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Learn about the history, purpose and work of the Hispanic National Bar Association's Health & Life Sciences section, as shared by its co-chairs, Gelvina Rodriguez Stevenson, general counsel at the Wistar Institute and Mildred Segura, litigation partner at Reed Smith. The discussion will be moderated by Anna Lozoya from Sentara Health. ----more---- Transcript: Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast, Inclusivity Included, Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.  Anna: Welcome back to Inclusivity Included. And today's episode is in partnership with the Hispanic National Bar Association. And today we'll be learning about the Health and Life Sciences section, along with co-chairs Gelvina Rodriguez-Stevenson and Mildred Segura. Gelvina Rodriguez is the General Counsel and Corporate Secretary at Wistar Institution, an international biomedical institute. Gelvina's career spans various sectors of the healthcare industry, including hospitals, academic medical centers, and pharmaceutical companies in government. Gelvina serves as the co-chair of the Hispanic National Bar Association's Health and Life Sciences Section and as a board member of the American Health Law Association. Mildred Segura is a litigation partner at Reed Smith LLP, a full-service global law firm. She is based in Los Angeles and is a member of Reed Smith's Life Sciences Health and Industry Group, specializing in complex products liability litigation, matters focused on medical device and pharmaceutical litigation in state and federal courts across the United States. Well, Mildred and Gelvina, excited to have you here so we can learn more about the Health and Life Sciences section of HNBA. Gelvina, can you give the audience a brief history of what was the inspiration to create the section and a brief overview of the history of the section?  Gelvina: Yeah, great, Anna. Thank you. Thank you for that that introduction for putting together this session. Very happy to talk about the health and life sciences section of the HNBA. So we started this section of the HNBA years ago. And, you know, really the idea came when I had started my first in-house job, and it just happened to be in the health sector. It was at an academic medical college. And, you know, I got there. I was like, oh, I don't know anything about health law. So let me, you know, look for mentors. And I've been fortunate through my career to always be able to find, you know, wonderful mentors through the HNBA and, you know, LaLSA, when in law school. And I started looking around to find other attorneys who were in this sector and really couldn't find anyone. I looked around, you know, my, the legal department where I was, you know, other organizations and just really couldn't find any mentors, role models to figure out how to navigate this area. So, you know, having always been active with the HNBA, you know, doing law school and having served as a regional president for the HNBA, I knew that there were very active sections within the HNBA in other areas, business law, labor and employment, employment, compliance. And I thought, gosh, it'd be great if there were a health law section where I could meet other Latino and Latina lawyers working in this space and kind of learn how it works. So I proposed to leadership at the HNBA the idea of forming this section. They thought it was a great idea, and it was formed. So then at that point, sections formed, and we had to build the community. So basically, me and our co-chair reached out to people we knew who were in you know, pharmaceutical device companies, hospitals, and invited them to join. And then also when you're part of the HNBA, you can check off what section you're interested in joining. So we had members join that way. And, you know, over the years, it's grown to be a really wonderful network of Latino and Latino lawyers across the country who are either working in healthcare and life sciences or interested in it. And it really has become, you know, that mentoring, you know group that what didn't exist years ago so really really excited to you know have that come to fruition have it become what it's become.  Anna: That sounds like really great work and it sounds like we needed that and you recognized that was something we needed so good work there and and for contributing that.  Gelvina: yeah and so wonderful that the HNBA was just so open and willing to you know jump on a new idea and move it forward so that's always wonderful.  Anna: Yeah yeah definitely HNBA is It's big about innovating. And as we grow as a legal community as well, expanding to meet the needs of the members. But I'm sure Mildred, as it sounds from Gelvina, that this is growing and growing. What do you find to be the most rewarding and most challenging aspects of co-chairing this vastly growing and expanding section here?  Mildred: That's a great question, Anna. And I've been co-chair, Gelvina invited me to serve in that position maybe three, four years ago now, Gelvina, maybe, right? And prior to that, there were other co-chairs. But I know Gelvina has been there since inception, as she just described. And I would say, you know, during my tenure these last couple of years, I would say the most rewarding aspect of co-chairing the section has been the opportunity to make a tangible impact on our community, which is health and life sciences, lawyers, policymakers, students, right? People who are interested in maybe getting into this space or maybe don't even have a clue what the space really is. And I've had the privilege of working with really, you know, brilliant people like Gelvina, like yourself, Anna, and others that are in our section and learning just how vast this practice area really is, right, of health and life sciences and how much it encompasses. Purposes and um and it's nice as Gelvina said you know it's a place of like-minded people doing you know they're in different practices but under the same umbrella and we're all our goal is the same right to advance health care and life sciences while ensuring that our voices are heard in these critical areas whether it's representing our clients you know in big law or in public interest or in the government and so wherever you are it's it's a nice sort of place to come together and be be able to showcase, you know, what's going on in your practice or in this area. And it's a really collaborative spirit as well, where people bring ideas. You know, if someone comes to us and say, hey, I have an idea for a webinar that I want to put on, focused on health and life sciences, it's great, right? And we're learning as we go, too, because I'm a litigator. And so there may be ideas and trends that I'm not even aware of. So it's a really great way to stay abreast of what's going on in this space as well. And Gelvina mentioned mentoring. And so we do have students that are members. version. I would say that's the other rewarding aspect of this is the ability to mentor young attorneys is incredibly fulfilling, right? And we put on a CLE panel presentation at one of our corporate council conferences for the HNBA, which was focused on careers in life sciences and healthcare, because a lot of students have no clue, you know, well, what does that mean? You know, what kind of careers do you have within that space? And there was a panel of litigators, government attorneys, policymakers. Gelvina moderated that panel. I was on it as well. And it was great to see the type of questions that we were getting from these up-and-coming, soon-to-be lawyers. And on the flip side, you asked me what's been the most challenging. I would say is balancing the diverse interests of our members within the section, right? Because like I said, that I'm a litigator, Gelvina's in-house, we have people in government, you know, all across the board in transactional spaces. And so it's really, you know, trying to cater to our members, ensuring that we are responsive to their needs and what they're interested in. And so we try and cover a broad range of topics to ensure that we provide value to our members, which requires, you know, careful planning, constant communication. But these challenges also present opportunities for growth and innovation. Like I said, as a litigator, I'm learning a lot about other aspects of health and life sciences beyond what my firm offers, obviously, which also does a little bit of everything within the life sciences space. So that's what I would say have been the most rewarding and challenging aspects of being co-chair of the section.  Anna: Oh, that's a lot. But it sounds like you and Gelvina have a good handle of that and having such a wide spectrum of individuals from law students to seasoned attorneys. And it sounds like your panel regarding careers in health and life sciences really try to hold in on the great plethora of opportunities for someone who's interested in our great section, our section that we love.  Mildred: That's exactly right.  Anna: From this section's name, health and life sciences, Gelvina, who do you think should join this section? And like, what are the benefits of joining HNBA's Health and Life Sciences section?  Gelvina: Yep. So in terms of who should join, I think, you know, Mildred touched on this a bit. And I think she went over sort of the diversity of this field, right, and the breadth of who is a healthcare lawyer, who is a life sciences lawyer. And it's really anyone who's like, you know, knee deep in that space. Like you're on a hospital attorney or someone at a pharmaceutical company in healthcare and life sciences, or it could be someone just sort of interested in maybe exploring that space. Or it could be someone who's a litigator and they happen to have a case that involves two healthcare-related companies. They want to, you know, learn more about this space and how it works or just, you know, interact with people working in this space. It could be, you know, anyone from like the knee-deep healthcare life sciences lawyers to people who are just tangentially involved. And, you know, again, the spectrum there is hospital attorneys, pharmaceutical device company attorneys and other legal professionals, folks working in health tech, AI, which is huge in health care, health insurance companies. PBMs, pharmacies, labs, you know, government, AG offices do lots of the, you know, credentialing and licensing for health care providers. It's, you know, we cover topics in reproductive health, public health. We have lots of members who are working in the antitrust space. There's lots of activity and healthcare entities related to antitrust. So, you know, as you can see, public policy, Mildred mentioned that. And really just in terms of, you know, you asked about the benefits of joining. So, again, for the folks who are knee deep, like we get to, you know, get on these calls and say, you know, this is this topic that we're starting to see, you know, more of in our space. What are you all seeing? And just kind of share ideas and approaches. And, you know, for those who are not knee deep learning about the area, you know, and for students, you know, Mildred mentioned we have lots of students who join. And I think historically, healthcare and life sciences hasn't been like one of those key areas that you focus on in law school. It's not like, you know, securities, which is kind of all over. And so it's a new area. So we can provide, you know, mentoring and exposure to different career opportunities in this space, which is very exciting and growing. And we also coordinate with other organizations like the American Health Law Association and build liaisons there and share speaking opportunities that we're aware of that folks may want to be interested in, job opportunities. So I could go on and on forever about all the benefits of joining this section, but I'll pause there.  Anna: Thank you. I can definitely say I have benefited both from being a section member, from Gelvina's mentorship, which is a benefit. Mildred mentioned that it's having had the opportunity to present at the American Health Lawyers Association and also learning. I know we last year had someone present on privacy and AI and how that affects our our industry. And that was really great and insightful. I was like driving, but trying to take notes. And I'm like, I need to pay attention. And so it was just really enthralled and learned a lot. And I was able to take that back into my actual practice and still have. And it's been very impactful. So definitely a great benefit. And so really, really appreciative of the section doing that. And I have a question for both of you. Can each of you share how the section has influenced your practice and your personal life?  Gelvina: Yeah. You know, I think, like you said, just being able to meet other attorneys in this space like you and Mildred and, you know, work together. Yeah. And just finding that sense of community and others who've, you know, maybe are like in a field that I've been interested in or, and it's really just invigorating, right? Once you start looking for other Latino and Latina lawyers working in this space, we find each other and it's very inspiring. So, for example, we did a podcast series through the section where we interviewed Latino and Latina leaders in health care and life sciences. We, you know, for example, Lisa Pino, who was the director of the Office for Civil Rights within HHS, which is the office that enforces HIPAA, a really important position. So just being able to, you know, connect with her and, you know, expose our membership to people like her and really exciting positions like that. And, you know, she provided mentorship and advice on that call. Like, how do you get to these positions if you're interested? How do you navigate these positions as a Latina? So, you know, just being able to meet people and interact with people in this space has just been inspiring and made me feel very optimistic and supported in my career. So that's really been, you know, that's from a professional and personal, again, from a personal perspective, meeting other professionals who are working in similar space. You have so much in common and you can share so much. You become, you know, colleagues and friends, which is just wonderful. Yeah.  Mildred: Yeah, and I would echo a lot of what Gelvina just said in terms of just on a, in my practice alone, right, having immersed myself into the section, taken on the role of co-chair, having to learn sort of, okay, who's our membership? What are they interested in? But more than that really was the friendships that I've been able to build. Obviously, your network expands, right, which is always great. And just deepening my own understanding of health and life sciences. Like I said, I come from the litigation side of life sciences. So to be able to speak with you, Anna, about risk management issues that impact hospitals, for instance, right? And sort of those folks that are in that space is important because it helps inform perhaps how I may be counseling my clients on my end when it comes to the litigation side. So there's this cross-pollination. I think that's very beneficial and is one of the things that has greatly influenced my practice by virtue of serving as co-chair. And on a personal level, I would say that it's just reinforced my commitment to advocating for our community. It's nice, yes, we have a place of like-minded folks who can come together, share ideas, trends, and practices that cut across the health and life sciences space, but also what we do for the larger community. And one thing that HNBA offers is something called Advocacy Day, which is a day where HNBA members, section members can go to Congress, and we have various meetings with congressional representatives on issues of importance to our section. So as a health and life sciences section, we, you know, one issue that came to mind was on mental health, which is a key issue for the Latino community and something that can be, you know, has a lot of, could be taboo and a lot of, you know, people don't want to come forward and say, you know, I'm suffering from mental health and get the care that they need. So to me, that was the first time I participated in that advocacy date program. So to be able and have these meetings with, you know, the congressmen and congresswomen and be able to talk about these issues was really a different experience for me that I had not engaged in before. So I would say, you know, that experiences like that is something that our section offers and that I would recommend to anyone.  Gelvina: Yeah. And just to pick up on that point that Mildred just made, we also work very closely with the leadership of the health and life sciences section of the Asian American Bar Association, the South Asian NAPABA, SABA, and the NBA. And especially during the pandemic, we really were coordinating on health equity issues. And we did some publications for the HNBA on health equity to elevate being in a position where we could elevate those important topics. And as lawyers, a resource on how those issues impact our community from a legal perspective has been key. And, you know, to Mildred's point, being able to bring these important topics up at Advocacy Day has been a really important role for this committee.  Anna: Yeah, I think this section is really good at doing that, bringing forward not only our issues and what we need as section members, but also for the community at large. And not just professionally, but also just, you know, the overall Latino, Latina, Hispanic community across the U.S. I know we also have written, Gelvina and I and a few of us others, we wrote an article on how we could give back and give our skill sets since we have such a variety of skills across different spectrums of areas, whether it's helping with wills or sitting on a board. I know Gelvina sits on several boards and giving back in different ways to impact to ensure health care equity within our community and not just out in the sense of professional legal realm. Mildred, can you share any exciting initiatives that the section currently has and any that they might have going on in the future with our listeners?  Mildred: Sure. Good question. So, you know, right now our section is focused on a few key initiatives. One of them is creating more educational resources and webinars that address emerging issues in health and life sciences, particularly those affecting the Hispanic community, obviously, but also other trends that we're seeing that are of interest to our members. And we're also strengthening our mentorship program, aiming to provide guidance and support to the next generation of legal professionals in the field. This year, which kicked off in the fall of 2023, we kicked it off with a social media campaign, right? Because we know the younger generation is on Instagram and what used to be Twitter, so now X. And so HNBA has been really active in engaging with the social media platforms and getting the word out about sections like ours that are offered through the HMBA. So we had a social media campaign that featured myself, Gelvina, and you were part of that as well as our other vice chairs of the section to really get the word out about who we are, what's our mission, what's our purpose, right? We're here to serve you and to get more membership to join the section. So that's been one initiative in terms of just getting the word out. Other initiatives that we've taken on this year have been highlighting select members of our section on topics of interest. And we touched on this already earlier today. You know, we've had people from who are at the top pharma companies present on data privacy issues. We've had people within the medical device industry come and speak to us about what they're seeing relative to AI and life sciences and some of the implications coming out of that, both on the regulatory side and the litigation side, for instance. Instance, we had presentations on the impact of the recent FTC ruling on non-compete agreements, which now we have a federal court, right, who's come out and said, okay, you know, you don't have the authority to do that. So a lot of activity that's relevant to our section across the board, right, no matter whether you're in-house or at a firm or perhaps in government. And another initiative we had was focused on the Supreme Court's decision related to DOBS and reproductive health. And we put on a CLE panel at one of our corporate council conferences for the HNBA focused on sort of sexual and reproductive health post-DOBS, which was well attended and extremely timely just because of all the issues, you know, no matter what side you are on that issue, you know, it's always helpful to bring that to our community and have people, you know, have a discussion and a debate around those issues. More recently, coming up for our annual convention in September, taking place in D.C., we will have a panel focused on GLP-1 pharmaceuticals. It's called GLP-What? Exploring the Weighty Legal Issues of Pharma's Blockbuster Weight Loss Drug, which will feature our very own Anna, who's with us today, along with some other members of our section and the IP section of the HNBA. So we're looking forward to that. And we're busy working on some additional webinars coming up later this year, including one, like I said, on non-compete agreements, as well as because we are in election season, sort of the impact of the elections on health and life sciences. We know there's a lot of impact there and we want to be able to bring that to our members as well. And just getting creative, thinking outside the box. You know, this idea of this podcast, Anna, was yours. I thought, you know, it's a great idea. So initiatives like that, trying to get a little bit more creative in how we can, again, bring our section and the most value to our members as much as we can. And lastly, as Gelvina touched on, we're collaborating with other bar and healthcare-related organizations, such as the American Health Law Association, which you both touched on. And, yeah, so we're trying to do, you know, as much as we can, again, because, you know, we don't get paid for this. We do it because we like it, we want to. And it's, as Gelvina said, very inspiring and invigorating to be doing this work. So really lucky to have the opportunity to do it.  Anna: That's a lot of great work, a lot of great initiatives, and I look forward to that. I hope our listeners join us so you can learn. Even if you don't practice in this area, a lot of that expands and cross-pollinates and touches different aspects of our daily life. Gelvina, so where can people that are interested in learning more about this section and wanting to just find out when is the next podcast or when is the next webinar, where can they find us?  Gelvina: Yep, there's a number of ways. Number one, you can go on HNBA, Hispanic National Bar Association.com. And there's a drop down link to sections and you'll find the health section, health and life sciences section there. You can join that way. Also, as a member, you can join through your membership portal, but also you can join through the section portal. We have a LinkedIn page. It's HNBA Health and Life Sciences. So you can find us on LinkedIn and join that way. And we send out information about our upcoming events and activities via the LinkedIn page. On the LinkedIn page, there's also email addresses where you could email Mildred or me and we'll get you on the listserv. So we send out emails and calendar invites for the meetings. We usually have, as Mildred mentioned, a meeting at the annual conferences for the HNBA. There's two annual conferences a year, one in September and one in March. So we usually have an in-person meeting there. And then we have one to two virtual meetings throughout the year where folks can join. And like Mildred said, we have people present on topics of interest. But also, we start each of those meetings with everyone introducing themselves and where they work or what their interest is. And that's a really great way to get to know the community. So I would encourage folks to get on the LinkedIn page, join via the HNBA.com website, email us if you have any questions and, you know, come attend one of our meetings or activities.  Anna: Great. Thank you for sharing that. I want to thank everyone for joining us today here on Inclusivity Included in our partnership today with the Hispanic National Bar Association Health and Life Sciences section. Thank you, Gelvina and Mildred, taking time out of your busy days as co-chairs and sharing with us your experiences, your contributions, and as well as all the exciting new initiatives and planning that the section has. Please join us next time on our next episode on Inclusivity Included.  Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. You can find our podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts.  Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to of particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.  All rights reserved.  Transcript is auto-generated.

In this episode of Behind the Genes, we explore the challenges diverse communities face in accessing genomic medicine. The discussion focuses on issues including language barriers, cultural differences, and socioeconomic disparities that hinder marginalised communities from accessing and benefitting from genomic medicine. Our guests delve into successful strategies for engaging these communities in healthcare research and decision-making, highlighting the importance of building trust with groups that have historically been underserved or mistreated. The episode also emphasises the need for culturally sensitive communication from healthcare professionals and how meaningful community engagement can foster collaboration and trust within genomic research. Our host, Naimah Callachand is joined by Aman Ali, a Community Ambassador at Genomics England and Community Engagement Manager at Our Future Health, Anna Smith, Child and Adolescent Integrative Psychotherapist at Rareminds, and Moestak Hussein who works for Bristol City Council in Public Health & Communities, working directly to build and imbed cohesion, inclusion and social justice approaches in her role.   "If we talk about co-production, true co-production is really creating a power balance where there's no hierarchy. It's an empowering model. It empowers both the researchers or the person that comes in, but also the communities that participate, and you all start on the same level, on the same outcomes and the same goals and aims that you want to achieve."   You can read the transcript below or download it here: https://www.genomicsengland.co.uk/assets/documents/Podcast-transcripts/Bridging-the-gap-between-diverse-communities.docx  Naimah: Welcome to Behind the Genes.  Aman: It's really important to engage community leaders who are really well embedded within the communities, who are attached to organisations or institutions which are well trusted in the community as well, so that we can get a wider perspective of how communities feel about genomic medicine and accessing services that we want people to engage with.  Naimah: My name is Naimah Callachand and I'm Head of Product Engagement and Growth at Genomics England. On today's episode, I'm going to be joined by Anna Smith, child and adolescent integrative psychotherapist for Rare Minds, Aman Ali, a community ambassador for Genomics England, and Moestak Hussein, community coordinator at Bristol City Council. Today, we'll be discussing the disparities in access to genomic medicine amongst diverse communities. If you enjoy today's episode, we'd love your support. Please like, share and rate us on wherever you listen to your podcasts.  Aman: Hi, my name's Aman Ali, I am an ambassador at Genomics England, a person very passionate about health research and ensuring that diverse communities are involved in health research, and I work as a community engagement manager at Our Future Health.  Anna: My name's Anna Smith, I'm a psychotherapist. I work in private practice and also with Rare Minds, who are a company who provide therapy to people with rare and genetic conditions.  Moestak: Hi, my name is Moestak Hussein and I have a background in community development, and I'm passionate about tackling health inequalities, and building social justice and inclusive approaches to address health inequalities. I work at Bristol City Council in the public health team, and I've participated in the Bristol workshops around equity in research in genomics.  Naimah: So, let's jump in and first of all I want to talk about barriers to access for diverse communities. I want to talk about how there are language barriers, cultural differences and socioeconomic factors that impact access to genomic medicine for marginalised communities. Anna, I wonder if you maybe could talk to me a bit about this.  Anna: Yeah. So, I'm talking about the traveller community, and we refer to this community as a GRT community, which is Gypsy, Romany and Traveller, so it encompasses people in the UK, people living in Ireland as well. And some of the barriers to accessing healthcare are a lack of understanding of culture. There's been studies done where it says that people from GRT communities show up lower on all markers for poor healthcare and poor mental healthcare, and part of the reason for that is things like illiteracy. You know, you're dealing with people who can't read or write. They can't read appointment times. They don't have access to public transport. A lot of women don't drive in this community, and also women are not very well supported within the community by the people who can drive and who can get them places, because it's not seen as something that they need access to. Because the community is so closed, everything sort of takes place within the community.   In terms of genomic healthcare, access right from the start of life, if people are not accessing healthcare right from birth, they're not getting the genetic testing that's needed, so then a lot of these things don't even show up until the illness presents itself, and then accessing healthcare from there is really difficult. You know, it's something that – it doesn't happen a lot. Only 67 percent of people from the GRT community were able to get a doctor's appointment when they needed it, compared to nearly 90 percent from other communities, and that's through things like not having a fixed address. Lots of GPs don't offer temporary registration, which means that if you are travelling, you do not have access to a GP, which is your first port of call if you need any access to healthcare. So, many people from the GRT communities are using A&E services in order to get healthcare, which – you know, they are not set up for dealing with long-term life changing conditions. They're there to deal with what's right in front of them and then they move on. There's no sort of continuity of care.  Naimah: Thanks Anna, that's really highlighted a lot of barriers for the GRT community. And I wonder, Aman, if you want to come in now and maybe discuss some of the barriers that maybe the Muslim community might experience.  Aman: Yeah, I think anyone involved in medicine or anyone who's a doctor is really well respected in the Muslim community. That profession is something that every parent aspires for their children to get involved in. They at least want one of their children to be a doctor. Having said that, there's this willingness to engage with the space, but there's a lack of knowledge, which is a huge issue here. People don't know what the word genomics means or genes, or understand DNA. Some of this language is a huge barrier to understanding and then eventually accessing some of the services that could be available to people from Muslim communities. Because when we speak about Muslim communities, we're talking about a huge, diverse group of people from South Asia, from North Africa, from the Middle East, and they all have their nuances and different cultural experiences as well.  Just to kind of point out maybe one or two, most people in the UK have grown up in the UK, where access to healthcare is free, whereas this is quite a strange phenomenon for people who may have not been born in the UK and then access healthcare services in the UK. And the context being here is usually they pay for healthcare in other countries, and whenever any public or free healthcare is provided, it's usually seen as kind of not very good or suboptimum, or yeah, it's not going to be very helpful for us. So, when they see free healthcare in the UK, there's that kind of apprehension, “Actually, is this going to be worthwhile? I'm not paying for this, so it's not going to be very much good for me.” So, those are some of the cultural nuances that certain communities where healthcare is not for free in certain countries that poses a barrier.  Language in terms of speaking and reading is an issue. So, a lot of people, they may speak a language, but they don't know how to read a language. So, even when services are translated – I, for example, can speak Bangla, but I can't read or write Bangla, and not a word of Bangla at all. So for my parents, who can speak Bangla very well, their reading level is actually quite good, but I know that many within the community, they didn't get education back home, and therefore reading and writing is a challenge as well. And then you have the issue of dialects. There's so many dialects within so many different communities, so when a language is spoken or written in a particular way, if that dialect isn't your mother tongue or a dialect that you're familiar with, then that causes challenges to access as well.  Naimah: Moestak, how do cultural beliefs and values influence attitudes towards genomic medicine within each of these different cultural communities?  Moestak: I think Aman and Anna touched on it a lot, and it's about communities being able to coproduce that historically hasn't been there. The supremacy of certain communities to have a voice and be able to express how they would like to shape their healthcare, but also access to healthcare barriers have been part of having a barrier in access. And I think Aman touched on like even the term genomics, I don't think it exists in particularly my community. I come from the Somali community, and I've tried to look at historical kind of words and terms. I mean, our language only got developed in 1973, the written language, so you can imagine that there's a lot of gaps or there's other terminologies.  So, the cultural beliefs and values is also communities' recognition to be driving their own health needs and priorities is not valued within those sectors such as healthcare. I mean, we're still talking about holistic medicine. People go to their faith leaders in the first instance to have support around prayer. That's not necessarily recognised by mainstream health provision. And I think it's about how do we build on those strengths and how do we recognise that that is a really great part of communities. And it's also tradition and customs within childbirth, from birth, understanding what children and young people and families will need. I know there's customs and traditions for women to stay at home, for example, for 40 days, and those are the kind of traditions that could be built on. And I think it's about making sure that the child doesn't pick up bacteria or things like that.   So, there is an understanding and knowledge within communities of genomics. It's the awareness and the training around patient centred approaches are still missing, in my opinion. And I think that influences how people view genomic medicine. It goes back to the lack of trust and historic past abuses and cases, that communities has resulted in lower participation and a reluctancy to be part of genomic testing, but also that lack of understanding.  Naimah: Anna, did you have something you wanted to add in there?  Anna: What you were just saying about keeping it within the community, that's something that we see with the GRT community massively is everything is handled within the family, and I think that's not necessarily valued outside of that community. If you arrange an appointment with someone and the whole family turns up, it's like, “Woah, what's going on here? You know, how is this managed?” And it becomes a safeguarding issue, when actually that is how it's managed, and very often you need to get the whole family on board before you can start working with an individual. Because within the GRT communities, individuals do not exist outside of their families. Even what we're saying about language, a lot of the GRT community who live in England now speak English, but the words that they use for mental health are very different.   You talk about mental ill health, that translates as psychosis in the GRT community, whereas if you're talking about depression and anxiety, somebody might say that they've got bad nerves. So, if you come up and say, “We're dealing with mental health now,” people would say, “Well, I don't have psychosis, I don't have that, this is not an issue for me.” And it's like you're speaking different languages even though you're using the same words.  Naimah: From what all of you have said as well, it does sound like there are a lot of similarities in the barriers in each of the different cultural communities.  I wanted to move on to ask about what strategies have been effective at engaging these diverse communities in healthcare research and decision making processes.  Aman: There are a number of ways I've seen best practice take place in regards to kind of community engagement. The approaches have been one of two approaches. One, either inviting the community to come to your spaces, i.e. organising events or having opportunities where people can engage with your service. Or the alternative approach, which I think is actually more effective, is actually going to the spaces where communities are most familiar with. So, whether that's holding a focus group at a community centre, at a church or at a mosque, or engaging in coproduction with a community organisation, to come together, to come up with an idea of how to best engage communities. And I also feel like there's a difference between PPI, patient and public involvement, versus community engagement.   And those are the two major approaches that I've seen when it comes to community engagement, and I'm a big advocate of community engagement, because you're going into spaces which are authentic to the very communities that we are hoping to engage, but you're going into an unfamiliar environment as opposed to bringing that community into an unfamiliar environment, where they might be a bit guarded with what they want to share and how comfortable they feel. So, those are some reflections on good practices in community engagement.  And I think one of the key things that we need to do is understand who are the key community leaders within that community, ‘cos it's one thing being within that community, and being able to speak about that community are two different things altogether. So just to articulate what I mean by that, I live in Luton, but I've just moved to Luton two months ago, so if you ask me about what life is like in Luton, I'll be able to speak about my experience, but if I was to live here for 20, 30 years then I'd be in a better position to speak about how people in Luton live and what their experiences are like, and that's two different perspectives you're going to get. So, it's really important to engage community leaders who are really well embedded within the communities, who are attached to organisations or institutions which are well trusted in the community as well, so that we can get a wider perspective of how communities feel about genomic medicine and accessing services that we want people to engage with.    Naimah: Thanks Aman. I think you made a couple of really good points there, and I think you kind of have this overarching feeling of building trust, which is what Moestak mentioned in the previous question as well. I thought maybe now would be a good time to discuss your first responders project, Aman, if you could tell us a bit about that. It'd be good to hear the kind of developments from that community work.  Aman: Yeah, so one of the ideas that came about from engagement actually that we had with some community leaders within the Muslim community, primarily some imams, they heard about the work of Genomics England, they heard about the work of research in particular, and they were really keen to get involved even further, but they were honest in saying that, “I know very little about this space. And it's one thing for me not to know much, but then if I don't know anything then I'm not able to then advocate for this within the community. So, two things you need to help me with. One, help me understand this space, but also allow me to then be able to advocate for services or information that my community can benefit from.”  So, that's where the inception of this first responders idea came about. The idea being that community engagement happened with some imams from all across the country, where we trained them to understand a bit more about genomics, and genomic healthcare and medicine, but also to be able to navigate a number of scenarios that they may face in the community. For example, there's a mother who has been recommended by their GP to go see a genetic counsellor, but they're really worried about broaching that conversation with their husband or their family, because of the challenges that they may face. So, how would you support someone in the community when that scenario comes up? Or for example, someone like Genomics England or Our Future Health or another organisation has approached you about a research study, and they want to engage your community, how would you have that conversation with that particular organisation, advocate for those health programmes within your community?  So, we just presented a number of scenarios. But I think the main thing that we ended with was giving the imams in this particular incident the ability to signpost to services, be it helplines that are available for communities to access more information, or websites that people can access in order to understand more information about different issues to do with health conditions, or whether it be better understanding issues like cousin marriages or kind of accessing genetic testing.  Naimah: That sounds like you're empowering the leaders to advocate for healthcare and share this with their communities through this work. I wonder, Anna, is that something that you could do in the GRT community as well, like empower the leaders of the family to disseminate these healthcare messages, and how would we do that?  Anna: Yeah, I think so. I think a lot of it would need to be outreach, and there are people out there who can help bridge that gap. For example, there's a great team called Family Friends & Travellers, and if you get in contact with them and let them know which community you'd like to go into, they can help arrange, or they will come with you to go into that community. Because the GRT community, you know, is very mistrustful of anyone coming in, and rightly so. It was only in 2011 that they were included on the national census as an option to say you're from that community, so I think there's massive mistrust there of anyone coming into the community.  So, if you want to engage the leaders of the families or of the communities, you're going into a settled traveller site, there will usually be somebody who is in charge of that site, not officially, but maybe their family might be the biggest family or they might be the most important family. And there are people out there who will allow you to start to engage with that person, who can then disseminate the information. But it needs to be outreach care, and the information that you disseminate, it needs to be tailored to people who have left school at primary age, who don't have the skills to read or write, or to manage appointments or read prescriptions, or have access to that type of healthcare. That's where it really needs to be tailored.  And I think confidentiality as well needs to be tailored a lot, because gossip and reputation and shame is huge in the GRT community, and if you are seen to be engaging with someone outside of the community, that is something that can bring a lot of shame to you and your family, so it needs to be handled really, really carefully.  Naimah: Just to kind of go along with this theme of trust that you've all now mentioned, Moestak, I wonder if you could maybe comment on what strategies can healthcare organisations and researchers employ to build trust with these communities who have historically been underserved or mistreated?  Moestak: Yeah, I think I mentioned earlier about the hierarchy of power around superiority and also mistrust of medical professional generally, and I touched there on how safeguarding concerns are triggered on not understanding cultural norms and practices within communities, and misconstruing that with safeguarding. There is generally that mistrust is there. And I think what Aman touched on there is really the importance of asset based approaches, and really building on transparent and really embedding transparent and inclusive practices from the onset. I mean, if we talk about coproduction, true coproduction is really creating a power balance where there's no hierarchy. It's an empowering model. It empowers both the researchers or the person that comes in, but also the communities that participate, and you all start on the same level, on the same outcomes and the same goals and aims that you want to achieve.  And I think it's important to embed those kind of approaches, and it's Covid-19 – I mean, we took part in Bristol in King's Fund research around the community champions model. It's exactly that, about engagement, about community driving their own solutions, and being able to collectively collaborate, drive their health piece forward, but also increase the capacity of communities. We worked with clinicians who come from those communities, and it's no surprise that the uptake of covid-19 vaccine increased as a result of working with those trusted voices.   Quite often, those really effective programmes and engagement often are not funded adequately. They're not sustained. And what happens is that we constantly are having to rebuild and restart, and that really does affect trust as well with communities. And when something works, why not build on it? And even now with that Covid-19 learning from the community champion model, the resource is not there anymore. It's not valued anymore, sadly. That in itself is a risk, I think, in building the trust, but also the strength to continue that work and adapt in other ways around genomic medicine, and even increasing and diversifying the genomics data pool, helping communities understand and drive that. And that first responders project, communities being trained to capacity build and then being able to drive that within their communities, that's the only way that we're going to have effective strategies.  Aman: I think adding onto what's been mentioned, with regards to building trust, it's really important to understand the motivations of communities, and to understand what messaging is going to resonate with different communities, and it's going to be a different message for each community. You can't have the same approach for all communities. A recurrent theme that I've come across when engaging different communities is this difference between messaging which is individualistic and then messaging which is about the community and more the collective message, and how that resonates a lot more with certain communities that I've engaged with, particularly within Muslim communities. And that's something that I think is a bit untapped in regards to kind of any materials that are created, be it posters or videos or any content looking to reach out to communities.  When we did some focus groups with some communities in Watford, who are primarily from the Pakistani community but also other parts of Asia in that region, the biggest response or biggest positive response that we got was when we posed the question, “If you were to know that people who look like you, from wherever your parents are, family may be from, would you be motivated to take part in that research?” And the biggest yes came on the back of that question. And that speaks to the fact that, “If I know that my family or my community, not just in the UK but abroad can benefit, then that would really motivate me and build trust that actually you're not just here to benefit me as an individual, but you're here to benefit my community as a whole, and therefore, yes, I'm going to be more trusting of this programme and be more motivated to take part.”  Naimah: I just wanted to go briefly back, Moestak, you mentioned cultural norms, and I wanted to talk about the cultural norm in societies where maybe people may marry someone from the same ancestor, and what the societal fallout from these practices might be.  Moestak: The stigma and the stereotypes often for communities comes from those beliefs and messages that are often sometimes not even backed up with scientific evidence. It can be seen as Islamophobic sometimes of Muslim communities that practice that. But also I think what's important to understand is that concept around hereditary conditions and how that can determine one's health, and it's not really fully appreciated or desired. And so as a result, for example, a lot of people refuse to even have those early onset maternal testing for the foetus. My personal experience, I have three children, teenagers now, and I refused those tests as well, because my belief and my religious beliefs would kind of not align with being able to terminate a foetus if there were some genetic conditions. And so I think that is often not understood and made very clear to communities, and build on their beliefs and attitudes and values. And so those are the kind of cultural norms that are not fully understood.  But also the opposite side of that actually around being able to prevent a good life for somebody or a bad life for somebody, and being able to prevent genetic conditions is also part of the religion on the flipside, but again it's not creating that link. That cultural beliefs is not understood. I think also the community implications around the stigma. I mean, autism's a big issue in the Samali community, and I remember years ago when I was working in education, we had a big issue around even acknowledgement of diagnosis and referrals, and it's because of the stigma. Those perceptions do exist within communities that if someone has a genetic condition or ill health or a disease, it's almost like being a black sheep in the community. And so it's being able to build on those desires of the community wanting to be healthy and well, I think is not often understood.  Naimah: And do you think it's partly as well education of healthcare professionals to communicate in a really culturally sensitive way?  Moestak: Yes, exactly, that's exactly what it is. It's missed opportunities really that we can build on. In that particular example of autism within the community, I was able to do a really positive piece of work with the community, and building on their interest and their skills, but using my own lived experience and understanding and knowledge, and being able to inform that within education sector but also the health sector, and providing that training and upskilling. And there is unfortunately a lack of diversity within the workforce if you look at the NHS. The lower level kind of cleaning and porter staff are ethnic minorities. And so it is about using those clinicians, as I mentioned earlier, that are coming from those communities are the forefront.  We've recently had a really positive piece of work in Bristol around let's talk about MMR, and we had a cohort of unvaccinated community, a Somali community, young people between the age of 16 to 25, and we worked with a Somali clinician, who led on that piece of work, and it was absolutely amazing. The young people as a result trusted her information and took up – but again also another thing that's important is that a lot of data in the medical system is missing. I for one migrated here from the Netherlands, where I came there as a refugee at the age of three years old. My medical history is completely missing in both the UK records but also in the Netherlands, so I didn't know if I had MMR vaccine. So, it's a lot of gaps in information that people have, newly arrived communities that still need to constantly be updated and informed and education awareness raised with those communities.  Naimah: Anna, I wonder if you wanted to add anything onto that point.  Anna: It's really difficult with that mistrust and sort of how closed the GRT community is to getting that information in, and I think to getting that information understood as well and to make it seem like it's important. Because family is the most important thing, people are accepted the way that they are. You know, if we're talking about autism, people are accepted the way that they are, and it is a bit like, you know, “There's nothing wrong with my child, how dare you suggest that there is?” That testing isn't done because the access to healthcare is so difficult, because people can't register with GPs, because they can't access maternity care, they can't access postnatal care. Because they can't register with the GP, they're not on the system, and then the records don't exist. Still now there's birth records and death records that do not exist for these people within the communities, never mind medical history throughout their lives.  Naimah: I think it really highlights a lot of gaps, doesn't it? Aman, do you want to add anything to that question?  Anna: Your opening remarks is that it's a cultural norm in all societies, and we see even within the royal family in the UK, that it seems to be that any disparaging comments are targeted towards certain communities, and even then unfairly. I mean, often it's associated with Muslim communities, but I would say the majority of Muslim communities don't practice marrying someone from within the same ancestor. It's certain cultural communities who do practice this. Having said that, even that practice shouldn't be seen in a disparaging way, because it's how those communities live their lives, and so we should be respectful of that and not speak in any way disparaging towards that community. And I think we have responsibility – ‘cos obviously nationally the conversation then moves onto increased risks of genetic disorders, and so we should be very matter of fact about what the percentage increase is when it comes to the likelihood of genetic disorders within families who marry with the same ancestor.   Because what happens is, if we're not very clear with what the actual facts are with regards to the increased risk of genetic order then even within the community which practices marrying someone from the same ancestor, that figure can be inflated, and so this perpetuates fear and perpetuates the stigma even more. Whereas if we are just matter of fact, “This is the increased risk of genetic disorders,” and leave it there, then the communities can decide and they'll have a more informed position. I think the figures are an increase from two to six percent increase, but if you were to ask people within the community, “What's the increase of genetic disorders if you're marrying someone from the same ancestor?” they might think it's 40 percent or 50 percent or a really high figure. So, that's something that we need to work towards better understanding, which will lead to removal of that stigma as well.  Anna: Again, that's something that we see in the GRT community as well, there's been research done by a woman called Sally Anne Lynch into cousin marriage within the Irish travelling community, and when they tested people, they found more than 90 genetic conditions that are present within people's DNA within that community that just aren't tested at birth. And I think, you know, you're right, it's something that is not talked about, because outside of these communities it's seen as wrong and it's not seen as something that's normal. It's seen as abnormal. But within this community, it is very normal and it's very accepted. But then the testing isn't done because of the access to healthcare.  Naimah: I think it just seems like it does kind of boil down to education and educating healthcare professionals that it is kind of normal practices. Aman, did you want to add something else?  Aman: Yeah, Anna made a really good point about testing. I think there's something that is a gap in the service that we probably don't provide more widely is that, when it comes to people who practice marriage within the same ancestor in other countries, testing is very normal. So, I know there's many countries around the world where it's very standard practice and even a requirement in certain countries that you must be tested before you get married, and so maybe that's something that we can learn from in the UK.  Moestak: I think it's important to understand that some communities, decision making of consent is sometimes done by the head of the family, and I think that that is not fully understood as well, and often can be a barrier to participation. And I think that there's an element of empowerness that is needed, particularly around women that need that empowerment model around consent of decision making around their testing and genetic testing, and just medical consent.  Naimah: That's an excellent point as well, thanks Moestak.  So, I know we've touched on aspects of this already, but I wanted to finish on this question, how can meaningful community engagement foster trust and collaboration in genomic research and healthcare initiatives?  Aman: I think one of the things that I would really improve is just awareness around genomic healthcare and genomics in general. It's a learning curve that's going to happen within communities at different rates, and we need to be mindful of this because that rate will determine also health inequities that are experienced by those communities as well. So, we need to make sure that we are adequately approaching all communities to the best of our abilities. Having said that, target maybe more resourcing and educational opportunities for communities which have been underrepresented in health research and in genomic health research as well primarily, so we need to sort of prioritise certain communities in regards to our community outreach, because then we'll dispel any myths that people might have and work towards chipping away at the mistrust that certain communities may feel towards just healthcare in general, but more particularly about genomic healthcare, ‘cos genomic healthcare brings up some unique challenges and some unique perspectives within communities.  So, there's a number of fears about the future, but also misgivings about healthcare in the past as well that we need to acknowledge. So, by having community engagement initiatives, which are prioritised from the beginning and not just an afterthought, we can go a long way towards getting over some of the challenges of the past, but also not making new challenges for us in the future.   Anna: I think as a whole, the UK has got a long way to go with building trust with the GRT community. I think it's going to take some time. They still are one of the most marginalised communities. For example, in the area that I live, there was a GRT funeral going on a few weeks ago, and all the pub shut because they didn't want GRT communities in their establishments, and there is no other community or minority that that would happen with now. So, I think there is still quite a long way to go to gain the trust of the GRT community. And in terms of healthcare, I think we need to go right back to the start and learn about these communities, and understand their cultures and their practices, and how they work without that judgement. Living a nomadic lifestyle is still criminalised. There needs to be a decriminalisation around these communities before we can even start to begin to work out how to go there and allow them to access healthcare and knowledge and information around genetic conditions, and around health and mental health.   It's going to be a very long road from here, but I think what we can start doing is to start that destigmatisation. If you are a doctor and somebody turns up in your surgery identifying as someone from the GRT community, understanding the background they come from, and not having all those prejudices, you know, which is very difficult to do, to get rid of those thoughts that you already have about someone. I think we need to make a real effort to start, and I think there needs to be changes within the NHS in order for people to access healthcare better. I think the resources that are given and the information that goes out needs to be more specifically tailored to these communities if that's who you're trying to engage with, because there's so much that goes on in the community that's not known outside of the community, and it's not spoken about, and within different GRT communities as well. You know, there are different GRT communities all around the UK, and what goes on in them is not known to other GRT communities either.   So, it's about being specific with the information that you're getting out, with who you're actually targeting. And I think a bit like we were saying earlier, it's the women, you know. The women have childcare responsibilities almost all of the time, and they are the ones who bring up the children, but they're not necessarily the ones that make the decisions about the children or the child healthcare. You know, women are expected to do jobs in the morning. Women are not available before 11 o'clock in the morning. So, think about when you're making appointments for. Think about when you're going. I think it is going to be a long, long road before we get there, you know, with building trust and getting the information out there, but I think we can make a start.  Naimah: Yeah, it does seem like there is lots of ways we can start tackling it slowly. Moestak, I wonder if you had anything you wanted to add.  Moestak: As a public health specialist, you know, we've not been taught genomic medicine or genomic health at all in terms of how that can benefit and radically change the NHS and improve determinants of health, so that's a massive gap of knowledge within the healthcare sector and professionals. But I think in terms of addressing the historic mistrust, I think there needs to be an acknowledgement and a real openness around the historic, you know, abuse and unethical practices that have existed within health. There are other countries that are much more advanced in that and really embedding that within communities through pledges. That long-term kind of piece of work for me is missing. You know, it's that wider education piece that's missing that needs to be really embedded in the culture.  But I think also investing in the infrastructure in the community. Like far too often, if the long-term vision is not there, communities are reluctant to get involved and have trust within that, so I think that's an important part as well. And I think it's also about demonstrating the benefits of genomic medicine. I think that needs to be done in a community level way, through storytelling. I know that there's now a lot of development around cancer treatments around genomics, but I think it's about having those people who have those lived experiences from different communities to be able to share the benefits and demonstrate that through their way, and being appropriately reimbursed as well. I think that's really important.  I think generally, I think there's a long way we've got to go. I'll never forget when I went to Vancouver on a conference around health, and there was a lot of reconciliation there, where there was really acknowledgement, and the indigenous communities there that have a lot of health disparities were able to kind of overcome some of that and start building as a community and addressing tackling health inequalities because that trust was built and that acknowledgement from high up, from government level, all the way trickled down to local. I think also patient centred approaches around – like we mentioned, we talked about linking the cultural norms and the values and the beliefs that people have, and the skills and the assets that they have to be able to lead on these solutions themselves, that really needs to be embedded to build trust.   Aman touched on the perception around what could be done with genomic data. I don't know if Aman wants to elaborate a bit on that, but that's really important. It's a big barrier. It's how do we create transparent ways of storing data, but also use various ways of communication. It doesn't have to be traditional reports. It could be through podcasts. It could be like community messaging.   Naimah: Yeah, I think that's a really important point. Aman, did you want to come in on that?  Aman: Yeah, I think sharing the stories of the past in an appropriate setting, in an appropriate manner as well – ‘cos it's a bit of a double edged sword, ‘cos you don't want to scare people who are unfamiliar with these stories, but at the same time there's a moral responsibility for all of us involved in this space to speak about these issues, one from the perspective of acknowledging what's happened in the past, so then people feel like, “Okay, you're not trying to hide anything here,” but from the perspective of also that we need to make sure that we don't repeat some of the mistakes in the future, and that as people involved in genomic healthcare and involved in this space, that we're cognisant of these misgivings in the past, and we're cognisant of our responsibility to safeguard communities in the future.  Naimah: Okay, so we're going to wrap up there. Thank you so much to our guests, Anna Smith, Aman Ali and Moestak Hussein for joining me today as we discussed the barriers to access to genomic medicine for diverse communities, and the impact it has on these communities. If you'd like to hear more like this, please subscribe to Behind the Genes on your favourite podcast app. Thank you for listening. I've been your host and producer, Naimah Callachand, and this podcast was edited by Bill Griffin at Ventoux Digital.

Anna Belak, Director of the Office of Cybersecurity Strategy at Sysdig, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss the newest benchmark for responding to security threats, 5/5/5. Anna describes why it was necessary to set a new benchmark for responding to security threats in a timely manner, and how the Sysdig team did research to determine the best practices for detecting, correlating, and responding to potential attacks. Corey and Anna discuss the importance of focusing on improving your own benchmarks towards a goal, as well as how prevention and threat detection are both essential parts of a solid security program. About AnnaAnna has nearly ten years of experience researching and advising organizations on cloud adoption with a focus on security best practices. As a Gartner Analyst, Anna spent six years helping more than 500 enterprises with vulnerability management, security monitoring, and DevSecOps initiatives. Anna's research and talks have been used to transform organizations' IT strategies and her research agenda helped to shape markets. Anna is the Director of Thought Leadership at Sysdig, using her deep understanding of the security industry to help IT professionals succeed in their cloud-native journey. Anna holds a PhD in Materials Engineering from the University of Michigan, where she developed computational methods to study solar cells and rechargeable batteries.Links Referenced: Sysdig: https://sysdig.com/ Sysdig 5/5/5 Benchmark: https://sysdig.com/555 TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. I am joined again—for another time this year—on this promoted guest episode brought to us by our friends at Sysdig, returning is Anna Belak, who is their director of the Office of Cybersecurity Strategy at Sysdig. Anna, welcome back. It's been a hot second.Anna: Thank you, Corey. It's always fun to join you here.Corey: Last time we were here, we were talking about your report that you folks had come out with, the, “Cybersecurity Threat Landscape for 2022.” And when I saw you were doing another one of these to talk about something, I was briefly terrified. “Oh, wow, please tell me we haven't gone another year and the cybersecurity threat landscape is moving that quickly.” And it sort of is, sort of isn't. You're here today to talk about something different, but it also—to my understanding—distills down to just how quickly that landscape is moving. What have you got for us today?Anna: Exactly. For those of you who remember that episode, one of the key findings in the Threat Report for 2023 was that the average length of an attack in the cloud is ten minutes. To be clear, that is from when you are found by an adversary to when they have caused damage to your system. And that is really fast. Like, we talked about how that relates to on-prem attacks or other sort of averages from other organizations reporting how long it takes to attack people.And so, we went from weeks or days to minutes, potentially seconds. And so, what we've done is we looked at all that data, and then we went and talked to our amazing customers and our many friends at analyst firms and so on, to kind of get a sense for if this is real, like, if everyone is seeing this or if we're just seeing this. Because I'm always like, “Oh, God. Like, is this real? Is it just me?”And as it turns out, everyone's not only—I mean, not necessarily everyone's seeing it, right? Like, there's not really been proof until this year, I would say because there's a few reports that came out this year, but lots of people sort of anticipated this. And so, when we went to our customers, and we asked for their SLAs, for example, they were like, “Oh, yeah, my SLA for a [PCRE 00:02:27] cloud is like 10, 15 minutes.” And I was like, “Oh, okay.” So, what we set out to do is actually set a benchmark, essentially, to see how well are you doing. Like, are you equipped with your cloud security program to respond to the kind of attack that a cloud security attacker is going to—sorry, an anti-cloud security—I guess—attacker is going to perpetrate against you.And so, the benchmark is—drumroll—5/5/5. You have five seconds to detect a signal that is relevant to potentially some attack in the cloud—hopefully, more than one such signal—you have five minutes to correlate all such relevant signals to each other so that you have a high fidelity detection of this activity, and then you have five more minutes to initiate an incident response process to hopefully shut this down, or at least interrupt the kill chain before your environments experience any substantial damage.Corey: To be clear, that is from a T0, a starting point, the stopwatch begins, the clock starts when the event happens, not when an event shows up in your logs, not once someone declares an incident. From J. Random Hackerman, effectively, we're pressing the button and getting the response from your API.Anna: That's right because the attackers don't really care how long it takes you to ship logs to wherever you're mailing them to. And that's why it is such a short timeframe because we're talking about, they got in, you saw something hopefully—and it may take time, right? Like, some of the—which we'll describe a little later, some of the activities that they perform in the early stages of the attack are not necessarily detectable as malicious right away, which is why your correlation has to occur, kind of, in real time. Like, things happen, and you're immediately adding them, sort of like, to increase the risk of this detection, right, to say, “Hey, this is actually something,” as opposed to, you know, three weeks later, I'm parsing some logs and being like, “Oh, wow. Well, that's not good.” [laugh].Corey: The number five seemed familiar to me in this context, so I did a quick check, and sure enough, allow me to quote from chapter and verse from the CloudTrail documentation over an AWS-land. “CloudTrail typically delivers logs within an average of about five minutes of an API call. This time is not guaranteed.” So effectively, if you're waiting for anything that's CloudTrail-driven to tell you that you have a problem, it is almost certainly too late by the time that pops up, no matter what that notification vector is.Anna: That is, unfortunately or fortunately, true. I mean, it's kind of a fact of life. I guess there is a little bit of a veiled [unintelligible 00:04:43] at our cloud provider friends because, really, they have to do better ultimately. But the flip side to that argument is CloudTrail—or your cloud log source of choice—cannot be your only source of data for detecting security events, right? So, if you are operating purely on the basis of, “Hey, I have information in CloudTrail; that is my security information,” you are going to have a bad time, not just because it's not fast enough, but also because there's not enough data in there, right? Which is why part of the first, kind of, benchmark component is that you must have multiple data sources for the signals, and they—ideally—all will be delivered to you within five seconds of an event occurring or a signal being generated.Corey: And give me some more information on that because I have my own alerter, specifically, it's a ClickOps detector. Whenever someone in one of my accounts does something in the console, that has a write aspect to it rather than just a read component—which again, look at what you want in the console, that's fine—if you're changing things that is not being managed by code, I want to know that it's happening. It's not necessarily bad, but I want to at least have visibility into it. And that spits out the principal, the IP address it emits from, and the rest. I haven't had a whole lot where I need to correlate those between different areas. Talk to me more about the triage step.Anna: Yeah, so I believe that the correlation step is the hardest, actually.Corey: Correlation step. My apologies.Anna: Triage is fine. It's [crosstalk 00:06:06]—Corey: Triage, correlations, the words we use matter on these things.Anna: Dude, we argued about the words on this for so long, you could even imagine. Yeah, triage, correlation, detection, you name it, we are looking at multiple pieces of data, we're going to connect them to each other meaningfully, and that is going to provide us with some insight about the fact that a bad thing is happening, and we should respond to it. Perhaps automatically respond to it, but we'll get to that. So, a correlation, okay. The first thing is, like I said, you must have more than one data source because otherwise, I mean, you could correlate information from one data source; you actually should do that, but you are going to get richer information if you can correlate multiple data sources, and if you can access, for example, like through an API, some sort of enrichment for that information.Like, I'll give you an example. For SCARLETEEL, which is an attack we describe in the thread report, and we actually described before, this is—we're, like—on SCARLETEEL, I think, version three now because there's so much—this particular certain actor is very active [laugh].Corey: And they have a better versioning scheme than most companies I've spoken to, but that's neither here nor there.Anna: [laugh]. Right? So, one of the interesting things about SCARLETEEL is you could eventually detect that it had happened if you only had access to CloudTrail, but you wouldn't have the full picture ever. In our case, because we are a company that relies heavily on system calls and machine learning detections, we [are able to 00:07:19] connect the system call events to the CloudTrail events, and between those two data sources, we're able to figure out that there's something more profound going on than just what you see in the logs. And I'll actually tell you, which, for example, things are being detected.So, in SCARLETEEL, one thing that happens is there's a crypto miner. And a crypto miner is one of these events where you're, like, “Oh, this is obviously malicious,” because as we wrote, I think, two years ago, it costs $53 to mine $1 of Bitcoin in AWS, so it is very stupid for you to be mining Bitcoin in AWS, unless somebody else is—Corey: In your own accounts.Anna: —paying the cloud bill. Yeah, yeah [laugh] in someone else's account, absolutely. Yeah. So, if you are a sysadmin or a security engineer, and you find a crypto miner, you're like, “Obviously, just shut that down.” Great. What often happens is people see them, and they think, “Oh, this is a commodity attack,” like, people are just throwing crypto miners whatever, I shut it down, and I'm done.But in the case of this attack, it was actually a red herring. So, they deployed the miner to see if they could. They could, then they determined—presumably; this is me speculating—that, oh, these people don't have very good security because they let random idiots run crypto miners in their account in AWS, so they probed further. And when they probed further, what they did was some reconnaissance. So, they type in commands, listing, you know, like, list accounts or whatever. They try to list all the things they can list that are available in this account, and then they reach out to an EC2 metadata service to kind of like, see what they can do, right?And so, each of these events, like, each of the things that they do, like, reaching out to a EC2 metadata service, assuming a role, doing a recon, even lateral movement is, like, by itself, not necessarily a scary, big red flag malicious thing because there are lots of, sort of, legitimate reasons for someone to perform those actions, right? Like, reconnaissance, for one example, is you're, like, looking around the environment to see what's up, right? So, you're doing things, like, listing things, [unintelligible 00:09:03] things, whatever. But a lot of the graphical interfaces of security tools also perform those actions to show you what's, you know, there, so it looks like reconnaissance when your tool is just, like, listing all the stuff that's available to you to show it to you in the interface, right? So anyway, the point is, when you see them independently, these events are not scary. They're like, “Oh, this is useful information.”When you see them in rapid succession, right, or when you see them alongside a crypto miner, then your tooling and/or your process and/or your human being who's looking at this should be like, “Oh, wait a minute. Like, just the enumeration of things is not a big deal. The enumeration of things after I saw a miner, and you try and talk to the metadata service, suddenly I'm concerned.” And so, the point is, how can you connect those dots as quickly as possible and as automatically as possible, so a human being doesn't have to look at, like, every single event because there's an infinite number of them.Corey: I guess the challenge I've got is that in some cases, you're never going to be able to catch up with this. Because if it's an AWS call to one of the APIs that they manage for you, they explicitly state there's no guarantee of getting information on this until the show's all over, more or less. So, how is there… like, how is there hope?Anna: [laugh]. I mean, there's always a forensic analysis, I guess [laugh] for all the things that you've failed to respond to.Corey: Basically we're doing an after-action thing because humans aren't going to react that fast. We're just assuming it happened; we should know about it as soon as possible. On some level, just because something is too late doesn't necessarily mean there's not value added to it. But just trying to turn this into something other than a, “Yeah, they can move faster than you, and you will always lose. The end. Have a nice night.” Like, that tends not to be the best narrative vehicle for these things. You know, if you're trying to inspire people to change.Anna: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I think one clear point of hope here is that sometimes you can be fast enough, right? And a lot of this—I mean, first of all, you're probably not going to—sorry, cloud providers—you don't go into just the cloud provider defaults for that level of performance, you are going with some sort of third-party tool. On the, I guess, bright side, that tool can be open-source, like, there's a lot of open-source tooling available now that is fast and free. For example, is our favorite, of course, Falco, which is looking at system calls on endpoints, and containers, and can detect things within seconds of them occurring and let you know immediately. There is other EBPF-based instrumentation that you can use out there from various vendors and/or open-source providers, and there's of course, network telemetry.So, if you're into the world of service mesh, there is data you can get off the network, also very fast. So, the bad news or the flip side to that is you have to be able to manage all that information, right? So, that means—again, like I said, you're not expecting a SOC analyst to look at thousands of system calls and thousands of, you know, network packets or flow logs or whatever you're looking at, and just magically know that these things go together. You are expecting to build, or have built for you by a vendor or the open-source community, some sort of dissection content that is taking this into account and then is able to deliver that alert at the speed of 5/5/5.Corey: When you see the larger picture stories playing out, as far as what customers are seeing, what the actual impact is, what gave rise to the five-minute number around this? Just because that tends to feel like it's a… it is both too long and also too short on some level. I'm just wondering how you wound up at—what is this based on?Anna: Man, we went through so many numbers. So, we [laugh] started with larger numbers, and then we went to smaller numbers, then we went back to medium numbers. We align ourselves with the timeframes we're seeing for people. Like I said, a lot of folks have an SLA of responding to a P0 within 10 or 15 minutes because their point basically—and there's a little bit of bias here into our customer base because our customer base is, A, fairly advanced in terms of cloud adoption and in terms of security maturity, and also, they're heavily in let's say, financial industries and other industries that tend to be early adopters of new technology. So, if you are kind of a laggard, like, you probably aren't that close to meeting this benchmark as you are if you're saying financial, right? So, we asked them how they operate, and they basically pointed out to us that, like, knowing 15 minutes later is too late because I've already lost, like, some number of millions of dollars if my environment is compromised for 15 minutes, right? So, that's kind of where the ten minutes comes from. Like, we took our real threat research data, and then we went around and talked to folks to see kind of what they're experiencing and what their own expectations are for their incident response in SOC teams, and ten minutes is sort of where we landed.Corey: Got it. When you see this happening, I guess, in various customer environments, assuming someone has missed that five-minute window, is a game over effectively? How should people be thinking about this?Anna: No. So, I mean, it's never really game over, right? Like until your company is ransomed to bits, and you have to close your business, you still have many things that you can do, hopefully, to save yourself. And also, I want to be very clear that 5/5/5 as a benchmark is meant to be something aspirational, right? So, you should be able to meet this benchmark for, let's say, your top use cases if you are a fairly high maturity organization, in threat detection specifically, right?So, if you're just beginning your threat detection journey, like, tomorrow, you're not going to be close. Like, you're going to be not at all close. The point here, though, is that you should aspire to this level of greatness, and you're going to have to create new processes and adopt new tools to get there. Now, before you get there, I would argue that if you can do, like, 10-10-10 or, like, whatever number you start with, you're on a mission to make that number smaller, right? So, if today, you can detect a crypto miner in 30 minutes, that's not great because crypto miners are pretty detectable these days, but give yourself a goal of, like, getting that 30 minutes down to 20, or getting that 30 minutes down to 10, right?Because we are so obsessed with, like, measuring ourselves against our peers and all this other stuff that we sometimes lose track of what actually is improving our security program. So yes, compare it to yourself first. But ultimately, if you can meet the 5/5/5 benchmark, then you are doing great. Like, you are faster than the attackers in theory, so that's the dream.Corey: So, I have to ask, and I suspect I might know the answer to this, but given that it seems very hard to move this quickly, especially at scale, is there an argument to be made that effectively prevention obviates the need for any of this, where if you don't misconfigure things in ways that should be obvious, if you practice defense-in-depth to a point where you can effectively catch things that the first layer meets with successive layers, as opposed to, “Well, we have a firewall. Once we're inside of there, well [laugh], it's game over for us.” Is prevention sufficient in some ways to obviate this?Anna: I think there are a lot of people that would love to believe that that's true.Corey: Oh, I sure would. It's such a comforting story.Anna: And we've done, like, I think one of my opening sentences in the benchmark, kind of, description, actually, is that we've done a pretty good job of advertising prevention in Cloud as an important thing and getting people to actually, like, start configuring things more carefully, or like, checking how those things have been configured, and then changing that configuration should they discover that it is not compliant with some mundane standard that everyone should know, right? So, we've made great progress, I think, in cloud prevention, but as usual, like, prevention fails, right? Like I still have smoke detectors in my house, even though I have done everything possible to prevent it from catching fire and I don't plan to set it on fire, right? But like, threat detection is one of these things that you're always going to need because no matter what you do, A, you will make a mistake because you're a human being, and there are too many things, and you'll make a mistake, and B, the bad guys are literally in the business of figuring ways around your prevention and your protective systems.So, I am full on on defense-in-depth. I think it's a beautiful thing. We should only obviously do that. And I do think that prevention is your first step to a holistic security program—otherwise, what even is the point—but threat detection is always going to be necessary. And like I said, even if you can't go 5/5/5, you don't have threat detection at that speed, you need to at least be able to know what happened later so you can update your prevention system.Corey: This might be a dangerous question to get into, but why not, that's what I do here. This [could 00:17:27] potentially an argument against Cloud, by which I mean that if I compromise someone's Cloud account on any of the major cloud providers, once I have access of some level, I know where everything else in the environment is as a general rule. I know that you're using S3 or its equivalent, and what those APIs look like and the rest, whereas as an attacker, if I am breaking into someone's crappy data center-hosted environment, everything is going to be different. Maybe they don't have a SAN at all, for example. Maybe they have one that hasn't been patched in five years. Maybe they're just doing local disk for some reason.There's a lot of discovery that has to happen that is almost always removed from Cloud. I mean, take the open S3 bucket problem that we've seen as a scourge for 5, 6, 7 years now, where it's not that S3 itself is insecure, but once you make a configuration mistake, you are now in line with a whole bunch of other folks who may have much more valuable data living in that environment. Where do you land on that one?Anna: This is the ‘leave cloud to rely on security through obscurity' argument?Corey: Exactly. Which I'm not a fan of, but it's also hard to argue against from time-to-time.Anna: My other way of phrasing it is ‘the attackers are ripping up the stack' argument. Yeah, so—and there is some sort of truth in that, right? Part of the reason that attackers can move that fast—and I think we say this a lot when we talk about the threat report data, too, because we literally see them execute this behavior, right—is they know what the cloud looks like, right? They have access to all the API documentation, they kind of know what all the constructs are that you're all using, and so they literally can practice their attack and create all these scripts ahead of time to perform their reconnaissance because they know exactly what they're looking at, right? On-premise, you're right, like, they're going to get into—even to get through my firewall, whatever, they're getting into my data center, they don't do not know what disaster I have configured, what kinds of servers I have where, and, like, what the network looks like, they have no idea, right?In Cloud, this is kind of all gifted to them because it's so standard, which is a blessing and a curse. It's a blessing because—well for them, I mean, because they can just programmatically go through this stuff, right? It's a curse for them because it's a blessing for us in the same way, right? Like, the defenders… A, have a much easier time knowing what they even have available to them, right? Like, the days of there's a server in a closet I've never heard of are kind of gone, right? Like, you know what's in your Cloud account because, frankly, AWS tells you. So, I think there is a trade-off there.The other thing is—about the moving up the stack thing, right—like no matter what you do, they will come after you if you have something worth exploiting you for, right? So, by moving up the stack, I mean, listen, we have abstracted all the physical servers, all of the, like, stuff we used to have to manage the security of because the cloud just does that for us, right? Now, we can argue about whether or not they do a good job, but I'm going to be generous to them and say they do a better job than most companies [laugh] did before. So, in that regard, like, we say, thank you, and we move on to, like, fighting this battle at a higher level in the stack, which is now the workloads and the cloud control plane, and the you name it, whatever is going on after that. So, I don't actually think you can sort of trade apples for oranges here. It's just… bad in a different way.Corey: Do you think that this benchmark is going to be used by various companies who will learn about it? And if so, how do you see that playing out?Anna: I hope so. My hope when we created it was that it would sort of serve as a goalpost or a way to measure—Corey: Yeah, it would just be marketing words on a page and never mentioned anywhere, that's our dream here.Anna: Yeah, right. Yeah, I was bored. So, I wrote some—[laugh].Corey: I had a word minimum to get out the door, so there we are. It's how we work.Anna: Right. As you know, I used to be a Gartner analyst, and my desire is always to, like, create things that are useful for people to figure out how to do better in security. And my, kind of, tenure at the vendor is just a way to fund that [laugh] more effectively [unintelligible 00:21:08].Corey: Yeah, I keep forgetting you're ex-Gartner. Yeah, it's one of those fun areas of, “Oh, yeah, we just want to basically talk about all kinds of things because there's a—we have a chart to fill out here. Let's get after it.”Anna: I did not invent an acronym, at least. Yeah, so my goal was the following. People are always looking for a benchmark or a goal or standard to be like, “Hey, am I doing a good job?” Whether I'm, like a SOC analyst or director, and I'm just looking at my little SOC empire, or I'm a full on CSO, and I'm looking at my entire security program to kind of figure out risk, I need some way to know whether what is happening in my organization is, like, sufficient, or on par, or anything. Is it good or is it bad? Happy face? Sad face? Like, I need some benchmark, right?So normally, the Gartner answer to this, typically, is like, “You can only come up with benchmarks that are—” they're, like, “Only you know what is right for your company,” right? It's like, you know, the standard, ‘it depends' answer. Which is true, right, because I can't say that, like, oh, a huge multinational bank should follow the same benchmark as, like, a donut shop, right? Like, that's unreasonable. So, this is also why I say that our benchmark is probably more tailored to the more advanced organizations that are dealing with kind of high maturity phenomena and are more cloud-native, but the donut shops should kind of strive in this direction, right?So, I hope that people will think of it this way: that they will, kind of, look at their process and say, “Hey, like, what are the things that would be really bad if they happened to me, in terms of sort detection?” Like, “What are the threats I'm afraid of where if I saw this in my cloud environment, I would have a really bad day?” And, “Can I detect those threats in 5/5/5?” Because if I can, then I'm actually doing quite well. And if I can't, then I need to set, like, some sort of roadmap for myself on how I get from where I am now to 5/5/5 because that implies you would be doing a good job.So, that's sort of my hope for the benchmark is that people think of it as something to aspire to, and if they're already able to meet it, then that they'll tell us how exactly they're achieving it because I really want to be friends with them.Corey: Yeah, there's a definite lack of reasonable ways to think about these things, at least in ways that can be communicated to folks outside of the bounds of the security team. I think that's one of the big challenges currently facing the security industry is that it is easy to get so locked into the domain-specific acronyms, philosophies, approaches, and the rest, that even coming from, “Well, I'm a cloud engineer who ostensibly needs to know about these things.” Yeah, wander around the RSA floor with that as your background, and you get lost very quickly.Anna: Yeah, I think that's fair. I mean, it is a very, let's say, dynamic and rapidly evolving space. And by the way, like, it was really hard for me to pick these numbers, right, because I… very much am on that whole, ‘it depends' bandwagon of I don't know what the right answer is. Who knows what the right answer is [laugh]? So, I say 5/5/5 today. Like, tomorrow, the attack takes five minutes, and now it's two-and-a-half/two-and-a-half, right? Like it's whatever.You have to pick a number and go for it. So, I think, to some extent, we have to try to, like, make sense of the insanity and choose some best practices to anchor ourselves in or some, kind of like, sound logic to start with, and then go from there. So, that's sort of what I go for.Corey: So, as I think about the actual reaction times needed for 5/5/5 to actually be realistic, people can't reliably get a hold of me on the phone within five minutes, so it seems like this is not something you're going to have humans in the loop for. How does that interface with the idea of automating things versus giving automated systems too much power to take your site down as a potential failure mode?Anna: Yeah. I don't even answer the phone anymore, so that wouldn't work at all. That's a really, really good question, and probably the question that gives me the most… I don't know, I don't want to say lost sleep at night because it's actually, it's very interesting to think about, right? I don't think you can remove humans from the loop in the SOC. Like, certainly there will be things you can auto-respond to some extent, but there'd better be a human being in there because there are too many things at stake, right?Some of these actions could take your entire business down for far more hours or days than whatever the attacker was doing before. And that trade-off of, like, is my response to this attack actually hurting the business more than the attack itself is a question that's really hard to answer, especially for most of us technical folks who, like, don't necessarily know the business impact of any given thing. So, first of all, I think we have to embrace other response actions. Back to our favorite crypto miners, right? Like there is no reason to not automatically shut them down. There is no reason, right? Just build in a detection and an auto-response: every time you see a crypto miner, kill that process, kill that container, kill that node. I don't care. Kill it. Like, why is it running? This is crazy, right?I do think it gets nuanced very quickly, right? So again, in SCARLETEEL, there are essentially, like, five or six detections that occur, right? And each of them theoretically has a potential auto-response that you could have executed depending on your, sort of, appetite for that level of intervention, right? Like, when you see somebody assuming a role, that's perfectly normal activity most of the time. In this case, I believe they actually assumed a machine role, which is less normal. Like, that's kind of weird.And then what do you do? Well, you can just, like, remove the role. You can remove that person's ability to do anything, or remove that role's ability to do anything. But that could be very dangerous because we don't necessarily know what the full scope of that role is as this is happening, right? So, you could take, like, a more mitigated auto-response action and add a restrictive policy to that rule, for example, to just prevent activity from that IP address that you just saw, right, because we're not sure about this IP address, but we're sure about this role, right?So, you have to get into these, sort of, risk-tiered response actions where you say, “Okay, this is always okay to do automatically. And this is, like, sometimes, okay, and this is never okay.” And as you develop that muscle, it becomes much easier to do something rather than doing nothing and just, kind of like, analyzing it in forensics and being, like, “Oh, what an interesting attack story,” right? So, that's step one, is just start taking these different response actions.And then step two is more long-term, and it's that you have to embrace the cloud-native way of life, right? Like this immutable, ephemeral, distributed religion that we've been selling, it actually works really well if you, like, go all-in on the religion. I sound like a real cult leader [laugh]. Like, “If you just go all in, it's going to be great.” But it's true, right?So, if your workflows are immutable—that means they cannot change as they're running—then when you see them drifting from their original configuration, like, you know, that is bad. So, you can immediately know that it's safe to take an auto-respon—well, it's safe, relatively safe, take an auto-response action to kill that workload because you are, like, a hundred percent certain it is not doing the right things, right? And then furthermore, if all of your deployments are defined as code, which they should be, then it is approximately—[though not entirely 00:27:31]—trivial to get that workload back, right? Because you just push a button, and it just generates that same Kubernetes cluster with those same nodes doing all those same things, right? So, in the on-premise world where shooting a server was potentially the, you know, fireable offense because if that server was running something critical, and you couldn't get it back, you were done.In the cloud, this is much less dangerous because there's, like, an infinite quantity of servers that you could bring back and hopefully Infrastructure-as-Code and, kind of, Configuration-as-Code in some wonderful registry, version-controlled for you to rely on to rehydrate all that stuff, right? So again, to sort of TL;DR, get used to doing auto-response actions, but do this carefully. Like, define a scope for those actions that make sense and not just, like, “Something bad happened; burn it all down,” obviously. And then as you become more cloud-native—which sometimes requires refactoring of entire applications—by the way, this could take years—just embrace the joy of Everything-as-Code.Corey: That's a good way of thinking about it. I just, I wish there were an easier path to get there, for an awful lot of folks who otherwise don't find a clear way to unlock that.Anna: There is not, unfortunately [laugh]. I mean, again, the upside on that is, like, there are a lot of people that have done it successfully, I have to say. I couldn't have said that to you, like, six, seven years ago when we were just getting started on this journey, but especially for those of you who were just at KubeCon—however, long ago… before this airs—you see a pretty robust ecosystem around Kubernetes, around containers, around cloud in general, and so even if you feel like your organization's behind, there are a lot of folks you can reach out to to learn from, to get some help, to just sort of start joining the masses of cloud-native types. So, it's not nearly as hopeless as before. And also, one thing I like to say always is, almost every organization is going to have some technical debt and some legacy workload that they can't convert to the religion of cloud.And so, you're not going to have a 5/5/5 threat detection SLA on those workloads. Probably. I mean, maybe you can, but probably you're not, and you may not be able to take auto-response actions, and you may not have all the same benefits available to you, but like, that's okay. That's okay. Hopefully, whatever that thing is running is, you know, worth keeping alive, but set this new standard for your new workloads. So, when your team is building a new application, or if they're refactoring an application, can't afford the new world, set the standard on them and don't, kind of like, torment the legacy folks because it doesn't necessarily make sense. Like, they're going to have different SLAs for different workloads.Corey: I really want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me yet again about the stuff you folks are coming out with. If people want to learn more, where's the best place for them to go?Anna: Thanks, Corey. It's always a pleasure to be on your show. If you want to learn more about the 5/5/5 benchmark, you should go to sysdig.com/555.Corey: And we will, of course, put links to that in the show notes. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. As always, it's appreciated. Anna Belak, Director at the Office of Cybersecurity Strategy at Sysdig. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this has been a promoted guest episode brought to us by our friends at Sysdig. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry, insulting comment that I will read nowhere even approaching within five minutes.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business, and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

Welcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: Text Posts from the Kids Group: 2021, published by jefftk on November 10, 2023 on LessWrong. Another round of liberating kid posts from Facebook. For reference, in 2021 Lily turned 7, Anna turned 5, and Nora was born. (Some of these were from me; some were from Julia. Ones saying "me" could mean either of us.) Anna: Hello, I'm Mr. Hamburger. Me: It's time to brush teeth, Mr. Hamburger. Anna: I can't brush my teeth, I'm a hamburger. Me: It's still time to brush teeth. Anna: Hamburgers don't have teeth. "Anna, try bonking your head into the faucet! I tried it, and the new squishy cover works!" Last week Lily said she wanted bangs. I told her there is a three-week waiting period for any major haircut, and set a calendar reminder for us to talk about it again in three weeks. She agreed. Two days later, she asked, "If I have bangs, will all my hair be short?" I asked, "...Do you know what bangs are?" "No." We've been reading "The Boxcar Children", and the kids are excited about playing at roughing it in the woods. Lily came downstairs with a pillowcase full of stuff. "Mom, we're pretending we are some poor people and we found just enough money to buy two couches, two pillows, a cooking pot, some stuffies, and this necklace. And I had just enough money to buy this pirate ship and two dolls." "Dad, why are sponges squishy? Like mice?" Jeff: Goodnight, Anna. Anna: Oy-yoy-yoy-yoy-yoy! That's baby for "You're the best dad in the world." Woke up to Lily reading to Anna Hypothetical from Lily: "Mom, if you lived in a peanut shell and the only food you had was cheez-its this big" [holds up fingers to pea size] "and you slept in a shoe made of stone, and ten hundred children lived there, would you find somewhere else to live?" From Lily at dinner: "There is something that makes me sad. [begins singing] Fairies aren't real Magic isn't real Unicorns aren't real Santa Claus isn't real The aTooth Fairy isn't real." Lily, explaining the difference between even and odd numbers: "If they could all line up for a contra dance and they'd all have a partner, that's even." Lily: "Anna, why did you hit me with the whistle?" Anna, not wearing glasses or anything: "I'm sorry, my sight had gotten fogged up" One of Lily's favorite conversations with Anna is the "gotcha." Lily: I was talking to Dad about if we could get a pony. Do you really really want a pony too? Anna: Yeah. Lily: Well we barely know anything about ponies, and we don't have enough room! ...Anna, do you think it would be cool to be a cowgirl? Anna: Yeah. Lily: Well you would have to accept very little pay, you would have to work long hours, and you would barely even get a hut to sleep in! Lily: "I'm super mad that the Fifth Amendment is still there! Somebody definitely needs to remove that thing" ... Yesterday I explained plea bargaining, and she also thinks that's no good. Anna, immediately after we sat down to dinner: "Here are some facts about teeth. Teeth are hard white blades that grow out of these things [indicates gums]. They can cut and grind." Lily, settling down for the night with her teddy bear: "Mom, do you know what I like about Little Bear? First, he's soft to cuddle with. Second, he's an apex predator, so if monsters are real I feel like he'll protect me." Anna: "Mom, can you sing the song where there's a big fight during the night and when the sun rises he's happy because he sees the flag?" Anna: "why aren't you making my breakfast?" Me: "you haven't told me what you wanted to eat yet?" Anna: "I did tell you!" Me: "I don't remember that?" Anna: "Well, I already told you!" Me: "Could you tell me again? Anna: "I don't repeat myself" Me: "Sorry, what?" Anna: "I DON'T REPEAT MYSELF!" Anna's statements of "fact" get less factual when she's mad. I helped her order a toy this morning with her allowance, and she asked when...

Link to original articleWelcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: Text Posts from the Kids Group: 2021, published by jefftk on November 10, 2023 on LessWrong. Another round of liberating kid posts from Facebook. For reference, in 2021 Lily turned 7, Anna turned 5, and Nora was born. (Some of these were from me; some were from Julia. Ones saying "me" could mean either of us.) Anna: Hello, I'm Mr. Hamburger. Me: It's time to brush teeth, Mr. Hamburger. Anna: I can't brush my teeth, I'm a hamburger. Me: It's still time to brush teeth. Anna: Hamburgers don't have teeth. "Anna, try bonking your head into the faucet! I tried it, and the new squishy cover works!" Last week Lily said she wanted bangs. I told her there is a three-week waiting period for any major haircut, and set a calendar reminder for us to talk about it again in three weeks. She agreed. Two days later, she asked, "If I have bangs, will all my hair be short?" I asked, "...Do you know what bangs are?" "No." We've been reading "The Boxcar Children", and the kids are excited about playing at roughing it in the woods. Lily came downstairs with a pillowcase full of stuff. "Mom, we're pretending we are some poor people and we found just enough money to buy two couches, two pillows, a cooking pot, some stuffies, and this necklace. And I had just enough money to buy this pirate ship and two dolls." "Dad, why are sponges squishy? Like mice?" Jeff: Goodnight, Anna. Anna: Oy-yoy-yoy-yoy-yoy! That's baby for "You're the best dad in the world." Woke up to Lily reading to Anna Hypothetical from Lily: "Mom, if you lived in a peanut shell and the only food you had was cheez-its this big" [holds up fingers to pea size] "and you slept in a shoe made of stone, and ten hundred children lived there, would you find somewhere else to live?" From Lily at dinner: "There is something that makes me sad. [begins singing] Fairies aren't real Magic isn't real Unicorns aren't real Santa Claus isn't real The aTooth Fairy isn't real." Lily, explaining the difference between even and odd numbers: "If they could all line up for a contra dance and they'd all have a partner, that's even." Lily: "Anna, why did you hit me with the whistle?" Anna, not wearing glasses or anything: "I'm sorry, my sight had gotten fogged up" One of Lily's favorite conversations with Anna is the "gotcha." Lily: I was talking to Dad about if we could get a pony. Do you really really want a pony too? Anna: Yeah. Lily: Well we barely know anything about ponies, and we don't have enough room! ...Anna, do you think it would be cool to be a cowgirl? Anna: Yeah. Lily: Well you would have to accept very little pay, you would have to work long hours, and you would barely even get a hut to sleep in! Lily: "I'm super mad that the Fifth Amendment is still there! Somebody definitely needs to remove that thing" ... Yesterday I explained plea bargaining, and she also thinks that's no good. Anna, immediately after we sat down to dinner: "Here are some facts about teeth. Teeth are hard white blades that grow out of these things [indicates gums]. They can cut and grind." Lily, settling down for the night with her teddy bear: "Mom, do you know what I like about Little Bear? First, he's soft to cuddle with. Second, he's an apex predator, so if monsters are real I feel like he'll protect me." Anna: "Mom, can you sing the song where there's a big fight during the night and when the sun rises he's happy because he sees the flag?" Anna: "why aren't you making my breakfast?" Me: "you haven't told me what you wanted to eat yet?" Anna: "I did tell you!" Me: "I don't remember that?" Anna: "Well, I already told you!" Me: "Could you tell me again? Anna: "I don't repeat myself" Me: "Sorry, what?" Anna: "I DON'T REPEAT MYSELF!" Anna's statements of "fact" get less factual when she's mad. I helped her order a toy this morning with her allowance, and she asked when...

We're back with a new episode in our Conflicts series and we're talking about assuming positive intent. It's so common to take someone's words or actions personally and assume that they are trying to irritate, thwart, or hurt us. This happens because we naturally see things from our own perspective. But going into a conversation with those assumptions is pretty much guaranteed to put the other person on the defensive, making productive conversation and connection basically impossible. Assuming positive intent means assuming everyone is doing the best they can in the moment, and that mindset shift can improve our communication and strengthen our relationships.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. Explore our courses and coaching at https://livingjoyfullyshop.com/.EPISODE QUESTIONS1. Think back to a time when someone gave you the benefit of the doubt and contrast that with a time when someone assumed the worst in you. How did you feel? How did you react? How did it impact your relationship with that person moving forward?2. Think of some recent exchanges - were you feeling defensive? Did you notice the other person defending? Think about how assuming positive intent could have changed that. 3. This week, notice the stories you're telling yourself about other people's actions.  How often are you assuming positive intent? Do you find it hard to do? Why?4. Think of a recent exchange with someone in which you felt defensive. Did you notice the other person defending in response? How long were you stuck there? How might have assuming positive intent and holding space to learn more changed how things played out? 5. Are there particular people in your life to whom you don't typically give the benefit of the doubt? Try on assuming positive intent for the next while. How does that shift things?TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. Navigating relationships can sometimes be challenging because people are so different. Thanks for joining us as we dive into tools, strategies, and paradigm shifts to help you decrease conflicts and increase connection in your most important relationships.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen from the beginning, particularly the episodes in our Foundation Series. In them, we talk about our favorite fundamental relationship ideas and tools. If you hear us mentioning a concept over and over again, chances are it has its own episode in the Foundation Series. You can also visit our shop and find the Foundation Series in a podcast collection bundle to be emailed to you weekly, including transcripts and questions.You can find the link in the show notes, or you can go to livingjoyfullyshop.com. There you can also find information about our coaching, as well, so if you'd like to talk through things that are happening in your relationship and find a healing path forward, that's the place to go. We both work with individuals and couples and again, link in the show notes, or you can go to livingjoyfullyshop.com.So, this episode is part of our Conflict Series and our mini-series inside of that about developing our self-awareness. So, today we're diving into assuming positive intent. This principle is a quick tool that helps us stay connected and open.I think, culturally, we tend to assign negative intent. Our first thought is that someone is doing something to thwart us or irritate us or that they don't have a clue. But so often, that's not the case. And whether it is or isn't, going into a conversation with those assumptions is pretty much guaranteed to put the other person on the defensive, which makes having any sort of productive and connecting conversation basically impossible.And as with so many things we talk about, this plays into being the person we want to be in the world. I want to assume the best in people, because I've seen when I do that, it's often what I find. We are all doing the best we can at any given moment. And that best can change dramatically based on the contextual pieces of life.When we are under-resourced, our ability to think clearly and act with intention is clouded. I want to be a person that allows space and grace for that, because I know there have been plenty of times that I've been there and I've needed that from others. So, assuming positive intent can be assuming that the person is doing the best they can in this moment with the circumstances as they are.PAM: Absolutely. I just love that piece about how doing their best can look very different from one day to the next, or one moment to the next. It's not about thinking what their theoretical best looks like, measuring them in this moment against what they would do if they were feeling fully resourced, fully rested, fully fed, in a great frame of mind, and so on. They really are doing their best in this moment. This is what it looks like. It's the best they can muster. Let's meet them there with as much grace and compassion as we can muster.Over the years, assuming positive intent has become such a helpful touchstone for me when it comes to relationships, particularly with partners, kids, longtime friends, where we have a history. And I can be quick to assume I understand them and tell myself a story about why they're saying or doing something.And as you said, I am apt to tell a negative version of the story about the situation or to feel put upon or ignored or misjudged. And it's not surprising. We are looking at the world through our eyes and evaluating what's happening around us through that lens. How does this affect me? But what assuming positive intent does is remind me that there is almost always more to the story than just my perspective, knowing that they're doing the best they can right now, whatever that looks like to me at first, encourages me to widen my lens and get curious. So, so, so many times over the years, this buffer step has saved me from actively jumping in, misinterpreting things, blaming others, which all create even more rifts in our relationship that need repair.ANNA: I mean, it is such a great reminder to look through their eyes, which I know we talk about a lot, but it's so important. It just helps so much.And we're going to make some assumptions. But starting from that place of assuming the best, or at the very least, giving the benefit of the doubt, just sets the stage for us to learn more and to not fall into that blaming or writing stories that can get us off track.And another piece I think that helps with assuming positive intent is to understand that underneath every behavior is a need. We had an episode on this idea as it relates to parenting, episode 25, and as we mentioned there, this is true for everyone. We try to meet our needs through our behaviors, and while sometimes the somewhat linear process, "I'm thirsty and I'm going to get a drink now," sometimes it's a bit harder to recognize, especially from the outside.But part of assuming positive intent is understanding that the person you're dealing with is trying to meet a need. At that particular moment, your needs might not be aligned, but if we can slow things down and give some space to find the underlying needs, that's the space where we can find solutions. That surface-level conflict that seems insurmountable and at complete odds, that can just melt away as we figure out the needs involved and address those.So, let's say if a person's working for you and they haven't turned in a report, instead of assuming that they're irresponsible or don't care, look for that underlying need. Have an open conversation with the energy of wanting to understand. Maybe you find out that they've had several fires they've been putting out that took priority, or they didn't understand the request, or that they were waiting for some information from a third party before they could finish it.Being open and not jumping to conclusions gives you a chance to find out what's happening under the behavior of not turning in the report, and then you can both work together to solve the problem at hand instead of creating friction or a rupture by making a harsher assumption. And there may be things that need to be addressed or systems that need to be changed, but you're only going to get there if you can have that open conversation where the person's not on the defensive and really telling you what's going on.And part of what we can practice with our partners, children, and the people in our lives is providing additional information. But the space for that to feel safe is in the space of assuming positive intent. There, we can have these clarifying conversations. We can explain how things are feeling to us and really hear what the other person's experiencing.PAM: Yeah, exactly. Because if we assume that the first story that pops into our head is the right one, so often what we're doing is putting the other person in the position of having to correct us. And that is a hard thing to do in any relationship, whether with a loved one or a supervisor, or even a newer acquaintance.So, assuming positive intent helps us cultivate that space for further conversation where we can just learn more about what's up, where we can discover the underlying needs they were trying to meet with whatever words, action, behavior they used. The valuable thing about focusing on the needs is that there are often multiple ways to meet them, some of which may have less negative impact on others.So, we can also share our needs in this context and all this bigger picture information helps us work towards a plan that everyone involved is reasonably comfortable with.And I wanted to mention, while it may seem that assuming positive intent and having these conversation takes up precious time we don't feel we have, not doing it is likely to take up maybe even more time down the road, as we continue to butt heads, because we're missing some fundamental understanding of each other's needs and goals. Then you add the time to repair the relationship. Or if you don't, the extra time things take in the future because one or both of you are dragging your feet because you just want to avoid engaging with each other in the first place.ANNA: Oh my gosh, so much. I'd much rather spend the time upfront in a connecting conversation with an eye to understanding each other, rather than dealing with hurt feelings and misunderstandings on the back end.And I really think, in the end, it's more efficient, because we're actually getting to the needs and solving any roadblocks, versus pressing ahead with made up stories and assigning malicious intent that ends up creating these huge disconnects that take time and effort to heal and we still may not be addressing the need underneath. And so, it just keeps repeating.Another big aspect of this is releasing any defensiveness on our part. A person's actions say way more about them than about us. They give us a clue as to what's going on for them, and we can assume positive intent. They have the space and the desire to let us in on what those things are, but if we react with defensiveness, communication just shuts down every time and it becomes this attack and defend tit-for-tat dynamic or a stalemate, and then we're stuck. So, we aren't learning anymore about the needs driving the behavior or what contextual pieces might be at play. We're not learning anything about those pieces that are so critical. And all of this draws out the conflict and doesn't move us towards solutions.So, assuming positive intent leaves space to get to the bottom of things faster without sparking that defensiveness in the other person and we can own our own pieces, too, to not get defensive. And I think we can all think of how nice it feels when someone gives us the benefit of the doubt and doesn't assume the worst, even if we're not at our best, or especially if we've made a mistake. Because usually, we're so hard on ourselves. We're beating ourselves up about the mistakes. So, then having that compounded just creates this cycle. Recognizing that's at play, it just makes it easier for me to give that gift to other people in my life, whether we're in a close relationship or it's just transactional.For me, again, it boils down to being the person I wanna be in the world. And the bonus is that it really just makes everything go so much more smoothly. We move through and often avoid conflict, and we get to the root of things without that defensiveness that can feel so unpleasant and without those misunderstandings that can cause a lot of hurt feelings.PAM: Yeah, so much. Things unfold more smoothly and often more quickly when people aren't feeling judged and defensive. And it makes sense. Getting stuck in that repetition of attack, defend, attack, defend, slows things down so much, while also not getting to the root of the issue or the underlying needs.And along those lines, I find it helpful to remember that assuming positive intent isn't about, instead telling myself a positive story and acting from there, because that is still making it about me and my interpretation, my need to infer a story and to be right about it.But as you said, Anna, their actions really are all about them. It's their story. So instead, for me, assuming positive intent is more about knowing there's a story and not jumping to conclusions, particularly the negative ones, because that just makes moving through the moment even more challenging. Getting curious instead of getting stuck in defensiveness helps create that space for the kinds of honest, non-judgmental conversations that will help everyone better understand the needs at play and find interesting ways to meet them.ANNA: Yeah, I think that assuming positive intent, it's just a way to give some space around things. We aren't writing a story at all. We're acknowledging that there's more to the situation than just what we're seeing. There always is more. There just always is. And leaving space for that. Asking for clarification without any negative energy or agenda just puts us in the best position to learn more and move forward.And to say it again, we are all doing the best we can in any given moment. Keeping that in mind, assuming positive intent helps us uncover the needs that are driving the behaviors that we're seeing.All of which helps us stay connected to the important people in our life and avoid unnecessary conflict with them or anyone we come across.PAM: I just go back to that for the nth time already, but doing the best we can in any given moment, I think it can be challenging for people to believe. Like, "I've seen them handle this so much better before."ANNA: Or, "They should be able to," when we catch ourselves saying, "They should be able to," that's a red flag.PAM: That's always a great clue. But also when, in our mind we're like, "Okay, I could do this, which would be like better. But I do this other thing anyway. It's what I reach for." So, even if theoretically we could choose something better in the moment and we don't, that's still okay. We may not be able to express why we made the choice in the moment. But we made that choice in the moment. And maybe these conversations after will help us better understand ourselves, better understand what was going on in that moment.It might help us recognize some other weight we were carrying or some other thing that was going on that we just couldn't take that extra 10 seconds to think of something else to do and we just needed to do this thing in the moment. So, we don't need to judge things as best. We don't need to figure out any scale or spectrum of what could be better, better, better, better. This is what happened in the moment, and oh my gosh, I can meet you there. And we can just have conversations.ANNA: And figure out the next steps, because we never know, and there's so many contextual pieces. I'll just say it over and over again. We cannot judge a relationship without taking into account these contextual pieces that changes peoples behaviors because of a myriad of reasons. We see it in ourselves, like you said. And so, just watching for those words, the shoulds or the judgment or the kind of standing back and then realizing like, hey, that's really disconnecting and I'm not getting the full story. And when we open up for those conversations, that's when we can learn. Do we have a systems problem here? Do we have a communications problem here? Do we just have a, we're all hungry problem here? Let's get some food and then we'll tackle this afterwards.It can be from the simple to the complex, but you're never going to get at what it is if you don't assume the positive intent, start having the space for the conversation, and then have that clear communication between one another.PAM: Yeah, exactly. And back to what you say, the person that I want to be in the world. And as far as I can reach for that in the moment, giving myself that same grace and compassion we want to give to the other person.ANNA: For sure. Okay, so, we're going to give some questions to reflect on this week.So, number one, think back to a time when someone gave you the benefit of the doubt and contrast that with a time when someone assumed the worst in you. How did you feel? How did you react? How did it impact your relationship with that person moving forward? Because we've all gotten both sides of this, and so, I think we can all think of some examples and just really sit with, "Hey, how did that feel and how would it have felt differently?"And number two, think of some recent exchanges where you or the other person was feeling defensive. Think about how assuming positive intent could have changed that. And so, for me, defensiveness is just that red flag either on their part, or if I'm recognizing it in someone else or seeing it in myself, it's like, okay, we can change that energy. We can change the way this conversation is going, because neither one of us need to feel defensive. We're here to understand.PAM: Defensiveness is such a great clue.ANNA: Yes. Such a great clue.PAM: It's pretty easy to feel once you're starting to look for it. So, that's what we're trying to encourage here, is just to start noticing these things even just that little bubble of oof, there it is. ANNA: Right. It's just that little, there it is. And even if you can't make that change in that moment, recognizing it to reflect on it later, then you can notice like, okay, I see what's getting me there. Now maybe I can think of some steps to not go to that place of defensiveness.Okay. So, this week, number three, notice the stories you're telling yourself about other people's actions. How often are you assuming positive intent? Do you find it hard to do? And why? Are you writing some stories? Are you assigning some more malicious intent? I think that will be really interesting to just see, because I think, like we talked about earlier, it comes pretty naturally. We're just running through and it happens. And so, just that awareness gives us that little pause, that little space. Okay. And four, think of a recent exchange with someone in which you felt defensive. Did you notice that the other person was defending in response? How long were the two of you stuck there? How might have assuming positive intent and holding space to learn more changed how that played out and how that tit-for-tat was going?And number five, are there particular people in your life to whom you don't typically give the benefit of the doubt? Try on assuming positive intent for the next bit and just see, does that shift things in what can be some difficult relationships or some areas that you get stuck? It's just something to play with and again, will give you more information about that relationship and about some ways that maybe you can tweak a few things.PAM: To me, that trying on things, seeing how they go, just doing it for a little while and seeing how things unfold, that is such a valuable approach for me. Rather than like, oh, I should be assuming positive intent. I'm going to do this all the time or I've failed. None of that helps me either as I'm learning this stuff and trying to figure it out and play with it. I need the experiences, the gathering of experiences for me to understand how it's working. Because when I see something, like you said, you have seen this over the years, we both have, play out in such a sense that it's something we've chosen to adopt because we found it as a helpful tool. So, we're sharing it as a helpful tool, not as a rule that you must do this now.ANNA: There are no edicts or "have to," it really is play with it and see if it shifts things, because it also may just open up to other ideas that shift things or other conversations with the people in your life where you're learning more about one another. And to me, that's the goal. Learning about ourselves, learning about one another, and just improving our relationships along the way.All right, so thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time. Take care.PAM: Bye!

What you'll learn in this episode:   How Anna finds the plants and animals she incorporates into her work, and how she does so sustainably Why even art jewelry must interact with the body to really be considered jewelry What techniques Anna uses to make delicate materials sturdy and wearable Why Anna hopes her jewelry will connect people to the natural world     About Anna Johnson Anna Johnson is a studio artist, craftswoman and educator residing in Asheville, NC. At a very young age she stumbled upon jewelry making and from then on it became not only her creative outlet, but a space of untampered personal expression that guided her through her educational, professional, and personal development. Equally taken by the depths of the natural world, organic elements began to be her main source of inspiration as her language in jewelry developed.   ​Today her work revolves around the question of where and why our culture perceives value by creating jewelry - often used to display worth, lineage, cultural hierarchy, believe affiliations, etc - with raw elements from directly from the natural world, unique and unpretentiously beautiful, in efforts of providing a fresh line of visual communication, a display of acknowledgment, consciousness, and in alliance with our natural world.   Additional Resources: Website Facebook Instagram   Photos Available on TheJewelryjourney.com    Transcript:   Most people who are drawn to Anna Johnson's jewelry for the first time have no idea it's made from leaves, animal bones and other items from nature—and that's exactly what Anna wants. Adapting techniques to highlight natural materials, she hopes that her jewelry will make people reconsider the world around us. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what attracts her to delicate materials and how she works with them; how she defines jewelry; and why she considers herself an artist first. Read the episode transcript here.    Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.    Anna Johnson's jewelry is very different. It's made of the bones of small creatures—for example, the mandibles of small reptiles—mixed with gems. You're so taken with the designs that you don't even realize what they're made of. Welcome back.    So, you came in with the idea that the artistry was metalsmithing and jewelry, but metalsmithing brought you to jewelry, and that was all part of the artistry. Am I understanding that correctly?   Anna: Sometimes it's hard for me to articulate because one, I do feel like my work is a bit vague, so I communicate and it's easier to read through that. The thing that probably got me to jewelry was this fascination and curiosity with the small. It just happened to be this perfect storm of, “Oh, I want to make small, detailed things that highlight the things I am fascinated with.” At the time when I was going to school, it was like, “O.K., if I want to make small metals, it's got to be jewelry,” but I also love jewelry. In a weird way it's a conflict, because I'm not saying that I never liked jewelry—because I do.    I love making jewelry, and it's so important to make jewelry wearable. If it's going to be jewelry, then it's very important for it to make you feel good, make you feel right, make you feel good about yourself, make you feel good when you're wearing it. In order for it to be jewelry, it does need to, in my opinion, fit into the framework of being wearable. You see big art pieces which are amazing but maybe not so wearable. Sometimes that's intentional and makes sense with the concept of the piece. Other times, it confuses me with the way I think about jewelry. Why jewelry then? If it's not going to proudly interact with the body, then is it jewelry? I don't know.   Sharon: I understand that with a lot of jewelry. I'm sort of lost at where the bones and the plants came into place with the jewelry.   Anna: Those are my inspirations. Before coming into it, when you're developing your creative voice, hopefully you grow in your medium. Especially with artists and craftspeople, people that are really connected to what they do—and I think it really works as a language for me. I was able to delve in and learn and explore in my own way. I had a love of plants and animals and stones, and I was interested in the shapes and forms across them. As I continued to learn jewelry—or metalsmithing, really—and I continued to learn that craft, I realized how they had come together. That was amazing for me, because I could cast the plants with the bones, and they were so beautiful. I was doing a lot of fragile, little elements, but to me it was so important. It was important enough for me to incorporate them into the work. They were so beautiful I wanted to include this in my pieces.    Then I had to troubleshoot to actually make it wearable and sturdy, so I added a whole other element to my work, and that was with the stones. I use a lot of raw minerals that would be more fragile, so I had to figure out how to stabilize them and back them in such a way where I felt comfortable putting them into the jewelry pieces. That became a big part of my work, and I think that also shaped it. I was constantly getting hit with different things that could have made me be like, “Oh, I just can't include this in the jewelry.” It would be so beautiful to me that I felt like there must be a way. What could that be? It forced me to think outside of the box.    For example, if I had a casting of a leaf that didn't come out all the way, and it had really delicate edges or something like that, that would normally be too fragile to wear on the body. They might get caught on clothing or something. I had to figure out a way to strengthen it to reinforce it. Then, with the materials I was using, I could set a possum tooth and do some stone settings, and those could create more structure to the piece to make it wearable. I had all these “aha” moments of realizing how much more interesting it would be. It might be more complicated for me in the beginning, but it was so worth that extra effort to get to the end result. The end result had a lot more weight and was more successful and different. That's how I carved out a voice.   Sharon: Did you have to explain this to gallery owners and people when you exhibited? Now, today, do you have to?   Anna: Yeah, it takes a little bit of both. I feel fortunate that I think my work will resonate with a lot of people, and it has resonated with people who look at it. It will strike them in some way that initially grabs them. Sometimes, if they don't realize what the materials are at first, they might get a sense of it by taking a closer look. Then I'm like, “Oh, you really like that piece. Well, this is a mandible, and this is a mineral that you don't see that often. I've supported it to make it wearable. Then this is the bud of a daylily.”    I hope—and so far, it seems like this is the case—that the work speaks on its own, but it doesn't need the explanation to make it speak. I think that's a thing with art. It's when it hits someone at their core. Especially if you're thinking about social media and how everyone is getting constant simulation, if you're walking down the street and there's lots of chaos and a mural makes you stop and say “Whoa,” what is it? If you're scrolling on Instagram and you see a piece of jewelry or a piece of ceramic, what is it that makes you stop on something and take a closer look? That's when the piece itself speaks more than whatever the words are behind it. I'm not saying that the words aren't important, but—   Sharon: No, I think that's what I was saying, in that the design attracts you first. I still don't know what the parts of the things I have are made from. You didn't have to explain them.    Anna: I remember a couple of the pieces. You'll have to send me a photo so I can tell you all the bits and pieces that are in them.    Sharon: I like the design.    Anna: Yeah, exactly.    Sharon: Is that what you mean by artistry?   Anna: Yes. You weren't drawn to it because you were like, “Oh, there are bones and plants in there.” It was the overall composition. It's just that the composition is made up of all these really beautiful things that exist in nature. I just pulled them out of context and put them in this form. We might walk by these things every day, and we don't have the time to sit and contemplate and really take in the beauty that's all around us. I think my work is repackaging it in a way that, consciously or unconsciously, it's a connection to the natural world around us.   Sharon: This may be a silly question, but do you think that, if one of the little snakes or something that was alive saw that you incorporated their jaw and put a pearl next to it, they would appreciate that? Do you think they would like that?   Anna: I do. That's another thing. It's something that has been prevalent since the beginning of humankind and across so many cultures, and that's honoring ancestors or animals. It's really important to me that these are things I have found or people I know have found, so I can feel confident that they weren't killed or anything for their bones. I need to find the things in nature so I know where they come from or that they came from someone who understands and appreciates that sentiment.    A lot of times, I'll bury things. If I find something, I'll bury it and let it continue its lifecycle, which I think is just as important. I'm pulling from things in nature, but it is number one that I'm doing it with the most respect for these different elements and the environment and sustainability. I feel like it's convoluted, and I don't think anyone who is creating objects and using resources can actually say they're sustainable, but it's doing as much as I can with as much respect as I can to move toward that as much as possible. At the point when I'm using it in my work, it's completed; it has cycled in a lot of ways. With the tissue and everything, its energy has been able to transfer. Then I can take these things and give those another life as well. All that is really important. I hope they would appreciate it.   Sharon: To me, it's nice. If the animal or the blade of grass knew what was happening to it after it died, it would be happy.   Anna: Yes. I also think there's a disconnect. It's so easy to disconnect from the natural world and not see these things that are living around us. You see a snake or something, and people are like, “I don't know,” and get freaked out by it, but that snake is just living its life. We are living our lives too, and they probably see us and are thinking the same thing about us, acting more in defense. Their reaction is probably much more reasonable than our reaction. Another part of it is that it shifts a bit. Even if someone is wearing vertebrae earrings, there is some part of them that's connected to that. They've looked at that. They've obviously seen something in that as valuable, which is why they've purchased the earrings and are wearing them. With that, maybe they're able to show a little more appreciation.    It's my way of creating this connection wherever I can. Songbirds are really protected, which is amazing, so I think we appreciate birds. There are great resources so you can identify bird sounds, and because of that, we're like, “Oh, they're beautiful. They're wonderful,” and you're not freaking out when you see a robin in a tree. In a way, it's by identifying something. If there's more understanding for things, then we empathize more. I'm not saying my work is doing that in any major way, but I do think it's an interesting way of subtly crossing little wires, giving things a little more context, and that makes us naturally empathize. We name things. If you find something, you should name it. Say you were to get a stray kitten. If you're like, “Oh, I'm going to call you Sebastian,” now you've become attached to it. I think there's something in that. It's like, “O.K., we've identified it,” and then, “Oh, this is beautiful. I'll pay money for this, and a little more to protect it.”   Sharon: Anna, thank you very much for explaining this. It's not easy to explain. It gives me a little more appreciation for what I have. Thank you very much.   Anna: Thanks for asking me. Sometimes I don't know if I break it down in the best way, because I feel like there's a lot of little things going on, and because I am really passionate about what I do with the materials I use. So, sometimes it's hard to articulate that clearly, but I appreciate the chance to get to do that.   Sharon: Thank you very much. It's greatly, greatly appreciated.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.    

