it in and someone was there the day after me and I got an email about it. And, you know, that was kind of one of the personal scare for me, but, you know, I don't know, like, if somebody works in a factory, you know, does the government then require the that factory to issue a statement to its consumers, and I just don't know it. There's not really a precedent for any of this. 22:54 It's very, very scary. And I think it's more so right as much as they might want to keep many 23:00 fracturing right there just one part of the manufacturing puzzle. So if a farmer who distills the grains and drops them off, right not to sales, I'm sorry for the farmer harvests the grains and drops them off for the trucking company, he drops them off, or they can't drop them off because they have the colonel virus. Got any random ash, you're not doing much, right? Same with barrel, stuff like that. So I think it goes the whole or friends point, maybe you don't have to notify consumers, but then you got to notify your whole manufacturing chain, right. And maybe folks then don't want to drop off supplies because they're afraid that they're going to catch it for their employees. So I think it's just not as simple as you know, the virus doesn't survive much longer. You know, once it's out of somebody's system in the air wasn't just something for more than a few hours. So consumers should be safe, but it's more How does it impact everyone they interact with up and down the whole supply chain? Yeah, I think probably the biggest issue that's really is facing right now is the tourism aspect, which has been really it's been what the industry has been hanging his hat on, you know, with the with the rise of these like, the trade wars, you know, 24:00 This was the one thing that everyone said, Well, we still got like, domestic growth and we got tourism. And so you know, this is you take out the more than 2 million people coming here to visit Kentucky distilleries. I mean, my god there, there are talks in town about impacting the derby. I mean, I can't even imagine not having the derby. Brian, can you? I mean, I just can't I can't, I can't envision it. Now. I heard that today, too. They're talking about maybe postponing and it's, you know, they're still looking at it. No decisions made yet but that's, it's just crazy talk. I mean, let's face it, Churchill. I mean, there'll be like, I just bet from home. Oh, 24:44 yeah. Where's that from all right, no, fancy sign up for twin spires club and they'll give you you know, $50 free or whatever, and they'll be laughing all the way to the bank. 24:56 The other the other component of this, that 25:00 should be getting Blake excited, actually because a sale box is that this is going to be one of the moments where we see an enormous increase of shipments and people don't want to get out of their house. So they're not going to go to a liquor store. What are they gonna do? They're gonna buy, like, going to visit seal box calm or wherever. And 25:25 go Fred. Yeah. 25:29 It's 40 like 40 25:33 but uh, you know, that's that's what's going to happen. Is there going to get deliveries? I mean, we're all right. We're getting deliveries from, from Whole Foods and Kroger right now. So it's crazy. Yeah, I think there was somebody had actually talked about on our discord chat a little bit earlier through Patreon. And they were saying, Well, what happens if Corona gets spread into Amazon into these delivery services? And it was like, yeah, it's 26:00 It's a true concern. The other part of this is thank god they're heavily automated, right? There's robots that basically pack those boxes for everybody. But when someone sneezes on a robot, 26:11 what 26:14 are they ended to? Whatever this was all just a way for the robots to take control, actually run a virus. I'm with you on that. Now. I mean, everyone's talking about walking dead. But what if this is really Terminator about to happen? 26:29 They planted the seed. 26:32 conspiracies, Fred. What? 26:35 Surprise now pushing back in conspiracies speaking of vodka conspiracy, Jordan was today's email like a backhanded compliment to 26:44 Tito's yesterday What are we taught Hey, hold on. Let's let's set the stage here because I have no idea what 26:51 newsletter right for whiskey Wednesday, I went out and it was a PSA on how to make your own hand sanitizer. So he did give Tito's the nod and the fact that they are 27:00 aggressively letting consumers know whenever they tweet or interact with them on social media that no you cannot use Tito's for hand sanitizer because it's not 60% alcohol right so we did harm we do give them credit on that one right but I mean, let's be real if you're going to use hand sanitizer and you must use bourbon we prefer you drink it, but at least use 120 proof bourbon to do something right. But there's a comment in there too. Tito's about like, well, at least they're clearing some of the facts up and 27:27 crafted you know, made in Texas kinda 27:31 just made sure wasn't reading into it. But once again vodka fails. I mean, you look at it it's like everyone's like starting to champion it for something that it can make me be valuable for and again even do handsome. 27:46 That's that's a perfect way to end this. I don't really talk about coronavirus anymore, do you? Oh, yeah. No, no, no, that was much hysteria. Yeah, that was a nine. All right, good. So let's move on to the kind of the meat of the show here. Let's Shall we 28:00 Wait for Blake to open his bottle here because we can all hear it all that loud. 28:06 He had the mute control to hear it immediately. It's like gay. There we go. I'll mute him. Alright, perfect. 28:15 before the show started, you know, Aaron, you would think 42 times into this he would have figured it out. 28:23 But this is this is just like it's everything about get sanctioned. Yeah, it's it's either that his Wi Fi dies. I mean, it's, it keeps going. So, Alright, so let's kind of get into the meat of the show. Because the one thing that we've all kind of seen is just the hysteria that is surrounded Blanton's. And to kind of just give a little bit of background and context there is a great article that was posted by Chuck Cowdery back in 2013. And he gave a history of bland so I'm just gonna go ahead and just take like a minute or two just to read this just so everybody kind of gets up to speed on it because I know we've had people requests 29:00 Like, Hey, why don't you do an episode on the history of blends? Come to find out. There's probably not a whole lot that we could do a whole episode about. So this is gonna be it right here. So if you think back in the 1980s it was a bleak period for bourbon. thankthank Ryan 29:18 is poppin bottles they don't. They're shit what's going on around here? I'm listening Really? I thought it was a good timing. See, Aaron? This is what I'm talking about. Nobody, nobody's learned the proper or how to pour their PR, or I've got my mute button. I'll use camera but I pre poured everything and sure your next go. I've already popped a bottle or two on the show. So I think we're good. All right. I think everybody's got their bottle pops out of the way. Alright, so in the 90 or sorry, in the 80s. sales were down. inventories were high profits were under intense pressure and whiskey assets were changing hands. Most large producers were no longer independent. Instead they were part of conglomerates and with a portfolio of a household names back then. 30:00 Back then F Ross Johnson was the powerful CEO of Nabisco. Nabisco had a subsidiary called standard brands that included fleshman distilling. 30 Falk was the CEO of Fleischmanns and Bob Brandt and this guest Moran discuss my I'm gonna screw that up was the president. In 1983, Johnson decided to sell standard brands to Grand Metropolitan. A few years later, green Metro Metropolitan merged with Guinness to form biagio. Green Metropolitan already had a thriving drinks business that included JMP scotch and Smirnoff vodka, assuming they would be replaced after the sale folk and burnt Miranda's kiss. I know that's bad, resigned and started to start their own company. fulke was previously an executive with schenley. So he approached Muslim reckless, whose conglomerate own schenley about selling some assets Falk and Baranski has originally tried to acquire old charter, but reckless always needed money, so he agreed to sell ancient age bourbon brand and the distillery that produced 31:00 It then it was called the Albert B Blanton distillery. Today's Buffalo Trace folk and Baranski is called the new company h International. As the name suggests, they believe Bourbons future was outside of the US. One of the first moves was to enlist the master distiller at the time Elmer T. Lee with the creation of Blanton's single barrel bourbon to appeal to the Japanese market, but with multiple extensions in Japan and the US in 1991, fulke and Burns has sold 22 and a half percent interest in Asia international to Japan's to current shoes a with the right of first refusal to purchase the remaining shares in 1992, Fulk and Burns has sold their shares to Tucker for $20 million to car immediately sold the distillery to Sazerac but retain the corporate entity and brand trademark. Today Sazerac still owns Buffalo Trace and Buffalo Trace still produces all the whiskey for agent age, Blanton's and other age international products and brands using Nashville number two, which is also being used for Bourbons like Rock Hill farms as well. 32:00 Well, Chris Phalke commented on the article, and he said that that was his father ferdie had passed away from cancer in 2000. But Blanton's was the original super premium brand. And he said he can remember watching him draw the packaging idea on a napkin back in 1983. So follow all of that. Very. So. Yeah, I'd like to add, I'd like to add to that, because this is something that gets really lost in the history of that brand. And I would argue we could have a whole show on the history of it. 32:31 But in the 90s, basically, when the Albert Blanton was was head of the distillery he used to, 32:42 he used to take people out, and he used to pick barrels for him. And then he would actually put that into the Kentucky retail market, effectively making it like a single barrel asset, but they weren't really calling him single barrels back then. And so people you know, Sazerac were always you to use 33:00 It in their marketing that it was the first commercially available single barrel that often got pushback by people. But indeed, it was, but that brand had a huge impact on the world. You know, in my book bourbon I wrote about like how important it was for Japan and how it kind of opened that market up. Another thing that Blanton's did that was really important is it pissed off Maker's Mark and it started making fun of Maker's Mark and advertisements for the saying like, Oh, you have to talk about your wax because your whiskey isn't any good. So they kind of like you know, played with Maker's Mark in their own game and they went back and fourth. And so they had like this state, but blends created this statewide tasting competition, in which they selected tasers and Lexington and Louisville to to have a taste up between makers and blends. Blanton's one Lexington and makers one Louisville so plans is a really really important brand. 34:00 The return of bourbon and this Return of the the introduction of the gold. Blanton's is like For God's sake, it's about time. You know, it's about I want to want to get to that, because that's a that's a big part of today's show. But what I want to do is I kind of want to just trace this back about two years. And I want anybody that has a theory on why the hell did Blanton's just skyrocket in popularity? I know that we've seen it on some TV shows and everything like that, but was there was there something that happened that I missed that all of a sudden this round bottle the horse on top just just went crazy? I have a theory. So I want to jump in, but I guess I will. So I think it's and I wish I had notes because I talked to Chris Comstock about this the other day about 35:00 There's supply the supplies, not 35:04 the supplies, basically, I think it's like five x of what it was a few years ago, is what they're producing now. So it's not nearly as bad as people think. But in my opinion, what started to happen was a lot of these distributors in the store started seeing what was happening with Pappy and you know, the antique collection. And so they started allocating on the distribution side. So then instead of stores just like yeah, or whenever you want, they'd say, Oh, we can only give you two bottles. Well, then the stores start telling the customers Hey, look, I'm only getting two bottles of this. It's at that price point that makes it you know, the high end the bottles cool, it's it's, it tastes good. And so then as you know, that started building, you go into a store and see two bottles, you grab them and then there's an empty shelf. So then the I think the hype just started building and scarcity sells. So now every time people see it on the 36:00 shelf, it's like, oh, I've got to grab as many bottles as I can find or as I can get, because who knows when I'll see it again. 36:07 And that all seems to be happening happening over the last two to three years. I tell the story of that blanes was actually the first barrel pick I ever did for bourbon er, and that was back in 2015. And I remember the the retailer marked it up to I think it was $64. And I lost, you know, so many people saying that they're not going to work with a retailer that was trying to gouge like, I bought five cases, I had a few friends buy a bunch of cases. And now if I got a Blaine's barrel, you know, it'll be gone in a day and you could probably sell for 100 bucks a bottle or something crazy like that. But I still think it's all kind of like a an artificial demand or artificial shortage created by that middle tier. But that's just my opinion. I think it also has to do with the fact that right, so around that time, and don't get me wrong. We've been fans of Blanton's I think back in 2014 we caught 37:00 Call it out on the site that we weren't sure why people were overlooking up. But then is Buffalo Trace in general, right? So all their Bourbons started becoming more known to folks people started realizing Oh, pet Van Winkle comes from Buffalo Trace. Oh BTC What's that? Okay. And then Elmer got really big, right? And then others started getting big. So especially if they wanted a single barrel, right, they go in Hey, can I get an armor? Oh, you can't get an armor. But look at this cool bottle. You get this little horse top or his little wax on little bags, and I'm just finding the box. Why don't you go for that instead? Right? And it was just one of the it's just one of those things where people just want the next thing right so all right, so I can't get any other Buffalo Trace product. What else you got? You got plans, you can get that pretty easy. I'll take one of those. Right and then people start doing a little research, especially if people are really into bourbon. They realize that there's Blanton's gold, there's plans straight from the barrel, which used to be again, easy to find. So two years ago, it was what around two years ago I think master mouth stop shipping right and a lot of store shop stopped shipping from over in Europe. And it was just that snowball effect, right? There's no rhyme or reason to a lot of stuff. It's just people like to hoard people like to know what's cool. 38:00 Blanton's cannon right? Everyone, I'm sure has friends who asks, What should I buy in the store used to be really simple to say, Oh, just pick up a bottle of blends. It's great bourbon, reasonably priced. Just go for it. Right. I still say that. And then I catch myself going, except you're not gonna be able to find anymore, which stinks. But I think a lot of it is just that snowball effect that took place with consumers, especially around Buffalo Trace products. You brought up something very important. Jordan, as you brought up, Elmer T. Lee, and I've been thinking about this a lot since Kenny posed the question to us before the show about why did planes take off and I remember specifically after Elmer died, you could not find a martini you could not find it. And the one bottle that everybody recommended after that, because it was accessible was Blanton's, you know, it was a Rock Hill farms. It was always Blanton's was the was the bourbon that people recommended after Elmer T. Lee passed away. There couldn't be a more fitting bourbon to recommend since that was the 39:00 One that he brought, you know, he brought to life. And, you know, Elmer kinda gets forgotten. You know, Elmer doesn't get talked about as much as you know, some of the other deceased distillers like Booker know and Parker beam. And it's a real shame because he was a Titan of a distiller and I think that he would be, you know, smiling quite happily to know that his stuff was being It was very difficult to get he wouldn't be very happy with the price gouging. But I do believe that that is when it all started was in the in the quest to find Elmer. They got Blanton's and liked it. Fred, I kind of remember a little there was a at least a couple year time period where to me it was the opposite of that. People wanted Blanton's and and Elmer was aged couple of years more than Blanton's and I couldn't figure out why people wanted Blanton's instead of Elmer. I mean they're 40:00 is a time period where it over took Elmer. And I don't know anything about the production. I don't know anything about what's being withheld. But it it to Blake's point, it sure looks that way. So there's another thing that's sort of happening right now. And that is Buffalo Trace and heaven Hill are implementing new systems where you can only purchase allocated items that haven't healed sometimes it's once a month. And in the case of Blanton's at Buffalo Trace, they're now doing this once every three months of actually scanning your driver's license and turning people away. And this is because if anybody is unaware, the line that has been growing for Blanton's at the distillery has just gotten chaotic. I'm talking like two to 300 people that are waiting at six o'clock in the morning to get a bottle of regular Blanton's at the distillery. And so, you know, Aaron, kinda want to pose this question to you and get you get you involved here. Do you think this new system has a chance to actually succeed and work 41:00 Well, I was gonna 41:03 Aaron, you're cutting out, buddy. I think we lost him. Yeah, he and Blake or Sharon schleifer. 41:10 Want to bring them on camera? Yeah. 41:15 Yeah. Try to try to drop and come back on and come back if you can like maybe plug in or something. I'm not too sure. We'll, we'll get you. We'll get you in here. 41:26 All right, so so we'll take that in a different direction. So, Blake, do you think that has an actual chance to succeed with this particular kind of system? So what's the actual system again, sorry, I was typing whatever you know. 41:43 Loud they're only allowed how many bottles like one a month or something? It's this is what happens when like the teacher calls in you and you weren't paying attention. 41:53 Helen has placed they've had an in place for like two years they haven't held where they scan your license when you buy. Like buffalo grease implemented the same 42:00 Yeah, I mean you know you think about will it did that for a while and then they had their their do not sell to lists and everything, it'll, it'll definitely slow things down but I don't know. I mean, I think that's good because 42:15 ultimately you want some bottles at the distillery whenever people come and visit you. I had this experience a few weeks ago and we're up there and a friend of mines like, man, none of these, you know, these distilleries have any bottles like I thought it'd be able to get something cool. You know, heaven Hill, at least had. I remember what we got. I think that William heaven hill there. So at least there was something but that's the hard part is you don't want just the locals to come grab everything that is available. Turn around and throw it up on Craigslist or wherever people are selling these days. We don't do that in Kentucky man. Yeah, it's never happened. Right? Yeah. But you know, so you kind of want to spread it out a little bit. So I think that'll help. Um, but you know, it's 43:00 Like anything else, people are going to do what they want to do, they're going to send their sister they're going to send their cousin they're going to send, if they really want it that bad, but overall, hopefully it kind of spreads the allocation a little bit further. And I'll say, since I'm not located in Kentucky, right, I, at least from heaven Hill standpoint, I actually appreciate that they do that now, because it seems more often than not, whenever I go down to Heaven, Hell, and I always stop by when I'm in town, these tend to have a few bottles, right? That's, I think, based on the fact that they're helping to limit people from buying them. So from that standpoint, I think it's fantastic, right, especially being somebody who's visiting Kentucky and wanting to go I make sure to stop by the distilleries and buy stuff, but now they have stuff to buy, which I'm super appreciative. Yeah, and that's actually part of the reason this was actually implemented was Freddy Johnson was on the stage with Fred at legend series recently, and he talked exactly about this that this is all because of just trying to counteract the flipping game. And if you can limit of what people can get, then you can do that. And plus, they want to 44:00 Word people that are traveling from all around the country to go and visit the distillery and they want to get something unique while they're there. And this is an opportunity to actually make that happen. It's you know, they could release a lot more bottles to 44:15 we'll get to that option. Yeah. It's a difficult it's difficult, you know, I look at it, I look at it from the perspective of like, every time, you know, they, they, the distillers, like, wish for something and then they get it. And then like, five years later, they're like, Oh, shit. Yeah, like net. Like, I remember when they were lobbying for this. They were like, begging to have special bottles. They were begging to have this attention and this FaceTime with the consumers. And now you hear them and they're like, crap, what are we going to do? You know, like now they're facing some of the same problems at their retailer partners have so a lot more headaches for them for sure. 45:00 him personally, you know, three months is, I think a little bit generous. I would have rather seen a year. Because if there's two to 300 people lining up to do this, and they're bringing their brothers, their sisters, their cousins or aunts and their uncles to get a bottle of Blanton's. Like, let's just nip this, like it's Blanton's after all right, like it is it's good whiskey. But let's let's try to let's try to curb this because I don't see a reason why people should be going this nuts over and if they have a bottle of bourbon. And I think I remember seeing a lot of comments when people announced that this system is getting put in place. They're like, Oh, like why are you gonna hurt your you know, your biggest consumers and your cheerleaders and I'm like, they make a lot of different whiskey. There's a lot of different bourbon out there on the market. Like don't pin yourself into just like that one bottle. You know like that Nashville makes a lot of different stuff, right? So like you don't you don't need to be pigeon holing yourself and it just one particular kind of whiskey for everything. 46:00 You drink? Yeah, I was at a store one time and a guy was asking the clerk for it he's like you guys got any Blanton's as a total wine and and so everyone having plantains and I was like hey man like actually they've got a Hancock single barrel pick that they've done and it was like I think seven years old or something 46:20 the exact same mash bill you know, maybe it wasn't in warehouse H or whatever it is, but pretty much the exact same thing is like I don't want that crap. I'm like, Okay, nevermind. No, I mean why bother? No, you bring up a really good point though Brian right? The whole point the whole reason they had the horse in the first place right and way back when wanted spelled lens which is cool, but to entice people to keep buying it. So then you do find people who actually you know, for multitude of reasons right and I'm not judging whatsoever who once they find something and they do want to collect it just for that purpose. I realized you can buy the stopper from Buffalo Trace itself right? But they actually didn't want to start collecting the bottles just to get the topper so not only do they like up and other like corn 47:00 I need to get all the rest of them. Right. So now their demand is well, I just don't need one or two. Now I got to find all I got to the letters, I got to fill it out. Exactly. Right. So it's it's, they've kind of created a little bit of a headache in that sense for themselves. If there was no letters on the bottle, that would definitely eliminate a little bit of that from some well, and a lot of people in the comments have said that the dump date being on every bottle, you know, how many posts have you seen, you know, oh, my kid was born or you know, oh, I'm looking for this dump date. Yeah, work on whatever they want. Yeah, whatever it is, they they want that data on there. I mean, it's it's marketing genius is what it is. It's a product of success. You know, I think Fred alluded to this a little bit of they worked really hard to make these things popular and, you know, get special releases out of the distillery. And then I don't want to say it backfire, but I think it caused them more headaches, and they probably they were thinking it would but it's a product of success. So at the end of the day, I don't think they mind it. 48:00 No no no one thing that none of these companies are doing is they're not utilizing technology you know and Kenny I'd like to get your your thoughts on this because you're the tech guy but How hard would it be for them to like create like an order and hold or some some kind of system for online to connect with a point of sale where someone could plan their trip and then come pick up a bottle I just I just feel like there's so many opportunities to alleviate these problems that they never seem to explore they they're stuck in these inundated antiquated stand in line look at an ID kind of crap. I think it's just simple ecommerce is that a lot of and I think we've touched on a lot of times, even just retailers and everybody else in general, like this type of market is is behind the curve of what we see in every other type of industry. And so if they don't take the initiative to try to figure out like, how do we get our hands in the how do we get our product into the hands of consumers faster, easier, and less friction and make them 49:00 A happy consumer. If you don't take that into account, then they're not gonna do anything about it. You know, the other thing is, is that if you look at what the SAS rack is building with blends and Buffalo Trace and everything, like, they don't really, I mean, they're gonna sell out no matter what. So do they need to go through all that extra effort to invest in an e commerce platform to invest in something where like, I don't know whether they have their own online, put your email in a database and come and pick your bottle up on this date kind of thing? I don't know if they really need to. So it kind of like I said, there's there's, it's a double edged sword from there. And you do actually so Fred, I mean, that's a great point that you make both Kenny and Fred but you do see some distilleries doing that, right. So look at new ref. Look at angels MD with their main club, right? They both do that when they have special releases come out, you can pre buy and they give you a 30 days to pick them up or X number of days to pick up. I think that's it's great. And it's also great for again, if somebody is out in town to be like, Alright, I got a month to go pick this up. I'll plant quickly. 50:00 trip around this or something like that, right? And it drives people there. And then I'm sure once they're there, they're like, Well, shit, I'm here by some other stuff, whether it's from that distillery or local store around there, whatever. But it's just great for the local economy in general. And I wish more distilleries did that. He was envies absolutely crushing their special bottles. People make events out of that. And I have never talked to one unhappy person out of there. I mean, I hear I hear so many unhappy people coming out of heaven Hill, there's so many people, unhappy people coming out of out of SAS, right. Really no one from being but I don't think anyone's necessarily going there for special releases. But the key distilleries that have special releases of all them angels envy is crushing it by far that program that they have people love it. Yep. And plus, it's an easy way for you to kind of like allocate these things online. And not only that is you basically sell it before anybody actually picks it up. So it's, it's, it's instead of like putting it out there and hoping people come like, it's all online if you make it easy and frictionless 51:00 Then you're gonna have a much better way to you don't have that kind of like cash flow in that pipeline coming into man. What if they did like bourbon futures where you could like, you know, buy like a case of Blanton's five years from now. So technically that's kind of what Bardstown bourbon company is doing. So they their barrel pick now is you pay $1,000 deposit to get it, and then which I guess not technically futures, but then you let it age as long as you want. And essentially you just pay the same price for whatever the standard bottling is whether you let it go to 10 years or you let it go six months. 51:39 Yeah, yeah, I'm familiar with that. It's just not it's not proven, but like Blanton not nearly as exciting to Yeah, I mean, that it is it is a concept for sure. But like, I mean, imagine like if you could, if you could buy a futures, Pappy 23 right now when your child is born, 52:00 or something like that. You do it in a heartbeat. Yeah. Now, right now I would nobody would want to track that accountant. Somebody put in the or Aaron put in the chats about basically that's how Bordeaux works and yeah, you know the it's not like a Pappy 23 where you're waiting 23 years but there is some time there and it is interesting to see how that whole market works and I mean, it's pretty crazy. We may get there one day, the ghosts Yes, that's the one thing that we don't that we don't have that the wine world has is like these really high level business people call negotiators who basically broker every single thing. And I think that's why angels envy so successful with that program as West Henderson is kind of like a hybrid, you know, in this world. He's such a business forward leaning mind and you know, it has his dad's DNA. Anyway. All right, I want to shift topic a little bit because this is still gonna be Blanton's, but the biggest news 53:00 That happened last week or was it two weeks ago whatever it was was the idea and the announcement of Blanton's gold coming to the US 53:11 What do you get if you mix Seattle craft, Texas heritage and Scottish know how that's to bar spirits to bar spirits traces its roots to a ranch in rural Texas run by the founder, Nathan kaisers family for six generations. Nathan grew up on the ranch with stories of relatives bootlegging moonshine, and after moving into Seattle, he wanted to keep the family tradition alive any open to bar spirits in 2012. They're very traditional distillery making everything from scratch and each day starts by milling 1000 pounds of grain. Their entire product lineup consists of only two whiskies, their moonshine, and the only bourbon made in Seattle. Both bottles are being featured in rack house whiskey clubs. Next box, rack house whiskey club is a whiskey of the Month Club. And they're on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US. 54:00 Have to offer rack house ships out to have the feature distilleries finest bottles, along with some cool merchandise in a box delivered to your door every two months. Go to a rack house whiskey club comm to check it out and try some to bar for yourself. Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. 54:21 The biggest news that happened last week or was it two weeks ago, whatever it was, was the idea and the announcement of Blanton's gold coming to the US. And for anybody that has been a bottle chaser or you've been into bourbon for a little bit. We've all known that. Blanton's gold and Blanton straight from the barrel are something that we gravitate towards because you like oh, it's higher proof and, and now we're all like oh, and it's got a shiny gold horse. So of course I want all these. As Ryan said earlier, I want the I want the ski with all the gold letters on it now. So the there's a few questions that arise with this and the first one. I'm going to 55:00 Come to his tariffs, because one thing that we've seen is that tariffs are being it's being catastrophic to the whiskey industry in regards of just it's both sides of the coin here. Now, there is the idea that people are saying, Okay, well, if we are going to have to pay tariffs, then let's go ahead and hold more whiskey back that we know that we can sell to our existing consumer base here in the US. Do you all think that this is a reaction to that? Or do you think this was planned out a little bit further in advance? And they said, You know what, we're going to just do this because we're, let's go ahead and make some more headlines. I'll go first, right. I think 100% has to do with tariffs, right? I think they are looking in real time and how to react. I think they saw a business opportunity. And they're going for it right. They don't want to have products sitting there, or they don't want to overcharge consumers, 55:55 to needlessly sell to no one in Europe, if no one's gonna be paying that price. 56:00 They saw Hey, Blanton's is hot, let's make it happen. And 100% that played into it, whether there's a little pre work behind the scenes going into it potentially. But don't get me wrong, that current tariff situation 100% played into this. I also want to mention that in the press release, they also said that this is going to be an SRP of $120 for this particular bottle too. So don't forget that. 56:21 I like to say that at the top of Buffalo Trace is probably the single smartest person in the entire spirits industry, Mark Brown. That man had this plan probably five years ago and had a rollout leading up to it. And this year is probably going to be like, like some additional Weller products, maybe a single barrel or something like that. I mean, you're going to start seeing like Buffalo Trace, kind of like, take their super premiums and dice them up into more limited edition releases. And it's it's all about getting another skew getting another press release at another company. 57:01 They they own a lot of the conversation market, they own a lot of the store they own almost all the skews that all the retailers want. And if they every time they add one, they've got another one. So they have another reason to have a meeting with a retailer they have another meeting to have a meeting. Another reason to have a meeting with a an on premise person plans goal, in my opinion, is probably just one of the actually well they're foolproof last year was the beginning of the rollout of seeing the kind of evolution of what Buffalo Trace is planning to do with their premium product. They're dicing them up gradually raising those price raising the prices up a little bit more and making them even more valuable. Yeah, and I don't know that's a it's looking at it from a marketing standpoint. Genius. Yeah. 57:57 I don't know there's there's a lot better 58:00 Values out there in my book and I just I I try to resist so much of the hype and I I like the ancient age products probably better than than their other mash bill and and other than some Weller 12 or the the B tech, William LaRue Weller the ancient age math is my favorite Mossville. 58:25 But the marketing just it rubs me the wrong way. I get it. And I wish Aaron was able to stay on because he could speak very highly to this with his experience at Esquire and some of the other more industry facing publications. I'm just telling you, man, you could just throw you could you could dangle any Weller Blanton's, even Buffalo Trace, you know outside of a Manhattan window and you'll have like 50 bro dudes chasing it down. It's the stuff is crazy. And it's genius. And congratulations to them for doing it. It's absolute genius. 59:00 But there's so much for roses and wild turkey out there that that in other brands that are so much better and so much more of a value, I just don't get it personally. So so then that then that then that that's not really a knock on them. That's basically that's our job to say, hey guys can't get this, you know, try this and i and i think Jordan does a great job of that. I think Blake does a great job of that. Kenny, you really just drink it all. So 59:30 Equal Opportunity drinker. That's right. 59:33 And so Fred, I kind of want to like take a counter argument to kind of what you said a little bit, because there was something that came up in the chat by Dave Preston. And he had mentioned that, you know, he thinks that this has to do with like, increased stock that's resulting from ramped up production. However, I kind of look at it and think like, well, maybe they're just taking and to take Jordan's side of this. Maybe they're taking away from the European allocation now and just shifting to the United States, because we've all been 1:00:00 on tours here, right. And we all know we've been in the Blanton's bottling Hall, every day you're in there. They were bottling plants, and they're doing it around the clock every single day. And it doesn't seem that they can keep up with the demand. So where is all this extra inventory coming from? If you don't think it's just like taking away from European allocation and from tariffs, if, like how to keep pumping out more product. So again, this is my opinion, this is all been planned. These are not knee jerk business people. These are very smart strategic, especially when it comes to marketing, and they happen to have great whiskey. And I just think this was a part of it. Did they change their European allocation? Hey, maybe they did, but I think this product was always planned. Maybe Maybe it got bumped up a little bit for for anticipation of more terrorists or continued tariffs. But I think this has always been in, in creation. And I think we're going to see a lot more 1:01:00 from, from that distillery with new products coming out of their heavyweight prop brands like Weller and Blanton's, and, you know, I don't think we'll see anything added to the Buffalo Trace antique collection. But I think you'll start seeing more limited releases. I got to push back just a little bit on that too, though, Fred. So I think, don't get me wrong. I think it's super smart if they were planning this for a few years, right. But I think I would categorize them just as smart for being a very smart businessman. If they read the current situation. They read the current landscape, the current tariffs and said, Alright, how can we capitalize this? Right? How can we turn this around and make it so that it works in our favor? Right, I'd say that'd be a just a smart individual and just a smart move. So while it may be planned, right, I got to give them I hope I'd give them credit for reading the current landscape and saying, what can we do to make this work in our favor? And hey, maybe both are Right, exactly. You know, so like, what I know is I'm not running a billion dollars. 1:01:56 I'm sitting here. So I am, this isn't 1:02:00 Confirm, but it was basically like kind of backdoor confirmed of Buffalo Trace production. So they were producing about 12,000 barrels a year in 95 by 2010, that was around 100,000 barrels. And by 2018, it was 250,000 barrels. 1:02:17 So may not be exact, but gives you an idea of the ramp up. They've been doing over the last, you know, two decades. So when you talk about they may not have had to steal from the European allocation. That's where I think there is more barrels that are going around now whether or not it's just a you know if it's really because of tariffs or is just because, you know, take advantage of the US market a little more. I think it could be a little bit of both, maybe it turned out to be good timing. But at the end of the day, I think they love the new press releases, they love the new brand extensions. You know, what was it 1:02:54 is it benchmark that's getting the next redo You know, we've seen them do it with well are now the 17 1:03:00 to benchmark and I think well, you know, they've kind of evolved the H Taylor brand to have a new release every year. I think we'll just like Fred said, we'll just keep seeing new bit several new releases each year because they want to be able to go back to t

