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Tonight‘s group consisted mostly of a monologue (out of necessity) about how it is that we are to read the Fathers. We have learned over these few years that one must read in a discerning and discriminating fashion, as well as prayerfully. There is great wisdom to be found within the ascetical writings, however, we must understand that the spiritual life and the personal struggle of each of the desert monks was unique. Furthermore, the desert itself was a laboratory like no other. In the deep solitude, the fathers saw with great clarity the workings of the human mind and heart as well as temptations that came from within and through demonic provocation.  If there is one point that I wanted to make clear in pressing through this with the group is that our love of virtue, of God and our desire to be free of the passions can lead us not only into extremes of discipline but also into a kind of psychological violence. The sorrow over our own poverty and sin can lead us to repress certain parts of our personality and aspects of our life as human beings that are a source vitality and the capacity to love. We have often spoken about desire being at the heart of the spiritual life; we seek He  alone who can fill what is lacking within us.  Yet when the ascetic life is treated like a defense mechanism, we can project our struggles and responsibility for ourselves onto others or, in the intensity of the struggle, repress that which is essential to being fully human. This is not an ancient phenomenon. Those who engage in the spiritual battle today can be tempted in similar ways. Each generation is unique in regards to the nature of the battle but the same pitfalls remain. It is for this reason that the ascetical life cannot be seen as an end in itself. It must begin with Christ, our relationship with him and our trust in his mercy and grace. Devoid of this relationship, the ascetic life can draw us into self focus that is destructive to us both emotionally and spiritually. Thus, our reading of the fathers places upon us a responsibility to be striving at the same time to draw close to Christ. Otherwise, the spiritual life can become a tragic distortion of the truth rather than the source of healing that it is meant to be. The current state of affairs within the life of the Church and the disconnect with this greater spiritual tradition points to such a distortion. When Christianity becomes a cultural phenomenon and whenever even its deepest and most beautiful forms of prayer become habitual and automatic, it becomes lifeless. Let us take heed then of this great responsibility and entrust ourselves to the grace of God and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. All things are possible with God, but without him there is  only darkness or a sad simulation of faith. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:13:17 Bob Čihák, AZ: P 230, K 00:23:29 Rachel: Is the connection instable for anyone else? 00:23:42 Rachel: unstable* 00:24:21 Monk Maximos: Replying to "unstable*" Mine is fine 00:24:44 Nypaver Clan: Reacted to "Mine is fine" with

Did you know oak supports over 2,300 species of wildlife? Discover this and more fascinating facts in our episode dedicated to the nation's favourite tree. We join Trust experts, Jules and Kate, at Londonthorpe Woods, near Grantham, to find some fascinating growths on oak trees, known as galls, and learn why hunks of deadwood are so important.  We then visit the star of the show and 'Lincolnshire's best kept secret' - the astonishing 1,000-year-old Bowthorpe Oak. It's one of 12 amazing oaks in the running for 2024 Tree of the Year. Which one will you vote for? Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.  Adam: Well, in this podcast, we're looking at the Woodland Trust's Tree of the Year competition, which is all about oaks and is on a quest to find the nation's favourite one. And there are lots to choose from. There is the Elephant Oak in the New Forest, the Queen Elizabeth Oak in West Sussex, the Darwin Oak in Shropshire, the Capon Oak on the Scottish Borders and plenty of others to choose from across Wales, Somerset, County Fermanagh, Cheshire and well, lots of other places as well. And you can vote for your favourite oak by going to the shortlist of them at the voting site woodlandtrust.org.uk/vote, so that is woodlandtrust.org.uk/vote and we'll repeat that again at the end of this podcast.   Well, today I'm going to see one of the oaks in contention for the Tree of the Year, the Bowthorpe Oak in Bourne, in Lincolnshire, a tree which has a hollow interior and had previously, that interior had been fitted with seats and had been used as a dining room for 20 people in the past, 20 people! It must have been an enormous oak and that's not a practice I think that's recommended these days. Well, certainly not. But nonetheless it's a great oak which has played a great big part in the local landscape and is much loved, not just in the UK but attracts plenty of visitors from abroad as well. Now, oaks have an amazingly important part in our culture and in days gone by were, I think, central in Druid folklore, for instance, in fact one amazing fact I have learnt making this podcast is that the name Druid comes from druer, the Celtic for oak for the word oak and wid means to know, so Druid means oak-knower, so there's a good fact for you. Anyway, enough of me. I'm off to meet some people who know all about oaks and unusually I am not starting by a tree. So, unusually, we're starting in a car and I'm joined by two women from the Woodland Trust. So first of all, introduce yourselves.  Kate: I'm Kate Lewthwaite. I am citizen science manager at the Woodland Trust.  Adam: Wonderful. And our driver for the day is...  Jules: Hi, I'm Jules Acton. I'm a fundraiser with the Woodland Trust.  Adam: So we're going to look at a few oaks today, one of which is actually in the running to be the Tree of the Year, and you can vote on that still and I'll give you details a little later on on how to do that. But first of all, you were telling me that you have a little present for me. I always like to start the day with a little present.  Jules: It's always good to start the day with a little present, I think and here's a little one for you.   Adam: Oh, and it's wrapped up in tissue paper. It's an early Christmas present. How very good. So what is that? OK so do you want to describe it?   Jules: OK so it's a little, it looks like a little woody marble really, doesn't it? And it's got a little tiny hole you can see just there and some extra other little tiny holes. That is an oak marble gall.  Adam: An oak marble...ghoul?  Jules: Gall.  Adam: And how do you spell that?  Jules: G A double L.  Adam: G A double L and what what is it?  Jules: So this is this is incredibly special, so this has in many ways changed human culture, this little tiny thing. Certainly amplified human culture. So this is a gall, which is made by, and it's made by a little tiny wasp. And the wasp lays a an egg in the in the bud of the tree of the oak tree. And it makes the oak change and it sort of changes chemically. It's really strange. And it makes the the oak form this little marble shaped thing on the end of a twig. And that becomes home for the gall wasps' larvae, and so that the little larva grows up inside it and it has this its own special home, but it's also full of lovely food. So that's interesting itself and that it's it's it's it's got this sort of little little home but it what's particularly interesting human, from the human perspective is that these kind of galls were used to make ink for about 1,000 years and the the kind of ink that they made, it was used, I think, until the middle of the 20th century. So kind of until quite recently. So Shakespeare's plays were written on oak gall ink, Newton's theories, the American Declaration of Independence, huge amounts of historic documents.  Adam: So just trying to understand that, Shakespeare's plays were written on ink created by this thing?  Jules: By a gall like, yeah, this kind of thing by by a gall. Yeah. But you can you can still now you can make gall gall ink from these little little things here. So it in many ways it it amplified, this little tiny thing we've got here, amplified the whole course of human history, culture, etcetera in our part of the world.  Adam: Quite an extraordinary place to start our journey today. Wonderful. So, OK, so we're, yes, we'll put that away nice and safe and we'll start our journey. Kate, do you just want to start by telling me what we're going to do when we get out of the car?  Kate: We're going to have a walk round Londonthorpe Wood, which is one of the Woodland Trust sites, one of our thousand woods that we own and we're going to see an oak tree that Jules has found for us to go and talk about.  Adam: Fantastic. All right, well, let's go.  Jules: Well, well so we've just seen some amazing galls on what looks like quite a young tree, it's probably about 30-years-old, would you say, Kate, this one?   Kate: Maybe, yes.  Jules: And, yeah, they're they're bright red and they're on the underside of the oak leaves and they look a bit like cherries and   Adam: I was going to say, the one you showed me was all grey, you gave me an old rubbish one, didn't you? This is what they look like when they're on the tree. It's red, it does look like a cherry.  Jules: Yeah, this is a particularly stunning one, isn't it? And they they are literally called cherry galls. And they again  Adam: They're called cherry balls?  Jules: Cherry galls.   Adam: Galls, cherry galls.  Jules: And they're about the same size as the marble gall that we saw earlier. And I believe they are also caused by a gall wasp. And but what is good about these kind of galls is that they're relatively easy to spot. So once you get your eye in, you start seeing them everywhere, so it's a really lovely thing to start doing, you know, with children or just looking yourself when you're out on a on a walk, you know.  Adam: Wow. So that shows that a wasp has formed that?  Jules: Yeah  Adam: And these are non-stinging wasps, aren't they?  Jules: These are non-stinging wasps. They're teeny, teeny, tiny wasps. They don't look like your your black, you know the big black and and and yellow stripey things that come at your ice cream, not that there's anything wrong with those wasps, they're lovely too.  Adam: Inside that gall is baby wasps? Is that?  Jules: There will be a little larvae inside there.  Adam: And that's what they're using as as food, or is it?  Jules: Yes, that's their home but it's also their food source. And I'm not at some point in the year the the the little tiny wasp, once it's developed, will will kind of drill its way out and then be set free to the to the wider world. But I think we'll find some other kinds of galls, actually. So it might be worth us moving on a little bit and just see if we can.  Adam: OK. Moving on, yeah, that's politely telling me to be quiet and start walking.  Jules: Oh sorry *laughs*  Adam: Sorry, there's a, oh it's a tractor going up and down the field next to us. So that's what the noise is in the background. But the fact that we we sort of just held a branch here and and Kate was already, you know, lots of wildlife, jumped onto her jumper, does raise the issue about how many, how much wildlife an oak supports. And I was hear some fantastic number. Just tell me a little bit about that.  Jules: We know that the oak supports more than 2,300 species and that they could be species that that feed off the oak, that live inside it, that live on, on, on or or around it, that you know they perch in it. So species using the the oak tree in all different ways and they are, they they they're birds and mammals, they're lichen, fungi, invertebrates. All sorts of different kinds of species, but what's important, I think, is that they're only the species we've countered, and I think there are a huge number more that we just haven't got around to counting would, would you agree, Kate? You probably know more about this than me.  Kate: Yes, definitely. And some of those species can live on other types of tree, and some are only found on oak trees, so they're particularly important. And of course, we haven't started talking about the value of deadwood and all those wonderful rare beetles whose larvae live in the wood. So there's lots to be said about that as well.  Adam: I'll tell you what, let's just walk all further away from this tractor, which sounds closer than it is, and you can tell me about the importance of the deadwood.  Jules: Well we might see some spectacular deadwood.  Adam: Oh well, we might see some, OK. OK, so we have stopped by some deadwood and you're going to explain why, is that right? Right. OK. Kate is going to explain. Well, why have we stopped here, Kate?  Kate: Because deadwood is absolutely fantastic and we have a history of a nation of being a little bit too tidy and taking it away and using it for firewood and other things, when actually it's an amazing habitat in its own right. I'm just looking at the variety of rot holes, of larval galleries where the insect larvae have fed, and then the adults emerged. And it is like a whole habitat in its own right. And actually deadwood is really rare. Much of the woodland in the UK is not felt to be in good ecological condition and one of the reasons for that is a lack of deadwood. So it's incredibly important habitat and we don't have enough of it.  Jules: One of the things I didn't understand until recently and Kate, you might know more about this than me, but there's there's different kinds of deadwood. So if you have, it's important to have deadwood in different formats, so standing deadwood so when the old tree is still standing upright, and and deadwood that's lying down on the ground.  Adam: Right. What what why, so it matters if it's vertical or horizontal?  Jules: It it it matters that you have both kinds.  Adam: And why?  Jules: Because, I feel like I'm at the edge of my knowledge, so it's because about it's about different habitats, isn't it Kate, is that right?  Kate: Yeah, I think so. And the the wood will rot at a different rate. It's quite ironic because the one we're standing at now is actually at a 45° angle. So it's neither vertical nor nor horizontal. And of course, oak trees are absolutely full of of tannins, which I think are the same compound you find in the oak galls that enable the writing. But they also mean, you know this huge, great piece of deadwood here could be around for hundreds of years because it won't, it will rot very, very slowly.  Jules: And and one of the great things is when you have deadwood right next to living wood as well, because that creates all these different conditions which will suit different kinds of invertebrates and fungi as well, so that that's really important to have this collection of of different kinds of wood in in you know in a similar area.   Adam: Excellent. OK, we've, we've stopped. We've stopped Kate, and you've got very excited.  Kate: It happens quite easily when I'm out in nature. And there's a whole pile of knopper galls on the floor here, and they're black. You know, they've dropped off the tree. They've done their job. The the wasp has flown off. But I wondered if we could, I've no idea if this is gonna work, I wondered if we could actually try writing with them because they are oozing black.  Adam: Oh my, right, this is so exciting. OK, so this is like this is a modern day Shakespeare. Have you got? OK. The line is to be or not to be. I see. Hold on a second. So you've picked it up, right, I I think you might do something to it.   Kate: Well, I might have to. Shall we see, shall we see if it just?  Adam: Right, but you're not, you're just gonna?  Jules: Ohh there we go.  Kate: There is a brown ooze and it's I think it's not just from the path.  Adam: I was going to say, it's not just mud.  Kate: It's not. It's this kind of coffee colour.  Adam: Wow, OK. And you are writing to be or not to not be.  Kate: I am writing to be or not to be, I I don't know if I break it open a bit more if you might get. Ohh. This is gonna stain my nails, isn't it?  Adam: OK. Ohh dear, don't worry I'll I'll pay for the the visit to to the nail parlour.  Kate: *laughs* I shouldn't worry. Yes, we are actually getting some.  Adam: To be or not to be. Well, I'm sure that would have actually been mixed with water or something.  Kate: Most likely  Adam: Or some alcohol and put into a quill, but that does what hold on, let me just rub it, see. Well, I can confirm that is not just what we have now created ink. Proper exciting.  Kate: Absolutely.  Adam: Thank you very much. Well, we're heading away from our ink gall-bearing oaks to see the main attraction of the day, which is a short drive from here. It is the Bowthorpe Oak, one of the contenders for Tree of the Year. It is rooted in a grass paddock behind the 17th century farmhouse nearby. In 2002, the Tree Council, in celebration of the Golden Jubilee of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, designated the Bowthorpe Oak one of 50 great British trees. One of the 50 greatest British trees in recognition of its place in our national heritage. And I'm meeting the current custodian of the oak who runs the farm in which it lives.  George: My name is George Blanchard and I am one of the family members here that farm at Bowthorpe Park Farm.  Adam: Right. And you have, we're standing by this famous tree. People come here to see this tree?  George: They do, yeah, we get them from all over the world. A lot of lot of UK, obviously, Europe and America, we get a lot of interest from America.  Adam: Well, tell me a bit about this tree.  George: So this tree, the Bowthorpe Oak, is the UK's largest girthed oak tree. It's absolutely stunning as you can, as you can see, fully in leaf at the moment it looks amazing and yeah, that's it's claim to fame.  Adam: Right it's wide the widest I think it was the second widest tree in the UK. Is that right?  George: We know it's the largest largest oak tree in in terms of it's it's the most complete, you know. So I think there could be wider ones, but not quite as complete.  Adam: Not quite as good as your tree!  George: Yeah, exactly. This is yeah *laughs*  Adam: No, I agree. And and is is this a family farm? Is this?  George: It is yeah.  Adam: Right so you've grown up, you've you played under the boughs of this tree.  George: I have. Yeah, yeah and and inside it as well. Remember it is hollow so.  Adam: Right. Yeah. So tell me a bit about the sort of the folklore and the stories around the tree.  George: Yeah so oak trees naturally start to hollow at around 500 years old, but this one was hollowed even further, back in the 1700s by a chap called George Pauncefort and  Adam: It was, it was, it wasn't naturally hollow, he hollowed it out?  George: They they do, they do naturally hollow, but he hollowed it even further. And you can tell this when you're looking inside it, because the the sides are quite flat. It's very unnatural. You can see so the hollowing has been done by by tools. And so he also put benches around the inside of it and a and a doorway on on the west side and even even sort of paved the flooring but and and put a pigeon loft in the crown, which I think, I think back in the day in the 1700s, if you had a pigeon loft in your tree, you were somebody *laughs*.  Adam: Ohh really that's like Lamborghini time, right? OK, forget your Lamborghinis, I've got a pigeon loft in my tree.   George: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And he would have parties in there as as you would, wouldn't you?  Adam: Well, yeah, of course. I mean, you've gone to all that trouble. Was he a member of the family? Was this being passed down?   George: No, no, there's no there's no relation, no relation. We've we've only been farming here since the sort of late 40s.  Adam: Right. OK, amazing. Amazing stuff. And I mean, and it looks in fairly, I mean as you say, it's in good leaf, it's in also just it looks to the untutored eye in good nick as well, generally healthy.  George: It is yeah. Really good really good condition currently. We lost a a limb off the back and that was that was quite concerning because it's it's quite dramatic when they shed a shed a limb, but it is what they they naturally do. We have an inspection done on the tree annually, but at the time of losing the limb, we were, we were quite concerned. So we upped the type of inspection we had done. And they were quite, quite invasive, I say invasive it was, you know, using really small drills, to see if there's any adverse rotting in any places. But no, they were really happy with the condition of the tree and and how healthy it is so other than any sort of man-made issue, I don't see why it shouldn't carry on growing as it is.  Adam: And it's amazing because, I mean, you know, it's taken us quite a while to get here and people come here all this way just to see this tree.  George: They do, yes, yes, seek it out, we call it Lincolnshire's best kept secret.  Adam: Right. Amazing. From all over the world?  George: They do yeah yeah. From all over the world. Like I say, a lot of a lot of Europe people come from Europe and a lot of people come from America. We find that the two two types of people from America, those that really appreciate it and those that just can't get their head around it because it's nowhere near as big as their redwoods *laughs*  Adam: Right? Call this big. Call this big, you should see...  George: Exactly. Yeah, call this big, we've got bigger.  Adam: Yeah OK. Brilliant well thank you very much, I will take a tour round it.  George: Thank you.  Adam: So one of the other, now I have to say, first of all, let me have a look at the front front, we've taken a book with us because Jules has published a book called Oaklore and you've brought it out here because there is a poem about this oak in your book.  Jules: There is and it was written well over 100 years ago by a poet called John Clare and but the interesting thing is when he wrote this poem this would have already been an ancient tree, so it's it's quite an interesting record that he was standing in awe, looking at this tree, just like we are now really.  Adam: Right, right. So when did he write this?  Jules: I don't have the exact date in front of me, but I know it's over well over 100 years ago.  Adam: OK, well over 100 years and you're going to put on your best poetry reading voice.  Jules: *laughs* I'll have a go.  Adam: Go on, give us, I always love, I mean, we did this in the Sherwood Forest podcast where we took a book about Sherwood Forest and a book about a tree to the tree it's about. So we're now going to read a poem about the tree we're standing by. So this poem by John Clare.  Jules: And it's called Burthorp Oak. So here we go. Burthorp Oak.   Old noted oak! I saw thee in a mood  Of vague indifference; and yet with me  Thy memory, like thy fate, hath lingering stood  For years, thou hermit, in the lonely sea  Of grass that waves around thee! Solitude  Paints not a lonelier picture to the view,  Burthorp! than thy one melancholy tree  Age-rent, and shattered to a stump. Yet new  Leaves come upon each rift and broken limb  With every spring; and Poesy's visions swim  Around it, of old days and chivalry;  And desolate fancies bid the eyes grow dim  With feelings, that earth's grandeur should decay,  And all its olden memories pass away.  Adam: Brilliant. That's that's a lovely poem to read by by the tree.  Jules: I think it's quite interesting that he says age rent and shattered to a stump so it it sort of suggests that the tree is in a worse condition than now, wouldn't you say so Kate? And it looks like it might be happier now than when Clare saw it.  Kate: I was just looking at it and I mean it looks like some of those shoots have put on a good foot of growth this year. So that's the amazing thing about ancient oaks is they they so-called retrench. So all the limbs, the limbs drop off, they become shorter and and and wider and then they might all just start to sort of grow again and it sort of goes through these amazing cycles. Certainly there's a lot more vegetation on it than when I last saw it 15 years ago. It looks fabulous.  Adam: And also a lot of oaks grow very tall. This isn't so tall it it is wider, isn't it? It's a squatter tree. Is that because it's actually not had to compete, because it's actually in a field by itself isn't it? It's not competing for light with lots of other trees.  Kate: Yes, maybe. And also trees like this do, the really ancient trees they do tend to become short and squat and it's part, and hollow, and that's part of their survival strategy is that they'll shed some of these top branches and they'll, they'll shorten and and widen.  Adam: Right. I mean, oaks are really important, aren't they in the UK especially, they're part of the national identity, really, aren't they? And and a lot of that's got to do with folklore, which I know, Jules, you've written about as well.  Jules: Yeah, I mean the the oak has been part of our culture well, as far as as, as as far as we know as far as written records go back and even we we believe that the the Druids themselves were very also very interested in oak trees and they worshipped in oak groves and they particularly worshipped mistletoe, the rare mistletoe that came off off oaks. Of course, we don't have written records on the the Druids, so we don't, we know very little about them, but that's certainly what we believe. And then it's been threaded throughout our our history and our culture that the oaks right up to the present day, you know people are still writing about it and painting painting oak trees and you've got wonderful ambassadors like Luke Adam Hawker who is very inspired by oak trees and goes out drawing them.  Adam: Why do you, I mean I don't suppose there's an answer, but do you have a take on why we've landed on the oak as such a a central part of our mythology and identity?  Jules: Well, I I think I think all of our native trees will play a role in that in our folklore and our mythology and and our culture, I think the oak is is is a particularly impressive tree isn't it, especially when you're standing next to a tree like this that that is so majestic and and you know the words like majestic, kingly, queenly, grand, they they just sort of pop into your head. There is just something incredibly awe-inspiring about the oak tree. And then, as we've we've seen before it, it just has such a huge impact on our ecology as well. So I think I think it's just something it it does a lot of heavy lifting culturally and also naturally the oak tree.  Adam: And almost every pub is called the Royal Oak.  Jules: Yes, yes, I think there's at the last count there's well over 400 pubs called the Royal Oak.  Adam: And you know that personally by visiting them?   Jules: Well, I've yes, I've I've tried to count them all. I've still got some way to go *both laugh*  Adam: Yeah. OK, OK, alright. Well, it's it's a good project to be having.  Jules: So there's an interesting story behind the that name the Royal Oak. And the reason the pubs are called that relates back to a very special oak tree, the Boscobel Oak. Now we have to go back in history a few hundred years. And it takes us back to the Battle of Worcester and the son of Charles I was in in battle with the with, with, with the parliamentarians, and he took a drubbing at the Battle of Worcester, and he needed to escape. And he reached this place called Boscobel House, and he was going to hide out in, in that house and try and escape the the soldiers, the the enemy. But it was very insecure and one of his advisers suggested he, instead of hiding in the house, he hid in the oak tree. So they spent the whole night in the oak tree, which subsequently called called the Boscobel Oak, and this and and and they escaped capture and the king spent the whole night with this chap called William Careless as he as he was called   Adam: William Careless?  Jules: William Careless who turned out not to be careless at all because he actually saved the king. And apparently the king sort of curled up with his head on Careless' knee and and he, they they got away. They got away with it and because of that you know that then obviously led into a whole series of events which ultimately led to the restoration of the monarchy and said King became Charles II and and because of that there was an enormous celebration of oak trees. So they they they were raised in status even further. So we've got all the Royal Oak pubs which are effectively commemorating that occasion. But there's also a great day of celebration was declared. It was the 29 May. I think that was the King's birthday, and it was 29 May. And it became oak apple day. And that was when we would all when people across the land would would gather and and celebrate the restoration of the monarchy. And one of the things they used to do was they people would bring branches with oak apples, which is another of those amazing galls. And the more oak apples you had on your branches, the better the better you were, you know, the, the, the cooler you were at the party. And if you didn't bring oak branches with you, apparently people would be mean to you and they'd whip you with nettles.   Adam: Blimey, this story took a turn!  Jules: Yeah, these parties got these these parties got quite out of hand. I actually think we should bring these days back. Not, no nettles. But I think actually wouldn't it be great if we spent every 29 May celebrating our amazing oak trees and and and also the wider nature around us.  Adam: Yeah, we've missed it this year, but I'm putting a date in for us to meet at a Royal Oak somewhere between us on 29 May.  Jules: Yeah, let's do it. Let's party. Yeah. And maybe drink a glass of oak flavoured wine or whisky.  Adam: OK, never had that, but I'm I'm up for it. I'm up for it. Kate, this is also important because this is in the running for Tree of the Year.  Kate: Absolutely. So the Woodland Trust hosts the UK Tree of the Year competition, and this year we've focused on oak trees.   Adam: So so they're all oaks.  Kate: All of them are oak trees this year, so we've got 12 candidates from across the UK and the wonderful Bowthorpe Oak here is one of them. It's my local tree so I'm a little bit biased, but these trees all tell amazing stories. We've got one that's shaped like an elephant in the New Forest. We've got one that has survived being in the middle of pine plantation in the Highlands of Scotland and we've got one that's sadly under threat from a bypass in Shrewsbury. So we've got some amazing stories from these trees and the public can vote. So voting closes on the 21 October 2024 and you can go to the Woodland Trust website so it's woodlandtrust.org.uk/vote.  Adam: There were some cow noises just as you said that in the background! Just to prove that we're in a farm *all laugh*.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the visiting woods pages. Thank you. 

St. John Climacus once again gives us powerful images to help us understand the meaning of stillness and how it is to be protected. One such image is that of an eyelash that falls into the eye and creates irritation. The enemy of stillness is agitation; we are often driven to distraction by a concern for our physical and emotional well-being. Fear can create within us a kind of hypochondria. We become hypersensitive to our health and well-being. Unchecked, this fear can be become so excessive that it creates a massive neurosis that prevent us from trusting in the providence and promises of God. We no longer feel ourselves being drawn along by love or seeking to remain in that stillness in order that we might know intimacy with the beloved. Rather, we desperately push forward, driving ourselves to the point of exhaustion, seeking a worldly peace and security.  However, in this we deprive ourselves of a childlike sense of wonder at the life and love the God has made possible for us. Therefore, as Christ tells us, we may not experience the kingdom even though it dwells within us because we are focused upon controlling our life and shaping our own identity. Once the simplicity is lost, it can lead to a kind of quiet desperation. Our hearts long for love from others and from God, but in the complexity that we have created and the thick hedge of responsibilities with which we surround ourselves, we lose faith and hope that such freedom can ever be ours again. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:03:18 Bob Cihak, AZ: P. 228, #48   00:26:14 Anthony: Another issue is for one in involuntary solitude, having a desire for companionship goes out to fill the void   00:27:33 Anthony: This is a reason for excessive social media or tv or radio, and God's gifts are dissipated   00:30:57 Bob Cihak, AZ: The stutters are because you're reflecting as we go.   00:36:19 Anthony: Not to analyze the thoughts.  I've been surprised by horrid thoughts, and thereafter been so concerned about them, that concern brings them to mind.   00:47:15 Kate : It's almost as if we don't trust the grace of God.  We don't trust the Providence of God and His Presence within the soul.   00:55:09 Susanna Joy: So true...believing the promise of God's everlasting goodness is key. Elizabeth said to Mary: Blessed is she who believed that the promise made by God would be fulfilled. And it is true for all of us.   00:57:32 Lilly (Toronto, CA): Covid was a curse *and* a blessing, it brought Fr Abernethy to my life...I am so grateful

What possibly could hesychasm or the life of hesychasts - those who live in perpetual stillness and prayer -  mean for those who living in the world; for all of those surrounded by a constant stream of noise and distraction?The answer is everything! Though few are called to this manner of life, all are destined to experience the fullness of its joy and sweetness in Christ in the kingdom. We have been made sons and daughters of God and the very Spirit of Love dwells within our hearts.  What moves us to emulate the fathers in their discipline, to seek what they seek, must be the same desire. Our experience of Christ, our drawing close to him through prayer, the sacraments, and the scriptures must kindle within us an urgent longing for what He alone can provide.  Those who love the things of the world do not see the pursuit of them as being extreme. Why is it when it comes to seeking the One who offers us perfect Life and Love that we become self-conscious; that we begin to worry about what others may think of us or how they might treat us? Why is this true even though Christ tells us that we should expect to be hated all by all because of His name? The Hesychast becomes the image of one who adds fire to fire. Having tasted the sweetness of Divine Love, he is willing to sell all to possess it. Gradually he becomes prayer and his life - a sacrifice of praise. In this he becomes like unto the angels. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:29:15 Michael Hinckley: what you are talking about reminds me of St Thomas' straw comment.   00:32:04 Nick Bodmer: I believe it was Sartre   00:32:20 Michael Hinckley: "other people" came from that play no exxt?   00:32:25 Michael Hinckley: exit   00:32:32 Nick Bodmer: Yes, No Exit   00:32:47 Susan M: YES IT WAS SARTRE   00:32:56 Michael Hinckley: On the feast of St. Nicholas [in 1273, Aquinas] was celebrating Mass when he received a revelation that so affected him that he wrote and dictated no more, leaving his great work the Summa Theologiae unfinished. To Brother Reginald's (his secretary and friend) expostulations he replied, “The end of my labors has come. All that I have written appears to be as so much straw after the things that have been revealed to me.” When later asked by Reginald to return to writing, Aquinas said, “I can write no more. I have seen things that make my writings like straw.”   00:55:18 Rebecca Thérèse: It made a big difference to me when I was talking to a Catholic priest and I realised that he really believed what he was saying. That was one of the main things that informed my decision to become Catholic having previously been Anglican.   00:57:13 Nypaver Clan: Reacted to "It made a big differ..." with

This week's episode of The Fertility Podcast, Kate is joined by the Grammy nominated singer, songwriter, and producer, Nelly Joy @nellyjoymusic to talk about her experience of pregnancy loss. The Fertility Podcast is honored to be sharing Nelly's story, as this is the first time that she is openly talking about her experiences. Thank you Nelly. As a result of her experiences, Nelly has written a breathtakingly beautiful song and we have a sample for you to hear in this episode. Nelly's song, ‘Baby Showers' was written after she'd organised a Baby Shower for a friend. On the way home from the Baby Shower, Nelly felt overwhelmed with emotion for her loss, and found herself crying ‘baby showers'. Baby Showers was released on the 7th June and you'll find it ready to stream.Nelly starts by explaining that and after numerous trips to her doctor with heavy and painful periods, and being told it's normal to experience painful periods (note from Kate - It's not!), she was eventually diagnosed with endometriosis. She talks about how women are often dismissed and gaslighted and the importance of being persistent and pushing for a diagnosis when you know something is not quite right.After her diagnosis, Nelly then had surgery which changed her life for the better. Nelly talks about the relief that she had from the surgery and how it helped her with the pain she was experiencing. In 2017, Nelly unfortunately lost a third of her left ovary, and this started to make her think about how this might affect her fertility. In 2020 Nelly and her husband started to try to conceive. A year later, after trying naturally unsuccessfully, Nelly and her husband turned to IVF.Nelly tells Kate that after her first two round of IVF were unsuccessful, the couple decided to try naturally again, and in October of 2023, Nelly fell pregnant. However, after 7 weeks, her pregnancy sadly resulted in an ectopic pregnancy and the loss of one of her fallopian tubes. Nelly has not given up and is continuing to try to conceive naturally. Nelly strongly believes that the stigma surrounding fertility needs to change and people need to start talking more, and this is one of the reasons Nelly wrote ‘Baby Showers' as a way of breaking down taboos and to get people talking. We hope you enjoy listening to Nelly's beautiful track. I'm sure many of you will relate…….Thank you so much to Nelly for sharing this with us.We are delighted that this episode is sponsored by two friends of the podcast - One Day Tests One Day Tests is your one stop shop for ‘at home' fertility blood tests and more. The lovely people at One Day Tests are offering The Fertility Podcast listeners 10% discount with TFP10. SOCIALS:Follow @YourFertilityNurse on InstagramFollow @TheFertilityPodcast on InstagramFollow Nelly Joy (@nellyjoymusic) • Instagram photos and videos on Instagram

Five Minnesota chefs and two businesses are in the running for the prestigious James Beard Awards this year. Among them is Oro by Nixta, a semifinalist for best new restaurant in the United States. Gustavo and Kate Romero expanded their northeast Minneapolis tortilla operation into a restaurant this past summer. It's since been celebrated in Eater Twin Cities and the Star Tribune as restaurant of the year but it's also part of a mission to showcase heirloom Mexican corn. The co-owners and chefs joined MPR News host Cathy Wurzer to talk about celebrating heirloom corn and their recent nomination.What have you done to celebrate?Kate: Well, we got the news yesterday morning and the restaurant is only open Wednesday through Saturday. So we were open yesterday, we were celebrating with all the faces that dine with us.Not even not even a toast of champagne or anything like that?Gustavo: We did some a little bit. We have to talk to the team and thank them for their hard work and discuss what's next and in and get back into it.I understand you have a pretty small staff. Is that right?Kate: Yeah, absolutely. Our entire payroll, I think consists of about 20-22 employees. So everybody here is here all the time and we don't have multiple different servers every day. If you come in here for dinner you're likely seeing one of the four or five servers that we have taking your order. Then the kitchen staff is all here full time, they're the same people doing the same thing every day.What do you each bring to the restaurant?Gustavo: Oh, man, I mean, combine 35 years of experience. You know, I think we are definitely different, but we want the same thing. That makes it interesting to work. We complement each other pretty well, we work really well together.How hard is it to navigate a brand new restaurant?Kate: It's pretty hard. I think having worked in restaurants, obviously it is easier working for someone else because you don't have to worry about the day-to-day operations like paying of the bills, the managing of the staff — you get to just show up.Being an owner has got its challenges, but it also has its rewards. Like we're very grateful for the opportunity to be able to employ our staff, you know, pay them really fair wages. They're all generally happy to be here and work with us too. There's hard stuff but the rewards are pretty great to have the day-to-day work. And you get to see people eating your food, that's pretty cool.Gustavo: It is very rewarding. We have the luxury that we get to talk to people and we get to ask them how their meal was and other experiences and you know, I think that's very important to know what they feel. Your restaurant's named ‘Oro,' which I think means gold, is that right?Kate: Yes, in Spanish. The reason we call it that is because corn is gold in Mexican cuisine, it's such a big basis of the food that people all across Mexico and really all over the world also but in specifically in Mexico and then Latin American, Central American, South American countries eat. Every dish has some sort of corn, so the ingredient itself is gold.I think of corn as a side dish or an ingredient but you're trying to make corn be the center of your menu.Gustavo: For us it's been the base and the beginning of everything that we've done so we want to we want to showcase it. We wanted to educate people to the importance they have for us as a culture. The idea of changing the way people eat and the way the people look at corn is very important for us so we are trying to do it the best we can.Don't you have a relationship with Mexican heirloom corn? Gustavo: I think every Mexican does. We all kind of grow up around corn and eating fresh tortillas, I think that is very close to home for us. For the ones that are far away from home, having something so important be down the street is just like being home. Are you supporting Mexican corn famers?Gustavo: Yes, we worked with a couple companies. We make sure we work with companies that care about the producers. We dream one day of being able to do the same thing here. But the Midwest has a completely different idea of what corn is. People here are used to the sweetcorn and that's about it. So it's gonna take some time and it's gonna take some some learning and some troubleshooting but that's the dream, to be able to have some really good Minnesota corn and then we can be proud to make tortillas with.Are you using other ingredients such as wild rice? Kate: We do utilize some Minnesota wild rice actually, for one of our most delicious non-alcoholic beverages on our menu, we make a wild rice Horchata. And then sometimes here and there it will pop in to the menu, but our menu changes quite frequently. It's not on the menu all the time but that Horchata is not going anywhere, people love it. Do you have anything special coming up to celebrate the nomination?Kate: I haven't even gotten that far. I'm just trying to still wrap my head around what happened and get through a lot of emails and flood of reservations and things. Honestly, I just look forward to Sunday when we're done with this week, so we can hang out with our little boy at home because he is in day care currently for the day and then he spends evenings with my mom, his Polish grandma. So we're not seeing him a lot because they're so busy. So I look forward to that the most, celebrating with him.Use the audio player above to listen to the full conversation. Subscribe to the Minnesota Now podcast on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.   We attempt to make transcripts for Minnesota Now available the next business day after a broadcast. When ready they will appear here.

*Prior episodes reviewing Succession:Season 1: E98 (May 22, 2023)Season 2: E102 (June 26, 2023)Season 3: E109 (Sept 11 , 2023)0:00 -- Intro.2:12-- About the podcast sponsor: The American College of Governance Counsel.2:58 -- Start of interview.3:54 -- On the influence and leadership style of Logan Roy. The "ultimate corporate governance challenge."6:41 --  Comparing the (fictional) Roy family with the (real) Murdochs and Sultzbergers. "Why is Logan trying to sell Waystar? The answer is simple. He knows his kids can't cut it. So, his way of getting out of this whole dilemma is to sell the company, give the kids billions of dollars, you know, as their share for their stock, and then let them all go their own way."09:47 --  On dual-class share structures. "[In the media business] just because you have dual shares doesn't mean you will always be protected from the vagaries of the marketplace." (example: the Bancroft family with the WSJ).13:06 -- On the role of media and politics. Joe Nocera: "My line on succession is using succession to understand corporate America is like using the Simpsons to really understand small towns." 18:42 -- On corporate money in politics: "Forget Presidential elections. The real thing that happens in real life is that companies give lots of money to congressmen and senators who are on committees that they care about and who are willing to do their bidding. That's how it works. And that's why the little guy always gets screwed in these things, because they don't have the potency. They don't have the money. They don't have the access. And in terms of influence, it's not just media. It's all kinds of companies that are doing this for their own interest. And that's the way the world works. Is it nice? Is it good? No, not necessarily, but that's how it works."19:57 -- On fraud and stockholder litigation. The overstating of subscribers in India by GoJo.24:05 -- The role of the board of Waystar Royco in the takeover negotiation with GoJo. The example of Twitter acquisition by Elon Musk, and HP-Autonomy. Joe Nocera: "Companies overpay all the time because the CEO wants to build his empire, because they think there's something there that turns out not to be there, because they're in a competition with another company and they got to have this victory. Overpaying is very normal and then you have these multi-billion dollar write-downs blah blah blah."28:23 -- Comparing Lukas Matsson to Elon Musk. "The rise of the ungovernable CEO."30:34 -- On obstacles to women in the workplace. The cases of Shiv, Geri and Ebba. Kate: "It's an extreme version, but these are real issues that real women face all the time. I don't know that there's a corporate governance solution to it, other than culture, right? You know, it all comes back to culture and how you build culture." 36:35 -- On corporate culture: Joe: "In the modern age, the Rupert Murdochs and the Logan Roys are anomalies. I mean, you've got a situation now where David Solomon at GS is being widely criticized. Why? Because he's a harsh boss, he's a brutal boss, he makes demands, he's not an empathetic person. And nowadays companies want leaders that can nurture and lead by example and can get people to do things because they want to do them for the person or the company rather than they have to. And so, and then, you know, nowadays they can't even get the employees to come to work."39:12 -- On ESG and the politicization of corporate governance. Joe: "Why did the ESG come along in the first place?A lot of the reason is because the employee base at a company like Kellogg's, or Procter & Gamble, or Xerox, or IBM, they're mostly socially liberal. They're pro-choice. They're pro-environment. They're pro-BLM. And a lot of this movement began in the first place because companies wanted to make their employees happy. They wanted to give their employees a sense of a higher purpose than just, you know, banging out copier machines. And so ESG evolved. You go to a company like General Mills or Kellogg's and you walk down the aisle [...]And all on the walls, you're going to see, you know, come and help build a house for the homeless next Saturday. Or, you know, we're going to be the greenest company in the world in five years. Here's what we need to do. Or blah, blah, blah. People inside these companies are not complaining about it. They like it. [T]he conservative movement has made a big deal about this and they've gone after Larry Fink at BlackRock, but to me, 90% of it is bullshit. It's just, you know, ESG is a way to make your employees happy. That's all it is. And for the conservatives, it's a lovely way to bash corporations."43:54 -- On the last boardroom scene, voting for the GoJo takeover.46:36 -- Take-aways for corporate directors from the Succession show. Kate: "I think it's a tremendous cautionary tale for directors and officers and leaders of companies in terms of the core part of governance, which I believe is, how do you make decisions? How does a corporation make decisions?" "People, process, policies." "What's the structure for decision making? Who gets to make the decision?  Joe: "Of the many tasks a CEO has, one of the most important is to find his successor [...] a CEO should have somebody lined up." 52:30 -- Final thoughts on the show. Joe: "I do think that some founders subconsciously want their company to fail after they're gone. They want this idea that only I could have built this and nobody can succeed me and do it as well as I did. And that's what I think was going on in season two. And I think maybe that's what's going on throughout Logan's, the four seasons that we watched Logan." Kate: "Logan Roy did nothing to make his children the kind of serious people who could take over for him. He thought there was only one him and the company dies with him. And it turns out that's probably kind of true."Kate O'Leary is the Global Executive Litigation Counsel at General Electric.Joe Nocera is a distinguished business journalist and author.  You can follow Evan on social media at:Twitter: @evanepsteinLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/epsteinevan/ Substack: https://evanepstein.substack.com/__You can join as a Patron of the Boardroom Governance Podcast at:Patreon: patreon.com/BoardroomGovernancePod__Music/Soundtrack (found via Free Music Archive): Seeing The Future by Dexter Britain is licensed under a Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License

“As moms, we're big problem solvers,” says Kate O'Rourke, certified life coach and host of the Reclaim Your Life with Kate podcast, who joins Leslie on the show to discuss the increased rate of anxiety experienced by teens–particularly girls–in the wake of the pandemic. As a school psychologist, Kate is well versed in the issues anxious teens face as they return to school–including a major resistance to doing just that.    As a single mother of two, she also understands the tendency for mothers to feel guilty about their children's anxiety issues and their often ill-advised attempts to solve the problem. Recognizing that anxiety is a natural and necessary response, she explains the difference between a “normal” level of anxiety in response to, say, tests and grades, versus something more debilitating.    As the ones who know their children best, parents should trust their instincts to tell them if something is off and whether it's time to seek professional guidance for their kids. For their part, moms can practice modeling, validating the child's feelings (something parents often fail to do when they think they're being “supportive”), asking the child to gauge the severity of their perceived threat, and engaging in co-regulation. Teen girls, especially, are facing increasing pressure to be perfect, and parents should be honest about where those pressures are coming from.    Your teen may not necessarily respond right away and that's OK, too. The point is to take self-inventory without any of the shame or guilt moms too often place on themselves.    Quotes • “We all have anxiety. It's there for a purpose, right? It's for survival. If we weren't anxious about the noise that we heard in the bushes, if we didn't worry that it might be a tiger and act and run away, we're getting eaten by the tiger. So anxiety is a survival technique that is still necessary.” (8:26 | Kate)  • “In situations where if you think that you would be nervous or anxious about something, it would be typical that your teen would be anxious in that moment. But when it's really impacting them, if they're not going out with friends anymore like they used to, if  they love basketball, but they won't try out for the team, if it's just really impacting the things that they used to enjoy and they're, they're not able to get over those hurdles, then it might be a sign that it's time to reach out and get some help.” (10:53 | Kate) • “It's very easy to question as a mom, when your kid engages in what are just typical developmental behaviors, if there's something really wrong, I need to be concerned, this is a problem I have to solve.' We're big problem solvers.” (13:26 | Kate)  • “As a mom, what we often want to say is, ‘Oh, sweetie, you have straight A's, you're so smart, you're going to be fine.'  You're gonna find that can feel really invalidating to someone that is in that spiral. It can also send the message that you shouldn't feel anxious right now, this is something wrong with you.” (16:18 | Kate) • “I say this with so much love as an anxious mom that has an anxious child, we model that for them. And so the best way to help your kid is for you to go first. If you recognize this in yourself, if you even related to the anxious spiral that we're talking about, the best way to help them is for you to go first and learn about your own brain and your own system and why anxiety is there and how to handle it because then you can offer that to them.” (24:44 | Kate) Connect with Kate O'Rourke: https://calendly.com/kateorourkecoach/60min?month=2023-08   Connect With Leslie: Six Steps to Help Your Teen Cultivate Confidence: https://wondrous-leader-9073.ck.page/bc048dbe7b Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/the_coach_chronicles/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CoachChronicles/ Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

