Podcasts about kate you

A quick bonus episode with some thoughts around burnout and the holiday season and what we might consider in order to honor a more ancestral rhythm. First conceived in late November, then recorded a week or so ago, the rhythm of bringing this episode to you demonstrates my own honoring of this rhythm. No rush. Everything in its time. If you do want to join us in the virtual roundhouse for an experiential exploration and re-imagining of how our longer ago ancestors would have gathered for ceremony and story; as a way to keep themselves human, whole, connected, and alive at this time of longest night and the return of the sun… we'll be gathering on Dec 20th (tomorrow from when this episode actually goes live). You can find more info or save your spot: https://www.wildsacredjourney.com/winter-solstice-in-the-roundhouse Here's to rest, the fruitful darkness, and the blessed return of the light. With love, Kate __________________ You can find Kate: Website: www.wildsacredjourney.com Email – kate@wildsacredjourney.com Instagram: @wildsacredjourney_kp --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/kate-powell-wsjp/support

What if your fear of being seen as lazy is wasting your fire and contributing to your burnout? And what if what we've been taught to consider as laziness is our body and brain trying to recalibrate back to more sustainable cycles of efforting and rest? __________ Your desire to contribute and make a difference is a genuine and beautiful thing… and when it gets entangled with (often unconscious and unexamined) societal conditioning around the evils of laziness and the glories of productivity… we end up primed for burnout. But we need our fire. In these times, perhaps, more than ever.  We need to be able to face challenges in less exhausting, more pleasurable ways. We need to work rest into our cycles of efforting so we can keep going. Tune in to hear me share these thoughts and some exercises I've found to be helpful. Try them with me and let me know how it goes?  I'd love to hear.  Here's to climbing our mountains, Kate ______________________ You can find Kate: Website: www.wildsacredjourney.com Email – kate@wildsacredjourney.com Instagram: @wildsacredjourney_kp --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/kate-powell-wsjp/support

Last weekend I made a hat. I took a pile of wool fibers and turned them into something functional and beautiful for my head. And since then, how wool fulls and felts has been popping to mind as a metaphor for relationship and community building. In the wake of the US elections, I felt drawn to share some of these musings with you and go a little deeper into why I believe these ancestral skills practices, alongside more animist and ancestral wisdom and healing traditions, make for a potent store house for our individual and collective humanity. So which relationships make up the threads in the fabric of you? Which do you not feel so full without? Which frictions and differences are actually serving to make you stronger and more resilient? Which are too much and risk tearing or damaging the cloth of you? Which are not enough to encourage the bonding needed for us all to become? Where can you turn to be reminded of your humanity? How are you passing humanity down to the ones who will come after? I'd love to hear.  Here's to being stronger together. Here's to staying human and staying alive. With love, Kate ________________________ You can find Kate: Website: www.wildsacredjourney.com Email – kate@wildsacredjourney.com Instagram: @wildsacredjourney_kp --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/kate-powell-wsjp/support

What distinguishes a pilgrimage from everyday life? Did our long-ago ancestors suffer from burnout or purpose anxiety? And, if not, why? These are two main questions I'm exploring at the one month mark of being back in Scotland after my epic ancestral pilgrimage here (and in Ireland) last year. You'll hear me muse about: what being on pilgrimage means and whether we can practice it even if we can't leave home; connecting with our ancestral tapestries through food, language, song, and story; what might be possible if we brought more wonder, magic, and vulnerability back to the small moments of life; why I suspect our ancestors didn't struggle with purpose anxiety; if worrying about purpose is actually a way of seeking validation; a basic definition of ‘integration'; … and more. Do you have ways of practicing pilgrimage (whether through travel or at home)? What is your way of being curious about the universe? I'd love to hear.  Here's to wonder and questions and the magic of aliveness, Kate ________________________ You can find Kate: Website: www.wildsacredjourney.com Email – kate@wildsacredjourney.com Instagram: @wildsacredjourney_kp --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/kate-powell-wsjp/support

Have you heard the expression: “the veil is thin”? And do you have an experience of what that means? This bonus episode is in honor of what the celtic culture would call Samhain (though plenty of cultures around the world have other celebrations at this time of year honoring the ancestors and marking this moment of the thinning veil). In this episode, you'll hear me muse on  what I think a “thin veil” means; where this particular season fits into the larger seasonal cycles and rhythms of aliveness; how working with the season might support us in burnout recovery or keep us from entering into burnout… and more. I also offer some self-inquiry prompts to perhaps hold lightly as you attend to the seasonal themes of clearing space and harvest. Although most of the episode is geared towards the Northern Hemisphere, I offer some brief thoughts for those in the Southern Hemisphere at this point of your Imbolc, too. Many blessings for our journey into the cave, Kate __________________ You can find Kate: Website: www.wildsacredjourney.com Email – kate@wildsacredjourney.com Instagram: @wildsacredjourney_kp --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/kate-powell-wsjp/support

Have you experienced the grief of wondering whether your life, whether YOU, have any purpose? Only to try thing after thing while seeking your purpose; ultimately ending up more uncertain and confused? And burned out now on top of it? You're not alone. This episode is in response to a listener who wrote to me after listening to my Episode 49 on Wellness World Pitfalls if we're not including shadow work. She was drawing some connection between what she heard in my episode and an interview she heard with Elizabeth Gilbert which touched on purpose anxiety. She found herself curious about this connection and the practice and process of integration. She wondered if I had any thoughts. Turns out, I do.  Enough that there will be more than one episode on this subject. This first one focuses on my perspective on Purpose Anxiety - what it is; why we seem to struggle with it; and a redefinition of ‘purpose' which might be helpful (and undermine the idea that you need more trainings, more approaches).  Now, it's the first time I've tried to articulate some of these thoughts out loud, so they may not be their most coherent and easily digestible yet. They're still fairly web-y.  But I have tears come twice in this episode, so there's something juicy here. Tune if you're curious: What, even, is our ‘purpose'… and why do we seem to find ourselves anxious about it? What do late-stage capitalism and empire have to do with why we find it hard to feel like we have purpose? What's the role of ‘individuality' in a “we're all one” world? Why can't I seem to find my purpose by myself? (and more) What do you think about ‘purpose' as being relational? Or what stood out to you most in this episode? I'd love to hear. Your wonderings and impressions just might spawn a whole ‘nother series of episodes! We can also engage in beautiful back and forth, oral and collective wisdom-making, together through conversations at a Wisdom Wednesday call. First Wednesdays of the month. You can find more info or register for the next one here: https://www.wildsacredjourney.com/wisdom-wednesdays With so much passion for your truest expression, Kate _______________________ You can find Kate: Website: www.wildsacredjourney.com Email – kate@wildsacredjourney.com Instagram: @wildsacredjourney_kp --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/kate-powell-wsjp/support

Holding feet to fire here. With compassion, of course... This episode is in response to many of the pitfalls I see on social media and in real life spiritual/ wellness circles. Things like: how much harm still gets perpetuated in spiritual spaces; how much burnout and long-term ineffectiveness is still prevalent; finding a space or group which seems to be doing things differently, only to realize it's the same ol' better-than, power-over shit… just with more incense and crystals; being burned by teachers and practitioners who turned out to be on an ego trip - wanting you to somehow validate them and their insecurities by being just like them; Or, being that practitioner who has a sneaking suspicion, in spite of your best intentions, you're using your clients/ students to soothe your wounds? And these outcomes seem inevitable, given the cultures that we've been raised in and the lack of elders we have to show us a different way. It's how we wield the tools of ancestral wisdom traditions and spiritual practices, just like any other tool, which determines the outcome of its use - help or hurt? This is where I see perspective and mirroring, shadow work and nervous system maintenance as being key, often missed and usually unglamorous, steps in our growth process. So tune if you're curious: What happens to our spiritual practices, our healing journey, if we're all light and no shadow work?  What happens if we do certification after certification or ceremony after ceremony and don't integrate?  What might be the outcome of prioritizing the flashy over the unglamorous maintenance work?  I believe our answers to these questions matter deeply if we want a world which looks more humane, more just, more loving, and more balanced and harmonious. These questions might help point the way back to some sort of right relationship. In fact, these questions might help point the way back to some sort of right relationship with these ancient wayfinding practices; a relationship with them where they're the compass leading us through inexperience and cultural immaturity, and out into deeper wisdom and more intactness. What stood out to you most in this episode? Did any of it leave you feeling uncomfortable? If so, I'd love to hear. And if you'd like to explore 1:1 work, I'm in the process of updating that page on my website so best right now is to email me and we can discern if we're a fit. We can also keep this conversation going on a Wisdom Wednesday call. First Wednesdays of the month. You cna find more info or register for the next one here: https://www.wildsacredjourney.com/wisdom-wednesdays With so much fierce compassion, Kate ___________________________ You can find Kate: Website: www.wildsacredjourney.com Email – kate@wildsacredjourney.com Instagram: @wildsacredjourney_kp --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/kate-powell-wsjp/support

As a shadow moves across the moon today, I offer you my perspective on shadow work - what it is and how it connects to burnout.  The term shadow work is getting thrown around a lot these days, so if you're someone who:  is curious to hear how I understand it;  struggles with feeling hijacked by younger versions of you seemingly out of the blue;  can't quite seem to bridge the gap between knowing better and doing better; wants to know how soul retrievals and codependency are linked; or feels deeply empty and can't figure out why a few days of rest don't seem to be enough to bring you back from burnout…  this is an episode you may want to tune in to. What stood out to you most in this episode? Did any of it “ping”?  If so, I'd love to hear. And if you'd like to explore 1:1 work, I'm in the process of updating that page on my website so best right now is to email me and we can discern if we're a fit. If you think you'd like to join Sanctuary, we start Sun Sep 29th and you can find more info: https://www.wildsacredjourney.com/sanctuary Blessings for this time of change, Kate __________________________ You can find Kate: Website: www.wildsacredjourney.com Email – kate@wildsacredjourney.com Instagram: @wildsacredjourney_kp --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/kate-powell-wsjp/support

Have you found yourself thinking, “I can either burn it all down or die,” yet both of those options feel too costly? While that may feel like an incredibly uncomfortable and desperate, or even hopeless, moment (I know, I've been there); I offer it's actually a pivotal and precious one. It's aliveness inviting you back. In this episode I share what I see as being the case in those moments, the nervous system and whole soulful-human context, and what I believe the best next step is so you can set yourself up to engage with the gifts of this crossroads, this realignment. What do you think? Is this accurate to your experience? Does creating space make sense? Does it leave you with more questions? If so, I'd love to hear. And if you'd like some more direct coaching or engagement with me around this topic - Wisdom Wednesdays happens the first Wednesday of each month and you're welcome there.  And in September 2024, we're enrolling our second cohort for Sanctuary - six months of spacious, low-urgency monthly gatherings. It might not move the needle on getting you more space, but it offers a place to connect in low-pressure, come-as-you-are ways… which might feel like a really significant little bit of nourishment. Find more about both of these through my website. With appreciation, Kate ________________________ You can find Kate: Website: www.wildsacredjourney.com Email – kate@wildsacredjourney.com Instagram: @wildsacredjourney_kp --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/kate-powell-wsjp/support

“Am I doing enough?” How often do you find yourself wondering that? As you look at the pain of the world, in moments of challenges in your close relationships, about your own growth journey? And how does that question leave you feeling? If you're like me, or a lot of the clients I see, or many of my friends… you probably ask this pretty often. And it probably leaves you feeling more stressed, paralyzed and overwhelmed, burnt out. But there's a beautiful invitation hidden in that question, once we get past the fear and the truth that we might not be.  So this episode is my take on how we can let that question bring us home to ourselves and back to more aliveness. I cover: what's happening in your nervous system when you find yourself asking it; how you can use the discomfort of the question for good; a simple (and maybe even kind of fun way) to stop measuring your answer with outside metrics and instead start playing and exploring; and why this might actually help you create the world you want to see - in the life you already have. Did you give the steps/ reframe a try? If so, I'd love to hear how it went. With appreciation, Kate __________________________ You can find Kate: Website: www.wildsacredjourney.com Email – kate@wildsacredjourney.com Instagram: @wildsacredjourney_kp --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/kate-powell-wsjp/support

Join Emma and Daisy as they explore the application process for upcoming (U.S. based*) writing competitions! Listen to first hand advice and experiences from Bennington, YoungArts, and Scholastic Winners ad as•ter ep•i•sode 22 /ˌad ˈa-str ep ˌ-sōd 'twen-ty /to͞o/ /n. Mosaic of tips and reflections from past Bennington Young Writers Awards, YoungArts, and Scholastic winners Joanna - Meaningful form (hermit poems!) (as a reformed STEM + Elon Musk stan) Emily - “Someone should be able to pick up your piece off the ground and know that it's yours”+ send what you love! Kate - You learn a lot from the process of applying + last-minute submitting panic + Covid YoungArts experience David - Be true to your craft and style Emma - Slightly stealing mini jam from scholarship breakfast in NYC Daisy - Contests or not, it's all about the craft notable moments: 0:25 - Meet Daisy! 2:12 - Bennington Young Writers Awards (international) 2:57 - Joanna Liu (2022-2023 Bennington YWA Winner in Creative Nonfiction) 9:50 - YoungArts Competition (US) 12:16 - Emily Pickering (2023 YoungArts Finalist in Creative Nonfiction) 15:46 - Kate Choi (2021 YoungArts Finalist in Play) 20:40 - David Chen (2022 YoungArts Merit Winner in Creative Nonfiction, 2023 Honorable Mention Winner in Creative Nonfiction) 26:28 - Scholastic Art & Writing Awards (US) 28:10 - Emma Zhang (2022 Scholastic Best in Grade and Gold Medal in Personal Essay & Memoir) 31:10 - Other contests 34:03 - Outro links Bennington Young Writers Awards (poetry, fiction, nonfiction | Nov 1) Joanna Liu, “Diagnosis of Familial, Lateral Curvatures” Ran Zhao, “How Did Li Bai Die?” (hermit crab poem) YoungArts Competition (creative nonfiction, novel, play or script, poetry, short story, spoken word | Oct 13) Emily Pickering, “Speak” (p. 71) Kate Choi, “All's in the Past Now” (p. 28) David Chen, “Two-Faced” (p. 35) David Chen, "Self" (p. 75)  Scholastic Art & Writing Awards (critical essay, dramatic script, flash fiction, journalism, humor, novel, personal essay & memoir, poetry, science fiction & fantasy, short story, writing portfolio for seniors | varies) *Some other contests* Nancy Thorp Poetry Contest Leonard L. Milberg '53 High School Poetry Prize The Princeton Ten-Minute Play Contest Columbia College Chicago Young Authors Writing Competition The Adroit Prizes for Poetry and Prose *P2 will include international comps + advice on finding writing opps!

