Podcasts about feeling good together

How to Give Critical / Negative Feedback In a Loving, Constructive Way AND How to Avoid the Common Traps Today's podcast features Dr. Jill Levitt, Director of Training at the www.FeelingGoodInstitute.com in Mountain View, California and co-leader of David's weekly TEAM-CBT training group at Stanford. Rhonda and I are psyched, because every podcast or teaching event with Jill is almost certain to be fabulous. And this podcast is no exception! Rhonda asks members of her Wednesday training group (see below for contact information of you think you might want to join) to take turns teaching the group.  One week she was puzzled because almost no one filled in their feedback forms, and when she asked them why, they said that they had some concerns about the teaching but didn't feel comfortable criticizing the person who taught. Some of the criticisms they share with Rhonda were: It was boring. I didn't learn anything new. The teacher didn't explain anything in a way that I could understand. Is this a problem that you have as well? Do you find it hard to criticize others, and keep quiet on the assumption that saying nothing is better than opening your mouth and saying something hurtful? If so, I have some good news and some bad news for you. First, the bad news. Tonight, you'll discover exactly why and how saying nothing is actually a pretty hostile and mean thing to do. But here's the GOOD news. You'll also learn the secrets of how to deliver criticism in a way that's loving, authentic, and helpful if—and that might be a big IF—that's something you're willing to do! A sage—cannot remember who—once said that “When you say nothing, you're actually shouting quietly. What in the world does THAT mean? And Robert Frost, in his famous poem, Fire and Ice, wrote: Some say the world will end in fire, Some say in ice. From what I've tasted of desire I hold with those who favor fire. But if it had to perish twice, I think I know enough of hate To say that for destruction ice Is also great And would suffice. Essentially, Frost is saying that if you're angry, there are two classic ways of being aggressive; you can be fiery and agitated and attack the other person, verbally or physically, or you can be cold and withdraw, saying nothing, so as to freeze the other person out. These are opposite extremes but are equally destructive. And, for most of us, difficult impulses to resist. But there's a third alternative, which might be, according to Robert Frost, the “road less traveled by.” You can express your negative feelings, including anger, in a respectful, or even loving way. And that's the focus of today's show. My show notes will only give an overview, but the richness of this particular podcast is in the actual dialogue and role-play demonstrations with critical feedback. We began with an overview of some of the key techniques when giving someone negative feedback, including stroking and “I Feel” Statements, but emphasized that your tone, goal, and spirit is the entire key to how you come across, and how the other person responds. Jill told a moving and dramatic story of an interaction with her mother, who has been quite ill, and she'd been having a really hard week. Her mom sent Jill a lengthy text outlining all of her problems and ending with, “you guys don't really know how I'm hurting,” and the implication was, “you don't know--or care.” This was understandably hurtful to Jill. Jill's about the most awesome daughter any mother could have. Jill wanted to clear the air and tell her mom how she'd felt, rather than keeping her negative feedback hidden. Her mom clearly felt lonely, so when Jill saw her in person, she said something along these lines: “I know you've been struggling, but I felt hurt and discounted when I read your note. I felt like the things I've done didn't matter, and I felt hurt.” Her mom began to cry and said, “the last thing I want you to feel is that I don't appreciate you.” This conversation was challenging, but brought them much closer together. The podcast crew discussed the important question of our mixed motivations about sharing our feelings, and our confusion about how to do this in an effective, loving way, if you do decide to open up. Rhonda confided that she'd never had those kinds of open conversations with either of her parents, and that these kinds of difficult conversations can come from a place of love. You can review the Five Secrets of Effective Communication if you click HERE. The Five Secrets are all about talking with your EAR: E = Empathy, A = Assertiveness, and R = Respect. However, there's a lot of intense resistance to using the Five Secrets, so I promised to include my list of 12 GOOD Reasons NOT to Listen (E = Empathy) Share your feelings (A = Assertiveness) Treat the other person with respect (R = Respect) That makes 36 reasons in all! You can link to the list HERE. People want to feel understood, and the best way to make that happen is by giving what you hope to receive. And you can learn how to listen more skillfully If you read my book, Feeling Good Together, and do the written exercises while reading. You'll learn a ton that can change your life and greatly enhance your relationships with the people you love. Thanks for listening today!! Jill, Rhonda, and David

Special Announcement #1 Attend the Legendary Summer Intensive Featuring Drs. David Burns and Jill Levitt August 8 - 11. 2024 Learn Advanced TEAM-CBT skills Heal yourself, heal your patients First Intensive in 5 years! It will knock your socks off! Limited Seating--Act Fast Click for registration / more information! Sadly, this workshop is a training program which will be limited to therapists and mental health professionals and graduate students in a mental health field  Apologies, but therapists have complained when non-therapists have attended our continuing education training programs. This is partly because of the intimate nature of the small group exercises and the personal work the therapists may do during the workshop. Certified coaches and counselors are welcome to attend. Special Announcement #2 Here's some GREAT news! The Feeling Great App is now available in both app stores (IOS and Android) and is for therapists and the general public, and you can take a ride for free! Check it Today's Ask David Podcast We have lots of great questions today. The answers in the show notes were written prior to the podcast, and the answers in the live podcast as we discussed these questions may differ somewhat or amplify the written materials in these show notes. We love your questions. Remember to send them to David@feelinggood.com. Ask David Questions for Today Bosley asks: My father can be very critical of my plans for the future. What's the best way to respond to him? Willie asks: I have a dating questions. Why do women keep ghosting me? Should they be more willing to work out differences with the Five Secrets of Communication? 1. Bosley asks: My father can be very critical of my plans for the future. What's the best way to respond to him? "To explain somewhat concisely, I just want to move to the nearest major city (Seattle) since I feel really really happy there. I also love volunteering for a specific organization and have some community there that I care about, and I feel very isolated having been away from for months. I'm willing to carry the load of all the work I would need to do to make it happen, and do a business training my dad wants me to complete. He has other thoughts. He looks down on volunteering and his thoughts on friends are simply that I can make new ones anyway. He is very aggressive and intimidating in his arguments, full of insults and many factually incorrect statements that are difficult to disarm on the fly. He shoots down the idea upon mention, so it's difficult to collaborate to find mutually beneficial solutions. He is a successful businessman, despite recent financial issues, and has a sort of strict plan for me that he has wanted me to follow, although I really don't feel this conflicts with his goals to have me run things in the future. I'm just worried since he has a long past of being emotionally abusive and of going back on his word. Plus, I just want some autonomy. In the end, it's his way or the highway. He says “You keep scheming and going down a twisted path instead of doing what I tell you.” David's reply I suggested he might complete the first four steps of the Relationship Journal so we could see how he's communicating with his dad. Here is Bosley's partially partially completed Relationship Journal (showing steps 1 to 4, but not 5.)   Step 1 – S/he said: Write down exactly what the other person said. Be brief: You keep scheming and going down a twisted path instead of doing what I tell you! Step 2 – I said: Write down exactly what you said next. Be brief: What? Circle or bold the emotions S/HE might have been feeling Circle or bold the emotions YOU were feeling Sad, blue, depressed, down, unhappy Sad, blue, depressed, down, unhappy Anxious, worried, panicky, nervous, frightened Anxious, worried, panicky, nervous, frightened Guilty, remorseful, bad, ashamed Guilty, remorseful, bad, ashamed Inferior, worthless, inadequate, defective, incompetent Inferior, worthless, inadequate, defective, incompetent Lonely, unloved, unwanted, rejected, alone, abandoned Lonely, unloved, unwanted, rejected, alone, abandoned Embarrassed, foolish, humiliated, self-conscious Embarrassed, foolish, humiliated, self-conscious Hopeless, discouraged, pessimistic, despairing Hopeless, discouraged, pessimistic, despairing Frustrated, stuck, thwarted, defeated Frustrated, stuck, thwarted, defeated Angry, mad, resentful, annoyed, irritated, upset, furious Angry, mad, resentful, annoyed, irritated, upset, furious Other (specify) Other (specify)   Step 3 – Good Vs. Bad Communication: Was your response an example of good or bad communication? Use the EAR Checklist to analyze what you wrote down in Step 2 Step 4 – Consequences: Did your response in Step 2 make the problem better or worse? Why? It probably made things worse. I came off dismissive, which probably confirmed for him that I automatically ignored any advice or direction that he gave me. I wasn't assertive in fear of escalating anger or just being shut down anyway, but that also maintains the status quo. I didn't, and typically don't, show a caring respectful attitude. This, I think, allows his anger to continue snowballing into more intensity. 2. Willie asks why women he's dating “ghost” him instead of working out the problems in the relationship using the techniques in your book, Feeling Good Together. Good morning, Dr. Burns! I hope you are doing well! I want to start off by saying that I love your books and they've played a massive role in changing my personality for the better. However, there is a question I struggle with. In feeling good together, you say that one can keep status quo, solve their problem, or walk away from a relationship. I lean very strongly on the side of always wanting to solve problems. However, at my age, most of girls I date err on the side of just walking away and this opens me up for unnecessary headache and pain. I don't know where to draw the line? My heart says that any two reasonable adults can always make a relationship work given that at least one wants to make things better and, unfortunately, this does not seem to be the case in my experiences. Your insight would be greatly appreciated! Thank you for taking the time! Best Regards, Willie David's reply Thank you, Willie, I'd love to use this as an Ask David question for one of the podcasts, if that's okay, using your first name or a fake name if you prefer. Here's the super short answer. I wrote a book on that exact topic called Intimate Connections. Essentially you probably need to learn a little more about how to “play the game” when dating. You'll see what this means when you read the book. Warmly, david Willie's Response: Good morning, Dr. Burns! Frankly, I was not expecting a response at all, much less as quick as it was. For this, I truly want to thank you for taking the time to do so. Secondly, it will be my honor if you do bring it up to your podcast. Please don't use my first name - I'd prefer staying anonymous. Please do let me know which podcast this will be so I can give it a listen as well. Lastly, thank you so much for referring me to your book. That will be my next read so I am super excited. If you have any other books which you believe are worth reading which will be beneficial in the dating world, corporate world, etc., please point me to those. I absolutely love your books and their effects on me have been immeasurable. Thank you! Willie I wrote back and suggested we could use the fake name Willie, as he wanted to remain anonymous, and he responded: Now that you say, Willie is definitely sexier! Question: when are you planning on doing the next episode with this question in it? I wouldn't want to miss it.   Here was my response to “Willie.” We'll just read your question, and then provide opinions. My career in private practice has a majority of single individuals who were trying unsuccessfully to connect in the dating world. That's why I wrote that book, which is intensely personal as I was the biggest loser of all for a long time because I was a minister's son and never learned how to “play the game” or be a “bad boy.” But I learned from a friend who was a “hustler” when I was in medical school. I learned a tremendous amount, including that there is a game-playing phase in dating, and a time to be more serious, open and vulnerable. The biggest mistake men make is trying to get too serious when they should be playing the game. What's the game? Well, you'd know if you ever had or loved a cat. If you chase them enthusiastically, you force them to run away. You have to learn how to make them chase you. Many men are stubborn about this, and lamely insist, “But I shouldn't have to play the game!” My answer would be, “You don't! Especially if you don't want to get laid and have lots of ladies chasing you!” Warmly, david Willie's response This is extremely valuable to me. I never knew that you come from a religious background and I do too so I do want to ask you some more questions / share my experience. One pattern I am noticing is that either Muslim ladies have a lot of religious trauma or they have very strict conservative values - usually a combination of both. In the modern world, I try using dating apps and might get matched with someone 2-3 states away so usually we would hop on a FaceTime and the topic of religion almost always comes up. And, due to differing opinions, they just walk away which deeply upsets me because they make the false assumption that humans are snapshots in time i.e., opinions / perspectives don't change. In fact, a personal experience I would like to share with you. I was in a relationship for 1.5 yrs (long distance) and it just ended 1-2 months ago. Our intention was always to get married. However, a few weeks before breaking up with me, she basically said "oh you don't pray and I cannot even imagine my future husband not praying etc etc" and she ended things with me on that. I even tried using the 5 methods of effective communication to acknowledge and validate her opinions while simultaneously sharing mine but she was dead set and did not even want to think about working on problems. How could I "play the game" in such instances or over long distances?   David's response Hi Willie, The principles of dating are the same in all cultures for the most part, and one rule is “Never chase a distancer.” So, when she switches to religion, you could use the listen skills subset of the Five Secrets, and buy in to what she's saying, WITHOUT arguing or presenting your own thinking. You can admire her, urge her to tell you more about her religious feelings and spiritual life, using liberal Thought and Feeling Empathy, and lots of Disarming Techniques, and Stroking, with Gentle Inquiry. You would NOT chase, or try to persuade, or argue, or defend yourself. Be totally admiring and other-centered at those times. If she says she wants to break up, you might say that you've been sensing some distance, and are relieved that she is doing that, because you, too, would like to date other women, but that the two of you can still be friends if she promises not to get romantically involved with you, and that you will be on the lookout for some really great guys she might want to date. This is a paradoxical approach, and it is an art form. And I can also tell you to date other women immediately, and the moment you find one you like better than her, she will find out, even if no one tells her, and she will likely want you back again. That's because of the Burns rule, which states: “People NEVER want what they CAN have; they ONLY want they CAN'T have!” Now, if you tell me this approach is phony, I would tell you that you're 200% right! And it's not only incredibly phony, it's amazingly effective! And a kinder word that “phony” might be to say that when someone starts pulling away, you have to switch into this style and strategic approach, and stop trying to be loving and sincere or logical, etc. Do NOT chase, simply open your hands and let go. It's the exact same strategy you might use to get close to a cat! Best, david Hi Willie, If you'd like, you can send me an example of what one of the Muslim ladies said to you, and exactly what you said next. Please select an interaction that didn't go well. Then I can analyze your response and suggest some alternative ways to respond in a dating situation. In fact, if you like, you can record it on the Relationship Journal that I've attached. Please fill in steps 1 through 4. Please do this right away as we record tomorrow. Best, david   Hi Dr. Burns, I cannot even tell you how much these emails are already changing my outlook. I truly want to thank you for taking the time and responding to these. One thing that caught my eye is the paradoxical approach. I never thought about it. In my mind, I feel you should work on relationships / never let go but if letting go is working on it, then that is something I really need to do. I am attaching two copies of the Relationship journal. One dealing with the topic of drugs and one with prayer. One thing I will tell you is that I usually bring these topics up myself because, in my mind, I don't want to deceive anyone and get these big topics out of the way as early on as I can and I think I am making a mistake somewhere here. Thank you, again, for taking the time and responding to these emails! Looking forward to what you think about the topics of conflict I have been having! Best Willie

Special Announcement #1 Attend the Legendary Summer Intensive Featuring Drs. David Burns and Jill Levitt August 8 - 11. 2024 Learn Advanced TEAM-CBT skills Heal yourself, heal your patients First Intensive in 5 years! It will knock your socks off! Limited Seating--Act Fast Click for registration / more information! Sadly, this workshop is a training program which will be limited to therapists and mental health professionals and graduate students in a mental health field  Apologies, but therapists have complained when non-therapists have attended our continuing education training programs. This is partly because of the intimate nature of the small group exercises and the personal work the therapists may do during the workshop. Certified coaches and counselors are welcome to attend. Special Announcement #2 Here's some GREAT news! The Feeling Great App is now available in both app stores (IOS and Android) and is for therapists and the general public, and you can take a ride for free! Check it Today's Ask David Podcast We have lots of great questions today. The answers in the show notes were written prior to the podcast, and the answers in the live podcast as we discussed these questions may differ somewhat or amplify the written materials in these show notes. We love your questions. Remember to send them to David@feelinggood.com. Ask David Questions for Today Bosley asks: My father can be very critical of my plans for the future. What's the best way to respond to him? Willie asks: I have a dating questions. Why do women keep ghosting me? Should they be more willing to work out differences with the Five Secrets of Communication? Marc asks: In your book, When Panic Attacks, you mentioned that sometimes people feel “trapped.” What should you do when you're struggling with this feeling?   1. Bosley asks: My father can be very critical of my plans for the future. What's the best way to respond to him? "To explain somewhat concisely, I just want to move to the nearest major city (Seattle) since I feel really really happy there. I also love volunteering for a specific organization and have some community there that I care about, and I feel very isolated having been away from for months. I'm willing to carry the load of all the work I would need to do to make it happen, and do a business training my dad wants me to complete. He has other thoughts. He looks down on volunteering and his thoughts on friends are simply that I can make new ones anyway. He is very aggressive and intimidating in his arguments, full of insults and many factually incorrect statements that are difficult to disarm on the fly. He shoots down the idea upon mention, so it's difficult to collaborate to find mutually beneficial solutions. He is a successful businessman, despite recent financial issues, and has a sort of strict plan for me that he has wanted me to follow, although I really don't feel this conflicts with his goals to have me run things in the future. I'm just worried since he has a long past of being emotionally abusive and of going back on his word. Plus, I just want some autonomy. In the end, it's his way or the highway. He says “You keep scheming and going down a twisted path instead of doing what I tell you.” David's reply I suggested he might complete the first four steps of the Relationship Journal so we could see how he's communicating with his dad. Here is Bosley's partially partially completed Relationship Journal (showing steps 1 to 4, but not 5.)   Step 1 – S/he said: Write down exactly what the other person said. Be brief: You keep scheming and going down a twisted path instead of doing what I tell you! Step 2 – I said: Write down exactly what you said next. Be brief: What? Circle or bold the emotions S/HE might have been feeling Circle or bold the emotions YOU were feeling Sad, blue, depressed, down, unhappy Sad, blue, depressed, down, unhappy Anxious, worried, panicky, nervous, frightened Anxious, worried, panicky, nervous, frightened Guilty, remorseful, bad, ashamed Guilty, remorseful, bad, ashamed Inferior, worthless, inadequate, defective, incompetent Inferior, worthless, inadequate, defective, incompetent Lonely, unloved, unwanted, rejected, alone, abandoned Lonely, unloved, unwanted, rejected, alone, abandoned Embarrassed, foolish, humiliated, self-conscious Embarrassed, foolish, humiliated, self-conscious Hopeless, discouraged, pessimistic, despairing Hopeless, discouraged, pessimistic, despairing Frustrated, stuck, thwarted, defeated Frustrated, stuck, thwarted, defeated Angry, mad, resentful, annoyed, irritated, upset, furious Angry, mad, resentful, annoyed, irritated, upset, furious Other (specify) Other (specify)   Step 3 – Good Vs. Bad Communication: Was your response an example of good or bad communication? Use the EAR Checklist to analyze what you wrote down in Step 2 Step 4 – Consequences: Did your response in Step 2 make the problem better or worse? Why? It probably made things worse. I came off dismissive, which probably confirmed for him that I automatically ignored any advice or direction that he gave me. I wasn't assertive in fear of escalating anger or just being shut down anyway, but that also maintains the status quo. I didn't, and typically don't, show a caring respectful attitude. This, I think, allows his anger to continue snowballing into more intensity. 2. Willie asks why women he's dating “ghost” him instead of working out the problems in the relationship using the techniques in your book, Feeling Good Together. Good morning, Dr. Burns! I hope you are doing well! I want to start off by saying that I love your books and they've played a massive role in changing my personality for the better. However, there is a question I struggle with. In feeling good together, you say that one can keep status quo, solve their problem, or walk away from a relationship. I lean very strongly on the side of always wanting to solve problems. However, at my age, most of girls I date err on the side of just walking away and this opens me up for unnecessary headache and pain. I don't know where to draw the line? My heart says that any two reasonable adults can always make a relationship work given that at least one wants to make things better and, unfortunately, this does not seem to be the case in my experiences. Your insight would be greatly appreciated! Thank you for taking the time! Best Regards, Willie David's reply Thank you, Willie, I'd love to use this as an Ask David question for one of the podcasts, if that's okay, using your first name or a fake name if you prefer. Here's the super short answer. I wrote a book on that exact topic called Intimate Connections. Essentially you probably need to learn a little more about how to “play the game” when dating. You'll see what this means when you read the book. Warmly, david Willie's Response: Good morning, Dr. Burns! Frankly, I was not expecting a response at all, much less as quick as it was. For this, I truly want to thank you for taking the time to do so. Secondly, it will be my honor if you do bring it up to your podcast. Please don't use my first name - I'd prefer staying anonymous. Please do let me know which podcast this will be so I can give it a listen as well. Lastly, thank you so much for referring me to your book. That will be my next read so I am super excited. If you have any other books which you believe are worth reading which will be beneficial in the dating world, corporate world, etc., please point me to those. I absolutely love your books and their effects on me have been immeasurable. Thank you! Willie I wrote back and suggested we could use the fake name Willie, as he wanted to remain anonymous, and he responded: Now that you say, Willie is definitely sexier! Question: when are you planning on doing the next episode with this question in it? I wouldn't want to miss it.   Here was my response to “Willie.” We'll just read your question, and then provide opinions. My career in private practice has a majority of single individuals who were trying unsuccessfully to connect in the dating world. That's why I wrote that book, which is intensely personal as I was the biggest loser of all for a long time because I was a minister's son and never learned how to “play the game” or be a “bad boy.” But I learned from a friend who was a “hustler” when I was in medical school. I learned a tremendous amount, including that there is a game-playing phase in dating, and a time to be more serious, open and vulnerable. The biggest mistake men make is trying to get too serious when they should be playing the game. What's the game? Well, you'd know if you ever had or loved a cat. If you chase them enthusiastically, you force them to run away. You have to learn how to make them chase you. Many men are stubborn about this, and lamely insist, “But I shouldn't have to play the game!” My answer would be, “You don't! Especially if you don't want to get laid and have lots of ladies chasing you!” Warmly, david   Willie's response This is extremely valuable to me. I never knew that you come from a religious background and I do too so I do want to ask you some more questions / share my experience. One pattern I am noticing is that either Muslim ladies have a lot of religious trauma or they have very strict conservative values - usually a combination of both. In the modern world, I try using dating apps and might get matched with someone 2-3 states away so usually we would hop on a FaceTime and the topic of religion almost always comes up. And, due to differing opinions, they just walk away which deeply upsets me because they make the false assumption that humans are snapshots in time i.e., opinions / perspectives don't change. In fact, a personal experience I would like to share with you. I was in a relationship for 1.5 yrs (long distance) and it just ended 1-2 months ago. Our intention was always to get married. However, a few weeks before breaking up with me, she basically said "oh you don't pray and I cannot even imagine my future husband not praying etc etc" and she ended things with me on that. I even tried using the 5 methods of effective communication to acknowledge and validate her opinions while simultaneously sharing mine but she was dead set and did not even want to think about working on problems. How could I "play the game" in such instances or over long distances?   David's response Hi Willie, The principles of dating are the same in all cultures for the most part, and one rule is “Never chase a distancer.” So, when she switches to religion, you could use the listen skills subset of the Five Secrets, and buy in to what she's saying, WITHOUT arguing or presenting your own thinking. You can admire her, urge her to tell you more about her religious feelings and spiritual life, using liberal Thought and Feeling Empathy, and lots of Disarming Techniques, and Stroking, with Gentle Inquiry. You would NOT chase, or try to persuade, or argue, or defend yourself. Be totally admiring and other-centered at those times. If she says she wants to break up, you might say that you've been sensing some distance, and are relieved that she is doing that, because you, too, would like to date other women, but that the two of you can still be friends if she promises not to get romantically involved with you, and that you will be on the lookout for some really great guys she might want to date. This is a paradoxical approach, and it is an art form. And I can also tell you to date other women immediately, and the moment you find one you like better than her, she will find out, even if no one tells her, and she will likely want you back again. That's because of the Burns rule, which states: “People NEVER want what they CAN have; they ONLY want they CAN'T have!” Now, if you tell me this approach is phony, I would tell you that you're 200% right! And it's not only incredibly phony, it's amazingly effective! And a kinder word that “phony” might be to say that when someone starts pulling away, you have to switch into this style and strategic approach, and stop trying to be loving and sincere or logical, etc. Do NOT chase, simply open your hands and let go. It's the exact same strategy you might use to get close to a cat! Best, david Hi Willie, If you'd like, you can send me an example of what one of the Muslim ladies said to you, and exactly what you said next. Please select an interaction that didn't go well. Then I can analyze your response and suggest some alternative ways to respond in a dating situation. In fact, if you like, you can record it on the Relationship Journal that I've attached. Please fill in steps 1 through 4. Please do this right away as we record tomorrow. Best, david   Hi Dr. Burns, I cannot even tell you how much these emails are already changing my outlook. I truly want to thank you for taking the time and responding to these. One thing that caught my eye is the paradoxical approach. I never thought about it. In my mind, I feel you should work on relationships / never let go but if letting go is working on it, then that is something I really need to do. I am attaching two copies of the Relationship journal. One dealing with the topic of drugs and one with prayer. One thing I will tell you is that I usually bring these topics up myself because, in my mind, I don't want to deceive anyone and get these big topics out of the way as early on as I can and I think I am making a mistake somewhere here. Thank you, again, for taking the time and responding to these emails! Looking forward to what you think about the topics of conflict I have been having! Best Willie

Ask David, Rhonda and Matt Assertiveness, Suppressing your Feelings, and the "Miracle Cure" question Questions for today's Ask David podcast. Chris asks if I have a book about assertiveness. Brian asks: Is there anything to the theory that "suppressing emotions" is harmful or is that just Freudian mumbo jumbo? Matt asks about the “Miracle Cure” question in the Assessment of Resistance portion of a TEAM therapy session. Rhonda began with a lovely endorsement and a cool reminder of the classic book, Robinson Crusoe, who created cognitive therapy (the double column technique) when he was stranded on a deserted island! I believe I wrote about it in one of my books, possibly Feeling Good. It's pretty cool! You will hear Matt playing the role of the “evil” thoughts, like, “I am stranded alone on a deserted island,” and Rhonda will play the role of the “good” thoughts, like, “Yes, but my life was spared, and all of my shipmates died.” Here's what it looks like in the novel: Evil. Good. I am cast upon a horrible, desolate island, void of all hope of recovery.     But I am alive; and not drowned, as all my ship's company were. I am singled out and separated, as it were, from all the world, to be miserable.     But I am singled out, too, from all the ship's crew, to be spared from death; and He that miraculously saved me from death can deliver me from this condition. I am divided from mankind—a solitaire; one banished from human society.     But I am not starved, and perishing on a barren place, affording no sustenance. I have no clothes to cover me.     But I am in a hot climate, where, if I had clothes, I could hardly wear them. I am without any defence, or means to resist any violence of man or beast.     But I am cast on an island where I see no wild beasts to hurt me, as I saw on the coast of Africa; and what if I had been shipwrecked there? I have no soul to speak to or relieve me.     But God wonderfully sent the ship in near enough to the shore, that I have got out as many necessary things as will either supply my wants or enable me to supply myself, even as long as I live. I know this novel is a couple hundred years old, so it certainly deserves nomination of the earliest cognitive therapy! Now, for the answers to today's Ask David questions. Keep in mind that these answers were written BEFORE today's recording, so the actual live answers will differ in some regards from the written answers below.   1. Chris asks if I have a book about assertiveness. Hi Dr. Burns, I hope you're doing well. Do you have a book on assertiveness training? I've used your books to help me with my hidden "should" statements, which has enabled me to be less angry or anxious whenever someone treats me less than satisfactorily. While this has helped immensely, I realize it's still in my interest to reduce the behavior I disagree with. For example, my sibling scheduled an early morning shift after I had a long day of work. Because they can't drive, they expect me to take them to work, which means I'll only get about 5 hours of sleep; this in itself isn't a bad thing... except this is the 3rd time in a row they've done this. After using your techniques, I'm less angry and anxious, but I still want to address the behavior to reduce the likelihood that they do something like this again, which is why I'm reaching out. Thanks for your help. Kind regards, Chris David's Reply Sure. I like my own book, Feeling Good Together, and have often recommended Manuel Smith's When I Say NO I Feel Guilty. There is a LOT to be said about assertiveness training, including the fact that it doesn't always work! I can give a great personal account of that! Sometimes, or always, skillful listening is also effective. Assertiveness without listening makes it sound like only your own feelings are important, which is obviously pretty self-centered. One of the most helpful things to me is the difference between healthy and unhealthy anger, and how to express tough messages in a loving, respectful way. Can discuss more on the show. For example, what are the problems with the assertiveness movement? And where can it be helpful? And what mistakes do unassertive individuals make when trying to be more assertive? Do they sometimes overdo it? Warmly, david   2. Brian asks: Is there anything to the theory that "suppressing emotions" is harmful or is that just Freudian mumbo jumbo? Thanks!! David's reply. Thanks, Brian. Great question! You can listen to the podcasts on the Hidden Emotion Technique, or read about it in my book, When Panic Attacks. Will make this an Ask David question if that's okay!   3. Matt asks about the “Miracle Cure” question in the Assessment of Resistance portion of a TEAM therapy session. Hi David, I've noticed that when I ask the 'miracle cure' question or 'magic wand' question, I'll sometimes get a response that isn't all that useful and I might waste time trying to figure out what the person is really asking for. An example might be, 'I want to be able to support and understand my husband, who is addicted to video games and spends a lot of our money on games'. I've found it helpful, in such situations, to ask, 'let's imagine you could achieve that goal, you were perfectly understanding and supportive, at all times, of your husband, who is addicted to video games and spends a lot of your money on games...what would change, in your life, if all your dreams came true?' I think this might help in a lot of cases where the agenda is a bit fuzzy and unclear. Wishing you the best! Matt   David's response Matt and I exchanged several emails we'll discuss on the podcast. Essentially, I don't think this woman is asking for understanding why her husband is addicted to video games and spends money on them. Instead, she is secretly blaming him and is probably angry with him for not spending time with her! She wants to change him. Matt agreed with this and has proposed a new tool therapists can use when setting the agenda. I, David, also raised the problem of “hearing the music” behind the patient's words. This is incredibly important—but hard for therapists to learn—when using the Disarming Technique. They have a tendency to agree with the patient's words in a literal way without “hearing” what the patient is really trying to say. If you use any form of therapy literally, with really grasping the patient's feelings, your treatment will not be effective or helpful. There is a human art to therapy, and following rigid formulas simply won't come across as compassionate or genuine most of the time. That's why I am dubious about testing different therapies with outcome studies with human therapists. You are actually testing the impact of a miscellaneous group of therapists with potentially widely divergent skill sets. This is one of the many reasons why psychotherapy outcome studies for depression all come out about the same—somewhat better than placebos, but not much better. And there's been no one winner when using human therapists. Dr. Paul Crits-Christoph from the University of Pennsylvania Department of Psychology once published a study showing that the differences between therapists within each arm of an outcome study were grater than the differences between the two schools of therapy! That's why I've been so excited about analyzing data from our beta tests with the Feeling Great App. Each “patient” gets the exact same shrink! This makes the “dose” of the TEAM done by the computer the same for each patient, much like an outcome study of a medication. TEAM is a actually series of metaphors! If you don't “get” the metaphors, and try to apply TEAM in an overly literal way, you'll have a lot of trouble learning TEAM! David   Matt's Musings: David is incredibly gifted when it comes to ‘hearing the music' behind what folks are saying, verbally. I suspect this is partially an innate gift, like someone who's a prodigy at math, only for emotional states and understanding people. After years of practice, I'm not quite as good as David. However, I think there were specific forms of experience that helped me improve my skill ‘hearing the music'. In addition to using measurement and processing feedback with my patients, one thing that helped me a lot was using a lot of ‘uncovering techniques'. These include the ‘What If' technique, to expose hidden fears, the ‘Individual Downward Arrow', to expose hidden insecurities, the ‘Interpersonal Downward Arrow', to expose hidden assumptions about how we ‘should' act in our relationships. Seeing several thousand of these has helped me with ‘pattern recognition', which I think is related to ‘hearing the music'. I'm proposing that beginning therapists might also benefit from an ‘Uncovering Technique' for agenda-setting, following the ‘Miracle Cure Question', which keeps asking, ok, let's say you got that, what would you hope for, if you got absolutely everything you wanted? Ok, and let's say you also got that, what would you hope for, in your wildest dreams? This might expose hidden agendas which can be super important if we want to be able to anticipate resistance and identify the ‘cost of recovery'. Thanks for listening today! Rhonda, Matt, and David

Today's special guest, Brittany. Podcast 375. I'm Struggling! Ask David Live: a New Podcast Twist We start today's podcast with a visit from Dr. Jacob Towery. You might recall that one year ago he offered an amazing and (almost) totally free two-day workshop for shrinks and the general public on overcoming social anxiety. Roughly 90 people attended, and it was a huge success. The only “cost” was a $20 contribution to a charity of your choice, including Doctors Without Borders and several others. Dr. Jacob Towery This year, Dr. Towery will be repeating this incredible program on March 16 and 17, 2024, which will be on a Saturday and Sunday, in Palo Alto. Once again, the title will be “Finding Humans Less Scary.” Jacob and Michael Luo will lead the program and will be assisted by 10 - 20 expert therapists who will lead the break-out groups. Last year, people described the program as “transformative” and “life-changing.” Social anxiety can have a significant impact on your life, so you owe it to yourself to attend if you or a loved one has struggled with any of the five common forms of social anxiety:Shy Bladder Syndrome Shyness in social situations Public Speaking Anxiety Performance Anxiety Test Anxiety You'll learn and practice tons of awesome anxiety-busting techniques, including Smile and Hello Practice, Flirting Training, Rejection Practice, Talk Show Host, Shame-Attacking Exercises, and much more. Social anxiety rarely exists alone, but is nearly always associated with other mood problems, such as loneliness, shame, depression, and substance misuse with alcohol and benzodiazepine pills to try to combat the symptoms, to name just a few. How do you sign up? It's easy! Just go to FindingHumansLessScary.com If you attend, let us know how it worked out for you, what you learned, and how you grew. Thanks so much, Jacob, for making this kind of world-class experience available to everyone who's looking for some help, and some wild, life-changing and zany fun in March! Brittany, an enthusiastic podcast fan, asked for help with a conflict with her husband. She wrote: Hi Dr. Burns, I'm struggling a bit. My husband reads a ton of articles and feels that the media has been portraying a lot of the current events incorrectly, especially the horrifying Israel/Palestine conflict. He is extremely frustrated by this and has become depressed because none of his friends or family seems to want to talk about it. He says he feels alone & isolated. I have never been much into politics, abd I don't know enough to have a real opinion on things to say who is right. I try to be a good listener to whatever he says. For example, I may say “yeah, that sounds really frustrating,” and then I agree with what he says. But I'm obviously doing a bad job at the empathy because he says the support he gets from me is not satisfactory at all. Sometimes I feel like a parrot, just repeating back what he says. I think you had an example before on an Ask David where you showed how to empathize with someone who says how awful everyone is and how awful all the liberals are. Something like that. But I can't find it. When I empathize my husband says I just don't get it and nobody is doing anything to help these innocent people who are being attacked, and he says that I am not doing anything either. I'm at a loss on how to reply? Maybe you could do an example on an Ask David. Sorry for the long message. - Brittany Hi Brittany, Sorry you're struggling, this is a common but important problem. Yes, we can and will do that. Can you give me an example of something he says to you, and exactly what you say next? You can use the attached Relationship Journal I you like. Try to complete steps 1 and 2 at least, and mail back to me ASAP. Lots of people with this problem these days, so could be great ASK D question. Weren't you on the show live once a few years back? I know you've sent us some great questions. I'm thinking MAYBE you could join and practice with us, using your example. Do you have / have you read my book, Feeling Good Together? Best, david It turned out that Brittany was eager and willing to join us live on today's podcast . This is kind of an experimental podcast where we not only respond to a great question by one of our fans, but actually invite that person to get our “expert” help in real time and live on a podcast. You can let us know if you like this format. To get us started, Brittany sent us an example of a Relationship Journal she had prepared. I thought this was really well done, and gave her revised version a grade of A-, which is way better than most people can do. I sent her an email saying that she could probably add more acknowledgement of his feelings and her feelings, like feeling alone and hurt and a bit lonely, and also a bit more Stroking, like "I want you to know how much I love you, and how special you are to me. And that's why it's so had for me to realize that I've really been letting you down." We practiced with Brittany using my Intimacy Drill, which you'll hear on the podcast. Essentially, one of us would play the role of Brittany's husband, and we would say something she wanted help responding to, and she used the Five Secrets to respond. Then Rhonda, Matt and David gave her an overall grade (from A to F), along with fine tuning suggestions, emphasizing what she did that was especially effective and if there were any changes that might make her excellent responses even better. Then we did role reversals so we could demonstrate ow we might respond, followed by additional role plays until she was satisfied with her response. Five Secrets of Effective Communication This approach is called "Deliberate Practice" and it is by FAR the best way to master the Five Secrets so you can use them successfully in real time. We also discussed her concern that at home she'd been feeling like "a parrot" when she tried the Five Secrets. That is always caused by the absence of "I Feel" Statements in your statements, and we modelled how to correct this error. One of the biggest problems in the way people communicate during a conflict or argument is defensiveness, and given in the urge to argue and defend your territory, so to speak. Matt explained that this nearly always results from thinking you have a "self" that you have to defend. Another common Five Secrets error is the failure to acknowledge the other person's anger. Therapists and the general public nearly always make this error, because of a mindset I call "anger phobia" or "conflict phobia." However, Brittany did really beautiful work during the podcast exercises, as you'll see when you listen. We (the so-called "experts") also practiced what we preached and took turns responding to criticisms, which is always fun and challenging, and often humbling when we goof up! Let us know what you think about this new format of having someone who asks a question actually appear live on the podcast so you can actually learn through practice while we answer your question. Thanks for listening today, and thank you Brittany for blazing new trails on our podcasting adventure! Brittany, Rhonda, Matt, and David