Join us as presenter, author and farmer Kate Humble guides us through magical ancient woodland near her remote Wales home in the Wye Valley. With infectious enthusiasm and occasional impressions, she tells us about the plants and animals along our route as well as the story of her accidental career, becoming host of nation's favourite Springwatch having never wanted to be a TV presenter! Kate also talks worldwide travels, access to nature and planting trees with the Woodland Trust on her smallholding. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people, for wildlife.  Adam: Well, in early spring I went on a woodland walk in Wales with presenter, author and farmer Kate Humble, who was taking me around what promised to be some amazing woodland with her dogs. But as is increasingly common in these podcasts we of course had to begin with me getting absolutely and entirely lost.   This is an absolute disaster. Although I am bad at directions, this is not my fault *laughs* So Kate sent me a pin, she said look this is going to be hard to find my place, she sent me a map pin. I followed the map pin. Look I'm here I don't know if you can hear this you probably can't hear this. This is the gate that's locked, which is across some woodland path. So I can't get there. And of course there is no phone signal, so I'm going to have to drive all the way back to some town to find a phone signal. And I'm already late.   OK. I have managed to find a village where there is a phone signal. I've managed to call Kate and Kate *laughs* Kate has clearly got the measure of me and told me to give up and she is now going to get in her car and find me in this village and I will follow her back. In the meantime, we have passed Google map pins back and forwards, which apparently tell her that I'm sitting outside her house. But I really am nowhere near her house, so I seem to have broken Google which well, that's a first. Anyway I've got a banana here, so if she's a long time, I have dinner and I'll just wait. This will never happen. This will actually never happen.   Well we've found Kate. We've found a whirly country drive lane. Feels a bit like rally driving. It's like, I mean, I don't understand why my map wouldn't find it, but this is certainly a bit of rally driving we're doing here getting to her house. My goodness. We found her house.   OK. Well, we're here. Which I never thought I I really thought it was really lovely. The idea was nice, and next time I'm in Wales, I'll give you a call so really, it's it's better than I thought better than I thought. Anyway, so you're leading me off with your two dogs.  Kate: I am. I am. I'm leading you off into one of the most beautiful I think I mean, obviously I'm a little bit biased but it is one of the most important areas of ancient woodland in Britain. This is the Wye Valley. We're the lower Wye valley, so we are the the the the bit really where the River Wye is in its sort of last bit of its journey. It's risen in mid Wales, about 136 miles from here. I know that cause I've walked the whole route.  Adam: Really, we're not doing that today, are we?  Kate: No we're not no I promise. I promise Adam. So yes and we are basically about 5 or 6 miles from where it flows into the River Severn and then out into the Bristol Channel and the woods around here are a lovely mix of broadleaf, so we're walking through broadleaf woodland now and this is literally this is what I walk out of my front door. Aren't I lucky?  Adam: You are lucky.  Kate: I'm so lucky. So we've got a lovely mix of broadleaf woodland now and we're just coming into that time of year. Which is the time of year that makes everybody's spirits lift, because we are coming into spring, and if we actually just stop just for a second. You can hear that's a blue tit calling *imitates sound* and I mean, this isn't the perfect day for birdsong, but the birdsong was really picking up. And that's the lovely thing about living alongside woodland. So even in the winter, even when you don't think there are any birds at all, what you hear in these words is *imitates sound* that's a very, very bad impression of a great spotted woodpecker.  Adam: OK, I'm glad you. I I was guessing it might be a woodpecker, but I didn't want to.  Kate: So they start to drum around about sort of late January, they'll be drumming. And and then as the and we also have tawny owls, lots of tawny owls in these woods. We've got an owl box and we used to have an owl that we called Percy who we have no idea whether it was a boy or girl.  Adam: I was gonna say it was, a reason it was called Percy?  Kate: Don't know, just it just it looked like a Percy.  Adam: Just fancied the name. Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah.  Kate: But we have lovely tawny owls here. So, you know, at dusk and and when when I take the dogs out sort of last thing at night round about 10 o'clock 11:00 o'clock at night we walk down this track and and you stand here and you hear this wonderful and everyone thinks you know, tawny owls go toowit toowoo. They're the classic toowit toowoo owls, but actually you've got 2 owls calling, so you've got the male going *imitates noise* and then you have the females going *imitates noise*. And they're calling each other, establishing territories or going ooh I like the sound of you, there's a bit of flirting going on. So these are, as I say really it's it's just the biggest treat to live with this on my doorstep.  Adam: Right, so fantastic. You you clearly I mean, you've launched into a sort of fantastic description and detailed knowledge, but you are not a country girl by birth are you?  Kate: No, I am a country girl by birth.   Adam: Oh you are? I though you were born in London?  Kate: I am. No. Well, I was you're right, I was I was  Adam: Sorry, do I know where you were born and you don't.  Kate: Well, being born and where you were brought up is different.   Adam: Yeah, OK. OK, fair enough.  Kate: So I was, you're absolutely right, I was born in London. I was born in well, I was born in Wimbledon in fact. This is my neighbour by the way.  Adam: Right. Right. Wow. I didn't, we're in the middle of nowhere I didn't know there'd be a neighbour.  Kate: I know, but I know. But there are other people mad enough to live in these woods, and he's particularly mad.  Adam: OK. Does he mind you saying that?   Kate: Not at all. Not at all. No. He's absolutely used to it. Hello. Come and say hello to the Woodland Trust podcast.   Adam: No. OK, I'm just checking. OK. Hi, I'm Adam. Hi. Nice to see you. Yeah, I hear you're her neighbour.  Kate: This is this is this is writer Mark Mccrum and his dog Jabba. Yes. So I'm just dragging Adam down to take a look at the ponds and talking about the ponds down there.  Mark: Oh lovely. Which ponds?  Kate: The ponds down there.  Mark: Oh those ones? Yeah, very good. I might see you on the reverse cause I'm gonna go all the way round.  Kate: Oh you're gonna go round. OK, fine. Lovely.  Mark: These are lovely woods cause you never see anybody here. *all laugh*  Adam: I'm sorry.  Kate: Apart from you   Adam: I was gonna say, and me, I've ruined it.  Kate: Yeah we're the only people who see each other aren't we.  Adam: So you were telling me you are you are born in Wimbledon, but you you grew up in the country then?   Kate: Yeah. So I was I was born in Wimbledon and yes. So after about, I think I was about six months old, my mother always says that she realised that London was clearly not the place for me and   Adam: From six months? Outward bound baby were you?  Kate: Yes! She said she said there basically wasn't enough space in London for me. So so yes, so I was brought up in Berkshire, right? And I was brought up next to a farm. So I was always a sort of vicariously farming kid. Even though my parents weren't farmers and and spent my childhood looking after various animals of various descriptions, and I think the wonderful thing about being the age I am, so everyone bemoans being old, but I think I just I I am so thankful that I was born in the sixties.  Adam: Why?  Kate: Because no one had invented health and safety, climbing trees, no one had climbing frames, you climbed trees. And I think the trees enjoyed it, and so did you. And if you hadn't fallen out of quite a lot of trees by the time you were 10 and had various, you know, scars or broken bits as proof of a proper childhood, it wasn't a proper childhood.   Adam: Right. OK.   Kate: So I had a lovely proper childhood of, you know, not being plonked in front of a screen of some description or another. We're going to cut off piste a little bit and head down here.  Adam: OK, I'm is this a precursor warning that I'm about to get bumps and scrapes and?  Kate: This is a precursor warning that you might yes, you might. It's quite a steep descent.  Adam: OK just as long as my, my face is my fortune though, as long as that's safeguarded throughout this, that'll be fine. OK. Well, that's good. Yeah. Lots of leaves around. Yeah.  Kate: Of course it will be a soft landing whatever you say. Lots of leaves. One of the nice things again about broadleaf woodland. And as you can see, I'm sure your leaf identification is brilliant, but we've got a lovely mix of oak here and beech, as well as the evergreen so the hollies and lovely, lovely mosses. But yes, what you're walking on is is a sort of glorious mulchy carpet, but we have a profusion of bluebells.  Adam: Already they've come up?  Kate: Well the bluebells, the the plants themselves have come up so the leaves are up and there are one or two I'm going to show you, is it, will it be your first bluebell of the year?  Adam: It, almost, almost we we can pretend it is for dramatic purposes. Let's let's go along.  Kate: OK, OK. They are, they're just, they're just starting to come here now and and you get that lovely moment. It'll be about probably about three weeks or a month's time, slightly depending on on what the weather does, where you get the, the unfurling of the beech trees. So that glorious kind of neon green which when the light goes through you get that sort of wonderful, almost disco light effect show.  Adam: And aren't they in Welsh, aren't they called cuckoos? The Welsh translation for bluebells is cuckoo clock. I think it's because it's like it's a harbinger of spring along with the cuckoo.  Kate: Oh, I didn't know that.  Adam: Oh my God, I found something you didn't know.  Kate: You know, you know, you'll know lots, I don't know, but  Adam: No, no, let's hope that's true that's that's I'll have to go check that. Do check that before you tell anybody.   Kate: Well, I'll just blame you.  Adam: But no, I do think in Welsh the translation for Bluebell is is cuckoo clock or something like that because it is this harbinger of spring and I think that's it's a really nice I I won't even try the Welsh but in Welsh it sounds very so I mean, I thought we were going to chat about your conversion to nature and everything, but actually that's a lot of nonsense. This is this has been a constant in your life?   Kate: Well, it's been, I mean, coming to Wales, so I did live in London, you know, after I left home.  Adam: Except, I mean, you didn't choose a a nature career, did you? I mean, you you're involved now we can talk about that. But first, what was your first career?  Kate: Well, I mean. Career always seems such a grand word and that you've planned it.  Adam: Yeah. OK, so your accidental career.  Kate: So my accidental career, well, I had this idea that that I that I wanted to work in television, although again I don't really know where that came from. We're going just down here. Part of me also wanted to be a a safari guide.  Adam: Good. I can see the appeal of that.  Kate: I went to I when I was 19 having never really been abroad at all, because again, our generation didn't really go abroad as a matter of course. So I went to Africa when I was 19 and.  Adam: Sorry we're not talking on a holiday?  Kate: No it was a well it was a it was probably a rebellion.   Adam: Right. You went as far away as your your parents as you could. I'm not going out for the evening I'm popping off to Africa?  Kate: Yes, yes. I'm popping off to Africa and I don't know when I'll be back. One of those.  Adam: Right. Yeah, good. Good exit line. So where, where, where in Africa were you and what were you doing there?  Kate: So I I started in South Africa. I ended up in Egypt.  Adam: Right, just bumming around doing sort of bar work or doing something more serious?  Kate: I did I did I was a waitress for a little bit, but I was very, very bad and was sacked. I I was a model for a little bit, also very bad, very bad at that too.   Adam: Why were you so bad at that?   Kate: Because because I really don't like having my photograph taken and I really like food.  Adam: Yes, OK well I would I would have guessed I could have advised you that wasn't the career for you.  Kate: So so the two things, yeah, didn't really weren't terribly compatible to that. But I then got a job as a cook and a driver on a safari, and I drove a truck aged 19, having never really been out of Berkshire, from Cape Town, through Botswana and into Zimbabwe. And and then I hitched back to Cape Town. So I had a a real adventure. But what I what it really did for me was, having had this very sort of unconsciously wild childhood, I don't mean you know lots of parties and taking drugs I mean, a natural wild childhood, I then went to a place where the natural world was was so extraordinary and so mindblowing, and on a scale, you know, everything was was was like technicolour. You know, the birds were amazing. The the you know the the the size of the animals, the proliferation of the wildlife, the size of the landscapes, the emptiness and I think it was that journey that turned my mind to really re-look and re-examine the natural world and think it's, you know, it's extraordinary, it's it's mind blowing in every way and so even though I then came back and thought I want to have this sort of career in telly what I really wanted to do in my career in telly was work for the natural history unit.  Adam: Right. And is that what you did?  Kate: No. Not initially anyway.  Adam: OK, but you have done, I mean you've done nature programmes, lots of nature programmes. What did you first start doing?  Kate: We're going down here. I have. So I first started sweeping streets in the East End.  Adam: In EastEnders?  Kate: No, in the East End, no. I was a runner so I basically got jobs wherever I could get jobs and I got a job on a commercial that happened to be shooting in the East End and they needed the streets swept and so that was one of my jobs. But had no plans to be on the telly that that really did happen by mistake.  Adam: I think you know my first job in telly. I don't know if you remember That's Life with Esther Rantzen. Do you remember they she always had rude, funny vegetables?   Kate: I do, yes  Adam: That was my job to find them, yeah so only only marginally above the street sweeping.   Kate: Oh my goodness!  Adam: So you got how did you get picked there? I mean, we gotta get back to the natural world. But you've had such such a fantastic life. So I mean, I think people will be fascinated to know you have not much of even a vague plan about what you're doing. You're fumbling about a bit.  Kate: None, yeah. Living in a squat. Eating crisps.  Adam: So yeah, right. So not many models will be will be living like that and eating crisps, I get that You're sweeping streets as your way into telly, all of a sudden you're on telly. How did that happen, was that more of a plan or did someone just turn around and go, hey, you, street sweeper, you'll do?  Kate: No, it wasn't. So I had I had graduated from street sweeper, so it took about probably four four or five years I have become by now a sort of senior researcher. And I got a job at the BBC. My first job at the BBC on a programme called Animal Hospital.  Adam: Right. Yes. And you were still a researcher there or presenter?  Kate: Yeah, as a researcher. And and I think the reason that I got the job was actually my childhood. Because I think it was the first series, in fact, I think the only series that they did of Animal Hospital in a rural practice. So we went to a practice that didn't just do small animals, pets type animals, but also bigger animals like farm animals and horses and I think the only reason I got the job was that I was the only person they interviewed who knew what to do with something bigger than a hamster.   Adam: Right ok great.  Kate: And I had my own wellies.  Adam: Oh good. Always important for a career in telly, your own wellies, see these are the secrets people wanna know. Good. So you've got your wellies?   Kate: Always really, really important. They are. So I got that job I got that researcher job. And at the end of it, the BBC do this appraisal thing. And they said we thought you were alright, you did OK, will you come back and do the next series and I said I'd absolutely love to. I'd really loved it, absolutely loved it. Can we just pause here a minute because this,  Adam: A sea of wild garlic?  Kate: No, these are bluebells.  Adam: These are bluebells? Oh, sorry. Look at the ignorance here.  Kate: These are bluebells. Well, those white flowers let me show you these because they're beautiful.  Adam: I thought like I I think that's what I thought was wild garlic shows you *unintelligible* OK, we've got a proper safari expert.  Kate: No. So look, look, look, look, look, look, look, look, look, first bluebell starting to unfurl except my dog's just walked all over it. Come on you're not supposed to walk on there.  Adam: So this is, all of this is bluebells?  Kate: So all of this will be bluebells and in about 3 weeks time you get this absolutely, it's so blue it's like the colour actually detaches itself from the flowers and floats above it in this sort of glorious mist, it's beautiful. But this these flowers here I love. And these are these are one of the flowers along with celandines which are the kind of waxy yellow flowers that people will see in woodlands and even in their gardens at this time of year, these are wood anemones. And they are lovely, very delicate white flowers with these slightly sort of hand-like leaves and the lovely thing about these, they're not looking at their best at the moment because it's been quite a wet day. But when the sun's out, they open to the sun like these brilliant white stars. And sometimes there are areas around here where you'll see carpets of wood anemones and they're one of the first I've seen these as early as January, although not this year because we had lots of frosts.  Adam: It's funny you, you, you, you use the word magical I'm just looking at this tree with covered in moss and everything, there is something magical about these sorts of places, a sort of sense of, sense of, a Tolkien type moment isnt there?.  Kate: Absolutely. Absolutely. I've I I don't think it is a coincidence that lots of fairytales are set in woodlands because there is something otherworldly about them. We're going to head keep heading down just so that you have a really good climb on the way up.  Adam: Yeah, I was gonna say I'm fine going down, I'm assuming you're sending a car to pick me up? It's well a little, a little Uber will just I'm sure,   Kate: Nice try, Adam! Lots of Ubers around here. Look, look, look.   Adam: Oh look now that is OK that's a proper bluebell.  Kate: That is a, a, a bluebell that's a proper bluebell.  Adam: Yeah, that is my first proper bluebell of the year.  Kate: And you can see all the others are just starting to come.  Adam: And that's and it is lovely because clearly so few people come here that's the problem often with bluebells is when people trample all over them. And we've got just one clean path down here and it's completely undisturbed for as far as the eye can see. So yes, we OK, we we did a little pit stop for bluebells. We're back on and the what was the programme, animal?  Kate: Animal Animal Hospital.  Adam: Animal Hospital. So they wanted you back as a researcher. I'm interested in the jump from behind the screen to on screen.  Kate: So so they basically said lovely we'll see you in four months and I said oh well, I've got a landlord and rent to pay, I can't not work for four months. I'm going to have to get another job and it may mean that I'm not available. And they said ohh well, maybe we can find you something else within the BBC as a stopgap. And I had also at that point, so this is the mid 90s now, started writing. I was writing travel. And I'd spent at the the a end of a a, the second Africa trip that I did between 94 and 95, I'd spent the last two months of that in Madagascar.  Adam: Right.  Kate: Madagascar was a place that I was obsessed with because of its wildlife because it has unique flora and fauna. I came back and got an article commissioned to write about it, and it was the first,  Adam: Your first commission?  Kate: Yes, my first commission and my first article, and it was in a broad a broadsheet newspaper, and I was very excited and very proud about that. And so when I was asked by the series producer of the BBC Holiday programme, whether I would consider coming to work for them because I was a travel writer,  Adam: Right OK, yeah, you're now a travel writer because of your one article.  Kate: I am I am now a I am now a travel writer on the strength of one of one article.  Adam: Whoa oh Kate, I'm so glad you were the first person to sort of go over *Kate laughs* That was before me I just want that on record.   Kate: Yeah.   Adam: OK so I haven't gone over yet.   Kate: You haven't got over yet.   Adam: OK. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah.  Kate: Yes. So I got a job on the BBC Holiday programme. Anyway the next day I got called into the big boss's office. And I assumed that my short lived career at the BBC Holiday programme was about to be ended because I wasn't quite sure why, but perhaps because I hadn't been taking the producers guidelines as seriously as I might and that also I had smoked on a fire escape, which probably wasn't a good idea. And instead I was asked to do a screen test and I assumed that this was the sort of common test that the Holiday programme did and I tried to say I really don't want to be a presenter thank you, I love doing, I love making the programmes, I love the research, I love talking to people, I love putting things together. I'm quite, I like logistics. I'm quite, you know, I like all that stuff I don't want to be a presenter. And they went well do a do a screen test. So at this point I just thought I've just got to get out of this office because I feel very embarrassed by the whole situation. So I will just nod smile say yes, do it, it'll be a disaster, and then everything can go back to normal. So that's what I did. Three weeks later, the boss came into the office,  Adam: Sorry, we have to stop. This is a story that's gonna last all day, cause I keep stopping because your dog is posing or it was posing beautifully by this river.  Kate: Well, so this river is an important, one of the sort of parallel streams that run into the River Wye for this is the Angidy, we are in the Angidy Valley, surrounded by amazing woodland on both sides, it's a very steep sided valley. This river is particularly good for dippers, which are those lovely chocolate brown and white birds, they look like little waiters.  Adam: Right *laughs*  Kate: And they and they, they're called dippers because that's exactly what they do. So we'll keep an eye out because we might see some, but they'll sit on a stone like that exposed stone within the waterfall there and they will jump into the water and literally completely submerge. They'll disappear completely and they're looking for things like caddisfly larva, which is what they feed on, and then they'll bob up and come back up and they're they're just these wonderful, perky, very smart little birds.  Adam: Brilliant, OK.  Kate: They're the only British songbird that is also a water bird.  Adam: Wow, OK, good. All right.   Kate: There you are, little bit of, little bit of,  Adam: No, I like these these these sorts of diversions we take, it's it's almost like doing a stand up routine, so we're gonna go gonna go back to the story now. So you thought everybody in the world gets a screen test. So I'm just doing this and then they'll leave me alone.  Kate: Yes, yes. And and then the boss came into the office about 3 weeks later. And she said, can you go to France tomorrow? And I said yes, of course, assuming that they needed somebody to carry the heavy stuff. Bhcause carrying heavy stuff is the other thing that I am good at. I can whistle very loudly and I can carry very heavy things and those are really the only two things that I can offer the world.  Adam: OK, I I you, you have set yourself up for a big whistle at the end, so we'll we'll wait for that then let's hold out.  Kate: It it will blow your ears well, that's all I'm saying. So she said, we want you to present a film on a barge in Normandy, could you please do something about my hair, she said. My own hair.  Adam: I see she didn't ask you to be a hairdresser? Also could you cut my hair?  Kate: Yes could you cut my hair *laughs*. No, could you do something about your hair, she said. I thought she's been talking to my mum, who constantly despairs of my lack of my lack of grooming.  Adam: Right, also right at this point of hair hair disasters, we have to pause because we've come across as you may hear an extraordinary small waterfall, it's a weir, really, isn't it?   Kate: It is really.  Adam: I'm gonna take another photo of this before we get back to the life and misadventures of Kate Humble. So I'm just gonna take a photo. You'll find that, no doubt on one of our Twitter feeds. Oh, I know beautiful, oh no the dogs disappeared, the dog doesn't like posing for me. But all right, so now, you're off to France. You need a haircut and,  Kate: So I'm off to France. I need I need I need to basically smarten myself up. Off I went to France and presented my first film.  Adam: Right. And that was, I mean, we could talk about this forever, but that was the beginning of that was the beginning of this, the story. OK, well, amazing.  Kate: Yes. My first job for the natural history unit came in 2000. And I was asked to do a programme, which was a sort of, was made in response to Blue Planet. So the very first series of the Blue Planet, which I think everybody watched with their mouths open because we had never seen the oceans in that way before, particularly the deep ocean. And there was a phrase used which I have used many, many times since, which was that more people have been to the moon than there have been to the deep ocean. And people were fascinated by these, they were they were creatures that looked like they might have been designed for Star Wars. They were so extraordinary.  Adam: These sort of angler fish which have which have this light don't they.  Kate: That sort of thing, and these these, you know, these astonishing, you know, plankton with flashing lights, there were Dumbo octopus with, you know, little octopus with these sort of literally did look like Dumbo the elephant, you know, deep water sharks that people had never seen before that were really slow moving and and, you know astonishingly well-adapted to live at depths and in in at water pressure that no one thought anything could exist in and come on dogs we're gonna keep, do you wanna have a,  Adam: And so yours was a response, in what way?   Kate: So we did a live,  Adam: The dogs keep looking at me like they want me to throw something for them is that what's going on?  Kate: They do, and I'm going to just try and find a, here let's try let's try this, here we are.  Adam: Look, they're very, oh you've thrown it into the river?   Kate: Go on, in you go.  Adam: Oh, look at that go!  Kate: Come on Teg, do you wanna go in as well? Here you are. This one's going to sink, go on. Ready? Go. Good girl. Where's it gone? Teggy, it's just there. That's it. Well done, well done, dogs.  Adam: Oh they like that.  Kate: Well, I can't go and get it, you have to bring it here, that's the deal with sticks *laughs* So we did a live programme from a boat in Monterey Bay. I made some films to play into that live show. So I went to the Cayman Islands, which is a rotten thing to ask anybody to do, can you imagine?  Adam: Terrible, terrible. You wanted to be back in the East End really.  Kate: I did really, sweeping streets and instead there I was, doing films about coral reefs and this is the one of, this is the wonderful thing about the natural history unit or just about making films with animals is the lengths that you have to go to to be able to capture the natural world in all its wonder. And so I was asked to go and film a shark called a six gill shark that lives very deep and only about 10 people in the world had ever seen. And I was sent to go and find this creature. You know, I can't I can't even now I can't really believe that I was asked to do that.   Adam: And did you find it?  Kate: Eventually. We had to do two, we did one trip we failed to find it,   Adam: How how long was that?  Kate: So that was, we did 6 dives. It was an amazing trip. We didn't get the shark on the first trip. We went back for another trip. We didn't get it. We didn't get it. We finally got it and it was incredible. Incredible moment. And that was the first job that I did for the natural history unit and there was then somebody who came up with the idea of doing British wildlife life live at kind of springtime, like kind of now.   Adam: And this was Springwatch was it?  Kate: This was the precursor to Springwatch.   Adam: Oh I didn't know there was one.  Kate: There were two!  Adam: What were they called?  Kate: So the first one was called Wild In Your Garden. So I'm just going to put the dogs on a lead here. Hold on, poppet. Just hold on my poppet. That's it. We've got to take Adam up the hill now. So yes, so the first one was called Wild In Your Garden and it was Bill Oddie and Simon King and me. And we did two shows a night, from gardens in Bristol, and it sort of worked as an idea.  Adam: Right. OK.  Kate: It worked well enough or it wasn't so much of a disaster that there wasn't a thought of let's try it slightly differently, maybe on a farm instead of in the garden, and we went to this wonderful organic farm in Devon and basically made camp for three weeks. And made a series called Britain Goes Wild. And Britain went a tiny bit wild. And so the following year we thought, well, we'll do it again, but maybe we'll just call it something different.  Adam: Right.  Kate: And someone came up with the idea of calling it spring watch and everyone said, and it always went out at the same time as it does now, sort of end of May and people go, it's not really spring though is it? And we're like, well spring enough, still spring things happening and Springwatch seemed to capture everybody's imaginations and and I presented that for 10 years.  Adam: And you presented that for how many, how many years?  Kate: Ten.  Adam: Blimey! That's a long,  Kate: Yeah, I know. I've just grown old on telly and then Autumnwatch came into being and then Winterwatch and I did Seawatch. So I did a series about British Britain's seas and and marine life. Yeah. So I did eventually get my wish of working for the natural history unit.  Adam: Oh, that's very good. The fairy godmother in the form of the BBC descended and granted your wish. And now from all of those adventures abroad and on TV and everything you then said, I'm gonna move to this really quite, there's another car coming, quite quite remote parts of Wales. Why that?  Kate: We're going to head up here. Hold on, dogs. There we are.  Adam: Oh there's some steps. Hallelujah.  Kate: OK, only for this little bit.  Adam: Look, stop stop taking away the hope.  Kate: *laughs* So so I we moved,  Adam: Yes so you you picked up sticks and then moved to Wales. Perhaps it's not such a big move because the natural world has seemed to be always the centre of things for you. So but why Wales in particular?  Kate: Well, that is a curious question. I had no connection with Wales as far as I was aware. I honestly honestly can't tell you why I felt this extraordinary pull to live here. But it really was it was like a magnetic pull. There is actually a a Welsh word and I'm not sure I'm really allowed to use it in my context, but I can't think of a better word to use for the feeling that I had. And it's hiraeth and is a word that it's sort of more than home sickness. It's like a deep longing for the place that you belong. A yearning, a pit of the stomach emptiness for your home.  Adam: You felt this was a spiritual home, did you?   Kate: I don't know I really don't know, Adam. I, as I say I just had this extraordinary pull to live here. And yeah, I would look at the, there are these old fashioned things called maps, and I would look at the A to Z of Great Britain. And you know, there I was in the South East and if you look at a thing called a map,  Adam: Yes, sorry is this a point about me getting lost on the way to you.   Kate: No no not even remotely. No, it's the fact that no one uses them anymore, and yet, they're the greatest treasures we have. So if you look at a map, the South East of England is just this chaos of colour and roads and towns and names. And it's just, you know, there's not a square millimetre that hasn't got a name in it or something in. The further west you go, the browner the map becomes, and when you go over the border into Wales, it's mainly brown and green and it's got beautiful lyrical names like Abergavenny and and it's got mountains and mountains, when you've been brought up in Berkshire mountains are the height of exoticism. To live in a in a country that had mountains all of its own just struck me as being remarkable. I still, 15 years on, find it remarkable that I can I can get up at breakfast, not go terribly far, and climb a bona fide mountain. I love that. And that's what I love about Wales.  Adam: And and you've done more than, I mean, people might feel that and move to a beautiful part of the country and live there and more or less carry on with their ordinary life. But you've not done that. I mean, you're not just you don't just go for walks, the natural world is something you've created a a new career out of as well. Is that fair?  Kate: I wouldn't call it a career.  Adam: OK but you're very much well, but you make money from it and it fills your days.   Kate: Well, no, no, I don't think I don't know I don't I don't think that's I don't think that's true at all. I think you know I my working life is peculiar. I've I still am involved making television programmes, some of which involve the natural world. I still write, some of that's about the natural world, but not all of it. The natural world for me is nothing to do with making a living. Making a living. But it is about living. And it was one of the things that I was acutely aware of when I lived in London was I felt cut off from the seasons. This year you know, I know I can tell you that I didn't hear a skylark until the middle of March last year it was Valentine's Day. I can tell you that because that's what I'm experiencing. And I love feeling that instead of the natural world being something I watch on the television or I read about in a book that I am able to be part of it. And that's one of the big problems I think that we face now with trying to engage people with the importance of things like biodiversity, species loss, habitat loss. None of those things sound very sexy, and none of those things appear to matter to us because we as a species so weirdly and inexplicably view ourselves as a species separate from the natural world and the natural world has become something that we just watch for our entertainment. But we are just another mammal in this amazingly complex, beautiful, brilliant web that is the biodiversity web, where everything fits in and everything works together, and one thing feeds another thing and you know, until we feel properly part of that, immersed in it and and wrapped up in it, why are we ever going to worry about the fact that it is now a biodiversity net that's full of holes, and those holes mean that the net becomes less and less effective and the less effective that net becomes, the more it affects us, but we see ourselves as somehow immune from that process and we're not. And what I love about living here, what I love about walking in this area every day, twice a day, is the fact that I feel that I can, I'm I'm more in tune with our natural world and that is sadly, it shouldn't feel a it shouldn't be a privilege, but it is.  Adam: And do you feel, I mean, you're you feel passionate about it. Do you feel evangelical about it?  Kate: Yes.   Adam: So what do you, do you have a prescription to help to bring others on side?  Kate: I wish it didn't, I wish you didn't have to ask me that question. I wish it didn't have to be an on side.  Adam: Do you do you feel that's an unfair question? Or do you think there's?  Kate: No, I don't. I think it's a very fair question because lots of people don't feel or don't perhaps don't experience it experience the advantages of the natural world, or they haven't been they haven't been given the opportunities to properly understand the impact that it can have on us and all those impacts are positive. I mean, there's loads of science. And you know, it was talked about endlessly during the pandemic about how green spaces are good for our mental health, blue spaces are good for our mental health, being outdoors, being in nature, listening to birdsong, sing plants grow, all those things are good for us. But we've got to a place where we've been so divorced from it, where we look for our pleasures in shopping malls and online and and we forget that actually all we need is right here. And, you know, it's a hard sell for some to to somebody who's never experienced this, who hasn't had the privileges I've undoubtedly had, you know who have not grown up in the countryside, who find it fearful or boring or inexplicable, don't understand where they fit in.  Adam: And I think one of the perhaps growing debates, I think or interesting ones anyway for me is is the balance between trying to either scare people or make them aware of the environmental challenges and potential for disaster. And then so to sort of go engage with the subject it's really it's really newsworthy, it's it's it's imperative people do things and actually turning people off going well we're we're all going to literally burn, enjoy the party whilst it lasts. So what what do you feel about that?  Kate: Yeah, yeah. I mean, all all, all you have to do, all you have to do is watch Don't Look Up. Have you seen that film?   Adam: Yes.  Kate: And and and that, you know, absolutely embodies what you have just said.  Adam: So what do you think about that? Because I think there's a balance between going, offering hope, the power or audacity of hope is a phrase one hears as opposed to the sort of potential to frighten people into action. Actually the opposite, don't frighten them into action. Offer them hope of change. And I wonder where you feel that, if we've got that balance right, or whether,  Kate: No, we haven't got it right and I, but I don't know what the balance is because I think there's a real, I think that a lot of programmes that are made about natural history now have become so glossy and so beautiful and and so almost otherworldly that they don't actually reflect the reality of the natural world. And a lot of them again show the natural world without the context of people. And of course, that's sort of how we want to see it, we don't want people muddying those pictures. We don't want, as you say, the kind of the awful stories of the litter and the, you know, the the, the, the negative impact that human have humans have had on the natural environment. So we kind of don't want to see it, but equally if we don't see it, we don't engage with it and we kind of can watch one of those documentaries and even if David Attenborough is telling you that, you know, this is a habitat that's in peril or this is the last animal of its type that you will ever see, you don't really take that in because you're looking at these really stunning pictures and you think it's kind of OK. But I don't know what the answer is because I also know that as you say, if all you peddle is hopelessness and helplessness, no one's going to engage, they're going to stick their heads in the sand and just hope that it all goes away and pass it on to the next generation. So somehow we as communicators need to find a way that really does cut through. That really does make people feel, genuinely feel part of the natural world, that it isn't just another thing. I had the great joy of interviewing Tim Peake not that long ago, and I was interviewing him for a book that I'm writing about the concept of home. And I thought he would have, of anybody, a really unique idea of home having not just left home but left the planet. And he told me that he did a spacewalk, he was out in space for over four hours, and he said the blackness is like a blackness you cannot imagine. But he said, you know, you see Mars and Jupiter and Venus and you see Earth. And he said, when you're there, amongst the planets in that way you see that Earth is, as far as anyone's experience, and any telescope has been able to tell us, unique. You look at it and he said there it is, this colour, this blue and green planet, whereas everything else is, you know silver and and ghostly, ours is a living planet and he said he had this, he had this sort of feeling when he was there looking at Earth and imagining somebody, some other being coming up and tapping him on the shoulder and saying hey, hi,  who are you? I'm Tim. And he'd say oh hello so where are you from then? And Tim said I felt this enormous swell of pride to be able to point to our planet and say I'm from that planet there. I'm from Earth. I'm an earthling and I thought if all of us had that experience, could understand what it was like, how special our planet is in a universe that is infinite as far as we know and that we have, we have no idea what's out there, but what we do know at the moment is that our planet is unique and I think we would treasure it that much more and have moments like this of just standing amongst the trees and midges coming out, the drizzle, the mud and go, this is our home, this is where we live. It's really special. Aren't we lucky?  Adam: You're taking me uphill again aren't you.  Kate: I am taking uphill, but you've done the worst bit and you and and actually you marched. I was impressed!  Adam: Oh OK good. You know I'll fall apart after, I'm just doing it so I don't embarrass myself too badly.  Kate: *laughs* I'm afraid it is going to get very, very muddy, so you're going to have wet socks, mud up to your knees, you know, that's why I spend six months of the year in wellies.  Adam: Right OK. But you know, that is the privilege of being an earthling, isn't it?   Kate: It is it is.  Adam: So you've been you've got involved with the Woodland Trust.  Kate: I've been involved with the Woodland Trust for quite a long time, but it really started when we took on a farm near here.  Adam: What's this an arable farm?  Kate: No, it was a small council farm. It belonged to the council and people are not really aware that there are such a thing.   Adam: I've never heard this one.  Kate: No, but there used to be about 16,000 council farms throughout Britain and they were set up as part of the 1906 Smallholdings and Allotments Act and they were there, low rent, small areas, usually 30, 40 acres that sort of size and they would be available to rent for farmers who for whatever reason, didn't have a farm of their own. And over the years, as farming practices have changed as economic models have driven farmers to need to to produce things on a bigger scale, small farms have been basically relegated to either hobby farms or they've been broken up and sold to land that's been added to bigger farms. So we've lost an enormous number of these small farms and with them an enormous opportunity for people with farming skills to stay on the land and produce as food. And that's what was going to happen to this farm. And for whatever reason, I just felt this was not the thing to do and to cut a very, very, very long story short, we ended up taking over the farm and setting up a rural skills centre o prove that a small farm, ours is just over 100 acres, could still be viable. It supports itself and that's really important. But one of the things that we wanted to do, we were really interested to do when we took it over was to add more trees. It's it's got some wonderful ancient trees. There's an oak tree on the farm that we call Old Man Oak, as did the tenants before us. They introduced us to him and we think he's about 600 years old. And but we wanted to plant more trees. But we had this conundrum of how do we increase the tree cover on the farm without taking away the pasture because obviously we needed the pasture for the livestock and it was the Woodland Trust that helped us with that conundrum. So they looked, together we walked round the farm and we identified either areas where there were small copses or where there was a bit of a hedge. So what we did with the Woodland Trust's advice and input was to put in trees as shelter breaks, so not actually impinging on the pasture, just or very much, but adding a kind of a thicker bit of hedge if you like, or making a copse a little bit bigger and in that way we've planted over 1,000 trees on the farm in the last decade that we've had it. And then at home we have a four acre small holding and and so at the beginning of last year I started thinking maybe it's an age thing, you start thinking about legacy and when you when you take over a piece of land, what you start to understand actually very quickly is that you will never own it, that you are simply the caretaker of it for the time that you are around. And I think we've got cleverer now. Our knowledge has become greater. We understand that just planting trees isn't the answer. We need to think about we need to think of landscape as a mosaic and so what we wanted to do was to create a little mosaic. Plant trees, create water or make a space for water, make sure that there was going to be areas that had glade that was good for insects, that was good for wild flowers. And so I talked to the Woodland Trust and said, are you going to be into this idea, because it's not just planting trees and they went, that's exactly what we're into. That's exactly what we want to do. We want to create habitat. It's not about blanketing a landscape with trees. It's about planting the right trees in the right places at the right density to create something that you know, in a generation's time will have real lasting value, and that's what's been so wonderful about working with, you know, an organisation like that that sees big picture, sees longevity as as an advantage rather than as a disadvantage. And and that's what's been so lovely is that, you know, I can go to them and say so I've got this plan. I mean, I'm not even going to be alive to see it kind of come to fruition but do you care? And they went, we don't care, do you care? No. Let's do it. And that's wonderful.  Adam: Wonderful. OK sorry, this is a bit, this is the bit where I'm going ohh well, I'm swimming effectively swimming now.  Kate: Sorry. This is a very wet bit.  Adam: Hold on a second. OK. Right. That's a very Norman Wisdom walk I seem to have. OK. Yeah. OK, so ohh sorry, hold on.  Kate: It gets, that's the that's the wettest bit now, now we're now we're more or less home and dry.  Adam: Oh well you know what we we might be home, but we are not dry. That would be inaccurate at this point. So well, that's a neat story to bring us back to home with isn't it. So you know things are looking good. It's all hopeful. A a long journey and a long one ahead, you know, not just for you, but for that natural world you're creating.  Kate: Well, I hope that you know the the I I think going back to to what you said about how we can, we can help us all feel that we are actually, you know part and parcel of the natural world rather than observers of it or visitors of it and things like planting trees or being aware of the seasonal joys of the bluebells coming through, or, you know the leaf fall in the autumn and the colour, all those things if if i you know if we can build that awareness that brings with it huge joy and reward, then maybe we'll start to cut through again and people will start to feel more like the natural world is their world and not just another part of the planet that they live on.  Adam: Well having arrived back at Kate's home, let me just say there are lots more woodland walk podcasts for you to enjoy wherever you get your podcasts from. And indeed, if you want to find an actual wood near you well, you can go to the Woodland Trust website www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. Until next time, happy wandering.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you. 

Meet Kate Bruns:She is a lifelong writer, who spent 20 years working in the higher education communications world. She was living in Des Moines, Iowa when her husband took a new job and the family moved to Neenah Wisconsin in January 2020. After a short time as a very reluctant pandemic homeschool teacher dabbling in freelance marketing communications work, she jumped at the opportunity to embrace her first love, magazines. So she became a writer-editor at insight publications, a regional business magazine serving Northeast Wisconsin. Today, her primary responsibility is editing the BI monthly magazine insight on manufacturing. Lori: In this digital age, is there still room for long-form print magazines and what are you hearing from your readers about that?Kate: So inside our manufacturing has been around for 15 years. We serve 18 counties of Northeast Wisconsin covering manufacturing. And yes, over those 15 years, the internet has exploded. It's gotten noisier digital communications are definitely the thing. But over that amount of time, the appeal of a tangible print product has actually sort of come back in some ways. Our audience is pretty broad-ranging in terms of age. But obviously, some of the folks who've been around a little bit longer are still pretty big fans of holding something in their hands and reading it kind of really diving into a topic, which is what we do at Insight. So, you know, yes, there is still room for print publications to advertisers like it. But we are evolving, just like every other business into doing more digital and insight. But really our flagship, our heart, and soul is still in that print world with the glossy photography in the color and the tangible magazine that people can sit down and have their coffee and read on a Sunday morning or whatever.Lori: Was it intimidating jumping into this new job setting of manufacturing?Kate: It definitely was intimidating. I mean, I had my father was an engineer. And until I was probably 12 years old, I thought he drove a train. I love it. So I was like, Oh, my God, he makes tractors, I don't really know what else is involved in that. So you know, growing up, it was not something even though he was in the space, I didn't really understand all the nuances of manufacturing. And then when I went to journalism school, I was very focused on sports media and the human interest type of journalism. So yeah, when I'm offered this job to be editor of IOM, I'm thinking oh, my gosh, I'm not a thought leader on manufacturing, I'm going to ask stupid questions. But you know, like I said, it really doesn't matter. If you have that expertise yourself. I'm looking for the experts. I'm not I don't have to be the expert, I have to make what they say sounds good. And, and helpful in connecting people. So it's really been really pretty awesome to learn so much about manufacturing in the process of having this job. And I'm just so inspired and sort of awed by this concept of making, right? You know, this area of Wisconsin has one of the largest concentrations in the country, for manufacturing, and you don't see that everywhere. And you kind of take for granted that people are actually making things here. And it's really, really cool.Kris: What have you grown to love or appreciate about manufacturing since you started there?Kate: There are so many stories to tell. And the community is actually really collaborative. I think in my brain, I thought, you know, these are competitive, proprietary enterprises that don't want to talk about their problems or share their secrets. And in some respects, that's definitely true. But the competition is global. For most of these manufacturers in Northeast Wisconsin, the collaboration ends up, you know, being pretty localized. And we're just so much stronger, versus a region in Northeast...

Y'all, it's time to stop playing small, in your profession, in life, in your daily routine! Tune into an insightful conversation about the habits you can start today to embody the confidence needed to excel in every area of your life.  If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co . And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:The best ideas from a jungle on the beach Unlearn being agreeable, playing small, and being obedient to fully step into your powerThe key difference between therapy and life coaching How to create an intentional morning: how can you set up your day to meet your desired emotion by the end of the day? The unfiltered era: letting go of being shiny, pretty, and perfect to everyoneRock, glitter, and gemstones as the newest way to schedule!Episode References/Links:Shattered Glass Coaching WebsiteShattered Glass Coaching on IGShattered Glass Coaching on FBGuest Bio:After years of passionate work as a leader, teacher, coach, and mentor, I realized it was time to turn my passion into practical knowledge for the real world-- skills that women can use in their everyday lives to help them gain confidence, develop leadership skills, and achieve their wildest dreams. Becoming a Certified Life Coach was my great gift of 2020. Now, I coach women to become courageous leaders in their workplaces and their personal lives. I've been in these women's shoes. I want to be the coach, mentor, and cheerleader that we all need when we're first starting out.Being a Life Coach is all about helping my clients overcome fear to create the life they really want. It's about helping working women take bold action and shatter glass ceilings across the world.  If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.Be It Till You See It Podcast SurveyResourcesWatch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable PilatesSocial MediaInstagramFacebookLinkedInEpisode Transcript:Lesley Logan  Oh, I should ask. It's Hutson, right? You say it like Hutson?Kate Hutson  Hutson, H u t s o n. Yeah.Lesley Logan  Hey, Be It babe, how are you? Okay, full disclosure, I have tried to do this intro like 17 times, I don't know, I don't know why it's take... normally I'm a one take wonder. And it's a big joke. If I can't, if I don't do in one take, it does take 17 takes. And I share that with you because it's not, it's not about being perfect though 17 the other 16 takes we're actually not imperfect or bad. A couple times the water turned on, another time I dropped something, I sneeze on someone. And three of them, I didn't even hit record. So it's okay to be imperfect. In fact, it's better. It's way more fun. And some of the things I hear from you the most is how authentic I am and that's what you like about it. And I share that not to be as like a braggy braggy person, but to give you permission, because I know myself. And I, I remember before I could handle being imperfect, I would let other people make mistakes, but I wouldn't let me make a mistake. It wasn't okay for me to make a mistake, but it's okay for everyone else to make a mistake. And so, if that's you, if you are giving full permission for imperfection to other people, but you are holding yourself to some sort of standard that is unachievable. Hi, there is another way. And you can be it till you see it. You can literally laugh about the mistake you made just like laugh about it just like (Lesley laughs) laugh about it, you can give yourself permission to try again, it's called try. Don't know why Yoda said there's only do there's no try. There's so many tries, and I don't I know my Star Wars, people are gonna get mad at me. But I please explain to me how he means something different because you can try. And you start again, you can start again, you can start again, you can start again, unless you're a brain surgeon working on someone's brain, you can start again. And maybe even they have like some sort of way of figuring that out. So, I love you. Thank you for being you. Thank you for your amazing feedback. Thank you for giving me permission to be authentic. And I hope that this gives you permission to be authentic. And I can't think of a better guest for this intro to go for this weird trial and error intro to go with. But then our guests hey, Kate Hudson, because this woman is a life coach and executive career coach for women. She is helping women be themselves through their bold versions of themselves to help them see and have the life and career they want to have with joy. And I really I'm excited for you to hear her words because not only are there so many gems, like get your notebook out, okay. But also some great takes on some things that you probably have been doing in your life and wondering if why you do them and if they're working. I'm talking like some really awesome stuff towards things that like we all do. And we've all been told to do and we kind of like us it's working. And she's also super authentic. She also is figuring herself out. She's also been it till she sees it. I can't wait for you to hear what she's doing because oh my gosh, the stuff that came from that. Anyway, she's my new friend. (Lesley laughs) I hope to hang out with her I gotta figure out where she's in California. So when I'm in there and California can meet her in real life. But if she resonates with you, do me a humongous favor and hers to. Share this with a friend, texted to a friend, screenshot this, tag us both. It's not only does it help other people get inspired and hear her words and get this podcast out but actually, it helps you remember and solidify what you just learned for this podcast. When you tell someone, "Oh my gosh, I learned X Y and Z from this podcast." You actually just ingrain it to yourself. If you want to learn something better teach it to somebody. That's how it goes. So let's get to Kate because ... you got to hear these words, you got to hear these words. And here she is.Yeah. So Hutson, okay, perfect. All right, Be It babe. I am really excited because I found this guest. And I was like, "This girl is a being in it till she sees it," like I am sure she did. And in fact, she has so many Be It moments, so a ways that she acted as if before, like to get to where she is right now. And I can't wait to have her share her stories, but also how she did it. Because I know so many of you are like, "Yes, I can do it, but maybe not." And then you kind of fall back at the wayside. So Kate Hutson is here. I'm so excited. Can you tell everyone who you are and what you're up to these days?Kate Hutson  Yeah, thanks so much for having me, Lesley. I'm Kate Hutson. I'm a Executive Life Coach and Owner of Shattered Glass Coaching. So in my coaching business, I work with professional women. And it's kind of where life coaching meets career coaching. So about (Lesley: Cool) half the women I work with are corporate, the other half are business owners. And we're working on showing up with confidence, taking control of your career, and really like stepping into that most powerful version of you, so that your life and your job can be joyful, fulfilling, energetic, and you can really make it what you want it to be.Lesley Logan  Okay, that's amazing. I have so many questions there. But before we go into the things that I'm really eager about, I would love ... Was that something you like went to school for? Like, how did you just like, were you like, always, you're gonna be a coach. How does, do you know what I mean? Like there's this like point where you're like learning to be a coach, and then your a coach. I know as a Pilates teache, I was like, "When am I a Pilates teacher?" So what was the journey, because you don't start off with like a handful of executive women just like pounding on your door going, "Hey, help me balance all these things."Kate Hutson  Absolutely. So I've always been in like a leadership, teacher coach kind of position even since I was in middle school. And I was doing like assistant coaching for soccer. So I've always had this part of me that loves teaching, and helping other people and being that encourager, supporter coach. I was actually a teacher for two years straight out of college, I did teach for America, right out of college in rural Louisiana. So that education teacher piece has always been there. And then I joined to the corporate world in my 20s. And it took me so I was there for seven years. And I enjoyed my position. But I was seeing myself and so many of the women that I worked with, go through the same struggles and the same challenges. And I love being in that leadership position where I could help mentor and guide other women and kind of figure it out together. Then I started speaking at conferences across the country about some of the leadership and training that I was doing with the women that I worked with. And when I started speaking about it and teaching other people and educating and coaching, I was like, "This is where my heart is. This is where my passion is, I have to get out of the company that I'm at." And I've got to start doing this full time, this coaching, speaking, educating piece. And I didn't know what that looks like. I considered like going into HR for a little while, which looking back that that wasn't it.Lesley Logan  The moment you said that my face is like,"ew." No no no, No offense, HR people listening, but like, it doesn't like it doesn't work for you. It's not what you just described.Kate Hutson  I know, I know, and so I was like, I don't know what I want to do. But I know I want to do more of the mentorship, the coaching, the teaching. And I was actually I went to El Salvador on this, like soul seeking journey.Lesley Logan  I love how, I love either Costa Rica, El Salvador, it's like (Kate: Right) somewhere International, we all have to go to our eat, pray, love moment.Kate Hutson  Yes. Somewhere with like a jungle on a beach where you can figure things out. And I'm sitting on a beach with this girl that I met on a surfboard. And I'm telling her like, "I don't know what to do next in my career. I've got to get out of corporate. I want to help women in the corporate world to advance their skills step into their power. How do I do this?" And she's like, "You need to become a coach, like a life coach or a career coach, you need to become a coach." I'm like, "Okay, I'll think on it." (Lesley: Yeah) So I get home from El Salvador, it stuck with me. And I actually started researching just female coaches, but I thought looked cool on LinkedIn. And I reached out. And I'm like, "Can I borrow 15 minutes of your time and just like, ask you questions about what you do, how you got into it, what your day looks like." (Lesley: And they said, yes?) Yeah. (Lesley: That is so crazy. That's amazing.) Right. I know. And I started to kind of just like, build that network of other coaches and pick their brains and realize, like, "Yeah, this is a good fit for me. I can do what they're doing, and I can do it well, and I would love it like this can be a real career." And so from there, I was like, "I'm doing this." I quit my full time job. I did get certified as a coach through the Health Coach Institute. It was like a six month online training. And immediately after completing the training, I launched my business online and the rest is history.Lesley Logan  That is amazing. Okay, so What what did you do from graduation to first client to make yourself realize that you were what you wanted to be? Because I think a lot of people do a training, I see this in the the world that I'm in, they do a training, but they it's almost like until they're year five, they're so like, well, "I'm, I'm a new, I'm new. I'm a teacher." Like there's just like shyness about it like this. Like maybe they're, they're not validating themselves yet. So what what was that process for you from going from graduation to client?Kate Hutson  Yeah, and I think that I knew I wanted to work with professional women. So, I already have that as a baseline. But professional woman, like that's kind of broad. And so starting to work with people who were my friends, people who were in my network, people who had worked under me previously, where I was their leader at a previous job, working with them kind of helps me dialed in like, okay, here are the specifics of what I think are most important. And I know mindset is such like a broad term, and it's kind of a buzzword right now. But I think it's so important, and realizing that the specific mindset of like a corporate woman, and how she develops this mindset of confidence and power, and then utilizes that mindset in her everyday career. That's where I was like, "Okay, this is interesting." If you can develop that powerful, bold, confident mindset. That's where you become truly unstoppable. And it translates into other areas of your life. So I became obsessed with this idea of just like, confidence, being bold, being badass and applying that to personal and professional life.Lesley Logan  That's cool. I love this. So all right, this is like where you be, you're the coach, now you've got your coaching all these women. What is it that you see, that is kind of holding women back from stepping into their full power? Because you mentioned that word and like you step into it. So like, what, what, what, is there, is there a common thread? Or is it like, it just depends on the person, but I feel like so many women kind of hold themselves back in everything that they do, like, whether it's being it till they see it or like actually doing the thing that they that they're, they they're in the job, they always wanted and they kind of just feel like we play small.Kate Hutson  There's a few common things that I see. And number one, you mentioned playing small. I think that as girls, like we're raised to play small, we're taught to play small, we're programmed to play small, to be agreeable. Like in school, we're rewarded for being obedient for keeping our mouths shut. And as an adult woman in the corporate environment, or as a business owner, like that doesn't serve you anymore. Being like agreeable and obedient, and playing small no longer serves you. So you have to unlearn those behaviors, which is easier for some people than others, depending on your environment, the people around you, the way that maybe the company you're with is pushing you or helping you develop and grow. But coaching and having like a mentor, and that accountability, whether it's formal, formal or informal, can help women unlearn those behaviors that perhaps you grew up with, that are no longer serving you. And it really is like teaching and training yourself in practicing how to be a risk taker, how to be bold, how to be confident, because that that mindset of I no longer need to stay in my lane. I can switch lanes, turn my blinker on anytime I want. Exit here, come back on. That is really powerful for creating change, and you're in your career and your life.Lesley Logan  Yeah, oh, I love that that analogy of like, you can just turn your blinker on, you can just change lanes, you can just exit the freeway, you can take the scenic route, you can come back on. Like, I'm a visual person so I just like pictured all of that (Lesley laughs) that's so you're so good at what you do. So, you know, one of, as you said, unlearn. Does that, I mean, as a life coach, I think that's very different than therapy. So is that like more practical stuff that you have people do? Or is it like, they gotta go to therapy and work on that part? How do you, how do you work on that unlearning part.Kate Hutson  That's where it gets a little bit more personal and specific, depending on the person. And I think that with coaching, one thing that's so great, it's about being aware of like where you are now, and where you want to go in the future. So therapy is so wonderful for talking through things that have happened in your past and how it's still affecting you, and how you can work through that it might be trauma, it might just be grief, or things that have impacted you. But coaching is more about looking ahead. And like okay, here's where I am now, and I have that awareness. And now what can I do with it? How can I change my habits, my actions, my words, my behaviors, to get to this future point that I want to be at?Lesley Logan  Yeah, that's thank you for explaining that because to, I understand the difference between the therapy and the life coaching. Sometimes like Brad who listen to this and somebody says, like, "What is what is this life coaching thing? What is it?" Right. And like that is the most that's the best explanation I've ever heard of like the difference between the two because I think it can get really muddy and people get a little confused. So if you're listening to this and you're wanting to work on the future, that you need a life coach and if you need to work on your stuff, find a therapist. So, okay, you mentioned habits, and mindset and things like that. What are with these with these women that you specifically coach? Like what are some of the habits that you are having them focus on? Or what are what are you seeing that they should be thinking about as far as habits go?Kate Hutson  Yeah, so morning routines are huge right now in the personal development world, and you like hear about this from every professional development or personal development book you read. And I am so obsessed with helping my clients dial in an intentional morning. And that can be five minutes or 25 minutes or an hour. But first things first, like if you have something that you need to do in your day, any day, there needs to be some time, some kind of intention behind it. So waking up and starting your day with intention, whether that's moving your body, journaling, meditation, personal reflection, time, whatever it is developing a morning intention that works for you. And that's different from person to person. But starting that off and making it a habit is one way that you can move through your day with a lot more intentionality. Rather than just like putting out fires and being reactive, and letting your day run you, you can start to run your day instead. So in terms of habits, that's where I like to start.Lesley Logan  Yeah, okay. I like to call it intentional morning. And the big everyone who's listening knows this. I'm a big morning routine person. I have a very like, I love mine and is now turning to this like three hour (Lesley laughs)Kate Hutson  Your skincare, right? You have your skincare.Lesley Logan  Oh, yeah, I have, I do that. I have, I mean, well, the morning routine, you know, starts the night before, really. So starts with a nighttime routine. But I do, I have I had this morning walk that like somehow just keeps getting longer. And then like depending on the day, there's you know, other parts to it. But then there's, there's the time that I also put on the air... or the air purifier, there's a whole thing, but I don't think I've ever used an intentional morning. And the reason I do that is when I don't have my intentional morning. It really does set me up in this reactive state. And specifically when we're talking this is in the past when you're listening to everyone. I was on my walk but I was totally breaking all of my rules of my morning routine. I was texting people, I was checking my work email. And of course, at eight o'clock, I see something that's wrong in the business. And I had a complete reaction mode. And I was like, "We have to start this morning over." (Lesley laughs) We have to start over because I really did not set myself up for how I like my days to go.Kate Hutson  Exactly. I totally hear you. I noticed a few weeks ago I was getting the Sunday scaries really bad. Which is like pretty unlike me. Usually I'm in a good state over the weekend. But I was like noticing that I was feeling a little bit more anxious than usual on Sundays. And I realized it was because on Sundays I was abandoning what I would call, it's like my typical morning routine. Like I'm a big journaler, that's that's like how I (Lesley: Yeah) set my intention for the day. I wasn't journaling on Sundays and like sleeping in, coffee in bed, doing something different, just like letting the lazy Sunday get get to me. (Lesley: Yeah) And I'm like, if I would just journal and set that morning intention, then I probably could avoid some of this anxious feeling that I'm having and feel like I'm more set up for like a more joyful day. (Lesley: Yeah) And so I actually incorporated the journaling back into my Sunday. And I'm like, "Okay, that was it." All I needed to do was like be intentional about it and not abandon the things that keep me centered and grounded.Lesley Logan  Yeah. And I know, from many of the listeners who have reached out, they're like, "But what do I journal?" And I, I'm personally a morning pages kind of person, because I don't I'm a perfectionist, overachiever and recovery. And it's like, I if you don't know the story, my therapist is like, "Do you have a journal?" And I said, "I do." And she's said this is a couple of years ago. And she's like,"Okay." She's like, "Well, I want you to journal every morning." And it's like, "Okay, no problem." And then the week next week go by and I'm like, "So what am I supposed to journal?" Like, I know. I was like what like, "Do I, do I gratitudes do I ...?" And she's like, "Oh my gosh, just brain dump. That's all I want you to do." And it's kind of crazy how amazing that is. But but I know some people have like set they have questions that they ask themselves like what is for the person who doesn't like my morning pages. What else do, what else weather journaling prompts can you be doing?Kate Hutson  Yeah, and my journal is all over the place. Like every day, it's something different. But as our square one for somebody who's just getting into journaling, you can simply write like, what do you want your day to look like and feel like? What emotions do you want to feel that day? And then what do you need to do throughout the day to create those emotions. So if you want to feel joyful, if you want to feel energetic, if you want to feel confident, write about how you want to feel and what you can do that day to set yourself up to feel like that. (Lesley: I'm borrowing this.) In that way ... Yeah, go for it. In that way, you're like stating your intention of the day and being proactive. They're not just about like what's happening and what you're accomplishing, but how you want to feel. And if you can do that in advance, then again, you're not just being reactive and putting out fires, you're setting yourself up for success. I'm also big into gratitudes, as well. But sometimes, and I actually had one of my coaches who told me this sometimes on the other hand, if I'm like waking up, and I'm in a really negative headspace, for some reason, I'm tired, I'm upset, I'm frustrated about something, one thing I'll do is get all the negative emotions out on paper. And it's a bit of a brain dump, but it's like a like fire on the page brain dump. And then I'll actually just rip it out of my journal and like, throw it away, I've flushed it down the toilet before. And that (Lesley laughs) is so liberating to just like, get those negative thoughts down on paper and then flush them. I'm like, "Goodbye. You're not staying with me today." And I use that as a tool sometimes. So you can use journaling, however you need to, whatever you wake up at, like whatever headspace you wake up in, your journal is there as a tool for you. And you can use it accordingly.Lesley Logan  Oh, I love that permission. Thank you so much for that. And, and I think that's I think that's a really good idea. I know some people somebody told me that they burn their morning pages. And I was like, "Wow." I was doing something the other day, I was trying to burn my sage. And Brad has watched me and he's like, he's like, "Oh, my God, you are gonna burn the house down." I was like, "No, I think I'm okay." He's like, "No, you did not play with fire as a child, you have no idea what you're doing." (Lesley laughs) And of course, I look around the house and it's just like smoke everywhere. So so I need to be supervised on the on the flames. But I like the idea of like, ripping it out and getting rid of it. So it's not you're not carrying it with you. I think that's really great. It also just gave like me 17 new things to try out my on my intentional morning. So, I would love to know, because you mentioned your coach, your life coach, I think a lot of people would probably put you up on some sort of pedestal that like, life is so good for you. It's super, super easy. You've got it all figured out. Because I know we're all imperfect people and we're all in process. What are you currently like working on and being it till you see it in this moment, like what's something that you're focusing on in your career and in your life.Kate Hutson  Like you, I'm also a recovering like perfectionist, people pleaser, getting over all of that. And right now I'm in what I'm calling my nofilter era. (Kate laughs) And I used to be like this person that wanted to come across as like shiny and pretty and perfect to everybody. And I'm working with my coach to let go of that. And I can be quite want when I want to be. And usually with my friends and family, and I'm working on just like letting that blunt side come across in an authentic way. That's, that's kind and is is you know, in alignment with my mission and what I want to do, but in a way that's genuine, and is like who I am and not trying to please people and saying 'no' to people or things on my schedule in my life, in my relationships that like aren't in alignment with where I want to go. And it's hard. It's so hard, especially when you've been saying I've been a 'yes' girl forever. And now I'm in my unfiltered era, (Lesley: I love this so much.) saying no. (Lesley: I know.) Yeah.Lesley Logan  That's ... Okay. So and maybe, and maybe you're still working on this. Because I love 'no,' I tell people and I'm like, "You think ..." because you can always change your mind. You can always go, "You know what, actually my schedule reopen. You know, is it still available?" If it's not that it wasn't for you because I've been saying forever. And I really thought I heard it from someone else. But I looked it up. And as far as I can tell, I said at first. But if, if I'm wrong, people let me know. But it's like whatever is for you will not pass you. And so when you say no, and then you're like, "Oh, maybe I should have said yes" If it is for you, it won't pass you. You know, like it's gonna come back around. And it's really, it's really insane. There's one opportunity, I had to pick from two things, one that I really loved the other one I loved, and it paid. And I was like, "Oh, I wonder the thing I really love or the thing that I love and it pays?" And I was like, "I kind of actually need to get paid for what I do. So I'm gonna choose that one." And I was like, "I can't believe I'm gonna, like, miss it." And it was 2020. So I got to do both things online. (Kate: Oh my gosh.) How crazy? Because the way it worked out like I had to do it for my house. So I was able to go, "Hey, you know what, I actually can do both things. I'm only teaching at this thing on these times. I can teach at your thing on these times." And I have to do both. And so it's like, you know, be careful ... (Kate: It was meant for you.) And it was totally meant for me and I'm so sorry for the pandemic. No, I'm kidding. I did not cause it but um but I use that as a thing. So I love that you're saying no, I love I think a lot of women are well I think there's a lot of people that are people pleasers, but a lot of women are because we want to be seen as being nice and being a team player and like we don't want to rock the boat. We don't want to anyone to think that we're you know mean or anything like that. What are you doing to like not people please? Like what are you put... is there something you tell yourself? Is there something that you do like to give a pep talk to yourself, what is it because I know I got a lot of people pleasers listening.Kate Hutson  Okay, so number one is I've learned to realize that when I'm saying no to something, I'm actually saying yes to something else. So if I think about like, okay, a year ago, I was like itching to get out there, you know, things, I live in California, things were opening back up, I wanted to be social, I want to just like, hang out with my friends all the time. And then I realized I was exhausted. And I, like, hadn't read a book in a month, I was drained. And I'm like, "I need to start saying no to social activities." Right. And it became a lot easier for me to start saying no, when I realized what it was that I was saying yes to. A good night's sleep, a night in bed with a cup of tea and a novel. Quiet time with myself, like in the bathtub. I wasn't getting those things, because I was spending too much time with friends. And when I started to see that I was saying yes to those things. When I said no, it made it a lot easier to say no. So I say that, because for anyone listening, if you're like, I need to get better at saying no, and drawing those boundaries. If you can think about what are you saying yes to when you're saying no to something, it makes it a lot easier to put your foot down and say no, and draw that boundary.Lesley Logan  Brilliant. So brilliant. Such a great thing for anyone, whether you think you're a people pleaser or not like just any and that... And you know, you may have to like, I know, for myself, I had to put in my calendar, some of those things that I wanted to be doing. So that when I went to when I was asked like, "Hey, can you go to dinner?" I could see it says read a book, walk the dogs, you know, like have those things in there until it becomes so ingrained in you, you don't have to be reminded of the yes things you know, that might for those of you who need a little bit extra help. That's what really helped me because I was like, oh, I'm going to be, I'm going to have to, when am I going to read that book? And when am I going to walk the dog, who's going to walk these dogs? Because they're not going sleep if they're not walked. Then I'm not ...Kate Hutson  And not not confusing your free time with your availability.Lesley Logan  Okay, well, then that's another good one. (Lesley and Kate laughs) That is such, yes, yes, yes, yes. Oh, I really love that. That's true. I have so I, I'm, I have a whole way that I do my schedule. So I have like rocks, gemstones and glitter. Because glitter is the stuff you can do it anytime, right? Like glitter, like a glitter like it gets on everything. So if you're like, "What's glitter?" Like if you can do it on the toilet, or you can do it in line at Starbucks. It's glitter, glitter. You know, like, I know, you could probably sign for a mortgage while you're out shopping the way everything's digital. But the truth is, is like anytime you check your email, social media, that's all glitter, paying your bills, you can do that from like automation, the rock, so these like appointments, that's when I go to like when you go to bed when you wake up, it's like when you like those things that are really important to you. And there's like two kinds of rocks. And then there's also the ones that like for work. So like when you'd actually do the thing that you do for like, those are rocks, or they're harder to move, they're kind of have a set time, they're pretty big, they take up space. And that's where they are. And then gemstones is the time that you work on the things that actually you want to have in the future. So these are the things that move your business forward or move your life forward, or things that help you grow into the thing that you want to do. And so I have and my team can see it, they have it has little like the actual emoji of diamonds on all these, like time blocks that are that would be during the day, like when I could be working, but I'm not available. That is my gemstone time. And so when they're like, "Oh, when can I book these things?" I'm like, "You can book in the office hours," but you can't book it. And just because it looks like it's available doesn't mean it's free.Kate Hutson  That is genius. And it also shows me that you're really clear on for you what are the priorities and values and things that matter most your WMI what's most important for moving you forward? Because that's another tip for saying no and pushing back against people pleasing is to get really clear on what is most important to you. What are your priorities? What are your values? What are the big rocks or gemstones that that are going to move you forward? And not what everyone else would think is wonderful if you are going to do but in your heart of hearts, like what is important to you. And then pushing back against everything that's not that and being able to say no to things that aren't part of your priorities and values and most important things in your life. And when you say no to other things. It's almost this like magnetic no. Where you say no, and it's a magnet for the things that are meant to be yours. And I love that because it's such a good reflection of what matters to you, and when you can make your actions in alignment with your values that's where the magic starts happening.Lesley Logan  I love it, a magnet no. That's great. We that's amazing. I we need it that needs to be like an actual magnet, or something like that has to be something like physical for that. Kate, you need to have merch. All right. We're going to take a brief pause and then we'll find out where we can find you, follow you, learn from you, coach with you and all that.Okay, Kate, where now that everyone is like, "I need to be a magnet for the yes stuff." And you know, have these magnetic, magnetic propelling noes. What, where can they find you? Where can they coach with you? What do you got?Kate Hutson  Yeah, my coaching business is called Shattered Glass Coaching. I'm all about the female empowerment. My website is shatteredglasscoaching.com. And that's where you can read about my 90 Day one on one coaching program. I have offered group programs in the past and probably will in the future, but currently just one on one coaching and you can book a free call there. And then you can find me on Instagram at @shattered.glass.coaching. I release content daily, so you can find me there.Lesley Logan  Oh, I love. Also, there's a necklace. That's a shattered glass. We'll talk about it offline. I'll put it in the show notes, everyone. Don't worry. But anyways, we have to get to your BE IT action items that's most important right now. So bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted action steps people can take to be it till they see it, what do you have?Kate Hutson  Once a month, for the rest of the year, try something new that you've never tried before. Can be something physical, like trying a kickboxing class or a Pilates class, if you've never tried it. It can be a new creative hobby, like trying out photography, can be going to a social or networking event that you've never tried before. But go to at least one new thing every month for the rest of the year. So as we're, as we're recording this, there's six months left. (Lesley: Yeah) So six opportunities to do that. And when you do this, notice how it builds upon your competent mindset. And you might try something new and you might fail. Or you might try something new and you might succeed. And when you do that time after time, it starts to build upon your confidence and translate into every other area of your life.Lesley Logan  Oh, I'm into this. I'm so into this. I like a good challenge. And I also, Brad and I did The Artists Way, we had to do a new thing every week by yourself. (Kate: Every week. Oh.) Yeah, it's a little intense. It didn't have to be nothing new but it had to be something by yourself. It's not your normal thing. So like if you normally you know go see like walk around your neighborhood, like go to a garden and walk around the garden you know that kind of a thing. And it was for those of you who are taking on this action, it's okay if it's really hard in the beginning and it's okay (Kate: Yeah) if you talk yourself out of. I remember driving to a bookstore I'm going, "Do I really want to go in?" I'm like, "Oh my gosh, it's a bookstore like what is gonna happen to me this bookstore." You know so so but I remember going it'd be so much easier if I could just go to the thing that I always do. But it you're right it's so bold and to try something else and then also you get used to failing or used to succeeding or used to doing new things and being uncomfortable. I love this so much. Kate, you're amazing. Thank you for being here. Everyone, how are you going to use these tips in your life? Kate and I want to know make sure you tag us both on Instagram when you screenshot this episode. Send it to a girlfriend who needs to hear this. Right. Send it to someone who needs to be empowered to say no because that means they're saying yes to something. And until next time, Be It Till You See It.That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review. And follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day!  'Be It Till You See It' is a production of 'As The Crows Fly Media'. Brad Crowell   It's written, produced, filmed and recorded by your host Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell. Our Associate Producer is Amanda Frattarelli.  Lesley Logan  Kevin Perez at Disenyo handles all of our audio editing.  Brad Crowell  Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.  Lesley Logan  Special thanks to our designer Jaira Mandal for creating all of our visuals (which you can't see because this is a podcast) and our digital producer, Jay Pedroso for editing all video each week so you can.  Brad Crowell  And to Angelina Herico for transcribing each of our episodes so you can find them on our website. And, finally to Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.Transcribed by https://otter.aiSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

