Podcast appearances and mentions of tony overbay

This is a follow-up conversation. Listen to the first episode here. Jeff Strong worked nearly 30 years in the consumer products industry as a senior executive at Procter & Gamble and global president and chief customer officer at Johnson & Johnson. He then taught in the Marriott School of Business at Brigham Young University and worked as an advisor to the Church before serving as a mission leader in the Arkansas Bentonville Mission. Jeff has since spent several years doing research on why people are leaving the Church. He recently published the book Torn: Why People We Love Are Leaving the Church and What We Can Learn from Them. Jeff lives in Midway, Utah, and stays busy with a little lavender farm, some business consulting, and enjoying family. Links Torn: Why People We Love Are Leaving the Church and What We Can Learn from Them Part 1: What Leaders Can Learn From the People Who Are Leaving the Church | An Interview with Jeff Strong What to Say When Loved Ones Leave the Church | An Interview with Jeff Strong and Joseph Grenny The Data Behind Church Culture | An Interview with Jeff Strong TornByJeffStrong.com Instagram: @tornbyjeffstrong Facebook Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights In this follow-up episode, Kurt and Jeff discuss the complexities of faith transitions. The conversation focuses on the four stages individuals typically experience when questioning their faith and the cultural imbalances that can affect their sense of belonging. 00:02:18 – Understanding Faith Transitions 00:05:23 – Four Stages of Faith Transition 00:09:01 – Intensive Seeking Phase 00:10:19 – Relational Breaking Stage 00:12:47 – Importance of Conversations in Faith Transitions 00:13:35 – Embracing Different Perspectives 00:18:00 – Role Play: Navigating Faith Questions 00:20:10 – The Need for New Thinking 00:24:29 – Cultural Imbalances in the Church 00:30:34 – Hard and Unyielding Soil 00:39:51 – Shallow Stony Soil: Growth vs. Sanctuary 00:44:08 – Balancing Sanctuary and Transformation Key Insights Four Stages of Faith Transition: Individuals often go through integrity disruption, permission to question, intensive seeking, and relational breaking. Each stage reflects a different aspect of their journey as they navigate doubts and seek understanding. Cultural Imbalances: Jeff identifies four cultural imbalances in the Latter-day Saint community, including hard and unyielding soil versus acceptance, and sanctuary versus transformation. These imbalances can alienate individuals who feel their beliefs or experiences do not align with community expectations. Importance of Acceptance: Acknowledging and validating the experiences of those questioning their faith is crucial. Leaders should create an environment where individuals feel safe to express doubts without fear of judgment or ostracism. Nourishment vs. Protection: The conversation emphasizes the need for a balance between the protective aspects of church culture and the nourishing elements that foster growth and transformation. Leaders should focus on providing spiritual nourishment to help individuals thrive. Role of Conversations: Open and supportive conversations can significantly impact whether individuals choose to stay within the faith community. Leaders should approach discussions with empathy and understanding, recognizing the importance of relational dynamics. Leadership Applications Foster Open Dialogue: Encourage open discussions about faith and doubts within congregations. Create safe spaces where members can share their experiences without fear of being labeled or judged. Balance Protection and Nourishment: Strive to create a culture that values both adherence to standards and the acceptance of diverse beliefs and experiences. This balance can help retain members who may feel marginalized. Supportive Leadership: Leaders should model vulnerability by sharing their own faith journeys and struggles. This approach can help normalize the questioning process and foster a sense of community and belonging among members. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Every first Friday of the month, Kurt Francom hosts Zion Lab Live, where we review the latest happenings and conversations taking place in Zion Lab and across our online community. Kurt highlights key posts, trending discussions, and new podcast episodes—offering insights, context, and opportunities for deeper engagement. Jump into Zion Lab: https://app.leadingsaints.org/ In this episode, Kurt and livestream guests discuss the challenges faced by young married adults in the Church, particularly their faith and social dynamics. The conversation also touches on Mother’s Day experiences and the importance of intellectual engagement in church settings. Links & Resources

Mindfulness isn't about emptying your mind or finally feeling calm—and believing it was is probably why you quit. Your emotions fire before your thinking brain ever catches up, which means most of your reactions—the defensiveness, the cravings, the snap judgments—are already in motion before you "decide" anything. In this conversation, Tony unpacks the neuroscience behind that gap and the genuinely doable practice that helps you notice your patterns sooner, build a pause, and respond to your life instead of just reacting to it. In this episode, you'll: Discover why you "feel before you think"—the low road and high road your brain takes, and why emotions fire roughly two and a half times faster than thoughts Learn to build the pause that turns automatic reactions (yes, including the fourth Oreo) into actual choices Untangle the real difference between meditation and mindfulness—and why the practice has roots in everything from Buddhist tradition to Christian contemplative prayer, no conversion required Understand why silence can feel so unbearable that people will choose a mild electric shock over sitting alone with their thoughts—and what that reveals about emotional avoidance Strengthen the "runway" between your internal smoke alarm and your inner fire chief using sleep, breath, and a practice you can start in the next sixty seconds Tony Overbay is a licensed marriage and family therapist and host of The Virtual Couch, drawing on his clinical work and four-plus years of daily practice to make mindfulness feel approachable instead of intimidating. Stay through the end for a short guided practice you can take with you—and remember, you're not failing when your mind wanders. You're not broken. You're human. Start with one breath today. 00:00 One Year Post Fusion 01:02 Trusting Physical Therapy 02:56 From Woo Woo to Mindfulness 05:05 No Magic Beans 10:03 The Pause Changes Everything 14:12 Stick Not Snake Brain 19:09 Oreos and Autopilot 22:07 Mindfulness and Maturity 28:56 Meditation Practice Tiers 30:31 My Daily Practice Origin 34:46 Meditation vs Mindfulness 35:28 Meditation Roots East West 38:02 Skepticism and Ownership 40:20 Meditation Styles Overview 42:34 Mindfulness Misconceptions 45:47 Mindfulness in Daily Life 48:33 Mindfulness History and MBSR 52:10 What Mindfulness Is Not 55:33 Brainwaves and Frequencies 58:47 Entrainment and Binaural Beats 01:02:52 Natural Sounds and Safety 01:05:15 Apophenia Pattern Seeking 01:06:41 Why Silence Feels Hard 01:10:22 Stimulation Dopamine Avoidance 01:11:46 Back to Beats and Apps 01:12:08 Meditation Apps I Use 01:12:26 Monroe Institute Hemi Sync 01:13:51 Gateway Process Hype 01:15:01 Binaural Beats Reality Check 01:16:07 Breathwork Science Basics 01:17:38 Vagus Nerve and HRV 01:19:33 Nasal vs Mouth Breathing 01:22:20 Diaphragmatic Breathing 01:23:43 Neurons Wire Together 01:25:01 Startle Response Runway 01:27:54 Lengthening the Runway 01:30:32 What We Learned Today 01:32:46 Guided Mindfulness Practice 01:38:19 This Too Shall Pass 01:39:54 You Are Not Broken 01:43:04 Closing Breath and Goodbye Please follow Tony on Instagram @virtual.couch on Tiktok @virtualcouch on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/tonyoverbaylmft and on Substack https://thevirtualcouch.substack.com/ You can reach out to Tony through his website tonyoverbay.com or by emailing contact @ tonyoverbay.com

Mindfulness isn't about emptying your mind or finally feeling calm—and believing it was is probably why you quit. Your emotions fire before your thinking brain ever catches up, which means most of your reactions—the defensiveness, the cravings, the snap judgments—are already in motion before you "decide" anything. In this conversation, Tony unpacks the neuroscience behind that gap and the genuinely doable practice that helps you notice your patterns sooner, build a pause, and respond to your life instead of just reacting to it. In this episode, you'll: Discover why you "feel before you think"—the low road and high road your brain takes, and why emotions fire roughly two and a half times faster than thoughts Learn to build the pause that turns automatic reactions (yes, including the fourth Oreo) into actual choices Untangle the real difference between meditation and mindfulness—and why the practice has roots in everything from Buddhist tradition to Christian contemplative prayer, no conversion required Understand why silence can feel so unbearable that people will choose a mild electric shock over sitting alone with their thoughts—and what that reveals about emotional avoidance Strengthen the "runway" between your internal smoke alarm and your inner fire chief using sleep, breath, and a practice you can start in the next sixty seconds Tony Overbay is a licensed marriage and family therapist and host of The Virtual Couch, drawing on his clinical work and four-plus years of daily practice to make mindfulness feel approachable instead of intimidating. Stay through the end for a short guided practice you can take with you—and remember, you're not failing when your mind wanders. You're not broken. You're human. Start with one breath today. 00:00 One Year Post Fusion 01:02 Trusting Physical Therapy 02:56 From Woo Woo to Mindfulness 05:05 No Magic Beans 10:03 The Pause Changes Everything 14:12 Stick Not Snake Brain 19:09 Oreos and Autopilot 22:07 Mindfulness and Maturity 28:56 Meditation Practice Tiers 30:31 My Daily Practice Origin 34:46 Meditation vs Mindfulness 35:28 Meditation Roots East West 38:02 Skepticism and Ownership 40:20 Meditation Styles Overview 42:34 Mindfulness Misconceptions 45:47 Mindfulness in Daily Life 48:33 Mindfulness History and MBSR 52:10 What Mindfulness Is Not 55:33 Brainwaves and Frequencies 58:47 Entrainment and Binaural Beats 01:02:52 Natural Sounds and Safety 01:05:15 Apophenia Pattern Seeking 01:06:41 Why Silence Feels Hard 01:10:22 Stimulation Dopamine Avoidance 01:11:46 Back to Beats and Apps 01:12:08 Meditation Apps I Use 01:12:26 Monroe Institute Hemi Sync 01:13:51 Gateway Process Hype 01:15:01 Binaural Beats Reality Check 01:16:07 Breathwork Science Basics 01:17:38 Vagus Nerve and HRV 01:19:33 Nasal vs Mouth Breathing 01:22:20 Diaphragmatic Breathing 01:23:43 Neurons Wire Together 01:25:01 Startle Response Runway 01:27:54 Lengthening the Runway 01:30:32 What We Learned Today 01:32:46 Guided Mindfulness Practice 01:38:19 This Too Shall Pass 01:39:54 You Are Not Broken 01:43:04 Closing Breath and Goodbye Please follow Tony on Instagram @virtual.couch on Tiktok @virtualcouch on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/tonyoverbaylmft and on Substack https://thevirtualcouch.substack.com/ You can reach out to Tony through his website tonyoverbay.com or by emailing contact @ tonyoverbay.com

Orlando R. Kelm is a retired professor from the University of Texas at Austin. He served in the Department of Spanish and Portuguese and the McCombs School of Business for over 37 years, teaching courses in Portuguese and Spanish language and linguistics. His research and publications focused on the cultural aspects of cross-cultural communication and the creative use of technology in language learning. Orlando was born in Calgary, Alberta, raised in Taylorsville, Utah, and educated at Brigham Young University and the University of California at Berkeley. He served in the São Paulo Norte Brazil mission, and his three favorite hobbies are studying foreign languages, acoustic guitar, and astrophotography and nature photography. Orlando recently published the book It's a Patriarchal Blessing!. Links It’s a Patriarchal Blessing Email Before a Patriarchal Blessing (Microsoft Word format) Email Before a Patriarchal Blessing (PDF format) Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Highlights Orlando discusses his experiences as a patriarch and the significance of patriarchal blessings. He emphasizes the importance of viewing these blessings as affirmations of identity and divine potential rather than as mere checklists or warnings. 00:02:28 – Orlando’s Calling as a Patriarch 00:03:52 – Challenges of Starting as a Patriarch 00:04:48 – Training and Preparation for Patriarchs 00:05:41 – The Pressure of Giving a Blessing 00:06:29 – Communicating First-Time Blessings 00:07:06 – Orlando’s Role as the Only Patriarch 00:07:55 – Impact on Gospel Study and Preparation 00:08:34 – Revelation and Inspiration in Preparation 00:09:40 – The Importance of Compassion 00:10:37 – Note-Taking for Blessings 00:12:00 – Reviewing and Editing Blessings 00:13:27 – The Nature of Patriarchal Blessings 00:14:35 – Preparing Candidates for Blessings 00:17:30 – Helping Candidates Feel Comfortable 00:19:06 – The Role of Patriarchs in the Church 00:20:10 – The Blessing Aspect of Patriarchal Blessings 00:21:09 – Avoiding a Checklist Mentality 00:22:32 – The Role of Personal Agency 00:23:36 – Orlando’s List of Recommended Talks 00:24:45 – Reducing Anxiety for Candidates 00:26:07 – The Experience of Giving Blessings 00:27:30 – The Importance of Seeing Potential 00:28:59 – Understanding Lineage in Blessings 00:30:33 – The Significance of Covenant and Gathering 00:31:47 – Contributions of Different Tribes 00:33:44 – The Role of Personal Revelation 00:35:58 – Flexibility in Interpreting Blessings 00:37:09 – The Lifelong Relevance of Blessings Key Insights The Nature of Patriarchal Blessings: These blessings should be viewed fundamentally as a positive source of love and divine identity. Orlando emphasizes that they are not patriarchal warnings, admonitions, or “chewing outs,” but rather tools to help individuals understand their divine worth. Preparation as a Patriarch: The process involves intense, ongoing spiritual preparation. Orlando explains that he often feels like a “faucet that cannot be turned off” in the days leading up to a blessing, as he studies scriptures and topics prompted by the Holy Ghost to prepare his mind to receive impressions. Mortal Delivery of Revelation: Patriarchs receive inspiration, but they must articulate it using their own mortal capacity, vocabulary, and understanding. Consequently, a patriarchal blessing is a collaboration between the Spirit and the patriarch’s mortal expression. The Fallacy of the “Checklist”: Recipients should avoid viewing their blessings as a list of required events (e.g., marriage, missions, children) to be checked off. Instead, they should see the blessing as a resource to be applied to all of life’s decisions, challenges, and experiences. Understanding Lineage: The declaration of lineage is not a DNA test but an invitation to participate in the Abrahamic covenant and the gathering of Israel. Each tribe's unique description provides a different “skill set” for how an individual can contribute to the Lord’s work. Leadership Applications Alleviate Anxiety: Leaders can help reduce the nervousness people feel about visiting a patriarch by fostering opportunities for the patriarch to interact with ward members (e.g., firesides, sacrament meetings, or activities) beforehand, making him a familiar figure rather than a stranger. Foster a Broad Interpretation: Bishops and leaders should encourage members to interpret their patriarchal blessings with flexibility. When members feel confused by their blessing, leaders can help them understand that the meanings may evolve and deepen as they face different stages and challenges in life. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

A heads-up before you press play: this is a bonus crossover from my true crime podcast, Murder on the Couch, dropping into your Virtual Couch / Waking Up to Narcissism feed. It's heavier than usual and opens with a disturbing familicide case that I don't sugarcoat, so if that's not where you are right now, it's completely okay to sit this one out and come back when you're ready. If you stay, I use the case to get at the things we talk about all the time—shame, compartmentalization, the altruistic defense, emotional immaturity, and differentiation—because the behavior is horrific, but the psychology underneath it is deeply human. John List killed his wife, his mother, and his three children—then walked away convinced God would understand. Murder on the Couch is back. Licensed therapist Tony Overbay reopens one of true crime's most chilling family annihilation cases, but not for the manhunt or the famous 18 years List spent hiding in plain sight as "Bob Clark." Tony sits with the question that actually keeps him up at night: how does a devout, rule-following Sunday school teacher reach a place where murder becomes, in his own mind, the most loving thing he could do? If you've ever performed "fine" while something was quietly falling apart inside you, this one lands closer to home than you'd expect. In this episode: Untangle guilt ("I did something bad") from shame ("I am bad")—and why shame left in the dark only grows heavier Spot the "altruistic defense": how control and harm get repackaged as love, devotion, and protection See how rigidity, compartmentalization, and a performed self can hollow a person out long before any crisis hits Learn the ACT distinction between the conceptualized self (the story) and the observing self (the awareness)—and why List had no one home to catch him when the story collapsed Drawing on acceptance and commitment therapy, David Schnarch's work on differentiation, and Richard Rohr's reframe of shame, Tony brings 600-plus episodes of clinical insight to the cases that won't let him go. Shame grows in concealment and shrinks in connection. And Tony's looking for a co-host—if a case has gotten under your skin and you know why, email contact@tonyoverbay.com and pitch it. 00:00 Bonus Episode Setup 00:21 Murder on the Couch Returns 02:56 Content Warning and Themes 05:53 John List Case Opens 08:46 Show Relaunch and Co-Host Invite 12:40 John List Background and Unraveling 17:31 Compartmentalization Explained 19:53 Shame Versus Guilt 24:21 ACT Defusion and Healing 25:47 Shame Architecture of John List 28:21 Altruistic Defense and Covert Narcissism 30:49 Narcissistic Injury 31:26 Altruistic Defense 35:32 Love Versus Control 36:29 Rigidity Explained 38:08 Rules And Fragility 42:06 Eighteen Years Hidden 45:40 Conceptualized Self 48:35 Excavating The Self 52:56 Why This Case Haunts 54:31 Faith And Performance 58:07 Tell The Truth 59:41 Closing And Co-Hosts Please follow Tony on Instagram @virtual.couch on Tiktok @virtualcouch on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/tonyoverbaylmft and on Substack https://thevirtualcouch.substack.com/ You can reach out to Tony through his website tonyoverbay.com or by emailing contact @ tonyoverbay.com