Anna Belak, Director of The Office of Cybersecurity Strategy at Sysdig, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss the findings in this year's newly-released Sysdig Global Cloud Threat Report. Anna explains the challenges that teams face in ensuring their cloud is truly secure, including quantity of data versus quality, automation, and more. Corey and Anna also discuss how much faster attacks are able to occur, and Anna gives practical insights into what can be done to make your cloud environment more secure. About AnnaAnna has nearly ten years of experience researching and advising organizations on cloud adoption with a focus on security best practices. As a Gartner Analyst, Anna spent six years helping more than 500 enterprises with vulnerability management, security monitoring, and DevSecOps initiatives. Anna's research and talks have been used to transform organizations' IT strategies and her research agenda helped to shape markets. Anna is the Director of The Office of Cybersecurity Strategy at Sysdig, using her deep understanding of the security industry to help IT professionals succeed in their cloud-native journey.Anna holds a PhD in Materials Engineering from the University of Michigan, where she developed computational methods to study solar cells and rechargeable batteries.Links Referenced: Sysdig: https://sysdig.com/ Sysdig Global Cloud Threat Report: https://www.sysdig.com/2023threatreport duckbillgroup.com: https://duckbillgroup.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. This promoted guest episode is brought to us by our friends over at Sysdig. And once again, I am pleased to welcome Anna Belak, whose title has changed since last we spoke to Director of the Office of Cybersecurity Strategy at Sysdig. Anna, welcome back, and congratulations on all the adjectives.Anna: [laugh]. Thank you so much. It's always a pleasure to hang out with you.Corey: So, we are here today to talk about a thing that has been written. And we're in that weird time thing where while we're discussing it at the moment, it's not yet public but will be when this releases. The Sysdig Global Cloud Threat Report, which I am a fan of. I like quite a bit the things it talks about and the ways it gets me thinking. There are things that I wind up agreeing with, there are things I wind up disagreeing with, and honestly, that makes it an awful lot of fun.But let's start with the whole, I guess, executive summary version of this. What is a Global Cloud Threat Report? Because to me, it seems like there's an argument to be made for just putting all three of the big hyperscale clouds on it and calling it a day because they're all threats to somebody.Anna: To be fair, we didn't think of the cloud providers themselves as the threats, but that's a hot take.Corey: Well, an even hotter one is what I've seen out of Azure lately with their complete lack of security issues, and the attackers somehow got a Microsoft signing key and the rest. I mean, at this point, I feel like Charlie Bell was brought in from Amazon to head cybersecurity and spent the last two years trapped in the executive washroom or something. But I can't prove it, of course. No, you target the idea of threats in a different direction, towards what people more commonly think of as threats.Anna: Yeah, the bad guys [laugh]. I mean, I would say that this is the reason you need a third-party security solution, buy my thing, blah, blah, blah, but [laugh], you know? Yeah, so we are—we have a threat research team like I think most self-respecting security vendors these days do. Ours, of course, is the best of them all, and they do all kinds of proactive and reactive research of what the bad guys are up to so that we can help our customers detect the bad guys, should they become their victims.Corey: So, there was a previous version of this report, and then you've, in long-standing tradition, decided to go ahead and update it. Unlike many of the terrible professors I've had in years past, it's not just slap a new version number, change the answers to some things, and force all the students to buy a new copy of the book every year because that's your retirement plan, you actually have updated data. What are the big changes you've seen since the previous incarnation of this?Anna: That is true. In fact, we start from scratch, more or less, every year, so all the data in this report is brand new. Obviously, it builds on our prior research. I'll say one clearly connected piece of data is, last year, we did a supply chain story that talked about the bad stuff you can find in Docker Hub. This time we upleveled that and we actually looked deeper into the nature of said bad stuff and how one might identify that an image is bad.And we found that 10% of the malware scary things inside images actually can't be detected by most of your static tools. So, if you're thinking, like, static analysis of any kind, SCA, vulnerability scanning, just, like, looking at the artifact itself before it's deployed, you actually wouldn't know it was bad. So, that's a pretty cool change, I would say [laugh].Corey: It is. And I'll also say what's going to probably sound like a throwaway joke, but I assure you it's not, where you're right, there is a lot of bad stuff on Docker Hub and part of the challenge is disambiguating malicious-bad and shitty-bad. But there are serious security concerns to code that is not intended to be awful, but it is anyway, and as a result, it leads to something that this report gets into a fair bit, which is the ideas of, effectively, lateralling from one vulnerability to another vulnerability to another vulnerability to the actual story. I mean, Capital One was a great example of this. They didn't do anything that was outright negligent like leaving an S3 bucket open; it was a determined sophisticated attacker who went from one mistake to one mistake to one mistake to, boom, keys to the kingdom. And that at least is a little bit more understandable even if it's not great when it's your bank.Anna: Yeah. I will point out that in the 10% that these things are really bad department, it was 10% of all things that were actually really bad. So, there were many things that were just shitty, but we had pared it down to the things that were definitely malicious, and then 10% of those things you could only identify if you had some sort of runtime analysis. Now, runtime analysis can be a lot of different things. It's just that if you're relying on preventive controls, you might have a bad time, like, one times out of ten, at least.But to your point about, kind of, chaining things together, I think that's actually the key, right? Like, that's the most interesting moment is, like, which things can they grab onto, and then where can they pivot? Because it's not like you barge in, open the door, like, you've won. Like, there's multiple steps to this process that are sometimes actually quite nuanced. And I'll call out that, like, one of the other findings we got this year that was pretty cool is that the time it takes to get through those steps is very short. There's a data point from Mandiant that says that the average dwell time for an attacker is 16 days. So like, two weeks, maybe. And in our data, the average dwell time for the attacks we saw was more like ten minutes.Corey: And that is going to be notable for folks. Like, there are times where I have—in years past; not recently, mind you—I have—oh, I'm trying to set something up, but I'm just going to open this port to the internet so I can access it from where I am right now and I'll go back and shut it in a couple hours. There was a time that that was generally okay. These days, everything happens so rapidly. I mean, I've sat there with a stopwatch after intentionally committing AWS credentials to Gif-ub—yes, that's how it's pronounced—and 22 seconds until the first probing attempt started hitting, which was basically impressively fast. Like, the last thing in the entire sequence was, and then I got an alert from Amazon that something might have been up, at which point it is too late. But it's a hard problem and I get it. People don't really appreciate just how quickly some of these things can evolve.Anna: Yeah. And I think the main reason, from at least what we see, is that the bad guys are into the cloud saying, right, like, we good guys love the automation, we love the programmability, we love the immutable infrastructure, like, all this stuff is awesome and it's enabling us to deliver cool products faster to our customers and make more money, but the bad guys are using all the same benefits to perpetrate their evil crimes. So, they're building automation, they're stringing cool things together. Like, they have scripts that they run that basically just scan whatever's out there to see what new things have shown up, and they also have scripts for reconnaissance that will just send a message back to them through Telegram or WhatsApp, letting them know like, “Hey, I've been running, you know, for however long and I see a cool thing you may be able to use.” Then the human being shows up and they're like, “All right. Let's see what I can do with this credential,” or with this misconfiguration or what have you. So, a lot of their initial, kind of, discovery into what they can get at is heavily automated, which is why it's so fast.Corey: I feel like, on some level, this is an unpleasant sharp shock for an awful lot of executives because, “Wait, what do you mean attackers can move that quickly? Our crap-ass engineering teams can't get anything released in less than three sprints. What gives?” And I don't think people have a real conception of just how fast bad actors are capable of moving.Anna: I think we said—actually [unintelligible 00:07:57] last year, but this is a business for them, right? They're trying to make money. And it's a little bleak to think about it, but these guys have a day job and this is it. Like, our guys have a day job, that's shipping code, and then they're supposed to also do security. The bad guys just have a day job of breaking your code and stealing your stuff.Corey: And on some level, it feels like you have a choice to make in which side you go at. And it's, like, which one of those do I spend more time in meetings with? And maybe that's not the most legitimate way to pick a job; ethics do come into play. But yeah, there's it takes a certain similar mindset, on some level, to be able to understand just how the security landscape looks from an attacker's point of view.Anna: I'll bet the bad guys have meetings too, actually.Corey: You know, you're probably right. Can you imagine the actual corporate life of a criminal syndicate? That's a sitcom in there that just needs to happen. But again, I'm sorry, I shouldn't talk about that. We're on a writer's strike this week, so there's that.One thing that came out of the report that makes perfect sense—and I've heard about it, but I haven't seen it myself and I wanted to dive into on this—specifically that automation has been weaponized in the cloud. Now, it's easy to misinterpret that the first time you read it—like I did—as, “Oh, you mean the bad guys have discovered the magic of shell scripts? No kidding.” It's more than that. You have reports of people using things like CloudFormation to stand up resources that are then used to attack the rest of the infrastructure.And it's, yeah, it makes perfect sense. Like, back in the data center days, it was a very determined attacker that went through the process of getting an evil server stuffed into a rack somewhere. But it's an API call away in cloud. I'm surprised we haven't seen this before.Anna: Yeah. We probably have; I don't know if we've documented before. And sometimes it's hard to know that that's what's happening, right? I will say that both of those things are true, right? Like the shell scripts are definitely there, and to your point about how long it takes, you know, to stopwatch, these things, on the short end of our dwell time data set, it's zero seconds. It's zero seconds from, like, A to B because it's just a script.And that's not surprising. But the comment about CloudFormation specifically, right, is we're talking about people, kind of, figuring out how to create policy in the cloud to prevent bad stuff from happening because they're reading all the best practices ebooks and whatever, watching the YouTube videos. And so, you understand that you can, say, write policy to prevent users from doing certain things, but sometimes we forget that, like, if you don't want a user to be able to attach user policy to something. If you didn't write the rule that says you also can't do that in CloudFormation, then suddenly, you can't do it in command line, but you can do it in CloudFormation. So there's, kind of, things like this, where for every kind of tool that allows this beautiful, programmable, immutable infrastructure, kind of, paradigm, you now have to make sure that you have security policies that prevent those same tools from being used against you and deploying evil things because you didn't explicitly say that you can't deploy evil things with this tool and that tool and that other tool in this other way. Because there's so many ways to do things, right?Corey: That's part of the weird thing, too, is that back when I was doing the sysadmin dance, it was a matter of taking a bunch of tools that did one thing well—or, you know, aspirationally well—and then chaining them together to achieve things. Increasingly, it feels like that's what cloud providers have become, where they have all these different services with different capabilities. One of the reasons that I now have a three-part article series, each one titled, “17 Ways to Run Containers on AWS,” adding up for a grand total of 51 different AWS services you can use to run containers with, it's not just there to make fun of the duplication of efforts because they're not all like that. But rather, each container can have bad acting behaviors inside of it. And are you monitoring what's going on across that entire threatened landscape?People were caught flat-footed to discover that, “Wait, Lambda functions can run malware? Wow.” Yes, effectively, anything that can bang two bits together and return a result is capable of running a lot of these malware packages. It's something that I'm not sure a number of, shall we say, non-forward-looking security teams have really wrapped their heads around yet.Anna: Yeah, I think that's fair. And I mean, I always want to be a little sympathetic to the folks, like, in the trenches because it's really hard to know all the 51 ways to run containers in the cloud and then to be like, oh, 51 ways to run malicious containers in the cloud. How do I prevent all of them, when you have a day job?Corey: One point that it makes in the report here is that about who the attacks seem to be targeting. And this is my own level of confusion that I imagine we can probably wind up eviscerating neatly. Back when I was running, like, random servers for me for various projects I was working on—or working at small companies—there was a school of thought in some quarters that, well, security is not that important to us. We don't have any interesting secrets. Nobody actually cares.This was untrue because a lot of these things are running on autopilot. They don't have enough insight to know that you're boring and you have to defend just like everyone else does. But then you see what can only be described as dumb attacks. Like there was the attack on Twitter a few years ago where a bunch of influential accounts tweeted about some bitcoin scam. It's like, you realize with the access you had, you had so many other opportunities to make orders of magnitude more money if you want to go down that path or to start geopolitical conflict or all kinds of other stuff. I have to wonder how much these days are attacks targeted versus well, we found an endpoint that doesn't seem to be very well secured; we're going to just exploit it.Anna: Yeah. So, that's correct intuition, I think. We see tons of opportunistic attacks, like, non-stop. But it's just, like, hitting everything, honeypots, real accounts, our accounts, your accounts, like, everything. Many of them are pretty easy to prevent, honestly, because it's like just mundane stuff, whatever, so if you have decent security hygiene, it's not a big deal.So, I wouldn't say that you're safe if you're not special because none of us are safe and none of us are that special. But what we've done here is we actually deliberately wanted to see what would be attacked as a fraction, right? So, we deployed a honey net that was indicative of what a financial org would look like or what a healthcare org would look like to see who would bite, right? And what we expected to see is that we probably—we thought the finance would be higher because obviously, that's always top tier. But for example, we thought that people would go for defense more or for health care.And we didn't see that. We only saw, like, 5% I think for health—very small numbers for healthcare and defense and very high numbers for financial services and telcos, like, around 30% apiece, right? And so, it's a little curious, right, because you—I can theorize as to why this is. Like, telcos and finance, obviously, it's where the money is, like, great [unintelligible 00:14:35] for fraud and all this other stuff, right?Defense, again, maybe people don't think defense and cloud. Healthcare arguably isn't that much in cloud, right? Like a lot of health healthcare stuff is on-premise, so if you see healthcare in cloud, maybe, you, like, think it's a honeypot or you don't [laugh] think it's worth your time? You know, whatever. Attacker logic is also weird. But yeah, we were deliberately trying to see which verticals were the most attractive for these folks. So, these attacks are infected targeted because the victim looked like the kind of thing they should be looking for if they were into that.Corey: And how does it look in that context? I mean, part of me secretly suspects that an awful lot of terrible startup names where they're so frugal they don't buy vowels, is a defense mechanism. Because you wind up with something that looks like a cat falling on a keyboard as a company name, no attacker is going to know what the hell your company does, so therefore, they're not going to target you specifically. Clearly, that's not quite how it works. But what are those signals that someone gets into an environment and says, “Ah, this is clearly healthcare,” versus telco versus something else?Anna: Right. I think you would be right. If you had, like… hhhijk as your company name, you probably wouldn't see a lot of targeted attacks. But where we're saying either the company and the name looks like a provider of that kind, and-slash-or they actually contain some sort of credential or data inside the honeypot that appears to be, like, a credential for a certain kind of thing. So, it really just creatively naming things so they look delicious.Corey: For a long time, it felt like—at least from a cloud perspective because this is how it manifested—the primary purpose of exploiting a company's cloud environment was to attempt to mine cryptocurrency within it. And I'm not sure if that was ever the actual primary approach, or rather, that was just the approach that people noticed because suddenly, their AWS bill looks a lot more like a telephone number than it did yesterday, so they can as a result, see that it's happening. Are these attacks these days, effectively, just to mine Bitcoin, if you'll pardon the oversimplification, or are they focused more on doing more damage in different ways?Anna: The analyst answer: it depends. So, again, to your point about how no one's safe, I think most attacks by volume are going to be opportunistic attacks, where people just want money. So, the easiest way right now to get money is to mine coins and then sell those coins, right? Obviously, if you have the infrastructure as a bad guy to get money in other ways, like, you could do extortion through ransomware, you might pursue that. But the overhead on ransomware is, like, really high, so most people would rather not if they can get money other ways.Now, because by volume APTs, or Advanced Persistent Threats, are much smaller than all the opportunistic guys, they may seem like they're not there or we don't see them. They're also usually better at attacking people than the opportunistic guys who will just spam everybody and see what they get, right? But even folks who are not necessarily nation states, right, like, we see a lot of attacks that probably aren't nation states, but they're quite sophisticated because we see them moving through the environment and pivoting and creating things and leveraging things that are quite interesting, right? So, one example is that they might go for a vulnerable EC2 instance—right, because maybe you have Log4J or whatever you have exposed—and then once they're there, they'll look around to see what else they can get. So, they'll pivot to the Cloud Control Plane, if it's possible, or they'll try to.And then in a real scenario we actually saw in an attack, they found a Terraform state file. So, somebody was using Terraform for provisioning whatever. And it requires an access key and this access key was just sitting in an S3 bucket somewhere. And I guess the victim didn't know or didn't think it was an issue. And so, this state file was extracted by the attacker and they found some [unintelligible 00:18:04], and they logged into whatever, and they were basically able to access a bunch of information they shouldn't have been able to see, and this turned into a data [extraction 00:18:11] scenario and some of that data was intellectual property.So, maybe that wasn't useful and maybe that wasn't their target. I don't know. Maybe they sold it. It's hard to say, but we increasingly see these patterns that are indicative of very sophisticated individuals who understand cloud deeply and who are trying to do intentionally malicious things other than just like, I popped [unintelligible 00:18:30]. I'm happy.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Calisti.Introducing Calisti. With Integrated Observability, Calisti provides a single pane of glass for accelerated root cause analysis and remediation. It can set, track, and ensure compliance with Service Level Objectives.Calisti provides secure application connectivity and management from datacenter to cloud, making it the perfect solution for businesses adopting cloud native microservice-based architectures. If you're running Apache Kafka, Calisti offers a turnkey solution with automated operations, seamless integrated security, high-availability, disaster recovery, and observability. So you can easily standardize and simplify microservice security, observability, and traffic management. Simplify your cloud-native operations with Calisti. Learn more about Calisti at calisti.app.Corey: I keep thinking of ransomware as being a corporate IT side of problem. It's a sort of thing you'll have on your Windows computers in your office, et cetera, et cetera, despite the fact that intellectually I know better. There were a number of vendors talking about ransomware attacks and encrypting data within S3, and initially, I thought, “Okay, this sounds like exactly a story people would talk about some that isn't really happening in order to sell their services to guard against it.” And then AWS did a blog post saying, “We have seen this, and here's what we have learned.” It's, “Oh, okay. So, it is in fact real.”But it's still taking me a bit of time to adapt to the new reality. I think part of this is also because back when I was hands-on-keyboard, I was unlucky, and as a result, I was kept from taking my aura near anything expensive or long-term like a database, and instead, it's like, get the stateless web servers. I can destroy those and we'll laugh and laugh about it. It'll be fine. But it's not going to destroy the company in the same way. But yeah, there are a lot of important assets in cloud that if you don't have those assets, you will no longer have a company.Anna: It's funny you say that because I became a theoretical physicist instead of experimental physicist because when I walked into the room, all the equipment would stop functioning.Corey: Oh, I like that quite a bit. It's one of those ideas of, yeah, your aura just winds up causing problems. Like, “You are under no circumstances to be within 200 feet of the SAN. Is that clear?” Yeah, same type of approach.One thing that I particularly like that showed up in the report that has honestly been near and dear to my heart is when you talk about mitigations around compromised credentials at one point when GitHub winds up having an AWS credential, AWS has scanners and a service that will catch that and apply a quarantine policy to those IAM credentials. The problem is, is that policy goes nowhere near far enough at all. I wound up having fun thought experiment a while back, not necessarily focusing on attacking the cloud so much as it was a denial of wallet attack. With a quarantined key, how much money can I cost? And I had to give up around the $26 billion dollar mark.And okay, that project can't ever see the light of day because it'll just cause grief for people. The problem is that the mitigations around trying to list the bad things and enumerate them mean that you're forever trying to enumerate something that is innumerable in and of itself. It feels like having a hard policy of once this is compromised, it's not good for anything would be the right answer. But people argue with me on that.Anna: I don't think I would argue with you on that. I do think there are moments here—again, I have to have sympathy for the folks who are actually trying to be administrators in the cloud, and—Corey: Oh God, it's hard.Anna: [sigh]. I mean, a lot of the things we choose to do as cloud users and cloud admins are things that are very hard to check for security goodness, if you will, right, like, the security quality of the naming convention of your user accounts or something like that, right? One of the things we actually saw in this report it—and it almost made me cry, like, how visceral my reaction was to this thing—is, there were basically admin accounts in this cloud environment, and they were named according to a specific convention, right? So, if you were, like, admincorey and adminanna, like, that, if you were an admin, you've got an adminanna account, right? And then there was a bunch of rules that were written, like, policies that would prevent you from doing things to those accounts so that they couldn't be compromised.Corey: Root is my user account. What are you talking about?Anna: Yeah, totally. Yeah [laugh]. They didn't. They did the thing. They did the good accounts. They didn't just use root everybody. So, everyone had their own account, it was very neat. And all that happened is, like, one person barely screwed up the naming of their account, right? Instead of a lowercase admin, they use an uppercase Admin, and so all of the policy written for lowercase admin didn't apply to them, and so the bad guy was able to attach all kinds of policies and basically create a key for themselves to then go have a field day with this admin account that they just found laying around.Now, they did nothing wrong. It's just, like, a very small mistake, but the attacker knew what to do, right? The attacker went and enumerated all these accounts or whatever, like, they see what's in the environment, they see the different one, and they go, “Oh, these suckers created a convention, and like, this joker didn't follow it. And I've won.” Right? So, they know to check with that stuff.But our guys have so much going on that they might forget, or they might just you know, typo, like, whatever. Who cares. Is it case-sensitive? I don't know. Is it not case-sensitive? Like, some policies are, some policies aren't. Do you remember which ones are and which ones aren't? And so, it's a little hopeless and painful as, like, a cloud defender to be faced with that, but that's sort of the reality.And right now we're in kind of like, ah, preventive security is the way to save yourself in cloud mode, and these things just, like, they don't come up on, like, the benchmarks and, like the configuration checks and all this other stuff that's just going, you know, canned, did you, you know, put MFA on your user account? Like, yeah, they did, but [laugh] like, they gave it a wrong name and now it's a bad na—so it's a little bleak.Corey: There's too much data. Filtering it becomes nightmarish. I mean, I have what I think of as the Dependabot problem, where every week, I get this giant list of Dependabot freaking out about every repository I have on Gif-ub and every dependency thereof. And some of the stuff hasn't been deployed in years and I don't care. Other stuff is, okay, I can see how that markdown parser could have malicious input passed to it, but it's for an internal project that only ever has very defined things allowed to talk to it so it doesn't actually matter to me.And then at some point, it's like, you expect to read, like, three-quarters of the way down the list of a thousand things, like, “Oh, and by the way, the basement's on fire.” And then have it keep going on where it's… filtering the signal from noise is such a problem that it feels like people only discover the warning signs after they're doing forensics when something has already happened rather than when it's early enough to be able to fix things. How do you get around that problem?Anna: It's brutal. I mean, I'm going to give you, like, my [unintelligible 00:24:28] vendor answer: “It's just easy. Just do what we said.” But I think [laugh] in all honesty, you do need to have some sort of risk prioritization. I'm not going to say I know the answer to what your algorithm has to be, but our approach of, like, oh, let's just look up the CVSS score on the vulnerabilities. Oh, look, 600,000 criticals. [laugh]. You know, you have to be able to filter past that, too. Like, is this being used by the application? Like, has this thing recently been accessed? Like, does this user have permissions? Have they used those permissions?Like, these kinds of questions that we know to ask, but you really have to kind of like force the security team, if you will, or the DevOps team or whatever team you have to actually, instead of looking at the list and crying, being like, how can we pare this list down? Like anything at all, just anything at all. And do that iteratively, right? And then on the other side, I mean, it's so… defense-in-depth, like, right? I know it's—I'm not supposed to say that because it's like, not cool anymore, but it's so true in cloud, like, you have to assume that all these controls will fail and so you have to come up with some—Corey: People will fail, processes will fail, controls will fail, and great—Anna: Yeah.Corey: How do you make sure that one of those things failing isn't winner-take-all?Anna: Yeah. And so, you need some detection mechanism to see when something's failed, and then you, like, have a resilience plan because you know, if you can detect that it's failed, but you can't do anything about it, I mean, big deal, [laugh] right? So detection—Corey: Good job. That's helpful.Anna: And response [laugh]. And response. Actually, mostly response yeah.Corey: Otherwise, it's, “Hey, guess what? You're not going to believe this, but…” it goes downhill from there rapidly.Anna: Just like, how shall we write the news headline for you?Corey: I have to ask, given that you have just completed this report and are absolutely in a place now where you have a sort of bird's eye view on the industry at just the right time, over the past year, we've seen significant macro changes affect an awful lot of different areas, the hiring markets, the VC funding markets, the stock markets. How has, I guess, the threat space evolved—if at all—during that same timeframe?Anna: I'm guessing the bad guys are paying more than the good guys.Corey: Well, there is part of that and I have to imagine also, crypto miners are less popular since sanity seems to have returned to an awful lot of people's perspective on money.Anna: I don't know if they are because, like, even fractions of cents are still cents once you add up enough of them. So, I don't think [they have stopped 00:26:49] mining.Corey: It remains perfectly economical to mine Bitcoin in the cloud, as long as you use someone else's account to do it.Anna: Exactly. Someone else's money is the best kind of money.Corey: That's the VC motto and then some.Anna: [laugh]. Right? I think it's tough, right? I don't want to be cliche and say, “Look, oh automate more stuff.” I do think that if you're in the security space on the blue team and you are, like, afraid of losing your job—you probably shouldn't be afraid if you do your job at all because there's a huge lack of talent, and that pool is not growing quick enough.Corey: You might be out of work for dozens of minutes.Anna: Yeah, maybe even an hour if you spend that hour, like, not emailing people, asking for work. So yeah, I mean, blah, blah, skill up in cloud, like, automate, et cetera. I think what I said earlier is actually the more important piece, right? We have all these really talented people sitting behind these dashboards, just trying to do the right thing, and we're not giving them good data, right? We're giving them too much data and it's not good quality data.So, whatever team you're on or whatever your business is, like, you will have to try to pare down that list of impossible tasks for all of your cloud-adjacent IT teams to a list of things that are actually going to reduce risk to your business. And I know that's really hard to do because you're asking now, folks who are very technical to communicate with folks who are very non-technical, to figure out how to, like, save the business money and keep the business running, and we've never been good at this, but there's no time like the present to actually get good at it.Corey: Let's see, what is it, the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now. Same sort of approach. I think that I'm seeing less of the obnoxious whining that I saw for years about how there's a complete shortage of security professionals out there. It's, “Okay, have you considered taking promising people and training them to do cybersecurity?” “No, that will take six months to get them productive.” Then they sit there for two years with the job rec open. It's hmm. Now, I'm not a professor here, but I also sort of feel like there might be a solution that benefits everyone. At least that rhetoric seems to have tamped down.Anna: I think you're probably right. There's a lot of awesome training out there too. So there's, like, folks giving stuff away for free that's super resources, so I think we are doing a good job of training up security folks. And everybody wants to be in security because it's so cool. But yeah, I think the data problem is this decade's struggle, more so than any other decades.Corey: I really want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me. If people want to learn more, where can they go to get their own copy of the report?Anna: It's been an absolute pleasure, Corey, and thanks, as always for having us. If you would like to check out the report—which you absolutely should—you can find it ungated at www.sysdig.com/2023threatreport.Corey: You had me at ungated. Thank you so much for taking the time today. It's appreciated. Anna Belak, Director of the Office of Cybersecurity Strategy at Sysdig. This promoted guest episode has been brought to us by our friends at Sysdig and I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an insulting comment that no doubt will compile into a malicious binary that I can grab off of Docker Hub.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

We're back with another episode in our Parenting series, in which we explore our relationships with our children. In today's episode, we're talking about behaviors. A lot of mainstream parenting advice focuses on children's behavior and the best ways to stop unwanted behaviors and increase desired ones. What that approach fails to acknowledge is that behaviors are always an expression of underlying needs. And without digging in to understand those needs, very often, the problem remains. By getting curious and figuring out our loved ones' true needs, we can solve problems together and strengthen our connection at the same time.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONS1. This week, notice your own behaviors and take a moment to contemplate the underlying need you're trying to address. Often we act or react the same way over and over without thinking because it's become a habit. Let's bring some intentionality back in by considering the need at play.2. Next week, with some more self-awareness under our belt, try narrating a choice or two a day, including the need you're taking care of, to your child/ren. Just a sentence or two, lightly, with no expectation of a response.3. Think of a behavior from your child/ren that is rubbing for you and list out some possible underlying needs they might be trying to satisfy. Use that lens the next time it happens and see what you learn. Did one of those possible needs make more sense?4. Thinking back over the last week or two, has something happened at home that impacted your child/ren's behavior? This can just help you bring awareness to context and not focus only on behaviors and their impact. TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. Navigating relationships can be challenging, because we're all so different. On the Living Joyfully Podcast, we dive into tools, strategies, and paradigm shifts to help you decrease conflicts and increase connection in your most important relationships. We talk about concepts like self-awareness, compassion, context, consent, and so much more.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes.We started with some foundational relationship ideas that are so helpful to have in your toolbox. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you would subscribe and share. We really appreciate your support as it grows. You can learn more about all that we're doing at LivingJoyfully.ca.Today's episode is part of the parenting series, and we're going to be looking at behaviors. Much of conventional parenting advice is centered around changing behaviors. That's usually attempted through punishments or rewards, which are really just two sides of the same coin of control. What's missing is an understanding of what the behaviors are telling us.Behaviors are at the surface. They are the clue to what's going on at a deeper level. When we focus our attention on that surface-level behavior, we're missing what's really happening for the child or person involved, and it's frustrating and usually fruitless practice to try to manipulate behavior without understanding the why behind it. This is especially true if you want to have a healthy, connected relationship with the person. It's true that we can change behavior through coercion and bribes, but often at the expense of our connection and our understanding of one another.PAM: Yeah, definitely behaviors stem from something. We have reasons for the things we do, as do the other adults in our life. And the same goals for children. They are people, too. Whether or not they can explain why they did something is different. Sometimes adults can't explain their reasoning either. But yes, the behaviors are clues to what's going on at a deeper level.ANNA: Right. It's important to understand that behaviors are outward expressions of needs. We do things in order to meet our needs. We make food when we're hungry. We may call a friend when we're upset. We may stomp through the house when we're mad to get some energy out. Those things we do are behaviors. When we understand that behind every behavior is a need, we start to see that the behaviors are a clue, just a piece of the puzzle.If we want to understand the person in front of us, we want to understand the need driving the behavior. If the behavior happens to be undesirable, for whatever reason, the most lasting way to get rid of it is to meet that need. And while we're focusing on parenting and children in this episode, it's really the same for every relationship.When we think of behavior as a clue, it changes the energy around difficult exchanges. We're bringing an open, curious mindset to the situation to solve the puzzle. What's driving this behavior that's causing problems? Problem behaviors can range from fighting with a sibling to not brushing their teeth.Turning first to HALT gives us a quick check-in about needs that often drive behaviors, and we've talked about it before, but just a quick reminder is to see if the person is hungry, angry, lonely, or tired. These are contextual things that impact behavior and meeting the need will stop that behavior quickly.The thing is, kids want to fit into a family system. It's biological, because it's needed for survival, but things can get in the way. Things that they may not be able to articulate, and that's what we want to help them discover. What's driving a particular behavior? Not only so we can eliminate the behavior that might be causing disconnection or even harm, but so that they can start to learn about how to recognize the need themselves and choose ways to get that need met that actually help them stay connected, which furthers the goal for them.And I would say HALT is probably at play with like 75% of issues. But there can be so many other things, too. A tough day at school, a mistake made earlier that they keep replaying, worrying about something in the future, stress in the family, worrying about things that are happening in the world.Needs can range from things like needing certainty, needing to feel safe, needing to feel connected, needing to process, needing to be alone, needing to be heard, and on and on.There isn't a formula, but the better you know one another, and as trust is built, the easier it will be to uncover the needs through inquiry and conversation, keeping in mind that these are not like long sit-down conversations, but gentle inquiry with the energy that you want to help and understand. Even just saying, "I'm here, I want to understand," can go a long way. Remembering there is always an underlying need, and that's where we find the solutions to address any behavior we're seeing.PAM: Yes. It is really helpful to remember that exploring behaviors to uncover needs is a process. It's often not solved in a one and done, long, drawn-out conversation. I love that phrase you used, gentle inquiry.So, maybe in one passing conversation we validate their frustration, how their action or reaction was their best choice in that moment. We love them. Maybe another time we share an observation like, it was the end of a long day and a few things had already gone sideways. Maybe next time we won't try to do another thing. And each time we can leave space for them to continue the conversation or to move on. And we can pay extra attention to any time they approach us, maybe wanting to talk about what happened. We want them to feel our support of their processing, whatever it looks like. And in the meantime, we can be doing our own processing as well.ANNA: Exactly. Whenever we're reacting to a behavior, it is a very good time to take a look at what's being triggered in us, because ultimately our reaction is our responsibility. Nobody is making us feel a certain way. We are responsible for how we feel. And that is a whole other episode that we'll get into because it's really an important nuance.But when we're seeing a disturbing behavior or behavior we don't understand, it's so helpful to look at the context. Our first inclination is to look at the person, what's wrong with them? Why are they being so difficult or mean? Why are they doing this thing? But so often, context is playing a role. How was their day? Did something happen at school? Is there something going on with friends? Are they worried about something that's coming up? Starting from a place of curiosity and assuming positive intent allows us to look beyond an offending behavior to see the person in front of us, a person who might be hurting or in need of help. And understanding the context helps us not to go to that place of condemning the person or the relationship, and it helps our children learn to understand and articulate how something is impacting them instead of just lashing out. They can start to give words to what they're feeling.And it's really helpful if we start using the language of context in our days. And I like to call it narrating. It's things like, it was such a long day today, I did not eat enough. And I can tell already I'm feeling snappy. I'm exhausted and I can tell I might lose my temper if I don't go to bed soon.Narrating what's going on for us does a couple of things. So, it helps those around us to know that our foul mood isn't about them, and it helps model for our children how to understand context and communicate about it and the impact of it with the people around them.Our job then becomes to listen when they communicate to us, when they tell us that they're too tired to do something or they've had a tough day, listen, and give them space or an extra cuddle or a listening ear. While we don't always understand why someone feels the way that they do, we want to trust in their knowledge and honor it. And again, it goes so far to helping build our connection and our understanding.PAM: Yes. Just to help them feel seen and heard in that moment. Because yeah, the underlying need is just more context that we can gain for that behavior in question.When we judge the behavior as bad, we send the message that we don't love them when they behave that way. So, they're feeling misunderstood. They're feeling unloved for who they are, and they're feeling alone, most likely. Because when we keep the conversation focused on the behavior, we miss the opportunity to help them process what happened, to maybe uncover the underlying need, or at least just get a little bit closer. It may take a while to find the route and then more time to find other ways to meet the need. Again, it's a process.And I definitely found sharing my own processing to be helpful, not in that big sit-down conversation way. But in sharing bits and pieces here and there, as in your great narrating examples. It definitely helps them see that my behaviors are about me, not about them, and also about how I process things. Not with the expectation that they process the same way. What it's communicating is that processing has value. It helps us understand ourselves and each other a bit better. It helps us move through the more challenging times, a bit more gracefully, with a little bit less damage to our connection. And that having hard times isn't just a kid thing. Adults have them, too. It's a human thing.ANNA: Oh my gosh. Absolutely. It's kind of strange, actually, how we seem to have this expectation that kids are going to always act with intention and make choices that we deem as right when so often, as adults we do not. So, it is an interesting kind of double standard to keep an eye out for.Sometimes the issue is a behavior that isn't happening. So, teeth not being brushed, homework not being done, plates not being brought back to the kitchen. When we're facing a behavior that isn't happening, it, it helps to ask what's making it hard. Again, bringing an open, curious mindset means we're open to hearing about their experience, and that helps us find solutions together. Because it's under the behavior or lack of that we gain a better understanding and find the solutions. Adjusting at that surface level really can only happen through rewards or punishment, and you not only impact the relationship, but you're much less likely to have a plan that sticks, because you haven't identified or addressed the needs or the barriers at all.And so, I remember reading this story from a popular psychologist who's a fan of gentle approach to parenting. And the question that was posed to her was, my child refuses to turn off the light, and I feel like it's a waste of energy and money, but nothing I'm saying is working. So, the advice of the psychologist was to remove the light bulb. And then she went on to explain that the solution worked because the child became scared and then learned her lesson.I think this is a really great example of where we can peel back and look at what it would look like to explore the underlying needs instead. So, if we don't get anywhere from asking a child specifically about a behavior or to stop doing it, I want to start looking more closely and watch for clues. It could be something where she simply forgets. If that's the case, well, we could work on figuring out a reminder together. Maybe a sign on the door would be enough. It could be that the light is hard to reach. She's leaving the room and books in her arms, and she can't reach the light. So, maybe rigging a string to the light or push button light might solve it.What's interesting in this case is that we were given the additional information that she was scared and that's why she quote "learned." So, knowing that she was scared, I would really want to explore that piece with her. Hey, do you feel safer with the light on? Is it that you don't like entering a dark room?I don't always love entering a dark room. A question along those lines can serve two purposes. It helps me get to the bottom of the behavior, but it also connects me with the child. She knows I'm interested in what her experience is, and then I can learn how she's seeing the world and what her perception of the situation is, and I can gain a better understanding of how our perceptions may differ.And at that point, we can look at, what about a nightlight that comes on automatically when the room gets dark or switch to LED-type lights that don't cost very much and meet my need for energy efficiency and meet her need for a light. And in the end, I might just say, you know what? Those few pennies a day to leave the light on, I'm okay with that for my child to feel safe.And I think what's key with any kind of conflict is to move beyond the surface. With this example, we have one person who wants the light on, one person who wants the light off. Those seem like diametrically-opposed views, but if we peel back and say, okay, but what's happening underneath of that? Then we can find solutions that feel good to both parties and that actually meet both of their needs, even though that solution was not the solution that worked, the turn it off or leave it on.And that's what I love about looking beyond the behavior to the underlying needs, because I think so often, we feel like we're faced with these situations that seem completely unsolvable. How are we ever going to bridge this gap? But when we start looking at the needs that are driving the behaviors, we can usually find, oh yeah, what about this? What about that? Oh yeah, that would work. It opens up this creativity piece that just is a game changer.PAM: Yes, because it's that creative piece that I love so much now. When we have two or more needs that are at first pointing in different directions, what are other possibilities? And I just love your light example. What if I don't want to scare my child into doing what I want them to do?And, as you were talking about that, it reminded me of the general parenting conversations around the idea of natural consequences. Sometimes parents seem to be setting up their kids for what they call natural consequences, almost wanting things to go wrong.It just feels like another guise for punishment to teach them a lesson. But there really are so many other possibilities. And we don't need to first find the right answer and then implement it. Each time we try something, we learn a little bit more through the experience. So, how did it go? Did it work for you? Did it work for me? What felt a bit off? Knowing what we know now, how might we tweak it?So, maybe at first it's like, oh yeah, I just forget to turn off the light. So, we put up the sign and it's still happening. Oh. So, maybe it's not just forgetfulness. And then we can dig a little bit deeper and a little bit deeper, and we try different things. And then eventually we really do get to that fear piece because subconsciously not wanting to turn it off doesn't bring to mind to remember to do it right. So, you can absolutely see how, at first we can think it's just a forgetfulness thing. But really once we get underneath and find what that root need is, it's a whole different set of possible solutions that can come up for us. Again, it is a process. I think that's a really big takeaway.ANNA: It really is. It's a process and one that I would say is so much more enjoyable than this kind of bickering and power play business. Because again, there's just such a different energy about, hey, let's try this, or, this isn't feeling good to me, so let's try these things. And yeah, okay, that worked, but that part didn't. It becomes this exchange we're having with the person in our life to get to a place where we both feel good.And I mean, that's just such a different energy than this punishment and reward and anger and bickering. And so, I would much rather spend my time working with my child than arguing. And that goes really for anybody. That's the happy, connecting work and it's just the energy that I want to cultivate in my home and in my life and with the people in my life.PAM: I know! Because the people in my family, they're the ones I want to feel like we're a team together trying to figure things out, not at odds with each other. It doesn't mean, again, that we don't argue, that behaviors and things don't happen that feel disconnecting or are hard for us. Yet, we can still bring that energy of figuring it out together. It doesn't need to come to a head as a conflict where one needs to be right and one needs to be wrong. Or, as a parent, I need to have power over my child and tell them to do my answer, because I think it's right and it's right because it would be the right answer for me. And our kids are different. And our kids are people. And what the underlying need for them that they are trying to meet is important and is valuable.And when we come at it with that energy of being a team and figuring it out together, oh my gosh. It changes the energy of the home. It increases connection, cultivates that connection that we want to have with them. And they learn so much more about themselves. And that's something that will last them their whole lifetime. ANNA: Yeah. It's really true. And it is so important to remember that what solution makes sense to us may not make sense to our child or to our spouse, or to our friend. We're all different. We're going to keep saying it. And it's not that our idea's wrong. It's the right answer for us and it's okay to present it and let's have it as a conversation piece, but always remembering that it may or may not resonate with the person in front of us. And if I want to learn and be connected to this person, I want to give space to understand where they're coming from. So important to remember that.Okay, so here are some quick questions and ideas to think about this week. So, this week, notice your own behaviors and take a moment to contemplate the underlying need that you're trying to address. Often we act or react in the same way over and over again without thinking about it because it's kind of become a habit. So, just bringing some intentionality back to considering the need at play, I think, can just be a really helpful process, because like, hey, what am I trying to meet with this need of this behavior that maybe even a behavior that I do all the time? So, I think that could bring that intentionality.PAM: Yeah. I do think it's a lot easier to start with us, because we're making the choices, we're doing our things and we're behaving in the ways that are working for us. But I do find it so interesting to start with things that maybe have become a habit for us. Because they were a habit back when, when that was maybe the best way for us to meet that need, but to take a little bit of time to remember, because once we have the habit and the action, we do that without thinking pretty much. That's kind of the definition of a habit. So, when we can take a moment to think, so why am I doing it that way? And going back to the underlying need, we may find that there is a new way or a different way to address it that makes more sense for us now. So, even if we don't extend it anywhere else, it can be helpful.ANNA: And it's going to help you communicate about it, too. So, if someone doesn't understand that behavior and you figure out what the need is, that's much easier to communicate to someone else than a behavior maybe they don't understand.Okay. So, number two, next week with some more self-awareness under our belt, try narrating a choice or two a day, including the need that you're taking care of, to your children. Give a sentence or two lightly, no expectation of a response from them. None of that, but just start to narrate a little bit more about your day and why you're feeling a certain way or why you're doing something and just see how that feels and how it lands and how that can definitely smooth things. It just helps people understand where we're coming from or what's going on for us.PAM: It made such a big difference for me, because I just always imagined people were reading my mind or everybody felt the same way. So, there's this reason why I'm doing this thing, why would anybody else wonder about it?ANNA: That's a big thing. I think we get told like, well, nobody can read your mind, but we really do think that people think the same way that we do. And so, of course they would make the same exact decision. No, they will not. Oh my goodness.Okay, so three, think of a behavior from your children that is rubbing for you. List out some possible underlying needs that they might be trying to satisfy with these behaviors. Use that lens the next time it happens and see what you learn. See how that fits. Did one of those possible needs make more sense? Did it help you understand why the behavior was happening? And so, I think that will be very interesting.And lastly, number four, thinking back over the last week or two, has something happened at home that impacted your child's behavior? This can help you bring awareness to the context, to not focus only on the behaviors and their impact. And so, with this question, what we're asking again is just, yeah, let's look at that broader context. And how could it have impacted the behavior of the child in front of you? And see how that feels to think about those pieces.PAM: Yeah, I mean, for me, once I would think bigger picture context for just regular every day behaviors of things going wrong. I really found that often I had more compassion or more empathy for the other person, child or adult, when I realized that we've been really busy these last couple of weeks. I've been having to wake them up in the morning to go do the things or to get ready for school or whatever it is. And maybe we discover it through HALT, if we're looking at it that way. Or maybe we're just looking at the bigger picture in general. But it's amazing how much that context influences behavior.ANNA: I think if anytime we feel that little tweak of a behavior that happens, can we just do a quick like, oh yeah, they had a lot of tests at school this week, or they had that big tournament over the weekend, or they didn't sleep well last night. Or they're worried about their grandmother or their whatever. Just that quick moment to think, you know what? There are some things that could be impacting why they're a little snippier, why I'm a little snippier, why we're all feeling that way.And again, then we can narrate and bring those things out into the open and we can say for ourselves, I didn't get a lot of sleep last night and I'm feeling really tired. Or I was worried about your grandmother, because I know she was having this whatever. And we can start having those conversations, which then just opens us up for that compassion for one another, for that greater understanding.PAM: And from there, just as we finish up, let's plant that seed of capacity, just as you were talking about it right there. Our children have capacity. And when all their things are going on around them or other stresses, they have less and less capacity. That was a big a-ha moment for me with my kids, too, and their behaviors was that something sets them off which would not have set them off yesterday or a week ago or a month ago. And all of a sudden I'm like, what the heck? Why is that bothering them? Why is that setting them off? But recognizing that there were a number of other things that went wrong during the day up to that point. And that they had basically just lost their capacity to absorb something else going sideways this day or this week. So, capacity applies to children just as much as it does adults.ANNA: It does! And how that energy and how bringing that compassion, how that person feels heard, how that child feels loved and understood and how it keeps us moving towards having a calmer home, a more comfortable environment. And anyway, okay, I'm going to stop. But there's so many things here. Obviously, we keep talking about it. So, thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time. Take care.

We're back with another episode in our Relationships series and we are excited to revisit the importance of connection. Fostering connection in our different relationships will look different, because every person is different, but what remains the same is that connection is an active process. Just being married or just being a parent does not mean that we automatically feel connected to our loved ones. But really focusing on connection makes our relationships stronger and so much more enjoyable.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.1. Take some time to think about what you love about your partner. What things light you up about them? How does it feel when you read this list? How does it change your energy towards them?2. Think about the connection you had/have with your parents? Did you feel truly seen and accepted for who you are? If not, how did that impact your feeling of connection?3. Have you viewed connection as a living process? What areas do you see that you would like to work on to improve your connection?4. What ways do you stay connected with your friends? Consider asking what things help your friends feel connected to you. You might be surprised.TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. Navigating relationships can be challenging because we are all so different. In this podcast, we dive into tools, strategies, and paradigm shifts to help you decrease conflict and increase connection in your most important relationships. We talk about concepts like self-awareness, compassion, context, consent, and so much more.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas that are so helpful to have in our toolbox. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you would subscribe and share. We really appreciate your support as it grows. You can also check out our website, LivingJoyfully.ca, if you're interested in relationship coaching or to see what we offer businesses using these same principles.Today's episode is part of our Relationship series, and we'll be talking about connection. Connection is a foundational lens through which I see the world. I think we're here to be in relationship and learn from that process. I think focusing on connection is what brings us the most joy and peace and opportunities for growth and learning as well.Finding the best ways to foster connection can look a bit different in the different types of relationships. So, today we're going to look at the idea related to our relationships with our partners, our children, and our friends. Something that's common across the relationships is that connection is an active process. We don't have strong connections just because we're married, a parent, or a friend. That's the surface-level connection, but the connection we're going to talk about is much deeper than that, and the root of it is truly seeing another person for who they are - honoring that and supporting that.With our partners, often many things brought us together, and as the relationship grows, the years go on and we fall into the rhythm of just moving through our days. And in that, sometimes we can lose sight of the person in front of us, of truly understanding who they are and what makes them tick. In the beginning, we're much more curious about all of that, and that curiosity and excitement is what feels so good, because they're feeling truly seen by us and we're feeling truly seen by them.And so, if things are feeling off, this is most likely the root. We've lost sight of, and the excitement about, who this person we love is. Having a strong connection is what helps a relationship weather the storms that life is going to throw. And while it may not have all of the excitement of the early days, it can settle into this deep trust and knowing. And again, connection is so much about being seen and accepted.And it's helpful to recognize, I think, that our culture tends to have a deficit focus, and if we fall into that in our relationships, it is a pretty quick path to disconnection. One of the first things I ask all my couples to do is to each write a list about what they love about the other person, to keep it on their phone or by their bedside, someplace they can read it every day, just steeping in that.Seeing all of the amazing things about our partner, it changes the energy we bring to them and the situations we're facing together. Because that's the thing. When we have that foundation of trust and connection, we're able to handle what comes along together instead of turning to defensiveness or blaming.We know we're different. We honor that and that we each bring something different, and from there we figure out how do we move through these harder times or this obstacle that's in front of us? Building connection with our partner is about seeing who they are now. And it may be different. We do all grow and change, but taking the time to see them and understand them is key. And finding ways to see each other will be different for each couple. It could be about having adventures together or working on projects together, just talking over a meal, being together and watching a show. It's going to be unique to each person, but understanding what helps your partner feel seen and loved and understood, and being able to communicate what helps you to feel the same, goes such a long way in creating this strong connection that we're talking about.PAM: Yes. It really, really does. And I so much love your point, that connection is an active process, not something that's a given based on some factor, context, like, "We're married." "You're my child." Being in a long-term relationship with your partner absolutely does not guarantee that you're strongly connected with each other. That takes ongoing effort. And yes, I feel more deeply connected to my partner when they see and love me for who I am right now. Sometimes it's easier to take that perspective first. We both grow and change over the years, but when they're curious about what I'm up to, how I'm feeling and what I think about things, that's when I'm feeling more connected to them.And that said, and that thing doesn't need to be all about conversations. There are people who just aren't into conversations as much, and as you mentioned, it can look different for different couples, because people truly are different. And then not only that, it can look different in different seasons for the same couple, because again, we grow and change, our shared interests wax and wane.But what can remain a priority throughout is building and maintaining connection with our partner, however it looks right now. We can always be curious about who they are and what they like to do. We can always express appreciation for their presence in our lives. And then, like what you mentioned, Anna, the things that we love about them, no matter how big or how small, we can always notice and appreciate those pieces.ANNA: Yeah. I mean, just turning our eye to seeing all the things they bring into our life can just really shift energy, especially if you're feeling stuck or disconnected or a little grumpy. And so, when we think about children, it's similar, but there are some differences. We have such a deep connection with our children, but part of maintaining that and bringing it to life for them is understanding that they are on their own path. They are unique human beings. And when we honor that and see them for who they are, that is when they feel the most connected to us.We can probably all think of how it would feel to be truly seen by our parents. Some of us have experienced that and many have not. In some families, love is conditional. And it's really the opposite of true connection. The blood connection remains, but they're left feeling misunderstood or not seen. And I've come to think of tending to this deeper connection as building a bridge, a bridge whose foundation is trust. Trust that we are okay and safe where we are, but that a strong, sturdy bridge is there, that we can both traverse back and forth as needed. Us going to them, them coming to us, sometimes meeting in the middle. The bridge is built with time and understanding, honoring our differences and celebrating them for exactly who they are.So often, I think when a parent wants to feel connected to a child, they will invite them to do something with them. "Hey, come over here to me. Let's go on a bike ride. Let's go camping. Come to the garden." And sometimes those invitations are met with excitement and sometimes groans and eye rolls, which can lead the parent feeling really disconnected or a little bit hurt, but the child's not rejecting you in those instances. They may not like those particular ideas. And when we understand them, what they love, what lights them up, what pressures they're under, we can go to them. We can meet them on their side of the bridge and fill both of our cups. And it means everything to have someone see us for who we are, to understand our capacity in that moment, to love us, even if we have different ideas and preferences. It just makes such a difference. PAM: I know! And I got goosebumps right now just thinking about that. And I really do love that bridge metaphor for connection in a relationship. The image that when it comes to connection, we can go to them, they can come to us, we can meet in the middle or anywhere in between. And that sometimes connecting can be happening when we're both hanging out on our own sides.That can seem a bit counterintuitive, the idea of actively connecting with someone while not being engaged with them. Yet, as we talked about earlier, connecting with someone can be about them feeling seen and heard. So, if your child is needing some space to be by themselves, it can feel connecting to them when they see us actively cultivating that space for them. So, maybe keeping their siblings occupied so that they aren't constantly being interrupted, maybe bringing them a drink and a snack and slipping out without trying to start a conversation.Can you just feel how validating and connecting that could be for them? Just turn it back on ourselves, how, when we're in that space where we want some alone time, how good that would feel. So, it's like, is that what we're needing? We would just feel so supported and seen and active connection will be built without that direct engagement with them.So, the other piece that I wanted to mention is that the ways we connect, the ways we build that bridge, can be different for each child in the same family, will likely be different for each child in the same family. Because that could also be hard if we have a picture in our mind about what connecting with a child looks like. "I'm going to do this. I'm going to do it right. How do we do it?"If we envision connection to look like doing activities together or hugging each other every day or reading books together or whatever that vision is, we can worry that we're not connected with a child if those happen to be things that they avoid, that they don't enjoy. But if we can release that vision and look at the ways each of our children actually enjoy connecting and being with us, we may discover that they are feeling connected and we just weren't seeing it at all.ANNA: Right. We can get in our heads about things so often, you know? And we are so different, and that absolutely includes our children. We really do need to let go of ideas of what we thought it would be like and embrace the child in front of us. And in doing that, what you'll find is that you learn so much more about them and about yourself.And so, we can see that connection isn't a formula, but again, it's this living process. And so, all those ideas, let's just set those aside and just really lean into, who are the people in my life and what does that look like for us to feel connected?And so, when we're thinking about our friends, again, so much is the same in that everyone, no matter what, I will say this a million more times, wants to be truly seen and heard. Most would also like to be understood, but even if that feels hard sometimes, we can honor people, give them the space to be who they are, to move through the world in the way that makes sense to them, even if it doesn't make sense to us, to be there for them, with them. I mean, it really just is the root of friendship, all of these relationships as well.So, I would say that most of us have friends that are different from ourselves. I'm an introvert and, maybe not surprisingly, many of my friends are extroverts. Extroverts make things easy for me in a lot of ways and they challenge me in that we see things so differently, but I can choose to love all parts of them, to see the gift in it, even if I need to sleep for 10 hours after a party and they're still raring to go, and they can appreciate that about me, and that's where we both feel seen and heard. That's where that connection just feels so nourishing.Giving our friends unconditional regard. Listening, being there, learning what helps make them feel connected and being able to communicate what works for us, too, is just all a part of it. And again, it is going to be unique to each person. Some friends need conversations to feel connected. Some need actual physical time together. Others feel comforted knowing that space and time can pass, but that we'll pick right back up and still have that closeness.Taking the time to know this about our friends just enhances those relationships and their ability to kind of nourish us and be a part of our close connections.PAM: Yes. That was such a big a-ha moment for me that my friends didn't need to be super similar to me. We could be different people that enjoy connecting with each other in various ways that feel good for each of us, and that I didn't need to find one super friend that was going to meet all of my connecting needs.I think growing up we can get the impression that we need one bestest, forever friend, that that's the goal when it comes to friendships. And while maybe that happens, it's not the only way to move through the world. It's not the only way to be in relationship with others, because people really are different and those differences matter a lot.It doesn't mean we can only be friends with people that are similar to us, but whether it's our partner, our children, or our friends, it's worth celebrating them for who they are and finding ways to connect with them that bring us closer together, that help them feel seen and heard, and us feel seen and heard.ANNA: Yes. Okay. So, something that just came up for me as you were saying that piece is, it's really important to understand that how we create connection and friendship may not be what our child needs. And so, what that brought to mind for me is, so often we can put on our kids, they don't have the best friend, or why don't they have a group of friends? They're not hanging out with this group of friends and doing all these things, because that's what we love. And why don't they have this best friend? I have this one best friend.And it's like, both, either, and none of it is. Fine. It's so much about what the child needs, the person needs, in their relationships. And so, again, look back at the person, talk to them. Are they happy with their relationships? Are they happy? Because so often, kids can be happy with their sibling relationships and with their family relationships for a big stretch of time. And then there comes a time where maybe they want outside relationships and maybe those are older people that are more mentors that they enjoy. So, I love just what you were saying, just like leaving space for all of it is part of how we build connection and just honor our differences in that way. PAM: And I love the age piece you brought up, too, because we don't need to put constraints on like, oh, we need to find somebody your age. I had wonderful and continue to have wonderful and fulfilling relationships with my children alongside partner and friends. When I could take that piece out and just get onto a level and focus on the connection and the relationship, all those little blood pieces or expectations of relationship just kind of fell away. And it was just about the connection and the joy that we could experience together.ANNA: Yeah. Just another, people are different. We all have our ways of connecting. So, connection is such a big topic and it's so important, and we really have just scratched the tiny surface of it. But I'm hoping that it's given some food for thought and a framework that connection is this active process. It's alive, and it's something that needs our attention to actually thrive.And so, here are a few questions to think about as you turn an eye to the connections in your life.Take some time to think about what you love about your partner. What things light you up about them? How does it feel when you read this list? How does it change your energy towards them when you read it and then go talk to them?And number two, think about the connection you have with or had with your parents. Did you feel truly seen and accepted for who you are at your core? And if not, how did that impact your feeling of connection with them and really even your understanding of yourself?PAM: I think that's a big one, because just to gain some experience with what connection feels like. As we're trying to figure out what it feels like, did I feel connection? Who have I felt connection with? How did it feel with my parents? Everybody says connection and you can have a sense of it, but what does it really feel like? And that's what we're trying to cultivate as we figure out all these different ways we might explore connecting with people.ANNA: That feeling like, okay, when I have somebody that sees me, oh, what does that feel like? How does that feel different when I don't feel seen and heard? So, yeah, I love that for kind of teasing out, what do I want in connection and how do I want to be in connection?Okay. So, have you viewed connection as a living process? What areas do you see that you would like to work on to improve your connection? So, I think this is important too, right? Just taking stock of the important people in your life. Hey, am I seeing them? Do I feel seen by them? Are there things that I want to change in those relationships? I think that could be really interesting to explore.PAM: Yeah, I think so, too. Just the whole idea of it being a living process. Something that can wax and wane and not beating ourselves up or having expectations. That feeling of growing disconnection is just a nice clue. It's like, oh, I want to a little more intentionally find or create or cultivate connecting moments with this person that I'm starting to feel a little bit of distance from, but I want to feel that deeper connection.ANNA: Because it's never about being hard on ourselves. It's just about that recognition like, oh, okay, I am feeling a little disconnected. What's going on there? And checking in about how that feels. And what kind of steps you want to take.Okay. So, last question is, what ways do you stay connected with your friends? Consider asking what things help your friends feel connected to you? Because it might be surprising. And again, just this interesting conversation, because I think sometimes we're just going through the motions of things.We don't actually realize that yeah, I do have a preference. I like to talk to my friends, or I like to see my friends, or I like to, whatever the thing is. I feel like the more we can verbalize what our actual needs are to someone, the better chance we have to truly connect and to be understood.Because nobody is a mind reader. Nobody knows what we're thinking. And, so often, we haven't even given it that much of a thought, but yet we're reacting and feeling it. And so, this is just a little call for some introspection and like, hey, I want to understand a little bit more about what makes me feel connected to someone.PAM: Yeah, I think that piece of just taking that moment to understand ourselves and understand what works what helps and again, playing with that. Because like you said, maybe we don't quite know yet, but we can try all sorts of things that, oh, you know, I think maybe this will feel connecting and then you go try it a couple of times and it's like, no, that's not as much fun or we didn't have as much time to engage with one another as I thought we might. But trying different things and playing around with them is perfect. ANNA: I love it. Okay. So, thank you so much for joining us and we look forward to next time.PAM: Yes! Talk to you soon. Bye.

We're back with another episode in our Parenting series, in which we explore our relationships with our children. In today's episode, we're talking about embracing all kinds of learning. Most of us grew up hearing that school is where learning happens and that the things that are taught in a school curriculum are the important things to learn. Honoring all the many ways that we can learn and the many unique interests that each person has is another way to deepen our connection with the people in our lives.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.1. What are some ways you see your child learning outside the classroom? What about outside the teacher-student dynamic?2. What does your child like to do at home? What interest(s) are they expressing through that activity? Can you think of more ways you can bring that interest into their days?3. Can you think of some ways to cultivate your child's burgeoning self-awareness? Recognizing they are a different person than you (check out episode 3), how can you help them learn more about how they tick? Can you give them some more space to explore that?4. How are you feeling about embracing and valuing the many kinds of learning that happen outside a classroom?TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast! We are happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes, particularly the first 14 in our foundations series, because we continue to reference these fundamental relationship ideas and tools pretty often in our conversations. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you could leave a rating and review wherever you listen. That definitely helps new people find us.So, today's episode is part of our Parenting series. The first episode in this series, episode 16, was about how we don't need to bring school home. Life is bigger than school, and a child is more than their grades. School can be school. In the next parenting episode, number 19, we talked about celebrating the child in front. That shift in perspective from trying to shape our child into our vision of the "perfect child" to discovering, supporting, and celebrating the unique child in front of us makes all the difference in cultivating strong and connected lifelong relationships with our kids.So, now we're going to bring both of these pieces together to explore and hopefully soon embrace not just school-based learning, but all kinds of learning. There are lots of ways of learning that don't look like a classroom, that don't require a hierarchical teacher-student dynamic. There are more informal environments like groups who gather around their interests in person or online. And people of any age can learn things on their own through watching videos online, reading books or websites, or hands on play and tinkering.Just because these activities don't look like a more formal classroom, doesn't mean the learning that's happening is any less real or valuable. Kids can learn things both in and out of the classroom. And if the classroom environment isn't a great match for their learning style, their learning accomplishments and environments outside the classroom can really help them feel accomplished and capable.ANNA: I think it's so helpful to think about learning outside of the school context. It's helpful for us as adults and then we can apply that to children, too. I think an a-ha moment can happen when we look at how we learn as adults. We tend to use a variety of methods, seeking out mentors, finding like-minded groups, reading books, researching, hands on, just digging in and doing it.We dive into our interests as they come up, and this could be deciding to keep chickens, building a shed, becoming a yoga instructor, an arborist. Each interest creates an opportunity for us to dive into that interest in a way that works for our brain.So, for me, I tend to like to read about something. I like to make some lists. I like to write down some ideas and then often talk to others who are doing the thing that I want to try. And then I want to start walking in that direction. I have other people in my family who are the dive in head first, start tinkering, touch it, do it, think about it. And then they want to seek some outside resources. And we're all just so different that way.But when we start to examine what that organic learning looks like for us as adults, not in a school environment, we can start to see that it's the same for kids. Then we can be more open to creating the conditions for them to pursue the things that they're interested in, in ways that suit who they are. It's back to being open and curious, right?There isn't just one way to learn, and that is especially true if one is thinking the only way to learn is from a teacher and a school. That can have its place. Great. And there can be room for all the varied ways in which humans learn things.PAM: Yes, yes, yes, yes. And I think not only is it helpful to embrace the all kinds of learning piece, it's helpful to embrace all kinds of interests. So, if the thing they love to do right now isn't directly related to a school subject or a prestigious career, it's still valuable. It's really fascinating to watch a kid in action when they're doing something they really enjoy. They learn so much, and it's almost as if it's by osmosis. They're just soaking it all in. That sponge metaphor is always around. And if they love it, it connects with them as a person. It has meaning for them, even if they or we can't yet explain what that is, but for now, it's coloring in a new area of the map of who they are as a person.And the thing is, when we look back, often we can see the threads through their interests. So, how their love of wrestling with you on the couch became an interest in karate, which became an interest in parkour, which became an interest in stunt acting. But it can be really hard to see those threads in the moment, and even more so to try to predict them into the future, right?But with the freedom to follow their interests, there's a good chance we'll be able to see those threads looking back. There is just so much value in embracing the things our children are interested in, and not just in the act of learning about the interest, but also in the development of a strong and connected parent-child relationship.And if embracing your child's interests is something that you find challenging, I do invite you to check out Roya Dedeaux's book, Connect with Courage, practical Ways to Release Fear and Find Joy in the Places Your Children Take You. So, Roya is a licensed marriage and family therapist, and she has spent the bulk of her academic and professional career learning how recreation, play, leisure, hobbies, interests and passions, impact, and are impacted by mental health. She digs into why wholeheartedly supporting your children's pursuit of their interests and passions is so important, and she shares some excellent tools to help us navigate that when it just feels a little off. It can be a new way to look at things.ANNA: It is really fun to find ways to support our kids and ourselves in digging into our interest areas, because like you said, there's so often a trail of interest that leads to so much learning and then get synthesized into the next pursuits. Looking back, we can see how those trails led to the broader interest or even a passion area, but we don't often see it in the moment. So, trusting that something is popping up for our kids for a reason, a reason we may not see now, is part of trusting them as a person.We can use it as a way to connect and to get to know our kids. What do they love? What brings a sparkle to their eye? What things do they choose to do with their time? Especially for kids in school these days, they have very little free time. So, if they're using that time towards an interest, it's important to them. And us supporting and facilitating that helps them feel heard and valued. And we just learn more about what makes them tick. And I think we all really want to know our children at that deep level. And they definitely want to be seen and known by us. You and I have both worked with plenty of adults who weren't seen or understood as kids, and it really leaves a mark.PAM: Oh yes. Yes. It really does. And I feel like that can come when the parents' focus is fixed on bringing the school home such that their highest priorities are doing the homework, studying for the test, so that you can excel at school, and then rounding out their childhood with extracurricular activities. There is just so little time and space left for kids to discover who they are and how they tick.And I would also argue that a solid level of this kind of self-awareness is as valuable as knowing a general set of facts and skills as they move into adulthood. It's how we find our unique place in the world. Understanding how we tick, how we can care for ourselves, and how we want to engage with the people around us is such valuable knowledge to have at hand as we navigate our lives. So many of us need to figure all this stuff out as adults, precisely because our parents thought excelling at schoolwas the answer to everything.So, embracing all kinds of learning for our kids will go a long way to helping them navigate their lives with just a bit more grace and compassion for themselves and for others.ANNA: So much! I know for me, so I did well in school and it really wasn't a bad experience for me, but I still had a lot of unpacking to do as an adult to figure out what I wanted out of life, what things were interests of mine, not through the lens of cultural or the expectations of the adults around me. And while I know this is a parenting episode, I just want to say it goes a really long way to support the interests of our partners and our friends, too. Trusting that something is pulling them towards an interest, even if it doesn't make sense to us on the surface, it means so much for the people to be supported in the things that they want to do. It really is a critical part of every relationship.PAM: Oh, exactly. Because in the bigger sense, absolutely, it applies to all people. All kinds of environments and all kinds of interests can lead to all kinds of learning at any age. And when we embrace all kinds of learning, our world is richer and more fun. Life is more interesting.We're not just all trying to get on that same path. Building our unique selves and learning how we tick and the things that we love to do and how we love to do them. Our kids just learn so much about themselves that they will find useful their whole lives. That was my experience, too.So, whether or not you had a good school experience or a more negative one, either way, it took up time and it took us down, or was trying to take us down a path that was more generalized as society thought was successful. And I had to do a lot of picking apart for many years to try and figure out who I was beyond that.Because then all of a sudden you're dumped into the adult world and it's like, okay, go do these things. And oh my gosh, to figure out. Do I like to do that? What do I like to do? How do I like to do it? To recognize that life didn't need to be a big ball of stress all the time. That was a big part of it.Okay, so here are some questions to ponder this week. Number one, what are some ways you see your child learning outside the classroom? And what about outside the teacher-student dynamic? Because, so often, that dynamic can also be replicated in places, just because it's conventionally seen as the way to learn. But yeah, just bring a new lens to it. How is your child learning? Think about what do they love to do? Regardless of whether or not you like it or whatever, when they're doing it, when they're doing something that lights them up, look for the learning, see the learning that's happening.ANNA: Yeah, it's there.PAM: It's there. It's there. So, what does your child like to do at home? Now, let's take that in a little bit of a different direction. What interests are they expressing through that activity? So, we're going to look a little bit deeper at it. Can you think of more ways that you can bring that interest into their days.So, maybe it's a show or a game or whatever it is that they like, if you can start to see what it is about that thing that they like. Is it the story they love? Is it the music they love? Is it the challenge? Whatever it is. And then think about more ways that you might be able to bring things into your lives that also meet that underlying interest.ANNA: Yeah, I love that.PAM: Number three. Can you think of some ways to cultivate your child's burgeoning self-awareness? Recognizing that they are a different person than you? And if you want to talk about that more, check out episode three. How can you help them learn more about how they tick? Can you give them some more space to explore that instead of always popping in to tell them the right way to feel the right way to do something, all those pieces? A little bit more space so that they can start making some choices and you can both start learning about how they would approach things, how they tick, what feels good to them.And our last question, how are you feeling about embracing and valuing the many kinds of learning that happen outside of a classroom?ANNA: Yeah, I think I want to say about this one, because I think most of us, as adults, have been through this very long school system and we kind of were sold that that's the way to learn. So, I feel like it was a process for me to start recognizing there were different ways to learn and what that looks like. And so, I do think it's really important to just think about your own journey with that and how it's playing out for you as an adult and how you've branched off in different directions or have you? So, I think it's interesting.PAM: Yeah, I think it's so fascinating to see, not just put that on a pedestal as the one right way to learn, that it's cool and it has its place and they're learning things there. But also it's just as value to be valuable to be learning all sorts of other things that make up them as a whole person rather than just what the curriculum says.Anyway, I think this is going to be a lot of fun for people to start exploring. I'm excited that we shared this, and I thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time. Bye!ANNA: Take care.

We're back with another episode in our Conflicts series and we're talking about triggers. A trigger is an intense, emotional, negative reaction to something, whether it's words or actions. Triggers often stem from previous trauma or childhood experiences. Getting a handle on our triggers, recognizing them, and learning to set them aside is an important first step to avoiding and minimizing conflict with our loved ones.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.1. Are you aware of your triggers? If not, look for times when you find yourself activated out of proportion with the situation. Knowing our triggers helps us be more intentional with our actions. 2. Can you think of a time when acting from a trigger impacted a conversation? What would it look like if you had a do over? 3. Have you noticed triggers in your partner? 4. What tools do you want to put in place with your partner to help each other navigate when one of you is feeling triggered?TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We're happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas that are so helpful to have in your toolbox. If you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you would subscribe and share. We really appreciate your support as it grows.This week's episode is part of our Conflicts series, and we're going to be talking about triggers. It's so helpful to understand ourselves and our triggers and hot buttons, noticing what comes up for us when conflict arises. Understanding how, in general, we deal with and feel about conflicts can help us be more intentional with our words and actions.So, for some context, a trigger is an intense, emotional negative reaction to something, whether it's words or actions. The clue that our reaction is in response to a trigger is that it's often out of step with the actual situation in front of us, and it will also bring about some intense feelings in our body. That's because triggers are actually about us, not at all about the situation in front of us. They often stem from previous trauma or childhood experiences, and they bring this confronting aspect and energy to the conflict for us that nobody else sees or feels.PAM: Yes. I think that's one of the most interesting aspects for me, that the intense reaction I'm feeling isn't being reflected in the other people. Like, why aren't they more upset about this? Why can't they see what's wrong with this situation? I'd get more upset, because it seemed like they didn't care and I'd feel almost compelled to open their eyes to what was going on. So, eventually I began using that mismatch as a clue that my reaction might have more to do with me than the actual situation at that moment. But it can be hard not to get immediately carried away by that rush of emotions. Right?ANNA: Exactly. Getting a handle on our triggers, recognizing them, and learning to set them aside is an important first step to avoiding and minimizing conflict with our loved ones. And to be clear, setting aside triggers doesn't mean ignoring them. Rather, it means taking the time to explore and process them outside of the conflict, to make sure we're truly reacting to the person and the situation in front of us.And the first step to that is to slow down. Give yourself some space to bring your awareness to the moment in front of you and see if others are maybe not reacting as strongly as you are, or if your reaction seems to not fit the situation. If you notice that, you can take a pause and take steps to calm your nervous system.So, somatic approaches are used to engage the relationship between mind, body, brain, and behavior. There are some great somatic tools out there that can help calm our nervous system, allowing us to act with intention again, a simple one being cold water on your wrist. So, excusing yourself to the bathroom for some quick cold water therapy can bring you back into the moment so that you can more intentionally face the situation in front of you. You can dig into whatever that trigger was bringing up later. Right now, you want to be present in the situation with your partner or child and not be confusing the situation with baggage from your past.And so, I want to talk about the 90-Second Rule, which helps us understand some of the physiology that's happening when we have any kind of reaction. So, the concept was introduced by Jill Bolte Taylor in her book, My Stroke of Insight. In it, she describes how whenever our brain circuitry is triggered, could be fear, joy, laughter, anger, the associated chemicals are released and it takes 90 seconds for them to flush out of the body. So, at that point, we have a choice. We can choose to rethink the thought that brought about that physiological response, thus triggering it again, which means we need to actively choose to stay in that place, a place that's now in the past. To keep those feelings of fear, anger, or even laughter going, we have to keep buying back into that thought every 90 seconds.And as you gain experience tuning into this process in your body, you'll start to notice the pause and recognize when you buy back into the thought. It's important to note though, that during the 90 seconds, you will most likely not be able to make a different choice. So, for example, once you've triggered an anger response, you need to let those chemicals course through you for the 90 seconds.Then you'll have a chance to bring yourself to the present moment and make a different choice.And while you may not be able to choose to feel differently during the 90 seconds, you can stop yourself from reacting from that anger, especially when you know that intensity of that moment will pass. It's so empowering to realize we have that control, that our anger doesn't control us, that we have choices along the way to react differently.And I actually had a really interesting example of this just two weeks ago. So, I was in a hotel room and the fire alarm went off. So, it's like wake the dead fire alarm in a hotel. I was in a deep, deep sleep. My whole body, like I sit bolt upright, I'm super activated, my heart's pounding. I'm like, what's happening? There were fire trucks, the whole nine yards, but about 20 seconds in, I realized that the alarm still wasn't going off. The fire trucks had passed by. There wasn't really a threat, but my body was still on high alert. Heart banging, all the things. I tried deep breathing. I tried any tool I can think of, but it was only until about the 90 seconds passed, I felt my body calm down and I took a deep breath and I was able to go right back to sleep.It was such a stark contrast and I think it was easier to notice in this situation, because I wasn't feeling the need to pull myself back into that state of alarm, because I knew that it wasn't that. I didn't need to buy back into it. I think it's harder when you're still mad at that person or that situation in front of you, but it's there. It happens. That pause is there and so, watch for it and it's pretty cool and kind of wild.PAM: Yeah. Yeah, that is such a great example. Yeah. I think it's just so helpful to play with some tools, to see which ones can help us to just calm our nervous system down a little bit in the stress of the moment.I mean, for me, a big one is deep breathing. So, a few deep breaths and not just like a deep breath, but concentrating on a slow out breath and envisioning the tension that I'm feeling washing out with my breath. Right? So, as you mentioned, often I'll excuse myself to go to the bathroom for a minute or two to do that. As you said, we may not be able to make a different choice in those 90 seconds, but we can try not to react. We can try to give ourselves space to let anger, fear, whatever it is, course through us for that period of time.And to highlight what you said, because I don't think it can be said enough, it's about releasing the intensity of the emotions that are brought out by the trigger so that we can focus on the situation or conversation at hand and later doing some work to dig deeper and learn more about the trigger and where it comes from. Because if we ignore the trigger, figuratively stuffing it down, rather than setting it aside to be explored later, chances are it's going to keep triggering just as forcefully each time similar circumstances arise. If we get pretty good at stuffing it down and moving on, we can start to feel like a martyr, which often ends up disconnecting us even more from family and friends and our loving relationships. And if we find it harder and harder to do that over time, we're kind of on our way to burnout if we're not going to process some of this stuff, right?ANNA: Oh my gosh. Exactly. Our triggers are pointing out areas that might need some healing or at the very least, some acknowledgement and attention. So, it isn't about ignoring them, it's just about choosing our reaction in the moment that best aligns with the person we want to be.I think it might be helpful for us to just take a minute to walk through some common triggers, remembering that they are going to be super specific to each person, because it's all about our past and the things that happened and how we process that. But it can give you an idea of the things to watch for and a big piece of that is also going to be that body feeling, so, watching for that.But one of them is getting in trouble. So, this is a trigger that many share from our time in school. Sometimes it can be from our family of origin reinforcing that as well. So, if you're in a situation where maybe someone's questioning you or maybe you realize that you made a mistake, you can have this all-over body reaction and it can cloud your judgment about the next steps that you take.But you can keep in mind that, at that point, you're reaching from a place that potentially is decades past, where as a child you had very little control. In the situation in front of you, most likely, mistakes are viewed very differently and are not caused for such intense reactions. So, calming your nervous system so that you can clearly talk about what happened and ask some clarifying questions is going to serve you and the relationship much more than this oversized reaction that really won't make any sense to the person in front of you.PAM: Yes, exactly. It won't make sense, as we talked about earlier. That can be very helpful too. A trigger that I've explored pretty often over the years is the fear of things going wrong. I thought I was being helpful in pointing out all the challenges that I envisioned that could come up with whatever the other person wanted to do or suggested. It's where my brain quickly went and eventually, I rationalized it as a skill. Let me tell you all the ways this can go wrong, so that you can come up with plans B, C, and D, or just realize right now it's too risky and move on to something else. See how much time I saved you?But when I realized that my help actually created more conflict, I got curious and dug deeper. I found fear consistently being triggered underneath my professed help. I noticed that the fear was generating a kind of tunnel vision for me, in which pretty much all I could see were the things that could go wrong. And when I shared those things, others didn't take them as me being helpful, but as me not trusting them to make reasonable choices or to navigate things if they took a new turn.I came to see that when I let fear trigger my reactions, when I tried to instill my fear into my partner or my children, even under the guise of being helpful, I was hijacking their experiences and learning. So, no wonder it often led to conflict.So, I've gotten much better at instead looking at all the fun and interesting things that could come from the thing they're wanting to. At seeing their choices through their eyes, like we talked about way back in episode four, or even just getting curious and asking them what they're excited about.I also got better at asking if they wanted to hear any feedback about challenges I thought might pop up. So again, it's not about stuffing that down, it's not about never thinking about it. It's like, okay, I'm going to set that aside for a bit and I'm going to look at this first, look at all the cool things and why they're very excited about this.So, what was really interesting to me was asking them if they wanted to hear that feedback and the conversations that came up around that were very eye-opening. I learned that, so often, they had already thought about that same challenge and had a plan in mind in case it happened. And what was super fascinating to me was that their thinking about that wasn't driven by fear. It was just part of thinking about how things might unfold. They were just more clues to me that fear didn't need to be part of the picture, part of the conversation.ANNA: And fear is such a big one for so many of us. And it is interesting, I think, to tune into any kind of habituated responses like that, especially if we notice they're causing ruptures or disconnections in our relationship, because I feel like, just like you found, just scratching beneath that surface will reveal some kind of trigger, some kind of fear, some kind of something that keeps bubbling up that we've kind of put a habit around that really isn't about the moment and just keeping us from looking at it.So, one of my triggers is around control. So, I don't like to be controlled, and if I get a whiff of someone trying to control me, I'm going to start bucking. The challenge for me is that my reaction is usually not in proportion to what is actually. So, I do my best to notice it rising in my body. For me, it's a very physical experience and I like to name it just for myself. So. I'm like, okay, you're starting to feel controlled. Let's take a closer look and see what's actually happening here.And so often, I mean, honestly, I'd say like 99% of the time, it's all about that other person, and they really aren't intending to control me or really even thinking all that much about me at all. And perhaps it's they're not feeling heard about something or supported about something. So, if I spend that time to really listen and understand where they're coming from, then we can find a path through whatever the issue is.But if I start bucking against this perceived control, then the conversation invariably goes sideways. And it's just so often, again, it's just this defensive reaction in me doesn't leave space for any learning about what's actually happening for that person in front of me.PAM: Exactly. Because so often, we can quickly shift the conversation to be about the trigger instead of what's going on in front of us. Like what? And they're like, what the heck happened?A bit of a twist on that for me is that agency is very important to me, meaning choosing what I do. So, what can happen often is I'm intending to do something soon, then someone, often my partner, asks me to do the thing. Well, suddenly, yes, that whole body rush. Suddenly it feels like I've lost my choice, my agency. And now I'll be doing the thing to meet their request rather than doing it because I want to do it, even though I was already planning to do it. Resistance just immediately floods through me, and I need to work through that first, find my choice again, and then do the thing that I wanted to do all along.What that also means is that I am careful with my asks of others so that they aren't received as demands and leave space for a cheerful, "Yeah, I was already planning to do that this afternoon."ANNA: Yeah, I have definitely felt this one, too. And again, for that person asking, either they may just be processing out loud, they may be trying to check things off of our joint list. They're not trying to take away my agency and it still feels like they are. So, recognizing that trigger just helps me not snap back at that and just like, okay, that's about them. I'm planning to do it. It's almost even hard to kind of explain why that triggered reaction so intense. Because it doesn't make sense to the situation.And that's, again, your clue to say, okay, this is not about this person or this situation. This is about something that stems from long ago, most likely.And so, I think another flip side of this is that it can be really helpful to recognize when someone you're talking to is triggered. So, that will help you not take their actions personally. You can see that they're bringing an energy from somewhere else into the conversation and at that point, you can help slow things down. That will give them permission to slow down as well. It's never a time to push a point when you have somebody who's triggered in front of you. It will not go well. Asking for a break for yourself can give them a moment to regroup. Sometimes there's space for gentle questions, but often it's just better to just slow things down and allow them to ground back into the moment.We don't want to meet that with defensiveness or I really think you'd see when you start looking, that's where so many conflicts happen.In our closest relationships, I think it can be helpful to talk about this beforehand and have a plan if one of you is triggered. You can each decide what would feel okay in the moment. Is it moving towards a break? Is it a code word? Is it a somatic tool? Having some tools handy will help you both navigate those moments, so that it doesn't spiral into a deeper conflict. Because when we're in our rational brains, we don't want some trigger from our childhood to be impacting this relationship in front of us.PAM: Yes. When we begin to recognize when we are feeling triggered, it does become easier to notice it happening with others. And vice versa, because maybe we notice it in others first, which then opens our eyes to recognizing when it's happening to us. But either way, our world gets bigger and our compassion grows, I feel.And I also found it really helpful to chat with others about triggering situations outside of the strain of conflict. So, as you mentioned, we can talk about ways to share observations that the person seems triggered without further triggering them or us. And that can definitely look different for different people.How would you prefer someone to share that kind of information with you? And we can chat about different tools to play with to help release some of that intensity and bring us back into the moment with clearer eyes. Which tools work better for each person? How can we keep those tools close at hand and easy to access? That is another fun thing to play with. If it's a spray, if it's a smell, we can keep those things in our pocket. Put them in a basket in a main room, those kinds of things, because these are positive things, these are helpful tools. It's not like, oh my gosh, I'm failing, so I need to go and do this thing. Right? Not that at all.And we can also chat about different ways to approach conversations that have a better chance of just not triggering the other person's trauma or bad memories or fears. We don't want to trigger that so that it rushes to mind for them. So, it could be something simple as a change of phrase or Tone, as you mentioned, or energy. That can sometimes be all it takes not to trigger a trigger in the first place.And we can talk about how each person likes to process things like challenges and triggers. So, are they or you more of an external processor wanting to talk about it as they or us peel back the layers? Or more of an internal processor wanting some quiet time and space to think things through on their own? Or is it more of a mix dependent on the circumstances?And of course, all of these are not one and done conversations. We'll learn more and tweak things along the way. We'll try out a tool. It helps. It doesn't help. Maybe it helps for a while and then it stops helping as much. But this deeper understanding of ourselves and our loved ones most definitely can help us navigate conflict and triggers with more grace and compassion.ANNA: Oh my gosh. Absolutely. I mean, it's a process, but with this greater understanding of ourselves, with this shared language that we're talking about, we'll be able to cultivate an environment where we can stay connected. We don't take things personally and we can remain open and curious.And I think, again, as we've been talking about, just bringing awareness changes what's happening in the home, because we have this language, we have this understanding, so it's not just running through the motions and kind of repeating the same fights, or repeating the same triggers or getting triggered every time something happens. So, I really love just these simple things that just bring new language and new awareness to the situations.PAM: Yeah. I feel, for me, the biggest thing was it helped me not take things personally. Understanding the nuances of all these different situations and how all the different pieces of who we are play into the relationship and conflict and conversations and triggers and all those pieces help me understand that, oh, this isn't all about me. And it's not them doing something wrong. It's just who we are. And that was so valuable to me in navigating relationships.ANNA: 100%. Okay, so let's talk about a few questions to consider this week. First, are you aware of your triggers? If not, look for themes when you find yourself activated, that seems a bit out of proportion with the situation. And be honest about that, because sometimes we're like, no, it was that serious. But the feeling in your body, you'll start to recognize it. Knowing our triggers really helps us be more intentional with our actions. PAM: It's feeling it in our body and like as you mentioned, it's like, no, it's not the trigger. If it happens multiple times. Like if it keeps happening over and over in similar situations like that, because the first 10 times, it's like, no, it's the thing. Yeah. Why does this thing keep happening?ANNA: It's not the thing! Oh my goodness. Okay. Number two. Can you think of a time when acting from a trigger impacted a conversation and what would it look like if you had a do-over? And I think that'll be interesting as you kind of recognize like, oh yeah, that tone, that something, is a trigger for me that then we kind of have this escalation or this same conflict.PAM: And I like the idea of thinking of it as a do-over, as in it helps us to more easily bring to mind choices in the moment. Because so often, when we're triggered, we just see the one thing. We're very focused on the one thing. So, we do our little bit of help to get us through those 90 seconds, through that first thing. And if we've thought about other possibilities, other ways we might choose to react, other kind of questions to ask in the situation versus declarations, if we've got that, it's closer to top of mind. So, over time, we can get to them a little bit quicker so that we can change, make a different choice, in recognition that we have a choice. And then as we talked about over time, we can tweak that and play with it.ANNA: Definitely. So, number three, have you noticed triggers in your partner? And so, this is interesting, because like you said, as we recognize it in ourselves, we start recognizing it in others, but it's also that repetition that you're talking about. So, it's like, oh, every time I ask them about this thing, they kind of get snappy with me or whatever. Okay. Most likely, that's not about your question or what's happening. There's a trigger that's being set off that would be helpful to understand. So, look for those, again, repeating things or repeating energy even, like the same energy's coming. What's the common denominator?PAM: Yes. I love that so much, because what we can do when we can start to recognize that repetitive reaction was seemingly over the top, because we can get stuck in, that is just over the top! I should be able to ask that question, so I just keep asking it again because their response is wrong.ANNA: If I just keep asking, it's going to get better.PAM: They'll figure it out. That might be a trigger. It's almost a response that they aren't able to control. That's when I can start thinking, oh, I'm going to play around with my tone, the energy, the timing of the question, the wording of the question, like there's so many ways that we can communicate something, that we can start to play with that and learn more. And then maybe in an off time have the conversation and ask them why are you feeling like that?ANNA: We're bringing more compassion to it. And again, these are the people that we love. This is who we want to be in these relationships, even if we get a little like, that's over the top and too much. Okay, so question four, what tools do you want to put in place with your partner to help each other navigate when one of you is feeling triggered?I really do think this is a cool conversation to have, especially if you notice some of these repeating fights or things happening, just like, "Hey, let's figure out, how do we take a timeout? How do we do that so it doesn't end up triggering that." Because we have abandonment triggers and then somebody feels if somebody's taking a break, then that can trigger something. But if we have some agreements ahead of time, if we have some plans in place, then we don't have to take it personally. It doesn't have to feel like that. And we can just give each other the space we need to be present and be intentional about what's happening in front of us.PAM: Yeah. I feel like with those conversations over time around it, it just helps lighten the weight too of the moment, to have somebody just recognize that we're triggered, recognize and not escalate back to us even. You could just absorb it for us and just show compassion, as you were saying. That's where we're going.ANNA: We want to cultivate that. For sure. Anyway, thank you so much for joining us this week and we look forward to next time. Take care!PAM: Bye.

For our first episode in our Relationships series, we are excited to dive into the idea of Bids for Connection. This term, coined by Drs. John and Julie Gottman, describes a wide range of attempts at connection and conversation that many of us don't even notice. We have the choice of turning towards a bid, turning away, and turning against. Noticing and intentionally responding to bids for connection from the people in our lives can be an easy way to increase connection and strengthen our relationships.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.1. Does looking back on the last week through the lens of bids for connection change how you see any of your interactions with your partner or children?2. This week, when your partner or child asks something of you, take a beat to consider the motivation behind the ask. Is it possible it's a bid for connection? How does that change your response?3. Have you found yourself turning against recent bids for connection? Are you feeling overwhelmed? What are some things you might do to help reduce your overwhelm?4. Do you recognize some of your recent requests of others as bids for connection? Did they turn toward you? Are there ways you might tweak your bids to invite a more positive response?TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are so happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to earlier episodes, particularly the first 14, our foundations series, because we continue to reference these fundamental relationship ideas and tools pretty often. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you could leave a rating and review wherever you listen. That definitely helps new people find us.So, today's episode is part of our Relationships series, and we're going to talk about bids for connection. This concept comes from Dr. John and Dr. Julie Gottman, who have been studying relationships for decades. And it can be a helpful lens through which to look at our interactions with the people we love.So, a bid for connection is a small action that shows that a person would like to connect with us. It could be like, "Look at this," or, "I'm exhausted." Or just a hug or a request for help. Or even I have heard these, a loud sigh. It's an opportunity for us to make a choice in how we respond. The Gottmans described three possible directions that we can take.So, "turning towards" means enthusiastically meeting the bid with connection, looking towards the person, responding with validation, increasing those feelings of connection. The person feels seen and heard, and the relationship is strengthened.Now "turning away" could look like staying mostly unengaged. So, maybe continuing to look at whatever you're working on, glancing up for a second to say, "Mm-hmm," or replying, "In a minute." Sometimes it feels like that's the most we can do, but over time this type of response often leads to disconnection in the relationship. The person feels a little rebuffed, like you're uninterested in them.And "turning against" is usually the result of actively being in a state of overwhelm. It looks like more aggressively rejecting the bid for connection. "Can't you see I'm busy?" "Oh, here we go. What now?" Or even just rolling your eyes rather obviously. Turning against the bid damages the relationship and makes it more likely that the person won't make future bids for connection with us.ANNA: Yeah. This concept has been so helpful for me. It helps me see the moments where more connection is possible. And I know the person that I want to be is one who turns towards those bids for connection from the people in my life. But we do get busy and in our heads, and it's not always super clear that it's a bid for connection, because it rarely looks like, "Hey, I want to spend time with you."And so, I do really like keeping this idea top of mind as much as I can so that I notice the more subtle cues that someone's looking to connect. Because it really is one of the easiest ways to keep relationships in a good place. Connection is the foundation of any healthy relationship, and the stronger and more secure the connection, the easier it is to navigate the ups and downs. So, finding ways to keep the connection strong is so helpful and we don't want to miss these easy ways to do it.PAM: Absolutely, absolutely. And something I've found helpful is using this idea of bids for connection to look at those requests from my partner or kids, like you said, they don't always look like what they are. And it's particularly when they request something that we know they could do themselves. So maybe they ask you to bring them a drink or a snack or bring them their phone. At first, we may think or even say, "You can get it. You're closer." But if we instead get curious, we can take a moment and ask ourselves, if it's something they can do for themselves, why are they asking me to do it?So, maybe it's about the act of getting the thing and we realize they're busy with what they're already doing, or we learn they're resting a sore leg, or that they're feeling a little bit under the weather. But if none of those fit, it may well be a bid for connection. Not that they can likely name it that way, as you said, but they are feeling a need to connect and this felt like a way that they could reach out.And it's super important to note that meeting the request is not the same as meeting that need for connection. So, for instance, getting the drink doesn't mean their need has been met. So, if you bring the drink and immediately go back to what you were doing, 10 minutes later they may ask you to bring them a snack. That's another clue that it's not really about the thing, it's about connecting with you. The request is actually an invitation for you to join them for a few minutes to connect, to ask about what they're up to, and listen to their answer, to wholeheartedly join them in their activity for a while, something that fills their connection cup.And it really helped me to remember they aren't trying to frustrate me. They are trying to meet a need. And the need for the drink is just a surface need. We know that, because they could meet it for themselves if it was just about that. The deeper need they're expressing is more likely for connection or maybe for reassurance that we value them and our relationship with them more than the thing that we're occupied with. It also helped me to remember that even seemingly negative behavior can be a bid for connection. So, particularly if regular bids have been ignored, they can get louder and more negative in an attempt to express how important it is for them to connect with you, to feel seen and heard by you.ANNA: I love how you mentioned those odd requests that clearly they could do for themselves. It's like, "You're a lot closer to the kitchen," or the light switch, but it doesn't take much scratching below the surface at all to see that it's not about the light or the glass of water at all, but about needing that moment of connection. And like you said, that need will most likely not be met by just getting the light or the drink. Especially if I add a tone to it, like, "Here's your drink," or, "Fine!" The requests will just keep coming, like you said, and they could turn a little bit more negative or they'll move on to some other way, which could just be even harder to understand.And for some reason this piece is kind of interesting to me because asking for something that they can do for themselves, we seem to have a harder time offering grace around this to children. If a neighbor were to ask us for water, we'd hop up and happily get it, but if our child does, we can start the, 'You can get it yourself," kind of lecture tone, and somehow then we'll tie it into this independence agenda or assigning some kind of future significance to this one little ask. "They're never going to learn to do things for themselves," which of course does not hold up to much scrutiny at all. But you see parents go there all the time. And the thing is, they really will learn to do the things for themselves. And most likely already know. But the request is, again, not about the water or the snack or the act itself. It's about this need to connect with you.And I just always want to keep in mind the person I want to be in the world. I want to show kindness and consideration to the people I love, really to most people. And what I find is that I do receive it back in turn. So, instead of thinking, they will never learn to do anything for themselves, you can reframe it as, they're learning how to be kind and a loving person in a relationship, an incredibly helpful skill that will serve them the rest of their life. Because the thing is, if I would do something for a friend or neighbor, why wouldn't I do it for the people I love most in the world? It was just such an interesting question for me to ask myself. And it always reminded me that I wanted to be giving my best to the people that I love. I want to assume positive intent, even if it isn't clear in that moment.And when we were talking before about HALT, I mentioned how the L for Lonely often ties into the bids for connection, and it's more along the lines of what you were talking about when it can kind of get a little surly or grumpy. If we have this grumpy tone, sighing, maybe some stomping about, it really can be about feeling disconnected. So, checking in and making sure, am I paying attention to what's happening? Have we been separate? Have I been engaged in my thing and maybe they're looking for me to kind of see what they're up to?I want to ward off any escalation that could then lead to a conflict, because again, if someone gets extra surly and then they get snappy, then we can get locked into some kind of a conflict. And I actually think that once you have this idea as just part of your relationship, as part of your family, as part of just the culture and the environment you're in, then the negative bids lessen, because you have some language and recognition around feeling disconnected and can then find those positive ways to connect.PAM: Yes. It gives us that language so that we can start just communicating more through it. Because connection just becomes part of the fabric of the family, I feel, weaving through all different kinds of moments. So, from those deeply connecting joyful ones, to disconnecting conflict, to bids for connection, and the varying responses in between. It's so rich. It's so rich. And then, like you said, when we can communicate more through that lens, there is less chance that it escalates to go off the rails. And of course, we can also make bids for connection, inviting our partner or child to join us in an activity or asking to join them in what they're doing, or opening up space for a conversation that's interesting to both of us. Just don't have expectations of their response or take their response personally, because that's not helpful. Their response is about them, not about you. That said, it doesn't mean ignoring it. If we're feeling ignored after a few attempts to reach out, it's helpful to have a conversation with them about how we're feeling. Because so often we're drawn to telling a negative story about what's going on, when actually, we're missing some information from their perspective.Maybe I say, "I've been trying to connect with you the last couple of days, asking you to watch that new show with me. I'm starting to feel like you don't want to spend time together," and their response may well be, "Oh, I just didn't want to watch that show. I heard it's boring. I didn't realize you were looking to connect. Would you like to go for a hike together on the weekend?" "Sure!" or not. Suggestions like this, it's an opening for a conversation so we have the opportunity for everybody to share what things are looking and feeling like to us and then we can find a path forward together that is meeting all of our needs.So, I just wanted to share that in my experience, the story that I've gotten stuck replaying in my head, that keeps me even more disconnected because I'm in my head, right? And it often really isn't how the other person is seeing it. So, it is so worth taking a step in and just saying, "Hey, something's up and I'm not seeing it this way. What do you think?" ANNA: The stories are so powerful and they so often derail us. Being more clear on stating the needs instead of jumping to a solution can help us define the ways that feel better together. The need in this situation being to spend time together or to feel connected. The proposed solution was watching the show. But we know that there's all kinds of ways that we can reconnect. And so, we don't want to tell a story around that.And again, I think just keeping this top of mind helps us communicate the need more. And so, instead of being like this kind of subterfuge like, "Okay, we're going to make this little bid," we can be more aware of, hey, I'm asking about the show because I want to be with them, so then I can be more clear. So, definitely watch for any stories you're telling. And whenever you find yourself assigning thoughts or feelings to another person, you are telling a story. So, when that story is making you feel disconnected, just take that step back and ask some questions. Be more clear about what your needs are, and then you'll get a better sense of what's going on for the other person. And you can both work on finding solutions that feel good to everyone to see if the hike makes sense, or if something else, another activity makes sense. But it's that conversation, right? We're starting the conversation and we're being more clear.It's hard when we have to guess about people. And again, I think just bringing this language into our lives helps us communicate more clearly and really understand better what is driving our behavior and the behavior of those around us. And it doesn't have to feel like such a mystery when we do that.PAM: Because people, particularly those we love, don't need to be the unpredictable puzzles we to make them out to be. And we don't need to be an unpredictable puzzle to the people that we love. That's relationships, connection, conversation, language. Just learning about each other is just so incredibly valuable.And these bids for connection, looking at things through this lens, I just found really helpful for me to just take the pulse of the relationship. So, here are some questions around bids for connection to ponder this week.Number one, does looking back on the last week or so through the lens of bids for connection change how you see any of your interactions with your partner or children? It's just really interesting to use this lens and look in and see, oh, you know, maybe they meant this. Maybe they were thinking this.And now, this week, when your partner or child asks something of you, try to take that beat to consider the motivation behind the ask. Is it possible it's a bid for connection? And how might that change your response?Number three, have you found yourself turning against recent bids for connection? Are you feeling overwhelmed? What are some things you might do to help reduce your overwhelm? So, recognizing that we're turning against bids for connection isn't about beating ourselves up or, oh my gosh, you did something wrong. No. It's a wonderful clue that, oh, there might be something for me to look at. Am I feeling overwhelmed? Right?ANNA: Right. And I would say it's often assigned to the relationship and it's often about the context. So, if you're rejecting bids for connection, you may just be like, ah, I'm really struggling with this person and they may be thinking, they don't love me, they don't want to be with me. When really it is this overwhelm and stress at work. There's some kind of contextual pieces like we've talked about before. So, just look at it as that clue, that little red flag of like, hey, I want to tune in a little more before this becomes a rupture in the relationship.PAM: Yes. Because there is so much subtext that we're communicating with our actions. So, recognizing that they may be seeing our actions differently than what we're meaning by them. So again, language and communication is so helpful with that.And our last question, do you recognize some of your recent requests of others as bids for connection? Did they turn towards you? Are there ways you might tweak your bids to invite a more positive response?Because you know the other person. Coming out and explaining, I really want to connect with you, spend some time with you, is that a helpful way to approach it? Or one thing that was really helpful to me was recognizing, you know what? What I really want is to connect with them. I don't really care how. So, that helped me get to a mindset where I'm happy to just sit by them and join them when they're doing their fun thing. I'm just going to soak in their presence and their joy, their laughter, whatever it is. And that's going to fill my cup. It doesn't need to be, I want to connect with this person and I want to do it through something that I love to do. We can put so much inside our relationship!ANNA: We can. But I think that's that self-awareness piece, too, and I think this is an important piece, because again, it's about the clarity of the need. So, right. You were able to identify in that situation, hey, just being close by feels good and just knowing what they're into and what they're laughing about, that feels great. And sometimes it might be, no, I want to have a deep conversation, or I want to talk about this thing that's coming up or that just happened. But then we can be more clear. So, then it's not, we're sitting down with the expectation of this big conversation when maybe the child or your partner's involved in something.So, again, more clarity around what your needs are, and I feel like that's our responsibility, right? To understand our needs and to communicate them clearly. And so, all of these things, and just looking through this lens of bids for connection over this next week, I think you'll see some of these pieces and then you can kind of fine tune like, hey, am I being clear and am I being open to what they're trying to communicate to me as well?PAM: Yes. Which brings up just one other piece. There's lots of pieces, but something that I learned over the years that clarity is just so incredibly valuable, because at first we can think, oh, you know, we love this person. They love me. They should understand me. They should know when I am feeling a little left out, or that I'm feeling like I want to connect. They should sense through my body language or something and they should make the effort. You know, that is a lot of expectations to put on someone. And can we really do that for everybody else?So, being clear about our needs doesn't say that they don't love us that much or whatever. They don't understand us. They don't know us. Being clear is just so valuable so that other people know where we are and can respond in ways that are helpful, because, you know what? They love us, too, and they also want to be, they're in relationship with us. It's not a one way thing. Right. But they need to know what's going on.ANNA: Yeah. None of us are mind readers and so, yeah, I love that point.PAM: Okay. Thank you so much everyone for listening, and we will see you next time. Bye!

This week, we're sharing the first episode in our Parenting series, in which we'll explore our relationships with our children. We are excited to bring this new lens into our conversation! We decided to start this series with school, because it's a significant part of many children's lives. Yet, we don't need to bring school home. When it comes to our relationships with our children, life can be so much bigger than school. We can choose to put it in perspective as just one aspect of their lives.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.1. How does it feel to contemplate prioritizing your child, and your relationship with your child, over their school grades?2. What was your school experience growing up? Considering what we talked about in episode 3 about how people are different—and children are people too—how is your child different from you as a child? How is their school experience different from yours?3. What are some aspects of school that you might consider not enforcing at home? Where might you consider your child's needs more important than the school's expectations? What might that look like?4. Does your story of your child change when you don't include how they perform at school? If so, how? Which feels better? Which feels more true to the person your child is?TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We're happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas in the first 14 episodes and have really enjoyed how they're building on one another.If you've already been enjoying the podcast, we would love it if you could share it with someone in your life that you think might benefit from contemplating these ideas. It's super easy to share. Just send them to podcast.show/living joyfully. They can listen and read the show notes right there, or they can pick their favorite podcast player and it'll take them to the show. So, thank you so much for helping us spread the word.And this is our first episode in our parenting series in which we'll explore our relationships with our children. And I am really excited to bring this lens into our conversation. Now, we decided to start the conversation in this series with school because it's a significant part of most children's lives. Yet, spoiler alert, we don't need to bring school home.When it comes to our relationships with our children, life is so much bigger than school. That said, it can be hard to remember that in the thick of things while you're figuring out the day-to-day logistics of getting kids to and from school, of packing lunches, of finishing homework, of getting paperwork signed. But it's true.When we can take a moment to release the artificial urgency that's often generated by those schedules (and check out episode eight, There's Plenty of Time, if that is feeling hard) it can be invigorating to remember that life is so much more than that. Our relationships with our children are bigger than navigating their school attendance. School often looms large in our lives, but we can choose to put it in perspective. We can choose to give our relationships with our children priority.We have evenings and weekends at our disposal where we can choose to give priority to connecting with our kids, to engaging with them, and having fun together. Because when we pull up to that bigger picture, our relationships with our children will last for our lifetime, whereas the compulsory school years are only a dozen or so years of that. If we prioritize school over our relationships with them during childhood, though, what shape will our relationships with them be in the many decades still to come?ANNA: Yes. It's really so empowering to step back a bit and realize that we can absolutely prioritize the relationship with our child, even in the context of school. And that said, it does have a way of creeping into all the aspects of life. So, I think it really will be fun to step back a bit and be really intentional about the choices we're making and put it through that priority lens that we talked about way back in episode one. Keeping that lens handy as we navigate things that feel like have-tos helps us take ownership for our choices and act with clear intention.PAM: Absolutely. Yeah. Just going back to what our priorities are, what our whys are, that can just be so helpful to bring everything into context.So, now that we have put the school years themselves into a clearer perspective against the lifelong relationship that we're going to have with our children, let's look more closely at your child right now. Because your child is so much more than their grades. You know them in a much bigger sense than the school does, than their teacher does. You see them in different situations doing different things. You see the things they love to do, because you're with them when they have the chance to do them, and how they almost effortlessly learn when they're engaged in those activities.You see them grow and change over years, a perspective that their teachers just don't have. You can help your child feel seen and heard and valued for who they are as a whole person. School is just one aspect of their lives.And you can see things through your children's eyes. You can see all the learning they're doing beyond the school curriculum and their official grades. You can see them using what they're learning day-to-day in their conversations, in their activities, in their skill development. Those are more meaningful expressions of learning in the bigger picture than grades on tests. And yes, absolutely, grades have value when it comes to college applications and things. Yet the relentless judgment of grades as a reflection of the child's value as a person over those school years can be so harmful.ANNA: So harmful. There was a thread I read recently on Instagram where adults were talking about their memories of school and it was so intense to read as people talked about how those years felt to them. And it was interesting, because it was a mix of people. Some had excelled at school and had done really well, others had given up on it, but all of them were impacted in ways that have stuck with them and have required some unpacking over subsequent decades. And I was like, wow. It was hard to read.I think many of the negative aspects can be mitigated by connected relationships in the family, though, (and I think that's why we wanted to talk about it) by parents seeing the child as a whole honoring what they love, especially if it falls outside of what's valued at school.When I work with teens and families, they're coming to me because things are getting pretty dire, and so often, it boils down to the teen not feeling seen, heard, or understood. The pressure, the weight that's being carried, is massive for these kids. And validation and understanding around that works wonders.Many of the parents have bought fully into the importance of grades and performing in a way that prioritizes school performance above all else. But when you're faced with your child's mental health suffering, it casts it in a very different light. You start to see the bigger picture and realize their mental health is actually the most important thing to you and for them.And, here we go again. There's plenty of time. There's not one path to success and happiness. As much as school tells us that they have the right path and the answer to all the questions, they don't. It's not one size fits all, even for attending college and pursuing more traditional paths. More and more colleges are valuing different paths and students who are engaged in the world pursuing passions.But most of all, we want our teens to feel strong, confident, and connected. Focusing back on the relationship to really know your whole child, what they love, what weight they're carrying, what brings connection to the teen years that many people feel is impossible. It isn't. It's there for us if we move beyond acting as the school's enforcer and instead prioritize our relationship and partnering together.The teen years are pretty amazing, and while that can be surprising to some people, they really can be when you focus on the relationships and seeing the amazing person in front of you, hearing them, understanding them, partnering with them.PAM: Yes, yes, yes. I will say the teen years can definitely be amazing. So, as we start playing with our thoughts in this direction, another aspect that I want to touch on is that school is a choice. So, for example, you may not want to homeschool your children, yet remembering that it's a valid option reminds us that sending our kids to school is a choice, certainly throughout most of the world. And that can feel so empowering.Like, we're not doing anything differently, but the minute we remember this is a choice. The shift! The energetic shift that we can feel. We can choose how our family engages with the educational system in so many ways beyond just the compulsory attendance aspect.So, one thing to be aware of is that starting to think about school as a choice may well bring up our own school experiences, as you were mentioning, Anna, and we can carry the impact of our experiences for many years. So, maybe we felt very controlled, like we needed to submit to the system's authority. Maybe we acquiesced, maybe we fought it, and maybe those feelings all come flooding back as soon as we step into a school, even as a parent. We instinctively feel we need to do what the teacher tells us. But no. We're adults. It is definitely worth the effort to process our experiences growing up so we better understand them and better understand ourselves.So, while our school experiences can inform our choices, they needn't spill over into our current interactions. Recognizing our power doesn't mean that we need to be confrontational or argumentative with teachers or administrators. It does mean that we don't need to thoughtlessly take on whatever expectations they try to throw our way. We get to choose. We can prioritize our relationships with our children. We can prioritize them, as people, and that can make a world of difference in our family's lives over our family's lifetime.ANNA: Oh my gosh. Exactly. And I think reminding ourselves of the choices is always so important. And it's not just homeschooling, it's the myriad of options and talking with your child about what they want out of the experience, because ultimately it is their life, their education.So, working with them to understand what drives them, what lights them up, how to fan those fires, instead of extinguishing them. We'll have a much better chance of helping them live their best life than thinking of traditional kind of one-size-fits-all school as the only option. And I want to acknowledge that it is scary to question some of these things that we've been handed. We've all been told is the only way.And we're not saying throw it all out. You can if you want, but it's more a call to just take a closer look, to look at our own experience in school. How did it serve us? And looking at how it didn't. How is it serving our child now? How is it falling short? Again, it's about bringing intention to those choices and making those choices together so that there's ownership and consent.PAM: Absolutely. Back to working together as a team. We are supporting them and helping them. And when there are challenges, we're helping them figure out ways to move through that, as well. I can just feel them feeling seen and heard when we have these conversations instead of shutting down any challenges they might be facing.So, lastly, I want to mention, what does it look like when we decide to thoughtfully consider how we engage with the school system? Because, as we said, we don't need to bring school home wholesale. We can choose our language around school. School can be a way to learn new things, but it's not the only way. School has a certain set of things they teach, the curriculum, but that by no means covers all the interesting things there are in the world that we and our kids can learn.Kids can learn interesting things in and out of the classroom. We don't need to value school learning over life learning, because learning is everywhere. And we know our kids. We can see through their eyes, recognize the things they're learning throughout their days. We can choose not to bring the ethos of school into our home, not to be a teacher substitute that values the generalized curriculum over the individual child. When our focus is instead on our child, on our relationship with them, and on learning wherever and whenever it happens, it's amazing the fun and engagement and just pure joy that can bubble up through our days.ANNA: Yes. I mean, what we say and the energy we bring to it has such a huge impact. By valuing all types of learning, we're showing them that the world is rich with opportunities. If they don't fit into the mold of school perfectly, that's okay. We see their value and the value of the way they learn. And maybe that's more hands-on or deep dives, things that don't work quite as well in school. Then they can put those things into perspective.And even if our child is excelling in the school environment, it's helpful to check in about what they love and exposing them to all the different ways to live, because maybe they're good at doing what's needed for the environment, but when that's over, they're left looking around wondering what they love, how they want to spend their time.And I think it's important to mention that schools have a deficit focus that kind of goes unnoticed, but it's big. They're trying to bring everybody to a center line of knowledge, and unfortunately it doesn't allow us to develop our strengths as we struggle in areas that we don't enjoy or pick up easily.And while we may not be able to change that approach in school, you can make sure that there are ample opportunities and support for your child to explore their passions, whether it be art, writing, math, sport, dance, plants, frogs, whatever is is. Together, you can find ways to help them dig into their passion and know that you see and support them doing things that they love, because no matter what the passion is, no matter how tiny and niche there are people out there making money pursuing it, creating careers and a life around it.Just exposing kids to all the ways there are to live in the world, all the paths, will help them so much as they try to find their own unique path. No one is served by the idea that there's one right way, one path to success. There are countless 40-year-olds out there struggling because they bought that story and now realize it's a myth. But again, connecting with your child or teen now, really hearing them, helping them find their path, not only preserves your relationship, but gives them a strong foundation from which to build a life they don't have to start unpacking in their forties. PAM: Yes, yes, yes. And I want to bring that up once more, what you were talking there about a child who is doing well at school, who's excelling at school. Because if we just leave that as the one right path, because they are successful on that one right path, who knows? When they graduate, it's like, oh, is that the path that I want now when there are so many other possibilities?So, even if things seem to be going "well" and smoothly, it's still beautiful and connecting and wonderful to help them also explore and have fun outside of school, find their passions. Or maybe it's a passion that they've found, something they love that they're enjoying through school.We can bring more of that into their lives outside, getting to know them and helping them feel seen and heard by you, not just through the school experience, as well.So, as you contemplate how you see school weaving through your family's lives, here are some questions that we hope you will consider. The first one is, how does it feel as you contemplate prioritizing your child and your relationship with your child over their school grades? Again, it's just like, contemplate for yourself. It's okay to ask yourself any question. Any question is okay.Number two. What was your school experience growing up? Considering what we talked about in episode three about how people are different and children are people, too, how is your child different from you as a child? How is their school experience different from yours? And I think this is a great one, because sometimes, as parents, we can have like this image of a child in our mind and that's what we're comparing our child against.But if we can let that drift away, that image of what we thought a child should be or could be ... We wanted our child to like the same things that we like, so we could do them together. If you can let go of all those pieces and just look at the child in front of you and think about how they're different, whether it's in their personalities, the things that they like to do, like all those pieces. Just look at that for a while and think about the differences. That can help us see through their eyes more easily than just our lens of how we're looking at things.Question three or group of questions number three, what are some aspects of school that you might consider not enforcing at home? Where might you consider your child's needs more important than the school's expectations? And what might that look like? Just play with that for a bit.ANNA: Yeah. And I want to add the, what does it feel like? here, too, because I'm guessing as even you contemplate this question, you're putting yourself back in that role again of, "But I have to," and so then that's cool to notice, like, "Okay, I am bringing some of that into this exchange with my child and their relationship to school." And so, yeah, just contemplating those questions and how they feel and what it might look like, I think, would be really interesting.PAM: Yeah, that's the wonderful thing and why we keep talking about energy and how we're feeling, because often our brain doesn't yet maybe notice or want to think about the thing, but if we notice our body's tensing up, that's just a clue that there's something there. Or we notice thinking about something, oh, that feels lighter all of a sudden. I didn't know I wasn't breathing deeply! Wonderful, wonderful clues.Okay, so our last question. Does your story of your child change when you don't include how they perform at school? If so, how does it change? And which story feels better? Which feels more true to the person that your child is? I love that one. ANNA: Me, too. Because so often, that is the only way we interact with children is, what's your favorite subject? What'd you do at school today? And so, really, is that the story you're telling of your child?Is it steeped in this school or are you seeing these other aspects of them?PAM: I remember when I first noticed that the first question other adults in the world asked my kids when they met them was, what grade are you in? And that's fine. I'm in grade whatever. Yet, oh my gosh, the lens of school is ubiquitous. It is everywhere. And your child is more than their school attendance and you don't need to bring that home. It's absolutely an aspect of their lives, but it's not all their lives and it doesn't define who they are as a whole.ANNA: And I guarantee you that they want to be seen as more than that. Even if they love school, they want to be seen as more than that. And so, that will just be really fun to check in and see.PAM: Yes. I love that. Thank you so much for listening everyone, and we will see you next time. Bye!ANNA: Bye-bye. Take care.

Let's talk about cognitive biases. Commitment bias, confirmation bias, and negativity bias are common thinking patterns that can lead to errors in judgment as well as conflict in our relationships. We dive into how they show up in our everyday lives and how becoming aware of our brain's tendencies can allow us to be more open and curious and to find more joy and connection in our relationships. We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.Examine your thoughts around quitting, sunk costs, and commitments. Are those thoughts serving you? Do you and your partner see them in the same way?Describe a time when confirmation bias stopped you from seeing someone else's point of view.Do the Joy Writing exercise for your partner or another loved one. Reflect on how it felt and how it changes your energy when you read it.TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We're happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas and really have enjoyed how they're kind of playing off each other and building on one another. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you could leave a rating and review. That definitely helps new people find us.In today's episode, we're gonna talk about a few common cognitive biases that trip us up as we navigate our relationships. Cognitive biases are basically mental shortcuts that our brains will take as they try to quickly process the vast amounts of information in our very complex world.So, let's start with commitment bias and the sunk cost fallacy. The sunk cost fallacy is associated with the commitment bias, where we continue to support our past decisions despite new evidence suggesting that it isn't really the best course of action. We fail to take into account that whatever time, effort, or money that we've already expended will not be recovered.And this could be something as simple as finishing a meal or a movie one of you isn't enjoying, because you've already paid for it, or something bigger, like finishing a college program even though, at this point, you're pretty sure you don't want to work in that field at all, but you stay because you've committed to it.This can cause friction in our relationships when we have different ideas about money, commitment, and what those things mean. Very often, the idea to stick it out at all costs was pretty much ingrained in us as children. Somehow we're a failure if we quit or we would be wasting the money, so we have to stick with it to make these expenditures worthwhile.It's really worth examining those beliefs if you see them coming into play in your relationships. Understanding sunk costs helps us see that the money is spent, period. The choice then becomes whether I want to take what I've learned about myself and move on to something else I can enjoy or stay with something that I don't.Take the money out of the equation because it's already gone, but what can I get out of that situation? What I get out of is up to me. Just learning that we don't like something has value. Letting go of judging ourselves or our partners as failing when we decide to quit something goes a long way to learning more about each other. And providing unconditional support as we figure out what we want to do with our time.The conversation is so much more valuable when we're looking at the nuances of the situation. And this also comes into play big time with children, doesn't it?PAM: Oh, it definitely does. We think we're teaching our children something positive by insisting they stick it out and follow through on their commitments when we sign them up for a rec class or they join a team. But the message they're often absorbing is, don't try new things unless you're really sure you're going to like it, or you might get stuck having to do something you really dislike.It can be so helpful to frame these kinds of choices, not as commitments, but as opportunities to try something new. You're paying for the opportunity for them to try it out and discover if it's as interesting as they imagine. Insisting someone not quit doing something they're not enjoying or just judging them negatively when they do is disconnecting and damaging to the relationship. And to what end? Because they definitely learn something more about themselves through discovering they don't like the thing and they can use that knowledge along with the time they freed up to pursue something else more in alignment with their interests.So, when you think about it in the bigger picture, they'll find the things that they love more quickly this way. And it's in finding the things they really enjoy where you'll see commitment in action. Even when things get frustrating or inconvenient, they'll show up. So, it's not about teaching commitment, it's about finding the things they are excited to commit to.And that definitely applies to us as well. Sometimes it's easier to think about it in the context of another person, but then to make that shift to realize this applies to us. We don't need to pressure ourselves to follow through on commitments if our enthusiasm has waned and we are ready to move on.Instead, let's celebrate that. Yay! Look what we know. We know more about what we like and what we don't like, or even more about the environments in which we're comfortable. That's another big piece of it too, right?ANNA: Yes. I love celebrating when we're learning more about who we are and how we want to move through the world. And I love the idea of paying for the opportunity. It's such a helpful framework. We're always learning and I want to support my kids, my partner, and myself in trying things that seemed interesting to us.I didn't need to have an attachment to the outcome, because no matter what, there will be learning, even if it's just, I really don't like this particular activity.And so, it goes back to conversations too though, because we can talk about the money involved in trying something and we can see if there's ways to trial it first, and what would be some of our other options. But I didn't want to get stuck only looking at decisions through the lens of how much it costs.It's one part, but it's not the only, and I usually found it wasn't the most important part.And it was actually my finance major husband who first told me about sunk costs when one of our children wanted to quit a class they were taking and it made honoring where they were and what they were learning so much easier, because I could let go of any guilt or baggage around the money part. Because the money's already spent, and again, this was work I needed to do for myself, as well. Giving myself permission to try something, even if I wasn't perfect at it, even if I decided at any point along the way that it wasn't working for me.PAM: Yeah, it's interesting how it's often easier to give grace to other people than it is to give it to ourselves, but we're people too. And I wanted just to bring back that point, when we talk about sunk costs, it's not about ignoring the money. It is once it's spent, but it doesn't mean we don't have that conversation up front. Maybe this is gonna be a big chunk of our budget and we want to look at all sorts of possibilities. If there is a way to get some experience with it before spending the larger chunk, that can be a valid way, too. Again, back to the conversations.ANNA: That's the richness of the conversations and staying connected and the baby steps from last week. It all wraps together.PAM: Okay, so now let's talk about the confirmation bias, which is the tendency to process information by looking for or interpreting information that is consistent with one's existing beliefs. This biased approach to decision making is largely unintentional and often results in ignoring what feels like inconsistent information. "That doesn't make sense. I'm going to toss that."It's hard to be open and curious when we're filtering information through our existing beliefs. This can sow disconnection in our relationship in a few ways, like discounting the other person's ideas or always bringing the same old ideas to our conversations. We are less creative.And in conversations, we tend to listen to the other person with an eye to picking out the bits that match how we see this situation, which we talked about a couple of weeks ago as well. And we're just waiting until we can jump in with those pieces, rather than hearing the full picture of what they're sharing.When our confirmation bias is in full swing, we are not seeing that bigger picture, are we?ANNA: Not at all. And it really reminds me of our talk about seeing through their eyes from episode four. If we're only seeing through our eyes, we already know what we're looking for and it colors everything. I think this comes into play when we're upset with our partner or children, as well. We tend to see things that confirm our ideas about them.With our partner, it could be reading into every little behavior and thinking, see, they don't care about my feelings. Hello, writing stories! And with kids it can be seeing dysregulation and blaming a video game, because we're thinking that video games are bad, when the dysregulation could just be a need for connection, some food, or some rest, something carried over from school that morning.With our partners and children, we don't want to be writing stories about the meaning of things. If we have an idea that's causing distress, they don't love me, they don't trust me, they don't like this or that, ask them. Open the conversation and enter it with that open and curious mindset we talked about earlier in the month. Upsets can rarely survive the light of inquiry, openness, and understanding.PAM: Yes. The stories we tell ourselves, right? So, for me, the clue is noticing when I'm telling myself a story about someone else. That's when I need to step carefully, because I am not them. I don't know all their personal history or the extenuating circumstances they're seeing right now. I don't know they were tired or feeling frustrated by something completely unrelated. I don't know until I ask.Because when I'm telling myself a story, it is pretty natural for it to be all about me. And definitely that works pretty well when I am talking about myself, how I'm feeling, how I'm seeing these things. But it can take me down all sorts of unhelpful paths when I'm making assumptions about how others are seeing me.As you say, it is so much better to have the conversation with them and just check in and see what's going on. ANNA: Yes, just get out of our head and get into that moment with our partners and loved ones.Okay, so the last one we want to touch on today is the negativity bias. So, the negativity bias is the tendency to remember negative events more starkly and more frequently than positive events.So, this isn't inherently problematic since it's a great way to learn from mistakes and avoid negative experiences in the future. You can see it's actually a survival skill. We quickly learn what can hurt us and what's dangerous, and we actively avoid those things. Our brain is wired to give us those things at a higher priority in order to keep us safe. We haven't really evolved out of that primal need to evaluate safety in our environment.But here's the thing. Most of us don't have tigers lurking around the corner, so bringing that intense survival energy to things like our relationships can cause a lot of heartache. We don't want to constantly be thinking about every negative thing that has happened. It keeps us stuck in the past and doesn't give our loved ones a chance to grow and change.PAM: Everybody just sit with that for just a little bit. It is so true that negative experiences stay with us longer and are recalled more quickly in a challenging moment. And, as you say, there's reasons for that.And not only does it play out on that personal level. We see it on a societal level, as well. Society in general is focused on the negative things that are happening. So often, those are the stories that are widely in the news and on social media. We find ourselves surrounded by negative stories, which fills us with more negative events to recall at a moment's notice, round and round. It can become a lens through which we see the world. Our negativity bias seeping into our confirmation bias.ANNA: Yep. And bringing awareness to these biases helps us understand that we need to be very intentional about changing our focus. Things like joy writing and gratitude practices can help bring our focus to all the things we love, all the things that are actually working.So, when I'm working with couples, I ask them to do a joy writing exercise. Basically, you each write down a list of things you love about the other, what you love about the relationship, beautiful moments, lovely gestures, things that can fill you with love when you're thinking about them. Keep it handy, have it on your phone or somewhere you can read it daily.Rereading it changes our energy and it changes how we interact with our partner, how we see our relationship. It keeps the focus on all the wonderful things there and it fosters that connection. And from a place of connection, we can move through the bumps of life with more ease. PAM: That is so, so true. Just the act of remembering the good side, alongside the challenges. It doesn't mean ignoring the challenges. It's not, let's just pack those in a box and forget about them. But remembering that so much of our lives are all these good things, too.So, as you mentioned, gratitude practices can also foster that loving energy towards our partner and our kids. We can make a point of writing down a few things that we're grateful for related to our partner and kids each day. It need only take a couple of minutes and we can share it with them too.This practice helps us notice the positive bits in our day and in our relationships, because they are there. And it's a great way to counteract that negativity bias.ANNA: Yes. And incorporating these practices and just keeping an eye towards what's working, what feels good, will help train your brain in a way that's more useful in our current environment. You'll still have the skills of recognizing danger, but will be less likely to label something that's just a bump in the day, or the relationship as something serious that feels very threatening.PAM: That's such a big difference there. Put it in the context, in the context of your whole day, not having this one moment that felt uncomfortable or challenging and having that override or color, the whole rest of your day, discount all the other bits that happened that were connecting, that were fun. They have so much value, too. ANNA: And I think just understanding that our brains tend to do that helps us just put that little check in place. Like, okay, wait a minute. Am I forgetting about all the good things and only focusing, because that's what brains like to do? And so, then we're able to take those additional steps and do those practices.So, here are some questions that you might want to ponder as you explore how these cognitive biases might be playing out in your relationships. So, first, examine your thoughts around quitting, sunk costs, and commitments. Are those thoughts that are serving you? Do you and your partner see them the same way? It could be some really fun discussions to have there.Describe a time when confirmation bias stopped you from seeing someone else's point of view. And this, you may even have to watch for, because it's so natural that we don't even notice, but just start seeing it as you're having conversations. Are we looking for what we want to see?PAM: Yeah. And that's where that open and curious piece comes in. That's just that little reminder, for me anyway, just to not get stuck in there. There's other possibilities.ANNA: Yeah. Love it. Okay. And do the joy writing exercise for your partner and other loved ones.Reflect on how it felt and how it changes your energy when you read it. I cannot tell you just how powerful this has been for so many people that have tried it and just really have enjoyed it.PAM: Yeah, I think that that it really does help just change our energy. Reminding us, oh yeah, these are all true. It's not like we're making up anything or trying to fool ourselves. Literally these are the things that we love about our partner, our children, the fun things that we're doing, the fun pieces of the day.And the one thing I want to mention about these questions is I love that we're going through and asking them now. And I really encourage people to take some time to sit with them, because it really is much more helpful I think to be thinking about these things outside of a particular challenge. But don't wait until all of a sudden y'all are arguing about, oh my gosh, our child wants to quit this activity, to have a conversation about sunk costs. Like you were saying, that could be a very fun conversation.When it's heated about a particular thing that's happening right now that feels urgent and feels like it needs a quick decision, that can be a hard time to have that kind of conversation. But if we can start playing with these ideas and asking ourselves these kinds of questions and playing through them without the pressure or urgency of something happening right in this moment, that can be so very helpful. ANNA: Right, because you're steeping in these new ideas and then they're there for us.When these challenges come up, we can recall back like, hey, I want to put it through this lens. I want to blow back a little bit and look at open and curious and see what else is at play here. I want to know that I have plenty of time. All these things that we're talking about can just be things that you keep in your back pocket as you go through and you'll start seeing how they're just helpful tools that help you navigate these things, so we don't have the spirals or the big blowups about it.So, I hope it's helping. It's been a lot of fun to talk about, anyway. So, thank you so much for listening and we hope to see you next time. Take care.PAM: Yes. Bye, everybody.

Welcome to January 9th, 2023 on the National Day Calendar. Today we celebrate clearing space and reaching great heights.  Anna: Marlo, I know you don't make New Year's resolutions but I have a challenge for you right now, can you see the top of your desk? Marlo: Kind of. Anna: Well, you know I've heard this new thing about feng shui that if you're living in a messy world you're just going to feel more messy. I actually took that to heart and switched things up. John: Okay you're officially a weirdo. Anna: Okay but hear this out; if you look at your quadrants in your house my office is in the wealth corner and it was an absolute mess like a year ago and I'm cleaning that up and things are happening. I'm just saying. Marlo: You have quadrants in your house? Anna: Yeah, Yeah I could come over and read your office, Marlo... John: They don't have Visas though, Marlo. Marlo: That's good to know. Anna: On National Clean Off Your Desk Day find out how much more productive you are with a little less clutter. The first manned balloon flight in America took place on January 9, 1793. Jean Pierre Blanchard, ascended to a height of nearly 6,000 feet in a hydrogen filled balloon and then made a successful landing in New Jersey. Almost 200 years later, another aeronaut made a spectacular, but less famous flight in California. Larry Walters attached 42 weather balloons to an aluminum lawn chair, pumped them full of helium and sailed off into the air. Unfortunately, he had not planned his flight very carefully and soon found himself 16,000 feet above the ground. Walters stayed there for nearly 2 hours before he got cold and descended by popping balloons with a pellet gun. On National Balloon Ascension Day, celebrate by taking a balloon ride but please leave the piloting to the professionals. I'm Anna Devere and I'm Marlo Anderson. Thanks for joining us as we Celebrate Every Day!  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to January 2nd, 2023 on the National Day Calendar. Today we celebrate a feast for everyone and a voyage of the imagination.  Anna: Marlo, I have a bone to pick with you. I'm all geared up to celebrate National Personal Trainer Awareness Day and I see it's also National Cream Puff Day and National Buffet Day. Is that a joke? John, help me out here. John: What do you mean? I'm gonna work out and have a cream puff and a buffet. Anna: Yeah, but you're already in that routine. For those of us that are like picking the day to take a stand, it's horrible. John: You just have to find your balance. Anna: Okay, I guess I can celebrate being aware... Marlo: You need to find a personal trainer that will join you on these things. Anna: Alright, I'm aware that there's a personal trainer out there with my name on it. I'm just gonna start the training part tomorrow.   Jules Verne is famous for books like Twenty Thousand Leagues Under The Sea and Journey to the Center of the Earth. He's also known as the Father of Science Fiction. And his novels weren't only exciting for his time, they also imagined technology that didn't yet exist. Things like helicopters, submarines, space travel, and even videoconferencing! As a rule, science fiction blends technology with imagination, but Verne almost seems like a time traveler with the accuracy of his predictions. They say art imitates life, but in the case of Jules Verne, maybe it's the other way around. On National Science Fiction Day celebrate with your own voyage of the imagination. I'm Anna Devere and I'm Marlo Anderson. Thanks for joining us as we Celebrate Every Day!  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week on the podcast, we're exploring the power of story. Humans are storytellers. We choose the stories we tell about our lives. In every situation, we can come up with a number of ways to tell the story of it, and they're all a version of the truth. But we get to choose which version resonates the most with us, which one feels better to us, and then that informs our actions moving forward. Getting curious about the stories we tell can be an amazing form of self-care!We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.What stories are you holding on to about yourself, your partner, and your family?Where are the stories coming from? From your parents during your childhood? The outside voices of society? Somewhere else?Do you see the story in your self-talk? How else might you tell that story?How does it feel to realize that you get to craft your own stories?TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are very happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.And in today's episode, we are going to talk about stories, both the stories we tell ourselves and the stories we assign to other people, meaning what we think they're thinking. And yes, it can get very messy.Now, this episode is a bit longer than usual, but we think it's worth it. Stories are intricately woven into our relationships with the people that we love, and that's because humans are storytelling animals. It's how we make sense of our world. In the book The Storytelling Animal, How Stories Make Us Human by Jonathan Gottschall, he wrote, "Story is for a human as water is for a fish - all encompassing and not quite palpable." I love that so much, because story truly is everywhere. And the language we choose makes a profound difference, because the stories we tell ourselves become our self-talk. That is why we want to be intentional about the language that we're using.And what's really fascinating is that for pretty much any situation, we can come up with a number of ways to tell the story of it and they can all make sense and all could truthfully tell the story of that situation. And the thing to realize is, we get to choose which one resonates most and feels better to us, which then informs our actions moving forward, which calls back to our conversation in episode seven about how every moment is a choice. Stories and choice are woven together so well, aren't they?ANNA: Oh my gosh. So much. For me, truly understanding the role of story has been so pivotal. That awareness allowed me to step back and observe, so, where's this story coming from? Does it feel real to me and who I am in this moment? Is it serving me? And if I've held onto it for a long time, why? Why have I held onto that story? And who would I be without it? That's one I love to think about. Who would I be? What would it feel like?Because there's an energetic feeling to that. What do I feel without this story that I'm telling about myself or these people in my life? And those questions really can only come about once you take off the veil and realize that everything is a story. Then I get to dive in and have these questions. And through the questioning, I can hone in on what is really working for me.And then I can start to change my story to be more reflective of me as the person I am now, the person I want to be moving forward. And I could see the role of story more clearly and use it as a tool instead of being held hostage by it, which is kind of how it felt before.And for me, like you said, language is such a big piece of that. I try to be so intentional about my language that I use, whether I'm defining some kind of big event or a very simple task in front of me, because in that language is choice. I'm developing the story that informs my day and tells others who I am. And so, that piece is so critical to me, just seeing it for what it is. And then, how do I want to create my narrative? What language do I want to use to describe it? I like thinking about it. PAM: Yeah. And once you see the scope of it, it's incredible, because it's not only the stories that we're telling ourselves, but it's understanding that the stories we're telling others about ourselves and about our lives is the picture that they're going to draw from. That's where they're going to meet us.So, first, let's look at our self-talk, at our inner voice. Sometimes we don't think we have control over our self-talk. It just appears in our head, the words over and over and over when we're spiraling over something, right? But we truly can change that over time as we make intentional changes to the language that we use and the stories we tell ourselves.It is worth taking the time to listen to our self-talk a bit more objectively, to just ask ourselves, is this a helpful story for me?ANNA: Right, because we have the self-talk, and we don't think we can change it. I think that's something I believed when I was younger. It's hard to change or we're given this story that it's hard, but I think we may assign it more importance than perhaps serves us. So, I love the idea of really diving into that, because self-talk is just an aspect of our story. It's no different. It's no more powerful. And it's not this boogeyman that it's kind of made out to be.And sometimes our self-talk is the stories that have been handed to us, perhaps by our parents or past relationships. And what's so important there is to realize that the stories they told, even if the story is about us, is their story. It's not ours and we don't have to take it in and own it. It's about them, where they were at the time, the stories that perhaps they were handed.And so, that's the thing, right? We can just keep continuing to hand down these same stories or we can take control of our own narrative. We can look at who we really are and what's actually in front of us, and then write a story that lifts us up, because that helps us be the person that we want to be and it will inform our next steps in a given situation. And I think that's what's so important about it. That's how insidious stories are. When we carry these stories from someone else, they change our energy and then they inform our next steps, and it keeps us on this same narrow path.But at any moment, we can take back the reins. We can examine the stories that we're clinging to and we can make choices because yes, Pam, it's always about choices with me. We're going to keep bringing that up.PAM: Yes. Definitely. I love the point about realizing that the stories other people are telling about us, especially the stories we grew up with, are just somebody else's perspective. It's their story. So, maybe we've absorbed the story that we're too sensitive, or we're scared to try new things, or we're very shy. That isn't our story. It's their story about us. And we get to choose our own story.Speaking of, it's also helpful to realize that goes both ways. So, for example, take a moment to consider the stories we're telling our partner about our day. Maybe we're more likely to take it as an opportunity to vent. "I am so tired," or, "So many things went wrong today." Is that what I want to convey? What will their view of my day look like from my story? Maybe that I'm so tired because I was busy having fun playing with the kids, or deep in the flow of working on a favorite project or knocking a bunch of those tasks off my to-do list.Maybe more things unusual went wrong today precisely because I was working a to-do list that was filled with those iffy jobs, and I got them done in the end. But how will they see my day through my venting words? Probably not as the ultimately satisfying day that I saw. So, understanding that the stories I tell, big and small, live on in the world reminds me to be more intentional. Now that doesn't mean not venting, but maybe prefacing it with a quick qualifier. Like, "My day was great. I just want to vent about a couple of things."It means considering who I'm speaking with and choosing my language to better convey the meaning of my story. Is what I'm saying true? Is it how I want to be seen by others? What do I need or want from the conversation? Because stories are the lifeblood of communication.ANNA: Yes. And I think it's interesting, too, thinking about that. What do I want to get from this story? Because if we do come at our partner with all the things that have happened in the day and then they come back trying to solve things and really we're like, "Wait a minute, it's just a story we're telling about how we had these tough things," you know? So, keep all that in mind. It's the lifeblood of communication. I don't think that's an overstatement. I think that's really so true.And so, keeping in mind that others will see our story through their lens, what they know, and that's okay. Understanding that helps us put their comments or reactions into perspective as well. Back to everyone is different. We see and experience the world differently.PAM: Yes. And that is absolutely a wonderful thing. We have control over our stories and what pieces we choose to share and how we choose to share. Understanding that other people come to conversations with their lens, too, so, not expecting them to fully understand what it looks like through our eyes and not even expecting them to even be curious to understand. We can't control where they are on their journey.Now, I also want to talk about the stories that we assign to other people, because so often we tend to assume the worst story. For myself and many others that I've spoken with, when we're feeling disconnected from someone or they react negatively to something we've said or done, the story we immediately tell ourselves is that we did something wrong, but often that really isn't true.It's so helpful to remember that, when we're thinking about what someone else is thinking, that is a story that we're making up. No matter how well we know them, we still don't know for sure. So don't assume that the first story that we jump to is the same story that they see. ANNA: Yes. So often, we find ourselves putting words into people's heads, and we will actually play out the scenarios till the end without the other person involved at all. "They're upset with me. I did something wrong. They don't like what I'm doing," whatever the words were saying. Even, "They're trying to hurt me. Their actions are intentional towards me." So often, we get that very wrong. We really don't know what's happening in another person's head.I have a friend that will honestly just create entire movies and the challenge with that is, it doesn't leave room for anything else. Once you've created a story for someone, you start acting from that place with that energy. So, if you've ever had one of those dreams where it's so real, your partner has done something terrible and really upset you, and you wake up and you're still super mad and they're going like, "What is happening? I just woke up. I don't know what you're talking about!"But it's the same when we create a story. We can buy into that energy and bring that energy to the person and they have no idea where it's coming from. But instead, if we can first assume positive intent, second, we can ask questions and leave space and remain open, then the person's free to share what they're actually feeling. And so often, it does not come close to the stories that we're making up.So, I have a friend and a while back, she shared a story and she didn't share it as a story. She shared it as a fact. She said that her husband didn't find her attractive. And she said, "He actively avoids even touching me when we walk each other past each other in the hall." And I was like, "Oh, wow. Have you talked to him about that?" And she was like, "Well, no." And then when she did, she found the complete opposite was true. He was trying to be respectful of her space. So, he felt by moving aside in the hall, he was showing respect for her space and honoring her.And so, then they had this conversation around what would feel good to each other and how they want to move forward. And it's very different now. But she had been telling that story for years and he had no idea. That's just how insidious these stories are. And I think it's just really worth examining the stories that we put on others, even when we feel it's justified, even if we think we know them so well, even if we've held onto these stories for years. Conversations are so important. Being open and curious. Leave space for people to tell us who they are. Pre-writing a detailed story does not.You can feel that closed energy when you come in with this pre-populated story and it's so disconnecting. Even some light inquiry can shed light on what's really going on and give space for each person to share their perspective. And then we can understand where the communication broke down in the first place and why maybe we're seeing it differently, but that won't happen if we stay in our head creating stories. That will only happen with that choice of connection and that choice to have some conversations.PAM: Yeah, sometimes I can get stuck in a really negative story about someone else, and I just don't feel confident enough to ask about it yet or bring it up. But when that happens, I found it helpful to just remind myself that it's a story and then start to play with that. How else might this story go? What about this? Does that fit? Maybe this? So, once I think of a few other things, even if they seem outlandish to me right now, I realize that there isn't just one possible story. It wasn't just the one thing that I was clinging to and being upset about. That lightens things up for me.And usually, when I'm feeling lighter, now I can get curious. Which one is it? I want to know now. And then usually I can get to the space, the energy, where it doesn't feel so heavy and I can actually bring up the conversation with them. I can actually go, "Hey, what about this? What did that feel like to you?"On the flip side, moving through that process over and over helped me realize that I really don't know what's going on in another person's life that has led them to make whatever choice it is that they made. That's their story, their truth. That's been a very helpful discovery on my journey around stories, just that realization that these are stories. My story, their story, it's their truth in the moment. And that is just enough. I can be curious then. It reminds me that there are multiple ways that things can go.ANNA: Right. And there are just always more layers, I think, to peel back on our stories, which kind of leads nicely to this last bit we wanted to talk about. We get to choose the stories we tell. And we touched on this back a bit back in the choices episode, but I want to bring it up again. We choose the stories we tell about the big things like our childhood and the little things like the grocery store. And in every situation, there are things that are easier and harder, that work or don't work. But we can choose to focus on those aspects that make sense and feel better to us.For any situation, we can come up with a number of ways to tell the story of it, and they all make sense in the context of the activity, the situation, the people involved, and they can all truthfully tell the story. But now, we get to choose which one resonates the most with us, which one feels better to us, which then informs our actions moving forward. That's the power of story. PAM: Right. Especially in more challenging situations, it's so valuable to take a moment to not just jump in with the first story that comes to mind, which is usually fear-based. And it's usually the worst one, the worst interpretation of things. And if we just stick with that one, we can get tunnel vision and start spiraling downward in our fears. We can get really stuck there if we only see this one worst interpretation of the situation in front.So, instead, take that moment to come up with a few more stories that align with the situation. If we don't take the time to consider other stories, we're not really making a meaningful choice moving forward, are we? You can't choose between one thing. And choosing more positive stories, ones that feel better to us, isn't about avoiding the truth, because the different stories all incorporate the facts. But for me, choosing the more positive story is really a form of self-care.Instead of telling myself over and over the versions that make me feel bad, that weigh me down, that pull me into that tunnel vision, I can tell myself the versions of the story that both make sense and feel better. Because from there, I'm in a more open and curious and receptive mindset, a place where I can now see more opportunities. I can be more creative in choosing my next step and my next moment is truly better. And I find myself then starting to spiral upwards, moving through it, rather than spiraling down and crashing and just feeling crushed.ANNA: And getting stuck! So, my oldest daughter and I talked about this so many times over the years, because she is a master storyteller. And, I mean, it's a gift. It is a gift that she has and it is amazing. But sometimes, it gets the better of her, because sometimes she can spin this really intricate story about someone else or about a situation, and it ends up making her feel terrible. But in the end, it's just a story. We're making it up in our heads.And I think once I realized that, I decided, if I'm going to make up a story, I'm going to make up a story that feels good, one that helps me feel connected, that helps me move forward as the person I want to be, which is exactly what you're talking about.So, I want to examine if my story spirals me into a place of being stuck, or if my story is lifting me. I may not understand all the pieces, but I can feel okay about the situation if I look at it this way, and that helps me move forward as the person I want to be. And like we've talked about before, there are situations sometimes where I can get some clarifying information so that I can get a more accurate picture, because maybe there's someone else involved and I can stop putting words in their mouth and actually figure it out.But other times, like you said, it really isn't even possible. When it's not possible, I just always want to choose the story that feels better, because it's just as likely to be true as the one that doesn't. And so, I'm just wasting the time in this moment feeling bad about something when I really don't even know the full story. And so, that's why I love that you tied it into self-care, because that's exactly what it is. It really is just this intentional choice to look at what's in front of me and find a story that feels good.And again, it's not about pushing the other things aside. It's not about pretending that things didn't happen or changing the story. It's just intentionally using language that makes me feel good about what's happening around me. So, for me, if it's a particularly challenging or difficult situation, it's not about pretending that the difficult situation didn't happen, but I look for, how have I moved through it? Look at the amazing support I've received from the people around me. Look at how loved I am because they've helped me through this situation. Look at what I've learned about myself from it.Whatever the situation, I can always find a way to frame it to use what can be a challenging situation to make myself feel better and to move forward from there. And so, that's also an empowerment piece, knowing that I can turn these situations that can completely derail me into situations that just boost me forward and allow me to be around the people that I love and to connect with the people that lift me up.PAM: Yes. And another layer that I think would be helpful for people to peel back, and I am still peeling this layer back, but, why is our tendency to take on that weight? Why does it feel like the more positive spin or the silver lining is it cheat? It really is not. And we can do that work to peel back those layers and to realize that these are all stories, they are all versions of the truth. They could absolutely all be true.ANNA: And I think this part is related to the stories handed to us by society. Things like, life is suffering. Only hard work pays off. Relationships are hard. And so, when you find this cheat, you're like, "Wait a minute. Maybe it doesn't have to be this hard. Maybe I can be enjoying it," but then you might try to stop yourself. Like, "What? But we've been told that forever!"But no, set that aside, because we don't have to make situations more difficult. There's going to be plenty of things in life to work through, but when you can find joy, when you can switch that focus, see the light, find the gifts in the situation, life is just so much more enjoyable. But we do have to shed some of those stories from society, some of those stories from even other people in our lives, in order to create what feels good for us.PAM: Yeah, I love that. I mean, "Life is hard." Don't we hear that all the time? But then, if we tell a different story, the reaction can often be like, "Well, you're a Pollyanna. You're not seeing the truth." Another story. Right? It is just so useful to work through all of that.Now, you and I have both heard, "You guys are always so positive," and people think it's weird at first, which is okay, because it's part of the process of peeling back those layers and understanding that our stories are ours to tell and there's more than one way to tell the story. We don't always have to take the negative, life-is-hard bent on it. ANNA: Right. And the reason I'm telling the story is for me. It's not to put on a show or make anything look different for somebody else from the outside. It's because it helps me be the person I want to be.It helps me in my relationships. I remember one time somebody said to me, "I get it now. I get that you're not just a Pollyanna about life. It's that it helps you have these relationships. It helps you move through these situations." And I'm like, "Yes, that's absolutely it." I'm not thinking about anybody else's reaction to me choosing joy or finding light in a moment, because that's my internal work.Now, I'm understanding that it can come across that way as people are listening to it, but I'm like, "Oh, no, no, no. This is just a tool." It's a tool that helps me connect with people. It helps me move through my days in a way that feels better to me. And it's just a choice. And I think if somebody wants to play around with it, they can see how it feels for them, too.PAM: Exactly. Exactly. And I find it helps me be more creative. It helps me come up with more possibilities. And that's the thing. You can try it out for a while and you see how it goes. And I do suspect you'll start to see things that wouldn't have happened in the other mindset.ANNA: Yeah, it's really true. And I do think it's so interesting and we definitely get feedback about that.I mean, I definitely get that. "You're always looking on the bright side!" And I'm like, I feel all the things, but it's just, again, those stories we create, it impacts how we move forward. It impacts how we see all the things around us.So, let's talk about some questions you might want to ponder for this week as you explore the idea of stories. First, what story are you holding onto about yourself, your partner, and your family? And that's a lot. So, that one may take a few minutes, because we have stories that have been handed us from childhood and on. So, there's a lot of stories there.Where are the stories coming from, from your parents during childhood, from outside voices of society, somewhere else? Identifying where, I think, is so key to realizing and taking your power back there, to realize, I don't need to own their story. That story's not about me at all.And so, do you see the story in your self-talk and how else might you tell that story? Self-talk again, it's kind of this bugaboo that we're unsure about. How do we change it? But I think the first step, don't you think, is just identifying it, just recognizing it as a story.PAM: Yes. Recognizing it as a story and, like in the previous question, where did that story come from? Is it really my story or is it something that I've absorbed over the years? It's someone else's view that I've adopted because they can really feel like that's our story, That's our self-talk, because we should be more productive, we should be efficient. "I should be able to do this quickly," or, "I shouldn't be so sensitive." There are just so many stories that we've absorbed over time that are really somebody else's view. And to check in and start asking ourselves and see, well, does that make sense to me? Do I feel sensitive all the time? What's wrong with being sensitive? There are just so many questions and layers do with that.ANNA: And you know I love, who would I be without that story? So, feel that. Who would I be without telling that story about I'm so sensitive or I can't get anything done whatever the thing is that people have handed to us. So, yeah, so interesting.And finally, how does it feel to realize that you get to craft your own story? And so, I think it, I think that may take a minute, because it's just realizing, Okay, do I get to write it? Because I think, again, some people think it's a cheat. But it's like, no, you really do. You really get to pick the things that you like and craft that as your own personal story, even when there's tragedy, even when there are bad things that have happened. There are things to look at that we can just say, yeah, but this is who I want to be and this is how I went through those tough times, and this is what was surrounding me during that. And so, that we can hold onto that part of the story as well.PAM: Yeah, and I think that's one of the big things that I want to share with people is that these are true moments. This isn't stuff that we're making up. We're not saying, ignore all this hard stuff that's going on around you.It's, as you said, a tool that can be helpful in moving through those seasons, moving through those emergency moments, all those pieces. For me, it is so incredibly helpful for me to move out of that fight or flight tunnel, which can be super helpful in the moment. But we get stuck there so easily. This is a tool that really helps me move through that. I just find it's become such a useful tool, because I know I'm more creative on the other side. I move through things with more grace and just more compassion and kindness for other people that are involved when I can help myself with this tool move beyond that tunnel vision and the that whole fight flight emergency response when things go wrong. That's helped me.ANNA: It will be fun to see what people bring up about stories. So, thank you so much for listening and we hope to see you next time. So, take care. Bye-bye.PAM: Bye, everyone.