This week, we're exploring why it behooves businesses and business leaders to look at their users, consumers, customers, etc., as humans first. Slightly shifting perspective to consider the humanity behind purchasing decisions can lead to greater loyalty, more frequent use, and genuinely happier users, all of which add up to more business success and better outcomes for the world. Together with my guests, we discuss how human-centric decisions apply to various industries and how you can build better relationships that lead to success for all of humanity. Guests this week include Charlie Cole, Neil Redding, Dr. Rumman Chowdhury, Ana Milicevic, Cathy Hackl, Marcus Whitney, and David Ryan Polgar. The Tech Humanist Show is a multi-media-format program exploring how data and technology shape the human experience. Hosted by Kate O'Neill. Produced and edited by Chloe Skye, with research by Ashley Robinson and Erin Daugherty at Interrobang and input from Elizabeth Marshall. To watch full interviews with past and future guests, or for updates on what Kate O'Neill is doing next, subscribe to The Tech Humanist Show hosted by Kate O'Neill channel on YouTube, or head to KOInsights.com. Full Transcript Kate O'Neill: When you buy something, you're a customer. But — to paraphrase a line from the movie Notting Hill — you're also just a person, standing in front of a business, asking it to treat you like a human being. Over the last two decades plus working in technology, I've often held job titles that were centered on the experience of the user, the consumer, or the customer. In fact, the term ‘customer experience' has been in use since at least the 1960s, and has become so common that a recent survey of nearly 2,000 business professionals showed that customer experience was the top priority over the next five years. And while generally speaking this emphasis is a good thing, my own focus over the past decade or so has shifted. I've realized that the more macro consideration of human experience was a subtle but vital piece missing from the discussion at large. Because when we talk about experience design and strategy, no matter what word we use to qualify it—customer, user, patient, guest, student, or otherwise—we are always talking about humans, and the roles humans are in relative to that experience. In order to refocus on human experience instead of customer, you have to change the way you think about your buyers. You owe it to yourself to think not just about how people can have a better experience purchasing from your company, but also what it means to be fully human within the journey that brings them to that moment, and the uniquely human factors that drive us to make decisions leading to purchase or loyalty. A recent piece by Deloitte shared in the Wall Street Journal echoes this idea and offers five ways to be more human-centric in business: 1) be obsessed by all things human, 2) proactively identify & understand human needs before they are expressed, 3) execute with humanity, 4) be authentic, and 5) change the world. That's what today's episode is about: using empathy and strategic business-savvy to understand what it means to be human, and how that intersects with the worlds of technology and business. Neil Redding: “When you look at everything that has to do with buying and selling of things, it's so closely tied with what we care about, what we value most, value enough as humans to spend our hard-earned money on. And so, the realm of retail reflects something really deeply human, and profoundly human.” Kate: That was Neil Redding, brand strategist and self-described “Near Futurist” focused on the retail space. He's right—buying and selling things has become deeply entwined with humanity. But when we purchase something, it's not because we think of ourselves as “customers” or “end users.” We buy because we have a need or desire to fulfill, and sometimes that need is purely emotional. A ‘customer' buys your product—a human buys your product for a reason. 84% of consumers say that being treated like a person instead of a number is an important element to winning their business. It does seem like business professionals are catching on, as 79% say it's impossible to provide great service without full context of the client and their needs. But understanding something isn't the same as putting it into practice—only 34% of people say they feel like companies actually treat them as individuals. One major difference is the question of framing. Customer experience frames the motivator as, ‘how effectively the business operates the events related to a purchase decision.' It drives companies to focus on improving their own metrics, like bringing down call center wait times. These may yield worthwhile outcomes, but they're inherently skewed to the business perspective and aligned to the purchase transaction. Focusing instead on human experience shifts the perspective to the person outside the business, and what they want or need. It allows consideration of the emotional state they may be bringing to the interaction, which leaves greater room for empathy and context. A human experience mindset suggests that each individual's unique circumstances are more important than aggregate business metrics, because the reason why that person is interacting with your company probably can't be captured by measuring, say, how long they might have to wait on the phone. You could bring that wait time to zero and it still may not have any impact on whether the person feels heard, respected, or satisfied with the outcome — or whether they want to engage with you again. But as fuzzy as it is to talk about human experience, we know that measurement is fundamental to business success, so we have to find a way to define useful metrics somehow. For each business, that number is likely a bit different. So how do you know whether your customers feel like they're being treated as humans instead of just numbers? Charlie Cole, CEO of the flower delivery website ftd.com, believes one answer is obsessing over customer satisfaction metrics. Charlie Cole: “The best way to win this industry is just kick ass with the customer. We obsess over NPS scores, uh, as kind of leading indicators of LTV scores.” Kate: If you're not familiar with the acronyms, allow me to decipher: NPS stands for Net Promoter Score, which measures how likely the customer is to recommend the business, and LTV in this context means ‘lifetime value,' or the amount a customer may spend at your business over the course of their lifetime. Charlie Cole: “But remember, it's not the receiver's lifetime, it's the sender's lifetime. I mean, think about it. My stepmom is—just had a birthday April 9th, and I sent her a plant. If I went on a website and picked out a Roselia, and she received an Azelia, she's gonna be like, ‘thank you so much, that was so thoughtful of you,' and I'm gonna be pissed, right? And so like, we have to make sure we optimize that sender NPS score. It was shocking to us when we looked into the NPS, when we first got to FTD, our NPS, Kate, was in like the teens! My CTO looked at it and he goes, ‘how is this possible? We send gifts, who doesn't like receiving gifts?' And so we were looking at this stuff and we realized like, this is how you win. And I think when people look at the world of online delivery, there's very few companies that are extremely customer-centric… and in our world it matters. It's births, it's deaths, it's birthdays, it's Mother's Days… it's the most emotional moments of your life that you're relying on us for, so I think that gravitas just goes up to the next level.” Kate: Net Promoter Score offers directional insight about the customer experience, but it still isn't quite measurement of the broader human experience. The typical NPS question is phrased, “How likely is it that you would recommend [company X] to a friend or colleague?”, which forces customers to predict future actions and place themselves into hypothetical or idealistic scenarios. It is also measured on a 1-10 scale, which is pretty arbitrary and subjective — one person's 9 would not be another person's 9. A clearer way to ask this and gain more useful human-centric data would be with simple yes/no questions, asking people about actual past behaviors. For instance, “in the past 6 weeks, have you recommended [company X] to a friend or colleague?” Other alternative measures include PES, or Product Engagement Score, which measures growth, adoption, and stickiness of a given product or service, and doesn't require directly asking customers questions about their past or future habits. Instead, data comes in in real-time and allows for a clear measurement of success relative to a product's usage. While these metrics are useful in various ways, one thing missing from them is emotion. As humans, we are animals deeply driven by our emotions: research from MIT Sloan finds that before humans decide to take an action—any action, including buying something—the decision must first go through a filtering process that incorporates both reason and feelings. Reason leads to conclusions, but emotion leads to action. And if a customer feels frustrated by the customer service they're experiencing—perhaps they feel like they are being treated like a number, and not a person—they'll file a complaint, share on social media, and tell their friends and family to avoid the business. These actions can be quite time-consuming, but people will give up their time to right a wrong they feel they've experienced. All this is to say that if you want to retain human loyalty or attract new people to your business, you have to create a positive emotional response in your customers, which means understanding more about who they are than simply what product they might want. Many businesses have discovered that one of the best ways to create an emotional connection with people is through branding. A great brand image can forge a permanent bond with someone who feels strongly that the company shares their values and practices what they preach. Once someone has connected a brand to their own identity, it becomes much more difficult to convince them to switch to another company—even if that company provides the same product at lower cost—because switching companies feels like losing a part of them. Dr. Rumman Chowdhury, Director of the Machine Learning Ethics, Transparency, and Accountability team at Twitter, explored the concept of branding with me when she came on my show last year. Rumman Chowdhury: “Human flourishing is not at odds with good business. Some of what you build, especially if you're a B2C company, it's about brand. It's about how people feel when they interact with your technology or your product. You are trying to spark an emotion. Why do you buy Coke vs Pepsi? Why do you go to McDonald's vs Burger King? Some of this is an emotional decision. It's also this notion of value. People can get overly narrowly focused on value as revenue generation—value comes from many, many different things. People often choose less ‘efficient' outcomes or less economically sound outcomes because of how it makes them feel. A frivolous example but an extreme example of it would be luxury brands. Apple spends so much money on design. Opening every Apple product is designed to feel like you're opening a present. That was intentional. They fully understand the experience of an individual, in interacting with technology like a phone or a computer, is also an emotional experience.” Kate: If you're able to understand what people connect to about your brand, you can invest into magnifying that image. If your customer loves that you invest into clean energies, it becomes less important how much time they spend on the phone waiting for a service rep. Operational metrics can't show you this emotional resonance, so instead you have to think about what makes you stand out, and why people are attracted to you. Sometimes, however, human emotion has nothing to do with the product or brand in question, and more to do with the circumstances surrounding it. There's perhaps no better example of this than flowers, which can be given for myriad reasons, and usually at the extreme ends of the emotional spectrum. I'll let Charlie Cole explain. Charlie Cole: “For us, it's buyer journey by occasion. So, you are sending flowers for the birth of a newborn. You are sending flowers for the tragic death of a teenager. You are sending flowers for the death of your 96 year old great grandfather. You are sending flowers for your wife's birthday. I would argue that even though the end of all those buyer journeys is ‘flowers,' they are fundamentally different. And you have to understand the idiosyncrasies within those buyer journeys from an emotional component. You have to start with the emotions in mind. You're buying running shoes. The buying journey for like a runner, for like a marathoner, a guy who runs all the time, is emotionally different than someone who just got told they need to lose weight at the doctor. Someone who travels for business all the time versus someone who's taking their first ever international…travel. Like, my wife retold a story the other day to my aunt about how her first European trip was when she won a raffle to go to Austria when she was 17. And her, like, single mom was taking her to Europe, and neither of them had ever been to Europe. That's a different luggage journey than me, who used to fly 300,000 miles a year. And I think that if you take the time to really appreciate the emotional nuance of those journeys, yes there's data challenges, and yes there's customer recognition challenges, so you can personalize it. But I would urge every brand to start with like the emotional amino-acid level of why that journey starts, and then reverse-engineer it from there. Because I think you'll be able to answer the data challenges and the attribution challenges, but I think that's a place where we sometimes get too tech-y and too tactical, as opposed to human.” Kate: Another challenge unique to flowers and other products usually given as gifts is that there are two completely different humans involved in the transaction, each with different expectations and emotions riding on it. Charlie Cole: “There's two people involved in every one of our journeys, or about 92% of them: the buyer, and the receiver. So how do I message to you, I don't want to ruin the surprise! But I need to educate you, and oh yeah, I'm a really really nervous boyfriend, right? I wanna make sure everybody's doing it right, and it's gonna be there on time, and I need to make sure it's going to the right place… So the messaging pathways to the sender and receiver are fundamentally different. If you kind of forget about your buying journey, and imagine everything as a gifting buyer journey, it just changes the messaging component. Not in a nuanced way, but darn near in a reciprocal way.” And while some businesses struggle to connect emotionally with the humans that make up their customer base, the tech industry—and specifically social media companies—seem to fundamentally understand what it is that humans crave, in a way that allows them to use it against us. They thrive because they take something that is quintessentially human—connecting with people and sharing our lives—and turn it into a means for data collection that can then be used to sell us products that feel specifically designed for us. Like most of us, Neil Redding has experienced this phenomenon firsthand. Neil Redding: “We spend more and more of our time in contexts that we are apparently willing to have commercialized, right? Instagram is kind of my go-to example, where almost all of us have experienced this uncanny presentation to us of something that we can buy that's like so closely tied to… I mean, it's like how did you know that this is what I wanted? So myself and people close to me have just said, ‘wow, I just keep buying this stuff that gets presented to me on Instagram that I never heard of before but gets pushed to me as like, yeah it's so easy, and it's so aligned with what I already want. So there's this suffusion of commercial transaction—or at least discovery—of goods that can be bought and sold, y'know, in these moments of our daily lives, y'know, so that increasingly deep integration of commerce and buying and selling of things into our self-expression, into our communication, works because what we care about and what we are willing to buy or what we are interested in buying are so intertwined, right? They're kind of the same thing at some deep level.” Kate: Part of the reason this works is that humans crave convenience. Lack of convenience adds friction to any process, and friction can quickly lead to frustration, which isn't a mind state that leads to more business. The internet and social media has made keeping up with friends and gathering information incredibly convenient, so an advertisement here or there—especially one that looks and feels the same as everything else on our feed—doesn't bother us like it might in other contexts. And when those advertisements have been tailored specifically to our interests, they're even less likely to spark a negative emotion, and may in fact encourage us to buy something that we feel is very “us.” The big question for business leaders and marketers then is how do you digitize your business so that it emphasizes the richness of the human experience? How do you know which technologies to bring into your business, and which to leave aside? There are plenty of established and emerging technologies to choose from: Interactive email helps marketers drive engagement and also provides an avenue for additional data collection. Loyalty marketing strategies help brands identify their best customers and customize experiences for them. Salesforce introduced new features to help humanize the customer service experience with AI-powered conversational chatbots that feel pretty darn close to speaking with an actual human. Virtual and Augmented Reality website options allow customers to interact with products and see them in their hands or living rooms before they buy. With all the choice out there, it can be overwhelming. And t oo often, businesses and governments lean into the “just buy as much tech as possible!” approach without thinking integratively about the applications of said technology. Many companies are using that technology to leverage more data than ever before, hoping to customize and personalize experiences. David Ryan Polgar, a tech ethicist and founder of All Tech Is Human, explains why this method may not yield the results you think—because humans aren't just a collection of data points. David Ryan Polgar: “Are we an algorithm, or are we unique? I always joke, like, my mom always said I'm a, a snowflake! I'm unique! Because, when you think about Amazon and recommendations, it's thinking that your past is predicting your future. And that, with enough data, we can accurately determine where your next step is. Or even with auto-suggestion, and things like that. What's getting tricky is, is that true? Or is it subtly going to be off? With a lot of these auto-suggestions, let's say like text. Well the question I always like to think about is, how often am I influenced by what they said I should say? So if I wanna write, like, ‘have a…' and then it says ‘great day,' well, maybe I was gonna say great day, but maybe I was gonna say good day. And it's subtly different, but it's also influencing kinda, my volition. Now we're being influenced by the very technology that's pushing us is a certain direction. And we like to think of it, ‘well, it's already based on you,' but then that has a sort of cyclical nature to actually extending—” Kate: “Quantum human consciousness or something.” David: “Exactly! Exactly.” Kate: “Like, the moment you observe it, it's changed.” Kate: It's so easy, especially when you work with data, to view humans as output generators. But we're living in an age where people are growing increasingly wary of data collection, which means you may not know as much about the people whose data you've collected as you think you do. Becoming dependent on an entirely data-driven model for customer acquisition may lead to faulty decisions — and may even be seen as a huge mistake five years from now. Instead, I always talk about “human-centric digital transformation,” which means the data and tech-driven changes you make should start from a human frame. Even if you're already adopting intelligent automation to accelerate your operations, in some cases, very simple technologies may belong at the heart of your model. Here's Neil Redding again. Neil Redding: “Using Zoom or FaceTime or Skype is the only technology needed to do what a lot of stores have done during COVID, where their customers expect the store associate interaction when they come to the stores, they just create a one-on-one video call, and the shopper just has this interaction over videochat, or video call, and kind of does that associate-assisted shopping, right? And so you have that human connection, and again, it's nowhere near as great as sitting across a table and having coffee, but it's better than, y'know, a 2-dimensional e-commerce style shopping experience.” Kate: As a parallel to video conferencing, Virtual Reality has opened up avenues for new human experiences of business as well. Cathy Hackl, a metaverse strategist and tech futurist, explained a new human experience she was able to have during COVID that wouldn't have been possible without VR. Cathy Hackl: “I'll give you an example, like with the Wall Street Journal, they had the WSJ Tech Live, which is their big tech conference, and certain parts of it were in VR, and that was a lot of fun! I mean, I was in Spatial, which is one of the platforms, hanging out with Joanna Stern, and with Jason Mims, and like, in this kind of experience, where like I actually got to spend some 1-on-1 time with them, and I don't know if I would have gotten that if I was in a Zoom call, and I don't know if I would have gotten that in person, either.” Kate: Virtual Reality and video technologies have also opened up new avenues for healthcare, allowing patients to conference with doctors from home and only travel to a hospital if absolutely necessary. Marcus Whitney is a healthcare investor and founder of the first venture fund in America to invest exclusively in Black founded and led healthcare innovation companies; he explains that these virtual experiences allow for better happiness, healing, and comfort. Marcus Whitney: “Going forward, telehealth will be a thing. We were already on the path to doing more and more healthcare in the home. It was something that they were trying to stop because, is the home an appropriate place for healthcare to take place? Lo and behold, it's just fine. Patients feel more secure in the home, and it's a better environment for healing, so you're gonna see a lot more of that. I think we're finally gonna start seeing some real breakthroughs and innovation in healthcare. Most of the lack of innovation has not been because we didn't have great thinkers, it has largely been regulatory barriers. Remote patient monitoring was a huge one that came up in the last year, so now we have doctors caring about it. What moves in healthcare is what's reimbursable. They were always trying to regulate to protect people, but then they realized, well, we removed the regulatory barriers and people were fine, so that regulation makes actually no sense, and people should have more choice, and they should be able to do telehealth if they want to.” Kate: And that's just it: humans want choice. We want to feel seen, and heard, and like our opinions are being considered. There's another technology on the horizon that could give people more power over their technology, and therefore freedom and choice, that will likely cause massive change in the marketplace when it is more widely available: Brain-computer interface. Cathy Hackl explains. Cathy Hackl: “So I'm very keen right now on brain-computer interface. The way I'm gonna explain it is, if you've been following Elon Musk, you've probably heard of neuro-link—he's working on BCI that's more internal, the ones I've been trying are all external devices. So I'm able to put a device on that reads my brainwaves, it reads my intent, and it knows that I wanna scroll an iPad, or I've been able to turn on lights using just my thoughts, or play a video game, or input a code… I've been able to do all these things. And I'm very keen on it, very interested to see what's going on… I think the biggest thing that's stuck with me from studying all these technologies and trying them out from an external perspective, is that my brain actually really likes it. Loves the workout. Like, I'm thinking about it, and I'm like, the receptors here, pleasure receptors are like lighting up, I'm like ‘ohmygosh!' So I'm still sitting with that. Is that a good thing? Or a bad thing? I don't know, but I think these technologies can allow us to do a lot of things, especially people with disabilities. If they don't have a hand, being able to use a virtual hand to do things in a virtual space. I think that's powerful.” Kate: That story also illuminates the fact that there are many different types of people, each with different needs. Digital transformation has given people with disabilities a new way to claim more agency over their lives, which creates a brand new potential customer-base, filled with humans who desire freedom and choice as much as the next person. Now, let's talk about some companies who are doing at least a few q things right when it comes to the digital transformation of human experience. Starbucks, for instance. One of the worst parts of shopping in-store was waiting in line, and then the social pressure from the people behind you wishing you would order faster. If you weren't a regular customer, the experience could be overwhelming. When they launched their mobile order app, it tapped into a number of things that made the experience of buying coffee faster and easier, with all sorts of fun customization options that I never knew existed when I only ordered in-store. Now, even brand new customers could order complex coffee drinks — meaning in that one move the company may have brought in new customers and allowed the cost per coffee to increase — all without people feeling pressure from other shoppers, and without the inconvenience of waiting in line. Then there's Wal-Mart, who during the pandemic instituted ‘Wal-Mart pickup,' a service where people can shop online and pick up their goods without ever having to step into the store. The service is technically operating at a financial loss, but Wal-Mart understands that solid branding and convenience are worth more to their company's bottom-line in the long run than the amount of money they're losing by investing into this particular service. Of course, some businesses are better suited for the online-only world than others. As more companies attempt to digitize their businesses, it's incredibly important to tap into the human reasons that people wanted to engage with your business in the first place. In some cases, businesses have failed to make this connection, assuming that “if people liked us as a physical product, then they'll continue using us when we're digital,” or worse, “if we simply make people aware of us, they will become customers!” This assumption ignores human nature, as Ana Milicevic, a longtime digital media executive who is principal and co-founder of Sparrow Digital Holdings, explains. Ana Milicevic: “To be relevant in this direct to consumer world, you also have to approach awareness and customer acquisition differently. And this is the #1 mistake we see a lot of traditional companies make, and not really understand how to pitch to a digital-first, mobile-first consumer or a direct subscriber. They're just not wired to do it that way, and often times the technology stacks that they have in place just aren't the types of tools that can facilitate this type of direct interaction as well. So they're stuck in this very strange limbo where they are committed to continuing to acquire customers in traditional ways, but that's just not how you would go about acquiring a direct customer.” Kate: Acquiring those direct customers requires an understanding of what humans want—a large part of which is meaning. And how people create meaning in their lives is changing as well. Long before the pandemic, trends were already pointing toward a future where we live more of our lives online, but those trends have also been accelerated. So beyond digitizing your business, it may also be useful to invest time, money, and energy into discovering how the humans of the future will create meaning in their lives. Cathy Hackl discussed some of the trends she's seen in her own kids that show how today's children will consume and make purchasing decisions in a very different way than most modern businesses are used to. Cathy Hackl: “Something else that I'm noticing… y'know we're going to brick and mortar, but we're going to brick and mortar less. So you start to see this need for that virtual try-on to buy your makeup, or to buy clothes, and it's also transitioning not only from the virtual try-on into what I'm calling the direct-to-avatar economy. Everything from virtual dresses that you're buying, or custom avatars, y'know you're starting to create this virtualized economy. And this is the reason I always talk about this now, is my son recently did his first communion, and when we said, ‘hey, what do you want as a gift?' he said, ‘I don't want money, I want a Roblox gift card that I can turn into Robucks,'—which is the currency they use inside Roblox—'so that I can buy—whichever gamer's skin.' And, y'know, when I was growing up, my brother was saving up to buy AirJordans. My son doesn't want that, y'know, he wants Robucks, to buy something new for his avatar. This is direct-to-avatar; is direct-to-avatar the next direct-to-consumer?” Kate: Our online avatars represent us. We can customize them to directly express who we feel we are. Part of the reason this idea is so attractive is that many people—increasingly so in the context of online interaction—seek out meaningful experiences as our ‘aspirational' selves. We gravitate to the communities that align with facets of who we wish we were. And perhaps less productively, we may also choose to present the idealized version of ourselves to the world, omitting anything we're embarrassed by or that we feel may paint us in a negative light. But honestly, all of this makes sense in the context of making meaning, because humans are generally the most emotionally fulfilled when we feel empowered to control which ‘self' we present in any given interaction. With this much freedom of choice and expression, and with the complications of the modern supply chain—which I will talk about more in depth in our next episode—it's important to acknowledge that creating convenience and improving human satisfaction aren't going to be easy tasks. Behind the scenes, there is a tremendous amount of work that goes into providing a satisfying customer experience. Let's go back to the example of flowers and see what Charlie Cole has to say. Charlie Cole: “If it's too cold they freeze, if it's too hot they wilt, if UPS is a day late they die. And then, the real interesting aspect—and this isn't unique to flowers—the source is remarkably centralized. So the New York Times estimated that 90-92% of roses that are bought in America for Valentine's Day come from Columbia and Ecuador. And so, if anything goes wrong there, then you really don't have a chance. Imagine the quintessential Valentine's Day order: A dozen long-stem roses, New York City. Easy, right? I used to live on 28th and 6th, so let's say Chelsea. Okay, I've got 7 florists who could do it. Who has delivery capacity? Roses capacity? The freshest roses? The closest to proximity? The closest to the picture in the order? Who has the vase that's in the order? Did they buy roses from us? Because I like to be able to incentivize people based on margins they already have. And so without exaggeration, Kate, we have about 11-12 ranking factors that educate a quality score for a florist, and that's how it starts the process. But then there's all the other things, like how do we know somebody didn't walk into that florist that morning and buy all the roses, right? And so there's this real-time ebb-and-flow of demand because our demand is not ours! They have their own store, they have their own B2B business, they might take orders from some of our competitors. They might have their own website. We have no idea what any given florist happens in real time because they are not captive to us. What we've learned is the place we have to get really really really really good is technology on the forecasting side, on the florist communication side, and the customer communication side. Because I can't control the seeds on the ground in Columbia, but I can really control the communication across the entire network as far as we go, as well as the amounts the we need in various places.” Kate: Creating that small-scale, emotional human moment where someone receives flowers requires immense computing power and collaboration between multiple businesses and workers. Which is part of why Charlie Cole also believes that in some cases, the best way to help your business succeed is to invest in helping other businesses that yours interacts with. Charlie Cole: “Small businesses… I think it's our secret sauce. And I think COVID has shined a light on this: small businesses are the core of our communities. Right? They are the absolute core, and I think it was always nice to say that, but now we know it. And so here's what I think we do better than anybody else: we've invested more in helping our florists run their own small business independently of us than we have about optimizing our marketplace. We launched new POS software. We launched a new local website product where we're like the first person ever to become a reseller for Shopify because we made a custom platform for florists. We're just their website provider. They're actually competing with FTD.com in a lot of ways—but I think that's where we're gonna differentiate ourselves from all the other people that are perceived as, by small businesses, (their words not mine) leeches. Right? I think to actually effectively run a marketplace which is fulfilled by small businesses, you need to invest as much in helping them win their local market independent of you.” Kate: You could make the case that there is no more evolved human experience than choosing to help others. So if your business is engaged in activities that allow other businesses—and therefore humans—to thrive, you may also be building your brand in a direction that creates more customer loyalty than any exit survey or great service interaction ever could. Beyond understanding human emotions and needs, you can help your business by leaning into understanding how we create meaning. At our core, we are compelled to make meaning. Whether we realize it or not, meaningful experiences and interactions are the driving force behind many of our decisions, financial or otherwise. Meaning is different for everyone, but having it is vital to our happiness. If you are able to engage with potential customers in a way that helps them create meaning, or allows them to use your product to make meaning on their own, you are aligning your success with your customers' success, and that bodes well for the long term. At the end of the day, making any of these changes starts at the very top of your business. Leadership needs to set the tone, creating a culture that allows room for workers at every level to engage more meaningfully with customers, and with each other. (By the way, for more discussion on creating or changing work culture, you can check out our last episode, “Does the Future of Work Mean More Agency For Workers?”) Your effort will benefit not only your business, but society as a whole. Remember the Deloitte piece in the Wall Street Journal I mentioned at the start of the episode, with ways to be more human-centric in business? Number 5 on that list was “change the world,” and research from Frontiers suggests that the well-being of any society is directly linked to how the people living within it feel about their lives and purpose. How we do that may be as simple — and as complicated — as helping people to experience meaning at any level. While the technologies around us keep changing, the opportunity becomes increasingly clear for people who work around creating customer experiences and user experiences to open up the aperture to see humanity through a fuller lens. This way, as you set your business up for longterm success, you also advocate for making human experiences as meaningful as possible — and you just might be changing the world for the better. Thanks for joining me as I explored what it means to think of customers as human. Next time, I'll be exploring the supply chain and how, despite the vast technology involved, the closer you look the more you realize: the economy is people.

