Podcasts about abuse awareness

Text us your questions or topics for the show! We got you!Cass Morrow, Author of Disrupting Divorce: The NEW Man. Saving Struggling, Sexless, and Toxic Marriages.Kathryn Morrow, Author of Behind The White Picket Fence.Staying During Abuse!In Episode 278 of The 'NEW' Marriage, we confront the painful truth about staying during abuse. Why do people stay? What role does trauma, fear, or love play? This episode offers real talk, compassionate insight, and a path toward safety and healing.

Conquering Shame: A Poetic Journey of Healing and ForgivenessIn this episode of the 'Teens Draw Near to God Poetry Podcast,' host Shirah Chante addresses heavy themes of abuse, shame, and healing through poetry. She presents her latest poem, 'No Shame,' written on Valentine's Day 2025, and discusses how society often wrongly places shame on victims rather than perpetrators. Shirah uses her personal experiences to underscore the importance of returning shame to where it belongs and encourages listeners to draw closer to God to find healing. The episode also stresses the power of forgiveness and love as central tenets for overcoming trauma.00:00 Introduction and Welcome00:51 Introducing the Poem 'No Shame'02:09 Reading the Poem 'No Shame'04:12 Discussing the Poem's Themes07:39 Personal Reflections and Experiences12:20 Call to Action and ConclusionFollow Shirah ChanteInstagramFacebookLinkedInYoutubeBlogGet godly counsel with Shirah Chante:Visit https://shirahchante.com/coaching/ 

Send us a textWelcome to Murder By Nature, where the darkness of true crime, unsolved disappearances, and chilling mysteries come to life. I'm your host, Jazmin Ramirez, and if you're brave enough to join us, prepare for a journey into the unknown.References:https://luminolpod.com/blog/f/the-captivity-of-jessyca-mullenberghttps://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=2954522&page=1https://www.newspapers.com/article/green-bay-press-gazette-jessyca-mullenbe/161513907/https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/us-7th-circuit/1297379.htmlhttps://thecinemaholic.com/where-is-jessyca-mullenberg-now/https://thecinemaholic.com/where-is-steven-oliver-now/https://www.upi.com/Archives/1995/12/29/Missing-13-year-old-girl-found-in-Texas/6788820213200/https://www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/news/a49502/i-was-kidnapped-and-raped-by-my-neighbor/https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3332762/Mom-two-kidnapped-raped-neighbor-13-admits-memory-horrific-abduction-haunts-20-years-on.htmlhttps://people.com/jessyca-mullenberg-kidnapping-survivor-advocacy-efforts-8719046https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13912871/woman-jessyca-mullenberg-kidnapped-wisconsin-teacher-aide-survivor.htmlhttps://www.weau.com/content/news/Raising-awareness-Kidnapped-teen-shares-story-20-years-later-420418333.htmlThe streets of Eau Claire, Wisconsin, were quiet, lined with cozy homes and the sounds of children playing in backyards. It was the kind of place where parents felt safe letting their kids ride their bikes until the streetlights flickered on. But in the fall of 1995, that sense of security was shattered. A girl vanished without a trace—one moment, she was there, a bright, imaginative 13-year-old with dreams of becoming a writer. The next, she was gone.Her name was Jessyca Mullenberg.Jessyca's life had already seen its share of changes. After her parents divorced, she moved to Wausau, Wisconsin, with her mother, stepfather, and two younger brothers. She missed Eau Claire, missed the familiarity of her old neighborhood. But she still visited her father often, spending weekends with him in the house she once called home. It was during those visits that she met a man who would change the course of her life forever.Support the show

Abusers know the routine: First, present yourself as a savior. Promise a romanticized, idyllic version of the future. Earn trust. Then, isolate. “It's the world against us, baby.” Brainwash. “Don't trust anyone but me.” And finally, control at such a dizzying speed that the victim can't make heads or tails of it all. What is real? Am I in danger? How do I get out of this? Hey, look at that, it's Trump, America's abusive husband. In just under 30 days since he and his BFF Elon Musk invaded the White House, we're in full oligarchy mode. This is not a drill. Call it a coup, call it a dictatorship or just call it the most embarrassing time of U.S. history unfolding before our eyes. Today we're talking about Trump's dizzying array of executive orders, declarations, hirings and firings, which are all just a distraction technique. An appetizer round if you will. We need to discuss why it's important we don't give up, put our heads in the sand and shut down our ear holes. Because that's what he's hoping will happen. We want to hear from you. Do you have a story we need to discuss or a guest we should feature? Visit us at ToxicThePodcast.com and share your story. If you're experiencing abuse or domestic violence, please reach out to someone you trust. You can also connect with a trained advocate near you through DomesticShelters.org. Finally, help us keep this conversation going. Share an episode of Toxic with a friend, your dog sitter, or the anxious person next to you in the TSA line. Follow us on your favorite podcast platform or social media, and if you're willing, leave us a review. Your support helps us amplify these critical stories. Together, we can create change.

Send us a textIn this episode, I'm joined by Sarah Benson, CEO of Women's Aid, to have an open and vital conversation about gender-based abuse. We discuss the harsh realities of psychological and emotional abuse, physical and sexual abuse, and coercive control. We consider the societal norms that enable these issues, and the alarming rise in abuse during the holiday season.Our discussion highlights the challenges faced by survivors, as Sarah sheds light on the complexities of post-separation abuse, including financial manipulation, and the urgent need for legislative reform to protect survivors. We also reflect on the case of Nikita Hand and the often harrowing court process for sexual abuse cases, emphasizing the need for systemic change. We explore the broader societal influences that contribute to gender-based abuse, from pornography to perceived gender roles, and the responsibility of both men and women in fostering change. This episode calls for awareness, action, and cultural shifts to create a safer, more equal society for everyone. Tune in for a thought-provoking and compassionate conversation.This episode discusses sensitive topics, including domestic and sexual abuse, which some listeners may find distressing. If you or someone you know is affected by these issues, support is available. Please reach out to the Women's Aid 24-hour National Freephone Helpline at 1800 341 900 or visit www.womensaid.ie for more resources. You are not alone.This episode is sponsored by BURST Oral Care, the brand revolutionising oral care with fresh, fun, and effective products. Just in time for the holiday season, BURST's PAP-powered whitening products are now available in Ireland at McCauley's, Mulligan's, and Adrian Dunne Pharmacies. Perfect for keeping your smile bright and fresh through all the festive celebrations.Their latest innovation, Teeth Whitening Breath Strips, dissolve on your teeth to whiten up to 2.5 shades while freshening your breath with a polar mint kick. Say goodbye to red wine stains and stale breath this holiday season—these strips are your new secret weapon for a dazzling smile! Follow @burstoralcare on Instagram for updates and offers, or grab yours in-store today.Thanks for listening! You can watch the full episode on YouTube here. Don't forget to follow The Laura Dowling Experience podcast on Instagram @lauradowlingexperience for updates and more information. You can also follow our host, Laura Dowling, @fabulouspharmacist for more insights and tips. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review—it really helps us out! Stay tuned for more great conversations.

Discussion covers the early arrival of frost in St. Louis, the ARPA funds deadline, and the Blues' home opener loss. Highlights include the St. Louis Cardinals' Gold Glove finalists and a personal story of highway safety concerns. Special guest Kim Beardslee, Director of Community Affairs at Purina, talks about the Purple Leash Project, which helps domestic abuse survivors bring their pets to shelters. Other topics include Walgreens' store closures and a chess cheating scandal involving Kirill Shevchenko.

Amy Griffiths speaks with some of the groups on the Island who work with those affected by domestic abuse. *Due to the nature of this programme, some listeners may find the content distressing.*If you are affected by the issues raised, the following may be helpful: the police will listen you if you come forward to report an incident. You can call the non-emergency number 631212 oruse 999 if you are in immediate dangeryou can contact Victim Support on 679950 or visit their website –victimsupport.im

Domestic abuse survivor, Carolyn Thomas, known as “the woman without a face”, talks with Ann about her latest facial surgery and the upcoming Oct 8 Domestic Abuse Awareness event at the Waco Convention Center.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode I am joined by the inspirational Vanessa Reiser!Vanessa M. Reiser is a licensed clinical social worker (LCSW), licensed in New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, and Florida. She is a psychotherapist and the founder of Tell a Therapist, LLC as well as the founder of the nonprofit, Tell a Therapist, INC. She is also the Author of  - "Narcissistic Abuse: A Therapist's Guide to Identifying, Escaping, and Healing from Toxic and Manipulative People" Vanessa specializes in narcissistic personality disorder, and her practice focuses on treating victims and survivors of cults, narcissists, domestic violence, and narcissistic abuse. Her insights are both personal and professional, giving her a unique lens into this insidious form of domestic abuse. Vanessa is a long-distance runner and two-time Ironman who is best known for running the state of New York (285 miles in 11 days) in a wedding dress to raise awareness for narcissistic abuse.For more episodes like this, make sure you hit that subscribe button on your favourite podcast platform! (and while you're there, please leave us a rating and a review if you enjoyed this episode. Nova

Full transcription available at http://heartsofgoldpodcast.com/  We had the pleasure of speaking with Elizabeth, a freshman in college who recently completed her Girl Scout Gold Award project. Elizabeth's project, titled "Wisdom Wings," aims to support survivors of sexual abuse by providing care packages to police stations. These packages include stress toys, journals, pens, and informational pamphlets to help victims navigate the reporting process. Elizabeth shared her personal connection to the project, revealing her own experience with abuse as a child and the challenges she faced in reporting it. This deeply personal journey inspired her to write a children's book, "Lee Learns a Lesson," which teaches kids about consent and boundaries. The book is available on Amazon, and all profits go towards funding the care packages. Throughout the episode, Elizabeth discussed the various challenges she faced, including coordinating with police stations and writing a children's book. She also highlighted the support she received from her illustrator, Holly Perda, and the Orange County Mental Health Organization. Elizabeth's project has received positive feedback from both police officers and survivors who have benefited from the care packages. She also shared her favorite memories from the project, including her first public speaking event and receiving the first physical copy of her book. In addition to her Gold Award project, Elizabeth talked about her previous Girl Scout achievements, including her Bronze and Silver Awards. She also offered advice for other Girl Scouts considering similar projects, emphasizing the importance of passion and perseverance. Elizabeth's story is a powerful example of how personal experiences can inspire meaningful change. Her dedication to supporting survivors of sexual abuse and her passion for writing and public speaking are truly inspiring. We are grateful to have had the opportunity to share her journey on the Hearts of Gold podcast. More About Elizabeth: I've been in Girl Scouts since I was in first grade. I've completed my Bronze, Silver, and Gold Award. Through my Fold Award I have found my passion for writing a children's book, speaking out about my story, and supporting survivors of sexual abuse. I'm currently finishing my last week of my freshman year of college at Suny Cortland with a dual major in Business Economics and Communication. In addition, I have had my book placed in three libraries; Bruggemeyer Library (Monterey Park, CA), Alhambra Civic Library (Alhambra, CA), and Queens Public Library (Queens, NY). You can also find the eBook on my website at hiddenjewelsofasia.com. Website Link: https://linktr.ee/wisdomwings?utm_source=linktree_profile_share Link to ebook: www.hiddenjewelsofasia.com   Key Takeaways from this episode: Elizabeth's Girl Scout Gold Award project, Wisdom Wings, focuses on supporting survivors of sexual abuse by providing care packages and a children's book called "Lee Learns a Lesson." Elizabeth's personal connection to her project stems from her own experience of being abused as a child, which inspired her to create resources to help others in similar situations. Elizabeth's project has received positive feedback, with care packages being helpful to survivors and her book receiving support and praise. She has also expanded her project to college campuses and is continuously working to grow and sustain it. Share this show with your friends on Twitter. Click to have an editable already written tweet! https://ctt.ac/33zKe Sign up for our newsletter: https://bit.ly/3rx06pr   Join our Facebook Community https://www.facebook.com/sherylmrobinson/ Instagram https://www.instagram.com/sherylmrobinson/?hl=en Please subscribe to Hearts of Gold on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/sherylmrobinson or on your favorite podcast app. Support future Hearts of Gold episodes at https://www.patreon.com/heartsofgold Editing by https://www.offthewalter.com/ Walter's YouTube channel is https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCt0wFZRVaOpUd_nXc_8-4yQ

Tebogo Ramadiro is a Substance Abuse Counsellor with SADAG and joins Africa to speak on mental health in men, in the context of substance abuseSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Nicholas Ingel is a Recovered addict, Powerlifter, Coach and Speaker and joins Africa to speak on fitness and the role is has on our mental healthSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

There is a rise in abuse to elders in America when it comes to their finances and recently acknowledged Elder Financial Abuse Awareness Day, where so many reports of fraud have surfaced. We talked to Jill Schlesinger of Jill on Money about this and how the FBI, along with many others, are hoping to combat the abuse of elders not just financially but physically and emotionally as well

There is a rise in abuse to elders in America when it comes to their finances and recently acknowledged Elder Financial Abuse Awareness Day, where so many reports of fraud have surfaced. We talked to Jill Schlesinger of Jill on Money about this and how the FBI, along with many others, are hoping to combat the abuse of elders not just financially but physically and emotionally as well

Elder abuse is a crime long ignored or downplayed in society. This needs to change, especially as society ages. Abuse can be physical and/or psychological, is often committed by people the victim relies on or trusts, and can hasten a victim's death.Rob Critchlow APM is the author of the article titled 'Dignity and Safety: Responding Effectively to Abuse of Older Persons', which is in the new (June 2024) issue of the APJ. Rob joins host Jason Byrnes, to talk about elder abuse awareness, the forms that abuse can take, and what police should be alert to when dealing with people over the age of 65.Rob recently retired after 34 years as a police officer, and he also offers some insight into a busy and rewarding career, especially detective duties and being a local area commander.The APJ is a subscription magazine which is available in hardcopy or at www.apjl.com.au. Go to the website for more details.Host: Jason Byrnes APMGuest: Rob Critchlow APM

Scott McComb, President of Heartland Bank discusses this issue that he is very passionate about! It's something that should not be ignored!

World Elder Abuse Awareness Day is observed annually on June 15. This observance was created to shed light on the abuse and neglect that many older people experience. On this day, the focus is on highlighting how our cultural, socioeconomic, and demographic processes can lead to elder abuse and neglect. The abuse may occur in many forms including physical, sexual, financial, psychological, and social. The number of Saint Lucians who are 65 and over represent 9.5% of the total population. This means that we have an ageing population and can expect to see a larger number of seniors in the upcoming years. Living longer, however, does not necessarily mean living better. Our older population is particularly vulnerable to neglect and abuse, with members being often unable to defend themselves or get help, as fear, illness and infirmity can be major barriers for them. The Prime Minister established the Elderly Affairs Unit in our Ministry, to coordinate the delivery of services to older persons across all sectors, and to develop the policies and programmes that will empower and protect our older population. Our Ministry will continue to strengthen our current services, such as Universal Health Coverage and the Golden 80 Plus programme, while working to expand and improve other services, in collaboration with all stakeholders and to integrate health and wellness into our national strategies. We will promote healthy and active ageing, by reframing our view of ageing and ensuring that every older person thrives. The Elderly Affairs Unit will coordinate the development of evidence-based programmes, work with private and public sector organisations to develop new programmes and services for older persons; and most importantly involve our seniors in the decision-making processes which will enable them to contribute positively to our communities. We recognize the work of the Ministry of Equity, The National Insurance Cooperation, the National Council of and for Older Persons (HELPAGE-Saint Lucia), the Saint Lucia Pensioners Association and other community-based organizations such as the Club 60s and the Mothers and Fathers groups over the years. These organizations continue to play an important role in the protection of our senior population. The theme for World Elderly Abuse Awareness Day, is “Age with Attitude”. I ask you to join us in celebrating and protecting our seniors by volunteering some of your time to visit an older person in your community. Support them where possible and of course, report any incidents of elder abuse or neglect to the relevant authorities. Let us honor those who paved the way for our success.

World Elder Abuse Awareness Day is observed annually on June 15. This observance was created to shed light on the abuse and neglect that many older people experience. On this day, the focus is on highlighting how our cultural, socioeconomic, and demographic processes can lead to elder abuse and neglect. The abuse may occur in many forms including physical, sexual, financial, psychological, and social. The number of Saint Lucians who are 65 and over represent 9.5% of the total population. This means that we have an ageing population and can expect to see a larger number of seniors in the upcoming years. Living longer, however, does not necessarily mean living better. Our older population is particularly vulnerable to neglect and abuse, with members being often unable to defend themselves or get help, as fear, illness and infirmity can be major barriers for them. The Prime Minister established the Elderly Affairs Unit in our Ministry, to coordinate the delivery of services to older persons across all sectors, and to develop the policies and programmes that will empower and protect our older population. Our Ministry will continue to strengthen our current services, such as Universal Health Coverage and the Golden 80 Plus programme, while working to expand and improve other services, in collaboration with all stakeholders and to integrate health and wellness into our national strategies. We will promote healthy and active ageing, by reframing our view of ageing and ensuring that every older person thrives. The Elderly Affairs Unit will coordinate the development of evidence-based programmes, work with private and public sector organisations to develop new programmes and services for older persons; and most importantly involve our seniors in the decision-making processes which will enable them to contribute positively to our communities. We recognize the work of the Ministry of Equity, The National Insurance Cooperation, the National Council of and for Older Persons (HELPAGE-Saint Lucia), the Saint Lucia Pensioners Association and other community-based organizations such as the Club 60s and the Mothers and Fathers groups over the years. These organizations continue to play an important role in the protection of our senior population. The theme for World Elderly Abuse Awareness Day, is “Age with Attitude”. I ask you to join us in celebrating and protecting our seniors by volunteering some of your time to visit an older person in your community. Support them where possible and of course, report any incidents of elder abuse or neglect to the relevant authorities. Let us honor those who paved the way for our success.

Financial abuse is the most common form of elder abuse in Canada and the Financial and Consumer Services Commission is asking people in the financial industry to stand up for older adults. 

Two guests on a Wednesday, led off by La Crosse city council member Chris Woodard to talk about a bill to ban big animal acts, then Zach Trebelhorn from the county discusses elderly abuse calls rising in the area. Began the show talking a bit about the Biden Administration launching BINGO and pickleball campaigns, as First Lady Jill Biden plans to head to Wisconsin.After that (5:20), Woodard, who represents District 9, joined to talk about a bill he's sponsored that would ban traveling acts from having elephants, big cats and bears perform here. Next (18:10), Trebelhorn, with Adult Protective Services at the county, stopped in studio to promote Elderly Abuse Awareness Day from 10 a.m.-noon Saturday at Riverside Park, that includes the big band, Grumpy Old Men. Trebelhorn discussed how important it is to bring more awareness to the issue of elderly abuse and how numbers have been rising locally.  The county says there were 320 community referrals in 2023 related to adults aged over 60 – an 8% increase from 2022, plus a 21% increase seen from 2021 to 2022. Of those 320, 80% of the cases were family members.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Kerri Kasem --June 15th, is World Elder Abuse Awareness Day, the day Casey passed away. 10 years since the death of Casey Kasem // Kerri Kasem the fight against Elder Abuse // Vanna White says farewell to Pat Sajack on his final spin // Apollo 8 astronaut William Anders, 80, killed in plane crash off Washington coast / Santa Monica store manager confronts shoplifter, forces her to return stolen items

Rush Record and Laura Brown are back with us today in part two of our conversation regarding Court Appointed Special Advocates for children in Champaign County, Illinois. Rush and Laura talk about the need for volunteers in this crucial role in helping children navigate the court system and how support from the community makes a difference long-term for these children and their families.  

The Mohua Show is a weekly podcast about everything from business, technology to art and lifestyle, but done and spoken ईमानदारी सेConnect with UsMohua Chinappa: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mohua-chinappa/The Mohua Show: https://www.themohuashow.com/Connect with the GuestReema Ahmad: https://www.linkedin.com/in/reema-ahmad-01102713b/Follow UsYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheMohuaShowInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/themohuashow/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/themohuashow/For any other queries EMAILhello@themohuashow.comMohua's BookIf Only It Were Spring Everyday: https://amzn.eu/d/ieUSuDYEpisode SummaryJoin us in an enlightening conversation featuring Reema Ahmad, a passionate proponent of comprehensive sexuality education and co-founder of Candidly. She candidly shares her own journey of overcoming childhood and marital abuse to become a fierce advocate for sexual and reproductive health rights. She views comprehensive sexuality education as a critical tool for empowering individuals, particularly children, by enabling them to understand their bodies and make informed decisions. Reema recognizes the societal taboos and challenges associated with sexuality education, but firmly believes in the role of organizations like Tarshi in crafting safe, inclusive spaces for these crucial conversations. Her advocacy extends to a holistic approach, encompassing not only children but families, schools, and communities. Drawing on her certification in trauma work and narrative therapy, Reema addresses systemic issues while providing a compassionate, non-judgmental environment for individuals to process their trauma and reclaim their experiences.Chapters00:00 - Introduction02:32 - Empowering Communities Through Sexuality Education06:38 - Healing through Relational Support in Counseling10:07 - Holistic Approach to Sexual Health Education17:28 - Empathy-Driven Narratives for Social Transformation22:30 - Gender Equality through Historical and Cultural LensDisclaimerThe views expressed by our guests are their own. We do not endorse and are not responsible for any views expressed by our guests on our podcast and its associated platforms.#ComprehensiveSexualityEducation #EmpoweringCommunities #GenderEquality #TraumaHealing #SystemicIssues #AbuseAwareness #MentalHealthSupport  #SocialChangeThroughStorytelling #Inclusivity  #CommunitySupportThanks for Listening!

