Podcasts about pete it

Pete Neubig has been investing in real estate since 2001. He has owned and managed 39, 52, and 100-unit apartment complexes. He currently owns single-family homes and a 52-unit apartment complex. Pete created a property management company based on the motto "by investors for investors". His property management company has clients from Houston and all over the world. His technology-based systems allow owners to see everything that is happening at their property without having to be involved. Pete leverages virtual assistants to do more than he can do on his own. A real estate virtual assistant (VA) is a business admin who essentially acts as your right hand. A real estate VA can offer a variety of business services in-person or remotely. The right VA can cover diverse tasks like lead gen and database management, or even finance and marketing. Tune in for today's episode where Pete talks about how he uses virtual assistants and what real estate investors should be aware of when they want to take this step in building a team. Episode Link: https://www.vpmsolutions.com/ --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The Remote Real Estate Investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Michael: Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of the Remote Real Estate Investor. I'm Michael Albaum and joining me again today for a recurring visit is Pete Neubig and he is the founder of VPM solutions. He's gonna be talking to us today about virtual assistants and what we as investors should be aware of and how we can utilize them to our advantage. So let's get into it.   Pete Neubig what's going on man, you are back for more didn't have enough the first time we had.   Pete: Man, Michael, thank you so much for bringing me back on. I had we had such a blast. You know, last time just talking about my investor jury and then right at the end, we got to talking about my new venture and so I'm glad, thank you so much for having me back to talking about my new venture.   Michael: Of course, no, super, super excited. So for those who didn't catch the tail end of our conversation from your prior episode, give us a quick and dirty who you are, and what you're doing in real estate and what your company is all about.   Pete: Sure. Well, my name is Pete Neubig. I'm out of Houston, Texas, I started buying properties in 2001. I bought so many that I failed miserably at it that I ended up creating a property management firm in 2012, sold that firm in 2019 and in 2020, I started VPM solutions and we went live with our product in 2021 and VPM solutions is think of it as a dating service. It's like it's an online marketplace that connects people in the United States and Canada, like employers, you know, people in real estate, with contractors in mainly Philippines and Mexico, but we're in about 60 different countries where we have different contractors and so that's you know, so we're like, like dating service, like match.   Michael: I love it, I love it, I love it. Okay, so who are your clients? Kind of on the investor side and then who are your contractors on the contractor side, just random, random people?   Pete: Yeah, that's a great question. So we really try to stick with the real estate industry. So because I'm a property manager by trade, we started with property management and so we targeted property managers in the United States and Canada, right, because in property management, as most of your clients know, especially if they self-manage, is a process oriented and is a people oriented business, right? It there's a lot of things you have to do manually and so you can't automate as you can automate a lot. But there's still a lot that has to be done manually. So we started there. So that's our main clients, we're now breaking into the real estate and brokerage side of things because there's a lot of work, there's a lot of help, they need like transaction coordination, and just generating leads and appointment setting, so we're there, as well and on the contractor side, what we're looking we advertise we do quite a bit of advertising in different countries, just letting people know, hey, you can work from home, you can pretty much make a little bit more money than what you can get, you know, in your environment and we actually build some, it's called LMS. But it's video training, that you can literally take video training for free to learn more about right now is property management. But we're going to be built, we're going to be throwing some other videos out there always well, we'll be adding more video training out there and so are our contractors, somebody who's bilingual, someone who's educated, and somebody who's looking to make a little bit more than what they what they make in their own in their own country, and that they want to get into real estate, mainly property management or in the real estate industry.   Michael: Okay, interesting. So I am like, the whole concept of a VA is I understand it, but it's totally foreign to me, I've never utilized one but I know people who have so give all of our listeners who are listening, a little bit of background or insight like why should someone consider a VA, like what benefits do they bring?   Pete: Yeah, another great question, man. It's like, so, here's the main thing, right. What happens is, you get so much work, that you need to hire somebody, right? Whether it's whether you're self-managing, and like me and Steve, what my business partner, we were self-managing properties and next thing, you know, we had all these maintenance requests, we had all these leases that had been renewed and we had all these resident questions and we have lease marketing, and it gets daunting and all of a sudden your conical passive job becomes very, very active very quickly and so now you have to either A) hire somebody or B) you know, hire a property manager or hire somebody internally, right and so when you start looking at assistants in the United States, what happened was, especially after the pen EMIC with inflation. So what's happening is those low level low enjoyment tasks that that you don't want to do as the you know, as the investor or as the self-manager you want to give to somebody else? Well, if you, you try to hire that person United States, typically what happens is that job role doesn't pay what people want.   So for example, it might be like the job role might only pay 30,000 a year, right? That's a full time, whatever, but the person wants 50,000 a year and if you pay that person, what they wanted, you would make you would be negative cashflow, you will make any money. This happens quite a bit when you're managing your own properties and you're kind of building your portfolio and adding more properties to your portfolio. It's like all of a sudden, you're overwhelmed overworked, to hire somebody, now you're cash negative and so and then what happens is with these folks, what I found in my personal job, my personal company, Empire industries, when we when we started, we manage over 1000 units. When I hire people in the US, they have like a GED, or that you're getting very, like you're getting very low, you know, schooled, low education type people, and what happens is one, they're not appreciative of the opportunity get, and then two, they always want more money, and then three, they always bring in their outside challenges into your business, the car doesn't work, they take more time off, you know, they have family drama, that kind of comes into your business and so in the past, what happened was, you have to be stressed out to make money in property management. So I have I have, I have, I have all these doors are managing, I have all this work that needs to be done, I have to hire somebody. But as soon as I hire somebody, now I'm not profitable. So now I have to go get more properties to manage, so that I can bring the income up and now everybody's stressed again and the reason why everybody's stress is because I'm hiring people in the States, which, you know, demand a much higher hourly rate, if you will and so what I realized is, if I, if I hire if I outsourced, in a second or third world country, I can get educated people, bilingual educated people, that will work for a lot cheaper than somebody in the US and it's not, I'm just going to pay them less because they're in the Philippines or they're in Mexico, it's that in Mexico, $10 an hour goes a lot further than $10 an hour in Houston, or $10 an hour in Northern California. So the way I tell people look at is like this, if I took if I was doing the same job in Northern California, as I do in Houston, Texas, I'd get paid a lot more for that job in Northern California, because the cost of living, right, and then I'd get less money doing the same job in Houston, because of the cost of living and I probably make, I probably even get paid less if I was in like Arkansas, because of the cost of living. The dollar still travels just as far. Well just think of Mexico, as you know, as the next level down of cost of living. Just because you're paying somebody $10 an hour doesn't mean you're taking advantage of them. Matter of fact, $10 an hour in Mexico is a very good hourly wage. It's actually a very good wage and then in Philippines, to give you an idea, Michael $4 an hour is a good wage in the Philippines.   Michael: Wow.   Pete: And you think you save yourself? There's no way we're gonna take advantage these people? No, I mean, $4 an hour is a good wage in the Philippines. So it's, you know, as a criminal getting paid very well here in the States and so, the reason why people are outsourcing is because I can get bilingual and by the way, most of these people are either their high school educated or greater. They have some type of education after high school, whether it be associate's or a college degree. So you're getting educated people that that are bilingual, for a fraction of the costs in the United States that you are in the United States and because these low level jobs can, you can only pay so much. Now you can actually pay what the job role requires, which means now you can make more money in the company, right and then I'll turn this around on how we actually helped our US people, because I had people in Empire that were that were making some money. The ones I hired the virtual team members like oh, Pete, you got rid of jobs. Actually, no, they got rid of themselves because I couldn't afford them anymore. They wouldn't work at the level I needed them for the company make money. But once I hired these other virtual team members in the company started making money, I was able to actually pay my US people more, I was actually able to get better benefits for my US people, right because these are contract workers in the Philippines and Mexico and you know, Costa Rica, wherever you're going to hire them from and so they're contract workers, so they work they get paid, that's great. But your team members in the US once a company starts making more money, you can treat your kids because their employees right so you can treat them better stock options or 401k, whatever it was. So for us, it was bonuses, it was higher salary and we started doing we started we started looking at it we start doing health insurance. So that's how we were able to benefit out team. So the next question is, well, what can a VA do that somebody in the US?   Michael: Yeah, that's exactly where I was gonna go with it.   Pete: What I'll tell people is the VA can do anything that the person in us can do except for two things. One, obviously, if they need to be physically at the property, right, right, they can't they can't do that and then we'll do if they need a license, if they need a license to do something, they can't do license act, right. So give you an example, though. We actually had one of our virtual team members do all of our lease renewals? Well, you say, well, P That's a licensee Act and the you know, you need to be licensed to do lease renewals and the answer is actually, you don't need to be licensed to just create the lease renewal, you need to be licensed to negotiate the lease renewal. So what we would do is 90% of our lease renewals were not negotiated, most people just sign the lease renewal, right, most of our owner clients, or our residents would just sign the lease renewal and the ones that would have questions, that would get escalated to our property manager and so what we did just that one, just that one job role, what we did is we literally took 90% of the work away from the property manager gave it to give it to the virtual team member and then a product manager took the escalations. Now, I'm a big proponent of it, the way you can save your company, so to speak, a lot of a lot of stress and noise is can you automate through policy and can you automate through, you know, computer technology, in this case, what we did in this, you have to look at it but in Houston, we know that the average rate, the average renewal rate would go up about 2% per year over time. Now, some years, it would go up more in other years, it wouldn't go up at all, it actually would go down. But over time we…   Michael: need in terms of like the rent, like how much rent, you're getting rent increase the renewal… Yeah, okay.   Pete: So we did is we just create a policy that our rent increases every 2% every year, and we put that in the lease. So there was no negotiating, right on the residence side...   Michael: It wasn't up for discussion…   Pete: Right, so but if people say, hey, I'm gonna leave unless we do XY and Z, well, that would get escalated but we were able to reduce the escalations because of the part because of the policy we were able to automate and then we on the on the owner side, we would send something 90 days out, hey, do you want to renew your release or not, right like, we didn't ask them what the amount was, we because we built the 2% and so we stopped doing CMAs. So it is a lot of grunt work that we can stop doing, which then allows your virtual team ever to actually do a lot more, we have one person for 1000, doors, doing lease renewals, and, and reviewing inspections.   Michael: one person for all 1000 doors…?   Pete: For lease renewals and inspections. Yeah…   Michael: Holy smokes.   Pete: But then I had one person that did all collections. So I'll kind of go through the whole thing, right. So like, you can have a virtual team member, their whole job literally could be making sure that your collections are being done, your notices are getting sent out and that they can if you have if you have a third party company like we did that handle the evictions, they can actually be the gatekeeper with that third with that third party company and do all that stuff. My property managers did nothing with evictions   Michael: What?   Pete: Yeah, yeah. So we again, we had policies in place, right. So if, if the resident owed less than 50%, we, we wouldn't file evictions, if they owed, you know, 50% or more, we'd file the eviction we like so we just put on a different policy. You teach the VA, what the policies are, and then they just follow the process and what's cool is they actually know the process better than you and they, hey, can I do this or this or this instead, and they tweak the process and you're like, yeah, that sounds so much better and then they own the process. So if you're like an investor listening to this, and you don't like magic companies, for whatever reason, by the way, obviously, I own a magic company, I highly recommend. But let's just say, let's just say that you don't like me had a bad experience, and you're gun shy. But what you're finding is your leases aren't being renewed, right? You're your maintenance is overtime, the phone rings you like, I don't want to deal with this. You hate when somebody moves out, because you want to deal with the turn, your books are a mess, because you don't have time to do the books because you're, you know, a high net worth individual working 70-80 hours a week as it is, then a VA could do all of that stuff for you. They can do everything, you got to train them, of course. So just step back, take two steps forward. But they can do your property accounting, they could be your QuickBooks, they could do your business accounting, they could do your maintenance coordination, they could do your turn coordination, they can do your collections or evictions. So they can do your utility turn on and turn offs, like so all that stuff that you like, oh my god, they could do your onboarding for you. So I was going to get a new property you got to enter all that stuff in the in the computer system. They can do all of that stuff for you.   Michael: If anyone's watching the video here, you see that my jaw is like on the floor. So for anyone listening I just want wanted to bring you up to speed. But okay, so peace on, let me just understand. So they could do, like they could do all of this stuff and literally anything I mean sky's the limit is and with regard to things that they can do other than the two things you mentioned the license act, and then anything that requires them to physically be there. But when it comes to accounting, I mean, one thing that I'm thinking about is, there's very sensitive information, there's banking information, there's pat, you know, credit card information, as part of the accounting process that I do personally. So am I going to need to divulge personal information and sensitive information to the VA or like, how does that work?   Pete: Yeah, so, you know, in most in most instances, like in your QuickBooks, and in any property management software, they have different levels of permissions and even in your banking, like I bank with Chase, and Chase has different levels of permissions. So I can give you all the rights to, to my, my, my VA team, right, which I did, I gave them all the rights, so they can see everything, they can reconcile the bank statements, they can, they can look at everything, they just couldn't make any payments, right, they couldn't make any transactions. So that's, that's what we did. Now, we also had two property accountants that they did probably accounts for our third party folks and so they had access to, you know, sensitive information. So what we did is we did a bet we did a thorough background screening, there's a third party company out there that can do background screening, and they came up, you know, pretty, they came out really good. So we went forward, and then we just had our cyber liability insurance policy just to make sure go again, because we're a property manager firm with over 1000 units that we manage. So we wanted to make sure that we you know, we took care of ourselves. But if you're an individual with a handful of properties, or a small property manager, then you can do all of this through the permissions that your banking and that your that your software allows you to do.   Michael: Okay and so as I'm hearing you, you talk about as a man, I'm getting really excited, I'm trying my the wheels are kind of turning on all of the things that I might be able to outsource. What are some things that you should definitely not have a VA do? I mean, have you seen some things go really sideways or go really south because someone said, oh, well, Pete said, they can only can't do these two things. So I'm gonna give my VA everything else. I mean, what should I be thinking about in terms of limitations?   Pete: Yeah, so I gotta be honest, you, Michael I, at first, I always thought like, okay, I'm just gonna give him a list of things to do. I'm going to scan it to him and we're going to just do this stuff off the list, like a checklist thing. I quickly realized he could do much more. Then I said, hey, I own the process and they own the process and they can and now I do believe that I actually had VA supervise people in the States. So I had somebody in Mexico supervising people in the United States. So I believe they can get to that that supervisory level, what I will say is, they can do everything. So I'm not saying they can't do anything. But the one thing is you need to put in place some escalation paths…   Michael: What do you mean?   Pete: So even though they own so let's say for example, they own maintenance, right? Well, they're going to be able to handle 99 out of 10 maintenance calls, no problem. But then there's that mold call that comes in, right where the resident says they have mold, well, right there, that should be a buzzword that gets escalated to the property manager because they don't like they don't have mold in other areas of the country of the world that were that worried about mold as much as much as we do in the US. So if there's like an emergency, that could that can cause you know, a resident can get sick, right, or anything like that we're property code. So each, each state has their own little different property code, right. So like, for example, in Texas, believe it or not heat, if they have no heat, that's, that's a, that's an emergency. But if they have if they don't have air non-emergency, well, we treat no AC as an emergency in our in our company we did and so there was like three or four things that those got escalated a property manager. Now the property manager, at that point would say, I'm going to take it from here, or here's what you should do. But then the property manager is kind of co-managing that ticket. So I believe that in any business that you run, whether you own a property management firm, or you're a you know, an individual landlord that manages your 10 units, there's got to be certain. I call them taps on the shoulder, there's got to be certain tabs that you realize this is a potential problem, right? So let me deal with it or I call them taps two by fours and then getting run over by a man, right? On over by a Mack truck means that you're in a lawsuit, right? The two by four means somebody moved out because you didn't handle a maintenance request in a certain way and the tap is the maintenance request is 10 days, 15 days old, whatever it is, and no one's looking at it. Right, so how can you run your business through tabs? Well, if you have these vas, the great thing is you're not doing the work anymore, right? You're not creating the lease renewal you're not you know, calling, you know roto rooter to get out to the property. You're not doing that but what you have to do is you have to take a step above, right so you have to instead of being at the ground level, you got to be 2000 feet up, right, not 15 30,000 feet up, but at least 2000 feet up and as report you have to review and so if you see a property that's vacant for over so many days, that's a tap, if you see a maintenance request that's open for so many days, or major quests that hasn't been responded to, in so many days, these are tabs. So if you can identify what the potential problems are, your job now becomes manager, right? So I'm not the doer anymore. So you're getting rid of the task or hat, you put it on your manager hat. So if you hire a VA for him to do everything, and then you don't put your manager hat on, I can tell you, you're gonna, you're gonna get in trouble. Especially if you, especially if you do terrible training, which most people do.   Michael: That was gonna be like my next question and so like, for everyone listening, what what's the expectation around training? How long is it before a VA is really up and running and so as people are thinking about, okay, forecasting, I don't need a VA today, but maybe in 369 12 months, I maybe need one. So what's the runway lead up time to get someone effective?   Pete: You're gonna hit the answer, but it depends.   Michael: That's my favorite answer.   Pete: It depends, okay, so the more like, even if I'm a smaller firm, and only got 20 properties, I'm managing, I'm doing everything, you have to teach that VA, every piece of managing that property, right, from onboarding, to, you know, to utilities, to lease ups to move into maintenance, to collections to eviction, to move out, and you have to teach them everything… Well, just because only one move out happens a month, it doesn't make anything any easier, you have to learn, they have to learn how to do that they have to understand basically, property management. So that's going to take a lot longer than say, like, with me, I had one person like all they do is collections. Well, I can teach collections in less than two weeks. Right, especially if you have processes in place. So the big thing depends. So if I wanted to hire somebody for collections, it'd be about two weeks. But if I want to hire someone to do maintenance, the more I call them, if they analysis, the more decision points there are in the job. In the process, the longer the training, right maintenance, so many things go could happen with lease renewals, it's like there's three things, like you teach them the three things, and then they know, okay, I do these three, if this happens, I do this and if this happens, property manager, right. So to my least your own person, it really was like two weeks of training. My maintenance people, it was about two months to three months of training.   Michael: Wow. Okay, so yeah, you weren't kidding. When you said it depends.   Pete: It depends, yeah.   Michael: And then I guess, like, the next question that comes to mind is, what is the turnover look like if I'm an investor, and I'm investing two months, three months into a person really getting them up to speed, and then doesn't work out or they don't like it or they move on, like, what have you seen in terms of turnover?   Pete: That's a great question as well. So what I saw at Empire, I had 23, virtual team members, 23 different roles that that my virtual team members handled, and I had them for about five years, you know, most of the jobs some jobs were newer, but I had people there for five years and in those five years, I had to get rid of I let go of two and one person left. So I had three people, my churn rate was much lower on the VA side of things than they were on the US side of things…   Michael: I was gonna ask… in the US:::   Pete: Now, I'll tell you why my churn rate was low, though, okay, because I treated these people like team members, not like virtual assistants, right? So the old mentality of a virtual assistant is, I'm just going to throw you here's the work, you go do the work, I'm going to make sure it's done and like, that's it right. My guys that we have day out there on our website, they had videos, they were they were part of all of our company meetings, they had, they had ownership of each of their job roles so that they can, they can modify and do things they had, they had more control over certain things. We went down, I went down there to go visit them, because most of my people were one city in Mexico, so I paid them PTO like I gave them like if they even though there were contractors, if they needed a day off Mike just put the time in, that's okay, I'm gonna give you a day. So we the more you treat people like we can we put them on a bonus structure. So if their key performance indicator was met, they got a pat on the back, but if they exceeded it, they got they got 50 bucks, or something small, but $50 to somebody in California that Michael they're going to take the $50 thing it's critical and throw in your face like this isn't even a gallon of gas. You know, and but in you know, Mexico you give somebody 50 bucks that's like a half a day's work, like so again, you so you can make people happier with a lot less with a lot less money, right? because sometimes it's like, oh, it's not the thought. It's like, wow, man, you only gave me $20 like that's like almost like an insult you know, in the US where it's not a over there. So if you treat the people, right, so what does that mean? It's not just like paying them and treating them, right, make it part of the team, but also manage them correctly. A lot of people think like, I'm just gonna hire this VA, but they have, like, they hire the VA and then you're, you're not ready for the VA, like, you hire them because you like you got excited, you heard this podcast, I'm gonna hire VA, right and then it's like, okay, you don't have a good job description, you're not really sure what they should do, you don't know how to manage if they're doing a good job or not and so you hire somebody, and they don't really know what to do, and then you don't know what to do and then it doesn't work out, right. So I recommend anybody do is make sure like you, you create a job description first. So you can go about it two ways:   One is I want them to take this, this process from end to end or two is like I want to be an executive assistant and I want to do the things that I hate doing. So identify the low level low enjoyment tasks that you don't like, create a job description from that, post it out there, say this is what I'm looking for or say, man, I really want to give somebody collections evictions, you know, like that process? So it depends if you're if you're smaller than you may say, hey, I want them to be a property manager and give me all the things I have to do just understand it's a lot more training. So once you have the once you have the job description, so that you know what they should do they know what they should do. The next thing is what are the key indicators that you know they're doing a good job and the rule of thumb is 123 key indicators they call key performance indicators and every job role in the organization should have at least one if somebody has 14, that's way too many, I know because I live this I had my property manager API's and it's not it was way, way too much. So like, for example, your executive assistant. If that's where they are, you know, maybe they have to answer calls, well, maybe a KPI is answering 94% plus call rate, right or response to any email is in less than one day. Now, you the KPIs, you can pull them out of a hat, but they have you have to have a report that can show that, that they can put the KPI and so they have to get the data, the data has to be available, right? So if I say hey, I want a 90% call rate, but my call, my call software doesn't have call answer rate, I'm not gonna be able to get that number. Does that make sense?   Michael: It makes total sense.   Pete: And so you have to be able to report on it. So just because you want a KPI, but there's no way to report on it, then you have to figure out a way to report it and get that KPI. If not, you have to move to a different KPI. So if I have the job description set up, they know what to do that we have the key indicators, so they know what the scorecard is if they're doing a good job or not, and so to you, because so many of you will say, yeah, I feel like that he's not doing a good job. What the hell is that me show you?   Michael: How do you know?   Pete: Especially if they're, you know, 20,000 miles away for you in the Philippines? Like, yeah, like, so how do you know the key indicators and then if you have good training, and you spend the time with them, and then you should once you have the train, So training is like every day, right? You do every day for two weeks, maybe three weeks, you have training every day, hour a day video so they can rewatch it and they can build, they build the process manual, not us. So they build a process manual. Why is that important because if I had 100 page process manual for maintenance, I did Michael I swear at Empire had 110 page process manual…   Michael: We talk in single space, or double space?   Pete: Single space, I think. Like legit, it was legit. Nobody read it. Nobody knew how to navigate it and nobody learned once I had them build their own manuals, guess what happened, they started retaining stuff and they knew how to navigate their manual. So don't be don't be upset if they like let them create their own manual so they can navigate it. So now you know what they what you want them to do. They know what they know what they're supposed to do. You can you can you can scorecard it with the metrics, you train them, and now you manage them and the way you do that is you have a weekly meeting. Now if you're smaller, you're going to have you're going to meet with them every day, right my IV pm or smaller firm was five of us, I mean, when my VAs every day, because we're just we're so small, we have to talk about what to talk every day when I was at Empire because I have 40 people working for me. I met them once a week and I would meet my maintenance team, separate from my accounting team separate from my resident services teams and for my own services team. But I would go over with them each week and we'd go over, we'd say what's a feel good? Tell me something that's good, right because as humans, we have this habit of going below the line instead of like above the line. So let's start off the meeting really good. Let's go over to metrics, right individual and then the group metrics, the department metrics, then let's go over tasks from last week did they get done? Then let's go over challenges and each one of those a five minutes and challenges like 20 minutes, 25 minutes. You don't you can't solve all them all the time. But you can solve you know, a couple of them and if you could solve a couple of challenges each week, you're doing really, really good and then and then one thing I added was what's your stress level from zero to 10. This was interesting because sometimes they'd be at a 10 and it was because somebody was on vacation or we just got 50 new houses that week, it's worth, you know, 10 yeah, okay. But when it's 10 all the time, and that's the standard, that means you haven't to do too much and if somebody's attend all the time, it means they're ready to punch out. Like anybody in your team, you should literally take the pulse of your team on a weekly or monthly basis, right and but here's sometimes the 10 was because they had something going on personally and then I'd get everybody off the off the phone, and then I would talk to them personally and that gives you an incredible opportunity to create relationships with people who you never met, that working with you that are, you know, 5-10 1000 miles away and that is why they didn't leave me because they knew I cared, right, it wasn't a bonus. It was it was I cared, I want them to grow the company, I want them to, you know, to, to feel like they're wanted, but I also cared about their personal lives, I really did and so if somebody had an issue, you know, Hey, man, you know, we talk about so you get to learn a lot about people when you do that. But I did that each week and if a KPI was read two weeks in a row, and went to the issues list, you know, things and so you, if you have a structure with your business, you're the person you hire, the chances at whether that's in the US, like sitting next to you in the US, that's, you know, a few states away, that's working virtually, or a virtual team member outside the borders of the US. If you have structure, the chances of you hiring somebody successfully becomes great becomes very, you know, most cause much greater. But if you don't have that structure, the chances of hiring anybody is not going to be it's not going to be very, very, very good. It's going to be much lower rate of success.   Michael: Yeah. That makes a ton of sense. Pete, have you ever had a VA hire and train another like another VA?   Pete: Oh, yeah, of course. That's the whole job, right? The whole goal, right? So monkey see monkey do, right? So when I forget Empire, the first round of vas, you're looking at the trainer. I was the guy I trained there. Okay but my maintenance team, once somebody would leave, and somebody would get hired, or they would hire a new person, I was out at a training business.   Michael: I love it.   Pete: They train them. So once you train that first batch, and by the way, here, Michael, here's the secret to at Empire, I was gonna hire two virtual team members. That was that's what was in the budget. I interviewed four people hired all four of them and here's the reason why one figure one person is going to wash out right? Can you figure that and then the second thing is, it's, I was hiring two to three people for one person United States.   Michael: Okay.   Pete: All right. So think about that hourly rate, I would get rid of one person us and I'd hire three people in Mexico and so do you think more stuff gets done with three people?   Michael: I would than one probably guessed.   Pete: So. Yeah. So then I'm like, okay, I'm gonna hire four people. So I was over budget, guess what happened within 30 days, I'm able to grow my business because more tasks are being done and so all of a sudden, it's like, yeah, and if one but I hired four, none of them washed out, I was one of them wasn't a good fit, they were a good fit for the organization, not a good fit for the role. So we moved on to a different role. So another important thing is when you hire and this is probably I mean, your team, your, your listeners probably know this. But every business has core values, that can be a sheet on the wall that you never look at, and they're not going to be any, they're not going to be worth anything for you. But you should have core values that you hire, fire, promote and demote on, and give raises to like, that's your core value. So who are the people you want on the bus with you, right and if you are, if you are an individual landlord, that you know has a bunch of house and you're looking to hire that first person. Well, that's a business, right Michael, would you teach that like, as soon as you're hired, as soon as you buy that first house, you are business…   Michael: Yeah, you are business…   Pete: You are business. So you need to have core values and if you don't, as a business, you should have them as an individual. So who are the people I called the fog. So who do people want to foxhole with you? That gets you the right person in the organization. But that doesn't mean they're the right person in the right seat, right because the right see, for example, like, if somebody's super outgoing, you want them in sales, if they're super outgoing, but not detail. You don't want them in accounting, right? I might have the right person. But if I put that outgoing person, and that's shipping and sales and accounting, he's going to do a terrible job. So I found the people through my core values, I then put them through a personality profile test. I like disk. It's super simple. I don't know what you would use. Do you have one that you use?   Michael: No, not personally, but I'm definitely going to be adopting one as I'm gonna get for virtual assistant, yeah…   Pete: There's, there's a lot of them out there. Disk is super easy. I know it very well. It's easy to learn. So I use disk. So that tells me I get the right person in the organization. I put them in the right seat and through my job description and my key performance indicators. I know they're going in the right direction. So if you do all of that, and then you do the training and then you do the managing the chances of you having somebody washed out or somebody leave, it goes down dramatically. It's not 100%. It's never 100.   Michel: Like anything… Yeah, that makes a ton of sense to me, Pete this has been, this has been super eye opening, really exciting, exciting stuff for people that want to learn more want to take advantage of the cam solutions, like how do they get in touch with you? Where should they be going?   Pete: Yeah, so you can go to https://www.vpmsolutions.com/ , and create a free profile. So that's the other thing, Michael, everything on the company side is free. So creating a profile posting a job, searching for people, finding them is all free. When you thought when you hire somebody, they we charge the virtual team member a percentage, and that's how we make our money. So, it's free to the company. So all you're paying is the hourly rate, and a small processing fee that we pass on from the stripes of the world onto the onto the dude the company, but that's what it should go and if you want to email me directly, it's pete@vpmolutions.com and we have over 14,000 virtual team members in 60 countries on our on our site right now looking for work and we have property management video training that your listeners can actually take for free as well. So we have like, I think we have like 12 courses, it's over about nine hours of content it goes from, it's basically the lifecycle of property management. So if you are a, you know, a self-manager, and you want to learn more about how I can manage my property a little bit more efficiently, I highly recommend taking those courses and then when you post the job, you can actually ask your VA, these are the recommended courses that we recommend that you take and then people would actually take those courses on their time and they're done. So you're getting a little bit of people trained before you actually are paying them.   Michael: That's really slick and it probably helps weed out a little bit more of who's serious versus who's not is who's gonna put in the time in advance.   Pete: Absolutely, 100%...   Michael: Oh, man, I love it. Pete This has been so great. Thank you for coming on with us a second time. Definitely, we'll be in touch man.   Pete: Yeah, Michael, thank you so much for having me. Really appreciate it.   Michael: You got it, take care. All right, everyone. That was our episode a big thank you to Pete for coming on. Super exciting. If you couldn't tell it was pretty giddy throughout the episode. It's something that I'm going to be very much looking into for my personal business. As always, if you enjoyed the episode, we love hearing from you reviews, comments, feedback questions are always welcome in the comment section, and we look forward to seeing on the next one. Happy investing…

Technology is paramount when it comes to securing our nation according to Pete Tseronis, CEO of Dots and Bridges, former CTO of the US Department of Energy and US Department of Education. On this episode of Tech Transforms, Pete explains the critical role technology plays in our lives, and how innovation underpins that foundation. Episode Table of Contents[00:38] Pete Tseronis: From Fed to Dots and Bridges [05:50] Why It Matters To Translate the Tech [12:22] Who Are Keeping the Lights On [22:00] How Pete Tseronis Responds to the Mission [29:33] Information at Your Fingertips Episode Links and Resources Pete Tseronis: From Fed to Dots and BridgesCarolyn: Our guest today has got quite the pedigree, https://www.linkedin.com/in/ptseronis/ (Pete Tseronis), CEO of Dots and Bridges. Before Dots and Bridges, Pete served as a Cabinet-level federal CTO, not once, but twice. First at the US Department of Education for eight years, and then at the US Department of Energy for seven and a half years. Before those two, he was actually with the DoD since the beginning of things. Pete: It's nice to be on the other side of the mic. I have all the respect in the world for what you're doing, in addition to your other jobs and incredible pedigree you have. But I love the conversations and it's a treat to be able to tell my story a little bit, at least. Carolyn: Your unique perspective on technology and federal agencies, as well as from the commercial side, it's going to be a great conversation. Let's just start with your story. Will you give us an overview of Dots and Bridges and how it came about? Then share your journey in the government and where you are now. Pete: I tell folks I can do five hours or I can do it in about a minute. But there's about 32 years there, wrapped up. I'm a Washingtonian native. I grew up in the Washington DC area, in the suburbs of Maryland, Montgomery County and went to high school in Washington DC. It took me to Villanova University for my undergrad, where I studied liberal arts and communications. I wanted to be a sports broadcaster. Pete Tseronis Had the Coolest Job in the WorldPete: I'm 54, and I do have a nine-year-old. So a little bit of a late bloomer. Four kids, a great wife from Pittsburgh, and yes, I have an Australian Labradoodle named Phineas Maximus Tseronis. So that is my life, my family. I came out of college, I ended up back here in DC, and interned at the Pentagon. One day, I woke up and I'm working in the Pentagon. I thought it was the coolest thing in the world. Didn't have a plan to work for the government. I didn't know much about it, even though it was in my backyard. But it put me on my journey. The time was '91. I had the chance, when I was working as a civilian, the Department of the Army, to dabble in some of the work that the DARPA community was working on. The internet work was what it was called. Before I knew it, I had a bug, an itch that I scratched. And I was like, "This is going to be a big deal." I was that guy typing in on a text-based, character-based, if you will, screen: www.espn.com. I'm like, "Whoa, I can see all this news before it's in the paper tomorrow." The itch was there. I said, "I'm going to go learn this internet thing." At that point, it was three years at DoD. I had a chance to move over to the Department of Education and do some computer security work. That was becoming a thing, like if you're going to use this tool, security matters. So we'll talk a little bit about that today and its evolution, but I jumped back to school. Pete Tseronis Got the Coolest Education for Three YearsPete: I enrolled at Johns Hopkins University and got my master's degree in telecommunications. I've wanted to know how this worked. How do you type something in and then it's there on your screen? That was the coolest education for three years. Every time I'd go back to class, it was like the material we learned was outdated. For three years it was like all of us were...