About KateKate Holterhoff, an industry analyst with RedMonk, has a background in frontend engineering, academic research, and technical communication. Kate comes to RedMonk from the digital marketing sector and brings with her expertise in frontend engineering, QA, accessibility, and scrum best practices.Before pursuing a career in the tech industry Kate taught writing and communication courses at several East Coast universities. She earned a PhD from Carnegie Mellon in 2016 and was awarded a postdoctoral fellowship (2016-2018) at Georgia Tech, where she is currently an affiliated researcher.Links: RedMonk: https://redmonk.com/ Visual Haggard: https://visualhaggard.org Twitter: https://twitter.com/kateholterhoff TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Couchbase Capella Database-as-a-Service is flexible, full-featured, and fully managed with built-in access via key-value, SQL, and full-text search. Flexible JSON documents aligned to your applications and workloads. Build faster with blazing fast in-memory performance and automated replication and scaling while reducing cost. Capella has the best price-performance of any fully managed document database. Visit couchbase.com/screaminginthecloud to try Capella today for free and be up and running in three minutes with no credit card required. Couchbase Capella: Make your data sing.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Revelo. Revelo is the Spanish word of the day, and its spelled R-E-V-E-L-O. It means, “I reveal.” Now, have you tried to hire an engineer lately? I assure you it is significantly harder than it sounds. One of the things that Revelo has recognized is something I've been talking about for a while, specifically that while talent is evenly distributed, opportunity is absolutely not. They're exposing a new talent pool to, basically, those of us without a presence in Latin America via their platform. It's the largest tech talent marketplace in Latin America with over a million engineers in their network, which includes—but isn't limited to—talent in Mexico, Costa Rica, Brazil, and Argentina. Now, not only do they wind up spreading all of their talent on English ability, as well as you know, their engineering skills, but they go significantly beyond that. Some of the folks on their platform are hands down the most talented engineers that I've ever spoken to. Let's also not forget that Latin America has high time zone overlap with what we have here in the United States, so you can hire full-time remote engineers who share most of the workday as your team. It's an end-to-end talent service, so you can find and hire engineers in Central and South America without having to worry about, frankly, the colossal pain of cross-border payroll and benefits and compliance because Revelo handles all of it. If you're hiring engineers, check out revelo.io/screaming to get 20% off your first three months. That's R-E-V-E-L-O dot I-O slash screaming.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Every once in a while on the Twitters, I see a glorious notification. Now, doesn't happen often, but when it does, I have all well, atwitter, if you'll pardon the term. They have brought someone new in over at RedMonk.RedMonk has been a longtime friend of the show. They're one of the only companies that can say that about and not immediately get a cease-and-desist for having said that. And their most recent hire is joining me today. Kate Holterhoff is a newly minted analyst over at RedMonk. Kate, thank you for joining me.Kate: It's great to be here.Corey: One of the things that's always interesting about RedMonk is how many different directions you folks seem to go in all at once. It seems that I keep crossing paths with you folks almost constantly: When I'm talking to clients, when I'm talking to folks in the industry. And it could easily be assumed that you folks are 20, 30, 40 people, but to my understanding, there are not quite that many of you there.Kate: That is very true. Yes. I am the fifth analyst on a team of seven. And yeah, brought on the first of the year, and I'm thrilled to be here. I actually, I would say, recruited by one of my friends at Georgia Tech, Kelly Fitzpatrick, who I taught technical communication with when we were both postdocs in their Brittain Fellowship program.Corey: So, you obviously came out of an academic background. Is this your first excursion to industry?Kate: No, actually. After getting my PhD in literary and cultural studies at Carnegie Mellon in 2016, I moved to Atlanta and took a postdoc at Georgia Tech. And after that was kind of winding down, I decided to make the jump to industry. So, my first position out of that was at a digital marketing agency in Atlanta. And I was a frontend engineer for several years.Towards the end of my tenure there, I moved into doing more of their production engineering and QA work. Although it was deeply tied to my frontend work, so we spent a lot of time looking at how the web sites look at different media queries, making sure that there were no odd break points. So, it certainly was an organic move there as their team expanded.Corey: You spent significant amounts of time in the academic landscape. When you start talking about, “Well, I took on a postdoc position,” that's usually the sign of not your first year on a college campus in most cases. I mean, again, with an eighth grade education, I'm not really the person to ask, but I sit here in awe as people who are steeped in academia wind up going about the magic that, from where I sit, they tend to do. What was it that made you decide that I really enjoy the field that I've gotten a doctorate in. You just recently published a book in that is—or at least tangentially related to this space.But you decide, “You know what I really want to do now? That's right, frontend engineering. I want to spend, more or less, 40-some-odd hours a week slowly going mad because CSS, and I can't quite get that thing to line up the way that I want it to.” Now, at least that's my experience with it, for folks who are, you know, competent at it, I presume that's a bit of a different story.Kate: Yes. I considered naming my blog at RedMonk, “How to Center a Div.” So yes, that is certainly an ongoing issue, I think, for anyone in [unintelligible 00:06:15] any, you know, practitioners. So, I guess my story probably began in 2013, the real move into technology. So, getting a PhD, of course, takes a very, very long time.So, I started at Carnegie Mellon in 2009, and in 2013, I started a digital archive called Visual Haggard. And it's a Ruby on Rails site; you can visit it at visualhaggard.org. And it is a digital archive of illustrations that were created to accompany a 19th century writer, H. Rider Haggard.And I became very interested in all the illustrations that had been created to accompany both the serialization of his fictions, but also the later novelizations. And it's kind of like how we have all these different movie adaptations of, like, Spider Man that come out every couple of years. These illustrations were just very iterative. And generally, this fellowship that I saw really only focused on, you know, the first illustrations that, you know, came out. So, this was a sort of response to that: How can we use technology to showcase all the different types of illustrations and how maybe different artists would interpret that literature differently?And so, that drove me into a discipline called the digital humanities, which really sort of, you know, focuses on that question, which is, you know, how to computers help us to understand the humanities better? And so, that incorporates not only the arts, but also literature, philosophy, you know, new media. But it's an extremely broad subject, and it's evolving, as you can imagine, as the things that technology can do expands. So, I became interested in this subject and really was drawn to the sort of archival aspects of this. Which wasn't really my training; I think that's something that, you know, you think of librarians as being more focused on, but I became acquainted with all these, you know, very obscure editions.But in any event, it also taught me how to [laugh] use technology, I really—I was involved in the [RDF 00:08:08] export for [laugh] incorporating the site on Nines, which is sort of a larger agglomeration of 19th century archives. And I was just really drawn to a lot of the new things that we could do. So, I began to use it more in my teaching. So, not only did I—and of course as I taught communication courses at Carnegie Mellon, and then I moved to teaching them at Georgia Tech, you can imagine I had many students who were engineers, and they were very interested in these sorts of questions as well. So, the move felt very organic to me, but I think any academic that you speak to, their identity is very tied up in their sort of, you know, academic standing.And so, the idea of jumping ship, of not being labeled an academic anymore is kind of terrifying. But I, you know, ultimately opted to do it. It certainly was, yeah, but you know, what [laugh] what I learned is that there's the status called an affiliated researcher. So, I didn't necessarily have to be a professor or someone on the tenure track in order to continue doing research.Corey: Was it hard for you?Kate: So, the book project, which is titled Illustration in Fin-de-Siècle Transatlantic Romance Fiction, and has a chapter devoted to H. Rider Haggard, I wrote it, while really not even being an instructor or sort of traditional academic. I had access to the library through this affiliated researcher status, which I maintained by keeping a relationship with the folks at Georgia Tech, and was able to do all my research while you know, having a job in industry. And I think what a lot of academics need to do is think about what it is about academia that they really value. Is it the teaching?Because in industry, we spend a lot of time teaching [laugh]. Sharing our knowledge is something that's extremely important. Is that the research? As an analyst, I get to do research all the time, which is really fun for me. And then, you know, is it really just kind of focusing on historical aspects? And that was also important to me.So, you know, this status allowed me to keep all the best parts of being an academic while kind of sloughing off the [laugh] parts that weren't so good, which is, um, say the fact that 80% of courses in the university are taught now by adjuncts or folks who are not on the tenure track line. Which is, you know, pretty shocking, you know. The academy is going through some… troubles right now, and hiring issues are—they need to be acknowledged, and I think folks who are considering getting a PhD need to look for other career paths beyond just through modeling it on their advisors, or, you know, in order to become, ostensibly, a professor themselves.Corey: I don't know if I've told the story before in public, but I briefly explored the possibility of getting a PhD myself, which is interesting given that I'd have to… there's some prerequisites I'd probably have to nail first, like, get a formal GED might be, like, step one, before proceeding on. And strangely enough for me, it was not the higher level, I guess, contribution to a body of knowledge in a particular direction. I mean, cloud economics being sort of an easy direction for me [laugh] to go in, given that I eat, sleep, live, and breathe it, but rather the academic rigor around so much of it. And the incentives feel very different, which to be clear, is a good thing. My entire career path has always been focused on not starving to death, and how do we turn this problem into money, whereas academia has always seemed to be focused on knowledge for the sake of knowledge without much, if any, thought toward the practical application slash monetization thereof? Is that a fair characterization from where you sit? I'm trying not to actively be insulting, but it's possible I may be unintentionally so.Kate: No, I think you're right on. And so yeah, like, the book that I published, I probably won't see any remuneration for that. There is very little—I'm actually [laugh] not even sure what the contract says, but I don't intend to make any money with this. Professors, even those who have reached the height of their career, unless they're, you know, on specific paths, don't make a lot of money, those in the humanities, especially. You don't do this to become wealthy.And the Visual Haggard archive, I don't—you know, everything is under a Creative Commons license. I don't make money from people, you know, finding images that they're looking for to reproduce, say, on a t-shirt or something. So yeah, I suspect you do it for the love. I always explained it as having a sort of existential anxiety of, like, trying to, you know, cheat death. I think it was Umberto Eco who said that in order to live forever, you have to have a child and a book.And at this point, I have two children and a book now, so I can just, you know, die and my, you know, [laugh] my legacy lives on. But I do feel like the reasons that folks go into upper higher education vary, and so I wouldn't want to speak for everyone. But for me, yeah, it is not a place to make money, it's a place to establish sort of more intangible benefits.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at ChaosSearch. You could run Elasticsearch or Elastic Cloud—or OpenSearch as they're calling it now—or a self-hosted ELK stack. But why? ChaosSearch gives you the same API you've come to know and tolerate, along with unlimited data retention and no data movement. Just throw your data into S3 and proceed from there as you would expect. This is great for IT operations folks, for app performance monitoring, cybersecurity. If you're using Elasticsearch, consider not running Elasticsearch. They're also available now in the AWS marketplace if you'd prefer not to go direct and have half of whatever you pay them count towards your EDB commitment. Discover what companies like Klarna, Equifax, Armor Security, and Blackboard already have. To learn more, visit chaossearch.io and tell them I sent you just so you can see them facepalm, yet again.Corey: I guess one of the weird things from where I sit is looking at the broad sweep of industry and what I know of RedMonks perspective, you mentioned that as a postdoc, you taught technical communication. Then you went to go to frontend engineering, which in many respects is about effectively, technically—highly technical and communicating with the end-user. And now you are an analyst at RedMonk. And seeing what I have seen of your organization in the larger ecosystem, teaching technical communication is a terrific descriptor of what it is you folks actually do. So, from a certain point of view, I would argue that you're still pursuing the path that you are on in some respects. Is that even slightly close to the way that you view things, or am I just more or less ineffectively grasping at straws, as I am wont to do?Kate: No, I feel like there is a continuous thread. So, even before I got my PhD, I got a—one of my bachelor's degrees was in art. So, I used to paint murals; I was very interested in public art. And so, it you know, it feels to me that there is this thread that goes from an interest in the arts and how the public can access them to, you know, doing web development that's focused on the visual aspects, you know, how are these things responsive? What is it that actually makes the DOM communicate in this visual way? You know, how are cascading style sheets,allowing us to do these sorts of marvelous things?You know, I could talk about my favorite, you know, selectors and things. [laugh]. Because I will defend CSS. I actually don't hate it, although we use SASS if it matters. But you know, that I think there's a lot to be said for the way that the web looks today rather than, you know, 20 years ago.So there, it feels very natural to me to have moved from an interest in illustration to trying to, you know, work in a more frontend way, but then ultimately [laugh] move from that into doing, sort of, QA, which is, like, well, let's take a look at how we're communicating visually and see if we can improve that to, you know, look for things that maybe aren't coming across as well as they could. Which really forced me to work in the interactive team more with the UI/UX folks who are, you know, obviously telling the designers where to put the buttons and, you know, how to structure the, you know, the text blocks in relationship to the images and things like that. So, it feels natural to me, although it might not seem so on the outside. You know, in the process, I really I guess, acquired a love of that entire area.And I think what's great about working at RedMonk now is that I get to see how these technologies are evolving. So, you know, I actually just spun up a site on [unintelligible 00:16:27] not long ago. And, I mean, it is so cool. I mean, you know, coming from a background where we were working with, you know, jQuery, [laugh] things have really evolved. You know, it's exciting. And I think we're seeing the, [like, as 00:16:39] the full stack approach to this.Corey: I used to volunteer for the jQuery infrastructure team and help run jquery.net, once upon a time.Kate: Ohh.Corey: I assume that is probably why it is no longer in vogue. Like, oh, Corey was too close to it got his stink all over the thing. Let's find something better immediately, which honestly, not the worst approach in the world to take.Kate: I'm so impressed. I had no idea.Corey: It was mostly—because again, I was bad at frontend; always have been, but I know how to make computers run—kind of—and on the backend side of things and the infrastructure piece of it. It's like I tend to—at least at the time—break the world into more or less three sets: You had the ops types, think of database admins and the rest; you had the backend engineers, people who wrote code that made things talk to each other from an API perspective, and you had frontend folks who took all of the nonsense and had this innovative idea that, “Huh, maybe a green screen glowing text terminal isn't the pinnacle of user experience that we might possibly think about, and start turning it into something that a human being can use.”And whatever I hear folks from one of those constituencies start talking disparagingly about the others, it's… yeah, go walk a mile in their shoes and then tell me how you feel. A couple years ago, I took a two week break to, all right, it's time for me to learn JavaScript. And by the end of the two weeks period, I was more confused than I was when I began. And it's just a very different way of thinking than I have become accustomed to working with. So, from where I sit, people who work on that stuff successfully are effectively just this side of wizards.I think that there's—I feel the same way about database types. That's an area I never go into either because I'm terrible at that, and the stakes over their company-killing proportions in a way that I took down a web server usually doesn't.Kate: Yeah, I think that's often the motto, well, at least at my last company, which was like, “It's just a website. No one will die.” [laugh].Corey: Honestly, I find that the people who have really have the best attitude about that tend to be, strangely enough, military veterans because it's, “The site is down. How are you so calm?” It's, “Well, no one's shooting at me and no one's going to die? It's fine.” Like, “We're all going to go home to our families tonight. It'll work out.” It having perspective is important.Kate: Yeah. It is interesting how the impetus—I mean, going back to your question about, you know, making money at this field, you know, how that kind of factors in, I guess, frontend does tend to have a more relaxed attitude than say, yeah, if you drop a table or something. But at the same time, you know, compared to academia, it did feel a little bit more [laugh] like, “Okay, well, this—you know, we've got the project manager that is breathing down our neck. They got to send them something, you know, what's going on here?” So, yeah, it does become a little bit more, I don't know, these things ramped up a little bit, and the importance, you know, varies by, you know, whatever part of it you're working on.It's interesting, as an analyst, I don't hear the terms backend and frontend as much, and that was really how my team was divided, you know? It was really, kind of, opaque when you walked in. Started the job, I was like, “Okay, well, is this something that the frontend should be dealing with or the backend? You know, what's going on?” And then, you know, ultimately, I was like, “Oh, no, I know exactly what this is.”And then anyone who came on later, I was like, “No, no, no. We talk to the backend folks for this sort of problem.” So, I don't know if that's also something that's falling out of vogue, but that was, you know, the backend handled all the DevOps aspects as well, and so, you know, anything with our virtual boxes and, you know, trying to get things running and, you know, access to our… yeah, the servers, you know, all of that was kind of handled by backend. But yeah, I worked with some really fantastic frontend, folks. They were just—I feel like they we could bet had been better categorized as full stack. And many of them have CS degrees and they chose to go into frontend. So, you know, it's a—I have no patience for, you know—Corey: Oh God, you mean you chose this instead of it being something that happened to you in a horrible accident one of these days?Kate: [laugh]. Exactly.Corey: And that's not restricted to frontend; that's working with computers, in my experience.Kate: [laugh].Corey: Like, oh, God, it's hard to remember I chose this at one point. Now, it feels almost like I'm not suited for anything else. You have a clear ability to effectively communicate technical concepts. If not, you more or less wasted most of your academic career, let's be very clear. Then you decided that you're going to go and be an engineer for a while, and you did that.Why RedMonk? Why was that the next step because with that combination of skills, the world is very much your oyster. What made you look at RedMonk and say, “Yes, this is where I should work?” And let me be very clear. There are days I have strongly considered, like, if I weren't doing this, where would I be? And yeah, I would probably annoy RedMonk into actively blocking me on all social media or hiring me. There's no third option there. So, I agree wholeheartedly with the decision. What was it that made it for you?Kate: I mean, it was certainly not just one thing. One of the parts of academia that I really enjoyed was the ability to go to conferences and just travel and really get to meet people. And so, that was something that seemed to be a big part of it [unintelligible 00:21:27] so that's kind of the part that maybe doesn't get mentioned so much. And then especially in the Covid era, you know, we're not doing as much traveling, as you're well aware.Corey: We're spending all of our time having these conversations via screen.Kate: You know, I do enjoy that.Corey: Yeah. Like in the before times, probably one out of every eight episodes or so of this show was recorded in person.Kate: Wow.Corey: Now, it's, “I don't know. I don't really know if I want to go across town.” It's a—honestly, I've become a bit of a shut-in here. But you get it down to a science. But you lose something by doing it.Kate: That's true.Corey: There's a lack of high bandwidth communication.Kate: And many of my academic friends, when they would go to conferences, they would just kind of hide in their hotel room until they had to present. And I was the kind of person that was down in the bar hanging out. So, to me, it [laugh] felt very natural. But in terms of the intellectual parts, in all seriousness, I think the ability to pull apart arguments is something that I just truly enjoy. So, when I was teaching, which of course was how—was why they paid me to be an academic, you know, I loved when I could sit in a classroom and I would ask a question. You know, I kind of come up with these questions ahead of time.And the students would say something totally unexpected, and then I'd have another one, say something totally out of the blue as well. And I get to take them and say, “You're both right. Here's how we combine them, and here's how we're going to move forward.” Sort of, the ability to take an argument and sort of mold it into something constructive, I think can be very useful, both in, you know, meeting with clients who maybe are, you know, coming at things a little bit differently than then maybe we would recommend in order to, you know, help them to reach developers, the practitioners, but also, you know, moderating panels is something that a lot of my colleagues do. I mean, that's a big part of the job, too, is, you know, speaking and… well, not only doing sort of keynote talks, which my colleague Rachel is doing that at, I think, a [GlueCon 00:23:14] this year.And then—but also, you know, just in video format, you know, to having multiple presenters and, kind of, taking their ideas and making something out of that sort of forwards the argument. I think that's a lot of fun. I like to think I do an okay job at it. And I certainly have a lot of experience with it. And then just finally, you know, listening to argument [unintelligible 00:23:30] a big part of the job is going to briefings where clients explain what their product does, and we listen and try to give them feedback about how to reach the developer audience, and, you know, just trying to work on that communication aspect.And I think what I would like to push is more of the visual part of this. So, I think a lot of times, people don't always think through the icons that they include, or the illustrations, or the just the stock photos. And I find those so fascinating. [laugh]. I know, that's not always the most—the part that everyone wants to focus on, but to me, the visuals of these pitches are truly interesting. They really, kind of, maybe say things that they don't intend always, and that also can really make concrete ideas that are, especially with some of this really complex technology, it can really help potential buyers to understand what it accomplishes better.Corey: Some of the endless engagements I've been on that I enjoy the most have been around talking to vendors who are making things. And it starts off invariably as, “Yeah, we want to go ahead and tell the world about this thing that we've done.” And my perspective has always been just a subtle frame shift. It's like, “Yeah, let me save some time. No one cares. Absolutely no one cares. You're in love with the technical thing that you built, and the only people who are going to love it as much as you do are either wanting to work where you, or they're going to go build their own and they're not going to be your customer. So, don't talk about you. No one cares about you. Talk about the pain that you solve. Talk about the painful thing that you're target customer is struggling with that you make disappear.”And I didn't think that would be, A, as revelatory as it turned out to be, and B, a lesson that I had to learn myself. When I was starting o—when I was doing some product development here where I once again fell into the easy trap of assuming if I know something, everyone must know it, therefore, it's easy, whereas if I don't know something, it's very hard, and no one could possibly wrap their head around it. And we all come from different places, and meeting people wherever they are in their journey, it's a delicate lesson to learn. I never understood what analysts did until I started being an analyst myself, and I've got to level with you, I spent six months of doing those types of engagements feeling like a giant fraud. I'm just a loudmouth with an opinion, what is what does that mean?Well, in many ways, it means analyst. Because it's having an opinion is in so many ways, what customers are really after. Raw data, you can find that a thousand different ways, but finding someone who could talk on what something means, that's harder. And I think that we don't teach anything approaching that in most of our STEM curriculum.Kate: Yeah, I think that's really on point. Yeah, I mean, especially when some of these briefings are so mired in acronyms, and sort of assumed specialization. I know I spend a lot of time just thinking about what it is that confuses me about their pitch, more so than what, you know, is actually coming through. So, I think actually, one of the tools that we use—writing instructors; my past life—was thinking like someone with an eighth grade education. So, I actually think that your reference to having [laugh] you know, that's sort of chestnut, that can actually be useful because you say, “If I, you know, took my slide deck and showed it to a bunch of eighth graders, would they understand what it is that I'm saying?”You know, maybe you don't want them to get the technical details, but what problem does it solve? If they don't understand that, you're not doing a good enough job. And so that, to me, is [laugh] actually something that a lot of folks need to hear. That yeah, these vendors because they're just so deep in it, they're so in the weeds, that they can't maybe see how someone who's just looking for a database, or a platform, or whatever, they actually need this sort of simplified and yet broad enough explanation for what it is that they're actually trying to do what service they actually provide.Corey: From where I sit, one of the hardest things is just reaching people in the right way. And I'm putting out a one to two-thousand word blog post every week because I apparently hate myself. And that was a constant struggle for me when I started doing that a year or two ago. And what has worked for me that really get me moving down that is, instead of trying to teach everyone all the things, I pick an individual—and it varies from week to week—that I think about and I want to explain something to that person. And then I wind up directing what it is I'm about to tell—what it is I'm writing—to that person.Sometimes they're a complete layperson. Other times they are fairly advanced in a particular area of technology. And the responses to these things differ, but it's always—I always learn something from the feedback that I get. And if nothing else, is one of those ways to become a better writer. While I would start by writing. Just do it, don't whine—don't worry about getting it perfect; just go out there and power through things.At least, that's my approach. And I'm talking about the burden of writing a thousand words a week. You wrote an actual book. My belief is that, the more people I've talked to who've done that, no one actually wants to write a book; people want to have written a book, and that definitely resonates with me. I am tempted to just slap a bunch of these—Kate: Yeah.Corey: —blogs posts together and call it a book one of these days as an anthology. But it feels like it's cheating. If I ever decide to go down that path, I want to do it right.Kate: I guess, I come at it from the perspective of I don't know what I think until I write it down. So, it helps me to formulate ideas better. I also feel like my strength is in rereading things and trying to edit them down to really get to the kernel of what it is I think. And a lot of times how I begin a chapter or a blog post or whatever is not where it should begin, that maybe I'm somewhere in the middle, maybe this is a conclusion. There's something magical, in my view, that [laugh] happens when you write, that you are able to pause and take a little bit more time and maybe come up with a better word for what it is that you're trying to communicate.I also am—I benefit from readers. So, for instance, in my book, I have one chapter that really focuses on Harper's Weekly, which is an American newspaper. I'm not an Americanist; I don't have a deep knowledge of that, so what I did is I revise that chapter and send it to American periodicals and got feedback from their readers. Super useful. In terms of my blog at RedMonk, anytime I publish something, you can bet that at least one founder and probably at least one other analyst has read it through and giving me some extremely incisive feedback. It never is just from my mind. It's something that is collaboration.And I am grateful to anyone who takes the time to read my writing because, you know, all of us have so much time, of course. It really helps me to understand what it is that I'm trying to dig into. So, for instance, I've been writing a series for RedMonk on certifications, which makes a lot of sense; I've come from an academic background, here it is, you know, I'm seeing all these tech certifications. And so, it's interesting to me to see similarities and differences and what sort of issues that we're seeing come up with them. So, for instance, I just wrote about the vendor-specific versus vendor-neutral certifications. What are the advantages of getting a certification from the CN/CF versus from say, VMware and—Corey: Oh, I have opinions, on all of [those 00:30:44]—Kate: I—Corey: —and most of them are terrible.Kate: —I'm sure you do. [laugh]. It came naturally out of the job, you know, sitting through briefings and, kind of, seeing these things evolve, and the questions that I have from a long history of teaching, but. I think it also suggests the collaborative aspect of this, of coming to my colleagues—you know, I've been here before, for what, four months?—and saying, you know, “Is this normal? Like, what are we seeing here? Let me write a little bit about what I think is going on with certifications, and then you tell me, you know, what it is that you've seen with your years and years of expertise,” right?So, Stephen O'Grady's been doing this for longer than he really likes to admit, right? So, this is grateful to have such well-established colleagues that can help me on that journey. But, you know, to kind of spiral back to your original question, I think that writing to me is an exploration, it's something that helps me to get to something a little more, I guess, meaningful than just where I began. You know, just the questions that I have, I can kind of dig down and find some substance there. I would encourage you to take any one of your blog posts and think about maybe where they—or using the jumping off points for your eventual book, which I will be looking for on newsstands any day now.Corey: I am looking forward to seeing how you continue to evolve your coverage area, as well as reading more of your writings around these things. I am—they always say that the cobblers children have no shoes, and I am having an ongoing war with the RedMonk RSS feed because I've been subscribed to it three times now, and I'm still not seeing everything that comes through, such as your posts. Time for me to go and yell at some people over on your end about how these things work because it is such good content. And every time RedMonk puts something out, it doesn't matter who over there has written it, I wind up reading it with this sense of envy, in that I wish I had written something like this. It is always an experience, and your writing is absolutely no exception to that. You fit in well over there.Kate: It means a lot to me. Thank you. [laugh].Corey: No, thank you. I want to thank you for spending so much time talking to me about things that I feel like I'm still not quite smart enough to wrap my head around, but that's all right. If people want to learn more, where's the best place to find you?Kate: Certainly Twitter. So, my Twitter handle is just my name, @kateholterhoff. And I don't post as often as maybe I should, but I try to maintain an ongoing presence there.Corey: And we will of course, put a link to that in the [show notes 00:33:04].Kate: Thank you.Corey: Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it. Kate Holterhoff, analyst at RedMonk. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice—or if you're on YouTube, smash that like and subscribe button—whereas if you've hated this podcast, please do the exact same thing—five-star review, smashed buttons—but then leave an angry, incoherent comment, and it's going to be extremely incoherent because you never learned to properly, technically communicate.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble. 

From Prince Andrew's scandalous court case to the continued rift with Prince Harry, and now a less than triumphant Caribbean tour by William and Kate… It's not been a great start to the Queen's Platinum Jubilee year. But is there more to worry about? Is real damage being done to the institution of the Monarchy? Veteran Royal watcher Robert Hardman gives Andy Bell his verdict. How Did We Get Here? Explaining the News is a podcast from 5 News. Join Andy Bell as he explains the world's biggest news stories through interviews with politicians, experts, and analysts. Produced by Silvia Maresca.

01:48 - Kate's Superpower: Empathy * Absorbing Energy * Setting Healthy Energetic Boundaries * Authenticity * Intent vs Impact 10:46 - Words and Narratives Carry Power; Approaching Inclusive Language * Taking Action After Causing Harm * Get Specific, But Don't Overthink * Practice Makes Progress * Normalize Sharing Pronouns * No-CodeConf (https://webflow.com/nocodeconf) * No-CodeSchool (https://nocodeschool.co/) * Gender Expresion Does Not Always Equal Gender Identity 21:27 - Approaching Inclusive Language in the Written Word * Webflow Accessibility Checklist (https://webflow.com/accessibility/checklist) * Asking For Advice * Do Your Own Research/Work 29:18 - Creating Safe Places, Communities, and Environments * Absorbing and Asking * Authenticity (Cont'd) * Adaptation to Spaces * Shifting Energy 42:34 - Building Kula (https://kulayogadenver.com/) While Working in Tech * Community Care, Mutual Aid-Centered Model * Using Privilege to Pave the Way For More People * Alignment Reflections: John: The dichotomy between perfectionism and authenticity. Arty: Words carry power. Kate: Having an open heart is how you can put any of this into action. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: PRE-ROLL: Software is broken, but it can be fixed. Test Double's superpower is improving how the world builds software by building both great software and great teams. And you can help! Test Double is hiring empathetic senior software engineers and DevOps engineers. We work in Ruby, JavaScript, Elixir and a lot more. Test Double trusts developers with autonomy and flexibility at a remote, 100% employee-owned software consulting agency. Looking for more challenges? Enjoy lots of variety while working with the best teams in tech as a developer consultant at Test Double. Find out more and check out remote openings at link.testdouble.com/greater. That's link.testdouble.com/greater. JOHN: Welcome to Greater Than Code. I'm John Sawers and I'm here with Arty Starr. ARTY: Thanks, John. And I'm here with our guest today, Kate Marshall. Kate is a copywriter and inclusivity activist living in Denver. Since entering tech 4 years ago, she's toured the marketing org from paid efforts to podcast host, eventually falling in love with the world of copy. With this work, she hopes to make the web a more welcoming place using the power of words. Outside of Webflow, you'll find Kate opening Kula, a donation-based yoga studio, and bopping around the Mile High City with her partner, Leah. Welcome to the show, Kate. KATE: Hi, thank you so much! ARTY: So we always start our shows with our famous first question. What is your superpower and how did you acquire it? KATE: My superpower, I've been thinking about this. My superpower is empathy. It can also be one of my biggest downfalls [laughs], which I actually think happens more often than not with any superpower. I once heard from a child, actually, they always seem to know best that too much of the good, good is bad, bad. [laughter] So it turns out sometimes too much empathy can be too overwhelming for my system, but it has really driven everything that I've done in my career and my personal life. As for how I acquired it, I don't know that you can really acquire empathy. I think it's just something you have, or you don't. I've always been extremely intuitive and if you're going through something, it's likely that I can feel it. So I think I'm just [laughs] I hate to steal Maybelline's line, but I think I was born with it. JOHN: You talked about having a downside there and I've heard – and I'm curious, because most people talk about empathy as a positive thing and wanting more people to develop more empathy, but I'd to love hear you talk a little bit more about what you see the downsides are. KATE: Yeah. As someone who struggles with her own mental health issues, it can be really overwhelming for me to really take on whatever it is you're going through. Especially if it's a loved one, you tend to care more about what they're feeling, or what they're going through and an empath truly does absorb the energy of what's happening around them. So although, it does influence a lot of the work that I do, both in my full-time career and opening my yoga studio and everything in between, it's also hard sometimes to set those boundaries, to set healthy, really energetic boundaries. It's hard enough to voice your boundaries to people, but setting energetic boundaries is a whole other ballgame. So it can tend to feel overwhelming at times and bring you down if the energy around you is lower than what you want it to be. ARTY: So what kind of things do you do to try and set healthy, energetic boundaries? KATE: Ah. I do a lot of what some people would call, including myself, woo-woo practices. [chuckles] Obviously, I practice yoga. I teach yoga. I'm super passionate about holistic, or energetic healing so I go to Reiki regularly. I'm in therapy, talk therapy. All of those things combined help me build this essentially an energetic shield that I can psych myself up to use any time I'm leaving the apartment. If it feels a high energy day, or if I'm meeting up with a friend who I know is going through something, I really have to set those boundaries is. Same thing kind of at work, too. So much of the time that we spend in our lives is spent at work, or interacting with coworkers or colleagues and same thing. Everyone's going through their own journey and battles, and you have to carry that energetic shield around you wherever you go. JOHN: One way I've often thought about having those sort of boundaries is the more I know who I am, the more what the limits of me are and the barrier between me and the universe is. So the work that I do, which includes therapy and other things, to understand myself better and to feel like I know what's me and what's not me, helps me have those boundaries. Because then I know if there's something going on with someone else and I can relate to it, but not get swept up by it. KATE: Yeah. It's so funny you say that because I was actually just having a conversation with a friend a couple weeks ago that has really stuck with me. I was kind of feeling like I was messing up, essentially. Like I was not fully able to honor, or notice all of the triggers of the people around me. I think especially at the end of the year and as a queer person who is surrounded by queer community, it can be really tough around the holidays. So that energy can just be generally more charged and I was finding it difficult to reconcile with my idea of perfection in that I really want to honor every person around me who has triggers, who has boundaries that maybe haven't been communicated, and it almost feels like you're almost always crossing some sort of line, especially when you're putting those perfectionism expectations on yourself. My friend was like, “I don't think it's as much about being perfect at it as much as it is feeling like you're being authentically yourself and really authentically interacting with those people.” I don't know if I can really voice what the connection is between being able to honor triggers and boundaries of the people around you and feeling like your authentic self, but there's something about it that feels really connected to me. As long as you're trying your best and feeling like you're coming from a place of love, or connection, or compassion, or empathy whatever feels most to you, that's really all we can do, right? JOHN: Yeah. I feel like that authenticity is such a tricky concept because the thoughts that you're having about wanting to be perfect and take care of everyone and make sure you're not triggering anybody and not stepping on any of your own things, that's also part of you that is authentically you. You may not want it to be that way, but it still is. [laughs]. ARTY: Yeah. JOHN: So I still don't have a really clear sense in my mind what authenticity really is. I think probably it settles down to being a little bit more in the moment, rather than up in the thinking, the judging, the worrying, and being able to be present rather than – [overtalk] ARTY: Totally. JOHN: Those other things, but it is tricky. KATE: Yeah. It can be tricky. Humans, man. [laughter] It really is like being a human and part of the human experience is going to be triggering other people. It's going to be causing harm. It's going to be causing trauma to other humans. That's just part of it. I think the more you can get comfy with that idea and then also just really feeling like you're doing everything you can to stay connected to your core, which usually is in humans is a place of love. You're rooted in love for the people around you. How could you criticize yourself too much when you know that you're coming from that place? ARTY: I feel like things change, too as you get feedback. In the context of any intimate relationship where you've got emotionally connected relationship with another person where you are more unguarded and you're having conversations about things that are more personal, that have at least the potential to hurt and cause harm. Like sometimes we do things not meaning to and we end up hurting someone else accidentally, but once that happens—and hopefully, you have an open dialogue where you have a conversation about these things and learn about these things and adapt—then I think the thing to do is honor each person as an individual of we're all peoples and then figure out well, what can we do to adapt how we operate in this relationship and look out for both people's best interests and strive for a win-win. If we don't try and do that, like if we do things that we know we're harming someone else and we're just like, “Well, you should just put up with that,” [laughs], or whatever. I think that's where it becomes problematic is at the same time, we all have our own limitations and sometimes, the best thing to do is this relationship doesn't work. The way that we interact causes mutual harm and we can't this a win-win relationship and the best thing to do sometimes is to separate, even though it hurts because it's not working. KATE: Yeah. I feel like sometimes it's a classic case of intent versus impact, too. Like what's your intention going into a conversation and then how does that end up actually impacting that person and how can you honor that and learn from that? That's actually one thing that I love so much about being a writer is that words do carry so much power—written word, spoken word, whatever it is. They hold so much power and they can cause harm whether we want them to, or not. Part of being an empath is caring a lot about people's lived experiences and I really see it as more than putting – being a writer and doing this every day, I see it so much more than just putting words on a page and hoping signs up for the beta, or watches the thing registers, or the conference. It's words can foster connection, words can build worlds for people; they can make people feel like they belong and I believe that I'm on this planet to foster that connection with each other and with ourselves. So it all connects for me. It all comes back around whether we're talking about being in a romantic relationship, or our relationship with our parents, or our caregivers, or the work that I do every day it all comes back to that connection and really wanting to make people feel more connected to themselves, to each other, and like they have a place with words. ARTY: Yeah. It's very powerful. Words and narratives, I would say too, just thinking about the stories that we tell ourselves, the stories that we tell one another that become foundational in our culture. It's all built upon were words. Words shape the ideas in our head. They shape our thoughts. They shape how we reflect on things, how we feel about things, and then when people give us their words, we absorb those and then those become part of our own reflections. KATE: Yeah. ARTY: We affect one another a lot. I think that's one of the things I'm just seeing and talking to you is just thinking about how much we affect one another through our everyday interactions. KATE: Yeah, and I think a lot of this comes down to – there's something you said earlier that resonated in that it's really about the action you take after you cause the harm, or after you say the thing that hurts the other person and it's less about – and that's what made me say intent versus impact because you see the impact, you acknowledge it, and you make a decision to lessen that next time, or to be aware, more aware next time. This is really at the core of all the work I do for inclusive language as well. It's just the core principle of the words we use carry a lot of power. And I was actually just chatting with someone in the No-Code space. We connected through Webflow a couple weeks ago and he said, “I think people are so scared to get it wrong when it comes to inclusive language,” and I experience this all the time. People freeze in their tracks because they don't know how address someone and then they're so scared to get it wrong and they're like, “Oh, so sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry,” and they're so apologetic. And then that makes it worse and it's just a whole thing. In this conversation, we were talking specifically about misgendering people. My partner is non-binary. They're misgendered every single day when we go to restaurants, when we are just out and about. So this is something that is a part of my life every day. I told him that fear is so real and I carry that fear, too because I don't want to hurt people because I want to like get it right. It comes back to that perfectionism, that expectation that I put on myself, especially as a queer person to get it right all the time. But so much of the good stuff lies in how you approach it and then how you fix it when you mess it up. Like, it's not so much about the thing, it's about the way that you approach it. If you approach inclusive language with an open mind, an open heart, and a real willingness, like true willingness to learn, that's what's important going into it and then you're already doing the work. You're already an ally. You're already however you want to put it. And then when you use an ableist word, or you use a racist word, or you misgender someone, your actions for following that speak volumes. I think we can really get caught up in the action itself and it's more about how you go into it and then how you try to fix it. ARTY: So I'm thinking for listeners that might identify with being in a situation of being in the headlights and not knowing how to respond, or what to do. Other than what you were just talking about with coming at it with an open heart, are there any specific recommendations you might have for how to approach inclusive language? KATE: Yeah. Yeah, I have a couple really, really good ones. So often, the way to speak more inclusively, or to write more inclusively is just to get more specific about what you're trying to say. So instead of saying, “Oh, that's so crazy,” which is ableist, you can say, “Oh, that's so unheard of.” That's a good example. Or instead of unnecessarily gendering something you're saying like, “Oh, I'm out of wine, call the waitress over.” It's server instead of waiter, or waitress. You kind of start to essentially practice replacing these words and these concepts that are so ingrained into who we are, into society at large, and really starting to disrupt those systems within us with challenging the way that we've described things in the past. So just essentially getting more specific when we're speaking. When it comes to misgendering people specifically, it's really important to not be overly apologetic when you misgender someone. I can give an example. If a server, for example, comes up to me and my partner and says, “Can I get you ladies anything else?” And I say, “Oh, actually my partner uses they/them pronouns. They are not a lady,” and they say, “Oh my God, I'm so sorry. Oh shit!” And then that makes my partner feel bad [chuckles] for putting them in that position and then it's kind of this like ping pong back and forth of just bad feelings. The ideal scenario, the server would say, “Oh, excuse me, can I get you all anything else?” Or, “Can I get you folks anything else?” Or just, if you're speaking about someone who uses they/them pronouns and you say, “Yeah, and I heard she, I mean, they did this thing.” You just quickly correct it and move on. Don't make it into a production. It's okay. We get it. Moving on. Just try not to overthink it, basically. [laughs] Get more specific, but don't overthink it. Isn't that like, what a dichotomy. [laughter] JOHN: That ties back to what you were saying about perfectionism also, right? Like you said, you freeze up if you try and be perfect about it all the time, because you can't always know what someone's pronouns are and so, you have to make a guess at some point and maybe you're going to guess wrong. But it's how you deal with it by not making everybody uncomfortable with the situation. [laughs] KATE: Yeah. JOHN: And like you said, ping pong of bad feelings just amplifies, the whole thing blows out of proportion. You can just be like, “Oh, my apologies.” Her, they, whatever it is and then very quickly move on and then it's forgotten the next minute. Everything moves on from that, but you're not weeping and gnashing and – [laughter] KATE: Yeah. JOHN: Well, it means you don't have to keep feeling bad about it for the next 3 days either, like everyone can move on from that point. KATE: Right. Yeah, and just doing your best to not do it again. JOHN: Yeah. KATE: Once you learn, it's important to really let that try to stick. If you're having trouble, I have a friend who really has trouble with they/them pronouns and they practice with their dog. They talk to their dog about this person and they use they/them pronouns in that. Practice really does make perfect in this – not perfect, okay. Practice really does make progress in this kind of scenario and also, normalize sharing pronouns. JOHN: Yeah. KATE: It's more than just putting it in your Zoom name. It's more than just putting it in your Instagram bio. A good example of really starting this conversation was during Webflow's No-Code Conf, our yearly conference. It was mostly online and we had a live portion of it and every single time we introduced someone new, or introduced ourselves, we said, “My name is Kate Marshall, my pronouns are she/her, and I'm so happy to be here with you today.” Or just asking if you don't know, or if you're in a space with someone new, you say, “What are your pronouns?” It's really is that easy. Webflow made some year-round pride mech that we launched over the summer and we have a cute beanie that says “Ask me my pronouns.” It's like, it's cool to ask. It's fine to ask and that's so much better than unintentionally misgendering someone. It's going to take some time to get there, but normalize it. JOHN: Yeah, and I think there's one key to that that has always stuck out of my mind, which is don't ask pronouns just for the people you think might have different pronouns than you would expect. KATE: Yes. JOHN: Make it part of all the conversations so it's not just singling somebody out of a group and saying, “I want to know your pronouns because they're probably different.” That's not good. KATE: Right, because gender expression does not always equal gender identity. JOHN: Yeah. KATE: You can't know someone's gender identity from the way that they express their gender and that's also another huge misconception that I think it's time we talk more about. JOHN: So we've been talking a lot about conversations and person-to-person interactions and inclusive language there. But a lot of what you do is it on the writing level and I imagine there's some differences there. So I'm curious as to what you see as far as the things that you do to work on that in the written form. KATE: Yeah. So this is actually a really great resource that I was planning on sharing with whoever's listening, or whoever's following along this podcast. There is a really wonderful inclusive language guidelines that we have published externally at Webflow and I own it, I update it regularly as different things come in and inclusive language is constantly evolving. It will never be at a final resting point and that's also part of why I love it so much because you truly are always growing. I'm always learning something new about inclusive language, or to make someone feel more included with the words that I'm writing. This table has, or this resource has ableist language, racist language, and sexist language tables with words to avoid, why to avoid them, and some alternatives and just some general principles. I reference it constantly. Like I said, it's always evolving. I actually don't know how many words are on there, but it's a good amount and it's a lot of things have been surfaced to me that I had no idea were racist. For instance, the word gypped. Like if you say, “Oh, they gypped me” is actually racist. It's rooted in the belief that gypsy people are thieves. [chuckles] So it's things like that we really kind of go deep in there and I reference this constantly. Also, ALS language is a really big consideration, especially in the tech space. So instead of – and this can be avoided most of the time, not all of the time. We do work with a really wonderful accessibility consultant who I run things by constantly. Shout out to Michele. Oh, she was actually on the podcast at one point. Michele Williams, shout out. Lovely human. So a good example is instead of “watch now,” or “listen now,” it's “explore this thing,” “browse this thing,” “learn more”. Just try not to get so specific about the way that someone might be consuming the information that I'm putting down on the page. Stuff like that. It truly does come down to just getting more specific as just a general principle. JOHN: So it sounds to me some of the first steps you take are obviously being aware that you have to mold your language to be more accessible and inclusive, then it's informing yourself of what the common pitfalls are. As you said, you have consultants, you've got guides, you've got places where you can gather this information and then once you have that, then you build that into your mental process for writing what you're writing. KATE: Yeah, and truly just asking questions and this goes for everyone. No one would ever – if I reached out to our head of DEI, Mariah, and said, “Mariah, is this thing offensive?” Or, “How should I phrase this thing to feel more inclusive to more people?” She would never come back at me and say, “Why are you asking me this? You should already know this,” and that is the attitude across the board. I would never fault someone for coming to me and asking me how to phrase something, or how to write something to make it feel better for more people. So it's really a humbling experience [laughs] to be in this position. Again, words carry so much power and I just never take for granted, the power essentially that I have, even if it is just for a tech company. A lot of people are consuming that and I want to make them feel included. JOHN: Yeah. The written face of a company is going to tell readers a lot about the culture of the company, the culture of the community around the product. KATE: Yeah. JOHN: Whether they're going to be welcome there, like what their experience is going to be like if they invest their time to learn about it. So it's really important to have that language there and woven into everything that's written, not just off the corner on the DEI page. KATE: Yeah. That's what I was just about to say is especially if you're a company that claims to prioritize DEI, you better be paying close attention to the words that you're using in your product, on your homepage, whatever it is, your customer support. I've worked with the customer support team at Webflow to make sure that the phrasing feels good for people. It truly does trickle into every single asset of a business and it's ongoing work that does not just end at, like you said, putting it on a DEI page. Like, “We care about this,” and then not actually caring about it. That sucks. [laughs] JOHN: Oh, the other thing before we move too far on from last topic, you're talking about asking for advice. I think one of the keys there, a, being humble and just saying, “I would like to know,” and you're very unlikely to get criticized for simply asking how something can be better. But I feel like one of the keys to doing that well is also not arguing with the person you've asked after they give you an answer. KATE: Right. Yes. Especially if that person is a part of the community that your words are affecting, or that your question is affecting. It's such a tricky balance because it's really not the queer community's job to educate people who are not queer about inclusive language. But when that person is willing to share their knowledge with the you, or willing to share their experience with you, you've got to listen. Your opinions about their lived experience don't come into that conversation, or shouldn't come into that conversation. It's not questioning the information that you're given, but then it's also taking that and doing your own research and asking more people and having conversations with your friends and family trying to widen this breadth of information and knowledge as a community. Like I said, kind of dismantling the things that we're taught growing up by capitalism, by society, everything that kind of unnecessarily separates and then doing better next time. I've actually had conversations with people who are very curious, who come to me with questions and then the next time I interact with them, they're just back to factory settings. That's so disappointing and just makes me feel like my energy could have been better spent having that conversation with someone who is more receptive. So I think it really is just about being open to hearing someone's experience, not questioning it, and then really taking that in and doing the work on your own. JOHN: Yeah, and part of that doing the work is also for the things that you can Google for the things where you can look at it from the guide, do that first before asking for someone's time. KATE: Yeah. JOHN: So that they're not answering the same 101 questions every time that are just written in 15 different blog posts. KATE: Yes. Especially if you're asking a marginalized person to do the work for you. JOHN: Yeah. KATE: Intersectionality matters and putting more work on the shoulders of people who are already weighed down by so much ain't it. [laughs] ARTY: Well, I was wanting to go back to your original superpower that you talked about with empathy. We talked a lot about some of these factors that make empathy of a difficult thing of over empathizing and what kind of factors make that hard. But as a superpower, what kind of superpowers does that give you? KATE: Ah, just being able to really connect to a lot of different people. I mentioned earlier that I believe it's my purpose, it's my life's work on this planet at this time to connect people to themselves and to each other. The more asking I can do and the more absorbing I can do of other people's experiences, the better I am at being able to connect with them and being able to make them feel like they belong in whatever space I'm in. I can't connect with someone if I don't try and get it. Try and get what they're going through, or what their experiences are. That's why I do so much time just talking to people, and that's why I love yoga and why I want to start this studio and open this space. Because we live in a world where we don't have a lot of spaces, especially marginalized communities don't have a lot of spaces that feel like they're being understood, or they're truly being heard, or seen. Me being an empath, I'm able to access that in people more and therefore, bringing them closer to safer spaces, or safer people, safer communities where they really feel like they can exist and be their full, whole, and complete selves. It's really special. ARTY: We also touched this concept of authenticity and it seems like that also comes up in this context of creating these safe spaces and safe communities where people can be their whole selves. So when you think about authenticity, we talked about this being a difficult and fuzzy word, but at the same time, it does have some meaning as to what that means, and these challenges with regards to boundaries and things. But I'm curious, what does authenticity mean to you? How does that come into play with this idea of safety and creating these safe spaces for others as well? KATE: Yeah. I feel like there's so much in there. I think one of the biggest things to accept about the word authenticity, or the concept of authenticity is that it's always changing and it means something different to everyone. We are all authentic to ourselves in different ways and at different times in our lives and I think it's so important to honor the real evolution of feeling authentic. There are times and days where I'm like who even am. It's like what even, but there's always this sort of core, root part of me that I don't lose, which is what we've been talking about. This ability to connect, this feeling of empathy, of compassion, of wanting to really be a part of the human experience. That, to me, kind of always stays and I feel like that's the authentic, like the real, real, authentic parts of me. There are layers to it that are always changing and as people, we are also always evolving and always changing. So those different parts of authenticity could be what you wear that make you feel like your most authentic self. It can be how you interact with your friends, or how you interact with the person, getting your popcorn at the movies, or whatever it is. Those can all feel like parts of your authentic self. That means something different to everyone. But I think that's such a beautiful part about it and about just being human is just how often these things are changing for us and how important it is to honor someone's authenticity, whatever that means for them at that time. Even if it's completely different from what you knew about them, or how you knew them before. It's this constant curiosity of yourself and of others, really getting deeply curious about what feels like you. ARTY: I was wondering about safety because you were talking about the importance of creating these safe communities and safe environments where people could be their whole, complete selves, which sounds a lot like the authenticity thing, but you trying to create space for that for others. KATE: Yeah. Well, the reality of safety is that there's no one space that will ever be a “safe space for everyone,” and that's why I like to say safer spaces, or a safer space for people because you can never – I feel like it's all coming full circle where you can never meet every single person exactly where they need to be met in any given moment. You can just do your best to create spaces that feel safer to them and you do that with authentic connection, with getting curious about who they are and what they love, and just making sure that your heart's really in it. [chuckles] Same with inclusive language. It's all about the way you approach it to make someone feel safer. But I do think it's an I distinction to remember. You're never going to be safe for everyone. A space you create is never going to be safe for everyone. The best you can do is just make it safer for more people. ARTY: When I think about just the opposite of that, of times that I've gone into a group where I haven't felt safe being myself and then when you talk of about being your complete whole self, it's like bringing a whole another level of yourself to a space that may not really fit that space and that seems like it's okay, too. Like we don't necessarily have to bring our full self to all these different spaces, but whatever space we're a part of, we kind of sync up and adapt to it. So if I'm in one space and I feel the kind of vibe, energy, context of what's going on, how people are interacting, the energy they put forth when they speak with whatever sorts of words that they use. I'm going to feel that and adapt to that context of what feels safe and then as more people start adapting to that, it creates a norm that other people that then come and see what's going on in this group come to an understanding about what the energy in the room is like. KATE: Yeah. ARTY: And all it takes is one person to bring a different energy into that to shift the whole dynamic of things. KATE: Yeah. The reality is you'll never be able to change every space and I think that's such a good point. It makes me feel like saying you have to be protective of your energy. If you go into a space and it just doesn't feel right, or there's someone who is in the room that doesn't feel safe to you, or that doesn't feel like they're on the same page as you, it's okay to not feel like you need to change the world in that space. Like you don't always have to go into a space and say, “I'm going to change it.” That is how change is made when you feel safe enough. That's why it's so important to foster that energy from the jump. That's just a foundational thing at a company in a yoga studio, in a home, at a restaurant. It can be changed, but it really should be part of the foundation of making a safer space, or a more inclusive space. Because otherwise, you're asking the people who don't feel safe, who are usually marginalized people, or intersectionally marginalized in some way. You're asking them essentially to put in the work to change what you should have done as the foundation of your space. So it's a such a delicate balance of being protective of your energy and really being able to feel out the places where you feel okay saying something, or making a change, or just saying, “No, this isn't worth it for me. I'm going to go find a space that actually feels a little bit better, or that I feel more community in.” ARTY: And it seems like the other people that are in the group, how those people respond to you. If you shift your energy, a lot of times the people that are in the group will shift their energy in kind. Other times, in a different space, you might try to shift energy and then there's a lot of resistance to that where people are going a different way and so, you get pushed out of the group energy wise. These sorts of dynamics, you can feel this stuff going on of just, I just got outcast out of this group. Those are the kinds of things, though that you need to protect your own energy of even if I'm not included in this group, I can still have a good relationship with me and I can still like me and I can think I'm still pretty awesome and I can find other groups of folks that like me. It definitely, at least for me, I tend to be someone who's like, I don't know, I get out grouped a lot. [laughs] But at the same time, I've gotten used to that and then I find other places where I've got friends that love me and care about me and stuff. So those are recharge places where I can go and get back to a place where I feel solid and okay with myself, and then I'm much more resilient then going into these other spaces and stuff where I might not be accepted, where I might have to be kind of shielded and guarded and just put up a front, and operate in a way that makes everyone else feel more comfortable. KATE: Yeah, and isn't it so powerful to feel cared for? ARTY: I love that. KATE: Like just to feel cared for by the people around you is everything. It's everything. That's it. Just to feel like you are wanted, or you belong. To feel cared for. It can exist everywhere is the thing. In your Slack group, or whatever, you can make people feel cared for. I have never regretted reaching out to a coworker, or a friend, or whoever an acquaintance and saying, “Hey, I love this thing about you,” or “Congratulations on this rad thing you just launched,” or whatever. It's the care that's so powerful. ARTY: I feel like this is one of those things where we can learn things from our own pain and these social interactions and stuff. One of the things that I've experienced is you're in a group and you say something and nobody responds. [laughs] KATE: Yeah. ARTY: And after doing that for a while, you feel like you're just shouting into the void and nobody hears you and it's just this feeling of like invisibility. In feeling that way myself, one of the things I go out of my way to do is if somebody says something, I at least try and respond, acknowledge them, let them know that they're heard, they're cared about, and that there's somebody there on the other side [chuckles] and they're not shouting into the wind because I hate that feeling. It's an awful feeling to feel invisible like that. KATE: Awful, yeah. ARTY: But we can learn from those experiences and then we can use those as opportunities to understand how we can give in ways that are subtle, that are often little things that are kind of ignored, but they're little things that actually make a really big difference. KATE: Yeah, the little things. It really is the little things, isn't it? [laughs] Like and it's just, you can learn from your experiences, but you can also say, “I'm not doing this right now.” You can also check out. If you are giving and giving. and find that you're in the void essentially, more often than not, you can decide that that's no longer are worth your time, your energy, your care, and you can redirect that care to somewhere else that's going to reciprocate, or that's going to give you back that same care and that's so important, too. JOHN: Yeah, and it sounds like starting a yoga studio is not a trivial undertaking and obviously, you're highly motivated to create this kind of an environment in the world. So is there anything more you'd like to say about that because that ties in very closely with what we're talking about? KATE: Yeah. It's so weird to work full-time and be so passionate about my tech job and then turn around and be like, “I'm opening a yoga studio.” It's such a weird, but again, it's all connected at the root, at the core of what I'm trying to do in this world. The thing about Kula is that it's really built on this foundational mutual aid model. So being donation-based, it's really pay what you can, if you can. And what you pay, if you're able to give an extra $10 for the class that you take, that's going to pay for someone else's experience, who is unable to financially contribute to take that class. That's the basis of community care, of mutual aid and it's really this heart-based business model that is really tricky. I'm trying to get a loan right now and [chuckles] it's really hard to prove business financials when you have a donation-based model and you say, “Well, I'm going to guess what people might donate per class on average.” So it's been a real journey, [laughs] especially with today's famous supply chain issues that you hear about constantly in every single industry. I have an empty space right now. It needs to be completely built out. Construction costs are about triple what they should be. Again, coming from this real mutual aid community care centered model, it's really hard, but I have to keep coming back. I was just telling my partner about this the other day, I have to keep coming back to this core idea, or this real feeling that I don't need to have a beautifully designed space to create what I'm trying to create. When I started this, I envisioned just a literal empty room [chuckles] with some people in it and a bathroom and that's it. So of course, once I saw the designs, I was like, “Oh, I love this can lighting that's shining down in front of the bathroom door.” It's like so whatever, stereotypical. Not stereotypical, but surface level stuff. I really have had to time and time again, return to this longing almost for a space that feels safer for me, for my community, for Black people, for disabled people, for trans people, for Asian people; we don't have a lot of spaces that feel that way and that's just the reality. So it's a real delicate balance of how do I like – this is a business and I need money, [laughs] but then I really want this to be rooted in mutual aid and community care. It comes back to that car and that inclusivity, creating authentic connections. It's tricky out there for a queer woman entrepreneur with no collateral. [laughs] It's a tricky world out there, but I think we'll flip it someday. I really think pioneering this idea, or this business model at least where I'm at in Denver, I think it's going to start the conversation in more communities and with more people who want to do similar things and my hope is that that will foster those conversations and make it more accessible to more people. JOHN: Yeah, and I think every time someone manages to muster up the energy, the capital, and the community effort to put something like this together, it makes it just slightly easier for someone else a, they can learn the lessons and b, they're more examples of this thing operating in the world. So it becomes more possible in people's minds and you can build some of that momentum there. KATE: Yeah. And of course, it's really important to note and to remember that I come from a place of immense privilege. I have a great job in tech. I'm white. I am upper middle class. Technically, I'm “straight passing,” which is a whole other concept, but it is a thing and this is the way that I'm choosing to use my privilege to hopefully pave the way for more people. I do not take for granted the opportunity that I'm given and like I said, intersectionality matters and all of that, but I still have a lot of privilege going into this that I hope turns into something good for more people. ARTY: It also takes a special kind of person to be an entrepreneur because you really have to just keep on going. No matter any obstacle that's in your way, you've just got to keep on going and have that drive, desire, and dream to go and build something and make it happen and your superpowers probably going to help you out with that, too. It sounds like we've got multiple superpowers because I think you got to have superpowers to be an entrepreneur in itself. KATE: Yeah. I don't know, man. It's such a weird feeling to have because it just feels like it's what I'm supposed to be doing. That's it. It doesn't feel like I'm like – yes, it's a calling and all of that, but it just feels like the path and that, it feels more, more natural than anything I guess, is what I'm trying to say. The more people follow that feeling, the more authentic of a world, the more connected of a world we're going to have. I see a lot of people doing this work, similar things, and it makes me so happy to see. The words of one of my therapists, one of my past therapists told me, “Always stick with me,” and it was right around the time I was kind of – so I'd started planning before COVID hit and then COVID hit and I had to pause for about a year, a little bit less than a year. It was right around the time I was filing my LLC and really starting to move forward. It was actually December 17th of last year that I filed my LLC paperwork. So it's been a little over a year now. He told me, “How much longer are you willing to wait to give the community this thing that you want to give them? How much are you willing to make them wait for this space?” And I was like, “Yesterday. Yesterday.” Like, “I want to give people this space immediately,” and that has truly carried me through. This supply chain stuff is no joke. [laughs] and it has really carried me through some of the more doubtful moments in this journey. Yeah, and I feel like, man, what powerful words. Like, I just want to keep saying them because they are such powerful words to me. How much longer are you willing to make them wait? And it's like, I don't want to. [chuckles] So I guess I'm going to go do it. [laughter] Throw caution to the wind. [laughs] JOHN: Well, I think that ties back into what you were talking about is as you were thinking about designing the space and what kind of buildout you're going to need, and that can be a guide star for what actually needs to be there. What's the actual MVP for this space? Does it need a perfect coat of paint, or is what's there good enough? Does it need all the things arranged just so in the perfect lighting, or does it just need to exist and have people in the room and you can really focus in on what's going to get you there? And then of course, you iterate like everything else, you improve over time, but. KATE: Right. JOHN: I love that concept of just cut out everything that's in the way of this happening right now as much as possible. KATE: Yeah, and what a concept, I think that can be applied to so many things. Who am I trying to serve with this thing and what do I need to do to get there? It doesn't have to be this shiny, beautiful well-designed creation. It just needs to serve people. The people that you want to serve in the best way possible, and for me, that's getting this space open and actually having it in action. ARTY: I think once you find something that feels in alignment with you, you seem to have lots of clarity around just your sense of purpose, of what you want to move toward of a deep connection with yourself. One thing I found with that is no matter how much you get rejected by various groups in the world, if you can be congruent and authentic with yourself and follow that arrow, that once you start doing that, you find other people that are in resonance with you. They're out there, but you don't find them until you align with yourself. KATE: Yeah. Community. Community is so powerful and I love that you just said alignment because that really is truly what it is. It's finding the thing that makes you feel like you're doing something good and that feels authentic to your core, to those core principles of you that never really change. The things that are rooted in love, the things that are rooted in compassion, or whatever it is you care about. Community, that alignment is absolutely key. It's also, when I say I was born with my superpower of being an empath, this desire to create this space feels, it feels like I was also born with this desire, or born with this alignment. So I feel like so many times it's just going back to the basics of who you are. ARTY: Like you're actualizing who you are. KATE: Yeah. Like full alignment, enlightenment, that all kind of falls into place when you're really making the effort to be connected to your core. ARTY: It seems like a good place to do reflections. So at the end of the show, we usually go around and do final reflections and takeaways, final thoughts that you have and you get to go last, Kate. JOHN: There are a whole lot of different things that I've been thinking about here, but I think one of the ones that's sticking with me is the dichotomy between perfectionism and authenticity, and how I feel like they really are pulling against one another and that, which isn't to say things can't be perfect and authentic at the same time. But I think perfectionism is usually a negative feeling. Like you should do something, you're putting a lot of pressure, there's a lot of anxiety around perfectionism and that is pretty much an opposition to being authentically yourself. It's hard to be in touch with yourself when you're wrapped up in all those anxieties and so, thinking about the two of them together, I hadn't made that connection before, but I think that's something that's interesting that I'll be thinking about for a while. ARTY: I think the thing that's going to stick with me, Kate is you said, “Our words carry so much power,” and I think about our conversation today out just vibes in the room and how that shifts with the energy that we bring to the room, all of these subtle undercurrent conversations that we're having, and then how a sort of energy vibe becomes established. And how powerful even these really little tiny things we do are. We had this conversation around inclusive language and you gave so many great details and specifics around what that means and how we can make little, small alterations to some of these things that are just baked into us because of our culture and the words that we hear, phrasing and things that we hear, that we're just unaware of the impact of things. Just by paying attention and those little subtle details of things and coming at things with an open heart, regardless of how we might stumble, or mess things up, how much of a difference that can make because our words, though carry so much power. KATE: Yeah. And the thing you just said about having an open heart is truly how you can put any of this into action, how you can remain open to learning about authenticity, or what it feels like to not fall into a trap of perfectionism, or how to speak, or write, or interact more inclusively with other human beings. I feel like being open, being openminded, being open-hearted, whatever it is, is just really a superpower on its own. Remaining open and vulnerable in today's world is hard work. It does not come naturally to so many people, especially when you're dealing with your own traumas and your own individual interactions and maybe being forced into spaces where you don't feel safe. To remain open is such a tool for making other people feel cared for. So if that's the goal, I would say just being open is truly your superpower. JOHN: I think that's the quote I'm going to take with me: being open is the key to making people feel cared for. KATE: Yes. I love that. ARTY: Well, thank you for joining us on the show, Kate. It's been a pleasure to have you here. KATE: Thank you so much. This has been just the energy boost I needed. Special Guest: Kate Marshall.