A heads-up before you press play: this is a bonus crossover from my true crime podcast, Murder on the Couch, dropping into your Virtual Couch / Waking Up to Narcissism feed. It's heavier than usual and opens with a disturbing familicide case that I don't sugarcoat, so if that's not where you are right now, it's completely okay to sit this one out and come back when you're ready. If you stay, I use the case to get at the things we talk about all the time—shame, compartmentalization, the altruistic defense, emotional immaturity, and differentiation—because the behavior is horrific, but the psychology underneath it is deeply human. John List killed his wife, his mother, and his three children—then walked away convinced God would understand. Murder on the Couch is back. Licensed therapist Tony Overbay reopens one of true crime's most chilling family annihilation cases, but not for the manhunt or the famous 18 years List spent hiding in plain sight as "Bob Clark." Tony sits with the question that actually keeps him up at night: how does a devout, rule-following Sunday school teacher reach a place where murder becomes, in his own mind, the most loving thing he could do? If you've ever performed "fine" while something was quietly falling apart inside you, this one lands closer to home than you'd expect. In this episode: Untangle guilt ("I did something bad") from shame ("I am bad")—and why shame left in the dark only grows heavier Spot the "altruistic defense": how control and harm get repackaged as love, devotion, and protection See how rigidity, compartmentalization, and a performed self can hollow a person out long before any crisis hits Learn the ACT distinction between the conceptualized self (the story) and the observing self (the awareness)—and why List had no one home to catch him when the story collapsed Drawing on acceptance and commitment therapy, David Schnarch's work on differentiation, and Richard Rohr's reframe of shame, Tony brings 600-plus episodes of clinical insight to the cases that won't let him go. Shame grows in concealment and shrinks in connection. And Tony's looking for a co-host—if a case has gotten under your skin and you know why, email contact@tonyoverbay.com and pitch it. 00:00 Bonus Episode Setup 00:21 Murder on the Couch Returns 02:56 Content Warning and Themes 05:53 John List Case Opens 08:46 Show Relaunch and Co-Host Invite 12:40 John List Background and Unraveling 17:31 Compartmentalization Explained 19:53 Shame Versus Guilt 24:21 ACT Defusion and Healing 25:47 Shame Architecture of John List 28:21 Altruistic Defense and Covert Narcissism 30:49 Narcissistic Injury 31:26 Altruistic Defense 35:32 Love Versus Control 36:29 Rigidity Explained 38:08 Rules And Fragility 42:06 Eighteen Years Hidden 45:40 Conceptualized Self 48:35 Excavating The Self 52:56 Why This Case Haunts 54:31 Faith And Performance 58:07 Tell The Truth 59:41 Closing And Co-Hosts Please follow Tony on Instagram @virtual.couch on Tiktok @virtualcouch on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/tonyoverbaylmft and on Substack https://thevirtualcouch.substack.com/ You can reach out to Tony through his website tonyoverbay.com or by emailing contact @ tonyoverbay.com

Cole Zesiger is a breakup and relationship coach, author, and content creator who specializes in helping people navigate heartbreak, healing, and healthy relationships. After experiencing a divorce at 23 and another difficult breakup soon after, Cole began openly sharing his journey online, eventually growing an audience of more than 750,000 followers across Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and other platforms. Through his coaching programs, online community, and content, he has helped over 2,000 people work through breakups, strengthen their self-worth, improve communication, and build healthier relationships. His practical approach blends psychology, attachment theory, faith, and real-world experience to help people either reconcile in healthier ways or move forward with peace and confidence. Cole grew up in Utah and served as a missionary in the Manila Philippines Mission. He married his wife, Jocelyn, in 2023, and together they are raising their daughter, Daisy. When he's not coaching or creating content, Cole enjoys playing guitar, dirt biking, wildlife photography, and exploring the mountains. His debut book, Ex's and No's: The Breakup Advice You Don't Want to Hear, offers a roadmap for rebuilding confidence, healing attachment wounds, and creating lasting love. Links Ex’s and No’s: The Breakup Advice You Don’t Want to Hear CoachColeZesiger.com Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights Cole Zesiger discusses navigating early divorce and breakups within the Young Single Adult (YSA) community of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The conversation focuses on dismantling the spiritual stigma surrounding failed marriages and provides actionable methods for processing relationship trauma. 00:02:06 – Cole’s Journey Through Divorce 00:05:08 – The Reality of Early Marriage Challenges 00:07:56 – Understanding Attachment Styles 00:10:41 – The Impact of Divorce on Self-Perception 00:12:27 – The Aftermath of Divorce 00:14:06 – Reflecting on Past Relationships 00:17:14 – The Importance of Community Support 00:20:27 – Addressing the YSA Experience with Divorce 00:22:09 – Normalizing Divorce in Church Culture 00:24:34 – Understanding God’s Role in Relationships 00:27:10 – Creating Depth in Relationships 00:30:02 – The Importance of Service in Marriage 00:32:11 – Supporting Those Experiencing Divorce 00:35:37 – Best Practices for YSA Leaders 00:39:30 – Building a Present Worth Living In Key Insights The Perfection Stigma: Many young Latter-day Saints internalize a strict cultural path (e.g., mission, temple marriage) as a guarantee of success, leading to intense shame, identity crises, and a sense of absolute personal failure if a marriage ends in divorce. Anxious Attachment and Relationship Mechanics: Childhood and mission environments can inadvertently cultivate anxious attachment styles, causing individuals to compulsively try to “will a relationship into existence” or over-sacrifice personal needs rather than assessing core value compatibility. God's Will and Adversity: Divine promptings to marry do not mean God guaranteed a problem-free relationship; rather, adversity and divorce can be part of a broader spiritual landscape designed to build critical emotional skills and resilience. The Physiology of Heartbreak: Neurologically, overcoming a major breakup mimics chemical detox patterns seen in severe substance withdrawals, highlighting that the profound grief experienced by individuals is an intense physiological reality that requires intentional time to navigate. Active Relationship Maintenance: Sustainable long-term intimacy requires entering the “deep end” of a relationship by prioritizing consistent service actions strictly to maintain one's own love for their partner rather than doing so out of a codependent need for constant reciprocation. Leadership Applications Initiate Purposeful Social Inclusion: Leaders should deliberately look out for divorced or grieving ward members, actively connecting them to peer networks and social activities to replace isolation with a forward-looking sense of belonging. Shift the Spiritual Narrative: When counseling individuals facing separation, leaders can help reframe their perspective from viewing divorce as an identity-defining failure or sin to treating it as a difficult life trial that offers space for grace and personal growth. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

You can't forgive a narcissistic or emotionally immature partner—and you think that makes you a bad person. It doesn't. For anyone who's been on the receiving end of years of criticism, betrayal, or being subtly "nothinged" in a relationship, the well-meaning prescription to "just forgive and forget" can sting more than the original harm. In this follow-up to his earlier episode on acceptance versus forgiveness, Tony goes deeper into the architecture beneath it—why your nervous system can't comply on someone else's timeline, and what actually hands the keys back to you. In this episode, you'll: Meet Wally and Edwina—a case study in nice guy syndrome, covert contracts, and what twenty years of co-dysregulation can do to a body before it lands you in the ER Understand why forgiveness is other-validated (it requires the harm-doer's participation) while acceptance is self-validated and yours to complete on your own timeline Explore David Schnarch's four points of balance and the concept of borrowed functioning—how you end up renting your sense of "okay-ness" from a critical partner Learn why James Coan's social baseline theory means solo mindfulness is only half the story, and what calm, confident energy actually looks like when it lands in the body Hear a faith-centered reframe for Christian listeners who've been told that good forgiveness means swimming harder while still inside the wreckage With over twenty years and 1,700+ couples in his clinical practice, Tony Overbay, LMFT, brings the framework beneath a phrase you've heard a thousand times. If you've been quietly running a covert contract or beating yourself up for not being able to "just let it go," this episode is for you. You're not broken. You're human—and you're right where you need to be. Please follow Tony on Instagram @virtual.couch on Tiktok @virtualcouch on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/tonyoverbaylmft and on Substack https://thevirtualcouch.substack.com/ You can reach out to Tony through his website tonyoverbay.com or by emailing contact@tonyoverbay.com 01:11 Meet Edwina Criticism 03:31 Covert Contract Explained 05:18 ER Wake Up Call 06:57 Edwina Reaction Fallout 09:11 Years Later Apathy 10:15 Therapy Apology Rage 11:31 Pastor Says Forgive 14:30 Episode Setup Questions 15:29 Acceptance Versus Forgiveness 17:27 Differentiation Co Regulation 21:11 Narcissism Versus Immaturity 26:13 Emotional Maturity Skills 31:33 Lens One Differentiation 34:27 Social Baseline Theory 35:26 Wally's Chaos Sync 37:46 Edwina's Criticism Roots 39:32 Calm Confident Energy 40:13 Four Points Balance 45:24 Acceptance Needs Safety 49:24 Forgiveness Versus Acceptance 52:55 Pressure to Forgive 56:29 Acceptance for Believers 01:02:53 What We Learned Today 01:08:35 Wally's Ongoing Healing

Former mission president Bart Warner and his former missionary James Logan explore the dynamics, patterns, and spiritual impact of mentorship. Drawing from their shared history in the Texas Dallas Mission and their current professional collaboration, they discuss how deliberate interpersonal guidance fosters long-term progression. They focus on overcoming personal stagnation by cultivating effective mentor-mentee relationships to strengthen individuals and build Zion. Links Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights Bart and James discuss the importance of building relationships, the role of agency, and the impact of mentorship on personal and professional growth. 00:03:26 – Relationship Between Bart and James 00:04:04 – Bart’s Mission Presidency Experience 00:05:07 – Mentorship Principles 00:07:58 – Bart’s Influential Mentors 00:09:14 – James’ Background Before the Mission 00:10:11 – James’ Decision to Serve a Mission 00:12:11 – First Impressions of Bart as Mission President 00:13:01 – James’ Initial Struggles on the Mission 00:15:14 – The Importance of Following Mission Rules 00:17:14 – Spiritual Experiences on the Mission 00:19:46 – Agency and Mentorship 00:20:29 – The Role of Agency in Life 00:24:39 – Seeking Help from Others 00:25:57 – The Impact of Mentorship 00:28:07 – James’ Career Journey Post-Mission 00:30:06 – Bart’s Mentorship Approach 00:32:38 – The Evolution of Their Mentorship Relationship 00:35:29 – Learning from Mistakes in Business 00:37:00 – The Importance of Agency in Mentorship 00:39:03 – Lessons from Personal Experiences Key Insights The Danger of Spiritual Drifting: Referring to Napoleon Hill’s Outwitting the Devil, Bart explains that a primary tool of adversary-led stagnation is convincing individuals that “drifting” or coasting comfortably through life without progressing is acceptable. A Great Mentee Attracts a Great Mentor: Finding guidance begins with the posture of the learner. True mentorship thrives when a mentee actively desires progression, remains coachable, and seeks out wisdom during times of critical personal or spiritual need. Strict Obedience Unlocks Spiritual Momentum: Reflecting on James’s early mission struggles, the guests highlight how committing to precise alignment with established standards (like the missionary handbook) for even one week can completely shift an individual’s momentum and open doors to transformative experiences. The Dual Impact of Mentorship: True guidance is a mutual blessing. While the mentee receives navigation and structural metrics to succeed, the mentor is simultaneously sharped, humbled, and revitalized by watching the next generation progress. Leadership Applications Intervene with High-Expectation Challenges: When a ward member or missionary wants to give up, leaders can follow Bart’s example by offering a short-term, clear challenge rooted in exact covenant precision rather than immediately lowering expectations. Intentionally Bridge Generation Gaps: Leaders can structurally pair experienced members with younger adults in callings, ward council configurations, or ministering assignments to ensure that lived spiritual and temporal wisdom is actively transferred. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Gifford Nielsen played quarterback for Brigham Young University and six years for the NFL's Houston Oilers. He worked as the sports director for KHOU-TV in Houston for 25 years. In 1994, Giff was inducted into the College Football Hall of Fame. He was sustained as a General Authority Seventy of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 2013 and served as an Assistant Executive Director in the Missionary Department and in the Pacific, North America Northeast, North America Central and Africa West Area Presidencies. He was granted Emeritus status in 2024. Giff was born in Provo, Utah, and married Wendy Olson. They are the parents of six children. Links Find out more information about the cruise at SeaSaints.com. Use code LEADINGSAINTS to be part of our onboard experience. Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights Elder Nielsen explores how leadership principles from sports, professional media, and church service converge to build unified communities and lift individuals. He emphasizes how alignment with modern prophets and an openness to revelation elevate local leadership. 00:02:41 – Gifford Nielsen’s Background and Career 00:04:00 – Call to Serve as a General Authority 00:08:02 – Initial Experiences as a General Authority 00:10:07 – Preparing for General Conference Talks 00:12:43 – The Process of Receiving Inspiration 00:16:37 – Speaking at General Conference: Experiences 00:19:02 – Leadership Lessons from State Conferences 00:22:40 – Teaching Principles from Apostles and Prophets 00:25:14 – Importance of Gratitude in Leadership 00:29:00 – Reflections on Leadership and Service 00:32:05 – Learning from Lavell Edwards 00:38:04 – Transitioning Out of General Authority Role 00:40:21 – Experiences in West Africa 00:41:25 – Leadership Lessons from Lavell Edwards 00:44:44 – Lavell Edwards’ Genuine Leadership Style Key Insights The Power of Shared Gatherings: Larger church events, devotionals, and conferences foster a strong sense of togetherness that naturally pushes away negative outside influences and spiritually revitalizes participants. Dynamic, Spirit-Led Instruction: Effective leadership teaching involves adjusting prepared messages in real time based on the immediate spiritual needs, hearts, and faces of the congregation. Continuous Personal Preparation: Rather than relying solely on structured notes, a leader’s preparation must be a daily habit of scripture study, deep pondering, and intentional spiritual readiness. Prophetic Alignment: Local teaching gains transformative power when leaders deliberately anchor their messages in the specific doctrines and priorities emphasized by the living prophet. Authentic Preparation and People Management: Successful leadership requires a balance of understanding structural logistics (“the X’s and O’s”) while remaining fundamentally focused on breaking down barriers to unite and care for people. Leadership Applications Adapting Teaching Formats: Rather than adhering rigidly to pre-written notes during a stake or ward conference, a leader can observe the congregation, look into their hearts, and allow impressions to dictate the ultimate focus of the instruction. Implementing Daily Spiritual Habits: Leaders can shift from last-minute meeting preparation to a model of daily scripture immersion, ensuring they are always spiritually prepared to receive revelation whenever an unexpected counseling or teaching opportunity arises. Unifying Specialized Councils: When working with various ward or stake organizations, a leader can focus on breaking down institutional silos to build a culture of authentic collaboration focused entirely on the individuals they serve. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