This week, we're focusing on one of Anna's favorite mantras, "There's plenty of time." It's so common in our culture to live our lives with a sense of urgency, always feeling like we're in a rush—it's almost a badge of honor. Yet that energy can so often damage our relationships as we put pressure on each other to move quickly and follow a certain agenda.When we realize that we actually do have the time to consider our options, to communicate about everyone's needs, and to take the bigger picture context into account, we can give more space to both ourselves and our loved ones to figure out solutions that feel good to everyone.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.When you imagine the idea that there's plenty of time in the context of a disagreement with a friend, partner, or child, how does it feel? Expansive? Overwhelming? Just plain wrong? Why?Do you recall a time when an issue bubbled up again and again because you didn't take the time up front to more fully understand it? Where in your life do you feel time pressure? What if you could release that? How would that feel?Can you think of a time when feeling time pressure interfered with coming up with a creative solution to a challenge?TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are thrilled you're here and interested in exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.And in today's episode, we are going to talk about the idea that there is plenty of time. Now, it has been such a helpful tool for me over the years when navigating challenges with the people I love, and I believe I first heard about it from you, Anna!It's amazing how so many things that come up in our days can feel like emergencies, like they need to be solved as soon as possible. I think taking a moment to consider whether the situation at hand is a true emergency can help us release so much of the time pressure that we're feeling. Reminding ourselves that we have plenty of time gives us more space to explore the root of the issue, rather than throwing Band-aid after Band-aid at it just to quickly solve it. "I gotta get this, I gotta move through it." It's so fascinating just to consider having plenty of time.ANNA: Yes. Oh my goodness. So, it has been one of my main mantras for a very long time. Our society likes to operate with this extreme sense of urgency about everything and I get caught up in that really easily. I feel like time pressure is just a huge trigger for me that kind of sets me on this path of not thinking and just being really stressed out.And the thing is, I like to get things done. I like to check boxes. I like moving on to the next thing, and that can have its place. I can be super productive. But what I found was that carrying that sense of urgency around all the time did not help with my relationships at all. It takes time to navigate things in a relationship, and if you stop and take a breath, you can ask, is this really urgent? Is it an emergency? Does this need to be solved right this second? And often, you'll find the answer is, no. It does not need to be solved right this second. I can calm down.PAM: Right? And I find that even when we recognize that it's not an emergency, I feel that time pressure can trigger our need to perform, if that makes sense. As I was thinking, it's like, okay, yes, this is not emergency, but then boom, I still want to perform well. I want to solve it quickly and efficiently. I want to get an "A" in problem-solving, to be productive, because those are strong cultural messages we hear so often. But are they actually helpful goals in and of themselves, particularly when other people are involved?Another question that I found very useful to ask myself is, are we looking for future approval or validation about how we handle the situation? That's that performance piece, maybe from a person that we anticipate telling about the situation in the future. Are we looking at that more than we're looking with care and compassion to the other person in front of us who's involved?And yes, being someone who jumped straight to problem solving for many years and still works on it, another consequence I found was that solving a problem quickly was often shorthand for implementing my solution, which relationship-wise, often meant pushing through the other person's consent. And maybe not even obviously pushing through it, but more so by not even slowing down to ask them for their thoughts and ideas. Instead, just presenting my solution with an energy of, "Of course this makes sense and you'll agree. Let's do it."But I came to see that that approach definitely took a toll on my relationships, on my connections with the people in my life. Their trust in me dwindled because they felt less seen and heard by me over time, because I wasn't asking them what they thought. I wasn't asking them for their ideas. I was just saying, "Oh yeah, look, this happened. We can do this instead. Let's go." Just pulling them along with my energy.ANNA: Exactly. And as you'll hear us say so many times, everyone wants to feel seen and heard. So, anything that's short circuiting that is going to be an issue. And that's the thing. When we are holding speed and efficiency and production ahead of people and connection, it's going to take a toll. Period. And again, I like to be efficient and get things done. So, this isn't about just stopping all the things, but for me, it's about being aware of the energy I'm bringing into a situation.And if another person is involved, am I taking the time to really hear them and understand them, especially if we're talking about our most important relationships? It's key to avoiding conflicts and misunderstandings to give ourselves time to really hear one another. And I'm one who likes to fix and solve and to be fair, I have some very good ideas, Pam.PAM: You do. You do. ANNA: But no one wants to be dragged along, even for my really good idea. And so, remembering what we've talked about in the past on the podcast, how different everyone is. We see and process the world differently. So, my really good idea might be a really good idea for me and not for the person I'm in relationship with. But if I push through their consent with this intense sense of urgency, it ends up just leaving us feeling so disconnected.PAM: Yes. And when I'm feeling time pressure, particularly self-imposed time pressure, I've found that I am much more apt to take that conventional straight-line path from A to B to solve the problem, because it feels like a race against the clock to me. But when I can realize that that's happening and remind myself that there's plenty of time, I feel more expansive and free to be curious. I feel I have the space to more creatively navigate a challenge, because you know what? And that's fine, too. If it was just me, I could take my straight-line, A to B and do it and move on, but as I chat with the other person or the people that are involved, I can give them that space and just slowly map out what's going on. There are signposts of everyone's needs.Maybe there's lines of trees representing the constraints that we're discovering. Maybe environmental constraints, maybe time constraints, maybe capacity constraints. Maybe there's hills for aspects that feel a little bit harder. And flower gardens or some beautiful art in spots that we'd like to pass by if it works. And from there, once we kind of start to fill in that map, we can more fruitfully begin exploring paths through the space of the challenge that hit most of the need sign posts, navigate around many of the hills, and maybe even take some time to stop and soak in the view of a sunflower field in bloom.I know, maybe that sounds a bit sappy. But in my experience, our lives are so much richer when we give ourselves the time and space to be open and curious about the situation, to chat and ponder a bit more to get creative.ANNA: Yes. I love that image. Honestly, I can feel my body slowing down just thinking about it. And so, I think finding what helps you stay present in the moment and slow yourself down. Even to notice the sense of urgency and slow it down. So, what kind of imagery, what kind of breathing, what kind of things in the moment help bring you down? And again, that mantra of, "There's plenty of time," this vision of a map of all the possibilities we have, like whatever that is.And I think another aspect of peeling back the layers related to this is to look at where is the sense of urgency coming from? What is its purpose? Who is it serving? And asking those questions really helped me kind of deconstruct this a little bit, because the truth of it is, when we're rushing from task to task, there's very little time to question anything.And I think sometimes we think that sense of urgency is coming from within us, but I don't think it is. I think we've been trained to rush, to value efficiency and productivity above all else. And I think humans naturally want to connect, and the two just don't really work well together.So, the question for me becomes, do I want to sacrifice or harm my relationships so that I can be a better producer for society? And I would argue that people in strong connected relationships actually bring more to the world and end up producing the most amazing things. And so, how this looks in practice for me is, when I find myself feeling frustrated or trying to rush someone along to my chosen outcomes, I just stop and I take that breath and I say, "There's plenty of time." And I feel it. The energy instantly changes.And if I'm still struggling, I will ask myself, "Where is the sense of urgency coming from? Is it even real? And is it helping? Because even if we feel there is some real time constraint, there is some real thing that's driving it, is it helping me make the choices in the moment? Is it helping the two of us get through this situation? Because if it's not, we still need to set it aside, even if it's a real thing, because we're not getting anywhere.And, as I mentioned, so often this applies to our relationships with both kids and adults. Rushing a child out the door frustrated or pushing a partner to get something done on a timeline without regard to their experience of it, it just doesn't feel good to anyone. So, reminding myself there's plenty of time just grounds me back in that moment.Because the truth of it is, if we're five minutes late, if we miss the thing altogether, if the project doesn't get done, the world does not end. Most likely, a year later, it'll be hard to even remember what the issues were. But if we continually push past the people in our life, if we push them along this arbitrary timeline, it will absolutely impact the relationship, and that's something I want to avoid.Again, back to priorities from episode one, I want to keep my relationships as the priority. And if what's being handed to me by society is in conflict with that, then I want to question it and ultimately set it aside.PAM: Yes, exactly. With relationships as my priority, I want to use that lens as I navigate my days. And it's fascinating to discover how often cultivating connected relationships is at odds with the societal messages that we hear or even just infer from how people are moving through and navigating their days all around us.ANNA: So true!PAM: The immense value given to having power and influence over others, the call to create strong boundaries to protect ourselves from others, the importance of being productive members of society at the expense of others, it is just so interesting to think about how relationships, while talked about so often as being an important part of our lives, in reality, are often expected to take a backseat.So, with that, here are some questions you might want to ponder as you explore the idea that there's plenty of time.Our first one is, when you imagine the idea that there's plenty of time in the context of a disagreement with a friend, partner, or child, how does it feel? Just bring that idea, that lens of plenty of time in. Does it feel expansive? Does it feel overwhelming? Does it feel just plain wrong? "No, I don't have time." "Why?" is a great question to ask yourself at that point. What is it that's making me feel like I don't have time in this situation?The next question is, do you recall a time when an issue bubbled up again and again because you didn't take the time up front to more fully understand it? I find things can bubble up and we can solve them. We can put that Band-aid on them. But if we don't take the time to get to the root of things and really find out what the underlying need is, or play around with the process through which we move through things that come up regularly in our lives, we can just see it happening again and again.ANNA: I think that one can help people that have the efficiency piece, because really it is more efficient to take the time and deal with it and to actually figure out how we want to move through it, versus the plugging the holes or the Band-aids that we end up having to revisit and revisit and revisit the same challenges.PAM: Exactly. Exactly. It is so interesting to think about that, that we think we're being efficient, we think we're being productive, but so often, maybe it bubbles up over and over, but maybe it has relationship implications that I have to spend time with later. So, you can start to discover that it's really a choice of, where do I want to put my energy in the process? In the space up front or into the, going through it again and again.Okay. Okay. Question three. Where in your life do you feel time pressure? What if you could release that, how would that feel? I think that could be a big one, too. And if you release that, how would that feel? And where is it coming from? Is it something that I am putting on myself? Because so often, it's something that we're doing.ANNA: So often, it's something we're putting on ourselves that again, we kind of think is coming from somewhere else, maybe our job, or maybe school, or maybe something else.But really when we look at it, it's our interpretation of that that's putting this super intense sense of urgency and time pressure on it.PAM: Yes, yes. And sometimes we're just feeling that we have to bring somebody else's framework or approach and be the voice of them, whether that be society or a boss or a teacher, and that I have to be them now, because they're not here to say it, but is that how I really feel?All good stuff. Okay. Our last question. Can you think of a time when feeling time pressure interfered with coming up with a creative solution to a challenge? And this is one I just would love people to think about, because what I discovered over time is that even when it is just me, it can be so useful to take the space not to just go with A to B, the first thing that comes to mind.I have found there are so often more creative ways that that feel even better, that may be even more fun. There are so many possibilities. So, when I just let myself play with these things, take that time pressure off myself of something that I need to do, like the bathroom thing. It's like, just do the damn bathrooms and get it done. I can tell myself that story, but it's so much easier or so much more fun when I can just give myself some space to play with it.ANNA: Yeah. And I think the time allows us to bring in the context that we talk about so much, because if we're just going point A to point B, we're really missing a lot of context around us. And then that can inform us, because again, maybe it helps us make a decision that saves us some work down the road or that keeps a relationship intact that we might be running over. And so, taking that time for ourselves to take in that context, to me, just makes it easier, more fun, and a lot of times, even more efficient.PAM: Exactly. Exactly. Okay. Thanks so much for listening, everyone, and we will see you next time. Bye!

This week, we're diving into consent and living consensually with the people in our lives. Consent is really the backbone of everything we talk about. Everyone, regardless of age, wants agency. When we can shift away from control, because we truly can't control other people, we move from a power-over dynamic to a collaboration paradigm, leading to more connected relationships.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.What does consent mean to you? How do you see it weaving together with agency?Think about a recent argument you had and how you expressed yourself. Could you reframe/reword some of what you said as an “I” message? That can be both less confrontational and more accurate. For example, instead of, “You're not listening to me!” maybe try, “I don't feel heard.” Rather than getting stuck in an endless round of “Yes, I am”/”No, you're not”, it encourages the conversation to go deeper.What barriers do you see to living consensually? How would it feel to just set them aside? This week, practice contemplating the underlying need that your friend or partner is trying to meet through their actions.TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hello again and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We're excited you're interested in exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.So, in today's episode, we're talking about consent and living consensually, and I have to say, this is one of my very favorite topics. It is really the backbone of everything that we talk about. When we understand that everyone, no matter their age, wants agency, and that we truly have no control over another, we move from a power-over dynamic to a collaboration paradigm.And it's interesting, because I think intellectually most of us would agree that consent is important, that we should never push past another person's consent. And yet, in our desire to control outcomes, we often do, and this is especially true for children. And yet, how can we expect children to honor consent as adults if they have never experienced what it means to work together to find solutions to that feel good to both parties?And it comes into play in adult relationships as well, in subtle and sometimes not so subtle ways. We look to change people. We have expectations and agendas that we push without regard for who that person is and what they want and what they value.PAM: Yeah, exactly. And for me, consent and by extension, living consensually, was one of those ideas that once I saw it, I couldn't unsee it. I soon recognized how often I was trying to very subtly wield control to move through situations in ways that made sense to me, especially interactions with my partner and my kids. And looking through this new lens, I notice now how disconnecting those control tactics were for my relationships. Basically, someone was almost always disappointed or disgruntled in a family of five.But I also observed that many of our interactions were steeped in power. And at their root, they were about me, often very politely, but I was convincing, coercing, or guilting the other person into doing what I wanted them to do. Gee, that calls back to our last episode as well, doesn't it?ANNA: Yeah. It does!PAM: And I realized how draining that was. My understanding of consent grew exponentially once I realized it wasn't about me convincing someone to agree to do the things my way. That's consent, right? Instead, it was so much more about seeing through their eyes and recognizing that there are many valid paths forward, not just mine. Consent meant working together collaboratively to figure out an often new path forward that made sense still and felt good to everyone involved.ANNA: Yeah, right. It definitely hearkens back to that episode and also to when we talked about how different people can be, because when we push our agenda without consideration of how the other person feels or moves through the world, when we have ultimatums or even just expectations that are kindly and politely put out there, we're taking away that other person's agency, and that is just not a solid place from which to build a strong relationship.Humans want autonomy. They want to have agency over their lives. So instead, we can learn about one another. We can commit to deeply understanding what makes each of us tick. We can set up an environment where we find solutions to problems together, trusting that we'll keep at it until both parties feel good about the plan.And that's really the core of choosing to live consensually. The process involves listening and validating, being able to clearly articulate our own needs, but in "I" messages, not demands. After everyone feels heard and seen, that's where we can cultivate this open curious mindset, this brainstorming-type idea about how to solve the situation at hand. At that point, we're all on the same team. We're working together to solve for all the needs, instead of standing on opposite sides, defending and advocating only for our own needs.And a big part of this is understanding that there are almost always underlying needs at play. So, very often, a conflict is sitting at one level that can feel impossible to solve. One person wants to go out, the other wants to stay home. Where do we go with that? But if we peel back a layer to see the underlying needs, then we have more to work with. We have more options to consider. But we can't get there if we're stuck in that place of thinking their actions are about us, if we think our partner is just being difficult, if we're taking it personally. There are needs on both sides of that argument and understanding those opens up the options.So, maybe one wants to just really see their friends. So, could the friends come over instead? The other had a long day and just needs some downtime. Is allowing a bit more time before going out the fix? Solutions are everywhere when we assume positive intent on all sides and start working together to understand each other and the situation more.That quick reminder that they're just humans trying to meet a need helps us remain connected and curious. And now we have a puzzle to solve together, instead of two or more people digging in their heels on opposite sides of this surface-level disagreement.PAM: Yes, yes, yes. And, for me, it made all the difference in the world when I felt we were truly all on the same team, trying to figure out a way to move forward that met each of our needs. It was such a big energetic, feeling difference. So, we can just take a moment to envision what that might feel like. So, when each person feels seen and heard and trust that their needs will ultimately be met, it is so energizing. It opens up so many creative possibilities, rather than locking two people, as you said, into that battle until one comes out the winner. There's a winner and loser in that situation. Who has the power? Who can convince the other one to do it their way?It definitely takes time and patience and practice to bring consent into our everyday relationships, but it really is life-changing. I do want to acknowledge the time that these conversations can take as you work together to figure out those underlying needs, to figure out a path forward that works for everyone. But the other path, which is the argument, the power struggles, and then the aftermath of needing to repair the relationship, that takes up time, too. So, which process feels better to experience with those you love, trust and collaboration or judgment and power struggles?ANNA: Oh my gosh, yes. So, that right there was really a big part of me wanting to move in this direction. It takes time and energy to argue one's position and to try to win everything, energy that I found draining and disconnecting. And I knew I didn't want to live in that energy every day. It felt very assaulting to me.What I found was how rewarding and connecting it was to live in a house with no top-down agendas, no punishment or control, just connection and collaboration, whether it was with David or if it involved our kids. We were all invested in helping each other meet our needs and do the things that we wanted to do. That deep level of trust that you will be supported and unconditionally loved is the energy I want to cultivate and bask in every day.And so, somewhat related, over the years, David has had a lot of hobbies that people would consider dangerous. They're a part of who he is, and I've always wanted to support him in those pursuits, even when I didn't understand it. And by putting that out there, what I found in return is someone who supports all my wild hair ideas and whom I trust will always be there for me.That is worth so much more than me trying to control who he is and shape him into someone who may feel safer and easier for me. That's my work to do and, for me, it was rooted in gratitude for the time we have together and letting go of fear. Because fear is so often the root of control and letting that go allows us to find gratitude and connection to truly love those around us for who they are and how they move through the world. And that unconditional acceptance was what we both wanted to continue when we had children.And honestly, raising children in a consensual environment where we were all trusted and supported, where we learned to understand and express our needs and knew we would be heard and that solutions would be found, has been one of the greatest experiences of my life.PAM: It's been a life-changing and amazing experience, and I wanted to take a moment to talk a bit more about unconditional love and acceptance. I love that phrase. And, for me, it doesn't feel like throwing my hands up in the air and thinking, whatever! Whatever they want to do!I think when we hear unconditional at first, that can be what we think. Okay. No conditions. I have no input. Whatever they want to do, just off they go.For me, unconditional means without expectations, so without conditions, not withholding our love and affection if the person makes a choice that we don't agree with, even more so not using judgment and shame as tools to try to get them to change their mind.But not having conditions doesn't mean not trying to understand them as a person, like we have been talking about. If they make a choice that doesn't make sense to us, unconditional love doesn't mean we think, "Whatever. I still love you. Off you go," and then burying our feelings of concern.So, instead we can be more open and curious. We can learn more. Maybe it's in direct conversation with them or by paying extra attention to how the choice unfolds for them. How are they navigating it? What are they enjoying about it? I am so curious. What the heck do you enjoy? But either way, we learn more about them. We have a better understanding of who they are as a person.Because even if we often say, "I love you!" it is hard for someone to feel loved for who they are if they don't feel seen and heard. They think, "Sure, they said they love me, but they don't really understand who I am."Being in relationship with a person means understanding who they are, which also isn't a one and done thing. We all grow and change over time. To embrace consent and consensual living in our relationships with the people we love is to choose to be curious about who they are as a person, because that is a great place to start just right there. Like, who is this person?ANNA: Right. And like you said, when we say, whatever, I love you, whatever, do whatever. That doesn't feel good. So, even if I don't understand something, I can ask questions and just like we've been talking about over these last few weeks, learn more about them. And then as we leave ourselves open to that, we're seeing through their eyes. We're starting to see like, okay, it does make sense that they love this. I see how that's feeding them. I see what they love about it.And so, that moves us from this place of, okay, I'm not going to stop them, to, I'm celebrating who they are. And that switch is so big, moving to celebrating. Even when it's something we may not participate in ourselves or fully understand, we do understand through their eyes what they're getting from.PAM: Yes. And we can connect. So, maybe it's a thing that, "Yeah, I don't want to join you in your thing. I'm glad that you love it." But where we can also really deeply connect with them is thinking about something that we love that much. So, when we know that, it's like how much I love this thing, then I can get a real feel and sense for how much they're enjoying the thing we're doing, and less about having conversations later about the facts of what happened.It can be, "I bet you had so much fun." You can talk about the energy, you can talk about the experience. That's where you can connect with them and share and celebrate them. I love that point that you shared about getting to the place where you can celebrate their love of the thing. You can celebrate their choices without having to make the same choice, without having to join them, but we can celebrate that energy and knowing how it feels for ourselves, too.ANNA: Yes. I just love how you're saying that, because that's the piece. We can celebrate how much joy it brings to them. We can celebrate their excitement about something, even if we can't celebrate the individual piece of it, because we maybe don't understand it or it doesn't appeal to us. But that's irrelevant. When someone you love lights up about something, be it a child or your partner or your friend, that's energy we can get on board with. And celebrating someone for something like that, it builds this deep trust and bond, that I'm seen by this person that they really see me and it's just really beautiful. So, I love that.So, let's give a few questions to ponder as we're thinking about consent and living consensually with your loved ones for this week. What does consent mean to you? How do you see it weaving together with agency? I think this is going to be good.PAM: Yeah. That is so interesting, that connection between those two things. And just thinking about agency, is that something I want to step on? How does it feel to have agency? To have choice? How does consent weave in with that. I think that'll be really fun to play with.ANNA: Yeah, to peel a little of that back. Okay. So, think about a recent argument you had and how you expressed yourself. Could you reframe or reword some of what you said as an "I" message? That can be both less confrontational and more accurate. So, for example, instead of saying, "You're not listening to me," maybe try, "I don't feel heard." Rather than getting stuck in the endless round of, "Yes, I am listening." "No, you're not listening," and we have this meta fight that starts happening, it encourages the conversation to go deeper. "Why are you not feeling heard? I don't understand. I want to understand." It just takes it to a different place.PAM: Yeah. And that's a great example of getting to the underlying needs, because so often, we can take that need and jump to the solution and share the solution. Not feeling heard, the solution is for them to listen to me. So, I say, "You're not listening to me." But they feel that they are. So, that doesn't click for them. So, if you go to the root, to the need, the need is, I'm not feeling heard. Then maybe there is a different way. It's less confrontational and it's also more fundamentally accurate.I'm not feeling heard. That's where we are. If you can come up with new and interesting ways for me to feel heard or for me to see that you're hearing what I'm saying, that's where the rub is right now. I don't need to give them the solution that I think they need to do.ANNA: Right, Exactly. Because again, that gets us in that meta argument, which just never ends well. Okay, so, what barriers do you see to living consensually? And how would it feel to set them aside? And I think this one's important, because I think for most of us growing up, we may not have had choices and consent in all areas our life. So, it's not necessarily something that we have a lot of experience with, but I think you can feel the difference. And so, I think even just the thought experiment of setting it aside, what would it look like to have this collaborative relationship with all the people that I live with? How would I feel?Think of the areas that rub or that feel draining for you in your day. Would changing that paradigm soften some of that? I think that'll be interesting.And the last one is, this week, practice contemplating the underlying need that your friend or partner is trying to meet through their actions. I think write out some examples so that you can start to see patterns, because we can see patterns of, when they're tired, they get a little grumpier. It can be hungry. It can be things like that. And it can just be, oh, okay, this one thing kind of triggers this same type of argument each time, so there must be something else under it.And so, I think when we start to look for patterns, when we start to think about it, for me, behaviors are always a reflection of a need. So, when we see a behavior, whether we like it or don't like it, look at what's the need that's playing out here? And so, when this is not in a charged situation, as well, then we start to just be better at recognizing the behaviors as a reflection of needs. And then we get better at it. Like we said, it's just practice and learning. And so, then we don't get stuck at that rubbing point of the behavior.PAM: And I think it is so valuable for us to start with contemplating it, because if you all of a sudden start, when you're having a conversation or conflict with someone, saying, well, what is the need underneath? Why are you asking for that? That can be off putting. And they're not thinking in that way yet, so they may well not be able to answer that question for you.But when we start thinking that way, like that example that we just talked about, you're not listening, but I want to feel heard, when we start practicing that, over time we get better with identifying those. And the other piece being, I also love your patterns note, because there can also be patterns to when those things bubble up for them and we can even play with addressing those needs.When somebody starts to feel a little bit grumpy and you've seen over time that it's often when they haven't eaten or anything, even if we just like grab a glass of water or whatever, bring a drink, bring a quick snack. Don't say anything. Just hand it to them while you're starting into the conversation and just see how that goes, back to the playing with it.But yeah, being able to contemplate it ourselves and start to see it without putting expectations on other people to meet us right there. When we start doing this, they will get curious. We will have opportunities outside of the charged moments to mention these things. So, it's something we can all get to, but again, needs time to practice, needs time to just kind of soak in the ethos.ANNA: And having that self awareness piece. When when I make it have an action, what's my driving need? What need am I trying to meet with this action? From simple things like I'm calling a friend. "Hey, I'm feeling lonely, or I'm feeling like I want to be heard by someone, or I'm just wanting to connect." It can be anything. But if we start to just understand that the behaviors are always driven by a need, it just gets easier and faster to recognize them.PAM: It does. It does so much. Okay. Okay. Thank you so much for listening everyone, and we will see you next time. Bye.ANNA: Bye bye.

In this week's episode, we're talking about seeing through someone else's eyes, rather than walking in their shoes. This is a valuable paradigm shift to consider when trying to learn more about the people in our lives. By considering people's unique personalities, interests, and sensitivities, we can better understand their choices and avoid a lot of conflict and misunderstandings.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.Take a moment to think about a close friend or loved one. How would you describe their aspirations and goals, their strengths and weaknesses, and their interests and passions?Pick an issue or challenge you recently navigated with family or friends. What did it look like through your eyes? Now try to see it through the eyes of someone else who was involved. How does it look different? How does it look the same? Why?Remember a time you judged someone else about their choice or decision. Where did that judgment stem from? If you released that judgment and got more curious about why that choice made sense for them, how might things have played out differently?Let's explore the story of you. What are your current aspirations and goals? Strengths and weaknesses? Interests and passions? How do they inform the day to day choices you make?TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are thrilled you're interested in exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.And in today's episode, we are going to talk about seeing through someone else's eyes. This was another big paradigm shift for me in how I choose to be in relationship with others, because over the years, I have often heard the advice to walk in the other person's shoes so that we can better understand them and what they're experiencing.But I discovered that, for me, that didn't go quite far enough. So, I put myself in my partner's shoes or my child's shoes, see what challenges and constraints they were facing, and come up with what I thought was a great plan for moving forward. And then they didn't agree. And I was like, "What? Why not? This is perfect!" I just didn't understand why they wouldn't follow my suggestions and I judged them negatively for their lack of cooperation. Like, "Let's move through this, people! Here's a great way to do it. You're just being stubborn." They must see how well my plan would work out.So, when that wasn't working, I dug into it more. And jumping off what we talked about last week about how different people are in so many ways, I realized that putting myself in someone else's shoes meant that I was still using my experiences and perspectives, my ways of processing, and my preferred ways of engaging with the world. I was still filtering this new view of the world through the lenses that made sense to me.I discovered that beyond walking in their shoes, I wanted to try seeing through their eyes. Oh my goodness! The picture is so much richer. It holds their experiences and preferences, how they prefer to process information, and how they prefer to engage with the world. It holds their aspirations and goals, their strengths and weaknesses, their interests and passions.And their choices now made so much more sense to me, because I can see how they were the best choices for them. In the same situation, I, in their shoes, may well make a very different choice, but that is entirely because I'm me. Because people are different, when I want to connect with someone, when I want to more fully understand their experiences and support them as they move through their days, putting myself in their shoes isn't as helpful as seeing it through their eyes.ANNA: Oh my goodness. Yes! I really loved when I first heard you talking about this, because it really puts this very helpful visual on why my attempts at solving things for everybody falls a bit flat. And I love to solve things. And in my early days, my inclination was definitely to look at someone's concern and set about finding a solution for them. And it was often rooted in how I would want to handle it, how would I want to move through it? But like you said, as soon as you start digging into this, really even at all, you see why it doesn't work. And, as is so often the case, turning it around really helps me see why.So, I have this close friend and she moves through the world in a very different way. She is a go-getter. She makes the call. She finishes the thing. She tells people what she needs in this very direct way. So, when I would share something with her, she would offer advice based on how she moves through the world and it would often just leave me feeling misunderstood, really. Disconnected.It wasn't that her ideas weren't valid or even amazing, but they were not likely to work for me, because it just isn't as easy for me to make that call to someone out of the blue or to be super direct about what I need from them. But when someone understands those pieces about me, they can help me find ways to get what I want that feel comfortable. Maybe there will be some stretching and that's okay, but it'll be grounded in who I am and give me the best chance of actually being able to do it and to solve the problem that's in front of me to begin with.So, that realization really helped me stop doing it to others. And instead, I focused on listening and learning and seeing through their eyes, helping them find ways that resonated with them and who they are and how they want to move through the world.PAM: Yes. And I think it is really important to just note that seeing through someone else's eyes is a skill that we get better with over time. We need to practice with releasing our lenses. Sometimes we've got lenses in there that we really don't know that we have until we start pulling them away. And how can we not value our way of seeing it and being in the world as better? It goes back to last week's episode. We're all different, and that's okay. One way isn't better than the other, except that that's our natural tendency to do it. So, it can be hard to just release that valuing, because it really is better for us.And also, our relationships with our loved ones become more connected just because we come to better understand their aspirations and goals, their strengths and weaknesses, and their interests and passions, which means we can more accurately bring those aspects into the picture and vice versa. We are sharing ours and they learn more about us. It just takes time, doesn't it? We always like to think, okay, this makes sense. I'm going to do this right now. Let's go.ANNA: Forever more! But it does take time and I think with everything, be gentle with ourselves as we figure it out. And do little steps, like starting with, "Well, this is how I might move through that." Just that little qualification, being clear about that as opposed to saying, "I think you should do this," which is sometimes where we go, but that's a great start. That little qualification, "This is how I might move through that." It leaves room for connection and learning more, because at that point, they can say, "I don't think I could do that." And then you're able to learn more and have more of that conversation.But dropping the judgment piece that you were just talking about, I think, is really the most important and sometimes the hardest. "Well, if they would just do it the way I want them to, it would be solved." Well, if the "this" is not something that feels good to them, it won't solve it and it actually will just leave the person feeling like there's something wrong with them or that they're completely misunderstood and it definitely can impact our connection and relationship. And there isn't anything wrong with them. There isn't only one way to do something. They just may not want to move through the world in the same way that I do.So, we can let go of that judgment and commit to learning more about who they are and what feels best to them. Sharing our ideas, absolutely, but with this open, curious mindset that they might be seeing it in a very different way.PAM: Yes. Exactly. This tool of seeing through their eyes, how it works, is also really helpful when we just want to understand a choice they're making. Maybe they're not looking for our input.So, when we see a choice and it doesn't make sense to us, maybe it's not a choice we would ever make, but when we take a moment to see it through their eyes, all of a sudden it can make so much more sense.And, that said, sometimes no matter how hard we try to see through their eyes, we just don't understand why they want to do the thing they want to do. So, in those moments, what works for me is leaning on my understanding again, that people are different. And not taking things personally, like we talked about. They're not making this choice to piss me off. They're making it because it makes sense to them.So, that helps me move through any judgment of them that I might be feeling, and instead get curious. Because judgment is not only disconnecting, it's often a clue that I'm just missing something. So, I might ask more questions to try to better understand and absolutely, sometimes that helps. Sometimes I was just missing this little piece. It's like, oh, yeah, okay. Yeah, that makes sense.Sometimes they can't explain things in a way though that makes sense to us. That again, doesn't mean that they're wrong. I can choose to trust them to make their own decisions, and we will all learn more as things unfold over time. That is beautiful. When we see how things unfold, when we see their next step and their next step, we see a bigger picture of what's happening.And if things do go a bit sideways for them, when I'm not bringing that judgmental energy of, "I told you so. I had a better idea," when we're not bringing that to the conversation, we can support them as they tweak their path over time to get where they want to go.Or maybe I discover a new aspect of them that I didn't know about. Maybe it's a new aspiration that's been bubbling up. Maybe it's a fear, a new interest, a sensitivity, like we talked about before, that may be developing.So, when we're open and curious about the people that we're in relationship with, we all grow and learn and change alongside each other, which is so much more connecting and fun than trying to coax and control each other to do what we think is best. ANNA: So much yes. My goal is connection and part of that is understanding these differences and not only learning to understand, but the next step is really celebrating. And when we can celebrate even when we don't fully understand, that makes such a difference. The world is richer for us all playing to our strengths and supporting one another to do that. This is especially true for the people we are choosing to share our life with. But, I mean, for me, it really goes for all people.It's back to that generous assumption and cultivating an open, curious mindset, so that we can begin to understand why people are seeing the world differently. Why are they choosing differently? And knowing that those different ways of seeing and doing are not attacks on our way of seeing and doing. Both can and do exist. And to be in relationship with someone, celebrating that instead of judging helps us avoid conflicts and misunderstanding, and it really deepens that trust and bond we have with each other, because we feel deeply understood, which is so important to us as humans, often.PAM: So much. Just take a moment to sink into that and just feel, somebody knowing us to that level, which also includes us knowing ourselves. We kind of need to get there ourselves before we can even share those pieces of information with others. But, as you said, it does help us avoid so much conflict and misunderstanding and taking things personally and judging others and having expectations of others, and instead, deepens our connection, deepens our trust, deepens that whole bond that we have, within our whole family.And then, as you said, it's our choice how deep and strong a relationship we want with anybody who passes through our lives. So many of these tools are also useful, at least I have found, in my extended relationships as well.So, here are some questions that you might want to ponder as you explore this really fun difference between walking in someone's shoes and seeing through their eyes. So, the first one is, take a moment to think about a close friend or a loved one. How would you describe their aspirations and goals, their strengths and weaknesses, and their interests and passions? It's really fun to do that. And then, you know what? It might be really fun to check in with them. And say, "Hey, this is what I'm thinking. This is how I'm seeing you. What have I nailed? What have I maybe gone a little sideways on?" It could spark a really, really fun conversation.ANNA: Yeah. I think that's a great conversation.PAM: Yeah. Especially when we just come at it that way, rather than it coming out after a conflict or around a conflict or something. There is no energy and judgment in the air. It's just like, let's have this fun conversation. Okay. Next.Pick an issue or challenge that you recently navigated with family or friends. What did it look like through your eyes? Now try to see it through the eyes of someone else who was involved. How does it look different? How does it look the same? Why do you think that is? Just start playing with that, as well. Where are the the places where you see the same things and where might we see things differently? And then maybe play it through a little bit more, like the choices that people made throughout whatever issue or challenge it was, do they make more sense to you now that you're looking at it through their eyes?ANNA: I think what happens when we do this piece, where we step back and go, how are they seeing it? It takes some of the charge out of it, because when we are only seeing through our eyes, we're bulldozing down the tunnel to get to our end point. But when we step back and go, oh my gosh, I can see how they're seeing that in a really different way, suddenly, the charge comes out of it and we can get on the same team. We can go, okay, I'm seeing it this way. You're seeing it that way. Let's talk about that. It just changes that whole dynamic of the head butting that can happen, you know?PAM: Yeah. And just think how that helps everyone involved feel seen and heard, no matter what the end path is. When we recognize how other people are experiencing it, that can be so valuable. All right, next.Remember a time you judged someone else about their choice or decision, and now let's do a thought experiment with that. Where did that judgment stem from? If you released that judgment and got more curious about why that choice made sense for them, how might things have played out differently? One thing that's important for us and why that playful attitude helps is it's not valuable for us to judge our past actions and thoughts. We're learning more now. We're playing with things now. The stuff that we're figuring out, we can bring with us into future encounters, future engagements, conflicts, choices, all those pieces.So we can, in our own thought experiments, play around with anything. It's okay that, man, I felt really judgey about that person that day or this thing that I saw. Maybe I know nobody who was involved, but it's worth it to think, okay, where did that judgment come from? What does that mean for me? Why is that important to me? All those pieces can be really helpful for understanding ourselves and for making maybe different choices as we move forward.ANNA: Right. That's what I was going to say. I think when we play around with some of these ones in the past, again, this is not to judge how we handled something in the past. This is not to make ourselves feel bad. But it's giving us a chance in a lower charged environment to look at that. And I think when we recognize where the judgment came in and recognize how it maybe didn't serve us in that situation, when we feel it bubbling up when something comes up ahead of us, we can go, oh, okay, this judgment, do I want to look into this now? Do I want to dig back and peel some layers back now? And so, I think that practice can help us actually help in the moment or the things that are to come.PAM: Exactly. And lastly, let's explore the story of you. What are your current aspirations and goal, strengths and weaknesses, interests and passions? How do they inform the day-to-day choices you make? I think sometimes we can kind of disconnect. We can think of these big things like, what are my goals? What are my strengths? How do I like to do things? What are my passions? And yet, we don't bring those down into our day-to-day. Or we don't make the connection. They may be subconsciously directing our choices throughout the day, because our mind knows these are the things that we value.But when we can recognize that, we can also notice that we're making more progress than we think towards our goal, et cetera. So, understanding how all those pieces weave together can be so valuable for ourselves. So, it's absolutely helpful to do this.ANNA: Yeah, and I think, too, it kind of reminds me of the priorities episode, too, with that intentionality we're bringing it, but I think what I really want to say about this question, and we'll keep talking about this, we need to develop our own self-awareness in order to be able to communicate with our partners. So, in order to be able to say what's important to us and what we're doing so that they can understand, because none of us are mind readers. So, this work of really digging into, what am I excited about? What's making me tick? How am I looking at these things? is so valuable on so many layers for us and for those in our lives.PAM: Exactly. Yes. We hope you have so much fun with these questions and we would be happy to carry on the conversation, whether you want to comment on YouTube, whether you want to comment on Instagram. We would love to hear some of your processing through these questions if you'd like to share. And thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time. Bye!

This week, we're talking about connection!How connected we're feeling to the people in our lives is a helpful barometer of our relationships. Feeling disconnected can be a sign that it's time to more intentionally cultivate connecting moments. Anna shares one of the questions that guides her decision-making: 'Is what I'm about to do going to enhance or harm my connection with this person?' We also explore the idea of bids for connection, which can be an enlightening lens through which to view our interactions. We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. And join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.What does connection with another person feel like for you?What are some ways you might connect with the people in your family? What do they love to do? What do you love to do? How might those overlap?How do you typically react when an attempt to connect with someone goes unexpectedly? Would that change if you framed it as learning something new about them?What bids for connection do you notice and are you responding in the way you'd like to?TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are excited you found us, and are interested in exploring our relationships and who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we choose to move through the world. And in today's episode, we are going to talk about connection.So, connecting with another person on an emotional level creates a feeling of being in alignment with them, of understanding and appreciating each other in that moment. Regularly cultivating connection with someone builds a stronger and stronger relationship with them. You get to know and understand each other better. You come to anticipate their needs and they, yours.So, for me, how connected I'm feeling to another person is kind of a barometer of our relationship. If I'm feeling disconnected, I more purposefully seek out connecting moments with them. A connecting moment might be sharing an activity together, from watching a movie, going for a walk, playing a game, whatever feels good together.But the really important piece for it to be connecting is that the other person needs to enjoy it. This was something that I had to learn along the way. It's not particularly connecting for me to cajole my partner into going for a walk with me if they don't enjoy walks. They will likely spend a good chunk of that time looking forward to it being over, rather than enjoying each other's company. They will just have that in the back of their mind. "Have we walked long enough? Have we walked far enough? When's it time to turn back?"So, if I want to connect with someone, whether it be a partner, child, friend, it is helpful to suggest an activity that they enjoy. They will also feel seen and heard by that. "Oh, they know how much I love to go for a walk. Yay!" Or, "to play that game, yay!" etc. That will help them feel seen as the person they are by me, because connecting with another person really is about seeing and celebrating them for who they are, not who I wish they were. That is a subtle but very important difference.And in that space of enjoying an activity together, often we can both chat more freely and openly, learning more about what's up in each other's days, sharing what we've been enjoying, and what challenges we may be feeling. That is connecting with them. It doesn't need to be anything big, doesn't need to be anything special, but doing things together that we enjoy opens up that space for connecting and conversations and sharing little pieces of ourselves with each other.So, what does connection look like for you, Anna?ANNA: You know I'm excited to talk about connection! I keep connection as a lens for just about everything. I often ask myself, is what I'm about to say or do, going to enhance or harm my connection with this person? And if I'm honest about that and act from a place of choosing connection, conflicts are avoided. The lines of communication remain open. Because here's the thing. So, I'm choosing to be in relationship with this person. I love them. I want us to enjoy our time together, so I want to take ownership of who I am. I want to act from a place of being the person that I want to be. And for me, that person is kind and compassionate and extends unconditional regard to my loved ones.Do I fall short of that sometimes? Yes. Yes, I do.But if I keep connection as the lens, if I check in about my actions before acting, I can choose to be that person more and more. And it becomes easier and easier.The other thing about being connected that I want to talk about is that we're on the same team. I talk to a lot of couples who are approaching disagreements or meeting their needs as basically this zero-sum game. When, instead, we keep our connection at the forefront, we're able to approach problems and meeting each other's needs as a puzzle that we're solving together. We're on the same side.We can give each other that generous assumption, which is basically we love each other. We're in this together. We want to help each other feel seen and heard. We want each of our needs to be met. Coming from that place leaves a world of possibilities that we cannot see when we're tunneling in and defending our own needs without regard for the other in this oppositional, volleying back and forth, defend and receive.PAM: Exactly. Feeling connected with another person really does feel like we're on the same team. I love that. We are in alignment. We want to help each other get our needs met and work toward accomplishing our goals.For me, that feeling of being on the same team makes all the difference in our interactions, in our connection. Conflicts, or even just conversations, aren't that back and forth of offense and defense and winner and loser and how many times have they won and how many times have I lost, etc. It is just a team effort in creatively trying to meet everyone's needs and wishes and help each other along. That just feels so much better, too.ANNA: So much better.PAM: One thing I also wanted to mention is that sometimes our attempts at connection may not land with the other person. They may even go sideways, like, what the heck? That is totally okay. Like really, that's okay. It is not a failure. We don't need to take that personally, as an attack on us. Again, like offense/defense.In fact, same team, when you bring that lens, we can often use that to learn a bit more about them. Oh, what was it about that thing? Was it the activity that they weren't interested in? Were they busy with somebody or something that's important to them? Maybe they're stressed about something that's going on in their life, like a work issue. Something else has their focus. So, it doesn't need to be a rejection of us. It's like, oh, there's other things going on in our life. And we can really be so quick to take everything personally. I definitely know that I can, but when I can take that moment to remember, no, it doesn't need to be about me, per se. What else is going on? It is so interesting and so often, that's really the case. They're not trying to piss us off or trying to make us feel bad.None of that.ANNA: It's not about us at all usually.PAM: Exactly. Or in that moment, maybe we can learn a bit about ourselves or maybe both. Right? Maybe we put out-sized expectations on the other person. Maybe we didn't end up enjoying the activity and we're the one who's distracted instead of engaged in the moment. Maybe we were tired, like we just felt like we needed to do this thing and we pushed ourselves to try and connect with them, but in the end, it didn't turn out very well for us. Life happens. We learn from that experience and we try again.We are always learning. There is just so much about each other. When we're talking about relationships, there's so much to learn, because we are different in each moment. When we're tired, we're different in that moment. The things that we can do are different, the conversations that we can have, but being more open and honest about those moments, it is so helpful for relationships.And it also helps to be open to noticing when your partner or your child is trying to connect with you and try to be responsive in those moments.If we are stuck in our heads, it can feel like we're the only one prioritizing the relationship. We feel like we're the only ones inviting and inviting. But if we can notice, so often, we may not realize what it is at first, but when they invite us to join them, chances are they are looking to connect with us. And it may look very different than how we might want to connect with them, but a connection is just as valuable either way.And, in fact, it enhances relationship when the connections go both ways. There's a term that we toss around, we learned about last year or so, was it? Bids for connection. You want to talk about that a little bit more?ANNA: Yeah, I definitely want to touch on bids for connection. I think the idea comes from the Gottman Institute. The funny thing about them is they don't always look straight forward like, "Hey, I want to feel closer to you now." Sometimes it looks like picking a fight or a grumpy comment. Sometimes it looks like asking for something that we can do ourselves. "Hey, can you get me water, even though you have to walk in front of me to go get the water that I'm asking for?" Sometimes it looks like pulling away or getting quiet. And as we learn more about each other, we see the bids for what they are and the underlying need that they're trying to meet. And then we can check in and respond with kindness and that can open up the lines of communication and avoid a situation where people don't feel heard.Love languages can also play a role here. Knowing how we give and receive love can help make sure that what we're putting out is love is being received as such.But with the bids, like you said, it's so interesting, because we'll be in our heads about, I want to make this relationship better, and maybe that person's telling us a story from work and we're actually still in our head thinking, "We're not doing relationship things," or we're not doing the thing the way it looks in our head.But really, wanting to share that bit from work or the child wanting to share the bit about their game, that is the bid for connection. That is them wanting to bring us into their world. And so, for me, I just want to keep really open to that. I just want to be open, so that I'm seeing that in the people that are around me that I love, and that I'm acknowledging that and I'm responding.And yes, like you said earlier, sometimes we have capacity issues to deal with. Sometimes there just isn't enough, or the time is not right, or we're tired. But I find even in those situations, when I see the bid, I'm able to acknowledge the bid. Even if I can't dive in fully to maybe what they're needing for the, in that moment, it's so much better than brushing it off.PAM: Yes, when you can acknowledge it and be a bit transparent by saying, "Ah, that's wonderful. I love that. I can't wait to join you, or I can't wait to hear that story. I'm just really tired right now. Can we do it in the morning? Can we do it after I've had a nap? Or I'm just going to sit here and have a tea or a coffee for a few minutes," to acknowledge so that they feel seen and heard in that moment.And there was one other thing that came up. So, as we've been talking this whole time about connection, and you touched on this and I think it's super important, is the idea that we can have these visions in our head of what being in relationship means. And it can mean all sorts of fancy things in our head. We can have these visions of, we need to go out on a date every week, right? We need to go outside of the house, all these pieces. And the everyday connection doesn't count. But, truly, in the everyday connection, that is the foundation. Those are the connections that we're building.It doesn't mean we don't do the bigger things. It just means the relationship isn't on hold between the bigger things.ANNA: Exactly. And this is what we were talking about that I said in the first episode that we're going to keep repeating, it's that outside voice, because I think we come into it maybe from movies, whatever, that we had this idea of what relationships look like, but it really is the everyday of just sharing the ups and downs and getting the things done around the house and just moving through our days together that builds that foundation, that then we can do all these other fun things and big things. Because the reality is, the big fun things are going to be sprinkled throughout our year. But if that's what we're pinning our hopes on, that's not going to get us through. So, we have to figure out how to keep that connection alive and rich and wonderful in those everyday moments. And it is listening for those bids. It is being available.PAM: Yes. And just think for a moment, when you have that connection going throughout your days, your every days, you're already pretty well connected when those bigger moments come. And how much more fun are those when you're already connected, instead of thinking-ANNA: We're going to get it there!PAM: We have to go and relearn each other for our weekend away. Let's reconnect, finally.ANNA: Right. And isn't that why some of those things go awry? Sometimes, we have this idea like, we're going to have this amazing date, or we're going to take this amazing trip and then it ends up falling flat. But I think so much of that is because maybe we haven't been tending to those pieces in between, and so, we're pinning our hopes on this big time away or this big thing, and it falls a little bit short.So, yeah, I think that's super interesting to watch for and think about.PAM: Yes. Yes. Okay. So, I have some questions to share for people to ponder as they're exploring connections, alongside all the ones we've already talked about.So, what does connection with another person feel like for you?What are some ways you might connect with the people in your family? What do they love to do? What do you love to do? What do you love to do together? How can these different things overlap? It doesn't always need to be one thing. Sitting on the couch together or playing a game together, those are all perfectly wonderful ways to connect.How do you typically react when an attempt to connect, a bid for connection that we're putting out, goes unexpectedly? So, when you offer up, "Oh, let's sit down and have a coffee together, or a tea together," and they say no, how do you typically react? How does that feel? Would that change if you framed it as a learning something new about them? "Oh, I didn't know they were really into the thing they were doing. Oh, I didn't know that thing went strange at work today, and you're really worried about that," because those things going awry are actually opportunities to learn more.And then, again, let's think about the bits for connection coming the other way. Just keep an eye open for that over the next little while. I love what you said that the bids don't always look perfect. As in, "Let's do this together!" It can be, "Oh, my gosh, I had such a rough day at work. I want to vent about it." That is a bid for connection. That is some support another person is looking for. And we can learn more about their lives. It can be a child really frustrated about something that went wrong and what they're trying to do, and they come to you. That's a bid for connection, for some support in what they are looking to do. Maybe it's the infamous, "I'm bored," you know? They're just looking to chat with somebody for a while.There are so many possibilities when you just open up and start looking for what might potentially be bids for connections, opportunities for connection.ANNA: Absolutely.PAM: Thank you so much for listening and we'll see you next time. Bye.

Host Anna Borges speaks with poet Nichole Perkins about doing things without the expectation for excellence. They speak about Nichole's new painting hobby and how her confidence in writing poetry is fueled by her creative license to be a hobbyist painter.  Hey Mood Ring listeners, we want to hear what you think about Mood Ring! You can help us out by filling out a short audience survey: moodringshow.org/survey Follow Mood Ring @moodringshow Follow Anna ​​@annabroges Mood Ring is a production of American Public Media and Pizza Shark!  Full Transcript Anna Borges: Hey everyone! Pop quiz for you. When you discover a new hobby that you're really enjoying, do you:   A. Strive to improve so you can be really good at it. B. Brainstorm ways to monetize it because hey, if you have to make money, you might as well have fun doing it C. Stress about other things you should be doing instead of indulging in said hobby or D. Just..en…joy? Enjoy it? Wait, some of you can actually do that?   Hey,  I'm Anna Borges, and this is Mood Ring, a practical guide to feelings—even when you feel like you can't relax and enjoy yourself.   Today, we're talking about the importance of no strings attached hobbies. You know, activities that don't have to be productive or impressive or useful and even something you're good at. Hobbies that don't have to be anything other than…enjoyable.   But a lot of things can get in the way of actually enjoying them, whether baking to relax turns into stressing about getting an Instagram-worthy loaf of bread or you get stressed out when you don't discover a secret hidden talent the first time you pick up a paintbrush. You know if you're anything like me that's exactly what I do! Letting ourselves relax and be free to do something without the expectation of a performance or an end goal is hard. Even more so when the something we love overlaps with what we do for a living.   That's where the no strings attached hobby comes in.   Today's guest is Nichole Perkins, a writer, poet, and the host of the podcast This is Good for You, where she helps people stop feeling bad about the things that they love to do.   I also wanted to talk with her because as a creative, I assume she got the struggle of the work-hobby balance well. We dug into the beauty of trying things that we aren't good at and how we can still enjoy our hobbies, even if they do come with strings attached, like overlapping with what you do for a living.   Anna: Can I start by hearing something that you're bad at? Like something that you were just like awful at, but that you love?   Nichole: Oh, um, so I recently started trying to figure out, um, acrylic painting, abstract acrylic painting. I don't know what I'm doing. I really don't know what I'm doing. I cannot draw a straight line. I cannot, I have never been able to perfect, um, a winged, you know, liner look because I cannot, I don't know what I'm doing. So that's something that I know that I am bad at, and I would never like really share that work with anybody because it's so bad, but it's also been really relaxing for me.   Anna: I love that so much. so I have to ask, cause I feel like there are like two camps of people, largely there are people who can do that and enjoy that. And there are people and I'm in this camp who will do that and be like, this is gonna be like relaxing. I'm not gonna like pressure myself to be good. And then I still am like, but what if I want this to be good? Then I wind up in the boat of like Googling art lessons and oh my God, how do I get better at this blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So like, are you, are you in one of those camps, have you felt the pressure to become good now that you've started?   Nichole: Yes, absolutely. Because there was like this one tutorial on YouTube that was like, you know, easy beginner thing and it was the sunset and it's supposed to be with, uh, power lines and beautiful trees and maybe like a little shadow of a house, right. And I tried to draw the power lines and I was just like, oh yeah, this is not, I can't do this. And I mean, I ended up kind of being still pleased with the results of what I had done, because it actually still looked like a purposeful painting. But I do want to get to a point where it looks really good, but I am still very  intimidated about trying to go, you know, find actual lessons or something like that, because I feel like I'm still very childish with, with, you know, learning this thing and I don't want to be in a classroom or whatever, you know, a workshop environment where there are people who are like, oh yeah, I used to draw, but then I stopped and now I'm back and they're like, you know.   Anna: Or they're like, I'm so bad at this. And then you look over and you're like, excuse me, if you think that's bad, don't look.   Nichole: Yes!   Anna: But that's the thing is like you, I want the natural talents. I wanna be naturally good at things like I don't want to have to work to be good at things.   Nichole: Yes. That's exactly my problem as well. So there are a lot of things, a lot of hobbies that I will try or say, I'm gonna try. And then I get frustrated because I'm not good at the first attempt. And… I really have to sit and think to myself, there are very few people who are, you know, experts at something the first time they pick it up. Like, yes, there are prodigies and all that kind of stuff. But the people that I admire on a creative level, they all had a natural talent, but they still have to practice and practice and practice and practice, you know. Like I love Prince, you know, he had natural talent, but he had to learn everything that he did and learn how to combine all of that, all of his musical skills, all of his lyricism into creating the legacy that he has now. Um, the same with like the writers that I admire. Yes, there's some, there's some natural affinity to it, but they still have to learn.   Anna: And how do you remind yourself of that? Do you have to actually give yourself the Pep talk as you're doing it?   Nichole: I do. I have to, I have to like say okay, practice, practice, practice. It's okay. I know that this is not something that I can make a living at or that I want to make a living at. So it's okay. If it is not perfect or consumable.   Anna: Why did you pick something that you're taking classes for then or not classes, but at least like watching YouTube videos?   Nichole: But I still want to like see satisfaction in my own improvement. I just wanna be able to like sit and do it without feeling the pressure of performance or like I said, that end, that end goal.   Anna: Absolutely.   Nichole: But you know, with writing, obviously that's very different, writing is something that, um, has been a part of my life for a very long time and I've always known I wanted to make a career out of it. And I just didn't really know how, um, because there's so many different ways that you can become a writer or, or make a career out of writing. I still have a lot of goals that I want to accomplish. So that's, that's more when I freeze up and let, like, I don't think I'm a perfectionist, but that fear of someone seeing my mistakes or seeing the worst of what I can do. Um, really like puts me in a choke hold sometimes.   Anna: Absolutely. Yeah. Oh, I can't wait to dive into all the writing stuff because selfishly love writing, love, love talking, writing, and art. Can you kind of, I don't know, this is a big question, but like kind of tell me a little bit more about your like current relationship to writing? Cause I know for so many of us it's work, it's like therapeutic, it's fun, it's creative, it's personal. It's like all of these things that are like seemingly at odds for each other. And I'm curious what it is kind of right now for you.   Nichole: Right now it is 90% work and then 10% just personal creativity and that personal creativity usually is my poetry. I have published a poetry book. So that was very much a goal of mine. I still, I, and I have other poetry that I would like to publish one day, but right now what pays the bills is culture writing. You know, writing books, script writing for podcasts, um, and that kind of thing. And I hope to eventually get into, um, screenwriting for film and television. Um, and I just, I want to ultimately continue to write until my dying breath. Anna: I can't lie, some days, it's harder for me to really have fun writing, thanks to how much I associate it with work. After the break, I explore poetry as a potential no-strings-attached hobby and we talk more about how to protect our favorite activities from outside pressures like work. MIDROLL Anna: Hey, welcome back to Mood Ring! Before the break, I was talking with Nichole Perkins about why it's so helpful to have hobbies that don't overlap with what we do for a living. Next up, I may or may not have asked for an impromptu poetry lesson. Anna: One of the reasons that I was so excited, um, to talk to you specifically is because growing up, I used to write a lot of poetry and I never had aspirations to do it professionally. It is just, poetry is what I associate with like playful writing, exploratory writing, me writing, all this kind of thing. And so when I started thinking about, Ooh, what can I dig up for this episode? Poetry did come to, come to mind. Oh. And so I'm, I'm kind of curious if I like asked if, like, if I asked you to just write a really God awful poem right now, like where would you start?   Nichole: Oh, well, for me, it, that would be, um, a rhyming poem. Um, and not just like in iambic pentameter, like I, I do try to do like, um, um, inside rhymes or, you know, that kind of thing. Try to switch up the, you know, where the rhyme falls, but rhyming poetry has always just escaped me. Um, and I am not good at it. So if I were to try to write something that I would consider bad, it would be rhyming. Um, and making sure that like I threw in the moon…   Anna: I do love me some moon imagery, sorry, poets.   Nichole: Right, all poets love the moon, right.   Anna: And so who doesn't love the moon? Love my girlfriend, the moon   Nichole: So that's where I would probably, probably start.   Anna: Why I, I think I find poetry so alluring as like an outlet like this is because I don't know what makes a good poem. Like I will read a poem and I like it, you know, or I won't like it, but that never makes me think this is a good poem or bad poem because it is like so much more subjective to me. I mean, like, I know all writing is subjective, but I'm just, don't have an ear for poetry. And so like, not knowing what good is, is like freeing to me because I can't strive for it.   Nichole: That's really interesting. Cuz for a lot of people who dislike poetry, part of that is because when we're in school and we're learning poetry, it is hard to say what is good and what is bad… and so it's hard for them to understand. Like what made, you know, like, [laughs] if I put this in a paragraph form, would it still, would it still have the same emotional hit? Would it still provide the same satisfaction as seeing it in its whatever format, whether it's a sonnet or, you know, um, really short broken lines, whatever. Um, so people get really frustrated cuz you, you, when you say, what is a poem? And you say, you know, it's, it's writing in verse. Well what's a verse? This, you know, short blocky paragraphs, like. Okay, well why can't we just put it in a paragraph? Why can't we just, you know, make it a, a story as opposed to a poem? And it's like, you can, you can. And the way that poetry just constantly changes. No one poem really looks like the other, um, it freaks people out because people like structure, people like rules. And one of the first things you learn about poetry is yes, this is what a sonnet is, but you can also play with the rules a little bit and change the format of a sonnet, but still call it a sonnet. And that gets people really frustrated, um, about, about poetry, right. Um, because you know, there, there are formats defined formats and then poets go in and just change them all the time. It's frustrating.   Anna: So when you're like specifically in the, kind of like that 10%, um, that you mentioned where it's like really just for you writing, like maybe you'll hope to publish someday, but it's your time? How much are you worried about it being good versus not good? Just like for you?   Nichole: Um, this is gonna sound really…   Anna: No…   Nichole: I feel like it's always good.   Anna: I believe it.   Nichole: It sounds really cocky but…   Anna: No, it doesn't own it. I, I, I mean, that is why you're a poet.   Nichole: I feel so much more confident in my poetry, and when I write, when I get to a final draft of that poem, I'm just like, yes, this is, this is really good. Um, and the only time that I start to doubt myself is when I start thinking, should I submit this someplace? Because that is when I feel like…   Anna: I mean, all of those trying to anticipate reactions, that's when it starts.   Nichole: Exactly. Because it's like, when I'm submitting the poem, it's not just me, my, my poem. It is against all the other submissions that are maybe dealing with more, more political topics, more cultural, uh, culture based topics or, um, you know, things like that. And so me writing about, you know, a piece of fruit may not hold up as well against a poem where someone is talking about traumatic events, you know, or something like that. Which is not to say that that poem should not be considered better than mine. Like it can be, it might be. Um, but it's just a matter of like, well, now my poem has moved from the context of my journal, into the context of the world. Can it stand up against, you know, whatever else the editors are looking at, you know, whatever else the readers are looking at.   Anna: It has to be something.   Nichole: And so I feel when I sit down and, and write it, I feel very, yeah, just assured of myself in, that feels good. It feels good to be able to approach a creative talent with confidence. And so I try to give myself room to move from terrible painting [laugh] to really good poetry or, you know what I hope will be really good fiction. Anna: Yeah. Do you have any advice for people who I don't know, whatever they try and keep as like their protected space, whether that's from like trying not to monetize a hobby or not trying to like worry about being good at something like, other than just really reminding yourself of that. Do you have any advice for protecting that space or like keeping that attitude? Nichole: I think in this day and age, I would say try not to feel compelled to share, right. Because I think that is when we freeze up, when we think, okay, I'm gonna try this new thing and I'm gonna document it on my Instagram or I'm trying this new thing and I'm gonna send pictures to the group chat, like whatever. You don't have to. I mean, it's not to say you have to keep it private or secret. But if you're able just to hold onto it for yourself and I think that's an overall problem that a lot of people have is feeling like you cannot keep anything to yourself. You have to share. It is a proof of your love to your partner, to your parents, to, you know, your audience or whatever that you're like, I'm giving you all of me, I'm trying to be transparent and that kind of thing. Again, that does not mean you're keeping secrets and hiding it and like, whatever. It's just a matter of, you can hold onto something for yourself. It's okay. It's not a betrayal to your, to your relationships, whatever they may be. If you hold onto something until you're ready to share it, you know? Anna: That's so underrated. Yeah. I feel like as someone who is pretty recognizably, a perfectionist or type A usually at like work or whatever, I find I have a really hard time explaining that sometimes keeping things to myself is for me, you know what I mean? That's not me being a perfectionist. That's me protecting myself for my perfectionist habits. Nichole: Yeah. And, and in my, um, friendships, sometimes I don't talk about like career opportunities or whatever. And I think, you know, my friends get a little upset with me when I finally do make the announcements or like share, like, why did you tell us about this before? Or why am I finding out about this, you know, from the announcement on social media? And it's like, it's not that I am hiding it, but I'm also just trying not to jinx it, you know? And that's definitely a trauma response for me where I have talked about something too soon and it's gone away, whether it was a relationship, you know, like, oh, I'm talking to this guy, things are going great. And then, he disappears and I'm like, Ugh, now, now it's gone. And that it's a little bit like perfectionism because it's, um, there is a fear of failure. I don't, I don't wanna talk about this thing because I'm afraid I'm gonna fail at it. I don't wanna talk about this guy that I'm feeling because I'm afraid it's gonna fail. It's, it's not gonna be a success. I don't wanna talk about this career opportunity because I am afraid that it's gonna fall through. And then you know, this, it'll be a rejection of me. Um, you know, I don't wanna talk about learning how to paint because what if I abandon it because I never get good at it. And then you keep asking me about painting and I'm like, I had to stop because I was a failure. Anna: No one ever asked Nicole about painting. If you listen to this episode, do not ruin this for her. I will be so mad at you. Thank you so much for, for chatting. I could have continued chatting about this kind of stuff for forever, honestly. Nichole: Thank you for having me on.  Anna: I thought I had a pretty good grasp on what made a good no-strings-attached activity for me. I knew it had to be fun to do badly, so I wouldn't get all perfectionist about it. And I knew I couldn't feel pressured for it to be something, like something I'd be tempted to monetize. But I hadn't really noticed the theme before: We need things that are just for us. It sounds simple, but it's easy to forget all the ways we're always sharing our time and attention and…well, ourselves. We multitask or document on social media or try to kill two birds with one stone with side hustles. And that's how we forget to create space for things like fucking up or being weird or creating without a goal in mind. So there's magic in keeping some things for ourselves to enjoy, no strings attached. I'd ask you to share your own no-strings-attached activities, but since I just told you to keep it for yourself, how about this: Whatever it is, why do you love it and how do you protect it? Let me know and I'll see you next time. CREDITS

Anna Spearman is the Founder of Techie Staffing, which connects high-quality technology talent with high-caliber clients. Chad talks with Anna about founding and growing the company, immediately after graduating college, during a pandemic, reputation building, and facing skepticism around her lack of track record in recruiting, and finding and providing talent for clients as a white-glove service. Techie Staffing (https://techiestaffing.com/) Follow Techie Staffing on Twitter (https://twitter.com/StaffingTechie), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/techiestaffing), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/techiestaffing/) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/techie-staffing/). Follow Anna on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/annaspearman/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Anna Spearman, the Founder of Techie Staffing, which connects high-quality technology talent with high-caliber clients. Anna, thanks so much for joining me. ANNA: Thank you so much for inviting me, Chad. CHAD: In theory, at the surface level, Techie Staffing is probably fairly straightforward in terms of what you do. But I'm curious how you got started. ANNA: Yes, of course. So I can't believe I'm saying this, but it's been two years. Two years ago, I was, during that time, attending the University of Virginia, where I was majoring in computer science with a minor in entrepreneurship. And in the spring of 2020, I was planning on coming back home to...I was born and raised in Los Angeles, and I was planning to come back home for spring break. And I was finishing out my second semester of senior year. So I was planning my [chuckles] victory lap of going back home, taking a little bit of a rest time, and then coming back to UVA to finish my degree, graduate, and move on to a new job in Los Angeles. But unfortunately, as my plane was landing in Los Angeles, we kept hearing about COVID. And so the pandemic hit in the middle of my spring break. And during that time, I had to finish my second semester of senior year remote. It was very stressful, but when I finished the degree, I was so fulfilled. But unfortunately, there was a rapid dwindling of entry-level tech and product roles. I initially either wanted to be a software engineer or a product manager or be a software engineer that transitioned into a technical product manager. But unfortunately, once the pandemic hit, companies weren't willing to ramp up entry-level talent. Companies didn't really know what was going to happen in the future, and everybody was remote. So it was just a really confusing time. But while I was searching through different job boards trying to find new opportunities, especially entry-level opportunities, I found just a wealth of senior tech jobs, specifically with companies that were thriving due to the pandemic. During that time, companies like Peloton, Discord, Zoom, they were all soaring due to the pandemic. So I had heard about contingent recruiting in the past. My biggest dream for a new opportunity for myself graduating out of college was just to learn something new every day because I've always had a very much an interdisciplinary background. I've never been able to stay in one area. I've always loved to try different things. So with a little bit of a background recruiting at a past summer internship as well as wanting to utilize my entrepreneurship minor...I'm actually a fourth-generation woman entrepreneur. So definitely, growing up, creating my own business was my dream. So really, that was my main goal. I thought I was going to transition from a current role into entrepreneurship, but I had my back against the wall. So I just thought, why not start now? So I created Techie Staffing, a technology staffing agency specializing in direct hire placements nationwide. I basically had my virtual graduation; then I took a week. And then, I got started creating the website, establishing the business paperwork, as well as developing strategic partnerships with senior technical recruiters that had full candidate pipelines to fill incoming job requisitions. And I basically started off with nothing. I had no contacts, no network, just nothing at all. And I was really starting just fresh. So I really had to really spend a lot of time networking and developing relationships as well as just learning and mastering full lifecycle recruiting, especially with engineering since there's such a supply and demand issue for software engineers. So you're just consistently following up and contacting people that could potentially be interested in your companies. But it really blew up. As I was establishing everything in 2020 from summer to the end of 2020, it was 2021 when it really blew up where I contacted this founder during the time they had raised a Series B 50 million, which was amazing, and they were going through a hiring sprint. So we got connected fairly quickly. And with just great team synergy, we were actually able to place five people in one month, and it was frontend, backend, and full-stack developers. So that really jump-started Techie Staffing. And then after that, we worked with...we're now working with Fortune 500 companies as well as high-growth startups and really building a diversified portfolio, and we're also a certified woman-owned business which I'm so proud of because there aren't really a lot of women or even just women of color that are founders. So I was really happy to get that certification, really proud of that as well. I always say all the time to everybody it's super stressful, but it's so rewarding at the same time. And I do believe that it's honestly, you know, I know the pandemic has been super hard on people. And it's been such a change and such a shift. But there is still a part of me that is so grateful for making that pivot because I really found something that I feel like I really enjoy doing every day. CHAD: That's great. I really commend you on everything you've done so far. And I'm excited about what you're going to do in the future. You now have grown where you're multiple people on your team. ANNA: Yeah, so we actually hired two new people fairly recently. I did have one direct hire recruiter working with me. So now it's officially a team of four. I did develop the strategic part. I do still have some strategic partnerships as well because on that part, at first, I was partnering with recruiters that were independent, so who were a little bit more entrepreneurial so that we could split the placement fee. But it's still better to just have full-time employees. I'm so excited to have two new additional hires, and it's still new for me. So I'm really looking forward to growing together in terms of growing Techie Staffing and growing into being a full life cycle recruiter because it wasn't that long ago when I was in that same exact spot. And it's so amazing. It still blows my mind to this day how two years ago, thinking about interviewing candidates or selling to clients, and now what I've evolved in. It's been absolutely amazing. So I'm so happy to see their journey and seeing them transition into being technical recruiters and also making a pivot in their career as well, which that's still blowing my mind a little bit. I'm sure you know founding thoughtbot and really building that from the ground up. So it's just amazing seeing that infrastructure. It just really brings a brighter future as well. CHAD: So what kind of people do you look for when you're looking to add to your team? Are you bringing on people who have experience with recruiting? Or are you bringing on people who are transitioning into it? ANNA: I would say for Q1 and Q2 of 2022 and even a little bit beforehand, since there was a surge in demand for everything and tech companies were just scaling like crazy, there was very much a competitive market for recruiters, specifically technical recruiters. Because that's what companies were really looking for to scale their engineering and product teams. So it was very, very competitive to recruit for a technical recruiter. So now you see agencies now who are hiring people who can have the DNA for a technical recruiter but not necessarily have direct experience, which I think can be really, really cool. Because like I said, like two years ago, I knew absolutely nothing, and now I feel very much confident in the full life cycle. So I think that's really cool to have people be able to pivot into a really cool industry where you're really learning something new every day, and you're speaking to really interesting people. We specialize in senior up until C-suite, so yeah, learning from people who are senior all the way up to Director, VP. So it's really interesting. So when I was approaching hiring, I really wanted to find someone who had that DNA that can potentially transition to being a technical recruiter. And that DNA would be, you know, it doesn't have to be personality but just really interacting with engineers, just maybe being a self-starter. I would say great communication, and lastly, I would say just really hungry. Yes, I would say hungry. Because if you're really hungry and you're really willing to learn and be open, so openness as well, then you can really understand the rules or just the lifecycle and the process of being a recruiter, and then you can change people's lives. I actually had one...It was about a year ago, I was working with a Fortune 500 company, and I recruited this guy, and I led him through the process. And it was about maybe a month later when he told me I had basically changed his life. Him and his family were now moving to Atlanta, and it was a new role, and it was just a fresh start. And he was just telling me how appreciative he was of me, and so that really hit home. So I think for those two new hires, I'm so excited to have them get super engaged and be able to change other people's lives as well under the Techie Staffing name, of course. CHAD: You mentioned early on that you're contingent recruiting. So correct me if I'm wrong, but that means that you get paid when you place somebody, when someone gets hired from the company that hires them. ANNA: Yes. CHAD: But then you also mentioned that these people who you're bringing onto your team are full-time. So how does the compensation structure typically work for them? ANNA: Oh, compensation, we have them on salary, but they do have commission. So we wanted to really give; like I said, I want us to grow together. So I do provide commission for each placement they'll place just to really provide incentive. Like I said, it's so early. I want us to think of each other just as teammates and a team because we're all building towards the same goal. So just really wanted to provide incentives where they're really feeling like they're almost owning it full life cycle as well. Because like I said, it's early on, and these can be really strong pillars in the future. So there is salary, but there's also that commission as well to just really provide that incentive. And I know for me personally, incentive can be awesome, so definitely trying to provide that motivation and having them really feel like they're an integral part. CHAD: What's the harder part of your business? Or are they equally hard, finding new clients versus finding people who want to work with you on the candidate side? ANNA: On the business development side, I would say it was harder perhaps in the beginning because I just so was starting with nothing, really. I had just graduated from college. And a lot of agency owners they previously have maybe worked at a really cool tech startup, or maybe they've been working on their agencies for the past 5 or 10 years. They have previous years of experience, but I didn't have that. So I had to convey another method of just really networking, really meeting people, and just really knowing my stuff and having a handle on it. I know maybe a lot of people say, like, just fake it until you make it because then once you make it, and then you get that experience, then you can transfer that experience to new experiences as well. So at first, it was really just building myself up and building the Techie Staffing brand so that we could acquire those clients. In terms of the candidate side, I would say Techie Staffing, and one of the things and part of our brand that we love to portray is that we are the agency that has the companies with the best employer branding. Because like I said, with the supply and demand issue for the software engineers, it is so competitive to attract them to new opportunities. There are just so many companies that are contacting them multiple times a day. So there has to be at least a little bit of a shine or a little bit of a differentiator for companies that you're recruiting for. So we actually specialize in companies that are Series B and above that do have that established employer branding where engineers are really interested in joining that company, so that's just the thing. It's like really having companies that have strong employer branding and being able to follow up. Follow-ups are really, really important when it comes to engaging engineers because, like I said, it's just a super competitive market and just trying to provide them a great white-glove experience. There are some agencies that fall a little bit too close to the client-side where the client is always right. And there are some that fall too much to the candidate side where the candidate is right, but we really want to be a balanced middleman where we're just trying to find the compromise and find the best solution for everybody. So that's the real important part of it of just really providing them with a great experience and showing them that we care and that we're rooting for them. Because it sometimes does surprise me when candidates can be a little...maybe this is a part of me being new. But that's kind of an advantage, too, because I'm still paying attention to detail. That's where my computer science major comes in. It's like constantly trying to stay in tune with candidates and what they need, so just trying to provide a great experience in general. And I'm sure you feel that way with your clients. You're a consultancy as well where you're trying to be B2B and contact these different companies. So how do you conduct business development and really differentiate yourself? CHAD: We focused a lot on reputation building, so blogging, creating open source so that we don't need, fortunately, to cold contact people. And when we do, we're fortunate enough that they might already know about us. And so it's an easier conversation to have because they may already be reading our blog, or they may already be using some of our open source in their product. And so it becomes an easier conversation to have. But the majority of our clients actually come to us when they have a need because we're fortunate enough to have worked to be at the top of the list. ANNA: Definitely, yeah. And I'm still doing that, just reputation building. With one of our Fortune 500, we're doing incredibly well with them to the point where we're filling their pipelines, and we have majority of our candidates in their pipeline. So that's what we're really working on right now is just consistently...and I know like with any business, you have to just constantly build that reputation. So I especially just try to provide a great experience for candidates because they can also be hiring managers as well, so just really providing that white-glove experience. And also, a cool differentiator we always like to showcase is like, I'm a computer science major. And actually, the two people that I just hired have a tech background. So it's not like tech is entirely foreign to us. We've engaged with programming languages. We've coded projects. So we do have some form of understanding when it comes to certain technologies or certain projects that certain engineers are working on. And that's what really gets me excited to speak with engineers because it's so cool and interesting hearing about them working on their projects and working on projects that directly affect me and the products that I'm interacting with. So it's so cool to hear about their...I can understand a bit. And so that's another thing we have with Techie Staffing is really finding people who have a bit of a tech background so at least they have a little bit of knowledge or an understanding of what projects and can be able to really share and convey that to clients that are looking for this talent. CHAD: You mentioned it's a really competitive market now. And as a company who probably has multiple clients, how do you minimize or how do you deal with the potential competition for the limited supply among your own clients? ANNA: Among my own clients, I will say that right now we don't have...for the roles that we're working on for each client, they're not very similar or too, too similar, which is a good thing. We would like it in the future where we could have the same role, but we can understand how that can be a little tricky as well. CHAD: And how do they differ then? Are they differing by the technology experience that they're looking for or the sort of level of the role? How are they different? ANNA: It could be technology, difference of the role. So, for example, for a Fortune 500 company that we're working with, we'll work more with UX, data science, data science roles, as well as...so UX, data science. And then for high-growth startups, mostly with them, they're really looking for back-end engineers, but overall just engineering so frontend, backend, DevOps. We are working potentially to do engineering or more engineering-heavy for our Fortune 500 companies. We have recently been working on a VP of engineering. So for Fortune 500 for now, we've been working more with leadership roles especially, and for high-growth, it's been more engineering IC. But we would like to transition that in the future to have it kind of...or have roles that maybe some candidates could go to this company, and some candidates can go to that startup. And then another differentiator could be or what makes our clientele different from each other is for high-growth startups, especially for engineering ICs, they're really looking for candidates that come from high-growth startups who just understand the current company where they are, and how they're scaling during that period of time around that series B and series C. That's the time to really scale. And Fortune 500 companies they can be open to startups, but for the most part, especially sometimes for leaders who need to have a certain amount of direct reports, they're more looking for people from larger companies. So that would be one way to kind of separate it and so we're not having candidates almost be where they have to compete with candidates within our own company. Because with the difference in the leveling of companies, there's just a difference in what kind of candidates that they're looking for. Mid-Roll Ad: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? We know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it's easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn't looking. By delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer. Save time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: url tbot.io/devops CHAD: When I was first starting thoughtbot, I really felt like I needed to take every client that we could get because we were just starting out. We needed to make money. We needed to build a reputation. And so, I felt like we needed to say yes to every client. Over the years, I learned that that was actually watering us down, and it made us less successful. And the more we were clear about who we were, and what we did, and what clients we were best for, the more successful we were. Have you gotten to the point where you needed to turn down clients? ANNA: Because I do such targeted biz dev, we will contact companies that we personally want to work with. But I will say in the beginning, there were some companies that were a lot smaller that, just like you said, you just felt the need to want to rack up a client list. And you just are ready to go and wanting to work with someone. It really motivated me to really take a look and really go deep into the type of clients that we want. So, for example, really, really early-stage companies can have a really, really hard time hiring because, like I said, employer branding is so, so important. And so usually what they'll have is maybe like mission, but they won't really have salary. Or they won't really have the employer branding of the company of candidates either knowing about the company or being able to search the company really quickly and seeing the platform that the company is building and seeing how strong it is. So it's really, really hard to recruit for those stages. I mean, it is possible, but it's just really hard. And then at the same time for these early-stage companies, they really want to, which I totally understand, you know, when you're having your probably 8th, 9th, or 10th engineer and being on the founding team, you really want a strong engineer because that's your platform, that's your baby. You don't want anybody that, you know, it could potentially maybe cause problems, or they really want somebody there they can trust. And so it's hard, you know like I said -- CHAD: But they might not be able to afford that. [laughs] ANNA: Yes, they might either not be able to afford it, or they also cannot interview fast enough in order to just get the offer in their hands. Because I understand they really want to have them speak to the entire team and have them have an in-depth process because it's very much an important role. But these candidates and startups are moving so fast right now where I will speak to a candidate one day, and he or she or they'll probably say, "Oh, you know, I'm passively looking. I'm not really actively looking." And maybe a week and a half to two weeks later, they're like, "Oh, I actually have two offers in hand." So it goes really, really fast versus earlier stage; it can just go a little bit slower because they're just really taking the time to go more in-depth and see if this prospective candidate is the right fit, which is totally understandable. But it was just really hard for us as contingent trying to find that candidate, that perfect candidate for them as well as trying to keep candidates warm and keep them interested when some companies just have like mission. So now, in the future, I've just really, like I said, Techie Staffing, we specialize from Series B and above. And I really just make sure during business development exploratory chats that I'm really going in-depth and making sure I understand the roles that they're prioritizing their time to hire. So if they have a long, long interview process and a really, really low salary in terms of the competitive market, then I may not be as interested in that startup as opposed to another startup whose interview process timeline could be about a week and a half to two weeks. And it doesn't have to be absolutely amazingly competitive base salary but just a fairly competitive salary with a great timeline for time to hire. So that's been my way of just condensing or just being a little bit more pickier in terms of clients in the future. Were there any certain clients for you where you started working with them, and you were like, "Oh, maybe I shouldn't have," that's now caused you to be a little bit more pickier for clients in the future? CHAD: Part of it was the kind of work. So we really wanted to be writing software. But just starting out, I also had a background in sort of IT support. And so, when I was reaching out, particularly to past clients, they might say, "You built our website. Now can you help us with purchasing a computer or setting up a computer network in our office?" I felt compelled to say, "Yes," because I felt like we needed all the work we could get. But by doing that work that wasn't really what we wanted to be doing, we were not only less happy in our work, but it was taking time and attention away from the work that we really wanted to be doing. The other was values and practices, which took a little bit longer to form a real understanding of what our values were and the practices that we believe in. But now there's a pretty clear list of the kinds of companies that...what we say at thoughtbot is that we want to work on things that deserve to exist in the world. And so there's a whole bunch of industries that they might not even be actively doing harm in the world, but they are the ones that we wouldn't work in. But even if it's just not a positive contribution to the world, it's probably not going to be something that we're excited to work on. ANNA: That's been an exciting trend, actually, to speak with engineers about. I've started seeing that trend where engineers are saying, "I don't want to create anything evil," or "I just want to do good." And that's been a really awesome selling point for some teams. It definitely is a cherry on top where engineers are really looking for social impact. And the cool part is they have so many opportunities that are coming towards them that they can really pick and choose which one. So to find people who are really looking for social good and just really mission-driven products is amazing to see. And I'm really happy with the work...I'm actually working with a data science team for AI ethics. And that's been really interesting hearing some people talk about their projects and hearing about how data can really not only just strengthen bias but also can just really produce results that can harm certain groups of people, which is so interesting. And it can be something so, so small that I haven't even noticed at all, but that can lead to a big difference. CHAD: Yeah, we've had several episodes about that. ANNA: And it's amazing. And it really is just a huge difference with something so small. And as a woman of color, I'm always aware of what's going on in terms of just ethical practices or just fairness and seeing bias. But in terms of data, seeing something so so small can affect just a whole group of underrepresented people is just amazing to see. But it's also amazing that people or data scientists are now aware of it, and now they're changing it so that it no longer...at least they'll be able to alleviate that bias. CHAD: I want to ask a little bit more about that, and then I want to talk about some market trends. But if you're comfortable, I'm curious; you already mentioned you were just out of college when you were getting started. So there was skepticism around your lack of track record in recruiting. And you've mentioned that you are a woman of color. And so I think as engineers, as people in the market, we probably have this image in our head of what a typical recruiter looks like in terms of attitude, and values, and demographics. And you don't fit that mold in almost any way, basically. Is this actually a positive for you now, or is it actually still hard? Are there companies that are actively seeking out to work with you because they want that different approach? Or are you still facing that skepticism? ANNA: I'm still facing that skepticism. I actually created Techie Staffing around the time of summer 2020, where Black Lives Matter, where George Floyd happened. And it was really interesting because I was entering the corporate workplace. I went to a really wealthy private school in Los Angeles. And I went to the University of Virginia. So I survived two PWIs which means predominantly White institutions. So I thought I had not seen it all, but I thought I had maybe experienced those experiences of bias and understood it a little bit more. But when I went to the corporate workplace and the diversity inclusion campaigns were happening, it was just really confusing because it's hard specifically for engineering and product specifically because it's so new that there is a really, really hard time to find diverse talent. That's why I honestly believe that it's just really trying to educate underrepresented communities to understanding all of the different diverse types of roles and opportunities that you can encounter in the tech industry so, for example, like UX, UX design, UX research, data science, machine learning, all of that. So I think I was more contacted or maybe was engaged in business development companies who were looking for me to do diversity which I think it kind of...and I am such a huge proponent for diversity. But it also kind of had my heart drop a little bit because I just felt like people were contacting me because of who I am instead of just thinking like if it was just any other agency, would I be contacted specifically for that? It was more just for exclusive searches, which can be very, very hard for products and engineering. I think in diversity and inclusion, we really need to focus on different departments and the different problems that underrepresented communities encounter with different departments. So it was just really hard, but in terms of companies contacting me because I am a woman of color owning an agency, no, that didn't really...and it's never really helped. I do wear it as a badge of honor because, like I said, I started out with nothing. So to start out with nothing and have to fight through everything to sit at the table and create something is amazing. My background didn't really help me. It was really just me, just constantly contacting people. And I was prepared for this because, in my entrepreneurship minor, they said, "You're going to encounter a lot of nos," and so I did. I encountered so many nos, but eventually, I was able to turn those nos into yeses. So now that I turned some of those nos into yeses...and I'm still encountering nos, but I still keep going and still building and building. And now I do feel a sense of pride now two years later where it is like, wow, I really did have to fight through to make it, and that's where I hold just a huge sense of pride. But no, it was not my background that really...the only thing that my background was maybe appealing was thinking like, oh, okay, I think you can do diversity and inclusion, which I don't want to be profiled in that way. I just want to be a founder who happens to be a Black woman instead of a Black woman founder. And so, I don't want to be contacted to feel like my race is a part of it. And that was interesting in the corporate workplace, especially when I was trying to navigate different, you know, how to speak, how to build rapport, or how to navigate corporate workplace conversations. And that's very hard to do with diversity and inclusion because you're fighting with, like, that's racism and misogyny. That's something really deep-rooted, and that has been here for years and years. So it's a really heavy, heavy topic. And that's not some really, really heavy topic that you really want to bring or a lot of people don't really want to bring into the workplace. So that was just hard to encounter. But overall, I so, so support diversity and inclusion. And the cool part is because I have this awareness and I know that diverse teams are better teams, whenever I'm sourcing, or one of my recruiters is sourcing, I'm just making sure that they have that in the front of their mind, and they're just trying to diversify their candidate pipeline as much as possible. CHAD: Well, taking it from the candidate side of things, I, unfortunately, I'm of the belief that the hiring process is really ripe for extreme, subtle unconscious biases or conscious ones even to have an impact on the hiring process. So, how have you navigated that on the candidate side? I'm sure you don't want to say anything negative about any of your clients. It's not about, oh, this company is racist. But I think do you agree with the premise that the hiring process at a lot of companies is ripe for some bias to creep in? ANNA: Of course. I mean, all of the time. And the part that's so, I would say, scary about it is that bias is something that you feel. It's not really tangible. You can't really grab it. I mean, it can be in writing, and [laughs] there has been stuff in writing. But it's very much kind of yeah; it's non-tangible. So it's hard to really call it out specifically of like, hmm, this candidate I don't know why all of a sudden nice to haves become must-haves. Why is there a shift? Like I said, there are different problems with different departments, but there are also different problems in terms of leveling systems, so leadership roles versus individual contributor roles. There can be a little bit more, you know, maybe there's a little bit more openness on the IC side, but with leadership, it can get a little interesting sometimes. But the hard part is it's not really tangible. So I really have to give it to diversity like DEI specialists because to have to navigate those conversations and really articulate a non-tangible thing is so, so complicated. So there are tangible things you can do, like having a diverse panel. But what happens if the company doesn't even have the numbers for diversity to have that diverse panel in the first place? So it can get really complicated in terms of trying to navigate the bias within the interview process, and we do try to do our best there, just trying to provide on our side because that's all we can do. It's really up to the companies in terms of their interview processes and how they are going to change it or maintain some stages. But for us, we're just trying to just submit diverse talent and really just try to provide that white-glove service for them and hope that that bias doesn't seep in. But like I said, it's such a heavy topic. And like I said, with corporate workplace politics, it can be so fragile and really interesting. So it's just hard to really take that and understand where it comes from or being able to even verbalize it. So that's where it gets really interesting. And so, I do hope that in the future, interview processes are changed where there is able to be a diverse panel, or there is a way to really be able to understand that bias. Because like I said, it's very complicated. And we don't want to claim that any company is specifically racist, but it's just understanding bias and maybe why there's a difference for one candidate versus another candidate, which can be really interesting. CHAD: I think the first part is recognizing that everybody has biases, and it could be anything. It could be, well, what happens when you come across a resume of someone that went to the same school that you did? What happens to that resume, then? And does that subtly influence how you review that resume? It has nothing to do with their race or the color of their skin or anything. So those biases can creep in, and you need to decide as a company is this something that actually matters to success at the company? Is this something that we want to be using when we make hiring decisions about who gets that first interview or who continues on in the interview process? For us, we've decided it's not, so we have a completely anonymous screening process where we don't even show the names of schools. We don't show the names of the companies that you worked at previously. We only show the positions that you held at those companies because we've decided that whether you have a degree or not doesn't matter, and the companies that you worked at previously don't matter. It's what you were actually able to do with that experience. ANNA: Oh yeah. I think that's actually amazing. That's a really great way of doing it. I always just try to tell hiring managers also to just open that candidate pipeline as much as possible because the number one way to really understand someone isn't really through just a piece of paper. Yes, we want to make sure that the resume is at least a bit aligned. And they have, if it's an engineering role, for example, the right tech stack or maybe the right technologies or the right kind of projects that they've worked on. But other than that, you'll be so amazed what can happen when people just hop on a call with each other. You can really find just that hidden genius in people. So usually, when it comes to just diversity, it's like just hopping on a quick call with someone, anybody. Like you said, there are so many biases, but just being able to talk to them and see them as a human being can really just surprise you and surprise everybody. So really just, I always say just find that hidden genius through engaging with someone. CHAD: Yeah. So you've mentioned time to hire is a really important thing moving quickly in today's market when candidates have a lot of opportunity. What are some other ways, either trends or things that are happening in the market or things that you see changing? ANNA: Well, honey, I'm sure, as you know, there's been a huge amount of layoffs that have happened. Like, recently, about 17,000 workers were laid off from more than 70 tech startups globally in May, and that's been about a 350% jump from April. So I will say it's just due to inflation as well as just the slowing of demand. Startups right now are just really trying to just cut corners and just really trying to just hone in on their runway and their burn rate. CHAD: Are the candidates that are being laid off finding new work quickly? ANNA: I'm not sure because it depends on the departments. We're working with engineering mostly in product. So it's really funny because as we are tracking the layoffs, we will contact candidates to see if they're interested in another opportunity. Because fortunately, for our client list, we haven't had anyone have a massive amount of layoffs which has been...we're so happy about that, fortunately. But we've actually contacted engineers. And it's amazing how strong the engineering department is. It does not seem like they really are...that's not a department where there's like significant layoffs because they just have to uphold that platform. So yeah, so it still is in terms of engineering surprising with all these layoffs. It still is just very much competitive because even the people who have or the companies that have encountered a large amount of layoffs those engineers are still wanting to stay or don't...there are some that may feel the need to depart at a certain point. But for the most part, they are staying. But in terms of how quickly, I'm not entirely sure in terms of for people that are laid off how quickly they are being hired because this is also within early-stage startups or not early-stage; they also have Fortune 500s too. But yeah, I'm not sure about that part. But in terms of engineering specifically, the jobs are still just growing. The projected growth rate for software engineers is like 22%, and data scientists is 22%, as well as web developers is 13%. So fortunately for us, as an agency who primarily specializes in engineering, there hasn't been a huge difference. But like I said, specifically with engineering, that time to hire is still super important because these candidates are still encountering offers quickly. And it's just a way to be competitive because if you're just the first offer, you're the first offer in their face instead of, let's say, they have two offers from another company and you're like at the last offer. It's such a big difference there. CHAD: Are you seeing a lot of remote positions versus in-person positions? ANNA: Yes, remote is still going strong. I have seen that now there is a little bit of a trend of some startups or companies where you know because I research companies every day...I'll go on Crunchbase, Morning Brew, VentureBeat, TechCrunch, Built-In. I'll go on all of the websites, and I'm seeing who got a fresh new round of funding or who's highly growing, or any new products that companies are offering. CHAD: You're seeing some companies say that they're hiring hybrid or in person. ANNA: I am seeing that on startups and companies' career pages, once they've acquired a new round of funding or they're scaling, that on the job boards, you'll start seeing only the headquarters, so just San Francisco or just maybe Boston instead of remote. So it's been a little bit more of a quiet transition because I remember when bigger companies were announcing it like, oh, we're going to transition in the office in February of 2022 or December of 2021, then there would all of a sudden be a mass exodus of people who were seeking remote opportunities. But I do still feel that remote is still going strong, especially for high-growth startups, you know, yeah, still going strong. There is the option of hybrid. With these engineers that do have these choices, 100% remote is really becoming a great selling point. I mean, I don't even know if it's really a selling point but just standard now. CHAD: So that's what you're hearing from candidates. Candidates want that. ANNA: Definitely, candidates want. There's been plenty of candidates that we've interviewed where they've said in terms of their...because we'll ask them what would be their motivation for considering other opportunities and potentially leaving, and then they'll say, "X company is anticipating us to transition into the office, and I just don't want to do that." Their commute may be an hour, and that can be two even maybe three hours out of your day where you're spending your morning driving and then spending your evening driving. So people just prefer to be remote. Or people are located now in the Midwest. They're going back to their hometowns where they're able to instead of like these big metropolitan cities where now it's really hard to afford a house, so they're going back home and being able to enjoy their family there. So definitely it is a standard and people are really interested in it. And for companies that are having employees transition back into the office, we've consistently heard that there's just a mass exodus of people leaving. CHAD: What have you seen compensation do over the last year-plus? ANNA: I would say for compensation, I mean, in my personal opinion, when it was super competitive, it was definitely increasing. Now I feel like we're working with a Fortune 500 company, so compensation hasn't really been too, too much of a problem. So yeah, it hasn't been as competitive. But I do remember when it was maybe around Q1 and Q2 2021 where there was almost this great rehire. And everybody was scaling, and demand was soaring where the salaries were just like, it just increased or were just consistently increasing. We were just so shocked at what some software engineers were making. But now, it seems to have potentially tamed a little bit. It's not as high as it probably used to be because we were working with that series B Company and their salaries were pretty good, pretty competitive. But all of a sudden, with the demand soaring and these engineers, it started getting even more competitive. Then that's when all of a sudden, you know, the first few placements were fine. And then, all of a sudden, each candidate, like I said, they would say they were passively looking and then the next week... And this startup their time to hire was actually really great. But even with this competitive market, it was still hard because, like I said, a week later, they would already have an offer. And their salary would probably increase like 20,000-30,000 from their initial target base that they were seeking to now what they were being hired from other companies. So it would definitely increase. But I haven't seen that recently as much. CHAD: Yeah. I think also the trend to remote changed compensation, too, because it leveled it out. There were people who if you were trying to find a job in Kansas and you were going in an office, that market is very different than the U.S.-wide hiring market. But now, candidates are on the U.S.-wide hiring market. And I think that that brought up the lower end of salaries. ANNA: Oh yes. Because at first, it was like okay, we can look for...it was 100% remote, which was great, and so they were like, we can look for people in the Midwest. But during that time, companies were paying San Francisco and New York salaries, and they were offering those salaries to people who were located in Kansas and Iowa. So you would have engineers who were deep, deep in the Midwest who were asking for in terms of target for those metropolitan city salary budgets. And they would get it, which I think is great as well, just they are doing the same work as someone who is located in San Francisco or in New York but maybe with less overhead, of course. But it definitely was a little bit more of a challenge. And you can no longer assume that somebody located in the Midwest that may have lower salary bands aren't at those metropolitan city salary budgets now. CHAD: Anna, thanks much for stopping by and sharing with us. I really I'm impressed by what you've accomplished so far. And I'm excited about what you're going to be able to do in the future. ANNA: Thank you. Thank you so much, again, for inviting me. I had a great time speaking with you, and it was so interesting hearing about your time being a consultancy. Because I know being an external vendor, it's really interesting interacting with clients when you're not internal. So that was really interesting hearing about the difference of clients that you're encountering at first versus now. CHAD: Yeah. If folks want to get in touch with Techie Staffing or get in touch with you, where are the best places for them to do that? ANNA: So in terms of contacting me, I'll say the best way would be either our website so www.techiestaffing.com. Or you can contact me on LinkedIn; my name is Anna Spearman, A-N-N-A S-P-E-A-R-M-A-N. I'm always active on LinkedIn. So if you're seeking a new opportunity either on the candidate side or either meeting, help and engaging Techie Staffing as a scaling company to fill your engineering, design, UX, and product roles, you can contact me on LinkedIn as well as filling out the forms on the Techie Staffing website. And we also are on Twitter @StaffingTechie. So definitely contact us, and we'd be happy to hear from you. CHAD: Wonderful. You can subscribe to the show and find notes and a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter at @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks so much for listening, and see you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success. Special Guest: Anna Spearman.