Join us as presenter, author and farmer Kate Humble guides us through magical ancient woodland near her remote Wales home in the Wye Valley. With infectious enthusiasm and occasional impressions, she tells us about the plants and animals along our route as well as the story of her accidental career, becoming host of nation's favourite Springwatch having never wanted to be a TV presenter! Kate also talks worldwide travels, access to nature and planting trees with the Woodland Trust on her smallholding. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people, for wildlife.  Adam: Well, in early spring I went on a woodland walk in Wales with presenter, author and farmer Kate Humble, who was taking me around what promised to be some amazing woodland with her dogs. But as is increasingly common in these podcasts we of course had to begin with me getting absolutely and entirely lost.   This is an absolute disaster. Although I am bad at directions, this is not my fault *laughs* So Kate sent me a pin, she said look this is going to be hard to find my place, she sent me a map pin. I followed the map pin. Look I'm here I don't know if you can hear this you probably can't hear this. This is the gate that's locked, which is across some woodland path. So I can't get there. And of course there is no phone signal, so I'm going to have to drive all the way back to some town to find a phone signal. And I'm already late.   OK. I have managed to find a village where there is a phone signal. I've managed to call Kate and Kate *laughs* Kate has clearly got the measure of me and told me to give up and she is now going to get in her car and find me in this village and I will follow her back. In the meantime, we have passed Google map pins back and forwards, which apparently tell her that I'm sitting outside her house. But I really am nowhere near her house, so I seem to have broken Google which well, that's a first. Anyway I've got a banana here, so if she's a long time, I have dinner and I'll just wait. This will never happen. This will actually never happen.   Well we've found Kate. We've found a whirly country drive lane. Feels a bit like rally driving. It's like, I mean, I don't understand why my map wouldn't find it, but this is certainly a bit of rally driving we're doing here getting to her house. My goodness. We found her house.   OK. Well, we're here. Which I never thought I I really thought it was really lovely. The idea was nice, and next time I'm in Wales, I'll give you a call so really, it's it's better than I thought better than I thought. Anyway, so you're leading me off with your two dogs.  Kate: I am. I am. I'm leading you off into one of the most beautiful I think I mean, obviously I'm a little bit biased but it is one of the most important areas of ancient woodland in Britain. This is the Wye Valley. We're the lower Wye valley, so we are the the the the bit really where the River Wye is in its sort of last bit of its journey. It's risen in mid Wales, about 136 miles from here. I know that cause I've walked the whole route.  Adam: Really, we're not doing that today, are we?  Kate: No we're not no I promise. I promise Adam. So yes and we are basically about 5 or 6 miles from where it flows into the River Severn and then out into the Bristol Channel and the woods around here are a lovely mix of broadleaf, so we're walking through broadleaf woodland now and this is literally this is what I walk out of my front door. Aren't I lucky?  Adam: You are lucky.  Kate: I'm so lucky. So we've got a lovely mix of broadleaf woodland now and we're just coming into that time of year. Which is the time of year that makes everybody's spirits lift, because we are coming into spring, and if we actually just stop just for a second. You can hear that's a blue tit calling *imitates sound* and I mean, this isn't the perfect day for birdsong, but the birdsong was really picking up. And that's the lovely thing about living alongside woodland. So even in the winter, even when you don't think there are any birds at all, what you hear in these words is *imitates sound* that's a very, very bad impression of a great spotted woodpecker.  Adam: OK, I'm glad you. I I was guessing it might be a woodpecker, but I didn't want to.  Kate: So they start to drum around about sort of late January, they'll be drumming. And and then as the and we also have tawny owls, lots of tawny owls in these woods. We've got an owl box and we used to have an owl that we called Percy who we have no idea whether it was a boy or girl.  Adam: I was gonna say it was, a reason it was called Percy?  Kate: Don't know, just it just it looked like a Percy.  Adam: Just fancied the name. Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah.  Kate: But we have lovely tawny owls here. So, you know, at dusk and and when when I take the dogs out sort of last thing at night round about 10 o'clock 11:00 o'clock at night we walk down this track and and you stand here and you hear this wonderful and everyone thinks you know, tawny owls go toowit toowoo. They're the classic toowit toowoo owls, but actually you've got 2 owls calling, so you've got the male going *imitates noise* and then you have the females going *imitates noise*. And they're calling each other, establishing territories or going ooh I like the sound of you, there's a bit of flirting going on. So these are, as I say really it's it's just the biggest treat to live with this on my doorstep.  Adam: Right, so fantastic. You you clearly I mean, you've launched into a sort of fantastic description and detailed knowledge, but you are not a country girl by birth are you?  Kate: No, I am a country girl by birth.   Adam: Oh you are? I though you were born in London?  Kate: I am. No. Well, I was you're right, I was I was  Adam: Sorry, do I know where you were born and you don't.  Kate: Well, being born and where you were brought up is different.   Adam: Yeah, OK. OK, fair enough.  Kate: So I was, you're absolutely right, I was born in London. I was born in well, I was born in Wimbledon in fact. This is my neighbour by the way.  Adam: Right. Right. Wow. I didn't, we're in the middle of nowhere I didn't know there'd be a neighbour.  Kate: I know, but I know. But there are other people mad enough to live in these woods, and he's particularly mad.  Adam: OK. Does he mind you saying that?   Kate: Not at all. Not at all. No. He's absolutely used to it. Hello. Come and say hello to the Woodland Trust podcast.   Adam: No. OK, I'm just checking. OK. Hi, I'm Adam. Hi. Nice to see you. Yeah, I hear you're her neighbour.  Kate: This is this is this is writer Mark Mccrum and his dog Jabba. Yes. So I'm just dragging Adam down to take a look at the ponds and talking about the ponds down there.  Mark: Oh lovely. Which ponds?  Kate: The ponds down there.  Mark: Oh those ones? Yeah, very good. I might see you on the reverse cause I'm gonna go all the way round.  Kate: Oh you're gonna go round. OK, fine. Lovely.  Mark: These are lovely woods cause you never see anybody here. *all laugh*  Adam: I'm sorry.  Kate: Apart from you   Adam: I was gonna say, and me, I've ruined it.  Kate: Yeah we're the only people who see each other aren't we.  Adam: So you were telling me you are you are born in Wimbledon, but you you grew up in the country then?   Kate: Yeah. So I was I was born in Wimbledon and yes. So after about, I think I was about six months old, my mother always says that she realised that London was clearly not the place for me and   Adam: From six months? Outward bound baby were you?  Kate: Yes! She said she said there basically wasn't enough space in London for me. So so yes, so I was brought up in Berkshire, right? And I was brought up next to a farm. So I was always a sort of vicariously farming kid. Even though my parents weren't farmers and and spent my childhood looking after various animals of various descriptions, and I think the wonderful thing about being the age I am, so everyone bemoans being old, but I think I just I I am so thankful that I was born in the sixties.  Adam: Why?  Kate: Because no one had invented health and safety, climbing trees, no one had climbing frames, you climbed trees. And I think the trees enjoyed it, and so did you. And if you hadn't fallen out of quite a lot of trees by the time you were 10 and had various, you know, scars or broken bits as proof of a proper childhood, it wasn't a proper childhood.   Adam: Right. OK.   Kate: So I had a lovely proper childhood of, you know, not being plonked in front of a screen of some description or another. We're going to cut off piste a little bit and head down here.  Adam: OK, I'm is this a precursor warning that I'm about to get bumps and scrapes and?  Kate: This is a precursor warning that you might yes, you might. It's quite a steep descent.  Adam: OK just as long as my, my face is my fortune though, as long as that's safeguarded throughout this, that'll be fine. OK. Well, that's good. Yeah. Lots of leaves around. Yeah.  Kate: Of course it will be a soft landing whatever you say. Lots of leaves. One of the nice things again about broadleaf woodland. And as you can see, I'm sure your leaf identification is brilliant, but we've got a lovely mix of oak here and beech, as well as the evergreen so the hollies and lovely, lovely mosses. But yes, what you're walking on is is a sort of glorious mulchy carpet, but we have a profusion of bluebells.  Adam: Already they've come up?  Kate: Well the bluebells, the the plants themselves have come up so the leaves are up and there are one or two I'm going to show you, is it, will it be your first bluebell of the year?  Adam: It, almost, almost we we can pretend it is for dramatic purposes. Let's let's go along.  Kate: OK, OK. They are, they're just, they're just starting to come here now and and you get that lovely moment. It'll be about probably about three weeks or a month's time, slightly depending on on what the weather does, where you get the, the unfurling of the beech trees. So that glorious kind of neon green which when the light goes through you get that sort of wonderful, almost disco light effect show.  Adam: And aren't they in Welsh, aren't they called cuckoos? The Welsh translation for bluebells is cuckoo clock. I think it's because it's like it's a harbinger of spring along with the cuckoo.  Kate: Oh, I didn't know that.  Adam: Oh my God, I found something you didn't know.  Kate: You know, you know, you'll know lots, I don't know, but  Adam: No, no, let's hope that's true that's that's I'll have to go check that. Do check that before you tell anybody.   Kate: Well, I'll just blame you.  Adam: But no, I do think in Welsh the translation for Bluebell is is cuckoo clock or something like that because it is this harbinger of spring and I think that's it's a really nice I I won't even try the Welsh but in Welsh it sounds very so I mean, I thought we were going to chat about your conversion to nature and everything, but actually that's a lot of nonsense. This is this has been a constant in your life?   Kate: Well, it's been, I mean, coming to Wales, so I did live in London, you know, after I left home.  Adam: Except, I mean, you didn't choose a a nature career, did you? I mean, you you're involved now we can talk about that. But first, what was your first career?  Kate: Well, I mean. Career always seems such a grand word and that you've planned it.  Adam: Yeah. OK, so your accidental career.  Kate: So my accidental career, well, I had this idea that that I that I wanted to work in television, although again I don't really know where that came from. We're going just down here. Part of me also wanted to be a a safari guide.  Adam: Good. I can see the appeal of that.  Kate: I went to I when I was 19 having never really been abroad at all, because again, our generation didn't really go abroad as a matter of course. So I went to Africa when I was 19 and.  Adam: Sorry we're not talking on a holiday?  Kate: No it was a well it was a it was probably a rebellion.   Adam: Right. You went as far away as your your parents as you could. I'm not going out for the evening I'm popping off to Africa?  Kate: Yes, yes. I'm popping off to Africa and I don't know when I'll be back. One of those.  Adam: Right. Yeah, good. Good exit line. So where, where, where in Africa were you and what were you doing there?  Kate: So I I started in South Africa. I ended up in Egypt.  Adam: Right, just bumming around doing sort of bar work or doing something more serious?  Kate: I did I did I was a waitress for a little bit, but I was very, very bad and was sacked. I I was a model for a little bit, also very bad, very bad at that too.   Adam: Why were you so bad at that?   Kate: Because because I really don't like having my photograph taken and I really like food.  Adam: Yes, OK well I would I would have guessed I could have advised you that wasn't the career for you.  Kate: So so the two things, yeah, didn't really weren't terribly compatible to that. But I then got a job as a cook and a driver on a safari, and I drove a truck aged 19, having never really been out of Berkshire, from Cape Town, through Botswana and into Zimbabwe. And and then I hitched back to Cape Town. So I had a a real adventure. But what I what it really did for me was, having had this very sort of unconsciously wild childhood, I don't mean you know lots of parties and taking drugs I mean, a natural wild childhood, I then went to a place where the natural world was was so extraordinary and so mindblowing, and on a scale, you know, everything was was was like technicolour. You know, the birds were amazing. The the you know the the the size of the animals, the proliferation of the wildlife, the size of the landscapes, the emptiness and I think it was that journey that turned my mind to really re-look and re-examine the natural world and think it's, you know, it's extraordinary, it's it's mind blowing in every way and so even though I then came back and thought I want to have this sort of career in telly what I really wanted to do in my career in telly was work for the natural history unit.  Adam: Right. And is that what you did?  Kate: No. Not initially anyway.  Adam: OK, but you have done, I mean you've done nature programmes, lots of nature programmes. What did you first start doing?  Kate: We're going down here. I have. So I first started sweeping streets in the East End.  Adam: In EastEnders?  Kate: No, in the East End, no. I was a runner so I basically got jobs wherever I could get jobs and I got a job on a commercial that happened to be shooting in the East End and they needed the streets swept and so that was one of my jobs. But had no plans to be on the telly that that really did happen by mistake.  Adam: I think you know my first job in telly. I don't know if you remember That's Life with Esther Rantzen. Do you remember they she always had rude, funny vegetables?   Kate: I do, yes  Adam: That was my job to find them, yeah so only only marginally above the street sweeping.   Kate: Oh my goodness!  Adam: So you got how did you get picked there? I mean, we gotta get back to the natural world. But you've had such such a fantastic life. So I mean, I think people will be fascinated to know you have not much of even a vague plan about what you're doing. You're fumbling about a bit.  Kate: None, yeah. Living in a squat. Eating crisps.  Adam: So yeah, right. So not many models will be will be living like that and eating crisps, I get that You're sweeping streets as your way into telly, all of a sudden you're on telly. How did that happen, was that more of a plan or did someone just turn around and go, hey, you, street sweeper, you'll do?  Kate: No, it wasn't. So I had I had graduated from street sweeper, so it took about probably four four or five years I have become by now a sort of senior researcher. And I got a job at the BBC. My first job at the BBC on a programme called Animal Hospital.  Adam: Right. Yes. And you were still a researcher there or presenter?  Kate: Yeah, as a researcher. And and I think the reason that I got the job was actually my childhood. Because I think it was the first series, in fact, I think the only series that they did of Animal Hospital in a rural practice. So we went to a practice that didn't just do small animals, pets type animals, but also bigger animals like farm animals and horses and I think the only reason I got the job was that I was the only person they interviewed who knew what to do with something bigger than a hamster.   Adam: Right ok great.  Kate: And I had my own wellies.  Adam: Oh good. Always important for a career in telly, your own wellies, see these are the secrets people wanna know. Good. So you've got your wellies?   Kate: Always really, really important. They are. So I got that job I got that researcher job. And at the end of it, the BBC do this appraisal thing. And they said we thought you were alright, you did OK, will you come back and do the next series and I said I'd absolutely love to. I'd really loved it, absolutely loved it. Can we just pause here a minute because this,  Adam: A sea of wild garlic?  Kate: No, these are bluebells.  Adam: These are bluebells? Oh, sorry. Look at the ignorance here.  Kate: These are bluebells. Well, those white flowers let me show you these because they're beautiful.  Adam: I thought like I I think that's what I thought was wild garlic shows you *unintelligible* OK, we've got a proper safari expert.  Kate: No. So look, look, look, look, look, look, look, look, look, first bluebell starting to unfurl except my dog's just walked all over it. Come on you're not supposed to walk on there.  Adam: So this is, all of this is bluebells?  Kate: So all of this will be bluebells and in about 3 weeks time you get this absolutely, it's so blue it's like the colour actually detaches itself from the flowers and floats above it in this sort of glorious mist, it's beautiful. But this these flowers here I love. And these are these are one of the flowers along with celandines which are the kind of waxy yellow flowers that people will see in woodlands and even in their gardens at this time of year, these are wood anemones. And they are lovely, very delicate white flowers with these slightly sort of hand-like leaves and the lovely thing about these, they're not looking at their best at the moment because it's been quite a wet day. But when the sun's out, they open to the sun like these brilliant white stars. And sometimes there are areas around here where you'll see carpets of wood anemones and they're one of the first I've seen these as early as January, although not this year because we had lots of frosts.  Adam: It's funny you, you, you, you use the word magical I'm just looking at this tree with covered in moss and everything, there is something magical about these sorts of places, a sort of sense of, sense of, a Tolkien type moment isnt there?.  Kate: Absolutely. Absolutely. I've I I don't think it is a coincidence that lots of fairytales are set in woodlands because there is something otherworldly about them. We're going to head keep heading down just so that you have a really good climb on the way up.  Adam: Yeah, I was gonna say I'm fine going down, I'm assuming you're sending a car to pick me up? It's well a little, a little Uber will just I'm sure,   Kate: Nice try, Adam! Lots of Ubers around here. Look, look, look.   Adam: Oh look now that is OK that's a proper bluebell.  Kate: That is a, a, a bluebell that's a proper bluebell.  Adam: Yeah, that is my first proper bluebell of the year.  Kate: And you can see all the others are just starting to come.  Adam: And that's and it is lovely because clearly so few people come here that's the problem often with bluebells is when people trample all over them. And we've got just one clean path down here and it's completely undisturbed for as far as the eye can see. So yes, we OK, we we did a little pit stop for bluebells. We're back on and the what was the programme, animal?  Kate: Animal Animal Hospital.  Adam: Animal Hospital. So they wanted you back as a researcher. I'm interested in the jump from behind the screen to on screen.  Kate: So so they basically said lovely we'll see you in four months and I said oh well, I've got a landlord and rent to pay, I can't not work for four months. I'm going to have to get another job and it may mean that I'm not available. And they said ohh well, maybe we can find you something else within the BBC as a stopgap. And I had also at that point, so this is the mid 90s now, started writing. I was writing travel. And I'd spent at the the a end of a a, the second Africa trip that I did between 94 and 95, I'd spent the last two months of that in Madagascar.  Adam: Right.  Kate: Madagascar was a place that I was obsessed with because of its wildlife because it has unique flora and fauna. I came back and got an article commissioned to write about it, and it was the first,  Adam: Your first commission?  Kate: Yes, my first commission and my first article, and it was in a broad a broadsheet newspaper, and I was very excited and very proud about that. And so when I was asked by the series producer of the BBC Holiday programme, whether I would consider coming to work for them because I was a travel writer,  Adam: Right OK, yeah, you're now a travel writer because of your one article.  Kate: I am I am now a I am now a travel writer on the strength of one of one article.  Adam: Whoa oh Kate, I'm so glad you were the first person to sort of go over *Kate laughs* That was before me I just want that on record.   Kate: Yeah.   Adam: OK so I haven't gone over yet.   Kate: You haven't got over yet.   Adam: OK. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah.  Kate: Yes. So I got a job on the BBC Holiday programme. Anyway the next day I got called into the big boss's office. And I assumed that my short lived career at the BBC Holiday programme was about to be ended because I wasn't quite sure why, but perhaps because I hadn't been taking the producers guidelines as seriously as I might and that also I had smoked on a fire escape, which probably wasn't a good idea. And instead I was asked to do a screen test and I assumed that this was the sort of common test that the Holiday programme did and I tried to say I really don't want to be a presenter thank you, I love doing, I love making the programmes, I love the research, I love talking to people, I love putting things together. I'm quite, I like logistics. I'm quite, you know, I like all that stuff I don't want to be a presenter. And they went well do a do a screen test. So at this point I just thought I've just got to get out of this office because I feel very embarrassed by the whole situation. So I will just nod smile say yes, do it, it'll be a disaster, and then everything can go back to normal. So that's what I did. Three weeks later, the boss came into the office,  Adam: Sorry, we have to stop. This is a story that's gonna last all day, cause I keep stopping because your dog is posing or it was posing beautifully by this river.  Kate: Well, so this river is an important, one of the sort of parallel streams that run into the River Wye for this is the Angidy, we are in the Angidy Valley, surrounded by amazing woodland on both sides, it's a very steep sided valley. This river is particularly good for dippers, which are those lovely chocolate brown and white birds, they look like little waiters.  Adam: Right *laughs*  Kate: And they and they, they're called dippers because that's exactly what they do. So we'll keep an eye out because we might see some, but they'll sit on a stone like that exposed stone within the waterfall there and they will jump into the water and literally completely submerge. They'll disappear completely and they're looking for things like caddisfly larva, which is what they feed on, and then they'll bob up and come back up and they're they're just these wonderful, perky, very smart little birds.  Adam: Brilliant, OK.  Kate: They're the only British songbird that is also a water bird.  Adam: Wow, OK, good. All right.   Kate: There you are, little bit of, little bit of,  Adam: No, I like these these these sorts of diversions we take, it's it's almost like doing a stand up routine, so we're gonna go gonna go back to the story now. So you thought everybody in the world gets a screen test. So I'm just doing this and then they'll leave me alone.  Kate: Yes, yes. And and then the boss came into the office about 3 weeks later. And she said, can you go to France tomorrow? And I said yes, of course, assuming that they needed somebody to carry the heavy stuff. Bhcause carrying heavy stuff is the other thing that I am good at. I can whistle very loudly and I can carry very heavy things and those are really the only two things that I can offer the world.  Adam: OK, I I you, you have set yourself up for a big whistle at the end, so we'll we'll wait for that then let's hold out.  Kate: It it will blow your ears well, that's all I'm saying. So she said, we want you to present a film on a barge in Normandy, could you please do something about my hair, she said. My own hair.  Adam: I see she didn't ask you to be a hairdresser? Also could you cut my hair?  Kate: Yes could you cut my hair *laughs*. No, could you do something about your hair, she said. I thought she's been talking to my mum, who constantly despairs of my lack of my lack of grooming.  Adam: Right, also right at this point of hair hair disasters, we have to pause because we've come across as you may hear an extraordinary small waterfall, it's a weir, really, isn't it?   Kate: It is really.  Adam: I'm gonna take another photo of this before we get back to the life and misadventures of Kate Humble. So I'm just gonna take a photo. You'll find that, no doubt on one of our Twitter feeds. Oh, I know beautiful, oh no the dogs disappeared, the dog doesn't like posing for me. But all right, so now, you're off to France. You need a haircut and,  Kate: So I'm off to France. I need I need I need to basically smarten myself up. Off I went to France and presented my first film.  Adam: Right. And that was, I mean, we could talk about this forever, but that was the beginning of that was the beginning of this, the story. OK, well, amazing.  Kate: Yes. My first job for the natural history unit came in 2000. And I was asked to do a programme, which was a sort of, was made in response to Blue Planet. So the very first series of the Blue Planet, which I think everybody watched with their mouths open because we had never seen the oceans in that way before, particularly the deep ocean. And there was a phrase used which I have used many, many times since, which was that more people have been to the moon than there have been to the deep ocean. And people were fascinated by these, they were they were creatures that looked like they might have been designed for Star Wars. They were so extraordinary.  Adam: These sort of angler fish which have which have this light don't they.  Kate: That sort of thing, and these these, you know, these astonishing, you know, plankton with flashing lights, there were Dumbo octopus with, you know, little octopus with these sort of literally did look like Dumbo the elephant, you know, deep water sharks that people had never seen before that were really slow moving and and, you know astonishingly well-adapted to live at depths and in in at water pressure that no one thought anything could exist in and come on dogs we're gonna keep, do you wanna have a,  Adam: And so yours was a response, in what way?   Kate: So we did a live,  Adam: The dogs keep looking at me like they want me to throw something for them is that what's going on?  Kate: They do, and I'm going to just try and find a, here let's try let's try this, here we are.  Adam: Look, they're very, oh you've thrown it into the river?   Kate: Go on, in you go.  Adam: Oh, look at that go!  Kate: Come on Teg, do you wanna go in as well? Here you are. This one's going to sink, go on. Ready? Go. Good girl. Where's it gone? Teggy, it's just there. That's it. Well done, well done, dogs.  Adam: Oh they like that.  Kate: Well, I can't go and get it, you have to bring it here, that's the deal with sticks *laughs* So we did a live programme from a boat in Monterey Bay. I made some films to play into that live show. So I went to the Cayman Islands, which is a rotten thing to ask anybody to do, can you imagine?  Adam: Terrible, terrible. You wanted to be back in the East End really.  Kate: I did really, sweeping streets and instead there I was, doing films about coral reefs and this is the one of, this is the wonderful thing about the natural history unit or just about making films with animals is the lengths that you have to go to to be able to capture the natural world in all its wonder. And so I was asked to go and film a shark called a six gill shark that lives very deep and only about 10 people in the world had ever seen. And I was sent to go and find this creature. You know, I can't I can't even now I can't really believe that I was asked to do that.   Adam: And did you find it?  Kate: Eventually. We had to do two, we did one trip we failed to find it,   Adam: How how long was that?  Kate: So that was, we did 6 dives. It was an amazing trip. We didn't get the shark on the first trip. We went back for another trip. We didn't get it. We didn't get it. We finally got it and it was incredible. Incredible moment. And that was the first job that I did for the natural history unit and there was then somebody who came up with the idea of doing British wildlife life live at kind of springtime, like kind of now.   Adam: And this was Springwatch was it?  Kate: This was the precursor to Springwatch.   Adam: Oh I didn't know there was one.  Kate: There were two!  Adam: What were they called?  Kate: So the first one was called Wild In Your Garden. So I'm just going to put the dogs on a lead here. Hold on, poppet. Just hold on my poppet. That's it. We've got to take Adam up the hill now. So yes, so the first one was called Wild In Your Garden and it was Bill Oddie and Simon King and me. And we did two shows a night, from gardens in Bristol, and it sort of worked as an idea.  Adam: Right. OK.  Kate: It worked well enough or it wasn't so much of a disaster that there wasn't a thought of let's try it slightly differently, maybe on a farm instead of in the garden, and we went to this wonderful organic farm in Devon and basically made camp for three weeks. And made a series called Britain Goes Wild. And Britain went a tiny bit wild. And so the following year we thought, well, we'll do it again, but maybe we'll just call it something different.  Adam: Right.  Kate: And someone came up with the idea of calling it spring watch and everyone said, and it always went out at the same time as it does now, sort of end of May and people go, it's not really spring though is it? And we're like, well spring enough, still spring things happening and Springwatch seemed to capture everybody's imaginations and and I presented that for 10 years.  Adam: And you presented that for how many, how many years?  Kate: Ten.  Adam: Blimey! That's a long,  Kate: Yeah, I know. I've just grown old on telly and then Autumnwatch came into being and then Winterwatch and I did Seawatch. So I did a series about British Britain's seas and and marine life. Yeah. So I did eventually get my wish of working for the natural history unit.  Adam: Oh, that's very good. The fairy godmother in the form of the BBC descended and granted your wish. And now from all of those adventures abroad and on TV and everything you then said, I'm gonna move to this really quite, there's another car coming, quite quite remote parts of Wales. Why that?  Kate: We're going to head up here. Hold on, dogs. There we are.  Adam: Oh there's some steps. Hallelujah.  Kate: OK, only for this little bit.  Adam: Look, stop stop taking away the hope.  Kate: *laughs* So so I we moved,  Adam: Yes so you you picked up sticks and then moved to Wales. Perhaps it's not such a big move because the natural world has seemed to be always the centre of things for you. So but why Wales in particular?  Kate: Well, that is a curious question. I had no connection with Wales as far as I was aware. I honestly honestly can't tell you why I felt this extraordinary pull to live here. But it really was it was like a magnetic pull. There is actually a a Welsh word and I'm not sure I'm really allowed to use it in my context, but I can't think of a better word to use for the feeling that I had. And it's hiraeth and is a word that it's sort of more than home sickness. It's like a deep longing for the place that you belong. A yearning, a pit of the stomach emptiness for your home.  Adam: You felt this was a spiritual home, did you?   Kate: I don't know I really don't know, Adam. I, as I say I just had this extraordinary pull to live here. And yeah, I would look at the, there are these old fashioned things called maps, and I would look at the A to Z of Great Britain. And you know, there I was in the South East and if you look at a thing called a map,  Adam: Yes, sorry is this a point about me getting lost on the way to you.   Kate: No no not even remotely. No, it's the fact that no one uses them anymore, and yet, they're the greatest treasures we have. So if you look at a map, the South East of England is just this chaos of colour and roads and towns and names. And it's just, you know, there's not a square millimetre that hasn't got a name in it or something in. The further west you go, the browner the map becomes, and when you go over the border into Wales, it's mainly brown and green and it's got beautiful lyrical names like Abergavenny and and it's got mountains and mountains, when you've been brought up in Berkshire mountains are the height of exoticism. To live in a in a country that had mountains all of its own just struck me as being remarkable. I still, 15 years on, find it remarkable that I can I can get up at breakfast, not go terribly far, and climb a bona fide mountain. I love that. And that's what I love about Wales.  Adam: And and you've done more than, I mean, people might feel that and move to a beautiful part of the country and live there and more or less carry on with their ordinary life. But you've not done that. I mean, you're not just you don't just go for walks, the natural world is something you've created a a new career out of as well. Is that fair?  Kate: I wouldn't call it a career.  Adam: OK but you're very much well, but you make money from it and it fills your days.   Kate: Well, no, no, I don't think I don't know I don't I don't think that's I don't think that's true at all. I think you know I my working life is peculiar. I've I still am involved making television programmes, some of which involve the natural world. I still write, some of that's about the natural world, but not all of it. The natural world for me is nothing to do with making a living. Making a living. But it is about living. And it was one of the things that I was acutely aware of when I lived in London was I felt cut off from the seasons. This year you know, I know I can tell you that I didn't hear a skylark until the middle of March last year it was Valentine's Day. I can tell you that because that's what I'm experiencing. And I love feeling that instead of the natural world being something I watch on the television or I read about in a book that I am able to be part of it. And that's one of the big problems I think that we face now with trying to engage people with the importance of things like biodiversity, species loss, habitat loss. None of those things sound very sexy, and none of those things appear to matter to us because we as a species so weirdly and inexplicably view ourselves as a species separate from the natural world and the natural world has become something that we just watch for our entertainment. But we are just another mammal in this amazingly complex, beautiful, brilliant web that is the biodiversity web, where everything fits in and everything works together, and one thing feeds another thing and you know, until we feel properly part of that, immersed in it and and wrapped up in it, why are we ever going to worry about the fact that it is now a biodiversity net that's full of holes, and those holes mean that the net becomes less and less effective and the less effective that net becomes, the more it affects us, but we see ourselves as somehow immune from that process and we're not. And what I love about living here, what I love about walking in this area every day, twice a day, is the fact that I feel that I can, I'm I'm more in tune with our natural world and that is sadly, it shouldn't feel a it shouldn't be a privilege, but it is.  Adam: And do you feel, I mean, you're you feel passionate about it. Do you feel evangelical about it?  Kate: Yes.   Adam: So what do you, do you have a prescription to help to bring others on side?  Kate: I wish it didn't, I wish you didn't have to ask me that question. I wish it didn't have to be an on side.  Adam: Do you do you feel that's an unfair question? Or do you think there's?  Kate: No, I don't. I think it's a very fair question because lots of people don't feel or don't perhaps don't experience it experience the advantages of the natural world, or they haven't been they haven't been given the opportunities to properly understand the impact that it can have on us and all those impacts are positive. I mean, there's loads of science. And you know, it was talked about endlessly during the pandemic about how green spaces are good for our mental health, blue spaces are good for our mental health, being outdoors, being in nature, listening to birdsong, sing plants grow, all those things are good for us. But we've got to a place where we've been so divorced from it, where we look for our pleasures in shopping malls and online and and we forget that actually all we need is right here. And, you know, it's a hard sell for some to to somebody who's never experienced this, who hasn't had the privileges I've undoubtedly had, you know who have not grown up in the countryside, who find it fearful or boring or inexplicable, don't understand where they fit in.  Adam: And I think one of the perhaps growing debates, I think or interesting ones anyway for me is is the balance between trying to either scare people or make them aware of the environmental challenges and potential for disaster. And then so to sort of go engage with the subject it's really it's really newsworthy, it's it's it's imperative people do things and actually turning people off going well we're we're all going to literally burn, enjoy the party whilst it lasts. So what what do you feel about that?  Kate: Yeah, yeah. I mean, all all, all you have to do, all you have to do is watch Don't Look Up. Have you seen that film?   Adam: Yes.  Kate: And and and that, you know, absolutely embodies what you have just said.  Adam: So what do you think about that? Because I think there's a balance between going, offering hope, the power or audacity of hope is a phrase one hears as opposed to the sort of potential to frighten people into action. Actually the opposite, don't frighten them into action. Offer them hope of change. And I wonder where you feel that, if we've got that balance right, or whether,  Kate: No, we haven't got it right and I, but I don't know what the balance is because I think there's a real, I think that a lot of programmes that are made about natural history now have become so glossy and so beautiful and and so almost otherworldly that they don't actually reflect the reality of the natural world. And a lot of them again show the natural world without the context of people. And of course, that's sort of how we want to see it, we don't want people muddying those pictures. We don't want, as you say, the kind of the awful stories of the litter and the, you know, the the, the, the negative impact that human have humans have had on the natural environment. So we kind of don't want to see it, but equally if we don't see it, we don't engage with it and we kind of can watch one of those documentaries and even if David Attenborough is telling you that, you know, this is a habitat that's in peril or this is the last animal of its type that you will ever see, you don't really take that in because you're looking at these really stunning pictures and you think it's kind of OK. But I don't know what the answer is because I also know that as you say, if all you peddle is hopelessness and helplessness, no one's going to engage, they're going to stick their heads in the sand and just hope that it all goes away and pass it on to the next generation. So somehow we as communicators need to find a way that really does cut through. That really does make people feel, genuinely feel part of the natural world, that it isn't just another thing. I had the great joy of interviewing Tim Peake not that long ago, and I was interviewing him for a book that I'm writing about the concept of home. And I thought he would have, of anybody, a really unique idea of home having not just left home but left the planet. And he told me that he did a spacewalk, he was out in space for over four hours, and he said the blackness is like a blackness you cannot imagine. But he said, you know, you see Mars and Jupiter and Venus and you see Earth. And he said, when you're there, amongst the planets in that way you see that Earth is, as far as anyone's experience, and any telescope has been able to tell us, unique. You look at it and he said there it is, this colour, this blue and green planet, whereas everything else is, you know silver and and ghostly, ours is a living planet and he said he had this, he had this sort of feeling when he was there looking at Earth and imagining somebody, some other being coming up and tapping him on the shoulder and saying hey, hi,  who are you? I'm Tim. And he'd say oh hello so where are you from then? And Tim said I felt this enormous swell of pride to be able to point to our planet and say I'm from that planet there. I'm from Earth. I'm an earthling and I thought if all of us had that experience, could understand what it was like, how special our planet is in a universe that is infinite as far as we know and that we have, we have no idea what's out there, but what we do know at the moment is that our planet is unique and I think we would treasure it that much more and have moments like this of just standing amongst the trees and midges coming out, the drizzle, the mud and go, this is our home, this is where we live. It's really special. Aren't we lucky?  Adam: You're taking me uphill again aren't you.  Kate: I am taking uphill, but you've done the worst bit and you and and actually you marched. I was impressed!  Adam: Oh OK good. You know I'll fall apart after, I'm just doing it so I don't embarrass myself too badly.  Kate: *laughs* I'm afraid it is going to get very, very muddy, so you're going to have wet socks, mud up to your knees, you know, that's why I spend six months of the year in wellies.  Adam: Right OK. But you know, that is the privilege of being an earthling, isn't it?   Kate: It is it is.  Adam: So you've been you've got involved with the Woodland Trust.  Kate: I've been involved with the Woodland Trust for quite a long time, but it really started when we took on a farm near here.  Adam: What's this an arable farm?  Kate: No, it was a small council farm. It belonged to the council and people are not really aware that there are such a thing.   Adam: I've never heard this one.  Kate: No, but there used to be about 16,000 council farms throughout Britain and they were set up as part of the 1906 Smallholdings and Allotments Act and they were there, low rent, small areas, usually 30, 40 acres that sort of size and they would be available to rent for farmers who for whatever reason, didn't have a farm of their own. And over the years, as farming practices have changed as economic models have driven farmers to need to to produce things on a bigger scale, small farms have been basically relegated to either hobby farms or they've been broken up and sold to land that's been added to bigger farms. So we've lost an enormous number of these small farms and with them an enormous opportunity for people with farming skills to stay on the land and produce as food. And that's what was going to happen to this farm. And for whatever reason, I just felt this was not the thing to do and to cut a very, very, very long story short, we ended up taking over the farm and setting up a rural skills centre o prove that a small farm, ours is just over 100 acres, could still be viable. It supports itself and that's really important. But one of the things that we wanted to do, we were really interested to do when we took it over was to add more trees. It's it's got some wonderful ancient trees. There's an oak tree on the farm that we call Old Man Oak, as did the tenants before us. They introduced us to him and we think he's about 600 years old. And but we wanted to plant more trees. But we had this conundrum of how do we increase the tree cover on the farm without taking away the pasture because obviously we needed the pasture for the livestock and it was the Woodland Trust that helped us with that conundrum. So they looked, together we walked round the farm and we identified either areas where there were small copses or where there was a bit of a hedge. So what we did with the Woodland Trust's advice and input was to put in trees as shelter breaks, so not actually impinging on the pasture, just or very much, but adding a kind of a thicker bit of hedge if you like, or making a copse a little bit bigger and in that way we've planted over 1,000 trees on the farm in the last decade that we've had it. And then at home we have a four acre small holding and and so at the beginning of last year I started thinking maybe it's an age thing, you start thinking about legacy and when you when you take over a piece of land, what you start to understand actually very quickly is that you will never own it, that you are simply the caretaker of it for the time that you are around. And I think we've got cleverer now. Our knowledge has become greater. We understand that just planting trees isn't the answer. We need to think about we need to think of landscape as a mosaic and so what we wanted to do was to create a little mosaic. Plant trees, create water or make a space for water, make sure that there was going to be areas that had glade that was good for insects, that was good for wild flowers. And so I talked to the Woodland Trust and said, are you going to be into this idea, because it's not just planting trees and they went, that's exactly what we're into. That's exactly what we want to do. We want to create habitat. It's not about blanketing a landscape with trees. It's about planting the right trees in the right places at the right density to create something that you know, in a generation's time will have real lasting value, and that's what's been so wonderful about working with, you know, an organisation like that that sees big picture, sees longevity as as an advantage rather than as a disadvantage. And and that's what's been so lovely is that, you know, I can go to them and say so I've got this plan. I mean, I'm not even going to be alive to see it kind of come to fruition but do you care? And they went, we don't care, do you care? No. Let's do it. And that's wonderful.  Adam: Wonderful. OK sorry, this is a bit, this is the bit where I'm going ohh well, I'm swimming effectively swimming now.  Kate: Sorry. This is a very wet bit.  Adam: Hold on a second. OK. Right. That's a very Norman Wisdom walk I seem to have. OK. Yeah. OK, so ohh sorry, hold on.  Kate: It gets, that's the that's the wettest bit now, now we're now we're more or less home and dry.  Adam: Oh well you know what we we might be home, but we are not dry. That would be inaccurate at this point. So well, that's a neat story to bring us back to home with isn't it. So you know things are looking good. It's all hopeful. A a long journey and a long one ahead, you know, not just for you, but for that natural world you're creating.  Kate: Well, I hope that you know the the I I think going back to to what you said about how we can, we can help us all feel that we are actually, you know part and parcel of the natural world rather than observers of it or visitors of it and things like planting trees or being aware of the seasonal joys of the bluebells coming through, or, you know the leaf fall in the autumn and the colour, all those things if if i you know if we can build that awareness that brings with it huge joy and reward, then maybe we'll start to cut through again and people will start to feel more like the natural world is their world and not just another part of the planet that they live on.  Adam: Well having arrived back at Kate's home, let me just say there are lots more woodland walk podcasts for you to enjoy wherever you get your podcasts from. And indeed, if you want to find an actual wood near you well, you can go to the Woodland Trust website www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. Until next time, happy wandering.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you. 

Kate Berkey is a writer, speaker, and missionary living on the north side of Chicago where she works with refugees and immigrants with Devon Oasis Ministry. Today, Kate shares about doubting her faith in high school, the unique way God called her to Thailand, and finding a ministry that fits her heart for the marginalized. She also shares how learning from other cultures can help bring much needed humility especially when the family with a foreign culture lives right next door. Kate's story reminds us that when we honor the imago dei in our fellow humans, we become the Father's ambassadors of friendship. Listen to Kate's story in your favorite podcast app now! Stories Kate shared: Growing up in a Christian family in rural Indiana Deciding to figure out why she believed in Jesus as a high schooler Wrestling with doubts about whether to trust the Bible Her mentor Kristy Mikel who helped her through wrestling with faith Going to Taylor University and looking to the future Experiencing the kindness of God Quitting her job and becoming a missionary to Thailand The moment God directed her to Braverly Raising money to become a missionary Creating resources for women in Thailand Deciding to publish their book in the United States as well Experiencing the micro-culture shocks that happen in new cultures Learning about herself through interaction with another culture Humility and honor in other cultures Great quotes from Kate: You can't underestimate the value of dignity and the image of God in people. The number one need of refugees is friendship. Your courage matters to the Lord. Resources we mentioned: Kate's website A Place Called Braverly: Daring to Live Courageously, Dream Boldly and Influence Bravery by Kate Berkey and Kristy Mikel Devon Oasis Ministry Related episodes: Ty Wyss and the Kindness of God Amy Fritz and the Community of the Broken Karen Gonzales and Beyond Welcome The post Kate Berkey and the Humility of Honor appeared first on Eric Nevins.

“My most ambitious goal right now is to grow and scale Loba into a company that helps make caring for health both a ritual and a pleasure,” explains Kate Bouchard, Founder of Loba. With a unique mix of creativity and business savvy, Kate's vision is to change how we approach wellness. Through founding Loba, a smart pill organizer app, Kate can share her message of turning health into cherished daily rituals.When Kate realized she had hormonal imbalances that required supplements, she struggled with the limitations of physical pill organizers. This led her to start Loba, a pill organizer app that alerts you when to take your supplements through physical cues. By also creating aesthetically pleasing pill organizers, Kate reminds listeners that taking care of yourself is a loving act and nothing to be ashamed of.Tune into this week's episode of Self-Love for Breakfast for an inspiring conversation on the health journey and how to bring your ideas to fruition. Learn more about celebratory rituals, Kate's inspiration for Loba, and how you can reinvent yourself multiple times in life.Quotes• “My most ambitious goal right now is to grow and scale Loba into a company that helps make caring for health both a ritual and a pleasure.” (1:26-1:36) Kate)• “Just going from like the idea to creation is huge. And so many people have so many great ideas for businesses or products or designs are whatever it is, and it stays as an idea. Just bringing something to fruition in itself is badass as hell.” (3:45-4:02) Kate)• “I really want to create a positive sentiment around taking your pills and supplements for proactive better health and not something that feels like something to be ashamed of.” (24:26-24:32) Kate)• “Life is long enough that you can reinvent yourself multiple times.” (28:01-28:05) Kate)• “You'll never be fully ready. You're never going to get everything right now. And if you wait until you think you have everything perfectly lined up, you'll never get it done.” (31:47-31:59) Kate)Connect with Kate Bouchard:https://shoploba.comwww.instagram.com/shop.lobawww.pinterest.ca/shoploba/www.facebook.com/LobaPillOrganizersConnect with Chrystal:http://chrystalrose.com/https://www.selflovebreakfastclub.com/https://www.instagram.com/xtalrose/https://www.instagram.com/selfloveforbreakfastclub/To join our Self Love Breakfast Club text community, text SLBC to 704-270-6577.Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm 

“My most ambitious goal right now is to grow and scale Loba into a company that helps make caring for health both a ritual and a pleasure,” explains Kate Bouchard, Founder of Loba. With a unique mix of creativity and business savvy, Kate's vision is to change how we approach wellness. Through founding Loba, a smart pill organizer app, Kate can share her message of turning health into cherished daily rituals.When Kate realized she had hormonal imbalances that required supplements, she struggled with the limitations of physical pill organizers. This led her to start Loba, a pill organizer app that alerts you when to take your supplements through physical cues. By also creating aesthetically pleasing pill organizers, Kate reminds listeners that taking care of yourself is a loving act and nothing to be ashamed of.Tune into this week's episode of Self-Love for Breakfast for an inspiring conversation on the health journey and how to bring your ideas to fruition. Learn more about celebratory rituals, Kate's inspiration for Loba, and how you can reinvent yourself multiple times in life.Quotes• “My most ambitious goal right now is to grow and scale Loba into a company that helps make caring for health both a ritual and a pleasure.” (1:26-1:36) Kate)• “Just going from like the idea to creation is huge. And so many people have so many great ideas for businesses or products or designs are whatever it is, and it stays as an idea. Just bringing something to fruition in itself is badass as hell.” (3:45-4:02) Kate)• “I really want to create a positive sentiment around taking your pills and supplements for proactive better health and not something that feels like something to be ashamed of.” (24:26-24:32) Kate)• “Life is long enough that you can reinvent yourself multiple times.” (28:01-28:05) Kate)• “You'll never be fully ready. You're never going to get everything right now. And if you wait until you think you have everything perfectly lined up, you'll never get it done.” (31:47-31:59) Kate)Connect with Kate Bouchard:https://shoploba.comwww.instagram.com/shop.lobawww.pinterest.ca/shoploba/www.facebook.com/LobaPillOrganizersConnect with Chrystal:http://chrystalrose.com/https://www.selflovebreakfastclub.com/https://www.instagram.com/xtalrose/https://www.instagram.com/selfloveforbreakfastclub/To join our Self Love Breakfast Club text community, text SLBC to 704-270-6577.Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm Get Embodied with me & our community this month and BREATHE every day! Win prizes and go into 2024 chill AF. Signup here for free when you use code BADDIE: Breathworkbestie.com

“My most ambitious goal right now is to grow and scale Loba into a company that helps make caring for health both a ritual and a pleasure,” explains Kate Bouchard, Founder of Loba. With a unique mix of creativity and business savvy, Kate's vision is to change how we approach wellness. Through founding Loba, a smart pill organizer app, Kate can share her message of turning health into cherished daily rituals.When Kate realized she had hormonal imbalances that required supplements, she struggled with the limitations of physical pill organizers. This led her to start Loba, a pill organizer app that alerts you when to take your supplements through physical cues. By also creating aesthetically pleasing pill organizers, Kate reminds listeners that taking care of yourself is a loving act and nothing to be ashamed of.Tune into this week's episode of Self-Love for Breakfast for an inspiring conversation on the health journey and how to bring your ideas to fruition. Learn more about celebratory rituals, Kate's inspiration for Loba, and how you can reinvent yourself multiple times in life.Quotes• “My most ambitious goal right now is to grow and scale Loba into a company that helps make caring for health both a ritual and a pleasure.” (1:26-1:36) Kate)• “Just going from like the idea to creation is huge. And so many people have so many great ideas for businesses or products or designs are whatever it is, and it stays as an idea. Just bringing something to fruition in itself is badass as hell.” (3:45-4:02) Kate)• “I really want to create a positive sentiment around taking your pills and supplements for proactive better health and not something that feels like something to be ashamed of.” (24:26-24:32) Kate)• “Life is long enough that you can reinvent yourself multiple times.” (28:01-28:05) Kate)• “You'll never be fully ready. You're never going to get everything right now. And if you wait until you think you have everything perfectly lined up, you'll never get it done.” (31:47-31:59) Kate)Connect with Kate Bouchard:https://shoploba.comwww.instagram.com/shop.lobawww.pinterest.ca/shoploba/www.facebook.com/LobaPillOrganizersConnect with Chrystal:http://chrystalrose.com/https://www.selflovebreakfastclub.com/https://www.instagram.com/xtalrose/https://www.instagram.com/selfloveforbreakfastclub/To join our Self Love Breakfast Club text community, text SLBC to 704-270-6577.Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm 