We are all weary of abuse rocking our churches, seminaries and ministry organizations. Offences range from sexual abuse to bullying and harassment. Our guest Lydia Fawcett brings years of experience in social work and more recently in abuse prevention with the Mennonite Central Committee. She helps us understand what abuse looks like and feels like, and what a healthy culture in our faith communities looks like and feels like. Plus, if you grew up believing Bathsheba was the one in the wrong, you're in good company. You won't want to miss this conversation. Learn about the Abuse Awareness and Prevention Network: https://www.abuseawareness.net Visit the MCC Abuse Response and Prevention page: https://abuseresponseandprevention.ca See and download some of the resources Lydia mentions in the interview: https://abuseresponseandprevention.ca/#resources A look back in time to the Columbia Bible College situation referenced by Lydia: https://www.themaplist.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Murray_Phillips_story_ChristianWeek.pdf

Connie Baker, LPC author of Traumatized by Religious Abuse and a therapist who works with survivors of religious trauma, joins Uncertain to discuss what thriving might look like after Spiritual Abuse. This is a nuanced subject, intended to provide hope (not pressure!). Thank you for joining us for Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month in 2024! [00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing, and this is Uncertain. It's Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month, and this is our last episode of January 2024. My guest today is someone who It has become very, very special to me. Her name is Connie Baker. She is a therapist. She has a book for survivors of religious abuse. And Connie was our very first guest speaker at our very first in person event.Back in October, and it was phenomenal. She can speak to the survivor experience in such a meaningful way because she is one. And she's been doing this work long before I even heard of spiritual abuse.She has so much knowledge and I trust her to address this subject of thriving after spiritual abuse with nuance and care because nobody wants to be pressured [00:01:00] into thriving when you're just trying to survive and that's not the point of this episode but this is a glimmer of hope for down the road that maybe someday maybe someday We will be here. Here is my conversation with Connie Baker.Katherine: Hello, Connie. How are you? Connie: Good. So fun to see you, Catherine. I'm so Katherine: excited to see you again. For our listeners, Connie was our guest speaker, keynote speaker at the RetreatCon, which was Terzian's very first in person event in the fall. She was phenomenal. I loved every moment of her. Connie's talks, but then also just getting to hang out with this person.So if you have a chance to buy her book and oh shoot, I'm totally blanking on the name of your book. What Connie: is it? It's right, Traumatized by Religious Abuse. Yes. Say it one more time. Traumatized by Religious Abuse. Katherine: Beautiful.Wonderful. Amazing book. Very, very, very practical. A lot of folks [00:02:00] have named your book is just very practical for survivors. And one of the things that we invited Connie to do at the retreat con was speak about. Yeah. thriving after spiritual abuse, which I think so many of us are surviving. Maybe we're healing.We don't really talk about like that moment when you get a chance to just kind of come out of that survival space and laugh. And have fun and see the sun and, and it seems impossible sometimes that we'll ever get to that place. Yes. But, but Connie, Connie is really great about making that realistic. Not, that's, that's what I think I loved about it.It's not fluffy and silver linings. It's realistic and I learned so much from your talk. So I'm really excited to get to jump into that again. to just get us started and sort of lay a [00:03:00] foundation for discussing what it's like to thrive after spiritual abuse after we've been through this. Could you paint a picture for us of what the impact of spiritual abuse feels like?Like, what does that look like to someone? Oh, Connie: yes, yes, I can. Yes, I can. And before we go there, Catherine, I just want to say, I am so thrilled that that was the first retreat. Like, in other words, others are following. It was so, and I know you probably talked about this in follow up podcasts after the retreat, but it was powerful having all those humans.And I think there was also extra power in it post, well, post late pandemic, whatever we're calling this thing for people to to. Humanly be in the same space and connect. I think, well, Terry, just remembering it, it just was so [00:04:00] powerful. And so I'm just thrilled that you are hosting. Cause we talked about this when I was there.We both have hosted big events before, you know, in our life. And I know what it takes to put something like that on. What was there 25, 30 people somewhere in that range, you know, and, and to have that. And the spaces that you. Provided anyway, I just want everybody to go to second annual. Yes, everybody to thank you so much.Yeah, no, I just I'm just reflecting thinking back just with you even, you know, yes, just being here with you. Remembering just the. Goodness. And all the things that happened there. Katherine: Yeah, I, I've, I felt all of those things too. And just was just so thrilled at, I mean, I just like picture that weekend and it's like surrounded and like sunlight and warmth in my mind.Like that's the image. It was just such a warm. Just, oh, [00:05:00] and then that whole idea of thriving after spiritual abuse, like we got to taste it, this can be real. This isn't fake. This isn't this isn't false positivity. This is genuine, you know, just joy, like an experience of joy.And the fact that like, oh, after all, all of us have been through, you know, And in this room and we're laughing together. Like it was just like, Oh, we Connie: laughed so much. Oh my gosh. And you brought a lot of that. You and your leadership team are just pretty damn funny. And we had a lot of fun with that. And so, yeah, I just wanted to say that when you're talking about that connection, because it really, it really was, I'm just like, no, y'all sign up for number two, second annual Be there.Katherine: So be there for the second one. Absolutely. Connie: Exactly. Exactly. So anyway, the question he asked me, what is it? What is the impact of spiritual [00:06:00] abuse? Oh my goodness. I think, I think a lot. In fact, we talked about this at the retreat. I think a lot in life domains. I think it helps break down sometimes. Like what is What is happening to me?Because it just feels like an avalanche. It feels like you are rolling down the mountain in an avalanche and you can't see what's up down, you know. So I guess I think about, you know, different domains of life spiritually. Oh, let's, let's take Let's take the explosion 1 right off the bat. It can not not have an impact spiritually.And that doesn't mean that you're for sure going to walk away from the faith, although that absolutely could and sometimes should be what a person does. That's it. It's not just permission. It's like, no. You find your path. But there's a big [00:07:00] range of what that means, means, but there is no way there is not huge levels of damage, spiritually.It's like existentially, let's take God out of the mix, even, if you're, it doesn't matter whether you say, Whoa, I'm not about this God thing anymore. You still have to rewrite meaning purpose. Life after death, the, the, the, what is a human being? I mean, you just gotta rewrite all that. It's just huge.So there again, spiritually, it, it can be devastating. And often is. Often, for me I think. What am I in decade? I've done, I'm over three decades past my primary spiritual abuse and there's still times I go, okay, still rewriting a little bit of this. Katherine: It went, it went deep. Connie: Yes, it goes deep. So then I'm thinking the impact on the body.Most people don't get out of it without sickness, or, or [00:08:00] injury, or, we're connected beings, so physically it can just smack ya. In so many ways, I'm not gonna elaborate, but just to help people think through what is the impact, you know? Then you've got the emotional, psychological, which most people go through.first. And it's like, right, that's true. Katherine: Yes. Yeah. I'm probably the one that makes most sense. Yes. But as you said, we're integrated and Connie: it's going to affect our bodies and our spirits and our whatever we want to call it. So, so the trauma, I mean, you and I are therapists and those listeners who've heard, you know, you, you know, your stuff and Trauma affects our neurological system, our, you know, our brain, our body, our thought process, our emotions.And so it's just, it just is so extensive and pervasive. I think is another good word. Then you get into the social realm. Yeah. What does it do to families? [00:09:00] Oh, . What does it do to friendships, to community, to parent child relationships, to marriages, to partnerships? I mean the social impact and community. Oh, how I was just telling client this, I think two days ago.It was yesterday. We were talking about, she's like, I just, I'm trying to sort out how to get community. And I could tell by how she was talking about it, there was kind of this framework, like, I'm the only one. Why, why, why is this so hard for me? I'm sure other people have it together. There was kind of this underlying implication.And I said, you just need to know something. Do you know, I have this conversation almost daily. Wow. With my clients. What? How? You're not the only one. No! Please! Rebuilding, especially if you've been raised in the church, [00:10:00] Rick, the, okay, we all know on this podcast. What the toxic streams that run through organized religion.We're clear on that. But I'm telling you, for better and for worse, they do community like nobody else. Katherine: Yeah, and that's just the reality of like how to find that type of organic community. Oh! Side of the church that that I think that's probably the biggest grief for me. And then for so many people How do I get that that's the part I miss the most Connie: besides trauma recovery I would say community especially if we're talking about thriving when people are finally Starting to put their head up above A little bit and look around to see the devastation.That's one of the first questions and it's one of the hardest. So if Those listeners If you guys are struggling to say, how do I do? Community you are not alone. It is [00:11:00] like one of the core themes after trauma recovery I would say it's number two of saying how do I get the social support and the community?Resources that I used to have in a church because it is what Organized religion does for the positive. It, it provides consistent meeting places, a common worldview, and a common purpose you're working toward. And I feel like those three things are just in reflection over three decades of trying to sort all this through.Those are the three things I've come down to. A lot of organizations have one or two of those, but the power is all three. And it, This consistent meeting time, again, the consistent meeting time, the common world, commonly held worldview, and doing something, making something together, you know, creating something together.Oh my gosh, like, it's a powerhouse, I think in a very positive way. [00:12:00] We all know it can go very toxic and all that, but there's also we, we continue our, I think our souls continue to look for that when we say, I can't do that thing anymore or in that way. Even if you stay in an organized religion in a church, almost everybody I know says, Oh, my relationship with church is completely different.Like it used to be everything. Okay. So we're getting all. Yeah. The community topic, the damage is so huge and then it can damage things like your finances. All can wipe out your finances to go through religious abuse or to be religious abuse or either one and then you've got career. It can even shift career paths for people.And so my hand, yes, right. Exactly. My career. Yeah. Oh, totally. I would never have gone into this field without without my abuse. Not never, but highly unlikely. Honestly. So, so all these different domains of [00:13:00] life, it can. It can determine where you live, you could make up and have to have a move. So I just want to just to be able to bring all that in and say, you know, the impact is monumental.Right. Katherine: And when you said at the beginning, just like addressing that spiritual part, I think that for even folks who have experienced it we'll kind of do this like compartmentalizing thing of like, it's just, I just need to figure out that part and like what I believe now. And, and then maybe, or even compartmentalizing it and like, okay, I am done with God and I'm done with church and I'm moving on.But then not recognize all the other places that that is impacting and try to address that one compartment of spirituality. And so I'm very thankful to you for pointing out all of the ways that this can impact us and that we can't just compartmentalize and just say the right [00:14:00] spiritual thing.Connie: Yeah, we can't and we can't compartmentalize any of them. Even even when you talk about mental. You know, you and I are therapists. When we talk about the mental emotional realm, you can't compartmentalize that because we're hooked to physical bodies and we're hooked to worldviews and existential ideas and money and it's like, no, you know, whatever it is, that part alone, if that, if our brains and neurological system take that hard to hit, it's going to have, it's going to have bleed over into other domains.And so, yes, but I totally agree often. Yeah. Because that's how our brains are trained to think all spiritual, to be very compartmentalized and say the spiritual is the most important. And I think that's, I think that's fine to think that, but it's not the only. You know, and, and to say, Oh, I'm just going to figure out we can cuss on here, right?Yes. In the spiritual, I'm thinking, I'm just going to say it in the [00:15:00] spiritual realm, get it gathered there. We'll just make everything. Okay. It's like, Oh. You've taken a lot harder hit than just a spiritual issue and that's huge. I'm not minimizing it. I'm just saying it's, it does not stand alone, which is what exactly what you're saying.Katherine: Yeah. And then I also appreciate you highlighting the financial part too, because I think that that's a. a place that is sort of a hidden impact of it. And, you know, maybe your career and you like switch jobs or you get a new job or you switch careers or you move or Connie: you or might have to make a physical move.Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. Or you, you didn't, or your job wasn't impacted and you weren't like on staff at a church or something and you were still able to do your job. But then. The physical impact that leads to potentially having to go on meds or, or getting ill, as you mentioned, or having to go to therapy and pay [00:16:00] for therapy.Like, I mean, I just think of like how much money I've spent on therapy in a decade. I'm like, I could have bought a house with that money. Connie: So Katherine: much money that I am very. Believe was very well spent. I don't regret spending it. But at the same time, it's like that. That is a massive one of the reasons. Yeah.And one of the reasons by tears of Eden, we offer our support groups for free because there are so many other things that people have to spend money on to recover. We don't want to give you another thing that you have to spend money on in order to recover. So yeah, I really appreciate you highlighting, highlighting all of those things for us.What are some of the initial steps that you have seen people take in that healing journey? Common, common things that people will do. Once they have come out of this really horrendous experience. What are some of the steps? Connie: Oh, that's a [00:17:00] great question. Well, you know, I'm a therapist. And so 1 of them is they're coming to therapy is 1 of them.And, you know, and let me say something. I truly don't believe that therapy is the only way to heal. I truly don't. I think there are people. And there are resources and there are online resources. There are so many things that can help us heal. And a lot of times people go, Oh Connie, you know that person.Oh my gosh, they so need to go to therapy. And, you know, and, and I'll be like, I need therapy. Yes, exactly. Well, I, I see why you're saying that. Yes, indeed. But, but really, There's also, therapy is one piece of a pie in healing, so, and sometimes it's a really essential pie, and part of the piece of the pie, and sometimes it's not that [00:18:00] essential a piece, sometimes people do a really good job of doing their own work using other resources, so what I see is people, you know, what they start doing, part of it is they start actually processing their own story in some way or another, so They're like, okay, what, what just happened to me?Like, I know I was just in an explosion or an avalanche, whatever we want to call it. But, like. What happened? How did it happen? How did it happen to me? What happened? A lot of times it's not even clear what exactly took place. All I know, I'm bleeding out an artery and I don't know exactly what happened.Was, was I in a car wreck? Or was it a tornado? Or was it an avalanche? Or how did I get here? So I think processing this story is, [00:19:00] is another thing that people really start doing when they Just like survive the first initial Blow and saying either I'm distancing myself or I'm getting out or whatever form that takes.I think those are a couple really big things right off the top. They start and to heal and thrive. They start having to make connections with other people who get it. Somehow, there may not even fully be other survivors, although I think that's super helpful and healing, but at the beginning, it just may be somebody who has a good sense and and will Katherine: validate.That was a big deal. Yes, Connie: that was really painful. Yes, exactly. And that was traumatizing and. Wow, how did you survive that the validation feels like such and and they and I think most people in some way or another start getting educated about it [00:20:00] and that's the answering what happened and I know my book I always say I wrote to me at 25 years old I wrote saying what girl what did you need to understand that you had no clue about that would have Facilitated your healing instead of taking a decade to think I was going to survive the resources we have now.It's like, you can't speed up the process, but you can help it and aid it and keep from getting from. Infected you know, re traumatized. There's certain things you can do to help healing progress. Well, and I didn't have a lot of that. So that definition of what happened, how was I vulnerable? I'm a strong, yeah, I'm a strong cognitive person.How did, how did this happen to me? I'm a leader. How did this happen? So, you know, all of those things, I think sorting out [00:21:00] the story, getting validation from other people who go, whose eyes get wide and they're like, What did you go through? And especially when you've got a whole community that's basically saying, it's your fault.You know, the whole, if you leave a community, the whole community is like, Hmm, your problem, it's your fault if it's an abusive system. And Katherine: that's a lot of people saying that about you. Connie: Oh, you're, sometimes your whole world. I mean, everybody that matters. As saying that you're Paul and I remember telling the story to other people, including my second date with my husband, who is now my husband.There was some good trauma dumping that happened there anyway. And honestly, it was also some important information both of us needed to know. And. And so I remember telling him and him being a pastor, a former pastor, he looked right at me and said, that was abuse. Nice. Oh, there were probably some abusive [00:22:00] elements, but I was, you know, it was my issue.I made some bad choices. Oh my gosh, thank God for my husband, you know, who was like calling bullshit. Yeah, this was abuse. Yeah. And to tell other people outside of the system and watch their eyes get wide and say, they did what to you? They did. And those people who don't know my story, I was sexually abused by a pastor and then blamed by the church and.kicked out for it. That's the short story. And so, you know, to hear people, to tell my story, not in those words, actually taking much more responsibility. For what happened and then look at me and say they did what and I'm like, why are you not saying? Why did you do that? Yeah And it's just so important to have those other people So those are some of the immediate things that come to mind when I think of what people are doing I'm sure there's a much better list, but those are some immediate things when Katherine: people are processing their story in the aftermath?What [00:23:00] percentage of folks or what? range of folks It's that process their story, but not just the story of the abuse, because I'm thinking of another domain that this might resuscitate is, is your past and like, Oh, what happened in your childhood that like brought you to this place and how. How are, I mean, I know that that happened for me of, of knowing that the trauma that I was experiencing in the church, because it was so similar to what I experienced in my family, that I was severely, not only traumatized in real time, but I was also being re traumatized, and having to balance that.So, yeah, what percentage of people were, were it impacts their entire life story, not just that part? Connie: I, I don't see Always, never, every, but I will say 99. 9%. Yes. Katherine: I'm not going to say every person, but I'm going to say most people. Connie: Yeah, pretty much every person. Yeah. Part of it [00:24:00] is because we bring, this is part of brain science, is we bring our paradigm, our neuropathways for positive and for negative to every situation we encounter.And so if we're, if, If power and control dynamics are already familiar, and if you're raised in conservative religion, they are. They can't not be. And the more conservative and fundamentalist, in my view, the more power and control dynamics come into play in the institution and the world view, those are deeply familiar and viewed as positive.And so you, how would you not step foot? Yeah, into a system that loves power and control and eventually misuses it. And so to me, and you don't understand those dynamics. I mean, you just don't, you don't get that when you're [00:25:00] raised like that. This is, you know, the Bible says, God says, the pastor says it's, it is.What's considered by everybody to be incredibly positive, helpful you know, the right thing. And so to bring that, the, all those neural pathways that form a worldview and you put trauma, most of us, 99. 9 percent of us have either trauma with a capital T or a lowercase T in childhood and adolescence, you don't survive this life without.Massive jolts as a child or adolescent. So then you create worldviews. Around those, you're bringing them into the next, if they're not processed well, and most of us take our lifetime to process these well, and that's not discouraging, that's just realistic, but we usually don't have it all processed at 20 years old, and, no, we don't have it all processed then, and so we're bringing even previous trauma, and the [00:26:00] familiar feel of how that got there, and, So, yes, we're, it is, I have yet to sit with a person for very long and say, Oh, this is the sole thing we're talking about.I don't even remember ever doing that. It's like, okay, we're talking about this, but they start saying, Oh, my gosh, this was a replication of this situation in my childhood. Yes, it was. It's what we do. And there's no, there's no shame in that. It's just what, it's how our brains work for better and for worse.This is, I mean, you know, us therapists deal with pathology, but our brain has also given us all kinds of survival tools, how we cope through all of that. So, Katherine: yeah, and those things can sometimes even help to like the process of just like recognizing that something is helping us recognize something is wrong or helping us helping us wake up.And that that those experiences are can also be just really Can be helpful and [00:27:00] and our resources that we can tap into as we are in that healing process, and I don't want to skip over the healing process as we jump into thriving so I just want to create a disclaimer of like when we talk about thriving.This is, this is like. A way to just provide some future hope. Not as a way to put pressure. We're not saying you need to be here or you need to be here at a certain time. Connie: In fact, some people shouldn't be here yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't want them to arrive yet. Right. Right. You know, it's, that would, you know, and I use physical metaphors all the time, but that's like, you know, when I was going through cancer and treatment saying you need to start training for a marathon girl.No, no, it's not Katherine: that's the need to get through your day. That's what Connie: exactly survive today. Make sure you're getting something in your stomach. Make sure your nausea meds, you know, whatever it [00:28:00] means. It's not time to do a marathon, but we're talking about a level. Of robust health in the future that's possible and that's where I just yeah, I, I remember at the retreat.I said, how many of you know, I said, how, how does us talking about thriving land or something to that effect because I knew there were going to be people that are going, Oh, shut up. I don't want to keep flagging. I'm like, and, and good for you. That's right. Because your system is telling you this is premature and.And just take it as that. Say, yeah, I'll hear this, you know, have, listen to these two yapping about thriving. But I also think it could be, it's a hopeful beacon too, to say, you're going to be able to. And, and some of you listening, I know are, are either on the verge or starting to say, I think I'm past survival mode and it will be your time to hear some of this.Yeah. And, Katherine: and one of the, the markers [00:29:00] of trauma is feeling stuck. And have this vision of like, it will not always be this way. There is a time in the future where you will laugh again, and you will thrive. That can help unstuck us. And that's the point of this. This episode not to say you should drive. No.Why aren't you thriving yet? Absolutely not. No, no. Connie: I'm so glad we're talking about that because yeah, it's like, no, some of you, and I think it'd be, it's great for people even right now to take a breath and say, how do I feel about this topic? What? And most of the time, what mixed feelings? It used to, we're not one way or the other, but what mixed feelings do I have about this topic?And to just, you know, welcome all of those feelings about it and, and honor them as we talk, Katherine: and if you, and if you feel like. This is where you, you leave us and you need to [00:30:00] pause the episode and come back in a few months or a few years. You're, you can do, you can do that. Connie: Please do that. Exactly. Katherine: Absolutely.With that, what's thriving Connie: and how do we get there? What is thriving? Well, you know, there's all kinds of ways to define it. But of course, I, MarkerConnie: a bit of a nerd, you know, just kind of, I'm thinking, what is the definition? And I went to, you know, some good old dictionary, standard dictionary definitions, and I like them.To grow or develop vigorously. Isn't that a great word? Oh, I love it. To prosper or flourish. Oh, I like the word flourish. Yes, isn't that beautiful? To do particularly well under specified conditions. That's another one I loved about. Oh, that's Yes to do particularly well under specified, you know, because then that gives us options to say [00:31:00] Kinda like a plant.What specific plant food does that plant need? Does it need more light? Less light? Does it need more water, less lot water and to, to allow ourselves, I think the individuality of healing and then thriving needs to be honored. Mm-Hmm. It is not a prescription. Okay. I mean, how often Catherine, you know, this happens.My, my clients are like, how long is it gonna take me to get better? Give me, give me a time frame. Okay, we've been doing this Katherine: for a while. Let's, let's Connie: Yeah, let's First of all, with the physical body, it's much easier to do that, and there are still, you know, doctors still fudge and say, well, you could be up and around in three days, or it could be up to like three months, you know?I mean, there's, even in the physical body, There are those, this doesn't always everybody, everybody's body doesn't do it the same and you put that in a [00:32:00] brain in a, in a neurological system and the variables are huge. So I just want everybody to, you know, be able to say, this is my journey. I mean, the downside is we can't say, okay, process your story and month one.Do this in month two, you know, it doesn't work like that. First of all life happens, right? I mean, yeah So and so to come back and just honor This is my path and something you said earlier to we often feel very stuck in trauma recovery But most of the time and I will say this is most I would say but I would say 19 out of 20 Times when my clients say I'm stuck.I'm like, oh, okay That's kind of that's important to look at are you stuck? So let's take a look. So are you? Exactly where you were a year ago. Oh, no. Not, oh gosh, [00:33:00] no. Oh. Then maybe this isn't stuck. They hate this. Cause, especially the ones who've been with me a while. I feel stuck. Don't say it. I know. Yeah, don't say it, because it's just taking longer than we want to.Yes, we would like to feel better tomorrow, thank you very much. It's like, so, so, to honor the fact that this takes time, and often if we're not moving quick enough, we say, I'm stuck. And I'm like, it feels like stuck, but let's look at actual progress and sometimes I'll say, are you exactly the same place you were even three months ago.No, Connie, I'm not, you know, I mean, they're like, whatever, but I want to honor the stuck feeling because it is there, but let's not call it actual stuck because that's actually not where we're at. So how did we get here? Catherine, Katherine: we were talking about, Oh, I don't know, but I was really chocked up. Connie: [00:34:00] Good.Good. So I just want to go driving. And Katherine: how do we get there? What is, yeah, what does driving look like? And then how do we, how do we get there? That was the original Connie: question. Good. Okay. So what's thriving? I think that looks different too, for different people. And it's going to look different than it did before.That's the other thing. I think we need to accept and kind of reconcile. In ourself, sometimes it is going to look like like the name of the treat was retreat was laugh again, and it's like eventually laughter needs to be another part of your life again, the ability to laugh hard and laugh freely, but even the laughter and what it's about the texture may feel different than it did before.And that's not all bad. Most people when they are really starting to thrive will say. Of [00:35:00] course, I hate what I had to go through, but I actually like me better now. Mm hmm. What, what bigger success is there than that? To me, that's, and I know that's my story. It took me 10 years in a very dramatic moment. I write an epilogue in my book, a very dramatic moment.For me to go, Oh, I like who I am and not that it was right that it happened, but there's, I think it was evil that what happened to me and it should never happen to anybody, but there was a part of me that said that has made me who I am and my gratitude for that was profound and I find that's pretty consistent and so it's maybe different.And it likely is going to be different, thriving, than what it used to look like. But I also think thriving is going to have greater dimension, and wealth, and color, than it did before. And that, [00:36:00] that's, to me, that's the beauty of suffering handled well. Like you actually get in suffering. I am not Again, don't hear me saying woohoo for suffering No, a lot of it is needless and should never be there and I don't wish it on anyone that said I feel like beauty can come from that and Healing and not just okay.I'm better like, okay. I got over it But a sense of oh who am I now that I really love that I didn't have Parts of me before that are here. Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a a hurdle to get past this like reality of like, yes, this should have never happened. Yeah. Yes. And, and, and this is a, this is a churchy word, this is a Jesus word, but it's also just a word.I see that rather than like, Oh, justification for what happened or a reason for what happened and rather like a redemption. [00:37:00] Yes. Get to step into. And now we get to claim and we get to say this happened. Yes. But despite it, this is now who I am. Yes. Yes. Resiliency of the survival spirit and the human spirit that is ours to access.Yes. And that abuser or abusive system does not get the final word. Connie: No. We do. That's right. And that where I love that's so funny. I I was thinking I hope she's gonna use the word redemption Because you know the church has Hijacked the word and stolen in many ways and made it its own domain its own territory.It's not There's something beautiful about something that word Yes, they don't own it and for us to say no something could be redeemed something Some beauty could come out of something horrible. And I think that is, that is apart [00:38:00] from and across religious perspective. That's, that's just one of those, that's a, that's an existential life thing.And it's like, let it, let it, let it be there. So, you know, part of, we talked about this at the retreat, Catherine, but part of thriving, first of all, I think, to, we need to see our all or nothing assumptions. Around thriving, we, we often, I think, especially when we're hurting and trying to heal and trying to survive, we see thriving as a light switch.That's going to pop on 1 day. And, oh, now I'm thriving and even as I say that, most of us who live past. Probably 18 years old, we'll say probably doesn't work quite that way, but it's an underlying assumption that it's going to be. All better, that all domains of [00:39:00] life will be thriving at the same time, and that it is a steady, straight line toward thriving.This, this, this, these steps, and you're on it. It is a crazy, twisted, three dimensional graph. And it's, you know, if we're saying straight line on a graph toward thriving, It's a mess. It's a snarled mess to get there. And there are going to be areas, I would venture to say that even the people who are hurting the most listening to this right now have areas of their life that they are actually thriving.They may not be willing to look real carefully at that because it might feel invalidating, which it's not but, but to be able to actually there are certain areas of my life that are kind of on track. I mean, my husband and I started dating [00:40:00] fully recommended six months after I was went through the abuse.It actually was exactly what it should have been for us. Yeah, again, not necessarily recommended. But. We, that part of my life was very beautiful while I was bleeding out arteries in so many other domains of my life. Does that make my time with, you know, my courtship and my, even that has a lot of baggage to it, our dating years, whatever, you know, dating time less valuable?Or less than? No, it was actually quite a shining light. Does it make my other suffering less? No, it was horrific. And so, just to, just to look at that and to say, it's not an all or nothing proposition. And it does to hold that lightly and accept the fact that It's, it's not going to be an [00:41:00] all or nothing where all of a sudden one day life is just going to be all easier and all better.Yeah. Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. And I think I really appreciated that visual picture that you provided us at the retreat where you gave us domains on a piece of paper and it was just like a bunch of different blocks of different domains, family, social life, work life, spiritual life, all these different domains. Yeah.And, and you said something to the effect of you can be thriving and have a few of these domains that aren't thriving. Like you can be thriving in general and then have a few domains that aren't going so well. And that was like a relief to me because I think I pictured thriving as everything is going great all the time.Connie: Right. Well, I have 12. I think of this the cat out. We're talking about I give up 12 domains and these are very flexible. These were [00:42:00] my domains. And I said, I remember saying that retreat and people can say, that's not even a domain for me, or I got different domains. And that's great. But these 12 domains, let me.Let me go through them real quick because I want to kind of talk about this. Is that okay? Katherine: Yeah, and then maybe I could get, if you have like a PDF or something, I can put it in the newsletter. If they, if I remember, I probably won't, but no, I have Connie: it. I have it. I couldn't get that to you. Yeah. So one domain is spiritual health when they're getting, I kind of referred to some of these earlier physical health.Emotional mental health, of course, isn't that great that I'd forget that one emotional mental health. That's the third. And then it in relationships is the domain of family, your significant other friendships. That's huge. And that can include community like we're talking fun and recreation creativity.Excuse me creativity adventure are all part of the fun and recreation and then I have a set that I don't know if anybody else uses, but I [00:43:00] love learning and skill building. I loved I'm a learner my heart. So I love like, what am I doing in that domain? My environment my home, my office, my car.How's that? You know, how are things there in my environment? And then. I've got finances. How are my finances? That's a domain. Work and career. How am I making a living? How's that going? That domain. And then I have a, my last domain is life contribution. And that, that, of course these areas overlap greatly.You know, they're not separate, but just for the sake of sorting. So my life contribution, what do I do just to contribute to this world? You know, and those are ways you do it in other domains as well, but I have it for me because well, I'm in a better place Yes, and I'm an Enneagram three So I forgive me even now so it just [00:44:00] is so when I look at all of these domains I have never That I recall in my whole life on a scale from 0 to 10, 10 being best ever, 5 being neutral, 0 being in the toilet.I have never been above between a 6 and a 10 in all these domains at one given time. There's always a path, there's always, it's a Katherine: neutral. But you would say you're still thriving. You would say. Yes. Yeah. Even if that's not, not everything is a Connie: 10. Exactly. I, I've got a domain right now that is chronically painful.There's some stuff family wise, chronically, like, ow, like if it, if it gets to a 3. 5, it's a good day in that domain. So it's a painful domain. I want to honor that. Like, yeah, that is [00:45:00] real and it hurts. And it doesn't hurt less because several other parts of my life are actually above six and, and thriving.And so just to give that example, I think about a time in my life when I was going through cancer where multiple domains Were like, finances, physical health, career, trying to keep together a private practice, all these domains were like in distress. And the friend domain was just freaky rich. It was just like, Oh, I would just add such gratitude around that.So a lot of domains in that time of life, it was. Below a five, but the, the upside was the friendships were just so beautiful and good. So I guess. I want to take away the illusion that thriving means everything is in the positive. [00:46:00] Katherine: Yeah. As we wrap up, if someone is listening to this and they're like, Okay, I think I'm curling out of that survival, and I'm, you know, my head's kind of coming up and I'm able to just maybe see a little bit of sunshine.What, what are some recommendations, resources that you would recommend to that person to start moving towards coming out of that survival space?Connie: One of the first things I can think of, and there again, I don't want this to be triggering because it can have some baggage with it, but this is brain science. This is not religion. And that is gratitude. I think reinforcement of what is actually going well. First of all, to allow validation for all the stuff that's hurting, like, we have this Western mindset that it's got to be one cancels [00:47:00] out the other.It's both and, that's life. But to go with gratitude, no shoulds here, what should I be grateful for? Get that out of your head. But what are you actually grateful for and if you're moving toward that thriving, I think that can really reinforce it I have a practice every morning of writing anywhere from six to ten things that i'm thankful for right then no shoulds That's the big rule.Should I be grateful for that? If I have to ask the question, it's not going on the list like So, no, but what am I actually, and some days that means I am actually grateful for a warm house. It's supposed to have a cold snap here in the Northwest over the next couple of days. And I'm like, okay, I actually am grateful for this warm house.Great. So to, to keep facilitating that, that's one of the first things that comes to mind. And voicing those neural pathways, a traumatized brain has deeply rutted, [00:48:00] painful and negative neural pathways. It just has such, there's such ruts of just the anxiety of waiting for the next shoe to fall, to, to, for the next bomb to go off, and to start saying, I'm going to reinforce.We're not getting rid of the risk of hard things happening, it's real. But to say, actually at the same time, these positive things are very true. They're just as true as the negative. This is a little quote fight I get in with my clients sometimes. Okay, it's not a fight. But to say, you know, you're saying all this negative is true.I agree, it is. And even the possibilities of negative are the truth. I can't say that wouldn't happen. But what about all the positive as well? It's an integrating of those rather than it's not Pollyanna. It's not rose colored glasses. It's an integrating [00:49:00] of actual reality and our brains say, Nope, only the negative is true.And I'm like, let's challenge that because that eventually becomes unhelpful. For our brains, and so somehow reinforcing telling people about the positive, the ones who are also validating the negative, not ones who are pushing you, Katherine: you're going to celebrate with you and can hold the both Connie: hand with you.Exactly, without toxic positivity, we do not want that, but so to keep moving there, I think social, you know, we talked about the challenges of. Friendships and community both of those. And I think those are a little different because you can have really good individual friendships without a full sense of robust community.Yeah, but those things help reinforce positive brain function. I mean, we just do better. unisolated. We do better connected with other humans. And so those are some, and there again, be gentle, [00:50:00] take time. It's just not going to happen overnight. And that's, it's a sometimes grueling road back, but worth it.It's worth the time and effort to say, Okay, well that friendship didn't go exactly like I wanted. I'm going to keep trying to create and develop positive connections. And I think also we're talking about spiritual, you cannot push this, but I want to give hope. I'm 30 years down. And so I feel like I have this perspective and I started what they called deconstructing 20 years ago.I didn't know what was happening to me, my spiritual life, my brain, nobody had a name for it back then. I was just freaking out going, I'm pulling back, I'm pulling back. Is this bad? Oh my gosh, am I going to hell? Ah, you know, and I started. Questioning deeply all this stuff. So I've been on this process a long time and there are months and years that you are going to live in limbo in that in, and it's, it is [00:51:00] so damn uncomfortable.It is. It is so uncomfortable and it is so essential that you do not rush through it. Yes, cut the process short. Yeah, but let me say sit with it in integrity you do finally come out on the other side not not with certainty I don't think certainty, but I think I can say with some solid ground to stand on I think that's a better way to put it just personally whatever that is for you you start If you don't circumvent the process, if you don't, you know, truncate the process, then you can move on eventually to go, Oh, I think I'm finding some solid ground.For me, that was years of limbo. It was unpleasant. It isn't for everybody. My brain works slower. It had several decades to rewrite. So it took a long time, but it was so worth it to say, no, you are, there's hope for [00:52:00] some solid ground existentially slash spiritually, not they're going to, I'm not, I'm not even interested in certainty anymore but a certain definition of who I am and how I relate to life in the divine.Katherine: Absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, I feel like this, this conversation has been kind of like a, it feels like a little pep talk. I feel inspired and yeah, just, encouraged. And I want this episode to end January spiritual abuse awareness month as just kind of like hope, but not hope of trying to put pressure on anyone to be here, but just to say.One day, one day, you're gonna be able to laugh again. One day, this limbo, five years, ten years, whatever, you're gonna look back and it's gonna be over, like this part will be over, or this, this, this. Season of Connie: this part will be over. [00:53:00] Yes, exactly. Katherine: Right. Yes. This has been so wonderful. I always, always enjoy talking to you as Connie: Catherine.Yes. Katherine: And the end of the episode, let folks know how to get in touch with you or find. Stuff that you are, you are working on. Connie: Yes. So let me get my book out. So I remember the exact title. The title traumatized by spiritual abuse, courage, hope and freedom for survivors. That's it. And then another subtitle is discover the cultures and systems of religious abuse and reclaim your personal power.So that's on the front of the book. That gives a bit, a bit of a Idea a range of what is in the book and get it on Amazon. So Connie Baker my website has almost. Everything you need on there Connie A. Baker, C O N N I E A as in Ann, my middle name, then baker, B A K E R dot com, Connie A. Baker dot com.It's got resources, videos, [00:54:00] probably has this podcast, a podcast I was on before with you. So, resources for people to listen to or look up and, yeah, I think those are the main I'm I'm on Facebook. Come on. Oh, I do have here. This is important. I do have a group of probably I think it's around right above 1000 people right now and online private.Yeah, I didn't. Oh, good. Yeah. And and I post regularly. And just to right now I'm giving a lot of questions for people to process their story. So that is overcoming Yeah, yeah, yeah. Overcoming religious abuse community. And that's on Facebook and I'm also on Instagram and Connie a baker is usually the handles on those to Katherine: find it.Yes. All right. Thank you so much. I will link as many things as possible in the show notes for folks. And thank you so much for being here and Connie: always, always a privilege. Thank you, Catherine. Thank you.