On this episode, we touch on three topics. First, we look at how bourbon producers can reach new consumers. Then we take on the new celebrity craze. Over the past year, there have been about half a dozen music artists and TV personalities that have come out with bourbons. While we don’t see this trend stopping, we ask ourselves if this is good for bourbon as a whole. Lastly, we examine the current state of the secondary market. It’s a group consensus that we all miss it, but how has it affected value, store pricing, and distributor allocation? Show Partners: The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit. Barrell Craft Spirits enjoys finding and identifying barrels that contain distinctive traits and characteristics. They then bottle them at cask strength to retain their authentic qualities for the whiskey enthusiast. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about celebrity whiskey. How do bourbon producers reach new customers? What about new label designs? What do you think about celebrities getting into bourbon? Are celebrities helping or hurting bourbon? Let's discuss the current state of the secondary market. 0:00 Have you held a bottle of bourbon in your hand and wondered how was this made? sure there's the grains in the barrels and all that science that goes into it. But what about the package design, class manufacturing, shipping logistics, or purchase orders for thousands of cork stoppers. These are only a handful of things that you need to know. But what the University of levels online distilled spirits business certificate, you're only a few clicks away from learning from industry experts from renowned spirits businesses like brown Forman, jack daniels and more. Learn more about this online six course certificate at U of l.me. Slash 0:35 bourbon pursuit. 0:38 Carey is fashionably late for his returns. 0:41 I said he's making a big entrance right 0:45 see, I like this new platform because I hold the power like I actually don't have to put them on the screen. 0:50 Perfect. really sing as actually it's kind of cool how this works. Yeah, 0:54 it is cool. Yeah. Alright, he's here now should Adam 0:57 Can you can you like put his head face like behind a curtain kind of thing or voice? I can I can kick him 1:03 from the studio. He will do that. 1:06 I'll put him in. And then I'll take him out. 1:21 Everyone, it's Episode 241 of bourbon pursuit. And if it's your morning drive, good morning, if it's your daily run, break that record. And if you're sitting at work, let's make this day go by one hour faster. Last week, whiskey magazine presented their 2020 icons of American whiskey awards in New York City, and I'll be damned if we weren't even considered in the running. Who knows maybe next year, but here's some of the names that you might recognize. Brent Elliott from four roses was named master distiller the year Buffalo Trace as the best distiller and visitor attraction. peerless distilling companies small batch Kentucky straight bourbon was named the best Kentucky bourbon While Rebel Yell took home the best Kentucky single barrel bourbon and iron Republic out of Texas as the best non Kentucky and eh Taylor ride took home the best rye while to 91 Colorado whiskey took home the best new make award. And lastly Peggy no Stevens accepted and induction into the Hall of Fame as well. winners from the icons of American whiskey and world whisky awards. 2021 now go head to head and their competition across the globe to figure out who will be the best whiskey in the world. Now we presented in London in March of 2020. The Kentucky distillers Association announced that the famed Kentucky bourbon trail and Kentucky bourbon trail craft tour destinations Welcome to 1.7 million visitors in 2019. And now is celebrating its anniversary with its 21st birthday. Now, let's get into some bourbon economics beam centuri self solid sales growth in 2019. posting a revenue increase of six and a half percent for the Year and beam centaurs flagship brand, Jim Beam had a strong year in the US, where depletions increased eight and a half percent to 5.7 million cases. That also includes flavors variants of Jim Beam, according to impact databanks estimates. Now basil Hayden was another dynamic performer estimated up 37% to 345,000. cases in the US last year in Japan became the largest export market for Jim Beam last year, driven by the high vol craze, Kentucky Governor Andy Bashir announced that Kentucky is leading the nation in whiskey exports, which shouldn't be much of a surprise. The governor made the announcement while filling the 16th million barrel of Jim Beam at Jim beam's American steel house in Claremont, Kentucky, and Kentucky led all states in whiskey exports in 2019 at 480 $5 million. That total marks a 326% increase since 2004. While Canada united Kingdom, France, Brazil in Mexico make up the Commonwealth top five export destinations. Alright, today we've got the roundtable, a show where internet friends gather and discuss a bunch of bourbon popery. And On this episode, we touch on three topics, we look at how brands and distilleries can start reaching new consumers, and what are the best ways of getting your product in the eyes of them today? Then we take on the celebrity craze. Over the past year, they've been on a half a dozen music artists and TV personalities that have come out with Bourbons on the market. While we don't see this trend, stopping anytime soon, we ask ourselves, is this good for bourbon as a whole. And lastly, we examine the current state of the secondary market. It's a group consensus that we all miss it. But what has been the effect for pricing store pricing in distributed application, since this is all happened over six months ago. And if you're a Patreon supporter, you got the email yesterday that we're going to be doing a new pilot episode called Extra pursuit. This is a new kahlan radio show format that we're going to test out that is exclusively available to our Patreon community. We hope to see you all mine soon and make it successful to see how this thing's going to turn out. And speaking of things that are happening in the Patreon world, we have two barrel pics that are happening a Buffalo Trace this week. So if you want the opportunity to get your hands on one of these bottles of these private selections, as well as even possibly join us on the pic, go to patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit. It's this community that funds a lot of the things that happened with this podcast, and we're happy that we can bring these experiences like this to so many of our listeners. It's showtime. So here's Joe from barrel bourbon, and then you've got Fred minich, 5:45 with above the char. 5:48 Hey everyone, Joe here again, we enjoy finding and identifying barrels that contain distinctive traits and characteristics. We then bottle them a cast rank to retain their authentic qualities for the whiskey enthusiast. Next time Ask you bartender for barrel bourbon. 6:04 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char. Right now we're seeing a plethora of celebrity whiskies come out. Most recently Jason Aldean, and Terry Bradshaw have announced their whiskies Of course, last year we had slipknot and Metallica, Bob Dylan, and I got to tell you, there's going to be a whole lot more coming. I'm even familiar with a few of them, that some of which I cannot disclose at this time. But let me just tell you, we should not think of celebrity whiskey as something that is the end of times or a sign that the bubble is about to bust. Rather, celebrity whiskeys just mean that we have right now the attention of all those who are interested in making money. And basically celebrities are like any other business. They're all about trying to make money. And whiskey is one of the hottest games in town right now. course it doesn't help that George Clooney actually made a couple billion dollars off of a tequila a few years ago. And so with the rise of spirits come more celebrities, I believe we should actually reward those who make good whiskey or at least put their name on good whiskey. Here's the thing, this is what we don't want. We don't want whiskey to become the next vodka, where celebrities galore just kind of sign up and they just put their name on it. We want the celebrities to actually be involved. We want them to be involved with good whiskey. And you know, the Matthew McConaughey project with wild turkey is a good example of how a celebrity can be used to improve a brand. Now, we'll see if that ends up working in the long haul, but I kind of liked the idea of more celebrities coming in to the game of whiskey. And that's this week's above the char Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Twitter, Instagram, or Facebook, just search my name Fred MiniK Pape Until next week, cheers 8:03 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit, the official podcast of bourbon. This is bourbon Community Roundtable number 41. So we've been doing this quite a while and we've got a whole lot of good topics lined up tonight. And it's usually the Wrecking Crew that we have here. We talk about some, some culture things that are happening inside of Bourbons, and that, you know, latest news and we kind of give our, our best informed opinions and I guess that's maybe what you call it. 8:29 You know, maybe sometimes it's maybe simpler. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong, but that's just part of the process. But yeah, most of the time I get my comments, you know, decided right before the show, just research the topics and I'm like, okay, that's how I feel. I don't even know. 8:49 Yeah, 8:51 yeah, off the cuff. 8:54 That's part of the fun, you know, we've done this enough by now. And I think that's also funny for Ryan and I when we go and we're we're interviewing a lot of people nowadays. They're all like, hey, um, can you all send me like a list of questions that you want to answer ahead of time? 9:06 We're like, No, 9:09 we don't have any questions. 9:13 Like we're just gonna show up and ask questions. This is how we do it now. 9:18 I don't think we had an agenda the first time did we 9:20 forget roundtable? I don't remember. It was very first one that was so long ago. 9:24 That's too long ago. 9:27 I know. I know. But you know, let's go ahead and I think we can we can kick it off. So you heard some voices already. We'll save the our new special guest tonight for last you've heard his name on there before but I'll start with the guy who's always on here, Blake. You can't 9:41 get rid of me of the bourbon Roundtable. I'm Blake from bourbon er. Yeah, always fun to be on. You know. Still, this is one of the one of the highlights of the month to jump on here and talk with you guys. So thanks for having me. As always, you can find me on all the social medias, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. Bo you are Bo nr as well as my, I would say newer, or new site that's kind of just newish at this point. That's seal box calm, so es el ba ch s. So thanks me guys. 10:13 Absolutely make sure you go check it out for all your craft whiskey needs as well as pursuit series needs. You can go and get everything ordered right to your doorstep. We always need it. So Jordan, you're up next, buddy? 10:25 Sure. This is Jordan from breaking bourbon, one of the three guys from breaking bourbon calm. You can find us on all the socials at breaking bourbon and make sure to sign up for our newsletter. We're always sending out our latest calendar calendar releases. Is that starting already? Oh, it's it's been going already for for a few weeks now. 10:43 Oh, gosh. You feel 10:44 like it feels like it's it's a good time right now because you're like, oh, like we don't have to worry about anything crazy coming out like stag Junior bash 13. Like that came in when already now we can just relax for a minute but like seems like you guys just want to keep the energy going. 11:00 It'd be nice if we got a break, that's for sure. But the bourbon Gods demand it. 11:04 Yeah. Hey, we got Brian. How you doing, buddy? 11:07 Hey guys doing great thanks for having against Brian with sip and corn on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram is sip and corn. You can find me online at either sipping corn or bourbon justice calm looking forward to it. 11:19 Absolutely. And we have a familiar face of the Round Table making his return. 11:25 Carrie 11:26 How are you buddy? Hey guys, thanks for having me back on here if if Blake is Cal Ripken of baseball, I'm Fernando Rodney. I'm the reliever that you call in once in a while and you're really nervous because you don't know what's gonna happen. 11:43 Yeah, I could either be strong or not, but at least I'll look good with my hat turned a little bit to the side. 11:50 It's all a matter it's come sprinting out. Yeah, sprinting out of right field. That's right, people. Yeah. 11:57 This is awesome. 11:58 Well, Ryan as two people still watching Baseball I I certainly have paid zero attention to it but I don't know about you all. Then again, Louisville is not much of the amazing that we get the Louisville Slugger museum. We got the basically the biggest names with baseball here with the equipment yet. Like the city just really doesn't care that much about baseball because we don't have a protein just got to go an hour and a half north to be able to do that. 12:20 Yeah, they stink. Yeah, there's no point. 12:23 baseball's hot right now just because of the controversy. like everybody's talking about it now. 12:27 It was just the astralis conference. 12:29 Yeah, for sure. Which is crazy. If you look in depth at all of the stuff that's come out and then consider like the latest evidence where the guy was holding his jersey when he was crossing, homeboy. I know things like definitely a made for TV movie coming out ridiculous. Lifetime movie come 12:45 Yeah. But it keeps it fun. keeps it interesting. I think maybe like every once in a while, like sports have to do these things like they gotta create something to hype it back up again. Because as soon as it starts hitting this little plummet, you're like, Oh, am we're back up again. 12:58 Yeah, they said this is actually good for baseball bat for the Astros? 13:02 Well, that's true, as somebody's got to be a pawn in the game at the end of this right. So, all right, 13:07 so let's go ahead and start hitting some topics tonight. So the first one we want to do is we're gonna start looking at marketing and trying to figure out really how our bourbon distilleries and producers, how do they reach new bourbon drinkers? And I know that we've we've thrown a few different ideas around here. And I know Jordan, you had had some thoughts coming into this. So how do you kind of feel that distillers or bourbon, distilleries and marketing like how should they be reaching new consumers nowaday? 13:35 Yeah, so I think there's two parts, right? I'll make this short, but two parts. One is through people of the industry and making sure their products get out in their hands and making sure that we're highlighting them right. So for example, heaven Hill just sent out the whole latest batch of Elijah Craig. Right, which was great and everyone's posting bottles up and doing reviews and honestly, that's okay because usually it's a slam dunk bourbon, right for Most part, but other distilleries don't do that right Buffalo Trace released that press release for stag bash 13 they didn't send out any bottles, they just sent a press release. So, you know, I think the distilleries that are getting smart are making sure that bottle is getting hands of different review sites or different people on social media and making sure it gets out there. And then from just a standard consumer standpoint, right i think it's the people that are doing a lot of just non distiller producers right it's who is a fun label, who has a backstory good, right wrong and different, whatever your opinion may be on it. That's the people who walk in I have so many friends who go into liquor store they'll text me Hey, this looks really cool the labels cool fun backstory, you know anything about it? Like yet it's difficult. So is every other thing in your hand on the shelf, right? And they don't know what that means, though. They're just looking for a fun bottle to give us a present or Don't be. But there's nothing there's nothing wrong with decal, either. It's just you have to know kind of who's picking and who's selecting Right. I mean, we all know we've had some fantastic decal barrels coming out of there, but it's just, you know, that was just an example. So it's It's the people are doing it right or making sure they're getting out to the influential folks and talking about it. And then the rest are trying to just whatever the consumer with fun packaging. And that's kind of been tried and true throughout the years. 15:10 So you think they're doing a better job now then? I mean, Fred's not here. We can poke a jab at him then, like buying another Magazine Ad or something like that. But 15:20 I think they got smarter with the dollars and how they do stuff right. And I'll go back to heaven Hill, for example, right? They could just as well put up a billboard and global or anywhere else or they could have put out a huge news spread and bourbon plus or another magazine right whiskey advocate, announcing Elijah Craig barrel proof. Instead what they do, they got smart. Instead of sending a sample that people are viewing, they sent a bottle and you know what it's popping up all over social media, all of our websites and that cost them a fraction of what it would cost to a major advertising campaign. They smartened up the truly half 15:51 I didn't get a bottle 16:00 After bourbon and beyond and like a nice couple week run of, you know, really being on and things like 16:05 that, even years back, right? I mean, 16:10 bourbon blogging is two hobbies. It's the love of bourbon as a hobby, and the love of writing as a hobby. And I've come to realize that only like one of those two hobbies a lot. I like talking bourbon and I liked hanging out with people, but bourbon, but it's just the writing thing. It just inspires me for a while and then it it goes away. But if I finished the unfinished stuff that I have in my blog, I mean, I'd have like, I have like two and a half posts, it'd be amazing. So someday, we'll get back to it. But my question about the marketing stuff, are you referencing celebrities? marketing that or just how they're trying to reach consumers? 16:48 Yeah, I mean, we'll get to that in a little bit. I, you know, I'm kind of looking at, you know, how do we reach new bourbon drinkers? Right. And I think we'll get into the celebrity thing in a little bit because that's kind of like the second segment of the show. But you know, there's another thing that that I think brought up in our kind of private chat and that was, you know, I kind of want to stay on this topic a little bit before I start switching gears a little bit, you know, as we start looking into the clinical influencer realm, right, it's kind of a it's kind of like, I don't know if you guys like the word I feel like I'm like, nasty when I call myself an influencer like, 17:19 yeah, hundred percent. 17:21 Yeah, not good. 17:22 Yeah. Well, but that part is it's true. Right guys 17:24 are influencers though. I mean, you are like, when? Yes, the 17:30 batch 12 17:31 that you can't find anymore and the price went up. Do you know why that one went up? It's because of that guy right there. Jordan? Yes. Why? Yeah, that was definitely a breaking. 17:41 Breaking, but we'll certainly take credit for that. But you know, in our book, and I agree with what Kenny just said and you know, I we don't like the word influencer, I think to us, right? We put a ton of work into breaking bourbon. It's more than just a hobby, right? It's it's almost a full time job at this point is the job of planning job and we work our butts off for that. I think of influencer I think it's somebody out in a beach with a bottle and they're taking a picture. And that's, that's all they're going to put into it right? They're looking at their latest filter on Instagram. And that's how they're influencing folks. For us. It's truly a love and a passion of making sure we get out our thoughts to consumers that when they're new consumers are old consumers going to liquor store, we're able to help them pick out the right bourbon that's right for them. Right. And that's more than lensing. That's that's going out and doing a job to show in your love for the hobby. 18:27 Exactly. 18:28 I think it you know, kind of what Jordan said with how far is the influencer taking it, like, all right, you know, are they writing posts and had this conversation with, with with Josh from whiskey jug about, you know, you can have an influencer who do an Instagram story that's there for 24 hours, what does that really get you you know, is there really an ROI on that, but if they put an Instagram story, if they do a post, if they do a blog post, then you have SEO, SEO, you have backlinks, you have all this other stuff that's kind of building around it and So, you know, I think you almost have to be hitting all those areas to have some kind of influence. 19:08 But as far as which brands 19:09 are doing the best, I mean, you think about I know somebody mentioned this in the chat I think beam does a really good job of this barrel always does a good job about getting beer bottles up to people who are gonna, you know, have an audience and can post them. Heaven hills, come on strong. I mean, I don't Did anybody receive anything from heaven Hill until about two years ago? I know I didn't. So those are a few that I think definitely pop up. And Buffalo Trace seems to be taking the opposite approach of you know, we don't need as as much of this so, you know, used to if there was something you could get a sample it'd be two ounces or something like that. Now, even that seems pretty limited. 19:54 What they're doing, they get so many pictures 19:58 of just normal people. 19:59 Yeah. 20:00 Well wait one day. Yeah. Why would they send to really anyone when just some Joe Biden it has to take a crop shot crop shot just because he found Eagle rare or something like that? Yeah. 20:12 It was revolution that sample bottles too. So there's that. 20:18 I don't know that that sample size really makes a difference in terms of marketing. Because the people that are using you guys, your opinions probably are already into the hobby, right? So you've got the, the new people that they're trying to market to. And then you've got the people who are in the bourbon world who might not look at their brands, who they're trying to get them to switch. So I don't know. I feel like some of it too, is the marketing by us. And I guess we're getting into that part. But the marketing kind of gets into trying to influence young people, right, because you have people who in my mind people in college, first try bourbon if they haven't already, you know, but when you're 21 and you're in college, and you try it and then you know you're having Evan Williams had a full ball game or something and then you graduate and you wanted a nicer bourbon to move to I feel like that's kind of, I really don't know if that's where they're targeting, but it would seem like that would be your market. 21:09 Maybe I'm gonna disagree just a little bit and at least I'll speak for us and not a humble brag, but you know, we have millions of unique people come to breaking bourbon every year. And I guarantee you that the indepth crowd that we get caught up in on social media, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, nowhere near is that high, right? So that means to us, there's a lot of folks who are invested in the bourbon world who go to breaking bourbon. And I guarantee you it's probably the same thing for bourbon pursuit. They're probably picking up a ton of new people who aren't deep in the bourbon sphere. Right? And same with Brian and his book. I bet you have a lot of people are just really into largest into Kentucky history picking it up that part that have no relation whatsoever and who don't know what bourbon pursuit is we're breaking bourbon as. So the audience we reach is actually much greater than than we actually realize. And it's not everyone who's viewing this, you know, round table right now. It's much greater than that. So 21:56 they have discovered that because they realized they love bourbon. Or they're just trying bourbon and saying oh you know I like bourbon I'm gonna find bourbon and people on the internet 22:06 I don't know we ask we ask a lot of folks who write into us for the first time for the emails we say hey how'd you hear breaking bourbon said honestly I was in a liquor store trying to find more information before I dropped 40 bucks on bottle never heard of you guys before but you know it's good so they probably search the brand he searched the brand or the bottle totally don't know about breaking bourbon they're just searching for bourbon they're trying to get into it they're trying to make sure that their dollars right to us. We get so caught up just $200 bottles are in our bottle. Right The average consumer we you know, you need to remember 3040 bucks a lot of money drop on a bottle of bourbon. Right? So that's what they're looking for. Make sure they're spending their dollars wisely. 22:41 Your joke your points really good. Jordan, the people that I talked to in a lot of the presentations that I've been doing now, I don't know they're they're not the bourbon enthusiasts. They don't really don't know anything and I'm having to explain to them when we're doing a bottled and bond tasting what in the world bottled and bond is and they've never had the three that we've got on the tasting. So I think you're right there, there's a lot of new people coming into it. And that's, that's really what the brands are after I think. 23:08 I compare it to, like, you know, picking up other hobby. So if, if I'm looking at wine accounts, I may be falling for a complete marketing gimmick, but because I saw something on Instagram, so I want to try a bottle of wine or like, you know, some golf tool that is not going to help my game at all. But that's I don't know the difference. So I try to find the accounts that I think I can trust and that are giving good feedback. And, you know, just going from there and, like, kind of both y'all alluded to I think we really just, you know, don't give enough attention to the fact that the majority of the bourbon market is not guys like us. It's it's not guys that know what what mash bills are made aware or even care about it. You know, it's like, Hey, I got $40 to spend. I don't want to feel dumb. Because I get this bottle home and it tastes terrible. Where do I go? in you know, I think that's that's probably 80% of the market at this point. 24:10 Yeah, for so another big thing that makes me happy that this is all happening as well as that, you know, shout out to heaven Hill and a few other ones that that sends you full bottles, right? I mean, that gets you a much better Instagram shot than like a little two ounce sample a little cup that you know, kind of comes in and stuff like that. So I'm always happy to get the full bottles. I think that's fantastic. 24:32 I remember loving all bottles because they know I'm just going to like, review it, take a few pictures and then they get the bottle so they think it's the greatest thing ever. 24:42 I remember when Kenny used to get shafted, and now he's, he's on he's he's all the way to Mini. 24:50 I'm saying that. 24:51 Nothing wrong with that. 24:54 Absolutely not. Yes, yeah. So 24:57 go ahead right. 24:58 Do I get to get a point or not? We've had some 25:02 remember, I can put you on mute now? 25:04 Go ahead. No, my first right. No, I totally agree with what Blake says. And I've talked to you about this Kenny before, like we to get bourbon and expanded, we got to go to fringe audiences, like people that are interested in food, or cigars or wine, or like even cooking with green eggs or, you know, smoking food, you know, as there's just, that's where they got to start allocating their money to because people that are nerdy about something, they're going to be nerdy about bourbon, they're going to dive in to whatever they're interested in. And that's who you want are those people that are passionate about their hobbies. And so if you can get to those fringe audiences that kind of tie into what you got going on. 25:42 So the other part of this about looking at, you know, how are they reaching new customers, is we look at label designs and sort of what's happened in the market and on the most recent things that we can think of, of course, is like the new Baker's redesign, right? taking something that was a flagship product, redesigning it, giving it a Basically a face facelift of a label some new bottle new tops and everything like that. Do you all anticipate seeing this as a another trend forward where we can expect more brands to start saying like okay let's let's keep the brand but let's give it a whole new facelift let's break it so you look more younger more energetic anything like that. 26:20 Is that kind of part of marketing one on one anyway is is rebranding your image if if sales are hurting a little bit I feel like that's kind of kind of a standard especially in the bourbon world where it's just a label it just changed the label up in it you know people it sells out and fever like I got pre label stuff for sale and people go crazy and you know the fear FOMO sets in 26:42 or change the you change the proof or double the price to you know that 26:47 I think that's a lot of it too, right? I think it's a good excuse and I'm not justifying this at all, but I think brands are looking for a way to increase price right? One easy thing to do let's relay let's not really what but let's rebrand it right new bottle, different labels. Get a little more upscale 510 15 $20 mortars cost to the price. Right and I think you've been seeing that a lot of brands doing it. Or let's switch from screw top to cork. Let's do little things that make it feel more high end, same bourbon, right but now they're gonna start charging more and somehow people feel it's okay because now seeing the same model with a new increase price they're seeing a new bottle with an increased price. 27:22 Yeah, and there's some people in chat that are talking about how wild turkey is going through a yet another one. I think we've we've touched on this before, like, haven't they done like two or three of them in the past like five or six years of like, just suddenly changing things on the wild turkey one to one label? 27:36 Well, now it looks like they may switch the bottle up completely based on the last one I saw is that 27:42 I mean, I don't know if that's confirmed yet. But they they change everything. They're probably too much. I mean, look at what Rare Breed has six years. And I mean, they, it's it seems pointless. A lot of them are small changes. And then you've got the ones that do the big changes. I think that's where people notice A lot of people aren't going to notice that rare breed has changed four times in the last six years. 28:06 Yeah, I think there's a lot of thoughts on this one, but you've seen a lot over the last few years. You know, Weller had a overhaul, 17 9200 overhaul. lizer crack had an overhaul. And now you know, Baker's been the most recent and I would say probably Baker's was the most successful with it, because I can't like I've loved Baker's for a long time. And I don't know why more people didn't drink it. And all of a sudden, like it comes out in the cool bottle and people are like, Oh, man, have you tried Baker's like, this is not a new product was it 28:39 was it was not 28:40 a single barrel. So that did change. But, 28:43 um, 28:44 but it's, I mean, go back and taste it against some older bakers. And you'll be like, wow, this is really good. I love the new stuff. But I mean, that's a huge win, I think for being because people now love it. It looks so much better on the show. There's more people buying it people realize how good it is. And all they did was change the label, you know, call it single barrel. 29:08 Marketing one on one, right? The wine world taught me how to do labels and we got new bottles and they sell. 29:15 Yeah. You know how many? How many screw caps do we have on the market today? As opposed to just you know, five years ago? No, no, not a whole lot. You know it. There's something about that, that value of pulling off a cork instead of unscrew it. You know, even Weller antique, even after the redesign went to a cork instead of the screw cap. So 29:40 very old Barton. That's all I can think of. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 29:45 And now What's the next one? benchmark benchmarks about to get a 29:49 overall that's doing a whole new line 29:50 of benchmark bourbon, too. Yeah. There's a whole new line extension. 