This week, we're exploring why it behooves businesses and business leaders to look at their users, consumers, customers, etc., as humans first. Slightly shifting perspective to consider the humanity behind purchasing decisions can lead to greater loyalty, more frequent use, and genuinely happier users, all of which add up to more business success and better outcomes for the world. Together with my guests, we discuss how human-centric decisions apply to various industries and how you can build better relationships that lead to success for all of humanity. Guests this week include Charlie Cole, Neil Redding, Dr. Rumman Chowdhury, Ana Milicevic, Cathy Hackl, Marcus Whitney, and David Ryan Polgar. The Tech Humanist Show is a multi-media-format program exploring how data and technology shape the human experience. Hosted by Kate O'Neill. Produced and edited by Chloe Skye, with research by Ashley Robinson and Erin Daugherty at Interrobang and input from Elizabeth Marshall. To watch full interviews with past and future guests, or for updates on what Kate O'Neill is doing next, subscribe to The Tech Humanist Show hosted by Kate O'Neill channel on YouTube, or head to KOInsights.com. Full Transcript Kate O'Neill: When you buy something, you're a customer. But — to paraphrase a line from the movie Notting Hill — you're also just a person, standing in front of a business, asking it to treat you like a human being. Over the last two decades plus working in technology, I've often held job titles that were centered on the experience of the user, the consumer, or the customer. In fact, the term ‘customer experience' has been in use since at least the 1960s, and has become so common that a recent survey of nearly 2,000 business professionals showed that customer experience was the top priority over the next five years. And while generally speaking this emphasis is a good thing, my own focus over the past decade or so has shifted. I've realized that the more macro consideration of human experience was a subtle but vital piece missing from the discussion at large. Because when we talk about experience design and strategy, no matter what word we use to qualify it—customer, user, patient, guest, student, or otherwise—we are always talking about humans, and the roles humans are in relative to that experience. In order to refocus on human experience instead of customer, you have to change the way you think about your buyers. You owe it to yourself to think not just about how people can have a better experience purchasing from your company, but also what it means to be fully human within the journey that brings them to that moment, and the uniquely human factors that drive us to make decisions leading to purchase or loyalty. A recent piece by Deloitte shared in the Wall Street Journal echoes this idea and offers five ways to be more human-centric in business: 1) be obsessed by all things human, 2) proactively identify & understand human needs before they are expressed, 3) execute with humanity, 4) be authentic, and 5) change the world. That's what today's episode is about: using empathy and strategic business-savvy to understand what it means to be human, and how that intersects with the worlds of technology and business. Neil Redding: “When you look at everything that has to do with buying and selling of things, it's so closely tied with what we care about, what we value most, value enough as humans to spend our hard-earned money on. And so, the realm of retail reflects something really deeply human, and profoundly human.” Kate: That was Neil Redding, brand strategist and self-described “Near Futurist” focused on the retail space. He's right—buying and selling things has become deeply entwined with humanity. But when we purchase something, it's not because we think of ourselves as “customers” or “end users.” We buy because we have a need or desire to fulfill, and sometimes that need is purely emotional. A ‘customer' buys your product—a human buys your product for a reason. 84% of consumers say that being treated like a person instead of a number is an important element to winning their business. It does seem like business professionals are catching on, as 79% say it's impossible to provide great service without full context of the client and their needs. But understanding something isn't the same as putting it into practice—only 34% of people say they feel like companies actually treat them as individuals. One major difference is the question of framing. Customer experience frames the motivator as, ‘how effectively the business operates the events related to a purchase decision.' It drives companies to focus on improving their own metrics, like bringing down call center wait times. These may yield worthwhile outcomes, but they're inherently skewed to the business perspective and aligned to the purchase transaction. Focusing instead on human experience shifts the perspective to the person outside the business, and what they want or need. It allows consideration of the emotional state they may be bringing to the interaction, which leaves greater room for empathy and context. A human experience mindset suggests that each individual's unique circumstances are more important than aggregate business metrics, because the reason why that person is interacting with your company probably can't be captured by measuring, say, how long they might have to wait on the phone. You could bring that wait time to zero and it still may not have any impact on whether the person feels heard, respected, or satisfied with the outcome — or whether they want to engage with you again. But as fuzzy as it is to talk about human experience, we know that measurement is fundamental to business success, so we have to find a way to define useful metrics somehow. For each business, that number is likely a bit different. So how do you know whether your customers feel like they're being treated as humans instead of just numbers? Charlie Cole, CEO of the flower delivery website ftd.com, believes one answer is obsessing over customer satisfaction metrics. Charlie Cole: “The best way to win this industry is just kick ass with the customer. We obsess over NPS scores, uh, as kind of leading indicators of LTV scores.” Kate: If you're not familiar with the acronyms, allow me to decipher: NPS stands for Net Promoter Score, which measures how likely the customer is to recommend the business, and LTV in this context means ‘lifetime value,' or the amount a customer may spend at your business over the course of their lifetime. Charlie Cole: “But remember, it's not the receiver's lifetime, it's the sender's lifetime. I mean, think about it. My stepmom is—just had a birthday April 9th, and I sent her a plant. If I went on a website and picked out a Roselia, and she received an Azelia, she's gonna be like, ‘thank you so much, that was so thoughtful of you,' and I'm gonna be pissed, right? And so like, we have to make sure we optimize that sender NPS score. It was shocking to us when we looked into the NPS, when we first got to FTD, our NPS, Kate, was in like the teens! My CTO looked at it and he goes, ‘how is this possible? We send gifts, who doesn't like receiving gifts?' And so we were looking at this stuff and we realized like, this is how you win. And I think when people look at the world of online delivery, there's very few companies that are extremely customer-centric… and in our world it matters. It's births, it's deaths, it's birthdays, it's Mother's Days… it's the most emotional moments of your life that you're relying on us for, so I think that gravitas just goes up to the next level.” Kate: Net Promoter Score offers directional insight about the customer experience, but it still isn't quite measurement of the broader human experience. The typical NPS question is phrased, “How likely is it that you would recommend [company X] to a friend or colleague?”, which forces customers to predict future actions and place themselves into hypothetical or idealistic scenarios. It is also measured on a 1-10 scale, which is pretty arbitrary and subjective — one person's 9 would not be another person's 9. A clearer way to ask this and gain more useful human-centric data would be with simple yes/no questions, asking people about actual past behaviors. For instance, “in the past 6 weeks, have you recommended [company X] to a friend or colleague?” Other alternative measures include PES, or Product Engagement Score, which measures growth, adoption, and stickiness of a given product or service, and doesn't require directly asking customers questions about their past or future habits. Instead, data comes in in real-time and allows for a clear measurement of success relative to a product's usage. While these metrics are useful in various ways, one thing missing from them is emotion. As humans, we are animals deeply driven by our emotions: research from MIT Sloan finds that before humans decide to take an action—any action, including buying something—the decision must first go through a filtering process that incorporates both reason and feelings. Reason leads to conclusions, but emotion leads to action. And if a customer feels frustrated by the customer service they're experiencing—perhaps they feel like they are being treated like a number, and not a person—they'll file a complaint, share on social media, and tell their friends and family to avoid the business. These actions can be quite time-consuming, but people will give up their time to right a wrong they feel they've experienced. All this is to say that if you want to retain human loyalty or attract new people to your business, you have to create a positive emotional response in your customers, which means understanding more about who they are than simply what product they might want. Many businesses have discovered that one of the best ways to create an emotional connection with people is through branding. A great brand image can forge a permanent bond with someone who feels strongly that the company shares their values and practices what they preach. Once someone has connected a brand to their own identity, it becomes much more difficult to convince them to switch to another company—even if that company provides the same product at lower cost—because switching companies feels like losing a part of them. Dr. Rumman Chowdhury, Director of the Machine Learning Ethics, Transparency, and Accountability team at Twitter, explored the concept of branding with me when she came on my show last year. Rumman Chowdhury: “Human flourishing is not at odds with good business. Some of what you build, especially if you're a B2C company, it's about brand. It's about how people feel when they interact with your technology or your product. You are trying to spark an emotion. Why do you buy Coke vs Pepsi? Why do you go to McDonald's vs Burger King? Some of this is an emotional decision. It's also this notion of value. People can get overly narrowly focused on value as revenue generation—value comes from many, many different things. People often choose less ‘efficient' outcomes or less economically sound outcomes because of how it makes them feel. A frivolous example but an extreme example of it would be luxury brands. Apple spends so much money on design. Opening every Apple product is designed to feel like you're opening a present. That was intentional. They fully understand the experience of an individual, in interacting with technology like a phone or a computer, is also an emotional experience.” Kate: If you're able to understand what people connect to about your brand, you can invest into magnifying that image. If your customer loves that you invest into clean energies, it becomes less important how much time they spend on the phone waiting for a service rep. Operational metrics can't show you this emotional resonance, so instead you have to think about what makes you stand out, and why people are attracted to you. Sometimes, however, human emotion has nothing to do with the product or brand in question, and more to do with the circumstances surrounding it. There's perhaps no better example of this than flowers, which can be given for myriad reasons, and usually at the extreme ends of the emotional spectrum. I'll let Charlie Cole explain. Charlie Cole: “For us, it's buyer journey by occasion. So, you are sending flowers for the birth of a newborn. You are sending flowers for the tragic death of a teenager. You are sending flowers for the death of your 96 year old great grandfather. You are sending flowers for your wife's birthday. I would argue that even though the end of all those buyer journeys is ‘flowers,' they are fundamentally different. And you have to understand the idiosyncrasies within those buyer journeys from an emotional component. You have to start with the emotions in mind. You're buying running shoes. The buying journey for like a runner, for like a marathoner, a guy who runs all the time, is emotionally different than someone who just got told they need to lose weight at the doctor. Someone who travels for business all the time versus someone who's taking their first ever international…travel. Like, my wife retold a story the other day to my aunt about how her first European trip was when she won a raffle to go to Austria when she was 17. And her, like, single mom was taking her to Europe, and neither of them had ever been to Europe. That's a different luggage journey than me, who used to fly 300,000 miles a year. And I think that if you take the time to really appreciate the emotional nuance of those journeys, yes there's data challenges, and yes there's customer recognition challenges, so you can personalize it. But I would urge every brand to start with like the emotional amino-acid level of why that journey starts, and then reverse-engineer it from there. Because I think you'll be able to answer the data challenges and the attribution challenges, but I think that's a place where we sometimes get too tech-y and too tactical, as opposed to human.” Kate: Another challenge unique to flowers and other products usually given as gifts is that there are two completely different humans involved in the transaction, each with different expectations and emotions riding on it. Charlie Cole: “There's two people involved in every one of our journeys, or about 92% of them: the buyer, and the receiver. So how do I message to you, I don't want to ruin the surprise! But I need to educate you, and oh yeah, I'm a really really nervous boyfriend, right? I wanna make sure everybody's doing it right, and it's gonna be there on time, and I need to make sure it's going to the right place… So the messaging pathways to the sender and receiver are fundamentally different. If you kind of forget about your buying journey, and imagine everything as a gifting buyer journey, it just changes the messaging component. Not in a nuanced way, but darn near in a reciprocal way.” And while some businesses struggle to connect emotionally with the humans that make up their customer base, the tech industry—and specifically social media companies—seem to fundamentally understand what it is that humans crave, in a way that allows them to use it against us. They thrive because they take something that is quintessentially human—connecting with people and sharing our lives—and turn it into a means for data collection that can then be used to sell us products that feel specifically designed for us. Like most of us, Neil Redding has experienced this phenomenon firsthand. Neil Redding: “We spend more and more of our time in contexts that we are apparently willing to have commercialized, right? Instagram is kind of my go-to example, where almost all of us have experienced this uncanny presentation to us of something that we can buy that's like so closely tied to… I mean, it's like how did you know that this is what I wanted? So myself and people close to me have just said, ‘wow, I just keep buying this stuff that gets presented to me on Instagram that I never heard of before but gets pushed to me as like, yeah it's so easy, and it's so aligned with what I already want. So there's this suffusion of commercial transaction—or at least discovery—of goods that can be bought and sold, y'know, in these moments of our daily lives, y'know, so that increasingly deep integration of commerce and buying and selling of things into our self-expression, into our communication, works because what we care about and what we are willing to buy or what we are interested in buying are so intertwined, right? They're kind of the same thing at some deep level.” Kate: Part of the reason this works is that humans crave convenience. Lack of convenience adds friction to any process, and friction can quickly lead to frustration, which isn't a mind state that leads to more business. The internet and social media has made keeping up with friends and gathering information incredibly convenient, so an advertisement here or there—especially one that looks and feels the same as everything else on our feed—doesn't bother us like it might in other contexts. And when those advertisements have been tailored specifically to our interests, they're even less likely to spark a negative emotion, and may in fact encourage us to buy something that we feel is very “us.” The big question for business leaders and marketers then is how do you digitize your business so that it emphasizes the richness of the human experience? How do you know which technologies to bring into your business, and which to leave aside? There are plenty of established and emerging technologies to choose from: Interactive email helps marketers drive engagement and also provides an avenue for additional data collection. Loyalty marketing strategies help brands identify their best customers and customize experiences for them. Salesforce introduced new features to help humanize the customer service experience with AI-powered conversational chatbots that feel pretty darn close to speaking with an actual human. Virtual and Augmented Reality website options allow customers to interact with products and see them in their hands or living rooms before they buy. With all the choice out there, it can be overwhelming. And t oo often, businesses and governments lean into the “just buy as much tech as possible!” approach without thinking integratively about the applications of said technology. Many companies are using that technology to leverage more data than ever before, hoping to customize and personalize experiences. David Ryan Polgar, a tech ethicist and founder of All Tech Is Human, explains why this method may not yield the results you think—because humans aren't just a collection of data points. David Ryan Polgar: “Are we an algorithm, or are we unique? I always joke, like, my mom always said I'm a, a snowflake! I'm unique! Because, when you think about Amazon and recommendations, it's thinking that your past is predicting your future. And that, with enough data, we can accurately determine where your next step is. Or even with auto-suggestion, and things like that. What's getting tricky is, is that true? Or is it subtly going to be off? With a lot of these auto-suggestions, let's say like text. Well the question I always like to think about is, how often am I influenced by what they said I should say? So if I wanna write, like, ‘have a…' and then it says ‘great day,' well, maybe I was gonna say great day, but maybe I was gonna say good day. And it's subtly different, but it's also influencing kinda, my volition. Now we're being influenced by the very technology that's pushing us is a certain direction. And we like to think of it, ‘well, it's already based on you,' but then that has a sort of cyclical nature to actually extending—” Kate: “Quantum human consciousness or something.” David: “Exactly! Exactly.” Kate: “Like, the moment you observe it, it's changed.” Kate: It's so easy, especially when you work with data, to view humans as output generators. But we're living in an age where people are growing increasingly wary of data collection, which means you may not know as much about the people whose data you've collected as you think you do. Becoming dependent on an entirely data-driven model for customer acquisition may lead to faulty decisions — and may even be seen as a huge mistake five years from now. Instead, I always talk about “human-centric digital transformation,” which means the data and tech-driven changes you make should start from a human frame. Even if you're already adopting intelligent automation to accelerate your operations, in some cases, very simple technologies may belong at the heart of your model. Here's Neil Redding again. Neil Redding: “Using Zoom or FaceTime or Skype is the only technology needed to do what a lot of stores have done during COVID, where their customers expect the store associate interaction when they come to the stores, they just create a one-on-one video call, and the shopper just has this interaction over videochat, or video call, and kind of does that associate-assisted shopping, right? And so you have that human connection, and again, it's nowhere near as great as sitting across a table and having coffee, but it's better than, y'know, a 2-dimensional e-commerce style shopping experience.” Kate: As a parallel to video conferencing, Virtual Reality has opened up avenues for new human experiences of business as well. Cathy Hackl, a metaverse strategist and tech futurist, explained a new human experience she was able to have during COVID that wouldn't have been possible without VR. Cathy Hackl: “I'll give you an example, like with the Wall Street Journal, they had the WSJ Tech Live, which is their big tech conference, and certain parts of it were in VR, and that was a lot of fun! I mean, I was in Spatial, which is one of the platforms, hanging out with Joanna Stern, and with Jason Mims, and like, in this kind of experience, where like I actually got to spend some 1-on-1 time with them, and I don't know if I would have gotten that if I was in a Zoom call, and I don't know if I would have gotten that in person, either.” Kate: Virtual Reality and video technologies have also opened up new avenues for healthcare, allowing patients to conference with doctors from home and only travel to a hospital if absolutely necessary. Marcus Whitney is a healthcare investor and founder of the first venture fund in America to invest exclusively in Black founded and led healthcare innovation companies; he explains that these virtual experiences allow for better happiness, healing, and comfort. Marcus Whitney: “Going forward, telehealth will be a thing. We were already on the path to doing more and more healthcare in the home. It was something that they were trying to stop because, is the home an appropriate place for healthcare to take place? Lo and behold, it's just fine. Patients feel more secure in the home, and it's a better environment for healing, so you're gonna see a lot more of that. I think we're finally gonna start seeing some real breakthroughs and innovation in healthcare. Most of the lack of innovation has not been because we didn't have great thinkers, it has largely been regulatory barriers. Remote patient monitoring was a huge one that came up in the last year, so now we have doctors caring about it. What moves in healthcare is what's reimbursable. They were always trying to regulate to protect people, but then they realized, well, we removed the regulatory barriers and people were fine, so that regulation makes actually no sense, and people should have more choice, and they should be able to do telehealth if they want to.” Kate: And that's just it: humans want choice. We want to feel seen, and heard, and like our opinions are being considered. There's another technology on the horizon that could give people more power over their technology, and therefore freedom and choice, that will likely cause massive change in the marketplace when it is more widely available: Brain-computer interface. Cathy Hackl explains. Cathy Hackl: “So I'm very keen right now on brain-computer interface. The way I'm gonna explain it is, if you've been following Elon Musk, you've probably heard of neuro-link—he's working on BCI that's more internal, the ones I've been trying are all external devices. So I'm able to put a device on that reads my brainwaves, it reads my intent, and it knows that I wanna scroll an iPad, or I've been able to turn on lights using just my thoughts, or play a video game, or input a code… I've been able to do all these things. And I'm very keen on it, very interested to see what's going on… I think the biggest thing that's stuck with me from studying all these technologies and trying them out from an external perspective, is that my brain actually really likes it. Loves the workout. Like, I'm thinking about it, and I'm like, the receptors here, pleasure receptors are like lighting up, I'm like ‘ohmygosh!' So I'm still sitting with that. Is that a good thing? Or a bad thing? I don't know, but I think these technologies can allow us to do a lot of things, especially people with disabilities. If they don't have a hand, being able to use a virtual hand to do things in a virtual space. I think that's powerful.” Kate: That story also illuminates the fact that there are many different types of people, each with different needs. Digital transformation has given people with disabilities a new way to claim more agency over their lives, which creates a brand new potential customer-base, filled with humans who desire freedom and choice as much as the next person. Now, let's talk about some companies who are doing at least a few q things right when it comes to the digital transformation of human experience. Starbucks, for instance. One of the worst parts of shopping in-store was waiting in line, and then the social pressure from the people behind you wishing you would order faster. If you weren't a regular customer, the experience could be overwhelming. When they launched their mobile order app, it tapped into a number of things that made the experience of buying coffee faster and easier, with all sorts of fun customization options that I never knew existed when I only ordered in-store. Now, even brand new customers could order complex coffee drinks — meaning in that one move the company may have brought in new customers and allowed the cost per coffee to increase — all without people feeling pressure from other shoppers, and without the inconvenience of waiting in line. Then there's Wal-Mart, who during the pandemic instituted ‘Wal-Mart pickup,' a service where people can shop online and pick up their goods without ever having to step into the store. The service is technically operating at a financial loss, but Wal-Mart understands that solid branding and convenience are worth more to their company's bottom-line in the long run than the amount of money they're losing by investing into this particular service. Of course, some businesses are better suited for the online-only world than others. As more companies attempt to digitize their businesses, it's incredibly important to tap into the human reasons that people wanted to engage with your business in the first place. In some cases, businesses have failed to make this connection, assuming that “if people liked us as a physical product, then they'll continue using us when we're digital,” or worse, “if we simply make people aware of us, they will become customers!” This assumption ignores human nature, as Ana Milicevic, a longtime digital media executive who is principal and co-founder of Sparrow Digital Holdings, explains. Ana Milicevic: “To be relevant in this direct to consumer world, you also have to approach awareness and customer acquisition differently. And this is the #1 mistake we see a lot of traditional companies make, and not really understand how to pitch to a digital-first, mobile-first consumer or a direct subscriber. They're just not wired to do it that way, and often times the technology stacks that they have in place just aren't the types of tools that can facilitate this type of direct interaction as well. So they're stuck in this very strange limbo where they are committed to continuing to acquire customers in traditional ways, but that's just not how you would go about acquiring a direct customer.” Kate: Acquiring those direct customers requires an understanding of what humans want—a large part of which is meaning. And how people create meaning in their lives is changing as well. Long before the pandemic, trends were already pointing toward a future where we live more of our lives online, but those trends have also been accelerated. So beyond digitizing your business, it may also be useful to invest time, money, and energy into discovering how the humans of the future will create meaning in their lives. Cathy Hackl discussed some of the trends she's seen in her own kids that show how today's children will consume and make purchasing decisions in a very different way than most modern businesses are used to. Cathy Hackl: “Something else that I'm noticing… y'know we're going to brick and mortar, but we're going to brick and mortar less. So you start to see this need for that virtual try-on to buy your makeup, or to buy clothes, and it's also transitioning not only from the virtual try-on into what I'm calling the direct-to-avatar economy. Everything from virtual dresses that you're buying, or custom avatars, y'know you're starting to create this virtualized economy. And this is the reason I always talk about this now, is my son recently did his first communion, and when we said, ‘hey, what do you want as a gift?' he said, ‘I don't want money, I want a Roblox gift card that I can turn into Robucks,'—which is the currency they use inside Roblox—'so that I can buy—whichever gamer's skin.' And, y'know, when I was growing up, my brother was saving up to buy AirJordans. My son doesn't want that, y'know, he wants Robucks, to buy something new for his avatar. This is direct-to-avatar; is direct-to-avatar the next direct-to-consumer?” Kate: Our online avatars represent us. We can customize them to directly express who we feel we are. Part of the reason this idea is so attractive is that many people—increasingly so in the context of online interaction—seek out meaningful experiences as our ‘aspirational' selves. We gravitate to the communities that align with facets of who we wish we were. And perhaps less productively, we may also choose to present the idealized version of ourselves to the world, omitting anything we're embarrassed by or that we feel may paint us in a negative light. But honestly, all of this makes sense in the context of making meaning, because humans are generally the most emotionally fulfilled when we feel empowered to control which ‘self' we present in any given interaction. With this much freedom of choice and expression, and with the complications of the modern supply chain—which I will talk about more in depth in our next episode—it's important to acknowledge that creating convenience and improving human satisfaction aren't going to be easy tasks. Behind the scenes, there is a tremendous amount of work that goes into providing a satisfying customer experience. Let's go back to the example of flowers and see what Charlie Cole has to say. Charlie Cole: “If it's too cold they freeze, if it's too hot they wilt, if UPS is a day late they die. And then, the real interesting aspect—and this isn't unique to flowers—the source is remarkably centralized. So the New York Times estimated that 90-92% of roses that are bought in America for Valentine's Day come from Columbia and Ecuador. And so, if anything goes wrong there, then you really don't have a chance. Imagine the quintessential Valentine's Day order: A dozen long-stem roses, New York City. Easy, right? I used to live on 28th and 6th, so let's say Chelsea. Okay, I've got 7 florists who could do it. Who has delivery capacity? Roses capacity? The freshest roses? The closest to proximity? The closest to the picture in the order? Who has the vase that's in the order? Did they buy roses from us? Because I like to be able to incentivize people based on margins they already have. And so without exaggeration, Kate, we have about 11-12 ranking factors that educate a quality score for a florist, and that's how it starts the process. But then there's all the other things, like how do we know somebody didn't walk into that florist that morning and buy all the roses, right? And so there's this real-time ebb-and-flow of demand because our demand is not ours! They have their own store, they have their own B2B business, they might take orders from some of our competitors. They might have their own website. We have no idea what any given florist happens in real time because they are not captive to us. What we've learned is the place we have to get really really really really good is technology on the forecasting side, on the florist communication side, and the customer communication side. Because I can't control the seeds on the ground in Columbia, but I can really control the communication across the entire network as far as we go, as well as the amounts the we need in various places.” Kate: Creating that small-scale, emotional human moment where someone receives flowers requires immense computing power and collaboration between multiple businesses and workers. Which is part of why Charlie Cole also believes that in some cases, the best way to help your business succeed is to invest in helping other businesses that yours interacts with. Charlie Cole: “Small businesses… I think it's our secret sauce. And I think COVID has shined a light on this: small businesses are the core of our communities. Right? They are the absolute core, and I think it was always nice to say that, but now we know it. And so here's what I think we do better than anybody else: we've invested more in helping our florists run their own small business independently of us than we have about optimizing our marketplace. We launched new POS software. We launched a new local website product where we're like the first person ever to become a reseller for Shopify because we made a custom platform for florists. We're just their website provider. They're actually competing with FTD.com in a lot of ways—but I think that's where we're gonna differentiate ourselves from all the other people that are perceived as, by small businesses, (their words not mine) leeches. Right? I think to actually effectively run a marketplace which is fulfilled by small businesses, you need to invest as much in helping them win their local market independent of you.” Kate: You could make the case that there is no more evolved human experience than choosing to help others. So if your business is engaged in activities that allow other businesses—and therefore humans—to thrive, you may also be building your brand in a direction that creates more customer loyalty than any exit survey or great service interaction ever could. Beyond understanding human emotions and needs, you can help your business by leaning into understanding how we create meaning. At our core, we are compelled to make meaning. Whether we realize it or not, meaningful experiences and interactions are the driving force behind many of our decisions, financial or otherwise. Meaning is different for everyone, but having it is vital to our happiness. If you are able to engage with potential customers in a way that helps them create meaning, or allows them to use your product to make meaning on their own, you are aligning your success with your customers' success, and that bodes well for the long term. At the end of the day, making any of these changes starts at the very top of your business. Leadership needs to set the tone, creating a culture that allows room for workers at every level to engage more meaningfully with customers, and with each other. (By the way, for more discussion on creating or changing work culture, you can check out our last episode, “Does the Future of Work Mean More Agency For Workers?”) Your effort will benefit not only your business, but society as a whole. Remember the Deloitte piece in the Wall Street Journal I mentioned at the start of the episode, with ways to be more human-centric in business? Number 5 on that list was “change the world,” and research from Frontiers suggests that the well-being of any society is directly linked to how the people living within it feel about their lives and purpose. How we do that may be as simple — and as complicated — as helping people to experience meaning at any level. While the technologies around us keep changing, the opportunity becomes increasingly clear for people who work around creating customer experiences and user experiences to open up the aperture to see humanity through a fuller lens. This way, as you set your business up for longterm success, you also advocate for making human experiences as meaningful as possible — and you just might be changing the world for the better. Thanks for joining me as I explored what it means to think of customers as human. Next time, I'll be exploring the supply chain and how, despite the vast technology involved, the closer you look the more you realize: the economy is people.