Julia and Jeremiah from the Sexvangelicals podcast (a podcast for providing the sex education the church didn't want you to have) join Uncertain podcast to discuss how Purity Culture can impact men.Some topics addressed in this episode: Erectile DisfunctionShame around sexSexual Agression Gender Binaries Check out two of the Sexvangelicals' episodes featuring Uncertain's host Katherine Spearing:Episode #53: Kicking Off the New Year with Spiritual Abuse: How to Leave a Controlling Family Environment, with Katherine SpearingEpisode #54: Kicking Off the New Year with Spiritual Abuse: How Romantic Comedies Can Reinforce the Worst Parts of Evangelical Culture, with Katherine Spearing Katherine: [00:00:00] Hello. How are you? Julia: Good. We're excited. Katherine: Yes. It is morning where I am, or early, early, early afternoon, and then it is evening where you all are. I know. So, thanks for giving up your Saturday night.I know you would. Probably normally be out wildly partying, Jeremiah: right? Wildly. The wildest Julia: of parties. Katherine: You in the Netherlands. Jeremiah: That's right. Hanging out with windmills and eating a bunch of cheese. Julia: Today is Sinterklaas and so I have heard that it is a chaotic time to be out. So this is a good day to be inside.We've got tea. It is raining outside. So this is actually a cozy and a Perfect way to send Saturday night. I love Katherine: it. I am so excited to be able to talk to you. I love, I love y'all's podcast episodes. I have recommended them to, I mostly recommend them to friends of mine who are recently [00:01:00] divorced and first exploring.All of the things that they were not allowed to explore pre evangelical marriage. And and so that's a, that's a recommendation y'all are a recommendation that I pass around to some folks. I love your intro. My favorite part about your, your. Podcast episode for listeners is how you, you kind of interview each other and chat like before your episodes, those, those are always really, Jeremiah: yes, absolutely.And we do talk about divorce a lot on our podcast. So, that is unfortunately a part of our story and, and, and how we've come into how we've come into recognizing the impact of purity culture on relationships, so. Is that a part Katherine: of both of your stories? Julia: It is. Yeah. We are both we are both divorced.Katherine: All right. And then, did you all get into doing what you do as sex and relationship therapy post [00:02:00] evangelicalism? Our post? These experiences or was this something that came up before, were you already working in this? Jeremiah: So I, a little bit of both for me. So, I joke with people, except it's not a joke, that I did my first couples therapy session when I was 12.And listeners, you can... Put some of the pieces together. I, so, so I've known for some time that that I wanted to be a couples therapist. Huh. And in the field of psychotherapy there's a specific license for marriage and family therapy. My license is in marriage and family therapy. And a lot of the marriage and family therapy schools are either at these big kind of research schools. So Ohio state has a big program where Julia went Michigan state has one or they're at Christian schools because the history of couples therapy and marriage family [00:03:00] of the history of couples therapy.The history of marriage therapy is pretty closely linked to the Christian community. In fact, our professional organization split in the seventies from the California organization because religious people, the, the pastors spiritual directors in the seventies said like, no, like what's happening in California is too liberal, is too progressive.Let's, let's talk about marriage and let's talk about marriage from the perspective of heteronormativity. And this is. A little bit before James Dobson starts taking over with, with focus on the family, but, but, but it's all connected to that. So. So my graduate program at Abilene Christian University is a Christian university.But interestingly, that was, I would say, probably the beginning of my deconstruction process too. Yeah. Because marriage and family therapy at its root is systems theory. So this idea that everything is interconnected you know, I can't succeed unless you [00:04:00] succeed. We, we talk about this through, through Desmond Tutu's work.And so, so I actually begin realizing, oh, like the church, a lot of the Christian stuff, like, like, isn't really making sense. It's clashing with systems theory. The system stuff makes a lot more sense to me. It connects. The problem is that in my twenties, I am employed by churches. Yeah. I'm, I'm a music my first career is through music ministry.And when I left Texas moved to Boston and very quickly get hired by a church to do music ministry. And so a lot of my thirties, then my early thirties is trying to figure out how to do a systems work. I later discovered sex therapy through, through my office. How to be a sexual health professional and to be a minister at the same time.And I thought I could pull both of them off. The church that I was in worked at claimed to be really [00:05:00] progressive. At the end of the day, I ended up getting fired. I ended up talking about sex therapy too much, made the wrong people uncomfortable, and I get the axe. Oh no! So I end up getting kicked out of Christianity, more so than leaving and choosing not to return to organized religion. Yeah, these Katherine: two things are very connected in your story, like you're very much and your vocation and your deconstruction are, are very entwined. Jeremiah: Absolutely. Julia: Yeah. Minor entwined but in a different way. Catherine when we were interviewing you, you had mentioned something that I could relate to which is the socialization for women to be some sort of caretakers within.fundamentalist, and other evangelical circles. Being a therapist is very much a nurturing type of career. The other career options I had considered were [00:06:00] teaching and nursing, also stereotypically nurturing, stereotypically associated with Christianity. So, I don't know if I would have become a therapist.Had I not grown up in the environment that I did. What a question, right? Right! Ultimately, I love it most of the time, but sex therapy was deeply connected to my deconstruction process. I got married young, at the age of 22. I am divorced and when I got married my world crumbled because I had learned that getting married, getting married young was a rite of passage into adulthood, would be the sign of my worth as a human being, and would ultimately be the way that I could access the sexuality that had been denied to me.And when I got married and I hated sex, when I got married and I didn't experience the desire from my husband that I was told would be [00:07:00] present all the time, because all men ever think about is sex, which I'm sure we'll come back to in this episode. My sense of identity shattered. My sense of identity was always in my purity as a woman, in my ability to perform my gender role, and in being a desirable person, particularly sexually.So I became very distressed and my first years married were awful for me, even though I didn't understand exactly what was happening. Yeah. I did, two years after getting married, find a phenomenal sex therapist in Boston. I will always give Nancy McGrath a huge amount of credit for my individual and relational growth.She was an amazing sex therapist, an amazing couples therapist. And my ex husband and I made a lot of progress, even though we did choose to get married. And just to get divorced. Yes. Yes. Even though my ex husband and I choose to got [00:08:00] divorced, choose to get divorced. And as I was continuing to grow, as I was continuing to heal, my therapist said, I was already a practicing therapist.She said, if you decided to become a sex therapist, you would be a great sex therapist. And that was such an affirming and healing moment for me in my sex therapy training. I admitted to myself and my therapist for the first time that I didn't want to be married. And so sex therapy training was really like the last Jenga piece that caused the tower to shatter.I wasn't an active member of a religious community when I participated in sex therapy training, but I still was. Connected to the religious world. And I was still married to my ex husband. And because I was married to a Christian man, I had status in my family system and I had status in all kinds of other systems.And then I lost my status within my family. [00:09:00] I lost my status within my community. My divorce was fodder for gossip at a funeral and becoming a sex therapist and ultimately getting divorced was what broke my connection to that world. Katherine: Woo! Goodness. Goodness. So this is somewhat of a rhetorical question that I know the answer to, but I still want to hear your answer.How interconnected is sex? To personhood and relational dynamics itself. How often do you see that connection? Jeremiah: Strongly. Strongly. Well, so, so there's two, two categories of that. In religious communities, absolutely strongly. We, we could talk maybe about the, the, the professional kind of non religious universal relationship about that later, but in the religious context very strongly, Julia: yeah.And I would say outside of religious contexts, [00:10:00] yes, but in a different way. So, when my, when I say that my sense of self crumbled after getting married, a big piece of that was sexuality. And so... I will sometimes have folks come to sex therapy in similar positions as me, and the couple might say something like, but it's just sex, and we still love each other, and I have a good life in all these kinds of ways, but it's not just sex for anyone.Sex is never just sex for anyone, but especially if you grow up in an adverse or religiously abusive context, sex is actually everything. And I'm not joking when I say everything. So if you get married and sex is painful physically or emotionally or relationally, that can have massive consequences in all areas of your life.Katherine: Right. Mm. So when you are a sex therapist and folks come to you for difficulties and [00:11:00] challenges within their sex life, very regularly, there's more happening and in their lives and in their relationships. Absolutely. Jeremiah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so there's a couple of things that, that come up one. Sex isn't talked about in a lot of, in a lot of couples, obviously it's not talked about at all in religious couples.Sex with each other, like they don't talk about it. That's right, that's right. Yes, yes, the church talks a lot a lot about sex. But the church doesn't give partners the tools or the skills to be able to talk about sexuality with each other. And if they do it's almost exclusively from the perspective of quantity, meaning how much do you want to have it?Yes. And from the perspective of performing gender roles where men are expected to have high volumes of sexual desire, interest, and women are expected to be asexual yet to conform to the, the needs of male partners.[00:12:00] The second way that, that this shows up is around just in, in general,, if a couple doesn't have the skills and resources to talk about sexuality, what else do they not have the skills and resources to talk about?Katherine: Right. Julia: Yeah. A whole lot of other things. That's right. Money, or child rearing, or household management. How to Jeremiah: deal with families of origin. So a lot of stuff gets avoided, and there's a lot of conflict avoidance that we find. And the second thing is that for the couples who are able to talk about sex and sexuality, there's a lot of variance regarding sex.Sex can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Culturally speaking, sex is often thought of as a euphemism for intercourse. Julia: Vaginally penetrative intercourse. That is Jeremiah: correct. Yes. But what Julia, you and I talk about is that there's a lot of different ways that bodies can connect.Sometimes [00:13:00] involving a vaginal intercourse, sometimes not involving vaginal intercourse. Let's talk about all of it and let's talk about all of it from the perspective of like what kinds of touch do you want? And then also, how do you want that touch to happen? How do you, what do you need before your body gets the touch that it wants?There's a lot of different variables that Julia, you and I talk about, and that's on an individual level. And in couple therapy, of course, there's two people. So the ways that I go about sex are going to be different Julie from the ways that you go about sex. And, and then the work is, is how do we then make how do we make arrangements?How do we make agreements about? How to do sex, how to do anything, but for the sake of this conversation, how to do sex in a pleasurable, in a pleasurable way for both people. Yeah. Katherine: Yeah. So many, I'm like, as y'all are talking, I'm like, question, question, question, question, question, question. I Julia: know, that happens to me too.I was telling Jeremiah after our interview with [00:14:00] you and we took a bathroom break, I was like, I had 20 more questions to ask for Katherine: each episode. Well that just means that we have a podcasting relationship and we will do more episodes together in the future. This is the one, one, one, one interview I've already decided five minutes in.One interview is not enough. But one of the things that I wanted to focus on for this specific, this specific episode there is so much, and this is even just for me personally so much, uploaded A literature right now about how purity culture impacts women and women in relationships and what that does to marriages and dating and recovery after purity culture.I this is just, you know, a regular topic of conversation with my between myself and my peers. I was in a, I'm in a, like a [00:15:00] sort of deconstruction group. I call us the Renegades. And we met a couple Saturday nights ago and everyone's at different phases in their, their deconstruction.They're also at different phases in their sexuality and their sexuality exploration. And I just asked them just like a very, like, simple question of like, what would have been different? If you had been raised with like the full gamut of the feast in front of you and like that was the class that you got in Sunday school, as opposed to don't have sex.And then that's the end of it. And then also just for the subject of our conversation too, I asked them very specifically about what, so in evangelicalism, It's cisgender binaries of male and female, and you and there's no other category. And so I asked them very specifically, how did that impact you and this was all people who these are all [00:16:00] people who identify as, as, as female, and then how intricately connected that binary that gender binary is to this messaging.And so a question for you all when you meet with couples that come out of evangelicalism, what role does that binary play? In your conversations and, and for good or ill. Jeremiah: Sure. I'll start. And then I'm curious about how you'd answer that too. Again, a lot of folks coming out of evangelical systems don't have the relationship skills of the negotiation skills to figure out how to navigate one, how to navigate differences and to how to make decisions about a relationship based on their own preferences.So in the absence of that, they rely on gender roles. They rely on the performance of gender roles to [00:17:00] create expectations for, say, how administration gets done, how sex gets done, how parenting gets done, and there's a lot of resentment that is, that is there because Even though these things, these positions were assumed there weren't overt conversations about how to how to enact these you know, women and men both, like, they, they don't make verbal agreements to each other in the, in these contexts about Well, hey as, as a female partner, I absolutely want to do this particular thing as a male partner.I absolutely want to do these things. It's you should do these things. Yes. And any conversation that happens centers around the should. Like you Katherine: should do these things, not I would prefer that I do. That's right. Okay. Right. Absolutely. So one of the Jeremiah: things, Julia, you and I do with with regards to the binary is we do whatever we can to get rid of it.Katherine: I love that. Jeremiah: Yeah, [00:18:00] how would you answer that? I would Julia: agree with that. I'm sure that I'll have more to say as Katherine keeps asking questions, but the first part is recognizing What we learned about gender and how that has then impacted the relationship and what are the structures and systems and patterns that the couple falls back to.And if anyone has ever gone sledding in the winter, you know that once you've got a path that's slick, it's really hard to set a new path. So even if, like Jeremiah said, the gender roles are causing some resentment. I imagine that my ex husband probably developed some resentment around what gender role looked like for him.I had my own resentment around what that looked like for me. We didn't get ahead of the resentment by talking about it and negotiating it until it was too late. And even though that wasn't working for either one of us, it [00:19:00] was like a very slick... path down a sledding hill. And if you want something different, you've got to take that sled, move it to a new part of the hill, put it in snow that hasn't been down, and you've got to do a lot of hard work to create a new path that works.Katherine: Yes, absolutely. And it sounds like from both of your stories that sometimes that new path is a new relationship. Julia: Yes. Jeremiah: Sometimes. In our case, yes. Julia: Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. Sometimes it is a new relationship. Sometimes it is hard work with a current partner. And sometimes it is... Being a person who is partnered with multiple people or being a person who is dating and not partnered.Mm-Hmm. So it can look all different kinds of ways. When we talk about our podcast having a relational bent what we mean is that we live in relationships with all kinds of people. Mm-Hmm. That might mean [00:20:00] starting a new path on a new hill and your family's on another hill and they're like, you abandoned us.Katherine: What's going on? Yes. Yes. Absolutely. No, I love that. I love that. And that, that expands sexuality and relationships in general, because even, even if you have this dynamic within this couple, like our sexuality impacts how we interact with everyone. It's not just our intimate partner. And I've really enjoyed it.My. deconstruction journey, learning about that because it just expands possibilities and, and just, it makes it just beautiful and vibrant. And like, there's so much here and, and so very sad and also very angry at how narrow. The teaching that I received was and how very specific and gendered it was and, so sad.And then also just like, it's a [00:21:00] fucking lie. And yet. The we'll get in all of this, but just like the, the, the conservative agenda behind that lie and unpacking that as well. And, and having that just opportunity to grieve the opportunities that I was denied. And I know that's a part of me.So many people's journeys of just like grieve, grieving this, this loss that happened. How did that play out for both of you? Julia: The grief part or a different Katherine: part? Great. Yeah. Just the grieving. If, if that was a part of your journey. Jeremiah: Oh, I think it still is a part of our journey. Yeah. I think you and I both make reference.I'm trying to remember the last time you and I both made references to our former partners. It's been within the last week. . And, and reflecting about the sadness of, of, of painful things that, that we received. Even painful things that we said missed [00:22:00] opportunities. Mm-Hmm. To to explore and, and to have conversations that, that we didn't get the chance to have.Mm-Hmm. that the church didn't want us to have. Mm-Hmm. . So, yeah. Yeah, that comes up quite a bit. Yeah. Julia: I I haven't even mentioned this to Jeremiah yet, but. Something that I say when I talk about getting divorced is that my ex husband is a really phenomenal human being. And I am, I am sad that the education neither of us received, probably to a large, large part, impacted our decision to get divorced.I am rarely on social media because it is too overwhelming for me. However, I saw that my ex husband recently celebrated his two year anniversary to his new wife. And I imagine that he is an even better partner, probably, than he was with me. Not because he wasn't a good partner to me, [00:23:00] but because he has had life to grow and evolve and learn.And... I am very happy that he is in a partnership that seems to be really beautiful for him. And I am still, I'm still really sad. I'm sad that that relationship ended. I'm sad about the ways that I contributed to hurt. I am sad about the ways that I was hurt. And I know that I will probably think about my ex spouse to some degree.Daily or often for the rest of my life. Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. Because it, it, it doesn't just go away. Deca, deconstructing and rewiring those sled paths. It's not just a, like a one and done thing. Right. Jeremiah: Well, and it also happens while Julia, you and I are also figuring out our relationship and experiencing these really beautiful [00:24:00] moments that we have.And. Kind of hashing out how we want to do different things. Grief doesn't happen in this, like, process where you take a pause from life and you go off and, and, and you grieve for an extended amount of time. Like, grief happens in the midst of these concurrent processes that, that are happening in a person's life.And, and that, that makes it even more Julia: challenging. Yeah. And I can't grieve the end of my marriage without ultimately grieving The systems that raised me, the systems that conditioned if conditioned early marriage, the systems that taught me about what dating and marriage looked like. So whenever I consider my ex husband, whenever I consider the pain or the joy that we experienced, I, I'm unable to separate that from the lack of relational and sexual health education.From the religious systems in my life. Yes. [00:25:00] Yes. Katherine: And how just so entwined those two things are and and just the reality of like those, those indentions in the snow are going to be so much more defined when it's coming from. religious space. This is what God wants from you. This is what requires from you.And then everything in that system upholds that and supports it. And these things are very deeply embedded into us and is the soup that we swim in. And so I'm really excited to just get into some practical stuff and maybe provide a little bit of a resource for folks. I would like to concentrate our our conversation on specifically.How purity culture impacts men in, in these relationships. And I, I will, we'll, we'll just start with the, with the. Typical trajectory. How, how does does purity culture show up and impact men in dating relationships? Julia: Yeah, [00:26:00] something that I say on almost every podcast is that one of the biggest double binds or mind fucks that men experience in evangelical and other Christian cultures is that they are They're sexual aggressors, and that is the way that God made them, and they are supposed to, they should lean into that, and at the same time, that is part of their evil base nature, and they have to fight it.Mm hmm. That is. An impossible, impossible place to live to be told that you've got to lean in and embrace this, but that also this is the most debased part of who you are and that shows up in a myriad of contexts. Katherine: Do you feel like. Men tend to migrate towards one or the [00:27:00] other because of that double bind.Julia: That's a good question. Good question. I would say that I've noticed men... Jeremiah: I have a Julia: way of answering that. I've got an idea, but you go first because I'm still formulating it. Jeremiah: I would say that... Men who are interested in men who are interested in kind of reinforcing the gender hierarchies tend to lean more into kind of the Kind of the ownership of sexuality and, and then also the conflict in that, that, that can come from fromadvocating for that. I would say that men who want more egalitarian relationships. Especially in, in opposite sex context. I think that those are men who tend to struggle with that that the double bind Julia, that you're referring to a little bit [00:28:00] more and as a result 10, those relationships tend to have a little bit more avoidance to them.That's anecdotal. I don't know if that, I don't have any research to support that. I would Julia: say my anecdotal experience is mostly similar and I really appreciate the theme of this episode because I, I work with a lot of couples, but I also, for probably lots of different reasons, have many individual male clients between the ages of like 25 to 37.So we talk about this. a lot. And the really challenging part is that the gender binaries that we've described means that the misogyny reinforces the, or the, sorry, the the misandry towards men that they are sexual monsters that reinforces the misogyny and the sexism. And [00:29:00] then the misogyny continues to perpetuate this patriarchal pattern.Which is such an awful systemic issue. Yeah. Yeah. And so often the misandry and the misogyny are just like fucking having this orgasm together. Sadly. What Jeremiah: is the image of the orgasm? Like Katherine: they're feeding each other. Yeah. Satisfying Julia: each other. Right, and so I absolutely want to keep on the topic that you're describing, and I've been reflecting quite a bit on like specific impacts for men, and I think we have to still acknowledge at the beginning that all of the negative consequences towards men Still continue to hurt the entire relational structure and still continue to [00:30:00] prop up the, the sexist and misogynist norms of the patriarchy.Jeremiah: Can I give an example about that that doesn't involve sex? Sure, yeah, yeah. So, I'm seven and Enneagram? No, no, no. Age 7. Enneagram 3. Oh, Katherine: okay. Oh, oh, sorry. You're about to tell a story. Yes. Started when you were 7. Jeremiah: Yes, yes. So, I'm 7 years old. Julia: I knew where that was going, but it was confusing. Jeremiah: I'm 7 years old.And I am at a part of of a Bible study that a few of my families do on Wednesday nights, because heaven forbid, we don't have some sort of a church service two to three times a week. And at this particular group from time to time, I would be I would be the only boy that was there, only penis owner that was there.So my dad had to work or that was at least his excuse for, for not showing up. [00:31:00] I made a similar excuse. So some of the other men had to, had to work. So it was the mom's wives all the kids were little girls and me. And so at seven, I remember the women in the church and this group saying, it's a devotional time at Jeremiah because you're the boy you have to lead the songs.Okay. So little seven year old me like leads a song. Can you do an example of your accent? Oh, so I grew up in Texas. I had a. Thick southern accents, very flat vowels. My name had three syllables on it. Sometimes it had two syllables, Jerma. But, then they say, okay, well, you have to leave the scripture.You have to lead the prayer. And, you know, I know that I am not the only boy who has been in that [00:32:00] experience who learned early on that, that men and women look to boys to provide quote leadership and running shit. And that's something that is still to this day, something that. I, I make the assumption that people will look to me.Men and women will look to me to run things. I step into leadership roles and, and a lot of my healing work has been giving myself permission to, to, to step out of that. And, and, and I'm good at it. I, I think that I have I enjoy being in control more than I think sometimes I would like to admit, I've also taught you and I've both actually taught Julia with plenty of men who have had similar experiences and don't want any part of that.Yeah. Right. And, and play those roles both out of a sense of obligation to the system and also do so in a way that's antithetical to their own personality traits and to their preferences. They'd much rather play a more passive role, just kind of sit [00:33:00] back, kind of watch the world kind of do its thing.And, and, and they don't know what to do. We actually had an interview quite recently on our podcast with, with a couple of men actually for, for whom that was true. So yeah, so, so the expectation then that men are not just like sexual monsters or sexual initiators, but are initiators of any kind of process with, with the exception of domestic administrative processes, which is a whole other conversation we can get into in a bit.Except for cooking and cleaning. Yeah, right. And mending the stockings. Right, right. But yeah, that's, that's, that's a lot of pressure. That is a lot of pressure. That, that men get put on and it also, it also discourages men from moving into collaborative spaces. Hmm. This is something you and I actually Katherine: May I, may I pause here for just one [00:34:00] moment because one of the things that I have noticed in this, in the space that I work in the spiritual abuse realm.Is that same thing we were talking about a podcast earlier, talking on our interview earlier about art and being ingrained with this mistrust of art. I also believe men get ingrained with this mistrust of women and how I, my work is predominantly women coming to me one because women are. You know, it's more acceptable for women to look for help and to want to collaborate one.And then two, it's a woman run organization, like we have one male board member, but other than that, like, it is run by women, and they're not going to migrate. And I know this because I watched them migrate to the Wade Mullins and the other male leaders and and not migrate to the women, because it's still just [00:35:00] ingrained into.The physique. Yeah, Jeremiah: I actually think that Catherine that that's another double bind is that I agree with you that men that that this system that we're talking about you know, where Men are expected to be in leadership positions. Women from time to time reinforce that. And there's also plenty of women that are like, Hey, no, this doesn't work for me.And then figuring out how to navigate those differences. I think that that's right, that that there are a lot of men who mistrust women and simultaneously. I don't think that men really trust men any better either. And I think that this is actually true, Julie, with what you're talking about with your, your clients.Men are much more likely to seek an individual female sex therapist for individual therapy than they are to seek an individual male for individual therapy. Julia: Really? Absolutely. But, but I want to qualify something that you said. I think you said that [00:36:00] men are equally less likely to trust other men. I would say men.might be unwilling to trust men when it comes to kind of emotional issues because men are far more likely to trust men in more stereotypical leadership positions. But in terms of like the caretaking therapy to some degree has a caretaking element to it. And so I think that men Are uncomfortable talking about sex in general.Many people are. That's not a misandrist comment. And I think it can be easier for individual men to talk to a woman