Ask David: Burn Out; When Challenging Thoughts Doesn't Work; and more! Featuring Dr. Matthew May In today's podcast, Matt, Rhonda and David discuss four challenging questions from podcast fans like you: 1. Joseph asks if it's okay to take a break when you get “burned out.” Below, David expands on this and describes the difference between “healthy” and “unhealthy burnout.” 2. Joseph also asks why your feelings might not change when you challenge your negative thought with a positive thought that's 100% true. 3. Dan asks about Step 4 of the Relationship Journal, which is the most difficult and important step in the TEAM interpersonal model—see exactly how you're forcefully causing and reinforcing the very relationship problem you're complaining about. For example, if the person doesn't “listen,” you'll see that you're forcing them not to listen. If she or he doesn't open up and express feelings, you'll see that you prevent them from opening up. And if you think your partner doesn't treat you in a loving and respectful way, you'll suddenly see exactly why this is happening—if you have the courage to take look and see: But if fact, this is one of the “Great Deaths” of the “self” in TEAM-CBT, and very few folks are willing to “die” in this way. 4. Finally, Clay asks about EMDR. He's been treated with it without success. David and Matt weigh in with their thoughts about EMDR. This question was not addressed on the podcast, since some practitioners of EMDR might be offended by David and Matt's thinking, but they did describe their thoughts in the show notes below. If you are an EMDR enthusiast, you might prefer NOT to read our comments. Joseph writes: Thanks, David, for sharing so much on the podcasts! I have a couple questions. Personally, I find that when I'm burnt out, I get a lot more anxious automatic thoughts. While it's definitely good to combat these distorted thoughts by replacing them with realistic ones, my takeaway is that it's also sometimes wise to change our lives / circumstances (e.g. to take a break). By the way, I also wanted to ask if you've ever faced a situation where you are convinced that a thought is distorted and irrational (and you know what the realistic thought is), but you still can't shake it off? I sometimes get stuck when I already know the "right answer" (ie. what the realistic thoughts are based on the methods you've taught), but I just can't seem to get my brain to fully believe it. For example, I was recently on vacation and a small blip made me think "my vacation is ruined!". I immediately identified it as all-or-nothing thinking, and replaced it with "my vacation is still going very well even if it's not perfect" (and I'm convinced this thought is true), but somehow my mind kept going back to the automatic thought again and again. Curious if you've ever experienced this. Thanks again so much for your time and your teaching; just wanted to say I really appreciate it! :) Regards Joseph David's Reply to Joseph. Thanks for the great questions. We address both of them on an upcoming podcast. Here's the quick response. Yes, it is okay to take a break when you feel “burned out.” However, you can get “burned out” in a healthy or unhealthy way. For example, after I edit for two or three hours, which I love, my brain gets “burned out.” So I take a break and come back later, maybe even a day later, and I feel refreshed and filled with enthusiasm about writing and editing some more, because I love these activities. When I was in private practice in Philadelphia, I saw 17 patients back to back on Wednesdays. That way, I could have a three day weekend. Actually, I loved it and as the day went on, I got higher and higher. At the end I was exhausted, but exhilarated. I was never “burned out” because I loved what I was doing, and the clinical work was SO rewarding! However, sometimes I made a mistake and a patient would get very upset, sometimes angry with me, or felt hurt. THAT was when I got suddenly burned out and exhausted. But it wasn't because of my work, or the conflict, but rather my thoughts about it, which generally involved a combination of self criticism and frustration with the patient, both the result of distorted thoughts, generally Self-Directed and Other-Directed Should Statements. And THAT kind of “burned out” won't improve with a break. The answer is challenging and changing your own inner dialogue, as well as your dialogue with the other person, using the “failure” in the relationship as an opportunity to listen and support and create a deeper and more meaningful relationship. With regard to your second excellent question, we explored that in depth in the podcast, and also made it a problem for our listeners to think about. So tune in for the answers! This is a popular question I've been answering for more than 40 years, and the answers tell us a great deal about how cognitive therapy actually works. Thanks so much, Joseph!  Subject: Relationship Journal Gem I Found Dan (a former participant in David and Jill's Tuesday training group at Stanford) writes: Hello to the Dynamic Duo (David and Jill), I came across this doc for Step 4 of the Relationship Journal, but I don't really understand it and I don't remember the context. I know it was from the Tuesday Group years ago. It says it's about conceptualizing the problem, just not sure how to utilize this in step 4. Thanks. (You will find this document in the show notes below.) ~Dan (Daniel C. Linehan, MSW, LCSW) David's Reply Hi Dan, Great question. In this document, I am trying to make it a bit easier for folks to see how they are triggering the very problem they are complaining about. So, I have listed three categories of common complaints. For example, an Empathy complaint would be that “My partner doesn't listen,” or “always has to be right.” Then you ask, “If I wanted to force my partner to behave like this, how could I so?” Well, one good way would be to interrupt when your partner is trying to talk, or argue and insist your partner is wrong when they're trying to make a point, and so forth. This would force your partner to argue and insist that they are right! It is pretty basic and obvious. But most human beings don't “get it,” and in part that's because a great many don't want to. Blaming the other person seems way more popular than looking at your own role in the problem these days. Good to hear from you on this important topic! People can usually “see” how step 3 of the Relationship Journal works—you simply examine what you wrote down in Step 2, and you can almost always see no E (Empathy), no A (assertively sharing your feelings with “I Feel” Statements, and no R (conveying respect or liking to the other person, even when you're angry.) But most people don't seem to have the natural mental aptitude or the stomach for Step 4, where you go beyond Step 3 and explain EXACTLY how you FORCE the other person to behave in the exact way you're complaining about. The document in the link is an attempt to help people with Step 4—IF you are willing to examine your own role in the problem. In Step 4, you ask yourself what category you see the other person in, and there are three choices to make it fairly simple. You might feel that they don't listen or try to see your point of view. This would be an E = no Empathy complaint. Or you might feel like they can't, or won't, share their feelings. Instead, they might just keep arguing, or they might refuse to open up. This would be an A = no Assertiveness complaint. Or, you might complaint that they don't treat you with warmth, love, or respect. That would be an R = no Respect complaint. This makes it much easier to “see” how your response to the other person in Step 2 actually causes and reinforces the exact behavior you're complaining about. Lots of people get defensive or annoyed at this step of the RJ, and refuse to continue! That's because Step 4 is all about the third “Great Death” of the “self,” or “ego,” in TEAM-CBT. Most of us don't want to “die” in this way. It can feel humiliating, or shameful, to pinpoint your own role in the problem. But, there's usually a big reward—you're suddenly “reborn” into a far more loving and satisfying relationship. In the podcast, brave and wonderful Rhonda provided David and Matt with an example when she was visiting her son and daughter in law in Germany last month to help out with their twin baby girls. This example really brings this “Great Death” to life, and we are grateful to Rhonda for helping us in this very vulnerable and real way! Feel free to ask again if I have not made it clear. To me, this phenomenon of causing the very problems we are complaining about in our relationships with others is incredibly fascinating. However, change involves the “death of the self,” which is painful, because you have to see, usually for the first time, your own role in the problem you're complaining about. It is based on the Buddhist idea that we create our own interpersonal reality at every moment of every day. In other words, we CREATE our enemies, and then whine and complaint about it! Most people don't want to see this! They want the therapist (or friend they're confiding to) to agree that the other person REALLY IS a jerk, or to blame, or whatever. They just want to complain and blame and feel superior! In my book, Feeling Good Together, I think I said something to the effect that we “want to do our dirty work in the dark.” In other words, we don't want to turn the lights on so we can “see” how we're actually causing the conflict. The person asking for help can nearly always be shown to be the 100% cause of the conflict. This technique is one I recommend when working with an individual, and not a couple. Other less confrontational techniques are probably more effective when you are working with both partners at the same time. Warmly, david (David D. Burns, MD) Here's the document: Conceptualizing the Patient's Complaint in Step 4 of the Relationship Journal (RJ) By David D. Burns, MD* Problem Area Specific Complaint—S/he Complaints about the other person's lack of E = Empathy Won't listen Does not understand me Always has to be right  Always criticizes me Constantly complains and ignores my advice Constantly brags and talks about himself / herself Doesn't value my thinking or ideas. Is defensive and argumentative Doesn't care about my feelings. Complaints about the other person's lack of A = Assertiveness Cannot (or will not) express his or her feelings Cannot deal with negative feelings Expects me to read his or her mind Clams up and refuses to talk to me Won't be honest with me pouts and slams doors, insisting s/he isn't mad! won't tell me how she / he is feeling. isn't honest with me. suddenly explodes for no reason, out of the blue. Complaints about the other person's lack of R = Respect Always has to get his or her way Is stubborn Is controlling Does all the taking, while I do all the giving Uses me Puts me down Is judgmental Does not care about me or respect me Only cares about is himself / herself Constantly complains and ignores my advice. Explanation. When you are using the Relationship Journal, you will usually have a complaint about the other person. For example, you may complain that she or he “never listens,” or “is always si critical,” or “constantly complains but never listen to my advice.” If you write down one thing the other person said in Step 1 of the RJ, and exactly what you said in Step 2, you can usually easily analyze your response with the EAR Checklist. That shows what you did wrong, and why your response was ineffective. You can also use the Bad Communication Checklist to pinpoint your communication errors, and some people prefer this format. In Step 4, you go spell out precisely why your response will FORCE the other person to keep doing the exact thing you're complaining about. One easy way to conceptualize the nature of your complaint about the other person is with our convenient EAR algorithm. This document can help you “see” the problem you're complaining about when you do Step 4 of the RJ. That makes it much easier to discover exactly how you are triggering and reinforces the exact problem you're complaining about. LMK what you think! Clay writes: Hello David, I know you no longer practice, but could I please get an opinion from you on EMDR? So far I have done about six sessions of EMDR and I feel worse than when I began. Does one typically feel worse before one feels better with EMDR? I know you are for Team CBT, and I think it has a lot of merit and science behind it! It just seems a little magical to me that by alternately tapping that I am going to resolve traumas or anxiety issues that happened a long time ago and maybe even recently, but I am going into it with an open mind and the possibilities. Best to you and your family, David, and thank you for the revolution in cognitive therapy you started with Aaron Beck and Albert Ellis! Kind regards, Clay Wilson Hi Clay, I've never been an EMDR enthusiast. To me, it's just cognitive exposure, which definitely can have value in anxiety, coupled with “eye jiggling.” Many of it's proponents seem to think that they have found the holy grail, and I have no doubt that a few will slam me for me non-supportive response! And please remember that I'm a cynic, so take it with a grain of salt. In TEAM, we use more than a hundred M = Methods, and only after doing the T, E, A steps, which are absolutely crucial to success in most cases. Best, david PS I'm copying Rhonda and Matt. If we used your question on an Ask David, would you be open to that, with or without your correct first name? Happy to disguise your name. David D. Burns, MD Dear David, I greatly value your ideas and that you are a cynic. In 6 sessions of the EMDR, I have not felt any better. You are absolutely free to use my name and you don't need to disguise it at all. I live in Columbus, Montana and as far as I know, there is only one person in Bozeman who does Team CBT. I sent her an email but didn't hear back but it's 100 miles from us anyway. Thank you very, very much for your view on EMDR! I was thinking something similar myself. All the very best to you and your family! Most Sincerely, Clay David's Response HI Clay, You're welcome. My website is full of free resources, anxiety class, depression class, more than 300 TEAM podcasts, and more. My book, When Panic Attacks, is pretty cheap in paperback. Also, beta testing of thee Feeling Good App is still free. T = Testing, E = Empathy, A = Addressing Resistance, and M = Methods (more than 100.) A is likely the most important step! Thanks, best, david Matt's Response Hi Dan and David, My guess is that EMDR showed some early results due to the tendency of most therapists to avoid exposure techniques and try to 'smooth over' anxious thinking and trauma, rather than just dive in and explore it, fearlessly. I suspect this created a large cohort of anxious and traumatized patients, waiting in the wings, for such treatment, so it showed immediate favorable data. However, this method is only one of dozens, and the setup is key. Why would you want to overcome something traumatic? Wouldn't it be more useful to remember it and avoid anything that resembles it? Meaning, there may be powerful methods, including exposure and (usually) less-effective methods, like 'eye-jiggling' and other distraction techniques out there for anyone, but why bother with these if the symptoms are helpful and appropriate? This is the main idea in TEAM . People recover when they want to recover, not when someone applies the correct methodology. -Matt Hi Dan, David, and Matt:  In addition to being a TEAM therapist, I also practice EMDR.  I find it to be very effective, especially when used within the TEAM structure.  It may not be for everyone, but it's great to have many options for our clients. -Rhonda  David's comment. Yes, and here Matt's is pointing out some of the paradoxical “Outcome Resistance” strategies we use with anxious patients when doing TEAM therapy. We become the voice of the patient's resistance to change, and verbalize all the really positive things about the anxiety symptoms: how they protect us from danger and express our core values as human beings. Paradoxically, this often reduces resistance and opens the door to change. In TEAM, we treat the human being with systematic TEAM therapy. We do not treat symptoms with techniques. The meaning of this may be hard to “see” if you haven't seen or experienced it. But there are a large number of actual therapy sessions your can listen to in the podcasts. Best, David Thanks for asking such terrific questions and for listening! We all greatly appreciate your support. Keep your questions and comments (negative as well as positive) coming! Rhonda, Matt, and David

355: Relationship Problems: Be Gone! Featuring Dr. Matthew May In today's podcast, Matt, Rhonda and David discuss relationship problems, and how to overcome them. We also give instructions on the Paradoxical Invitation, one of the most important and difficult techniques for TEAM-CBT therapists to learn. We started today's podcast interviewing Tania Ahern and Andy Persson who give a plug for the upcoming TEAM-CBT intensive from August 14 to 17, 2023 in Bristol, and incredible British city with an outstanding TEAM-CBT training program in store for you. Many notable TEAM experts will be presenting, including Drs. Leigh Harrington, Heather Clague, Marius Wirga, Stirling Moorey, Mike Christensen and many other notable teachers.  Special thanks to Peter Spurrier for being a fantastic TEAM therapist and organizer! I will also be there virtually doing a keynote address, a Q and A session, and a live TEAM-CBT demo with a workshop volunteer. The amazing Mike Christensen will be my co-therapist. Hope to see you there! Go to TEAMCBT.UK for registration and more information. Today we focus on relationship problems, starting with a real example, which often makes for the best teaching. Rhonda recently spent time with her son and daughter-in-law to help with their new twin babies. Rhonda's daughter-in-law had a very difficult delivery, and was in the hospital for several weeks following the birth of the babies. Rhonda worked relentlessly cooking and cleaning for them, feeding the babies, changing their diapers, and comforting them, and providing help for the new mom, who was overwhelmed and fearful of bathing the babies, thinking she might hurt them when attempting to bathe them. As so often happens in real life, Rhonda ran into a severe conflict with her daughter-in-law and responded with anger, and we all so often do. She reveals how terrible she and her daughter-in-law felt, and how she saved the day after deciding to have a “redo” of the interaction, using the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. Rhonda, Matt and David described one of the most difficult therapy tools in TEAM-CBT, the Paradoxical Invitation Step, and contrasted it with the Straightforward Invitation. Rhonda also mentioned some podcasts for further information on the Relationship Journal and the Interpersonal Model in TEAM-CBT. There are even more, but here are some that might interest you. My book, Feeling Good Together, is also a must-read for anyone wanting to make profound changes in the way you connect with the people you love, as well as your patients if you're a shrink! # Podcast Title Min 054 Interpersonal Model (Part 1) — “And It's All Your Fault!” Healing Troubled Relationships 54 055 Interpersonal Model (Part 2) — “And It's All Your Fault!” Three Basic Assumptions 27 056 Interpersonal Model (Part 3) — “And It's All Your Fault!” Interpersonal Decision-Making and Blame Cost-Benefit Analysis 46 057 Interpersonal Model (Part 4) — “And It's All Your Fault!” The Relationship Journal 44 226 The “Great Death” in a Corporate / Institutional Setting 56 227 Echoes of Enlightenment 43   We finished today's podcast with some entertaining role-playing exercises, using the Five Secrets of Effective Communication in interactions with extremely difficult individuals. This gave me the chance to role-play some incredibly obnoxious and practically impossible to please. My favorite role! Enjoy! Warmly, Rhonda, Matt, and David

Grass Roots TEAM-CBT Completely FREE Practice / Training Groups Today we interview four courageous pioneers of free and low-cost TEAM-CBT for the masses, featuring Brandon Vance, MD, Patricia O'Neil, Ana Teresa Silva, DVM and Nicholas Santascoy, PhD. Many of you are already familiar with Brandon Vance and Heather Clague's awesome online Feeling Great Book Clubs which will start again, running from September 13, 2023, through December 6, 2023. The book clubs are popular and have gotten wonderful reviews.  They are a fun and engaging way to structure your reading, discuss the book, see demonstrations, practice tools, ask experts questions and connect with others around the world who are working on Feeling Great – and no one is turned away for lack of funds. Sound interesting? You can learn more and join here. But you may not be aware of a growing number of fantastic totally free self-help groups springing up for people around the world. These groups offer training in different aspects of TEAM-CBT. For example, Patricia offers DAILY (!) practice sessions that focus on the use of the Daily Mood Journal. You can also join free 5-secrets practice groups groups that focus on changing habits groups that practice a variety of TEAM tools a book club focused on When Panic Attacks and more! All these groups are free and open to anyone worldwide. To see the growing list, go to https://www.feelinggreattherapycenter.com/free. This list is invaluable, and check the link from time to time because the offerings will likely continue to expand. Keep in mind that these are NOT therapy groups, but layperson-led self-improvement groups. Brandon and Rhonda remarked that these free groups are part of a heart-warming movement which continues the culture of generosity that David has created, starting with David's decades-long free weekly training groups for mental health professionals. The new self-help groups also carry the spirit of relating to others with deep empathy. The goal is to create an atmosphere of giving and support in mutual healing. A second goals is to learn to appreciate each other despite our differences. And so, the ripples that David has created continue to spread, and you can become a part of this process! Nicholas Santascoy is a research psychologist, academic coach and learning specialist who discovered Feeling Good in 2005.  He found it tremendously helpful and years later, began working with a TEAM therapist who suggested Brandon's Book Club. When the book club reached the Daily Mood Journal section, he asked if he could start a free DMJ practice group, which he did, and it's still going on each week, more than two years later. He was thoughtful about the group's structure, making it clear to the participants from the beginning that he is NOT a therapist and that this is not therapy. It is simply a place to practice TEAM with support – an important disclaimer for any non-therapist running a practice group. In his groups, each person spends 10 minutes at the start working on some common task, like describing an upsetting event for a Daily Mood Log, or suggesting positive reframing for a negative thought or feelings, and so forth. Or they might go through a sequence starting with one negative emotion, one negative thought, one cognitive distortion, one positive reframe, and one positive thought. His group has also worked with the exercises described in the two free chapters on habits and addictions offered at the bottom of Dr. Burns' website. Nicholas described working with a man with intense performance anxiety who had an upcoming job interview with a panel of eight individuals who were evaluating him. He was intimidated and anxious, but reluctant to give up his anxiety for a number of reasons. First, he was convinced that if he didn't worry, he wouldn't prepare effectively. In addition, he was convinced that he needed anxiety to do his best during the interview. Nicholas encouraged him to test these beliefs with experiments. He discovered, much to his surprise, that he was still strongly motivated to prepare for the interview when he was feeling relaxed and confident. He also recorded his interview and reviewed it afterwards. He was surprised to discover  that his best performance during the interview was when his anxiety had dropped to zero. Ana Teresa Silva is a Portuguese veterinary doctor who decided she wanted to work with people and became a coach in 2020. Ana Teresa developed a free Portuguese Five Secrets practice group in May of 2021. This quickly became an international group in English, free and open to anyone, and ran for two years and got rave reviews from participants. After that, she handed over the leadership to Linda Roth, M.Ed. This kind of group, in my (David's) opinion is incredibly important because learning the Five Secrets is a lot like learning to play the piano. It's possible to make beautiful music, but the Five Secrets are challenging to learn. Practice, combined with humility and the intense desire to learn, are the keys to learning and personal change. Patricia O'Neil, a former schoolteacher, loves David's books like Feeling Great, When Panic Attacks, Feeling Good Together and more. Patricia experienced a very severe, prolonged and immobilizing depression, and tried ALL of the standard medical treatments, even including electroconvulsive therapy, but her depression continued. She then started reading Feeling Great and joined Brandon and Heather's Feeling Great Book Club in 2022, and began to pull herself out of depression.  After several weeks she asked if there was a group for people who want to work their way through the book together in-between Book Club meetings, perhaps even daily, to “apply the strategies the best we can.” Brandon encouraged Patricia to start her own study group. She did! And not only that, she started many other groups as well – all completely free - including a When Panic Attacks Book Club, her daily Daily Mood Journal group, an eating healthy accountability chart, a coaches in training group and her own free advanced Five Secrets Practice group for people who have completed a Five Secrets Deep Dive series. Several of the participants in today's podcast had anxiety about being on the podcast. Patricia generously volunteered some of her negative thoughts, including: I might not do well. I'm gonna mess up! Brandon might regret asking me to join the group today. My flaws and imperfections will be on display. She said that these thoughts contained many of the familiar cognitive distortions, such as Fortune Telling, Magnification, and Should Statements, to name just a few. She also described some of the strategies she used to challenge these thoughts, including these positive thoughts: The whole future of the world doesn't depend on how well I do today! I probably WILL mess up, and that's okay! Then she bravely and tearfully described her own battles with depression since her retirement several years ago, and her gratitude at having found so many skills to deal with negative mood swings more effectively. Her comments were touching and inspiring, and actually embodied the goal of the practice groups that are rapidly emerging. The goals including: provide a structure for free ongoing practice and learning give individuals around the world the chance to join the emerging community of TEAM enthusiasts provide opportunities to connect with others in the spirit of openness, acceptance, and compassion. Most humans are hungry, even desperate, for love, learning, and relief of suffering, along with a connection with others who also care. Brandon and his many fans and colleagues are transforming this idealistic vision into a practical reality. At the end of this moving interview, Brandon mentioned a number of additional groups that are rapidly forming including two Signal text groups created by Derek Gurney. “Mission Accomplished or Refused,” is a place to “report on plans to tackle aversive tasks” and take accountability – which is an effective tool for changing habits. He has also created an  “Exposure Celebration” class, which sounds like a terrific chance to do exposure with the support and reinforcement from others. This is something tremendously helpful for people struggle with all types of anxiety. Again, please click here to see more information about these wonderful and completely free Grassroots TEAM CBT groups! And if YOU have a free TEAM practice group you'd like to start or have started and want to add to the list, please email Brandon Vance, MD (brandonvance@gmail.com). In fact, I've always dreamed of free self-help groups for mood problems, with much the same spirit of lay healing you find in Alcoholics Anonymous. And now, in my old age, it is tremendously encouraging to see this happening. I have to pinch myself, in fact! Thanks, Brandon, Nicholas, Ana Teresa, and Patricia! Warmly, David and Rhonda  

In this episode, I have the honor of talking with Dr. John Stracks and his wife Lisa Stracks. (See links below) It's always insightful to talk with Mind Body Medicine professionals about how emotions cause physical sympoms, but it's another thing to talk to a couple willing to share how that plays out in their marriage. A big thanks to both of them for their vulnerability and sharing their thoughts on marriage, new relationships, and parenting for those in Mind Body Syndrome/ TMS recovery.Here are a few of the topics we cover.1.Seeing Doctor Stracks as your physician.2.Lisa's role at Cormendi Health3.Anger - Life is lifey and we will always be presented with emotions that, left ignored, play out in chronic symptoms.4.Marriage: What does it mean to feel the emotions in a healthy way in marriage or intimate relationships?5.Relationships: What should those entering relationships with TMS/ Mind Body Syndrome be looking for in a partner?6.Parenting: How do you teach your children about the mindbodyconnection so they recognize physical symptoms as emotional presenting in the body. They also discuss how to help children to begin the process of identifying their emotions.For scheduling:cormendihealth.com/contact(home page is cormendihealth.com)For Cormendi Academy (our live, online program):https://cormendihealth.com/cormendiacademyBooks Dr. Stracks mentioned:Feeling Good Together, Dr. David BurnsThe Language of Emotions: What Your Feelings Are Trying to Tell You, Karla McLarenMindset: The New Psychology of Success, Carol DweckIF you are curious about my, Jen Johnson's, healing journey or coaching with me, check out my website at ThoughtByThoughtHealing.com#tms #mindbodysyndrome #cormendihealth #anger #alltherage #growthmindset #repressedemotions #suppressemotions #subconsciousemotions #youcanheal #curable #unlearnyourpain #healthyanger #relationshipadvice #catastrophizing #fightorflight

In this episode K'dee Elsen sits down with Jonathan Edens to discuss the importance of effective communication and how it can be used to resolve conflicts.  ✨ Feeling Good Together by David Burns, M.D. - https://www.amazon.com/Feeling-Good-Together-Troubled-Relationships/dp/0767920821

The Outer Bully Featuring Matthew May, MD Today we are proud to be joined again by our old pal, Matthew May, MD. This is a special two-part edition of Ask David, focusing on two of the most important problems that trigger emotional and interpersonal suffering. Last week, Matt led our discussion of the Inner Bully that causes the lion's share of internal suffering in the world. Feelings of depression and anxiety always result from the harsh distorted messages we give ourselves, telling ourselves we're “less than,” or “defective,” or “unlovable,” and so forth. However, the world is also filled with Outer Bullies who can be threatening, even violent. Today we describe how you can often deal with the Outer bully with the Five Secrets of Effective Communication (LINK). Today's podcast was inspired by a question submitted by Guillermo, one of our podcast fans: Hello, Dr Burns I've seen some cases of bullying lately in schools. Would the 5 secrets help a kid who is being bullied in school? (Not physical bullying). I have a son who will be going to middle school next year and wonder about this. David's Reply Hi Guillermo, Thanks, I might read question on podcast and address it. Might have two consecutive shows on the "inner bully" and then the "outer bully." I know one thing for sure, although I am not an expert in this area, and haven't worked much with kids. But ultimately, only your thoughts can upset you. The words and criticisms of others will never upset you, unless you buy into them. So, the good old Daily Mood Log is always the first step. Once you no longer find bullying threatening, it becomes much easier to deal with it. The bully relies on getting you all scared and terrified and hurt and so forth. Warmly, david Matt began today's podcast with a real case description working with a violent, involuntarily hospitalized, 6'6” patient weighing 300 pounds snuck into his office while Matt was dictating his notes, locked the door, and announced that he was going to kill Matt because the involuntary hospitalization was “illegal.” The man had been brought to the hospital by the police in a psychotic manic state because of bizarre behavior at his home that troubled the neighbors. Matt was terrified and said, “That was just one occasion when the Five Secrets of Effective Communication saved my life!” Link to Five Secrets Here's what Matt said to the man. I will indicate the communication technique(s) in each sentence in parentheses at the end of each sentence: “You're right! (Disarming Technique) You served your country and fought for our freedom (Stroking) and now we're taking away your freedom. (Disarming Technique) I feel the same way you do, (I Feel Statement). Can you tell me more about what you've been going through?  (Inquiry)” The man was taken aback and immediately sat down and began to open up. Matt continued to empathize, using the Five Secrets, and after a few minutes the patient fell asleep in his chair. He was then transferred to a higher security hospital ward. Essentially, Matt sided with him, rather than getting defensive or arguing, and saw the truth in what the man was saying, in spite of the fact that he was floridly psychotic, and treated the man with respect. David summarized the case of a colleague of his who was kidnapped by a violent serial rapist. She also used the Five Secrets, which transformed the entire nature of the interaction, and the rapist gave himself up to the police. He also described being bullied by two violent teenagers in a gigantic jeep when he was driving home from the drugstore, where he'd rented an enormous carpet cleaner. David's use of the Five Secrets in response to violent threats prevented violence, but also turned a potentially hostile and abusive interaction into a joyous and warm one. We concluded with Bullying Practice, saying the worst imaginable things to each other, like “David, you're a terrible person,” or “Matt, you're a bad therapist,” or “Rhonda, you're an insignificant person,” and then responding with the Five Secrets. It was an unexpectedly fun exercise, and the Five Secrets triumphed big time every time! The Outer Bully had no chance at all! However, this level of skill requires that you've mastered your own inner Bully, so you're not buying into what the bully says to you. This gives you a sense of peace and confidence that makes the Five Secrets a piece of cake, so to speak! David, Rhonda, and Matt want to emphasize that we make the Five Secrets look really easy and almost magical. Nothing can be further from the truth. We do hope to inspire you with examples of what's possible, but mastering these powerful tools takes an enormous amount of dedication, determination, and practice. If you'd like to learn more, I would strongly recommend reading David's book, Feeling Good Together, and doing the written exercises while reading. This would be an excellent first step! (Include book cover with link to Amazon.) Here, by the way, is an interesting link to a Ted Talk on bullying that you might enjoy. One of our colleagues, Dr. Daniele Leavy, found it and shared the link with our Tuesday group. Link to Ted Talk on Bullying Daniele explains: The speaker does a good job of differentiating what is commonly referred to as bullying from assault or criminal behavior, and demonstrates how to playfully use Disarming and Stroking to deflect the bullying. Thanks for joining us today! Matt, Rhonda, and David

Ask David: Featuring Matt May, MD Can hypnosis be used for evil? Can you fall out of love? Why does cheerleading fail? In today's podcast, we discuss three intriguing questions from listeners like you: Can hypnosis be used for evil? Matt says no, David mainly agrees, but isn't entirely convinced. Is it possible to fall out of love? This can and will happen. What can we do about it? Empathy vs. Cheerleading: What's the difference between cheerleading and genuine empathy with someone who's upset? Can hypnosis be used for evil? David and Matt describe their experiences, both as kids and later as shrinks, with hypnosis. David and Matt both used hypnosis early in their careers, especially in David's one-session treatment for smoking cessation, which Matt also used. But as their TEAM-CBT skills have grown, both of them use it much less frequently. It can be used for many purposes. In a recent podcast # (link) with Dr. Jeffrey Lazarus, we learned that it can be used for warts as well as a wide range of psychosomatic problems, like Irritable Bowel Syndrome and tics, as well as bedwetting, school phobia, performance anxiety, and more. Matt strongly believes that agenda setting (also called Assessment of Resistance) is just as important in hypnosis as in TEAM-CBT. You have to first bring the patient's subconscious resistance to conscious awareness and melt it away using paradoxical techniques in order to optimize the chances of success with hypnosis. Matt pointed out that hypnotic states can be quite powerful, and can even be used for surgery, but emphasizes that people will never td what they genuinely don't want to do when hypnotized. He says that hypnosis is really a form of willful collaboration between the hypnotist and the hypnotic subject. Although stage hypnotists seem to have some kind of “Svengali” power over the volunteers who come up to the stage to be hypnotized, these people are actually subconsciously volunteering to act silly and have fun in front of the audience. This doesn't mean they are faking it, but it does put these shows into a slightly different perspective. David described many goofy things he did as a teenager after he purchased a book called “25 Ways to Hypnotize Your Friends” at a magic store in Phoenix for 25 cents, and found that the techniques actually worked with many of his friends. He sometimes had a lot of fun giving post-hypnotic suggestions, and that he and his friends found hypnosis to be incredibly exciting and fascinating. Once he hypnotized a friend named Jerry and told Jerry that after he woke up, every time he heard the word, “TV,” he would shout out “Boing” in a loud voice without realizing it. In addition, his subconscious mind would keep track of how many “TVs” he heard, and then he'd should Boing that exact number of times. David explains: Then we went to the local Dairy Queen a few blocks away all ordered at the window, one by one. When it was Jerry's turn to order, and the lady asked him what he wanted, we all started saying “TV, TV, TV” as fast as we could, and Jerry would shout out “boing, boing, boing” in a loud, confident voice! She said, “I didn't quite get what you want to order,” and when Jerry tried to order, we did it again. It seemed incredibly funny, and fun, but in retrospect I WAS using hypnosis to kind of take advantage of someone, so you might say it CAN be used for evil, perhaps. However, Jerry didn't seem to mind, and we all thought it was a pretty exciting adventure. When I was a senior in high school, one of my teachers said that hypnosis was dangerous and told me to stop hypnotizing my friends, so I got scared and gave it up until I became a psychiatrist years later. Like anything, hypnosis is just a tool, and it can be helpful for suggestible individuals, but we have more than 100 techniques in TEAM-CBT, because no one tool has the answer for everybody and every problem. David and Matt both agree with anxiety, depression, and anger are very much like self-induced trances, since you are giving yourself and believing messages (hypnotic suggestions) that aren't actually true. For example: The depression trance: “I'm no good. I'll be depressed forever.” The anxiety trance: “Something awful is about to happen. I'm in incredible danger.” The anger trance: “You're no good!” Psychotherapy can be seen as an attempt to get each patient to “wake up” from the trance that has trapped them. In David's opinion, politicians sometimes put their followers in trance-like states, getting them to believe repeated suggestions that are blatantly untrue. We saw this in WWII, where Hitler essentially “hypnotized” an entire nation to believe some horrific lies and to spur them to unspeakably horrific actions. Of course, as Matt has pointed out, you have to WANT to be hypnotized, so possibly the German people wanted to see themselves as superior human beings who had been victimized unfairly by evil forces that needed to be eradicated. So, killing and the abuse of him beings became the focus and purpose of the nation. Is this possibly also happening today? And is that why narcissistic leaders want to control the media, so they can control the “hypnotic messages” that people get, and why they lash out in such a hostile way at anyone who dares to challenge or contradict them? Is it possible to fall out of love? A podcast listener says she often falls out of love with her husband, but after they talk things over, and resolve their differences, she falls in love again. She wants more on this topic, so Matt, Rhonda and David discuss the pitfalls of pursuing perfect, romantic love. David reminds us that some of the most successful marriages are in India, where the parents decide who you will marry. David said that when he was in private practice in Philadelphia, 60% of the patients he saw did not have a loving partner, and most were trying to find someone to love. That's why this is one of his favorite topics. Then Matt, Rhonda and David contrast healthy vs unhealthy love, and Matt created the following table that contrasts them. Perfect Love By Matt with a little editing from David Unhealthy Love Healthy Love You rush to put the other person on a pedestal without knowing them. You fantasize that they are perfect and wonderful in every way. You take your time getting to know each other in a curious, vulnerable and respectful way, recognizing that neither of you is perfect. You believe that you need the other person and couldn't be happy without them. You're confident and content on your own but also enjoy the company of the other person. You selfishly focus on getting what you want from the other person. You focus on what you can give the other person, and what you can do, to improve the relationship. You imagine you will be in love forever. You accept that relationships require careful tending and nurturing, and realize that there will be moments of conflict, disappointment, and hurt feelings, which can sometimes be intense. You tell yourself that you'll never and should never have any conflicts or disagreements. You see conflict as opportunities, in disguise, for greater understanding and closeness.   Cheerleading vs. Empathy Rhonda describes a recent traumatic experience which was profoundly disturbing to her. However, when she tried to tell a friend how upset she was, her friend did “cheerleading,” telling her that she shouldn't be so upset, that she'd feel better again soon, and so forth. Rhonda said it was very annoying to be on the receiving end, and her friends efforts to cheer her up actually made her feel worse. Then, when two friends simply used the Five Secrets of Effective Communication to “listen,” it was a great relief. David recounted a similar experience when his beloved cat, Obie, disappeared in the middle of the night, and was likely killed by a predator animal in the woods behind his house. When David told his Tuesday group what had happened, one member of the group similarly tried to cheer him up, which triggered an angry rebuke from David, who told her NOT to try to take his grief away. He said, “My grief is my loving connection to Obie, who was my best friend in the whole world. I will grieve his loss for the rest of my life. And to this very day, I talk to Obie, as well as my good friend Marilyn Coffy who passed away recently, every time I go out slogging. This is not a problem that I need help with, but a gift of love.” We've touched on the codependent urge to cheerlead that so many people, including shrinks, have. For example, our podcast on “How to help, and how NOT to help,” covers this topic pretty thoroughly. However, we decided to focus on cheerleading again today, since it is such an important topic, and is a bit of an addiction that many people have. The following is a chart we discussed during the podcast, and you might find it helpful. Cheerleading vs. Empathy by David , Rhonda, and Matt Cheerleading Empathy You're trying to cheer someone up to make them feel better. You are not trying to cheer them up. Instead, you acknowledge how they're thinking and feeling, and you encourage them to vent and open up. You don't acknowledge the validity of the person's negative thoughts and emotions. In fact, when you try to cheer them up, you're essentially telling that they're wrong to feel upset. It's a subtle put down, or even a micro-aggression. You find the grain of truth in what the person is saying, even if you think they're exaggerating the negatives in their life.   Paradoxically, when you agree with them in a respectful way, they will typically feel some relief and support. The effect is irritating to almost everybody who's upset, because you aren't listening or showing any compassion or respect. You're telling them that you don't want to hear what they have to say. Cheerleading is condescending. Listening and acknowledging how they feel is a form of humility and an expression of respect. You're trying to control the other person. You're telling them how they should think and feel. There's no acceptance. You're sitting with open hands and not trying to change or control the other person. You're just trying to understand and support them in their suffering. Cheerleading is cheap and easy to learn. You're like a used car salesman, trying to promote your product. Empathy is difficult and challenging to learn because you have to let go of the idea that you know what's best for other people. Listening requires going into the darkness with the other person, this requires courage and vulnerability. You say generally nice things about someone, like you're “a good person,” or “a survivor,” thinking those formulaic words will somehow change the way the other person is thinking and feeling. You might also say, “don't be so hard on yourself,” or “think of all the positive things in your life,” or “you'll be fine.” You focus on the other person's specific thoughts and zero in on exactly what they're saying and how they might be feeling, rather than throwing vague, general positives at them. These positives are simply an annoying attempt to distract the person from their genuine feelings. You encourage the person to share and experience their negative thoughts and feelings. You believe your role is to “help,” “fix” or “save” the other person, who is broken. Your role is to be with the other person in a loving way without trying to help or save them. You are being self-centered because you're essentially preaching the gospel and exclusively promoting your own ideas. You are being other-centered, focusing entirely on what the other person is saying. You're talking “at” the other person. You are NOT talking AT them, you are being WITH them. When you empathize, you give the other person zero, and zero in, instead, on how they're thinking and feeling. That's why I (David) call Empathy the “zero technique.” But, paradoxically, when you give them “nothing” you are giving them “everything.” In case you're interested in honing your own empathy skills, you can take a look at the Five Secrets of Effective Communication (link). To develop these skills, you might want to read Feeling Good Together (link), but make sure you do the written exercises while reading. Otherwise, you'll only get intellectual understanding of them, whereas skill is what you actually need, and that can only be developed with practice! Sadly, most people, including therapists, believe that their empathy skills are already excellent, but that is rarely valid! In fact, there's a ton of room for improvement in ALL of us! We thank you for joining us today. Please keep your excellent questions and warm comments coming in. Rhonda and David want to thank Matt for his frequent, brilliant, and heart-warming appearances on the Feeling Good Podcast. Remember that we're still trying to grow our show, and recent hit 6 million downloads. We are currently getting around 160,000 downloads per month, which is terrific. It would help us a lot if you give a five star review for our show wherever you get your podcasts, as that might boost our ratings. We love our fans and thank you for listening!

How to Master the Five Secrets: If You Dare! In our recent podcast surveys, one of the highest rated show topics was learning therapy techniques, both for therapists and for the general public. That's why today we're going to take a deeper dive on some of the fine points of the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. We'll show you how to use them with individuals who are angry and hostile, including some patients with Borderline Personality Disorder as well as kids who may be ticked off at a parent. These topics were specifically requested by people who completed the podcast survey. Link to Five Secrets The Five Secrets are like a fantastic musical instrument, capable of working magic for troubled relationships. You can't just sit down at a fine grand piano and pound on the keys and expect great music to emerge. You'll just get cacophony. To learn the Five Secrets, you need: Great determination and desire The willingness to endure the “Great Death” of the “self,” or pride. Tons of ongoing practice with immediate feedback and deliberate practice involving role reversals until you get it “right,” or receive an “A.” To get started, Rhonda and David made a list of a few of the most challenging criticisms a therapist might hear from a patient, or a parent might hear from a teenager. Criticisms from patients included: You don't care about me! I'm not getting better. You're not helping me! You charge too much! All you care about is your darn techniques. That's not my child's name! You're not listening to me! And this one, from a first time patient referred by the courts: I got anxious last night and masturbated to your image, which I found on the internet, and it really helped! These are some criticisms from kids: Stop nagging me! Stop giving me advice. I don't want any advice! We demonstrated the “Intimacy Exercise” I have created for our training programs. You can use this exercise to work on conflicts with patients and conflicts with loved ones. It works exactly the same way in both situations. You'll need someone to practice with. Step 1. One of you agrees to play the critic and the other plays the role of the person being attacked (therapist or parent, for example.) Step 2. The person playing the role of the critic verbalizes the hostile comment. Step 3. The person playing the role of the therapist / parent responds as effectively as you can, using the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. Now you must STOP. The exchange is done. No further interaction in the role playing format is permitted. Step 4. The person who played the role of the therapist / parent gives himself / herself a grade between A and F. Ask yourself, “How well did I do just now?” Step 5. The person who played the role of the critic gives the therapist / parent a letter grade, and then provides the following specific kinds of feedback using Five Secrets language. Positive Feedback: Here's what you said that worked pretty well. Your Thought Empathy was great, and your Disarming Technique was fairly good. Your Stroking was excellent, especially when you said X, Y, or Z. Negative Feedback: Here's what you said that needs a little fine tuning: Your Feeling Empathy was completely missing—you did not acknowledge how the other person was feeling. Your “I Feel” statements were also missing, and there was no Inquiry at the end. Then you can suggest ways to include the Five Secrets elements that were missing or “off,” and demonstrate how you might improve the response to the criticism with a role reversal, followed by another round of grading and positive and negative feedback. Continue using role-reversals until both parties can get an A on the exercise, always using the same harsh criticism that you're trying to learn how to master. Don't try something new until you've mastered the thing you're working on. The practice is powerful but hard, and requires the philosophy of “joyous failure.” This means welcoming the chance to get immediate feedback about your skills, or lack of skill, instead of getting blown away, defensive, or “yes-butting” the person who's trying to correct your technique. You will hear some pretty dramatic examples of this on today's podcast! The Five Secrets can be life-changing, but the price of learning is fairly stiff. If you want the rewards, the exercise we demonstrate in today's podcast can be incredibly helpful—but scary! Also, you can read my book, Feeling Good Together, and do the written exercises while reading if you're a therapist or a general citizen. This helps a lot. Dr. Jill Levitt said she kept Feeling Good Together on her nightstand for more than a year when she first joined by training group at Stanford. Her dedication and hard work have clearly paid off for her. If you're a therapist, you can also read the chapters on E = Empathy in my Tools, Not Schools, of Therapy book, and make sure you do the written exercises while reading! Thanks so much! And good luck if you're brave enough to try our “Intimacy Exercise!” David and Rhonda  