About KateKate Holterhoff, an industry analyst with RedMonk, has a background in frontend engineering, academic research, and technical communication. Kate comes to RedMonk from the digital marketing sector and brings with her expertise in frontend engineering, QA, accessibility, and scrum best practices.Before pursuing a career in the tech industry Kate taught writing and communication courses at several East Coast universities. She earned a PhD from Carnegie Mellon in 2016 and was awarded a postdoctoral fellowship (2016-2018) at Georgia Tech, where she is currently an affiliated researcher.Links: RedMonk: https://redmonk.com/ Visual Haggard: https://visualhaggard.org Twitter: https://twitter.com/kateholterhoff TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Couchbase Capella Database-as-a-Service is flexible, full-featured, and fully managed with built-in access via key-value, SQL, and full-text search. Flexible JSON documents aligned to your applications and workloads. Build faster with blazing fast in-memory performance and automated replication and scaling while reducing cost. Capella has the best price-performance of any fully managed document database. Visit couchbase.com/screaminginthecloud to try Capella today for free and be up and running in three minutes with no credit card required. Couchbase Capella: Make your data sing.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Revelo. Revelo is the Spanish word of the day, and its spelled R-E-V-E-L-O. It means, “I reveal.” Now, have you tried to hire an engineer lately? I assure you it is significantly harder than it sounds. One of the things that Revelo has recognized is something I've been talking about for a while, specifically that while talent is evenly distributed, opportunity is absolutely not. They're exposing a new talent pool to, basically, those of us without a presence in Latin America via their platform. It's the largest tech talent marketplace in Latin America with over a million engineers in their network, which includes—but isn't limited to—talent in Mexico, Costa Rica, Brazil, and Argentina. Now, not only do they wind up spreading all of their talent on English ability, as well as you know, their engineering skills, but they go significantly beyond that. Some of the folks on their platform are hands down the most talented engineers that I've ever spoken to. Let's also not forget that Latin America has high time zone overlap with what we have here in the United States, so you can hire full-time remote engineers who share most of the workday as your team. It's an end-to-end talent service, so you can find and hire engineers in Central and South America without having to worry about, frankly, the colossal pain of cross-border payroll and benefits and compliance because Revelo handles all of it. If you're hiring engineers, check out revelo.io/screaming to get 20% off your first three months. That's R-E-V-E-L-O dot I-O slash screaming.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Every once in a while on the Twitters, I see a glorious notification. Now, doesn't happen often, but when it does, I have all well, atwitter, if you'll pardon the term. They have brought someone new in over at RedMonk.RedMonk has been a longtime friend of the show. They're one of the only companies that can say that about and not immediately get a cease-and-desist for having said that. And their most recent hire is joining me today. Kate Holterhoff is a newly minted analyst over at RedMonk. Kate, thank you for joining me.Kate: It's great to be here.Corey: One of the things that's always interesting about RedMonk is how many different directions you folks seem to go in all at once. It seems that I keep crossing paths with you folks almost constantly: When I'm talking to clients, when I'm talking to folks in the industry. And it could easily be assumed that you folks are 20, 30, 40 people, but to my understanding, there are not quite that many of you there.Kate: That is very true. Yes. I am the fifth analyst on a team of seven. And yeah, brought on the first of the year, and I'm thrilled to be here. I actually, I would say, recruited by one of my friends at Georgia Tech, Kelly Fitzpatrick, who I taught technical communication with when we were both postdocs in their Brittain Fellowship program.Corey: So, you obviously came out of an academic background. Is this your first excursion to industry?Kate: No, actually. After getting my PhD in literary and cultural studies at Carnegie Mellon in 2016, I moved to Atlanta and took a postdoc at Georgia Tech. And after that was kind of winding down, I decided to make the jump to industry. So, my first position out of that was at a digital marketing agency in Atlanta. And I was a frontend engineer for several years.Towards the end of my tenure there, I moved into doing more of their production engineering and QA work. Although it was deeply tied to my frontend work, so we spent a lot of time looking at how the web sites look at different media queries, making sure that there were no odd break points. So, it certainly was an organic move there as their team expanded.Corey: You spent significant amounts of time in the academic landscape. When you start talking about, “Well, I took on a postdoc position,” that's usually the sign of not your first year on a college campus in most cases. I mean, again, with an eighth grade education, I'm not really the person to ask, but I sit here in awe as people who are steeped in academia wind up going about the magic that, from where I sit, they tend to do. What was it that made you decide that I really enjoy the field that I've gotten a doctorate in. You just recently published a book in that is—or at least tangentially related to this space.But you decide, “You know what I really want to do now? That's right, frontend engineering. I want to spend, more or less, 40-some-odd hours a week slowly going mad because CSS, and I can't quite get that thing to line up the way that I want it to.” Now, at least that's my experience with it, for folks who are, you know, competent at it, I presume that's a bit of a different story.Kate: Yes. I considered naming my blog at RedMonk, “How to Center a Div.” So yes, that is certainly an ongoing issue, I think, for anyone in [unintelligible 00:06:15] any, you know, practitioners. So, I guess my story probably began in 2013, the real move into technology. So, getting a PhD, of course, takes a very, very long time.So, I started at Carnegie Mellon in 2009, and in 2013, I started a digital archive called Visual Haggard. And it's a Ruby on Rails site; you can visit it at visualhaggard.org. And it is a digital archive of illustrations that were created to accompany a 19th century writer, H. Rider Haggard.And I became very interested in all the illustrations that had been created to accompany both the serialization of his fictions, but also the later novelizations. And it's kind of like how we have all these different movie adaptations of, like, Spider Man that come out every couple of years. These illustrations were just very iterative. And generally, this fellowship that I saw really only focused on, you know, the first illustrations that, you know, came out. So, this was a sort of response to that: How can we use technology to showcase all the different types of illustrations and how maybe different artists would interpret that literature differently?And so, that drove me into a discipline called the digital humanities, which really sort of, you know, focuses on that question, which is, you know, how to computers help us to understand the humanities better? And so, that incorporates not only the arts, but also literature, philosophy, you know, new media. But it's an extremely broad subject, and it's evolving, as you can imagine, as the things that technology can do expands. So, I became interested in this subject and really was drawn to the sort of archival aspects of this. Which wasn't really my training; I think that's something that, you know, you think of librarians as being more focused on, but I became acquainted with all these, you know, very obscure editions.But in any event, it also taught me how to [laugh] use technology, I really—I was involved in the [RDF 00:08:08] export for [laugh] incorporating the site on Nines, which is sort of a larger agglomeration of 19th century archives. And I was just really drawn to a lot of the new things that we could do. So, I began to use it more in my teaching. So, not only did I—and of course as I taught communication courses at Carnegie Mellon, and then I moved to teaching them at Georgia Tech, you can imagine I had many students who were engineers, and they were very interested in these sorts of questions as well. So, the move felt very organic to me, but I think any academic that you speak to, their identity is very tied up in their sort of, you know, academic standing.And so, the idea of jumping ship, of not being labeled an academic anymore is kind of terrifying. But I, you know, ultimately opted to do it. It certainly was, yeah, but you know, what [laugh] what I learned is that there's the status called an affiliated researcher. So, I didn't necessarily have to be a professor or someone on the tenure track in order to continue doing research.Corey: Was it hard for you?Kate: So, the book project, which is titled Illustration in Fin-de-Siècle Transatlantic Romance Fiction, and has a chapter devoted to H. Rider Haggard, I wrote it, while really not even being an instructor or sort of traditional academic. I had access to the library through this affiliated researcher status, which I maintained by keeping a relationship with the folks at Georgia Tech, and was able to do all my research while you know, having a job in industry. And I think what a lot of academics need to do is think about what it is about academia that they really value. Is it the teaching?Because in industry, we spend a lot of time teaching [laugh]. Sharing our knowledge is something that's extremely important. Is that the research? As an analyst, I get to do research all the time, which is really fun for me. And then, you know, is it really just kind of focusing on historical aspects? And that was also important to me.So, you know, this status allowed me to keep all the best parts of being an academic while kind of sloughing off the [laugh] parts that weren't so good, which is, um, say the fact that 80% of courses in the university are taught now by adjuncts or folks who are not on the tenure track line. Which is, you know, pretty shocking, you know. The academy is going through some… troubles right now, and hiring issues are—they need to be acknowledged, and I think folks who are considering getting a PhD need to look for other career paths beyond just through modeling it on their advisors, or, you know, in order to become, ostensibly, a professor themselves.Corey: I don't know if I've told the story before in public, but I briefly explored the possibility of getting a PhD myself, which is interesting given that I'd have to… there's some prerequisites I'd probably have to nail first, like, get a formal GED might be, like, step one, before proceeding on. And strangely enough for me, it was not the higher level, I guess, contribution to a body of knowledge in a particular direction. I mean, cloud economics being sort of an easy direction for me [laugh] to go in, given that I eat, sleep, live, and breathe it, but rather the academic rigor around so much of it. And the incentives feel very different, which to be clear, is a good thing. My entire career path has always been focused on not starving to death, and how do we turn this problem into money, whereas academia has always seemed to be focused on knowledge for the sake of knowledge without much, if any, thought toward the practical application slash monetization thereof? Is that a fair characterization from where you sit? I'm trying not to actively be insulting, but it's possible I may be unintentionally so.Kate: No, I think you're right on. And so yeah, like, the book that I published, I probably won't see any remuneration for that. There is very little—I'm actually [laugh] not even sure what the contract says, but I don't intend to make any money with this. Professors, even those who have reached the height of their career, unless they're, you know, on specific paths, don't make a lot of money, those in the humanities, especially. You don't do this to become wealthy.And the Visual Haggard archive, I don't—you know, everything is under a Creative Commons license. I don't make money from people, you know, finding images that they're looking for to reproduce, say, on a t-shirt or something. So yeah, I suspect you do it for the love. I always explained it as having a sort of existential anxiety of, like, trying to, you know, cheat death. I think it was Umberto Eco who said that in order to live forever, you have to have a child and a book.And at this point, I have two children and a book now, so I can just, you know, die and my, you know, [laugh] my legacy lives on. But I do feel like the reasons that folks go into upper higher education vary, and so I wouldn't want to speak for everyone. But for me, yeah, it is not a place to make money, it's a place to establish sort of more intangible benefits.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at ChaosSearch. You could run Elasticsearch or Elastic Cloud—or OpenSearch as they're calling it now—or a self-hosted ELK stack. But why? ChaosSearch gives you the same API you've come to know and tolerate, along with unlimited data retention and no data movement. Just throw your data into S3 and proceed from there as you would expect. This is great for IT operations folks, for app performance monitoring, cybersecurity. If you're using Elasticsearch, consider not running Elasticsearch. They're also available now in the AWS marketplace if you'd prefer not to go direct and have half of whatever you pay them count towards your EDB commitment. Discover what companies like Klarna, Equifax, Armor Security, and Blackboard already have. To learn more, visit chaossearch.io and tell them I sent you just so you can see them facepalm, yet again.Corey: I guess one of the weird things from where I sit is looking at the broad sweep of industry and what I know of RedMonks perspective, you mentioned that as a postdoc, you taught technical communication. Then you went to go to frontend engineering, which in many respects is about effectively, technically—highly technical and communicating with the end-user. And now you are an analyst at RedMonk. And seeing what I have seen of your organization in the larger ecosystem, teaching technical communication is a terrific descriptor of what it is you folks actually do. So, from a certain point of view, I would argue that you're still pursuing the path that you are on in some respects. Is that even slightly close to the way that you view things, or am I just more or less ineffectively grasping at straws, as I am wont to do?Kate: No, I feel like there is a continuous thread. So, even before I got my PhD, I got a—one of my bachelor's degrees was in art. So, I used to paint murals; I was very interested in public art. And so, it you know, it feels to me that there is this thread that goes from an interest in the arts and how the public can access them to, you know, doing web development that's focused on the visual aspects, you know, how are these things responsive? What is it that actually makes the DOM communicate in this visual way? You know, how are cascading style sheets,allowing us to do these sorts of marvelous things?You know, I could talk about my favorite, you know, selectors and things. [laugh]. Because I will defend CSS. I actually don't hate it, although we use SASS if it matters. But you know, that I think there's a lot to be said for the way that the web looks today rather than, you know, 20 years ago.So there, it feels very natural to me to have moved from an interest in illustration to trying to, you know, work in a more frontend way, but then ultimately [laugh] move from that into doing, sort of, QA, which is, like, well, let's take a look at how we're communicating visually and see if we can improve that to, you know, look for things that maybe aren't coming across as well as they could. Which really forced me to work in the interactive team more with the UI/UX folks who are, you know, obviously telling the designers where to put the buttons and, you know, how to structure the, you know, the text blocks in relationship to the images and things like that. So, it feels natural to me, although it might not seem so on the outside. You know, in the process, I really I guess, acquired a love of that entire area.And I think what's great about working at RedMonk now is that I get to see how these technologies are evolving. So, you know, I actually just spun up a site on [unintelligible 00:16:27] not long ago. And, I mean, it is so cool. I mean, you know, coming from a background where we were working with, you know, jQuery, [laugh] things have really evolved. You know, it's exciting. And I think we're seeing the, [like, as 00:16:39] the full stack approach to this.Corey: I used to volunteer for the jQuery infrastructure team and help run jquery.net, once upon a time.Kate: Ohh.Corey: I assume that is probably why it is no longer in vogue. Like, oh, Corey was too close to it got his stink all over the thing. Let's find something better immediately, which honestly, not the worst approach in the world to take.Kate: I'm so impressed. I had no idea.Corey: It was mostly—because again, I was bad at frontend; always have been, but I know how to make computers run—kind of—and on the backend side of things and the infrastructure piece of it. It's like I tend to—at least at the time—break the world into more or less three sets: You had the ops types, think of database admins and the rest; you had the backend engineers, people who wrote code that made things talk to each other from an API perspective, and you had frontend folks who took all of the nonsense and had this innovative idea that, “Huh, maybe a green screen glowing text terminal isn't the pinnacle of user experience that we might possibly think about, and start turning it into something that a human being can use.”And whatever I hear folks from one of those constituencies start talking disparagingly about the others, it's… yeah, go walk a mile in their shoes and then tell me how you feel. A couple years ago, I took a two week break to, all right, it's time for me to learn JavaScript. And by the end of the two weeks period, I was more confused than I was when I began. And it's just a very different way of thinking than I have become accustomed to working with. So, from where I sit, people who work on that stuff successfully are effectively just this side of wizards.I think that there's—I feel the same way about database types. That's an area I never go into either because I'm terrible at that, and the stakes over their company-killing proportions in a way that I took down a web server usually doesn't.Kate: Yeah, I think that's often the motto, well, at least at my last company, which was like, “It's just a website. No one will die.” [laugh].Corey: Honestly, I find that the people who have really have the best attitude about that tend to be, strangely enough, military veterans because it's, “The site is down. How are you so calm?” It's, “Well, no one's shooting at me and no one's going to die? It's fine.” Like, “We're all going to go home to our families tonight. It'll work out.” It having perspective is important.Kate: Yeah. It is interesting how the impetus—I mean, going back to your question about, you know, making money at this field, you know, how that kind of factors in, I guess, frontend does tend to have a more relaxed attitude than say, yeah, if you drop a table or something. But at the same time, you know, compared to academia, it did feel a little bit more [laugh] like, “Okay, well, this—you know, we've got the project manager that is breathing down our neck. They got to send them something, you know, what's going on here?” So, yeah, it does become a little bit more, I don't know, these things ramped up a little bit, and the importance, you know, varies by, you know, whatever part of it you're working on.It's interesting, as an analyst, I don't hear the terms backend and frontend as much, and that was really how my team was divided, you know? It was really, kind of, opaque when you walked in. Started the job, I was like, “Okay, well, is this something that the frontend should be dealing with or the backend? You know, what's going on?” And then, you know, ultimately, I was like, “Oh, no, I know exactly what this is.”And then anyone who came on later, I was like, “No, no, no. We talk to the backend folks for this sort of problem.” So, I don't know if that's also something that's falling out of vogue, but that was, you know, the backend handled all the DevOps aspects as well, and so, you know, anything with our virtual boxes and, you know, trying to get things running and, you know, access to our… yeah, the servers, you know, all of that was kind of handled by backend. But yeah, I worked with some really fantastic frontend, folks. They were just—I feel like they we could bet had been better categorized as full stack. And many of them have CS degrees and they chose to go into frontend. So, you know, it's a—I have no patience for, you know—Corey: Oh God, you mean you chose this instead of it being something that happened to you in a horrible accident one of these days?Kate: [laugh]. Exactly.Corey: And that's not restricted to frontend; that's working with computers, in my experience.Kate: [laugh].Corey: Like, oh, God, it's hard to remember I chose this at one point. Now, it feels almost like I'm not suited for anything else. You have a clear ability to effectively communicate technical concepts. If not, you more or less wasted most of your academic career, let's be very clear. Then you decided that you're going to go and be an engineer for a while, and you did that.Why RedMonk? Why was that the next step because with that combination of skills, the world is very much your oyster. What made you look at RedMonk and say, “Yes, this is where I should work?” And let me be very clear. There are days I have strongly considered, like, if I weren't doing this, where would I be? And yeah, I would probably annoy RedMonk into actively blocking me on all social media or hiring me. There's no third option there. So, I agree wholeheartedly with the decision. What was it that made it for you?Kate: I mean, it was certainly not just one thing. One of the parts of academia that I really enjoyed was the ability to go to conferences and just travel and really get to meet people. And so, that was something that seemed to be a big part of it [unintelligible 00:21:27] so that's kind of the part that maybe doesn't get mentioned so much. And then especially in the Covid era, you know, we're not doing as much traveling, as you're well aware.Corey: We're spending all of our time having these conversations via screen.Kate: You know, I do enjoy that.Corey: Yeah. Like in the before times, probably one out of every eight episodes or so of this show was recorded in person.Kate: Wow.Corey: Now, it's, “I don't know. I don't really know if I want to go across town.” It's a—honestly, I've become a bit of a shut-in here. But you get it down to a science. But you lose something by doing it.Kate: That's true.Corey: There's a lack of high bandwidth communication.Kate: And many of my academic friends, when they would go to conferences, they would just kind of hide in their hotel room until they had to present. And I was the kind of person that was down in the bar hanging out. So, to me, it [laugh] felt very natural. But in terms of the intellectual parts, in all seriousness, I think the ability to pull apart arguments is something that I just truly enjoy. So, when I was teaching, which of course was how—was why they paid me to be an academic, you know, I loved when I could sit in a classroom and I would ask a question. You know, I kind of come up with these questions ahead of time.And the students would say something totally unexpected, and then I'd have another one, say something totally out of the blue as well. And I get to take them and say, “You're both right. Here's how we combine them, and here's how we're going to move forward.” Sort of, the ability to take an argument and sort of mold it into something constructive, I think can be very useful, both in, you know, meeting with clients who maybe are, you know, coming at things a little bit differently than then maybe we would recommend in order to, you know, help them to reach developers, the practitioners, but also, you know, moderating panels is something that a lot of my colleagues do. I mean, that's a big part of the job, too, is, you know, speaking and… well, not only doing sort of keynote talks, which my colleague Rachel is doing that at, I think, a [GlueCon 00:23:14] this year.And then—but also, you know, just in video format, you know, to having multiple presenters and, kind of, taking their ideas and making something out of that sort of forwards the argument. I think that's a lot of fun. I like to think I do an okay job at it. And I certainly have a lot of experience with it. And then just finally, you know, listening to argument [unintelligible 00:23:30] a big part of the job is going to briefings where clients explain what their product does, and we listen and try to give them feedback about how to reach the developer audience, and, you know, just trying to work on that communication aspect.And I think what I would like to push is more of the visual part of this. So, I think a lot of times, people don't always think through the icons that they include, or the illustrations, or the just the stock photos. And I find those so fascinating. [laugh]. I know, that's not always the most—the part that everyone wants to focus on, but to me, the visuals of these pitches are truly interesting. They really, kind of, maybe say things that they don't intend always, and that also can really make concrete ideas that are, especially with some of this really complex technology, it can really help potential buyers to understand what it accomplishes better.Corey: Some of the endless engagements I've been on that I enjoy the most have been around talking to vendors who are making things. And it starts off invariably as, “Yeah, we want to go ahead and tell the world about this thing that we've done.” And my perspective has always been just a subtle frame shift. It's like, “Yeah, let me save some time. No one cares. Absolutely no one cares. You're in love with the technical thing that you built, and the only people who are going to love it as much as you do are either wanting to work where you, or they're going to go build their own and they're not going to be your customer. So, don't talk about you. No one cares about you. Talk about the pain that you solve. Talk about the painful thing that you're target customer is struggling with that you make disappear.”And I didn't think that would be, A, as revelatory as it turned out to be, and B, a lesson that I had to learn myself. When I was starting o—when I was doing some product development here where I once again fell into the easy trap of assuming if I know something, everyone must know it, therefore, it's easy, whereas if I don't know something, it's very hard, and no one could possibly wrap their head around it. And we all come from different places, and meeting people wherever they are in their journey, it's a delicate lesson to learn. I never understood what analysts did until I started being an analyst myself, and I've got to level with you, I spent six months of doing those types of engagements feeling like a giant fraud. I'm just a loudmouth with an opinion, what is what does that mean?Well, in many ways, it means analyst. Because it's having an opinion is in so many ways, what customers are really after. Raw data, you can find that a thousand different ways, but finding someone who could talk on what something means, that's harder. And I think that we don't teach anything approaching that in most of our STEM curriculum.Kate: Yeah, I think that's really on point. Yeah, I mean, especially when some of these briefings are so mired in acronyms, and sort of assumed specialization. I know I spend a lot of time just thinking about what it is that confuses me about their pitch, more so than what, you know, is actually coming through. So, I think actually, one of the tools that we use—writing instructors; my past life—was thinking like someone with an eighth grade education. So, I actually think that your reference to having [laugh] you know, that's sort of chestnut, that can actually be useful because you say, “If I, you know, took my slide deck and showed it to a bunch of eighth graders, would they understand what it is that I'm saying?”You know, maybe you don't want them to get the technical details, but what problem does it solve? If they don't understand that, you're not doing a good enough job. And so that, to me, is [laugh] actually something that a lot of folks need to hear. That yeah, these vendors because they're just so deep in it, they're so in the weeds, that they can't maybe see how someone who's just looking for a database, or a platform, or whatever, they actually need this sort of simplified and yet broad enough explanation for what it is that they're actually trying to do what service they actually provide.Corey: From where I sit, one of the hardest things is just reaching people in the right way. And I'm putting out a one to two-thousand word blog post every week because I apparently hate myself. And that was a constant struggle for me when I started doing that a year or two ago. And what has worked for me that really get me moving down that is, instead of trying to teach everyone all the things, I pick an individual—and it varies from week to week—that I think about and I want to explain something to that person. And then I wind up directing what it is I'm about to tell—what it is I'm writing—to that person.Sometimes they're a complete layperson. Other times they are fairly advanced in a particular area of technology. And the responses to these things differ, but it's always—I always learn something from the feedback that I get. And if nothing else, is one of those ways to become a better writer. While I would start by writing. Just do it, don't whine—don't worry about getting it perfect; just go out there and power through things.At least, that's my approach. And I'm talking about the burden of writing a thousand words a week. You wrote an actual book. My belief is that, the more people I've talked to who've done that, no one actually wants to write a book; people want to have written a book, and that definitely resonates with me. I am tempted to just slap a bunch of these—Kate: Yeah.Corey: —blogs posts together and call it a book one of these days as an anthology. But it feels like it's cheating. If I ever decide to go down that path, I want to do it right.Kate: I guess, I come at it from the perspective of I don't know what I think until I write it down. So, it helps me to formulate ideas better. I also feel like my strength is in rereading things and trying to edit them down to really get to the kernel of what it is I think. And a lot of times how I begin a chapter or a blog post or whatever is not where it should begin, that maybe I'm somewhere in the middle, maybe this is a conclusion. There's something magical, in my view, that [laugh] happens when you write, that you are able to pause and take a little bit more time and maybe come up with a better word for what it is that you're trying to communicate.I also am—I benefit from readers. So, for instance, in my book, I have one chapter that really focuses on Harper's Weekly, which is an American newspaper. I'm not an Americanist; I don't have a deep knowledge of that, so what I did is I revise that chapter and send it to American periodicals and got feedback from their readers. Super useful. In terms of my blog at RedMonk, anytime I publish something, you can bet that at least one founder and probably at least one other analyst has read it through and giving me some extremely incisive feedback. It never is just from my mind. It's something that is collaboration.And I am grateful to anyone who takes the time to read my writing because, you know, all of us have so much time, of course. It really helps me to understand what it is that I'm trying to dig into. So, for instance, I've been writing a series for RedMonk on certifications, which makes a lot of sense; I've come from an academic background, here it is, you know, I'm seeing all these tech certifications. And so, it's interesting to me to see similarities and differences and what sort of issues that we're seeing come up with them. So, for instance, I just wrote about the vendor-specific versus vendor-neutral certifications. What are the advantages of getting a certification from the CN/CF versus from say, VMware and—Corey: Oh, I have opinions, on all of [those 00:30:44]—Kate: I—Corey: —and most of them are terrible.Kate: —I'm sure you do. [laugh]. It came naturally out of the job, you know, sitting through briefings and, kind of, seeing these things evolve, and the questions that I have from a long history of teaching, but. I think it also suggests the collaborative aspect of this, of coming to my colleagues—you know, I've been here before, for what, four months?—and saying, you know, “Is this normal? Like, what are we seeing here? Let me write a little bit about what I think is going on with certifications, and then you tell me, you know, what it is that you've seen with your years and years of expertise,” right?So, Stephen O'Grady's been doing this for longer than he really likes to admit, right? So, this is grateful to have such well-established colleagues that can help me on that journey. But, you know, to kind of spiral back to your original question, I think that writing to me is an exploration, it's something that helps me to get to something a little more, I guess, meaningful than just where I began. You know, just the questions that I have, I can kind of dig down and find some substance there. I would encourage you to take any one of your blog posts and think about maybe where they—or using the jumping off points for your eventual book, which I will be looking for on newsstands any day now.Corey: I am looking forward to seeing how you continue to evolve your coverage area, as well as reading more of your writings around these things. I am—they always say that the cobblers children have no shoes, and I am having an ongoing war with the RedMonk RSS feed because I've been subscribed to it three times now, and I'm still not seeing everything that comes through, such as your posts. Time for me to go and yell at some people over on your end about how these things work because it is such good content. And every time RedMonk puts something out, it doesn't matter who over there has written it, I wind up reading it with this sense of envy, in that I wish I had written something like this. It is always an experience, and your writing is absolutely no exception to that. You fit in well over there.Kate: It means a lot to me. Thank you. [laugh].Corey: No, thank you. I want to thank you for spending so much time talking to me about things that I feel like I'm still not quite smart enough to wrap my head around, but that's all right. If people want to learn more, where's the best place to find you?Kate: Certainly Twitter. So, my Twitter handle is just my name, @kateholterhoff. And I don't post as often as maybe I should, but I try to maintain an ongoing presence there.Corey: And we will of course, put a link to that in the [show notes 00:33:04].Kate: Thank you.Corey: Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it. Kate Holterhoff, analyst at RedMonk. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice—or if you're on YouTube, smash that like and subscribe button—whereas if you've hated this podcast, please do the exact same thing—five-star review, smashed buttons—but then leave an angry, incoherent comment, and it's going to be extremely incoherent because you never learned to properly, technically communicate.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble. 

In this week's episode, I sit down with Kate Eckstein, of Kate Eckstein Design. Kate left the corporate world to realize her dream of owning her own interior design business. When she began her company, she had become the mother of two small children, she was married and believed herself to be living a fully authentic life. Yet when Kate discovered that the woman she was presenting to the world was not her true self, she also had to acknowledge she was not her true self in her marriage. Kate talks about the shedding that happens in divorce and the pain of what is lost, even if authenticity is found.Like me, Kate is the mother of a neurodivergent child. We talk about our perfectionistic personalities and how they bleed into motherhood. We talk about how we find ourselves “chasing our child's brain” because our sons' needs are so great, and we think that there is always more we could be doing to help these little humans feel successful in their lives. Spoiler alert: we are human and just doing our best.Kate just keeps reminding us over and over that there is so much letting go that is constantly taking place to grow: “By letting the perfect that I thought I needed go, it allowed me to be at peace with who I am with what's left.”Some highlights in this Episode from Kate:“You want to say, ‘Oh, I won't lose anything because I'm real now', but you will lose all kinds of stuff and it hurts. And you wonder, well, maybe that other person was better than the real me because maybe that's why I created that person in the first place. But after all I've gone through, that now that I am on the other side, I can say, oh… the people who are still here right now, they know what's on the inside. And they love it.”"And I think, certainly going through the divorce, I lost that exact thing.  And it's very interesting to be fully supported and loved by a partner, but have them not be able to take on that anxiety, or compassion. I guess it is like, they don't need to, and they aren't. They can't have the same level of feeling towards your kid.""Starting a whole new life, when you're a fully fledged adult is complicated. I was married for 13 years, we just sort of grew up together. And now... new relationship, new family members, new home, new job—it's like learning all of this stuff over again. So there's a huge learning curve in terms of that blending of people, and who you want to be in that mix."Don't Miss a Beat. Follow my Instagram for news from me, Tara Beckett: https://www.instagram.com/letperfectburn/Website for Kate Eckstein Design:http://www.kateecksteindesign.com/Kate's Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/kateecksteindesign/Original Music for Let Perfect Burn by Eleri Wardhttps://www.instagram.com/eleriward/