John Bushman served as a bishop for 6.5 years, as a member of many bishoprics, and currently serves as a Gospel Doctrine teacher. He has been a Seminaries and Institutes of Religion coordinator, Institute instructor, and is now a Seminary instructor. He has also taught EFY and FSY for 20 years. John loves hiking and going on adventures of most any kind. Links King Before Kingdom Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights John Bushman explores the necessity of a “faithful revival” centered on Jesus Christ rather than the institutional church. He argues that while the restored church is essential, members and leaders often mistake the “kingdom” for the “king,” leading to a checklist-based faith. The discussion focuses on transitioning from a culture of “legalism” to one of genuine “regeneration” through a relationship with the Savior. 00:04:04 – Importance of Collaboration in Leadership 00:05:39 – The Most Important Part of Sacrament Meeting 00:08:06 – The Concept of Revival in the Church 00:10:57 – Spiritual Sleep in the Church 00:12:16 – The Challenge of Routine in Worship 00:13:04 – The Importance of Understanding “Why” 00:14:28 – The Purpose of Church Services 00:19:00 – Faith vs. Knowledge in the Gospel 00:24:01 – The New Covenant vs. Old Covenant 00:27:25 – The Role of Jesus in Salvation 00:28:47 – The Shift Towards Jesus-Centered Worship 00:30:35 – The Importance of Personal Conversion Stories 00:32:51 – The Relationship Between Church and Christ 00:36:20 – The Role of Church Leaders in Focusing on Jesus 00:39:21 – The Concept of Legalism in Faith 00:44:50 – Moving Beyond Legalism to Grace Key Insights The “King” vs. the “Kingdom”: Bushman emphasizes that the church is the vehicle (the kingdom), but Jesus Christ is the destination (the king). A faithful revival occurs when the focus shifts from just belonging to the organization to surrendering to the Savior. Conversion vs. Testimony: A testimony often focuses on the truth of facts (e.g., Joseph Smith was a prophet), whereas true conversion is the decision to stop doing things one’s own way and surrender life to Jesus. The New Covenant of Faith: Bushman clarifies that “faith” in the New Testament is better understood as “trust” or “reliance,” similar to the trust one places in a surgeon. It is an internal change of heart rather than just an outward performance of commandments. Avoiding “Spiritual Autopilot”: Routines, such as the sacrament or repetitive church meetings, can lead to a “spiritual sleep” where members go through the motions without emotional or spiritual connection to God. Regeneration Over Prohibition: True change (regeneration) happens when a person no longer desires to do evil because their heart has been changed by grace, which is more effective than “prohibition” or simply following a list of “don’ts”. Leadership Applications Pattern Interrupts in Meetings: Leaders can revitalize routine ordinances by adding brief, 60-second “pattern interrupts”. For example, a bishop might briefly challenge the ward to think of one specific way to remember the Lord during the upcoming week just before the sacrament is administered. Shifting the “Why” of Meetings: Leaders should evaluate if their meetings are designed to increase knowledge (factoids) or to facilitate a “worship service” that connects individuals with divinity. Focusing on Redemption in Interviews: When working with members on repentance or baptism, John suggests focusing on the member’s commitment to follow Jesus for the rest of their lives rather than just confirming they believe the Church is true. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Your partner said all the right things. So why do you feel MORE alone than before you opened up? Welcome to positive invalidation. That strange ache—being reassured into invisibility—has a name. It's what happens when "you're so good at your job, don't even worry about it" lands like a door quietly closing on what you actually feel. In this episode, Tony Overbay unpacks the science of validation, the paradox underneath it, and why the partner who soothes you fastest may be regulating their own nervous system, not seeing yours. Through the story of Archie and Veronica, this episode explores: Why positive invalidation stings more than the obvious kind—and how to spot it inside your own well-meaning reassurances Dr. Marsha Linehan's "kernel of truth" definition of validation, plus Tony's four pillars of a connected conversation David Schnarch's distinction between other-validated and self-validated intimacy—and why needing validation is the real trap The co-regulation research (including the famous fMRI hand-holding study) that explains why your partner's bad day becomes your emergency The four stages of competence, from "unconscious incompetence" to actually living it—and why stage two is where most people quit therapy HALT, upstream versus downstream work, and a surprising tangent into energy landscapes and Buddhist non-self As a licensed marriage and family therapist who's spent decades guiding couples back toward each other, Tony weaves together DBT, ACT, and Schnarch's differentiation work to answer one question: can you give validation as a gift without needing it back? If something here resonates, share it with someone who needs to hear that they're not broken—they're human. Please follow Tony on Instagram @virtual.couch on Tiktok @virtualcouch on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/tonyoverbaylmft and on Substack https://thevirtualcouch.substack.com/ You can reach out to Tony through his website tonyoverbay.com or by emailing contact @ tonyoverbay.com 00:00 Welcome and Disclaimer 02:28 Meet Archie and Veronica 03:07 A Compliment That Hurts 05:08 Positive Invalidation Explained 06:35 Where Invalidation Comes From 09:10 Science of Validation and DBT 09:49 Four Pillars of Connection 12:31 Validation Research and Polarization 14:52 Schnarch and Differentiation 18:05 Self-Validated Intimacy 19:08 Non-Self and Interdependence 22:58 Co-Regulation and Fusion 26:08 When Comfort Is for You 28:11 Co-Regulation as Hope 28:57 When Growth Triggers Chaos 30:03 Energy Landscapes Explained 32:01 Biology of Pushback 35:02 Validation Paradox 38:12 Self-Validated Intimacy 41:12 Building Self-Validation 46:20 Veronica and Archie Revisited 47:09 Upstream vs Downstream 51:37 Four Stages of Change 55:00 Key Takeaways and Wrap

After almost 30 years, she finally told her narcissistic husband she wanted out. His response was a multi-page letter that sounds like love and lands like a trap. If you've ever received "the letter" — the one that arrives days after you've finally spoken the words you've been swallowing for years — you already know the whiplash. The apologies that aren't apologies. The sudden warmth bolted onto the accusations. The quiet threat tucked inside the concern. A listener sent Tony exactly that letter, and in this episode he walks through it line by line, naming roughly sixteen distinct manipulation moves most partners can feel but can't always put into words. In this episode: Decode 16 manipulation moves hiding in plain sight: the "apology clock," the branding campaign ("you gave up"), the splitting, the Hoover, the staged joint meeting with the kids, and the final pathologizing exit line Understand the "attack surface" concept — why your silence felt safe, and why finally telling the truth invites retaliation Recognize what's actually happening when a pathologically kind partner goes flat after years of fighting for the marriage Learn the three real parts of an apology, and why "I'm sorry that you feel…" is never one of them See why this letter is a fused document in ACT terms, and how cognitive fusion makes a real conversation nearly impossible Tony Overbay is a licensed marriage and family therapist with over two decades of experience helping partners untangle narcissistic and emotionally immature relationship dynamics. If this letter sounded familiar, you're not crazy and you're not alone — naming the moves is usually where the fog starts to lift. Share this episode with the person who needs it. Please follow Tony on Instagram @virtual.couch on Tiktok @virtualcouch on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/tonyoverbaylmft and on Substack https://thevirtualcouch.substack.com/ You can reach out to Tony through his website tonyoverbay.com or by emailing contact @ tonyoverbay.com 00:00 Shot Heard Round World 02:12 Marriage Exit Backstory 05:23 Reading His Letter 13:55 Letter Dissection Begins 15:07 Move One You Win 17:08 Move Two Apology Clock 18:31 Move Three Discredit Therapy 23:03 Move Four Ammo Threat 25:53 Move Five Provider Entitlement 27:58 Move Six Smear Branding 29:47 Move Seven Weaponized Vows 32:33 Move Eight Assertiveness Pathologized 32:38 Redefining Her Strength 34:00 Splitting Into Two Wives 35:47 Sit Back and Take It 36:53 Kids as Leverage 40:21 Fake Apologies and Punishment 42:28 The Hoover Pivot 43:41 Anti-Introspection Reset 45:04 Illusion of Choice Trap 53:30 Threads and Weaponized Tools 55:19 ACT Fusion and Wrap Up 56:33 Closing Encouragement and Growth

Dustin Peterson is the founder and president of Proof Leadership Group, a leadership consultancy that works with organizations to train leaders and help develop their company culture. He is also an author and recently published his fourth book, Meant for More: Waking Up to the Life You Were Sent to Live. He currently serves as the stake president in the Friendswood Texas Stake and has served as a seminary teacher, branch president, stake presidency counselor, and counselor in the Texas Houston South Mission. He lives in Houston with his wife and four children and loves bacon and Dallas sports teams. Links Meant for More: Waking Up to the Life You Were Sent to Live When Leaders Accidentally Limit Their Effectiveness | An Interview with Dustin Peterson Clarifying Purpose to Guide Your Calling, Work, & Family Life | An Interview with Dustin Peterson Leading with Your God-Given Talents | An Interview with Dustin Peterson Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights The conversation centers on the importance of purpose in leadership and personal development. Key Insights Purpose as Motivation: Purpose serves as a powerful source of motivation, helping individuals overcome challenges and find fulfillment in their roles, whether formal or informal. Crucibles of Experience: Personal trials and challenges often reveal one’s purpose. Reflecting on difficult experiences can lead to insights about how to serve others and make a positive impact. The Importance of “Why”: Understanding the deeper reasons behind actions and assignments is crucial for effective leadership. Leaders should help others grasp the “why” behind their responsibilities to foster engagement and commitment. Simplicity in Purpose Statements: Effective purpose statements should be short, bold, and idealistic, guiding individuals toward meaningful goals without being overly complex. Individual Purpose: Each person has a unique purpose that can be discovered through reflection on past experiences and aspirations for the future. Leadership Applications Fostering a Purpose-Driven Culture: Latter-day Saint leaders can create an environment where members feel empowered to explore their individual purposes, encouraging them to share their experiences and insights. Utilizing Reflection Exercises: Leaders can implement activities like journey mapping to help individuals identify their highs and lows, facilitating discussions that uncover personal purposes and motivations. Encouraging Open Dialogue: By prioritizing conversations about purpose and the “why” behind church activities, leaders can enhance engagement and inspire members to take meaningful action in their callings. 00:04:14 – Overview of Meant for More Book 00:05:08 – The Importance of Purpose in Leadership 00:10:07 – Purpose vs. Motivation in Leadership 00:12:13 – Understanding the Why Behind Ministering 00:15:14 – The Role of Purpose in Church Leadership 00:18:23 – Finding Personal Purpose Beyond Formal Roles 00:20:09 – The Three Components of Purpose 00:25:05 – The Impact of Crucibles on Purpose 00:30:07 – Creating a Purpose Statement for a Stake 00:34:51 – The Importance of a Rallying Point in Leadership 00:38:07 – Finding Purpose Outside of Formal Leadership 00:40:39 – Activity: Creating a Journey Map for Purpose 00:42:24 – Conclusion and Reflection on Growth Through Crucibles The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Steven W. Shields, CMHC, CETII, CECII, is passionate about helping others regain their freedom by healing their root trauma. One of his greatest moments with clients is when he fires them. His hope is to help clients access that inner healing as quickly as possible so they can stop spending time and money in therapy, live the adventure, and experience the joys that life has in store for them. Steven loves dirt biking, Christian rap, and playing Pokémon with his kids. Links Is Mental Health Healing Possible? | An Interview with Steven Shields [ACCEPTED] Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights Steve discusses the importance of community and authenticity within Latter-day Saint congregations, and how to foster genuine connections and address the challenges of secrecy and shame in church settings. Key Insights Community vs. Secrecy: Steven emphasizes the distinction between confidentiality and secrecy. While confidentiality involves honoring individuals’ stories, secrecy can hinder authentic connections and healing. Authenticity in Leadership: Leaders are encouraged to model authenticity by sharing their own experiences and struggles, which can create a safe space for others to do the same. The Role of Therapy: Therapy serves as an artificial container for healing, providing tools and support that individuals may not find within their community. However, true healing often occurs through genuine relationships and community support. Cultural Challenges: Many members feel isolated or disconnected in their wards, often due to fear of judgment. Steven argues that this leads to a culture of silence, where individuals keep secrets rather than seeking connection. Building Connections: Leaders should actively work to create environments where members feel safe to share their struggles, thus fostering a sense of belonging and support. Leadership Applications Encourage Vulnerability: Leaders can promote a culture of openness by sharing their own challenges and inviting members to do the same, which can help break down barriers of shame and secrecy. Facilitate Small Groups: Organizing smaller gatherings or discussion groups can help members connect on a deeper level, allowing for more meaningful conversations and support. Model Authenticity: By being transparent about their own journeys, leaders can inspire others to engage authentically, ultimately strengthening the ward community and enhancing overall unity. 00:03:43 – The Importance of Community 00:04:16 – Current Trends in Therapy 00:05:40 – Managing vs. Healing 00:08:10 – The Role of Worthiness 00:09:50 – The Journey of Repentance 00:11:32 – Addressing Pornography in Leadership 00:12:25 – Confidentiality vs. Secrecy 00:14:05 – The Nature of Confidentiality 00:15:10 – The Need for Vulnerability 00:18:25 – Creating Safe Spaces in Church 00:19:28 – The Power of Authenticity 00:21:11 – Building Connections in the Ward 00:23:29 – The Role of Community in Recovery 00:25:17 – The Importance of Sharing Stories 00:27:39 – Overcoming Fear and Shame 00:29:10 – The Cost of Speaking Up 00:30:57 – The Role of Therapy in Healing 00:32:19 – Building Community in the Church 00:34:06 – The Future of Healing and Community 00:35:17 – The Role of Therapy as an Artificial Container 00:37:14 – The Need for Organic Healing 00:40:10 – Therapy and Community The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

The dishwasher fight you've had a thousand times? Or is it about the laundry, where you're going to eat, making the bed, and cleaning the kitchen? The truth is, it's never really been about the dishwasher (or laundry, eating, making the bed, etc). Couples therapist Tony Overbay walks through Jack and Jill, a 25-year marriage stuck in a low-grade war over how to load the dishes, and reveals what those endless arguments are actually carrying: a need to be seen, an effort that's gone unregistered, and two adaptive children from two completely different childhood homes still running the show. If you've ever been mid-fight and thought, "How are we doing this again?"—this episode finally names the pattern. In this episode you'll: Recognize the Trojan horse argument—how a fight about tongs, rinse agents, and which rack secretly carries the vulnerable conversation you haven't been able to say out loud Spot the four signs you're stuck in one: repetition without resolution, the running tab of unacknowledged effort, kitchen sinking (John Gottman's term), and the hollow win that doesn't feel like a win See how your adaptive child (Terry Real) brought the rules of your childhood home into your marriage—and why your nervous system can't tell the difference between a predator and your spouse walking in with "that look" Leave the waiting room—where both partners want connection but each waits for the other to move first—through differentiation (David Schnarch), not conditional effort Try three guided exercises—open the horse, flip the ledger, and one unilateral move—designed for one person, no partner participation required Drawing on nearly 20 years of couples therapy, his training in Emotionally Focused Therapy, and his four pillars of a connected conversation, Tony reframes the most exhausting argument in your marriage as a map—not a verdict. You're not broken. You're human. And the argument you keep having is pointing somewhere useful. The Magnetic Marriage course is getting a complete overhaul that builds in everything covered here. Get on the waitlist at tonyoverbay.com/magnetic. Please follow Tony on Instagram @virtual.couch on Tiktok @virtualcouch on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/tonyoverbaylmft and on Substack https://thevirtualcouch.substack.com/ You can reach out to Tony through his website tonyoverbay.com or by emailing contact @ tonyoverbay.com 00:00 Welcome and Setup 01:03 Dishwasher War Story 01:57 How Dishes Become Proxy 04:17 Inside the Dishwasher Debate 07:45 Jack Stops Helping 10:08 Childhood Dish Rules 13:38 Seen and Validated 15:16 Trojan Horse Concept 18:53 Four Trojan Horse Signs 23:26 Not a Relationship Crisis 25:05 Why Vulnerability Feels Dangerous 26:17 Adaptive Child Patterns 30:52 Nervous System Triggers 32:18 Amygdala Hijack Mode 33:44 Learning New Skills 34:55 The Waiting Room Trap 39:46 Conditional Effort Stalemate 42:05 Trojan Horse Reframe 44:27 Differentiation Explained 47:29 Meaning We Assign 51:37 Impermanence and Hope 53:54 Reaching Without Scorekeeping 56:58 Dishwasher Reimagined 01:00:36 Tuesday Night Practice 01:02:44 Closing Encouragement