Ask David: Featuring Matt May, MD 1. Nick asks: “What if you want a positive relationship with someone who does not want the same thing?” 2. Debbie asks: Hi David, I can't stop ruminating and obsessing about weird states of minds or when I was afraid of harming someone or remembering. Everyone says to let go but why do I hang on. Where in your book can you help me? 3. Dean asks: I'm having trouble sleeping. What should I do? 4. Kathy asks a question about social anxiety / panic and the hidden emotion technique. Note: The answers below were generated prior to the podcast, and the information provided on the live podcast may be richer and different in a number of ways. 1. Nick asks many general relationship problems that all need specific examples. Dear David, Thank you for all the amazing work you do. Your books and podcasts have helped me to understand and start to transform a lot of negative and unwanted frames that I carry around. I'm also working with a Level 3 therapist who I found through the Feeling Good Institute. One area I'm working on is building my empathy skills using the Five Secrets model. I see how powerful it is in situations where both people are open to a positive relationship. But I struggle with the idea that each of us creates our own interpersonal reality, and can always create a positive outcome regardless of the other person. Can you help me understand how to apply the technique to some challenging situations? - What happens if you want a positive relationship with the other person, but they fundamentally do not? I find that this situation leads the other person to react to the Five Secrets with anger or indifference. Or they view you as weak for exposing your emotions and vulnerability, and try to exploit them for advantage over you. Is it even worth trying to have a positive relationship with such a person? David's reply I try not to impose on people who do not want a positive relationship with me. You could also provide a specific example, as I always insist on having! These vague questions to my ear are kind of useless. Matt's reply David, you've said that the cause of all relationship problems is Blame.  I agree with this and sense that Nick's question is driving at that point, as well.  If someone doesn't want to participate in our definition of a ‘positive' relationship, the approach that is most in line with the 5-Secrets and Empathy is to let go and stop demanding the other person change.  That's the cause of the problem:  trying to force people to do things, our way, regardless of what they want.  This will cause them to resist and will damage the relationship. David, you have also talked about the opposite mindset of blame, where we can wield 5-Secrets honestly and effectively, the concept of ‘Open Hands'.  When we have the attitude of ‘Open Hands', we can welcome other people and receive them or gracefully let go. This mental state avoids conflict and the ‘blame game' in a healthy, non-avoidant way. For example, if someone says, “I don't want to have a relationship with you”.  We might reply, using the 5-Secrets, ‘You're right, I've been disrespectful and inappropriately pushing you too hard in the direction of having a relationship with me.  I appreciate your letting me know, clearly, that this isn't something you want.  While I can imagine you might be angry with me, I'm sure you don't want to talk about that, but prefer, instead, to end the relationship as quickly as possible.  I'm feeling awkward and would like to get out of your hair as soon as possible, too.  What can I do to facilitate ending this relationship in a way you would be satisfied with?” To put it another way, while you can maximize your chances of having a positive interpersonal experience with someone, using these communication skills, the 5-Secrets, they are not ‘mind control' and trying to use them that way will only make matters worse, hence the importance of the internal mindset of ‘open hands', accepting others' preferences and being willing to let go, perhaps grieve, refocus our attention elsewhere, if that's not what they want.  Otherwise, we are in the ‘chasing' and ‘blaming' role, which is doomed to fail, as has been discussed on previous podcasts. It may also be useful to consider whether it's actually possible to ‘not have a relationship' with someone.  My sense is that there is, in fact, a relationship, even between total strangers and between people who have decided, mutually, to end their relationship.  We could point out how those two types of relationships might differ, say, if you were to bump into each other in a grocery store.  In the latter example, you might be expected to try a bit harder to avoid contact, with an agreed-upon, ‘ex' than you would, with a stranger.  There are rules and expectations and ways in which both people think about the other person and define their ‘relationship', even if you are saying that it has ‘ended'.  The conflict comes when we don't have the same agenda and don't agree on the terms and rules of the relationship. There are many other related topics, including the ‘gentle ultimatum', ‘interpersonal decision making' and ‘blame CBA' which could be useful for Nick. Nick continues - What if you believe the other person does have a fundamental desire for a good relationship, but they are so attached to their anger, fear or depression that their only reaction is hostility and defense? Perhaps such a person can't or won't admit to their emotions, and rejects the empathy. Should you keep trying, and at what point if any should you give up? David's reply Need a specific example! I may have mentioned that! Matt's reply:  A specific example sure would help!  The problem seems related to the ‘blame game' which we just talked about.  We are demanding the other person change, and stop being so hostile and defensive.  Instead, consider using Interpersonal Decision Making and look at the three options that are available, in any relationship.  If you decide to take responsibility for the relationship, try the Relationship Journal, so you can see through the blame that is causing the problem.  You could also use positive reframing to admire their hostility, defensiveness, anger, fear and depression. Nick continues: Perhaps there are mistaken or lying about the facts, and unwilling to admit it. Or you disbelieve what they say because it doesn't match their actions or is calculated to deflect blame. For example, you may have a conflict over who cleans the house. The objective fact is that you do this 80% of the time and have done it the last 5 times in a row, while the other person has consistently left garbage lying around. Yet the other person says "I feel like you never do housework and I am always the one cleaning, and I'm sick of it". How can you find truth in such a statement? David's reply Work this out on a Relationship Journals. Write down what you said next, and follow th steps clearly spelled out in Feeling Good Together. Or, I could send you one. Matt's Reply Disarming is really challenging because it requires us to let go of our version of the ‘truth', at least temporarily, in order to see the other person's truth.  People often don't want to do that, even for a moment!  Furthermore, if the other person is angry, they are likely to distort the truth in their statements, for effect, to be more persuasive.  The problem with this, is that it will call our attention to the lies they are telling, tempting us away from seeing their truth.  Without knowing more about the situation, I could only guess at what their ‘truth' is.  Here are some possibilities, though:  Is it possible that they have some reasonable expectation for us to do more of the cleanup than them?  Are they offering something else in the relationship that offsets their lack of cleaning?  Do they do the majority of the cooking?  Do they do the shopping?  Do they pay more of the bills?  Also, were they the last one to do the cleaning?  When they clean, do they spend more time on it or do a more thorough job?  When they clean, do they clean up their things as well as yours?  Do you do that?  You stated that they leave their 'garbage lying around'.  Is that how they see it?  Is it possible that they put their things precisely where they wanted them to be and didn't want you ‘tidying up'? The point is that disarming requires seeing the bigger picture, not just the one data point that best supports your blaming them.  Try to see past this and, if you can't, considering Interpersonal Decision making and the Blame CBA, where you would write down the good reasons to blame the other person and insist that your version of the truth is complete and correct and that theirs is wrong and bad. Nick carries on - What should you do in situations where you both have attachments to other incompatible goals? In Lee's case on episodes 96-98 of your podcast and Chapter 27 of Feeling Great, both Less and his wife had the same fundamental values with regard to raising their daughter. So once he applied the Five Secrets, they were able to move past their ego defenses and share the same perspective. But what if there is a zero-sum situation where both of you have different core values? For example, choosing a grade school for your child. One parent sincerely believes in their core values that their child will benefit from attending a rigorous school where they will be challenged and grow. The other parent sincerely believes in their core values that children should be in a relaxed environment where they can play as much as possible. Can the Five Secrets help with this type of conflict? David's reply Read the chapter in Feeling Good Together on the idea that the attempt to solve the problem IS the problem, and the refusal to solve it is the solution. I think you've got some work to do! Now we'll see if you do it! Matt's Response In this case, you could agree to disagree and let a professional decide what would be best for your child.  Studies conducted longitudinally by Chess and Thomas showed that no one parenting style was ‘best' overall, but rather that outcomes for human being were determined primarily by how well the parenting style suited the child. 2. Debbie asks: Hi David, I can't stop ruminating and obsessing about weird states of minds or when I was afraid of harming someone or remembering. Everyone says to let go but why do I hang on? Where in your book can you help me? David's reply You can read my book, When Panic Attacks. You can use search function on website for many illuminating podcasts on anxiety and OCD. You can sign up for the free anxiety class. Go for it. Then ask specific questions about something you're working on based on these resources. Matt's reply Well, you're not alone!  Nobody can ‘stop ruminating'.  Try a mental experiment, where you try to ‘stop ruminating about a blue-eyed tiger'.  Tell yourself, ‘I must stop ruminating about a blue eyed tiger!  I must stop ruminating about a blue eyed tiger!'.  You will come to realize that it's Impossible and the harder you try, the more you obsess.  One possible solution is to find something else, something better, to become the focus of your attention.  Imagine a ‘Miracle Cure' were possible.  What would you most wish to see happen in your life? You could then use the Decision Making Form, to weigh different options, comparing the miracle cure to the status quo, for example.  There are, after all, real advantages to ruminating and obsessing.  You might have a sense that you're being responsible, protecting others, preventing yourself from going into weird states of mind and harming people.  This is part of your moral nature, doing no harm, being considerate and thoughtful, sacrificing your needs for others.  That's a good thing!  Also, you might be afraid of committing to pursuing your dreams, for good reason.  There are real disadvantages of doing that.  The risk of failure, humiliation, conflict, disappointment and defeat, for example.  Until you are convinced that you would want some other version of your life, despite the many advantages of rumination and the disadvantages of change, other methods are unlikely to be effective.  If you firmly decide and are committed to change, meaning that you have convinced yourself that this is what you want, on the Decision Making Form, then there are lots of methods that could be helpful. For example, you could use the Get Specific method and an assessment of Process Resistance.  When do I want to be cured?  What would I be willing to do, to have my dreams come true?  What are some small steps I  could take to get there (Anti-Procrastination / Little Steps for Big Feats).  What time will I do these tasks?  Sit down and schedule time in your day to pursue your dreams (Activity Scheduling).  If intrusive thoughts come in, try ‘Self Monitoring and Response Prevention'.  If temptation is especially tenacious, try the Devil's Advocate Technique.  I'd recommend looking into things like the ‘Hidden Emotion'.  Is ruminating a form of ‘niceness', an avoidance of a conflict?  For example, who are you angry with?  Have you told them?  If you go live your best life, who would object?  You can also give yourself a certain amount of time, per day, to obsess, wholeheartedly (worry breaks).  How much time would you like to spend ruminating?  Schedule this time and if you're ruminating outside that time, remind yourself that you have plenty of time to ruminate later.  Again, there are a lot of methods that could help and finding the right ones will be a bit of trial and error! 3. Dean asks: I'm having trouble sleeping. What should I do? Hi Dr. Burns, I picked up a copy of 'Feeling Great' and am excited to start reading it. I have been battling anxiety, depression, and severe chronic insomnia for the past year. Do I start with TEAM-CBT for anxiety/depression and deal with that first, or do I supplement with CBTi-for Insomnia and do both at the same time? I met with the Mayo Clinic last fall and they said the root cause of the Insomnia is some depression. I have been to a lot of doctors, specialists, and therapists and so far no one has been able to help. Thank you! David's reply I am not familiar with the insomnia app but it can likely give you some of the basics of sleep hygiene in case you do not already know them. TEAM can be helpful, to say the least, for the mood or relationship issues that may be triggering the troubles sleeping. Often, we may have trouble sleeping because we are upset about something. Sleep difficulties are a non-specific manifestation of being upset about something. There is no special relationship with depression, however. It could be anxiety, anger, anything. Let me know what evolves for you! And, of course, sleep difficulties do not always result from emotional disturbance, but this is often the case. For humans, problems don't usually just come from out of the blue, but from your life! David Matt's reply The best response to the question, ‘How do I get to sleep at night', that I've heard is, ‘try to stay awake'. Meanwhile, I have a couple of thoughts on diagnosis and treatment planning. Having a diagnosis of ‘anxiety' or ‘depression' is like having a ‘diagnosis' of ‘cough' or ‘fever'.  Our feelings are symptoms, not the source.  g.  if someone has symptoms of a cough and fever, that could be the result of any number of different underlying causes:  bacteria, viruses, fungi, allergic reactions, autoimmune disease, toxin exposures, etc., etc.  To make more accurate guesses about an appropriate treatment regimen, we need greater specificity.  In the treatment of symptoms like depression, anxiety and insomnia, we would need to know much more about a specific moment in time when you were having these symptoms, what you were doing, what you were thinking and details about the feeling state you were in before deciding how to prioritize the methods that would be part of a treatment plan, which we call a ‘recovery circle' in TEAM. In medical school, they train physicians to ‘cast a very wide net', when considering all the possible causes of the symptoms a patient is experiencing. This list of possible causes is referred to as a ‘differential diagnosis' by physicians.  The idea is to organize this list according to what is statistically most likely given all the information we have on hand and to conduct various tests to narrow down these options, in order to prioritize a treatment strategy that is most likely to be effective.  Meanwhile, we want to keep open in our minds that our diagnosis could be wrong and that we will need to monitor the outcome carefully, with frequent testing, rather than assume we know the ‘root' problem with 100% certainty, so we can modify the treatment strategy based on results. While it's tempting to try to try to optimize treatment results by matching the diagnosis with a ‘school' of therapy, (ERP for OCD, EMDR for trauma, DBT for BPD, etc.), there are several problems with this ‘schools' vs. ‘tools' approach to therapy. For one, the reality is that people are quite complex beings and diagnostic labels are quite imprecise and limited.  Even when we have an accurate diagnosis, we can't predict precisely which specific set of methods will be required to help someone recover.  Furthermore, even if someone has the exact same set of upsetting negative thoughts related to their anxiety, depression and insomnia, perhaps their thoughts circle from ‘I must get some sleep, I'll never get to sleep, I'll feel terrible tomorrow, Everything will go wrong, I'm a hopeless case, I'm a loser…I must get some sleep (repeat)', even if the thoughts are the same in multiple different people, we can only make informed guesses, rather than predict, perfectly, what method(s) will suit that individual best.  Will it be the double standard technique, or cognitive flooding, sleep restriction, the hidden emotion, the Socratic technique or memory rescripting, self-monitoring or response prevention, something else? The solution to this uncertainty is the Recovery Circle. The ‘recovery circle' is a customized list of at least twenty methods, that are selected based on the specific feelings, thoughts or behaviors someone would like to see change.  Each of these methods will have some reasonable chance to help an individual, with their particular thoughts and feelings and behaviors.  The idea is then to ‘fail our way to success', using trial-and-error, with measurement in between, to discover, scientifically, what is the best method for that individual.  Once we do, we focus on practicing that method regularly to gain skill with it, until our patients are not only cured, but able to recover from relapses on their own, because they know the methods that are most helpful to them. Another consideration is that, in general, folks benefit from an approach that is kind, empathic, respectful, grounded in science and measurement, and attentive to resistance and motivational barriers to change. One reason I would recommend TEAM to a family member or friend is that it contains each of these necessary elements of therapy and also has the greatest diversity of tools to help someone, as well as a customized approach to treatment.  I think that's why TEAM has been shown to be much more effective than other forms of therapy. All that said, it's important to realize that TEAM itself is incomplete and we would want to continue to expand up the model and, when you're in treatment, know that it's fine to get a second, third or fourth opinion on what methods and approaches are most likely to benefit you. 4. Kathy asks about social anxiety, panic and the hidden emotion technique. Hi Dr. Burns, Thank you so much for all the great information you put out there! I had a question about hidden emotion. If I experienced dizziness in a social setting ten years ago and now I panic whenever I am in a similar situation anticipating the dizziness. Is there still a connection to the original emotion that is still hidden or is it a habit at this point? Thank you so much David's reply Were you upset with somebody or something in that situation? Matt's reply: You could use uncovering techniques, like the ‘What If' Technique and the ‘Interpersonal Downward Arrow', among others, to figure that out. For example, ‘what if you got dizzy?  What's the worst that could happen? You can write down your answer, and continue to ask yourself, ‘what if that happened, what would I be anxious about?'.  Then, as yourself, if that happened, what would other people think about me?  How would they treat me?  What kind of people are these people, I'm imagining?  How do I feel about people like that?  

Podcast 296: Forced Empathy: A Master Class--Part 2 of 2 Last week you heard part ! of our work witt Zeina, a young professional woman struggling with a conflict with her mom. Zeina feels like her mother is too critical of her, and she finds the criticisms devastating. In today's podcast, you will hear my co therapist, Dr. Jill Levitt, and I, doing Forced Empathy with Zeina, and you will hear the exciting conclusion of the session. I am including the entiere show notes from last week, in case you have not yet reviewed them. Show notes from last week commence here. Today Dr. Jill Levitt and I do live work with Zeina Halim who has been experiencing some intense negative feelings because of her mother's criticisms of her. Zeina is a member of my weekly training group at Stanford and has appeared on the podcast on several previous occasions (Please provide numbers plus link to podcast page on website.) Zeina is one of our small group leaders in our Tuesday training group.  She works with teens and adults in-person in her office in Menlo Park and also provides tele-health sessions for clients living anywhere in California. Dr. Jill Levitt is the co-leader of my Tuesday training group at Stanford and will be my co-therapist today. We hope for some more of the “magic” that frequently appears when we do therapy together. Today's podcast will illustrate a number of teaching points, including these: Forced Empathy: We illustrate exactly how to use this powerful and sophisticated technique. When I first created this technique many years ago, I thought there would be little interest in it, so I rarely taught it in my workshops or training groups. In the past several years, an intense interest in this technique has emerged, so you will get to see exactly how it works. Five Secrets Resistance: There has been great interest in the Five Secrets of Effective Communication that are featured in my book, Feeling Good Together. When used skillfully, they can have a phenomenal effect on any troubled relationship. I am even aware of a case of a woman who was kidnapped at gunpoint by a violent serial rapist who planned to kill her. Out of desperation, she used the Five Secrets I had presented at a workshop he had just attended, and he let her go and turned himself in to the police. The Five Secrets literally saved her life. And yet, many of us stubbornly refuse to use the Five Secrets with family, friends and loved ones. Why do we fight against the very tools that would rapidly bring us peace, love and joy? And what can we do about our own internal “resistance”? The “inner” and “outer” solutions: Whenever you are involved in a conflict with someone, there are two battles raging at the same time. One is the “inner battle” with your own negative thoughts, telling you that you're no good, or that the other person is to blame, and the voice that powerfully urges you to do battle. We approach the “inner battle” with the familiar Daily Mood Log, that helps you pinpoint the distorted messages you are giving yourself. You will see that those messages—the way you talk to yourself when you're upset—are loaded with distortions; such as All-or-Nothing Thinking, Overgeneralizations, Mental Filtering, Discounting the Positive, Mind-Reading, Labeling, Should Statements and Hidden Should Statements, Emotional Reasoning, Other-Blame, and more.In today's session, we do battle with Zeina's distorted thoughts with the Externalization of Voices, arguably one of the most powerful psychotherapy tools ever created. The EAR Checklist / Relationship Journal. The “outer battle” involves the words you use when you respond to the other person's criticisms of you. Here we use the Relationship Journal, another super powerful tools that allows you to analyze your own statements with the EAR Checklist and see the shocking reality that you are creating the very conflict that you are complaining about so vigorously. This involves one of the “Great Death” of the self, which can be profoundly painful, but it also leads to liberation from your self-created misery and the chance for renewed love and connection with the person you feel so alienated from. Two-hour sessions. You can do far more in a single, two-hour session than in many 50 minute sessions scheduled at weekly intervals. I have often said that this is how I always do therapy, and if you have some therapy skills, this model is vastly more effective and cost-effective as well. It puts you under pressure to accomplish something today, right now, and not in the vague or distant future. Uncovering Techniques. You will see how you can use the Man from Mars Technique to uncover more of your patient's negative thoughts and core beliefs. This is just another way of doing the classical “Individual Downward Arrow Technique” that I developed way back in the 1970s. The Acceptance Paradoxes. There is a great deal of talk these days about Acceptance is being an important key in many schools of psychotherapy. But what is acceptance, and how do we teach it to our patients and colleagues? Today's session with Zeina, who has a great interest in Buddhist philosophy and practices, illustrates one of more than 20 paths to acceptance, and this one in particular will teach you the steps in accepting others, especially when you are desperately trying to change them and you are insisting that they “shouldn't” be the way they are! Self-acceptance is always about grasping a gigantic paradox—and that's why I've always called it the Acceptance Paradox, which states: Accepting yourself as you are, warts and all, is actually the greatest change a human being can make. Can you see why this is a paradox? It's because the very moment you accept yourself, everything about you and your world will appear to change. Now here's another acceptance paradox we will explore today. The very moment when you accept another person exactly as she or he is, that person will suddenly change. Of course, that is the exact opposite of what we usually do when we desperately keep trying to “change” them, a strategy that actually forces them to be the very monster you are trying so hard to destroy. By the way, do you know what the plural form of paradox is, when you combine Self- and Other-Acceptance? The plural form is called the Acceptance Paradise. T = Testing is crucial! You cannot do truly effective therapy without the T = Testing. You will find out EXACTLY how effective—or ineffective—you are in every session with every patient. When you listen to the podcasts, you can ask yourself questions like these: How effective are Jill and David being? Will they get good empathy and helpfulness ratings from Zeina? Will we see any reductions in Zeina's powerful negative feelings at the start of the session? Will she make a breakthrough in her relationship with her mother? At the end of the session, you will see the answers to these questions. And if you're a therapist, that kind of powerful and precise information will allow you to grow and learn as a therapist, especially if you approach the information with humility and respect for yourself and your patients. There is almost no limit to the evolution of your therapist skills if you use the T = Testing model I have developed. There is almost no chance for personal growth if you do not use these or similar assessment tools. However, the price of growth is steep. You have to be willing to see your own failures and errors at every session with every patient, and this will often be painful. But this is the pain that can lead to your own personal transformation along with the blossoming of your own superb therapy skills. Today, in Part 1 of the Zeina session, you will hear the T = Testing and E = Empathy parts of the session. Next week, in Part 2, you will hear the very brief A = Assessment of Resistance, which really only included the “Miracle Cure Question: ”What, really, are you, Zeina, hoping for in tonight's session?” You will also hear the amazing M = Methods portion, which will start with Forced Empathy, followed by Externalization of Voices and Five Secrets Practice, along with the final T = Testing and homework assignments for Zeina following the session. Rhonda, Jill, Zeina and I hope you enjoy the podcasts and learn a great deal from them. And we all want to thank you, Zeina for your courageous and brilliant work, sharing your inner self so openly and generously. I believe that sessions like the one our fans will witness today and next week have the potential to provide hope and healing to people around the world, not only today, but for decades to come. At least, that is my hope! I also want to thank you, Jill, for your extraordinary teaching and clinical skills, and for your brilliance and warmth. Thank you for tuning in! Rhonda, Zeina, and David Here is a follow-up note from Zeina Hello David, Jill, and the Tuesday group, Boy, do I have an update for you all! So, at first, I struggled, and I was very worried to have to potentially send an update to the group that may have been disappointing. On Saturday, I saw my mom, and I shared with her the insights that I had in our session. She was appreciative, but I didn't feel very connected to her. I had talked with her about this while she and I were on a walk, and I wondered if maybe walking while talking was taking away some of the intimacy or connection that might have happened if we had been looking at each other while talking. I also noticed that while I was externally behaving somewhat better if my mom criticized me, internally, I still hadn't progressed very far. I would still feel very distant from her; and I still wasn't doing the five secrets. Today, on Sunday, I saw my mom again. While she did not criticize me, we still got into a little bit of an argument. I was a bit angry, but as I let myself cool off, I noticed myself feeling incredibly sad inside--like a sadness that had been building and building over the past few weeks. I tried to talk with my mom about it, but she resisted at first. We had a project that we were working on together today and she thought it would be better if we talked on another day and got back to our project; I insisted, however, and asked that we please talk today. I did not realize it at the time, but I think I had some major hidden emotion stuff happening with my mom (more on this later, perhaps some hidden sadness that was masquerading as anger). I shared with her that I had felt incredibly sad and genuinely worried about our relationship. I recently moved in order to live closer to her and see her more often, but I had noticed that almost every time she came over to visit me at my new place, we would get into an argument at least once. I shared that these arguments had really been weighing on me and worrying me. I also told her that I noticed that we would get into arguments when we were at my place, but not as much when I visited her at her place, maybe because I am so particular about how I like things to be at my place. She, then, said in a very gentle and loving way, "I think ‘particular' about your space is the operative word here." I realized that she was totally right, and I was so pleasantly surprised by how gentle and loving she was when she said it. Feeling encouraged by how the conversation was going, I shared more and said that I had noticed that I had become more sensitive around our arguments lately and that I was feeling very disconnected from her, and I didn't know how to get reconnected with her. I also shared that I had been feeling lonely in my life in general lately and made a guess that maybe my loneliness was making me expect more from our relationship. Additionally, I also guessed that I might be feeling more drained emotionally because I am doing more hours of therapy per week than I have ever done in my life, and maybe I had yet to find the right balance of how to recreate and regenerate my energy in my off-hours. I shed many tears all throughout this whole conversation. I checked in with myself and noticed that I was feeling more connected to my mom, but there felt like there was still more, particularly about my loneliness. This next paragraph might seem like a major tangent, but hang in there!--I promise it is all connected :) Then, I switched gears a little bit to share with her a different conversation and insight I had had in the past week or so about my recent feelings of loneliness. I had been having a conversation with my very dear friend, James, about how I had been feeling lonely, but was not feeling as drawn to connecting with most of my girlfriends, but only really drawn to my guy friends. Initially, I thought it was a male-female difference, but then I noticed that I was feeling drawn to my new friend Leigh Harrington, who is female. I realized that maybe the difference had more to do with the fact that almost all my male friends and Leigh were quite funny and playful people, whereas most of my girlfriends were more serious people. As for myself, I tend to be a more serious person and am not as funny or playful as many people. I realized that I was relying on other people for my laughter, playfulness and fun, rather than learning how to create that myself. Having just done some flirting training with Matthew May earlier that week, I saw that humor, like flirting, can be a learned skill and might have more to do with a willingness to take risks than an innate quality that people either have or don't have. I was feeling excited that I could learn to be funnier and flirtier and create more laughter in my life, instead of relying on other funny people for this. I shared all of this with my mom. She then went on to make a further connection that really blew me away. She said, "I bet if you start to be funnier and create more laughter for yourself and others, you will also start to feel less lonely." It felt so true! The times I feel most connected to people are when I am laughing with them. THIS is the kind of relationship and connection with my mom that I had been missing lately--when I share deeply with her and, because she knows me so well, she is able to further my insight and understanding of myself and help me to grow. I feel so connected to her now. I realize now that I think part of my resistance to using the 5 secrets with my mom was maybe a hidden emotion component--I had these deep feelings and worries about our relationship; I was confused if moving closer to her had actually helped our relationship or if it was harming it, and I was genuinely missing these kinds of deep, connecting conversations with her, which we had not had in a while. My mom has been hanging out at my place all day today and now I notice myself being easily loving and patient with her and my being "particular" about my things and my space has vanished--at least temporarily! There are a lot of take-aways for me from this whole thing, but one of the biggest ones is that I think I was trying to do five secrets without really fully going into my "I feel" statements as much as I needed to--I feel statements are often the secret that I neglect the most as a person and as a therapist. So, to connect to what we are doing this week in class, I think I would make a guess that when I ignore the five secret that I need to do the most and struggle with, it can hamper my ability to do the rest of the five secrets effectively and genuinely. I could write a lot more about all of this, but I think I will stop here for now. I hope this wasn't too confusing as I know I touched on a lot of different things. Thank you all for your time and attention. I'm open to comments or questions. Warmly, Zeina Here is a reply to Zeina from one of the Stanford Tuesday group members Gosh! Zeina, this is beautiful and so straight from the heart. Takes immense courage to do a deep dive in exploring oneself. I have been marveling at how meticulously you‘ve sifted through and worked towards addressing the different dimensions of the relationship between you and your mum. You are also an amazing raconteur, you've brought out the subtle nuances so beautifully! Your mail took me on an emotional roller coaster ride. It was such a compelling read and had me as a captive co-traveler, holding my breath, and crossing my fingers! I loved your insights on the “I feel”. Reading that was a personal breakthrough for me, where my relationship with my mum is concerned. That's exactly what is missing in our relationship too … whoaaaaa! I just don't share my feelings with her! I love how you were able to do that though, because I can feel this huge wave of resistance engulfing me, despite my insight. I know I'm not yet ready to take the next step! Funny, how tough it can be to be vulnerable before one's own mom! More power to you Zeina for ‘daring greatly' and taking the next step after the Tuesday class. Also, for keeping us posted and for sharing with us in such a detailed manner, and in the process, helping us all learn and grow. Deep regards for your mum as well. She comes across as a tenacious mother of a tenacious daughter … if I may say so. Warmly, Nivedita. Here is a second follow-up from Zeina. Hello David, Jill and Tuesday group, I just wanted to send another update as my relationship with my mom has continued to evolve in quite beautiful and magical ways since I sent this last email.  It seems to me that maybe she has stopped criticizing me entirely--I'm not quite sure.  Maybe I need to pay more attention.  Perhaps if she does criticize me, she does it in a gentler way or maybe I am less sensitive to it.  All I know is that she has been wonderfully supportive of me in these past few weeks and we have not gotten into a single argument.  Our relationship suddenly seems easy in a way that I have never experienced before.  I am so profoundly grateful.  I know that we will probably relapse at some point and this may not last forever, but, now I know this is possible.  Now, I know my way back here.  I have always wanted a relationship like this with my mother, and I always thought it wasn't possible because of who she was as a person. Little did I know that to have the mother I always wanted, I needed to do the changing. I knew that the 5 secrets were powerful, but I had thought that their power was more confined to a single interaction or the moment when you use them.  I don't know that I have been especially good at practicing the 5 secrets with my mom lately, yet the effect seems to keep lasting and lasting. I am truly speechless at the profound transformation that has happened.  Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I would love any responses! Zeina Here is some of the feedback from the training group in the section, “What did you like the best about today's training session?” Jill's thoughtfulness in selecting the Forced Empathy technique over the Relationship Journal. Jill looked at what had worked in the past for Zeina and saw it as a potential strategy for her current concerns and the result was tremendously positive. I loved the training! I loved watching forced empathy and I began to empathize with a close relative simply by watching Zeina empathize with her mom. I was crying throughout. It is hard to describe how touched I was Zeina's honesty and her responses to forced empathy was amazing! Amazing personal work. Entire session was great learning experience for me. How Forced Empathy brought the shift in Zeina's way of thinking. I really enjoy witnessing the live sessions including this one with Zeina. Seeing how the totality of the model comes together in real time with the clinician's judgment and intuition guiding the specific process is really enlightening and seeing someone's beliefs shift in real time is very inspiring and moving. It was a really nice way to re-join the larger group and I'm glad to hear that went into David's thinking in scheduling it. I really like the Forced Empathy. Zeina had a lot of resistance at the beginning. However, She shed tears during doing the Forced Empathy. I also like the role reversal when doing the Externalization voices. I can always learn how to deal with the difficulties of life from David and Jill's wisdom. The whole thing was so great. I was really moved by the forced empathy. I always LOVE seeing forced empathy modeled to get better at this complex skill, and I am also, like many others, almost always blown away with how powerful it is. I also thought this was a great example of multiple paths (individual mood and relationship work) and multiple methods being all used in one two-hour session so skillful and masterful. I loved the open ended approach and the ongoing exploration until the goal was formed/explored/ discovered. For me, it was a demonstration of trust in the process. I especially liked David's "The Man From Mars" that seemed to me an amazing tool with sorting out the mess of relationship work. I also loved Forced Empathy especially here with the work on mother daughter's relationship. I am really intrigued to explore it for myself in regard to my relationship with my parents and my daughter. Seeing the whole encounter with Zeina and seeing how Jill and David thought through it together, it was all so organic and incredible to witness Very helpful to see the progression of the session. Zeina's session has been a gift not only to us, but also to our mothers. Forced empathy felt like a pivot point in treatment and I loved that Z was able to go deep and connect with her mother's feelings. I have plans to travel and visit my mother next month and have been feeling anxious about it. I was reminded of the unconditional love of a mother that is beautiful and spiritual. David and Jill did amazing and transformational work. This is so inspiring! I liked everything and how the methods and techniques were woven together very skillfully. Personal work is really the best and so gratifying to see. David made a comment at the end about how it would help with motivation to use the skills and work more on them after seeing them in action and I do agree with his comment even if I'm totally not paraphrasing correctly. I LOVE personal work because it bring these skills to life in a way that role plays don't. and of course, it's all the better that someone gets a personal benefit, that's all good too. David and Jill did an amazing job again! However, Zeina's honesty and vulnerability was the greatest gift during this session. I could relate to her struggle as well, so I was extra impressed about her determination to work on this issue. It was amazing personal work for me. I feel so grateful for this experience. This was another example of the "magic" of TEAM, especially when the therapists are the incredibly skilled Jill and David. What a great, vulnerable and poignant example of relationship issues with a parent. I was very impressed and moved by the power of the Forced Empathy technique. By Zeina's ability to feel into the point of view of her mother, and her insights and connections, especially around how the times of criticism can be seen as opportunities for greater acceptance and love. Moving and really beautiful personal work!!! I was moved to tears when Zeina cried her mother's tears during the Forced Empathy exercise and said "I need her to accept me as I am." Wow--that was so powerful! And as for so many others, this experience felt super relevant and helpful to me for one of my own important relationships, and I'm feeling excited to try out Sergio's approach on my own loved one. Forced Empathy: I loved all of it! So helpful and informative to witness live work. I immediately got why the “what's my grade?” question was skipped (since the use of the Forced empathy technique had yielded such powerful results). I am eager to try this with a particular client who is having similar issues with their mom. On a more personal level, I felt extremely close to Zeina and seeing how vulnerable and open she was willing to be. This has melted away a lot of my resistance in using the 5 secrets with my own mom. Thank you Zeina! I liked seeing the "visitor from Mars" used to uncover Zeina's thoughts when David was having trouble understanding what the issue was. It was great to see David feeling a little "lost" and see how he worked through that. Watching the Forced Empathy technique was amazing! I also appreciated when Jill offered several options for which direction to go and explained her rationale. I found it to be a helpful learning moment and also liked the warmth that came across. I saw my mom's critical behavior as coming from love-brought tears. Same for my Dad Zeina did really powerful and enlightening work! It was also a great learning experience to observe David & Jill. I have enjoyed listening to and learning wonderful techniques from Jill and David. I can definitely relate to parent's/child criticism conflict myself, so I have learned some methods of effective communication, empathy skills, especially the opposite empathy (where you step into the shoes of a person you have a conflict with) and learn to empathize strongly vs feeling frustrated and having blame thoughts I love every time we do personal work. I always learn and grow so much personally and professionally. Thank you, Zeina for this amazing gift, and thank you, David and Jill for your masterful work. I loved every moment of it! Amazing personal work! I enjoyed the entire process. I appreciated the partnership between David and Jill. I so appreciated Zeina's work and vulnerability. I like David's creative way of doing the Ind. Downward arrow using "man from Mars" perspective. I liked getting to see, again, the power of Forced Empathy, as it illuminated how we create the very behavior in the other, that we then complain about. I loved how Zeina surrendered to doing the Forced Empathy exercise with such wonderful openness. I loved the seamless way Dr Burns and Jill moved between the methods. And Zeina's courage to be vulnerable. Had an aha moment myself - of course her mother will criticize her because the last thing she wants is for Zeina to have disastrous finances like her own. It shows deep love and caring Another Master Class! I loved watching David and Jill working with Zeina. Change the Focus is just an amazing Method. I appreciate Zeina's vulnerable disclosures. Such generosity is much appreciated. This is an amazing group, and I feel privileged to learn from such sophisticated practitioners, who are so generous with their insights and decades' worth experiences. Some days I just can't believe my luck to be with such heartfelt, dedicated, compassionate and wise folks! I very specifically like seeing a long personal work session...the big picture seeing the whole session. Thank you! I learned so very much and how things smooth into each other as session progresses. It was great seeing Forced Empathy demonstrated as I've never seen it before and learned so much from the overall training with Zeina, David and Jill. So glad Zeina was willing to be so vulnerable; really appreciated at the end when she said she felt pressure to empathize with her mom if she was vulnerable with her and mom laid it on thick, was wondering the same exact thing in that very moment! Loved how David diffused that for her and put less pressure on how she would handle it! So grateful to be part of this awesome group where I am growing and learning every moment! The hi quality demonstration of Five Secrets empathy by David and Jill Jill's patience. David waiting for AHA MOMENTS and pointing them out and best of all ZEINA! Personal work is always insightful. I really like the forced empathy technique. I also enjoyed the display of creativity and flexibility of the team model. Amy would regularly explain that it was a model to be used creatively and it's exciting to know there is so much to learn. It can be adapted to each individual. Viewing therapy as a series of skills to learn rather than a step-by-step instructional book is what makes me really love TEAM. Loved how Dr Burns used the individual downward arrow so seamlessly during the empathy phase. Dr Burns empathy too was spot on when he said to Zeina that "she could not lean on her Mom." This one line was really powerful for me and resonated deeply. Loved Jill's internal solution as well as the forced empathy option along with the option of working on the good reasons not to do the 5 secrets. Jill was on a roll with her empathy ... "feels like you're walking on eggshells and don't know what will hurt her." I also liked Jill's disclosure about the times she gets critical with her boys are times when she is most concerned about them. Also liked Jill highlighting how Zeina practicing the Five Secrets was not working at a point because she was not using enough feeling empathy unlike as when doing the Forced Empathy  

Podcast 295: Forced Empathy: A Master Class--Part 1 of 2 Podcasts 294 (Part 1) and 295 (Part 2) Forced Empathy: A Master Class Today Dr. Jill Levitt and I do live work with Zeina Halim who has been experiencing some intense negative feelings because of her mother's criticisms of her. Zeina is a member of my weekly training group at Stanford and has appeared on the podcast on several previous occasions (Please provide numbers plus link to podcast page on website.) Zeina is one of our small group leaders in our Tuesday training group.  She works with teens and adults in-person in her office in Menlo Park and also provides tele-health sessions for clients living anywhere in California. Dr. Jill Levitt is the co-leader of my Tuesday training group at Stanford and will be my co-therapist today. We hope for some more of the “magic” that frequently appears when we do therapy together. Today's podcast will illustrate a number of teaching points, including these: Forced Empathy: We illustrate exactly how to use this powerful and sophisticated technique. When I first created this technique many years ago, I thought there would be little interest in it, so I rarely taught it in my workshops or training groups. In the past several years, an intense interest in this technique has emerged, so you will get to see exactly how it works. Five Secrets Resistance: There has been great interest in the Five Secrets of Effective Communication that are featured in my book, Feeling Good Together. When used skillfully, they can have a phenomenal effect on any troubled relationship. I am even aware of a case of a woman who was kidnapped at gunpoint by a violent serial rapist who planned to kill her. Out of desperation, she used the Five Secrets I had presented at a workshop he had just attended, and he let her go and turned himself in to the police. The Five Secrets literally saved her life. And yet, many of us stubbornly refuse to use the Five Secrets with family, friends and loved ones. Why do we fight against the very tools that would rapidly bring us peace, love and joy? And what can we do about our own internal “resistance”? The “inner” and “outer” solutions: Whenever you are involved in a conflict with someone, there are two battles raging at the same time. One is the “inner battle” with your own negative thoughts, telling you that you're no good, or that the other person is to blame, and the voice that powerfully urges you to do battle. We approach the “inner battle” with the familiar Daily Mood Log, that helps you pinpoint the distorted messages you are giving yourself. You will see that those messages—the way you talk to yourself when you're upset—are loaded with distortions; such as All-or-Nothing Thinking, Overgeneralizations, Mental Filtering, Discounting the Positive, Mind-Reading, Labeling, Should Statements and Hidden Should Statements, Emotional Reasoning, Other-Blame, and more. In today's session, we do battle with Zeina's distorted thoughts with the Externalization of Voices, arguably one of the most powerful psychotherapy tools ever created. The EAR Checklist / Relationship Journal. The “outer battle” involves the words you use when you respond to the other person's criticisms of you. Here we use the Relationship Journal, another super powerful tools that allows you to analyze your own statements with the EAR Checklist and see the shocking reality that you are creating the very conflict that you are complaining about so vigorously. This involves one of the “Great Death” of the self, which can be profoundly painful, but it also leads to liberation from your self-created misery and the chance for renewed love and connection with the person you feel so alienated from. Two-hour sessions. You can do far more in a single, two-hour session than in many 50 minute sessions scheduled at weekly intervals. I have often said that this is how I always do therapy, and if you have some therapy skills, this model is vastly more effective and cost-effective as well. It puts you under pressure to accomplish something today, right now, and not in the vague or distant future. Uncovering Techniques. You will see how you can use the Man from Mars Technique to uncover more of your patient's negative thoughts and core beliefs. This is just another way of doing the classical “Individual Downward Arrow Technique” that I developed way back in the 1970s. The Acceptance Paradoxes. There is a great deal of talk these days about Acceptance is being an important key in many schools of psychotherapy. But what is acceptance, and how do we teach it to our patients and colleagues? Today's session with Zeina, who has a great interest in Buddhist philosophy and practices, illustrates one of more than 20 paths to acceptance, and this one in particular will teach you the steps in accepting others, especially when you are desperately trying to change them and you are insisting that they “shouldn't” be the way they are! Self-acceptance is always about grasping a gigantic paradox—and that's why I've always called it the Acceptance Paradox, which states: Accepting yourself as you are, warts and all, is actually the greatest change a human being can make. Can you see why this is a paradox? It's because the very moment you accept yourself, everything about you and your world will appear to change. Now here's another acceptance paradox we will explore today. The very moment when you accept another person exactly as she or he is, that person will suddenly change. Of course, that is the exact opposite of what we usually do when we desperately keep trying to “change” them, a strategy that actually forces them to be the very monster you are trying so hard to destroy. By the way, do you know what the plural form of paradox is, when you combine Self- and Other-Acceptance? The plural form is called the Acceptance Paradise. T = Testing is crucial! You cannot do truly effective therapy without the T = Testing. You will find out EXACTLY how effective—or ineffective—you are in every session with every patient. When you listen to the podcasts, you can ask yourself questions like these: How effective are Jill and David being? Will they get good empathy and helpfulness ratings from Zeina? Will we see any reductions in Zeina's powerful negative feelings at the start of the session? Will she make a breakthrough in her relationship with her mother? At the end of the session, you will see the answers to these questions. And if you're a therapist, that kind of powerful and precise information will allow you to grow and learn as a therapist, especially if you approach the information with humility and respect for yourself and your patients. There is almost no limit to the evolution of your therapist skills if you use the T = Testing model I have developed. There is almost no chance for personal growth if you do not use these or similar assessment tools. However, the price of growth is steep. You have to be willing to see your own failures and errors at every session with every patient, and this will often be painful. But this is the pain that can lead to your own personal transformation along with the blossoming of your own superb therapy skills. Today, in Part 1 of the Zeina session, you will hear the T = Testing and E = Empathy parts of the session. Next week, in Part 2, you will hear the very brief A = Assessment of Resistance, which really only included the “Miracle Cure Question: ”What, really, are you, Zeina, hoping for in tonight's session?” You will also hear the amazing M = Methods portion, which will start with Forced Empathy, followed by Externalization of Voices and Five Secrets Practice, along with the final T = Testing and homework assignments for Zeina following the session. Rhonda, Jill, Zeina and I hope you enjoy the podcasts and learn a great deal from them. And we all want to thank you, Zeina for your courageous and brilliant work, sharing your inner self so openly and generously. I believe that sessions like the one our fans will witness today and next week have the potential to provide hope and healing to people around the world, not only today, but for decades to come. At least, that is my hope! I also want to thank you, Jill, for your extraordinary teaching and clinical skills, and for your brilliance and warmth. Thank you for tuning in! Rhonda, Zeina, and David Contact information for Jill and Zeina: please provide what you want to have included in the show notes. Here is a follow-up note from Zeina Hello David, Jill, and the Tuesday group, Boy, do I have an update for you all! So, at first, I struggled, and I was very worried to have to potentially send an update to the group that may have been disappointing. On Saturday, I saw my mom, and I shared with her the insights that I had in our session. She was appreciative, but I didn't feel very connected to her. I had talked with her about this while she and I were on a walk, and I wondered if maybe walking while talking was taking away some of the intimacy or connection that might have happened if we had been looking at each other while talking. I also noticed that while I was externally behaving somewhat better if my mom criticized me, internally, I still hadn't progressed very far. I would still feel very distant from her; and I still wasn't doing the five secrets. Today, on Sunday, I saw my mom again. While she did not criticize me, we still got into a little bit of an argument. I was a bit angry, but as I let myself cool off, I noticed myself feeling incredibly sad inside--like a sadness that had been building and building over the past few weeks. I tried to talk with my mom about it, but she resisted at first. We had a project that we were working on together today and she thought it would be better if we talked on another day and got back to our project; I insisted, however, and asked that we please talk today. I did not realize it at the time, but I think I had some major hidden emotion stuff happening with my mom (more on this later, perhaps some hidden sadness that was masquerading as anger). I shared with her that I had felt incredibly sad and genuinely worried about our relationship. I recently moved in order to live closer to her and see her more often, but I had noticed that almost every time she came over to visit me at my new place, we would get into an argument at least once. I shared that these arguments had really been weighing on me and worrying me. I also told her that I noticed that we would get into arguments when we were at my place, but not as much when I visited her at her place, maybe because I am so particular about how I like things to be at my place. She, then, said in a very gentle and loving way, "I think ‘particular' about your space is the operative word here." I realized that she was totally right, and I was so pleasantly surprised by how gentle and loving she was when she said it. Feeling encouraged by how the conversation was going, I shared more and said that I had noticed that I had become more sensitive around our arguments lately and that I was feeling very disconnected from her, and I didn't know how to get reconnected with her. I also shared that I had been feeling lonely in my life in general lately and made a guess that maybe my loneliness was making me expect more from our relationship. Additionally, I also guessed that I might be feeling more drained emotionally because I am doing more hours of therapy per week than I have ever done in my life, and maybe I had yet to find the right balance of how to recreate and regenerate my energy in my off-hours. I shed many tears all throughout this whole conversation. I checked in with myself and noticed that I was feeling more connected to my mom, but there felt like there was still more, particularly about my loneliness. This next paragraph might seem like a major tangent, but hang in there!--I promise it is all connected :) Then, I switched gears a little bit to share with her a different conversation and insight I had had in the past week or so about my recent feelings of loneliness. I had been having a conversation with my very dear friend, James, about how I had been feeling lonely, but was not feeling as drawn to connecting with most of my girlfriends, but only really drawn to my guy friends. Initially, I thought it was a male-female difference, but then I noticed that I was feeling drawn to my new friend Leigh Harrington, who is female. I realized that maybe the difference had more to do with the fact that almost all my male friends and Leigh were quite funny and playful people, whereas most of my girlfriends were more serious people. As for myself, I tend to be a more serious person and am not as funny or playful as many people. I realized that I was relying on other people for my laughter, playfulness and fun, rather than learning how to create that myself. Having just done some flirting training with Matthew May earlier that week, I saw that humor, like flirting, can be a learned skill and might have more to do with a willingness to take risks than an innate quality that people either have or don't have. I was feeling excited that I could learn to be funnier and flirtier and create more laughter in my life, instead of relying on other funny people for this. I shared all of this with my mom. She then went on to make a further connection that really blew me away. She said, "I bet if you start to be funnier and create more laughter for yourself and others, you will also start to feel less lonely." It felt so true! The times I feel most connected to people are when I am laughing with them. THIS is the kind of relationship and connection with my mom that I had been missing lately--when I share deeply with her and, because she knows me so well, she is able to further my insight and understanding of myself and help me to grow. I feel so connected to her now. I realize now that I think part of my resistance to using the 5 secrets with my mom was maybe a hidden emotion component--I had these deep feelings and worries about our relationship; I was confused if moving closer to her had actually helped our relationship or if it was harming it, and I was genuinely missing these kinds of deep, connecting conversations with her, which we had not had in a while. My mom has been hanging out at my place all day today and now I notice myself being easily loving and patient with her and my being "particular" about my things and my space has vanished--at least temporarily! There are a lot of take-aways for me from this whole thing, but one of the biggest ones is that I think I was trying to do five secrets without really fully going into my "I feel" statements as much as I needed to--I feel statements are often the secret that I neglect the most as a person and as a therapist. So, to connect to what we are doing this week in class, I think I would make a guess that when I ignore the five secret that I need to do the most and struggle with, it can hamper my ability to do the rest of the five secrets effectively and genuinely. I could write a lot more about all of this, but I think I will stop here for now. I hope this wasn't too confusing as I know I touched on a lot of different things. Thank you all for your time and attention. I'm open to comments or questions. Warmly, Zeina Here is a reply to Zeina from one of the Stanford Tuesday group members Gosh! Zeina, this is beautiful and so straight from the heart. Takes immense courage to do a deep dive in exploring oneself. I have been marveling at how meticulously you‘ve sifted through and worked towards addressing the different dimensions of the relationship between you and your mum. You are also an amazing raconteur, you've brought out the subtle nuances so beautifully! Your mail took me on an emotional roller coaster ride. It was such a compelling read and had me as a captive co-traveler, holding my breath, and crossing my fingers! I loved your insights on the “I feel”. Reading that was a personal breakthrough for me, where my relationship with my mum is concerned. That's exactly what is missing in our relationship too … whoaaaaa! I just don't share my feelings with her! I love how you were able to do that though, because I can feel this huge wave of resistance engulfing me, despite my insight. I know I'm not yet ready to take the next step! Funny, how tough it can be to be vulnerable before one's own mom! More power to you Zeina for ‘daring greatly' and taking the next step after the Tuesday class. Also, for keeping us posted and for sharing with us in such a detailed manner, and in the process, helping us all learn and grow. Deep regards for your mum as well. She comes across as a tenacious mother of a tenacious daughter … if I may say so. Warmly, Nivedita. Here is a second follow-up from Zeina. Hello David, Jill and Tuesday group, I just wanted to send another update as my relationship with my mom has continued to evolve in quite beautiful and magical ways since I sent this last email.  It seems to me that maybe she has stopped criticizing me entirely--I'm not quite sure.  Maybe I need to pay more attention.  Perhaps if she does criticize me, she does it in a gentler way or maybe I am less sensitive to it.  All I know is that she has been wonderfully supportive of me in these past few weeks and we have not gotten into a single argument.  Our relationship suddenly seems easy in a way that I have never experienced before.  I am so profoundly grateful.  I know that we will probably relapse at some point and this may not last forever, but, now I know this is possible.  Now, I know my way back here.  I have always wanted a relationship like this with my mother, and I always thought it wasn't possible because of who she was as a person. Little did I know that to have the mother I always wanted, I needed to do the changing. I knew that the 5 secrets were powerful, but I had thought that their power was more confined to a single interaction or the moment when you use them.  I don't know that I have been especially good at practicing the 5 secrets with my mom lately, yet the effect seems to keep lasting and lasting. I am truly speechless at the profound transformation that has happened.  Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I would love any responses! Zeina Here is some of the feedback from the training group in the section, “What did you like the best about today's training session?” Jill's thoughtfulness in selecting the Forced Empathy technique over the Relationship Journal. Jill looked at what had worked in the past for Zeina and saw it as a potential strategy for her current concerns and the result was tremendously positive. I loved the training! I loved watching forced empathy and I began to empathize with a close relative simply by watching Zeina empathize with her mom. I was crying throughout. It is hard to describe how touched I was Zeina's honesty and her responses to forced empathy was amazing! Amazing personal work. Entire session was great learning experience for me. How Forced Empathy brought the shift in Zeina's way of thinking. I really enjoy witnessing the live sessions including this one with Zeina. Seeing how the totality of the model comes together in real time with the clinician's judgment and intuition guiding the specific process is really enlightening and seeing someone's beliefs shift in real time is very inspiring and moving. It was a really nice way to re-join the larger group and I'm glad to hear that went into David's thinking in scheduling it. I really like the Forced Empathy. Zeina had a lot of resistance at the beginning. However, She shed tears during doing the Forced Empathy. I also like the role reversal when doing the Externalization voices. I can always learn how to deal with the difficulties of life from David and Jill's wisdom. The whole thing was so great. I was really moved by the forced empathy. I always LOVE seeing forced empathy modeled to get better at this complex skill, and I am also, like many others, almost always blown away with how powerful it is. I also thought this was a great example of multiple paths (individual mood and relationship work) and multiple methods being all used in one two-hour session so skillful and masterful. I loved the open ended approach and the ongoing exploration until the goal was formed/explored/ discovered. For me, it was a demonstration of trust in the process. I especially liked David's "The Man From Mars" that seemed to me an amazing tool with sorting out the mess of relationship work. I also loved Forced Empathy especially here with the work on mother daughter's relationship. I am really intrigued to explore it for myself in regard to my relationship with my parents and my daughter. Seeing the whole encounter with Zeina and seeing how Jill and David thought through it together, it was all so organic and incredible to witness Very helpful to see the progression of the session. Zeina's session has been a gift not only to us, but also to our mothers. Forced empathy felt like a pivot point in treatment and I loved that Z was able to go deep and connect with her mother's feelings. I have plans to travel and visit my mother next month and have been feeling anxious about it. I was reminded of the unconditional love of a mother that is beautiful and spiritual. David and Jill did amazing and transformational work. This is so inspiring! I liked everything and how the methods and techniques were woven together very skillfully. Personal work is really the best and so gratifying to see. David made a comment at the end about how it would help with motivation to use the skills and work more on them after seeing them in action and I do agree with his comment even if I'm totally not paraphrasing correctly. I LOVE personal work because it bring these skills to life in a way that role plays don't. and of course, it's all the better that someone gets a personal benefit, that's all good too. David and Jill did an amazing job again! However, Zeina's honesty and vulnerability was the greatest gift during this session. I could relate to her struggle as well, so I was extra impressed about her determination to work on this issue. It was amazing personal work for me. I feel so grateful for this experience. This was another example of the "magic" of TEAM, especially when the therapists are the incredibly skilled Jill and David. What a great, vulnerable and poignant example of relationship issues with a parent. I was very impressed and moved by the power of the Forced Empathy technique. By Zeina's ability to feel into the point of view of her mother, and her insights and connections, especially around how the times of criticism can be seen as opportunities for greater acceptance and love. Moving and really beautiful personal work!!! I was moved to tears when Zeina cried her mother's tears during the Forced Empathy exercise and said "I need her to accept me as I am." Wow--that was so powerful! And as for so many others, this experience felt super relevant and helpful to me for one of my own important relationships, and I'm feeling excited to try out Sergio's approach on my own loved one. Forced Empathy: I loved all of it! So helpful and informative to witness live work. I immediately got why the “what's my grade?” question was skipped (since the use of the Forced empathy technique had yielded such powerful results). I am eager to try this with a particular client who is having similar issues with their mom. On a more personal level, I felt extremely close to Zeina and seeing how vulnerable and open she was willing to be. This has melted away a lot of my resistance in using the 5 secrets with my own mom. Thank you Zeina! I liked seeing the "visitor from Mars" used to uncover Zeina's thoughts when David was having trouble understanding what the issue was. It was great to see David feeling a little "lost" and see how he worked through that. Watching the Forced Empathy technique was amazing! I also appreciated when Jill offered several options for which direction to go and explained her rationale. I found it to be a helpful learning moment and also liked the warmth that came across. I saw my mom's critical behavior as coming from love-brought tears. Same for my Dad Zeina did really powerful and enlightening work! It was also a great learning experience to observe David & Jill. I have enjoyed listening to and learning wonderful techniques from Jill and David. I can definitely relate to parent's/child criticism conflict myself, so I have learned some methods of effective communication, empathy skills, especially the opposite empathy (where you step into the shoes of a person you have a conflict with) and learn to empathize strongly vs feeling frustrated and having blame thoughts I love every time we do personal work. I always learn and grow so much personally and professionally. Thank you, Zeina for this amazing gift, and thank you, David and Jill for your masterful work. I loved every moment of it! Amazing personal work! I enjoyed the entire process. I appreciated the partnership between David and Jill. I so appreciated Zeina's work and vulnerability. I like David's creative way of doing the Ind. Downward arrow using "man from Mars" perspective. I liked getting to see, again, the power of Forced Empathy, as it illuminated how we create the very behavior in the other, that we then complain about. I loved how Zeina surrendered to doing the Forced Empathy exercise with such wonderful openness. I loved the seamless way Dr Burns and Jill moved between the methods. And Zeina's courage to be vulnerable. Had an aha moment myself - of course her mother will criticize her because the last thing she wants is for Zeina to have disastrous finances like her own. It shows deep love and caring Another Master Class! I loved watching David and Jill working with Zeina. Change the Focus is just an amazing Method. I appreciate Zeina's vulnerable disclosures. Such generosity is much appreciated. This is an amazing group, and I feel privileged to learn from such sophisticated practitioners, who are so generous with their insights and decades' worth experiences. Some days I just can't believe my luck to be with such heartfelt, dedicated, compassionate and wise folks! I very specifically like seeing a long personal work session...the big picture seeing the whole session. Thank you! I learned so very much and how things smooth into each other as session progresses. It was great seeing Forced Empathy demonstrated as I've never seen it before and learned so much from the overall training with Zeina, David and Jill. So glad Zeina was willing to be so vulnerable; really appreciated at the end when she said she felt pressure to empathize with her mom if she was vulnerable with her and mom laid it on thick, was wondering the same exact thing in that very moment! Loved how David diffused that for her and put less pressure on how she would handle it! So grateful to be part of this awesome group where I am growing and learning every moment! The high quality demonstration of Five Secrets empathy by David and Jill Jill's patience. David waiting for AHA MOMENTS and pointing them out and best of all ZEINA! Personal work is always insightful. I really like the forced empathy technique. I also enjoyed the display of creativity and flexibility of the team model. Amy would regularly explain that it was a model to be used creatively and it's exciting to know there is so much to learn. It can be adapted to each individual. Viewing therapy as a series of skills to learn rather than a step-by-step instructional book is what makes me really love TEAM. Loved how Dr Burns used the individual downward arrow so seamlessly during the empathy phase. Dr Burns empathy too was spot on when he said to Zeina that "she could not lean on her Mom." This one line was really powerful for me and resonated deeply. Loved Jill's internal solution as well as the forced empathy option along with the option of working on the good reasons not to do the 5 secrets. Jill was on a roll with her empathy ... "feels like you're walking on eggshells and don't know what will hurt her." I also liked Jill's disclosure about the times she gets critical with her boys are times when she is most concerned about them. Also liked Jill highlighting how Zeina practicing the Five Secrets was not working at a point because she was not using enough feeling empathy unlike as when doing the Forced Empathy  