About PetePete does many startup things at Allma. Links: Last Tweet in AWS: https://lasttweetinaws.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/petecheslock LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petecheslock/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part byLaunchDarkly. Take a look at what it takes to get your code into production. I'm going to just guess that it's awful because it's always awful. No one loves their deployment process. What if launching new features didn't require you to do a full-on code and possibly infrastructure deploy? What if you could test on a small subset of users and then roll it back immediately if results aren't what you expect? LaunchDarkly does exactly this. To learn more, visitlaunchdarkly.com and tell them Corey sent you, and watch for the wince.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Redis, the company behind the incredibly popular open source database that is not the bind DNS server. If you're tired of managing open source Redis on your own, or you're using one of the vanilla cloud caching services, these folks have you covered with the go to manage Redis service for global caching and primary database capabilities; Redis Enterprise. To learn more and deploy not only a cache but a single operational data platform for one Redis experience, visit redis.com/hero. Thats r-e-d-i-s.com/hero. And my thanks to my friends at Redis for sponsoring my ridiculous non-sense.  Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. I am joined—as is tradition, for a post re:Invent wrap up, a month or so later, once everything is time to settle—by my friend and yours, Pete Cheslock. Pete, how are you?Pete: Hi, I'm doing fantastic. New year; new me. That's what I'm going with.Corey: That's the problem. I keep hoping for that, but every time I turn around, it's still me. And you know, honestly, I wouldn't wish that on anyone.Pete: Exactly. [laugh]. I wouldn't wish you on me either. But somehow I keep coming back for this.Corey: So, in two-thousand twenty—or twenty-twenty, as the children say—re:Invent was fully virtual. And that felt weird. Then re:Invent 2021 was a hybrid event which, let's be serious here, is not really those things. They had a crappy online thing and then a differently crappy thing in person. But it didn't feel real to me because you weren't there.That is part of the re:Invent tradition. There's a midnight madness thing, there's a keynote where they announce a bunch of nonsense, and then Pete and I go and have brunch on the last day of re:Invent and decompress, and more or less talk smack about everything that crosses our minds. And you weren't there this year. I had to backfill you with Tim Banks. You know, the person that I backfield you with here at The Duckbill Group as a principal cloud economist.Pete: You know, you got a great upgrade in hot takes, I feel like, with Tim.Corey: And other ways, too, but it's rude of me to say that to you directly. So yeah, his hot takes are spectacular. He was going to be doing this with me, except you cannot mess with tradition. You really can't.Pete: Yeah. I'm trying to think how many—is this third year? It's at least three.Corey: Third or fourth.Pete: Yeah, it's at least three. Yeah, it was, I don't want to say I was sad to not be there because, with everything going on, it's still weird out there. But I am always—I'm just that weird person who actually likes re:Invent, but not for I feel like the reasons people think. Again, I'm such an extroverted-type person, that it's so great to have this, like, serendipity to re:Invent. The people that you run into and the conversations that you have, and prior—like in 2019, I think was a great example because that was the last one I had gone to—you know, having so many conversations so quickly because everyone is there, right? It's like this magnet that attracts technologists, and venture capital, and product builders, and all this other stuff. And it's all compressed into, like, you know, that five-day span, I think is the biggest part that makes so great.Corey: The fear in people's eyes when they see me. And it was fun; I had a pair of masks with me. One of them was a standard mask, and no one recognizes anyone because, masks, and the other was a printout of my ridiculous face, which was horrifyingly uncanny, but also made it very easy for people to identify me. And depending upon how social I was feeling, I would wear one or the other, and it worked flawlessly. That was worth doing. They really managed to thread the needle, as well, before Omicron hit, but after the horrors of last year. So, [unintelligible 00:03:00]—Pete: It really—Corey: —if it were going on right now, it would not be going on right now.Pete: Yeah. I talk about really—yeah—really just hitting it timing-wise. Like, not that they could have planned for any of this, but like, as things were kind of not too crazy and before they got all crazy again, it feels like wow, like, you know, they really couldn't have done the event at any other time. And it's like, purely due to luck. I mean, absolute one hundred percent.Corey: That's the amazing power of frugality. Because the reason is then is it's the week after Thanksgiving every year when everything is dirt cheap. And, you know, if there's one thing that I one-point-seve—sorry, their stock's in the toilet—a $1.6 trillion company is very concerned about, it is saving money at every opportunity.Pete: Well, the one thing that was most curious about—so I was at the first re:Invent in-what—2012 I think it was, and there was—it was quaint, right?—there was 4000 people there, I want to say. It was in the thousands of people. Now granted, still a big conference, but it was in the Sands Convention Center. It was in that giant room, the same number of people, were you know, people's booths were like tables, like, eight-by-ten tables, right? [laugh].It had almost a DevOpsDays feel to it. And I was kind of curious if this one had any of those feelings. Like, did it evoke it being more quaint and personable, or was it just as soulless as it probably has been in recent years?Corey: This was fairly soulless because they reduced the footprint of the event. They dropped from two expo halls down to one, they cut the number of venues, but they still had what felt like 20,000 people or something there. It was still crowded, it was still packed. And I've done some diligent follow-ups afterwards, and there have been very few cases of Covid that came out of it. I quarantined for a week in a hotel, so I don't come back and kill my young kids for the wrong reasons.And that went—that was sort of like the worst part of it on some level, where it's like great. Now I could sit alone at a hotel and do some catch-up and all the rest, but all right I'd kind of like to go home. I'm not used to being on the road that much.Pete: Yeah, I think we're all a little bit out of practice. You know, I haven't been on a plane in years. I mean, the travel I've done more recently has been in my car from point A to point B. Like, direct, you know, thing. Actually, a good friend of mine who's not in technology at all had to travel for business, and, you know, he also has young kids who are under five, so he when he got back, he actually hid in a room in their house and quarantine himself in the room. But they—I thought, this is kind of funny—they never told the kids he was home. Because they knew that like—Corey: So, they just thought the house was haunted?Pete: [laugh].Corey: Like, “Don't go in the west wing,” sort of level of nonsense. That is kind of amazing.Pete: Honestly, like, we were hanging out with the family because they're our neighbors. And it was like, “Oh, yeah, like, he's in the guest room right now.” Kids have no idea. [laugh]. I'm like, “Oh, my God.” I'm like, I can't even imagine. Yeah.Corey: So, let's talk a little bit about the releases of re:Invent. And I'm going to lead up with something that may seem uncharitable, but I don't think it necessarily is. There weren't the usual torrent of new releases for ridiculous nonsense in the same way that there have been previously. There was no, this service talks to satellites in space. I mean, sure, there was some IoT stuff to manage fleets of cars, and giant piles of robots, and cool, I don't have those particular problems; I'm trying to run a website over here.So okay, great. There were enhancements to a number of different services that were in many cases appreciated, in other cases, irrelevant. Werner said in his keynote, that it was about focusing on primitives this year. And, “Why do we have so many services? It's because you asked for it… as customers.”Pete: [laugh]. Yeah, you asked for it.Corey: What have you been asking for, Pete? Because I know what I've been asking for and it wasn't that. [laugh].Pete: It's amazing to see a company continually say yes to everything, and somehow, despite their best efforts, be successful at doing it. No other company could do that. Imagine any other software technology business out there that just builds everything the customers ask for. Like from a product management business standpoint, that is, like, rule 101 is, “Listen to your customers, but don't say yes to everything.” Like, you can't do everything.Corey: Most companies can't navigate the transition between offering the same software in the Cloud and on a customer facility. So, it's like, “Ooh, an on-prem version, I don't know, that almost broke the company the last time we tried it.” Whereas you have Amazon whose product strategy is, “Yes,” being able to put together a whole bunch of things. I also will challenge the assertion that it's the primitives that customers want. They don't want to build a data center out of popsicle sticks themselves. They want to get something that solves a problem.And this has been a long-term realization for me. I used to work at Media Temple as a senior systems engineer running WordPress at extremely large scale. My websites now run on WordPress, and I have the good sense to pay WP Engine to handle it for me, instead of doing it myself because it's not the most productive use of my time. I want things higher up the stack. I assure you I pay more to WP Engine than it would cost me to run these things myself from an infrastructure point of view, but not in terms of my time.What I see sometimes as the worst of all worlds is that AWS is trying to charge for that value-added pricing without adding the value that goes along with it because you still got to build a lot of this stuff yourself. It's still a very janky experience, you're reduced to googling random blog posts to figure out how this thing is supposed to work, and the best documentation comes from externally. Whereas with a company that's built around offering solutions like this, great. In the fullness of time, I really suspect that if this doesn't change, their customers are going to just be those people who build solutions out of these things. And let those companies capture the up-the-stack margin. Which I have no problem with. But they do because Amazon is a company that lies awake at night actively worrying that someone, somewhere, who isn't them might possibly be making money somehow.Pete: I think MongoDB is a perfect example of—like, look at their stock price over the last whatever, years. Like, they, I feel like everyone called for the death of MongoDB every time Amazon came out with their new things, yet, they're still a multi-billion dollar company because I can just—give me an API endpoint and you scale the database. There's is—Corey: Look at all the high-profile hires that Mongo was making out of AWS, and I can't shake the feeling they're sitting there going, “Yeah, who's losing important things out of production now?” It's, everyone is exodus-ing there. I did one of those ridiculous graphics of the naming all the people that went over there, and in—with the hurricane evacuation traffic picture, and there's one car going the other way that I just labeled with, “Re:Invent sponsorship check,” because yeah, they have a top tier sponsorship and it was great. I've got to say I've been pretty down on MongoDB for a while, for a variety of excellent reasons based upon, more or less, how they treated customers who were in pain. And I'd mostly written it off.I don't do that anymore. Not because I inherently believe the technology has changed, though I'm told it has, but by the number of people who I deeply respect who are going over there and telling me, no, no, this is good. Congratulations. I have often said you cannot buy authenticity, and I don't think that they are, but the people who are working there, I do not believe that these people are, “Yeah, well, you bought my opinion. You can buy their attention, not their opinion.” If someone changes their opinion, based upon where they work, I kind of question everything they're telling me is, like, “Oh, you're just here to sell something you don't believe in? Welcome aboard.”Pete: Right. Yeah, there's an interview question I like to ask, which is, “What's something that you used to believe in very strongly that you've more recently changed your mind on?” And out of politeness because usually throws people back a little bit, and they're like, “Oh, wow. Like, let me think about that.” And I'm like, “Okay, while you think about that I want to give you mine.”Which is in the past, my strongly held belief was we had to run everything ourselves. “You own your availability,” was the line. “No, I'm not buying Datadog. I can build my own metric stack just fine, thank you very much.” Like, “No, I'm not going to use these outsourced load balancers or databases because I need to own my availability.”And what I realized is that all of those decisions lead to actually delivering and focusing on things that were not the core product. And so now, like, I've really flipped 180, that, if any—anything that you're building that does not directly relate to the core product, i.e. How your business makes money, should one hundred percent be outsourced to an expert that is better than you. Mongo knows how to run Mongo better than you.Corey: “What does your company do?” “Oh, we handle expense reports.” “Oh, what are you working on this month?” “I'm building a load balancer.” It's like that doesn't add the value. Don't do that.Pete: Right. Exactly. And so it's so interesting, I think, to hear Werner say that, you know, we're just building primitives, and you asked for this. And I think that concept maybe would work years ago, when you had a lot of builders who needed tools, but I don't think we have any, like, we don't have as many builders as before. Like, I think we have people who need more complete solutions. And that's probably why all these businesses are being super successful against Amazon.Corey: I'm wondering if it comes down to a cloud economic story, specifically that my cloud bill is always going to be variable and it's difficult to predict, whereas if I just use EC2 instances, and I build load balancers or whatnot, myself, well, yeah, it's a lot more work, but I can predict accurately what my staff compensation costs are more effectively, that I can predict what a CapEx charge would be or what the AWS bill is going to be. I'm wondering if that might in some way shape it?Pete: Well, I feel like the how people get better in managing their costs, right, you'll eventually move to a world where, like, “Yep, okay, first, we turned off waste,” right? Like, step one is waste. Step two is, like, understanding your spend better to optimize but, like, step three, like, the galaxy brain meme of Amazon cost stuff is all, like, unit economics stuff, where trying to better understand the actual cost deliver an actual feature. And yeah, I think that actually gets really hard when you give—kind of spread your product across, like, a slew of services that have varying levels of costs, varying levels of tagging, so you can attribute it. Like, it's really hard. Honestly, it's pretty easy if I have 1000 EC2 servers with very specific tags, I can very easily figure out what it costs to deliver product. But if I have—Corey: Yeah, if I have Corey build it, I know what Corey is going to cost, and I know how many servers he's going to use. Great, if I have Pete it, Pete's good at things, it'll cut that server bill in half because he actually knows how to wind up being efficient with things. Okay, great. You can start calculating things out that way. I don't think that's an intentional choice that companies are making, but I feel like that might be a natural outgrowth of it.Pete: Yeah. And there's still I think a lot of the, like, old school mentality of, like, the, “Not invented here,” the, “We have to own our availability.” You can still own your availability by using these other vendors. And honestly, it's really heartening to see so many companies realize that and realize that I don't need to get everything from Amazon. And honestly, like, in some things, like I look at a cloud Amazon bill, and I think to myself, it would be easier if you just did everything from Amazon versus having these ten other vendors, but those ten other vendors are going to be a lot better at running the product that they build, right, that as a service, then you probably will be running it yourself. Or even Amazon's, like, you know, interpretation of that product.Corey: A few other things that came out that I thought were interesting, at least the direction they're going in. The changes to S3 intelligent tiering are great, with instant retrieval on Glacier. I feel like that honestly was—they talk a good story, but I feel like that was competitive response to Google offering the same thing. That smacks of a large company with its use case saying, “You got two choices here.” And they're like, “Well, okay. Crap. We're going to build it then.”Or alternately, they're looking at the changes that they're making to intelligent tiering, they're now shifting that to being the default that as far as recommendations go. There are a couple of drawbacks to it, but not many, and it's getting easier now to not have the mental overhead of trying to figure out exactly what your lifecycle policies are. Yeah, there are some corner cases where, okay, if I adjust this just so, then I could save 10% on that monitoring fee or whatnot. Yeah, but look how much work that's going to take you to curate and make sure that you're not doing something silly. That feels like it is such an in the margins issue. It's like, “How much data you're storing?” “Four exabytes.” Okay, yeah. You probably want some people doing exactly that, but that's not most of us.Pete: Right. Well, there's absolutely savings to be had. Like, if I had an exabyte of data on S3—which there are a lot of people who have that level of data—then it would make sense for me to have an engineering team whose sole purpose is purely an optimizing our data lifecycle for that data. Until a point, right? Until you've optimized the 80%, basically. You optimize the first 80, that's probably, air-quote, “Easy.” The last 20 is going to be incredibly hard, maybe you never even do that.But at lower levels of scale, I don't think the economics actually work out to have a team managing your data lifecycle of S3. But the fact that now AWS can largely do it for you in the background—now, there's so many things you have to think about and, like, you know, understand even what your data is there because, like, not all data is the same. And since S3 is basically like a big giant database you can query, you got to really think about some of that stuff. But honestly, what I—I don't know if—I have no idea if this is even be worked on, but what I would love to see—you know, hashtag #AWSwishlist—is, now we have countless tiers of EBS volumes, EBS volumes that can be dynamically modified without touching, you know, the physical host. Meaning with an API call, you can change from the gp2 to gp3, or io whatever, right?Corey: Or back again if it doesn't pan out.Pete: Or back again, right? And so for companies with large amounts of spend, you know, economics makes sense that you should have a team that is analyzing your volumes usage and modifying that daily, right? Like, you could modify that daily, and I don't know if there's anyone out there that's actually doing it at that level. And they probably should. Like, if you got millions of dollars in EBS, like, there's legit savings that you're probably leaving on the table without doing that. But that's what I'm waiting for Amazon to do for me, right? I want intelligent tiering for EBS because if you're telling me I can API call and you'll move my data and make that better, make that [crosstalk 00:17:46] better [crosstalk 00:17:47]—Corey: Yeah it could be like their auto-scaling for DynamoDB, for example. Gives you the capacity you need 20 minutes after you needed it. But fine, whatever because if I can schedule stuff like that, great, I know what time of day, the runs are going to kick off that beat up the disks. I know when end-of-month reporting fires off. I know what my usage pattern is going to be, by and large.Yeah, part of the problem too, is that I look at this stuff, and I get excited about it with the intelligent tiering… at The Duckbill Group we've got a few hundred S3 buckets lurking around. I'm thinking, “All right, I've got to go through and do some changes on this and implement all of that.” Our S3 bill's something like 50 bucks a month or something ridiculous like that. It's a no, that really isn't a thing. Like, I have a screenshot bucket that I have an app installed—I think called Dropshare—that hooks up to anytime I drag—I hit a shortcut, I drag with the mouse to select whatever I want and boom, it's up there and the URL is not copied to my clipboard, I can paste that wherever I want.And I'm thinking like, yeah, there's no cleanup on that. There's no lifecycle policy that's turning into anything. I should really go back and age some of it out and do the rest and start doing some lifecycle management. It—I've been using this thing for years and I think it's now a whopping, what, 20 cents a month for that bucket. It's—I just don't—Pete: [laugh].Corey: —I just don't care, other than voice in the back of my mind, “That's an unbounded growth problem.” Cool. When it hits 20 bucks a month, then I'll consider it. But until then I just don't. It does not matter.Pete: Yeah, I think yeah, scale changes everything. Start adding some zeros and percentages turned into meaningful numbers. And honestly, back on the EBS thing, the one thing that really changed my perspective of EBS, in general, is—especially coming from the early days, right? One terabyte volume, it was a hard drive in a thing. It was a virtual LUN on a SAN somewhere, probably.Nowadays, and even, like, many years after those original EBS volumes, like all the limits you get in EBS, those are actually artificial limits, right? If you're like, “My EBS volume is too slow,” it's not because, like, the hard drive it's on is too slow. That's an artificial limit that is likely put in place due to your volume choice. And so, like, once you realize that in your head, then your concept of how you store data on EBS should change dramatically.Corey: Oh, AWS had a blog post recently talking about, like, with io2 and the limits and everything, and there was architecture thinking, okay. “So, let's say this is insufficient and the quarter-million IOPS a second that you're able to get is not there.” And I'm sitting there thinking, “That is just ludicrous data volume and data interactivity model.” And it's one of those, like, I'm sitting here trying to think about, like, I haven't had to deal with a problem like that decade, just because it's, “Huh. Turns out getting these one thing that's super fast is kind of expensive.” If you paralyze it out, that's usually the right answer, and that's how the internet is mostly evolved. But there are use cases for which that doesn't work, and I'm excited to see it. I don't want to pay for it in my view, but it's nice to see it.Pete: Yeah, it's kind of fun to go into the Amazon calculator and price out one of the, like, io2 volumes and, like, maxed out. It's like, I don't know, like $50,000 a month or a hun—like, it's some just absolutely absurd number. But the beauty of it is that if you needed that value for an hour to run some intensive data processing task, you can have it for an hour and then just kill it when you're done, right? Like, that is what is most impressive.Corey: I copied 130 gigs of data to an EFS volume, which was—[unintelligible 00:21:05] EFS has gone from “This is a piece of junk,” to one of my favorite services. It really is, just because of its utility and different ways of doing things. I didn't have the foresight, just use a second EFS volume for this. So, I was unzipping a whole bunch of small files onto it. Great.It took a long time for me to go through it. All right, now that I'm done with that I want to clean all this up. My answer was to ultimately spin up a compute node and wind up running a whole bunch of—like, 400, simultaneous rm-rf on that long thing. And it was just, like, this feels foolish and dumb, but here we are. And I'm looking at the stats on it because the instance was—all right, at that point, the load average [on the instance 00:21:41] was like 200, or something like that, and the EFS volume was like, “Ohh, wow, you're really churning on this. I'm now at, like, 5% of the limit.” Like, okay, great. It turns out I'm really bad at computers.Pete: Yeah, well, that's really the trick is, like, yeah, sure, you can have a quarter-million IOPS per second, but, like, what's going to break before you even hit that limit? Probably many other things.Corey: Oh, yeah. Like, feels like on some level if something gets to that point, it a misconfiguration somewhere. But honestly, that's the thing I find weirdest about the world in which we live is that at a small-scale—if I have a bill in my $5 a month shitposting account, great. If I screw something up and cost myself a couple hundred bucks in misconfiguration it's going to stand out. At large scale, it doesn't matter if—you're spending $50 million a year or $500 million a year on AWS and someone leaks your creds, and someone spins up a whole bunch of Bitcoin miners somewhere else, you're going to see that on your bill until they're mining basically all the Bitcoin. It just gets lost in the background.Pete: I'm waiting for those—I'm actually waiting for the next level of them to get smarter because maybe you have, like, an aggressive tagging system and you're monitoring for untagged instances, but the move here would be, first get the creds and query for, like, the most used tags and start applying those tags to your Bitcoin mining instances. My God, it'll take—Corey: Just clone a bunch of tags. Congratulations, you now have a second BI Elasticsearch cluster that you're running yourself. Good work.Pete: Yeah. Yeah, that people won't find that until someone comes along after the fact that. Like, “Why do we have two have these things?” And you're like—[laugh].Corey: “Must be a DR thing.”Pete: It's maxed-out CPU. Yeah, exactly.Corey: [laugh].Pete: Oh, the terrible ideas—please, please, hackers don't take are terrible ideas.Corey: I had a, kind of, whole thing I did on Twitter years ago, talking about how I would wind up using the AWS Marketplace for an embezzlement scheme. Namely, I would just wind up spinning up something that had, like, a five-cent an hour charge or whatnot on just, like, basically rebadge the CentOS Community AMI or whatnot. Great. And then write a blog post, not attached to me, that explains how to do a thing that I'm going to be doing in production in a week or two anyway. Like, “How to build an auto-scaling group,” and reference that AMI.Then if it ever comes out, like, “Wow, why are we having all these marketplace charges on this?” “I just followed the blog post like it said here.” And it's like, “Oh, okay. You're a dumbass. The end.”That's the way to do it. A month goes by and suddenly it came out that someone had done something similarly. They wound up rebadging these community things on the marketplace and charging big money for it, and I'm sitting there going like that was a joke. It wasn't a how-to. But yeah, every time I make these jokes, I worry someone's going to do it.Pete: “Welcome to large-scale fraud with Corey Quinn.”Corey: Oh, yeah, it's fraud at scale is really the important thing here.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle HeatWave is a new high-performance accelerator for the Oracle MySQL Database Service. Although I insist on calling it “my squirrel.” While MySQL has long been the worlds most popular open source database, shifting from transacting to analytics required way too much overhead and, ya know, work. With HeatWave you can run your OLTP and OLAP, don't ask me to ever say those acronyms again, workloads directly from your MySQL database and eliminate the time consuming data movement and integration work, while also performing 1100X faster than Amazon Aurora, and 2.5X faster than Amazon Redshift, at a third of the cost. My thanks again to Oracle Cloud for sponsoring this ridiculous nonsense.Corey: I still remember a year ago now at re:Invent 2021 was it, or was it 2020? Whatever they came out with, I want to say it wasn't gp3, or maybe it was, regardless, there was a new EBS volume type that came out that you were playing with to see how it worked and you experimented with it—Pete: Oh, yes.Corey: —and the next morning, you looked at the—I checked Slack and you're like well, my experiments yesterday cost us $5,000. And at first, like, the—my response is instructive on this because, first, it was, “Oh, my God. What's going to happen now?” And it's like, first, hang on a second.First off, that seems suspect but assume it's real. I assumed it was real at the outset. It's “Oh, right. This is not my personal $5-a-month toybox account. We are a company; we can absolutely pay that.” Because it's like, I could absolutely reach out, call it a favor. “I made a mistake, and I need a favor on the bill, please,” to AWS.And I would never live it down, let's be clear. For a $7,000 mistake, I would almost certainly eat it. As opposed to having to prostrate myself like that in front of Amazon. I'm like, no, no, no. I want one of those like—if it's like, “Okay, you're going to, like, set back the company roadmap by six months if you have to pay this. Do you want to do it?” Like, [groans] “Fine, I'll eat some crow.”But okay. And then followed immediately by, wow, if Pete of all people can mess this up, customers are going to be doomed here. We should figure out what happened. And I'm doing the math. Like, Pete, “What did you actually do?” And you're sitting there and you're saying, “Well, I had like a 20 gig volume that I did this.” And I'm doing the numbers, and it's like—Pete: Something's wrong.Corey: “How sure are you when you say ‘gigabyte,' that you were—that actually means what you think it did? Like, were you off by a lot? Like, did you mean exabytes?” Like, what's the deal here?Pete: Like, multiple factors.Corey: Yeah. How much—“How many IOPS did you give that thing, buddy?” And it turned out what happened was that when they launched this, they had mispriced it in the system by a factor of a million. So, it was fun. I think by the end of it, all of your experimentation was somewhere between five to seven cents. Which—Pete: Yeah. It was a—Corey: Which is why you don't work here anymore because no one cost me seven cents of money to give to Amazon—Pete: How dare you?Corey: —on my watch. Get out.Pete: How dare you, sir?Corey: Exactly.Pete: Yeah, that [laugh] was amazing to see, as someone who has done—definitely maid screw-ups that have cost real money—you know, S3 list requests are always a fun one at scale—but that one was supremely fun to see the—Corey: That was a scary one because another one they'd done previously was they had messed up Lightsail pricing, where people would log in, and, like, “Okay, so what is my Lightsail instance going to cost?” And I swear to you, this is true, it was saying—this was back in 2017 or so—the answer was, like, “$4.3 billion.” Because when you see that you just start laughing because you know it's a mistake. You know, that they're not going to actually demand that you spend $4.3 billion for a single instance—unless it's running SAP—and great.It's just, it's a laugh. It's clearly a mispriced, and it's clearly a bug that's going to get—it's going to get fixed. I just spun up this new EBS volume that no one fully understands yet and it cost me thousands of dollars. That's the sort of thing that no, no, I could actually see that happening. There are instances now that cost something like 100 bucks an hour or whatnot to run. I can see spinning up the wrong thing by mistake and getting bitten by it. There's a bunch of fun configuration mistakes you can make that will, “Hee, hee, hee. Why can I see that bill spike from orbit?” And that's the scary thing.Pete: Well, it's the original CI and CD problem of the per-hour billing, right? That was super common of, like, yeah, like, an i3, you know, 16XL server is pretty cheap per hour, but if you're charged per hour and you spin up a bunch for five minutes. Like, it—you will be shocked [laugh] by what you see there. So—Corey: Yeah. Mistakes will show. And I get it. It's also people as individuals are very different psychologically than companies are. With companies it's one of those, “Great we're optimizing to bring in more revenue and we don't really care about saving money at all costs.”Whereas people generally have something that looks a lot like a fixed income in the form of a salary or whatnot, so it's it is easier for us to cut spend than it is for us to go out and make more money. Like, I don't want to get a second job, or pitch my boss on stuff, and yeah. So, all and all, routing out the rest of what happened at re:Invent, they—this is the problem is that they have a bunch of minor things like SageMaker Inference Recommender. Yeah, I don't care. Anything—Pete: [laugh].Corey: —[crosstalk 00:28:47] SageMaker I mostly tend to ignore, for safety. I did like the way they described Amplify Studio because they made it sound like a WYSIWYG drag and drop, build a React app. It's not it. It basically—you can do that in Figma and then it can hook it up to some things in some cases. It's not what I want it to be, which is Honeycode, except good. But we'll get there some year. Maybe.Pete: There's a lot of stuff that was—you know, it's the classic, like, preview, which sure, like, from a product standpoint, it's great. You know, they have a level of scale where they can say, “Here's this thing we're building,” which could be just a twinkle in a product managers, call it preview, and get thousands of people who would be happy to test it out and give you feedback, and it's a, it's great that you have that capability. But I often look at so much stuff and, like, that's really cool, but, like, can I, can I have it now? Right? Like—or you can't even get into the preview plan, even though, like, you have that specific problem. And it's largely just because either, like, your scale isn't big enough, or you don't have a good enough relationship with your account manager, or I don't know, countless other reasons.Corey: The thing that really throws me, too, is the pre-announcements that come a year or so in advance, like, the Outpost smaller ones are finally available, but it feels like when they do too many pre-announcements or no big marquee service announcements, as much as they talk about, “We're getting back to fundamentals,” no, you have a bunch of teams that blew the deadline. That's really what it is; let's not call it anything else. Another one that I think is causing trouble for folks—I'm fortunate in that I don't do much work with Oracle databases, or Microsoft SQL databases—but they extended RDS Custom to Microsoft SQL at the [unintelligible 00:30:27] SQL server at re:Invent this year, which means this comes down to things I actually use, we're going to have a problem because historically, the lesson has always been if I want to run my own databases and tweak everything, I do it on top of an EC2 instance. If I want to managed database, relational database service, great, I use RDS. RDS Custom basically gives you root into the RDS instance. Which means among other things, yes, you can now use RDS to run containers.But it lets you do a lot of things that are right in between. So, how do you position this? When should I use RDS Custom? Can you give me an easy answer to that question? And they used a lot of words to say, no, they cannot. It's basically completely blowing apart the messaging and positioning of both of those services in some unfortunate ways. We'll learn as we go.Pete: Yeah. Honestly, it's like why, like, why would I use this? Or how would I use this? And this is I think, fundamentally, what's hard when you just say yes to everything. It's like, they in many cases, I don't think, like, I don't want to say they don't understand why they're doing this, but if it's not like there's a visionary who's like, this fits into this multi-year roadmap.That roadmap is largely—if that roadmap is largely generated by the customers asking for it, then it's not like, oh, we're building towards this Northstar of RDS being whatever. You might say that, but your roadmap's probably getting moved all over the place because, you know, this company that pays you a billion dollars a year is saying, “I would give you $2 billion a year for all of my Oracle databases, but I need this specific thing.” I can't imagine a scenario that they would say, “Oh, well, we're building towards this Northstar, and that's not on the way there.” Right? They'd be like, “New Northstar. Another billion dollars, please.”Corey: Yep. Probably the worst release of re:Invent, from my perspective, is RUM, Real User Monitoring, for CloudWatch. And I, to be clear, I wrote a shitposting Twitter threading client called Last Tweet in AWS. Go to lasttweetinaws.com. You can all use it. It's free; I just built this for my own purposes. And I've instrumented it with RUM. Now, Real User Monitoring is something that a lot of monitoring vendors use, and also CloudWatch now. And what that is, is it embeds a listener into the JavaScript that runs on client load, and it winds up looking at what's going on loading times, et cetera, so you can see when users are unhappy. I have no problem with this. Other than that, you know, liking users? What's up with that?Pete: Crazy.Corey: But then, okay, now, what this does is unlike every other RUM tool out there, which charges per session, meaning I am going to be… doing a web page load, it charges per data item, which includes HTTP errors, or JavaScript errors, et cetera. Which means that if you have a high transaction volume site and suddenly your CDN takes a nap like Fastly did for an hour last year, suddenly your bill is stratospheric for this because errors abound and cascade, and you can have thousands of errors on a single page load for these things, and it is going to be visible from orbit, at least with a per session basis thing, when you start to go viral, you understand that, “Okay, this is probably going to cost me some more on these things, and oops, I guess I should write less compelling content.” Fine. This is one of those one misconfiguration away and you are wailing and gnashing teeth. Now, this is a new service. I believe that they will waive these surprise bills in the event that things like that happen. But it's going to take a while and you're going to be worrying the whole time if you've rolled this out naively. So it's—Pete: Well and—Corey: —I just don't like the pricing.Pete: —how many people will actively avoid that service, right? And honestly, choose a competitor because the competitor could be—the competitor could be five times more expensive, right, on face value, but it's the certainty of it. It's the uncertainty of what Amazon will charge you. Like, no one wants a surprise bill. “Well, a vendor is saying that they'll give us this contract for $10,000. I'm going to pay $10,000, even though RUM might be a fraction of that price.”It's honestly, a lot of these, like, product analytics tools and monitoring tools, you'll often see they price be a, like, you know, MAU, Monthly Active User, you know, or some sort of user-based pricing, like, the number of people coming to your site. You know, and I feel like at least then, if you are trying to optimize for lots of users on your site, and more users means more revenue, then you know, if your spend is going up, but your revenue is also going up, that's a win-win. But if it's like someone—you know, your third-party vendor dies and you're spewing out errors, or someone, you know, upgraded something and it spews out errors. That no one would normally see; that's the thing. Like, unless you're popping open that JavaScript console, you're not seeing any of those errors, yet somehow it's like directly impacting your bottom line? Like that doesn't feel [crosstalk 00:35:06].Corey: Well, there is something vaguely Machiavellian about that. Like, “How do I get my developers to care about errors on consoles?” Like, how about we make it extortionately expensive for them not to. It's, “Oh, all right, then. Here we go.”Pete: And then talk about now you're in a scenario where you're working on things that don't directly impact the product. You're basically just sweeping up the floor and then trying to remove errors that maybe don't actually affect it and they're not actually an error.Corey: Yeah. I really do wonder what the right answer is going to be. We'll find out. Again, we live, we learn. But it's also, how long does it take a service that has bad pricing at launch, or an unfortunate story around it to outrun that reputation?People are still scared of Glacier because of its original restore pricing, which was non-deterministic for any sensible human being, and in some cases lead to I'm used to spending 20 to 30 bucks a month on this. Why was I just charged two grand?Pete: Right.Corey: Scare people like that, they don't come back.Pete: I'm trying to actually remember which service it is that basically gave you an estimate, right? Like, turn it on for a month, and it would give you an estimate of how much this was going to cost you when billing started.Corey: It was either Detective or GuardDuty.Pete: Yeah, it was—yeah, that's exactly right. It was one of those two. And honestly, that was unbelievably refreshing to see. You know, like, listen, you have the data, Amazon. You know what this is going to cost me, so when I, like, don't make me spend all this time to go and figure out the cost. If you have all this data already, just tell me, right?And if I look at it and go, “Yeah, wow. Like, turning this on in my environment is going to cost me X dollars. Like, yeah, that's a trade-off I want to make, I'll spend that.” But you know, with some of the—and that—a little bit of a worry on some of the intelligent tiering on S3 is that the recommendation is likely going to be everything goes to intelligent tiering first, right? It's the gp3 story. Put everything on gp3, then move it to the proper volume, move it to an sc or an st or an io. Like, gp3 is where you start. And I wonder if that's going to be [crosstalk 00:37:08].Corey: Except I went through a wizard yesterday to launch an EC2 instance and its default on the free tier gp2.Pete: Yeah. Interesting.Corey: Which does not thrill me. I also still don't understand for the life of me why in some regions, the free tier is a t2 instance, when t3 is available.Pete: They're uh… my guess is that they've got some free t—they got a bunch of t2s lying around. [laugh].Corey: Well, one of the most notable announcements at re:Invent that most people didn't pay attention to is their ability now to run legacy instance types on top of Nitro, which really speaks to what's going on behind the scenes of we can get rid of all that old hardware and emulate the old m1 on modern equipment. So, because—you can still have that legacy, ancient instance, but now you're going—now we're able to wind up greening our data centers, which is part of their big sustainability push, with their ‘Sustainability Pillar' for the well-architected framework. They're talking more about what the green choices in cloud are. Which is super handy, not just because of the economic impact because we could use this pretty directly to reverse engineer their various margins on a per-service or per-offering basis. Which I'm not sure they're aware of yet, but oh, they're going to be.And that really winds up being a win for the planet, obviously, but also something that is—that I guess puts a little bit of choice on customers. The challenge I've got is, with my serverless stuff that I build out, if I spend—the Google search I make to figure out what the most economic, most sustainable way to do that is, is going to have a bigger carbon impact on the app itself. That seems to be something that is important at scale, but if you're not at scale, it's one of those, don't worry about it. Because let's face it, the cloud providers—all of them—are going to have a better sustainability story than you are running this in your own data centers, or on a Raspberry Pi that's always plugged into the wall.Pete: Yeah, I mean, you got to remember, Amazon builds their own power plants to power their data centers. Like, that's the level they play, right? There, their economies of scale are so entirely—they're so entirely different than anything that you could possibly even imagine. So, it's something that, like, I'm sure people will want to choose for. But, you know, if I would honestly say, like, if we really cared about our computing costs and the carbon footprint of it, I would love to actually know the carbon footprint of all of the JavaScript trackers that when I go to various news sites, and it loads, you know, the whatever thousands of trackers and tracking the all over, like, what is the carbon impact of some of those choices that I actually could control, like, as a either a consumer or business person?Corey: I really hope that it turns into something that makes a meaningful difference, and it's not just greenwashing. But we'll see. In the fullness of time, we're going to figure that out. Oh, they're also launching some mainframe stuff. They—like that's great.Pete: Yeah, those are still a thing.Corey: I don't deal with a lot of customers that are doing things with that in any meaningful sense. There is no AWS/400, so all right.Pete: [laugh]. Yeah, I think honestly, like, I did talk to a friend of mine who's in a big old enterprise and has a mainframe, and they're actually replacing their mainframe with Lambda. Like they're peeling off—which is, like, a great move—taking the monolith, right, and peeling off the individual components of what it can do into these discrete Lambda functions. Which I thought was really fascinating. Again, it's a five-year-long journey to do something like that. And not everyone wants to wait five years, especially if their support's about to run out for that giant box in the, you know, giant warehouse.Corey: The thing that I also noticed—and this is probably the—I guess, one of the—talk about swing and a miss on pricing—they have a—what is it?—there's a VPC IP Address Manager, which tracks the the IP addresses assigned to your VPCs that are allocated versus not, and it's 20 cents a month per IP address. It's like, “Okay. So, you're competing against a Google Sheet or an Excel spreadsheet”—which is what people are using for these things now—“Only you're making it extortionately expensive?”Pete: What kind of value does that provide for 20—I mean, like, again—Corey: I think Infoblox or someone like that offers it where they become more cost-effective as soon as you hit 500 IP addresses. And it's just—like, this is what I'm talking about. I know it does not cost AWS that kind of money to store an IP address. You can store that in a Route 53 TXT record for less money, for God's sake. And that's one of those, like, “Ah, we could extract some value pricing here.”Like, I don't know if it's a good product or not. Given its pricing, I don't give a shit because it's going to be too expensive for anything beyond trivial usage. So, it's a swing and a miss from that perspective. It's just, looking at that, I laugh, and I don't look at it again.Pete: See I feel—Corey: I'm not usually price sensitive. I want to be clear on that. It's just, that is just Looney Tunes, clown shoes pricing.Pete: Yeah. It's honestly, like, in many cases, I think the thing that I have seen, you know, in the past few years is, in many cases, it can honestly feel like Amazon is nickel-and-diming their customers in so many ways. You know, the explosion of making it easy to create multiple Amazon accounts has a direct impact to waste in the cloud because there's a lot of stuff you have to have her account. And the more accounts you have, those costs grow exponentially as you have these different places. Like, you kind of lose out on the economies of scale when you have a smaller number of accounts.And yeah, it's hard to optimize for that. Like, if you're trying to reduce your spend, it's challenging to say, “Well, by making a change here, we'll save, you know, $10,000 in this account.” “That doesn't seem like a lot when we're spending millions.” “Well, hold on a second. You'll save $10,000 per account, and you have 500 accounts,” or, “You have 1000 accounts,” or something like that.Or almost cost avoidance of this cost is growing unbounded in all of your accounts. It's tiny right now. So, like, now would be the time you want to do something with it. But like, again, for a lot of companies that have adopted the practice of endless Amazon accounts, they've almost gone, like, it's the classic, like, you know, I've got 8000 GitHub repositories for my source code. Like, that feels just as bad as having one GitHub repository for your repo. I don't know what the balance is there, but anytime these different types of services come out, it feels like, “Oh, wow. Like, I'm going to get nickeled and dimed for it.”Corey: This ties into the re:Post launch, which is a rebranding of their forums, where, okay, great, it was a little crufty and it need modernize, but it still ties your identity to an IAM account, or the root email address for an Amazon account, which is great. This is completely worthless because as soon as I change jobs, I lose my identity, my history, the rest, on this forum. I'm not using it. It shows that there's a lack of awareness that everyone is going to have multiple accounts with which they interact, and that people are going to deal with the platform longer than any individual account will. It's just a continual swing and a miss on things like that.And it gets back to the billing question of, “Okay. When I spin up an account, do I want them to just continue billing me—because don't turn this off; this is important—or do I want there to be a hard boundary where if you're about to charge me, turn it off. Turn off the thing that's about to cost me money.” And people hem and haw like this is an insurmountable problem, but I think the way to solve it is, let me specify that intent when I provision the account. Where it's, “This is a production account for a bank. I really don't want you turning it off.” Versus, “I'm a student learner who thinks that a Managed NAT Gateway might be a good thing. Yeah, I want you to turn off my demo Hello World app that will teach me what's going on, rather than surprising me with a five-figure bill at the end of the month.”Pete: Yeah. It shouldn't be that hard. I mean, but again, I guess everything's hard at scale.Corey: Oh, yeah. Oh yeah.Pete: But still, I feel like every time I log into Cost Explorer and I look at—and this is years it's still not fixed. Not that it's even possible to fix—but on the first day of the month, you look at Cost Explorer, and look at what Amazon is estimating your monthly bill is going to be. It's like because of your, you know—Corey: Your support fees, and your RI purchases, and savings plans purchases.Pete: [laugh]. All those things happened, right? First of the month, and it's like, yeah, “Your bill's going to be $800,000 this year.” And it's like, “Shouldn't be, like, $1,000?” Like, you know, it's the little things like that, that always—Corey: The one-off charges, like, “Oh, your Route 53 zone,” and all the stuff that gets charged on a monthly cadence, which fine, whatever. I mean, I'm okay with it, but it's also the, like, be careful when that happen—I feel like there's a way to make that user experience less jarring.Pete: Yeah because that problem—I mean, in my scenario, companies that I've worked at, there's been multiple times that a non-technical person will look at that data and go into immediate freakout mode, right? And that's never something that you want to have happen because now that's just adding a lot of stress and anxiety into a company that is—with inaccurate data. Like, the data—like, the answer you're giving someone is just wrong. Perhaps you shouldn't even give it to them if it's that wrong. [laugh].Corey: Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing what happens this coming year. We're already seeing promising stuff. They—give people a timeline on how long in advance these things record—late last night, AWS released a new console experience. When you log into the AWS console now, there's a new beta thing. And I gave it some grief on Twitter because I'm still me, but like the direction it's going. It lets you customize your view with widgets and whatnot.And until they start selling widgets on marketplace or having sponsored widgets, you can't remove I like it, which is no guarantee at some point. But it shows things like, I can move the cost stuff, I can move the outage stuff up around, I can have the things that are going on in my account—but who I am means I can shift this around. If I'm a finance manager, cool. I can remove all the stuff that's like, “Hey, you want to get started spinning up an EC2 instance?” “Absolutely not. Do I want to get told, like, how to get certified? Probably not. Do I want to know what the current bill is and whether—and my list of favorites that I've pinned, whatever services there? Yeah, absolutely do.” This is starting to get there.Pete: Yeah, I wonder if it really is a way to start almost hedging on organizations having a wider group of people accessing AWS. I mean, in previous companies, I absolutely gave access to the console for tools like QuickSight, for tools like Athena, for the DataBrew stuff, the Glue DataBrew. Giving, you know, non-technical people access to be able to do these, like, you know, UI ETL tasks, you know, a wider group of a company is getting access into Amazon. So, I think anything that Amazon does to improve that experience for, you know, the non-SREs, like the people who would traditionally log in, like, that is an investment definitely worth making.Corey: “Well, what could non-engineering types possibly be doing in the AWS console?” “I don't know, jackhole, maybe paying the bill? Just a thought here.” It's the, there are people who look at these things from a variety of different places, and you have such sprawl in the AWS world that there are different personas by a landslide. If I'm building Twitter for Pets, you probably don't want to be pitching your mainframe migration services to me the same way that you would if I were a 200-year-old insurance company.Pete: Yeah, exactly. And the number of those products are going to grow, the number of personas are going to grow, and, yeah, they'll have to do something that they want to actually, you know, maintain that experience so that every person can have, kind of, the experience that they want, and not be distracted, you know? “Oh, what's this? Let me go test this out.” And it's like, you know, one-time charge for $10,000 because, like, that's how it's charged. You know, that's not an experience that people like.Corey: No. They really don't. Pete, I want to thank you for spending the time to chat with me again, as is our tradition. I'm hoping we can do it in person this year, when we go at the end of 2022, to re:Invent again. Or that no one goes in person. But this hybrid nonsense is for the birds.Pete: Yeah. I very much would love to get back to another one, and yeah, like, I think there could be an interesting kind of merging here of our annual re:Invent recap slash live brunch, you know, stream you know, hot takes after a long week. [laugh].Corey: Oh, yeah. The real way that you know that it's a good joke is when one of us says something, the other one sprays scrambled eggs out of their nose. Yeah, that's the way to do it.Pete: Exactly. Exactly.Corey: Pete, thank you so much. If people want to learn more about what you're up to—hopefully, you know, come back. We miss you, but you're unaffiliated, you're a startup advisor. Where can people find you to learn more, if they for some unforgivable reason don't know who or what a Pete Cheslock is?Pete: Yeah. I think the easiest place to find me is always on Twitter. I'm just at @petecheslock. My DMs are always open and I'm always down to expand my network and chat with folks.And yeah, right, now, I'm just, as I jokingly say, professionally unaffiliated. I do some startup advisory work and have been largely just kind of—honestly checking out the state of the economy. Like, there's a lot of really interesting companies out there, and some interesting problems to solve. And, you know, trying to spend some of my time learning more about what companies are up to nowadays. So yeah, if you got some interesting problems, you know, you can follow my Twitter or go to LinkedIn if you want some great, you know, business hot takes about, you know, shitposting basically.Corey: Same thing. Pete, thanks so much for joining me, I appreciate it.Pete: Thanks for having me.Corey: Pete Cheslock, startup advisor, professionally unaffiliated, and recurring re:Invent analyst pal of mine. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry comment calling me a jackass because do I know how long it took you personally to price CloudWatch RUM?Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