29:54 I mean, Buffalo Trace just moves down the line. Right. Let me 29:57 let me assure you we've talked about done in a roundtable been over a year ago, I think that we talked about how they kind of go in the cycle of like finding something and re reinvigorating or reinventing it. You know, like 1792 was a very good example of that in the past a year and a half of maybe even two and a half years now, of what they've done to actually bring out new line extensions, repackaging everything like that, to really uplift the brand from what it had actually been before. So as we kind of continue down this path to and trying to figure out well, what how people are they going to be reaching new consumers and we look at something that we've talked about before and that's celebrities, celebrities getting into whiskey, notably bourbon, you know, there's there's a lot of things in whiskey but you know, this is bourbon pursuit. I think we'll focus on bourbon. And so in the past year, you know, we've had Bob Dylan, there's been Slipknot, Metallica, Matthew McConaughey, and now, Florida, Georgia line and Jason Aldean are now teaming up to create their own. And then also in the past two weeks, I think one that maybe took us all by shock was Terry Bradshaw. 30:56 Like Yeah, 30:56 I was I was I saw that too. And I was like, wow, I mean, Captain Kirk like I understood that one like, but like Terry Bradshaw like really? That's a new one. Did you watch 31:06 the Super Bowl? Pretty sure he was drinking it live during that. During that 31:09 broadcast. We'll talk about best advertisement you could. There's freakin terrible tiles everywhere you look at like watch every Steelers game no matter where they are. It's like there's just everywhere. It's the Anima when you buy McDonald's here run. 31:22 Yep, exactly. I think you know, a lot of its going to be back to right George Clooney is tres amigos. Right? So if you're another celebrity, you have any influence whatsoever and you have a name recognition. If you realize three guys can pull off a billion dollar brand you're gonna try and get in. Right? I think what people fail to realize or maybe not people, right? I think people realize what celebrities fail to realize is that isn't always the case like lightning. That was a lightning in a bottle type situation like Dan ackwards had Crystal Skull Baka since 2007, right and like people know what that is, but by no means is that a billion dollar brand? Right? So I think everyone's trying to cash in on their fame and do it think they're probably not going to see a huge payout, right, they may get a kick out of seeing their name on a bottle of whiskey on a bottle of alcohol. But if they're looking for a payout like the other folks had good luck. I think Ryan Reynolds is the next track to really take a very Jen super far right. I think he's Yeah, 32:16 I think that's a smart move to with the gin route instead of, you know, sure you're targeting a cool market, which I don't know, maybe we're just all wrong. And we're still like, over or under estimating the amount that people care about, like what's actually in the bottle. 32:33 But 32:34 now, I mean, I was texting with Oj leamas about this. And he said, Nobody wants to buy my shoes from a guy or basketball shoes from a guy who can't dunk. But it's kind of different in the bourbon world. You know, it's like you know, what is actually dunking in the bourbon world. So if Slipknot comes out with a bourbon or whiskey, whatever they came out with, like, people buy it, I guess I don't know. 32:58 I don't they buy it though. I mean, yeah. It's growing 33:02 like crazy. There's more 33:03 for me of what I want if they're gonna leave my four roses single barrel alone and I can actually find it on the shelf again great, you know sell it out 33:13 they'll come back and buy more. 33:15 I think I'm a little more indifferent on this one because it's like if that's what what people want to do and that brings more people into the industry and to buy you know hopefully they come in because they want to buy whoever Terry broad shall bourbon and then they're like, Oh, hold on. There's actually people who make this who make a lot of other good products. That's just one more consumer in the door. So 33:39 you're speaking as the guy you know, was sealed box here as the guy who already walks into total line and there's people around the corner and you know, you just want to check out and they all want Blanton's and you're like, sorry, you know, just you guys are driving me crazy here. And they they you know everything is impossible to get nowadays from that standpoint. You know, you don't want more people hobby. But I get where you're coming from too because it's from our standpoint of people who love hobby and love to talk about, you know, love bourbon and talk about bourbon. It's good for us, for them to bring more people in. 34:11 Yeah, I think there's one thing that I really wish that we were able to see in this world is like, if these celebrities really love whiskey and love bourbon as much as they do, like, I wish there was, like, if they were promoting it themselves, like if they were if they were drinking a bottle of Buffalo Trace or wild turkey or whatever it is, and we got, you know, we saw that more often then we're like, oh, my, like, these guys are really into bourbon. Right? Yeah. And making it versus somebody that like, you know, I don't know, maybe a picture service to like somebody drinking a four roses, and they're like, Hey, now I'm gonna start a brand, right? Like, I just, I just wish there was just something more like that was deep into it. They're like it was able to tell a story that would get people like us excited. Right? And I don't I don't think it really gets people like us excited because it feels it feels bad. Like I feel like we're just so naanum a little bit, but the thing is, is like they're not really trying to reach us per se. Right? And and I wish that there was a little bit more something that appeals to the whiskey geek in this category that says like, oh, like, this is why we want to do it because we had so much enjoyment of doing this and this and this, which, you know, you take this and you look at what Fred has done by interviewing the guys at Slipknot, same thing with Metallica. And actually like getting the story of you know, they're like, basically them and why they started the brand and really like what whiskey means to them. Like, I just don't want this to snowball to the point where every celebrity starting to come out with some type of liquor. I mean, everybody's talking here in the chat. Like I know the rock is getting ready to come out with a type of tequila. And it's it's going to continually growing, you know, it's going to grow more and more. However, I just want to make sure that you know, I it sounds bad. I feel like I'm on a bachelor Bachelorette like hope they're in it for the right reasons. 36:01 battlers, which I did have to sacrifice and DVR The Bachelor tonight so y'all are 36:05 well, man. No, 36:08 but I mean like overall like in, you know, Brian, I'll kind of go to you first like, do you see this is like good or bad for the whiskey world. 36:21 With the careers of master distiller spanning almost 50 years, as well as Kentucky bourbon Hall of Famer and having over 100 million people taste his products. Steve nalli is a legend of bourbon who for years made Maker's Mark with expertise and precision. His latest project is with Bardstown bourbon company, a state of the art distillery in the heart of the bourbon capital the world. They're known for the popular fusion series, however, they're adding something new in 2020 with a release named the prisoner. It starts as a nine year old Tennessee bourbon that is in finished in the prisoner wine companies French oak barrels for 18 months. The good news is, you don't have to wait till next year to try it. Steve and the team at Bardstown bourbon company have teamed up with racket Whiskey club rack house whiskey club is a whiskey to Month Club on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer. Their December box features a full size bottle of Bardstown suffusion series, and a 200 milliliter bottle of the prisoner. There's also some cool merchant side. And as always, with this membership, shipping is free. Get your hands on some early release Bardstown bourbon by signing up at rack house whiskey club.com. Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. 37:32 Do you see this as like good or bad for the whiskey world? 37:36 I think it's indifferent. I mean, the the people who know what they're doing and the people who who look at look at you guys for reviews there, they're going to be picking the ones that are worth buying. And I can't imagine that a lot of these are worth buying. So I don't see it as affecting me too terribly much. 37:55 Anybody else? You guys are awful quiet on this 38:00 I feel like I don't know, I gave my opinion of I don't think it's bad to bring more people into the whiskey world. Like, are we pushing it to jump the shark even further? I don't think so, because there's going to be so much whiskey. And, you know, Drake released his own whiskey a few years ago and you know, it's just something that constantly happens if there's money to be made, you're going to have these people who say hey, let's let's throw a big name on a brand you'll be the face of it and we'll handle the back end so I don't think of it as a bad thing you know, if that means that there's more bottles on the shelf when people walk into a total line and maybe they see a name they recognize it they buy it, good for them, but i don't know i don't i don't think see it as something that like kind of interferes with our lane of the bourbon nerd world. 38:53 I know any of it is gonna be good. Is what I'm more. 38:57 How many how many bottles of actually Bad bourbon Have you had four major distilleries? And I'm talking about like, 39:04 stuff you can't drink. Our major dealer is doing rock and roll band releases, though. 39:12 I mean, I think they're sourcing through somewhere. I don't think definitely. 39:18 Do we ever sure any? 39:20 Well, I mean, I mean, 39:21 no, I don't think it's any race. But I can tell you right maybe it will maybe some MGP maybe you know, Barton's and 39:30 usual suspects. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I mean, and you know, the Terry Bradshaw bourbon, it's all from Ozi Tyler right. And I believe it's gosh, it might be a three or just a four year old or something like that. So that might be one of the first brands that are gonna be coming out of OC Tyler and Brian and AC or they're making some faces but you know gotta gotta get understand about like Ozi Tyler like sometimes it gets a bad rap because the only like people pin Ozi Tyler repair tear up here like that's what that's what people my head one yeah. 40:00 Exactly I was a big mistake on their part because they there that Jacob McCall is actually a really good master distiller there and he makes an outstanding product, but they have that black eye on them because of this like Tara peer thing, because it's like, I mean, it's a, everybody thinks it's a gimmick, and nobody's gonna get a fair fair shot. So they're just I think they're actually trying to rebrand and come out with new brands that you know, aren't Ozi Tyler so they can get away from that. But back to the celebrity thing, I think it's good. The more you get it to the, if you will, it's good. If you want bourbon to grow, if you don't want it to grow, then it's bad. The more you can get into common people, it's just the natural progression of any product, the more appealing it is to the mass audience celebrities do that, whether you like it or not. Yeah, that's just that's, 40:44 it's I'm interested in a little bit of bourbon history and bourbon law. And so I've got a 40:51 great book that they can check out 40:53 and really get into it. I'm right there with you guys. I think the more people drinking bourbon, right, whether that's good or bad for people Trying to find bottles it is what it is. But the more people are drinking up, the more money that producers are willing to invest in it right? Big or small, and more. So the more legs and bourbon has to go a long time before there is a, you know, it's a boom and bust cycle. So before there's a bust, and honestly, if they can keep this up, then it's just ingrained in the American culture, right? And then you'll see bourbon out there. Let's be real. You don't want to see a bus like flavored vodka, what, 15 years ago and everyone's drinking flavored vodka 20 years ago. Let me tell you how many of you are walking through the store. Like I think I'll pick up some bubblegum vodka to drink tonight. just doesn't happen, right? If you drink bourbon now and other people see you drinking it for 1015 years have a hold on long enough. That's cultural that's generational. Right? And then we actually have bourbon taking off and just becoming more mainstream, which is fantastic. I mean, I mean, this 41:47 is this is a good discussion, because I think you know, as we it, there's a lot of things that are happening in the comments as well. People were saying, you know, like, basically there's Who was it? That was Hank Williams Jr. Our Booker was in a hurry. Williams jr music video with Dreamhouse say that there's I forget I saw something else but basically saying whoever was was was pushing dickhole a lot back in the day as well. And so I think celebrities do have a role in this right as as an advertising mechanism and stuff like that getting into it be I mean, in Mila Kunis has been doing it for a while. And that's but that's just the advertising side of it. I mean, we're talking about actually like having a hand at creating something that is a product, which is completely different, in my opinion, right? Where I think they probably have a lot more skin in the game, they've got their dollars invested into it. And so it becomes something that is a cornerstone for them that they've got to make. They've got to make successful and so if they don't, then it could end up being like Trump aka right who knows right? Where it just is no longer on the shelves or something like that. 42:54 But latronnik baka 42:57 you're sitting on it. I think it's worth something nowadays. And speaking of worth something now, I guess that kind of leads into a it's, it's always a topic we love and we hate it the second at this at the time, but that is the secondary market. 43:10 Nice transition. I know. 43:13 I try to find ways to make it fun and interesting without like Ben and myself is like, oh, they'll go people that always talk about the secondary market. But it truly is like one of those things that we're now Gosh, five months, almost six months since the since the kind of smack down if you will, yeah, really had this still exist? 43:33 No, I'm kidding. 43:34 Well, that's kind of what we're going to go into. 43:36 July. July was when the group I was running went down. So it's been over six months. 43:41 Yeah. 43:42 So there we go. I was 43:44 I was thinking it was like sometime like September timeframe or something like that, but it was before then then then we're definitely over six months. So I guess we're going to kind of talk about the current state of the secondary. Me personally, I made I made a prediction on our last of 2019 episodes saying that 2020 was going to be the kind of rebirth of it where a new Facebook groups going to come up this whole thing was just going to fly over like blah blah blah blah, who cares? And so far I've been completely wrong that has not come to fruition it is continuing to groups either be shut down, or there's just new rules and saying like no posting of dollar signs or anything like that, but there has not been a group that has started to break you know, really come up and make a name for itself. at the same exact time bottle spot has suffered a casualty, which was something that I did not see coming which I don't know I kind of took me by surprise. I don't know about you all but right now, I would say I would, I would say the current state of the market is if we're going to go like red yellow green like it's gonna be in the pink area. right it's it's an innocent a no bueno. State still, 45:01 you know, it's certainly maybe not life support but close to life support, right? It's nothing's really popped up. I think two things. One, Facebook got really good about shutting down groups where you saw a bunch pop up right after the secondary, the bugs shut down and they just kept smacking down other ones. I think a little bit of Facebook doing better about patrolling things. I think it was a little bit more of people out there saying, well, Now's my chance to report everything right. Little bit, a little bit Facebook heroes going on, we'll call it. But I think it's a loss. I think it's lost the community whether or not I mean, I never bought or sold on the secondary. But what I love doing was just seeing the latest trends, what people were really after, right? I love seeing new consumer to consumer supported caeser to a different bourbon. They just decided to get into the week before, but it really showed what people were after and what brands were becoming hot, what brands were pulling down what was coming and what people were really looking forward to. And that's just gone from just a pure, you know, gamesmanship just a fly on the sidelines watching that's gone and that's a shame. You know, and I think it's also a shame to for everyone who now Bye cases and cases of bourbon they just started get into thinking they flip it easy. Sure. Hope they like drinking it for sure. A lot of parties torn up you 46:09 still got all those diamonds? Yeah, 46:12 I'm good. I do diamonds. 46:16 I don't think the markets really that much. It's still there. It's just more spread out. There's more places there's more rules. Let me win one market goes down another one comes back up. It 46:28 it still exists. And you can't stop it. I mean, it's not going to exist is the thing and and it'll, whether it's Facebook or someone finds another platform or whatever it it'll exist. I mean, I wish it to Jordan's point. I wish you could kind of see it from the sidelines, but it's still going to exist in so 46:50 I think 46:50 it actually has been affected way more. You know, I'm kind of with Kenny where it stopped and slow down way more than I thought it would you know, I thought it would always exist. Didn't it does to an extent, but it definitely took a big hit. You know, I think just the fact that all these massive groups were shut down. I don't know if there's a group that is in the, you know, is their group in the six? Well, not in the six figures in the five figures or, or even 10,000 plus members that hasn't been shut down? Probably not. So, you know, it definitely takes a big hit. Now, it's like, you have all these, you know, people just selling well or 12 or bottles that really shouldn't be sold. nobody's doing that as much anymore because it's not open. It's not as big of market so all in all, I think it was a pretty surprising change and how it all went down. So I still think it's a detriment to the bourbon world because whether you love it or hate it, that was a big part of just watching, you know, what was getting sold, what were the trends, you know, older bottles, and Yeah, it was just kind of fun to see that stuff be sold. You know, I'm kind of with Jordan like I didn't participate, but I liked seeing that what was going on so a little disappointing. 48:11 I guess. I'll go ahead Carrie. Sorry. 48:14 No, no, no, go ahead and do that. 48:16 Okay, okay. 48:18 We need our Ryan Come on. 48:19 I know we didn't need more Ryan. 48:21 I'm talking about the secondary market I'm kind of relieved about it because like, I'm not doing like mega balls and all this crazy like, gambling and stuff like in trying to like, but it's also because it is a bummer like you used to you know, that was my night like scrolling through seeing what people are buying what they're selling what they're going for. I do love the yard sale stuff. Oh my god, it cracks me up like that keeps me entertained. But uh, yeah, I think it's, you know, I'm indifferent about if it's detrimental to bourbon. I mean, it's detrimental to us. But as a I think bourbon is just like we were talking about earlier we forget about the common consumer and they have no idea that's exist. Still. It doesn't affect them. It's still growing. Besides that, but I do think some brands like really valued from the secondary market Buffalo Trace being one of them, I'm not really sure that they would be what they were without it, and I don't and there's brands like old Scout, there's no way they would be anything without the secondary market Vlogbrothers all these MGP brands, nobody would have gave us, you know, two flips about them if there wasn't a secondary market out there. And so, I think it it does hurt us but I think people got in it early enough to where they got educated about brands that they didn't know existed and now it does suck for the people that bought bottles, but I don't know do you think like so? I'm gonna give a shout out to my boy Guthrie at toddies. I know he's listening in but do you think like liquor stores that can sell that stuff now? Does that help them? You know, with pricing or does it hurt pricing? 49:52 Well, I think in my opinion, this is this has become a basically a guessing game right? Somebody says, Oh, I got this bottle what's it worth? I mean Blake we had this conversation the other day he came across some some pre pros and he was like, Hey, what is this worth? I were like shit I don't know we don't have a database there's no there's no information and so it's like there's no way that we can really like pin a price down any of this stuff anymore. You know, and thankfully the is the even though I mean I think the bottle blue books still there because it's ran by some of our really really good friends of the show as well. But that might be the only indication of the value of the anything that's even out there in the market anymore. And even at that is still like it's a varied range, right? Like a each Taylor tornadoes anywhere from like 1300 or 2000. Like that's that's an all over the place, in my opinion. 50:46 Yeah, but if you look at it's still what's what blows my mind is that if you look at Pappy 15 despite everything that has happened to all the markets, it's established value is still the exact same as it was before all of the markets crashed. hasn't changed. It's still the exact same. 51:02 Again, I think that'll be 51:04 better too though. That's the one you can talk to anyone who knows nothing about bourbon but they might know they might not even know a bourbon is but they know that Pappy is a whiskey and that they want it. Right. It's just something that people want that they can't have bottom line. 51:16 Well, I think that's where I think you have like your your solid, you know, cornerstones of the bourbon bourbon secondary that won't change, you know, antique collections never going to change. mixers are going to change. 51:30 You know, where 17 changed a lot. 51:33 Well, yeah, no, no, I'm saying that they're, they're always going to have that secondary market. But I think it's the lower ones. You know, it's the Weller, twelves it's the victors 10 years, it's, it's those that will just kind of say, Go away, and maybe that's a good thing. Maybe that just means that more available. Market is more available, so 51:51 means you can go to the store and actually find it. 51:54 Not unlovable. I 51:56 think I still can't find it here. 51:58 Well, I think we still have a lot time until that goes into, you know, into Karis point as well, there are still smaller sex where this is happening, right, like just smaller groups and just spread around a little bit more. And you can't be in a mall. And if there's only 500 people in it and you get a good deal on something, then that's what it is. And maybe you drink it, and you hold on to it and you find somebody else you try to sell for the same exact price. I don't know, whatever it is, this is just it's been basically a collapse of the Empire, if you will. And so now you've got all these, these little armies that are trying to I wouldn't say try to take anything over, but they're definitely trying to keep something alive. 52:35 And the one point I would agree with Ryan about the part that I think hurts the average everyday person is if you wanted to trade a bottle, you know, used to be easy to kind of figure out values of what you had, and what you wanted and make a very similar kind of trade. You know, you're staying in the hobby, you're not trying to make money from your stuff. You're just trying to trade to try different stuff. And I think from that aspect, the limited secondary market definitely makes it harder to do that to reinvest in your hobby? 53:02 So I think that is that is one drawback of it. 53:05 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, miss those trades. 53:08 Yeah. Well, that's, that's for sure. But so there is also another thing that I kinda want to bring up and this was a an article that Chuck Cowdery actually had written I think, Jordan or Blake, whatever kind of took me on to this as well, because I know I read it. However, you know, this was this was Chuck's sort of summary is that saying that really the the secondary market doesn't matter. There's no objection to it or anything like that. He's just saying that basically, all it's really doing is just helping out a small limited subset of brands. But if you want to just go find larceny or anything else, then it's really not a big deal. And so, really, if you wanted something that you want to find good to drink, there's plenty of stuff on the shelves. But if you want to go ahead and play that game of what it takes to get there, then you know To find these limited bottles, then you get to play that game. 54:04 So I I'll chime in cuz I think we might have thrown that out there. I appreciate. I appreciate Chuck having his own viewpoint, right. But what I found ironic about that article is Chuck said, that's a setup for like, you're a moron. 54:20 Don't say it, I will. 54:23 But here's, here's what I found super ironic about that article. You know, he says it doesn't impact but a small few brands and he lists out a bunch, right? And then he's like, but there's other good bourbon and drinks such as this that you know, they're good weed and Bourbons or stuff like this. And he lists larceny and other things. And you know what? I think that takes into account what Chuck may like, right? He might think is good, but there are truly people out there who've been drinking Blanton's for 20 years or Waller you know, well, there used to be my house bourbon, I would buy a case at a time, right? Just to make cocktails or throw parties and put it out just regular Weller and now I can't find it and that's a shame. Right? And you know what, I liked it that bourbon. I know other people out there like plans They weren't selling or flipping and they just like to drink right? So the people who truly like to drink the brands now the secondary market didn't make a big difference right? And I'm glad that Chuck things you know, there's other Bourbons that might replace it but for some folks they don't get replaced even drinking the same brand for 20 years and it did impact them in a big way. So again, I respect Chuck having that opinion Dr. Ruth unknown now one debt whatsoever, but you know, it's he threw it out there so I'm gonna throw back and say, you know, it's that's a false that's a fallacy. 55:26 Well and the other reason he's wrong as he points out Rittenhouse is you know, why would Rittenhouse be $11 a few years ago and why is that gone up? It's because with bourbon all all ships are rising when you when you increase the ceiling on what people will pay for a bourbon that is popular or the people want to get that gives you room to raise the price of the lower ones and that's why we don't have heaven Hill six year bottled and bond anymore. I mean, it just doesn't make sense to have that anymore. When a distillery can make so much money, so much more money on it or so much more money from Rittenhouse it's it all rises. And that's that is a direct relationship to the secondary market. 56:11 I was gonna say we do still have it, we just have it at 30 bucks more, right? 56:15 Well, that's right. It's there. But it's it's because it's it's you've got secondary market that has increased demand. And it has increased ceiling of what people are now willing to pay. I mean, 10 years ago, I could get seven different Bourbons for about $25 that were fantastic that are now all over $100 on the secondary market and you can't find at least in lieu of on the shelves. 56:41 Yeah, speaking of that marketing, heaven Hill, bottle and bond six here. Yeah, got a new label. And now you can't find it on shelves anywhere. That's right. 56:51 Man, that's because of the secondary markets a direct relationship. That's where I think it 56:55 I think, where we probably we undersell You know, the the vast majority of the market a little bit with with not bringing them into some of the decisions that we're talking about. But with this, I feel like there is a small percentage driving the market and prices and distilleries are looking like that. We have countless examples of them looking at the secondary, and bumping prices up to that. And you're, you're trying to tell me that that doesn't drive a lot of like these rebrand names we're talking about and all this other stuff, like there's no way like, that's exactly what's behind it. Because ultimately, for a lot of us, this is fun. We enjoy it's exciting. But these are businesses they're trying to make the most money they possibly can. So, you know, I, I would have to disagree with Chuck on this one to say, No, you're kind of missing the point that while the the rudder may be a small part of the ship, it's still what steer it. 57:57 Right that metaphor down, say that one over and write 57:59 it They're very true. 58:07 Yeah, so 58:08 I'm gonna leave it at that. 58:12 No, I think that's those are all really good opinions because I and I tend to agree with the group here that I really wish that it was still around only because of for that sake of either seeing trends and everything like that the other side of it actually going away is I feel like I have a lot more time on my hands I feel like I can scroll through Facebook I I find myself getting into like high end watch groups now instead of like that's on my feed, and then somehow also joined like a hype group. And so there's like all kinds of like shoes that are coming on. I'm not a sneaker I'm not a sneaker person at all, however, 58:45 and this is 58:46 all kind of I'll bring this up because I find this fascinating, right? Like, we talked about flippers and everything like that, and how they're the scum of the earth and Battleblock in in the shoe world. It's like hey, that's just par for the course man. Yep, 58:58 yeah. Ended amazing. A world where it's par for the course. I hate 59:03 to promote another podcast on this podcast but go listen to the it's a podcast called business of hype and it's the guy Jeff staples who's like, big into the streetwear world and in the it's produced by hypebeast. But then you start to realize like, oh, like we're not doing anything new. This is in so many other like industries and like small niche communities and like the bourbon secondary market isn't something new. But But yeah, it's, it's crazy. If you look at all that stuff, especially with sneakers, like there's a whole other world there's like stock x which tracks the price of them and all this other stuff and like we're actually a little bit behind in the perfect world. And when you look at some of these other industries, so 59:49 so Kenny you looking a