As a culture change enthusiast with hundreds of presentations under her belt, Dr. Christy Kane transforms audiences when she speaks. Her message is based on the belief that embracing mental health as a positive is essential to thriving.   All of Dr. Kane’s work has one goal: to help people care for their brains and live better lives. By incorporating brain-based research, storytelling, and a thought-provoking delivery, she makes difficult topics engaging and memorable.​   Dr. Kane has a Doctorate in Psychology and a clinical license (CMHC) in addition to being a successful business owner and leader. Dr. Kane has provided mental health corporate consulting, corporate training, and professional development training for school districts in multiple states.  Links KaneCounselingServices.com Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights Dr. Kane discusses the complexities of mental health within the context of church leadership. The conversation focuses on how leaders can better understand mental health dynamics, set appropriate boundaries, and support members effectively. Key Insights Understanding Mental Health Trends: Dr. Kane highlights the rise of “gray divorce,” where older couples are increasingly seeking divorce after decades of marriage, often due to lack of growth and connection in their relationships. Boundaries in Leadership: Leaders must establish clear boundaries to protect their mental health and avoid overstepping into roles that require professional training, such as therapy. This includes recognizing when to refer members to mental health professionals. Curiosity Over Judgment: Leaders should approach conversations with curiosity rather than jumping to conclusions. Asking open-ended questions can help members feel safe and understood, allowing for more effective support. Recognizing Mental Health Issues: Leaders need to differentiate between spiritual struggles and mental health issues. Persistent feelings of disconnection from the spirit may indicate underlying mental health concerns that require professional intervention. Communication with Professionals: When referring members to therapists, leaders should ensure that proper releases of information are signed, allowing for effective communication between the therapist and the church leader. Leadership Applications Establishing Clear Expectations: Leaders can set the tone for their interactions by clarifying that they are not therapists and that they will refer members to professionals when necessary. This helps manage expectations and reduces the risk of burnout. Promoting Open Dialogue: By fostering an environment of curiosity and openness, leaders can encourage members to share their struggles without fear of judgment, leading to more meaningful support and connection. Utilizing Resources Wisely: Leaders should leverage available resources, such as mental health professionals, to assist members effectively while maintaining their own well-being. This includes participating in training sessions to better understand mental health dynamics and how to address them. 00:02:00 – Mental Health Trends: Gray Divorce 00:04:00 – Dynamics of Empty Nesters and Relationships 00:05:30 – Vision for Mental Health Content Creation 00:06:00 – Importance of Understanding Mental Health for Leaders 00:08:00 – Navigating Shame, Guilt, and Godly Sorrow 00:10:00 – Boundaries in Leadership Roles 00:12:00 – Comparing Bishop and Therapist Roles 00:14:00 – Recognizing Depression vs. Spiritual Issues 00:16:00 – Setting Boundaries in Conversations 00:18:00 – Importance of Curiosity in Leadership 00:20:00 – Referring to Professional Therapists 00:22:00 – Communicating with Therapists: Best Practices 00:24:00 – Managing High-Risk Conversations 00:26:00 – Maintaining Trust in Confidentiality 00:28:00 – Addressing Secrets in Relationships 00:30:00 – Importance of Self-Care for Leaders 00:32:00 – Strengthening Family and Ward Culture 00:34:00 – Addressing Feelings of Loneliness Among Women 00:36:00 – Upcoming Topics for Mental Health Discussions The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

You're not surviving an earthquake in your narcissistic relationship. You're surviving termites—slow, structural damage no one else can see...until it's too late! In this 11th installment of Death by 1,000 Cuts, Tony Overbay, LMFT, shares his own cut for the first time in the series: the weekly phone call with his mom that was never going to land as "enough," no matter how he showed up. From there, he walks through four clusters of cuts pulled directly from listeners—the illusion of choice, two versions of reality, being set up to fail, and the punishment that arrives wrapped as a "we problem." If you've ever tried to describe what life inside an emotionally immature or narcissistic relationship actually feels like and watched the people around you look confused, this episode puts language around what your body has been telling you all along. Episode highlights: Recognize the "attack surface"—why your opinion gets requested, then quietly dismantled (paint colors, restaurants, Christmas gifts) Decode the two-faces pattern, projection, and how reality gets edited in real time Spot the setup-to-fail trap: squeegees, mowing, dishwashers, and "help" that's actually a rigged test Understand co-regulation and why a relationship destabilizes the moment you start getting healthier Hear what continues after separation—and why "diagnostic warfare" lands as a dull thud once you become more grounded Tony Overbay is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, betrayal-trauma certified, and the founder of the Magnetic Marriage course and the Men's Emotional Architects group—work built on helping people name what they couldn't quite name before. If something in this episode pulled up a cut of your own, write it down. And if you're willing to share it for a future episode, send it to contact@tonyoverbay.com. You're not crazy. You're recognizing termites. 00:00 Welcome and Updates 01:25 Termites House Metaphor 05:04 Why It's Hard to Explain 06:41 Co-Regulation and Equilibrium 08:45 Tony's Phone Call Cut 13:19 Why These Episodes Validate 15:04 Cluster One Illusion of Choice 19:20 Cluster Two-Two Realities 23:08 Masks in Public 24:33 Faith and Validation 26:44 Reality Gets Edited 27:30 Everything Is a We Problem 29:16 Set Up to Fail 33:35 Punishment and Withdrawal 38:00 After Separation 39:29 Parallel Parenting Masks 40:35 Diagnostic Warfare 42:11 Grounded Healing Tools 44:31 Write It Down 47:18 Closing Thanks Please follow Tony on Instagram @virtual.couch on Tiktok @virtualcouch on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/tonyoverbaylmft and on Substack https://thevirtualcouch.substack.com/ You can reach out to Tony through his website tonyoverbay.com or by emailing contact @ tonyoverbay.com

Jeff Strong worked nearly 30 years in the consumer products industry as a senior executive at Procter & Gamble and global president and chief customer officer at Johnson & Johnson. He then taught in the Marriott School of Business at Brigham Young University and worked as an advisor to the Church before serving as a mission leader in the Arkansas Bentonville Mission. Jeff has since spent several years doing research on why people are leaving the Church. He recently published the book Torn: Why People We Love Are Leaving the Church and What We Can Learn from Them. Jeff lives in Midway, Utah, and stays busy with a little lavender farm, some business consulting, and enjoying family. Links Torn: Why People We Love Are Leaving the Church and What We Can Learn from Them What to Say When Loved Ones Leave the Church | An Interview with Jeff Strong and Joseph Grenny The Data Behind Church Culture | An Interview with Jeff Strong TornByJeffStrong.com Instagram: @tornbyjeffstrong Facebook Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights 00:02:42 – Competing Narratives in Church Growth and Disaffiliation 00:04:22 – Personal Connection to Disaffiliation 00:06:36 – The Journey to Understanding Disaffiliation 00:09:05 – The Role of Data and Personal Experience 00:10:54 – The Complexity of Disaffiliation 00:12:11 – The Challenge of Measuring Disaffiliation 00:15:09 – Research Methodology and Findings 00:17:29 – Understanding the Audience for “Torn” 00:19:30 – The Importance of Accurate Understanding 00:20:36 – Celebrating Strengths While Facing Challenges 00:22:03 – The Impact of Local vs. Global Growth 00:25:41 – The Role of Missionary Work 00:27:06 – The Need for a Balanced Perspective 00:29:26 – The Misconception of Resurgence Among Young People 00:31:03 – The Data on Disaffiliation 00:35:02 – The Four Waves of Disaffiliation 00:40:53 – Wave One: Lifestyle and Depletion 00:43:17 – Personal Anecdote on Depletion and Church Experience 00:44:19 – Wave Two: Doubt and Disbelief 00:46:05 – Wave Three: Cultural and Social Factors 00:48:12 – Wave Four: Institutional Issues 00:50:00 – The Importance of Understanding and Addressing Disaffiliation Key Insights Competing Narratives: The church is experiencing growth in certain areas, such as baptisms and missionary work, but disaffiliation remains a significant concern, with many individuals quietly stepping away from their faith. Personal Connection: Jeff shares his personal journey of grappling with his son’s disaffiliation, highlighting the emotional impact and the need for a deeper understanding of why individuals leave the church. Research Findings: Jeff’s research indicates that approximately 40% of active members have disaffiliated since 2000, with various reasons categorized into “waves,” including lifestyle challenges and deeper faith crises. Cultural Dynamics: The discussion emphasizes the importance of recognizing the cultural pressures within the church that may lead to feelings of depletion rather than spiritual fulfillment for some members. Engagement vs. Disaffiliation: While many active members report strong engagement and purpose, a significant portion of young adults are less affiliated with organized religion, indicating a complex relationship with faith. Leadership Applications Fostering Understanding: Leaders can benefit from understanding the reasons behind disaffiliation to create a more inclusive and supportive environment for those struggling with their faith. Encouraging Open Dialogue: By promoting open conversations about faith challenges, leaders can help bridge the gap between those who feel fulfilled in their faith and those who are struggling. Addressing Cultural Pressures: Leaders should be aware of the cultural dynamics that may lead to feelings of depletion among members and work to create a more nurturing and understanding community that supports individual spiritual journeys. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Robin Ritch has spent her career building things that matter. She has led teams at Microsoft, Intel, and Cisco, and most recently served as President and Publisher of Deseret News Publishing Company, where she helped transform a 172-year-old institution into a nationally recognized digital voice. Throughout her career, Robin has had a knack for seeing around corners. She has launched new products, modernized organizations, and brought together unlikely communities around conversations that matter. She gives back through board service at The Policy Project, WikiCharities, Social Venture Partners, and Mission Edge, organizations working to make communities stronger. For as long as she can remember, Robin has been fascinated by women and their relationship with God. That lifelong curiosity is what led her to write “Using Friction to Grow”, her first book. Robin examines case studies of Latter-day Saint women who navigated significant social and ecclesiastical changes during the 1970s. She discusses how these women managed friction from society, family, and the Church to develop deeper discipleship and personal sanctification. Links Using Friction to Grow: Stories of Strength and Resilience, LDS Women 1968-1976 Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights Key Insights The Purpose of Friction: Friction is a divine design intended to slow individuals down, allowing them to refine their relationship with God and smooth away “rough edges” of character. Personal vs. Organizational Revelation: Individuals may receive personal revelation for their own lives that precedes broader organizational shifts within the Church. Historical Resilience: Women in the 1970s drew strength from the stories of their suffragette grandmothers, recognizing that navigating tension within a faith community is not a new phenomenon. Individual Agency and Revelation: The women Robin interviewed did not view Church counsel as a reason to stop their personal progression; instead, they used it as a prompt to seek their own confirmed answers through prayer and fasting. Grace for Diverse Paths: These women practiced deep empathy, recognizing that God provides unique answers for different individuals and that one person’s path does not dictate the “correct” path for everyone else. Leadership Applications Validating the Struggle: Leaders can help members understand that feeling “friction” with a policy or teaching is not a sign of unworthiness but an opportunity for a sanctifying “wrestle” with God. Managing Implementation: Recognizing the gap between revelation and organizational implementation helps leaders be more patient with institutional changes and more supportive of members who see needs before the organization adapts. 00:02:00 – Robin’s Book: Using Friction to Grow 00:03:00 – The Importance of Women’s Stories 00:04:00 – The 1970s: A Time of Friction for Women 00:06:00 – The Equal Rights Amendment and Church Response 00:07:00 – Personal Stories of Friction and Faith 00:09:00 – Navigating Friction in Faith Communities 00:10:00 – The Role of Personal Revelation 00:12:00 – The Nature of Friction in Growth 00:13:00 – Engaging with Friction for Personal Growth 00:15:00 – The Evolution of Church Practices 00:17:00 – The Importance of Change and Growth 00:18:00 – Balancing Hope and Disappointment in Faith 00:20:00 – The Role of Friction in Personal Development 00:21:00 – Story of a Woman’s Experience with Church Leadership 00:24:00 – Finding Strength in Christ Amidst Friction 00:25:00 – The Impact of Personal Stories 00:27:00 – The Need for Women’s Voices in the Church 00:29:00 – Encouragement for Women in Parenting 00:30:00 – Broadening Engagement Beyond Parenting 00:32:00 – The Importance of Sharing Light 00:33:00 – The Role of Leaders in Navigating Friction 00:37:00 – Understanding Different Perspectives 00:40:00 – The Influence of Social Media on Women’s Stories 00:41:00 – The Responsibility of the Hearer in Storytelling The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

In 2019, I found myself balancing the demands of being a mom to four kids while taking my podcast and business more seriously. I hired help to manage my time, launched new rounds of my progress program, and explored collaborations with guest teachers. Looking back, I am proud of the strides made toward expanding the diversity of guests and topics on About Progress. As we head into the 10th anniversary of the podcast, these lessons from 2019 continue to shape our path forward, bridging gaps and creating a richer space for personal development rooted in authenticity and varied experiences. Old episodes to support: Interview with Gabrielle Blair, Vanessa Quigley, Saundra Dalton-Smith, Tony Overbay, and Natalie Norton Get 50% off More for Moms All-Access Pass with code LISTENER at checkout.  ⁠Preorder Sticky Habits ⁠book today! Join the ⁠Book Launch Committee⁠ for behind-the-scenes and first peeks at all things book. Join the ⁠Supporters Club⁠ to keep About Progress around for good.  ⁠Get the free DSL Training⁠. Get your AirDoctorPro air purifier with the discount code “MONICA.” Transform your space now.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You lie to your dentist. You lie in therapy. And here's the uncomfortable truth — the patterns you think you're hiding are hiding nothing. Tony Overbay, LMFT, sits down with friend and dentist Dr. Mark Redford to unpack one of the most fascinating overlaps between dentistry and human psychology: impression management — and why you simply cannot cram for the test of life. From the dental chair to the therapy couch, the habits you actually practice tell a story no amount of performance can cover up. If you've ever "prepared" for a dentist appointment by flossing for three days straight, this episode is your mirror. In this episode, you'll explore: Why your dentist can spot that you don't floss before you even open your mouth — and what that reveals about the limits of impression management in every area of your life The concept of "cramming for the test of life" and why emotional growth, empathy, and trust can't be memorized the night before How co-regulation works in the dental chair (and in your closest relationships) — and why calm presence is more powerful than joining someone in their chaos The "post-cleaning motivation shelf life" — why that I'm a new person feeling lasts about two weeks, whether you're leaving the dentist or your first therapy session The difference between unconscious incompetence and conscious incompetence — and why knowing you're avoiding something is actually meaningful progress The hidden burnout drivers in helping professions, why pathological kindness can work against you, and what it looks like when patients (or clients) need someone to blame Tony Overbay is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist with over 20 years of experience helping individuals and couples move from stuck and confused to grounded and growing. If Dr. Redford's calm, co-regulating presence sounds like exactly what your nervous system needs in a dentist, you can reach him at info@redfordsmiles.com, follow him on Instagram @redfordsmiles, or visit redfordsmiles.com. And while you're at it — his wife Amy offers cooking classes for all ages, from cookie decorating to high-end culinary experiences. Find her on Instagram @onecutecookiekitchen or at onecutecookie.net. Whether you're finally ready to be honest with your dentist — or with yourself — tonyoverbay.com is a great place to start. If you're a man who wants to build real emotional strength (not just talk about it), the Men's Emotional Architects group is open. Reach out at contact@tonyoverbay.com to learn more. The updated Magnetic Marriage course is also coming soon — get on the waitlist at tonyoverbay.com/magnetic. Please follow Tony on Instagram @virtual.couch on TikTok @virtualcouch on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/tonyoverbaylmft and on Substack https://thevirtualcouch.substack.com/ You can reach out to Tony through his website tonyoverbay.com or by emailing contact @ tonyoverbay.com

"He wasn't evil." Those three words from actor Christoph Waltz, from an interview on how he prepared himself to play one of the most brutal, cruel characters to grace a movie screen, explain exactly why the narcissist in your life can hurt you and then look at you with genuine confusion when you share with them how what they've done, or said, has hurt you. What if they know what they are doing, but they believe they are justified, that they are "right." In this landmark episode, Tony Overbay, LMFT, makes a deeply personal revelation: many of the "listener stories" shared on this podcast were actually drawn from his own lived experience with his emotionally immature mother, who passed away in 2025. Through his own journey of differentiation—and a powerful insight from Simon Sinek about why nobody believes they're the villain—Tony reframes the question that keeps every pathologically kind person stuck: "Do they know what they're doing?" In this episode, you'll discover: Why "he wasn't evil" changes everything — the Christoph Waltz principle that explains how narcissistic people cause harm without ever believing they've done anything wrong. The critical difference between "right" and "good" — and why the emotionally immature person's unshakable certainty is more dangerous than deliberate cruelty. How pathological kindness becomes the trap — why your empathy keeps you decoding their intent instead of asking, "Is this acceptable to me?" Tony's personal journey through Schnarch's four points of balance — what it actually looked like to stop needing external validation from the person least likely to give it. The reframe that sets you free — moving from "Are they doing it on purpose?" to "Does the impact on me change either way?" Drawing from over 20 years of clinical work, his own differentiation journey, and the real experiences behind this podcast, Tony delivers one of his most honest and transformative episodes yet. If you've ever wondered whether your partner truly sees what they're doing, this one will meet you exactly where you are. Reach out at tonyoverbay.com or join the private women's Facebook group and the new Men's Emotional Architects group to connect with people who finally get what you've been going through. Please follow Tony on Instagram @virtual.couch, on TikTok @virtualcouch, and on Facebook. https://www.facebook.com/tonyoverbaylmft and on Substack https://thevirtualcouch.substack.com/ You can reach out to Tony through his website tonyoverbay.com or by emailing contact @ tonyoverbay.com 00:00 Big Reveal Setup 01:02 Mother's Day Story 02:49 It Was Me 03:45 Why I Stayed Quiet 07:58 Five Rules Primer 09:10 Popcorn Moments 11:35 Do They Know 14:07 Waltz And Sinek 17:18 Good Versus Right 18:14 Faith And Certainty 24:19 Pathologically Kind 25:37 Maris And Ansel 28:30 Inside The Immature Mind 30:10 Therapy Pattern Recognition 31:53 Intentionality Toggle 32:40 Beyond Good or Evil 33:50 Confabulation Defense Mode 35:26 Vulnerability Feels Like an Attack 36:39 Compassion Trap for Kind People 37:59 Healthy Repair Looks Like 38:54 Why Aha Moments Rarely Stick 40:43 Differentiation With My Mom 48:37 Hospice Doctor Mix Up 54:48 Stop Waiting Choose You 55:41 Articulate Gaslighting Explained 57:04 Let Go of Intentionality 59:12 Closing Support and Community Tony Overbay is a licensed marriage and family therapist, betrayal trauma certified, and host of The Virtual Couch, Waking Up to Narcissism, and Love, ADHD podcasts. If the idea of change through agency—not shame—resonates with you, explore Tony's Magnetic Marriage course at tonyoverbay.com/magnetic Please follow Tony on Instagram @virtual.couch, on TikTok @virtualcouch, on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/tonyoverbaylmft, and on Substack https://thevirtualcouch.substack.com/. You can reach out to Tony through his website tonyoverbay.com or by emailing contact @ tonyoverbay.com Contact Tony at contact@tonyoverbay.com to learn more about his Emotional Architects men's group.

