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Today on Upstream, Erik Torenberg and Noah Smith discuss the Abundance Agenda by Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson, the impact of the 2008 recession, Obama's presidency, and shifts in political ideology, focusing on the 'New Right' and its cultural and economic implications, while also touching upon the economic recovery strategies post-2008. This episode originally aired on Econ102 (April 1, 2025) —

Hello Interactors,Language shapes power, but it can also obscure and manipulate. Words like woke and decolonize, rooted in justice, are now tools for distortion by figures like Trump and Modi. In this essay, we'll explore how these terms connect to economic and political geography, tracing their co-opting, parallels to colonialism, and the need to reclaim their transformative potential. Let's dig in — and stay woke.STAY WOKE, START TALKINGAre you woke? It's a provocative question these days. Especially since this term was co-opted by the right as a pejorative since the Black Lives Matter uprising of 2020. Even last June Trump said regarding so-called woke military generals, “I would fire them. You can't have woke military.”And then there's Elon Musk. He's been increasingly waging a war on what he calls the ‘woke mind virus'. It seems he started abusing the term in 2021, along with other political rhetoric he's been ramping up in recently. The Economist reports a “leap in 2023 and 2024 in talk of immigration, border control, the integrity of elections and the ‘woke mind virus'.”Folks more on the left are also starting to distance themselves from the term or use it as a pejorative. Including some of my friends. Even self-described leftist and socialist, Susan Neiman criticized "wokeness," in her 2023 book Left Is Not Woke. She argues, as do many, that it has become antithetical to traditional leftist values — especially as it becomes a weapon by the right.According to the definition in the Cambridge dictionary, I am decidedly woke. That means I'm “aware, especially of social problems such as racism and inequality.” It worries me that people are eagerly running from this word. I'd rather they interrogate it. Understand it. Find it's meanings and question the intent behind its use. We should be discussing these nuances, not shushing them.Using the word in a sentence (in an approving manner), Cambridge offers hints at one of the original meanings: “She urged young black people to stay woke.” In 1938 the great blues legend Lead Belly also urged “everybody, be a little careful when they go along through there (Scottsboro, Alabama) – best stay woke, keep their eyes open." Those are spoken words in his song "Scottsboro Boys", about nine young Black men falsely accused of raping two white women in Alabama seven years earlier in 1931.Not a decade before, the Jamaican philosopher and social activist Marcus Garvey wrote in 1923, "Wake up Ethiopia! Wake up Africa!" Fifty years later that inspired playwright and novelist Barry Beckham to write “Garvey Lives!”, a 1972 play that included this line, “I been sleeping all my life. And now that Mr. Garvey done woke me up, I'm gon stay woke.” #StayWoke was trending on Twitter the summer of 2020.In 1962, ten years before Beckham's play, novelist William Melvin Kelley wrote this headline for a piece in the New York Times Magazine: “If You're Woke You Dig It; No mickey mouse can be expected to follow today's Negro idiom without a hip assist. If You're Woke You Dig It.” The article, which is an uneasy glimpse of how mainstream media regarded Black people in 1962, is about how white people co-opt terms from the Black community. His target was white woke Beatniks of the 1960s.Awakening others to injustice in the United States may have originated with white folks inspired by Abraham Lincoln. In the lead up to the his 1860 election, the, then woke, Republican Party helped organize a paramilitary youth movement in the Northern states called the ‘Wide Awakes'. These activists, which included some Black people, were inspired by Lincoln's fight to abolish slavery and promote workers' rights.They took up arms to defend Republican politicians who brazenly awakened others to injustices in America in their campaign speeches. This armed aggression — especially armed Black men — in part is what woke the South to the dawning wokeness across the North. Frightened as they were, they organize their own paramilitary and soon a civil war broke out.RECLAIM, RESIST, REVIVEWords can have unusual lifecycles. The term "queer" evolved from a pejorative label for homosexuals to a term of empowerment. Particularly after the activism of the 1960s and 1970s, including the Stonewall Riots. Its reclamation was reinforced by academic queer theory, which critiques societal norms around sexuality and gender. Today, "queer" is widely embraced as a self-identifier that reflects pride and resistance against stigma.Christopher Hobson, of the Substack Imperfect Notes, suggested in a post about the word polycrisis, this progression of terminology:Proposed — A new word or meaning is introduced through individuals, cultural interactions, academia, or mass media.Adopted — A word or meaning is embraced by a community, shaped by social relevance and media influence.Spread — Diffusion occurs through social networks and media exposure, leading to wider acceptance.Critiqued — As words gain popularity, they face scrutiny from linguistic purists and cultural commentators. The appropriateness of a term can be questioned, highlighting the intent behind its dissemination.Institutionalized — Widely used words become institutionalized, appearing in dictionaries and everyday language as standards.Hobson adds one other stage that is particularly relevant today, ‘pipiked.' It's a term he ‘adopted' as ‘proposed' and I'm now ‘spreading'. It comes from Naomi Klein's book, Doppelganger: A Trip into the Mirror World. Hobson writes:"A useful concept she introduces is ‘pipikism', which she takes from Philip Roth's, Operation Shylock, one of the texts about doppelgangers that Klein engages with. She quote's Roth's description of ‘pipikism' as ‘the antitragic force that inconsequencializes everything—farcicalizes everything, trivializes everything, superficializes everything.' This captures the way in which the concepts and frames we use to help understand our world are rendered useless by bad actors and bad faith, caught in ‘a knot of seriousness and ridiculousness that would never be untangled.'" (3)This lifecycle certainly applies to the word woke, but let's turn to a term more closely related to economic geography that's also in the cross-hairs of being ‘pipiked' — decolonize.Like woke, the term decolonize began as a call to dismantle injustice, exposing the deep roots of exploitation in European colonial systems. It symbolized hope for liberation and justice for the oppressed. Over time, like many critical terms, its meaning shifted. Once radical, decolonize risks becoming performative as its potency weakens through co-optation, especially by bad faith actors.Narendra Modi exemplifies this, using decolonization rhetoric to promote Hindutva, a Hindu nationalist agenda. His government renames cities, revises textbooks to erase Muslim rulers like the Mughals, and marginalizes minorities, particularly Muslims, under the guise of rejecting British colonial legacies. This parallels America's own rewriting of history to reinforce a white Christian narrative. Protestant colonizers replaced Indigenous names and erased Native perspectives, reframing days like Thanksgiving, a time of mourning for many, into celebratory myths.DOCTRINES, DISSENT, AND DOMINIONEarly colonial educational curricula framed colonization as a divine mission to civilize the so-called savages. Native Americans were often depicted as obstacles to progress rather than as sovereign peoples with rich cultures and governance systems. Systems, like the Iroquois League, impressed and inspired the early framers of American government, like Benjamin Franklin.But it was Christian dogma like the Doctrine of Discovery, a theological justification for seizing Indigenous land, that was integrated into educational and legal frameworks. Slavery was sanitized in textbooks to diminish its horrors, portraying it as a benign or even benevolent system. Early 20th-century textbooks referred to enslaved people as “workers” and omitted the violence of chattel slavery.Early colonizers established theological institutions like Harvard University, originally intended to train ministers and propagate Christian doctrine. My own family lineage is culpable. I've already written about Jonas Weed (circa 1610–1676), a Puritan minister who helped colonize Weathersfield, Connecticut. But there's also the brother of my ninth Mother, Jonathan Mitchell (1624–1668). He was a Harvard graduate and Puritan minister who played a pivotal role in shaping the Protestant-oriented writing of American history.He promoted a Christian God-given view of history, framing events as manifestations of God's will. He emphasized covenant theology that cast Puritans as a chosen people. As a fellow at Harvard, he shaped the intellectual environment that influenced figures like Cotton Mather, who's Magnalia Christi Americana (1702) depicted New England as a "city upon a hill" destined to fulfill a divine mission. JFK ripped this quote from history, as did Reagan and Obama to further their campaigns but also to ingrain messages that started with people like Mitchell and Mather.Institutions like the church and universities advanced Christian-nationalist ideologies that justified colonial rule, marginalizing Indigenous, African, and non-European cultures by framing European Christian values as superior. European imperial powers reshaped local economies for their gain, turning colonies into sources of raw materials and markets for goods. Monocultures like sugar and cotton left regions vulnerable, while urban centers prioritized resource export over local needs, fostering uneven development.By the mid-20th century, America had risen to global dominance, cementing its power through institutions like the IMF and World Bank, which reinforced economic dependencies. Decolonization movements emerged in response, with nations in Africa, Asia, and the Caribbean seeking justice and sovereignty. Yet many former colonies remain trapped in systemic inequalities shaped by imperial and American influence. While initiatives like the G-77 — a UN coalition of developing nations promoting collective economic interests and South-South cooperation — aim to reshape global systems, progress remains slow and resistance strong.Today, Project 2025 seeks to revive Christian-nationalist doctrines, echoing colonial practices. Signs of rising authoritarianism, white Christian nationalism, and silencing dissent are evident. The Levant, too, reflects another iteration of the colonial Doctrine of Discovery — seizing land and subjugating oppressed populations under theological justifications.Even in the early days of American colonization, there were woke voices. One of them happened to be another ancestor of mine. My tenth grandfather, Stephen Bachiler (circa 1561–1656) was an English clergyman and an early advocate for the separation of church and state. His life exemplified the struggles for religious autonomy in early American history, but also the importance of sustained critique of power and injustice.Educated at St. John's College, Oxford, he became the vicar of Wherwell but was ousted in 1605 for his Puritan beliefs. At nearly 70, he left to New England in 1632 to establish the First Church of Lynn near Boston. It was there it is assumed he cast the sole vote against the expulsion of Roger Williams — a proponent of equitable treatment of Native Americans and a fellow Separatist.Both men showed a commitment to religious freedom, tolerance, and fair dealings. While they were clearly colonizers and missionaries, each with their own religion, they were also relatively woke. They showed the importance of a sustained quest for liberty and justice amid prevailing authoritarian orthodoxies.Trump wields language as a tool to cement his prevailing authoritarian orthodoxies. He surrounds himself with figures who reduce substantive critical discourse to noise. His media allies, from Fox News to populist voices like Joe Rogan, amplify his rhetoric, diverting attention from systemic injustices. These platforms trivialize urgent issues, overshadowing genuine grievances with performative derision and bad faith gestures.When language meant to confront injustice is co-opted, maligned, or muted, its power is diminished. Performative actions can “pipikize” critical terms, rendering them absurd or hollow while leaving entrenched problems untouched — many rooted in centuries of European colonization. Yet Trump's alignment with a new breed of colonization deepens these issues.Figures like Elon Musk and JD Vance, champions of libertarian techno-optimism, feed into Trump's agenda. Musk dreams of private cities and space colonies free from governmental oversight, while Vance benefits from Silicon Valley backers like Peter Thiel, who pour millions into advancing deregulation and creating self-governing enclaves.These visions are the new face of colonialism — enclaves of privilege where exploitation thrives, disconnected from democratic accountability. They mirror the hierarchies and exclusions of the past, dressed as innovation but steeped in familiar patterns of dominance.In this age of populism — another word twisted and worn thin — vigilance is essential. Language must be scrutinized not just for its use but for its intent. Without this, we risk falling into complacency, lulled by superficial gestures and farcical displays. Stay awake. Words can preserve the power to transform — but only when their intent remains grounded in uprooting injustice and inhumanity.References:* Cambridge Dictionary. Definition of woke. * Economist. (2024). Immigration, border control, and the ‘woke mind virus': Tracking political rhetoric. * Hobson, Christopher. (Sep 13, 2024). Imperfect Notes: In conversation with Pete Chambers. * Klein, Naomi. (2023). Doppelganger: A Trip into the Mirror World. New York: Farrar, Straus and Giroux.* Macmillan Publishers. (2023). Crack-Up Capitalism: Market Radicals and the Dream of a World Without Democracy. * Neiman, Susan. (2023). Left Is Not Woke. Cambridge, MA: Polity Press.* New York Times Magazine. (1962). Kelley, William Melvin. If You're Woke You Dig It; No Mickey Mouse Can Be Expected to Follow Today's Negro Idiom Without a Hip Assist.* Press, Eyal. (2012). Beautiful Souls: Saying No, Breaking Ranks, and Heeding the Voice of Conscience in Dark Times. New York: Farrar, Straus and Giroux.* Roth, Philip. (1993). Operation Shylock: A Confession. New York: Houghton Mifflin Harcourt.* Time Magazine. (2023). India's textbook revisions spark controversy over history and ideology. * Walker, Corinne A. (2024). Aeon. What is behind the explosion in talk about decolonisation. * Dull, Jonathan. (2021). Post-Colonialism: Understanding the Past to Change the Future. World History Connected, 18(1), 125–142. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit interplace.io

Civil War 2: The Second part of the Posting is reflections on the current status of the United States.  It is very easy to destroy something good, and we are far down the road into that destruction.  The European Christian forces are absolutely required to participate in this contest of we have any hope at all of "MAGA." We hae already passed the point of an entirely peaceful and legal resolution to our current conflict. Fritz Berggren, PhD www.bloodandfaith.com

What may be the only presidential debate of the campaign is tonight, hosted by ABC. Kamala Harris and Donald Trump will be looking for opportunities to create viral sound bites, which means it should be entertaining but not very informative. 5) Erdogan calls emergency meeting of Muslim nations over Israel's “attack on Jerusalem”; 4) Harris, Trump look for KO in tonight's debate;  3) Democrat lawmakers in California table reparations bills; 2) US Navy officers punished for installing Starlink to get Internet while at sea; 1) College professor worries that “European Christian” values will destroy the mystical beauty of outer space. FOLLOW US! X: @WatchSkyWatchTV | @Five_In_Ten YouTube: @SkyWatchTelevision | @SimplyHIS | @FiveInTen Rumble: @SkyWatchTV Facebook: @SkyWatchTV | @SimplyHIS | @EdensEssentials SkyWatchTV.com | SkyWatchTVStore.com | EdensEssentials.com | WhisperingPoniesRanch.com

What may be the only presidential debate of the campaign is tonight, hosted by ABC. Kamala Harris and Donald Trump will be looking for opportunities to create viral sound bites, which means it should be entertaining but not very informative.5) Erdogan calls emergency meeting of Muslim nations over Israel's “attack on Jerusalem”; 4) Harris, Trump look for KO in tonight's debate; 3) Democrat lawmakers in California table reparations bills; 2) US Navy officers punished for installing Starlink to get Internet while at sea; 1) College professor worries that “European Christian” values will destroy the mystical beauty of outer space.FOLLOW US!X: @WatchSkyWatchTV | @Five_In_TenYouTube: @SkyWatchTelevision | @SimplyHIS | @FiveInTenRumble: @SkyWatchTVFacebook: @SkyWatchTV | @SimplyHIS | @EdensEssentialsInstagram: @SkyWatchTV | @SimplyHisShow | @EdensEssentialsUSATikTok: @SkyWatchTV | @SimplyHisShow | @EdensEssentialsSkyWatchTV.com | SkyWatchTVStore.com | EdensEssentials.com | WhisperingPoniesRanch.com

For many families, the Christmas Eve feast is a so-called "meatless meal." It's a tradition of European Christian roots that has gone on to take many forms. Mentioned in this episode Plating Grace Music in this Episode "Italian Trip" — wildsound159, via Pixabay "God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen," — Don Maue, shared directly by the artist "First Snow" — Scott Buckley, via ScottBuckley.com.au "Silent Night" — DJ Williams, via Youtube Audio Library "Mortality" — Podington Bear, via Free Music Archive

One of the eight national dances of India, bharatanatyam, partly originates from the area around Tranquebar. During the time that Tranquebar was a Danish colony, devadasis, women who did service at temples through dance, were patronized by the Thanjavur royal court. In 1623, a Danish–Icelandic soldier routinely observed the devadasis dancing outside the Masilamaninathar temple opposite Fort Dansborg, which he was guarding. His accounts of the dancers are interesting at two levels; first, they provide us with unique data on the role of the devadasis at the village level in seventeenth century Tamil Nadu. Secondly, they shed light on a certain imagination and perspective on Indian religion grounded in European Christian thought at the time. Since the seventeenth century the dance of the devadasis has undergone a dramatic transformation, as it has been taken from its original setting to a national middle class arena in which females of very different socio-cultural backgrounds learn the dance now called bharatanatyam. Stine elaborates on her fieldwork done in one of the bharatanatyam dance institutions situated in New Delhi, and deals with reflections on Hinduism as well as Christianity through dance practice. Parallel to that some methodological reflections on the study on cultural encounters through dance are presented. Though set in very different contexts, the two accounts shed light on Christian perspectives on Hinduism through their encounter with a dominant South Indian dance form. In this episode, Stine Simonsen Puri, explores history and practice of the Indian temple dance today called bharatanatyam through a focus on cultural encounters with the dance from both a Hindu and a Christian perspective. Being a board member of the Nordic Center India, part of the Faculty of Modern India and South Asian Studies as well as Teaching Associate Professor at the Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional studies, Stine shares her expertise on Indian's socio-cultural issues. Her knowledge especially stems from her extensive fieldwork at a bharatanatyam Dance School in New Delhi as well as her research part of the Tranquebar Initiative. Marianne Tykesson is a student assistant as the Nordic Institute of Asia Studies and a Cross-Cultural Studies Student at the University of Copenhagen with a particular interest in the research of social injustice and cross-national encounters. The Nordic Asia Podcast is a collaboration sharing expertise on Asia across the Nordic region, brought to you by the Nordic Institute of Asian Studies (NIAS) based at the University of Copenhagen, along with our academic partners: the Centre for East Asian Studies at the University of Turku, and Asianettverket at the University of Oslo. We aim to produce timely, topical and well-edited discussions of new research and developments about Asia. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/new-books-network

One of the eight national dances of India, bharatanatyam, partly originates from the area around Tranquebar. During the time that Tranquebar was a Danish colony, devadasis, women who did service at temples through dance, were patronized by the Thanjavur royal court. In 1623, a Danish–Icelandic soldier routinely observed the devadasis dancing outside the Masilamaninathar temple opposite Fort Dansborg, which he was guarding. His accounts of the dancers are interesting at two levels; first, they provide us with unique data on the role of the devadasis at the village level in seventeenth century Tamil Nadu. Secondly, they shed light on a certain imagination and perspective on Indian religion grounded in European Christian thought at the time. Since the seventeenth century the dance of the devadasis has undergone a dramatic transformation, as it has been taken from its original setting to a national middle class arena in which females of very different socio-cultural backgrounds learn the dance now called bharatanatyam. Stine elaborates on her fieldwork done in one of the bharatanatyam dance institutions situated in New Delhi, and deals with reflections on Hinduism as well as Christianity through dance practice. Parallel to that some methodological reflections on the study on cultural encounters through dance are presented. Though set in very different contexts, the two accounts shed light on Christian perspectives on Hinduism through their encounter with a dominant South Indian dance form. In this episode, Stine Simonsen Puri, explores history and practice of the Indian temple dance today called bharatanatyam through a focus on cultural encounters with the dance from both a Hindu and a Christian perspective. Being a board member of the Nordic Center India, part of the Faculty of Modern India and South Asian Studies as well as Teaching Associate Professor at the Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional studies, Stine shares her expertise on Indian's socio-cultural issues. Her knowledge especially stems from her extensive fieldwork at a bharatanatyam Dance School in New Delhi as well as her research part of the Tranquebar Initiative. Marianne Tykesson is a student assistant as the Nordic Institute of Asia Studies and a Cross-Cultural Studies Student at the University of Copenhagen with a particular interest in the research of social injustice and cross-national encounters. The Nordic Asia Podcast is a collaboration sharing expertise on Asia across the Nordic region, brought to you by the Nordic Institute of Asian Studies (NIAS) based at the University of Copenhagen, along with our academic partners: the Centre for East Asian Studies at the University of Turku, and Asianettverket at the University of Oslo. We aim to produce timely, topical and well-edited discussions of new research and developments about Asia. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/performing-arts

One of the eight national dances of India, bharatanatyam, partly originates from the area around Tranquebar. During the time that Tranquebar was a Danish colony, devadasis, women who did service at temples through dance, were patronized by the Thanjavur royal court. In 1623, a Danish–Icelandic soldier routinely observed the devadasis dancing outside the Masilamaninathar temple opposite Fort Dansborg, which he was guarding. His accounts of the dancers are interesting at two levels; first, they provide us with unique data on the role of the devadasis at the village level in seventeenth century Tamil Nadu. Secondly, they shed light on a certain imagination and perspective on Indian religion grounded in European Christian thought at the time. Since the seventeenth century the dance of the devadasis has undergone a dramatic transformation, as it has been taken from its original setting to a national middle class arena in which females of very different socio-cultural backgrounds learn the dance now called bharatanatyam. Stine elaborates on her fieldwork done in one of the bharatanatyam dance institutions situated in New Delhi, and deals with reflections on Hinduism as well as Christianity through dance practice. Parallel to that some methodological reflections on the study on cultural encounters through dance are presented. Though set in very different contexts, the two accounts shed light on Christian perspectives on Hinduism through their encounter with a dominant South Indian dance form. In this episode, Stine Simonsen Puri, explores history and practice of the Indian temple dance today called bharatanatyam through a focus on cultural encounters with the dance from both a Hindu and a Christian perspective. Being a board member of the Nordic Center India, part of the Faculty of Modern India and South Asian Studies as well as Teaching Associate Professor at the Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional studies, Stine shares her expertise on Indian's socio-cultural issues. Her knowledge especially stems from her extensive fieldwork at a bharatanatyam Dance School in New Delhi as well as her research part of the Tranquebar Initiative. Marianne Tykesson is a student assistant as the Nordic Institute of Asia Studies and a Cross-Cultural Studies Student at the University of Copenhagen with a particular interest in the research of social injustice and cross-national encounters. The Nordic Asia Podcast is a collaboration sharing expertise on Asia across the Nordic region, brought to you by the Nordic Institute of Asian Studies (NIAS) based at the University of Copenhagen, along with our academic partners: the Centre for East Asian Studies at the University of Turku, and Asianettverket at the University of Oslo. We aim to produce timely, topical and well-edited discussions of new research and developments about Asia. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/anthropology

One of the eight national dances of India, bharatanatyam, partly originates from the area around Tranquebar. During the time that Tranquebar was a Danish colony, devadasis, women who did service at temples through dance, were patronized by the Thanjavur royal court. In 1623, a Danish–Icelandic soldier routinely observed the devadasis dancing outside the Masilamaninathar temple opposite Fort Dansborg, which he was guarding. His accounts of the dancers are interesting at two levels; first, they provide us with unique data on the role of the devadasis at the village level in seventeenth century Tamil Nadu. Secondly, they shed light on a certain imagination and perspective on Indian religion grounded in European Christian thought at the time. Since the seventeenth century the dance of the devadasis has undergone a dramatic transformation, as it has been taken from its original setting to a national middle class arena in which females of very different socio-cultural backgrounds learn the dance now called bharatanatyam. Stine elaborates on her fieldwork done in one of the bharatanatyam dance institutions situated in New Delhi, and deals with reflections on Hinduism as well as Christianity through dance practice. Parallel to that some methodological reflections on the study on cultural encounters through dance are presented. Though set in very different contexts, the two accounts shed light on Christian perspectives on Hinduism through their encounter with a dominant South Indian dance form. In this episode, Stine Simonsen Puri, explores history and practice of the Indian temple dance today called bharatanatyam through a focus on cultural encounters with the dance from both a Hindu and a Christian perspective. Being a board member of the Nordic Center India, part of the Faculty of Modern India and South Asian Studies as well as Teaching Associate Professor at the Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional studies, Stine shares her expertise on Indian's socio-cultural issues. Her knowledge especially stems from her extensive fieldwork at a bharatanatyam Dance School in New Delhi as well as her research part of the Tranquebar Initiative. Marianne Tykesson is a student assistant as the Nordic Institute of Asia Studies and a Cross-Cultural Studies Student at the University of Copenhagen with a particular interest in the research of social injustice and cross-national encounters. The Nordic Asia Podcast is a collaboration sharing expertise on Asia across the Nordic region, brought to you by the Nordic Institute of Asian Studies (NIAS) based at the University of Copenhagen, along with our academic partners: the Centre for East Asian Studies at the University of Turku, and Asianettverket at the University of Oslo. We aim to produce timely, topical and well-edited discussions of new research and developments about Asia. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/south-asian-studies

One of the eight national dances of India, bharatanatyam, partly originates from the area around Tranquebar. During the time that Tranquebar was a Danish colony, devadasis, women who did service at temples through dance, were patronized by the Thanjavur royal court. In 1623, a Danish–Icelandic soldier routinely observed the devadasis dancing outside the Masilamaninathar temple opposite Fort Dansborg, which he was guarding. His accounts of the dancers are interesting at two levels; first, they provide us with unique data on the role of the devadasis at the village level in seventeenth century Tamil Nadu. Secondly, they shed light on a certain imagination and perspective on Indian religion grounded in European Christian thought at the time. Since the seventeenth century the dance of the devadasis has undergone a dramatic transformation, as it has been taken from its original setting to a national middle class arena in which females of very different socio-cultural backgrounds learn the dance now called bharatanatyam. Stine elaborates on her fieldwork done in one of the bharatanatyam dance institutions situated in New Delhi, and deals with reflections on Hinduism as well as Christianity through dance practice. Parallel to that some methodological reflections on the study on cultural encounters through dance are presented. Though set in very different contexts, the two accounts shed light on Christian perspectives on Hinduism through their encounter with a dominant South Indian dance form. In this episode, Stine Simonsen Puri, explores history and practice of the Indian temple dance today called bharatanatyam through a focus on cultural encounters with the dance from both a Hindu and a Christian perspective. Being a board member of the Nordic Center India, part of the Faculty of Modern India and South Asian Studies as well as Teaching Associate Professor at the Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional studies, Stine shares her expertise on Indian's socio-cultural issues. Her knowledge especially stems from her extensive fieldwork at a bharatanatyam Dance School in New Delhi as well as her research part of the Tranquebar Initiative. Marianne Tykesson is a student assistant as the Nordic Institute of Asia Studies and a Cross-Cultural Studies Student at the University of Copenhagen with a particular interest in the research of social injustice and cross-national encounters. The Nordic Asia Podcast is a collaboration sharing expertise on Asia across the Nordic region, brought to you by the Nordic Institute of Asian Studies (NIAS) based at the University of Copenhagen, along with our academic partners: the Centre for East Asian Studies at the University of Turku, and Asianettverket at the University of Oslo. We aim to produce timely, topical and well-edited discussions of new research and developments about Asia.