Red Hook Rye... that bottling might be what made LeNell a household name among bourbon unicorn chasers, but LeNell has a story to tell when it comes to the spirits industry. Her story is filled with fortunate encounters that propelled her name and eventually put her little shop in Brooklyn on the map. Like any endeavor, her story has highs and lows. LeNell shares what owning a store in Red Hook was like back in the day and how she has gone back to her roots in Alabama. We also touch on secondary pricing of her famous private label. Now, before you go any further, this podcast does contain some explicit language so don't say we didn't warn you. You get to hear the real LeNell Camacho Santa Ana. Show Partners: The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit. At Barrell Craft Spirits, each batch is it's own unique expression of their blending process. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: Jim Beam Article: https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-beams-are-americas-first-family-of-bourbon This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about the Super Bowl. When was your first taste of whiskey? Do you care about Alabama football? Where did you get the idea of LeNell's? What were your early days like? Did your store ever experience any crime? How did you get into the liquor business? Why did you focus on bourbon? Talk about Straight Bourbon. How did Red Hook Rye happen? Tell us about the process of selecting Red Hook. Do you have any Red Hook left? What are your thoughts on the secondary pricing? What hurdles did you face opening up a store in Alabama? Why was this store so important to you? Do you feel like it is better now as a women in whiskey than in the past? Tell us about the success of your store. Are you helping other businesses open in your neighborhood? What is your newest project?   0:00 I love bourbon, but I'm not ready to restart my career and be distiller. I have a bachelor's degree and I want to continue to use those skills in the whiskey industry. So check this out. The University of Louisville has an online distilled spirits business certificate. And this focuses on the business side of the spirits industry like finance, marketing and operations. This is perfect for anyone looking for more professional development. And if you ever want to get your MBA their certificate credits transfer into u of L online MBA program as elective hours. Learn more about this online six course certificate at U of l.me. Slash bourbon pursuit. 0:38 Now hold on Kenny we have to anytime I talk to someone from Alabama. I gotta find out. Are you an Auburn fan? Or tide fan? Neither I don't give a shit. 1:01 This is Episode 238 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your host Kinney, and it's time for a bit of bourbon news. Lou Bryson and acclaimed bourbon journalist and author wrote a captivating story called America's first memory of bourbon, the beams. I'm going to give you a little bit of context about the article and hope that you go read the rest of it because it gives a historical timeline of James bullguard beam, better known as Jim Beam, and distilling bourbon before prohibition, what he did after prohibition ended, and how this family lineage just as tie spreading all across the bourbon industry. Now during Prohibition, he tried other businesses including a rock quarry, and an orange grove that ultimately failed. So he found investors in Illinois to fund a new distillery after prohibition ended. Along with his son and two nephews. They built a distillery in 120 days and open on March 25th 1935. Jim was 70 years old at the time, and before prohibition, the beam family brand had been a 2:00 Old tub bourbon whiskey. To Jim's dismay, he learned that the rights the name had been sold during Prohibition. Despite this setback, he was undeterred. And that's when the whiskey officially became Jim Beam bourbon. The story then dives into this mid 1700s with Johan is Jacob beam. And then from there, the family lineage starts really spreading and talks about how they helped create early times distillery toddies liquor, heaven Hill, and their ties and estates of Weller Maker's Mark Frankfort distillery JW dance for roses, mixers, and so many more. You can read the full story with the link in our show notes to the daily beast.com wilderness trail one of the founding distillery destinations on the Kentucky bourbon trail craft tour has advanced to join the Kentucky bourbon Trail Adventure becoming the 18th stop on the world famous journey that showcases America's only native spirit. co owners Shane Baker and pat heist are recognized globally as leading fermentation specialists to their original company. 3:00 firms solutions, consulting with distilleries around the world to develop products and enhance production. And you can listen to Pat and Shane back on episodes hundred and 21 and 130. They're open for tours Tuesday through Saturday, and the visitor experience includes a 45 minute walking tour and an educational tasting seminar in the tasting room. You can learn more at wilderness trail distillery.com Talladega Superspeedway has announced that Clyde maze whiskey has become its official whiskey. Roy danis Chief Executive Officer of konica brands, which has Clyde maize and its portfolio said the partnership with Talladega Superspeedway is particularly resonant for Clyde maze because they have a similar origin. Stock racing was invented by moonshiners who use fast cars to escape the law. Clyde Mae was an Alabama farmer and a moon shiner who dodged Olam self a few times. They are the official state spirit of Alabama and Talladega is one of the most famous venues in the state. Clyde may himself 4:00 What has been proud to know his legacy continues through this Talladega partnership? 4:06 Now you heard it when we start started the podcast but I want to say thank you to our returning sponsor, the UFL College of Business and the online distilled spirits business certificate. We had a few listeners enroll last time, so perhaps it's time for you to give it a look. Make sure you go check it out at U of l.me slash bourbon pursuit. Now, Red Hook rye. That bottling might be what made l&l a household name among bourbon unicorn chasers over the years. But lamelle has a story to tell when it comes to the spirits industry. Per story is filled with encounters that propelled her name, and eventually put her little shop and Brooklyn on the map. We hear the story of owning a store in that area back in the day, how it was like and Holly she has now gone back to her roots, opening up a store in Alabama. Now, before you go any further, this podcast does contain explicit language. So don't say we didn't warn 5:00 You, you get to hear the real lyndale Camacho Santa Ana. All right, it's that time. Let's see what jover barrel has to say. And then you've got Fred minich with above the char. 5:12 I'm Joe Beatrice, founder of barrel craft spirits. each batch is its own unique expression of our blending process. Find out more at barrel bourbon calm. 5:23 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char. Here we go into the Super Bowl. Oh my gosh, this is a great matchup if you're a sports fan, you get to see two amazing rushers in the San Francisco 40 Niners up against one of the most explosive offenses I have seen and some time. I mean, Patrick mahomes is this guy that you know, he may be down 25 points and he's like, Oh, yeah, I'm going to show you and I gotta tell you, I am so so glad that we have the matchup that we have because it is a 6:00 It is kind of like a football fans dream, great offense against great defense and one really good offense against a really good defense that you know what's going to give here. Anyway, this is not a football podcast. This is a bourbon podcast, so I should probably get to it. The reason why I bring up the Super Bowl, it wasn't until 2017 that the NFL even allowed spirits advertisers, so for years they had a ban on distilled spirits advertising within the NFL. Now, you got to remember to spirits had not been advertising on television until 1996. The industry had put a self imposed ban on advertising from spirits having this kind of notion that you know, if they promoted themselves, they could be drawing the ire of the prohibitionist this this held true until the mid 1990s until a small group 7:00 From Crown Royal that we call a code breakers broke the code of the distilled spirits Council and did a small little test ad in the Corpus Christi Texas market that went into like the spirits council changing their basically changing a lot of their their code. And so now you see spirits being advertised consistently. However, sports teams still struggle to bring in booze advertisers because what happens at these games people get really drunk. They make fools of themselves. I mean, there have been many incidents of people getting hurt. I think there are many people being killed by you know, drunken assholes before. And so it's often a bad look in the eyes of people who on these NFL teams to associate themselves with the liquor brand. Well, in 2019, the NFL actually changed their their belief they relax their policy on alcohol sponsorships, and allow the league to expand this game. 8:00 expand the use of basically allow a brand like Jim Beam to partner with a player. And that's the first time that anyone had ever done that. And if you recall a few years ago, you had Richard Sherman on the podium talking about how the NFL wouldn't allow people to partner with alcohol brands. So I'm glad to see that the NFL has relax those policies. I hope that it will continue because there is not many things better than enjoying a great football game with a good bourbon. So while you're watching the Superbowl, think about it. You're actually kind of witnessing a little bit of spirits history too, because I'm sure we're going to see some cool spirits ads. Let's just hope they're not blocking. And that's this week's above the char Hey, if you want to learn more about the history of bourbon and advertising, check out my book bourbon, the rise fall and rebirth of American whiskey and make sure you're subscribing to my YouTube channel and checking out my new podcast. Just search my name Fred minich. Until next week, 9:00 Cheers 9:04 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon getting in Fred here today. And this is going to be talking to really it's it's kind of like two facets of it. We talk a lot about having retailers on the show and sort of what has that meant in regards to the bourbon boom and the business and, and really how they are changing their strategy of going forward and how they're, they're really marketing the products inside of their their walls to these newer consumers. But on the other hand, our guest today also comes with a pretty storied past. She's had her name on sides of bottles and all these things before that has kind of took her to a new level of fame where she's had write ups in multiple magazines and articles and blogs and stuff like that. So I'm really excited to talk to our guests today. Fred, how did you come to know our guests 10:01 Well, I think, honestly, it was through will it like I, I, I learned of her very early on 10:10 when I was writing my book, whiskey women, and she was kind of became like this, like this kind of like folklore legend, within, like, within the legends of bourbon, you know, I, I find 10:30 our guest today to be one of the most 10:35 underrated heroes of bourbon, and I'm a really American whiskey. And I genuinely mean that because she's very humble. She doesn't like attention. She doesn't want to be in the limelight. She just loves whiskey. And at the end of the day, I think that that's why most of us adore her. Yeah, I think I think he's 11:00 said it, right? It was funny when we were when I was talking to our guest lyndale today about getting her on the podcast and I was trying to say like, oh, like, you know, I promise like it'll be good like, here's our number she goes I don't give a shit about your numbers. You know, it's really funny. She's like, I just shy she didn't care. And and most of the time you talked to a lot of people in this industry and they kind of want to know what your reaches like, what are you going to help them and she's she was she's very humble about it. And hopefully that that's really going to shine through as we start talking here. So without further ado, let's go ahead and introduce our guests. So today on the show, we have Lynette Camacho Santa Ana, she is she the boss of one L's beverage boutique in Birmingham, Alabama. So Linda, welcome to the show. Thank you. Well, we're very excited to have you on and kind of before we get into the story of you and Lynn Nels and the Willetts and all that kind of stuff kind of talk about like your introduction to whiskey. Can you were 12:00 Remember that sort of first bottle that first taste, you know, we've had other distillers on and they say oh, we've had my, my grandpappy gave me a wee nip when I was a little little young lad like what's what's your what's your story there come from a teetotaler background so there was no drinking in my youth had an alcoholic grandfather so my introduction to whiskey was him coming home drunk, beaten the fuck out of my grandma. So there's some reality of our business right there. 12:28 I did not drink until I was 21. So my best recollection of like a first whiskey would have been 12:37 probably jack daniels passed around a campfire, like many folks and in the south. 12:43 kind of talk about your, your, you know, where you come from your youth and all that sort of stuff as well, because I think you kind of talked about a pretty interesting background. I grew up here in Alabama, in North Alabama. I left Birmingham 12:59 in 2000 13:00 went to New York. I was in Birmingham for 10 years before I went to New York. I was in New York for about 10 years before I moved to Mexico. And now back in in Alabama as of 2011. Now hold on Kenny, we have to anytime I talk to someone from Alabama, I gotta find out. Are you an Auburn fan? Or tide fan? May there I don't give a shit. 13:24 Would you say you might be the only Alabama that does not care about college football? Well, I've always been a critical thinker. And growing up I never understood why my family were Crimson Tide fans when nobody in my family had graduated from high school, much less gone to college. So I always question like, Where did that start is some kind of like heritage thing, like who woke up one day and said, Oh, Roll Tide. 13:50 That's hilarious to me. So I kind of want to also touch on sort of the history of you and how the 14:00 Brand kind of got started, can you can you really kind of take us back in the history books and and sort of like where did the idea come from to open up the first boutique? When I mentioned in your My goal was to really just deep dive into the industry and fate and figure out my path and I didn't move to New York in 2000 with the goal of opening the store, but I worked in retail, I worked in restaurant and done bartending. 14:25 I had a master's degree in Public Administration, I was in university admin before I left Alabama and went to New York, but it was time to really pursue my heart and just take the risk to jump into the industry with both feet. So 14:41 after work and pretty much all aspects of the business including sales, 14:47 rep five different wine books in New York 14:51 before I opened the store, and I didn't know whether I was going to do the store or bar first. 14:58 But it just fell into place. 15:00 made sense for me to go with the store first my goal has always been to open an on and off premise business situation at some point but the the on premise never happened in New York. 15:12 And in 2003, I opened the store and Red Hook Brooklyn after finding a little hole in the wall that I could afford to. To get started with it was boarded up. storefront actually had concrete blocks in the window. 15:30 It wasn't just boarded up it was concrete blocks. And the neighborhood that was 15:36 pretty rough around the edges. There was a meth clinic around the corner and 15:41 a whole lot of shenanigans in that neighborhood. The median income was $10,000. three fourths of the population lived in subsidized housing. 15:49 But it felt like the right space for me and they turned out it was incredibly successful in red Hook's crazy now with real estate but um 15:58 Wow, it's it's amazing. 16:00 seem to think about this. But, you know, you were part of the story of turning around. Red Hook. Yeah, I was part of that story. I wasn't. Yeah, I can't take credit for all that went on in Red Hook, but I was definitely a part of it. 16:15 Good or bad. I mean, the word gentrification has lots of connotations and I don't ever feel like a ginger fire because I think there's a certain level of income has to come with that. And I've scrapped a whole lot in my life to be where I am today, but I did come with a trust bond open up anything. 16:35 But yeah, I think the same thing here in my neighborhood and Birmingham, I found this property and it felt right and everybody thought I was crazy, just like they did in Red Hook Brooklyn. And I said, why not? What Why doesn't every neighborhood deserve a good liquor store? No matter what the economics are? Yeah. What were those early days like me who was like your average customer? What were you selling? There in Red Hook? What was that like? 17:00 was all over the place and it's really funny to go back and look, one day I run across some some old notes from the like the first few months it was hilarious because it was like 17:14 well painted my nails sold a bottle of Pappy 17:21 was just like slow and sleep because I nobody knew me you know and opening here in Birmingham was just like, night and day like we hit the ground running and we've been just packed from the beginning. But um, you know, our early customers were a lot of neighbors in Red Hook, spanning the demographics, black and brown and young and old and all economics. And then once people discovered what I was doing, it just became like this Mecca destination spot where people came from all over New York as well as you know, when I'd be trapped people be traveling to New York, they make the effort to come out Red Hook was like a 45 minute 18:00 schlepped from the closest subway stop, so it wasn't an easy place to get to people had to really want to be there. 18:07 Now in that first in that first year, like we we see on the nightly news of, of liquor store robbing robberies all the time, and that was certainly the neriah at the time when you you mentioned, you know, some of the shenanigans that were going on when you were moving in. Did you ever have any incidents early on or was there any like times you you like you were afraid to open up or closed or anything like that because of I never had any crime and I fully believe that you attract what you put out. And if you walk in fear, then you attract reasons to be afraid. I walked out of that store many nights with thousands of dollars after midnight and walked in my apartment. I never had anybody bother me. And this is a great story. I love telling this story because there were you 19:00 A lot of people like I said three fourths of the neighbor population lived in New York's biggest housing project 19:05 and there was a gentleman who came in the store in the the early days of it opening and 19:13 you know, the kind of guy that might my warning bells would that you know, you get the racist shit with you grits everybody does it don't matter what how much you gonna say you ain't racist. We all have stupid, runs their heads, he walks in the door and I was like he's backed me up. 19:29 Gold grill he just looked like he was ready to come in there and race somehow with me. I'm 19:36 trying to just suppress all the crap that was running through my head and treat him like I was going to treat anybody else and he became a great customer. He was a man of few words. He would bring his friends in. He bought the banana vodka to begin with. We finally moved him up the Shark Bay so 19:53 he's buying like sharp I blood orange like it 19:56 but the end of that story is 20:00 One night, we got over here him talking to some friends. And he said, 20:06 Yo, man, have you been to that woman's store? She treats you with respect. There's no bulletproof glass, and she's got really nice things in there. Boom. I mean, 20:20 here's a man living in the housing projects. And it looks like he might be the kind of guy who's gonna like, take you down. And yeah, he wants to be treated with respect, just like anybody else. 20:30 Yeah. 20:32 And again, I think that kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier. And just, you know, the personality you kind of show it through there and what that means. But you know, one thing I kind of want to touch on one more time before we go too much into the your time here in New York. Because you said that you were going to go all in, but what was what was that like? pivotal moment or what was that idea that said, Yeah, I do want to go all in. Because you know, you had you had come from a background that 21:00 Didn't have any any alcoholic you know you didn't drink anything growing up you kind of abusive in the grandfather era. So kind of talk about like what made you want to do that as well? Well, I got custody of 14 year old sister when I was 21 years old and 21:17 I needed like many people who get into the liquor business and some form of bartending to make money and so I was bartending and cocktail waitressing on the side, just have some income to better support our household. 21:32 got bitten by the bug and for years, I just kind of dabbled in that way. I wasn't doing it full on. 21:40 But you know, sitting in my office at university one day pushing a bunch of papers around my desk, I realized I was really spending a whole lot of my office time plucking off and researching drinks. 21:53 I was like, you know, maybe I need to really rethink this had a very cushy job with great benefits, but I'm 22:00 Friend of mine who's a librarian once gave me a book. It's been around for a zillion years in a million iterations called What color is your parachute. And if you actually go through that book and you do all the exercises, which are not easy, it really makes you sit and dig deep. It will give you an idea of what your heart's passion is career wise. And so at the end of that, I was like, I need to be in the liquor business, and I need to move to New York. So I literally just like yeah, I quit my job, sold my house, sold my car, and then packed a moving truck and went to New York. But now 22:33 as there's often in a story that involves involves New York, there's there's a romance aspect of that because I was dating a guy long distance for a long time in Indiana, and he had to said, let's finally get together. We've been together for four years. He's like, you want to go to Atlanta or New York and I was like, fuck Atlanta, let's move to New York together. And he broke up with me before I actually did the move, but I took red lipstick and wrote on my mirror for me and I did it anyway. 22:58 That's awesome. I mean, cuz 23:00 That's actually I was getting ready to ask like why New York of all places, right? Because sometimes, you know, my wife she spent a an internship in New York one year, it's not an easy place to live it'll it'll chew you up and swallow you up because it's, it's, it's very, very expensive to live and some of the parts of it and stuff like that. So, interesting story and just, you know, if you want to be in the liquor business, because everybody wants to be in New York, so you have tremendous access to things but um, I went to New York when I was 18 years old or seven, I was 17 for a high school senior trip, and it was the first place I ever felt like I was home. Yeah, I mean, it's it's a melting pot of all kinds of races and cultures and, and everything right there. And I think the one thing that I love about New York is least when you go is you could go to a different restaurant every day, your life and you could never run out of places to go eat. Yeah, I wish you could run out of money. Yesterday real quick. 23:54 Well, you could live in New York. I mean, yeah, everybody wants talk about rent and real estate, but you can live in New York. 24:00 economically. I mean, I did it for years. Hmm. Alright, so let's get back to whiskey business here. So what was let's let's talk about, you know, it's a package store. And we understand that most of the time that it's not whiskey that sells and keeps the door open. It's everything else that's that's around there as much as Fred, to his chagrin, he has to understand how that works, right. But kind of talk about now, unless maybe unless you live now. So kind of talk about like, was there a, like a niche or a market for whiskey that you saw when you were pushing it, like kind of talk about how you you started getting into that business? My main thing was how I started focusing on bourbon. When I opened my store. I didn't know shit about bourbon. That's just being honest. But it was my Southern connection. And so when I was sitting down and just trying to like, vision board, my store concept was like, it just makes sense for me to make a big focus 25:00 Because of this store be my Southern connection. And so of course, you know, bourbon, why else not? Um, so, you know, those first month the store was incredibly slow and I would, we were open till midnight, things were definitely slow from 10 to midnight. So every night 10 to midnight, I would pop sounds and taste it and I be on straight bourbon calm, like, What the hell was everybody saying? What is this, you know, get out there. Just try to like, soak up as much as I could. And 25:29 it just sort of, you know, I was preaching bourbon before it would became cool. And it wasn't even that, you know, I wasn't like trying to create a trend or whatever. I was just really just trying to be true to myself and raise. Well, I think if you're on straight bourbon, you were one of the early people that were really talking about it. I mean, that's that's the big board, if you will, well, you know, it was General Nelson. Everybody would gather for every bourbon festival and and so did you kind of foster because I know that a lot of people from straight bourbon still hang out there. 26:00 They'd still do the the kbF kind of gatherings and stuff like that. It Were you a part of that that early group in those sort of gatherings too. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you know, I always had rumors. 26:14 Yeah, Sam I met Chuck Cowdery. We had his 26:19 straight bourbon book launch at one of the members houses there in Kentucky and 26:25 but once the store became so busy, it was just impossible for me to stay as active on the board. 26:30 I had to pull away of course, I couldn't, couldn't sit around and fuck off on the computers. 26:38 Absolutely. And so I guess was that just business taking off just in general? Because you had mentioned at the very beginning? Yeah, you painted your nails soda bottle. And then I guess I guess at some point you hit like the inflection point. Yeah, I made. A mentor told me when I opened you're going to think you're dying for three years. And then something magical happens in the third year. 27:00 And that's exactly what happened. It was like, third anniversary came around and then all of a sudden they just took off. 27:08 So you start getting into whiskey. Talk about like the selection that you you started off with and did it grow over time like as you got into bourbon and you tried to 27:20 get my hands on in New York, and there's, you know, a lot of availability there. And it didn't matter what it was. You know, if it said Barban on it up, put it on my shelf. 27:31 We did what we call cats and dogs, tastings and do whatever it wasn't just all about, you know, trying to have Julian Van Winkle come in store. Um, you know, even a funny story. The first time I met Julian was at 27:46 one of the whiskey festivals in New York and I was scared shitless 27:51 I was like, I said, I just gotta rock this I just put on some like pink suede pants and black. Hi Oh birds, Walker Banyan. 28:00 A sea of drunken men and walked up to God and and handed him my business card and said, You don't know me, but you need to and I just walked away. 28:09 We, you know, made friendships over the years. And we tell these stories, and it's hilarious, but he was like, I just like, hell is this. 28:18 So yeah, we came to my store, and we did a bottle signing in those early days. And I had people just like, packed and then the black cars came from lower Manhattan. And he just was looking at me, he's like, what the hell, I've never done an event like this. And I was like, well get ready. It's common. If you don't know it, you're about to just be blown away and he was like, Okay. 28:42 So, you know, I was an early believer in what he was doing with the Pappy label, and when I close the store 2009 I still had I still had Pappy on the shelf. I started right around the show. Wow. You know, it was that in my basement for years. 28:58 So speaking of Red Hook, right 29:00 Let's let's get into that. How did that happen? Uh, much in the same way as anything. I believe it happens. It just happens naturally. That wasn't anything I clamored for drew and I became friends through the industry. 29:16 I remember the first time I met him, he came to one of the whiskey festivals in the room was all a buzz because, you know, Evan had been a hermit for so long. And he was there's a Causeway near Oh my god. Andrew, like me was very Matter of fact, just like, cut through the bullshit, just tell things like it was and we hit it off, stayed in touch. And once I think we were just like hanging out in Bardstown and he said you should do we should do a barrel we should we should do a label for you. 29:45 And we didn't did and wasn't a whole lotta not a whole lot of thought process. Just say Sure. Why not. Let's 29:53 kind of created this iconic label. You know, first of all, Red Hook ride just has such a 30:00 Beautiful name to it. And even if you're not familiar with the Red Hook area, like you could live in Boise, Idaho and not be familiar with that area, you're like, wow, Red Hook is such a cool name. And then you see that and you see that arm with the tat it just was that your idea? I mean, who came up with the name and that art? I came up with the name because I was trying to do something to honor my neighborhood. 30:26 Amanda alliteration, so that was a natural thing. 30:31 The artwork was the the Brooklyn artists who did my postcard artwork, and I don't know if you ever saw him on postcards, but they were incredibly racy. 30:42 He was just hilarious and he would always push even for me would push my boundaries of racy 30:49 that 30:51 I was talking to marketing forums about design and the label and he just showed up and he was like, Can I give it a go? Can I just like, throw something that 31:00 Gather and you tend to whether you like it or not, before you like commit to these big firms to design a label for you. And he showed up at the store one day, and he was like, Well, you know, I'm trying to be you, you're trying to be true to the neighborhood. I call it red and grind like to be true to the history of the neighborhood. And 31:16 this being on the waterfront of Brooklyn and stevedores being a part of the history of, you know, big burly man on the Datsun loading ships and whatnot. And so yeah, he just presented it and I was like, done. That's the label right there. 31:30 I mean, seriously, it is. It is a kind of a showstopper, you're walking around, you see that label, even if you don't know anything about whiskey, or you want to taste it, you want to look at that beautiful piece of art, because that's what it is. It's art. So it's gorgeous. Yeah, he was so much fun to work with and just trying to do things outside the box. I mean, there's so many boring whiskey labels out here. 31:54 I'm working on another one right now. That's going to really make you 32:00 laugh a lot. Oh, they like nails crazy as hell. 32:05 It took a break. She was like, we just got to do this. And it's using a local artist here in Birmingham. 32:11 And I'm keeping it under wraps for that. 32:14 Well give us till the end of the show to get it out of you. 32:19 Take us take us through the process of selecting the whiskey for Red Hook, right because yes, the label is gorgeous. But I've got Red Hook rise one of the top five rise I've ever tasted. I mean, it's it's incredible. So take us through selecting that whiskey. As you know there were four barrels and the first barrel drew a night with a couple other folks are just in the warehouse, literally like just walking 32:50 over barrels and 32:53 popping bongs and tasting whiskey and passing it around like yes, no, yes. No, yes. No. And that number 33:00 One is still my favorite of all four barrels. I mean you know what's really just being able to paint kind of the cream of the crop the the barrel was phenomenal. Do you remember some of the the ages that were on these? Cuz I can't I can't bring up my notes right? That first one was 23 years and the rest were 24 you know, not a lot of people know that to make happy 2030 stocks. I don't even drink it. 33:26 The age of bourbon it at that level is usually mean it's over worded and it won't hold up in a glass. tell people all the time you can spend a fortune on Patrick 23 like let it sit on your counter for half a second come back and it's like, you know, oxidized and cloudy and funky. 33:43 But you know what made that whiskey so special with that he said they had dumped the barrels that they had initially bought and refilled bourbon barrels with the rye so that whiskey could sit there for a little longer at that age. 34:00 not be so over the top with wood. And we didn't really talk about that we didn't market it. But that that's one thing that made those all those barrels so special. And then the, you know, it's been so long I don't remember who was with me on each pit, but at one point I drove down with Don les from New York who had worked with me a little bit in the shop, and he's now you know, cocktail rock. He's like a Barton and God is he's amazing. And I really treasure him. He came down with me and another. Another guy got started just kind of working with me in the shop. We had one at one point. They each came I can't remember which barrel that was. 34:46 It's been so many good barrels. He came. Well, when he was there. I remember you know, we were just passing glass around. We all had to agree on it. It was you know, it was I had to pass my lips first and I thought it was worthy and then I passed 35:00 sit around and we were all like, man, yeah. Or maybe it had to be like a like all out like, Yeah, that one. So very scientific process kind of. 35:09 It sounds like exactly what happens in barrels selections nowadays. So it's just, you just, you know, you just had the luxury of being in there quite early when Yeah, like that was around. Yeah, yeah, that's never gonna happen again. You know, I've had so many people reach out to me. There's a store in Red Hook that asked me if they could buy the rights to it. And I was like, dude, that's not going to exist anymore. I that label is done. There's a Red Hook rye beer. Like if somebody's been trying to launch that today they'd be sued by somebody making beer that wouldn't like that label to be around. 35:43 So now I'm going to be your agent here the the asking price they so they want to come in and they want to buy that the the Red Hook right rights. What do you think and Kenny started out a 15 million. That a good that a good number? That's up there. 35:58 Right. Maybe maybe five 36:00 That's a five. Okay, so we're going I was going to high. Alright, so now we'll we'll come in and negotiate this for you get a 5 million deal. We won't even we won't even take a cut. We just want the whiskey. 36:14 Well, what Red Hook right? Red Hook right? do you have left? I don't even have any. I don't have any left. I'm not I sold all of it to raise money to finish my store. I had such a struggle getting the money I needed to finish construction. 36:30 It took me seven years to get open here. Wow. I really didn't even realize what I was sitting on. I've been out of it for a bit as a new mom and haven't been out of the country for two years. And my ex husband kept saying you have got all this whiskey out. You have no idea. It's like everybody at my bar is asking me if you if you'll sell it to them and I'm like whatever. I come on. Got some Pappy and some record Rob big deal. And then one day I called and talked to drew and I was like, Hey, man, I'm really hurt and I need I need to get this business. 37:00 I've been 37:01 divorced and you know, things were really tough. It's a single mom. And he's like, Well, I know, Doug sold some of his bottles for like 3700 or something. So I know you can can get around that, you know, and I put the whole set of four out 37:17 bottles number two, and I couldn't get anybody to offer me more than 20,000 for all four. And I had everybody under the sun messaging me and, you know, some even like calling me names. It was it was a side of the sex is bullshit in this business that I hadn't been exposed to in a long time and kind of threw me I was so disrespected in that process. And you know, and then you see now like those same guys who were like, call me a con or trying to sell for number two's for $20,000 or turn around now and sell one for 16. 37:52 So I'm like, Okay, well, I'll just stick to my retail and y'all can play around with the bootleg. And I'm done with that. Yeah. 38:00 Isn't for that is unfortunately a really 38:04 nasty side of our culture that you know it's very much very pocketed to the enthusiast side like you don't really see that but I'm sorry you went through that I really am sorry you went through that as as as somebody who loves this community and 38:23 i'd love I'd love it if that would stop but sadly it won't and and i will tell you that they they attacked you for being a woman you know they say similar things to man they just that I've seen this time and time again and those groups is like when it comes to this stuff people go overboard and the private messages and then they get very dirty very mean. And I'm very sorry you had to go so different from the environment of like a straight bourbon com or bourbon enthusiast calm experience I'd had. Well, yeah, there 39:00 Be a TIFF, Aaron there, but it was overall a very civilized and yeah, the level of bourbon mania going on in these secret pages is something that really disgusts me. And here's the thing to live now, how much of those people really know? And what do they really add to the conversation? Yeah, I mean, just wanting money grew, you know, Drew and I've had many conversations about that kind of thing. And you know, I'm grateful. I'm grateful that that exists in many ways. 39:31 Because I did end up selling my bottles and that money put the roof on my store, but at the same time, there's a I don't know, I've always been about building the relationships. It's never been about just the business or barely whiskey for me. And when it gets to this level of just doggy dog, who's who's got the biggest collection and who can get the most money for it. I just bores me. 39:57 Yeah, absolutely. And it's 40:00 And I think you'd kind of hit the are you said it right there. Last time I checked, I think some of those red hooks were 15 even up to 18,000 bottles, something like that. And I guess like what is what's your thought on that valuation or price? 40:19 With the careers of master distiller spanning almost 50 years, as well as Kentucky bourbon Hall of Famer and having over 100 million people taste his products. Steve nalli is a legend of bourbon who for years made Maker's Mark with expertise and precision. His latest project is with Bardstown bourbon company, a state of the art distillery in the heart of the bourbon capital of the world. They're known for the popular fusion series, however, they're adding something new in 2020 with a release named the prisoner. It starts as a nine year old Tennessee bourbon that has been finished in the prisoner wine companies French oak barrels for 18 months. The good news is, you don't have to wait till next year to try it. Steve and the team at Bardstown bourbon company have teamed up with rack house whiskey club rack 41:00 Whiskey club is a whiskey Month Club on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer. Their December box features a full size bottle of Bardstown suffusion series, and a 200 milliliter bottle of the prisoner. There's also some cool merchant side. And as always, with this membership shipping is free. Get your hands on some early release Bardstown bourbon by signing up at rack house whiskey club.com use code pursuit for $25 off your first box 41:30 what is what's your thought on that valuation or price? I mean, is that something that I know you probably never dreamed it would be like that but like what is your What is your really like your gut thought? Do you really think you really think it's worth that you kind of like man, it's just that's just crazy shit. Like, you know, you've heard this a million times is anything worth it? I mean, that's object and if you think it's worth it, you got that kind of cash and it's worth it but you know, I spent 41:58 $17,000 on my 42:00 Business property $5,000 on my house I'm living in. When I say these kind of numbers, it makes me quiver a little bit because I'm like, wow, like that's, that's like a place somebody could live and you're just going to piss that in a couple of hours. So yeah, it's a little disturbing sometimes. But then, you know, if that's the kind of cash flow you have, who am I to judge you for spending that kind of money on? escape? I mean, there's people who had that's just a blip in their bank account. So you know, I bless it and saying, may you be even even better and and more well off to benefit somebody. 