Joshua Shea is a former pornography addict-turned-expert on a mission to get the world talking about pornography addiction, betrayal trauma, and the importance of truth and communication in relationships. Shea is a certified coach in the areas of pornography addiction, betrayal trauma and is a therapeutic disclosure specialist. He has worked with over 500 individuals and couples since becoming a full-time coach in 2020. Shea has appeared on over 500 TV shows, radio broadcasts and podcasts since 2018. In 2020 he gave a popular TED Talk, and has written four books on the subject, available through Amazon and other outlets.Prior to admitting his 24-year addiction, Joshua was a prominent magazine publisher, award-winning journalist, film festival founder and politician in central Maine.Early on, he recognized recovery was far more than just quitting the negative behavior of his addiction. It was about answering the questions: "Why did I become an addict, How did that make me the person I am today, What must I do to become the person I was truly born to be?"In 2017, Joshua launched ThatCornCoach.com. He has also appeared on several conference panels and has contributed articles about recovery to TheFix.com and Recovery Today magazine.His most recent book, I'm Reading This Book About Porn Addiction For a Friend, introduces readers who are struggling in early recovery, or looking for more information about a suspected addiction. It includes symptoms, stories of addicts Shea has worked with, and a series of activities to personalize the process.His third book, Porn and the Pandemic: How Three Months in 2020 Changed Everything was released in July 2020. It looks at how the world of online pornography changed overnight during the COVID-19 Coronavirus outbreak with analysis and interviews from current and former pornography addicts, "cam models" who use sites like Chaturbate and OnlyFans, and a bevy of mental health and addiction professionals. Online pornography exploded during the pandemic right under most people's noses.He is also the author of The Addiction Nobody Will Talk About: How I Let My Pornography Addiction Hurt People and Destroy Relationships (2018), a memoir about his descent during the final days of his addiction, and He's a Porn Addict…Now What? (2019) written for female partners of male porn addicts who are grappling with the revelation that their loved one is an addict. It was co-written with Tony Overbay, LMFT.Websitehttp://www.ThatCornCoach.comSocial Media:https://www.tiktok.com/@that.corncoachYouTube URLhttps://www.youtube.com/@thatcorncoach

David Boice is a faith-based storyteller and traveler originally from Wausau, Wisconsin, and the creator of the YouTube series 52 Churches in 52 Weeks. What began as a personal search for a spiritual home became a nationwide journey through nearly 200 congregations, documenting not just what churches teach, but how they receive those walking in for the first time. His work offers a unique window into the lived experience of faith, community, and belonging across modern Christianity. Through these road stories, David has developed a thoughtful perspective on the subtle dynamics that shape religious communities—hospitality, fellowship, teaching, and the process by which a stranger becomes an insider. His content blends spiritual curiosity with candid reflection, inviting viewers to engage faith in a more personal and experiential way. In April 2024, David was baptized into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He recently relocated to Utah and is now developing 52 Temples in 52 Weeks, a companion project exploring temple worship, symbolism, and covenant faith. Alongside his content, he has used his platform to support causes such as St. Jude Children's Research Hospital. When he's not traveling or filming, David can usually be found writing, editing, or wrestling with deeper questions—like whether dad jokes qualify as a spiritual gift. Links YouTube @52churchesin52weeks YouTube @52temples Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights David discusses his unique journey of visiting various denominations before joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The conversation focuses on the impact of church culture, the power of a welcoming environment, and the lessons Latter-day Saint leaders can learn from the strengths and weaknesses of other faith traditions. 00:03:38 – David’s Background and Spiritual Journey 00:05:51 – Fallout with the Lutheran Church 00:07:45 – The Idea of Visiting 52 Churches 00:10:05 – Documenting the Church Visits 00:12:17 – The Need for Community and Church 00:13:41 – First Visit to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 00:18:25 – Insights on Church Culture and Leadership 00:21:02 – The Importance of Welcoming Visitors 00:22:04 – Generational Disconnect in Churches 00:25:24 – The Role of Missionaries in Church Culture 00:26:16 – Cleaning Assignments and Ownership 00:30:16 – Communion Practices Across Different Churches 00:32:23 – The Significance of Communion in Worship 00:36:19 – Differences in Communion Timing and Structure 00:40:03 – The Role of Communion in Community and Faith 00:45:09 – Unique Takeaways from Church Visits and Experiences Key Insights Welcoming Environment: David emphasizes the importance of a communal atmosphere in churches. He found that Latter-day Saint congregations were notably more welcoming, with members actively engaging with visitors, which contrasted sharply with his experiences in other churches. Communion Practices: The sacrament in Latter-day Saint services is conducted early in the meeting, which David found refreshing compared to other traditions where communion is often the main event. This practice fosters a sense of community and shared purpose. Involvement and Ownership: David appreciated the opportunities for active participation in the Latter-day Saint community, such as cleaning assignments, which gave him a sense of ownership and responsibility within the ward. Generational Engagement: He noted the generational dynamics in church attendance, observing that many mainline Protestant churches struggle to engage younger generations, while Latter-day Saint congregations maintain a strong sense of family and community. Cultural Differences: David highlighted the differences in how various churches approach worship, including the use of sensory elements in Catholic services versus the more straightforward approach in many Protestant services. Leadership Applications Foster a Welcoming Culture: Latter-day Saint leaders can prioritize creating a welcoming environment by encouraging members to actively greet and engage with newcomers, ensuring that visitors feel valued and included. Encourage Participation: Leaders should provide opportunities for members to take on responsibilities within the ward, fostering a sense of ownership and community involvement that can enhance engagement and commitment. Focus on Community Building: By emphasizing the importance of family and community in church activities, leaders can help bridge generational gaps and create a more inclusive atmosphere that resonates with all members. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Jump into Zion Lab: https://app.leadingsaints.org In this episode we back up to early March for the first “Leading Saints Live” livestream where Kurt Francom explains more about Zion Lab and shares highlights from discussions. We discuss: Zion Lab as a Resource Generational Disconnect: The gap between older and younger generations, the pressure to conform to expectations, and the facade of compliance rather than genuine engagement Bishopric Responsibilities: Shifting responsibilities of bishops and balancing their focus on youth while ensuring all members receive adequate support and ministering Communication Strategies: Ask open-ended questions and foster a non-judgmental environment to promote dialogue and understanding Boundary Changes and Transparency: Is there a need for transparency regarding boundary changes? Can communication reduce anxiety and foster acceptance? The Power of Naming: Inclusion and Belonging for LGBTQ+ Families in Church Discussions How to become a Zion Builder (and how to get a sponsored membership if cost is a barrier) ► Links & Resources:

Jeff Strong worked nearly 30 years in the consumer products industry as a senior executive at Procter & Gamble and global president and chief customer officer at Johnson & Johnson. He then taught in the Marriott School of Business at Brigham Young University and worked as an advisor to the Church before serving as a mission leader in the Arkansas Bentonville Mission. Jeff has since spent several years doing research on why people are leaving the Church. While not a professional researcher, his career involved a large amount of research and the research he shares in this podcast was done with the help of some of the top Latter-day Saint researchers in the world. Today, Jeff lives in Midway, Utah, and stays busy with a little lavender farm, some business consulting, and enjoying family. Joseph Grenny is a lifelong student of social science whose writings are references in major universities around the world. He is a New York Times bestselling author of eight books, including leadership, influence and communication classics Crucial Conversations, Influencer, Crucial Accountability, and Change Anything. His books are available in over 30 languages and have sold over six million copies. Joseph is a co-founder and current board chair of Unitus Labs, an international nonprofit that has helped over 15 million of the world's poorest to move toward self reliance. In 2015 he and his colleagues started The Other Side Academy, a 2.5-year school for those with long histories of crime, addiction and homelessness. The Other Side Academy is free, requiring only a desire to change for admission. In April 2021, Joseph and the leaders of The Other Side Academy announced their intention to build The Other Side Village, a 400-home community for those who are chronically homeless based on principles of self-reliance and peer accountability. Joseph is married to the former Celia Marie Waldron. They have six children and eight grandchildren and live in Salt Lake City. Links Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community The Data Behind Church Culture | An Interview with Jeff Strong Joining Moroni's War on Addiction | An Interview with Joseph Grenny Creating Change | Interview with Joseph Grenny Messy Conversations: When Loved Ones Leave the Faith, by Joseph Grenny Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights Social science expert Joseph Grenny and researcher Jeff Strong discuss the high-stakes nature of “faith transitions” within the Church . The conversation centers on how leaders and family members can navigate these emotionally charged discussions to preserve and strengthen relationships. 00:04:45 – The Importance of High-Stakes Conversations 00:06:17 – The Challenge of Faith Transitions 00:08:31 – The Need for Open Dialogue 00:09:50 – The Emotional Weight of Conversations 00:11:13 – The Impact of Poor Responses 00:12:21 – Preparing for Difficult Conversations 00:13:35 – Research Insights on Conversations 00:15:48 – Identifying Positive Deviants 00:16:29 – Learning from Successful Conversations 00:18:06 – The Role of Fear in Conversations 00:20:06 – Talking Under the Influence of Stress 00:22:40 – The Importance of Taking a Breather 00:25:23 – Three Key Steps for Effective Conversations 00:27:00 – Feeling Your Feelings 00:29:40 – Fixing Your Story 00:31:40 – Finding Your Motive 00:33:13 – The Transformative Power of Relationships 00:35:11 – Embracing the Messiness of Life 00:38:11 – The Role of God in Our Growth 00:40:45 – The Journey of Self-Discovery Key Insights The “Devoutness Paradox”: Research involving 15,000 participants found that the more devout a person is, the less likely a conversation about faith transition is to go well. If the recipient is a church leader, the odds of a negative outcome are 4.5 times higher than average. High Intensity of Need: Approximately 83% of individuals going through a faith transition reach out to others, typically contacting four to five people, indicating a deep desire for connection and resolution during the process. The Trap of “Problem-Solving”: Many leaders and parents react out of fear and an immediate impulse to “fix” the individual or bring them back to the church. This motive often leads to the other person feeling judged, berated, or suspected. The “Positive Deviant” Model: Some leaders and family members manage to maintain their own religious commitment while creating a safe, robust space for dialogue. These “positive deviants” prioritize the relationship over immediate theological conformity. Long-Lasting Consequences: The first few seconds of a conversation are pivotal; words spoken in moments of shock or vulnerability can endure for years and dictate the future trajectory of the relationship. Leadership Applications Shifting Motives: Leaders must move from a mindset of “correcting” to one of “listening and processing”. Recognizing that fear often drives the impulse to solve a problem can help leaders stay present and supportive rather than confrontational. Validating the Struggle: Leaders should normalize the reality that faith transitions are common and often a healthy part of a person’s individual journey . By acknowledging the difficulty without judgment, they empower the individual to feel heard rather than controlled. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Zion Lab: https://app.leadingsaints.org/ Leading Saints Live | March Recap + The Future of Leading Saints Kurt Francom shares highlights from the past month in Zion Lab — Leading Saints’ growing online community app — and digs into the biggest topic on everyone’s mind: the upcoming changes to the Sunday meeting schedule taking effect September 6. In this episode: What is Zion Lab and why Kurt thinks it’s the future of Leading Saints The AI Clerk feature and how it helps church leaders find answers fast Reactions and discussion around the new split Sunday meeting schedule Kurt’s Elders Quorum small-group format and why it works so well for the shorter class time A bishop’s “Bishop’s Youth Discussion” model that’s transforming youth engagement How to become a Zion Builder (and how to get a sponsored membership if cost is a barrier) Links & Resources:

Why do the same conversations keep "resolving" without anything actually changing? Tony and his daughter Mackie unpack what they call "mouth sounds"—when someone says all the right words, uses the right tone, even touches your hand, and you walk away thinking this time it's different… but it never is.This episode dives deep into the anxious-avoidant attachment cycle and why your nervous system chose your partner long before your conscious mind caught up. Tony walks through the Anxious/Avoidant attachment loop while Mackie checks boxes in real time—and then shares the raw, hard-won lessons from her own recent breakup in her twenties that every person navigating heartbreak needs to hear.In this episode, you'll discover:Why "mouth sounds" feel so convincing—and how both partners are projecting completely different realities onto the same conversationThe anxious-avoidant origin story: how your childhood wired you to find the familiar disguised as the oppositeWhy consideration may be the highest form of love—and what it actually looks like in practiceMackie's breakup playbook: feel it instead of numbing it, no feeling is ever final, there's no correct timeline for healing, and being alone beats settlingThe hardest truth about leaving: sometimes choosing yourself means handing the other person the gift of getting to play the victim—and learning to be okay with thatTony Overbay, LMFT, draws from over 20 years of couples therapy and 1,500+ couples to explain the patterns most people can't see until it's almost too late. Whether you're stuck in a cycle, fresh out of a breakup, or watching someone you love go through it—this one's for you.Head to tonyoverbay.com/magnetic to join the wait list for the Magnetic Marriage course and start building the tools nobody handed you off the factory floor.00:00 When Talks Repeat01:11 Meet Tony and Mouth Sounds02:21 Projection Behind Promises03:34 Anxious Avoidant Framework05:02 Mackey Breakup Lessons06:04 Course Plug and Tools09:58 Mackey Joins the Show11:34 Dating After Breakup13:04 Why Words Hook Us15:05 Jack and Jill Origins21:10 How They Attract23:02 When Emotions Trigger Withdrawal24:09 Differentiation and Change30:05 Consideration as Love31:32 Four Pillars and Victim Mode33:15 Anxious Avoidant Patterns33:55 Feeling Considered Matters34:28 Inappropriate Outside Connection36:09 Boundaries Trust Walk Away37:36 Training What You Tolerate40:46 Rapid Fire Lessons Begin41:17 Feel It Dont Numb45:00 Trust After Betrayal48:54 No Feeling Is Final50:13 Impermanence Changes Everything53:00 No Timeline For Healing57:48 Leaving And Being Villain01:00:42 Wrap Up And Where To Find UsPlease follow Tony on Instagram @virtual.couch on Tiktok @virtualcouch on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/tonyoverbaylmft and on Substack https://thevirtualcouch.substack.com/ You can reach out to Tony through his website tonyoverbay.com or by emailing contact @ tonyoverbay.comContact Tony at contact@tonyoverbay.com to learn more about his Emotional Architects men's group.To learn more about Tony's upcoming re-release of the Magnetic Marriage course visit https://www.tonyoverbay.com/magnetic. Sign up for his newsletter through the link at https://linktr.ee/virtualcouchAvailable NOW: Tony's "Magnetic Marriage Mini-Course" is only $25. https://magneticmarriage.mykajabi.com/magnetic-marriage-mini-course