One of the eight national dances of India, bharatanatyam, partly originates from the area around Tranquebar. During the time that Tranquebar was a Danish colony, devadasis, women who did service at temples through dance, were patronized by the Thanjavur royal court. In 1623, a Danish–Icelandic soldier routinely observed the devadasis dancing outside the Masilamaninathar temple opposite Fort Dansborg, which he was guarding. His accounts of the dancers are interesting at two levels; first, they provide us with unique data on the role of the devadasis at the village level in seventeenth century Tamil Nadu. Secondly, they shed light on a certain imagination and perspective on Indian religion grounded in European Christian thought at the time. Since the seventeenth century the dance of the devadasis has undergone a dramatic transformation, as it has been taken from its original setting to a national middle class arena in which females of very different socio-cultural backgrounds learn the dance now called bharatanatyam. Stine elaborates on her fieldwork done in one of the bharatanatyam dance institutions situated in New Delhi, and deals with reflections on Hinduism as well as Christianity through dance practice. Parallel to that some methodological reflections on the study on cultural encounters through dance are presented. Though set in very different contexts, the two accounts shed light on Christian perspectives on Hinduism through their encounter with a dominant South Indian dance form. In this episode, Stine Simonsen Puri, explores history and practice of the Indian temple dance today called bharatanatyam through a focus on cultural encounters with the dance from both a Hindu and a Christian perspective. Being a board member of the Nordic Center India, part of the Faculty of Modern India and South Asian Studies as well as Teaching Associate Professor at the Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional studies, Stine shares her expertise on Indian's socio-cultural issues. Her knowledge especially stems from her extensive fieldwork at a bharatanatyam Dance School in New Delhi as well as her research part of the Tranquebar Initiative. Marianne Tykesson is a student assistant as the Nordic Institute of Asia Studies and a Cross-Cultural Studies Student at the University of Copenhagen with a particular interest in the research of social injustice and cross-national encounters. The Nordic Asia Podcast is a collaboration sharing expertise on Asia across the Nordic region, brought to you by the Nordic Institute of Asian Studies (NIAS) based at the University of Copenhagen, along with our academic partners: the Centre for East Asian Studies at the University of Turku, and Asianettverket at the University of Oslo. We aim to produce timely, topical and well-edited discussions of new research and developments about Asia. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/indian-religions

One of the eight national dances of India, bharatanatyam, partly originates from the area around Tranquebar. During the time that Tranquebar was a Danish colony, devadasis, women who did service at temples through dance, were patronized by the Thanjavur royal court. In 1623, a Danish–Icelandic soldier routinely observed the devadasis dancing outside the Masilamaninathar temple opposite Fort Dansborg, which he was guarding. His accounts of the dancers are interesting at two levels; first, they provide us with unique data on the role of the devadasis at the village level in seventeenth century Tamil Nadu. Secondly, they shed light on a certain imagination and perspective on Indian religion grounded in European Christian thought at the time. Since the seventeenth century the dance of the devadasis has undergone a dramatic transformation, as it has been taken from its original setting to a national middle class arena in which females of very different socio-cultural backgrounds learn the dance now called bharatanatyam. Stine elaborates on her fieldwork done in one of the bharatanatyam dance institutions situated in New Delhi, and deals with reflections on Hinduism as well as Christianity through dance practice. Parallel to that some methodological reflections on the study on cultural encounters through dance are presented. Though set in very different contexts, the two accounts shed light on Christian perspectives on Hinduism through their encounter with a dominant South Indian dance form. In this episode, Stine Simonsen Puri, explores history and practice of the Indian temple dance today called bharatanatyam through a focus on cultural encounters with the dance from both a Hindu and a Christian perspective. Being a board member of the Nordic Center India, part of the Faculty of Modern India and South Asian Studies as well as Teaching Associate Professor at the Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional studies, Stine shares her expertise on Indian's socio-cultural issues. Her knowledge especially stems from her extensive fieldwork at a bharatanatyam Dance School in New Delhi as well as her research part of the Tranquebar Initiative. Marianne Tykesson is a student assistant as the Nordic Institute of Asia Studies and a Cross-Cultural Studies Student at the University of Copenhagen with a particular interest in the research of social injustice and cross-national encounters. The Nordic Asia Podcast is a collaboration sharing expertise on Asia across the Nordic region, brought to you by the Nordic Institute of Asian Studies (NIAS) based at the University of Copenhagen, along with our academic partners: the Centre for East Asian Studies at the University of Turku, and Asianettverket at the University of Oslo. We aim to produce timely, topical and well-edited discussions of new research and developments about Asia. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/religion

One of the eight national dances of India, bharatanatyam, partly originates from the area around Tranquebar. During the time that Tranquebar was a Danish colony, devadasis, women who did service at temples through dance, were patronized by the Thanjavur royal court. In 1623, a Danish–Icelandic soldier routinely observed the devadasis dancing outside the Masilamaninathar temple opposite Fort Dansborg, which he was guarding. His accounts of the dancers are interesting at two levels; first, they provide us with unique data on the role of the devadasis at the village level in seventeenth century Tamil Nadu. Secondly, they shed light on a certain imagination and perspective on Indian religion grounded in European Christian thought at the time. Since the seventeenth century the dance of the devadasis has undergone a dramatic transformation, as it has been taken from its original setting to a national middle class arena in which females of very different socio-cultural backgrounds learn the dance now called bharatanatyam. Stine elaborates on her fieldwork done in one of the bharatanatyam dance institutions situated in New Delhi, and deals with reflections on Hinduism as well as Christianity through dance practice. Parallel to that some methodological reflections on the study on cultural encounters through dance are presented. Though set in very different contexts, the two accounts shed light on Christian perspectives on Hinduism through their encounter with a dominant South Indian dance form. In this episode, Stine Simonsen Puri, explores history and practice of the Indian temple dance today called bharatanatyam through a focus on cultural encounters with the dance from both a Hindu and a Christian perspective. Being a board member of the Nordic Center India, part of the Faculty of Modern India and South Asian Studies as well as Teaching Associate Professor at the Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional studies, Stine shares her expertise on Indian's socio-cultural issues. Her knowledge especially stems from her extensive fieldwork at a bharatanatyam Dance School in New Delhi as well as her research part of the Tranquebar Initiative. Marianne Tykesson is a student assistant as the Nordic Institute of Asia Studies and a Cross-Cultural Studies Student at the University of Copenhagen with a particular interest in the research of social injustice and cross-national encounters. The Nordic Asia Podcast is a collaboration sharing expertise on Asia across the Nordic region, brought to you by the Nordic Institute of Asian Studies (NIAS) based at the University of Copenhagen, along with our academic partners: the Centre for East Asian Studies at the University of Turku, and Asianettverket at the University of Oslo. We aim to produce timely, topical and well-edited discussions of new research and developments about Asia. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

One of the eight national dances of India, bharatanatyam, partly originates from the area around Tranquebar. During the time that Tranquebar was a Danish colony, devadasis, women who did service at temples through dance, were patronized by the Thanjavur royal court. In 1623, a Danish–Icelandic soldier routinely observed the devadasis dancing outside the Masilamaninathar temple opposite Fort Dansborg, which he was guarding. His accounts of the dancers are interesting at two levels; first, they provide us with unique data on the role of the devadasis at the village level in seventeenth century Tamil Nadu. Secondly, they shed light on a certain imagination and perspective on Indian religion grounded in European Christian thought at the time. Since the seventeenth century the dance of the devadasis has undergone a dramatic transformation, as it has been taken from its original setting to a national middle class arena in which females of very different socio-cultural backgrounds learn the dance now called bharatanatyam. Stine elaborates on her fieldwork done in one of the bharatanatyam dance institutions situated in New Delhi, and deals with reflections on Hinduism as well as Christianity through dance practice. Parallel to that some methodological reflections on the study on cultural encounters through dance are presented. Though set in very different contexts, the two accounts shed light on Christian perspectives on Hinduism through their encounter with a dominant South Indian dance form. In this episode, Stine Simonsen Puri, explores history and practice of the Indian temple dance today called bharatanatyam through a focus on cultural encounters with the dance from both a Hindu and a Christian perspective. Being a board member of the Nordic Center India, part of the Faculty of Modern India and South Asian Studies as well as Teaching Associate Professor at the Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional studies, Stine shares her expertise on Indian's socio-cultural issues. Her knowledge especially stems from her extensive fieldwork at a bharatanatyam Dance School in New Delhi as well as her research part of the Tranquebar Initiative. Marianne Tykesson is a student assistant as the Nordic Institute of Asia Studies and a Cross-Cultural Studies Student at the University of Copenhagen with a particular interest in the research of social injustice and cross-national encounters. The Nordic Asia Podcast is a collaboration sharing expertise on Asia across the Nordic region, brought to you by the Nordic Institute of Asian Studies (NIAS) based at the University of Copenhagen, along with our academic partners: the Centre for East Asian Studies at the University of Turku, and Asianettverket at the University of Oslo. We aim to produce timely, topical and well-edited discussions of new research and developments about Asia. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/christian-studies

The war against the White race goes all the way back to Genesis 3:15. It was present at the time of Christ (Matthew 3:7 and 12:23) The European Christian churches were warned against the false-Jews in Revelation 2:9 and Revelation 3:9. Whites who side with the false-Jews of today are traitors against their race and their God.

This is the first episode of a short series dedicated to the British Military rule of Jerusalem between 1917 and 1920 introducing the almost forgotten figure of Ronald Storrs. Following the conquest of the city, the British established military rule which lasted until 1 July 1920. From the perspective of the local population the government of the city had passed from Ottoman rule to that of a new foreign power. However, the British were not only European Christian rulers: they had also shown their support for Jewish immigration and settlement in Palestine by issuing the Balfour Declaration. Although the civil administration of the city after 1920 has been studied extensively, the military administration has been reviewed as a transitional period. Indeed, military rule forced the renegotiation of several aspects of Jerusalem: politics, urban geography, language and the economy, amongst other things, were all reshaped according to the requirements and values of the new rulers. The military establishment was generally reluctant to engage with the complexities of high politics, so how did their rule affect the city of Jerusalem? To answer this question, attention should be paid to one of the key characters of the British administration: the military governor Ronald Storrs. Military rule did not create a complex structure of government in Jerusalem, but was based upon a high concentration of power in the hands of Storrs. As military governor Storrs ruled the city almost undisturbed between 1917 and 1920, de facto reshaping the city according to his sense of aesthetics and his own values.BibliographyR. Mazza. From the Ottomans to the British (IB Tauris, 2011)R. Mazza '“The Preservation and Safeguarding of the Amenities of the Holy City without Favour or Prejudice to Race or Creed”: The Pro-Jerusalem Society and Ronald Storrs, 1917–1926' Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/jerusalemunplugged. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From 1095 to 1291 CE, thousands and thousands of knights, peasants, nobles, soldiers, and more left Europe for the Holy Land around Jerusalem to take land and power away from Muslims, and into Christian hands. Pope Urban II issued a speech in 1095 calling Christian to take up arms and reclaim "Christian" lands. As incentive, he promised salvation for all who died fighting for what he said was God's will.  But was it ever about God's will? Or was it about Pope Urban's will? Were the Crusades ever really about anything celestial? Or were they about man and power?  Were they mostly about the Catholic Church struggling to consolidate power amongst European Christian monarchs and make sure Christian leaders knew who was really in charge? Holy War? Or power grab? Either way, the decree of Pope Urban set much of the western world on a path we are still following today nearly a full 1,000 years later. Wet Hot Bad Magic Summer Camp tickets are ON SALE!  BadMagicMerch.com Get tour tickets at dancummins.tv Watch the Suck on YouTube: https://youtu.be/pnXcKKOcYakBad Magic Charity of the Month: Over the years, we have tried to donate back to our local community here in Coeur D Alene. This month, we have decided that in honor of Pride month, we are going to donate locally to the North Idaho Pride Alliance whose mission is to connect LGBTQIA+ people and allies to various community groups so they may create a more inclusive North Idaho through Networking, Educating and Advocating. To find out more, you can visit nipridealliance.comMerch: https://www.badmagicmerch.comDiscord! https://discord.gg/tqzH89vWant to join the Cult of the Curious private Facebook Group? Go directly to Facebook and search for "Cult of the Curious" in order to locate whatever happens to be our most current page :)For all merch related questions/problems: store@badmagicproductions.com (copy and paste)Please rate and subscribe on iTunes and elsewhere and follow the suck on social media!! @timesuckpodcast on IG and http://www.facebook.com/timesuckpodcastWanna become a Space Lizard?  Click here: https://www.patreon.com/timesuckpodcastSign up through Patreon and for $5 a month you get to listen to the Secret Suck, which will drop Thursdays at Noon, PST. You'll also get 20% off of all regular Timesuck merch PLUS access to exclusive Space Lizard merch. You get to vote on two Monday topics each month via the app. And you get the download link for my new comedy album, Feel the Heat. Check the Patreon posts to find out how to download the new album and take advantage of other benefits

It's Thursday, June 15th, A.D. 2023. This is The Worldview in 5 Minutes heard at www.TheWorldview.com. I'm Adam McManus. (Adam@TheWorldview.com) By Jonathan Clark European Christian faces prison for embracing heterosexuality Last Friday, a Christian went on trial in the Mediterranean island country of Malta.  Matthew Grech faces fines and prison time under charges of discussing and advertising “conversion practices.” Back in 2022, he had simply spoken to a media outlet about his conversion to Christianity and leaving a homosexual lifestyle. Malta became the first country in Europe to criminalize so-called “conversion therapy” in 2016. Ahead of the trial, Grech said, “My Christian journey of transformation, from being a practicing homosexual interested in the occult . . .  to becoming a committed Evangelical Christian, is one that should be told without fear of being criminalized.” Paul wrote in Romans 1:16, “For I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes.” Contracting European economies The Eurozone is a currency union of 20 member states of the European Union. Based on the latest data from the European Union's statistical agency, there has been a slide into recession during the first quarter of this year. The 20-nation bloc has experienced a decline in its Gross Domestic Product for two consecutive quarters now. Ireland led the first quarter drop in GDP. Other contracting economies included the Netherlands, Malta, Germany, and Greece.  Economists expect further economic decline in the Eurozone over the rest of the year. Alabama, Texas, Indiana, & Mississippi friendliest to religious liberty The Napa Legal Institute released its first annual “Faith and Freedom Index” yesterday. The report ranks U.S. states based on their friendliness to religious freedom and regulatory freedom for nonprofits. Overall, Alabama, Texas, Indiana, and Mississippi scored the highest while Maryland, Michigan, Nevada, and Wisconsin scored the lowest. Mary Margaret Beecher, Executive Director of Napa Legal, said, “Faith-based nonprofits face threats to their religious freedom and the often-crushing weight of regulatory burdens. If we value faith-based organizations . . . our state laws should encourage, not hinder, these organizations.” JPMorgan Chase punished for enabling Jeffrey Epstein's sex trafficking JPMorgan Chase agreed to a $290 million settlement on Monday with victims of Jeffrey Epstein.  The lawsuit accuses the banking giant of knowingly facilitating Epstein's sex trafficking operations through financial means for decades. Last month, Deutsch Bank agreed to a $75 million settlement in a similar case. Catholic health network performed transgender surgeries & abortions A new report from the Lepanto Institute exposes the largest Catholic healthcare network in the U.S. for performing so-called sex-change surgeries.  The report accuses facilities with CommonSpirit Health of performing transgender-related services, abortions, and sterilizations.  The Lepanto Institute stated, “Given everything contained in this report, it is clear that CommonSpirit Health is NOT a Catholic institution and must be immediately stripped of its Catholic identity.” Disturbing church attendance trends post-COVID Dr. George Barna released another report on Tuesday about the reshaping of Christian beliefs and behaviors since the COVID-19 pandemic.  The study noted three trends. First, the proportion of U.S. adults who attend church services weekly is 33% this year, down from 39% at the start of the pandemic. Plus, the proportion of Americans who attend church infrequently or never attend, jumped from 41% to 56% since the pandemic.  Second, Christian affiliation in the U.S. is now 68%, down from 72% in 2020. Both Protestants and Catholics experienced declines in affiliation. Among Protestants, mainline denominations saw the largest increases in affiliation since the pandemic.  And third, the incidence of adults possessing a Biblical worldview declined over the course of the pandemic from 6% to 4%. Biblical worldview incidence among evangelicals decreased from 21% to 14%; among mainline denominations it decreased from 8% to 6%. It held at 1% among Catholics.  Christian jockey thanks Jesus Christ, credits horse, for Belmont win And finally, the thoroughbred colt Arcangelo won the Belmont Stakes on Saturday. The victory makes Jena Antonucci the first female trainer to win a Triple Crown race. Her victory comes on the 50th anniversary of the historic Belmont win by racehorse Secretariat, owned by Penny Chenery. Jockey Javier Castellano guided Arcangelo through the one-and-a-half-mile race in just over two minutes and 29 seconds. Castellano already won this year's Kentucky Derby, riding another racehorse named Mage. The jockey credited the amazing horse in Saturday's race, but first he gave thanks to the Lord Jesus Christ for giving him the opportunity to win. CASTELLANO: “First of all, I always say, thank the Lord Jesus Christ for giving me the opportunity to win a second Triple Crown, the third Triple Crown this year, second Triple Crown for myself.  I give all the credit to the horse.” 1 Thessalonians 5:18 says, “In everything give thanks, for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.” Close And that's The Worldview in 5 Minutes on this Thursday, June 15th in the year of our Lord 2023. Subscribe by iTunes or email to our unique Christian newscast at www.TheWorldview.com. Or get the Generations app through Google Play or The App Store. I'm Adam McManus (Adam@TheWorldview.com). Seize the day for Jesus Christ.

What is a Christian understanding of forgiveness? And does it necessarily involve reconciliation or the abatement of anger?  On the final episode of this season, Gloria welcomes Reverend Matthew Ichihashi Potts on “The Gloria Purvis Podcast” to discuss the subject of forgiveness. Reverend Potts is an Episcopalian minister and professor of Christian Morals at Harvard University. He is also the author of the new book, Forgiveness: An Alternative Account, a probing study that draws upon theology, philosophy, social ethics and even literature to reexamine or rediscover forgiveness. The conversation centers primarily on whether forgiveness is possible especially with grave violations of human dignity, such as slavery, genocide, and mass shootings. Too often, Matthew says, we hurry to dress the wounds of trauma with the bandage of cheap forgiveness. We mistakenly believe that anger must fully subside in order for forgiveness to become possible. But is that what Jesus means when he urges us to forgive seven times seventy times?  Matthew offers an alternative definition of forgiveness, which is simply put, non-retaliation. However, choosing to forgive someone who has caused immense harm does not mean that the victims of violence must sweep feelings of anger under the rug or rush to reconciliation.   “If your question is where does our discomfort around anger come from?” says Matthew, “it comes from things like structural violence, like white supremacy. I think that if you are a person in power, it's really good if your victim is not angry anymore. Because if they're not angry anymore, then there's no wrong to fix. And so I think we should be suspicious of a white, European Christian theological tradition that has come to associate the abatement of anger with forgiveness, because who does that bear out on? It bears out on people who have traditionally been marginalized- women and people of color.” Please consider supporting this podcast by getting a digital subscription to America Media at www.americamagazine.com/subscribe Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Our guest this week is Mark Charles, Native American Activist, Author and Pastor. He has a lot to say about the state of our union and the Doctrine of Discovery. So what is the Doctrine of Discovery? I think Mark explains this clearly in an article he wrote in 2019 for the Faith and Leadership online magazine:"The Doctrine of Discovery is a series of papal bulls, or edicts, of the Catholic Church. The first one, from 1452, is titled Dum Diversas, written by Pope Nicholas V. It authorized the Portuguese to “invade, search out, capture, vanquish, and subdue all Saracens and pagans, … reduce their persons to perpetual slavery, and … convert them to … their use and profit” [as detailed in the follow-up Romanus Pontifex of 1455].It's the church in Europe saying to the nations of Europe, “Wherever you go, whatever land you find not ruled by white European Christian rulers, those people are subhuman, and their land is yours to take.”So this was adopted by European nations both [in efforts] in Africa to colonize and enslave people and by Columbus to land in this “New World,” which is already inhabited by millions, and claim to discover it. You cannot discover lands already inhabited. That's called stealing. The fact that we refer to what Columbus did as “discovery” reveals the implicit racial bias, which is that native people, people of color, aren't fully human."This episode does a deep dive into this dangerous doctrine and using his heavily researched book ("Unsettling Truths: The Ongoing, Dehumanizing Legacy of the Doctrine of Discovery") Mark gives us on a wild history lesson on its impact. We also discuss how the false deification of some of America's most prominent icons (ie: Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Abraham Lincoln, etc) may not necessarily deserve the praise they've received. There's enough in this episode to offend everyone!If you'd like to purchase his book, which we highly recommend, you can purchase it here: https://wirelesshogan.com/2022/10/27/unsettling-truths/Guest Bio:Mark Charles is a speaker, writer, and consultant. The son of an American woman (of Dutch heritage) and a Navajo man, Mark teaches the complexities of American history regarding race, culture, and Christendom in order to help forge a path of healing and conciliation for the nation. In 2012, Mark hosted a public reading at the US Capitol of the buried apology to Native peoples in the 2010 Department of Defense Appropriations Bill given by the 111th Congress. He is the co-author of the book, Unsettling Truths: The Ongoing, Dehumanizing Legacy of the Doctrine of Discovery, and he authors the blog Reflections from the Hogan. He is a co-founder of the Would Jesus Eat Frybread? college-conference series and has served on the boards of the Christian Reformed Church of North America and the Christian Community Development Association. In 2020 Mark ran as an independent candidate for the presidency of the United States, advocating for a Truth and Conciliation Commission – a formal and national dialogue on issues of race, gender, and class.Support the showTo learn more about the show, contact our hosts, or recommend future guests, click on the links below: Website: https://www.faithfulpoliticspodcast.com/ Faithful Host: Josh@faithfulpoliticspodcast.com Political Host: Will@faithfulpoliticspodcast.com Twitter: @FaithfulPolitik Instagram: faithful_politics Facebook: FaithfulPoliticsPodcast LinkedIn: faithfulpolitics