01:48 - Kate's Superpower: Empathy * Absorbing Energy * Setting Healthy Energetic Boundaries * Authenticity * Intent vs Impact 10:46 - Words and Narratives Carry Power; Approaching Inclusive Language * Taking Action After Causing Harm * Get Specific, But Don't Overthink * Practice Makes Progress * Normalize Sharing Pronouns * No-CodeConf (https://webflow.com/nocodeconf) * No-CodeSchool (https://nocodeschool.co/) * Gender Expresion Does Not Always Equal Gender Identity 21:27 - Approaching Inclusive Language in the Written Word * Webflow Accessibility Checklist (https://webflow.com/accessibility/checklist) * Asking For Advice * Do Your Own Research/Work 29:18 - Creating Safe Places, Communities, and Environments * Absorbing and Asking * Authenticity (Cont'd) * Adaptation to Spaces * Shifting Energy 42:34 - Building Kula (https://kulayogadenver.com/) While Working in Tech * Community Care, Mutual Aid-Centered Model * Using Privilege to Pave the Way For More People * Alignment Reflections: John: The dichotomy between perfectionism and authenticity. Arty: Words carry power. Kate: Having an open heart is how you can put any of this into action. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: PRE-ROLL: Software is broken, but it can be fixed. Test Double's superpower is improving how the world builds software by building both great software and great teams. And you can help! Test Double is hiring empathetic senior software engineers and DevOps engineers. We work in Ruby, JavaScript, Elixir and a lot more. Test Double trusts developers with autonomy and flexibility at a remote, 100% employee-owned software consulting agency. Looking for more challenges? Enjoy lots of variety while working with the best teams in tech as a developer consultant at Test Double. Find out more and check out remote openings at link.testdouble.com/greater. That's link.testdouble.com/greater. JOHN: Welcome to Greater Than Code. I'm John Sawers and I'm here with Arty Starr. ARTY: Thanks, John. And I'm here with our guest today, Kate Marshall. Kate is a copywriter and inclusivity activist living in Denver. Since entering tech 4 years ago, she's toured the marketing org from paid efforts to podcast host, eventually falling in love with the world of copy. With this work, she hopes to make the web a more welcoming place using the power of words. Outside of Webflow, you'll find Kate opening Kula, a donation-based yoga studio, and bopping around the Mile High City with her partner, Leah. Welcome to the show, Kate. KATE: Hi, thank you so much! ARTY: So we always start our shows with our famous first question. What is your superpower and how did you acquire it? KATE: My superpower, I've been thinking about this. My superpower is empathy. It can also be one of my biggest downfalls [laughs], which I actually think happens more often than not with any superpower. I once heard from a child, actually, they always seem to know best that too much of the good, good is bad, bad. [laughter] So it turns out sometimes too much empathy can be too overwhelming for my system, but it has really driven everything that I've done in my career and my personal life. As for how I acquired it, I don't know that you can really acquire empathy. I think it's just something you have, or you don't. I've always been extremely intuitive and if you're going through something, it's likely that I can feel it. So I think I'm just [laughs] I hate to steal Maybelline's line, but I think I was born with it. JOHN: You talked about having a downside there and I've heard – and I'm curious, because most people talk about empathy as a positive thing and wanting more people to develop more empathy, but I'd to love hear you talk a little bit more about what you see the downsides are. KATE: Yeah. As someone who struggles with her own mental health issues, it can be really overwhelming for me to really take on whatever it is you're going through. Especially if it's a loved one, you tend to care more about what they're feeling, or what they're going through and an empath truly does absorb the energy of what's happening around them. So although, it does influence a lot of the work that I do, both in my full-time career and opening my yoga studio and everything in between, it's also hard sometimes to set those boundaries, to set healthy, really energetic boundaries. It's hard enough to voice your boundaries to people, but setting energetic boundaries is a whole other ballgame. So it can tend to feel overwhelming at times and bring you down if the energy around you is lower than what you want it to be. ARTY: So what kind of things do you do to try and set healthy, energetic boundaries? KATE: Ah. I do a lot of what some people would call, including myself, woo-woo practices. [chuckles] Obviously, I practice yoga. I teach yoga. I'm super passionate about holistic, or energetic healing so I go to Reiki regularly. I'm in therapy, talk therapy. All of those things combined help me build this essentially an energetic shield that I can psych myself up to use any time I'm leaving the apartment. If it feels a high energy day, or if I'm meeting up with a friend who I know is going through something, I really have to set those boundaries is. Same thing kind of at work, too. So much of the time that we spend in our lives is spent at work, or interacting with coworkers or colleagues and same thing. Everyone's going through their own journey and battles, and you have to carry that energetic shield around you wherever you go. JOHN: One way I've often thought about having those sort of boundaries is the more I know who I am, the more what the limits of me are and the barrier between me and the universe is. So the work that I do, which includes therapy and other things, to understand myself better and to feel like I know what's me and what's not me, helps me have those boundaries. Because then I know if there's something going on with someone else and I can relate to it, but not get swept up by it. KATE: Yeah. It's so funny you say that because I was actually just having a conversation with a friend a couple weeks ago that has really stuck with me. I was kind of feeling like I was messing up, essentially. Like I was not fully able to honor, or notice all of the triggers of the people around me. I think especially at the end of the year and as a queer person who is surrounded by queer community, it can be really tough around the holidays. So that energy can just be generally more charged and I was finding it difficult to reconcile with my idea of perfection in that I really want to honor every person around me who has triggers, who has boundaries that maybe haven't been communicated, and it almost feels like you're almost always crossing some sort of line, especially when you're putting those perfectionism expectations on yourself. My friend was like, “I don't think it's as much about being perfect at it as much as it is feeling like you're being authentically yourself and really authentically interacting with those people.” I don't know if I can really voice what the connection is between being able to honor triggers and boundaries of the people around you and feeling like your authentic self, but there's something about it that feels really connected to me. As long as you're trying your best and feeling like you're coming from a place of love, or connection, or compassion, or empathy whatever feels most to you, that's really all we can do, right? JOHN: Yeah. I feel like that authenticity is such a tricky concept because the thoughts that you're having about wanting to be perfect and take care of everyone and make sure you're not triggering anybody and not stepping on any of your own things, that's also part of you that is authentically you. You may not want it to be that way, but it still is. [laughs]. ARTY: Yeah. JOHN: So I still don't have a really clear sense in my mind what authenticity really is. I think probably it settles down to being a little bit more in the moment, rather than up in the thinking, the judging, the worrying, and being able to be present rather than – [overtalk] ARTY: Totally. JOHN: Those other things, but it is tricky. KATE: Yeah. It can be tricky. Humans, man. [laughter] It really is like being a human and part of the human experience is going to be triggering other people. It's going to be causing harm. It's going to be causing trauma to other humans. That's just part of it. I think the more you can get comfy with that idea and then also just really feeling like you're doing everything you can to stay connected to your core, which usually is in humans is a place of love. You're rooted in love for the people around you. How could you criticize yourself too much when you know that you're coming from that place? ARTY: I feel like things change, too as you get feedback. In the context of any intimate relationship where you've got emotionally connected relationship with another person where you are more unguarded and you're having conversations about things that are more personal, that have at least the potential to hurt and cause harm. Like sometimes we do things not meaning to and we end up hurting someone else accidentally, but once that happens—and hopefully, you have an open dialogue where you have a conversation about these things and learn about these things and adapt—then I think the thing to do is honor each person as an individual of we're all peoples and then figure out well, what can we do to adapt how we operate in this relationship and look out for both people's best interests and strive for a win-win. If we don't try and do that, like if we do things that we know we're harming someone else and we're just like, “Well, you should just put up with that,” [laughs], or whatever. I think that's where it becomes problematic is at the same time, we all have our own limitations and sometimes, the best thing to do is this relationship doesn't work. The way that we interact causes mutual harm and we can't this a win-win relationship and the best thing to do sometimes is to separate, even though it hurts because it's not working. KATE: Yeah. I feel like sometimes it's a classic case of intent versus impact, too. Like what's your intention going into a conversation and then how does that end up actually impacting that person and how can you honor that and learn from that? That's actually one thing that I love so much about being a writer is that words do carry so much power—written word, spoken word, whatever it is. They hold so much power and they can cause harm whether we want them to, or not. Part of being an empath is caring a lot about people's lived experiences and I really see it as more than putting – being a writer and doing this every day, I see it so much more than just putting words on a page and hoping signs up for the beta, or watches the thing registers, or the conference. It's words can foster connection, words can build worlds for people; they can make people feel like they belong and I believe that I'm on this planet to foster that connection with each other and with ourselves. So it all connects for me. It all comes back around whether we're talking about being in a romantic relationship, or our relationship with our parents, or our caregivers, or the work that I do every day it all comes back to that connection and really wanting to make people feel more connected to themselves, to each other, and like they have a place with words. ARTY: Yeah. It's very powerful. Words and narratives, I would say too, just thinking about the stories that we tell ourselves, the stories that we tell one another that become foundational in our culture. It's all built upon were words. Words shape the ideas in our head. They shape our thoughts. They shape how we reflect on things, how we feel about things, and then when people give us their words, we absorb those and then those become part of our own reflections. KATE: Yeah. ARTY: We affect one another a lot. I think that's one of the things I'm just seeing and talking to you is just thinking about how much we affect one another through our everyday interactions. KATE: Yeah, and I think a lot of this comes down to – there's something you said earlier that resonated in that it's really about the action you take after you cause the harm, or after you say the thing that hurts the other person and it's less about – and that's what made me say intent versus impact because you see the impact, you acknowledge it, and you make a decision to lessen that next time, or to be aware, more aware next time. This is really at the core of all the work I do for inclusive language as well. It's just the core principle of the words we use carry a lot of power. And I was actually just chatting with someone in the No-Code space. We connected through Webflow a couple weeks ago and he said, “I think people are so scared to get it wrong when it comes to inclusive language,” and I experience this all the time. People freeze in their tracks because they don't know how address someone and then they're so scared to get it wrong and they're like, “Oh, so sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry,” and they're so apologetic. And then that makes it worse and it's just a whole thing. In this conversation, we were talking specifically about misgendering people. My partner is non-binary. They're misgendered every single day when we go to restaurants, when we are just out and about. So this is something that is a part of my life every day. I told him that fear is so real and I carry that fear, too because I don't want to hurt people because I want to like get it right. It comes back to that perfectionism, that expectation that I put on myself, especially as a queer person to get it right all the time. But so much of the good stuff lies in how you approach it and then how you fix it when you mess it up. Like, it's not so much about the thing, it's about the way that you approach it. If you approach inclusive language with an open mind, an open heart, and a real willingness, like true willingness to learn, that's what's important going into it and then you're already doing the work. You're already an ally. You're already however you want to put it. And then when you use an ableist word, or you use a racist word, or you misgender someone, your actions for following that speak volumes. I think we can really get caught up in the action itself and it's more about how you go into it and then how you try to fix it. ARTY: So I'm thinking for listeners that might identify with being in a situation of being in the headlights and not knowing how to respond, or what to do. Other than what you were just talking about with coming at it with an open heart, are there any specific recommendations you might have for how to approach inclusive language? KATE: Yeah. Yeah, I have a couple really, really good ones. So often, the way to speak more inclusively, or to write more inclusively is just to get more specific about what you're trying to say. So instead of saying, “Oh, that's so crazy,” which is ableist, you can say, “Oh, that's so unheard of.” That's a good example. Or instead of unnecessarily gendering something you're saying like, “Oh, I'm out of wine, call the waitress over.” It's server instead of waiter, or waitress. You kind of start to essentially practice replacing these words and these concepts that are so ingrained into who we are, into society at large, and really starting to disrupt those systems within us with challenging the way that we've described things in the past. So just essentially getting more specific when we're speaking. When it comes to misgendering people specifically, it's really important to not be overly apologetic when you misgender someone. I can give an example. If a server, for example, comes up to me and my partner and says, “Can I get you ladies anything else?” And I say, “Oh, actually my partner uses they/them pronouns. They are not a lady,” and they say, “Oh my God, I'm so sorry. Oh shit!” And then that makes my partner feel bad [chuckles] for putting them in that position and then it's kind of this like ping pong back and forth of just bad feelings. The ideal scenario, the server would say, “Oh, excuse me, can I get you all anything else?” Or, “Can I get you folks anything else?” Or just, if you're speaking about someone who uses they/them pronouns and you say, “Yeah, and I heard she, I mean, they did this thing.” You just quickly correct it and move on. Don't make it into a production. It's okay. We get it. Moving on. Just try not to overthink it, basically. [laughs] Get more specific, but don't overthink it. Isn't that like, what a dichotomy. [laughter] JOHN: That ties back to what you were saying about perfectionism also, right? Like you said, you freeze up if you try and be perfect about it all the time, because you can't always know what someone's pronouns are and so, you have to make a guess at some point and maybe you're going to guess wrong. But it's how you deal with it by not making everybody uncomfortable with the situation. [laughs] KATE: Yeah. JOHN: And like you said, ping pong of bad feelings just amplifies, the whole thing blows out of proportion. You can just be like, “Oh, my apologies.” Her, they, whatever it is and then very quickly move on and then it's forgotten the next minute. Everything moves on from that, but you're not weeping and gnashing and – [laughter] KATE: Yeah. JOHN: Well, it means you don't have to keep feeling bad about it for the next 3 days either, like everyone can move on from that point. KATE: Right. Yeah, and just doing your best to not do it again. JOHN: Yeah. KATE: Once you learn, it's important to really let that try to stick. If you're having trouble, I have a friend who really has trouble with they/them pronouns and they practice with their dog. They talk to their dog about this person and they use they/them pronouns in that. Practice really does make perfect in this – not perfect, okay. Practice really does make progress in this kind of scenario and also, normalize sharing pronouns. JOHN: Yeah. KATE: It's more than just putting it in your Zoom name. It's more than just putting it in your Instagram bio. A good example of really starting this conversation was during Webflow's No-Code Conf, our yearly conference. It was mostly online and we had a live portion of it and every single time we introduced someone new, or introduced ourselves, we said, “My name is Kate Marshall, my pronouns are she/her, and I'm so happy to be here with you today.” Or just asking if you don't know, or if you're in a space with someone new, you say, “What are your pronouns?” It's really is that easy. Webflow made some year-round pride mech that we launched over the summer and we have a cute beanie that says “Ask me my pronouns.” It's like, it's cool to ask. It's fine to ask and that's so much better than unintentionally misgendering someone. It's going to take some time to get there, but normalize it. JOHN: Yeah, and I think there's one key to that that has always stuck out of my mind, which is don't ask pronouns just for the people you think might have different pronouns than you would expect. KATE: Yes. JOHN: Make it part of all the conversations so it's not just singling somebody out of a group and saying, “I want to know your pronouns because they're probably different.” That's not good. KATE: Right, because gender expression does not always equal gender identity. JOHN: Yeah. KATE: You can't know someone's gender identity from the way that they express their gender and that's also another huge misconception that I think it's time we talk more about. JOHN: So we've been talking a lot about conversations and person-to-person interactions and inclusive language there. But a lot of what you do is it on the writing level and I imagine there's some differences there. So I'm curious as to what you see as far as the things that you do to work on that in the written form. KATE: Yeah. So this is actually a really great resource that I was planning on sharing with whoever's listening, or whoever's following along this podcast. There is a really wonderful inclusive language guidelines that we have published externally at Webflow and I own it, I update it regularly as different things come in and inclusive language is constantly evolving. It will never be at a final resting point and that's also part of why I love it so much because you truly are always growing. I'm always learning something new about inclusive language, or to make someone feel more included with the words that I'm writing. This table has, or this resource has ableist language, racist language, and sexist language tables with words to avoid, why to avoid them, and some alternatives and just some general principles. I reference it constantly. Like I said, it's always evolving. I actually don't know how many words are on there, but it's a good amount and it's a lot of things have been surfaced to me that I had no idea were racist. For instance, the word gypped. Like if you say, “Oh, they gypped me” is actually racist. It's rooted in the belief that gypsy people are thieves. [chuckles] So it's things like that we really kind of go deep in there and I reference this constantly. Also, ALS language is a really big consideration, especially in the tech space. So instead of – and this can be avoided most of the time, not all of the time. We do work with a really wonderful accessibility consultant who I run things by constantly. Shout out to Michele. Oh, she was actually on the podcast at one point. Michele Williams, shout out. Lovely human. So a good example is instead of “watch now,” or “listen now,” it's “explore this thing,” “browse this thing,” “learn more”. Just try not to get so specific about the way that someone might be consuming the information that I'm putting down on the page. Stuff like that. It truly does come down to just getting more specific as just a general principle. JOHN: So it sounds to me some of the first steps you take are obviously being aware that you have to mold your language to be more accessible and inclusive, then it's informing yourself of what the common pitfalls are. As you said, you have consultants, you've got guides, you've got places where you can gather this information and then once you have that, then you build that into your mental process for writing what you're writing. KATE: Yeah, and truly just asking questions and this goes for everyone. No one would ever – if I reached out to our head of DEI, Mariah, and said, “Mariah, is this thing offensive?” Or, “How should I phrase this thing to feel more inclusive to more people?” She would never come back at me and say, “Why are you asking me this? You should already know this,” and that is the attitude across the board. I would never fault someone for coming to me and asking me how to phrase something, or how to write something to make it feel better for more people. So it's really a humbling experience [laughs] to be in this position. Again, words carry so much power and I just never take for granted, the power essentially that I have, even if it is just for a tech company. A lot of people are consuming that and I want to make them feel included. JOHN: Yeah. The written face of a company is going to tell readers a lot about the culture of the company, the culture of the community around the product. KATE: Yeah. JOHN: Whether they're going to be welcome there, like what their experience is going to be like if they invest their time to learn about it. So it's really important to have that language there and woven into everything that's written, not just off the corner on the DEI page. KATE: Yeah. That's what I was just about to say is especially if you're a company that claims to prioritize DEI, you better be paying close attention to the words that you're using in your product, on your homepage, whatever it is, your customer support. I've worked with the customer support team at Webflow to make sure that the phrasing feels good for people. It truly does trickle into every single asset of a business and it's ongoing work that does not just end at, like you said, putting it on a DEI page. Like, “We care about this,” and then not actually caring about it. That sucks. [laughs] JOHN: Oh, the other thing before we move too far on from last topic, you're talking about asking for advice. I think one of the keys there, a, being humble and just saying, “I would like to know,” and you're very unlikely to get criticized for simply asking how something can be better. But I feel like one of the keys to doing that well is also not arguing with the person you've asked after they give you an answer. KATE: Right. Yes. Especially if that person is a part of the community that your words are affecting, or that your question is affecting. It's such a tricky balance because it's really not the queer community's job to educate people who are not queer about inclusive language. But when that person is willing to share their knowledge with the you, or willing to share their experience with you, you've got to listen. Your opinions about their lived experience don't come into that conversation, or shouldn't come into that conversation. It's not questioning the information that you're given, but then it's also taking that and doing your own research and asking more people and having conversations with your friends and family trying to widen this breadth of information and knowledge as a community. Like I said, kind of dismantling the things that we're taught growing up by capitalism, by society, everything that kind of unnecessarily separates and then doing better next time. I've actually had conversations with people who are very curious, who come to me with questions and then the next time I interact with them, they're just back to factory settings. That's so disappointing and just makes me feel like my energy could have been better spent having that conversation with someone who is more receptive. So I think it really is just about being open to hearing someone's experience, not questioning it, and then really taking that in and doing the work on your own. JOHN: Yeah, and part of that doing the work is also for the things that you can Google for the things where you can look at it from the guide, do that first before asking for someone's time. KATE: Yeah. JOHN: So that they're not answering the same 101 questions every time that are just written in 15 different blog posts. KATE: Yes. Especially if you're asking a marginalized person to do the work for you. JOHN: Yeah. KATE: Intersectionality matters and putting more work on the shoulders of people who are already weighed down by so much ain't it. [laughs] ARTY: Well, I was wanting to go back to your original superpower that you talked about with empathy. We talked a lot about some of these factors that make empathy of a difficult thing of over empathizing and what kind of factors make that hard. But as a superpower, what kind of superpowers does that give you? KATE: Ah, just being able to really connect to a lot of different people. I mentioned earlier that I believe it's my purpose, it's my life's work on this planet at this time to connect people to themselves and to each other. The more asking I can do and the more absorbing I can do of other people's experiences, the better I am at being able to connect with them and being able to make them feel like they belong in whatever space I'm in. I can't connect with someone if I don't try and get it. Try and get what they're going through, or what their experiences are. That's why I do so much time just talking to people, and that's why I love yoga and why I want to start this studio and open this space. Because we live in a world where we don't have a lot of spaces, especially marginalized communities don't have a lot of spaces that feel like they're being understood, or they're truly being heard, or seen. Me being an empath, I'm able to access that in people more and therefore, bringing them closer to safer spaces, or safer people, safer communities where they really feel like they can exist and be their full, whole, and complete selves. It's really special. ARTY: We also touched this concept of authenticity and it seems like that also comes up in this context of creating these safe spaces and safe communities where people can be their whole selves. So when you think about authenticity, we talked about this being a difficult and fuzzy word, but at the same time, it does have some meaning as to what that means, and these challenges with regards to boundaries and things. But I'm curious, what does authenticity mean to you? How does that come into play with this idea of safety and creating these safe spaces for others as well? KATE: Yeah. I feel like there's so much in there. I think one of the biggest things to accept about the word authenticity, or the concept of authenticity is that it's always changing and it means something different to everyone. We are all authentic to ourselves in different ways and at different times in our lives and I think it's so important to honor the real evolution of feeling authentic. There are times and days where I'm like who even am. It's like what even, but there's always this sort of core, root part of me that I don't lose, which is what we've been talking about. This ability to connect, this feeling of empathy, of compassion, of wanting to really be a part of the human experience. That, to me, kind of always stays and I feel like that's the authentic, like the real, real, authentic parts of me. There are layers to it that are always changing and as people, we are also always evolving and always changing. So those different parts of authenticity could be what you wear that make you feel like your most authentic self. It can be how you interact with your friends, or how you interact with the person, getting your popcorn at the movies, or whatever it is. Those can all feel like parts of your authentic self. That means something different to everyone. But I think that's such a beautiful part about it and about just being human is just how often these things are changing for us and how important it is to honor someone's authenticity, whatever that means for them at that time. Even if it's completely different from what you knew about them, or how you knew them before. It's this constant curiosity of yourself and of others, really getting deeply curious about what feels like you. ARTY: I was wondering about safety because you were talking about the importance of creating these safe communities and safe environments where people could be their whole, complete selves, which sounds a lot like the authenticity thing, but you trying to create space for that for others. KATE: Yeah. Well, the reality of safety is that there's no one space that will ever be a “safe space for everyone,” and that's why I like to say safer spaces, or a safer space for people because you can never – I feel like it's all coming full circle where you can never meet every single person exactly where they need to be met in any given moment. You can just do your best to create spaces that feel safer to them and you do that with authentic connection, with getting curious about who they are and what they love, and just making sure that your heart's really in it. [chuckles] Same with inclusive language. It's all about the way you approach it to make someone feel safer. But I do think it's an I distinction to remember. You're never going to be safe for everyone. A space you create is never going to be safe for everyone. The best you can do is just make it safer for more people. ARTY: When I think about just the opposite of that, of times that I've gone into a group where I haven't felt safe being myself and then when you talk of about being your complete whole self, it's like bringing a whole another level of yourself to a space that may not really fit that space and that seems like it's okay, too. Like we don't necessarily have to bring our full self to all these different spaces, but whatever space we're a part of, we kind of sync up and adapt to it. So if I'm in one space and I feel the kind of vibe, energy, context of what's going on, how people are interacting, the energy they put forth when they speak with whatever sorts of words that they use. I'm going to feel that and adapt to that context of what feels safe and then as more people start adapting to that, it creates a norm that other people that then come and see what's going on in this group come to an understanding about what the energy in the room is like. KATE: Yeah. ARTY: And all it takes is one person to bring a different energy into that to shift the whole dynamic of things. KATE: Yeah. The reality is you'll never be able to change every space and I think that's such a good point. It makes me feel like saying you have to be protective of your energy. If you go into a space and it just doesn't feel right, or there's someone who is in the room that doesn't feel safe to you, or that doesn't feel like they're on the same page as you, it's okay to not feel like you need to change the world in that space. Like you don't always have to go into a space and say, “I'm going to change it.” That is how change is made when you feel safe enough. That's why it's so important to foster that energy from the jump. That's just a foundational thing at a company in a yoga studio, in a home, at a restaurant. It can be changed, but it really should be part of the foundation of making a safer space, or a more inclusive space. Because otherwise, you're asking the people who don't feel safe, who are usually marginalized people, or intersectionally marginalized in some way. You're asking them essentially to put in the work to change what you should have done as the foundation of your space. So it's a such a delicate balance of being protective of your energy and really being able to feel out the places where you feel okay saying something, or making a change, or just saying, “No, this isn't worth it for me. I'm going to go find a space that actually feels a little bit better, or that I feel more community in.” ARTY: And it seems like the other people that are in the group, how those people respond to you. If you shift your energy, a lot of times the people that are in the group will shift their energy in kind. Other times, in a different space, you might try to shift energy and then there's a lot of resistance to that where people are going a different way and so, you get pushed out of the group energy wise. These sorts of dynamics, you can feel this stuff going on of just, I just got outcast out of this group. Those are the kinds of things, though that you need to protect your own energy of even if I'm not included in this group, I can still have a good relationship with me and I can still like me and I can think I'm still pretty awesome and I can find other groups of folks that like me. It definitely, at least for me, I tend to be someone who's like, I don't know, I get out grouped a lot. [laughs] But at the same time, I've gotten used to that and then I find other places where I've got friends that love me and care about me and stuff. So those are recharge places where I can go and get back to a place where I feel solid and okay with myself, and then I'm much more resilient then going into these other spaces and stuff where I might not be accepted, where I might have to be kind of shielded and guarded and just put up a front, and operate in a way that makes everyone else feel more comfortable. KATE: Yeah, and isn't it so powerful to feel cared for? ARTY: I love that. KATE: Like just to feel cared for by the people around you is everything. It's everything. That's it. Just to feel like you are wanted, or you belong. To feel cared for. It can exist everywhere is the thing. In your Slack group, or whatever, you can make people feel cared for. I have never regretted reaching out to a coworker, or a friend, or whoever an acquaintance and saying, “Hey, I love this thing about you,” or “Congratulations on this rad thing you just launched,” or whatever. It's the care that's so powerful. ARTY: I feel like this is one of those things where we can learn things from our own pain and these social interactions and stuff. One of the things that I've experienced is you're in a group and you say something and nobody responds. [laughs] KATE: Yeah. ARTY: And after doing that for a while, you feel like you're just shouting into the void and nobody hears you and it's just this feeling of like invisibility. In feeling that way myself, one of the things I go out of my way to do is if somebody says something, I at least try and respond, acknowledge them, let them know that they're heard, they're cared about, and that there's somebody there on the other side [chuckles] and they're not shouting into the wind because I hate that feeling. It's an awful feeling to feel invisible like that. KATE: Awful, yeah. ARTY: But we can learn from those experiences and then we can use those as opportunities to understand how we can give in ways that are subtle, that are often little things that are kind of ignored, but they're little things that actually make a really big difference. KATE: Yeah, the little things. It really is the little things, isn't it? [laughs] Like and it's just, you can learn from your experiences, but you can also say, “I'm not doing this right now.” You can also check out. If you are giving and giving. and find that you're in the void essentially, more often than not, you can decide that that's no longer are worth your time, your energy, your care, and you can redirect that care to somewhere else that's going to reciprocate, or that's going to give you back that same care and that's so important, too. JOHN: Yeah, and it sounds like starting a yoga studio is not a trivial undertaking and obviously, you're highly motivated to create this kind of an environment in the world. So is there anything more you'd like to say about that because that ties in very closely with what we're talking about? KATE: Yeah. It's so weird to work full-time and be so passionate about my tech job and then turn around and be like, “I'm opening a yoga studio.” It's such a weird, but again, it's all connected at the root, at the core of what I'm trying to do in this world. The thing about Kula is that it's really built on this foundational mutual aid model. So being donation-based, it's really pay what you can, if you can. And what you pay, if you're able to give an extra $10 for the class that you take, that's going to pay for someone else's experience, who is unable to financially contribute to take that class. That's the basis of community care, of mutual aid and it's really this heart-based business model that is really tricky. I'm trying to get a loan right now and [chuckles] it's really hard to prove business financials when you have a donation-based model and you say, “Well, I'm going to guess what people might donate per class on average.” So it's been a real journey, [laughs] especially with today's famous supply chain issues that you hear about constantly in every single industry. I have an empty space right now. It needs to be completely built out. Construction costs are about triple what they should be. Again, coming from this real mutual aid community care centered model, it's really hard, but I have to keep coming back. I was just telling my partner about this the other day, I have to keep coming back to this core idea, or this real feeling that I don't need to have a beautifully designed space to create what I'm trying to create. When I started this, I envisioned just a literal empty room [chuckles] with some people in it and a bathroom and that's it. So of course, once I saw the designs, I was like, “Oh, I love this can lighting that's shining down in front of the bathroom door.” It's like so whatever, stereotypical. Not stereotypical, but surface level stuff. I really have had to time and time again, return to this longing almost for a space that feels safer for me, for my community, for Black people, for disabled people, for trans people, for Asian people; we don't have a lot of spaces that feel that way and that's just the reality. So it's a real delicate balance of how do I like – this is a business and I need money, [laughs] but then I really want this to be rooted in mutual aid and community care. It comes back to that car and that inclusivity, creating authentic connections. It's tricky out there for a queer woman entrepreneur with no collateral. [laughs] It's a tricky world out there, but I think we'll flip it someday. I really think pioneering this idea, or this business model at least where I'm at in Denver, I think it's going to start the conversation in more communities and with more people who want to do similar things and my hope is that that will foster those conversations and make it more accessible to more people. JOHN: Yeah, and I think every time someone manages to muster up the energy, the capital, and the community effort to put something like this together, it makes it just slightly easier for someone else a, they can learn the lessons and b, they're more examples of this thing operating in the world. So it becomes more possible in people's minds and you can build some of that momentum there. KATE: Yeah. And of course, it's really important to note and to remember that I come from a place of immense privilege. I have a great job in tech. I'm white. I am upper middle class. Technically, I'm “straight passing,” which is a whole other concept, but it is a thing and this is the way that I'm choosing to use my privilege to hopefully pave the way for more people. I do not take for granted the opportunity that I'm given and like I said, intersectionality matters and all of that, but I still have a lot of privilege going into this that I hope turns into something good for more people. ARTY: It also takes a special kind of person to be an entrepreneur because you really have to just keep on going. No matter any obstacle that's in your way, you've just got to keep on going and have that drive, desire, and dream to go and build something and make it happen and your superpowers probably going to help you out with that, too. It sounds like we've got multiple superpowers because I think you got to have superpowers to be an entrepreneur in itself. KATE: Yeah. I don't know, man. It's such a weird feeling to have because it just feels like it's what I'm supposed to be doing. That's it. It doesn't feel like I'm like – yes, it's a calling and all of that, but it just feels like the path and that, it feels more, more natural than anything I guess, is what I'm trying to say. The more people follow that feeling, the more authentic of a world, the more connected of a world we're going to have. I see a lot of people doing this work, similar things, and it makes me so happy to see. The words of one of my therapists, one of my past therapists told me, “Always stick with me,” and it was right around the time I was kind of – so I'd started planning before COVID hit and then COVID hit and I had to pause for about a year, a little bit less than a year. It was right around the time I was filing my LLC and really starting to move forward. It was actually December 17th of last year that I filed my LLC paperwork. So it's been a little over a year now. He told me, “How much longer are you willing to wait to give the community this thing that you want to give them? How much are you willing to make them wait for this space?” And I was like, “Yesterday. Yesterday.” Like, “I want to give people this space immediately,” and that has truly carried me through. This supply chain stuff is no joke. [laughs] and it has really carried me through some of the more doubtful moments in this journey. Yeah, and I feel like, man, what powerful words. Like, I just want to keep saying them because they are such powerful words to me. How much longer are you willing to make them wait? And it's like, I don't want to. [chuckles] So I guess I'm going to go do it. [laughter] Throw caution to the wind. [laughs] JOHN: Well, I think that ties back into what you were talking about is as you were thinking about designing the space and what kind of buildout you're going to need, and that can be a guide star for what actually needs to be there. What's the actual MVP for this space? Does it need a perfect coat of paint, or is what's there good enough? Does it need all the things arranged just so in the perfect lighting, or does it just need to exist and have people in the room and you can really focus in on what's going to get you there? And then of course, you iterate like everything else, you improve over time, but. KATE: Right. JOHN: I love that concept of just cut out everything that's in the way of this happening right now as much as possible. KATE: Yeah, and what a concept, I think that can be applied to so many things. Who am I trying to serve with this thing and what do I need to do to get there? It doesn't have to be this shiny, beautiful well-designed creation. It just needs to serve people. The people that you want to serve in the best way possible, and for me, that's getting this space open and actually having it in action. ARTY: I think once you find something that feels in alignment with you, you seem to have lots of clarity around just your sense of purpose, of what you want to move toward of a deep connection with yourself. One thing I found with that is no matter how much you get rejected by various groups in the world, if you can be congruent and authentic with yourself and follow that arrow, that once you start doing that, you find other people that are in resonance with you. They're out there, but you don't find them until you align with yourself. KATE: Yeah. Community. Community is so powerful and I love that you just said alignment because that really is truly what it is. It's finding the thing that makes you feel like you're doing something good and that feels authentic to your core, to those core principles of you that never really change. The things that are rooted in love, the things that are rooted in compassion, or whatever it is you care about. Community, that alignment is absolutely key. It's also, when I say I was born with my superpower of being an empath, this desire to create this space feels, it feels like I was also born with this desire, or born with this alignment. So I feel like so many times it's just going back to the basics of who you are. ARTY: Like you're actualizing who you are. KATE: Yeah. Like full alignment, enlightenment, that all kind of falls into place when you're really making the effort to be connected to your core. ARTY: It seems like a good place to do reflections. So at the end of the show, we usually go around and do final reflections and takeaways, final thoughts that you have and you get to go last, Kate. JOHN: There are a whole lot of different things that I've been thinking about here, but I think one of the ones that's sticking with me is the dichotomy between perfectionism and authenticity, and how I feel like they really are pulling against one another and that, which isn't to say things can't be perfect and authentic at the same time. But I think perfectionism is usually a negative feeling. Like you should do something, you're putting a lot of pressure, there's a lot of anxiety around perfectionism and that is pretty much an opposition to being authentically yourself. It's hard to be in touch with yourself when you're wrapped up in all those anxieties and so, thinking about the two of them together, I hadn't made that connection before, but I think that's something that's interesting that I'll be thinking about for a while. ARTY: I think the thing that's going to stick with me, Kate is you said, “Our words carry so much power,” and I think about our conversation today out just vibes in the room and how that shifts with the energy that we bring to the room, all of these subtle undercurrent conversations that we're having, and then how a sort of energy vibe becomes established. And how powerful even these really little tiny things we do are. We had this conversation around inclusive language and you gave so many great details and specifics around what that means and how we can make little, small alterations to some of these things that are just baked into us because of our culture and the words that we hear, phrasing and things that we hear, that we're just unaware of the impact of things. Just by paying attention and those little subtle details of things and coming at things with an open heart, regardless of how we might stumble, or mess things up, how much of a difference that can make because our words, though carry so much power. KATE: Yeah. And the thing you just said about having an open heart is truly how you can put any of this into action, how you can remain open to learning about authenticity, or what it feels like to not fall into a trap of perfectionism, or how to speak, or write, or interact more inclusively with other human beings. I feel like being open, being openminded, being open-hearted, whatever it is, is just really a superpower on its own. Remaining open and vulnerable in today's world is hard work. It does not come naturally to so many people, especially when you're dealing with your own traumas and your own individual interactions and maybe being forced into spaces where you don't feel safe. To remain open is such a tool for making other people feel cared for. So if that's the goal, I would say just being open is truly your superpower. JOHN: I think that's the quote I'm going to take with me: being open is the key to making people feel cared for. KATE: Yes. I love that. ARTY: Well, thank you for joining us on the show, Kate. It's been a pleasure to have you here. KATE: Thank you so much. This has been just the energy boost I needed. Special Guest: Kate Marshall.