00:38 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen introduce today's topic, Quarterly Reviews10:43 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen take a moment to promote SKED11:40 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen share some best practices for conducting quarterly reviews23:27 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen take a moment to promote Chiro Match Makers and Genesis25:34 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen discuss the importance of setting time aside to connect with your team members individually at the appropriate time and placeEPISODE QUOTES“The key is to create focus and accountability for your teams in a quarterly rhythm where you get everybody on the team together to get full chime in and buy-in around vision casting, product and process, goal-setting and the marketing machine.” (01:04) (Dr. Stephen)“I think we all agree that if we do this right, meaning we get the right person in the right role doing the right work and doing it the right way, then this becomes a remarkable meeting.” (02:57) (Dr. Pete)“When I started to meet with doctors and the team individually, I began to really connect with them. I saw the human being in front of me. They stopped being a tool to help me achieve my goals and they became a human being. And it really brought the human element into my practice, which I think I really needed.” (08:56) (Dr. Pete)“If you want these meetings to be powerful, don't have surprises. Go in ready. And guess who's gonna get the most value out of you being prepared? Your team member! They're going to feel so much more loved, appreciated and valued if you've actually taken time to prepare for the meeting.” (18:35) (Dr. Pete)“It's really important as your team grows and expands that you know and they know that there's an appropriate place and time to have certain conversations and deal with certain things.” (27:38) (Dr. Pete)LINKS MENTIONEDDr. Stephen's LinkedInDr. Peter's LinkedInThe Remarkable CEO WebsiteDr. Stephen's Book – The Remarkable Practice: The Definitive Guide to Build a Thriving Chiropractic BusinessChiro Match Makers WebsiteSchedule a Brainstorming call with Dr. PeteLearn more about the Remarkable Vault here

00:37 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen introduce today's topic, Remarkable Product and Process05:34 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen define the purpose of a business08:53 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen talk about why it is critical to get clarity on your product offering14:01 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen take a moment to promote Chiro Match Makers & Perfect Patients21:16 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen speak to the path to a Remarkable Practice and identifying where the breakdowns occur throughout the process25:27 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen announce an exciting giveawayEPISODE QUOTES“The purpose of a business is to add value to another by solving a problem that they're willing to pay you to solve for them. So, what is the value that you add to your community? What is your remarkable product? You have to know and your team has to know so you can convey it to your community.” (05:34) (Dr. Stephen)“Confusion never converts. And what we're talking about with confusion is product confusion. And that product confusion doesn't convert, that starts at attraction.” (08:53) (Dr. Pete)“I'm saying, ‘Are you crystal clear on your first product? Are you delivering your first product the way that it needs to be delivered? Do you have a process that supports that and are you succeeding?' Don't try to add in another product because your other product isn't working, meaning it's not generating the revenue and the public doesn't seem to be buying it.” (09:29) (Dr. Pete)“It's so critical that you as the leader have total clarity around your process. You have to understand that for you to be able to convey to your team exactly how you deliver the value, you have to have that clarity first.” (16:19) (Dr. Stephen)“This is what our Remarkable Process looks like. That's where you're gonna arrive at clarity, the clarity helps a person get beyond ‘why should I start chiropractic care' to ‘why should I stay under chiropractic care?' Because, ultimately, retention is a reflection of your clarity – your clarity as a leader, your team's clarity, and your patient's clarity – specifically clarity around the value of regular chiropractic care.” (27:40) (Dr. Stephen)LINKS MENTIONEDDr. Stephen's LinkedInDr. Peter's LinkedInThe Remarkable CEO WebsiteDr. Stephen's Book – The Remarkable Practice: The Definitive Guide to Build a Thriving Chiropractic BusinessChiro Match Makers WebsiteSchedule a Brainstorming call with Dr. PeteLearn more about the Remarkable Vault hereDownload Your Copy of the ‘First 28 Months' hereJoin us for the US Conversion Immersion. Register Now!

00:37 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen introduce today's topic, Remarkable Vision Casting06:37 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen speak to the importance of gaining clarity on what success looks like for your business11:14 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen take a moment to promote Chiro Match Makers & Perfect Patients12:53 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen expound on the many benefits of vision casting and how it goes hand in hand with core values20:39 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen share how Board Meetings can be used to achieve alignment25:41 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen talk about the importance of having an Accountability ChartEPISODE QUOTES“You vision always has to be looking farther ahead. You have to be looking down, farther ahead. Most of the people who are working on your team, they're not thinking much farther than today. So the only person that's actually going to do this for the organization is you.” (04:04) (Dr. Pete)“It always starts with vision. And clarity of the vision will determine exactly how far and how fast we go.” (11:05) (Dr. Stephen)“Vision is a pulling force; it pulls people in.” (17:00) (Dr. Pete)“Let's talk about success for a minute because you teed up this conversation around what does success really mean? The key is that it's going to be a very unique and personal experience. No one can tell you what success looks like to you. Dr. Pete and I are very aligned with this.” (18:40) (Dr. Stephen)“What are the key performance metrics for me this quarter that moves us forward towards tone, two, three steps closer to the next, the ultimate vision that I see and I can articulate.” (24:39) (Dr. Pete)“The COO owns the now, whereas the CEO owns the next.” (29:01) (Dr. Stephen)LINKS MENTIONEDDr. Stephen's LinkedInDr. Peter's LinkedInThe Remarkable CEO WebsiteDr. Stephen's Book – The Remarkable Practice: The Definitive Guide to Build a Thriving Chiropractic BusinessChiro Match Makers WebsiteSchedule a Brainstorming call with Dr. PeteLearn more about the Remarkable Vault hereJoin us for the US Conversion Immersion. Register Now!

00:38 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen introduce today's topic, How the Top Chiropractors Build World Class Teams07:08 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen stress the importance of building a remarkable practice through a world class team11:48 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen begin the break down the 25 criteria for team-building success13:20 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen stress the importance of having Accountability and Organizational Charts18:45 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen break down the Baseball Analogy20:21 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen discuss the value of having well-defined roles and descriptions and hiring people that share your core values25:38 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen take a moment to promote Chiro Match Makers and CLA32:13 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen talk about identifying the right role39:24 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen discuss the importance of training49:27 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen finish up by sharing why a practice with a world class team can no longer be about one person (you) EPISODE QUOTES“The market for chiropractic, the marketplace, the need for chiropractic has grown more than ever before. It is absolutely vital that we are building remarkable businesses, that we are firing on all cylinders with these domains.” (07:16) (Dr. Pete)“You cannot have a clear and current Accountability Chart if you don't have a clear and current Org Chart.” (15:24) (Dr. Pete)“It comes down to the ‘Four Rights.' It's getting the right people into the right seats, doing the right work, the right way.” (17:17) (Dr. Stephen)“The first ‘Right' of the ‘Four Rights' to get right is that number one we won't settle for less than A-players. And one of the first criteria to determine if this is an A-player is they share our core values.” (23:26) (Dr. Pete)“Vision stories have seasons and so do teams. I like to think that people are with us for a reason or a season.” (29:12) (Dr. Stephen)“We have a culture, just the same as you, where there's always a more excellent way. And we train to discover that.” (42:19) (Dr. Pete)“We want visibility into our business. We want accountability, because we know that accountability drives productivity.” (47:09) (Dr. Stephen)LINKS MENTIONEDDr. Stephen's LinkedInDr. Peter's LinkedInThe Remarkable CEO WebsiteDr. Stephen's Book – The Remarkable Practice: The Definitive Guide to Build a Thriving Chiropractic BusinessDownload your copy of the Clinicoscopy Team Building Success Score PDF hereChiro Match Makers WebsiteSchedule a Brainstorming call with Dr. Pete

Links: Unconventional Guide to AWS Cost Management: https://www.duckbillgroup.com/resources/unconventional-guide-to-aws-cost-management/ Migrate from Oracle to Amazon Aurora: https://aws.amazon.com/getting-started/hands-on/migrate-oracle-to-amazon-aurora/ TranscriptCorey: This episode is sponsored in part by LaunchDarkly. Take a look at what it takes to get your code into production. I’m going to just guess that it’s awful because it’s always awful. No one loves their deployment process. What if launching new features didn’t require you to do a full-on code and possibly infrastructure deploy? What if you could test on a small subset of users and then roll it back immediately if results aren’t what you expect? LaunchDarkly does exactly this. To learn more, visit launchdarkly.com and tell them Corey sent you, and watch for the wince.Pete: Hello, and welcome to the AWS Morning Brief: Fridays From the Field. I am Pete Cheslock.Jesse: I’m Jesse DeRose.Pete: We’re coming at you again with some more listener questions from the Unconventional Guide to AWS Cost Management. I’m excited. People are listening to us, Jesse.Jesse: This is fantastic. I’m really excited that we have one fan. I’ve always wanted one fan.Pete: Well, two fans now. Maybe even more because we keep getting questions. And you can also be one of our Friends of the Pod by going to lastweekinaws.com/QA. And you can give us some feedback, you can give us a question and, like, will totally answer it because we like Friends of the Pod.Jesse: We may or may not enter you into a raffle to get a Members Only jacket that’s branded with ‘Friends with the Pod.’Pete: We should get some pins made, maybe.Jesse: Ohh…Pete: I think that's a good idea.Jesse: Yeah.Pete: So, what are we answering today, or attempting to answer for our listener, Jesse?Jesse: So today, we’ve got a really great question from [Godwin 00:01:20]. Thank you, Godwin, Godwin writes, “I truly believe that the system that I support is, like, a data hoarder. We do a lot of data ingestion, we recently did a lift-and-shift of the system to AWS, we use an Oracle database. The question is, how do I segregate the data and start thinking about moving it out of traditional relational databases and into other types of databases? Presently, our method is all types of data goes into a quote-unquote, ‘all-purpose database,’ and the database is growing quite fast. Where should I get started?”Pete: Well, I just want to commend you for a lift-and-shift into Amazon. That’s a Herculean feat, no matter what you’re lifting and shifting over. Hopefully, you have maybe started to decommission those original data centers and you don’t just have more data in twice as many locations.Jesse: [laugh]. But I also want to call out well done for thinking about not just the lift-and-shift, but the next step. I feel like that’s the thing that a lot of people forget about. They think about the lift-and-shift, and then they go, “Awesome. We’re hybrid. We’re in AWS, now. We’re in our data center. We’re good. Case closed.” And they forget that there’s a lot more work to do to modernize all those workloads in AWS, once you’ve lifted and shifted. And this is part of that conversation.Pete: Yeah, that’s a really good point because I know we’ve talked about this in the past, the lift-and-shift shot clock: when you don’t start migrating, start modernizing those applications to take advantage of things that are more cloud-native, the technical debt is really going to start piling up, and the folks that are going to manage that are going to get more burnt out, and it really is going to end poorly. So, the fact you’re starting to think about this now is a great thing. Also, what is available to you now that you’re on AWS is huge compared to a traditional data center.Jesse: Yeah.Pete: And that’s not just talking about the—I don’t even know if I’ve ever counted how many different databases exist on Amazon. I mean, they have a database for, at this point, every type of data. I mean, is there a type of data that they’re going to create, just so that they can create a database to put it into?Jesse: Wouldn’t surprise me at this point.Pete: They’ll find a way [laugh] to come up with that charge on your bill. But when it comes to Oracle, specifically Oracle databases, there’s obviously a big problem in not only the cost of the engine, running the database on a RDS or something to that effect, but you have licensing costs that are added into it as well. Maybe you have a bring-your-own-license or maybe you’re just using the off-the-shelf, but the off-the-shelf, kind of, ‘retail on-demand pricing’ RDS—I’m using air quotes for all these things, but you can’t see that—they will just have the licensing costs baked in as well. So, you’re paying for it—kind of—either way.Jesse: And I think this is something also to think about that we’ll dive into in a minute, but one of the things that a lot of people forget about when they move into AWS says that you’re not just paying for data sitting on a piece of hardware in a data center that’s depreciating, now. You’re paying for storage, you’re paying for I/O costs, you’re paying for data transfer, to Pete’s point, you’re also paying for some of the license as well, potentially. So, there’s lots of different costs associated with keeping an Oracle Database running in AWS. So, that’s actually probably the best place to start thinking about this next step about where to get started. Think about the usage patterns of your data.And this may be something that you need to involve engineering, maybe involve product for if they’re part of these conversations for storage of your product or your feature sets. Think about what are the usage patterns of your data?Pete: Yeah, exactly. Now, you may say to yourself, “Well, we’re on Oracle”—and I’m sure people listening are like, “Well, that’s your problem. You should just move off of Oracle.” And since you can’t go back in time and undo that decision—and the reality is, it probably was a good decision at the time. There’s a lot of businesses, including Amazon, who ran all of their systems on Oracle.And then migrated off of them. Understanding the usage patterns, what type of data is going into Oracle, I think is a big one. Because if you can understand the access patterns of the types of data that are going in, that can help you start peeling off where that data should go. Now, let’s say you’re just pushing all new data created. And we don’t even know what your data is, so we’re going to take some wild assumptions here on what you could possibly do—but more so just giving you homework, really—thinking about the type of data going in, right?If you’re just—“I’m pushing all of my data into this database because someday we might need to query it.” That’s actually a situation where you really want to start thinking of leveraging more of a data warehouse-style approach to it, where you have a large amount of data being created, you don’t know if you’re going to need to query it in the future, but you might want to glean some value out of that. Using S3, which is now available to you outside of your data center world, is going to be super valuable to just very cheaply shove data into S3, to be able to go back in later time. And then you can use things like Athena to ad hoc query that data, or leverage a lot of the ingestion services that exist to suck that data into other databases. But thinking about what’s being created, when it is going into places is a big first step to start understanding, well, how quickly does this data need to come back?Can the query be measured in many seconds? Can it be done ad hoc, like in Athena? Does it need to be measured in milliseconds? What’s the replication that needs to happen? Is this very valuable data that we need to have multiple backups on?Is it queried more than it’s created? Maybe you need to have multiple replica reader databases that are there. So, all these types of things of really understanding just what’s there to begin with, and it’s probably going to be in talking to a lot of engineering teams.Jesse: Yeah, you can think about this project in the same way that you might move from a monolith to a microservice architecture. So, if you’re moving from a monolith to a microservice architecture, you might start peeling away pieces of the monolith, one at a time. Pieces that can easily be turned into microservices that stand on their own within the cloud, even if they’re running on the same underlying infrastructure as the monolith itself within AWS. And then, as you can pull those pieces away, then start thinking about does this need to be in a relational database? Does this need to have the same amount of uptime and availability as the resources that are sitting in my Oracle Database right now?All those things that Pete just mentioned, start thinking about all of those components to figure out where best to pull off the individual components of data, and ultimately put them in different places within AWS. And to be clear, there’s lots of great guides on the internet that talk about moving from your Oracle database into, gosh, just about any database of choice. AWS even has specific instructions for this, and we’ll throw a link in the [show notes 00:09:02].They really, really want you to move this data to RDS Aurora. They go through painstaking detail to talk about using the AWS schema conversion tool to convert your schema over; they talk about the AWS database migration service to migrate the data over, and then they talk about performing post-migration activities such as running SQL queries for validating the object types, object count, things like that. I think that a lot of folks actually don’t know that the database migration service exists, and it’s something worth calling out as a really powerful tool.Pete: Yeah, the Amazon DMS service is honestly I think, a super-underrated service that people just don’t know about. It has the ability to replicate data from both on-premises databases to Amazon databases but also databases already running on Amazon. You could replicate from a database running on EC2 into Aurora. You could replicate that into S3—you know, replicate data into S3 that way, bringing things into sync—replicate that data into S3, and then maybe use it for other purposes. It can replicate data from DocumentDB into other sources.So, they’re clearly doing a big investment in there. And to Jesse’s point, yeah, Amazon really wants this data. So, talk to your account manager as you’re testing out some of these services. Do a small proof of concept, maybe, to see how well it works, if you can understand the queries, or you can point your application over at an Aurora database with some of this data migrated in; that’s a great way to understand how well this could work for your organization. But as Jesse mentioned, they do want that data in Aurora.So, if it turns out that you’re looking at your—you know, migrate some data in there, and it’s starting to work, and you’re kind of getting a feel for the engineering effort to migrate there, stop. Talk to your account manager before you spend any more money on Aurora because it’s very likely that they can put together a program—if a program doesn’t already exist—to incentivize you to move that data over; they can give you subject matter expertise; they can provide you credits to help you migrate that data over. Don’t feel like you have to do this on your own. You have an account team; you should definitely reach out to them, and they will provide you a lot of help to get that data in there. They’ve done it for many of their other clients, and they’re happy to do it for you because they know that, long term, when you move that data to Aurora, it’s going to be very sticky in Aurora.You’re probably not going to move off of there. It’s a long game for them; that’s how they play it. So, check out those services; that could be a really great way to help you get rid of your Oracle addiction.Jesse: Yeah, and if you’re able to, as we talked about earlier, if you’re able to identify workloads that don’t need to run in a relational database, or don’t need to run in, maybe, a database at all, for that matter, stick that data in S3. Call it a day. Put them on lifecycle management policies or different storage tiers, and use Athena for ad hoc queries, or maybe Redshift if you’re doing more data warehouse-style tasks. But if that data doesn’t need to live in a relational database, there are many cheaper options for that data.Pete: Exactly. But one last point I will make is don’t shove it into MongoDB just because you want to have schema-less, or—Jesse: Please.Pete: —think about what you’re going to use it for, think about what the data access patterns because there is a right place for your data. Don’t just jump into no-SQL just ‘cause because you’ll probably end up with a bigger problem. In the long run.Corey: If your mean time to WTF for a security alert is more than a minute, it's time to look at Lacework. Lacework will help you get your security act together for everything from compliance service configurations to container app relationships, all without the need for PhDs in AWS to write the rules. If you're building a secure business on AWS with compliance requirements, you don't really have time to choose between antivirus or firewall companies to help you secure your stack. That's why Lacework is built from the ground up for the Cloud: low effort, high visibility and detection. To learn more, visit lacework.com.Pete: So Jesse, I’m looking at our list of questions. And it turns out, we have another question.Jesse: Ohh.Pete: Two questions came in.Jesse: You like me, you really like me!Pete: It’s so great. Again, you can also send us a question, lastweekinaws.com/QA. You can go there, drop in a question and feel free to put your name. Or not; you can be anonymous, it’s totally fine. We’ll happily answer your question either way. So Jesse, who is our next question from? What is this one about?Jesse: This one’s from [Joseph 00:13:19]. They write in, “Hey, folks. Love the show. Longtime listener, first-time caller.” Thank you. “I would love to know how people manage their costs in AWS Batch. Jobs themselves can’t be tagged for cost allocation, which makes things a bit complicated.” Lord Almighty, yes, it does. “How best should I see if the jobs are right-sized? Are they over-provisioned in terms of memory or compute? What’s the best way to see if EC2 is my better choice, versus Fargate, versus other options? How can I tell if the batch-managed cluster itself is under-utilized?”Pete: Oof. This is a loaded question with a lot of variables.Jesse: Yeah. And so we’re going to break it down because there’s definitely a couple questions here. But I want to start off with what AWS Batch is, just really quick to make sure everybody’s on the same page here. AWS Batch, effectively, is a managed service in AWS that schedules it and runs your batch computing jobs on top of AWS compute resources. Effectively, it does a lot of the heavy lifting configuration for you so you can just focus on analyzing the results of those queries.Pete: Yeah, exactly. And Batch supports a really wide variety of tooling that can operate this, and that’s why it’s hard for us to give, specifically, how you might optimize this, but I think some of the optimizations actually mirror a lot of the optimizations we’ve done with optimizing EMR clusters and things of that nature, where you’re running these distributed jobs. And you want to make sure that if you’re running straight off of EC2 instances, then you want to make sure that they are essentially maxed out. If the CPU is anything less than 100% for an on-demand instance, then there’s wasted, or there’s opportunity for improvement. And so making sure that your jobs are sized appropriately and balancing out memory and CPU so that, effectively, you’re using all of the memory and all of the CPU, that’s a real basic first step.But honestly, a lot of folks kind of miss out on that. They just kind of run a job and go off and do their own thing. They never really go back and look at those graphs. You can go to CloudWatch, they’re all going to be there for you.Jesse: Yeah. And to this point, there’s always an opportunity to make these workloads more ephemeral. If you have the opportunity to make it more ephemeral, please, please, please, please, absolutely do so. Unless your batch job needs to run 24/7. We’ve seen that in a few cases where they have, essentially, clusters that are running 24/7, but they’re not actually utilized regularly; the workloads are only scheduled for a short amount of time.So, if you don’t need those batch jobs running 24/7, please, by all means, move to more ephemeral resources, like Fargate. Fargate on Spot, Spot Instances in general, or even Lambda, which AWS Batch now supports as well.Pete: Yeah, it has some step function support, which is pretty interesting. Yeah, this is a great opportunity to aggressively—aggressively—leverage Spots, if you’re not currently today. The reality is that check out Fargate on Spot if you don’t need, like, a custom operating system, you don’t need a custom EBS volume size. If you do, then EC2 on Spot is probably the best option that you really have. But really do not want to be running anything on on-demand instances. Even on-demand instances with a really good savings plan, you’re still leaving money on the table because Spot Instances are going to be a lot cheaper than even the best savings plan that’s out there.Jesse: And I think that’s a good point, too, Pete, which is if you do need to run these workloads on-demand, 24/7, think about if you can get away with using Spot Instances. If you can’t get away with using Spot Instances, at least purchase a savings plan if you don’t do anything else. If you take nothing else away from this, at least make sure that you have some kind of savings plan in place for these resources so that you’re not paying on-demand costs 24/7. But in most cases, you can likely make them more ephemeral, which is going to save you a lot more money in the long run.Pete: Yeah, exactly. That’s the name of the game. I mean, when we talk to folks on Amazon, the more ephemeral you can make your application—the more you can have it handle interruption—the less expensive it will be to operate. And that goes from everywhere from Spot Instances and how they’re priced, right? If you just get a normal Spot Instance, it will have a really aggressive discount on it if you need zero time in advance before interruption.So, if that instance can just go in at any second, then you’ll get the best discount on that Spot Instance. But if your app needs a little time, or runs for a defined period of time—let’s say your app runs for one hour—you can get a defined duration Spot of one hour, you’ll get a great discount still and you’ll only pay for however long you use it, but you will get that resource for one whole hour, and then you’ll lose it. If that’s still too aggressive, there’s configurable options up to six hours. Again, less discount, but more stability in that resource. So, that’s the trade-off you make when you move over to Spot Instances.Jesse: So, I also want to make sure that we get to the second part of this question, which is about attributing cost to your AWS Batch workloads. According to the AWS Batch documentation, you can tag AWS Batch compute environments, jobs, job definitions, and job queues, but you can’t propagate those tags to the underlying resources that actually run those jobs. Which to me, kind of just defeats the point.Pete: Yeah. [sigh]. Hashtag AWS wishlist here. You know, again, continuing to expand out tagging support for things that don’t support it. I know we’ve seen kind of weird inconsistencies, and just even, like, tagging ECS jobs and where you have to tag them for they’re to apply.So, I know it’s a hard problem, but obviously, it’s something that should be continually worked out on because, yeah, if you’re trying to attribute these costs, you’re left with the only option to run them in separate Amazon accounts, which solves this problem, but again, depending on your organization, could increase just the management overhead of those. But that is the ultimate way. I mean, that is the one way to ensure 100% of costs are encapsulated to a service is to have them run in a dedicated account. The downside being is that if you have a series of different jobs running across a different, maybe, business units, then obviously that’s going to break down super quick.Jesse: Yeah, and it’s also worth calling out that if there’s any batch jobs that need to send data to different places—maybe the batch job belongs to product A, but it needs to send data to product B—there’s going to be some amount of data transfer either across regionally or across accounts in order to share that data, depending on how your organization, how your products are set up. So, keep in mind that there are potentially some minor charges that may appear with this, but ultimately, if you’re talking about the best ways to really attribute costs for your AWS Batch workloads, linked accounts is the way to go.Pete: Yeah. If you need attribution down to the penny—some of our clients absolutely do. For invoicing purposes, they need attribution for business unit down to the penny. And if you’re an organization that needs that, then the only way to get that, effectively, is segmented accounts. So, keep that in mind.Again, until Amazon comes out with the ability to get a little bit more flexible tagging, but also, too, feel free to yell at your account manager—I mean, ask them nicely. They are people, too. But, you know, let them know that you want this. Amazon builds what the customers want, and if you don’t tell them that you want it, they’re not going to prioritize it. I’m not saying if you tell them, you’re going to get it in a couple of months, but you’re never going to get it if you don’t say anything. So, definitely let people know when there’s something that doesn’t work the way you expect it to.Jesse: Absolutely.Pete: Awesome. Wow. Two questions. I feel it’s like Christmas. Except—Jesse: [laugh].Pete: —it’s Christmas in almost springtime. It’s great. Well, again, you, too, can join us by being a Friend of the Pod, which Jesse really loves that one for some reason. [laugh].Jesse: Yeah. Don’t know why, but it’s going to be stuck in my brain.Pete: Exactly. You too can be a Friend of the Pod by going to lastweekinaws.com/QA and you can send us a question. We would love to spend some time in a future episode, answering them for you.If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please go to lastweekinaws.com/review. Give it a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you hated this podcast, please go to lastweekinaws.com/review and give it a five-star rating on your podcast platform of choice and tell us why you want to be a Friend of the Pod. Thank you.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble. 