In the 2nd part of our Holi episode, we talk about the colours, issues, the images and the misconceptions with our guest Neha who is the founder of Shaktitva.org.General InformationSubscribers are requested to look for The Hindu Parenting notification emails for new podcasts/posts in their email promotions/spam tab and personally move these into the main inbox. Thereafter all posts will be delivered to their main inbox. Thank you!For questions that you'd like us to address, please use the form below:Hindu Parenting QuestionsFor comments and suggestions, please use the comments tab or write to us at contact@hinduparenting.orgPlease note that questions will not be answered on email.Do subscribe to our substack and follow us on our social media handlesTwitter: hinduparentingInstagram: hinduparentingTelegram: t.me/hinduparentingFacebook: facebook.com/groups/hinduparentingTranscriptRekha: Namaste! Welcome to the Hindu Parenting Podcast, Part 2 of the Holi Episode. Please join us as we continue the fascinating discussion about the Festival of Holi with some more stories from Neha ji, founder of Shaktitva and a Devi Upasaka.Neha: So, just to complete the story, eventually when all of these attempts to, you know, to kill Prahlad fail, and Hiranyakashipu decides to take the matters into his own hands and he finds this unarmed child. In a fit of rage, he tries to strike a sword with. So, he, you know, the child ducks and the sword hits a pillar. And from that pillar, Narsimha Avatar appears. And now Narsimha Avatar is the half-man, half-animal. So, it's not either, the boon was either animal or man. But this avatar is half-man, half-animal. And this is the most, you know, interesting element of the story.So, this Narsimha Avatar, Sri Vishnu takes him to the, at the, what we call dehleez , like the corner of the house. Yeah, the threshold of the house, exactly. He stands on the threshold of the house, takes this demon, puts him on his thigh, so that he's not on the ground or on the sky. He's on Sri Vishnu's thigh. And then he claws his heart out with his claws. So, it's not a known weapon. Yeah. And he does this at exactly a dusk when it is neither morning, day or night. Shalini: Sandhyakaal!Neha: Yeah, sandhyakaal, like the mixing when it's neither day nor night. So, he finds that exact combination that will defeat that very ingenious boon. And that's how, you know, Hiranyakashipu is defeated. Finally, Prahlad gets to witness his Ishta in the raw form, and he is blessed. And then Prahlad takes over the throne and continues the lineage of Sage Kashyap going forward. So, that Holika moment. Shalini: You said the story so beautifully.Neha: Awww! Thank you!Rekha: Nehaji, I love the part where the puzzle gets solved. I can see how kids can get absolutely fascinated by this, you know, if parents can just tell their kids, you give this puzzle; even if your kid doesn't know the story but tries to solve this puzzle.“Neither during the day nor night”. I mean, it's just too beautiful.Neha: It's ingenious. Yeah, absolutely. And see, the moral of the story is right, like you can, first of all, like I always wonder these people, they put hundreds of years of sadhana or many lifetimes of sadhana to get a boon from their Ishta, right? Like imagine, you're sitting in extreme penance, like Ravana's penance and then Hiranyakashipu's penance is not ordinary. This is like almost hundreds of years of extreme penance, even thousands of years by some accounts. They sit and you ask for such a stupid thing. I mean, your Ishta is standing in front of you deviate and you ask that you should not be killed. Why is that? I think that shows the nature of who we call demon is not by birth or lineage, you know, these are Kashyap rishi's sons, like these are the most exalted lineage you can find in all of Bharat Varsha. And that is evident because they have the capability to do this penance for eons. This is not ordinary feat in itself and the lineage is definitely blessed. So it's not by birth or by previous or whatever is the other ways of people understanding it. It's not about descent, it's not about race, it's not about caste, it's not about all of these things. It's about what you do with your abilities, right? What are your desires? Shalini:Yeah, absolutely. That is true.Neha: Yeah, as a Devi upasaka, when Ma comes to me and I ask something so stupid, I think like, you know, I should be banned from sadhana… do that if somebody does things like this. But you know, devatas are when they're happy, they're happy, they will give you what they want as long as it's within - as long as it doesn't defy the laws of nature. And so you can find several stories where Brahma is giving boons or Ma is giving boons or you know, Shiva is giving boons and these, depending on who is getting the boons, people do different things.Rekha: I'd like to bring up one point here. You live in the US. And I know that about three years ago, just pre-COVID, there was this thing in US universities about Holi against Hindutva, where Holika was painted as a Dalit woman. And you know, many people tried to spread this rumor in colleges that there's something very bad going on when Holika is burnt because she is an oppressed woman and she's a Dalit. And so I know that a lot of Indian children got swayed by this. I'd like you to weigh in on this because..Neha: yeah, absolutely. So actually, with the exact incident you're talking about, led me to write a two-part article on Holi on Shaktitva blog. The part where I explain what Holi is and the many colors of Holi is one article. And then there is a second article called “Let the Subaltern Speak”, in which I kind of explore exactly this point. So first of all, like logically speaking, you know, a lot of these claims are absurd to the point of ignorance. Like they, they rely on the fact that a lot of people don't know about these stories and the legends or all the meanings behind what we do as a culture. And that's part of colonialism, you know, just detaching us from our roots is definitely part of the colonial projects.So that now that, you know, the urban audience has already detached very few know the story of Holika or why we do this, you can twist the argument in your favor.So there are two main articles that led to this Equality Labs protest that were challenged by it. So basically this Equality Labs organization cited two main articles in their write up for Holi against Hindutva. One of them was from Pradnya Waghule, which said ‘Reading caste in Holi- the burning of Holika, a Bahujan woman'. And the second one is the Equality Labs, its own article, ‘why do we say no to Holi' In both of them, you know, I am not going to critique the whole blog, because it's ridiculous. But you can see a very clear indication that this is nothing but Hinduphobia. So Waghule herself says that she's only only ever lived in cities all her life. Right. So the what I'm trying the reason I'm trying to highlight that is because she has no in-first person knowledge of these traditions. Right. Whereas, you know, most of our families are just two generations ago, we were living in villages. So that's number one. Now this reading of Bahujan woman of Holika - Holika's existence comes from this story that I told you about. She is Hiranyakashipu's sister. Hiranya Kashyapu and Hiranyaksha are very clearly Kashyap Rishi's sons. So Kashyap Rishi is like, you know, one of the Saptarishis. So obviously he's the ultra ultra Brahmin, not even ordinary normal Shukla chukla or, you know, Pandya Brahmin is the ultra Brahmin, like he has an entire Gotra named after him.And he these are the first one, not first one, but he is like, yeah, these two are sons from Kashyap Rishi. So by caste, essentially, because it's a paternalistic tradition, it happens, they have become Brahmin. And so Holika is a sister. So that means she's a Brahmin woman, you know, by legend, which is where she's mentioned. Now, what the reality is, these people when they're mentioning these instances of Holika being worshipped in tribal areas, they are confusing Holika and Holi Mata. Now, Holi Mata is indeed worshipped in many parts of the country in many, many tribal traditions, including my hometown. Now, Holi Mata has nothing to do with Holika.What happens is many of us, many of our tribes are traditionally like the Kula Devi is a Devi, right? The Kula devatha is a Devi. And so usually anything auspicious, Devi has to be worshipped. So when you do that, and usually what the tradition goes that in specific instances, for example, if you're doing the Gauri Pooja, a specific form of Ma is being worshipped, that's why it's called Gauri Pooja. So in the same way, during Holi Mata, a specific form of Ma is being worshipped and a specific type of worship is being done, that ritual only happens around Holi. And that includes your offering, the same colors are offered, new clothes are offered, when the dahan is done, that bonfire is done, a part of that bonfire, ashes are brought to the Mata and so on. So like in the Prasad, this Naivedyam is first created. So that's why we make gujiya after the dahan, and then gujiya is first offered to the god. So if we were in the villages, we would offer it to the Kula Devi. And then eventually it will be distributed. So for that particular purpose, a Murti or a makeshift clay idol is created. And all of the village will gather around and offer the blessings over there, like they'll put the offerings in that on the clay idol.So that is that clay idol is called Holi Mata. So now confusing Holimata with Holika is silly because the same people also do the bonfire. So why would they do the bonfire if they were worshipping Holika later? Then why would you celebrate her death? Just two minutes before! They are not related. Now in other parts of India, you can actually see that Holimata, that makeshift idol, is also taken on a Yatra like Ganesh Chaturthi. So they also, the Visarjan happens and so on, like the same process, which is typical for us, like whenever we have a makeshift idol like in Ganesh Chaturthi or in Durga Puja, once the process is completed, it is done - Visarjan into some form of water body. So that also happens. So those processions will chant Holi Mata Ki Jai or something like that. And that's what these urbanites who actually want to speak for the subaltern without getting to know them, without getting to live their lives or understanding their tradition and faith systems, this is how they confuse people. So in this imagination, because she is the goddess of the tribal people, she becomes a tribal deity because they've already confused it and they're not familiar with these ideas of how Holi Mata is constructed, like on a makeshift thing and all of those nuances are not known. And so they will do this confusion and then they will suddenly Holika, the daughter of Kashyap rishi becomes the Dalit woman all of a sudden. And now nobody from the Bahujan parts of India is coming to read this English language article meant to be circulated in USA to correct it, right? Nobody's going to do that. And so and the rest of you are saying we hardly know anything about why things are happening. So we are not also correcting it. So that's how you get to circulate these, you know, false narratives. And it was actually very offensive, because targeting Holi like that. And here is the thing, you know, if you are, let's say, even if I were to imagine this concept of Brahminical Hinduism versus non-Brahminical, Brahminical tribal Hinduism, Holi is the least Brahminical of all, you know, celebrations of Hindus. Like, you know, if you see the typical hallmarks of what is what, how these people define Brahminism is - at least a Brahmin needs to be present, no? Usually all some festivals you require a priest to come and do some puja, but Holi requires the presence of no priest. Right. As I mentioned, in fact, it's a challenging of social norms and mores.Then the tradition inquires, like it requires no particular, like you usually offer it to your own gods, your own deities and a Kula Devi. But it does not require any elaborate temple visit or anything like that. Right. So how, why would, you know, if this were to be confused, check, if we were to put it in these two arbitrary criteria of Brahminical versus non-Brahminical, this is very fundamentally indigenous tribal and adivasi in origins. Right. So, so the entire basis of attacking an indigenous authentic tribal festival, which is like, in fact, one of the biggest festival for many tribes in India as a, you know, fascist thing and trying to disparage it this way and especially targeting American universities is insidious to say the least.Now, are we saying that Vedic traditions are not uninhibited? They are not, you know, connected to Mata or they are not connected to Kula Devi? No, it's a beautiful spectrum. Right.How, what happens now in a traditional, let's say, let's find a simple example in a traditional homa. Right. If you're doing Rudrabhishekam in your home and you are the Yajman and pundits have come and they're conducting it for you. What happens? Right. The starting is you'll do the cleaning of your hands. You'll remember Sri Vishnu for that. Right. Then you will start by remembering your Guru, your ancestors, your Kula Devi and Sri Ganesha. Right. Not, I messed up the order, but basically this is the, like, start with Sri Ganesha, then your Kula Devi, then your ancestors, your Guru. This is the beginning of every homa, every puja, everywhere.Right. Now, if you had, if you were in living in a place where you had access to your Kula Devi's murti, maybe you put it in your temple or maybe you are living in a place where your Kula Devi temple is nearby and that's where you're conducting it. When you are remembering them, it will involve an offering to them immediately. And this will be guided to you by the priest himself. Right. So he's not, there is no distinction between vedic gods and these gods, right.It's a beautiful spectrum. One cannot exist without the other. So the, now, whether you're reading it from the Shastras or the Puranas or you're telling folk stories, it does not matter. Right. That's just the ritual or how should I say levels of ritualism. If you were to do it at your home by yourself, you probably don't know all the Sanskrit verses. So you do it in your mind. Right. You remember the deity and you have, maybe you have a mantra or maybe you don't have a mantra. Maybe you have a Chalisa. For example, in North India, we have these avadhi verses, which serve as the mantras. So Chalisa is our collection of 40 verses or you have sometimes, you know, these, these arathis, for example, these songs that we have constructed for the singing the legends of our gods, Om Jai Jagdish hare being the most prominent one. So we have all of these different levels and ways of worship. Now, some people do it in a very elaborate way where sometimes you need a priest because it's actually too elaborate and it's not possible for some unless somebody is trained in that ritual for tens of years, which is what often priests do. It's hard for a normal householder to start doing it without training. And also it's not recommended to do it without training either. So depending on the level you're doing, for example, in Shivaratri that just passed, most people will do it in their homes. Right. If they have a lingam at home, they will do a simple Abhishekam at home. If they have, if they're going to a temple, then they'll, you know, put money for a Rudrabhishekam for the temple priests to conduct it. Or sometimes people will arrange for a priest to come and do a homa at their home. It's different levels of the same festival. All of them are valid. All of them are common.Rekha: So Neha Ji, you brought up this very, very important point of two traditions coexisting harmoniously. The universal story, the Pauranic story of Holika dahan, the Hiranyakashipu story, and also the Holi Mata Kuladevi local traditions, which are typically known as the Desi and the Margi traditions within Sanatana Dharma. So the interesting thing is that there is really no conflict. And this thing happens over and over again in our tradition, right, with the festivals, with customs, dance, music, and so many things. And I'd like to say here that I think this is not a bug, but a feature of Sanatana Dharma. Any thoughts on this?Neha: Thank you for that software engineering reference. And you're absolutely right. No, so exactly right. So I think, you know, sometimes I find myself browsing through an article that some colonial, you know, neo-colonial Indologist wrote, and they seem so confused, right? If you read the research papers that get published in Indology journals, they are just, you know, it's like it's impossible for them to parse the continuity of this tradition. So sometimes they will be looking at, you know, let's say they'll go to a rural Kuladevi Mandir, right? And they'll see, let's take for an extreme example, let's say they'll see a Bali ritual, right? And then a few, even in Tamil Nadu, let's just take the example of Tamil Nadu. If you go to the rural villages, there are still like some Kuladevi Kuladevata temples where Bali happens, you know, now with the colonial government banning it and then our modern government continuing colonial traditions, you know, officially it's banned, but still happens. Then you cross- Shalini: I think there is a temple in Kerala also, no? The Muthappan temple. Neha: Not just one, not just one temple. Shalini: Yeah, many, many temples.Neha: A lot of places where you have to secretly do this because, you know, our own government has turned against our traditions or, you know, some places where it's relatively open, but it happens. And then you cross a few kilometers and you come to the heart of, you know, say Chennai and you go to a Vaishnava temple or a Shaiva temple, like, you know, Iyengar temple or an Iyer temple and you're suddenly like, this is like very organized, you know, we have a lot of learned gurus who have given like volumes and volumes of very detailed documentary, like documented evidence of everything that they found. And, you know, somehow for these people who come from the West, it looks like these two traditions cannot coexist each other with each other. And the reason they think that is because they're bound with this Christian mentality, where paganism, which was a pre-Christian tradition of their lands, was considered or labeled as backward and, you know, not civilized by the Christians who came to dominate the space later on. So they see, you know, nature worship as uncouth, uncivilized or, you know, the thing that uneducated people do. And this has also been indoctrinated to us in our education, right? Because our education is also colonial. So every time like you have, I'm sure you have read somewhere that, you know, even in our own books that the people, ancient people worshiped Sun because they did not understand its power, right? And so the idea is that the only reason you worship something is because you don't understand it. And so it becomes a myth. And so therefore science becomes a way to dispelling that myth. And, you know, Christianity brought us to the light. And so the old gods lost the power. This is all very, very standard European Christian commentary. This is how they understand their own past. And their present, which is Christian and then eventually post-Christian. So now they use that same..Shalini: So they project that on our system.Neha: Exactly, exactly. So they project that on our system. Because for them, when they look at, say, Kanchi matham, right, it looks very organized. It looks a little bit centralized. The priests over there are learned. They talk in, you know, high philosophy. And so on, and they can, you know, hold themselves up to any debate. They are, you know, they're experts in science, math, whatever you want them to be. And so this is like, you know, high philosophy is revered, revered as, exalted culture, more civil. And so they see reflections of their Orthodox church in this. And then they look, few villages down, they look at the common villager, who is, you know, just showing pure Bhakti to the Devi. He is also following Tantra. Here is the thing, right, even these temples, the Kula Devi temples are also established as per Agama Tantra. So these, these are still very much rituals that have been told to us, passed down generations of generations through sadhakas, through practical, practical knowledge, right? But because in, in these, to these external observers, it does not appear connected, you know, because unless you are completely disconnected and you're doing some high-falutin philosophy, you're not like, you know, learned enough. So you have to talk in abstract. Suddenly, when you translate that to actual rituals, it becomes old and childish and, and, you know, superstitious and what not. So this dichotomy from their own society, they project on ours. And that's exactly what happens when they look at these traditions.So when they look at the grama traditions, and here is the thing, Dharma clearly says there are many, many acharams, right? There is Vedachar and there is Lokachar, right? And there is not, it is not like a hierarchy. It is not like Vedachar is better than Lokachar. Both are absolutely important. And it is the context that defines which, you know, acharam has to be used and in which circumstance. And so this is, you know, these, all of these interconnectedness is only understood, a lot of this, like even you and I, a lot of us understand this implicitly because we've grown up in this tradition. And, you know, one basic requirement of Indology is that if you've grown up in the tradition, then you're not qualified to speak on it. Because that's the, again, the colonial lens, right? Like, if you're a brown person, you can't possibly be objective in to look at your tradition correctly. Of course, white people can look at white, white culture correctly, but brown people, you know, we have some racial defect. And that's why we can never be objective about our culture unless we prove it to them by proving our atheism first.So all of this, you know, this is a very clever structure created so that their lens remains dominant. So even when a brown person enters these, you know, these academic institutions, you have to prove that your way of thinking has been whitened enough. And that is why they are completely unable to understand these traditions and the beauty of this, this continuity of this tradition, right? Like tantra, whether it's Agama Tantra or Dakshinacharya Tantra or whatever kind of Tantra is learned knowledge. It's practical learned knowledge, like some, you know, great upasaka did years and years and decades of sadhana, found like a point where equally in fact, it is said that there are many Tantric upasakas who have reached a stage where they can access their past lives upasana also. So all of the things that they learned in their past lives, they can collect, remember all of those memories, right? And then they have a bigger picture. And then they try to bring that bigger picture and they try to give you the rules of how to do that for yourself, right? Like they can't just disseminate the secret, you won't understand. So you have to kind of just, they can only show you a path that doing these things in this particular order through this method will lead you somewhere where you can see the truth for yourself.That's Tantra, right? So that's the marg, that's the path that has been given to you. Now it may or may not, Tantra basically distills all of this down to a process. Whereas the Vedanta and other Darshanas, they are more focused on the philosophical end goal. So there is a little bit more philosophy associated with these other paths and less with Tantra, but that does not make these local understanding that we have learned over and built up over generations and generations less valuable, right? And that is exactly how every Indigenous culture has it, right? There is a reason why North American Indigenous people and even Africans, they had so much importance to the elders, right? To the ancient ones, the wisdom of the elders.Why was it valued? It wasn't just a quality of age, that wisdom followed from generation to generation. It was imparted by the ancestors to their future generations when the people felt ready.Rekha: Now this dichotomy, maybe you can analyze the visuals of Holi using this dichotomy too, right? Because Holi being so colorful and so visually appealing, I do know that a lot of photographers converge on Vrindavan just to take photographs of this spectacle and then publish it across the world. But I think a lot of this dichotomy comes into play there also and it has been commercialized quite a bit is what I hear. Neha: Oh absolutely. So you know, the dominant image in the mind of the West is when you are civilized, when you are wise, you are not, you behave a certain way, right? Like, you know, how British were, you were all stuck up and then you know, you behave like you have to act proper and whatever. And so if you're not doing that, right? If you're literally just having fun, that's lack of civilization, right? Lack of civility. And we've learned that even in our minds, we have at some point integrated that.So if somebody is behaving like they're just very, you know, acting very demure and very, you know, quiet and not letting their emotions out, all of that is a mark of manners or civility. And every time you let your hair down and like if you're angry, you're yelling, if you're, you know, happy, you're laughing boldly, all of that is, is, you know, lack of, you know, decorum. So we've learned those behaviors. Rekha: Nehaji, we often see pictures from Mathura and Vrindavan for Holi. Yeah. So is this like the center where it all started and what kind of celebrations are usually done in these places? Neha: Oh, actually, I mean, I don't know if it started there, but it's definitely a very important focal point of the Holi traditions in North India. And the part of the reason is because all of when you, when you listen to Shri Krishna's Rasleela stories, Holi actually plays a very interesting part there. In fact, it comes, the reference comes from his Balakanda to the time he is doing the Rasleela. Yeah. So in fact, because Krishna's birthplace and place where he grew up, are so central to the areas around Mathura, so Mathura, Vrindavan and NandGaon and all of these, they are very, you know, they celebrate the Krishna connection also during those Holi celebrations. So, in fact, when Vrindavan Holi is so very, very famous, in fact, if you just Google it as a most, you know, the most of the Westerners are fascinated by this particular Holi celebration. And I even know of people who try to visit Mathura specifically just to witness the Holi. And so it's actually fairly elaborate. And one of the, this is actually worth mentioning, Vrindavan's Holi lasts for seven days. And just the color playing part. So like the playing part lasts seven days. Everywhere else, we have one day of Holika Dahan, which is the bonfire ritual, and the next day is the playing colors part. But Vrindavan, the thing goes on for a week. And the first Holi in that day is called Laatmaar Holi, right, and translates to being beaten by a stick Holi. And there is, there is actually a legend behind it. So what happened is, it's part of Rasleela stories of Sri Krishna. So Sri Krishna, who hailed it from Nandgaon, he was visiting Radha in Barsana, which is where she used to live. So he was visiting her. Radha and her friends in Barsana on Holi. And he teased Radha and the other gopis so much, right, that they got really annoyed and they started hitting him, him and his friends with a stick and they chased him out of the city. So it's part of the whole like the Rasleela, the play, and he used to be like a notorious prankster, right. So you would run away with the clothes and whatnot. So he was here teasing them and playing pranks on them a lot. And so they got very annoyed. And so they chased him out of the city. So in sync with that legend, now men from Nandgaon will visit Barsana every year, you know, being acting like their Krishna story. And then the Barsana women will basically beat them up with lathis.Shalini: It happens to this day? It happens to this day?Neha: Exactly. So in fact, now this tradition has spread outside Barsana also, in many places they do this. But that is the, that is the role play that's happening, right. So they are Krishna's friends, the men act like Krishna's friends visiting the gopis and the women act like the women of Barsana act like they are the gopis. And so they basically, you know, reenact that scene. And this especially happens outside the Radharani temple in Barsana, like that's the specific part. And this is one of the most famous temples dedicated to Radha Ma in India. And then obviously you sing and dance and you know, we are very happy people. We drink thandai and all sorts of sweets are eaten and nuts and all of that fun stuff happens. But then one of the other days is Phoolon wali Holi where you play with flowers. Then there is another day where the people play with mud. It's not pleasant but it happens. And then the actual colors Holi. And in fact, Shalini: That makes it for three more. Three, four, one is flowers, one is the mud. Neha: Yeah. And one is colors four and I think the three more. Yeah, I don't remember exactly.Shalini: But these are very interesting, very interesting. Rekha: But but at the same time, there is a lot of shock value or, you know, some kind of an intrinsic value in all these visuals, right? You do see international media using a lot of the Holi and then, you know, coming to something like the widows of Vrindavan. You see that every year the media puts these very nice colorful pictures which I believe are actually sold by the international media. INeha: In fact, it's big, it's big money. Like a right picture can the copyrights can be translated throughout the world and it can actually make like quite a decent sum. So photographers from around the world gather around and then the, you know, they will just take captionless photos. And then the caption is added by the whoever is looking at the picture. So actually, you brought the brought up widows of Vrindavan. I actually have a Twitter thread where I analyze this! Ever since I joined Twitter. This was 2009. I've been noticing these headlines, right? “Widows of Vrindavan break taboo, break tradition and celebrate Holi!”. Now I actually did an analysis. I just take this phrase “widows of Vrindavan play Holi” and I append a year to it, right? And you can see these stories coming back from all the way up to 2012. So it's been 10 years and every year apparently, those widows break tradition and celebrate Holi and, you know, they break taboo and celebrate Holi. Every year they will announce it as if it's a new thing. So that just makes you question, was that ever a taboo in the first place or is just a myth that media has created that they just like to break because it's a catchy headline? Well, so this is absolutely like it makes a lot of money and from you can find those articles from, you know, they get sent through those news agencies like ANI and then they republished internationally. It's big money. Some of those photos can actually fetch you a very pretty penny, especially like there's so many aerial shots of those of Vrindavan Holi too these days, a lot of them like so. In fact, if you go to during Holi time, if you go to Vrindavan, you'll see a flock of international photographers over there just trying to get those pictures. Rekha: No concerns of privacy? I mean, I'm just wondering for the western world is so big on privacy, but is there no compunction in you know, preying on somebody's personal space. Neha: I very much doubt that they get these contracts like the privacy waiver signed. Exactly.Rekha: You know, let's talk a little bit about the colors. So these colors, there are some typical colors that are used predominantly. I see most of the people using a kind of a magenta color. Neha: So yes, so that pink is very common. The most common probably is pink. And then yellow is very common. Then nowadays, so almost every color on the spectrum, you can find you can find like light blue, powder blues. And even these days, pastels have come into fad. Also organic colors are appearing nowadays. This is interesting.Rekha: This is an interesting variation. So initially, I think we didn't need an organic color because because obviously all color was organic. Flowers and herbs is what I hear. And that specific bright colors that were made from the powder of certain dried flowers. Is that right?Neha: Yes, exactly. So the yellow was actually a mix of turmeric and marigold. And I don't remember the pink came also from a flower. But these days, so they could become a much brighter pink, at least that's what my nani used to say. But yeah, the definitely some colors are more predominant. Although nowadays, again, most of it is made being manufactured in factories. So you get pretty much every color there is. Shalini: Yeah, there's so much of talk about these being chemical colors and not very good for the skin and all. How much truth is there in that?Neha: growing up, I did have at least some like at least for a couple of years, there definitely was some sort of adulterated color coming into the market that was harsh on the skin. But these days, people are like too aware and especially depending on, but here is the thing, you can't control what color gets put on you. You can buy good colors. But then if somebody else buys whatever colors, then you're at the mercy of that person. But again, I think like cheaper colors as usual, you'll find some adulteration there. But mostly nowadays, there are big companies, just like the fireworks for Diwali, there are big companies dedicated to doing this. So if you buy like those brands or if you make at home, sometimes I've seen people starting to make themselves by grinding flowers. So those options are also there. But you find like very easy to find safe colors, to be honest.Shalini: Okay, so now you play with these colors, what do you do to take them off?Neha: That is this mystery thing called Ubtan. Yeah, I'm glad that you asked about removing the colors. So that's a whole entire exercise in itself. So basically, we make this very gooey paste made of all organic elements found at home. So you take either besan, which is ground chickpea flour, or you take wheat flour, your regular aata, and you mix haldi in it. And you put like turmeric, and you put oil, and you put water. Now, it should be a little bit more on the watery side, because you want it to be sticky. But the oil is there so that it removes well also, like when it comes up, all of it should come off. But if you have less oil, then it won't stick long enough. So the point is that you stick, and it's also used during the wedding ceremonies, by the way, after Haldi. So when you do the Haldi ceremony, it's actually Haldi and oil ceremony. So one round is done with Haldi, one round is done with oil, and then Ubtan is applied. And so the Haldi is, etc., is taken off by the Ubtan. And the idea is that obviously, it's very good for your skin, because putting turmeric is very, very nourishing for the skin. But also that consistency of the Ubtan, it brings out all the impurities of the skin. So in this case, that being colors. So colors come off very nicely with Ubtan, for the most part, unless you're, I'm talking about those my naughty cousins who actually pour that nasty chemical thing on my head, those ones don't come out easily. But the powder ones come off very easily, like with Ubtan, you know, between Ubtan and shower are fully covered, like you won't even, people won't even realize that you played Holi. Shalini: Okay, so I was just going to ask about that, you know, does it go in one day or it takes a few days to get rid of these colors? Again, powder? I can work with remnants of the color, you know, at the next day, it's not all good. Rekha: I call it a post-Holi glow, you know, you can always pick that on people. Neha: 100% there is a post-Holi glow, because you're so tired and you're so happy and you're so well fed by the end of this all, that you know, there's a post-Holi glow. But, but jokes aside, honestly, if you're playing only with powder or even with like, you know, diluted colors mixed in water, all of it comes out in one day for the most part. Unless you've been pranked with the thing on your head, then it will take a while. But I actually remember one of my best friends in school, she had like, you know, normal brown hair, but it's a slightly lighter color than the complete black hair that we usually have. So her hair was slightly brownish. And one time she came back after playing Holi and I kid you not, when she stood in the sunlight, her hair looked pink. This when we were not allowed to color our hair, because we were young children back then. So I think you got like a free hair color when there's not a lot of costs involved. But just things like that happen. Again, it completely depends on like the kind of Holi you play and you know, the type of people that, you know, come to your place to play with you. But for the most part, like, powder color 100% comes off with Ubtan. And it's also very good for your skin. So any kind of this harsh chemical or whatever, right? Like if you do the Ubtan treatment afterwards, it also kind of takes care of that. Like, and as I said early on, you have to be careful and put oil before you go out. And that way it will stain on your skin less if you have oil on your skin. Yeah, so for the most part, it comes out. Rekha: This is insider information.Neha: Absolutely. Shalini: So what a rollicking time we've had, you know, but I think now, I think you should speak about your foundation, Nehaji. What prompted you to start the foundation? What do you do? What are your projects, please? Neha: Yeah, absolutely. You know, that's a Shaktitva Foundation is a labor of love. It started around 2018, had to slow it down a couple for the last couple of years because of COVID and, you know, bereavement and family. But essentially, the original idea behind it, it's a decolonial, indigenous, feminist organization. And what I mean by that and this decoloniality and indigeneity approach from a Hindu perspective. So what essentially that means is this actually started around the same time when Shalini Ji you and I met for the first time. This was like the aftermath of Sabarimala. And, you know, we, I'm sure like all three of us were part of it in some way or the other. But one thing that became very obvious in the aftermath or during the Sabarimala protest for all of us Hindu women was that somehow our voice was being erased, right? This entire war was being fought in our name, right? Suddenly it was a Hindus versus women, you know, and the Hindu women were the least heard of all people. If you remember, like we were not allowed on TV debate, we were not, our opinions were considered, you know, fringe by some exactly some miracle, like, you know, majority of women were suddenly fringe. Anybody who basically did not agree with the five feminists of Delhi was fringe, right? So that that erasure is what led to the frustration that eventually led to the inspiration from my calling this Shaktitva Foundation. So the idea was that, you know, our voices need to have a place and not just the voice of a Hindu woman in India, but also this, the immigrant Hindu woman in growing up in America, right, or living in America. And the same thing that you know, because what happens is if we don't speak up, somebody else takes the mic and starts speaking for us, right? Whether we are the subaltern and whether we are an unrepresented group, if people don't speak up for their own groups, their names are misused and, you know, activists kind of take up that mantle of speaking on behalf of us, even if that is not the majority opinion, or even they forget the majority opinion, even if it is not even a minority opinion, then this will happen. And so we wanted to kind of set up a space where we can bring forth the lived experiences of a Hindu woman from the point of view of what we just did, right? Like we were talking about Holi from the lived experience of a person who has participated in it. And not just that, it's not just isolated to my personal experience, but also I try to kind of dive into the, when we do the research. If you see, a lot of people actually write for us, the articles and the work that we do focuses on bringing forth the original, authentic, indigenous meaning behind the things. And the reason is India and by extension, the South Asian activism circles is full of people who almost are kind of like the people who have been left behind by the colonialists, right? It's almost that they wanted to be taken with them, you know, ‘why did you leave us behind' sort of frustration that you see in these activists. And so they look at every time they sort of create this, you know, unnecessary rift in the society, it's because they're looking at things from a colonial lens, whether it is they're getting angry at Sabarimala tradition or it's not a concern for women that led to the creation of that controversy, right? It was that, you know, it is a colonial view. We must so that the colonial white man saviourism has appointed these brown saviours. And so they're now going to save Hinduism from Hindus, essentially. That's what's happening. So they're taking up for that, that colonial mantle of reform, and they're imposing all of these ideas on us in order to get some name and fame and they become those these heroes of who saved the women from oppressive Hinduism and so on. So whether it's the Sabarimala question, whether it is the Jallikattu again, no concern for actual animals or anything like that, whether it's the elephant controversy or whether it's in North India, the Kavadia controversy. Now they'll say these are rowdy men. Kavadiya men in Kavadia is the same when they become rowdy. 