INTRODUCTION: Anna, pronouns anything respectful, is a Chicago-born social entrepreneur who builds streaming platforms which center & celebrate BIPOC & QTPOC creatives. Media has always been her passion and in 2009 she turned that passion into a reality when she founded E3 Radio, an online radio station playing Queer music & reporting on Queer news with an intersectional lens. Most recently, she founded The Qube, a curated app of music & podcasts by BIPOC & QTPOC creatives. Anna is determined to ride media into its next era by utilizing digital media streams to tell the stories and play the music that deserves to be heard.  Learn more about her work here. In no particular order I'm also a daughter, wife, sister, and friend who loves cooking and running. Favorite Quote: “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.” –Gandhi Did you know? Anna has been in love with Robin Roberts all her life. Interviewing her would be the ultimate experience. Media Coverage ABC 7 Pride Coveragehttps://abc7.ws/3BGSAZz  Choose Your Struggle https://open.spotify.com/episode/5VaUCZRfUCxUNzdfmAibuV?si=Wqu7M0knQmWZYyJ_Ahmleg&nd=1 191: Learn How To Do Queer Radio Right with Anna DeShawn, Founder of E3 Radiohttps://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/191-learn-how-to-do-queer-radio-right-anna-deshawn/id1189319336?i=1000521261587  Trindi Media Podcasthttps://podcasts.bcast.fm/e/mn4wvyq8 Park Careers Podcasthttps://anchor.fm/icparkcareerspodcast/episodes/Episode-9--Anna-DeShawn-IC07-e10l4bp/a-a5haqne   INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      Exposure To The Qube App·      Celebration Of BIPOC & QTPOC Creatives·      Why It's Good To Be Complete BEFORE You Enter A Relationship·      Why Mental Health Therapy Is SOOO Damn Good For You·      The Variety Of Mental Health Options Available To You·       A Warning Against Being Addicted To Church·      A Warning About Biblical Interpretation·      Politics & Religion = YUCK!·      Why Being Non – Straight Is Not A Damn Choice! CONNECT WITH ANNA: Website & Radio: https://www.AnnaDeShawn.comTikTok: https://tiktok.com/@annadeshawn Facebook: https://facebook.com/annadeshawnInstagram: https://instagram.com/annadeshawn  Twitter: https://twitter.com/annadeshawn  E3 Radio: https://e3radio.fmThe Qube: https://theqube.app   ANNA'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      EyeWear: https://thekayakollection.com·      VDOM: https://thevdom.com/the-vdom/ CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonEmail: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: [00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: What's up. What's up. What's up everyone. I'm so happy to have you with me again. One more week. I hope everyone is fucking fantastic. Happy Cinco de Mayo. Today we have a spotlight on black indigenous people of color and queer trans people of color as well. Anna de Shawn has created the cube app, which is a safe space for creative people of color of various ideas.We dish on religion, sex [00:01:00] self-acceptance mental health and so much more. And I throw some shade at Lakewood church over in Houston, Texas, because of the way they dehumanize people behind the scenes. Take a listen to my people.Anna. Good girl, girl. How the fuck is you doing the day? That's what I need to know. Anna: I'm amazing that I'm here with you period. De'Vannon: Looking at you, trying to gain me up, see energy. Like that is the reason why sometimes contemplate letting a lesbian fuck me in the ass because y'all have got that. Yeah. The game was on point.The words on point y'all is I am a survivor. I'm like, oh, almost y'all I'm just like Emile come in there. And I'm like a good low to come in my ass. Okay. Anna: We don't get that. We don't got that. We got a lot of other things, but we got a lot of other. De'Vannon: Although they [00:02:00] have those buildings. Now you can put something like different juices or whatever in them, and then it'll squirt it into whatever hole you want.So Anna: mommy, my homemade is actually creating this really amazing strap. It's her, her business is called V Dom. Y'all should check it out. V D O M she was on television recently for a pitch competition. Like it's like mechanical, so it's not hard all the time. So you hit a button, it gets hard on the, on the whim.It's like from an app. So you don't gotta go. And like, yo it's legit stuff. It's good De'Vannon: stuff. So it's a Dick, a plastic Dick that get, that can give, go from levels of softness to hard, Anna: but the press of a button. De'Vannon: I ain't seen that before. Hmm. Next level I found real. It, it okay. Also Anna de Shawn is a bad bitch.She. It's the [00:03:00] greater of an app called the cube. She hosts the radio station and everything like that. And she considered herself to also be a social entrepreneur as an initial. We're going to be talking about what the cube is, how this benefits the LGBTQ plus community, the alphabet mafia, as I like to call us, because we will fuck a bitch up if we have to, we don't want to, but sometimes y'all just make us pull the will Smith on a bitch and just Anna: necessary.Okay. Sometimes it's necessary.De'Vannon: I don't think he should have done it, but I'm not here to judge him. I feel suck his Dick right now and buy tickets to his movie. But I, we, we, we will not be slapping everybody on Smith. Anna: I don't know what he was thinking. I think actually, I think he thought it was recorded. I think he forgot. It was like. I mean, there's so De'Vannon: many of them things, it's just like he's sitting at his [00:04:00] kitchen table.Anna: I think he forgot it was left. I think he thought they were going to be able to enter that up. De'Vannon: So we'll be talking about what the cube is. It's a new thing specific for our community and people of color and things like that to help help us with podcasts and getting our creative arts and media out there.And then we're going to talk about Anna's history. She has a lot of history with the church and church Bo shit, and there's so much bullshit and the church is unreal. And so what do you got to say about your own history? Tell us about you got the run Anna: down to the quick rundown, quick rundown south side of Chicago, born and raised.I consider myself a social entrepreneur who. Platforms digital platforms that celebrate and center black, brown and queer folks of color. I, I love my [00:05:00] people and I love the power that media has to actually create some change, some meaningful change to humanize people's stories and experiences. And I think that we have the power to shift that, you know, if we tap into it and since 2009, I've been interviewing black queer folks to raise awareness around our stories out of Chicago.And I've always been into media. Let's be clear, Robin Roberts is everything to me. Okay. I want it to grow up and be just like her on ESPN or doing some play by play announcing. But it became very clear that people don't look like me on television. They're not masculine the center. Prokes a report in the 10 o'clock news.Okay. But radio allowed for me to speak to folks without folks having to see me. And that is a very powerful thing. And I realized I really loved it. So I got into radio. Which of course leads you into podcasting. And then I just saw the same things that were happening in traditional media. What's happening in podcasts.I'm like, where are my black people at? Where am I brown people at? Where am I queer [00:06:00]folks of color at? Like, why is it that when I go to apple and Spotify and all these places, like I can't find my people and I wanted to change that. De'Vannon: Well, it is a noteworthy thing you're doing. And I can tell you have sense enough to understand that this is something that's takes time.You know, this is, this is a long-term dedicated process. Does it? Don't take, you know, a long, long time to, to see, come to fruition. Hopefully you see it in your generation, but you know, you know, these things take time. So I appreciate that. You're laying this foundation here, you know, for generations to come, you know, I can see it in a, in a hundred years, you know, you know, when you did that and gone somebody is going to have a very successful.Show you know, public broadcast and everything like that. You gonna be like, we want to thank him to Sean for the work that we did back in 2009 to make this day [00:07:00] possible for me in 3050 or whatever the Anna: case. That's unbelievable. Let me tell you. But I do say this, that I do see the radio station and what we're building with the cube as being far bigger than myself, I feel like, and I think we connect can connect on this on a spiritual level.Like we're here because we're called to do something. And when I think when you tap into your call, it is bigger than you because you're just a vessel for the work and you've been given some gifts and you, and you've been called to use them. And so I feel like I'm called to use these gifts in this way.Everything about me says I'm about systematic changes about changes that can affect masses amount of people. That's what I'm called to do. Some folks is called to be in the streets activating, you know, some folks has called to do one-on-one work and change people's lives one by one by one. And I feel like I've been called to change folks' lives through media and a massive amount of [00:08:00] ways.And so I'm excited about what the cube is going to be to the world of podcasting. I'm excited what it's going to be for discoverability. Today 43% of people listening to podcasts actually identify as people of color and there's no place that is serving those folks. And the discoverability of those folks.There's so many people like you creating amazing content, raw content, authentic content, quality content, and more people need to know, you know what I'm saying about sex drugs and Jesus. Come on. De'Vannon: Okay. We don't want to go down that rabbit hole is a tight, deep hole and trust me may have gotten stuck in it.Anna: I love you. De'Vannon: So I love you too, baby. So one of my favorite things about you. So we're going to talk about Anna for a little bit and get into her personal story, which tells us a lot about why she's doing what she's doing. And then we're going to get very granular and talk very specifically about what the cube [00:09:00] is, where you can find it.Who's who was this for a podcast. As people want to go on shows what sort of content you can find there and all of that. So when I was reading through your bio and everything like that, and researching you as I do, I found that your pronouns, you don't have like, he, she, they. You know, whatever you said, anything respectful.And I admire the open-mindedness of that and the flexibility of that, it reminds me a lot of myself because when people ask me who I am, sometimes I like to refer them to the Torah, you know, to the, to the oh, Hebrew scripture when when Moses was first called by God. And he had his slippers off on the side of the mountain and God was in the burning Bush.And Moses was like, God, who is you? Who are you? He was trying to put God in a box and figure out how shall I, what can, what can, how can I associate you with what I already know? Okay. And God told him, bitch, I am that I am. [00:10:00] And that's all there is to it. Anna: Yes. Is that a quote description? That is, I am what I am and that's really it.Right. Because the point of even. The initiatives around using someone's proper pronouns is about respect. It is about honoring someone's identity, right? And for me, depending on what space I'm in child, ain't no telling what the pronouns is going to be. If I, with my boys, it's just, it is whatever. Right.And then I'm in society and people see me a certain way. And then that's that all I'm saying is with respect to who I am. So anything respectful is what resonates most with me, De'Vannon: right? Because it's in the tone of voice in the spirit behind the words. So you can be like, what a bitch and mean it would love.And you can be like, oh, Hey girl, Amina, what all the painting is and violent as that you could contrive. And when you hate that bitch, and you're like, Hey girl, you [00:11:00] know, that was not really in the word, but isn't the heart behind it. More than anything.Anna: Absolutely cause the shade is real. You can notice the shade.Okay. De'Vannon: At all. Oops. Plaque.Anna: You don't have it, but I see it. Okay. Y'all got it. But I see it. De'Vannon: I keep one in my glove compartment, just in my car, just in case I needed somewhere. And I got several in the house. Anna: So does my wife, Lord, all the De'Vannon: things, speaking of that. Yeah. And your bio, it says you are a daughter, a wife, a sister, and a friend who loves cooking and running.What I wanted to know from you about the wife. How did it feel? I want to know how did it feel to be married? Did you have any struggles and things like that? I don't meet a whole lot of married women. I don't. So talk to me about that whole process. Anna: Yeah, we just celebrated our five-year wedding [00:12:00] anniversary.We've been together for nine years. Just like when I met her, my momma loved there. Okay. And I don't like the ideas of, or the statements around, like someone completes me. I was done and completed, but she just adds so much to my life. She's just such a sweet and kind person. And she just fit right in with my family.It was like she had always been there. Everybody embraced her and, and I love her. So she's my best friend. She is the ultimate diva. Okay. She is the most high film woman I have ever dated in my life. But she balances me out and I just love her to pieces. De'Vannon: Yeah. Opposites attract like that. I learned that when I was in my hitting the therapy class, I was training to be a licensed hypnotist, which I am, you know, there's all kinds of signs [00:13:00]behind why quiet, conservative people attract more outgoing people, you know, and vice versa.If you too much alike, you tend to repel each other, you know, to put it simply my boyfriend's the same way. He's quiet. Fucking there. Okay in there, I'm the ones linking from the poles and the chandelier's and hitting the splits. And even now with all of that, you know, showing up, you know, shutting the shit down and everything, and he couldn't even talk.He would, he's not necessarily the most comfortable talking to people in public. You know, when I walk in the bitch, I own the room. Oh, his y'all's belongs to me until I leave this bitch. Anna: Okay. And let me tell you, so I turn it on when a microphone is in front of me, but other than that, I don't have to say a word to anybody.Okay. Yes, my wife is the same way. She walked into a room, she's a stylist. She just takes up space. Okay. Take some space. You came misled. And she also sells, I wear all right. [00:14:00] So the Kia collection.com. So she sells customer. I wear. And so every time she walked into a room, somebody taken something off her face off her risk, won't something.And she is, she's the life of a party.Oh, yeah. The K a collection.com. K a K a Y a K O L L E C T I O N. So the K a collection.com. De'Vannon: Okay. So then I'm like, Hey, yo, collection.com. All right. I'll drop that shit in the show notes, but show ya. I also heard what you said about how you were complete before you met her. This is something I concur with.None of this. This person completes me. I'm lost without you. I can't. Oh that you better know who you are before you get into a relationship with somebody. And a lot of that has to do with just theory, spirituality and shit like that. I think so many relationships in between. People lose [00:15:00] sight of their own individual identity in the whole process.And if you're not in tune with who you are, you're not going to be able to truly cater to that other person. You know, you gotta be whole firstAnna: a hundred percent and let's also be clear. We all been broken, right? So I ain't coming up here. Like I walked, I woke up like this therapy saved my life. Right.Therapy saved my life. We've all had tough and challenging relationships that have taken you all types of places that you never thought you would go. Then at some point you have to like, do some self reflection. Like, is it me? Maybe it's me. And you got to own that. You have to own that. Otherwise you'll continue to date the same person over and over again in a different body with a different sign and all types of stuff.And that was my reality. I had realized that I was dating the same person over and over again. I'm like, what is wrong? And so quickly checked myself into therapy and it saved my life. And so when my wife came into my [00:16:00] life, I didn't need completing. At that point, I was very clear about who I was and who I am.And she was just like the perfect fit into, into my life. So now we have our life with our puppy and grateful. De'Vannon: So when you say you checked yourself into therapy, are you being general in that saying you started seeing a therapist, did you check into a residential. Anna: I'll say it in general. Like I went to start, I started seeing a therapist and I've seen a few over my life and actually it's just about to start seeing a new one.And I think there'll be, is one of these things where you can choose to be in it for a really long time with the same person, but sometimes you even grow out of your therapist. And so sometimes you have to shift and sometimes you don't need it anymore and sometimes you gotta restart it because life would be doing a lot of living.And we just went through what, two years of an airborne panic. And if you listen into this, that means you survived it too. And [00:17:00] so none of us are the same as we were in 2019. There's no way you're the same person. So I think that there's there's seasons. And so I'm in a season where I got a lot going on.So I'm about to go see another therapist and it's just, if you've never done it, it's just a refreshing opportunity to talk to someone who is not fully engaged in your life, but can offer an outside an outside viewpoint that is often not, it's not critical, it's not judging. Right. You find somebody that works with you that you can vibe with, and you'll find yourself lighter after leaving.They're clearer, maybe about something you're struggling with. And for me, it was, it saved my life. De'Vannon: What kind of therapist? A licensed clinical social worker, a Anna: licensed clinical social worker and a black woman. De'Vannon: I find the LCSW to be [00:18:00] more like down to earth, then send like a psychologist, cause an LCSW is not prescribing medication.So they're actually the only way they can help you is through the words and the talking and the exercises and the practices. They, they, they give you to take home. I see an LCSW. I see a licensed marriage and family therapist together with my boyfriend together for, I don't know, 2, 3, 4 years, some shit I don't keep up with the damn time.You have to ask him I'm bad with birthdays and just general time, because I, I view things more eternal. You know, I don't believe in time constraints. It always has existed and always will in a way. And so And then I see my hypnotherapists individually and I love hypnotherapy because of how focused it is and how it gets into the subconscious and how you rip out what you don't want.You speak back to your open, vulnerable mind, which you do want. And so I particularly use that to help me stay off of [00:19:00] drugs. And so all. So that is our plug for mental health, because we know that it's something that's lacking in both the color community and in the gay community. It is not a straight a strike to your pride.If you want to go talk to somebody about getting help, there's many different types of therapists. That's why I asked her that if you go to one therapist and they're a fucking piece of shit, then fuck that hell you go to somebody else. Maybe you need a different type of therapy. There's all sorts of new age, metaphysical shit out there, getting the therapy Stella constellations all kinds of mind, body, soul meditation, shit.If you don't want to do traditional therapist, you can therapy. You can do the shit off his own. Now there's all kinds of shit. So whatever it is you think mental health is if you have a bad taste in your mouth about it I asked you to revisit it and take a second look at it. Because again, I said, we all had been fucked.You know, and so you need help to get unfucked up and to get an objective perspective. So you [00:20:00] don't keep getting fucked up relationships and sabotaging yourself. So just humble yourself down and go get some help, baby. And look, no one has to know, these therapists are bound by confidentiality, so it's not like they can go put it on social media that you were in treatment, or they would get their license taken and probably go to jail.So it's a secret, nobody. Nobody nobody has to Anna: know that's right. And may is mental health awareness month. So there is so much information out here right now in promoting and making awareness, you know, mental health awareness, I think this month. So you just one Google search. De'Vannon: Just one Google search away.So a quote that you had it says is your favorite pro. You said at first they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you, then you win. And that was by Gandhi. Tell me what this quote means to you.[00:21:00]Anna: And that you can't be waiting for people to validate who you are or validate your idea or validate what you call to do. It is not about that. You know, people gonna go along for the ride, you have to be clear about what you want to do. And I think that along the way, you're going to encounter different people.You know, I'm building a business. I don't come from a whole lot. I come from a whole lot of love. And so, but we got a lot of things and a lot of people, I talked to a lot of asks and the requests, I take a lot of leaps of faith. I have to keep practicing my faith muscle and building up my face muscle and what it means to take risks.And along the way, I'm going to run into people that don't agree with me, who don't believe what I'm in, what I'm doing, who don't see a market for it, who don't see a need for it. And honestly, like when we make it, that's when everybody want to be down. So for me, that quote by Gandhi just resonates a lot with what it means to be on the journey.And not, and for me, it's [00:22:00] not caring so much about the destination because to your point, like, I feel like things just will continue to be, but it's about enjoying the journey. And that quote reminds me that it's a journey that is not just going to be one thing or another thing. It's all of things, De'Vannon: all of them each and every last one of them.I love the friction that comes along. When w when people would try to repel us, though, I believe it helps to meet tourists. And it helps to refine us like when a moth or a butterfly. It's trying to crawl a lot of that Chrysalis after they'd been a caterpillar, you know, that struggle helps to release the, you know, the blood flow in whatever juices are in their little furry bodies to expand their wings.You know, that that struggle is needed. They can not become what they are to be without the problems. And, you know, and so I'm thankful for all the Karens for all the church, people who told us we had to get out, you know, and, and everything like that. For [00:23:00] the people who told us since we were black, we can't, we can't stay there.And stuff like that. When I read that, I thought about how I got kicked out of Lakewood church in Houston, Texas for not being straight, you know, but eventually I'm going to get the victory over them. Cause you know, I've been there when they kicked me out. This was like 2008, 2009. And I just finished my book and I went into great detail about how I felt about all of that.It took me over 10 years, but I finally clapped. I finally clapped the back. And so I will win. Yes, Anna: you are winning. You are winning. You've already won. The victory is yours. You're already, De'Vannon: they may in an amen. Okay. So then I'm just curious about, what do you think some of the top issues are facing just the lesbian community today?Hmm. [00:24:00] And why are you thinking about that? I noticed some of your top lives being moments when I was researching you. I would agree with queen Latifa from set it off. Anna: Yes, honey. That is number one of all time. You know what? I would argue anybody down and say that ain't the number one black lesbian moment in film, because.She was studied out in and go, okay, let dances. It was everything. Okay. It's a freaking classic acquaint. Lindsey foot is number one and she ain't even have to be out she out now, but she ain't going to have to be out. She is out to us anyway. So that was actually a really fun video to do. And I'll probably do another one because so many people rode in some of their favorite black lesbian moments that I had not even thought about again, or that people didn't tell me about because I asked my friends.So for example Lena commented, Lena [00:25:00] wave comments. And then she was like, what about when Tasha was on, came out on the L word? And I was like, dang, that was a pivotal moment because L where had been so white up until that point and it Tasha show up and just wreck the crew. And I was just like, Hey you.Right. So I'll probably do another video. But I think, I think for lesbians, some of the major challenges is still representation. And I think there is a lot of invisibility happening with lesbians. So there's a, there's a podcast called cruising, which on this podcast and but there's a podcast called cruising and they have like three lesbians going across the country and they are going to all of the last lesbian bars.And so there's 60,000 bars across the country and there's only 25 lesbian bars, 25 lesbian owned bars across the whole country. And so they did a whole podcast traveling around the country and visiting these bars. [00:26:00] So I think that there is a great need for visibility of lesbians. Not only in media, but just in life in general, you know?And I think lesbians often can kind of get lost in the south. So similar to how people feel like there's some invincibility with, by bisexuals in the community right now, I think, you know, a lot of trans folks get a lot of press because there is a political onslaught happening from right wing conservatives politically.And it doesn't mention, you know, gay folks or lesbian folks or bisexual folks it's specifically mentioned trans folks, you know, and I think that there's some, there's a definitely a sector of lesbians who feel like they have been left behind often also because we use the word queer these days and no one really uses the word lesbian.So I know that there's some lesbians out there that just feel like they've been left [00:27:00]somewhere in the eighties and. I think it's a, I think it's a challenge for them in that respect with all that being said, if one of our alphabet mafia is as you put it, okay, it's being attacked. Then we all being attacked.If we all don't have freedom, then none of us have freedom. So I think that some of what I hear as lesbian concerns, you know, aren't really concerns at all. I think it is fear. And I think that when our trans fam is experiencing right now, what they are experiencing right now affects every single last one of us.De'Vannon: So when you say someone says there's a lesbian concern and it's not really a concern, it sounds like you're speaking about hate and ignorance. Anna: Well, it might be a problem for them. It's not a problem for me. I think [00:28:00] that. I think it's just people being who they are.And I think that there, I think that people evolve and I think that terms evolve. And so I think there are people who are lesbians, who identify with a very strict definition of what it means to be a lesbian. I think there's people who identify with the very strict definition of what it means to be, get men who love men and women who love women.Like these are various particular definitions like that is it. And that is all right. That we're coming upon a time. I felt like we were living in a time where there is sexual fluidity and so forth, and I can speak for myself and I statements are so helpful in these moments. It's like I came out as a lesbian, but at the end of the day today, I identify as queer because child, I love a lot of things.Okay. And it's not just, it's not just women or assists women. Okay. It's just not. And so I needed an expansive word. I needed an expansive definition outside of [00:29:00] lesbian to identify with. So I think that I think oftentimes people get. And what they always known or anything like or stuff like that.But at the end of the day, things evolve, people evolve terms, evolve, communities evolve. And I also think that if there is one major issue affecting lesbians today, it is just continues to be a lack of representation and visibility, especially for masculine scent and lesbians. I mean, fam lesbians, they, their level of Ms.Visibility is a whole nother story, right? I've I've had films. Tell me, like, I intentionally date, you know, masculine of center women. So people know that I am a lesbian. I don't want you to think I'm straight, you know? And for masculine of center women, there is a, there is an appearance that out you, when you walk out the house.So you know, [00:30:00] visibility on a grander scale is still not there, even though there's a different level of acceptance. I believe four lesbians than there are even for gay men. I think gay men have a whole other struggle that around masculinity, especially in this country, that it's just really different than the lesbian experience.I've talked about. A friend I grew up with a gay guy who was very flamboyant, right? We was cool. He had to come to school with a knife right in his shoe. He never left home without a knife. And underneath the sole of his shoe, that was not my story. I never felt unsafe. He always felt unsafe. And I think at the core of it, I mean, there's so much to be said around the differences between a male identified experience and a woman identified experience within the LGBTQ community.De'Vannon: Let's talk about these experiences in the church. So in researching you, there is some Lutheran Baptist. History [00:31:00] here. Talk to us about how you grew up in cherish. Anna: Ah, man, my mama and my daddy met at church. So my dad has been a teacher for 40 years and he was teaching at teaching at a private Lutheran school where my mom had enrolled my sister.So my sister is 17 years older than me. And so my mom rolled my sister there and then they started a love affair in which they had to keep on, on the low, because the teachers weren't supposed to be thanking the parents, the parents were supposed to be dating the teacher's child, but in a way,and let me tell you, 40 years later, they still at the same church. Okay. So. They landed at a black Lutheran church on the south side of Chicago. And so that's where I grew up, but my dad's side of the family started a missionary Baptist church also on the south side of Chicago. So I would often have two Easter speeches.Okay. I, we would often end up going to two different churches on Sundays. Cause my family was at that church, [00:32:00] my uncles, my aunts, my grandma. I mean, everybody was that Christian Love missionary Baptist church. Right. And so we would, you know, time's always different to, with black church. So Lutherans start at a bright and early 10:00 AM.Okay. And we was done in 60 minutes, strong, maybe 75 on communion. Sunday Baptist church was just getting started about 11 and praise and worship. 30 minutes. And so by the time we get that, we still at the beginning of the service, so it would a lot more shouting to go. So it was definitely two very different religious experiences growing up too, which I think just kinda tells a lot about my life in general.The dichotomies. I'll be one place at one moment and be in total different place in the moment. Another moment, you know, I could be at some highfalutin place one moment, and then I could be in the projects the next moment. All of it [00:33:00] made sense to me for where I was in my life. But church church was a good time.De'Vannon: So you're a preacher's kid. You, you, you say that would explain why you are freaking, you call yourself queer into all things. You have them PKS. I'm pretty freaky deaky. Anna: We get into some things, we get into some things and they'll see it. My dad. So he's a deacon, but at the end of the day, he could preach anywhere and he does preach all the time.And. He just for Lutherans, you got a lot of rules, regulations. And so he never went back to get that final piece, but he has his master's in divinity and all this stuff. So, yeah. Child, Sundays, Wednesdays, Saturdays, and church. De'Vannon: Yeah, that's awesome. That's how I was growing up. Pentecostal Wednesday, you know, Bible ban this night, delivering service this night and the other service [00:34:00] that night when I was at Lakewood, I was there four nights a week, choir practice, Tuesday night, Wednesday night, kids worship leading and teaching Saturday night kids, life choir, Sunday choir.I think, I think we get like addicted to church before we realized we are Anna: Church is a big part, right? If you grew up in the church, it's a big part of your identity. It's your community, it's your family and my home church where my parents still go is home. They have always loved me, always embracing me.I've never been anything that I'm not there, but I have my own thoughts around religion and religious organization. So joining the Missouri Senate is not an option for me because they don't see me as a whole person. So for me, it goes beyond the church. It's about the religious organization, right. [00:35:00] But it defined so much.And that's why when queer folks get rejected from church, It is incredibly impactful and can really damage and cause harm because the first couple of places you learn how to love is at home and at church. And that's often times the two places you spend the most time. And so when one, or both turn their back on you as a human being, you are not the same person you were before.It can, it, it leads you down a path that it, it destroys you period. Point blank. It destroys you, you know, and a lot of my work over the years has been around dismantling that and telling the truth about it. That Jesus never said one thing about gay people, not one, Jesus never said it. Now. I just, these clapper scriptures and everything else, I mean, The Bible is meant to be interpreted.It's meant to be [00:36:00] understood. It's meant to be put into context and the way folks have picked and chosen what they want to and who they want to damn to Hale is, is the most unlocked ungodlike thing they can absolutely ever do. And back in the day, I did this project with this organization called church, was in a church where we did a video 30 day release them to do video every 30 days called my God is not a bully to just emphasize that point that God is not bullying anybody.It's the people in the pulpit that are, and their lack of interpretation of scripture and in context of strip scripture. So The church means a lot to me actually is part of the Q we are releasing our own content as part of the queue and to, and one of our podcasts first podcast is called second Sunday.And I cannot wait for y'all to hear this podcast [00:37:00] because it's talking about the intersections of being black queer and in the church. And we had the opportunity to interview a lot of black queer theologians, lay people musicians for this podcast and the things that they share a child, it's just, it humanizes an experience that gets polarized a lot.And I hope I hope folks can get seen through this work. De'Vannon: Yeah. I was at a graduate at the Houston graduate school of theology and he of course, Euston, Texas, but I was going to get a master's of divinity as well. When you said that it, it popped out my ears, but I, I left that bitch. I broke up, I broke up and that bitch, when the, when the law professor said that, that they like to control people in church.And so that was like, well, I didn't come here to dominate motherfuckers, so I'll be going now. And so let me get more, I want to get more granular [00:38:00] with your per perspective. Cause I watched that video. One of the, one of the God is not a bully and I agree with what you're saying and it's at the epicenter of my message to people.I preach spiritual independence and people getting close to God on their own without a church or with one. But if you're going to have a church, remember that it's second to God. And so You bring up. Okay. So you're talking about like how the people are using the scripture to throw shade at people who are unlike them.It, how. Scriptural interpretation is very subjective and it is, everybody can read the Bible and come out of it with what they want. It's clearly not an easy to understand book because if it was simple to interpret, then you wouldn't need a thousand different translations of it. And so, I mean, And so since people are indoctrinated in such a young age, you know, at churches, you, you understand you go there to learn, but critical thinking about what the preacher is saying is not what's taught to you.And [00:39:00] so you're accepting whatever is being said. And by the time you're old enough to know any difference, you've got all of these issues to sort out, and then you feel conflicted about it because you've been told never to disagree with a preacher or a church, but now you like the shit don't make sense though.And so, so we add an out here to tell you that you will not burn up and go to hell for not being straight and to all the straight people. And I mean that loosely, because you never know what the hell people not doing behind closed doors. I didn't fuck so many straight married men and my day is unreal.And so you know, just, just know that while they're trying to use these scriptures over here to condemn you to hell since they want to be so strict about that. The, the Bible and everything. You know, the Bible speaks against getting divorced for any reason, other than infidelity. It speaks against interracial couples and stuff like that, stuff that we're all totally cool with.Now, them people in church got 50,000 divorces. [00:40:00] It all kinds of reasons and all kinds of mixed, mixed racial shit's going on. And I'm cool with all of it. But my whole point is this. If you're going to be such a hard ass about one part, you need to be a hard ass about the whole fucking thing. I don't want to see you eating nothing that divided the hoof.I don't want you getting down with the pig or nothing like that. If you going to be that much of a, of a bitch about it, then follow the whole fucking thing from end to end and not just a P a few slices of. Anna: And that's what they do, right? Those Christians like them, so-called Christians cause they not Christian some so called Christians.You know, they use, they use it for whatever they feel like they want to use it for. And they cause a lot of freaking harm and they're causing harm right now. And now it's entered the political round, you know? And we need more folks like you, we need more projects. I tell queer folks and LGBTQ young people that you'll still love that God still loves you.That your relationship with God is far more important [00:41:00] than whatever this preacher is saying from a pulpit. I also think critical thought is so incredibly important when you understand that there are books missing from the Bible, right? When you understand that, that what you're reading is not the entire Canon, like what are we doing here?People, what are we doing here? And also think it's easy to make God this very angry damning person and being. That was not what God taught at all. That's not what God taught at all. De'Vannon: He's not, he's a God of mercy and grace forgiveness, long suffering, slow to anger, quick, the mercy, quick, the compassion.That's what the scripture say. He's not like man, you know, quick to judge and clobber you and what you speak of about getting kicked out from churches and how it changes you. It's it's, it's what I call being dehumanized. It makes you feel like you're less than a person. And when a church tells you, you have to go.Not because of [00:42:00] something you've done with church has never supposed to tell anyone to go, no matter what, you know, Jesus accepted murderers and everybody. So for a terrace would be like, you can't go because of who you love, which is what Lakewood church did to me. You know, you can't. There, you know, you, that, that, that, that sent me on a downward spiral that ultimately led me into drugs and to drug dealing and to getting hepatitis B and HIV, my choice to do what I do, do what I did, but they certainly would've sparked the set that shit in motion and fuck them.Fuck you wake with church in on repeat, if we can dub stuff, that shit, then the video you also said. You, you made a comparison about how, okay. Say like procreation, one of the arguments people use against the non straight community is that God hates what you're doing because when you have sex, you can't, and there's no kid that's gonna come of it.[00:43:00]And then you were like, okay, well they're straight couples that God has prevented them from having children's. It was that because he hates them too. You know, it's not a, you can't apply that sort of a rubric evenly. You can't do it. And then you were also saying, you said something very interesting to me.You said that you wouldn't choose another burden and you were like, I'm already blessed. That's hard enough as it is. Do I really want. Add queer to it and all the problems that come along in this life, in that statement, you're rebutting the stupid shit. Like I heard Joyce Meyer and whoever the fuck else say that, where they think it's a choice, you know, like, like we just, oh, well we'll think we'll be gay today, you know, or some or some stupid shit like that as that is the most overly simplistic, dumb ass shit.These supposedly educated people Anna: say 100%. And I think that that's at the core of it. And I was talking to somebody recently whose child just came out to [00:44:00] them a year or so ago. And I was just like, you know, We have to start the conversation at choice with choice, because if you believe what I'm doing is a choice, then we're not going to get very far because at the heart of homophobia, is this idea that you can change.Hence why conversion therapy, right. Has been such a popular way for Christians to change people because you don't think it's a choice because you think it's a choice. But in fact, it's not. In fact, I grew up when my mama put me in bowls and matching ruffle socks. Okay. And doing everything in her power to make, to, to raise a feminine girl.And in fact, I was who I was from the moment I had any say over it. It's just not who I was. And I was very clear about that from a very young age. I was very clear that I was [00:45:00] athletic. Does that make me gay? No, but I was also very clear. I liked wearing my dad's shirts and my dad and I had the same initials and he gets his shirts embroidered with his initials on them.And I wanted to wear his shirts. I was not going to wear my mother's dresses. I didn't want nothing to do with heels. I didn't want to do a pantyhose. It's just, it just wasn't who I was and it's not who I am. And so I think all of these conversations around homophobia and transphobia and hate come around, the idea that who we are is a choice and who we are is not a choice in the same ways who they are, you know innately is not a choice.De'Vannon: That do be facts though, because if there was, they're going to apply that logic, the us, and it has to go in reverse. And I like you when I was two, three years old, I was already playing with Kendall. I was trying to see what was up under his shorts and shit like that. So, but if, but if there's a choice, then when did they kick to be straight?And [00:46:00] then if that's the case, are they confessing that they had homosexual desire at some point, you know, the way they tell it, they'd been straight from the beginning. So if that's the case, you know, it's uneven, but it's like anything else from your favorite food to your favorite color? Life is a thing of discovery.We do not get to put ourselves together like a doll or a made out of Play-Doh. You don't get to go. My favorite color is going to be green. My favorite dish is going to be lobster. My favorite state, I think I'll go with Kentucky. My favorite shoes, I think van sounds nice. You know, you, you get exposed to shit and then you pay attention to what keeps standing out to you.And what keeps drawing you in and then you go, oh, it seems like I'm into the color green or, oh, I think I really, really liked these fucking vans. They represent me. Well, you discover who you are, the beginnings of who you are, is shaped. And when you're in your mother's womb everywhere, she goes, the things she says, the people she talks to, the thing she thinks read, exposes [00:47:00] that child to everything, you cannot separate the two.So you're predisposed to so much before you're even born. So for them fuckers to be like, well, you chose to be gay. I goes again, signs and all logic. And they're just stupid as hell. Anna: Pretty much, pretty much. And what's really unfortunate is, is that I, I see that there can be a differentiation. So let me give you an example.Like you can believe that being queer is wrong, right? You can believe. But that should not equate to me not having the rights as a citizen, within a country that I pay taxes in, if that makes sense. So for me, politics shapes society. So you can think being gay is wrong, but that doesn't mean you have the right to limit my rights, [00:48:00] to control who I love control.If I can get married control, if I can get medical care control with books, I read you not have that type of control in my life. Just because you don't agree with who I am. I don't agree with you being a white, racist, homophobic transphobic person. Right. Right. But I ain't trying to write legislation to kill off your human existence.Right. Because that is exactly the fact of the matter is that what's happening across the country right now is killing. Trans youth, the numbers the suicide hotlines, like the Trevor project, they are outrageous right now, right? People are trying to leave states where they have had homes and families and a legacy because their children can't get the medical care they need.Because now politicians are saying that parents don't know what's best for their own children. How dare you? Just because you don't believe in who I am. [00:49:00] And I think it's just so incredibly contradictory because they don't want anyone telling them who they are or what they should be doing. You know,De'Vannon: if it's any consolation, these people are the hypocrites of our day. You had them in Jesus's time. I agree with what you said earlier, how the Bible is not complete. Some people will say everything you need to know about life it's in the Bible. That's bullshit. It's a general. It's a general guide to help get you close enough to God.So you can talk to him for yourself and then he can fix you and instruct you the rest of the way. But everything is not in there, but these, these Republicans and evangelicals and everything, these are today's hypocrites. Every generation has to have them. There's not going to come a time in this earth until probably the millennial kingdom when Jesus Christ reigns here again, but even, well, I'm not going to say that because even then there's going to be people who don't believe in him in the earth.And so there's always going to be those people who are contradictory, these people [00:50:00] are like how solid the apostle is before you became Paul. The thing is if God doesn't open somebody's eyes to their hypocrisy, then they won't see if you don't up in their ears to hear truth. They won't hear, they won't believe and be converted.Every generation has to have the people who are going to be citizens of hell bound to go to hell. Because if they have humility and love in their heart, they would go to heaven and they would be rugged. You people not going to accidentally end up in hell, you have to be like Pharaoh or somebody and just hardheaded ignoring the signs, not hearing what the people under you are trying to say, not hearing the voice of the people.That's how far was he just would not hear logic and reason because he was so set in his ways and what he wanted to want other people to do. Now, Paul Saul took his ass to the Sanhedrin saying Hedron was a religious council of the day. I think it's like 70 something. My fathers who control shit. It's no [00:51:00] different than legislation.The day, a whole group of motherfuckers who control. You say, I look this Jesus person and come here with his bullshit and these people trying to act like him and we can't be having none of this. So give me some power, some letters and shit. So then go arrest. They asses and beat them and fuck with them and shit beat this Jesus out of the acids.Cause this ain't right. It's on rip up our moral fabric. And this is going to tear our society down because of how they believe. And the Sanhedrin was like, go on, play a gong. Now his way to Damascus Jesus intercepted his bitch ass. And it was like, ah, ah, ah, ah, what you doing? You need to stop this shit because I did not send you scripturally speaking.He said, Saul saw, why, why are you persecuting me? It's hard for you to kick against the pricks. And so what do we have here? Somebody who said those people over there, I don't like what they doing. So let me in and enact laws to change them. And the Lord said, I don't want [00:52:00] you to do that. That, that is the what the whole beginning of that, that part of the book of acts is about Jesus Christ.Being against using the law to co Eris people to behave differently. It was right there yet. When those people, the people of our day, the hypocrites, the Republicans, evangelicals, if they even read they dusty ass Bibles, I don't see how they can. And when they read the Bible, they, they read it to find not what's wrong with other people.They are right there. But when they killed Steve and I'm going to say this and shut the hell up, but this is a hot button for both of us when they killed even the one who said to me, the first martyr, he read the religious people for Phil, and he told them, you motherfuckers are the same people who kill the prophets and everything like that.While you sitting up here trying to judge me that he, it was a whole long chapter in acts. And then they stoned him to death and everything like that. So these things must be so, Anna: and I think so, [00:53:00] Chad, you just said so much, there's so much to say. I think, I think at the heart of it also is that the theology, like your own spiritual connection to God is, can be so expansive.So the, to your point, right, the Bible is one thing. But then, right. Christians will tell you that all these, you shouldn't even explore these other religions. They can't give you nothing. Like, no, you can't get nothing out of nothing out of these, none of these other spaces. And I think to myself, like I thought God created everything.I thought God created everything. And if God created everything and God is in everything. And and I find myself having a very expansive worldview about God and my beliefs, like, so. Growing up. You're taught that if someone commits suicide, they go into hell. [00:54:00] And then now I was thinking, and then as I grew up, I was like, why would God send anybody to hell for committing suicide?And where does it say that in the Bible? And it doesn't right. We're just fed these. We fed these things out of fear to control you to not commit suicide, but who in the world told you that? When I think about the, the, the, the preachers and spiritual teachings that like folks around the world, anyone who doesn't call Jesus by name as their Lord and savior is going to go to hell, how is that possible?When there's people in the other countries, in the world who don't even know who Jesus is. So you're telling me that this God of love is going to send somebody who had an opportunity to get to know who, who Jesus was. That doesn't make any sense to me. And I think that. When for me, because of my sexual identity, it caused me to have to question a whole hell of a lot of stuff.Definitions of [00:55:00] what heaven heaven is, definitions of what hail is, definitions of who's going, and who's not, you begin to question all of it. And for me, when it boils down, I love it. When my mom says this to people about me. When she would tell me this all the time, she'd be like, have you read your 10 commandments recently?I don't see nothing in there about God, about gay people, you know? But I see a whole lot of other stuff that applies to you. Hello. So my mom, you know, she got to the point where she was empowered enough to, you know, stand up and say something and speak out about that. And I think that we need more people to do just that.Cause they ain't gonna say it to me. They gonna say it to their friend who they think agreed with them, you know? So. I just think we have a long way to go to the, understand what it means to, to embody and to embody a godlike existence, because it has so much [00:56:00] more to do with love and choice than anything else.De'Vannon: I was like you a very well said girl. I was like you very confused and conflicted about myself because of what the church said. They only gave me peace with learning, how to read the scripture for myself. I went back to the original Greek Hebrew and Aramaic the original, the Bible and discovered it for myself, what I want people to do, because any translation you read king James, a message or whatever, the living Bible, those are all other people's translations.That's not the actual original language. Instead, if you want the true truth, then you got to go back to the source. You got to go back to the original languages of the net and you get. Somebody else's version Anna: that end. You have to I think you gotta find your own practice. So you have to find what that practice looks like for you.Especially when you feel disconnected from church, because church was a practice Sunday, Saturday, Wednesday, however many times a [00:57:00] week, that was a practice. So as if you feel yourself pulling away from that, that you have to figure out what your practice look like. And so today, like my practice looks like me being in my prayer corner in the mornings, but my affirmation books with my journals, with my candle, with my music, with pictures of my family, like for me growing up, like it is being grounded in quiet and close to God in those moments.And that's my, that's my practice today. And I feel closer to God than I ever have. I see signs all the time. I think numerology is real. Like if something profound happens, I'm like, what time is it? I think, I think there's so many ways to connect with God. And when you choose to close yourself off to all the possibilities and all the possibilities of who God is, you will miss her.You going to miss, you're going to miss her. You gonna miss her. That's it.[00:58:00]De'Vannon: Let me see here. So we wanted to talk about the cube. As we begin to wrap it up, I'm going to read your favorite quote by Shirley Chisholm believes you better than she was the first black woman to put in a bid to be a presidential nominated back in the seventies and her eyeglass, a tiny her frame game was on point yes and date match for the gods date.And she said, if they don't give you a seat at the table, bring a folding chair. You go on to say in your it says in your, in your, in your website, you know, we bought our folding chairs and there hasn't been any equity to be found at those tables. It's time for us to build our own tables and our own chairs to this space and model the change we want to see in the world of podcasting.Anna: Yes. All of that. So I love Shirley chill. I love [00:59:00] everything. She's still fought. She she's made a lot of things possible and she had to bring her folding chair. Okay. She had to, they weren't inviting her to no tables. She had to bring a folding chair, but because of the work that she did and in fact that we can stand on the shoulders of so many other incredible, incredible people of history from Ella baker to Angela Davis, to Coretta Scott King, Utah, I mean, Elaine brown, I can go on and on.We can build our own tables. We don't have to wait on anyone to do anything for us. Should apple be more inclusive? Yes. Should Spotify be more inclusive? Yes, they should. But it is not about what they should do because capitalism rules this country. So if it's not, if it doesn't make money, it doesn't make sense in so many ways in that world, but we have an opportunity to do something different.[01:00:00]And I think we have an opportunity to shape, especially the podcasting space, because I feel like it's still very much so a new medium, I believe it's coming into its own after 20 years. And that's why I like new it's like, so it's such a funny thing to say because it's been 20 years, but for so many people, they are just really getting into what it could mean to listen to a podcast.And we can shape what we want this world to see. And I wanted to see more diverse. I want to see more people like me and I wasn't finding them. And so the cube will be that there'll be the one and only curated destination of music and podcasts by BiPAP and QT POC folks. And the music is powered by our radio station.Ethan. Which plays queer music and reports on queer news and high rotation specifically at the intersections of race and sexuality. So there's so many queer artists out here doing their thing, and you don't hear about them. [01:01:00] There's so many of them making good music. I got one of my favorite inspirational artists is a black queer woman who was on Sunday.Best Maya be you know, her, you know, like they deserve a space to be. And then there's like, dope podcasts is like, you whole deserve to be seen who to serve more visibility, more amplification of your work. And I think we can do it. And matter of fact, I know we can do it. We are doing it. And I think we can do it really, really well.So it's going to be an app or in development. My goal. My hope is that we are dropping beta in July and totally out to the public. By September of this year, we've accepted 94 podcasts into the app. We've got a team of folks listening to every single piece of podcast content, because we want the best pod-casters inside of our app.I want the best because there's a lot of poor Lee produced podcasts in the market. People who [01:02:00] sound like they got the iPhone on top of the roof on a fourth bottle of wine. Okay. And you know, that's okay. That's okay. You can do that. You got something to say and you better go say it. Okay. But they don't have to be what's in my ears.It doesn't have to be what's inside this app. I want it to have to be where the best reside and that's what resonates with me. And that's what we're building. De'Vannon: Yeah. I was listening to somebody, his podcasts earlier, who's trying to come on my show and be a guest. And I was like, God, I can't hear what you're saying.You sound muffled. Yes. Out there. So I thank you for your compliments. Just all the sex, drugs and jingles podcast has been accepted into the cube. So our clients, our quality is on point enough for these standards. And so. I'm going to read it a little bit further. So it says the cube is majority owned by a black queer woman and co-founded by three black LGBTQ persons.The cube will be a centralized [01:03:00] destination for discovery of BiPAP and QT pop music and podcasts. Tell us what the BiPAP and QT pox Anna: fans. Absolutely BiPAP is black indigenous people of color. And I choose to say BiPAP because I leave with my blackness. And so I choose to say black indigenous people of color.And then I choose to identify queer trans people of color specifically, even though we inside the BiPAP, we in there. But I think it's important for queer folks to know that I'm talking about that, that this platform is also for them, that I want to be able to center and amplify their work as well. And so that's why I, I include QT POC into the narrative now is my marketing team happy about that?No. Okay. It's a lot of words. It's a lot of acronyms people don't know what the heck I'm talking about, but the people, the people who know know. Right. And so, you know, at the end of the day I'm in this accelerator right now with Google, which is [01:04:00] really dope. It's the Google for startups like founders academy.And one of the mentors was like, I need five words, five words to describe your business. You should be able to describe your business in five words. And I was like, God, dang it. And so I came up with discover, discover the best bi-pod podcast. Right. If I had to describe it in five words, discover the best BiPAP podcast is what I came up with.And so that's what it all means. At the end of the day. It's about discovery. You will, will be able to listen to these podcasts inside of the app. And I hope people would choose to do that as well. There's an opportunity for Uproxx to tip their creators from within the app and that money would go straight to those creators.And I'm excited about that. The moment we get enough users, we'll be able to roll out an ad revenue sharing program, right? So we could put more money into creatives pockets who do want to make money from advertising. And, you know, I think we just continue to build this platform in this [01:05:00] space for folks to discover some of the amazing ways that black, brown, and queer folks of color show up in the world.And I think podcasting is a space that people are choosing to share their experiences with the world the same way you share yours. You know? I think there's a, there's a, I know there's a lot of people doing that and you just can't find them. De'Vannon: Up until now, because now Anna: you got the keyDe'Vannon: cue, baby. Yeah.All right. So just any last words you have for the world, any community, whatever you want to say, you can say, what the fuck you feel? Anna: I love it. I love, I can say whatever the fuck I feel.I feel like we're in. I feel like we're in a moment right now. So I, I feel like we've survived a pandemic and it feels like the world is restarting in some ways. [01:06:00] And I feel like we've got an opportunity here to change the way. We do media and podcasting has a way, has an opportunity to show folks how to do media collaboration.Right? I think we can show what it means to be a community inside of a media industry. I think podcasting has an opportunity to do it differently than what and how things have been done in the past. And so I hope that I, I hope that I can be part of that change. There are so many amazing people in this space doing amazing work, our partners.And my hope is that I can amplify them as well. So when we talk about the black podcast association, when I think about the women of color association, when I think about the

About AnnaAnna has nearly ten years of experience researching and advising organizations on cloud adoption with a focus on security best practices. As a Gartner Analyst, Anna spent six years helping more than 500 enterprises with vulnerability management, security monitoring, and DevSecOps initiatives. Anna's research and talks have been used to transform organizations' IT strategies and her research agenda helped to shape markets. Anna is the Director of Thought Leadership at Sysdig, using her deep understanding of the security industry to help IT professionals succeed in their cloud-native journey.Anna holds a PhD in Materials Engineering from the University of Michigan, where she developed computational methods to study solar cells and rechargeable batteries.How do I adapt my security practices for the cloud-native world?How do I select and deploy appropriate tools and processes to address business needs?How do I make sense of new technology trends like threat deception, machine learning, and containers?Links: Sysdig: https://sysdig.com/ “2022 Cloud-Native Security and Usage Report”: https://sysdig.com/2022-cloud-native-security-and-usage-report/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/aabelak LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aabelak/ Email: anna.belak@sysdig.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Today's episode is brought to you in part by our friends at MinIO the high-performance Kubernetes native object store that's built for the multi-cloud, creating a consistent data storage layer for your public cloud instances, your private cloud instances, and even your edge instances, depending upon what the heck you're defining those as, which depends probably on where you work. It's getting that unified is one of the greatest challenges facing developers and architects today. It requires S3 compatibility, enterprise-grade security and resiliency, the speed to run any workload, and the footprint to run anywhere, and that's exactly what MinIO offers. With superb read speeds in excess of 360 gigs and 100 megabyte binary that doesn't eat all the data you've gotten on the system, it's exactly what you've been looking for. Check it out today at min.io/download, and see for yourself. That's min.io/download, and be sure to tell them that I sent you.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle HeatWave is a new high-performance query accelerator for the Oracle MySQL Database Service, although I insist on calling it “my squirrel.” While MySQL has long been the worlds most popular open source database, shifting from transacting to analytics required way too much overhead and, ya know, work. With HeatWave you can run your OLAP and OLTP—don't ask me to pronounce those acronyms again—workloads directly from your MySQL database and eliminate the time-consuming data movement and integration work, while also performing 1100X faster than Amazon Aurora and 2.5X faster than Amazon Redshift, at a third of the cost. My thanks again to Oracle Cloud for sponsoring this ridiculous nonsense.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Once upon a time, I went to a conference talk at, basically, a user meetup. This was in the before times, when that wasn't quite as much of a deadly risk because of a pandemic, and mostly a deadly risk due to me shooting my mouth off when it wasn't particularly appreciated.At that talk, I wound up seeing a new open-source project that was presented to me, and it was called Sysdig. I wasn't quite sure on what it did at the time and I didn't know what it would be turning into, but here we are now, what is it, five years later. Well, it's turned into something rather interesting. This is a promoted episode brought to us by our friends at Sysdig and my guest today is their Director of Thought Leadership, Anna Belak. Anna, thank you for joining me.Anna: Hi, Corey. I'm very happy to be here. I'm a big fan.Corey: Oh, dear. So, let's start at the beginning. Well, we'll start with the title: Director of Thought Leadership. That is a lofty title, it sounds like you sit on the council of the Lords of Thought somewhere. Where does your job start and stop?Anna: I command the Council of the Lords of thought, actually. [laugh].Corey: Supply chain issues mean the robe wasn't available. I get it, I get it.Anna: There is a robe. I'm just not wearing it right now. So, the shortest way to describe the role is probably something that reports into engineering, interestingly, and it deals with product and marketing in a way that is half evangelism and half product strategy. I just didn't feel like being called any of those other things, so they were like, “Director of Thought Leadership you are.” And I was like, “That sounds awesome.”Corey: You know, it's one of those titles that people generally don't see a whole lot of, so if nothing else, I always liked those job titles that cause people to sit up and take notice as opposed to something that just people fall asleep by the time you get halfway through it because, in lieu of a promotion, people give you additional adjectives in your title. And we're going to go with it. So, before you wound up at Sysdig, you were at Gartner for a number of years.Anna: That's right, I spent about six years at Gartner, and there half the time I covered containers, Kubernetes, and DevOps from an infrastructure perspective, and half the time I spent covering security operations, actually, not specifically with respect to containers, or cloud, but broadly. And so my favorite thing is security operations, as it relates to containers and cloud-native workloads, which is kind of how I ended up here.Corey: I wouldn't call that my favorite thing. It's certainly something that is near and dear to the top of mind, but that's not because I like it, let's put it [laugh] that way. It's one of those areas where getting it wrong is catastrophic. Back in 2017, when I went to that meetup in San Francisco, Sysdig seemed really interesting to me because it looked like it tied together a whole bunch of different diagnostic tools, LSOF, strace, and the rest. Honestly—and I mean no slight to the folks who built out this particular tool—it felt like DTrace, only it understood the value of being accessible to its users without basically getting a doctorate in something.I like the idea, and it felt like it was very much aimed at an in-depth performance analysis story or an observability play. But today, it seems that you folks have instead gone in much more of a direction of DevSecOps, if the people listening to this, and you, will pardon the term. How did that happen? What was that product evolution like?Anna: Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment, actually. And again, no disrespect to DTrace of which I'm also a fan. So, we certainly started out in the container observability space, essentially because this whole Docker Kubernetes thing was exploding in popularity—I mean, before it was exploding, it was just kind of like, peaking out—and very quickly, our founder Loris, who is the co-founder of Wireshark, was like, “Hey, there's a visibility issue here. We can't see inside these things with the tools that we have that are built for host instrumentation, so I'm going to make a thing.” And he made a thing, and it was an awesome thing that was open-sourced.And then ultimately, what happened is, the ecosystem of containers and communities evolved, and more and more people started to adopt it. And so more people needed kind of a more, let's say, hefty, serious tool for observability, and then what followed was another tool for security because what we actually discovered was the data that we're able to collect from the system with Sysdig is incredibly useful for noticing security problems. So, that caused us to kind of expand into that space. And today we are very much a tool that still has an observability component that is quite popular, has a security component which is it's fairly broad: We cover CSPM use cases, we cover [CIEM 00:05:04] use cases, and we are very, kind of let's say, very strong and very serious about our detection response and runtime security use cases, which come from that pedigree of the original Sysdig as well.Corey: You can get a fairly accurate picture of what the future of technology looks like by taking a look at what my opinion of something is, and then doing the exact opposite of that. I was a big believer that virtualization, “Complete flash in the pan; who's going to use that?” Public cloud, “Are you out of your tree? No one's going to trust other companies with their holy of holies.” And I also spent a lot of time crapping on containers and not actually getting into them.Instead, I leapfrogged over into the serverless land, which I was a big fan of, which of course means that it's going to be doomed sooner or later. My security position has also somewhat followed similar tracks where, back when you're running virtual machines that tend to be persistent, you really have to care about security because you are running full-on systems that are persistent, and they run all kinds of different services simultaneously. Looking at Lambda Functions, for example, in the modern serverless world, I always find a lot of the tooling and services and offerings around security for that are a little overblown. They have a defined narrow input, they have a defined output, there usually aren't omnibus functions shoved in here where they have all kinds of different code paths. And it just doesn't have the same attack surface, so it often feels like it's trying to sell me something I don't need. Security in the container world is one of those areas I never had to deal with in anger, as a direct result. So, I have to ask, how bad is it?Anna: Well, I have some data to share with you, but I'll start by saying that I maybe was the opposite of you, so we'll see which one of us wins this one. I was an instant container fangirl from the minute I discovered them. But I crapped out—Corey: The industry shows you were right on that one. I think the jury [laugh] is pretty much in on this one.Anna: Oh, I will take it. But I did crap on Lambda Functions pretty hard. I was like, “Serverless? This is dumb. Like, how are we ever going to make that work?” So, it seems to be catching on a little bit, at least it. It does seem like serverless is playing the function of, like, the glue between bits, so that does actually make a lot of sense. In retrospect, I don't know that we're going to have—Corey: Well, it feels like it started off with a whole bunch of constraints around it, and over time, they've continued to relax those constraints. It used to be, “How do I package this?” It's, “Oh, simple. You just spent four days learning about all the ins and outs of this,” and now it's, “Oh, yeah. You just give it a Docker file?” “Oh. Well, that seems easier. I could have just been stubborn and waited.” Hindsight.Anna: Yeah, exactly. So, containers as they are today, I think are definitely much more usable than they were five-plus years ago. There are—again there's a lot of commercial support around these things, right? So, if you're, you know, like, a big enterprise client, then you don't really have time to fool around in open-source, you can go in, buy yourself a thing, and they'll come with support, and somebody will hold your hand as you figure it out, and it's actually quite, quite pleasant. Whether or not that has really gone mainstream or whether or not we've built out the entire operational ecosystem around it in a, let's say, safe and functional way remains to be seen. So, I'll share some data from our report, which is actually kind of the key thing I want to talk about.Corey: Yeah, I wanted to get into that. You wound up publishing this somewhat recently, and I regret that as of the time of this recording, I have not yet had time to go into it in-depth, and of course eviscerate it in my typical style on Twitter—although that may have been rectified by the time that this show airs, to be very clear—but it's the Sysdig “2022 Cloud-Native Security and Usage Report”.Anna: Please at me when you Twitter-shred it. [laugh].Corey: Oh, when I read through and screenshot it, and I'd make what observations that I imagine are witty. But I'm looking forward to it; I've done that periodically with the Flexera, “State of the Cloud” report for last few years, and every once in a while, whatever there's a, “We've done a piece of thought leadership, and written a report,” it's, “Oh, great. Let's make fun of it.” That's basically my default position on things. I am not a popular man, as you might imagine. But not having had the chance to go through it in-depth, what did this attempt to figure out when the study was built, and what did you learn that you found surprising?Anna: Yeah, so the first thing I want to point out because it's actually quite important is that this report is not a survey. This is actual data from our actual back end. So, we're a SaaS provider, we collect data for our customers, we completely anonymize it, and then we show in aggregate what in fact we see them doing or not doing. Because we think this is a pretty good indicator of what's actually happening versus asking people for their opinion, which is, you know, their opinion.Corey: Oh, I love that. My favorite lies that people tell are the lies they don't realize that they're telling. It's, I'll do an AWS bill analysis and, “Great. So, tell me about all these instances you have running over in Frankfurt.” “Oh, we don't have anything there.”I believe you're being sincere when you say this, however, the data does show otherwise, and yay, now we're in a security incident.Anna: Exactly.Corey: I'm a big believer of going to the actual source for things like this where it's possible.Anna: Exactly. So, I'll tell you my biggest takeaway from the whole thing probably was that I was surprised by the lack of… surprise. And I work in cloud-native security, so I'm kind of hoping every single day that people will start adopting these modern patterns of, like, discarding images, and deploying new ones when they found a vulnerability, and making ephemeral systems that don't run for a long time like a virtual machine in disguise, and so on. And it appears that that's just not really happening.Corey: Yeah, it's always been fun, more than a little entertaining, when I wind up taking a look at the aspirational plans that companies have. “Great, so when are you going to do”—“Oh, we're going to get to that after the next sprint.” “Cool.” And then I just set a reminder and I go back a year later, and, “How's that coming?” “Oh, yeah. We're going to get to that next sprint.”It's the big lie that we always tell ourselves that right after we finished this current project, then we're going to suddenly start doing smart things, making the right decisions, and the rest. Security, cost, and a few other things all tend to fall on the side of, you can spend infinite money and infinite time on these things, but it doesn't advance what your business is doing, but if you do none of those things, you don't really have a business anymore. So, it's always a challenge to get it prioritized by the strategic folks.Anna: Exactly. You're exactly right because what people ultimately do is they prioritize business needs, right? They are prioritizing whatever makes them money or creates the trinkets their selling faster or whatever it is, right? The interesting thing, though, is if you think about who our customers would be, like, who the people in this dataset are, they are all companies who are probably more or less born in the cloud or at least have some arm that is born in the cloud, and they are building software, right? So, they're not really just your average enterprises you might see in a Gartner client base which is more broad; they are software companies.And for software companies, delivering software faster is the most important thing, right, and then delivering secure software faster, should be the most important thing, but it's kind of like the other thing that we talk about and don't do. And that's actually what we found. We found that people do deliver software faster because of containers and cloud, but they don't necessarily deliver secure software faster because as is one of our data points, 75% of containers that run in production have critical or high vulnerabilities that have a patch available. So, they could have been fixed but they weren't fixed. And people ask why, right? And why, well because it's hard; because it takes time; because something else took priority; because I've accepted the risk. You know, lots of reasons why.Corey: One of the big challenges, I think, is that I can walk up and down the expo hall at the RSA Conference, which until somewhat recently, you were not allowed to present that or exhibit at unless you had the word ‘firewall' in your talk title, or wound up having certain amounts of FUD splattered across your banners at the show floor. It feels like there are 12 products—give or take—for sale there, but there are hundreds of booths because those products have different names, different messaging, and the rest, but it all feels like it distills down to basically the same general categories. And I can buy all of those things. And it costs an enormous pile of money, and at the end of it, it doesn't actually move the needle on what my business is doing. At least not in a positive direction, you know? We just set a giant pile of money on fire to make sure that we're secure.Well, great. Security is never an absolute, and on top of that, there's always the question of what are we trying to achieve as a business. As a goal—from a strategic perspective—security often looks a lot like, “Please let's not have a data breach that we have to report to people.” And ideally, if we have a lapse, we find out about it through a vector that is other than the front page of The New York Times. That feels like it's a challenging thing to get prioritized in a lot of these companies. And you have found in your report that there are significant challenges, of course, but also that some companies in some workloads are in fact getting it right.Anna: Right, exactly. So, I'm very much in line with your thinking about this RSA shopping spree, and the reality of that situation is that even if we were to assume that all of the products you bought at the RSA shopping center were the best of breed, the most amazing, fantastic, perfect in every way, you would still have to somehow build a program on top of them. You have to have a process, you have to have people who are bought into that process, who are skilled enough to execute on that process, and who are more or less in agreement with the people next door to them who are stuck using one of the 12 trinkets you bought, but not the one that you're using. So, I think that struggle persists into the cloud and may actually be worse in the cloud because now, not only are we having to create a processor on all these tools so that we can actually do something useful with them, but the platform in which we're operating is fundamentally different than what a lot of us learned on, right?So, the priorities in cloud are different; the way that infrastructure is built is a little different, like, you have to program a YAML file to make yourself an instance, and that's kind of not how we are used to doing it necessarily, right? So, there are lots of challenges in terms of skills gap, and then there's just this eternal challenge of, like, how do we put the right steps into place so that everybody who's involved doesn't have to suffer, right, and that the thing that comes out at the end is not garbage. So, our approach to it is to try to give people all the pieces they need within a certain scope, so again, we're talking about people developing software in a cloud-native world, we're focused kind of on containers and cloud workloads even though it's not necessarily containers. So that's, like, our sandbox, right? But whoever you are, right, the idea is that you need to look to the left—because we say ‘shift left'—but then you kind of have to follow that thread all the way to the right.And I actually think that the thing that people most often neglect is the thing on the right, right? They maybe check for compliance, you know, they check configurations, they check for vulnerabilities, they check, blah, blah, blah, all this checking and testing. They release their beautiful baby into the world, and they're like, okay, I wash my hands of it. It's fine. [laugh]. Right but—Corey: It has successfully been hurled over the fence. It is the best kind of problem, now: Someone else's.Anna: It's gone. Yeah. But it's someone else's—the attacker community, right, who are now, like, “Oh, delicious. A new target.” And like, that's the point at which the fun starts for a lot of those folks who are on the offensive side. So, if you don't have any way to manage that thing's security as it's running, you're kind of like missing the most important piece, right? [laugh].Corey: One of the challenges that I tend to see with a lot of programmatic analysis of this is that it doesn't necessarily take into account any of the context because it can't. If I have, for example, a containerized workload that's entire job is to take an image from S3, run some analysis or transformation on it then output the results of that to some data store, and that's all it's allowed to talk to you, it can't ever talk to the internet, having a system that starts shrieking about, “Ah, there's a vulnerability in one of the libraries that was used to build that container; fix it, fix it, fix it,” doesn't feel like it's necessarily something that adds significant value to what I do. I mean, I see this all the time with very purpose-built Lambda Functions that I have doing one thing and one thing only. “Ah, but one of the dependencies in the JSON processing library could turn into something horrifying.” “Yeah, except the only JSON it's dealing with is what DynamoDB returns. The only thing in there is what I've put in there.”That is not a realistic vector of things for me to defend against. The challenge then becomes when everything is screaming that it's an emergency when you know, due to context, that it's not, people just start ignoring everything, including the, “Oh, and by the way, the building is on fire,” as one of—like, on page five, that's just a small addendum there. How do you view that?Anna: The noise insecurity problem, I think, is ancient and forever. So, it was always bad, right, but in cloud—at least some containers—you would think it should be less bad, right, because if we actually followed these sort of cloud-native philosophy, of creating very purp—actually it's called the Unix philosophy from, like, I don't know, before I was born—creating things that are fairly purposeful, like, they do one thing—like you're saying—and then they disappear, then it's much easier to know what they're able to do, right, because they're only able to do what we've told them, they're able to do. So, if this thing is enabled to make one kind of network connection, like, I'm not really concerned about all the other network connections it could be making because it can't, right? So, that should make it easier for us to understand what the attack surface actually is. Unfortunately, it's fairly difficult to codify and productize the discovery of that, and the enrichment of the vulnerability information or the configuration information with that.That is something we are definitely focusing on as a vendor. There are other folks in the industry that are also working on this kind of thing. But you're exactly right, the prioritization of not just a vulnerability, but a vulnerability is a good example. Like, it's a vulnerability, right? Maybe it's a critical or maybe it's not.First of all, is it exposed to the outside world somehow? Like, can we actually talk to this system? Is it mitigated, right? Maybe there's some other controls in place that is mitigating that vulnerability. So, if you look at all this context, at the end of the day, the question isn't really, like, how many of these things can I ignore? The question is at the very least, which are the most important things that I actually can't ignore? So, like you're saying, like, the buildings on fire, I need to know, and if it's just, like, a smoldering situation, maybe that's not so bad. But I really need to know about the fire.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by LaunchDarkly. Take a look at what it takes to get your code into production. I'm going to just guess that it's awful because it's always awful. No one loves their deployment process. What if launching new features didn't require you to do a full-on code and possibly infrastructure deploy? What if you could test on a small subset of users and then roll it back immediately if results aren't what you expect? LaunchDarkly does exactly this. To learn more, visit launchdarkly.com and tell them Corey sent you, and watch for the wince.Corey: It always becomes a challenge of prioritization, and that has been one of those things that I think, on some level, might almost cut against a tool that works at the level that Sysdig does. I mean, something that you found in your report, but I feel like, on some level, is one of those broadly known, or at least unconsciously understood things is, you can look into a lot of these tools that give incredibly insightful depth and explore all kinds of neat, far-future, bleeding edge, absolute front of the world, deep-dive security posture defenses, but then you have a bunch of open S3 buckets that have all of your company's database backups living in them. It feels like there's a lot of walk before you can run. And then that, on some level, leads to the wow, we can't even secure our S3 buckets; what's the point of doing anything beyond that? It's easy to, on some level, almost despair, want to give up, for some folks that I've spoken to. Do you find that is a common thing or am I just talking to people who are just sad all the time?Anna: I think a lot of security people are sad all the time. So, the despair is real, but I do think that we all end up in the same solution, right? The solution is defense in depth, the solution is layer control, so the reality is if you don't bother with the basic security hygiene of keeping your buckets closed, and like not giving admin access to every random person and thing, right? If you don't bother with those things, then, like, you're right, you could have all the tools in the world and you could have the most advanced tools in the world, and you're just kind of wasting your time and money.But the flipside of that is, people will always make mistakes, right? So, even if you are, quote-unquote, “Doing everything right,” we're all human, and things happen, and somebody will leave a bucket open on accident, or somebody will misconfigure some server somewhere, allowing it to make a connection it shouldn't, right? And so if you actually have built out a full pipeline that covers you from end-to-end, both pre-deployment, and at runtime, and for vulnerabilities, and misconfigurations, and for all of these things, then you kind of have checks along the way so that this problem doesn't make it too far. And if it does make it too far and somebody actually does try to exploit you, you will at least see that attack before they've ruined everything completely.Corey: One thing I think Sysdig gets very right that I wish this was not worthy of commenting on, but of course, we live in the worst timeline, so of course it is, is that when I pull up the website, it does not market itself through the whole fear, uncertainty, and doubt nonsense. It doesn't have the scary pictures of, “Do you know what's happening in your environment right now?” Or the terrifying statistics that show that we're all about to die and whatnot. Instead, it talks about the value that it offers its customers. For example, I believe its opening story is, “Run with confidence.” Like, great, you actually have some reassurance that it is not as bad as it could be. That is, on the one hand, a very uplifting message and two, super rare. Why is it that so much of the security industry resorts to just some of the absolute worst storytelling tactics in order to drive sales?Anna: That is a huge compliment, Corey, and thank you. We try very hard to be kind of cool in our marketing.Corey: It shows. I'm tired of the 1990s era story of, “Do you know where the hackers are?” And of course, someone's wearing, like, a ski mask and typing with gloves on—which is always how I break into things; I don't know about you—but all right, we have the scary clip art of the hacker person, and it just doesn't go anywhere positive.Anna: Yeah. I mean, I think there certainly was a trend for a while have this FUD approach. And it's still prevalent in the industry, in some circles more than others. But at the end of the day, Cloud is hard and security is hard, and we don't really want to add to the suffering; we would like to add to the solution, right? So, I don't think people don't know that security is hard and that hackers are out there.And you know, there's, like, ransomware on the news every single day. It's not exactly difficult to tell that there's a challenge there, so for us to have to go and, like, exacerbate this fear is almost condescending, I feel, which is kind of why we don't. Like, we know people have problems, and they know that they need to solve them. I think the challenge really is just making sure that A) can folks know where to start and how to build a sane roadmap for themselves? Because there are many, many, many things to work on, right?We were talking about context before, right? Like, so we actually try to gather this context and help people. You made a comment about how having a lot of telemetry might actually be a little bit counterproductive because, like, there's too much data, what do I do well—Corey: Here's the 8000 findings we found that you fail—great. Yeah. Congratulations, you're effectively the Nessus report as a company. Great. Here you go.Anna: Everything is over.Corey: Yeah.Anna: Well, no shit, Nessus, you know. Nessus did its thing. All right. [laugh].Corey: Oh, Nessus was fantastic. Nessus was—for those who are unaware, Nessus was an open-source scanner made by the folks at Tenable, and what was great about it was that you could run it against an environment, it would spit out all the things that it found. Now, one of the challenges, of course, is that you could white-label this and slap whatever logo you wanted on the top, and there were a lot of ‘security consultancies' that use the term incredibly… lightly, that would just run a Nessus report, drop off the thick print out. “Here's the 800 things you need to fix. Pay me.” And wander on off into the sunset.And when you have 800 things you need to fix, you fix none of them. And they would just sit there and atrophy on the shelf. Not to say that all those things weren't valid findings, but you know, the whole, you're using an esoteric, slightly deprecated TLS algorithm on one of your back-end services, versus your Elasticsearch database does not have a password set. Like, there are different levels of concern here. And that is the problem.Anna: Yeah. That is in fact one of the problems we're aggressively trying to solve, right? So, because we see so much of the data, we're actually able to piece together a lot of context to gives you a sense of risk, right? So, instead of showing all the data to the customer—the customer can see it if they want; like, it's all in there, you can look at it—one of the things we're really trying to do is collect enough information about the finding or the event or the vulnerability or whatever, so we can kind of tell you what to do.For example, one you can do this is super basic, but if you're looking at a specific vulnerability, like, let's say it's like Log4j or whatever, you type it in, and you can see all your systems affected by this thing, right? Then you can, in the same tool, like, click to the other tab, and you can see events associated with this vulnerability. So, if you can see the systems that the vulnerability is on and you can see there's weird activity on those systems, right? So, if you're trying to triage some weird thing in your environment, during the Log4j disaster, it's very easy for you to be like, “Huh. Okay, these are the relevant systems. This is the vulnerability. Like, here's all that I know about this stuff.”So, we kind of try to simplify as much as possible—my design team uses the word ‘easify,' which I love; it's a great word—to easify, the experience of the end-user so that they can get to whatever it is they're trying to do today. Like, what can I do today to make my company more secure as quickly as possible? So, that is sort of our goal. And all this huge wealth of information we gather, we try to package for the users in a way that is, in fact, digestible. And not just like, “Here's a deluge of suffering,” like, “Look.” [laugh]. You know?Corey: This is definitely complicated in the environment I tend to operate in which is almost purely AWS. How much more complex is get when people start looking into the multi-cloud story, or hybrid environments where they have data center is talking to things within AWS? Because then it's not just the expanded footprint, but the entire security model works slightly differently in all of those different environments as well, and it feels like that is not a terrific strategy.Anna: Yeah, this is tough. My feelings on multi-cloud are mostly negative, actually.Corey: Oh, thank goodness. It's not just me.Anna: I was going to say that, like, multi-cloud is not a strategy; it's just something that happens to you.Corey: Same with hybrid. No one plans to do hybrid. They start doing a cloud migration, realize halfway through some things are really hard to move, give up, plant the flag, declare victory, and now it's called hybrid.Anna: Basically. But my position—and again, as an analyst, you kind of, I think, end up in this position, you just have a lot of sympathy for the poor people who are just trying to get these stupid systems to run. And so I kind of understand that, like, nothing's ideal, and we're just going to have to work with it. So multi-cloud, I think is one of those things where it's not really ideal, we just have to work with it. There's certainly advantages to it, like, there's presumably some level of mythical redundancy or whatever. I don't know.But the reality is that if you're trying to secure a pile of junk in Azure and a pile of junk in AWS, like, it'd be nice if you had, like, one tool that told you what to do with both piles of junk, and sometimes we do do that. And in fact, it's very difficult to do that if you're not a third-party tool because if you're AWS, you don't have much incentive to, like, tell people how to secure Azure, right? So, any tool in the category of, like, third-party CSPM—Gartner calls them CWPP—kind of, cloud security is attempting to span those clouds because they always have to be relevant, otherwise, like, what's the point, right?Corey: Well, I would argue cynically there's also the VC model, where, “Oh, great. If we cover multiple cloud providers, that doubles or triples our potential addressable market.” And, okay, great, I don't have those constraints, which is why I tend to focus on one cloud provider where I tend to see the problems I know how to solve as opposed to trying to conquer the world. I guess I have my bias on that one.Anna: Fair. But there's—I think the barrier to entry is lower as a security vendor, right? Especially if you're doing things like CSPMs. Take an example. So, if you're looking at compliance requirements, right, if your team understands, like, what it means to be compliant with PCI, you know, like, [line three 00:28:14] or whatever, you can apply that to Azure and Amazon fairly trivially, and be like, “Okay, well, here's how I check in Azure, and here's how I check in Amazon,” right?So, it's not very difficult to, I think, engineer that once you understand the basic premise of what you're trying to accomplish. It does become complicated as you're trying to deal with more and more different cloud services. Again, if you're kind of trying to be a cloud security company, you almost have no choice. Like, you have to either say, “I'm only doing this for AWS,” which is kind of a weird thing to do because they're kind of doing their own half-baked thing already, or I have to do this for everybody. And so most default to doing it for everybody.Whether they do it equally well, for everybody, I don't know. From our perspective, like, there's clearly a roadmap, so we have done one of them first and then one of them second and one of the third, and so I guarantee you that we're better in some than others. So, I think you're going to have pluses and minuses no matter what you do, but ultimately what you're looking for is coverage of the tool's capabilities, and whether or not you have a program that is going to leverage that tool, right? And then you can check the boxes of like, “Okay. Does it do the AWS thing? Does it do this other AWS thing? Does it do this Azure thing?”Corey: I really appreciate your taking the time out of your day to speak with me. We're going to throw a link to the report itself in the [show notes 00:29:23], but other than that, if people want to learn more about how you view these things, where's the best place to find you?Anna: I am—rarely—but on Twitter at @aabelak. I am also on LinkedIn like everybody else, and in the worst case, you could find me by email, at anna.belak@sysdig.com.Corey: And we will of course put links to that in the [show notes 00:29:44]. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. I appreciate it.Anna: Thanks for having me, Corey. It's been fun.Corey: Anna Belak, Director of Thought Leadership at Sysdig. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is streaming on the cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry comment telling me not only why this entire approach to security is awful and doomed to fail, but also what booth number I can find you at this year's RSA Conference.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Topher Morrison has tips aplenty when it comes to authors getting booked to speak and it makes sense: he is, after all, the founder of Personofi, a firm that specializes in brand messaging for small business owners. He is the author of four best-selling books and was voted one of the top 10 business speakers in Tampa Bay. His extensive speaking career, spanning over the past 30 years, has earned him a global reputation as an expert in mass communication and influence. He has spoken for top execs with American Express, Microsoft and Google, just to name a few. In this episode, he shared so many gems I'd never heard before—including where authors who have never spoken before can get experience for a reel, the importance of a one-sheet, how to make a book into a speech by using the vignettes in it, why the opening of the speech should not be the same as your first chapter and how to sell your book while speaking without sounding like a douche. WANT 7 DAYS OF WRITING TIPS? GO TO WWW.YOURBOOKWRITINGTIPS.COM TRANSCRIPT: Anna: Okay Topher, thank you so much for coming to chat with me today. Topher: I am stoked. It's been first off way too long since we've chatted anyway. When did we meet each other, 10 years ago, maybe longer? Anna: Hold on. It wasn't quite 10 years ago, but this is sort of an awesome thing. I was thinking about it because there's a comedian that I used to know pretty well and I haven't seen him since then. I think it was John Heffron, right? Topher: John Heffron. We are still good buds. Yes. That's how I met you. Anna: But I think what happened is I saw him tweet about you. Or he told me directly. He said, "I know this guy, I work with this guy who's the best speaking coach." And I reach out to you and you were so sweet. And you said, "I'm going to be in LA. I'll just work with you." Or maybe you even said, "I'll come to LA." Topher: I can't remember. Anna: And I remember because I had this office at WeWork and you worked with me and you really helped me restructure a talk that I had and deliver it. And you are just such a sweet, sweet person and so good at what you do. Topher: Thanks. Anna: I'm really happy that you're here to talk about something I've never talked about on the podcast and my listeners are very much interested in, which is how do you convert a book into a talk? And how do you use the fact that you're an author to get booked as a speaker? So let's actually do it backward. Because as I always say, if there are two people that a booker is considering, and they're equal, but one has a book, they're always going to book the author. Tell me about that. Topher: Every single time they will pick the published author over the unpublished author even if the other speaker is a better speaker and has a better demo reel and is more entertaining. They will almost always, I guess I should probably preserve that, not be so hyperbolic, but they will almost always pick the author. Because there is this perceived notion in society that authors are experts. And that's probably rightly earned as well. At least if it's a good book, they probably are an expert in it and they took a long time, you know, you've written a book, it ain't easy. It's hard. So by the time somebody's gone through all that process, they are probably an expert. But it's a false assumption, but it is a societal assumption that the authors are the experts. Yeah. Anna: Yes. It's why we do what we do. Because a lot of our clients are experts, but nobody knows that because they've sort of been working towards their expertise, doing their 10,000 hours of work, and they need that book to show the world. Topher: Yeah, they're working on their craft. They're the world's best-kept secret because they're an expert in it and they are bonafide phenomenal and they don't have the book. And there's just no social proof. In fact, the scary part is that, especially in today's society, because publishing has become such a mainstream thing, nowadays the question people get is, "Have you written a book?" And you know, if somebody ever asked you, "Well, do you have any books? Have you written any book on it?" you know you're six months or a year behind if people are asking if you have a book and you don't. You definitely want to have one, no doubt about it. And the only anything better than having one is having two or three or four. Anna: Or eight like me, right. Topher: Yeah. Ooh. Anna: And, oftentimes bookers are quite excited to have a signing. So I think that that's... And/or a lot of speakers will gift their book or they'll say basically, "Hey, if you buy 200 copies, you don't have to pay me." Tell me a little bit about how that works. Topher: Yeah. So there are several different packages that you can offer as a speaker when you have a book, which is just what you just said. You have your speaking fee and then you will gift a certain number of books. Or you could have bought my book and I will speak for free. And something people might say, "Well, why is that important?" Because the monies to buy the books come out of a different account than the money to pay the speakers in large corporations. So they may have already blown their budget on their conference for their speakers, but yet they still have money in their budget for swag bags. And by the way, that's a great way to say, "We'll get the books in time for you to put them in your swag bags," and they love that as well. So it comes out of a different purse. And so, while you may have a budget that you have to stay within the speaker fees, the book fees could be added. And it's just a great way for you to have more flexibility and still get maximum dollars from that event. Anna: That's so interesting. I've never thought about that. And then, of course, if you have a business and let's say you one client is worth anywhere from a thousand dollars to a hundred thousand dollars, it is well worth the investment in the $3 a book or whatever it's going to cost for you to gift that. Topher: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Although, definitely don't gift it first, sell it first. And then if they don't buy, then go down to hard costs. And then if they don't buy, then you can gift. Start off with the price that makes you the most amount of money, obviously. Because like I said, sometimes these big corporations don't bat an eye. Remember this, the one thing I love to tell people when they're thinking about charging their speaking fees and like, "Oh, how much is the right fee and blah, blah, blah, blah," remember that the bar tab at a conference for a large corporation will outweigh your speaking fee by at least five times, at least five times. Just keep that in mind. It may seem like a big fee for us when we charge it. It is a drop in the bucket for these large corporations that are hosting and spending $300,000, a half million, $2 million, $10 million on their annual conferences. A $10,000 or a $20,000 speaking fee is nothing for these companies. Anna: Let's say I'm a first-time author. And my book, maybe I feel, because I hear people say this, not qualified to be an expert, even though I have all this hard-earned personal experience, but I don't have a master's degree or I don't have whatever, and I go, "Okay, I want to be a speaker." How do I start? Topher: Okay. And you don't have a book or you do have a book? Anna: You do have a book. You have your first book and you're like, "Okay, here we go with speaking. What do I do?" Topher: Perfect. Well, at the risk of sounding self-promotional, hire a speaking coach for one, because you could have the best information in the world and if you don't know how to present it in a palatable way, they're never going to book you back. So you absolutely want to do that. And by the way, you should probably get a media coach as well, because you're going to be asked to speak on TV or on the radio. And if you've never been in front of a camera or you've never had a microphone shoved in front of your face, it can be quite intimidating. Anna, you know this. You've done this for years. So for you, it's second nature. But if you can recall back to that first time you were on the bright lights in the camera, it's unnerving, right? And so you could have all the... The natural law of memory, it is inhibited when you are relaxed. It is enhanced when you're relaxed, it's inhibited when you're stressed. And nothing can cause more stress to a new time author than is the first time they're on a show. You could forget your damn name when you're on TV. So hire a media coach for sure or a speech coach. Topher: But beyond that, and I'm not trying to push my services either, I'm really not. What I'm saying, though, is that the delivery is as important as the knowledge. And that's the point that I want to make. Absolutely. Yeah. So you want to make sure you have that. Then once you do that, so the question is you're a new time... You want to break into the speaking gig, you need to have a one-sheet. It is the most important marketing piece for a speaker. It's more important than a sizzle reel, by the way, is the one sheet. The one-sheet is exactly what it sounds like. It's one piece of paper. It probably has your picture. It has your brief bio. It has a highlight of what you are going to learn in the keynote or one of the takeaways that the audience will get. And it probably has some quotes from people that are impressed by you that have some name notoriety that people if they were to see those quotes who go, "Well, if this person's saying they're good, they must be amazing." That's really all it is. Topher: And oftentimes, the one-sheet will make a bigger impact than the sizzle reel. Because the sizzle reel requires a computer to watch. And keep in mind, sometimes these board meetings where you've got the planner and you've got the board and they're all sitting around, they don't have time to sit there and watch 15 different speaker reels. So you're lucky if they'll watch it. They probably won't. What they're going to do is they're going to refer to the person who found you, who's [inaudible 00:09:02] and saying, "Hey, this is a great speaker. Here's their one sheet." And they look at it and they go, "Yeah, they look like they're smart. I like the photo. It was a professional headshot. It doesn't look like it's a stupid selfie." By the way, also be sure that you're investing in a good professional one sheet. And it just gives a quick highlight. That's oftentimes all they make the decision. They don't need to see the sizzle reel. Anna: I'm curious, so they'll book speakers without seeing how they speak. Topher: Yeah, absolutely. It depends. If you were referred to them, almost always they don't need to see the sizzle reel. If you're the one knocking on their door, doing the Oliver Twist, "Please sir, may I have a cup of porridge," then yeah, you might need to get them to watch the sizzle reel to know that you're good. But for the most part, you want to get your message out to as many people as possible so people who are on those committees hear about you and then they come to the committee and they go, "Oh my God, I saw this person on YouTube," or, "I saw this person on a podcast," or, "I heard this person on a podcast. They were amazing. I think they'd be great for our presentation." It can literally boil down to that. And they're like, "Yeah, good. Let's get them booked." Anna: Okay, but so then, and I remember how I solved this, here's the problem, you go, "Okay, I want to get booked. I don't have a sizzle reel because I've never spoken." So how do you get around that? Topher: Okay. Well, there are a couple of things. Nowadays, at the risk of aging myself, back in my day, it was hard to get video production. But nowadays, for crying out loud, you've got a 4k camera on your phone. You can set something up. It doesn't have to matter. Have a small event at your house if you have to, invite some people over. If you don't have a nice house, go to your friend's house who's got a nice house, I don't care. And do a quick presentation. Have it set up. The only thing that I'd recommend is that if you're going to set up an iPhone or a smartphone, don't use the microphone. As powerful as phones are in their high definition, 4k recording quality, they still suck when it comes to the recording of audio. So go get one... Nowadays, by the way, it used to be like an $800 lapel mic you'd have to get, nowadays, you can get it for 50 bucks, you can get these wireless lapel mics that plug right into your phone, you clip them, and the sound is just impeccable. It's beautiful. And just do something like that just so they know that when you get up in front of people, you're not going to stumble and fall and make a fool of yourself. It can literally be something as unofficial as that. Topher: But also, it's not that hard to get booked to speak nowadays. There are so many organizations from One Million Cups up to your chambers of commerce, all of the animal clubs, the Elks, the Moose, the Eagles, whatever. Those people are starving for speakers to come in. And just reach out to all of the local chapters, all of the local organizations that are in some level of professionalism and just say, "Hey, you know what? I've just published my first book. It's on this topic. And I think that your audience might benefit from it. I'm not trying to sell anything. I'm just trying to get some exposure and some experience speaking in front of the stage. I would love to come out to your group and give them a 20 minute or a 30 minute or a 15-minute presentation," whatever it is that your keynote is, "And there's no catch. There's no sales pitch. I just want permission to record it so I can improve and do better later." And honestly, you could book yourself up a month straight with local chapters for organizations that are just looking for people to come out and speak to their audiences. Anna: That's an amazing, amazing tip. So let's say I have my book. How do I make my book into a speech? Topher: Okay. Remind me, by the way, before we get off this call, to share with your listeners some techniques on how to sell the hell out of their books when they speak without being a salesy, douche-baggy guy. So remind me to do that. Anna: Love it. Topher: So what your question was, how do you turn the book into a speech? So let's first break down what a speech comprises. A speech, the best analogy that I can give, and I'm going to roll credits to this, by the way, to a gentleman by the name of Bill Gove. Now, I did not learn directly from Bill. I learned from his mentee, which is a guy named Steve Seebold, and he's a good friend of mine. And Bill Gove by the way, is kind of like the grandfather of motivational speaking. He is the guy who started it all. All of the great speakers that we admire love today, most of them are trained by this guy named Bill Gove, 30, 40 years ago. And he had it so well. He said, "A keynote speech is nothing but..." I'm paraphrasing his statements here, "A keynote speech is nothing but a concert in spoken word." So you want to have, just like if you were to go to a concert, you want to have your songs rehearsed. You want to be able to know in what order those songs are going to be played. And you want to have practiced those songs so well that if something were to happen on stage, it wouldn't throw your game off. In fact, you could even improvise and play around with that a little bit and make it look like it's effortless. Topher: So think of your speech as a concert in spoken word. And your concert is broken down into short little songs. Yours are vignettes. And a great speech is made up of short little vignettes, no more than five minutes apiece, as short as 30 seconds apiece. And they are stacked together one after another, in whatever order makes the most sense for the flow and the feel of the concert, just like a concert. You want to start off with something dynamic, but not your best hit. You want to start off with something that just kind of warms up the crowd. And then you want to build up. And then at some point in time, you need to slow down and you need to relax and you got to put the ballad on. Because you can't have a concert that's just loud, nonstop. And then after the slow, then you got to build it back up again. And presentations have that same flow. I call it the charisma pattern, by the way, which is that there is a cadence to a presentation, which is you start off at a medium pace, you work up into a louder, faster pace, and then as you get louder and faster, then you drop it down to something slow and soft. Anna: It's interesting because a book, the best, the most effective way to do a memoir is to have your first two chapters be the bottom, the most dramatic, and then you move into childhood so that doesn't... And then you start going chronologically. And then around chapter eight, you catch up to whatever that first chapter was. And that's not what you do with speaking. Topher: No. Yeah. So interestingly enough, the same strategies and skills that make a great book a great book, do not translate into what makes a great presentation. Nor do great strategies and skills as a speaker in a live audience translate to being a great speaker on camera as well. There are differences between all of those things. But there are different environments. I'm glad that you brought that up. It makes a big difference. With the presentation, you don't want to start off with your best. You want to just kind of warm up the crowd a little bit. Because let's face it, they're still sussing you out. If they bought your book, at some level, they're kind of convinced. But remember, buying a book is this person has something I need and I want to hear it. But in a presentation and a keynote, it's completely the opposite. It's, "Who is this yahoo, and why do I have to sit here and listen to them speak?" Totally different market. So you kind of got to win them over. And if you go in too hard, too fast, you're like that guy at the bar who's just hitting on the girls a little bit too fast and too hard. Slow your roll, cowboy. Just bring it down a notch or two. Be cool. Anna: Yeah. You don't walk up and propose. Topher: Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Or maybe you don't even walk up. Maybe you just sit there and just let them come to you. You got to know your game, right? Anna: Look at that. And so how do you know, do you need 10 anecdotes? How many do you need? Let's say this is a 10-minute speech. Do you need 10 anecdotes? Topher: Sure. Fantastic. Yeah. Listen, if you could do 10, I'll call them vignettes, because that's my language, but an anecdote is the same thing, yep, 10 anecdotes, 10 vignettes in 10 minutes would be an unbelievably awesome speech. Most people are not that well-rehearsed. They could maybe get two to three vignettes out in a 10-minute speech. Only a pro could do 10 in 10 minutes. And I always think back to, and I'm sure you've heard this quote, I believe it was Mark Twain, who said, "I apologize for not writing a shorter speech. I didn't have time." Or something to that effect. I'm sorry it was so long. I didn't have time to write a shorter one, or something like that. Anna: It's been attributed to so many people. Allegedly, it was a note to his wife, and who knows who he is. And it said, "I wanted to write you a short note. I wanted to..." Oh, you know. Yeah. That basically it's harder to do short than it is long is the point. Topher: Yeah, yeah. You get the idea. Same thing with the presentation. If I just wanted to tell some ideas and I didn't have them rehearsed, I would ramble on and on, I would get derailed, I would come back and I would be disheveled. And I would be like, "La, la, la, la." But on a keynote, you cannot do that. You have to have everything you're going to say rehearsed and prepared so you know how to do it. Now, the question is how many vignettes do I need for an amount of time? What I would say to that is this, it's not so much how many vignettes for a certain amount of time, it's just that do you know how much time each vignette takes? Topher: So create a vignette book with all the different stories that you have. And by the way, go into your book. This is back to your original question, how do you convert a book into a keynote? You take the best stories in your book. You bring them out of the book and you say, "Okay, what are the lessons or the big takeaways that this story in my book reveals?" And by the way, you could twist your stories just slightly to focus on something just slightly different. And one story you could have 10 or 15 different takeaways that you would use depending upon the audience that you're speaking with. So for example, oftentimes you'll hear keynote speakers, they'll say something like, "And we will customize the presentation to your audience." They don't. The good ones don't anyway. But what they do is they customize the takeaways to the audience, but the stories are always the same. And they're repeated the exact same way every single time with the right inflection because it's a song in spoken word. You got to practice it. But you do want to know what those takeaways and those lessons are. Topher: And then what I do is when somebody books me, I say, "Okay, well what are the current challenges that your company's dealing with? What are the things, what are the takeaways that your audience wants?" And then when they give those to me, then I go, "Okay, now what stories do I have that would fit into that category?" And then I'll apply that story to that takeaway. And then I just simply go, "All right, well, this is the number of takeaways," and I add up, this is a three-minute speech, this is a five-minute speech, this is a 30-second speech. And I add them all together and then I've got my presentation length. Now, sometimes though, your committees, your speaking committees, will go, "We just want them motivated. We just want them to be grateful that they're here at the conference. That's fine. We just want them having fun." "Okay, good. Then leave it up to me and I'll do my thing. How much time do you want me to speak?' And they'll say 45 minutes. And then you go, "Great." And then you go through and you put your song list together of all your different vignettes that add up to 45 minutes. Topher: Now, here's the cool thing about breaking a speech down into little bite-size vignettes. I have never in the history of speaking professionally in over 30 years, I have never, ever shown up for a keynote presentation where they have said, "Remember the agreed-upon time we asked you, that's exactly how much time we want you to speak." It has never ever, ever gone that way. This is always what happens. Once again, I'm speaking a little hyperbolic. I'm sure that I had one or two, but I just don't remember them. Topher: This is what normally will happen when somebody books you to speak. They'll come up to you backstage, usually five minutes before you're ready to go on, and they'll say something like this, they'll go, "Our next speaker is stuck at the airport. They're not going to be here. I know this is really last minute. I'm so sorry to ask this. I know we only asked you to speak for 45 minutes, but could you speak for 55 minutes?" or, "Could you speak for an hour and 15 minutes? If we have to pay you more, we will." By the way, they will say that too. But if they don't offer, by the way, that's fine. Just be cool. And they'll go, "Can you stretch it out to an hour and 15 minutes?" And then you go, "Absolutely. No problem. Because you know you've got a bank of other stories that didn't make the cut and you're just going to add a couple more of them in, not a big deal. Topher: Most commonly, though, that's not what's going to happen. Most commonly, they're going to come to you five minutes before your presentation and go, "Hey, I know we asked you to speak for 45 minutes, but the vice president just showed up and he's on a tight deadline. He's got to get on a plane. He wants to get on stage a little bit of earlier. I hate to do this to you. I know we asked you to speak for 45 minutes. Could you cut your presentation down to 30 minutes?" That happens, I'm going to say that probably happens, and I'm not exaggerating 90-plus percent of the time that's what will happen. And then you smile and you go, "Absolutely, no problem." You don't throw a fit because now you just know, "I'm going to cut a few songs out of my playlist and I'm going to get it down to 30." Whereas if you design a 45-minute presentation that has a beginning and a middle, and then I'm going to tell them what I'm going to tell them, I'm going to tell them and I'm going to tell them what I'm told them, the old Dale Carnegie speech stuff, which is just dead and done now, that doesn't work. Because now what do you? Do you tell the promoter, "No, I'm sorry. My presentation is 45 minutes. I have to do 45." Topher: No, what'll end up happening is you go, "Okay," and then you're like, "How do I speak really fast to get it done?" And then you end up going over and you piss off the promoter and they never bring you back. So yeah, take your best stories out of your book, make a list of all the different lessons or takeaways that could come from them. Create your vignette book, which is all a different story. And by the way, you might have five different stories for one point. That's okay too because you know what? They might have loved that point so much you need to drive it home again, and then you have another story as well. But that's the most time-consuming and professional way to build a speech from a book. Take your best stories, pull out the takeaways, build it based upon the takeaways and the time. Anna: And is it have a 10-minute, a 20-minute, and a 40-minute version? Do you think that's- Topher: No. I think you should just have 30-second to five-minute vignettes. And then when somebody books you, you go, "Oh, I got a 15-minute speech? I'm going to pull out my three best five-minute vignettes," or, "I'm going to pull out my four best three and a half-minute vignettes." And then you just add them up that way. Yeah. If you do it that way, you'll be golden. But that takes practice. It takes preparation. And unfortunately, most people... And by the way, this is just the mark between a professional speaker and a professional who speaks, there's a difference there. The professional who speaks is working on their slide presentation the night before. The professional speaker doesn't even deal with slides because he knows that they're a hassle and is going to entertain the audience with their stories anyway. Topher: So a couple of other things. The biggest misconception that I think people make that aren't professional speakers that have been asked to speak and it's their first keynote presentation and they're nervous about it, they think that they need to wow the audience with all of this great information and you're going to change their minds and their hearts and their lives with this dialogue. I think getting in perspective what it is that the keynote speaker does is very helpful. Your job, in my opinion, and I think if you were to talk to most professional speakers, people who run the circuit and they do this for a living, I think that most would probably agree, your job is not to change their lives in 45 minutes. Your job is to entertain the crap out of them for 45 minutes. Get them to laugh, get them to cry, get them to feel, get them to emote. Entertain them for 45 minutes. Don't try to change their lives. Topher: Which means you don't need a bunch of slides. You don't need a bunch of bullet points. You're not teaching them strategies and techniques and steps and processes. You're simply telling them stories and entertaining them. And if you do that, think about entertainment, emotion, don't worry about the content, don't worry about having them walk away with three successful strategies. Most people aren't taking notes anyway. Remember, they didn't even know who you were five minutes before you got on stage. So don't think that they're sitting there with baited breath and a pen and paper going, "Entertain me with your amazing words." They're just not going to be there. And I will say this, these smartphones have become the world's best feedback tool for speakers, because you will know exactly how good you are as a speaker based upon how many blue lights you see, glowing faces from the audience. Because they'll be on their phone. If you can see phones lighting up, you know you've lost them. Because they're, "Ah, screw this guy. I'm going to check my text messages now." And so they start- Anna: That's the worst. Topher: It is the worst. Yeah. Anna: But, speaking of the phone, I will say what I do to prep is I do it into my phone, then I listen, then I do practice again, then I listen again, then I practice again, then I listen again. I find listening when I'm practicing really, really as helpful as the practice. Topher: Yeah, absolutely. Now I will tell you this, by the way, technology has made our job so much easier as well. There's a difference between... By the way, as an author, everybody knows this, the typed word is different than the spoken word. If you just transcribe audio into a book, it's an average book. I hope I don't offend some of your readers, your listers. Anna: Yeah, they know that. Topher: Yeah. Don't transcribe your work. It just doesn't sound... It doesn't translate. Well, guess what? It doesn't translate the other way as well. You don't want to sit there and recite or memorize your book because that's not human speech as well. But I do believe that there is a need for a script when you're starting your presentation in your rehearsal. So one of the best strategies right now is to use otter.ai, I think is that software. Holy heck, that thing is incredibly good. So just hit record, start telling your stories and talking, and then it'll transcribe for you. And then you go through. And the strategy that I like is to take three highlighters, a green highlighter, a yellow highlighter, and a red highlighter. Topher: And I go through the script after it's been transcribed, and I read through and I highlight red, yellow, green, red is unnecessary dribble, yellow is, "I like it if I have time," and green is, "This is so good I have to keep it in the presentation." And go through the entire speech and just highlight it red, yellow, green, red, yellow, green. And if you're like me and you're being honest, you'll have mostly red, a lot of yellow, and just a few greens. When you're just talking a story out, it'll take 20 minutes sometimes. And you can edit that down to a two-minute story if you give it the time and the attention that it needs, for sure. Anna: So great. We have to get close to wrapping up. So how do you sell that book from the stage without sounding douchey? Topher: Yeah. Okay. I learned this technique from a guy named Tom Antion. He is one of the few people that when he sends me spam email, I read it because the man just generally makes me laugh. His sales copy is just hilarious. And this was his technique. In fact, I think he had a presentation called How to Sell from the Stage Without Being a Douchebag, I think is what it was called. I was like, "I love this guy already." Here's the technique. You have on stage your book, but you're not going to hold it up and say it's for sale or anything like that. All you do is you take one small piece from your book which is a really golden gem, and you just pick it up and you go, "Let me just read something for you real quick." And then you open it and you just read 2, 3, 4 lines, that's it. And just read it, and you set it down. You can say, "I just want to read something from my book." You can say that. But you just read it. Topher: But you're not saying it's for sale. You're not saying it's $29.95, but today you can buy a copy for $10. You don't say any of that stuff. You just read one paragraph out of your book and then you set it down, respectfully, it's a nice piece of art. Set it down. Yep. Don't just throw it off to the side. Set it down. And then you continue with your presentation. That's it. That's all you do. You just read one small... And what happens is people get obsessed. They're like, "I loved what he just read," and they make this assumption, "The rest of the book must be just as good." And they want to buy it. Yeah. And I will tell you, literally, I saw my book sales, I'm not exaggerating, they probably jumped 60%, maybe more. I remember calling Tom going, "Tom, you are a genius. I tried that." And every person I've told that to, they do this technique and they're like, "People were running into the back to buy my book." I'm like, "Yeah, I can't even really explain it other than I think they feel that was so profound, the rest of the book must be just as profound." Anna: And you're doing that thing where you're closing the loop, like how marketing people will talk about how you sort of give the first part so that people are psychologically very invested in whatever the ending is. Topher: Yeah. Well actually, let's talk about that. Because once again, going back to the biggest mistake people make because they want to give, give, give, give, give, just give so much value, so much content, so much information, if you have 10 steps to transforming your life, don't try to talk about all 10 steps. But here's what you could do. You could say something like this. You could say something to the effect of, "For the past 25 years, I've been trying to narrow down what it takes to succeed in speaking into the most succinct, small, and easy to get patterns. And I've discovered that there are five things, that if every speaker does these five things, they will hands down get standing ovations, sell books at the back of the room without having to sell it. And out of those five, here's the one that I want to talk about today." Anna: Oh, that's so good. Topher: Right. And now, you didn't say, "But we don't have time to go through all," or you say, "Here's five, but I'm only going to give you one today. But if you want to buy the others, you can." No, you just say, "There are five things. And here's the one that I think is the most relevant today." You make it like, "I picked this one just for you guys." And what a beautiful open loop. They want to know what the other ones are. And by the way, maybe that chapter one, that's that good thing, the big, whatever your 10 steps are, that's the one you... Be the good one. Anna: Well, Topher, this has been absolutely fantastic. Tell people how they can reach you. And this is reaching you for help converting their book into a speech as well as help training. Topher: Yeah, sure. They can go to tophermorrison.com. That's probably the easiest way to do it. Tophermorrison.com. Yeah. And I have a book on public speaking. It's called The Book on Public Speaking. I get to say I wrote the book on public speaking. Not being self-aggrandizing, it's just the name of the book. It's called The Book on Public Speaking. So they can go to their Amazon and get that if they want to as well. Yeah. But listen, I've got tons of YouTube videos for free. Listen, they don't have to buy anything. They can get a lot of my stuff for free. They just go to YouTube and search for my name. Anna: Except of course, by giving out these gems, you were doing exactly what you advise people to do in a speech, which is giving the gem so that they go, "Well, God, booking him and reading that book must just be even better."  Topher: Listen, hey, I'm a squirrel trying to get a nut just like everybody else. So I'd be honored if somebody feels so inspired and they would like to do business with me. I would love that. But believe me, I'm just here because I think the world of you. I remember meeting you so many years ago and had such a blast with you. For you to reach back out to me so many years, I was just like, "Oh, this just made my day." I was just thrilled that you reached out. You made my day. Anna: You're the best. Thank you so much for doing this. And you know, you listeners, thank you so much for listening. I will talk to you next week. RELATED EPISODES How Do I Use My Book to Get Speaking Gigs? How to Get on Podcasts to Promote Your Book with John Corcoran Jess Lahey on Influencer Endorsements and Much More

INTRODUCTION:Entwine was developed by Anna, a breast cancer survivor, for people with a low sex drive, celibates, and those who avoid sex due to physical pain.Because of her treatment, sex became uncomfortable both physically and emotionally. After her divorce, she found it difficult and intimidating to re-enter the dating scene out of fear of rejection from those that may not understand her situation.  She soon realized that many of the dating apps available had similarities; none of them offered an opportunity to find someone who had similar sexual limitations.She found herself in a space that she soon discovered many others were in – single and looking for companionship.  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):·      A Dating App for People with Sexual Dysfunction·      Broken Vaginas·      Surviving Breast Cancer·      Erectile Dysfunction·      The Struggles of Starting an App·      Self Esteem Related to Sexual Limitations·      Sexual Implications for Veterans·      The Value Men Place on Sexual Performance·      Reassessing Our Value Systems CONNECT WITH ANNA: Website: https://www.entwinedating.comFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/entwinedatingIG: https://www.instagram.com/entwine_dating/Twitter: https://twitter.com/entwinedatingYouTube: https://bit.ly/3J552FzLinkedIn: https://bit.ly/3uqBdLk  CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonEmail: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS:·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com ·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org ·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?:·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon TRANSCRIPT:[00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Hello hello. Hello everyone. And welcome to another installment of the sex, drugs and Jesus podcast. I'm your host. De'Vannon Hubert. And I am so thankful that you are with me again on today. So on today's episode, I'm talking with a woman by the name of Anna Leonarda. She's a breast cancer survivor, and she's gifted the world with a dating app called Entwine that's E N T W I N E. Now this app is for those who may not be able to, or prefer not to fully engage in sexual intercourse.[00:01:00] Now we all know what a big deal sexual dysfunction is in the world today. You know, sometimes our bodies just don't do what we want them to do. Now, in this episode, we're going to talk about. Sexual implications for veterans, we're talking about how self-esteem can be related to sexual limitations. And we're also going to cover things like the value men and place on sexual performance, which is a huge deal in and of itself.Pay close attention to this episode, stay tuned because I think you're going to get a lot out of it.Anna uh, you bad-ass bitch shoe. Are you today? Anna: Perfect. How are you doingDe'Vannon: I'm fam fucking tastic. My new year is off to a phenomenal fucking start. My health is great. My wealth is great. My mind is great. My cats are great. My boyfriend's great. My gardens. Great. Everything's great. Anna: Great [00:02:00] Great to hear.De'Vannon: So I was looking forward to this here episode because we are going to talk about vaginas in. How they can be broken and everything. And you created a dating app called in twine, which we're going to really get into. And of course, all of this information will be in the show we notes as they always are. You created an app specifically centered for people who have a sexual dysfunction. Be it, be it men with erectile dysfunction women with, as you coin, it broke vaginas. She said that I can say that so she can get away with it. Anna: Yeah.De'Vannon: And so, so it's a really cool app that you've made in a service that you're now offering to the public. But before we go down that delicious path, and we're going to talk about you, you, you, you, you, and what led you to this here. And so any opening words you have for the world. Anna: Just [00:03:00] get ready for my broken vagina story. definitely unique.De'Vannon: So I say, well, wait, so we've got to work in, reverse it for a little bit. So I read about when I was researching you or read that you had you're a breast cancer survivor. Anna: Yes.De'Vannon: So I want you to talk to me about what the emotions were like, like, walk me through your emotions. When you found out you got this diagnosis, do you remember where you were. Anna: Yeah, I was actually, well, when I found the breast lump, I was in the shower. I was 36 years old and I just, right prior to that, I lost like 18 pounds willingly. So I was like, finally, I look, this is the weight I want to be at. I feel great. I look great. I felt confident for a change. And so then I was in the shower and I happened to have a bar soap in my hand.And I was, I happened to cross off a lump on my breast and I thought, well, this is weird. It's never been there before, but I mean, because I lost my weight, that's where I found it, but that's why I found it. And and [00:04:00] I was just like, well, it's probably nothing. And I worked at, in the pathology department at, at the time as a secretary.So I thought, well, you know, most people that come in there, they're older that get diagnosed with breast cancer or any kind of cancer. So. The next day I got went to the gynecologist and just a couple of months prior to that, she was telling me I needed to get a mammogram. She's like, you know, you're 30, 30, 6 now.You need to start thinking about getting a mammogram and mats. I don't need to do that. I'm too young. So so when I went to her, she was like, well, yeah, it feels like a lump is probably nothing, but so long story short, I ended up getting the biopsy and and I had to wait a whole seven days for the results and was psychotic.I mean, I kind of had an idea of something was up because the people that I'm friends with in the pathology department were like, are you doing okay, honey? I'm like, yeah, I'm fine. Why? Well, you know, w just wondering, and, and so it was a lot of emotions coming through. Cause I was like, wait, is something wrong with me?Cause why are there being so sweet to me now? You know? So [00:05:00] it was a lot of paranoia going on too. Isn't it? That, well, maybe I do have cancer. And and one of my friends is like, you know, you need to call your doctor. It's just, these results are not good because she couldn't give me the results because you just knew I was like freaking out.And so yeah, I had breast cancer. I was like, whoa. I mean, it was on my mom's 60th birthday. I was at her house celebrating her birthday. And I didn't tell her that I even had a biopsy. Cause I thought, man, it's nothing. Anyway. So yeah, it was a little, little shocking. And then I ended up getting ended up having actually three tumors in my left breast, which was just like, I had no idea I had cancer.I thought I felt great. I looked great. I didn't feel sick. You know, I didn't look sick. And so it's definitely very life-changingDe'Vannon: Was there a family history there of the Panther or. Anna: but my one cousin had it when she was in her thirties, but that's it like, there was like, no, no cancer at all that I know of in my family. Lucky me. Yay. [00:06:00]De'Vannon: Well, all things happened. Where were you the Monday? How were you able to, so you said you're cancer-free as of today. Anna: Yes. Nine years.De'Vannon: So how were you able to overcome that? Anna: Well, I had to have multiple surgeries and six, six surgeries to be exact with mastectomies, double mastectomy, and then also reconstruction surgery. And my cancer was fed by estrogen. So the goal is to get all the estrogen out of my body, which can cause low sex drive. And so I had to go through chemotherapy.I lost all my hair and and then, because I wanted to get rid of all my estrogen, I decide to have a total hysterectomy as well. So, so I was forced into menopause at a young age. So a little was a little hard on my body, but but I managed to where the chemo wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, which was helpful because I had two young kids at the time and I still wanted to be a mom.I didn't want to. To suffer and or show anybody that I was [00:07:00] struggling. I felt like I was supporting everybody else around me or reassuring them because they're crying all around me. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. I'm so sad for you. And so I'm like, no, it's okay. I'll be all right. I'm patting him on the shoulder and I'm like, wait a minute.I'm supposed to be comforting me. But so I was pretty strong through the whole thing. I don't think I've ever really dealt with my emotions with with all the cancer stuff that I had to go through, but, but it, but I went through, I was determined to beat it. I wanted to be there for my kids. And here I am.SoDe'Vannon: Well, congratulations, bitch. Anna: thank you.De'Vannon: I'm glad to have you here now. Okay. So you mentioned that your cancer that you.used to have was fed by estrogen. So in order to defeat that It caused you to have a low sex drive. Once the cancer was gone, that your sex drive.Anna: It didn't. So I actually lost my second. I actually never really had a sex drive, to be honest with you. So when I, when I grew up, I had something called [00:08:00] endometriosis and that causes painful intercourse, which eventually led to lack of libido. And then so I have always struggled with low beetle. So the chemo and the treatment, everything made it even worse.Cause there was more, even more pain and, and dryness involved.De'Vannon: Okay. Anna: my, vagina broke before my chemo, before my cancer,De'Vannon: Right. So, cause when I was research and you are read that something happened after you had your second child in what do you think it, do you think it was a stress of the pregnancy that kind of like pushed your body over the edge or. Anna: as far as the, the broken vagina thing or the the cancer.De'Vannon: Well, no, as far as the broken vagina thing, like what happened after you had the second child? Because I was reading about it in your blog, you were saying like you had your second child, like something changed like in your body. Was it, did it everything become more painful then, or. Anna: It was always painful. So I [00:09:00] think with the endometriosis, it, it was always, since it was always painful over time, my vagina was just like, get the hell away from me, whatever it's coming at me. So, so I ended up trying, I was trying to have intercourse with my, my ex-husband and and it was like, nothing would go in there.It was like, it was like hitting a wall. I'm like, what the heck is going on with me? So I went to the doctor and she said well, you have vaginismus. And I'm like, what the heck is that? And she's like, well, you're the opening of your vagina is it's just as fascinating mean because it's probably just anticipating the pain that it's just.It's it's that's this natural reaction is to just kind of spasm up and not allow anything to, to enter there. And so I was supposed to go through physical therapy or pelvic floor therapy, and that involved, like using these dilators where I had to slowly stretch the vaginal opening, which is a long process and not, not pleasurable for sure. And it's like, the size of the pinky is the first [00:10:00] side of the dilator. And then once you're comfortable with that, then you move up to the next size and then you just keep graduating to the largest size, which has Godzilla, which I would never use because it's like, I don't want to size, it was just enormous.I didn't know how to explain it. So I just call it Godzilla size. So I just put that in the drawer way in the back. We've covered up. So, so I asked the therapist, why does this happen? And she said, well, it's your body's natural reaction because what's happening is if somebody comes up to you repeatedly and starts punching you in the stomach, once that person approaches you, you're going to start flinching and your muscles are going to tighten.And you're going to kind of back up to avoid that pain. Vince is patient of the pain. So she's so I said, so basically my vagina broke. So that's the easy way of saying it has my vagina broke. So yeah, so that's what I was doing. Those, those, I did the treatments for a little bit. And then again, it was just like very, it was a very slow process.So there's a cure for it. I just chose not to do it. And then when I got breast cancer, I didn't even want to think about using my dilators. My oncologist is like, [00:11:00] well, this is estrogen fed. Your libido is going to be non-existent for a while. I'm like, well, it already is. I mean, I don't even know how much, how much more, how much more possible is it going to be worse, but it was, it got even more dry and.De'Vannon: How did that cause. and.when all of this was going on. Anna: Yeah, I met my ex-husband when I was in eighth grade. And then, so he was my one and only, and I was, we were married for 20 years. We got divorced three years ago.De'Vannon: So how did, can you talk to me about the sort of stress that this caused in your marriage when you were going through. Anna: It was, he was patient. I just feel like it was, it was hard for me because I, I just, I felt like I was always making up excuses, like trying to stay up, let him fall asleep first. So I had to avoid it. So I, that probably didn't help the marriage at all. And eventually, you know, the level of intimacy kind of diminished in all ways, [00:12:00] because it was just something I always had to deal with.So it was never really said that it was in the back of my head. I feel like that's one of the reasons why definitely that you kind of. Distance distance ourselves. But so yeah, it definitely takes a toll.De'Vannon: So you're so it's a, you were saying like, okay, so intercourse is painful. Anything that you would certainty your vagina hurt? So I was reading where even a tampon, trying to put a tampon in there is like, was like super, super painful. So this is this pain exclusive to anything penetrating the vagina or what about that?Anna: trulyDe'Vannon: And external stimulation does that hurt too with these medical conditions? Anna: after the, I guess it's not as enjoyable, enjoyable as it probably should be, but after all my surgeries, it's more like just, I'd rather not [00:13:00] any kind of contact right now or ever, I guess I should say so. It's, it's just very sensitive and not in a good way. So.De'Vannon: Interesting. Okay. So. Then this, so we can shift gears from here and to entwine. So.I want you to tell us what your motivation was for creating this, this, this dating app. And this is spelled E N T w I N E. And also want to know what this name means and how you came up with that. Anna: Sure. As far as the name of why I called it in twine, I was going to call it, going to call it comfortable companions. And I was told by many that, that sounds like diapers. So don't do that. I'm like, oh my God, I guess it's probably hard to remember comfortable companions though. So so the, the app developers I did use, they ended up giving me a bunch of options of what I should use.And then when they set [00:14:00] in twine and I'm like, well, I in twining hearts people's lives together or whatever the heck. So I thought, yeah. And twine sounds good. So it's not a very exciting story. That's why we called it in.De'Vannon: Okay. So Was all the, all your medical conditions and things going on with your body, your motivation for starting this app and like how your marriage into what, tell me in your own words, why you wanted to go through the, the the rigor Moreau, because y'all starting an app. Isn't just as simple as like making like a Gmail account, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's complex as fuck.And it takes a lot of time, money, resources, and dedication. So this is not like it's not just like simple to start an app, especially something like this as a dating app is running algorithms and all of that. Why did you want to go through all of the painstaking tasks that you had to go through to bring this app, this app to fruition?Anna: So when I was married, [00:15:00] my girlfriends would go on traditional dating apps and I would say, Hey, how was your date? And they're like, you know, I mean, every guy in meat so far has ed and rocked all this function. And I was like, how old are they? Well, they're in their thirties or they're in their forties. And I'm like, well, what are the reasons why they have that?And, and they would say like, well, one of them has diabetes and other one might have antidepressants that he's taking or prostate surgery or whatever the reason is. And and I thought, well, why don't you save their numbers so that when I'm, if I'm ever divorced, you know, I'll go, I'll date them.Because if I, I thought to myself, if ever, if I'm ever single, I'd rather either just be single forever, because I thought to have to have that stress of wondering, you know, if that person could understand that I don't want to have intercourse. So I'm like, I'll just either stay single or I'd rather deal with guy with ed.So I'm like, there should be like a. Dating app for guys with EDD. And then I remember talking about it and then I'd let, let left it alone. Dropped it. And then I don't know, eight years later, that's when I got divorced and I thought [00:16:00] again, I'm like, I think I'm going to be single. I don't want to be with anybody.No, one's going to understand this. They're going to cheat on me. They're to they're not, they're not going to get it. And so then I thought, well, that's not fair for what the heck. I I've been through all this stuff for, there's a reason why I went through all this. And the reason I thought at first was to help people go and tell my friends, if you know anybody that's going through a cancer scare has breast cancer, whatever it is, Kevin can reach out to me.And that's what I would do. I would talk to people I'm like, no, I need to do something more. So I thought, what about these guys that have ed? How many times, you know, are they going to get rejected before they just give up? And so I thought I need to do something about it. So that's why I decided to create a dating app for it.Cause I thought. I want to help more people. It's not just me though that I want to help some, I'm still single. I'm not using the dating app yet, but eventually I will just want to kind of focus on getting the app established and getting more users. But so then I thought, well, I gotta do this. And I was a stay at home mom.I worked part-time as a, at the [00:17:00] time I got diagnosed, I was a secretary at pathology, but then then I was a stay-at-home mom and I also worked part-time as a medical transcriptionist. So I thought I have no business background and my, what am I going to do? How am I going to figure all this out? So I started doing some research and I found an app company that took like extreme advantage of me, meaning they stole a lot of money from me because I didn't know anything about business and they knew it and they wanted they want an equity in my app right away.So I was like, no, I said, I don't know, maybe like, well, we'll give you a discount services. And, and I, you know, it sounded great at the time because I was running out of money. So I used all my savings and and, and I thought, well, they don't want equity because they care about my app. They care about people.They want equity cause they wanna make money. So I decided to tell them, no, I don't want equity. I don't want you to have equity. And then after that, everything went downhill and stupid errors and glitches and oh, you want to fix, you want to put a notification on the envelope, [00:18:00] say you have a match.Okay. That's gonna cost you something like this functionality, you know, it was like stuff like that. So everything went downhill. And so I ended up taking the code and leaving and I was like I said, I'm done. I have no more money. I can't do this anymore. And then I thought this is not, this is not right. I mean, I thought I was going to give up.And but I couldn't cause I'm like this again. Why did I go through all this? It's not because I'm for me to just get taken advantage of and quit. I'm not gonna let anybody take my dream. So so I found another app guy and he was he's great. And he yeah. Took care of it, of the professional of the cost.And, now we're live end of August of last year.De'Vannon: Girl, you think I'm right. You don't let anybody take your dream. It's it's a fucking hassle when you, when you fall into the den of vultures like that, and it happens to all of us it's happened to me. But you know, I would encourage people who were trying to start businesses or apps or whatever, you know, to keep [00:19:00] trying. But you know, now there's websites out there like Upwork free up where you can hire people from all sorts of. Th technological backgrounds. And the beautiful thing is those websites will act as an intermediary and they hold the money. So that, that other person doesn't get paid until the work is done and it's done.Right. And they negotiate everything for you so that you don't have the fuckery, like what you went through and everything like that. I've been through that myself and it can be discouraging. I had issues like that with started my podcast and writing my first book. You know, but you just got to keep on doing it, like, like what you said, but my God, you just want to strangle the people who took advantage of you. Anna: Yeah.Even like I just found out recently, I was looking at, there was these graphics that they created. They said they created. And I remember saying, oh, can you change the graphics a little bit? And they're like, well, they're custom hand drawn graphics. So it's going to take some time off to give you another estimate.[00:20:00]And this was what it's supposed to in 2019. They use them and I just found out from another dating app that just got launched. I was just downloaded it just to look at it. And I found one of my graphics on her app. So like that wasn't custom, they told me it was hand drawn and it wasn't even the stuff like that.I was like, how could someone, how could a company be like that? You know, for me, it's just frustrating. Just I knowDe'Vannon: You got them out there, honey, but you knowwhat? We don't move forward. Anna: that's right. I know I got to stop looking at the past. That's my problem is I keep going back anymore.De'Vannon: You know, it's, it's good too, for the purposes of like, say this interview to talk about that so that other people can know that they are technological solutions and safeguards to this now. So, but yeah, when we were alone and thinking, I fall into that trap too, sometimes of like anger might rise up in me, then I try to, you know, I gotta realign myself and focus on what is working and not let those people [00:21:00] take my joy anymore. Anna: Exactly. I'm tired of people taking my joy. So De'Vannon: Not no more. Anna: that's right.De'Vannon: So so let's get more granular and let's dig into exactly the uniqueness of entwine. Tell me like the typical male person who's going to be on here. Typical female person are there. Trans people and I saw them there. They're like two guys kissing and everything like that. So I know it's LGBTQ plus friendly.So what are like the sex options and all the sexual orientation options that you have. Anna: So, because the app is very basic because of funding. So I had to start off with. then are you interested in male, female or both? So that's what we have for now, but my goal is to have it available for everybody because that's how it should be. And just because of costs, unfortunately, I wasn't able to, to expand on that, but that's my that's one [00:22:00] of my main goals is to do that.De'Vannon: Okay. So then within the. Within the parameters that.you have established, give you an example of the sort of guy who would come on, come on your app and the sort of girl what's it going on in their life? Are you seeing certain income ranges, certain typical occupations? Just, just give me an example of a male or female and female profile. Anna: So since the app ended up launching the end of August, there's not a ton of users. That's probably get into that later where how it's very hard to get a hold of users that are that have sexual limitations. But it's so when. I noticed that the ones that I do have, so they had to put down, if they're male, female, then they still had to say their, their age, their location.Do they smoke? Do they drink? And do they have kids? So it's very basic, but of course down the road, it'll be more more of an algorithm that filter. So And I noticed that the feud that I had signed up, I'm actually friends with them. And [00:23:00] then I'm like, do you have sexual dysfunction? There was one guy that signed up and he's like, no, I don't, but I just, I'm tired of meeting these women that it's all they want.And I'm okay with not having intercourse. I rather, because they think they're okay with other floors and intimacy and they're okay with not having intercourse. I don't say sex cause it could be oral or whatever. So and then the same thing with the women. They're like, I'm just tired of these guys. You know, they're just, that's all they ever do is, you know, that's all they want.And so I have a few women that sign up that they didn't, they don't have that issue and they just did because they, they want something different work, more of that emotional connection rather than the physical. So so it's, it's a variety for now. I don't know that occupations or anything like that yet.Cause it's not in there and they can type as much as they want in the about me sections. They don't have to say what their limitations are until they meet the person. So there's no pressure there because of. I probably mean myself. I tell everybody my vagina's broken, but there might be someone else.They went through sexual trauma. They may not want to put that in that, in that [00:24:00] description.De'Vannon: So then it sounds like not, oh, intimacy is off the table. So it sounded like people who are sexually able can go on here. They are open-minded to being with people who are not sexually. Abel. And then even within the realms of both, they might be other things they can get into Anna: Right.De'Vannon: exactly what sex is, not the sin, sin, sin, central focus. Anna: Exactly.De'Vannon: So what, so there was a statement that I read that you wrote in and said that no one really thinks about people that can't, that can't have intercourse. Can you, and I feel like that that's a, that's a huge motivating factor into why that, that did you create this app in order to create an inclusive space For people who have sexual dysfunction? So can you walk me through some of like the emotions that maybe you and people, you know, who are, who are suffering from sexual dysfunction, this [00:25:00] isolation that it seems like you talk about because it almost seems like there's a feeling of being discarded or are devalued here.Anna: For example, when I I'm in a couple of erectile dysfunction, Facebook support groups, and there'll be men on there and there. I don't know why I'm living anymore. I'm going to be single forever. No, one's going to accept me for my issue. And I'm like, I don't want to, I want to jump on there and be like, no, don't think that there's people out there like women like myself that don't mind if you have a broken Dick.I mean, I guess I could say that, right. Because I have a broken vagina. Right. De'Vannon: You can say anything you. want, girl, they all. Anna: So I can't really comment because I don't want to get kicked out of the cause they say, oh, you're promoting your abalone, my ups free, but, okay. So, and they don't know that they're, that they have these options and, and then there's all these women that have the same thing where there are in my breast cancer group.So the vaginismus groups, it was like 17,000 women in the vaginismus groups. And like how many people have a broken vagina that couldn't believe it? [00:26:00] And the ones that are saying like I'm just going to stay with my husband because. No one else is going to want to be with me. I can't have sex and throw in like an abusive relationship and they don't, they don't want to go anywhere else.And and guys that cheat and say rude things to them. And, and I thought, that's, this is why my app has made. And, and then I started hearing some cruel comments myself, and it made me think like this, this app is needed because the regular traditional dating apps don't think about, they don't cater to people that have sexual limitations.That's like a given it's like, okay, after the third, fourth date, we're probably going to have sex. And imagine that pressure of a guy or a girl, it's a think like, when am I going to tell this person that I can have intercourse? You know, are they going to make fun of me? Are they going to reject me my own?Be embarrassed. That's a lot of pressure. And, and for me, I, I did this right away. So if I started meeting I started since I started, since I got divorced, I started going out more and I started meeting men and. [00:27:00] Hey, you have kind of your number you want to go to for dinner. I'm like, well, let me tell you about the dating app I created.And then I started telling him about my issue and the variety of answers are pretty insensitive. So it just, again, confirms that there needs to be something like in twine to be like a safe, comfortable spot for people that have these limitations to find companionship. But when I told this guys this, but my broken vagina though, like w w a few of, several of them said well, you have other holes do like anal.I'm like, well, first of all, I don't even know you for you to even ask me that is just for going rude. But, and I said, you have other holes. It's like, really that's really classy. And also and our, I hear like, well, you know, the perfect reason why a guy wouldn't want to be with you. It was a good one, too, you know?And you have, you should never get married. You should never have a boyfriend because you'll never make them happy because you can't have sex. I'm like, it's just horrible. [00:28:00] But it's been for me, I I'm strong enough to handle it. I wasn't like crying, but eventually like a sensitive woman that just got sexually assaulted and then she knows or whatever, however, history of it.And then she hears that. I mean, that's horrible to, you may not never want to go on the dating scene again. At least I wouldn't have, you know, but I'm just prepared to you're thinking really hard. I could see it. I could hear it. I could see the wheels spinning.De'Vannon: Well, yeah. You're giving me a lot to think about, and I'm absolutely feasting on this, on this knowledge over here, there's so much. So much pain and what you're talking about in so much rejection and so much fear of rejection, and nobody deserves to live like that. It's, it's reminding me of when I first contracted HIV and hepatitis a B, and I was thinking the same thing, like, okay, who was going to want to be with me now? At what point do I tell them this? You know, how does this go? And, you know, you see now, [00:29:00] like on the, on the dating apps now, especially the gay dating apps you can put on there, whether or not you're HIV positive undetectable already. So, but at first it was, I liked that, but, you know, and you had to determine a point, but now you can put it on there.And so, you know, anybody who responds back to you or who reaches out to you as you know, that they're okay with that. But I understand what it's like to have that fear of, okay. Are they gonna want to keep me around after I tell them this is a weakness about me, you know, or not. And so You know, some people are like totally cool with dating someone who has HIV and some people want to head for the Hills and everything like that. And, and it sounds like it's the same thing that's going on in the sexual dysfunction world. Now I want to say, fuck you to all the assholes out there, like the people who were taught, who, who, who were talking to you and yet, you know, women do have other holes, but there is a class that your way to, to bring up because, you know, on the one hand, you know, if you're talking about sexual [00:30:00]dysfunction, the holes that can not be used, that conversation is on the table.And so yes, assholes can be asked about, but it could be done, you know, a little bit more class or something like that. You know, it like, Anna: Moved down the road and be like on the fourth day maybe or something that I didn't even go on a date yet. I was already asking about my whole holes.De'Vannon: That's a smooth question. Like, you know, lo Hey, well, what else might you be interested in? And, you know, and then just let you answer it. And if they're answered it and come up with, then they can assume that this is off limits. Anna: would be nicer, but yeah, and my girlfriends they're like, why don't you, why don't you wait to tell the guy that you have your broken vagina issue? And I said, well, why so I can just like, get emotionally attached because I get, I seem to get more emotionally attached to anything. Cause it's, it's I don't want to wait until I'm like four dates in and then all of a sudden I'd be like, oh, I really liked this guy.Oh, by the way, I have the sister. And then, then he says, oh, you have other holes. I'll be like, I couldn't, I kind of handle that. But if there's no emotional connection yet or attachment, [00:31:00]then I'd rather them know then and have to have them make a decision right at the time. Cause we usually, when I think, well, 99% of them that I did talk to they're like we never went on a date actually.I'd never been on a date. So since I've been divorced cause. Seeing the find the guy that is just like, I'm not, I mean, looking though I should say, but even if it's just like, I don't want them to convince themselves that they don't need intercourse either, because that's another thing they might do that like, well, I guess I don't need any more.I, you know, I'm going to have a bunch of heavy D myself probably, you know? So I think no don't convince yourself because then in the back of my head, it's going to be like, either I need to fix my vaginismus, it's treatable, but I don't want to fix it for me. I'd rather fix it for myself and somebody else.So it's a.De'Vannon: Well open relationships with something that I don't think It should be off the table, really like ever, but especially, [00:32:00] you know, in this sort of situation, because like, like an open relationships, you know, if, if you have like two people who are in a couple and they allow each other to have sexual experiences with other people, given whatever their rules and boundaries might be, it oftentimes doesn't include any sort of emotional exchange with whoever the extra people are going to be.And so I could see that. And I'm curious what your, what your opinion is you know, on this. So if you have say like one person who is sick, that's able to have sex in other one, who's not really, really enjoyed each other's company and companionship about letting the person who can have sex, maybe have that sex with someone else, you know, but actually building like your core life with, you know, the one person who can have sex in the one person who can not, what are your thoughts on that?Anna: I think for me, that's I wouldn't be able to handle it. I know there's, there's a lot of individuals that can do that, but I feel like if somebody's [00:33:00] intimate like that, having sex, that there's gotta be some kind of connection there or some kind of emotional connection in my head. But like if I was with somebody now, that's just like, like if I, for my, for my ex husband, I just said, well, you can't have sex with me.So go somewhere else and get somewhere else. I was still like, that would really bother me. And so I want to be able to handle that, but I'm sure there's couples out there. There are people out there that would be okay with it. But for me, it's just something that I want to be able to, to live with.De'Vannon: Right. It is about being true to yourself. And I agree with.every sexual exchange, there is some level of mental, spiritual, and emotional transacting that does happen. You know, so it's just about what, what works for you and what doesn't. I just wanted to put that out there as a possible option. Now I wanted to talk about the self-esteem issues that I'm picking up on here and that I'm hearing in what you're saying, because you've mentioned like, some people are, who have sexual dysfunction are in [00:34:00] abusive relationships with people who are able to have sex.And so you think that people are maybe staying in this abusive situation because of low self-esteem. What, what, what sort of self-esteem issues have you seen. Anna: Well, I think there was the woman. I did talk to that. Her neighbor actually. So I haven't talked to that to a woman, but she said I talked about my app and she's like, you know, my neighbor, she's her, husband's mostly abusive. And she had breast cancer and she's like button hysterectomy. And she had chemotherapy, all that stuff that I had.And, and she's like, and I said, well, why is she in the relationship? Then? She said, well, she said, she's, she's afraid to be alone. And she said that no guy is going to want to be with her because of all of her scars. And because she doesn't want to have sex, she's never going to find anybody like, so she's just going to stay married.And, and she's like, well, that's what she said. I'm like, well, tell her about my app because that's another thing too. I want to reach all these people that are married, that, or are in a relationship. To know that it's [00:35:00] you're, you, you probably won't be alone. You'd just rather to be alone anyway, then in an abusive relationship.But but when they have all these surgeries and on scars and everything, and not like I told them, I said, man, I don't have any nipples, you know? So that might freak a guy out if you saw that, you know? But and I didn't know that even the mastectomy had nipples removed too as well. So it can be heavily promoted, I should say.But, so that's why the most, the low self esteem, they just, they don't have that courage to leave their partner or even enter the dating scene because they have these, these scars or these sexual limitations. That's why I think a twine will help them because they don't, people seem to be more understanding.I think when they're on this app, because they know right away that the intercourse or sex is not this off the table or can be off the table.De'Vannon: So how many people do you have signed up total on there now? Anna: Seventy-five I know it's not the money. That's, that's, that's where my problem is, is getting the word out [00:36:00] because the majority of the users are female. Cause I think like the guys don't really want to talk about it. If they're more embarrassed about it and women are a little bit more vocal about it. I think if there's only like a few support groups for men with ed and there's all these women's issues and for breast cancer groups, vaginismus groups, there's other types of sexual dysfunction in women, that groups for that.But and then if I put like on Facebook, I'll put 'em on my personal page, like please share my app upon entwined. No, no guys like, like my posts, nobody wants to be associated with it because it's going to be like, well, that means that I have ed. I don't want anybody to know that. So we're thinking that.So we're getting the word out is pretty, pretty difficult, but it's available in the U S right now only my goal is to have it available worldwide. And I actually had a few different countries reach out to me, UK, Canada Pakistan, and even India. They, [00:37:00] they messaged me separately and like, why is your app only available in the us, please make it available in our country.We need this to, and, and it's, it's needed worldwide. There's estimated it's going to be 300 to 320 million men in the world are going to have ed by 20, 24. I think the statistics were it's a lot of men, so there's like 30 million men right now in the U S that have ed. So like, we're all these, all these, all these men that are single, these need to hear about and fine.Cause there's, there's even veterans that I was researching. Veterans, I kind of go off, I think about something and I start talking about something else, but these, these veterans there, they have PTSD possibly, or maybe they have depression and they're on these, these antidepressant meds. Or maybe they, they lost limbs during combat genitals, even, you know?So I thought, what about these individuals? How do they find companionship? [00:38:00] And then I started seeing that, you know, there is this high suicide rate for veterans and some of them, there's not an exact percentage, but they were just in, at their counselor's office during therapy and talking about how they're very alone and they don't know what to do.And they ended up committing suicide. So it was like, I want to save everybody. I want to see the veterans. I want to save cancer patients, even people that are not cancer patients, you know, it's just, it's, it's needed in all these different areas. Diabetic clinics. I mean, I didn't realize diabetes caused causes ed too, you know, so it's just a matter of reaching everybody.And it's just me trying to do this with social media marketing, everything I'm doing on my own. So it's a little slow process, but De'Vannon: Well,Anna: there.De'Vannon: well, as the Lord says in the Hebrew Bible says despise, not the day of small beginnings. And so, you know, every app had to start with an idea and with that first, first two signed up. So there's no shame. And [00:39:00] just having 75 people, you know, 75 today, a hundred thousand tomorrow, you know, the thing in business is to stay consistent time and pressure, you know, are two things. Anna: zero before, so somebody five minute, every, every week I'm like, oh, I got another user. I got another user and I get all excited De'Vannon: But yeah, I heard, I heard high blood pressure. You can call it the right time. Can calls, towel, dysfunction. There's all kinds of medications and diseases out there. For veterans though. Yeah. I'm, you know, me being a veteran myself, you know, guys. It's just a lot of stress and you come out of the military and even when you're in the military and stress can cause erectile dysfunction.There's so many things, you know, but you know, the, the, the, I recommend for you to reach out to the disabled the DAV disabled American veterans, and because that's a good association that helps veterans and all sorts of things, they send out, you know, like a monthly magazine, they have a great website, [00:40:00] you know, they may want to post that, re your resource on there and include it in their publications as the American Legion.There's all sorts of like veterans associations that That that, that, that are set up to help. And of course you have mental health clinics in the department of veterans affairs, medical centers worldwide. And so I would work with the DAV if I were you and see how you might, could help their veterans.And then even maybe get this posted in the, in the veterans, hospitals worldwide, and, you know, look into that. Cause the, the veterans health care system is huge. You know, there's veterans, hospitals, and then there's a little mini clinics in cities where there's not enough population to have a big hospital, but mental health just in veterans alone, if.It's like a big deal and a lot of all kinds of dysfunctions play. He goes, honey. And so, and the thing with veterans is there since we tend to be so broken, the, the, [00:41:00] the powers that be are that have to deal with us are always looking for some sort of help. You know, there's plenty of veterans who get prescribed like Viagra and Cialis and all of that and everything like that.And so I think, I think it'd be worth your time to look into going down that route. And then suicide. Yeah. You had, you had said something earlier about like a form you were in the guy who was like, I don't want to live anymore. And everything like that, men attach so much of their value and worth to sexual performance. Y and I know you're not a man, but you know, why do you think that is a, what, what thoughts do you have on that? Because it goes for some, for a guy to be like, you know what? I can't fuck. So I'm just going to kill myself, you know, that's, that's like, that's like kind of a big deal in terms of like how much he thinks to himself based on how hard his Dick can get, what he can do with it.Anna: I often wonder [00:42:00] myself. I mean like, okay, I can't have sex, but I don't want to kill myself. You know, it's just like, I'm just like, eh, whatever. But it's just like, I don't know if just like, just so like, I don't know what the word is. Not even embarrassing, but I mean, I don't know. They just attached to that thing.Huh? So manhood, I don't know. But even like couples that are like the guys that are on the EDI page, like, you know, my. Is understanding, or she's not understanding anymore and she's not, she wants to divorce me now. So when guys and girls, where girls have to, where they're just like, and I don't want to be with the guy with ed, like, so it's, it's hard.It's heartbreaking to see that though. There's there were several posts that I saw guys that are like, you know, I don't, why am I living anymore? And it's, I don't, I never reached out to them to ask them why, but why there was so like, [00:43:00] they just don't want to be alone. I think De'Vannon: They don't want to be alone. And they feel like they feel like no one will have them. If their Dick don't work. Anna: Yes.De'Vannon: Okay. So then what I think this speaks to is our need to, as a, as a, as a society to reevaluate our value system, our personal value system and w and what we will allow and how we accept value from other people.So. Okay. So that means that we gotta be sure that we're assessing our value, not based on what we can do, but just who we are. So that means every day that we wake up, we are incredible and wonderful and loving and deserving of love because that's the way God made us, you know, we're here. So whether we perform fantastically today on whatever the task is, be at work sex, whatever the hell it is that you do, or if you totally suck at it, that doesn't mean that you are a bad person.It just means that you are imperfect, which [00:44:00] is true. And that's something that we just got to get over and accept about ourselves. We're just not going to be able to do everything and do everything as good as we would want to. And then if somebody wants to reject us because of an imperfection, we'll then fuck them.And I don't think that we need to go about the business of being like, I need to fix myself so that people will accept me because that's not living truth. You know, truth is, this is what's going on with me right now. I hope it gets better, but if it doesn't, I'm still going to be all right, because I'm more valuable than these, these physical limitations.I also think it's shortsighted because, you know, we have a spiritual aspect of us and a mental aspect of aspect of us. And when we die and leave this plane of existence, you know, there will be no Dixon vaginas, you know, on the other end, the other spiritual side, you know, these things, don't concern, angels and demons.And so, so I mean, I get, I get you know, somebody values something and they've made a big deal out of it. [00:45:00] I can see when it leaves them. They may not know how to cope with that. So, so, Hmm. So it sounds like then a lot of men may not be seeking mental health treatment to go along with erectile dysfunction.So what do you speak on the, everything I just said in my tirade, just now about the mental, the the, the self valuing aspect of it and the way we receive. Oh, how, how we should reject judgment from other people and then tie in mental health counseling implications to this. Anna: For myself. I didn't really, I didn't go for therapy or mental health counseling. I think like with men, there's actually specific therapists that have that specialized in sexual dysfunction for mum. And and I think a lot of them don't know that there's, there's cures further. Ed it's like, there is a cure for vaginismus.I know there's a cure of, I don't want to do it, but but these guys that they have these when [00:46:00]they do go to therapy, they might know that there's treatments. So they've lost hope, but they don't, they don't know that there's penile implants. There is injections. There's certain medications that they can take that would hopefully help them.There's even male penile press thesis that I'd met the founder of that guy that makes externally worn penises. And it, I guess the saves several marriages as well. But so without them going to a therapist and finding out, and I don't think that they may not, may not know, and for them to end their life for that, that's even more horrible.But that they need to know more about it. There's such a stigma for, for this this whole taboo of this topic, but they hope they would talk to somebody and why not? What, what options are out there and know that they don't have to do. They don't have to have surgery to have a press Penile implant.They can use my app instead, you know, because who wants to have [00:47:00] injections in their penis. I think that would hurt, you know? So that's another thing too. It's like maybe they don't want to do those treatments anymore.De'Vannon: I, I just, I just really think that we should be more valuable than our dicks, but I can see they can stroke a male ego and then how a woman or whatever it is someone's dating could praise them for their sexual performance. But I just, I just want to encourage people to let their relationships and their self value be based on more than Dick and Pelosi. I can Anna: yeah. Would be nice. ButDe'Vannon: we, we, we, can we come a little bit farther than that people Anna: I mean, not, not everybody's like that. I mean, there's couples that I hear on Facebook that are like, We have, we have such great other types of intimacy that we don't need intercourse cause outercourse and you know, they're fine with that and not [00:48:00] so,De'Vannon: You said outercourse, Anna: yeah, like a De'Vannon: there are other chorus Anna: out outer, outer course instead of intercourse, this outer core. So anything like De'Vannon: like four plates. Anna: and stuff, I guess. Yeah. Like a, yeah. Does it mean even though you're, even though you have ed, you still can what's the proper word come and ultimate. What's the cool word to use nowadays. De'Vannon: Ejaculated com bust a nut. Anna: but if you're limp, I don't know if you knew that you don't have to tell me if you know that.De'Vannon: No, I don't. I didn't know that that was possible. Anna: Yep. I didn't either until I started reading and I'm like, what really? So I guess what the right position, the outer is can work, grinding and stuff.De'Vannon: Hmm, I suppose. So [00:49:00] there's not a blockage in between the testicles and the urethra and the flow of semen can flow out because the hard, the erection is, is nothing more than blood rushing into the spongy tissue that makes up, you know, the penis, the Dick area, you know, blood is what makes Dick hard. But I guess, but yeah, I mean, there's nothing blocking the flow of the spring mountain shore Ramadan. Anna: did it. No.De'Vannon: Hm. Well, now we'll just power, you know, we gotta learn, learn, learn, learn, learn, learn, learn, learn. And we also got to learn how to love ourselves. I feel like I just keep feeling like. The whole broke. Dick broke pussy thing is like the, kind of like the surface level of this. I feel like that this is so much deeper.You know, I feel like that this is a, like a cavernous void of. I don't know, like just did something broken inside a person. Cause you know, when you're happy, healthy, and whole, you can have shit fuck up in your [00:50:00] life or in your body. And that won't take your joy away from you. You know, when you reach a certain level of mental, which you already spiritual maturity and emotional maturity, you know, not saying you won't be pissed off if, if something breaks in your body or if you get cancer or if you get HIV, but you're not gonna let it into your life because you know how to focus on what is working and not, what's not working.So you might have some health issues, but what else, what, what what's actually going on, good in your life and everything like that. Why focus and emphasize and make a big deal out of one negative when you've got so much positive going on. It's like this whole fight over cut and uncut dicks, you know, people are so goddamn, shallow and shit that they've made people feel insecure about.Okay. I'm not gonna say I'm not going to have sex with him. He has an uncut Dick. The thing is ugly. Or on the converse, somebody that'd be like, well, I only want [00:51:00] uncut dicks. You know, it was like a whole thing, especially in the gay community. It's like a whole big fiasco and, and I'm all like, God damn it.Just shit. Dick is Dick other daily work. The same, all that is is a, is a, is a, is like a cosmetic thing. You know, it was, there was a hood there. Or there's not, you know, Yeah,sure. You can have your preferences, but it shouldn't be to the point that he makes somebody feel bad. You know, if their Dick isn't pretty enough, you know, you know, all of that and nobody should accept that sort of criticism, you know, from somebody else.And so, you know, again, it just gets me back to watching how we think about ourselves, being sure that our value systems about ourselves, not based on superficial things and also not allowing somebody to make us feel bad over superficial things. If some people should accept you for who you are, no matter what, not, what you can [00:52:00] do. Anna: Yeah. That's how it should be. But.De'Vannon: Now, you mentioned, you mentioned the statistic about how many men have we worked out a function, the songs, and how many are projected to, what are those, what are those statistical projections for? What. Anna: I didn't really find much for women because either they don't report it. Like if I, if I didn't go to the doctor, I would never have known, I have vaginismus. I want to just pay just like dealt with it. But and I think I had, this was back in the day too, when I was at, when I started using tampons because they were hurt, they were hurt.I'm like, that's weird. I'm like, well, I never said anything. Cause you know, it's embarrassing to tell my parents and my mom that or whatever, or the doctor that so, so there's not like an exact statistic for women, but I'm sure there is, there's a ton out there.De'Vannon: Well, that makes sense and sense of such a big deal for men if something's not working right. You know, he's probably going to go run real quick to try to get that shit fixed. Anna: Yeah. And there's a ton of women that have painful intercourse and they just deal with it. And like myself, I never, actually, I went to the [00:53:00] doctor. When I was early marriage and I was, I would say like sex hurts. I don't know why it hurts. It hurts. And they're like, well, just relax, have a glass of wine. And you'll be fine.I'm like, okay, thanks. When I went to the next doctor, same thing, relax, have a glass of wine. I'm like, oh my gosh. So let's put, these women are being told and said, you know, this time, thankfully somebody said my new doctor was like, you have vaginismus. Otherwise I would have been like, well, you're just too tense.And it's not all mental because I was under anesthesia of having my hysterectomy. And there were it was a vaginal hysterectomy and the doctor's like, I couldn't even get instruments. And then when you were under anesthesia with thing was just super tight and closed and not gonna go away. So yeah.It's so it's not just mental because I heard that too. Like, oh yeah, it was the wrong guy then that's probably what it is literally with me. I'll cure you. De'Vannon: Yeah. Anna: Sure.De'Vannon: Well, not all doctors are created even, you know, I believe [00:54:00] in second, third, fourth opinions, whatever it is that you need in order to until you feel like you've received an answer of PISA and you know, when it makes sense to you, and then you're not trying to like negotiate with, you know, if you know some shit ain't right.That you're getting from a doctor and then go somewhere else. Anna: Yes. That's what, yeah. Especially with cancer stuff. I had a really bad plastic surgeon that a little too confident and messed up my chest and I had to have another side, the other side removed because of it to make him symmetric. And he was just very cocky. Like, I'll wait until you're done with my once I'm done with your mastectomy, doing your reconstruction, your, your friends are going to be jealous of your, of your chest.And I'm like, I don't even have nipples guy con what friends gonna be like, Ooh, look at you Ana. No, so yeah. Second opinions.De'Vannon: I would have run right then, because, you know, if you're in a doctor's office going through what you were going through it at that point in time about your friends, you know, it was about Anna: [00:55:00] know he was very cocky.De'Vannon: about you and what you need to feel beautiful. Not about giving you a look so that you can go out there and give shallow ass people a reason to give you an attaboy or an ad, a girl or whatever.You know, his heart was not in the right place. Anna: yeah. Yeah. He's not a good guy, but I know how to pick them. Sometimes these doctors andDe'Vannon: So you've mentioned that this app is free. Anna: yes, it's free and it will have premium features available right now. Their premium features are free, but once I have enough users, then we'll do the premium services at an extra charge because I have to make some kind of revenue in order to maintain the app. So so yeah, right now it is, it is a free app.De'Vannon: So that you plan to grandfather, the people in and give them the premium services to people who have signed up, have been with you from the beginning, or will you give them a discounted rate or what's the plan? Anna: I'm not really sure yet, because I was debating if I should do a [00:56:00] monthly rate too. Cause that's another reason why I wanted to do a monthly rate for everybody is because I don't want someone to just sign up for the app to just to be nosy and just to see, like, let's see if I know anybody that has ed next to me or whatever my neighborhood.And and I didn't want that freedom. Cause I mean, I've been tablet. I could tell, like I already have a fake user on there, John DOE I'm like, or like whatever it was. I'm like what do I do with this guy? And there's no picture of him, you know? So why is he on this app? Is he because he's being nosy or is he being shy?You know, what's the reason, so. So I thought that maybe having like a minimum registration fee or whatever, it will be monthly fee that they would prevent malicious users. would actually know exactly what the app's about. They won't sign up, you know, if, if it's free, they won't sign up. Or if they have to pay for it, they may hesitate to sign up because they were make sure that they understand what the apps about first.De'Vannon: Right. That might not be a bad idea. I mean, I think E harmony [00:57:00] did something similar, you know, to that, you know, and have done very, very well in terms of, you know, having a fee for everybody, you know, with the, with the money, the things people spend money on, you don't have the bullshit, the money on, you know, hello coffee is, was at least $5.If you dare eat food, which I hate fast food, but shit, you know, you're looking at a good eight to $10 for one meal at a fast food restaurant. So a couple of dollars a month. Anna: To find true love that's worth it. Right.De'Vannon: No, it is totally worth it. And then, yeah, you'll, you'll get the bullshit people, bullshit ass people off your off of your app that way. So is there anything else you would like people to know about entwined? You know, this app can be found and like what the Google app store and the apple app store and on the website, like, so tell us where it is and anything at all. You want us to know about the app?Anna: So right now, if you go to intwine dating.com E N T w I N E dating.com, you [00:58:00] can read the whole history of why I created the app again, if you'd like, and then also you can download it to the play store. So Android it's available on Android. You use it as a web web-based app and then also so. IOS I'm working on that because I have, they, I guess they're not accepting any new dating apps in the app store right now.So I have to plead my case and show them that this is not because they said there's too many scams out there. So I had to show them, look, I have this many users. I've helped this many users. It's been on Google play store for how many months or years. And I joined all these podcasts and I in this magazine, you know, so it's a legit person.That's created something to help others. So it's just to show that it's a unique app. And then once I plead my case, I'll be able to go into the, into iOS, which I can't wait for that too. Cause it's a lot to explain.De'Vannon: Right. So the, do you have like a Facebook group, but you know, you can make like a private Facebook group so that people can [00:59:00] talk to each other. Do you have something like this? Anna: I don't yet. I, I tried to, to create like a sexual dysfunction group and a. I got a lot of creepy people trying to join us. So from different countries. And so I'm like, well, that's not going to work. So yeah, I do have like my business page, my entwine and twine Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. But as far as like a group for just the users, not yet.De'Vannon: Okay. All right. All right, Anna. Well, this isn't bringing us to the, to the end of our, I felt like I don't know, very like meaningful and loving conversation here that we've had today. So what, what advice do you have that? And I'm going to let you have the last word here. What, what advice do you have for people, men and women, both who are suffering?From either cancer and or [01:00:00] sexual dysfunction. Anna: The sexual dysfunction. If you're one of those people that have been alone for a long time, this app could be your answer you've been waiting for. And I know it's intimidating to sign up at first, but there's other people out there that, that are okay with not having intercourse. And just because you can't, if you have ed or vaginismus or whatever, whatever condition you have, it's you deserve to be loved too.And, and I think you should take that leap and join in twine and you can have somebody there that's gonna love you just the way you are and you don't have to change for anybody. Just be yourself.De'Vannon: Yeah, That's like that. I think that Bruno Mars songs and he's like, girl, you were amazing just the way you are. Anna: that's right. Spear self. it, you know, I'm a karaoke horror, by the way.De'Vannon: Hey, be a horn, not a boy. [01:01:00]Anna: I go to karaoke like seven days a week when I don't have my kids. That's my outlet.De'Vannon: You do well in Japan. They love you over there. And what about closing words where anyone with cancer? Anna: If you are diagnosed or if you find like something suspicious, don't hesitate because early detection is key. If I had waited to check my lump out, out of fear, I wouldn't be here anymore because my cancer was

HIGHLIGHTSWhat is mind shifting? Design your day by setting intentions Entrepreneurship during the pandemic Helping people enter the zone of genius Zone of Genius vs Zone of ExcellenceStepping out of your comfort zone can be frightening Leaving corporate to make a bigger impact Helping male leaders to shift cultureQUOTESAnna: "The zone of genius are those areas of your life or activities that really feel natural, they come natural to you. If we go into the practicalities of finding the zone, finding it for yourself, think about question like where do you lose track of time, right or get into flow, so to say. Or, the question I like to ask, that is cliché, maybe, is what do I look at people doing, and think, how hard can that be?"Anna: "Yeah, I'm doing a good job, my managers are happy, my clients are happy, my colleagues are happy, but I don't feel like I'm contributing to making society a better place, and the world being a better place for us to live in."Anna: "Whatever experiences you have, they make you, you. You need to learn to be grateful for those experiences and believe, have trust in that you will always find a way to use that in your zone of genius. So it's all a valuable experience."Anna: "When you are in your zone of genius, you have this flow of living, and you manage to navigate the stormy seas of life. So whatever comes to you, you can get through that. And you still feel the flow of that."Anna: "If I can transform or take the leaders who are like, the top in the company and who are the root of the whole culture within the whole organization, if I can mind shift them, they bring this new perspective, new set of behaviors, new set of mindsets to their workplace. They transform the culture." Anna: "In the beginning of my mind shifting journey, I actually wanted to support female leaders in fact, because that is my background, I've been in those shoes, I know how challenging it is. But at the same time, I realized it's not about those women's mindset or something like that, it's about the environment that is not supportive. That environment is created by the men.”Anna: "Know yourself. Invest everything you can do: time, energy, and money into knowing yourself."Rob: "Mind shifting, it's the mindset you take into, the intentionality you take in everyday. The way we wake up and set intentions, and building out things or what you call designing your day in a way that's going to maximize your potential."Connect with Anna through the links belowLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anna-liebel/Podcast: https://linktr.ee/geniusleadershippodcastDon't forget to subscribe and leave a review.Connect with Rob:www.beacons.page/robnapoliwww.linkedin.com/in/robnapIG: @rise_up.robnapWe have teamed up with Phin, a social impact marketing firm, to give back for each episode. To learn more, visit: https://app.phinforgood.com.