Links:Unconventional Guide to AWS Cost Management:https://www.duckbillgroup.com/resources/unconventional-guide-to-aws-cost-management/ TranscriptCorey: This episode is sponsored in part by LaunchDarkly. Take a look at what it takes to get your code into production. I’m going to just guess that it’s awful because it’s always awful. No one loves their deployment process. What if launching new features didn’t require you to do a full-on code and possibly infrastructure deploy? What if you could test on a small subset of users and then roll it back immediately if results aren’t what you expect? LaunchDarkly does exactly this. To learn more, visit launchdarkly.com and tell them Corey sent you, and watch for the wince.Pete: Hello, and welcome to the AWS Morning Brief: Fridays From the Field. I am Pete Cheslock.Jesse: I’m Jesse DeRose.Pete: We’re back again. And we’re here. We made it, Jesse.Jesse: I was worried. This was a journey. Thank you, everybody, for coming on this journey with us.Pete: It was quite an experience going through the Unconventional Guide to AWS Cost Savings. We’ve made it. I just can’t believe we’re here.Jesse: Yeah.Pete: So, what are we talking about today for the culmination of our magnum opus of cost savings optimizations?Jesse: This is a fun one. And I know I keep saying that this is my favorite about everyone, but I have to admit that this one, this topic today probably is my absolute favorite. This one I get really nerdy over. Today, we’re talking about how to predict your future and make your CFO happy. No—spoiler alert—there are not any crystal balls involved in this one. There’s no stock market conversations.This is talking about how you can use all of the different things that we’ve talked about throughout the course of this Unconventional Guide to really bring it all together into a couple ideas that will help you better understand your cloud costs, and really better understand your business, I think.Pete: Yeah. All of the things we talked about really lead up to this one, which is the clients of ours that are the most mature, who are incredibly optimized in their Amazon usage, are the ones who have adopted a majority of these specific items. They all lead to this last one, that ability to predict your future usage based on something that’s happening internally, or if a salesperson comes to you and says, “Hey, we’re about to close this deal, but I need to discount our service.” People are going to start wanting to know well, what is the cheapest that you could sell your service for and still have a positive gross margin?Jesse: Yeah. So, if you’ve done a lot of the things that we’ve talked about in the last couple episodes—I apologize, I know homework’s not the best for a podcast—but if you’ve had the opportunity to work on some of those things, you should have a ton of valuable insights into your spend. We’re talking about tagging, and showback models in particular, maybe even a chargeback model. But you can ultimately use all of this data to better understand what is your forecasted spend is going to look like with a new potential customer coming onto the platform? Or if you get into the topic that we’re going to talk about today, which is mostly unit economics, you can really understand how much can I discount my service and still make a profit, like Pete mentioned?Pete: Yeah, I mean, imagine there’s a global pandemic that happens, and it causes your usage to spike by 500% within the course of a month. How did your spend change? Do you know where it changed? And did it change in ways that you were expecting it to? Like, my databases grew by a lot, and this other thing didn’t grow by very much.Like, that would be expected. But also another thing that—a question that we actually like to ask a lot of our clients, if your sales just doubled overnight, okay would your spend change? Where are the places that are most expensive to operate your service? And again, this is kind of generic. I’ve worked in a lot of SaaS services, so I always think of sales, but just think of whether you’re using the cloud for a SaaS service that you provide and sell, like, B2C, things like that, or B2B, you still have users.They might be internal users. Well, what if your users doubled overnight? What if half the company was using your internal service and now the whole company is? How does that change your usage?Jesse: And it’s also important to think about not just your AWS usage, but all of the other services that you use that support your overall business model: things like monitoring and observability tools, logging vendors, maybe third-party sim tools. All of these are affecting your overall total infrastructure cost and are all part of this conversation. So, it’s really important to start thinking about those architecture diagrams. Remember, when we said, way, way back at the beginning of this conversation, to overlay costs on top of your architecture diagram, understanding that, understanding what parts of your product or what parts of your architecture are the most expensive will really help you understand what’s going to change?Pete: Yeah, let’s say you’ve got a six-figure bill to Datadog or one of the big log management vendors out there, but inside of that bill, is that all just evenly spread across the whole business? What if your log vendor was—the entire spend was all by one service that some developer left the debug logging enabled for? You know, you’d want a way of understanding that maybe that spend was concentrated in maybe a non-production aspect of your account. Because then again, that wouldn’t grow, right? That wouldn’t affect your growth in your sales the same way as if maybe all of your services were equally sending logs of a certain volume over.So, all of those extra services, they all add up, and we see it more and more, as more of our clients start adopting more than just Amazon services: they might be adopting a Snowflake, they might be adopting third-party services running databases running in other services, or EMR type workloads that are not on EMR, and they’re running on Qubole or things like that. There’s just a lot of these services that more and more people are consuming from that fall outside of just the AWS invoice.Jesse: And this also gets back to not just architecture diagrams, but also tagging and showback models, cost visibility, really understanding where your spend is going. And this is fantastic to understand where your spend is going, but finance is probably going to want something a little bit more than this. It’s not just about how much are we spending, or where are we spending it, and maybe it’s not even a finance question. Maybe this is a sales conversation, assuming that you’re a SaaS company. Maybe this is, as Pete mentioned before, “Hey, we want to understand where can we provide discounts? What services can we ultimately discount to negotiate getting new customers on the platform?”Pete: So, Jesse, we hear a lot of these terms a lot, and I’d love a ‘explain like I am a five-year-old’ version of it, but we hear a chargeback. And we hear showback, and honestly, I’ve never worked at those massive companies where you might implement these things, but can you give us just a real quick—for all the listeners out there, when we say showback, what does that mean? And when we say chargeback, what does that mean?Jesse: So, a showback model essentially takes all of your cloud costs, all of your total infrastructure spend, your AWS spend, all the third-party spend, and it shows every team, every product, every microservice, maybe, depending—or maybe even business unit, depending on how your organization is split up—it shows each one of those units, how much they are actually spending, how much they’re actually using these different cloud vendors. So, this is where tagging comes in super handy because if you’ve tagged all of your taggable resources, and properly attributed all of your cloud costs with tagging and linked accounts, you have a very clear idea of who’s spending what. You know very clearly, maybe 70 to 80% of your total infrastructure spend is related to one particular product because all the cost is attributed to one particular product. And maybe that’s something you didn’t know before. Maybe now you know okay, maybe that product needs to be a little bit more expensive so that we can make sure that we are making money off of it, or profiting off of it, whereas other services can be discounted because they’re not as expensive.Whereas in a chargeback model, you are ultimately not just showing each of these teams, hey, here’s how much you spent on AWS and Datadog usage and all these other vendors every month, you’re actually charging them for that usage. You’re actually pulling their cloud costs from their budget.Pete: Yeah. They might actually have a budget of money. It’s all—if you want to really explain like I’m five, it’d be like, I give my child their—they get $1 for all of the tasks that they do throughout the week, I don’t actually give them the money because I usually have to subtract out their, like, Roblox spend of the week [laugh] and things like that. It’s all virtual, but at the end of the day, you know, we’re kind of virtually giving this business unit some money, and then, kind of, virtually charging them for their services within.Jesse: Yeah. And this is mature. We don’t see a lot of companies doing this. This is hard because you have to take other steps first to get here. And so this is why we harp so much on cost attribution through tagging and through linked accounts.This is why we harp so much on cost visibility and overlaying those cloud costs on your architecture diagrams to understand all of this data to lead to this point, which is understanding, where, how much is my primary product actually costing us? How much is my secondary product actually costing us? Or maybe how much is this business unit costing us in terms of total infrastructure spend?Pete: Yeah, I mean, I can kind of share my history with this at previous companies is that, again, eventually someone in the financial department is going to say, “What was our cost for Amazon?” They specifically will want to know the production cost because that figures into a term called gross margin, which you often hear at SaaS businesses. Gross margin is basically you take all the revenue that came in and you subtract away what it took to support that revenue. And mostly, that is just the Amazon bill and these other vendors, perhaps, and you end up with a percentage. And hopefully, it’s a positive percentage.It means you’re theoretically making money at a gross, I mean, obviously, before you pay salaries and all those other items, but that being kind of beside the point for now, that number, you’re probably going to get asked for. So, you wouldn’t want to give like your straight Amazon bill, like, “Oh, well, we spent $100,000 last month,” because some of that spend was probably in research and development; it was probably in a development account or a QA account. You really just want your product spent. So, at a previous company, the first step we took was break out our spend via production and development, just two criteria. Now, for us because we started with just a handful of accounts—this was before a lot of accounts were more prevalent, before organizations—before it was easy to handle a lot of accounts—we had a Prod and a Dev. Super easy. Look at Prod, look at Dev. There’s the two bills.But then as time went on, we needed to get more granular. We were running some development workloads, testing out new databases at scale in kind of a hidden dark deployed mode, in production. Well, we want to subtract that spend from there. And that requires tagging. I mean, that’s why we really harped on tagging for a couple of episodes because tagging is the only way you’re going to be able to do that.Now, we see more often a lot of our clients do maybe an account per product, or account per business unit. Those are, again, really effective ways to corral your spend to make it really easy to break it out and add it up. It’s really just trying to break it down to the most reasonable spend unit possible that you can then play around with and adjust. Mostly to go back to your CFO when they asked you, “Hey, I need to know this specific answer.” You’ve got it hopefully somewhat available.Jesse: Okay, so this is where we’re going to start talking about unit economics. And hopefully, your eyes will not glaze over. I want to make sure that—this is important, this is really actually beneficial. It’s not just a specific economic thing that you learned back in Econ 101. This is actually going to be useful and beneficial for your organization.So, unit economics describes your product in terms of revenues and costs in relation to a unit KPI—that’s where the ‘unit’ term comes from in ‘unit economics’—that tracks closely with customer demand. So, that’s a really gross definition, I know, and I apologize.Pete: You know, and we can even extend that a little bit further and give some good examples. Like, maybe if you are a website that provides eLearning services, your unit might be the number of daily active users or thousands of daily active users, right, could be a thing. That could be a unit that you’re selling. I actually worked at a SaaS company where we sold a piece of software that would run per server, and we broke our unit down to the servers—the things that we sold—down to that level.Jesse: Yeah, if you are in the airline industry, for example, your unit would probably be every passenger. How many passengers are you able to sell tickets to on every plane? What do those costs look like?Corey: If your mean time to WTF for a security alert is more than a minute, it's time to look at Lacework. Lacework will help you get your security act together for everything from compliance service configurations to container app relationships, all without the need for PhDs in AWS to write the rules. If you're building a secure business on AWS with compliance requirements, you don't really have time to choose between antivirus or firewall companies to help you secure your stack. That's why Lacework is built from the ground up for the Cloud: low effort, high visibility and detection. To learn more, visit lacework.com.Pete: And you don’t need just, like, one unit. Maybe you have one unit for your whole platform like the whole gross production spend breaks down into one specific unit, you could do that. But you could also have units at a per-service level because maybe it’s like you’re processing a lot of documents. I worked for an email archiving company, forever ago, and our unit was the amount of emails that were indexed and archived so we could figure out, we might have one customer who just didn’t generate a lot of emails, but they had tons of users. Well, one of our units was the volume of emails that we were indexing and archiving for that customer, whereas on the flip side, if maybe our spend was driven more by user count, and not document count, maybe that’s what we want our unit to be, is per user.Jesse: Yeah. It’s really important to call out that you might have a single easy-to-define unit; you might have a more complex relationship that’s weighted with a couple different factors of different components of the architecture. But ultimately, your unit KPI and how you break out your costs to support your customers will be unique to your overall business.Pete: Exactly. And this is where you’re only going to find this answer out with a lot of conversations, internally. It could come to you pretty easily, you know, just based on how your business is. But I think for a lot of folks using Amazon, especially if you’re just in a specific business unit inside of a broader business, it could be a little bit more challenging to figure out. But what you’re really trying to do is just figure out, when X changes, our spend changes, and we spend more or we spend less. Try to solve for X. That’s really what you’re trying to do.Jesse: Okay. So, now we’ve covered the unit KPI part of this conversation. Awesome. So, we’re done, Pete, right? We just take our AWS bill and then—Pete: Yeah.Jesse: —divide it by the unit and we’re done.Pete: So, easy. I’ve got my unit. I’ve got my bill. I got an iPhone that can do a calculator. Good to go.Jesse: [laugh]. Good. We’re done. Well, wait. What about if I have multiple AWS accounts? Wait, what if I have multiple different products?Pete: Yeah, that’s… I mean, I kind of calculator. I mean, I might be here all day, but…Jesse: [laugh]. I’ve got a whiteboard. We’ve got some time.Pete: Yeah, we got time. That’s a great point, though. Again, what if you do have things that are just spread all over the place? What if you’ve got two different products, two different services inside the same account? Because of course, you would. That’s a super normal thing. I’m not even saying that sarcastically. That’s a super normal thing.Jesse: Absolutely.Pete: Well, how do you handle this? How do you handle shared services?Jesse: Yeah. I mean I—Pete: We could go on for too long on that one, but these are questions you really want to start asking.Jesse: Yeah. And remember that you’re potentially going to have different unit KPIs for different products, for different business units. That’s fine. That’s expected. But make sure that you are measuring appropriately for each of those.The incoming costs, the incoming revenues, and costs for each of these isn’t going to change. That’s coming from your tagged usage and your linked accounts, but maybe the unit that you’re dividing that spend by is going to change, and that’s fine. This is where a spreadsheet comes in super, super handy. I love my Excel spreadsheets for this. Very, very easy to just bring in all of the bill data across different accounts, and really clearly attribute this spend is for the service, or the spend is for this product, or the spend is for this business unit, and then divide that by the unit that we have in question to get your actual unit KPI, to get your unit economic metric.Pete: Yeah, and this is where the superpower comes in. Once you have this number, now you can better understand and make product-level decisions. Again, whether you’re a SaaS product with a product you’re selling to external customers or building an internal tool, your product is the thing that the internal users consume. Your product decisions can now be driven by this. I mean, I have recollections of conversations with product teams, where they would talk about certain services internally, how they wanted to expand and do all the stuff with it.And I said, “Well, right now that one service represents one-third of our total spend, right? Our gross margin, that is one-third. But we looked at the users, and it’s only being used by one percent.” When you have these big numbers and saying, “Wow, the company spends a third of their money on something one percent of people use,” then maybe that’s not the place we want to be investing product decisions into. Maybe it is, but you don’t know enough to have that conversation unless you have this data.Jesse: Absolutely. I think there’s one other small caveat that we haven’t touched on that I do want to call out, and this comes back to your conversation about tagging. We have noticed that a lot of teams want to tag to a certain extent, and then start building their showback models immediately, which is great that you’ve got investment, you’ve got energy, you really want to get to that showback model, get to that chargeback model, that unit economic model space. But if your usage or cloud usage is not thoroughly tagged and accurately tagged, your resulting data is not going to be accurate either. So, we think about this in terms of a cost margin or a cost error.So, for example, if your production spend or your production usage is only 60% tagged, that means you’ve got 40% error in that data that’s coming in; your cloud spend for production has 40% error margin, which is huge.Pete: Yeah, exactly. Track your untagged spend, as well as your tagged spend. I mean, make sure you have a story for the things that are not tagged. That includes things like data transfer and things that maybe are not as taggable within AWS. That’s an important aspect of this that you’ll want to make sure you’re at least not forgetting about.Even if you can’t tag it, you don’t have a solution for it, make sure it’s in the back of your head that this is maybe not as accurate of a forecast because we’re just taking data transfer and dividing it by product versus actually looking at which product uses the most to transfer.Jesse: Yeah, and this is a tough concept, so don’t feel bad if you listen to this episode, again, don’t feel bad if you go download the Unconventional Guide from the Duckbill Group website—we’ll have the link in the [show notes 00:20:12]—this one is a tough concept because it brings in a lot of other moving parts to ultimately get at this one unifying really, really important idea. This is one that we see a lot of clients and potential clients struggle with. So, if you’re taking some time to understand this concept, you’re not alone.Pete: Exactly. This is the goal of all of the previous work, and this is something that you would measure in just a multi-year commitment in most businesses. And the larger the business is, the longer that work is going to take because it’s hard, there are a lot of moving pieces, and so many things need to be done in advance of all of this. And again, realize you’re not doing this work in a vacuum. There’s things that are moving and shifting as it’s all happening. So, don’t beat yourself up if you’re looking at this and thinking to yourself, “This is just a huge task. I’m never going to get this done.” It’s just not something that’s going to happen overnight.All right, well, hey, if you’ve enjoyed this podcast, if you’ve enjoyed this series, please go to lastweekinaws.com/reviewand give it a five-star rating on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you hated this podcast, please go to lastweekinaws.com/review give it a five-star rating, but then tell us what’s the next series you want to have if you didn’t like this one.Also, don’t forget, you can give us your feedback and any questions that we’ll be continuing to answer in future episodes lastweekinaws.com/QA. You don’t need to put your name, can be totally anonymous. Give us your question. We’d love to dive into some of those topics.And finally, you can download our Unconventional Guide, the whole PDF of everything we’ve talked about at the Duckbill Group website. We’ll include that link in our [show notes 00:21:51] and you can head over there. Thanks again.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