10 minutes later when farm laws happened, the same men who were actually doing Kavadia minutes before these are the oppressed category of farmers.So there is no rhyme or reason to it. So exactly that the point was that, you know, we wanted to create a space where Hindu women could find their voice and essentially take up that narrative and clear it up from their side. So we do a whole host of things. There's one is very important aspect is research driven articles like this one on Holi. I've done another one on Rakshabandhan and there's many more that are coming, not just on festivals, we also do on general issues and so on. And there is the other aspect of on-the-ground activism where we sort of try to help groups. So for example, we did a workshop with Bhutanese Hindu refugees who are living in America, especially the kids. And we did a workshop there about Dharma and specifically with the girls, about menstruation because menstruation is - like the menstrual restrictions are very strictly followed in Nepali and Bhutanese communities. And that becomes a very important propaganda point for missionaries to try to convert these kids. So we wanted to present the honest truth of why these rituals exist, like why are these menstrual restrictions are at all present in the culture and what are the significance, not prescribing them or, you know, or denying them, just presenting the truth of it. After that, it's up to you. Like as is always the case in Dharma. And similarly, we also did a project for to focus on the domestic violence survivors, Indian origin domestic violence survivors in America.That so we're trying to sort of create a space where we can dispel the fake issues and focus on the real issues and essentially, you know, move forward with that mindset.Shalini: So is this an initiative only driven only by you or is are you a team of a few people?Neha: No, we are a team of we're a team of a few people. We have few directors and after that, there is an advisory board. So the details can be found that also volunteers that work at different levels. Some of them are, for example, interested in conducting those workshops that I spoke about in their areas for a specific group. So we sort of arm them with the content and we help them and train those volunteers for those spaces. There's also like several other projects that are in the works just COVID kind of, you know, through a wrench and all of them. But but we're trying to sort of bring it up again. Hopefully this year, you should see a lot more action.Shalini: Sure. This sounds very empowering and well, such a misused word, but for lack of a better word, empowering our own women, you know, Neha: So we'll actually, I'll actually end with the quote. somehow it dawned on me while I was sitting in Sadhana. You know, I said, Hindu women are embodiments of Shakti and you do not empower Shakti, you bow before it. So that's why the name is Shaktitva, which is the essence of being Shakti. Now, this is not to be construed with this modern new agey idea of, you know, I am princess, I am a goddess type, you know, the wrong notions. No, we are talking about like a very sacred channeling of the divine energy that can happen when you are you know, when you are really devoted to your gods and your faith and to your culture and the indigeneity of it all. Like it's not, these terms almost seem to have become like negative terms, honestly, in the western space. But for, you know, as an indigenous person, it's all the same. It's a spectrum. These words are not disconnected at all. Rekha: Nehaji, I'm looking at your website. And there is a scheme, there is something called the Gayatri grants. Is that still operational? Is that something that can be used to encourage young people to write for you?Neha: Oh, absolutely. Yes. So Gayatri grants are not just even for writing. Even if there was a proposal that like that somebody wants to take up like a more elaborate research project towards anything, you know, towards something that brings together that aligns with the mission of Shaktitva. We are more than happy to sort of sponsor that activity because research itself, you know, is expensive. And, you know, so we want to encourage through this grant system, we want to encourage people to apply for, you know, proposals and come up with ideas because, as I said, like it's very difficult for one person to or a few people to cover the breadth of this issue. So if there is even if there's something very simple as you notice that there is a tradition that is unexplored, and it aligns with our mission, and you want to research it, you know, please submit a grant to us, grant proposal to us, the template is provided on the website. So you just have to fill that template up and send us a proposal and we'll evaluate it. And hopefully, like we can come up with a collaboration.Rekha: Can you tell us the name of the website for all the listeners? We will also be providing links to the website on our transcript. But can you just mention the name please?Neha: Yeah, it's Shaktitva.org. S-H-A-K-T-I, Shakti. And then, Shaktitva.org.Shalini: Great. Yeah, so I think we've had a one hell of a ride with you, Nehaji. It's been absolutely exhilarating, I would say. And I think this episode will not stay at 35, 40 minutes, but that's okay. But I think even our listeners will find it extremely engaging and beautiful too. So I think I'm absolutely floored by your quote. I would like you to end once more with the quote that you just mentioned and then we'll call it wraps. Neha: Absolutely. So the way we mentioned it is that Hindu women are embodiments of Shakti. You do not empower Shakti, you bow before it.Shalini: And with that, I think we come to the end of this edition of our podcast, and we will connect with our listeners in a fortnight's time. Thank you. Thank you, Nehaji. Thank you very much for spending so much time with us and giving us one grand experience of Holi. Thank you so much and thank you, Rekha, and we will meet with our listeners soon. Namaste. 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Episode Summary Brooke and Casandra talk with Why We Fight author, Shane Burley about conspiracy theories, false consciousness amongst the right, and how mythos get built to influence how people think. Guest Info Shane Burley can be found on Twitter @Shane_Burley1, on Instagram @ShaneBurley, on Mastodon @Shane_Burley, and on Patreon at www.patreon.com/ShaneBurley Host Info Casandra can be found on Twitter @hey_casandra or Instagram @House.Of.Hands. Brooke can be found at Strangers helping up keep our finances intact and on Twitter @ogemakweBrooke Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Next Episode This Year in the Apocalypse on 12/30/22 and every two weeks there after. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Shane Burley on Conspiracy Theor Brooke 00:18 Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcasts for what feels like the end times. I'm Brooke Jackson, one of your hosts today, along with Casandra. Today we have the honor of talking with the author, researcher, and journalist Shane Burley. We're going to discuss conspiracy theories or whatever rabbit holes that topic takes us into. But first we'd like to celebrate being a member of the Channel Zero network of anarchist podcasts by playing a little jingle for one of the other podcasts on the network. Here it goes. Brooke 01:29 And we're back. Shane, thanks for joining us today to talk about conspiracy theories. Would you tell us a little bit about yourself, including sharing your pronouns? Shane Burley 01:36 Sure. Thanks so much for having me on. My name is Shane Burley, my pronouns are he/him or they/them. I research the far right amongst other things. I've written a few books on it, Why We Fight from back in 2021 and Fascism Today from 2017. And most recently edited this big anti fascism anthology called an No Pasaran: Anti Fascist Dispatches From a World in Crisis. And right now I am working on a book with my co-author Ben Lorber for Melville House books, on anti semitism. Brooke 02:06 Nice, thank you. Yeah, the one you wrote back in 2017 - Casandra has a copy of that book. And when I realized that my beliefs align with anarchism, I was like, I should learn about what this is. And, you know, learn more about fascism, too. And I was like, Casandra, do you have a good, like, primer book on this for me? And she just went to the bookshelf and pulled that one out. It was yours! Handed it over. Shane Burley 02:33 Oh, awesome. That's what I was hoping for, when we wrote it because there wasn't a lot that was good and straightforward at the time, at least from our side. Casandra Johns 02:40 Spreading the good news about anti-fascism. Brooke 02:46 That was, it was a good piece for, for getting started and learning there. So thank you for writing that. And for your continued work. Shane Burley 02:53 Yeah, thanks so much for saying that, it's really kind. Brooke 02:56 So we wanted to talk today about conspiracy theories, and I'm just gonna start with a real basic question just to make sure we're all kind of on the same page as we're having this conversation, of what is a conspiracy theory? Shane Burley 03:08 And conspiracy theory is a theory about a conspiracy that is not true. More appropriately, it's one that could not be true. So I think it's distinguishing from actual conspiracies because there are conspiracies in the world. So, you know, a good comparison about this would be the killing of JFK. There's conspiracy theories that range from three people did it to 10,000 people did it. But no matter what one person had to engage in some kind of collaboration, so some kind of conspiracy is possible, which is separate from conspiracy theory. So I think we separate it from like the various kind of quote unquote "conspiracies" that lots of organizations and governments engage in just in day to day work, versus ones that basically come up against the basic laws of physics and how we understand the world to work, and specifically divert our understanding of how complex issues work by sort-of putting an element of fantasy into them. Brooke 04:03 So that kind of answers one of the questions that I've been pondering, maybe we can talk about it more? Casandra has been wondering about, you know, why conspiracy theories have become so mainstream. And my sort of corollary thought was, it seems like they're so appealing to people, you know? Those two things are kind of tied together - the mainstreaming and the fact that they seem to really appeal to people for some reason. Casandra Johns 04:28 Not even just mainstream, as in the rest of society mainstream, but mainstream on the Left. Shane Burley 04:37 I was interviewing a friend, Brendan O'Connor, who wrote a book, Blood Red Lines, about anti-immigrant kind of nativism and border politics. And he made a comment that I thought a lot about which was that he's kind of unsure about where the line between conspiracy theories and quote unquote, "false consciousness" lies. What's the difference between conspiracy theory, and what's the differencce between misunderstanding sources of oppression and how systems work, which is a common thing? Shane Burley 05:06 I think one of the realities about a conspiracy theory is that it is an attempt to liberate oneself; it is actually an attempt to do that. It's an attempt to explain people in power and explain your own disempowerment. And so in situations in which lots of instability or feelings of loss of status - whatever they are, real and imagined - when those things start to sort of percolate, conspiracy theories are the easier answer. They don't require a ton of political education they don't depend on a lot of shared reality, even. And our society depends really heavily both on false consciousness and conspiracy theories. Depending on how you put those lines. Shane Burley 05:48 Take the entire Republican Party: [it] has built a mythos on working class people, specifically, not elites, right? That's the language used. And their policy is entirely based around basically inculcating the rich and the people who own capital. So how do you explain both of those things? It has to be institutionalized false consciousness, which in itself engages a certain amount of conspiracy theories. How can you understand empowering the rich and empowering the working class at the same time? Those things don't comiserate. Except millions and of millions of people assume that they can. And so I think there's an institutionalization of that kind of thinking. Conspirarcy theories, the wild ones, actually aren't that far afield from that, you know? Because if you think about the way that things - just basic [things], like taxes and social services - versus the kind of benefits of the rich, it seems pretty obvious that when those who own capital are enriched that that money comes from us. I mean, it doesn't require a master's thesis to explain that. So you have to get millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions of people to basically avoid thinking about that, or to believe it's untrue. And so that, I think, is foundational to the way that we think about conspiracy theories because we all - not all of us, hopefully - but huge portions of us engage in some level of conspiracy thinking, Casandra Johns 07:03 You can tell me if you think this is accurate: it seems like conspiracy theories often try to blame individuals, rather than looking at systems for instance, it sort of frustrates me when people are like, you know, eat the rich. Which yeah, eat the rich. But like, "If Jeff Bezos would just, you know, redistribute his wealth, everything would be fine." But it wouldn't be because capitalism would still exist, and there would just be someone else super rich. You know what I mean? Shane Burley 07:32 Yeah, I think the kind of classic line on this is that conspiracy theories - and particularly anti semitic conspiracy theories, just as like the archetype for it - are one of the most effective defenders of capital because what it does is divert your attention away from a system and places it on supposedly corrupt individuals. And there's a couple of reasons I think this is really attractive to people. I think one is that it actually plays on bigotries really well, and validates them in a certain sense. So there's certain stories that people tell right? So one is that they're aggrieved and legitimately so. I would say that most members of the working class are having a problem, right? They're being exploited at work. They're not being paid, obviously, what they're worth; paying bills is hard. It's miserable. It's very upsetting, the things that we go through, even people who are reasonably affluent but not ruling class, it's actually quite difficult. And so that's a legitimate grievance. And I think that grievance has a lot of anger built up with it. And that anger inside people's bodies and minds is often indistinguishable from bigotry. I think it's actually those things intermix a lot. So it's the impulse that if someone is actually legitimately your oppresser in a dynamic, you know, your boss, there's an impulse to actually want to say something bigger to them. Shane Burley 08:45 There's a lot of research about people being pushed, and saying things and doing things they never thought they would in the direction of bigotry, simply as a way of harming those they think are harming them. And so what a lot of these conspiracy theories do - and populists conspiracy theories in general - is allow you to sort of indulge in that a bit. So it's not uncommon to focus on the effeminacy of the ruling class. So you'll see this a lot: "Jeff Bezos, look at his soft hands. He can never do the hard work like us." There's a certain kind of 'let's make them look effeminate. Let's make them look queer, code them as queer.' Casandra Johns 09:18 Also, the lizard thing, like talking about how they look like lizards Shane Burley 09:24 Very much about their appearance. I mean, if you look at... early 20th century socialist literature, the inordinate focus on making the capitalist class look fat, just absolutely rotund, as if they're consuming things that, you know, they're eating so much that you can't eat. You become small and they become big. So I think that allows, it gives us a twofer, right? That says, okay, yeah, they're the capitalist class, they're oppressing in that way. And also that discomfort you feel of fat people, those are now one and the same, and one actually mobilizes the other, like one becomes a weapon for the other. So I think that's an easy way to focus on that personalization. Shane Burley 10:01 And the other thing is, if getting rid of Jeff Bezos doesn't solve the problem, what the fuck would solve the problem? That's really scary. I think this idea that there are certainly targets in terms of the kind of super rich and stuff. But it's not, that's not enough. Like, what does it mean to go after a system of capital? What does that even mean? I think that's a really confusing prospect. And it's one that is really emotionally unsatisfying, when it gets right down to it. Casandra Johns 10:30 Yeah, cuz we haven't. We haven't imagined alternatives. Or, you know, the average person hasn't imagined alternatives to that. Shane Burley 10:37 Or how will you even get there? Like, what's the pathway to alternative? I think the idea of getting rid of Jeff Bezos, whether or not it's realistic, at least you kind of understand the physicality of what that would be. But what does it mean to communize the entire economy? I mean, what does it mean to actually look at your life and say, "How can I fix these really deeply laid traumas and undo them, and replace it?" That is just such a mammoth task that it's, I think, it's hard to build up a consciousness that's really easy, has a quick fix mentality that's easy to communicate to another person. It's a lot easier to say, you know - I've worked for unions, I've been a union organizer - to say like, "It's that boss, look what he's doing, look at what the car is driving, he couldn't do your job." Those things are easy. And they are true in most of those cases, but they're not the end of the story. And so I think we end up with that really foreshortened perspective because the other stuff is just so big. Casandra Johns 11:32 Yeah. And I wonder if... when we explore the big stuff we also have to look at the ways that we participated, which is difficult. Yeah. Shane Burley 11:42 Yeah. I mean... capital's really complicated now. And the way we, our lives, are intertwined in it is really difficult. Huge portions of the economy are made up of people that would have previously been considered petty bourgeois: freelancers, contract workers, you know. Is an Uber driver a business owner? I mean, there's these things that don't really make sense in the traditional kind of Marxist sense, are the ways we talk about activism and capitalism and wealth. And so it ends up being really complicated. And then when you add the dimensions of being, you know, white folks or in the Global North, that's sort of hyper exploited, under other countries, it's like, well, how does that relationship work? You know, does it? Do I see, am I doing that? Do I benefit from it? What does it mean to benefit from it? You know, I think that actually adds those layers of complexity to it. I think that's why this is the new story. I mean, that's why conspiracy theories are the story that we tell - it's a really important story. And like you said, it's not just the Right, it's the Left, too. Brooke 12:44 So why do you think that they have become so much more mainstream? Because they've always had that quality of being simpler explanation or an easy thing to point to, but now we're seeing them becoming more common. And as Casandra said, you know, more common on the Left as well. Like, what's the rise about? Why is that happening? Shane Burley 13:07 I think that it comes partially from the destabilization of kind of Western economies. The the center has collapsed out, so you're not having as much as moderate politics in general. The radical version of right wing politics is conspiratorial, it's necessarily conspiratorial, so the more radical it gets, the more conspiratorial it's gonna get. That's really, really important for how it builds up sort of an enthusiastic base of supporters, is built on conspiracy theories. Shane Burley 13:36 Again, the Left and the Right will build their energy on similar impulses, right? The impulse to liberate oneself. Well, if we're talking about, quote, unquote, "white working class" - which is a kind of an artificial category - but if we're going to talk about that in the kind of MAGA/Trump sense, they are people, like all people, who have diminishing 401ks and have, you know, rent they can't afford and stuff. Even though they're not disproportionately poor or anything, it's a general feeling of decline, right? So there is decline generally happening. And so that radicalization is going to be in the direction of conspiracy theories because if you were straightforward about right wing politics, no working class person would ever accept such a thing. I say, "So you're going to keep taxing me and then and then give tax breaks to rich people?" Which makes no sense when you think about it. "You're going to bust my union, I won't have as good of a pension?" You have to have conspiracy theories, and bigotries underlying that. So those simply just radicalized more. And they give a narrative, a mythology, to the real emotional turmoil people are living with. Stop the Steal makes a lot of sense if you feel like everyone's stealing everything from you. Like, you're always being stolen from, of course they can steal this election; "This election told me they were gonna fix problems and they stole it from me, just like they stole my pension, just like they stole my home in foreclosure." So I think those things are transpiring. Shane Burley 14:50 I think on the Left there is an increase in conspiracy theories because of the decline in political education and us talking things out. There's not a really good sense about systems. And there's also just a rapidly increasing sort of social network of sharing information that shortens it a lot. So instead of sort of talking about complex issues, it's a lot easier to package them in bite-sized bits. And those things become a lot more viral. Shane Burley 15:13 People also really enjoy thinking that they are participating in secret knowledge of some kind. Like they've been smart. They're ahead of the curve, they're ahead of the official information. I mean, Google search, you know, "Epstein didn't kill himself," and see all the people that have decided that they know something that the rest - everyone else - doesn't know... There's an effort to step past uncertainty, and confusion and complexity, and just kind of claim knowledge. And so that's, I think, an important part of how those discourses happen, and then they just happen so rapidly. Now, they just they progress so quickly. Casandra Johns 15:46 Yeah. I know deep down that conspiracy theories on the Right are ultimately more dangerous. But I get so much more frustrated when I see it on the Left because I feel like we should know better. You know, I was thinking about the, like, to the Right, Jews are dirty communists, and to the Left Jews are dirty capitalists. And one makes me more angry than the other. Shane Burley 16:14 It's interesting because we associate the Jew as the communist with the Right, and actually the Right use the "Jew as the capitalist" more. So for example, the second generation Klan would focus on Jewish capitalists. Part of it is that most likely a lot of the people in the Klan base hadn't met Jewish communists, and people in other countries might have met Jewish communists, you know? But this is one of the things I think is interesting is that there is just a rhetorical crossover that happens here, and actually, when you see - and this does happen, it's not it's not nearly the level that the Right or liberals want to make it sound - but there is moments of crossover when people from the Left take on really far-right ideas or can move to the far right, it has happened. And anti-semitic conspiracy theories is one of the primary ways that happens. Shane Burley 17:04 This sort of anti capitalism - I use the term fetishized anti capitalism, but you know, basically any enemies of capitalism are therefore my friends. And so even these kind of radical traditionalist forms of anti capitalism - these ultra conservative, nationalistic or fascistic forms anti capitalism - sort of start to feel like, well, they're opposed to the same systems, they must be the same thing. And that happens with with anti semitism. And I think we allow for this in all kinds of ways on the Left. Shane Burley 17:32 I mean, the amount of times I've been at international solidarity rallies where really despotic regimes are being - kind of like with signs and flags - simply because they're enemies of our enemy, either the US or the West, or Israel or something, or far right groups, are propped up because they supposedly are against the banksters... Their theory about it involves all kinds of like Rothschild conspiracy theories, and you know, they want a certain kind of Christian nationalism. So we overlook those really commonly when they are our enemies, or when they are ourselves. People are very soft on each other's conspiracy theories. Shane Burley 18:11 I mean, how many 911 Truth folks have you known in your life, you know? And those are fundamentally anti-semitic conspiracy theories, they depend on them. That's how they function. And this is true in the environmental movement. This is true, obviously, in feminist circles. It has different targets, different constituencies, but it's what we see with the kind of growth of turf-ism and that, these use of conspiracy theories to explain. So it's something that we're not prepared to sort of deal with. And we don't, I think, always communicate why it's a problem. I don't think there's a general consensus on the Left that it really is a problem. Shane Burley 18:51 I'll go back to the Epstein thing, you know, the Epstein case. It's really suspicious. People should probably look at that, but I don't know what happened. And I have no reason to believe it was conspiracy. I just don't, and the assumption by everyone jumping immediately into it sort of communicates to me that people feel totally fine, and engage in conspiracy theories when they have gaps of information, and everyone's pretty gentle on this. And that's not the most serious conspiracy theory. I'm not gonna put my stake in the wall in that. But I think we need to start talking to each other about that. Shane Burley 19:19 The other thing about this is that it's a losing strategy. You know, this, it's one of the worst ways of liberating yourself is to do it in accordance with a conspiracy theory because you will necessarily lose. We will always necessarily lose. There is no conspiracy theory that has ever led someone to an effective social movement to change anything. Casandra Johns 19:39 Ugh. Yeah. That's all I have to say. Amen. Brooke 19:49 Yeah, so you guys started getting into the the ties between conspiracy theories and anti-semitism. And there was a whole bunch that went on in that conversation that was just over my head here, that I did not pick up on. Casandra Johns 20:02 You can ask for clarifying statements. Brooke 20:08 I know, but you're on a roll, I don't want to interrupt. Casandra Johns 20:12 We try to make this digestible to someone who's not familiar with the topic. So you know. Brooke 20:22 But I am definitely curious to talk more about the ties between conspiracy theories and anti-semitism. I brought that up the other day and Casandra made the point of, I think you said something like, "All conspiracy theories eventually lead back to anti semitism" or something like that? If I'm totally misquoting you, please correct me. It is not a thing I've ever heard before. And I wanted to dive into that statement that you made and understand it. So I want to talk more about the links between conspiracy theories and anti semitism. Shane Burley 21:00 Anti-semitism has always held a conspiratorial element - a conspiratorial core even - before it engaged in what we would know as conspiracy theories today. So anti semitism, historic anti Judaism in Christianity - and when we say anti semitism, we're specifically talking about the type that was formed in Christianity, we're not talking about broad xenophobia against Jews. So for example, in the classical Muslim world, Jews were far from equal in Muslim dominated countries, but they [Muslims] didn't engage in the kind of like vicious, conspiratorial, genocidal anti semitism that you see in Europe. That's very much a European-Christian invention. But what they essentially did was, in the development of their theological differentiation they had to build on earlier libels around Jews as a sort of conspiratorial cabal of people that engage in really nefarious practices for misanthropic or even demonic reasons. And part of this has to do with the Jews' resistance to assimilation. Jews of 3000 years ago are not the same as Jews today, but there is a certain amount of, like, "We don't change according to societies that we're enbetted in or engaged with." There's a certain amount, for example, with Holika Jewish law things do have a certain continuity to them. And that's sort of threatening to people who want to remake entire populations of people. It's kind of inherently anti assimilationist. And it's very easy then to paint them as an outsider, ones who aren't playing by our rules and not part of our society. Christianity, in an effort to differentiate itself as a breakaway religion from the Jews, and focus really heavily on Jews sort of failing to understand the real spiritual message of their own scriptures, failing to live up to the promise that their religion. Like, "Christians are the new Israel" right? Then eventually develop that into open hostility, and then the suspicion that Jews are engaged in something really nefarious. Shane Burley 23:00 So the blood libel is an example of this: the idea that Jews are secretly kidnapping and killing Christian children to use their blood in different rituals. "Host desecration" is one; after the Catholic church decided that the the wafer - the host - is literally the body of Christ, they then started accusing Jews of stealing that host and stabbing it because they're so cruel. They have, you know, accused them of having pacts with the devil, engaging in all kinds of horrific things. And then at the same time: Jews, they weren't disproportionately moneylenders, but a number of Jews were involved in money lending because of their prohibitions in other industries. And then, of course, Christians used that as a propaganda tool, and basically kind of trumped up the charge. And so that populist anger was starting to intermix with the stories about Jews, and you get incredibly violent hostility. Shane Burley 23:46 I was talking with my co-author, Ben: I don't think at this point in history it's good to luxuriate in all the terrible stories of things that happened to Jews, I think that's almost, like, pornographic in a sense. But if you read pogroms that are kind of a mix of this theological anti Judaism and the reaction to the monarch, basically, they're targeting the Jews, instead of targeting the people who actually hold power. There's this kind of guttural rage, and the kind of cruelty that they're engaged in is totally off the map, it has no productive function other than just as much kind of creative violence as possible. And that's kind of a very particular impulse. And this is one, I think, is the flip side of the impulse to liberate yourself: to engage in oppression of others has some of that element to it. And it's very ephemeral. It's very kind of gut driven. Shane Burley 24:37 But those stories about Jews went through a lot of versions. A lot of ideas about Jews - Jews as moneylenders, Jews as people who steal from Christians, inherently dishonest people - those were secularized into what became known as anti semitism, opposition to Semitism. It was a kind of pseudo scientific idea that Jews had a particular ideology almost in their genes, and they were affecting society in particular ways. So the movement against them, the movement against semetic influence, was sort of productive movement to stop them from kind of degenerating society. The idea of how they're influencing society is that they're engaged in these cabals, either banking cabals, cabals involved in the media, you know, they're changing public perception, they're involved in legal professions, obviously, again, money lending, all forms of like banking and finance, in particular, all these kind of new industries and early capitalist environment. And so these are what we know as the most popular conspiracy theories - about secret societies, about Rothschild bankers, things like that - emerge out of that period. And that's the beginning of what we know today as a conspiracy theory. Shane Burley 25:39 A really coherent secular conspiracy theory, you