about sex than a man. I don't know if seeking a female therapist for couples or family therapy is as oriented. Not for couples and family therapy. But I think that. They're going to go Katherine: to a man.Julia: Right. Because, because, because of what you're describing, Catherine, around like trusting men in these [00:37:00] forward facing leadership positions in a family or couples therapy is more forward facing, so men are more quote unquote reliable. But if it's an individual context in which. There's the assumption that emotional nurture might be more a part of it.I think that men could be more prone to seeking a woman, just to seek a woman. But all of this goes back to Catherine, exactly what you're describing around men needing to be in over leadership positions. And Jeremiah, you use the word passive growing up in my community. Passive was used as derogatory.Yeah. And that a passive man was not a man. Right. So books like Wild at Heart and pour into my community every man Battle to fight, beauty to save. Yeah. Yeah. Every everyman's battle was popular in my community and it was all about, [00:38:00] men being assertive at best, aggressive, dominant, violent at worst, and I'm even thinking about, like, my dad, and my dad is not a particularly dominant person.If my parents were out of their religious system, I would probably ask my dad what that was like because I wonder if it was really hard to be in a system in which you were told that you had to be so overtly dominant when that wasn't part of your nature. Katherine: Yeah, I'm thinking about the women that I met with.That I referred to earlier and, and they just said how most of their relationships sort of defaulted into a functionally egalitarian relationship while they still espoused complimentary and they just [00:39:00] didn't tell anybody. I think Julia: that's, I think that's how my parents marriage operates. And I think that's how Jeremiah: my ex's parents.Julia: Many relationships operate. Yeah. Jeremiah: Oh, yeah. Hmm. That would be interesting to do research Julia: on. Just a clarifying Katherine: question about men seeking out a female sex therapist, more likely to seek out a female sex therapist. Is it possible that there's some shame? In that too of they're not going to talk to another man to admit that they struggle.Yes. Julia: I can give a great example. So I had a male client and I've had several iterations of this. And he came to therapy seeking help for quote unquote, erectile dysfunction. Diagnostic language around sexual health is so damaging to men and women. So I would never use that language of erectile dysfunction, but that was his language to me.That's why I'm using it. what I would say is that [00:40:00] sexuality had some challenges for him. And one of those challenges was having the erections that he wanted to have. So we tried to get away from diagnostic language as much as possible, but. He told me that it would be one of the most shaming things possible to have a conversation with another male about about sexual health in general, particularly because men learn in and outside of religious structures that part of sexual dominance is having a specific type of erection in a specific kind of way.And that is not how erections work for many, if not all people. We could have a whole con, a whole longer conversation about erections and what men learn about their penises and what they learn about erections. It might be even worthwhile later in our conversation, but [00:41:00] over time, I really encouraged this client to talk to some of his male friends about sexuality and what was working and not working for him.And one day he came into therapy and he was like, Julia. I had a conversation with one of my male friends about sex, and it was one of the most meaningful conversations that I've ever had. And If more men talked with each other about sexuality in non toxic, dominant ways, I believe that would be massively healing towards humanity in general, regardless of gender.If the shame was stopping him. Katherine: Yeah, and I just think about how... So much of the sexual conversations for men was accountability oriented and like, how are you guarding your eyes? And how are you guarding your heart? And, you know, you know, documenting how often you masturbate and all of these like [00:42:00] very shaming?So I can see that being so just so damaging for it Julia: is. And it's so it can I say one other thing about this. It's really interesting because in another conversation, the three of us talked about how the church is not as counter cultural as they think they are.But one of the main themes is this idea of like, You. In these cases, like, the humanity of women being fairly non existent, so in secular world, that means you just keep track of how many women you have sex with, and like, they are a number to you, and you want to get as high as possible, and then Catherine, what you're describing, when men are told to, you know, document how time, how many times they masturbate and then confess to another man and like not look at another woman.It's still like this idea of like women being objects. We had a conversation several podcasts [00:43:00] ago with our friends. Sarah and... Jake. Yeah. And, and Jake was describing about, you know, going to Six Flags as a youth group. And it's like, there's gonna be a lot of boobs out there.They wouldn't have said it that way. And it's like, just avoid the boobs. Like, and, and without any conversation that these are 13 to 16 year old girls. They are not walk Sets of boobs. Yeah. But whether they're children, right? Mm-Hmm. . And so, in and outside of these contexts, women are these vessels that you either have to conquer or avoid until you get married.And you have to document how you're either like dominating or avoiding Mm-hmm. in this really restrictive version of what it means to be a man. And in either context. You are essentially a sexual monster who is either dominating and giving in to the, like, desires of the flesh, or you're working really hard to, like, fight your sin nature, and that makes you a good Jeremiah: man.And we have language for [00:44:00] this. Sex addict. Right. So so Joshua Grubbs is a researcher at Bowling Green and he has produced several articles about this that the majority of men who identify as sex addicts also have a high degree of religiosity. Oh and so the idea connected is absolutely so well, and it's, and it's connected back even to like to seven year old Jeremiah too, that, that, that, that the problem must be me.I am a sexual monster as opposed to men coming together, talking together, Julia, like what you're saying. And talking about the fucked up positions that that, that the fucked up things that men learned about their bodies, the fucked up things that men learned about women's bodies and how we all want to, how we all want to do better in our own relationships, same sex relationships, opposite sex relationships, sexual relationships, non sexual [00:45:00] relationships.Yeah. And Katherine: maybe it's not a, and I feel like I've, I've approached it. What was brought into that in a little different perspective through the trauma lens of just like addiction itself, typically, or what we call addiction typically developed out of trauma and religiosity itself typically develops out of trauma and and having and having that you know, stuff ingrained into your mind. It's not like, and, and approaching it like a, a, where you like have all of these steps and you have all of these, you know, accountability things that you're supposed to do, but then you you're not addressing the stuff underneath it and the trauma that is, Jeremiah: well, and I think that that's right.And, and I think that. It's one thing to address that trauma in a professional context. I think it's a completely different thing to address that trauma in relationships with other people who've gone through a similar thing. [00:46:00] Yeah. And that's, from my perspective, that's why the relational perspective is so, it's so powerful.Mm hmm. As the capacity to help, for the sake of our conversations, kind of men get out of some of these double binds and the shame that accompanies that double bind. Mm hmm. In, in, in more meaningful, kind of longer lasting ways. Right. Julia: Right. And the language around. Addiction also focuses on behavior versus value.So, so I will always ask clients, what does sex mean, if a person is talking about sex, if a person comes in and says that they are a sexual addict, I will ask what that means. And typically they might say, Well, I masturbate or I watch pornography. And so, so we'll talk, we'll be like, okay, so let's, let's put porn on the side.Let's put masturbation on the side as a behavior. And let's talk about like what [00:47:00] the values are. I had a really interesting client, former client who was a seminarian. And and he Had reached out to me because he thought that I was a Christian sex therapist, and I explained, I said, I am not. I said, I actually am not a part of any religious communities, but I have an understanding of Christian culture so I work with a lot of folks in this area.And I think it spoke to volumes of this client that he said, Okay, I'll work with you. with you because typically working with a secular therapist, that's like scary. And it was so interesting because he had a lot of shame around masturbation and he had a lot of shame around pornography. And we had this conversation and I said, okay.Tell me about what your sexual values are without moralistic language and without behavior language. So he talked about sex being a form of connection, and he talked about sexuality being [00:48:00] sacred, and he talked about a few other values. And I said, that's so interesting. I said, huh, I actually think almost all of the values that you have.I hold two. And, and then it was the conversation around, okay, so if sex, whether it's with yourself or someone else, if it's a form of connection, like, What does that mean? How can you enact that? If sexuality on your own or with someone else is a sacred thing, like what does that mean? And I think a big piece of work for men in Christian communities is getting out of the behavior obsession, which isn't their fault.And thinking about the value moving away from the quality of an erection, moving away from whether or not you masturbate and or watch pornography and moving about, like, what are the values that you have around your bodies about gender, about women, about men, and then like rethinking what sexuality can look like.And Jeremiah: we talk about this, [00:49:00] Julia, in our series on Sex Evangelicals The Sex Education We Wish We Had in which we talk about the sexual health principles or values from the work of Doug Brown Harvey around consent, non exploitation, conversation about contraceptions and STIs, honesty, shared values, and mutual pleasure.I love it. Those are the values that we tend to start from. But also, Julia, your question, being able to ask, what are your values as well? Like that and Katherine: being able to have an opportunity to develop your own values outside of that religious. I want to go back. I want to get into those five things that you just mentioned, but I want to go back and talk about bodies for a minute.We mentioned that women's bodies were made objects and it's like you're walking instead of boobs like it was it was objectification. And that was how a woman's body was viewed and presented to [00:50:00] men. It was also how we we viewed our own race to kind of your own body is of just like cover up cover up cover up and that was literally cover up cover up cover up and then.Here's how you use a tampon on your period. And like, that was literally it. And so for men, what are the messages about their bodies that they receive in these communities? Jeremiah: Men are machines. And, and, and this is both within Christian context and in larger capitalist contexts that men are machines that men are, that all men think about is sex.That sex is the number one most important thing and that that's what being a good man is about. And that men are meant to compete. Yeah. Mm. And, and compete with other men and also compete with women. Yeah. I, I would argue that ultimately misogyny is a A misappropriation of competition between men [00:51:00] and women as opposed to men taking that energy around some of the injustices that they experience and taking it back to like the larger political and social systems that put them into shit situations.Yeah. Julia: It's interesting, Jeremiah, because some of, I don't, I agree with everything that you said. some of what you said isn't necessarily inherent to bodies. Sure. It's about, you know, competition, for example, you use your bodies to compete, but that's more of a concept, I guess. And so I suppose, and I'd be curious.To hear how the two of you experience this similarly or differently, there wasn't a lot said about the bodies of men in my communities. And when I work with couples, especially hetero couples, women have a lot to say about their bodies and what they learned about their bodies. Men have much less to say about their bodies, at least anecdotally.And what they do say about their bodies does tend to [00:52:00] revolve around their penises. And I would say that's more from secular culture than religious culture. Although, as we've discussed, both of those things overlap. Actually I'm going to walk that back. The church doesn't talk about erections explicitly.Implicitly, there's a lot about erections. So if you edit it, you can edit that how you will. But yes, women have a lot. About their bodies that they learn that they can communicate men don't learn as much about their bodies. I Jeremiah: agree. Katherine: Yeah, and it makes me think that like what women learn about their bodies is typically oriented around a man.Or oriented around the reproductive system and having babies, men don't, don't quote unquote need their body for those things. Like they don't, they're conditioned. I don't need my body other than to protect.[00:53:00] Yeah. Yeah. And, and I remember reading this like super toxic book and the fundamentalist world about why like women need to like submit to men because like women have more power to have Babies. And so if men don't have that power, then they're going to turn into an animal. So they need like the woman to like, keep them from turning into the monster.Because the woman has this like special power and like birthing babies, very, very toxic book yet. That's it. That's kind of like it in a nutshell Jeremiah: of and that's what that's that's also a Christian relationship literature in a nutshell. Yeah, I can think of like 13 other metaphors that describe like the very similar process that you were just describing Catherine, Julia: right?Well, in going back to the erection piece, and clearly that's on my mind a lot today. When men learn that all they want is [00:54:00] sex, they, the the When they're told that's all they want. Yes, yes, yes, yes. When they are told all they want is sex. Yes. Which, when often they don't that does have some implicit Implications for for the penis and for needing to be physiologically aroused right away.And so sometimes other men will come in and talk about erectile dysfunction and I'll say, Oh, so you didn't get an erection in 30 seconds of making out or so you had sex with a partner for a longer period of time. And at one point. You lost your erection. Like, where did you learn that that's erectile dysfunction?Mm hmm. Actually, that's like very normative. Right. Functioning as a human being. But I will say that even though men don't learn as much about their bodies inherently, the implications about their bodies to [00:55:00] sexuality are pretty strong. And revolve Jeremiah: around the mythology around the penis. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Katherine: Whoa. So, what, what does a man do when they're no longer, like, The penis is not the only thing about them, like where, where does, where does the conversation go? How did they become like a full whole integrated human being? When their penis is no longer the center of their life. Well, Jeremiah: and that gets back to what I was trying to explain a little bit earlier about.I think the answer to that question is different. If a man is interested in reproducing complementarian gender hierarchical systems. I think men in those systems with with those needs have no idea what to do and have these existential crises, either over longer periods of time or in these like short term outbursts, types of [00:56:00] control behaviors.I think men that want. And strive for a more egalitarian context and opposite sex partnerships may have a little bit of an easier time exploring different ways of you know, providing, providing touch engaging in pleasure that, that don't involve, that don't center around their penises. It can Julia: come with some relief.Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. I'm thinking about some couples that Jeremiah: I've worked with. I've experienced that personally speaking. Julia: Oh, so. Is that okay that I asked him? You're the interviewer. I'm just very curious. No, I am Katherine: too. I was coming. I was coming right behind you. Jeremiah: No, Julia. I think, I think that I think that that's one of the sources of freedom that I've experienced in our relationship too.Like, like I I've shared with you some anxieties that I have around my penis and you've, you've said, Oh, well, that's silly. I don't think that most women don't think that I'm like, Oh, you're right. Oh, the research supports what you're saying. Also, like, I want a more collaborative relationship. I want to be a more collaborative person than, than I was in, in [00:57:00] my marriage.And so, yeah, I think I've been, I think a sense of relief is, is absolutely correct. I've experienced a lot of that regarding regarding sexuality regarding a lot of elements of our relationship. Very Katherine: cool. I'm such a great partner. You guys are Jeremiah: the real MVP of this operation. Katherine: Ah, I love, I love that. Segueing into some of your, your five, your five things.And also because this was probably one of the first episodes I listened to from, From you all. And I learned a lot about it. The message of consent, which I never learned until like very, very recently within the past few years and, and have friends. Who were married very young, and are now, you know, divorced and exploring things outside of it and I am having to teach them about consent, because it [00:58:00] was never a part of their upbringing, either and like, No, actually what that man just did to you was, was not consent and like sending them the YouTube video about the tea and tea and consent, tea and consent and like, you are allowed to say, No, and they should be looking for an enthusiastic.Yes. And, and how does that, I know how that like shows up for women and what, and the impact that that has on women, what is the impact that that has on men in sexuality? Well, Jeremiah: first of all, consent is a relational process. Consent is a dialogue. And part of. The narratives of masculinity is that men by being the gender and opposite sex couples by being the gender that has a higher quote sex drive should also be the initiators and that [00:59:00] initiation is so if, if initiation is expected by men If initiation is accepted to be done by men, if there's an assumption that men have higher sex drives, that women don't have high sex drives like this is setting up a recipe for some really harmful sexual experiences both in terms of, of.emotional damage that can happen through a lack of communication, lack of overt consent, and also through significant emotional, physical, psychological damage from men who overtly exploit that to abuse women. So I would, I, I, I would start there that I talked on the podcast about what happened when I in my sex therapy training, the first class that we took was around the, the six sexual health principles that I mentioned and, and, and about consent and my response leaving that was, oh, fuck, I [01:00:00] am 33 years old.I have never had this conversation and I have been. engaged in a 14 year sexual relationship that has not been particularly dialogical. Yeah. And there's reasons for that that we can talk about maybe in another context, but, but, but part of that is rooted in these expectations that both my partner and I had that, or my ex and I had that, I am the one that has a higher sex drive that it should be initiating sex.And, and, and my partner as, as a woman should be the recipient and, and, and even be even be asexual. And so according to that, I have conversations which is super, super damaging. And so I had, I came back. From a class. I talked with my ex about this. Hey, we need to talk. I am so sorry that we have been having these experiences.I want to do this differently. I'd love to figure out a way to talk to you [01:01:00] about this and my ex, who is also like steeped up in, in much more of a similar experience religious experience to Julia growing up, growing up in the Baptist church than, than I was. Her response was, Oh, it's no big deal.Thank you. Which threw me for a loop and looking back on this now, like recognizing how entrenched she still was. Yeah. In these expectations about what men do and what women do. Katherine: And it was just normal, so normal for her. She had no concept or idea of anything else. That's right. Julia: Yeah. That's bad. Well and I'm not saying bad in a that is not bad in a blaming way towards anyone.That is a bad system for all of us to have learned from, you know, this is super sad. So I've had [01:02:00] experiences in which like men have abused me sexually in an exploitive way. And that is a really awful experience. And then I've had experiences, perhaps more similar to what you're describing, Jeremiah. In which the abuse of, or the the non consensual experience is not necessarily abusive.Non consent can absolutely be abusive and I've experienced that. Or non consent can exist when a couple doesn't have relational tools to navigate consent. So I had a diagnosis of vaginismus and vulvodynia, which means essentially painful intercourse and the constriction of the vaginal muscles. Deeply connected to...Evangelicalism so I'm hesitant to use that diagnostic language, but that was what I experienced, which means that sex was often painful. And when I got married my husband and I would sometimes have these sexual experiences that were very, very physically painful. And my ex husband, who is a good human being, saw that I [01:03:00] was in pain, and he had this terrible choice in which he could stop the sexual experience because he didn't want to see his partner in pain or be any part of inflicting that.However, if he chose to stop the sexual experience, that would also communicate to me as the woman in this. situation that I was not desirable. And so sometimes he would initiate stopping the sexual experience. And I would sometimes say, no, no, no, keep going. Because for me, that was my only way of proving my worth as a human being.And so I could also have the opportunity to say, yes, let's stop this experience and save myself from the pain. Or I could power through the pain. And so both of us were stuck in these really terrible dynamics, which the experience was not consensual, right? Right. Not consensual because I was clearly in a huge amount of physical distress and emotional distress.[01:04:00] However, From my perspective, that wasn't an abusive, non consensual experience, and I think the assumption that non consent is always abusive keeps us from having these dialogues because there is so much shame associated with it. Katherine: That's right. Right, right. And I think that was something that I learned from y'all's episode about just because it's non consensual doesn't equal marital rape.And I think that that is a new, a new a new phrase. Phrase. Simple. Right. That we're, we're more acquainted with. And, and I, and I love, thank you so much for sharing your example, Julia, because It was like you both were consenting to play roles. So there was consent. You didn't necessarily, you didn't know there was anything different, you know, like, yeah, it wasn't that he, you were saying, no, I don't want this.And then he was forcing [01:05:00] still, that's a very different dynamic. We both have these roles to play. And we're both just playing Julia: and we're performing our genders and we didn't know that we could consent out of it. And sadly, I've had the experiences that you're describing in which a sexual experience was forced due to an abuse of power.And, and that's a different, that's a different kind of experience. Both are painful, both are harmful. But I think we have to have more nuanced dialogue around consent. Katherine: Absolutely. Yeah. And then, and then just, Oof. And then like your story, Jeremiah, of like recognizing that this had never happened, like, and it wasn't in an effort to, to dominate, it was in an effort to play the role that you were told.Jeremiah: Right. Right. Yeah. Right. And, and, and just to kind of build on [01:06:00] that, that yeah, like our earliest sexual experiences with my ex, yeah. Were they almost all ended with panic attacks. With my ex wife having a panic attack, and, did you Katherine: correlate it with what had just happened? Or did you think it was completely separate?I had Jeremiah: no idea what was going on. I didn't have the language for it. I just knew that there was a sexual experience for something I wanted, something I thought she wanted. And the panic attacks, obviously like shut down the experience. It, it it heightened my own desire to move into like protective spaces.And, and so I learned that initiating conversations about sex that had the capacity to bring that that, that, that kind of pain. So, so not just on a, on a, on a physical level, Julia, what you're talking about, but on a dialogical level. Sure, sure. Both. Yeah. Yeah. So. Katherine: If this is too much information, you're, I will cut it from the episode, but were, [01:07:00] was, were your first sexual experiences in marriage?Jeremiah: Depends on what you mean by sexual experience. Let's, Katherine: let's, let's play the, the Jeremiah: marital relationship was my first experience with intercourse. Got Julia: it. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. And Yeah. I think the question is relevant in the sense that that meant a following of purity culture rules because the church defines sexuality by vaginally penetrative intercourse.I think that language is so harmful because it I think that eliminates any other kinds of sexual experiences that are, that are just as, as valid and Jeremiah: just as enjoyable. Katherine: Yeah. And, and building that connection and intimacy as you were, you were talking about earlier as [01:08:00] a way of just wrapping up the episode, we've talked a little bit about this and you have shared some really great insights into the healing processes.That you have both been through and then also clients but what are some just like stepping stones and, and, and starting places for like men listening to this episode of just like how to integrate and be that whole human. And then for women who might be in that hetero cisgender relationship on on what they can like how to just kind of navigate.Potentially very brand new things that they may have learned in this episode. We can start with the men. Jeremiah: I'm also thinking about stepping stones. I think first things first, we have to start thinking about sex in ways that go beyond vaginal intercourse. That sex is the way that the ways that two bodies interact with each other in a way that creates [01:09:00] some sort of, some sort of physical pleasure.And thinking then about, well, what are the diversity of ways in, in, in, in which that happens for me what are the types of what are the types of touch that I like? Well, what are ways that I can have pleasure that, that, that don't involve touch and, and that can, that can either for myself and, and that are also relational so I think that.Thinking about stepping stones, I think that that's an important stepping stone to acknowledge that sex is not a reduction to our penises that sex involves the totality of our bodies. Yeah. Julia: I would say that learning to talk about... Sex is probably one of the stepping stones, and that's really difficult if you've never had any models for talking about sexuality. In our episode with you when we interviewed you for our podcast, you mentioned the [01:10:00] challenge of Well, how do you find a voice after leaving a religious community when you never developed one, right?And so I recognize that even, I suppose, this stepping stone is a complicated one because that would require a person or a couple or a group to step up. to create a new roadmap or to start a new pathway down this sledding hill. Maybe having some questions could be helpful. So asking a partner or a friend or someone you trust who you believe could have this dialogue with you in a meaningful way to say, you know, what did you learn about your gender growing up.What did it mean to be a man in your church? That might be a helpful first step, because it can also test out the water a little bit. Talking about what you learned is potentially vulnerable, but you're still [01:11:00] talking about something outside of yourself to a degree. And so being able to talk with someone about what that meant and what about that might've been difficult you know, to go there if, if, if the first part of that conversation goes well.Yeah. Katherine: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just getting, just getting comfortable with like just understanding the messages. Yeah. You received. Yes. It's hard though. It's hard work. Listen to sexvangelicals. Julia: That's right. You can listen to our podcast. Jeremiah: Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts, Katherine: wherever you get your podcasts. Well, this has been very informative and also feels like the beginning of a conversation and there's just so much more to explore.Just, yeah, through this lens, but I really appreciate you providing that extra perspective[01:12:00] just because. In the purity culture conversation, it tends to center around the woman's experience. And, and it, and as we know, patriarchy doesn't just impact women, it impacts everyone. Julia: Right, right. And I think that one of the messages about purity culture is that women are the gatekeepers to sexuality.And that's something that's damaging to women, but it damages men because it erases their ability to describe Their experiences in, in their own ways , Katherine: And, and almost eliminates their agency Julia: within it. Absolutely. Absolutely. Of course. Katherine: Yeah. Well, this has been great. As we, as we wrap up , share where folks can interact with you.And then are you, are you all taking. Taking clients or do we have a full docket at the moment? Julia: They can reach out Jeremiah: to us and reach out to us. Yeah. So for more information about working with us, we're in, in the early stages of getting some coaching processes together.[01:13:00] Sex evangelicals at gmail.com. We're also on Instagram and threads at sex evangelicals. And then we also have a subsect that goes out two or three times a week called relationship 101, which you can find at sex evangelicals. subsect. com. That's super Katherine: easy and super simple. I love it. Appreciate y'all.