On this week's Stack podcast, we've got reviews for: BRZRKR #1 Boom! Studios Written by Keanu Reeves and Matt Kindt Illustrated by Ron Garney Stray Dogs #1 Image Comics Written by Tony Fleecs Art by Trish Forstner The Amazing Spider-Man #60 Marvel Written by Nick Spencer Pencils by Mark Bagley Two Moons #1 Image Comics Written by John Arcudi Art by Valerie Giangiordano Future State: House of El #1 DC Comics Written by Phillip Kennedy Johnson Art by Scott Godlewski Future State: Aquaman #2 DC Comics Written by Brandon Thomas Art by Daniel Sampere Future State: Legion of Super-Heroes #2 DC Comics Written by Brian Michael Bendis Art by Riley Rossmo Future State: Superman vs. Imperious Lex #2 DC Comics Written by Mark Russell Art by Steve Pugh Future State: Suicide Squad #2 DC Comics Written by Robbie Thompson, Jeremy Adams Art by Javier Fernandez, Fernando Pasarin Future State: Dark Detective #4 DC Comics Written by Mariko Tamaki, Joshua Williamson Art by Dan Mora, Giannis Milonogiannis Future State: Batman/Superman #2 DC Comics Written by Gene Luen Yang Art by Scott McDaniel, Ben Oliver & Steven Segovia The Department of Truth #6 Image Comics Written by James Tynion IV Art by Elsa Charretier Faith #1 BOOM! Studios Written by Jeremy Lambert Illustrated by Eleonora Carlini X-Men #18 Marvel Written by Jonathan Hickman Art by Mahmud Asrar Something is Killing the Children #15 BOOM! Studios Written by James Tynion IV Art by Werther Dell'edera Nailbiter Returns #10 Image Comics Written by Joshua Williamson Art by Mike Henderson Firefly #26 BOOM! Studios Written by Greg Pak Art by Pius Bak Crossover #4 Image Comics Written by Donny Cates Art by Geoff Shaw Skulldigger: Skeleton Boy #6 Dark Horse Comics Written by Jeff Lemire Art by Tonci Zonjic Ice Cream Man #23 Image Comics Written by W. Maxwell Prince Art by Martín Morazzo Crimson Flower #2 Dark Horse Comics Written by Matt Kindt Art by Matt Lesniewski Post Americana #3 Image Comics Story and Art by Steve Skroce You Look Like Death #6 Dark Horse Comics Written by Gerard Way Art by Shaun Simon The Scumbag #5 Image Comics Written by Rick Remender Art by Wes Craig Rain Like Hammers #2 Image Comics Written and art by Brandon Graham SUBSCRIBE ON RSS, ITUNES, ANDROID, SPOTIFY, STITCHER OR THE APP OF YOUR CHOICE. FOLLOW US ON TWITTER, AND FACEBOOK. SUPPORT OUR SHOWS ON PATREON. Full Episode Transcript Alex:                 What's up, everybody? Welcome to The Stack. I'm Alex. Justin:              I'm Justin. Pete:                I'm Pete. Alex:                 And on The Stack, we talk about a bunch of books that have come out this week, or do we? Or do we? Justin:              Way to create some intrigue. That's right. Alex:                 Because the first book that we're going to talk about is a book that doesn't come out until next week, but we're going to do a spoiler-free review of it. It is- Justin:              A preview review. Alex:                 Preview review. It is Berserker #1 from BOOM! Studios, written by none other than Keanu Reeves and Matt Kindt, illustrated by Ron Garney. Pete:                Oh, no wonder. Justin:              I've been following Keanu Reeves's comic book work for a long time, and it's great to see just a brand-new book with his name on it. Alex:                 Yeah. It was great. Pete:                That was driving me fucking crazy. I did not notice that he wrote this. Alex:                 Wait. Really? Pete:                That's hilarious. Yeah. I was like- Alex:                 You were like “Oh, it looks like Keanu Reeves in this book?” Pete:                … “Why does the guy look so much like fucking Keanu Reeves?” Oh, that's hilarious. Alex:                 Well, I mean, I got to say, I mean, who knows how much he was sitting down at his typewriter being like “Scene one. Berserker. Open on me”? But a lot of times, I feel like there are these insert-style comics that just don't work. They're star vehicles. They're trying to set up a movie, and they just … They're not comics. They're pitch sheets, and that's pretty much it. That's not what this is at all. Not only do you have Ron Garney's phenomenal art throughout- Pete:                Yeah. Justin:              I love Ron Garney, and I feel like he hasn't been doing enough stuff lately. So it's great to see his work here. Alex:                 So that's great, but also you got Matt Kindt, who knows his way around an intrigue storyline, a sci-fi storyline. Again, we're going to skirt spoilers but not get into any here. But even though the main character is clearly Keanu Reeves, this is a really interesting sci-fi story. It's a great action story. A lot of times, they just step back and let Ron Garney do his thing. I was very surprised and very impressed by this book. Justin:              Yeah. It's one of those books that when you're reading the first bit of it, it's like “I see what this is,” and then by the end you're like “I was completely wrong. It's totally different, and I am excited by where it landed.” Alex:                 Pete? Pete:                Yeah. I mean, I've been reminded numerous times not to give away anything, but man, that ending. Am I right? Oh, shit. No, but yeah. The art and action is phenomenal. This is definitely in my wheelhouse, less dialogue, more action. Come on. Alex:                 It's really good stuff. I mean, this is already a huge selling comic book. I think they sold 600,000 copies, making it the best-selling original property comic book in like five years or a decade or something like that. I'm forgetting what the exact stat is. Pete:                Wait. It hasn't come out yet. What are you even talking about? Alex:                 Well, the way comics book work, Pete, is that people pre-order them through their comic book shops in order to guarantee that they're going to be there. So that's what they've been doing. So they sold that many copies to comic book shops. So obviously, big deal. People are really excited. The thing that I think is not a happy accident, but happy surprise about it, is that they're going to get what they paid for. They're going to get a good, very cool comic book. So I'm excited for everybody to check it out when it hits stands next week. Justin:              Exactly. Next week. If you love The Lake House, you're going to love Berserker. Alex:                 I'm sending that directly to BOOM! Studios. That's their pull quote. Justin:              Two great Keanu [crosstalk 00:03:36]. Pete:                I don't know if I've seen that, but okay. Justin:              It's not a spoiler when I say the mail is in the mailbox with this comic. Alex:                 Hold on. Hold on. Let me try this. Pete:                Oh, my god. Alex:                 If you love Always Be My Maybe, check out Berserker #1 from BOOM! Studios. Pete:                Wow. Wow. Justin:              The comic book club bump is coming for Berserker right now. Alex:                 Has he done any other movies, Keanu Reeves? Justin:              Keanu Reeves? I can't think of any. Pete:                A ton. A ton of movies. Justin:              Well, there was Bill and Ted's Excellent Lake House. Pete:                Right. Alex:                 Bill and Ted's Excellent Always Be My Maybe. Justin:              Yep. There's that. I think that's the whole thing. Alex:                 I think that's it. Anyway, this book is great. Definitely pick it up if you haven't, or pre-order it if you haven't already. Next up, here's a book that's actually out this week, Stray Dogs #1 from Image Comics, written by Tony Fleecs, art by Trish Forstner. So this is about, as you can tell from the title, it's not like stray … I honestly thought, because it was an Image book and it was called Stray Dogs, and it's like “What's up? We're a bunch of criminals called the Stray Dogs.” No. It's literally stray dogs. There's still a crime element. There's still a mystery element, but I was surprised about this. I'm curious to hear what Pete thought in particular. Justin:              Yes. Pete:                All right. So first- Justin:              Because he's a cat guy. He's a cat guy. So- Pete:                Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. But I saw that cover, and I was like “Oh, this is going to fucking break my heart,” and it did. It's got some feels in this thing, and I was really impressed with the story. I thought maybe it was just going to be cute dogs, which would have been fine, but yeah. I thought it really ended well. It sets up this whole arc. I'm impressed with this, and I can't wait for more. I'm really on board here. Justin:              This book also surprised me, and I did … The last third of it is so good. They assemble like an Avengers: Endgame level group of mid-period Disney dogs here. This is like your Fox and the Hounds, your 101 Dalmatians, your Lady and the Tramps. They're all here, and I don't think we want to spoil it, maybe, but I think there's going to be some bad dogs in here. There's going to be some good girls and some bad dogs. Pete:                Oh, my god. Love it. Alex:                 Yeah. Good stuff. Again, a nice surprise. Let's move on with our next book, and I'm going to tell you what it is, and then I'm going to give you a little peek behind the curtain here. Okay? So our next book, before the shouting begins, is The Amazing Spider-Man #60. Pete:                Oh, fuck you. Justin:              Oh, no. Alex:                 Hold up. Written by Nick Spencer, pencils by Mark Bagley. Now, we've been talking a lot about Amazing Spider-Man, the Last Remains storyline, this whole thing about Kindred, this villain that turns out to be Harry Osborn, who's been [inaudible 00:06:18] Spider-Man in the background. Pete:                But- Alex:                 Hold on. Let me just finish what I'm saying, and then I'm going to allow you to shout, Pete. But I think we kind of agreed that it sort of started to fizzle at a certain point. They're dragging out the Kindred reveal for too long. I've still been reading it. I've been reading each issue because I like Spider-Man and I enjoy reading it, but I haven't felt like … We don't need to talk about the same story [inaudible 00:06:43] again and again. So before I set down the stack for this week with the choices of issues, particularly Marvel, I was like “Well, let me just read and see what happens in Spider-Man,” because the cover of this is Mary Jane and Peter surrounded by the centipedes from Kindred, and I read this book, and I was like “Oh, we got to talk about this.” Justin:              Yes. Alex:                 We have to talk about this, because I want to hear Pete shout. Go ahead, Pete. Pete:                Okay. So first off, to kind of peek behind the curtain a little bit, Zalben has been pushing the envelope for how many fucking comics we talk about, and he sends out this ridiculous list that we have to read all these comics. Alex:                 Nobody is forcing you to do that. Pete:                Hey. I love reading comics, but I got a full-time job. We got other stuff going on, and he keeps pushing the number. He said “Oh, we'll cap it at 20.” Alex:                 I never said that. Pete:                Hasn't been capped at 20 in a long time. Alex:                 I never said that. Pete:                So then he gives us this giant fucking list, and then goes “Oh, two more,” and guess what one of the fucking two is. Amazing Spider-Man, and I was like “You motherfucker. Always pushing.” Justin:              This is not the shout I expected to hear, just FYI. Alex:                 Not at all. Justin:              Imagine tiny- Alex:                 [crosstalk 00:07:50]. Justin:              Imagine- Pete:                I was saying that “Oh, there has to be a reason he pushed this,” like “Oh, just these two Marvel. No big deal. We're just going to just do two Marvel because we got so many other comics,” and I knew. I knew Spider-Man had to be a fucking doozy. Otherwise, he wouldn't have fucking pushed it through, and yeah, and here we go again. Here we fucking go again. You want to open a fucking wound and fucking relive some nightmares? Well, guess what. We got fucking Mephisto, and it's going to fucking relive some god damn nightmares. Justin:              Here's the thing though, Pete. First off, let me say, imagine little Pete LePage, Petey, as we call him- Pete:                No. Justin:              … dreaming of his future as an adult, and your biggest complaint right now is that your friend is making you read too many comics? Little Petey LePage would drive his little big wheel right into a brick wall if he heard that. Alex:                 “You're telling me this is my job?” I mean, well, let's not go that far. Justin:              Well, not technically a job, but it's like- Pete:                You get paid to do a job, asshole. All right? Alex:                 That's what I'm saying. Pete:                We're not … Yeah. So I do have a job where I work and get paid, and then we go this out of the love of our hearts, and then one person keeps fucking pushing the envelope by overloading us. Justin:              I love comics. I would read more. Give me more. Alex:                 I agree, and to clarify, we said we would cap it at 50 to 75 books a week, tops. Justin:              Let's talk about this Spider-Man book, because let me see- Alex:                 No. I don't think so. Can you also give us a peek behind the curtain, Justin? Justin:              Yeah. Pete:                Yeah. Give us a peek behind the curtain, Justin. Justin:              Sorry. The only curtain I'm behind is a shower curtain, and it's sheer. It's invisible. I'm nude in front of you all, all the time. I'm [crosstalk 00:09:33]. Pete:                Gross. Justin:              Just a little imagery to preface this review. So this book though, Pete … It's got Peter and Mary Jane being as close as they've been in a decade. Pete:                Yeah, and then it does the classic bullshit where Peter leaves and then Mary Jane's got some weird shit going on with the villain. Justin:              Well, here's the thing. To your point, Alex, I actually didn't really like a lot of the lead up to the reveals here. I feel like Nick Spencer used to have a really good Spider-Man and a really good Peter Parker. It felt like it was back to the very core of the character, struggling to get by, has a bunch of roommates that he shouldn't be hanging out with, messing up all the time, and now it's like it's so sentimental. It's this sort of sanctimonious Peter Parker that we see a lot over the course of the years, but it's not the fun Peter Parker, and it's too melodramatic for me, and then by the end of it, I was excited about the reveal at the end of the book and even the stuff that Pete's talking about with the villain. At least that's interesting, because this Peter Parker's not a person I'm loving right now. Alex:                 Well, and that's the point of the book, right? I think they're taking a really long time to get around to it, but what is nice about this issue is it feels like one of those classic Ultimate Spider-Man issues that Brian Michael Bendis would do, where it's just a conversation, and in this case, it's Peter talking to Mary Jane. She's trying to help him through the stuff he's going through, and he says exactly what you're talking about, where he's like “Why is my life like this? Why am I still in this place that I'm in? What is going on here?” and by the end … Spoiler, but we've already spoiled it. The revelation is it's probably Mephisto all over again fucking with Peter Parker's life. Probably, there's no way around. If they don't loop back to One More Day at this point, I don't know what he's doing in this storyline, but that's fascinating to me, what direction they're going in. It's nerveracking, but it's fascinating. Pete:                Yeah. Well, I'm not fascinated, but I did really like the part of MJ talking about this exercise that helps you kind of work through shit, and I thought that was very cool to have a superhero kind of do a therapy exercise and be like “Hey. Therapy's okay. It's okay to talk about your feelings in a safe space and get it out and see what it feels like to say these things out loud.” I thought that was very powerful and very cool, but then you got to fucking ruin it with Mephisto shit, and it's like, either we're moving on and that bullshit happened and somehow we have to live with it and move forward, or you better fucking undo that bullshit and then we can get back to our lives. Fucking make a choice, man, because I'm sick of this shit. Alex:                 All right. Well, let's move on to Two Moons #1 from Image Comics, written by John Arcudi, art by Valerio Giangiordano. This is set in the Civil War following a soldier who starts seeing some demons or something. We're not 100 percent sure what's going on, but the art in here is terrifying and scary. Pete:                He sees the monster from Critters is what it looks like. Alex:                 But it's just somebody's head, to be clear. Justin:              Yeah. He's got a critter on his head. Pete:                Yeah. It's a critter head. Alex:                 Classic critter head. Yeah. Yeah. Justin:              You guys both sort of felt like you were saying something that you shouldn't be saying, for a second. Alex:                 I mean, in my family, when I grew up, we were never supposed to say critter head. Justin:              Yeah. Say it three times, and then you have yourself a critter head. I like this book as well. This was a good sort of scary story in a time we don't see very much, especially from this perspective. Pete:                Yeah. I mean, the art's really unbelievable. This is a very interesting story. It's also the take about the nurse getting upset about the fact that when you run out of ammunition, they'll use whatever scraps of metals they can, and then kind of her reaction is very interesting and very intense. So I think this is a really kind of interesting, original idea set in a shitty time period. Alex:                 Sure. There you go. Couldn't disagree with that. Let's move on to our Future State block, as we've been doing all the past couple of weeks, talking about everything that's come out from Future State. I'll list the books, and then we'll talk about some of our highlights. We've got House of El #1, Aquaman #2, Legion of Superheroes #2, Superman vs. Imperious Lex #2, Suicide Squad #2, Dark Detective #4, and Batman/Superman #2, and to give you a little peek behind the curtain here, it's interesting that Pete was complaining about too many titles being in our stack, because at least the past two weeks we've talked about the Future State block, Pete has read extra titles from DC and then talked about them on the show. Justin:              Yeah, and dropped them in. Alex:                 There you go. So Pete, any extra titles you want to talk about here? Pete:                No. No, but if we would like to peek behind the curtain, I think you're a piece of shit. Alex:                 All right. That's fine. Justin:              Again, here's me, nude behind a very crystal-clear sheer curtain. Alex:                 Pete, what jumped out at you? What did you like this week? Pete:                All right. Well, I liked a lot of things, but the one book I didn't want to like, but then the sappy ending kind of got me in the feels, was the House of El #1. Sometimes we get in the house of stuff. I don't know. Justin:              Yeah. You don't like houses. Pete:                Yeah. I don't like houses. I don't like the kind of historical Superman shit where everybody is talking about their logos and all the weird shit. It doesn't get me excited, but I was really impressed with this book because I read it like “Harumph. I don't want to like you,” and then it won me over. I would say one of my favorites was Batman/Superman- Justin:              Here. Wait. Can we talk about that real quick? Pete:                Sure. Sure. Justin:              Sorry. Sorry, but I loved this book. I know I feel like I've been on a Phillip Kennedy Johnson love fest, but man, this is another great book by him that is just a hundred percent fun. It's mixing a lot of the stuff he does in The Last God with a Superman-focused version of the Legion, and it reads like just a great Legion book with all these different version of Superman kin that are out there trying to just save the world and maintain their household and mix in with these sort of light fantasy elements. It's just a great book. Alex:                 Pete, what about you? You were about to call out Dark Detective, I believe. Pete:                Well, I have been enjoying that, and yes, I did love Dark Detective #4. Very intense. I love this no more shadows, like “Oh, shit. What does that mean?” Also, great backup story. I thought this was a very intense, cool Batman book. I'm very excited to see where this goes. Anybody else want to jump in on this one? Alex:                 Yeah. Sure. Was that not the one you were going to call out? I thought that's what you started saying. Pete:                No. It was Batman/Superman #2. Alex:                 Oh, okay. Sorry to put you on the spot there, but I do really like the backup. We talked about this last time, this Joshua Williamson and Giannis Milonogiannis, and they're doing basically Red Hood, but Akira, and it's super fun. I had a blast reading that. But you want to talk about Future State Batman/Superman #2? Justin:              Real quick. Alex:                 Oh, yeah. Justin:              It's very funny seeing the Red Hood hood on him, where it just goes right to the … It's just such a weird looking thing, but this has been one of the best version of Bruce Wayne that I feel like we've seen in Batman comics in a long time, this Dark Detective series. Pete:                Yeah. Yeah. It's really cool. But Batman/Superman #2, really unbelievable action. I really am loving the kind of mystery and the kind of who-done-it with this team up. I love it when Batman and Superman get along, but I also like it when they fight, and I feel like this was a really cool, great kind of fight between Superman and Batman, and I thought this was really cool. Alex:                 Yeah. It's a good book as well. For me, man, it's tough. Again, a very good week for books from Future State. All of this stuff has been really good. It's a little bit of a tie. There's one that eked it out a little bit more. Future State Superman vs. Imperious Lex #2 is kind of my number two here, written by Mark Russell, art by Steve Pugh. Super fun. Great Lois Lane in this book. As usual, just hilarious and pointed satire from Mark Russell. So really enjoyed that book, but the one for me that killed it was Aquaman #2. Justin:              A hundred percent. That was mine. Pete:                Yeah. That's what I was going to … Yeah. Alex:                 Everybody was leading up to that, written by Brandon Thomas, art by Daniel Sampere. Again, like I said with the first issue, I am not an Aquaman fan. I don't usually like an Aquaman story. This is god damn amazing, and if you didn't tune in to the first book, the first issue of the book, it was all about this confluence of oceans from the universe that former Aqualad, now Aquaman, and Aqualass, who by the end of the book, spoiler, is Aquawoman, have gotten trapped in. They get separated. Aquaman is imprisoned most of the last book and then finally finds out that Aqualass is alive at the end, and then we loop back and find out what happened with her. The action is so big. Everything that happens is so emotional and creative. I was blown away. Justin:              I agree. This book was so good. Of all the books in Future State that I would want to replace the main title going forward, it's this. I want to see these characters going forward and seeing where they go next, because it's so good. Pete:                The let go moment was so nice. Justin:              Yeah. Pete:                Yeah. I mean, I don't know how cool a water leg would be, but man, they really sold it in this book. Alex:                 It's a fish leg. It's not a water leg. It's a fish leg. Pete:                Oh, okay. My bad. Justin:              I mean, a fish leg would be much worse, because that shit … You've only got like two days max on that things. Pete:                Before it starts smelling? Alex:                 Yeah. Justin:              Yeah. Alex:                 Don't microwave it. Not in the office. That's all I'm saying. Justin:              Oh, definitely. Alex:                 That would be gross. Justin:              [crosstalk 00:19:49] case of scallop- Alex:                 All right. Let's move on and talk about some other books. Justin:              One last thing I want to shout out. Alex:                 Oh, yeah. Please. Justin:              We didn't talk about Legion of Superheroes #2. Want to shout out Riley Rossmo's art on this. I'd love to see a Legion book with Riley drawing it. Alex:                 Absolutely. Moving on, one of your favorites, Justin, The Department of Truth #6 from Image Comics, written by James Tynion IV, art by Elsa Charretier. Justin:              Oh, what an accent. Alex:                 This is a switch up of artists for the book- Pete:                Yeah. I was going to say. Alex:                 … and also a switch up of time periods, as we jump back in time and find out the origins of The Department of Truth. This is a awesome issue that continues, personally, to remind me of a vintage Vertigo book, where it'd be like five issues, take a break, show us some times passed thing, and then go forward with the ongoing story. So good. Justin:              So good. This book is doing just such a great job of fleshing out the world of the series sort of slowly and really easing into it, and this book does a great job of sort of bringing into focus in the sort of micro with the flashback story. It's sort of a double flashback. We flashback to right after the Kennedy assassination, and then flashback to Doubting Thomas and sort of the origin of rewriting the world with a new truth, and this book is one of my favorites on the stand right now. If this were a religion, I would believe in it. Alex:                 Wow. Pete:                Oh, shit. Wow. Justin:              I'm not a religious guy, but this is the closest. I'm like “I could buy this. I could buy this fully across the board.” Pete:                Wow. That is crazy. I think it's really impressive that this book can look so different from kind of book to book and still feel like a part of the same story. It's really impressive what they're pulling off here creatively, artistically. They're taking some big swings at some big ideas, and they are killing it. It's really impressive. Yeah. The paneling, the art, the way this story flows. This is a really, really impressive book that is tripping me the fuck out. Alex:                 This employs a technique that I usually hate in storytelling, but it completely works here, where they have a story in a story in a story. In this book, Lee Harvey Oswald, who in our current time is the head of The Department of Truth goes to his first day there, finds out the origin, so you have one … I think this is the reason it works is the art style changes with each level of the story, where it goes back in time, he's reading the origin of the story of The Department of Truth, and then one of the characters in the story starts telling the story to the other character, and then the art style changes again. It's just these multiple layers that feel very purposeful versus the usual accidental employment of that technique. Fantastic book. Definitely pick it up. Alex:                 Let's move on and talk about Faith #1 from BOOM! Studios, written by Jeremy Lambert, illustrated by Eleonora Carlini. This is a weird book that I was no expecting- Justin:              This is a weird book. Alex:                 … that follows Faith as she's trapped in a movie theater, and there's some Watchers watching her, strange stuff going on. What'd you guys think of this one? Pete:                Yeah. It's fantastic art. It was a little confusing because we kind of had this shadowy figure behind the main character. So I was having a hard time follow what's happening, because I was so worried about her present, in-the-movie-theater self. So it was hard to kind of let go of that and follow the story, but yeah. This is interesting. Unbelievable art. Some great action. I'm not quite sure what's happening though. Justin:              Yeah. I mean, I agree. Really expressive art, I thought was … There were so many good little horror moments, and Faith's reactions throughout are great. I don't know much about Faith in the background. I don't have faith. Alex:                 You got to have faith. Justin:              Yeah. That's the thing. Pete:                The faith, the faith, the faith. Justin:              But I believe in the comic book we just talked about before this one. So yeah. I didn't know much about the character, but it was a good read. Alex:                 Yeah. Moving on, X-Men #18 from Marvel, written by Johnathan Hickman, art by Mahmud Asrar. Give you a little peek behind the curtain. I felt like Pete would be pretty mad about Amazing Spider-Man. This one involves Laura, Wolverine, which Pete likes a lot. So I thought this would be kind of like a gimme, like balance the scales a little bit. So this is as three of the X-Men characters wander into a weird future place, as they usually do in this run of X-Men. What'd you think about this one? Justin:              The Vault. Pete:                Well, I'm curious about something. So why is she called Wolverine now? You know what I mean? I know Wolverine died for a little bit, and I know she was X-23, and that's cool, but then when they were referring to her as Wolverine, I was like “Why? What's-“ Justin:              Well, because Wolverine doesn't … He's on the moon popping something else besides claws. So he's not really … Pete:                You don't have to be an asshole when I ask a question. You could just answer it. Justin:              I mean, I think there's some truth to that. Alex:                 There's more than on person named Pete. Justin:              Wow. Pete:                Yeah. Yeah. Justin:              That's true. Pete:                Got that, and there's also more than one person named Pete LePage, but what's your fucking point? Alex:                 My point is, when I search for Pete LePage, the other one comes up. Pete:                Okay. So it's okay that she's called Wolverine is what you're saying? Alex:                 Yeah. It's fine. It's not a problem. Justin:              I like it. I like her as a character. I like her as the Wolverine. I think Logan can just be Logan now, and he can go do all of his Logan stuff. Pete:                That's cool. I just didn't know. I was like “Maybe I missed something,” like the passing of the Wolverine mantle or whatever. I love X-23. I have no problem with her being Wolverine. I was just like “Oh, they're straight just calling her Wolverine now.” Justin:              Well, I think they're both called Wolverine. I think it's just like they're both Wolverines. There's no reason to differentiate. Pete:                Then I was like “Is Wolverine a title of the fucking muscle when you going on …” I don't know. I was just wondering if maybe I'd missed something that you guys knew about, but usually, as usual, I ask you something and you just make fun of me. So all right. Alex:                 Oh, Pete. Justin:              I'm not making fun of you. We're explaining an important plot point in the X-Men universe right now that Wolverine fucks in the moon. Pete:                Cool. Cool. Alex:                 It did stand out to me too, to be totally- Justin:              The gravity's only one-sixth. So he's floating a little bit. You know what I'm talking about? Alex:                 To be totally fair, it stood out to me too as son as they called her Wolverine, and then I was like “All right. They're calling her Wolverine,” and I kind of moved on from there rather than sticking with it. This is a good story. It's crazy that they introduce this whole villain team to eliminate them in one issue, but that's classic Johnathan Hickman at this point. Justin:              Well, these guys have been around. The Vault was introduced a while ago. In fact, I feel like Hickman is oddly … He keeps sort of edging on the Vault. He's like “Look. The Vault. Watch out for them,” and then in this issue, they go in there and wreck shit. So it's weird what's happening here. I thought this issue was great. This issue reads like an annual standalone issue where they're just like “Let's have a fun mission,” and it's a great tactical mission. I love Darwin and Synch. Great. It's all so smartly done, but I think, in general, I'm like “What's the next move here with the X-Men?” and there are no clues. It's hard to read the tea leaves. Alex:                 No. It's definitely the sort of thing that I think we're going to look back at it in 15 to 30 years when Johnathan Hickman is done with this run and be like “Okay.” Pete:                Yeah. “Oh.” Alex:                 “I get it it.” Pete:                “I see now.” Yeah. Yeah, but- Justin:              “Oh, The Vault.” Pete:                The art's amazing, and the kind of thinking-man Sentinel thing was really awesome to kind of see as well. Yeah. I think it was really cool to kind of like “Oh, we're going to send you on this mission. You guys sweep the Vault,” and you're like “Okay. No big deal. How long will that take?” and then they realize a Vault is a whole fucking city. Pretty cool kind of “How are we going to do this?” moment. I don't know how any of this makes sense, but I thought it was a cool issue. Alex:                 I agree. I'm glad to hear that too, Pete, because you've been very down on the X-Men. Let's move on and talk about another James Tynion book, Something is Killing the Children #15 from BOOM! Studios, written by James Tynion IV, art by Werther Dell'Edera. Justin, I'm curious to hear from you because this is the end of the story that they've been telling for 15 issues at this point. They wrap things up. They leave things open for the next story, but that's kind of where we are, and you've been very back and forth about it. So how do you feel about this as a whole? Justin:              James Tynion's a great storyteller, but I guess I still have the same feeling where I'm like “Oh, that was the whole story.” I thought there was going to be, I guess, more of a crescendo in here. I like all of the storytelling. The art in this book is fantastic. The eating of gummy worms has never been so gross. Pete:                Oh, man. Yeah. Alex:                 Maybe you want some gummy worms, I'll tell you what. Pete:                Yeah. You're so creepy, dude. Justin:              Yeah, but you see regular worms, you're like “Yum, yum, gummy.” Alex:                 Put those in my mouth. Give me some of those sweet dirt dudes. That's what I call them. Justin:              But yeah. That's my- Pete:                I don't know. This felt like a ending that wasn't an ending. It felt like an ending that's like there is a bigger story to tell here- Justin:              For sure. Pete:                … and hopefully they will get to tell it, because this is a really great world. I've loved every single issue of this. Art's unbelievable. Love the character designs, and this cool … I feel like this is what our life is going to be like eventually. Since we're all going to be wearing masks, it's going to be just down to what does your mask say, and that's your gang affiliation or your kind of tribe, if you will. So I feel like this is a book of the future before we even know it. Alex:                 It's surprising to me because a lot of this specific issue was them talking about houses, which you've already got on record as not liking in this very podcast. Justin:              Yeah. This guy hates houses. You want to see the apartment of El, the condo of El. Pete:                Yeah. Alex:                 Nailbiter Returns #10 from Image Comics, written by Joshua Williamson, art by Mike Henderson, another surprising ending for a series here as we wrap up Nailbiter returning with some big revelations for the series. How'd you feel about this one? Pete:                I loved it. I thought this was a cool kind of end but also tease to the to-be-continued thing at the end. That was pretty neat, but I mean, you guys have kids. So you tell me. When you guys sit around the fire to tell stories, do their faces go blank like that? Is that a normal thing that happens? Justin:              Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Pete:                Oh, man. That's got to be tough. Alex:                 Every parent knows that. When you're about to have the kid in the hospital, they talk you through the birthing process. They also talk you through the fact that, hey, when you sit around a fire, kids are going to have no faces. Pete:                Oh, wow. Well, I'm glad that you had the heads up on that, because as somebody who didn't know that, that was pretty scary. Justin:              Well, that's because they're listening so hard, and so the rest of their features just fade away because the ears are really the focus. It's just using your resources. Alex:                 This book was fun. I had a blast reading it. It's definitely a big action movie versus the overall dark mystery that the first one was. Super fun, and I'm glad that they kept it to 10 issues and pretty much done, kept the story really focused. I had a good time. Pete:                Yeah. Justin:              I agree, and it really got into some dream logic dreaminess that I really appreciated throughout this whole series and in this issue as well. Pete:                Also, it's great for people who collect eyeballs, you know? Alex:                 Mm-hmm (affirmative). Justin:              Yes, which I think we all do, and great nail biting. We got some biting of nails. Alex:                 Good stuff. Pete:                Finally got some nail biting in this one. Yeah. Alex:                 Next up, Firefly #26 from BOOM! Studios, written by Greg Pak, art by Pius Bak. The last issue we called a fresh new start for Firefly. It was taking us after Serenity, the movie, moving us forward here. The cliffhanger at the end of the last issue was it looked like Wash was alive. Here, spoiler, not exactly. There's a good twist on it. I loved the twist with Wash, actually, and I think this is a great … Without spoiling exactly what happens, this is a great way of pushing the story forward, and it feels like a tried-and-true sci-fi idea that's going to pay really good dividends with the characters. I think it's neat. Justin:              It's so- Pete:                I'm going to go out … Oh, go ahead. Justin:              You go. Pete:                I was just going to say I'm going to out on a limb and just say Greg Pak is a fucking phenomenal writer. He makes great choices. I've just not yet read something from him and not been impressed by it. Even though we knew what kind of happened, the whole thing needed to be explained to us. I was really impressed. I thought this was a fun book. Amazing art. Really cool. Justin:              How is it on that limb, Pete? Because I feel like you've been out on the Pak limb for years. Pete:                Yeah. Yeah. It's just me out here. Loving the Pak. Justin:              I think your parents conceived you out on the Pak limb, and you've just been birthed there. Your parents heard about the facelessness around the fire, out on the limb, and now here you are, still living on the limb. Pete:                Nothing like limb living. Justin:              Limb living. I think it's so smart that they did a long story in the past. It was great. Greg Pak really understands the characters and really put them out there, and then to jump forward in time where we get to sort of collect them again is super fun. Well done. Alex:                 Yeah. I agree. Next up, Crossover #4 from Image Comics, written by Donny Cates, art by Geoff Shaw. In this issue, we're picking up with our adventurers who met Madman, the character, from Mike Allred and Laura Allred, last issue. He is going to help them get inside the dome that has covered Denver, I believe, if I remember correctly, and locked in a bunch of comics characters. We again get a bunch of cameos and fun stuff in this issue. We also get some shout outs to Donny Cates and, I believe, Geoff Shaw's own work as well. This is great. This is a blast to read, and even Donny Cates self inserting himself here is super fun. Justin:              I mean, it's great to see Madman in action. That guy can yo. Alex:                 Yeah. Yo, yo. Pete, you got to be happy. There is a Stay Puft Marshmallow Man in this issue. Pete:                Oh, yeah. You got to love that. I also impressed with the art here, because it has the kind of dot, kind of old-timey kind of comic book style, which is really interesting with Madman, with kind of more vibrant characters as well. It's just really cool to see them all standing in a room. So I'm glad we got that moment. The kind of torture shit freaked me out a little bit, but man, really great story. Fun stuff. Alex:                 Good stuff. Next up, Skulldigger Skeleton Boy #6 from Dark Horse Comics, written by Jeff Lemire, art by Tonci Zonjic. We've been talking about a lot of the Black Hammer books. We kind of missed this one in terms of reviewing. So I figured it was worth catching up with the last issue here. I'll tell you what. I … This is all me … forgot about Tonci Zonjic. Amazing artist. Justin:              Yeah. Great art. Alex:                 I was so happy to read this again. I was like “Oh, my god. I'm sorry I forgot you. You're so good.” Pete:                Yeah. Justin:              Yeah. It's so dynamic. It almost has a little Darwyn Cooke to it, but a little bit of just great, I don't know, Greg Capullo style action. Really good, and the story was great. I feel like the Black Hammer universe is just prime time right now. Pete:                Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I agree. The panels, the layout, the way the action flows. Really, really fun and impressive, but also some really touching moments, like the look on the kid's face. They just keep just showing the kid's face, so different in each panel in the way that it's just kind of colored. Really impressive, the way they can kind of show emotion through this still panel here. Yeah. I was just really kind of moved by this. I thought it was a really solid issue. Justin:              The last page, which is almost like an epilogue to the book, just a standalone splash page, was so emotional and great. Pete:                Yeah. Alex:                 We're not really talking about the plot here, because we didn't read the previous five. This is the last issue, but the fact that they can get across enough of the emotion and story in one issue that is the last one to people who have not read the previous five is very impressive. Pete:                Yeah. Alex:                 Next up, let's talk about it, Ice Cream Man #23- Pete:                Oh, here we go. Alex:                 … from Image Comics, written by W. Maxwell Prince, art by Martín Morazzo. I know Pete is scared of this one. Pete:                Yeah. Alex:                 Yeah? Pete:                Yeah. Alex:                 So another standalone issue of Ice Cream Man, as a lot of them are, mind you, but in this one, it's text pages interspersed with splash pages of essentially our main character, the Ice Cream Man, going on a talk show with a bunch of animals, until a snake bites the shit out of the talk show host's face. The thing that is so terrifying about this is the text pages takes place after it. So you're reading the story of the horrific things that happen to him, and you're like “Oh, we're going to see this. We're going to see this at some point. It's coming. It's coming. It's coming-“ Pete:                I was like “Don't show me. Don't. You wrote about-“ Alex:                 “… It's coming. It's going to happen,” and the entire issue, and finally they pulled the lid off, and it's great. Another incredible one-shot issue of Ice Cream Man. Not enough good things to say about this book. Justin:              I feel like W. Maxwell Prince is just sitting at home tactically trying to break down how to engineer scares in the paper and the printed medium. It's wild that he is able to continue to find new ways to stress us the fuck out. Pete:                That's what's so impressive about this is each comic is so different but has that same tension, and they've done so many different creative ways to scare the shit out of us, and you think “All right. Well, how's this going to stack up? It can't be as great as the last issue.” It continues to deliver. Unbelievable, and I don't know. It seems like shots fired at Jimmy Fallon in these, but this is a crazy book that made me read, and I don't want to read, and it's still so well done I read and didn't hate it. Alex:                 It's good stuff. Moving on to Crimson Flower #2 from Dark Horse Comics, written by Matt Kindt, art by Matt Lesniewski. Pete, you seem to like this book. Pete:                Oh, my god. Alex:                 This is about a bounty hunter, I guess, who is going crazy, something like that? Pete:                Well, yeah. It's about a lot of things, but it's mainly about this person trying to get revenge, trying to find out who killed their father, I believe is what she's freaking out about, and just the fact of she's just driving angry, just chomping pills and half seeing reality, half seeing this tripped-out evil shit is really crazy but also very impressive what goes down, and then the whole fact of she's not going to do well but keeps kind of playing this trickery and then kind of reveals, throughout, she's telling a story within the story … I was just really impressed with this. Very creative. Very fun. Amazing art. Just really fun story. Justin:              Yeah. I really liked this as well. It feels like fairy tale stories. She's like a Little Red Riding Hood but who grew up to become an- Pete:                A badass. Justin:              … assassin out for revenge, who crosses over with some other dudes who are sort of giants, maybe, but also just shit-head other assassins. It's really fun. Pete:                What's awesome is it starts off and it kind of reminds me a little bit of Locke & Key, the paneling and just the different kind of character designs, but then just kind of goes off into its own completely different thing, and yeah. I just think it really worked on a lot of levels. Alex:                 Next- Justin:              That art's sort of reminiscent of … Sorry … of Black Hole. Alex:                 Oh, yeah. I can see that. Justin:              In a good way. Alex:                 Next up, Post Americana #3 from Image Comics, story and art by Steve Steve Skroce. As we've been talking about with the last couple of issues of this book, this is a satirical, post-apocalyptic tale about a guy who's kind of trying to save the world but mostly messing it up. Continues to be gross and funny in exactly the right way. I'm enjoying this book. I'm having a fun time reading it. How about you guys? Justin:              I agree. The art, I feel like, really took a step up in this issue. We get a lot of close-ups on the characters, and it really … I think the earlier issues were a little wild, and it's like cannibals fucking around. So it was a little loose. Everything really tightens up in this issue. We get a lot of back story, and I think the art mirrors that in a way that I thought was just very smart. Pete:                Yeah. I agree. I think the art is great. There's amazing action, and the story does tighten up, and things start to kind of make more sense, and we're able to kind of follow things a little bit easier, which is great, but the classic … When somebody comes to visit unannounced, you almost kill them. So you really got to be careful when you go to somebody's house, guys. Justin:              Yeah. By the way, Pete, we're coming to your house at 4:04. So put your ax down when we stop by. Pete:                Yeah. You might want to text me, because I just want to not accidentally ax you. Justin:              Ax-identally. Alex:                 Ax-identally. Thanks for [crosstalk 00:42:27] audio podcast. Justin:              It'll work in court. Pete:                Yeah. No problem. Alex:                 You Look Like Death- Justin:              Joke heard and acknowledged. Alex:                 You Look Like Death #6 from Dark Horse Comics, written by Garard Way- Pete:                You look like death. Alex:                 … art by Shaun Simon. This is a tale from the Umbrella Academy. We are wrapping it up of Klaus's time in Hollywood. It wraps back to the beginning. You had to love this, Pete, another mention of relish, your favorite topping. Pete:                Well, I don't know about that, but I do love the characters in this. Klaus is one of our favorites. So it's just very kind of interesting to kind of see it in this kind of art style, and I'm just so used to the show. It's almost weird to read the comic, but yeah. This is a really cool story, really fucked up. Spiders scare the fuck out of me. So this is kind of a nightmare, but yeah. This is just great Umbrella Academy fun. Justin:              I love relish. I love- Pete:                Really? Justin:              Yeah. Relish is one of my favs. Pete:                Have to have it on a hot dog? Or what's up? Justin:              A hundo percent. Pete:                Really? Justin:              Yeah. I'm a mustard- Pete:                Get that shit away from my dog, bro. Justin:              Mustard, relish. I'll do sweet. I'll do dill. Pete:                Oh, wow. Justin:              If you pickle anything, JT's there. If you want me to pop by, pickle something, and this book is fun too. Alex:                 Yes. It's like the pickles of comic books. Moving on to the The Scumbag #5 from Image Comics, written by Rick Remender, art by Wes Craig. Get the old … Oh, my god … Deadly Class team back together again for this issue, so a switch up of the artist, but we're still following the same old Scumbag as maybe he finally grows a little bit of a heart this issue. This is super fun. I really liked seeing Wes Craig's take on this book in particular. I enjoyed that quite a bit. Yeah. This book is a blast. It's fun to read. Justin:              It's very fun. The characters, our main characters … I love watching their relationship between the Scumbag, his handler, and the sex android who drives them around and refuses to have sex with him no matter how many times he asks. It's all very fun stuff in that sort of reverent Remender tone. Pete:                Yeah. I think what's nice is I was getting a little tired of Scumbag being a scumbag. So it's nice to see the Scumbag evolve a little bit so we can have somebody to root for in this, but man, Remender, dude. Holy shit. You think you're like “Okay. I know what this is about.” Nah. He loves the twists and turns. He loves to keep you guessing, and then when you're not ready, he'll break your heart if you're not careful, but man, guys, don't listen to magical Christmas trees that smile way too much. All right? Alex:                 Very fun bit though. Justin:              Good advice. Alex:                 Last but not least, Rain Like Hammers #2 from Image Comics, written and art by Brandon Graham. I'll tell you what. I was very surprised to find out this was an anthology with this issue. That's not what I was expecting. Justin:              Well, I feel like a lot of Brandon Graham's stuff are loose anthologies where there's some connection, there's a lot of tonal overlap and everything. I definitely like sort of the rules of the world are the same. Man, I love this book. Of any issue this week, this was the most just transporting book that I read. It's so funny. It's beautifully drawn. It's so interesting. There's just a ton of ideas at play here all the time. Great, great book. Can't recommend this highly enough. Alex:                 That's it. If you can't recommend us highly enough, then hey, support us on patreon.com/comicbookclub. Also, we do a live show every Tuesday night at 7:00 PM to Crowdcast and YouTube. iTunes, Android, Spotify, Stitcher, or the app of your choice to subscribe and listen to the show. @comicbooklive on Twitter. Comicbooklive.com for this podcast and many more. Alex:                 Until next time, we'll see you at the virtual comic book shop. Justin:              Just pull back the curtain, and we'll be right there, fully nude, as usual. The post The Stack: BRZRKR, Stray Dogs And More appeared first on Comic Book Club. Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/comicbookclub See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