know, it might have some religious overtones, certainly, but it doesn't argue itself necessarily in purely religious terms. All conspiracies that come later basically have the same format that was developed around this. They all have the same basic structure. And most conspiracy theories have lineages that you can trace back - one came from another one which came from an earlier one, and so on and so forth. They always come back to Jews. And most conspiracy theorists today hold that same anti semitic structure. So Q-Anon is a really great example of this. You know, Q-Anon rarely, quote unquote, "names the Jew." Names the Jew is something that open white nationalists do, right? They'll say, "Okay, this is typically the Jews." But instead, what Q-Anon does, is they'll use the figures of the cabal, they'll take all the structures of this earlier anti semitic conspiracy theory, they'll use verifiably Jewish names, or stereotypes associated with Jews, they'll take older pieces of those conspiracy theories, theologic pieces, and secularize them. So for example, they believe that a cabal of satanic Democrats with curious R last names are taking children and sacrificing their adrenal glands to extract this substance that they use then in rituals to intoxicate themselves. Right? It's familiar, uses a lot of sciency sounding words - Adrenochrome, which is not a real thing - but it sounds like... Casandra Johns 27:01 They were making the forbidden matzah or whatever, right? Shane Burley 27:04 Exactly. What they're doing is basically capturing Christian children and using them for their evil Hebraic rituals. But again, they don't always say - some of them do, increasingly, they do say Jews, but it takes just a tiny scratch on this. 911 Truth is a really good example, you know, where cabals of bankers - or you know, Israel, whatever it is, that's verifiably not involved - are accused of being involved. And the pattern for how this works has an earlier anti semitic conspiracy theory to it. So these are generally how those kinds of work. Casandra Johns 27:06 Can you can you really quickly explain what you mean by "ur" something? Shane Burley 28:40 Ur would mean the kind of universal base form. So the most origin point. So it's saying that ur conspiracy theory maybe means like the first conspiracy theory, or the kind of conspiracy theory that established the format for it, so you can look back and say, okay, it started here. What's the thing that these all hold in common? Then I think you'll see that in the blood libel is that they all hold those basic structural points in common layer. Shane Burley 28:48 In my book I interviewed David Newark, who wrote Alt America and other books about the far right and conspiracy theories. And he, you know, says that basically, the blood libel is the "ur" conspiracy theory. It's like the basic source of all conspiracy theories because the idea that small cabal of people are engaged in this really nefarious work of extracting goodness and turning it into something evil. So anytime you have a conspiracy theory, it's going to have this DNA. Is there any conspiracy theory that engages in a way that's not anti semitic? I think part of the problem is that we live in a globalized world. So other cultures have had conspiracy thinking in them, but the West has really exported anti semitism as a subtle cultural code. Shane Burley 28:48 So I mentioned earlier Muslim anti-semitism, obviously, there is anti semitism in Muslim-majority countries and some Muslim communities, but when you look at it, it actually looks much more like exported Christian anti semitism with some Islamic kind of branding, or like some opportunistic use of Muslim sources. It very much looks like a Western export. And I think that's what we're seeing now globally on conspiracy theories is that even if there was versions of these - and other cultures had conspiracy theories against diasporic people, you know, there's conspiracy theories about Chinese immigrants in Malaysia and there's conspiracy theories about Koreans in Japan, there are those - nowadays, the exporting and universalization of the anti semitic conspiracy theorists, the"ur" conspiracy theory, has affected all peoples sense of how they build those. So you're gonna find spray paint in Japan, that says, "The Jews did 911" in a place where those people likely had never met a Jew, and maybe no one in their ancestry line has ever met a Jew, right? So this isn't about Jews. So in that way, we globalized so effectively and exported our own bigotry so much that there is really no place in this conspiracy thinking that doesn't involve Jews. Brooke 30:06 You might say the genesis of conspiracy theories? (Laughter.) I learned so much in the last 10 minutes. I feel like when I go back and listen to this episode, I'm gonna play it at three-quarters speed and pause to ponder things. No, seriously, I really did. Thank you for the deep historical context there because a lot of that that was unknown to me, that I went, you know, "What, what?" Shane Burley 30:36 I also know it's a lot, too. And I think this is part of the problem is that in any given situation, particularly in situations of anger, how useful is it for me to explain to them what host desecration is, you know? I think it's actually hard to intervene in these spaces. And it's especially hard to intervene when there's really contentious stuff, like Israeli colonization of Palestine and stuff. So it's actually really hard with this very justified anger. And the targets of those angers are actually are coded as Jews. I think it's actually really hard to then intervene and say, "Hey, hold up, you're actually doing a thing. And it has a history and it's a problem." Casandra Johns 31:15 It also makes it difficult to talk about anti semitism in simple terms. I feel like sometimes when people ask me questions about it, that should be simple questions, I'm overwhelmed by the amount of information I'd have to transmit to give them proper context. You know what I mean? Brooke 31:32 I have literally been that person to Casandra. Casandra Johns 31:37 I was interviewing him and I was like, we should do an interview about this. Shane Burley 31:41 We transmute American racial taxonomies on to anti semitism that don't really fit, you know. The couple of interviewees that I had for the book that made this interesting point, they phrased it in an interesting way. And I think JFRCJ, Jews for Racial and Economic Justice, had framed it this way, as well: Only sometimes does anti semitism make Jews poor. It doesn't make us poor all the time. And in fact sometimes it stabilizes Jewish income. So for example, in areas when Jews would have been a hyper exploited population, they're allowed to have certain amounts of wealth as a way of defecting anger from peasant classes away from the actual rich people and onto the Jews. So they might not actually interact with a noble person, but they would interact with a Jew, and they might see the Jew having stable money, and there might be nice things in their home, and that would communicate to them: "This is the person that's exploiting me, rather than the Noble who I've never come across." And there's a certain kind of positioning of Jews in a lot of those situations. Shane Burley 32:40 You know, one thing we talk about in the book is this phenomenon of Jews, and the relationship of white Jews to whiteness, is that when white Jews were very openly accepted as white folks in the US, particularly after the Second World War, there was a kind of class jumping that took place. But what happened was that a lot of Jews - particularly what we call a kind of second wave Jews moving here in the 1920s - were very poor, a lot of them socialists, a lot of working in garment factories, union organizers. But basically, in these dense urban areas, they started to leave those urban areas as they were kind of coded as white, became middle class, and in a lot of ways conservatized, right? Israel was formed in 1948. There's other things that kind of made more conservative. And who moved into those areas? It was a lot of black folks, it's a lot of Puerto Rican folks, lots of communities of color, where Jews now might be the business owner. They might be the landlord because they kind of class jump. They might own the grocery store that all the folks in the community use, and have maybe jacked up prices, or they work and they're not being treated really well. And so again, that dynamic is continued of them being sort of the middle agent, you know? The Jewish shop owner does not control capitalism, but they are the person you might see. And so again, you kind of repeat that dynamic. Shane Burley 33:55 So it's not always that Jews are going to experience anti semitism in the way that black folks experience anti blackness in the same kind of structural way. And also the US is not foundationally built on anti semitism in the way that it's built on anti blackness and colonialism. So it works fundamentally differently. There are some cases in which it looks more similar. So for the Orthodox Jews, they are more likely to be, you know, hurt by police, they are more likely to be poor. There's a recent study that came out that if someone is coded as Jewish in employment, they're much, much less likely to hire them. There's usually other things that kind of go along with it... There's limited data on this, but it's not with someone who's coded as a secular Jew, it's more like if they're coded as Orthodox, where someone's different, seems like it might cause you a problem, or it might make you uncomfortable. Or if it feels like they hold Jewish qualities that are associated with unsavory-ness, you know, like large noses or weird ways of speaking. Or maybe they bring weird food into the office, stuff like that. So those things do actually happen, but in general, it works differently. Shane Burley 35:04 And so there's a certain kind of structural unsafety for Jews, they're always kind of worrying about whether the other shoe was going to drop because anytime there's instability Jews often get targeted in that. But that doesn't mean in the day to day they usually, you know, can't find a job, or [get] pulled over at disproportionate rates. So it works differently. It's hard for people to identify that. Shane Burley 35:24 This is kind of true in general when we're talking about oppression outside of really narrow terms, people generally have learned to understand things in a certain way, and dominant hegemonic discourses, and then learning new ways is really, really tough. I think it really, it's really clear, for example, in the way that the Left just seemed totally unwilling to understand trends and issues for decades, just totally looked like they couldn't compute how little they understand sex work issues, or body issues, fat issues. It's an unwillingness to see that oppression is actually different for different folks, either individually or as groups, and to sort of accommodate for that, and to think through how these things are complicated. And so we can't assume that one thing tracks with another, that you can talk about oppression in one situation and have it be the same for another. So I think that creates that problem you're talking about. So what are you going to do, you know? Sit down and say, "Look, we need to have a conversation about, you know, second century Egypt, BC, and how Jews are coded as this." I mean, it's, it's a hard proposition. Casandra Johns 36:32 We have to talk, we have to go back to 1905. Talk about Czarist Russia. (laughter.) Yeah. I'm wondering, so I'm trying to remember exactly how you phrased it. But when there's, when there's instability, that's when people tend to target Jews. And when there's instability, that's when conspiracy theories also seem to, like, foment as well as fascism. And I'm wondering if you can talk about how those things are related, especially because you write books about fascism and anti semitism. Shane Burley 37:07 I mean, fascism is also an attempt to liberate oneself, right? It's to liberate oneself by inculcating more oppression, like an auto immune response, right? We're gonna attack the immune system, as if that's actually what's harming us. We're gonna attack, you know, the movement to undo white supremacy because that may be what's harming us, rather than, obviously, the reverse. So it's tenfold by two things: One is a sort of a centralized identity, and one is a sort of social stratification. So the idea is that your identity is fixed and must be preserved. And that's an essential piece, usually racial identity, but sometimes it's others. And then the other thing is that all of humanity has to be stratified in this hierarchy, you... are white, because you are not black, and that whiteness is above blackness, for example. And this is a way of taking a privileged part of the class and telling them that their oppression is the cause of the progress of other parts of the class. So it's specifically about splitting the class. So in a way, it's very clear what it's doing, it's disallowing you the ability to organize amongst working people or non-rich people, to change the society that is better for all of you. Right? So it's very specific in that way. Shane Burley 37:42 Anti semitism and conspiracy theories are a story about your oppression that never get to the structural roots, that are usually factually untrue, and are able to kind of break potential solidarity. So I think where the immediate hardships of actual organizing are onerous, confusing, and frightening: conspiracy theories actually disallow that. So for example, if I really want to change the world, it's going to require things of me, right? I'm going to need to figure out how I'm participating in white supremacy so that I can actually collaborate with non white folks. And once we do that, it actually changes the world for all of us, right? This makes it much better for us, like I personally benefit from that. But getting there, it's a little bit hard sometimes. It's also confusing, I don't quite see it, I've never seen it before, right? And I'm actually running into this movement. It's telling me that my whiteness is actually the thing that would make me happy, that whiteness is actually the thing that historically kept me safe, that whiteness is actually what I'm trying to protect. It's not all this class conflict stuff. That's the lies that they tell you, you know, those cabals that actually want to take from you, they're all socialist movements. And I think, so, people are out there and confused. Shane Burley 38:19 And remember, bigotry, it's really interesting because it speaks to people almost like their conscience, it's impulsive. It felt really emotionally... it feels true to people. I can tell you what doesn't feel true is Marxist jargon... That's what feels true. A lot of times when someone speaks of it they're trying, you're searching for a way to liberate yourself. You're looking for a revolutionary story about it. And then someone comes in and tells you something that actually tracks with a lot of the impulses you felt historically because being raised in the society we are that teaches people to understand the world in a certain way. So I think those movements come up in that way. Shane Burley 40:12 You know, fascism is just a particularly modern and revolutionary version of something that happens all the time. It has historically happened for centuries, you know, this kind of impulse to actually, to barrel down into a hierarchy, to basically reestablish tradition and immobile social roles, and to focus on identity at the cost of all others. So, instability simply radicalized this people to change their lot. And that is what's happening at such a systemic level. Now, because capitalism is imploding, the environment is collapsing, the stasis of the 20th century cannot continue any longer. And so that necessitates radicalism of all types. Which is also why, in a sense, stay anti fascism, because if you want any kind of revolutionary movement that's positive, you're gonna have to reckon with the revolutionary movement that's not positive. Casandra Johns 40:58 Right? Seems simple enough. Brooke 41:06 So you're working in some real toxic material, they're dealing with fascism with anti semitism with conspiracy theories, and that's got to, you know, take a toll on you on your mental health and well being. And I'm wondering what you do for yourself to help take care of yourself? And spoiler: this leads into, you know, a deeper question, which is what we always try to get to in Live Like the World is Dying, is talking about how we help others, and then we help our communities with this. But what do you do for yourself? Shane Burley 41:38 Having Andy Ngo sub tweet you, or whatever. Shane Burley 41:38 I don't, I think the reality is that I don't have a good, solid answer to that question. I don't, think that I formed health in my life in a very perfect way. But there's a couple of things I kind of thought about. I mean, I think one is that I think researching the far right is actually sort of empowering to people. I think, you know, if I kind of tried to figure out what it is I'm doing here, like, why am I here, it's not just for productive work, it's not just that I want to produce something that will stop it, I think, is productive. I mean, that's certainly a part of it. But there's also a certain part of it about looking at something that seems frightening and confusing, and sort of under the illusion that if I keep listening, and I keep reading it, it will somehow make sense to me. And that gives me sort of control over my life in a way. And I feel like I can sort of manage it, even though it actually brings instability into my life, you know, putting my name on an article about it, and you know, get threats from proud boys or white nationalists, that brings instability and - Shane Burley 41:49 Totally, I mean, that is actually unstable. But there is a sense that looking at stuff, I think, brings a certain stability. You know, in doing this book, I was interviewing a rabbi from Chabad-Lubavitch which is like a Hasidic. He's kind of particularly like, left leaning. Hot Seat. But, you know, I was talking to him about anti semitism, particularly in Orthodox communities, which often gets discussed as being the more, sort of facing it more frequently because of their visibility, you know, an Orthodox Jew is very visible. And a Herati, or ultra-orthodox view is even more visible than that, you know, black hats, suits, people kind of know what they're looking at. And he was telling me about, you know, "I don't really concern myself much with anti semitism." And I was like, "Well why not?" He's like, "Well, it's not very Jewish." And he was like, "I actually fill my life with Jewish things. And this is particularly not Jewish." And so, you know, part of me is sort of like, the opposite to this is to engage, is to deny engage with things that aren't Jewish, is to basically say, "Actually, I am going to be really purposely involved in the antithesis to these." You know? Casandra Johns 43:58 There's also something very Jewish about deconstructing something like down into its tiniest parts. Shane Burley 44:07 No, yeah, they had all the quotes from from the rabbi about this, which I thought was great... We forget, I think, what we're doing here all the time, being involved in organizing, being involved in work of any kind is meant to create a joyous life. It's meant to actually do something, perform something in your life. And I think we get so obsessed with functionality, and we don't actually live those lives. And the answer to that is actually living those lives. It's building strong relationships with other people. It's engauging art and spiritual life, the things that give your life meaning. I think engaging in that as openly and sort of like flagrantly as possible is is what you do there. And it's interesting because what the far right does is it sort of shows you the vulnerable empathetic parts of yourself, right? Because it it appears in those cracks, it appears in the things that they target. So those in a way are how you come to learn about what's meaningful about yourself, you know. Jewishness is targeted. That's exactly what I find meaningful. Those are the things that I bond with other people about. That's how I find a path forward in my life. And so I think all those sorts of things, engaging as much as possible with that. And I think it's perhaps on us to think less about what we can produce and give to people, as much as we can be with them. I mean, this happens all the time in organizing spaces. I used to be the worst offender about this, you know? "No, that's bad organizing. No, that's just cultural production. No, that's navel gazing." No, I think we should engage in cultural production and navel gazing, like, we should make us happy. I think that there needs to be a lot more of that. And any kind of organizing work that people are engaged in, or when any kind of work needs to be in the service of that, and that's how it should be measured. And not like reproducing the same metrics or bosses do about how productive we should be and what that's about. Casandra Johns 46:03 We shouldn't just reproduce capitalism in our anarchist spaces? Shane Burley 46:07 I mean, this happens all the time, right? It happens all the time. We are ritually unkind with each other, unloving, unwelcoming. It's the absolute worst. And I think it's interesting because we used to talk about, statistically for example, abuse, domestic abuse, and sexual assault are commiserate in activist spaces as they are in the rest of the world. There's no actual difference. So like, all the people that are doing these workshops on consent, and addressing abuse and stuff, tend to reproduce those dynamics as much as anywhere else. I would say that unkindness and a lack of community is even worse in active spaces; they are not particularly joyous places to be. I find them very hard in a lot of ways to be in those anymore. And I think that's sort of what we have to do, we have to look really carefully about how we build those relationships in authentic ways. That's how I think you survived doing hard, kind of trying work, putting yourself in vulnerability. Vulnerable spaces only works if you can live in a comfortable, vulnerable way. So I think when I say I'm not really there yet, I feel like I that's the direction I would like to go. That's how I would stay sort of healthy in a way, if that makes sense. Brooke 47:27 Yeah, so part of our community response to conspiracy theories and conspiracy theory thinking, and fascism and anti semitism, is kindness and compassion for others. And when they show up with their vulnerabilities, accepting those? Shane Burley 47:44 Absolutely. I mean, there's this old IWW poster, it says something like, "If you're not talking to your co workers, somebody else is," and it has a picture of the Klan. Brooke 47:57 Hardcore. Shane Burley 47:58 You know, like, if you're in rural America, we aren't talking to folks, but someone is talking to them. And they are validating their experiences. And they're saying, "Yeah, that's really fucking hard." They're not going to someone who's losing their farm and a foreclosure and saying, like, "Just to be real, have you checked your privilege, and like, you're not the most marginalized person in this situation." That's a hard thing to throw at people, people are actually having a really tough time most of the time. And we have to find a way to connect with them, and also not put up with their bullshit and actually talk to them about conditions of settler colonialism, white supremacy, but we need to actually invest in people. They will not care about us unless we care about them. And conspiracy theories very much are people's attempt to make sense of their lives. And so participating with them and making that sense, I think, is useful. You know, I'm Anti Fascist first, which means I'm defense first, defense always comes first. We protect communities before we do anything else. I don't think that's the same though is addressing cconspiracy theories all over the place, and figuring out how we address them with compassion with people. We care about how we address them institutionally. How we stop them when they need to be stopped, like how do we create barriers and borders, all those things are important. But I think in our communities, in general, a lot of conspiracy theories emerge out of dispossession. And we have to choose whether or not to possess those people basically, do we want to create that? Margaret says this too. I mean, the best way to confront conspiracy theories is to give someone a life that matters. I mean, that's what we're actually doing here. So I think focusing on that underlying fertile soil, figuring out how to change that dynamic, give people real tools, give them real relationships and friendship. I think that's really important. Casandra Johns 49:42 Do you have any favorite tools or resources? So my preface to this is that I've had people ask me this question and the reality is that my favorite resources on anti semitism and conspiracy theories are really dense, and most people will not read them. So I'm wondering if you have any favorite tools or resources that are more digestible? Shane Burley 50:03 Yeah, I think there's a few good pamphlets right now that exist that are useful on this. Jews for Racial and Economic Justice, which has been around for decades, it's this progressive left-leaning Jewish group, has a pamphlet on anti semitism that's particularly good. April Rosenbloom has a pamphlet called The Past Didn't Go Anywhere. That's also really good on this. There's a pamphlet put out by, I think it was a group called Unity and Struggle, called How to Overthrow the Illuminati. It's specifically about conspiracy theories and black communities. That's a really good resource. And there's a few others. Again, I think what, you know, one thing you're pointing out is that one of the issues around anti semitism is that the Right has sort of captured the rhetoric on it because they use it to defend Israel. They use accusations of anti semitism to defend Israel. And they over shoot the claims that the Left is anti semitic. So a lot of these groups just simply don't share a worldview with us enough that their analysis I find particularly compelling. But there are some versions of the Left that have done it, and they tend to be particularly academic. So Critical Theory, and Frankfurt School of Marxism, you know, there's a lot of that stuff, right. And that's good, but gobbly gook most of the time. There's a basically lost, forgotten world of Jewish feminism from the 70s and 80s that is actually quite interesting. But it's like next to impossible to find. So the anti fascist stuff, because anti fascists are kind of ahead of the curve on the anti semitism question. But I think those pamphlets are particularly good to hand someone, and hopefully Ben and my book will be will be like that. I'm hoping it will be. Casandra Johns 51:45 Yeah. Yeah. Maybe this is just part of anti semitism, and also conspiracy theorism, because critical thinking is difficult and can't always be, you know, handed to someone in a tiny package. But it just feels someone has to actually be invested in learning about it. It's difficult to explain. Shane Burley 52:13 David Renton, who's he's this great author and an attorney in Britain - and he writes a lot about the history of anti fascism - he wrote this book on the Labour Party's anti semitism, controversy. So people who don't know: the Labour Party in Britain has been embroiled in this big anti semitism controversy for the past several years. It has been cynically employed by the Tories as a way of attacking the party. And it's pretty obvious that that's what's happening. But it's also obvious that there has been some instances of anti semitism in the party. It's not nearly what the Right says of this, but it does happen. And, you know, David's sort of relitigated this and kind of pointed out that it's, you know, the party is turned towards populism and everyone's turned towards populism. A few years ago, populism became kind of the thing that had a weak point, and basically kind of didn't call out conspiracy theories, so they started making their way in, or kind of crude anti semitic ideas. And it's like the answer to that is actually if you look at the what works for the Labour Party, it's actually class war is the answer to that, actually talking to people about class ends up being the antidote to that and having political education. Daniel Randall, another friend of mine, from Britain, had talked about, wrote about this. And I get political education is something that feels really dorky, and not fun to do, and not what people want to do in a lot of spaces, but it was an essential piece of radical movements that aren't there anymore. So actually talking to people about these things, and getting involved people to read some things. I think, you know, people do this in really overblown ways. Lord knows there's a million Marxist groups that make you sit in reading groups all day, and no one wants to be a part of that. But like having some progress on stuff and explaining what kind of anti capitalism we actually mean, I think is a useful thing. And it's one of the better ways intervene on that. Casandra Johns 54:01 That book, Daniel's book, what is it? Confronting Anti Semitism on the Left? He's the one who wrote that, right? Shane Burley 54:10 Yeah, yeah. Casandra Johns 54:11 That sounds right? That book was incredible. Shane Burley 54:14 Yeah. He's really incredible. Yeah, I think I think, you know, one thing is when it comes to anti semitism, specifically, most people don't know Jews and don't know much about Judaism. So I think just letting people know. I mean, the amount of times I've heard things repeated that are just bombastically untrue - like, for example, I was a Student for Justice in Palestine, and we had this event and someone asked the speaker where Zionism came from, and he said, "It's in the Talmud." Just like bonkers stuff, you know? Casandra Johns 54:52 Which is a think that, like, a Zionist might say. Ironically. Shane Burley 54:58 I interviewed Sean Magee when doing my book, and he made a point that a lot of the worst corners of anti Zionism tend to agree with the settlers. And so I think it's just getting people that kind of understanding. I think if people understand conspiracy theories and why they're toxic and what the consequences of them are, I think that's more useful. And then again, getting people in verifiable forms of community that actually meet their needs, I think that actually is more useful. I think when people get involved, for example, in the labor union, that tends to actually decline because they're like, "Okay, I could actually do this thing, I improve my wages this way, I actually have all this tactile control over my life." And then when people are in community with others they have these vulnerable, caring relationships, and they don't... have the same impulse to build the kind of alienating, almost cosmic-level, theories about the world. You know, believing in Q Anon is a really lonely thing, breaks up families or breaks up relationships. So I think all that kind of stuff is really alienating for people. Shane Burley 56:02 But you know, there's this thing called the wave, and SEIU - SEIU is a big labor union - and they have this model of what they call a union conversation, they call it the wave. It's eight steps of how to have a conversation. It's very dorky. But in the conversation, you do a few things, right? You introduce yourself. You listen to what people are saying, you agitate on their issues, you call questions, you know, you do a number of stages to get someone thinking about their issue, why it upsets them and what they can do about it. But you do two things: One, you always plan that when you talk to them, how can we win on this issue? How can we fix it? Is it possible? And then you inoculate them against what the boss will say. What will the boss say when you try and do that? What do they say to you? How is that bullshit? And we don't 'plan the win' with people. And we certainly don't inoculate them. People need to see how they can win. They have to know how it's possible. If someone's having issues in their lives, they have to see how it can win. And if we don't have a sense of that, we're not gonna be able to help with that. And we need to work that out with folks. Shane Burley 57:08 And also talk to them about, like, people are gonna give you other messages about this. Like, what do you think about that? What would you say back to that? Because I think particularly conspiracy thinking, a lot of people get trapped in not understanding the systems and saying, "Well, fuck, I guess that's the deal. I guess the Rothschilds do own it, I don't know." And so I think planning the win and inoculation are really important in that. And that's true in general. There's this assumption that if such a situation gets so bad, that the working class will rise up and overthrow it, but there's no evidence to suggest that. None. What does statistically show people, or what simply pushes people to taking that kind of action, is seeing that they can win. So small victories in their life or in organizing leads to big victories. You have to show people they can win. The pathway to winning using multiracial, you know, community organizing of whatever it is that base building that's, I think, the most important piece because that will then totally push away the sort of false answers. Casandra Johns 58:08 That seems important in terms of motivating people to care as well. You know, like, no, strategically, this is very important in all of our best interests. Shane Burley 58:18 I had this conversation with a member of the John Brown Anti-Klan Committee, which is an anti-fascist group from the 80s, and I was talking to them - I'll just withhold their name for the sake of this conversation - but I was asking him like, how do you commute? Because, you know, John Brown was essentially a white organization, it recruited white leftist folks in support of a kind of anti-white supremacy platform in support of black nationalism and some other things. In a lot of ways kind of divisive, a kind of divisive organization, their politics are a little divisive. And asked, like, "Well, how do you communicate to white working class people why eradicating white supremacy is in their interest?" And she said, she kind of paused and said, "I don't know that it is in their interest." She's like, "I don't communicate with him on that. I communicate with them about what kind of world do you want to live with?" And I told her, I was like, I just disagree with that entirely. I think it is in their interest, and you have to tell them why it's in their interest. And you have to plan out why it's in their interest. I do believe it's in my interest. And when it comes to conspiracy, there's anti semitism, it's super clear why it's in their interest because anti semitism will stop you from winning. It's just so point blank, right? Like George Soros is not the reason you can't pay your mortgage, it's simply not that... Casandra Johns 59:34 Anti semitism, however. Brooke 59:36 Is also not the reason, just to be clear. Not the reason. Shane Burley 59:40 Yeah, that's really great. So Shane, you've mentioned your books, you've got one that just came out right? No Pasaran. Shane Burley 59:40 There are people doing this and they have names and addresses, but... what you're saying is a false pathway. It's totally to direct you the wrong way. And we should talk to people about what happens when they don't just double down on privilege. They don't just double down on those sorts of things. What happens when they reach across communities and build large committees? They become infinitely more powerful. I mean, it's just so overwhelming the kind of change that you can have and not just in the long term, in the immediate term. You can see that with a labor movement. You see that with any social movemnet, that's one serious gain that happened by doing that. It never happened by doubling down on their privilege. So I think talking to people about their interests is essential. And that also shows that you actually give a shit about them because of their interests are your interests, that shows that there's an actual shared bond there, and you can build something. Shane Burley 1:00:38 It was a phrase used particularly during the Spanish Civil War, about blocking fascist access to space and movement into communities. So it's about blocking them, their ability to, to arrive. Brooke 1:00:51 Nice. Okay, so No Pasaran, that just came out. I've got a friend who picked it up at Powell's when you were there doing a book event or reading recently. He said it's really good, and is gonna loan me his copy. So I'm excited to get to read that too. I know you're working on another one - we've talked about it here - on anti semitism. Does that one have a name yet? Do you know when it's coming out? Shane Burley 1:01:11 Yeah, it's called Safety Through Solidarity. Casandra Johns 1:01:15 Nice. Brooke 1:01:15 Beautiful. Shane Burley 1:01:16 Yeah. And I think it'll come out like this time next year. I think that's what it is. So we're sort ofstarting to wrap it up now, like in the writing of it. Brooke 1:01:27 So in the meantime, people can pick up No Pasaran, and then look forward to that. Anything else that you want to plug today, Shane? Shane Burley 1:01:36 Actually, yes, I will be doing more book events in Jan