42:35 So Kenny, there's a retailer in California selling a bottle of Red Hook rye for $30,000. Well, you say selling they might have it out there, but that doesn't mean it's being bought. And it's just like the guy 42:51 in New York with 50. I mean, Lee Lee taqman bought that set that I just mentioned, the number two's he bought some other bottles. 43:00 For me as well. And then when you put that Red Hook where I set out $475,000 on this website, it went like wildfire. And I messaged him, I was like, like, I like you. You spent less than $4,000 a bottle on some of that stuff. So like, Where's that number coming from? And he just laughed. He's like, Man, it's just marketing. Everybody's talking about it. And it went viral. And he was a marketing genius for doing it. He brought ton of people to his business because they were all like, Oh, my God brought $475,000 That's crazy. But you know, people came to the store to talk about it or see what else he had. Somebody sent me a link the other day Christie's auction house had a Red Hook. Right? Let's starting bed of 20,000. 43:40 Okay, I think we've we've talked about the Red Hook. rhyolite and just the crazy valuation goes, I know bottle for 50,000 Okay, get my checkbook out. 43:51 got here. 60. Okay, well, let's, uh, let's wait until the next. Maybe that should just be like the new index like it's the Red Hook right? 44:00 index to see like how how crazy is the bourbon Richter Scale getting year after year? Maybe that's what you should do with your stuff. Guineans, the just start pricing it 1000 to $5,000 a bottle and then people go crazy for it. See what happens. I'm all I'm all about it 44:16 is Red Hook ride number one I saw bows for $75 a bottle 44:24 but even back then, this was what what year was this? 2008 nine um I think the rennaker I started in what was it? 2007 I can't remember the year but yeah, even back then 75 is a probably might have been a lot for a lot of folks, you know? Well yeah, I mean, it was but a barrel for went up to 350 and people were like, Whoa, she's getting crazy. 44:52 And so let's let's kind of like move that forward because you know, those those bottles help build the business down in Alabama. So kind of 45:00 Talk about you know, seven years to get this this up and running kind of that. That's That's a long time to really work on something I mean, kind of talk about what was there, you know, other than getting money I mean, were there any other kind of like hiccups and hurdles that you had to face along the way to make that happen? Because everybody knows that an Alabama it's really easy to just open up liquor stores. Opening is pretty easy. I mean, it's, it's not difficult to open a private store here. 45:28 The liquor licensing process is not dreadful at all. Um, 45:34 I figured what control states it'd be a nightmare. It's not at all and it was even cheaper to open here than it was to open in New York as far as licensing and everything. You know, the challenges were it was mostly financial. And I said I would never do this again, unless I own the property. I bought the property thought that it would be pretty easy to get financing having done this before, and I learned real quickly that since I'd been closed for so long, it was considered 46:00 At a new startup, I brought my husband here from Mexico and we had to go through naturalization for him. I got pregnant, you know, there was just a whole lot of stuff on my plate, then, you know, it was a great lesson and what a woman goes through when you decide to start life again 46:21 as a single mother, because 46:25 it was very difficult for me to 46:30 one make living while I was trying to open the store and there were plenty of people were like, yeah, we don't mind you know, come up here and Bartana bartended a shit ton of private parties. 46:39 Like, pamper myself out made things work. But the financing like so many people be like, Oh, yeah, you know what you're doing. But you know, once you've been open for three years, 46:50 get money from us. That's the classic you know, like once you're once you don't need it, you can get it and that there's a lot of systemic racism and I call that out regularly. 47:00 And that doesn't go over real well. Neighborhoods who are predominantly African American really struggle with getting investment money from banks oftentimes. So yeah, there was a whole lot of challenges to jump through. But yeah, I just took it. I took it one day at a time, one moment at a time. And it took me seven years, but I did it. 47:21 I'm glad you did. And I'll tell you, I don't know 47:27 the strength that you 47:30 have exuded in that timeframe. Most people would give up. 47:35 Yeah, it was really tough. But you know, it made me go deep. And I think the biggest thing and going through that challenge. 47:45 I, I had become a caricature of myself in New York in many ways. I had built this business and I had built this character called lamelle. And going through what I did to get open again here, I feel like I am more 48:00 true to myself and more rooted and grounded in the core of my being and ever before so that's good there's always some good to come through those difficult times. So I'm just just just thinking about if I were to put myself in in your shoes if I if I were a single parent and having to go through all that and face the banking challenges I probably would have moved on to something else. And and so I kind of like just the human element of us all you know why why didn't you give up? Why was this store so important to you to start? 48:39 Um, I knew the impact this business can have on this neighborhood and I'm I'm very much a believer and impact of business on social justice have always been that way. And this neighborhood when I came to visit it to look at this property just grabbed me by the heart and wouldn't let go and neighbors just were like, We need you here and we're behind 49:00 You here and I had neighbors who said when I first came here 49:05 I didn't even know me while you're trying to figure stuff out here live in my house or here we've got this you know, I showed up here with a suitcase and next thing I know like people had just like showed up with stuff to like help me get through 49:19 that moving from Mexico period. So I felt that in Red Hook to there was a sense of community and so there was Yeah, there I really did feel like I was being pulled 49:32 by higher calling through that whole process. 49:36 And I knew that was going to be bigger than what I even understood and I many times, I've had conversations with beautiful souls like Brit calls me and just sit and say I just in tears, like, I don't know why this is happening the way it is, but there is something on the other side of this that I meant to do. And 49:57 one of my big things with opening the cafe constant 50:00 Next to the store that I feel so strongly about is that this business is ready to be turned on its head. And we've beat up people in hospitality. We overwork them. We don't respect homelife, you have souls like Sean Brock who claim to shit up and he's been really outspoken about this too. 50:21 We've lost a lot of people in this business. People don't want to talk about it, but it's over consumption and drug use and just not taking care of themselves. And I really want my whole business concept with the store and the cafe concept next door to me about hope and healing and and how can you have an alcohol business and I'm still figuring this out, but have the message that you can build community around consumption and it not get to the level where we're fucking ourselves. 50:51 And I know that's deep but that's where I am. That's where we need to go. I mean, in the last 50:57 you know, from Sasha 51:00 kreski to 51:03 you know, the gentleman we lost and Miami to Anthony Bourdain, and we've lost so many iconic people in the hospitality space. And, you know, I've been covering this this industry for a long time. And we're looking at tells you the cocktail. And almost a quarter of the seminars are about taking care of yourself. So the industry knows that we have to change or we won't have an industry anymore, or at least we won't have the talent. Yeah, no, I'm very thankful that you've seen this and you're pushing for it well, and as a mom, too, I see how hard it is for women to stay in this business and raise a family because I don't care how wonderful you are as a dad. Nine times out of 10 the woman is still doing most of the childcare. And so to still be like the one who's taking care of the babies and more than likely doing the laundry and washing the dishes and running a business or staying in you know, as a manager of a restaurant or 52:00 Whatever it is, it's really difficult for women and I, that's another aspect of what I'm hoping to do with this businesses is proved that it can be done in a way that respects and supports women. You know, I was a breastfeeding mom when I was working 52:16 behind the bar and, like, who offers a woman pump breaks behind a bar? Nobody. You know, my breasts are being gorgeous. I'm like, freaking out, like, What am I supposed to do? Like, like, how do I had a breast pump in the bathroom and a paper towel holder. 52:34 Those conversations need to be had, you know, it's not just about young folks that we just like we're out to their bodies won't handle it anymore. We run everybody out of the business that you know, has a lot to contribute to the business. So 52:47 I have a proposal for you. What's that? Let's do a seminar tells the cocktail next year. Oh, Lord, I boycotted towels back in 2008. 52:57 I know it's now. Yeah, it's just 53:02 Kenya, I gotta tell you, it's it's this kind of a passion that is really outside of whiskey. But within whiskey that to me, is is the future of our culture. You know, so our culture cannot live on whiskey alone. It has to it has to come together as a community and this recognition that there's potentially substance abuse problems. That is huge. That is huge. And she brought up Sean Brock, you know, friend of mine friend of yours, and, you know, he is he's had a very public battle with alcoholism. I mean, Sean, that guy can't even go to the grocery store without getting in the New York Times. But yeah, it's covered a lot but I want to come back to you, a little you something you brought up as you is. 54:00 Is the woman angle and I'm very passionate about this of like, you know creating a an environment in the whiskey industry that is women feel comfortable in its big reason why I wrote the book I did. And then I love going back to your label you kind of have a little bit of the Rosie riveter angle feel to it. Do you feel like it is better today than it was 1015 years ago 54:32 as a woman, uh, taking out the the creepy guys on on the bourbon secondary markets, but do you feel like today is better than it was 1015 years ago as a woman in whiskey. Although, of course there's been tremendous progress and we have more women in the business, you know, in leadership capacity than we ever have. Probably. 54:53 Okay, I mean, of course the answer is yes. Yeah. And it's it's made progress. I mean, there's still like a shit ton of rain. Yeah. 55:00 donating 55:02 what are some areas we need improvement upon? 55:05 marketing? It's you know, I'm sure you hear this from so many women. We're all tired of saying the good old boy marketing when Matthew McConaughey got involved with wild turkey there's always Oh, I'm gonna reinvent wild turkey I'm like, oh, it still looks like I got all boy backslapping club. Okay, well how was that? So like groundbreaking. 55:25 I mean, commercials are beautiful but like what what did that what boundary did that push? 55:32 marketing? Yeah, I mean, it doesn't need to be like, Oh, look at this beautiful space drinking some whiskey. And it needs to be real, it needs to be wrong. 55:43 That's one of the in marketing is powerful marketing not only with with real women, but people of color. 55:52 let's let's let's talk about some, you know, LGBTQ up in here to just throw all that up in there. And so we're just starting to scratch the surface of 56:00 Conservative whiskey world. I agree. Do you see a lot of that today and hopefully we can see more of that change in progress you know as as this comes along and I think having a voice like yours being really outspoken in you know, there's there's a lot of industry people that listen this podcast and they're going to hopefully take note of that too and, and kind of see that change. But we are trying to work on website ideas. My website is still a landing page and looks like shit. But I'm, you know, talking to companies about website ideas. And I'm saying the same kind of things. I'm just saying to you like now we need images, images that reflect my customers, you know, why can't we have two black hands toasting or 56:42 two women looking like they're celebrating their wedding? And then the market marketing guys at these website companies are like, Well, I mean, those images don't really exist for us and I'm like, Okay, well then let's take some frickin pictures. Let's create the images. I don't just give me this excuse some light. You don't have those images and some stock model. 57:01 Yeah, that's powerful. Like what we say what becomes the norm? I've seen a lot of those photos, I think you need new marketing people exactly right. This is why my webpage still sucks because I haven't found the right company. 57:13 So we are kind of running up on the top of this out real quick. And I kind of want to circle back to just to your story again to kind of wrap this up and, and so seven years the doors open, kind of talk about what business has been like because you mentioned the first store it was kind of like all right, it'll build up there's an inflection point like and you said this one was just hit the ground running on day one, kind of kind of talk about what what that's been in, you know, and whether it's been a blessing or curse with work and everything else. It's been a huge blessing. I'm very grateful. And it's 57:48 it's just a I'm amazed when I opened in New York, really work the store pretty much by myself for three years, and my boyfriend at the time when he got off work would come in and I put in time and 58:00 Well, 58:01 but it took really in New York three years before I could, I could hire a full on team and I have two full time staff right now and I'm interviewing to hire two more so I have a total of four in the first year I'm already there. I'm at sales and in one year here that it took me four years to get to in New York City. Wow, that's impressive to be able to do that in Birmingham in New York, and you know, I just did my employees annual reviews 58:34 with a sip of Appleton 50. No Berman 58:38 It's okay. You're still speaking to Fred spreads heartstrings there 58:43 15 minute good. It wasn't oh my god is so good. I'm makes me want to definitely go do a staff trip to Jamaica. 58:52 Yeah, one of the things that came out of that it's my staff's like, you know, you have kind of been backslapping that you've not been in the store. 59:00 Managing because in New York It was very very difficult for me to walk away and let employees do their thing. Because I had just like I Uz that store for so long I mean I'm many times I slept on the floor of that store and got up and just kept going. But to see the success and just for me to be at a place of growth to 59:20 I've been able to let go and trust employees already to start managing things. It took me years and New York to get to 59:27 it. So we're going to start working on the cafe concept. That's the next thing and that's going to be probably about two years out but it's a huge project we're taking on a big Greek Revival on the store calm it's right next to the store. That's going to be pretty amazing project. 59:49 JOHN brought come down and play with me Ben. 59:53 sent a few text messages. I did but you know, we haven't snagged him yet. 1:00:00 So we had, we did have one question in the chat that came from Mikey Conrad. And you know, because you've got this history of kind of opening up businesses that are more like in impoverished areas. And he asked a question, are you working with other organizations or partnering with other stores to help in that sort of same socio economic background to help start their business and Kickstarter, Kickstarter it off the ground as well? That's a great question. And it's something that I do feel very strongly about. Um, there's been some talk about trying to form like a Business Association, the Merchants Association in this area, this area, does not have a whole lot of business at all, the old business quarter is pretty much gone. 1:00:39 There's a lot of talk of with connecting our neighborhood, we have millions of dollars of deltan development going on a mile down the road. So there's been a lot of talk of time to connect that and 1:00:51 how we do that to keep mom and pop businesses a part of that and not just the whole bunch of chains. But, you know, my goal, my long term goal is to really get to a point where I can mentor 1:01:00 And help other especially women get started in business in a way that I think is so needed. Women have got to support women financially, and getting our businesses off the ground because we understand each other in a way nobody else is. 1:01:17 As far as the I especially, like, balancing home wife and kids and everything, and, um, yeah, I don't have any definite plans, but that's something that I think a lot about. I haven't had it haven't had a free moment to focus on that right now, but I will in time. 1:01:34 That's great. And so as we close this out, I got one more question to ask of you. So, you, you went and you sold all your red Hook's, you know, I'm sure that there's some part of you that that is that has a little bit of a hole in your heart, but maybe maybe that that whole sort of getting filled by knowing that you're building something bigger and better. And then earlier this year, you had done two more well, epics, you done your light side and your dark side. Tell me you kept at least a few bottles of that, and you're not going to 1:02:00 You're not gonna do the same thing again. I did. I had a few friends here like Don't be stupid this time. And I wouldn't call it being stupid. I mean, I just was like, whew, everybody enjoy the enjoy the whiskey before. 1:02:12 But I didn't keep a lot. I can't bottles one through six of each one. 1:02:18 So what is the what is the new project you have? Remember, this won't come out for a long time. So no one's gonna know for a while. I mean, I've talked about it somewhat. I'm not going to give out all the details. But um, there's a distiller here in Alabama that I'm excited about stuff that link and yeah, he's cool project we're working on together. 1:02:38 No, it's not going to be a 23 year old rye. But I went down and met him and tasted out of barrel and he had it he had one barrel it really pulled my heartstrings that it's going to be fun. You know, he sent me some stuff to that, to me was really reminiscent of a couple honey barrels that I'd had from from 1:03:00 Well it so I can see. I could see I could see like your your heartstrings lining up. They're like no, he's a good distiller. He's a good person. And again, it's I like with Dre, that project just happened because we were building a friendship and happen naturally. So I'm not out here trying to replace a Red Hook ride, that's never gonna happen. I just I felt the butterflies when I went down and met with Seth and so I've told him when I feel this feeling, I gotta follow up on it. So let's make this magic happens. That's fantastic. So as we kind of wrap this up here, at least we got a little bit of teaser. We'll see what's happening next. Maybe we'll get back with you here in a year and we'll kind of see where you are with that project and be good to get a kind of 1:03:44 a whole full circle feedback here. But for anybody that wants to go to the nails beverage boutique and find out more about it, how do they do that? 1:03:54 Like I said, the website sucks. Our Facebook page is very active. All our social media is atla now's the him at La 1:04:01 ls BH am? And what's your address because I have a feeling that someone's going to change the direction of where they're driving right now as you're listening to this more. We're at 12 32nd Street North we're a mile up from Top Golf. 1:04:17 There you go. Get your pint and head on over to Top Golf. Save yourself a few bucks. You're trying to fight that in little 1:04:25 man Come on. Oh, no pints there. Okay, never mind. Never mind. Bad Kinney or boozy, or boozy. We don't sell pints over. I call it cheeky. There you go. 1:04:36 So what I want to say thank you again so much for coming on the show. I mean, for us, I mean, it was a I had met you originally at the the willit bar opening about a year maybe two years ago now. And and really this opportunity to kind of really sit down capture your story, and really be able to spread the message of really what you're doing not only just for whiskey whiskey is one aspect but the human 1:05:00 element and what you're doing to really promote that. I think it speaks a lot for yourself and and what you're trying to do to help impact and change the industry. You know, it's just one person trying to try to really kind of scale that up too. So thank you again for coming on the show and doing that. Thank you for being a gentleman in your chase to get us to sit down together. Absolutely. I do my best for that. And if you want to know more about us, you can follow bourbon pursuit on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, if you liked the show, you want to support the show, you want to ask questions and see this live as we do these recordings, you go and support us@patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit. And if you want some good reading material, make sure you go check out bourbon plus magazine as well. We've got a we've got some things going on with our Patreon community and getting perpend plus subscription. So make sure you go and do that. Thank you everybody that was watching this live. It's been a pleasure. And we'll see everybody next week. Cheers. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

What happens when you get master distillers from two largest rivaling brands together? Actually, some pretty good jokes. Fred Noe, Master Distiller at Jim Beam, and Jeff Arnett, Master Distiller at Jack Daniel’s, take the stage at Bourbon and Beyond to field questions asked by Fred Minnick. They talk about BBQ, celebrities, mash bills, the Lincoln County Process, and if Jack Daniels is actually a bourbon. Bourbon and Beyond 2019 will take place September 20th through the 22nd so if you want to be there in person to hear sessions like today’s podcast, go get yours at BourbonandBeyond.com. Show Partners: The University of Louisville now has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at business.louisville.edu/onlinespirits.  In 2013, Joe Beatrice launched Barrell Craft Spirits without a distillery or defied conventional wisdom. To this day, his team sources and blends exceptional barrels from established producers and bottles at cask strength. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Check out Bourbon on the Banks in Frankfort, KY on August 24th. Visit BourbonontheBanks.org. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about drinking in moderation. What kind of music have your brands been part of? What is your BBQ connection? What is the history of your distillery? What is your mash bill? What is your proof point off the still? What do you think of the Lincoln County process? How do you train your tour guides? Tell us about Gentleman Jack. Tell us about Jim Beam. Is Jack Daniels a bourbon? Do you ever feel competitive against each other? What does your average day look like? What was it like to hang out with Mila Kunis? What celebrities are connected to Jack Daniels? How often do you introduce new products? 0:00 Hey everybody. If you have a bachelor's degree and live anywhere in the United States, there's now a way for you to take your bourbon education to the next level. The distilled spirits business certificate from the University of Louisville is an online program that can be completed in as little as 15 weeks and will prepare you for the business side of the spirits industry. It's offered by the AA CSP accredited college of business. And this certificate was developed in partnership with industry experts to be one of a kind and it's going to prepare you for your next adventure. Learn more about this online program at business.louisville.edu/online 0:36 spirits Why is that? Why your barbecue sauce the Jim Beam barbecue sauce tastes so good. America's Got Jim Beam in it that's why 0:47 you made for it. And have you had the jab he had the jack daniels barbecue sauce. I'm sure they do. Um, no. I mean, if you had a VDD like Tyson Yeah. 1:00 add Whiskey and anything it's good for 1:16 everybody welcome back. This is Episode 214 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your host Kenny and buckle in strap up whatever it is because we've got a lot of news to roll through. Kentucky al has announced the release of batch number three rye this Kentucky out Kentucky straight rye whiskey carries a 10 year age statement and will be bottled at 114 proof in the press release Dixon dead man who's been on the show previously and episodes 27 and 160 has assumed the title of Kentucky Al's master blender, but he commented, there is a lot of older juice and right number three, but it's the 10 year old stocks that really give it that richer, thicker, syrupy mouthful and bring the blend forward. And as you know by listening to this 2:00 That the youngest whiskey in a blend is the one has to be shown in the label. So this will be making its way out to major markets across the US this month with a suggested retail price of wait for it $199 and 99 cents. Last week I had the opportunity of joining the fine folks over a liquor barn here in Louisville to select the very first of not just any barrels, but the very first barrels from a newly launched single barrel program. From bullet bourbon. We had the opportunity to tour the grounds and do some blending for fun. And during that blending process. There was one that just blew me away. I picked it up and I just knows that and I couldn't set it down. I just kept smelling this bourbon and I kept tasting and I told the master Blender whatever is going on here with sample number six. Just give me this single barrel and call it a day. Come to find out. They gave us samples of 20 plus year stencil well a stock that they had sitting around to just have some fun with blending. But you better believe I took no part in 3:00 lending that in savored every last drop. It was a tease, but a special treat nonetheless to have that experience with those folks there. Then we headed down to the barrel tasting room where we had different barrels and different bottles with different mash bills and different strains to come away with a total of three different barrels. And these will be available at liquor barn locations across the state of Kentucky in a few months, and I'll be sure to let you know when they do drop. Last week we had the opportunity to head over to Bardstown, Kentucky, where we were in a very unique opportunity to select two barrels of Elijah Craig from six that were rolled out. For anyone that has been on a quick pic before you know that three is usually the standard. We are fortunate that the heaven Hill team pulled some strings and got us a six barrel lot. We came away with an 11 and a 12 year old bourbon and both were just killer at barrel proof. But we also proved it down to us bottling proof of 94 just to make sure it's still held up and of course it did look forward to these going on sale to our 4:00 Patreon community in the upcoming few months, and a special shout out to keg and bottle in Southern California for making this all happen. Find out more about our barrel pics and what we have going on@patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit and you can find out more and get bourbon delivered to your door from keg and bottle go to keg the letter in bottle.com. And speaking of barrel pics, we had one go on sale this week, our riff you like a hurricane from new roof is going to be available to purchase to our Patreon community. Now you've heard it on the podcast already but we will be in Frankfurt at bourbon on the banks next week, August 24. Go get your tickets. We hope to see you there because we're going to have our own booth will be talking about bourbon pursuit. However, we will also be sampling our pursuit series for all those who haven't gotten the memo yet. And speaking of pursuit series, it's now official. We will be bottling our first Kentucky bourbon next month that will go on sale sometime in the October timeframe. And we're ecstatic to be the first time 5:00 let you know that we have partnered with Will it distillery to bring this experience to you? I know it's still surreal to even hear myself say that we're partnering with Will it and we purchased two barrels of their high rye bourbon recipe that will be bottled as pursuit series. Cats drink non chill filtered the works, you know how it is in this high recipe. It's not even available to liquor stores or distributors that are selecting their own bullet family private state pics right now. So we feel super excited and super lucky to be able to bring this as a one off offering of what we're able to do. And we selected not just one but two of these barrels two months ago and they just landed our bottling facility this week. We're going to be the first independent bottle of Willett distillate and who knows how many years and we've got more news to announce with this but we're gonna have to make you wait just a little bit longer until we cross our T's and dot our I's. Now today's podcast it was recorded last year at bourbon and beyond in 2018. 6:00 Since we were there, sort of in a passive capacity, we had one session, but we didn't have the ability to kind of record. We got this after the fact and that means we don't have any video. So if you're watching this on YouTube or Facebook, I'm sorry. It's like we're going back one and a half years before we started doing video. But if you're on the road or you're running or you're just listening to audio as usual, then just continue as normal. But as you know, verb and beyond is just around the corner. It's taking place next month in Louisville, Kentucky from September 20 through the 22nd. The festival has expanded from two to three days and you will get the chance to see a lot of familiar faces there. Ryan and I will both be moderating panels. And you've also got the entire roundtable making a presence. Jordan from breaking bourbon, Brian from sipping corn and Blake from bourbon are all leading their own panels and workshops. Of course, you're gonna have Fred Minnick there too. It's an opportunity to drink some bourbon, listen to some bands, go listen to a bourbon workshop or seminar then go back out there and rock out was the headliners. 7:00 This is covered in a single ticket price. So if you want to be there in person to hear sessions like today's podcast, go get yours now at bourbon and beyond.com. We'll see you in Louisville. Also, let's toast a bourbon to the weather gods and hope for no rain and clear skies this year. Now, let's see what Joe from barrel bourbon has for us today. And then you've got Fred Minnick with above the char. 7:25 Hey everyone, Joe here again. In 2013. I launched barrell craft spirits without a distillery and defied conventional wisdom. To this day, my team and I sourcing blend exceptional barrels from established producers and bottle a cast strength. You can find it on the shelves at your nearest retail store. 7:41 I'm Fred making this is above the charm. This past week in the Philippines, a lawmaker put forth a bill to ban the sale serving and consumption of alcohol and alcohol beverages and streets, pathways, plazas, alleys, sidewalks, parks and parking areas. They're building 8:00 leaf is is that this will be a proactive response in the growing problems of alcoholism in the Philippine. And this is a quote directly from a doctor, their alcoholism and violence have clearly become key public health issues that require urgent attention. Hence, it is imperative for the country to initiate a national policy to curb alcohol consumption in public places in quote. So here's the thing Philippines, this has been done before. And it didn't work, prohibition in the United States basically open the world to the mafia. And it also showed that it didn't really curb drinking at all. What it did do was it increased the sale of bad liquor, and people would die from drinking the equivalent of ethanol or gasohol. And today when we see areas where there are dry counties, you have moonshiners, so people will find a way to drink 9:00 And I'll also say this, that the efforts to ban alcohol or alcohol advertising, they're growing. And they're growing because we have never really been able to figure out as a society, how to drink responsibly. So, when you're getting your fellas together your girlfriends together, think about this for a moment, you could be an example used of drinking responsibly. What does that mean? Well, Google drinking in moderation, you definitely don't want to get behind the wheel. To me, a big part of drinking in moderation comes down to the taste. I like to sip and savor and analyze every single molecule that's hitting my palate. And that's been a big reason why I've been able to develop my palate using mindfulness techniques. I also believe that there's a project out there called the mocktail project that would be great to include in your parties that would help push the drinking in moderation and someone sober, doesn't want to have a drink. They can have a 10:00 mocktail that's basically a folk cocktail. That's just as tasty as the cocktail would. And of course, the culture. We live in a society that does not want to educate young people why they cannot drink until they're 21. I have a five year old and he can tell you exactly why he is not able to consume the same bourbon that his father and mother do. Now, I'm not saying that parenting is easy, but I do think it's important that we educate our children that alcohol is not the devil. It is not some evil thing that demons cast upon you and the only way to not be caught up in its evil spell is to avoid it. And all honesty, if we just teach our children that drinking is bad for your body until you reach a certain age and your body is able to handle it. To me that is a more appropriate and honest and truthful way to bring someone up in this world. But 11:00 It's just easier to band stuff. Just ask the Philippines. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Twitter or Instagram at Fred Minnick, that's at Fred Minnick until next week. Cheers 11:18 gentlemen please take your seats to my left here is Jeff our debt master distiller for jack daniels. 11:28 And to my other left, Fred noe master distiller for Jim Beam. 11:37 Gentlemen, it is such a privilege and honor to MC what is an absolutely historic seminar, jack and Jim, what's the difference? The two world best selling American whiskeys. This is awesome. Now, both of you all have had a lot 12:00 of musical connections. Tell us let's see what the difference is starting there. From the music perspective. What kind of music has Jim been been a part of? Well, I guess the first one was my dad met Hank Williams Jr. So it got a little name that's a little name drop right there. And you know we've played with McGovern Gentry for a long time country. And then we're trying to ease into the rock a little bit with Nickelback. And in our latest buddy was a kid rock. So we've, we've kind of hit different john years of music so you like people who like to drink? mostly people like to drink Jim Beam. All right. 12:46 All right, Jeff. Now, I think there's a musician that's pretty well connected the jack daniels. What's the history there? Well, if you go back in our history, it goes all the way to our founder who was pretty world traveled considering he was born. 13:00 In a small town in Lynchburg, Tennessee, so he purchased some instruments he created a group called the silver cornet band had them play on the square in Lynchburg because he learned that music and whiskey and kind of go together. They're both very social. So he's kind of solved the connection. So it began very early for us, but I think the game changer and jack daniels history was back in the 1950s when Frank Sinatra first held up jack daniels on stage, he called it the nectar of the gods. Our sales doubled from 1955 to 1956. But he was a lifelong jack daniels drinker. It was after that as you started to see jack daniels not just don't rock stages and music stages, but also in a lot of movies. But Frank was loyal to death. He literally was buried with a bottle of jack daniels in his casket. So we were honored to come out with a whiskey that that honored his love of the brand a few years ago. Now there's also some photos of like Jimmy Page, drinking. jack daniels backstage, the Rolling Stones. 