QUESTIONS ABOUT MONEY? GET EXPERT ANSWERS. EMAIL US AT: ASKPETE@PETETHEPLANNER.COMThis week on the Pete the Planner Show, Pete and Damian have an amazing surprise for our show listeners! You will now be getting the full, raw, unedited podcast to hear even more Dunn-isms each week!Show Notes:Mailbag Question 1:My wife and I are both 52 and have a done a mediocre job at saving for retirement. Based on every online calculator I've used, we're falling short of our retirement goals and the goals are modest. Between our mortgage, car payments and kids' college educations, we don't have much left each month. What do you tell people who are scraping by now and headed toward a not-so-great retirement?”Damian: You may have to shift your idea of what retirement looks like. The things you may have envisioned are likely going to have to change a bit.Pete: When people look at retirement shortfalls, they come to the conclusion “I don't have a lot of money.” Change that lens; instead of focusing on not having a lot, focus on eliminating the obligations which make retirement seem impossible. Pete's StoryTime:“When the pandemic and recession hit, we volunteered our services to the city of Indianapolis to be able to help people who had been suffering. This guy and his wife were about 50 years old. She was staying at home, not working. He was in the hospitality industry. Last year was his best year ever, bringing in $130,000. This year, he will have made $65,000. They're only going in the hole to the tune of $750 per month. They're renters and want to buy a home, while staying in their good school district. They've saved a bit of a downpayment, and want to buy a $225,000 home. …. They had saved $100K as a downpayment and have $50K in an emergency fund. They don't feel great about what they have saved for retirement …but they have about $250K saved for retirement. They want to stop renting, but they can't afford a new house in their neighborhood, even with that downpayment. It's a remarkable problem, their perspective. Is this not one of the most unusual crises you've ever heard of?“Damian: They must have been pretty disciplined prior to this year. They've got decisions to make, with younger kids still in school. “How much are they going to want to contribute to their kids' education?” Some of that savings could need to be redistributed to other areas on their life.Pete: It's fascinating; they've got four goals, but only three of them are possible. I hate to say this, but ‘college' is at the complete end of the list here.  NO MORE SEGMENTS! There's so much more in the full show!

Build a website in just 5 days (even if you're not techie) at www.free5daywebsitechallenge.com Learn how to market yourself online without ads, algorithms or spending all your time on social media at www.howtomarketyourselfonline.com Learn how to get your first web design client at www.startafreelancewebdesignbiz.com Leave a Review! Pete McPherson & I immediately connected on our journey away from “The American Dream” and that’s why I’m so excited for you to listen in today. Pete is the founder of Do You Even Blog? An award-winning blog, podcast, and YouTube channel dedicated to helping creators build impactful and profitable online businesses. Upon meeting Pete, I immediately resonated with his journey out of corporate and his struggle to make his side-hustle succeed. We both gave up the idea that we were supposed to get day-jobs, work our way up, and make a lot of money -- with the price being all of our freedom. Today, we’re going to talk about Pete’s struggles, failures, and everything he overcame in order to finally find success in this industry and how others can do the same. Let’s get into it! Pete and I talk about: Pete’s journey from being a CPA/Accountant to a full-time podcaster and blogger How Pete’s road to success came from trying again and again...and again Pete’s effective advice on growing your email list The important question you should ask yourself about your dream business Pete’s advice for those struggling to get traction in their side hustle The belief Pete had to change about himself to get where he is today My favorite quotes from Pete: “It's not the fancy website. It's not the fancy microphones that we paid $400 for. It's not the super complicated outreach pitch emails that we scripted word for word it's us being humans, building real relationships and having experience. You have to have that part experience to understand your audience and your offer” “something that I think really only comes from experience and launching products and failing, trying to sell services and failing, trying to grow a blog, traffic downloads, email lists and failing is enough experience to get clarity.” “Keep an open mind and always keep an eye out for what is working in addition to the like, okay, that didn't work. Why not? Or that didn't work time for the next thing.” “There is no one path for everyone. There's just not, there might be some that are fairly similar, but it's not exactly the same. And so it takes time to figure out your path.” [fusebox_transcript] Bio: Pete McPherson is the founder of Do You Even Blog, an award-winning blog, podcast, and YouTube channel dedicated to helping creators build impactful (and profitable) businesses on the internet. He has interviewed some of the top entrepreneurs and creators in the world, including Matt Mullenweg, Neil Patel, John Lee Dumas, Brittney Muller, Glen Allsopp, and many more. He’s also the CEO of Online Impact, a private membership community of high-impact bloggers & podcasters. Resources Mentioned: SEO freebie Podcast Launch Checklist Connect with Pete: Do You Even Blog? Pete's YouTube Pete's Twitter Pete's Instagram

It’s that time of year as college students start or return to school. They may think they know it all, but really know nothing. How many students does it take to change a lightbulb or turn the heat on? It’s time to grow up in the real world! Today’s guest is Peter Tverdov of Tverdov Housing. Although student rentals are management intensive, Peter actually enjoys dealing with students. It’s prepared him to take on other types of tenants to diversify and grow his business.  You’ll Learn... [02:18] Rutgers University: Becoming a landlord in New Brunswick and loving it. [02:53] Student Housing Side Hustle: Accumulate more and manage them for others. [03:24] Hindsight is 20/20 in 2020: Bad timing to start business and quit day job to grow. [04:41] Decision to deal with students and student housing led to diverse tenant groups. [06:15] Peter’s Portfolio: 65-70% student rentals, 15-20% low-income families, 5-10% middle-class/workforce housing. [08:10] Onboarding Students: Educate and set expectations to limit excuses later on. [11:00] Happy Tenant, Happy Owner: Second largest lead generator is tenant referrals. [12:57] Broken Windows Theory: Dumpy/dilapidated areas attract crime and trouble. [13:45] Tverdov Renovation Consultants: Improve properties to attract better tenants. [14:47] Avoid or Acquired Taste? Riches are in the niches as a student rentals landlord. [16:33] Other Options? Rules/laws for room rentals, individual leases, boarding houses. [20:55] Responsibility: How to be landlords and hold each other accountable. [23:35] What’s next for Tverdov Housing? Track KPIs, achieve goals, and grow doors. Tweetables Landlord Business: Slowly and discreetly acquire more properties, get your hands dirty, and deal with people. “In business, it’s good to diversify.” “Managing student rentals, it really gets you battle-tested for managing other tenants.” “We’re not for everybody. We’re fair, but firm.” Resources Tverdov Housing Tverdov Housing on Instagram DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow Hackers, to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change the perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. All right, today's guests, I'm hanging out with Pete. I’m going to see if I can say your last name right, Tverdov. And I'm going to unmute you so you can actually respond to that. Did I say it right? Pete: That was awesome. Pete Tverdov of Tverdov Housing. Pete, before we get into the topic, I want to introduce you, have you introduce yourself a little bit, but we’re going to be talking about student rental properties and the title is The Cash flow and Chaos of managing student rental properties. That sounds kind of fun. Let's get into the cash flow and chaos after we hear a little bit about your background, how did you get into this, and tell everybody who's listening about Pete. Pete: Sure. Happy to be on the show, thanks for having me. I got into it, my wife and I moved back to the Central Jersey area about six years ago and in the process of moving back we were looking to buy a multi-family, live in one unit, and it brought us to New Brunswick, where Rutgers University is. We both went to school there, we both played sports there, became a landlord, and really enjoyed the process of becoming a landlord. As I wanted to try to accumulate more rentals, I had the idea to begin managing for the people as it's something I really enjoyed doing. I enjoyed just getting your hands dirty and dealing with people. I started to do that on the side a little bit in that neighborhood, very slowly, very discreetly, and then little by little, I was just nibbling and getting more people under management because I was doing a pretty good job. About a year ago, it grew into a large enough business where I was at a crossroads with my regular job. I said you know what? I feel pretty good about this. I'm just going to dive in and really try to grow my business. That has been a bit rocky because I did that officially in January. I say rocky because of Coronavirus. The business has been good. It's been fun. I enjoy being an entrepreneur. I enjoy trying to grow the business each day and I'm happy to be here. Jason: Yes. Looking back, hindsight being 20/20, pun intended, so here in 2020, would you have chosen, if knowing that this would all happen to start your business, would you still have done it? Pete: It's such a hard question to answer because I had grown a business enough to that point where there was really no turning back. I just had a breaking point because I was working 24 hours a day. I was working in New York City. So it's just really challenging to try and juggle both really and I couldn't at that point. So was the timing the best? Definitely not. Jason: Okay, so you started getting into doing this yourself. Then you started doing it for others. At what point did you start deciding it would be a good idea to deal with students? I mean, this is your college hometown, right? It's a college town, your wife's college town, there is a college there, and it seems probably pretty obvious that you should be dealing with student housing. Were you already dealing with students with your own rentals? Pete: Yeah, that's exactly right. Every rental we owned was student housing and something I had a lot of familiarity with. For a while, I didn't want to do anything else but student rentals. About a year ago, I started to diversify that and try to pick up other tenant groups to manage, which we have, thank God, because in business it's good to diversify. But for me, anything with investing or my advice to anybody with investing is to go with what you know or the areas you know and then you branch out from there, which is what we did with the business. Again, student rentals are something we're super familiar with, super comfortable with and now we're at the point where we're happy with how much we have in the business and we're actively looking. We don't really even market too heavily to student rental landlords just because we have a sizable amount and because we know what chaos comes with managing them and how management-intensive they could be. As I said, we're trying to diversify the business. In addition to being well-known for student rentals, we want to [...] things as well. Jason: Give listeners a little bit of idea of what your portfolio looks like right now. Pete: Of our business, 65%–70% is student rentals. Another 15%–20% is lower-income families, and then the remainder is middle-class housing, workforce housing, yuppies. What's funny is managing student rentals really gets you battle-tested for managing other tenants because the other tenant groups really are a breeze. Student rentals are very management-intensive because they're 18- to 21-year-olds, so young adults. Most of them know nothing and what's worse is they think they know something which compounds the problem sometimes. I was the same way and maybe you were as well. You don't really know much when you're that age. They don't understand that they're responsible for changing light bulbs or if the heat's not working in the house, maybe it's because no one checked to see if the thermostat was even on. Stuff like that is really low hanging fruit. Jason: Yeah. Like you're saying, before anybody has kids or business or any of that, we're all experts on parenting, business, and how the world should work. I love it when my teenagers tell me how to be a better parent. I love that. That's always a really fun conversation. Everyone's an expert until they do it and then they realize they're like everybody else winging it and trying to figure out what's next. You started with the most difficult type of housing. It sounds like it was more difficult renters and tenants than anything else. It felt like it was just downhill. From there it was easier. Pete: That's right. As I said, it's just a very management-intensive group. What do I mean by that? They never signed a lease before. Some of them have never paid rent before. They've never written a check before or they don't know how to pay rent online. They don't really know what a security deposit is. They don't really know the process of getting it back. I think our business grew because we really tried to help the tenants understand the process and how it works. With students, for example—I would recommend this to anyone managing students—we usually sit down with them for 20–30 minutes and go over the lease with them, go over all the points in the lease, and set expectations upfront. We try to really limit the excuses for a tenant, like I didn't know that. What do you mean? We sat with you in person and went over that. That's one of the things. Some of the management items that I was talking about beat the properties up a little bit more so the repairs are higher and things always just mysteriously break. It was never their fault like something happens and nobody wants to admit it. I got a taste for managing other tenant groups. I realize how intense the students are and it's not a bad business to be in because, for people who own the rentals, the cash flows are higher, but with higher cash flows comes a set of their own problems. Jason: Aren't these things just common in property management in general? Like the advantage of you having a business like this is that you're almost educating these people through the process. That would work well for any new client because even if they've rented multiple places before, you have your way of doing things, they still may not want to follow things, have misinterpreted things, or they may claim they read the lease and understand it. All of these things sound like a really good baseline for how to onboard all of your renters. Pete: What I realized early on with the way I conduct business is we're not for everybody and that's because we believe in holding people accountable. One of the gentlemen who help me out hits me on the head. We're fair but firm. We're very fair. We don't try to nickel and dime people, but we're firm. The lease is the lease or the code is the code and this is what we have to do in order to ensure that the property is running smoothly, to ensure you're happy as a tenant, and to ensure the owner’s happy as a client. As a property manager, you're getting hit from both sides a lot of the time, but that's what I try to do to tenants. Honestly, we try to give as good of an effort as we can to make sure that they have a good experience because what's pretty cool about our business is the second-largest lead generator for us is tenant referrals which is awesome. That's free. That costs nothing. For that to be number two, it tells me we're doing something right, even though it feels like we're not sometimes and I want to continue that. Jason: So tenant referrals, meaning the tenants are referring the owners to your company? Pete: They're referring other tenants to our company. It makes the amount of advertising we have to spend on finding tenants less. Jason: Right. Do you feel like that's a challenge and student housing is finding people to rent the place? Pete: I must say it depends on the demographic. What's unique about Rutgers is it's split between two towns in New Jersey, New Brunswick, which has a population of 55,000 and Piscataway, which (I couldn't tell you) maybe it's 30,000 or 50,000. It's not a small town either, but it’s very old homes, especially in New Brunswick. What a lot of landlords in that area are realizing is people don't want to live in a dump anymore. They're willing to pay a little bit more. The house needs to be nicer. That's what we've done with stuff that we own. Most of the clients we have take a little bit of convincing, but after a while, they trust us to spend some money on their property because it makes it easier to rent. I went out to Rutgers, I majored in Criminal Justice. There's this thing called Broken Windows Theory and for people who don't know that it is, it's what it sounds like. When you have a dilapidated area with a bunch of broken windows, it attracts crime and attracts people looking to get into trouble. When you have that same place and it's all cleaned up, all the windows are fixed, the outsides painted, and the sidewalks are redone, the crime statistically usually has gone away. We took that same theory with housing. So if you have a dump, you're likely going to attract tenants who don't care about the place. They're just going to beat it up even more. If you have a nice place, you usually attract nice tenants, and even with the students being as management-intensive as they are, we've found that to be true. What's interesting is within the property management business—I did this right in the middle of the pandemic—I said screw it. I’m going to start another business. So we created what's called Tverdov Renovation Consultants. We basically do project management for our clients. We tell them, listen, we could help you rehab, bathrooms, kitchens, additions, roof siding, blah-blah-blah. We have a whole portfolio of the work we've done on Instagram. That's been good for the owners because it makes their property easier to rent. They get more rent and make our property worth more. We're happy because we've found a better tenant. The town's happy because we've improved the property and it's really a win and win across the board. It's just a matter of convincing other owners who are stuck in having lipstick on a pig or they don't want to spend a lot of money on properties and now we're at the point where I don't really want clients like that. I want clients who want to have a well-run property. Jason: Got it. Do you feel like tenants are an acquired taste in property management? My perception as other property managers avoid dealing with student housing, with those types of tenants. They feel like they're more difficult to manage unless they feel like in their market they need to. Do you feel like you would maybe in general convince these property managers in some way that there is a benefit or an upside to focusing on a tenant or better student housing? Pete: I think if you know it and you know the area, you could do very well and we have done very well. If you don't know it, it's pretty obvious to people who don't know it. You get beat up because you don't know what you're doing. The challenging part is every school is different across the country. When tenants begin to look when the lease is run and there are a plethora of questions to answer. If I was going to invest in another state, it's a whole different set of rules if you're going to try to be a student rental landlord in that state. For me, the riches are in the niches. Again, that's what I knew and I grew it. Now we're looking at expanding into more residential options. Still single family, two to four families, small apartment buildings. That's our bread and butter. That's all we want to do. We don't do commercial. We don't do HOAs or anything like that. That's what we focus on and that's what we're trying to grow. Jason: Now, the financial upside that I've heard from some people that get into this is some have convinced owners to take a property and to rent it out the room instead of renting out the entire property to a family. They're renting it out by the room in these sorts of situations and they're able to get a lot more rent at the property by doing such. That seems to be that there would be a potential financial upside, especially if your fee structure is based on percentages or each renter rather than being just connected to a flat fee per unit, for example. Pete: Maybe it's a little off-topic. We charge a percentage base and we'll always do that. I really don't know how property managers make money doing a flat fee. I think it's tough so we'll always be a percentage-based company. Renting by the room is, you're correct, that is the way to make more money. Again, I keep saying this phrase, but management-intensive, renting by the room is even tougher for students where we put groups together. We put a bunch together last year. We had a kid from Singapore, a kid from India, a kid from New Jersey, a kid from Pennsylvania and they don't know each other. When you're renting by the room, it's even worse because now you almost have four tenants, not one tenant, or six tenants, or however many people you're putting in a house. That creates its own set of problems. Again, this is based on jurisdiction. You cannot do individual leases because that would be considered a boarding house unless it's a licensed boarding house, you really shouldn't be doing that. We don't do that, so we had to rent by the room. We put them all on one lease. We say, listen, you're all legally responsible for damage in the common areas, and so on and so forth. It's challenging. What's funny, though, is I actually want to try to add a boarding house to manage because we get a lot of people just looking for a room. Just looking for a place to live, not just an apartment or a studio. We get a lot of inquiries like, hey, do you have a room? Jason: Is this boarding house law something that is common in just your state? I haven't heard from this, but it makes sense. Is this in other states as well? Pete: I'm just speaking about New Jersey. Jason: Interesting. It's something to those listening if they haven't dabbled in student housing or they're thinking of renting by the room or something like that, they probably should check with their local laws to make sure whether or not there's any sort of rules against doing such. In New Jersey, what does it take to become a boarding house then or to set one of those up? Is it on an individual property basis or is it a licensing sort of deal as a property manager? Pete: You need to have (they call it) a rooming house or a boarding house, but you need to have a license displayed in the property. I've been in enough of them. It's pretty obvious if it's a boarding house or rooming house because there'll be a kitchen with a bunch of labels on each cabinet. Like, this is John's cabinet, this is Max's cabinet, this is Pete's cabinet, and there's a common bathroom or two. Then all the other doors are just shut with locks on it. If you can imagine, that's what they look like and then they'll have a big license in the hallway or stairwell that'll say this is a New Jersey-licensed rooming house or boarding house. That's how they work. But again, those are challenging. Jason: Do you find in those situations you end up sort of having to play parent between roommates? Pete: Yes and no. We had to do it last year with a group of girls we put together. It was a little aggravating and a lot of girl drama. I stepped in and I spoke with them and tried to give them some words of wisdom. Most of the time, what we do with student rentals, I don't care how many kids are living in the house. It's one tenant and I explain to them you're all jointly responsible for rent and all the lease obligations. So it doesn't matter how many people are in the house. At the end of the day, you guys are all responsible. The other thing is we manage nearly 400 students. Some of these are very nice people, but we can't talk to 400 people. It's just not possible. What we do is we make a house manager or captain, or house mom, dad, whatever you want to call it and that's the person we speak with now regarding any tenant issues. We usually recommend somebody else in the house be responsible for submitting rent. So rent is submitted in one payment. Someone else is responsible for utilities. What it teaches these guys is responsibility, how to be accountable, and hold their roommates accountable. In theory, what's cool is we are actually teaching them how to be landlords because they have to make sure rent is collected. Something's broken, they have to find out who did this. Now, I have to tell Pete or for repairs to be made, coordinate with them to schedule it. That's why I said earlier, we're not for everybody because somebody who needs their hands held or mommy and daddy to wipe their mouth, we're not for you and that's okay. Our system usually winds up attracting tenants who are a bit more mature, a bit more independent and if they're not, they get there by the time that they're done with us. Jason: Right, I like it. You’re part of their educational process of the real world. That might be a good selling point for getting tenants. We'll make your kid actually grow up. I hope you're excited about that. I'm serious. I'd be like, I'm going to send my kids into one of those properties, right? Pete: I might try that. Jason: It's worth a shot. Pete, I think this is really interesting. I'd be interested in those that are doing student housing when you see this posted or see this inside the DoorGrow Club Facebook group at doorgrowclub.com. I'd be interested to see other people's comments on what you're doing, what's working, and what's not working in student housing. This started as a side hustle. It's evolved into a business doing it for other people. It's now growing. What do you feel like is next for you and your business moving forward? Pete: What I start to do from watching podcasts like this is to track our KPIs, which is really cool. I love that side of the business. It's like a quarterly visit if people think of it. It helps me to understand where we should be spending money, what's working, what's not, and tweaking things. Because we're in the growth stage right now, 100 doors is cool, but there are people who are 500, 800. Those are huge, huge companies. We won't get there overnight, I understand that. The goal of my business is we want to cover three counties in New Jersey. So we're based in Central New Jersey. If anybody from New Jersey is listening to this, Central New Jersey really doesn't exist. That's the inside joke. But the three counties we cover probably have about 2.6–3 million people in them. Those are within a 30-minute radius of our office, so we're very comfortable being within a 30-minute radius of home base. The goal is just to continue to add doors under management. Single-family, 2–4 families, small apartment buildings in those areas. There are certain towns that are rental towns and certain towns that are not. What we've been doing on the marketing side, we've been working on SEO, we have our own website, we blog, we're very active on Instagram, then we do mailers, which maybe not a lot of people do. We do some cold calling, too, and just constantly trying to tweak and figure out what's working, what's not, and how we could generate more leads. On top of the property management, because in New Jersey you have to have your real estate license. So right now, me and a few people, my team are realtors. Eventually, I would like to have my own brokerage. Really rural housing is three companies, so it's realty services—we can help you buy and sell investment properties; that's all we do—we could help you manage the property, or we could help you rehab the property. We have some clients where we help them buy the property, we help them rehab the property, and then we manage the property. Then, one day when they want to sell it, we'll sell the property. That's about creating multiple income streams for our business within the same business, which I think is pretty cool. Jason: Makes sense. Cool. Pete, it's been great having you on the show. I wish you success at Tverdov Housing and for those that are listening, if you have questions about student housing or getting this, or if people listening are interested in getting a place from you or whatever your goal is, how can they get a hold of you? Pete: My website is tvdhousing.com and also my Instagram, Tverdov Housing. You could look at the last name on the DoorGrow Show. It's Tverdov Housing. We're constantly posting what we're doing on Instagram, so it's usually properties we're rehabbing, or some crazy management story, about just some crazy stuff that's happened and probably will happen in the future, stuff that we're selling, so we're very active on there. Jason: Cool. All right. Pete, thanks for coming on the show. Pete: Pleasure being on. Jason: All right. Those of you that are interested in getting into student housing or that have been dealing with student housing, I'd be really curious, like I mentioned, to see your feedback inside the DoorGrow Club Facebook group so inside the DoorGrow Club. Let us know what you find is working or not working. It sounds like a challenging thing. I think any of us that have gone to college and remember some of the crazy stuff that either we did or that we saw other people doing, recognize that could be a really challenging thing, but it's necessary. Like their student housing is a need. It'll be interesting to see how things go moving forward with COVID-19 and Coronavirus, and things shifting to online. It will be interesting. Check out the Facebook group, doorgrowclub.com. If you are interested in growing your business and your property management company, making some changes there, if you are feeling stuck, struggling, whatever, reach out to DoorGrow. Check us out at doorgrow.com We'd love to help you out. Until next time. To our mutual growth, Bye everyone. You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet, in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today’s episode on our blog at doorgrow.com. To get notified of future events and news, subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you’ve learned and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.