Dr. Leah Gordon is a naturopathic and functional medicine doctor who specializes in root-cause women's hormonal health, low libido, preconception, and fertility care. She is the owner of Womanhood Wellness and Tribe Medicine, she is a founding medical advisor for Needed, a pregnancy-focused nutrition company, and a passionate speaker and educator. Dr. Leah is also a mama-to-be, after navigating infertility with her husband for almost 7 years. Dr. Leah is committed to guiding, educating, and inspiring women along their womanhood journeys so that they can be the best version of themselves, and they can cause a ripple effect of healing for their children, future children, families, and communities. Dr. Leah joined us to chat about male fertility and we covered the following topics: 0:00 Introductions 1:00 How big is this issue? 10% of infertility is solely due to male factors 35% of infertility is due to both male and female factors 4:00 What are the factors involved in male fertility? Brain Issues (pituitary and hypothalamic issues) Anatomical Issues (spermatic cord, vein and blood flow issues) Sperm and Semen Issues (morphology, count, motility) General Health Issues (nutrient deficiencies, obesity, etc) 7:00 What do we know about natural interventions for male fertility and their success rates? Depending on the root cause, interventions could include physical medicine, surgery, nutrition, lifestyle changes and more. We review the specifics in the rest of the video. 12:00 Lifestyle Medicine in Fertility Sleep Stress Testosterone Fat 15:00 Nutrition for Fertility Avoid / Minimize Alcohol Smoking Plants, proteins and healthful diet 20:00 Oxidative Stress What does it mean and what can we do about it? 21:00 Semen Analysis Comprehensive profile What morphology, motility, count and DNA fragmentation mean for you and your fertility. 25:00 Herbs & Nutrients for Improving Semen Markers Ashwagandha Astragalus B vitamins Minerals like selenium and zinc 26:00 Should You Do a Sperm Analysis at Home? If you do, use Legacy and don't ejaculate for 3 days before collecting. You can have your doctor order this for you, too. 30:00 Fertility is a Reflection of Whole Person Health 31:00 How a Doctor Can Help You With This Food plans that give you the nutrients you need in fun-to-eat recipes. LEARN MORE ABOUT DR. LEAH & HER PROGRAMS www.drleahgordon.com www.instagram.com/drleahgordon/ www.womanhoodwellness.com/moonmedicine use the code DrKate for a discount! LEARN MORE ABOUT DR. KATE It is Dr. Kate's greatest joy to help others feel fully alive and healthy in their bodies, souls, and relationships. You can learn more about her at www.DoctorKateHenry.com https://drkatehenry.campsite.bio/ https://www.facebook.com/doctorkatehenry/ https://www.instagram.com/dr.katehenry/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/drkatehenry/ https://www.doctorkatehenry.com/blog https://www.pinterest.com/drkatehenry/ https://twitter.com/DrKateHenry1 https://www.tumblr.com/blog/doctorkatehenry https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNh_I-FlfB0n99dqT3vSbog/ https://www.iherb.com/me/DrKateHenry --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/drkatehenry/message

Today I'm speaking with Kate Donohue from Dynamic Parenting about the intersection of giftedness and autism. In the episode, we talk about highly and profoundly gifted children, what autism looks like in gifted children, the intersection of giftedness and autism, and what we need to look out for. Kate has been working in the disability sector for more than 20 years. She has been a DIR Floortime therapist, kindergarten and schoolteacher, service leader mentor, support worker, and workshop presenter. Kate's learning journey really began when she became a parent to 2 neurodivergent girls. Hit play and let's get started! Memorable Quotes “They need to be able to comprehend our children. Some people just cannot comprehend how diverse our kids are because the giftedness skews all of the disability. So, the disabilities don't present the way they're doing the textbooks.  .. the clinician needs to have an understanding of the interplay between the disability and the giftedness and sometimes multiple disabilities and giftedness. So, it's this really unique profile.” - Kate “It's not about the behaviours on the outside. It's not about somebody who looks autistic or doesn't look autistic. It's about what the gaps in development are, or what their sensory system is doing, what they need to know to understand other people, and then supporting them to get the supports that they need.” – Kate “While they're concentrating so hard on fitting in and understanding others and not making mistakes and not being found out and not being ridiculed. There's so much anxiety going on. It's really hard for them to learn. And it's really hard to have joy and freedom and expression and to become that authentic version of themselves. So masking does have a high cost to people who do mask.” - Kate Resources Dynamic Parenting Subscribe & Review If you enjoyed this episode and it inspired you in some way, I'd love to hear about your biggest takeaway in the comments. For more episodes, you can subscribe and to help others find our podcast please leave a review. You can find show notes and more resources at www.ourgiftedkids.com See you in the same place next week. Connect Connect with me on LinkedIn Instagram & Facebook!

Show Notes If you enjoy learning from Sara and me, consider bringing our Raise Thriving Kids live workshop to your community or participating in our online course. Join my PATREON squad for special perks, including bonus podcast episodes, exclusive posts, and resources.  Subscribe for resources and ideas for happier, more connected families.  This is an encore presentation of one of my favorite episodes. Enjoy! This episode is a live recording of my chat with Sara Kuljis about some of our favorite year-end reflection activities. Joining Sara and me for this episode is Kate Rader, one of the participants from our Raise Thriving Kids Workshop. Kate is a stay-at-home mom to 3 adventure-seeking and fun-loving kiddos, Lauren and Caroline, identical twins who are 13 and Jack, age 10, wife to her college sweetheart Jeff and curious lover of books, podcasts, and conversations about intentional parenting and living. Here's what Kate had to say about our workshop: "It was just so wonderful to be in a room with people who care enough to be intentional about the choices they're making for their families and what they want for their families because it's a work in progress--and we're all working together." Big Ideas In addition to parenting books, podcasts, and coaching, workshops are a great resource for parents. Just as most people need continual training and education in their careers, parents can also take the time to learn and connect with others in order to feel invigorated. It is helpful to share what is working and to discuss best practices for strengthening family bonds. We talk a lot about the importance of self-care and modeling a balanced life for our kids. Today we discuss the ideas I shared in my recent post, 5 Simple Year-End Reflections: Create a Reverse Bucket List. Look back over your life and make a list of the cool things you've already done. 100 Family Memories Brainstorm and make a list of what happened in your family this year. Pick a Quote of the Year Find a quote that resonates with you, or something motivational, looking back or looking ahead, a quote you want to live by. Select One Word that you want to guide you in the new year Be authentic and make it a word that is uniquely yours. Remember your Favorite Books or resources from the past year Take time to let the new things that you have learned (in books, podcasts, workshops) to percolate and apply the concepts or practices to your life. Pick one or two of these ideas that resonate with you. You can do an activity on your own or engage the whole family. Make the delivery of the idea fun and light. Allow people to be silly. Getting the family together over the holidays, expressing gratitude, and setting intentions together are my favorite ways to bring in the new year. Quotes Sara: "Sometimes parenting intentionally feels counter-cultural. When we're swimming upstream, to have fishies to swim with is so confidence building. It's reassuring, it's empowering. I've loved all the parents we have gotten to work with through this project because it has fueled me." Kate: "The regular accountability is equally as important to me as the one-day workshop. Whether it's via podcasts, recorded conversations, or live conversations, getting together at Starbucks, or whatever it might be, that's really beneficial in maintaining the kind of wonderful feelings that we got coming out of the workshop." Kate: "If we're going to develop a true family culture, we need to be intentional about spending time together as a family. And that time is harder and harder to come by." Kate: "Just being together, away, experiencing some new adventures has been a neat way for us to firm up our family culture and values and make memories together. That's been a key take away for me." Kate: "It's not about those grand gestures. It's about the thoughtful, meaningful moments where people take the time to appreciate their relationships." Audrey: "Even if you're not a person who gives affirmations, I really don't think there's a person in this world who wouldn't mind getting a nice note saying something that someone likes about them." Audrey: "Sometimes parents start thinking that their relationship with their child is supposed to be like a normal, reciprocal relationship. Expecting that you pour into this child and they're going to pour back to you, is not how parenting works. However, I'm seeing that once they're adults you may get more of the reciprocity than when they were kids. I get very filled up now by my adult children when they give me affirmations or send me a nice message--it's really great." Audrey: "You keep encouraging, even if you don't think it means something because I think it really is landing somewhere." Audrey: "Another activity could be taking a year's worth of fun texts, cards, and nice messages and putting them somewhere like in a scrapbook just as a great boost." Sara: "I love the idea of sitting down with the whole family and saying, 'let's look way back' because there is a chance that something that I didn't consider very bucket-y might have been really significant to my kids. I think it will remind us that it has been a rich life of experiences." Audrey: "I would challenge you to focus on yourself for your own reverse bucket list. Sometimes it's good to just think about for your own self-awareness and self-worth and knowing that you're enough just the way you are. I would suggest that the bucket list idea is more of a personal thing because it is recognizing the goals you've already achieved and the cool things that you've done, whereas the 100 Family Memories would be the things you're grateful for." Audrey: "The goal is to try to remember (as many as) 100 things so you get down to some of the minutiae and those are some of the funny, random, individual things that happened. It's been a really fun practice." Kate: "I think when you allow each family member to share their treasured memories from the year, it gives us insight into their personalities and their level of value and priorities, as well." Audrey: "I like spending time at the end of the year, really thinking through what my one word is, thinking about what was good this year and what is it that I want to take into the new year and feel more of, or do more of--I love the process." Audrey: "Determine the kind of person you want to be in the next year. Identify the characteristics of that best self. When you're being your best self, what does that look like? It has guided me a lot because once I pick a word, I then seek out resources and ideas to help me live that word better." Kate: "It's a neat way to put the focus on how you're going to spend your time, your energy, your reading, and research--all that good stuff. When it is meaningful, it really does carry you through the year and it gives purpose to how you're spending your time." Audrey: "It really hit me that my best contribution to my family, to the world, comes when I focus and take the time to do some research, reading, writing, thoughtful time, which is not a normal part of life anymore. You have to actually build in focus." Audrey: "There are so many new ideas and things you can do, but to really move the needle, all you need to do is just one. I am challenging myself this year to slow down on the consumption of new information and instead get out the books I've read, look at my highlights and just recap." Related Posts & Podcasts 5 Simple Year-End Reflection Activities Learning to Enjoy the Little Things 100 Family Memories #oneword My One Word for 2019: Focus 15 Books for a Happier, More Purposeful Life Stop & Celebrate Ep. 68 12 Parenting Tips for Happier, More Connected Families Ep. 105 Live Above the Noise with Rob Reiher Resources Present Over Perfect: Leaving Behind Frantic for a Simpler, More Soulful Way of Living by Shauna Niequist How to Raise An Adult: Break Free of the Overparenting Trap and Prepare Your Kid for Success by Julie Lythcott-Haims One Thousand Gifts: A Dare to Live Fully Right Where You Are by Ann Voskamp Finding Fred Podcast  

What can startup founders learn from the marketing strategies of high growth, silicon valley tech companies? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Traction Hero founder Kate Walling talks about her experience helping VC-backed tech startups develop marketing and business strategies, and the specific things she recommends they focus on to achieve exponential growth. Highlights from my conversation with Kate include: Kate advises early stage tech companies on their marketing and business growth strategies. When she starts working with a new company, the first thing Kate looks at is the product and business model to determine whether there are opportunities to use product-led growth. After that, she evaluates the company's brand and positioning within the industry, and then focused on the sales team. One strategy that Kate has seen several companies use successfully to drive growth is community, and specifically building a community of their customers, users and fans and allowing that community to mostly self-moderate. To be successful, Kate says marketers need to be a part of the larger corporate strategy conversations around what the product is, how it will be positioned, what the tech stack is, and how sales will go to market. Another effective way to raise your brand profile is to work with industry influencers. Kate says that these do not always have to be paid relationships, and that its important for your marketing team to be aggressive in building relationships. If you have a small budget, one of the best ways to gain early traction as a founder is through a personal email newsletter. This is a strategy employed by many of the accelerators. Send it to friends, family, former colleagues, etc., but NOT clients, and share your journey as a startup founder. You can also use this to ask your audience for help and introductions. PR is another good way to get the word out at a low cost. While you can always hire a PR agency, there are plenty of opportunities for you to directly pitch yourself to local media, and you can subscribe to HARO and respond to those pitches at no cost. Tools like Canva are handy for making marketing collateral that looks like it was created by a designer but really uses templates to look professionally made. Kate's advice to founders is not to try and take on too many things. Find a few channels and platforms that are a good fit with your audience, do them well, test and iterate. Resources from this episode: Visit Kate's personal website Check out the Traction Hero site Email kate at kate[at]katewalling.com Following Kate on Twitter @katewalling Listen to the podcast to get specific strategies you can use as a startup founder (whether you have a big budget or a small one) to hit your growth goals. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host Kathleen Booth and today my guest is Kate Walling, who's the founder and CEO of traction hero. Welcome Kate. Kate Walling (Guest): Hello Kathleen. I love your podcast. Kate and Kathleen recording this episode. Kathleen: Thank you. I'm excited to have you here. I am going to do a little bit of an announcement for my listeners before we dig in. Um, if you have listened to my last few episodes, you might've heard this, but it's late March, the coronavirus pandemic is happening. We are recording on Zoom and Zoom is having some bandwidth issues. So just saying, if you're listening, be patient with us. If the audio gets a little funky from time to time, we're going to do our best and hope that Zoom holds up for us as we go. But, these are interesting times we're living in. Lots of people working remotely, lots of people using video conferencing software. So it is what it is. But with that said, welcome Kate. Can you please tell my listeners a little bit about yourself and Traction Hero? About Kate Walling and Traction Hero Kate: Absolutely. So let me try to make this the short version of the story. I've been an entrepreneur since a really young age. I started my first startup at 23, which was a consumer facing startup. I've kind of been an entrepreneur since then, although I've had a corporate stint. I'm in the middle because at one point I realized that being an entrepreneur from a young age means that you don't understand corporate structure and you just hit some walls because you have a lack of understanding. So I've also worked in a public tech company here in Silicon Valley and now I'm back with Traction Hero, which is a marketing agency for startup companies where right now we provide a lot of tech companies with on demand services just as they need it. So basically they can email with a quick project they need done and we turn it around in a couple of hours. So it's really good for companies that have large budgets, but not enough team. Basically there's a lot of those. And then we're also slowly building out services that are really focused on the deliverable so that startups can say, "I need a market research study done" or "I need a new identity." Everything is focused toward what needs to happen to get that done. So as you know, when you're doing a lot of projects, you've got to have a writer, a designer, a printer, all these different people, and it's very stressful for marketers. There's not really been a solution so far where they can just cross that thing off the list and know that the whole thing is getting done. So that's what we're working toward, is really solutions that help marketers get stuff done as they need it.  Kathleen: I love that you personally have been a startup founder and that you've done a lot of work with startup founders because I'm personally passionate about that. I have been a business owner. I've started a couple of different businesses. Having walked in the shoes of the founder, I think you described it so well where there's so many things that need to get done. And that's just from a marketing standpoint, right? You're wearing all the hats when you're in a startup. You could be the owner, the chief salesperson and the marketer as well as other things. And in those early days it can be really hard to zero in on, what are the most important things I should be doing in order to gain traction? That is one of the reasons, FYI, that I love your company name. You stay focused without falling victim to shiny object syndrome or you know, working so much in the business and not on the business, et cetera. It's a challenging, challenging time. Kate: It is. And I think, you know, marketing's been already challenging for a number of years because the MarTech stack keeps getting larger and, and Silicon Valley, the budgets keep getting larger, but your team size doesn't. But marketing is getting more and more responsibility for profit and loss. So there's a lot of pressure and I think what I hear from clients is, what you're saying, is that this was a different style with Traction Hero. And that's because I've personally been through the technology accelerator programs. I am on my fourth startup. I really know what it's like. The interesting thing is that I started this agency model in Seattle. I built an agency in Seattle before I came down to Mountainview California and the model works so well, so it's called scrappy face and it was scrappy, right? And we just went in and we helped these funded tech companies and we just moved as fast as we could. And we had a great team. I closed the agency because I went through a divorce and growing a company really quickly in the middle of a divorce in a city that was always raining is brutal to say the least. But the model was so interesting and when I went into corporate tech, what I realized is that I kind of thought their needs would be different. What I saw was just maybe limited, but it really wasn't, it was pretty much the same concerns of "I've got money, I don't have enough people to spend it." You know, "I don't have enough hands." And then marketing has gotten so specialized that you can't possibly hire enough people to do all these things well, like they can't be experts at everything. So, you know, I'm a big proponent now of having smaller marketing teams, but knowing how to get more done quickly and having whatever workforce you need, that's really fluid. Kathleen: I love that.  should take a step back because this topic, when you talk about startups, I feel like it's a Rorschach test because the word "startup" can mean a lot of things to a lot of different people. And for some people, they hear "startup" and they think little, you know, two or three person company. And yes, of course every startup has to start somewhere. But then there are startups that are incredibly well funded, VC funded, that go from being one or two people to 20 to 30 people within a span of a month. When I think the conversation we're having, it's more around that high growth startup, not that little company that's gonna slog along for five years. We're talking about, you know, startups that have a lot of potential that need to move fast. I think that's really key here. That's the experience I've had working in startups, is that it's all about speed, especially if you're looking for investment. Because as soon as you bring on investors, there are high expectations. There are benchmarks you have to hit. There are thresholds that you need to get to. And all of that needs to happen really quickly. And you're right, you know, you couldn't possibly hire enough people to do that and you can't have a team that includes the world's best in everything, right? Because you'd need to segment out each little thing you do and hire a different person for it. So what's the best way to move ahead? And the other element of that that, I think, is so interesting is this need to balance brand with demand generation because those are two really important components. And especially if you're in a high growth startup, you absolutely need demand generation. There is no company that doesn't, but brand is really important these days. How early stage startups can quickly gain traction Kate: So like, yeah, how do you do all the things? It's so hard and I mean, you bring up a great point first. Defining "startup" is important. I think right now I do tend to concentrate on the tech startups that are scaling and have money. I also tend to help entrepreneurs that are somehow very well resourced and there's an opportunity that needs to move quickly. Those were the fun ones. That can be anywhere. It's like there's been a regulatory or legal change and so it's presented this opportunity and you've got to go fast to take advantage of that opportunity. So that looks different different ways, but it's typically those two categories in terms of entrepreneurs who are working on a smaller project or evolving it. There's so many tools now that they can use that would save them so much money that I think just having that right tool stack is a better situation. But back to your question about balancing brand and demand gen. It's super hard and I think what I used to do is go month by month, quarter by quarter in my corporate role and say "What are the business objectives here? And so what does what makes the most sense?" So if all of a sudden the sales team is growing from 40 to 90, right? I've got to get the demand gen up and going. I've got to get tools in place to deal with that. And that evolves into other things like what type of sellers are they? How are these tools going to work together? Whereas if the brand is newer or there's been a change in the industry or there's some kind of potential in terms of content or positioning, you go on the brand side. I think you just have to kind of reevaluate it every several weeks when you're, when you're at scale, when you're trying to work with scale. Kathleen: Yeah. It's funny that you say that because I think the last month or two have been the best example of why it's important to reevaluate every few weeks because I can speak for myself. I had a beautiful 90 day marketing strategy that I finished at the end of January. I'm a big believer in planning in quarters and adjusting in months. And so I had the strategy put together and I was starting along my merry way, implementing my strategy and then coronavirus hit and blew it all up. I feel like I, I, you know, I want to do air quotes, "go into work every week." You know, I'm not going anywhere. I'm working out of my house right now. And the priority is constantly changing based on the current fire. And I say that not meaning that like, the house is on fire and the company's in jeopardy. That's not our case. In fact, oddly we have an increase in demand because of what our product does. But, it's about pivoting and shifting and recognizing now it's all about remote work and you know, that sort of thing. And that's different than what I had planned out, but when things are moving fast, you gotta be able to go with it. Kate: You do. And I think, you know, in terms of the virus, it's the emotional roller coaster for us personally. It's the same with business. And I think it's that way with most parts of businesses, right? It's like, "Oh, I don't know if I have enough toilet paper. I don't know if I have enough this or the National Guard is moving in," you know? So it's like, every day, assessing where things are and what your needs are. And I'm seeing that with my clients. The first week was about "What should we be doing? Should we do a campaign?" So we do an email and alert people of what services we're changing. Now it's moved to, "Okay, competitively, what do we need to do? What's going on in the industry? What's the overall campaign, you know, with our overall strategy here?" And that strategy ends up being not just marketing, that's the whole business offering. We need to move products. But marketing from my observation right now, which is, you know, limited in the grand scheme of things, marketing is driving some of those business questions, right? Because you can't go to a marketer right now and say, "I need you to do something about this virus." The marketer has to say, "Well wait, what are we, what are we offering here?" You can't just throw together some kind of campaign or ad without meaning. I mean, this is not a, um, you know, "throw a graphic on it" type of problem. How do VC-backed startups approach marketing? Kathleen: Yeah, absolutely. So let's put the pandemic aside for a minute because I feel like we could have an entire episode on that and I may need to do that at some point soon. My curiosity has been peaked by what you said about how you tend to work with these well-resourced, need-to-move quickly, but potentially bandwidth-constrained companies. I think what is really interesting about that is that a lot of marketers see those kinds of companies that do grow really fast and they think, "What are they doing? What is the secret sauce? What's happening behind the scenes that's enabling them to go so quickly?" Maybe I'm wrong, but I suspect it's not that they're just throwing money at the problem. It has to be more of, yes, you need money, but what are you going to do with that money that supports a really high growth kind of scenario? So maybe you could talk a little bit about that and pull back the curtain on, if somebody does come to you and say, you know, we just got VC funding, we've got to triple the size of this company in a year. We've got the budget to do it. As a marketer, what kinds of things are you doing and looking at for them? Kate: The first thing I look at is, is there anything in their model that should be evaluated overall for marketing in terms of distribution or influence? For scalability, like you said, it's demand gen and brand. However, for a lot of things it's, is there something that needs to be built into the product from a marketing positioning standpoint or differentiation to make sure that that scale can happen with the brand and demand gen tools? That's one of my favorite parts and that's where your puzzles come in. So if you're a SaaS company, do you need to be offering some kind of certification program because you need more people using the software? What are the different channels? How is that working? I think getting a grasp on, is there something from a business model perspective that needs to happen? The other thing is, a lot of companies at that point have some juggernauts, right? Like, we're seeing churn is hitting here and it's too high, or we're seeing these little scenarios happen with customers, or our lifetime value is off. So we start trying to troubleshoot some of those things so that, that first step is really about marketing and the product and the operations of the business, and then also what needs to be worked out before you scale. There are usually some major learnings there. Once those kinks have been ironed out, we start looking at where are we positioned in the industry? Where is brand awareness? And then what is the plan with the sales team? So if you've got two sellers and you're going to hire maybe one more, that's a pretty basic stack because you don't want to build anything too complicated until you understand, are these relationship-based sellers, are these more tech savvy sellers? There's a difference in the tools required. So you can do something more basic in the meantime, just getting them basic collateral, making sure they have that stuff on the brand side. You start wanting to do more PR, more on positioning and really claiming your spot in the industry landscape. Then, as your sales team picks up, so when you start getting to like 20, 40, 50 up and up sellers, you're looking at a lot more sophisticated systems. You're usually looking at a change of how sales works. So if you have inside sales reps, how are they working, how are they using your marketing software? You get into really complex software decisions, and that's usually driven by marketing. How can startups use product-led growth? Kathleen: There's so much there. I have so many questions I want to ask you. Let's go back to one of the first things you said, which is that you actually begin in many cases by looking at product. So it sounds like what you're talking about is product led growth, and really going in and looking at what are the opportunities to bake something in -- the product that we have that can itself be a growth driver. I would love it if you could just talk a little bit more about that. Kate: It's both from a positioning standpoint, and distribution comes up. That comes up with SaaS companies a lot. And positioning can come up with B2C, right, of like what is this particular opportunity here? With direct to consumer you see it because you'll see, like, consumer products that are extremely well designed or they're really hip or something like that. So that's where you'll see that brand move play in really big. And, and usually with D2C, that's part of the initial product development. But sometimes that can come in as like, how do we do that? Sometimes it can be, with B2C, how do we build a community around the product, right? So some companies are doing a really good job of using Facebook groups. I think Facebook groups are amazing for marketers right now of, we're going to liberate our whole community and let them build with one another. But what are the rules of that? So I think there's just a lot there in terms of B2C, it depends. If it's a commodity-based business, it's harder. A lot harder, right? You're looking at, how do we feel different to the buyer? How do we provide a different experience? If we're not really offering something different, can we deliver it different? Is there really strong brand value that can go throughout the whole company and how would that be protected? So it really has a lot of different shapes. Think of channel partners or technology partners who are taking our API and installing it. But is there something more? Is there a way to even scale it bigger than that? Right? Like get like a whole group of individuals selling this thing for you. So I think it's really out of the box type thinking. And generally at this point, you know, the startup's been going for awhile, they've had some success, they're ready to, you know, commit, and they're ready to scale. They're leaning that way. So it's a really good time to do this work. How marketers can play a role in the broader business strategy? Kathleen: You're coming in as a marketing advisor. At the same time though, it goes to the core of the business strategy. It's not just a marketing strategy. If you're talking about putting an evangelist program in place or changing elements of the product or building a certification program, some of these are business strategies. So how do you navigate that conversation? Because I think often marketers are really challenged with, we're really comfortable staying in our marketing lane. But a lot of the times, when we get out of that lane -- and sometimes it manifests as, you know, we're starting to make recommendations about sales software, other times it's like the things you're talking about that can get rocky if you don't do it right -- how do you approach that? Kate: Yeah, that's a great statement. It's so true with this early stage stuff that I'm talking about. It's typically before a startup has hired a CFO or a senior level marketer. And so you're working directly with the CEO and they have some marketing resources. They'll have a small agency, they'll have a couple freelancers, right? Part of their problem is that they don't know who to hire. And most of the time what I tell them is you can't make that hiring decision yet. We don't know what the marketing is, so we don't know what type of marketer to hire, you know? So I'm a huge proponent of fractional CMOs because I think it's just too early and you don't want to get the wrong person. There's a lot at stake. And I think a lot of startups at that base, they've got revenue coming in, hire a CMO to come in four hours a week and figure this out slowly. And who realizes that you're going to hire for that position when you know what the direction is? So that's more early stage. And the company usually has maybe five to 10 employees, but marketing's not built out yet at all. Later on is where you get really more tricky. You've got someone in charge of sales and they have a particular way that they're hiring. Then as a marketer, you're supposed to bring in demand gen, right? And the demand gen you need to bring in is a different skillset than the sellers have. And the sellers were not aware of the software that you have to do. In my corporate role, it was a rollout plan. I started with HubSpot and got people used to this idea, this is what's going on and why. Then I moved into Marketo, which is super hard. Kathleen: I just went in the opposite direction. I went from a company with Marketo to a company with HubSpot and I'm like, "Thank God. It's so much easier." Kate: And then with Marketo, the sales team was growing. We had to do much more sophisticated type rules and stuff too, because all of a sudden you can have a sales team and you start bringing in all these leads and a sales team does not care. They don't care. And they're not gonna answer them. And you've got a cultural problem of you have to educate them toward how do you deal with these leads, what it means, their job and that it is, and you have to have support from the management team that this is going to be required. There's a whole lot and it just really depends on who you're working with and what their background is. You have to take it one step, one day at a time. So I think it just depends on the team. It depends on where people are. You have to be pretty fluid marketer. You have to be able to say, "This is what I need and it's going to be a process and I'm going to have to get buy in. And so how do I do that?" So you have to be patient. Kathleen: I think you raised something really important, which is, when you're coming into the job, you're at an advantage because you're working with a CEO. But just one thing I've learned is that when you, when you're in those hiring conversations, you have to, you have to have a conversation about that. I might be making some recommendations that are outside of what you might think of as marketing. How are you going to feel about that? Are you open to it? Are you willing to keep an open mind? You know, really, really figuring out that the personality type of the founder, the CEO, and whether they're willing to listen and, and consider other things I think is so important at that stage of a company. Kate: Critical. Specific strategies that startups can use to drive exponential growth Kathleen: Moving onto something else. You said you started talking about community and I love that topic. I could talk about it forever. And I guess this is, this is part of a bigger question I have, which is, I'd love it if you could share some examples of what you have seen work really well to fuel fast growth in some of the companies you've worked with. And maybe we could start with community because I came from a company a few jobs ago where we built a very large community and it was huge for us and it was a Facebook community. Through that experience I became really passionate about that. So that's just one example but, but there may be others. So, specific things that you have seen really deliver for the companies you've worked with. Kate: It's different for B2B and B2C. So I'll start with B2C because it's the easy, fun one. What I'm seeing right now that I love are these Facebook groups around certain products. This is not a client of mine, but it's actually a product I use. There was, what's it called, the meal delivery company that I was using for awhile when I had really busy days. It was all plant-based food and then they had this Facebook group and you could join it and people were just sitting there and they let people post whatever they want. They can sit there and post like "I really hate this smoothie. How am I going to get through this or am I supposed to do this later or not?" And it's super interesting to watch how that worked because the community moderated the community members for the brand. Brilliant. People will say, you know, "I did lose weight, I did not lose weight. This is really more about health." And so you start seeing these advocates come up and then they would use those advocates for their Instagram stories and other things. So that organic way of building a community that moderates itself is really interesting. Now initially, you have those questions about when do we step in and when do we not, and how do we moderate? I think if you can get by with moderating lightly, but you know, the feel of the brand is so positive, right? So that's a brand value that you have less of those issues but they're going to come up. But I think you have to have a very careful strategy about how to moderate that. The other thing that people are using a lot on B2B is obviously these micro influencers. There's some startups paying a lot of money for this and it's all over the place. Traction on that sort of slowed down the end of last year and now I'm starting to see clients pick back up on interest in that because everybody's at home and online, right? So we're starting to feel like there's opportunity there. I'd say if you can build your own organic community, that would be ideal, right? If you can't, you can use these micro influencers and that's great content as well. I talked to someone last week and their product's working and they're sold out, and they've gotten all this influencer marketing and that helped. But then all of a sudden years later, they don't have brand values. And so when you're needing to do more, you're needing to build content, you're needing to build demand and you're needing to build, you know, other parts of marketing, if you don't have those brand values built out, then all of a sudden you're like, well, who are we? We were using everyone else for the voice. So you'll run into that for B2B. It's true here. I think some of this comes to hiring. So what I've seen work really well is that you become friends with all the influencers in the industry and you sponsor their podcast and you appear on their podcasts and you go to their events and you just kind of make sure the team knows who the influencers are. And then you do everything you can to get involved with people at every level. You'll have local events and you'll bring the people in that you know, in that city and have them share their stories. And so it's a constant kind of industry networking. I've seen that work really, really well on the B2B side. But it's definitely different. Kathleen: It's so interesting that you say that because I've seen that work really well too, where people have formed strategic relationships with industry influencers and sometimes, not paid as you say. It doesn't always have to be paid. It could just be really showering them with love in the form of, you know, having them on your podcast or going on theirs or commenting and sharing and making introductions. I worked for a marketing agency for awhile and they did this exact thing and their way of forming those relationships was by offering to make personal branding websites for influencers. That was a great way to get to know them. Then you've done them a favor. So there are a lot of different ways that that that can be done. I think that's really smart. How to hit big growth goals on a small budget Kathleen: You work with well-resourced companies that are able to do a lot of these things. Any lessons learned or suggestions for companies that don't have those giant budgets? What are some things they can do in the early days? Kate: Oh yeah. I love the scrappy brands and helping startup founders. So I advise a lot of startup companies. I love this part of the work cause I obviously identify with it a lot. Being an entrepreneur for so long, I think, you know, when founders are trying to grow a brand unlimited budget, one thing I always bring up is never forget about email, because if you create an email list of your friends and family and colleagues and anyone that you meet with, those people become very loyal to your process. If you share with them where you are and what you're going through and what you need help with, they will help. It will absolutely help. I've seen that be really successful. Now your tone has to be right because nobody owes you anything and you want to be entertaining and kind of make them feel a part of it. And that's part of the email structure, right? Of like, "Here's what's happening and you know, these exciting things are happening, these challenges are happening. Here's how you can help." That is the basic format that does incredibly well. And that is one of the main marketing tricks that comes out of the Silicon Valley tech accelerators. They have all their founders do a weekly email and it works. I, on my own, I've had open rates of like 90% or higher, very high. Kathleen: I want to talk about that for a second because I'm fascinated by this. I also believe strongly in email. I also think that people think of email as this old, tired, dead strategy, but there's some really interesting things being done in the world of email right now. So you're talking about founders doing a weekly email. Can you peel the layers of that back a little bit for me? What does that look like? Who does it go to? Kate: Sure. So this is not client facing or customer facing. My personal list is maybe 200 people and it's my closest friends, my family members, colleagues I've worked with for years, people that I've met with on this journey. So it's people that know what you're up to and what you're striving for basically. But not clients. Clients and customers would get something different. They don't need to understand the process. So that email list is specific for friends and family colleagues. And what you do is, every time you send, you add more people that you've met along the way. I usually start it with like "Hi friends" or something like that. And then I usually say something seasonal about what's happening in the world and that I'm thinking about them because I am. All these people, they're cheering you on. And then I'll typically say, if you're new to the list, here's a link to the previous email, right? So that there's some sort of context in there drawn into the story correctly. And then I'll put some kind of update about where I am or what challenges are happening. And it's usually interesting stuff because when you're building a business, you hit all kinds of things in the world that are happening. So for example, with Traction Hero, there've been changes in California privacy law, changes in California employment law that have really changed the model. And that stuff is interesting. If you're not in it all day long, it's pretty interesting. So share the challenges you have. And then I usually say, "Here's the ways you can help. So if you just open your social accounts, we're now on Instagram. Would love if you would follow," and people will, they'll do it. Or "If you happen to know a friend who knows anything about X, Y, or Z, would you mind connecting me?" They will. This technique is straight from accelerator programs and it is a good one. Kathleen: Do you add these people to the list or do you ask them if they want to opt in? How does that work? Kate: I add them. I often will mention it to them. Like, "I'm going to add you to my newsletter. Let me know if it's okay." You're not doing it for a business so the rules are different. This is actually a question I'm curious to know. I mean I still send, so my recommendation is, I send it through MailChimp, their most basic template. And the reason why is people can unsubscribe. It does hurt your feelings a little bit more when someone does that you know. It's also interesting because if sometimes there'll be like a vendor or somebody and if they offer, I've actually had this happen, someone unsubscribed and I was like, then you're not interested enough in my story for me to pay you. Kathleen: Yeah. Right. Kate: Like, if you're not interested enough in this email because this is just basically what's happening with my business, if you're not interested in that, then I mean, I don't think that we'd be a good fit in terms of working together. I mean, I'm not bothering you. It's like once every six months, I mean slow, but I used to try to do them once a month. MailChimp's most basic template is perfect. And just text. I mean I throw in, maybe, you know, if I done a new logo design or something, throw it in. But keep it pretty simple. And that way people can unsubscribe. Kathleen: I'm a big fan of not overly designing emails. I mean these days, most people have the images in their emails turned off by default. And so if you've got a lot of design in there, it just doesn't get seen half the time anyway. And it looks crappy to have a lot of those image boxes. Like, "Turn your image on," you know, it just doesn't look good. So simpler is better all around with email in my opinion. Kate: Yeah, I know, I totally agree. And that MailChimp basic template's nice. The fonts big, it works well on mobile. It's, it's a nice one. These emails still take, I'm going to say it like if I'm fast, two hours. They still take time. You don't want to bother anybody and you want it to be entertaining and you want it to be, you know, uplifting, even if you're talking about your challenges. The most important thing is tone. I've seen some of these founder emails and if you use the wrong tone, people are like, "No thanks." Kathleen: So what is the right tone? Kate: I think it's friendly and I think it's engaging. You know, I don't think it's like, "Hi friends, hope you're enjoying this day. Please like my Facebook page, please sign up, please send me people who should be customers." It's not about a million asks. People have a lot going on in their lives. It's more of like, "Here's what's going on with building this startup right now. Here's what I'm trying to do. Here are the challenges I'm having. And that's interesting to people, because a lot of people haven't gone through it or want to go through it. And you know, entrepreneurship is never a straight line at all.  Kathleen: I love that idea. I mean, that's something that really any founder in any industry can do. I think for some it's going to put them in a place of discomfort because a lot of the founders I've met don't like talking about themselves that much, which is kind of funny because you're going to have to at some point as a founder.  But I think that's neat because that's something you can do that doesn't take really any money, that just takes your time. Kate: I'd say founders who have marketing backgrounds definitely have a hand up on this one. In tech accelerators, what would happen is I would send in mine first and then whoever in my batch would typically take mine and copy it. So people need examples of this. Email me and I'll send you one of my past ones because it does help to see some kind of, you know, formula that's worked for people and it's so much easier for marketers. Kathleen: I love that. So maybe we'll put Kate's email in the show notes and you can email her and say, Hey, I need your newsletter so you can see what it looks like. So you had, you said you had some other things to be on that and I took you on a tangent with that one.  Kate: So other things on my list. Definitely write industry articles on LinkedIn so that you're showing industry expertise and what you're learning. I think that's very important just to start showing industry expertise and that you're connected to the industry. The other thing I'll say is look for media stories where you might fit in and ping the journalists. So a quick side story, do we have time for that? Kathleen: Yeah, go for it. Kate: When I started my Seattle agency, I had just been through this issue of what's called domain front running, which is when you go in and you're buying a domain and before you can hit checkout, someone takes it from you. So they're capturing it on the domain register thing. Well, King Five, the big news station in Seattle ran a story about how these guys were making all this money on domain names and how it was such an innovative business. Well, I got the journalist name and I sent them an email and I said, "I totally disagree with you. This is really bad for entrepreneurs. It's, you know, it's not right. There's some negative things happening that are just unfair." So they came to the office and filmed me talking about the story about how someone stole my domain name and then sold it back to me for a lot more money than if I'd just been able to push the button. And that was a great opportunity. I've had a lot of luck. You know, my first startup was around printing cookbooks and I had a lot of luck just calling local news stations and cooking on air. Free PR. I've gotten a lot of clients placed, um, if you have a consumer based business, there are a lot of news stations that their lunchtime, they'll have like a third hour, they have a third hour. It's usually lifestyle and you can get pretty easily placed on it if you have some sort of presence and something to talk about. They need people for that lifestyle hour. So always look for PR and media opportunities. Kathleen: Yeah. And I would say a great resource for that also is help a reporter out -- HARO. I mean that's a no brainer. It doesn't cost anything. You subscribe to it, you get an email, however many times a day with reporters looking for sources for stories. It can be overwhelming, but it also is full of opportunity. Kate: Yeah, if you have gmail, you can put on a label and then go in and look when you have time. But yeah, that's an awesome recommendation. Podcast interviews are great. You find people like yourself and you have similar topics and interests. There are websites like Canva that make building marketing collateral so easy and you look like you know what you're doing design-wise and it doesn't cost you extra money. So by all means, make your decks, make your one pagers, make collateral for all these different use cases. Think about collateral. Kathleen: Oh my God, I have to stop you and just say, I am the biggest Canva fan girl on the planet. I am not a designer. I do not know how to use the Adobe suite to design anything. That's the one thing I've just realized. I'm not, I don't have the aptitude for it, but I can go into Canva and make the most beautiful things and I do it probably four times a day. I love it. Yes. It's amazing. Kate: Yeah. Canva, huge. When you get later on in your startup and you have to have brand differentiation and you know, you don't want to use simple stuff, that's different. Early on, use Canva, print this stuff, have leave behinds for customers. It doesn't cost that much money to just really work on your marketing collateral. I think also when you're on the topic of press, look at your local press opportunities, where can you talk at local events, whatever works locally. We'll end up working in different geographies and at larger scale. So learn locally first and that stuff is free. It just takes time. And also work on your industry. So look, so look at this stuff in terms of, are you being, are you B2B or B2C? So where does that fall in? Then look at your media, look at it local and look at an industry as well. And then you want to start growing your community in terms of media. I see entrepreneurs, it's kind of painful to see that they're trying to do all the platforms and it's terrible on all of them. Just choose the ones that are most relevant and a couple to start and just start figuring it out. There's some great tools. A lot of people are saying, "Well, I don't want Twitter because it's not working." Okay. But the thing about it, the people who are on Twitter right now are really passionate and they stay on it. They're a very, very, very passionate bunch. My favorite Twitter tool for growing a Twitter audience is called Jooicer, which is J. O. O. I. C. E. R. Have you seen it? It's awesome. It's like 30, 40 bucks and will grow your Twitter audience for you beautifully. So you know, find tools like that. And again, like we were saying with Canva, you can make beautiful social media posts in Canva since you now have to have more designed content. Use Canva for that.  Kathleen: Yeah, I love this and I will tell you right now as the head of marketing at a startup, I use Canva, I use helper a reporter out. I totally, totally agree with you on those suggestions. Those are great. Kate's advice for startup founders Kathleen: Well we are running low on time. So any last words of advice for startup founders out there who really want to take that fast path to growth? Kate: Yeah, I think the important thing is to try to not get overwhelmed. And so what I recommend doing is, do a list of 10 to 15 different things. You can try figure out a small test for that, that's feasible. Like, if it's an ad unit, put enough money so it's actually worth the test and go through and test them and concentrate on one thing, like one thing a week, step by step by step. If you try to do it all at one time, you get really overwhelmed and it ends up not diluting the quality of it. So, one foot in front of the other is what I always tell people. Kathleen: Yeah. That's good. Kathleen's two questions Kathleen: Now changing gears because I have two questions I always ask all of my guests. We're all about inbound marketing on this podcast. So when you think about inbound, is there a particular company or individual that you can point to that you think is really doing it well? Kate: The first thing that popped in my mind was not what you asked. It was a company that helps people do it well. I really like Unbounce for landing pages. I think you can get a very beautiful landing page up quickly. I would have to think on that. I think, sorry, I was not prepared for this one. Kathleen: That's okay. Unbounce is a good suggestion actually. I can just keep that. Kate: Okay. I'm a huge proponent of Unbounce. There are other cheaper tools, but I really like the quality of Unbounce. Kathleen: Yeah, they're a great company. Second question, the biggest pain point I hear from marketers is that they can't keep pace with all of the different ways that digital marketing is changing. So how do you personally stay up to date with all of it? Kate: Being an agency owner, I've spent a lot of time and resources going through MarTech tools and organizing them. If anybody wants these reports, just please email me. And that helped organize my brain a lot and help me understand if I was doing the right thing or not. So we've done reports where we analyze CRM tools. There's one on website development tools. We've got one on email marketing and one on marketing automation. What those reports did, because in my head I just couldn't keep it all straight, was say here are the solutions, here are all the features that they all have comparatively. And then here are the integrations they have. Because I think what's so hard about MarTech right now is it's not only like I like this product, so I've got 20 products I have to put together. And when you're going out to buy, it's, it's not a great way for marketers to have to spend time of like, which tool, and having to analyze this themselves. So one of my goals to help marketers is to say, here's some reports. Go through everything that you need to know and hopefully you can pick a tool or at least narrow it down to two or three that you should get a free trial on before you commit to it. So I think any website like that, save yourself time on evaluating tools. Find people who've done the research for you. I think that that is really overwhelming. Kathleen: That's so true. It is. It's a lot. There's so many MarTech tools now. How to connect with Kate Kathleen: All right, well we're just about out of time. So Kate, if somebody's listening and they want to learn more about you or traction hero or they want to reach out and ask a question, what's the best way for them to connect with you? Kate: Katewalling.com is my personal website and Tractionhero.com is for the agency. It's a very landing page type website. Right now we're kind of building, um, by doing the work first. You can always reach out to me on my email, which is kate[at]katewalling.com or Twitter, which my handle is @Katewalling. You know what to do next... Kathleen: All right, fantastic. If you're listening and you liked what you've heard or you learned something new, please head to Apple podcasts and leave the podcasts a five star review so we can get in front of some more folks just like you. And of course, if you know anybody else who's doing kick ass inbound marketing work, tweet me @workmommywork, because I would love to make them my next guest. That's it for this week. Thank you so much, Kate. Stay healthy. Kate: Thank you so much for having me.