14:00 Lemmy from Motorhead slash from Guns and Roses. These are people that are pretty iconic, you know in the rock world. And definitely love jack daniels and we have we're very fortunate we've got a lot of people in music who love jack daniels. And once we find that out, we don't feel like they should have to buy jack daniels t shirt, so I write a lot of letters and send out a lot of T shirts to people to thank them for their love. Now, Fred, jack daniels used to employ a guy who made sure that Frank Sinatra always had jack daniels. Has Jim Beam ever done anything like that? What do you mean my chili Goblin like? So there was a gentleman from our buddies right? Frank Sinatra. Never he always had a case of jack daniels nearby. So they employed someone who basically from what I understand, just basically drove around with him made sure he was always with jack daniels are we when people are on tour, whatever market they're in, our sales force shows up and breezes them pretty well. So your 15:01 I haven't heard any of them complain about not getting plenty of Jim Beam. Alright, so that's, that's just a little touch on the music about what's the difference between YouTube. You're also both really big into barbecue. really big into barbecue. Now Jeff, I was a judge with you last year at the big jack daniels BBQ. Tell us about your big barbecue connection is jack daniels. Yes, we the fourth Saturday in October. in Lynchburg. We sponsor what we consider to be the Super Bowl of barbecue. It comes very late in the season for the Kansas City barbecue society circuit. But it's the top 80 teams typically 20 of those have come from outside the US. So they're representing countries like Switzerland, Estonia, Canada, Australia, England, but usually it's about 50 or 60 of the best us teams who show up there to win the jack daniels international Invitational barbecue is a great time. I know and I have served as a judge on 16:00 The shade tree only where I judged the major meat categories, but I could hardly walk. When I got up on the table that day. I did not pace myself very well, but 42 samples in about three hours and you better know what you're doing. So I know we've got some judges out here in the audience today who were looking on who can attest to that. 16:18 Now, Fred, you are a great barbecue pit man. You're also a great ham maker. You've got a personal connection to barbecue and why is that? Why your barbecue sauce? The Jim Beam barbecue sauce tastes so good. Because God ZM Amen. And that's why 16:40 you made for it. And have you had the jab. He had the jack daniels barbecue sauce. I'm sure they do know I mean, if you had ever 16:49 seen it, do you like their Tyson? 16:53 whiskey and anything? It's good Jeffrey, what's wrong with you? 16:58 Does anyone 16:59 know 17:00 Go customer for was over. Yeah, well, I had a plus or minus, you know, I should have said we should have a cuss word counter out there with you. You know, are you sorry, I'm a potty mouth. We can trust Jeff to be a gentleman but Fred boy, he can get go. I'm not a scholar, so don't even go there. 17:18 Now both come from very historic distilleries. Very, very historic. Tell us about how jack Daniel got started. Well, for those who don't know jack daniels life story. He was orphaned at a very young age, so he found himself without either his biological parents when he was a young teenager. 17:38 He was one of 13 children born to his father, one of 10 born to his mother, but he ended up moving away to work for his room and board on a neighbor's farm. That neighbor was a Lutheran minister and a farmer. More importantly, he owned the general store that still stands on the square in Lynchburg today, and of course back in the 1850s and 60s, small town general stores had to serve a lot of functions. 18:00 And that community had to be a small scale department store had to swear you picked up telegrams, but also would be the pharmacy of the community. So jack started out making medicinal whiskey for a Lutheran minister that was sold to the townspeople of Lynchburg at the general store. So from very, very modest beginnings, he was out there for at least a decade perfecting the craft and ultimately bought the distilling equipment and moved it to where we are today and that happened in the 1870s. So you know, in jack daniels history, other than prohibition every drop of jack daniels has been made from a cave spring in Lynchburg, Tennessee. It's one of the things I think that makes us really special. It's one of the reasons why we're is I think, consistent as we are. It's a great water source and and the townspeople of Lynchburg have made it their passion to carry on the mission of jack daniels in his absence since he he passed in 1911. And since since we've been able to become the number one selling American whiskey today. So Fred, you guys also 19:00 Have a lot of your connection to your family's history is also connected to the water. Tell us about that. Yeah, our, I guess my great great great, great grandfather Jacob been migrated into Kentucky a little place called harden Creek. And they were given away land to get people to come this way from the northeast. That's how bad things were back then they were given land away, just to come in here and grow corn. Yeah. And what is now the Commonwealth of Kentucky. Jacob came down, got his parcel of land. He was a Miller of grain. Then he found out making whiskey was a good way to preserve preserve the grain. In fact, come to find out is whiskey making skills were better and more profitable than the milling of grain. So our family started making whiskey. Oh jacobin. And then as time went on, and railroad came through, his son moved it to Bardstown. Then prohibition came along shut off 20:00 is down 20:02 and along with a lot of other folks here in Kentucky, and after prohibition, Jim Beam started the old Murphy barber distillery backup spot right down here in Clermont, where he had been milling are grinding stone, limestone rock, there was a big spring there and a distillery. And so that's where we got moved from Harding Creek to Bardstown to Claremont, where we are today, and eight generations later, we're still there. So we're looking at both water sources. They're both limestone filter, they both very come from really strong natural areas of limestone, filtered x, you know, great access to the water. So we have a lot of similarities here. You know, from a cultural perspective, they're both very involved with music. They're both very involved in barbecuing, you've got some cool barbecue competitions as well. You both got barbecue sauces, and there's a lot of connections there. And then the water is pretty much 21:00 The same. Now let's talk about the recipes a little bit. Now, Jeff, I love you. You'll tell me exactly what your recipe is your mash bill, Fred, what's the Jim Beam? mash bill? How many years you've been trying to get that out of me for it. 21:14 I figured this would be the moment you would open up and share it. Not when I put me in that coffin, they might give it to you. I'm not going to give it to you because I know you want it so damn bad. It's true. It is I do want to bend the thing is Fred. If I gave you numbers, they ended up to 100 would you know if I was telling the truth? 21:34 I would make you put your hand on my book and swear it's the truth. So it's the book of bourbon. It would have to be the truth. wouldn't have to be shit. 21:46 fishes out for you. It has been a long time. It has been a long time. So let's just say that jack daniels is very sharing with their recipes. With now they share it and you guys been very protective of it for me for years. 22:00 But we can say that you're at least 75% corn. 22:06 You're more than 51% corn. Now we're more bitty 1% or then 51% corn. I'm not giving anything. Okay, because pretty soon as at how much raw, oh, you'll be able to figure it out but give you with this with the gentleman from Tennessee tell us from the mash mill recipe for jack daniels. I will you know, with the exception of the raw whiskey that we've just introduced, that's a 70% raw 18% corn and 12% malted barley pretty much everything that you've ever had from jack daniels shares what we call the old number seven rest, right? It's 80% corn is 12% malted barley and 8%. Raw. And I know Fred doesn't want to talk about it. But I would just say in general, jack daniels is about a half to a third of the typical raw content of a Kentucky bourbon. So when you start to contrast and maybe some of the differences, obviously whiskey and Kentucky bourbon that it begins at the grain, there was a deliberate choice to maybe go a little bit less on this 23:00 Ice that would be associated with Ryan going a little bit higher and corn and make it a little bit sweeter. So jack tends to push out into that sweet range a little bit. I think it's fair to say, I think I know your grain bill, but I won't tell anybody 23:12 with a brother, Jeff, you can say it here. No one's listening. No one's watching right now. They used to talk about it. 23:20 Actually, Chuck Cowdery had a good story about your dad and the issue of bourbon plus over there, you gotta go check that out. But sorry, so are our mash bills. The recipes are pretty close, you know, so they're pretty close to being the same them. And then let's look at the distillation perspective. You guys are both using column stills both using column stills. What are you coming off the still at what's your what's your proof point office Still, we we actually all of our stills are made out of copper. So there are columns still each is equipped with a blur, so it'll be a single pass but a double distillation process. We target 140 points. 24:00 roof and with the still design that we have, we can maintain that plus or minus one proof point. So we have a really tight range around our target. So 131 to 139 would be the range 140 is the target. What is your office still proof? Jim Beam? Yeah, that's where we'll change our taste is with distillation strength. But we go off the first distillation 125 second distillation 135. OK, so again, both very similar in distillation technique. And now med one med 132 to 140. And by law, they cannot go any higher than 160 proof. So that's actually telling you right there that they are deliberately going lower, so you can get some more of the characteristic from the grain in there. So they're both doing very unique things. And now 24:57 we get to that point where we start saying 25:00 A difference. Now, Fred, you you guys go and get Maple charcoal and filter your whiskey right before it right? No, wait, no, that's not Jim Beam. That's jack daniels. 25:13 Did you do any damn research before you? 25:20 Sometimes I apologize for my buddy here, you know, what do you think of the Lincoln County process? I mean, yeah, it's tradition. That's what I do. It's good. That's what makes them special. Well, do you like it? I enjoy what they do what they make. 25:38 So tell us about the Lincoln County process. And by the way, I didn't know I was trying to set 25:43 it up there a little bit. You know, even though Today we're in the second smallest county in the state of Tennessee, both by population and geography. You'll hear this charcoal Melling process often referred to as the Lincoln County process. So we're in Moore County, but don't get confused back in the 1860s lunch. 26:00 was in a larger county called Lincoln County. More county wasn't formed until the 1870s. But this was a regional variant of bourbon. It was just something that that popped up among local distillers and back in Jack's day, even though we're the only one you'll find there today. Back in Jack's day, there were dozens of different distilleries littered throughout the hills around Lynchburg taking advantage of the limestone water that we have in abundance there. But they began to charcoal filter 26:29 right after they would distill the whiskey and before they would put it in a barrel they would filter it through hard sugar maple charcoal became the variety of wood that was most preferred. People have asked me before the jack us any other different types of wood other than hard sugar maple and I wish I could answer that question. I think if he were here today, that's probably one of my top questions that I would have is what all did you experiment with before you settled there, but I will tell you this about hard sugar maple it's an indigenous word. It's all throughout the hills around Lynchburg. So it's it's a 27:00 easy to find, even after 150 years that we've been out cutting it and burning it for charcoal. The key advantage that I see from it is that it's a very low ash wood. And we're going Of course, we're going to take our whiskey through that. So we don't want a lot of ash coming out of the charcoal getting into the whiskey and going into the barrel. Today with modern technology, we could process that away if we needed to. But what I noticed is that there's really not much in the way of ash that comes off of it. So oak actually has quite a bit of ash. Maple does not so jack was not just known to use hard sugar maple in the charcoal mellowing process, but he felt that it was very important to change it frequently because he recognized that it was like a sponge and eventually a sponge will get full and get saturated. And so you need to do more than just pass through charcoal, the charcoal needs to be fresh enough to make a difference. So we're tasting our events every week, changing it out on the frequency necessary to make sure that it's making the difference removing the fatty acids cleans up 28:00 The grainy knows it comes off much lighter, sweeter on the foot, both on the palate and also on the nose. 28:07 Fred, I don't know about you, but I heard I listened to the process and I've seen it before a million times. And it just sounds like so much more work. 28:18 I mean, do you think that's why in Kentucky that they stopped using that process? We're just a little lazier probably 28:26 wouldn't have gotten around or in the 1700s. I mean, look at them. Oh, but I'm not really. But now. I mean, that's just that's what Jeff and them do. And I've always done it. So we use it. We used to do it in Kentucky. You know, the the bill distillers actually used to do a similar process in the 1800s. It just did not. It was not very popular here. And so it went away. We did some charcoal filtering after aging. Yeah, to kind of smooth out some of the whiskies back in the old days, but now we've done some different different techniques and filtering now 29:00 Your tour guides Jeff. They like the lumps and mortar rounds toward Kentucky. And they just say this makes us better. Kentucky bourbon. Yeah. Now I gotta say as a Kentucky and although I tried to be neutral and is my skin crawls a little bit when your tour guide start making fun of Kentucky now what do you trade? What he traded him over there? Well, of course I think it's friendly competition. I think it forces us both to be the very best at our game. And I think people when when we feel like we need to step up our game and mind our P's and Q's to make a better product. You know, I know that we've had people who've come and taking the tour jack daniels who've recently taken the Kentucky bourbon trail and some of them have come up and tell me that I asked the tour guide. They wouldn't say which distillery it was. But you know, why isn't that y'all don't charcoal mellow like jack daniels does. And the standard response you'll get is that all hail that's, that is nothing but a shortcut. And of course, I looked up shortcut. I looked up the definition of IO and it's amazing guy 30:00 was Fred know, well supposed to say shortcuts are supposed to save you time or money or both. And it's something that we invest days in that we spend over a million dollars buying wood and burning it and replacing it. So it's it's something we're pretty passionate about. But it's to Fred's point, it's one of those things that makes a Tennessee whiskey unique. It makes it worth exploring. The same way I think, you know, no, to Kentucky barbers are pretty much going to taste the same. This was something that was a regional choice to make Tennessee whiskey is different. And it's something that we feel like we perfected over the years and that we're pretty proud that we still do today. All right, let's go through our tasting here. The one on your lap if I'm correct, is jack daniels. My right so we can be? Yeah, the one on your left is jack daniels. For us up on stage is the one that's closest to you. Are you going to be You got it? 30:49 I got so we're serving here is a gentleman jack. Can you tell us a little bit about gentleman jack? Yeah, of course as a Tennessee whiskey, we charcoal mellow and we were talking 31:00 about that process being somewhat different than what they do in Kentucky to make a bourbon but that's right after we distill whiskey and right before we put it in a barrel, it slowly passes through 10 feet of hard sugar maple charcoal. So that's this is the distinct step that we do that makes jack daniels at Tennessee whiskey with gentleman jack. This was our first new whiskey since prohibition we introduced it in 1988. It was the only whiskey that we've ever done. We had charcoal melt it twice so it gets one pass of charcoal before it goes in the barrel it gets another one after it's been fully matured in the barrel and before it's bottle. So this is the double mellowed version of jack daniels. And what you'll notice about it is that it has a very distinct absence of oak finish. For people who a lot of times if people struggle with bourbon or with whiskies in general it will do it will have to do with the aftertaste of oak, some people find it pleasant, that's what makes them like bourbon for other people. It's a block. It's a reason why they can enjoy it. So gentlemen, jack was literally meant to be an approachable form of whiskey. 32:00 Using charcoal all natural this is. This is all water grains, barrel and charcoal. So there's nothing artificial added in here. But this kind of displays the art of mellowing by doing it twice. All right, Fred, what do you think? I'm Dyson idea. What do you been doing the whole time? I've been smelling that I All right. Yeah, that's fine. 32:21 I think I drank the whole damn thing. 32:25 That's bullshit. Yeah, when it comes when it comes to this one in particular, I often describe it as being very, very clean, 32:33 uncomplicated, but it has almost a citrus banana nose on it has an absence of the earthy wood notes in it. Very clean and light. The great Lincoln Henderson actually had a big hand in the development of gentleman jack he did Lincoln work for brown Coleman for 40 years. So between the people of Lynchburg and all the the whiskey making expertise we have at Brown Forman, which of course includes some great bourbon brands and now also scotch whiskey and a new Irish whiskey. 33:00 Brand we we cover the whiskey world pretty well today except with the exception of Japanese whiskey. We even have Canadian. So we're a whiskey company at our core. So Lincoln Henderson is the founding master distiller for both angel's envy and Woodford Reserve. He's in the bourbon Hall of Fame he passed away in 2013. great man. So there's a little bit of a bourbon iconic figure connected to that whiskey now let's taste a little bit of Jim Beam here. This is the this is the one we see Mila Kunis talking about all the time. 33:33 This mask about you know the person this is the world's best whiskey their words not ours, according to see. Yeah. So what let's look at the Mila Kunis and a little bit but tell us about what we're drinking here with the Jim Beam black champion. Black is our gym being Nashville. Which I'm not going to tell you Fred. I know. 33:57 You're not one. But we do. We aged long. 34:00 RGM been white label stays in the barrel for years. This is a six year taste profile. So we're putting barrels that are older than six, some that are six, and some are a little younger than six. That way we keep the product on the shelf with a domain curve. All right, I got it. I got interrupted here. I gotta interrupt you. Okay, there wasn't once upon a time it had an eight year old age statement on there. If you go back farther, it had 101 months. 34:29 History he was ready for me damn right. 34:32 Fred you remember we've done this ship before? Yeah. 34:36 You ain't sent me out man. I might. 34:39 I might look dumb, but it's just a disguise. 34:43 I still you know, the thing is, it took me a while to get over by still buy it. I'm glad to see it. But the big thing on this ad it's 86 proof. So it's got more age, higher strength. So gets a little bit more of what and I think bourbon is all about no more word. 35:00 Which I did notice gentlemen jack doesn't have that much wood on the nose and finish. But I mean if you want a little more the if you like the oak, then you know the Jim Beam black is more than the GMBYI Let's take a taste. You didn't do that good talking to you in the jack daniels Did you? Yes sir. Oh you did I miss that. You want to watch it? Should you always try to set me up? I'm not trying to set you up. So now here I am trying to set you up. You're setting me up. Here we go. No, I'll give you the my spiel is a drink thing. I'm drunk enough to give me that loaded. Sorry. 35:34 Is jack daniels a bourbon? 35:39 Hey, it's Kenny here. And I want to tell you about an event that's happening on Saturday, August 24. Because I want to see you in historic downtown Frankfort, Kentucky at bourbon on the banks. It's the Commonwealth premier bourbon tasting and awards festival. There's live music and over 100 vendors of food, beer, wine, and of course, bourbon. But 36:00 Guess what even will be there in the bourbon pursuit booth. You can check out all the events including tastings with the master distillers that you've heard on the show before and the People's Choice Award for the Best bourbon out there. You can get your all inclusive ticket for $65. Plus, you can join on the free Friday night event. Go and check it out. bourbon on the banks.org there are more craft distilleries popping up around the country now more than ever before. So how do you find out the best stories and the best flavors? Rock house whiskey club is a whiskey the Month Club and they're on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer. Along with two bottles of hard to find whiskey rackhouses boxes are full of cool merchandise that they ship out every two months to members in 40 states and rock houses June box they're featuring a distillery that claims to be the first distillery to stout a whiskey rackhouse whiskey club is shipping out two bottles from there, including its beer barrel, bourbon and beer. 37:00 barrel rye, both of which were finished in barrels that were once used to mature America's number one selling bourbon barrel aged out. And if you're a beer guy like me, you would know that's New Holland dragon milk. Go to rock house whiskey club. com to check it out and try a bottle of beer barrel bourbon and beer barrel rye. Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. 37:24 Is jack daniels a bourbon? 37:26 Well, no, I mean, let's look on the label. You see the word BOURBON on her anywhere. It's in the North American Free Trade Agreement. 37:36 I political Oh, man. 37:40 Come on. JACK. Is jack daniels a bourbon? You know, according to NAFTA? Yes, it is. Oh, there we go. Thank you so much for coming. If you want to trust if you want to trust the view of our government, you know, you'd have to say that it is if you want to make your own decision about that. That's fine too. But if you look at everything in the federal 38:00 codes that define what a bourbon whiskey is. There are no exceptions when it comes to what jack daniels is our grain bill in the fact that were made in America, our grain bill, our distillation proved the fact that we only use new barrels or even make barrels for ourselves as a whiskey company. The only way to do that there's nothing that would disqualify us. But there's always been this argument that well, if you go to charcoal mellowing, it does distinctly change the spirit. Yeah, it changes the nose. It changes the mouth feel of it. And the actually it was the US government. Back in 1941. Who petition jack daniels This was after prohibition it ended. They wanted us to change our label from jack daniels, Tennessee whiskey to bourbon, they were trying to kind of go around and clean up who's operations and what they were being labeled as and they said, we've looked at your process. There's no exceptions. The what defined is bourbon, so why not just re label yourself so they submitted samples before and after charcoal mellowing, my salespeople actually offer those educationally today. 39:00 And they tasted it. This was the alcohol Bureau in Washington DC there actually was such a thing back then they tasted the product. 39:08 Government, they wrote us a letter, and 1941 that basically says we've tasted your product. And we have to agree that you don't have the character that's typical of bourbon whiskey. Therefore, if you want to label yourself a Tennessee whiskey, we won't contest it any longer. And of course, the US government has a way of changing their minds. So we can we've kept a copy of that letter just as evidence that we don't want to revisit that. We feel like the arguments been one. But we all we also say that it gives us hope, because it's the one evidence that we have in the last 75 years that our US government got any decision right. So we take that one 39:44 political angle. 39:46 You don't get me in trouble jail. Fred, I know is going to get me in trouble. So Jeff, 39:54 do you ever get tired of people asking you that question? Is jack daniels a bourbon? No, no, no. 40:00 Really I think as long as people are curious, that's part of the battle. You know, for the longest time whiskey from the 1950s and 1960s and 1970s whiskeys were all the rage. You know, the whiskey cocktails were what people ordered. But then we saw some pretty lean years as whiskey brands, the 70s, or the 80s 90s and 2000s. Were not necessarily so kind. So I think just having people to be bourbon curious. 40:26 Whiskey curious. 40:29 As part of the battle, you know, I always say if we can make whiskey interesting, collectively, but the rising tide will raise all ships. So I feel like jack daniels success doesn't necessarily have to come at the expense of Jim beam's. And I think probably Fred would say the same. That we can both have extremely successful brands because we we do have unique flavors, we have unique brands. And that's going to appeal more or less to different individuals. But I think just having people be curious about whiskey is the biggest part of the battle if they're open to trying it. I think they're 41:00 Something in the whiskey category that are going to like, all right, Do you guys ever feel competitive against each other, like you want to own the well over the other? 41:10 You know, the thing that, you know, the guys in production, were buddies, sales guys on the street. That's another damn store. 41:21 I mean, I'd have to agree. You know, Fred. Now, this is very rare that we would be on the same stage together. But we met about eight or nine years ago, in Berlin. It was amazing, because I think that was Fred's first comments. That means like, we're a state apart, and we had to come all the way to Germany to even meet. So we, we were at the Berlin bartenders convention and had a chance to actually we were representing American whiskey versus the other categories of global whiskey. So we decided against the devil Yeah, instead of having the fence between us. We were actually on the same side of the fence there. So we were we were in violent agreement I remember about the importance of limestone water and mixing up grains and using new 42:00 barrels, making it all natural not using colorings or flavorings and things of that nature. So, you know, there's so many things that are common about Jim Beam and jack daniels, of course, the one variant being charcoal mellowing, and people can decide if that's right for them. But I think as long as they're willing to to order a whiskey, there's a good chance that they're going to like something there. There we were, essentially, Jeff and me against the world. I don't think we did pretty damn good. 42:28 Well, we were lucky, because it was in Germany, and Jim Beam is pretty strong in Germany. And so all our sales people were kind of on one side and they were probably a little drunk. I think. 42:41 I think there's one thing we could agree to I actually have some friends who are what I call Doomsday errs, you know, who created fallout shelters who got Mr. ease and, you know, bottled water stacked up to the ceiling. And a lot of them have basically told me that I'm not I'm not hoarding cash. I'm basically putting bottles of jack daniels. 43:00 Whiskey and stuff like that because if the currency fails, they're absolutely certain that a bottle of whiskey is always going to be worth something regardless of what happens. 43:11 But but but Baka would not be. Yeah, I think if we go back to bartering, it's gonna be good to be in the whiskey business. What do you say? 43:19 Bam, right? You get more with a bottle of whiskey and you can handle the money. I guarantee it. 43:27 Well, gentlemen, it's been a real pleasure here. This is such a rare opportunity to have these two on the stage. I would actually like to take some questions from the audience how bad it would you like some light shirt from folks like that some questions? 43:42 Anybody have any questions out there? 43:45 What is a regular day for Fred? No. And Jeff Barnett. 43:51 I get up about 630 here down the August 1 thing, look at emails is like every other person. So do 44:00 Deal with meetings conference calls. And then I get to have fun and go down to the distillery. taste a little white dog right off the steel and then usually hit by the lab and taste some as liquor and then hang out at our visitor center, shake hands, take pictures, sand bottles, and then hit home but then the day they send me to 44:25 your liquor stores and bars, all days signing bottles, taking pictures, doing presentations, I'm sure Jeff's when he's on the west side. I'm usually on the east. 44:37 That same place. 44:39 You can see who's been ahead of you when you go into a liquor store. You see bottles on the shelf that have been signed by Jeff Arnett or Jimmy Russell or whoever is it well shit, I'm definitely behind him. You know, don't put dates on them so you don't know. Or maybe x coming. I'm not going to store and see bottles son from the last visit. And I think what shipping 45:00 Selling enough 45:04 one too many 45:06 I got out they don't let you get away. You know I think the the one word in that question that that puzzles me the most is regular I don't know that I've ever had a regular day as a master distiller because every day is it's different to me I feel absolutely blessed to work for jack daniels you know I'm a native Tennessee and argue that is probably the best known product from our state so have to have any hand in working at jack daniels to me was a dream job. But 80% of my time is spent in Lynchburg. The one thing that I'm most fortunate about is that I don't have to travel between facilities we make every drop in one spot using a water source which allows me to keep everything as consistent as I feel like it needs to be. It allows us to leverage you know, employees who have you know, several generations of experience making whiskey I think that I'm not the strength of jack daniels it is the people of Lynchburg who've committed over the years since prohibition to 46:00 Keep the brand going and growing. But I do spend about 50 to 60 days a year out on the road. So, you know, you become a little bit of a 46:09 celebrity in the world of whiskey. You know, it's amazing what passes that celebrity, you know. But you know, to to a whiskey fan, they want to meet you, they want to get a photo, they want to get a signature. And that's it's always an honor to do that. But we are sold in 170 countries today in 10 years. I've actually by the end of this year, I'll have visited 39 countries so cover a lot of the ground in a few days of the year. So let's talk about celebrities for a second. Let's go to what's it like spending time with Mila Kunis? My one man 46:41 I mean, it could have been worse, you know? Now Mila she she came here to Kentucky a couple times and we hit it off right off the bat. You're gonna love this story. I might as well go on and tell it. Surely I won't get any trouble since I've already cursed a little bit going on with Mila first came. They wanted to make sure that our first 47:00 meeting was on film. They didn't want us to get to know each other. And so she came to our home there in Bardstown. She was in the house. They were getting her hair and makeup wardrobe. You know, I pretty much do all that stuff myself. I don't I don't have hairdressers that go with me, kind of no reason to me anyway. My wife went into the house and was talking to me over there and she had her dog when Mila and her boyfriend at that time, Ashton Kutcher had to put her dog sleeping on Neil or something. So she got pretty emotional was holding Sandy's dog. And she said, I'm a little nervous to work with your husband. And Sandy said, Why? She's a walk curse a lot. 47:45 And my wife said, You're good. 47:48 She's a no you don't understand. I say fuck a lot. 47:53 She said, You're still good. 47:58 Sandy came out 48:00 And she came on was laughing I said, What's the funny? So Amelia is nervous to work with you. I said Why? She was he causes a lot, so it's no big deal. I know what she's worried about saying fuck around you. So we did our little meeting. It was on film, everything was cool. Cut, take a break. I got her ear and I said fuck it. 48:22 We're gonna get along just fine, big boat. 48:25 That's how I was. I was tell someone that after having met Fred I realized he was truly a master of the English language because he can take the F bomb and use it as every form of the English language in one sentence. 48:40 Yeah, all right, Jeff, as I play bartender here on stage, why don't you tell us one of your celebrity stories? Oh, goodness. Um, you know, we're very fortunate. Like I said, we've had a lot of people especially in the music industry. We were fans of jack daniels. So especially in country music, a lot of people and they think of, of Tennessee. If they don't 49:00 Think of jack daniels when they think of Tennessee I think they largely think of country music so I've had a chance to spend time him he 49:08 music table we even work, you know had a chance to hang out with with Zac Brown and 49:14 and his wife and his children and also now with Eric church, and to find out that his wife literally grew up about 30 minutes from my hometown, and what real and really good people that they are. I think that I think that's the most surprising thing that I find is that celebrities are not a lot different than we are, you know, some of them maybe are but the ones that I've had the privilege of meeting I've been always really surprised at just how humble and what good people they are. And of course if they love jack daniels even better, we got plenty to talk about if they do. I know you. You are partial to the ones that favor Jim Beam and I definitely have a I feel like a big fan base out there both in Hollywood and all over the music industry, jack daniels as well represented there. All right, everybody. Let's have another question. Who's got a 50:00 Question out here. Yes, ma'am. Right here in the back. coming to you with the microphone. 50:06 How often do you introduce new products? And when will your next one be introduced? 50:12 I'll answer for jack daniels. You know, how often do we come up with new products? You know, for the longest time we didn't, we had one brand that carried us for over 100 years. We introduced gentleman jack in 1988. We introduced single barrel in 1997. We didn't introduce any new products from jack daniels for about 14 years. And that wasn't necessarily due to our lack of interest of offering new products. It was really more about is the market even wanting a new product from us? Are they happy with what they have, but as as whiskey has taken off again, I think that's what we're seeing has changed the most is that people do want to try a lot of different things, including the loyal jack daniels people and that includes, you know, our newest grain bill that's come out is raw. So we have two different versions of it to me that's that's our new product and for this year, that's what we're going to continue to focus on. 51:00 Because to me, I think it's very different for people who maybe have never been a fan of jack daniels before. Maybe one of the reasons is the fact that we're very low and raw. And if you do like a high raw whiskey, we now offer that, you know, jack daniels, you know, like I said, we're very fortunate we have just a rabid fan base. And I think besides Harley Davidson, we just recently got named the brand that's most likely to be tattooed on someone. So, you know, people have asked me why, why did you come out with a rye whiskey? And it's like, well, my fear was that there's going to be this big burly guy with a tattoo that says jack daniels on his arm, and he's gonna taste rye whiskey this out. He really likes that. So we need to give him a jack daniels option. That way, he's not going to have to go and get his tattoo taken off. So but you know, to answer that question, we've come out with one new product a year for the last seven years. So we've gone from three to 10 in a really short period. So we're just kind of trying to maybe decompress a little bit from doing that and focus on what we've got out there. We feel like we've got a really strong profile. 52:00 There's something in there that out of those 10 that I think everyone's gonna like. 52:05 Now you were about to dispute the tattooed thing for No, no, no, no, I asked him. I was going to ask Jeff for his was, oh, I couldn't show you on stage. I'm sorry. 52:17 Between me and my wife, you're lucky, you're lucky. 52:21 Now, we do a lot of innovations. 52:26 My son actually, Freddie, he's he's got a project who just had a baby, by the way, or his wife had a baby. Right? Congratulations, grandpa. 52:36 Paul, I was holding Booker last time. 52:39 It was kind of cool. But Freddie's got a brand called Little Book, which so my father called him from the time he was a baby. So every year, he's going to make a straight whiskey or straight spirit blend. And so every year it's going to be another chapter into chapter one was 52:59 either 53:00 No easy. The second one's no easy task. First one was the big easy, but he's taking spirit streams from within the beam Suntory portfolio around the world, which he's got a pretty unlimited canvas. When you look at all the whiskies we have which, with this year, he did a 40 year old Canadian 16 year old Canadian rap, an eight year old, Kentucky straight raw, 53:24 all cash strength, just like his grandfather. And so we're doing innovations, probably one or two a year. And then we'll within our play knob Creek will go we've done single barrel rise, single barrel Bourbons, can strength. We do different things, all limited releases, because folks like Jeff said, they want different stuff. They don't want the same thing over and over and over. If we see something that really hits hard, like we did a base right and dark raw, which was, oh, I've got an idea that we could maybe execute for next 54:00 years festival Why don't we do a blend of jack daniels and Jim Beam for bourbon and beyond 2019 54:09 I go say won't ever 54:12 talk somebody 54:15 and they'll tell you what how drunk were you to when you agreed to 54:23 have your people talk to my 54:26 so you get this ball rolling Fred 54:29 should we have it for next year? 54:34 I would say this so I think it when you're looking at Tennessee and Kentucky you're definitely looking at some of the world's best spirits when it comes to whiskeys and you can't go wrong if you will explore around I think you're going to find there's something they're just gonna like. Oh yeah, for sure. So what you're saying it's better than Canada. 54:50 Well, it's different than Canada we have different rules. We have Canadian whiskey brand is 54:56 people like and more power to them. We got scotch whiskey brands. 55:00 get us in trouble. Yeah, we got Canadian. You know, I've recently become a fan of shared scotches oh you know students don't smoke repeat but I'm open to trying new things. 55:11 Well gentlemen, if you all if anyone in the audience has anything lab, I know you to do. I just poured you like four fingers there. Grab what you have a lap. Let's toast it to, to Fred know and Jeff Barnett chairs and now you all 55:28 chairs Transcribed by https://otter.ai