Where Do You Stand On Using The English Comma? Welcome to September 24th, 2021 on the National Day Calendar. Today we celebrate perfect punctuation and dramatic desserts. Anna: To my parents, Ayn Rand and God!!!! Marlo: Why are you yelling? Anna: I'm just reading the script!  Marlo: Maybe you should dial down the exclamation points. Anna: Haha. Hilarious, Marlo. Well, today is National Punctuation Day and that first sentence opens up a big debate about using the Oxford comma. Marlo: Okay, I'm in on that debate.  I don't use the last comma in a series before the word “and.” Anna: Yeah!  Neither do I, but defenders of the Oxford comma will site this sentence as an argument that the last comma before “and” is needed; “To my parents, Ayn Rand, and God,” so that the reader knows I am dedicating this to three separate people and not to my parents who happen to be Ayn Rand and God. Marlo: Okay, that's way too nerdy for me. John: Without question. Anna: Ugh!!!! Nothing says celebration like the word jubilee.  But how did this word get attached to cherries and set on fire for dessert?  For that story we look to the renowned chef Auguste Escoffier. In honor of Queen Victoria's Jubilee event, the chef combined her love of cherries with a simple syrup and warm brandy which he lit on fire for a dramatic finish.  It turns out that Escoffier had a knack for making ladies feel special. He designed the dessert Peach Melba for Nellie Melba and a macaroon for Sarah Bernhardt bearing her name. On National Cherries Jubilee Day, celebrate something special with a flaming dessert that has passion written all over it!   I'm Anna Devere and I'm Marlo Anderson.  Thanks for joining us as we Celebrate Every Day.

In this episode, Anna Jordan meets entrepreneur and The Apprentice 2019 winner, Carina Lepore. We discuss the law of attraction and starting a business in a field that you're not familiar with. This episode was brought to you in partnership with UPS and AAT. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on starting your own business.  Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out the video version of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel! Would you prefer to read the podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I'm your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Carina Lepore – entrepreneur and the latest winner of The Apprentice back in 2019. She's considered the most successful candidate of all time, winning nine out of ten challenges and never appearing in the bottom two.   Before she went on the show, Carina joined her dad to start a coffee shop business after his previous bakery burned down. Now Dough Artisan Bakehouse has two branches in London and has plans to take on Greggs. We'll be talking about the law of attraction and starting a business in an unfamiliar field.  Anna: Hi Carina Carina: Hello Anna: How are you doing? Carina: Yeah, good. Anna: Hi, Carina, how you doing? Carina: Hi, I'm good. You? Anna: Yeah, I'm doing well. Enjoying this lovely heatwave after the thunderstorms yesterday. Carina: I got caught in that! Anna: Me too. Oh, I know. I know. And you think, is it just going to be sun, shower, sun, shower. Carina: I know. It was awful. Okay, so the first thing I want to ask you is a bit about before you joined your dad's bakery business. You had your first business when you were 18? Tell us a bit more about that. Carina: Yes. So, I left school, left sixth form and I had been working for our small High Street shop, I suppose, and I was really just interested in the ways he ran the business. I would start to, at a very young age, say 14-15, I'd start to ask the right questions, just try and get involved with merchandising and his little takings book and where he would get stock from. I started to want to know more about the ways the business worked, really. So, I had that keen interest and drive at such a young age. It's obviously A-Level result day [at time of recording] and we've been talking and the main thing I've just keep thinking and saying is that when you get them results, you just think, ‘Oh my God. Is this making or breaking my life?' I remember that as well – and I remember I didn't get great grades, no, but I still had that entrepreneurial drive. So, I was going do something with that. That was more my route.   I then went and opened up a shop and I did a shop, car-boot sales and a market – Wimbledon Market. What I would do is I would buy my stock. A lot what Lord Sugar says, and now I can say to him, ‘Smell what sells.' I would pick top sellers and just bung them in my shops or whatever I had. That was me really. It was bold, it was brave. It was different. It was just something I wanted to do. I was just really excited by it. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. Great stuff. What was your first business then? I believe you had a fashion store. Carina: Yeah, it was a shop called Faze. And it was – well, it was a phase actually, because it didn't last too long. It was more of an ‘I wanted to do it – this is what I was going to do'. It was a sort of, what you would call now, I suppose, clothes that you see on Pretty Little Thing and Boohoo – just fashion clothes for young people. I also started to sell, this was crazy, I mean, spotting trends is key for any businessperson. I started to notice people would like, I don't know if you know, you're going to be like, ‘What a weirdo', people used to wear, like, designer gold teeth. I remember the American fashion sites come in. I was like, ‘I'm going to source grills and sell them'. At the time I was so excited. I had this famous rapper come in, I was like, ‘Oh my God'. But that's what is exciting. Now 16 years on, it's the same sort of thing. You know, you smell sales, you spot a trend, you get a few influencers to put your stuff up. That's how the world is working. So if you think you've got a great idea – and I keep touching on it, and it's my thing today – is I've really learned a lot about different routes coming out of school for A level students really I've learned loads about the qualification that AAT offer. It's an accountancy firm, and they offer this apprenticeship in accountancy. I imagine if I'd had that running alongside me working and wherever it be, whether I was at M&S or Vibe (at the time), but I would have had that in the bag as well. It would have just made me feel even more confident because I would have actually known a bit about real numbers back then. Knowing your numbers in business is just so key, so crucial. I've learned loads from Lord Sugar, he could just whip numbers up like this. Whereas, with someone like me, it takes a lot more. But if I'd had, for example, that qualification with AAT I would have been up on his level. Yeah, absolutely. And I guess you've been learning as you're going along, and your dad will have had his own experience and his own business savvy. When you decided to pair up to start the Bakehouse, how did you weave your vision with his – and potentially his business partner's? What kind of challenges did you have there? Especially as a family member, someone who was quite fragile at the time. Carina: Yeah, it's been like a roller coaster. I'm even talking pre-pandemic, that's a whole different roller coaster. And so I think he just allowed me to run with everything, every element I just would run with and I don't know whether he just found this new confidence in me as a woman, maybe as a grown-up woman when I was 18. He was telling me, ‘Oh, what silly mistake, go and get a job.' Whereas now, I was taking an even bigger risk, I was leaving a secure job at M&S with a good salary to then risk us having barely any takings, just to do something risky, but also as a passion of his and mine. And that's what I really wanted to do. I saw it as an opportunity. He was going through such a dark time, and I've never seen him go through anything like that in my life. I did take it as an opportunity for me to help him for once in our lives and give back to him. It's worked very well, because he's got this creative flair. He can't talk, he can't relay information. If he was here now – oh, bless him. He's got this creative flair and anything to do with products and recipes, his personality just comes out in all his products and he's so fun. That's what customers love. But yeah, the business side definitely needed to take a different route, more of a structured route. That's where I think have helped him. Such a huge part of that route has been appearing on The Apprentice. And I understand that you watched the previous series before you went on. What did it teach you before you went on? Carina: Oh my God that show. It was between that and MasterChef, but I'm not a chef, so I was going to be one of them. I just loved The Apprentice and everything about it. I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's the challenges, the team, Lord Sugar, the scary element, the adrenaline rush – I don't know. I used to always think it was one of them shows where you think, ‘Oh, I could have done that' or ‘I would have made that' and it's making the ideas. I just love everything about the show.   I just did the application one night on my phone and then suddenly got through and then just kept getting through the application process and I thought, ‘Wow, this is for me, this is meant to be.' That's when I suddenly switched into, ‘Now I need to win the show because this is want.' I want Lord Sugar to be my business partner. ‘This is for me' – that's what I kept thinking – ‘This is meant to be.' That's all I kept thinking and then actually getting on there, getting the call that they want you in the house. It was just this surreal feeling, what an experience. I loved everything about it. Just out of interest, how many steps are there in the application process? It's as tough as the show. They set you up from day one. When you turn up [at the audition], there's obviously London, Manchester and one other place somewhere. There's three application spots, I suppose. I went to the London one. So, it was over three days – Friday, Saturday and Sunday. I went on the Sunday. I remember I turned up and there was, like, suits everywhere. It was full of ‘Wolf-of-Wall-Street-type people' as I called them. It was like everyone was boardroom ready with their briefcases and there were a couple of people like me, more down to earth. We were the minority, 100 per cent. I immediately thought, ‘Oh my God – I just rocked up.' Then what they do is – it's very tough, and you learn straight away from that first task – they give you a number, I can't remember what I was, I'm thinking it was seven. Then you stand up in groups of ten or 20, whatever. You'd stand up on the line. You have to talk for 30 seconds, just talk. ‘Number seven – talk.' Anna: About anything? Carina: Yeah, anything. Some people tried to be funny, some people would go with the whole, ‘This is what I do.' Then it was a bit X Factor style. They'd call your number – half of you would go one way, half the other. That's how the process was – you kept moving up levels. The more I started to move up, I was like, ‘Oh, I must be doing something right. I'm not going down the list, I'm going up.' So you keep going up. Then I remember sneaking off. It got to 10pm and it's exactly how the show is, the days are long. They are so vigorous and they want to literally hone out the best people for this show that they keep you there. I'm ringing my sister going, ‘It's a school night you're going to have to put Lucas [Carina's son] to bed because I'm still here.' I didn't know what was happening. They could have kept me the whole night. Then you get to the next set of practice tasks and it's just so hard. I had to write a manifesto. I didn't know what that was. I was like, ‘What is this?' Yeah, it's a very challenging application process. But they obviously just want the best candidates. That's why they make it so hard. They need to set you up for how hard the show actually is. It's so hard. It's not for the weak. It's so tough. Anna: Yeah, it's a tough 12 weeks. I've read that you're a big believer in the law of attraction, and that it did play a part in you applying for The Apprentice in the first place. First of all, could you give us a bit of an explanation as to what the law of attraction is? Carina: Yes. I'm a massive believer. I started, when I suddenly just had something clicking, I can't remember the day. But I remember doing my vision board. The vision board obviously plays a massive part. If you need any books, definitely start with The Secret. It gives you everything you need. If you want to change your mindset – I used to struggle with anxiety and massively I still do. Try to breathe and think that everything is written and everything is for a reason and that it's about manifesting what you want and believing in what you want and achieving and getting your results, really. I remember this one example. I think I told This Morning or something I was on with Ruth and Eamon. And I remember saying, I sat in my shop – August is always quiet. We're going through the same thing now. So, I remember it was an August month, and it must have been 2018, just before I applied for the show. I sat there and I saw the AMS 1 (Lord Sugar's car). It was that car. It was like an entourage of three cars, I was like, ‘It's Lord Sugar.' I knew the car from the show. And I immediately saw it as a sign. This is meant to be my business partner. So that was all good. I then applied for the show in January and got on. It all happened quite quickly. If you believe and if you really think this is [meant to be]. I remember, that was a sign. I'm now going to either meet Lord Sugar, or I had Karren Brady on my vision board. Again, pre-Apprentice, she was up there, just as I didn't know… This is a thing with the law of attraction – you can put it out there, but you just you don't know where it's going to come in. You can't force it. It might just happen. Then it just happens that everything I have on that board was ticked off. It's crazy. I talk to my friends about it who are big believers. One of them is a big artist. He's really known in the world of music. He is just so successful with it. He has this vision board, he shows people what he puts on, he then takes it off a year later. It could take years, months, I don't know. But you'll slowly start to think that I'm actually getting everything I want out of life. That's what's so important. I could talk about it all day, I get so passionate about it. And I'm finding other people that really understand it and believe in that way of life. I appreciate that a lot of it is based on positive psychology – visualisations, gratitude, that kind of thing. What would you say to people who are more sceptical and think it's a bit victim blaming in some ways? Maybe there's a sense that if somebody in a business example, say you're struggling with their business, they're maybe not manifesting in the right way. Perhaps it devalues the work that the individual does and says it's more from the universe rather than the actions that the individual has put towards achieving their goals? What kind of things would you say to them? Carina: Yeah, people think differently to me, which is fine. But ultimately, you get the results that you are willing to put in. I'm not saying you've got to go and say this is the thing. This is what the books teach you. I might want a mansion, I haven't got a mansion yet, but as long as I keep believing that I'm going to have a mansion, then maybe hopefully one day, we'll just put it out there, just give it away and then stop thinking about it. But with regards to running a successful business, if my mindset was like, ‘That's it. What a bad month' or looking at takings for that month or, ‘We hit a pandemic, we can't trade anymore.' If you just say that to yourself all day, you're going to eventually get into a lull where negativity is just eating you up and you won't be able to see a way out. Anytime I'm having a bad week, of course, you have to then really think about your thoughts because they play such a big part. But it's very easy to get wrapped up in those negative thoughts. I even still struggle with it. For example, last month was a tough month, and I remember thinking ‘Ugh', but then I put a plan in place. That's all – you just got to spin it back to, ‘We're going to go again, team. Come on, let's go again, let's strive for more.' So, I have a bad day and then I'm suddenly back with a notepad and loads of notes. We go again and we push harder. But yeah, getting into a lull is hard, you've just got to find something that can find a way that can get you out, whether it's taking yourself away for a bit, self-love or self-care which is so important. Again, something I struggle with. I really have to force myself to switch off, but you have to because otherwise you'll be eaten up with all the bad thoughts. You just have to think, ‘Right, let's go again.' You know? With anxiety and having to keep your mental health and your thoughts and your mindset in check. In the last meeting that you had with Scarlett and Lord Sugar, and she said that you weren't an established business, you're a newbie and you didn't really know a lot about the industry. How did that make you feel at the time? How did you cope in such a high-pressure situation? Carina: Yeah, you do. You do want to just react instantly when there's something said about your business or yourself or your character or anything like that. It heightens the tension in the room – it's already really as high as it can be. I can't remember my answer. You might have it but I'm sure I was just more of the guidance. And I'd show I would just talk to Lord Sugar and say, ‘Well, I do know my business and I can tell you what I know about my business' and I would then just relay everything. I didn't understand her business. I would sit there. I think Claude said to me once, like, ‘You can you can take a nap now.' So maybe she didn't understand what I was trying to relay and that I didn't know my business. But yeah, even if you're a newbie and a start-up, like I've been touching upon, if you can get a great qualification, and if you can understand the importance of spotting trends, and run with it, take risks. Actually, that is exactly what I was just about to ask you. We do sometimes come across entrepreneurs or want-to-be entrepreneurs who are wanting to go into a field that they're not so familiar with. As someone who has been there, what advice might you have for them? Carina: I didn't know. And I still get dinged up on about being the baker who doesn't bake. That was the whole tagline I ended up getting from the show, but I didn't let it deter me or let it put me off. In them interviews that we do with Claude and the scary interviewers, it was so scary. They were just picking me up on the fact that, ‘How can you know your business if you don't know your business?' My argument was that you can be a club owner, you could be a restaurant owner or hotelier, it doesn't mean that I'm going to be the chef of the restaurant or the barman and I'm going know every cocktail, every recipe. It's more about your leadership skills, I think, and your passion for that business and that drive. I love everything about the bakery – I love bread, I love seeing them make it. It doesn't mean I'm suddenly going to muck in and make it, but I love the process. I love everything about it. That's where my passion shines through in customer care, the customer service piece. I tried to relay that in the show that that is actually more important. Knowing your customers and knowing what they want rather than me actually knowing how to knead a loaf. You employ people to do certain skills, you don't have to have everything. So that was my argument for the show. Any young people out there who have a passion for something, obviously learn about it and know your business, because that is very important. But you don't actually have to be the chef or whatever. Looping right back to the start. For people who have got their A levels today and they maybe didn't get the grades that they expected and they maybe want to go down the entrepreneurial route. What would you say to them?  Carina: I've learned a lot myself from the qualification that AAT are offering. I'm just going to throw out the link. Basically, it's an accountancy firm, and it's an accountancy apprenticeship. The link to that is aat.org.uk/123. The 123 spheres on the fact that knowing your numbers is so key. If you didn't get the grades you want and you know in your heart that university isn't for you, then definitely explore other routes, explore this route from AAT. See if it's for you. If you've got ideas about business, just make sure you've got a notepad, keep everything jotted down with what you want to do. Keep learning, keep networking. Get all the knowledge you need, reach out to people – some people will get back to you and give you tips and advice in the field you want to go into. Anna: Great. Well, that seems like a very good place to end. Thank you for coming on the podcast, Carina. Carina: Thank you. Thanks for having me. You can find out more about Dough Artisan Bakehouse at doughbakehouse.co.uk. You can also visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more on starting your own business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and on Twitter @smallbusinessuk (all lower case) and subscribe to our YouTube channel, linked in the description. Until next time, thank you for listening.

In this episode, Anna Jordan meets Dragon Tej Lalvani and entrepreneur Sam Jones. We discuss how pitching on Dragon's Den from both sides. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on perfecting your investment pitch.  Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out the video version of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel! Would you prefer to read the podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I'm your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Tej Lalvani and Sam Jones – one is CEO of Vitabiotics and Dragon on Dragon's Den and the other is an entrepreneur who, according to Touker Souleyman, gave one of the best pitches he's ever seen in the Den. Sam went into the Den looking for £60,000 in exchange for ten per cent equity of his internet browser company, Gener8. Wowed by the pitch, Touker Suleyman and Peter Jones teamed up to invest in the entrepreneur, leaving Tej and Deborah Meaden with cash in their pockets. Tej sought out Sam after the show, becoming one of a group of high-profile investors to back the firm. After four years on the show, Tej will be stepping back from Dragon's Den later this year to focus on growing Vitabiotics.     We'll be talking about making a pitch – from both sides of the Den.  Anna: Hi guys, how you getting on? Sam and Tej: Hi Anna, how are you? Anna: Yeah, doing really, really well. Thanks. Sam: Awesome. Good to be here this afternoon. Thanks for having us on. Right, we've got quite a bit to get through, as you've heard in the intro. I'll start with you, Sam, talk us through the process of going on Dragon's Den and anything that stood out to you particularly. Sam: Well, wow, I mean, what an experience. It'd be hard to put that into 30 seconds. But really quickly, I start with what's happened since and then I'll jump back to what happened during so. Since Dragon's Den, the reaction has been incredible. The pitch went viral. With about 20 million views on Facebook and other five million views on LinkedIn, we were averaging a new download every ten seconds for about seven or eight weeks. Off the back of that, more than 30 different press outlets wrote about us. We used this momentum to raise a modest round of funding, which we were super fortunate to be able to include. Of course, Tej Lalvani and bringing him on board alongside people like Tinie Tempah (the rapper) and Harry Redknapp (the football manager). It's been a whirlwind since Dragon's Den, which is amazing. Going back to the pitch – God, I mean, this was a hell of an experience. I think that we all know, from watching it on TV, that when you walk through those doors, and you come out of that lift, anything can happen. Of course, from the entrepreneur's perspective, you hardly sleep the night before, because you're just so nervous. So, you're standing there in this lift, light-headed and the butterflies are multiplying in your stomach and you're trying your best just to hold it together. But then your head's getting noisier – you can't even remember your opening line – and you're just trying to tell yourself to breathe. And then there's that moment where the doors open, and you walk out to the left. It's total silence. You see the Dragons sitting in front of you, just like you do on TV. You even hear the echo of your own footsteps as you're walking out to that mark on the floor to start your pitch. I think that's tough no matter who you are. That's tough. But that's how all of the entrepreneurs start on Dragon's Den. That's amazing because you looked so cool and calm when you were on the TV. It's hard to believe that all of this was rushing through your head at the time. Sam: Oh, yeah. I mean, I think you're standing in front of these five incredible characters that we've all seen on TV for so long. And of course, you know what each one of those investors can bring to your business. So, I think the real art is being able to calm your mind, take that breath, and then go in and communicate your pitch really clearly. Yeah, absolutely. And talk us through the stages before that, because I'm sure people who are listening or watching might be thinking of, maybe someday, going on Dragon's Den. Sam: Sure. In terms of preparing, well, the thing that I did really simply was I just practiced the pitch, probably 100 times – probably more than 100 times. I knew it inside out. Of course, I watched a lot of Dragon's Den as well. I imagined answering every question, but then more than that, I just knew my business. I know why I started Gener8, I know what we want to achieve. And then really the challenge was just keeping that mental clarity so I could communicate that to these guys when I was standing there. What about you, Tej – what were your first impressions when Sam walked into the Den? Tej: Well look, as an investor, as a Dragon, you look for a couple of things in terms of what they're pitching and the entrepreneur themselves. When you're investing, obviously, the pitch is important – to understand the clarity of it. And sometimes, you know, entrepreneurs don't communicate what it is. And of course, what Sam presented is not an easy thing to try and grasp in layman's terms. He did a great job of doing that. Then secondly is the opportunity you see in the business. It seemed a very strong opportunity to potentially disrupt certain things. You ask questions to the entrepreneur and you see how they respond accordingly. So the questions I asked, he responded very quickly, promptly and dealt with the issue, because sometimes entrepreneurs may deflect the question if they can't answer it. He took on board some of those points or concerns I had, and very clearly went through them and said, ‘Okay, that's a potential risk', ‘this is a problem and this is not the solution for it'. That impressed me. I think just the space as well, the tech space I was interested in. So really, there's a couple of things that you look at, and it sort of ticked all the boxes in my head as a potential investment. I thought it was a fantastic pitch, yeah. Amazing. Do you have anything to add to that as to what other entrepreneurs who may consider going on Dragon's Den can learn from Sam's pitch? Tej: Well, as Sam said earlier, one is about practicing and watching Dragon's Den. So few people actually come and really watch the episodes because everything is pretty much there. And you can see how sometimes you can go completely on a tangent because other entrepreneurs have not prepared, they've not been transparent. You could get a complete grilling versus having four or five offers sometimes. I think that that is important, preparation. Of course, nerves hit you, and some people can manage them better than others. The Dragons will be lenient if you do forget certain things, because there is that pressure on national television. However, it's how you deal with it. And this understanding – have you been actually prepared? The other important thing is understanding the full aspect – all of your business, the ins and outs of it. Sometimes, the entrepreneur says, ‘I don't really do that, that's not my role'. But it is your business. You're an entrepreneur, you need to understand everything about the finances, to the marketing, to the competitors. That is very important as someone who wants to pitch to Dragon's Den. Be clear for what you want and what you're asking for. They just sometimes come on and say, ‘I want this amount of money'. What are you going to do with that money? How's it going to work? And what do you really want from a Dragon? The clearer the entrepreneur is – the better, the more concise – and really try and explain your business in simple terms. And very quickly, people just someone's got one for now and you like, and half the time is the questions about trying to understand, ‘What does your business do'? So really, that is an important part. Get that sorted out and use the other time to try and get the investment and negotiate the deal that you want from the Dragons. Yeah, and sometimes it's not even on the show, because you've got the due diligence to go through afterwards. Off camera, of course. Tej: Yeah. I mean, that's a different process altogether. But I mean, in the Den, the idea is you have an intent to do a deal with the entrepreneur. And of course, during due diligence, certainties can probably pop up. The BBC can only do a certain amount of due diligence. As an investor and as a shareholder, there are things about shareholders agreements that you need to look at – the bank, the finances – is it correct? Is there more debt than what was given in the show? By the time you do a deal, it could take three or four months, and the situation may change for an entrepreneur as well. They're all aspects that get involved. But by and large we try and do every single deal that we agree in the Den. Great. Sam, coming back to you, when you were having your discussion with the wall, what was that like? What was going through your head? Sam: To be honest, I think that was quite a surreal moment, because I'd spent so much time, effort and energy in preparing to try to get to that stage. But when that happened, there is this kind of rush of emotion and adrenaline, where I think I was so pleased that when I asked to go to the back, I think you can see on the piece that is broadcasted on TV, I have this big grin across my face, because I'm there thinking, ‘Blimey, what a great place to be,' and reflecting kind of momentarily on the journey up until there. Before then, of course, thinking, ‘Okay, what are the offers in front of me? How should I go back and handle this?' So yeah, it was a fantastic moment, really. It must have been nerve-wracking for yourself, Tej, because you'd put forward an offer. You must just be sitting there in that moment thinking, ‘Well, what is he going to decide? Is he going to take it? Who's he going to go with?' Tej: Absolutely. I mean, it's, it's always a tense moment. And that's the fun of the show because you are competing against other Dragons genuinely for investment. And it's about communicating what value you can add as an entrepreneur to help the journey and grow the business at the same time. It's important from the entrepreneur's side and trying to communicate that at the same time. And of course, then you have the flexibility of percentage investment, whether you offer more money for the same percentage or whether you prepared to take less equity for the same amount of money. Those levers are there. And then you just see what happens. Of course, ultimately, the entrepreneur decides – they make the decision. You win deals and you lose deals all the time. Yeah, it must have felt like that on this particular occasion you missed out. Tej: Yeah, well, it felt like was I should have provided free office space! Anna: Touker finally shifted it! Tej: Of course it was disappointing. But equally, I believed in Sam's vision and what he was doing. We did reach out afterwards, got in touch and and subsequently made the investment because I thought I could add great value to the business. I thought this was a great opportunity. And so it worked out that way. Great. You say that you've never sought out an entrepreneur that's appeared on the show before – how did you go about seeking out Sam? Tej: Previously, if I've lost deals in the Den, or they haven't gone through, then usually I just didn't get it for a particular reason. I just leave it. But yeah, I thought that was an important decision. And at the time, Sam chose two people. The more I thought about it, the more I thought it was a great opportunity. So, I contacted Sam, and, obviously the other Dragons, Touker and Peter, who invested. They were very happy to have me on board as well. We had a discussion and worked out a deal that was great for everyone. Talking post-pitch, what's in the future for Gener-8, especially in terms of managing customer expectation around what kind of rewards they can get, for example? Sam: Right now, the future is really exciting. We're growing incredibly fast still. So, 1000s and 1000s of new users are downloading Gener8 all the time. We're scaling the team. When Dragon's Den aired, there was just four of us. Now we've tripled to about 11 or 12 of us. There'll be 15 of us once we finish this hiring spree. Increasing internal capability is a key thing here. Additionally, we're working on our mobile app to get this developed, out in the world. We've got over 50,000 people on the waiting list for the app already, which is fantastic. From our side, it's full steam ahead. We're chasing down these opportunities. I mean, it really feels like we've captured the Zeitgeist in empowering people to control and learn from their data. We're just running full speed ahead with that, really. How do you scale up at such a rate as you are without over-expanding or taking any of those kinds of risks? Sam: It's amazing to have people like Tej, Peter and Touker – and some of our other shareholders too – who have also been in in similar fast-growth businesses. These guys have gone through it before. There is a tried and tested playbook. Particularly if I look at one of our investors, who is the former CEO of Spotify, he's been there with the explosive tech growth. Asking our shareholders and our board is always a great area to get guidance from. The other thing as a result of explosive growth is that, as you're saying, you need to scale up to meet your consumers' expectations. There's always a little bit of a time lag in there. It's a positive problem. Of course, it is a teething pain that you need to get through. To give you some context, we can receive over 1000 emails, DMs (direct messages) or messages every day from users and new users who are getting in touch. On Friday, when I left the office, we were down to zero in our inbox. On Monday when the team came back, that's today, we're at over 1700. Of course, there is this period where we need to put in place structures and capabilities and manpower that will enable us to respond quicker and more efficiently and more effectively. We're getting there. It's exciting, as you can imagine. Yeah. Tej, I can imagine your unique insight has been invaluable here as well, in terms of scaling up in a sustainable way. Tej: Yeah. What we like to do is work with Sam and see all the all the things he needs for the business to help grow it and we provide it essentially as a wish list. And whether it's opening doors or contacts or help on strategy or advice, we're available here to be able to help with the business because we all believe in the mission equally, too. It's a movement, as Sam was talking about, and it's a lot more important than just monetary. It's actually changing the game, people are able to control their data and monetise. Great. Coming back to a more general topic. Tej, you are very active on social media and you often ask your followers for tips and what their priorities are, what their business goals are. Have you ever seen an example of a bit of business advice or a mantra that's been presented to you that's made such an impression on you that you've adopted it yourself? Tej: With social media, I enjoy interacting with all the followers and I try and give bits and tips of advice that I've learned along the way. There are many that can apply to different people. And it's great to hear feedback from how it's helped change people or given them the push they needed to set up their business. To take decisions that need to be done that may be difficult. So, in terms of advice that I think they will follow is that there are a couple of principles in my life. One is that, as a person, I always want to learn and grow all the time. Number two is that if you want to do something, set up a business, you just have to get started and do it. A lot of the time people try and wait for the perfect opportunity or the perfect idea. That's really hard to do, because it doesn't exist. What usually happens is, when you come up with an idea, what you end up with is quite different to what you started with. I think it's always an evolving thing of business. If you have something, just go for it and see what happens. People have that hesitation. I believe in today's world, when you're selling a business, it's always important to focus on a niche, because there's no point in trying to be everything to everyone. You'd rather be great at something in particular which no one else can beat you at, then trying to provide something for everyone that's slightly better than everybody else. So, there are the essential principles. As for quick tips, I'd say, when it comes to setting up a business. A lot of the time when people start businesses, they imagine how it's going to be, but it's a lot of firefighting, a lot of problem solving throughout the way – as long as you're prepared for it. My wife set up a business recently as well and I told her that, and she realises that that's exactly what it is. There are always issues, always challenges. That could be small, it could be big. But if that's what your day is, and it's about, despite all that, how do you grow? How do you exponentially build your business at the same time? Yeah, that's also why as far as again, you should be working on your business, not in your business so that you can help drive it forward. And a similar question to you, Sam – what's the best piece of business advice you've ever been given? Sam: Oh, I've been given so much amazing advice that it'd be difficult to select one piece now. But something that I can tell you, or tell the listeners, which I think might be helpful. If they're ever looking to pitch for investment, or go on Dragon's Den, I think the biggest variable that will impact the outcome is how you think about yourself when you go into that situation. What I mean by that is that you need to start by reminding yourself that you're not singing for your supper. Never stand hat-in-hand, asking for money, because that's the quickest way to turn someone off. Instead, I think that you've got to believe that you're sharing a secret with the investor. So, you're telling them about an opportunity that they're not aware of, you're pulling away the curtain and unveiling a hidden truth that's been in front of their eyes all along. And if they're lucky, you might be willing to invite them on the journey with you. Now, how much more exciting is that? So, the tip that I would give is remember that you're sharing a secret, you're not singing for your supper, anytime that you're meeting with investors or asking for investment. Tej: I think it was Henry Ford who said this quote: ‘Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right.' Because really, it's in a belief in your mind. And if you think you can't do it, then you're right, you won't want to do it. But if you think you can, and you want to do it, nearly everything is possible. Anna: Well, that seems like a great point to end. I'd like to thank you both for coming on. Tej: Thank you. It's been great. Thank you for having us. Hope it was useful. Sam: Thanks so much for having us. Anna: Thanks, guys. You can find out more about Gener8 at gener8ads.com and about Tej at tejlalvani.com. You can also visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for articles on perfecting your investment pitch. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and on Twitter @smallbusinessuk (all lower case) and subscribe to our YouTube channel, linked in the description. Until next time, thank you for listening.

Shipping across borders can be quite complex and is one of the main reasons many small businesses face export and expansion challenges. In this episode of Small Business Snippets, Anna Jordan discusses some of these challenges, the expectations of online shoppers and how the right partner can assist, with UPS's Marketing Director Arthur Lam and supplement provider YourZooki's co-founder, Marcus Mollinga. Find out more about consumers' expectations of small businesses in UPS's Smart E-Commerce report here. Want to read the UPS podcast instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I'm your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have something a little bit different for you. We have a sponsored episode with our partner, UPS. I'm joined by Arthur Lam, director of marketing at UPS and Marcus Mollinga, co-founder of vitamin brand, YourZooki.        Anna: Hi, guys, how you doing? Arthur and Marcus: Good. Rather than me introducing you, and getting a bit winded, I'll let you guys introduce yourselves. Arthur, tell us a bit more about yourself and your role at UPS. Arthur: Sure thing. A little bit about myself, I've been very fortunate to have helped customers both big and small in the last 20 years at UPS in different capacities starting, originally, in North America, the nature pack. I'm currently now the marketing director for our UK, Ireland and Nordics businesses. Very happy to be here and to share my thoughts and best practices that I came across. Anna: And now you, Marcus. Marcus: Yep, so I'm one of the co-founders of YourZooki. YourZooki's one of the fastest growing companies in the UK. We specialise in liquid supplements, which are more bioavailable compared to capsules, pills and powders. Most of what we're going to talk about today is around international shipping and how small businesses can deal with the logistics and the issues that they face scaling up – and shipping and logistics. I'm going to start off talking to you a bit more Marcus, because YourZooki has scaled up majorly over the course of the pandemic. How did you deal with the logistics of doing that? How did your shipping provider help? Marcus: During 2020, we're in our fifth year of business now. Each year, we sort of doubled in size. Last year, we saw huge amounts of growth, especially on the online side of the business, so there's a fire alarm going off. Last year, we scaled really fast. Covid, for our type of business, that was good. In a sense where we employed lots of new people – more people interested in taking vitamins and supplements over other products. In terms of scaling and to triple a business in terms of revenue in the space of 12 months is a really difficult thing to be. So one of the major things we had to do was ensure we had the right partner to get things from A to B, because it's easy to acquire a customer to get the product made, then get an appointment from A to B is also one of the key elements in our supply chain. With UPS, for us to scale fast involves selling in different countries, and selling into Germany, France, Holland, Ireland is a huge market for us, ensuring that we can get product there, then (within?) a couple of day. Timeframe is key. And UPS, I think at some points, we used to go from having a couple of orders a day, four or five years ago, to having full lorry loads coming in two or three times a day daily just to get orders out. To really scale fast, you need to have a good product, a full supply chain from making the product to getting the product to the customer, and capital. We had to raise investment to take us to that next level as well to keep up with the growth. Arthur, how do you, or somebody like UPS, support a business as it scales? Arthur: A lot of businesses, such as YourZooki, are on markets that have gone through a rapid growth in the last 18 months. Especially within the challenges that we see from a pandemic standpoint, we've seen a huge surge in online shopping. While the shift towards eCommerce was kind of expected from a long-term trend perspective, but the global pandemic has definitely sped up that trend in regards to planning for changes throughout the shipping and logistics space. My advice is to really make sure that your business systems and processes are as seamless as possible, tailored to the individual strengths, challenges and goals of the business needs that some of the small and medium-sized business they're seeing. That's one of the reasons why we at UPS offer a range of services for businesses of all sizes. Maybe you are start-up looking for a free eCommerce shipping plugin, which allows you to integrate a wide range of UPS delivery services into your e-storefront. Or maybe you are SMB looking to expand your business overseas such as what we just heard. We have a variety of solutions to make the shipping process as simple as possible. But one thing that I would often remind companies, as we just heard, that they know what creating your product and shipping it out, it's one thing how about, we cannot really just focus on the post-sales aspect, including the hassle-free return process, will really be part of a kind of instead of just creating or acquiring a one-time shopper versus acquiring a long term repeat customer. To help companies to scale and to really understand that eCommerce market better. Our smart eCommerce report, which you can download via the link in the description box, included findings from surveys for over 10,000 consumers across some of the key European markets. In those reports, it says that 35 per cent of UK shoppers believe that it is easier still to return unwanted products in person. So, in a way that really tells me that there's still a lot of room to grow in regards to making the return aspect of the surface easier. If companies have goals to cultivate long term, repeat business, and want to provide a soft, smooth return, I think it is important to work with experienced logistic providers to able to streamline that process and be able to provide different options. We as UPS, for example, we do have a comprehensive parcel return service option. You can either pre-printed labels to ship out your order, your mobile barcode and also we have convenient drop-off and delivery points through our UPS access point locations. So really, you can choose the best fit for you, as well as for your customers. Yeah, I'm sure services like that are amazingly helpful. And of course, there's been loads of changes to shipping logistics recently. Next, I'd like to just talk a bit more about like how you safeguard against those uncertainties. I mean, of course, we've had Covid this year, which we weren't expecting. As a small business who ships internationally, how do you safeguard yourself against those kinds of uncertainties? Marcus: What we did – initially we were just a UK-based company, and we set up third-party logistics centres in the USA, in Ireland and in the Netherlands. What that allowed us to do, and, with Brexit, we were still using UPS. But we were really focused on LTV, which is the lifetime value of a customer. So any eCommerce company has to really focus on what is the lifetime value of a customer, and forced to open up a 3PLs in a separate company in a separate country to improve that customer experience, still using UPS to get the product to the end customer made complete sense for us, because we could shave off a day of shipping. What we did to scale fast, which I'm sure lots of other companies are doing, is looking at opening third-party logistics centres in different countries. How do you go about setting up these third-party logistics centres? Marcus: I guess it's like a dating process, you've got to speak to lots of different companies. Sue, who's our account manager at UPS, recommended a few companies we spoke to in different countries. But yeah, you've just got to get to know the company, understand their fees, understand how they work and ensure it's the right fit for your product. There'll be specialist 3PL companies for clothing, for food and health and wellness products like ours, for drinks, which might have ‘fragile' stickers on, for example. There's all these different types of three PR companies. And it's a similar process to finding an agency or whoever – you've just got to ensure you're comfortable with them as a business. Arthur: I think it's unexpected from a UK business standpoint, because of what we kind of discuss the changes in the United Kingdom from a Brexit standpoint, or EU VAT reform that we're seeing in July. Crossing borders now requires – coordination compliancy is a big issue, and also the right documentation and paperwork that goes all along with it. As we see that the new regulation takes hold and reforms take hold, we really need to help customers to pivot their business to ensuring that they have all the information that they need in regards to sending packages, receiving packages, working with different partners –  as Marcus has mentioned. So for example, a customer might not right now know that what they need in regards to shipping internationally because it is different from the past. Tools that we have at UPS including UPS treatability – it helps customers to really understand what some of the documentation does it require and also provide estimated landed costs, calculation including duties, custom fees and potential taxes. One of the most important things that I see for my best practice standpoint is really informing your end customers were doing the ordering process that are they expected to be paying for duties and taxes or when the retailer the company is taking that aspect of it included in the overall price. I think that's really speaking about customer experience. Another factor, as I mentioned earlier is kind of the EU VAT reform that started in July 1, really impacting any imports into Europe that's from worldwide, it's not just for UK that value up to 150 euros, and likely that it's going to change the way that especially for my eCommerce step one how what is the procedure and process is going to be so for people that are not aware, what's changing. So as of July 1, the VAT exemption for imports into the EU will the intrinsic value of 22 euros has been abolished. So before, there's no VAT to worry about going to this customer, so everything's fine and dandy. Now, the European Commission has created this, they call import one-stop shop, or IOSS platform that they have launched to help to settle this VAT in Europe for goods up to 150 euros. The last thing is the online marketplace. If you're selling on that the online marketplace itself will be responsible for the compliancy of the euro VAT, when you're selling goods up to 150 euros. Now, that's a lot of jargon. So far, not going to be able to explain all of the ins and outs in this particular podcast, but one thing that we do at UPS is really to continue our commitment in regards to supporting our small business customer through these changes. UPS has selected the test consultant PwC (PriceWaterhouseCooper) to offer IOSS intermediary and compliance service for our customers who currently don't have an EU based establishment. Our customers can register for these PwC hours as assistance on our website, if they so choose. Great. And of course, we're talking about small businesses as a customer. But we also recognise that especially since the pandemic has hit a lot of customers of your customers' businesses are going online and it looks as if that shift could move online significantly for the long-term. I guess, Marcus, is that works quite well for you because I mean, you're predominantly an online product though, I understand that you do sell in store as well. Marcus: To be fair, the majority is switched from month to month, but a big part of our revenue is still in retail. We're sold in close to 4000 stores worldwide. In the USA and GNC, Holland and Barrett and Boots in the UK, but we're also in hundreds of independent stores around the UK and Ireland and UPS do all of our deliveries to the independent stores. So, for example, a local pharmacy, and who's ordering a couple of boxes, and UPS does all of our B2B. So, so we use UPS as a D2C and a B2B solution. The shift online, from an operations point of view, is easier. But I still think being in retail is fantastic. You know, we have some great retail partners and it's mutually beneficial. We sell a lot of products in their stores which helps build the brand awareness for our brand. I don't think the high street is going to disappear. I think it's just going to change and how products are sold. And I still think more and more people will be shopping online, but I don't think the high street is going to disappear. I think they've just got to adapt to how they sell products and put more importance on the experience for the customer in the store. Absolutely. Staying on the online side of it. Arthur, what advice would you give to SMBs who are dealing with this changing market who are more and more online and their expectations as to what they would want from a business that is retailing online. Arthur: Yeah, so I think, for customer care, end customer by habits have definitely changed. And I agree with Marcus that the high street is not going to go away. I think people still need the interaction, still wants to see touch and feel and so on. They're probably just going to be operating in a different way.  Now, in regards to the changing habit and what they expect from retailers or cars, businesses, we saw that from a recent World Economic Forum report actually predicts by 2030, the last mile delivery expected to grow by 80 per cent. As we know, you can buy a lot of groceries online now, there's food delivery and online stores. All those things add up and unfortunately do create global emissions to rise and the transport sectors, contribute to around 21 per cent of that. And then roll freight is around 29 per cent. However, we do also see that consumers are really leading the charge and demanding more from businesses in regards to sustainability. Within our report, we actually did see some insights and findings, I can back this up as well. Consumers are not just right now, of course not in the boardroom to fall for any sustainability strategy of a particular business. But we do see that they are indirectly voting with their wallets during their purchasing decision. You see that our survey that 64 per cent of respondents actually said that it is important that a retail delivery partner offers sustainable delivery options. 32 per cent of shoppers wanted to see small and independent retailers offset their carbon footprint and deliveries. And an over a third of UK respondents said that they wanted to see retailers offer out alternative delivery options at a reduced price. For example, if I were to pick up from a locker or collection point, give me that option so that I can choose and be a responsible citizen while at the same time getting that flexibility and such. So, we are UPS we do offer this possibility via our UPS Access Points Locations, as I mentioned, offering free redirect options up to 15 minutes before they deliver, providing choice and convenience to our customers and that's for our customers who are businesses that are trying to provide that options to the end consumers to help them to become good corporate citizens as well. Marcus, are you seeing the same sorts of expectations in terms of flexibility and sustainability from your customer base? Marcus: I think sustainability is a huge thing at the moment. I think it's going to continue for the rest of our lives, hopefully. And we've invested quite a lot of money recently, we've recently had our products certified carbon negative – not carbon neutral, carbon negative. I believe we're one of the first supplement brands in the world to be certified as carbon negative. We've also implemented a recycling rewards scheme where we encourage all of our customers to recycle their sachets. In return, they'll get rewarded by points on the website, which reduces the cost price of the next purchase. I think consumers are happy to pay and invest more money into brands, who are carbon neutral or carbon negative or investing and giving to charity or doing something good for the local community. That's definitely a big part for people looking to set up a new brand. I think that, maybe ten years ago, that wouldn't be part of the business plan. But I think in today's generation, it definitely needs to be part of the business plan, where part of your business is dedicated to helping the local community and ensuring you have a positive impact on the world. Anna: Yeah, absolutely. I think consumers are becoming a lot savvier as to where items come from, and then they can do so much research themselves. I think that's such a huge consideration. Arthur: If I could add to that point, to follow up figures from earlier. But then there's one last one that I'll throw out, because it relates directly to what Marcus is saying. In the research that we saw in the report, it's very clear that millennials and Gen Z, that people who are under the age of 34, they have confirmed that 53 per cent of them in UK have said that a brand sustainability record is actually their number one priority. This is definitely a major shift from for the previous generations and other target customers. So, as brands continue to look for where they sit in regards to competitiveness and growth is definitely an area that needs to be focused on. It's very happy to see that, that all the work that YourZooki has been doing on that aspect. Yeah, no, that's, that's, that's brilliant. And so we've covered a fair bit of ground here, is there anything either of you would like to add or you feel would be relevant to anything that we've discussed today. Marcus: I think from a small business point of view, we first started working with UPS literally on our first orders leaving we were working from home, from the kitchen table doing one or two orders a week with UPS. They've grown with us throughout the whole the life of the business. And now we have a couple of loads every day come into the warehouse. So I think it's interesting to see how you can create a partnership and that partnership isn't there just for six months just to get you from A to B, but there were the whole lifecycle the business. Yeah, sustaining those long-term relationships is so important. Do you have any advice as to how to maintain these relationships? Marcus: I think, from my point of view, from a brand owners point of view, any relationship including the relationship of UPS, I think it's really important to have open communication, whether you're working with an investor, manufacturer, three PL or your logistics partner. So always good just to communicate. You always want someone you can pick up the phone to and just ask them a question. and you know the answer, and if they don't answer, they'll return the call. Lots of companies won't return your call. It's very difficult to win a business in the early days, where you can't pick up the phone and ask someone a question. And with UPS, especially during the Brexit scenario, we were on the phone to our account manager a couple of times a day in help and advice on how we get products into certain countries and the correct paperwork we need. It's a very personable approach, which helps us. It saves us money, because we're not having to employ someone else to head up that department and figure out themselves. We're utilising UPS as resources to help benefit our business. Great. Anything you want to add to that, Arthur? Arthur: No, no. I think as I mentioned earlier, the consultative approach that I mentioned. Everywhere we go through, we really want to partner with our customers through MP. So even in the upcoming seasons, we'll be working with our customers to understand how they are seeing their orders being projected so that we can work through to ensure that we can provide the top-notch service that they are looking for. I think, at the end, I think I would say is really I thank, Marcus and his companies I guess patronage in regards to from the beginning, and I'm sure that we would have more years to come to continue to partner and, as their company continue to grow into different areas, different continents, different lanes, we will be continue to be there with them through the process. Anna: Well, that's seems like a good place to wrap up, so thank you for coming on the podcast Arthur and Marcus. Arthur and Marcus: Cheers. You can find out more about UPS and the Smart eCommerce Report through the link in the description box below. Find out more about YourZooki by visiting yourzooki.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more articles on exports and international business. Remember to like us on Facebook at SmallBusinessExperts, follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lowercase and subscribe to our YouTube channel, using the link in the description below. Until next time, thank you for listening.  

In this episode, Anna Jordan meets Spencer Matthews – entrepreneur, TV personality and angel investor. We discuss how his experiences with alcohol encouraged him to launch his low and no alcohol drinks business, CleanCo. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on branding and valuing your business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out the video version of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel! Would you prefer to read Spencer Matthews' podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I'm your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Spencer Matthews – entrepreneur, TV personality and angel investor. Spencer rose to fame on TV's Made in Chelsea and has since appeared in other shows including Celebrity Masterchef and The Jump. These days, he is the founder and CEO of low and no alcohol drinks company, CleanCo, and an investor in Cheesies cheese snacks, mental resilience app, Halen and healthy meal delivery service, Munchfit. We'll be talking about starting a business post-pandemic and what Spencer looks for as an angel investor. Anna: Hi, Spencer. Spencer: Hi, how are you getting on? Anna: Yeah, I'm doing really well. Thanks. Yeah, looking forward to the bank holiday weekend, How about yourself? Spencer: Very much. So everything's slightly blurry at the moment, plenty going on. Delighted to be as busy as we are in this tricky time, but all is well. Great stuff. Okay. First, I'd like to ask you a bit about your business CleanCo, which we mentioned in the intro. And I'm sure people are thinking, ‘Oh no, not another reality TV star jumping on the bandwagon over a trend and starting a business around it'. But yours comes from a more personal place and your own relationship with alcohol. Talk to us a bit more about that. Spencer: Absolutely. I mean, I have that same reaction just in passing that many others do when reality stars or actors start businesses and expect it to be successful based on their personality, which often isn't the case. But no, my business – or our business, I should say – now we have an incredible team and fantastic shareholders and partners, which I look forward to getting on to, was born from a personal need. I drank excessively for many years – alcohol, I mean – for many years. I decided to make a positive change, and move and throttle back my alcohol intake, well, to the point of teetotalism. For a couple of years, at least, I noticed that there was very little in the way of a credible alternative or replacement in the space. And I personally have always thought that change is quite a tricky thing. When you develop behavioural patterns in society, it's often quite difficult to break them. And I think that comes from a lack of good products in interesting markets. The gap between desire and compromise is often quite vast. That's why people stick in the in the desire camp – because a compromise is a compromise. Who would want to compromise when what you're really looking for is desire? So yeah, I noticed that when I fancy a gin and tonic, that the next best thing was either just tonic water or Diet Coke. And actually, in the UK, in particular, that made me stick out. Making a positive life choice made me stick out in a negative way, which I also thought was exciting. We set about creating a clean drinking space where you can enjoy all the benefits of a non-alcoholic drink that's essentially seemingly alcoholic. Following in the footsteps of a very successful non-alcoholic beer, of course. So in a nutshell, we just wanted to give people the experience and the social experience of ‘having fun' in drinking alcohol without the high levels of alcohol. Yeah, absolutely. You talk about trying to do a positive thing with a negative reaction. Could you talk a bit more about what kind of reception you've had? Spencer: I just think in general, not everywhere in the world, but here perhaps in particular, and times are changing. When I was drinking my most was when I was a city broker. I'd drink every day and then socialise with clients and evening drinking was just so normal and, essentially, if you weren't drinking, you'd be perceived to be boring. In the case of women, if you're not drinking, people just assume that you're pregnant. It can't possibly be because you're busy or focused or ambitious. It's turned into being a negative thing and, by the way, I was never berating bias or anything, but essentially there's a negative connotation that comes with not drinking and I actually think that due to the name, non-alcoholic mocktails sound like a mockery. Now, why would anybody go to a bar and order something non-anything? If anything, you want to have a good time, so I just thought that, following in the footsteps of an already popular word with positive life decisions: clean eating, clean living, having a clean mind, a clean body, a clean spirit. I think we I found it interesting to try and associate the already popular word, which of course we're not looking to claim came from us, but really move it into alcohol and create a positive head space within a negative industry, I'd love to talk a bit more about the word 'clean' and your use of it within the branding, because my understanding is that it's got quite negative connotations in some health circles and that it's demonising certain foods which are fine in moderation. So, tell me a bit more about why you decided to go for that particular word in your in your branding. Spencer: Well, I just I simply – respectfully, of course – just disagree with that. I think the word 'clean' is a great word. And it does exactly what it says on the tin. And I believe that, if anything, it's really attractive and makes our proposition incredibly clear. Whether or not it's detrimental in other markets – I can't speak for those markets. I look after myself. I believe that I have a good, well balanced diet and that I'm healthy. And I often eat things that I'm sure are terrible for you. Well, living a balanced life is what we're all about. We are not anti-alcohol in any way. In fact, we encourage people to live life to the fullest and have an amazing time. We also, particularly in these times, in a post-Covid world, are about to become very vocal about the importance of moderation. Drinking clean should play a part in your alcohol regime. I think full strength alcohol will one day be a thing of the past. I'm not saying that alcohol will be abolished, and people won't drink alcohol. There will always be room for alcohol. But inherently alcohol when, again, we're not waving some big flag that alcohol is bad for you. But full strength alcohol certainly has done a number on me over the years, and I'm sure anybody can attest to the fact that you very rarely, or in fact, I'm pretty sure nobody has ever woken up saying, ‘I wish I drank more alcohol'. It's usually the other way around. Just my general decision-making process, being drunk is usually quite unhelpful. I'm sure a lot of people would agree! I'd love to move into your going into investing. This is probably something that people don't really know about you, as an angel investor. How long have you been an angel investor? What got you interested in it? Spencer: I've always been interested in other people and other founders and businesses. I'm kind of led – obviously being a founder myself – I'm quite a founder-driven investor. If I care an awful lot about team and I'm the founder and the vision, then in my opinion, there are chances of success, but that's often just a kind of gut feel. Or when you talk to someone, you evaluate in your own mind whether or not you believe that this person can achieve the things that they say they can achieve. I am one for a forecast, obviously. But I do think that forecasts change. If the first domino doesn't go the way you want it to go, then presumably, your model – I'm talking really early stage now – obviously, now we create a final financial model for CleanCo and the Americas. And as an example, we do it in such a way that we're pretty confident that we'll be within 2 per cent of our financial model. But at really early stage, you don't know if you're going to sell 1,000 bottles on day one or 10 bottles on day one. It's really hard to gauge where you're heading with stuff. Take Halen as an example, the mental health app. It trains your mental resilience. It's trying to destigmatise an industry which is mental health. Joe Bates is a fantastic character founder. You should interview him, if you don't mind me saying. You get a real kick out of it – he has the most wonderful story. He's an incredibly down to earth and sensitive individual who's gone through an awful lot but remains incredibly strong. And I think that's the kind of whole Halen idea. Halen is old English for hero. And it's a Halen was someone who conquers adversity. Back to this adversity point that we're all facing in some way or another at the moment. And it's just a really interesting and exciting idea. But I knew that I was going to invest in Joe before he had a business plan. We were on a bus to Twickenham, I think, with Jodie Kidd and his partner who are friends of ours. Vogue [Spencer's wife] and Jodie are friends and I had not met Joe. We were sat on the bus. And he was to ask him about clean, and this is about a year and a half ago, so we were far less developed than we are now. I was giving him my plans and projections and what I think was possible, and he shared the idea that was Halen with me. And immediately I thought, ‘Well, how brilliant'. He was describing it as the Peloton of mental health. I just thought it was fascinating. So then and there, I decided that we'd get involved in that. That can be seen as shooting from the hip and unlikely to ever hit any home runs. But I was in Halen at the very start, from the ground level. Almost any success that it experiences is good news for my investment. So I quite like really early stage stuff, albeit incredibly risky. And if you are listening to this, and I'm a seasoned expert, but just do be very aware that when making any kind of investment, there's a good chance you might lose money. Absolutely. The companies that you're invested in, as again mentioned in the intro quite closely linked, there is very much health and wellness and fitness. What do you look for in a company that you may be considering investing in? Spencer: Experiencing the team. It's my personal belief that no one individual has the answers to anything. And regardless of the life that you've lived, and the experience that you have, surrounding yourself with people who have more experience in the sector that you're looking to crack is always a good idea. Spare no expense to get the best people behind you. Incentivise them well, make sure that everybody is happy within the team and that they are delighted to show up to work every day and that they're incentivised to carry out the dream and the vision. If I can feel that from another team, then that's a good starting point. I've spent many years working in jobs that I really don't like, and you hear about all the time that people do things that they don't enjoy and live from paycheck to paycheck. That's fine, though. Everybody's different and everybody has different dreams and goals. For me, hopefully succeeding and being at the forefront of something is all about it being exciting. I struggle to sleep at night sometimes, because I'm so excited for the following day to arrive so that I can get back into what I was doing the day before at work – that for me is awesome. I'm very fortunate to be surrounded by others who share that vision. For us, it's like we're constantly smashing down walls, we're constantly feeling like we're kind of flying. That's the feeling that I want to harness. I felt that with Joe, and I love this team, I felt that with Munchfit with Angus, and I use the products obviously as well if you use something and it's fantastic, then good. There has to be a reason I've done all this rubbish television, right? If I can spread the word on an incredible product at an early stage and get other people to try it then perhaps that, in a strange roundabout way, is the value I can add to an early stage business having done the rubbish TV. And the last question I want to ask you is kind of twofold. Over the course of pandemic, unfortunately, we've seen a lot of redundancies. But we've also seen the number of people starting their own businesses absolutely skyrocket. From a business owner's point of view, and an investor's point of view: What businesses do you think are in need just now, what problems need to be solved? And couple of quick tips on how business owners can get started because it can seem so overwhelming, and there's so much information out there. Spencer: Not having to leave your house and anything that delivers to your house, obviously, is a great business model at the moment. At one point, we were uncertain as to what would happen with retailers, right at the very beginning of the first pandemic. We were unaware if the Co-op was going to stay open. All of a sudden, you're thinking about how we are going to eat, like, we weren't sure if Deliveroo would be operating or whatever. Anything that delivers things straight to your door is obviously great. Sorry, you kind of put me on the spot with that one. We've got the great Justin Hicklin, the chairman of CleanCo, here as well. What problems needs sorting, Justin? What do you think? Justin: Day-to-day? Spencer: Yeah, just day-to-day in the UK. Justin: People turning up and sorting out computers within half an hour. Spencer: There you go – computers. Justin is of a different age. Justin: I think all the pain points in life ultimately will have some sort of instant response to it. So, instant plumbing you can have, because people are not technically minded. Spencer: Electricians – it would be good if an electrician could be on call at all times. Justin: Premium plumbing service, premium computer services. If you've got a deadline and your computer crashes, you want somebody in half an hour and you're going to pay £50 to do it. Is that [already] available? If the answer is no, then that's an opportunity. Spencer: Excellent. Let's get the trademark registration on the line. Justin: We're going to call it Key. Spencer: Yes, Key. Lovely. Spencer: Well, I need anything that simplifies, essentially. Anything that makes life easier is popular, right? People like shortcuts to things. Justin: Actually, that's a really good idea, we should do that. Spencer: Okay, Justin. Well, why don't we talk about it after the pod? And if you're thinking about starting a business, or I mean, it's going to be ever slightly boring, because I feel like I might have already covered it, but surround yourself with excellent people don't cut corners initially, raise more money than you think you might need. Don't be too bullish on what you own at the very beginning. If the right person comes along, and the deal feels good, you should do it. Owning 100 per cent of nothing is nothing and owning a chunk of something valuable is valuable. So, I think you got a lot of people – who pitch to me, anyway – who have these wild views of where they're going to be in a few years, and they want to own 90 per cent of it. This is the ‘they'll sell you this for this huge number', and you just go, ‘But without key individuals, you'll get it nowhere near where you think you're going to get it.' So, 'share the love' is what I'm trying to say. And just be intelligent with the raise. I remember, right at the very beginning, I had very little idea of how to structure and start a business, I'd like to think I do now. And essentially, we needed maybe 12 or 13 times more money than I thought we might need. I was sitting with a really interesting and eccentric gentleman who's built businesses before and it was very funny. He asked me how much money I thought we'd need to get CleanCo off the ground. I was talking in the tens of thousands. I thought we needed £60,000, maybe £100,000. I was thinking about things on how we get it going. And then how do we build from a small start, and I'll always remember it, he said, ‘Mate, you need about £3m.' And I was like, ‘What?' And then you kind of learn, and we raised a bit less than that on our first round, we raised £2.1m. But then quickly, at the end of the first year, raised another £7m and, in fact, next week our opening round to raise three times that on top of it. We're moving incredibly quickly. To get something going, particularly in a market that doesn't really exist, churns cash like you wouldn't believe. See business as kind of like going to war: try not to go underfunded and under flanked. You need plenty of good company and plenty of cash. Nice. Just quickly, you've talked about really liking exciting businesses, but getting wild propositions. Spencer: I was guilty of it as well. I think you get so wound up in your own head that your idea is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I'm not saying that good entrepreneurs shouldn't overvalue their dreams, because it's [a case of] how do you get there. If you start tiny, it's very difficult to grow it into something really substantial. Dream big, for sure. But, if you're unable to back up a really ‘hockey stick' kind of aggressive forecast... Had I gone into fundraising meetings, without some of my partners at the very beginning, essentially on hot air, and they say ‘Oh, well, how do you think you're going to achieve this level of turnover in 2023', and you haven't got a really detailed, concise answer that fits the bill, you're never going to raise any money. You just need to be quite careful. I was looking to value CleanCo a lot higher than we ended up going to market with at the beginning, because I felt like this doesn't exist. We were going to be the best in the world, we're going to be the biggest no-and-low-drinks company on the planet. You just have to just calm down slightly and replace enthusiasm with projections that make sense to good people. I think there's a lot of noise out there in the market. Everyone thinks that they're the best and everyone thinks that their idea's going to change the world. It's just a question, I suppose, of judging one's character when you're talking to somebody and understanding what you think to be relevant and truthful. Anna: Well, that's a great place to wrap up. So, thank you for coming on the podcast, Spencer. Spencer: It was a great pleasure. Thanks very much for having me. You can find out more about CleanCo at clean.co. You can also visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more on branding and valuing your business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and on Twitter @smallbusinessuk (all lowercase) and subscribe to our YouTube channel, linked in the description. Until next time, thank you for listening.  

In this episode, we are talking about the sixth form programme at KGS and all of the elements that come together to make this programme the whole package.  Although Sixth Form at KGS provides a strong academic programme with outstanding grade results, the programme also provides valuable life skills and experiences.    EPISODE THREE TRANSCRIPT SIXTH FORM AT KGS: THE WHOLE PACKAGE [00:00:00] Students: [00:00:00] I think to anyone, it can be quite daunting moving from GCSE to A-level looking at universities, but KGS has made that really easy. I quite enjoy having a smaller classes. And I think that really helps when you can work together as a class. For example, in politics, we do quite a lot of debates and it's quite interesting to work together and debates - you pick arguments and you write how you're going to speak… [00:00:24] …whereas in a bigger class, I think it'd be more difficult. And also you get more one-on-one time with teachers and you can just email them [00:00:30] and ask them questions if you have any queries. So it's quite good. [00:00:36] Narration: Hello and welcome to the Kingston Grammar School podcast. Throughout this podcast, we will be speaking with faculty and students alike about important topics surrounding the Kingston Grammar School or KGS community. I am your host, Shannon Vandermark and whether you are a present or future parent… [00:00:55] …or student or simply interested in KGS, you are very welcome [00:01:00] for any listeners new to Kingston Grammar School, KGS is an independent co-educational day school located in Kingston Upon Thames, England.  Officially founded in 1561, the school can trace its roots back to at least the 13th century. KGS is one of the most successful coeducational schools in the country.  Inspirational teaching, and a deep commitment to pastoral care means that students grow in confidence and understanding and individual [00:01:30] talents and creativity are able to flourish. [00:01:33] In this episode, we are talking about the sixth form program at KGS and all of the elements that come together to make this program the whole package.  Although sixth form at KGS provides a strong academic program with outstanding grade results. the program also provides valuable life skills and experiences. [00:01:53] Co-curricular activities on offer are vast from KGS's renowned hockey and rowing programs to [00:02:00] a variety of choices in music, drama and community service, for example.  The school's motto of work well and be happy is keenly demonstrated through each student's bespoke sixth form experience. My guests today include Headmaster, Stephen Lehec, Head of Sixth Form Lecture Program Anna Edwards, Head of Upper Sixth. [00:02:21] Chris Wenham and Head of P S H E Maria Robinson. I am still conducting these interviews remotely for this episode, [00:02:30] but it looks like I might be able to record an episode inside the school very soon. My first guest was Headmaster Stephen Lehec, who I get to chat with every episode and is always a delight. [00:02:44] Shannon: Hello, Steven. Stephen: Good morning, crikey. I guess no one knows it's morning. Hello. Good day. Good morning. Good evening and good night. And were you I'm very well. Thank you. Shannon: Thank you for sitting down and talking to me about the sixth form program at KGS. [00:03:00] Why do you think the sixth form at KGS is the whole package? [00:03:04] Stephen: Oh, gosh, that's a really big question, but it's a really good one because I guess you could ask any school leader, you know, does your sixth home offer everything that you think it should? And they'd say of course, because to some people, it just really needs to be around your A-Levels or preview or IB, the traditional competing factors A-Levels and IB. [00:03:23] And people would say. We've got what you're going to need in terms of the quality of teaching and the facilities and the [00:03:30] resources. They're going to get you to the next stage of your life. Be that a fantastic career or university. And we say, Yeah, KGS. That is really true, but that's one sixth or even one seventh potentially of what your Sixth Form experience will be. [00:03:45] So you've got the academic package, which is going to get you to your next stage. You've also got your extended learning, which is not only going to get you to university, but going to get you to the best university or course that you want to be prepared for. This could be Oxbridge. This could be studying [00:04:00] Ivy league in the United States. [00:04:01] This could be Canada. This could be your, this could be studying photography at Falmouth. It's the best photograpy course in the country. Right. But that's super curricular as we call them. Plus, you're going to have co-curricular so many, six forms don't have co-curricular don't have sports for students at that age. [00:04:14] They kind of very much rely on them doing it outside school or college. Right. We have all the careers and education advice because we have dedicated people to do that. We have all the outward bound and the trips. So that's Russia, that's Germany. That's France. That's South Africa. And on top of that, we teach people how to [00:04:30] cook a meal safely without giving themselves food poisoning… [00:04:32] …we talked to them about how to iron a shirt for your first interview. We have a lecture program that we're going to hear about. And we've got lots of bits of education, lots of soft skills preparation for life. And because you're in a school that is the type of school we are, you have a really kind of wraparound pastoral care system. [00:04:47] So. You have a teacher group that's 10, 12 people, or studying similar subjects to you with a tutor that knows their subjects, knows what your aspiration is that makes you welcome. Whether you're, someone's been in the school for the last three, four, five years, or you're [00:05:00] somebody who's brand new to the school, who's got a buddy and a mentor and a tutor and the prefects. [00:05:04] And so actually. We offer the levels and the advice and the guidance, but we offer so much more. I can't think of anything else we could put in that would make the Sixth Form experience, more happy, more fulfilling, more rewarding. And that's why, I guess we feel it's really just the whole package. Shannon: And those two important years from 16 to 18, there's quite a few choices out there for parents and students. [00:05:27] Aren't there. How do you invite people to see what [00:05:30] KGS is all about for those two years? Stephen: We have open events around June and that's in the summer of their year 10, all schools deliver fantastic service in their own, right. Everyone has their own individual way of approaching things, but obviously we get a few hundred students who every year look to us and say, if I'm going to change, if I'm looking at a potential change for six form, if I want something different, what does KGS offer? [00:05:52] And if they're looking at us, they're probably looking at two or three other schools and colleges as well. We're not gonna pretend to be a college. There's certain subjects we don't offer. We don't do [00:06:00] sociology. We don't do media studies. We don't do business studies, our profile in terms of our subjects. [00:06:03] We've got nearly 38 levels, but they're pretty facilitating academic subjects. It's sciences, humanities. Maths is very strong. We do economics rather than business studies. We do sports studies. A-level rather than BTech. We want students to go to Loughborough, to Birmingham, to Oxford, Cambridge, to Harvard, to Yale or to wherever, you know, I'm most conscious of making sure I get an American reference in when I'm speaking to you, Shannon. [00:06:27] Shannon: Syracuse University - you want to get them in there. [00:06:30] Stephen: Absolutely. I was just about some tip of my tongue, that number three on my list, looking around. And then I think people are surprised by the package by how much is on offer at KGS. When people are looking around on wondering and thinking, can I fit my choices in and where am I going to get the most support to get to the best university possible? [00:06:47] Then we're obviously an option for people and we get so many applicants that we want to cherry pick those people that we think are going to make the most of it, but also those people who really want to come because they want to come. Not because [00:07:00] their parents have said they should come. It's about getting from those couple of hundred applicants, the 20 to 30 who are really going to make the… [00:07:07] …absolute most of being here because it's going to fuel their desire, give them extra bits of potential to succeed and absolutely become a Kingstonian because people that come to us in the sixth form get embedded within the school. They're not visitors to the school. They're members of the school. Shannon: I just wanted to ask you, I know that you've got two daughters, is that right? [00:07:25] And so the older one has only just started university. Stephen: Yeah. I [00:07:30] started in KGS in 2014 and she was just about 20 year nine. So she came with that and she loved it, did so well with a GCSE. And then I tried to that classic thing as a parent saying, these are the levels you need to do. Because I have this vision of you going to Oxford and she was like, dad, you know what you say, to all the other people about being their choice, not the parents' choice. [00:07:53] She said that applies to me as well. Well, good for her. I was like, Oh wow. You know, we've got the grandparents involved. She [00:08:00] ended up doing biology, which was the subject. She dropped him. Sorry to say, but she did plastics. She did maths. She did drama, which was her favorite A-level. And that was the one I was like, Why are you doing drama and she said because I love it. [00:08:13] And I'm good at it. And actually the staff here are phenomenal, both the theory and the practice. So what a great choice for her that was. So she ended up kind of coming out with three stars, which was amazing and an EPQ and a love of netball and rowing and sports and community [00:08:30] service. And she was a prefect and I stayed out of all of that. [00:08:33] I was kind of like, I don't want to know. Because you made your choices. This is your bed.  You're going to lie in it. And so I said to her, right, but you're on for really good grades. So I want you to think about Oxford again. And he said, Dad, you're doing it again. You're interfering. I've spoken to Mr. Cooper, the academic deputy, I've spoken to Mr. [00:08:49] Fitzgerald. Who's director of careers and universities. I've spoken to my teachers. I'm going to go and study liberal arts and natural sciences at Birmingham. And I said why? And she said, [00:09:00] because I want to study liberal arts and natural sciences. She's majoring currently in economics, which she didn't study for at A-level. [00:09:06] And she said, and that is the best university for that course. So that's the course I want to do. That's the best university for it. That's where I'm going to get into. And you can keep your Oxbridge, isn't your thing. And I was thinking, Oh no, my stats, my Oxbridge stats. [00:09:23] But that's the thing. We have students who make very informed decisions and we have to remember the, whether it's our own children or other people's [00:09:30] children, it's their choice. It's their life. So Alice was for me a great success story here, she did well,  she did her own thing, really proud of what she's doing. [00:09:39] She's now on the verge of completing her first year at Birmingham. Shannon: Wow. I can tell how proud you are of them and not just because of the stats obviously, but because they are making their own decisions, which you as a father and a headmaster have encouraged. Absolutely. Thank you so much for speaking with me. [00:09:55] Stephen: Not at all, not at all. And I apologize for rambling on about lots of stuff that I'm very [00:10:00] excited about and, um, Really, really excited for what the next few years hold once we can start meeting people again in person IRL, as people say, starting to have real life meetings, Shannon: hashtag IRL. Absolutely. And it's been lovely chatting to you again. [00:10:14] Stephen: Thank you. [00:10:18] Student: I came to KGS in first year. So I was 11. So I've been here the whole way through. I preferred the idea of going to a smaller school.  Sport was really important to me; I play netball and hockey and KGS [00:10:30] offers that as well. I was also interested in other schools that had a combined cadet force, because that's a massive part of my life here at KGS. [00:10:37] And then also just the subjects I wanted to take. [00:10:43] Narration: next. I was joined by Anna Edwards, who is head of the sixth form lecture program, and also head of the psychology department at KGS and his enthusiasm for the program was so tangible that made me want to attend myself. Anna: The sixth form lecture program is fantastic. [00:11:00] I absolutely love running it partly because I get to then listen to some of these fantastic lectures myself, which is a real bonus. [00:11:07] Each year, we have a broad range of speakers, so they can be politicians, novelists, academics, those just sharing remarkable life stories. They come and speak to our six form alongside more six form specific lectures. And the purpose of the program is to give our students a greater academic diversity and enhance the curriculum that they do. [00:11:29] And it [00:11:30] gives them access to speakers that they may not come into contact with. Usually. It's really important that they develop alternative perspective to some of the views that they've been exposed to. And this in turn helps develop their cultural capital. I'd like to think that all the students will have a lecturer too, that will stick with them and will be really memorable. [00:11:51] Shannon: What do you think it is about young people at this age in particular that is interesting to you and why are you passionate about supporting young people at this [00:12:00] age in their lives? Anna: Sixth Form is such a key two years. We often talk about the transition between primary school to secondary school, but this transition between six form and leaving home, it's monumental, it's huge. [00:12:13] They will have to develop a huge amount of responsibility over their own health, finances, wellbeing, and there's so many things to consider that we, as a school, have a responsibility to prepare our students on how to manage this. [00:12:30] And how to manage these changes alongside PSHE. We take them through a lot of these changes, these processes, how to apply for their UCAS, how to apply for student finance, how they'd go about applying for a universities, abroad, how to… [00:12:46] …keep themselves safe at university while on nights out when traveling festivals and also how to safeguard their own mental health. When they're at university, university is marketed as a really [00:13:00] exciting time for them, but actually it can be quite difficult. So if they know, and if we show them where there are student services, if they find themselves in a difficult position, we know that we are sending our students off with the best opportunity to enjoy their time at university or work. [00:13:16] Shannon:Right. You don't get training for other phases in life so much, do you? know, still, unfortunately, fortunately, sometimes Anna: there are stages in life where actually it would have been nice to when having children be handed an instruction manual, but we try [00:13:30] and do that for them as much as possible. Shannon: Why do you think it's so important for a student to present themselves as well-rounded, while they're leaving KGS or while they're leaving academia or moving into another phase? [00:13:41] What is the benefit of a well-rounded individual in your opinion? Anna: You've only got to think that the ever-changing job market means that you probably won't be in a job for life and your future jobs may involve a completely different set of skills. So to succeed in the future in potentially a fast [00:14:00] changing labor market, you need to be a lifelong learner. [00:14:03] You need to be comfortable with continuous adaptation and willing to move professions or even industries if your profession becomes obsolete. So. Right from the get go. Students need to be seeking opportunities to keep the interests and abilities, broad and honing all their skills included their soft skills. Shannon: I guess, historically, the options for work were a lot more finite, the train for [00:14:30] a profession. [00:14:30] You did it for life. Didn't you? So. The importance of being well-rounded has evolved, would you say, over time? Anna: Yeah. Yes, definitely. I mean, I'm here recording a podcast as a teacher. This was definitely not my intention, but jobs evolve. A lot of our students will be doing jobs that don't exist yet. So we need to prepare them with skills that they can transfer between professions and industries. [00:14:52] Shannon: It's really interesting. I have a, one-year-old you say you're far off thinking about these things, but as soon as you start hearing about this stuff, you just start going. [00:15:00] Yeah. I already want him to be listening to music and taking swimming lessons, and I know it's quite far off, but are these things that you start to think about even from a young age? [00:15:09] Anna:  It's so important that you have interests for life, that you may have an interest in sport. You may have an interest in theater. You might have an interest in music. And actually these are things that you take with you and are important in later life. Even if it's just socially. Even if you then later on when you're working, you find a recreational football team and you can make [00:15:30] friends and have a way of exercising. [00:15:32] It doesn't have to be a competitive thing. It can be more to help your wellbeing. Shannon: And it's just life experience, isn't it at any age. And I think as children get older, students get older. I can only imagine it gets harder to persuade them or suggest that they keep their options open. But this sounds like a great way to give them lots of experience. [00:15:52] Anna:  Yeah. I would echo that and I think as they start becoming teenagers and the social aspect does become important, it is important to keep [00:16:00] all those things that they. Enjoy, and that gives them lots of different outlets. Shannon: Okay. Well, thank you so much, Anna. I know you've got a lot to get back to and, um, I really appreciate your time. [00:16:11] Anna:  Thank you very much. Okay. Take care. Thank you. Bye-bye. [00:16:17] Student:  We've been doing some interview style stuff to prepare us for applying for jobs. And then also interesting lessons as much more of a lecture, kind of feel to them compared to GCSE is where you'll have to take notes and you can decide [00:16:30] how much extra work you would like to do. And you've got all this independence and you know that however much work you're going to put in, [00:16:36] You're hoping to get those results out. Narration:  My next guest was head of upper sixth, Chris Wenham. Chris is also a chemistry teacher at KGS and is so passionate about guiding students through this monumental phase in their life. Shannon:  Hello, Chris, how are you? Chris:  I'm very well. How are you?  Shannon:  doing good. Thank you. I wanted to just kick things off by speaking to [00:17:00] you a bit about your responsibilities as the head of upper six and what your role is there at KGS. [00:17:06] Chris:  My job is anything related to the upper six. So whether that's on the academic side, in terms of helping students making good progress, whether that's pastorally and various other bits in between at the moment with the upper sixth, a lot of planning going into the end of year events and making sure that, you know, after this disrupted season of COVID, we give them the sendoff that they deserve. [00:17:27] You know, that's a little bit of fun for me at the end of the year, kind of putting [00:17:30] together leavers' clothing, hoodies, putting together the yearbook, organizing their prom. That's a nice way to ground off that time. So yeah, the whole spectrum of different things. Shannon:  And how would you say the sixth form program at KGS differs from other schools in your experience or knowledge of other schools? [00:17:45] Chris:  So I think at KGS, what we really try to do is to provide a personally tailored education. We're not a one size fits all. So you have to fit in this box. Actually, you can pursue your passions wherever they take you. So if you are [00:18:00] a high flying academic, then we want to push you. We want to make sure that your curriculum is as challenging and stimulating as possible. [00:18:06] We want to encourage you to have the highest aspirations, but if you want more vocation in your plans, then actually our careers department is very set up for that. And our careers advisor is not kind of fixated on this one track. You have to do. There is something for everyone, whether you are a sportsman or woman, whether you are interested in the spheres of drama and music, actually, there are plenty of ways where we [00:18:30] just encourage our students to thrive and excel. [00:18:32] So the thing I love about KGS, we're not an academic hot house. We get excellent results and I'm very proud of what our students achieve, but actually that is in a whole range of disciplines and fields. It is not simply about grades at the end of two years. Shannon:   Right. And why are you so passionate about supporting young people at this particular phase in their lives? [00:18:51] Chris:   I think the sixth form is so important. It is the culmination of everything that has gone before years. One to five are very important in shaping boys and girls [00:19:00] into who they are going to be. But actually sixth form is the time where all of that groundwork comes to fruition in terms of them making their own decisions for what they want to do with their lives. [00:19:10] Beyond that, I've always found it incredibly rewarding, working with sixth formers. They are a fun, creative, exciting, engaged bunch of individuals and actually helping them make the decisions that will impact the rest of their lives is just a massive privilege. And no one day is the same and I absolutely love it. [00:19:28] Shannon:  It's such an interesting [00:19:30] age, isn't it? Chris:  Absolutely. There are so many options and things to discuss and things to work through. It's just lovely. When you see young people find their passions and actually want to pursue it. And it's like, yes, our job is done. You're ready to kind of spread your wings and fly. [00:19:44] Shannon:  Right. Wow. That's great. And do you have any advice to students approaching sixth form or to parents of children approaching six form in terms of A-level choices and so forth? Chris:  In terms of your A-level choices, obviously you can't try all the levels, you are narrowing down, but when reflecting on [00:20:00] the subjects that you want to do at a level, what is it that you enjoy most at GCSE that is going to be the thing that you're going to enjoy spending the vast majority of your school career doing. [00:20:09] So again, don't choose something which you think, or that'll look good on a CV, or that will help me get into that university. It's like, well, do you want to do that? That is the key.  Shannon:   A bit harder to swallow for parents, do you think?  Chris:   It can sometimes be hard can't it, particularly if there are things that have influenced you as a parent. [00:20:27] But I think on the whole, all parents want [00:20:30] their children to be happy, doing something that they enjoy and actually sixth form and school is a time where you can make mistakes as well, but it's a safe place to make mistakes. And if you end up doing the wrong thing, well, actually it's correctable and we can give them the support to move in the direction that they want to. [00:20:45] Shannon:  Is there any advice you have, particularly for parents as they're deciding where to send their children? Are there any words of wisdom? Chris:  That's a good one. I think we want to showcase ourselves and all schools want to showcase themselves as actually, you know, [00:21:00] being caring for the individual and looking after the best interest of your son and daughter, talking to staff, you know, I love this school. [00:21:07] I've been here for. 11 years now. And it's just been an awful lot of fun. So, you know, those interactions with staff and actually seeing what do they enjoy? What is the character, what is the ethos of KGS? That's really important as we'll be the ones who kind of have the day-to-day responsibility for looking after your sons and daughters. [00:21:23] Shannon:  But it's such an important phase of their lives. It's important that they do have the support that they need or that they can benefit from it. [00:21:30] It sounds like you give a lot of that out. Chris:  Totally crucial. It is just such a joy and privilege being in the position that we are as teachers actually, you know, this is the end, this is the culmination they're ready to fly and they're prepared for this and they're ready to go onto the next thing. [00:21:41] So, yeah, it's a great place to be. Shannon:  And this must be of unique ending of a term for you as you near the end with this group of students, you've all gone through quite a year, two years in there. Chris:  Yeah. And I think it's been hard for them, particularly this cohort. They haven't had the normal sixth form experience and the [00:22:00] normal rites of passage that you might hope for sixth formers. [00:22:02] But actually I think, again, it's the testament to the wonderful resilience of teenagers. They have rolled with the punches. They have taken onboard ever changing government advice and just got on with the job in hand. And just like, so we don't like it, but we've got to crack on and we've got to do our best. [00:22:16] And that's what I've loved this year. I found it hard watching sometimes in terms of, as they struggle with the uncertainty, but they have done so well. And with the right kind of guidance and support, what an amazing life experience to have in terms of building resilience [00:22:30] and flexibility, for sure. Yes. [00:22:31] Shannon:  They are going to be well prepared for anything that life throws at them after this. I'm sure. That's right. Well, thank you so much, Chris. And, um, I really appreciate your time today. No, it's been a pleasure speaking to you. Chris:  Thank you so much, Shannon. Narration:  Finally, I spoke with a psychology teacher, Maria Robinson, who is also head of P S H E - a remarkable and comprehensive program that really prepares students for life beyond KGS. [00:22:57] Maria:  PSHE is those I'm sure plenty people know what [00:23:00] it stands for, but it's personal social health and economic education. So it covers a very, very broad range of topics. My interest is primarily in mental health as a psychology teacher. That's where my interest as lane for many years. And that feeds into the PSHE program that I run here. [00:23:16] It's not just us talking about mental health. It's basically trying to equip our students for life in and out of KGS as well. So we look at skills like building resilience, in them. What we do is we try and give them situations that might arise so they can have [00:23:30] ideas about what they would do, what warning signs to look out for. [00:23:33] We can't stop trials and tribulations that are going to happen. We can't stop bad things happening, but what we can do is make sure they're equipped so that when things do happen, they've got some idea about how to cope with those situations. Shannon:  And what's an example of a situation you might be helping prepare students for. [00:23:49] Maria:   It could be something that they all go through, so it could be exam stress. So what we try and do is give them skills from very early on. So in the first year we have a be happy program, which teachers love going over [00:24:00] with them. So. We talked to them about keeping safe and keeping healthy, but we also say, what do you do in your downtime? [00:24:05] What could you do to make yourself happy? So we look at things like Lego. We look at gardening, mindfulness cooking as well. So lots of different things that they can try if they're feeling stressed. So in that situation, when stress does happen, we can't stop that. How are they going to cope in that situation, but also having outlets for it. [00:24:24] People that can talk to those people they can talk to in school. We obviously put them to outside agencies as well, if they [00:24:30] want to talk to them, Childline things like that as well. So it's just giving them options happen. Invaluable. When they leave us at the end of the sixth form, then they're gonna find it more difficult to access the sort of support they get at school. [00:24:41] I know that universities do strive to put support packages in place for them, but. Students are then expected to show a lot more independence and they may struggle when they're in an unfamiliar situation to ask for the kind of help they need. So what we want to do is prepare them beforehand, tell them how they can access support with us, and then when they leave us as well, and also to remind them [00:25:00] that when they leave, they can still come back to us. [00:25:02] They can still turn to us for support. What I do is I email them all in their first term, after they've left us. And I do that around about world mental health day. And just say, we're still here for you. If you need us, you know, look after yourself, look after your mental health. And we also point them to external agencies at university that they can get help with their, if they need us, that kind of support whatsoever left us. [00:25:22] Shannon: So actually the sixth form program at KGS extends past when they leave you. Maria:   Yes, that's it. They may physically [00:25:30] leave us, but they're with us. Shannon: That's wonderful. Why are you passionate about supporting young people at this particular phase in their lives? What is this phase that has caught your attention and your passion? [00:25:41] Maria:   I think as a predominantly a level teacher, this is the age group that I've been working with and I've had two children go through this stage as well. They're at university and beyond now, but that moved from being reliant on your family on school and to certainly send home friends. To then becoming more independent. [00:25:58] It's really exciting, but it's very [00:26:00] scary for them as well. They're expected to act like adults in some situations and in other situations they're being treated like children. So it's really important that they get good advice and support to help them with this transition. Shannon: Do you have any anecdotes or memories of when your own children were going through this phase that informs the way that you support or guide the students now? [00:26:21] Maria:   Well, I was developing the program when they were both in the sixth form, so it was very useful. I would talk to them about the lessons I was doing. They also [00:26:30] made me jump in there because we also do a sort of more fun side for the episode. Next we give, we talk to them about skills like washing, cooking, cleaning. [00:26:37] Yeah. Ironing. And I realized I hadn't taught my son to iron a shirt. So we very quickly had a lesson on that. It was about the support afterwards as well. When my son went off to university, he found his second year quite difficult emotionally, and he needed a support from us. So it was. Making sure that I knew where to find that support for him, explain to the students before they leave us that they may need the support. [00:26:59] So [00:27:00] we look at mental health in the sixth form of how to get help when you're with us and how to get help beyond when you were at university. So they know that there are people out there who are waiting to hear from them. If they need to help inform the program for me. And it made me realize that parents need PSHE lessons as well. [00:27:15] Shannon: I know you've got kind of a timeline of the program that changes when a student enters lower six than when they leave upper sixth. Can you run us through that timeline and how your support and the program evolves and changes with this? Maria:   Yes. So the government [00:27:30] starch tree program. Is only four years, one to five. [00:27:32] So when they go into the sixth form, we have a lot more flexibility. We are required to put on a program for them, but there's much more flexibility in what we actually deliver to them. So what we do is we have sort of three themes that run through each term with both the lower and upper sixth. And we're looking at being an independent and respectful citizen. [00:27:48] We look at preparing for life after school, and then we look at keeping socially and academically healthy. So the lower sixth, we look at simple things like how to make Cornell notes. Obviously they've learned how to make notes [00:28:00] lower down in the school. But as a meeting into more challenging lessons is how to keep them precise and how to keep them useful. [00:28:07] So just very simple skills like that. We also look at the start of applying to university. What sort of things do they want to consider? What courses, where they look at? What about the geographical location? You know, do you want to stay close to home or do you actually, is this your chance to break out and be more independent and go to a bit further away from home? [00:28:24] Volunteering and the role that we as a school play in our local community, we also [00:28:30] consider wider topics such as LGBTQ issues in society. And also we look at political influences, which is preparing them for when they go into upper sixth and they're going to be voting. Right. We then in the spring term, that's just one term in the spring term, we focus on safety for them. [00:28:45] So we look at personal safety and obviously as they're getting older, they're more likely to be out at night. So we look at safety around, um, being out of the house. Safety around drugs and alcohol, because that whole scene is going to change for them. When they leave home, we look at driving [00:29:00] because we're going to start seeing them taking driving lessons and driving tests. [00:29:03] And this year we looked at issues around masculinity, the concept of toxic masculinity, because we want to raise awareness with our students of what is happening currently and what may happen when they leave us as well. In the summer, we sort of continue a bit on that topic. We talk more about consent. [00:29:18] We talk about gender equality and we're taking part in the HeForShe campaign, which looks at building gender IQ and that's part of the UN movement for gender equality. So we're sort of getting involved in bigger campaigns. We fine tune their [00:29:30] personal statements. We look at interview skills, so some universities will still do into your practice, but others don't, but every student will at some time have an interview in their life. [00:29:38] So we practice some of those questions. We look at networking and personal branding. We want them to consider their online presence from a professional perspective, not just from a perspective of what their friends can see. We look at voting they're about to turn 18 or they may have turned 18. So we look at what happens, what a voting booth looks like, what would be expected of them, how [00:30:00] to search for details of their local MP and who they might want to pick for. [00:30:04] And then we also talk about trip planning, which is a nice way. We sort of spend Christmas looking at things that might go wrong. If you plan a trip abroad, you might go into ready with your friends, look at all these scenarios. What could you do in those scenarios? And then we spent the final term really preparing them for leaving us. [00:30:18] So that's what I was saying earlier. We talk about, you know, washing ironing, cooking, shopping, cleaning. We also look at their mental and sexual health and where they can get support for that when they leave us. Yeah. [00:30:30] University accommodation, student finance. We want them to be able to make choices with up-to-date information to hand. [00:30:36] Yeah. I think it's a reasonably comprehensive program, but there's always more that we can add. Shannon:   It's very comprehensive. Definitely teaching children to become functioning adults, which, being in the workforce and just being out in the world, you realize how few people have those life skills! Yeah. Great. [00:30:52] Okay. Well, thank you so much, Maria is really nice chatting with you. Maria:   Thank you, Shannon. Yeah. Narration:   Thank you for listening to this episode. [00:31:00] of the Kingston Grammar School podcast. If you are interested in learning more about the upcoming KGS sixth form live event, please check out the Kingston Grammar School website at www.KGS.org.uk. [00:31:14] Or follow KGS on Twitter @KGS1561 on Facebook @KingstonGrammar. Or on Instagram, KGS1561. If you haven't listened to our previous episodes, do check them out. [00:31:30] In the first episode, we spoke to various students and faculty about the school's pivot into online learning during lockdown and how the KGS community was looked after and continues to be looked after in these uncertain times. [00:31:43] In the second episode, we covered the hot topic of personal devices, such as laptops, tablets, and mobile phones in the classrooms and why KGS sees these one-on-one devices as tools, not toys.  Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts [00:32:00] so that you don't miss an episode and take a moment to rate and review the podcast as it helps listeners to find us more easily. [00:32:07] Join us next time when we speak to some luminous KGS alumni.  Special thanks to our guests this episode, Steven Lehec, Anna Edwards, Chris Wenham and Maria Robinson. Thank you also to Alison Williams, Director of Marketing and Admissions at Kingston Grammar School. This has been an Applied Reality Production, Executive [00:32:30] Produced by Shannon Vandermark, Sound Design by Alex Marcou.    

In this episode, Anna Jordan meets Mark Wright – entrepreneur, TV personality and winner of The Apprentice in 2014.  We talk about work-life balance and maintaining a strong online presence for your business post lockdown. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on the pros and cons of business education. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out the video version of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel! Would you prefer to read Mark Wright's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Mark Wright – entrepreneur, TV personality and winner of The Apprentice in 2014. Born in Armidale, Australia, Mark’s entrepreneurial family inspired him to go into business himself. He was backpacking when, with £172 in the bank, he decided to get to an English-speaking country to start earning. After coming to the UK, he found a job selling digital advertising services. Unfortunately, he was unable to secure a bank loan to start a digital marketing agency of his own, so a friend suggested he entered The Apprentice instead. Since winning the show, he’s launched five businesses and is the only winner to turn over in excess of £1m within one year. We’ll be talking about stress management and maintaining a strong online business presence post lockdown. Anna: Hi, Mark. Mark: Hey, how are you? Anna: Yeah, I'm really good, thank you. How are you? Mark: I'm really good. Thank you so much for having me today. I really appreciate it. Anna: Of course, of course. How is it down where you are? Mark: Listen, it's pretty good. We're pretty lucky considering everything that's going on in the world. I mean, not compared to my family in Australia. They think we're like aliens over here in the UK. Anna: Oh, I know. I’ve got a lot of family in Brisbane and they were just going about like everything's normal and I'm just going, ‘I’ve forgotten how that how that functions.’   Mark: I'm so jealous. People always say to me, ‘Why are you living over here? I've always had a good answer, but I'm not so sure right now! Speaking of you coming over here, there's a little bit I wanted to know. In the intro, we've talked a bit about you backpacking and you coming to the UK to start work. I know that this backpacking adventure has been pivotal to where you are now. But I'm wondering, what was the intention of it when you set out? Was it part of your broader plan to become a business owner? Mark: Well, it's a bit of a sad story really. I was dating a girl in Australia, and I had sort of found my passion for digital marketing, had my self-discovery of what I was going to do in life. And then I got my heart broken. I decided the best revenge was to go out and get out in the world. I got my backpack, packed it up with like three pairs of jeans, a couple of shirts, and off I went around the UK and around Europe, as a backpacker. And it started off as a well-intentioned holiday, with the view of being a tour guide, having some fun, seeing the world, seeing some different cultures. I loved it. I visited London, I fell in love with London, I love the UK. As I continued my travels, and started to run out of money, I decided I loved London, so why not go back there? I felt pulled, it had some good energy. I'm a big believer in getting those feelings. The best book I've ever read in my life in my career is called The Alchemist by Pablo Coelho. And there's a big thing, three set themes throughout the book, which is follow the omens. If you feel something, if you feel a pull towards something, if you get energy towards something, just go with it. You technically might not know the answers at the time but if you go with it, go with the vibes and you never know what's going to happen. And as they say, the rest is history. I got here. I was living in a hostel, a backpacking hostel, I had no money, I started door knocking for jobs, I got a job, worked my way up in the digital marketing community, thought I could do it better and took my idea on The Apprentice – and one thing just led to the next. I sit here today, and all these amazing things have happened. It kind of just feels like the click of the fingers or a blink of the eye. I'm Lord Sugar's business partner and I own all these companies. It's hard work, having goals, and almost it was preordained to a certain respect. Anna: You've talked about being a real goal setter, knowing where you're going to be 5-10 years’ time, but that seemed like quite a spontaneous move. Mark: Yeah, I think, how they say the biggest things happen outside your comfort zone? I think the biggest killer of people's success is comfort, staying in their mediocrity, getting comfortable doing things that don't necessarily challenge them, but make sure they stay safe. It's really easy in our society today. Particularly, what, in Australia, where I come from and in the UK and America, it's really easy to stay comfortable in the middle part of society. Every time I've gained any success in life, whether that's leaving Australia with no money and backpacking, giving up my job and my flat to go on The Apprentice, taking loans to start companies, whatever it might have been. Every time I've achieved something in my life, it's been from pushing myself out of my comfort zone. Just reflecting on that, Steve Jobs, who's the photo behind me, who I am in love with, basically. He always said you can – it's easier to connect the dots looking backwards and it's so true in my life, when I look back at any success I've had, yes, it's from setting goals and knowing where I want to be in life and focusing on who I want to be and what I want out of life, but also pushing myself to do things that I’m not necessarily comfortable with. With your jumping in and doing things attitude, where do you stand on things like MBAs and business education qualifications? What role could be play in somebody becoming an entrepreneur? Mark: It's an interesting question. I would much prefer the people I employee to have MBAs and the infrastructure and theory of growing and scaling and managing a business. As an entrepreneur, what I've found is that it's more the risk-taking the big-thinking and the strategy of the company that I'm responsible for. The funny thing is, most of the great entrepreneurs haven't written courses, they haven't written MBAs, and you can't teach what it takes to be a great entrepreneur, because a lot of it is instinct. A lot of it is huge, unsustainable risk-taking that wouldn't make sense if you saw it written in a course. I've never been to university, I don't have any formal education or degrees, or any of that sort of stuff. Listen, I haven't done it, but that's not to say that it doesn't work. I think knowledge is power and information is really key to success. Now, a lot of people do have degrees and have been successful, a lot of people don't, it's more just what's inside you as an entrepreneur: are you driven? Can you work consistently? Are you prepared to take big risks? Do you understand the industry or the business that you're in? That's the key – doesn't matter about what degree you've got. You can have a degree, you cannot have a degree, that's not a dictator of success. What is, is are you an expert in what your field is. If you are an expert, and you've got good work ethic, and you will stay in your industry long enough, you will eventually be successful. Great. You've said in the past that it's your bullish attitude that helped you get through The Apprentice. I wonder how your level of bullishness was at the beginning when you applied versus at the end of the show. Mark: I've always had a healthy distribution of confidence, I would say and that confidence, some would describe as arrogance. I would say healthy confidence has given me a bullish strength and approach in business generally, throughout my whole career, whether it's been in interviews, on The Apprentice, in business deals – and that confidence in either negotiating a deal, winning The Apprentice, is so powerful. I believe the key to higher performance is high self-confidence, high self- belief. Before you start working on other things, you need to really work within yourself to be confident. If you believe in yourself, and what you're selling and what you're doing, other people will buy into that, whether that's your employees on the journey, whether that's a banker to give you a loan, whatever it might be, that self-confidence is so important. I think I carried this air of confidence in from day one of The Apprentice through to the final and Lord Sugar and the other judges could sense it and I think also the other candidates could sense that and it's a pretty powerful tool in The Apprentice, but in business as well. And in your profile, when the series was broadcast, and under ‘what are your worst business skills?’ it says, ‘I have no bad business skills’. Would you see those still true now, with hindsight? Mark: Haha, you've really done your research. I mean, you do say some things on there that you look back and you get a bit of a tingle of embarrassment because you say some crazy stuff to be entertaining on the show. But, do I have any bad business skills? Listen, there's always things I can improve on. But I would say my gift in life is business. I'm passionate about business. I love business. I've studied every facet of it from small, medium, large, great entrepreneurs of all time. Listen, some people can play a musical instrument like you've never heard, some people can run 100 metres in ten seconds and under. My gift that I got was being brilliant at business. And that's my thing. I'd like to say I have no bad attributes – I'm sure other people would challenge that, but it's the thing I love in life. And I believe as well that you took forward this absolute commitment to business, to your business and to creating it and making it a success. But it reached a point where you were extremely stressed, burnt out, even to the point where one of the Lord Sugar’s aides approached you and said, ‘When's the last time you took a break, went to the gym. Tell us about getting to that point and how you felt. Mark: Listen, I think when you create a start-up business, I think the start-up journey is the hardest area of business. I own businesses at all different levels of turnover size, staff numbers and investment levels. For me, the hardest journey was that ‘zero’, starting a company, registering at Companies House, and going from zero to whatever. It's so tough. In the first two years of my business, I pretty much didn't have a day off. I wasn't sleeping enough, I wasn't eating well, I was drinking too much. It was because the work that was required in terms of stress levels, hours and just general demand of creating systems and processes in the business, signing up customers, keeping those customers happy, employing staff, getting equipment, getting investment. It was a very hard process. I gave up my life for the first three to four years for the business. The first two I wasn’t in existence to people who knew me. And I was working every hour that God gave, and it was tough. It was really tough. It wasn't good for my health. It wasn't good for my relationships. We talk a lot about work life balance, okay? You can love business, you can love what you do. But you do need to find time. It’s no good – as Lord Sugar's advisor told me – being the richest guy in the graveyard, and just dropping dead at work one day. You need to be able to create a life that you can live healthily. That was that was hard-hitting advice from a billionaire’s advisor. They’re saying that so it must be true, I thought. So, I've made more time to have a bit of balance in my life, so that the success is sustainable. Anna: I suppose it can be a cultural thing, especially in the UK. I mean, there's this real pressure from various different places, very much social media included in that, you need to keep going, keep hustling all the time. So I'd imagine that's not exactly helpful. Mark: You're right, we live in a culture of Instagram, of social media, where you go on there and you hear that if you work 100 hours a week, that's the way to get a million pounds and all of this stuff. A lot of the people that are saying this don't have a million pounds, point 1. Point 2 is you can work 100-hour weeks, but for how long can you do that? Oh, and Sugar is very proud of telling people that he is a multi-billionaire who is only at work Monday to Friday. He's never worked a weekend in his 50-year career. And I think that is really powerful because he's got the proof of the pudding. He is successful, he is famous, he is wealthy, but he has work life balance. And he'll tell anyone who listens. ‘I don't work weekends, I work Monday to Friday, and I work harder than anyone Monday to Friday.’ In my head, I know on Friday evening, as I'm driving home, that is it, my brain switches off, I spend time with my wife and my family. Then on Monday morning, I'm back to it. I think giving yourself in your brain that time to recharge, to relax, to create ideas, but also to spend time with your loved ones and just switch off. Burnout is a is a real thing. It's the same with a light – if you leave it on all the time, it'll eventually burn out. Your mind, your brain and your body are exactly the same. Sleep debt and all of those things are real, legitimate causes for business owners not making it. One of the things that we've noticed in this lockdown, and one of the things that's been key to many small business owners – often by necessity – is that when their physical buildings have closed, they've really amped up their digital marketing and their online presence. But now, as trading restrictions are beginning to ease, they're moving back into their bricks and mortar businesses. How would you recommend that they keep up that momentum of their online presence with their existing resources as they move back to bricks and mortar? Mark: Well, there's been a lot of good lessons in the pandemic, and I'm speaking purely from a business perspective. On the health side of it, it's been terrible, there's no doubt about that. But from a business perspective, it has shown us the good industries, the good businesses. It has also shown us areas where we can improve our business. It’s because a business that is reliant on a singular location that cannot trade because of something like a health pandemic, probably isn't a great business, so we need to be online.   Yes, having a shop and a store is a great customer experience, and something that we should never lose. But we need to have a blend of both. And when, if you've got good systems and processes, you can have the best of both worlds: a customer in-store experience, a high street experience, and also an online 24 hours, seven days a week business. You should actually be more profitable and more dependent with your business. But it comes back to systems and processes. The problem with online is that it never switches off. And that means as human beings where we can go in and check out an ecommerce store 24/7, we can check the Google Ads 24/7 and all of this stuff, but you've got to have people, processes and systems so that you still work normal hours. Anna: Absolutely. What kind of things do you have in mind? What kind of systems? Mark: I use tools for social media posts, scheduled tools, I use software to check all my marketing campaigns, suggest changes and do low-level stuff automatically. All my email marketing campaigns for my econ businesses are done weeks in advance, and it's all just scheduled into software. So rather than sitting there at eight o'clock, ten o'clock, nine o'clock on a Saturday or a Sunday, it's all done on the Monday ready for the Saturday. It's just using tools and technology to make sure that we're actually working. I hate this phrase, but I'm going to use it now: working smarter, not harder. Just making sure that we're doing stuff, just not working 24 hours a day because the internet allows us to. Is there anything else you'd like to add before we before we go? Absolutely not. I think it was it's great that there's podcasts like this. All I would say, to any business people out there that are listening to this is get yourself a mentor. If I've learned anything through my process of business, it is surrounding myself with great businesspeople that has enabled my success. Deals and success falls off other successful people, but to knowledge falls off them. And generally, when a business owner or an entrepreneur is failing, it's not through a lack of resource or finances – it’s lack of knowledge. And it's podcasts like yours and having a good mentor that really help people get over the goal line. So yeah, that's really it. And I think it's going to be a good time ahead. Where would you recommend finding a mentor? Mark: Well, there's this amazing tool called LinkedIn. Anna: Ah, yes – I’m familiar! Mark: And what I recommend is a good mentor is someone that's been there, done that and bought the T-shirt. And I always recommend someone that's either business or industry specific. You can go on to their LinkedIn, follow them on social media, see where they're speaking next, where's their next event, where's their next conference and go there, track them down and ask them to coach you, mentor you, even if that's through giving them equity in your business or paying for their time. Knowledge really is the key to scaling up a successful business. And if you've got the right people at board level of your company, it's very hard for that company to fail. And it's been a big lesson for me on my journey, and I hope that helps other business owners as well. How much equity would you suggest? Mark: It depends how great the mentor is. I mean, I've got Alan Sugar, and I gave him 50 per cent. I mean, the most amount of equity you'd want to give any shareholder is probably 50 per cent, 49 per cent, and you probably want to come back from there. For someone that's just going to attend board meetings, you're probably looking at five per cent-ten per cent. If you're looking at someone significant, that's going to be, taking an active role, 30 per cent. But it depends on the size of your business and the size of their input as well. Anna: That sounds like a good place to wrap up, so I will leave it there. But thank you for coming on the podcast, Mark. It's been fab. Mark: Thank you so much for having me. You can find out more about Mark at climb-online.co.uk. You can also visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more on digital marketing and the pros and cons of business education. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and on Twitter @smallbusinessuk (all lower case) and subscribe to our YouTube channel, linked in the description. Until next time, thank you for listening.