SEASON 2: EPISODE 4 Meditator Kate Johnson explores the connection between car horns and anonymous comment sections. ABOUT THE GUEST Kate Johnson teaches classes and retreats integrating Buddhist meditation, somatics, social justice and creativity at the Rubin Museum in New York, the Institute of Contemporary Art in Philadelphia, Spirit Rock Meditation Center, the Kripalu Center and the Omega Institute. Kate works as a culture change consultant, partnering with organizations who are pursuing noble goals to achieve greater diversity and sustainability. She is also an utterly unprofessional dancer and performer who earned a BFA in Dance from The Alvin Ailey School/Fordham University and an MA in Performance Studies from NYU. ABOUT THE HOST Neil Goldberg is an artist in NYC who makes work that The New York Times has described as “tender, moving and sad but also deeply funny.” His work is in the permanent collection of MoMA, he’s a Guggenheim Fellow, and teaches at the Yale School of Art. More information at neilgoldberg.com. ABOUT THE TITLE SHE'S A TALKER was the name of Neil’s first video project. “One night in the early 90s I was combing my roommate’s cat and found myself saying the words ‘She’s a talker.’ I wondered how many other other gay men in NYC might be doing the exact same thing at that very moment. With that, I set out on a project in which I videotaped over 80 gay men in their living room all over NYC, combing their cats and saying ‘She’s a talker.’” A similar spirit of NYC-centric curiosity and absurdity animates the podcast. CREDITS This series is made possible with generous support from Stillpoint Fund.  Producer: Devon Guinn  Creative Consultants: Aaron Dalton, Molly Donahue  Mixer: Andrew Litton  Visuals and Sounds: Joshua Graver  Theme Song: Jeff Hiller  Website: Itai Almor Media: Justine Lee Interns: Alara Degirmenci, Jonathan Jalbert, Jesse Kimotho Thanks: Jennifer Callahan, Nick Rymer, Sue Simon, Maddy Sinnock TRANSCRIPTION NEIL GOLDBERG:  My favorite New York biking experience is going over the Manhattan Bridge into Brooklyn. There's that long, gentle curve as you exit into Brooklyn, and you also don't have to pedal because you're ... KATE JOHNSON: Going down a hill. NEIL:  ... going downhill. KATE: I know what you're talking about ... NEIL:  I live for that. KATE: ... down to Jay Street. NEIL:  Yeah, exactly. And I also love that moment, especially at night, coming from Brooklyn into Manhattan on any of the bridges, and when you reach that midpoint where you can stop pedaling, you're over the water, and you can basically just glide all the way back into Manhattan. KATE: Yeah, from the peak, right? NEIL:  Yeah. KATE: Oh yeah, that is beautiful. Yes. I actually crashed my bike once on that because I was just having this peak moment as I was looking out at the water, then I hit the side and scraped my knee and hobbled the rest of the way. NEIL:  Hello. I'm Neil Goldberg and this is SHE'S A TALKER. Today, I'll be talking to meditation teacher Kate Johnson. But first, here's the premise of the podcast, and I like to say it's better than it sounds. I'm a visual artist, and I have this collection of thousands of index cards on which I've been jotting down thoughts, observations, reflections for a good 20 years. They were originally meant just for me, maybe to hold onto something I wanted to remember, or maybe to use in a future art project. But in SHE'S A TALKER, I'm using them as prompts for conversations with some of my favorite New York artists, writers, performers, and beyond. NEIL:  These days, the cards often start as recordings I make into my phone here and there throughout the course of the day. Here are some recent ones: English. Double letters are okay, triple letters are too much. I'm kind of surprised Trump likes Sharpies. Have to get home to feed one animal to another animal. NEIL:  I'm so happy to have as my guest, Kate Johnson. Kate teaches classes and retreats that integrate Buddhist meditation, social justice work, and creative practice at places like the Rubin Museum, the Institute of Contemporary Art in Philly, Spirit Rock Meditation Center, and the Kripalu Center, among others. She also describes herself as an utterly unprofessional dancer who earned an MA in performance studies from NYU. We talked in January at a recording studio at The New School near Union Square in New York City. NEIL:  I'm so happy to have Kate Johnson with me today on SHE'S A TALKER. Thank you, Kate, for being here. KATE: Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me. NEIL:  I want to start with a couple questions I ask everybody. The first question would be, what is the elevator pitch for what it is you do? KATE: Oh my God. I am a mediation teacher and organizational consultant, and I often work at the intersections of spirituality, social justice, and creativity. NEIL:  Whoa. That is an elevator pitch. KATE: Right? NEIL:  That absolutely is. KATE: I pulled it together. NEIL:  I can really see how that triad could inform each other. Spirituality, social justice, and creativity, yes? KATE: Yeah. I mean, I also feel like those are the things that I just like and am good at, so there's not a whole lot else, I think, that's for me in this world. I try to just make them go together whenever I can. NEIL:  Right. Oh, isn't that what we're all doing? Just make the things that we like go together. Do you have parents, grandparents who are still around? KATE: Yeah. I have parents who are still around. NEIL:  What, let's say, would your parents say to their friends when their friends ask what you do? KATE: Oh. My mom would say that I'm a spiritual teacher, and my dad would say that I'm a writer. NEIL:  Oh, that's interesting. What's that split about? KATE: Well, my dad was a writer. He was a journalist, and so I think that he always really supported my love of language and saw that part of me. Then my mother, recently she started getting really into meditation, so she practices twice a day, she comes to mediation retreats that I teach. I don't know, I also feel like there are certain people in life where when you talk to them, your wisdom kind of comes out, and I think that my mom and I are that for each other. NEIL:  Oh, that's wonderful. KATE: So I see her as a spiritual teacher, too. NEIL:  Do you get nervous when she comes to a meditation retreat? KATE: A little bit. I mean, partially because I kind of have an internal commitment, even when I'm in meditation spaces, to really be honest about the way that I hope that our spiritual practice can inform our political lives. So oftentimes that means talking about my experience as a black, mixed race woman, and I have a white mommy. And so part of, I think, what's spiritual about our relationship is the willingness not to give up on each other as we have these conversations about what it means for me to be a black woman in America, what it's like for her as a mother of black children, and the ways in which, as a white woman living in kind of a middle-upper class area of Chicago, the things that she doesn't see or the attitudes she unconsciously picks up she didn't mean to. And so I think it's amazing. It's also frustrating in some ways to be in this long-term relationship with this person where we're not going to give up on each other because we have different views. KATE: But just to go back to your question, I'll often look out and be talking about experiences of racism, both within meditation centers and outside, and I'll look out at her and just wonder, "What's she thinking?" Does she feel bad that she couldn't shield me from those experiences? Is she feeling like, "Is Kate making this up? I don't know what she's talking about." So sometimes I'll try to read her face, but most of the time I'm just happy she's there and that she's ... I mean, she raised four children pretty much by herself, so I'm happy she has a little time to relax. We probably terrorized her. NEIL:  You mentioned not giving up on each other. I mean, that's such an interesting way to put it. KATE: Well, every family's different, everyone's relationship with their parents is different. A lot of the people that I interact with often in my social life, they have a relationship with their parents, and I think sometimes with the elder generation in general, where there's a sense of ... I don't know, kind of objectifying them. Like we might have seen them once and then saw a mixed bag, as we all are, someone who in some ways has it together or is loving and in other ways maybe carries outdated notions of themselves or other people, or uses embarrassing language to describe a particular ethnic group. Then we just kind of ... There's this dulling of the perception that happens after that where we no longer are seeing that person, we're seeing our memory projecting it out and then reacting to our own projections. And so- NEIL:  Oh my God. Story of my life. KATE: So I think not giving up is being, in some ways, willing to allow each other the grace that is actually offered to all of life, which is that we're all always changing and to be awake to each others' evolving experience and to be willing to be honest about what our experience is and shape each other. I think that's the other way in which I've seen friends give up on parents, is that they stop really telling the parents who they are. We fear we may not be accepted or parents just don't understand, that kind of thing, and sometimes that's true. Sometimes we have that fear and it's confirmed, and that's really hard. So it's like you can't have your whole sense of worth wrapped up in what a parent thinks, but also what if they couldn't see us once and then one day they could? And we kept kind of showing up and allowing ourselves to be seen, if that's not dangerous to who we are. I like to be surprised. NEIL:  Shall we go to these cards? KATE: Cool, yeah. This is actually the part that I'm most excited about, so ... NEIL:  All right, well. The first card I have is, "Patience always feels somehow wrong." KATE: The wrongness. I relate to the discomfort of patience. I think one of the blessings of Buddhist meditation training is it kind of gets drilled into your bones that just because something is uncomfortable doesn't mean it's wrong. I think to the point where it can even go a little too far and people can become scared of pleasure, and that's also not the point. In the Buddhist tradition, the word that's translated as patience is called khanti. It's K-H-A-N-T-I and it's one of the virtues, and so it's not different than other traditions where patience is a virtue. We often translate it as patience, but it means something like forbearance, also. KATE: So for me, when I learned patience as a child it was like holding on like hell until you get what you want, like, "If you're good, then you can have this treat when you get home." And so you just hold your little hands, you just sit on them and wait until finally, "Oh, I get what I want now that ..." I have a sense of relief and the patience that is talked about in the Buddhist teachings, which I also relate with ... and it's a little bit of a perspective shift, but it's like not just patience until I get what I want, but the patience that one has when we may never get what we want, or whether what we want is gone and will never return. The kind of patience that we have with our bodies as they get older and we go to do something that we used to do effortlessly. The suggestion, I guess, is that we can meet that experience with patience. NEIL:  Yeah, there's so many different types of patience, too. For a long time, I supported myself in a day job that involved a mix of computer graphics and IT work. Working with people around computers brings up, for me, the deepest level of patience or challenges to patience. KATE: Because they're not going fast enough? Is that- NEIL:  You could take the keyboard and mouse out of their hands and just do it absolutely in two seconds, but it is important to develop that muscle memory of using the mouse and the keyboard and da da ... going through the steps and having it be imprinted on your body in that way. KATE: Yeah. I mean, we're talking and I'm like, oh, so much of patience for me is about pace. It's about I either want a task to go faster than it's going, I would like time to go faster than it's going, and the frustration that it's actually not ... It's difficult. It's difficult. I don't know, would you say it's wrong? NEIL:  That really segues, interestingly, into a card I have about honking. "People honking are not where they want to be." KATE: That's deep. I mean, that's really deep. Yeah, I mean, gosh, to just be able to make a noise and be like, "I'm here and I don't want to be." NEIL:  Right, exactly. KATE: It makes me want to have a horn to just carry around and be like ... NEIL:  Oh my God. KATE: Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I think it's like they don't want to be here, but also, "I want someone to know that I'm here and I don't want to be. I want to make that heard. I want to make that visible." I can relate to that feeling. NEIL:  Oh my God, yeah. God, that horn would be on frequent blast in my life. KATE: Yeah, yeah. Or when you see a child have a tantrum and it's just like, that's them honking their horn being like, "Something is not right." NEIL:  Right, right, right. That's so true. Oh my God, the horn is metaphor. But I bike a lot, and I was stopped at a light where someone was honking the horn, and the biker next to me ... I love the conversations you'll have occasionally at a stoplight with someone else in the bike lane. He said, "Car horns should be just as loud inside the car as outside." KATE: Yeah, that's a cool idea. I mean, I can't imagine any car manufacturer picking that up, but you know. NEIL:  I know, right. I think that's also a connection between honking and vulnerability. As a bicyclist, do you ever kind of make that connection? I often feel like when people are honking at me, they're actually expressing a fear of hurting me. KATE: Oh, oh. NEIL:  Have you ever had that, or ... KATE: Yeah. I guess it can be like that the same way a parent will yank a kid, like, "Why'd you do ..." When they're doing something that they feel is dangerous. Yeah, I think the feeling of being in this giant metal thing that's hurling through space that could totally kill somebody is really kind of jarring. NEIL:  Absolutely. KATE: I mean, I love that you're giving people the benefit of the doubt like that, like, I startled them and they don't want to hurt me. I think that's a wonderful attitude to take. I didn't often think that. I often felt like there was so much protection or something that, I don't know, they felt they could do whatever they wanted. I often would pull up next to a car at a stop light and look over and when the person looked at me, the impression that I had is that they forgot that they could be seen inside this compartment. NEIL:  Oh, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. KATE: So it almost is like an anonymous comment section or something where they can say whatever they want with their ... and then no one has to know it was them that trolled this nice biker. NEIL:  Honking is like the anonymous comment section. That's fucking brilliant. The card says, "Childish laughter at Buddhist lecture." You know what I'm talking about? Any kind of spiritual lecture ... First of all, the teacher will often embrace a kind of, "The bird doesn't worry about da, da, da." You know, say something kind of like that. KATE: Oh God. Yeah. NEIL:  And then in turn, the audience will laugh but it's not funny, and it's a childish kind of laughter. KATE: I was talking with a friend about this recently because we were talking about the kinds of Dharma talks or spiritual teachings that become ritualized to the point that this person is telling a story that they have actually told many, many times. You've heard it on a podcast and you've heard them say it at last year's retreat and they're telling the same story and there's the same punchline and you laugh again and it's like, "Why?" We were wondering if it's less about novelty and more about familiarity, kind of like there's a sense of, "Oh, I know what's coming and it's comforting to me and I laugh because I know what to do here." NEIL:  I hear that. It's why we like sitcoms. You know the joke's about to come ... certain types of sitcoms. KATE: Right. And it also depends on what's coming before it because sometimes I think that Dharma talks can also bring up heavy stuff, like death and aging and heartbreak of various kinds. And so it builds up a kind of energy that can actually be difficult for us to contain, and so there's this sense of it's powerful, but it's almost uncomfortable because it's building up this energy, then wanting it to release in some way. So even if the joke is bad, just being excited that there's a release valve that you can pull. NEIL:  Next card. "How I sometimes keep my shoelaces untied as a kind of mindfulness reminder." I'm aware that my shoelaces are untied as I'm walking. They become untied, it's not like I purposely don't tie them. They become untied and I kind of hold off on tying them just as a way to be like, "Got to walk mindfully." KATE: Oh wow. What effect does it have, or how does it work? Does it help your mindfulness? NEIL:  Absolutely because it's like you don't want to trip. It then becomes a walking meditation. But also, it really makes you aware of how many people will tell you, "Hey, your shoelace is untied." Which is why New York is great. KATE: I was thinking about that. I was like, "Oh my God, do you know what you're doing to people? NEIL:  Right, exactly. KATE: For me, I get so scared when I see someone with their shoelace untied. I'm like, "You're going to fall." But I kind of love that. I also think it's ... Walking meditation can be kind of boring. I mean, all meditation can be kind of boring, so it's like ... NEIL:  Right, exactly. KATE: ... juicing it up a little bit, living on the edge, walking meditation. I like it. NEIL:  Because you could trip, as mindful as you're trying to be. KATE: Right. The wind blows a different way, it swings that little lace underneath you're other foot, and then you're just- NEIL:  Exactly, you're down. KATE: Yeah. But I'm glad you haven't fallen yet. I think that's cool. NEIL:  May you not fall. KATE: May you ever be upright. NEIL:  Do you have any little tricks like that, like meditation hacks? KATE: Yeah. I mean, I think Thich Nhat Hanh's tradition is really amazing for this kind of thing because they talk about mindfulness bells and the way that you can ... And bell is a metaphor, it's something that makes you remember, and so you just ... It can be a bell, like every time your phone rings, you take a deep breath, feeling your feet on the ground before you pick it up. Or every time you touch a doorknob, you allow yourself to begin again, whatever that means. There's ways to do that. NEIL:  Oh, I love that. KATE: I think for me now, a lot of my mindfulness bells are internal. I'll actually notice a disturbance in the field. I'll notice that my chest tightened up a little bit or my belly kind of swerved, or I feel something inside and use this moment to kind of actually pause and notice what happened there, and if necessary, to care of it. I'm big into letting my body talk to me these days as a practice, after having really ignored it for many, many, many years. I'm like- NEIL:  As a dancer, or in dance work? Or just as a human being, or ... KATE: Yeah, definitely in dance work, although ... I was going to say, although I don't know if it started there. I might have ... But in dance for sure, there were ways of moving my body that didn't feel good, but then I thought, "Well, this is what the choreographer wants, so I'm going to do it." There's an element of dance training that is about don't pay attention to what you're feeling and just get it done, and that is capitalism. That's not- NEIL:  Dance is capitalism. That is hilarious, oh my God. KATE: I think, right? It's like what matters is production and not necessarily your human feelings and needs, and so as humble as it is, actually paying attention to what your body is feeling and being willing to attend to that ... at least with your attention, if not with your actions ... is kind of this radical anti-capitalist act. NEIL:  I love it. KATE: For some reason, from a early age I was really drawn to these European concert dance forms. I was really into ballet and then I was really into Martha Graham technique and some parts of the Horton technique, which I ended up in when I went to The Ailey School. They're not actually meant for everybody ... NEIL:  Yeah, everybody. KATE: ... and I'm not even sure if they're meant for anybody. It's kind of this idealized form that we're all ... So anyway, I don't know if feeling or feeling good is always a part of dance for the dancer. I think sometimes it's helping other people feel something. But I don't think that's what dance has to be and I don't think it's what it is at it's best, but I think somehow that's the kind of dance that I end up doing most of the time. NEIL:  That's an interesting way of thinking of it. It's almost like this Christlike thing of, "It doesn't feel good for me, but it makes someone else feel good." KATE: Feel amazing. NEIL:  Right, yeah. "I could imagine thinking as I'm dying, 'Here we go again.'" KATE: Where did this come from? NEIL:  I just had the idea it could have a sort of familiarity to it, in the same way that falling asleep has a familiarity to it or something. I mean, of course, the beauty of it is I'll know but I won't be able to have a followup podcast episode about it. I think. KATE: You'll just have to send us a sign or something. NEIL:  Yeah. And it's not even for me about necessarily believing in reincarnation, which I don't know if I believe in. But I don't think beyond that. KATE: The thought that I had just now was like, I hope I'm familiar enough with death by the time I experience it myself that I can think, "Oh, this is normal, this is natural, this is the way of all things," instead of, "Oh, why is this happening to me?" Which, I think, from talking to people who volunteer in hospice and stuff, that can be the thought. Like, "Why me, doctor? Why me?" And it's like, "Well, you're 90." NEIL:  "Why not you?" KATE: But yeah, so there's a lot of Buddhist practices that are preparations for death and dying, and some of them are visualizations, some of them are reminders. There's one that's, "I am of the nature to grow old. I am of the nature to become sick. I am of the nature to die. Everything and everyone I love will be taken from me and I am the owner of my karma, it's my only true inheritance." KATE: I mean, I think that one of the things that make Buddhism a hard sell is that it can feel like a downer to be like, "Okay, we want to talk about suffering. We're going to talk about impermanent." The paradox is that somehow being in touch with those things lends a sense of, "Oh, I'm actually alive now and this is what life is," and maybe even a sense of urgency around understanding, "This will not always be the case, so I don't just have forever to bumble along until I finally decide I'm going to do the thing that I need to do." And that leads to a kind of freedom and happiness that denial of death and denial that things are changing actually ... We will never win that game. NEIL:  Right, oh wow. Yeah. KATE: We will never succeed. This is a setup, actually, but it's a setup that you can buy a lot of products and goods on the way to realizing that's possible. So it's good for the economy, but it's not necessarily good for our spirits. NEIL:  Capitalism again. What's a bad X you'd take over a good Y? KATE: A bad X I'd take over a good Y. So first thought is a bad day sober I'd take over a good day drunk. NEIL:  Are you in recovery, can I ask? KATE: Yeah. Almost nine years, which means I was definitely meditating before I got sober. I was trying to become less attached to wine without actually having to stop drinking wine. But that didn't work out as well and I think that the meditation practice helped me to get real enough with myself to be like, "Oh, this is actually never going to work out. No matter how I dress it up or dress it down, it's never going to work out for me." Yeah. NEIL:  What is it that keeps you going? KATE: Oh man. I think it changes. A couple of answers came to as I was letting your question resonate, and one is a sensory sense of smell kind of thing, like being able to smell a different future that's ... I think it's something ... What keeps me going feels like it's something in a future that is looking back or calling to me from a future moment, saying, "You really want to get here, actually. Keep going. I love you. Keep going. You're doing great." NEIL:  And that connects to smell for you? KATE: Yeah, it's like a whiff. Having a whiff of something that is just kind of like cooking. I genuinely want to see what's going to happen. Like, "What's going to happen today?" It's very close to anxiety, but it's not anxiety. I know that there is kind of a way that anxiety can get people up in the morning for momentum, and I had that experience also, and this one is just a half-step back from that and it feels a little bit more sustainable for my system just to be like, "I wonder what's going to happen?" NEIL:  That seems like a beautiful place to end it. Kate Johnson, thank you so much for being on SHE'S A TALKER. KATE: Thank you. Thanks for inviting me. It's been awesome. NEIL:  Thank you so much for listening to this episode of SHE'S A TALKER. Before we get to the credits, there were some listener responses to cards that I'd love to share. It's a new thing we're doing in season two. NEIL:  In my conversation with artist and baker Andy Hawkes, we talked about the card, "Leftovers as a kind of embodied memory." In response, Lex Brown wrote, "More than memory, leftovers make me think of the seemingly endless future of packing my lunch in middle and high school. I thought it would never end. Gladware, monotonous future food, foggy plastic lids, leftovers for school night dinner or for lunch the next day." John Pilson wrote, "I feel like the leftover with teeth marks deserves its own category, probably a name other than leftovers. Maybe evidence?" And finally, [Com and See 00:27:59] wrote, "One of my uncles in Hong Kong as a personal rule never keeps leftovers, even if he's making lobster or crab or abalone or delicious meats. It's so ruthlessly unsentimental, it breaks my heart every time I eat at his table." NEIL:  Thanks to everyone who wrote in. I loved all the responses. If you have something you'd like to share about a card on the podcast, email us or send us a voice memo at shesatalker@gmail.com or message us on Instagram @shesatalker. And also, as always, we'd love it if you'd rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or share this episode with a friend. NEIL:  This series is made possible with generous support from Stillpoint Fund. Devin Guinn produced this episode. Molly Donahue and Aaron Dalton are our consulting producers. Justine Lee handles social media. Our interns are Alara Degirmenci, Jonathan Jalbert, and Jesse Kimotho. Our card flip beats come from Josh Graver, and my husband, Jeff Hiller, sings the theme song you're about to hear. Thanks to all of them and to my guest, Kate Johnson, and to you for listening. Jeff Hiller:                       (singing

This episode is a live recording of my chat with Sara Kuljis about some of our favorite year-end reflection activities. Joining Sara and me for this episode is Kate Rader, one of the participants from our Raise Thriving Kids Workshop. Kate is a stay-at-home mom to 3 adventure-seeking and fun-loving kiddos, Lauren and Caroline, identical twins who are 13 and Jack, age 10, wife to her college sweetheart Jeff and curious lover of books, podcasts, and conversations about intentional parenting and living. [caption id="attachment_6803" align="alignnone" width="1024"]Kate Rader and family[/caption] Here's what Kate had to say about our workshop: "It was just so wonderful to be in a room with people who care enough to be intentional about the choices they're making for their families and what they want for their families because it's a work in progress--and we're all working together." Big Ideas In addition to parenting books, podcasts, and coaching, workshops are a great resource for parents. Just as most people need continual training and education in their careers, parents can also take the time to learn and connect with others in order to feel invigorated. It is helpful to share what is working and to discuss best practices for strengthening family bonds. We talk a lot about the importance of self-care and modeling a balanced life for our kids. Today we discuss the ideas I shared in my recent post, 5 Simple Year-End Reflections: Create a Reverse Bucket List. Look back over your life and make a list of the cool things you've already done. 100 Family Memories - brainstorm and make a list of what happened in your family this year. Pick a Quote-of-the-Year. Find a quote that resonates with you, or something motivational, looking back or looking ahead, a quote you want to live by. Select One Word that you want to guide you in the new year. Be authentic and make it a word that is uniquely yours. Remember your Favorite Books or resources from the past year. Take time to let the new things that you have learned (in books, podcasts, workshops) to percolate and apply the concepts or practices to your life. Pick one or two of these ideas that resonate with you. You can do an activity on your own or engage the whole family. Make the delivery of the idea fun and light. Allow people to be silly. Getting the family together over the holidays, expressing gratitude, and setting intentions together are my favorite ways to bring in the new year. Quotes Sara: "Sometimes parenting intentionally feels counter-cultural. When we're swimming upstream, to have fishies to swim with is so confidence building. It's reassuring, it's empowering. I've loved all the parents we have gotten to work with through this project because it has fueled me." Kate: "The regular accountability is equally as important to me as the one-day workshop. Whether it's via podcasts, recorded conversations, or live conversations, getting together at Starbucks, or whatever it might be, that's really beneficial in maintaining the kind of wonderful feelings that we got coming out of the workshop." Kate: "If we're going to develop a true family culture, we need to be intentional about spending time together as a family. And that time is harder and harder to come by." Kate: "Just being together, away, experiencing some new adventures has been a neat way for us to firm up our family culture and values and make memories together. That's been a key take away for me." Kate: "It's not about those grand gestures. It's about the thoughtful, meaningful moments where people take the time to appreciate their relationships." Audrey: "Even if you're not a person who gives affirmations, I really don't think there's a person in this world who wouldn't mind getting a nice note saying something that someone likes about them." Audrey: "Sometimes parents start thinking that their relationship with their child is supposed to be like a normal, reciprocal relationship. Expecting that you pour into this child and they're going to pour back to you, is not how parenting works. However, I'm seeing that once they're adults you may get more of the reciprocity than when they were kids. I get very filled up now by my adult children when they give me affirmations or send me a nice message--it's really great." Audrey: "You keep encouraging, even if you don't think it means something because I think it really is landing somewhere." Audrey: "Another activity could be taking a year's worth of fun texts, cards, and nice messages and putting them somewhere like in a scrapbook just as a great boost." Sara: "I love the idea of sitting down with the whole family and saying, 'let's look way back' because there is a chance that something that I didn't consider very bucket-y might have been really significant to my kids. I think it will remind us that it has been a rich life of experiences." Audrey: "I would challenge you to focus on yourself for your own reverse bucket list. Sometimes it's good to just think about for your own self-awareness and self-worth and knowing that you're enough just the way you are. I would suggest that the bucket list idea is more of a personal thing because it is recognizing the goals you've already achieved and the cool things that you've done, whereas the 100 Family Memories would be the things you're grateful for." Audrey: "The goal is to try to remember (as many as) 100 things so you get down to some of the minutiae and those are some of the funny, random, individual things that happened. It's been a really fun practice." Kate: "I think when you allow each family member to share their treasured memories from the year, it gives us insight into their personalities and their level of value and priorities, as well." Audrey: "I like spending time at the end of the year, really thinking through what my one word is, thinking about what was good this year and what is it that I want to take into the new year and feel more of, or do more of--I love the process." Audrey: "Determine the kind of person you want to be in the next year. Identify the characteristics of that best self. When you're being your best self, what does that look like? It has guided me a lot because once I pick a word, I then seek out resources and ideas to help me live that word better." Kate: "It's a neat way to put the focus on how you're going to spend your time, your energy, your reading, and research--all that good stuff. When it is meaningful, it really does carry you through the year and it gives purpose to how you're spending your time." Audrey: "It really hit me that my best contribution to my family, to the world, comes when I focus and take the time to do some research, reading, writing, thoughtful time, which is not a normal part of life anymore. You have to actually build in focus." Audrey: "There are so many new ideas and things you can do, but to really move the needle, all you need to do is just one. I am challenging myself this year to slow down on the consumption of new information and instead get out the books I've read, look at my highlights and just recap." Related Posts & Podcasts 5 Simple Year-End Reflection Activities Learning to Enjoy the Little Things 100 Family Memories #oneword My One Word for 2019: Focus Ep. 68 12 Parenting Tips for Happier, More Connected Families Ep. 105 Live Above the Noise with Rob Reiher Resources Present Over Perfect: Leaving Behind Frantic for a Simpler, More Soulful Way of Living by Shauna Niequist How to Raise An Adult: Break Free of the Overparenting Trap and Prepare Your Kid for Success by Julie Lythcott-Haims One Thousand Gifts: A Dare to Live Fully Right Where You Are by Ann Voskamp Finding Fred Podcast  

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Todd: Hello can you say your name, please?Kate: My name is Kate.Todd: Ok Kate where are you from?Kate: I'm from New Zealand.Todd: Oh are you from Auckland?Kate: No, I'm from Wellington, the capital city.Todd: Oh Wellington is the capital? Is it in the north island or the south island?Kate: It's in the bottom of the north island.Todd: What's Wellington like?Kate: Wellington is a very beautiful city. It's got… the center is obviously the township with a few tall buildings. Then we have the harbor which is very beautiful especially at night time with city lights reflecting on the harbor. And then on the outside, we have all the suburbs where everybody lives.Todd: How is Wellington different from Auckland or Christchurch?Kate: First of all Auckland. Auckland is much bigger: it's the biggest city in New Zealand. And the city itself in the very center, downtown center, the buildings are much taller and much more hectic. Traffic is hectic every day, going to work. Wellington is much more calmer. However, in Christchurch, it is flat, completely flat. Wellington is very hilly, many hills.Todd: Is it a cheap place to live? Or is it expensive?Kate: Reasonably cheap. Compared with Auckland it is much cheaper.Todd: How much do things cost? In New Zealand how much is a bus ride?Kate: Bus ride from home to town would be 1 dollar 50, New Zealand dollars.Todd: Ok and how much is a loaf of bread?Kate: Loaf of bread, 2 to 3 dollars.Todd: What's the best thing about your city?Kate: Best thing about my city is, strangely enough, the wind.Todd: The wind?Kate: It's known for its wind.Todd: How's that a good thing?Kate: How's that a good thing? The cool breeze especially in summertime when it gets quite hot, acool gentle breeze although it can get quite strong.Todd: And what's the worst thing about your city?Kate: Worst thing about my city would be the trains: they're so inconvenient and they don't cost so much but they're just inconvenient and the buses aren't so good either.Todd: Well it's kind of the same in my country!

Do you have disturbing thoughts about your own death? Or horrific daydreams where you play out different scenarios involving your own death, or that of your loved ones? I think of it as the "elephant in the room" when we’re talking about spirituality and our souls. We’re probably all having these thoughts a lot more than we’re talking about them … You Might Die Tomorrow is Kate Manser's life’s work dedicated to helping you live urgently, love openly, and enjoy your life — by thinking about your death. It’s about an inspiration to live today. GUEST LINKS - KATE MANSER www.youmightdietomorrow.com Deathbed Meditation You Might Die Tomorrow Facebook Group MENTIONED ON THE SHOW Heather Alice Shea HOST LINKS - SLADE ROBERSON Slade's Books & Courses Get an intuitive reading with Slade Automatic Intuition FACEBOOK GROUP Shift Your Spirits Community BECOME A PATRON https://www.patreon.com/shiftyourspirits Edit your pledge on Patreon TRANSCRIPT Kate: Yeah, I was just like everybody else. I didn't really think about death very much, other than thinking that I was totally invincible all throughout high school, doing a lot of dangerous things. But at the time, what precipitated my shift, from going from not thinking about death to embracing death, which is where I am today, was a period of intense death anxiety. I don't know if you've ever been there, Slade, but I was just consumed by death anxiety. At the time, I was in a marriage that was very unhappy and I was just in decision paralysis agony, didn't know what to do, and then I had three people die around my same age in unrelated tragedies in a span of six months. So that just sent me into a tailspin oh, Ohmygod, I could die at any moment. I need to be scared all the time. Slade: Mmm... So tell me, what are some of the components of death anxiety? What are the thoughts and the voices that you're hearing? What are they saying? Kate: It was like there was a movie in my head all the time of a really gory, not fun movie happening where like, if I was driving into an intersection, for example, which you do, we do all the time. I would just have this quick snap vision of a Mack truck coming and taking me out as I went through the intersection. And then it would just continue. That movie would continue and I would think, oh, what would happen? The paramedics would come, then my family would have to be notified. All down just this dark tunnel of mortality. And then the same thing would apply for other people in my life. I would imagine getting the call that my mom had died unexpectedly. And I think the phone was kind of a trigger for me because I had gotten a couple of these unexpected calls when three of my friends died. I had that negative association. And so I was just afraid of death all the time. It was just this mysterious unknown thing that I couldn't control but put all my energy into trying to. Slade: Okay, so it was much more visceral violence, suspensful gory movie kind of stuff for you. It wasn't even more the existential stuff. It was actual... Well I've heard before that that's kind of a PTSD thing? To, in the moment, be struck with flashes of anxious violence. I mean, anything can cause you to have PTSD. You could have it around the trauma of those phone calls. You know what I'm saying? The ones that had happened in the past and that was some kind of lingering energy that was getting triggered. Kate: Oh yeah. And it was the gory moment of death, for sure, but it was also.. My mind was very preoccupied with all the things that would happen after the death occurred. Because that's what's unknown. We don't know if we're going to be like the stoic, you know, if we lose someone in our life that we really care about, are we going to be the stoic survivor or are we going to be like crumbled under the circumstances? So I would have trouble sleeping at night because I would imagine the whole scenario. What would happen if my husband had died unexpectedly, and calling his family and going to Brazil to have a funeral there and all of the things that would happen. It got to the point that, I had always been someone who was like, pretty much a lover of life, but during this period, which lasted about a year and half, I was putting all my energy into death anxiety and it had completely clouded the beauty of life. Slade: Okay, so I have to tell you. There was this synchronicity involved with our meeting. The day before I was introduced to your site, a woman had posted in our Facebook Shift Your Spirits community asking if anyone else had obsessive thoughts about death. Kate: Wow... Slade: And she was really quick to say that, it wasn't really negative, it wasn't violent. She wasn't contemplating suicide or anything like that. She was just kind of putting it out there that she thought really often about death. But more from an existential place. That's why I was surprised that you were talking about these kind of violent scenarios, the actual death itself. She was kind of talking more from a place of like, being really profoundly aware, like this clock ticking and having this limited amount of time on earth and she just put it out there and said, you know, that she was thinking about it in a contemplative way. She found it odd that more people didn't talk about it, right? It's like this elephant in the room, especially in a community like ours where we're talking about spirits and communication from those who've passed. That kind of stuff. She was asking if anyone wanted to chime in and say how they felt about it. And it was weird because it was one of those posts where a lot of people were liking it or responding to it without commenting. So I said, "Yeah, I really do think those thoughts actually, and I wasn't sure what to say though in support of that other than... I feel you. Kate: Yeah. Slade: And then the very day, there you were with your message and I thought, okay, this is obviously a conversation that I need to have for everyone who was probably seeing that post and thinking, I don't even know what to do with this. So help me reframe this in a positive light. How did you get to a place where you could embrace your death? Kate: So believe it or not, it was another tragic and unexpected death of someone around me, same age, so it was like the fourth. A year and a half had passed since that six months where I had three in a row. I believe it was, yeah, about a year and a half went by and then a friend and coworker of mine at Google, Dan Freedenburg, was climbing Mount Everest and he died in the Nepal earthquake, in an avalanche, when he was up at base camp. Man, I was so angry initially when I heard that he died, because he was a really vibrant, adventurous, goofy, very intelligent person, and very well liked among Google and his friends. He dated a celebrity and what my first reaction was, was just anger. That he had taken part in an elective sport, really, and took his life in his own hands and ultimately it was his choice to climb Mount Everest. That ultimately took him out of this world, away from all of us. I was so mad at him at first. But then as I thought more about it, I realized that climbing Mount Everest is something that you don't just like do on a random Saturday. It's something that requires a ton of mindful energy. It's very expensive. You have to train really hard for it and it's a choice that you make over a long period of time. I realized that he was a very smart and vibrant person and he had put a lot of thought into climbing Mount Everest. He accepted the risk that came with that because, as I looked back on his decision, I came upon this realization that he HAD to climb Mount Everest in order to truly live. That if he had stayed on the ground, he also would have died in a way as well, because he would have been living out of his system of values and not living his authentic life. That was when I suddenly saw death in a new perspective, which was that I have no control over when I die. Dan had no control over when he died and he decided to live vibrantly and take calculated risk. I could die climbing Mount Everest if I ever did that, which I probably wouldn't. I could die in that intersection that I was so afraid of going through all the time. Or, I'm a very clumsy person! I could probably die climbing the stairs, and I'm putting so much of my precious energy into worrying about death when I could be putting that energy into living while I'm still alive. That was really the main turning point for me, was just like, hey, I could die tomorrow and whereas when I was with the death anxiety, that was the most terrifying thought. Suddenly, a light had been shown on it and I was like, oh! I could die tomorrow! And that's the most freeing concept I've ever experienced. Slade: So that's interesting. The fact that we could make that a freeing concept. So how do you recommend, as we're listening, we're all probably now really feeling the anxiety about it. So how do we manage that? Kate: Yeah. I'm actually doing some research right now for this for the last chapter that I'm working on for my book. Like, psychologically we manage our fear of death. I believe that fear of death is... And many, many scientists and psychologists believe that fear of death is like the one universal fear that all humans share. We're not all afraid of snakes but we're all afraid of death. The research shows that the best way to manage our fear of death is two things: Number one. To live life in accordance with our values, which then bolsters our self-esteem. And number two, to invite mortality awareness into your consciousness, as opposed to keeping it on the fringes, because I'd be very curious to talk to the woman who posted in your Facebook group what her contemplation has been and the arc of that. Because, I know I can say for myself that the more I invite death into my life, the more I think about it and meditate on it, the better I feel and the more vibrant I live while I'm still alive. Slade: So how do you think we can use this sense of our mortality to empower us? To help us make decisions about what we're doing in our lives? Kate: Man, in death, everything seems to just fall away and become clear. Death is this... There's something about it. There's something about the finality of it that we have so much going on in our lives that when we look at it from the perspective of death or the end of our life, we realize how little of it really matters to us. That's what I've found is the best way to help me make decisions in life is, I actually do this thing that I call the Deathbed Gut Check, which is that when i'm faced with a decision that I'm having trouble making, I don't know what to do. I get decision paralysis with the best of them and I'm frozen and trying to figure out what the heck I want to do with my life. I do the Death Bed Gut Check, which is, I will close my eyes and imagine myself on my deathbed. I'm on my deathbed and I'm looking at the present moment or the tough decision that I'm trying to make, I'm looking BACK at it from the perspective of being about to die. I am given a sense of clarity and I imagine myself thinking, like, ok, I'm on my deathbed, how do I feel having done Option A. I observe the visceral reaction in my body. Do I feel a lightness of being, or do I feel a pit at the bottom of my stomach? I do the same thing for Option B. Because it's so loud in our lives, with all this stuff that swirls around, and it's difficult to focus on... get that perspective of what matters. I use that sense of mortality to get perspective and help me make decisions in life. And that five second Deathbed Gut Check has helped me make some really, really important decisions and also really simple ones. And it's something that, death is accessible to all of us and it's a tool that is radically underused. Slade: I have to share with you that several months ago, I was working with a healer around some creativity blocks and I was really struggling with the book that I was working on. Part of my struggle was that I had another book that I really wanted to be writing instead, and I had this HUGE sense of guilt about abandoning one to work on the other, and abandoning all that work and etcetera etcetera. I was just angst thinking about it, as authors do. You know, just ridiculously blown up into this existential crisis. The woman I was sharing all this with came back to me with just a really simple question: If you had only enough time to live and produce one of these books, which one is it? Kate: Wow. Slade: And it was INSTANTLY... Kate: gasp It was! Slade: You know what I mean? The answer was like, Oh. Kate: Lightning bolt. Slade: Yeah! It was like, so just flashed through your body. Like, all the thinking and worrying and pros and cons list just fell away. Kate: Yes! Slade: Yeah, so I will now call it the Deathbed Gut Check. Kate: Yeaaaah. Slade: It's a great way to think about it. Well, so you also have something called the Deathbed Meditation. Tell us about that. Kate: The Deathbed Meditation actually came from the Deathbed Gut Check, because I had observed these positive effects of imagining myself on my deathbed and helping me make decisions in life that... I became curious about the deeper effects of meditating on mortality. So I started googling around and I learned a lot about how pervasive death-awareness is, particularly in the Buddhist religion. But I couldn't find an actual meditation similar to what that Deathbed Gut Check is, from the perspective of our deathbed, looking back over our lives, and so I wrote one. I've been facilitating it now for I think two and a half years and it's of course morphed over that time but it's essentially a guided meditation that's anywhere between 20 and 30 minutes. That's appropriate for novice and experienced meditators alike, in which I safely guide you to imagine yourself on your deathbed, wherever that is for you. It's different for everybody. It could be your grandparents' house. It could be a shack on the beach. It could be, one guy actually, for him, his safe place, where his deathbed was, where he imagined it in this meditation, was a place that he had been on in a psychedelic trip and he said, "I never thought I'd be able to get back there and the meditation took me there." So from the perspective of your deathbed, wherever that is, we go through and we look over your life. You growing up. We look at the decisions that you made in the time that you had. What you did do, what you didn't do. And we observe, again, those visceral feelings that come out. But again, it's without judgement because at the end of your life, there's nothing you can do. But then at the end of the meditation, we close with a call to act, because unlike on your deathbed, at the end of this meditation, you DO have more time. And with that, we have seen some really beautiful personal transformations occur. Slade: What kind of feedback do you get from the people who are doing this meditation? What are their takeaways? Kate: Oh, so many amazing things and I have to tell you, when I first started doing, even when I first started, with the whole concept of, you might die tomorrow, and the Deathbed Meditation, it had radically shifted my life for the better. I'm telling you, I made changes in my life. I quit my job. I went travelling for a couple of years. Like, those things are awesome, but it was really the daily impact that mortality awareness had in my life, that just made me want to share it with the world. But there were incidences where I was like, oh, this is talking about death. There are some people or some instances in which people may not accept it with open arms, and it will be hard. And the two incidences that I thought were, one, people who were actually dying. People with terminal illness or the elderly or people who deal with death every day in their lives, like doctors for example. I was like, oh, I don't want to talk about you might die tomorrow with them because it's so real for them and I think it's inappropriate. It turns out, over time, that those people, and particularly those with terminal illness, are the OG fans of you-might-die-tomorrow. And what I realize is like, unlike the rest of us, they can't push death under the rug. So from there, I gained a new sense of confidence in my message for everyone. And then regarding the Deathbed meditation, just recently I, when I was doing workshops and things, I wasn't always including it. But when I got the call from Facebook a couple of months ago and they wanted me to perform, or facilitate, the Deathbed meditation at their corporate office here in Austen, that was when I knew that this is a message that I should not be afraid of. This is a message that people want to hear. And some of the transformations I've seen are people who, like, one woman is a scientist and she was working testing soils for the government. She left her job and is now pursuing her dream to become a nutritionist. There are a lot of people who packed up their things and are now travelling in various parts of the world as a result of the meditation. But really, what I hope is that, these big changes are fantastic in living life in accordance with what's meaningful to you. It is fantastic. But it's the little ways that death can positively impact your life, which is what I hope people take away from the Deathbed Meditation. Just loving more vibrantly, living more urgently, and making it a priority to enjoy our time while we're still here. Slade: So, this may be a little bit obvious question. It may just be a continuation of what you're just saying. But what do you hope that you can contribute to our collective understanding into the greater conversation about spirituality and our experience being human. What do you hope your legacy is? Kate: Mmm... my legacy. I hope that people can embrace their death. That is my message. But really, at the end of the day, I found that you might die tomorrow and thinking about my death is a means to an end. Thinking about my death has positively impacted my life. But what I want people to take away at the end of the day is to live in accordance with your values and I have no idea why we're really here. We're like, what is that saying? We're meat sacks gravitationally stuck to a rock spinning in a galaxy greater than our comprehension. We don't know why we're here. And so, to prioritize enjoyment in life, I think that's what I really would want people to take away, is just have fun. And you have no idea, just enjoying your life, how far that ripple effect will go to that which you don't even understand. Slade: It occurs to me that I should probably ask you, what are your feelings about the concepts of life after death, of the spirit surviving this lifetime? There's no right or wrong answer. I'm just curious what your personal feeling is about all that. Kate: I'm actually weirdly a fan of conspiracy theories. And I definitely don't think the afterlife and spirituality is a conspiracy theory but I say that because one of the things that I'm grateful for in my life is that I believe anything is possible until it's proven otherwise. And I really like the idea of, in our consciousness, living on in spirituality. So I believe in the possibility of the afterlife. I absolutely believe in spirituality and if you look into the experiences of people who have actually had near death experiences, one of the key things, the key aspects that many of these experiences share is an understanding of the Oneness of humanity and shared consciousness, and the idea that our lives do go on. And again, I think that death is the greatest teacher, and if that's what they see and it brings me comfort, then I'd absolutely believe in it. What was your experience of mortality awareness? Slade: You know, I think mine is more of the existential stuff, and part of what I contemplate a lot, because I am surrounded by a community of people. Here's the weird thing - my brand is all about bringing spirituality down to earth. Like fewer hearts and flowers is my tagline... Kate: Yeah. Slade: Yeah, yeah. So what that really means is it doesn't do anything for me if I can't apply it to my actual life. If spirituality and personal development go hand in hand, for me, and all this great new age vocabulary and tools and concepts only really, where's rubber hit the road kind of thing. So I'm always looking for that for myself, and that's sort of what I share and put out into the world. Like, okay, well it's great that you can talk to your spirit guides. What can we do with that, you know? Kate: Yeah. Slade: But it's interesting because I still attract an audience that is much more woo woo than I am. Sometimes I look at the conversations going on in my own Facebook community and I'm like, man these people are out there! And I love it! I love it because I don't... I'm not there to debunk anything. And like you said, you know, if there's something that I don't really, if I can't disprove it... My favourite quote is actually from Marilyn Monroe. She was being interviewed by someone for a newspaper article and she made an offhand remark about somebody's astrological sign and the reporter said, "Do you believe in that?" And she, with this totally like, Duh, look on her face, was like, "I believe in everything a little bit." So I kind of have that feeling. Like, I believe in everything a little bit. So one of the things that I notice in my own deathbed meditative contemplations is, I have a lot of friends who are mediums who spend... their entire jobs and career and purpose revolves around the concept of speaking to people who have passed away. And I'm not a medium. All mediums are psychic but not all psychics are mediums. Kate: Yeah. Slade: And I don't specifically have that experience. So I have a big "Huh... okay, that's interesting." So what I find my contemplations being is, I'm led down all of these super phenomenal paranormal conversations with people all the time. I'm inundated with the concept that, you know, our souls are infinite and all that kind of stuff. And I can visit people here, talk to them after I'm gone. And then I'll have these moments where I am like, wait a minute, that's what everybody else thinks. And I'll reel it all the way back in and think, what do I really think about that? And I have this concept that I've only spoken about with a few people. I actually did... Remember when I said sometimes my conversations with new people are more interesting than any other? I spoke with this woman named Heather Alice Shea once on the show and we were set up through a mutual friend. "You guys should do an episode!" She and I talked for 50 minutes before we started the interview and it was all around an offhand comment that I had made about the fact that sometimes I think about being an atheist. And I test out my beliefs in terms of like, can I still be a psychic and be an atheist? Can I still explain some of this phenomenon without having to believe in a higher power or like a bearded man in the sky kind of thing. So I have this whole concept of spiritual atheism that I play with. She and I just went down this rabbit hole about that, right? Again, it's not about debunking anything or disproving anything, but is there this place that you can be comfortable in where you don't know? Kate: Mmm... the ambiguity. Slade: Yeah! Are you okay with the thought that, you know, this could happen or something else could happen? I could be totally surprised. It could all be over and I wouldn't even know, you know? So those are the kinds of things that I think about. I don't know if that answers your question, but... Kate: Yeah, that's beautiful. I mean, that really hits on what helped me is getting comfortable with that ambiguity and mindfully channelling my energy elsewhere. It's like, oh, I don't have control over when or how I die. But I have 100% control over how I live until that time comes. Slade: Yes. Kate: And I love that spiritual atheism. I met a guy who now has a retreat in Thailand and man, he's very passionate about his concept of spiritual atheism. Slade: Really! Kate: Oh yeah, yeah. I should connect you guys. Slade: Yeah! Who is it? Kate: His name is Pierre. He is American but he studied Zen Buddhism for many years in Japan and how has a retreat in Thailand. He's just very outspoken about this idea that you CAN separate them. You can separate the woo woo from the spirituality. And that you can make it whatever you want. And very specifically about the spiritual atheism. Slade: I have this fantasy. Like, you know you have your play out the - ooo what if this happened, kind of thing. And this is the comment that I made that Heather picked up on. I did an episode once about how I fantasize about just one day becoming a born again atheist. Kate: Wow. Slade: And announcing to everyone, I've worked my way through the list and I've found a way that I can philosophically justify all of this. For myself. Who would be okay with that? Who would stick around? Because I don't... I actually think that we can have all of this stuff. I think there's a lot of biological explanations that will exist in the future understanding. I believe that a lot of the things that we experience as psychic phenomenon is literally just a part of our biology and the miracle of our brain. And it doesn't mean that it's not happening. It just means that we're just equipped to do it in mortal form. You know what I mean? Kate: Wow. Slade: I think that there's a lot of science that could explain some of the phenomenon that we experience. That's not a psychic prediction necessarily. It's just this thing that I contemplate a lot, which is, can we have all of this? And is it okay if you choose to populate your spirituality with supernatural concepts? Because I kind of think, at the end of the day, people who have faith, even if it's a different faith system, I have found, are more open in general. They're more compassionate, they're more likely to believe other people's beliefs. They're more likely to leave other people alone to be whatever they want to be. They are less likely to need to convert everyone to their way of thinking. You see it in elderly people in particular, who really talk in purely fundamentalist Christian vocabulary. But their philosophy and their vibe and their true wisdom is super open minded and extremely liberal. I kind of feel like there is a place. There is a happy spot. I think that maybe it's what your message is about. That there's a place where we can exist in uncertainty. And because of the uncertainty, be motivated to make it all amazing now. Because what good is it, again, if it's not useful to us right now, what good is it if I'm gonna be able to contact my loved ones after I'm dead? That's great, but what kind of impact can that have on people's experiences here and now in the moment? Can we do something practical? Can we be okay with the concept that what some people talk about is spiritual entities to a more clinical, intellectual mindset? We can talk about the archetypes as kind of psychological programming that all our brains kind of carry, like apps on our phone or whatever. Kate: Yeah. Slade: So I like to contemplate the place where all those things end up in a big chaotic mash and I think at the end of the day, it's a little bit of a choice. And as long as the choice is life and happiness and I'm gonna get off my ass and DO something, then I'm cool with whatever you want to bring. Kate: Yeah. Wow, you had a very insightful observation there about people who have a sense of spirituality being more open and accepting. There's actually scientific, or psychological basis for this. It's the research that I'm doing now is basically like, it really all comes down to security. And if you have a sense of security, which religion very often provides, you have the space to be more open. Because you don't feel threatened. Whether it is Christian fundamentalism or whatever the belief in, that everything's going to be okay, that you're part of a group and things are stable. That bolsters self-esteem. But one of the things that I argue in my book is that spirituality is amazing. And I absolutely believe that people should do whatever makes them feel good. I think you can also create your own personal religion of what is meaningful to you. Whether whatever you're practising religion is, you can kind of personal religion of, okay, these are the things that are important to me. And I'm going to actually live in accordance with those, and then that, therefore, provides that security that allows people to be open and... Man, that was a beautiful observation. Slade: Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me about this today. Tell everyone where they can go to find you online to explore this more. Kate: Yeah! Come hang out with me. My website is www.YouMightDieTomorrow.com. Pretty easy to remember. And I am finishing up my book now. It's going to hopefully be coming out this summer. And if you're interested in joining our community on Facebook, or inquiring about the experience of the Deathbed Meditation, I do those in person and online and groups and corporate workshops. I just love to hear about what your experiences are and what thinking about your death has done and impacted your life. Slade: That's wonderful, Kate. That's for coming on the show. Kate: Thank you, Slade.