What if there was a legalized secondary market? Some may argue there is with new vintage laws being introduced around the country, but then there is the massive flood of online marketplaces that don't have any regulation whatsoever. It's a touchy subject because anyone that is really into bourbon, has seemed to find their way into these corners of the web. And lets be honest, most of us have had to do some sort of buy, sell, or trade to get bottles that we desire. It's the nature of the game and this show looks at the premise of if you could build your own legal secondary market, what would it look like? We are joined by bourbon enthusiast Nate Shue, a Patreon supporter, on this topic. Show Partners: Barrell Craft Spirits is more than just bourbon, they blend rye, whiskey, rum and have a signature infinite barrel project. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. Do you have a podcast? Sign up for Chartable Podcast Analytics to track rankings and reviews. Visit Chartable.com. Receive $25 off your first order with code "Pursuit" at RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: KDA and BIER report on the Kentucky Bourbon industry’s energy, water, and emissions data. - https://www.bieroundtable.com/news/formalizing-sustainability-kentucky-bourbon-industry-collaborates-with-bier/ Whiskey Stocks and the Bubble Burst - https://www.barrons.com/articles/u-s-whiskey-stocks-like-brown-forman-have-soared-beware-the-bourbon-bubble-51557514898 This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about whiskey 'first' marketing. When did you start getting into bourbon? What do you think started the secondary market craze? What are the issues with the secondary market? Do you think referral secondary markets like Wine Searcher or Blur Book hurt or help? How does the value get established? What would happen if you removed the community aspect of the secondary market? Do you think other states should have laws similar to Washington D.C.? What about auction houses like Christie's? If you were to have a legal secondary market, what would it look like? Should distilleries price the bourbon so high that it basically eliminates the secondary market? Do you think if they shut down the secondary market overnight, would it just come back? 0:00 Got a two and a half year old. So there's limited things to be done. 0:06 How about you not be a terror this weekend? Hey everyone, 0:21 Kenny here and this is episode 202. of bourbon pursuit. And as usual, we have a little bit of news to go through that bourbon pursuit we try to find new and interesting subjects to talk about in one podcast we thought of doing a while ago was thing what is the environmental impact of urban? And we haven't really found that right guest and that right subject matter because I don't know if that's really what you all find engaging your interesting, so we haven't really done it. However, I find a little bit interesting. And there was a news report that came out this past week. And this was a partnership that was done by the Katie and bear in 2018. And it was the it's the first time report to actually measure the Kentucky bourbon industries use of energy water in emissions data. For roses heaven Hill, Rosie Tyler, Wild Turkey, Bacardi beans, Suntory Brown, Forman and Diaz, you all submitted data, and this ensures that it represents about 98% of the Katie a membership by production volume. Overall Kentucky distilleries use of energy and water consistently declined from 2013 to 2017. And still rested below the global distilleries averages in 2017. The average water use ratio for Kentucky distilleries decreased 41% from 2013 to 2017. This represents a total water use avoidance of more than 6 million key leaders. Now I don't know what a kilo leader is, I don't live in the metric system. So to put it in layman's terms, it's it's enough to fill an Olympic sized swimming pool nearly 2400 times. Now one example this is heaven Hill updated its water source at Bernheim distillery. The company reduced its water usage by 33%. It plays to still condenses onto a cooling tower loop. The distiller now recycles within its operations instead of sourcing new water. This saves around 330,000 gallons of water per day, you can read the entire report in our show notes. stocks have been on the news lately, and maybe it's because of the trade over the China but stocks in general tech usually gets to seem to get the most eyeballs and folks had just seemed to look past the US whiskey stocks. Now if you would have had the foresight years ago, instead of putting money just in the bottles, you would have put it into stocks like brown Forman and GPI. at nearly 30 times at this year's estimated earnings. These two stocks are trading at premiums to my more diversified rivals such as the NGO in GPI alone, Rose 98 rose to $98 last year from $6 and 2014. However, barons com is telling people kind of pump the brakes and hold on and don't really give the money grab yet, because there could be a bubble that's going to burst. And that happened with celebrity vodka not too long ago. Now that you have people like Bob Dylan endorsing a whiskey investors may wonder if we find ourselves backstroking in the bourbon industry, because there's now billions of dollars that have been added to adding distillery capacity and more barrels of booze, aging and all these warehouses. You can read the full article in our show notes that has quotes from our previous show guests such as Joe Beatrice of barrell bourbon, as well as Chuck Cowdery. At today's episode looks at a cultural topic, what if there was a legalized secondary market? Some may argue that we already have that there's new vintage laws that are being introduced around the country. But then you see the massive flood of online marketplaces that don't have any regulation whatsoever. It's a touchy subject, because anyone that's really into bourbon kind of seem to find their way into these corners of the web. And let's be honest, most of us has had to do some sort of buy, sell or trade to get the bottles that we desire. It's the nature of the game. And this show looks at the premise. If you could build your own legal secondary market, what would it look like? At this time, we also want to say thank you to Nate shoe who's on our podcast today, and one of our Patreon supporters for joining us with this topic. Now with that, we're going to hear from our good friend Joe over a barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred Minnick with above the jar. 4:33 Joe from barrell craft spirits here, barrell craft spirits is more than just bourbon. We blend rye whiskey rum in our signature in a barrel project. Find out more at barrellbourbon.com. 4:45 I'm Fred Minnick. And this is above the char, what sells a bottle of whiskey. If you're listening to this podcast, you know data spent your fair share of money in the liquor store buying those sweet precious bottles of bourbon rye, scotch, Canadian whiskey, Irish whiskey, maybe a little South African whiskey. So you are not necessarily the person the distillers are trying to target. When they are asking the question, how do we sell to the French consumer? You see, you and I were more of what they would consider the base or the geeks, people who are going to buy whiskey, no matter how they market it. So they're always trying to find a way to appeal to that 25 year old freshly out of college MBA working on Wall Street, or in Boise, Idaho at a bank, they're always trying to figure out a way to target that new consumer. And one of the ways that they think they've been able to do this is by saying they are the first at doing something. If you take a look at a lot of the whiskey marketing, you'll see people say they're the first to use this grain first to use this barrel. First to have a distiller with long hair and flip flops make the whiskey Yeah, that's a joke, by the way. But you know, they're always so caught up and saying they're the first as if that new consumer will care. And the fact is, most people don't care if you are the first to do something in American whiskey. Well, we do care about does it taste good? What's the price on it? And can I find a bottle? Now that new consumer they may be interested in like doesn't mix well with coke? Is it good? And cocktails? Does it? Do I like a neat? What is bourbon can be bourbon be made outside of Kentucky? Now there's all kinds of questions that these people go through. But the whiskey distillers are going down this path of trying to own the fact that they are first at something. And I just don't think it matters, unless it's really important. Like you were the first to make whiskey on the moon. You know what I would like to know that. But if you're the first to use a certain type of grain from Guatemala, you know, maybe mention that. But don't make that your entire marketing platform. Because if you have to talk about how you were the first it's something that means you're most likely trying to compensate for the fact that your whiskies not up to snuff. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Twitter or Instagram. That's at Fred Minnick. Again. That's at Fred minute. Until next week, cheers. 7:24 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit. Ryan and Kenny here in the basement once again, having our gorgeous backdrop. But today's topic is going to be something that's interesting, I think, to everybody in general, because if you are even entering the bourbon world, which for me, I found that I still find it really crazy that you still have all these one on one discussions on like the Facebook, bourbon or groups. And it's like, if you just started drinking wild turkey last week, you're already going into Facebook forums and trying to figure out your way to learn more about it. Like, I mean, take me back to your first when you started. Ryan, were you actually sitting there trying to like, find more information on the internet after you had your first drink of bourbon? 8:12 No, no, definitely not. After Well, it was a long time ago. And I was inundated and surrounded by it but it was mostly just go into a store talking to friends about it. You know, I think Facebook and the internet is connected everyone and information is so close to your fingertips. That just makes it easier for someone to find out about things how things work and or get, you know, deeply involved in something very fast. And so it kind of takes you down the rabbit hole really quick with how much information there is out there and 8:44 different markets and whatnot. Yeah, I mean, I remember just my my entry into bourbon as well. And, you know, today, a lot of us we go and we look after, you know, how can we find the victors 10s? How do we find a ruling Lou Weller's? How do we find all these ones that are really kind of hard to get your hands on. It took me after I mean, I started I started like drinking bourbon as my regular drink. You know, when I was 21 in college, and then from there, it just didn't stop. But for people that are on the hunt, even to find Pappy Van Winkle, it took me almost four to five years out of college to even know that these even existed like I didn't even I didn't go try hunting for stuff I didn't. I wasn't looking on the top top shelves or racks. I was looking at my price bracket. 9:29 Yeah, like Elijah Craig and Maker's Mark were premium. For me. It was like those were like going on a limb and spending a you're like oh man $30 a bottle man. That's like that's breaking the bank was like it now that's like, that's just like an everyday drinker. 9:45 Yeah, of course, the old sorry. Oh, force was my go to and then every once in a while that splurge on four roses, small batch. And that was like my, that's like, 9:54 that was my my, that's like a graduation or something big celebration. You're like, oh, somebody's got Let's bring out the four roses, or, you know, Elijah Craig 17 or something not? Not the way it is now. You know? 10:06 Yeah. And because at that point, people eventually figure out, oh, they go to this forum, I want to learn more. And then they're like, Oh, what's this whole secondary thing. And then all of a sudden, people are like, Oh, I can make money off this. Oh, I didn't know that. Then winkles were really hard to find. I know, whatever was really hard to find. Now I go and find it. And I try to flip it or try to do whatever. And that's all I'm going to do in oil. It's it's created this elusive secondary market that everybody at least I'm pretty sure that if you listen, this podcast, it's not because you're drinking wild turkey last week, it's because you know, the culture and you know exactly what's what's actually happening out there. And that is really the topic of today. And this idea was brought to us by none other than Nate shoe. And Nate is a huge bourbon enthusiast. He's also a Patreon supporter of ours. So Nate, welcome to the show. 10:57 Thanks for having me, guys. 10:59 Yeah, so I kind of I want to gauge you know, your level here, like, when did you start getting into bourbon? And when did that bug really, really bite you hard? 11:09 Well, it kinda is in my blood. My grand, I came from basically cocktail culture. So my grandparents had, you know, nightly Bourbons. They've been drinking we call bourbon the family drink. So it was literally no matter how all the members of my extended family, sooner or later, you come around to bourbon, whether you start you know, like in college, or you come later on, you know, in your 30s or 40s, it becomes your drink. So, always been around it that my, my family weren't like, you know, fancy bourbon drinkers. They were, you know, my step grandfather was a heaven Hill guy. My, my grandparents were bourbon Supreme, the old one in Illinois, the one before they before the rocket stuff that they have now. You know, it's a little tassel on and everything that was there drink you know, it's unlikely one and and it just after a while, it does affect your what way I mean, like you guys, man, I was in college. It wasn't doing anything fancy when I and I'm, you know, I hate to say this, but my roommate went to UT. So he brought back the love of makers after college, and so makers was my fancy with our fancy bourbon that we would have when they weren't going to grab a handle a jack daniels for everyone. I just wanted to give shots of whiskey. Which, you know, to our mind now, it's like shots of whiskey. Talking about 12:30 a sin. Yeah, 12:31 it is a sin. So So yeah, for the longest time, it was and I still have an absolute love of makers. I'm sure you guys have like that cheaper lower end bourbon that like is just you have a special place in your heart for you go out to a bar and you're not sure what you want to get. You're like, I give me that whatever that is. It's definitely makers for me, but a couple years ago, and honestly, I can't remember what triggered it. You know, it was like you take that first step into Hey, maybe this stuff can get better. I made the time I was at spent many years trying to learn about wines, you know, which is its own rat hole, very expensive rat hole to go down into. And started going to get getting back on the just a regular daily bourbon drinking train. And I'm trying to think back of what basically that first little bridge bottle is what was that that kind of cut you over to wait a minute when we got here. 13:24 And honestly can't remember. 13:28 I can't remember. So 13:31 there was something that just I just added morning it is you just think what the hell was Megan, suppose you go back through your old receipts and figure out what that one was. But basically, once you kind of get like, it became an association of like, I know how, after drinking so much wine, and she were like, you know, there's a difference in wines in that, you know, a red wine tastes like this, but a higher end wine tastes can taste amazing. Why can't it be the same way with whiskey? So you kind of go down that track of like, and then you can figure out what do I like, you know, and so it was advantageous, then, you know, and this is goes back, you know, 1015 years, that the brands don't have the popularity and that cachet and where we're at with social media where everything is in your face, as far as get the get the fancy stuff, get the limited releases, it was just kind of like what do I like to drink became an easy, easy kind of transition into what we have now. Which is, let's just say it's a little bit crazy. 14:28 What do you think was probably the the pushing point that that started making everything a little bit crazy, you know, I I always look at it and think of I measured things by what I would call the Pappy Van Winkle index. And and that's sort of really what kind of started a whole craze of secondary market and some other things that are hard to get. I mean, what did you see is that sort of catalyst. 14:51 That's a pretty good, good one there. I mean, when it would start to show up on TV shows, and kind of the buzz This is again, probably pre social media environment winner. And now so maybe roll back to like 2010 2011 2012, 15:04 I remember seeing an episode of 15:08 Oh, shoot the Norland show on HBO don't recall the name of it this moment. But the famous chef that did a cameo on it, David Chang, I think is his name. He brings out a bottle of Pappy 15 at the end of the show, just to kind of bring everyone together, it was kind of like, hey, it was a total like a name drop thing. But it was like kind of in your face of like, hey, the fancy, you know, famous folks drink it you should do. So there's almost like a top down push of to make it a luxury brand, which for folks that have been buying it and drinking it for so many years. It's kind of like, What are you talking about? This is the stuff that I'm getting up every day, which probably makes the luxury brands consider at least these days luxury brands of bourbon to be strange for people. Other words, a really fine piece of fashion like a close, you know, there wasn't a time that you could you know, by Ferragamo shoes for like, you know, five bucks, right? That's just a fact of life. What we have here is a little bit strange, especially, I mean, you start getting at the dusty room, and you know, stuff that your grandfather bought for five bucks. And all of a sudden, we're, you know, paying 200, 300 500 bucks for it. It's like, what didn't make much sense. today. I mean, even you know, going back to stuff, you know, five years ago, you know, stuff has gone up 300 400, 500%, it's that disconnect, I think, which drives a lot of the frustration in the bourbon community specifically, you know what I mean, it's just, it's when when something was added at a price level, where you were the it's part of the price theory of price takers and price makers, back then the bourbon community with a price makers, they you know, were like 20 bucks a 5030 bucks a fit. That's just what it is, I am the We Are the buying community, we have kind of spoken. Now the situation is reversed. Now their prices takers, because the price makers are the folks with the inventory and the supply. And they can the community at large can be can want to be a price maker all they want. But no one's going to sell it to him for that it's just not going to happen. And so that kind of reversal is very jarring for people, and it makes me definitely has an understandable element of frustration, which is what you guys probably see every day. 17:25 Well, and nothing. bourbon is the like, perfect product. Because for someone to sell because it's rare. scarcity. People love scarcity. They love the awareness of it, you have things like single barrels where everything's unique. And so it kind of like, can dry and like you said, What does these they're not making any more. So it's more rare, more valuable, more collectible to people. And so it's 17:49 it just 17:51 appreciate over time, because they're not making the like they used to and then it's every barrel is unique. So it's like a unique product, and like the perfect product to sell because of that. 18:01 Absolutely. And so the you know, really we were trying to gauge on how do we start talking about what a legal secondary market would look like? If if we could actually imagine one. But let's go ahead and think about the current, the current aspect of the secondary market. And what's that? What I 18:21 ever heard of it doesn't exist? 18:25 Actually, it's probably close to the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth year after raise hands all these times. But let's talk about what what are the issues that are there today? You know, other than a it being completely legal. But what are the other issues that we see 18:43 with with the current state of state of the union of the secondary market? I guess you could say? 18:48 Well, I mean, you really, it's it kind of does begin and with the fact that like Fred said on Tuesday, alcohol is a controlled substance, there's really, for as much as possible market forces can change that, they'll always be an element of control, that's got to go to somebody, it cannot be an unfettered open market, it just can't that that's that's, you know, you got to start from that point, nothing's ever going to change that nothing should be quite honest, it deserves to be a controlled substance. But what the next step that you want to take there is do you want to have a market like by literal definition of market, which is the free flowing information of buying and selling, the way to ensure the product you're buying is what you're at what you're buying, and who you're selling it to transport get transparency, the things that you would see in the financial market, I think I've been reading up again, I liked I think it was Nick from breaking bourbon had a pretty detailed vision about what he wants a secondary market could be. But I think what it lacked was an element of truly a market because in his his vision was you could bottles could go around bottles could go in. And but as a consumer you can, only thing you could take out was bottles. But I think and I think that in itself does not make a market. Because the market involves it's not just products changing, and its products and cash basically changing hands 20:18 on his idea was that your bottles are your currency. 20:22 Right. And in that case, that doesn't mean if we were in a barter economy, sure, or pre or at least in that sub economy as a part of coming, it'd be great. But the reality is, of course, that's not going to that doesn't cut the muster. That's not going to create a true market there, I think. But the secondary 20:36 market is kind of a barter system, really, because I mean, it's gone. Yeah. Because you know, you have bottles that you're selling for, but to get the funds to buy the bottles that you want. And so it's like, it's all this made up money kind of moving around, exchanging hands just to get like, because I have access to certain bottles, somebody has access to certain that I want. And so it's just like, all this moving around trading between people, even though there's money involved, it's like, it's staying within the system, it seems like it's not, you know, going outside of it 21:11 is real element of what the market would need, I think. And again, one of some of the best analogs you can see to this is the financial world is where the market makers, the the end of the end and the role of the person that's going to bring the buyers and the sellers together. And you has to use more more financial nomenclature, who has the order book in front of them, who knows what the offers are coming in, and what the offers in for both sides. Because right now, like we talked about price takers, price makers, it's a one way street, people with a with the inventory, or just like this, the price we're done. I don't know if you guys have been on wine searcher. But I say have very fascinating graphs about offer prices. And so I looked through, you know, the typical ones, happy be tackling the rest, over a five year period. And it's fascinating as the prices don't change, there's the the movement is just not there, you'd think it would appear to be logical that wow, okay, I can't unload as a store, for example, unload this, Pappy 24 1800 bucks, well, maybe I'm kind of old for 14 or 1500, it's, you know, saying as they probably got a retailer at least close to retail, it's, they're still making a good deal of money. It just sits there. And it'll sit there for a long time. And you think if and because they have know, them, since they are their own market or making their own market, they don't care about that no one else's wants to buy or no one's a buyer at that price will just sit there, but a market maker. And given a commission of course, in this you increase the cost of price bottles in general is motivated to make the sale, you know, I'm saying and they're in the what we have now is we really don't, we had the sides are SO FAR Part of that there's no one they're motivated to make the sale, you get a market maker, he's motivated to make the sale. So and that what you know, ideally, of course, that could kind of bring the prices, the the the supply and demand more to balance, maybe get a little more movement in prices. And to actually, you know, so we so give, that would give people a little more opportunity, because of the fair and open market. If people have, you know, again, have the ability to buy it. It sounds, you know, obviously closely like an auction system, like we have at the International round, like with scotch and the rest, but you look at that you look at those prices, and the same thing there. They just the prices Don't move, they sit up, they sit there, and it's, you know, looking at it, you almost say to yourself Is this some kind of ball, setting these things, because they it's just, it's fascinating to me, that for a luxury good life, this, which it doesn't really have a clear set value, you know what I mean, for that, for reselling these bottles, they've it's like it's come into being and it's becomes an expectation for the folks that are selling it. And that become that expectation is then put goes across all of the channels to sell these bottles where the auctions personal, you know, the the, the more gray markets, or the retailers who pretty much at this point are just as much a member of the secondary market as individuals. 24:30 So you brought up a good point, I kind of want to talk about this to you know, you talked about wine searcher, there's also bought bottle Blue Bottle blue book that's out there who and you know, this is these are this is publicly accessible. It's not like some of the secondary markets where you get to know somebody that knows somebody to make sure that you can get in. It's not really that hard. It's just kind of like oh, find it click on this 24:56 actually refer a friend. Yeah, 24:57 no, it's it's funny, 25:00 like the worst kept secret in history. And it's not hard to find it however stuff like wine searching bottle Blue Book, like it's, it's publicly accessible information. Do you think this actually hurts? Or does it help a secondary market or even just the general market? 25:18 Well, value should, there should be some debate about values, they shouldn't just be hidden, you know, think basically behind the curtain. And, you know, at least, to use the auction example, like the auctioneer has the magic value behind him, and he sets it and that's just it. I mean, there should be like, you should be able to kind of challenge from a community perspective, why this bottle is worth why it is valued at this much. Right? Because the other problem we have one of the one of the other problems in this particular market is it's so thin the supply is I mean, we're talking, you know, hundreds of 10s hundreds in some cases. Well, what's up? What's up barrel? Willa, like, what 168 180? I mean, they're just, it's ridiculous. The amount of the the thinness of these markets. So how do you value that? You know, where are these values coming up with? I mean, 26:07 yeah, that's a good question. 26:09 I was just gonna say, because, typically, it's like, Where did the values begin? Because typically, it's like, double, you know, what you paid for it. And then but you have some, like, the band wrinkles, which are like 343 to four x, you know, times and it's like, well, how did those become, because they're not, they're, like, less rare than some of these other bottles. 26:28 And it and it stays, you know, it like jumps people this, this, the three to four or five, x comes up? And I would expect it for it to keep going up? In other words, if it's if it immediately jumps up to a value of that level, why does it stop? You know, it would not, it's doesn't seem logical that it would just stop. Because like, for example, Happy 23 sits at what 2600 or so, and secondary, and it just like gets up there and just stays, you know, I mean, if they're, if, if there's price it if there's people willing to pay that much for that bottle at that price? I mean, you're already so far over what is considered MSRP? Why isn't the price even higher? You know, you're likely to find someone they're going to get, why does these whatever the price movement, I mean, it was to make many, many interesting economic papers. Trying to find the price there this I've read a few just in general and like luxury goods, and doesn't really address this because bourbon such a very unique industry in the product. But it just having the transparency and market makers, apart from the legality, which is a whole nother trick bag of you know, who who's going to solve that one? Right? I mean, just to make it, you know, it. I mean, you talked about on Tuesday, I mean, just from the shipping angle of it. That's a thorny mess. And the, the 21st amendment gives you one sentence about what the states can do, which basically is everything. Otherwise, you don't have a lot of clarity there. And that's why you have the series of decisions, the try to tease out what that precisely means. And if you heard some of the dissenting opinions, and some of those decisions that especially Brian from Supreme Court was talking about on Tuesday, it's a fascinating read, because it doesn't cut across ideological or party lines. 28:17 Yeah, yeah. And another thing about pricing, kind of a few examples that amazed me some like cured oak or tornado, you know, it was $75 bottle with it with two or three years, it was like, only two to 300 bucks, you know, for those. And then like, all of a sudden, like IPOs six, and then now they're not, you know, and it's like, well, how does that how does that happen? You know, like, and then like bottles, you know, they immediately come out, and they're say double or triple x, but then somebody opens ones and drinks one the reviews bad. So it drops down, but then somebody says they like it, then it goes back up. And then it's, you know, 28:54 it's kind of crazy. There's the community aspect, I mean, the community has grown a lot larger and more recent year. And once you know, you have a cured oak or a tornado that was only around for a little bit, and then it it sort of it follows a probably a pricing structure that you see of dusty bourbon. And that is pretty equivalent, because you're never going to have it again. And if you want it, you're going to have to pay for it. And all of a sudden, people are like, Oh, this is great. And there is only what a couple thousand bottles right ever released. You know, you you think of just old granddad from the 1980s, there's probably there's probably hundreds of thousands that are released. So it's it's more scarcity and stuff like that. Sure. It's a name. That's but yeah, it is definitely good investment. That's I think that's part of the reason why people look at this. And you can't, you can't blame them for not looking at this as an investment because it actually is an investment opportunity for for many people, even people that have large collections that have a lot of bottles open, they still invest in by rare things like just rare old knickers, they'll buy rare, very old Fitzgerald's and they'll sit on him because they know, in 567 years, it's going to be worth a little bit more. And they're going to make what they had on their investment. 30:12 Was it the the economists we had from U of L on they said like, they did a research that from 2015. Like now, like if you invested in Berlin, you've seen annual gains of 200%, like, on average, and you're like, holy cow. Like, you can't get that anywhere. 