Rachel Bernstein LMFT, MSEd discusses what it's like working with survivors from high-control groups. This episode is for survivors looking for a mental health professional or for mental health professionals looking to work with the demographic of survivors of cults, high-control groups, and spiritual abuse. University of SalfordTranscript (Transcript is unedited for typos and misspellings)Katherine: Hello. How are you doing today?Rachel: I am doing really good. How are you doing today? Katherine: I am good. I am a little tired. I went to a midnight book release. On Monday nights, and I don't ever stay up that late, and I'm still sleeping.That was a new thing for me. I was like, this is what teenagers do. These are not what people who are almost 40 do. But it was fun. It was a fun experience. I'm glad. Very excited to talk to you today. I know you have indoctrination podcast, and you do a lot of different work with a lot of different clients, but the particular demographic that I would [00:01:00] love to talk to you about is the demographic of folks who've And cults or high control experiences.And I would love to hear from you, what prompted you to work with this demographic and what was the story that led you to working with this type Rachel: of client? Nice. Okay. So there's so much to this story. I'll try not to make it overly long, but Okay, great. No, go for it. Tell, tell, tell whatever. It's slightly long, longer than it needs to be, not overly.Right. Huh. Right. So, When I was growing up, my, one of my siblings who was eight years older got. Kind of a new friend through a friend, and they started hanging out a lot. Next thing we know, she's not really spending time at home. She has taken the money out of her [00:02:00] account and it's gone.Which she had really worked hard for. In my family, we were supposed to work from when we were young. If we needed cash for anything, even to go to the movies, well, you need to earn it. You know, it was like that. So it, you know, we didn't take spending lots of money all at once lightly. Cause we know how much we had worked to make it and suddenly liquidated gone.And she was speaking differently. She was acting in a very kind of in your face way. And we're like, what is going on? So then she said that she has this friend of a friend who's introduced her to this place. It's called Scientology. Got it. And and it's a church, but we're a Jewish family, but it's not a church church.That would, that became a line in our family forever. It's not a church church. Like what? I'm sorry. It's not a church church, but it's not. So. Because there really wasn't the idea of a word cult that was known at the time, and this was in the 70s. So there [00:03:00] was no one to call. There were no resources that, you know, the books out there at the time before the interwebs, the, the books were written by cult leaders.Like there were L. Ron Hubbard novels out there about Dianetics and his science fiction books, but nothing about what is Scientology and that it is a cult. And the, the cult books that were out there too, were more about like working with POWs who had been indoctrinated and watching the Manchurian candidate and are like, yeah, fit, but not.So the turning point was. And I learned a lot about this. My, my parents responded different ways to stressful events. My mom was more of a kind of in your face, you have to stop this right now, finger pointing. I mean, that, that does sometimes come in handy, right? And my father instead was the, let me link arms with this person, see what they like about it, see what's interesting to them.But also I want to ask my questions about what I'm concerned about. So, They had tension and [00:04:00] she had tension with my parents and she said this group is going to teach me how to get along better with, with all of you. And And my friend said she's gotten along better with her parents since she's gotten involved.And so my father, in a very nice way, said could we call her parents and find out? Like, if this really has helped, then I'll say, okay. And she got the number of this person and their parents and the parents said, in this kind of panic tone, where did you see our daughter? Whoa. Right? That was a whoa.And my dad goes, what do you mean? We haven't, we don't know where she is. She left home six months ago and she said for the last six months she's been getting along better with her parents. She hasn't seen them. So this is the way the group defined getting along better, right? No contact. Katherine: No contact. Rachel: Cut them off.Oh my. That actually startled my sister. She didn't know. She didn't know [00:05:00] that's what that meant. I'm sorry. And she tried to get her money back. That was impossible, but. That you could see the personality change right away, and you could see that being in your face and she was having problems with her friends at school for the first time, too, because she was learning other ways of communicating the Scientology way of communicating, which is very in your face.So that became dinner table conversation. How can this happen that people can just take over someone's mind and convince them that something is true. That's really not true. That's totally the opposite of what is true. And then. Because I then was raised hearing about this and that there are many groups that do their recruiting also on college campuses, and they use front names, I then went to college, and I saw it.I saw these groups with their front names that I had learned, and they're at the student union, you know, passing out their pamphlets having people join, taking them on weekends, the bus picked up in front of my dorm, and I remember, because I was now cult educated, [00:06:00] I said to these people, Where are you going?And they said, Oh, we're going on a church weekend. What church is it? We don't know. Really? You don't know. And where are you going? Well, we're going to the mountains. I go, you know, that's not a place like mountains are these geographical structures and geological entities. That's not a place. Do you know where you're going?Is there going to be a phone there? Like, how are you going to leave? And they just thought I was being a drag. And I remember the leaders coming on the bus and asking me who I was and why I was harassing the people who were going. But I thought some of them are going to be dropping out of school after this and needing to show their devotion to this group and not school because that's what would happen.Suddenly these people were gone. Yeah. And then. So there are just two more parts of this story, and it really is, this is a shorter version. When I then went on to grad school to become, to, to become a therapist, to learn [00:07:00] counseling, there was a, a group therapy course where you learn to do group therapy that turned out to be run like a cult.The leader of it, who was the teacher, used, utilized almost every technique of influence and manipulation. And that was just her personality and I did a social experiment in that class, which was interesting because I noticed. This was the year before my dad passed away the year before I broke up with my boyfriend the year before my favorite dog passed away like I was just on the cusp of going through lots of trauma.Yeah, but until then life had been okay, but we were supposed to share our traumas. And if we didn't have trauma to share like if we hadn't gone through abuse or something, we were withholding, we were being resistant to the process. And then I could see people folding like I could see them making stories up just to be liked.And then they would be hugged by the people in the group. Thank you for [00:08:00] trusting us with your trauma and with your, with your past. So people were just crafting stories to please the teacher. I thought, wow, this is happening in a therapy class. I remember talking to my Dean about that. He was actually a little alarmed and I did one of my, I did my dissertation on what happened in that class for that school.That was controversial. But then I, I thought, you know, I want to do this work because there were so few resources for people and. I, yes, I want to do general counseling. I still do some general counseling, but about 80 percent of the counts counseling I do is former cult stuff. And then I start that they were looking for a clinician at a place called the cult clinic in Los Angeles, which was effectively shut down by Scientology.But that was my first taste of harassment, Scientology harassment, which did scare me. I mean, they had. discredited LAPD officers that they hired to harass people to follow people. They were scary, [00:09:00] scary mofos, if I can say. Leaning on my car when I'd come out of the office following me home sending people into poses clients.And I get this note saying, just to let you know, we're watching and listening and thought, what the hell is this? And so I remember staying home for about a week, my father had passed about a year before this, and suddenly I heard his words, which were, you can't let the bullies win. That was his way of looking at the world like you cannot let the bullies win.And I thought, Okay, but I need a week. I just have a week. I'm like talking to him wherever he is. He's already passed. And I had to get myself together and See what my rights were. Yes, we're not. Take a little break, right? Yes, we're not letting them win, but I do need a break. I need a break, because they're outside my house, and I need to know if I'll be protected.I need to contact the police. And then I went back to work, and I thought, what I'm dealing with in terms of harassment is only slightly what former Scientologists deal [00:10:00] with. And other people from other groups. They're pretty intense. Yeah. Scientologists are very intense. Really intense. Katherine: Stopping them is intense, right?Mm hmm. Rachel: Yeah, yeah. They've complained to my board many times to try to have my license taken away. They, they're no nonsense, but it's what happens to me and to a couple of my, you know, colleagues. And, and I think to me, especially because where I started doing my work, my counseling was very close to the Scientology buildings in Hollywood.So I started working with a lot of Scientologists and have continued working with them. So they don't like me, but okay. So that's, that's sort of how I got started in this. So yeah. And then how many years would you say Katherine: that this has been like the folks? Is it kind of been from the Rachel: beginning? Yeah, it's been since I've been doing counseling.It's been 32 years and it's morphed over time in that before it really was. It was, I thought this was fascinating. [00:11:00] This was a human rights issue to me, especially the way in a lot of these groups that women were treated and children were treated or mistreated, neglected and, and then over time it morphed to include now people who have been in relationships with narcissists because I would do a talk on cults or something and someone would call me and say, that sounds like my husband.Oh, what do you mean? And I kind of learned from people responding to my words about cult saying, no, that was my family that or that was my relationship. So I realized to now with. You know, with political landscape and so many people having polarized views of things and group think that I think is very scary.That's happening right now in the world to that I care about this on a micro level and also macro that. As the descendant of Holocaust survivors, I'm, I care a lot about group think and how people can be, kind of, how you get to Katherine: that place. It Rachel: doesn't Right. Caught up into a ffr, the [00:12:00] torch and pitchfork way of Right.And then also still on the micro person by person listening to what they've been through and trying to help them individually. Katherine: Mm-Hmm. Two, two observations. First of all. I noticed that when you were talking to those people who were getting on this bus to go to the quote unquote mountains, and that your father's approach to your sister, a lot of questions, there was like a lot of asking questions and I sure I'm sure we'll get into that.In just a minute, but I, I noticed that and then also I do appreciate that you address the fact that like a narcissistic relationship can have that similarity because I feel like I know like in the world that I work in, we have a much better, a broader. view of like what a cult can be, what a high control relationship can be, and what a high control religion can be.But most folks [00:13:00] still think of a cult as like something happening in a bunker somewhere, or out in the desert, and Expanding what that can be and what that high control relationship can be. And there are so many people who experienced that, but then have that very, just invalidating experience of like, nobody knows what this is like.It feels like a cult, but I can't call it a cult because it doesn't look like this. And, and so I appreciate that. You made that connection between that narcissist and that cold, cold experience. The impact can be very, very similar. Rachel: The impact is very similar.I think because not every cult is run by a narcissist. Some really are. You know, they have their delusional disorder and they get people into this diagnosis that is called fully I do, which is shared psychosis. Like they invite people who are maybe vulnerable to that way of thinking into their psychosis, but by [00:14:00] and large, I'd say a good 90 percent of cult leaders have a narcissistic bent.And so then. Whether it's your partner, your parent, even your child, there's some people who contact me because their children are narcissistic and run their life. Because that it's the same disorder that's prompting it, you're going to have similar techniques. Like they've read the same manual. It's kind of amazing.And, and then when you have similar techniques of, of manipulation, gaslighting, all of it, you're going to have similar outcomes. So it could be a one on one situation or it could be hundreds of thousands of people. Katherine: Yeah, and that can be helpful for someone who is recovering from that type of relationship, like even looking for someone who has the high control experience when they are looking for a mental health professional.Right. That would be maybe not necessarily just a narcissistic relationship, but someone who has that experience might be able to relate with that a little more. One of the things that's unique about your story is you didn't get into [00:15:00] this demographic because you had a personal experience being in a cult.So I think that's really unique. I feel like everyone that I know who gets into this demographic also had an experience. In it makes your story very unique to me, but then also, what are some things that you have learned over the years from your clients about what they need for Rachel: recovery? Right. It's a great question.So yes. And it, it is unique that I haven't. Been in one myself, and I think that's why I work almost equally with the families and friends of people who are in situations like this or in relational situations like this and have a webinar for them too, because I was. One of those, like being on the outside, needing to figure out how to have these conversations, how to manage the anxiety that comes up when you see your loved one getting slowly stolen away from you.And you don't [00:16:00] know what this forces that's on them and how to. See if you can get them back and if it's even possible and learning about the ways to communicate that are in a kind of counterintuitive way that are specific for this has been something I noticed from my own family, but also now for further doing this work and learning about that.So, right. I mean, what. People need. It's interesting when you talk about doing this kind of counseling for the people specifically who were in situations like this, whether it is a cult or a relationship that took over their life, multi level marketing, abusive teen treatment place, whatever it was, or is, or having been with a therapist who was dangerous, which I talk about a lot.I, well, it's unconscionable to me. To use that power in that way makes me mad. And so there are, [00:17:00] there are some things that. Are really important. I think for specifically when people are coming out of this, they need to know that they're believed because so often they're made to feel that they're exaggerating the story or they didn't get it right.That's part of the gaslighting that they can't trust the evidence of their senses and how they are deciphering what happened. And they also will often underplay it. And really downgrade how much they've been traumatized because it wasn't supposed to be seen that way in the group like you're supposed to just deal with being abused, or you're, it's for your benefit.You're supposed to be appreciative of being treated that way, being selected for something that turned out to be abusive. So. Abuse, neglect get underreported a lot of the time by people who leave. And what helps is defining for them what they've been through. Like, Oh, [00:18:00] that actually is abuse. That's why you're having nightmares.That's why you break into a cold sweat when you hear someone who has similar voice to the person who did that to you. I want you to understand yourself and your reactions, and you'll only understand it if you know what happened to you. And also that it wasn't your fault. That you didn't bring it in, that it wasn't because of you.Because, you know, within a cultic system, as you know, anything that's good that happens to you is because of the leadership. Anything that's bad is because of you. Katherine: And because you didn't Rachel: follow the leadership. Right, because you didn't follow the leadership. You, or you weren't feeling it in your heart or whatever, whatever it is, it's always back on you.So to be able to have a clear sense of who the culprit is, and you can take it off of you is also a really important thing. It's also good for people to understand that they have strengths, that they have capabilities. That they can live in the world and be successful at it, even [00:19:00] though they have been told that they don't have these strengths and these capabilities and to have them understand why they were convinced of that and how that fed the.Need of the leader to have you be dependent on them and to never want to leave because you don't feel equipped to be in the world. I think helping people understand why they were taught what they were taught and how it wasn't for them. It was right. It was for the control that the leader or the group needed to have over them.That's really helpful just to understand the source and the reasoning for the things they were taught as truths about them. And I think it's really helpful to connect people with other people. That's why I run a support group. So people don't feel isolated and alone. And I will often talk to people about how they They are having trouble relaxing and resting because when you're in a cult, you're going, going, going, you're doing, doing, doing, you learn that you matter the [00:20:00] least and you don't have to sleep.And it's fine if you're not eating and you're, you're supposed to somehow be devoted to the cause. And I try to shift that in my counseling work. So people know they are also the cause that it's important for them to take care of them. And that that's not selfish and it's not being lazy and it's not having pride.It's not all the other things that it's called when you care about you. And that you have to be a good steward of the self in order to then do work that you might want to do that's in service of others, but it needs to happen in that order. And there's nothing wrong with you for doing it in that order.And I also, I guess I want people to know that the world outside is actually not going to be as scary and not going to be as critical and not going to be as gossipy, like they'll have more privacy. There, there aren't people who are going to give them a hard time about everything. I have Clients who [00:21:00] panic if they're running even 30 seconds late for a session, or they come on to a zoom call a little bit late, or they come to the group a little bit late.I'll sometimes see them in the waiting area on zoom and then they're gone. They're missing. And I realized they're panicking because they're sure. That I'm going to give them a hard time and I'm going to berate them for not showing their allegiance to this group and not showing that it matters enough for them to be there on time, all the things that they went through in their cultic group.And they're also They've expressed to me they're worried about not showing up for the group because when they didn't go to things, that's when they were talked about in their absence and waited and given a hard time. So they were afraid of walking back into what suddenly felt like an unsafe. Situation.So I let people know we do not talk about you. And if someone does want to talk about you while you're not here, if it's something positive, like, oh, it's so [00:22:00] nice to meet that woman last time. And I hope she comes back. That's fine. And I'll be happy to tell you about that. But, you know, someone who just wants to.Berate. Not allowed, not allowed. So it always needs to feel safe. You just, if they're doing this work and learning from people and what makes them so anxious and you just see how much they've been mistreated and how much they've been under a microscope that has been so unfair to them and has made them so tense and so worried needlessly.Katherine: Absolutely. So I heard you say. Believe them. Let them know that you believe their story. I heard you say, give them like language to name what happened and then validate even that it was like a big deal, like naming it as abuse or naming it as as gaslighting. I heard you say, help them access.Like the internal [00:23:00] resources that they have and access their own, you didn't say the word power, but their own, their own resources, their own internal resources reframe things. So learning that like outside world is not scary and, and just having that, like a lot of like compassion for. The trauma that results in anxiety or fear or mistrust or anything like that.All like super, super, super important things. And I just think about like your support groups and like the courage that it takes for someone to show up to something like that when they have, a lot of times it is a group. Right. That happened in the first place. And that can be very scary, yet such a huge part of the recovery process to be able to engage with a group again.And yeah. Oh yeah. Again, Rachel: very, very important. Yeah. There are people also who. [00:24:00] Have been in support groups that have really, really been unhealthy. And also ones where they dealt with being in a treatment center that were kind of patterned. Well, they took off from Synanon, which started this this horrible practice.It was a cult in California started a whole horrible practice of something called the game where. You are supposed to berate people in a group. You're supposed to shout at them, call them things. They would sometimes need to grovel, like walk around on, on their hands and knees to show that they were they knew they were less than or they needed to wear a sign around them, around their neck that would say something.It could say whore, could say anything and whatever they may have been labeled that day. I mean, it was, so it was attack. Therapy. I don't even want to call it therapy. And so people coming out of that have interesting reactions when I do counseling with them. [00:25:00] And, and what is one of the reactions that's kind of sad is that some of them think that I don't care about them because I'm not shouting at them.Translation. I get that Katherine: though. I, I totally get that. Yeah. Rachel: Yeah. Right. That was the justification for someone being cruel. Like, no, this is for your benefit. And so I remember one person saying, I don't know if this is going to work because you've never raised your voice, but it's like someone raised by an abusive parent, you know, like this is how I show you that I care.It's, oh, it's such a perversion of how it should be. Katherine: No, absolutely. No. And I, I mean that I'm remembering how like I migrated to someone who was like a known abusive pastor in the evangelical world is Mark Driscoll. And I remember migrating to him as a leader because he yelled from the pulpit and because he was so angry from the pulpit.And I had without realizing it been conditioned to see [00:26:00] that a strong, trustworthy leadership in it. I was like very just Very disorienting when I realized that that happens and that I like read into that anger as good leadership. It totally, totally, really. Rachel: Okay. Yeah, it's really terrible. And people get that they, they then wind up sometimes in relationships with people who are really mistreating them because.That was translated as love. That's another thing to define. Like, what is love? And what can that look like in a relationship? And what are rights? I mean, I remember one time, I, I was flown to Texas to help with the, the raid, which had already taken place on the FLDS compound. And I, I don't like raids, even though I've worked with a lot of people who did feel traumatized by [00:27:00] them, but also relieved knowing that there were people out there who cared about what was happening behind closed doors.Like it's very mixed thing. So I wasn't involved in all planning it, but they asked me to come in to, to help to train the social workers who were working with the people who had been taken off the camp compound even temporarily. And they were talking to these women or young, well, they're really still girls who are these sister wives about rights, that they had rights.And they were looking blankly and and they said, they, they don't seem to believe us that they have rights. I said, They don't know what rights are. We have to go back. We have to teach them that there are these things that are called rights. That, that there is things called boundaries, that you have the right to say no or to control your body.But that's not true in their group. So they're not gonna believe you that they have these rights. They probably don't even know that there's this thing called a constitution. Mm-Hmm. . [00:28:00] That says that they have rights that are legally protected. And they don't even Katherine: have a Rachel: concept for it. Right. And that if they were to impose those rights, they would be abused or they would be kicked out.And so it's not safe for them to have them. So we can't jump in assuming that they've had the same life and same education and same exposure. Like we have to educate them about the fact that these things exist. And that maybe that will help them leave at some point, knowing that these things exist, but only outside the compound.Katherine: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I know that. You and I probably come from the same position of just because someone has a credential doesn't make them someone as as you as you discovered with these social workers doesn't make them equipped to work with this demographic. But if someone were to be interested in working with this demographic and wanted to.Equip themselves and get the resources to be able to work with this demographic. [00:29:00] What would you point them to and what would you direct them to? And what are some recommendations for things that they could pursue to become equipped? Rachel: Okay. I think it's a great thing. And yes, just because someone has, has initials after their name doesn't make them healthy people.And I have seen that and I've seen it for people who have dealt with abuse at the hands of psychiatrists who have an MD and You know have these very advanced degrees, but they have a disorder that makes them totally misbehave. So, and, and there are people who don't have credentials who I think have been great.So it's still buyer beware, unfortunately, even it's, it's important just to be a smart spiritual consumer and a smart therapeutic. consumer. I think what people also need to know is that now there are a lot of people who are running what they're calling support groups, and they're not necessarily credentialed people.And some run a lovely group, but they're not quite sure what to [00:30:00] do when there is an issue. And they'll sometimes call me like this happened and then someone felt ganged up on and we started talking about someone. Thinking it would be helpful, but then they felt traumatized and like, it can go down kind of a rabbit hole if there isn't someone who's had training in how to run a support group.So you want to go to someone who's had training and also there are people who have left cults who will sometimes run them as cults. That's how they manage, right? That's what they know. Yeah. And then there's a group of favorites and that, you know, and they feel, they know it and other ones are feeling ostracized.It's very culty and they're feeling judged. So see how you feel. Know that if you get involved in a group, that's not your only option. You can go shopping around, don't owe them anything. You don't have to keep coming back if it doesn't feel safe. There is, this needs to be part of. The curriculum for social work schools.Katherine: Oh, my gosh. Yes, right. It does because it's [00:31:00] so common. Rachel: It's it's so common. I'm sure you've had the experience. And if you talk about this issue, invariably, when I'm out somewhere and someone asked me what I do, there's at least one other person who's going to say, Oh, yeah. I was in something or my family member was like, it happens so frequently now that I think it should be curriculum and for people who are learning to to become therapists of any sort.It's just really not, and it's still not seen as something really as important as it should be. I've, I've taught a class at. USC about how to run support groups for people who have been abused in groups. But it's just, they'll invite you with just that Katherine: extra awareness of like, they're coming into this and they're instantly going to feel anxious because and just that extra layer of awareness that someone who has never had that experience would have no idea that someone would come in to that Rachel: environment.No, right. It's it is. It's a niche. And and I'm [00:32:00] just I'm asked when I'm asked, but most of the time not because they have other things that they think are more important to teach them and maybe they are. But still, this happens. And so the there is a program out of England run by Colleagues of mine who are lovely and wonderful have had a lot of experience.It's through the University of Salford and I think you can take courses online. It's a master's in coerce coercion and coercive control. And It teaches you about what that is. I don't know to what degree it teaches you to do the counseling piece, but it is a master's in it. So you have a good framework for understanding it.And it's new few years old, and I there need to be more programs like it. But I think If people want to go to conferences, or if they want to attend like the International Cultic Studies Association conference online, where there is a section that is [00:33:00] for professionals, how you do this work, I do some lectures on it, how you also do interventions how they're different than regular interventions and, Yeah, just understanding the nuanced differences in this work is important and to understand why those things are important.So I think attending conferences, if you want to learn reading some books, I'm in the process of writing one that is going to be about my counseling work. So hopefully that will be out soon. I hope. And, and. It will be a little bit more of like a how to this is what happened to this person. And this is how I thought to help them.And because that's missing out there. So, yeah, so I think this program in England and also attending workshops at This at the International Cultic Studies Association Conference, which is yearly, is a good place to start. And and then reading books, you know, from people who are professionals who are talking about how they do this [00:34:00] work.I, because again, there were so few resources I really have learned most of what I've learned. From my clients really taking notes, like, okay, that worked better than this. And why understanding it. And, you know, we've been a learner of the Katherine: people that you're working with. And that sounds like that's part of your story is you learned from the actual people that you were working with.And, and that can be, I think, really empowering to, I think, for someone on the client side of. This person maybe doesn't understand, but they are, they want to understand and Rachel: they want it. I mean, now I can come in feeling that I have an expertise, which is great, but I also come in with enough humility to know I don't know everything, which is a really important thing for someone who's been involved in the cult to see that someone coming in, who seems to have this position of authority is saying.I'm open to you teaching me. Katherine: [00:35:00] Absolutely. Absolutely. Rachel: And I'm open to being wrong. I'm not an actor on you. Right. Exactly. I can know about cults, but I don't know you. And I don't know what's going to work for you. Some of this is going to be trial and error. I'm not going to punish you or, you know, I'm not going to stop treating you because something I provided for you turned out to not be the best thing for you.And you let me know that I'll be happy that you let me know that so we can fine tune it for you. But yeah, that dialogue does not happen. Katherine: In the cold, like, yeah, like you have something to offer here that I don't have and like having that kind of relationship when you don't know and when it isn't your expertise, but it is something that you're interested in for something for someone who is.And I, I mean, I encounter this so often just with like [00:36:00] my clients and it typically comes up even just in their first initial consultation of trying therapy and admitted and immediately realizing it's not helping and it's not the person doesn't get them and doesn't understand and then. to have to go through the process of finding someone, you know, when you're, when you're traumatized and when you're exhausted and we're just trying to figure things out, what are some guidelines that you can give to someone who is looking for a mental health professional to help them that they can maybe look for just immediately when they.Look on someone's website and questions that they can ask during the consultation to kind of help them narrow down someone who might be able to Rachel: help. Right. So first, you know, I think you and I are going to be equally reactive to going onto people's websites who seemed who, [00:37:00] who are trying to come across.Like they have the answer. They are the one. And they need to be talking all about their credentials and how they can provide something that no one else can. That is a huge red flag because they're never also typically going to be able to admit that they were wrong because they know it all. So if it feels collaborative, collaborative.Like we will work together to help you get to where you want to go that kind of language. Like, I'm going to hold your hand while we kind of muddle through this together. I can offer what I know, but this is something that, you know, I'm not going to be coming in and I'm going to be the expert and you have to listen to everything I say.And so, yes, if it has that kind of we're working together language. And that I'm open to hearing, and I want to understand you so that I can help you. That is, it's nice that you get to be, as the former member or the person who's been through this, you get to be the expert in [00:38:00] that space too, because you know your story.And you know what you feel, you intuit that you need, and you want a therapist to be open to that. It's also important for people to notice when they first start going to a therapist, if they get the sense that they have to make a commitment for a certain amount of time. That is something I think people should not necessarily agree to cause then you're locked in and then if you decide that it really isn't working for you, you might feel like you have to keep coming back because you're of that mindset of you made a commitment and you have to stick with your commitments, but it only matters if it's helping you.And so you want it to be open ended. you want to be careful to, to not work with a therapist who keeps changing the subject. Like if you really want to talk about your cult experience or the manipulation that you went through or something that's specific to your experience and the therapist just isn't trained [00:39:00] in that.And instead of saying, you know what, you have a book that would be good, or maybe I'll do some research or cause I have. Katherine: Right. Rachel: And I've had therapists contact me and say, listen, I'm not telling you, I want you to meet with my client. We have a good relationship, but I don't know about this. Can you guide me on this?And can you give me some resources? I really value that. I think that's really wonderful. So if the therapist is open to learning so that they don't keep just kind of ignoring when you bring it up, cause it's not their expertise and saying, well, now let's just talk about your mother. Or whatever, like the usual suspect.No. And you want a therapist who honors your boundaries. And if you have a therapist who asks you questions and you don't know if you want to share so much information about yourself, even though in the cult you've been trained to share everything with anyone at all times, because you have to If a therapist says, actually, that's, I'm, I'm kind of glad that you're saying [00:40:00] no, because you don't really know me yet and you don't feel comfortable talking and you don't know how I'm going to respond to your information.That's good, then that's safe. And so what can I do, I'll ask my clients is what can I do to provide a feeling of safety here for you to let you know that I'm going to handle what you tell me. In a healthy way and something that would feel safe for you. There are therapists and I've told people this. If you have a therapist who tells you, who uses either of these two words, which are like nails going down a chalkboard for me, resistance and withholding.Katherine: If they tell you that Rachel: you are resisting or you're being resistant to this process or you're withholding information from them. Right. Just because you're saying, yeah, I don't know if I feel like force. Yes. Yes. Katherine: And it also indicates that they're almost taking offense. that the client doesn't trust them.And someone who is aware of this experience will know it is going [00:41:00] to take a lot for this client to trust me. So I'm not going to force them and I'm not going to push them. I'm going to let them lead. And how much they want to share and even just say that, Ooh, I felt my internal haunches. Yes. Wow. Rachel: Right. And you, and that somehow the client also was told they need to make a commitment to this work. That this work is the thing that's going to change them. But that is just filled with too much ego and too much stress. And just let the person be and let them breathe and let them bring snacks.Just let them relax. Right. Katherine: . Maybe don't sip a glass of wine, but having a cup of tea is fine. Exactly. Yeah. I remember one one thing that I think my therapist said that felt me helps me feel really safe was I had mentioned sexual abuse pretty early on in our, our therapeutic relationship together.[00:42:00] And it was probably a good year before I was like talking about something else. And she was like a while back, you mentioned the sexual abuse. There's a chance that that has some you know, impact on what's happening here. Like, would you mind sharing about that a little more? And so I did. And then at the end of the session, she said, Do you want to bring this up again, like if it feels important to you or do you want me to ask you about it?Like, would you prefer to bring it up or would you prefer for me to ask you about it? And that just felt, I just felt very empowered with that. And just like, she was like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna leave this in your hands. If you want to bring it up again and you want to talk about it, we will. If you. Want me to ask you about it?I can do that as well. And it just felt, you know, just very, it felt very empowering and it, and it definitely created a sense of safety for me. And I've [00:43:00] definitely like implemented that in, in with my own clients too. Just like, is this, is this something that you want to talk about more or do you want to just wait and bring it up?Later when you're ready and you just giving, yeah, just empowering the client and when they have been so disempowered and teaching them little ways that you're allowed to take this back, you're allowed to take this voice back. That's great. That is great. I, yeah. Is there anything else that you want to share about what a client might need or what a mental health first step?Professional might need in. Rachel: In this process, so starting with mental health professionals, there are going to be times like I've, I've gotten to a certain degree desensitized to hearing some pretty horrific stories. I was not at the beginning, of course, but it is good if you find that. You know, you want to be open to this [00:44:00] population.Sometimes they've been through really horrendous, horrendous things. And so it's good. It's important for you to take care of you. And if this really is too much for you, or if it's too triggering, cause you went through something similar, get more support for yourself. So that you can be able, right. Or you can choose if there are certain parts of this population you don't want to work with, that wouldn't be healthy for you.And it's okay to say that. It's okay to know that. And then it's good for you to have a resource list, because I never liked saying no to a client when I didn't have someone else to offer them, you know, like, how about try this person. And so then if you know that you're starting out and you're still very much affected by the things that you're being told.It is good to have at least three or four other names to refer people to for those cases and really, you know, again, you know, really make sure that you feel protected along the way until you get [00:45:00] maybe a little more able or desensitized. For clients. I think it's really good to know that, at least the way I talk about it that.They're the ones having the power in that space, and they might not know it, but I will let people know that like I make sure it's where it might. I'm not at all I don't have OCD traits sometimes I wish I had more of them in my house would be cleaner. But Right. But, I measure the furniture in my office, which is a weird thing. That might sound weird, but I make sure that my therapy chair isn't higher than the other chairs or the couch. Like I want us literally to be seeing eye to eye that we are equals here. And not lording over them just because I'm in my chair, you know, I don't have power.I will tell clients that I'm going to provide for them. My 31, 32 years of experience, but that they're hiring me, they're in charge. If I'm not giving them what they want, [00:46:00] they don't have to stay. It's like if you take your car to a mechanic and they don't fix the problem, go somewhere else. Or say, this is actually not what I'm needing.I'm needing more of this. Like, guide me to know what you would like, and then maybe I can provide that with more clarity, and we can work on defining what might be helpful here. But really, you can call the shots. And you can, you know, you can cancel your next appointment and that's okay, if you have stuff to do you can, I think it's also important when someone has been involved in a cult, sometimes they get very attached to the next person who is guiding them and leading them and they can get dependent.And it is my job, I think, to be a transitional object. And it's fine if people want to be dependent on me for a time, but I will say at some point, even though I know you're calling me to ask me what decision you should make about something, I would love it [00:47:00] if you, if we could work together where you will feel confident being the one where you can ask yourself that question and feel good about the answer you give yourself and trust it.So I can be that person for a while. But part of the goal here will be to hand the baton back to you, you know, I think it's an important message. Katherine: Absolutely. Yeah. And not just. I think that that for someone looking for a mental health professional that they can work with to, as you mentioned that collaboration and that mutuality and, and, and someone not showing up in that space and like I am the expert I know.This is what you need, et cetera, et cetera. That that's a good distinction to make. And, and you can typically sense that a little bit in that first meeting and that first consultation. Not always, but I feel like that's [00:48:00] something that that will come up. And. Yeah, and I also feel like it's, it's totally fine to ask a mental health professional in that initial consultation what are some books that you have read about this?What is, what is training that you have had on this? When you say that you're trauma informed. What does that mean exactly? Have you had training in that or is it just, you know what trauma is, you know, like, like having that you can ask those questions right out of the gate and and that's okay.And a good mental health professional is not going to get defensive. Rachel: Right. Even if people want to take a break, like I'll say sure. I mean, of course I don't even have to give them permission. They can take a break whenever they want, but if they want to see if they are able to take what they got from therapy and kind of just Use it on their own and, [00:49:00] and feel like they're able to call the shots in their life and see what they can do by themselves.I think it's really important to have people have that time. And then there's no shame in calling me and saying, well, something came up. And I realized I'm not equipped for that thing that just came up yet. So can I come back for a while? And yeah, I mean, you know where to reach me, you know, you have my number if you need to come back, great.But, and then when you're done with that, feel free to, you know, I also, I don't mind collaborating with other professionals. So if someone does EMDR, and I think that would be really good for. Client, then I'll, I will refer them or say, sure, they can go see someone else. The only time that becomes an issue is if someone else is seeing someone who I think is fraudulent in some way, like they're consulting with their psychic, you know, who's telling them that they don't need counseling.They just need to pay the psychic 10, 000 and they will free them of their negative energy. Okay. Then we're going to have a discussion [00:50:00] about that. But if it's someone healthy. Who is an adjunct. I think part of the wisdom that we have in this world is knowing who our resources are and utilizing them.And so I'm, I never feel in competition, but I will warn someone if I think they're getting advice from someone who is taking advantage of them. Katherine: Absolutely. Well, this has been amazing. And I know that. Both mental health professionals and folks looking for one are going to find this episode very, very helpful.If folks want to know more about you and the work that you do, where is the best place to find you? Rachel: Right. So you can listen to my podcast. It comes out each week. It's called indoctrination. It's on every platform, as far as I can tell, which is lovely. And I can be reached. All my information is on my website, Rachel Bernstein therapy.com. I'm Los Angeles based, but I work with people all over the world. And I have this support group. That's every other Wednesday [00:51:00] night on zoom. And I work with families with people who are trying to reach out to loved ones. Trying to plan a way to intervene if they feel they need to do that and doing just general counseling day to day in my office in Los Angeles but mostly still on Zoom.And so, yeah, there are a lot of places to reach me and I'm excited to have people reach out if they think it would be helpful. Is Katherine: your support group just kind of anyone can join at any time or do you have like Is it for like a certain amount of time and you Rachel: just right. Yeah, that's a great question.So it's open ended. But I just need to vet the person before because we have had issues with people just jumping on who were from a particular group and they were. spying basically on the group to see if former members of that group were coming to this and wanting to get their information. So I, as a safeguard talk to everyone [00:52:00] first to vet them before I give them the zoom link.And and then I do have right of refusal, like if someone was pretending to be someone turns out that they're not and they really are there to wreak havoc, they're no longer invited back, it needs to remain a safe place. And it really has, except for Scientology at the beginning. And that's why I have that.I have to have that interview process now because of them. But it's been great and it's been safe and it's a really nice feeling, nice kind of supportive, collaborative feeling in that group. But yeah, so people can join at any time. And it, people come when they come. It's very open ended and which I think people.Value that there isn't the expectation and I'm not going to contact them. Like what was wrong? How come you didn't Katherine: come? Yeah, that's great. And then one final thing you mentioned a [00:53:00] university that has a master's degree about coercive control I'd love to Drop that in the show notes as well. What was Rachel: the university?University of Salford. It's in England. And It's S A L F O R D. They have a program in coercive control. Katherine: Alright, I will look that up and I will make sure that makes it in the show notes. Thank you so much for Rachel: being here. Yes, thank you. Thanks for interviewing me. It was lovely to talk to you.