Episode 42 of The Teaching Space Podcast is an interview with Kate O’Sullivan discussing how we can be more inclusive. Podcast Episode 42 Transcript Hello, and welcome to The Teaching Space Podcast. It's Martine here, thank you so much for joining me. Today I am joined by a guest on the show. It's my great pleasure to introduce you to Kate O'Sullivan. Rather than me try to reveal the very, very large number of layers to Kate and all the amazing things she does, I'm going to ask her to introduce herself to you. Martine: So hello Kate, welcome to the show! Kate: Hello Martine, thanks for having me. Martine: It's my pleasure, tell us about you. Kate: Okay- Martine: That's a huge question. That's a massive question. Kate: Okay let's see if I can do it because I always go blank the minute we ask people this don't you. Tell me about yourself. So yes I am Kate. I currently am living in Edinburgh. It is freezing, we had our first frost here today. I have a daughter and a girlfriend and I'm self-employed as a writer, kind of broadcaster and photographer. And my thing is creating online and journalism. And I tend to cover a lot of topics around the area of sort intersectionality, identity, feminism, LGBT+ issues, social justice and kind of looking at opening up conversations that can be quite simple but also quite challenging. You know those ones when you start having a conversation perhaps if you're at a dinner party or something and you're chatting someone and suddenly find yourself in that conversation and think, "I am out of my depth here." It tends to be those that I lean in towards, because I think a lot of us struggle with those and I think particularly with the political climate and so many changes happening around social policy, both home and abroad at the moment, there's a lot of people who are suddenly finding themselves realising that they have kind of almost blank spaces in their knowledge about other people and the communities and some of these policies that are changing. I think it's quite an anxiety-provoking state for people, where they feel like they've failed in some way or they feel that maybe they're ignorant in some way. Or it can actually make us feel quite defensive. We can often sort of really feel like "well I'm a good person. I'm not racist. I'm not homophobic." And we can't always address sometimes the fact that a lot of these things crop up because that's the way we've been conditioned. So I think I'm trying to host conversations and write articles about just making these things explicit, so we can see them and perhaps not feel so afraid to have conversations. That's kind of what I'm doing, which is quite a big aim and quite a broad aim. And also a very exact and minute aim all at once, is how I feel. Martine: Multi-layered, definitely multi-layered. In some respects, education is at the heart of what you're trying to do by the sounds of things because you eluded to the fact that there's quite a lot of fear around saying the wrong thing in regard to certain topics. And what you're trying to do, from what I understand, is kind of equip people with what they need to get rid of some of that fear. Would that be fair to say? Kate: Yeah. I think it's sort of really balancing that line between personal growth to get yourself in sort of a confident place and to acknowledge that you're not going to know everything. And that you know, particularly when you're talking about systems of oppression, they're not ... they're not always obvious. It's not as simple as somebody used a really bad word against this person, and that makes them racist. It can be quite layered and very institutional. And we're all subject to those. And sometimes it's really hard to see as a result. So I think it's that kind of personal growth that sort of not feeling bad about that but feeling empowered to address it. But then at the same time there's kind of that real much more community focus of are you being inclusive? Are you getting out of your bubble? Are you thinking about other people? And are you working emphatically with people? And I think that's the word that kind of really has to drive so much of these conversations, is the word empathy. Because it's, that's such a skill that we, it's really hard to teach and learn. But it's so crucial I think to so many of these conversations going a lot easier and smoother I think. Martine: That's such an important word. And actually one of the reasons for this conversation we're having, just to give you a little bit of background, I'm gonna steal the word empathy and take it. Its mine now. Take it to my initial teacher training students. Because part of my sort of day job is to help people who are interested in perhaps making a move into teaching. Helping them kinda get ready for making that move. So we do, essentially an initial teacher training program targeted at people interested in post-16 education and adult education as well. And we do lots of stuff on equality and diversity. I mean, it really is the backbone to a qualification which is fantastic and right and essential. But, I do sometimes feel certainly from the material that I use to deliver my topic that there is a tendency to be a bit tokenistic, you know. I mean an appalling example would be, so if you're going to do a PowerPoint presentation in your session then make sure you have at least one black person, one person in a wheelchair, etc, etc. and it's just awful. It's so tokenistic and I see that quite a lot and I really want to see some change there. I'm not entirely sure where to start. Kate: Yeah. I think that's where a lot of people are as well. And I think there's a lot of people who are trying with the best will in the world and sometimes that is the start. I'm fairly sure that's how I started. It was being particularly aware as a photographer saying "oh, we don't have a single model that looks like X, Y or Z." You know, whether it's her skin tone, whether it's her age, whether it was whether she was able bodied, whether they were cis-gendered. You know, I think that's probably how most people start, because they're sort of aware that we've been sort of perpetuating an idea that is a very homogeneous looking resource quite often. You know it's often a very white, very straight, very able bodied, very cis-gendered, very affluent quite often. You know working class narratives are often only presented as a tragedy. Particularly when it comes to literature. I mean it's quite exhausting sometimes, what you have to draw from. I really feel that as a sort of literature graduate. Sometimes you just think God, the only things I sort of knew where the things like cares where it was just like gloom, doom and women were abused. You know, that was kind of the only narrative you could have if you were working class. So I think you know, I think once you're at that stage where you're sort of aware of it, it can be very hard because you look up and realise that well I live in a bubble. And then we start saying things like "well I live in a very undiverse area," or "the resources I have are not very diverse," as if these things are easy to overcome. Of course you are. That is that institutional layering of oppression. That is how you know, we have black girls that grow up thinking that white dolls are much more, attractive or better behaved. You know, there's a study that's been done over 40 years of young children playing with black versus white dolls. And sure enough, every single child chooses the white doll as the good doll. The white, the beautiful doll. The white doll who's loved more. Because that is a message that's come through across all media. You know all their lives up to that point, these children are five. They do it again at six, seven, eight, nine and ten. It's one of those, to watch the videos kinda like one of those you know ... having to sort of you know, swallow hard kind of moments when you really realise what you're up against. So then, it's sort of then, you realise that it's something, you have to really commit to inclusion. And it's something that, you're right, it can get tokenistic. And sometimes it's about really thinking about things. So the example I used, the one to do with photography is like oh we don't have a model that looks like our community. Well that's great. But of course the other side of that is I cannot just say "oh, I've ticked that box. I've put this model in front. I've put a speechless, voiceless woman on the cover of something. Great. Job done." Because, am I hiring people who are doing the writing? Am I using things like copy editors and all these different steps in the process. And that's when you start moving beyond a sort of tokenism because it's intrinsic. You’re sort of opening the door and saying “I am not going to be a gatekeeper here”. And in the classroom that would be things like, why do sourcing materials, or say talking to the community that surrounds you. Who can we see? Who can we use? Who is coming in and doing work experience? Who's being hired? Who am I referring to if I'm using a YouTube resource? You know, that sort of layering. And you know, we're currently looking at some really depressing statistics around how much representation there is. You know, you're looking as little as one percent for some resources aimed young people of being B.A.M.E characters and that's really miserable. And as a result, it can't be just one character suddenly turns up. We are gonna have to make a wholehearted effort to say it's not good enough. 50% of my curriculum needs to be representative. And it doesn't matter if 50% of my classroom doesn't look like that because this is about the young people in front of me being aware that this an issue. But also being aware that when they go forward, that's what they should be doing. Because perhaps they will be in an environment where 50% of their community looks like that. It's sort of, we need to sometimes stop this "well our school isn't a very diverse school so we don't need to address that." What you've said to all those children in front of you is that it's not our responsibility to address inclusion and diversity or racism or homophobia or any of these things because it doesn't effect our community. It affects everybody. And that becomes a kind of, we use the term sort of white supremacy around those kind of ideas because you are perpetuating a system that continues. That you benefit from. Whether we like it or not. I get better treatment as a white skinned woman. And that is a privilege that I enjoy. So when I address anything when I'm a speaker at an event, then I always ask who else is involved. Who's hired behind the scenes? What's your marketing material like? Is one of the first questions I ask, because I really see that as my responsibility. I've done a lot of work with events who've suddenly looked up and "oh we have not done enough on this." Like great, I can make these suggestions, I know some amazing people. It can be that small or that big a gesture. Martine: I can really relate to what you say about people's response of "I don't live in a particularly culturally diverse place," because I live in Guernsey. It's a tiny, weeny island of 60 odd thousand people. And it is a default response. And I don't mean to criticise my fellow Guerns but it is something that I hear quite a bit. And as you rightly point out, that means we have to work even harder to have this conversation and do this work, and do this research and just make it intrinsic. As you pointed out, and that's so important. It is difficult for trainee teachers to know where to start. And you know I didn't want to sound negative about the tokenistic approach earlier, in so far as everyone's gotta start somewhere. And it's about awareness. And I get that. But it's about the next step is elevating it. Quite often, what I've done in the past is with my trainee teachers I've said, “you can start by doing this tokenistic approach, but what next? You tell me. Is it okay? Why is it not okay?” And we end up having a really interesting discussion about taking it that next level. What I'd really like to think about, if this is okay with you Kate, is some practical steps that trainee teachers can take in order to make sure their learning environment is really properly inclusive. What'd you reckon? What can they start by doing? Kate: I think there's certain terms that would be really helpful to get familiar with. Because once we are okay with certain terms, and what they mean, we don't have to fear them in our environment. Things like the fact that I said white supremacy. For a lot of people I can imagine they absolutely hate hearing that expression. It's a very normal expression that we need to normalise and say we live in a culture right now that values white skin. That has white values and that is absolutely institutional. There are fantastic folks out there. Reni Eddo-Lodge did 'Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race.' She has a series of free podcasts attached to the book. And it's an audio book as well. So in terms of accessibility there's some great stuff that you don't have to buy the book in order to sort of understand the concept. And you know you've got audio as well, which helps for anybody that has access issues. And I think she really sort of broke that down, particularly in the UK. There's 'So You Want to Talk About Race,' which is this US version of in terms of you've got sort of a more international kind of background. It sometimes helps. But I think once you sort of got to terms with that idea, understanding words like privilege and what that means it can be very very hard and can really get people's backs up to get this idea across. And it's something that really needs to be got across to young people who are gonna go and vote soon. They are part of the next generation that's gonna be shaping policy. And understanding that we don't all have the same starting blocks in life makes an enormous difference to how you go forward in presenting material when you're teaching. And how what you expect of your students as well. So a really sort of basic way of understanding it is if you are white, if you are able bodied, neuro-typical, you have a reasonable, you're sort of within that body mass index that's considered healthy, rather than overweight, you are straight, you are cis-gendered. All these things kind of add up. Means that you will have a slightly better start than somebody who does not present like that. And it means that your work will go harder, no one's denying that you’re not working hard but the privilege comes in when your starting block just is so much further along. There's so many people, that just putting their name onto a CV immediately it takes in something into that interview, if it even gets to that stage. And there's a lot of research about people changing their names in order to get to an interview. And what happens at that stage. So we've got privilege. We got white supremacy. And you know, terms that just strike fear. Understanding some of those can really change the way we go about finding resources, the way we talk to people and the way we encourage the young people that we're working with. Because, as I said, it's not necessarily just that we're representing them sometimes and showing them what it means to be seen. I mean it would've made a huge difference to me as a 16 year old to have seen a better representation of the LGBT+ community. I grew up during Section 28 which was the really homophobic piece of policy that was put in by the Tory government that basically forbid any encouragement of a homosexual lifestyle. It meant that there was no resources. And it’s now just not there. It takes a long time to put those things in place. And to put teacher training in place. That we can be more inclusive in our approaches. That it just is there, it's just seen whereas that didn't exist for me. So I think that I would really encourage people to have a look at that. Another thing that people get really hung up about is well, how do I do it because I'm a white woman? And what do I do when I want to talk about or you know, reference something? And I think this is educational but how do I know that I'm not stepping on toes? It's perhaps looking at the term cultural appropriation or cultural misappropriation. And as a sort of a primer to it, the idea is that we are using something from a culture and we've removed the people from it. So it might be something like, I have a background in primary education, I have done post-16 because I did special ed. But it would be things that you just have a lot of primary classes. You'd have like little teepees as like reading corners. That's great, but the teepee actually has a really strong cultural and spiritual purpose for indigenous community. And we've removed the people from that. So perhaps it isn't appropriate that we've put that in our very white colonial classrooms. And we've removed any kind of reference to it. And we can't say "oh well it's educational. It's important they see a teepee," if we’ve taken all the references around it that actually make it important and an educational or appreciative tool. So I think the first step I really think is just getting comfortable with these terms that can often just make us really pull back. And perhaps not put things in for fear of getting it wrong. And perhaps or we just like dig in our heels you know. I'm not a racist person. You know, I'm not homophobic. You know as somebody who only really came out very late in life. You know it's only in my thirties that I started to question these feelings that I had. That's internalised homophobia. If I can be homophobic of myself, I'm fairly sure straight people can homophobic, you know. We right need to sort tie ourselves in knots at this idea of I am too good a person to let this happen. We all do it. We all make mistakes. And I do it all the time. And it's really important at those times, we don't double down. If you get feedback from within our communities and our classroom. If we look at our materials and think, "oh wow this is very colonial, this geography topic I'm doing," or you know, whatever it is. Don't double down. Think, okay, what is my next step? Sit with that discomfort. And I think that is the kind of foundation that then will really help you go about looking for those resources. And asking around and talking in a way that you feel you can choose the right language. You're not bulldozing up to somebody. Because it's no one's job to educate you. You know, you're not walking up to the South Asian woman and you know saying, “I really need to be more inclusive, can you tell me about this experience?” Let's pull back from that. But it does mean that I'm really aware of this and I'm glad you're here. Would you be interested in, and I'm really aware of my privileges. Just changes the emphasis of the conversation that you're trying to have. And also, you know, dealing with the reaction of something. This is exhausting. I don't want to have this conversation. And not being upset by that but understanding for that person, they're living with that identity every day. So I think, that would my biggest advice. Rather than go to this resource and it'll teach you how to do it. Or read this thing and you will be a better person. I don't think there is a thing that's going to fix it. But I do think working on ourselves and those hangups and where our bias starts and ends is possibly the best start ever. Martine: I'd really like to ask you about your school experience. Cast your mind back. It's not that long ago- Kate: It was. That's the sad thing, it was. Martine: I think we're a similar age actually. I think so- Kate: You're thinking it's not that long, and you'll have a goodness when you see it in black and white, right? Martine: Absolutely. So cast your mind back. From an equality and diversity and inclusion perspective, is there something that you felt could've been done a lot better when you were in school? Kate: Yeah. I think I was very lucky in a lot of ways that I had, we had a lot of student teachers at my high school. And then again at my college. That meant that not that somebody was sort of a more mature, sort of more experienced wasn't capable of, but we definitely had these student teachers who were really keen to kind of make things very relatable and be a lot more hands on. And they weren't as perhaps, frightened of topics that were seeing policy change. So as I said, I was a child of Section 28 and it was completely forbidden for about I think it was almost two decades to even touch on a topic that related to homosexual experience. So for a lot of teachers, they never had any training or background other than you will lose your job if you discuss this. And for some people that was kind of a relief because it didn't relate to their experience, they wouldn't put themselves in a position that they felt uncomfortable with. But for some people obviously, they really felt that they needed to talk to young people. Because they understood what it is to grow up with that stigma. And so a lot of the time we sort of had this, in some ways I can, immediately spring to mind we had this great science teacher, she was our chemistry teacher. And our biology teacher was sick right during our sex education syllabus. Which she was like, "oh great I noticed how you timed that." And she made a really big joke of it. And she was really young. And she was like "okay take advantage of the fact that you have a young teacher and see how you can make her blush." Was kinda of her approach, which was amazing. And it took a lot of the shame out of that conversation. Because I think particularly I think for sort of young people sort of ... I haven't quite seen it in my daughter yet, she's really young but I'm seeing the beginnings of that kind of shame response. Our bodies are something that is uncomfortable to talk about, or to be visible. And there's certain ways you behave. And you know things that are desirable and not desirable and that's the end of discussion. And I think that can be really limiting for young people. And it can be very dangerous. When we start talking about healthy relationships. Healthy relationships with our bodies. Healthy relationships with each other. And before we even get onto those, you know the topic of intercourse. So I think in some ways I was very lucky that that shame was removed. And I felt very at ease as a result. But for me, I have grown up in a family that their attitude… we had a friend whose daughter was a lesbian and I can remember family members saying like it was this huge tragedy. Well she'll never have children. It's just awful. And they were trying to be really accepting like, oh we don't have a problem with her but gosh could you imagine having a daughter who'll never have children. Which of course is fundamentally untrue. It's just not true. And yet, that was the thing that struck me more than anything. And I buried my feelings. To me that was, I can really pinpoint that oh, this is not okay the way I feel about girls. And I hadn't really explored very much but explored very little. And up to me I just didn't see, well you can be attracted to boys and girls and sexuality is fluid, no? Oh no, it's really not. Okay. We don't do that. And because it was completely lacking in school, there was no one to correct me anyway. You know, all the sex education materials that we looked at were you know, there is a man, there is a woman. They have sex. A baby arrives. They raise it together. I mean, that's just erasing a ton of experience from single parent families, to IFV, to, there's so many things. And of course, they were all white. They were often in the 70’s porn kinda thing. The guy often had like a mustache. Is what I remember really clearly and being quite traumatised by this. Martine: Well that's gonna traumatise anybody. Kate: Exactly, I was like where is this material coming from? Because I see people didn't often didn't want to sort of really tackle it. You know, who wants to sit and look through a pile of sex education resources, right? But it's really important. And there's great places now doing really inclusive education. There's actually an organisation it's called amaze.org and they have, they focus on young people and it's fully inclusive. So they talk about things like coming out. And they talk about masturbation in a really sort of almost body neutral way. They're explicit but they don't assume gender is binary. And I just think it's extraordinarily forward thinking. And so important because we know from so many people who've spoken up for the transgender community. Most people know. And they know very young. And the risks to mental health for people who cannot live authentically and cannot fully realise their potential, is devastating. So those kind of resources, and it's also not keeping it just within sex education, it's looking around yet not talking in binary terms about gender and sexuality. And not reducing it just to the active sex. There's so much more that goes with that, that just was not visible. You know, it wasn't in my English literature. It wasn't in my geography when we did sort of more social side of geography. It wasn't in sex-ed at all. It was forbidden from being there. And that needs to come right the way through education now. It's, you know, there's been so much focus on I think it's become like, I think it's become the gender equivalent of being a plastic straw and the zero waste debate. But there's kind of you know, gender neutral bathrooms. Gender neutral toilets within schools are so important because it means that somebody doesn't have to, they're just there. It's just not a big deal. And somebody doesn't have to you know, wave their hand and signal "I need a different option here." It shouldn't be on the person who's still probably trying to figure themselves out. Let's be honest. And there's been quite a focus on schools. Whether they should have them or not. Well actually, this, the law's already been changed that you can put them in and implement them. That changed quite a while ago. It's just taken a long time. And that's an example of how long policy takes to actually implement. That it's just not standard yet. You know, this is a couple years ago, this changed. So, I think sometimes we can get really hung up on one aspect of making sure that everybody is included at the sort of cost of well where else am I doing it within this educational setting? You know, yes I am. I'm teaching chemistry or physics but there are times and we know this within classrooms where those discussions are gonna come up, or material that we're using, or something that we're looking at can lend itself to a much more inclusive conversation. It's kind of a, you're one part of a collective whole, aren't you? And I think for me, it would've taken just one teacher. One teacher to maybe visibly be out or be sort of able to spot. You know, the signs of somebody who was really struggling with their identity. Or just to talk really frankly or just slide in you know, like a little reference. We're still having it in, recently in the US there's somebody has been legally dismissed because they referred to their wife. And you know were like this is inappropriate behaviour. Yet I haven't seen anybody, any female teacher who's been fired because she referred to her husband. Martine: Wow. Kate: Just yeah. Exactly. You know, it's still very culturally relevant. And particularly around young people. People have a really hard time sort of separating sexual aspects of sexual identity and identity. You know, the queer community we're all about like different style choices and you know subversiveness and there's so much more going on there and yet it is often reduced to well this is an act that I can't agree with so, done. So if you're hosting conversations or just making it a gentle and safe environment and signaling that safety, you are possibly part of something that is gonna help someone live a much more authentic life. And just not waste the time I did. I wasted 20 years of bad relationships before I went "oh, I don't think I like men as partners. Well this is a revelation." And things changed. You know. That could've been avoided so long ago, by just having a more inclusive educational setting. I really believe that. Martine: Gosh it's just such a massive reminder about the important role that teachers play in society. I mean, what a difference you can make. Kate: It really is. And it's one of the things I feel so passionate about teachers you know, being given appropriate times to prepare these lessons to be, have their work properly valued, to be properly paid and have the time off, you know. And the first to kind of support schools you know. And if teachers make mistakes I'm like "do you know how much pressure this teacher's under to perform?" I think it's really important that the support goes both ways. Because teachers are so powerful. They really are. Like, everyone can remember a good and a bad teacher, can't they? Martine: Oh, definitely. Definitely. Wow. That sounds like another conversation for another podcast episode. Goodness me. Wow. Kate there's so much good stuff there. Thank you very much. I told you listeners she has lots of layers and that's very positive. So thank you for such a thoughtful response to the topic of this episode. There's so much both trainee teachers and experienced teachers and trainers to think about. And what you've said. Thank you very much. Kate, where can people find you online? Because everyone's gonna wanna stalk you online now. Kate: Very welcome to. I can be found as kateosullivan.org. That's my website. And you'll find links there onto my blog. And my podcast where I host interviews around these kind of topics. They just make the every day quite explicit sometimes. I think people really struggle with it otherwise. I also have a Patreon community that's linked there. And the Patreon funds kinda everything that I do. It pays for all the podcasts. And I make sure everything's transcribed. And one of the reasons is for access, but also because I have teachers and things who often use them as material to teach from or to become part of their learning and education. And I do live broadcasts on there and some more podcasting. Some blogs. Some essays. With a view of just you know, people who want to invest a little bit more time they can then help substitute my pay so we can do it. It's kind of a crowd funding community, which I love. And online, I'm trying to think, so I recently changed all of my media handles you see… I am Kateo_Sullivan. You can find me in most places. I'm a bit sweary on Twitter and less so on Instagram but still quite sweary. Martine: I love that. Hashtag, a bit sweary. Kate: A bit sweary. I kind of had this idea that you know, all language should be available to us, so we ought to use all of it. Martine: So if people want to find you on social media presumably you've got some links on your website to all of those. Kate: I do. It's all linked. If you go to kateosullivan.org you got links like all up the top for everything you might need. From the podcasts, to Instagram. Whatever floats ya boat. Martine: Awesome. Thank you so much. Kate: Thank you. Wrap Up Huge thanks to Kate for a fantastic interview. It was a real pleasure to talk to her. Before we conclude the episode I have something exciting to tell you about. My first book The Productive Teacher is now available to purchase online. To find out more hop over to theproductiveteacherbook.com and you can grab your copy via that link. Thanks for tuning in. I hope you’ll join me next time.

What are some ways in which non-profits can really shine and accomplish things that even purpose-driven businesses may not be able to? Why is it so important for sustainability to be inclusive of everybody, no matter our backgrounds, abilities, differences in beliefs, or accessibility?   Sharing her wisdom here is Kate Williams, CEO of 1% For the Planet, which is a global movement inspiring businesses and individuals to support environmental nonprofit solutions through annual membership and everyday actions. In addition to bringing experiences from her past leadership along, she believes strongly in the power of collective action. Let's dive in.   HIGHLIGHTS [4:55] Kate: "It's about protecting places, but it's also about engaging a broad group of people all over the world—and how do we most effectively do that?" [17:27] Kaméa: "What do you think has been key to getting so many companies and people on board?" [19:46] Kate discusses the importance of inclusivity and accessibility within the sustainability movement. [20:01] Kate: "No matter where you live or how much money you have, you are a human on this planet that we share—so we need to take that into account." [23:53] Kate discusses the power of the nonprofit sector and its ability to go where for-profit businesses cannot. [30:56] Kate: "There's always something you can do, and among those things, I think it's really important that people choose because you're going to stay committed to the thing that's right for you."   Thanks for bringing your light! Find the full show notes with links and resources at www.greendreamer.com/101, subscribe to our newsletter to win monthly giveaways, and share your #1 takeaway from the episode tagging our featured guest and me @KameaChayne to spread the light and to let us know you're tuning in!

Panel: Charles Max Wood Mark Ericksen Josh Adams Special Guest: Kate Travers In this episode of Elixir Mix, the panel talks to Kate Travers who was a student/apprentice with the Flatiron School and now is on staff as a software engineer. The panel and Kate talk about adopting Elixir at the Flatiron School and Pattern Matching. Watch Kate’s talks about the topic; links to these talks can be found below. Show Topics: 1:08– Hi from Kate Travers. 1:16 – Chuck: Background? 2:20 – Kate gives her background. 2:30 – Chuck: We had another Flatiron alum from an extra show. 2:44 – Kate: Yeah – she’s great! 2:48 – Chuck: Flatiron mostly focused on Ruby and JavaScript. Has that changed or? 3:02 – Kate: For the students we are teaching the Rails focus on the backend and React on the frontend. Times might be changing. What else is out there for functional curriculum? Our lead engineer is super motivated introducing some Elixir. Our engineering team might be the first to go in that arena. It would be absolutely fantastic to 4:02 – Chuck: Awesome! I would like to see the boot camps take on Elixir. 4:15 – Kate: Yeah, there are many benefits of doing that. 4:57 – Chuck: You see some Reactive, some... It is interesting to see how it comes together and 5:16 – Kate: Yeah we see this as a support – delivery of curriculum. When you start out you are writing in a functional style. You are essentially writing TLI scripts – functional manner. Now in the curriculum we are training people to think, and to get away from that script-way, and think in terms of objects. 6:11 – Panelist: I think that is interesting. Some of the difficulty of teaching Elixir is to UNLEARN some of their past education. Start teaching people FUNCTIONAL, might help. 7:04 – Chuck: I have been starting a new project... What is going on here? Oh yeah I have to think about it. 7:20 – Kate: Yes. We have spun up – we have one core Elixir project. We have been on that for a year. We have spun up some smaller projects. On these projects this is the first time these people have used Elixir. It is interesting to see the difficulties that they are seeing for the first time. 8:09 – Chuck: I want to talk to adoption for a bit. So as your school has made this transition, where are you seeing the (first of all) where is it easy to get buy in. How did Elixir get into Flatiron? 9:06 – Kate: It is not apart of the school’s curriculum. How we started using Elixir was because our technical lead he is super loud / elegant voice for this language. Elixir might solve some of the problems that we were facing. When we adopt new tech it’s because we have thought about it heavily. We don’t adopt new technologies “just because”. The perfect opportunity came up, so this lead into why and how Flatiron started using Elixir. Kate goes into more detail. 15:24 – Chuck: Learn.io – check out outside of the school? 15:35 – Kate: Yep! There is even some interview prep; also, intro to Ruby, intro to JavaScript, and someday intro to Elixir? 16:06 – Chuck: As you brining people into this how do you transfer them to Ruby to Elixir? Do you throw them into the deep end? 16:26 – Kate: Sure! If someone is interested we will. It is something our team tries to prioritize. Kate goes into more detail. 18:43 – Kate: We didn’t expect for these book clubs to keep going. We will do a little workshop as part of book club. 19:18 – Panelist: Question to Kate. 19:25 – Kate: Yes, so everyone has a NEW lead each week. Folks of ALL different experience levels. What is different about our team is that we have tons of people who LOVE to blog. If you check-it out as they are learning Elixir they are writing posts. 20:21 – Question. 20:29 – Kate answers the question. 20:49 – Chuck. 20:55 – Kate: Steven suggested a new way to cement the things you are learning. 21:28 – Chuck: Yeah – Flatiron labs. Now that I have been playing with Elixir with pattern matching. At first it’s scary stuff. 21:49 – Kate: It is a head-trip. 22:00 – Chuck: ...wait...wait... 22:10 – Kate: Multiple binding? 22:16 – Panelist: My first introduction to outer matching was seeing a... 22:39 – Kate: Great first introduction. Not the textbook example, you will get to see the real-world situation. Yeah that is a really, really good example. 23:05 – Panelist: Pattern matching for me became a superpower! It was my first real love of the language; before concurrency, and others. Pattern matching helped with a lot of the pains that I wouldn’t have to encounter. You are poking this big object to figure it out. Then it’s easier because if the shape matches, then it matches. Mental flip – and I get it! It felt like a superpower. I liked your talk, Kate, about pattern matching. 24:41 – Kate: Yeah, totally. Pattern matching. Like learning a musical instrument like a guitar. When you start learning something like this you have these high ambitions. You are learning to be a rock star and you want to be David Bowie. But when you start you couldn’t be further away from that goal. At the beginning you are learning chords and it’s so easy to think: “I am terrible, I suck...” you quit and never keep going. To prevent this you need a hook to keep you going. You just need to learn that really sick rift. Oh yeah, NOW I can start seeing my rock star abilities; same thing for Elixir. Pattern matching was my really sick rift. 27:38 – Panelist chimes-in. You have that excitement about the new language. But they get frustrated because they are a beginner. I do think that you nailed it there. If people can latch onto something fairly quickly, then it gives them a reason to keep coming back to learn more and more. 28:25 – Kate continues this conversation. 28:48 – Panelist. 28:54 – Advertisement – Code Badges! 29:32 – Chuck: Most important / interesting thing you’ve learned about pattern matching? 29:48 – Kate: It was the different things you can do with... 30:23 – Kate: The concept is that Elixir provides... 31:42 – Chuck: I didn’t know that you could do that! 31:56 – Kate: The benefit only comes from legibility. 32:13 – Panelist: Guard clauses and pattern matching. I think it would be a mess if I weren’t use Elixir. 32:31 – Kate: Yes, definitely. 33:10 – Panelist: Yes, my first project with Elixir... 34:47 – People should go and see your talk and it’s in the links. 35:00 – Kate: Thanks! Kate talks about dodging bullets and code.  36:04 – Chuck: have you seen other languages using/trying to use Pattern matching? 36:10 – Kate: Yeah, there are talks about Ruby and JavaScript for introducing proper pattern matching in BOTH languages. Ruby is interesting. I don’t know how much traction we have on these, but people seem really into program matching. 36:36 – Panelist: Yeah, I think people come to Elixir and see pattern matching and they get excited. 36:55 – Kate: Yeah, I would be interested to see if the proposals go through or not. There is a conference on my WATCH LIST and I want to see more about it. 37:26 – Panelist: It started off as a prologue that’s what you need. 37:37 – Kate: If it wasn’t designed that way in the beginning it will be a problem. If it’s not apart of the system in the beginning then it could be a problem. 38:14 – Chuck: Yeah, the flipside is... 38:34 – Panelists: I don’t know. 38:44 – Panelist: One of my concerns is object oriented programming. I imagine (nightmare) pattern matching in Ruby and all match onto this object – after it’s there – it’s inside my function – runs another thread – comes back to me – that object is modified and now it’s there, and not be completely invalid. It’s not RUBY anymore. 39:36 – Panelist: Pattern matching could bring them over and bring them over the gap. I am worried that if this is more widespread then we will hit a much worse. 40:06 – Kate and Panel: Yep! 40:12 – Chuck: Anything else about pattern matching and/or adopting Elixir? 40:18 – Kate: I don’t want to rush into this too quickly, but if we are on the topic of bringing people to Elixir. It came up at this conference. Ruby Rails coming over – RR refugees. The question that they post: People are hyped about Elixir about Phoenix. What is going to be the thing that brings people over? 41:15 – Panelist answers Kate’s question. 41:29 – You can’t do live Vue in other languages. If you are really experienced... 42:08 – Chuck: You have to learn 2 technologies. You can adopt a frontend and backend technology and you can get SOME of that. I know a lot of people are invested in the frontend technology or the backend. I think that is how you are going to convert. 42:43: Panelist chimes-in. Panelist’s friend asks: Is it an appropriate tool? 43:30 – Kate: Our team is super excited about it. Our team has mostly been working on the backend. We need to deliver on the frontend with updates. What if we had it – out of the box with Phoenix? Yeah people are over the moon. 44:06 – Chuck talks about what he is using. What if I didn’t have to do any of that garbage? 44:23 – Panelist: It is a NICE experience when you have to do it. 44:38 – Chuck: If you need a killer feature for React or Vue – why can’t you build a frontend... 45:00 – Panelist adds in his comments/thoughts. 45:30 – Chuck: Anything else? 45:38 – Picks! Links: Flatiron School Our Courses – Flatiron School How We Built the Learn IDE in Browser – Medium Flatiron Labs Elixir – Flatiron Labs Elixir – Guards Kate Travers Kate Travers’ “Pattern Matching in Elixir” (3/14/18) Kate Travers’ Dev.to Kate Travers’ Twitter Kate Travers’ Talk on YouTube: “Pattern Matching: The Gateway to Loving Elixir – Code Elixir LDN 2018” Kate Travers’ Code Sync Ruby Elixir JavaScript Vue React Sponsors: Get a Coder Job Digital Ocean Code Badges Cache Fly Picks: Mark Ericksen Value Teach something to someone else. It helps you grow. Book - Leadership and Self Deception Josh Adams Ethdenver Charles SCALE Brunch Kate breakinto.tech Kusama: Infinity

Panel: Charles Max Wood Mark Ericksen Josh Adams Special Guest: Kate Travers In this episode of Elixir Mix, the panel talks to Kate Travers who was a student/apprentice with the Flatiron School and now is on staff as a software engineer. The panel and Kate talk about adopting Elixir at the Flatiron School and Pattern Matching. Watch Kate’s talks about the topic; links to these talks can be found below. Show Topics: 1:08– Hi from Kate Travers. 1:16 – Chuck: Background? 2:20 – Kate gives her background. 2:30 – Chuck: We had another Flatiron alum from an extra show. 2:44 – Kate: Yeah – she’s great! 2:48 – Chuck: Flatiron mostly focused on Ruby and JavaScript. Has that changed or? 3:02 – Kate: For the students we are teaching the Rails focus on the backend and React on the frontend. Times might be changing. What else is out there for functional curriculum? Our lead engineer is super motivated introducing some Elixir. Our engineering team might be the first to go in that arena. It would be absolutely fantastic to 4:02 – Chuck: Awesome! I would like to see the boot camps take on Elixir. 4:15 – Kate: Yeah, there are many benefits of doing that. 4:57 – Chuck: You see some Reactive, some... It is interesting to see how it comes together and 5:16 – Kate: Yeah we see this as a support – delivery of curriculum. When you start out you are writing in a functional style. You are essentially writing TLI scripts – functional manner. Now in the curriculum we are training people to think, and to get away from that script-way, and think in terms of objects. 6:11 – Panelist: I think that is interesting. Some of the difficulty of teaching Elixir is to UNLEARN some of their past education. Start teaching people FUNCTIONAL, might help. 7:04 – Chuck: I have been starting a new project... What is going on here? Oh yeah I have to think about it. 7:20 – Kate: Yes. We have spun up – we have one core Elixir project. We have been on that for a year. We have spun up some smaller projects. On these projects this is the first time these people have used Elixir. It is interesting to see the difficulties that they are seeing for the first time. 8:09 – Chuck: I want to talk to adoption for a bit. So as your school has made this transition, where are you seeing the (first of all) where is it easy to get buy in. How did Elixir get into Flatiron? 9:06 – Kate: It is not apart of the school’s curriculum. How we started using Elixir was because our technical lead he is super loud / elegant voice for this language. Elixir might solve some of the problems that we were facing. When we adopt new tech it’s because we have thought about it heavily. We don’t adopt new technologies “just because”. The perfect opportunity came up, so this lead into why and how Flatiron started using Elixir. Kate goes into more detail. 15:24 – Chuck: Learn.io – check out outside of the school? 15:35 – Kate: Yep! There is even some interview prep; also, intro to Ruby, intro to JavaScript, and someday intro to Elixir? 16:06 – Chuck: As you brining people into this how do you transfer them to Ruby to Elixir? Do you throw them into the deep end? 16:26 – Kate: Sure! If someone is interested we will. It is something our team tries to prioritize. Kate goes into more detail. 18:43 – Kate: We didn’t expect for these book clubs to keep going. We will do a little workshop as part of book club. 19:18 – Panelist: Question to Kate. 19:25 – Kate: Yes, so everyone has a NEW lead each week. Folks of ALL different experience levels. What is different about our team is that we have tons of people who LOVE to blog. If you check-it out as they are learning Elixir they are writing posts. 20:21 – Question. 20:29 – Kate answers the question. 20:49 – Chuck. 20:55 – Kate: Steven suggested a new way to cement the things you are learning. 21:28 – Chuck: Yeah – Flatiron labs. Now that I have been playing with Elixir with pattern matching. At first it’s scary stuff. 21:49 – Kate: It is a head-trip. 22:00 – Chuck: ...wait...wait... 22:10 – Kate: Multiple binding? 22:16 – Panelist: My first introduction to outer matching was seeing a... 22:39 – Kate: Great first introduction. Not the textbook example, you will get to see the real-world situation. Yeah that is a really, really good example. 23:05 – Panelist: Pattern matching for me became a superpower! It was my first real love of the language; before concurrency, and others. Pattern matching helped with a lot of the pains that I wouldn’t have to encounter. You are poking this big object to figure it out. Then it’s easier because if the shape matches, then it matches. Mental flip – and I get it! It felt like a superpower. I liked your talk, Kate, about pattern matching. 24:41 – Kate: Yeah, totally. Pattern matching. Like learning a musical instrument like a guitar. When you start learning something like this you have these high ambitions. You are learning to be a rock star and you want to be David Bowie. But when you start you couldn’t be further away from that goal. At the beginning you are learning chords and it’s so easy to think: “I am terrible, I suck...” you quit and never keep going. To prevent this you need a hook to keep you going. You just need to learn that really sick rift. Oh yeah, NOW I can start seeing my rock star abilities; same thing for Elixir. Pattern matching was my really sick rift. 27:38 – Panelist chimes-in. You have that excitement about the new language. But they get frustrated because they are a beginner. I do think that you nailed it there. If people can latch onto something fairly quickly, then it gives them a reason to keep coming back to learn more and more. 28:25 – Kate continues this conversation. 28:48 – Panelist. 28:54 – Advertisement – Code Badges! 29:32 – Chuck: Most important / interesting thing you’ve learned about pattern matching? 29:48 – Kate: It was the different things you can do with... 30:23 – Kate: The concept is that Elixir provides... 31:42 – Chuck: I didn’t know that you could do that! 31:56 – Kate: The benefit only comes from legibility. 32:13 – Panelist: Guard clauses and pattern matching. I think it would be a mess if I weren’t use Elixir. 32:31 – Kate: Yes, definitely. 33:10 – Panelist: Yes, my first project with Elixir... 34:47 – People should go and see your talk and it’s in the links. 35:00 – Kate: Thanks! Kate talks about dodging bullets and code.  36:04 – Chuck: have you seen other languages using/trying to use Pattern matching? 36:10 – Kate: Yeah, there are talks about Ruby and JavaScript for introducing proper pattern matching in BOTH languages. Ruby is interesting. I don’t know how much traction we have on these, but people seem really into program matching. 36:36 – Panelist: Yeah, I think people come to Elixir and see pattern matching and they get excited. 36:55 – Kate: Yeah, I would be interested to see if the proposals go through or not. There is a conference on my WATCH LIST and I want to see more about it. 37:26 – Panelist: It started off as a prologue that’s what you need. 37:37 – Kate: If it wasn’t designed that way in the beginning it will be a problem. If it’s not apart of the system in the beginning then it could be a problem. 38:14 – Chuck: Yeah, the flipside is... 38:34 – Panelists: I don’t know. 38:44 – Panelist: One of my concerns is object oriented programming. I imagine (nightmare) pattern matching in Ruby and all match onto this object – after it’s there – it’s inside my function – runs another thread – comes back to me – that object is modified and now it’s there, and not be completely invalid. It’s not RUBY anymore. 39:36 – Panelist: Pattern matching could bring them over and bring them over the gap. I am worried that if this is more widespread then we will hit a much worse. 40:06 – Kate and Panel: Yep! 40:12 – Chuck: Anything else about pattern matching and/or adopting Elixir? 40:18 – Kate: I don’t want to rush into this too quickly, but if we are on the topic of bringing people to Elixir. It came up at this conference. Ruby Rails coming over – RR refugees. The question that they post: People are hyped about Elixir about Phoenix. What is going to be the thing that brings people over? 41:15 – Panelist answers Kate’s question. 41:29 – You can’t do live Vue in other languages. If you are really experienced... 42:08 – Chuck: You have to learn 2 technologies. You can adopt a frontend and backend technology and you can get SOME of that. I know a lot of people are invested in the frontend technology or the backend. I think that is how you are going to convert. 42:43: Panelist chimes-in. Panelist’s friend asks: Is it an appropriate tool? 43:30 – Kate: Our team is super excited about it. Our team has mostly been working on the backend. We need to deliver on the frontend with updates. What if we had it – out of the box with Phoenix? Yeah people are over the moon. 44:06 – Chuck talks about what he is using. What if I didn’t have to do any of that garbage? 44:23 – Panelist: It is a NICE experience when you have to do it. 44:38 – Chuck: If you need a killer feature for React or Vue – why can’t you build a frontend... 45:00 – Panelist adds in his comments/thoughts. 45:30 – Chuck: Anything else? 45:38 – Picks! Links: Flatiron School Our Courses – Flatiron School How We Built the Learn IDE in Browser – Medium Flatiron Labs Elixir – Flatiron Labs Elixir – Guards Kate Travers Kate Travers’ “Pattern Matching in Elixir” (3/14/18) Kate Travers’ Dev.to Kate Travers’ Twitter Kate Travers’ Talk on YouTube: “Pattern Matching: The Gateway to Loving Elixir – Code Elixir LDN 2018” Kate Travers’ Code Sync Ruby Elixir JavaScript Vue React Sponsors: Get a Coder Job Digital Ocean Code Badges Cache Fly Picks: Mark Ericksen Value Teach something to someone else. It helps you grow. Book - Leadership and Self Deception Josh Adams Ethdenver Charles SCALE Brunch Kate breakinto.tech Kusama: Infinity

This week we are deconstructing our conversation from last week with Carrie Sharpe.  Here’s that episode.  Carrie is a mom of 5, who is navigating “older” children as her first child prepares to leave the nest. Liz and Kate discuss: Bonuses of having older children. How children can contribute to the household, using incentives! Carrie’s tips for keeping her relationship with her husband strong. Where you can find time for your relationship when you have young kids. Letting go of the guilt to go on date night. How partnership is work. Here’s more more about Carrie’s son (Maverick’s) birth & harrowing NICU journey.   Quotables: “We all get stuck in a rut, we need to remember to re-evaluate.” - Kate “It is in those times of crisis that brings challenges and strengths to the forefront.” - Liz “It’s always a work in progress.” - Liz “Marriage is portrayed as blissful all the time, and it’s NOT.  There are really hard times you need to work through.” - Kate   MORE FROM CARRIE: Follow Carrie on Facebook. Follow Carrie on Instagram. Follow Carrie on Twitter.   MORE FROM MOM DECONSTRUCTED: Support this podcast on Patreon. Leave a review on ITunes here. Sign up for our newsletter here. Follow Mom Deconstructed on Facebook. Follow Mom Deconstructed on Instagram. Follow Mom Deconstructed on Twitter.   MORE FROM KATE: Kate Turza, Postpartum Doula Follow Kate on Facebook Join Kate’s Facebook Group, Reality Tykes   MORE FROM LIZ: Mom...In The Works Follow Liz on Facebook Follow Liz on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On the first episode of Royally Obsessed, the girls discuss Meghan Markle's kidnap training by the Royal Army’s SAS regiment, as they stage a mock kidnapping and school the duchess to be on how to handle a life threatening situation. Also, the trailer for the Harry & Megan Lifetime movie was released and Kaitlin and Lisa are giddy over what it teases. Plus, are Charles and Camilla jealous of William and Kate? It's all right here on Royally Obsessed!