Marti shares a presentation she did for The Good Book Club on maintaining relationships across difference divides. Clips of another podcast were shared. Here is a link to the full podcast episode from Neil Sattin's YouTube channel: https://youtu.be/O5PYe0XIMhY List of books referenced: Feeling Good and Feeling Good Together by David Burns Braving the Wilderness by Brené Brown Bridges by David Ostler How To Have Impossible Conversations by James A. Lindsay and Peter Boghossian The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt   To join or find out more information about The Good Book Club: email thegoodbookclub@mail.com   Practice listening at 3practices.com or bridgeslds.com https://wherewillyougo.net/  is Marti's podcast and can be found on podcast apps as well. 

In this episode I'm bringing you the incredible Ashley Machado. Ashley grew up in the dairy industry and is now a wife to a calf rancher and almond farmer in California. She has her B.A in Human Development, and Masters in Social Work with an emphasis in Clinical Mental Health. Ashley is rethinking the way we support Mental Health in the ag industry and specializes in breaking down big ideas and deep feelings into simple and actionable strategies for ag families and businesses alike. Her goal is for everyone in the ag industry and rural America to have the tools they need in their mental health toolbox to live life fully by talking about things like anxiety, self-growth, relationships, and communication.   In this episode, we'll chat about: Mental health in the agriculture industry and the stigma around it  The difference between formal therapy vs. talking to your friend/mom Mental health tools to have in your tool box That life can be two things at once; beautiful and messy, hard and good - and to let yourself feel all the feelings that come along with it Communication and relationships Learning and re-learning lessons but in different contexts of life   Make sure to hit subscribe so you don't miss out on future episodes. If you like what you heard, take a moment to leave a 5-star review!   Find the complete show notes here: https://www.coachkiah.com/blog/destigmatizing-mental-health-with-ashley-machado   Visit Ashley's website: www.melaroseacres.com.  Click here to join Ashley's newsletter and be the first to hear about the workshop: https://view.flodesk.com/pages/6201ae0a6114df05454c5aca!  Connect with Ashley on Instagram @byashleymachado  Feeling Good Together by Dr. David Burns: https://amzn.to/3whzXJH [affiliate link] Daring Greatly by Brene Brown: https://amzn.to/3vUXWzB [affiliate link] FREE Habit Tracker: https://www.coachkiahcommunity.com/healthy-habits Shop Spark*l Bands (Use Code Kiah10 for 10% off) [affiliate link] https://sparklbands.com/?afmc=Kiah10&utm_campaign=Kiah10&utm_source=leaddyno&utm_medium=affiliate Check out the Backroad Cowgirls site: https://www.backroadcowgirls.com/ Shop the Coach Kiah Store https://www.shopcoachkiah.com. Use code climb10 for 10% off your first purchase! Let's hang out on social media and keep the conversation going! Connect with me on Instagram @coach_kiah and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/coachkiah.   Some of the links mentioned above are affiliate links, which help to support this podcast at no additional cost to you.

Marti shares a presentation she did for The Good Book Club on maintaining relationships across difference divides. Clips of another podcast were shared. Here is a link to the full podcast episode from Neil Sattin's YouTube channel: https://youtu.be/O5PYe0XIMhY List of books referenced: Feeling Good and Feeling Good Together by David Burns Braving the Wilderness by… Read More »Where Will You Go – 008 – Relationships Across Difference Divides The post Where Will You Go – 008 – Relationships Across Difference Divides appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

Podcast #280: A Beloved and Brilliant Voice from the Past: Dr. Stirling Moorey! Rhonda and I are thrilled to welcome Dr. Stirling Moorey, from London, England, to today's podcast. Stirling was one of my first students, and he sat in with me my on all my sessions as a co-therapist for a month for two summers in the late 1970s. I wrote about Stirling in my first book, Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy, which was published in 1980. One of the miracles of the internet, and zoom, is the chance to reunite with friends and colleagues from the past. Needless to say, Rhonda and I were SO EXCITED when Stirling accepted the invitation to join us! Rhonda starts the podcast by saying that “Dr. Stirling Moorey had the good fortune to be trained and supervised by two pioneers in the field of cognitive therapy, Drs. Aaron Beck and David Burns. In 1979, when Stirling was still in medical school in London, he did an elective with Dr. Aaron Beck at the Centre for Cognitive Therapy in Philadelphia.“ I (David) might put it a bit differently. I would say that during the early days of cognitive therapy, I had the fantastic opportunity to do co-therapy together with Stirling with many patients. I learned a tremendous amount from Stirling, even though I was, in theory, the “expert” and he, in theory, was a totally untrained and green novice. But he was phenomenal right out of the gates, and those months were among the happiest of my life. What I learned by observing Stirling's superb interactions with my patients eventually morphed into my Five Secrets of Effective Communication and my first book, Feeling Good Together! Rhonda continues: "Stirling was one of the first British therapists to study CBT when that discipline was in its infancy. David described their fantastic collaborative work with Stirling in Feeling Good, and has described Stirling's brilliant empathy skills in dozens of workshops. Stirling is currently a Consultant Psychiatrist in Cognitive Behaviour Therapy, and was the Professional Head of Psychotherapy for the South London and Maudsley Trust from 2005-2013. He has been a Visiting Senior Lecturer at the Institute of Psychiatry, Psychology & Neuroscience in London." Stirling is a highly regarded therapist, trainer / supervisor / teacher and workshop leader. His main research interest is in the application of CBT to life threatening illness and adversity. He was one of the first therapists to develop CBT for people with cancer and has contributed to five randomized controlled trials in both early and late stage cancer. Stirling is also co-author with Steven Greer of The Oxford Guide to CBT for People with Cancer, and has co-edited a book entitled The Therapeutic Relationship in Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, published by SAGE (Moorey & Lavender, eds.) During today's podcast, Stirling reminds us that one of the aims of cognitive therapy is encouraging patients to examine their distorted negative thoughts and self-defeating beliefs in a way that is not threatening. If patients don't feel validated, they may feel attacked and become defensive, which, of course, can undermine the therapist's effectiveness. He also reminded us that the grandfather of cognitive therapy, the late Dr. Albert Ellis from New York, often attacked the beliefs of his patients in a somewhat aggressive manner, and that this can frequently trigger therapeutic resistance. In fact, an overly aggressive therapeutic style can split patients and colleagues into two camps: those who love you, and those who may stubbornly resist and oppose you. During the podcast, we reminisced a bit on shared memories, and Stirling said that “David took me under his wing with such willingness to share his knowledge and experience . . . and I was just an ordinary medical student. We had many great moments!” Although Stirling was tempted to relocate to America, he decided to remain in England, and has never regretted that decision. For one thing, he met and married his beloved Magda. My own wife, Melanie, and I were honored to take our two kids to England to attend their marriage. We all loved England and had a ball! Magda, Stirling's wife We discussed some of Stirling's amazing work with the patients we saw together in Philadelphia, as well as his visit one summer when we were in California visiting with Melanie's parents in Los Altos, where we now live. Stirling recalled that when we were out shopping one day, my wife and I tried to persuade him to purchase a large Stetson hat, but he resisted! Stirling described the three ways in which he encourages people to change their negative thoughts using the Socratic Technique of gentle questioning: he  asks if the negative thoughts are realistic, if they are helpful, and if an alternative perspective can be taken. The reality testing approach focuses on the important differences between healthy negative feelings, like healthy sadness or grief, which don't usually need any treatment, and unhealthy negative feelings like depression, or a panic attack. One key difference is that healthy negative feelings always result from valid, undistorted thoughts. For example, if a loved one dies, you may tell yourself, “I still love him with all my heart, and I'll miss the many wonderful times we spent together.” In contrast, unhealthy negative feelings result from negative thoughts about the person who died that are distorted. For example, a young woman who's brother committed suicide told herself, “It's my fault he was depressed because our parents love me more when we were growing up. I should have know that he was considering suicide the day he died, so I, too, deserve to die.” Of course, the distorted thoughts don't have to result from a traumatic event. For example, a chronically depressed patient may tell himself, “I'm a loser, and I'll be depressed forever.” A more pragmatic treatment approach focuses less on whether thoughts are distorted or not, but rather on their effects. It's possible for a thought to be realistic but unhelpful. If a tightrope walker in the circus thinks during their act, ”If I fall I will die,” this may be realistic but not very helpful! Stirling talked about how the third way to look at changing thoughts is based on the fact that our lives always have a narrative—a story we tell ourselves about what has happened, or what is happening right now in our lives. These stories can have a powerful impact on how we all think, feel, and behave, and may often function as self-fulfilling prophecies. We can change these stories to make them more adaptive for us. For instance, rather than seeing the glass as half empty, we can see it as both half empty and half full; or we may choose to focus on what you can control vs. what you can't. What I've written so far are just some general ideas, summaries of things that we talked about on the podcast. But when you listen to the podcast, you will perhaps notice the warmth, richness, and depth in the way Stirling thinks and communicates. Then you will “see” and experience his true genius and his immense compassion! We hope that we can entice Stirling to present to one of our free weekly training groups, and perhaps even see if he might agree to do another co-therapy sessions with me that we can publish on a podcast, so you can actually see and experience this master therapist in action! Rhonda, Stirling and David

Here are the questions for today's Ask David, featuring special guest, back by popular demand, the extraordinary Dr. Matt May, and of course, our super-special hostess, Dr. Rhonda Barovsky! Why is my dad the way he is? Why are people the way they are? What can you do about positive distortions? More Should Statements! How can you talk to someone who refuses to talk to you?   Why is my dad the way he is? Why are people the way they are? Hi Dr. Burns and Dr. Barovsky! I love your show. Keep up the good work! I'd deeply appreciate your time and insight. My dad is 70, my mom is 67, and I'm 38. Throughout my life my dad has done things like he did earlier tonight. I was at my parent's house and my mom was telling me how Thanksgiving was going to be at my parent's cabin with the whole family like we have in years past at which my point my dad firmly said "No." My mom asked "Why?" and he just shook his head and shortly after walked out of the room to go to the bathroom, shut the door, and said "no" angrily three times in the other room to himself but loud enough for she could hear. He'll seemingly randomly act extremely possessive by angrily forbidding family get togethers, or my mom from doing things, or family to borrow things. He'll just say "No" without further explanation. Always, always, upon asking "Why?" to his "no." He'll either say angrily, "Because I said so!", say nothing, or just repeat "No" further. My mom says sometimes "Can you just gave me a reason?" and it's the same "No", silence, or "because I said so." I don't jump into the aforementioned back and fourth communication because I know such a person can't be changed and don't want to make an argumentative mess. He's never displayed any comfort with expressing the slightest vulnerability. He's very, very silent. All of my life he has displayed bullying type tendencies. Whenever I visit my parents he always shows tremendous eagerness to want to scowl and berate people for the tiniest mistakes (even people he doesn't know in public, like cashiers.) I think even the most skilled of five secrets practitioners might be outmatched. My mom tonight, and all my life, has asked me why is he like this? I've been haunted to try understand this question all my whole life too. So, I'm putting the question to you Dr. Burns and Dr. Barovsky: Why is someone like this? You must've heard of similar situations and have insight? I want to feel compassion and understanding for him. I don't want to live with baggage. And mainly, mainly I just want to relieve myself from anger thinking should, labeling, and overgeneralizing thoughts like "He shouldn't act like this", "He shouldn't be such a bully", "He's being a jerk." Thank you, Mark David's Reply Thanks, Mark, I can certainly understand your sadness, frustration, and anger, as well as your love and concern for your mom. Scientists don't yet know why people are the way they are. My focus is on helping people at specific moments of interaction when they want help. You have not asked for help in this email. I do make this type of statement in practically every Ask David episode, but have not had much luck in getting people to listen, because the general questions that have no answers keep rolling in. You say that your dad cannot change. To my ear, this statement is both blaming and untrue. People change at every moment of every day. The real question I always have is this, and it might not interest you. Do YOU want to change the way you interact with him? You and your mom probably both do things that trigger him, like silence, or asking WHY when it is abundantly clear that this response has a 100% guarantee of triggering him. I apologize if this is not the answer you were looking for! David   What can you do about positive distortions? How much information is there in the book (or a particular podcast) on how we address positive distortions most effectively? It is mentioned briefly that these can be more difficult to overcome, because of the more positively perceived "benefits", which may also be re-enforced externally (such as "yes, he is such a nice person, nobody wants him to express any frustration or anger occasionally - not even he himself want to do this!"). It affects motivation to any change, or, at least, creates ambivalence. Some more on this would be great, please. Thanks, Tillerich David's Reply Hi Tillerich, Good question, and I will schedule it for an Ask David. As you point out, there usually isn't much motivation for change when it comes to positive distortions. Positive distortions trigger habits and addictions, violence, mania, marital conflicts, and narcissism, to name just a few areas. Each is handled differently, but dealing with motivation / resistance is key in every area. David   More Should Statements Johnny asks: Can you help me disprove my negative thoughts? I manage to disprove them, but they return after a few hours. “A loser is someone who lives at home with his parents after he turns 18.” “I should be bold, confident, and secure.” “I should be better than I am.” David's Reply Hi Johnny, Sorry you've been struggling. The first thing to do is A = Assessment of Resistance, since resistance is the key to nearly all therapeutic failure. Tools would include the Paradoxical Invitation followed by the “Miracle Cure” question: What are you hoping for? What kinds of changes are you asking for? This is important. For example, you mentioned a problem with procrastination. If you have a procrastination problem, the strategies would be completely different. Other tools at the “A” portion of the session would probably include The Magic Button Positive Reframing The Magic Dial The Acid Test. If you decide that you actually DO want to change the way you think and feel, given the fact that you're still living at home, a few of the many methods that could be used include: Identify the Distortions Explain the Distortions Individual Downward Arrow Technique Semantic Technique Cost-Benefit Analysis Let's Define Terms Be Specific Examine the Evidence. Double Standard Technique (DST): For example, would you say these things to someone else? Our son has been living with us for a while, but I don't think of him as “a loser!” My wife and I are actually happy to provide some support while he is sorting out what he wants to do next. Paradoxical DST Externalization of Voices with three strategies: Self-Defense Acceptance Paradox CAT (Counter-Attack Technique) There are many additional techniques that could be used. But first, the action would focus on resistance and motivation. Tackling the distorted thoughts before completing the “A” step is usually not a very good idea! David D. Burns, MD   How can you talk to someone who refuses to talk to you? Hi Dr. Burns, I came across your book and podcasts during a time in which I was having a hard time communicating with my adult son. They have helped me tremendously in acknowledging my part in the problem. While I've done a lot of work on my own self-esteem, anxiety and depression, sadly it has come a little too late as my son does not want to talk to me and we are estranged. Any thoughts or advice on how to reach out to a loved one in this situation? Now that I have been practicing for the 5 secrets I want to better connect with my son and work through our issues? Thanks, Shelly David's Reply Thanks, Shelly, I'm so sorry that you are estranged from your son. Have you done the written exercises in my book, Feeling Good Together? That's a good place to start, as this very topic is addressed in the chapter on how to talk to someone who refuses to talk to you. The method that can be helpful is called “Multiple Choice Empathy” or “Multiple Choice Disarming.” We will likely illustrate it on the show. Rhonda, Matt, and David  

272 Ask David, with Special Guest, Dr. Matthew May: Shoulds, Free Treatment, Blame, and More! Here are the questions for today's Ask David, featuring special guest, Dr. Matt May, and, of course, Dr. Rhonda Barovsky! How can I turn off my Shoulds!? Is there a downside to treating people for free? What's the difference between Feeling Great vs Feeling Good? Isn't it important to blame the other person when that person really IS to blame?  How can I turn off my Shoulds!? Nice podcast! (Maurice is referring to Part 2 of “I want to be a mother.”) It's refreshing to see that we sometimes mix our needs with wants. I also have a huge problem with regret and shame, saying to myself “I should be far more ahead in life.” “I should have dated more.” “I should have used my energy to create art and being productive.” I pinpointed the moment in my daily mood log, and it occurs usually when I compare myself with people online or with people in my friend group who seem to be far more ahead in life than me in terms of career and achievements or that they used their energy of their younger years more constructive than me because they didn't deal with depression. I tried the semantic method to soften my thoughts regarding my should statements but telling myself “I wish I did xyz,” is carrying the same weight of regret as when I “should” myself. These thoughts also seem very realistic to me and pinpointing the distortions in them is not helping me much because there is so much resistance and weight to the thought, plus the positive thought that I subsequently come up with does not crush the negative thought. I often ask myself: ”Am I really a failure?” Maurice David's Reply Thanks, Maurice You are struggling with resistance, which is the cause of virtually all therapeutic failure. You can use Search on my website to look up podcasts on Positive Reframing, Assessment of Resistance, and Paradoxical Agenda Setting. I usually select ten to fifteen or more methods to crush any Negative Thought, but would only use them after the resistance issue has been successfully addressed. For example, we could use “Let's Define Terms,” as one of 15 or 20 potentially helpful techniques. It might go like this: Is “a failure” someone who fails all the time, or someone who fails some of the time. If you say, “some the time,” then we're all “failures,” so we don't need to worry about it. If you say, “all the time,” then no one is a “failure,” so we don't need to worry about it. If that technique is not effective, we'd have tons more to try. You can read one of my books, like Feeling Good or Feeling Great, to learn more about the Assessment of Resistance and the use of various techniques to crush distorted thoughts. Might also use this on an Ask David. Can use a fake first name, too, if you like. Please advise. david   Is there a downside to treating people for free? Dear David and Rhonda, I live in England, and I'm close friends with a team CBT therapist in Bristol (Andy Perrson), and I've been listening to your podcasts for the last year. I have found them to be stimulating, thought-provoking, often really humorous but above all enormously helpful in helping me journey with other people. I have just embarked on counselling training and would love to steer myself down the same avenues as my friend Andy. I'd also like to use your methodology at a later date. In the meantime, I have a question for you. I am conscious that almost all of your work now is done on a free, pro bono basis. I think that would be my preference as well especially as I have managed to cover the economics of life from other things and it would remove any feeling of conflict, or ambiguity around my motivations in helping people. But, I am also aware that there are so many advantages in there being a financial commitment from clients. Sadly, things that are free and that spring from generosity are not always valued by the recipient, things like commitment and timekeeping become relaxed. It can be awfully irritating for the therapist (a bit like making someone a cup of tea and them not drinking it), and probably a waste of time for the client. A bit like the example you often give around the outcomes for clients who don't do homework. I would be very interested in your view on this and on balance whether it is better to charge or not charge for treatment, in the scenario where a therapist does not have a desire to charge. David comment: I think the word “therapist” in the line above was supposed to be “patient.” I hope that makes sense. Thank you again to you and Rhonda for all your hard work. Kind regards Brad Askew (Bristol, England) David's Reply We can reply live on the podcast. The thrust might be that you can make patients accountable even if you treat them for free.   What's the difference between Feeling Great vs Feeling Good? Dear Dr Burns, First of all, thanks for the great work that you do and also all the podcasts you did, I am planning to order a copy of Feeling Great, your latest book. I have a quick question below. I have been searching the answer on the web but still can't find the answer. Does Feeling Great cover ALL the key concepts that were discussed in your previous book, Feeling Good? Or does one need to read BOTH books to get a fuller picture? I already own a copy of Feeling Good. However, if Feeling Great already covers all the concepts discussed in Feeling Good and also comes with updates, i may just order Feeling Great and start with that instead. Thanks. Best, Calvin David's Reply It really depends on the intensity of your interest. There is some overlap, but also significant differences. Even though Feeling Great is way newer, there are still tons of gems in Feeling Good. David   Isn't it important to blame the other person when that person really IS to blame? Hi David, I've been listening to the show for awhile. Thank you for everything you do. I just listened to episode 254, and I'm not quite sure what to think about it in the context of my situation. I think it makes sense that people are afraid to look at their own faults and what brings them to a relationship and what they contribute to a situation. And that they tend to want to blame the other person to avoid working on themselves. But what about situations of more extreme abuse? How do you not blame the other person? I recently got out of a relationship where I was raped. While in the relationship, there was a lot of coercive sex where he ignored my signals to stop and then afterwards told me that things happened because I had wanted them to. Eventually his behavior escalated to the point where he drugged and raped me while I was unconscious. It's only been 2 months since I figured out that the relationship was too unhealthy for me and left it. I've been in counseling 2-3 sessions per week since then. So at least I am working on myself. And I have no contact with him. Does that mean there is not a point in using the 5 secrets? Is that only for use on other people? But the things you said about blame rang true to me. I think I avoided working on my own issues for a long time, but this situation was like a giant neon arrow saying “work here!” I think I blame myself and him both. But I also worry about blaming myself too much—I think me blaming myself is one of the reasons I felt trapped and unable to leave the relationship in the first place. Because I felt at fault and ashamed of that, I didn't tell anyone for a long time and that normalized his behavior and allowed the relationship to continue and escalate to its extreme. By not placing enough blame on him, I also didn't consider that he might be acting selfishly, lying, or not have my best interests at heart. Which also led to the relationship continuing longer. So I am wary about where and how to place blame. Anyway, I don't know what else to say about this except that it has all been very emotionally difficult and I never want it to happen again, so I am diligently working on myself and looking for help in all the places. Thanks, Rachel David's Reply The thrust of the response could focus on the idea that Self-Blame and Other-Blame are both dysfunctional. I prefer the concept of accountability, and talk about this in Feeling Good Together, which might be helpful. I think Rachel is doing well to get help for herself and her own tendencies toward Self-Blame, and think that a lot of practice with the Five Secrets could also be tremendously helpful, especially for future relationships. David Rhonda, Matt, and David

Podcast 258: Doctor, I know you're secretly sexually attracted to me! / How to Agree with Criticisms that are Just Plain Wrong! Today's podcast features the incredibly brilliant and kindly Dr. Matthew May, who has become a semi-regular on the Feeling Good Podcast. Our show was the result of an email from Ana Teresa Silva, who is running a new and totally free weekly practice group for the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. If you want to learn those invaluable techniques, contact her immediately before they fill up at ana silva ateresasilva6@gmail.com. Her question had to do with the incredibly important Disarming Technique, which means finding the truth in a criticism, even when the criticism seems absolutely incorrect. I've posted her letter and my response at the end of these show notes. Today we tackled two kinds of incredibly difficult attacks, with lots of role-playing and (hopefully) useful feedback and teaching. One was the one listed in Ana's email, where you are accused of stealing money, but you didn't actually steal any money. So how can you agree with that? The other was perhaps even harder—what do you do when a patient accuses you of being sexually and secretly attracted to him / her? Matt, Rhonda and David illustrate a variety of strategies for responding with the Disarming Technique as well as the rest of the Five Secrets. The role-playing is challenging and immensely interesting! David emphasizes that if you want to learn the Five Secrets, three things are mandatory: An intense desire to learn. Humility. Tons of practice. David also emphasized the intense resistance nearly all humans have to all three components of EAR: E = Empathy A = Assertiveness R = Respect. I have attached a document listening 12  GOOD Reasons NOT to Listen, Not to Share Your Feelings, and NOT to treat the other person with respect. If you want to master the Five Secrets, my book, Feeling Good Together, will be an invaluable resource. If you read it, you MUST do the written exercises while reading to get any deep understanding of this approach. Simply reading will not “do it!” I want to thank Dr. May once again for hanging out with us today. In our next podcast with Dr. May, he will describe his work with a young professional woman who loved fly fishing but had an intense fear of leeches. Make sure you tune in, it will be extremely interesting, and his patient will join us, too! If you want to contact Dr. May, you can reach him at: Here's Ana's email: Hi, David. Hope you are recovering well!! I got stuck with the Disarming Technique. Last week, in the Five Secret Practice Group meeting, something came up and I didn`t know how to answer. How do we “disarm” someone who blames us for a very specific behaviour that is not true? For example: “Why did you steal my money from the drawer?” I thought we could try to find some truth in the attack noticing some reasons why the person could be mad at us or doesn`t trust us, or maybe we could ask if we did something to offend or upset her, but, at some point, we have to say that we didn't steal the money, right? And we`ll be defending ourselves. Can you help me with this? Thank you! I appreciate it. ana silva Ana Here's my response: Hi Ana, We'll do some practice on this on today's show. You might say, “I'm afraid I'll have to plead guilty to your criticism. Although I didn't and would never steal money from you, I clearly have done a terrible job of winning your trust and providing genuine warmth and support. “It's painful for me to hear how I've failed, and I feel ashamed, especially since I like you so much and value our friendship. I wouldn't be surprised if you're feeling angry, frustrated, and disappointed, and perhaps alone, too, and perhaps even anxious. “Can you tell me more about what happened, and how you feel, and all the ways I've let you down and come across as untrustworthy?” This is just a try, and the details will be different depending on who the person is and what the situation is. Hope this helps! Also, Podcast 161 might also be helpful. It's all about “hearing the music behind the words” (https://feelinggood.com/2019/10/07/161-listening-to-a-different-kind-of-music/) david Rhonda, Matt, and David (without Dr. Rutherford Knows) Rhonda and I are convinced that Dr. May is one of the greatest therapists on the planet earth. If you have a question or would like to contact Dr. May, please check out his website at: (www.matthewmaymd.com) Dr. Rhonda Barovsky practices in Walnut Creek, California, but due to Covid-19 restrictions is working via Zoom, and can be reached at rhonda@feelinggreattherapycenter.com. She is a Level 4 Certified TEAM-CBT therapist and trainer and specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, and relationship problems. Check out her new website: www.feelinggreattherapycenter.com. You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.

235: Anger in Marriage Several months ago. a professional dancer named Brian emailed me with an Ask David question on how to deal with anger in marriage using the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. I was pretty excited because anger in marriage is a problem nearly everyone can identify with, and something we all need some help with! Brian and his family Brian said that he and his wife, Michelle, have been married since 2009, and while he loves Michelle a great deal, their relationship runs hot and cold, with frequent angry clashes. I asked Brian for a specific example, including a partially filled out Relationship Journal (RJ), so I could get some details on what his wife said to him, and what, exactly, he said next, during one of their conflicts. Brian and his wife, Michelle The analysis of this exchange will provide us with a crystal clear example of the type of problem they are struggling with, along with the opportunity to pinpoint the specific errors Brian is making in responding to his wife’s criticisms. In the example he sent, she said that he wasn’t doing enough to help put the kids to bed one night, and he responded by saying nothing. He analyzed his response with the EAR technique from my book, Feeling Good Together. By ignoring her, it was obvious that failed on E = Empathy (he did not acknowledge how she felt), and A = Assertiveness (he did not share his feelings), and on R = Respect (he did not express any warmth, respect, or love for her.) He was able to see that this response will make the problem worse and force her to keep criticizing him. When he ignores her, she feels even more hurt, ignored, abandoned, and unloved. As a result, she’ll keep criticizing him since he hasn’t yet listened or “gotten it.” So although he feels like an innocent victim, he’s actually the secret creator of his own interpersonal reality. In other words, he forces her to do the very thing he’s complaining about. That’s the purpose of the Relationship Journal (RJ) —to help you see your own role in a conflict. It’s an amazing but pretty painful tool that’s potentially liberating. At my urging over the past several months, Brian worked really hard studying the Five Secrets of Effective Communication (LINK) and doing the written exercises in Feeling Good Together. After a rocky start, with some notable failures in his attempt to improve his interactions with his wife, he slowly began to “get it,” and their relationship began to improve a lot. Brian joins us today to describe his journey, and share his excitement about my first book, Feeling Good, as well as Feeling Good Together. I am really proud of what Brian has accomplished through commitment, practice, and hard work, as well as his courageous willingness to look at his own role in the problem. This is nearly always painful, and requires the “great death” of the “self,” or “ego.” During today’s podcast, we practiced with the “Intimacy Exercise.” This exercise can help you improve your skills with the Five Secrets. Here’s the way it works. To get things started, either Rhonda or David will play the role of Brian’s wife, and Brian will play the role of himself. We will criticize Brian in the way his wife sometimes criticizes him, and then he will respond, using the Five Secrets. For example, she recently said: “When I was on the phone with my best friend, you were rude and selfish, and making too much noise with the video you were creating.” Then he responded and we gave him a grade, and pointed out what he was doing right and what he was doing wrong that needed improvement. If you check your ego at the door, this can be a great, but challenging, way to learn! Brian gave himself a C on his response, which you’ll hear in the podcast, and Rhonda agreed. She also gave him a C. I gave him a B, as I thought he did some pretty cool things while making several errors. Here’s where he needed improvement. His use of the Disarming Technique needed upgrading. He didn’t strongly and directly endorse the truth in his wife’s criticism. For example, he might say something like this: “You’re right, I was being insensitive and selfish, and I’ve done that to you so often over the years.” His response would benefit from the inclusion of some “I Feel” Statements,” since it sounded a bit mechanical. For example, he might say, “I feel really sad and ashamed to hear you say that I was selfish and insensitive, because you’re absolutely right, and I love you so much.” There was no Stroking, and I included one way to do this in the “I Feel” response I just described. His Thought Empathy was good, but there was no Feeling Empathy. In other words, he did not mention how sad, hurt and angry his wife might be feeling. He did not finish with a sound use of Inquiry that would invite his wife to open up even more. For example, he could end by asking her to tell him more about how she feels when he’s being insensitive and selfish, and how hurt, angry, and lonely she might feel. Brian was non-defensive and open to this feedback. Then we did role reversals to give him the chance to try these new approaches and boost his grade. Here’s a comment he wanted me to share with you: Learning and implementing the 5 Secrets of Communication literally helped to save my marriage. The breakthrough came for me when I was really able to grab hold of Feeling Empathy, and really delve deep into understanding how my actions hurt my wife. This was one of the hardest challenges I've ever had in my life but the deeper I got into my wife's heart and mind, the more my anger dissipated and was replaced by empathy, warmth and love for my wife. I am no expert by any stretch of the imagination and in the podcast, both Rhonda and David went over some really cool role play to help sharpen my skills in the 5 Secrets. My hope is that by sharing my story it will help to provoke some helpful thoughts in the listener to help them continue to grow in their relationships. Brian Brian also said that he is a Christian, and loves Jesus, and that one thing he appreciates about the Five Secrets is that it is deeply connected to Christian teachings. For example, here’s a quotation from Matthew 7:3: “And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?” I strongly agree with Brian’s take on this, and believe that the Five Secrets of Effective Communication can be viewed as both a psychological and a spiritual tool. I would add that the Five Secrets, as well as all of the techniques in TEAM-CBT, are compatible with most if not all religious traditions. I have often said that the moment of profound change—the moment you recover from anxiety or depression, for example—will nearly always have a spiritual meaning, but the details of your interpretation will depend on your religious or philosophical upbringing. I like to emphasize this because my father was a Lutheran minister, but he seemed pretty suspicious of psychiatrists, thinking that psychiatry and religion were inherently at odds with one another. Some deeply religious people have seen me, as some kind of pariah, or enemy of religion. When I lived in Philadelphia, I went to Lancaster, Pa, on ten consecutive Saturday mornings to teach CBT at a beautiful religious hospital there. I enjoyed teaching their staff a number of new techniques for treating depression. They told me that one of the local evangelists had a Saturday morning radio show, and that whenever I came to town, he would say, “the snake has returned to Lancaster” on his show! I think it is because I quoted the Buddha on something, and some of the more conservative folks didn’t take kindly to that comment! I guess they thought that the Buddha was the same as the devil! I see religion and psychotherapy, in contrast, as synergistic. Although all of my work is totally secular, and based on research and clinical experience, the overlap of TEAM-CBT with all religious traditions is clear and unmistakable. I love it when clergymen, rabbis, or imams attend my workshops and point out the common grounds with what I’m teaching and their theological beliefs. We did more role playing during the podcast, as Brian also wanted to focus on his feelings of insecurity resulting from relentless self-critical thoughts, like, “I suck at dancing, so I’m worthless”. We used THE Externalization of Voices along with the Acceptance Paradox, the Self-Defense Paradigm, and the CAT (Counter-Attack Technique) to challenge his negative thoughts. We also used Positive Reframing to reduce his resistance to giving up his self-criticisms. We did a number of role plays with role reversals, just as we’d done earlier when practicing the Five Secrets. Brian was incredibly fun to work with, and Rhonda and I developed great affection and admiration from him. We’ll try to post some follow-up, too, once Brian has had the chance to listens to the audio with his wife We can perhaps get her responses to the show and include them in the show notes. There were at least two keys to the rapid progress Brian has made learning to use the Five Secrets of Effective Communication with very little input from me. He is very much in love with Michelle and intensely committed to improving their relationship. He has high standards and is willing to put in the work that is necessary to master the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, not only in his interactions with his wife, but also with people in general. He has also been willing to put in the work to learn to change the way he thinks and feels, so he can modify his internal dialogue as well as the way he communicates with others. Your internal and external dialogues will often fuel each other. You know that Brian is a professional dancer. Can you guess what he does for a living? I was surprised and delighted to learn that Brian runs a Break Dance School in Long Beach, California, for children, teens, and adults. Here is the link in case you want to contact him or sign up for some awesome break dance classes! Webreakdance.com Instagram.com/Webreak Here are some awesome video links you can watch: Webreak Soul Evolution Crew Performance: https://youtu.be/M4FzENnYXj4 Brian Breakdancing Solo: https://www.instagram.com/tv/CHjr8yXhGk7/?igshid=1341ipmr311ho

Stuck in conflict circles and need a way out!

Will Gowing talks to QVC presenter, Alison Keenan, about coping with grief, serious illness and relationships. Alison talks candidly about getting the right support to navigate her way through some of the difficult chapters in her life and what the power of hope means to her.