Jeff:Welcome to the VIP Home podcast where we talk about all things homeowners need to know. Today we're speaking with Pete and Megan from Powerhouse, which is a TV show produced with Alliant Energy. Welcome to you both.Caroline:Tell us a little bit about Powerhouse and how it started back in 1996. How did you guys get started?Pete:Well, thank you, Caroline and Jeff. It's great for Megan and myself to be with you guys today to talk about this. We're going to be coming up on 25 years for Powerhouse and Alliant Energy started this back in 1996, because it wanted really to educate its utility customers about the importance of energy conservation and safety, but also to help us save energy dollars. They started the Powerhouse program looking at energy efficiency. It's a 30 minute program that airs in six markets across the Alliant Energy service territory in the upper Midwest on Saturdays and Sundays. Megan and I are very fortunate to be hosting it for the past 24 years.Megan:I have a theater background. Pete is in broadcasting, so we kind of have different background experiences. The cool thing is, is that Pete and I have known each other almost all our lives. We grew up across the street from each other.Caroline:Wow. That is so awesome. No wonder why you guys work so well together.Pete:The number one question we get asked, because again, we know each other so well and play off of each other. They do think we're married. We're married, but not to each other. We're learning and that's the great thing about Powerhouse is that we're sharing the insight that we see in terms of helping customers be comfortable in their homes, be knowledgeable and save dollars and save energy and be more efficient when it comes to energy in the home.Megan:The interesting angle that Alliant has chosen to take it is that Pete and I are kind of speaking for the consumer. We're speaking for the customer. We ask the questions that our audience would want to hear. We don't present as though we know everything. We've learned a lot over the years through this process.Caroline:At VIP HomeLink, our goal is to make the homeowner's lives easier. Although we're homeowners, we don't know everything. That's why [inaudible 00:02:05] wonderful guests like yourselves is so wonderful for us and our bran and to just share knowledge of home ownership with everyone. We like to look into homeowner horror stories, sort of those stories that no one really wants to talk about, but maybe a few years down the road, you get a good laugh out of it or you're frightened to even think of that it might happen again. Do you guys have a story like that, that you could share with us?Pete:One of our first years here at the house that I live in, one of our segments was blowing in insulation up in the attic. Oftentimes, Megan and I, we have the do it yourself projects, and I was helping with our expert to blow in insulation up in my attic. I'm maybe not the most agile or gifted in terms of home projects and I stepped off one of the joists in the attic and put my foot through the ceiling in my house as I was blowing in insulation. I did get the insulation and my attic is much better insulated, but I had to repair the ceiling in one of the bedrooms because I was a goof and slipped off the joists and put my foot through the ceiling.Jeff:You pulled the Chevy Chase from Christmas vacation where he's up there [crosstalk 00:03:10] himself and he just....Pete:Absolutely. Yeah. I did that. That's a bit of my own horror story that I did on one of our shoots.Megan:The crew and I have gotten a lot of mileage out of that through the years. There's a, sometimes they put together a blooper reel and that's kind of fun. Maybe this is just a horror story to me, but they were trying to kind of figure out what the show was going to be and looking back, Pete and I did some things that I can't believe we did. Pete was in the shower for one episode. I was in a hot tub in a bathing suit for one episode.Jeff:Got to get those ratings. I mean, it's [crosstalk 00:03:50].Megan:Oh my gosh. To me, that's a horror story. Then there was another shoot that I remember where they shipped us off to Wisconsin for a catalog shoot. We had all these products that were for sale in helping you be more energy efficient. One section was all about grilling. Well, they do these things so far in advance. I think it was February in Wisconsin and Pete and I are wearing shorts and T-shirts and trying not to breathe so you couldn't see our breath. We were freezing. That was a horror story too.Caroline:I used to intern at a magazine. We did the reverse as well so we were doing Christmas in July and everyone was in [inaudible 00:04:30]. I remember all the models being like, "This is horrible." That is a horror story in my opinion because I [inaudible 00:04:37] serve chilli. No. No. Too much.Jeff:I actually do have a horror story. We bought a condo in Hoboken, fourth floor walkup. I decided, hey, I'm just going to replace the switch. How hard can that be? I watched YouTube videos. I thought I can do this. How hard can electrical work be really watch the video. I did it. I brought my wife in for the big reveal and I turned it on and then you just see like go up the wall and just like burn all the way up. I was like, "Oh my God." Yeah. From that point on, I was not allowed to do any DIY, especially electrical work. We had to do another chandelier in the dining room. I got my very smart, downstairs neighbor who had an engineering degree. He came in and he wired it all. I was just like, "Oh God." Horror stories abound when it comes to electrical work, I can only imagine.Caroline:I feel like that was such a good segue to start talking about how somebody could start their home energy efficiency journey.Pete:We talk about insulation and over the many years of Powerhouse, doing a home energy assessment, we've had professionals that come in and do it. You can also go around your own house and do an assessment. The whole thing about is, is keeping in the wintertime, keeping the warm air in your house and in the summertime, keeping the cool air in your house. Again, not allowing vice versa. Insulation is certainly a great place to start. Attic insulation is a great way to check and make sure you do have enough insulation above you because the warm air rises. If you don't have enough insulation in your attic, that's the first place. We always say, when you do that assessment, start there. Then your walls, making sure that you have enough insulation in the walls, which may be a little bit more difficult.Pete:Again, on Powerhouse, we have a the do it yourself projects, but we also, we'll bring in the experts and the true professionals. We are not the experts. We're sharing the insight and the knowledge. That's the fun part for us. I've learned so much about taking care of our home, being comfortable, energy efficiency. It's the insulation in the walls, making sure that you have enough there even around gaskets, your plugins, making sure that those, it really starts with the insulation in your attic, your walls and in the floors.Jeff:Installation, that sounds like a professional job. What about DIY? Are there simpler things that I can do that are just easy? I run to the hardware store and do myself.Pete:Yeah. You can spend maybe 50 to 75 to a hundred dollars caulking, weatherstripping, going around and checking windows because windows obviously are the biggest source where if you've got gaps in the framing, get a caulking tube and a caulking gun and seal around the windows, weather stripping on the floors. During the wintertime, keep the warm air in from getting outside. Those are very easy things that you can do yourself. We talk about that on Powerhouse. It seems like that's one of those shows every year that we get into, as we get into the winter season.Megan:Led light bulbs. That's newer technology, and those can make such a difference. We always encourage homeowners. It's a little bit more of an investment, but it really pays itself off. What you want to do is you want to take those few lights that you use most frequently, or that are hard to reach, those pain in the neck lights and replace those because they do last much, much longer.Jeff:The technology has gotten a lot better over the past decade I'd say. The one thing about led lights in the beginning was just the look of them. They had this like hospital quality to them, very I'm in an office and it starts flicking of that florescent. Nowadays, I mean, I replaced a lot of our lights, not all of them, but a lot of them with the Phillips hue so it's all smart connected. You can adjust the very, my wife has a very specific setting that she likes the kitchen on and it's called Mrs. White or whatever. It's very customizable and the quality of the light I feel has just completely changed over the years.Pete:The LEDs, the upfront costs are much more than the old incandescent bulbs, but LEDs and the thing that we, Megan and I, have stress on Powerhouse is again, how much longer they last in terms of years for a bulb. We often talk about putting LED bulbs, just start replacing the ones that you have to replace more often that are easy access. As you said, the design has gotten much more friendlier. The lighting's much better. LED bulbs, 95% of the energy goes into the lighting with LED bulbs, which is certainly much different than the old incandescent. Only 5% of a LED is going to energy usage. That's the big thing. It's longer lasting and much, much more energy efficient with LED bulbs.Jeff:We moved into the house and we had all ... all the ceilings were kind of the cheaper ... I don't know if they were LEDs, but they were a certain type of white that, like I said, it was like a hospital flicking on all the lights. I don't know if I'm light sensitive, but it was just like, they had to go. We put them all in a box and gave it back to the builder who redid the house and then made the investment in the smart LED bulbs. Because not only is it customizable, but you can put them on timers, you can reduce your energy consumption that way and make sure at the end of the day, they turn off all the lights and all the lights are off. You don't leave the one in the basement on by accident. I thought that was a really a plus, but downside, they are expensive.Caroline:Do lights on dimmers count, like if you dim your light, does that count as energy efficient? I mean, my fiance definitely has some bulbs that are the LED, but not all, but we have every one on a dimmer.Megan:My guess would be that it would be using less energy.Pete:I would think. The one thing that you do have to make sure that when you buy LEDs, that they do allow for dimming. I mean, you go to your hardware store, you do have to make sure that they are built for dimmers.Caroline:Can we touch a little bit on appliances and energy efficient appliances and how that affects your overall efficiency?Megan:When it comes to your appliances, there are a handful that you really need to maintain well and use appropriately because they use the bulk of your energy. That would be your refrigerator, your dishwasher, and your washer and dryer. Of course, maintenance is important on all three of those things. With your refrigerator, you want to keep the temperature at 40 degrees and the freezer at zero, that's going to be an energy efficient path and still get the job done. Also, I'm going to sound like your mother for a second, but you don't want to leave the doors open. Know what you want out of the refrigerator before you go in there. It takes a lot more energy then to re cool the unit if you stand there with the doors open. Don't forget about the vent and the coils down below the refrigerator. Every year, check that out and clean that out with your vacuum cleaner.Megan:Or if you have a pet, you'll want to do it more than once a year. Check that because that keeps the flow running efficiently. You also don't want to overcrowd your refrigerator. They're designed to basically be full, not jam packed because then the circulation doesn't work. When it comes to the dishwasher, there are a couple of things you can do. You can use the eco settings that are built right into the dishwashers that we buy today and only run it when it's full. Some people are in the habit of doing it every night, whether there are four cups in there or it's loaded and do wait until it's full because you're going to use not only less energy, but you're going to use less water. Another tip is to put it on the air-dry setting. That's going to save you energy too and rinse your dishes off.Megan:Even though the new dishwashers can sense how dirty your dishes are, but do yourself a favor and rinse them off because you're going to get a cleaner wash and it's going to require less energy to do that. To the point that I made about the dishwasher, you also want to take into account when it comes to your washer and dryer. Do full loads. Doing a couple shirts at a time is not going to save you any energy at all. Wait until you have an appropriate load and also use cold water. It'll get your clothes just as clean. Make sure that you clean out not only your lint catch, but also your dryer vent too. That can cause big problems. If you have anyone who is ill in your house, of course, you want to make sure that you put it on this sterilize setting.Pete:In normal times, we talk about washing with cold water, but if you do know that you've got some sick people in your home, in that instance, we do recommend washing with hot water during that time. Megan mentioned cleaning that lint filter in your dryer, but also the duct coming out of it. One of our viewers reached out to us after one of the shows we did and said that he got out his vac and cleaned up the vent coming out of his dryer. It was like a new dryer he said, because it actually dried the clothes much more efficiently. One of the common things that we talk about with your furnaces is changing that filter vent once a month. Most people don't. It's about making sure your furnace is running efficiently and if you've got a dirty filter, it's not going to run efficiently and you're going to use more energy and you're going to use more dollars to run that furnace.Pete:That's one of those things that I always stress. Keep track on your phone, hey it's time the first of the month to change my furnace filter. The other thing that we also recommend is having a service plan. Have your heating and cooling system checked once a year. That's a well worth it 50 to a hundred dollars service call, but to make sure that your furnace, that your air conditioner is running efficiently, again, we'll save over the years, save energy dollars for you and your home.Jeff:It's interesting you say that. VIP HomeLink is an app, and it's basically for people who they have a home, they want to stay on top of these things, but we all know it's easier said than done. You say, "Oh, I'm going to do this." Then life gets in the way. The app is there to actually send you reminders. You put the information in on exactly what your HVAC system is. You can log in your what filter you need, and it'll send you notifications every time you need to change the filter, every time you need it serviced. It'll actually keep you on point there, because like I said, it's one thing to say, "I'm going to do this." It's another thing to actually do it.Megan:A lot of times we tell our viewers, mark a day or think of a day on your calendar and do that monthly. Now, your app sounds luxurious, and I'll certainly look into that, but in a simple way, if you just think the first of the month, I'm going to check my filter.Pete:Probably the one thing that we've done over the years on Powerhouse is if people haven't, it's a programmable thermostat. I know on some of your other podcasts, you've had a smart home, the programmable thermostat. Maybe it's a Nest that you can control off your phone, which is so nice that you can set back at night, turn down that thermostat and save, turn it down 10 degrees. Over a year time and 10 hours, I think you can save something like 10% on your heating bill. There's really savings and again, that's what, here on Powerhouse, we're about. Saving energy, but also helping our customers and our consumers save energy dollars. Megan and I have put in more programmable thermostats over the years. That's another small investment. They can be as simple as maybe a 25 to a $50 investment. Again, you can go up and get Nest and have everything programmed off your iPhone, which is wonderful. That's significant savings in energy and energy dollars.Caroline:I know Ruth is a very smart home tech kind of guy.Jeff:I like the gadgets. When we moved in, that was the first thing I did was let's get the Nest thermostats. Let's get all the security stuff. Let's get all hooked up and you put eco mode on. It kind of just keeps it at a comfortable ... It's not blowing air on you, but Nest will remind me even when to change my HVAC filter, which I didn't know when I bought it. I mean, it's an amazing device.Pete:It really is. Again, I think that's one of the other things here on Powerhouse that Megan and I are very fortunate is to learn about the new technology all around our house. We've done shows on things in terms of reminders with a smart home, to change the filter, to setback your water heater. Some people might be away for a while and they can set back that. It is amazing the technology, the changes that we've seen over the past 24 years of Powerhouse. It all comes back again to helping that homeowner be more comfortable saving energy and saving energy dollars.Megan:Right now it's, we're approaching summer and here in the Midwest, it's really, really hot. That's another thing. If you can program that with your phone, program your air conditioning. You don't have to have it run all day with a programmable thermostat. You can set that to kick in before you get home from work, before you get back from vacation. One of the things that you can do to maintain your air conditioner is to clean it off. We had an episode where I got to do that, and I had no idea that I could do that myself. Of course, I had a professional walk me through it. You just go outside and you have your air conditioner, make sure that it's turned off at the electrical panel.Megan:Then you take your garden hose and you spray it all the debris off the outside and inside the compressor, spray the fins on the inside carefully, starting at the top down so you don't force any debris in there. That's something that you can do that's really, really simple. Another thing is to make sure that you've got airflow around your air conditioning compressor. A lot of people have landscaping and things like that because they want to hide it. Well make sure you keep it trimmed away so you have about a foot, at least a foot around there for circulation.Jeff:I thought I read that it's not a good idea to put a cover on an air conditioner because it can create mold problems or mildew or something like that. Dumb air conditioners, you can go and you can cover it with like an air conditioner cover, which they sell. I assume there's a need and a reason for that, but then I also read you don't want to cover it.Pete:You just got to make sure again, debris and everything's clear. To me that would be the benefit of having it covered, but then you also have to check to see if there's anything that may have crawled up or may have gotten on the fans. Just be aware of that.Jeff:Some resident chipmunks in there.Pete:Sure.Jeff:I did have a dryer vent [inaudible 00:18:54]. I think somebody moved the dryer and it popped out of the wall, but it's so big that we couldn't see behind it. You don't want to scratch the floors and all that. We only knew something was wrong because we'd run the dryer and then it would get really humid and the hallway started fogging up and it turned out that somebody must've moved it and it popped out off the wall. All the wet steam was basically not going where it should. It's just going into the room and we have a small room. That was an issue. We called the professional.Jeff:They came over and charged me four or five hundred bucks to really ... I mean, I was like, "Oh my God, is that really necessary? Can I not do this myself?" He had a whole thing, it goes all the way up to the roof, I guess. He had to put this thing together and clean the whole thing because I guess dryer vents are a big source of fires. There's something like 15,000 fires a year, the NFPA says are caused by dryer vents. It's a real problem. You got to stay up on top of it or else you can put your family at risk.Pete:I think that's a good point. Megan was mentioning cleaning the coils on your refrigerator. I mean, you don't need to do that, but once a year, but again, making sure that that vent is connected properly. That it is again, blowing that hot air and getting it out of your home. Making sure that the vent is clear there and then go on outside where that vent actually vents to the outside, making sure that's clean out there. I just last weekend went and checked mine. I wanted to make sure that I didn't have any issue, but you're right. A dryer vent fires, I hate to say, can be more common than you think, but a little bit of maintenance can help save from a fire. Also, just the overall, again, the efficiency of your dryer operating.Megan:Speaking of vents, I'm going to reverse the season, but if you have a gas fireplace, they vent outside. I know it's important to make sure that they are covered and that when you're not using it, the six months that you're not utilizing it, things can get in there. Animals can get in there. Debris, all of that kind of stuff so in reverse, that's something that you want to make sure that you check out and have a professional look at. Always. We always recommend a seasonal tune up on those appliances, on your air conditioner, as well as your fireplaces and your furnace. That's another vent issue, right?Jeff:I have a gas fireplace. That is definitely now on the top of my list because you know what? I was outside and I was trying to find the dryer vent exhaust, and the guy said it was on the roof. Then there's another vent. I was like, "What is this?" It's the gas fireplace vent. Now I know.Caroline:My parents had a horror story. They were using, I guess their fireplace once. I don't know. [inaudible 00:21:45] not really sure. Then one day there was this squirrel in the bedroom because I guess the fireplace vent wasn't closed all the way. It was just start of fall into winter. There was just a squirrel in the house. If that doesn't count as a horror story, I don't know what does.Jeff:A squirrel in the house counts as a horror story. I've had that in that apartment that I told you about in Hoboken. I had a squirrel. I was home and I walked into one room and my dogs are there and they just start going bananas. I go in the other room and the squirrel had come in the bathroom and walked into the bedroom and the dogs discovered that. It was just going around in a circle, just like on the ceiling. I literally just closed the door and then freaked out. Then I was like, "Okay, I got to do this. I'm not going to trap an animal right now at this point in time." I just opened the window and left. Then I came back like four hours later, just hoping it was gone. Thank God, it was gone, but not after peeing all over my head.Megan:I think I'd rather have a squirrel than bats.Pete:On Powerhouse, again, we've had episodes again, where chimney sweeps, the importance of making sure your chimney is clean and again, having a professional come out and clean your chimney. We've had episodes where they talked about the chimney sweep, talked about different animals that have been found and maybe have been dead there. That also takes me over to cleaning your ducts, your duct work in your house, occasionally is a good thing to do. If you have a lot of pets, it is worthwhile, but again, make sure your duct work is cleaned. It's about efficiency and making sure again, your appliances are operating efficiently. Just like we know with your car, you have an oil change and a checkup with your car. You need to have a checkup of your house system to making sure that it's operating properly and efficiently. Cleaning your ducts, D-U-C-T-S, and making sure that again, that it's functioning efficiently.Caroline:These are amazing tips. We were talking about outside home efficiency so can we just touch a little bit more kind of beyond the AC unit or whatever the real term is for that, and just kind of touch base on some other outdoor efficiencies that would help along your journey?Megan:Well, I think with landscaping, this goes back to the air conditioner, energy.gov says that you can save up to 50% of your energy if you shelter your air conditioner. Shade it with a bush, a tree, of course, distanced. If you think about it, we run more efficiently when we've got a little bit of shade when the heat is pouring down on us. Your air conditioner is no different. Call a professional, make sure that everything is operating smoothly and I will just reiterate what Pete said. The system of your house is designed to be efficient and all your appliances are designed to work well, but we have to do our part and take care of them as well.Pete:Plant that tree to shade your house, your overall house can make a difference. Just a little bit of shade on your house can cool the house so that the sun isn't beating down on it. That's another opportunity. Again, we've done that numerous times on Powerhouse. Come out and plant a tree and again, obviously again, think safety when you're going to plant a tree. Call to make sure you're not digging into a power line. Look up and make sure you're now also not going up into power lines above that might be up there. We always stress safety on any, do it yourself projects on Powerhouse.Caroline:People like Jeff Ruth here might take things into their own hands when they should be calling a pro.Jeff:Felled enough trees in my day that I know to call a pro.Megan:One thing that can make a real difference in your energy usage is how you plug in all of the things around your house. You think about all of the cell phone chargers that we have on the small end, but then we also have our home office. We have all kinds of little appliances, toasters, things like that, that we don't use all the time, but they are always drawing power. We call that phantom power. That phantom energy can really add up, up to 10% of your utility bill. That's huge. I have a prop for you. This is a smart strip. What this has is different plugs here that will remain on if necessary, like say your wifi router. You don't want that to go off. There's a designated place for those items, but for the things, video game systems, things like that, that you don't use all of the time, your DVD player, things like that you can put in here. Then it actually will sense when you're not using it and shut those things off.Caroline:That is an amazing product.Jeff:Yeah. We're going to definitely recommend because I need one. I'm going to find one, we're going to recommend it to the listeners and give some links out there so you can find the right one for you.Pete:With your ceiling fans during the summer, they are pushing the cool air down. You want to make sure it's spinning the right way to push down. In the winter months you want to pull the warmer air up. Remember when you're out of a room, I remind my family to turn off ceiling fans if you're not in the room.Jeff:Is that because money doesn't grow on trees?Caroline:You mentioned the right way. There's clearly a wrong way. Is the right way for cool air counterclockwise or clockwise or [crosstalk 00:27:25]?Pete:Well, again, making sure you can feel it when you turn it on. Is it pushing down? I mean, you can feel it pushing down. Make sure it's spinning that way. I'll let the listeners check themselves, okay?Caroline:Perfect. Perfect. Your website, discusses home energy assessments. What would that entail and how does a homeowner know that they're ready for such an assessment?Megan:On the Alliant Energy website, we offer an energy assessment and you enter all of your specific information in there, and it's really basically a checkup for your home. It offers recommendations of ways that you can improve and it's something that once you make those improvements, you can then watch your utility bill and see how things change after you do that. I would say every five years, you can revisit it too. If you've done any other home improvements, you can plug those in. It just kind of keeps things up to date. It's not unlike your app actually. You can keep all of that in one place as well.Jeff:We have a lot of things in common. I'm definitely excited to check out more about the Alliant Energy assessment. Can you tell us a little more about where to find that and how to, is it for just people in the service area or can anybody go and get tips there?Pete:Most utilities, again, I think around the country are offering that. I would always say to your listeners to check with your utilities for what kind of services they provide in terms of a home energy assessment. I think most energy companies today are trying to be good citizens of our Earth and are looking at ways to make sure your home is energy efficient and offering that. I would say check that. One of the things that we stress on Powerhouse is energy star rated appliances. When you're going out to look for new appliances, make sure they have that energy star on the product.Pete:Maybe you've got that second old sort of a beverage refrigerator or beer refrigerator that maybe is 20 years old, but it sure keeps those beverages cold. That's not always the best use of that old refrigerator because they really burn through energy. A fridge that's about 15, 18 years old, it might be time to look at a new refrigerator because they are so much more energy efficient here today than just 15, 20 years ago. You can save again, a lot of energy dollars that you're paying to keep those beverages cold.Megan:Another service that Alliant energy offers is a refrigerator recycling program. To Pete's point, you want to check with your utility company and see what services they offer, because you might be surprised.Caroline:Thank you for all these tips. I mean, I'm so enlightened. Knowledge is power they say.Megan:People are sheltering in place and their home a lot more. Their utility bills are creeping up because of that. With the use of the home office, kids playing video games, all kinds of things, homeschooling, using your computer more than you might have before. People are cooking a lot more. There are ways that you can use your kitchen a little bit more efficiently, and that is to scale down your appliances, especially as we're approaching summer. Grill outside. It's a common sense thing. Use your crock pot, a slow cooker, toaster oven, they use so much less energy than torquing up your oven.Megan:Also, you can scale down how you use your stove top as well. You want to make sure that you use your cookware appropriately by using the right pan size so you're not wasting energy by extra heat coming up. Also, put lids on things. That's going to speed up your cooking and it's going to use less energy too.Caroline:I know my fiance doesn't quite get the toaster oven versus the oven. I'm really trying to help him out there. It also got so warm that the toaster oven is, it seems a bit quicker, but it also doesn't make the whole place like it is outside.Jeff:I think one of the best wedding gifts that I ever got was the Breville toaster oven. It's like-Caroline:I just said that, for our wedding.Jeff:It's great. I mean, I use it every day.Megan:It's fast, quick, easy. You can watch it happen and it doesn't heat up the kitchen.Pete:Brilliant. Again, appreciate being able to, Caroline and Jeff, to talk with you guys and share tips with your listeners. As we like to say, always as we finish an episode of Powerhouse, with these tips and ideas and saving energy, we can make your house a power house.Megan:A powerhouse. Visit our website, Powerhousetv.com. There are loads of tips on there.Caroline:Thank you so much, Megan and Pete. It was so lovely to have you both. We hope that we can partner again soon. Our missions really align in that we really have a lot in common. We'd love to have you guys back on the show one day.Pete:Thank you.Megan:We would love it. Thank you.Jeff:Thanks guys. Have a good one.Caroline:Have a great day.Megan:Thanks. You too.Jeff:Bye.

In this first episode, we explore the grassroots efforts of the Minnesota for Pete group - from coffee meet-ups to a booth at the Minnesota State Fair to helping our neighbors in Iowa. More and more new people are finding our group and the schedule of local events is growing. Throughout it all, the same questions are asked: "Why Pete? What do you like about Pete?" It all becomes apparent that Pete Buttigieg really sells himself. We just need to help spread the word. Still not sure which candidate to support in the Democratic Presidential Primary? Come with me as I travel around and capture the energy on the ground for Mayor Pete Buttigieg. Join me as I meet Pete Twitter friends in person and ask them about their Pete story. Traveling for Pete will show you how everyday people are excited about Pete Buttigieg for President.When she’s not teaching Advanced ESL to adult immigrants, Sue Ann Rawlins travels around as a standby passenger from her home base in Minneapolis to meet online friends in person.

If you work in the healthcare industry you have a huge responsibility when it comes to managing sensitive patient information, whether you're a big software vendor or a single physiotherapist, everyone needs to follow the same rules, and there are some pretty serious consequences for not doing it properly.  Do you know what your obligations are and if you're doing a good job? Check this episode out to find out!   Who is Anna Johnston Anna Johnston is one of Australia's most respected experts in privacy law and practice. She has qualifications in law, public policy and management, and 26 years' experience in legal, policy and research roles.  Anna has a breadth of perspectives and a wealth of experience to dealing with privacy and data governance issues. She is the former Deputy Privacy Commissioner for NSW, so she knows the regulator's perspective and since 2004 is the Director for consulting firm “Salinger Privacy”. Anna has been called upon to provide expert testimony before various Parliamentary inquiries and the Productivity Commission, spoken at numerous conferences, and is regularly asked to comment on privacy issues in the media.   Anna holds a first class honours degree in Law, a Masters of Public Policy with honours, a Graduate Certificate in Management, a Graduate Diploma of Legal Practice, and a Bachelor of Arts, plus a number of other relevant and well regarded certificates and industry associations.  In this Episode you'll learn 2:08 - About Salinger Privacy 4:55 - Privacy Concerns in Data (with a focus on health tech) 8:15 - All about, privacy reviews, data flows, data governance, and privacy design 14:28 -AI - How does it fit ethically, legally and is policy keeping up with innovation  16:40 - AI - GDPR, challenges for AI with diagnostic decisions   20:10 - AI - Transparency, Accountability and Consent 26:00 - Legal Obligations with Data Privacy Key TakeAways When it comes to privacy law in Australia, the same laws and consequences apply to everyone dealing with healthcare information - whether they are a big institution of a single doctor. While Data Privacy breaches do happen they are often the result of lack of education and or the best intentions in mind, not so much because of malicious intent Often AI is trained on data that was collected not for the intention of training the machine, so the concept of informed consent is a tricky one  The simple “tick this box to agree” actually isn't enough and more emphasis needs to be put on clearly communicating clearly with the person who's data is being collected The expectations of patients data privacy holds the health and medical industries to the highest levels of scrutiny meaning that breaches are to be reported to the Price  Commissioners office and the patients whose privacy has been breached   Links Anna Johnston Twitter - @SalingerPrivacy  Anna Johnston LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/anna-johnston-ba188410a/ Notifiable Data Breaches Scheme - https://www.oaic.gov.au/ndb  GDPR - https://www.oaic.gov.au/privacy/guidance-and-advice/australian-entities-and-the-eu-general-data-protection-regulation/  MSIA - https://msia.com.au/  Salinger Privacy - https://www.salingerprivacy.com.au/  My Health Record (Formerly PCEHR) - https://www.myhealthrecord.gov.au/  NDIS - https://www.ndis.gov.au/  National Health and Medical Research Council - https://www.nhmrc.gov.au/    Transcript [00:00:00] Pete: With me today is Anna Johnson. Anna is one of Australia's most respected experts in Privacy Law and practice. She has qualifications in law, public policy and management and 26 years experience in legal policy and research roles. Anna has a breadth of perspectives and a wealth of experience in dealing with privacy and data governance issues. She's the former deputy privacy commissioner for New South Wales.So she really knows regulatory perspective well, and since 2004 is the director for consulting firm Salinger Privacy Anna holds a first-class honours degree in law, a masters of public policy and honors a graduate certificate in management a graduate diploma of legal practice Anna Bachelor of Arts plus a number of other relevant and well-regarded certificates and Industry associations, Anna no longer practices as a solicitor so I am allowed to tell the occasional lawyer joke apparently which is great because that's what I'll probably do Anna thanks so much for joining. [00:01:06] Anna: Thanks Peter great to be here. [00:01:07] Pete: I think we came across each other because you were doing some stuff with MSIA a before the Medical Software Industry Association. [00:01:15] Anna: Yes, I presented at their annual conference recently and then also ran a workshop about privacy by Design so for anyone in that space of Designing health-related technology how to understand the kind of the skills and strategies that will help you build privacy compliance into the design upfront rather than trying to retrofit later.  [00:01:39] Pete: Love to get into more of that detail a bit later on in the conversation too. So, you know you're well well primed for the health Tech space and it's kind of cool to have someone on the show that you know is involved in many different Industries. You're not a vendor you're another player in this kind of big space in an area that's super important these days in our area of Health Tech being data privacy and security and whatnot.So I'm super excited about this conversation. So tell me a little bit more about Salinger Privacy what you guys do and where your clients operate? [00:02:13] Anna: Sure. So well basically we do all things privacy, so we do consulting, training, and we offer resources and one of the things I love about working in the Privacy space is It's just a fascinating intersection between law ethics and Technology. There's you know, there's always something new. There's always a new technology you coming around the corner that we have to get our heads around and help our clients manage that intersection between their Legal obligations ethics customer expectations and then you know what the technology can and what the technology should be allowed to do so, we work across as I said Consulting, training, and resources and we are an Australian business, we've got clients across Australia occasionally we dip our toe into the waters of New Zealand as well. But our clients come from their quite the mix. So, quite a lot of government clients but also businesses from the big end of town, to the nonprofits and also the small and very much Tech startup space.So we have clients everywhere from the kind of you know top ASX companies down to you know, one person's got a great new tech idea with working out of their spare bedroom at the moment kind of space. [00:03:28] Pete: Nice as to how much of it do you reckon is in that Health space? [00:03:34] Anna: Yeah health is really common as probably the second biggest sector after government. Although of course, you know often government is also in the health sector. So sometimes our clients will be the health service provider. So someone directly in that Health Service provision space and they just want to make sure they're dotting their I's crossing their T's in the way that they're collecting and using their patients data, but more typically where, not so much that direct service provision, but all the organizations that use and collect and hold and store health information. So sometimes that's insurance companies for example, sometimes it's governments working in public policy organizations getting into the data analytics space so focusing particularly on you know health and disability data for example, and then there's been some really big-ticket kind of projects we've worked on. So we worked on the Privacy impact assessment on the original design for My Health Record, back when it was originally called the Personally Controlled Electronic Health Record the original setup of the National Disability Insurance Scheme. So we've been involved in privacy impact assessments very early on in those very very big-ticket government projects which touch on health and disability data in particular. [00:04:55] Pete: So in health in particular then what are some of the biggest privacy concerns you see today that the pop-up. [00:05:02] Anna: So what I think is quite interesting about the health sector and it makes it different to other sectors is the health sector is a standout but in a bad way, unfortunately, so the health sector consistently tops the list of sectors reporting notifiable data breaches in Australia.So and when we talk about a notifiable data breach we're talking about when personal information has either been lost. Subject to unauthorized access or subject to an unauthorized disclosure [00:05:33] Pete: because it was those relatively recently wasn't it that want kind of recently that was something change that meant that companies needed to be more transparent with that kind of thing. [00:05:43] Anna: Yeah absolutely so the law was changed in February 2018. To make notification of it. So if you have this kind of data breach and if it's likely to result in serious harm to one or more individuals. It's now the law in Australia that you need to notify both price commissioner's office and those affected individuals, so your patient. [00:06:03] Pete: It's not just big companies or small companies. [00:06:05] Anna: So in the health sector at covers any health service provider regardless of their size. So you might be a one-person physiotherapy business, you know or an independent Locum you uncovered by the federal privacy act. So regardless of your size all Health Service Providers are covered. Outside the health sector, there is an exemption for small businesses. But that exemption does not apply to health service providers. So the health sector is already called out for I guess expectations of a high level of privacy protection for businesses no matter their size in the health sector just because of you know, patient's expectations. And so I think one of the things that makes the health sector different is patient expectations, so it's not that the type of privacy risks or privacy issues are different for health technology, for example, technology design as for any other type of Technology design, but the difference is that patients expectations about the protection of their Health Data are much higher. There's just this sort of intuitive if it's my health information. It must be kept absolutely private, but also the consequences of privacy breaches tend to be higher when you're talking about health information compared with say, you know, The Accidental disclosure of someone's credit card details. Yeah, there are some financial risks. But those risks can be resolved, you know relatively straightforward way. I don't want to minimize those risks, but it's quite a different story in terms of the repercussions individuals can face if their health information is disclosed without Authority. So that might be it could be discrimination embarrassment implications for their employment implications for insurance and all the rest. That's what makes the challenges for people working in technology into the health sector and technology so much higher not that as I said, not that. The nature of the Privacy risks themselves are terribly different. It's just that the expectations are higher and the consequences are worse if you have a data breach. [00:08:17] Pete: So you mentioned that you guys do privacy reviews. What is a privacy review exactly? [00:08:24] Anna: So we did two different kinds so one is called a privacy impact assessment and the other is generally called a privacy audit or a privacy compliance review and the difference really is where you're at in the design process for what we're reviewing. So if you are at the design stage of a new project new technology project, for example, we get in at the design stage and do what's called a privacy impact assessment. If you want us to review something that's already up and running. So your business as usual. We basically call that a privacy audit but regardless of which one of those we doing. We ask the same kind of questions and regardless of whether its the design of the software. It might be the design of a business process. It might be the design of a paper form. It doesn't have to be, you know, a high-tech project to need this kind of review. So regardless of the nature of the project we tend to ask the same questions so you know can and should we collect this data can and should we use it for this particular purpose who can we disclose it to? How do we keep it safe? So when we look at a new project, for example, we look at two broad things one is data flows and the other is data governance. So when what I describe as data flows what we're looking at is. What personal information is being collected? How is it going to be used? Who will it be disclosed to so those three points collection use and disclosure and for each of those we then ask is this going to be appropriate meaning is it going to be lawful? So is it going to comply with the Privacy principles that govern collection use and disclosure but not just is it going to be lawful? Is it going to meet your customers? You know your patients expectations. Is it going to be proportionate to a legitimate business need and is there critically, is there a more privacy-protective way you can achieve that business objective? Yeah, so always trying to come up with you know, helping our clients come up with the most privacy-protective design of a technology of a form of whatever it is but in a way that still achieves the businesses objectives. So once we've settled those questions about authorizing the data flows and making sure that there are lawful and appropriate then we look at data governance. So we usually start with looking at transparency. So have you communicated clearly to your customers about those data flows? You know how their personal information is going to be collected used and disclosed so that they actually understand what's going to happen. You know, I talk about the no-surprises rule no one likes to be surprised what's going to happen with their data and if they have if they're going to have choices is there a really easy way for them to manage those choices? You know, is it as straightforward as a swipe left or right on the app to say yes or no to something and one thing that's really important is in terms of transparency is for organizations to separate out what we see is three different things but often bundled together. So those three things are your privacy policy a collection notice explaining. At the point of collection what it is you're doing with the person's information and a consent mechanism if you're going to rely on consent, so those three things serve three quite different purposes, but especially online. The design practices often companies will jumble the three all together into one long legalistic confusing document and then they make users just tick agree [00:11:55] Pete: Tick a box and you can and you can click the link. Click the link to go read it that you it's not down the bottom. [00:12:02] Anna: Yeah, and we know no one ever reads it, I don't even read them. So we so in terms of data governance. We look importantly transparency. And then finally we look at other data governance questions, like have your staff being trained. Do you have a clear pathway for managing any requests you get for patients to access their data or correct it do you have a clear pathway for managing privacy complaints. Do you have a data breach response plan in place to your staff know what to do in the event of a data breach, so. All of those things that of data flows and data governance form part of whether we're doing a privacy impact assessment of a new project or a privacy audit of an existing business process and again, whether its software or something else, we look at both data flows and data governance as part of our privacy review. [00:12:53] Pete: And if I think about it from my experience. Often, you know, if I'm thinking as a health Tech vendor not many of them go out with any kind of massive intention on I don't know to steal patients information or doing something cynical with the data, but I've seen in the past two, it's not about the intention of what they're going to do with it, but it's almost the perception of what's going to happen or so having that kind of review or someone outside of the business to do that sounds like a pretty sensible thing to do. [00:13:23] Anna: Yeah, absolutely and certainly my experience having worked in you know, in a regulatory role in the primes Commissioner's Office the vast majority of privacy complaints and the vast majority of privacy breaches and data breaches are not coming from a point of malicious conduct or deliberately people doing the wrong thing. It's accidents and it's oversights and its people simply not understanding what their obligations are. Understanding that there are alternative ways to design things. So absolutely. Yeah. I very very rarely see privacy breaches arising from deliberate misconduct. Yeah. It's much more coming from a place of ignorance and sometimes people trying to do the right thing, you know trying to be helpful in trying to help the clients but accidentally doing the wrong thing. [00:14:20] Pete: Yeah, that can happen in health care too. Can you just send this across to me? I really need it because of this particular situation or something. Yeah. [00:14:27] Anna: Yeah. Absolutely. [00:14:28] Pete: It seems to be the right thing to do. It's a balance. So I'm thinking about that In our world AI artificial intelligence that's a big point of discussion regarding privacy for me anyway at the moment. How well do you think policies keeping up with the rate of pace of innovation in Australia more broadly as AI is really Innovative space and there are other things going on too, how's policy keeping up. [00:14:50] Anna: I think there's a constant challenge whether it's AI or any other kind of new technology. There's always this challenge of Law and policy keeping up. The first point I'd make is that privacy laws are designed deliberately. They're drafted deliberately to be technology-neutral and format neutral. So the idea is that they shouldn't actually be always playing catch-up. We've tried to anticipate in the drafting of our privacy laws technologies that haven't even been thought of yet and our starting point with those laws is Broad framed general kind of principles and it's all about respecting humans autonomy and dignity. So sort of one answer is the law is keeping up because it's it was already anticipating new technologies and that those new technologies should be being managed Under the Umbrella of existing laws and policies. But at the same time obviously the law is constantly being challenged in terms of how workable it is in practice and certainly with artificial intelligence the ethical and legal implications are something that not just in Australia but governments around the world are grappling with right at the moment. So there are projects trying to come up with legal and ethical frameworks to cover AI here in Australia the federal department of innovation and industries been working on something there are projects in the EU there are projects in the US There's a lot of activity going on at the moment and lots of those projects around the world are focusing on things like the fairness of AI as well as transparency. So in particular in Europe some of your listeners. May have heard of the GDPR are already. So that's a privacy law in Europe that was recently reformed the general data protection regulation and one of the reforms that was introduced is what you might call a right to algorithmic transparency. So that means that's kind of the laws way of trying to ensure that algorithms developed from AI from machine learning and from AI will be fair and accountable in terms of the impact of decision making that is made or decisions made based on those algorithms. So there's kind of a right to human review of computers decisions and there are rights to ask companies to pause or stop the processing and we would call that using or disclosing someone's personal information in order to ask for an explanation of well you know, how is this algorithm? Working so why you know, why was I denied health insurance or why is it why my premiums going up and my next-door neighbors are going down for example. [00:17:49] Pete: and its even more like as we're moving to space where artificial intelligence is assisting the process of Diagnostics and looks at an image and says this patient has cancer or not. You know that having that in a black box is not you know, and then just you know, let's ask the computer and wait to see what. Is it so much ambiguity there? [00:18:12] Anna: Yeah, absolutely. And in a legal sense, I think courts will increasingly struggle with this as well. If someone is challenging a decision, so it might not be the you know, the diagnosis but maybe it's the health insurers decision based on the diagnosis. You know, we're going to pay your claim or we're not going to pay your claim or whatever it is. You know based on some kind of calculation of risk of that disease developing for example, or you know, if the algorithm can't be explained to a court if it can't be explained to a judge. How is anyone going to be able to determine whether that algorithm was working in a fair and accurate way so one of the really critical privacy principles is it's called the data quality principle or the accuracy principle and it says that each of us has the right to ensure that only accurate relevant up-to-date complete not misleading information is used in decision-making about us and that obviously. Becomes more critical, you know the rubber hits the road where the decision is going to impact us negatively. So the decision is going to be you don't get the insurance or we don't pay your claim. You don't get the job. You don't get access to housing you don't get access to credit for example, and so if you've got decisions made in a black box and no one can explain how they're made because. Yeah, there was some machine learning going on in the AI system came up with its own algorithm. How can anyone test how can a court test whether or not that decision making and the data on which it was based was, you know accurate Fair relevant up-to-date Etc. So that's certainly one big challenge for AI that the sort of the transparency and the accountability for it and I think the other Big Challenge or the other area where AI poses a challenge in terms of compliance with Privacy Law is the lawfulness of the data flows in the first place. So, you know, it's when I was talking about when we do a privacy review we're looking at the data flows meaning what personal information is collected, how it's used who it's disclosed to and in the world of AI your ability to lawfully collect use or disclose data. It's extremely hard to rely on consent as your lawful mechanism consent isn't is by no means not this by no means the only lawful mechanism. There are lots of ways under the Privacy principles that allow companies and governments to collect use and disclose personal information. But quite often consent is what organizations try to rely on but in AI it's really challenging. So if you think about do you do example AI is being used to diagnose some health conditions? Yeah, much of the data. Used in the first place to train the machine learning that will create the AI will create the algorithm that training data what we call a training data will have been collected for some other purpose. So it will have been years worth of data collecting about real hospitals being treated in real patients being treated in real hospitals. That and that becomes the training data set for the machine learning. So it's fairly likely that the patients in the past were not asked to consent but that time to sometime in the future use of their data for this quite different purpose. [00:21:56] Pete: That's something that wasn't even thought of at the time. [00:21:59] Anna: So it's not just about treating you at some point in the future a machine will use your data to train another machine to recognize patterns in data, so but even now if we started to ask patients for their consent, you know as well as us treating you in hospital today. Do you consent to your information being used for AI development in the future? How could a patient today possibly give informed consent? Because the whole point of machine learning and AI is to kind of throw all the data in the mix and just see what pops out it's not a kind of if you like old-fashioned kind of you know, he's a research by hypothesis. This is the question we're asking here's exactly how we're going to conduct the experiment. Yes. So it's not like a clinical trial whereas a patient. I know what my disease is. I'm being offered a new kind of medicine. I've been warned about the possible side effects, and I've had the chance to say yes or no AI and machine learning at based on quite different kinds of research practices, which don't usually involve. That kind of one-on-one sit-down discussion with an individual. It's based on very very large data sets to create those training data sets. It's based on historical data. And typically you don't go back and you don't have the ability to go back and ask for everyone's consent. It's very difficult to rely on patient consent as the lawful basis for health information to be collected used or disclosed for AI purposes. As I said, it's not the only possibility but quite often companies work on the assumption that consent is going to be their legal mechanism and it turns out not to be.Kind of the pragmatic solution for them, but I don't think that that's something that's particularly. Well understood yet. [00:23:52] Pete: What is the solution then like if consent isn't it? Like how does a company doing AI in health or any area I guess operate? [00:24:01] Anna: so there are other legal mechanisms and one of them is and it depends, you know, which Privacy Law you're talking about which jurisdiction you're in but there's usually some kind of research exemption and that usually, again it differs kind of from state to state and federal and Country to country but the research exemptions usually have some role for human research Ethics Committee which gets to weigh up the ethical considerations. Think about where the public interest lies and that committee usually has the power to waive the requirement for consent. There is this kind of structured way to work through thinking about those issues and the National Health and Medical Research Council has guidelines on you know how to set up a human research Ethics Committee and what a properly constituted committee looks like and all of the factors that they need to, you know, there are guidelines about how they need to reach their kind of decision making, so it's not as simple as simply you know, those the tick a box mandatory terms and conditions. That's not going to constitute a valid consent in Privacy Law. So that's just not the right legal mechanism in the most in the majority of cases for artificial intelligence kind of development.  [00:25:25] Pete: Wow so much complexity to factor in and you can going through even just the tip of the iceberg of all of that you can see a lot of work underneath it and questions and kind of vagueness that kind of speak to the reasons why the rate of innovation moves so much faster than other areas that are important like Policy. That's really interesting. Hey look so moving on what should Australian health tech software vendors be most concerned about when developing a solution today then. [00:26:01] Anna: I think first of all make sure you're thinking about both your legal obligations and your customers expectations, you know, the law is by the law. I'm talking about the Privacy principles built into Privacy Law the law tries to codify your basic ethical obligations, but it really sets the minimum kind of standard and often your customers expectations will set a higher standard than just legal compliance. So legal compliance is obviously necessary, but it really should just be considered the minimum Baseline not the entire set of things that you need to think about. I mentioned before the role of consent is in reality quite fraught so if you are relying on your patients consent to do something with their health information you absolutely need to make sure that that consent is actually going to be valid under privacy law you know, it will hold up to scrutiny. So you can't under Privacy Law. You can't say that you're relying on a patient's consent if they actually had no choice to say. No, it has to be voluntary. It has to be informed it has to be specific So it can't be included in mandatory terms and conditions, for example, an opt-out model is not consent. For example, so as I said consent is not the only legal mechanism. There are plenty of other mechanisms. But if that's the one you're relying on you need to be really careful to get that right and another thing is to make sure that your technology has been designed with privacy in mind. So we talked about this concept of privacy by design which is all about baking your privacy controls into the design of systems from. The beginning rather than trying to you know retrofit them in later and I think well what I find usually is a lot of effort goes into the cybersecurity side of things, you know, keeping out the external Bad actors and that's obviously incredibly important but our particular kind of expertise and our skill set is focused more on the internal actors so when you are whether you're designing tech your configuring it implementing it you need to think about your customers but also about your staff or your trusted users your trusted insiders. So making sure that Tech is designed so that its staff or other authorized users only see the absolute minimum amount of personal information about your customers or your patients that they really need to do their job, you know, the legislation says that you have to do this a lot of people come back and say oh, we've got a code of conduct for our employees. We make the more sign it so that's okay. The law says that that is not enough and you know case law comes basically the law that comes from Court decisions and tribunal decisions backs that up that just having you know, letting all staff see all patient records but saying oh, but they signed a code of conduct that's not going to be enough You won't be complying with your privacy legal obligations if that's all you're doing. So you need the same things like role-based access controls, but there's a whole bunch of other privacy controls that can be built into Tech design and it will depend on the kind of product you're or service that you're designing But depending on what it is you're doing, you know, if you're if you've got a data analytics project and using a data warehouse, for example, we would look at filtering out certain data fields. And then we'd look at masking other data fields from the view of particular user groups. If you think about something like an E-health record system, you would limit the search functionality to prevent misuse, you know, the kind of scenario we're usually looking at is, you know, could a staff member look up health information about their partner or their ex-partner or their next-door neighbour so you might put in a test that users need to pass before they can even access customer records. For example, rather than just enabling any user to do a global search against any customer or patient name, so there's plenty of different things you can do. So we use 8 privacy design strategies to help guide Our advice to our clients when we're reviewing technology design software design and sometimes the solution lies in the design of their technology itself, but quite often it's outside the technology so the solution might be or a mix of you know, staff training policies and procedures back to that transparency issue. So how you communicate with your customers. There are lots of different angles we can come from when we're trying to mitigate privacy risks. [00:30:50] Pete: Wow there's a lot to cover I'm sure there are many people listening and thinking this probably a few things that could be applied in their business in the healthcare space, whether it's they're providing the service or the software that sits behind it. I think it's evident that it that it's something that's important to everyone from that single physio, you mentioned right through to the big organizations have got a lot more structure and process to handle this stuff and even they get it wrong a lot too. So having a dedicated focus in that like you guys is particularly interesting so Thank you for sharing your thoughts and insights on that particular topic. [00:31:30] Anna: Great. Thanks for having me on the show.  