Tucker Boyle has spent over 25 years teaching Seminary and Institute for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, where he has worked closely with youth and young adults to help them deepen their relationship with Jesus Christ and navigate real-life challenges with faith and awareness. He has served as a Young Single Adult bishop and in other leadership callings, giving him a front-line perspective on the complexities individuals face in their spiritual journeys. Tucker is the founder of Harmony Road Retreats, a nonprofit organization that creates compassionate, supportive spaces for individuals wanting to find inner harmony while experiencing shifts in their faith. Through retreats, teaching, and his podcast Call to Harmony, he helps people develop practical tools for navigating spiritual dissonance, regulating the nervous system, and cultivating a more grounded, personal connection with God. He lives in Spanish Fork, Utah, with his wife Katie and their five children. Links https://www.harmonyroadretreats.com/ What I Learned About Leadership When My 2nd Counselor Left the Church ChurchofJesusChrist.org Topics and Questions Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights Tucker talks about navigating faith crises and transitions. The discussion explores the intellectual and physiological aspects of questioning faith, moving beyond “black and white” thinking to find spiritual peace through connection and the heart. 00:02:21 – Tucker’s Faith Crisis Journey 00:03:24 – Understanding Faith Crisis Beyond Doubt 00:04:05 – Importance of Community in Faith Transitions 00:04:32 – Tucker’s Experience in Teaching 00:05:43 – Observations on Youth and Young Adults 00:06:31 – Trusting the Goodness of the Younger Generation 00:07:11 – Defining Faith Crisis and Faith Journey 00:08:28 – Tucker’s Personal Faith Crisis Experience 00:09:01 – The Impact of Seeking Other Perspectives 00:10:37 – The Challenge of Balancing Beliefs 00:11:54 – The Role of the Dissertation Chair 00:12:38 – Navigating Fear and Doubt in Research 00:14:03 – The Dissolution of Testimony Pillars 00:15:17 – The Moment of Psychological Free Fall 00:16:21 – The Question of Wasting Time in Faith 00:17:03 – The Complexity of Belief and Doubt 00:18:03 – The Nature of Testimony Pillars 00:19:21 – The Challenge of Seeing Humanity in Divinity 00:20:58 – The Shift from Certainty to Complexity 00:22:46 – The Experience of Testimony in Church 00:23:40 – The Impact of Testimony on Personal Faith 00:24:53 – The Role of Nervous System in Faith Experiences 00:26:54 – The Importance of Self-Regulation 00:28:24 – The Journey of Healing and Understanding 00:30:31 – The Non-Linear Nature of Faith Journeys 00:31:13 – The Moment of Clarity and Love 00:33:08 – The Temporary Nature of Spiritual Experiences 00:34:24 – The Shift Back to Struggle 00:36:08 – Understanding the Faith Crisis Experience 00:37:41 – The Journey Towards Harmony 00:39:44 – The Role of Heart vs. Mind in Faith 00:41:06 – The Transformation Through Faith Crisis 00:43:22 – Embracing Complexity in Belief 00:45:01 – Gratitude for the Faith Crisis Experience 00:45:34 – Moving Forward with New Perspectives Key Insights The Nature of Faith Crisis: A faith crisis is often experienced as a physical response in the nervous system, where the world feels like it is falling apart, rather than just an intellectual disagreement. The Trap of Certainty: Boyle describes his own journey from a “black and white” mindset of having every answer to encountering complexity that dissolved his traditional “pillars” of testimony. Leading with the Heart: While the mind seeks to label, divide, and categorize, the heart can hold nuance, questions, and imperfections in church history or leadership that the analytical mind cannot. Spiritual Regulation: Finding peace often requires “stepping back” from a stressed mind through practices like meditation, allowing for an openness to God even when specific questions remain unanswered. Trusting in God's Reach: A central theme is the belief that individuals cannot “get out of God’s reach,” and that His love is not dependent on common organizational membership. Leadership Applications Creating Safe Spaces: Leaders can support those in transition by listening without an agenda to “fix” or judge them, ensuring the individual feels safe and “not othered” within the community. Managing Parental and Leader Panic: Tucker advises leaders to trust in the “deep goodness” of the youth and recognize that God’s plan is large enough to encompass their questions and journeys. Focusing on Connection Over Advice: Instead of providing a “five-point plan” or intellectual rebuttals, leaders should focus on maintaining a loving relationship, mirroring the “eternal bond” offered by God and Christ. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Ever lost an argument you know you should have won — but couldn't explain why? That's not a coincidence. It's a strategy called "The Pop." Tony Overbay, LMFT, introduces a powerful new framework for understanding one of the most disorienting dynamics in emotionally immature and narcissistic relationships: paltering — using technically true statements to build a completely false picture of reality. Through vivid storytelling, real listener examples, and the unforgettable journey of a popcorn kernel named Kevin, Tony names the mechanism that has left so many people feeling crazy when they were actually catching something real. In this episode, you'll discover: What "The Pop" is and why a single kernel of truth can expand into a narrative that fills the entire room — mostly air How paltering differs from outright lying, and why your brain's alarm system doesn't fire the way it normally would Real stories from The Kernel Collection — listener-submitted examples of half-truths weaponized in relationships Why you became a "court reporter" in your own relationship, and why that's an adaptation — not a flaw How implicit memory — your body's record of every conversation that left you smaller — is the one thing The Pop can't touch With over 1,500 couples counseled and hundreds of clients navigating narcissistic relationship dynamics, Tony delivers both the clinical framework and the emotional validation this topic demands. If you've ever told yourself, "I can't point to a specific lie — so maybe I'm the problem," this episode will change how you see every confusing conversation you've ever had. 00:00 Popcorn Obsession 01:36 Kernel Origin Story 02:46 Kevin Pops 05:48 Truth Becomes Weapon 09:33 Show Intro Concept 12:38 Paltering Half Truths 16:49 NXIVM Big Example 20:31 Long Term Erosion 21:38 Lauren Pattern Example 24:04 Listener Stories 25:56 Dinner Drinks Story 29:55 Flat Tire Example 30:22 Flat Tire Blame Shift 32:12 Confabulated Hero Narrative 33:38 Money Versus Love Trap 34:41 Doctor Appointment Reversal 36:26 Sorry But Apology 38:21 Why The Pop Works 40:24 Court Reporter Survival 43:16 Mindfulness And Runway 45:37 Boundaries Not Ultimatums 52:10 Trust Implicit Memory 53:50 Orienting Steps Forward 55:20 Differentiation And Crucible 01:01:44 Closing Takeaways Learn more at tonyoverbay.com and explore the Magnetic Marriage course for relationships where both people want to do the work. Please follow Tony on Instagram @virtual.couch on Tiktok @virtualcouch on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/tonyoverbaylmft and on Substack https://thevirtualcouch.substack.com/ You can reach out to Tony through his website tonyoverbay.com or by emailing contact @ tonyoverbay.com

A best-selling author and internationally sought-after speaker and consultant, Michael Timms teaches practical leadership strategies that drive high-performance. He earned an M.B.A. from Utah State University, and was a consultant with Deloitte and an HR leader in the construction and manufacturing industries, prior to forming his own consultancy. Michael is the author of How Leaders Can Inspire Accountability and Succession Planning That Works. Links Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community How Leaders Can Inspire Accountability: Three Habits That Make or Break Leaders and Elevate Organizational Performance How to Claim Your Leadership Power | Michael Timms MichaelTimms.com Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights Michael talks about the principles of accountability within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The discussion focuses on how leaders can foster a culture of ownership and high performance among volunteers without relying on the traditional levers of corporate consequences. 00:01:46 – The Challenge of Motivation and Accountability 00:02:18 – Introduction of Michael Timms and His Expertise 00:02:53 – Michael Timms’ Background and Approach to Accountability 00:03:59 – Accountability in a Faith Context 00:04:32 – Defining Accountability 00:06:18 – Understanding Results in a Church Context 00:09:23 – Starting Points for Accountability in Organizations 00:11:06 – The Role of Leaders in Accountability 00:12:20 – Key Behaviors for Modeling Accountability 00:14:21 – Setting Expectations in Leadership 00:16:43 – Importance of Feedback and Communication 00:20:03 – Clarifying Purpose and Results 00:21:36 – Establishing Expectations for Team Dynamics 00:24:24 – Addressing Accountability Breakdowns 00:26:45 – Three Habits of Personal Accountability 00:29:02 – Motivating People in a Volunteer Organization 00:30:26 – The Power of Positive Feedback 00:32:12 – Giving Ownership to Team Members 00:34:12 – Scenarios for Accountability in Activities 00:39:17 – Handling Blame in Accountability Conversations 00:41:39 – Avoiding Micromanagement in Leadership Key Insights Redefining Accountability: Timms defines accountability as taking ownership of results and focusing on the actions necessary to achieve the right outcomes, rather than using it as a euphemism for blame or punishment. The Power of Modeling: Accountability begins with the leader; if those in positions of authority do not own their mistakes or seek feedback, others in the organization are unlikely to do so. Defining Results: In a faith context, “results” should be defined broadly—such as bringing people closer to Christ—and then distilled into specific goals, such as building testimonies or improving how members feel about their Sunday experience. Setting Clear Expectations: High-performing teams agree on general guidelines for how they will work together—such as preferred communication methods and response times—before diving into the work. Three Habits of Personal Accountability: Michael highlights three essential behaviors for leaders: avoiding blame, “looking in the mirror” to see how they contributed to a problem, and “engineering the solution” by fixing broken systems or processes. Motivation Through Ownership: Motivating volunteers is best achieved by giving them a say in outcomes, providing frequent positive feedback to trigger a sense of progress, and granting them true decision-making power within councils. Leadership Applications Requesting Feedback: Leaders can improve performance by sincerely asking those they lead for feedback on how to make it easier for them to achieve their goals. Systemic Problem Solving: When a task is not completed, Michael suggests leaders should ask “where did the process break down?” rather than “who dropped the ball?” to reduce defensiveness and improve future results. Standardizing Procedures: Implementing standard operating procedures for recurring events—such as meeting agendas or baptismal services—helps ensure consistency and reduces the mental load on volunteers. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Steve Webber served a mission for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the Spain Barcelona Mission and later graduated from Brigham Young University with a degree in Business Management. Professionally, he owns and manages an advertising agency. Steve has served in various leadership capacities, including bishop, high counselor, Young Men president, elders quorum president, and high priest group leader. These experiences, along with his time as a home minister, have given him a unique perspective on how valiant ministering can bless the flock of the Good Shepherd. He currently hosts the Home Ministering Podcast on YouTube. Steve lives in Cedar Hills, Utah, with his wife, Jana. They are the parents of five children and five grandchildren. Links HomeMinistering.com Home Ministering: The Process of Perfecting the Saints Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights Steve discusses the evolution of ministering within the Church, emphasizing the shift from home teaching to a more holistic approach to ministering. He shares insights from his book and offers practical advice for leaders to enhance their ministering efforts. 00:03:22 – Background on Steve’s Book 00:04:04 – The Shift from Home Teaching to Ministering 00:05:13 – Early Experiences as a Bishop 00:06:43 – The Importance of Personal Connection 00:08:28 – The Role of Personalization in Ministering 00:09:06 – The Need for Flexibility in Ministering 00:10:00 – Addressing Safety Concerns in Ministering 00:10:31 – The Evolution of Ministering Terminology 00:12:01 – The Church’s Long-Term Vision for Ministering 00:14:25 – The Impact of Ministering on Church Attendance 00:15:40 – The Power of Asking the Right Questions 00:18:43 – Encouraging Open Communication in Ministering 00:20:37 – Serving Like Jesus 00:22:47 – Developing Christlike Attributes through Ministering 00:25:54 – The Importance of Prayer in Ministering 00:28:20 – The Role of Ministering in Building Community 00:30:40 – The Need for Humility in Receiving Help 00:32:54 – The Importance of Ministering Relationships 00:35:02 – Historical Context of Ministering Changes 00:37:21 – The Higher Law of Ministering 00:39:40 – The Role of Family Support in Ministering 00:41:06 – Building Authentic Relationships in Ministering Key Insights Ministering as a Higher Law: The transition from home teaching to ministering represents a return to the original purpose of caring for one another, focusing on service rather than just teaching lessons. Personal Connection: Effective ministering involves building genuine relationships, where ministering brothers and sisters are seen as trusted friends who can provide support and encouragement. The Power of Prayer: Asking families what they need prayer for can open doors for deeper connections and help ministering brothers and sisters understand how to serve effectively. Flexibility in Approach: There is no one-size-fits-all method for ministering; leaders should encourage creativity and adaptability based on the unique needs of families. Importance of Presence: Simply showing up and expressing love can have a profound impact, even if there are no specific tasks to perform. This presence fosters trust and openness. Leadership Applications Encourage Open Communication: Leaders can promote a culture where members feel comfortable sharing their needs, making it easier for ministering brothers and sisters to provide support. Focus on Relationships: Leaders should emphasize the importance of building relationships over merely fulfilling assignments, encouraging members to engage with those they serve on a personal level. Model Humility and Service: By demonstrating a willingness to receive help and support, leaders can set an example for their congregations, showing that vulnerability and openness are strengths in the ministering process. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

"I was triggered" vs. "I chose"—what if both are true, and neither gets to the real problem? When a listener sent Tony a viral video challenging people to replace "I was triggered" with "I chose," it sparked a deeper conversation about accountability, nervous system science, and the shame-based frameworks many of us inherited long before we ever heard the word "trigger." This episode holds two truths at once: yes, adults are responsible for their behavior—and the initial nervous system activation that precedes a choice is real, automatic, and not a moral failure. Episode highlights: Why the word "trigger" can feel like a life sentence to trauma survivors—and an identity assignment to the people who hurt them Rick Hanson's "first and second dart" framework and the four stages of change from unconscious incompetence to unconscious competence The critical distinction between activation and action—and why that space is where all growth lives How Richard Rohr's reframe of sin as brokenness needing healing (not judgment) connects directly to why shame never produces lasting change How shame gets installed in childhood before a four-year-old's brain can separate "I did something bad" from "I am bad"—and how ACT defusion offers a way out 00:00 Welcome and Course Plug 01:08 Listener Email and The Bet 03:33 Nick Pollard Trigger Reframe 04:57 Agreeing With Nuance 08:58 Trigger Word Cultural Weight 13:21 First and Second Darts 15:08 Four Stages of Change 21:21 Agency vs Nervous System 24:00 Pathologically Kind and Shame 26:46 Language Shapes Experience 27:18 Sin Versus Healing 28:36 Rohr Reframes Brokenness 31:08 Shame Keeps Us Stuck 31:57 How Shame Gets Installed 37:03 ACT And Defusion 40:13 Radical Acceptance Lens 41:52 Original Sin Culture Myth 46:43 Kingdom Of God Within 49:18 What We Learned Today 51:37 Closing Reflections Tony Overbay is a licensed marriage and family therapist, betrayal trauma certified, and host of The Virtual Couch, Waking Up to Narcissism, and Love, ADHD podcasts. If the idea of change through agency—not shame—resonates with you, explore Tony's Magnetic Marriage course at tonyoverbay.com/magnetic Please follow Tony on Instagram @virtual.couch on Tiktok @virtualcouch on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/tonyoverbaylmft and on Substack https://thevirtualcouch.substack.com/ You can reach out to Tony through his website tonyoverbay.com or by emailing contact @ tonyoverbay.com

"I was triggered" vs. "I chose"—what if both are true, and neither gets to the real problem? When a listener sent Tony a viral video challenging people to replace "I was triggered" with "I chose," it sparked a deeper conversation about accountability, nervous system science, and the shame-based frameworks many of us inherited long before we ever heard the word "trigger." This episode holds two truths at once: yes, adults are responsible for their behavior—and the initial nervous system activation that precedes a choice is real, automatic, and not a moral failure. Episode highlights: Why the word "trigger" can feel like a life sentence to trauma survivors—and an identity assignment to the people who hurt them Rick Hanson's "first and second dart" framework and the four stages of change from unconscious incompetence to unconscious competence The critical distinction between activation and action—and why that space is where all growth lives How Richard Rohr's reframe of sin as brokenness needing healing (not judgment) connects directly to why shame never produces lasting change How shame gets installed in childhood before a four-year-old's brain can separate "I did something bad" from "I am bad"—and how ACT defusion offers a way out 00:00 Welcome and Course Plug 01:08 Listener Email and The Bet 03:33 Nick Pollard Trigger Reframe 04:57 Agreeing With Nuance 08:58 Trigger Word Cultural Weight 13:21 First and Second Darts 15:08 Four Stages of Change 21:21 Agency vs Nervous System 24:00 Pathologically Kind and Shame 26:46 Language Shapes Experience 27:18 Sin Versus Healing 28:36 Rohr Reframes Brokenness 31:08 Shame Keeps Us Stuck 31:57 How Shame Gets Installed 37:03 ACT And Defusion 40:13 Radical Acceptance Lens 41:52 Original Sin Culture Myth 46:43 Kingdom Of God Within 49:18 What We Learned Today 51:37 Closing Reflections Tony Overbay is a licensed marriage and family therapist, betrayal trauma certified, and host of The Virtual Couch, Waking Up to Narcissism, and Love, ADHD podcasts. If the idea of change through agency—not shame—resonates with you, explore Tony's Magnetic Marriage course at tonyoverbay.com/magnetic Please follow Tony on Instagram @virtual.couch on Tiktok @virtualcouch on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/tonyoverbaylmft and on Substack https://thevirtualcouch.substack.com/ You can reach out to Tony through his website tonyoverbay.com or by emailing contact @ tonyoverbay.com