How Kate Fisher found herself at the brink of death, having to choose between this world and the next. Plus one of the best foods to feel grounded: for keeping a level head and making good decisions(!) Hi everybody, I'm Barbara Fernandez, the Rocking Raw Chef, here with my Clean Food, Dirty Stories: one to entertain, the other to inspire.I help people stamp out stress, depression and fatigue over at RockingRawChef.com, and today's title is:This world...Or AnotherIn addition to this story, at the end of this episode I'll share with you one of the best foods to feel grounded – in other words, to help us stay clear-headed and even make better decisions in our lives.OK enough hints from me, I'm sure you have no idea what that food is...or maybe you do, so let's get on with the story.Our guest, Kate FisherI am super excited to be joined here today for our story by Kate Fisher. Kate is a shamanic practitioner who specialises in helping others to connect with the power that is already within them. She is also an artist, and she works with drums, paint and clay to create shamanic tools, paintings and ceramics. And she works with people not only face to face, but also at a distance which I think is very cool. She has a pretty incredible story to share which I think you're going to love!So Kate, welcome to the Clean Food, Dirty Stories podcast!Kate: Thanks Barbara.Me: Yeah, it's great to have you. I'm looking forward to sharing your story.Kate's storySo you work in Norfolk, you live in Kent, but do you have a lot of trees surrounding you now? Because I know that you spent a lot of your childhood in trees, is that what you told me? Is that where your story begins?Kate: Yeah, it kind of is, I was much more into sitting in trees and hanging out there and not really with the other kids. It just felt calming and I later found out that what was actually happening was that I was speaking with the tree deities and the tree spirits themselves. Me: So like when most kids had imaginary friends, like little playmates and stuff, then you just had your playmates that were like in the trees and nature spirits and everything.That's really cool, when I was little actually, I didn't play with the other kids either. I was with them but I was a tiger roaring and crawling on the floor. So there were no nature spirits for me, just a bunch of crawling around.On to herbalismAt one point you studied herbalism, is that right? How did you come to study that?Kate: Well, I began studying it. After doing my art degree, I actually got a job in Neal's Yard Remedies in Norwich. And so that just kind of brought me back to plants and their uses. The medicinal uses were the sort of thing I was drawn to. I was going to move to Australia to do the whole course of naturopathy. There was something still missing from that for me. So from that I actually found magical herbalism.Me: Okay.Kate: Yeah, so that's kind of like hedge witchcraft. It's understanding that everything has an energy and you can use that energy to help heal and help rebalance.Me: I know about wild plants, you know, and collecting wild plants and just eating them because they taste really good, and I know that nettles for example are really good for arthritis, just little things that you kind of pick up. But that's kind of all I know. So is it like making teas for people and poultices and things like that out of plants and stuff?Kate: No, no, it's purely energetic, so it's basically like spellcasting.Me: OK.Magic herbalism, then on to the PhilippinesKate: So you would use certain herbs and plants that have certain attributes and they often correspond with the medicinal uses as well. And you'd kind of enchant them and then you'd make them into little sachets to hand to people and once they'd got their use from it, they would bury it. It was always just for an energetic purpose.Me: Oh OK.Kate: It's like the old wives' tale of putting certain things above the door so things can't come in.Me: I get it. OK. So you were doing herbalism but then I think you stopped, is that right, and you moved to the Philippines? Is that right?Kate: Yeah, that's right. So magical herbalism still wasn't doing it for me and I still felt there was something more. And I came across a book and it was called Chance Spirit Shamanism, and this just sent me off! I knew that I had to do something with this because it would take me deeper into that plant realm. The way I actually got to the Philippines was through my ceramics, with a job as a teacher over there.Manila and the Saturn returnMe: How did you get that job? That's really cool.Kate: A Filipino lady, her family ran the college there and she approached me and asked if I would teach there.Me: Wow!Kate: Unfortunately it was in Manila and for me that was just too busy. It's a really built city with really rich and really poor areas. I found this place called Bahay Kalipay which means the House of Happiness. So I went there, I volunteered and from there I taught this process called The Inner Dance, and this was precisely when my Saturn return hit. I had just turned 28 and I decided to drop everything, I sold everything that I owned in England basically, and I decided to move to the Philippines.Kate's Saturn ReturnMe: Wow. So can you just...sorry, can you explain to people, some people that may not know, what is a Saturn return and why does it just – cause I've experienced one too – what is a Saturn return and why does it turn your life upside down?Kate: Yeah, well, OK. The Saturn return is...Saturn's in a certain place in the night sky and what happens is when that then comes around which obviously it takes 28 to 30 years to come round in your astrological chart, that changes everything. You're then kind of pushed or encouraged onto a path that you should have been taking that you may have been diverted from. Some people's is really turbulent, other people it can be quite free flowing depending on what their life path life has taken. And then this happens again normally in women's time, it's normally around the menopause.Me: Well it would be like 28 years later, right?Kate: Exactly, yeah, it's on that time scale. So it really can turn your life upside down because Saturn's known as the teacher. If you haven't learned your lessons, you're gonna learn them!Why the PhilippinesMe: Yup! I've experienced that so I know exactly what you mean. Yeah, so it can be quite big life changes and stuff, right? What made you decide to move to the Philippines?Kate: Well, in all honesty a man.Me: (laughs) As so often happens...Kate: And he worked at the retreat center that I went to. Yeah, I kind of knew that it wasn't gonna work out but I'm always this kind of romantic person, I'm just gonna follow my heart...I loved it there anyway because it was just so beautiful and I felt so held there, just on the land.Me: Yeah. So you moved to the Philippines, so if you moved because of him, did you stay with him and then, like, what happened?Releasing inner blocksKate: Well, I think I moved in with him to begin with, him and his family. And then I went back to work at the retreat center for meditation and the inner dance which is kind of meditative. It allows the flow of energy and any blockages to come out, it can be quite cathartic and transformative in itself. So I went back there and lived there, and I did that for 8 months. I was looking for land to buy as well.Me: So you were gonna buy land in the Philippines? That's very cool. You said at one point that you had a kind of like dark night of the soul, was that related to the guy? Or...Kate: It was all, you know, a whole lump of stuff rolled in together (laughs). That's what happens, isn't it?Me: All at the same time, of course, yeah.Crying in paradiseKate: All at the same time. So yeah, for me, I was in paradise but I was crying my eyes out every day.Me: Oh!Kate: Yeah, and it was just this kind of ultimate depression, but this was something different, it was a transformative kind of time. And I ended up not really seeing the point in life, so I went from, you know, being on a real high and feeling the connection between all things and all of this and then just fell apart and thought, “Well, if everything is nothing and nothing is everything, then what's the point?”Me: Oh, yeah, I've felt like that before so I can relate, yeah. Wow.From the Philippines to PeruMe: And so from there, how did you...you said that you then went to Peru, right? So how did you go from the Philippines to Peru? Did you just one day up and decide to leave, or was there a specific incident where you thought 'OK I've had enough, I'm going to leave now'? Or...Kate: Well I, I'd gone to America to visit my friends over there and then while I was there I phoned this person...Me: Somebody in Peru?Kate: No, sorry, I phoned my boyfriend at the time. Yeah, and he ended up going “Oh I've decided I'm going to be a Peace Pilgrim”.Me: A Peace Pilgrim? What's that?Kate: So it's someone who walks around without anything, but just goes spreading peace and basically relies on anyone around them to support them. He said “This is my highest excitement”. So I was like, “OK, fine”. Obviously I was a bit heartbroken because I'd just travelled the other side of the world, but it made me suddenly realize that I wasn't following my highest excitement. So I thought “OK, what's happening right now? Where's the mother of all plant learnings?” And it's happening in Peru, with Ayahuasca, with Huachuma... Ayahuasca and HuachumaMe: What's huachuma? I mean, I know Ayahuasca and in fact I spoke about that in a previous episode, but what's huachuma?Kate: Huachuma is also known as San Pedro. San Pedro was the Catholic name they gave when they kind of came over to the South Americas. Huachuma is the original name for it. It's a cactus that is mescalin-based, so it's similar to the peyote which is a mescalin-based medicine.Me: Oh OK. So it's a similar kind of experience with...like a journey like you would do as if you were taking Ayahuasca but you're taking Huachuma?Kate: It's similar, yeah. Huachuma's much more about the earth and less cosmic. Ayahuasca is out there, attaching to everything that is. Huachuma's about the heart, about connecting back to the earth.Me: Wow. OK, so you did both of those when you were there?Kate: Yeah, that's right, so I spent 6 months being an apprentice to both of those plants.Me: Oh wow! So now are you able to perform Ayahuasca and Huachuma ceremonies for other people?Kate: I believe I can hold ceremony for Huachuma for other people. With Ayahuasca I decided that I'm just always going to be her apprentice (laughs). I just don't see how people hold space for that, it's such a powerful thing.Temazcals (sweat lodges)Me: OK. So you did those, and you also mentioned temazcals, you know, the sweat lodges, what were those like?Kate: It's really magical.So for somebody who doesn't, who doesn't know about a temazcal, can you say a little bit about like what it is? Because I've done one, but not everybody knows about it, right? Could you say a little bit about like what it is and what happens and why you might want to do a sweat lodge?Kate: OK. It's a really sacred ceremony and our ancestors have always used it to cleanse, to rebirth. To go into those sweat lodges is like going back into the mother's womb. You go in there with thanks, knowing what you want to get rid of or what you want to transition into. And you bless the rocks which are put into a sacred fire.Me: Sacred fire?Kate: Yes. They then heat those for several hours and then you will go into the lodge. You normally go through about four, yeah, four rounds. They'll bring in a certain number of rocks, and then water is poured onto the rocks once the door is closed.Me: And it gets really, really hot, I remember.Kate: It does. But it builds, it's not like going into a sauna. Your body gradually kind of gets used to it until it gets so hot that you're just like “Oh no I can't do this!” But quite often, we always say that the heat is your friend. Because that heat is sometimes not physical heat, it's sometimes you know, coming up against maybe a blockage of the energy of the thing that you're trying to shift, so if you can, stay in.The eyebrow of the Peruvian jungleMe: And so how did you...how did you go from doing the sweat lodges and the Ayahuasca and Huachuma ceremonies to the jungle? Cause you said that you were...I know that you mentioned to me that you were in the jungle with some friends and you had a pretty scary experience there. Can you say a little bit about like how you came to be there, and what happened?Kate: Yeah, definitely.I was a, I suppose an assistant to the woman that owned the retreat center. And we'd become really good friends because we obviously worked really closely together. We were offered a piece of land possibly in a part of the jungle called Manu which is known as the eyebrow of the jungle of Peru. So we went to visit, and our friend who also went with us, he was also an Andean priest. He went and hired a boat and took us to this special island which had quite rare breeds of certain animals, mammals and things. So he takes us over there and we're just so excited to see a different part and see rare species. Onto the land, you know you just start walking around and admiring things and I think it was about a third of the way around this island and all of a sudden something hit me.When the jungle gets angryKate: It felt like I'd suddenly started menstruating but it wasn't that time, it felt like all of my guts were just turning around. I just suddenly went white. Me: Wow!Kate: Literally it just felt like, I don't know, I could have eaten something that didn't agree with me, all that kind of stuff. So my friend tried to do an echo cleansing on me. Now all that did - this is the dirty part of the story – was give me diarrhea. It was awful. My body was emptying, everything was too heavy. I was getting rid of everything. It was really quite scary as it progressed.And then this feeling came over me that the jungle was angry. There was always this element of kind of doubt, skepticism I guess.Getting lost in another worldBut I was about to get lost in another world. The jungle felt like it was pulling me. The world that I knew, that part of the jungle that I was seeing with my physical eyes was disappearing. Me: Wow! That's scary!Kate: Terrifying. And interesting at the same time.Me: Yeah, kind of like 'this is really scary but this is really cool!'Kate: I mean I got really scared up until the point where I thought, 'OK, maybe I'm going to leave this other world that I know and I'm gonna be taken to another world'. And when I reached that level of acceptance, you know, that strange place of like 'OK this is just happening', I told my friends to go on without me. I said, “This is where I stop”. And it was like, it was, I don't know, it was like I was disappearing.Me: Wow.Kate: Yeah, I...after feeling scared it was suddenly this peace that took over. But then my friends became scared because they realized how real this had become. You know, they couldn't just leave me in the jungle.Me: Yeah.Kate: And the Andean priest, he was suddenly panicking around me. He was saying in Spanish, in Quechua, panicking about “Oh I haven't done it, I haven't done it, I haven't done it!” He was going on about the ritual or the ceremony that we were supposed to do when we arrived at this land.A hurried ceremonyKate: And so all of a sudden he's scrambling in his pockets to get things out and I was just flopped on the ground at this point and I had no idea what was going on around me other than his scrambling. He got out the cocoa leaves and he made like a little fan of these and he started doing ceremony. And he was doing all these different things around me but I didn't have any awareness to be able to learn or witness or anything, it was like I was being absorbed into the jungle floor.The next thing I know he's yanking me up off the ground saying “Stamp on the floor! Stamp on the floor!” Like this. And I was just like “I can't do it, I can't even lift my leg,” like I had nothing left, no physical ability whatsoever. But he was so persistent I just went and I just, I just kind of just flopped my foot on this space and I later found out that he'd buried the cocoa leaves there.And as I touched my foot down, something happened and I felt a little bit stronger. So then he went, “Again!” I stamped again a little bit harder with the strength that I'd found. And he said, “Again!” I stamped my foot even harder, and every time we did this, my energy started coming back and my color started coming back and I felt myself being drawn in, like my energy bodies being drawn back into this physical body. Until we'd done it enough that they felt comfortable with us making our way away from there.Me: Wow. Yeah, and then you just left at that point? Were you supposed to stay longer?Kate: I had to lay there while they went off in the boat for a while so I had to lay in the jungle for a bit and stop. Just to kind of recoup and make sure that I'd gathered all the parts of me back together I think. Me: Yeah, of course, yeah.Fear as teacherKate: And I gave my thanks and you know, and I said, “Sorry for not knowing better”. I should have known better, that's what I was there to learn, you know. How to respect these places.Me: Yeah, but you were there to learn. I would have thought the Andean priest would have... I mean, I would have been blaming him! (laughs) Right? Wasn't he kind of there to, you know, to guide you and look after you? I mean I would have been like, “Dude you forgot something! Look what happened to me!” No?Kate: Well, I suppose, but I didn't see things that way at that time. I kind of overtook responsibility if that makes sense. But I gave my thanks to the jungle at that point because that's when my skepticism left and I really started to trust that Spirit is there to guide. And it really showed me its strength, and the only way it could do that was through fear.Me: Wow.Kate: Yeah, I was really, really grateful to have learned that lesson because without that I wouldn't be able to practice, you know, the techniques that I do today.Me: I bet the Andean priest learned a lot too, right? I bet he never did that again! (laughs) Right?Kate: (laughs) I don't think so!Me: Almost killed a tourist, can you imagine? Oh my goodness. Wow!What Kate does todaySo then you said that that experience helped you do the techniques that you do today, so how? Like, how come? What was it about that particular experience and what did you take from there I guess is what I want to ask, that you now use? Yeah, that you use now?Kate: Well it's just the level of trust.Me: Ah, OK. That makes sense.Kate: When I'm doing the healings or ceremony or anything, I endeavour obviously – I mean sometimes ego gets in the way and makes you feel small. But that's quite rare these days. I just allow Spirit and the ancestors to guide me.Me: Yup. Yeah, because you have that trust now thanks to your experience in the jungle. I get it, yeah. Wow!So then, yeah, what do you do now to help other people? Because I know you do lots of different things, do you want to say a little bit about that?Kate: Yeah, well the main thing that I endeavour to do, like anyone that I come across I try and support and empower. Even if it's the smallest thing. And give people that different perspective on themselves. I think we're so made to feel belittled and that we think that, you know, to think good of ourselves is to be arrogant. But actually we need to come to a space where we can be comfortable and love ourselves without that. Me: Yeah.Kate: It's really hard to explain! I lead retreats and...Finding the Wild WomanMe: So what kinds of things do you do at the retreats? For example, do you take people on shamanic journeys as a group? Kate: So for the retreats, what I focus on at the moment is women. And I do this alongside a lovely lady called Amy who runs SoulShine social enterprise and we, well we call it Finding the Wild Woman. And it's all about rewilding, so finding that part of you that's been repressed through, you know, all the things that we should and shouldn't do and expressing your authentic self.Me: Oh I like the sound of that, yup!Kate: So we do all sorts of things.Me: Wow, that sounds quite fun.Kate: Yeah, we use all the different elements as well. So you know, we run through kind of water, earth, fire, air, spirit...so people can connect back with those. The very base elements of this world.Me: Wow, that's very cool.Individual help, even at a distanceMe: So you do those at the retreats, and then I think you said for individual people you help them find balance and things? Like what do you do for individuals? Because I know you also said you do some things at a distance as well. Kate: Yeah, so whether it's distance or whether people are there, I'll connect with them and I'll allow Spirit and ancestors again to work through me. I use my drum, rattle, feathers, anything. I always ask if the person's comfortable with it. Yeah, and then I use the vibe to kind of realign, as everything's made of vibration. The intention is to realign those things, on any level that person wants to work.Me: OK. So do people normally come to you...yeah I would imagine people would come to you with a really specific problem, right? Can it be any kind of problem? Like, I don't know, like everything from physical problems like physical ailments to maybe emotional problems or mental problems? Kate: Yeah, definitely.Me: So a bit of everything. Super! OKKate: The most common tends to be physical or emotional, but actually you find out that they're all interlinked so you just follow that path until...Me: Yeah, I know what you mean. Training for the Celtic sweat lodgeMe: So do you run sweat lodges? Do you use that tool in your work at all?Kate: I'm not running them yet, I'm gonna do another 2 years learning the Celtic lodge.Me: So how long does it take then to train to learn the Celtic sweat lodges?Kate: Well, I'm taking three years to do it.Me: Three years, OK. Is that your choice to do it over a longer period?Kate: Yeah, I know that you can learn the practicalities in a couple of weekends, but to have the experience of actually supporting people through that process...Me: Oh yeah, that's the biggest bit, yeah.Kate: It's a very different ballgame.My own experience in a sweat lodgeMe: Yeah, of course, cause I know, I mean I know for me that when I did a sweat lodge, yeah it was years ago now. And at the time I was...I was a total mess!And so when it got really, really hot, I could feel that kind of...how can I describe it? It was kind of like as if there was a well at the bottom of my being that was filled with all these like dark stuff. You know, fears and things like that that never got to come up to the surface, you know? That never got acknowledged.Just like really primal stuff, you know, almost as if you could tap into your most primal fears because there was no cultural barrier. There was no mental barrier, you know.You were just so hot that your mind...I mean for me my mind almost just left my body really because it was just so hot. And I thought that was...that was quite an amazing experience.I mean for me I was like wow! It was scary but it was also really cool and I can imagine that for some people... I mean, I like to think that I'm a pretty strong cookie but I imagine it would be scary for people to come to grips with what they find and to have to kind of, yeah, deal with that. I mean if they uncover something they didn't know about themselves before, maybe something that's super scary, then yeah I would imagine you have to have the tools to deal with that, right?Kate: That's right, yeah. You've got to be able to support people after they've kind of gone through the sweat lodge process. Like you say, sometimes people are left with things that they need to kind of then kind of speak through or go into a bit more.Me: Wow, yeah. But I'd definitely say better out than in, right? All that stuff.Where to find KateKate thank you so much for coming on to share your story. There's a friend of mine that also mentioned that when you hold any kind of retreat or workshop or any kind of event in nature, she said just ask the spirits there for permission so you're on their terrain as it were. So that's a really good example of what can happen if you don't, right? I'll have to tell her about it. Well, I'll have to get her to listen to the episode.But thank you so much for sharing that, I really appreciate it and I'll link to everything that you do below, but do you just want to say where... Where can people find you? What's the easiest way to find you?Kate: Yeah, it's easiest to find me on Facebook at the moment because I'm still working on my website but that's at kfheartwisdom.Me: Super! OK. I'll put the link to your site as well. Is it katefisher.co.uk? Is that right?Kate: Yeah.Me: Thank you so much, I really appreciate it, and I think I'm going to dive into our food tip.Foods to feel groundedAnd it's really funny that there was all this stuff about stamping on the ground and everything because...I mentioned at the beginning of this episode that I would share one of the best foods to feel grounded. And first I do want to kind of emphasize what I mean when we say grounded.When we feel grounded, we feel more connected to the earth. Now this might sound airy-fairy, but it's actually really important. So you can think of feeling grounded as the opposite of scatterbrained. In other words, instead of feeling confused, all over the place, not knowing what to do, when you're grounded you actually have a clarity of purpose. It enables you to not only get things done but to know what those things actually are that you need to do for your own happiness.And believe me, this is really, really important. I speak from very personal experience. The other way that you can think of being grounded is eating foods to feel grounded. It's kind of like getting the benefits of comfort food without gaining weight, if that makes sense. You do get that, yeah, that sense of comfort from these particular foods, but you're eating good food, you know? Rather than junk.And for those of you who want to do some of your own shamanic journeys as Kate did, this particular food that I'm going to talk about can help you stay connected to this world too.So although there are many foods to feel grounded, the ones that I want to mention here, or the one specific one is...squash!Benefits of squashAnd when I say squash, this actually covers a variety of vegetables: so you've got spaghetti squash, summer squash, zucchini, marrow and pumpkin. Those are all types of squash. Gourds as well, those are squash.Squash is one of the oldest foods around – it's been cultivated for at least 10,000 years, and it may look kind of ordinary, but it has a lot of health benefits.Now you may not know this, but squash is listed as anti-fungal, antibacterial and anti-inflammatory! It contains vitamin A, several B vitamins, folates, magnesium, potassium, iron, copper, zinc, manganese, calcium, and beta carotene among other antioxidants.So it's insanely good for a whole host of things, including managing our blood sugar, keeping our lungs healthy, helping keep our eyes sharp and strong, having strong bones, and reducing the risks of many diseases including lung cancer, emphysema and glaucoma, and that's just to name a few.Squash has many other benefits and I'll link to an article in the show notes if you'd like to read more about it.Now however before you decide to start eating bushels of squash, I do have to warn you about one thing. Squash is very good at lowering blood pressure, and if you have low blood pressure already, squash could lower it even further. So if that's you, best to eat other veggies instead. Fortunately there are lots of other alternatives that I do mention in other podcast episodes!How you eat squashNow as to how you eat squash, well there are so many ways to eat it! Most people puree it and make pancakes, or they slice it and fry it. My favorite way to eat it – and if you know me you'll know what that is – it's to spiralize it! I'll link to an article in the show notes where I show you how to do just that. You can make great pasta using squash, and you don't even have to boil it. Plus it's naturally gluten-free, so everyone can eat it!I've also got some delicious recipes that use squash in my 5-Minute Mains recipe ebook that I'll link to as well.So I hope you've enjoyed our story this week!Have YOU got a story to share?And if you've got a crazy, true story to share (and you'd like to know what food could have saved the day or enhanced your particular situation), I'd love to hear from you! Email me at barbara@rockingrawchef.comIf you enjoy my stories and want to hear more, join us and subscribe! I share one amazing, true story a week. And if you've got any questions, just pop them in the comments! And if you're listening on iTunes, do give me a review, that would be awesome.I hope you have an amazing day, thank you so much for being here with me to share in my Clean Food, Dirty Stories. Bye for now!RESOURCESHow to spiralize veggies: http://rockingrawchef.com/what-is-a-spiralizer-and-what-can-it-do-for-me/5-Minute Mains and other recipe ebooks: https://rockingrawchef.com/5-minute-recipes/Foods to feel grounded: https://www.sarahpetrunoshamanism.com/blog/12-foods-for-feeling-grounded/Benefits of squash: https://www.organicfacts.net/health-benefits/fruit/squash.htmlKate's bioKate has studied many esoteric and spiritual practices to a basic level from an early age (13). When her Saturn return began (age 28), Kate moved abroad to study different healing techniques with healers and shaman of Philippines and Peru. She learnt that to know and embrace all parts of yourself is where true healing happens. With a holistic attitude to life and endeavouring to approach life from the heart, Kate believes that all aspects of the self - mind, body and spirit - play a part in the health of the person. Finding balance in all these aspects, we can live to our full potential.Kate's website: http://katefisher.co.ukKate on Facebook, YouTube​

In this episode, I bring Kate Diete & Paul McCann on the line to discuss a fascinating project they're doing. Starting out as 1st-time entrepreneurs, they've taken on the challenge of starting 12 NEW businesses in 12 months! On the podcast we go deep into exactly why they're doing it, what strategies they're using to make sure each of their businesses is successful, and much more. There are a ton of applicable strategies here for all businesses, at all stages of growth. Tune in and enjoy! Make sure to SHARE this podcast/episode with your friends, then leave us a REVIEW and get my "101 Conversion Tips" Cheat Sheet... free! Send an email to support@jeremyreeves.com with the name on your review. Resources Mentioned * http://innerwanderlust.com/* http://teawitty.com/ Can I Help Grow Your Business? Visit http://www.JeremyReeves.com or email me at support@JeremyReeves.com and let's chat. Enjoy! Transcript Jeremy Reeves: Hey, this is Jeremy Reeves with another episode of the Sales Funnel Mastery podcast and I have some pretty cool guests in the line today. I actually have two guests today and they’re gonna be kind of teaming up as we talk about this. Their names are Kate Diete and Paul McCann and I am pretty sure I got -- you just told me and I already kind of forget. So they are from innerwanderlust.com and essentially I’m gonna let them say exactly what they’re doing but essentially what they are doing is they made a challenge for themselves to do 12 new start-ups in 12 months and be cash flow positive in all of them and they’re actually doing really well so far. I was kind of reading up on them and looking at their results they’re having so far and it’s pretty fascinating and I love the challenge, number one because I love challenges because I think they’re fun and number two because it’s just a really cool challenge. They’re also doing all that while traveling the world. So I will let them give you the details on everything. We’re gonna get in depth not only on what they’re doing, but how they’re doing it and the marketing strategies they’re using to, to be cash flow positive in all their various businesses and that kind of thing. So we will dive into some good stuff, but for now… Kate and Paul, how you guys doing? Paul: Yeah, really good. Thanks for having us. Kate: Great. Thank you. Jeremy Reeves: Nice, nice. I actually didn’t even know when I called them but they’re actually in Vietnam right now. So maybe they can tell us a little bit about their travels too but -- tell everybody -- give us kind of a quick summary of exactly what you are doing, just expand a little bit on what I brought up earlier. Paul: Yeah, cool. So this year, yeah I guess we christened it kind of like a year of learning for so and we haven’t started a business before this year but we always have a lot of ideas and we want to throw ourselves into things, but we also wanted a way of measuring it and so, because of the number of ideas, we thought okay we can do more than just one and then the measuring came in with one a month. So we wanted to get something not bad, test the market, see if there was any sort of traction and pivot measure it and then as it worked launch it and yeah so far it’s been going okay and definitely -- so we have been doing all this while traveling as well. So we visited 22 countries so far this year and we found that traveling has really, really helped with the inspiration for coming up with and you know, not only the ideas for certain strategies of how to pitch them at particular demographics that we were looking at as well. Jeremy Reeves: Nice, nice. So tell us about some of the businesses, you don’t have to go through all of them but maybe some of your favorite ones since you launched a whole bunch already. What are some of the businesses that you came up with so far? Kate: Yeah, sure. So there has been a real mix, so I think something we have done which probably wasn’t the smartest thing was to do something in a different industry every time. Paul: That definitely wasn’t planned. Kate: It wasn’t planned, but it has been great experience. So one of our favorites is a tea subscription service. It is a lose weight tea, focused on health and we traveled around and we visit tea plantations and we sourced the tea which is amazing to do whilst traveling. Another one is a TV documentary which we are really excited about. So we soar as we are traveling around but you know there is so much happening with start-up scenes around the world but we didn’t actually hear about a lot of it when were both living in London so we felt we really deserve to have spotlight put on it so we decided that we wanted to film around -- so far I think we are on the 11th country and it’s gonna be producing to a six-series episodes to show the emerging markets and what’s happening within the start-up ecosystem of each. Jeremy Reeves: Wow, nice. Paul: Also, yes, we just got a meeting with different people from different stages of their journey so everything from literally someone here would have an idea of two weeks previous to people who just got funded by a VC to a multi-million dollar start-ups even to people who have accessed their start-ups and speaking to angel investors and venture capitalists and literally you name it. We are just trying to paint a real picture of the ecosystem, so that’s has been really interesting. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah. I love it. It’s really cool. One of the reason that I want to talk to you guys because to me it’s fascinating and one of the things you mentioned -- so you never had a business before starting this challenge? Kate: Yeah, correct. We have never had any experience to this. We both work corporately, but we felt like it was our time and we always wanted to so. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah and that had to be kind of a scary thing. I think it’s hard enough for people just to leave the corporate world to start one business let alone a new business every single month for a year. How did you get over that kind of fear, anxiety in the beginning? How did you feel like the first week or when you quit your job or when you first started that first business? How was the mental process going through that? Paul: Wow. Well for both of us, I can speak for Kate on this one, I don’t often do that. There wasn’t really any fear. As Kate said, it was really our time and I for one practically skipped into work the day I handed them the notice and pure excitement of what was the come and before then I worked really, really hard. We both had to kind to get to the level where we were at and we just find really, really unfulfilling I mean what we have achieved in the last 10 months and we are more proud of and though we spent you know, I don’t know, I have spent over 10 years trying to get to where I got in the corporate world and at that point I was very happy with where I got but yeah the last 10 months completely and blows all out the way to be honest. Kate: I think you know something also we just, we also soar -- you know, if we created this 12 businesses and they all failed it’s not -- well it’s not a failure. We would deem it as a learning. We wouldn’t have like a big year of learning whereas you know, obviously the goal for us is to create successful businesses but, you know, that’s the full work. Paul: Yeah, and one thing what we have noticed is, we have actually gotten more time, the further into the project we got, because we have got a lot slicker with what we were doing and so the more and more we have been learning, the quicker we have been able to do a lot of the tasks that before it took us a lot of time, so it’s -- yeah, I mean, then we were wrong, it’s still a lot of work and there’s a lot of learning to be done and it’s a strange paradox as it were because you know, when we first started at the first couple of months we just seemed to be not sleeping and really burning the candle at both ends trying to make things happen, whereas now, we are okay but still probably not sleeping that much but it feels like we have more time. Jeremy Reeves: Okay, nice. I know you are kind of mixing this with traveling, so how do you -- when you wake up like any given day or given week maybe that might even be easier. How does your schedule look as you are building all these different businesses, because I know -- I know just as a business owner it’s hard enough running one business and keeping everything and keeping all your -- figuring out exactly what you have to do every day and how you are gonna keep growing and everything combined. I am interested to learn how you, number one I guess, the systems that you kind of figure it out since the beginning of the year and then also how you kind of, how you kind of scheduled your time when you are -- because you are starting a new one every month so -- for example, you are starting a new one in November, so what happens with some of your older ones like the one you started in February, March. How do you kind of keep up with everything and manage it all? Kate: It’s a good question. So essentially, the idea is we continue working in all the businesses because there is no point of just launching it -- you can tell a lot within a month, but I think you can tell more once you have launched it. So it’s right to give it more time to see how it goes, but we were really highly structured I would say without time so we used an app could Wunderlist and we put everything in. So we are always prioritizing on time. We are still working -- actually we always will work around 12 hours a day because we love what we do and I guess the traveling -- a lot of people asked us whether it’s a distraction but for us it really stimulates our creativity. So we just meet some of the amazing people and we get a lot of ideas from that as well. So we -- I think around like maybe 6 or 7 of our start-ups have been based around sights we’ve seen whilst traveling. Jeremy Reeves: Oh wow, okay. Paul: Yeah, because when we started the challenge we had around 10, 11 ideas for businesses and we were like, this will be fun which we only need to come up with 1 more and then as it happens we got rid of about 8 of them, well 7 sorry and so we’ve only actually launched, I think, it’s 2 or 3 as Kate said, that we actually originally had. So everything else has come from traveling but just to expound on what Kate said as well. With the traveling, it maybe keeps us out of our comfort zone because we’re not really ever getting, we are not in a place really long enough to be comfortable. You always see an opportunity everywhere and perhaps, well I say opportunity, but what I mean by that is, like problems and then problems that you can solve which ultimately become opportunity so... Jeremy Reeves: Nice. I love that and that -- that always inspires me, traveling. For some reason, it brings out so much creativity in you. Even if you bring it down to just a very kind of minimal scale, I know that I write a lot and I’m kind of like an idea generator for -- not for new businesses, but for my client projects, my own projects and things like that. You know learn and show them how to market better and make more sales and that kind of thing, and I know that when I’m stuck on an idea, the worst possible thing to do is sit in my chair. The best thing I’ve ever discovered in -- with coming up with new ideas and you know being creative and inspired is getting up out of my chair usually out of my house and going for a walk or going outside and spending 5 to 10 minutes playing with the dogs or going upstairs and seeing the kids and it’s just something about -- and just getting in that new experience and it’s -- when you travel it’s just that magnified like a thousand times. Do you guys do stuff like that like when you are coming up with new ideas and kind of planning your projects, do you do anything like that like make sure that you have that -- that you get refreshed by travel before you come up the ideas or do you do that only when you get stuck, any kind of thoughts on that? Kate: I think because we are traveling so much and we are seeing so many new things, we haven’t really being that stuck on ideas which is being quite nice but it sounds so more -- I guess we’ve kind of train our brains to be more entrepreneurial and look for the problems. So we’re often like jotting down things that we see every day and see if we noticed any patterns which we have noticed from like country to country and market to market just being quite interesting but yes I don’t think -- and I think it slows -- I don’t think it slowed down at all so, yeah. We always out and about. So you know even if we -- when we’re working, will be working in a different place everyday so sometimes we will go to a coffee store and other times, we will visit a co-working space. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, so you’re constantly being refreshed every day. It’s awesome. Nice. So let’s move a little bit into more of like the marketing you are doing and how you’re being so successful because like I said, it’s hard enough -- when people start businesses. There is such a high failure rate with businesses. So tell me, first I can start with how you guys are doing, you don’t have to give like specific revenue or anything like that if you don’t want to but just in terms of like I guess cash-flow positive or negative, tell us and after that let’s talk a little bit about why you think you’ve done so well because I know you are doing really, really well. Let’s start getting into more of the actual like marketing and why you are being -- you’re so successful when so many other people are failing even within -- I know a lot of people who have a business and they launched a new product and it doesn’t work and you already have the momentum and you guys are going into all different markets where you don’t have a name or reputation or anything and your successful and pretty much everyone. Tell us a little bit about that and start I guess with how successful everything has been so far. Kate: Yeah, sure. So I mean -- I think a lot of the things that come from I guess decisions we have made, so one of them is that we decided to be very lean. So we want everything to be pretty much online. So our outlay cost has been very minimal so -- when we say that -- it took us 3 months to get cash positive in all the businesses. It was with a small outlay but it was by about month 5, I believe, that we were earning enough to be able to sustain our travels which we were very excited about because we thought it might have taken, we sort of saved up for the whole year just in case because obviously businesses are very hard to get traction and we do work a lot of marketing as well so we we’ve tried everything so we’re all about trying, failing, trying again but some of the things we do has been traveling around to give talks and we tried to get a lot of press so we have been talked about in various different light so that sometimes with our specific business, other times about our challenge, other times about things that we have tried and potentially failed on or not worked or -- we also use a lot of social media. Paul: Yeah and so -- and as we’ve been traveling around and it has been good in terms of -- I guess getting feedback from -- as we’ve been traveling around we got involved in much of the start-ups it seems we’ve been making a lot of contacts as well and from that -- we’ve got recently good network now so we can reach out to people who have been there, done that or are actually working in that industry as well where we can look what they’re doing and see if we can adapt it in any way for ourselves and we also go to a lot of meet-ups as well again so surrounding ourselves with like-minded people and trying to get again going back to the feedback on that one and I guess because now we’ve got a number of businesses, there is a lot of chance of cross promotion as well so, I mean, we have [inaudible 00:20:01] and which is Innerwanderlust and then we write about all, you know, learnings, pivots, how well we are doing and I guess tools we used and how we are doing it but then all the individual businesses will write a little bit about them as well but then that allows us to kind of get a bit of momentum behind it when we launch so people could check it out and also with some businesses, our complimentary to all this and so we can kind of overlap them and then double promote and hope that we, you know, we get some traction back from that as well so. Jeremy Reeves: So, one of the concepts in there that I kind of heard come out several times actually is a lot of your success actually has do with the relationships would that be -- would that be accurate? Kate: Yeah, I would say so. Paul: Yeah, definitely. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah and I think that is one thing that a lot of people they underestimate is your relationships because you can leverage relationships in so many different ways whether it’s, you know, you know somebody who knows somebody or they can give you like a new contact for example, if you knew somebody who, you know, you are starting a new business in the UK and they -- a reporter in the UK, you can get some press or going out and doing joint ventures with them or having them, you know, telling their own audience about your new business and that kind of thing. Do you have any with -- with that particularly, is there any kind of strategy you guys used or you just kind of like genuine and authentic and it’s kind of like you and you just get in touch with them and that kind of thing or is there anything like really specific that you do to build your relationship and that kind of thing or is it kind of just you go and you just start to meet as many people as you can and then just let some of the important relationships kind of float to the top and the other one is kind of fall away -- tell us a little bit about that. Paul: Yeah, I guess -- so before we visit any location as well we tend to do a lot of reading, a lot of research and largely most of our time is taken off by research to be honest. From that, we get a good picture of or we will try to get the best possible picture we can of where we are going and then that helps also with filming and then obviously to the documentary and then from that we reach out to key people who we believe will not only I guess help the documentary but also help the particular market and country where we’re in to give the best possible picture and then in doing so it enables us to form good relationships with these people and as you know, they want to promote what they’re promoting and it’s kind of -- Kate: Win-win. Paul: Yeah, it’s a win-win basically. So they get good exposure from that and then also we both form a relationship and yeah. Jeremy Reeves: Okay, nice, nice. I love that. Like I said it is something that a lot of people -- they’re so busy like kind of just doing the little minutiae that they forget about some of the bigger leverage points like the relationships and that kind of thing. So my next question is, in terms of -- one of the things that you mentioned before was that you focus and you kind of like trained your brain almost to find problems and then you figure out it’s like, number one, okay, where is the problem and you’ve trained your brain to find -- to see problems of people are having and then the second part of that is okay, what’s the solution, how can we bring something different to the market to solve that problem in a different way and when it comes down to a business that’s really all entrepreneurship. It’s just finding problems and giving solutions. So how about when you guys are -- when you’re in that process of your -- you find the problem what you seemed to be really good at, you seemed to find the problems everywhere and it’s almost like a thing that is not having new ideas but a problem of figuring out which idea to move forward with, and then you come to the phase where you are figuring out the solution. Do you have any kind of any specific strategy that you use for that or is it more of just like you find the problem and then you come to that, okay what’s the solution and you start researching how other competitors are already providing their solution or how does that go? Kate: Yeah, so essentially, I mean we used lots of different methods, it all boils probably back down to lean methodologies which we really love because it’s something that you know, you can get something out there very quickly and the whole build measure learn but I guess a lot of the things we do like -- I guess we talk to a lot of people so we’re always going to meet-ups as we mentioned before, we do a lot of surveys with our network. We talk to people online and to anyone we’ve met, basically anyone that would listen, but we also look at our competitors, I think that is a big thing that we need to always do because even if they are an indirect competitors there is someone that is may be looking at -- doing -- solving the same problem but in a complete different way. They’re competitors and maybe there is even someone you can work with potentially to continue to solve the problem with them. Yeah, but I think first and foremost let’s say people, like talking to people don’t be like -- we are not afraid to share our ideas. Paul: No, definitely. I mean getting feedback is probably one of the most valuable things you can do because you can come up with what do you think is the greatest idea but then if everybody else is like I don’t really understand what that is or perhaps having to see these other people who were doing it or even you know that idea isn’t very good. You kind of need to feel that as quick as possible so you can neither adapt it, pivot, or shelve it. Jeremy Reeves: Okay. Kate: Let’s try and make this quick as possible. Jeremy Reeves: Okay, yeah, yeah. So how long -- when you get an idea, say December 1st then it’s time to launch that new -- that new project. How long is it from when you say, okay, it’s time to start working on this until it’s actually live in the marketing place. Kate: It’s usually within the month but it could honestly be quicker because you can learn a lot free market very quickly like through the surveys. You talk into people if you know you put all your focus into it. We both believe that once you launch something you actually learned a lot more because that is when you know you are actually asking for people to potentially pay for something or you know to be a part of something that’s when you learn the actual truth. Paul: Yeah, definitely and also I think, not too sure who said this quote but it makes a lot of sense which is and “It is not to be perfect, it just has to be done.” I think you can spend so much time trying to get something to look absolutely pristine and perfect and you know, something that perhaps you want to take out for dinner but it doesn’t need to be that way initially and as long as, you know, everyone can understand what it is that you’re doing and you’re offering something that people want and then you can put all the nice trimmings afterwards. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah. So do you guys, you know, when you -- you say you have the kind of the process of launching it really quick which I love because I 100% agree on that. Do you then go back, so like it’s November now, are you now going back to some of your projects and starting to make some of those tweaks to improve it and maybe play around with the price or playing around with the offer or that kind of thing? Kate: Yeah for sure, all the time actually. So we have regular growth hacking sessions on but like just to give an example of one. So, our very first sort of tea, I think we pivoted like quite big pivots about 4 or 5 times now and so you can see the transformation through that and we have learned so much in it and also look back to our second start-up and just what it looked like when we first launch as opposed to how it is now, it’s a huge difference than -- it’s great to see it progressed and -- Jeremy Reeves: Okay, nice. I love that because it’s -- especially when you have -- so many, it’s probably challenging just to go back and look and you know see what needs to be changed and even have the kind of brain space to even think about it. What project are you working on this month? Paul: This month we are working on something that solves a problem and within the start-up industry. It is something that I’m quite excited about and it is something -- and it has taken a lot of effort and I mean all of us take a lot of effort but this one is kind of have been brewing for -- I mean we first came up with the idea and I would say in its first version would probably be and quite a few months to go now and then we have been looking for a way to position that idea and as we have experienced more, we have pivoted away from the original idea and got this will be better and then again we just kind of wiggled through with it I would say, for the lack of a better word, for quite a few months and now we’re really, really close to kind of ad leasing which we’re pretty excited about. Jeremy Reeves: Okay, nice. Yeah, I love it, I love it. Yeah, nice. So how about -- when this is over, do you have any plans for like what’s next for 2016, is there -- do you have anything in place now or are you gonna continue to do new business every month or you’re gonna, you know, maybe take your, maybe top couple that are making the most revenue, focus on that, do you have any plans for next year? Kate: Yes, I guess we won’t be continuing the one per month idea. We’re looking to -- we would like to see which one is -- I guess are going well. We will probably focus on the ones that actually got growth. I mean it’s hard to -- we might look soon as well at cutting or retiring some of the ideas that aren’t working as well or hiring because some it you know just obviously managing 12 businesses is quite a lot of work. Paul: Yeah, and we want to give them all the best possible chance to succeed and then understand the one or two that we feel could grow a lot faster if they have more focus, but not so much focus, but a dedicated person doing a particular task which is required for that business and to scale it quickly and as Kate said, you know, we are running sort of 9 or 10 businesses now. We just don’t have that sort of time, sadly. Jeremy Reeves: Okay, nice. So over the past, you know 10, 11 months, is there anything that really stood out? Bringing it back to like specific applicable kind of lessons that the people can implement in their businesses. I know I have gotten actually probably at least 8 or 10 ideas just from talking for at least half hour. Is there anything specifically so, you know, now that you guys are true entrepreneurs and you are going to be building businesses probably the rest of your life I would imagine. Is there -- what are some of like the biggest failures that you guys had, that you’re taking the lessons from them because I know you are huge into failing but failing to learn the lesson. So what are some of the like the big giant flops that you’ve had over the last 11 months or so, and how are you going to -- how are you going to use the lessons from them to, you know, number one, not make mistakes again obviously, but to kind of use that to -- I’m trying to think how I’m trying to say this like to leverage it into faster growth in the future? Kate: Yeah, I think one of the biggest ones was with our first start-up it was basically pitching the completely wrong demographic which it was quite funny because with tea, we thought that it was quite of an older demographic and we are getting involved with an old different things and we were wondering why there was no traction. Basically, we found out, I mean a couple months in that -- it was essentially the demographic was falling off, also demographic that that was young between 18 to 35 and more like health conscious. It was a complete surprise we merely learned that through the statistics that -- I guess one thing is to not be too attached to the idea. Paul: Yeah, I had to agree with that one. Jeremy Reeves: That’s a good one. I love that. Kate: You come and look it like as business and even though, you know, it’s quite different to the idea that we originally thought it’s much better and you got to be able to learn to let go of that, you know, that’s my baby, this is how I was meant to be, but if the market is not there for you, you need to got to move on. Paul: Yeah, I guess spending time on the things that truly matter as well so and I said earlier it didn’t have to be perfect, it has to be done. I guess you only have a certain amount of time each day and you need to be doing the tasks that matter in the right order whether you know one particular task isn’t something that you really don’t want to do. It doesn’t really matter. It just needs to get done and so yeah, not dodging some tasks until they have to get done and making sure you work for the correct priority and yeah. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, and you know what, I would even take that a step further even and kind of put in a different context and there are -- I mean I talk to all kinds of people in all sorts of industries and different phases of the business and all kind of stuff like that and one of the things that I seemed that kind of reflects this whole kind of theme is being too attached and whether it is to the demographic or the product or whatever it is, I find a lot of people who think, even with sales funnels, I build sales funnels for my clients every day of my life that’s what I -- that’s what I do and I have, just for one example, I have someone come to me I think it was last week, maybe earlier this week I forgot but it was in the last the 7 days or so, and they came to me and they were under $100,000, I think they only made like $20,000 to that point and so we were talking and then I said “you know that is wouldn’t be really in my [inaudible 00:35:05]” just because of budget constraints and stuff like that and they were really, really, really focused that they had -- the first thing they had to do is build this big elaborate sales funnel and I told them and I’m like, “listen, you don’t have to do that right now”. They were adamant about that they have to had a sales funnel and that was gonna solve all their problems and I said, “No, I sell sales funnels all day, but you have to be in the right -- it has to be the right time for the business.” When you are under $100,000 or so, it should be -- you should basically be in hustle mode, like you should be going out boots to the ground just doing anything you have to, to get sales and usually that’s building relationships like we are talking about before. Sales funnel -- wouldn’t do -- a big elaborate one at least wouldn’t do as much for somebody in that kind of income range versus somebody who was already at a couple of $100,000. I come across that all the time of people who come and they say, “No, I need to do this next” and I have to kind of fight with them a little bit and say, “Yeah, we have to do that soon, but we have to do this and this and this first” and a lot of times it takes a lot of explaining to get them like past that point because they are just -- they are kind of like cling on to it. I see a lot of kind of similarities in what you guys are saying and just moving that into other areas of businesses as well, just don’t be too attached to really anything, whether it’s may be an employee or the next thing that you would think you need to do or like what you guys were talking about. I think that is an important point. Is there anything, I mean anything else that really has kind of like, hit you on the head? Paul: I guess to go away just having so slightly from the learning time I would say and one of the biggest things that surprised me is just the kind of pay it forward mentalities of the entrepreneurs and because literally, every single person that we have met pretty much, and is just willing to give you so much good advice, so much support, so much help, and literally what you got to do is ask for it and just something completely different than I’ve ever experienced previously so I would say yeah. There is another quote that I know, “If you don’t ask, the answer is always no.” That will be the learning for that one. Jeremy Reeves: Nice and that is -- you know, it’s true. Yeah, that’s basically just true -- period. That is funny. Actually, I was just looking and I know this is completely random, but what’s the URL for your tea website that you have? Kate: Oh, it’s Teawitty.com. Jeremy Reeves: Okay, oh my keyboard is actually dying on me, that’s not good. Yeah, I know that was completely random, but I’m actually -- I have been drinking tea as you are talking about. Yeah, I was kind of like laughing at it, but yeah, I drink tea all the time, so I’m actually going to look at it personally. So, I think that kind of about wraps it up. Do you guys have any -- like kind of final thoughts, anything that I should have asked that I didn’t asked that you think is really important for people to know whether -- regardless of the phase that there in. There is probably a lot of people listening to this that aren’t really in the start-up phase, but like I said, there is a lot of things that you guys talked about that are 100% relevant to anybody in any business stage. Especially, taking your failures and learning from them and not being attached and -- I mean there is a whole bunch of others. Is there anything that I should have asked or I didn’t or any kind of like -- any kind of insight that you guys had that you -- speaking of giving it back, anything that you, any kind of insight or, you know, just something that you’ve learned that you think would help other entrepreneurs, you know to further their business? Paul: Yeah, I mean going back to what you said previously, I guess it’s just not being afraid to hustle as well you know Kate and I for the tea business, you know, we took to the streets of London in the rain and London could be a pretty harsh place as it is to be on this than -- if you’re trying to hand someone a bit of paper, trying the flyer and to get someone to notice you, to get some feedback and then try doing it in the rain as well. It can be pretty damaging to your ego to be honest but we persevered with that and from that and we credit off our sale because from that [inaudible 00:39:54] idea because people weren’t too keen to take the bit of paper that we were giving them and we are like, what else can we do, what can we do to be in people’s homes, be in people’s workspaces so they will notice us and think of us, so we then came with the idea to put tea in sort of sample packs. So we were like, we will give the people free tea, everyone would want free tea. So we have a lot more success with that and then from that as well we were at an event and it was --- there was a journalist there who loves tea, so we gave him some of the samples and then the next day we woke up and we wrote about in Lifehacker and it just so happened that he was the journalist in Lifehacker and he actually coined the travel packs, sorry, the sample packs as travel packs as well and which we were like okay, we kind of only thought of them as samples. He was like, “Oh loose leaf travel packs, this is amazing” and we were like, “great” and then at the same time, we have been getting tweets back from our people who were took the samples as well, and we were like, “Oh really, love your travel packs and we were like, “amazing” okay and then from that we -- yeah, but that was another pivot and we were like okay we give you lose leaf travel packs as well. Jeremy Reeves: That’s funny. Yeah, a lot of times, a lot of times you’ll learn like -- as you come out, you think that your idea is like the idea and then someone says something like that and it just changes the whole dynamic of everything. That’s awesome, I love that. Paul: Definitely. Yeah, I guess just listening to feedback in what your customers say about you and -- if it’s something good or bad to be honest, just make sure you act on it. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, absolutely. I really appreciate you guys coming on. Why don’t you tell everybody, because you guys -- I know you have a blog and you are kind of like journaling this whole year and all your insights that you are having and that kind of thing, I’m actually on it right now. So tell everybody where they can go to find out more about you and to find out where they can kind of follow your story that you’re doing and find -- kind of look at some of the websites that you have been building and that kind of thing. Kate: Yeah, sure. Everything is pulled altogether under www.innerwanderlust.com so we talk about like our journey, traveling our new experiences, the pivots, anything we have tried, so yeah, come over and try [inaudible 00:42:23]. We also have another thing to mention is that we love meeting people so please feel free to get in touch with us. Jeremy Reeves: Sounds good, sounds good. www.Innerwanderlust that will be in the show notes for everybody so if you’re on your phone there will be a link there, if you listen to your computer, it will be on the show notes so just go there and it will go right to their website. Thanks again for coming up. I really enjoyed this conversation, I think it’s, you know, everybody -- a lot of the stuff we talked about is so focused on sales funnels and I have been kind of lately, I have been getting a little bit out of that just to kind of bring some fresh insights and perspectives to everything. We talked about different things and you guys talked about stuff that a lot of people don’t really talked about all that much anymore in the marketing world, it’s so much about, you know, tactics and going outwards and do this thing and go on Facebook and here is how you could find new audiences and segmentation all that kind of stuff and it’s just refreshing to hear of someone who -- when everybody else is having such a hard time you guys are just completely flourishing and I can see why now. So kudos on that. Kate and Paul: Thank you so much for having us. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah. Thanks again and I will talk to you soon. Kate: Great. Paul: Definitely, thanks.    

Productivity Secrets (Incl. Full Transcript) of Kate Erickson That Led To $433K in Feb 2015 Revenue! Kate Erickson already worked with the John Lee Dumas in growing entrepreneur on fire into one of the most successful podcasts. Kate's story begins in corporate America where she worked in human resources having decided fairly, early in her career that the corporate ladder wasn't for her. She chose to blaze her trail as an entrepreneur since she has joined Entrepreneur On Fire she pioneered the Entrepreneur On Fire Blog, and I've also done some guest blogging on behalf of Entrepreneur On Fire. She has also bee heavily involved in Podcaster Paradise of which am a proud member which probably is the best resource online when it comes to learning how to podcast. She is also the brains behind the explosive growth of Entrepreneur On Fire, and she is continuously working with her partner John Lee Dumas to develop and refine the growth strategy she has been instrumental in growing the business well beyond the six-figure monthly income and made $433,000 in February 2015 which is pretty awesome. Share This Episode: Click To Tweet Links Mentioned: Click here to download podcast shownotes A few highlights from the interview: Kate's story -  a transition from corporate employee to successful entrepreneur Kate's morning routine and how it helps her productivity Kate's strategy to overcome 'imposter syndrome' as an entrepreneur How Kate uses themed days to increase focus Kate's take on Kate's Take Kate's advice to aspiring entrepreneurs Full Transcript of Interview Below ASH: You've been instrumental in growing the business well beyond a six-figure monthly income and made $433,000 in February 2015, which is pretty awesome. KATE: That's definitely very awesome. Thanks for all your kind words, Ash. I really appreciate it. You're also the brains behind the explosive growth of EOFire, and you're constantly working with your partner, John Lee Dumas, to develop and refine the growth strategy. JOHN: Hey, this is John Lee Dumas from Entrepreneur On Fire. You're listening to my friend Ash Roy. ASH: Welcome to the Productive Insights Podcast for entrepreneurs and professionals, where we discuss how to leverage your business. Head over to productiveinsights.com for over a hundred free tips, articles, videos, and podcasts that help you increase your productivity and maximize your profits to fund the perfect lifestyle. In today's podcast we speak to Kate Erickson, who has worked with John Lee Dumas in growing Entrepreneur On Fire into one of the most successful podcasts. Kate, your story begins in corporate America where you worked in human resources. Having decided fairly early in your career that the corporate ladder wasn't for you, you chose to blaze your own trail as an entrepreneur. Since you've joined Entrepreneur On Fire you pioneered the Entrepreneur On Fire blog and I've also done some guest blogging on behalf of EOFire. You've also been heavily involved in Podcasters' Paradise, of which I'm a proud member, which probably is the best resource online when it comes to learning podcasting. You're also the brains behind the explosive growth of EOFire and you're constantly working with your partner, John Lee Dumas, to develop and refine the growth strategy. You've been instrumental in growing the business well beyond a six-figure monthly income and made $433,000 dollars in February 2015, which is pretty awesome. KATE: It's definitely very [00:02:00] awesome. Thanks for all your kind words, Ash. I really appreciate it. ASH: You're most welcome. These achievements make for a very spectacular resume, particularly for somebody who's such a young entrepreneur. Could you spend a minute telling us about your entrepreneurial journey, Kate? KATE: Sure. Like you said, I kind of started off in corporate America. I thought that's where my career would lie.