We have not had the chance to do a really good podcast on the Five Secrets of Effective Communication recently, so Rhonda and I jumped at the chance to do a podcast with a local executive we will call “Valentina” who is facing a severe challenge. How can she respond effectively to a ton of her colleagues who responded critically and angrily to one her first emails since being place in a top leadership role at work? They said that her email was harsh and accusatory, and sounded adversarial and provocative, and didn’t give a feeling of partnership or appreciation for all the hard work they were doing. Yikes! That’s pretty tough. And yet, my philosophy—in therapy, in family conflicts, and in work settings as well—is that your worst failure can often be your greatest opportunity in disguise. Is this true? Or just pie in the sky? Rhonda and I do a lot of role-playing and role reversals to (hopefully) show Valentina how to transform a humiliating professional failure into an enormous success. We’ll let you know how it works after we get some feedback from Valentina. We are both deeply indebted to Valentina for her courage in allowing us to talk about a problem that most of us encounter from time to time. I often receive harsh criticism, so I know how anxiety provoking it can be, especially when the criticisms come from authority figures! Valentina was wonderful to work with, and said she felt happiness and a sense of peace at the end of the podcast. It was great to see that! Let us know what you think about today’s podcast, and your own philosophy of how to respond to criticism skillfully and effectively. We alluded to, but did not delve deeply, into the opposite philosophy of arguing, defending yourself, and never apologizing. We’ve seen a lot of that in the past year on the evening news every day. Did the approach we modeled on today’s show seem inspiring and awesome? Or foolish and self-defeating? Thanks for listening! We hope you enjoyed today’s podcast and maybe learned something useful. For more information on the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, you can check out my book, Feeling Good Together, available in paperback on Amazon. Warmly, David and Rhonda

As part of our Feeling Good Together series, Will Gowing talks to wellbeing and Pilates expert, Marjolein Brugman. They discuss an accident which changed her life forever, how we can stay physically and mentally strong, as well as Marjolein’s journey with Aeropilates.

Will Gowing chats to Perricone brand ambassador, Karra Beck, about what wellbeing means to her. Karra shares her story of coping through serious illness, as well as her journey within the beauty industry.

As part of our Feeling Good Together series, Will Gowing speaks to Nicola Elliott, the founder of NEOM, which is a fantastic wellbeing brand. Nicola gets the conversation started about mental health and wellbeing, sharing lots of practical tips in this inspirational episode. 

If you’ve got big feelings going on - overwhelm, anxiety, depression, sadness, anger - how can you discover the valuable messages they contain, and then transform them rapidly into feeling good - or even great? In today’s episode, you’ll get to listen in as David Burns helps me bust through feelings of overwhelm - teaching me powerful techniques to dissolve negative thoughts. Along with getting an up-close and personal look at my inner world, you’ll also get to hear a master guide me through the process of silencing the inner chatter that gets in my way. David Burns is the author of the classic bestseller Feeling Good, and the soon-to-be-released, Feeling Great. His TEAM-CBT approach to therapy is a powerful way to stay centered and positive, no matter what’s going on in your world. If you want to listen to our first episode together, where David Burns and I spoke about how to apply his work in relationships (based on his book Feeling Good Together), here is a link to Episode 98: How to Stop Being a Victim - Feeling Good Together - with David Burns If you want to listen to our second episode together, where David Burns and I spoke about how to recognize and deal with cognitive distortions, here is a link to Episode 133: Change Your Thoughts, Change Your Life - Cognitive Distortions with David Burns And our most recent episode together, Episode 226, covers What Matters and What Doesn’t when it comes to making positive changes in your life and relationships. And, as always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you.  Join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it!  Sponsors: Find a quality therapist, online, to support you and work on the places where you’re stuck. For 10% off your first month, visit Betterhelp.com/ALIVE to fill out the quick questionnaire and get paired with a therapist who’s right for you. Resources:  Check out Dr. David Burns's website Read David’s classic books, Feeling Good or Ten Days To Self-Esteem Pre-Order David’s newest book: Feeling Great - The Revolutionary New Treatment for Depression and Anxiety FREE Relationship Communication Secrets Guide www.neilsattin.com/feelinggood4 Visit to download the transcript, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the transcript to this episode with David Burns, along with the Daily Mood Log. Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out Transcript: David Burns: So tell me about... We'll start out with some team therapy here... And you've got the things I sent you? Neil Sattin: I did, yeah. And can you turn your video on so I can see you? David Burns: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I don't know it wasn't on. Oh, yeah. Here we go. Yeah. There we go. Great. Neil Sattin: There you are. David Burns: Yeah. Okay. Tell me how you've been feeling? Neil Sattin: So I've been noticing that I've been feeling... I would characterize it as feeling overwhelmed, that there are too many things to organize. There's even a little bit more chaos in my life now with being confined, more or less to my home and having responsibility to homeschool my children. On top of that, there are a lot of projects that I'm trying to manage and those could be in my business and the podcasts and all of that. Or they could be personal projects like organizing my home or making sure I stay well-nourished and get enough exercise. So lately, I've been noticing that it just feels like the volume has become really loud and I would say that I've never been necessarily the most organized person from... If you had the perspective of organization, meaning everything is neat and tidy and you have your days planned out exactly how they're going to go, that's not me or my approach to organization. It's been generally a little bit more organic in how it unfolds. And that can work up to a certain level of complexity. But once things start to get more complex, I've been... Especially with the state of the world over the past few weeks, I've been just noticing that I want to shut down, instead of feeling like I'm really rising to that complexity with more resourcefulness. Yeah. David Burns: Before we go on, let me see if I got it right, because it sounds like what I was telling you, I have been confronting... Neil Sattin: Oh, yeah. David Burns: Recently. Neil Sattin: Yeah. David Burns: That you've been feeling overwhelmed, because you're just getting too many things that have to be organized. And now that you're confined to home, you've got homeschooling, which it takes a lot of energy and effort and personal projects and business projects, many of which are probably fun and exciting. But it just feels like the volume has become loud. You're... There's too much stuff happening. And then on top of that, you're feeling like you're not organized, that you don't work in that kind of obsessive manner, but at an intuitive organic manner. Just like today, for example and I do the same thing. I'm supposed to work on my app with some colleagues. I told them, "Well, I've got something really great going on here with Neil but I'll pick up with you later in the day". But that... And so I don't like to have a schedule. I like to work intuitively. In my office, I have things piled up all over in here. Neil Sattin: Out of view of the camera right now. Just... [chuckle] David Burns: Yeah, yeah. I could show you stacks, this high, on my desk of stuff but it's quasi organized, but I let it get disorganized and then once a week, I try to force myself to file things and then I feel much, much better. But I like to make things happen and just set things down, when I'm done with them. It sounds like a little of that is happening to you. You like things to unfold organically. Then when there's too much and everything gets complex and too demanding to keep up on top of all of these multiple things happening, at the same time, you feel like you just want to maybe shut down and escape. And maybe a little like myself. Sometimes I think, "Gee, do I need a nap? Do I need another fantastic podcast or a good podcast, or whatever"? Little Misty, a feral cat we adopted, she'll swing by and rub up against my legs and give me a meow saying, "Time for some candy or some lovees. Do you have some time, daddy"? I find myself feeling really torn and wanting to spend more time on some things of that level. Did I get it right so far? Neil Sattin: Yeah, yeah. Definitely. And right down to the... It ends up feeling a little bit like procrastination or the... Here's an example and this is just one of many things. I did two live events last year, that I mentioned to you. One: Terry Real came here to Portland, Maine and the other John and Julie Gottman came here and both of them I filmed and I've been wanting to get the films... The videos edited and out the door so that people can see them. Honestly, that could be a source of revenue for me to make up for the cost of filming both of those things. David Burns: Yeah. Neil Sattin: And the Gottman event... That's two-and-a-half hours. So really all I've needed to do is take two-and-a-half or three hours and sit down and watch it and come up with some notes and send them to my video guy. I've had that sitting on my desk, so to speak... My virtual desk since October, when the event happened. Obviously, I've had three hours, but I can think of a million other things I've done with my three hours. And I think when the volume increases like I was talking about, then so does the visibility of all the things that aren't getting done, like I start... And then it becomes really hard to prioritize because each thing calls loudly to me. Neil Sattin: Oh, there's this thing you haven't done that you could have done three months ago, and then there's this other thing, and for me, I end up just doing what I need to do. So every week I need to create a podcast. That's important to me and I've managed to do that, more or less, except for in the depths of when my marriage was ending. I had to stop for a minute or two there. But for the most part, I'm getting that done, but all the ways that I want to grow my practice and my work and just myself as a human, I end up feeling like I'm falling short. David Burns: Right. I'm sorry to hear about your marriage ending. I can imagine that was a source of angst and stress, but you're saying that in a way you feel like you're procrastinating, but what the issue is, is that you have all these creative things that you could do, like listen to the Gottman event up in Maine so that you could think about how to edit it and maybe market it, get some extra revenue. Could be exciting, generate interest among your fans, generate more fans. But there's so many of these maybe cool exciting things that you could be doing, you're noticing all these things that you could be doing there that you say they shout out to you, they're all worthwhile and interesting. But you find that you have to take what energy you have just to do the things you have to do, like doing the essentials, doing a podcast every week, and you're not feeling the motivation, or maybe even having the time and resources, to do probably a significant list of really cool things that you could be doing, probably most of which would be reasonably successful if not tremendously successful. Neil Sattin: Yeah, that's the dream, is that each of those things, they come with the allure of the impact that it could make or the... I think when I look at everything that I'm doing... I used the word "organic" earlier, and my life has evolved organically in a way that generally I look at and I think, "Wow, this is beautiful," and I look back at everything that's come together and woven its way together to create what happens now. I worked in technology for a long, long time, and so much of what I do now would have been a lot more challenging if I didn't have that background. And I can also look at each of these ideas and think, wow, that could be amazing or that could be a piece of this puzzle, and the puzzle starts to take shape in front of me, and that gets exciting. David Burns: I have an idea, let's not work together on any project, because that's what's happening to me too. And these things expand exponentially. All of your skills start coming together, and then you start thinking, wow, I could do this and I could do that and I could do this and I could do that. What you're saying is that there's an allure, a dream that your life has evolved organically and it's kinda coming to fruition on many different levels, and the things that you worked hard to learn are now available to be creating things that would just have a tremendous beneficial impact on others and benefits for yourself. But maybe you're saying, "Oh my gosh, do I really want to have to do all of that right now?" Neil Sattin: Right. There's some... Well, you know what, the voice that actually... That I hear is something like... I've never been able to be that organized, and so... It's like... I'm not sure I can. So it's almost like there's that hesitation... I'm trying to think of what the image is that's coming to me, but it's like... There are any number of starting gates, like there's the starting gate of finishing the projects or there's the starting gate of, let's just create a meal plan so that I'm a little... I feel a little bit more organized around my nutrition and nourishment. Any one of those starting gates, I find myself caught a moment before that where I'm like, wow, I could go that way, I could go that way... And even when I step up to one, I'm often hearing the call of the others. Neil Sattin: You talked about the magic button earlier in our conversation and for me, the magic button would be like the elf that somehow knows exactly where this is all going and just shows up every day with my daily agenda, and says, "You just do these things, and trust me, and it's all going to work out just fine." Neil Sattin: And all I would have to do is those things and everything that I wanted to get done would happen, and the structure to support my personal wellness, as well as the wellness of my clients and listeners and the wellness of my business and my children and that would just ripple out just from taking those actions. And what's funny is that I know that it all boils down to what you do in any given moment like, that's what life is, life is how you... What you do in this moment and then in the next moment. Sometimes that just feels like the biggest hurdle to me and it matters more now than ever because of that additional chaos that's in the system. David Burns: Yeah. So, in an ideal world that you're having a little elf bring you a Do-list every day, and the elf has figured out what are the essentials and the order in which to do them in order to fit everything in, and then it's all going to kind of ripple out and all these wonderful things are going to happen. But then you're saying, life is a Series of Moments and it's kind of hard for you to get on board and feel motivated to tackle all these things, because once you think of... Well, let's work on the starting gate, or let's create an eating plan. And then once you think about stepping up and working on that, you start hearing the call of all these other things that you should be doing and maybe end up feeling or getting a bit paralyzed. Can I suggest we switch just temporarily to The Daily Mood Log? Do you have one there? And at the top it says, "upsetting event" and that could just be like, could be this morning or right now or you know. Neil Sattin: Yeah, I would, for an upsetting event let's just say, an upsetting event would be a day that's gone by where I didn't... Where I feel like I didn't get enough done. David Burns: Okay, okay, so is that right now, feeling like yesterday, you didn't get enough done? Neil Sattin: Sure. David Burns: Okay, so put that on the upsetting event, day when I didn't, I didn't get enough done and just write that down. Neil Sattin: Yeah, I'm actually... David Burns: You did already? Neil Sattin: I didn't yet, but I'm opening this in a little PDF editor things that I can... David Burns: Oh, okay. Neil Sattin: Edit and write on the document, so... David Burns: Okay, great. Neil Sattin: Yeah. David Burns: And then, do you see... That's an obviously upsetting event but now we want to see what your emotions are, and the first category is sad, blue, depressed, down, unhappy. Were you feeling some of those? Neil Sattin: Definitely. David Burns: Tell me me which ones and I'll circle them or maybe you can circle them or highlight them. Neil Sattin: Yeah, I would say kind of down and unhappy. Those... David Burns: And how strong are those between zero and a hundred? Neil Sattin: So yeah, at the end of a day, I'd say it's like an 85 or 90. David Burns: Okay then, put 85-90, in the "percent now column." Neil Sattin: Okay. David Burns: And see that's important because, just a minor point, you're such a warm, upbeat person. Neil Sattin: Yeah. David Burns: So people interacting with you wouldn't know that you're feeling that unhappy inside, that's why it's great to measure 'cause that's almost, most intense unhappiness a human being can have. Do you feel anxious, worried, panicky, nervous or frightened? Neil Sattin: Yes. [laughter] David Burns: Okay. All of them? Neil Sattin: Yeah. I mean, if I touch in to worried, maybe a little less worried a little more on the panicky side, a little more on the nervous side a little less on the frightened side. David Burns: Yeah. Neil Sattin: But it's all definitely there. David Burns: And anxious? Neil Sattin: Yeah, anxious for sure. David Burns: And how strong does that get between the 80... Zero and a hundred? Neil Sattin: I would say... Well, if I compare that to sadness, I would have actually said that that's a little bit more. David Burns: Sure. Neil Sattin: So maybe the sadness is more like 80 to 85 and then the anxious is more like 85 to 90, but... David Burns: Okay. Neil Sattin: At the end of the day when I'm feeling that feeling of like, "Oh I didn't get enough done." Then yeah, there's kind of, the sadness that comes with that and then, yeah, there's the anxiety of like, "I work for myself and I'm also in charge of my own showing up for my life." And yeah, there's that sense of like, "Oh, if I don't do this, no one's going to do this for me." So it's all dependent on me. Yeah. So right, that was a long-winded way of saying 85 to 90 as well. David Burns: Great, great! Now, do you feel guilty, remorseful, bad, or ashamed? Neil Sattin: Yeah, I would say... Probably, mostly... Yeah, there's definitely... You're a capable person, you should be able to do this and figure this out. David Burns: By the way, I'm also writing down negative thoughts in the negative thought column and I just wrote down, "I should be able to do this and figure this out." And when that thought goes through your mind, how strongly do you believe it between zero and 100? Neil Sattin: That I believe I should be able to figure this out? David Burns: Mm-hmm. Neil Sattin: That's a 100, yeah, for sure. David Burns: Okay, so I'm going to put 100 in the percent now column, the belief column. And again, you were about to tell me how guilty, remorseful, bad or ashamed, do you have those feelings. Neil Sattin: I'm starting to feel guilty that these are also high. But yeah, I would just put that all, again, in 85 to 90. David Burns: Okay, great. Neil Sattin: I always feel like I've got the glimmer of... There is always that piece of me that's like, "It's all going to be okay, you're fine." So that still lives in those moments. David Burns: Sure, sure. But that's really intense, the guilt and shame and feeling bad. And then, do you feel inferior, worthless, inadequate, defective or incompetent. Neil Sattin: Shit, yeah, I do. David Burns: All of them or some of them or... Neil Sattin: No wonder this is so horrible. David Burns: Yep. Neil Sattin: Yeah, I wouldn't say worthless. I would say, it's probably inadequate, defective, not incompetent, yeah. David Burns: Okay. Neil Sattin: Somewhere in there. David Burns: How strong are those? Neil Sattin: That's more probably like the 65% to 70% range. David Burns: Okay, and do you feel lonely, unloved, unwanted, rejected, alone or abandoned? Neil Sattin: That, I do not feel as much. David Burns: Okay, we'll put a zero there. Do you feel embarrassed, foolish, humiliated or self-conscious? Neil Sattin: I would make that a 50. David Burns: Which feelings? Embarrassed, foolish, humiliated, self-conscious? Neil Sattin: Well, it's only in my own eyes. I don't think anyone else really... Except now, of course, everyone who's listening knows this is what Neil goes through at the end of a day where he hasn't got enough time... David Burns: This is very courageous... Neil Sattin: Yeah, this is the reality... David Burns: What you're doing. It'll be interesting to see what kind of feedback you get... Neil Sattin: Yeah. David Burns: I bet you'll get an overwhelming number of fan responses. Neil Sattin: We'll see. Yeah, so I would say embarrassed, not foolish, not so much self-conscious, but humiliated. Yeah, that's why it's sort of in that range. David Burns: Okay 50. Neil Sattin: Yeah, I'd say 50, yeah. David Burns: You feel hopeless, discouraged, pessimistic, despairing? Neil Sattin: Yeah, definitely not despairing, discouraged for sure. That's the one that jumps out of me most and... David Burns: How strong is that? Neil Sattin: I would say that's an 85. David Burns: Great, great. Neil Sattin: Yeah. David Burns: And then, do you feel... Oh, by the way, I could have recorded this at my end. Neil Sattin: I'm recording. David Burns: Okay. Then I could have sent you my recording, so you would have a local, higher quality. Neil Sattin: No, we're good, we're good, I think. David Burns: Okay, that's great. Neil Sattin: You're coming through loud and clear. David Burns: Oh, good. Do you feel frustrated, stuck, thwarted or defeated? Neil Sattin: That's probably like a 95%. David Burns: And all of those are... Neil Sattin: All of them, yeah. David Burns: Yeah, and do you feel angry, mad, resentful, annoyed, irritated, upset or furious? Neil Sattin: I'm annoyed and irritated. Yeah, and those are probably in the 70% range. David Burns: Right. Any other emotions that I haven't asked about? So far, we got sad and down and unhappy. We've got the whole anxiety cluster, intense. We've got the guilty and shame clusters, intense. A little inadequate and defective and a little embarrassed and humiliated quite a bit, actually, and very discouraged, 85 and frustrated, 95 and annoyed and irritated, 70. Anything else like overwhelmed? Neil Sattin: Yeah, I mean if we add overwhelmed in there, that would be super high if it gets its own category. David Burns: Yep. Neil Sattin: Yeah, I'd put that at 95%. David Burns: 95, great. Now, let me ask you what some of your negative thoughts are when you're feeling this way or even at this moment like you said, "I should be able to figure this out." And you believe that 100. You also said "No one will do this for me." That's probably not a distorted thought. I jotted it down. And then "I'm not sure I can be that organized." That's a good negative thought. How much do you believe that one? Neil Sattin: I would put that at probably 85%. David Burns: 85, great. And what are some more of your negative thoughts when you're feeling down, guilty, anxious, defective, embarrassed? Neil Sattin: Yeah, it would be things like I'm failing. David Burns: Failing, yeah. Neil Sattin: Yeah. David Burns: How much do you believe that one? Neil Sattin: In those moments? David Burns: Mm-hmm. Neil Sattin: That would be 90%-95%. David Burns: 95 and I wrote that down. "I'm failing." That's an excellent one. What are some more negative thoughts, things that you tell yourself? Neil Sattin: Oh good. I'm seeing, this goes on to another page. I was like "I'm going to run out of space." David Burns: We got more Daily Mood Logs too. Neil Sattin: Time. Like there's not enough time, or there's no way that I can... There's no way I will be able to do this is maybe. There's not enough time. They kinda overlap with each other a little bit. David Burns: You'll make that one thought, "There's not enough time and no way I can do all of this." How is that? Neil Sattin: Yeah. David Burns: And then how much do you believe that one? Neil Sattin: Yeah like 100. David Burns: Hundred. Sure. Neil Sattin: 100%. [chuckle] David Burns: Sure. And what are some more... That's kind of the discouraged thought and the frustrated thought. What's the inadequate and defective thought? Neil Sattin: Well, that I'm not capable of doing this, that's definitely the defective there is. David Burns: Yep, sure. Neil Sattin: Yeah. David Burns: Let's write that down number... That's thought number five I think. Neil Sattin: Yeah. David Burns: I'm not capable of doing this. And then, what is this defined as? Neil Sattin: This is... Okay, so this could be two things. This could be getting organized and executing on that. David Burns: Yeah, okay. Neil Sattin: Or this could be sort of the result, like I'm not capable of the success or the goals that I want. David Burns: Achieving my goals. Neil Sattin: Yeah. David Burns: Okay, great. And then that's a really well-stated one. And how much do you believe that between zero and 100, "I'm not capable of getting organized. I'm not capable of achieving my goals." Neil Sattin: In those moments, it's not how I live my day. Though I guess I do come in and out of that. It's so wild to just really kinda see that in front of me that way. I would put that in an 85 or 90. David Burns: Yeah 90. By the way, it's like going in and out of a trance. Like when you get in there it seems totally true. Neil Sattin: Yeah. David Burns: And then when you recover, it's such a radical shift. It's like you're in almost, you're in a different reality. Neil Sattin: Yeah, that makes sense to me. David Burns: Any other negative thoughts? We've got some super ones here. Neil Sattin: Let me just see if anything else jumps out at me. I don't know, this one feels kind of risky to say. My father was right. David Burns: Great, okay. And tell us what that means, how you're feeling right at this moment. Neil Sattin: Well, I can hear his voice at a young age accosting me around like, "You gotta figure this out. You gotta clean your room. You gotta get organized. You'll never succeed if you can't figure this out." I hear that. And on the flip side of it, there's a part of me that would love his blessing in terms of what I do with my life. And it might shock people to learn that I don't... I definitely haven't gotten it explicitly. Whether he does feel it and he's just keeping it to himself, that's possible. But my father, his career, he was a clinical psychologist, and there have just been a lot of times where I have wished that he could also see the value in what I do, and how I'm showing up in the world and how I'm contributing. David Burns: Is he still alive? Neil Sattin: He is. Yeah. David Burns: Do you feel sad when you think about that or angry or... Neil Sattin: Yeah, we could do a whole nother mood log on that one. [chuckle] David Burns: Sure. Neil Sattin: But yeah for sure, it's a source of sadness and anger that I've dealt with for most of my adult life. And because he's alive, I hold out the hope that at some point there will be some sort of redemption in that way, but it hasn't happened yet. David Burns: Yeah. Yeah. Neil Sattin: Yeah, there's a lot about... And just to be clear, I think I said this one other time when I talked about my dad on the show, I love him dearly, and then there are things about him that I just don't understand and that aren't... I may never understand them. There's a level of opaqueness in terms of how he lives his life and his choices and I guess I'm just... I would just like a little bit more from him, a little more engagement and support. David Burns: Well I feel sad and really close to you based on what you're saying right now, what you said the entire time we've been talking. And I can identify with it on a personal level too because I've been experiencing a little conflict with my own son. Just yesterday kind of erupted a little bit and we were both pretty angry with each other and feeling unappreciated and unloved and we're trying to talk it out a little bit. But there was such an explosive level of anger, like it wasn't working. And he also loves me a lot and really admires what I've done, but maybe doesn't always feel like his dad appreciates him. Very, very similar to what you're saying. And I was kind of at wits' end and very anxious and feeling kind of ashamed too and hurt. And he was sitting at the dining room table doing some work with a colleague and on an impulse, I know he likes physical touch, and so I just went up and started massaging his shoulders and he indicated he was really loving that and then I just kind of leaned over on his back and hugged him, and then he got up and turned around gave me a wonderful hug. David Burns: It was really a beautiful moment. And sometimes I think that out of intense anger, if you hang in there in a relationship, then really, really beautiful things can happen. But I'm sure it was so painful for him and has been painful for him to feel like his dad doesn't really appreciate him. And I'm so filled with admiration for him and his ethical qualities, his idealism, his incredible, technical skills, his love, his work ethic. But it's so easy for fathers and sons to disconnect and sometimes never connect. My dad was a Lutheran minister and he was... I just admired him when I was little and loved him so much and thought I'd be a minister. And then we kind of drifted apart and I began to see things that really hurt me and turned me off and so, we never really did reconcile. I felt kind of judged, and he was very rigid. And if you don't believe in Jesus, you're going to go to hell, and stuff that seemed harsh to me. But I'm sure you'll find a way to connect with your dad. But I can certainly identify with how incredibly painful that is for you and you have achieved such a fantastic amount - if a father could ever have a son to be proud of, you're the son and I can see you're hurting an awful lot. Neil Sattin: Thank you. Yeah. I just want to say too that the space exists between you and your son to be able to do that and that you would recognize his love language and show up in that way is such a gift. And it was really moving to hear you describe that. David Burns: I felt really lucky that that happened. Generally, there's a path to intimacy when you're upset with people. I have the philosophy, the more angry or hurt you feel with someone, the more fantastic potential for a loving connection and reconciliation and more, but it's like, what is the path? That's a conversation for another day. But, "My father was right," when you say that, how much believable is that? [laughter] Neil Sattin: Yeah, so in those... David Burns: Let me unplug my phone here. Sorry. I've just unplugged it. Yep. Neil Sattin: In those moments, "My father was right," that's 85 or so. David Burns: 85, sure. Yeah, I feel so close to you right now and I think many people are going to be touched by the reality and the openness and vulnerability you're bringing to this and probably to all of your podcasts. Any other negative thoughts? Neil Sattin: Well, the only other one that really jumps out for me would be something like, I'm going to be... I'll be unhealthy, weak and broke. That that's what's going to happen. David Burns: Oh great, and then how much do you believe that one? Neil Sattin: That's less. So, I would say, that's in the 60%-65%. David Burns: 65. So just to review your negative thoughts in reverse order, "I'm going to be unhealthy, weak and broke. My father was right about me. I'm not capable of getting organized and achieving my goals. There's not enough time and no way I can do all of this, all the things I have to do and all the things I want to do. I'm failing. I should be able to do this and figure this out and I'm not really sure I can be that organized, organized enough to do all the things on my plate." And then, perhaps the "No one will do this for me." You had mentioned zero on lonely, unloved, unwanted, rejected, alone and abandoned. But when you say "No one will do this for me," does that cause some feelings of being alone at all or not? You gave a zero... Neil Sattin: Yeah, I guess so. I guess it's true. Yeah, there's that sense of like, "I'm in this by myself." Yeah. David Burns: Yep. Neil Sattin: Yeah. David Burns: And then, when you have that thought, then how alone would you be feeling? Neil Sattin: Yeah, like an 80. David Burns: An 80. Neil Sattin: Yeah. David Burns: Okay, good. And so, you're feeling overwhelmed, irritated, frustrated, discouraged, embarrassed, alone, inadequate, guilty, ashamed maybe, intensely anxious and very sad, down and unhappy. So how am I doing right now in terms of getting you an understanding how you're thinking and how you're feeling? And to what extent are you feeling the sense of compassion or acceptance, if you were to grade me on empathy, so far, would you give me A, a B, a C, a D? Neil Sattin: I'd give you an A for empathy, yeah. I feel like going through this, it helps me see myself for one thing and what's happening in those moments and the attention that you're giving to the language that I'm using, and encouraging me to get specific and telling me about your experience with your son and your dad, and really kind of pausing with me in that. Yeah, I feel seen. David Burns: Okay, we've kind of... Just from a brief teaching point of view. We've done the T, because we've done testing. We know exactly how you're feeling and we'll do that again at the end of the session, and we've done some empathy. Now, we want to take a look at A: Assessment of resistance, and let me ask you this question. You've talked about some things that are very powerful, and very personal and very important. And there's something here that you would want help with. And is this a good time for us to get to work or do you need more time to talk and have me listen and provide support? Because that's important and I don't want to jump in prematurely. Neil Sattin: I think that both my excitement for being able to do this with you and my frustration at how persistent this has been, leads me to want do the work. David Burns: Okay. Now, let me ask you this question, suppose at the end of our session today, you say, "Well, that was better than French fries," or something like that, and a miracle happens. What miracle would you be hoping for? What change... If this was a really wonderful experience, what would change by the end of our session? Neil Sattin: Okay, if a miracle were to happen, then I would feel totally capable. I'd have a sense of how to prioritize and where to start. And I would feel like a certain measure of trust in the path and the unfolding that I could see it... I could see how it's all going to work, how it's all going to be okay, yeah. David Burns: Okay, that's a good goal. Now, let me ask you to imagine that we have a magic button. I can send you a nice red magic button if you want for your show notes. Someone in my Tuesday class, her husband is a graphic guy and he made a magic button, a red magic button for me. It's very neat looking. But if we have this magic button, let's say, if you pressed it, all your negative thoughts and feelings would instantly disappear in a flash. And you become euphoric and you'd feel joy and confidence and trust and you'd feel totally capable. Would you press the magic button? Neil Sattin: Yeah, I definitely would. David Burns: Oh, okay. That's what most people say. And I don't have a magic button but I've got some really wonderful techniques. But I'm not sure it would be a good idea to use those techniques and cause all these negative thoughts and feelings to disappear, that there might be some unanticipated losses there. And so, if you can take a piece of paper and put positives on it and we're going to make a list of positives and we're going to ask two questions about each negative feeling, or negative thoughts as well as you like, and we're going to ask two questions about it. David Burns: What are some benefits or advantages of this type of negative feeling, like feeling sad, feeling anxious, feeling guilty, whatever? And the second question is, What is this kind of feeling show about me and my core values as a human being, that's a beautiful and awesome and positive? So this is the opposite of the way most mental health professionals and people look at it. We say, "Oh, Neil has this defect this problem that that has to be fixed. This is all the stuff that's wrong with you." And I'm going to go in the opposite direction here and see what this shows about you, that's really quite the opposite of defective. Let's just start out with sad, down and unhappy. You're feeling 85% sad, down, and unhappy. So, what does that show about you that's beautiful, positive and awesome? Show about you and your core values? You're sad because... Neil Sattin: Yeah. David Burns: You have a lot of exciting projects that you're not getting to, among other things. Neil Sattin: Right, I mean... Sorry, I'm just making a note here. That... For me, that shows that I... Well, on one level that I'm ambitious. David Burns: Okay, so let's just stop for a second. Neil Sattin: Okay. David Burns: Put down ambitious. Neil Sattin: Okay. David Burns: The sadness shows that... Is that real? Is that true? Are you ambitious? Neil Sattin: Yeah. I am ambitious. Yeah. David Burns: Is that a good thing? Neil Sattin: I think so, yeah. David Burns: Is that important? Neil Sattin: It's super important. David Burns: Is that powerful? Neil Sattin: It's part of what drives me. David Burns: Yeah it's part of what... And you've achieved a lot. Could we add that too? Neil Sattin: Add what? David Burns: Your ambition has caused you to achieve. Neil Sattin: For sure. Yeah. David Burns: Is that important? Neil Sattin: Very important. David Burns: Okay, let's add, have achieved a lot. And just to bracket it, for our listeners because this is so new to people even mental health professionals, some have not been able to learn how to do this, they're so used to thinking about these things as bad. But notice if you press the magic button, you'll become euphoric, euphoric about the fact that there's all these projects you're not getting to. You see what I mean? Sadness... Neil Sattin: Right, 'cause I feel excited. I would just feel like, "Okay I'm going to... I will, I am going to do these things." David Burns: Right, and that's a benefit. But at the same time if you weren't feeling sad, it would be like you didn't value these things. Neil Sattin: Right. NOTE - This transcript, like this episode, is very LONG. The rest of the transcript is available for download by clicking the button below (or visiting the webpage that this episode is on, and clicking the button to download the transcript).