30:28 Yeah, in any investment. It doesn't help that university researchers are helping fuel this. 30:33 Right. Right. Well, CNBC would talk about scotch a few times a year, about the investment and as a category of things to invest in that were, you know, not your typical securities. And it would always be the same way like, yep, it's a great investment along with, with rare wines, if stored properly, and the rest. So yes, go ahead. Okay. 30:57 Well, the other thing I kinda want to talk about was, I talked about earlier is the community aspect. And one, the one thing that's, that's very different with this, you know, we had talked about since it is a controlled substance that needs to be regulated. However, the community is a very, very good job of regulating this market. And if this were to kind of move into a, a legal ish terms, and we can kind of talk about what legal avenues there are here in a second is kind of the next segment. But what happens if you remove that community aspect where you are, you're doing this based on trust, and there is that that sort of connection, because we're all part of the forums, we can read, there's, out of the years, there's only been a handful of times where somebody has actually gotten burned. And so what happens if you remove that that community aspect from it? 31:55 Well, if you have the same level of trust in the individuals that are holding the alcohol, assessing the alcohol, then you'd have something similar. It's a matter of my, you know, trust migration from the guides is that you know, and worked with with some other organization, whatever would happen to be kind of like, it seems to work well, for especially at the UK, the auction international auctions, as people have seemed to have a healthy amount of respect for them, like they're not going to, you know, sell you counterfeits, and they take at least a little bit of, it seems to be a lot of effort to make sure that they're not accepting counterfeits to sell. Either. It's, it's one of the be one of the difficulties and bringing a grey market or black market, if you want to use a more harsh term into the light is, is the taking that trust, because obviously, that that kind of market Trust is everything, you have nothing else, there's no one else to no one else is settling, or setting rules, or anything like that you're trusting the person you're doing business with. So you know, could you be doing this, you could, in theory, be conducting the same business minus you know, a percentage going to whatever is the official are actually more than a few percentages, because you have state taxes, of course, to get in to get their cut, which in the end will mollify a good deal of states, they have their money, they'll have a lot of the complaints will kind of go away. You know, 33:26 it all always boils down to money, but with 33:30 and I'm sure you're seeing the same kind of issues. with marijuana, as you know, as the state's legalize it, there becomes a more formal market, you're moving for, again, from a black market to a to a more open market, where you're dealing with different people versus the trust that obviously folks that deal with illicit substances would do with each other. And certainly, in a case of a class, it was to or what I mean, much more seriously control substance versus vice alcohol, where trust is. So that's a beautiful, difficult, that would be a problem. Like if you were if there would be a formal step forward to do that, you know, through all 50 states is how do you migrate the trust that individuals that are buying and selling and trading bottles now can do a certainly with it, costing them more? 34:18 Right? Wouldn't you think what happened if you remove that, that sort of community aspect? You know, 34:25 I told my like family and my wife about this secondary more, and they're like, Are you insane? Like you're, you're trusting these random people on the internet to sell you are bad, and you're shipping home and hoping and then like, you're taking all the risk shipping and buy, I think that I'm amazed at how well it is regulated within the community, and now would be, I just don't know, there would be as much thoughtfulness from a regulatory as there is now currently with the Barbara community, because it is like a circle of trust and like this little aspect of in, we're not going to let any one mess with it, you know, and so 35:06 I don't know, I 35:08 kind of like the way it is, but Well, I can tell you this if you if you buy a bottle from like Christie's or something like that, an auction house and it gets lost in shipment, they might refund your money, they're probably not going to replace it with a nice equivalent bottle, but they're, they're sure shit not going to send you like a bunch of like free samples, because, you know, 35:26 they feel bad about it, right? We lost in 35:28 the mail. That's one thing that, you know, you can't you're not going to have that that sort of personal connection out of it either. 35:34 Yeah, and because we're all in this, nobody wants to get screwed. And, you know, and when things happen, you feel bad, and you empathize with that person. And so you're going to do what's right to make them you know, feel good about the whole because you are then we are all the same, you know, same bread, same people that are passionate about this. And so I feel like we would do a much better job of taking care of each other versus you know, buying from liquor stores or whatever they probably policy Yeah, your refund or whatever. But 36:04 yeah, I don't know, I think the community so much better. 36:07 So let's talk about what are some of those legal routes today? 36:13 Are you a fellow podcaster like me, the need to go and check out chartable.com, we've been using their tools over three months with amazing results. 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So you've got yourself a bottle of very, very old Fitzgerald or you got yourself a bottle of what Nate was talking about earlier, a really old bottle of bourbon supreme that probably actually isn't worth more the tassel. 38:20 Yeah, that really actually is I do have I do have that one. It's very, it's brought tears brought tears to my mother's eyes, because that was the same kind of Baba, she used to pour for my grandmother. Nice. So it was it was a memory thing. So it was really nice, but it's decent number, but I was like, All right. 38:38 So there are a few different ways that you can sort of regulate some of these things. And you know, in Kentucky, they passed the the vintage spirits law, which allows you to actually take vintage spirits. However, there's still a lot of gray areas and trying to figure out what actually is classified as vintage per se. But, you know, that's, that is one way that is a legal way to be able to sell some of your bottles, but still the unresolved, like the issues, like patties, for instance, if some still in distribution or on shelves, you're not allowed to 39:10 take part in that vintage law or whatever. So it's still kind of leave some holes or things left to be desired. 39:16 Yeah, I was about to say, and you know, Nate, you're, you're in, you're in the DC market. Correct. So that is the, I don't wanna say the Wild West. But 39:26 it's like Wilder, it's pretty 39:30 liberal, and it's like 39:30 or lost, its wilder than anybody else. Let's put it that way. And, and so the the rules that are in DC, for anybody that's kind of unaware about what you can do there. If you're a store, you can buy things on the open market, you can buy them from anybody else, and you can resell them in your stores. That's pretty, it's pretty willy nilly. And how that works. Do you think it would be in for you, Nate, would it be advantageous for other states to kind of have the these laws that allow people to sell through illegal routes, such as what DC does? Or does that hurt? 40:08 It would be useful, but good luck getting it through a control state like Virginia. I mean, it given an avenue to you know, they would have I think liquor buyers in DC kind of understand it's the Wild West, you know, if they see like, wow, this is open sale to Canada on the shelf at you know, my favorite liquor store just appeared there, right? obviously very old. Like, they know, it wasn't just they know the drill like Yep, somebody sold to them, they're going to sell it back to me like kind of understand that's the way it is. And this is a normal thing, but and you would trust them the historic and talk about trust to make sure that it's not you know, someone didn't take it dump it out, put Jim Beam minute versus you do it to the control state. This much more regulated now they have to make sure just like Kentucky the stuff like Kentucky, it's like, well, how do I know that what you're selling me this allegedly dusty Fitzgerald is actually a dusty opens zero. You know, I mean, they as a because they're they as in the control state, they have all the control, and they have all the responsibility. You know, and just just imagine the one time that they resell a bottle with something poisonous in it, you know, not that someone's like literally trying to poison but something got dumped it who knows how it could happen. It would only take one time, like, you know, front of a talk on Tuesday and only takes one really bad event. And in that kind of leads into a secondary market. Like what if we've talked we've seen the stories of folks getting, you know, getting hammered with fake counterfeit bottles, but what if it's something that's worse, you know, and then the and then the investigators follow that trail back to that community. It's over. I mean, it would take one time and it's over. So the control states are would take a very much more strict like, Oh, I gotta figure this stuff out. So you got to give me everything under the sun. You got to give me receipts, you gotta be verified that before they would take it do it versus, you know, DC being very lacks in terms of Asher, it looks like it looks like it's what it is. Go ahead and just resell it. buyer beware. 42:10 Yeah. And I guess, you know, one thing, I was kind of thinking of analogy, while you were talking about this, you know, buying and then reselling, it's, you know, you think of even Justin's House of bourbon and a lot of people that are doing this that they're essentially bourbon pawn shops. 42:23 Yeah, that's all they 42:24 really are. And it's, it's a way for them to kind of make their margins on on whatever that is they need to be able to buy, but you do bring up a really good point. How in you've got to be able to trust the store, in regards of Yeah, is this is this actually a very, very old Fitzgerald. I mean, I can just tell you, from my own personal experience, even being here in Louisville, that there is a store that I bought some stuff from and and then he was like, Hey, I got these other things in a customer sold them to me. And they were bottles of very, very old Fitzgerald. And, you know, he, he didn't really know exactly what the market price was, it's really hard for me to even figure it out for myself. But I also didn't have as much trust in the store to actually know if they are genuine or counterfeit, because they can't prove provenance. They don't know exactly how many times has traded hands. So do you see some some things like that, like as big causes per concern with with this type of law as well. 43:30 Certainly on a state by state basis, I mean, I think to an extent like the internet, the Auction House is the kind of figured out enough. And they understand how their reputation. Really, the reputation as an auction house is relies on the reputation that the items that they set for auction are what they say they are, because they understand that like, again, it only takes one or two bad ones, and then you get a bad reputation, and then even even the big auction houses can can really suffer for it. So it's just I know, it's Kentucky was trying to do a good thing there. But I'm not quite sure they thought it all the way through imitation is just I mean from this from the post that that sip and corn is put on, there's a lot of interesting stuff there and trying to figure it out. But you know, working that into some of these other state, I mean, it all just goes back to the damn 21st amendment. It's states, you got all the control, you get to figure out everything. And what we have is just a mess. And there's everything that we would think, you know, you'd be able to want to accomplish to do and it's just, you know, is it a question if we're not trying to solve the problem of? I mean, we have that the safety aspect is really big, but it's just like, I have a good, I want to sell it. Do you want to buy it? Let's make this happen. You know, give us the avenue to do that. You know, and it applies to, it applies to everything I you know, applies to all I get like the guy in the show talked about, you know, an AR 15. 45:10 He could sell it to his 45:13 cell to his buddy with no consequences. Nothing. But he could do the same thing with a bottle of jack daniels. Absolutely. It's a tough one. It's everything that we want to talk about everything we propose how we're going to get around 50 states 50 laws, 45:30 guns and liquor. 45:31 Yeah, it goes back to. And I think you brought up a good point Kenny about like, you know, having, Justin, I think if the word I have is legalized, you'd have to have a few dedicated store owners who would embrace this and make them like kind of the, because if you just go to everyday liquor stores, and people are buying and selling, like they're not going to give it as but they're not going to put as much thought into it as someone like Justin is because he comes from our community, he knows what to look for. You're not gonna have a dedicated person at each store to like, analyze and determine if these bottles are fake or real, or what are they they're not going to know. And so I can tell you, the average liquor barn employee probably won't know 46:12 exactly like that. Exactly. So I think the way it could work is having something like Justin's house and bourbon in each state or market or whatever to be that kind of go to place for the this kind of sales and the commerce side for total wine and liquor buying it by doesn't make sense for them to even enter that arena, because there's just, it's probably too much time and that they don't, they don't need to worry about. But the other thing I kind of want to talk about is, you know, we brought up auction houses a few times Nate has, and yeah, there's there's a lot of them out there. You've got Christie's there's actually quite a bit that happen. Most of them happen overseas, over in Europe. And yeah, you can you can ship your bottle to them, they'll inspect it, they'll give you a percentage of whatever it sells at auction. And this is a this is a legal route. And you can do this. There's there's nothing that stopping you from doing I think there's one maybe at a New York as well. I can't recall or there's one in California is too but 47:08 Southern beats does some too. 47:10 Yeah. And and I guess the question to you, Nate, is this helpful from a from a legal standpoint? Or does this actually is this is this bad? Maybe from a community standpoint? Because Could this be an increase in awareness, which also means increase in price for these type of items? 47:32 Well, it's very likely will be an increase in price for the things that you want to buy. That's been that the the nature of an auction, the advantage there is, obviously the tradition of auctions goes back a long, long, long, long time. So from a commerce perspective, regulators perspective, they understand that like, Oh, you want to have these things that goes to the things you want to sell goes to an auction house, and then they consider that, you know, a legal entity to move the product and make sure that it can it's not going to hands on people that it shouldn't go into. But yeah, it would definitely they auction based on their commission, commissions on the strike price, they're going to want higher prices, not that they're going to boost it artificially, but the nature of the auction, and the nature of the demand right now would mean that that wouldn't, that might solve the access problem, like you have the x, you have the ability to sell your ability to buy, but I don't think it would do anything for pricing, at least on the on the limited releases. 48:29 You don't think so? I kind of see it a little bit different, I think I think of, you know, 48:35 will say we'll say 2018 bottle of George t stag is will say, today's market at 350, 400, somewhere around there. You put this on a more visible market, something that is freely accessible to anybody to get to and it's it's publicize. It's got Facebook ads, it's got everything that is, you know, you can find through when you're scrolling through your phone and social media. And I think I think the price increases by another 15 20% because of of that right now. And somebody just commented that's a Skinner's auction is getting 23% buyers premium now. So there's there's definitely, I think, I think that would, I don't know, if it hurts values, it just increases them. For people that are trying to obtain it through those legal means as well, 49:27 well, it's just another hand and they they want their cuts. So it's going to naturally just increase because the fifth and sixth, fifth and sixth year and so 49:35 any kind of market you put in, it's going to be a 49:38 cut. It's amazing if you could count from the day is distilled this bourbon to like how many hands is exchanged to the secondary market, there's literally like from barrel brokers to distillers, to the bottling to distributors, retail stores to the it's amazing how many hands and middlemen there are this end. Mm hmm. 50:02 So the other thing that I kind of want to push over to you, Nate is, you know, what will say that it's Pandora's box, you can choose however this is going to work. If you were to have a legal secondary market. What would that what would that look like in your mind? 50:19 We talked a lot about a lot of the principles of it, how 50:24 I think for my personal opinion that the the core of it is to create a liquid market for both the products you're selling, and then the cash coming out. So that's important having a bonafide a market maker that would probably have to double as a Registered Agent to take the set bottles. So it'd be kind of a, they would probably have to have two hats. That was that is ready and willing to make a sale. Like their job is to not let that is to nudge the sellers to not sit at ridiculously high prices based on valuations just kind of pulling out of their behind. Like, no, they want, they're motivated to make a sale. And they like real estate agents, you know, like, 51:13 Yeah, exactly. Everything. 51:17 Right? I mean, it's like, and so I think gradually, that would bring a much more reasonable level more reasonable of of pricing for those bottles. And so you have the transparent you the transparency of the market, you have a motivated market maker, or set of market makers to make the sale. And the ability not only to have the individuals, you know, put bottles into sell and or facilitate trading, which it should absolutely should be a part of the set market as well. But the ability to actually get cash minus the appropriate taxes and fees, which are just going to have to be a part of it. In terms of, you know, then you have how do you solve the state? What How do you deal with the state's problem, apart from giving them their cut, based on the state year in a row is this I don't think this could be like a, you know, this market only exist in New York, you send your stuff to New York and all the transactions takes place take place in the state of New York, I don't think that would necessarily work. So I think, Well, perhaps not a federal solution, at least one that addresses all of the state's concerns. And I think having that again, that Registered Agent, who's also the market maker can do their best and do what they do to ensure that the folks don't get the wrong folks don't get those bottles, no keeps the market legitimate and keeps it legal. 52:45 I think Ryan brought up a pretty funny way to put this in regards of real estate, it could honestly be treated as such like that, you know, you've got your you've got your agents, you've got your your mortgage brokers, you've got all that these kind of people, but not necessarily that that sort of analogous to this, but you would have essentially an online listing market where people have valuations and you can buy at those particular prices. I don't know what the you know, the Zillow for bottle is Zillow, basically. But I don't I don't know like what the analogy is to there to say you default on your loan. And now you have to put your house up for auction. I don't know what the analogy is there that something would actually go to auction, let's say you just felt like, okay, we'll just see what the market will bear on something like this? 53:33 Well, I think like Nate said, it just kind of helps if you do have brokers and agents that kind of helps keep prices in line and what the true value is, versus just some abstract kind of number that we're pulling out, you know, in these markets currently. 53:49 And it's an interesting, I finished a book recently, it's kind of interesting analog here it was, it's all about the concert ticketing business. So the history of pricing and why we're paying such a normal prices that we have today. What it talks about a lot about the concert tickets, secondary market. I mean, they literally use the same word. So I'm listening this going, like, wow, this is just a lot of lessons here. What, you know, obviously, the industry is different, the products are different. But it especially when you get into the realm of Hey, some of these companies that are distilleries, are they they're public companies, right, they're not they're not the heaven hills, you know, the family run companies know, this has been Suntory, right. They're interested in shareholder value, and that the bottles of their product, have a value. And if it seemed that there is another avenue to unlock the greater value of those bottles, why would they not redirect that inventory to this other market where they can actually get that value? And that's what that's what Ticketmaster Live Nation and up to and actually Ticketmaster Live Nation, the promoters, the venues, the artists very interestingly enough for the shows go right to the secondary market. So they're getting those you know, it might have a face value for whatever that's worth of 3040 bucks, but really, the artist is getting a good chunk of the 200 300 $400 that's going for the secondary market. And the same way that again being Suntory they launch I don't know they just told I've taught my head right now that the signature 12 here, you know, they were normally the MSRP being at you know, 50 like wait a minute, we they have a Sastre you know that the value of that is actually 100 or so why the hell are someone else taken that 50 bucks as a beam Suntory shareholder Mind you, that's the you know, the avenue to take their it's like no, we have this is a very valid, we've created now this legal secondary market is a perfectly good way for them to take and unlock the value of those bottles and getting 50 bucks just as a you know, more per bottle. Wow. It's a Pandora's box here opening it. 55:54 Yeah, I was gonna say you opened up a can of worms while we're opening things up here. Because I mean, I couldn't even imagine if that were the thing that Yeah, the beams the will. It's the four roses, the the small distilleries down in Texas, whatever it is the you know, and there is there's too much red tape. There's too many laws today that that don't allow this to happen to just go straight to secondary. And and you bring up a good point of like, God, what what if that day actually came to be able to say, yeah, let's let's break down all these barriers like you, you make the product, you own the product, you figured out how to sell the product? And in the fact that it's a controlled substances is the bad part of being a? How has it has to be in regards to that you can't actually necessarily do what's best for commerce, I guess you could say sometimes, but I couldn't imagine a world that that happened. And honestly, I don't think it would be terrible if it did happen. 56:52 Well, and you kind of have some people doing that sort of art like well, it's I mean, hello. 57:00 They're pricing. But that's, that's a little bit different. Their pricing to be able to make sure that they're okay for themselves. But there's still there's still there's still a hand being traded to be able to make sure that they that, you know, they're still following the three tier system. However, yes, everybody does even doesn't matter what distiller you work for, there is somebody on the inside, that's in the groups that knows secondary values. And unlike y'all, we need to keep bumping these prices up because people aren't going to stop buying. 57:30 Well, not, but they're taking doing these prices to try and to deter, I guess it from going to secondary market. And so they're kind of doing but I mean, it's not working yet, because it's not gotten so crazy out of control. But like, for instance, you know, the Christmas, I went to Willits, and they were having 10 euros for $300, and 14 years for $450. And I'm like, well, that's way out of my way out of my price range. And, and then I just don't see anybody paying six 700 bucks for that for those types of bottles, you know, and but so I don't know, you know, they do that with that kind of help. Do what we're talking about, I guess, 58:15 I guess that's a good question. I mean, should should they should distilleries start pricing things so absurdly that it does sort of start killing this market? Little by little. 58:26 I could be I mean, look at Dave Becquerel, may he rest in peace, that was definitely his view. That's why you know, whistle pig was or the boss hogs or 500 bucks retail. And it's that that has stayed relatively consistent. They still obviously shows up in the secondary market, just good people are, you know, need to resell it's a, it's the role of the secondary market is not just for making money, it's some bits in it just to resell it like I have this good I no longer 58:52 access or anything. Exactly. 58:55 So it's in the end. I mean, there's so many things companies in the bourbon world that are private, you don't have to follow, they follow whatever rules they want saturate being the biggest among Of course, so they don't have that shareholder pressure. I'm just I think you think of the companies with the public companies and that kind of pressure from their shareholders. And it's just, you know, the, the nice things we talked about is bourbon enthusiast, and you know, the way that heaven Hill runs there, but that the family aspect, and we don't want it, we want to keep bourbon, affordable for everyone. So I'll keep prices low, it don't quite fly when it comes to public company and public shareholders have got to stand up in front and wonder, you know, why they're there. Why that X amount of dollars per every bottle sold is going to some own else, when it could be coming to the distillery. So, I mean, certainly will it it will it is like, it's actually a quite interesting example. I mean, because it wasn't just I mean, can you you guys are right there, you know how fast those prices have gone up at the gift shop itself. You know, in the past year or two, I had a guy that lives right around there. A friend of mine that I gave him some, somebody to grab me whatever they had, and it was, you know, a great 14 year bourbon, and he got it for 250 bucks for what, two years ago? And what are they going to said they were for 1514 years or so? They were for a little bit, but then they they kind of dropped down? They've been kind of all over the place. Yeah, really can't put it down. 1:00:18 But they just had a 15 year release. That was 250. So I just want to go back to the days when it's just 10 bucks. Yeah, 10 bucks a year was a nice. 1:00:28 Little, I think those days are behind us. 1:00:30 Oh, yes, they are. And I kind of want to sort of wrap this up with one final question. And that is to say that, you know, we needed mentioned, you know, we're in the media, we are bringing this to light like this is a thing. But we're not the only ones that have brought it to light. Like there's there's countless articles that are out there. There's been spirit industry shows where they have breakout sessions on sort of stuff like this, too. So nobody's unaware of this. But let's just say that the government it is sitting behind the lines right now. And they're watching everything. They're taking notes, and they're figuring out, how do they close down every secondary market outlet in one night? with how large this is gone through a community aspect? Do you think that if they were to close everything in one night, would it actually prevent a secondary market? Or would it be like, just like everything, what else would happen is like, you shut down a Facebook group, there's 12 more, they're going to spin up right behind it. 1:01:34 Well, yeah, the demands not going anywhere, certainly. And the beneficiary or should be the retailers who are charging secondary prices right now. I mean, you want the you can only do a quick check on wine searcher will tell you all you need to know about that, no matter what state you're in. So while you do, you would lose the trading aspect of the community aspect of it, demand wouldn't go away, and people want bottles, they'll just say pay the same price as they're willing to pay, you know, someone over it off. It would just go to their liquor store, go online and get a shift from New York and New York prices. It'll just happen if they want it, they'll they'll get it, you know, through another avenue in this case, you know, obviously illegal one retailer. But yeah, you would lose, you lose the community lose the trading, but you don't lose the demand. I mean, if that's the 1:02:23 demand, I might increase 1:02:24 the demand. Right? You then retailers, like wait a minute, I don't have this whole gray market or black market to deal with? I can make a deal, you know, price even higher, and there's someone that's willing to come, you know, and drop that kind of cash on it. Really, yeah. This problem has a lot of issue. The second year market has so many different angles and so many different things to you know, it means a lot to the bourbon means a lot to people I mean, it's a very personal kind of product. And and in the history of Kentu

Bourbon History keeps the memories of bourbon alive by bringing in subject matter experts to share their knowledge about a moment in time, or important person from bourbon history. Today's show features noted author Chuck Cowdery (Bourbon, Straight and Bourbon, Strange amongst other titles) to talk about Japan's role in saving bourbon. To learn more about Chuck, check out chuckcowdery.blogspot.com  – Bourbon History is proudly supported by the New Orleans Bourbon Festival. Don't miss this year's fun March 8 – 10 in New Orleans, Louisiana. You can learn more at nobourbonfest.com and get your tickets right here: https://goo.gl/w6kAD6 – Check us out at: abvnetwork.com. Join the ABV Network Revolution by adding #ABVNetworkCrew to your profile in social media.

This week Ginny Tonic talks to Chuck Cowdery about how he went from a marketing professional who only knew bourbon because that was cheap stuff his parents drank, to being one of the most well known bourbon bloggers in the United States. His story of growth and the love of Kentucky bourbon history is inspiring even if you don't love bourbon, but I can't imagine anyone who doesn't love bourbon.

Is the madness ever going to end? Are those unicorn bottles going to continue to climb in price for the future? How did we end up here? Past guest Chuck Cowdery, a bourbon authority, enlightens us to how the history of bourbon being an unwanted commodity created stocks of well aged whiskey that led us to the market we see today. It’s time to be your own boss! Learn more about franchising The UPS Store at http://theupsstorefranchising.com/bourbon Get 5% off your in-store and online orders at Art Eatables with offer code “Pursuit” Lets talk about the past and the bourbon, crisis, was it an overall understanding that bourbon might be extinct? At what point did you come in to see some of this first hand? How did advertising work for bourbon? How did you get it into the hands of elders? How did no one see this coming? Like literally no one. You talk about the resurgence of bourbon was partly because of the lack of drinkers because it led to the unintentional benefit of very well-aged whiskey What were distillers doing with this better aged whiskey? Do you think exports are the biggest benefactor? What were bourbon brands doing at the time to appeal to the Japanese and European markets? So people are buying whiskey again, how are distillers ramping up production? Was there a surge of more NDPs and independent bottlers buying sourced whiskey? Why do you call this a “not so attractive” trend? At what point did we start seeing the “shortage”? or is there really a shortage? Have NDPs died off because they can’t source or contract distill now? Will craft distillers put a dent in the market or are they just looking for their piece of the pie? Do you think any of these companies will be "under water" on their investments when the bourbon matures for sales in 4-12 years? Especially when they have to compete with the big boys as they are expanding. Do you think we are going to see people drop off because we don’t have a lot of well-aged whiskey now? We have distillers and craft distillers removing age statements. How will that effect the future? What’s the key to making this trend last?

Steve, Evan and Kaitlyn take a look at the life and career of one of their heroes, Bourbon Hall of Famer, Chuck Cowdery. The Bourbon Show music (Whisky on the Mississippi) is by Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com).

Bourbon Hall of Famer Chuck Cowdery sits down with Steve, Seth and Evan at the New Orleans Bourbon Festival.  He shares personal stories of some of the most famous and revered men in the bourbon industry.

Chuck Cowdery, Bourbon Author and media pundit, joins to talk about Jim Beam backpedaling it’s way out of Booker’s price increase and the unique purchases Sazerac is making to expand their footprint. Talk about how you got into bourbon in the beginning Give the listeners a quick background on your books The Booker's thing is on everyone's mind and you had a article calling their actions dumb and embarrassing Sazerac has purchased the Popcorn Sutton, a building in downtown New Orleans and more recently. Possibly attributed due to the success of Fireball. What’s on the horizon for them? Chuck on Facebook http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com  

This week on the podcast, Chuck Cowdery joins Mark and Jamie. The discussion ranges from marketing gimmicks from decades ago to today, the change in the whisky industry, and trends coming out in the future.

This week, we'll wrap up our conversation with Bourbon Hall of Fame member Chuck Cowdery, author of the new book "Bourbon: Strange" and get his views on more of the controversies facing the whisky industry. Diageo broke ground this week for the new Bulleit Bourbon distillery in Kentucky, and Chuck has some harsh words for the way Diageo and its predecessors have handled American whiskey in the past. He's also upset with what he and other critics see as lax oversight by federal regulators on whisky labeling, and doesn't hesitate to name names in Part 2 of our WhiskyCast In-Depth interview. In the news, we'll hear more from Tom Bulleit on the groundbreaking for the new Bulleit distillery and Cara Laing updates us on upcoming new whiskies from Douglas Laing & Co. Finally, we'll talk about the ALS Ice Bucket Challenge and the new Whiskey Ice Challenge in honor of Heaven Hill's Parker Beam, and Parker's wife Linda passed along a message to everyone supporting the fight against ALS.

Chuck Cowdery is regarded as one of the top Bourbon writers around, and is one of the few writers to be inducted into the Kentucky Bourbon Hall of Fame for his work. His latest book is "Bourbon: Strange", and Chuck debunks some of the mythology surrounding Bourbon while sharing some stories as well. He'll join us this week on WhiskyCast In-Depth for part one of a two-part interview, with the rest on next week's episode. In the news, Russia is now going after Jack Daniel's as the trade war with the West gets uglier, and we'll have the latest on new whiskies and new distilleries. Also, The Balvenie is kicking off its 2014 Rare Craft Collection tour this weekend on California's Monterey Peninsula, and three-time Indianapolis 500 winner Dario Franchitti will tell us how he selected the items for this year's collection. He'll also tell us about his private tasting session with The Balvenie's David Stewart, and why you won't see him driving the brand's vintage Morgan sports car any time soon.

Chuck Cowdery was writing about Bourbon back in the days when few people were paying attention to America's Native Spirit, and his work has earned him a spot in the Bourbon Hall of Fame. The author of "Straight Bourbon" and "The Bourbon Country Reader" tells us about Kentucky's love-hate relationship with Bourbon, long-gone distilleries, and the rebirth of interest in Bourbons. In the news, new whiskies from Jim Beam, Bunnahabhain, and Laphroaig, the Islay weather report, and a chat with "Whisky Classified" author Dr. David Wishart.