Soraya Chemaly is an award-winning author, activist and former Executive Director of the Representation Project and Director and Co-Founder of the Women's Media Center Speech Project. She has long been committed to expanding women's civic and political participation.  She is the author Rage Becomes Her: The Power of Women's Anger and the recipient of the 2022 Passionistas Persist Trailblazer Award. Learn nore about Soraya Chemaly. Learn more about The Passionistas Project. FULL TRANSCRIPT:  Passionistas: Hi, we're sisters Amy and Nancy Harrington. We founded the Passionistas Project to tell the stories of women who are following their passions and fighting for equality for all. The more we spoke with women for our podcast, subscription box and the annual Power of Passionistas summit, the more we saw a common trait in all of them. They are unstoppable. Whether they choose to use their voices to start a women-owned brand or fight for the rights of the marginalized, we found that all Passionistas are resilient, compassionate and persistent. Each year, we honor women who embody these qualities by presenting the Passionista Persist Awards. This episode of the podcast is an interview with one of the 2022 recipients. Our next award this evening is the Passionista Persist Trailblazer Award. The definition of Trailblazer is a pioneer, an innovator, a person who makes a new track through wild. Tonight's recipient is an activist and author who is pushing boundaries for women daily in this wild country we live in. The award is being presented by Dr. Melissa Bird, a feminist, author, healer and coach. Melissa's purpose in this world is to teach women how to step into their truth and quit playing small. Melissa: I am so pleased to be presenting the 2022 Passionist Persist Trailblazer Award to my amazing, inspiring friend Soraya Chemaly. Soraya is an award-winning author, activist and is the former Executive Director of the Representation Project and Director and Co-Founder of the Women's Media Center Speech Project. And she has long been committed to expanding women's civic and political participation. One of the things I love and adore about Soraya is that she is the author of one of my most favorite books, Rage Becomes Her: The Power of Women's Anger. And I do not think it is any coincidence that on this day of all days, on this year of all years, I get the privilege and the honor of presenting Soraya with this incredible Trailblazer Award. So, Soraya, thank you so much for joining me today to receive this amazing, beautiful, awesome, well-deserved award because you are certainly blazing many trails in my life and the lives of so many of us. Soraya: Thank you so much, Missy and thank you to, The Passionistas Project. I am really, genuinely so honored. It has been a difficult year. It's been a difficult decade, actually, and honestly, it's just nice to know that organizations like yours are thinking about the work that people are doing, that requires this kind of persistence, which doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as hope. But really and truly, I'm genuinely very, very honored and delighted to be able to have this chance to have a conversation with you again and want to just say thank you very much. Melissa: Oh, you are so welcome. God works in very fascinating ways and the fact that you and I are here together. After the Supreme Court has released so many devastating decisions just this week, like in the last literally six days. Yes, I think it is. Um, I think it is awesome actually, that you and I are together at this moment talking about trailblazing, right? And, and about how are we moving forward. Um, as part of the Passionistas Project, as part of the work, um, that Amy and Nancy have brought together and culminated so that so many people can have a platform for change and a platform for blazing trails. And I think that, you know, you and I in our professional work, Soraya, we work with so many organizations and so many people who are trying. The thing that I love about the Passionistas Project is they are doing in such an authentically beautiful way. And so the first thing I really want to talk with you about today is about the Power of the Passionista and this mission of bringing all these women together from literally all over the world to talk about making change with diversity, equity and inclusion. Truly doing it this time. Like the lineup just blows my mind every time I think about it. So what does the Power of Passionista mean to you? Soraya: When I first heard Passionista, my response was a, a little bit viscerally to think, oh, hold on. That's a word that I personally have heard that you have heard that many of us have heard. That's used dismissively. You're so passionate about that project you work on. Right. As though some of the issues that we are fighting against. Um, our pet projects that we do in our spare time because it makes us feel happy, you know, and so I actually had that initial response, but what I really came to understand and think about was the fact that there's no reason to reject the word passionate or the idea of what it implies and clearly means in this context. I mean, these are women from all over the world who are dedicating their lives to making change often in situations of. Grave, danger of risk, um, of political, uh, violence. Uh, increasingly we know this is the case. Increasingly, we know that the people at the forefront of so many movements, environmental movements, climate change, indigenous rights, uh, apportion, reproductive rights, racial justice, it's over and over and over. Women, black women, queer women, trans women, women who are just pushed farther and farther and farther into the margins. And so I think it's really important to understand what it means. Honestly, the word kind of to me lies at the nexus of the personal and political that some people have the luxury to think are. Right? We know that that's a decades old expression from the feminist world, that the personal is political. But a lot of people really still benefit from separating those two things. And, and, you know, we gain nothing by pretending that they're separated. Um, and I actually think the word Passionista, um, makes people think about that if they care to. Melissa: I think we have to have passion to keep moving on. If we remain passionate about the things that deeply impact our lives and our world and the world of other people, particularly all of the women you just mentioned, we start talking about disabled women, women who are engaging in decolonizing work. We start talking about rebellious women, women who are trying to get educated and disrupting the education system. When we think about people being the ones who are potentially gonna get us through. Then we have to understand passion. Because without passion, the drive in hopeless moments becomes diminished. And so what are you the most passionate about? Soraya: When the Dobbs decision came down, I think like a lot of people, I burst out crying. And the thing is that you've been doing this work, I've been doing this work for, oh, it feels like decades, right? Yeah. Like literally, there was no surprise in this at all. There was just profound loss and disappointment and sadness and rage. That's how I felt, you know? And it was just so eviscerating actually, because I think. If you have been on this side of this fight, seriously, you understand what just happened, what we just lost, what it represents. And that's not to diminish other losses at all, but it's such a turning point to have the right taken away. But it is a really critical point and a great unraveling. Yes and yes. Yes, yes. I'm so glad you called it a great unraveling because I think that is profoundly important for people to understand as we're thinking about, I mean, trailblazing the world as we know it will fall apart. And we're seeing it in little tiny anecdotes. Mm-hmm. you know, doctors who have a woman come into their emergency room at 11:30 PM who with an ectopic pregnancy, that's about to blow, but they've gotta get on the phone with the attorney. Yeah. And make sure they can do the procedure. Cuz her life isn't totally at risk yet, but it will be soon. Right. I, I'm just like, maybe now you understand that the single what the single issues. Not issue. It was always oversimplified into this idea of the act of abortion. And that is never what any of us was talking about, you know? And so I think the thing you were saying, what am I most passionate about? And I was kind of winnowed down into this nub of real despair. You know, just that feeling that you get, which is hopelessness. But I will admit that that was swamp. Pretty quickly by my rage. Yeah. And I think by many people who, many people had this experience of feeling this justifiable rage, but in fact, you can't let that rage hurt you. This is the point, right? If the, if the rage you feel is causing you dangerous stress or causing you to hurt yourself in other ways or. To, um, destroy relationships that are important, that that's not a functioning tool. And, and so I'm quite passionate in this moment about acknowledging anger, acknowledging the rage of the moment, and also appreciating that while it's not the conventional, socially acceptable, um, method of displaying. Anger is literally one of the most hopeful emotions because if you can maintain your anger, which is different from resentment, right? Like I feel resentment when I look back at people's decades of work that feels dismissed and lost, I'm looking back, right? That's different from a rage, which is a feeling that things can and must change. Because you don't feel rage. If you feel really genuinely hopeless. What you feel is sadness and despair and depression, and that's paralyzing. And it's okay if people feel that way because in fact, this is a sad, depressing, paralyzing moment. But I would just say that I also believe that, again, it's not, not to say embrace a rage and an anger that are destructive. It's not at all what I mean, but acknowledge that the rage and the anger are justifiable and that they need expression and that no matter what, they are hopeful. They are fundamentally hopeful. We think that in order to make change, we have to, we have to set aside anger and. And yes, what I love to refer to as Righteous Fury. Mm-hmm.  in order to disrupt systems and make a difference. And I remember so many times when I was lobbying at the Capitol in Utah for a Planned Parenthood, I would just be furious. I can't play poker, I can't keep any emotion off my damn face. And I would be so livid and then I would like take this breath and go, what has to be done? How can I communicate what is necessary to these people to help things move forward? Because I had to focus on, not me, but the thousands and thousands of people that are gonna be impacted by that. Those pieces of legislation, either that I was trying to push forward or that other people were trying to push forward. And as soon as I channeled that rage and moved it into, everything changed as long as I wasn't screaming and yelling and huffing at, at directly at human beings and being abusive and confrontational, I still got rage. I still had all the rage. Mm-hmm.  And I channeled it. Melissa: And I'm curious, when you talk about rage, what are the things that you really wanna help people who are part of this Passionistas summit understand. Soraya: Taking our rage and using it to blaze wherever we're going. There are a few things that really still strike me. Um, it's been three years since the book was published and, um, you know, it, it's one of these books I think that has a very long tale because in fact there is an evergreen quality to these ideas. Mm-hmm, you know, and, and we wanna underst. Emotionality and we in particular, I think wanna understand the role it plays in our cognition because if you are a woman, or if I'm identifying, you know, how quickly and easily people dismiss you, if you express anger. Which is why so many of us try not to show anger, feel anger, display anger. We've grown up being punished for it or, um, mocked for it. You know, that's the number one worry women have. It's not that someone's gonna be violent, it is that they will be mocked for expressing anger, which is an expression of need or an assertion of will. Right. And we're, we're, we're not supposed to have either of those, those things. Mm-hmm. , but I, I think. , there are a few things. One is to be a trailblazer and to use your passionate feelings and beliefs. Doesn't require that you take on the whole world all at once or have an institution or a structure. You know, the whole fact of trailblazing is that you find a new way. You find a way that makes sense to you, and then , most times it also makes sense to other people, but they just either didn't do it or didn't think of it or didn't have the time, but are so appreciative of the fact that you might do it. And so for some people that might be organizing a local choir to resist peacefully. In a certain way, right. To other people it may be writing legislation to other people. It may be mobilizing, um, transportation, who knows what it is, right? But I think it's really important to not feel paralyzed by the idea that there's a way to trail blades. The point is it's risky. Yes. You, you, you have to take the. People may call you stupid or you know, any number of terrible, terrible names, which 100% will happen. Okay. How you know you're on the trail. That's how you know you're on the trail. So you really have to, you have to really fundamentally be okay with people not liking you. That's the other lesson that really strikes me about being passionate and being angry as part of. We are so, so expected and socialized to be likable and to put others first, and not make other people uncomfortable. Trailblazing always makes people uncomfortable. It's okay. We need more people to be very profoundly uncomfortable. I'm thinking about my own moments where friends have come to me, or clients have come to me, or organizations have come to me and said, you know, I have this. I really wanna do it, and I don't think I should because if I do A, B or C is gonna happen, people won't like me. I'll lose my family, I'll lose my friends, which is what stops us from doing our core, what we are here to do. Right? Right. It stops us from living at our purpose. Oftentimes what I hear from people is that I must be really unique for writing the, the very first bill I ever wrote on my dining room table when I was getting my master's degree. Thinking about what propels you and the people that you know, all these women who are here as part of the summit, all these people that are connecting with all of us who are involved as either award recipients or speakers. What do you want people to know? You know, there's gonna be a lot of noise, there's gonna be a lot of us versus them. There's gonna be a lot of polarization cuz there's nothing. This country more loves more than polarizing each other. Melissa: What do you think people really need to hear about that polarization so they don't get distracted by all that noise? Soraya: Well, it's so hard, you know, because in fact the stage at which we're in the polarization is intimate, right? We're not talking about someone who lives in another state who feels differently. We may be talking as women about the person who's sleeping next to us in bed. That is a very difficult situation that millions and millions and millions of people find themselves in. The polarization is very gendered and very raced. The political polarization. Mm-hmm. But at the same time, we all know there are a lot of liberal progressive men and a lot of extremely conservative women. Yes. So, you know, I don't wanna suggest that it's straight down the line that fathers and daughters or, you know, so I, I think it's important to acknowledge. The intimacy of the issues that we're talking about and it demands of us different tactics and techniques. It demands, honestly, and this is what, this is why I gravitated towards anger as a way of shedding light on some of these issues of inequal. The inequalities are deeply intimate, right? And so the thing about anger in an intimate setting, whether it's a family setting, a religious community, which is almost always patriarchal, right? Our main religious faiths are all mainstream patriarchal, um, regardless of the community you're in. The thing about disdain, anger is that it, it erases the, even the idea of reciprocity, right? So if you're angry at people, you know, and you don't tell them who exactly are you protecting or hurting. Maybe you're protecting yourself because it's too big a risk to think, I love these people. I have dedicated my life to them. I've taken care of them, or I do it every day. But what if they don't return that care? Right? What if I say I'm very angry? This is very important to me, I need you to support me. And what they do is get angry at me for the way I express myself or laugh at me and diminish my concerns. Those are legitimate concerns because they happen every day. And so I just think we need to acknowledge the risk because in fact, the hard part about thinking about reciprocity is acknowledging. There are power. There's power at play, social power at play in our institutions at every level. So yes, in the government, but in our schools and in our places of worship and at our dining room tables, I always say, if you can't practice a hard conversation at home among the people that in that you trust and who in theory love you and support you, how are you supposed to do outside. I think that's really the thing that keeps people from engaging. Melissa: The topic of this conference is diversity, equity and inclusion, right? And I think that right there, Soraya is why people don't really authentically dig into do I work because I agree. Because if you can't have that conversation at home, right? Soraya: How in the hell are you supposed to have it in a corporation with thousands of employees. So often the onus of these conversations falls on the minority people who are most negatively affected. When we think about intersectionality, it's very often the case that you think about black women, um, or trans women, right? Yeah. And what gets erased is the intersectional nature or relevance or political. Identity of a white straight man, for example, or of a, a, a white straight woman. That identity, because it's so often conflated with a normal person mm-hmm.  as opposed to, and, and a person whose identity doesn't matter. That gets very complicated. And so when you have to do the hard work of talking about those identities, It feels as we know, like an attack on people. That's, that's where the term white fragility comes from, you know? And so imagine being, uh, a woman at the dinner table who wants to talk to her children about whiteness, and that's not really appreciated by her spouse. How is she also gonna talk about male or straightness, right? If she has a child, if she like. It's a very complicated, and I think the reason it gets so complicated is because these conversations are threats to identity. You know, they're threats to how people think of themselves as being good people. I don't know how many men I've talked to who you know, hate identity politics. Without thinking about their own identities, right? Because in fact, from their perspective, which we keep hearing over and over again, they've done what everybody can do, which is work hard and provide and protect and do exactly what they were told to do, which in fact, they are doing, they are. And in fact, there are rewards that come with and those rewards do not extend to other people. That's the point. So the diversity and inclusion conversations come, as you say, to a hard stop because they, they have to happen intimately. Yeah. You know, they, they have, they, that's, that's the only way things are gonna change. Melissa: One of the things Amy, Nancy and I were talking about as we've been trying to get sponsorships for the conference, right? Because as you do, like it's a conference, right? Sponsorships. Right. One of the things we realized really early on, because I'm like, this is a DEI, no-brainer. We have elevated like people with disabilities. Yeah. You know, indigenous folks, like trans women, like we've. I've never been so involved with an organization that actually is doing all of this. Like I, I was really surprised. Yeah. Whoa. Like, this is real, right? We're having such a hard time getting money, and I realized we, we had this moment, this epiphany, Soraya, where I was like, we're elevating the other. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Every person involved with this conference is the other. Yeah. And corporations can all day talk about how committed they are to whomever we wanna name, but when it comes to putting their money where their mouth is Right, they don't deliver. I agree. And I'm wondering if you think. If you have any ideas about how we can all leave this summit and, and really start to hold people's feet to the fire as we're moving into this new era where so much is gonna get decimated. Soraya: I belong to many different organizations. I've set on the boards and advisory boards of many organizations dedicated to. Um, representation, diversity and inclusion in lots of different industries. And the first thing that happens, of course, is that you, you go after the easy, theoretically, money, people who you already know are predisposed. If you belong to, uh, uh, an organization that traditionally focused on women mm-hmm. , you might go after. Women donors, right? Sure, sure. Yeah. Beautiful. To an organization that focused on black women, there were far less women donors that were black women. So, you know, your, your pool might be a little narrower. Yep. But what what happens is that even as you say, it's, it's not just in your case that you've gone after the other, it's that even a word like Passionista. Marginalize as an organization. Mm-hmm, because of its feminized underlying, vaguely sexualized, you know, kind of con the language, the context, the biases that go into that. Imagine if you had this kind of organization dedicated to men trailblazers, you just probably wouldn't call it Passionista. And so we end up being marginalized just by virtue of the words and identities that we're trying to support. When we do that, we end up, first of all, just going after about two to 4% of available monies that leaves the other 96 to 98. That in terms of private money, comes from men, individual men, wealthy men. Mm-hmm and, and I'm always flummoxed. Why, why are we not asking these very outspoken, wealthy men who claim to be supporters of freedom and you know, on and on and on. I'm like, where's their money? Yes, where's their money going? I mean, I only vaguely tongue in cheek did I suggest to a friend yesterday that there should just be a Men of Conscience organization that handed money over. Here's the money. Mm-hmm, but you know, very often money comes with strings attached. Yep. And that gets very complicated for some organizations, you know? Yeah. Um, so it kind of becomes a vicious, self-fulfilling cycle, cycle of scarcity. Mm-hmm. But we do have to find. To hold people publicly accountable. Yeah. Hold organizations accountable. There's very little transparency. Yeah. That's a big problem. You know, so I don't, you know, I don't have a really easy solution. I would say though, that if you are a trailblazer and gender is a component of your trailblazing, be aware of the degree to which that becomes marginalizing. By default, I mean, for 10 years now, I've lobbying fighting, engage in activism around freedom of expression, online harassment, violence against women, and really and truly, you have to explain which gobsmacking to me still why that's a matter of democracy. Yes, right. When your most vulnerable, marginalized citizens cannot speak without the threat of violence, yes, and harm and rape and lynching and horrible things, your democracy is not functioning. We just live in a society as we know where it's not until the freeze breach. Of the most powerful, who still tend to be cisgendered, straight white men, Christian. It's not until the those rights start getting scratched at that people pay attention to democracy. There's nothing new here. This is the, you know, it's the history of the nation that doesn't make it any less frustrating. How can we come together? I think it's very important to come together. To for, you know, the, the one thing about the internet, despite all of its bad, bad aspects, is that it does enable people to come together to build fluid communities. Um, you can build, you know, chains of ad hoc communities. That are meaningful and valuable and supportive and you know, people can share moments of joy and humor and accomplishment and shared goals and visions. And I think it's very easy, particularly since we seem to be pretending we still are not in a pandemic, but we are right. In a time like this, I think it's very easy not just to feel isolated, but also to withdraw. You know, I felt that tendency where. I think it's better to be alone than to be to, to subject other people to my particular mindset. Right now, I know what that's like. We, we went to dinner last week and this weekend and I walked in. I saw a man and I thought, if he offers me a drink, I think I have to just, I'm just gonna say to him, well, what do you want me to have? Because, What the fuck where you're at. Yeah. That's where I am. Right. I'm like, I can't have a conversation. I need to not have this conversation. Yeah, right. And, but I think that's a bad instinct. What we need is more connection, not disconnection, not connection with people we're angry at. I don't want to suggest that, you know, but we need to build on the relationships that bring us comfort and joy and connect. And we need to make those connections with more and more and more people. I, I love what I, I, what I love about that is that, um, I've been saying that if we really, truly are ready to disrupt white supremacy and racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, all the things, if we are really truly there, then connecting on. And allowing ourselves to let this crumble right is really important because I don't wanna live under a regime that is founded on the doctrine of discovery and manifest destiny. That's exactly right. Like we have been, we've been, nobody knows, frankly, what the doctrine of discovery is. Right. It is the document that our constitution is founded on, which says if you go to a piece of land from wherever you are and you, uh, whatever European Christian country, whatever European Christian country you're coming from, and you discover it, then you have free reign to kill everybody who's on it. So you can discover it. Yeah. And that is the Reader's Digest condensed version in literally half a second. Melissa: But I don't wanna live under that and when we come together and hold each other in all of this and we connect wherever we're at, then we can start to figure out ways to move through this as it is burning around us. Soraya: Yeah. Yeah. And I think too in, in terms of coming to terms with what all of that really means, I think that. What's very clear is that communities that have been under-resourced and PO and and punished for centuries. For centuries, right, they have been responsible for themselves. They have already been at war with the government. They have already been punished repeatedly by the society. Yes. You know, this is not new. Honestly, what's new right now I think is the shock to white communities. Just like, just like when Trump was elected, frankly. Yeah, right. Just the shock of it. To some people that, my God, it can actually happen. And you're like, yeah, yes it can. Yeah, sure enough it can. Cause it has, it's happened over and over and over again. And so that circle of people who are negatively affected is now bigger. And I think part of the problem is the instinct in many communities is, well, we need to do something and then they start from. Instead of stepping back and thinking this would be a really good time to educate myself, to listen, to learn, to support the leaders who've already been doing this, the communities that understand how to do this, you know, and I know this too, I will say this flat out because I have seen this over and over again. What often happens, particularly among. You've seen this too, right? In feminist organizations, but philanthropic organizations that aren't specifically feminists. White women will replicate patriarchal power structures by default, you know, and, and they will act in ways that are corrosive. To other types of organizations and societies. So very hierarchical, very dominant, very power over, very top down. We've seen that. We've seen that destroy organizations over and over again. So I think it's just really important in this moment. To step back and be very self-reflective. How am I contributing to this problem structurally without knowing it? What mistakes have I made? What can I learn? How can I be quiet? How can I learn? How can I learn? Is really, I think, possibly the most important thing that can, the question people can ask right now, we all can learn. Melissa: Soraya:, thank you so much for your time. Oh, thank you. I'm blazing a trail that I can go running down to. Soraya: No, thank you again. Really and truly. And you know, I wanna say thank you to Nancy and Amy especially, um, and always such a delight to talk to you and to work with you in solidarity. Um, so thank you all very. Passionistas: Thanks for listening to the awards presentation with Soraya Chemaly, and thanks to Dr. Melissa Bird for the amazing interview. To learn more about Dr. Bird, visit DrMelissaBird.com. To learn more about Soraya, visit SorayaChemaly.com and be sure to subscribe to The Passionista Project Podcast so you don't miss any of our upcoming inspiring guests. Until next time, stay well and stay passionate.