What can shift anxiety, depression, overwhelm, or simply feeling “down” - into feeling good, or even great? What are the hidden obstacles that get in the way? When it comes to improving your inner world, there are some things that consistently work. And there are other things that might help, but that aren’t nearly as effective. With more than 40 years of experience, Dr. David Burns, author of Feeling Good, returns to the show to reveal how his new “TEAM” approach helps you feel good - no matter what’s happening in your world. With examples from how he’s treated severe depression, anxiety, and PTSD - you’ll get a sense of how to eradicate your negative thoughts - and any resistance that's getting in the way. David Burns’s new book, Feeling Great, will be released this coming September. If you want to listen to our first episode together, where David Burns and I spoke about how to apply his work in relationships (based on his book Feeling Good Together), here is a link to Episode 98: How to Stop Being a Victim - Feeling Good Together - with David Burns If you want to listen to our second episode together, where David Burns and I spoke about how to recognize and deal with cognitive distortions, here is a link to Episode 133: Change Your Thoughts, Change Your Life - Cognitive Distortions with David Burns And, as always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you.  Join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it!  Sponsors: Find a quality therapist, online, to support you and work on the places where you’re stuck. For 10% off your first month, visit Betterhelp.com/ALIVE to fill out the quick questionnaire and get paired with a therapist who’s right for you. Resources:  Check out Dr. David Burns's website Read David’s classic books, Feeling Good or Ten Days To Self-Esteem Pre-Order David’s newest book: Feeling Great - The Revolutionary New Treatment for Depression and Anxiety FREE Relationship Communication Secrets Guide www.neilsattin.com/feelinggood3 Visit to download the transcript, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the transcript to this episode with David Burns Visit neilsattin.com/support or text "SUPPORT" to 33444 to support the podcast. Every little bit helps! Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out Transcript: David Burns: I had created - and we need to upgrade it a lot, an electronic version of my brief mood survey that patients can take at the start and end of every therapy session, plus rate the therapist: on empathy helpfulness, were there feelings that you were hiding, did you have trouble being honest? filling out the survey? And so we have before beginning and end of session, rating on relationship satisfaction, depression, anxiety, anger, happiness, suicidal urges - and although the tool needs to be improved a lot, they sent me the data from 9000 therapy sessions. David Burns: And so I've always loved statistical modeling and the kind of modeling, I do - Analysis of moment structures or structural equation modeling - requires big "Ns". And I've never had a database this big... It's kind of overwhelming like being a kid in a candy store. So I was able to... First off, just to replicate a lot of findings from 10-20 years ago, when I was working with smaller databases like maybe 500 patients from my clinic in Philadelphia, 100 and 70 patients from the Stanford in-patient unit which are relatively small. But I was able to replicate almost everything and the data is just the cleanest data set that I've ever seen and it's just full of correlational findings and potential causal findings as well. So I feel like we're seeing for the first time kind of like the anatomy of psychotherapy that's never been seen before. The veins, the arteries, the muscles, the tendons and how it works. So I can begin answering really, really basic questions, like, if you wanna have high patient satisfaction, what are the variables that cause that in the session, what do you need to attend to, or what goes into therapeutic empathy? I published an article that everyone has ignored actually in the top psychology journal about probably 20 years ago called intimacy and depression. Is there a causal connection? Because the interpersonal therapists, make a big deal about the idea that depression is caused by problems in intimate relationships. Maybe this should be our podcast. Maybe we could start broadcasting. And I never really bought it but it had never been tested. And it's hard to test because you have to do something called non-recursive modeling which is the most difficult topic in statistics where things are circularly correlated. Neil Sattin: Right, I think I heard in a recent podcast episode of yours. Testing - do thoughts cause feelings, or do the feelings cause thoughts? David Burns: Chicken or the egg... exactly, that was just a little study I did with my Standford Data it had about an n of 100 but the findings were clear cut, so I did something like that with a much larger database, maybe a few hundred where we had depression, and relationship satisfaction scores at the start of therapy. I didn't measure as intensely every session at the start and end. It was just once a session. But we had it at the intake and 12 weeks later. And intimacy and depression were correlated minus.4 at both time points, which was similar to what you see in the literature, using different scales everyone seems to come up with about that number. So high depression, low relationship satisfaction and high relationship satisfaction, low depression at both time points - and then changes in depression were associated with changes in relationship satisfaction. And so, people interpret this, like the cognitive therapists say. Oh, that's because when you're depressed, it causes an impairment in love relationships because a variety of reasons - you feel worthless, you feel un-lovable, and you're very sensitive to criticism, and you feel like I have a self that's no good. And then the interpersonal therapist says, "No, you know we need love, to feel happy" - But none of those people has ever bothered to check it out. People in our field in general, pretty much everything that's said is false, 'cause people just talk, they say things that they wanna believe and came up with it themselves, so they think it must be true. And so in my study, we found that there are NO causal links in either direction, that have any particular meaning. There are tiny little causal links that are marginally statistically significant, but the magnitude of the causal link is so tiny that you couldn't possibly improve depression by improving relationship satisfaction - even a great deal, and that itself, it's almost impossible. And in addition, you couldn't possibly improve a troubled marriage by improving the depression or even curing both partners of depression. I knew it already, because when my book 10 days to self-esteem came out. I did a bunch of studies all around - pilot studies. It's a self-help thing for depression, and I had about 40 pilot studies. This should be, in your podcast, I think. Neil Sattin: I'm recording right now. David Burns: Oh, you are recording - Okay that's great. And what we saw was that in all of these groups, people started with my book 10 days to self-esteem and they were in these groups - there were no therapists president. It was just a self-help thing I was trying to create. And all the groups, people had dramatic improvements in their depression but... but in none of the groups did relationship satisfaction improve. At the beginning they were depressed with miserable marriages, and then at the end of the group, they were euphoric with miserable marriages. It just proves that there's no connection between these domains. Well, I had a chance to try to confirm that now with 9000 therapy sessions where we've got relationship satisfaction or dissatisfaction is one variable, and depression or happiness. I measured happiness for the first time - as separate from depression. Happiness at the start and end of the session, depression at the start and end of the session. And the findings were exactly the same, and it was really thrilling. The correlation was similar, like -.3, which is a small correlation - 'cause the 3 times 3, is a 9, so there's only 9% overlap in depression and relationships, and relationship satisfaction or happiness and relationship satisfaction. I have to do that one. I could test that today. Does relationship satisfaction cause happiness or does happiness cause relationship satisfaction or both or either. After our call it'll take me a minute to answer that question. Neil Sattin: We can do a little footnote on this conversation with whatever you discover. David Burns: Right, but at any rate, it came out exactly the same - there are no meaningful causal relationships between them, and that's not a bad thing. Neil Sattin: Yeah, so what it leaves me wondering is, where are the major leverage points for what does cause either of those things? David Burns: Well, as I've said for years, all the causes of all psychological and interpersonal problems are totally unknown. And anyone who claims to know is just a con artist or a fool. It's just like before we knew the cause of polio there were thousands of theories and treatments for the last two or three thousand years - and everyone was sure that they knew - and it came out to be a virus and we got the Salk vaccine. We had the true answer. We can say with certainty that depression is triggered by negative thoughts, and that if you have a negative thought and believe it like "I'm no good" or "I'm a loser", then you're gonna be very unhappy. But what we don't know is why are some of us so prone to negative thinking and pessimism, and self-doubt, self-criticism. While others are maybe more outgoing and happy. And then there's a bell-shaped curve. Some of us, most of us are somewhere in between these extremes. That question we don't know the answer to, all we can say with certain... Is that all current theories are false, like the psychiatrists claim it's the chemical imbalance in the brain, and that's been... We proved that was false in 1975 at our laboratory, in Philadelphia in our depression research unit. We flooded the brains of depressed veterans with like 30, 50, 100 times boost in brain seratonin. And that's what the so-called chemical imbalance people fraudulently call seratonin the happy chemical. There's nothing in the literature that ever said it should have anything to do with mood. Somebody just made up the theory and then there was no change in the mood of the veterans, none whatsoever. And we published that in the top psychiatry journal and it was ignored for 25 years. Because the drug company people didn't wanna hear it. And recently, people are starting to quote it a lot. All these theories of causality. Nobody knows. You know, as Freud says, "Oh it's anger turned inwards, or something in childhood" and certain psycho-analytic type therapists, they believe these theories that have no research to confirm them. But the great news is we CAN help people tremendously with depression. My new book, I'll give a pump for it, "Feeling Great" - it should be able to be ordered on Amazon soon - it's coming out in September. We've got fantastic high speed techniques to cause depression to go away really fast. And that's all I care about. And then, why do people have relationship problems? My research indicates that blame is the major factor. The problem is not that your partner is to blame, the problem is that you're blaming them and not looking at your own role in the problem. And we've got ways if people want help with troubled relationships, which is generally not the case, we have tremendous techniques to help them. But anyway, that's just kind of quick - where I'm at. The TEAM-CBT that I have created, and it's now really out-performing cognitive therapy, at least in, in my hands, and those of a number of my colleagues. It emerged because of the research I was doing, a number of years ago when I was in practice. Why do some people get better fast, and others resist, or fail to improve? And I found out why that was- it has do with motivation and resistance. Something I scorned early in my career, thinking it was not important, that turned out to be incredibly important. And once we saw that we developed new high speed ways to boost motivation, and that has, and reduce resistance. The first time we meet with someone - and then that leads to amazingly rapid recovery. Neil Sattin: There are all sorts of thoughts that I'm having at this moment, that are interweaving with things that you've mentioned already in this conversation. So, I guess first... Well, I'm thinking about Emily Nagoski and her model for Human Sexuality, and what allows people to feel connected to who they are as a sexual being, and to their partner - and she talks about the dual control mechanism, which is basically what turns you on, and what turns you off, and being aware of those things. And so I'm hearing the parallel already in what you're offering in terms of what motivates you to change, and what resistances you have to change - your accelerator and your brakes. And I'm curious to know, for you, does willpower enter into the conversation at all? I've been trying to get what's his name, Roy, Baumeister on the show to talk about willpower. We've been in conversation for quite a while, but I'm wondering where you feel like willpower ends up as part of the equation? David Burns: I don't use the term willpower, but I created a term called willingness in the late 1980s when I was trying to find out why some people don't recover quickly when treated for depression. And over the years, I've come to see more of what this willingness is and what it isn't. I developed a scale. And essentially, how willing are you to do stuff to help yourself like, psychotherapy homework for example. And that was the only variable in the world literature that's ever been shown to have a causal effect on depression or changes in depression, and the causal effect is massive. And then you can think about that as resistance, or motivation, which would be the opposite. And that variable - I tested all kinds of things that people were saying cause people to get better, like therapist empathy. Everyone was thinking, that was it. Therapist Empathy is important but it doesn't have much of a causal effect on anything, surprisingly. But that variable was huge, and people doing homework had a huge causal effect on who got better. Neil Sattin: So the variable was their willingness or the variable was their taking action? Because someone could begrudgingly take action. David Burns: Yeah, yeah both. If you take action that's meaningful, to help him reduce your negative thoughts - the actual homework had effects and the motivation that the homework reflected also had a massive causal effect on changes. Recently I saw an article, somebody took this term willingness - I don't think they attributed it to me, they should have - but they developed a willingness scale for anxiety disorders and reported that's the first variable in the world literature that's been shown have causal effects on recovery from obsessive compulsive disorder - OCD. That are you willing to use exposure to confront your fears... Neil Sattin: So, willingness. So, that does intersect with the question of resistance and... So in your TEAM model, which is what you've added on and just to mention, for you listening, this conversation is, in some respects, giving you a brief synopsis of things that we went into a lot of depth into in our first two conversations together. So in our first conversation which was episode 98, we talked about your book "Feeling Good Together," and it was this question of how to help relationships using your model. We talked about that point that you just made a few moments ago that a lot of people actually don't want to change their relationship even though they might say they want to change their relationship. So we go into that question in a lot more depth in episode 98. And then in our last conversation, which was episode 133, we talked a lot about the ways that we work on our own feeling state. So the first conversation we had was more focused on relationships, then we went through all the cognitive distortions, and we talked briefly about your TEAM model, but let's just say what the TEAM stands for in this moment. Because that may be a good point for us to dive off into the other intersection that you brought up - the polio virus. And it's impossible to have a conversation right now. I think without talking about the ways that SARS-CoV-2 or covid 19 or the novel Coronavirus whatever we're gonna call it - that is impacting us. And I'm seeing it have a huge impact on so many people, including myself, people who have been resolutely positive and optimistic, and it's the way, the scale by which this seems to be affecting everyone in every walk of life - I feel like it would be great for us to bring our conversation back to that, and maybe we'll weave in, maybe we'll weave in all these things, like our resistance, and our blame, and we'll put it all a nice bow around it before we're done... David Burns: That sounds great! We're starting on my feeling good podcast series, Corona-casting and we've got two recorded and we're gonna be doing maybe one or at least one or two more. But essentially, when you're looking at the effects of the corona virus or both at intimacy relationship issuesm because we're compressed closer together, and there's more blow-ups and anger and tension being expressed. And so we've had a couple of those in my Tuesday training group at Stanford, where we sometimes do live work. It's free training for therapists in the Bay Area or from anywhere. If they come consistently, they can get unlimited training and unlimited personal therapy for free, which is a pretty good deal. And they have to come consistently, and do homework and use the brief mood survey to see how they're doing with their patients. But in the last two weeks, we've had two people very upset. Both therapists - the therapists are human - no different from anyone else - due to intense family conflicts that have erupted because of of the coronavirus. And then I've also been working on the internal mood issues - the panic, the depression, and how we use TEAM to help with those things too - again with one live, or a real example. But what team is: T is testing, E is empathy is, A is - we used to call it paradoxical agenda setting, but that was too confusing to people. So now we call it assessment of resistance, and then M is methods. Now testing means that we test every patient at the start and end of every therapy session. They do it in the waiting room. And can do it now on their cell phone so it doesn't waste any therapy time, but we find out exactly how depressed they are at the start of the session. How angry they are, how anxious they are, how happy they are, and what their relationship satisfaction is with the spouse or mother, whoever they want to be rating. And the reason we get those ratings at the start of the session is because therapists' ability to know how patients feel is close to zero. Research has proven this. And therapists don't know this. Therapists think they know how patients are feeling, but if you stop and test it, you find out the therapist's perceptions are way off base in most cases. In fact, it happened to me recently. I thought I was doing brilliantly. I'm not in practice, but I still treat a lot of people for free because I'm addicted to it. And on one of my Sunday hikes... I was working with a woman with certain issues, and I could just see that I was hitting it out of the park, and it was just an awesome hike... There were many hikers there, and afterwards, I was just congratulating myself for how outstanding I'd been in helping her, and then I discovered that she was enraged with me. I mean she was livid. I had totally totally missed the boat. And the listeners are maybe saying "Burnsie, he's probably insensitive. That wouldn't happen to me," but it happens to all therapists all the time, and most therapists don't know it. But if you get the assessments, the measurements, because then they rate you at the end on empathy, on helpfulness, on unexpressed anger, which was the case with my so-called patient, and a lot of other dimensions. And if you use the brief mood survey, it's like having an X-ray machine. You see the truth for the first time. It is the platform for all effective therapy to my way of thinking. E is empathy, you know all about empathy. And so at the start of the session, we empathize with the patient without trying to help. That was my mistake with this patient - I just thought I knew what her problem was and jumped in to cure her. I didn't bother to empathize or reduce her resistance - I violated my own rules. But fortunately, we had talked it over, and now we're closer than ever. The failure turned into something just the opposite. Neil Sattin: Right, and how often do we assume we know what's going on with another person? And just jump in, yeah, with offering something and it can be with the best intention. David Burns: That's one of the things here with the coronavirus - people are often trying to help somebody or tell them what to do. Most people just want someone to listen, they don't want someone to try to fix them, if they're panicky, or upset, or angry about the coronavirus - good listening skills is is all that 95% of people are really, really looking for. But then after we've empathized, and that takes about 30 minutes generally, in my experience. I treat most people just with one session, I don't have multiple sessions - I just treat people once and try to "cure" them or whatever that means in one two-hour session. One and done, is my approach. But if they need more, they can get more. But I rarely see people for more than one session. So you can empathize if you use what we call The Five Secrets of effective communication, which is I'm sure similar to approaches that you use. You can generally get an A or an A plus - you can form the deepest possible relationship with any person, you've never met in about 20 to 25 minutes. And then we do assessment of resistance. We say, "What do you want help with? Do you want help with anything?" And once they say what they want help with - could be a relationship problem, it could be depression, it could be anxiety - we do what we call, fractal psychotherapy. I don't know if we brought up that - fractal psychotherapy - a fractal is a little tiny formula that multiplies itself, and you can simulate almost anything in this way. This is like, how nature works. Neil Sattin: The macro level is mirrored in the tiniest piece. David Burns: Yeah, yeah, that's it. I can take a little tiny equation that a third grader could understand, and have it multiply on your computer, and it will go infinitely to the size of the universe. You can't see it all, you can only see a portion but you got it. It could create a gorgeous multi-color parrot, but the most beautiful little parrot, but if you zero in on the tiniest little piece of that, it will always be the same thing, that's just repeating itself over again. And that's how human suffering is. At any one moment in a relationship conflict, all the causes of the relationship conflict will be embedded. By one moment, I mean, what did the other person say to you, What did you say next? And if you look at that interaction, you'll see all the causes of that conflict between those two people. You don't need their history. You don't need their childhood - just one sentence from the other person, or two sentences - whatever - and exactly what you said next. That's a fractal for a relationship problem. And you have a fractal for depression. Tell me one moment you were depressed. What time of day was it, where were you, what were you feeling? Circle all of your emotions, how depressed were you? 90% okay, how anxious were you 80%? Okay, how guilty or ashamed were you? You get all of these emotions and 9 different dimensions, and you say, "What were you telling yourself, what were your negative thoughts?" And in that one moment when the person was depressed or anxious, you can find all the causes, and all the cures for all the upset they've ever had in their life. So we want the person to say, what's one moment - if you want help, give me one moment that you want help. Where were you? What time of day was it? What were you doing, who were you interacting with? Yeah, and then I generally say to the person, Okay, you were all upset yesterday at 9:30 or whatever and you were feeling 100% depressed and angry and upset and all these emotions, but what kind of help would you be looking for? And generally it comes down to... Well, I want my negative thoughts and feelings to go away. With someone recently... We had a woman 95% depressed and 95% anxious and 65% feeling inadequate, and I think frustrated at 100, and jittery 100 because of the coronavirus. She just woke up and she's trapped at home, and she's thinking that she should be more active, but she feels like procrastinating and then she's beating up on herself for not being productive. And... Neil Sattin: it sounds really familiar, actually. David Burns: Then we say, well if there's a magic button - if you press that magic button all your negative thoughts and feelings will instantly disappear, or the person you're upset with will instantly become your best friend in the whole world. With no effort, you gonna press that button? And everyone is "oh yeah, I'll press that button." And then we do what's called positive reframing - we bring their subconscious resistance to conscious awareness. This is the whole key to TEAM therapy to eliminate resistance before you try to help the person change, and that is what has opened the door to these phenomenal high-speed changes that I'm seeing. Now almost all the time when I work with people, they generally go from extreme or severe depression, not only to no depression - they go into a state of euphoria, mostly in a single two-hour session. People hearing this will get enraged, and they'll think I'm a con artist, and think it's impossible. If I'd heard this was possible 10 years ago I would have said it's a con also - don't believe that person. But I see it and I measure it, I have the data... Neil Sattin: And you're doing follow-up with those people as well? David Burns: I do from time to time... I'm building an app now, a feeling great app, that will allow us to do follow-up forever, on everybody. Doing follow-up on humans is pretty time consuming. In my clinical practice, I did relapse prevention training. I always do that before I'm done with somebody. Because we can guarantee that people will relapse. 100% of humans relapse pretty much every day. I define a relapse of one minute or more of feeling like crap. We're always relapsing all the time, but what I found is that if you do relapse prevention training, which takes about 20 or 25 minutes - relapse has not been a problem. And what I do is I just tell the person you are gonna relapse and here's what you're gonna be thinking when you relapsed, and here's how to talk back to those thoughts. And then we practice it with a role play and they record it. Then I say, if you ever do relapse, play this recording and if you're still stuck, give me a call because I offer unlimited lifetime guarantee of my work, and I'll give you tune-ups for free, if you're not satisfied. Neil Sattin: It's a pretty good deal. David Burns: Yeah, in my whole career, I've had over 40000 hours of therapy sessions - I've only had eight or nine patients who ever took me up on that. And in all of them, it was one session or two sessions and then they're on their way again. I only had one patient whoever relapsed and required intensive therapy again, to get out of her web. So I don't think the relapse thing - the people that I've been working with - I worked with a woman four or five years ago, who thought she was a bad mother, because her daughter had been shot in the face, and she thought it was her fault. Her daughter was 12 and wanted to go out and play after dinner, and she says it's a little late but I guess... Go ahead. She'd let her daughter go out every night for years, and then some neighborhood boys snuck up on her daughter and they had a high power pellet rifle - and aimed it at her face and pulled the trigger. And it hit her daughter's tooth, which exploded in her mouth, and she ran inside, sobbing, blood coming out everywhere. And she required multiple, multiple surgeries. And in addition, by the time I saw the woman she had been beating up on herself for nine years. "I've ruined my daughter's life." Her daughter was still struggling with PTSD and had failed therapy. So we did the TEAM therapy with her. I did it in a live workshop, and it took about an hour and a half, and her feelings went from extremely severe that she'd had every day for nine years. Just, "I shouldn't have let her go out and play. I'm a bad mother I've ruined her life, I can never allow myself to be happy when she's struggling. The people in the audience who are watching, they probably are judging me and thinking I'm a bad mother." And at the end, she was more than recovered - all her negative feelings went to zero, but she estimated one of them as minus a thousand and another one as minus a million an a score of zero to 100. She was in a state of euphoria. So I contacted her. I follow up with people from time to time just out of curiosity, and she sent me an email that she's still in this amazing joy, and her negative thoughts have never returned it. And the thing is that after that session, when she recovered, I have a recording of it - which I gave her and she listened to it with her daughter, who had no idea that her mother was struggling like this. And then her daughter recovered. And so it's infectious, when you're recover. But at any rate, relapse prevention training is easy to learn - it isn't easy to learn how to cause severe chronic feelings to disappear in a single session or a short period of time. It requires a lot of skill and training. But at any rate at the assessment of resistance, we bring the factors - see Anthony de Mello, maybe I said this in our last interview, he's a Jesuit mystic from the early 1900s I think, or maybe the mid-1900s but he said "We yearn for change, but cling to the familiar." And that's resistance... We say, "Oh I would really wanna lose some weight." But then when you... someone offers you a nice... like my wife made - we're cooped up here at home - but she made some beautiful peanut butter cookies. And they're so good with a fresh, crisp apple. So you say, "Well I'll lose weight next time." We have ambivalence about change. And so, we bring all the reasons to resist change to conscious awareness and patients haven't thought of it before. And what we've seen is, for the most part, at least with depression and anxiety, the reasons people resist have do with really beautiful things about them, and once they see that, they don't wanna press that magic button anymore, because then all these beautiful things will go down the drain. Like the woman who says I'm a bad mother. I hope we didn't talk about her last time. Neil Sattin: No, we haven't spoken about her yet. David Burns: I think - she's saying "I'm a bad mother" - I told her, Well, gosh, if you press that magic button all your negative thoughts and feelings will go away. But before we do that, let's say, What do they say about you that's positive and awesome? When she's telling herself I'm a bad mother what does that show about her that's positive and awesome? And what are some benefits to her? What does that actually show about her, that's beautiful and positive? Neil Sattin: Well, it would show that she really cares about being a good mother. David Burns: Yes, and that's what she came up with. And I said, "Is that important? Neil Sattin: Absolutely I would imagine so! David Burns: Is it powerful? So if you press that magic button all your sadness and concern about your daughter will disappear and you'll be euphoric, as happy as a lamb - is that what you want? "Oh no, no, I see what you mean." You see, and she's intensely anxious. What does her anxiety show about her that's positive and awesome? Neil Sattin: Well, it would again be... I'm just imagining that she's still really concerned for her daughter and wanting to ensure that she's doing whatever she can to keep her safe. David Burns: Absolutely, is that important? Neil Sattin: Definitely. David Burns: is it real? Neil Sattin: for sure. David Burns: Is it powerful? Neil Sattin: Absolutely. David Burns: Yeah. And so we went through all of her negative thoughts and feelings. And now you're concerned that the people in the audience here are judging - gonna judge you. What's awesome about that, what does that show about you that's beautiful? You're a bit afraid they're gonna think you're a bad mother. Neil Sattin: Right... so she wants to be a positive role model in the world, for motherhood. She also probably wants people to know that she takes responsibility for being a good mom - that there's something about if she were totally okay with it, then somehow she's absolving herself of all responsibility. David Burns: So does it show that she wants good close respectful relationships with the people in the audience? Neil Sattin: Definitely. David Burns: Is that a good thing? Neil Sattin: absolutely. David Burns: Is that powerful? Neil Sattin: I would say, so, yeah. David Burns: And so everything you see, we've been trained to tell patients - you have a mental disorder - you can look it up in DSM, you could qualify for probably three different mental disorders. And that makes us ashamed of our suffering. Thinking. Oh, there's something wrong with me. And what we're saying is there's actually something right with you - a lot that's right with you - your suffering comes from the part of you that's most beautiful and awesome, at least with regard to depression and anxiety, not not so much relationship conflicts, although to a certain extent. But in depression and anxiety it's something beautiful. And that's called "assessment of resistance." And then with her we came up with, I think, 22 beautiful things about her and benefits of her negative thoughts and feelings, and I said, well... Why would you wanna press that magic button 'cause then all of this will go down the drain? Why would you wanna do that? And she said "I see what you mean, but still I I'm suffering so much, isn't there something I could do?" And then we used the Magic dial and say, "Well maybe instead of pressing the magic button we could dial them down. Your depression is 90... How much would you like to be at the end of the demonstration, today?" Is there a lower level, that you could keep all these beautiful things about you and your shame, and your guilt? What would you like them to be? How anxious would you like them to be and she said "oh well 20% is enough on depression and maybe five would be enough anxiety, and shame - I'll turn that one all the way down to zero." Her anger... She was very angry at the parents who let their boys out with a loaded rifle. And she wanted that one to go from 100 to maybe 20 or something. And then we say, "Okay well, we got powerful techniques and will lower them to those levels." She had a gold she wrote down for each of her nine different negative emotions. They I say "we won't lower them any further, but we'll have to be careful 'cause the techniques I'm gonna use here are so powerful - we may overshoot." Your depression may go down to five or zero even - but don't worry if you get too depression-free or too anger-free I'll help you dial it up at the end of the session. And she liked that, and now the resistance, is gone. And then we just went on and identified the distortions and her thoughts, and showed her techniques and roleplay techniques to talk back to them, and she just blew her negative thoughts out of the water. And then at the end I said now do you think these people in the audience are thinking you're a bad mother and they're judging you? Could we do an experiment to find out if that's true? And she got very anxious and he said, "You mean maybe I could ask them?" and I said, yeah, would you wanna do that? She says No no A... And I said "your fear shows us that it's the thing to do" 'cause that's exposure, right? Confronting your fear. So she said, "Well maybe could some of you come up to the front," because a friend of mine was doing is on his tiny little cam recorder, and so talk into the microphone - and then you can ask them if they're judging you and how they feel about you. And then about 10 people came up and each one of them she said "How do you feel about me?" And they started - every one of them started crying and saying, "You're my hero. Getting up in front of the group and doing this demonstration shows what a beautiful mother and beautiful human being you are, and I'm so deep in admiration." And then she started sobbing - she couldn't believe it. To see how off-base or negative, her thoughts had been... And that was kind of the end of the session - we did the end of session measurements and everything had gone to zero and below zero. So, that's TEAM - testing, empathy, assessment of resistance, and the M is methods. That's identifying the distortions in the thoughts and turning them around. Now it plays out radically different for relationship problems when we follow the same structure. Neil Sattin: right, and I like when I've heard you talk about all the different methods that get combined, and how you work with people, that you're quick to point out that they come from all of these different places that you're sourcing all kinds of different therapy, therapeutic models and how you approach problems. David Burns: yeah, yeah, TEAM is not a school of therapy, I'm against all schools of therapy. And think they could all be got rid of, just as when the Catholic church, when science and astronomy broke away from the Catholic church, it became a science - data driven science. So now you see how fantastic physics and astrophysics and all of that, has become... And I think that therapy you can draw from all the schools of therapy and the M equals methods. I use over 100 methods really that are on my list for therapists, and they come from all schools of therapy. But then we should be focusing on basic research, to see how all of psychotherapy works. And then having a structure for therapy. TEAM is a structure for all of psychotherapy. That's how therapy works - rather than schools of therapy, which are generally guru-driven rather than a science-driven, and are pushing some theory of some person who has a lot of followers. Neil Sattin: And is the idea that you're paying attention to what is actually working for the individual? 'cause I can see that some things might statistically look like they work more than other things, but if it's not working for the person in front of you, then it doesn't matter how statistically proven, it is to be effective. David Burns: Yeah, like her thought - the first thought she wanted to work on from her daily mood log was "I never should have let my daughter go out and play." And in my mind or on paper, I generate what's called a recovery circle. I imagine that thought's in a circle that she's trapped in - and then there's arrows coming out of the circle. And each arrow is a different way of escape and at the end of each arrow would be one of these hundred methods that I use. Like a method could be identifying the distortions, or externalization of voices, or examine the evidence, or a downward interpersonal arrow, or the hidden emotion technique, or whatever techniques. And then I go through them one at a time, in my mind, until I find the "Aha!" one that just implodes the system and the patient suddenly recovers. This recovery generally happens in a matter of... Oh, maybe a minute or something like that. When the patient suddenly sees that the negative thought is not true, at that very moment they will improve or recover. Neil Sattin: Okay, I'm wondering if you'd be willing to do something that I've only done occasionally, here on the show, but what I'd love to maybe try if you're up for it is... is to do a little work together. Because I feel like one of the reasons that I reached out to you is that when I was thinking, Okay, we're in the middle of a crisis, at least that's what the thoughts tell us - and the news tells us - and most of us are living somewhat sheltered in place. We're not leaving our homes... So the world is different in this moment. I was thinking, Okay, who... Who do I know that I would most trust to show up in a moment like this? And you were the first person that came to mind for me and so it's... David Burns: So kind of you to say - thank you - you're one of my heroes. Neil Sattin: Thank you David, I appreciate that. And so what I'm hoping is that for everyone listening, that if they... I think it's so instructive to hear you talk about the process and, as you know, witnessing the process might also be really helpful for people as they think like, Okay, how do I deal with everything that's happening in the world right now? [First we revisit the data set to see if we could find any more causal relationships or correlations] David Burns: We're looking at the relationship between relationship satisfaction, happiness or unhappiness on the one hand, and then a 10-item happiness scale. It's things like "I feel worthwhile, I feel close to people. I feel productive," and so forth. We'll get on to our exciting personal work, which is gonna be way cooler than research for your listeners. But we did get some clear cut results here, with, I think the... N on this is 9000 sessions - and so we can now say... Okay, let's just, let's look at the results, right? Okay, we've gotta just make one last adjustment. Does happiness lead to better relationships? Or does better intimacy cause feelings of happiness? That seems like a reasonable question, don't you think? So, and I'm just, I'm setting this up in the software I have no idea of what these results are gonna show, but they do, they do show a fairly clear cut result here. The correlation between positive feelings and relationship satisfaction is about.38 - it's a modest correlation - not huge - you take the square root of that which would be about 15 or - the square. The square of.38 is about.15. So there's about 15% overlap between how satisfied you feel in your relationship with your spouse, or partner, and how happy you are. Now, in one of these models I declared that there was no causal effect of positive feelings on relationship satisfaction. In other words, that when you're reporting how satisfied you are with your spouse or your partner, we're testing the theory that... How happy or unhappy you are, has nothing to do with that. Now do you think that's a true or false theory? Neil Sattin: I would say that that's - intuitively I would say false. That your level of relationship satisfaction would impact how happy you say you are. David Burns: Well, you're, you're right, you're a genius. Because it has no causal effect whatsoever. Now, how about the other hypothesis? Is your happiness, feeling of happiness, influenced by how satisfied you are in your relationship with your spouse or partner? Neil Sattin: That was the one that I was saying, I thought would there would be a correlation. David Burns: Well, we're talking about causal effects not correlation... Neil Sattin: Right, so, in other words, with the first one, does your inner state of happiness cause you to report more satisfaction in your relationships? David Burns: Right, and, and you predicted "no", and you were right... Neil Sattin: But that was the one where it was 15% like that there was 15%... David Burns: No - that's just the correlation between them, but that doesn't mean there's a causal relationship. Neil Sattin: Okay, got it, thank you for clarifying that. David Burns: Yeah, but if you're very unhappy and then you become very happy, that's not gonna affect how you report your relationship satisfaction or dissatisfaction. And that's kind of what I found in my pilot study too, that when we made people's depression, disappear, it had no effect on their level of satisfaction with happiness or unhappiness in their marriage. Now we're looking at the other direction. Does how happy or unhappy you are, in your relationship, does that affect your feeling of depression? Neil Sattin: I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Yes. David Burns: Yeah, and again, you're right, so you... I think you need to go into statistics. Good statistics should reflect common sense. It often gives surprises. There is a causal effect there, and I can tell you how big the causal effect is. My relationship satisfaction scale, is highly accurate. It goes from zero to 30. So let's say your relationship satisfaction increased by 10 points - that would be a huge improvement. And it's hard to get that in a clinical situation when someone's unhappy with their marriage. But if you can boost it by 10 points there would be four-tenths of a point increase in the positive feeling scale, which goes from zero to 40. So it's the same result that I had in Philadelphia. There is a causal effect in the direction you mentioned, but it is so tiny as to be kind of theoretically and clinically, meaningless. And it's kind of an interesting result, because it means that how happy or depressed you are, on the one hand, and then how close you feel to people in general or to your partner on the other hand - that they're not related to each other - for the most part, there's no connection. So, the tools that you would need to improve a relationship and the theory of what causes bad relationships is totally different from the tools you would need to treat depression or boost happiness and the things that cause depression or happiness. That they're independent domains - they are not linked. Neil Sattin: So, there you did see a causal effect, but it was pretty small. David Burns: Yeah, it's exactly what I reported in my original paper in the Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology in the mid-1990s or something like that - and no one's ever attempted to replicate it. Today, I have the first replication studies of that. And it is important because it means, let's say you're a therapist, and someone comes in with depression, and they're lonely or they have a poor relationship. Clairman and Cole [sic] have this thing called Interpersonal therapy where they treat depression by improving people's relationships, and then they think that that's effective. And of course, the therapy, all therapies for depression have a placebo effect and not much more. And that's true of theirs. And so while they do get people somewhat better. It's not - the depression doesn't improve because of improved relationships - improving relationships will not cause you to feel less depressed or happier. Neil Sattin: It's so interesting, it's so interesting. And I guess this must be something that I'd account for, I'd have to account for it in a different way. At this point it makes sense to me... People often talk to me about their relationships, I think, because of what I do. But prior to what I did, I found people talking to me a lot about their relationships, and it always seems, it has always seemed as though that if something isn't going well, that that weighs heavily on them and it does ripple out into the other aspects of how they perceive themselves to be doing. So what that would suggest - what you just revealed - is that we may harbor this belief that there's a connection there, when in fact those are two completely independent domains and should be treated as such. So, what someone says, "How are you doing" and you... You say like... Well, I'm okay, but my relationship is horrible or whatever. Then maybe the next response that should happen given what you just said, is like, "okay, that makes sense. Let's separate those two, because they are a completely separate or almost completely separate." David Burns: Right, right, and because you don't have a big ego, like probably your self is dead, so you're open and can receive. But the problem with most mental health professionals is that they think they know things, and so it's hard to accept new findings. I find these new findings that are so different from what I believe to be, in a way, kind of exciting, because what it means is that we have new understanding of how the world works, and then we can use that to refine our effectiveness as therapists. But sometimes it's really hard to accept what research teaches us because it shuts down what we thought intuitively to be the case. But I found this also true, that when - I have treated thousands and thousands and thousands of hours of people with depression and now I have tools to cause depression to disappear most of the time, just really fast in a single two-hour session. And I never work on boosting relationships - I can cause depression to go away without any attention to how happy or unhappy a person is in their intimate relationships. And if they also want help with relationships, then I would use a completely different set of therapeutic tools from the ones I used to treat depression. So it's just kind of interesting and you always have to take it with a grain of salt, because you can fool yourself with research too. But I've seen this now with two huge databases exactly the same results. Neil Sattin: I'd be interested to see how this... Not that we're gonna do this right now, but how this would overlap with say all the research and modeling that John Gottman has done, and see where those datasets correlate with... Where they line up with each other, and where there might be disparities between the two. David Burns: Yeah, absolutely, and if you review the literature too, if you want publish a paper, you have to say so-and-so found this and so and so found that... And so forth. But the kind of analysis that I'm doing here is-it's difficult to do, it's the most difficult topic in all of statistics when you have A and B - the kind of the chicken and egg thing. Most people don't know how to do this. This kind of modeling. But it would be fun. Maybe he has never measured happiness at the same time that he's measured relationship satisfaction - maybe he's never measured depression at the same time he's measuring relationship satisfaction. That's what you need to measure these things. at time A and then measure them again at time B later on - and then you can model the causal connections if any between the variables. But yes, it would be fun to find that out, but let's do something cool and truly awesome now and get rid of statistics...

Rhonda and David address five fascinating questions in today’s podcast, including these: “I’m incredibly shy. How do you talk to girls?” How did you get over your fear of vomiting? Do you still use behavioral techniques like Exposure? Should I try to include the E and A of TEAM when trying to crush my negative thoughts on my daily mood log? And how would I do this? Please give us a podcast on how to express anger. Nandini writes: I have zero experience dating and talking to girls. I don't know how to even make girl as friend. Whenever I talk to a girl, the next day I think “How should I talk to her?” Should I go to her because now she wants me to talk to her? Which makes me very nervous. And also. if am talking to a girl I think about when I will have to go to her next time. When I’m doing my work, I think should I go to her, because she works in our office. Means I don't know how to do that! Can you help? Rhonda and David respond with some simple advice, but encourage all listeners to use the search function on his website to get lots of great links to helpful material on just about any mental health topic, including flirting, dating, shyness, or just about anything. In additon, my book, Intimate Connections, could be really helpful to Nandini, as well as my books, When Panic Attacks and The Feeling Good Handbook, that all have extensive sections on anxiety. You can find all of them at my books page (https://feelinggood.com/books/). In addition, we’ve recently featured several podcasts on shyness and social anxiety, including: 128: Intense Social Anxiety–I’m Losing Control! What Can I Do? 134: Smashing Shyness: Part 1 135: Smashing Shyness: Part 2 169: More on Social Anxiety–the Case for Vulnerability 142: Performance Anxiety: The Story of Rhonda, Part 1 143: Performance Anxiety: The Conclusion 088: Role-Play Techniques —Feared Fantasy Revisited How did you get over your fear of vomiting? DB, I know you probably don't remember me because it's been years since we emailed, but you helped me via your Ask The Guru section of your old website years ago and we occasionally emailed back and forth after that. Which reminds me to once again thank you for your books and how you've dedicated your life to your work. It has made a difference in my life and I would imagine literally millions of others. What a wonderful thing. I stumbled upon an article about you in the Stanford Magazine from 2013 and learned something I didn't know -- you suffered at one time from a fear of vomiting. I've dealt with that since I was a kid. It's not as severe now as it once was, but I'm wondering what CBT methods might be useful for that particular issue. (No chance I'm taking ipecac syrup!). I know you're busy so I understand if you can't answer, but wanted to reach out anyway. Thanks in advance, Steve  Do you still use behavioral techniques? Dear Dr Burns, I really appreciate your efforts in this area cognitive behavioral therapy, but your efforts and techniques are so powerful and you use them so efficiently that almost no time you have to use the behavioral part of it as patients seem to be relieved enough with cognitive work. One thing I am curious about is that if you can't get enough response with cognitive work, and if you have to use the exposure model, and the patient is afraid of exposure because he or she goes into a severe state of anxiety, depersonalization or derealization symptoms and feels like gonna go crazy and lose control, would you still push him or her to the cognitive exposure and are there any risks of it? Thank you very much. Jordan  Should I try to include the E and A of TEAM when trying to crush my negative thoughts on my daily mood log? And how would I do this? Dr. Burns, It would be impossible for me to heap sufficient praise over you and your podcasts because I've really gained an intangible amount of benefits and continue to learn something actionable from both on a weekly basis. I'm currently finishing Feeling Good Together and am finding the experience transformative. I wanted to see if I could ask you a question regarding the Daily Mood Log and crushing negative thoughts. I'm completely on board with the notion of fractal psychotherapy and the idea that all of our negative emotions will be captured in a single negative thought and by crushing it, we will feel substantial relief and even euphoria. I've been using the Daily Mood Log to inconsistent effect. I write down my negative thoughts, identify the distortions and then identify statements to attack that thought that are 100% true. Perhaps I am rushing through the exercise too quickly, as I try to make it a daily habit. But is it possible I'm missing an element? I've noticed in your live therapy that you allocate a sizable chunk of time to Empathy and Agenda Setting. Is it possible that the E and A in TEAM's absence in my Daily Mood Log is stunting my progress? Is there a way and should I be implementing both into the exercise? I would appreciate any input you have on this question and I look forward to continuing to listen to the podcast as new episodes come out, along with your new book and App! Best regards, Tommy Dr. Burns, Thank you! I’d be happy for you to use my first name. I’ll look out for it in the upcoming podcasts. Have a great rest of the week. Tommy Please give us a podcast on how to express anger! Hey Dr. Burns, I’m loving the podcast, and my favorite podcasts are the Ask David and Live Treatment ones! Also, I can’t wait for the new app and book! I did have a question, which I can go into more detail if need be. Specifically, what podcasts and book would you recommend for anger? I’m unsure how to express anger in a productive way (in my relationship), and would love more guidance and practice prior to trying to use the 5 secrets “live”. Thanks in advance! Thanks for listening today, and thanks for all the kind comments and totally awesome questions! David and Rhonda

My mother won't follow my advice! David and Rhonda are joined in today’s podcast by Alex Clarke, MD, a former student of David’s who is practicing TEAM therapy at the Feeling Good Institute in Mountain View, California, and by Zeina Halim, a TEAM therapist and student in David’s Tuesday Stanford psychotherapy training group. In our last two podcasts (Corona Cast 1 and 2) (links) we focused on the impact of the corona crisis on internal feelings like depression, anxiety, panic, hopelessness, and so forth. In this week's Corona Cast 3, we will switch our focus to the impact of the pandemic on personal relationships, using a real example. Zeina was concerned that her mother, aged 72, was not being sufficiently careful about social distancing. Zeina felt panicky because she feared her mother might get the virus and die. However, Zeina’s mother is very self-reliant and independent, and didn’t take kindly to Zeina’s frequent reminders to do this or do that so as to be safe. They ended up arguing and feeling frustrated with each other. Perhaps you’ve also run into problems with friends and loved ones because of the corona crisis. When people get confined into close quarters, under conditions of intense stress and uncertainty, clashes are almost inevitable. When you’re angry with someone , you’ll nearly always be viewing the other person in a distorted way. For example, you may be telling yourself that s/he “should” not think, feel or behave the way he or she is thinking, feeling, or behaving. Of course, this is a classic other-directed “should statement.” Or you may be telling yourself that the other person is being “stubborn” or “unreasonable” (Labeling; Mind-Reading). Or you may tell yourself that you’re right and the other person is wrong (All-or-Nothing Thinking; Blame). And in most cases, you’ll be telling yourself that the conflict is the other person’s fault and that you’re the innocent victim of his or her bad behavior (Blame.) These are just a few of the cognitive distortions (link) that fuel conflict. But it’s these distorted thoughts, and NOT what the other person is thinking, feeling, or saying, that actually causes your negative feelings. You are making yourself angry--the other person is NOT causing your anger or frustration! You are creating these feelings. And the thoughts that trigger these feeling are wrong thoughts. This can be a VERY hard pill to swallow. You, and not the person you're mad at, are triggering your feelings of frustration and anger. In addition, the thoughts that upset you are not valid. They’re distorted, and just plain WRONG. If you don’t like this message, you might want to stop reading! I get it! It is SO MUCH more rewarding to blame the other person! In today’s podcast, we discuss and illustrate a sophisticated TEAM-CBT technique called "Forced Empathy" (link). Forced Empathy forces you see things from the perspective of someone you’re at odds with. It will ONLY be effective if you want a closer relationship with the person you’re at odds with. If you want to remain in battle--as most people do--then you're welcome to do that. Go for it. If, in contrast, you do want to feel closer and more loving, Forced Empathy can lead to a helpful shift in how you think about the person you’re angry with. When you suddenly see things through the eyes of the person you're angry with, you may suddenly discover that your thoughts about the other person’s motives were not correct. Alex and David describe how the technique works in a step-by-step way, and then illustrate it with a role-play between Zeina and her mother. This is a recreation of the technique they used live in the Stanford Tuesday group a couple weeks before the recording. Forced Empathy proved to be extraordinarily helpful to Zeina, and brought tears to her eyes. Once she saw things from her mother’s perspective, the tone of their interactions suddenly softened, and the tension was replaced by feelings of love and acceptance. Zeina was surprised to discover that, among other things, her mother, while not wanting to die, had no fear of death, but didn’t appreciate being constantly told what to do, or what not to do, and that she loved and admired Zeina tremendously. Zeina also discovered that in the highly unlikely event that her mother did die, she would want to spend her last days or weeks with her Zeina, feeling close, and loving one another, instead of arguing. Is this relevant to you and your friends and loved ones? In today’s podcast, we talk about how you can improve your relationships with friends and loved ones during these challenging times using the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. We emphasized one of the important take home messages in podcast 164 on "How to Help, and How NOT to Help." Sometimes, people just want someone to care about them and listen, without having someone trying to help them or give them advice. Learning to do this can be incredibly freeing, but it’s not easy, because so many of us are addicted to “helping.” If you want some additional help, check out David’s book, Feeling Good Together. Thanks for tuning in, and let us know what you thought about today’s program! Until next time, Rhonda, Alex, Zeina, and David

Rhonda and David are joined today by Dr. Michael Greenwald, who was in the studio following his recording of last week’s podcast. We address a fascinating question submitted by a podcast fan: Sally asks” “How can I help my depressed husband who is leaving me?” Hello Dr David, My husband is going through severe depression and anxiety. He blames me frequently for all the bad decisions he made, and he says he married the wrong woman. He regrets almost every decision he made and says he made the decision [to marry me] under my pressure. Our marriage of 20 years is almost leading to separation. I don’t want to separate, but I don’t know how I can improve the situation. He doesn’t want to go to any doctor. Do you think if I decide to go to TEAM certified therapist, they can work on me to get him out of his depression? If yes, how many sessions will it take? Sally David, Rhonda and Michael discuss this sad and difficult situation that Sally describes. Feeling loved and cared about is vitally important to nearly all of us, and when an important relationship is threatened, it can be extremely painful. It sounds like Sally's husband may be on the verge of leaving her. David describes a powerful and paradoxical strategy he described in Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy, that he has often used to help abandoned wives. The approach is the opposite of "chasing," and is based on experimental research on the most effective ways of shaping the behavior of rats! It also sounds like Sally and her husband have some significant difficulties communicating in a loving and supportive way, like nearly all couples who are not getting along, and certainly some couples therapy or consultation might be a useful step. However, the prognosis for couples therapy isn't terribly positive unless both partners are strongly committed to each other, and willing to work on their own problems, as opposed to trying to change or “fix” the other person. We place a strong emphasis on the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, especially the listening skills, when criticized by a patient, family member, colleague, or just about anyone. If Sally committed herself to learning to use these skills—which are NOT easy to learn—she might be able to develop a more loving and satisfying relationship with her husband, whether or not they separate or stay together. David expresses the opinion that her fixation on “helping” or “fixing” him might be misguided, and might actually irritate him and drive him away. Rhonda, Michael and David illustrate David’s “Intimacy Exercise,” which is a way of learning to use the Five Secrets, and they practice with three of the criticisms Sally has heard from her husband: “You pressured me into marrying you.” “You’re to blame for all the bad decisions I’ve made.” “I married the wrong woman.” After each exchange, the person playing Sally’s role receives a grade (A, B, C, etc.) along with a brief analysis of why, followed by role-reversals. These role play demonstrations might be interesting and useful for you, too, because you’ll see how this exercise works, and your eyes will also be opened to just how challenging it can be to respond to a painful criticism in a skillful way, and how mind-blowing it is when you do it right. You will also see that trained mental health professionals often make mistakes when learning these skills, and how you can increase your skills through this type of practice. David emailed Sally with some additional resources that could be helpful to her. Hi Sally, Thank you so much for your question, and for giving us the permission to read and discuss your question on a podcast. We will, however, change your name to protect your identity. For referrals for treatment, you can check the referral page on my website,  or go to the website of the Feeling Good Institute. There may be some excellent therapists in your area, too. I would recommend the recent Feeling Good Podcast on “How to Help, and How NOT to Help.” . The idea is that listening is sometimes far more effective and respectful than trying to “help” someone who is angry with you. Also, the podcasts on the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, starting with #65, could be helpful, along with my book, Feeling Good Together. There’s also search function on almost every page of my website, and if you type in “Five Secrets,” you’ll get a wealth of free resources. Your husband might benefit from my book, Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy, available on Amazon for less than $10. Research studies indicate that more than 50% of depressed individuals improve substantially within four weeks of being given a copy of this book, with no other treatment. However, the depressed individual must be looking for help, and it’s not clear to me whether the treatment is more your idea, or his idea. You seem to be asking for training in how to treat your husband. Perhaps, instead, you could learn to respond to him more skillfully and effectively using the Five Secrets. Learning how to do psychotherapy requires many years of training, and since he is not asking you for treatment or for help, that plan does not seem likely to be effective, at least based on what I know. In fact, trying to “treat” someone who is clearly annoyed with you runs the danger of creating more tension and anger, but this is not consultation, just general teaching. You would have to consult with a mental health professional for suggestions. Obviously, we cannot treat you or make any meaningful treatment recommendations in this context. But there is no doubt in my mind that there are many things you can do to improve the way you communicate with him and relate to him, if that would interest you. But this would require looking at your own role in the relationship, as well as lots of hard work and practice to learn to use the Five Secrets. Sincerely, David D. Burns, M.D. Thanks for listening to today's podcast! David

  Rhonda and David discuss two challenging questions submitted by listeners like you.  Question #1: Cindy asks: My suicidal daughter refuses to talk to me! What can I do? Comment: Dear David, I stumbled upon you teaching in another podcast a few months ago. Immediately I was stunned by how much your words echoed in my mind. I have listened to your book three times in Audible and many of your podcasts. You Changed my life!!! I am much more relaxed now and I can sleep!!! I talked about you with my massage therapist and she bought your book for her daughter (who has anxiety attacks) and her niece. Her daughter is an aspiring artist who said that she would buy your book and give them away to teens when she becomes famous. I now ask you to change another life, that of my daughter's. She has been depressed for more than 20 years, suicidal (bought a noose, watches suicide movies, talked about ways to kill herself) and no therapists could help. We went to therapy together this past summer and it only ended that she abruptly canceled and is no longer responding to me by any means: phone, text, card, or email. The last time I saw her was late August and she was very down and had very poor personal hygiene. I have since sent her a loving text at least every other day, I offer to drive to her city (an hour away) to have dinner with her, I sincerely apologized for everything I could think of that I have done wrong since she was a child, I sent gifts to her by mail, I invite her to come for holidays, I ask her cousins to call (she did respond to them). No response to me at all. I am wondering how to communicate with a loved one who just totally shut you off. Always your fan, Cindy Thank you, Cindy. Sorry to hear about your daughter, very concerning. My heart goes out to you. Our own daughter had a rough time as a teenager, too, but now is doing great. I hope things evolve with your daughter, too. This podcast may help: https://feelinggood.com/2019/10/28/164-how-to-help-and-how-not-to-help/ as well as this one: https://feelinggood.com/2019/02/04/126-how-to-communicate-with-someone-who-refuses-to-talk-to-you/ The first podcast highlights common errors in trying to “help” someone who is hurting, and emphasizes how to respond more effectively, using the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. The second podcast illustrates how to get people to open up using one of the advanced secrets called “Multiple Choice Empathy / Multiple Choice Disarming. My book, Feeling Good Together, explains these techniques in detail, with practice exercises, and includes an entire chapter on how to talk to someone who refuses to talk to you. You can learn more on my book page. (https://feelinggood.com/books/). Some support from a mental health professional might also be helpful to you, as these techniques sound simple, but are actually challenging to master. Your daughter might also benefit from my book, Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy (https://feelinggood.com/books/). It is not a substitute for treatment from a mental health professional, but research studies indicate that more than 60% of the people who read it improve significantly in just four weeks. It is inexpensive, and I’ve linked to it if you want to take a look. All the best, David Question #2: Lorna asks: How can I deal with my jealousy? Comment: Hi David, I've recently discovered your books and your podcast and CBT has really been helping me in my personal life. I really want to thank you for all the amazing work you do!! The issue I'm having however seems to still really get my moods down and I was wondering if perhaps you could offer some general advice via the podcast. I'm in a great relationship but the ex-girlfriend of my partner has recently moved back to the city where we live and now we are in similar social circles. They were together for a very long time and now I'm really struggling with the prospect of spending time with her. When we all spend time together, it’s actually fine, but afterwards I really struggle with thinking about them together, getting to know her and thinking about her personality and how we compare. I think most people would find this uncomfortable, but it really has triggered a downward spiral for me. My partner and I argued about it and I struggle to let things go that were said in arguments. Do you have any advice on dealing with a situation of an ex-partner being on the scene and perhaps how to not dwell on things that were said during arguments? Thanks, Lorna Hi Lorna, Thanks, might work. What does this mean: “Do you have any advice on dealing with a situation of an ex-partner being on the scene and perhaps how to not dwell on things that were said during arguments?” The rest of the email seems to suggest feelings of jealousy, insecurity, and so forth, as if she is a threat to your current relationship. is this correct? David Hi David, Thanks so much for getting back to me! I don't actually think she is a threat to our relationship, and don't feel that they have feelings anymore for each other, but it just makes me super uncomfortable to think about how long they spent together. I'm always comparing our relationship to what I think their relationship was like in the past. I know I should stop thinking about those things but I really struggle to stop! I know my partner and I are very much in love but I keep having thoughts like “It’s not fair that I have to spend time with her,” or “I feel really guilty because he wants to be friends with her but can't due to how I feel about the situation.” I also feel like he blames me. I was hoping you could shed some light on what you think in general is a good strategy for dealing with situations where an ex-girlfriend/boyfriend of your partner is on the scene and you all have to spend time together. I do have feelings of jealousy and insecurity but I struggle to understand why as I don't believe they want to be together anymore at all. We had a few arguments about it initially where he said things like “you are just angry that I have an ex-girlfriend” or “what's the big deal about it all?” I was so hurt by the way he made my feelings seem petty and trivial. We have both apologized but I keep remembering what he said and how hurt it made me feel. Do you have any advice on letting go of past arguments when the 'problematic situation' (ex-girlfriend being around) is still on-going? Thank you so much! Lorna David and Rhonda discuss this question, and include David’s story in Intimate Connections as a medical student when David had a broken jaw and the ex-boyfriend of Judy, the girl he was living with in Palo Alto, charged into his house with a tough-looking friend and demanded to see Judy. David called the police, and the two fellows left and set, "we're going to get you!" David was terrified, since his jaw was still broken, and got some jaw-dropping advice the advice from his buddy, Sergio. You will be surprised to hear about what happened next! In addition to learning to "let go" of jealousy, Rhonda and David discuss many additional strategies for dealing with jealousy, including: Use of Self-Disclosure Positive Reframing: do you really want to give up your jealousy and vigilance? Cost-Benefit Analysis: Is it worth the hassle of constantly being suspicious, as opposed to simply deciding to trust and let the chips fall here they may? Downward Arrow: What are you the most afraid of? Love Addiction Fear of Rejection Fear of Being Alone Overcoming the fear of being alone and the “need” for this man’s love, or any man’s love, is discussed in the first section of Intimate Connections. Exposure: You could fantasize the two of them together, making yourself as anxious and jealous as possible, until the feelings diminish and disappear. Self-Monitoring: Counting your thoughts about them on a wrist counter or cell phone for four weeks. David describes his work with an intensely jealous law student after his girlfriend broke up with him so she could date another fellow in his class. Understand the frequent ineffectiveness of apologizing, and why it doesn’t work! This is really important. David describes a powerful vignette about a troubled couple, where “I’m sorry” was CLEARLY a way of saying “shut up, I don’t want to feel about how hurt and angry you feel.” The Five Secrets of Effective Communication are a vastly more effective way of dealing with negative feelings. David and Rhonda contrast effective vs. dysfunctional “apologizing.” While it can be important to say "I'm sorry," this formulaic response is usually insufficient because it often ends the conversation but the difficult or hurtful feelings remain. What's important to add is talking about the other person's feelings, thoughts and experiences of the conflict and sharing your own thoughts and feelings.  When you say, "I'm sorry," it's sometimes insufficient because it often ends the conversation, but the difficult or hurtful feelings remain. What's important to add is talking about the other person's feelings, thoughts and experiences of the conflict and sharing yours. After David emailed Lorna with the outline for the podcast, Lorna replied: Hi David, Thank you sounds great! Can’t wait to listen to the episode. I think I will definitely order your book - I think it’s the only one missing for me to have the complete collection. Thanks again! Lorna Thanks for listening today! By the way, if you are looking for CE credits or training in TEAM-CBT, my upcoming workshop on therapeutic resistance on February 9, 2020 will be a good one. You'll learn how to use the techniques described in today's podcast. See below for details and links! David