Brandon Bennett currently serves as a Professor of Religious Education at Brigham Young University–Idaho. He previously worked for more than a decade in Seminaries and Institutes of Religion in Utah and Texas, where he was blessed to teach the restored gospel to many remarkable youth and young adults. Throughout much of his adult life, he has held callings working with the rising generation, focusing on strengthening their faith in Jesus Christ and helping them build a firm spiritual foundation. His experiences as a religious educator and youth leader have reinforced the importance of teaching truth “in plainness” (2 Nephi 31:3). Teaching doctrine with clarity and simplicity has, therefore, become one of his great priorities and convictions. He believes that as we seek to clearly understand and faithfully apply the principles taught in the scriptures and the words of the prophets—free from false assumptions—we place ourselves in a position to more fully receive the Savior's power, peace, and direction in our lives. Brandon shares faith-filled thoughts on finding purpose in pain through Jesus Christ. This livestream explores why trials come—from our own choices, mortality, others' actions, or divine tutoring—and how the Savior's touch can give any experience meaning. Rather than saying “everything happens for a reason,” Brandon reframes the idea: through Jesus Christ, everything can have a reason and purpose. Drawing on scripture, doctrine, and the story of the man born blind, this discussion offers hope, perspective, and practical faith for anyone navigating hardship—and for leaders counseling others through it. Links Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights 00:02:31 – The Challenge of Offering Comfort in Trials 00:03:29 – Introduction of Brandon Bennett 00:04:04 – Background on Brandon’s Presentation 00:05:57 – The Complexity of Trials and Comforting Statements 00:07:35 – The Impact of “Everything Happens for a Reason” 00:09:20 – Understanding Trials Through Personal Experience 00:10:07 – The Nature of Adversity 00:11:21 – Orson F. Whitney’s Quote on Pain and Growth 00:12:54 – The Role of the Savior in Our Trials 00:14:27 – The Importance of Perspective in Trials 00:15:58 – The Role of Empathy in Leadership 00:20:51 – The Danger of Speculative Doctrines 00:23:12 – The Power of Empathy in Healing 00:25:04 – The Role of the Savior in Our Trials 00:26:33 – How to Involve Jesus Christ in Our Lives 00:30:25 – The Doctrine of Christ and Accessing His Power 00:34:25 – The Paradox of Grace 00:40:05 – The Nature of the Savior’s Love and Acceptance 00:42:12 – Conclusion and Final Thoughts on Trials and Healing The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

You said, "That sounds really hard," so why is your partner still upset? It's called the Empathy Dash — that moment you touch your partner's pain just long enough to check a box, then sprint toward solutions, silver linings, or your own experience. In over 1,500 couples sessions, Tony has watched this pattern quietly erode trust while both partners swear they're trying. This episode unpacks why your empathy isn't landing, what your nervous system is actually doing when you rush to fix, and a deceptively simple practice that changes everything. In this episode, you'll discover: Why "me too" on the inside lands like "not you" on the outside — and the intent-vs-impact gap where relationships slowly erode Stealing Thunder: the real-time couples session moment that perfectly captures how sharing gets hijacked before it even lands How your Adaptive Child — the survival strategy that kept you safe growing up — is now sabotaging your closest relationship The neuroscience of co-regulation and why your calm presence does more than your best advice ever could The 3-Before-1 Rule: a concrete practice for staying present when every instinct says fix, solve, or flee Tony Overbay, LMFT, draws from over two decades of couples therapy, Terry Real's relational framework, and Dan Siegel's interpersonal neurobiology to redefine what empathy actually looks like in practice. If you've ever left a conversation thinking "I said all the right things" while your partner felt completely unseen — this one's for you. You're not broken. You just don't know what you don't know yet. 00:00 Welcome and Where to Follow 01:15 Retreat Story Mental Load Misfire 04:56 Intent vs Impact in Bids 06:08 Attack Surface and Pathological Kindness 09:37 Sequencing the Conversation 12:26 Stealing Thunder Named 17:02 Catching the Thunder Grab 18:17 Drive By Empathy Metaphor 21:03 Empathy vs Sympathy Basics 22:36 Why Optimism Can Dismiss 24:02 What Empathy Actually Does 26:58 Real Life Fixing Examples 28:39 Spotting the Empathy Dash 29:30 Why We Do It 30:12 Adaptive Child Origins 31:39 Fixer vs Avoider Examples 33:49 Co-Regulation Explained 34:44 Two Ways to Respond 37:16 Four Pillars Framework 38:11 Questions Before Comments 38:58 Curiosity in Action 42:19 Three Before One Rule 45:40 When Effort Feels Unseen 47:35 Handling Your Triggers 49:27 Closing Encouragement Get on the waitlist today for Tony's upcoming Magnetic Marriage live course! Head to https://tonyoverbay.com/magnetic Contact Tony at contact@tonyoverbay.com to learn more about his Emotional Architects men's group.

Ganel-Lyn Condie is a popular speaker, author, and mental health advocate. With insight shaped by faith, lived experience, and cultural awareness, she brings both compassion and clarity to the question many leaders and members are asking: How do we help people feel seen, known, and loved—especially those on the margins? In this episode, Ganel-Lyn discusses her new book, Sourdough and the Savior, which explores the parallels between the process of making sourdough bread and the teachings of Jesus Christ. The conversation emphasizes the importance of ministering, community building, and personal growth through shared experiences. Links Sourdough and the Savior Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Key Insights Sourdough as a Metaphor: Ganel-Lyn uses sourdough baking as a metaphor for understanding the characteristics of the Savior, illustrating how personal struggles can lead to spiritual growth. Ministering through Connection: The act of sharing sourdough has become a means of ministering to others, fostering connections, and creating opportunities for healing and conversation. Building Community: Ganel-Lyn emphasizes the need for community in the church, particularly for those who may feel isolated. She shares her experience of hosting informal gatherings to create a space for connection without the pressure of formal church events. Vulnerability in Leadership: By sharing her own feelings of loneliness and identity struggles, Ganel-Lyn encourages leaders to be open and vulnerable, which can help others feel seen and understood. Diversity in Gifts: The discussion highlights that everyone has unique gifts to share, and these contributions, no matter how small, can significantly impact the community and help build Zion. Leadership Applications Encouraging Informal Gatherings: Leaders can create opportunities for members to connect outside of formal church settings, fostering a sense of belonging and community. Modeling Vulnerability: By being open about their own challenges, leaders can create an environment where others feel safe to share their struggles, leading to deeper connections and support. Recognizing Individual Contributions: Leaders should encourage members to share their unique talents and experiences, reinforcing the idea that every contribution is valuable in building a strong, diverse community. Highlights 00:03:02 – Ganel-Lyn’s Journey to Writing 00:06:29 – The Struggles of Sourdough 00:10:18 – The Role of Ministering 00:11:03 – Building Zion Through Community 00:13:04 – Sharing Talents and Gifts 00:15:08 – The Impact of Sourdough 00:16:49 – The Importance of Connection 00:20:50 – Navigating Loneliness 00:24:01 – Creating Inclusive Gatherings 00:27:21 – The Essence of Community 00:30:20 – The Role of Church Leaders 00:34:25 – The Importance of Vulnerability The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Your memory has been turned—and the double agent is inside your own mind. After years in a relationship with someone emotionally immature or narcissistic, the damage isn't just that they rewrite history. It's that you stop trusting your own ability to know what happened. This episode unpacks confabulation—the unconscious, real-time rewriting of memory that goes far beyond lying or gaslighting—and explains why the story keeps changing, why you can't win the memory argument, and why your gut is still your most reliable intelligence. Tony Overbay, LMFT, walks through the neuroscience of how memory actually works, why your brain's negativity bias makes you especially vulnerable in these relationships, and what you can do when your explicit memory has been compromised but your body still knows the truth. In this episode, you'll discover: The critical difference between lying, gaslighting, and confabulation—and why confabulation is the most disorienting of the three Why your implicit memory (your gut) can't be gaslit—and how to start trusting the data your nervous system is handing you How the brain's negativity bias creates a lopsided scorecard that someone emotionally immature exploits, often without even knowing it The "false self" vs. a healthy ego—and why confabulation is a fragile identity fighting for survival, not a calculated strategy Real examples from therapy sessions, interrogation rooms, and faith transitions that reveal confabulation in action As a licensed marriage and family therapist who has worked with hundreds navigating emotionally immature relationships, Tony brings both clinical precision and deep compassion to a topic that can finally help you stop questioning your sanity. If you've been told your memory is wrong but your body keeps telling you something isn't right—this episode is your permission to trust what you feel. 00:00 Your Memory Betrays You 02:21 The Double Agent Reveal 02:54 Why You Feel Crazy 04:27 Implicit Memory Saves You 07:15 What Confabulation Means 09:59 How Narcissists Rewrite Reality 15:38 How Memory Gets Shaped 17:20 Negativity Bias And Healing 23:49 Lies Gaslighting Confabulation 26:40 Why The Story Keeps Changing 29:51 Fame Identity Collapse 31:37 Everyday Confabulation Fights 32:51 Faith Crisis Family Story 37:27 Belief Systems Double Down 39:47 Interrogation Room Patching 43:13 Politics Ego Survival 47:06 Healthy vs False Ego 50:48 Course Pitch Pillars 54:30 Final Takeaways Wrap

What happens when your greatest strengths—your empathy, your willingness to self-reflect, your sensitivity—become the very tools someone uses to convince you everything is your fault? In this crossover episode with therapist Angela De Hoyos, ALC, Tony explores why validation feels like survival when you were raised in an emotionally unpredictable home. You learned that love could vanish without warning—so you became hypervigilant, endlessly working to secure a connection that was never yours to earn. Now you may find yourself starving for validation from the one person who can't hold it steadily. You can learn more about Angela by visiting her website https://www.findingbalancecounseling.com/ and subscribe to her podcast “Finding Balance with Mental Health and Spirituality” here https://www.findingbalancecounseling.com/podcast EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: Understand the origins of validation: why we learn we exist through others' responses—and how that wiring gets exploited Discover why "pathologically kind" people attract emotionally immature partners—and keep trying harder when it doesn't work Recognize the trap of "if it's my fault, I can fix it"—and why that belief keeps you chasing validation instead of building self-trust Learn the crucial difference between validation and agreement—you can acknowledge someone's experience without abandoning your own Build a 90% solid sense of self so you stop outsourcing your worth to people who use it against you 00:00 Introduction and Episode Overview 01:25 Guest Introduction: Angela de Hoyos 03:16 The Magnetic Marriage Course Pitch 06:20 Understanding Validation and Emotional Immaturity 08:15 Therapeutic Insights and Parenting Dynamics 20:46 The Concept of Co-Regulation 28:40 Exploring the Concept of Existence and Value 29:05 The Story of Jill: Unpredictable Childhood 30:33 Understanding Validation and Recognition 33:50 The Role of Self-Validation 40:59 Spiritual Perspectives on Validation 51:25 Final Thoughts and Reflections Get on the waitlist today for Tony's upcoming Magnetic Marriage live course! Head to https://tonyoverbay.com/magnetic If you are interested in joining Tony's private Facebook group for women in narcissistic or emotionally immature relationships of any type, please reach out to him at contact@tonyoverbay.com or through the form on the website, HTTP://www.tonyoverbay.com If you are a man interested in joining Tony's "Emotional Architects" group to learn how to better navigate your relationship with a narcissistic or emotionally immature partner or learn how to become more emotionally mature yourself, please reach out to Tony at contact@tonyoverbay.com or through the form on the website, HTTP:www.tonyoverbay.com

What happens when your greatest strengths—your empathy, your willingness to self-reflect, your sensitivity—become the very tools someone uses to convince you everything is your fault? In this crossover episode with therapist Angela De Hoyos, ALC, Tony explores why validation feels like survival when you were raised in an emotionally unpredictable home. You learned that love could vanish without warning—so you became hypervigilant, endlessly working to secure connection that was never yours to earn. Now you may find yourself starving for validation from the one person who can't hold it steadily. You can learn more about Angela by visiting her website https://www.findingbalancecounseling.com/ and subscribe to her podcast “Finding Balance with Mental Health and Spirituality” here https://www.findingbalancecounseling.com/podcast EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: Understand the origins of validation: why we learn we exist through others' responses—and how that wiring gets exploited Discover why "pathologically kind" people attract emotionally immature partners—and keep trying harder when it doesn't work Recognize the trap of "if it's my fault, I can fix it"—and why that belief keeps you chasing validation instead of building self-trust Learn the crucial difference between validation and agreement—you can acknowledge someone's experience without abandoning your own Build a 90% solid sense of self so you stop outsourcing your worth to people who use it against you 00:00 Introduction and Episode Overview 01:25 Guest Introduction: Angela de Hoyos 03:16 The Magnetic Marriage Course Pitch 06:20 Understanding Validation and Emotional Immaturity 08:15 Therapeutic Insights and Parenting Dynamics 20:46 The Concept of Co-Regulation 28:40 Exploring the Concept of Existence and Value 29:05 The Story of Jill: Unpredictable Childhood 30:33 Understanding Validation and Recognition 33:50 The Role of Self-Validation 40:59 Spiritual Perspectives on Validation 51:25 Final Thoughts and Reflections Get on the waitlist today for Tony's upcoming Magnetic Marriage live course! Head to https://tonyoverbay.com/magnetic If you are interested in joining Tony's private Facebook group for women in narcissistic or emotionally immature relationships of any type, please reach out to him at contact@tonyoverbay.com or through the form on the website, HTTP://www.tonyoverbay.com If you are a man interested in joining Tony's "Emotional Architects" group to learn how to better navigate your relationship with a narcissistic or emotionally immature partner or learn how to become more emotionally mature yourself, please reach out to Tony at contact@tonyoverbay.com or through the form on the website, HTTP:www.tonyoverbay.com

Why do the people you thought knew you best stay silent—or worse, side with the person who hurt you? This secondary betrayal often cuts deeper than the narcissistic behavior itself. Switzerland friends insist on neutrality while your pain makes them uncomfortable. Flying monkeys carry your vulnerability straight back to your abuser. When you finally name what's happening and the people closest to you rush to minimize or report back, your nervous system doesn't just register disappointment—it registers danger. Tony walks through why "I don't want to take sides" isn't actually neutral, how flying monkeys weaponize your words, and the exhausting ping-pong match of trying to be understood by people who need not to understand you in order to feel safe themselves. In this episode, you'll learn: The critical difference between Switzerland friends (who neutralize) and flying monkeys (who expose)—and why both leave you questioning reality How narcissistic systems hijack co-regulation, making everyone responsible for stabilizing the most emotionally immature person in the room Why your body's response after sharing something vulnerable is better data than the words exchanged The five ways narcissists regulate their nervous systems through you: superiority, victimhood, being right, being admired, and being defended How to stop "auditioning for belief" and start choosing relationships that can actually hold emotional weight Drawing from over 20 years of couples therapy and thousands of real conversations, Tony offers a framework for recognizing when explanation has replaced connection—and why the most regulated thing you can say is simply, "I know what I experienced." Ready to stop offering your nervous system as a resource to people who won't protect it? Subscribe and share this episode with someone who needs to hear they're not crazy—they're waking up. 00:00 Introduction and Gratitude 00:37 Sales Pitch: Magnetic Marriage Course 05:37 Understanding Narcissistic Relationships 06:46 The Pain of Secondary Betrayal 07:44 Navigating Anger and Injustice 15:04 Switzerland Friends and Emotional Avoidance 22:03 Story Time: Ned, Steve, and Fran 30:01 Avoiding Accountability and Ownership 30:17 The Role of Flying Monkeys 30:32 Switzerland Friends vs. Flying Monkeys 30:57 Emotional Honesty in Unsafe Systems 31:17 The Futility of Over-Explaining 34:02 Adjusting Expectations and Setting Boundaries 34:42 Understanding and Managing Anger 35:28 Withdrawing the Need for Permission 36:23 Grieving What Won't Change 37:14 Recognizing Emotionally Safe Relationships 39:13 The Concept of Co-Regulation 39:55 Narcissistic Systems and Emotional Regulation 45:43 Interacting with Switzerland Friends and Flying Monkeys 54:46 Choosing Relationships That Hold Emotional Weight 55:41 Final Thoughts and Encouragement Get on the waitlist today for Tony's upcoming Magnetic Marriage live course! Head to https://tonyoverbay.com/magnetic If you are interested in joining Tony's private Facebook group for women in narcissistic or emotionally immature relationships of any type, please reach out to him at contact@tonyoverbay.com or through the form on the website, HTTP://www.tonyoverbay.com If you are a man interested in joining Tony's "Emotional Architects" group to learn how to better navigate your relationship with a narcissistic or emotionally immature partner or learn how to become more emotionally mature yourself, please reach out to Tony at contact@tonyoverbay.com or through the form on the website, HTTP:www.tonyoverbay.com

Why does your spouse get to want things while you're drowning in responsibility? That resentment you feel watching your partner pursue hobbies while you manage everything isn't petty—it reveals what Tony identifies as one of the "fundamental wounds" in modern marriages: the split between duty and desire. Through the story of Sarah and Michael—a couple weeks from divorce—Tony explores how one partner can become a pure, exhausting obligation while the other escapes into hollow pleasures. Both are starving for what the other has, but neither can see it. You'll discover why the "serpent's trick" convinces us that what we want and what we should do are enemies when they were always meant to work together. In this episode, you'll learn: Why feeling like "a machine that keeps everyone running" signals you've lost connection to your own desires—and why reclaiming them is actually part of your duty as a parent and partner The difference between discipline that crushes your soul and discipline that creates freedom (hint: it depends on whether it's aligned with your actual values or just "socially compliant goals") How asking "what can I do to help?" often puts the mental load right back on your overwhelmed spouse. Why Michael's gaming and biking felt hollow even though Sarah assumed he was "living his best life." The concept of impermanence—and why accepting that your beliefs will evolve is liberating, not threatening Tony Overbay, LMFT, draws from over 20 years of couples therapy and 1,500+ couples to share the exact framework that helped Sarah and Michael move from combat to connection. Ready to stop the cycle? Join the Magnetic Marriage waitlist at tonyoverbay.com/magnetic and learn what you don't know you don't know about reconnecting with your partner. 00:00 Introduction and Host Background 00:35 Common Relationship Challenges 01:53 The Magnetic Marriage Program 02:59 Today's Episode: Overwhelmed by Responsibilities 03:37 Meet Sarah and Michael: A Struggling Couple 03:57 Sarah's Perspective: Duty Over Desire 13:12 Michael's Perspective: Desire Over Duty 17:49 The Core Wound: Duty vs. Desire 21:50 Connecting to Universal Archetypes 28:10 Embracing Change and Growth 28:26 Embracing Impermanence 28:45 Healing Through Change 29:34 The Paradox of Certainty 29:55 Sarah and Michael's Journey 32:20 The Garden of Eden Metaphor 33:07 The Serpent's Trick 34:40 Modern Examples of Duty vs. Desire 38:00 The Role of Discipline 40:42 Integrating Duty and Desire 48:42 Personal Reflections on Duty 49:53 Values vs. Socially Compliant Goals 54:05 Sarah and Michael's Progress 56:24 Conclusion and Call to Action Get on the waitlist today for Tony's upcoming Magnetic Marriage live course! Head to https://tonyoverbay.com/magnetic Contact Tony at contact@tonyoverbay.com to learn more about his Emotional Architects men's group.