In this episode, Anna Jordan meets Paul Lindley – author, campaigner and founder of Ella's Kitchen.  We talk about relearning the valuable business skills you had as a toddler and why you should consider becoming B Corporation certified.  You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on exit strategies and making your business greener. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out the video version of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel! Would you prefer to read Paul Lindley's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Paul Lindley, author, campaigner and founder of Ella’s Kitchen. He launched the company in 2006 after being dissatisfied with a lack of healthy, tasty and convenient food for children. He sold Ella’s Kitchen to Hain Celestial in 2013, stepping away from the business completely in 2018 to focus on his social campaigning. In the same year, he was appointed chair of the London Child Obesity Taskforce by Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan These days, Paul is the chair of Robert F Kennedy Human Rights UK and a trustee of Sesame Workshop, the creators of Sesame Street. He also sits on the board of social enterprise, Toast Ale.   We’ll be discussing what it takes to run an ethical business and how you can relearn the unexpected business skills you had as a toddler. Anna: Hi, Paul. Paul: Hi Anna, how are you? Anna: I’m alright, thank you. How are you? Paul: Good. I'm feeling I'm feeling quite positive. Actually. I had my Covid jab this morning. My arm’s sore, but it's an excuse to think positively about the future. Anna: Yeah, yeah. Paul: It is incredible what they've done. Over the last six months as a business or like the last year, but as a business, to take all that innovation through to get 25 million people within, what, 12 weeks? Anna: I know, I l know. Paul: It’s been an awful year, in so many ways. But you know, we've got a lot to look forward, we've got to pick on the things we've learned, we've got to celebrate some of the pivoting that businesses have done the innovation that's come around the resilience, the community that we've built over this time and sort of build back better, but what suffering we've had this last year. Okay, so let's just jump straight in. In your book, Little Wins, you talk about the business skills that we have as a toddler that we unlearn. So, what kind of business skills are you referring to? What kind of practical exercises can business owners do to relearn these skills? Paul: Thank you for coming in straight away with Little Wins – it's such a passion of mine. The book came out of my experience of building Ella’s Kitchen. Inside of me – in this grey haired 50- something-year-old – there's a little boy. I think that was the key within Ella’s Kitchen, that we had this childlike mindset of that we could do stuff, we could have an imagination and a free-thinking that would make me make the business work when everyone was saying that the odds are really stacked against you. So, I took that and I took the heart of our hero, our core consumer, and thought through the skills that toddlers have, and how we use them in our company. Then I took a step back and thought, ‘Well, everyone was a toddler.’ Everyone can unlock their personal potential as an adult or a business owner – not by learning new skills, but by relearning and rediscovering those old ones of imagination and free-thinking and self-confidence. And a whole nine of them that I put in my book. This is to simplify this complicated life that we've got to allow us to make decisions in business or in our personal lives, like toddlers do with much less information, and move forward with positivity and a ‘can do’ mindset. So really, it's about that idea that you can become the best person of the person you once were, the best version of a person that you want to work by having this type of mindset. You can bring that to your personal life, you can bring that to business. The sorts of things that I talk about are the fact that toddlers have such confidence, such creativity – they dive right into things and never give up, they get noticed. They're honest with each other, they show their feelings, they have fun, they involve others, all sorts of things that, to be honest, by the time we're all around four or five years old, we must think, ‘Life's great, I'm only four or five, and I've learned all these skills, I'm going to live to 85. What more is there to come?’ The truth is that whether asked how our society works, whether it's parenting or education, or the corporate system, narrows our vision, and it sort of asks us to conform. If you're a small business owner, if you're an entrepreneur, you want you and your team not to conform, you want you and your team to imagine things that could be possible, and to go and do them to have the wherewithal to do it to go and do them. It's really all about the mindset of the corporation, the culture, the mindset of the culture of the business. You as the business owner, you as the senior person in that accountancy firm, you've got the opportunity to set that. I think it's by setting up systems and processes and recruiting the right people that have the mindset so that you can be brave and curious – both of those things unnecessarily because what is true for any business, or any of us in this world right now: if we do nothing, we keep the status quo, we'll move backwards. The world is changing at such a rapid pace, we have to innovate, we have to try things that may or may not work. We've got to build the confidence and the bravery and the curiosity to experiment and find that way through because that gives us the edge. That's really cultural, I think. You can set your corporate reward system to set bonuses wholly on financial performance, wholly on growing five per cent from last year. We all know we've yet, well, maybe we should have set a five-year bonus that doesn't expect us to grow in any given year, because we're trying things that are going to really deliver in three-or-four-years’ time. We're happy to make mistakes and get it wrong. As long as we can iterate and we can learn, we can adapt, and we can build something from those trials and errors, then we have a better business over a five-year period. So how and I would advocate that we certainly didn't tell Ella’s Kitchen businesses I'm involved with now, though, is build a bonus scheme based on one year wholly on financial performance. Obviously, you need a successful sustainable business that makes profits and that interest should be tied to bonuses. But living the values of the reason why your company exists, I think, should be embedded within the way people are remunerated and motivated and rewarded for contributing to their company. Setting your values, for example, at Ella’s Kitchen, we had five. One of them was to be childlike. So that might be okay for a consumer brand that's got a kind of fun personality for the marketing people to deliver. But if you're the payroll person or the accounts receivable person, how do you interpret being childlike into your work? One of them one year brought ring and renamed the remittance advices to be ‘from my piggy bank to yours’. That was the habit, they reworded it, that was the small thing that they did. But it brought a smile to the person who's in the business that they were dealing with the parent and had to come from, and that person may have been a parent or may not may have talked to somebody that was a parent or may not. It was the way that, just a tiny little language change, we could get people talking about our business. And that was a real ‘thinking like a child’ aspect. That person got that part of their bonus based on that. So that's one thing that’s really around the culture and the systems that you set out.  Ultimately, you want to employ people with an open mindset who do believe in the reason you set up a business and believe that you can get there. Because if you're a small business, it's probably against the odds that you will get there, and unless you stack yourself with people who believe it and will go out of their way to do it because they motivate, you inspire them. They know what the mission of the business is, you know what the business plan is, what it takes to get there – and everyone works on that together to deliver and that's where this idea of thinking like a toddler can really be impactful. Right. So, I'm going to go from starting a business, right through to exit. One of the key decisions, if you're looking to exit, is who you're going to pass your business on to, and are they going to carry on as you would see fit. I guess with Ella's Kitchen, because your vision and your values are so deeply ingrained in the brand, how did you go about making the decision of finding the right successor for the business? Paul: Well, when you sell your business, it's hugely emotional. And it's very personal. So, my experience may be very different to others. Some people want to sell a business, walk away, don't really care what happens. They want the money in the bank, and they created something from nothing and that was their job. I named my business after my daughter. I have, as you said, very personally set the vision and the values of how that the first number of years went for Ella’s – it does matter to me still, what becomes of Ella’s and that it maintains those values. There are two things:  Who do you sell to? Who succeeds you as the chief executive? So, who do you sell to? I sort of thought of this as a horse race in a way and there were three jumps to get over and each of them was associated with the word ‘value’. The first jump to get over, and if a potential acquirer couldn't get over that we wouldn't talk to them, was values. Do they see the world in the same way as we see it? Will they support and protect the way we've seen the world and the way our business has been successful, because we've seen the world that way? Will they tinker with it? If they tinker with it, we’ll tell them now it’ll fail. And don't – let's stop the conversation. But if they do see the world in the same way, if they believe the why of why we set ours up and why it's successful, and they give us the confidence that they won't tinker with that, then we're over that first hump. The second is value – we've all worked really hard to create something of value, you need to pay as the price that that value should deliver – there's obviously an overlap between the two. If there's overlap, great, we can continue the race. If there isn't an overlap, we need to walk away because that's just not recognised. Then we get over that second hurdle. The final fence is really around added value. In my view, it's sort of what added value are they going to do to this business to make it better than we could do without them? Maybe they'll open up more markets, maybe they'll have their own factory, but we can be more efficient and better supply chains, lots of reasons why. We can start to get into the deal and the labels. We were very careful to go through that when we sold. Then it was okay – I stayed on board for another year, I ran that business, and Ella’s Kitchen for $300m business for a year, delivered what we promised and then wanted to stand back. And then it was, well, who is going to deliver and keep the heartbeat of this company going? I'm a big believer in promoting and rewarding from within a company with sort of developing talent and making people feel as though they can get to the top. We have some excellent leaders within the business. Third, the guy that took over had been in the business three or four years, was the sales director, seven years later is still the CEO, a guy called Mark Cuddigan. He is just awesome. He has the, you know, sometimes I joke that perhaps Mark is the best leader that Ella’s has had. But he has taken that business, keeping its heart, keeping its soul, keeping that mission and that vision as a feeling rather than something in the head and he delivered it with his own handprint with a team that has gone on and expanded. The value, the sort of impacts that the business has, both in terms of shareholder return and stakeholder return and delivering a mission to help children live better lives. I think you've got to do your homework for who that person is, if you care what happens next. I think it's absolutely based on values and how people see the world. And we looked for five leadership skills, really. I always do this with any sort of recruitment, no matter what the level. If they aspire to be a leader, if we want them to be able to inspire their team going forward. And those are about emotional maturity, because it is going to be a roller coaster ride. You've got to take the rough with the smooth and you've got to be mature about that. It's about a drive for improvement all the time, never been satisfied that where you are is where you're going to get to, driving your processes, your systems, your products, culture, everything forward all the time constantly. It's about effective communication. So many mistakes in business happen because we don't hear each other properly –and we don't take the time to talk to each other or listen to each other. That effective constant communication is absolutely vital. The final thing is that rather ability to see in the wider context of where our business sits in the industry, where the industry sits in society and what we can control and what we can't. That kind of leads to the fact that you don't have to actually win every battle, you want to win the war in the end if you achieve your vision. You can collaborate with your competitors in certain areas, you can do things together that will improve not only both of your businesses, but also the consumer or the client's life at the end of it by working together sometimes, or working with your suppliers or your customers. So, those are the five things and Mark excels at all of those. I would say the learning that I've seen from others, and which I was determined not to do, was my time was over. If I was going to stand back, I'm standing back. I'm there at his ear if he wants advice and he's counselled to device in the past in attendance tenders. But don't be a backseat driver – let them make the mistakes or the failures that they need to make to understand how they can get to success. Be a counsel. I think that the two most proud things I have about the Ella’s Kitchen experience happened after I ceased to be CEO. The first one is that it became a B Corporation. Mark and I worked with the shareholder and with the team to make sure that we’d qualify for that. I’m incredibly proud that Ella’s Kitchen was one of the first B Corporations in this country. I think the B Corp movement is an incredible movement to nudge forward the way we do business to a much better place. The second thing is, I think for the last five years, Ella’s Kitchen has been voted one of the UK’s Best Companies to Work For. And that's Mark, inspiring his team to really enjoy working there, really feel as though they're achieving something, being rewarded however which way that is for that contribution. We've talked a lot about inside the organisation and what's effective. And of course, you're an advocate of B Corp. A lot of small businesses today are wanting to show customers their ethics and their ethical credentials. How would you suggest small businesses go about proving how ethical they are? Paul: So what B corporations are, they're businesses that meet the highest standards of verified social and environmental performance. They set themselves up for public transparency and legal accountability to deliver on more than the purpose of making money. And they hold themselves accountable for that. What the process is, you have to do this survey, where it's really hard to pass, but you only need 40 per cent to pass. But it's hard to get to that point, since we've looked at all aspects of your business – governance, the supply chains, the people, finance, loads of things. You have to do things to make sure that you'll have a structurally sustainable business, then once you pass that you've got to go into your constitution of your company and change it effectively to say we're not just about shareholder return and maximising that, we're about stakeholder return and optimising that, we care about the environment and the communities that we draw teams from and we sell to. Each of those things are as important as the profit that we make. Think about it, the business that we operate is in the ecosystem of all sorts of other things that are happening in the world. You want a healthy interdependence between communities, the planet, and business and profit that works together. So I can give you statistics to show that B corporations perform better financially over the long term than non B corporations, I can show you that cost base is more efficient, because people stay longer because they see and believe in your mission and it’s verified, and you know where you're going. What it brings it validates your reason, your why, your mission – it tells your staff and your potential staff that you are committed to it and Ella’s Kitchen and some of the new businesses I'm involved with, we've had staff applying, team people applying to the roles because it's a B Corporation. It protects you versus your shareholders, if you like in that you can create more environmentally friendly packaging, but it costs a penny more, you can't be fired for by that because the environmental impact is as important to the profitability of the company. And you create you join this network of wonderful business leaders that really tried to use business as a force for good. I'm a huge advocate of that – it puts pressure on yourselves to live, to walk the walk of what you're talking. But it's ingrained and it helps you think through the social, the environmental and governance aspects to make your business not only the best in the world, but the best for the world as well. My hope is the future of business. And by looking at the first five years of B Corporation in this country, which we've just passed our fifth birthday, it's growing, growing like nowhere else in the world. And those businesses are performing better with more and more loyal and engaged staff. Anna: That's interesting, because I would have thought it's because consumers are becoming savvier, that it would be more of a draw for them. But I never thought that would attract employees who would be looking for the B Corp certificate. Paul: I would just say that back to – it’s people, again, consumers and employees are people wanting to find things that live what ethics and values they have in their head. If that's buying something because it's got a little knitted bauble on the top of the smoothie that going to get towards grannies versus one that isn't maybe if they employee wants to work for somebody that isn't just about making money for the shareholders, but it's also helping society where we've got a problem with loneliness with older people, that person's happy. They're just people an answer that I really think business. I don't think business is really about economics, although it has to make money. It's about psychology. It's about understanding why somebody is going to change their behaviour because you exist, and that behaviour is going to improve their lives, you're going to be able to make some sustainable returns out of it. And we all want to live in a better world because we feel really good when you create a business that does that every one of your team well, and the consumer will as well, because we're all just people. Anna: Well, I can't follow that, so I'll wrap up there. But thank you ever so much for coming on the podcast, Paul. It's been great. Paul: Absolutely welcome, Anna, and I’m delighted to share some things that I hope can help others. You can find out more about Paul and his book ‘Little Wins: The Huge Power of Thinking Like a Toddler’, at paullindley.uk. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more articles on exit strategies and making your business greener. Remember to like us on Facebook at SmallBusinessExperts, follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk (all lowercase) and subscribe to our YouTube channel, linked in the description. Until next time, thank you for listening.

In this episode I talk to Trinny Woodall, TV presenter, author and founder of makeup brand, Trinny London. We discuss influencer marketing and augmented reality within the beauty industry.   You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on SEIS and the importance of communities. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Would you prefer to read Trinny Woodall's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Trinny Woodall, fashion and beauty guru, TV presenter, author, entrepreneur and new entrant in the Telegraph’s Top 100 Tech Entrepreneurs 2020. Formerly one half of Trinny and Susannah earlier in the 2000s, she now runs Trinny London, an online make-up company providing personalised stackable products. It includes the Match2Me service which matches Trinny London make-up to a person’s skin tone, hair and eye colour. The business is worth £46m. We’ll be looking at influencer marketing and the changing habits of beauty consumers.     Anna: Hello Trinny. Trinny: Hello, Anna. How are you? Anna: Yeah, I'm doing all right. Thank you. How are you? Trinny: Very well, thank you. Anna: Great. First, I’d like to talk about your business background. Trinny London is pretty on the pulse when it comes to emerging business trends – personalisation, building social media communities, the founder being an extension of the brand. Of course, you will have a team behind you, but it looks like there is some knowhow there already. Is this your first foray into business particularly in the pre-Trinny-and-Susannah days? Trinny: Even pre-Trinny-and-Susannah days, I had gone into finance. So, I started my career in commodities, selling commodity funds, which I detested. I would go down from Earls Court to Tower Hill and I would have the FT on the outside and inside, I'd be reading the Daily Mail. But there was an obligation in my mind, because my dad was a good businessman, an entrepreneur. I was the youngest of six kids and I think I didn't feel smart enough for university. I started as a secretary in a physical trading house. I was surrounded by business conversations at the dining room table because my father, brother and brother-in-law were involved in the same business. And then, when I was doing my foray into the City, I realised how much I disliked it and I wanted to do something else. But there was a part of me that wanted to have a business. I think I always had that from a very young age. I fell into television and before I even did TV, Susannah and I had a column and the internet started emerging as a as a platform that econ was just starting in ‘98. I really thought it was so interesting that you could do some form of personalisation online. And with all the traction we had with our followers on Trinny London, I remember I spent a weekend and I was doing a fast, I had very bad skin, so I was doing this fast, very weird thing. But my brain became very clear. I thought, ‘What can one do that could bring together what the internet's beginning to offer and refine choice?’ I think the idea of refinement of choice was a really big one for me. And that came about in Ready 2, which was something that we started in 1998. By 2001, it had closed. The idea for it was a portal for women with fashion and clothing and beauty. We just couldn't get to the profitability, because there wasn't enough traction online of being able to do a transaction so you could take a commission, so it didn't happen, but I loved it. Susannah didn't love it, because for her, she loves more the creative side of things. We then did television and spent ten years doing TV shows around the world. And during that time, we had an agent. I also was more of the kind of driver of the business side of what we would do next. I’ve got lots of beeps by the way going in this podcast because as much as I love tech, I cannot for the life of me get my notifications to turn off on this laptop. I will apologise for the beeps. I'm trying to get Slack to quieten down, but it's not going to happen. So, there was that moment, after about 10-15 years working with Susannah where we both felt a fatigue with what we were doing. I think I will never stop loving the concept of making over a woman. And by that I don't mean make somebody who looks bad look good, but just moving their sense of how they see themselves. Then I had this idea for Trinny London at the back of my mind, and I didn't realise until I look back at certain things, and people remind me how early on I had that idea. And in those last few years of making over women in every different country, I would be in Poland using Inglot makeup, and then I'd be in Israel using MAC and then somewhere else, I noticed the team of makeup girls would always do the same look on everyone and I felt that I kept saying to them, ‘Look, they have all have a different skin, hair, and you must look at colour palettes and look at how you can put them differently on women.’ And I felt that was something that really didn't exist, that level of personalisation. And I also felt that it's something that really didn't happen in store. I thought, okay, it's going to be online. And by the time I made that decision, I'd started developing with an SEIS scheme, I'd gone and I thought, ‘How can I raise some money?’ I was really coming to the end of my royalties from the different shows I'd done. Probably I was the most broke I had been in 15 years. But sometimes that's when you got to do stuff. With the SEIS scheme, you can raise up to £150,000 and it's 50 per cent tax back. Two people who were kind of committed to me as a businesswoman, they knew I had a good work ethic, a friend of mine’s mother and well, one of my daughter's friends. The mother who I didn't know that well, but was in beauty. She runs beauty at Mintel research, and my daughter's Godfather, both believed in my work ethic. So I asked them, and they put in £150,000 between them. I then had the opportunity to explore. I think if you look at all different entrepreneurs, they either start tiny, and every time they get a tiny bit of revenue, they invest in something else. And I think the younger you are, the easier that is to do. But I was 50 when I started this, so I knew I needed to really accelerate to get that proposition out there. I raised that money – probably the most expensive money I raised in terms of the percentage of revenue I gave away, the percentage of the value of the business I gave away for that. But I wouldn't have got it got off the ground. And one thing I've learned in life is you must never ever regret any decision you make. I got to that point and I think then I knew from what I'd learnt in the past with Ready 2 is I had felt an inexperienced businesswoman so I had hired what I deemed to be really experienced people in their field. The CMO I paid at that time £100,000 to because I'd raised £7m for Ready 2. I hired a CEO who came from Barclays, because I thought she'd be a good – CFO, CEO background – and a lot of other women who were in quite high-powered tech. There was a huge amount going out in salaries and a really high burn rate per month.   I knew that with that £150,000 I've got to do a really good business plan, I've got to show a prototype, I've got to show where I'm going to get it made, I've got to show how I'm going to make the money. And I was building up a little social media following. I'd started on it – I realised I just wanted to do video because I come from television. And it was gaining traction. By this stage, I had a very nice guy called Mark who became my COO, and he had a CFO background. When we were doing those spreadsheets, which any small business, you spend days doing those projections, months doing those projections. People can do crazy projections. And I kind of knew, I wanted projections that, when I went into an investor meeting, I could say, ‘This is really why I believe I'll get to that revenue in 2020,2021 and 2022.’ We did it as a percentage of a conversion of my social media following. And as that social media following grew, we felt that between two and two and a half per cent of those people would buy from the brand. And now, three years later, the valuations are actually probably double what you said, because we've had huge growth in the last six months. But it's been based on that, there hasn't been a huge amount that's changed. I hired that middle management, that C-suite, a year and a half into the business. I hired a CMO. I hired a strategic CTO, I have a very nice CTO who started with us early, but he was more he's now head of development. And I hired an MPD. And I was at the stage where I got enough revenue in and I thought I can sustain those salaries. Because otherwise all you're doing is earning money to pay the salaries, and I wanted to earn the money for growth. Absolutely. As you there are a few different things in there that I'd like to pick up on. First of all, women investors, especially when they're pitching, they have a harder time because they’re often all-male panels or a majority male panels. What kind of unique challenges did you face, being a woman but also being a woman in her 50s? Trinny: I think the challenges I face were those two plus somebody who was known, but known in a different industry. That might have got me the meeting, but it was oddly prejudicing in other ways. People put you in a box. And we think in the press, they make assumptions. They don't know what you're like as a businesswoman, they've just seen you on television, which might seem to investors a light-hearted industry. There's a sort of double importance to make them appreciate and understand that you will know how to run a business and get the right people at the right time to support you in running that business. I probably went to see 22 VCs before I had somebody say. ‘Actually, I get it.’ I always thought I want to be more than a makeup brand owner. I want this to be a community for women to feel good. It was about having every age represented, every skin tone represented, every type of woman could feel that she could identify with what we were offering. So convincing investors of that, instead of our target market is 18 to 34. Because many investors said to me, ‘Love it, but can you just skew the whole thing and do it for the Millennials?’ And I was like, ‘No, to me, the gap in the market is 35 to 55.’ It's for everyone, but this is a huge gap. So I want to definitely have over 50 per cent of my customers from 30 to 60. So I just felt that there was this real untapped market in a very, very crowded area. Yeah. And you've got to stick to that vision I think if I look at the difference between what Trinny London represents and what Trinny Woodall represents, they're not all the same customer, but a lot of people from Trinny will convert to become a Trinny London customer. And there's a lot of people on Trinny London who don't even follow me, so I love that.   We have these Trinny tribes that have stopped around the world and about 70,000 women around the world who are part of our Facebook tribe, which is in their area. And that, to me, is that other part of the business when I say that Trinny London isn't just a makeup brand. I think that the word ‘community’ has been very overused in brand building, because it might have been started by some men in dark suits in a room of a very commercial business. I think community has to start organically. And then you have to feel how can you harness what is in fact, a sort of fan base, a passion? People are the most passionate about your brand, how can you harness them? It's not going to become a multi-level marketing business. That's not what we are. But how can we make them feel good about the fact that they, for free, love to chat about Trinny London?    Yeah, you were saying as well, one of the problems you had earlier on was of personalisation and reaching enough women and even on What Not to Wear, in a series you can only do maybe six people at a time. Whereas with social media that's completely revolutionised that and you can have a much broader reach now. That has brought about the Trinny Tribes on Facebook. I'd quite like to know, was that part of your plan originally? Or did that come about organically? Trinny: I think that the very original Trinny Tribe were people who follow me on my Instagram. And some of those were like, ‘Are you the person who used to be Trinny of Trinny and Susannah? Yeah, I used to be that person. Now I just do my own thing. And they follow that. There was a woman called Kelly in north west England and she just started a Facebook fan page. And she took a bit of our logo and called it Trinny Tribe and said if there’s anyone else who’d like to know what she's doing at the moment and follow her. This is, as we launched the brand, I mean, literally, maybe a tiny bit before. These people started joining. And then somebody said, ‘Well, I'm in London, I might start a London one.’ And so we saw our logo on Facebook, or a picture of me or a bit of yellow, really random little things that you put on Facebook. And so we thought, ‘Okay, well, what we can't have this very fragmented interpretation of our brand, because it sort of dilutes what we are and, and in a way there is an association there with the word ‘Trinny’. We approached the admins, and we said, ‘Look, we just love what you're doing, would you like to be more connected to us, and we can give you a nice logo for your area and think of ways that we could… you could come in for a drink occasionally and it’d be lovely to meet some of you.’ They were very excited. And so that's in a way how it began. And then we assigned a woman who did a lot of stuff on social media called Paris, to be the contact for those people. We then said, ‘Look, we think admins a horrible word, let's call you ambassadors, or ambassadresses.’ So they love that too. We have some of them in unit for a little brainstorm, what they liked about things and what they'd like more of, just so there was that feeling that they are a part of the growth of what Trinny London represents. Yeah, exactly. I know I can imagine that over COVID the habits of beauty consumers has changed because Trinny London has quite a soft, radiant glow-y type of makeup which people are actually saying is quite good for Zoom calls rather than something that's very heavy that you'd see more on a night out. How would you say that your customer base has changed over COVID? Is it more people who would be going to the makeup counter who are now looking online? Trinny: For sure. And as you were saying there is a certain advantage to having the social media videos because you bring in the people who are less seasoned when it comes to makeup, maybe want to try and explore it a bit. They have tutorials on how to layer different pots. There are a couple of things I would like to talk about before we wrap up. First off, within the beauty industry, we see a lot of influencer marketing but with your Ambassadresses is there as much a need for that? What kind of role does [influencer marketing] play? Trinny: it's interesting, in a way, because I have across Instagram and Facebook, about 2m followers, I am to an extent an influencer. And because Trinny London is my revenue stream and my brand building, I've never done any deal with anyone. I talk about Zara a lot on my own channel, because I think it's the most internationally available. And I talk about what I love. I was very reticent [about influencer marketing]. When we tried very early on, we worked with rewardStyle. And we paid – what for us then – was a fortune to get them to select the people they thought were good influencers, and I found incredibly low conversion. I think our strategy has been far more that when we look at for Facebook advertising, for example. Facebook advertising has changed their algorithms, so that instead you can still designate an audit audience. But they can also say, ‘Okay, we'll take control of that earlier stage.’ And we will find the algorithm of the people who are buying from you already and match it and do their weird magic, which… it's a computer teaching another computer to teach another computer, it's like a dark hole. Any brand that's going down that route, and deciding to do it, and I do think it's a far more successful route for the influencer route and for our brand, is the importance that these shouldn't really always look like ads. And because people are engaged by something that grabs them that they think is something they're going to learn from. So sometimes you and I would look on our feed and would see an ad, it will grab us, because it's a really clean ad, it's like this will clean your teeth better than any other toothbrush. And you're like, ‘Okay,’ but some other things need a story to be told. And sometimes you think you've got 30 seconds to tell that story, or you've got five minutes to tell that story. But some of our most successful ads on Facebook are just actually women saying, ‘I'm trying this’ and they're telling their story. We have a lot of content, we have at any one time about 200 ads running on Facebook. And that is a strategy that was implemented when our CMO joined us, Shira. Because she said, ‘Look, we really want to put in the marketplace a lot.’ And everyone is going to be attracted by a different bit of content. I think there are some good influencers. But generally, an influencer is a business. And we must respect and appreciate that as a business. But I think to be a really successful influencer, you have to have a proportion of your feed being, ‘This is what I really love, and there's no ad or whatever involved.’ And when you see an influencer, where it's basically ad or affiliation, ad or affiliation, that’s it, there's no objective, ‘This is what I really think about the product.’   The other problem we've got as consumers is magazines are drying up and magazines are going online. The concept of the war between advertising and editorial, which used to be quite strict in a magazine, is very blurred online. Because magazines need to make a revenue, and the revenue is they write an article and the user clicks through and they have an affiliation to that product. And that happens whenever I'm on any magazine. That's a revenue stream. We know that if we read an article in a magazine, and these are the top 10 there'll be a click through to all of them and the magazine is making money because that's the only way they can make money. They are an influencer on a grand scale, but they are still getting the cut like the small influencer is getting a cut, so I'm not sure. But to answer your question in a very long-winded way, for our business, the influencer model is not the right model. There are beauty businesses in Germany, there's a young beauty brand called Bananas or something I can't remember, it's quite often young brand, like a Glossier but younger. And their model is a purely influencers. They put all their revenue that I might put into Facebook into 200, 300, 400 key influencers and it's very successful with them. Is that an age thing or an attitude thing? I'm not sure. Anna: I guess knowing your business as well. I mean, it's going to be different. You're going to have different target audiences, you'll find them in different places. So I definitely think that you do what's right for you. Okay, last thing I'd like to talk about is the the future of Trinny London, and where it's going. Match2Me is a huge part of the overall brand. Do you see yourself moving it on a bit? Say, with augmented reality. We were seeing it with L'Oreal, having apps that you can put makeup on your face virtually, things like that. Do you ever see Trinny London going that way? Trinny: I think that's the fundamental difference between what a lot of brands did during COVID is they did virtual trial, because they knew all their customers wanted to try. Virtual try-on to me, to date, is still gamification. The majority of them come with filters. And it's kind of, for some women, it's like, ‘I know, I'm not going to look like that, because they've made my face perfect.’ Is it just a fun way to play? And would it make me buy the lipstick? On some brands, the conversion is great, because it's catering to an audience that already is building and doing filters on Instagram and Snapchat and TikTok and therefore, they love it. And it kind of makes sense. I think Match2Me is unique, because there is no other beauty brand that is actually saying, ‘Let's look at your skin, hair and eye. And let's look at the refinement of choice of colour that suits you.’ I think that can't be replicated. I mean, I haven't seen anyone do it. And I've been working with four or five different augmented reality and virtual trial brands and have come to the conclusion that, in fact, we are going to develop something internally. Because what I see is very set out of the box plug-ins, and I want to do something which is a step ahead of what these people are currently offering. There is a huge, very interesting opportunity for brands to really personalise and personalise to their customers. But I think there's going to be cleverer ways than just what is still a little bit of gamification. Anna: So, something that perhaps isn't on the market yet? Trinny: Not on the market yet. Anna: Well, that sounds like a good place to wrap up. Thank you for coming on the podcast, Trinny. It was great to have you on. Trinny: It was lovely to talk to you.              You can find out more about Trinny London at trinnylondon.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for articles on starting a business of your own and building social media communities. Remember to like us on Facebook at SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lowercase. Until next time, thank you for listening.

There's nothing more infuriating than when people throw shade at the anti-diet perspective without bothering to actually research it. When "The Biggest Loser" trainer/shameless fatphobe Jillian Michaels arrogantly released a Youtube clip trashing the 10 principles of intuitive eating, WITHOUT EVEN READING THE BOOK, she REALLY pi***ed off the community! And none more so than my guests, anti-diet fitness trainers Anna Hearn and Shreen El Masry, who have been dying to come on the podcast and set the record straight! Finally the COVID window opened just a crack so I could record the very first IN PERSON podcast! Join us as we dissect Jillian's often hilarious inability to comprehend a life beyond diet prison. WHAT ON EARTH IS THIS 'PERMISSION TO EAT!!' It seems the lady doth protest too much - could it be that the Queen of Diet Prison is sensing the paradigm-shifting power of the anti-diet revolution? That's right folks, the unrivalled reign of Biggest Loser-esque terror is over!! Vive La Difference! Please note - this episode comes with a hefty side serve of calorie count discussions, so if you're in recovery from an eating disorder please consider your level of spoons to hear the diet talk. But, if you've had a gutful of igno-rants about anti-dieting, it's time to get ALL FIRED UP! Show Transcript:   LOUISE: So, here I am with Anna and Shreen. Thank you so much for coming on the show. ANNA: Thank you for having us. SHREEN: Yeah, thank you so much. LOUISE: It’s so exciting to be alive with actual humans in the room, and slightly weird. Why don’t you guys tell me all about what is firing you up? ANNA: We’re really fired up about Jillian Michaels and her aggressive fatphobic rant on intuitive eating. LOUISE: (sighs) First of all, I have to say I love how you say ‘rant’, it’s very proper and awesome. But yes, Jillian Michaels – Biggest Loser trainer in the United States. Horrendously fatphobic. ANNA: Yeah, I mean … she got her living, she makes her living from shaming fat bodies. I think that tells a lot about her character and where she’s going to go with her intuitive eating rant. LOUISE: So, she was on the Biggest Loser for years and years and years. Her website … well, she’s touting herself as the world’s best trainer. Like, the biggest expert in the world on all things fitness. Which, well … this is just a hunch, but I could find people on the planet who are more qualified. ANNA: Well, if you want to break down her qualifications, I think it looks like she’s done a couple of personal training qualifications, a couple of fitness qualifications and … SHREEN: One ‘woo woo’ nutrition qualification. ANNA: There is a nutrition qualification there too, but it doesn’t look like there’s any degrees or anything. So, when it comes to intuitive eating and looking at all of that, when we go into it you’ll realise, I think, that she hasn’t really done her research. She doesn’t understand it. And I think it’s interesting that somebody without that nutrition background or lived experience with that sort of thing talks about it the way that she does. SHREEN: I think as well, not only does she come across really aggressive and shaming, also I think her insecurity is really coming out in this video. Intuitive eating is a movement that’s really starting to take off, and she’s clearly threatened by it. You can see her defence mechanism is up, and she’s … you know, really, just … her demeanour is just awful. LOUISE: It's hard to tell, though, if her demeanour’s just awful because she’s defensive or because her demeanour’s just awful. SHREEN: Yeah, that’s true. ANNA: I kind of picked up on that and thought she was sensing a threat because intuitive eating is becoming more mainstream, people are becoming more aware of it. So that could threaten what she does, because she makes a living forcing people to lose weight. LOUISE: So, during the 90’s and the early 2000’s, like … it was a free-for-all with bullying people with larger bodies, as we saw. World-wide, the Biggest Loser was the number one show, and everyone thought it was okay. So, she’s had this unfettered ability to be horrible about body size and really belittling of people in larger bodies. And now, I think she’s realising it’s not okay to keep on doing that. ANNA: The backlash about it. LOUISE: So, just to set the stage. What we’re seeing … because I did see the internet blow up. It was a while ago now, but let’s face it - we’ve all been in iso and unable to talk to each other. So, she has like a YouTube channel and one of her YouTube little presentations - I don’t watch what she does, just for my own mental health - but this one was Jillian Michaels talking about intuitive eating. Which, oh my god … let’s just get Donald Trump talking about sexism. ANNA: That’s a great analogy. SHREEN: She’s basically, I think she’s just gone on the website and just pulled up the principles without doing any research into it or even understanding there’s over a hundred studies done on intuitive eating and there’s a whole book as well. She just went on there, read out these principles and gave her, I guess, her opinion.  ANNA: It became really clear that she hasn’t taken the time to understand it. She hasn’t learnt about the authors; you’ll see as she comes to the end of it, she talks about assuming that it was written by somebody who had just had some bad experience with diet culture, maybe had an eating disorder LOUISE: Oh my god, that’s so disrespectful SHREEN: So disrespectful. ANNA: No understanding or bothering to explore that the authors are actually dietitians who had come up with this approach because they had done so much work with clients who had struggled a lot and this is what they’d learnt from working with them over years and years. LOUISE: These are the gurus. Like, Tribole and Resch, they wrote the initial book Intuitive Eating and it’s just been updated, which is fantastic. But even that, even their book which is written from that perspective of helping people recover from eating disorders, that book is built on another big long history of social justice and fat activism. To not recognise that intuitive eating is part of a social movement and like, the way she presented it is like, she just stumbled across a webpage and … oh my god. ANNA: Definitely, yeah. And it came across very, very condescending. I felt really bothered … SHREEN: It’s so harmful, as well. That was the thing that really bothered me the most, was how much … I mean, she causes so much harm anyway, but the message was just next level harm. And if anyone was watching that and had no idea, the things that she was saying … yeah, it’s just not on. LOUISE: Oh god, yikes. So, we thought we would unpick Jillian Michael’s feelpinion to each of the ten principles of intuitive eating. And you guys have written some awesomely detailed notes. ANNA: We had a really good chat about it. LOUISE: Fantastic. But I’m so interested, because you guys both work in this industry as HAES® positive, body inclusive, weight neutral trainers hearing from almost like the personification of diet culture woman. SHREEN: She is the reason why people have so much fitness trauma and so much negative association with fitness. She’s causing that. ANNA: She is the epitome of diet culture. SHREEN: Yeah, she is the epitome of diet culture, for sure. ANNA: And I think we chatted about this as we were hanging out one day, and we just came across this as a topic that fired both of us up. And it’s frustrating when you see … when you’re so heavily involved in this space, and the HAES® space, and the body inclusive space, it can be … and luckily for me working here at Haven, this is the space I come to work every day. So, I’m not exposed to traditional diet culture unless I stumble across it or it’s brought to my attention. So, I couldn’t help but just be really quite wild about this. LOUISE: I love it. I mean, I don’t love that you’re wild, but I kind of do. But, yeah. It’s nice to know that in this industry there are people who feel really strongly about just putting an end to this. She’s what’s wrong with the fitness industry at the moment, and you guys are the future. And I think she can smell that. So, I think, like I … I managed to watch it and still shaking with rage but thank you for this glass of champagne. ANNA: I don’t think we could do this without a little bit of champagne. SHREEN: No, we need some bubbles. LOUISE: The first thing she starts with, so she’s actually going through all the principles. SHREEN:  Correct. LOUISE: Why don’t you give me the lowdown on your reaction. ANNA: Let’s kick off. So, she does go through the points one by one, and the first principle is ‘reject the diet mentality’. And I just want to point out a few things that came up for me that were just so apparent throughout. Her fatphobia is so clear. She’s driven, everything she says, and her approach is all drive by this. And I think she’s very ignorant, like she doesn’t see that there’s an issue with this. She comes form that space where it’s very normalised to shame fat bodies, it’s not okay to be in a bigger body. And she very clearly associates weight and health, they’re so closely tied, which I think it really problematic, obviously. So, in this ‘reject diet mentality’, what came up for you, Shreen? SHREEN: Well, the first thing for me was that she couldn’t distinguish a difference between fad diets and what dieting is, and diet culture. She’s like, “oh you know, if it’s fad diets we’re talking about yeah, yeah sure”, but this is a woman who has sold supplements in the past. LOUISE: She’s sold fad diets. SHREEN: She’s sold fad diets. And she is diet culture, so I guess she can’t … she doesn’t understand what diet culture actually is and why it’s so important to reject it. I mean, diet culture in the US alone is worth 70 billion dollars. ANNA:  She profits off it. SHREEN: She profits off everyone’s insecurities. So, she was just like, “reject diet culture? What’s this, what does this mean?”. And I really did sense there that her insecurity is coming out there because that is her, that’s how she makes her money. ANNA: Well that’s it, she’s really incentivised to support diet culture.  LOUISE: But the distinction that she made between “well, if it’s fad, but if it’s proper” … it just made me laugh, because she’s had no less than four separate lawsuits … ANNA:  Jillian? SHREEN: Yeah. LOUISE: Launched against her by her consumers who bought her caffeine-fuelled diet pills. ANNA: Which I think she might have … there might have been something on the Biggest Loser where she gave them to contestants unfairly, apparently, as well. LOUISE: Oh my god, scandal on the Biggest Loser. Like … ANNA: Well, the other thing that came up for me there was she said, “what is this, healthy at any size?”, and that’s immediately a red flag representing that she doesn’t know what she’s talking about. She hasn’t researched this because … I can understand it’s very easy to misconstrue Health At Every Size® for healthy at every size, but it’s quite a different meaning and that assumption that, you know, just assuming that we’re saying as a Health at Every Size® professional that all bodies are healthy, that’s not where we’re aiming. We’re talking about people being able to pursue health regardless of shape and size. LOUISE: Or, also, we’re talking about the choice not to pursue health and to be left the fuck alone. SHREEN: Yeah, there’s no moral obligation. If people want to do so, then it’s up to them. It shouldn’t be … they shouldn’t have to do it if they don’t want to, but that’s what diet culture is saying. ANNA: Your body, your rules. SHREEN: And this part of her rant really, really … we know that she’s incredibly fatphobic and she fat shames, but it just came out so much in that where she was again talking, talking about size 16. And she’s saying “well, you know, if you’re a size 16 of course I love you but you’re not healthy”. Which is just … LOUISE: Get fucked. SHREEN: Yeah, absolute garbage. ANNA: Yeah. And Health at Every Size® also is about respect for all bodies, and I think there is a real lack of respect in just making that assumption. You can’t tell. How does she know what someone’s health is, you know? What their metabolic functions are, their blood work, their social, mental health … you can’t tell that by someone’s size. SHREEN: Genetics, everything. There’s so much, it’s so multifaceted. LOUISE: Everything I think is just far too complicated for her. She has to actually, like … I mean, clearly, she hasn’t read anything or thought about anything. “Nope, that’s a number, that’s an assumption, and don’t challenge that”.  SHREEN: Yeah. And if someone’s watching that, I mean, how triggering. How much harm that one comment could cause somebody that could lead them down a path of dieting and to an eating disorder. ANNA: And especially if they were already vulnerable of somebody who would identify with being in a size 16, or plus. And also, size 16 is quite variable depending on which shop you shop in, you know? Where you get your clothes from. What’s a size anyway? What does it matter? SHREEN: Yeah, it doesn’t matter. LOUISE: Size is not the same as health, and she needs to pull her head in. I wonder if her YouTube videos come with a trigger warning. I don’t think they do, but they should. Because good point, you know, that she … everything she says is potentially a trigger. SHREEN: Especially the size of her audience as well, I’m worried. ANNA: She’s got a big reach still. Some of the comments though were interesting, some really great points. People were talking about intuitive eating and picking up on that she doesn’t understand it, she’s missing the point. LOUISE: That is really reassuring. ANNA: She stopped the comments, she cut them off. LOUISE: Oh no, they were too complicated. ANNA: So, the next principle is ‘honour your hunger’, and she said something pretty radical here. Well, it’s not really radical in the fitness world. These numbers get thrown around a lot. But trigger warning, there are numbers here. She says, “if you’re trying to lose weight, you can keep your body fed on as low as 1200 calories”. And that most women, especially those over, you know, relating to being a certain age, shouldn’t be eating over 1600 calories a day. SHREEN: Which is just absolutely unbelievable. She’s saying that … I mean, that’s what a toddler needs. A toddler needs 1200-1600 calories a day. LOUISE: How very dare she tell me how much I can eat, under a principle that says, ‘honour your hunger’. ANNA: She … on one hand, I’m not surprised she threw those numbers out because those numbers are thrown out all the time in the fitness world. I don’t know where … MyFitnessPal? LOUISE: Are they really? SHREEN: We were saying, MyFitnessPal may have started the whole 1200 calories thing … LOUISE: I think Michelle Bridges is guilty of that too. ANNA: Oh actually, you’re right, she had a program that was based on that. LOUISE: It’s just a nice round number, isn’t it? Let’s just pluck this out of our arse and throw that at all women. ANNA: What I find there though is that like Shreen said, it’s something that a child needs. And I just wanted to double-check that, because I’m not a nutritionist, I’m a yogi and I run a studio, but I wanted to check with somebody who does work with that. I chatted to our non-diet nutritionist Nina and she clarified that yes - this is generalisation - but that kind of number is something that would serve a child. Like, a toddler or a four, five-year-old. And then thinking about the effects of being on a low-calorie diet for a long period, things like loss of menstrual cycle, loss of bone density, fatigue, mood swings, constipation, blood sugar imbalance, stress hormones getting out of whack … SHREEN: Sex drive … ANNA: Sex drive … what did you say before? SHREEN: Dry vagina (laughs). ANNA: She didn’t mention that, did she? SHREEN: No. LOUISE: No, but that might be suffering all of them, you know? And why she’s so grouchy. ANNA: Memory fog and brain fog … memory loss and brain fog. So, these are all things that can be affected by not being adequately fed. And the better indicator of your needs are your body and your internal hunger signals. And we’re taught to … these external sources of just following this rule plan of 1200 calories a day means that if I need more than that – maybe at the time of my period especially I might need much more - and I’m just denying my natural hunger levels. LOUISE: The whole ‘per day’ thing really gives me the shits as well. SHREEN: Yeah, that’s a really good point. LOUISE: This is just a statistical method to help researchers make assumptions about nutrition. It’s not supposed to be something religiously followed. SHREEN: No, there’s no … ANNA: An individual thing, yeah. LOUISE: It’s bizarre. But, isn’t that interesting that even as she’s like, she’s trying desperately, the poor little thing to understand that this is a principle of intuitive eating but she can’t quite get there because she immediately lurches into “well, if you want to lose weight …”. I just felt like reaching through the screen and saying, “realise that intuitive eating is not a weight loss program”. ANNA: That’s half the problem, is that she clearly thinks that the only people who explore intuitive eating are going for weight loss. She says that a few times. LOUISE: Oh, she’s a scrambled egg. ANNA: Yeah. She doesn’t understand that the whole purpose of intuitive eating is more about finding a peaceful relationship with food and your body, not about trying to pursue making your body be something, a certain size. SHREEN: It’s about food freedom, it’s about having a healthy relationship with food, stopping the obsession. It’s not … it’s definitely not following these external rules. It’s about being in tune with what your body wants and needs and getting in touch with those signals. LOUISE: Different planet, I don’t think she’s visited. SHREEN: I don’t think she understands what the ‘honouring hunger’ … it’s a basic self-care need. If you’re not honouring hunger … LOUISE: Again, you’re mentioning a foreign concept here. This is someone who will happily live with a dry vagina, it doesn’t matter. SHREEN: Yep (all laugh). LOUISE: We all went there. SHREEN: She just really doesn’t understand and that is the reason why … people don’t give themselves enough food and they’re following diet plans, and they’re going to give themselves cravings leading to overeating and bingeing, and that’s perfectly normal as well. Other than ‘rejecting the diet mentality’ one of the first steps of intuitive eating is to just honour your hunger and it’s so important. It’s self-care. ANNA: It's so liberating too, if you’re been on the diet bandwagon for many, many years, to recognise that “hey, my body’s got a lot of wisdom, and it’s telling me, it’s giving me messages and I can learn how to reconnect with that”. And I think part of the common thread that comes up with what she says all the time is that … she thinks it’s all about ‘you can’t trust your body’. I think an important thing that I’ve learned is you can really learn how to trust your body. We get into this as we move into the next principle or two. It’s not about endless eating and not being able to, you know, like you’re just not going to go out of control all the time, which is what she sort of thinks. SHREEN: Point number three is that ‘unconditional permission to eat all foods’. LOUISE: She really had a problem with principle three. Like, she was visibly … SHREEN: Yeah, and she started comparing it to smoking, and credit cards, and it’s like …what are you talking about? ANNA: So yeah, this ‘make peace with food’, you’re right. And she talks about saying, talking about the ‘last supper mentality’, and she says, “I’m not religious, I don’t know what Jesus ate”. LOUISE: She really needs to read some books. ANNA: She needs to read Intuitive Eating if she’s going to talk about it. Because if she read it, she might really understand what that means. I thought it was quite clear just from the ‘last supper mentality’, don’t you think? SHREEN: You just eat everything in sight. LOUISE: I don’t even think it has religious connotations, I thought it was like a death row thing. SHREEN: Oh, that’s true … LOUISE: Like eating your last meal. ANNA: That’s right. And it makes sense, I think, if you think about that. You know you’re not going to have something again, so you want to make the most of it in that moment. And ultimately that’s what it’s about. I think that’s kind of clear. But she didn’t understand that, she was sort of like “I don’t like this intense, this hostile approach”. And I’m like, you ARE intense and hostile.  LOUISE: How is that intense and hostile? I’ve not ever read the ten principles of intuitive eating and thought “gosh, that’s angry”. I mean, gosh. Visit the internet, really (all laugh). ANNA: I think she is the, again, the epitome diet culture, and she is the hostile one. Think about the Biggest Loser, she is very aggressive and in-your-face, pushing her clients. So, here she talks about it all being about self-control and willpower, and I think that’s missing the point of intuitive eating completely as well. LOUISE: She just can’t … SHREEN: She doesn’t understand. If she’d read the book, she would understand there’s science behind it as well, if she … LOUISE: I don’t think if she read the book she would understand.  SHREEN: Yeah (laughs) ANNA: I picked up on that too, she’s [inaudible]. LOUISE: She almost yelled “You do not permission to eat”. Which was quite scary. SHREEN: Because I think that reflects her inner narrative. That’s what’s going on in her head. LOUISE: Yeah. Not … not relaxed, that’s for sure. That response to the third point was quite unhinged. ANNA: And like you said, relating the food to credit cards or smoking, that’s a completely different thing. I don’t think … you know, food is something that we rely on, like biologically … SHREEN: We need food to survive, we need food … and intuitive eating is about healing your relationship to food, it’s about having a healthy relationship to food, and you can’t have that if you’re restricting foods. That’s why it’s really important to give yourself unconditional permission to eat. And yeah, it is scary. Of course. It’s scary when you’ve come from that mentality, but it’s the only way for food to lose its power. ANNA: Yeah. And I think it may be a good point to think about how it’s helpful to be handheld through that process. It can sound really scary to somebody who’s new to it, or who hasn’t delved into intuitive eating too much, or worked with a coach or therapist or something. Maybe working with a. dietitian on this would be really helpful. I understand how it can feel like that lack of control, but I think that’s a period that sometimes is part of that healing process. When you let go of the restriction, and allow yourself full unconditional permission to eat, then you might explore some of those foods that were off-limits for a period. And it might feel like you are diving into them a lot. But … LOUISE: Which is perfectly normal. SHREEN: Yeah. LOUISE: The last supper effect … like, that actually, now I remember. The ‘last supper’ effect, it is the paper by Herman and Polivy, “Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we diet”. That’s the ‘last supper’ effect. It’s a perfectly normal psychological response to restriction is to eat more. And the difference between that and going into massive credit card debt is if you keep giving yourself permission to eat, if you keep reminding yourself that the food’s always there, it’s perfectly safe and I’m allowed to eat it, you will naturally settle down when you get food safety. Eating is totally different to compulsive spending on credit cards. I think she’s just … a lot of people freak out when they let go of dieting and get into that all-or-nothing pattern with eating, but there’s like … a real difference between being in an all-or-nothing pattern of eating and adopting intuitive eating and going through that first phase of eating all the food. It’s just different, and its’ not pathological. It’s a normal response to restriction that obviously … she is so restricted and terrified of that. ANNA: It’s all about control, isn’t it? And I think that, you know, talking about the 1200-1600 calories, and I think she refers to that 1600 calories as something you should never, ever go over. So, as a woman, we’re meant to live our lives constantly not going above that. SHREEN: And it’s such a dangerous message. It’s just not enough food, at all. And it’s … and that’s what she’s selling to people, as well … LOUISE: She’s more like ‘honour your restriction’. SHREEN: Yeah! ANNA: We could reverse all of this and create a Jillian Michaels plan. LOUISE: The non-intuitive eating principles. Accept diet culture … what’s the second one? ANNA: Honour your hunger … don’t honour your hunger. LOUISE: Ignore your hunger. SHREEN: Ignore your hunger, yeah. LOUISE: Number three, you do not have permission to eat (all laugh). Alright, principle four? ANNA: Principle four is ‘challenge the food police’. LOUISE: Okay, so hers would be ‘obey the food police’. SHREEN: I don’t think she really understands that she is the food police. When she’s going through it? Like she is … the food police are all the things she’s already talked about. 1200 calories, 1600 calories, these are things that are the food police. ANNA: These are the rules. SHREEN: She doesn’t understand that principle at all. ANNA: The one thing that she said that I did agree with her on was “don’t beat yourself up”. I think she says it in a different way, she means it in a different way, because she kind of adds on and says, “don’t beat yourself up, but don’t fuck up”. Oh sorry. LOUISE:  Please, swear. ANNA: She says, not quite like that, but “maintain balance, it’s all about balance”. And don’t … SHREEN: And self-control. ANNA: So, “don’t beat yourself up, but just don’t do it”, sort of thing. SHREEN: Or, “you can do better”. She always says that, “you can do better”. ANNA: Yeah, so that message is like, it’s still that sort of shaming approach. SHREEN: Condescending. LOUISE: It makes no sense whatsoever. ANNA: But don’t beat yourself up, I mean, that’s important. LOUISE: You know what, ‘don’t beat yourself up’ means she knows people are not going to be able to do it.  ANNA: That’s a good point, yeah. Yeah, which she talks about the… LOUISE: … about going straight back to jail. ANNA: She talks about the stats, which is interesting. She brings up the stats. LOUISE: Oh, the stats. Yeah, that bit made me itchy. ANNA: That’s coming. It’s coming. The next one is ‘discover the satisfaction factor’, which I think she was actually in agreement with. SHREEN: Yeah, that one … she was saying, food for pleasure … I think that one was almost okay. ANNA: Like wow, okay, we agree. And then six was ‘feel your fullness’. And what came up here was again, it was just clear she hasn’t read the book because she didn’t understand that concept at all. LOUISE: She probably doesn’t know what fulness feels like. SHREEN: And then she started talking about how it’s in your head, and kind of went off … even I got a little bit lost with what she was saying. Like, “oh, we’re on fullness principle? I thought we were …” ANNA: She was kind of saying, yeah, she was kind of saying that if you’re not listening to your body, you’re not picking up your fullness levels, there’s something messed up in your head. And I was thinking, you know what? Sometimes I eat food and I’m quite satisfied physically but I’m still eating because the food’s really good, or I don’t want to … I’m eating in company and I don’t want to finish the meal and want to show that I’ve appreciated it … SHREEN: That’s the thing with intuitive eating, that it’s not the ‘hunger/fullness’ diet. And eating past fullness is normal. It’s totally okay. And it’s not just about eating, you know, getting in touch with your fullness signals. It’s about eating foods that give you pleasure and satisfaction. ANNA: Which is the ‘discover the satisfaction factor’. SHREEN: Which is the next one, but yeah. (sighs). LOUISE: God. So, if you can’t feel fullness, there’s something psychologically wrong with you.  ANNA: That’s the message that she’s giving, yeah. SHREEN: But not understanding that if you’re dieting or especially if you’re only eating those dangerous amount of calories a day, you’re going to be absolutely … LOUISE: You mean, like an adult [inaudible] SHREEN: (laughs). Absolutely starving and of course you’re not going to feel your fullness. But there’s nothing wrong with you, it’s just your body. Your body is doing exactly what it is meant to do. It needs food. ANNA: She doesn’t see that 1200-1600 calories as a restriction. She sees it as like … SHREEN: That’s her normal. ANNA: That’s food, that’s what you’re allowed during the day. LOUISE: So depressing. ANNA: Pretty sure I eat double or triple that. LOUISE: Oh, my goodness. ANNA: So, we’re at number seven. We’re still only … oh, over halfway. ‘Cope with your emotions with kindness’.  SHREEN: I think the thing is … LOUISE: That doesn’t really bring her to my mind. SHREEN: Yeah. She kind of goes “oh, yeah, I agree with this, but it shouldn’t just be one paragraph …”. And I’m like YES, there’s a BOOK. A book! There’s a whole book to go with this.  ANNA: She clearly seems to think it’s just this very basic, you know, overview … SHREEN: Guidelines. ANNA: Yeah, just these ten principles. She hasn’t read the book; she doesn’t know who wrote it. LOUISE: No, but this one really shat me to tears. Because this is where she’s saying that she’s had some childhood history with being maybe fractionally larger than someone else and has had to do, like … basically what she’s saying is that if you cannot lose weight and keep it off forever, that is your psychological fault. SHREEN: Yep. LOUISE: You haven’t done the work in therapy to fix your seemingly not thin body. Which is like, such a load of bullshit. And just unscientific and not sound whatsoever. And like you were saying before, people … she doesn’t understand that food is a relationship, and it’s a complex relationship. And the refusal to see anything other than like … she doesn’t even mention hunger as a reason to eat. Anything other than eating to a calorie control, anything else is incorrect. And we eat for an infinite amount of reasons and all of them make sense. And that’s what I love about intuitive eating, it doesn’t pathologise eating. It doesn’t pathologise hunger, it doesn’t pathologise fullness, and it doesn’t pathologise emotions as a reason to eat. And she clearly is. Seeing the function of how wonderful sometimes binge eating is as a way of protecting yourself from [inaudible] stuff. There’s no pathologizing in intuitive eating, but she’s full of pathologizing thinking that even to read statements like this, it doesn’t sink in. ANNA: She’s oversimplifying the whole thing; she doesn’t understand it at all. And this is where she moves into talking about the percentage of people that are successful versus not successful at diets. SHREEN: So, she acknowledges that 95-98% of diets fail. Is this where she starts talking about the Biggest Loser? ANNA: Yeah. SHREEN: She then starts talking about how the Biggest Loser, there’s a 30% extra success rate if you follow the Biggest Loser method. LOUISE: Really? SHREEN: Yeah. ANNA: So, she basically says, she acknowledges that the studies are very clear that 95% of people are unable to sustain a diet or sustain that weight loss, not a diet. But she says that actually on the Biggest Loser it’s only 65% of people that fail. So actually … SHREEN: So, she’s basically saying “we’ve got this success rate, if you do this …” LOUISE: Which study is this published in? Because the only study I’ve read from season 1 which is the … ANNA: The six-year study? SHREEN: The six year, yeah, really interesting. LOUISE: There were 16 people, and 14 of them regained. I don’t think that equates to 65%. Am I …? ANNA: I don’t know but even so … no, she says 35. So, 30% more than … she says 30%, 35% are successful. SHREEN: But even the fact that she’s now saying that 95-98% of diets fail, and she acknowledges that, but all that she’s been talking about is dieting. Diet the whole way through. She’s just completely contradicting herself. ANNA: Not only is it that they don’t work, but she continues to spruik it, continues to say that it’s possible, and if you do it her way, the Biggest Loser way … they did 7 hours of exercise a day, with gruelling regimes and being pushed and yelled at … LOUISE: And they all put the weight back on. ANNA: They put the weight back on. SHREEN: yeah. LOUISE: And their resting metabolic rate was screwed, six years later. SHREEN: Yeah, 700 calories it decreased by. They lost lean body mass, their fasting glucose increased, their blood sugar levels, yeah. They were the main things. But the fact that their metabolic rate decreased by such a large amount … especially where we were saying, she’s telling people to only eat 1200 calories but then you’re going to follow the Biggest Loser method, your metabolic rate’s going to drop by 700 calories, then what are you going to do? LOUISE: So, she lied about the stats on the Biggest Loser, and she’s not even talking to people about the metabolic impact. Because that study was fascinating, and I talk to clients about it. Because they predicted, the researchers predicted how much their resting metabolic rate would be dropped by …  ANNA: And what did they … LOUISE: And they found out it was even lower. So, they were worse off metabolically than they had predicted six years later. No one expected it to last that long, to have such a devastating impact. ANNA: Yeah, so it’s like a continued effect. It hasn’t regained back to before, pre … LOUISE: Exactly. And when stuff like that is suppressed, we know people are going to experience intense hunger, which of course you can’t honour. SHREEN: And the thing is, again, she’s completely misquoted this study herself but if she’d done her research she would know that there’s been over a hundred studies on intuitive eating that have been done that show you have better body image, higher esteem, improved metabolism, decreased rates of disordered and emotional eating, diminished stress levels and increased satisfaction with life. That’s over a hundred studies on intuitive eating that have been done. ANNA: And I’m pretty sure that you couldn’t say the same, with all of those positive effects, with dieting. LOUISE:  No, especially the ones that use her supplements, which show that everyone puts the weight back on. And the Biggest Loser study, everyone puts the weight back on … but let’s not focus on whether or not the weight comes back on. It’s actually the damage to the body and the metabolic systems that’s just absent from her rant. SHREEN: And not even the psychological damage, that’s not even mentioned. LOUISE: She’s evidence of the psychological damage. SHREEN: Yeah. That is true, yeah. ANNA: So, the next one is … principle eight, respect your body. LOUISE: Oh, fuck. ANNA: So, I think going back to when she spoke about size 16 always equalling healthiness, I think that shows that she doesn’t have respect for all bodies. And that kind of bothers me a bit. SHREEN. A bit. A lot. ANNA: It’s a big part of like, you know, our approach here and being a Health at Every Size® professional, you know? It’s about honouring and understanding and respecting that all bodies are different and need something different. SHREEN: And that you can’t tell somebody’s health by their body size, and that’s such … it’s a huge misconception as it is, let alone, I mean, Jillian Michaels saying this and it’s just … ANNA: Yeah, and just recognising that bodies are diverse, and they will do different things. Your health looks different at different points in your life. What you need changes day to day, and only your body really knows. You know? No external source, no trainer, no Jillian Michaels, no Dr Oz, nobody knows your body. SHREEN: And the whole principle of respecting your body is about being kind to yourself and compassionate and self-care, which is the complete opposite of Jillian Michaels. Like, she is just not kind. She’s not compassionate. She’s just shaming, judgemental, mean. Like … yeah. She’s … I just don’t think she even understands the word ‘respect’, quite frankly. LOUISE: Unless it’s like ‘respect my authority”. SHREEN: Yeah. ANNA: Something I noticed too, that came up before, was that because she’s so invested in it … have you heard of the concept of religion, like dieting? The religion of dieting? She’s so completely invested in it, she’s almost not willing to look the other way, or explore that there might be some truth in this, because she’s so invested, like financially and that’s her way of living … LOUISE: It’s her identity. ANNA: Exactly. LOUISE: It’s interesting, isn’t it? I think Alan Levinovitz, ‘The Gluten Lie’ … ANNA: That’s the guy. LOUISE: He talks about this, the religion of diet mentality. She is definitely the Pope. SHREEN: Quote of the day (all laugh). ANNA: So, then we come into ‘movement, feel the difference’. Which is principle nine. SHREEN: I think this one really got us fired up, didn’t it? ANNA: Well, the first thing that she said was like, “what is this? I don’t know what this ‘militant exercise’ even means”. LOUISE: That’s so funny (all laugh). ANNA: Like, really? Are you sure? LOUISE: She’s like, world-famous on memes for [inaudible]. I think I even did a presentation once where I used her with her finger in her face at someone as a demonstration of militant exercise. ANNA: Yeah, the kind of exercise that you don’t want to do if you want to have a sustainable relationship with movement. LOUISE: Yeah, your name’s on the t-shirt, love. SHREEN: Just telling people in this thing that, you know, this myth that’s just not true – ‘no pain, no gain’, that only hard exercise counts, it’s just utter rubbish. All movement counts, it doesn’t matter what it is. From playing with your kids, to hoovering, to dancing around your living room. LOUISE: Hoovering doesn’t count, I don’t even know what hoovering is … ANNA: She’s talking about hoovering, the hoover … SHREEN: Vacuuming, is that more Aussie? LOUISE: No, I don’t understand. (all laugh). SHREEN: But like, movement can be anything and you get the exact same health benefits from any type of regular movement, doesn’t matter what it is. But what she’s just trying to … she’s just bringing movement and aesthetics, that’s what she’s talking about. She’s talking about … ANNA: That’s a really good point, because if she was really interested in somebody’s health, then any kind of movement would be accessible, you know, like … SHREEN: Beneficial. ANNA: Helpful, yeah. SHREEN: Your blood markers, and stress levels, and sleep, it doesn’t matter what it is, it has the same health benefits. But she’s not talking about health. She’s talking about the way you look. ANNA: Yeah. She’s talking about ‘results’ a lot, and “if you want to get results fast” … because you know, let’s face it, she says “if you’re coming to look at intuitive eating, you’re trying to lose weight, you’re trying to get results fast.” LOUISE: Jillian! ANNA: “You’ve got to do a certain type of exercise, and my programs do that”. So, a little bit of spruiking her own programs too. SHREEN: What she doesn’t realise that she’s doing is having that negative relationship with exercise is not going to make people want to do it.  LOUISE: She doesn’t care about that. SHREEN: She’s the reason why people don’t want to go to the gym, or they hate exercise, because of people like Jillian Michaels. ANNA: Yeah, it’s that fitness trauma that you were talking about before. And what I recognise here, at the studio at Haven, community … in my experience, community has always been really powerful in building that sustainable and healthful relationship with movement. Joy and … SHREEN: And it’s that you enjoy, you [inaudible]. ANNA: And to want to come back, too. And that militant approach might work well for someone who responds to that but maybe for a short time. And then that motivation kind of wanes. And then it’s always trying to get back the motivation, you hear that a lot in fitness culture. But if you’re not coming at it from external, an external place, for external purposes, and it’s more about the … SHREEN: The way it makes you feel, using it as a tool for self-care rather than punishment … ANNA: Your mental health, having fun with your friends, it’s a completely different experience to being yelled at by Jillian Michaels. SHREEN: Her whole thing is yelling at people, making them feel guilty, punishing them. Like, and that’s just not what people need in a fitness professional. They need someone who is kind and compassionate and she’s just … that’s just not her, unfortunately. She’s just giving … ANNA: What is she? She’s the Pope of … the religion of dieting. She’s also the epitome of diet culture. She’s all of those things. And then the last principle is gentle nutrition, principle ten. LOUISE: I think this actually blew up her brain. SHREEN: Yeah, because she couldn’t understand the whole diet … principle one, principle ten … LOUISE: She couldn’t figure out how that fits with unconditional permission to eat. Because of course, if you have unconditional permission to eat, you’re going to stick your face into a burger for the rest of your life.  ANNA: Yeah, so again she thinks it’s all just endless eating. LOUISE: She’s stuck in that ‘all or nothing’ mentality. ANNA: Exactly, yeah. SHREEN: It’s funny, because she talks about that ‘black and white, all or nothing’ mentality and not understanding that’s exactly what she’s saying. Yeah. ANNA: Yeah, and again it came up just very, very clear that she hasn’t read the book, she doesn’t really know what she’s talking about. SHREEN: Yeah, I think that’s the main … ANNA: This is when she said, you know, “it’s probably written by someone who has just really been hurt by diet culture and probably had an eating disorder, and, you know, probably just some random” and actually … LOUISE: Such a shame that she didn’t actually look at the author. SHREEN: Yeah, just even look up to who they were. Yeah. ANNA: It’s a little bit disappointing because you’d think somebody who has such a following, I think, has such a … I think there’s a moral obligation in a way to represent something that … when you have such a big following and you’re sharing something that can affect people deeply … SHREEN: It’s what we say, that she’s really coming from that dieting mentality and all that sort of shaming that she doesn’t understand that intuitive eating at its core is a self-care model. It’s very compassionate and she doesn’t understand that. Also. with intuitive eating, we’re not saying that it’s a solution for everybody. Everyone has the right to do what they want with their body. She just doesn’t understand the concept at all, what it stands for. ANNA: It’s like she’s on such a different planet, and it’s not … doesn’t come across as open to exploring that this might be something that really serves people. SHREEN: Yeah, and that it’s having such a positive impact. We talked about earlier with the … ANNA: Feeling a bit threatened by the impact on her, you know, her … LOUISE: To her bottom line. I also think that, I mean, if she really is undernourished to that point that she has restricted her entire life, one of the things that happens when you’re weight supressed is cognitive rigidity. ANNA: That’s a really good point. LOUISE: So, it’s quite hard to be flexible. We see that a lot with people who are suffering in the depths of Anorexia, that you simply cannot think. And perhaps there’s an element of that that’s happening here. ANNA: That’s really interesting. SHREEN: That’s a really good point. Because what dieting, that kind of restriction is doing to you … LOUISE: Well, it gives her massive benefits. Huge amounts of recognition, it gives her income. She can’t think out of it. So, there’s not a lot of reason for her, like … I think the reason for putting up that video wasn’t a genuine exploration of “what’s this thing called ‘intuitive eating’?”.  SHREEN: It was just to … LOUISE: It was just to kind of … ANNA: Debunk it. LOUISE: To debunk it and keep hold of her customer base. Look, let’s assume that she is interested in the book. Jillian Michael’s house is in Malibu, California. I reckon we just whack a copy in an envelope, address it to her, maybe she’ll read it. ANNA: Do you think?  LOUISE: Yeah? I don’t know. Maybe if all of our listeners whack a copy into an envelope … SHREEN: Yeah!  LOUISE: 20 copies, please read. Maybe. SHREEN: Maybe, yeah. LOUISE: But I don’t think that was anything other than a … it’s quite interesting, I’m seeing this more and more. The famous people, the people who have really invested in diet culture, even the obesity researchers and all of that. They’re all kind of getting a little bit nervous about this pushback. SHREEN: They should be. LOUISE: It makes me feel warm and fuzzy. SHREEN: It’s time. LOUISE: It’s got nothing to do with the champagne. I think the celebs are getting nervous, like “what do you mean, people in larger bodies are okay with themselves just the way they are?”. And finding non weight-loss things to look after themselves, oh my gosh. What a huge, horrible threat. So, we’re not sorry, Jillian, that we made you nervous. ANNA: Agreed. I hope it gives her a little bit of food for thought (all laugh). LOUISE: I don’t know how many calories would be attached to that thought (all laugh). ANNA: I have to say, like, the thing that I think fires me up the most is how fatphobic she is. SHREEN: And how much harm … that’s the thing that fired me up the most, how much harm she’s causing people out there. And having had an eating disorder myself, it’s just … LOUISE: Horrible. You can see how triggering it is. SHREEN: I can see what it can do, yeah. That’s what fires me up. LOUISE: and let’s not forget when we say fatphobic, we mean people who hate fat people. And that is really reflective … even though she is professing “oh, I’m going to love you … but you’re unhealthy so change”. That’s troubling. Using health as a halo, an excuse or a reason for my core treatment of you just based on your appearance. And that’s just … those days are done. You can’t do that anymore. It’s just not cool. And I do wonder if there is like a Biggest Loser university somewhere?  ANNA: Michelle Bridges went to it as well. LOUISE: Because the same kind of hatred of fat people, you know … again, like masked with a thin layer of concern trolling for your health was Michelle Bridges’ thing. Four years ago, when she was on Australian Story and she was saying “I’m yet to meet someone who is morbidly obese and happy”. So, for people who are listening from overseas, Michelle Bridges is the Australian version of Jillian Michaels. And what an awful comment. So, Jillian has been pushed back against from this video, right? Michelle was pushed back against from this video too, with really clear … I know we all live in a bubble, but with quite a lot of push back. ANNA: That’s good. Was she on … was that on like Australian primetime TV? SHREEN: She was on Australian Story. LOUISE: Yeah [inaudible] … it shows how deeply she feels [inaudible] about people she’s profiting from. Putting them through three cycles a year of 1200 calorie program and she knows it doesn’t work. But the thing is, what they do is they double down. People like this double down, when they’re called out, when there’s a pushback. Instead of kind of opening up and say, “okay, I should probably issue an apology, maybe take the video down, maybe do some work”. They’re not doing that. Jillian’s not doing that. ANNA: I think she just keeps responding. And she’s just responding with the same rhetoric, so she’s not … SHREEN: I think she kind of comments that [inaudible], to learn about it more, which is a shame. ANNA: And how did Michele Bridges respond? LOUISE: Doubled down on it. About health, “I care deeply about health”. ANNA: The whole thing with health and weight, this is what really frustrates me about it too. If she’s really interested in health, she could support all the behaviours that support someone’s health. LOUISE: Too complicated. Remember? Too complicated. Anything that actually involves having to think about something other than my own diet plan … ANNA: It makes me realise how happy I’ve become in moving away from all this, that’s why I got away from it. Because I learned about how there’s another way. Intuitive eating, Health at Every Size®, the body positivity movement … I started delving into it and it just felt so triggering being around other fitness professionals from the traditional approach. And this here, I’ve got to say, got me so fired up. I’m going to be fired up for a while from this. SHREEN: We talk about fitness trauma, and Jillian Michaels is causing that. LOUISE: May she go the way of the dinosaurs and … (all laugh). ANNA: Well, hopefully there will be less and less of her to be seen in the future and more and more of kind of this messaging coming up, challenging … LOUISE: Absolutely, I absolutely think that’s going to happen. You’ve just reminded me actually, she … because Jillian, earlier in the year before she posted the nasty intuitive eating thing, she said something nasty about Lizzo. SHREEN: Yeah, of course.  ANNA: That sounds familiar … SHREEN: Yeah. That was before …  LOUISE: A little while before, I don’t know. It’s Covid, none of us have a timeline. ANNA: She’s said some pretty horrendous things. SHREEN: Really horrendous things yeah. LOUISE: Again, like … “she’s clearly going to get diabetes” or something? ANNA: I think she said something along the lines of “there’s nothing sexy about diabetes”, or clogged arteries or something.  SHREEN: Something like that, yeah. ANNA: How can she … that’s so inappropriate. Lizzo’s bouncing away on stage. She’s got stamina, she’s got energy.  SHREEN: We don’t know anything about her or her health. ANNA: And why do we have to talk about that anyway? She’s this amazing performer and doing this really cool stuff. It’s wonderful to see some diverse bodies out there that are getting out there as much as the other, the thin ideal that you see everywhere. LOUISE: Yeah, the comments that she made were like “why are we talking about Lizzo’s body, we should be talking about her music”. ANNA: So, she said that? LOUISE: Yeah. ANNA: But then … LOUISE: And it’s really funny, because she’s saying that we shouldn’t be talking about Lizzo’s body, but her entire website is full of shots of her body. ANNA: Yeah, and that’s her thing. SHREEN: That’s her thing, yeah. ANNA: She’s always talking about people’s bodies. Size 16, yeah. SHREEN: Yeah, non-stop. LOUISE: The point I’m making is that you don’t say that about Lizzo. And the pushback she got after she made that comment? This is the future Jillian. Lizzo is setting the world on fire.  ANNA: We need more Lizzo. SHREEN: We need more Lizzo. LOUISE: and you are the biggest loser. ANNA: Well put. LOUISE: Oh my god, let’s finish on a high note. Thank you, guys, that was an elegant unpacking of Jillian Michael’s ten principles of not understanding intuitive eating (all laugh). And how firmly we can steer the ship to this new awesome way of looking after our body. ANNA: Thank you. SHREEN: Thank you.  Resources Mentioned: (Watch if you can stomach) Jillian Michaels' Igno-rant on Youtube Urbszat, Dax, C. Peter Herman, and Janet Polivy. "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we diet: Effects of anticipated deprivation on food intake in restrained and unrestrained eaters." Journal of abnormal psychology 111.2 (2002): 396. News article about 4 lawsuits against Jillian Michaels for her weight loss pills Fothergill, Erin, et al. "Persistent metabolic adaptation 6 years after “The Biggest Loser” competition." Obesity 24.8 (2016): 1612-1619. Alan Levinovitz's The Gluten Lie Find out more about Anna Hearn & Haven Find out more about Shreen El Masry and Be You Be Free  

There's nothing more infuriating than when people throw shade at the anti-diet perspective without bothering to actually research it. When "The Biggest Loser" trainer/shameless fatphobe Jillian Michaels arrogantly released a Youtube clip trashing the 10 principles of intuitive eating, WITHOUT EVEN READING THE BOOK, she REALLY pi***ed off the community! And none more so than my guests, anti-diet fitness trainers Anna Hearn and Shreen El Masry, who have been dying to come on the podcast and set the record straight! Finally the COVID window opened just a crack so I could record the very first IN PERSON podcast! Join us as we dissect Jillian's often hilarious inability to comprehend a life beyond diet prison. WHAT ON EARTH IS THIS 'PERMISSION TO EAT!!' It seems the lady doth protest too much - could it be that the Queen of Diet Prison is sensing the paradigm-shifting power of the anti-diet revolution? That's right folks, the unrivalled reign of Biggest Loser-esque terror is over!! Vive La Difference! Please note - this episode comes with a hefty side serve of calorie count discussions, so if you're in recovery from an eating disorder please consider your level of spoons to hear the diet talk. But, if you've had a gutful of igno-rants about anti-dieting, it's time to get ALL FIRED UP! Show Transcript:   LOUISE: So, here I am with Anna and Shreen. Thank you so much for coming on the show. ANNA: Thank you for having us. SHREEN: Yeah, thank you so much. LOUISE: It’s so exciting to be alive with actual humans in the room, and slightly weird. Why don’t you guys tell me all about what is firing you up? ANNA: We’re really fired up about Jillian Michaels and her aggressive fatphobic rant on intuitive eating. LOUISE: (sighs) First of all, I have to say I love how you say ‘rant’, it’s very proper and awesome. But yes, Jillian Michaels – Biggest Loser trainer in the United States. Horrendously fatphobic. ANNA: Yeah, I mean … she got her living, she makes her living from shaming fat bodies. I think that tells a lot about her character and where she’s going to go with her intuitive eating rant. LOUISE: So, she was on the Biggest Loser for years and years and years. Her website … well, she’s touting herself as the world’s best trainer. Like, the biggest expert in the world on all things fitness. Which, well … this is just a hunch, but I could find people on the planet who are more qualified. ANNA: Well, if you want to break down her qualifications, I think it looks like she’s done a couple of personal training qualifications, a couple of fitness qualifications and … SHREEN: One ‘woo woo’ nutrition qualification. ANNA: There is a nutrition qualification there too, but it doesn’t look like there’s any degrees or anything. So, when it comes to intuitive eating and looking at all of that, when we go into it you’ll realise, I think, that she hasn’t really done her research. She doesn’t understand it. And I think it’s interesting that somebody without that nutrition background or lived experience with that sort of thing talks about it the way that she does. SHREEN: I think as well, not only does she come across really aggressive and shaming, also I think her insecurity is really coming out in this video. Intuitive eating is a movement that’s really starting to take off, and she’s clearly threatened by it. You can see her defence mechanism is up, and she’s … you know, really, just … her demeanour is just awful. LOUISE: It's hard to tell, though, if her demeanour’s just awful because she’s defensive or because her demeanour’s just awful. SHREEN: Yeah, that’s true. ANNA: I kind of picked up on that and thought she was sensing a threat because intuitive eating is becoming more mainstream, people are becoming more aware of it. So that could threaten what she does, because she makes a living forcing people to lose weight. LOUISE: So, during the 90’s and the early 2000’s, like … it was a free-for-all with bullying people with larger bodies, as we saw. World-wide, the Biggest Loser was the number one show, and everyone thought it was okay. So, she’s had this unfettered ability to be horrible about body size and really belittling of people in larger bodies. And now, I think she’s realising it’s not okay to keep on doing that. ANNA: The backlash about it. LOUISE: So, just to set the stage. What we’re seeing … because I did see the internet blow up. It was a while ago now, but let’s face it - we’ve all been in iso and unable to talk to each other. So, she has like a YouTube channel and one of her YouTube little presentations - I don’t watch what she does, just for my own mental health - but this one was Jillian Michaels talking about intuitive eating. Which, oh my god … let’s just get Donald Trump talking about sexism. ANNA: That’s a great analogy. SHREEN: She’s basically, I think she’s just gone on the website and just pulled up the principles without doing any research into it or even understanding there’s over a hundred studies done on intuitive eating and there’s a whole book as well. She just went on there, read out these principles and gave her, I guess, her opinion.  ANNA: It became really clear that she hasn’t taken the time to understand it. She hasn’t learnt about the authors; you’ll see as she comes to the end of it, she talks about assuming that it was written by somebody who had just had some bad experience with diet culture, maybe had an eating disorder LOUISE: Oh my god, that’s so disrespectful SHREEN: So disrespectful. ANNA: No understanding or bothering to explore that the authors are actually dietitians who had come up with this approach because they had done so much work with clients who had struggled a lot and this is what they’d learnt from working with them over years and years. LOUISE: These are the gurus. Like, Tribole and Resch, they wrote the initial book Intuitive Eating and it’s just been updated, which is fantastic. But even that, even their book which is written from that perspective of helping people recover from eating disorders, that book is built on another big long history of social justice and fat activism. To not recognise that intuitive eating is part of a social movement and like, the way she presented it is like, she just stumbled across a webpage and … oh my god. ANNA: Definitely, yeah. And it came across very, very condescending. I felt really bothered … SHREEN: It’s so harmful, as well. That was the thing that really bothered me the most, was how much … I mean, she causes so much harm anyway, but the message was just next level harm. And if anyone was watching that and had no idea, the things that she was saying … yeah, it’s just not on. LOUISE: Oh god, yikes. So, we thought we would unpick Jillian Michael’s feelpinion to each of the ten principles of intuitive eating. And you guys have written some awesomely detailed notes. ANNA: We had a really good chat about it. LOUISE: Fantastic. But I’m so interested, because you guys both work in this industry as HAES® positive, body inclusive, weight neutral trainers hearing from almost like the personification of diet culture woman. SHREEN: She is the reason why people have so much fitness trauma and so much negative association with fitness. She’s causing that. ANNA: She is the epitome of diet culture. SHREEN: Yeah, she is the epitome of diet culture, for sure. ANNA: And I think we chatted about this as we were hanging out one day, and we just came across this as a topic that fired both of us up. And it’s frustrating when you see … when you’re so heavily involved in this space, and the HAES® space, and the body inclusive space, it can be … and luckily for me working here at Haven, this is the space I come to work every day. So, I’m not exposed to traditional diet culture unless I stumble across it or it’s brought to my attention. So, I couldn’t help but just be really quite wild about this. LOUISE: I love it. I mean, I don’t love that you’re wild, but I kind of do. But, yeah. It’s nice to know that in this industry there are people who feel really strongly about just putting an end to this. She’s what’s wrong with the fitness industry at the moment, and you guys are the future. And I think she can smell that. So, I think, like I … I managed to watch it and still shaking with rage but thank you for this glass of champagne. ANNA: I don’t think we could do this without a little bit of champagne. SHREEN: No, we need some bubbles. LOUISE: The first thing she starts with, so she’s actually going through all the principles. SHREEN:  Correct. LOUISE: Why don’t you give me the lowdown on your reaction. ANNA: Let’s kick off. So, she does go through the points one by one, and the first principle is ‘reject the diet mentality’. And I just want to point out a few things that came up for me that were just so apparent throughout. Her fatphobia is so clear. She’s driven, everything she says, and her approach is all drive by this. And I think she’s very ignorant, like she doesn’t see that there’s an issue with this. She comes form that space where it’s very normalised to shame fat bodies, it’s not okay to be in a bigger body. And she very clearly associates weight and health, they’re so closely tied, which I think it really problematic, obviously. So, in this ‘reject diet mentality’, what came up for you, Shreen? SHREEN: Well, the first thing for me was that she couldn’t distinguish a difference between fad diets and what dieting is, and diet culture. She’s like, “oh you know, if it’s fad diets we’re talking about yeah, yeah sure”, but this is a woman who has sold supplements in the past. LOUISE: She’s sold fad diets. SHREEN: She’s sold fad diets. And she is diet culture, so I guess she can’t … she doesn’t understand what diet culture actually is and why it’s so important to reject it. I mean, diet culture in the US alone is worth 70 billion dollars. ANNA:  She profits off it. SHREEN: She profits off everyone’s insecurities. So, she was just like, “reject diet culture? What’s this, what does this mean?”. And I really did sense there that her insecurity is coming out there because that is her, that’s how she makes her money. ANNA: Well that’s it, she’s really incentivised to support diet culture.  LOUISE: But the distinction that she made between “well, if it’s fad, but if it’s proper” … it just made me laugh, because she’s had no less than four separate lawsuits … ANNA:  Jillian? SHREEN: Yeah. LOUISE: Launched against her by her consumers who bought her caffeine-fuelled diet pills. ANNA: Which I think she might have … there might have been something on the Biggest Loser where she gave them to contestants unfairly, apparently, as well. LOUISE: Oh my god, scandal on the Biggest Loser. Like … ANNA: Well, the other thing that came up for me there was she said, “what is this, healthy at any size?”, and that’s immediately a red flag representing that she doesn’t know what she’s talking about. She hasn’t researched this because … I can understand it’s very easy to misconstrue Health At Every Size® for healthy at every size, but it’s quite a different meaning and that assumption that, you know, just assuming that we’re saying as a Health at Every Size® professional that all bodies are healthy, that’s not where we’re aiming. We’re talking about people being able to pursue health regardless of shape and size. LOUISE: Or, also, we’re talking about the choice not to pursue health and to be left the fuck alone. SHREEN: Yeah, there’s no moral obligation. If people want to do so, then it’s up to them. It shouldn’t be … they shouldn’t have to do it if they don’t want to, but that’s what diet culture is saying. ANNA: Your body, your rules. SHREEN: And this part of her rant really, really … we know that she’s incredibly fatphobic and she fat shames, but it just came out so much in that where she was again talking, talking about size 16. And she’s saying “well, you know, if you’re a size 16 of course I love you but you’re not healthy”. Which is just … LOUISE: Get fucked. SHREEN: Yeah, absolute garbage. ANNA: Yeah. And Health at Every Size® also is about respect for all bodies, and I think there is a real lack of respect in just making that assumption. You can’t tell. How does she know what someone’s health is, you know? What their metabolic functions are, their blood work, their social, mental health … you can’t tell that by someone’s size. SHREEN: Genetics, everything. There’s so much, it’s so multifaceted. LOUISE: Everything I think is just far too complicated for her. She has to actually, like … I mean, clearly, she hasn’t read anything or thought about anything. “Nope, that’s a number, that’s an assumption, and don’t challenge that”.  SHREEN: Yeah. And if someone’s watching that, I mean, how triggering. How much harm that one comment could cause somebody that could lead them down a path of dieting and to an eating disorder. ANNA: And especially if they were already vulnerable of somebody who would identify with being in a size 16, or plus. And also, size 16 is quite variable depending on which shop you shop in, you know? Where you get your clothes from. What’s a size anyway? What does it matter? SHREEN: Yeah, it doesn’t matter. LOUISE: Size is not the same as health, and she needs to pull her head in. I wonder if her YouTube videos come with a trigger warning. I don’t think they do, but they should. Because good point, you know, that she … everything she says is potentially a trigger. SHREEN: Especially the size of her audience as well, I’m worried. ANNA: She’s got a big reach still. Some of the comments though were interesting, some really great points. People were talking about intuitive eating and picking up on that she doesn’t understand it, she’s missing the point. LOUISE: That is really reassuring. ANNA: She stopped the comments, she cut them off. LOUISE: Oh no, they were too complicated. ANNA: So, the next principle is ‘honour your hunger’, and she said something pretty radical here. Well, it’s not really radical in the fitness world. These numbers get thrown around a lot. But trigger warning, there are numbers here. She says, “if you’re trying to lose weight, you can keep your body fed on as low as 1200 calories”. And that most women, especially those over, you know, relating to being a certain age, shouldn’t be eating over 1600 calories a day. SHREEN: Which is just absolutely unbelievable. She’s saying that … I mean, that’s what a toddler needs. A toddler needs 1200-1600 calories a day. LOUISE: How very dare she tell me how much I can eat, under a principle that says, ‘honour your hunger’. ANNA: She … on one hand, I’m not surprised she threw those numbers out because those numbers are thrown out all the time in the fitness world. I don’t know where … MyFitnessPal? LOUISE: Are they really? SHREEN: We were saying, MyFitnessPal may have started the whole 1200 calories thing … LOUISE: I think Michelle Bridges is guilty of that too. ANNA: Oh actually, you’re right, she had a program that was based on that. LOUISE: It’s just a nice round number, isn’t it? Let’s just pluck this out of our arse and throw that at all women. ANNA: What I find there though is that like Shreen said, it’s something that a child needs. And I just wanted to double-check that, because I’m not a nutritionist, I’m a yogi and I run a studio, but I wanted to check with somebody who does work with that. I chatted to our non-diet nutritionist Nina and she clarified that yes - this is generalisation - but that kind of number is something that would serve a child. Like, a toddler or a four, five-year-old. And then thinking about the effects of being on a low-calorie diet for a long period, things like loss of menstrual cycle, loss of bone density, fatigue, mood swings, constipation, blood sugar imbalance, stress hormones getting out of whack … SHREEN: Sex drive … ANNA: Sex drive … what did you say before? SHREEN: Dry vagina (laughs). ANNA: She didn’t mention that, did she? SHREEN: No. LOUISE: No, but that might be suffering all of them, you know? And why she’s so grouchy. ANNA: Memory fog and brain fog … memory loss and brain fog. So, these are all things that can be affected by not being adequately fed. And the better indicator of your needs are your body and your internal hunger signals. And we’re taught to … these external sources of just following this rule plan of 1200 calories a day means that if I need more than that – maybe at the time of my period especially I might need much more - and I’m just denying my natural hunger levels. LOUISE: The whole ‘per day’ thing really gives me the shits as well. SHREEN: Yeah, that’s a really good point. LOUISE: This is just a statistical method to help researchers make assumptions about nutrition. It’s not supposed to be something religiously followed. SHREEN: No, there’s no … ANNA: An individual thing, yeah. LOUISE: It’s bizarre. But, isn’t that interesting that even as she’s like, she’s trying desperately, the poor little thing to understand that this is a principle of intuitive eating but she can’t quite get there because she immediately lurches into “well, if you want to lose weight …”. I just felt like reaching through the screen and saying, “realise that intuitive eating is not a weight loss program”. ANNA: That’s half the problem, is that she clearly thinks that the only people who explore intuitive eating are going for weight loss. She says that a few times. LOUISE: Oh, she’s a scrambled egg. ANNA: Yeah. She doesn’t understand that the whole purpose of intuitive eating is more about finding a peaceful relationship with food and your body, not about trying to pursue making your body be something, a certain size. SHREEN: It’s about food freedom, it’s about having a healthy relationship with food, stopping the obsession. It’s not … it’s definitely not following these external rules. It’s about being in tune with what your body wants and needs and getting in touch with those signals. LOUISE: Different planet, I don’t think she’s visited. SHREEN: I don’t think she understands what the ‘honouring hunger’ … it’s a basic self-care need. If you’re not honouring hunger … LOUISE: Again, you’re mentioning a foreign concept here. This is someone who will happily live with a dry vagina, it doesn’t matter. SHREEN: Yep (all laugh). LOUISE: We all went there. SHREEN: She just really doesn’t understand and that is the reason why … people don’t give themselves enough food and they’re following diet plans, and they’re going to give themselves cravings leading to overeating and bingeing, and that’s perfectly normal as well. Other than ‘rejecting the diet mentality’ one of the first steps of intuitive eating is to just honour your hunger and it’s so important. It’s self-care. ANNA: It's so liberating too, if you’re been on the diet bandwagon for many, many years, to recognise that “hey, my body’s got a lot of wisdom, and it’s telling me, it’s giving me messages and I can learn how to reconnect with that”. And I think part of the common thread that comes up with what she says all the time is that … she thinks it’s all about ‘you can’t trust your body’. I think an important thing that I’ve learned is you can really learn how to trust your body. We get into this as we move into the next principle or two. It’s not about endless eating and not being able to, you know, like you’re just not going to go out of control all the time, which is what she sort of thinks. SHREEN: Point number three is that ‘unconditional permission to eat all foods’. LOUISE: She really had a problem with principle three. Like, she was visibly … SHREEN: Yeah, and she started comparing it to smoking, and credit cards, and it’s like …what are you talking about? ANNA: So yeah, this ‘make peace with food’, you’re right. And she talks about saying, talking about the ‘last supper mentality’, and she says, “I’m not religious, I don’t know what Jesus ate”. LOUISE: She really needs to read some books. ANNA: She needs to read Intuitive Eating if she’s going to talk about it. Because if she read it, she might really understand what that means. I thought it was quite clear just from the ‘last supper mentality’, don’t you think? SHREEN: You just eat everything in sight. LOUISE: I don’t even think it has religious connotations, I thought it was like a death row thing. SHREEN: Oh, that’s true … LOUISE: Like eating your last meal. ANNA: That’s right. And it makes sense, I think, if you think about that. You know you’re not going to have something again, so you want to make the most of it in that moment. And ultimately that’s what it’s about. I think that’s kind of clear. But she didn’t understand that, she was sort of like “I don’t like this intense, this hostile approach”. And I’m like, you ARE intense and hostile.  LOUISE: How is that intense and hostile? I’ve not ever read the ten principles of intuitive eating and thought “gosh, that’s angry”. I mean, gosh. Visit the internet, really (all laugh). ANNA: I think she is the, again, the epitome diet culture, and she is the hostile one. Think about the Biggest Loser, she is very aggressive and in-your-face, pushing her clients. So, here she talks about it all being about self-control and willpower, and I think that’s missing the point of intuitive eating completely as well. LOUISE: She just can’t … SHREEN: She doesn’t understand. If she’d read the book, she would understand there’s science behind it as well, if she … LOUISE: I don’t think if she read the book she would understand.  SHREEN: Yeah (laughs) ANNA: I picked up on that too, she’s [inaudible]. LOUISE: She almost yelled “You do not permission to eat”. Which was quite scary. SHREEN: Because I think that reflects her inner narrative. That’s what’s going on in her head. LOUISE: Yeah. Not … not relaxed, that’s for sure. That response to the third point was quite unhinged. ANNA: And like you said, relating the food to credit cards or smoking, that’s a completely different thing. I don’t think … you know, food is something that we rely on, like biologically … SHREEN: We need food to survive, we need food … and intuitive eating is about healing your relationship to food, it’s about having a healthy relationship to food, and you can’t have that if you’re restricting foods. That’s why it’s really important to give yourself unconditional permission to eat. And yeah, it is scary. Of course. It’s scary when you’ve come from that mentality, but it’s the only way for food to lose its power. ANNA: Yeah. And I think it may be a good point to think about how it’s helpful to be handheld through that process. It can sound really scary to somebody who’s new to it, or who hasn’t delved into intuitive eating too much, or worked with a coach or therapist or something. Maybe working with a. dietitian on this would be really helpful. I understand how it can feel like that lack of control, but I think that’s a period that sometimes is part of that healing process. When you let go of the restriction, and allow yourself full unconditional permission to eat, then you might explore some of those foods that were off-limits for a period. And it might feel like you are diving into them a lot. But … LOUISE: Which is perfectly normal. SHREEN: Yeah. LOUISE: The last supper effect … like, that actually, now I remember. The ‘last supper’ effect, it is the paper by Herman and Polivy, “Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we diet”. That’s the ‘last supper’ effect. It’s a perfectly normal psychological response to restriction is to eat more. And the difference between that and going into massive credit card debt is if you keep giving yourself permission to eat, if you keep reminding yourself that the food’s always there, it’s perfectly safe and I’m allowed to eat it, you will naturally settle down when you get food safety. Eating is totally different to compulsive spending on credit cards. I think she’s just … a lot of people freak out when they let go of dieting and get into that all-or-nothing pattern with eating, but there’s like … a real difference between being in an all-or-nothing pattern of eating and adopting intuitive eating and going through that first phase of eating all the food. It’s just different, and its’ not pathological. It’s a normal response to restriction that obviously … she is so restricted and terrified of that. ANNA: It’s all about control, isn’t it? And I think that, you know, talking about the 1200-1600 calories, and I think she refers to that 1600 calories as something you should never, ever go over. So, as a woman, we’re meant to live our lives constantly not going above that. SHREEN: And it’s such a dangerous message. It’s just not enough food, at all. And it’s … and that’s what she’s selling to people, as well … LOUISE: She’s more like ‘honour your restriction’. SHREEN: Yeah! ANNA: We could reverse all of this and create a Jillian Michaels plan. LOUISE: The non-intuitive eating principles. Accept diet culture … what’s the second one? ANNA: Honour your hunger … don’t honour your hunger. LOUISE: Ignore your hunger. SHREEN: Ignore your hunger, yeah. LOUISE: Number three, you do not have permission to eat (all laugh). Alright, principle four? ANNA: Principle four is ‘challenge the food police’. LOUISE: Okay, so hers would be ‘obey the food police’. SHREEN: I don’t think she really understands that she is the food police. When she’s going through it? Like she is … the food police are all the things she’s already talked about. 1200 calories, 1600 calories, these are things that are the food police. ANNA: These are the rules. SHREEN: She doesn’t understand that principle at all. ANNA: The one thing that she said that I did agree with her on was “don’t beat yourself up”. I think she says it in a different way, she means it in a different way, because she kind of adds on and says, “don’t beat yourself up, but don’t fuck up”. Oh sorry. LOUISE:  Please, swear. ANNA: She says, not quite like that, but “maintain balance, it’s all about balance”. And don’t … SHREEN: And self-control. ANNA: So, “don’t beat yourself up, but just don’t do it”, sort of thing. SHREEN: Or, “you can do better”. She always says that, “you can do better”. ANNA: Yeah, so that message is like, it’s still that sort of shaming approach. SHREEN: Condescending. LOUISE: It makes no sense whatsoever. ANNA: But don’t beat yourself up, I mean, that’s important. LOUISE: You know what, ‘don’t beat yourself up’ means she knows people are not going to be able to do it.  ANNA: That’s a good point, yeah. Yeah, which she talks about the… LOUISE: … about going straight back to jail. ANNA: She talks about the stats, which is interesting. She brings up the stats. LOUISE: Oh, the stats. Yeah, that bit made me itchy. ANNA: That’s coming. It’s coming. The next one is ‘discover the satisfaction factor’, which I think she was actually in agreement with. SHREEN: Yeah, that one … she was saying, food for pleasure … I think that one was almost okay. ANNA: Like wow, okay, we agree. And then six was ‘feel your fullness’. And what came up here was again, it was just clear she hasn’t read the book because she didn’t understand that concept at all. LOUISE: She probably doesn’t know what fulness feels like. SHREEN: And then she started talking about how it’s in your head, and kind of went off … even I got a little bit lost with what she was saying. Like, “oh, we’re on fullness principle? I thought we were …” ANNA: She was kind of saying, yeah, she was kind of saying that if you’re not listening to your body, you’re not picking up your fullness levels, there’s something messed up in your head. And I was thinking, you know what? Sometimes I eat food and I’m quite satisfied physically but I’m still eating because the food’s really good, or I don’t want to … I’m eating in company and I don’t want to finish the meal and want to show that I’ve appreciated it … SHREEN: That’s the thing with intuitive eating, that it’s not the ‘hunger/fullness’ diet. And eating past fullness is normal. It’s totally okay. And it’s not just about eating, you know, getting in touch with your fullness signals. It’s about eating foods that give you pleasure and satisfaction. ANNA: Which is the ‘discover the satisfaction factor’. SHREEN: Which is the next one, but yeah. (sighs). LOUISE: God. So, if you can’t feel fullness, there’s something psychologically wrong with you.  ANNA: That’s the message that she’s giving, yeah. SHREEN: But not understanding that if you’re dieting or especially if you’re only eating those dangerous amount of calories a day, you’re going to be absolutely … LOUISE: You mean, like an adult [inaudible] SHREEN: (laughs). Absolutely starving and of course you’re not going to feel your fullness. But there’s nothing wrong with you, it’s just your body. Your body is doing exactly what it is meant to do. It needs food. ANNA: She doesn’t see that 1200-1600 calories as a restriction. She sees it as like … SHREEN: That’s her normal. ANNA: That’s food, that’s what you’re allowed during the day. LOUISE: So depressing. ANNA: Pretty sure I eat double or triple that. LOUISE: Oh, my goodness. ANNA: So, we’re at number seven. We’re still only … oh, over halfway. ‘Cope with your emotions with kindness’.  SHREEN: I think the thing is … LOUISE: That doesn’t really bring her to my mind. SHREEN: Yeah. She kind of goes “oh, yeah, I agree with this, but it shouldn’t just be one paragraph …”. And I’m like YES, there’s a BOOK. A book! There’s a whole book to go with this.  ANNA: She clearly seems to think it’s just this very basic, you know, overview … SHREEN: Guidelines. ANNA: Yeah, just these ten principles. She hasn’t read the book; she doesn’t know who wrote it. LOUISE: No, but this one really shat me to tears. Because this is where she’s saying that she’s had some childhood history with being maybe fractionally larger than someone else and has had to do, like … basically what she’s saying is that if you cannot lose weight and keep it off forever, that is your psychological fault. SHREEN: Yep. LOUISE: You haven’t done the work in therapy to fix your seemingly not thin body. Which is like, such a load of bullshit. And just unscientific and not sound whatsoever. And like you were saying before, people … she doesn’t understand that food is a relationship, and it’s a complex relationship. And the refusal to see anything other than like … she doesn’t even mention hunger as a reason to eat. Anything other than eating to a calorie control, anything else is incorrect. And we eat for an infinite amount of reasons and all of them make sense. And that’s what I love about intuitive eating, it doesn’t pathologise eating. It doesn’t pathologise hunger, it doesn’t pathologise fullness, and it doesn’t pathologise emotions as a reason to eat. And she clearly is. Seeing the function of how wonderful sometimes binge eating is as a way of protecting yourself from [inaudible] stuff. There’s no pathologizing in intuitive eating, but she’s full of pathologizing thinking that even to read statements like this, it doesn’t sink in. ANNA: She’s oversimplifying the whole thing; she doesn’t understand it at all. And this is where she moves into talking about the percentage of people that are successful versus not successful at diets. SHREEN: So, she acknowledges that 95-98% of diets fail. Is this where she starts talking about the Biggest Loser? ANNA: Yeah. SHREEN: She then starts talking about how the Biggest Loser, there’s a 30% extra success rate if you follow the Biggest Loser method. LOUISE: Really? SHREEN: Yeah. ANNA: So, she basically says, she acknowledges that the studies are very clear that 95% of people are unable to sustain a diet or sustain that weight loss, not a diet. But she says that actually on the Biggest Loser it’s only 65% of people that fail. So actually … SHREEN: So, she’s basically saying “we’ve got this success rate, if you do this …” LOUISE: Which study is this published in? Because the only study I’ve read from season 1 which is the … ANNA: The six-year study? SHREEN: The six year, yeah, really interesting. LOUISE: There were 16 people, and 14 of them regained. I don’t think that equates to 65%. Am I …? ANNA: I don’t know but even so … no, she says 35. So, 30% more than … she says 30%, 35% are successful. SHREEN: But even the fact that she’s now saying that 95-98% of diets fail, and she acknowledges that, but all that she’s been talking about is dieting. Diet the whole way through. She’s just completely contradicting herself. ANNA: Not only is it that they don’t work, but she continues to spruik it, continues to say that it’s possible, and if you do it her way, the Biggest Loser way … they did 7 hours of exercise a day, with gruelling regimes and being pushed and yelled at … LOUISE: And they all put the weight back on. ANNA: They put the weight back on. SHREEN: yeah. LOUISE: And their resting metabolic rate was screwed, six years later. SHREEN: Yeah, 700 calories it decreased by. They lost lean body mass, their fasting glucose increased, their blood sugar levels, yeah. They were the main things. But the fact that their metabolic rate decreased by such a large amount … especially where we were saying, she’s telling people to only eat 1200 calories but then you’re going to follow the Biggest Loser method, your metabolic rate’s going to drop by 700 calories, then what are you going to do? LOUISE: So, she lied about the stats on the Biggest Loser, and she’s not even talking to people about the metabolic impact. Because that study was fascinating, and I talk to clients about it. Because they predicted, the researchers predicted how much their resting metabolic rate would be dropped by …  ANNA: And what did they … LOUISE: And they found out it was even lower. So, they were worse off metabolically than they had predicted six years later. No one expected it to last that long, to have such a devastating impact. ANNA: Yeah, so it’s like a continued effect. It hasn’t regained back to before, pre … LOUISE: Exactly. And when stuff like that is suppressed, we know people are going to experience intense hunger, which of course you can’t honour. SHREEN: And the thing is, again, she’s completely misquoted this study herself but if she’d done her research she would know that there’s been over a hundred studies on intuitive eating that have been done that show you have better body image, higher esteem, improved metabolism, decreased rates of disordered and emotional eating, diminished stress levels and increased satisfaction with life. That’s over a hundred studies on intuitive eating that have been done. ANNA: And I’m pretty sure that you couldn’t say the same, with all of those positive effects, with dieting. LOUISE:  No, especially the ones that use her supplements, which show that everyone puts the weight back on. And the Biggest Loser study, everyone puts the weight back on … but let’s not focus on whether or not the weight comes back on. It’s actually the damage to the body and the metabolic systems that’s just absent from her rant. SHREEN: And not even the psychological damage, that’s not even mentioned. LOUISE: She’s evidence of the psychological damage. SHREEN: Yeah. That is true, yeah. ANNA: So, the next one is … principle eight, respect your body. LOUISE: Oh, fuck. ANNA: So, I think going back to when she spoke about size 16 always equalling healthiness, I think that shows that she doesn’t have respect for all bodies. And that kind of bothers me a bit. SHREEN. A bit. A lot. ANNA: It’s a big part of like, you know, our approach here and being a Health at Every Size® professional, you know? It’s about honouring and understanding and respecting that all bodies are different and need something different. SHREEN: And that you can’t tell somebody’s health by their body size, and that’s such … it’s a huge misconception as it is, let alone, I mean, Jillian Michaels saying this and it’s just … ANNA: Yeah, and just recognising that bodies are diverse, and they will do different things. Your health looks different at different points in your life. What you need changes day to day, and only your body really knows. You know? No external source, no trainer, no Jillian Michaels, no Dr Oz, nobody knows your body. SHREEN: And the whole principle of respecting your body is about being kind to yourself and compassionate and self-care, which is the complete opposite of Jillian Michaels. Like, she is just not kind. She’s not compassionate. She’s just shaming, judgemental, mean. Like … yeah. She’s … I just don’t think she even understands the word ‘respect’, quite frankly. LOUISE: Unless it’s like ‘respect my authority”. SHREEN: Yeah. ANNA: Something I noticed too, that came up before, was that because she’s so invested in it … have you heard of the concept of religion, like dieting? The religion of dieting? She’s so completely invested in it, she’s almost not willing to look the other way, or explore that there might be some truth in this, because she’s so invested, like financially and that’s her way of living … LOUISE: It’s her identity. ANNA: Exactly. LOUISE: It’s interesting, isn’t it? I think Alan Levinovitz, ‘The Gluten Lie’ … ANNA: That’s the guy. LOUISE: He talks about this, the religion of diet mentality. She is definitely the Pope. SHREEN: Quote of the day (all laugh). ANNA: So, then we come into ‘movement, feel the difference’. Which is principle nine. SHREEN: I think this one really got us fired up, didn’t it? ANNA: Well, the first thing that she said was like, “what is this? I don’t know what this ‘militant exercise’ even means”. LOUISE: That’s so funny (all laugh). ANNA: Like, really? Are you sure? LOUISE: She’s like, world-famous on memes for [inaudible]. I think I even did a presentation once where I used her with her finger in her face at someone as a demonstration of militant exercise. ANNA: Yeah, the kind of exercise that you don’t want to do if you want to have a sustainable relationship with movement. LOUISE: Yeah, your name’s on the t-shirt, love. SHREEN: Just telling people in this thing that, you know, this myth that’s just not true – ‘no pain, no gain’, that only hard exercise counts, it’s just utter rubbish. All movement counts, it doesn’t matter what it is. From playing with your kids, to hoovering, to dancing around your living room. LOUISE: Hoovering doesn’t count, I don’t even know what hoovering is … ANNA: She’s talking about hoovering, the hoover … SHREEN: Vacuuming, is that more Aussie? LOUISE: No, I don’t understand. (all laugh). SHREEN: But like, movement can be anything and you get the exact same health benefits from any type of regular movement, doesn’t matter what it is. But what she’s just trying to … she’s just bringing movement and aesthetics, that’s what she’s talking about. She’s talking about … ANNA: That’s a really good point, because if she was really interested in somebody’s health, then any kind of movement would be accessible, you know, like … SHREEN: Beneficial. ANNA: Helpful, yeah. SHREEN: Your blood markers, and stress levels, and sleep, it doesn’t matter what it is, it has the same health benefits. But she’s not talking about health. She’s talking about the way you look. ANNA: Yeah. She’s talking about ‘results’ a lot, and “if you want to get results fast” … because you know, let’s face it, she says “if you’re coming to look at intuitive eating, you’re trying to lose weight, you’re trying to get results fast.” LOUISE: Jillian! ANNA: “You’ve got to do a certain type of exercise, and my programs do that”. So, a little bit of spruiking her own programs too. SHREEN: What she doesn’t realise that she’s doing is having that negative relationship with exercise is not going to make people want to do it.  LOUISE: She doesn’t care about that. SHREEN: She’s the reason why people don’t want to go to the gym, or they hate exercise, because of people like Jillian Michaels. ANNA: Yeah, it’s that fitness trauma that you were talking about before. And what I recognise here, at the studio at Haven, community … in my experience, community has always been really powerful in building that sustainable and healthful relationship with movement. Joy and … SHREEN: And it’s that you enjoy, you [inaudible]. ANNA: And to want to come back, too. And that militant approach might work well for someone who responds to that but maybe for a short time. And then that motivation kind of wanes. And then it’s always trying to get back the motivation, you hear that a lot in fitness culture. But if you’re not coming at it from external, an external place, for external purposes, and it’s more about the … SHREEN: The way it makes you feel, using it as a tool for self-care rather than punishment … ANNA: Your mental health, having fun with your friends, it’s a completely different experience to being yelled at by Jillian Michaels. SHREEN: Her whole thing is yelling at people, making them feel guilty, punishing them. Like, and that’s just not what people need in a fitness professional. They need someone who is kind and compassionate and she’s just … that’s just not her, unfortunately. She’s just giving … ANNA: What is she? She’s the Pope of … the religion of dieting. She’s also the epitome of diet culture. She’s all of those things. And then the last principle is gentle nutrition, principle ten. LOUISE: I think this actually blew up her brain. SHREEN: Yeah, because she couldn’t understand the whole diet … principle one, principle ten … LOUISE: She couldn’t figure out how that fits with unconditional permission to eat. Because of course, if you have unconditional permission to eat, you’re going to stick your face into a burger for the rest of your life.  ANNA: Yeah, so again she thinks it’s all just endless eating. LOUISE: She’s stuck in that ‘all or nothing’ mentality. ANNA: Exactly, yeah. SHREEN: It’s funny, because she talks about that ‘black and white, all or nothing’ mentality and not understanding that’s exactly what she’s saying. Yeah. ANNA: Yeah, and again it came up just very, very clear that she hasn’t read the book, she doesn’t really know what she’s talking about. SHREEN: Yeah, I think that’s the main … ANNA: This is when she said, you know, “it’s probably written by someone who has just really been hurt by diet culture and probably had an eating disorder, and, you know, probably just some random” and actually … LOUISE: Such a shame that she didn’t actually look at the author. SHREEN: Yeah, just even look up to who they were. Yeah. ANNA: It’s a little bit disappointing because you’d think somebody who has such a following, I think, has such a … I think there’s a moral obligation in a way to represent something that … when you have such a big following and you’re sharing something that can affect people deeply … SHREEN: It’s what we say, that she’s really coming from that dieting mentality and all that sort of shaming that she doesn’t understand that intuitive eating at its core is a self-care model. It’s very compassionate and she doesn’t understand that. Also. with intuitive eating, we’re not saying that it’s a solution for everybody. Everyone has the right to do what they want with their body. She just doesn’t understand the concept at all, what it stands for. ANNA: It’s like she’s on such a different planet, and it’s not … doesn’t come across as open to exploring that this might be something that really serves people. SHREEN: Yeah, and that it’s having such a positive impact. We talked about earlier with the … ANNA: Feeling a bit threatened by the impact on her, you know, her … LOUISE: To her bottom line. I also think that, I mean, if she really is undernourished to that point that she has restricted her entire life, one of the things that happens when you’re weight supressed is cognitive rigidity. ANNA: That’s a really good point. LOUISE: So, it’s quite hard to be flexible. We see that a lot with people who are suffering in the depths of Anorexia, that you simply cannot think. And perhaps there’s an element of that that’s happening here. ANNA: That’s really interesting. SHREEN: That’s a really good point. Because what dieting, that kind of restriction is doing to you … LOUISE: Well, it gives her massive benefits. Huge amounts of recognition, it gives her income. She can’t think out of it. So, there’s not a lot of reason for her, like … I think the reason for putting up that video wasn’t a genuine exploration of “what’s this thing called ‘intuitive eating’?”.  SHREEN: It was just to … LOUISE: It was just to kind of … ANNA: Debunk it. LOUISE: To debunk it and keep hold of her customer base. Look, let’s assume that she is interested in the book. Jillian Michael’s house is in Malibu, California. I reckon we just whack a copy in an envelope, address it to her, maybe she’ll read it. ANNA: Do you think?  LOUISE: Yeah? I don’t know. Maybe if all of our listeners whack a copy into an envelope … SHREEN: Yeah!  LOUISE: 20 copies, please read. Maybe. SHREEN: Maybe, yeah. LOUISE: But I don’t think that was anything other than a … it’s quite interesting, I’m seeing this more and more. The famous people, the people who have really invested in diet culture, even the obesity researchers and all of that. They’re all kind of getting a little bit nervous about this pushback. SHREEN: They should be. LOUISE: It makes me feel warm and fuzzy. SHREEN: It’s time. LOUISE: It’s got nothing to do with the champagne. I think the celebs are getting nervous, like “what do you mean, people in larger bodies are okay with themselves just the way they are?”. And finding non weight-loss things to look after themselves, oh my gosh. What a huge, horrible threat. So, we’re not sorry, Jillian, that we made you nervous. ANNA: Agreed. I hope it gives her a little bit of food for thought (all laugh). LOUISE: I don’t know how many calories would be attached to that thought (all laugh). ANNA: I have to say, like, the thing that I think fires me up the most is how fatphobic she is. SHREEN: And how much harm … that’s the thing that fired me up the most, how much harm she’s causing people out there. And having had an eating disorder myself, it’s just … LOUISE: Horrible. You can see how triggering it is. SHREEN: I can see what it can do, yeah. That’s what fires me up. LOUISE: and let’s not forget when we say fatphobic, we mean people who hate fat people. And that is really reflective … even though she is professing “oh, I’m going to love you … but you’re unhealthy so change”. That’s troubling. Using health as a halo, an excuse or a reason for my core treatment of you just based on your appearance. And that’s just … those days are done. You can’t do that anymore. It’s just not cool. And I do wonder if there is like a Biggest Loser university somewhere?  ANNA: Michelle Bridges went to it as well. LOUISE: Because the same kind of hatred of fat people, you know … again, like masked with a thin layer of concern trolling for your health was Michelle Bridges’ thing. Four years ago, when she was on Australian Story and she was saying “I’m yet to meet someone who is morbidly obese and happy”. So, for people who are listening from overseas, Michelle Bridges is the Australian version of Jillian Michaels. And what an awful comment. So, Jillian has been pushed back against from this video, right? Michelle was pushed back against from this video too, with really clear … I know we all live in a bubble, but with quite a lot of push back. ANNA: That’s good. Was she on … was that on like Australian primetime TV? SHREEN: She was on Australian Story. LOUISE: Yeah [inaudible] … it shows how deeply she feels [inaudible] about people she’s profiting from. Putting them through three cycles a year of 1200 calorie program and she knows it doesn’t work. But the thing is, what they do is they double down. People like this double down, when they’re called out, when there’s a pushback. Instead of kind of opening up and say, “okay, I should probably issue an apology, maybe take the video down, maybe do some work”. They’re not doing that. Jillian’s not doing that. ANNA: I think she just keeps responding. And she’s just responding with the same rhetoric, so she’s not … SHREEN: I think she kind of comments that [inaudible], to learn about it more, which is a shame. ANNA: And how did Michele Bridges respond? LOUISE: Doubled down on it. About health, “I care deeply about health”. ANNA: The whole thing with health and weight, this is what really frustrates me about it too. If she’s really interested in health, she could support all the behaviours that support someone’s health. LOUISE: Too complicated. Remember? Too complicated. Anything that actually involves having to think about something other than my own diet plan … ANNA: It makes me realise how happy I’ve become in moving away from all this, that’s why I got away from it. Because I learned about how there’s another way. Intuitive eating, Health at Every Size®, the body positivity movement … I started delving into it and it just felt so triggering being around other fitness professionals from the traditional approach. And this here, I’ve got to say, got me so fired up. I’m going to be fired up for a while from this. SHREEN: We talk about fitness trauma, and Jillian Michaels is causing that. LOUISE: May she go the way of the dinosaurs and … (all laugh). ANNA: Well, hopefully there will be less and less of her to be seen in the future and more and more of kind of this messaging coming up, challenging … LOUISE: Absolutely, I absolutely think that’s going to happen. You’ve just reminded me actually, she … because Jillian, earlier in the year before she posted the nasty intuitive eating thing, she said something nasty about Lizzo. SHREEN: Yeah, of course.  ANNA: That sounds familiar … SHREEN: Yeah. That was before …  LOUISE: A little while before, I don’t know. It’s Covid, none of us have a timeline. ANNA: She’s said some pretty horrendous things. SHREEN: Really horrendous things yeah. LOUISE: Again, like … “she’s clearly going to get diabetes” or something? ANNA: I think she said something along the lines of “there’s nothing sexy about diabetes”, or clogged arteries or something.  SHREEN: Something like that, yeah. ANNA: How can she … that’s so inappropriate. Lizzo’s bouncing away on stage. She’s got stamina, she’s got energy.  SHREEN: We don’t know anything about her or her health. ANNA: And why do we have to talk about that anyway? She’s this amazing performer and doing this really cool stuff. It’s wonderful to see some diverse bodies out there that are getting out there as much as the other, the thin ideal that you see everywhere. LOUISE: Yeah, the comments that she made were like “why are we talking about Lizzo’s body, we should be talking about her music”. ANNA: So, she said that? LOUISE: Yeah. ANNA: But then … LOUISE: And it’s really funny, because she’s saying that we shouldn’t be talking about Lizzo’s body, but her entire website is full of shots of her body. ANNA: Yeah, and that’s her thing. SHREEN: That’s her thing, yeah. ANNA: She’s always talking about people’s bodies. Size 16, yeah. SHREEN: Yeah, non-stop. LOUISE: The point I’m making is that you don’t say that about Lizzo. And the pushback she got after she made that comment? This is the future Jillian. Lizzo is setting the world on fire.  ANNA: We need more Lizzo. SHREEN: We need more Lizzo. LOUISE: and you are the biggest loser. ANNA: Well put. LOUISE: Oh my god, let’s finish on a high note. Thank you, guys, that was an elegant unpacking of Jillian Michael’s ten principles of not understanding intuitive eating (all laugh). And how firmly we can steer the ship to this new awesome way of looking after our body. ANNA: Thank you. SHREEN: Thank you.  Resources Mentioned: (Watch if you can stomach) Jillian Michaels' Igno-rant on Youtube Urbszat, Dax, C. Peter Herman, and Janet Polivy. "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we diet: Effects of anticipated deprivation on food intake in restrained and unrestrained eaters." Journal of abnormal psychology 111.2 (2002): 396. News article about 4 lawsuits against Jillian Michaels for her weight loss pills Fothergill, Erin, et al. "Persistent metabolic adaptation 6 years after “The Biggest Loser” competition." Obesity 24.8 (2016): 1612-1619. Alan Levinovitz's The Gluten Lie Find out more about Anna Hearn & Haven Find out more about Shreen El Masry and Be You Be Free  

In this episode I talk to Merlin Griffiths, pub owner, mixologist and bartender on Channel 4's First Dates. We discuss current difficulties in the hospitality industry and how you can cut your costs.  You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on running a hospitality business and the latest COVID-19 measures. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. We've paired up with Smart Energy GB to bring you this episode.  Would you prefer to read Merlin Griffith's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Merlin Griffiths, pub owner, mixologist and bartender on Channel 4’s First Dates. Merlin grew up in Cheltenham, Gloucestershire. He used to own the Priory Tavern in north west London, with his wife, Lucille. These days he runs Maltsters Country Inn, located in Badby. Cocktails are a staple speciality on Merlin’s menus as he’s been a bartender and mixologist for 20 years. He first appeared as the bartender on First Dates in 2013 and the show is currently on its 14th series. We’ll be finding out a bit more about him as well as the challenges facing the hospitality industry.   Anna: Hi Merlin. Merlin: Hi Anna, thank you for having me. How are you doing? Anna: Of course – I'm doing very well, thank you. How about you? Merlin: Yeah, yeah, all things considered, well, I think, yeah. Now, many of our listeners would recognise you as the man behind the bar on First Dates. Tell us more about how you got into the hospitality industry and then onto the show. Merlin: Hospitality – what a trade to be in! It's one of those things, isn't it? Do you plan to go into hospitality? Some people do they really do? I don't think I did. I was quite young, when I first started working as what we call a barback, up in the West End of London. I think I lucked out by getting into the right bar at the right time. This was just as that cocktail renaissance was starting to happen in the mid-90s. Yeah, for me, I mean, it was one of my first jobs in London. I was just happy to have a job really, to work all hours all days or, yeah, do just about anything necessary. You know, it wasn't probably until about five or six years in and you start going, ‘I'm still doing this?’ This is more than just a stopgap of a job, isn't it? Yeah, I think this is now officially a career. And yeah, that's where it's led to now via corporate money. I had a good stint working for five-star hotels out in India for Taj hotels. I was living in Bangalore for a good while. From there, I was headhunted into Bacardi Global, as one of their global ambassadors for Bombay Sapphire gin and Oxley gin at the time. That was a great experience – almost four years bouncing around the world teaching people how to make martinis and from there into pub ownership. It was at that point where we suddenly thought, my partner and I, we’ve been looking at this, and especially on my travels – I've been in America loads – I have this idea that a good American neighbourhood bar, you can still get a really well-made Cosmo or Margarita as well as decent draft beer. And I had this idea that why can't you do the same in a sort of a British pub setting, you know, the cocktail side of things, the drink side of things shouldn't really be mutually exclusive. Cocktails and cask ales, quite literally. So that's sort of where we started cocktails and cask ales and no screens and no machines, because I decided there were enough TVs in pubs at the time as well. Pubs should be sociable. And so that's what it led to that. And it was while doing that, there was a job advertisement for Channel Four. They were looking for a bartender. That's it, it was literally advertised as a job and I was like, ‘Okay, I think I could pull out a small amount of time to have a go at that too’. And I was lucky enough to land it – it’s a fantastic role which I've really, really enjoyed. Just out of curiosity, how do you get headhunted as a barman? What kind of things are they looking for and who approaches you? It’s an odd one, you see, because the social media side. You go online these days and you can find loads of really good bartenders up and down the country and all around the world. There's a really developed network nowadays. But we're going back ten years and it wasn't as developed as we know it now. For me, moving into the job of First Dates, for instance, I was very lucky thanks to the Bacardi Global support. I've done a whole bunch of videos of online training and bits and bobs for them at the time. If you if you literally just search ‘find me as a cocktail bartender’, there were about three pages of me making nice and dry martinis, and Tom Collins [cocktails] and so on and so forth. So really, I think, you know, a certain amount of luck, but at the time. These days, you really have to work hard for it. Anna: I imagine it's not just the showy, throwing bottles over your shoulder and setting things on fire, either. Merlin: No, but that's also fun. Obviously, I was never much of a flair bartender. For me, it always has been about customers and customer service. That's the real key for me as a people business. And I've always said that. The clues in the name hospitality: we’re hospitable. And that's genuinely what we get up to here. It's not about how well can you can mix a martini or how well you can keep your cask ale, all of that. At the same time though, what's really important is how you deal with people, I don't like to use the word customers – ‘guests’ is better. You know, how you deal with your guests, who become friends as well, your local community, especially in the pub game. There is loads to think about when it comes to running a pub. When you took on Maltsters, it was in pretty bad shape when you took it on. How did you turn it around without blowing your budget? Merlin: Slowly but surely, evenly divide the task up piecemeal, otherwise these places can become. Anyone who's taken an old pub or an old, an old tumble-down pub. Why call nil-premium size, anyone who's done that journey knows what I'm talking about, when you have to divide up the task because otherwise it can become overwhelming. Unless you've got unlimited budgets and contracts as to throw it all in one big hit, which let's face it, most of us don’t. I know that at small business level we tend to sort of bootstrap our way up. First things first, yes, I'm going right what obviously, I need to get the kitchen, clean, comfortable, hygienic. Once you do that, we need a basic bar and trade area. So they're the first two things you look at, then we start looking at upgrading the function room, then we start looking at doing the gardens, then we can start looking at doing any of the letting rooms that are available here and things like that. Slowly but surely, now we're only just over three years into our journey here. There's still lots more to do. But you just take it one chunk at a time and make it manageable. One of the things I noticed when I was looking around was that the TripAdvisor reviews before you took [the Maltster] on were also not great, they tended to be one star. How do you recover from these kind of bad TripAdvisor reviews (or other platforms that are similar)? Merlin: I don't know in all honesty. I don't really keep an eye on that side of it. I'd rather keep my eyes on the people that are coming in and the customers that I do have. I think it is as a small business, it's a whole other job managing online and especially getting involved in managing reviews. Some people do very well at it, my hat goes off to them. I decided that my efforts are better placed elsewhere in the business, in looking after those people that I can see in front of me and those people that phone me here to make bookings. Anna: Do you think it was worth would be worth hiring a separate person altogether to deal with that side of things?   Merlin: If you can afford it. I don't know if I can! I mean, that's what sort of segways neatly to the work I've been doing with Smart Energy GB as well with this guide advice. I mean budgets are tighter than ever at the moment. Crikey.  You’ve been vocal on Twitter about how the government has been handling measures affecting the hospitality industry during the coronavirus pandemic. What do you think of the action being taken and what measures would you like to see? Merlin: Honestly, I don't think it's my place to say yay or nay. It's too easy to bash any point of view that people might have at the moment or any approaches that have been taken, realistically, as a small business owner from talking, honestly, so much of it's out of our control. And so much of it is out of my control, at the end of the day, whether I agree with things or not. And in all honesty, what I've really spent since March and up till now doing is looking at what I can control, because it's so easy to feel helpless in these situations. It really is, you know, when you're faced with ever higher hurdles to jump, ever more onerous bits of legislation to go through. But with the help of peers as well, I stay in touch with a large network of publicans these days. One of our groups, we've got about 250 of us chatting away. And it's lovely to be able to bounce ideas off each other and get advice about ways of doing things. This helps you feel more in control, honestly. That's really useful. Because otherwise, it's very easy to get quite down about the whole thing, angry and shouty, or just generally depressed and withdrawn. And, yeah, it's tough. I'm not going to say it's easy. But nonetheless, by approaching this with the idea of what can I control, it certainly makes you feel a little bit better. Ordinarily, I’d be asking about what small improvements hospitality businesses can make to improve and grow, but unfortunately the situation is different right now. What advice do you have for these business owners to get through this time, both professionally and personally? Merlin: I'll start with the personal one. You know, honestly, for me, do one non-work activity that brings you joy, at least once a week. Honestly, it really does feel like we're hardwired to work 24/7, but it is important to try and do that one thing that's just for you, however much you convince yourself that there isn’t time. I cycle – that's my thing. I'll take a couple of hours each week and go for a long ride. I'll get, you know, I'm really sorry. I'm one of those weirdos who dresses up in Lycra. Anna: Oh no, I’m a keen cyclist myself – no judgement here at all! Merlin: I don’t know what age you turn into, what do they call it, a MAMIL (Middle-aged Man in Lycra)? Anna: You’ve got time yet! Merlin: Good, thank you. But honestly, seriously, what I say just do this one thing that brings you joy, even really, if that's something as simple as pulling yourself down to the local park, right, sitting on a bench in some peace and quiet with a cup of tea or coffee and reading a book or doing the crossword, whatever it takes just to try and remove yourself for a moment. It's incredibly important. I think whether people realise it or not, there's this underlying bubbling stress and tension, and especially more so as a small business operator these days. In the survey work that we've done here, as well as 69 per cent of changes in their financial situation has led to negative impacts on their mental health. So, all of that needs to be dealt with, somehow, it really does, before it bubbles over. You can't hold it in. Talk to people as well, you know, utilise your peer networks, really. Friends are really wonderful if you've got a good friend and will listen. But sometimes there are sector-specific things and business owner-specific things. It does help to talk to other people in the same situation in the same boat. Try and get involved in some of the groups that are out there, you know, maybe just to vent a little bit and get it off your chest. Anna: Yeah, I think as a business owner, sometimes you're inclined to put other people, namely your employees, first. Merlin: Always employees. They're like a little family. Honestly, they're extended family. Any small business person knows that, they're the biggest asset you have in your business, your team, your staff, your people. You’ve got to look after them. I mean, in March that was that was the first thing was stressed us – what are we going to do, that stuff we need to make sure they looked after? Like many of us, we looked at our cash flow and thought, ‘Oh, crikey’. Well, it's going to be a while before we get the furlough payments into pay them. So how do we go about this without also bankrupting the business? The true way to look after my staff is to make sure that they've got jobs to come back to as well. You know, and so yeah, we had some very frank and honest discussions with our staff, and they were absolutely brilliant. They worked with us and completely understood. I think we were incredibly lucky to have the team that we do, we really are. I love them all to bits. We've seen on the website that with the increased rate of redundancies, more and more people are interested in starting their own business. What would you say to somebody who wants to start a hospitality business? Merlin: It's hard work but go for it. Honestly. Put in the hours and you get the rewards, quite frankly. It's a great trade to be in. I think it's an absolutely great trade. I've been there – 25 years now behind bars and involved in hospitality in one way shape or form. And ten of those as a landlord. It is absolutely tremendous. I'd say that's awesome. Do it. You know, ONS stats say that 99.6 per cent of British businesses are classed as small to medium businesses. Anna: Most are micro businesses too. Merlin: Yeah, most of those are micro businesses usually. So, best part of six million. It was Napoleon quote who said Britain is a nation of shopkeepers, wasn’t it? Yeah, that hasn’t changed. You know, the small business is what makes this country tick. It absolutely does. It's so incredibly important. Absolutely important. And it's not just that, and it's not just the standards we hear about, you know, jobs in the economy and so on. This is families, livelihoods, children, the socio-economic impact here at a macro level is really far-reaching is incredibly important. It's really easy to sort of get the view these days that Britain's dominated by big business, but of course, they've got marketing budgets, and that's why you hear about them. But really, as you can see from those statistics, 99 per cent it's small to medium – all hail the little guys. I'm going to head back – we started this or with advice as well for small business owners. Let's have a look. What else have we been recommending to people? Controlling controllables is what I wanted to touch on, really. Rent, this is a really big one, but you've got to open conversations with the landlord, haven't you at the moment. Trust me, it's tough to keep calm, but you have to keep calm and do that with a level head. Yeah, again, staff you need to control. This is looking after them in the best ways possible. And now if you're doing this alongside changing your business as well, hopefully, maybe you could find other ways to pick up some hours for staff if you're been exploring the possibilities to go. Normally I serve a bit of food or a bit of drink, but suddenly, well, now you start looking at your site going, ‘I got a licensed A3 space, it's a commercial site. What else can I do with it?’ This hopefully brings out new work, new workflows, new ways of operating, whether that's local groceries, setting yourself up as a sub postmaster, you might do local deliveries, hot takeaway, cold takeaway, there are so many different bits and bobs going on here. There are operators even doing full meals to cook at home from their kitchens, bathrooms being sent out, that there are so many different things. But these are good ways to assure your business so you can provide the hours for your staff. And then you start looking at utilities, get a handle on utilities, and honestly, there again, they're an important part of what you do. And this is where you get into this idea of marginal gains. I'm a big fan of marginal gains, they are a great thing as long tail effect, because if you do enough of them, they actually start adding up to be a significant gain for your business. Anna: If people want to make those marginal gains, how would they go about that? One of the clearest easy wins, contact your energy supplier and see if you can get a smart meter. I think it's a really good, sensible thing to do. up to date information on how your business is running and how much things are costing is essential now more than ever. This is more than just turning lights off. You could start controlling your stock levels, your exposure, and that sort of sense. Tighten up your menus to focus on the crowd pleasers and the profitable dishes and so on. I want to know how much stuff costs to run now, I really do. I've got a sneaking suspicion that I'm going to be able to save a fortune on extra kitchen extracts and some of the electrical hardware in the kitchen, especially, you know, I'm interested to look at when my chef turns this on, when he turns it off, is it actually necessary at certain points If I can save maybe eight to 12 hours’ worth of electric a day, and trust me, you're talking high kilowatt devices here. Ronnie, you know, he was running an electric pizza oven, for instance, out there, they know this is a 12 kilowatt device. Yeah, this isn't small beans we're talking about anymore. These are ways of controlling what you can, knowing that you've trimmed the fat, made your business lean, all those little these things, again, tend to be little things that are going on. They also tend to be at normal trade times, tends to put these things on a back burner – ‘Oh, yeah, I must have looked at that one point’ or they’ve got a whiteboard in the office or a Post-It note somewhere or a to-do list or what have you. And you sort of eventually get around to them. Now is the time to dive into all of that stuff and start getting a really good handle on what you do and the way you work and being prepared to change as well. We all have to adjust. Anna: Yes, it’s also amazing what some small business owners have done in adding in new kinds of services. Merlin: Yeah, it's fantastic for the rural side of things. I'm loving the fact that loads of rural pubs, for instance, are reinstating lost village services like post offices and shops. The fantastic thing is if you look at them as standalone things, I can see why they largely closed in a lot of small villages. It's very difficult to make a profit as a small village shop, given the cost of renting a building, and so on and so forth these days. If you're already doing that as a pub, and you've got the space to expand to a retail offering, right now it's a given win and you're engaging with your community now in new ways, by restoring the services, it’s fantastic. Let's not forget a lot of rural communities as well have people who will be shielding in certain ways or you know, just sort of largely keeping out society's way. So, a chance for them to literally just be able to walk down to the end of the street and get a bottle of milk or something without having to go into town is huge for them. Absolutely huge. Anna: Is there anything else you'd like to add? Merlin: I tell what I will add. Really plug into these hospitality networks, the industry networks, take advice where you can get it, speak to your accountant. If you don't have an accountant, take free financial advice from your bank as they will always be happy to give it, but wherever you can, take that advice. The more people you speak to, the more you suddenly realise you're not alone in all this. And there are ways still to sort of keep the glass looking half full, even though it may look half empty, if I can be so frank. But we are, as I say, creative, resilient, adaptable, this is hospitality! Challenges are something we routinely rise to, something we're very good at overcoming in this business. Anna: Well, that seems like the ideal note to wrap up. Thank you very much for coming on the podcast, Merlin. Merlin: Thank you so much for having me on, Anna, thank you. Watch Merlin in First Dates on Channel 4’s catch-up service, All4. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more guidance on COVID-19 measures and running your hospitality business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.   