This will be our last podcast of 2019, so we wanted to make it something special. We also want to thank all of you for your support over the past year, and wish you all the very best in 2020! Thanks to all of you, we surpassed 1.5 million downloads this year, and will likely hit 2 million in the spring of 2020. If you like the Feeling Good Podcasts, please tell your friends and family members, as word of mouth is our best marketing by far. In addition, if you are a member of any mailing lists, send them this link to the list of all the Feeling Good Podcasts. On any given day, 30% of human beings are feeling depressed and / or anxious, so you'll be doing lots of  people a favor, since the podcasts, as you know, are entirely free. We are joined today by Amir Sabouri, PhD, MD, a highly esteemed neurologist from Iran with extensive medical training in the United States in addition to his PhD research in molecular immunology in Japan. Amir specializes in the treatment of horrific neuromuscular disorders such as ALS (the dreaded Lou Gehrig's Disease) at one of our local Kaiser Hospitals here in the San Francisco Bay Area. In today's riveting and inspiring interview, Amir describes how he discovered that, in spite of his extensive technical training, his strongest and most effective medicine by far is sometimes a healing dose of humility and compassion, delivered with the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. We are also joined by our wonderful host, Dr. Rhonda Barovsky, as well as my friend and neighbor, Dave Fribush, who has joined many of our podcasts recently, as well as Steve Reinhard, a certified coach and TEAM-CBT therapist who flew in from Colorado for the Sunday hike and podcasts. Steve will be the featured guest on next week podcast, along with his wife, Barbara, on the topic of "Sadness as Celebration." Back row: Amir, David, Rhonda, and Dave Fribush. Front row: Steve and Barb Amir and I have had a friendship and professional collaboration that goes back several years, when Amir first joined one my Sunday hikes, along with his wife, Dr. Sepideh Bajestan, PhD, MD, who was one of my students during her psychiatric residency at Stanford. In the past couple years, Amir has attended the Sunday hikes regularly and has worked hard to learn and master TEAM-CBT, especially the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, which have begun to play a huge role in his clinical and professional work. Amir begins with a description of the first time he did personal work on one of the Sunday hikes.  At the time, Amir was struggling with feelings of sadness, guilt and inadequacy about his role as a physician and neurologist. That's because, in spite of his incredible background training and research in molecular immunology and neuromuscular pathology, the bottom line was that he had no cure to offer his many patients he had to diagnose with incurable diseases, such as ALS, and he confessed that he often felt like a failure in his attempts to help these unfortunate patients and their families. However, by looking at his own negative thoughts, and pinpointing the distortions in them, he was able to challenge and crush those thoughts, and accept the incredible value of the immense caring and compassion he brought to his work with his patients. The change he experienced on that hike was quite pronounced, and was arguably his first "enlightenment." It was a very moving experience for me, too. Next, Amir tackled the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, and worked extremely hard to practice and master these techniques, which have also been invaluable in his medical work. He describes two recent patient encounters where these skills were invaluable. One involved an angry new patient who aggressively criticized Amir from the very moment he walked in the door. The many also criticized bitterly all the other doctors he'd seen. He complained that he didn't want to be there, that nobody could help, and that nobody cared about him. Amir responded using the Five Secrets of Communication, empathizing and disarming hat the man was saying, and using "I Feel" Statements, Feeling Empathy, Stroking, and Inquiry as well. The man suddenly began to sob and share his deepest feelings throughout his entire encounter with Amir. At the end, Amir was concerned that he'd given him "nothing" other than his efforts at skillful listening using the Five Secrets, and was afraid the man might issue yet another complaint. One hour later, Amir received a touching email from the patient, filled with praise and gratitude, and he said he felt hope for the first time! We talked about the paradox of "giving nothing," just listening with compassion, without trying to help or fix. and how this is often the greatest gift of all. Amir also talked about his interaction with a young woman who suffered horrific complications from a powerful medication that Amir had prescribed for her neurologic problem, and Amir was flooded with guilt and fear, thinking that he had failed her and that he might get sued. But once again, his use of the Five Secrets transformed their interaction into a deeply meaningful connection. We discussed how training in the Five Secrets should perhaps be mandatory for medical students, and residents as well, since rigorous training in communication with patients is not really a part of medical training, although the doctor patient relationship is, of course, given lip-service. Of course, we also strongly feel that Five Secrets training should be mandatory for all human beings! I mentioned an experience I had as a medical student working in the medical outpatient clinic at Stanford under the direction of Dr. Allen Barbour, who wrote a beautiful book on the human side of medicine, Caring for Patients. I was assigned to a mailman who had been struggling with intractable angina, which is relentless chest pain due to problems with the blood supply to the heart. He was scheduled for one of the first open heart surgeries at Stanford. The idea was to improve the blood circulation to the heart, and the surgery was brand new and still somewhat experimental, and potentially quite risky. While I was examining the patient, I had a hunch that something was "off," and asked the man if there were any problems in his life that were bothering him. This led to an unusual and unexpected set of events you can hear about on the podcast. Telling the story so many years later brought tears to my eyes. After the podcast, Steve Reinhard, who had been in our "live audience" at the "Murietta Studios" today, began to cry and mentioned his own struggles with cancer. He told us how hard it has been for him to find compassionate doctors who seem to care, and how wonderful it would be if he could find a gentle, humble and loving doctor like Amir! We decided to edit Steve's comments into today's podcast as well. High tech medicine is wonderful, and evolving rapidly, with new healing miracles every day. But the doctor's most powerful medicine, by far, is still the bedside manner, just as it has been for the last two thousand years. The Five Secrets of Effective Communication can enrich your life, too, and can vastly improve your interactions with loved ones, friends, and colleagues. These tools can also make you more effective in the business world, or in any human interaction. Our world seems very troubled these days, to say the least, and we can all start some healing by changing the way we relate to others and learning to speak with our third "EAR," which stands for Empathy, Assertiveness, and Respect. I hope that doesn't sound hopelessly corny, elderly, or demented, but if so, I will have to plead guilty as accused. Thanks so much for tuning in today, and if you like these shows, please tell your friends! If you would like to learn more about the Five Secrets, a great first step would be to read my book, Feeling Good Together. Make sure you do the written exercises while you read, and make sure you practice as well! On the right hand panel of every page on my website, www.feelinggood.com, you'll find a Search function. If you type in "Five Secrets" or "Relationships," you'll find many helpful podcasts on this topic as well. Learning the Five Secrets takes lots of commitment and practice. It's like learning to play the piano or learning to play tennis. You'll have to work at it. Amir is incredibly brilliant, and he had to work at, too. If you're willing to do the same thing, the results can change your life, too! All the best, Amir, Rhonda, Dave, Steve, and David Note: As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying book purchases. My books are available from virtually any online or in-person book seller.

Lately, I’ve received numerous emails asking, in essence, "how can I help my loved one who has this or that problem?" I would say that I get several emails like that every week. For example, here's one from a man we’ll call “Karl.” Love you podcasts. Listen as often as I can. keep reading your books. Our son is in an unhappy marriage. Last night we talked and he mentioned that there is no love in their marriage. Just coldness. The children "feel" the chasm. There is a lack of trust in the home. Our son feels he did not protect the children in defense of their mom, even though he disagreed with her. Now the children feel their father does not have their best interests. Our daughter-in-law feels that everything is fine. She uses the passive-aggressive "silent treatment" to punish others. Our son says she is controlling and manipulative, and that the children have become that way also. There's no truth in the home. Years ago, she wanted them to go to counseling, but our son refused; now the tables are turned. Sad. We want to help but don't know how to approach it. What podcasts would be helpful to us? And to our son and daughter-in-law? We visit our grandchildren often, sometimes one-on-one. Communications are open with them and with our son. Daughter-in-law feels, and tells others, we are conspiring against her Karl Thank you Karl, for that moving email. It can be really sad and frustrating to see a couple in conflict who are at odds with each, especially when your son and grandchildren are involved. And I can imagine you might also be feeling anxious and a bit helpless, and deeply concerned! When I wrote Feeling Good forty years ago, I tried to make it clear that the cognitive therapy tools I described in that book are for people to use to help themselves. It is okay to correct your own distorted negative thoughts in order to break out of a bad mood. But it is generally NOT a good idea to try to correct someone else’s distorted thoughts, because they’ll just get ticked off at you! This is a very understandable error, because you may get really excited by the things I’m teaching, and how helpful they can be when you’re feeling depressed, anxious, or insecure. So it just makes sense that you would want to share these tools with others. But those are generally NOT the tools to use when you’re talking to your son, daughter, spouse, or friend who’s feeling down in the dumps. There is a way to help someone you love who’s hurting—but you’ll have to use an entirely different set of tools and skills—the Five Secrets of Effective Communication—WITHOUT trying to “help.” So, the short answer to your question is—skillful listening is all that’s called for. Anything more runs the risk of getting you into trouble. But this may require a radical change in the way you communicate, as well as your personal philosophy. Let’s talk about what TO do, and what NOT to do when patients, friends or people you care about express angst, or seem troubled, or describe problems in their lives, and they seem to be hurting a lot. DO NOT Give advice Try to help Try to cheer the person up Try to solve the problem s/he is struggling with Try to get the other person to think or act more positively Try to minimize the problem by saying it’s not that bad, or things will get better. Point out ways the other person may be thinking or acting in a self-defeating manner. Before we tell you what does work, let me focus on just one of these errors, to bring it to life for you. Recently, Rhonda and I recorded a live therapy session with a man named who was upset because his mother had lost the use of her legs to due a rare neurological disorder, and needed much greater care in an assisted living facility. This required selling the house his mother was living so they could afford the assisted living facility, and it was a great loss for everyone, since Kevin was raised in that house, and his parents and grandparents had lived there, too. After Rhonda and I empathized with him for about thirty minutes, we asked the other therapists to offer empathy as well, as part of their practice and training that evening. We stressed the importance of simply summarizing what Kevin had told us (Thought Empathy) and how he was feeling (Feeling Empathy), without trying to “help.” One of the therapists, who was new to the group, kind of missed the mark, She did what we call “cheerleading,” telling Kevin what a wonderful and heroic person he was without acknowledging what he’d be saying and how painful it was for him. You’ll hear this brief excerpt from the session in the podcast. When we asked Kevin how he felt about her comment, he had to tell her that he was embarrassed, and not helped, by what she’d said. Here’s why. When you don’t acknowledge someone’s profound negative feelings of loss, anxiety, sadness, anger, and more, you might unintentionally convey the message that you don’t want to hear about how they really feel inside. And when you cheerlead, it also conveys the message that the person is not very intelligent, and simply has to be cheered up, and then everything will be okay! We cannot be too hard on this therapist, because her efforts came from the heart, and I'm sure she felt sad for this man. And most of us have made the same mistake at times, or even often. I frequently hear parents trying to cheer their children up, or trying to tell their children what to do, or how to change, without really listening. But, most of the time, it just doesn’t work like that! Now that you know what NOT to do, what can you do that WILL help? DO Use the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, with an emphasis on the listening skills. One of the most important skills is called Feeling Empathy—simply acknowledging how the other person is feeling, and asking them to tell you more, and if you got it right. For example, let’s say a friend or family member is procrastinating on something important, like a research report or college application, and is feeling pretty upset and self-critical. You could say something like this: “It sounds like you’re beating up on yourself for procrastinating, I’m wondering if you’re feeling down, sad or depressed? anxious, worried, pressured, or nervous? guilty or ashamed? inadequate, worthless, defective, or inferior? alone or lonely? humiliated or self-conscious? discouraged or hopeless? stuck or defeated? angry, annoyed, hurt, or upset?” I find that people really like it when I ask these questions, and I let them answer each one. Then I ask them about their negative thoughts. What are they telling themselves? What are the upsetting messages? When you use this approach, you are literally doing nothing to “help” the other person, but if you listen skillfully, she or he will probably really appreciate your listening, and you may end up feeling really close. In fact, I (David), had this exact experience just a couple days ago with a student who was struggling and feeling down. Often, the person who’s depressed will be someone you love, like a family member, so your concerns for him or her, and your desire to “help,” are an expression of your love. But listening skillfully will likely be a whole lot more effective. And you can express your own feelings, too, with "I Feel" Statements, like "I feel sad to hear how down you've been feeling, because I love you a lot." Example A woman named Clarissa was concerned because her son, Billy, who is in his early 20s, had been severely depressed for several years, and had not responded to treatment with antidepressants and even lithium. Clarissa had read my book, Feeling Good, and listened to almost all of the Feeling Good Podcasts. She described herself as a true “TEAM-CBT convert because she’d worked with a therapist trained in TEAM-CBT and no longer suffered from the depression and anxiety she’d struggled with most of her adult life. She agreed with a lot of what I’d said on the podcasts about the chemical imbalance theory (there’s no convincing evidence for it) and antidepressants (recent research suggests they do not outperform placebos to a clinically significant degree). But Billy was saying things like this: “Mom, I KNOW I have a chemical imbalance because this cloud will suddenly come over me, and I feel TERRIBLE. It’s not about negative thoughts—I don’t have any negative thoughts. My depression is clearly the result of a chemical imbalance, and I feel doomed by my genes.” Then Clarissa would try to cheer him up, which always failed, or would try to convince him that it’s not about a chemical imbalance and that if he really tried TEAM-CBT, he could overcome his depression, just as she had done. These are such common errors! How could Clarissa respond more effectively? If she focuses on good listening skills, instead of trying to win an argument, she might say something like this: “Billy, I really love you, and feel so sad to hear about your depression. You’re absolutely right, too. Sometimes a bad mood seems to come from out of the blue, with no rhyme or reason. And genes can be important. I've struggled with depression in the past, and maybe you've inherited some of my genes. Tell me more about how you’ve been feeling. Have you been feeling down, anxious, ashamed, hopeless, or angry? What you’re saying is so important, and I really want to her what's it's been like for you.” Can you see that Billy would be more likely to open up and might even share some things that he’s been hiding, out of a sense of frustration, anger, or shame? And can you also see that providing some love and support—pure listening, with compassion—might be a lot more helpful than getting into an argument about the causes of depression? He might open up about all sorts of things that have been eating away at him—problems with girls, sex, sports, or his studies, or concerns about his looks, or even feelings of shame about his depression. The next question is—when DO you help someone? And HOW do you help them. The approach I use as a therapist might be the same approach you’d want to use. At the beginning of every therapy session, I empathize without trying to help, exactly as I’ve been teaching you in this podcast, and in this document, and I give the other person some time—typically about 30 minutes or so—just to vent while I use the Five Secrets of Effective Communication—listening skillfully—without trying to “help.” Then I ask the patient to grade me on empathy. I say, “How am I doing so far in terms of understanding how you’re thinking and feeling? Would you give me an A, a B, a C, or perhaps even a D?” Most of the time, the other person WILL give you a grade. If they give you an A, you’re in good shape. But if they give you an A-, or a B+, or worse, ask them to explain the part you’re missing, or not getting right. When they tell you, you can use the Five Secrets again, summarizing the part you missed, and then ask what your grade is, to see if you’ve improved. Usually, your grade will improve a lot. Do NOT try to “help” until you received an A! So, let’s assume you’ve gotten an A. What then? Then I do what’s called the Invitation Step in TEAM therapy—I ask if the other person wants help with any of the problems s/he has been discussing. You can ask the same question. If the other person does NOT want help, but just wanted to talk and get support, your job is done. You can also ask if they want to talk some more. Most of the time, all people want is a little listening and support, and they’re not looking for help or advice. But if the other person DOES want help, you can ask what kind of help they’re looking for. Then you can decide if you’re in a position to provide that type of help. Sometimes, the help they're looking for might not be something you can provide. For example, they may be angry at someone they're not getting along with, and may want you to tell the other person to change. I explain that this is not something I would know how to do, but I could possibly help them change the way they interact with that person. This may sound really simple, but it takes a lot of practice and determination! It can be a lot harder than it looks. Many people will NOT want to go down this road, and will insist on jumping in to help or cheerlead. You can do that if you want, but in my experience, pushing help on people who are hurting is rarely helpful. The “need” to help or rescue can result from your love and compassion, but it can also result from narcissism, codependency, or the desire to control or dominate another person. I see it as a kind of an addiction, too. If you want to learn more about this, here are some things you can do: You can read my book, Feeling Good Together, and do the written exercises while reading, so you can master the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. This is a BIG assignment, but the reward, in terms of more loving and satisfying relationships with the people you love, will be equally great. You can try using "I Feel" Statements and Feeling Empathy with at least one person every day this week. David D. Burns, M.D. & Rhonda Barovsky, Psy.D.  

In this episode, Dr. David Hanscom talks with David Burns, MD, best-selling author of Feeling Good and Feeling Good Together, about how misunderstandings between couples can exacerbate the experience of chronic pain.  Dr. Burns shares examples that illustrate how hidden feelings in a relationship can result in pain that is used as a weapon against the other person. He describes tools that couples can use to better understand each other's feelings and heal the relationship as well as the pain. For more information, visit: https://www.feelinggood.comDownload a transcript of this podcast.

In this episode, Dr. David Hanscom talks with David Burns, MD, best-selling author of Feeling Good and Feeling Good Together, about how misunderstandings between couples can exacerbate the experience of chronic pain.  Dr. Burns shares examples that illustrate how hidden feelings in a relationship can result in pain that is used as a weapon against the other person. He describes tools that couples can use to better understand each other’s feelings and heal the relationship as well as the pain. For more information, visit: https://www.feelinggood.com Download a transcript of this podcast.

In this episode, Dr. David Hanscom talks with David Burns, MD, best-selling author of Feeling Good and Feeling Good Together, about the evolution of his practice from biological psychiatry to using cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) as a tool for helping patients with depression and anxiety. He discusses the powerful effect that negative thoughts have on how we feel and behave. Becoming aware of and changing those negative thinking patterns and getting to self-acceptance, often has immediate positive impacts, including on chronic pain. For more information, visit: https://www.feelinggood.comDownload a transcript of this podcast.

In this episode, Dr. David Hanscom talks with David Burns, MD, best-selling author of Feeling Good and Feeling Good Together, about the evolution of his practice from biological psychiatry to using cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) as a tool for helping patients with depression and anxiety. He discusses the powerful effect that negative thoughts have on how we feel and behave. Becoming aware of and changing those negative thinking patterns and getting to self-acceptance, often has immediate positive impacts, including on chronic pain. For more information, visit: https://www.feelinggood.com Download a transcript of this podcast.

In this episode, we once again discuss your questions. In particular, this week's discussion points include: Marriage books to read for non-Christians Ways to get your spouse to increase more time together and get in sync Next steps for rebuilding your marriage after it fell apart How to help our kids navigate adults who lack emotional intelligence / awareness Whether your child's enneagram type influences how we discipline and disciple them The Questions:  From Emily: I really like your podcast and have been feeling this urge to put my husband and I more in sync. He thinks we are great and perfect and that you shouldn't mess with something that's not broken. And we are really great most of the time, but I want more. I want us to be "in this together" more. He is fine with watching TV together at night and calling that quality time, however, we don't say any words to each other. I told him that for my birthday, which is at the end of this month, I want his time. I want to read a book together or something and grow our marriage. I think he would rather spend a $1000 on me than read/discuss a book! lol! A little background: he is not spiritual at all, and I don't know if I am a believer these days either. We both grew up Christian. He is very scientific and logical and seems to disprove a lot of the Bible. And when he talks, it makes sense. So y'all talked about Fierce Marriage on your podcast and I thought about reading this together, but I CAN NOT push religion on him or he will check out. I am on the fence about Jesus, but he isn't. So my question is, what book do you suggest we read together to strengthen our marriage and make it even better without pushing religion on my husband too much? Thank y'all! And thank you for being so REAL about marriage and life! From Brooke: My husband and I are struggling with how to parent our kids through interactions with adults who lack emotional intelligence/awareness. Would you guys talk about that? We do feelings in our home, and we expect emotional honesty. However, grandparents and teachers don’t always deal with things the same way. How do we teach our kids to honor emotion and respect authority? When trying to rebuild your marriage, how do you heal past hurts and move forward when you each speak a different love language and one seems to take the other for granted, but we didn’t know until it fell apart? Could you discuss how knowing your child’s enneagram type can help guide the approach used in discipling your child? Show Notes:  To learn more about or to purchase The 5 Love Languages, by Gary Chapman, click here. Marriage books not from Christian perspective: To learn more about or to purchase Feeling Good Together, by David Burns, click here. To learn more about or to purchase The 7 Principles to Making Marriage Work, by John Gottman, click here. Marriage books from Christian perspective: To learn more about or to purchase Fierce Marriage by Ryan and Selena Fredrick, click here. To learn more about marriage coaching, click here.

Having an emotionally safe marriage doesn't just happen. The way we listen to and communicate with our spouse makes all the difference. But doing so takes practice--and the willingness to be empathetic. In this second episode of our two part series, we talk about the building blocks to having an emotionally safe marriage. In particular, we talk about: What it means to be empathetic with our spouse Why labeling emotions makes a difference A simple way of communicating for deeper connection Practical strategies you can implement today Show Notes:  To learn more about marriage coaching, or to set up a free discovery call, click here. To learn more about or to purchase Feeling Good Together, by David Burns, click here. For the blogpost, How 15 Minutes is Changing my Marriage, click here.  

So often, couples tell us that communication is their greatest problem. But more than communication, empathy for what's going on within your spouse's heart is even more crucial to connection and intimacy. In fact, our willingness to genuinely show care and concern for our spouse's feelings is where great communication begins. In this episode, we talk about what it takes to have an emotionally safe marriage. In particular, we talk about: What it means to be "emotionally safe" What hinders us from being emotionally safe for our spouse The three decisions you need to make for an emotionally safe marriage Why blame is the greatest barrier to change Show Notes:  To learn more about marriage coaching, or to set up a free discovery call, click here. To learn more about or to purchase Feeling Good Together, by David Burns, click here. For the blogpost, How 15 Minutes is Changing my Marriage, click here.  

Learning to use the Five Secrets skillfully requires strong motivation and lots of practice, but the benefits can be tremendous. The Five Secrets have transformed my clinical work as well as my personal and professional relationships. And they’ve also had a huge impact on my teaching. But there are even more communication techniques that can be immensely helpful. In this podcast, we discuss three advanced techniques: Changing the Focus. This technique can be tremendously helpful when there’s an “elephant” in the room. Multiple Choice Empathy. This technique can be transformative when you’re trying to connect with a teenager, friend or loved one who refuses to talk to you. Positive Reframing. This technique can be invaluable when you’re fighting with a colleague, patient, friend or family member, and you’re both feeling frustrated, angry, and upset. David emphasizes that these techniques may look easy, but they are actually difficult to learn and require lots of practice as well as the mindset of humility, as well as a strong desire to develop a more loving relationships with the person you’re not getting along with. People who are serious about learning can read Feeling Good Together and do the written exercises while you read!

This is the second podcast on relationship problems. with Dr. Helen Yeni-Komshian. In today's podcast, we address four questions from listeners like you: Our marriage lacks intimacy. What can I do? A podcast fan named David explains that his relationship with his wife is no longer intimate; he complains that they only talk about day to day things on a superficial level. David wants to know if he needs to inject some conflict into the relationship to make it more meaningful or exciting. Why is my wife so critical of me? David wants to know why his wife constantly peppers him and batters him with critical questions, and what he can about it. Why is my friend so critical and dogmatic? Rajesh describes a friend who argues endlessly and accuses Rajesh of being irritating. His friend says, "Anyone would be upset when they try to talk to you!" What's up? Why is this happening? Who's really to blame? Adarah feels lonely and tells her husband what he can do to make her feel loved--but it just doesn't seem to work! Why? And what CAN she do to improve her marriage? I think you will enjoy the lively dialogue between Fabrice, Helen and myself and see us struggling and making some mistakes, too, when we try to model more effective responses based on the Five Secrets of Effective Communication! We also stress, once again, the importance of Interpersonal Decision-Making any time you run into a conflict with a friend, colleague, or loved one. For more information on healing troubled relationships, you can read my book, Feeling Good Together, which is available as a paperback on Amazon. In addition, you can listen to our previous podcasts on the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, beginning with Podcast #65 (Enjoy Greater Intimacy) and several of the podcasts that follow.