This week, Annie talks about taking part in the music video of her dreams, while Jess explains why she may never change her surname. Then, they welcome a friend to the show, Kate, who openly discusses her experience with being asexual. A fantastic pole dancer and aerialist, Kate intelligently and openly talks about what asexuality is to her, what it is not, and the questions she wishes people would stop asking. She shares when she knew she was asexual, and how we can better understand viewpoints like hers.   In This Episode You'll Hear About:   What is being asexual? Is it a sexual orientation? A state of mind? Does being asexual really mean you aren't attracted to anyone? Do asexual people masturbate? How is being asexual different from celibacy? Kate shares when she realized she was asexual and felt safe enough to share it with her community. Resources for people who feel like they may be asexual but are looking for support. Has Kate ever in a relationship or found anyone sexually attractive? Are asexual men and women judged differently? There needs to be more education around menstruation in school for young women growing up. A few different terms around asexuality, including a-romantic. There are many different definitions on the asexual spectrum that people can choose to identify with.   Quote: “We were all devastated and smelling of cream.” “Jess fancies pillows...and….men.” “There's this idea that growing up means getting interested in sex.” - Kate “You are not going to be able to tell when someone is a-sexual.” - Kate Slide Into Our DM's: @talesofthenetherregions   Annie - @annienorrispole | Jessica - @jessicadeebank   Mentioned:   https://www.thetrevorproject.org/trvr_support_center/asexual/   https://www.stonewall.org.uk/about-us/news/six-ways-be-ally-asexual-people

Welcome back to the Neuroscience Meets Social and Emotional Learning Podcast, for Brain Fact Friday, episode #140 and our first Livestream event. I'm Andrea Samadi, author and educator from Toronto, Canada, now living in the United States, (but broadcasting this livestream from my balcony in HI with my co-host Katherine Alexander-Dobrovolskia who is joining us from London, United Kingdom) and like many of our listeners, we have both been fascinated with learning and understanding the science behind high performance strategies in our schools, sports, and the workplace. If you have been listening to our podcast, you will know that we've uncovered that if we want to improve our social and emotional skills, and experience success in our work and personal lives, it all begins with an understanding of our brain. For our FIRST Livestream event, I've invited my colleague, and good friend Katherine Alexander- Dobrovolskaia, the owner of Talent Investors, who is joining us from London, United Kingdom. Welcome Kate, thank you for coming on my first Live event. You know why I asked you to be here today, right? Kate: give me a guess…maybe something about the fact we are broadcasting from Hawaii…maybe because we've been friends for almost 10 years, meeting in John Assaraf's forum, and now taking our Neurocoaching Certification together? You tell me…. Andrea: Kate, since June is the anniversary of when we launched this podcast (June 2019) and now that we are going into our third year of creating bi-weekly episodes, approaching 100K downloads, reaching over 143 countries, I wanted to do something different.  Then add to the mix that this month I hit that mile marker of turning 50, I knew it was time to shake things up. And you've always had an eye for innovation with the work you did with your Best Boss Series[i]. When you did that series, interviewing innovators in business, what do you think stuck out with leaders who rose to the top? What kinds of things did you notice they were doing differently from the rest? Kate: Answer about what you learned from your Best Boss Series. Andrea: Well, since this is Brain Fact Friday, I did want to share something we've recently learned from our Neuroscience coaching training that we are doing together, and invite the listeners to ask questions in the chat. Anything you'd like to know after listening to this podcast if you have been following us, from how we launched, to secrets of inviting such high-quality guests. What do you want to know? I'll let Kate answer the questions, and I'll sit back and relax on my balcony. Q1: Andrea to Kate: Kate, what would you say is something you have learned recently about the brain, as it has applied to your personal and professional life? Kate: Answer…something about the brain that's helped you personally/professionally? What about you, Andrea? What's something important that sticks out for you? Andrea: It was probably from episode #100 with Mary Helen Immordino-Yang “We feel, therefore we learn” and the idea that when we connect emotions to learning, what we are studying goes into long-term memory. This brings in Friederike Fabritius' How the Brain Learns book and her work with peak performance with the idea that we must have FUN with our work to hit those highest levels of peak performance and productivity. Andrea: What about the listeners? Let me know if you have learned anything from this podcast, or any other area about the brain, and how you've used these ideas for improved results? Answer anything that comes in on the chat…. Q2: Andrea to Kate: I've known you for some time now, I think we were accountability partners at one point in time, helping each other stay on track with the projects we were working on. And then life hits, and you've had some extremely difficult times, in addition to the Pandemic. How have you been able to stay on track with life, positivity and look after everything that's going on personally for you if you want to share what's happened in your personal life that's really knocked things off course for you? How are you working with the fears that you have around everything you are dealing with? Kate: How about you, Andrea? Andrea: During difficult times, I've usually found that sticking to routine has helped. Probably because the brain like predictability and doesn't like change, so keeping a daily routine that starts with consistent sleep/wake times has been a good starting point. Then building everything else around that. I had no idea that research has shown that this consistent sleep/wake time is an important marker for productivity (from the interview with Kristen Holmes) from Whoop.com, so much so, that when you wear the Whoop device, it tells you how consistent you are with your sleep/wake times and this can help your health in ways that research is just discovering to be beneficial. I haven't had anything as difficult as you have had to deal with, but I am sure our listeners have. But for those BIG fears…like fear of someone close to you with health problems, I have found Dr. Carolyn Leif's work to be helpful. I did a podcast on her newest book, Cleaning Up Your Mental Mess: 5 Simple Scientifically Proven Steps to Reduce Stress, Anxiety and Toxic Thinking[ii] Andrea: For our listeners?  What have you been doing to stay productive during difficult times? Q3: Andrea to Kate: Kate, I shared with you that an area that I know we could improve on in my household (other than sleep which is so easy to master in HI—I've had perfect sleep scores this week because there's no agenda or time pressure on vacation) but other than this area, it would be our meals. With the fact that we all have different schedules (the girls train at the gym every night during the school year, so it's not like we can sit down as a family like my parents did with us growing up) so my dinner is usually at my desk while I'm working and if my husband is home, we will eat together, but it's not always this simple. So, you sent me an incredible cook book that we can use to try some new recipes together. Can you share how cooking as a family has helped you? Kate: answers how cooking as a family has helped them to stay closer. Andrea: How about our listeners? What have you been doing to stay healthy with meals? Or sleep? Since we can't be on vacation all the time and depending on where you live, it might be difficult to still shop for groceries. My Mom told me they just started to open up shopping in Toronto, but before that, I was shipping her items from Amazon that she couldn't get locally. Q4: Andrea to Kate: I know you are a reader, and you always keep me up to date with books that you have been learning from. What books have you been reading this year? Kate: What about you, Andrea, what books are you reading? Andrea: I've always got the book of the next person I'm interviewing on my phone, and love this part of the podcast. Where else in the world do you get to read someone's book and then email them and say “hey, can I pick your brain on your book?” and they say sure, and you get to dive deeper into what they have written, and share it? This is the part of the podcast that amazes me every day. I've got to mention Mandy Krueckebrg Lengrich, a longtime listener of the podcast, who has sent me at least 10 books to read/research. I want to spend some time with these books that she is picking up from her studies in the field of educational neuroscience. (Gabor Mate, Nicole Tetreault/Seth Perler) and her most recent referral of the book Into the Magic Shop by James R Doty, M.D. I've also been fascinated with Dr. Bruce Perry's work, (he's just released a book with Oprah and my friends stop me on the hiking trails saying…you need to interview Dr. Perry). Episode #53 “Self-Regulation and Your Brain: How to Bounce Back Towards Resiliency” was inspired by his recent webinar series. I asked him to be a guest on the podcast last June 2020 and he was in the middle of writing his book “What Happened to You” with Oprah, and he told me to contact him when he's finished the book. A year later, his book is out, and I feel like a stalker, but I don't want to miss an opportunity like that, so I contacted him again, and we are working on getting him on the schedule for October, so this book is always open on my phone. I've also got a fun interview coming in August with Mike Rousell on how surprise impacts the brain. Who doesn't like surprises? His book comes out in September, so the interview will be released right before this book,  Andrea: What books are our listeners reading? Q5: Andrea to Kate: You've known me for a while, and I know you love to push me beyond my limits, which I love.  We can all use a friend who doesn't let you get comfortable. If you look at the speakers I've had on the podcast, who would you like to see me interview next? Give me a list of some people. Andrea: to listeners: who would the listeners like to hear on the podcast next? Send me some ideas. In Today's Brain Fact Friday You Will Learn: ✔︎ What brain-based strategy Andrea and co-host Kate have found to be the most useful in their personal and professional life? Share your favorite brain-based strategy in the Livestream chat. ✔︎ How Kate has been able to stay positive during some difficult life experiences. Share what you have been doing to stay positive and productive during times of difficulty/challenge. ✔︎ How Kate has used cooking as a family to keep healthy habits during the Pandemic. Share anything you have been doing as a family to stay healthy and productive. ✔︎ What books are Kate and Andrea reading now? Share what books have been inspiring you. ✔︎Who does Kate think Andrea should have as a guest on the podcast? Share ideas of speakers/authors you would like to see on the podcast. What else? Any other thoughts? Kate, I want to thank you for almost a decade of friendship, mentorship and learning. Thank you for co-hosting this livestream with me, it's been a blast. Thanks to all the listeners who have downloaded an episode, and are supporting the podcast. Thank you for joining the Livestream and sharing your ideas with us. I'm off to the beach now, and hope everyone enjoys their weekend. REFERENCES: [i] Best Boss Series with Katherine Alexander Dobrovolskaia https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/best-boss-series-first-year-conclusions-alexander-dobrovolskaia/ [ii] Neuroscience Meets Social and Emotional Learning Podcast EPISODE #106 Review of Dr. Caroline Leaf's Cleaning Up Your Mental Mess https://www.achieveit360.com/review-of-neuroscientist-and-best-selling-author-dr-caroline-leafs-cleaning-up-your-mental-mess-coming-march-2nd/

Kate Kordsmeier is a writer, educator, and creative entrepreneur. After almost a decade as a freelance journalist, Kate founded Root + Revel, a holistic wellness blog with a focus on mind-body-soul health. Once the blog blossomed into a 6-figure business, she started the The Six-Figure Blog Academy, a digital course dedicated to helping others start their own profitable businesses. Kate is also the host of the Success with Soul Podcast. Her mission is to empower women to create a profitable, purpose-filled online business and build a life of freedom and flexibility, without selling their soul. Today Kate shares her story about overcoming post-pill PCOS. An episode you won’t want to miss! Topics discussed in today's episode: Kate’s menstrual cycle and hormonal contraceptives history What inspired Kate to start her holistic wellness blog, Root + Revel Kate’s journey coming off of the pill and normalizing her menstrual cycle Challenges with hormonal contraceptives Kate’s experience with her healthcare providers and her diagnosis with PCOS How the pill can relate to gut issues Why healthcare providers always lean on the pill as the cure Kate’s experience with the IUD How Kate heeled her body naturally Kate’s symptoms after getting off the pill that concerned her she had PCOS Kate’s experience and how long it took her to normalize her period How the pill masks female health and cycle issues Kate's life after her menstrual cycle normalized Connect with Kate: You can connect with Kate on Facebook, Instagram and on her website. Resources mentioned: Fertility Awareness Mastery Mentorship (FAMM) Class of 2021 The Fifth Vital Sign: Master Your Cycles & Optimize Your Fertility (Book) | Lisa Hendrickson-Jack Fertility Awareness Mastery Charting Workbook Fertility Awareness Mastery Online Self-Study Program Related podcasts & blog posts: [On-Air Client Session] FFP 279 | Post-Pill Amenorrhea | Lisa & Jennifer [On-Air Client Session] FFP 278 | Regulating Your Cycles Post-Pill | Lisa & Natalie [On-Air Client Session] FFP 275 | Recovering from Hypothalamic Amenorrhea | Lisa & Catherine FFP 270 | Hypothalamic Amenorrhea | How Laura Got Her Period Back 5 Years After Coming Off The Pill | Laura Bruner FFP 223 | Overcoming Hypothalamic Amenorrhea | No Period. Now What? | Dr. Nicola Rinaldi, PhD FFP 163 | PCOS & Fertility | Improving Fertility & Balancing Hormones with Diet & Lifestyle Changes | Robyn Srigley [On-Air Client Session] FFP 147 | Managing PCOS Symptoms Naturally | Fertility Awareness Reality Series | Lisa & Erica FFP 142 | Endometriosis, PCOS, Acne & Infertility | Getting to the Root Cause | Dr. Pamela Frank FFP 141 | Surviving Hypothalamic Amenorrhea | Getting Your Period Back Without Fertility Drugs | Nicola Rinaldi FFP 138 | Post-Pill Amenorrhea | Why It Took 4 Years For Her Period To Come Back | Andrea Petrus FFP 111 | 8 Steps to Reverse Your PCOS | Inflammation, Gut Health, Thyroid Disorders & PCOS | Infertility | Autoimmunity | Dr. Fiona McCulloch, ND [On-Air Client Session] FFP 105 | Fertility Awareness Reality Series | Fertility Awareness Method | PCOS | Balancing Blood Sugar | Nutrition for Fertility | Teri & Lisa FFP 103 | Real Food for PCOS | PCOS, Insulin Resistance & Diabetes | Managing PCOS Naturally with Diet |  Balancing Blood Sugar | Lily Nichols FFP 086 | Hypothalamic Amenorrhea | Period Repair Manual | Healthy Hormones | Dr. Lara Briden FFP 022 | What is PCOS? | Healing PCOS Naturally | PCOS Diva Amy Medling FFP 019 | Fix Your Period | Amenorrhea, Dysmenorrhea and The Pill | Nicole Jardim FFP 012 | Recovering from Post-Birth Control Syndrome | How to get your period back | Laura Schoenfeld FFP 007 | What the pill really does to your hormones | PCOS & Menstrual Irregularities | Dr Lara Briden Join the community! Find us in the Fertility Friday Facebook Group. Subscribe to the Fertility Friday Podcast in Apple Podcasts! Music Credit: Intro/Outro music Produced by J-Gantic A Special Thank You to Our Show Sponsors: Fertility Friday | Fertility Awareness Programs This episode is sponsored by my Fertility Awareness Programs! Master Fertility Awareness and take a deep dive into your cycles and how they relate to your overall health! Click here to apply now! The Fertility Awareness Charting Workbook This episode is sponsored by my new book the Fertility Awareness Mastery Charting. Click here to buy now.

Connect with DataDx on the Azure Marketplace: https://bit.ly/3aYRTwC Kate Othus is the CEO of DataDx, a company that provides the insights medical practices need to achieve long-term and sustainable business results. Kate is interviewed by Tyler Cohen Wood, an 18+ year veteran of the Cyber Intelligence industry and healthcare entrepreneur. As part of this discussion, we shared how their partnership with Microsoft, their use of Azure, and the Azure Marketplace has empowered them to scale and grow their business. Web: https://datadx.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/datadx/ Twitter: @DataDxInsights Instagram: @DataDxInsights Azure Marketplace: bit.ly/3aYRTwC Contact Tyler: Web: http://www.tylercohenwood.com/ Twitter: @TylerCohenWood Contact Avrohom: Web: https://asktheceo.biz Facebook: AvrohomGottheil Twitter: @avrohomg Instagram: @avrohomg INTERVIEW HIGHLIGHTS: [00:41] When it comes to digital transformation, we typically think of large enterprises and global corporations. But really, every sized business is going through a digital transformation in their own unique way. Since your business focuses on individual medical practices, what are some of the challenges that doctors and small and medium healthcare providers face when trying to go digital? Kate: That's a great question, Tyler. Healthcare, in general, is experiencing significant challenges, especially right now. Predicting volumes and effectively managing operations to meet those changes is a struggle. Having appropriate cash and inventory reserves to sustain any changes in practice patterns, is another. And in addition, there are a lot of clinical initiatives that are changed, due to policy regulations and whatnot. And sometimes, even the thought of a digital transformation is quite daunting and quite expensive for healthcare businesses. So, they struggle to afford it. It does force them; however, to continue to operate on antiquated, and sometimes, even analog systems. Those issues end up compounding into one pretty incredible issue, which is, the inability for healthcare at large to predict and calculate the cost per unit of care. So, as patients, when we go to consume care, we often walk in not knowing what it's going to cost. Whether that's to the doctor or for a hospital visit. [02:57] DataDx recently launched a new offering on the Microsoft Azure marketplace to address some of the challenges we just discussed. Tell us about it. [06:36] What are the key drivers for success in a pediatric practice? [08:06] How would a healthcare provider use your solution with Azure? [08:30] How can customers find out more about the DataDx solution, and procure it through the Azure Marketplace? Kate: You can access it at https://bit.ly/3aYRTwC. [09:01] How has partnering with Microsoft helped DataDx scale and grow your business? [10:12] How do people connect with you? Kate: You can connect with us on our website at https://datadx.com/. We’re also on social media. You can connect with us on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/company/datadx/ and on Twitter and Instagram at @DataDxInsights. [10:39] How can people find out more about Microsoft partnership opportunities for healthcare partners? Kate: For more information, you can send an email to HealthcareIndExp@microsoft.com. [10:58] Do you have any parting words of wisdom that you’d like to share with the audience? [12:12] What inspired you to build DataDx? #AskTheCEO with Kate Othus