In this episode I chat to Theo Paphitis, businessman, retail expert, shopkeeper and former Dragon. We discuss tips retail during COVID-19 and his experiences of surviving school and becoming a business owner with dyslexia.  You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on running a retail business and supporting employees with dyslexia. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Would you prefer to read Theo Paphitis' podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. In this episode we have Theo Paphitis, businessman, retail expert, former Dragon and shopkeeper. Born in Cyprus, Theo came to the UK at age of seven, living in Manchester then London. He left school at the age of 16 with no qualifications after having struggles with dyslexia. He started work as a filing clerk in a Lloyds of London brokerage, moving on to Watches of Switzerland at the age of 18. He had a stint in insurance then returned to retail, taking on names such as Ryman, La Senza and Robert Dyas. In spring 2011, he launched lingerie brand, Boux Avenue. Since then he’s created the Theo Paphitis Retail Group encompassing the aforementioned retail businesses and the London Graphic Centre, which he acquired in 2016. In 2005, Theo joined Dragon’s Den and in 2012 to focus on his growing retail empire. He came back for a few episodes last year to fill in for Touker Suleyman. 10 years ago, Theo started Small Business Sunday, #SBS, where entrepreneurs describe their businesses via Twitter. Theo retweets his favourites to his audience to boost their exposure. Today we’re going to be talking about retail in the age of COVID-19 and what it’s like being a business owner with dyslexia. Anna: Hi Theo. Theo: Hello! That was quite some introduction. Anna: Oh, I know. I tried to shorten it, but it’s just come out as ‘Theo’s done quite a lot of stuff!’ Theo: It keeps me busy. Anna: How are you today? Theo: I’m good, thank you – in a very soggy Wimbledon. Anna: Yeah, it seems like that all over the UK. I’m up in Scotland and it’s much the same. But that’s very much, you know… Theo: I did refrain from butting in there but thank you for doing that for me! Let’s crack on. I’d like to go back to – I believe you were 15 years old at the time – you opened up a school tuck shop, so retail must’ve been in your blood from quite early on. What was the inspiration behind that?   Theo: Well, the inspiration was actually a need. I didn’t even know what retail was. I’d been in shops, obviously, but at that age – 14, 15 – there was a need at the school. We didn’t have a tuck shop. And on the basis that I didn’t enjoy school very much and I wasn’t a model student in classes. When I suggested to the school that they fund me to do so, they jumped at it because I didn’t have to sit in class for too long, being disruptive. I’m sure that was the main reason. I thought it was a great opportunity, it was great fun. It was great to learn on the job, overcome problems – of which there were many – everything from litter to security to stock control. All the things that us shopkeepers do day-to-day now. So, your first retail job was at Watches of Switzerland and you sold a Rolex on your first day. Tell me what that was like and how did it spark your love of retail? Theo: On my first day, it was all very different for me from what I was doing as an office clerk before. There’s no paperwork involved, just loads and loads of shiny things. Watches and all bits and pieces. I spent the morning having my induction by the manager. And then I was let loose on the shop floor, a customer came in and there I was, extolling the virtues of the Rolex Oyster, that I’d only just heard of barely an hour ago. All of the information that’d been fed into me came blubbering out with some authority. And there you go – I had a sale. It was amazing.     We know that one of the things from this year is that online sales have exploded – what other changes in consumer habits have you noticed this year? Theo: When we went into lockdown, I said quite publicly that the longer this goes on for, the more consumer habits will change. And in fact, within the second week, I could see that digital was accelerating at unprecedented rates and I estimated at the time that we’d had at least five years of acceleration in the adoption of digital in the time from the end of March 2020 until the end of June 2020. Eventually, it was always in our businesses plan, investment in the digital side, that a lot of our business would go online. So, we’d already invested quite heavily as a business. But the acceleration in those three months was phenomenal. We weren’t expecting to get that level of increase until about five years’ time. Actually, coming back to that, your business portfolio is made up, as we heard in the intro, of a lot of retail firms that are traditional to the high street. That must mean you have quite a lot of faith in the future of retail on the high street, despite what naysayers might say and an encouragement to move towards more predominantly digital businesses. What would you say to that? Theo: I think that like many retailers, we’ve got two legacy, very traditional brands in Ryman and Robert Dyas. Robert Dyas has been trading for over 150 years and Ryman for over 125 years, so they’ve been a big part of the fascia of United Kingdom high streets over those times. But our services within those and the things that we sell within those businesses have changed quite tremendously in that time. And we always anticipated that some of our stores just wouldn’t make it out of the other side. That was always going to be the case. It was just a matter of when. There’s no point in keeping a store open if you’re the last person standing and nobody’s visiting the high street. Or, in fact, because of short-termism. And, quite honestly, workshy politicians not reviewing the business rates, which in itself has killed so many high streets. It’s not the rent, it’s the ancillary costs. We’d already planned for that. That doesn’t mean we had plans to shut all of our stores – far from it. We just need to make sure that we focus on the stores where there’s a community. That was always the plan and remains the plan. You’ve talked about an acceleration in adopting technology, do you think there will be some sort of push to reduce or reform business rates [in the longer term]? It’s been talked about for some time. Theo: It’s been talked about forever, but I use my words very carefully. I use the word ‘lazy’. I use it a lot when it comes to various people that have held the seat at no.11 that just couldn’t be bothered to put the work in to repurpose business rates. Business rates is an archaic tax from the 1500s. Ye Olde Internet Shoppe would not exist in the 1500s. The Exchequer needs income, of course it needs income, otherwise how are we going to pay for our services? But you can just keep loading it up on what is a very easy tax to collect and then put people out of business because you reach the law of diminishing returns. They needed to repurpose taxation to reflect the new modern and digital age. It’s very difficult for people paying rent and rates when other people are trading out of warehouses and contributing very little. It needs to be balanced – it has always needed to be balanced – but even more so now. Of course, since March, the present Chancellor has absolutely done the right thing in suspending business rates, giving a business rates holiday. That expires in March ’21 and it’ll be interesting to see what he does then. I can’t believe for one minute that he would even contemplate bringing them back. If he does, that would spell the demise of many high streets and many trusted names within those high streets. What do you think should happen instead? Theo: I think we’ve got to relook at the way we pay taxes. It’s very simple – it’s not complicated. It requires work, but we’ve got to look at the different ways of collecting taxation, whether it’s a sales tax or any other form of tax you put on, that is fair and allows people to trade on a level playing field. I think that arguably, for a long time, the worry has been the wealthy individuals who benefit from having those business rates and high costs in place. Theo: The fact remains that, with landlords, we’ve been able to negotiate as footfall has gone down in various parts of the country. We’ve been able to sit down with landlords a lot. We’re taking a lot less money now. If you want us to remain in your store, then we can only afford to pay X or Y and in the main, they’ve agreed. We’ve got so many stores where the rates are higher than the rent. That can’t be right. And obviously, you can’t negotiate with the Exchequer. Absolutely. Do you think there are certain types of businesses that would move into empty high street spaces in the future, especially when things start to settle post COVID-19? Theo: What we’ve seen is the conversion of many high streets into old age people’s homes where they’ve just built loads and loads of retirement homes, sheltered accommodation because it’s in close proximity – right on top of the high street. If that’s what we’re planning – to turn high streets into retirement villages – then that’s a different story altogether because that’s what you’re going to get. But high streets have really been the backbone of the community. So, you start destroying it and everybody stays in their homes and you’ve got millions and millions and millions of vans driving around and polluting the atmosphere, delivering a £4 or a £5 or a £3 product. Does that really make sense? What do you think about a digital tax? Theo: The Exchequer needs to collect income and that’s a great way of doing it.                     I’ll move on a little bit here. In the intro we mentioned Small Business Sunday which, on the day of recording (October 12th), launched 10 years ago yesterday. In your view, what is the greatest success story to come out of SBS? Theo: It’s got 3000 businesses at different sizes, different levels of activity. The biggest success story is the fact that it exists, and it allows small businesses and medium-sized businesses, all of a sudden, to get a leg up, get PR, get a social media boost, support for other SBS winners in the network. It boosts sales. It offers opportunities for them to collaborate. It gets them together at our annual event to hear great speakers, talk to them and inspire them about what the future holds. Don’t forget that it’s really tough to be a small business – 50 per cent of businesses fail within the first two years. And that’s probably normal because they haven’t got the skillset, the information, the support that they need. Some fail and then go on to run really successful businesses because they’ve learned from their failures. So, the whole gambit of SBS is to try and assist to lower that failure rate and give support and all of the things that small businesses need. It’s tough – if you’ve got two or three kids and you’re running a business from your kitchen table and you’ve got to balance a household. Where do you go for help when things aren’t running your way? Who can you talk to that’s having or has had the same experience as you? I can guarantee that someone form SBS has and someone will be able to talk to you about it. And somebody when you’re having a tough time is going to be having a really good time and there’s nothing better than to talk to somebody to bring you out of those doldrums and give you that burst of enthusiasm that you desperately need to get you going. Anna: Sometimes that’s all you need – I’ve seen some of the comments back and forth on the thread and it’s quite the community.   As mentioned in the intro as well, you struggled at school because you have dyslexia. From the research I’ve done, it seems like people with dyslexia felt discouraged at school (‘you have this, so you can’t do that’) but went on to be successful entrepreneurs because they worked hard at their other qualities, like social skills. How does that align with your experience of school and going into business? Theo: Oh, that describes me. When I turned 16, they showed me the door. Not because I was particularly disruptive, but because I was a lost cause. I wasn’t going to get any examinations. Anna: They dismissed you before you even took them? Theo: No, I did sit a few, but I ended up with great big ‘U’s. In fairness, I did get one certificate, and it was a Scottish certificate in colouring in maps. It was geography. And the reason I say it was a Scottish certificate is because we had the most amazing Scottish lady teacher who worked incredibly but had got all of our attention and made it very interesting. I always call it my Scottish certificate in colouring in maps. It was clear school wasn’t for me. Even to get through to 16, I had loads and loads of workarounds to try and get my work and homework done. I couldn’t do it in a traditional way. I was always problem-solving to try and achieve what other kids were achieving in minutes. It took me hours. I always found workarounds to deal with the issues so that when I actually went to work, dealing with issues and problems was a piece of cake – I’d been doing it all of my life. Some kids go to work, who had an academic upbringing at school, sit there and there’s a problem. Now they’ve got a problem. So that was one of the things that I benefited from. Anna: What do you mean when you say workarounds? Could you elaborate a bit? Theo: For instance, my first day at work, I had to go with a picture in my pocket. If I’m doing numbers – which I’m not bad at, to be honest with you – I couldn’t remember my times tables. It was a nightmare. But I could find workarounds. For instance, if I needed to do 12x12, it’d be 10x12 which is 120, and two more equals 24. That’d be 144. Or I’d break it down into fives or threes or ones to get there or find percentages. You always had to find different ways, it takes longer, but you get there. Anna: Exactly – and that’s what’s important. Theo: And then the biggest thing that changed my life was computers. I no longer had to worry about spelling or rubbish handwriting. All of these things I could get over, so I really embraced technology very early. Anna: That’s an advantage in a way, isn’t it? Theo: It is an advantage – and always has been – hence why I embraced eCommerce and digital and I embraced computers and had one of the first computers. I learned to program because there wasn’t any programs to give me what I wanted. I thought, “It can’t be that difficult, can it?” It gives you a push. It’s interesting to see that other entrepreneurs like Lord Sugar, Richard Branson and Jamie Oliver have dyslexia as well. Theo: Well, of course, a lot of dyslexic people are pushed to be entrepreneurs because they can’t get a job anywhere else. The key thing is that that it’s difficult to get a job when you can’t spell or you can’t read very fast. I can read, believe you me, I can read. Give me a contract and I will read it front to back and I will understand it and I will be as good as anybody else, but it will take me three times as long as anybody else to do. It’s just a speed thing. Exactly. Fortunately, we are in a better place now, especially in schools with picking up dyslexia earlier on, allowing longer exams and that sort of thing. But if you’ve got someone out there who’s still at school, has dyslexia and wants to be an entrepreneur, what kind of things would you say to them? Theo: Well, the good news is that it will be one of the least resistant paths open to them. You’ll find it hard to compete in the jobs sector when people have got all of these qualifications and you haven’t. But all I can say to them is make sure that when you become an entrepreneur, become an entrepreneur doing something that you love and are passionate about. You can become an entrepreneur doing lots of things but find something that you’re passionate about because on those dark, wet winter days, when things are not running according to plan and you’re down to your last few quid, you need that passion, that enthusiasm, that drive, to get you out of it. And if you’re doing something you’re not really passionate about, then you might, just might, throw in the towel. But it’s about doing something you’re passionate about. That’s the best chance of success. Anna: Well, that seems like a great place to wrap up. Thank you for coming on the podcast, Theo. Theo: Absolute pleasure. Find out more about Theo at theopaphitis.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more articles on retail and supporting employees with dyslexia. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.   

In this episode of Small Business Snippets, I chat to John Tusa, author, journalist and one of the founding presenters of BBC’s Newsnight.  He shares his experiences of the boardroom and how risk analysis and cumbersome objectives can overshadow your organisation's core purpose.  You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on leadership and creativity in business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Here's the transcript of John Tusa's podcast interview Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have John Tusa, author, journalist and one of the founding presenters of BBC’s Newsnight. He’s served on several boards including The British Museum, the Clore Leadership Programme and, since 2014, the European Union Youth Orchestra. On top of that, John was the managing director of the BBC World Service and London’s Barbican Centre. Today we’re going to be talking about the secrets of the boardroom, as outlined in his latest book, On Board: The Insider’s Guide to Surviving Life in the Boardroom. Anna: Hi John. John: Hi Anna. Anna: How are you doing? John: Pretty well, thank you. Looking forward to this, looking forward to talking to you. Great. So as mentioned in the intro, I’m going to start with your latest book, On Board: The Insider’s Guide to Surviving Life in the Boardroom. In the book, you talk about the importance of having a plurality of expertise, but at the same time make clear that artistic institutions and not-for-profits are very different from businesses. Are there any transferrable lessons from these types of boardroom to the business boardroom?   John: Well actually, my guru around governance, who was a major American businessman called Kenneth Dayton from Minneapolis, and he said that there is no difference between arts boards and cultural boards and corporate boards and, if anything, my British contacts said that cultural boards are much more complicated than business boards because they have so many different layers of accountability. There aren’t two worlds, there’s only one world and that is governance and the relationship between the supervisory board and the executive board. And, if anything, arts and culture boards are more complicated than the others. That’s not me saying it; that’s businesspeople saying it.   Ahh, that is interesting. I understand that, at times, the CEO of a company can also be the chairman [of the company board], but they can be very different roles. How do they differ, exactly? John: The CEO, managing director – call them what you want – are responsible for management, for actually running the place. And they are also responsible for devising the strategic direction of the organisation. The supervisory board are there to advise, help, encourage, monitor, warn and, if necessary, get rid of the chief executive. Again, my great American guru, Kenneth Dayton, said that governance is governance, that is, you look after the overall organisation, and management is management – and you mustn’t confuse them. And that is why anyone who thinks they can be a chairman and managing director, is riding readily, and speedily, for trouble. They’re separate functions. Somebody defined the role between the chairman and the chief executive as partnership, but separation. That is close partnership until the time that you have to sack them. That is an absolutely essential relationship – and a tension – but a constructive tension, at the heart of the governance management business. Right – so this is typically one of the most turbulent relationships you’d find in the boardroom? John: They can be. But on the other hand, I had at least two, maybe three, very good relationships with either the chairman when I was chief executive or the chief executive when I was chairman. And when you get it right, it is extremely productive, it’s very enjoyable and it’s very good for the organisation concerned. Let’s be quite clear – any organisation which has a bad relationship between the chair and the chief executive is in real trouble – and I saw several of those. You can’t take too much trouble over getting that relationship right and making sure the relationship is right. One of the key things about it is absolute openness and transparency. I said to my chief executive at the University of the Arts London, ‘You will always hear it from me first. You will never hear rumours and you will never hear gossip. If there’s anything to deal with, you and I will deal with it first – alone and properly.’ If you do it that way, you have trust, you have openness, you have transparency – and you can have a terrific and successful relationship. For a business owner or director who is fairly new, who isn’t used to the boardroom environment, perhaps is intimidated by it, what advice do you have for them in terms of survival? John: It shouldn’t be survival, in the sense that it is a key part of the relationship. If you are whatever size of enterprise and you have a supervisory board, the assumption is that it is a constructive partnership. But, as I mentioned before, the supervisory board mustn’t interfere in management. And also, a chief executive must make sure that the supervisory board doesn’t interfere in governance. It may be necessary sometimes to say ‘look, this is an executive decision’ or ‘this is part of management’ but it ought not to be a relationship of fear and, in any case, the chief executive should always have some idea of who the chair will be bringing on to the supervisory board. The really important thing is that the chair has to make sure that members of the trustee board are there to provide their individual skills, yes, but also to give good overall advice, but not to interfere. On that basis, it should be positive, harmonious, constructive and lead to the success of the organisation. How about managing tensions that come up between member of the board – what’s the best way to go about resolving those? John: It all depends what they are, but if there are tensions between individual members, you might have to decide that one of them is in due course invited to step down. Or it’s very important for the chair to make it clear if a member is overstepping their mark, being too intrusive, taking up too much time or being too unnecessarily dominant. The chair is responsible for the way the board works and they have to make it clear. I had one case at the University of the Arts London where I was chairman of the court of governors and one of the members of the court was the trade union representative and he refused to understand that he was there to look after the interests of the university as a whole and not just the trade union members. He would stand up and he would harangue the court as if we were a trade union meeting. I put up with this for two meetings and then I had a huge row with him and told him that this was not an acceptable way of behaving. It was a big public row, I didn’t enjoy it and in a way I regretted it but it made it clear to him and to everybody that that was not how the court was going to run and it worked very much better afterwards.    Anna: In the book you talk about managing egos. I suppose it’s just a case of reading the situation and on balance knowing how to deal with different types of personality in the boardroom. John: Yes, in general and overwhelmingly, the people I sat on boards with, who are people with real authority and substance and responsibility in the areas they came from, overwhelmingly understood that they were there to support the organisation. You are holding in trust for others. It’s not something where you play individual games with it. And overwhelmingly, the people I sat on boards with understood that very well and left their egos at the door. Absolutely. In the past I knew you’ve spoken about having ‘the wrong ambition’. Tell me a little more about what you mean by that and how it can affect your standing as a leader. John: I think that sometimes in life, and this is nothing to do directly with governance, that you may misjudge what your abilities are or what you might be doing. If you want this example, the worst one was when I decided to accept the offer to be head of a Cambridge college and I did that for all the wrong reasons. I did that because it seemed a posh thing to do, which it was. It seemed a good address, which it was. It was absolutely the wrong job for me. I shouldn’t have touched it and I lasted around six or seven months. There’s a sense of what can I do, what can I do well and when am I being prodded by a false ambition and false vanity? That’s an important part of self-preservation. There may also be some times when you shouldn’t accept a chairmanship. For a very short time, I had the post of chairman of the Victoria and Albert Museum and chairman of the University of the Arts London. That was, in retrospect, very unwise. Fortunately, the people at the University of the Arts London thought, ‘well, if he’s going to be chairman of the V&A as well, it’s obvious that that will be his first priority’ and at a very early stage said, ‘look, we’re worried about this, and we don’t think it will work. Would you like to think about it?’ And when I thought about it, I realised that they were absolutely right. It won’t work and once again, I’ve gone into that for the wrong kind of ambition. There will be a clash, and because I’d said yes to the University of the Arts London first, I stood down from the chair of the V&A. So that was the wrong kind of ambition and thank goodness, I was saved from getting into, what could have been, a very confused situation. Talking more about the board as a whole, in terms of chaos and crises, there’s possibly no bigger than what we’ve been experiencing over the past months. How do you manage difficulties in the boardroom when you’re going through something like a global pandemic?       John: With difficulty, and I think I’d try to go back to the basic principles of management and governance. Say, if I were chair of some organisation, I would expect the board of management to come up with a strategy – six months, one year, eighteen months, two years – first a strategy for survival, then a strategy for development then a longer term strategy. That would be put to the supervisory board, we would look at what the financial implications were, decide whether it was doable or not doable and then there would be a process of the supervisory board reviewing what management suggested, sometimes suggesting less, sometimes suggesting more, sometimes suggesting that they should be more ambitious in these times. You can’t, for example, because there’s a pandemic, just say ‘we’ll stop doing anything’ because actually, the implications are too great. So the times are tough but the way that people behave in them makes it even more important that they behave as a good board and executive together should behave. The behaviour shouldn’t change.    I’d like to go a little bit off-piste here. You’ve said that the BBC increasingly exercises ‘business dogma over creative values.’ What do you mean by that and how do you maintain creative values in a growing business? John: I come back without apology to ‘why are we here? Why are you here? Why is the organisation here? Why is the new organisation starting up?’ Because somebody wants to do something.   Business tools are just that: they’re a set of tools. If you are observing them and that’s all you’re doing, I don’t think that you’ll ever succeed. There are toolkits to help you succeed. What worries me about the BBC is to, too often, they go into forms of business behaviour which lose sight of the nature and the purposes of broadcasting and programmes and the needs of the audience. I’ll give you one example which I think may help. That is the whole business of risk analysis. Everyone says you need risk analysis and you’ve got to be very serious, you’ve got to know what’s coming over the hill. On one occasion we were looking at risk analysis for the university at the University of the Arts London. By the time the centre had listed its risks, every one of the six colleges had listed their risks and different faculties had listed their risks, it was about six or seven pages and, as I recall, about 130 risks. It’s ludicrous. And it was the chair of the audit committee, who’s an accountant, who said ‘I can’t deal with this, nobody can deal with this’. He said ‘let’s have eight, ten, a dozen, maybe – a dozen main strategic risks. He said let’s get rid of the rest. This becomes a separate activity in its own right, dreaming up risks. It’s ludicrous. And he also said, ‘if you’re going to have a risk register, why not have an opportunity register?’ He said that risk and opportunity are different sides of the same coin. Anna: Yeah, I understand. And I think it’s a good exercise for business owners to have this opportunity register. John: Can I also say about objectives? A good colleague of mine, actually he was the chair of the British Museum and he used to run Unilever. On one occasion, he was at the gathering of chairs of the major cultural institutions, had a meeting organised by the department of culture, media and sport. They were discussing – the chairs and the department, ministers and so on, the whole business of objectives. This man who used to chair Unilever said, ‘ you know, in my years of chairing Unilever, we would set about seven or eight objectives, and if I got most of the people, most of the time, to work to half a dozen of them, I thought we were doing very well.’ And he noticed that the secretary of state looked a little pale. Afterwards a senior civil servant came up to him and said, ‘you know when you said you could work to eight objectives and if six were observed, you were doing very well? He said that we in the department set 48 objectives this morning.’ That again is an example of a management tool becoming something completely useless. And by the by, the man who invented objectives said, ‘if an objective isn’t being met, you may have the wrong one. Ditch it, think of another one.’ That’s not a great use of your resources. I guess my final question is what advice do you have about setting objectives in the boardroom? John: I’ve always had a, what some would regard as an over-light view of objectives. I was managing director of the Barbican Centre for 12 years. In general, I say this without false modesty, it was a much better organisation at the end of 12 years than it was at the beginning. It wasn’t just me, of course, that was my team. And from time to time, people would say to me ‘did the corporation of London set you strict objectives, what you had to do? And I said no, they never said anything, but I knew that I worked to four objectives: 1) run a good arts centre 2) run it within the financial limits that you have 3) bring credit to the corporation of London so that everyone can say ‘isn’t the corporation of London wonderful? They fund the Barbican and 4) don’t insult the Lord Mayor. In 12 years, we didn’t need any other objectives. I would say strip yourself of these things and say,‘are they helping me do the things that I want to do, what the organisation needs done or are they a substitute for making sure the organisation works properly?’ And if you can shed all that and keep things clear, then the governance will work better and the management will certainly work better. What about critics that would say that you need SMART goals that are measurable and based on precise numbers? John: The answer to that is measures measure what measures measure. Measures hardly ever get to the heart of what an organisation is about. You look at the finances the whole time, of course you do. In the case of the BBC World Service, you looked at the audiences. You’re aware of numbers, you use them, but you don’t say that such and such a number is a success, and if we don’t it must be a failure. It’s much more complicated than that. They may be a guide, but they are not the most important thing which determines the success or failure of an organisation. Anna: Absolutely. I think in business today we do have a way of getting caught up in it and it causes a lot of tension and anxiety. Where, as you say, remembering what you’re doing, what people need and what keeps it going should be at the heart of it. Well, that seems like an ideal place to finish. Thanks ever so much for coming on the podcast, John. John: Thank you very much, Anna. Nice to talk to you. John’s latest book, On Board: The Insider’s Guide to Surviving Life in the Boardroom, has been published by Bloomsbury and is available now from Amazon and all other major book retailers. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more articles on leadership and creativity in business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening. 

In this episode I meet Rachel Elnaugh, businesswoman, author and one of the original Dragons. We talk about her time running Red Letter Days and what it means to be an evolutionary entrepreneur. Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles on wellbeing.  Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Would you prefer to read Rachel's interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Rachel Elnaugh, author, speaker, mentor, former Dragon and the creator of Red Letter Days. She launched the experience day voucher company in 1989 when she was 24 years old. And after a precarious start, a print brochure campaign launched it to success. This led to multiple awards and a place as one of the original Dragons on Dragon’s Den. The company went into administration in 2005 due to over-expansion and the remaining assets were bought by fellow Dragons, Peter Jones and Theo Paphitis. They eventually sold the firm to Buyagift and it’s now owned by French firm, The Smartbox Group.   Taking the lessons of Red Letter Days with her, Elnaugh now mentors business owners and speaks at events in the hope that fellow entrepreneurs can learn from her experiences. Anna: Hi Rachel. Rachel: Hi Anna. Thank you for that intro. Anna: Not at all. How are you doing? Rachel: Yeah good, thank you. Great. The first thing I’d like to ask you about is that you describe yourself as an ‘evolutionary entrepreneur’ – what do you mean by that, exactly? Rachel: Well, I’ve been on my own journey of transformation and particularly being a business mentor, have got really interested in what makes one person successful and one another not. That’s kind of my holy grail – to really understand what makes the difference which has kind of taken me on this journey of discovery through mindset, through energy work and metaphysics and so I do think there’s a new era of consciousness opening. I think I’m moving out of that old capitalist business paradigm into this new era, along with many other people, which is a very different way of doing business. It’s much more intuitive and much more about manifestation and effortless flow. If your focus isn’t capitalism, what is it? Rachel: Well, capitalism is fundamentally about scarcity and really about putting money ahead of all other considerations. As we move into this new era, we’re seeing that businesses that aren’t just about profit but are also very much about people and about the planet are really coming to the fore – those brands that embrace a much wider idea of success than just money. We’re seeing a massive change and we’re also starting to unravel some of the programmes of capitalism like scarcity. For example, with renewable energy, the sun never stops shining, the waves and the wind never stop. There’s so much natural resource to tap into that I think this deep programme of scarcity is being unravelled and uninstalled. Anna: Yeah, you can see in businesses now that a corporate social responsibility is non-negotiable. If the business doesn’t have an ethical basis then at least it’ll be embedded in their business plan. Rachel: Yeah, and I think it goes way beyond the veneer of corporate social responsibility of wrapping a company with that. I think the companies that are really powerfully coming through are ones that have actually got ethics at the heart of them. So, I think there’s a new breed of entrepreneur coming through which goes way beyond social enterprise, it’s people working from the heart, really passionate about their businesses and their brands. And wanting to do business but in a way that is very nourishing.                   Definitely, I agree. I’d like to talk a bit about Red Letter Days as well. You made a loss of £4.7m at the time that you realised something was amiss. According to previous reports, there were various issues: management consultants taking on too many projects, a dud CEO, suppliers going unpaid, your financial director keeping information from you. Rachel: I think that when a business goes wrong, a lot of waves hit the ship at the same time. Up until that point, we’d had a very successful company that was growing every year, that was profitable. In 2002, I started winning awards and getting on television. I think you can get the Midas touch and start to push too far and fast. Suddenly it’s driven by profit motives and ego rather than just wanting to create great products and experiences and services. We brought in some management consultants who recommended that it was time for the business to grow up and to parachute in a new chief executive to take it to the next level – we really thought we could groom the business to float it. It was really that process of over-expansion, as you said in the intro, that was our undoing. It was a very big lesson. I think if I had to share that lesson with other entrepreneurs I would say just grow organically and in a very steady way rather than trying to step change a business and leap to the next level. That was the mistake we made. Anna: So, there’s a surge in confidence – then a real dip in confidence – on your part. Rachel: Well, as I said, a lot of waves hit the ship at the same time, so we parachuted in a chief executive who was brilliant at spending money. He’d actually come in from Thomas Cook and he is the one who created the JMC brand which, literally the day before he joined, was closed down by Thomas Cook. That should have been a warning. I also didn’t have a strong enough finance director and I think that’s really crucial in a business, I realise now. To have a very trusted, rock-solid finance director is key. So we over-expanded, overspent and then crucially, our credit card takings were bonded by our bank. When we were forced into administration, we had £3.3m cash at bank. That was another big lesson in that whoever controls the money has all the power. We had a huge amount of cash at bank but we just couldn’t touch it. And the bank forced us into administration. When that bond was unbound over the next year, all of the vouchers had been redeemed, the actual cost of fulfilling them was only just over £1m. While the bond was appropriate, the level of it was way in excess of what was necessary. And it was that cash flow that strangled the business and forced us into administration. There were a lot of factors involved and it was a very very dark, difficult learning process for me. From your learnings, what kind of advice would you give entrepreneurs about finding the right bank, the right account, the right adviser for them?      Rachel: It was interesting because I remember having a discussion on the set of Dragon’s Den with Duncan Bannatyne, my fellow Dragon. I was telling him the problems at that time I was struggling with trying to get this bond lifted. And he just turned to me and said: ‘Rachel, the first rule of business: do not bank with Barclay’s’. And the thing is, you don’t really understand how much power a bank has over you until you run into problems. And I think some banks are more ruthless than others. It was a big learning curve. But I don’t want to sound like I’m blaming and in victim mode because in truth, we were undercapitalised. And it’s very difficult to re-finance yourself out of a cash flow issue like that. If I could’ve re-run the clock it would’ve been much better for us to have got some proper venture capital funding before embarking on the expansion plan rather than trying to fund it out of cash flow. Tell me about the months after the company went into administration – what was it like for you? Rachel: It was a bit of a double-edged thing because on one side of things, it was quite tragic for me because I’d spent 16 years building this company literally from nothing, it was literally like my baby. I’d poured my whole life into it. All of my passion and all of my money, I’d lost that. On the other side of things, it was so stressful towards the end that when I finally signed the papers and put it into administration – and I really had no choice – it was a massive relief and a release. I’d just had my fourth son the week before so that was a great gift from God, you know. It was August, the sun was shining, I had a newborn baby and also, I’d just been on Dragon’s Den. So, I had this new world opening up to me of being this TV celebrity entrepreneur. And even though I got annihilated by the press, I was given a book deal. I wrote a book called Business Nightmares about the fine line between success and failure. That came out in May 2008 and in September 2008, world economies crashed, and we had the banking crash. And this repositioning of myself as a business survivor was actually perfect timing because it opened up a whole new world of speaking at business events, becoming a mentor and creating lots of products and ways of helping other people on their entrepreneurial journey. It was synchronistic and beautiful even though at the time it felt like the worst possible thing that could ever happen to me. Anna: I read that you found a note that you had written some time before about what you wanted for the future. It said something along the lines of ‘I will sell off Red Letter Days’. Rachel: This was long before I understood the power of words and the law of attraction. A friend of mine was training to be a life coach and she needed guinea pig clients. I said, ‘I don’t need a life coach but I’ll be your guinea pig client’. She got me to write this life plan and I found it after the company had crashed. I had written this several years before, but I found the piece of paper. On it I’d written: ‘By 2006, get rid of Red Letter Days so I can spend more time at home with my children, be creative and write.’ And so the universe had delivered that little cosmic order exactly to plan. You notice I didn’t write on there: ‘Sell Red Letter Days for £20m, be creative and write’, it said ‘get rid of’. And ‘get rid of’ is a very angry energy and so the universe got rid of it for me. We have to be very careful about our spelling, spelling is very powerful. You have to be careful what you ask for because it’s delivered often exactly to the word. What about planning what would happen within your business, including the staff. What was the process there? Rachel: We didn’t want to go into administration and we were working on all sorts of ways to re-finance. I had a re-financing offer from HBOS and I was looking for match equity funding. What happened was one of our suppliers – and sometimes in these situations, suppliers can be their own worst enemy – took a winding up order against the company. Could you briefly describe what a winding up order is for our listeners who don’t know? Rachel: Basically, if a company owes you money and they don’t pay, you can enter into court a winding up order which is if they don’t pay, you’re going to wind up the company and get paid that way. It’s a bit like dropping a nuclear bomb on someone to get what you want. Usually, in normal circumstances, if you get a winding up order from a creditor then you just pay them. But in our situation – it was a long time ago – but there was a legal reason why we couldn’t just pay them because we couldn’t create preferential creditors. When a winding up order has been put in, it basically opens you up to every other creditor. What happened was the creditors started arriving at the company offices to try and take the assets. So the only way we could protect the staff was firstly to lock the doors. We were in London and we had staff in our head office in Muswell Hill on the phone saying, ‘There are people at the doors, what do we do?’ We had to say, ‘You just have to lock the doors.’ We were advised by the lawyers that the only way to protect the company and its assets from these creditors in their vans was to put the company into administration. Through that winding up order we were forced into administration and as a result, no one got paid because I couldn’t complete the re-financing and it was game over. It was a very fine line between success and failure. Had we not had that winding up order, I could potentially have maybe, and it’s always an if, completed on the HBOS deal, the bond would’ve been released because we would have re-financed. Then we could have traded through and floated the company which was the plan because it had growth and it had profitability and it had a great brand. But alas, alack, it was not to be. How long would the re-financing process take? Rachel: All of my time was spent in meetings with bank and financiers, so I had the deal agreed. It was just a case of finding match equity funding. I actually did go to Peter [Jones] and Theo [Paphitis] and said, ‘I’ve got this deal. Could you match-fund it?’ There was potential they could’ve done that, but they felt there was a bigger opportunity to push it through administration, although that proved not to be the case. It is a bit like going nuclear, pushing your company through administration. And certainly with that industry, they couldn’t wipe the deck by putting it through administration because no one would supply the business without getting paid. It was quite messy.                                          The experiences industry is huge now. If you could have started Red Letter Days at any time within the past 30 years, when would you have started it? Rachel: We were the pioneers of the industry. And really, the 1980s were about how much you owned and the 1990s were about what you could experience, so the timing of creating the company was perfect because it captured the zeitgeist of the era. We weren’t the first company that did experiences, but we were the first company to truly embrace the concept of experiential giving. Anna: I suppose – I’m not sure about our listeners – but for me it seems like a pretty recent shift towards less buying of stuff to more buying of experiences, but it’s interesting to find out that back then that it was emerging – it’s always great to get in on that emerging market. Rachel: Yeah, for sure – we were creating that as we went. And a lot of people picked up on it, so we had lots of copycat companies and competitors. Then Virgin Experiences came in on it followed by all the retailers. And now it’s commonplace to see experiences as your prize or gift as opposed to a TV or a tangible piece of technology or kit.           You’ve said that part of the struggle of Red Letter Days initially was getting experience providers on board with something that was novel at the time – what would you say to entrepreneurs running a business based on a fairly new concept? Rachel: In essence, Red Letter Days was a marketing portal. When we launched in 1989, everyone’s books were full, and business was booming. Then the first recession happened in the early 1990s and people’s revenues started dropping. Even though a recession was opening, that was a great opportunity for us because people could see that their sales were dropping, and they wanted more promotion – especially free promotion – which is what we were offering. So I think in every era there’s always opportunity in adversity and I think you just have to tune into the market and be resourceful and just go with the flow and find out where people’s point of pain is and provide a solution to it.      Anna: Well, that’s it from me – is there anything you would like to add? Rachel: No, that’s fine. Hopefully that’s been useful. Anna: Yeah, it has been. Thank you so much. You can find out more about Rachel at rachelelnaugh.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more guidance on mental wellbeing and expanding your company. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.   

In this episode I meet Deborah Meaden, businesswoman, author and Dragon. We talk about her definition of success and what makes a disastrous investment pitch. Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles on pitching to investors.  Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Want to read the Deborah Meaden's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Deborah Meaden, investor, businesswoman, author and one of the longest-serving Dragons on Dragons’ Den, second only to Peter Jones. She launched her first company at 19 years old, importing glass and ceramics and supplying UK retailers such as Harvey Nichols. She then took on a franchise of Stefanel, an Italian clothing company and sold it two years later. Next came her family’s amusement arcade business, where she went from shop floor worker to operations director before moving to Weststar Holidays. Within two years she became managing director and did a management buyout in 1999. Then in 2005, she sold the business for £33m. After deciding that retirement wasn’t for her, Deborah joined Dragons’ Den in 2006 and has since invested £3,746,000. Anna: Hello, Deborah. Deborah: Good morning. I’m still smarting for being called second best to Peter Jones! Anna: How are you doing today? Deborah: Good! Yeah, very good day – so far. Anna: Yeah, that’s it – you want to touch wood but unfortunately there’s not much wood in here at the moment…  Right, I’ll start off with something quite general. In the past you’ve said that you like success and successful people. How do you define success? Deborah: I can tell when someone is successful because they’re comfortable with themselves. And it’s odd because often when people think of success, they think of these driven people who are constantly reaching for bigger and more and more money and more profit and whatever. But actually, I consider success someone who’s reached that stage in life where they’ve thought, ‘This is great, this is good. It might not be great forever but I’m enjoying what I’m doing now – I’m having a great impact. And the thing that I’ve set out to achieve I’m achieving and I’m achieving well.’ That is my idea of success. You can tell when you’re around successful people – they enjoy it, they’re comfortable with themselves. Anna: So, it’s not necessarily financial. Deborah: It’s easy to say it’s not financial. Of course, in the early days when I didn’t have money, it was financial. But when you reach a level you can start thinking that money isn’t the be all and end all. The thing I always say about money is that it’s kind of the measure of business, or it has been in the past. It’s, ‘If I’m good at business, I make great profits.’ I think that’s changing and that suits me better. It’s more a case of, ‘What do I want my output to be?’ Of course, I’ve got to make money, otherwise I wouldn’t have a business. But do I want to have a social impact as well? Do I want to feel good about what I do? I’m much more comfortable in that space. Anna: Yeah, we’re seeing businesses move towards having more of an ethical basis in their business models, supporting animals, doing charity contributions on the side. Deborah: Yes, and I think it doesn’t have to be through charity, just behaving well. If you believe in something, it should be reflected through your business and treating your people well, being respectful of them. Making an impact in your community. Sometimes I feel the charity side can be absolving yourself of responsibility: ‘Let’s just give them the money and they can do the work for me!’ I feel there’s a bigger responsibility – we should all behave well in our business lives.            And no matter how successful you are as an entrepreneur, everyone has their own set of strengths and weaknesses. You said that when you were at Weststar, you lost some good people because you didn’t temper your approach to nurture them. Have you adapted to different personalities in the workplace since, and if so, how did you got about it?    Deborah: That is very very true. I’m very robust. And anybody who’s watched Dragons’ Den will know that I’m very robust. But what I mean when I’m robust is that I throw things out there and I’m hoping that people are going to challenge me. I’m not just saying it because I want everyone to go, ‘Oh yes, I agree with you.’ I put things out there and I want a lively, energetic conversation around the stuff. But I did realise early on that that doesn’t suit everybody. Sometimes I’d say things and they’d think, ‘Ohhhh, alright! Okay!’ They don’t debate it, they don’t discuss it with me. I think that’s part of experience: take yourself off transmit and receive as well as transmit. Anna: How did you put that into practice? Deborah: It’s a bit odd because, of course, life is about communication. I just realised I had a great group of friends that I communicate and debate with and I listen to and I think, ‘Why am I behaving differently at work?’ People are people – just because they happen to be in the work environment. Why don’t I just the use the skills I use when I’m outside of work? When you first meet people you sense them, you feel them out. Are they shy, are they very robust, are they gregarious? What are they? And you temper yourself to them. I just remembered to do that in the workplace and of course, the response was amazing. It just meant that people with a different style could find their style with me. We found a way of working together as opposed to [them] thinking, ‘I need to just shrivel up and leave the room because she’s said something that she obviously wants to happen!’ One of your greater strengths as an entrepreneur is your frankness. And we’re surrounded by so many options these days and plagued by indecision. How do you make good decisions as a business owner? Deborah: Well, the first thing is learning to make decisions, good or bad. It’s better to make a bad decision than it is to make no decision. In making no decision, you destabilise everything and everybody gets into this awful limbo land and thinks, ‘Ohhhhh, I really don’t know what’s going on’ and they lose the ability to make decisions. So learning to consider, know what you need to know, and the moment to say: ‘Right – I’ve heard enough, now I need to make a decision.’ I have watched people get trapped in this, ‘Oh, well I’ll just ask’ and ‘Maybe if we ask this’ and sometimes we get to a stage where we’re doing research and I’ll say ‘Okay, we need to stop the research now, because I think we know enough’. Otherwise, we shouldn’t be doing our job. The researchers aren’t going to tell us what we should do. They’re going to give us the information to help us make our decisions. We need to make those decisions. And coming back to different personality types, how would somebody who is perhaps less confident, less decisive – how do they make the most of their qualities as a business leader? Deborah: It’s interesting that you say ‘business leader’ because I was reading a really interesting book on leadership. It was saying that people need different leaders in different environments and at different times. If you think about the history of the country, we needed different people at different times and businesses are the same. Leaders are given permission to lead. It’s not like, ‘I’m a fantastic leader – I can walk into any environment and anybody will follow me.’ Because actually, if you don’t do a good job, I promise you that your permission to lead will be taken away very very quickly. People will just start finding ways around you. They’ll think, ‘You know what? They don’t know what they’re doing so I’ll carry on with my thing.’ So I actually think that knowledge and experience and proving that you’re good eventually attracts people around you. [They] work out really quickly, ‘Who is it that makes my life better because I can do my job better? I know they’re going to help me do my job better.’ Be good at what you do, be really helpful to other people. Recognise that you are all in this together because the more helpful you are, the more people look to you. We all think of leaders as these big strident people who are born leaders but actually in the wrong environment – and the wrong time – people will just say, ‘Oh, shush’. Anna: But sometimes people just need to be given the chance to come out and make those decisions. Deborah: Absolutely, and to get the feedback on those decisions. A lot of it is a lack of confidence. I’ve seen so many people sit in a room – and this has happened a lot since I’ve been on Dragons’ Den – suddenly, it’s like I’m the expert on everything. I’ve been on television, so I know everything. I’ve got confident, competent people who know way more about their subject than me, who will not stick their stake in the ground because they think, ‘Deborah’s in the room – she must know more than anybody.’ I’m like, ‘Guys, if I think I know everything, what am I doing sitting in a room talking to you lot?! I’ll just carry on, thank you. You know way more than me so could you just carry on making the decisions you made before the day I was on Dragons’ Den? It’s much more difficult now to get people to challenge me – and I love challenge. What’s the point of sitting in a room with people who are just agreeing with me? Anna: I feel like I should disagree with you right now, but I actually do agree!                   One of the companies you have invested in, ran into difficulty last year [the founder is no longer part of the company]. How do you know when it’s time to walk away from a business? Deborah: In the case of Gripit, it’s what to do. It’s come through and it’s selling to the US market. It’s when to stop or it’s when to say, in the case of Gripit, actually we’ve got a fantastic product here – no one ever questioned the product. So, what we’re going to do now is present it in a different way and have a completely different structure sitting behind it. I’ve got a feeling that if I wasn’t there, it probably would’ve gone. It was definitely in a very difficult moment in time. But I was able to see through that, underpinned by a product. What I do see sometimes is a product that is clearly failing. When you’ve got to wander around, holding up the product going, ‘Buy me, please please buy me’, that worries me much much more. If you’ve got a good product but the structure in which you’re selling it isn’t quite right, that’s a problem you can get through. If you’ve got a bad product and you’re having to work too hard to get out there, that’s the time to call it a day. You’ve got to understand why you’re at that difficult moment. Every single business I’ve ever been in has had a difficult moment and if you can’t work out what’s causing it – and see a way through it – that’s the time to stop. But if you can work out what’s caused it and think, ‘Oh, I can fix that’ then clearly, you need to carry on.      Anna: Coming back to Dragons’ Den, I’ve read that when you do a day of shooting you record six pitches. Most are about an hour long, but some are as short as 15 minutes while others are two hours long. What are the common themes run among the not-so-good pitches, the ones that tend to end after 15 minutes? Deborah: I’m not sure there’s a common theme. Sometimes it’s purely and simply: ‘That isn’t going to work’. It’s just, all five of us – and we’re all very different – but you’ve got a lot of experience sitting there, in a lot of sectors. And we’re not always right. Fantastic businesses go out there and prove us wrong, that’s brilliant, that’s fine. But sometimes you just think, ‘You have not thought that out’ and you fall at the first hurdle because what’s your market? How are you going to make it? What does it cost to make?        Anna: So, people come in with no idea… Deborah: Well, they come in with an idea sometimes and that is the problem: there’s a mile of difference between an idea and a business proposition. You’ve got to have something that I’m investing in – not just a thought. That’s one of the big issues.    Anna: Although that is to say that they’re quick because they’re weaker pitches than the ones that are longer and you want to know more. Deborah: Oh, absolutely. I think the shortest pitch I’ve ever seen is 11 minutes and it was a product where everybody was clearly just wrong on all counts. It was badly thought out, it was badly presented, there was no idea what the market was going to be, didn’t know what the cost of making it was going to be, didn’t know what the cost of selling it was going to be… that’s a quick pitch! There’s nothing to invest in here. I think the longest pitch I’ve ever been on was three hours. And to be honest, by that point you’re interested. We don’t sit there for three hours and don’t invest – we’re trying to unpick a business. Anna: Wow. What do you discuss in a three-hour pitch? Deborah: We’re trying to get to the stage where an investment is going to proceed because once we get out of the Den, not all of the businesses pass due diligence. I don’t want to waste my time or their time – life’s too short to agree something and then find afterwards, ‘Damn, if I’d known that I wouldn’t’ve made an offer’. So if you’re interested, it takes longer because we’re trying to eke out all of the things so it shortens the process. In my experience, when you come out of the Den, the longer it takes for that deal to get away, the less likely the deal is going to be. And I don’t want to walk out the Den and find out that actually, they haven’t got a patent, they’ve made a patent application. Or their numbers are wrong by a factor of 100. Or – this happens a lot – they have loans that were not disclosed in the Den. And I specifically ask now – people sometimes don’t count a Director’s Loan as a loan. Well, of course it’s a loan! It’s still a loan. So often we’ll come out and then find out that something wasn’t disclosed that should’ve been disclosed. Because in good faith, we’re both trying to find out about each other. And there’s no point me agreeing a deal in the Den and then walking out and thinking, ‘Ohhh, if only I’d known that, I’d have never…’ Anna: And you’re hoping to build a long-term business relationship so keeping stuff from each other at that point is never a good sign. Deborah: Actually, the deal just won’t proceed. We are agreeing to invest but between that and the investment is normal due diligence that you would do on any business. I might as well know in the Den what’s going on and if you haven’t told me something material, the trust is gone and I need to trust people. Anna: What’s the worst pitch you’ve seen in the Den? Deborah: Oh, it’s hard to tell. False fingernails for cats was a funny one. There was a fantastic – it was a guy who came up with an invention of a fold-out sunbed in a suitcase which you can take on holiday with you and take your suitcase down to the beach and then unfold it – because obviously people use all the beach chairs. You think, ‘You don’t seriously believe I’m going to carry a huge big suitcase on holiday with me.’ Anna: People only have so much checked-in baggage, you know? Deborah: At least he was thinking! Anna: Yeah, he can make one for himself. How about pitches that you turned down at the time but turned out to be quite successful after the show. Were there any of those that you thought, ‘Oh, I wish I got involved in that’? Deborah: I’m not an ‘I wish I had’ kind of person. I put everything into achieving the thing that I’m trying to achieve and if I don’t, I don’t. There will always be other opportunities. And I’m not just saying this: that’s the best kind of mistake to make. If you don’t invest in somebody and they go on and make a huge success, it’d be a bit churlish not to think, ‘Well good on you’. Anna: That’s a very mature approach to take. Deborah: We started off by saying I like success. I get no pleasure from seeing people fail. Even if a fleeting ‘I told you so’ crosses my mind, it’s very fleeting. Anna: I know for some people it must be quite difficult. Deborah: I’m actually quite hard to interview because people ask me, ‘What are you most proud of?’ and I honestly don’t know. I don’t really look back, I don’t worry, I don’t carry stuff around with me. Bad stuff has happened and at the time it was awful and two days later it’s gone. I’ve always looked forward. I’ve always been more interested in what’s coming up than what’s going on behind.                             Anna: And in the spirit of moving forward, we have a Budget coming up. What support would you like to see to support small business owners? Deborah: I would definitely like to see the EIS and SEIS schemes maintained, just in case there’s any consideration that they go. Because if ever there was a time for people to get their investment out of the bank and working with small businesses, that’s what we should be doing. We should be supporting them. What else would I like to see for small business? I think this is a very very difficult Budget because we still don’t know about the Brexit scenario and we have no idea on the basis on which that’s going to be very difficult to say what you want for a business when you don’t know what the landscape is. You asking me this question in a normal landscape, I’d say, ‘You can do A and B and C and help’ but I have no idea what we’re aiming at anymore. So I really don’t know which levers to pull. That feels really awkward for somebody who spends their life making decisions and working out what is the best thing to do now. Anna: Yeah – business owners are planning three, five, ten years in advance. They’ve just been at a point where they can’t. Deborah: Listen, we’re in a really funny time at the moment. We don’t know the landscape and we can only control what we can control. But I really do worry that there are some businesses that are really not looking at the potential pitfalls and preparing themselves for it. I’ve spoken to a lot of businesses who at first thought, ‘Well, of course Brexit won’t affect me’. That’s because they weren’t doing business in the EU, but they’re not really looking back through their supply chains, not understanding what could happen to the data within their business. There’s no agreement on data transfer. So, I think businesses should just look into themselves for a moment and think, ‘Actually, which bits of these could be affected in terms of a future trade deal?’ There’ll be a lot of stuff that’s left undone and you need to know your risk. With a lot of my businesses I’ve had to set up offices in Ireland, almost as an insurance to say ‘just in case we can’t directly trade with the EU without pretty hefty tariffs. I need to find a way of trading’. There are things you can do to mitigate on a best guess scenario – you’ve got to understand what’s at risk in your business.   Anna: That seems like a good place to wrap up. Thank you for coming on the podcast, Deborah. Deborah: Thank you for inviting me. I enjoyed it. Anna: You can learn more about Deborah at deborahmeaden.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more insight on preparing for Brexit planning and how to pitch to investors. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.   

Big data sounds great, but how can marketers extract insights and put together reports without spending all of their time crunching numbers? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Anna Shutko of Supermetrics talks about how marketers today are dealing with data. From juggling data from 5+ sources, to wrangling spreadsheets and figuring out how to continuously monitor your data pipeline, Anna shares how Supermetrics clients are taking on these challenges while saving themselves considerable time - and how you can, too. Highlights from my conversation with Anna include: Supermetrics is a marketing automation tool that transfers data from a variety of sources to the marketer's destination of choice. In addition, Supermetrics offers data warehousing through Supermetrics for BigQuery. Supermetrics' goal is to make marketers' lives better and easier so they can focus on what actually matters. Anna says that marketers today need to be technologists who know their business, know their platforms, know at which stage of the funnel they want to use the platforms, and know how to use data from all those platforms together to create a comprehensive narrative from their data. According to Anna, the best KPI for any marketer is revenue. If revenue is growing, then marketing is doing its job. One of Supermetrics' customers was able to cut the time they spend on reporting down from three to four days a week to a few hours. With a platform like Supermetrics, which allows you to continuously keep your data updated in real time, you can simply check the data once a day, knowing that its up to date, and then go about your business. You can also simply provide your stakeholders (ex. board) with a link to view your data at their convenience. Anna says that the biggest mistake marketers make is to focus on vanity metrics like impressions. Resources from this episode: Marketing Technology Landscape Supergraphic  Supermetrics Reporting Template Gallery  Supermetrics Customer Success Stories Sleeping Giant Media Success Story Supermetrics HubSpot connector Supermetrics for BigQuery  Inbound Success Podcast episode 111 with Jake Neill  This Won't Scale playbook by Drift SaaStr Podcast for all things SaaS The Growth Hub Podcast for marketing topics Julian Shapiro's guides Listen to the podcast to learn more about how marketers are cutting their time spent on reporting using Supermetrics. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host, Kathleen Booth. And Today my guest is Anna Shutko, who is a product marketing manager with Supermetrics. Welcome, Anna. Anna: Hey, Kathleen, and thank you so much for having me on the show. It's such a pleasure to be here. Kathleen: Yeah. And I think you might actually qualify as my guest, one of the guests who is coming from the furthest away because you are in Finland right now. Correct? Anna: Correct. Yes, we are based in Helsinki, Finland. And yeah, so originally from Russia, and I moved to Finland and I've been living here for about seven years now. Kathleen: All right, and how -- just because the weather is changing here, so I'm currently kind of obsessed with weather -- how cold is it where you are? Anna: Basically, it's plus seven degrees Celsius. I'm sorry, I don't know what it's like in Fahrenheit. Kathleen: Cold, cold. I know that's cold. Anna: Kind of cold yeah. It usually drops to minus 20. So it's- Kathleen: Oh my gosh. I don't know how you do it, I would not survive in that climate. Well, it is getting colder here and the seasons are changing. But I'm so excited to have you on and to pick your brain because we're going to talk a little bit about analytics, which is something that's very near and dear to my heart. But it's one of those topics I think people talk a lot about, but they don't get very specific on and so I am actually really excited to get specific with you. Anna: Yes please. About Anna and Supermetrics Kathleen: So before we dive into this, though, can you just talk a little bit about, first of all, yourself and what you do and also what Supermetrics does? Anna: Yeah, sure. So I'm Anna Shutko and I've been working in Supermetrics for three years now. So I am one of the first employees of the company, I joined as employee number seven in 2016. And since then we've had a really, really rapid growth. So it's indeed an exciting journey. And I'm still continuing as you can imagine, the company is not the same as it was, not the same at all. Now we're hitting 70 like headcount. So it's been quite a wild ride. And I started as a marketing generalist, because as you can imagine, we're a team of seven, and everybody was doing everything, I was the second employee on the marketing team. And as the company grew I realized that product that's Supermetrics does is my passion and I want to devote more and more time to it. Now as we are hiring more people, I'm actually able to concentrate in product more and more as we go so I'm very excited about it. And in the future, I will be leading integrations marketing, which means, and I will explain everything how Supermetrics works and what integrations are in a minute, like integrations as their own stream as their own branch of marketing, so to say, so yeah, pretty excited about it. And like I mentioned, I fell in love with the product from day one. I remember how I was applying to Supermetrics, and I opened the website, and I saw this amazing product in the website was look really, really bad, but the idea was there. And yeah, since then, we changed the website and we added many more new and far more amazing products but I'm continuously in love with the company and products that we do so this is where my passion as a product marketing comes from. Kathleen: I have to just say, as a marketer, I have to laugh when I hear you say that you came in and you had a bad website because this -- I have experienced that in my career. And I never know whether to be excited or sad, because sad that you're coming in and the website stinks but excited that you get to come in and like change it and immediately show such big results of your marketing efforts. Like a website redesign is an awesome opportunity to just make a huge impact on a company's marketing so there's great opportunity there as a marketer, but it's also like "aargh." Anna: Yeah, I totally feel you on that we had a huge redesign project, but actually now the website really matches the company's identity of the company's products and shows how amazing they are. So I would prefer to see it as an opportunity. Kathleen: Yeah, you guys have a great website. So if you're listening and you have not checked out the Supermetrics site, definitely take a look at it. It's really well done and very cohesive from a visual branding standpoint. I've always liked your site. Anna: Thank you so much. Yeah, so a couple of words on what is Supermetrics and what do we actually do in this little red box. So, Supermetrics is a marketing automation tool and we started by developing a tool, which transfers data from different data sources, or as we call them "Integrations", those things, which transfer data from different APIs to different data destinations. So we transfer data from platforms like Google Ads, Google Analytics, Facebook ads, Twitter Ads, and now new ones for example Quora Ads, name it to spreadsheet tools and we started from transferring all this data to Excel then we move into G Suite. So next product was Supermetrics for Google Sheets aka transferring data from now it's 50 plus sources to Google Sheets. Then as Data Studio got rolled out, we partnered up with Google and we're actually the first ones to develop Connectors, which work entirely in Google Data Studios UI. So transferring all these different data to Google Data Studio. And now we enter the data warehousing space with our newest product Supermetrics for BigQuery and this is a completely new product game changer. So marketers can take advantage of BigQuery and store a lot of historical data there without necessarily learning how to code, really like hardcore, so everything is pretty intuitive. You can set transfers, and then visualize the data in big powerhouses that we're calling Tableau, Power BI for example. So that's the evolution of Supermetrics. In short, I love to describe it as a data pipeline, just easy to imagine, right, pipeline, we transfer data as if it's like water, for example, to all those different data destinations, and keep the work flowing. So previously, without Supermetrics marketers had to copy, paste, or download CSVs. So imagine, if you need a report for your client tomorrow, you have to go to every single platform like Facebook ads, Google Ads like I mentioned, ecetera, copy, paste, or then download all those different CSVs and compile them into one file. Edit every single data type and make sense out of the data and it was nightmare. I cannot even imagine how people did it without Supermetrics before. So we basically automate the whole thing so there is a really smooth sidebar or engage Google Data Studio there is this selection tool where you can very easily connect to all the sources you need. And you can select, which data do I want. For example, I want clicks from yesterday's clicked by campaigning for example, I want Facebook ads campaigns. And boom, this data just appears in your spreadsheet. It's really easy. I think it's the easiest if you watch the video, and I will add all the links to the video. So then people can pause the podcast, follow along or check our site out if they want to. So yeah, you will just really see how easy it is to create a marketing report and our motto, so our idea is to make marketers' life better and easier so they can focus on what actually matters like talking to the client, analyzing this data, spotting trends, sharing this report with their colleagues. If it's a collaborative tool, like Data Studio, it's super easy to do. And because we're a data pipeline, it gives us this flexibility. So we don't really have a fixed data destination where we transfer everything. People already know how to use Excel, so they can just transfer their data there and just go ahead and continue their work. So that's who we are. How marketers are taking on big data Kathleen: I love that. This whole topic is so interesting to me, and I was just having this conversation with somebody the other day, because my company is also in the data space, but we just happened to be in cyber security but there's a similar problem with marketing and with cyber security, namely that, there's all this sort of excitement around the availability of big data. And data is wonderful but what winds up happening I think, a lot of the time is there's a lot of noise and not a lot of signal. And meaning there's a ton of data, but you don't necessarily need to look at all data, right? You need to get to the data that matters the most. And the most important thing isn't the data itself it's the insights you source from it. And so, I would love to just kind of get your thoughts on especially for marketers. Do you see marketers successfully dealing with that challenge right now and how do they do that? It is such a big, hairy kind of area of I could be measuring all the things and tracking all the things. I guess this is like 10 questions in one I want to ask you so many things, like what are the most important metrics? How are marketers winnowing it down to what matters the most? Like, you guys work with a lot of companies, how many exactly is it? Anna: So yeah, indeed we do and I think I already previously mentioned to you, so it's 400k, 400,000 people who've tried or are using Supermetrics across all the different products, so huge numbers. Kathleen: That's interesting, it must give you some pretty fascinating insight into what information marketers are tracking and what they're looking at and what sources they're drawing data from. So let's start out actually by a lot of the people who are listening to this podcast, a lot of them tend to be practicing marketers and they're senior enough that they deal with strategy, but they're also kind of deep in the weeds with some tactical execution. And if somebody is listening and thinking I need to set up a reporting framework and I need to decide what are the most important KPIs to track? Can you share a little bit of, through what you see in the platform, like, what are those top KPIs that you tend to see marketers looking at? Anna: Yeah, so of course every single marketing reporting framework is unique and it depends on the company, there is no right or wrong, there is no one framework or one approach I could share and then everybody would apply it and then I would be in a very happy place. I wish that would be possible. But it's an art, it's science and everybody has to use their own judgment. Of course, I can pinpoint some things for example, nowadays you're completely right -- marketing is becoming more and more and more data driven. And marketing is actually becoming more and more technical. So there was this one chart I love referring to which is called the MarTech 5000. Not sure if you've heard of it. And it just shows on a larger scale, how the MarTech space has transformed over the years. So in 2011, there were something about, if I remember correctly, 150 solutions. And right now there are over 7,000 solutions. So imagine all those platforms and every single marketer is using maybe in their own platform, or some unique custom setups in the same HubSpot or Salesforce in the same platform everybody's using. So like I mentioned, is becoming more data driven, it's becoming more unique and is becoming increasingly complex. And what I see is that the profession is changing so we're not just more curious anymore, we have to be marketing technologists to successfully implement all those strategies. So knowing the platform and knowing at which stages of your funnel, you should use a particular platform, maybe it's a new platform, like Quora Ads for example. And it's an entirely new set of metrics because the nature of platform is different. You also have to take that into consideration. So basically to sum it up, knowing your business, knowing the platform, knowing at which stage of the funnel you want to use this platform, and knowing -- and this is where Supermetrics comes into play very nicely -- how we can use data from all those platforms together to create a comprehensive narrative from your data. Say you want to use, for example, Search Ads as top of the funnel, this is what we see commonly happening, people using Search Ads, maybe display ads to attract attention so they will be metrics like impressions, to impact your further questions like impressions clicks, in a way micro conversions or conversions as in their positioning to the website or going into down the funnel. Then in the bottom of the funnel, people are already more familiar with the company. So there can be many different other platforms coming into play that continue handling data so they can go on the website track. So then there is Google Analytics. They continue with another platform. Quora Ads again is a very good example because there you can have different targeting levels and you can target different questions now that people have already got their food for thought about your company. And in the end, you can, again, hammer them with more maybe brand-related content now that they're already familiar with your brand and then lead them gradually to closure. And again, this is where understanding of the product comes in handy. I will give our own Supermetrics example. So we have Supermetrics templates, basically, those are free to use files, which people can use and they work with our Connectors. So it works like this, you get this file, you click three buttons, and it all happens in Data Studio UI or, for example, Google Sheets UI and this is gets populated with your data as you use Supermetrics Connectors. But the trick is that you have to use Supermetrics Connectors to automate this dashboard. Of course, you can put your own numbers and the formulas would work, there is no problem with that you can also use it manually. But the beauty of those templates is to use them in an automated manner. So by knowing that those templates, activate trials, again, if we talking about SaaS, you know that in the bottom of your funnel, you can put this specific lead magnet, like in our case, this is the Landscape, there can be some our tool and then usually tracking through Custom Code or through Google Analytics, how those things convert and then afterwards I think that at this point, people start using more and more complicated platforms to track this post-purchase journey to accurately predict what kind of people convert? How do those people behave? And are there any like rookie purchases? So this is, again, where HubSpot comes in very handy. The platform has expanded a lot. Or Salesforce, then you can connect this data from Salesforce to top of the funnel, or middle of the funnel content data and then see how people who click on your ads and search literally through the whole journey have converted and what kind of people are there and based on that data, then you craft an improved marketing journey. Now that was a really long explanation but yeah, just hope to get the general idea out there so that you should know the business you're in. You should know the tool, you should know how to use those tools together, how to use this data together. And yeah, just focus on metrics like ROI that's my personal belief because marketing cannot function separately or completely separately from overall business, it has to bring results, it has to bring insights. So I think revenue is a very solid indicator of whether something working or not working, and in our case, this will be ROIs. Marketing tool sprawl Kathleen: Yeah, that makes sense and you touched upon something I wanted to ask further about, which is you have to know your platforms and I think you said you need to be a technologist these days, which I think is really so accurate. There are so many different platforms and you can't just be a strategist anymore you have to know how to get in and make these software tools sing for you, because that's where a lot of the value gets unlocked. Do you have a sense? Well, let me back up how many different data sources or platforms does Supermetrics integrate with right now? Anna: It depends on the data destination. So for example, for BigQuery, it's far more complex to add a data source, so we have less of them there. But I would say that more than 50 if we don't count those in detail, or like early access, fully integrated, fully developed platforms, there are around 50 and I have to say that our engineers did a great job because not only do we provide the basic of I call them the basic metrics for some platforms like HubSpot, for example, or Adobe analytics, we also provide the Custom metrics. So if people have created their own metrics, they are also able to fish them out with our tool and like visualize them. Kathleen: So there's about 50 different fully integrated platforms and plenty more kind of in development. Do you have any sense from the way that you all have seen customers using Supermetrics of, on average, how many different sources the typical marketer is pulling in? I'm just curious. Anna: Yeah, of course, I will give you a very, very rough number because there is no generalization to be made. Some people prefer to use one platform very heavily others prefer to use a bundle. But I would say that around maybe like five would be something like an accurate number. Kathleen: Yeah, it's so interesting, because just from my own experience even in small organizations, like, my company is small and in early stage, hopefully will be very big in a year. But, we still, I feel like we have a lot of different platforms. We have marketing automation, we have our website, we have Google Analytics, we have our CRM, like our video marketing platform, our SEO add-ons, there's just so much and pulling it all together is a little bit of a nightmare. And I imagine without a tool like this is super time consuming, and I think that that's probably one of the biggest pain points marketers have, is the amount of time they spend on reporting. Like you said, you work with a lot of different companies I know you and I talked and you have some examples of companies that have used the platform and some stories about how it's helped them save time. Can you maybe share some of that with us? Supermetrics customer stories Anna: Yeah, definitely, and I love sharing those stories because the clients are amazing and some of them have been with us through like absolutely everything. So they started using Grabber, which is now our legacy product so the tool pulls data into Excel. And now they want to try or are already trying Supermetrics for BigQuery you can imagine some of them have used all five of our products, so definitely an evolution there. But coming back to your question one of my favorite client success stories is Sleeping Giant Media. These guys- Kathleen: It's a great name, side note, I just like the company name. Anna: Yeah, they're great and the people they're amazing. So the team is based in Britain, and they've been using Supermetrics like I mentioned for a while. They started with Supermetrics for Google Sheets and now they're looking into Supermetrics for BigQuery. So Sam, big shout out to Sam is our one big Supermetrics fan and he even talked about us at Brighton SEO, which was just amazing we never asked him to but he just went out there and spoke about us. It was really heartwarming. So he told a story that they used to spend around three to four days just on marketing reporting, aka copy, pasting numbers, collecting- Kathleen: Three to four days a month, right? Anna: Three to four days a week. Kathleen: Ah, oh my goodness. Anna: Imagine well, I guess they were not doing it exactly like every week, but maybe like every other week let's say. They are a fully functioning marketing agency providing a wide range of services. So he would get in Monday morning and start collecting data and then they're emailing all the cc's. By Wednesday evening, he would finish all reporting for one maybe two clients, depending on the scope of the project, of course. And then he had Thursday and Friday. So Thursday the client meeting to discuss how campaigns are going, whether there is some adjustments have to be made, et cetera, et cetera. And then it would just leave basically Friday and well, if he's not doing reporting next week, then the next week to implement all the changes. Which to me sounds crazy, because this is something you should not be spending that much time on. This is not a very highly intellectual job like copy, pasting numbers feels so basic -  people doing this and he's started using Supermetrics so he's time basically time he spent on reporting cut down to something like an hour or maybe like an hour and a half and if he needed to do a reporting for absolutely all the clients in the agency that would be in one day. Kathleen: So what does he do with all his newfound free time? Anna: Great question. So he's already talking, well, obviously you started sharing those results with the clients. So he started talking to the clients more and this I think even further reinforces the idea that we help inbound marketers because then we encourage with this free time you can have more human connection. You can ask more relevant questions, you have more time to even think or like process the client's needs. And, in addition to this, he was able to make more relevant analysis now that he had more time. So he could actually process the numbers in his head and think, "Aha, what would our next steps be?" And then react accordingly? So we usually have two types of reports people are doing with Supermetrics. So one type of reporting is this for example, monthly reports where people pull together numbers from all those different sources to assess their monthly progress to see what kind of plans do they have to make for the next month, and then so on and so forth. And the second type of reporting that we commonly see is the ad hoc reporting. So say, okay, this campaign, this bid is acting wild I did not know what happened. Some numbers are going down they're not normal compared to the benchmark or this is someone unusual behavior. Let me just quickly pull out a few numbers and compare them and figure out what's the root cause? Is it something seasonal or is some competitor in the picture, like to understand what's happening. And I really loved one comment, this is from a different client the agency is also based in the UK, they said that it's much, much faster and much easier to pull those numbers with Supermetrics rather than going through the whole Facebook ads UI trying to dig into campaigns and figure out what exactly went wrong. So there you go. So you can also do this ad hoc kind of very quick analysis to see whether some immediate action has to take it and I think this makes you very, very proactive versus being a reactive reporter. You look at the numbers, it's like, "Oh, my God." The moment is gone, things have already happened. But this way, you can very quickly act upon those changes and as a result make your clients happy and avoid some potential setbacks. If you for example, have Black Friday and say something's going wrong then you don't have much time to react. You're losing money basically. So yeah, it really is- Kathleen: Do you have any sense for how often, because Supermetrics really gives a continuous flow of data, correct? Anna: Yeah. How often are marketers reviewing data? Kathleen: And so you could theoretically be checking it all the time. But do you have a sense for how often at least in best practice cases, marketers are looking at that data? Anna: Yeah, so they can set triggers that would refresh data automatically. So I would say that people do so that they set up a reporting dashboard, then they set it up to refresh, so that the data is there for the next day, usually. Of course, they can do like hourly refresh again, if it's a fast pacing, budget campaign, but usually they you do this, I come in to the office, I see fresh data in my dashboard. So every morning, we can do a quick catch up with my colleagues, look at this internal report and see how all of our different clients are doing. If it's an agency, if it's an internal team, then just see how campaigns are performing and then see what we're doing during the day. So that's the usual, I would say, very typical scenario, or according to my experience. Kathleen: And then it seems like, for reporting, like if you're somebody like me, who has to put together a report once a month for your board of directors, you could just really kind of screenshot and paste the graphs into a PowerPoint or something along those lines if you wanted to, or you could distill the data in some other way for like a monthly report. Anna: Yeah, definitely, you can do this. What I would do personally, if I was the one doing this, I would use Google Data Studio because this way you don't have to copy paste anything and you can share this file with really nice dashboards they've updated their design and they're rolling out as far as I know, more comprehensive and even better looking design soon. So you can just connect all the sources put all the numbers and like I mentioned also provide those templates so you can get some inspiration from there. Our designers also do a very nice job creating those lovely designs. For example, we have some Supermetrics for HubSpot templates there in our gallery and I will also give the link to all the materials and the gallery so people can check them out or if they listen to the episodes and try everything themselves. Check out the Supermetrics reporting template gallery But yeah, I would do something like this. And then at the same time, you would not need to refresh the data because the data will be refreshed automatically there. And the board of directors can see new numbers and in addition, you can also connect your custom data source, aka if you have revenue numbers in a database, many companies do have those. So especially if it's a board of directors, they would be very interested in the impact marketing has made on their revenue and other business metrics. So you can pull this data from the database and you can show it side by side with the marketing spend, for example, to give them an even bigger picture. The biggest mistakes marketers are making with data Kathleen: That's great. So any thoughts on, you know, what you see the marketers doing as far as the biggest mistakes they're making with tracking data reporting on it, et cetera? Anna: That's an interesting one. I actually have never thought about this. Mistakes. Well, maybe one thing that comes to my mind is maybe like focusing too much on the vanity metrics as I call them, aka like a lot of clicks or like impressions or worse like it's a impressions. Metrics that give you ... I would say these are maybe like unrelated metrics in a way that they're not very directly related to the business metrics, because for example, in some cases, sales cycle can be quite long. So you cannot accurately assess how much the campaign will generate in the future just simply because people have to go through multiple steps and multiple touch points to even get to the discussion about purchasing your product or tool or license. And so yeah, focusing too much on impressions, focusing too much on metrics then, like I said, not maybe necessarily related. This comes back to the product. You should know your sales cycle and I would suggest breaking it down into different steps and basically monitoring and benchmarking each step and see the conversion rates. I don't exactly remember, a gentleman did an episode with you and he suggested a very good framework for this. There was even Excel spreadsheet. So this is maybe something we could also pulling back to this episode in the comments. Kathleen: I'll have to figure out which one that was. Anna: Yeah, unfortunately, I don't remember. Kathleen: We'll figure it out. Anna: We'll figure it out. Check out the episode Anna references here Kathleen: I know we can do it and we'll put the link in the show notes. Yeah, I know that I've had so many great guests it's interesting who've contributed so many great ideas that oftentimes I was thinking and in fact as I listened to you talk, that I need to go back and listen to some of my earlier episodes, because now I'm on I think I just published Episode Number 117 when we're talking about this, and there's so many earlier ones that are still great in terms of the information they deliver. Who is Supermetrics right for? Kathleen: I imagine that this type of reporting isn't right for everybody because some marketers might have much simpler platforms or maybe not. Maybe it is for everyone can you talk through who do you generally see using a solution like this? Anna: So our most common user personas, so to say, are marketing agencies, so somebody who is doing marketing reporting consecutively and then they have to do it almost every day or at least monthly to put together those good looking reports for their clients. But of course, those marketing agencies can be of different size. There can be a five person as we are now seeing with required there can be a five person very tech savvy small team, which focus on marketing technology and purely some maybe hardcore analytics with the elements of normal distribution and some predictive analytics even or they can be a very big marketing agency like TBWA who want to work client success stories. So yeah, agencies are very typical for us. Then we have internal teams so basically marketing departments, which want to monitor their own campaign, how they're progressing. Then even if they don't have a client, like you just mentioned, reporting to their board of directors and showing what impact marketing has made on their sales et cetera. And also, we've added HubSpot Connector, which is not only marketing, but it's also CRM. So then they connect their marketing data together with the CRM data to give more background information and make a 360 degree analysis. So these are very, very diverse I have to say. Kathleen: Great. So really it sounds like anybody, regardless of size, who has a strong focus on data, tracking data, analyzing data and reporting on data? Anna: Yeah, I would say so. Well maybe there is some categorization, I would say that smaller teams tend to use Google Sheets and Excel aka Spreadsheet tools. If the team is very tech savvy, or they have a lot of historical data, then I would straightaway advise them to use Google BigQuery because they would immediately otherwise hit that cell limit and the reports will be bulky, the reports will be slow. This is just not the right data destination, if you want to store terabytes and even more like 2, 3, 4 years of historical data to see different trends. So to summarize, bigger marketing agencies who have many clients, many big clients like big brands want to own their data because imagine those big brands spend a lot of dollars collecting this data, cleaning this data up. And they want a place where they can successfully store the older data so they can store data in BigQuery as their database and then they can instantly connect data from their Facebook ads, et cetera, to BigQuery through Supermetrics, and then visualize it, for example, in Tableau or Power BI to get the full picture of their marketing reporting. And yeah, smaller teams tend to use Data Studio, Google Sheets, which are completely free tools, so they are not paying per usage for them. So for them that would be cheaper and therefore more suitable option. How to learn more about marketing analytics Kathleen: Okay. Now I'm going to spring a question on you that I didn't tell you I was going to ask you and you may not have the answer because this is totally off the cuff. But as you spoke about this, you talked about, like, when you start to do more, you should move over to BigQuery. And I imagine for some marketers that could seem kind of intimidating, especially if they don't come from a highly analytical background. So are there certain places that you know of, or can recommend if somebody's listening, and they're thinking, "Oh, my God, that sounds really complicated." I need to get up to speed and learn more about analytics and how to use something like BigQuery. Is there somewhere online they can go to learn and become better at analytics? Anna: Yes, and I actually do have to say that we're working on this. We're very well aware of this worry that people have that, oh, I've been using maybe more simple UIs for my whole life. And now there was this whole like jobs and transfers and the whole different environment, which is coming with this BigQuery. So first of all, I do have to say that we're working on creating a bunch of materials for BigQuery specifically that will show how can use Supermetrics products if you're a marketer like videos, where do you click? How do you create different kind of transfers? How to use different kind of joins? So this is something that we're really hoping to provide and also we do have natively build Data Studio Connectors so after a marketer has gathered all the data in BigQuery, they can use our connector to visualize their data in just a few clicks. And, again, as we publish a video you'll see it's very, very simple and what I really love about BigQuery, although it does sound intimidating, but Google does provide learning resources for that as well. And if you look at the UI, you will notice that it's very, very intuitive. So to say, well at first it's maybe a little bit challenging, but once you get a hang of it, it's actually pretty nice, it's quite clear. From our side, we also provide this monitoring suite where you can see how your transfers are performing. Is your data flowing all in nicely? Is there something to worry about or not? Usually all our transfers are fine. So people have mentioned and you can also see from the client success stories that data flowing in nicely and we haven't experienced that much challenges with Supermetrics for BigQuery. But yeah, more resources coming up. Google does provide their own resources and I think it's important for marketers to at least look into this if it's relevant for them, because this is the general trend. This is where the world is going and you want to be ahead. You definitely want to at least understand what kind of technologies are there. I really liked the quote one of our clients have mentioned. So they said, "It feels like Google BigQuery compared with other providers is built with agencies and with marketers in mind." So that sounds reassuring to me at least that people do say that it's actually feels like it's built for marketers. So I would say, yeah, wait for ours resources and then go and explore on your own and try not to be intimidated by this very techie sounding word. Kathleen's two questions Kathleen: Yeah it can be a lot to think about. But that's great that you guys are working on creating some resources. All right, we can talk about data forever but I have two questions I always ask all of my guests at the end of my interviews, and I would love to get your answers. The first one is, we talked about how the focus on this podcast is about inbound marketing. Who can you think of that whether it's a company or an individual who's just doing inbound marketing really well right now? Anna: Yeah, I will say quite a common answer and I'm pretty sure other guests have already mentioned this company. I think Drift is doing a fantastic job when it comes to inbound marketing, so they have not only created their own category, but when they interact with the people, with their clients, it feels very, very human, which I think they got this trend. This is something many of us need as marketing is becoming more and more techie. We need this kind of catalyst, we need this human connection to feel welcomed. And like I mentioned, they're doing a fantastic job there and one very good example is this one scale playbook, those 41 or 42 plays. As you read through this playbook, you can literally see that the company's trying show their best and make people feel welcomed and warm if they're using their product. Kathleen: Now, that's great. A lot of people have mentioned them, but that's because they're doing great things. Anna: Exactly. Kathleen: Second question is where do you personally go to learn and keep up so that you are able to stay abreast of the cutting edge developments in marketing? Anna: Yeah, so I prefer not to have a one stop shop. So depending on the topic I want to learn more about I go to a variety of different resources. So if I want to learn something more general about what's going on in the world of SaaS marketing, I listen to the SaaStr Podcast. Another amazing podcast I can recommend is the Growth Hub Podcast, and my colleague Edward is a proud host of this podcast. I really love his interviewing style and the guests, which have been on this podcast are simply amazing. So go check it out the Growth Hub Podcast, by Advanced B2B. A couple of other things. So of course I go to MarTech Today and SEJ if I want to learn about news and recent updates, and for us it's especially relevant, because we need to keep up what's going on with all the data source companies. Julian Shapiro, I'm not exactly sure if I'm pronouncing his name correctly, has a couple of fantastic guides on how to write a great copy, how to build a really nice landing page, how to A/B test. So one really good resource there as well and yeah. How to connect with Anna Kathleen: There's a couple new ones there that I haven't heard about. So we'll definitely check those out and put the links in the show notes. If someone wants to reach out to you, if they have a question about what you've talked about, or they want to learn more about Supermetrics, what is the best way for them to connect with you? Anna: Yeah, so definitely the best way is to reach out to me directly, maybe not through the company Twitter, but I'm @superpoweranna on Twitter. Kathleen: That's such a great handle. Anna: I love it as well. It's like Supermetrics plus me. So yeah, @superpoweranna on Twitter, and yeah, just hit me up with anything. And I also am very actively checking LinkedIn messages so Anna Shutko on LinkedIn, please don't hesitate to connect and I'm very happy to have discussions, answer the questions about anything there. So yeah, LinkedIn and Twitter, I would say, are the two go places. You know what to do next... Kathleen: Great. Well, I will put links to all of your various social accounts in the show notes so people can reach out to you and thank you so much for joining me. This was really fun just to talk about analytics and to geek out for a little bit. If you are listening and you liked what you heard or you learned something new as always, I would love it if you would leave the podcast a five star review on Apple Podcasts. That is how people find us and hear about us. And of course if you know someone else who's doing kick ass in non-marketing work, tweet me @WorkMommyWork and I would love to make them my next interview. Thanks, Anna. Anna: Thank you so much Kathleen. Kathleen: So fun.

In this episode I meet Timo Boldt, founder and CEO of recipe box service, Gousto. We discuss ethics, personal data and the importance of managing yourself before you manage others. Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles on artificial intelligence and improving sustainability.  Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Want to read the Timo Boldt's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Timo Boldt, founder and CEO of recipe box service, Gousto. He launched the firm in 2012 and it has been growing exponentially year on year. Earlier this year they raised £18 million collectively from health influencer Joe Wicks, Unilever Ventures, Hargreave Hale, BGF Ventures, MMC Ventures and Angel CoFund. In July, they raised a further £30 million to develop their artificial intelligence technology, bringing total raised to £100 million.   Boldt is also on the digital advisory board for Unilever. Anna: Hello, Timo. Timo: Nice to meet you. Anna: Yeah, and you. How are you doing? Timo: Very good, excellent. Anna: Great. Timo: What would you like to talk about? First, I’d like to talk a little bit about the artificial intelligence side. I understand it is a substantial part of the business. There’s also a real emphasis on tech, so much so that you have a separate Twitter account for @GoustoTech. I was wondering – do you see yourself as a tech company as much as a recipe box service? Timo: We see ourselves as a data company that happens to trade in food. We have always been on this huge, huge mission to be the most loved way to eat dinner and we can only really do that by harnessing the power of technology, transforming the way that UK families eat, plan, shop. So, technology is kind of the enabler. AI for the past six, seven years has played a crucial role. And the idea is that when you open the app, you should see a completely personalised menu. I should see a different menu. We should only see what we really love to eat. I think that’s the power of AI integrated into the app and that’s providing real differentiation.      From a personal data perspective, how are the pages personalised? What data tends to be taken to personalise these pages? Timo: The section is literally called ‘Just for You’. You open the menu and it has a selection of recipes on it that only you should see, no one else should see. You can still browse the entire catalogue of the menu, but you don’t have to. What we do is pretty simple – we look through your history, we look at what you ordered before and we try to make a recommendation. We also try to look at similar customers, so pattern recognition and then trying to predict what else they might want and then offering that to you. And those algorithms are the exact two types of algorithm Netflix is using. How did you find the transition when GDPR came in? Timo: Look, I mean, I think GDPR has caused a lot of increase in process. Directionally, I think it’s quite good for the customer. We definitely had to up our game in terms of process and understanding the legislation. I don’t think that it’s has impacted, at all, our ability to surface better menus and better value for the customer. We welcome it, it’s fine. I’d like to move on to Dragon’s Den. You appeared on the programme in 2013, but unfortunately you were turned down by the Dragons. You were contacted by an investor shortly afterwards offering you a substantial sum. How did that fit into the expectations you had from the programme when you signed up to go on? Timo: Yeah – as a young entrepreneur, I think you have to try absolutely everything to get attention and raise money. I hand-delivered 100+ boxes to journalists. One of the opportunities that emerged was Dragon’s Den. I had an enormously fun time going onto the show. I actually got two offers on the show – one they didn’t show and the other one we rejected. Duncan Bannatyne became a customer after the show which is almost better than getting money. And as you said we had a great offer from a group of angel investors. They’re amazing people – they’ve all spent their lives in the food industry. They added not only capital but lots of knowledge, helping us in the early days to set up the supply chain. You know, talking to farmers, making sure we source the best quality food. I think it was a big catalyst for us. We didn’t take the Dragons’ money, but it was an amazing opportunity and we had lots of fun.    Ethics play a big part in the business. It’d be interesting to know how you maintain those ethics throughout the supply chain. Timo: We’ve always been on this mission to make the planet better off with every single meal we sell. In the early days, when I launched Gousto, I really wanted to find a way of taking the 40pc of food that’s wasted our system out of the equation, both in the supply chain and at customer level. By setting up Gousto we’ve really managed to take out food waste and that’s been a phenomenal part since day one. And it makes great business sense because you don’t waste food. We are also extremely focused on plastic, on packaging. This year alone, we’re pledging to reduce plastic by 50pc and the team is on track. We’ve always had this massive ethos, or sustainability focus. Now that we’re larger, we employ people who really go deep into the supply chain to understand farmers’ credentials, animal welfare and so on. It’s very close to my heart. I’m interested in finding out more about the food waste side. If you’ve got a certain demand for one of the meals on the menu. If you had leftovers – say you have potatoes, for example – you have a certain demand and have some left over, what happens to that? Timo: What the clever guys are doing is that they are literally helping to come up with menus that reduce food waste to zero. One, there’s a huge focus on food forecasting, making sure we only buy what we really need. But then secondly, we can really play with the menu, so that we can make sure that we only use the food all the time when it’s fresh and tasting the best. You talked a little bit about sustainability before – and it makes up a large part of the brand’s image. As we’ve mentioned before, you’ve got Unilever as an investor and you’re also a member of the digital advisory board. Unilever hasn’t always had the best reputation when it comes to sustainability. For example, it was named one of the most prominent plastic polluters in the Philippines [research from Global Alliance for Incinerator Alternatives] earlier this year. When you were presented with the opportunity to partner with them, both on an investment level and on their board, what was going through your mind? Did you worry that it might affect Gousto’s company image? Timo: Almost no FMCG (Fast-Moving Consumer Goods) company in the world has done as much as Unilever has done for sustainability. They are so driven by the topic of sustainability. Paul Polman, the former CEO, is leading the agenda and the charge globally. I really admire what they’ve done. Are they perfect? No. Do I work for them? No. Do they ask me what they should do about sustainability? No. I think they are a force for good. They’re not perfect. I think when I joined the Digital Advisory Board, I saw an opportunity to impact and influence and raise the agenda even further. But I’m not working for them in any way – I’m an advisor, I’m unpaid and I think we have to work with large business to really drive change. It’s amazing if Gousto can change the world. But ultimately, we need Tesco, Amazon, Sainsbury’s and Unilever to have impact at scale.   Tell me more about your role on the Digital Advisory Board. What kind of things do you do in that role? Timo: It’s an amazing board, they’ve got super-experienced CEOs from large companies. Unilever is spending £10bn on marketing per year and the big challenge is yesterday they got beaten up by Tesco, tomorrow they probably get beaten up by Amazon and Ali Baba. Everything is moving online. And it gets even harder for them – their brands are getting cannibalised, competition is on price all of a sudden, the Chinese market is growing rapidly. It’s all e-commerce, it’s no longer in the shop. I’m in a very humble capacity trying the educate the board around direct-to-consumer capabilities, our sustainability mission, that 100pc of Gousto’s revenues are online, how you build data science into your business model, how you hire tech people at scale. I’m playing the tech advisory role, wearing my start-up hat.    In the past you’ve talked about the importance of growing yourself as a CEO within your business. What do you mean by that? Timo: I’m a massive believer in the power of learning and being curious. I’ve done an Executive MBA, so at weekends I’d go to Cambridge to upskill myself. I’m becoming a certified coach right now, so I’m on a one-year coaching diploma course in the evenings and on the weekend. I also joined other scale-up wards, so I massively believe in this philosophy that everyone should aspire to be the best version of themselves. For me, the question is: how can I be the best CEO possible? Seven years ago, I didn’t manage anyone, today we manage 500 people. Tomorrow, we’ll manage 1,200 people. I need to constantly upskill myself, leading by example, then role-modelling to the organisation that you’ve got to invest in yourself and you’ve got to take time off to think about your own development. I think that’s super important as the work is changing so fast. Plus it’s a lot of fun.     I think it’s hard for business owners, particularly small business owners, to really take the time for themselves. How would you suggest alleviating the guilt that they feel a lot of the time and leaving some of the work to the people that they’ve employed? Timo:  Yeah, I totally think that’s true. Lots of people feel like they have no time. I mean ultimately, if you want to be brutal, busyness is some form of laziness. We’re all way too busy, but as a leader you have to get yourself out of the minutiae and the day-to-day. I think you’ve got an enormous responsibility to lead by example and help people understand how important self-development is – reflection, reflection practice – so I think it matters, but it is really hard. Once a quarter, I try going off-site to only focus on my own development. And I probably spend 50pc answering my phone and another 20pc responding to emails so I’m not perfect. I’m trying really hard, but it is challenging. If you have the right people in the business and you surround yourself with amazing people, people are the key to success. The more incredible talent you have, the more structure you have, the more you can afford to get out. If you feel guilty you might not have the right people. You can’t be controlling. In my head it’s not about accountability, it’s about ownership. It’s about giving people autonomy and then cheerleading them. Your job as leader is to set the North Star and then to galvanise people – buy them cake, celebrate, collab. Do whatever you can to make them feel good, celebrating every step towards success. If they fail, build them up again. Focus them on the richness of learning from failure. But it’s not about the day to day and controlling every step. The food industry as a whole is facing quite a few problems – not problems, more challenges – as we go into the future. Particularly with sourcing enough food, changing temperatures, all sorts of things. What kind of challenges do you see in the food industry and what advice do you have for an entrepreneur looking to start a business in the food industry? Timo: The bigger the problem, the bigger the opportunity for entrepreneurs. I think grocery is a wonderful market for entrepreneurs to enter and to do good. If you look at the grocery market, you’ve got huge supermarkets that for the last 50 years have built a supply chain of 10,000 stores which after 50 years is no longer fit for purpose. Everyone wants to order food online, people pay a premium for convenience, sustainability and health are so important. I think there’s a big opportunity around how we sell to customers, how we fit into their life. I also believe that there are lots of issues on the supplying side, for example urban farming. In perfect conditions, you can grow organic salads and organic tomatoes using a fraction of the water that traditional farming uses, with none of the nasty chemicals. None of this is mainstream today, but in the next ten, 20 years, it’ll become mainstream and all of us will eat through those new ways of growing food and to me that’s hugely exciting. Anna: The rise of hydroponics, growing food underground, things like that? Timo: Totally, yup. But it’s in an embryonic stage right now. Well, that’s it from me. Is there anything else you’d like to add? Timo: The one piece of advice I’d give to anyone starting a business is to really focus on managing yourself before you manage other people. I think that’s one of my biggest learnings in building Gousto. Having deep recognition of your own strengths and weaknesses, knowing how to handle your demons, solving your weaknesses, turning weaknesses into sources of energy and strength. You need to understand the ups and downs of the emotional rollercoaster of entrepreneurship. I think that learning this and building up the self-awareness and appreciation then allows you to have the energy to talk to other people and build them up when they’re down and to lead other people. But that to me is one of the biggest lessons I’ve learned.   To help our listeners, what would you say is your greatest strength and weakness? How did you go about realising that and managing it? Timo: My strengths are that I like people and I’m a people person. I’d say that I’m 99pc extroverted. I have huge levels of energy – I never run out of energy. From a weakness point, I’d say that I don’t pay much attention to process and how we get there. I’m more focused on the idea and empowering the right people and I think that can alienate certain people sometimes because they might be more interested than I am in the exact process of how we get there. Whereas I feel like if we’ve got the right people, I should cheerlead them and they figure it out. So over time, if you look at our team that’s surrounding me, they all pretty much play to my strengths, they offset some of my weaknesses, they are amazing at process and structure which I’m not the best at. I think that if you’ve built a system that plays to your strengths, you’re absolutely fine to apologise for your weaknesses every once in a while. Anna: That’s really good advice. Well, thank you for that Timo and thank you for coming on the podcast. Timo: Thanks so much and that was super fun. Thank you.      Anna: You can find out more about Gousto at gousto.co.uk. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more information on artificial intelligence and improving sustainability. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.   

If you work in the healthcare industry you have a huge responsibility when it comes to managing sensitive patient information, whether you're a big software vendor or a single physiotherapist, everyone needs to follow the same rules, and there are some pretty serious consequences for not doing it properly.  Do you know what your obligations are and if you're doing a good job? Check this episode out to find out!   Who is Anna Johnston Anna Johnston is one of Australia's most respected experts in privacy law and practice. She has qualifications in law, public policy and management, and 26 years' experience in legal, policy and research roles.  Anna has a breadth of perspectives and a wealth of experience to dealing with privacy and data governance issues. She is the former Deputy Privacy Commissioner for NSW, so she knows the regulator's perspective and since 2004 is the Director for consulting firm “Salinger Privacy”. Anna has been called upon to provide expert testimony before various Parliamentary inquiries and the Productivity Commission, spoken at numerous conferences, and is regularly asked to comment on privacy issues in the media.   Anna holds a first class honours degree in Law, a Masters of Public Policy with honours, a Graduate Certificate in Management, a Graduate Diploma of Legal Practice, and a Bachelor of Arts, plus a number of other relevant and well regarded certificates and industry associations.  In this Episode you'll learn 2:08 - About Salinger Privacy 4:55 - Privacy Concerns in Data (with a focus on health tech) 8:15 - All about, privacy reviews, data flows, data governance, and privacy design 14:28 -AI - How does it fit ethically, legally and is policy keeping up with innovation  16:40 - AI - GDPR, challenges for AI with diagnostic decisions   20:10 - AI - Transparency, Accountability and Consent 26:00 - Legal Obligations with Data Privacy Key TakeAways When it comes to privacy law in Australia, the same laws and consequences apply to everyone dealing with healthcare information - whether they are a big institution of a single doctor. While Data Privacy breaches do happen they are often the result of lack of education and or the best intentions in mind, not so much because of malicious intent Often AI is trained on data that was collected not for the intention of training the machine, so the concept of informed consent is a tricky one  The simple “tick this box to agree” actually isn't enough and more emphasis needs to be put on clearly communicating clearly with the person who's data is being collected The expectations of patients data privacy holds the health and medical industries to the highest levels of scrutiny meaning that breaches are to be reported to the Price  Commissioners office and the patients whose privacy has been breached   Links Anna Johnston Twitter - @SalingerPrivacy  Anna Johnston LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/anna-johnston-ba188410a/ Notifiable Data Breaches Scheme - https://www.oaic.gov.au/ndb  GDPR - https://www.oaic.gov.au/privacy/guidance-and-advice/australian-entities-and-the-eu-general-data-protection-regulation/  MSIA - https://msia.com.au/  Salinger Privacy - https://www.salingerprivacy.com.au/  My Health Record (Formerly PCEHR) - https://www.myhealthrecord.gov.au/  NDIS - https://www.ndis.gov.au/  National Health and Medical Research Council - https://www.nhmrc.gov.au/    Transcript [00:00:00] Pete: With me today is Anna Johnson. Anna is one of Australia's most respected experts in Privacy Law and practice. She has qualifications in law, public policy and management and 26 years experience in legal policy and research roles. Anna has a breadth of perspectives and a wealth of experience in dealing with privacy and data governance issues. She's the former deputy privacy commissioner for New South Wales.So she really knows regulatory perspective well, and since 2004 is the director for consulting firm Salinger Privacy Anna holds a first-class honours degree in law, a masters of public policy and honors a graduate certificate in management a graduate diploma of legal practice Anna Bachelor of Arts plus a number of other relevant and well-regarded certificates and Industry associations, Anna no longer practices as a solicitor so I am allowed to tell the occasional lawyer joke apparently which is great because that's what I'll probably do Anna thanks so much for joining. [00:01:06] Anna: Thanks Peter great to be here. [00:01:07] Pete: I think we came across each other because you were doing some stuff with MSIA a before the Medical Software Industry Association. [00:01:15] Anna: Yes, I presented at their annual conference recently and then also ran a workshop about privacy by Design so for anyone in that space of Designing health-related technology how to understand the kind of the skills and strategies that will help you build privacy compliance into the design upfront rather than trying to retrofit later.  [00:01:39] Pete: Love to get into more of that detail a bit later on in the conversation too. So, you know you're well well primed for the health Tech space and it's kind of cool to have someone on the show that you know is involved in many different Industries. You're not a vendor you're another player in this kind of big space in an area that's super important these days in our area of Health Tech being data privacy and security and whatnot.So I'm super excited about this conversation. So tell me a little bit more about Salinger Privacy what you guys do and where your clients operate? [00:02:13] Anna: Sure. So well basically we do all things privacy, so we do consulting, training, and we offer resources and one of the things I love about working in the Privacy space is It's just a fascinating intersection between law ethics and Technology. There's you know, there's always something new. There's always a new technology you coming around the corner that we have to get our heads around and help our clients manage that intersection between their Legal obligations ethics customer expectations and then you know what the technology can and what the technology should be allowed to do so, we work across as I said Consulting, training, and resources and we are an Australian business, we've got clients across Australia occasionally we dip our toe into the waters of New Zealand as well. But our clients come from their quite the mix. So, quite a lot of government clients but also businesses from the big end of town, to the nonprofits and also the small and very much Tech startup space.So we have clients everywhere from the kind of you know top ASX companies down to you know, one person's got a great new tech idea with working out of their spare bedroom at the moment kind of space. [00:03:28] Pete: Nice as to how much of it do you reckon is in that Health space? [00:03:34] Anna: Yeah health is really common as probably the second biggest sector after government. Although of course, you know often government is also in the health sector. So sometimes our clients will be the health service provider. So someone directly in that Health Service provision space and they just want to make sure they're dotting their I's crossing their T's in the way that they're collecting and using their patients data, but more typically where, not so much that direct service provision, but all the organizations that use and collect and hold and store health information. So sometimes that's insurance companies for example, sometimes it's governments working in public policy organizations getting into the data analytics space so focusing particularly on you know health and disability data for example, and then there's been some really big-ticket kind of projects we've worked on. So we worked on the Privacy impact assessment on the original design for My Health Record, back when it was originally called the Personally Controlled Electronic Health Record the original setup of the National Disability Insurance Scheme. So we've been involved in privacy impact assessments very early on in those very very big-ticket government projects which touch on health and disability data in particular. [00:04:55] Pete: So in health in particular then what are some of the biggest privacy concerns you see today that the pop-up. [00:05:02] Anna: So what I think is quite interesting about the health sector and it makes it different to other sectors is the health sector is a standout but in a bad way, unfortunately, so the health sector consistently tops the list of sectors reporting notifiable data breaches in Australia.So and when we talk about a notifiable data breach we're talking about when personal information has either been lost. Subject to unauthorized access or subject to an unauthorized disclosure [00:05:33] Pete: because it was those relatively recently wasn't it that want kind of recently that was something change that meant that companies needed to be more transparent with that kind of thing. [00:05:43] Anna: Yeah absolutely so the law was changed in February 2018. To make notification of it. So if you have this kind of data breach and if it's likely to result in serious harm to one or more individuals. It's now the law in Australia that you need to notify both price commissioner's office and those affected individuals, so your patient. [00:06:03] Pete: It's not just big companies or small companies. [00:06:05] Anna: So in the health sector at covers any health service provider regardless of their size. So you might be a one-person physiotherapy business, you know or an independent Locum you uncovered by the federal privacy act. So regardless of your size all Health Service Providers are covered. Outside the health sector, there is an exemption for small businesses. But that exemption does not apply to health service providers. So the health sector is already called out for I guess expectations of a high level of privacy protection for businesses no matter their size in the health sector just because of you know, patient's expectations. And so I think one of the things that makes the health sector different is patient expectations, so it's not that the type of privacy risks or privacy issues are different for health technology, for example, technology design as for any other type of Technology design, but the difference is that patients expectations about the protection of their Health Data are much higher. There's just this sort of intuitive if it's my health information. It must be kept absolutely private, but also the consequences of privacy breaches tend to be higher when you're talking about health information compared with say, you know, The Accidental disclosure of someone's credit card details. Yeah, there are some financial risks. But those risks can be resolved, you know relatively straightforward way. I don't want to minimize those risks, but it's quite a different story in terms of the repercussions individuals can face if their health information is disclosed without Authority. So that might be it could be discrimination embarrassment implications for their employment implications for insurance and all the rest. That's what makes the challenges for people working in technology into the health sector and technology so much higher not that as I said, not that. The nature of the Privacy risks themselves are terribly different. It's just that the expectations are higher and the consequences are worse if you have a data breach. [00:08:17] Pete: So you mentioned that you guys do privacy reviews. What is a privacy review exactly? [00:08:24] Anna: So we did two different kinds so one is called a privacy impact assessment and the other is generally called a privacy audit or a privacy compliance review and the difference really is where you're at in the design process for what we're reviewing. So if you are at the design stage of a new project new technology project, for example, we get in at the design stage and do what's called a privacy impact assessment. If you want us to review something that's already up and running. So your business as usual. We basically call that a privacy audit but regardless of which one of those we doing. We ask the same kind of questions and regardless of whether its the design of the software. It might be the design of a business process. It might be the design of a paper form. It doesn't have to be, you know, a high-tech project to need this kind of review. So regardless of the nature of the project we tend to ask the same questions so you know can and should we collect this data can and should we use it for this particular purpose who can we disclose it to? How do we keep it safe? So when we look at a new project, for example, we look at two broad things one is data flows and the other is data governance. So when what I describe as data flows what we're looking at is. What personal information is being collected? How is it going to be used? Who will it be disclosed to so those three points collection use and disclosure and for each of those we then ask is this going to be appropriate meaning is it going to be lawful? So is it going to comply with the Privacy principles that govern collection use and disclosure but not just is it going to be lawful? Is it going to meet your customers? You know your patients expectations. Is it going to be proportionate to a legitimate business need and is there critically, is there a more privacy-protective way you can achieve that business objective? Yeah, so always trying to come up with you know, helping our clients come up with the most privacy-protective design of a technology of a form of whatever it is but in a way that still achieves the businesses objectives. So once we've settled those questions about authorizing the data flows and making sure that there are lawful and appropriate then we look at data governance. So we usually start with looking at transparency. So have you communicated clearly to your customers about those data flows? You know how their personal information is going to be collected used and disclosed so that they actually understand what's going to happen. You know, I talk about the no-surprises rule no one likes to be surprised what's going to happen with their data and if they have if they're going to have choices is there a really easy way for them to manage those choices? You know, is it as straightforward as a swipe left or right on the app to say yes or no to something and one thing that's really important is in terms of transparency is for organizations to separate out what we see is three different things but often bundled together. So those three things are your privacy policy a collection notice explaining. At the point of collection what it is you're doing with the person's information and a consent mechanism if you're going to rely on consent, so those three things serve three quite different purposes, but especially online. The design practices often companies will jumble the three all together into one long legalistic confusing document and then they make users just tick agree [00:11:55] Pete: Tick a box and you can and you can click the link. Click the link to go read it that you it's not down the bottom. [00:12:02] Anna: Yeah, and we know no one ever reads it, I don't even read them. So we so in terms of data governance. We look importantly transparency. And then finally we look at other data governance questions, like have your staff being trained. Do you have a clear pathway for managing any requests you get for patients to access their data or correct it do you have a clear pathway for managing privacy complaints. Do you have a data breach response plan in place to your staff know what to do in the event of a data breach, so. All of those things that of data flows and data governance form part of whether we're doing a privacy impact assessment of a new project or a privacy audit of an existing business process and again, whether its software or something else, we look at both data flows and data governance as part of our privacy review. [00:12:53] Pete: And if I think about it from my experience. Often, you know, if I'm thinking as a health Tech vendor not many of them go out with any kind of massive intention on I don't know to steal patients information or doing something cynical with the data, but I've seen in the past two, it's not about the intention of what they're going to do with it, but it's almost the perception of what's going to happen or so having that kind of review or someone outside of the business to do that sounds like a pretty sensible thing to do. [00:13:23] Anna: Yeah, absolutely and certainly my experience having worked in you know, in a regulatory role in the primes Commissioner's Office the vast majority of privacy complaints and the vast majority of privacy breaches and data breaches are not coming from a point of malicious conduct or deliberately people doing the wrong thing. It's accidents and it's oversights and its people simply not understanding what their obligations are. Understanding that there are alternative ways to design things. So absolutely. Yeah. I very very rarely see privacy breaches arising from deliberate misconduct. Yeah. It's much more coming from a place of ignorance and sometimes people trying to do the right thing, you know trying to be helpful in trying to help the clients but accidentally doing the wrong thing. [00:14:20] Pete: Yeah, that can happen in health care too. Can you just send this across to me? I really need it because of this particular situation or something. Yeah. [00:14:27] Anna: Yeah. Absolutely. [00:14:28] Pete: It seems to be the right thing to do. It's a balance. So I'm thinking about that In our world AI artificial intelligence that's a big point of discussion regarding privacy for me anyway at the moment. How well do you think policies keeping up with the rate of pace of innovation in Australia more broadly as AI is really Innovative space and there are other things going on too, how's policy keeping up. [00:14:50] Anna: I think there's a constant challenge whether it's AI or any other kind of new technology. There's always this challenge of Law and policy keeping up. The first point I'd make is that privacy laws are designed deliberately. They're drafted deliberately to be technology-neutral and format neutral. So the idea is that they shouldn't actually be always playing catch-up. We've tried to anticipate in the drafting of our privacy laws technologies that haven't even been thought of yet and our starting point with those laws is Broad framed general kind of principles and it's all about respecting humans autonomy and dignity. So sort of one answer is the law is keeping up because it's it was already anticipating new technologies and that those new technologies should be being managed Under the Umbrella of existing laws and policies. But at the same time obviously the law is constantly being challenged in terms of how workable it is in practice and certainly with artificial intelligence the ethical and legal implications are something that not just in Australia but governments around the world are grappling with right at the moment. So there are projects trying to come up with legal and ethical frameworks to cover AI here in Australia the federal department of innovation and industries been working on something there are projects in the EU there are projects in the US There's a lot of activity going on at the moment and lots of those projects around the world are focusing on things like the fairness of AI as well as transparency. So in particular in Europe some of your listeners. May have heard of the GDPR are already. So that's a privacy law in Europe that was recently reformed the general data protection regulation and one of the reforms that was introduced is what you might call a right to algorithmic transparency. So that means that's kind of the laws way of trying to ensure that algorithms developed from AI from machine learning and from AI will be fair and accountable in terms of the impact of decision making that is made or decisions made based on those algorithms. So there's kind of a right to human review of computers decisions and there are rights to ask companies to pause or stop the processing and we would call that using or disclosing someone's personal information in order to ask for an explanation of well you know, how is this algorithm? Working so why you know, why was I denied health insurance or why is it why my premiums going up and my next-door neighbors are going down for example. [00:17:49] Pete: and its even more like as we're moving to space where artificial intelligence is assisting the process of Diagnostics and looks at an image and says this patient has cancer or not. You know that having that in a black box is not you know, and then just you know, let's ask the computer and wait to see what. Is it so much ambiguity there? [00:18:12] Anna: Yeah, absolutely. And in a legal sense, I think courts will increasingly struggle with this as well. If someone is challenging a decision, so it might not be the you know, the diagnosis but maybe it's the health insurers decision based on the diagnosis. You know, we're going to pay your claim or we're not going to pay your claim or whatever it is. You know based on some kind of calculation of risk of that disease developing for example, or you know, if the algorithm can't be explained to a court if it can't be explained to a judge. How is anyone going to be able to determine whether that algorithm was working in a fair and accurate way so one of the really critical privacy principles is it's called the data quality principle or the accuracy principle and it says that each of us has the right to ensure that only accurate relevant up-to-date complete not misleading information is used in decision-making about us and that obviously. Becomes more critical, you know the rubber hits the road where the decision is going to impact us negatively. So the decision is going to be you don't get the insurance or we don't pay your claim. You don't get the job. You don't get access to housing you don't get access to credit for example, and so if you've got decisions made in a black box and no one can explain how they're made because. Yeah, there was some machine learning going on in the AI system came up with its own algorithm. How can anyone test how can a court test whether or not that decision making and the data on which it was based was, you know accurate Fair relevant up-to-date Etc. So that's certainly one big challenge for AI that the sort of the transparency and the accountability for it and I think the other Big Challenge or the other area where AI poses a challenge in terms of compliance with Privacy Law is the lawfulness of the data flows in the first place. So, you know, it's when I was talking about when we do a privacy review we're looking at the data flows meaning what personal information is collected, how it's used who it's disclosed to and in the world of AI your ability to lawfully collect use or disclose data. It's extremely hard to rely on consent as your lawful mechanism consent isn't is by no means not this by no means the only lawful mechanism. There are lots of ways under the Privacy principles that allow companies and governments to collect use and disclose personal information. But quite often consent is what organizations try to rely on but in AI it's really challenging. So if you think about do you do example AI is being used to diagnose some health conditions? Yeah, much of the data. Used in the first place to train the machine learning that will create the AI will create the algorithm that training data what we call a training data will have been collected for some other purpose. So it will have been years worth of data collecting about real hospitals being treated in real patients being treated in real hospitals. That and that becomes the training data set for the machine learning. So it's fairly likely that the patients in the past were not asked to consent but that time to sometime in the future use of their data for this quite different purpose. [00:21:56] Pete: That's something that wasn't even thought of at the time. [00:21:59] Anna: So it's not just about treating you at some point in the future a machine will use your data to train another machine to recognize patterns in data, so but even now if we started to ask patients for their consent, you know as well as us treating you in hospital today. Do you consent to your information being used for AI development in the future? How could a patient today possibly give informed consent? Because the whole point of machine learning and AI is to kind of throw all the data in the mix and just see what pops out it's not a kind of if you like old-fashioned kind of you know, he's a research by hypothesis. This is the question we're asking here's exactly how we're going to conduct the experiment. Yes. So it's not like a clinical trial whereas a patient. I know what my disease is. I'm being offered a new kind of medicine. I've been warned about the possible side effects, and I've had the chance to say yes or no AI and machine learning at based on quite different kinds of research practices, which don't usually involve. That kind of one-on-one sit-down discussion with an individual. It's based on very very large data sets to create those training data sets. It's based on historical data. And typically you don't go back and you don't have the ability to go back and ask for everyone's consent. It's very difficult to rely on patient consent as the lawful basis for health information to be collected used or disclosed for AI purposes. As I said, it's not the only possibility but quite often companies work on the assumption that consent is going to be their legal mechanism and it turns out not to be.Kind of the pragmatic solution for them, but I don't think that that's something that's particularly. Well understood yet. [00:23:52] Pete: What is the solution then like if consent isn't it? Like how does a company doing AI in health or any area I guess operate? [00:24:01] Anna: so there are other legal mechanisms and one of them is and it depends, you know, which Privacy Law you're talking about which jurisdiction you're in but there's usually some kind of research exemption and that usually, again it differs kind of from state to state and federal and Country to country but the research exemptions usually have some role for human research Ethics Committee which gets to weigh up the ethical considerations. Think about where the public interest lies and that committee usually has the power to waive the requirement for consent. There is this kind of structured way to work through thinking about those issues and the National Health and Medical Research Council has guidelines on you know how to set up a human research Ethics Committee and what a properly constituted committee looks like and all of the factors that they need to, you know, there are guidelines about how they need to reach their kind of decision making, so it's not as simple as simply you know, those the tick a box mandatory terms and conditions. That's not going to constitute a valid consent in Privacy Law. So that's just not the right legal mechanism in the most in the majority of cases for artificial intelligence kind of development.  [00:25:25] Pete: Wow so much complexity to factor in and you can going through even just the tip of the iceberg of all of that you can see a lot of work underneath it and questions and kind of vagueness that kind of speak to the reasons why the rate of innovation moves so much faster than other areas that are important like Policy. That's really interesting. Hey look so moving on what should Australian health tech software vendors be most concerned about when developing a solution today then. [00:26:01] Anna: I think first of all make sure you're thinking about both your legal obligations and your customers expectations, you know, the law is by the law. I'm talking about the Privacy principles built into Privacy Law the law tries to codify your basic ethical obligations, but it really sets the minimum kind of standard and often your customers expectations will set a higher standard than just legal compliance. So legal compliance is obviously necessary, but it really should just be considered the minimum Baseline not the entire set of things that you need to think about. I mentioned before the role of consent is in reality quite fraught so if you are relying on your patients consent to do something with their health information you absolutely need to make sure that that consent is actually going to be valid under privacy law you know, it will hold up to scrutiny. So you can't under Privacy Law. You can't say that you're relying on a patient's consent if they actually had no choice to say. No, it has to be voluntary. It has to be informed it has to be specific So it can't be included in mandatory terms and conditions, for example, an opt-out model is not consent. For example, so as I said consent is not the only legal mechanism. There are plenty of other mechanisms. But if that's the one you're relying on you need to be really careful to get that right and another thing is to make sure that your technology has been designed with privacy in mind. So we talked about this concept of privacy by design which is all about baking your privacy controls into the design of systems from. The beginning rather than trying to you know retrofit them in later and I think well what I find usually is a lot of effort goes into the cybersecurity side of things, you know, keeping out the external Bad actors and that's obviously incredibly important but our particular kind of expertise and our skill set is focused more on the internal actors so when you are whether you're designing tech your configuring it implementing it you need to think about your customers but also about your staff or your trusted users your trusted insiders. So making sure that Tech is designed so that its staff or other authorized users only see the absolute minimum amount of personal information about your customers or your patients that they really need to do their job, you know, the legislation says that you have to do this a lot of people come back and say oh, we've got a code of conduct for our employees. We make the more sign it so that's okay. The law says that that is not enough and you know case law comes basically the law that comes from Court decisions and tribunal decisions backs that up that just having you know, letting all staff see all patient records but saying oh, but they signed a code of conduct that's not going to be enough You won't be complying with your privacy legal obligations if that's all you're doing. So you need the same things like role-based access controls, but there's a whole bunch of other privacy controls that can be built into Tech design and it will depend on the kind of product you're or service that you're designing But depending on what it is you're doing, you know, if you're if you've got a data analytics project and using a data warehouse, for example, we would look at filtering out certain data fields. And then we'd look at masking other data fields from the view of particular user groups. If you think about something like an E-health record system, you would limit the search functionality to prevent misuse, you know, the kind of scenario we're usually looking at is, you know, could a staff member look up health information about their partner or their ex-partner or their next-door neighbour so you might put in a test that users need to pass before they can even access customer records. For example, rather than just enabling any user to do a global search against any customer or patient name, so there's plenty of different things you can do. So we use 8 privacy design strategies to help guide Our advice to our clients when we're reviewing technology design software design and sometimes the solution lies in the design of their technology itself, but quite often it's outside the technology so the solution might be or a mix of you know, staff training policies and procedures back to that transparency issue. So how you communicate with your customers. There are lots of different angles we can come from when we're trying to mitigate privacy risks. [00:30:50] Pete: Wow there's a lot to cover I'm sure there are many people listening and thinking this probably a few things that could be applied in their business in the healthcare space, whether it's they're providing the service or the software that sits behind it. I think it's evident that it that it's something that's important to everyone from that single physio, you mentioned right through to the big organizations have got a lot more structure and process to handle this stuff and even they get it wrong a lot too. So having a dedicated focus in that like you guys is particularly interesting so Thank you for sharing your thoughts and insights on that particular topic. [00:31:30] Anna: Great. Thanks for having me on the show.  