The president issues a cryptic warning about the next pandemic.--The government and science that purports to cure pandemics, is the same government and science that have the power to create them now. Concentrating power is bound to yield more evil given the sinful hearts of men.--When governments favor private companies like Pfizer, these gigantic pharmaceuticals increase their revenue from -40 billion to -100 billion inside of two years.--We go over the current data on the Covid-19 catastrophe, and conclude -at the very least- that science did not save us this time.---This program includes---1. The World View in 5 Minutes with Adam McManus -The violent attacks by pro-abortion terrorists on pro-lifers, The rise of the European Christian political movement, Biden wants to suspend 18-cent federal gas tax---2. Generations with Kevin Swanson

Dony looks at the meeting by the river in Acts chapter 16, and how the Lord turned up and opened

Bold Paul ventures into Europe and is blessed to find the first convert to Christianity among a group of women in Greece. The lady was Lydia and she and her household presented themselves for baptism after Paul preached the gospel to them! What a blessing to the work of Christ when a new believer says Yes to Jesus! LIsten and be blessed! --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/eradio-valverde/support

The Church of the Dead: The Epidemic of 1576 and the Birth of Christianity in the Americas (NYU Press, 2021) tells the story of the founding of American Christianity against the backdrop of devastating disease, and of the Indigenous survivors who kept the nascent faith alive Many scholars have come to think of the European Christian mission to the Americas as an inevitable success. But in its early period it was very much on the brink of failure. In 1576, Indigenous Mexican communities suffered a catastrophic epidemic that took almost two million lives and simultaneously left the colonial church in ruins. In the crisis and its immediate aftermath, Spanish missionaries and surviving pueblos de indios held radically different visions for the future of Christianity in the Americas. The Church of the Dead offers a counter-history of American Christian origins. It centers the power of Indigenous Mexicans, showing how their Catholic faith remained intact even in the face of the faltering religious fervor of Spanish missionaries. While the Europeans grappled with their failure to stem the tide of death, succumbing to despair, Indigenous survivors worked to reconstruct the church. They reasserted ancestral territories as sovereign, with Indigenous Catholic states rivaling the jurisdiction of the diocese and the power of friars and bishops. Christianity in the Americas today is thus not the creation of missionaries, but rather of Indigenous Catholic survivors of the colonial mortandad, the founding condition of American Christianity. Weaving together archival study, visual culture, church history, theology, and the history of medicine, Jennifer Scheper Hughes provides us with a fascinating reexamination of North American religious history that is at once groundbreaking and lyrical. Brady McCartney is a Ph.D. student and scholar of religion, Indigenous studies, and environmental history at the University of Florida.Email: Brady.McCartney@UFL.edu Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Church of the Dead: The Epidemic of 1576 and the Birth of Christianity in the Americas (NYU Press, 2021) tells the story of the founding of American Christianity against the backdrop of devastating disease, and of the Indigenous survivors who kept the nascent faith alive Many scholars have come to think of the European Christian mission to the Americas as an inevitable success. But in its early period it was very much on the brink of failure. In 1576, Indigenous Mexican communities suffered a catastrophic epidemic that took almost two million lives and simultaneously left the colonial church in ruins. In the crisis and its immediate aftermath, Spanish missionaries and surviving pueblos de indios held radically different visions for the future of Christianity in the Americas. The Church of the Dead offers a counter-history of American Christian origins. It centers the power of Indigenous Mexicans, showing how their Catholic faith remained intact even in the face of the faltering religious fervor of Spanish missionaries. While the Europeans grappled with their failure to stem the tide of death, succumbing to despair, Indigenous survivors worked to reconstruct the church. They reasserted ancestral territories as sovereign, with Indigenous Catholic states rivaling the jurisdiction of the diocese and the power of friars and bishops. Christianity in the Americas today is thus not the creation of missionaries, but rather of Indigenous Catholic survivors of the colonial mortandad, the founding condition of American Christianity. Weaving together archival study, visual culture, church history, theology, and the history of medicine, Jennifer Scheper Hughes provides us with a fascinating reexamination of North American religious history that is at once groundbreaking and lyrical. Brady McCartney is a Ph.D. student and scholar of religion, Indigenous studies, and environmental history at the University of Florida.Email: Brady.McCartney@UFL.edu Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/religion

The Church of the Dead: The Epidemic of 1576 and the Birth of Christianity in the Americas (NYU Press, 2021) tells the story of the founding of American Christianity against the backdrop of devastating disease, and of the Indigenous survivors who kept the nascent faith alive Many scholars have come to think of the European Christian mission to the Americas as an inevitable success. But in its early period it was very much on the brink of failure. In 1576, Indigenous Mexican communities suffered a catastrophic epidemic that took almost two million lives and simultaneously left the colonial church in ruins. In the crisis and its immediate aftermath, Spanish missionaries and surviving pueblos de indios held radically different visions for the future of Christianity in the Americas. The Church of the Dead offers a counter-history of American Christian origins. It centers the power of Indigenous Mexicans, showing how their Catholic faith remained intact even in the face of the faltering religious fervor of Spanish missionaries. While the Europeans grappled with their failure to stem the tide of death, succumbing to despair, Indigenous survivors worked to reconstruct the church. They reasserted ancestral territories as sovereign, with Indigenous Catholic states rivaling the jurisdiction of the diocese and the power of friars and bishops. Christianity in the Americas today is thus not the creation of missionaries, but rather of Indigenous Catholic survivors of the colonial mortandad, the founding condition of American Christianity. Weaving together archival study, visual culture, church history, theology, and the history of medicine, Jennifer Scheper Hughes provides us with a fascinating reexamination of North American religious history that is at once groundbreaking and lyrical. Brady McCartney is a Ph.D. student and scholar of religion, Indigenous studies, and environmental history at the University of Florida.Email: Brady.McCartney@UFL.edu Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Church of the Dead: The Epidemic of 1576 and the Birth of Christianity in the Americas (NYU Press, 2021) tells the story of the founding of American Christianity against the backdrop of devastating disease, and of the Indigenous survivors who kept the nascent faith alive Many scholars have come to think of the European Christian mission to the Americas as an inevitable success. But in its early period it was very much on the brink of failure. In 1576, Indigenous Mexican communities suffered a catastrophic epidemic that took almost two million lives and simultaneously left the colonial church in ruins. In the crisis and its immediate aftermath, Spanish missionaries and surviving pueblos de indios held radically different visions for the future of Christianity in the Americas. The Church of the Dead offers a counter-history of American Christian origins. It centers the power of Indigenous Mexicans, showing how their Catholic faith remained intact even in the face of the faltering religious fervor of Spanish missionaries. While the Europeans grappled with their failure to stem the tide of death, succumbing to despair, Indigenous survivors worked to reconstruct the church. They reasserted ancestral territories as sovereign, with Indigenous Catholic states rivaling the jurisdiction of the diocese and the power of friars and bishops. Christianity in the Americas today is thus not the creation of missionaries, but rather of Indigenous Catholic survivors of the colonial mortandad, the founding condition of American Christianity. Weaving together archival study, visual culture, church history, theology, and the history of medicine, Jennifer Scheper Hughes provides us with a fascinating reexamination of North American religious history that is at once groundbreaking and lyrical. Brady McCartney is a Ph.D. student and scholar of religion, Indigenous studies, and environmental history at the University of Florida.Email: Brady.McCartney@UFL.edu Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Church of the Dead: The Epidemic of 1576 and the Birth of Christianity in the Americas (NYU Press, 2021) tells the story of the founding of American Christianity against the backdrop of devastating disease, and of the Indigenous survivors who kept the nascent faith alive Many scholars have come to think of the European Christian mission to the Americas as an inevitable success. But in its early period it was very much on the brink of failure. In 1576, Indigenous Mexican communities suffered a catastrophic epidemic that took almost two million lives and simultaneously left the colonial church in ruins. In the crisis and its immediate aftermath, Spanish missionaries and surviving pueblos de indios held radically different visions for the future of Christianity in the Americas. The Church of the Dead offers a counter-history of American Christian origins. It centers the power of Indigenous Mexicans, showing how their Catholic faith remained intact even in the face of the faltering religious fervor of Spanish missionaries. While the Europeans grappled with their failure to stem the tide of death, succumbing to despair, Indigenous survivors worked to reconstruct the church. They reasserted ancestral territories as sovereign, with Indigenous Catholic states rivaling the jurisdiction of the diocese and the power of friars and bishops. Christianity in the Americas today is thus not the creation of missionaries, but rather of Indigenous Catholic survivors of the colonial mortandad, the founding condition of American Christianity. Weaving together archival study, visual culture, church history, theology, and the history of medicine, Jennifer Scheper Hughes provides us with a fascinating reexamination of North American religious history that is at once groundbreaking and lyrical. Brady McCartney is a Ph.D. student and scholar of religion, Indigenous studies, and environmental history at the University of Florida.Email: Brady.McCartney@UFL.edu Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Church of the Dead: The Epidemic of 1576 and the Birth of Christianity in the Americas (NYU Press, 2021) tells the story of the founding of American Christianity against the backdrop of devastating disease, and of the Indigenous survivors who kept the nascent faith alive Many scholars have come to think of the European Christian mission to the Americas as an inevitable success. But in its early period it was very much on the brink of failure. In 1576, Indigenous Mexican communities suffered a catastrophic epidemic that took almost two million lives and simultaneously left the colonial church in ruins. In the crisis and its immediate aftermath, Spanish missionaries and surviving pueblos de indios held radically different visions for the future of Christianity in the Americas. The Church of the Dead offers a counter-history of American Christian origins. It centers the power of Indigenous Mexicans, showing how their Catholic faith remained intact even in the face of the faltering religious fervor of Spanish missionaries. While the Europeans grappled with their failure to stem the tide of death, succumbing to despair, Indigenous survivors worked to reconstruct the church. They reasserted ancestral territories as sovereign, with Indigenous Catholic states rivaling the jurisdiction of the diocese and the power of friars and bishops. Christianity in the Americas today is thus not the creation of missionaries, but rather of Indigenous Catholic survivors of the colonial mortandad, the founding condition of American Christianity. Weaving together archival study, visual culture, church history, theology, and the history of medicine, Jennifer Scheper Hughes provides us with a fascinating reexamination of North American religious history that is at once groundbreaking and lyrical. Brady McCartney is a Ph.D. student and scholar of religion, Indigenous studies, and environmental history at the University of Florida.Email: Brady.McCartney@UFL.edu Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/christian-studies

The Church of the Dead: The Epidemic of 1576 and the Birth of Christianity in the Americas (NYU Press, 2021) tells the story of the founding of American Christianity against the backdrop of devastating disease, and of the Indigenous survivors who kept the nascent faith alive Many scholars have come to think of the European Christian mission to the Americas as an inevitable success. But in its early period it was very much on the brink of failure. In 1576, Indigenous Mexican communities suffered a catastrophic epidemic that took almost two million lives and simultaneously left the colonial church in ruins. In the crisis and its immediate aftermath, Spanish missionaries and surviving pueblos de indios held radically different visions for the future of Christianity in the Americas. The Church of the Dead offers a counter-history of American Christian origins. It centers the power of Indigenous Mexicans, showing how their Catholic faith remained intact even in the face of the faltering religious fervor of Spanish missionaries. While the Europeans grappled with their failure to stem the tide of death, succumbing to despair, Indigenous survivors worked to reconstruct the church. They reasserted ancestral territories as sovereign, with Indigenous Catholic states rivaling the jurisdiction of the diocese and the power of friars and bishops. Christianity in the Americas today is thus not the creation of missionaries, but rather of Indigenous Catholic survivors of the colonial mortandad, the founding condition of American Christianity. Weaving together archival study, visual culture, church history, theology, and the history of medicine, Jennifer Scheper Hughes provides us with a fascinating reexamination of North American religious history that is at once groundbreaking and lyrical. Brady McCartney is a Ph.D. student and scholar of religion, Indigenous studies, and environmental history at the University of Florida.Email: Brady.McCartney@UFL.edu Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Church of the Dead: The Epidemic of 1576 and the Birth of Christianity in the Americas (NYU Press, 2021) tells the story of the founding of American Christianity against the backdrop of devastating disease, and of the Indigenous survivors who kept the nascent faith alive Many scholars have come to think of the European Christian mission to the Americas as an inevitable success. But in its early period it was very much on the brink of failure. In 1576, Indigenous Mexican communities suffered a catastrophic epidemic that took almost two million lives and simultaneously left the colonial church in ruins. In the crisis and its immediate aftermath, Spanish missionaries and surviving pueblos de indios held radically different visions for the future of Christianity in the Americas. The Church of the Dead offers a counter-history of American Christian origins. It centers the power of Indigenous Mexicans, showing how their Catholic faith remained intact even in the face of the faltering religious fervor of Spanish missionaries. While the Europeans grappled with their failure to stem the tide of death, succumbing to despair, Indigenous survivors worked to reconstruct the church. They reasserted ancestral territories as sovereign, with Indigenous Catholic states rivaling the jurisdiction of the diocese and the power of friars and bishops. Christianity in the Americas today is thus not the creation of missionaries, but rather of Indigenous Catholic survivors of the colonial mortandad, the founding condition of American Christianity. Weaving together archival study, visual culture, church history, theology, and the history of medicine, Jennifer Scheper Hughes provides us with a fascinating reexamination of North American religious history that is at once groundbreaking and lyrical. Brady McCartney is a Ph.D. student and scholar of religion, Indigenous studies, and environmental history at the University of Florida.Email: Brady.McCartney@UFL.edu Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/environmental-studies

The Church of the Dead: The Epidemic of 1576 and the Birth of Christianity in the Americas (NYU Press, 2021) tells the story of the founding of American Christianity against the backdrop of devastating disease, and of the Indigenous survivors who kept the nascent faith alive Many scholars have come to think of the European Christian mission to the Americas as an inevitable success. But in its early period it was very much on the brink of failure. In 1576, Indigenous Mexican communities suffered a catastrophic epidemic that took almost two million lives and simultaneously left the colonial church in ruins. In the crisis and its immediate aftermath, Spanish missionaries and surviving pueblos de indios held radically different visions for the future of Christianity in the Americas. The Church of the Dead offers a counter-history of American Christian origins. It centers the power of Indigenous Mexicans, showing how their Catholic faith remained intact even in the face of the faltering religious fervor of Spanish missionaries. While the Europeans grappled with their failure to stem the tide of death, succumbing to despair, Indigenous survivors worked to reconstruct the church. They reasserted ancestral territories as sovereign, with Indigenous Catholic states rivaling the jurisdiction of the diocese and the power of friars and bishops. Christianity in the Americas today is thus not the creation of missionaries, but rather of Indigenous Catholic survivors of the colonial mortandad, the founding condition of American Christianity. Weaving together archival study, visual culture, church history, theology, and the history of medicine, Jennifer Scheper Hughes provides us with a fascinating reexamination of North American religious history that is at once groundbreaking and lyrical. Brady McCartney is a Ph.D. student and scholar of religion, Indigenous studies, and environmental history at the University of Florida.Email: Brady.McCartney@UFL.edu Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/native-american-studies

The Church of the Dead: The Epidemic of 1576 and the Birth of Christianity in the Americas (NYU Press, 2021) tells the story of the founding of American Christianity against the backdrop of devastating disease, and of the Indigenous survivors who kept the nascent faith alive Many scholars have come to think of the European Christian mission to the Americas as an inevitable success. But in its early period it was very much on the brink of failure. In 1576, Indigenous Mexican communities suffered a catastrophic epidemic that took almost two million lives and simultaneously left the colonial church in ruins. In the crisis and its immediate aftermath, Spanish missionaries and surviving pueblos de indios held radically different visions for the future of Christianity in the Americas. The Church of the Dead offers a counter-history of American Christian origins. It centers the power of Indigenous Mexicans, showing how their Catholic faith remained intact even in the face of the faltering religious fervor of Spanish missionaries. While the Europeans grappled with their failure to stem the tide of death, succumbing to despair, Indigenous survivors worked to reconstruct the church. They reasserted ancestral territories as sovereign, with Indigenous Catholic states rivaling the jurisdiction of the diocese and the power of friars and bishops. Christianity in the Americas today is thus not the creation of missionaries, but rather of Indigenous Catholic survivors of the colonial mortandad, the founding condition of American Christianity. Weaving together archival study, visual culture, church history, theology, and the history of medicine, Jennifer Scheper Hughes provides us with a fascinating reexamination of North American religious history that is at once groundbreaking and lyrical. Brady McCartney is a Ph.D. student and scholar of religion, Indigenous studies, and environmental history at the University of Florida.Email: Brady.McCartney@UFL.edu Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/latin-american-studies

The Church of the Dead: The Epidemic of 1576 and the Birth of Christianity in the Americas (NYU Press, 2021) tells the story of the founding of American Christianity against the backdrop of devastating disease, and of the Indigenous survivors who kept the nascent faith alive Many scholars have come to think of the European Christian mission to the Americas as an inevitable success. But in its early period it was very much on the brink of failure. In 1576, Indigenous Mexican communities suffered a catastrophic epidemic that took almost two million lives and simultaneously left the colonial church in ruins. In the crisis and its immediate aftermath, Spanish missionaries and surviving pueblos de indios held radically different visions for the future of Christianity in the Americas. The Church of the Dead offers a counter-history of American Christian origins. It centers the power of Indigenous Mexicans, showing how their Catholic faith remained intact even in the face of the faltering religious fervor of Spanish missionaries. While the Europeans grappled with their failure to stem the tide of death, succumbing to despair, Indigenous survivors worked to reconstruct the church. They reasserted ancestral territories as sovereign, with Indigenous Catholic states rivaling the jurisdiction of the diocese and the power of friars and bishops. Christianity in the Americas today is thus not the creation of missionaries, but rather of Indigenous Catholic survivors of the colonial mortandad, the founding condition of American Christianity. Weaving together archival study, visual culture, church history, theology, and the history of medicine, Jennifer Scheper Hughes provides us with a fascinating reexamination of North American religious history that is at once groundbreaking and lyrical. Brady McCartney is a Ph.D. student and scholar of religion, Indigenous studies, and environmental history at the University of Florida.Email: Brady.McCartney@UFL.edu Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/history

The Church of the Dead: The Epidemic of 1576 and the Birth of Christianity in the Americas (NYU Press, 2021) tells the story of the founding of American Christianity against the backdrop of devastating disease, and of the Indigenous survivors who kept the nascent faith alive Many scholars have come to think of the European Christian mission to the Americas as an inevitable success. But in its early period it was very much on the brink of failure. In 1576, Indigenous Mexican communities suffered a catastrophic epidemic that took almost two million lives and simultaneously left the colonial church in ruins. In the crisis and its immediate aftermath, Spanish missionaries and surviving pueblos de indios held radically different visions for the future of Christianity in the Americas. The Church of the Dead offers a counter-history of American Christian origins. It centers the power of Indigenous Mexicans, showing how their Catholic faith remained intact even in the face of the faltering religious fervor of Spanish missionaries. While the Europeans grappled with their failure to stem the tide of death, succumbing to despair, Indigenous survivors worked to reconstruct the church. They reasserted ancestral territories as sovereign, with Indigenous Catholic states rivaling the jurisdiction of the diocese and the power of friars and bishops. Christianity in the Americas today is thus not the creation of missionaries, but rather of Indigenous Catholic survivors of the colonial mortandad, the founding condition of American Christianity. Weaving together archival study, visual culture, church history, theology, and the history of medicine, Jennifer Scheper Hughes provides us with a fascinating reexamination of North American religious history that is at once groundbreaking and lyrical. Brady McCartney is a Ph.D. student and scholar of religion, Indigenous studies, and environmental history at the University of Florida.Email: Brady.McCartney@UFL.edu Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/new-books-network

From the ages of 4-12 Malidoma describes being held as a kidnapped African boy among other kidnapped African boys from various villages within the vicinity of the European Christian missioniary school/church. Beatings, isolation, Adult labor burdens on the backs of children, complete enforced identity destruction and reconstruction... --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/blisb/message

The right of conquest is a right of ownership to land after immediate possession via force of arms. It was recognized as a principle of international law that gradually deteriorated in significance until its proscription in the aftermath of World War II following the concept of crimes against peace introduced in the Nuremberg Principles. The interdiction of territorial conquests was confirmed and broadened by the UN Charter, which provides in article 2, paragraph 4, that "All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations." Although civil wars continued, wars between established states have been rare since 1945. Nations that have resorted to the use of force since the Charter came into effect have typically invoked self-defense or the right of collective defense. The discovery doctrine, also called doctrine of discovery, is a concept of public international law expounded by the United States Supreme Court in a series of decisions, most notably Johnson v M'Intosh in 1823. Chief Justice John Marshall explained and applied the way that colonial powers laid claim to lands belonging to foreign sovereign nations during the Age of Discovery. Under it, European Christian governments could lay title to non-European Christian territory on the basis that the colonizers traveled and "discovered" said territory. The doctrine has been primarily used to support decisions invalidating or ignoring aboriginal possession of land in favor of modern governments, such as in the 2005 case of Sherrill v Oneida Nation. The 1823 case was the result of collusive lawsuits where land speculators worked together to make claims to achieve a desired result. John Marshall explained the Court's reasoning. The decision has been the subject of a number of law review articles and has come under increased scrutiny by modern legal theorists. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/law-school/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/law-school/support

I have been fervently praying for America. There is a fierce spiritual battle going on in this country, and it often appears that the dark forces are winning. I am convinced of a different reality, however. Defeat is not the future of America. Though our natural eyes see a bleak situation, our eyes of faith allow us to see a spiritual reality of hope and restoration. Through countless dreams, God has shown me that a great revival is coming to many countries, including America and China. The intense spiritual battles that are going on around us are the enemy's attempt to stop these future revivals, but God's plans will not be defeated.   A few weeks ago, I was invited to lead an online Chinese Christian Bible study. This group had been reading the book of Deuteronomy and learning about Moses' prophecies regarding the Twelve Tribes. The group didn't understand the meaning of these prophecies, so they invited me to share my perspective. The Holy Spirit led me to compare Moses' prophecies with Jacob's prophecies in Genesis 49. Both passages offer prophetic visions about the Twelve Tribes. I believed that comparing these two chapters would give them a better understanding. As we were talking about Jacob and Moses' prophecies of Joseph, the Holy Spirit spoke though my mouth. I began to proclaim that America is the Joseph of today and that her branches run over the wall. Each Christian who is fighting for America can also be the Joseph of today. When countless “Josephs” strengthen their bows to resist the enemy, God will begin to save the world. The difficult environment that America is currently facing will be a catalyst for change. Countless Josephs can arise making America, the collective Joseph, even stronger.   I felt the Holy Spirit on these words to the group. In fact, I felt as if these were God's hidden plans for America. As we examine this prophecy deeper, it becomes obvious that the Spirit was using pictorial language based on the biblical images of trees and branches. First, I was led to Genesis 49:22 which says, “Joseph is a fruitful bough, a fruitful bough by a fountain; His branches run over the wall.” The Holy Spirit explained this metaphor: Joseph represents America today. She is a fruitful bough. Her branches run over the wall, bearing abundant fruit all over the world. Although the archers (49:23) tried their best to attack her, her bows will be unmoved, and her arm will still be agile (49:24). God will certainly rise to help her (49:25) and bless her greatly. What a great thing to hear about the condition of America! God's calling for America is also represented by Moses' prophecy over Joseph: “His horns are the horns of a wild ox; with them he shall gore the peoples, all of them, to the ends of the earth” (Deuteronomy 33:17). This verse prophetically speaks about America's role. They should continue to play the role of the “horns of the wild ox.” That is, they should spread the gospel to every country in the world and “gore” the people and nations who resist the Gospel.   Joseph Is A Fruitful Vine Let's look deeper at the prophetic implication of these verses in Genesis. The Bible says that Joseph is a fruitful bough. He's a lovely vine by a fountain; his branches run over the wall (Genesis 49:22). Using the same metaphor, the Lord Jesus told us, “I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing” (John 15:5). Joseph was a branch that depended on God as his vine. Joseph was the fruit of the prayers of his mother, Rachel, after an extended period of infertility. He was his father's favorite, a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Joseph embraced the God of his fathers and his roots were Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham. He was firmly attached to the vine of God. Even after a series of life hardships, Joseph still flourished like a vine because he was deeply rooted in the soil. We don't know how Joseph spent his years in prison, but it is not hard to imagine that Joseph stayed connected to God through prayer. Hardship and the prayer it inspires, help us root our lives and identities in God.   Joseph's Branches Run Over the Wall One of my hobbies is planting fruit trees. I also enjoy reading articles about effective horticulture. On the internet, I saw pictures of a fruit tree planted close to the neighbors' yard. A heavy bough, laden with fruit, was hanging over the fence into the next yard. In many cases, tall courtyard walls hide the branches that spill over the wall into the next yard. Because of this, the owner of the fruit tree may not be able to see the fruit hanging on the branches in their neighbor's yard.   Joseph originally lived in Canaan with Jacob and his eleven brothers. Suddenly, his brothers attacked him, sold him to the Ishmaelites, and brought him to Egypt. Metaphorically, we can say that the archers (his brothers) attacked him. Later, Potiphar's wife (who was another archer used by the enemy) falsely accused him of rape and sent him to prison. Genesis 49:23 describes this series of tragedies: “The archers bitterly attacked him, shot at him, and harassed him severely.” Why? Because Joseph had God's calling on his life. God wanted to save the world through him. Because of God's calling on his life, evil spirits used humans to vigorously attack Joseph. These “archers” tried their best to attack Joseph. Psalm 105:18-19 says of Joseph, “His feet were hurt with fetters; his neck was put in a collar of iron; until what he had said came to pass, the word of the Lord tested him.”   But this suffering did not knock Joseph down. On the contrary, God was with him wherever he went. God helped him, strengthened him, and turned his life into a beautiful testimony of salvation. Through Joseph, the world was saved from famine. Because of his godliness, Joseph received the firstborn rights which the eldest son, Reuben, lost because of his immorality. Joseph's two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim, received double portions of the land and became two separate tribes of Israel. This fulfills the prophecy of Genesis 49:24: “Yet his bow remained unmoved; his arms were made agile by the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob (from there is the Shepherd, the Stone of Israel).”   These words of prophecy were not solely heartfelt words of blessing from Jacob to his son Joseph, but they were also words inspired by God. Jacob went on, “By the God of your father who will help you, by the Almighty who will bless you with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that crouches beneath, blessings of the breasts and of the womb. The blessings of your father are mighty beyond the blessings of my parents, up to the bounties of the everlasting hills. May they be on the head of Joseph, and on the brow of him who was set apart from his brothers" (Genesis 49:25-26). In the life of Joseph, we see an example of God's wishes for America.   America, A Modern-Day Joseph If we as Christians are rooted in the Lord, we can become like Joseph, a fruitful vine that extends over the wall. Joseph does not just represent individuals but also countries that are called by God to witness for Him. In the Old Testament, Joseph represents Israel. God wanted Israel to be His witness to the nations in order to attract them to Him.   Today, Joseph represents America. America was founded so that Christians could worship Jesus freely. Modern-day America is like Israel in the Old Testament: a city on a hill, a light to the world, and a witness for Jesus Christ. I have often heard it said that since its founding, America is responsible for sending more financial aid and missionary witnesses than any country in history. America is a modern-day Joseph. Her branches run over the wall, bearing fruit outside her borders.   I came to the United States in 2002. Although there was a Gospel revival in China at that time, most of the revival took place in rural areas where the Chinese government's control was less strict. In cities and universities, intellectuals have almost no or little chance to hear the Gospel. So, God created an environment, allowing many Chinese scholars to study in the US. It is estimated that half of the students from mainland China who came to the US received the Gospel. Almost every campus in the US maintains campus fellowship groups to preach the Gospel to Chinese students. These groups include Chinese Christians and Chinese churches but also American Christian campus ministries such as Campus Crusade. I was saved in one of these campus fellowship groups in Southern California.   Without America, I may not have received Christ. After I was saved, I continued to study Christian literature available in English. I am now currently finishing a Doctor of Ministry degree program. As I have studied, I realized that the richness of American Christianity rooted me more firmly in America and in the Christian traditions of Europe and the ancient church. Although we are all rooted in Christ directly, we are also rooted in our Christian traditions through our language and culture. Many Christian works have not yet been translated into Chinese, and I would not have been able to access this information were it not for English translations available in America. Through the English Christian classics, I have become rooted in thousands of years of Christian tradition.   Just like Joseph was rooted by the fountain, the United States is rooted in thousands of years of rich history of European Christian civilization. Their roots go all the way back to Paul's gospel work in Europe, which can be traced back to the ministry of Jesus Christ on earth. God has called America to be rooted by the fountain, like Joseph, and send her fruit-bearing branches over the wall to many nations. As a result, however, archers are attacking America severely. Evil spirits are finding numerous ways to shoot at her, seeking to lure her into sin. Through the sins of the flesh and of the worldly nations that are against America, evil spirits attack her simultaneously from both the inside and the outside. Their purpose is to cut down America, the expansive vine that is rooted in God.   America Will Not Be Taken Down! After I received the revelation about America being like Joseph, I exclaimed, “Now, they are cutting America off from its roots, which is the same as cutting me off from my roots. They absolutely can't do that! Not on my watch!” I explained to the Chinese Christians in the meeting why I felt so strongly to resist the opposition with my proclamation, “Not on my watch!” It's not because I'm arrogant. Instead, it's because I've made up my mind to become a modern-day Joseph. No matter how hard the archers try to attack us, we must remain unmoved. Our arms must remain agile because the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob will help us. He will bless us. He will bless America, just like he blessed Joseph. The all-sufficient God of Jacob will bless Joseph with blessings of heaven from above, blessings of the deep that lie beneath, and blessings of the breasts and of the womb.   Each Christian has the opportunity to stand as a modern-day Joseph. Meanwhile, America is the collective modern-day Joseph. Jacob's blessings to Joseph surpass the blessings of Jacob's ancestors, reaching the utmost bounds of the everlasting hills; these blessings will be on Joseph's head and on the crown of the heads of those who are separated from their brothers (Genesis 49:25-26). These words are for Americans today. Although I thank God for using President Trump, he is not our salvation. Our salvation comes through the rising of the Church as every Christian becomes like Joseph. As each of us rises to become like Joseph, rooted in God, our branches will bear fruit, run over the wall, and make an impact on people outside the church walls. Our relatives, friends, and those who have not yet believed in the Lord will be reached by our low-hanging branches of Christian fruit and testimony.   Therefore, I said, “Don't lose hope.” I encouraged the Chinese American Christians in that meeting. Because of the current difficulties, some of them were believing the lie that America was about to be defeated and abandoned by God. “God will not abandon America,” I said. America will not be defeated. America is Joseph. Although the archers are trying to attack her, her bow remains unmoved. As American Christians wake up, they will use their agile arms to fight back. The God of Jacob will help us. This is Jacob's prophecy to Joseph and it's the Holy Spirit's words for America today. If American Christians ever needed encouragement, it's now. We Chinese believers are fruits of America's branches that ran over the wall. America's branches have borne countless fruits and have run all over the world.   I don't know about the rest of the world, but I know that in America and China alone, there are millions of Chinese Christians praying for America. We stand like Aaron and Hur, who held up Moses' hands and prayed while Joshua was fighting his battle against his enemies. There are countless Christians in other countries praying that America (Joseph) will be able to fight her battles well. This battle will end with victory. God will definitely help America because God is the Shepherd and the Stone of Israel (and America as well) (Genesis 49:24).   Horns Of A Wild Ox Moses' prophecy to Joseph has some similarities to Jacob's prophecy. In it, Joseph received all the blessings in heaven and on earth (Deuteronomy 33:13-15). Like Jacob, Moses described Joseph as a “prince among his brothers” (Deuteronomy 33:16). In addition, Joseph was described as “a firstborn bull—he has majesty, and his horns are the horns of a wild ox; with them he shall gore the peoples, all of them, to the ends of the earth; they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh” (Deuteronomy 33:17).   Joseph had authority and power. He was the steward in the house of Pharaoh in Egypt. His brothers bowed before him. Joseph dealt harshly with his brothers, even throwing Simeon in jail. In the end, he led his brothers to repent of their sins. Likewise, a modern-day Joseph will not only bring the Gospel of Life to the world but will also be a majestic bull with the horns of a wild ox. America is like Joseph in this respect as well. God has blessed her, and she has become the most powerful country in the world. She upholds justice and spreads the Gospel to the ends of the world. America will fiercely gore the nations and people who resist God and the Gospel, with the horns of a wild ox. This is why nations unite to try to knock America down. Unfortunately for them, God has already ordained Joseph's future and thus America's too.   Written by Sean Song on October 19, 2021. (All scriptures are quoted from English Standard Version.)