Brian Lee shares his personal story of experiencing spiritual abuse and what led him to start Broken to Beloved, an online summit and support resource for survivors. Register for the Broken to Beloved Summit January 23-26, 2024 HEREBrian Lee is a pastor, coach, and speaker. As a survivor of spiritual abuse and religious trauma, he has spent his time since leaving vocational ministry in 2021 working to provide recovery and resources for fellow victims and survivors. In 2023, he created and founded Broken to Beloved, a nonprofit organization that exists to help other victims and survivors through its Annual Summit and seasonal Cohorts, while also providing trauma awareness and safeguarding practices to pastors, leaders and churches.Based in Richmond, VA, Brian loves to go on outdoor adventures with his family, explore their neighborhood, community, and city, find good parks, enjoy good food, and have fun together. As a coffee snob and addict, he could always use another cup. Transcript (Transcript is unedited for typos or misspellings): Katherine: hey, Brian. Brian: Hey, Katherine. How's it going? Going? All right. How about you? Doing, Katherine: doing well, doing, doing okay for doing okay. Or a Tuesday. Brian: It's just for the end of the month slash year slash the world is losing its mind. Katherine: Right. I know like there's been a lot of moments this week where somebody will say something about Christmas and I'm like, Oh, that's, that's on Sunday.Yes. Okay. We are, we are still, there is still Christmas. Yes. Well, thanks for joining me. I am really excited to talk to you about your summit that you are hosting and curating in January for Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month. At the time this episode comes out, it will already be January. So I'm really excited to hear about that.I got to participate in that [00:01:00] last year. We'll be participating again this year. Great time to just connect with other people working in this spiritual abuse, recovery, religious trauma, recovery space, and also. Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month for folks who are not aware is in January. And we were talking before we started recording about when we first heard about Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month.When, when was it for listeners that you first Brian: heard about it? I just learned about it last year because, and I, but to be fair, I've only been doing this work for about a year now. I wish I knew about it sooner. And I think we were both saying it's like, we can't find who originated this thing. But it's been around for at least 20 years, which to me is crazy.Yeah. I learned about it because of Aaron hung, who's an artist who was doing that whole AZ trauma recovery series on her Instagram page. And I was like, spiritually, it'd be some awareness a month. That's a thing. And then the more I dove into it, I was like, Oh my gosh, this is absolutely a thing. And it's been around a long time.Why do we not know more about it? Katherine: Exactly. I was wondering too, when, [00:02:00] when did that book, the oldest probably. Documented writing about spiritual abuse is probably the subtle power of spiritual abuse. I Brian: think that's what I was thinking. Yep. And that was, I think it was written in the 90s. I want to say, okay, I'm going to look for a publication date because I want to be sure.But I remember reading it thinking I was like, did they just write this like a year ago? And it's like, no, it's been around for a very long time. Yeah, Katherine: yeah, yeah. And then even just like the reality that PTSD. Was not an official diagnosis until the 80s. Brian: Yes. Katherine: Yes. We're very new in this trauma world. Yes.We're all very new to this. This is a new, new territory for all of us. Did you, did you find the Brian: date? Amazon says the publication date is 2005, but that seems late to me. I feel like it was before that. It has a very nice Katherine: cover. Brian: It does! Which is why I feel like it is. So now I'm opening my Kindle to look for the actual copyright date on the inside of it.Yeah, Katherine: maybe that was the most [00:03:00] recent Brian: publication. That's what I'm wondering. Library, look for the yellow book right there. The yellow book. Yeah. That's what I call it. The yellow book. Copyright page. 1991. You were right. Boom. Boom. First time. Katherine: First time. Yeah. So I guess that's the first time that that became something Brian: that.People and for reference to me that feels like 10 years ago, but it's 32 years ago.Yes, I know that tells you how old I am feel like that long ago, but because it wasn't it wasn't Katherine: Yeah, I know because i'm like i've lived Yeah, I've lived longer in the 2000s than I lived in the, in the, in the, in the 1900s, 1900s or so. Brian: It's been a while. How dare you? Yes, we are, we are, we're getting, we're getting up there.We're getting up there. Yes, yes we are. [00:04:00] Speaking of Katherine: age, actually I have nothing. Nothing to say about it. I'm just trying to segue talking about broken to beloved, which is your summit that's coming up and to get us started. I would love to hear whatever you feel comfortable sharing about your spiritual abuse story and how can you, you said that you discovered this word, right?Or this phrase, spiritual abuse, this term fairly recently, when did you, maybe just to start out, when did you first hear the term and did you have an aha moment like many of us Brian: do? Gosh, when did I first hear the term? I honestly don't even know, but it was probably from one of the books that I started reading that validated that experience for me.It might have been K. J. Ramsey's book The Lord is My Courage, and I read it more as a, oh, maybe this will help me in a [00:05:00] dark season, and that's one of my favorite psalms anyway, so, and then I didn't realize she was going to go into their whole spiritual abuse story, and then I am a person who reads all the footnotes and then goes and finds all the primary resources and reads those, so Katherine: that's favorite reader.They were like, we put this in here for you. Brian: Yes. Well, and that's, I love footnotes. So, so because of her, I think is, is how I found the subtle power of spiritual abuse. And then from there, I went down the rabbit hole. I mean, something's not right. Redeeming Power, Church Called Tove, Try Softer, Narcissism Comes to Church, you know, all these books.And now in the last two years, I've read over 40. Five books on that topic, which seems overwhelming because it kind of is, but it all came out of my personal experience, right? So I left my last church in July of 2021. I had been there for just about three years, I think. And I walked into that church.[00:06:00] My wife and I have both moved here saying to each other it would be really nice if this works out And if it doesn't because we've already been hurt before I think we're done with ministry for a while Which feels kind of crazy to walk into a church saying that like this is the last stop Yes.Basically. Yeah. Not indefinitely, not forever, but for a while, we're going to just give this a break because we're done. And so, you know, my story goes back over 10 years now, I think I worked at a Christian college as the marketing, as the graphic designer for the marketing department. I had also attended and graduated from that college, which isn't unusual.But it was a completely different experience being a student there than it was being on staff there. And I didn't know what to do with the cognitive dissonance of looking at leaders that I respected and admired Who seemed to preach the gospel and talk about servant leadership and humility and all these things But then I would be sitting in meetings I was like I don't know who this person is who is so [00:07:00] angry and belittling and demeaning and authoritarian and all these pieces And so finally leaving that environment I need to ask you a Katherine: question, just like following up on that, because I feel like that's such a common theme of like the, what you preach and what you teach is not who you are.And I just, I just hear that all the time. And just was talking to someone about the other day about her father, who was a pastor and he. He was a pastor and he would preach these things about like parenting and then he would like not be that type of parent. And I'm just curious from the experience that you had what, what is your take on that of like, why, like, you obviously know what's right.Where, where is this disconnect happening because you can preach it enough to convince people then what's happening here. What's your Brian: [00:08:00] take on that? My take for the last two or three years now has been, it all boils down to the need for power and control. And this message is going to work and this message is going to work.And so the secondary or maybe even tertiary word that comes out of that is optics. It all comes down to optics and the way things look and appear so that I can maintain power and control. And so if I can maintain this image of, then I will continue to have power and control and influence over these people as long as they don't see behind the curtain.And if they do see behind the curtain, it doesn't matter because I control them anyway because I'm their boss, right? Or because I am their spiritual authority or leader or whatever it is. So I, it's wrecking. Man, there's so many ways I can go so the last pastor I had would often say things like when I first started.It's like you have to recognize the hats that you wear when you walk into a room. So I know that I'm the [00:09:00] pastor. So I know that there's a power dynamic. So I had to be aware that when I'm leading a conversation or that there's going to be a shift in something somewhere. But then this is the same guy who would absolutely manipulate that power dynamic.Yeah, or pretend that he was the servant or the victim or the low man on the totem pole is like you don't get it both ways. Like so. So I know that you cognitively know these things to be true. And yet I see you do the polar opposite. And then use those things to twist them to your advantage. Yes. In the way of whether ignorantly or intentionally, both are worse, harming someone else in the process.Katherine: Yeah, and that is the crux of spiritual abuse and why it is devastating and so damaging and so complex and so confusing is like these people are preaching these good messages that they are aware are quote unquote good messages, but [00:10:00] using that intentionally to manipulate and control people. So then these good messages.suddenly become infused with this thing that makes us just terrified. Brian: Poison. It's poison. Katherine: Yeah. And we're just, we're just like, I can't even engage with this, even though some of this stuff is really good, you know, that. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and yet it just causes this. Massive cavern of, of just fear and doubt and trauma.Brian: Yes, I think that's where a lot of the confusion comes from, too, is because, because so much of it is truth, right? Or is based on quote, good intentions or scripture or whatever it is, but then you see it manipulated and twisted. So now you don't know what to believe or what's true or good anymore.Right, and you can't Katherine: trust good people who are saying absolutely, it's like absolutely walk into a room and you're like, are they good or [00:11:00] not, you know, just, just being able to trust, even just what people say and like, and then you're kind of in evangelicalism and church culture, you like you walk into a church and and everyone's believing the same thing.Well, Are, are they, are they, are we, are we all on the same page here? I talked to someone the other day that like teaches their children just because someone is a pastor doesn't mean they're interpreting scripture actually accurately. And I was like, okay, that's a very wise thing to teach your child, but so sad that you're saying.has led you to teach that to your child. Brian: Yeah. Yeah. Same. Well, and I've heard, I've heard parents and other people just like, because normally we instruct our kids to pay attention or listen to the grownups. And I've heard other grown up, other adults and friends say, it's like, actually, that's not always true because grownups won't always tell you the right thing to do, or they might be wanting to hurt you in some kind of way.And it's like, I hate that we have to teach our kids that, but it's, that's [00:12:00] the way of the world today. And it's just really unfortunate and sad and grieving. Katherine: Yes. When you're allowed to be afraid of Santa Claus. Yes. Brian: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Yes. That's okay if you're afraid. So trust your gut on that one.Yeah. So anyway, so I went through that experience three times in three different environments. Three times. The first time, not necessarily in a row, but very close. So the first time at a college with an older leader, mentor, figure, admired. Second time with a, someone who very young and then I had a short break for about two years and then ended up where I was now with someone who's basically my contemporary.But it's just getting it, getting hit from all sides of it. And I had had enough. So when we left, when I left the church in July of 21, I was like, I am absolutely done for a while and I've got to figure all of this out because I don't know why it keeps happening to me, you know, a result of all the gas lighting is like, it must be my fault.So it must be something wrong in the denominator. [00:13:00] Exactly. And we had already been seeing our counselor therapist for a while. So we just kind of dove into the topic head first. It's like, I just, I'm in a tailspin. I don't know what to do. Like, I don't know which way is up right now, and I just help. Just help.And she, she is a trauma informed therapist, which was extreme. I'm grateful for, because that's not why we started going to her. But that helped to process all of this stuff and then finding these books and finding these resources and chasing the rabbit holes got me to the place was like, okay, I can name spiritual abuse.I can define it. I can name trauma and define it. And after about a year and a half. Of doing that work and processing through the trauma and the abuse. I was like, I think I might be in a place where I feel like I'm doing better and I'm not doing great, but I'm definitely better than I was. And I think I actually have a framework for how I want to help other people because everywhere around me, I see people dealing with the same thing.And I hate that we're all here. Katherine: [00:14:00] Absolutely. Did you have, when you were like doing research, did you have something that you, how are you defining it at the time? You just calling it church hurt. What were you Googling? Brian: What were the things that you? Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, I think it starts with church hurts.That's kind of the phrase that people hear. And then once I got my brain around the term spiritual abuse, I was like, Oh, okay. And then of course everyone quotes, the body keeps a score. So I forced myself through that one. And then through that one learned, learned trauma and then found books on religious trauma and started doing that whole thing.So just coming up with definitions and just kind of collecting all these in a master Google doc for my brain and figuring it out from there. Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. And then at what point did you say? Yeah. So you said that I want to help people and help make sense of this. Where did the vision for broken to beloved come from?Cause last year was the first year, right? April, wait, I guess that's this year, right? [00:15:00] Brian: Yeah, it is. Yeah. April of this year. Yeah. 20, 23 at the time. So it didn't start as broken into beloved. It started as a six week cohort, which I call through, which is based on the children's book. Going on a bear hunt because we can't go around it.Can't go over it. You just got to go through it. Right. And that came up from a friend, Amy. I was speaking at her summit. She does an Enneagram summit and I also do Enneagram coaching, but she said, what do you want to talk about? I was like, this sounds crazy, but. Do you want to talk like, can I talk about like spiritual abuse?She goes, what? We have to do that. And so it just got all my wheels turning and then that's what kind of turned into the cohort. So I, I created a framework for a six week cohort to lead people. You know, and the story of that is like, because I over identified myself as broken for so long, I literally walked into this last church interview with the pastors and elders and said, Listen, they were like, hey, why should we hire you?And my answer was, well, actually, you [00:16:00] don't want to hire me because I'm damaged goods. Let me just disqualify myself to you now because you don't want me because I'm broken and I'm really damaged. So you don't want me here. And so I recognize that I was wearing that as my identity. And so through KJ Ramsey's book, through all these other books that identified Wade Mullin, something's not right and all these other things, it's like, Oh, okay, so maybe I'm not the problem.Yeah, maybe there's stuff broken in the system and it's not to say I'm not blameless for a lot of things because I certainly am but it was Developing a framework for what does it look like to move out of my brokenness and to actually name the things that have happened to Me because we can't heal what we can't name.So naming things is really important Recognizing where I am in time and space so that I can pull myself to the present and recognize when I'm safe when I'm not When I'm triggered or activated when I'm not And then using all the polyvagal theory stuff that she includes in there. And then [00:17:00] recognizing how embodiment is so important and breath practices and mindfulness things and moving forward so that we can recognize, identify, and then embrace our belovedness as our actual identity, not our brokenness.So the cohort came first in October of 2022. It went really, really well. I did it again in January of 23, which is the beginning of the year that we're recording. And so coming out of those two cohorts, I was like, man, it seems like there's an audience for this and a need for it. And all the books that I have read have done a really great job defining terms for me.They do a good job of validating experiences and telling stories. I've read almost nothing that offers what now? Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Like, I just don't know what to do. Like, okay, great. Thanks for sharing the information, but what do I actually do now? Cause I still feel stuck. So the whole point of the broken to beloved summit, which came from the bookends of the cohort of starting broken and ending beloved [00:18:00] was to invite all the authors that I had read and the resources that I had found online, get them in one place and just say, great.What now? What now? What now? And to make it practical, right? So the whole tagline I use for everything is finding a pathway toward healing and wholeness. When Katherine: you were describing yourself as broken when you would walk into these interviews, what did that mean to you? Was that yeah, expound on what that meant and then how is that showing up for Brian: you?I don't know if I've ever been asked that question. I just felt broken. Like my whole brain was. I'm just unsure of what to believe or what was right or wrong. I'm also an Enneagram One, which is very right wrong, black white minded. I always think I have to do things the right way. So for me It was always a, well, if I was fired from this place, or if I had to leave because I was so toxic, what did I do wrong?But other people [00:19:00] loved me, and it was just this group, so maybe it was, maybe it was them, but maybe it was me, but I'm not sure, and I think I'm really good at my job. And people tell me I'm good at my job, but the pastor just told me I'm not and that he needs to replace me because the board told him so even though they've never given me feedback in any of my reviews that anything needed to change when I've been asking for them for years.So it's, it's all that kind of stuff that in your brain messes with you. It's also the the second place that we left, we were friends with. The pastor and his wife, we graduated together. We were alumni together. I was like, we thought we were friends. We hung out at each other's houses. And then to do something like that and to feel so stabbed in the back, really It was a, it was just kind of whiplash, right?It's like, what, what, what happened there? And so what's wrong with me and what's wrong with my relationships? Cause I thought we were okay, but apparently not because then this happens. So walking into this last interview to just say, Hey, I'm damaged goods. I'm broken. I mean, that's really what it was. And then I had [00:20:00] had two years at another church where I.Genuinely thrived for two years. And I was like, Oh, there's actually a different way to do things. Yeah. And I didn't realize that. And then we experienced more trauma. One of our best friends passed away tragically in a car accident. And so that threw everything into tailspin and dealing with the aftermath of that.So it was just kind of like, Hey, we're really not in a good place right now for a transition or for something to change. And yet I felt so. Bound is not the right word I'm looking for, but I'm going to use it by the whole idea of. If God wants to do something here, I don't want to close the door and say no.And I don't say that to over spiritualize anything or myself, but it's just the words that came out of my mouth at the time. So we just kind of kept going with the process. And I remember the first several weeks slash months of having started this job, just trying to be really vulnerable with people and honest, just like, listen, I, I don't come here pretending I'm perfect in any [00:21:00] way I'm really broken right now and we need help. Just so you know that, and I might have some answers or help for you, but I'm coming at it from a position of brokenness and the more I do this work, the more I recognize how okay that really is.Katherine: Yeah, and it kind of sounds like as you're describing. What brokenness was to you? It sounds like trauma, but it sounds like internalized trauma of this is somehow my fault, like these outside messages and this trauma that I'm experiencing is due to something. Brian: Yeah. Potentially. Well, and isn't that part of the toxic theology that a lot of churches teach is like that you are responsible for your sins and how they label everything as sin.So if something bad happened in your life, it must be your fault because you weren't holy enough. You didn't pray enough. You didn't whatever [00:22:00] enough. Right. And it's like not. Not taking into account any of the effects of abuse where the abused actually did nothing. It's like when a woman gets raped, Oh, what were you wearing?How did you contribute? What perfume do you have? It's like, come on, really? But that's where I was mentally, emotionally, all the things. Katherine: Yeah, and that thin layer of, like, you must be sinning or God is, like, sanctifying you and is allowing these happen, these things to happen to, like, grow your faith or, you know, and, like, getting to that place, naming, as you said, getting to that place where you just, you're just able to point out it and to say this was not okay, period.Like should never have happened. We should never should never have had to go through this like this was never an okay thing when you got to your church, the last church and you like was this the church that you were [00:23:00] saying I am broken and I am damaged goods. Yes. And then that Brian: obviously didn't go did not pan out.Was Katherine: that used against you Brian: was what part used against me? The fact that you were Katherine: open about your brokenness. Brian: Yes and no, I would say by the pastor. Yes, because I think in the kindest way I can say this possible, he's a master manipulator. So I think he knew us coming in and me saying those things up front and they pitched themselves very much as, oh, well, we are a healing church.We're a place where people come so they can just receive and sit back and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. And but then, you know, six months, two months, four months, two years later, they're saying, Oh, you're still praying for that thing. You're not healed yet. Are you not over that yet? Right? It's that kind of stuff.And so those are the major red flags that go up. It's like, maybe this is not such a great place. Katherine: Absolutely. Absolutely. So pitching themselves as a healing place and then, and then not. [00:24:00] Not so Brian: much. Yeah, maybe you used to be but not so Katherine: much today. How would you say? broken to beloved is Creating a space that you would say is just like healthier than that Like how how are you seeking to make that a healthy space for Brian: people?Mm hmm. That's a great question. Thank you I don't know cuz I'm still figuring it out. One of the first words that comes to mind is honesty and trying to be honest about Whatever it is that we are feeling or naming or experiencing because one of the things I've learned is that when we try to push away or repress any of those things, we often get ourselves in trouble because it's something is trying to be expressed there.And it doesn't mean that we. Allow rage or ranting to take place just because because there are safe places to do to do that too, but probably not within a general community, right? Within an intimate relationship, [00:25:00] maybe, but not within a an open space. So I think the honesty piece is one of them. I think the openness is another.Another word that comes to mind is kindness. I think there was an interview I did last year with David Gate, who does all that kind of typewriter poetry, which I love. And he said something that really has stuck with me ever since. And it's this idea that you can have all these progressive, or not progressive, all these fundamentalist Christians.Or conservatives or evangelicals or whatever you want to call them who go through this process of abuse and or trauma and then deconstruction and then leave the church or whatever it is, but they don't actually examine or change anything and they just switch over to progressive liberalism or progressivism or whatever it is, and they're still fundamentalists at heart.Absolutely. And I think the fundamentalist piece, the certainty that so many people carry. Doesn't make room for curiosity [00:26:00] and kindness which I think embodies a lot of what I'm trying to do is to be open and curious and kind because I also see voices online who just come across as angry all the time.It's like, I get it. There's room for that. I'm angry too. But, and there are times that I drive by the church and I'm like, can we just burn it all down? Sure. Right. I feel all that, but it doesn't, I don't feel helped or served by it. Yeah. The Psalms, when I did an interview this morning, and the Psalms are 75 to 80 percent imprecatory and lament, so there's plenty of room for honest, raw emotion, but there's also a time and place for it, and it doesn't have to be public, and I don't, actually, here's, here's a good thing, I don't need everyone to agree with me.Because your experience is your own and you need to figure out how you're going to process it. Here's how I've processed mine and I'm not going to prescribe anything to you that you should do it this way too. But I'm going to approach it with openness [00:27:00] and kindness and curiosity and hopefully safety.Yeah. Katherine: Yeah. And I think like that. Openness, kindness, curiosity can create that safety and, and, and having that space where people can come on their own journey and find their own, their own, yeah, like find their own, their own path. And, and, and that's also just sort of like, Anti the opposite of what we experienced in the church of like, only me, the person with the, you know, title can tell you what is helpful and what, what God is really saying and putting that agency back into each individual person is sweet.Not what we were taught church and we were taught not to trust ourselves in the church context. And so, yeah, I love that, that openness, openness, kindness, and curiosity. I love it. What are some of your hopes and [00:28:00] dreams for the summit?Brian: I hope that it's helpful. I hope that it feels practical for people. I hope that people walk away with a sense of, I mean, the three words I use most often are hope, healing, and wholeness. And I say that knowing that there is real harm done when others try to prescribe a timeline to your healing. That healing is not a destination, right?And I think Laura Anderson just wrote about this in her book. It's like healing is not a destination. It's not an arrival point. It's something that we are just Doing probably for the rest of our lives. So when I say that, it's not like, Hey, show up to the summit and you will be healed. Absolutely not. But I do hope it gives you really practical tools that you can walk away with and say, Oh, this thing will help me.Right. This thing will help me to take a step. And so we had 1, 200 people register last year, which blows my mind for trying something for the first time. [00:29:00] So I it would be great to have as many or more. Not because of numbers, because God knows I hate numbers because so many churches are driven by it. But the idea that people are helped.And and moved in that direction of healing and wholeness and hope, I think so many of us who go through this kind of abuse or trauma walk away feeling so isolated, broken, like you're saying, with a lack of agency or not empowered that my hope is that you walk away with a sense of hope, feeling empowered and a sense of agency to take control of something in your life because so much of it has been stripped away from you.I think those are the kinds of things I hope for. Yeah, Katherine: absolutely. And I think even just the reality that we can like walk into a space and it's, you know, 18 or whatever speakers all speaking on something similar. And so there's this awareness that like, at least all of these people have, have, have some experience with this thing.I've gone through this or understand this and that [00:30:00] validation of like, yes, oh, people are talking about this. And people see this as something that is really important and causes a lot of pain and deserves attention, deserves an entire summit. I think that that in itself is, is So validating and so helpful.What's, what is some information about this? What can you tell us about how folks can find the summit register if they're ready for it?Brian: Sure. We do have dates. We will be January 23rd through 26th. Last year was 3 days. I learned that was too short to pack that many speakers talking about trauma and abuse. So I'm spreading it out over 4 days and I'm inviting less speakers. So it's not so overwhelming every day. If you go to BrokenToBeloved. org slash subscribe, you can join my mailing list, which is where I'll probably send information first. Or you can just follow me on Instagram, which are where I post when I have time to[00:31:00] at BrokenToBeloved.Okay. All Katherine: right. I'll all of this information in the show notes Brian: so folks can read it. Thank you. Katherine: And I'm very excited to be there and to be a part of it, watch all of the speakers. And is there anything else that you want to share about broken to beloved the cohort. Your journey, Brian: anything? No, I, I mean, we are like you, a 501 C three.So if you're looking for someone to support or an organization, this is the work that we're trying to do. So you can just go to same broken to beloved. org and you can find all the stuff there. I'm super grateful for you and your work and having stumbled across you last year. I, I love and support the stuff that you're doing as well.Grateful to have you at the summit twice now. Um, And just love doing the work with you. Katherine: Yeah, so I'm glad to partner in this with you as well. Thanks so Brian: much. Thank you.