The way that you think creates the way you feel. If you have great thoughts then no problem, but if your thoughts are a little distorted, then...look out! Wouldn’t it be great if there were an easy way to look at your thoughts...and change them? As it turns out - there is! In today’s conversation we are going to show you how to identify the kinds of thoughts that lead to depression, anxiety, shame, anger, and self-doubt - and talk about the process that you can go through to eliminate those thoughts for good. Our guest is Dr. David Burns, author of the acclaimed bestseller Feeling Good and one of the leading popularizers of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT). He is also the creator of TEAM therapy, which takes CBT to the next level. Today, David Burns and I are tackling the topic of “cognitive distortions” - the messed-up thinking that can get you stuck in negative emotions. By the end of today’s episode you’ll not only be able to spot the times when your thinking gets distorted, but you’ll know what to do about it so that you can “feel good”. If you want to listen to our first episode together, where David Burns and I spoke about how to apply his work in relationships (based on his book Feeling Good Together), here is a link to Episode 98: How to Stop Being a Victim - Feeling Good Together - with David Burns And, as always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it! Resources: Check out Dr. David Burns's website Read David’s classic books, Feeling Good or When Panic Attacks FREE Relationship Communication Secrets Guide www.neilsattin.com/feelinggood2 Visit to download the transcript, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the transcript to this episode with David Burns Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out Transcript Neil Sattin: Hello and welcome to another episode of Relationship Alive. This is your host Neil Sattin. On today's show, we're going to cover ways that your thinking can be distorted. And, by being distorted can impact the way you feel, the way you behave, the way you interact with other people, and basically get in the way of you being an effectively functioning human being. Neil Sattin: I'm talking about cognitive distortions and they've been mentioned a little bit on the show before, but I wanted to take this opportunity to dive deeply into the ways that our thinking can just be messed up. From that messed upness - and no that is not a technical term -  comes all sorts of problems. Neil Sattin: From today's show, what my hope is for you is that you understand these things well enough so that you can spot them happening in your own thinking and perhaps in the thinking and reasoning of those around you. We're going to talk about effective strategies for changing the pattern. Neil Sattin: In order to do that, we have with us today a fortunate return visit from Dr. David Burns who was on the show back in episode 98 where we talked about how to stop being a victim in your relationship. This was an episode that was all based on David's work in a book called Feeling Good Together. Neil Sattin: If you're interested in hearing that, you can go to neilsattin.com/feelinggood. What I wanted to talk about today relates to some of the pioneering work that David did in popularizing cognitive behavioral therapy primarily through his book Feeling Good which has sold millions of copies all over the world and has been prescribed and shown to actually help people with depression simply by reading the book and going through the exercises. Neil Sattin: I'm very excited to have David with us today, we're going to talk about cognitive distortions, we're probably going to touch on TEAM therapy which is his latest evolution that's attacking some of the problems with cognitive behavioral therapy. And hear about some of the amazing results that that's getting and get some insight into how that even works. Neil Sattin: Without any further ado, let us dive right in. David Burns, thank you so much for joining us again here on Relationship Alive. David Burns: Thanks Neil, I'm absolutely delighted to be on your podcast for two reasons. First, I think you're a tremendous host. You know your stuff both technically and you know my background, you do your homework, that's very flattering to me being interviewed, but also you seem to exude a lot of warmth and integrity, just a pleasure to hang out with you a little bit today and your many, many listeners. Neil Sattin: Thank you. Thank you so much. I appreciate your saying that. This stuff is important to me. I'm hoping that this podcast makes a big difference in the world and the way that we do that is through being able to feature amazing work like what you do. I don't want to forget to mention that you also have your own podcast, the Feeling Good Podcast that has amazing insight into the work that you're doing. Neil Sattin: In fact, you record sessions with people so people can actually hear you working with clients and then explaining how you did what you did and also getting direct feedback from the people that you're working with. That's a fascinating show and how many episodes have you put out at this point? David Burns: I think Fabrice and I are up to roughly 60, in the range of 60. One really neat bit of feedback we're getting is that a lot of therapists now are requiring their patients to listen to the Feeling Good podcasts. There's been a lot of research on my book Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy and studies have shown that if you just hand the book to someone with moderate to severe depression, 60% of them ... 65% of them will improve dramatically within four weeks. David Burns: That's really, really good news. It's called bibliotherapy or reading therapy, but now we're getting this ... I'm getting the same kind of feedback from people who are listening to the podcasts and saying that just listening to the Feeling Good Podcast had a dramatic effect on their depression or their obsessive compulsive disorder or whatever is bothering them. I'm hoping that that trend will continue. Neil Sattin: Yeah, someone's going to have to study podcastio-therapy. David Burns: Yeah, right. You may be having the same thing Neil on your relationship broadcast from people with troubled relationships following the information and the techniques you're providing and perhaps experiencing genuine improvement in their relationships, greater intimacy and love. Neil Sattin: Absolutely. I'm getting that kind of feedback all the time from listeners and I also hear that therapists, particularly couples therapists are having their clients listen to the show and even sometimes prescribing specific episodes for them to listen to. It feels really good to be able to be an adjunct part of people's progress and therapy. David Burns: Congrats. That's great. That's a real credit to the quality of what you're offering. Neil Sattin: Thank you. Thank you. Well, let's dive in. Enough kudos although it does feel really good, though I guess that doesn't surprise me considering you're the author of Feeling Good. Quick point of clarification. Is it the just handing of the Feeling Good book that has a 60 to 65% improvement rate or did the people actually have to read some of it to get that? David Burns: All they have to do is touch it. The improvement comes through osmosis and many of those who have read it have gotten worse. They don't have good data on that in the studies. It's people coming to a medical center for the treatment of depression and in the original studies, they said that they had to be on a waiting list for four weeks and during the four weeks, read this book. David Burns: Then they continued to test them every week with various depression tests and half the patients went to some kind of control group who were on a waiting list control for four weeks or they gave them some other book to read like Viktor Frankl's book Man's Search for Meaning and in all of the studies, the patients who were given a copy of Feeling Good, two thirds of them had improved so much within four weeks that they didn't need to have treatment anymore at the medical center. David Burns: They never got antidepressants or psychotherapy. Then they've done follow up, up to two year follow up studies on these patients as well. For the most part, they've continued to do well or even improve more and have not had significant relapses. The alternative groups who got Victor Frankl's book did not show significant improvement or people on waiting list control. David Burns: They were pretty well done studies sponsored by research from ... sponsored by National Institute of Mental Health and other research groups. Forrest Scogin is a clinical psychologist at University of Alabama and he pioneered a lot of these studies, but there have been probably at least a dozen replications of that finding that have been published now with teenagers, with elderly people and with people in between. Neil Sattin: Yeah, I want to just say, your book despite having been published a little while ago now is eminently readable and I did read it a while ago. In fact, I think it was one of the first "self-help books" that I stumbled across probably around when I was graduating from college. In sitting down and revisiting it in preparation for our conversation today, I was just struck by how personable, for a book that's about cognitive behavioral therapy which is something that I think just calling it that probably turns a lot of people off. David Burns: You bet. Neil Sattin: The truth is that reading it through, it just makes so much sense and I love how you bring humor into the subject and in many ways talk about yourself as an author in some of the quizzes around the kind of thoughts that undermine our self-esteem. Anyway, I definitely recommend it. Neil Sattin: If you're not one of the millions of people who have already read it, you should pick it up and if you are, I would suggest picking it up again to just glean again what more is there. We're going to talk about one of the central topics in the book which is how our thinking affects the way we feel. Neil Sattin: Maybe we just start there because that was one place where I even in upon revisiting, I got a little confused and in the past, that's made total sense to me. Yeah of course, I make something mean something and that gives me an emotional response to it which ironically makes me think of Victor Frankl's work. Neil Sattin: At the same time, I know that we have feelings that just our bodies kick in with emotional responses in a split second when something happens. That seems to precede thought. How do you parse that apart in a way that makes sense? David Burns: Well, the basis of cognitive therapy and we've moved on to something new called TEAM therapy or TEAM CBT, but I think the basis of cognitive therapy which as far as it goes it's still pure gold goes back to the Buddha 2,500 years ago and to the Greek philosophers like Epictetus 2,000 years ago that humans are disturbed not by things, but by the views we take of them that you have to interpret an event in a particular way before you can have an emotional reaction to it. David Burns: This thought is so basic that our thoughts create all of our moods. We create our emotional reality at every moment of every day by the way, we interpret things, but that's such a basic idea that many people can't get it or they don't believe it. I had an example of this at my workshop in the east coast recently - I was in a hotel. David Burns: I've had many afflictions myself in my life. I love to treat people with depression or anxiety because whatever they have I could say, "Oh, I've been there myself." I can show you the way out of the woods, but when I was little, I had the fear of heights and then I got over it completely as a teenager through a high school teacher who had me stand on the top of a tall ladder until my fear disappeared and took about 15 minutes and it was dramatically effective. David Burns: Suddenly, my anxiety went from 100 to zero and I was free, but it crept back in because I stopped going up on heights not out avoidance, just I had no reason to and then suddenly I realized it had returned. I was on a hotel on one of these glass elevators and I was going up to the 14th floor and I was looking down into the elevator and I had no emotional reaction whatsoever and it was because I was telling myself and this was automatic I guess, but you're safe. David Burns: However, if there hadn't been that glass there and it would have been the same elevator going up and looking out, I would have been paralyzed with fear and terror and it would have been a total body experience that I can feel in my whole body this extreme terror. That's the first idea that you can't have an emotional reaction without having some kind of thought or interpretation. David Burns: You feel the way you think - your thoughts create all of your moods. After Feeling Good came out, I got a letter from a therapist in Philadelphia. He was a student therapist at the Philadelphia Marriage Counsel I believe and he said he had read my book Feeling Good: How Your Thoughts Create All of Your Moods. David Burns: He said, "Well, that's a great idea, but how can it be true? If you're on a railroad track with a train coming and you're about to get killed, you're going to feel terrified. You don't have to put a thought in your mind, it's just an automatic reaction." He said, "I don't believe your claim that only your thoughts can create your moods." David Burns: I got that letter and I started thinking, I said, "Gosh, what he's saying is so obvious, how could I have missed that when I wrote that book?" I felt embarrassed and ashamed. A couple days after I got that letter, I was in a taxi coming home from the airport and at a certain place on River Road, you go over this railroad track. David Burns: I looked down the railroad track, I saw there was a car driving on the railroad track at about two miles an hour. Bumpety-bumpety-bump. I looked then in the other direction and this is ... Freight trains come through here, they never stop, they come at 65 miles an hour. I saw one about a mile and a half in the other direction. David Burns: I said, "Man, that guy is going to get smashed by the train." I told the taxi driver, "Stop, I got to try to get that guy off the railroad tracks." I ran up and knocked on the window and he rolled down the window and there's this older man there and he said, "Can you please direct me to City Line Avenue?" David Burns: I said, "City Line Avenue is 10 miles in the other direction, but you're on the railroad tracks and there's a train coming. You've got to back up. Back up to get to the road." Because he was beyond the road, where you know how they have a pile of rocks at the railroad tracks, that's where he was and I said, "Back up, I'm going to get you off the railroad tracks." David Burns: He backed up and he kept ... When he got to the road, I said, "Now turn, turn your car." Finally I had them positioned to where just the nose of the car, the front part of the car was over the tracks and I was standing in front of it. Now the train was about maybe 20 seconds from impact and they had their whistle on. David Burns: I was waving my hands like, "Back up, back up. Just back up five feet and it will save you." Instead, the guy started creeping forward very slowly. Neil Sattin: Oh no. David Burns: The train smashed into him at the side of his car at about 60 miles an hour. Neil Sattin: Oh my goodness. David Burns: Actually ripped the car in half. The front compartment was thrown about 30 feet from the tracks. They had their brakes on, the train was skidding to a stop and I ran over again to the driver's compartment and looked in, it was all smashed windows and I thought I'd see a decapitated corpse, but it hit probably an inch behind his head and it hit so fast it had just cut the car in half and he didn't seem to be that injured or anything. David Burns: He looked at me and smiled and said, "Which way exactly did you say now to City Line Avenue?" I said, "You got to be kidding me." I said, "You were just hit by a train." He said, "I was not." He says, "That's ridiculous." I said, "Oh yeah, what happened to the windows of your car?" David Burns: Then he looked and he noticed all the windows were smashed and there was glass all over. Then he says, "Gosh, it looks like somebody broke my windows." I said, "Look, where's the back seat? Where's the back half of your car?" He turned around and he saw the back half of his car was missing. David Burns: He looked at me and he says, "I think you're right. Half of my car seems to have disappeared." He says, "Where is this train?" I said, "Look, it's right there, it's 20 feet from here." Now the conductors were rushing up and the engineers and he looked at me and he says, "This is great." David Burns: I said, "Why is that? Why is this great?" He says, "Well, maybe I can sue." I said, "You'll be lucky if they don't sue you. You were driving down the railroad tracks." I couldn't understand it and at this point, the police cars came, the ambulance, they put him in an ambulance, I gave my story to the police, he looked just fine and they took him to the Bryn Mawr Hospital. David Burns: I was just scratching my head and I got in the taxi, it was just a mile from home, the taxi driver took me the rest of the way home. I was saying, "What in the heck happened?" The next day I was jogging around that same corner, of course, there was all this litter from the car or broken pieces of metal and glass all over the place and there was a younger guy maybe 50 years old or something like that going through the rubble. David Burns: I stopped there and asked him who he was and he says, "My father was almost killed by a train here yesterday and somebody saved his life and I was just checking out the scene." I said, "Well, that was me actually." I said, "I didn't understand it -  he was driving down the railroad track and if I hadn't gotten there, I think he would have been killed." David Burns: I said, "Why was he driving down the railroad track?" He says, "Well, my father has had Alzheimer's disease and he lost his driver's license 10 years ago, but he forgot and after dinner, he snuck out. He grabbed the keys and snuck out, decided to take the car for a drive." Here is the same situation, a train about to kill somebody on a railroad track about to smash into you and I had the thought this guy is in danger he could be killed. David Burns: I was experiencing 100% terror and anxiety and fear, but his thought was different. His thought was, "This is great. I might be able to sue and get a great deal of money." Therefore he was feeling joy and euphoria. Same situation, different thoughts and radically different emotions. David Burns: That's what I mean and that's what the Buddha meant 2,500 years ago when we say that only your thoughts can create your emotions. It's not what happens to you, but the way you think about it that creates every positive and negative emotion. Neil Sattin: Did you ever write back to that person who wrote you? About that train - to tell him what had happened? David Burns: I don't remember it because this was way back in 1980 shortly after the book came out. I probably did because in those days, I was so excited to get a fan letter. I never had any idea that the book would become popular, it didn't hit the best-seller list until eight years after it was published because the publishers wouldn't support it with any marketing or advertising because they thought no one would ever want to read a book on depression. David Burns: When I got a letter in the days before email, I would get so excited and I would try to contact the person and sometimes talk to them for an hour or two on the telephone thinking this might be the only fan I'll ever have. I'm sure I did write back. Neil Sattin: Speaking of that, this might be a good chance to start talking about the cognitive distortions and like the idea that this might be the only fan that you ever have, what are we talking about in terms of now we've established pretty well. The way I think about things is going to determine how I feel. Neil Sattin: Yet, there are these distorted ways of thinking about the world that really have an enormously negative impact on our ability to function and interact. David Burns: This is one of the amazing ideas of cognitive therapy that at first I didn't quite grasp, but the early cognitive therapists like Albert Ellis from New York and then Aaron Beck at University of Pennsylvania who I learned it from were claiming not only do your thoughts create all of your moods, but when you're upset, when you're depressed, when you're anxious, when you feel ashamed or excessively angry or hopeless, not only are those feelings created by your thoughts and not by the circumstances of your life, but those negative thoughts will generally be distorted and illogical so that when you're depressed, you're fooling yourself, you're telling yourself things that simply aren't true and that depression and anxiety are really the world's oldest cons. David Burns: Beck - when I first began learning about cognitive therapy from him when I was a psychiatric resident and postdoctoral fellow, he had about four distortions as I recall and he had big names for them and then I added some to those and I used to talk to my patients about all-or-nothing thinking and overgeneralization and self-blame and the different ones. David Burns: Once, I was having a session with a patient and he said, "Why don't you list your 10 distortions and hand it out to patients?" He said, "It would make it so much easier for us." I thought, "Wow, that is a cool idea." I ran home that night after work and I made the list of the 10 cognitive distortions and that's what led to my book Feeling Good. David Burns: My list of 10 cognitive distortions, it's probably been reproduced in magazines and by therapists all over the world, I would imagine easily millions of times and probably tens of millions of times, but there are 10 distortions. Number one is all-or-nothing thinking, black or white thinking. David Burns: It's where you think about yourself in black or white term, shades of gray don't exist. If you're not a total success, you think that you're a complete failure or you tell yourself you're defective. I gave a workshop with Dr. Beck at one of the professional conferences like the Association for Behavioral and Cognitive Therapies, cognitive therapy had just come out and Beck is not a very good public speaker. David Burns: I was a novice also at the time and we had a half day workshop and there were a few hundred therapists there and it was okay, but it wasn't great and they started challenging us because nobody liked the idea of cognitive therapy initially, it was scorned and looked down on. We got defensive and then afterwards Dr. Beck looked at me and said, "David, you look like you're feeling down. What's the problem?" David Burns: I said, "Well, to tell you the truth Dr. Beck, I thought we were below average in this presentation and I'm feeling upset about that." He said, "Oh, well you should, if we were below average, you should thank your lucky stars." I said, "Why should I thank my lucky stars if we were below average?" David Burns: He said, "Because average is the halfway point. By definition, we have to be below average half the time. We can thank our lucky stars we got the below average one out of the way and we look forward to an above average one the next time we present." Suddenly, my discouragement disappeared. David Burns: He was just modeling thinking in shades of gray whereas I had been thinking in black and white terms. All-or-nothing thinking is very common in depression and it's also the cause of all perfectionism - thinking if you're not the greatest, second best or average just is not good enough, it's either the world or nothing, perfection or failure and it creates tremendous problems. Neil Sattin: Yeah, I could see that also coming up in terms of comparisons like if so and so is already doing this thing, I can't possibly do that because it's so and so's domain. As if one person could own the domain for the entire world in any particular area. David Burns: Well yeah, that's another mental trick that we play in ourselves with the distortions I call mental filtering and discounting the positive. You see this all the time when you're feeling inferior and comparing yourself to other people. Mental filter is where you focus on all of your flaws thinking about all of your errors. David Burns: You don't think about what's good about you or what's beautiful about you. I did a TV show finally when the book gained popularity in Cincinnati and it was a morning show and they had a live audience and a band and he was interviewing me. It was exciting for me because it was still the first time I had any media exposure. David Burns: Then after the show, the host said, "Dr. Burns, could I talk to you for a minute?" This often happens to me when I'm on a radio or TV show because the people in the media have tremendous pressures on them and they often also feel that they're not good enough. I said, "Sure. I'd love to. What's the issue?" David Burns: He says, "Well, after every morning show, I get about 350 fan mails, fan letters or calls or whatever." He said, "They are 99.9% positive, but everyday I'll get one critical letter. One critical feedback and I dwell on that one constantly and make myself miserable and ignore all the other positive feedback." That's called mental filter because you filter out the good stuff and you've just focused on your flaws. David Burns: A lot of the people listening to the show right now do that. Then an even bigger mental error is called discounting the positive - when you say that the good things about you don't even count. You may have done this to yourself when someone gives you a compliment, you might tell yourself, "Oh, they're just saying that to be nice to me. They don't really mean it." You discount that positive experience. David Burns: I had a colleague who got upset when he recently won the Nobel prize, one of my college roommates, and the reason he got upset is he said they haven't recognized my best work yet. So those are three of the 10 distortions. Neil Sattin: Yes. One of my favorites I think comes next on your list, at least the list I'm looking at after discounting the positive which is the ways that we jump to conclusions. David Burns: Right. There's two common patterns here, jumping to conclusions that aren't warranted by the facts and mind-reading and fortune-telling are two of the commonest ones. Now, fortune-telling is when you make a prediction about the future, an arbitrary prediction about the future and all anxiety results from fortune-telling, telling yourself that something terrible is about to happen - like when I get on that plane, I just know it will run into turbulence and crash. You feel panic and anxiety. David Burns: Depressed people do fortune-telling as well. Hopelessness results from predicting that things will never change, my problems will never get solved, I'm going to be miserable forever. Almost every depressed patient thinks that way and that's actually why many people with depression commit suicide because they have the illogical belief that their mood will never improve, that they're the one untreatable person. David Burns: Mind-reading is the other common form of jumping to conclusions and this is real common in social anxiety, but Neil, I'm sure you see it in a lot of people with relationship problems. Neil Sattin: Absolutely. David Burns: But mind-reading is where you assume you know how other people are thinking and feeling without any evidence, without any data. I used to struggle with intense social anxiety among my many other fears and phobias that I've had and overcome over the years, but the anxious person - say you're at a social gathering and you think, "Oh, these people won't be interested in what I have to say and they never feel anxious. I'm the only one who feels insecure." David Burns: Then you also may have the thought, "Oh, they can see how anxious I am and they're going to be real turned off by me." Then what happens is that when you start talking to someone, you get really busy worrying about how they're not going to be interested in you. You try to think of something clever or interesting to say while they're talking. David Burns: Then when they're done, instead of repeating what they said and expressing an interest in what they said, you make the little speech you had prepared. That turns the other person off because I think, "Wow, David doesn't seem interested in me. I was just telling him about my son, he was just accepted to Harvard and now he's talking about something else." David Burns: That person pretty quickly loses interest in you and says, "Oh, I have to talk to so and so on the other side of the room." Then you, the shy person get rejected again which is what you thought was going to happen. Although these are distortions, you're thinking in an unrealistic way, they sometimes feel like self-fulfilling prophecies so you don't realize that you're fooling yourself. Neil Sattin: Right, because when you're in it, then you seem to be getting plenty of evidence that it's true. David Burns: Yes, and another form of evidence comes to another distortion. One name I made up called emotional reasoning where you reason from your feelings. You see this in angry interactions, you see that in anxiety and in depression. The depressed patient is giving themselves all these messages like I'm a loser, I'm no good and beating up on yourself and then you feel ashamed and guilty and worthless and inferior and inadequate. David Burns: Then you say, "Well, I feel like a loser, I must really be one." Reasoning from your emotions, thinking your emotions somehow reflect reality. That thought by the way is one we skipped over - overgeneralization. That's number two on the list actually, right after all-or-nothing thinking. David Burns: Overgeneralization, this is a Buddhist thing, really overgeneralization. It's where you generalize to yourself from some specific event. For example, I have a free training for Bay Area psychotherapists every Tuesday evening at Stanford and you don't have to be a Stanford student to come,  I give unlimited free psychotherapy training to therapists who can come to my Tuesday group and any of the listeners or therapists near in the Bay Area on a Tuesday email me and you're welcome to attend my Tuesday training group. David Burns: Then I also have free hikes every Sunday morning and we go out hiking for maybe three and a half hours on the trails around my home and I treat people for free on the hikes. We do training and one of the women on the Sunday hike, I'll keep it vague to protect her identity, but she just had a problem with her boyfriend and they broke up and then she was telling herself, "I'm inadequate ... I'm unlovable" kind of thing. David Burns: "This was my fault and I must have been doing something wrong." You see, when you think like that and most of us do when we're upset, she's generalizing from this event, that it didn't work out with her boyfriend to then this global idea that "I'm inadequate. There's something wrong with me" - as if you had a self that wasn't good enough. David Burns: Then people also say, "I'll be alone forever. I'm unlovable. This is always happening to me." That's all over generalization where you generalize from a negative event and you see it as a never-ending pattern of defeat. You also see it as evidence that you're somehow defective or not good enough than when you're thinking these things, they seem so true - just as believable as the fact that there's skin on your hand. David Burns: You don't realize that you're fooling yourself, the pain that you feel is just incredible. I know that of the many people listening to this show right now, I'm sure you can identify this with this that you've had thoughts like that and you know how real and painful these feelings are. David Burns: It's one of the worst forms of human suffering, but the good news is and we haven't gone around to that, but not only are there fantastic techniques, cognitive therapy techniques that we've been talking about from my book feeling good described in there or my feeling good handbook so that you can overcome these distorted thoughts and get back to joy and self-esteem quickly, but also my group at Stanford over the 10 years, the past 10 years, we've created even more powerful techniques and to help bring about really high speed recovery for people struggling with depression and anxiety. David Burns: The new techniques are way more powerful than the original cognitive therapy although those methods are still fabulous, but maybe we'll have time to talk about some of these. David Burns: But there's more distortions to cover. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Maybe what we could do because I'd love to balance this out and I want to ensure that we cover the other distortions. We have maybe four more. At the same time, maybe let's break from the distortions just to change things up a bit and start entertaining that question of, "Alright, yeah. I relate to some or all that we've even listed so far." Neil Sattin: What are some of the initial steps that someone could talk because where I tend to go with this is like, "Well, these belief patterns like you talked about, "I'm unlovable" as one, those seem to emerge from a place that's immutable. It's something that's really deep in someone's psyche and yet, you're suggesting that there's ways to transform that that are really quick and direct and give someone a felt experience of the truth that's not that thing. David Burns: Yeah, that's right. You can group the techniques into cognitive techniques to crush these distorted thoughts and motivational techniques to get rid of your ... To bring your resistance to change to conscious awareness and melt away the resistance. The patients become incredibly motivated to crush their thoughts. David Burns: An example of the way the cognitive techniques work, what is crucial and this is one of the first things when we first created cognitive therapy in the mid 1970s was to write the negative thoughts on a piece of paper. It's a very humble thing to do, but it can be dramatically effective because then you can look at the list of 10 distortions and immediately, pinpoint the distortions and that makes it much easier to talk back to these disruptive thoughts and poke holes in them. David Burns: I'll give you an example of my own personal life because I've used these techniques myself and if they hadn't worked for me, I never would have become a cognitive therapist and now a TEAM CBT therapist, but when I was a postdoctoral fellow, I used to go to Dr. Beck's weekly seminars and I would present all my most difficult cases and get tips from him on how to treat these people with what was then the rapidly emerging brand new cognitive therapy and it was an exciting time, but one day, I talked to him about a patient that wasn't paying the bill, that I've had a bad session with this patient and asked him for some guidance. David Burns: He actually was pretty critical of the way I had dealt with this patient. I became awfully upset, I got depressed and anxious and I was riding home on the train and my head was filled with negative thoughts and negative feelings. Then when I got home, I told myself, "Well David, you probably better run, go on a long six mile run and get your brain endorphins up so get over your depression" because those were the days when everyone was believing the phony baloney that somehow exercise boosts brain endorphins and will reduce depression. David Burns: I went out on this long run and the longer I ran, the more believable my negative thoughts became. I said, "David, what are you telling yourself?" I said, "Oh, I'm a worthless human being. I have no therapeutic skills, I'm going to be banned from the state of Pennsylvania and they'll take away my medical license, I have no future in psychiatry. I'm a worthless human being, I'm a bad person." Stuff like that. David Burns: It seemed overwhelmingly true. I said, "Are there some distortions in your thoughts David? Look for the distortions like what you tell your patients." I said, "No, there are no distortions in my thoughts. This is just real." I was telling myself it's so weird to hear, you're something like 30 years old or however old I was, 31, it took you all of this time in your life to realize what a horrible loser you are. David Burns: It's as if I had seen the truth for the first time and it was devastating. Then when I got home, I said, "David, why don't you write your thoughts on a piece of paper? That's what you make all of your patients do." I said, "Oh no, no, my thoughts are real, that won't do any good." Then I told myself, "But isn't that the same way you're whining just like your patients whine and resist? And you force them to write their thoughts down on a piece of paper. You tell them they have to do that. Why don't you try that David?" David Burns: I said, "No, no, it wouldn't do any good. I really am a worthless human being. This is true." Then I said, "No David, you're still resisting. Take out a piece of paper and do what you tell your patients to do." I said, "Oh okay, I'll do it just to prove that it won't work." I wrote my thoughts down. Number one, I'm a worthless human being, number two, I have no therapy skill. David Burns: Number three, I screwed up with this patient. Number four, they'll take away my medical license, stuff like that. I wrote down four or five thoughts. Then I said, "Now, are there any distortions?" I looked at my own list of 10 distortions. I said, "Wow, those thoughts are pretty distorted. It's all-or-nothing thinking, black and white thinking like I'm not allowed to make a mistake with a patient. It's overgeneralization, I'm generalizing from the fact that I screwed up with this patient in a session to, "I am a worthless human being," it's fortune-telling, "I have no future in psychiatry." David Burns: Jumping to conclusions, self-blame, hidden "should" statements, that's another distortion. I shouldn't have screwed up, I should always be perfect. It was emotional reasoning, I feel worthless, I must be worthless. I suddenly saw those distortions and then I said, "Now, can I write a positive thought to challenge these negative thoughts?" That's the other part of the exercise. First you write the negative thought, then you identify the distortions, then you write a positive thought. David Burns: The positive thought has to be 100% true. Rationalizations and half truth will never help a human being. I came up with this positive thought. I said, "David, you're just a beginner. You have the right to make mistakes. In fact, even when you're 75 years old years from now, you might be a great therapist, but you'll still make mistakes and learn from them. That's part of the territory." David Burns: "You're absolutely permitted to do that. Instead of beating up on yourself, why don't you talk it over with your patient tomorrow and tell him that you made a mistake and see if you can repair that rupture in your relationship with the patient." All of a sudden, I said, "Is that true?" "Yeah, that thought is 100% true." How much do I believe this rubbish that I'm a worthless human being and all of that and my belief in those negative thoughts went to zero and my negative feelings just disappeared in a flash entirely. I said, "Wow, this shit is pretty good. This really works." Hope you don't have to edit out that word. Neil Sattin: No, that's fine. That's fine. David Burns: Then the next day I saw the patient, I said, "You know Mark, I've been feeling terrible since last session and ashamed because I don't think I treated you right." I was putting pressure on you because of the unpaid balance and I didn't put any emphasis on your suffering and what's going on with you as a human being I just imagine you felt so hurt and angry with me and discouraged and I'm just overjoyed that you came back today rather than dropping out of therapy so we can talk it over and see if we can deepen our relationship. David Burns: He just loved that and we had the best session ever, he gave me perfect empathy scores at the end of the session, but that's just an example from my personal life and I'm sure the people here can relate to that, but I've developed probably 50 or 100 techniques for crushing negative thoughts and I've made it sound easy, but it isn't always easy because you might be very, very trapped in your negative thoughts. David Burns: You might have to try several of the different techniques before you find the one that works for you. I want to be encouraging to the listeners and to therapists who may be listening, but I also don't want to make it sound like something overly simple or overly simplistic because it's really a pretty high-powered, sophisticated type of therapy. David Burns: Fortunately, many people can make it work on their own, but anyway, that's the half of the treatment breakthroughs and that was called the cognitive revolution and my book Feeling Good really helped usher that in when feeling good came out in 1980, cognitive therapy was virtually unknown and they were just a handful of cognitive therapists in the world. David Burns: Now, it's become the most popular form of psychotherapy in the world and the most researched form of psychotherapy in all of the history of psychology and psychiatry. Neil Sattin: I wonder if we could emphasize because I'm thinking about how we talked about the technique for identifying a negative thought, identifying the cognitive distortion or distortions that are happening and just to talk about the importance of actually going through that exercise and writing it down. Neil Sattin: Maybe you could just talk for one more minute about why that part is so important. Why is it important to actually write that stuff down versus to do it in your head? David Burns: I think that the negative, the power of the human mind to be negative is very profound. The negative thoughts are like a snake eating its tail, they go round and round and one leads to the next. David Burns: In the early days, I used to try to do cognitive therapy without the written exercise and to this day, new therapists still try to do that. They think they're too fancy that writing things down is too simplistic or something like that and they're going to be deep and just do verbal, deep stuff with people, but the problem is, the human mind is so clever. David Burns: Each distortion reinforces another one and each negative thought reinforces another one and you go round and round and round. That's why doing it verbally or in your head when you're alone is rarely going to be effective, but when you write the negative thoughts down one at a time and number them with short sentences, that makes it much easier to identify the distortions in them and turn them around. David Burns: There are three rules of thumb. There's an art form to writing them down. Everything is more sophisticated than I make it sound in a brief interview. There's a lot of rules of the game. For example, when you're writing down negative thoughts, you should never put an emotion or an event. David Burns: People have a negative thought like Trisha rejected me and I feel terrible. Well, that's not a negative thought. That's an event. Trisha rejected me and I use a form called the Daily Mood Log and at the top you put the event and then you circle all of your emotions and put how strong they are between zero and a hundred. David Burns: These emotions might be feel guilty, ashamed, lonely, depressed, worthless and then the negative thought would be the interpretation of that event like I must be unlovable, I'll be alone forever. Then those are things that have distortions. A second rule is don't ever put rhetorical questions in the negative thought column. David Burns: If you say something like, "Oh, why am I like this? Why am I so anxious in social situations?" Or "What's wrong with me?" You can't disprove questions so instead you can substitute the hidden claim behind the question which is generally a hidden should statement like I shouldn't be like this or I must be defective because I'm so anxious in social situations or some such thing. David Burns: There are probably one or two other rules of the game and my book When Panic Attacks which is one of my newer books on all the anxiety disorders, Feeling Good is on depression. When Panic Attacks is on all of the different kinds of anxiety. I think the third chapter shows how to fill out the Daily Mood Log and what the rules are to follow to enhance the effectiveness of it so you'll be more likely to have a successful experience. Neil Sattin: Great. The idea is that it's simply by doing this process that the things shift. It's not like there's ... You go through the process and then maybe you would track your mood afterwards and see, "Wow, I'm actually feeling better than I was before" just by simply doing that? David Burns: Well, a lot of people can feel better just by doing it, but the research has shown that two thirds of people just by reading Feeling Good, they can improve a lot in depression, but some people need the help of a therapist and it isn't true that everyone has to do it on your own, sometimes you need another person to get that leverage to pop out of it. David Burns: Another thing that's helpful when you're writing down your negative thoughts is Beck's theory of cognitive specificity. You see, Buddha said our thoughts create our emotions, but Beck took it to the next level and said different patterns of thoughts create different types of emotions. David Burns: If you're feeling guilty, you're probably telling yourself that you're a bad person or that you violated your value system. If you're feeling hopeless, you're definitely telling yourself that things will never change, something like that. I'll be miserable forever. If you're feeling anxious, you're definitely telling yourself something awful is about to happen. David Burns: "When I get on that show with Neil, I'll screw up, my brain will go blank." That type of thing. When you're feeling sad, you're telling yourself... or depressed, that you've lost something central to your self-esteem. When you're feeling angry, you're telling yourself that someone else is a loser that they're treating you unfairly, that they shouldn't be that way. David Burns: These rules can also help individuals pinpoint your negative thoughts. Once you see what the emotions are, then you know the kind of thoughts to look for. One last thing is sometimes people say, "Oh, I don't know what my negative thoughts are." I just say, "We'll just make some up and write them down and number them." David Burns: Then I say, "Are your thoughts like this?" They say, "Oh, that's exactly what I'm thinking." Those are a few tips on refining the part with the negative thoughts. But now we have even more powerful techniques that have evolved in my work with my training and development group at Stanford. Neil Sattin: Yeah, before we talk about those, which I hope we will have time to do - there are a couple of things that jumped out at me. One was as you were describing the distortions that we've already talked about, it popped into my head that this is often at the source of most conflict that happens in couples - that either one person is having distorted thinking or one person is protecting themselves from their own distorted thinking. Neil Sattin: For example, your partner says something and you have this feeling like, "Well, that's not true. I got to defend myself from that accusation." David Burns: That's right yeah. Neil Sattin: You jump into this place of conflict that's all about proving that this negative concept you suddenly are perceiving about yourself isn't true. When that negative concept in and of itself might be an example of you just having a distortion - like for instance, "my partner is mad at me, that must mean they think I'm a horrible human being." David Burns: Yeah, what's huge what you just said, when we're in conflict with people, there's a lot of inner chatter going on in addition to the verbal altercations, the arguing, the escalation, the defensiveness - and some of the distortions will be focused on the other person and some of the distortions will be focused on yourself. David Burns: You see all of the 10 cognitive distortions in relationship conflict, but they have a little bit of a different function I would say. Now, let's say you're angry, Mary is angry at her husband Sam, she's ticked off and then if you look at her thoughts, they have all 10 distortions. David Burns: She'll tell herself things like, she might be thinking, "Oh, he's a loser. All he cares about is himself. The relationship problems are all his fault, he'll never change." That type of thing. You sell all-or-nothing thinking, mind-reading, imagining how he's thinking, you see blame, you see hidden should statements, he shouldn't be like that, he shouldn't feel like that. David Burns: You see discounting the positive, mental filtering, overgeneralization, magnification, minimization. You see all the same 10 distortions. The only difference is that when you're depressed and I can show you that your thoughts about yourself are distorted and that's not true that you're a loser, you're going to love me, the therapist, you're going to appreciate that and you're going to feel better and you're going to feel better and recover from your depression. David Burns: When people are in conflict and we're having distorted thoughts about the other person, we're generally not motivated to challenge those distortions because they make us feel good. We feel morally superior to the other person. I don't generally work with people too much on changing their distortions about others because they don't want to hear it. David Burns: If the therapist finds out that this woman, that her thoughts about her husband are causing her to be upset, not her husband's behavior, and in addition that her thoughts about her husband are all wrong, wrong, wrong, they are all distorted, she'll just fire the therapist and drop out of therapy and she'll have two enemies, her loser of a husband and her loser of a therapist. David Burns: That's why I developed some of the techniques we talked about in the last podcast we did on relationships. I used slightly different strategies, but you're right, those distortions are incredibly positive and the other kind of distortion you have when you're in conflict if someone's criticizing you, again you may start thinking, "This shows that I'm a loser, I'm no good. I should be better than I am. If you're criticizing me, that's a very dangerous and terrible situation." David Burns: By attending to those kind of thoughts that make you feel anxious and ashamed and inferior and guilty and inadequate, then you can modify those and then do much better in the way you communicate with the other person because your ego isn't on the line. An example with me is in my teaching, I always get feedback from every class I do, every student I mentor or supervise from every workshop and I get it right away, I don't get it six months from now, I get it the very day that I'm teaching. David Burns: I get all kinds of criticisms on the feedback forms I've developed even if I have a tremendous teaching seminar, I'll get a lot of criticisms especially if they feel safe to criticize the teacher. I find that if I don't beat myself up with inner dialogue, then I can find the truth in what the student is saying and treat that person with warmth and with respect and with enthusiasm even. David Burns: Then they suddenly really love the way that I've handled their criticism and it leads to a better relationship and that's true between partners or in families as well. That inner dialogue that's where we're targeting ourselves and making ourselves needlessly anxious and defensive and hurt and angry and worthless when we're in conflict with someone - that can be adjusted and modified to really enhance relationships. Neil Sattin: The two distortions that we hadn't really covered yet, you just mentioned them and I thought ... We've mentioned them all at this point, but some of them like blaming, whether it's blaming yourself for a situation or blaming others for a situation, that seems a little self-evident. Neil Sattin: I'm curious if you could talk for a moment about labeling and then also magnification and minimization just because I think those are the two that we listed, but didn't really cover. David Burns: Did we mention shoulds? Neil Sattin: Let's mention them and I think again, that might be something that's a little more understandable for people, but yeah, let's do this. David Burns: Oh yeah, okay. Yup. Well, labeling is just an extreme form of overgeneralization where you say I am a loser or with someone else, "He is a jerk." Where you see yourself or another person as this bad glob so to speak. Instead of focusing on specific behaviors, you're focusing on the self. When you think of yourself as a loser or a hopeless case, it creates tremendous pain. David Burns: When you label someone else as a jerk or a loser, it creates rage and then you'll often treat them in a hostile way and then they treat you in a hostile way and you say, "Oh, I know he was a loser." You don't realize you're involved in a self-fulfilling prophecy and you're creating the other person's, you're contributing to or creating the other person's hostile behavior. David Burns: Magnification or minimization is pretty self-evident - where you're blowing things out of proportion - like procrastinators do that. You think about, "All you have to do, all the filing that you're behind on." It feels like you have to climb Mount Everest and you got overwhelmed and then minimization, you're telling yoruself, "Oh, just working on that for five or 10 minutes would be a drop in the bucket. It wouldn't make a difference." You don't get started on the project. David Burns: We've done those two. The should statement say I think is very subtle and not obvious to people at all that we beat up on ourselves the shoulds and shouldn'ts and oughts and musts and we're saying, "I shouldn't have screwed up, I shouldn't have made that mistake. I should be better than I am."   David Burns: That creates a tremendous amount of suffering and shoulds go back - if you look at the origin in the English dictionary, maybe we did this in our last podcast, I don't recall that if you have one of these thick dictionaries, you'll find the origin of the word should is the Anglo's accent word scolde, S-C-O-L-D-E where you're scolding yourself or another person, where you're saying to your partner, "You shouldn't feel that way." Or, "You shouldn't believe that." David Burns: We see that politically, two people are always blaming someone they're not in agreement with and throwing should statements at them. Albert Ellis has called that the "shouldy" approach to life which is a cheap joke I guess, but it contains a lot of truth. The feminist psychiatrist Karen Horney who actually I think was born in 1890s did beautiful work on shoulds - when my mother, when we moved to Phoenix from Denver, I think my mother got depressed and she read a book by Karen Horney on the Tyranny of the Shoulds, how we give ourselves all these should statements and make us feel like we're not good enough and we're not measuring up to our own expectations and create so much suffering. David Burns: I think that book was very helpful to her and then Albert Ellis in New York saw that, he argued and I think rightly so that most human suffering is the result of the shoulds that we impose on ourselves or the should statements that we impose on others. Neil Sattin: Well, if that's true, then maybe that should be what we take a moment to attack and I'm wondering if you have a powerful crushing technique that works with shoulds whether it's and maybe it would be a little bit different, the ones that we wield against ourselves versus so and so should know or should have done this differently. David Burns: Right. Well, a lot of the overcoming has to do with the mystical, spiritual concept of acceptance, accepting yourself as a flawed human being is really the source of enlightenment, but we fight against acceptance because we think it's like giving in and settling for second best. We continue to beat up on ourselves thinking if we hit ourselves with enough should statements, we'll somehow achieve perfection or greatness or some such thing. David Burns: One thing that I learned from Ellis that has been really helpful to my patients is that there's only three correct uses of the word should in the English language. There's the moral shoulds like the 10 commandments, thou shalt not commit adultery, though shalt not steal or thou shalt not kill. David Burns: There's the laws of the universe should where if I drop a pen right now, it should fall to the earth because of the force of gravity and then there's the legal should. You should not drive down the highway at 90 miles an hour because that's against the law and you'll get a ticket. Now, I had a colleague who came on one of the hikes who has a developmentally challenged child, say a son just to disguise things a little bit and she's from a very high achieving family, Silicon Valley family just to say the least. David Burns: She and her husband are giants, geniuses and then she went to the grammar school for the parent's day and they had all the kids and they have their daughter in some very expensive private school. The kid's pictures were up on the wall and then she saw her son's picture and it was just very primitive compared with the other children who are real high-powered children from high powered families. David Burns: Her son struggles severely and then she saw that and she felt the feeling of shame. Then she told herself, "I should not feel ashamed of my son." That's hitting herself with a should statement which it's like she doesn't have permission to have this emotion and that's what we do to ourselves.   David Burns: That's not a legal should, it's not illegal to feel ashamed of yourself or your son. She then was also of course feeling ashamed of herself. It's not immoral and it doesn't violate the laws of the universe. A simple technique that Ellis suggested and it's so simple it goes in one ear and out the other instead of saying, "I shouldn't, you can just say it would be preferabe if or I would prefer it if or it would be better if." David Burns: You could say it it would be better, it would be preferable if I didn't feel ashamed of my son, but that's the human feeling and probably other parents feel upset with their children, they feel ashamed sometimes of their kids or angry with their kids. It's giving yourself permission to be human and that's called the acceptance paradox. David Burns: The paradox is sometimes when you accept your broken nature, accept your flaws and shortcomings, you transcend them. I've often written that acceptance is the greatest change a human being can make, but it's elusive and Buddha tried to teach this 2,500 years ago when I saw on TV and I don't know if was just a goofy program, but it was on PBS that he had over 100,000 followers in his lifetime and only three achieved enlightenment. David Burns: I think it was frustrating to him and disappointing, but I can see it clearly because what he was teaching was so simple and basic and yet it's hard for us to grasp it and that's why I love doing therapy because we've got powerful new techniques now where I can bring my patients to enlightenment often in a single therapy session if I have more than an hour. David Burns: If I have a two hour session, I can usually complete treatment in about a session and see the patient going from all the self-criticism and self-hatred and misery to actually joy and euphoria. It's one of the greatest experiences a human being can have because when my patient has a transforming experience, then it transforms me at the same time. Neil Sattin: Can you give us a taste of what some of the more powerful new techniques are and how they might work in these circumstances? David Burns: Yeah, they're pretty anti-intuitive and it took me many years of clinical practice before I figured it out and before it dawned on me. I would say very few therapists know how to do this and it's absolutely against the grain of the way therapists have been trained and the general public have been trained to think about depression and anxiety as brain disorders. David Burns: The DSM calls them mental disorders. We've gone in the opposite direction and I'll just make it real quick because we're getting long on people's time here I'm afraid, but when I am working with a person, like last night at my Tuesday group, we were working with a therapist and someone who's in training to become a therapist and she was being very self-critical and telling herself she wasn't smart enough and just beating up on herself and saying that she was defective and she should be better at this and she should this, she shouldn't that. David Burns: She was feeling like 90% depressed and 80% ashamed and intensely anxious. One thing I do before I ... She had all these negative thoughts, "I'm defective" and I don't have the list in my hand, but she had about 17 very self-critical thoughts. After I empathized and my co-therapist was Jill Levitt, a clinical psychologist who I teach with at Stanford and Jill is just a gem, she's fantastically brilliant and kind and compassionate and humble. David Burns: After we empathized with this individual and I'll just keep it vague because most therapists feel exactly the same way so I won't give any identifying details, but we asked this young woman, "Would you like some help today?" With her depression and anxiety. If we had a magic button on the table and she pressed it, all our negative thoughts and feelings would instantly disappear. David Burns: Would she press the magic button? She said, "Oh yeah, that would be wonderful." I guess she's felt this way on and off throughout her life since she was a little girl that she is somehow not good enough. Then we said, "Well, we have no magic button, but we have amazing techniques." But before we use these techniques, maybe we should ask, "What are your negative thoughts and feelings show about you that's beautiful and awesome?" David Burns: Also, "what are some benefits to you in having all of these negative thoughts and feelings?" She was very puzzled by that at first as most therapists are like, "How could there be benefits from having depression? We learn that's some kind of mental disorder or major depressive disorder, dysthymic disorder, all these fancy names pretending that these are mental illnesses of some kind. David Burns: But then she got in the flow, we primed the pump a little bit and she was able to come up with a list of 20 overwhelming benefits to her and beautiful things about her that were revealed by her negative thoughts and feelings. For example, when she says, "I'm defective." She will say, "Well, it shows that I'm honest and accountable. Because I do have many flaws." David Burns: Then a second benefit was "it shows that I have high standards." I was able to say, "Do you have high standards?" She said, "Absolutely." I said, "Have your high standards motivated you to work hard and accomplish a lot?" She says, "Oh yeah, absolutely." That was the third benefit. Then the fourth benefit is her self-criticism showed that she's a humble person. That was the fourth benefit, the fourth beautiful thing it showed about her. David Burns: Then we pointed out that humility is the same as spirituality. Her self-criticism shows that she's a humble and spiritual person and then her sadness showed her passion for what she hopes to achieve which is a role as a therapist and a good therapist and her self-doubt keeps her on her toes and motivates her to work really hard. David Burns: Her suffering shows enhances her compassion for others and her shame shows that she has a good value system, a good moral compass and on and on and on, then we came up with a list of when we got to 20 benefits of her negative thoughts and feelings, then we simply said to her, "Well, maybe we don't want to press that magic button because when your negative thoughts and feelings disappears, then these other good things will disappear as well. Why in the world would you want to do that?" David Burns: We have become the role of her subconscious mind and the therapist is paradoxically arguing for the status quo and not arguing for change. The therapist's attempt to help or change the patient is actually the cause of nearly all therapeutic failur

First in a series of podcasts on how to transform troubled relationships into loving ones—if that's what you want to do! David begins with the story of how he got into working with troubled couples as well as individuals with troubled relationships shortly after his first book, Feeling Good, was published. Because cognitive therapy was beginning to generate excitement worldwide as the first drug-free treatment for depression, everyone thought it might also be effective for other kinds of problems, including troubled relationships. And there were fairly good reasons to suspect that cognitive therapy might be helpful. When you’re in conflict with a loved one, friend, colleague or stranger who you can't get along with, you’ve probably noticed that you will usually have negative thoughts like these running through your brain: It’s all his fault. (Blame, All-or-Nothing Thinking) She’s a jerk. (Labeling, Should Statement, Mental Filter, Hidden Should Statement) He’ll never change! (Fortune Telling, All-or-Nothing thinking, Discounting the Positive, Emotional Reasoning) All she cares about his herself. (Mind-Reading, Discounting the Positive, Mental Filter, Over generalization) I’m right and he’s wrong about this! (Blame, All-or-Nothing Thinking) She shouldn’t be like that. (Should Statement, Blame) Sound familiar? And as you can see, these thoughts contain all the same kinds of cognitive distortions that depressed individuals have, as I've indicated in parentheses. If you're familiar with the cognitive distortions, you may be able to pinpoint even more than the ones I've listed. The only difference is that when you're in conflict with someone, the distortions will usually be directed at the person you’re not getting along with, rather than yourself. Although these thoughts will usually be distorted, you may not realize this (or even care) when you're upset. You'll probably be convinced that the person you're mad at really is a jerk, or really is to blame, or really is wrong. In addition, these thoughts will tend to function as self-fulfilling prophecies. For example, if you think someone is a self-centered jerk, you will usually treat him or her in a hostile or unfriendly way, and then he or she will get defensive and hostile, and will look like a jerk. Then you'll tell yourself, "See, I was right about him (or her)!" David got excited about these insights and wrote a draft of a book called Couple in Conflicts, Couples in Love, and sent it to his editor in New York to see what she thought. The new book was about how to modify the distorted thoughts and self-defeating beliefs that trigger and magnify relationship problems. David's editor called the next day with an offer of a large advance, exclaiming excitedly that the book was sure to be a #1 best seller. David was ecstatic, and set out to edit the book for publication. In the meantime, he was using the new approach with troubled couples as well as individuals with relationship conflicts. But after six months of repeated treatment failures, he concluded that cognitive therapy was not at all effective in the treatment of relationship problems. The approach sounded great on paper, but it didn't work in the real world. David sadly returned the advance to his publisher and cancelled the contract. He promised that if he could figure out why cognitive therapy didn't work for troubled relationships, and if he could find a better treatment method, he’d write another book. Figuring it out took 25 years or research and clinical experience, and the name of the book he eventually did publish is called Feeling Good Together, now available on Amazon.com. David and Fabrice then discuss some of the most popular theories about the causes of relationship problems: The skill deficit theory: We want loving relationships, but don’t have the communication and negotiation skills to get close to the people we’re not getting along with. The barrier theory: We want loving relationships, but something gets in the way, such as unrealistic expectations or distorted thoughts about the person we’re not getting along with. Other barrier theories include the idea that women are from Venus and men are from Mars popularized by John Gray, Deborah Tannen, and others. According to this theory, women use language to express feelings, and men use language to solve problems, so they both end up frustrated and not understanding one another. Another popular theory is the idea that we project childhood conflicts with our parents onto others, and thus recreate the same dysfunctional patterns repeatedly in every new relationship. The self-esteem theory: You can’t develop loving relationships with others if you don’t know how to love yourself. The motivational theory: We have troubled relationships because we WANT them! David emphasizes that the first three theories are all very optimistic--they all are based on the idea that human beings are basically good and want loving, peaceful, joyous relationships. But something gets in the way, such as a barrier of some type, or the lack of communication skills, or the lack of self-esteem. And they are all very hopeful, since we can teach people better skills, or remove the barriers to intimacy, or help people develop better self-esteem. David also emphasizes that these theories have only two problems. First, the theories that they're based on are false. Second, the treatments that have evolved from these theories are not effective. David and Fabrice describe research on the validity (or total lack of validity) for these theories as well as the effectiveness (or lack of effectiveness) of the treatment techniques and schools of therapy that have evolved from these theories. David then discusses the motivational theory which is much less optimistic about human nature, and emphasizes that humans have competing positive and negative motives. In the next podcast, they will discuss the basics assumptions of the new treatment approach David has created for relationship problems, based on the motivational theory.

When it comes to the success of your relationship, how much are you standing in your own way? How do you get really clear on your part in the dynamic? And how do you work some magic in the way that you communicate, to connect no matter how challenging the moment? Joining us this week is Dr. David Burns, a Stanford emeritus professor who is also the author of Feeling Good - one of the most popular self-help books (dealing with depression) of all time. He is one of the chief popularizers of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT), and has recently been developing TEAM therapy, which addresses some of CBT’s shortcomings. David Burns is also the author of Feeling Good Together, which applies his practical approach to relationships: how to thrive, as well as how to turn a troubled relationship around.   Changing the question: When it comes to relationship difficulty and challenges, many of us are quick to point fingers at THEM. We believe it is the fault of the other person, and we spend a lot of energy blaming them. The question that will lead to hope and growth is not “will the other person ever change?” but rather, “am I willing to change?”. By looking at our own behaviors and beliefs we are able to regain a sense of power, and gain access to our ability to effect change. By changing ourselves we can’t NOT change those around us! By coming from a radically different place ourselves we find we can transform the entire relationship dynamic. Outcome resistance: While interpersonal transformation is possible with new perspectives and new skills, nothing will in fact help if there is a core resistance to the possibility of change. Before diving deeply into the hows of changing your relationship dynamics, you must first ask yourself “Do I want a better relationship with this person?” Allow the answer to surprise you. There are actually many possible motives and factors that could be competing with your authentic desire for expanded joy and intimacy (sometimes we’d rather blame, be right, even hate). Process resistance: If in asking the above question you find that you do indeed want to become closer with your partner (or whomever you are in conflict with), the next question is whether you are willing to give up blame and look instead at your own role in the dynamics?  In your heart of hearts, who do you think is more to blame for the quality of your relationship? You or the other person? The prognosis for your relationship if you are in a victim mentality are close to zero - this stance is dangerous and debilitating. That said, are you willing to begin to look at yourself as part of the cause? And are you then willing to engage, from this place, in a process to help transition your relationship from a place of hostility into a place of love? If you find that you are unwilling to make this shift towards responsibility, or do not feel you are interested or able to engage in making changes on your own, you may be experiencing process resistance. This resistance is important to listen to and must be addressed before expecting yourself or your partner to change any further. Exploring resistance exercise: To do this exercise, take one sheet of paper and create two columns, on one side list all of the advantages of remaining resistant and on the other list all of the disadvantages. For example, the advantages of continuing to feel as though it is THEIR fault may sound something like: I don’t have to feel guilty, if I can continue to blame them I don’t have to feel any pain, I get support from others when I complain and play victim, it is satisfying to scapegoat others, I feel morally superior, I don’t have to change, it helps me feel like there is nothing wrong with me, it lets me be angry all of the time, it justifies my passive aggressive or revenge type behavior. The disadvantages of resisting responsibility, on the other hand, may sound something like: keeps me feeling powerless, maintains painful status quo, being angry all the time is exhausting, I don’t feel centered in my best self, I feel disconnected from my compassion, there is a sense of stagnation, I don’t experience any growth or room for learning, I am constantly stressed, I experience anxiety and depression and loss of intimacy, this just feels unhealthy. When you finish your lists add up the total notes you made in each column and reflect on the balance you see. In what ways has your resistance to looking at your own role in your relationship been helping you, and in what ways has it been harming you? And what, now that you see all of this written in front of you, are you feeling ready and open to? Looking at your own role: Nearly all relationship problems are encapsulated in any single thirty second exchange shared between two people at odds with one another. To explore this, take a moment of conflict you experienced recently and write down exactly what the other person said, and then what you said next. What you said next determines the entire outcome and if you look closely with humility you will see just how your response/reaction triggered the exact problem that you have been complaining about. This realization can be incredibly painful and humiliating as we spend so much of our energy focused on what the other person said or didn’t say and so convinced that it is all their fault!  Although painful, this realization is also our key into the potential for transformation! Free yourself from victimhood: When we see ourselves as victims we do not see the impact of our behavior on the other person, and we stay blind. If you have the courage to look, and to examine the role you play in conflict and tension you will become empowered. By freeing yourself of victimhood through noting the ways you are the one who is creating the very problem you are suffering with, you begin to see how you also have the power to transform the relationship by thinking about it and communicating in a radically new way. From here change can occur quickly, and even, at times, easily. Try keep a relationship journal: As mentioned above, we can learn a lot about our role in our relationships by checking out the ways we do or don’t respond and react to our partners during conflict. To do this in a methodic way, follow these steps: 1) identify and write down something that someone else said that triggered you 2) write down your response in the moment 3) assess whether your response was an example of good or poor communication (see below) 4) enlightenment step: ask yourself “what was the impact on the other person of my responding the way I did?” 5) revise what you could have said using the techniques listed below   EAR- Good communication requires patience, presence, and skills. EAR stands for empathy, assertiveness, and respect. It is communication that incorporates EAR that creates feelings of mutual acknowledgement and safety and leads to repair and connection versus escalation and disconnection. 5 secret techniques of effective communication (no particular order): Disarming technique- This technique is about finding truth in what the other person says, no matter what. It is based on the law of opposites which posits that if you defend yourself from criticism that feels unfair you prove that it is valid. This paradox however can work in reverse! If instead of defending and negating an irrational criticism you choose to genuinely agree with something they said then you help prove it isn’t the case and the other person will quickly stop believing. Escalations occur when people feel unheard or misunderstood and by finding truth in what someone is saying, and you do it with respect and humility, it becomes music to their ears and can be incredibly soothing. Thought and feeling empathy- Though empathy is when you repeat the words that someone else says in order to help show them you heard their message. Feeling empathy is when you acknowledge how the person is probably feeling given what you hear they are saying to you.   Inquiry- Inquiry is the process of asking gentle probing questions to get more information about what other person is thinking or feeling. Assertiveness- Assertiveness is the skill of communicating your subjective experience through “I feel” statements. This requires expressing your feelings in a direct, yet gentle and non-threatening way. Stroking- This is the skill of conveying warmth and respect even in the heat of a moment. Show, say, or do something that expresses to your partner that you are there in an open and loving way. You are the god of your own experience: We are creating our interpersonal realities in every moment of every day. We are not the victims of our experiences, but rather the god who is creating our own reality. The enlightenment step described above, in which you ask yourself how your reactions are impacting your relationship dynamics can lead some to mystical and spiritual insights. This turning towards ourselves as the cause is a practice. It isn’t easy! Be patience with yourself while you are learning to grow in this new way!   Resources: Be sure to check out David Burns’ website for loads of free resources, a blog, a podcast, the workshop schedule, and so much more! Read his book Feeling Good Together Also read David Burns’ book Feeling Good www.neilsattin.com/feelinggood Visit to download the show guide, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the show guide to this episode with David Burns Our Relationship Alive Community on Facebook Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out

Find out what's in store for the upcoming 100th episode of the Relationship Alive podcast! Also, this week is an opportunity for you to get caught up on episodes you've missed, or to revisit ones that have had an impact on you. Looking forward to seeing you next week with David Burns, author of Feeling Good and Feeling Good Together.