Frank Schwartz is a husband—for nearly 25 years—and a father of three girls. He has served in several bishoprics, elders quorum presidencies, high councils, high priest group leaderships and Young Men presidencies (back when those were a thing), and a variety of other callings over the years. Frank did undergraduate and graduate work in Psychology and worked in television before starting a small, boutique, corporate communications firm. Most recently he has worked for a client in the healthcare payments space. Frank joined F3 in 2014 and has served in the national leadership in different capacities prior to taking over as Nant'an/CEO in 2024. Links Fellowshipping Men in Elders Quorum | An Interview with Frank Schwartz Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights 00:02:40 – Discussion on Elders Quorum Engagement 00:03:01 – Personal Experience with F3 and Transformation 00:05:11 – The Importance of Community for Men 00:09:18 – The Need for Transformational Experiences 00:10:08 – Finding Truth and Community 00:12:13 – The Simplicity of Gathering Men 00:14:02 – The Role of Food in Building Brotherhood 00:15:32 – The Power of Gathering in Elders Quorum 00:18:00 – Authenticity in Church Leadership 00:20:56 – Creating Comfortable Spaces for Discussion 00:22:04 – Personal Transformation After Warrior Heart Bootcamp 00:23:24 – The Quest for Personal Purpose 00:25:05 – Shifting Perspectives on Relationships 00:30:00 – The Broader Plan and God’s Purpose 00:33:55 – Limiting Perspectives and Personal Growth 00:37:40 – The Journey of Self-Discovery and Adventure Frank and Kurt discuss approaches to engaging men in elders quorum and fostering brotherhood within the Latter-day Saint community. They explore the importance of transformational experiences and how simple gatherings can lead to deeper connections among men. Key Insights Transformational Experiences: Men often seek meaningful experiences that can lead to personal growth and connection. Frank shares how participating in F3 and Warrior Heart boot camps has profoundly changed his perspective on leadership and relationships. Gathering for Brotherhood: The act of gathering, whether for workouts or casual meet-ups, is crucial for building community. Frank emphasizes that men need spaces where they can connect and share their experiences authentically. Authenticity in Leadership: Leaders should prioritize creating environments where vulnerability is encouraged. This can be achieved by moving away from rigid lesson structures and focusing on genuine interactions. Shifting Perspectives: Frank discusses the importance of recognizing limiting beliefs and perspectives that can hinder personal growth. Leaders should help others see beyond their current views to embrace a broader understanding of their purpose. Simplicity in Engagement: Simple gatherings, such as meeting for hot dogs or casual discussions, can effectively draw men together and foster meaningful conversations, making it easier for them to engage with one another. Leadership Applications Focus on Gathering: Latter-day Saint leaders can prioritize creating informal gatherings that encourage connection among men, such as breakfast meetings or service projects, rather than strictly adhering to lesson plans. Encourage Vulnerability: Leaders should model vulnerability and openness in their interactions, creating a safe space for others to share their thoughts and feelings, which can lead to stronger bonds within the group. Challenge Limiting Beliefs: Leaders can facilitate discussions that help members identify and overcome limiting beliefs, encouraging them to explore their divine potential and purpose within the community. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Brother Eric Richards teaches Institute and Seminary in the Utah North Area, is a member of the Veritas society, a contributing author for the Patheos project, and a member of the International Writers and Editors Association. He has served in several Bishoprics, twice on High Councils, in the Stake Presidency, and now serves as a Bishop. For five years, Brother Richards and his team wrote the Online Seminary Curriculum. He presents at BYU and BYU-Idaho Education Week and is the author of Preparing for the Second Coming, Come Follow Me: Words of the Week, and was a contributing author for Deseret Book's “Hear Him” project. He's a certified Neuroscience Coach, and a great pickleball player in his free time. Brother Richards grew up attending the Mountain View Baptist Church in San Diego before missionaries baptized him and his mom. He served a mission in Honduras, and his son later served in the same mission. He first moved to Utah after meeting his future wife at EFY, and taught Seminary and played water polo and volleyball for Utah State University. They have been married for 27 years. Most of all, he loves teaching and being with valiant Christians around the world. Links Preparing for the Second Coming Come Follow Me: Words of the Week Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights How can we lead in a way that connects members deeply to Jesus Christ? This conversation moves beyond administrative duties to explore practical frameworks for empowering members, delivering difficult counsel, and fostering a revelation-driven ward culture. 00:02:37 – Eric Richards’s Background and Experience 00:06:05 – Core Messages and Focus on Jesus Christ 00:07:42 – Approaching Leadership and Interviews 00:12:21 – The Importance of the Bishop’s Helpline 00:13:05 – Interview Techniques for Revelation 00:20:03 – The Role of Hope in Leadership 00:24:11 – Addressing Pornography in Ministering Interviews 00:30:51 – Supporting Speakers and Teachers in Sacrament Meetings 00:35:07 – Encouraging Discussion in Sunday School 00:39:26 – Inspired Counsel on Callings 00:45:12 – The Bishop’s Prayer List and Personal Ministry 00:46:33 – Ministering Interviews and Strengthening Faith Key Insights Connecting to Christ: All leadership efforts should ultimately prioritize helping individuals develop a personal relationship with the Savior rather than simply maintaining organizational functions. Four Levels of Problem Solving: Leaders can empower members by identifying their current “level” of problem-solving: Level 1 (bringing a completed solution), Level 2 (proposing options), Level 3 (sharing findings/research), or Level 4 (simply asking for the answer). The “Hot Sauce” Technique: Delivering difficult correction is most effective when used as a “compliment sandwich,” where hard truths are encased in genuine love to ensure the counsel is “metabolized” rather than rejected. Facilitating Personal Revelation: Leaders should serve as a “Sherpa” or “guide on the side,” asking questions that invite the member to receive their own answers from the Spirit rather than providing them directly. Wellness Baselines: Richards emphasizes checking a member’s physical (sleep, diet, exercise) and spiritual (prayer, scripture, temple) “baselines” to address holistic needs before tackling complex emotional or behavioral issues. Heart-Led Vulnerability: To create safety, leaders should model vulnerability in sacrament meetings and classes, prioritizing personal, “heart-led” experiences over purely informational “head-led” teaching. Leadership Applications Member Empowerment: Instead of solving every problem, a leader can ask a member where they are on the 1–4 problem-solving scale, encouraging them to find and present their own solutions for the leader’s approval. Ward Council Dynamics: Councils are most effective when members “check their ego” and evaluate every proposal through “three hats”: their perspective as an individual, as a friend/neighbor, and through their specific stewardship. Joyful Ward Culture: Leaders can foster a “Church of Joy” by normalizing post-meeting interactions and using specific roles, such as “stenographers” to document the ward’s spiritual history and community connections. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Stephan Taeger is an assistant professor in Ancient Scripture at Brigham Young University. He received a PhD from BYU in Instructional Design and Technology. Stephan's research focuses on Homiletics (the study of preaching), narrative instruction, and ancient scripture. He is also an author and co-host of the RVVL podcast with David Butler. Links Y Religion: Justification by Faith The Science of Speaking in Sacrament Meeting | An Interview with Stephan Taeger President Spencer W. Kimball: “Jesus the Perfect Leader” Sermons and talks by Timothy Keller on YouTube Stephan Taeger: “Declared Guiltless: Justification by Faith in the Latter-day Saint Classroom” Toxic Perfectionism at Church | An Interview with Justin Dyer Justification: God’s Plan, Paul’s Vision N.T. Wright on YouTube Weakness Is Not Sin: The Liberating Distinction That Awakens Our Strengths RVVL Podcast StephanTaeger.com Tim Keller: Sin as Self-Deceit Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights 00:04:00 – Stephan Taeger’s Background and Teaching Focus 00:05:00 – Influence of Tim Keller on Understanding Justification 00:06:00 – Justification Explained 00:09:00 – The Relationship Between Justification and Works 00:10:30 – Understanding the Role of Covenants 00:11:30 – The Importance of Faithfulness 00:12:30 – The Marriage Analogy for Justification 00:13:30 – The Role of the Sacrament in Justification 00:14:30 – Defining Sanctification 00:15:30 – The Process of Becoming More Like God 00:17:00 – The Role of Obedience in Response to Grace 00:18:00 – Addressing Perfectionism in Leadership 00:19:00 – The Impact of Sin on Community 00:20:00 – The Role of Bishops in Restricting Ordinances 00:22:00 – Understanding Restrictions as Support 00:23:00 – The Nature of Punishment vs. Guidance 00:24:00 – Mental Health and Perfectionism 00:25:00 – Addressing Sexual Development and Sin 00:26:00 – The Importance of Striving for Sanctification 00:27:00 – The Role of the Bishop in Mental Health 00:28:00 – The Challenge of Perfectionism 00:29:00 – The Concept of Forgiveness 00:30:00 – The Nature of Grace in the Gospel Key Insights Justification Defined: Justification is described as being pardoned from sin and declared guiltless, occurring when individuals enter a covenant relationship with God through faith, repentance, baptism, and receiving the Holy Ghost. Sanctification Explained: Sanctification is the ongoing process of becoming more like God, involving a change in one's nature, thoughts, and desires over time, as individuals strive to live in accordance with their covenants. The Role of Grace: Grace is central to understanding both justification and sanctification. It emphasizes that salvation is a gift from God, not solely based on individual works, and that individuals can have confidence in their justified state. Addressing Perfectionism: Many Latter-day Saints struggle with perfectionism, often feeling unworthy despite understanding the doctrine. The conversation highlights the importance of recognizing one’s worth as inherent and not solely based on actions. Mental Health Considerations: The discussion touches on the intersection of mental health and religious beliefs, particularly regarding OCD and scrupulosity, emphasizing the need for compassion and understanding in addressing these issues. Leadership Applications Fostering a Culture of Grace: Leaders can create an environment where members feel secure in their justified state, encouraging them to engage in the gospel without the burden of shame or guilt. Understanding Individual Needs: By recognizing that unmet needs may drive certain behaviors, leaders can approach members with empathy, focusing on support rather than judgment. Promoting Continuous Growth: Leaders should emphasize the importance of striving for sanctification, framing commandments and ordinances as opportunities for growth rather than as mere obligations, thus inspiring members to engage more fully in their spiritual journeys. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

This is a rebroadcast of a podcast episode from Teaching Restored, a podcast exploring the how of teaching the restored gospel of Jesus Christ to bring others unto Him, helping gospel teachers become more confident, converted, and consecrated. Hosts Kevin Jones and Julie Hillyard are both former guests on the Leading Saints Podcast and you can join Kevin for further teaching-related discussion in Zion Lab. Links Teaching Restored Teaching Restored on YouTube @teachingrestored Teaching Sunday School with Questions | An Interview with Kevin Jones Stimulating Sunday School Discussion… But Not Too Much | An Interview with Julie Hillyard Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights Kevin and Julie explore the concept of “flipped” learning as a model for “home-centered, church-supported” gospel study. They discuss transitioning from a lecture-based church experience to a “laboratory” environment where members act as a council to solve problems and apply doctrines learned at home. Key Insights The Flipped Classroom Model: In a traditional setting, teachers lecture and students do “homework” alone; in a flipped model, students learn the material at home and use class time to work through practical applications with the teacher's help. Defining Scriptural Understanding: Citing Elder Bednar, Kevin notes that scriptural “understanding” is not merely mental comprehension, but occurs when the heart confirms what the mind has learned. The “Preparer” as the Primary Learner: The person who prepares a talk or lesson historically learns the most. The goal of a flipped church is to elevate every member to the status of a “preparer” before they arrive at Sunday meetings. Accountability Through System Changes: To motivate home study, Kevin suggests “blowing up” the traditional lecture system. If members know they will be required to participate in a solution-based council rather than listen to a lecture, they are more likely to engage with the materials at home. Utilizing Existing Tools: Julie highlights that the Come, Follow Me manuals and Gospel Library app already provide the necessary “lab” prompts—such as writing a eulogy for Joseph Smith—but these are often ignored in favor of passive reading. Leadership Applications Transitioning from Teacher to Moderator: Leaders can “release” traditional teachers and instead call “discussion heads” or moderators. This shifts the burden of learning onto the quorum or class members and prevents “spiritual engines” from turning off during a lecture. Implementing Solution-Based Councils: Instead of sharing “happy thoughts,” leaders should present specific ward or family conundrums—such as helping elderly members attend the temple—and ask the council to generate actionable solutions. Closing the Feedback Loop: When a council generates a solution, leaders must take those ideas to the Ward Council or Bishopric and report back to the members. This demonstrates that their participation has a direct impact on the ward’s operation. 00:04:22 – Introduction to Flipped School Concept 00:06:25 – New Year’s Resolutions and Teaching Goals 00:07:07 – Understanding Flipped School Model 00:09:05 – Home-Centered, Church-Supported Learning 00:10:24 – The Role of Preparation in Learning 00:12:01 – The Importance of Family Engagement 00:13:05 – Elder Oaks on Family Togetherness 00:17:02 – The Challenge of Utilizing Extra Time 00:19:04 – Elder Bednar on Understanding and Revelation 00:21:44 – The Need for Personal Preparation 00:24:51 – Tools for Effective Gospel Study 00:28:32 – Practical Application of Come Follow Me 00:30:32 – The Role of Motivation in Learning 00:32:08 – Innovative Elders Quorum Model 00:36:05 – Benefits of Council-Based Learning 00:40:34 – Youth Engagement in Problem Solving 00:43:00 – The Importance of Practice in Councils 00:46:34 – Reframing Youth Teaching Opportunities The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Ernesto Quintanilla is the co-host (with his wife Nancy) and driving force behind Santos en Liderazgo, the official Spanish-language expansion of the Leading Saints podcast. A dedicated leader and communicator, Ernesto is passionate about helping Spanish-speaking Latter-day Saints enhance their leadership skills and better serve their communities. By interviewing experienced leaders and sharing research-backed principles, Ernesto bridges the gap between traditional leadership concepts and the unique cultural nuances of Latino congregations. His work focuses on empowering local leaders—from Bishops and Relief Society presidents to youth advisors—with the tools and inspiration needed to lead with Christlike love and administrative excellence. Links Santos en Liderazgo on YouTube Santos en Liderazgo in Zion Lab Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Highlights Coming soon The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

This recording of a recent Zion Lab livestream offers great ideas to support worship through music in your ward and stake. Links Landon’s Organ Training Course Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Highlights Coming soon The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.