What can startup founders learn from the marketing strategies of high growth, silicon valley tech companies? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Traction Hero founder Kate Walling talks about her experience helping VC-backed tech startups develop marketing and business strategies, and the specific things she recommends they focus on to achieve exponential growth. Highlights from my conversation with Kate include: Kate advises early stage tech companies on their marketing and business growth strategies. When she starts working with a new company, the first thing Kate looks at is the product and business model to determine whether there are opportunities to use product-led growth. After that, she evaluates the company's brand and positioning within the industry, and then focused on the sales team. One strategy that Kate has seen several companies use successfully to drive growth is community, and specifically building a community of their customers, users and fans and allowing that community to mostly self-moderate. To be successful, Kate says marketers need to be a part of the larger corporate strategy conversations around what the product is, how it will be positioned, what the tech stack is, and how sales will go to market. Another effective way to raise your brand profile is to work with industry influencers. Kate says that these do not always have to be paid relationships, and that its important for your marketing team to be aggressive in building relationships. If you have a small budget, one of the best ways to gain early traction as a founder is through a personal email newsletter. This is a strategy employed by many of the accelerators. Send it to friends, family, former colleagues, etc., but NOT clients, and share your journey as a startup founder. You can also use this to ask your audience for help and introductions. PR is another good way to get the word out at a low cost. While you can always hire a PR agency, there are plenty of opportunities for you to directly pitch yourself to local media, and you can subscribe to HARO and respond to those pitches at no cost. Tools like Canva are handy for making marketing collateral that looks like it was created by a designer but really uses templates to look professionally made. Kate's advice to founders is not to try and take on too many things. Find a few channels and platforms that are a good fit with your audience, do them well, test and iterate. Resources from this episode: Visit Kate's personal website Check out the Traction Hero site Email kate at kate[at]katewalling.com Following Kate on Twitter @katewalling Listen to the podcast to get specific strategies you can use as a startup founder (whether you have a big budget or a small one) to hit your growth goals. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host Kathleen Booth and today my guest is Kate Walling, who's the founder and CEO of traction hero. Welcome Kate. Kate Walling (Guest): Hello Kathleen. I love your podcast. Kate and Kathleen recording this episode. Kathleen: Thank you. I'm excited to have you here. I am going to do a little bit of an announcement for my listeners before we dig in. Um, if you have listened to my last few episodes, you might've heard this, but it's late March, the coronavirus pandemic is happening. We are recording on Zoom and Zoom is having some bandwidth issues. So just saying, if you're listening, be patient with us. If the audio gets a little funky from time to time, we're going to do our best and hope that Zoom holds up for us as we go. But, these are interesting times we're living in. Lots of people working remotely, lots of people using video conferencing software. So it is what it is. But with that said, welcome Kate. Can you please tell my listeners a little bit about yourself and Traction Hero? About Kate Walling and Traction Hero Kate: Absolutely. So let me try to make this the short version of the story. I've been an entrepreneur since a really young age. I started my first startup at 23, which was a consumer facing startup. I've kind of been an entrepreneur since then, although I've had a corporate stint. I'm in the middle because at one point I realized that being an entrepreneur from a young age means that you don't understand corporate structure and you just hit some walls because you have a lack of understanding. So I've also worked in a public tech company here in Silicon Valley and now I'm back with Traction Hero, which is a marketing agency for startup companies where right now we provide a lot of tech companies with on demand services just as they need it. So basically they can email with a quick project they need done and we turn it around in a couple of hours. So it's really good for companies that have large budgets, but not enough team. Basically there's a lot of those. And then we're also slowly building out services that are really focused on the deliverable so that startups can say, "I need a market research study done" or "I need a new identity." Everything is focused toward what needs to happen to get that done. So as you know, when you're doing a lot of projects, you've got to have a writer, a designer, a printer, all these different people, and it's very stressful for marketers. There's not really been a solution so far where they can just cross that thing off the list and know that the whole thing is getting done. So that's what we're working toward, is really solutions that help marketers get stuff done as they need it.  Kathleen: I love that you personally have been a startup founder and that you've done a lot of work with startup founders because I'm personally passionate about that. I have been a business owner. I've started a couple of different businesses. Having walked in the shoes of the founder, I think you described it so well where there's so many things that need to get done. And that's just from a marketing standpoint, right? You're wearing all the hats when you're in a startup. You could be the owner, the chief salesperson and the marketer as well as other things. And in those early days it can be really hard to zero in on, what are the most important things I should be doing in order to gain traction? That is one of the reasons, FYI, that I love your company name. You stay focused without falling victim to shiny object syndrome or you know, working so much in the business and not on the business, et cetera. It's a challenging, challenging time. Kate: It is. And I think, you know, marketing's been already challenging for a number of years because the MarTech stack keeps getting larger and, and Silicon Valley, the budgets keep getting larger, but your team size doesn't. But marketing is getting more and more responsibility for profit and loss. So there's a lot of pressure and I think what I hear from clients is, what you're saying, is that this was a different style with Traction Hero. And that's because I've personally been through the technology accelerator programs. I am on my fourth startup. I really know what it's like. The interesting thing is that I started this agency model in Seattle. I built an agency in Seattle before I came down to Mountainview California and the model works so well, so it's called scrappy face and it was scrappy, right? And we just went in and we helped these funded tech companies and we just moved as fast as we could. And we had a great team. I closed the agency because I went through a divorce and growing a company really quickly in the middle of a divorce in a city that was always raining is brutal to say the least. But the model was so interesting and when I went into corporate tech, what I realized is that I kind of thought their needs would be different. What I saw was just maybe limited, but it really wasn't, it was pretty much the same concerns of "I've got money, I don't have enough people to spend it." You know, "I don't have enough hands." And then marketing has gotten so specialized that you can't possibly hire enough people to do all these things well, like they can't be experts at everything. So, you know, I'm a big proponent now of having smaller marketing teams, but knowing how to get more done quickly and having whatever workforce you need, that's really fluid. Kathleen: I love that.  should take a step back because this topic, when you talk about startups, I feel like it's a Rorschach test because the word "startup" can mean a lot of things to a lot of different people. And for some people, they hear "startup" and they think little, you know, two or three person company. And yes, of course every startup has to start somewhere. But then there are startups that are incredibly well funded, VC funded, that go from being one or two people to 20 to 30 people within a span of a month. When I think the conversation we're having, it's more around that high growth startup, not that little company that's gonna slog along for five years. We're talking about, you know, startups that have a lot of potential that need to move fast. I think that's really key here. That's the experience I've had working in startups, is that it's all about speed, especially if you're looking for investment. Because as soon as you bring on investors, there are high expectations. There are benchmarks you have to hit. There are thresholds that you need to get to. And all of that needs to happen really quickly. And you're right, you know, you couldn't possibly hire enough people to do that and you can't have a team that includes the world's best in everything, right? Because you'd need to segment out each little thing you do and hire a different person for it. So what's the best way to move ahead? And the other element of that that, I think, is so interesting is this need to balance brand with demand generation because those are two really important components. And especially if you're in a high growth startup, you absolutely need demand generation. There is no company that doesn't, but brand is really important these days. How early stage startups can quickly gain traction Kate: So like, yeah, how do you do all the things? It's so hard and I mean, you bring up a great point first. Defining "startup" is important. I think right now I do tend to concentrate on the tech startups that are scaling and have money. I also tend to help entrepreneurs that are somehow very well resourced and there's an opportunity that needs to move quickly. Those were the fun ones. That can be anywhere. It's like there's been a regulatory or legal change and so it's presented this opportunity and you've got to go fast to take advantage of that opportunity. So that looks different different ways, but it's typically those two categories in terms of entrepreneurs who are working on a smaller project or evolving it. There's so many tools now that they can use that would save them so much money that I think just having that right tool stack is a better situation. But back to your question about balancing brand and demand gen. It's super hard and I think what I used to do is go month by month, quarter by quarter in my corporate role and say "What are the business objectives here? And so what does what makes the most sense?" So if all of a sudden the sales team is growing from 40 to 90, right? I've got to get the demand gen up and going. I've got to get tools in place to deal with that. And that evolves into other things like what type of sellers are they? How are these tools going to work together? Whereas if the brand is newer or there's been a change in the industry or there's some kind of potential in terms of content or positioning, you go on the brand side. I think you just have to kind of reevaluate it every several weeks when you're, when you're at scale, when you're trying to work with scale. Kathleen: Yeah. It's funny that you say that because I think the last month or two have been the best example of why it's important to reevaluate every few weeks because I can speak for myself. I had a beautiful 90 day marketing strategy that I finished at the end of January. I'm a big believer in planning in quarters and adjusting in months. And so I had the strategy put together and I was starting along my merry way, implementing my strategy and then coronavirus hit and blew it all up. I feel like I, I, you know, I want to do air quotes, "go into work every week." You know, I'm not going anywhere. I'm working out of my house right now. And the priority is constantly changing based on the current fire. And I say that not meaning that like, the house is on fire and the company's in jeopardy. That's not our case. In fact, oddly we have an increase in demand because of what our product does. But, it's about pivoting and shifting and recognizing now it's all about remote work and you know, that sort of thing. And that's different than what I had planned out, but when things are moving fast, you gotta be able to go with it. Kate: You do. And I think, you know, in terms of the virus, it's the emotional roller coaster for us personally. It's the same with business. And I think it's that way with most parts of businesses, right? It's like, "Oh, I don't know if I have enough toilet paper. I don't know if I have enough this or the National Guard is moving in," you know? So it's like, every day, assessing where things are and what your needs are. And I'm seeing that with my clients. The first week was about "What should we be doing? Should we do a campaign?" So we do an email and alert people of what services we're changing. Now it's moved to, "Okay, competitively, what do we need to do? What's going on in the industry? What's the overall campaign, you know, with our overall strategy here?" And that strategy ends up being not just marketing, that's the whole business offering. We need to move products. But marketing from my observation right now, which is, you know, limited in the grand scheme of things, marketing is driving some of those business questions, right? Because you can't go to a marketer right now and say, "I need you to do something about this virus." The marketer has to say, "Well wait, what are we, what are we offering here?" You can't just throw together some kind of campaign or ad without meaning. I mean, this is not a, um, you know, "throw a graphic on it" type of problem. How do VC-backed startups approach marketing? Kathleen: Yeah, absolutely. So let's put the pandemic aside for a minute because I feel like we could have an entire episode on that and I may need to do that at some point soon. My curiosity has been peaked by what you said about how you tend to work with these well-resourced, need-to-move quickly, but potentially bandwidth-constrained companies. I think what is really interesting about that is that a lot of marketers see those kinds of companies that do grow really fast and they think, "What are they doing? What is the secret sauce? What's happening behind the scenes that's enabling them to go so quickly?" Maybe I'm wrong, but I suspect it's not that they're just throwing money at the problem. It has to be more of, yes, you need money, but what are you going to do with that money that supports a really high growth kind of scenario? So maybe you could talk a little bit about that and pull back the curtain on, if somebody does come to you and say, you know, we just got VC funding, we've got to triple the size of this company in a year. We've got the budget to do it. As a marketer, what kinds of things are you doing and looking at for them? Kate: The first thing I look at is, is there anything in their model that should be evaluated overall for marketing in terms of distribution or influence? For scalability, like you said, it's demand gen and brand. However, for a lot of things it's, is there something that needs to be built into the product from a marketing positioning standpoint or differentiation to make sure that that scale can happen with the brand and demand gen tools? That's one of my favorite parts and that's where your puzzles come in. So if you're a SaaS company, do you need to be offering some kind of certification program because you need more people using the software? What are the different channels? How is that working? I think getting a grasp on, is there something from a business model perspective that needs to happen? The other thing is, a lot of companies at that point have some juggernauts, right? Like, we're seeing churn is hitting here and it's too high, or we're seeing these little scenarios happen with customers, or our lifetime value is off. So we start trying to troubleshoot some of those things so that, that first step is really about marketing and the product and the operations of the business, and then also what needs to be worked out before you scale. There are usually some major learnings there. Once those kinks have been ironed out, we start looking at where are we positioned in the industry? Where is brand awareness? And then what is the plan with the sales team? So if you've got two sellers and you're going to hire maybe one more, that's a pretty basic stack because you don't want to build anything too complicated until you understand, are these relationship-based sellers, are these more tech savvy sellers? There's a difference in the tools required. So you can do something more basic in the meantime, just getting them basic collateral, making sure they have that stuff on the brand side. You start wanting to do more PR, more on positioning and really claiming your spot in the industry landscape. Then, as your sales team picks up, so when you start getting to like 20, 40, 50 up and up sellers, you're looking at a lot more sophisticated systems. You're usually looking at a change of how sales works. So if you have inside sales reps, how are they working, how are they using your marketing software? You get into really complex software decisions, and that's usually driven by marketing. How can startups use product-led growth? Kathleen: There's so much there. I have so many questions I want to ask you. Let's go back to one of the first things you said, which is that you actually begin in many cases by looking at product. So it sounds like what you're talking about is product led growth, and really going in and looking at what are the opportunities to bake something in -- the product that we have that can itself be a growth driver. I would love it if you could just talk a little bit more about that. Kate: It's both from a positioning standpoint, and distribution comes up. That comes up with SaaS companies a lot. And positioning can come up with B2C, right, of like what is this particular opportunity here? With direct to consumer you see it because you'll see, like, consumer products that are extremely well designed or they're really hip or something like that. So that's where you'll see that brand move play in really big. And, and usually with D2C, that's part of the initial product development. But sometimes that can come in as like, how do we do that? Sometimes it can be, with B2C, how do we build a community around the product, right? So some companies are doing a really good job of using Facebook groups. I think Facebook groups are amazing for marketers right now of, we're going to liberate our whole community and let them build with one another. But what are the rules of that? So I think there's just a lot there in terms of B2C, it depends. If it's a commodity-based business, it's harder. A lot harder, right? You're looking at, how do we feel different to the buyer? How do we provide a different experience? If we're not really offering something different, can we deliver it different? Is there really strong brand value that can go throughout the whole company and how would that be protected? So it really has a lot of different shapes. Think of channel partners or technology partners who are taking our API and installing it. But is there something more? Is there a way to even scale it bigger than that? Right? Like get like a whole group of individuals selling this thing for you. So I think it's really out of the box type thinking. And generally at this point, you know, the startup's been going for awhile, they've had some success, they're ready to, you know, commit, and they're ready to scale. They're leaning that way. So it's a really good time to do this work. How marketers can play a role in the broader business strategy? Kathleen: You're coming in as a marketing advisor. At the same time though, it goes to the core of the business strategy. It's not just a marketing strategy. If you're talking about putting an evangelist program in place or changing elements of the product or building a certification program, some of these are business strategies. So how do you navigate that conversation? Because I think often marketers are really challenged with, we're really comfortable staying in our marketing lane. But a lot of the times, when we get out of that lane -- and sometimes it manifests as, you know, we're starting to make recommendations about sales software, other times it's like the things you're talking about that can get rocky if you don't do it right -- how do you approach that? Kate: Yeah, that's a great statement. It's so true with this early stage stuff that I'm talking about. It's typically before a startup has hired a CFO or a senior level marketer. And so you're working directly with the CEO and they have some marketing resources. They'll have a small agency, they'll have a couple freelancers, right? Part of their problem is that they don't know who to hire. And most of the time what I tell them is you can't make that hiring decision yet. We don't know what the marketing is, so we don't know what type of marketer to hire, you know? So I'm a huge proponent of fractional CMOs because I think it's just too early and you don't want to get the wrong person. There's a lot at stake. And I think a lot of startups at that base, they've got revenue coming in, hire a CMO to come in four hours a week and figure this out slowly. And who realizes that you're going to hire for that position when you know what the direction is? So that's more early stage. And the company usually has maybe five to 10 employees, but marketing's not built out yet at all. Later on is where you get really more tricky. You've got someone in charge of sales and they have a particular way that they're hiring. Then as a marketer, you're supposed to bring in demand gen, right? And the demand gen you need to bring in is a different skillset than the sellers have. And the sellers were not aware of the software that you have to do. In my corporate role, it was a rollout plan. I started with HubSpot and got people used to this idea, this is what's going on and why. Then I moved into Marketo, which is super hard. Kathleen: I just went in the opposite direction. I went from a company with Marketo to a company with HubSpot and I'm like, "Thank God. It's so much easier." Kate: And then with Marketo, the sales team was growing. We had to do much more sophisticated type rules and stuff too, because all of a sudden you can have a sales team and you start bringing in all these leads and a sales team does not care. They don't care. And they're not gonna answer them. And you've got a cultural problem of you have to educate them toward how do you deal with these leads, what it means, their job and that it is, and you have to have support from the management team that this is going to be required. There's a whole lot and it just really depends on who you're working with and what their background is. You have to take it one step, one day at a time. So I think it just depends on the team. It depends on where people are. You have to be pretty fluid marketer. You have to be able to say, "This is what I need and it's going to be a process and I'm going to have to get buy in. And so how do I do that?" So you have to be patient. Kathleen: I think you raised something really important, which is, when you're coming into the job, you're at an advantage because you're working with a CEO. But just one thing I've learned is that when you, when you're in those hiring conversations, you have to, you have to have a conversation about that. I might be making some recommendations that are outside of what you might think of as marketing. How are you going to feel about that? Are you open to it? Are you willing to keep an open mind? You know, really, really figuring out that the personality type of the founder, the CEO, and whether they're willing to listen and, and consider other things I think is so important at that stage of a company. Kate: Critical. Specific strategies that startups can use to drive exponential growth Kathleen: Moving onto something else. You said you started talking about community and I love that topic. I could talk about it forever. And I guess this is, this is part of a bigger question I have, which is, I'd love it if you could share some examples of what you have seen work really well to fuel fast growth in some of the companies you've worked with. And maybe we could start with community because I came from a company a few jobs ago where we built a very large community and it was huge for us and it was a Facebook community. Through that experience I became really passionate about that. So that's just one example but, but there may be others. So, specific things that you have seen really deliver for the companies you've worked with. Kate: It's different for B2B and B2C. So I'll start with B2C because it's the easy, fun one. What I'm seeing right now that I love are these Facebook groups around certain products. This is not a client of mine, but it's actually a product I use. There was, what's it called, the meal delivery company that I was using for awhile when I had really busy days. It was all plant-based food and then they had this Facebook group and you could join it and people were just sitting there and they let people post whatever they want. They can sit there and post like "I really hate this smoothie. How am I going to get through this or am I supposed to do this later or not?" And it's super interesting to watch how that worked because the community moderated the community members for the brand. Brilliant. People will say, you know, "I did lose weight, I did not lose weight. This is really more about health." And so you start seeing these advocates come up and then they would use those advocates for their Instagram stories and other things. So that organic way of building a community that moderates itself is really interesting. Now initially, you have those questions about when do we step in and when do we not, and how do we moderate? I think if you can get by with moderating lightly, but you know, the feel of the brand is so positive, right? So that's a brand value that you have less of those issues but they're going to come up. But I think you have to have a very careful strategy about how to moderate that. The other thing that people are using a lot on B2B is obviously these micro influencers. There's some startups paying a lot of money for this and it's all over the place. Traction on that sort of slowed down the end of last year and now I'm starting to see clients pick back up on interest in that because everybody's at home and online, right? So we're starting to feel like there's opportunity there. I'd say if you can build your own organic community, that would be ideal, right? If you can't, you can use these micro influencers and that's great content as well. I talked to someone last week and their product's working and they're sold out, and they've gotten all this influencer marketing and that helped. But then all of a sudden years later, they don't have brand values. And so when you're needing to do more, you're needing to build content, you're needing to build demand and you're needing to build, you know, other parts of marketing, if you don't have those brand values built out, then all of a sudden you're like, well, who are we? We were using everyone else for the voice. So you'll run into that for B2B. It's true here. I think some of this comes to hiring. So what I've seen work really well is that you become friends with all the influencers in the industry and you sponsor their podcast and you appear on their podcasts and you go to their events and you just kind of make sure the team knows who the influencers are. And then you do everything you can to get involved with people at every level. You'll have local events and you'll bring the people in that you know, in that city and have them share their stories. And so it's a constant kind of industry networking. I've seen that work really, really well on the B2B side. But it's definitely different. Kathleen: It's so interesting that you say that because I've seen that work really well too, where people have formed strategic relationships with industry influencers and sometimes, not paid as you say. It doesn't always have to be paid. It could just be really showering them with love in the form of, you know, having them on your podcast or going on theirs or commenting and sharing and making introductions. I worked for a marketing agency for awhile and they did this exact thing and their way of forming those relationships was by offering to make personal branding websites for influencers. That was a great way to get to know them. Then you've done them a favor. So there are a lot of different ways that that that can be done. I think that's really smart. How to hit big growth goals on a small budget Kathleen: You work with well-resourced companies that are able to do a lot of these things. Any lessons learned or suggestions for companies that don't have those giant budgets? What are some things they can do in the early days? Kate: Oh yeah. I love the scrappy brands and helping startup founders. So I advise a lot of startup companies. I love this part of the work cause I obviously identify with it a lot. Being an entrepreneur for so long, I think, you know, when founders are trying to grow a brand unlimited budget, one thing I always bring up is never forget about email, because if you create an email list of your friends and family and colleagues and anyone that you meet with, those people become very loyal to your process. If you share with them where you are and what you're going through and what you need help with, they will help. It will absolutely help. I've seen that be really successful. Now your tone has to be right because nobody owes you anything and you want to be entertaining and kind of make them feel a part of it. And that's part of the email structure, right? Of like, "Here's what's happening and you know, these exciting things are happening, these challenges are happening. Here's how you can help." That is the basic format that does incredibly well. And that is one of the main marketing tricks that comes out of the Silicon Valley tech accelerators. They have all their founders do a weekly email and it works. I, on my own, I've had open rates of like 90% or higher, very high. Kathleen: I want to talk about that for a second because I'm fascinated by this. I also believe strongly in email. I also think that people think of email as this old, tired, dead strategy, but there's some really interesting things being done in the world of email right now. So you're talking about founders doing a weekly email. Can you peel the layers of that back a little bit for me? What does that look like? Who does it go to? Kate: Sure. So this is not client facing or customer facing. My personal list is maybe 200 people and it's my closest friends, my family members, colleagues I've worked with for years, people that I've met with on this journey. So it's people that know what you're up to and what you're striving for basically. But not clients. Clients and customers would get something different. They don't need to understand the process. So that email list is specific for friends and family colleagues. And what you do is, every time you send, you add more people that you've met along the way. I usually start it with like "Hi friends" or something like that. And then I usually say something seasonal about what's happening in the world and that I'm thinking about them because I am. All these people, they're cheering you on. And then I'll typically say, if you're new to the list, here's a link to the previous email, right? So that there's some sort of context in there drawn into the story correctly. And then I'll put some kind of update about where I am or what challenges are happening. And it's usually interesting stuff because when you're building a business, you hit all kinds of things in the world that are happening. So for example, with Traction Hero, there've been changes in California privacy law, changes in California employment law that have really changed the model. And that stuff is interesting. If you're not in it all day long, it's pretty interesting. So share the challenges you have. And then I usually say, "Here's the ways you can help. So if you just open your social accounts, we're now on Instagram. Would love if you would follow," and people will, they'll do it. Or "If you happen to know a friend who knows anything about X, Y, or Z, would you mind connecting me?" They will. This technique is straight from accelerator programs and it is a good one. Kathleen: Do you add these people to the list or do you ask them if they want to opt in? How does that work? Kate: I add them. I often will mention it to them. Like, "I'm going to add you to my newsletter. Let me know if it's okay." You're not doing it for a business so the rules are different. This is actually a question I'm curious to know. I mean I still send, so my recommendation is, I send it through MailChimp, their most basic template. And the reason why is people can unsubscribe. It does hurt your feelings a little bit more when someone does that you know. It's also interesting because if sometimes there'll be like a vendor or somebody and if they offer, I've actually had this happen, someone unsubscribed and I was like, then you're not interested enough in my story for me to pay you. Kathleen: Yeah. Right. Kate: Like, if you're not interested enough in this email because this is just basically what's happening with my business, if you're not interested in that, then I mean, I don't think that we'd be a good fit in terms of working together. I mean, I'm not bothering you. It's like once every six months, I mean slow, but I used to try to do them once a month. MailChimp's most basic template is perfect. And just text. I mean I throw in, maybe, you know, if I done a new logo design or something, throw it in. But keep it pretty simple. And that way people can unsubscribe. Kathleen: I'm a big fan of not overly designing emails. I mean these days, most people have the images in their emails turned off by default. And so if you've got a lot of design in there, it just doesn't get seen half the time anyway. And it looks crappy to have a lot of those image boxes. Like, "Turn your image on," you know, it just doesn't look good. So simpler is better all around with email in my opinion. Kate: Yeah, I know, I totally agree. And that MailChimp basic template's nice. The fonts big, it works well on mobile. It's, it's a nice one. These emails still take, I'm going to say it like if I'm fast, two hours. They still take time. You don't want to bother anybody and you want it to be entertaining and you want it to be, you know, uplifting, even if you're talking about your challenges. The most important thing is tone. I've seen some of these founder emails and if you use the wrong tone, people are like, "No thanks." Kathleen: So what is the right tone? Kate: I think it's friendly and I think it's engaging. You know, I don't think it's like, "Hi friends, hope you're enjoying this day. Please like my Facebook page, please sign up, please send me people who should be customers." It's not about a million asks. People have a lot going on in their lives. It's more of like, "Here's what's going on with building this startup right now. Here's what I'm trying to do. Here are the challenges I'm having. And that's interesting to people, because a lot of people haven't gone through it or want to go through it. And you know, entrepreneurship is never a straight line at all.  Kathleen: I love that idea. I mean, that's something that really any founder in any industry can do. I think for some it's going to put them in a place of discomfort because a lot of the founders I've met don't like talking about themselves that much, which is kind of funny because you're going to have to at some point as a founder.  But I think that's neat because that's something you can do that doesn't take really any money, that just takes your time. Kate: I'd say founders who have marketing backgrounds definitely have a hand up on this one. In tech accelerators, what would happen is I would send in mine first and then whoever in my batch would typically take mine and copy it. So people need examples of this. Email me and I'll send you one of my past ones because it does help to see some kind of, you know, formula that's worked for people and it's so much easier for marketers. Kathleen: I love that. So maybe we'll put Kate's email in the show notes and you can email her and say, Hey, I need your newsletter so you can see what it looks like. So you had, you said you had some other things to be on that and I took you on a tangent with that one.  Kate: So other things on my list. Definitely write industry articles on LinkedIn so that you're showing industry expertise and what you're learning. I think that's very important just to start showing industry expertise and that you're connected to the industry. The other thing I'll say is look for media stories where you might fit in and ping the journalists. So a quick side story, do we have time for that? Kathleen: Yeah, go for it. Kate: When I started my Seattle agency, I had just been through this issue of what's called domain front running, which is when you go in and you're buying a domain and before you can hit checkout, someone takes it from you. So they're capturing it on the domain register thing. Well, King Five, the big news station in Seattle ran a story about how these guys were making all this money on domain names and how it was such an innovative business. Well, I got the journalist name and I sent them an email and I said, "I totally disagree with you. This is really bad for entrepreneurs. It's, you know, it's not right. There's some negative things happening that are just unfair." So they came to the office and filmed me talking about the story about how someone stole my domain name and then sold it back to me for a lot more money than if I'd just been able to push the button. And that was a great opportunity. I've had a lot of luck. You know, my first startup was around printing cookbooks and I had a lot of luck just calling local news stations and cooking on air. Free PR. I've gotten a lot of clients placed, um, if you have a consumer based business, there are a lot of news stations that their lunchtime, they'll have like a third hour, they have a third hour. It's usually lifestyle and you can get pretty easily placed on it if you have some sort of presence and something to talk about. They need people for that lifestyle hour. So always look for PR and media opportunities. Kathleen: Yeah. And I would say a great resource for that also is help a reporter out -- HARO. I mean that's a no brainer. It doesn't cost anything. You subscribe to it, you get an email, however many times a day with reporters looking for sources for stories. It can be overwhelming, but it also is full of opportunity. Kate: Yeah, if you have gmail, you can put on a label and then go in and look when you have time. But yeah, that's an awesome recommendation. Podcast interviews are great. You find people like yourself and you have similar topics and interests. There are websites like Canva that make building marketing collateral so easy and you look like you know what you're doing design-wise and it doesn't cost you extra money. So by all means, make your decks, make your one pagers, make collateral for all these different use cases. Think about collateral. Kathleen: Oh my God, I have to stop you and just say, I am the biggest Canva fan girl on the planet. I am not a designer. I do not know how to use the Adobe suite to design anything. That's the one thing I've just realized. I'm not, I don't have the aptitude for it, but I can go into Canva and make the most beautiful things and I do it probably four times a day. I love it. Yes. It's amazing. Kate: Yeah. Canva, huge. When you get later on in your startup and you have to have brand differentiation and you know, you don't want to use simple stuff, that's different. Early on, use Canva, print this stuff, have leave behinds for customers. It doesn't cost that much money to just really work on your marketing collateral. I think also when you're on the topic of press, look at your local press opportunities, where can you talk at local events, whatever works locally. We'll end up working in different geographies and at larger scale. So learn locally first and that stuff is free. It just takes time. And also work on your industry. So look, so look at this stuff in terms of, are you being, are you B2B or B2C? So where does that fall in? Then look at your media, look at it local and look at an industry as well. And then you want to start growing your community in terms of media. I see entrepreneurs, it's kind of painful to see that they're trying to do all the platforms and it's terrible on all of them. Just choose the ones that are most relevant and a couple to start and just start figuring it out. There's some great tools. A lot of people are saying, "Well, I don't want Twitter because it's not working." Okay. But the thing about it, the people who are on Twitter right now are really passionate and they stay on it. They're a very, very, very passionate bunch. My favorite Twitter tool for growing a Twitter audience is called Jooicer, which is J. O. O. I. C. E. R. Have you seen it? It's awesome. It's like 30, 40 bucks and will grow your Twitter audience for you beautifully. So you know, find tools like that. And again, like we were saying with Canva, you can make beautiful social media posts in Canva since you now have to have more designed content. Use Canva for that.  Kathleen: Yeah, I love this and I will tell you right now as the head of marketing at a startup, I use Canva, I use helper a reporter out. I totally, totally agree with you on those suggestions. Those are great. Kate's advice for startup founders Kathleen: Well we are running low on time. So any last words of advice for startup founders out there who really want to take that fast path to growth? Kate: Yeah, I think the important thing is to try to not get overwhelmed. And so what I recommend doing is, do a list of 10 to 15 different things. You can try figure out a small test for that, that's feasible. Like, if it's an ad unit, put enough money so it's actually worth the test and go through and test them and concentrate on one thing, like one thing a week, step by step by step. If you try to do it all at one time, you get really overwhelmed and it ends up not diluting the quality of it. So, one foot in front of the other is what I always tell people. Kathleen: Yeah. That's good. Kathleen's two questions Kathleen: Now changing gears because I have two questions I always ask all of my guests. We're all about inbound marketing on this podcast. So when you think about inbound, is there a particular company or individual that you can point to that you think is really doing it well? Kate: The first thing that popped in my mind was not what you asked. It was a company that helps people do it well. I really like Unbounce for landing pages. I think you can get a very beautiful landing page up quickly. I would have to think on that. I think, sorry, I was not prepared for this one. Kathleen: That's okay. Unbounce is a good suggestion actually. I can just keep that. Kate: Okay. I'm a huge proponent of Unbounce. There are other cheaper tools, but I really like the quality of Unbounce. Kathleen: Yeah, they're a great company. Second question, the biggest pain point I hear from marketers is that they can't keep pace with all of the different ways that digital marketing is changing. So how do you personally stay up to date with all of it? Kate: Being an agency owner, I've spent a lot of time and resources going through MarTech tools and organizing them. If anybody wants these reports, just please email me. And that helped organize my brain a lot and help me understand if I was doing the right thing or not. So we've done reports where we analyze CRM tools. There's one on website development tools. We've got one on email marketing and one on marketing automation. What those reports did, because in my head I just couldn't keep it all straight, was say here are the solutions, here are all the features that they all have comparatively. And then here are the integrations they have. Because I think what's so hard about MarTech right now is it's not only like I like this product, so I've got 20 products I have to put together. And when you're going out to buy, it's, it's not a great way for marketers to have to spend time of like, which tool, and having to analyze this themselves. So one of my goals to help marketers is to say, here's some reports. Go through everything that you need to know and hopefully you can pick a tool or at least narrow it down to two or three that you should get a free trial on before you commit to it. So I think any website like that, save yourself time on evaluating tools. Find people who've done the research for you. I think that that is really overwhelming. Kathleen: That's so true. It is. It's a lot. There's so many MarTech tools now. How to connect with Kate Kathleen: All right, well we're just about out of time. So Kate, if somebody's listening and they want to learn more about you or traction hero or they want to reach out and ask a question, what's the best way for them to connect with you? Kate: Katewalling.com is my personal website and Tractionhero.com is for the agency. It's a very landing page type website. Right now we're kind of building, um, by doing the work first. You can always reach out to me on my email, which is kate[at]katewalling.com or Twitter, which my handle is @Katewalling. You know what to do next... Kathleen: All right, fantastic. If you're listening and you liked what you've heard or you learned something new, please head to Apple podcasts and leave the podcasts a five star review so we can get in front of some more folks just like you. And of course, if you know anybody else who's doing kick ass inbound marketing work, tweet me @workmommywork, because I would love to make them my next guest. That's it for this week. Thank you so much, Kate. Stay healthy. Kate: Thank you so much for having me.

We all probably have different definitions of what high performance means, but we can probably all agree that we want our marriage to perform well. And there are even a few simple tactics than any couple can implement to make their marriage work even better. Meet out Guests For this discussion, we’ve brought in a high performance couple, Kate and Steve Dahlin. The Dahlins are marriage mentors at the Two-To-One marriage ministry through North Point Church in Atlanta. Kate is also a life coach, who writes her own blog called Creating Exceptional. If you read the MarriedPeople blog, you’ll likely read some of Kate and Steve’s posts on marriage. The Dahlins live in Alpharatta, Ga., with their two young children.  A reminder for our listeners - we have a new resource we’ve created called MarriedPeople Membership. It’s an online library for married couples just like you. And it only costs $8/month or $80/year to get access to all of our premium resources in one place. The Interview Tell us a little about yourselves. Steve: Kate and I have been married for 11 years. We met in college on the beach and got married the weekend after graduation. We honeymooned, got married, and got our first jobs all in the same month. God has blessed us with two great kids, ages five and three. Kate: I started in the dancing and arts world late in life. I was with a company in Alabama and went up to New York in the summer with this group who brought in kids to see what your life would look like if you did that. I learned that my heart was in the teaching world. How do you use your marriage to pour into other people? Steve: We both had separate ministries up until we got married. Kate was with women’s groups, teaching, and kids ministry. I have a music background, so mine was in music. We really wanted to do something together. When we started attending Buckhead Church, they made an announcement around the pre-marriage mentoring, and we both felt a prick in our heart. We were so passionate and they had such a need. Kate: At the same time, I was growing my lifestyle coaching business. When we got married, I went from dancing straight into being a mom and was comfortable there. I was playing it safe and felt God nudging me that there was more I needed to be doing. That turned into writing and lifestyle coaching, which dove tailed into the marriage mentoring. Did you guys grow up seeing healthy marriages in the home? Kate: Yes. My parents are married today, love each other to death. They have five kids and were a great role model. I think it was very rare because we both came to the table with that. Steve: My parents have been married for 40 years this year. They both grew up in a religious background, but found Jesus together around the time I was born. We both benefited a lot from the upbringing. It’s very rare nowadays. What did you guys see in their marriages that made them successful? Kate: They learned to grow together as a team. For our grandparents, there was just this level of consistency. They were going to stick it out, it’s what you did. There was no other option. They truly loved doing life together and being a team. Steve: For me, the spiritual foundation is crucial. My parents were not on the same page when they got married, and once the alignment came and they started building that platform on Christ, everything changed. We’ve had some family drama just like every other family, but you can see that spiritual foundation woven through. What have you guys seen in your parents that you wanted to do in your marriage? Kate: They were very open communicators. When I was younger, there was a little fear seeing them fight it out, but we learned how to work it out. Even as kids, they’d tell us they love each other, they just had to work it out. Steve: Respect is what stands out in my mind. The recognition of each party and what they bring to the table. That mutual respect is what I took away. How has your life coaching impacted your marriage? Kate: I was a stay-at-home mom and God laid it on my heart that it was time to do more. I started seeking him on what I’d done in my past that I could leverage for the future. Teaching someone really resonates with me and the business just evolved over time. It started out with fitness and personal training—ballet, health, and exercise. It was easy for me to do that as a side gig. As I started doing that with women, it began encompassing whole health. Once they started getting their fitness and health under control, I you could see that effect all areas of their life. So it grew from there. What’s the difference between an exceptional life and the perfect life? Kate: For us it’s about bucking the status quo. I’m a high achiever, Type A, oldest child. It’s not perfection, it’s about excellence. I had a mentor say, “It’s not about excess, it’s about excellence.” Steve: An exceptional lifestyle is not about performance—it’s about the outcome. When you think about people getting wrapped up in trying to perform, that’s not what this is about. It marriage, life, and career you’re going to have ups and downs and you can’t avoid those. But you can control how you’re going to respond to those. What do you mean by a ‘high-performance marriage’? Kate: The definition for high performance is that you’re producing superior results. It’s not about perfection, but you’re definitely not the norm or average. Steve: In my sales background, they pull the top sales rep up on stage and ask how they’re doing it. For us, that is going to be the outcome of a high performance marriage. People are going to see something in you that’s different. They’re going to want to know what your secret is. What’s the first characteristic of a high-performance marriage? Kate: The first characteristic is dreaming, which is about perspective. We like to take a positive spin on the relationship. No matter where you are, the dreaming aspect gets you out of the daily ground and answer the question, “where are we going?” One of the biggest things for us is an adventure you can go on together. The best advice we would give someone is to go and travel. To get away and pull back from the daily grind. We try to get away every single year. Sometimes it’s just a hotel down the road for one night just to sleep. We encourage couples to start this tradition of getting away every year. Steve: We’ve found when you do this, you can start dreaming about other areas of your life that matter. Your dating life, even your sex life. It’s a great opportunity to connect as a couple. What happens to you as parents when you spend time just as a couple? Kate: You’re recharged and you can dream. When you’re in the daily grind of work and schedules and school, and it can just get busy. When you get away and pull back, you can have rest and the opportunity to think bigger. Steve: I’m always drawn to the movers and shakers in life. A lot of them have to get up early to make space and function. You look at Jesus—how many times did he retreat and pull away so he could come back recharged? From a marriage perspective, if you’re not doing that you’re going to burn out. Do you have a system for dreaming together, or does it happen organically? Steve: For us, vacation is vacation. We make sure we’re going away just us. We’ve done a couple trips with other people or visiting aunts and uncles. But making sure it’s just the two of us is important. Even the kids are starting to understand that. There have been times there was a book or podcast we wanted to pull in and talk about. But most of the time it’s amazing what comes out in that dead time. I’m in sales, so I could talk forever. For some people it may be harder to start. We’ve tried to do some things around creating conversation and it’s amazing what happens. Kate: The things to consider are: date, place, position, goal. What’s a date you’ve never done before? Where’s a place you want to go? Position has to do with your sex life. For goal: pick something really big you want to accomplish as a team. The second characteristic is dating. How often do you go on dates? Kate: We do date night every single week. Twice a month we actually go out. We get a babysitter; it’s in our budget. The other dates are home dates. We’ll feed the kids chicken nuggets, we’ll cook, play games. Making it a priority helps make it happen. When you call it ‘date night,’ you treat it differently. We treat it like a business meeting—we minimize distractions. We try not to talk about the kids or vent about the week. And we silence our cell phones. Steve: Early on, I confused hanging out all the time with dating. Then, a mentor asked how much I spent every month on car payments. Without missing a beat, he then asked how much I was spending dating my life. It’s not about the dollar amount. My focus on dating completely changed. Kate: If you don’t have the finances for a babysitter, you can swap time with another couple with kids. Just make it a habit. Don’t allow the busyness to squeeze this out. The third characteristic is growing. How do you grow together? Steve: I love the verse in Ecclesiastes that says two is better than one. This talks about the couple, but also the network you begin to build around you as you grow as a couple. You’ve got to find people in your phase of life who can walk beside you. The next step is to find a couple a few steps around you who have already walked that road. For us, it’s creating that environment with peers and people ahead of you. Next, it’s looking to the next generation. You grow a lot as a couple when you start pulling up the next generation. Having that network around you is so crucial to growth. Your one simple thing this week Pick one of the three characteristics of a high-performance marriage and work on it together. Dream: Write down one goal that you want to accomplish in your marriage during the next 10 years. Grow: Pray together so you can grow deeper as a couple. Date: Do something you’ve never done before on a date night. Show Closing Thanks for joining us for the Married People Podcast. We hope you’ll subscribe to the podcast on iTunes and leave a review—they help us make the podcast better.  We want to hear from you! Share with us on Facebook, Instagram or our site.  If you want more resources, check out the MarriedPeople membership.  You can find more from Kate on her blog or site.

In this post, we're delving into what you need to know NOW to get more traffic from Pinterest. What's Working Now with All of Pinterest's New Updates Pinterest comes out with updates and changes like any social media platform, such as Facebook or Instagram. The difference is that success on remains virtually the same even with changes because the foundation is never updated. If you are following good Pinterest strategies, such as… Using Pinterest as a search engine Focusing on your SEO Correcting problems ...you should remain untouched by these changes. Pinterest always values good content. Be sure you are always adding valuable content to your boards and you will be good to go. If you use Pinterest for your business, then you have likely heard of our guest this week, Kate Ahl. Kate Ahl is the founder and owner of Simple Pin Media, a Pinterest management company. If you want to follow Kate and get to know more about her, check out her podcast and her Facebook group. This is her third time coming on our show and she keeps all of us up-to-date on all things Pinterest. Plus, she is one of the kindest people I know and I am delighted to have her on again. The Purpose of Pinterest People use Pinterest to plan for the future. If someone wants to ideas, they go to Pinterest first. Pinterest informs our decisions and gives us inspiration, and then we can take action when we are ready. Pinterest introduces us to companies and websites that offer what we're looking for. Using Tailwind's SmartLoop Have you heard of SmartLoop? It's the newest feature from Tailwind, the Pinterest scheduler. Tailwind is a Pinterest approved pin scheduler and it's really important to us because we use it to schedule all of our pins. Smart Loop is a feature used to set your pins to go out to particular boards on a particular schedule. Instead of manually scheduling which pins go out, to which boards and on what days, you just put the pins you would like to be dropped continually into your boards, and Smart Loop will do it on repeat. This is helpful, especially if you have large amounts of content because everything will be pinned, without you worrying about forgetting something. You can then focus on putting your new content out using the more traditional side of Tailwind. Pinterest Lifted the Maximum Pins Allowed Since Pinterest began, they had a maximum number of 200,000 pins per account. 200,000 pins may seem like a lot, but for bloggers who have been on the platform for years and who release new content on a regular basis, it was all too easy to hit this threshold. Pinterest recently lifted the 200,000 pin threshold. Before they made this change, bloggers and entrepreneurs had to plan out how many pins to put out over a certain length of time in order to know when they hit the max allowed. How to Evaluate Your Pins Don't just do a pin dump for your Smart Loop cycle; be sure you evaluate the pins that you're adding. Organize and revisit to make sure your content is still fresh and adds value. Focus on what happens after people click away from Pinterest and visit your website. Make sure each pin takes the pinner to the right place on your site and that it's still worth keeping in your loop. Clean up your pins as you go. Everything you do on Pinterest should be with the goal to make it a good experience for your followers. Gaining Followers with Tailwind's SmartLoop I want to share a secret tip with you guys. Back in the day, when we had to stay under the maximum cap, we were pinning around sixty pins a day. Now that we've put these Smart Loops into play, we are pinning one hundred pins a day, and our traffic has gone up. Pinterest does change, so I am appreciating this boost right now while acknowledging that someday it may not work in our favor. However, since it is working in our favor right now, we will continue to take advantage of it. How to Set Up SmartLoops You can use your Smart Loops to repeat once a year or you can also set loops to keep going repeatedly. It's a nice feature that lets you customize the release of your loops. You will be able to get more followers by repinning high-quality pins, as well as posting new pins as you release new content. How to Grow Your Pinterest Followers Make sure that you use something like Milotree to grow your followers using Pinterest rules. Milotree will post your newest pins for you, and if they are high quality, and you have people interacting with them, it will signal to Pinterest to show that pin to more people. Pinterest wants: High-quality pins Relevant pins Fresh pins Why SmartLoop Does Not Spam Your Pinterest Boards There is some concern over whether your account will be marked spam if you use a system like Smart Loops, but in reality, this is not a problem. Kate has been in touch with Pinterest and they have confirmed that using Smart Loop will not get you marked as spam. What you do need to think about though is making sure you have a good user experience. You don't want to be putting out the same pin three times a day with low quality. You do not want viewers to look at your profile and see the same pin one hundred times. But if you are peppering the same pin every once in a while onto different boards, that's totally fine. Be very intentional about your keywords and descriptions because Pinterest is using them to decide what to show to viewers based on what they search. Video on Pinterest Video was first rolled out for big companies to promote themselves. But now anyone can upload a video naturally. Kate's best video tips: Less than a minute in length 1:1 ratio  (square) Catchy enough to make them visit your site Keywords in your descriptions Upload pins to relevant boards On the Pinterest app, we're seeing that videos pop up closer to the top during a search. The videos that take up the entire width of your phone screen are paid for. You can only get those with a promoted pin campaign. How to Use Hashtags on Pinterest The key to hashtags is relevance. Pinterest is using hashtags as another type of search term. Be specific and intentional on how you use them. Do not use hashtags to replace keywords, but put your hashtags at the end as a bonus. As marketers, we see Pinterest through a different lens. We see it as a way to market our products and hook our readers. But our users are on the platform solely because they find it helpful. Sticking with one or two hashtags will help more than ten. You can take it slow and test different hashtags to see which works best for you. Pinterest has said to not go back and update your hashtags. It will not help in any way because they're using a chronological format. Using Pinterest Like Your Friends Ask people in your life who are not marketers how they use Pinterest and you'll learn a lot about user behavior. Even when I go onto Pinterest looking for ideas, to me it's a totally different platform than what I use when I'm working on my business. I use secret boards to keep my personal boards and my business boards disconnected from each other. It's kind of like I have two personalities on there. Commenting On Pins Pins with lots of comments are going to rank higher, and that's something we can think about as pinners. Pinterest encourages you to comment on things, but we don't think about that all the time as marketers. When people are commenting on your pins, you should respond and maybe direct them to your website for more content like the pins they're commenting and posting pictures on. As Kate commented on more pins, she began to notice that she was getting followers from the genre of those pins. People feel more inclined to follow you if they feel some kind of connection. Pinterest Communities It is very labor intensive for a business owner to entice people to leave a platform like Facebook that is already community centered and join a community on Pinterest which has much more of a loner vibe. It's also a lot of work to manage communities in two different places. For those reasons and others, Kate has decided not to use the communities feature on Pinterest. Pinterest throws out new ideas all the time to see if people will hop into it and enjoy using it. Just because I am not seeing the benefits of communities, it doesn't mean my audience isn't. Remember, Pinterest is there to serve the user, not the marketer. When Pinterest tries new features, it's because they are trying to find ways they can become more valuable to the user and how they can keep them on their platform longer. Kate's Course Kate created a course for SmartLoop called Tailwind Smart Loop Simplified. One of Tailwind's priorities is providing value to its customers. They want to be sure they aren't wasting their customers' time. Kate created a course that hit three pain points: How to set up Smart Loop How to use it properly How to use it most effectively The course is set up so that people can be up and running confidently in about an hour and a half. They go into all the information you need to know about the different types of loops and how you can use them. Connect with Kate You can go to simplepinmedia.com to find Kate's podcast and newsletter.  Guest Suggestions If you like our blog, or if you have any recommendations for guests we should have on the show, please reach out to me at jillian@milotree.com. And be sure to comment below and tell me your favorite Pinterest strategy! I love hearing from you.   If you're looking for more followers, subscribers, and sales, MiloTree can help you do it faster and more easily than you are doing it now. But it can't help you unless you take the first step and add it to your site today. Head over to MiloTree.com. Sign up now and receive your first 30 days free. Sign up for MiloTree now and get your first 30 DAYS FREE! Interview Timestamps  0:58 Pinterest Strategies for Changing Features    3:35 The Purpose of Pinterest  5:38 Using Smart Loop  7:05 Lifting the Maximum Pins Threshold  9:52 Evaluate Your Pins 11:08 Gaining Followers with Smart Loop   13:07 Setting Loops 14:15 Growing your Followers 18:00 Smart Loop Is Not Spam 20:45 Video on Pinterest 24:04 How to Use Hashtags on Pinterest 29:02 Using Pinterest like Your Friends 31:00 Commenting On Pins 33:47 Pinterest Communities 37:20 Kate's Course Get Full Podcast Transcript Here * Post may contain affiliate links. If you click and make a purchase, I might receive a small commission at no cost to you.*