Philadelphia Sheriff Randy Crawford talks the importance of self defense, firearms training, and more through his organization Omni Shield Self-defense LLC, during domestic abuse awareness month.

In this episode, we are shining a spotlight on a crucial issue as we recognize October as Domestic Violence Awareness Month. It's a time to raise our voices and stand together against all forms of domestic violence, including one of the most insidious yet often overlooked aspects: financial abuse. Join us as we delve into the shadows of domestic abuse and one of its forms, financial abuse. We start by unpacking the fundamental question: What is Financial Abuse? By definition financial abuse is the use of a person's money or finances without their knowledge or consent in order to gain power and control over them. This type of abuse is a less commonly understood form of domestic abuse. We believe in the power of knowledge, awareness, and community support to make a difference. So, whether you're tuning in to learn more about financial abuse, seeking help for yourself or someone you care about, or simply standing in solidarity with survivors, this episode is for you. Together, let's break the cycle of abuse and create a safer, more empowered future for all." If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic violence, call the National Domestic Violence Hotline: 800-799-7233 In this episodes we discuss: What is Financial Abuse? How does Financial Abuse reveal itself What can you do about it? Connect with us on social media: Facebook Instagram Tik tok  Listen to more podcast episodes, read our divorce blog, and join our free divorce support group at mydivorcesolution.com. The We Chat Divorce podcast (hereinafter referred to as the “WCD”) represents the opinions of Catherine Shanahan, Karen Chellew, and their guests to the show. WCD should not be considered professional or legal advice. The content here is for informational purposes only. Views and opinions expressed on WCD are our own and do not represent that of our places of work. WCD should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. Listeners should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No listener should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information on WCD without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on WCD. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Catherine Shanahan and Karen Chellew do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned on WCD, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third-party materials or content of any third-party site referenced on WCD do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Catherine Shanahan or Karen Chellew. WCD, CATHERINE SHANAHAN, AND KAREN CHELLEW EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL'S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST. If you would like to obtain a typed transcript of this podcast episode, please email us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com. Please be sure to include the episode name in the transcript email request. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today's podcast is being recorded on June 15, World Elder Abuse Awareness Day. we at specifically for seniors and our guest from the national center on elder abuse, encourage you to share this episode of the podcast with friends and relatives who know an older adult who may be in jeopardy.  Lori Mars, JD, LLM, is the Deputy Director of the National Center on Elder Abuse. She is an assistant professor of clinical family medicine in the Department of Family Medicine at the Keck School of Medicine of USC. After practicing law for more than 20 years, LORI'S concentration lies at the intersection of law, aging, and elder abuse. She has a master's degree in law in alternative dispute resolution and serves as a volunteer long-term care ombudsman. She is passionate about elder justice and advocating for the rights of all older adults to live with dignity and respect. Lori and I talk about the role of the National Center on Elder Abuse, elder mistreatment, socio-cultural perceptions of mistreatment, types of elder mistreatment, its impact, the physical, emotional and financial signs of elder mistreatment, the risk factors of abuse and intervention and prevention. We apologize for the technical problems with Lori Mars recording.