Anna Jordan meets Piers Linney, an entrepreneur, investor and former Dragon on Dragon's Den. We discuss the most memorable pitches from the show as well as Piers' first foray into entrepreneurship.    Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles on starting a business and raising external finance. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Want to read the interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Piers Linney, an entrepreneur and investor who is best known for his time as a Dragon on Dragon’s Den. We’ll be talking about Piers’ enterprising beginnings and how you can drive your small business forward, even during difficult spells.  Anna: Hello Piers. Piers: Hi Anna. Anna: How are you? Piers: Very good. Anna: Great. OK, as the intro suggests, I’d like to go back a bit. As we know, it’s easier for entrepreneurs to get started earlier and reach a larger audience, helped by the likes of selling platforms like eBay and Depop. But you were just as entrepreneurial, even when you were a teenager – that was before the introduction of social media, apps. I understand that you used to sell the Sunday papers, but you bypassed the… Piers: Ah, you’re going way back now! [laughs] Yup, yup, I did. So, you bypassed the newsagent because you saw a gap in the market there and you want to the wholesaler and distributed the Sunday paper around your neighbourhood. Piers: Yes, so, just going back to your earlier point. The fact that you can start a business more easily these days – there are platforms that help you in terms of distribution – it doesn’t mean you should. It’s still about the idea. What I learned early on – I’ve always been fascinated about business, really – I grew up in a village in Milltown, so a lot of the neighbours had their own businesses. I didn’t really know anybody who had a job in terms of getting up in the morning and going off to work. They were builders, joiners, jobs that you work with your hands. Maybe owned a quarry. I sort of thought: ‘Right, I had a job’ which was my paper round, which paid £5 a week. If I was late it was £4.50, which shows you how long ago this was. And I thought: ‘This is just a mug’s game’. It was very cold up in the north in those days. Global warming’s made it easier. And I thought: ‘What can I do?’ So, one morning on a Sunday when they [the newsagent] didn’t deliver, my dad said to me: ‘Could you get me my paper? I don’t want to get out of bed.’ And I said: ‘OK, I’ll go and get it for you.’ And he gave me 50p. I said: ‘Hang on a minute, that’s pretty good money compared to what I’m earning on my paper round.’ The next-door neighbour said to me: ‘Oh, can you do the same?’ My dad was telling him about the new service. And I thought: ‘Hang on, there’s something in this.’ I flyered my whole neighbourhood and built a paper round. I was earning £15-£20 on a Sunday morning for doing a bit of a longer paper round, but it was first entrée and my first understanding that if you find a niche and you find a product or a service that somebody wants and it adds value to their lives, and they’re willing to pay you more than it costs to deliver that service, i.e. it’s profitable, then you can create value and – in this case, it was a small example – some wealth. I used that money to buy my first and very expensive BMX. And through that I understand that the idea’s great and the execution clearly, but what it also came down to is a lot of hard work and graft. I Imagine it must’ve taken quite a bit of confidence as well at that age. How did you approach the wholesaler and how did they respond to you? Piers: I’ve never lacked self-confidence and it’s probably something that’s helpful in being an entrepreneur. Becoming confident or becoming a leader in many ways is something that can be instilled in you or you can be born with it, or it’s something you can learn. In the military, they can train leaders. I was always confident, and I could see the opportunity to make money. And again, the wholesaler, all he got was another customer, it just wasn’t a newsagent. His bundle of papers, rather than drop it outside a newsagent, was dropped off at someone’s house, at a residential address. He didn’t really care – he was just making a bit more money.                 I understand that your mother set up her own business after retiring from nursing in the NHS, I’m sure that was some kind of inspiration to you.   Piers: People say to me: ‘Who are your role models in life?’ I’ve never had formal mentors. My initial role models were my parents. My dad was a Mancunian working-class lad who got into Cambridge on a scholarship, so he was bright. Then after that, it was people that I worked with. I’ve always worked with people who are more senior that are better than me. Then after that, I’ve always tried to hire people that are better than me. I’ve had three meetings today and they’ve all been with people that know more about something that I’m looking to get into. And that’s really important because you never have all the answers. The world’s moving so quickly now and the market is so dynamic that you can’t be expected to have the answers. And if you think you have, you’re probably wrong. What would you say in terms of small businesses being able to hire better talent? Perhaps because they’re nimbler, they can innovate at a faster rate. Would you agree with that? Piers: I’ve been through this quite a few times where you’ve got a small business and you want to attract talent. Now, a couple of things: the first one is that, really, you shouldn’t be concerned about where talent resides. If you want to have a talented forklift truck driver, they probably need to live reasonably close to your warehouse. But if you’re looking at the creative economy and tech-based businesses, talent can live anywhere now. It doesn’t matter. The idea of a city even is arguably unnecessary going forward into the future. Don’t worry about where talent is, just go for the best talent. You’ve then got to be more creative to access more talent because they’re going to have more people talking to them, they might have a nice cushy job in a big company. You’ve got to be more creative about how you bring them onboard, about renumeration. If you’ve got a company you intend to sell or float one day, you can offer people shares. You shouldn’t give shares in a company that’s intending to be a lifestyle business forever – unless you’re going to make money in dividends. Think about how you’re going to add value to their lives. A lot of the entrepreneurs I come across think that these senior people who are joining them are doing them a favour. But you’ve got to remember that you’re doing them a favour actually because if they didn’t want to leave corporate life and do something more interesting and entrepreneurial where they have a better work-life balance, they wouldn’t be talking to you. And when you bring people onboard – no matter who they are, how talented they are – think very carefully about handing out shares. Make sure that when they leave, for whatever reason, you can get them back. But the talent is out there. And the other thing about talent that I’m very passionate about is diversity. There’s a pool of talent. If you’re looking for people who look like you, have the same religious beliefs as you, same sexuality as you, they live in the same area and went to the same school as you, you’re limiting your talent pool. Don’t do that. You need to think about diversity in all of its forms, especially in terms of thought as well, to access a broader and deeper talent pool. That’s the competitive advantage. There’s a huge amount of talent out there. I’m a trustee of Nesta as well, the innovation charity, and if you look forwards, the research about robotics and AI, menial jobs and even jobs such as accountants and lawyers [are at risk]. Software’s pretty good at adding up numbers, it’s pretty good at looking at datasets and applying logic to it. It’s not just Uber drivers and forklift truck drivers that have got a problem; it’s the professions. So, creativity is what differentiates us from the machines. And the talent you access in the future is going to have that creative edge. My mantra is that you’ve got to have a plan, but your plan has to have some growth in it. Add some creativity, some innovation, some differentiation to your product or service to attract different customers. Having no plan for growth, in a world that is changing very quickly, is a very bad plan. You wake up one morning, and you find your market, your customers, your product, your supply chain – something’s changed which means that you’re no longer relevant or you no longer have a profit margin. Anna: I was actually reading an article about ice cream vans the other day and they seem to be a type of business that – there are some that have moved forward but a lot of them are in the same types of vans, still doing your normal vanilla with a Flake and they haven’t moved on and they’re wondering [why they’re falling behind]. Piers: They should be doing smoothie vans! Anna: Yeah! Piers: It doesn’t matter what you do, 20-30 years ago – I’m generalising now – you could do that. I don’t think it’s a wise plan these days – ice cream van, corner shop, tech company, it doesn’t matter – to rest on your laurels. You’ve got to keep talking to your customers about what it is they want so you understand change, ideally before it happens.                        You’ve spoken a bit about instilling the values of entrepreneurialism. How are you doing that with your two daughters? Piers: Another interesting thing I’m quite interested in is the future of work, the future of employment. Dell has some research that says in 30 years, 85pc of the jobs that exist don’t exist today. There’s other research that says ten years out, half of them don’t exist today. You’ve got an education system that’s training your children to enter a world that the teachers don’t understand, that I don’t understand. It’s very difficult. They’ve got to equip kids with these sorts of skills and keep them as a rally car, as I call it, to the unweighted so you could go left or right as you go over the brow of the hill – and that’s hard to do. My daughter – I’ve got a daughter called Tiger. I got called into school, actually, by the head teacher. She said she’s been selling things at school and they need to talk to her. I thought she’d made a couple of quid. I asked what happened and the teacher said: ‘She got some erasers and she was making them funky and selling them on at a margin.’ I asked how much money she made and she said £60. They said that I need to tell her off and I refused. I take the point about taking money off the other kids, maybe there should be some kind of bartering, but I’m not going to punish my daughter for being entrepreneurial and making some money – that’s all she’s ever seen me do! Anna: Exactly. Do you know who her dad is?! Piers: It was quite interesting to see that. I bring them up to – they’re young, so I don’t really sit them down and go over how to start a business with them. But I think they get it, that my view is that – especially when they enter the labour market – is if you can, work for yourself. It’s got its problems, you sacrifice, it’s got its risks, but at the end of the day you’re masters of your own destiny. You seem to have a knack for identifying emerging markets as well [Piers launched cloud tech firm Outsourcery before the cloud was popular]. What kind of emerging markets do you see coming up?  Piers: I was into the telecoms which was the tail-end of that, really, the particular way it was done. I was into cloud and cloud is the way things are now. Since then I’ve been looking at what I do next. I made some investments, some work and some don’t, and I’ve been looking at doing something big, something disruptive. I’ve been looking at wellness, so health, fitness and now I’m looking now more at going back almost into what I know, which is markets, SME services. I’m trying to disrupt those because a lot of them just have not changed, even since I was in them ten years ago. And even ten years before that, they haven’t changed. I think there’s an opportunity in there in services for small to medium-sized businesses to disrupt markets.      Coming on to everybody’s favourite, Dragon’s Den. I’m sure you would’ve had a lot of pitches in your time on the show, but which was the most memorable one for you and why? Piers: There’s two, I suppose. I’ll give you the negative, funny one first. That was Bathomatic, which was a chap that turned up wanting £1m or £2m for 20pc and he had a product which pretty much filled a bath and dropped some rose oil in it. I said I’ll do that myself actually. I don’t need to spend £15,000 on something that turns a tap on and off. We asked what the money was really for. He had this pretend plaque/device that didn’t really work, it was a mock-up, and he said he needed a floor in the Shard for the marketing suite. You laugh at that, but I’ve heard about entrepreneurs who have got equally bonkers ideas and raised money from people. That was one of the comedy moments. The most interesting one for me was a company that at the time was called Lost My Name and now it’s called Wonderbly. That was the leading producer of personalised children’s, it was books, now it’s increasingly content. They raised investment from the likes of Google and other venture firms, and they’ve been growing. I was one of the first to do real tech on Dragon’s Den. There were four or five Israeli entrepreneurs walked in the Den and they all had their venture capital term sheet and I thought: ‘What’s there not to like?’ They knew what they were talking about and that’s been very successful. So hopefully out of Dragon’s Den I’ll make some money because it’s like a portfolio – some work, some don’t, some you lose money, some make money. Anna: Yeah, it was as you were saying as well, personalisation is a huge market and growing, as is tech, so combine that – Piers: Personalisation is everywhere now. I’ve met lots of founders recently and whether it’s books or baby’s clothes, technology allows you to do that now. It was very hard, very expensive to do this. Companies like the Moonpigs and all those kind of people in the world and the moo.coms, personalised greetings cards and business cards, is normal now. It was very hard to do a decade ago, so personalisation is somewhere where you can really add value. People want to see personalisation, they want to see provenance, they want to know the founder’s story. The new consumer that’s beginning to amass disposable income, they want to see more, they don’t want to have some clever advert that’s sold on something they don’t really want. But increasingly, people are interested in – not all sectors – but they’re interested in where did this product come from, who’s put it together, what’s the ethos of that business – how do they treat their customers, their employees, the environment – locally, globally. That’s what you need to think about because especially on the eco side of things you’re seeing now that the Millennials, whatever you want to call them – Gen Z – Millennials now have the… Anna: Hiya! Piers: Like yourself. Millennials are mid-level managers in most companies now, they’re moving up, because they’re getting older. And they are changing the way in which products and services are consumed – because these were little things that didn’t matter too much, they were seen as ‘got to have it for the marketing’. Now you’ve got to have it because if you don’t have it, they’re not going to buy your product or service. Anna: And it’s so easy to research as well. So, if there’s something you fall down on, people can research it. Boom – there you go. Piers: That means you have to be transparent about it as well.  Because if you’re not, people are going to start asking questions. You don’t have to be, always. There are lots of people that make good money out of businesses that don’t do any of this. They just found a product. I mean, mobile phones. I used to be in mobile, and people made a lot of money out of it and the service was pretty awful. But at the end of the day, they had a product that selling it was like shooting fish in a barrel. Because it was an amazing new product that everyone wanted, nobody had one, so you couldn’t really go wrong – and those markets haven’t really changed much since. At the time of recording, it is Small Business Advice Week. This year it’s running from 2nd-8th September. First off, it’s a little bit difficult to get around this topic and it may very well change by the time the podcast goes live. What advice do you have for small businesses to prepare and operate in the event of a no-deal Brexit? Piers: Well, the problem with that is that we don’t know what a no-deal Brexit means. That’s the bad thing about it: we should not be in this position. The economy depends upon entrepreneurs and entrepreneurship and innovation. And having a period of time where – and I’ve seen this – on a large scale and also on a small scale, where investment, decisions, sales cycles, things have been delayed. That slows the economy down and it has slowed the economy down and that’s going to continue. And even if we end up with a no-deal, and it’s been said that over time, we’re all dead. So, if you’re looking at it in one year it’s probably bad but in five years, ten years, things change and water will find its level again. But there’s going to be a period of time where the innovation in the UK, the economy and entrepreneurs are being stifled. And I don’t care what the outcome is, we should never have been put in this position. So, in terms of answering your question, it’s very hard. It actually makes sense, and I hate saying this, it does make sense in many ways to delay investments. Maybe in terms of marketing or looking overseas or EU relationships or your supply chain. Just give it a week. It was worse six months ago, at least now you’re looking at maybe days and weeks. It’s a very hard question to answer. Anna: It is, isn’t it? Piers: It’s incredibly frustrating. Anna: Yeah, we’ve had so many people ask. Piers: There’s no easy answer to that, sadly. Possibly something a little more positive. What is the most common question you get and what advice do you give small business owners in return?    Piers: One thing I’m talking about this week a lot is financing. I’ve worked in the US quite a lot and you look at entrepreneurs there and even small business owners, the ones who aren’t looking to grow exponentially, it’s about if you need to grow a business sometimes, your net income, your profits, don’t provide sufficient capital to fund your growth aspirations. You need to raise money. That could be debt, it might be equity. It depends where your business is in its life cycle and its profitability, and your balance sheet. And a lot of UK entrepreneurs, it seems, are afraid of raising external finance. So, raising external finance isn’t for everybody, but given the numbers are 70pc-80pc of UK businesses would rather forego growth than raise external finance, that needs to change. I don’t know exactly how much, but by changing it you can put more into the engine of the UK economy, and how these businesses grow. And that’s really simplistically about understanding your options. There are lots more options now: peer to peer lending or challenger banks or angels or angel funds, crowdfunding. There’s lots more ways you can raise capital which you couldn’t do five, even three years ago in some cases. Go and look at the options if you need to grow, understand them and then it comes down to a contract. Be happy with the terms of that contract and the small print. Can you lose your business, can you lose your shirt? Are they draconian terms? This is where you need a good lawyer, I’m not joking about that either. When someone hands over a term sheet or a document for debt (or a shareholder agreement if you’re looking at equity), you need to understand exactly what that means for you and not just if things go well. You need to understand what happens if things don’t go well. Extreme examples – there’s no point having an investment agreement where you are restricted, you have a veto of you raising debt and equity if you need to raise more because they can hold a gun to your head, essentially. There’s no point having documentation for your start-up which says that in year four, you will hit this EBITDAR number (Earnings Before Interest, Depreciation, Amoritisation and Restructuring or Rent costs) or they have swamp rights. They can take over the board and fire you. They’re extreme examples, but I’ve seen them. Both professionally and I’ve seen them in things put before me as well. So, understand the detail and the small print and make sure that if things don’t go to plan, you know where you stand. And I’ve known one example recently where someone built a business, they had a 12 million evaluation, they raised £2-£3million and within a month, they were out. They missed some sales target. But don’t be afraid of raising finance if you want to grow because otherwise in many, many cases, you can’t really grow. Anna: Well, that’s it from me unless there’s anything else that you’d like to add. Piers: No - we’ve covered some ground there. Anna: Thanks for coming on the show, Piers. Piers: It’s a pleasure. Anna: You can find out more about Piers at pierslinney.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more information on starting and growing your own business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.   

Anna Jordan meets Nicola Horlick, an investment fund manager and founder of business P2P lending firm, Money&Co. She talks about the slowing economy and why you should never go into the restaurant business.    Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles about peer to peer lending.   Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Want to read the interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Nicola Horlick, an entrepreneur and investment manager with other thirty years of experience. She’s the CEO of P2P investment firm, Money&Co, and as such, we’ll be talking about business finance. Anna: Hello, Nicola. Nicola: Hi. Anna: How are you doing? Nicola: Very well, thanks. First, I’d like to ask you about moving from finance. How is it becoming an entrepreneur for the first time having worked in that industry for quite a while? Nicola: Yeah, well originally, I worked for big banks and I was very lucky. I started at a big bank that was going very strongly and after that I was sent to another bank which had a very major problem with one of its businesses and I had to turn it around. And then I went to the French bank, SocGen (Société Générale) and they asked me to set up a fund management business for them literally from scratch, so it was just me, a Frenchman and a secretary on day one. That naturally took me to the point of saying “I really need to do something on my own now.” I’d sort of done everything within the banking environment and having literally set up a business from scratch it then gave me the bug, so to speak. The next step after that was to set up a fund management business with no big bank – just me – and getting some backers. I set it up in 2004 and it was approved in 2005 by the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) that was Bramdean Asset Management. I’ve set up numerous different businesses since then, mostly around finance. In 2011, I set up a private equity business called Rockpool with two guys who are both ex-3i (an international investor group). I then also set up some film finance businesses and I got involved in the music industry and I listed a vehicle on the London Stock Exchange to invest in alternative investments. And then I’ve done less successful things like setting up a restaurant which was a very, very bad idea. I’m still trying to extricate myself from that now. But you know, it’s led me to a different world, really. And then ultimately I set up Money&Co in 2013 and Money&Co is a peer to peer lending platform. So, it’s individuals who want a better rate on their cash lending to businesses to help them grow. Our bad debt experience to date has only been 0.04pc per annum. We’ve actually only had one bad debt in five years. And so with this, it’s not that we’re unique – there are others, Funding Circle is massive – that lend to small businesses. We take a more considered approach. It’s mainly because I’m a fund manager and I’ve been an investor for so long. Whereas a lot of the people running these businesses might come from different backgrounds – they might come from tech or marketing backgrounds rather than money management backgrounds. What criteria do you look for in the businesses you want to invest in? Nicola: So, we have some very basic requirements, like you must have three years of filed accounts; the company must have been profitable in the last year of operation; and it needs to demonstrate to us that it’s affordable for them to borrow so we’ll never ever lend to a start-up, for example. I’d like to talk a bit about the peer to peer lending market. On the retail side, the FCA are introducing tighter rules for retail investors after the collapse of Lendy. How is that going to affect the business investment side and the industry as a whole? Nicola: Well as far as I’m concerned, it’s a very good thing. Because when it started it was what was known as ‘light touch regulation’. So there weren’t many rules and it did concern me that there were people running these services who often didn’t have a financial services background and I’m not sure that’s the right thing for the lenders. A lot of them are older as well and are looking for income and it’s important to protect them as much as you can. So I actually welcome the new regime which is going to come on 9th December by the FCA which is going to tighten up on all of this stuff because it’s hopefully going to mean that the right people are lending and that the people doing the lending on their behalf are better qualified to do that and that their money is better protected. So, Money&Co, as far as you can see, will always exist as a P2P lender? Will you ever introduce other products? Nicola: I mean we could, but that might confuse people. I think we should focus on that because there are huge opportunities in lending. My own background is very much an equity background, so I’m relatively new. I’ve only being doing lending for five years out of 36 years of being in financial services., so I’m a relative novice. There are huge areas of lending that you can bring into the P2P arena. So for example, leasing is an absolutely vast industry. There’s £100bn a year of leasing contracts in this country, 25 of which is business critical leasing. So that’s the printing press for the printing company or the trucks for the trucking company or the dental suite for the dentist: things that those businesses can absolutely not do without. There is absolutely no reason you can’t put those in a P2P environment, those types of loans. And housebuilding is a very good example of where banks are reluctant to lend – there’s a shortage of housing in this country. There’s no reason why we can’t devise a product and in fact we are in the middle of doing just that, for that industry to build more houses. And that’s taken us to the point of thinking that prefab has never properly taken off in this country. It’s much more of a thing in countries like Germany and Austria, but that’s a way of building them much faster and in a much more eco-friendly way, because you can insulate them in the factory and you can put the houses up in a couple of weeks. You can fast-track the build so that instead of having men standing out in the rain putting one brick on top of another, which is crazy in this day and age, you can assemble them really fast and you can make much more interesting developments architecturally. It’s a bit like LEGO; you can have all different shapes and you can make it more interesting. So, we’re looking at ways of raising money from institutions to actually fund housebuilders. Now these would still in effect be P2P loans but from an institution lending to a housebuilder rather than an individual lending to a housebuilder. Coming back to you as an entrepreneur, I understand that Money&Co has suffered a significant financial loss [£1.4m going into March 2018]. You have said there’ll be a substantial profit going into March 2020. What are your recovery plans and how will you go about setting them? Nicola: Ugh, this is such a typical Daily Mail story. If you actually look at how much money we’ve lost in the last five years and compare that to Funding Circle, it’s a fraction of the amount. Funding Circle in 2018 lost £50m in one year. Money&Co has made very small losses relative to Funding Circle. My aim is to make the business profitable as soon as possible because I don’t really believe in building businesses that make losses and losses and losses. And we could’ve lent an awful lot more money if we’d burned more money, but that’s not our approach. Our approach is to build it in a very steady way and I do expect to make a profit… well, certainly break even in the year to 2020. In fact, we may not because it depends how much we spend on marketing. And you know, if we really want to accelerate the growth of the business, we may decide we want to spend more on marketing. If we spent less, we could make a profit; if we spent more, we’re going to end up with a bigger business the year after. It’s a fine line. How do you make that decision of whether the marketing is worth it? Nicola: Well, just before I spoke to you, we were having a meeting about that and just going through our marketing strategy and trying to decide how much we should spend. It’s quite formulaic, really. We sort of know. Of course, we’ve got this problem – not really a problem – but the fact we’ve got the FCA which is tightening up all the rules which makes direct consumer marketing a little bit more complex than it was previously. But it’s a bit binary, you know – if you spend this amount of money on Google in its various forms, you’re likely to get a certain number of clients. So it’s really a matter of how much we want to put into the hopper and how much we’re going to get out at the other end. And also, how many loans we’ve got that we think need to be funded? But assuming we are able to get the institutional money that we need to get to help us fund housebuilders, we’ll certainly be at break-even and probably make profit by the year to March 2020. But I don’t make any apology – it’s a start-up fintech business. That’s what fintech businesses do, make losses. You started up in 2013, correct? Nicola: So the company was formed in 2013 and then we launched the business in 2014, April, the site went live. And we completed the first loan in July 2014.  Right, OK. Normally with a start-up company, it’s usually the first year or so that’s a bit crackly but then it starts to even out after that. Nicola: What, in terms of profitability? Anna: Yeah. Nicola: Yeah, well not in fintech. If you look at all the people with fintech businesses who have been running them over the last few years, you’ll see that they’ve all made big losses. It’s sort of accepted that when it’s a new industry, you’ve got to establish the industry and you’ve got to throw money at it in order to create it. It’s not like setting up shops – well actually, shops are a pretty bad example because they’re not very easy to do these days – but there are more traditional businesses where somebody might have been working for an engineering company and then sets up on their own. Usually the rule is that companies move into profit in year three, in its third full year of operation, that’s what I’d normally expect. But you know, with this, there’s a discretionary element to it which is the marketing spend. We could just run a business that is profitable and keep it small, or we could decide to make it to make it a lot bigger and in order to do that we need to spend a lot of money on marketing. What do you think about the state of business in the UK, especially in the light of Brexit? Nicola: Nobody seems to have noticed that the economy has slowed down very significantly. And we do see it – though a lot of our loans are property-backed loans, we do have some engineering businesses, for example, that we’ve lent to, that are beginning to see a slowdown. And that is Brexit-related in that uncertainty means that people don’t make decisions. So, businesses have not been investing because they don’t know what’s going to happen and there is evidence that car manufacturing companies, for example, are beginning to move things out of the UK. And the number of cars being manufactured in the UK is down 20pc so far this year on the same time last year. These things are beginning to impact on the economy, and they’ll have knock-on effects on all of the businesses we lend to, which is one of the reasons for being very cautious and one of the reasons why I have been so cautious about growing our book. But yeah, I have found generally, during my investing life, that I make a lot more money in bad times than in good. Because in good times any fool can make money, because everything is going up. In bad times, your skill comes into play. It sounds counter-intuitive, but I’m likely to be lending a lot more money in a recession than when things are booming because I will be taking on less risky loans. It’s just that lenders tend to withdraw; they react to recessionary conditions. The banks react during recessions. So, during a recession, there are more opportunities for people who have money to lend. I expect there to be a recession and I expect to build the loan book faster, rather strangely, than I was when things were going really well. When things were going really well, you had Funding Circle throwing money at these borrowers, you had banks, you had international banks, you had vast amounts of money sloshing around. We had quantitative easing – a lot of money being printed. If it’s being printed you’ve got to do something with it. All of that will come to an end and it’ll be much harder for borrowers to find lenders and that provides us with the opportunity and means we’re more likely to find better-quality borrowers during that period of time. And one last thing I’d like to talk about. So the restaurant, Georgina’s, that you used to run, went bust. What are the toughest lessons you learned as an entrepreneur? Nicola: Well, it’s not quite true to say that it went bust. What we did was we closed it down and we moved to a different location. Although it wasn’t called Georgina’s – we called it The Walrus Room – and it was in Battersea Rise. It’s more a bar with food rather than a restaurant. And we’ve just got a new manager to come and manage it. I’m still involved in it, but it’s a nightmare industry and I absolutely recommend that nobody should go into restaurants. I think it only works if you’re a really talented chef and it’s your restaurant. Or if you’re Pizza Express. Anything in-between doesn’t work, so just a vanity thing where you open a restaurant because you like the idea of owning a restaurant, that’s a very, very bad idea. What are the toughest parts of running [a restaurant]? Nicola: Well, the costs are just ridiculous. The rents on the high street are still ridiculously high. A unit on Georgina’s – the original unit – the annual rent was £65,000 a year. The Council Tax was £28,000 a year, I mean it’s outrageous: £28,000 a year?! Then one-sixth of your turnover goes to the VAT man, plus we had 14 employees because it was a full-service restaurant. So, we had to pay 13.8pc of the wage bill in national insurance. You’re basically in business to pay tax and rent – that’s it. And the idea that you’re going to make a profit, unless you’ve got some really big-name chef behind it, is pretty much impossible, in my view. And finally, coming slightly back to my first question, what tips do you have for entrepreneurs – or want to be entrepreneurs – starting their own business for the first time? Nicola: You need to make sure you’ve got some proper funding. A lot of people end up funding their business through credit card debt or getting loans from loan sharks, I mean that’s just absolutely not the way to do it. The Seed Enterprise Investment Scheme (SEIS) is a very, very good thing because it allows you to raise £150,000 and the people who invest can get 50pc back as long as they’re UK taxpayers. And so I think people need to put in the work at the beginning to make sure they’re raising the money before they’ve actually started the business and they shouldn’t be putting their life savings at risk and they shouldn’t be putting their money on credit cards or going to loan sharks. It’s really important to make sure that the business is financed properly from day one.  Anna: Great. Thanks ever so much for coming on the show, Nicola. Nicola: Not at all. Anna: You can find out more about Money&Co at moneyandco.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on alternative investments. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.      

You can find Anna's work on instagram @annabondocartist  and her website http://www.annabondocartist.com/ Anna Bondoc is a Los Angeles based artist, writer, and educator who was originally born in the Philippines, raised in Ohio, and now resides here in LA with her husband, her daughter, and their dog penny. In 2005, Anna started her business on the Bondoc designs, creating just very intricate layered paper cuts for fine art creations, stationery, and creating patterns. Her work has been featured in Apartment Therapy, Traditional Home, as well as Cloth Paper & Scissors, and in 2012 she created a how to book called Simply Paper Cutting. However, since then she has changed gears and she is now working with Pen and Ink, as well as with Alcohol Inks, and I'm curious to talk to her today to find out what else is on the horizon. Ever since I've known her she has been curious, been innovative, and always trying her hand at different things. So I'm really excited to welcome her to the podcast today and learn what else is on the horizon. Katty: As long as I've known you, you have been dabbling in some sort of a creative endeavor, which is so interesting for me and looking in it's always been so exciting to see all the various mediums that you're touching. I'd love to tell our audience really talk about how you got your start and, you know, where you are today. Anna: Sure. Well, I love that you use the word dabbling because it sort of characterizes how I approach creativity. And if you ask me how I got my start it, I often have no answer because I have never until recently, and I'm now 50, I hadn't considered myself an artist in professional terms, until I don't know the last five or so years. I know it sounds late but I think because I have always been motivated by almost being a beginner, and being a little bit out of my element and trying a new medium. It's taken me a long time to realize that is my primary motivation and it is not a singular, you know, painting, drawing, graphic design. I've just followed my curiosity, to a large extent, and that's led me to, every medium from Paper Cutting to Pen and Ink drawing to photography graphic design and it's taken me a while to reconcile myself with that because dabbling is not something that I was brought up to do. I was brought up to focus and to choose and so I never really committed to one type of art or creativity, and that's just the way I am, even though I have tried to commit to one thing or another. So there's been actually no particular start, but where I find myself now is an interesting time that you come to me because I finally had my first solo show of art, and had a business which didn't do so well under my belt, but I feel like an artist and they have not gone back to teaching which is what I did in between doing creative projects. But I had a bit of sort of fallow period at the start of January where I had this great show and everybody said to me, “oh you're going to keep drawing, or your going to keep doing your paintings, you have momentum now you've had sales.” And to be honest, when I sat down with myself I just was not feeling it for those things anymore, and they felt like finite experiences as though I'd written a book and I wasn't going to rewrite that book. So where you find me now is, after a period of frantic creative block, I finally have found some momentum in a project that combines my writing, drawing, and design skills, and it has no particular form, so I'm a little bit insecure about it. But it's it's one of those times where, you know, creative people tell you all the time. “I don't know where this one came from, but it's here and now I'm either going to work with it, or I'm not” and I decided that I want to work with this one. Even though I'm not exactly sure where it's headed. Katty: Okay. You letting the creative process guide you... Anna: Yes, and you know, usually I don't let that happen until I found a medium and sort of played with like “oh my Pen and Ink drawings, here I'm going to learn how to use this medium, and then I'm going to practice with it I'm going to study and I'm going to research.” This one is much more unruly than that, and it's different for me, but I think, I think it's my age where I just kind of say “you know what, creativity, isn't like a horse that you harness.” I don't want to romanticize it because I don't necessarily believe in the muse or whatever, but I do think that there's a reason that creative people talk about muses as being something outside of themselves that decides to visit. This one feels like a combination of a lot of things that I'm interested in, and it's nudging me to put it all together. Katty: Fabulous. Well, you mentioned something early on in the conversation about being a beginner, it kind of made me think of that beginner's mindset, which is filled with curiosity. And, this sounds like that to me. You know, the curiosity of where it's going to go and you're just allowing that flow. Anna: Allowing is a big thing for an artist, right, like for anybody. And I happen to also be a control freak. So it's a...this particular one began with a sudden urge, and curiosity to investigate typography and fonts. It kind of appeared one day, to me, I felt like drawing but I didn't feel like drawing the way I had done abstractly for many years actually in my that resulted in my last show that you saw. But this one I had the urge to make forms, but not people. I don't like to necessarily render objects or trees or things like that. I'm sort of more of an abstract thinker, but I kind of resisted this because I thought, “Well, I'm not a typography designer. I don't know why I want to do this it's unclear, this is weird.” But sometimes it just keeps asserting itself and I think that the only issue I have with beginners energy, it is a wonderful playful, curiosity driven as you said energy. But the problem with people like me is that when you get to the point where it feels a little boring, or you can easily abandon projects. When it's no longer that first blush, of ooh this is exciting, I don't know how to do this, sometimes I've dropped projects that I should have probably just stuck through in some particular way like made it fresh or beginning or added something to it so I'm learning how to play with that. Katty: Okay. Because I remember you saying that when you feel that you're not learning or growing anymore you, maybe you just switch mediums. So how to -- what I'm hearing is trying to figure out a way to harness that and see it through versus switching partially, right? Anna: Yes. I think that what I'm doing right now and we're talking about like two days. Of this realization is that the current project that I'm working on, let's describe it as a combination of trying to use charts and graphs and visualizing the data of my life, and trying to apply almost mathematical chart making skills to things that are very esoteric and abstract and like midlife crisis oriented. So it's very chaotic but I think that what I have decided to do with this project is to conceptualize it as a bunch of different tasks which include, drafting, writing, sketching, doing typography, maybe a little photography and so what I've structured is almost like I'm a person who went to Montessori and in Montessori, they say, rather than following first math then science, kids have a period in which they can choose okay I'm really drawn to this. Right now I'm feeling it, I'm really drawn to this task right now, and so what that allows me to do is from day to day instead of grinding it out and say, I'm going to finish the spread today or this sketch. I really look at it and I say okay where's the energy good today? And maybe sometimes I literally only work on it for 20 minutes, and then I feel a little bit of stuckness or meh, it's not happening, and then I can jump and look at some books that I've bought to help me, inspire me to design a certain way. So that I feel that beginner energy from day to day, and I'm really following my pleasure and my joy and my playfulness rather than employing this part of me that's more grim determination, which is sometimes necessary. You know, we have to use discipline at one time or another but I think for me, that's a buzzkill. I've just considered myself one of those people like “well we have to get through the buzzkill part.” It's kind of like, people who want to go exercise or do something that's not natural to them, and if they don't find a source of pleasure in it, you're not going to continue with that habit. So I'm become a believer in listening to the voice inside that says, “This is what wants to happen this morning or this afternoon”, and I just chunk it out. I just chunk out my tasks rather than thinking about it as some long march to work. Katty: Got it. Because I know you've spoken in the past about really cultivating that creative practice. How does this fit in with that? Is it just as cultivating the creative practice but in shorter bursts, or whenever it happens to strike? Anna: That is a really good question, I think it's the shorter bursts concept and being okay with it. I think that there are many books out there about creativity, or business or whatever and those are all incredibly helpful. But there comes a point at which you need to really personalize and tailor the information that you're taking in about how to work, how to best be creative and, it's very easy to slip into the mode, for me anyway of, “oh, look how so and so is doing it. Look how they got it done. Why am I not doing it that way?” And it's easy to reframe short bursts which I have done as dilettantism, a jack of all trades, master of none, can't finish a project, you know, undisciplined...and at a certain point, you just have to look at the nature of the work and say, “Is this work good? Is it worth continuing? Is the way I'm working in concert with the work as it wants to be made too?” Because not every project is the same either, like writing for me I have to say, does not come as naturally as drawing or sketching and it's not as pleasurable. Katty: You started out your path as a writer. Anna: Yeah, that is true, I would say that my entry point to creativity, in terms of academic studies and my degree was an English major. I learned how to be creative through the written word, but in fact I think that this latest project that I'm working on started out as me wanting to tell some wisdom and stories and anecdotes from my life, but I became impatient with linear thinking and words require linear, you know, first the subject and the verb then the next thing and the descriptor. But what I started doing was, as I was journaling to try to write about these things, it's just sort of naturally happened I'm like I'm just going to try to stretch what I mean. And let me see if I can create an image that conveys the same thing that I'm trying to say, in a way that pleases me is more naturally pleasing to me, which is to say graphically and drawn, and as we all know, that's why road signs are not all written in paragraphs, the image is much more sort of holistically digested. So, what is pleasing to me now is, I'll write almost a caption to the image and then the two are conjoined, and work in concert, almost like you know, the children's book writer will do is, the image has its weigh, the writing has its weight, and they work to inform each other and that has been much more pleasurable to me to write than just straight paragraphs and essays. Katty: Now, is the typography that you're doing is this pen to paper? Is this digital was the medium that you're using there? Anna: I'm a strange person in that I can't seem to make designs on the computer at all. I think that one of my goals in life had been in my 20s to be a graphic designer because it does merge word, and the written word and images. I love that interaction, but I could never make myself enjoy-- It felt almost like I was wearing gloves or there was a glass wall between me and my art, and I really have been drawing all my fonts even if they are, you know, German Gothic black letter thick fonts I really enjoy the process of hand lettering with a pencil, for now. And the pencil keeps me really loose and less worried about outcome. I noticed that when I try to shift right now to pen, or do a finished drawing, it's another buzzkill where it keeps me tight, so I have to work pretty hard to just retain that an original freshness to my to my ideas at this point. Katty: I'd like to see it when you're at that stage to show it. Anna: I think more and more because of Instagram and because of social media, there is, a movement for artists to show their process. I love looking at people's Instagram stories where you track backwards, where the iterative processes of creativity. I love that. I think people are really like using it, I think, artists, when I was in an artist mastermind group we talked about being able to convey the value of our art through price, you know so hard to price your art, but when people understand your story and then it's not just this you know pricing by size and inches but they really see that you've made small sketches or you've done this or thrown this out. People, I think they will buy your story, ultimately. Katty: Yeah, absolutely and it's you know it's an iterative process. If you know i don't think art necessarily is easy to look at a piece of paper or a piece of art and say, “Oh, great.” But, you know, the months or the years that it may have taken to take into that place, and that's just the value of thinking. Anna: Well, yes and I was thinking the other day that the disadvantage that artists have, in some ways is that, I think your average person who doesn't necessarily create a lot, they have this notion that the time it takes for them to consume the art is comparable to the amount of time that it took to produce that art. I watch people stand in front of paintings, and they breeze past and it kind of pains me, you know, not mine even other people's. Like I was at LACMA just watching people breeze past, snap a photograph of themselves in front of a drawing. I don't have a problem with that per se, but I read somewhere I wish I could remember where it was a challenge to stand in front of an artwork for, I don't know 15 minutes, and that's not very long but the, what you encounter, and what you're forced to encounter in 15 minutes in front of one work of art, you realize how much you breeze past, and you don't take it. Katty: That happens for some of the artists that we work with on more commercial work, design work, where, you know, when a client is looking for an estimate,it's really necessary to think about the hours to actually produce the work and forgetting about the hours that it's going to take just to conceptualize it. Anna: Yes, and also on, I mean because I do more fine art, I have done more fine art work. Recently, it is the -- I mean it sounds so esoteric but it's really the courage to kind of put your life story, your life values, something you have to say into that. That is, that's just living. You can't, you can't put a quantity or, qualitative judgment on wisdom that one is gleaned about nature or about, aging, or parenting or whatever that's the poetry and that's what makes it hard to be an artist, because you shouldn't expect that everybody would understand that, and yet if you're trying to make a living doing it and applying your visual talents to a commercial realm, you kind of have to be understanding that people aren't going to be interpreting your work the way that you what you brought to it emotionally. Katty: Yeah, everybody looks at it through their own lens. Anna: That's right. You have to let it go. But the paycheck may not reflect what you put in. Katty: It's true. I knew in your previous  work that I'm familiar with your patterns and your dots and you murmurations nature has been a huge source of inspiration for you. Where is the inspiration coming for the new work that you're doing? Anna: Oh, I'm going to laugh at myself now because I don't even want to tell you, and I'll tell you why because I am sort of -- I'm outing myself now. I'm a secret hoarder of self-help books. And, and I'll tell you, I'll just out myself again like I have them, and they're all facing the spines are all facing the other way underneath my desk, and I don't know why I should be so embarrassed about this but they are so, I mean, some of them have changed my life, right? Like some of the especially the Buddhist, the Buddhist so let's not even call them self help books, but they're very much about inquiry. Yeah, why are we here? What makes a meaningful life? And I have just made that shift in my life, in the last probably the last decade, especially. I have been trying to find a way to, I don't know, express my interest in them and generate something from within me and then interpret that visually for a lot of years. Or not visually at first, but actually through written stuff and it all sounded so, overly earnest, almost cultish, very esoteric, and believe me like I read a lot of this stuff and I love it. But I've been trying to find a way to express it in a way that I feel has some levity and humor and beauty and anecdotal, maybe a little self-deprecation. I am just one of those people who is an over-thinker, I'm philosophical by nature, and I've been trying to find a way to bring it down to earth because I do have a very skeptical cynical side of me too. And so I think that I'm trying to make that kind of important meaningful wisdom, accessible in a visual form. That's my current project. Katty: It's interesting you use the word wisdom because that's the word that was playing around in my head, as you were talking. Whether it's just coming to this, you know, time in your life. But that's the word that's coming to me. Anna: Well, I appreciate that. And I and I will say too, I think some of that wisdom has been a hard one, because of my particular experience growing up as an artistically minded a philosophically minded creative person in a family of Asian immigrant parents.  I'm not trying to stereotype but there is a particular expectation that you be pragmatic about your life and how you make money and what you study. My creativity was amusing to my parents, but it was not, it was not something that they were going to support as a way of living, and so I think, ironically, like, I think my commitment to this project this latest project and to finding wisdom is kind of asserting that you know artists and creative people have a particular path. And particular obstacles that they have to overcome and those coupled with that of immigrant parents who say to you, you know, just go, it's not boring but like just go be a doctor, an engineer and then you can do the stuff on the side. This has been my way of saying, you know what, I've tried that way, it didn't work, and now I really value, I value my creative talents, I value the way that I express them, and I do believe that there's wisdom for me to share, not so much like, “Oh, I know better and I'm going to tell you how to do it”, but I find the most satisfying encounters with my artwork is when people say to me, “I so connect with you about this. I felt alone in this and now I don't.” And I think that to me is why I've turned to the books why turned to certain artworks and I guess my hope has always been that I could provide a piece of art or writing that can make somebody else feel a sense of relief in that regard too. Katty: What would you say to someone who is maybe in this searching mode, early in their career? If some of the books that maybe have really helped you and you mentioned there was a couple that really changed your life. Are there any recommendations that you could share with the audience? Anna: Sure. Well, for me personally and this is a little esoteric but Pema Chodron, any of her books. The ones that I'm thinking right off the top is The Places That Scare You and When Things Fall Apart. It sounds very dire but it's not. She just reset my thinking as many Buddhists will, that we spend so much time segregating what we perceive to be good and bad things that happened to us in life and the times to -- we spent a lot of energy segregating. “I don't want this, I want this. This will be good for my career, this is not. This is great art, this is crappy art that I've made or whatever.” And I think when you get to a certain level of maturity, you start to accept that it's all mixed in, that it's all a portal to wisdom in some way or another if you have the right frame of mind towards it and just certain patience and acceptance. And that doesn't mean rolling over and play dead but it just means don't spend your energy, pushing back, all the things that you think are going to be bad for you because some of the most frustrating things that have happened to me as an artist and creative person have led me to some real breakthroughs and that's just the truth of it. And then there's another book, which is radically different in tone, but kind of soothes the cynic and the hard ass in me, is Steven Pressfield's book, The War of Art. And it is brief, and it's cogent, and he basically in his own way says, “Stop whining don't spend your energy on that all artists are going to encounter obstacles. Get up do the work.” And the way I interpreted his work because it's a little bit harsh is if I had to summarize it for myself and how I metabolized his writing was, every piece of art that you do for me, every drawing is a study for the next drawing, everything. And so, yes there is a time at which you have to say, “Okay, I'm going to make this finished piece of art that I want to sell or that my client wants, or whatever.” But in order to relieve yourself of that stiffness and anxiety and putting too much weight on yourself or the project, you really have to face the truth that every piece you make is your education for the next attempt. It's all an attempt, it's all an experiment and stop thinking about it too hard and just make the thing, and be you know truthful about whether it's worthy of presenting to the world and I would, I don't know, in the last series I did my ink paintings, I would say, was the ratio of the ones I kept to not were one out of twelve. And that's okay, you know like, you can whine about the other eleven, and berate yourself or you can be grateful that you have the time and energy and talent to try to make these twelve, and you got one out of them. Great. That's kind of what I take from his book. Katty: They're building blocks. Right? Yeah, one foot in front of the other.  Well thank you for sharing those and surely thank you for sharing your wisdom. I think that, especially for someone who's starting out, and hasn't necessarily come into their own as they're listening to this podcast I think you're sharing a lot of nuggets of what you've gone through and have come out on the other side and recognizing why you're doing what you're doing, as well, just accepting the process. Anna: Well, I would say too, and this is just something I've been thinking about this week to add to what you're summing up there is. It's all for me about reframing, not as a Pollyanna way but reframing as a creative act in and of itself. So, use your creativity on yourself and that is an act in an of itself, is to reconsider how you work, the methodologies, try things that are new if they don't work.I mean these are all similar to the actual creative acts themselves, but you can apply that same creativity to your own emotional states, your own psychological states. It's all of a piece, nothing is separate. I mean I kind of think of it as like a creative ecosystem where it has to be healthy and sort of balanced for all the elements to work in a healthy way. Katty: It'd be cause and effect in there so, absolutely.Because I know, you know, just in having known you over the years that innovating is very important to you and so it is just beautiful to see how all of that is coming together at this point. Anna: Thank you, I appreciate that because it doesn't always feel like there's a through line. But I guess for creative people the through line is one's actual self. You have to honor that. Katty: Thank you for tuning into this episode of the Artisan podcast. This podcast is brought to you by Artisan Creative, a staffing a recruitment firm specializing in creative, marketing, and digital talents. You can find us online at artisancreative.com or via social channels @artisancreative We look forward to connecting.    

Heirloom KitchenBy Anna Francese Gass Intro: Welcome to the Cookery by the Book Podcast with Suzy Chase. She's just a home cook in New York city, sitting at her dining room table talking to cookbook authors.Anna: Hi, this is Anna Francese Gass and my cookbook is Heirloom Kitchen: Heritage Recipes and Family Stories from the Tables of Immigrant Women.Suzy Chase: I don't think we as Americans acknowledge enough how the cooking traditions of immigrant women have left a legacy on the American palate. Talk a bit about how you've cooked with grandmother around the country to compile this cookbook.Anna: Yeah, I mean, I think it was kind of a aha moment for me as well. I grew up in an Italian home. My mother came over from Italy. I actually was with her. I was one years old, and my mother always cooked the food of her homeland and that's what I grew up eating. I was obviously very aware of American food. I loved "American Food" but in our house it's all those staples from the Italian kitchen because that's what my mother grew up eating. That's what she knew how to cook. What happened when I did the project and when I started it, I realized, but I guess I always ... We all kind of know this unconsciously, we just don't talk or think about it, but immigrants from all over the world that come here do that exact same thing. No one is coming over from China and starting to cook meatloaf and steak. They continue to make their homeland foods, and because these women did that, starting all the way back from when immigrations really began in this country, that's how we created this amazing diverse food landscape that we call American food.Anna: I mean, if you think about meatballs, okay yes, their origin is Italian and that's where the women learned how to make them, but when you go out and you have spaghetti and meatballs, I mean you can have that at almost any restaurant. I think spaghetti and meatballs is as American as apple pie, so to speak, but the reason that is, the reason we've accepted these things into our culture is because nobody stopped making those foods the minute they came over here into the US.Suzy Chase: So let's move on to the women who immigrated to the United States that are in this cookbook. What was the process of getting introductions to these 45 women?Anna: So what happened was so nice, is that it really spread word of mouth. The way the whole project started was I just wanted to get my mom's recipes written down. I'm a recipe tester by trade. That's what I do for my living. I do it primarily out of my home and I love my job, but I realized I didn't have any of my mom's recipes written down, none of those were standardized and I really wanted to cherish and keep those recipes forever. My mom still cooks when we go over on Sunday, so there was never that need to learn, but then I realized that there's gonna be a day that my daughter wants to know how to learn ... Excuse me. Wants to know how to make those recipes, or her daughter, and you know, my mother isn't always gonna be able to cook them. So we started as a project, a family project, and I created a family cookbook, and then I had a moment that I thought, "Wow. I have all these friends from all over the world, many first generation kids. This is a service I could provide. This would be a fun blog. This is something I could do as a hobby." So this all started out with just a blog.Anna: So I sent an email to literally every friend I had with a first generation background, and the response was overwhelming. Everyone said, "Oh my goodness. I want you to cook with my mom. I want these recipes recorded." It was like a service I was providing. I was getting to learn all these authentic homeland foods, and they were getting recorded recipes. Then they were all gonna go up on the blog so I could share them. Once the project started and my blog really took off, then word of mouth created the next opportunity. So I was cooking with Iraqi woman for example, and she said to me halfway through cooking, "You really need to cook with my friend [Sheri 00:04:19]. She's Persian. She makes the most amazing Tahdig. You need to know how to make that." She made that introduction, and so on and so forth. So it started with friends and then, like the last couple of women I cooked with, I didn't even know the children. It was just that word of mouth.Suzy Chase: It's so funny, I was gonna ask you if these recipes were hard to get, but it just seems like it was just effortless and it just happened.Anna: It just happened, and you know, it's so funny because people will say, "Oh, grandma's secrets." Or, "My grandma would always tell people the wrong ingredients or the wrong measurements because she didn't want anyone to make it just like her." Or, "This was secret." I didn't encounter that once. It was, "Let me share this with you, I want you to get it perfect. We can make it again." I mean, there were times that I had to follow up, because I'm in there with a pad and paper scribbling as they're throwing things in the pot, and then when I went home and recipe tested it, it's like, "Wait a minute. Was it, did this go first? Did that go first?" So sometime I'd call and say, "I just want to make sure I'm getting this right." And everyone was more than willing to just sit on the phone with me to make sure it was absolutely perfect, and these women were with me during the cookbook process too, because then a recipe tester has a question, or a copy editor has a question, and I don't know if it was luck, but I came across the most generous women I could've ever encountered.Suzy Chase: What's one new tip that you learned from a grandma you met along the way? Maybe a life tip or a cooking tip.Anna: Wow, there's a lot. I feel like I learned so much in each kitchen. I learned first of all, I should probably take a step back. Once I went to the first home, it was a Greek woman Nelly in Long Island. We start making her pastitsio, her Greek dishes, and just by accident I said, "Hey Nelly, why did you come to the US?" And she just started telling me her immigration story, and while she was telling me this story, I'm thinking about how it's similar to my mom, or different, but the threads are the same, and I thought to myself, "This is just as important as the recipe, because why she came here and how this all came about is so important to just our historical oral knowledge of all these women." So I started writing down immigration questions before I went to the next appointment, because I wanted to know exactly why each women came here, and the stories were dynamic, and incredible, and inspiring, and that ended up going up on the blog too.Anna: Just the fact, if you think about when you go on a trip today, right? You go on trip advisor, you ask you mom friends, you do all these different things before you head out, so that when you show up at your location destination, you're an expert. These women didn't have that. There was no world wide web, there was no cellphone, pictures or whatever. They just packed their bags and went. One of the women said to me, because [inaudible 00:07:31], "What made you do it? What made you get up one day and say, 'You know what? I'm leaving everything I know. I'm leaving my family, I'm leaving my friends and I'm going to this mysterious place to start a new life.'" And she said, "You know, what people from the US don't realize is the US is so enchanting. When you're not from here and you think about The United States Of America, there's a dream there. There's a dream to be had." And I just found that so special, and I think as Americans it's something that we should embrace and understand that we're so lucky to be here, and it's why other people want to come.Anna: So just that tenacity, that courage, I just found so inspiring.Suzy Chase: So in Heirloom Kitchen, it's organized with the recipe, a story, and a lesson. Talk a little bit about that.Anna: When I went in and I was pitching cookbooks to all the different editors at all the different publishers, that was very important to me. I said, "I understand I'm sitting here. I am proposing a cookbook to you, but I think the only way that this is really gonna work and is really gonna be as special as I want it to be is if we also share the women's immigration story, because I think that's half the story." I'll tell you, when I'm making the recipes, I think about the women and I think about their story. I learned a whole bunch of different cooking techniques, for example the Palestinian women taught me how to make Maqluba, and Maqluba means, in Arabic means upside down. So it's this rice dish that you make in a pot and then at the end, when it's all done, you literally flip it upside down and you take it out of the pot and you're left with this mold, and I will tell you, I made a couple of that, did not work, but phone calls back and forth, I figured out how to do it and it's so satisfying when you turn this pot upside down and this beautiful, delicious, rice dish comes out.Anna: So I just think that the book is what it is because you are getting the lessons and the stories, and the recipe all broken down for you, and obviously categorized by continent.Suzy Chase: Your mother is in this cookbook. I found it interesting that she wanted nothing to do with pre-packaged frozen dinners that were the rage when we were growing up, and they were supposed to make our mom's lives easier.Anna: Yeah. I have the chicken pot pie story in there because I think it's quintessential immigrant mother lure. I think that it's very funny and I think that a lot of people will also really relate to it. Yes, I mean, when we were kids all I wanted was a Marie Callender's chicken pot pie. I watched the commercial, it looked so delicious, and why did I have to eat this Italian food every night when I all wanted was this chicken pot pie? So she relented and bought it, and cooked it incorrectly because she didn't read the directions. She just kinda threw it in the oven and that was the end of our chicken pot pie, but I think for my mother, and especially, it's hard to make generalization, but for at least the women that cooked with, the immigrant women that I cooked with, is they value the food that they create so much that the pre-packaged ready in five minute meals, what you were saving in time, it wasn't enough.Anna: It wasn't enough for them to say, "Okay, you know what? Forget my stuff, I'm just gonna do this." And it's funny, the women from Ghana told me that there were times her daughter would say to her, "Mom, we want to take you out to eat tonight. Let's just go out. We don't want you to cook. Let's just relax." And her mom's like, "No. I'd much rather eat my food. I don't need restaurant food." And I laughed when she told me that 'cause my mom doesn't like going out to eat either.Suzy Chase: Really?Anna: So funny. I think it's a common thread because there's so much pride in what they're creating, and it does keep them tethered to their homeland, which is still so very special to them. The cover of the book is my mom making Tagliatelle, which is a hand-cut Italian pasta, and I watched my grandmother make them, and obviously my mom grew up watching her mother make them, and when my mom makes Tagliatelle, we think about my grandmother who is obviously now past, but it's just so nice to have that memory and eat food that tastes exactly like how my grandmother used to make it.Suzy Chase: The story that you told about your mom really shows that she viewed her new American identity as an extension of her Italian identity.Anna: Yes. Absolutely. I think when they came here, these women, right? They were very brave, and they learned English, and I talk about my mom getting her citizenship and going to ESL classes to become an American. That's very important to them and they're proud to be American, but they also needed to create kind of like a safe haven. You go out in the world, you have an accent, you're an immigrant, everyone knows that, so when you come home at night, what's gonna make you feel safe? What's gonna make you feel comfortable? It's your food. The minute you start cooking and the meatballs are bubbling, or you have the rice cooking, or whatever it is that you made back in the homeland that you're now making here, food transports you. I can get transported to the past just as much as it gives you energy to catapult you into the future.Suzy Chase: I think my very favorite photo is on the inside page of the cookbook. It's the one of the hands forming either ravioli or some sort of dumpling. It's fascinating how you're drawn, how I was drawn, to this woman in the photo. Is that your mom?Anna: No. So that is Tina, and she is making traditional Chinese dumplings, and she makes everything from scratch and then she just sits there and pleats all these dumplings and they all look exactly the same and they're perfect. What I love about ... But first of all, my photographer Andrew Scrivani was just a genius. He is a genius and he does a lot of work for The Times, and it's because he's so wildly talented, but his whole thing was, "I want to see hands." This is food that you make with your hands. Nobody pulled out a food processor, nobody used their Kitchenaid. It was rolling pins, hands, mixing spoons. I had women using mixing spoons that they literally brought over from their country. They hold up a spoon and say, "This spoon is 45 years old." But that's the food of our grandmothers, right? They didn't have all these gadgets. They weren't sous vide, they weren't hot pot. So that was very important in the cookbook, to have a lot of hands, and I'm so happy that you were drawn to that photo because it is so tangible, right? Like you feel like you're standing right next to her while she's pleating these dumplings.Anna: She told me that, so they make Chinese dumplings every New Year, and what I love about this story is, she said that the women would get up, and they make the filling, and they make hundreds of them. So all the women in the neighborhood would come together and sit down and while they're pleating the dumplings, they gossip. So it'd just be a totally gossip day making [crosstalk 00:15:14] for dinner.Suzy Chase: I love it. On Saturday I made the recipe for tomato sauce with meatballs on page 25. Was this your grandmother's recipe?Anna: Yes. To be honest with you, it was probably my great-grandmother's recipe. My mother also spent a lot of time with her maternal and paternal grandmothers, and they all had the same techniques to make all these different dishes. So yes, the Brodo di Mama, which is mom's tomato sauce, and the Polpette, which is meatballs, come from a very long line of women. My grandmother did a couple things that were different. One, as you know, she uses some of the sauce in the meatball mixture, which we feel makes them very tender, and there's no pre-frying or pre-baking, which I know a lot of people do. These meatballs just get simmered right in the sauce, which not only does it eliminate a step, once again, we think it makes a very light and airy meatball.Suzy Chase: At the very beginning of this recipe you steep garlic, basil and olive oil. I feel like this is like the magical secret ingredient to this dish.Anna: Yes. By creating, and almost kind of liking it to a T, because you're infusing this olive oil at a very low temperature to kind of marry all of those delicious ingredients, so that once you ultimately strain the garlic and the basil out, you're left with a very aromatic olive oil, which is the base of the sauce. Now, my grandmother was obviously a trend setter in her day because now you can buy so many infused olive oils.Suzy Chase: What do you tell people who see a recipe, or who will see a recipe in this cookbook, and think, "That's not how my mother makes it."Anna: Oh, I'm so glad that you asked that question, and actually, if you read the very beginning of the book, I do address that because I think we play a lot nowadays with the word authentic, I know you probably hear that word all the time.Suzy Chase: All the time.Anna: And you know, what really is authentic? How could we really put our finger on that, right? So what I'm saying is these are my mom's meatballs. She's from Calabria, it's very similar to the way in her mom's village probably made them, but you know when you get in the kitchen, that's your recipe, and you might, your husband might not like garlic, or your son doesn't like the pinch of hot pepper flakes so you eliminate that. So I think, what I would love this book to do for people is kind of like the way I look at any cookbook or even food magazine, is use it as a jumping off point. Let it stimulate in you those memories of your grandmother. So let's say for example you're Greek and you buy this cookbook because you want to know how to make Spanakopita, and then when you get to it you said, "Wait a minute, my grandmother didn't use cottage cheese, she used ricotta." Or whatever it is, but it gets those creative juices flowing, it gets those memories flowing, and that's what I really want this to do.Anna: I do want you to try the recipes in the book. They are phenomenal, they are delicious, they're grandma's greatest hits, because everyone gave me theirs best dishes, but don't fret if it's not just like your grandmother, because your grandmother was special and she made things her way, just like these grandmothers made it their way and hopefully it just creates a new, that nostalgia for the homeland foods.Suzy Chase: Grandma's greatest hits. I love that. I think the main sentiment in this cookbook is maintaining the culture of our origin countries was not a statement, it simply created the comfort of home in a new place. I think we all deserve the comfort of home.Anna: Absolutely, and I think whether you're cooking a recipe from Poland, or literally you're just making your kids some brownies after school, I think that that's what food does for us. Food is the one thing that we all had in common. No matter who you are, how important, everyone has to eat, right? So it's this common thread amongst every single person on the planet, and it does provide comfort. When you're hungry, all you want to do, all you think about is what you're gonna eat. I know for my kids, the things that I make that they feel are very special, or when I'm eating something in mom's house in a Sunday that she made when I was a little kid and I can think about those days. It's why I think the term comfort food was created, right? Because food provides comfort.Suzy Chase: Now to my segment called my last meal. What would you eat for your last supper?Anna: I think going on what I just said, I think my last meal would have to be something that my mom cooks for me, because when I'm eating something that my mom made, I know that that bowl of food is not only just filled with nutrients and everything I need physically, there is so much there emotionally for me, and it's filled with her love and her care, and everything that she wants me to have. One of the women that I cooked with said, "A mother is full when the children have eaten." And I think about that every day because I think that's the most important gift our mother give us, is nourishment and the memories of our childhood through food.Suzy Chase: Where can we find you on the web and social media?Anna: My website is annasheirloomkitchen.com and I'm very active also on Instagram, and I'm at @annafgass. So at A-N-N-A, F as in Frank, G-A, S as in Sam, S as in Sam.Suzy Chase: Heirloom Kitchens shows us that America truly is the land of opportunity. Thanks Anna for coming on Cookery by the Book Podcast.Anna: Thanks Suzy. This was great.Outro: Follow Suzy Chase on Instagram @cookerybythebook, and subscribe at cookerybythebook.com or in Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening to Cookery by the Book Podcast, the only podcast devoted to cookbooks since 2015.

Are you an HSP? An empath? Just feeling overwhelmed and like you're "doing life bad"? You're going to love this interview with Anna Holden. Anna Holden is a professional intuitive, energy healer and spiritual teacher. She mentors burgeoning psychics and healers in her professional training program, The School for Sacred Rebellion. She also runs The Refuge for Sacred Rebellion, a spiritual enlivenment platform for highly sensitive people, and she hosts The Soul of Sensitivity podcast, a show that explores the intersection of sensitivity and spirituality. WE TALK ABOUT: clairsentience and empathy highly sensitive people as an indicator species reclaiming the sacred self This is not your run of the mill conversation about being a psychic sponge and carrying the weight of the world around with you and being burdened with everyone’s ugly shit. Anna refers to herself as a "sensitive revolutionary" ... and she has a whole different empowering angle on this topic. MENTIONED ON THE SHOW Anatomy of the Spirit by Caroline Myss Heidi Frank Palmer https://subtlebodysolutions.com/ GUEST LINKS - Anna Holden sensitivityuncensored.com Soul of Sensitivity podcast Anna's Free Guide You Are a Goddamn Magical Unicorn The Refuge for Sacred Rebellion The School for Sacred Rebellion HOST LINKS - SLADE ROBERSON Slade's Books & Courses Get an intuitive reading with Slade Automatic Intuition BECOME A PATRON https://www.patreon.com/shiftyourspirits Edit your pledge on Patreon TRANSCRIPT Anna: I'm Anna and I work with people who are highly sensitive, empathic, intuitive, and usually these people find me because they're overwhelmed. So I work specifically with people who are highly sensitive to help them develop their intuitive channels and strengthen their sense of sensitivity so it's not overwhelming them, and that they're able to work with it. I see that, I mean, I really see sensitivity and being an empath as a really huge gift that we're not given any tools around, any sort of know-how around, so I kind of create a structure and a language to be able to work with those things. And I do that one-on-one, I do that in my membership group, and I do that in different courses and an intuitive school that I'm working on. Slade: Very cool. I want to come back a little bit and talk sort of about your manifesto, and the whole thing about sensitivity in particular how you kind of relate that to everything. That's something I want to dive in a little bit deeper on. One of the things I'm interested in - I've been asking a lot of people this, so I'm going to ask you - when you meet someone for the first time in real life and they ask you what you do, what do you say? Anna: Oh Jesus. You know, it really - it's funny, because I listened to the episode that you're referencing and I'm like, 'I'm taking notes', because this is something that I still struggle with, you know? It really depends. Sometimes I tell people I'm an intuitive. If I feel pretty comfortable with people I'll tell them I'm an intuitive. If it's somebody who is just totally out of this realm, I'll call it, sometimes I'll say that I have a healing arts practice. Sometimes I will say that I work with people who are highly sensitive to help them manage overwhelm. Those are usually the three places I will go, but I find it, I really find it a struggle. And for me, it's the sense of, how much do I - or it's kind of this battle between how much can I own about what I do and how much is actually going to get in and how much is safe in this situation? Slade: Yeah, well, and you know what? Also, some people ask that question very politely with the expectation that they're probably going to get a boring answer. Anna: Mmhmm! Slade: You know, like, 'I work as a clerk in a shipping department', or whatever. And sometimes people, just to be polite, might ask a bit of follow-up questions, but most people, myself included, when I ask somebody what they do, they may tell me and I'm like, 'Oh, okay, cool!' And I just kind of gloss over it and move on with the conversation. So I think that we feel especially under-the-gun about our identity in some way that we're projecting onto the situation a little bit. But I do, you know, I live in the Bible belt, so I don't walk around calling myself a psychic to every stranger that I meet. But I will say that I have learned, over time, more and more, how many people DO get me, and DO like what I do, and sometimes I'm pre-judging them and thinking, 'Oh, they're probably super conservative and traditional, and this would wig them out.' And then I find out later that they're not at all. And then I feel like as ass for, you know... being weird about it. Anna: Oh, I so resonate with that! Because sometimes, I've said this before, particularly in the early parts of my practice, where I was like, I feel like the witch on the edge of town that everybody goes to but nobody talks about. Slade: Yes! Anna: Where it's like, sometimes yeah, I'll tell people I'm a psychic and they'll come up to me later on and be like, 'I really want to know more. I just feel really drawn to knowing more.' And it's always kind of funny when that happens, that there is an opening. Oftentimes people are really searching for this, and particularly people who are more conservative often are really, you know, looking for some of this and when - we can create an opening for curiosity, I suppose. Slade: Well and another weird full-circle thing that I've discovered is that sometimes people of religious faith, even though I think, 'Oh, they're really traditional in their faith', people of faith generally are more open to conversations about faith. They're more open to the subject matter of supernatural phenomenon. They believe in angels and guides and archetypes and deities and all this kind of stuff actually. So sometimes they're weirdly open minded about the metaphysical part of it, almost a part that the intellectual crowd would dismiss us for. Sometimes the little old ladies who go to church every day, they're the mystical one. They're totally like down-low witches, you know what I mean? Anna: Totally! Yeah, you know, the way that I relate that is, so I grew up in Utah in Mormon country and my - I was not raised Mormon, but my mom's family is very Mormon. I think she's the only of her eight other siblings that left the Mormon church. So when we go to family reunions, there's always been this like, you know, we kind of get very reserved and we stop cussing. There's just not a lot, besides traffic and weather, that we talk about. But I was really surprised in that - and I feel kind of bad that I was surprised, like not putting as much, kind of faith in these cousins, particularly a couple of women that I grew up with, where we had this fantastic conversation about sensitivity and energy and different energy tools to help her sensitive kids and she was so open to all that, and a very, very devout, religious person. And I realized, wow, that is MY prejudice. That was ME getting in the way of what turned out to be this really beautiful exchange. Slade: Yeah, that's very cool. So obviously you didn't always identify as a professional intutiive or as a psychic new age person, so how did you become one? Anna: Oh gosh, yeah. What's kind of interesting is that I was a scientist first. I have a Bachelors degree and a Masters degree, Slade, in science. In conservation science and environmental science and really, I kind of chalk that up to I'm-really-interested-in-nature. I'm really... I find so many answers in nature and I realized recently - not recently but I've realized over the years that I really have an intuitive, you know, I have intuitive telepathic conversations when I'm in nature. That was kind of the place that I lived - in this very analytical, very scientific place. But on the other side of that, I was always seeking, and, you know, growing up in Utah as a non-Mormon, where everybody (I did a whole podcast on this) everybody that I was around. The town that I was in was a huge percentage Mormon, I think, in the '80s, 80% Mormon. So pretty much all the people that I went to school with had this really strong sense of relationship with God that included a lot of rules and books and, just things I didn't have, but I was really interested in having a relationship with something higher because I saw spirits and animal spirits and all kinds of things. And so, in my early twenties, I started exploring that kind of on the side. I started - well, after I went to college, I started studying. I studied some reiki, I studied qigong, I read the Tao Te Ching, I dabbled in Buddhism, just trying to find a sense of connection and along the way, when I was Colorado (I had taken a year off of school to follow a guy, ahem) I met this great community of intuitives like, the first psychics that I've ever met, and had really ground-breaking, earth-shaking experiences of validation, of really feeling seen for the first time in my life. And it gave in me a sense of direction that I had never really had before. So, over the years, I continued dabbling in meditation and different energy healing arts and it was funny because I think at that time in my early twenties, I read my first Caroline Myss book, the Anatomy of the Spirit, and I was like, 'Ohmygosh. This is so cool. I totally want to do this.' But thinking that it was really out of reach, you know, believing that it's something you're born with or you're not and... Eventually, in my mid-twenties, I asked the main intuitive that I worked with, 'Hey, do you think I could do this?' And she just, she kind of laughed, you know? She was like, 'Ohmygosh, Anna. Of course you can do this!' And so I just started taking some basic energy management meditation classes and then eventually decided to join a full clairvoyant training program. And clairvoyant, I mean, clairvoyance, you've said this on your podcast, where it's like clairvoyance is the only thing people are teaching which I totally agree with that. And for me, it was really helpful because I am very clairsentient, in a way that's actually kind of damaging and hard on my body. So learning to be clairvoyant was really helpful, and I actually then didn't right go out into the world and get readings, or to give readings rather. I had to, I kind of was very type-A, I had to get all the certifications first and studied yoga and ayurveda and stuff. That's the general story. I then eventually, when I moved to Seattle about six years ago, I was going to set up as an ayurvedic practitioner and the laws in Washington are a lot stricter than where they were when I was living in California. I was like, Crap! I can't set up as an ayurvedic practitioner. Well, I guess i'll just give readings then. So I feel like I kind of fell into being a professional psychic but that was definitely the place where I was supposed to be. Slade: Mmm... By the way, your website is called SensitivityUncensored.com, if anybody's listening and they want to kind of look at you and check out your site while we're talking, because there's so much about the personality. The imagery on your site, the language on your site, that really drew me in. And seeing some of that, I immediately connected with you and couldn't help but feel that you must've been motivated to create something in a response to all that goody-goody that's out there that I sort of feel like I try to respond to as well. So I was wondering, what motivated, just kind of the vibe of your site and the concept? Anna: Yeah, oh that's great. That's part of the reason why I was drawn to you, Slade, it was the less hearts and flowers. So I was like, 'Oh, thank God.' Someone else, you know? Slade: Yeah! Anna: Well there's a couple things. First actually, was that I recognized that the clients, the highly sensitive clients I was attracting, one of the real challenges they had was this real sense of seriousness, that everything was so serious. And, like you know what happens when we get serious all the time. Our energy shuts off. It stops flowing, you know? So part - so they learned, working with me, that we're not going to be super serious. We're going to go through important, difficult stuff and we're not going to do that in a life or death, with a life or death energy, you know? We're going to go through a little bit more lighthearted so that we can stay just above and work with what's there. So that was the first thing. The second reason is that I had, before that, kind of pigeon-holed myself with my previous website as like, the perfect healer. I think you know what I'm talking about. It was really annoying, Slade, my website. And I think about it now, I cringe. It's like when you are in the year 2000 with a 1981 haircut. You're like, 'Oh, that should have been updated.' So I had felt like I had created this pressure for myself to show up perfectly, which is like, I'm nowhere near perfect, and it just wasn't the vibe that I actually worked from. So the website was a bit of a 'coming out' in a way for me, being like, 'Hey, yeah i'm a healer and I do things really, really differently.' And then kind of the third thing is, I have avoided for years calling myself psychic because I don't tend to like a lot a lot of the psychic community, kind of that new-age vibe because it's like the Law of Attraction and that's all that exists. Which, like, I just want to vomit a little with that, and I see a lot of clients getting really hung up on some of these new age principles that have been spun really poorly, taught really poorly, kind of from a, I like to call it, Puritanical way, where it's like, 'I did everything right. Why isn't the Universe giving me what I want?' And i'm like, okay well we just kind of - that's not how it works! Slade: There's a kind of fundamentalism that has crept in to it all. Anna: Exactly! Yeah! Slade: Yeah. I totally know - well, I have to say, in keeping with kind of lightness and the vibe of your site when people first land on it, they'll know what I'm talking about. You have to go check this out because I honestly kind of felt like, and I don't mean this to sound in any way like you're smaller than me or less mature, something like that, but I felt like you were like my little sister who I thought of as being like an elementary school kid who suddenly got really cool and turned punk rock over the summer, and I was like, 'Wait a minute!' And I looked at you and I was like, 'Oh wait, she's cooler than me!" And it felt like something I did respond to, you're right. The less hearts and flowers thing. But you had it dialed up in a way that was particularly feminine, I think, but in a badass kind of way, you know, like a babydoll punk kind of vibe. There's something kind of retro '90s grunge about it. I don't know how to put words on it but it was really refreshing and exciting to me to see that, and I do think that you're in a safe space, talking to this group of people who follow me or listen to this podcast. They will totally get you and they will appreciate it and they will laugh in all the right places and be excited. Anna: Right, right. Slade: But you have this manifesto and again, the language that you use, everything is very, kind of, cool and grounded and kind of in your face in a good way that kind of wakes you up. But it's not trying too hard. It feels very natural. It feels, like you said, you came out of some pristine kind of shell that you were trying to be in, and sort of let it all out and, you know what it is? It's like a cool, it's like a cool hair cut. You know, like when you cut all your hair off and you dye it blonde, which I know that you recently did. Anna: Yes! Hahaha... Slade: It's like your site kind of feels like the spiritual 'coming out' version of that. Like, I'm going to go into the bathroom and I'm gonna shave my head and then I'm gonna come out and be like, raccoon eyeliner watch out. Anna: Yeah. Slade: But having said all that, that definitely is like a, WHAT? You know, like it made me stop in my tracks and want to come in. But then when I started to read your actual manifesto, kind of your About page, about where you're coming from and everything, there's some real depth and philosophical originality going on here. So, I want you to kind of talk to me about this concept of Sacred Rebellion, and it's clear from your domain name, Sensitivity Uncensored, that there's this relationship between highly sensitive people and then this concept of rebellion. Explain all that to us. What is that manifesto? Anna: Yeah, absolutely. So I, you know that when I wrote the manifesto, I mean, that comes straight from inside. I feel every word of that manifesto. It wasn't something, when I created my website, that I was like, and then I will have a manifesto! It was like, one day I was like, I have a manifesto! And it must be written! And... I think this is actually where my science background comes in, because something that I observe about the people I work with, people who are sensitive, who are empathic, who are intuitive, we have so many answers for the problems that are plaguing the world. I mean, we are like, I liken this in science to the indicator species, you know? A way you could say that more commonly is, the canary in the coal mine. We can, we feel what's happening. We have a knowingness about what's happening when we're clear. Sometimes we see, we hear, and we receive tremendous amounts of guidance. I really believe that there's a critical place for sensitive, empathic, intuitive people on the planet, and that we currently have a culture that is not set up to recognize our gifts. Nobody is going to step aside for that to happen right? That has to come from us claiming our space, finding our power and our place, wherever we want that to be. I'm not saying we all need to get on the front lines and be social justice warriors or something, you know? But coming into our power and having enough personal sovereignty to do our thing in the world. No matter if that's, you know, being a professional psychic or being a really good interior designer, or an artist that just moves people. I just feel like it's so important. And so, the Sacred Rebellion is that claiming. The Sacred Rebellion has two parts. First, it's about personal practices and personal tools that help us come to a place of spiritual and personal sovereignty, where we are much more able to clearly able to discern between what is our STUFF to deal with and what is the stuff of someone else or the world. Basically being able to discern between energies, right? So that we can do US. That's the first part of Sacred Rebellion. It's a re-claiming, a claiming, remembering. The second part, and I think this is so critical, is the 'so that'. We do that work - SO THAT - we can be in this greater world, earth, doing our part, for humanity, the earth, consciousness, whatever. So, and you pointed this out, so much of my work is really grounded because I believe it has to be. If we really want to change the situation of the planet and really help, you know, human consciousness raise up or, however you want to, however you want to talk about that goal. So, again, the Sacred Rebellion is about doing those two things and doing them in community with other highly sensitive, empathic, intuitive people. I mean, I think I've heard you said, Slade, sorry, you had said, Slade, that, you know, we're spread out, as intuitives. You have that theory we're not all bunched together, and how isolating that is. Slade: Mmhmm. Anna: And I'm like, 'Okay! Let's group up!' Like, we need community, so that's where my Refuge for Sacred Rebellion is that place where we come together and do this. Slade: Yeah, talk about, a little bit about this. It's kind of a program, right? Or it's, I mean, it's a community. You explain what it is, the Refuge for Sacred Rebellion. Anna: Yeah. The Refuge for Sacred Rebellion - it's a membership group. It's a place for highly sensitive, or sensitive souls, empaths, intuitives, others, people who have felt 'othered', to come into community with other highly sensitive empathic psychic others. And I co-lead this with a woman named Heidi Frank Palmer, and she was a long-term client/student of mine who's right up with me, and we are co-leading the space. What we, our goals for this space is, are to create a real sense of community. To provide ample opportunity for us to get to know each other, to share what's happening for us daily and where we're at in our stories. We do this through a Facebook group. We also have monthly discussion calls about different subjects that are either guided by us or guided by other members. Basically the things that creative people struggle with. Like, we break it down. We have what we call 'office hours', kind of stealing something from my college professors, where we kind of hang out online, and if you want to, you can come and ask us questions and get advice as part of the group. And then, twice a year, I teach the Fundamental Tools for my School for Sacred Rebellion and intuitive development Program, and this was, these are a set of tools that I created and originally was calling, 'Sensitive Self-Defense'. It's like spiritual hygiene for sensitives. It's a bunch of meditation tools that really help us take those first steps to getting spiritually sovereign. I used to sell this course for so much money and whatever, and now it's just like, you're in the Refuge, you'll get these tools. Twice a year, we go through it together. You can join us. You can not join us. They're available within the membership area of the website so you can refresh, or work through, at your own pace. Basically we are trying to create a place where you can come, you know, come together and go through this experience of being a sensitive, creative, intuitive soul on this planet at this time. Slade: Hmm, okay. I was hoping that you would have some advice for sensitive people. You kind of touched on that idea of the first thing that you need to do, that kind of sensitive self-defense, and I encounter people who refer to themselves as HSP, Highly Sensitive People, empaths. One of the first things that I teach everyone who comes into my intuitive training is a different kind of shielding technique that's not just a, you know, wall of white light and bleach. It's like, it's too much, you know. I always tell people there's a difference between a blindfold and sunglasses. Anna: Yes, yes! Slade: So what are some tips you have for someone - because the thing about people who are empathic and highly sensitive is, they're the most likely to be shut down. They're the most likely to have walls. They're the most likely to be like, so withdrawn within themselves that they're not seeking, they're not reaching for this stuff like some of us are. So when you encounter one of those people, and you're kind of triaging that highly sensitive empath, and you need to give them a pair of sunglasses instead of a blindfold, what do you advise? What's the first thing to do? Anna: Such a great question. So, the thing that I notice about these people, I mean, this is everyone I work with, is that, I mean, rightly so, they're inside themselves, right? Because the world is fucking harsh. So I just see no judgment in that. They've been doing what they learned to do to protect themselves, you know? Good job. Now it's not working so let's do something else, right? So, what I notice is that HSP, what they do is they eject. Like, their aura usually, not always, but usually the first thing I see clairvoyantly when a HSP comes at me is, they're not in their body. Slade: Mmm... Anna: Because their body is painful. It's too painful to be in their body. It's scary. It's over-whelming. There's so much sensation, you know? So they're just like, I'm ejecting into the spiritual, the theoretical space that is so much easier for me to be in. So before I actually offer sunglasses, and I used to do this, Slade, I used to just offer protection first, and it didn't work for HSP. Slade: Okay. Anna: Because for them, what I find, is they've got to get grounded first. Slade: Okay. Anna: They HAVE to be in their body. So that stuff actually, the first thing that I give them is, I teach them how to create a really dynamically solid grounding cord I'll call it. So it's not like you're stuck to your chair, you know, but it's a way to plug in and to really fill up the space of your body. And then after that, I offer actually a little bit of like, I call it 'turning on the tap', how do you then get nourished with air and water, now that you're in your body, and then I give protection. Because I think about it like, I think about protection kind of like the alarm system of a house. Right? And say this alarm system works like, will only protect if you and all your shit is in your house. You know what I mean? If they're not in their bodies, then what's the alarm system doing, you know? Slade: Mmm... Anna: That's kind of what I, that's how I explain it at least. And this is just came from me working with THIS population for so long, that I was like, Why isn't a protection working? Oh. Because they're not there. Slade: I had an image come to me while you were speaking. I'm just going to share it, that for me, I had this kind of fitness image come in, which was the idea that without core strength, you're not really in a position to work a bunch of kung fu and martial arts, you know what I mean? Anna: Haha.. Totally! Slade: You can't throw a punch if you don't have a strong core. You can't spin around and kick someone in the face if you don't have balance, you know what I mean? You can't put all these muscles on top of something that doesn't have a centre. Which I think, in general, is a lot of what, when people call themselves spiritual seekers or they're working on all these tools and all this stuff, I often find that they're orbiting the body... Anna: Yes! Slade: ...playing with all this stuff that's kind of like in the upper chakras and you've heard me talk about this and the whole idea of re-booting, re-grounding energy and working back up again if you feel like you're frazzled or fried or whatever. But that's coming to me as a part of this picture of what you're describing, like, it doesn't make sense for you... like, you gotta be in your body first before you can manage the kind of shell of energy. Anna: Well, absolutely. I mean, for most HSP, this is our natural tendency, to take up space in the upper chakras at kind of the expense of the lower. And this, then, just generally makes us feel like we do life bad. Slade: Yes! Anna: You know? Most people who are not sensitive and empathic, you know, no judgment on that, but they naturally tend to just hang out in their lower chakras, so it's like, easy to get a job, and kind of easy to make money and they're not too worried about what their Spirit's doing, you know? It's just like, it's basic. And then, HSP we're all up in our upper chakras going like, why can't I get a job that I like? Like, why... Slade: Yes... Anna: Why is this... And it's like, Yeah! There's a gift about occupying those upper chakras. And, you do have a body. And, you don't have to occupy those lower chakras in the same way that everyone else does. So let's find a way to occupy them that, you know, really resonates and validates who you are as a Spirit. Slade: Yeah, it's like your Wifi isn't going to work if the little box isn't plugged in to the wall. Anna: Yes! I love that - that's totally it. Yes. Slade: Yeah, and the thing is, is like, when I talk about people doing that, and I do talk about it because I see it in clients and I see it in myself. There's been this ongoing theme this year where I keep returning to real basic stuff about the body and wellness, and nutrition, and simple fitness. And the thing is, is I don't think that any of that stuff has to be complicated. I think, actually, everyone's impulse is to over-complicate it by a bunch of outfits and special shoes and like, go for a marathon and, I mean it's good to have goals and stuff but I think that if you are sort of working in all those upper chakras and they're not working right for some reason, like you said, I feel like I'm doing this wrong, then look at really simple grounding. Do you walk around outside? Anna: Yes! Slade: Do you feel sunlight on your eyelids? That creates a vitamin in your body, you know? And getting back to your, sort of, I want to say it's kind of neo-pagan, in a way, like the way that you connect from your science background in conservation and ecology back to the sort of you know, earth as life force as a living entity, all that kind of stuff. So there's that connection to it as well, and that's really simple, basic, animal, like you said, lower chakra kind of stuff to work on. And we're all guilty of it. Anna: Oh, yeah. Slade: I mean, I spend most of my time trying to climb up in my third eye and balance on my divine crown all day long and, you know, all this kind of stuff and, you know, everything from the heart chakra up is like getting all this attention and it was a real life-changer for me when I was forced to rebuild my body, first with yoga, and then on some other kinds of fitness. But it came out of a really, like, ohmygod, I had surgery, and my core muscles had been cut into and I had to rebuild my basic strength and I did that after doing all the psychic stuff. So I don't want anybody to think that you can't be perfectly great psychic if you've got, you know, if you're chubby and you're working on it, it's okay. You can still do all this stuff. Anna: Oh, god, yeah! Slade: I used to do all this stuff. But do look at, if it's not working, maybe this is, what we're talking about is the reason why. Anna: Yeah, totally. I just want to add, you can be chubby and not working on it. Slade: You can. Anna: There's nothing wrong with that. Slade: Absolutely. Because, like you said, some people who are really sensitive are not spending time in the body, it's on autopilot in some way, and that could include being sedentary and sort of eating on autopilot and all kinds of things that go along with that. And you are spending all your time in your head. And years and years ago when I tried to quit smoking, I was trying to treat it as an addiction and I went to a doctor who asked me a gazillion questions about my lifestyle. It felt more like a psychiatric assessment, if you've ever been to someone, you know, to be kind of assessed for depression or something like that. There are these elaborate quizzes that you take and it was that kind of process. He told me at the end of it, he said, you're not addicted to the cigarettes, you're addicted to the endorphin that the body releases when you starve yourself and you're using caffeine to stimulate and to stay in your mind and you spend a lot of time doing activities that are super super mental. And it's like your happy place is to feel like a robot, like you're riding around inside this machine and your body is not really you. You're just your brain. And that, I don't know how that changed my perspective but that was the clue to me realizing what was really happening, and it was that I was disassociating. Anna: Totally. And, even like addiction energy is kind of an upper chakra energy anyway though, so it's probably just, you know, easier to focus on and it's funny, as you talked about that, the image I got is like, oh! That kind of helped you drop into your body and kind of let go of that concept of addiction. Slade: Yes. Anna: Super cool. Slade: Total tangent there but I feel like it's all related. It's all related. Anna: Yeah! Slade: I keep having this image, like a... There's gonna be some links that I'm gonna share but there's some images of you on your website, on your psychic school, on your intuitive school program page, that are out in nature and they're very, um, they're very much the, that kind of intersection of spirituality and nature and... That's what this has all been about for me, is kind of bridging those worlds, so to speak. I think that that's really what you're doing, from my perspective. But I'm interested in what you hope to contribute to this kind of new age world, spirituality, personal development... What do you kind of hope to offer? Anna: I think we're... Yeah, that's such a great question. I think you're the first one to really ask it to me. So, you know, I think what I'm really trying to contribute is, there's been a really large focus in this realm of the upper chakras, of transcending the human experience. And I think we've got to stop doing that. To be honest, if we want things to change on the ground, if we actually want to improve this world that we are in, in these human bodies, then I don't think that we can have spirituality divorced from the body, and divorced from what happens in the body. So what I'm hoping to leave behind is, is that. It's how to have all of this juicy, creative, inspirational, psychic stuff, you know, as an in-the-body experience. And actually have it connect us more to our humanity and to, then, how we interact with other humans in the community. I see so much spiritual bypassing these days. I see so much pain and trauma inflicted on other people, saying from some kind of spiritual elitism viewpoint that I think is so harmful, and I see it because we're using our spirituality kind of divorced from our humanity, from our soul, from those deep soulful chakras. So I think that's what I'm trying to do, and really help HSP and empaths step into their power, because there's a power and there's a place for all of us here, particularly us sensitive empaths, and it's so easy for the culture that we're in to feel like there's NOT a place and I just... There is. I think I'm going to say that until I die. There's a place for us and it's really important. Slade: Mmm... We have to talk about your, the free book that you offer on your website and I'm really excited about this. I don't think that, if I'm projecting into the future, I don't think I'd title the podcast this, but I wanted to just steal it and make it the title of the podcast. The title of your e-book is, 'You Are a Goddamn Magical Unicorn', which, I have decided, wins the award for the best title on a subscriber incentive that I have personally seen, and I've looked at a lot of them because I coach people around this, and I was like, Yes! That is awesome. So, 'You're a Goddamn Magical Unicorn'. It's free to everyone who goes to your website. What's it about? Anna: Yeah. So this is actually a guidebook for HSP. It's kind of like, oh! So you found out you're highly sensitive. Here's your instruction manual. Not instruction manual, but your guidebook. And I wrote it from that place of, we are being too goddamn serious, you know. We, there's so much tiptoeing around our sensitivity and just... I just wanted it to be out there. You are special and goddamnit we need you. So this is, I'm not gonna lie, I may have had some whisky while I wrote this, but this is a guidebook written in, take the title, it's written in that sort of tone. It also, though, offers really practical suggestions for getting in your body for grounding. It offers guided meditations. You also, if you sign up for my newsletter, you get a book and you get the guided meditation that's in the book as an audio file. So you get both. Slade: Okay, cool. Anna: Yeah. And I think I even, ohmygosh, I think I even created a unicorn mandala for you to colour in there. But basically it's like, Here's what high-sensitivity means, like, this is what it means biologically. Here's how herd animals, because all mammals have highly sensitive individuals. So here's how mammals handle high sensitivity, which I think is super cool. Like, the highly sensitive deer or like zebras of any herd are so revered, because they're the first ones to know that there's danger. Slade: Mmm! Anna: So everyone is like, What are the sensitives doing? We will follow the sensitives. And it's just in humans where we get all backwards. And so, I talk about the herd mentality in a very fun way and then I talk about, yeah, taking up space as your own highly sensitive being, and here are three ways you can get started. Slade: Okay. That's awesome. That's exactly kind of what I was kind of hoping that you would have somewhere to send someone. When someone approaches me and they say, 'Help, I'm just kind of like, curled up in a ball here.' I always want to say, 'Do this.' And you're right. I teach them how to protect themselves first, and I like what you talked about on the show about the need to be in the body first and all that. So I think that's an incredibly cool resource even if it didn't have such a kickass title, it sounds like a really awesome piece of information, so definitely we will link to that. Go to your website. It's right there on the homepage and you can't miss that cute little image. So what's next for you? Do you have any big projects on the horizon here? Anna: Yes, yes. I have been building what I'm calling the School for Sacred Rebellion for awhile now. And this is kind of the next step from the Refuge. So the Refuge for Sacred Rebellion is that place where we all get started together. Within that, you learn those sensitive self-defense tools that are kind of like Spiritual Hygiene 101. The School for Sacred Rebellion is my intuitive development program where we go through all of the clairs. We learn how to do, um, you can jump in kind of. Part One is doing basic aura healings. So actually working in, I call it 'Activating the healer' because I believe we're all healers so let's just find yours. Let's find your healer and bring them to the forefront. And you can kind of stop there, and that provides you with a tremendous amount of resources just for working with your own energy and doing healings on yourself and with others. And if you want to dive deeper into those intuitive arts, it goes into Part Two, which is developing clairvoyance, claircognizance, clairsentience, clairaudience, all of that and at the end, we finish with this really cool integration mentorship, because I don't want to create little Anna-bots, you know, like you're having to go out in the world and do what I do. The people that are, that this program is really for are, you know, people who are already doing some form of healing work. I mean, it doesn't have to be for this, but people who are like, 'Yeah, I'm a massage therapist', 'I'm a yoga teacher', 'I'm a doctor', and I would just love to have more to offer my people. So you go through this program, you learn which of the clairs are your strengths, how you want to put them together and then in the mentorship, we, you basically get a bunch of one-on-one and group support in how are you going to go do you now, in this world? Slade: One of the things that I notice about it that I thought was really appealing was the fact that it's broken up into stages, almost more like, if you go to college, and you take, like, 101, and then you come back the next semester and do 201, you know, 102, however they number it, I can't remember, it's been too long. But I like the fact that you can kind of come in and get a stage of the work and then get off and work at that level, or you could keep going, or you could come back and go continue on with the next thing. Anna: Yup. Slade: But rather than it being ONE big huge long program that you commit to from the beginning, you can kind of go through it, you can break it up a little bit more, which I think is gonna really appeal to people, both for financial reasons and also just because absorbing and processing some of this stuff, you need to sit with a tool, like what you just described, you know... Anna: Totally. Slade: ...discovering the self-healer within you, that's something you could sit in that might carry you for months, as you're processing that and integrating that into your life, before you feel like you need to come back to the next thing. Rather than kind of stuffing your face with too much stuff and then trying to figure out later, why did I buy all this, you know. Anna: Yeah. Slade: I want to mention, too, that the course is really not officially launching until the summer of 2018 but Anna has decided to share the page with us. Like I said, check it out just for the cool photography, if nothing else. There's some really great imagery there, great information, and if someone does go to that page and they're interested, they can go ahead and start working with some of these programs? Anna: They can, well, yes and no. So my - if you get to the school and you are just super stoked about it, and you really want to be in it, then get into the Refuge, because the Refuge is where you get those, kind of the starter tools... Slade: Okay. Anna: Like, the prerequisite tools that really guide everything else. The next round of teaching those tools is going to be early Fall of this year. And then there'll be another class of the School. Eventually, I hope to have enough co-teachers and enough bandwidth. I have a one year old right now so I don't have a huge amount of bandwidth, that I can have, you know, multiple sections of the courses going at once, so it is like, 'Oh yeah, that section is offered then and then.' Slade: Okay. Anna: But right now it's a little bit more linear, just because of all of that. Slade: Yeah. Okay. So we're getting a sneak peak at what's coming from you. Anna: Yeah! Slade: And that's very, very cool, and still, the entry point would be to get into the Refuge and start working with the tools and the community there, either way. But we'll link to it just so you can check it out and see what's on offer and see your cool new haircut. And um... Anna: Oh, it's funny, Slade. So I just want to share something with you, with the audience, which is that, so I cut all my hair off and dyed it platinum blonde, which I loved. And now I've been doing a bunch of mountain biking in Seattle, around Seattle, and I nailed these upgrades to my bike and my husband was kind of frowning, like, Okay, I won't bleach my hair anymore, in order to pay for the upgrades. You know, to kind of make it even. So right now, I'm kind of rocking '90s boy band colours. Slade: Okay! Anna: You know, like, it's like a little '90s boy band. I'm not that stoked on it but it's kind of funny. Slade: Hey, listen, one of my best girl friends is platinum and it's, you gotta be like, dedicated to platinum. It's a lot of upkeep and a lot of chemistry involved. Yeah. It's not just something you do once. Anna: Nope. Slade: Anna, it's been really fantastic capturing this conversation with you and hearing about your take on everything. I definitely learned a few things and I'm processing some things differently, having spoken with you about HSP and how to, how to work with that. I think I will go away and ponder and probably do some things differently. Definitely gonna be sending some people to the Goddamn Magical Unicorn book and... But just before you leave us, tell everyone where they can go to find you online. Anna: Yeah, you can find me at www.sensitivityuncensored.com. And then I'm also, I'm kind of on Facebook but really I'm more on Instagram @sensitivity_uncensored. Slade: Cool. We'll put all the links in the Show Notes to the various parts of your site that we highlighted. That was great, Anna. Thank you for coming on. Anna: Yeah, thank you so much. I really enjoyed it.

Anna discusses raising a son with childhood-onset schizophrenia on a Midwestern farm, the journey to the right diagnosis & medications, and what there is to celebrate.   Transcription: SPEAKER: Welcome to the ‘Just Ask Mom' podcast where mothers share their experiences of raising children with mental illness. ‘Just ask Mom' is a Mothers on the Frontline production. Today, we will speak with Anna, the mother of a son with early onset schizophrenia. Anna: My name is Anna and I'm from the Midwest and … oh, gosh. I went to college for computer information systems, got my degree, worked for the railroad for a number of years in information systems and married a farmer. So it's quite a diverse life. Tammy: Yes. Anna:  Yeah, that's a little bit about me. Tammy: Very cool. Anna: I always wanted to be a mom. Growing up, you know, I always imagined myself with five kids and when I got married to my husband, I mean, I just really imagined our life as a typical farm family, lots of kids and dogs and, you know, running around outside and life didn't happen that way. [music] So we have one son, and he was actually adopted from Russia. He was 14 months old and at the time. We always expected when you adopt a child from an orphanage situation like that that there's going be some catch up. There's going to be some things that you need to do to play catch up. Matthew always stayed behind, though. He never was able to catch up and working through that as he got older, more and more issues came out and come to find out when he was 13 he was officially diagnosed with early onset schizophrenia. [He] had symptoms starting at the age of eight and that was a very hard thing to accept as a parent, especially when it's your only-- I mean, it's always hard, but when it's your only child and you've gone through so much to get this child and um-- I went through a pretty major grieving process, you know-- Tammy: Absolutely. Anna:  So the thing that I want other parents to know: when you're dealing with a child with special needs and that has such a serious illness, -- it's okay. It's okay to grieve, it's okay to grieve for that child that you had in your heart, that you expected, that you always pictured that you would have raised. That is a loss and you shouldn't feel guilty about grieving for that child, but then you have to move past that. You have to get to a place where you accept that child for who they are. It's easy to say and hard to do but once you get to that place where you have truly accepted that child for who they are and for their abilities-- although they may be different than what you expected, you-- you'll find that things are easier. You'll find that it's not as hard to accept where they're at and enjoy them for who they are and every day becomes easier. Tammy: This is especially a lesson you have to learn in this particular situation but what you're saying is true for any parent. Anna: Sure. Absolutely. For any parent, any child. You can have a child that is neuro-typical but they don't have the same likes as you do and they don't have the same interests as you do and you guys are polar opposites and you still have to accept that child for who they are. You may butt heads but you have to realize they are their own individual. Absolutely.  I think for my husband, I'll kind of speak to that little bit-- he's a farmer. He's a typical Midwestern farmer and grew up in a very sheltered environment, you know, didn't ever really have any exposure to the big city and diversity and things like that, and it was, I mean, he had it in his mind his expectations of his child would be that they would help him farm. They would grow up learning that and doing that and that wasn't something that Matthew could do. That was really hard for him to accept and as long as he wasn't accepting that, as long as he was fighting that internally, he was miserable. Once he was able to accept that, he could move on with his life and he could be happy and...

  This story is about travelling the world, interviewing lots of men (everyone from porn stars to famous author John Grey), and going on a magical Ayahuasca journey. And at the end of this episode I'll share with you the best mushroom you can use to make your own magical brew in your home in case you don't happen to have Ayahuasca growing on your doorstep. What you will learn an easy way to start travelling the world and working from anywhere three things about men that not everyone may realize how to make a tasty brew at home that isn't Ayahuasca, but is pretty darn magical all the same At the end of this episode I'll share with you the best mushroom you can use to make your own magical brew in your home in case you don't happen to have Ayahuasca growing on your doorstep. Our guest, Anna Rova I am very excited to be joined here today by Anna Rova, who is a fellow podcaster, writer and entrepreneur. And among other cool things, Anna has some very interesting insights on relationships. She has interviewed all kinds of people about this topic, from porn stars to John Gray who is the author of the bestseller Men Are from Mars, Women Are From Venus. Anna has also done lots of other magical things, including Ayahuasca which she'll talk about a bit later. So Anna welcome to the Clean Food, Dirty Stories podcast! I'm really excited to have you here today! Anna: Thanks for having me! I'm so excited too! Beginning to travel the world with a one-way ticket Me: Now I know that you basically travel the world writing and doing other amazing things, and I would really love for us to start by having you tell everybody how you came to become a digital nomad. Anna: OK, well that's an easy subject to start with. I became a digital nomad about 2 years ago. Last year around May I started travelling full time, and I was in Malaysia working for a company called MindValley who make personal growth products. I did online marketing there and I got exposed to the digital nomads out there and one day I was like "Oh my God, I don't need to be in an office, I can be anywhere and do my work". So I was over my Malaysia chapter and I booked a one-way ticket to Bangkok. I had a friend there, I went to a wedding there. And then after a week in Bangkok I booked a ticket to an island, got an apartment, taught myself how to ride a scooter and that was it! And the rest is history! It's such a journey, I've travelled all over the world, I've lived in more than 15 countries in the last 2 years. Just ask me what you want to know more about! When in doubt, teach yourself Me: I love how you taught yourself how to ride a scooter, I mean, was that just trial and error? Did you just fall off and then get back on? Anna: I think that was the scariest shit ever in my life because overall I think I had that summer 3 accidents on the motorbike and that's unavoidable. When I was renting an apartment, I had to get around. And for anyone who's been to Thailand, besides Bangkok, the only way to get around is by motorbike. I was scared to death to ride it, I didn't have a driver's license and I thought "I suppose I'm just gonna do it!" But I learned how to balance it in the right way, and that's it. So I went on the street and in the first 3 minutes I realized I was gonna be out of gas, and I was like 'shit what am I gonna do' and you know, I just did it. In 2 months I was pretty much like a pro. I loved it, I loved the freedom of going wherever I wanted. An easy way to transition from full-time work to digital nomad Me: At that point were you writing articles? Anna: Well no, I have an interesting story because for me it wasn't like quitting everything and then doing my business. It was good because this transition from having a full-time job in an office to a digital nomad lifestyle with remote work can be a really hard one. I think a lot of people aren't prepared, they think it's easy. But I negotiated to basically start working remotely for the same company. I had a full-time job and I didn't need to be in an office, so that was for about half a year so it really helped me to have stability for the first 6 months, somebody out there waiting for me to show up and do my work. The rest was so unstable, you didn't know what's going to happen tomorrow, where you'd be, it was crazy. So that was great and I wasn't ready yet to jump into my full-on entrepreneurship journey. But I actually found another job with a company that's in the same industry and I signed a contract for another year to work full-time remotely doing online marketing which was great. I negotiated like a double salary and it was awesome! Another one-way ticket...to Colombia I booked my one-way ticket to Colombia and you know, Latin America was a continent that was always in my dreams. But after a year I came back to this feeling that I'm an entrepreneur, you know? I need to do my own thing, I have so much in me to write, to say, to discover the world, to teach. So I quit the job this January just 3 months ago and I went on this 90-day Wanderova journey and I thought I'm just gonna write about it, and it was incredible! In two months of writing on Medium I got to top writer in Travel, top writer in Relationships, I got published by a publication, I'm building my own business, I coached a couple of people. Becoming a relationship expert Me: So then that was my next question actually, because we'll link to Medium in the show notes and then people can read about the posts that you were writing when you were travelling. But I'm curious to know how you then started to write about relationships and how you got to interview porn stars and John Gray? Talk about a mixture! Anna: So actually that project, my expertise in relationships started way before I became a digital nomad. This is also a sign for me when I look back I realize that I was always entrepreneurial. I just didn't fully realize it consciously. From MindValley to John Gray While I had my full-time job in Malaysia, some of you might know that MindValley is such a creative, entrepreneurial place. And I started my podcast in 2014. At that time I had just broke up with my boyfriend. We were almost engaged and all of that but I said I don't want that. I didn't know anything about relationships but I was into podcasting and I just said "I'm going to start my own podcast where I'm going to interview men about relationships to figure it all out". And you know, it was such a journey, I did the project for two years. In these two years I got a chance to interview 43 amazing men all about women and relationships. I asked them all kinds of questions, and yes I interviewed John Gray. He wrote 17 books on relationships and you know, he's a famous writer and speaker, men go to their cave and whatever. I was shocked myself when he decided to say yes and have an interview with me. Enter the porn star I interviewed porn stars. It's actually a funny story because after my interview with a porn star, his name was I think John Logan. A couple of weeks later I was doing my self satisfaction moment in bed and then I saw the guy in a porn video in like a threesome and I was like "Oh my God I can't watch this! I interviewed him on my podcast!" But yeah, I interviewed all kinds of men from all kinds of nationalities, all kinds of walks of life. And I just asked them what do they find attractive in a woman and all of that. Me: And what kind of things came out? What are some of the common things that men seem to say about what makes women attractive? Anna: Oh this is such a huge subject! Me: Maybe two or three little things. Anna: I actually learned a lot, not only from them, but I read a lot, I researched the subject. And I became a totally different woman. It was a journey to discover men, but at the same time it was more of a journey of discovering myself and what I think about men, what I think about relationships, what I think about women. The first thing Anna learned about men A lot of shit came up that were limiting beliefs, patterns from my childhood, whatever. So one of the things that I love to tell everyone, and women especially, is that we have this notion that men are something based on what we've seen in our life. But I absolutely believe 100% in the good of men: I love men, I love their masculinity, their polarity. And I started appreciating men. I realized what they have to go through to even talk to a woman, you know? Like I never thought about it. Men go through their puberty and they just start Googling things and talking to other men about how to get women. We as women, I mean I don't want to generalize but a lot of women are so bitchy to men and so down on men and "oh they just want to get into my pants" and I just went inside and realized who they're raised by and how they're going through all of this process. First I'd say that I just got to understand and appreciate men, which was my mission. I realized that it's a journey for all of us. Anna's biggest learning The other thing that I realized is that I dug deep and this is all about patterns and limiting beliefs that come from my family and my childhood and my culture and what I've seen. And I realized that I was attracting all of these emotionally unavailable men because I myself was emotionally unavailable. So my second tip and my biggest learning is that our partners or the men that we attract as women are a direct reflection of us. If we attract someone that doesn't call us back or whatever, that means that we ourselves are unavailable. And it's really hard to realize cause you're like "But I want love! I want a relationship!" But you're just not ready. That's what I tell all of my girlfriends when they ask me. If you're attracting super needy men there's a lot of deep, deep work in there. So that's the second thing. The third thing: we're working with broken tools And the third thing I'd say is that I just realized I never saw growing up a healthy model of how relationships should be. I come from a small Eastern European country, my mother passed away when I was 8 years old, and my dad after that remarried a couple of times. Well, once he remarried, but there were many women in his life and there was a stepmother, there was an evil bitch there, I mean I have a crazy story. Basically I just didn't see healthy relationships where men loved their women, women loved their men and they had healthy relationships where they're partners. They're not like "Oh my God, you're my other half" and like "Save me" and "Heal all my wounds". I guess one of the biggest realizations was that I just realized that our modern notion of love and relationships is completely broken. We just expect the other person to come in and "Make me happy, heal my wounds". It just doesn't work. A healthy relationship today, and still travelling! Today I'm engaged to my man, but I always make sure that this is me, and my shit is like my shit and I need to work on me constantly. Even when I'm getting married. I'm like "this is his own shit, this is my shit". We're together in this, and we're choosing each other every day and you know, we're not dependent on each other emotionally. At least I hope we're not. Me: You know, I like that phrase 'choosing each other every day', that's really quite cool. Yeah. Anna: Yeah. So I believe that really helped me and you know, I just became emotionally independent and that's how I met my man currently and that's how he proposed 9 months after we met. We're having a wedding in Moldova in my country and it's so beautiful and flowery but there was a lot of work behind it. I went through a lot of stuff. So that's the story. Anna's Ayahuasca journey Me: So when I was reading your blog and the stories of your travels, I just zeroed in on your Ayahuasca story. I was like "I have got to read this!" because I've always wanted to try it and I haven't had the opportunity yet and I know that I will. But for the benefit of anyone listening that doesn't know anything about it, can you just tell us really briefly like what it is, and also how you came to be taking it and what happened? What Ayahuasca is Anna: Ayahuasca is very common among travellers because full-time travellers have a certain character, they're adventurous, so they often know about Ayahuasca. But people who don't travel that much, they're like 'what the hell is that'. So Ayahuasca is something that I heard about a couple of years ago that somebody did it, and it was such an amazing experience. Life-transformation and whatever. I thought "I've gotta do it, I've got to have it on my bucket list!" Me: Cause it's a herb, right? You take it as a tea? Anna: Yeah, so what it is...There's a lot of controversy out there. Scientists have done research and experiments on what ayahuasca does and its effects. But basically it's a herb, it's a medicinal plant that's found in the Amazon so in the Brazilian part in Peru. How you use Ayahuasca...the right way It's mostly in Peru, people go there to have this experience. Ayahuasca's a psychedelic plant. But the difference between all the psychedelic drugs out there, MDMA etc, I mean I haven't done any of that by the way. They call Ayahuasca a medicinal plant and a life transformation experience because it's a shamanic ceremony. So it's not like you go into a club and eat a plant or a mushroom. There's a ceremony, there's a shaman who guides people through. It's a very serious experience, it's an adventure. You've got to be ready to do it and there are so many positive stories around it. People are realizing their life purpose or whatever. And there are also bad stories around it, that people have horrible experiences. What they say that ayahuasca does is that if you look at the research it's actually used as a treatment for drug addicts for example, and people who are lost and want to see but they can't see. So it affects some parts of your brain that are responsible for emotional memories. What Ayahuasca can show you That's why it's healing. It's a healing experience in a way. They say that ayahuasca will show you what you need to see. So I wrote this post, there are two parts. One of them is where you count down... Me: That's the one I read. I haven't read part 2 and I was like "What happens?" Anna: Yes I describe how I felt before, and I was like pushing away the fear and then 48 hours before, an hour before...I was really scared because I didn't know what the hell was gonna happen. What Ayahuasca does So basically it's a liquid tea, they call it Ayahuasca tea. You drink it and maybe in like 20 minutes it starts coming to you. And then basically after that you fall into a state of deep dream and you start seeing psychedelic things for like 5 hours. Me: Wow! 5 hours! Anna: Yes, it's really intense. Me: But you don't see the time go by, I would imagine, right? Anna: Yes, it's totally, well not out of body, I wouldn't know how to describe it. Me: Well it's like when we dream, we're in a completely different state of consciousness, right? And so time doesn't have the same meaning. Anna: Exactly, yeah. And I was aware of what was happening but I was deeply into it. I put it all out there in part 2 for readers to read, but every experience is different. Our group had a really good experience. We did it during the day. We were in a very safe environment which is very important. But I've heard stories of not having a great experience, so it really depends where you are in life, how ready you are, and how much of a control freak you are. A lot of people who didn't have a good experience tried to control it. And you just can't do that. You've gotta work on just letting it go, letting it do its job and all that. Anna's main takeaway from her Ayahuasca journey I'm really happy I did it. It still has its effects on me up until today and I think it always will. I plan to do it again and I'm actually still processing it. I'm really glad I did it. It was powerful. Me: What was the main thing that it gave to you? I mean, if you had to pick one thing, what would that be? Anna: Well I think it's two things. First of all, there's a feeling of oneness. Oneness with the world, with nature, with people. And at the end of it you just feel bliss. Our shaman explained that when you do Ayahuasca, you're at a very high rate of vibration which is actually the human natural state of vibration. I totally believe that we are here to enjoy life. We are here to be happy and to be on that really high vibration. I just felt this feeling of oneness. I felt like whatever I have to do at home, like "Oh I have to do a podcast?" Whatever I have to do, it doesn't really matter. It's like humans we complicate it so much. I felt that before through travelling, but this was a really intense feeling. On top of that... The second thing is that I just look at life as a game. It's all a game! Me: Yes! Totally! Anna: We just complicate things so much but if you just let things flow and be in the game, nobody knows what the fuck they're doing anyway! Me: I tell myself that a lot. I do! It's a game! It was like today because you know, for me, I'm super excited because you're like my first podcast guest, right? Yay! Anna: Yay! Me: And so you know this morning, of course you get a bit nervous. Because I'm using different technology for the first time and all that, and I'm like "You know what? So what!" It's a game as you say, and we're having fun and learning and exploring. Where to find out more about Anna So you've done so many cool things and I know you have a lot to share with listeners. Where do people go if they want to find out more and read about you and read more about your journey? Anna's writings Anna: Well first of all I send everybody to Medium. So if they go to www.Medium.com/@wanderova, this is my profile and I'm writing everything there. I'd say there are three different topics I write about which are travel, relationships and life. But travel not in the sense that I'm not a travel blogger. I don't write about 'ten things to do here and here', I don't care about that. I mostly write about personal growth and self development and my thoughts. My angry thoughts...and so if they like what they're reading I also love to send people to wanderova.com. It's my website and you can sign up to get updates and whenever I create something I'll just send you an email telling you how things are and just sharing my thoughts and stuff. I'm building a business and a lot of things are coming up. But I'd say that, yeah, read my Medium stuff and if you like it then go and subscribe at wanderova.com and we'll have a conversation about life and purpose and travels, yeah. Anna's podcast Me: And your podcast as well, that can be found where? Anna: Well, as I said the podcast isn't active yet but people can listen to it. My previous website is meninsideshow.com or they can find the actual episodes on SoundCloud and type 'meninsideshow' and you can listen to all these different interviews with men. There's a lot of deep, cool stuff because men get very vulnerable. That's what I realized, they're not like robotic machines that don't have feelings. They've been taught to have this image but their world is as intense and as deep as ours. It's just a different polarity but it's powerful. Me: Super! So I'll link to all of those in the show notes for people. Anna, thank you so, so much. I really love your stories. And I for one am definitely going to listen to those podcast episodes. A super mushroom for your own magical brew Now I did mention at the beginning of this episode that I'd share with you what mushroom you can use to make your own magical brew at home. Now I can't promise you it will take you on a magical journey, but it's a great coffee substitute. The mushroom is reishi. Now before you freak out and think where the hell am I gonna get reishi, you can easily get it on Amazon. Benefits of reishi mushroom Reishi mushroom not only makes a great drink, but it's an adaptogen. What that means is that it helps us deal with stress. So super important, right? Reishi also helps keep your blood sugar stable, and it's great for both your immune system and your lymph system. On top of that, reishi is said to be able to help defend against tumor growth, improve liver function, balance your hormones as well as help fight diabetes, allergies and asthma. So you really want to be getting yourself some reishi. I'll link to a very informative article in the show notes as well if you want to get more in-depth scientific knowledge about reishi. How to use reishi mushroom As to how you use it, well, if you've got pieces of reishi, you brew them. You make a tea. If you've got the powder, you just tip the powder into your blender with some warm water. Then you blend your reishi brew with cacao powder and a handful of cashews for a super delicious mocha. Or you can make my coffee substitute which I'll link to in the show notes. So I hope you've enjoyed our tales of magical journeys and brews! And if you try some reishi (or ayahuasca, for that matter), let me know in the comments! Have YOU got a story to share? If you've got a crazy, true story to share - with or without magic mushrooms! - and you'd like to know what food could have saved the day in your situation), I'd love to hear from you! Got a question, or a comment? Got a question, or a comment? Pop a note below in the comments, that would be awesome. You can also subscribe to the podcast to listen 'on the go' in iTunes, Stitcher or Tunein. I hope you have an amazing day. Thank you so much for being here with me to share in my Clean Food, Dirty Stories. Bye for now! RESOURCES Anna's podcast: https://soundcloud.com/maninside-show Anna's blog: https://medium.com/@wanderova My recipe using reishi mushrooms: https://rockingrawchef.com/five-more-superfoods-and-a-coffee-substitute-you-wouldnt-believe/   Anna RovaAnna Rova is an online marketer, lover of life and a yogi who is living the dream working and traveling the world. Originally from Moldova, Anna has lived in over 15 countries including Malaysia, Columbia and Mexico. She continues to travel as a digital nomad.

Episode 180: Technology in the Theatre Classroom Have you wanted to find some new ways to enhance your classroom with technology?  Have you been told you need to integrate technology in your classroom but don't know where to start or what would even make sense to use in the drama classroom? Anna Porter was in the same boat. She started by getting an endorsement in educational technology and a whole world opened up. Listen in to find out how you too can incorporate technology into the theatre classroom. Show Notes Drama Teacher Academy Google classroom Canvas Assessment Quiz Applications Quizalize Socrative Quizizz Formative Kahoot! Classkick Nearpod Google Forms - quiz Episode Transcript Welcome to the Drama Teacher Podcast brought to you by Theatrefolk – the Drama teacher resource company. I'm Lindsay Price. Hello! I hope you're well. Thanks for listening! This is Episode 180 and you can find any links to this episode in the show notes which are at Theatrefolk.com/episode180. Today, we are talking technology in the theatre classroom. Oh, say that five times fast – “technology in the theatre classroom.” Hands up, how many of you have expectations put on you to integrate technology? Right? Right? Hands up. Hands up – lots of hands up, I'm sure. How many of you have no idea how to do that? Our guest today, Anna Porter, was in the same boat. Let's find out what she did and how technology in the theatre classroom is totally possible and totally doable. Let's get to it! LINDSAY: Hello, everybody! I am here with Anna Porter. Hello, Anna! ANNA: Hello, everyone! LINDSAY: Anna, tell everybody where in the world you are. ANNA: I am currently in Virginia. LINDSAY: Awesome. Very good. We're talking today about technology in the Drama classroom. For some Drama teachers, I think that technology can be – well, I'm not going to say it's a dirty word but it's a weird word, isn't it? Technology and Drama might not seem on first glance to go together. ANNA: Yeah, definitely. It's the tool that we want to use but sometimes feels like it gets in the way. LINDSAY: Oh, I like that! How does it get in the way? ANNA: Just in the sense that we're often told we need to be using it but we don't necessarily know how it works in our specific context. LINDSAY: Yeah, totally. And so, the reason I'm talking with Anna is she does a lot of work for Theatrefolk at the Drama Teacher Academy. She's done a lot of lesson plans for us. She's going to be doing something on technology in the Drama classroom with some Google tools. We'll talk about Google tools in a second. Now, Anna, when we were talking about something else, you let it be known that you have an endorsement in educational technology. What is that? ANNA: I'm currently finishing that endorsement right now but it's done through my state office of education where they are working to try and get teachers to use more technology in the classroom but I think they've recognized that the more teachers know about how to use it, the more they're going to do it. And so, a lot of these classes deal with theory and how to better use technology and how to select technology that works well for our students and for our content area as well as helping us know what tools are out there because I think – for me at least – that was the biggest obstacle – knowing how to use it but what can I use and what resources do I have to do that? That's a big part of what this endorsement has been. LINDSAY: Why did you decide to take it? ANNA: Because I have always wanted to know how to use technology. Whenever I had my review for my administrator, there was always that question. “How are you using technology in your classroom?” I would have to say I use my projector.” I knew there was more that I could do. Also, as I've gotten to know more about how technology works,