Panel Jaim Zuber (twitter Sharp Five Software) Pete Hodgson (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Ben Scheirman (twitter github blog NSSreencast) Discussion 01:32 - Model View Controller (MVC) and Model View Presenter (MVP) Ruby on Rails Model View ViewModel (MVVM) MFC Knockout.js 14:20 - Implementing MVC in iOS Apps 16:46 - Designing Models Alistair Cockburn: Hexagonal Architecture Domain-Driven Design: Tackling Complexity in the Heart of Software by Eric Evans Ruby Rogues Episode #78: Hexagonal Rails with Matt Wynne and Kevin Rutherford Ruby Rogues Episode #61: Domain Driven Design (DDD) with David Laribee 28:32 - Models and the Controller Notifications 31:00 - Key-Value Observing (KVO) 35:48 - Delegates and Blocks Picks Mattt Thompson: Key-Value Observing (Pete) Alistair Cockburn: Hexagonal Architecture (Pete) Saul Mora - Design Patterns for Mobile Apps (Pete) New Spring: The Novel (Wheel of Time) by Robert Jordan (Chuck) Freelancing Q&A (Chuck) Next Week OS X Transcript PETE: I can’t believe I beat Ben Scheirman today. CHUCK: With a stick? PETE: No, he’s in the wrong state for that. CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to episode 37 of the iPhreaks Show. This week on our panel we have Jaim Zuber. JAIM: Hello from Minneapolis, where it’s a balmy 4°. CHUCK: Pete Hodgson. PETE: You just totally stole my thunder. I was going to complain about being cold in San Francisco, but it’s a lot warmer than that. Hello from not-so-frigid San Francisco. CHUCK: How cold is it in San Francisco? PETE: [Chuckles] Like, 32°. I don’t know, it feels like it’s freezing, but it’s probably not even 32°. Probably warmer than that, just cold for San Francisco. CHUCK: Charles Max Wood from DevChat.tv and it’s also 4° here. PETE: Okay, I’ll stop complaining. JAIM: Really? Or is it just dry cold? CHUCK: Yeah, it’s just dry cold here, too. We did get some snow. JAIM: There we go. PETE: It all makes sense now. JAIM: A little bit nicer. CHUCK: Yeah. Gives you something to do – go shovel snow, go skiing – we’re making people jealous now, I'm sure. PETE: I think I've been here once in San Francisco when it snowed, and it was like two or three flakes on the top of Twin Peaks, which is like the only really tall bit of San Francisco, and people drove their cars up there in the middle of the night to see these snowflakes fall [chuckles]. But it wasn’t like snowball fights; it was like four snowflakes. It was really exciting; it made my year. No skiing that year for us at San Francisco. CHUCK: Oh, come on. Alright. Anyway, so today on our [inaudible] we have MVC. JAIM: Alright, we’re talking MVC – an MVC extravaganza of sorts, I think. CHUCK: Yup. [Chuckles] PETE: Maybe we should start off with a definition. CHUCK: [Chuckles] A definition. Thanks, Josh. JAIM: That might take the entire episode, I think. PETE: With MVC, I always get really confused. So I know what MVC stands for: Model-View-Controller. And I kind of understand the principles quite well. But what I don’t get is the difference between MVC and MVP, and then it gets really confusing when you start talking about some of the other things out there. This is a long shot. Do either of you two know the difference between MVC and MVP? Because I definitely could not answer that if I have to save my life. CHUCK: I have a very vague idea of what it means, so I'm not even going to venture to try because I’ll probably get it wrong. One thing that I can say, though is that I've come to iOS programming from a very strong Rails background, and MVC in Rails and MVC in iOS are not the same. JAIM: Yup. CHUCK: I tend to think of iOS as more of an MVVM, because –. JAIM: I forgot about that one. CHUCK: The controller acts more like a view model or a view controller than it does, you know, a full-on controller.

Panel Jaim Zuber (twitter Sharp Five Software) Pete Hodgson (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Ben Scheirman (twitter github blog NSSreencast) Discussion 01:32 - Model View Controller (MVC) and Model View Presenter (MVP) Ruby on Rails Model View ViewModel (MVVM) MFC Knockout.js 14:20 - Implementing MVC in iOS Apps 16:46 - Designing Models Alistair Cockburn: Hexagonal Architecture Domain-Driven Design: Tackling Complexity in the Heart of Software by Eric Evans Ruby Rogues Episode #78: Hexagonal Rails with Matt Wynne and Kevin Rutherford Ruby Rogues Episode #61: Domain Driven Design (DDD) with David Laribee 28:32 - Models and the Controller Notifications 31:00 - Key-Value Observing (KVO) 35:48 - Delegates and Blocks Picks Mattt Thompson: Key-Value Observing (Pete) Alistair Cockburn: Hexagonal Architecture (Pete) Saul Mora - Design Patterns for Mobile Apps (Pete) New Spring: The Novel (Wheel of Time) by Robert Jordan (Chuck) Freelancing Q&A (Chuck) Next Week OS X Transcript PETE: I can't believe I beat Ben Scheirman today. CHUCK: With a stick? PETE: No, he's in the wrong state for that. CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to episode 37 of the iPhreaks Show. This week on our panel we have Jaim Zuber. JAIM: Hello from Minneapolis, where it's a balmy 4°. CHUCK: Pete Hodgson. PETE: You just totally stole my thunder. I was going to complain about being cold in San Francisco, but it's a lot warmer than that. Hello from not-so-frigid San Francisco. CHUCK: How cold is it in San Francisco? PETE: [Chuckles] Like, 32°. I don't know, it feels like it's freezing, but it's probably not even 32°. Probably warmer than that, just cold for San Francisco. CHUCK: Charles Max Wood from DevChat.tv and it's also 4° here. PETE: Okay, I'll stop complaining. JAIM: Really? Or is it just dry cold? CHUCK: Yeah, it's just dry cold here, too. We did get some snow. JAIM: There we go. PETE: It all makes sense now. JAIM: A little bit nicer. CHUCK: Yeah. Gives you something to do – go shovel snow, go skiing – we're making people jealous now, I'm sure. PETE: I think I've been here once in San Francisco when it snowed, and it was like two or three flakes on the top of Twin Peaks, which is like the only really tall bit of San Francisco, and people drove their cars up there in the middle of the night to see these snowflakes fall [chuckles]. But it wasn't like snowball fights; it was like four snowflakes. It was really exciting; it made my year. No skiing that year for us at San Francisco. CHUCK: Oh, come on. Alright. Anyway, so today on our [inaudible] we have MVC. JAIM: Alright, we're talking MVC – an MVC extravaganza of sorts, I think. CHUCK: Yup. [Chuckles] PETE: Maybe we should start off with a definition. CHUCK: [Chuckles] A definition. Thanks, Josh. JAIM: That might take the entire episode, I think. PETE: With MVC, I always get really confused. So I know what MVC stands for: Model-View-Controller. And I kind of understand the principles quite well. But what I don't get is the difference between MVC and MVP, and then it gets really confusing when you start talking about some of the other things out there. This is a long shot. Do either of you two know the difference between MVC and MVP? Because I definitely could not answer that if I have to save my life. CHUCK: I have a very vague idea of what it means, so I'm not even going to venture to try because I'll probably get it wrong. One thing that I can say, though is that I've come to iOS programming from a very strong Rails background, and MVC in Rails and MVC in iOS are not the same. JAIM: Yup. CHUCK: I tend to think of iOS as more of an MVVM, because –. JAIM: I forgot about that one. CHUCK: The controller acts more like a view model or a view controller than it does, you know, a full-on controller.

Panel Saul Mora (twitter github NSBrief) Rod Schmidt (twitter github infiniteNIL) Pete Hodgson (twitter github blog) Ben Scheirman (twitter github blog NSSreencast) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 01:22 - Cora Data Core Data Programming Guide SQLite fmdb Transient Entities and Core Data | Cocoa Is My Girlfriend 07:50 - Stores and Contexts NSManagedObject Persistent Store Coordinator Core Data Editor Creating a CoreData Model in Code | Cocoanetics 21:17 - Faulting and Fetching NSFetchRequest The Law of Leaky Abstractions -com.apple.CoreData.SQLDebug 1 Base 2 CouchDB MongoDB TokyoCabinet 27:48 - Is Core Data the right tool for the job? Brent Simmons: On switching away from Core Data 29:46 - Managed Object Context MagicalRecord Core Data and Threads, Without the Headache | Cocoa Is My Girlfriend Core Data: Data Storage and Management for iOS, OS X, and iCloud by Marcus S. Zarra 38:22 - Importing Data 40:08 - Predicates Predicate Programming Guide Picks mogenerator (Ben) PonyDebugger (Ben) xctool (Pete) Neo4j (Pete) AeroPress (Pete) TICoreDataSync (Rod) Countly (Rod) Heil PR-40 Dynamic Studio Recording Microphone (Chuck) Roland R-05 Studio WAVE/MP3 Recorder (Chuck) iOS Programming: The Big Nerd Ranch Guide by Aaron Hillegass (Chuck) NSBrief (Saul) Wasabi Sync (Saul) Sip (Saul) Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan (Saul) Next Week WWDC Transcript SAUL: I like your style. CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 6 of iPhreaks! This week on our panel we have, Rod Schmidt ROD: Hello from Salt Lake City! CHUCK: We also have Pete Hodgson. PETE: Good morning from San Francisco! CHUCK: We also have Ben Scheirman. BEN: Hello from Houston, Texas! CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from DevChat.tv. And we have a special guest this week, that is Saul Mora! SAUL: Hello from Denver! CHUCK: Denver? I thought you said Fort Collins? Is that not the same thing? SAUL: [laughs] No, that's where the beer is. Okay [laughs] CHUCK: Oh, I see. SAUL: Right. But yeah, that wouldn't be so bad to go and get some beer now. CHUCK: If you go and get too much beer, is it a one-way trip [inaudible]? SAUL: [chuckles] Yeah, well, I have to take some guest with me. CHUCK: Oh, here you go. SAUL: But no...yeah, that's where the New Belgium Brewery is, so I take guests over there quite often. So for anybody comes and visit me in Denver, definitely head on up there. CHUCK: Well I don't drink alcohol, but I'm going to be in Denver this weekend. SAUL: Cool! CHUCK: Maybe I'll come and shake your hand, buy you lunch, or something. SAUL: Yeah! Just let me know! CHUCK: Awesome! ROD: You get to be the driver. [laughter] SAUL: There you go! CHUCK: I don't know what my wife would say about that. [laughter] SAUL: Oh, there are plenty of breweries out here to visit. So, we can visit them anywhere. CHUCK: Awesome! Well this week, we're going to be talking about CoreData. Or, do you call it Core Data? SAUL: [laughs] I thought that was an English thing; Pete might know. PETE: I'll refer to it as Core Data! [laughter] PETE: It's the French pronunciation. I still say Data; it's one of the few English things that I still say in the English way [inaudible]. SAUL: So do you say Beta or Beta? PETE: Oh, that's a good (question). I think I say Beta now just because it's like a -- I was going to say just because it's a software thing, but Beta was a software thing. So, I don't know. SAUL: We have gotten to him! Great! [Chuck laughs] PETE: Yeah. My covers are blown. [laughter] PETE: Actually, I'm native Texan. CHUCK: Yeah, you've seen that? Now you only sound cool when you're talking about things other than computers. PETE: Yup. CHUCK: Alright. So CoreData,

Panel Saul Mora (twitter github NSBrief) Rod Schmidt (twitter github infiniteNIL) Pete Hodgson (twitter github blog) Ben Scheirman (twitter github blog NSSreencast) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 01:22 - Cora Data Core Data Programming Guide SQLite fmdb Transient Entities and Core Data | Cocoa Is My Girlfriend 07:50 - Stores and Contexts NSManagedObject Persistent Store Coordinator Core Data Editor Creating a CoreData Model in Code | Cocoanetics 21:17 - Faulting and Fetching NSFetchRequest The Law of Leaky Abstractions -com.apple.CoreData.SQLDebug 1 Base 2 CouchDB MongoDB TokyoCabinet 27:48 - Is Core Data the right tool for the job? Brent Simmons: On switching away from Core Data 29:46 - Managed Object Context MagicalRecord Core Data and Threads, Without the Headache | Cocoa Is My Girlfriend Core Data: Data Storage and Management for iOS, OS X, and iCloud by Marcus S. Zarra 38:22 - Importing Data 40:08 - Predicates Predicate Programming Guide Picks mogenerator (Ben) PonyDebugger (Ben) xctool (Pete) Neo4j (Pete) AeroPress (Pete) TICoreDataSync (Rod) Countly (Rod) Heil PR-40 Dynamic Studio Recording Microphone (Chuck) Roland R-05 Studio WAVE/MP3 Recorder (Chuck) iOS Programming: The Big Nerd Ranch Guide by Aaron Hillegass (Chuck) NSBrief (Saul) Wasabi Sync (Saul) Sip (Saul) Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan (Saul) Next Week WWDC Transcript SAUL: I like your style. CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 6 of iPhreaks! This week on our panel we have, Rod Schmidt ROD: Hello from Salt Lake City! CHUCK: We also have Pete Hodgson. PETE: Good morning from San Francisco! CHUCK: We also have Ben Scheirman. BEN: Hello from Houston, Texas! CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from DevChat.tv. And we have a special guest this week, that is Saul Mora! SAUL: Hello from Denver! CHUCK: Denver? I thought you said Fort Collins? Is that not the same thing? SAUL: [laughs] No, that's where the beer is. Okay [laughs] CHUCK: Oh, I see. SAUL: Right. But yeah, that wouldn't be so bad to go and get some beer now. CHUCK: If you go and get too much beer, is it a one-way trip [inaudible]? SAUL: [chuckles] Yeah, well, I have to take some guest with me. CHUCK: Oh, here you go. SAUL: But no...yeah, that's where the New Belgium Brewery is, so I take guests over there quite often. So for anybody comes and visit me in Denver, definitely head on up there. CHUCK: Well I don't drink alcohol, but I'm going to be in Denver this weekend. SAUL: Cool! CHUCK: Maybe I'll come and shake your hand, buy you lunch, or something. SAUL: Yeah! Just let me know! CHUCK: Awesome! ROD: You get to be the driver. [laughter] SAUL: There you go! CHUCK: I don't know what my wife would say about that. [laughter] SAUL: Oh, there are plenty of breweries out here to visit. So, we can visit them anywhere. CHUCK: Awesome! Well this week, we're going to be talking about CoreData. Or, do you call it Core Data? SAUL: [laughs] I thought that was an English thing; Pete might know. PETE: I'll refer to it as Core Data! [laughter] PETE: It's the French pronunciation. I still say Data; it's one of the few English things that I still say in the English way [inaudible]. SAUL: So do you say Beta or Beta? PETE: Oh, that's a good (question). I think I say Beta now just because it's like a -- I was going to say just because it's a software thing, but Beta was a software thing. So, I don't know. SAUL: We have gotten to him! Great! [Chuck laughs] PETE: Yeah. My covers are blown. [laughter] PETE: Actually, I'm native Texan. CHUCK: Yeah, you've seen that? Now you only sound cool when you're talking about things other than computers. PETE: Yup. CHUCK: Alright. So CoreData,

Panel Pete Hodgson (twitter github blog) Ben Scheirman (twitter github blog NSSreencast) Rod Schmidt (twitter github infiniteNIL) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 03:00 - Why don't people test in iOS? 06:12 - Testing Definitions and the Mechanics of Testing Instruments User Guide TestPyramid 13:00 - Why do we test our code? Why is it worth it? Feedback Communication 19:28 - Practicing TDD (Test-driven development) UI View Controllers 25:33 - Unit Testing is hard 28:01 - Tools Send Testing Kit aka OCUnit Application and Logic Tests Running objective-c tests from the command line (with color) (Ben's Script based on Eloy Durán's) Continuous Integration Code Coverage Git Hooks gh-unit Kiwi Cedar RubyMotion Writing Tests for RubyMotion Apps Bacon 42:00 - Frank Selenium Zucchini appium bwoken KIF Calabash Jenkins Writing iOS acceptance tests using Kiwi: Pete Hodgson PublicAutomation Picks TextExpander (Ben) Alfred (Ben) Jenkins (Ben) Oban Scotch (Ben) NSScreencast: Automated Testing with Kiwi (Pete) Rock Climbing (Pete) Scarlett Red (Pete) Test-Driven iOS Development by Graham J. Lee (Rod) 42 (Rod) Test iOS Apps with UI Automation: Bug Hunting Made Easy by Jonathan Penn (Pete) Backbone.js (Chuck) LaunchBar (Chuck) Next Week iOS/Mac & differences with Josh Abernathy Transcript PETE: So what are we talking about this Tuesday morning? CHUCK: I'm not sure, but I think we should write a test for it first. CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 3 of iPhreaks! This week on our panel we have, Pete Hodgson. PETE: Hello from Butte Lake! [Ben laughs] CHUCK: Ben Scheirman...Butte Lake... BEN: Very well done. Very well done. [Ben laughs] CHUCK: Ben Scheirman. BEN: Hello from Houston! CHUCK: We also have, Rod Schimdt. ROD: Hello from Salt Lake City! CHUCK: Sorry, Rod. I was looking at Pete's picture and I was like "No, I already said Pete". [laughter] BEN: Yeah, for those who didn't get the joke we were looking at the transcription from last episode, or from episode 1. And -- CHUCK: Did that get fixed? PETE: It got fixed, yeah. BEN: Okay. So originally, Pete said he's from Berkeley and it came through as Butte Lake, which I thought was hilarious. PETE: I was pretty -- I was looking for the transcript -- it's pretty hilarious how much my accent has closed issues. For whatever personal machine is doing that transcription is definitely challenged by my accent. CHUCK: We're really sorry to the transcriptionist. PETE: Yeah. [laughter] CHUCK: We will pick our panelist more carefully next time. PETE: Oh! It's my fault, huh? [laughter] CHUCK: Anyway...And you can tell I had to ask if it got fixed because I just asked Mandy to do it and assume it's done. PETE: Yeah. No, she fixed it. She fixed it very very quickly. CHUCK: Yeah. PETE: And I'm used to that. I'm living in a [inaudible] when you found out like you have automated voice systems. They often don't work with British accent so I have to put on like a stupid American accent when I'm...operator! [laughter] PETE: Reservations. [laughter] CHUCK: It's funny, too, because a lot of times on those automated systems, they have somebody with a British accent or a fake British accent like speaking. BEN: Yeah. PETE: Yeah. But they didn't understand British. Siri didn't understand British for a very long time because you couldn't get like, if you lived in the US, you couldn't get American, so you couldn't get British Siri to work with like American information. So if I wanted to actually know about anything about America like where I live, I'd have to use the American version Siri, but she couldn't understand my pronunciation. [Ben laughs] CHUCK: So is the British Siri more polite?

Panel Pete Hodgson (twitter github blog) Ben Scheirman (twitter github blog NSSreencast) Rod Schmidt (twitter github infiniteNIL) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 03:00 - Why don’t people test in iOS? 06:12 - Testing Definitions and the Mechanics of Testing Instruments User Guide TestPyramid 13:00 - Why do we test our code? Why is it worth it? Feedback Communication 19:28 - Practicing TDD (Test-driven development) UI View Controllers 25:33 - Unit Testing is hard 28:01 - Tools Send Testing Kit aka OCUnit Application and Logic Tests Running objective-c tests from the command line (with color) (Ben’s Script based on Eloy Durán’s) Continuous Integration Code Coverage Git Hooks gh-unit Kiwi Cedar RubyMotion Writing Tests for RubyMotion Apps Bacon 42:00 - Frank Selenium Zucchini appium bwoken KIF Calabash Jenkins Writing iOS acceptance tests using Kiwi: Pete Hodgson PublicAutomation Picks TextExpander (Ben) Alfred (Ben) Jenkins (Ben) Oban Scotch (Ben) NSScreencast: Automated Testing with Kiwi (Pete) Rock Climbing (Pete) Scarlett Red (Pete) Test-Driven iOS Development by Graham J. Lee (Rod) 42 (Rod) Test iOS Apps with UI Automation: Bug Hunting Made Easy by Jonathan Penn (Pete) Backbone.js (Chuck) LaunchBar (Chuck) Next Week iOS/Mac & differences with Josh Abernathy Transcript PETE: So what are we talking about this Tuesday morning? CHUCK: I'm not sure, but I think we should write a test for it first. CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 3 of iPhreaks! This week on our panel we have, Pete Hodgson. PETE: Hello from Butte Lake! [Ben laughs] CHUCK: Ben Scheirman...Butte Lake... BEN: Very well done. Very well done. [Ben laughs] CHUCK: Ben Scheirman. BEN: Hello from Houston! CHUCK: We also have, Rod Schimdt. ROD: Hello from Salt Lake City! CHUCK: Sorry, Rod. I was looking at Pete's picture and I was like "No, I already said Pete". [laughter] BEN: Yeah, for those who didn't get the joke we were looking at the transcription from last episode, or from episode 1. And -- CHUCK: Did that get fixed? PETE: It got fixed, yeah. BEN: Okay. So originally, Pete said he's from Berkeley and it came through as Butte Lake, which I thought was hilarious. PETE: I was pretty -- I was looking for the transcript -- it's pretty hilarious how much my accent has closed issues. For whatever personal machine is doing that transcription is definitely challenged by my accent. CHUCK: We're really sorry to the transcriptionist. PETE: Yeah. [laughter] CHUCK: We will pick our panelist more carefully next time. PETE: Oh! It's my fault, huh? [laughter] CHUCK: Anyway...And you can tell I had to ask if it got fixed because I just asked Mandy to do it and assume it's done. PETE: Yeah. No, she fixed it. She fixed it very very quickly. CHUCK: Yeah. PETE: And I'm used to that. I'm living in a [inaudible] when you found out like you have automated voice systems. They often don't work with British accent so I have to put on like a stupid American accent when I'm...operator! [laughter] PETE: Reservations. [laughter] CHUCK: It's funny, too, because a lot of times on those automated systems, they have somebody with a British accent or a fake British accent like speaking. BEN: Yeah. PETE: Yeah. But they didn't understand British. Siri didn't understand British for a very long time because you couldn't get like, if you lived in the US, you couldn't get American, so you couldn't get British Siri to work with like American information. So if I wanted to actually know about anything about America like where I live, I'd have to use the American version Siri, but she couldn't understand my pronunciation. [Ben laughs] CHUCK: So is the British Siri more polite?