World Abuse Awareness Day is Thursday June 15. Missouri Secretary of State Jay Ashcroft says five-million Americans experience elder abuse each year. Secretary Ashcroft tells 939 the Eagle's "Wake Up Mid-Missouri" that some seniors are being abused financially and physically. He encourages anyone with information about elder abuse to call the secretary of state's vulnerable citizens unit hotline number at (855) 653-7300. Missourians are encouraged to wear purple on World Elder Abuse Awareness Day:

As our geriatric population grows incrementally, now is the critical time for healthcare professionals to better understand how to support the needs of our seniors while reflecting on their professional responsibility to identify signs, stages and symptoms of elder abuse. Join Sonya Dunbar, the Geriatric Toothfairy as the Sanders Sisters reflect on the importance of supporting our seniors in their healthcare needs. Sonya Dunbar, AKA the Geriatric Toothfairy, is a Registered Dental Hygienist, TEDx, and International public speaker guided by over 30 years of dental experience in private practice, skilled nursing facilities, and academia. Sonya and her husband, Gerald Dunbar, are the owners of Mobile Dental Xpress, providing comprehensive dental care to long-term care facilities. In addition, Sonya is a geriatric oral health educator and trainer. Sonya works diligently to educate as many people as possible on the importance of oral health as we age. Sonya is a US Navy Veteran and is pursuing a Ph.D. in Gerontology. Sonya is a serial entrepreneur, brand ambassador with over 100k social media followers, business coach, and Detox Stinkin Thinkin mindset coach for business owners and entrepreneurs. The Co-Founder of the National Mobile & Teledentistry Dental Conference, The American Mobile Dentistry & Teledentistry Alliance, the prestigious Denobi Awards, and Sonya is behind the new I Woman Podcast and movement. Sonya is the published author of three books and is a recipient of the 020 Philips Heart to Hands Award and the 2022 Sunstar Award. As if that is not enough, the National Day Archives LLC has proclaimed November 9th of each calendar year as Geriatric Toothfairy Day. Website: www.sonyadunbar.com IG: @geriatric_toothfairy Floss and Flip-Flops with the Sanders sisters features hosts dental hygienist and speaker Katrina M. Sanders, RDH, and podiatrist Dr Elizabeth Sanders, DPM. Together, the sisters discuss the oral-systemic link and its impact—from your teeth down to your toes. The podcast is produced monthly by Dental Products Report® and Modern Hygienist®, in partnership with The Sanders sisters. For additional content for dental professionals visit DPR and MH at dentalproductsreport.com. Katrina Sanders, RDH, can be reached at:  Website: katrinasanders.com Facebook Instagram LinkedIn

Join Adam Cox as he engages in conversation with Ronia Fraser, an esteemed survivor of narcissistic abuse who has emerged as the foremost women's trauma recovery coach in the United Kingdom. To mark World Narcissistic Abuse Awareness Day, they delve into the intricacies of this destructive form of abuse and its profound impact on its victims.  They explore the catalyst that ignited Ronia's journey towards coaching and gain insights into the mechanics of her highly effective recovery system. Ronia, equipped with her extensive experience, also imparts valuable guidance on supporting friends and loved ones enduring narcissistic abuse, as well as offering indispensable advice for individuals trapped within such toxic relationships. https://www.roniafraser.com/

On this episode, Karen speaks with Courtney Friel, an anchor and reporter for KTLA in Los Angeles, California, and the author of a memoir, “Tonight At 10: Kicking Booze and Breaking News,” which details her ascent in the news business while dealing with alcohol and drug addiction. Courtney is here to share her story and her journey to recovery

Guests: Laura Conover Tracy Miller

  LIKE A BOSS Is doing a yearly 2022 audit to make space for improvement in 2023. Please support us by completing a survey. We appreciate everyone who has stayed with us this long! CLICK HERE to complete the survey. PROGRAMS AVAILABLE TO WORK WITH ME ARE BEING REVAMPED FOR 2023, STAY TUNED!! IN THE MEANTIME…CONNECT WITH ME: I absolutely love connecting and supporting other women and building deep connections!! We recently opened a new networking group inside of Instagram and also gather once a month for brunch in ABQ NM.  If you're interested in joining us whether you're local or out of state or in any part of the world- we'd love to have you and support you in any way we can!! DM me on Instagram and we'll get connected :) Connect with me on Instagram 

This video consists of an Audio/Podcast Interview by a very talented and insightful survivor of Narcissistic Abuse, of Narc Con content creator. Please find Grace on Podcasts under the channel title 'Saving Grace', for some very interesting interviews and Amazing content.Coaching Enquiries - narcscon@gmail.comFirst Aired on Utube November 2021https://youtu.be/3d57jJDiRvgSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/narcon/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

THIS PODCAST CONTAINS GRATUITOUS SWEARING FROM A SMALL SCOTTISH WOMAN. Repelling abusers is easier and cheaper than simply trying to stop abusers abusing. Let's be realistic, practical & honest here.... --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/lw-hawksby6/support

Vanessa Reiser was love bombed by her narcissistic ex in such an extravagant manner--like being showered with expensive gifts, to expensive cars, to a $150,000 engagement ring, and travels across the world. She didn't have time to breathe, much less clock in the red flags happening left and right. Vanessa is a therapist and works hard today to raise awareness to narcissistic spousal abuse, and started a movement by running 285 miles across the state of New York to raise awareness to their cause. Listen and learn how Vanessa was able to come up for air, evaluate and understand her situation and how she separated herself from the man that first swept her off her feet. Host Information:  Instagram: Dr Ramani's IG - @doctorramani Facebook: Dr Ramani's FB - @doctorramani Twitter: Dr Ramani's TW - @DoctorRamani  YouTube: Dr. Ramani's YT - DoctorRamani Guest Information:  Instagram: Vanessa Reiser's IG - @vanessareiserlcsw Twitter: Vanessa Reiser's TW - @vprockland https://tellatherapist.net/  #NavigatingNarcissism I want to hear from you, too.  Have a toxic topic you want me to explore? Email me at askdrramani@redtabletalk.com   I just might answer you questions on air.  This podcast should not be used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and/or therapy from a health care professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Laurel Sykes, Executive Vice President and Chief Risk Officer at American Riviera Bank, talks with Vicki Johnson, Deputy District Attorney from the Santa Barbara County District Attorney's office as part of a two part series for National Elder Abuse Awareness month. Episode One focuses on highlighting scams as well as how and where to report scams.

Laurel Sykes, Executive Vice President and Chief Risk Officer at American Riviera Bank, continues her discussion with Vicki Johnson, Deputy District Attorney from the Santa Barbara County District Attorney's office in part two of the series recorded as part of American Riviera Bank's National Elder Abuse Awareness month efforts. Episode Two focuses on chronic victimization and methods of intervention, and includes a personal testimony by Sandra Gallo, Senior Product Manager for the Bank, who recently had the misfortune of watching a loved one suffer the consequences of fraud.

On this episode of The Cam & Otis show we are joined by Valencia Peterson also known as "Coach V". Valencia Peterson is the Founder and Executive Director of Open-Door Abuse Awareness Prevention (ODAAP), a nonprofit organization that endeavors to prevent all facets of violence and abuse in and with our youth through a trauma-informed lens and the medium of sports.As always this show is brought to you by Tribe and Purpose.  You've put the work in but you're not sure how to reap the rewards. It's time to focus on the success you have planned for yourself and your team.The Tribe + Purpose team can guide you to build on that success to have even more.Learn more at www.tribe-purpose.comand connect with Coach V on LinkedIn here:https://www.linkedin.com/in/valencia-peterson-72705447Or her website: http://odaap.org/new-pageYouTube Link to Episode: https://youtu.be/-eqrF_qtMlU

Our friend and attorney Justin Underwood joins us for Ask a Lawyer.

KUOW's Austin Jenkins reports.

Episode 37 features Anna Mvze! We go over her music career and what it takes to make dope music, her upbringing, coming to Texas from Washington, and so much more! Hope you guys enjoy this episode!

Since 2016, June 1st has been World Narcissistic Abuse Awareness Day. Narcissistic abuse is an emotional abuse where the abuser only cares about themselves, using words and actions to manipulate their partner. While physical abuse leaves marks, emotional abuse is invisible and difficult to prove and has a long-term negative impact. It often goes unnoticed as there aren't any laws prohibiting mind games or name-calling. The occurrence aims to raise awareness and educate people about what narcissistic abuse is, the warning signs, and how to avoid pathological people. In this episode, I talk about what a Narcasstic Abuser looks like from the warning signs to the red flags, as well as sharing my own experiences, as a victim of Narcissistic Abuse. I also share how it can affect your life and the steps I took to start the healing journey. Below. I have added extra resources and tools to help as well. You can learn more on [www.wnaad.com](http://www.wnaad.com) and how to make a difference!Red Table Talk- SECRETS TO SURVIVING A NARCISSIST IN YOUR LIFE: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=374904853623871

Narcissist Translations is a collection of phrases narcissists use, translated into real English. An accurate and concise understanding of the narcissist's internal and external dialogs can help us to challenge the false reality that they create for us. #narcissisttranslation #thingsnarcissistssay #narcissist #shorts #narcissisticabuseawarenessSubscribe to Narcissistic Abuse Recovery with Angie Atkinson on Soundwise