In this episode, I bring Kate Diete & Paul McCann on the line to discuss a fascinating project they're doing. Starting out as 1st-time entrepreneurs, they've taken on the challenge of starting 12 NEW businesses in 12 months! On the podcast we go deep into exactly why they're doing it, what strategies they're using to make sure each of their businesses is successful, and much more. There are a ton of applicable strategies here for all businesses, at all stages of growth. Tune in and enjoy! Make sure to SHARE this podcast/episode with your friends, then leave us a REVIEW and get my "101 Conversion Tips" Cheat Sheet... free! Send an email to support@jeremyreeves.com with the name on your review. Resources Mentioned * http://innerwanderlust.com/* http://teawitty.com/ Can I Help Grow Your Business? Visit http://www.JeremyReeves.com or email me at support@JeremyReeves.com and let's chat. Enjoy! Transcript Jeremy Reeves: Hey, this is Jeremy Reeves with another episode of the Sales Funnel Mastery podcast and I have some pretty cool guests in the line today. I actually have two guests today and they’re gonna be kind of teaming up as we talk about this. Their names are Kate Diete and Paul McCann and I am pretty sure I got -- you just told me and I already kind of forget. So they are from innerwanderlust.com and essentially I’m gonna let them say exactly what they’re doing but essentially what they are doing is they made a challenge for themselves to do 12 new start-ups in 12 months and be cash flow positive in all of them and they’re actually doing really well so far. I was kind of reading up on them and looking at their results they’re having so far and it’s pretty fascinating and I love the challenge, number one because I love challenges because I think they’re fun and number two because it’s just a really cool challenge. They’re also doing all that while traveling the world. So I will let them give you the details on everything. We’re gonna get in depth not only on what they’re doing, but how they’re doing it and the marketing strategies they’re using to, to be cash flow positive in all their various businesses and that kind of thing. So we will dive into some good stuff, but for now… Kate and Paul, how you guys doing? Paul: Yeah, really good. Thanks for having us. Kate: Great. Thank you. Jeremy Reeves: Nice, nice. I actually didn’t even know when I called them but they’re actually in Vietnam right now. So maybe they can tell us a little bit about their travels too but -- tell everybody -- give us kind of a quick summary of exactly what you are doing, just expand a little bit on what I brought up earlier. Paul: Yeah, cool. So this year, yeah I guess we christened it kind of like a year of learning for so and we haven’t started a business before this year but we always have a lot of ideas and we want to throw ourselves into things, but we also wanted a way of measuring it and so, because of the number of ideas, we thought okay we can do more than just one and then the measuring came in with one a month. So we wanted to get something not bad, test the market, see if there was any sort of traction and pivot measure it and then as it worked launch it and yeah so far it’s been going okay and definitely -- so we have been doing all this while traveling as well. So we visited 22 countries so far this year and we found that traveling has really, really helped with the inspiration for coming up with and you know, not only the ideas for certain strategies of how to pitch them at particular demographics that we were looking at as well. Jeremy Reeves: Nice, nice. So tell us about some of the businesses, you don’t have to go through all of them but maybe some of your favorite ones since you launched a whole bunch already. What are some of the businesses that you came up with so far? Kate: Yeah, sure. So there has been a real mix, so I think something we have done which probably wasn’t the smartest thing was to do something in a different industry every time. Paul: That definitely wasn’t planned. Kate: It wasn’t planned, but it has been great experience. So one of our favorites is a tea subscription service. It is a lose weight tea, focused on health and we traveled around and we visit tea plantations and we sourced the tea which is amazing to do whilst traveling. Another one is a TV documentary which we are really excited about. So we soar as we are traveling around but you know there is so much happening with start-up scenes around the world but we didn’t actually hear about a lot of it when were both living in London so we felt we really deserve to have spotlight put on it so we decided that we wanted to film around -- so far I think we are on the 11th country and it’s gonna be producing to a six-series episodes to show the emerging markets and what’s happening within the start-up ecosystem of each. Jeremy Reeves: Wow, nice. Paul: Also, yes, we just got a meeting with different people from different stages of their journey so everything from literally someone here would have an idea of two weeks previous to people who just got funded by a VC to a multi-million dollar start-ups even to people who have accessed their start-ups and speaking to angel investors and venture capitalists and literally you name it. We are just trying to paint a real picture of the ecosystem, so that’s has been really interesting. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah. I love it. It’s really cool. One of the reason that I want to talk to you guys because to me it’s fascinating and one of the things you mentioned -- so you never had a business before starting this challenge? Kate: Yeah, correct. We have never had any experience to this. We both work corporately, but we felt like it was our time and we always wanted to so. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah and that had to be kind of a scary thing. I think it’s hard enough for people just to leave the corporate world to start one business let alone a new business every single month for a year. How did you get over that kind of fear, anxiety in the beginning? How did you feel like the first week or when you quit your job or when you first started that first business? How was the mental process going through that? Paul: Wow. Well for both of us, I can speak for Kate on this one, I don’t often do that. There wasn’t really any fear. As Kate said, it was really our time and I for one practically skipped into work the day I handed them the notice and pure excitement of what was the come and before then I worked really, really hard. We both had to kind to get to the level where we were at and we just find really, really unfulfilling I mean what we have achieved in the last 10 months and we are more proud of and though we spent you know, I don’t know, I have spent over 10 years trying to get to where I got in the corporate world and at that point I was very happy with where I got but yeah the last 10 months completely and blows all out the way to be honest. Kate: I think you know something also we just, we also soar -- you know, if we created this 12 businesses and they all failed it’s not -- well it’s not a failure. We would deem it as a learning. We wouldn’t have like a big year of learning whereas you know, obviously the goal for us is to create successful businesses but, you know, that’s the full work. Paul: Yeah, and one thing what we have noticed is, we have actually gotten more time, the further into the project we got, because we have got a lot slicker with what we were doing and so the more and more we have been learning, the quicker we have been able to do a lot of the tasks that before it took us a lot of time, so it’s -- yeah, I mean, then we were wrong, it’s still a lot of work and there’s a lot of learning to be done and it’s a strange paradox as it were because you know, when we first started at the first couple of months we just seemed to be not sleeping and really burning the candle at both ends trying to make things happen, whereas now, we are okay but still probably not sleeping that much but it feels like we have more time. Jeremy Reeves: Okay, nice. I know you are kind of mixing this with traveling, so how do you -- when you wake up like any given day or given week maybe that might even be easier. How does your schedule look as you are building all these different businesses, because I know -- I know just as a business owner it’s hard enough running one business and keeping everything and keeping all your -- figuring out exactly what you have to do every day and how you are gonna keep growing and everything combined. I am interested to learn how you, number one I guess, the systems that you kind of figure it out since the beginning of the year and then also how you kind of, how you kind of scheduled your time when you are -- because you are starting a new one every month so -- for example, you are starting a new one in November, so what happens with some of your older ones like the one you started in February, March. How do you kind of keep up with everything and manage it all? Kate: It’s a good question. So essentially, the idea is we continue working in all the businesses because there is no point of just launching it -- you can tell a lot within a month, but I think you can tell more once you have launched it. So it’s right to give it more time to see how it goes, but we were really highly structured I would say without time so we used an app could Wunderlist and we put everything in. So we are always prioritizing on time. We are still working -- actually we always will work around 12 hours a day because we love what we do and I guess the traveling -- a lot of people asked us whether it’s a distraction but for us it really stimulates our creativity. So we just meet some of the amazing people and we get a lot of ideas from that as well. So we -- I think around like maybe 6 or 7 of our start-ups have been based around sights we’ve seen whilst traveling. Jeremy Reeves: Oh wow, okay. Paul: Yeah, because when we started the challenge we had around 10, 11 ideas for businesses and we were like, this will be fun which we only need to come up with 1 more and then as it happens we got rid of about 8 of them, well 7 sorry and so we’ve only actually launched, I think, it’s 2 or 3 as Kate said, that we actually originally had. So everything else has come from traveling but just to expound on what Kate said as well. With the traveling, it maybe keeps us out of our comfort zone because we’re not really ever getting, we are not in a place really long enough to be comfortable. You always see an opportunity everywhere and perhaps, well I say opportunity, but what I mean by that is, like problems and then problems that you can solve which ultimately become opportunity so... Jeremy Reeves: Nice. I love that and that -- that always inspires me, traveling. For some reason, it brings out so much creativity in you. Even if you bring it down to just a very kind of minimal scale, I know that I write a lot and I’m kind of like an idea generator for -- not for new businesses, but for my client projects, my own projects and things like that. You know learn and show them how to market better and make more sales and that kind of thing, and I know that when I’m stuck on an idea, the worst possible thing to do is sit in my chair. The best thing I’ve ever discovered in -- with coming up with new ideas and you know being creative and inspired is getting up out of my chair usually out of my house and going for a walk or going outside and spending 5 to 10 minutes playing with the dogs or going upstairs and seeing the kids and it’s just something about -- and just getting in that new experience and it’s -- when you travel it’s just that magnified like a thousand times. Do you guys do stuff like that like when you are coming up with new ideas and kind of planning your projects, do you do anything like that like make sure that you have that -- that you get refreshed by travel before you come up the ideas or do you do that only when you get stuck, any kind of thoughts on that? Kate: I think because we are traveling so much and we are seeing so many new things, we haven’t really being that stuck on ideas which is being quite nice but it sounds so more -- I guess we’ve kind of train our brains to be more entrepreneurial and look for the problems. So we’re often like jotting down things that we see every day and see if we noticed any patterns which we have noticed from like country to country and market to market just being quite interesting but yes I don’t think -- and I think it slows -- I don’t think it slowed down at all so, yeah. We always out and about. So you know even if we -- when we’re working, will be working in a different place everyday so sometimes we will go to a coffee store and other times, we will visit a co-working space. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, so you’re constantly being refreshed every day. It’s awesome. Nice. So let’s move a little bit into more of like the marketing you are doing and how you’re being so successful because like I said, it’s hard enough -- when people start businesses. There is such a high failure rate with businesses. So tell me, first I can start with how you guys are doing, you don’t have to give like specific revenue or anything like that if you don’t want to but just in terms of like I guess cash-flow positive or negative, tell us and after that let’s talk a little bit about why you think you’ve done so well because I know you are doing really, really well. Let’s start getting into more of the actual like marketing and why you are being -- you’re so successful when so many other people are failing even within -- I know a lot of people who have a business and they launched a new product and it doesn’t work and you already have the momentum and you guys are going into all different markets where you don’t have a name or reputation or anything and your successful and pretty much everyone. Tell us a little bit about that and start I guess with how successful everything has been so far. Kate: Yeah, sure. So I mean -- I think a lot of the things that come from I guess decisions we have made, so one of them is that we decided to be very lean. So we want everything to be pretty much online. So our outlay cost has been very minimal so -- when we say that -- it took us 3 months to get cash positive in all the businesses. It was with a small outlay but it was by about month 5, I believe, that we were earning enough to be able to sustain our travels which we were very excited about because we thought it might have taken, we sort of saved up for the whole year just in case because obviously businesses are very hard to get traction and we do work a lot of marketing as well so we we’ve tried everything so we’re all about trying, failing, trying again but some of the things we do has been traveling around to give talks and we tried to get a lot of press so we have been talked about in various different light so that sometimes with our specific business, other times about our challenge, other times about things that we have tried and potentially failed on or not worked or -- we also use a lot of social media. Paul: Yeah and so -- and as we’ve been traveling around and it has been good in terms of -- I guess getting feedback from -- as we’ve been traveling around we got involved in much of the start-ups it seems we’ve been making a lot of contacts as well and from that -- we’ve got recently good network now so we can reach out to people who have been there, done that or are actually working in that industry as well where we can look what they’re doing and see if we can adapt it in any way for ourselves and we also go to a lot of meet-ups as well again so surrounding ourselves with like-minded people and trying to get again going back to the feedback on that one and I guess because now we’ve got a number of businesses, there is a lot of chance of cross promotion as well so, I mean, we have [inaudible 00:20:01] and which is Innerwanderlust and then we write about all, you know, learnings, pivots, how well we are doing and I guess tools we used and how we are doing it but then all the individual businesses will write a little bit about them as well but then that allows us to kind of get a bit of momentum behind it when we launch so people could check it out and also with some businesses, our complimentary to all this and so we can kind of overlap them and then double promote and hope that we, you know, we get some traction back from that as well so. Jeremy Reeves: So, one of the concepts in there that I kind of heard come out several times actually is a lot of your success actually has do with the relationships would that be -- would that be accurate? Kate: Yeah, I would say so. Paul: Yeah, definitely. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah and I think that is one thing that a lot of people they underestimate is your relationships because you can leverage relationships in so many different ways whether it’s, you know, you know somebody who knows somebody or they can give you like a new contact for example, if you knew somebody who, you know, you are starting a new business in the UK and they -- a reporter in the UK, you can get some press or going out and doing joint ventures with them or having them, you know, telling their own audience about your new business and that kind of thing. Do you have any with -- with that particularly, is there any kind of strategy you guys used or you just kind of like genuine and authentic and it’s kind of like you and you just get in touch with them and that kind of thing or is there anything like really specific that you do to build your relationship and that kind of thing or is it kind of just you go and you just start to meet as many people as you can and then just let some of the important relationships kind of float to the top and the other one is kind of fall away -- tell us a little bit about that. Paul: Yeah, I guess -- so before we visit any location as well we tend to do a lot of reading, a lot of research and largely most of our time is taken off by research to be honest. From that, we get a good picture of or we will try to get the best possible picture we can of where we are going and then that helps also with filming and then obviously to the documentary and then from that we reach out to key people who we believe will not only I guess help the documentary but also help the particular market and country where we’re in to give the best possible picture and then in doing so it enables us to form good relationships with these people and as you know, they want to promote what they’re promoting and it’s kind of -- Kate: Win-win. Paul: Yeah, it’s a win-win basically. So they get good exposure from that and then also we both form a relationship and yeah. Jeremy Reeves: Okay, nice, nice. I love that. Like I said it is something that a lot of people -- they’re so busy like kind of just doing the little minutiae that they forget about some of the bigger leverage points like the relationships and that kind of thing. So my next question is, in terms of -- one of the things that you mentioned before was that you focus and you kind of like trained your brain almost to find problems and then you figure out it’s like, number one, okay, where is the problem and you’ve trained your brain to find -- to see problems of people are having and then the second part of that is okay, what’s the solution, how can we bring something different to the market to solve that problem in a different way and when it comes down to a business that’s really all entrepreneurship. It’s just finding problems and giving solutions. So how about when you guys are -- when you’re in that process of your -- you find the problem what you seemed to be really good at, you seemed to find the problems everywhere and it’s almost like a thing that is not having new ideas but a problem of figuring out which idea to move forward with, and then you come to the phase where you are figuring out the solution. Do you have any kind of any specific strategy that you use for that or is it more of just like you find the problem and then you come to that, okay what’s the solution and you start researching how other competitors are already providing their solution or how does that go? Kate: Yeah, so essentially, I mean we used lots of different methods, it all boils probably back down to lean methodologies which we really love because it’s something that you know, you can get something out there very quickly and the whole build measure learn but I guess a lot of the things we do like -- I guess we talk to a lot of people so we’re always going to meet-ups as we mentioned before, we do a lot of surveys with our network. We talk to people online and to anyone we’ve met, basically anyone that would listen, but we also look at our competitors, I think that is a big thing that we need to always do because even if they are an indirect competitors there is someone that is may be looking at -- doing -- solving the same problem but in a complete different way. They’re competitors and maybe there is even someone you can work with potentially to continue to solve the problem with them. Yeah, but I think first and foremost let’s say people, like talking to people don’t be like -- we are not afraid to share our ideas. Paul: No, definitely. I mean getting feedback is probably one of the most valuable things you can do because you can come up with what do you think is the greatest idea but then if everybody else is like I don’t really understand what that is or perhaps having to see these other people who were doing it or even you know that idea isn’t very good. You kind of need to feel that as quick as possible so you can neither adapt it, pivot, or shelve it. Jeremy Reeves: Okay. Kate: Let’s try and make this quick as possible. Jeremy Reeves: Okay, yeah, yeah. So how long -- when you get an idea, say December 1st then it’s time to launch that new -- that new project. How long is it from when you say, okay, it’s time to start working on this until it’s actually live in the marketing place. Kate: It’s usually within the month but it could honestly be quicker because you can learn a lot free market very quickly like through the surveys. You talk into people if you know you put all your focus into it. We both believe that once you launch something you actually learned a lot more because that is when you know you are actually asking for people to potentially pay for something or you know to be a part of something that’s when you learn the actual truth. Paul: Yeah, definitely and also I think, not too sure who said this quote but it makes a lot of sense which is and “It is not to be perfect, it just has to be done.” I think you can spend so much time trying to get something to look absolutely pristine and perfect and you know, something that perhaps you want to take out for dinner but it doesn’t need to be that way initially and as long as, you know, everyone can understand what it is that you’re doing and you’re offering something that people want and then you can put all the nice trimmings afterwards. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah. So do you guys, you know, when you -- you say you have the kind of the process of launching it really quick which I love because I 100% agree on that. Do you then go back, so like it’s November now, are you now going back to some of your projects and starting to make some of those tweaks to improve it and maybe play around with the price or playing around with the offer or that kind of thing? Kate: Yeah for sure, all the time actually. So we have regular growth hacking sessions on but like just to give an example of one. So, our very first sort of tea, I think we pivoted like quite big pivots about 4 or 5 times now and so you can see the transformation through that and we have learned so much in it and also look back to our second start-up and just what it looked like when we first launch as opposed to how it is now, it’s a huge difference than -- it’s great to see it progressed and -- Jeremy Reeves: Okay, nice. I love that because it’s -- especially when you have -- so many, it’s probably challenging just to go back and look and you know see what needs to be changed and even have the kind of brain space to even think about it. What project are you working on this month? Paul: This month we are working on something that solves a problem and within the start-up industry. It is something that I’m quite excited about and it is something -- and it has taken a lot of effort and I mean all of us take a lot of effort but this one is kind of have been brewing for -- I mean we first came up with the idea and I would say in its first version would probably be and quite a few months to go now and then we have been looking for a way to position that idea and as we have experienced more, we have pivoted away from the original idea and got this will be better and then again we just kind of wiggled through with it I would say, for the lack of a better word, for quite a few months and now we’re really, really close to kind of ad leasing which we’re pretty excited about. Jeremy Reeves: Okay, nice. Yeah, I love it, I love it. Yeah, nice. So how about -- when this is over, do you have any plans for like what’s next for 2016, is there -- do you have anything in place now or are you gonna continue to do new business every month or you’re gonna, you know, maybe take your, maybe top couple that are making the most revenue, focus on that, do you have any plans for next year? Kate: Yes, I guess we won’t be continuing the one per month idea. We’re looking to -- we would like to see which one is -- I guess are going well. We will probably focus on the ones that actually got growth. I mean it’s hard to -- we might look soon as well at cutting or retiring some of the ideas that aren’t working as well or hiring because some it you know just obviously managing 12 businesses is quite a lot of work. Paul: Yeah, and we want to give them all the best possible chance to succeed and then understand the one or two that we feel could grow a lot faster if they have more focus, but not so much focus, but a dedicated person doing a particular task which is required for that business and to scale it quickly and as Kate said, you know, we are running sort of 9 or 10 businesses now. We just don’t have that sort of time, sadly. Jeremy Reeves: Okay, nice. So over the past, you know 10, 11 months, is there anything that really stood out? Bringing it back to like specific applicable kind of lessons that the people can implement in their businesses. I know I have gotten actually probably at least 8 or 10 ideas just from talking for at least half hour. Is there anything specifically so, you know, now that you guys are true entrepreneurs and you are going to be building businesses probably the rest of your life I would imagine. Is there -- what are some of like the biggest failures that you guys had, that you’re taking the lessons from them because I know you are huge into failing but failing to learn the lesson. So what are some of the like the big giant flops that you’ve had over the last 11 months or so, and how are you going to -- how are you going to use the lessons from them to, you know, number one, not make mistakes again obviously, but to kind of use that to -- I’m trying to think how I’m trying to say this like to leverage it into faster growth in the future? Kate: Yeah, I think one of the biggest ones was with our first start-up it was basically pitching the completely wrong demographic which it was quite funny because with tea, we thought that it was quite of an older demographic and we are getting involved with an old different things and we were wondering why there was no traction. Basically, we found out, I mean a couple months in that -- it was essentially the demographic was falling off, also demographic that that was young between 18 to 35 and more like health conscious. It was a complete surprise we merely learned that through the statistics that -- I guess one thing is to not be too attached to the idea. Paul: Yeah, I had to agree with that one. Jeremy Reeves: That’s a good one. I love that. Kate: You come and look it like as business and even though, you know, it’s quite different to the idea that we originally thought it’s much better and you got to be able to learn to let go of that, you know, that’s my baby, this is how I was meant to be, but if the market is not there for you, you need to got to move on. Paul: Yeah, I guess spending time on the things that truly matter as well so and I said earlier it didn’t have to be perfect, it has to be done. I guess you only have a certain amount of time each day and you need to be doing the tasks that matter in the right order whether you know one particular task isn’t something that you really don’t want to do. It doesn’t really matter. It just needs to get done and so yeah, not dodging some tasks until they have to get done and making sure you work for the correct priority and yeah. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, and you know what, I would even take that a step further even and kind of put in a different context and there are -- I mean I talk to all kinds of people in all sorts of industries and different phases of the business and all kind of stuff like that and one of the things that I seemed that kind of reflects this whole kind of theme is being too attached and whether it is to the demographic or the product or whatever it is, I find a lot of people who think, even with sales funnels, I build sales funnels for my clients every day of my life that’s what I -- that’s what I do and I have, just for one example, I have someone come to me I think it was last week, maybe earlier this week I forgot but it was in the last the 7 days or so, and they came to me and they were under $100,000, I think they only made like $20,000 to that point and so we were talking and then I said “you know that is wouldn’t be really in my [inaudible 00:35:05]” just because of budget constraints and stuff like that and they were really, really, really focused that they had -- the first thing they had to do is build this big elaborate sales funnel and I told them and I’m like, “listen, you don’t have to do that right now”. They were adamant about that they have to had a sales funnel and that was gonna solve all their problems and I said, “No, I sell sales funnels all day, but you have to be in the right -- it has to be the right time for the business.” When you are under $100,000 or so, it should be -- you should basically be in hustle mode, like you should be going out boots to the ground just doing anything you have to, to get sales and usually that’s building relationships like we are talking about before. Sales funnel -- wouldn’t do -- a big elaborate one at least wouldn’t do as much for somebody in that kind of income range versus somebody who was already at a couple of $100,000. I come across that all the time of people who come and they say, “No, I need to do this next” and I have to kind of fight with them a little bit and say, “Yeah, we have to do that soon, but we have to do this and this and this first” and a lot of times it takes a lot of explaining to get them like past that point because they are just -- they are kind of like cling on to it. I see a lot of kind of similarities in what you guys are saying and just moving that into other areas of businesses as well, just don’t be too attached to really anything, whether it’s may be an employee or the next thing that you would think you need to do or like what you guys were talking about. I think that is an important point. Is there anything, I mean anything else that really has kind of like, hit you on the head? Paul: I guess to go away just having so slightly from the learning time I would say and one of the biggest things that surprised me is just the kind of pay it forward mentalities of the entrepreneurs and because literally, every single person that we have met pretty much, and is just willing to give you so much good advice, so much support, so much help, and literally what you got to do is ask for it and just something completely different than I’ve ever experienced previously so I would say yeah. There is another quote that I know, “If you don’t ask, the answer is always no.” That will be the learning for that one. Jeremy Reeves: Nice and that is -- you know, it’s true. Yeah, that’s basically just true -- period. That is funny. Actually, I was just looking and I know this is completely random, but what’s the URL for your tea website that you have? Kate: Oh, it’s Teawitty.com. Jeremy Reeves: Okay, oh my keyboard is actually dying on me, that’s not good. Yeah, I know that was completely random, but I’m actually -- I have been drinking tea as you are talking about. Yeah, I was kind of like laughing at it, but yeah, I drink tea all the time, so I’m actually going to look at it personally. So, I think that kind of about wraps it up. Do you guys have any -- like kind of final thoughts, anything that I should have asked that I didn’t asked that you think is really important for people to know whether -- regardless of the phase that there in. There is probably a lot of people listening to this that aren’t really in the start-up phase, but like I said, there is a lot of things that you guys talked about that are 100% relevant to anybody in any business stage. Especially, taking your failures and learning from them and not being attached and -- I mean there is a whole bunch of others. Is there anything that I should have asked or I didn’t or any kind of like -- any kind of insight that you guys had that you -- speaking of giving it back, anything that you, any kind of insight or, you know, just something that you’ve learned that you think would help other entrepreneurs, you know to further their business? Paul: Yeah, I mean going back to what you said previously, I guess it’s just not being afraid to hustle as well you know Kate and I for the tea business, you know, we took to the streets of London in the rain and London could be a pretty harsh place as it is to be on this than -- if you’re trying to hand someone a bit of paper, trying the flyer and to get someone to notice you, to get some feedback and then try doing it in the rain as well. It can be pretty damaging to your ego to be honest but we persevered with that and from that and we credit off our sale because from that [inaudible 00:39:54] idea because people weren’t too keen to take the bit of paper that we were giving them and we are like, what else can we do, what can we do to be in people’s homes, be in people’s workspaces so they will notice us and think of us, so we then came with the idea to put tea in sort of sample packs. So we were like, we will give the people free tea, everyone would want free tea. So we have a lot more success with that and then from that as well we were at an event and it was --- there was a journalist there who loves tea, so we gave him some of the samples and then the next day we woke up and we wrote about in Lifehacker and it just so happened that he was the journalist in Lifehacker and he actually coined the travel packs, sorry, the sample packs as travel packs as well and which we were like okay, we kind of only thought of them as samples. He was like, “Oh loose leaf travel packs, this is amazing” and we were like, “great” and then at the same time, we have been getting tweets back from our people who were took the samples as well, and we were like, “Oh really, love your travel packs and we were like, “amazing” okay and then from that we -- yeah, but that was another pivot and we were like okay we give you lose leaf travel packs as well. Jeremy Reeves: That’s funny. Yeah, a lot of times, a lot of times you’ll learn like -- as you come out, you think that your idea is like the idea and then someone says something like that and it just changes the whole dynamic of everything. That’s awesome, I love that. Paul: Definitely. Yeah, I guess just listening to feedback in what your customers say about you and -- if it’s something good or bad to be honest, just make sure you act on it. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, absolutely. I really appreciate you guys coming on. Why don’t you tell everybody, because you guys -- I know you have a blog and you are kind of like journaling this whole year and all your insights that you are having and that kind of thing, I’m actually on it right now. So tell everybody where they can go to find out more about you and to find out where they can kind of follow your story that you’re doing and find -- kind of look at some of the websites that you have been building and that kind of thing. Kate: Yeah, sure. Everything is pulled altogether under www.innerwanderlust.com so we talk about like our journey, traveling our new experiences, the pivots, anything we have tried, so yeah, come over and try [inaudible 00:42:23]. We also have another thing to mention is that we love meeting people so please feel free to get in touch with us. Jeremy Reeves: Sounds good, sounds good. www.Innerwanderlust that will be in the show notes for everybody so if you’re on your phone there will be a link there, if you listen to your computer, it will be on the show notes so just go there and it will go right to their website. Thanks again for coming up. I really enjoyed this conversation, I think it’s, you know, everybody -- a lot of the stuff we talked about is so focused on sales funnels and I have been kind of lately, I have been getting a little bit out of that just to kind of bring some fresh insights and perspectives to everything. We talked about different things and you guys talked about stuff that a lot of people don’t really talked about all that much anymore in the marketing world, it’s so much about, you know, tactics and going outwards and do this thing and go on Facebook and here is how you could find new audiences and segmentation all that kind of stuff and it’s just refreshing to hear of someone who -- when everybody else is having such a hard time you guys are just completely flourishing and I can see why now. So kudos on that. Kate and Paul: Thank you so much for having us. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah. Thanks again and I will talk to you soon. Kate: Great. Paul: Definitely, thanks.