The “Age of Discovery” is traditionally known as a period between the 15th and 16th centuries, when European Christian powers sailed west and encountered lands and peoples previously unknown to them. However, speaking to David Musgrove, Professor Marc David Baer contends that this narrative overlooks the influential role of the Ottoman empire. (Ad) Marc David Baer is the author of The Ottomans: Khans, Caesars and Caliphs (Basic Books, 2021). Buy it now from Amazon:https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ottomans-Khans-Caesars-Caliphs/dp/1473695708/?tag=bbchistory045-21&ascsubtag=historyextra-social-viewingguide See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

It's remarkable that as recently as 1986, we had a hit movie, with A-list stars (Jeremy Irons, Robert De Niro) and an A-list composer (Ennio Morricone), that takes a nuanced look at a controversial historical subject, European Christian missionary activity. The Mission could not be made today.  The Mission was written by Robert Bolt (A Man for All Seasons, Lawrence of Arabia, Doctor Zhivago) and directed by Roland Joffe (The Killing Fields, There Be Dragons).  Gerald Russello, editor of the University Bookman, joins James and Thomas to discuss the film's moral complexity in dealing with sin, repentance, and issues of obedience; as well as the relevant historical subjects, such as the South American Jesuit missions and how Catholic Europe worked out issues of human rights in theory and practice during the colonial era. Watch this discussion on YouTube: https://youtu.be/S-MruaPfJV4 Links The University Bookman https://kirkcenter.org/bookman/ This podcast is a production of CatholicCulture.org. If you like the show, please consider supporting us! http://catholicculture.org/donate/audio

Sunday AM - July 25, 2021

Leviticus ends with a long list of horrifying predictions (or curses) of the vicious suffering of the Israelites when they eventually enter the Land and break the covenant.  Western Civilization has been shaped by European Christian intellectuals who created the unchallenged image (and therefore a Western bias) that the God of the Old Testament is a God who is disposed toward anger and punishment, who seems to enjoy punisment and retribution (and thus God had to be made flesh in the Son to introduce Love).  In this podcast, I ask us to hear these verses as the words of the Mother, who, as in Wendell Berry's poem (which I read at the end) sees the Mother foreseeing one's sins, suffering in that foreknowledge with you, before you, with love and forgiveness already there symbolized by the made bed, the "you can always come home" that transcends the future into the past.  Is the angry God we project, really the No-God of Jeremiah, the idol of our own making, which externalizes our own anger at climate change, social and racial inequality, rather than God the Mother who suffers along with us within the thorn bush of the Burning Bush but is not consumed?

We mentioned John Locke in the episode on the Scientific Revolution. And Leibniz. They not only worked in the new branches of science, math, and philosophy, but they put many of their theories to use and were engineers.  Computing at the time was mechanical, what we might now think of as clockwork. And clockwork was starting to get some innovative new thinking. As we've covered, clockworks go back thousands of years. But with a jump in more and more accurate machining and more science, advances in timekeeping were coming. Locke and Huygens worked on pendulum clocks and then moved to spring driven clocks. Both taught English patents and because they didn't work that well, neither were granted. But more somethings needed to happen to improve the accuracy of time.  Time was becoming increasingly important. Not only to show up to appointments and computing ever increasing math problems but also for navigation. Going back to the Greeks, we'd been estimating our position on the Earth relative to seconds and degrees. And a rapidly growing maritime power like England at the time needed to use clocks to guide ships. Why? The world is a sphere. A sphere has 360 degrees which multiplied by 60 minutes is 21,600. The North South circumference is 21603 nautical miles. Actually the world isn't a perfect sphere so the circumference around the equator is 21,639 nautical miles. Each nautical mile is 6,076 feet. When traveling by sea, trying to do all that math in feet and inches is terribly difficult and so we came up with 180 lines each of latitude, running east-west and longitude running north-south. That's 60 nautical miles in each line, or 60 minutes. The distance between each naturally goes down as one gets closer to the poles - and goes down a a percentage relative to the distance to those poles. Problem was that the most accurate time to check your position relative to the sun was at noon or to use the Polaris North Star at night. Much of this went back to the Greeks and further. The Sumerians developed the sexagesimal system, or base 60 and passed it down to the Babylonians in the 3rd millennium BCE and by 2000 BCE gave us the solar year and the sundial. As their empire grew rich with trade and growing cities by 1500 BCE the Egyptians had developed the first water clocks timers, proved by the Karnak water clock, beginning as a controlled amount of water filling up a vessel until it reached marks. Water could be moved - horizontal water wheels were developed as far back as the 4th millennium BCE.  Both the sundial and the water clock became more precise in the ensuing centuries, taking location and the time of the year into account. Due to water reacting differently in various climates we also got the sandglass, now referred to as the hourglass.  The sundial became common in Greece by the sixth century BCE, as did the water clock, which they called the clepsydra. By then it had a float that would tell the time. Plato even supposedly added a bowl full of balls to his inflow water clock that would dump them on a copper plate as an alarm during the day for his academy.  We still use the base 60 scale and the rough solar years from even more ancient times. But every time sixty seconds ticks by something needs to happen to increment a minute and every 60 minutes needs to increment an hour. From the days of Thales in the 600s BCE and earlier, the Greeks had been documenting and studying math and engineering. And inventing. All that gathered knowledge was starting to come together. Ctesibius was potentially the first to head the Library of Alexandria and while there, developed the siphon, force pumps, compressed air, and so the earliest uses of pneumatics. He is accredited for adding a scale and float thus mechanics. And expanding the use to include water powered gearing that produced sound and moved dials with wheels. The Greek engineer Philo of Byzantium in the 240s BCE, if not further back, added an escapement to the water clock. He started by simply applying a counterweight to the end of a spoon and as the spoon filled, a ball was released. He also described a robotic maid who, when Greeks put a cup in her hand, poured wine.  Archimedes added the idea that objects displaced water based on their volume but also mathematical understanding of the six simple machines. He then gets credited for being the first to add a gear to a water clock. We now have gears and escapements. Here's a thought, given their lifetimes overlapping, Philo, Archimedes, and Ctesibius could have all been studying together at the library. Archimedes certainly continued on with earlier designs, adding a chime to the early water clocks. And Archimedes is often credited for providing us with the first transmission gears. The Antikythera device proves the greeks also made use of complex gearing. Transferring energy in more complex gearing patterns. It is hand cranked but shows mathematical and gearing mastery by choosing a day and year and seeing when the next eclipse and olympiad would be. And the Greeks were all to happy to use gearing for other devices, such as an odometer in the first century BCE and to build the Tower of the Winds, an entire building that acted as a detailed and geared water clock as well as perhaps a model of the universe.  And we got the astrolabe at the same time, from Apollonius or Hipparchus. But a new empire had risen. The astrolabe was a circle of metal with an arm called an alidade that users sighted to the altitude of a star and based on that, you could get your location. The gearing was simple but the math required to get accurate readings was not. These were analog computers of a sort - you gave them an input and they produced an output. At this point they were mostly used by astronomers and continued to be used by Western philosophers at least until the Byzantines. The sundial, water clocks, and many of these engineering concepts were brought to Rome as the empire expanded, many from Greece. The Roman Vitruvius is credited with taking that horizontal water wheel and flipping it vertical in 14 CE. Around the same time, Augustus Caesar built a large sundial in Campus Martius. The Romans also added a rod to cranks giving us sawmills in the third century. The larger the empire the more time people spent in appointments and the more important time became - but also the more people could notice the impact that automata had. Granted much of it was large, like a windmill at the time, but most technology starts huge and miniaturizes as more precision tooling becomes available to increasingly talented craftspeople and engineers.  Marcus Vitruvius Pollio was an architect who wrote 10 books in the 20s BCE about technology. His works link aqueducts to water-driven machinations that could raise water from mines, driven by a man walking on a wheel above ground like a hamster does today but with more meaning. They took works from the Hellenistic era and put them in use on an industrial scale. This allowed them to terraform lands and spring new cities into existence. Sawing timber with mills using water to move saws allowed them to build faster. And grinding flour with mills allowed them to feed more people. Heron of Alexandria would study and invent at the Library of Alexandria, amongst scrolls piled to the ceilings in halls with philosophers and mechanics. The inheritor of so much learning, he developed vending machines, statues that moved, and even a steam engine. If the Greeks and early Roman conquered of Alexandria could figure out how a thing work, they could automate it.  Many automations were to prove the divine. Such as water powered counterweights to open doors when priests summoned a god, and blew compressed air through trumpets. He also used a wind mill to power an organ and a programmable cart using a weight to turn a drive axle. He also developed an omen machine, with ropes and pulleys on a gear that caused a bird to sing, the song driven by a simple whistle being lowered into water. His inventions likely funding more and more research.  But automations in Greek times were powered by natural forces, be it hand cranked, fire, or powered by water. Heron also created a chain driven automatic crossbow, showing the use of a chain-driven machine and he used gravity to power machines, automating devices as sand escaped from those sand glasses. He added pegs to pulleys so the distance travelled could be programmed. Simple and elegant machines. And his automata extended into the theater. He kept combining simple machines and ropes and gravity into more and more complex combinations, getting to the point that he could run an automated twenty minute play. Most of the math and mechanics had been discovered and documented in the countless scrolls in the Library of Alexandria.  And so we get the term automated from the Greek word for acting of oneself. But automations weren't exclusive to the Greeks. By the time Caligula was emperor of the Roman Empire, bronze valves could be used to feed iron pipes in his floating ships that came complete with heated floors. People were becoming more and more precise in engineering and many a device was for telling time. The word clock comes from Latin for bell or clogga. I guess bells should automatically ring at certain times. Getting there... Technology spreads or is rediscovered. By Heron the Greeks and Romans understood steam, pistons, gears, pulleys, programmable automations, and much of what would have been necessary for an industrial or steampunk revolution. But slaves were cheap and plentiful in the empire. The technology was used in areas where they weren't. Such as at Barbegal to feed Arles in modern France, the Romans had a single hillside flour grinding complex with automated hoppers, capable of supplying flour to thousands of Romans. Constantine, the first Christian Roman emperor, was based there before founding Constantinople. And as Christianity spread, the gimmicks that enthralled the people as magic were no longer necessary. The Greeks were pagans and so many of their works would be cleansed or have Christian writings copied over them. Humanity wasn't yet ready. Or so we've been led to believe.  The inheritors of the Roman Empire were the Byzantines, based where Europe meets what we now think of as the Middle East. We have proof of geared portable sundials there, fewer gears but showing evidence of the continuation of automata and the math used to drive it persisting in the empire through to the 400s. And maybe confirming written accounts that there were automated lions and thrones in the empire of Constantinople. And one way geared know-how continued and spread was along trade routes which carried knowledge in the form of books and tradespeople and artifacts, sometimes looted from temples. One such trade route was the ancient Silk Road (or roads). Water clocks were being used in Egypt, Babylon, India, Persia, Greece, Rome, and China. The Tang Dynasty in China took or rediscovered the escapement to develop a water powered clockwork escapement in the 700s and then in the Song Dynasty developed astronomical clock towers in the 900s. By now the escapements Su Sung is often credited for the first mechanical water clock in 1092. And his Cosmic Engine would mark the transition from water clocks to fully mechanical clocks, although still hydromechanical. The 1100s saw Bhoja in the Paramara dynasty of India emerge as a patron of the arts and sciences and write a chapter on mechanical bees and birds. These innovations could have been happening in a vacuum in each - or word and works could have spread through trade.  That technology disappeared in Europe, such as plumbing in towns that could bring tap water to homes or clockworks, as the Roman Empire retreated. The specialists and engineers lacked the training to build new works or even maintain many that existed in modern England, France, and Germany. But the heads of rising eastern empires were happy to fund such efforts in a sprint to become the next Alexander. And so knowledge spread west from Asia and was infused with Greek and Roman knowhow in the Middle East during the Islamic conquests. The new rulers expanded quickly, effectively taking possession of Egypt, Mesopotamia, parts of Asia, the Turkish peninsula, Greece, parts of Southern Italy, out towards India, and even Spain. In other words, all of the previous centers of science. And they were tolerant, not looking to convert conquered lands to Islam. This allowed them to learn from their subjects in what we now think of as the Arabic translation movement in the 7th century when Arabic philosophers translated but also critiqued and refined works from the lands they ruled. This sparked the Muslim golden age, which became the new nexus of science at the time. Over time we saw the Seljuks, ruling out of Baghdad, and Abbasids as Islamic empires who funded science and philosophy. They brought caravans of knowledge into their capitals. The Abbasids even insisted on a specific text from Ptolemy (the Almagest) when doing a treaty so they could bring it home for study. They founding of schools of learning known as Madrasas in every town. This would be similar to a university system today. Over the centuries following, they produced philosophers like Muhammad Ibn Musa Al-Khwarizmi, who solved quadratic equations, giving us algebra. This would become important to make clockwork devices became more programmable (and for everything else algebra is great at helping with). They sent clockworks as gifts, such as a brass automatic water clock sent to Charlemagne between 802 and 807, complete with chimes. Yup, the clogga rang the bell. They went far past where Heron left off though. There was Ibn-Sina, Al-Razi, Al-Jazari, Al Kindi, Thābit ibn Qurra, Ridwan, and countless other philosophers carrying on the tradition. The philosophers took the works of the Greeks, copied, and studied them. They evolved the technology to increasing levels of sophistication. And many of the philosophers completed their works at what might be considered the Islamic version of the Library of Alexandria, The House of Wisdom in Baghdad. In fact, when Baghdad was founded about 50 miles north of ancient Babylon, the Al-Mansur Palace Library was part of the plan  and over subsequent Caliphs was expanded adding an observatory that would then be called the House of Wisdom. The Banu Musa brothers worked out of there and wrote twenty books including the first Book of Ingenious Devices. Here, they took the principles the Greeks and others had focused on and got more into the applications of those principles. On the way to their compilation of devices, they translated books from other authors, including A Book on Degrees on the Nature of Zodiacal Signs from China and Greek works.The three brothers combined pneumatics and aerostatics. They added plug valves, taps, float valves, and conical valves. They documented the siphon and funnel for pouring liquids into the machinery and thought to put a float in a chamber to turn what we now think of as the first documented crank shaft. We had been turning circular motion into linear motion with wheels, but we were now able to turn linear motion into circular motion as well. They used all of this to describe in engineering detail, if not build and invent, marvelous fountains. Some with multiple jets alternating. Some were wind powered and showed worm-and-pinion gearing.   Al-Biruni, around the turn of the first millennia, came out of modern Uzbekistan and learned the ancient Indian Sanskrit, Persian, Hebrew, and Greek. He wrote 95 books on astronomy and math. He studied the speed of light vs speed of sound, the axis of the earth and applied the scientific method to statics and mechanics. This moved theories on balances and weights forward. He produced geared mechanisms that are the ancestor of modern astrolabes.  The Astrolabe was also brought to the Islamic world. Muslim astronomers added newer scales and circles. As with in antiquity, they used it in navigation but they had another use, to aid in prayer by showing the way to Mecca.  Al-Jazari developed a number of water clocks and is credited with others like developed by others due to penning another Book of Knowledge of Ingenious Mechanical Devices. Here, he describes a camshaft, crank dive and reciprocating pumps, two way valves, and expanding on the uses of pneumatic devices. He developed programmable humanoid robots in the form of automatic musicians on a boat. These complex automata included cams and pegs, similar to those developed by Heron of Alexandria, but with increasing levels of sophistication, showing we were understanding the math behind the engineering and it wasn't just trial and error. All golden ages must end. Or maybe just evolve and migrate. Fibonacci and Bacon quoted then, showing yet another direct influence from multiple sources around the world flowing into Europe following the Holy Wars.  Pope Urban II began inspiring European Christian leaders to wage war against the Muslims in 1095. And so the Holy Wars, or Crusades would begin and rage until 1271. Here, we saw manuscripts copied and philosophy flow back into Europe. Equally as important, Muslim Caliphates in Spain and Sicily and trade routes. And another pair of threats were on the rise. The plague and the Mongols.  The Mongol invasions began in the 1200s and changed the political makeup of the known powers of the day. The Mongols sacked Baghdad and burned the House of Wisdom. After the mongols and Mughals, the Islamic Caliphates had warring factions internally, the empires fractured, and they turned towards more dogmatic approaches. The Ottomon empire rose and would last until World War I, and while they continued to sponsor scientists and great learners, the nexus of scientific inquiry and the engineering that inspired shifted again and the great works were translated with that shift, including into Latin - the language of learning in Europe. By 1492 the Moors would be kicked out of Spain. That link from Europe to the Islamic golden age is a critical aspect of the transfer of knowledge. The astrolabe was one such transfer. As early as the 11th century, metal astrolabes arrive in France over the Pyrenees to the north and to the west to Portugal . By the 1300s it had been written about by Chaucer and spread throughout Europe. Something else happened in the Iberian peninsula in 1492. Columbus sailed off to discover the New World. He also used a quadrant, or a quarter of an astrolabe. Which was first written about in Ptolemy's Almagest but later further developed at the House of Wisdom as the sine quadrant.  The Ottoman Empire had focused on trade routes and trade. But while they could have colonized the New World during the Age of Discovery, they didn't. The influx of wealth coming from the Americas caused inflation to spiral and the empire went into a slow decline over the ensuing centuries until the Turkish War of Independence, which began in 1919.  In the meantime, the influx of money and resources and knowledge from the growing European empires saw clockworks and gearing arriving back in Europe in full force in the 14th century.  In 1368 the first mechanical clock makers got to work in England. Innovation was slowed due to the Plague, which destroyed lives and property values, but clockwork had spread throughout Europe. The Fall of Constantinople to the Ottomons in 1453 sends a wave of Greek Scholars away from the Ottoman Empire and throughout Europe. Ancient knowledge, enriched with a thousand years of Islamic insight was about to meet a new level of precision metalwork that had been growing in Europe. By 1495, Leonardo da Vinci showed off one of the first robots in the world -  a knight that could sit, stand, open its visor independently. He also made a robotic lion and repeated experiments from antiquity on self driving carts. And we see a lot of toys following the mechanical innovations throughout the world. Because parents.  We think of the Renaissance as coming out of Italy but scholars had been back at it throughout Europe since the High Middle Ages. By 1490, a locksmith named Peter Hele is credited for developing the first mainspring in Nurnburg. This is pretty important for watches. You see, up to this point nearly every clockwork we've discussed was powered by water or humans setting a dial or fire or some other force. The mainspring stores energy as a small piece of metal ribbon is twisted around an axle, called an abror, into a spiral and then wound tighter and tighter, thus winding a watch.  The mainspring drove a gear train of increasingly smaller gears which then sent energy into the escapement but without a balance wheel those would not be terribly accurate just yet. But we weren't powering clocks with water. At this point, clocks started to spread as expensive decorations, appearing on fireplace mantles and on tables of the wealthy. These were not small by any means. But Peter Henlein would get the credit in 1510 for the first real watch, small enough to be worn as a necklace. By 1540, screws were small enough to be used in clocks allowing them to get even smaller. The metals for gears were cut thinner, clock makers and toy makers were springing up all over the world. And money coming from speculative investments in the New World was starting to flow, giving way to fuel even more investment into technology. Jost Burgi invented the minute hand in 1577. But as we see with a few disciplines he decided to jump into, Galileo Galilei has a profound impact on clocks. Galileo documents the physics of the pendulum in 1581 and the center of watchmaking would move to Geneva later in that decade. Smaller clockworks spread with wheels and springs but the 1600s would see an explosion in hundreds of different types of escapements and types of gearing.  He designed an escapement for a pendulum clock but died before building it.  1610 watches got glass to protect the dials and 1635 French inventor Paul Viet Blois added enamel to the dials. Meanwhile, Blaise Pascal developed the Pascaline in 1642, giving the world the adding machine. But it took another real scientist to pick up Galileo's work and put it into action to propel clocks forward. To get back to where we started, a golden age of clockwork was just getting underway. In 1657 Huygens created a clock driven by the pendulum, which by 1671 would see William Clement add the suspension spring and by 1675 Huygens would give us the balance wheel, mimicking the back and forth motion of Galileo's pendulum. The hairspring, or balance spring, then controlled the speed making it smooth and more accurate. And the next year, we got the concentric minute hand. I guess Robert Hooke gets credit for the anchor escapement, but the verge escapement had been in use for awhile by then. So who gets to claim inventing some of these devices is debatable. Leibniz then added a stepped reckoner to the mechanical calculator in 1672 going from adding and subtracting to multiplication and division. Still calculating and not really computing as we'd think of it today. At this point we see a flurry of activity in a proton-industrial revolution. Descartes puts forth that bodies are similar to complex machines and that various organs, muscles, and bones could be replaced with gearing similar to how we can have a hip or heart replaced today. Consider this a precursor to cybernetics. We see even more mechanical toys for the rich - but labor was still cheap enough that automation wasn't spreading faster.  And so we come back to the growing British empire. They had colonized North America and the empire had grown wealthy. They controlled India, Egypt, Ireland, the Sudan, Nigeria, Sierra Leone, Kenya, Cyprus, Hong Kong, Burma, Australia, Canada, and so much more. And knowing the exact time was critical for a maritime empire because we wouldn't get radar until World War II.  There were clocks but still, the clocks built had to be corrected at various times, based on a sundial. This is because we hadn't yet gotten to the levels of constant power and precise gearing and the ocean tended to mess with devices. The growing British Empire needed more reliable ways than those Ptolemy used to tell time. And so England would offer prizes ranging from 10,000 to 20,000 pounds for more accurate ways to keep time in the Maritime Act in 1714. Crowdsourcing. It took until the 1720s. George Graham, yet another member of the Royal Society, picked up where Thomas Tompion left off and added a cylinder escapement to watches and then the deadbeat escapement. He chose not to file patents for these so all watch makers could use them. He also added mercurial compensation to pendulum clocks. And John Harrison added the grid-iron compensation pendulum for his H1 marine chronometer. And George Graham added the cylinder escapement.  1737 or 1738 sees another mechanical robot, but this time Jacques de Vaucanson brings us a duck that can eat, drink, and poop. But that type of toy was a one-off. Swiss Jaquet-Droz built automated dolls that were meant to help sell more watches, but here we see complex toys that make music (without a water whistle) and can even write using programmable text. The toys still work today and I feel lucky to have gotten to see them at the Museum of Art History in Switzerland. Frederick the Great became entranced by clockwork automations. Magicians started to embrace automations for more fantastical sets.  At this point, our brave steampunks made other automations and their automata got cheaper as the supply increased. By the 1760s Pierre Le Roy and Thomas Earnshaw invented the temperature compensated balance wheel. Around this time, the mainspring was moved into a going barrel so watches could continue to run while the mainspring was being wound. Many of these increasingly complicated components required a deep understanding of the math about the simple machine going back to Archimedes but with all of the discoveries made in the 2,000 years since.  And so in 1785 Josiah Emery made the lever escapement standard. The mechanical watch fundamentals haven't changed a ton in the past couple hundred years (we'll not worry about quartz watches here). But the 1800s saw an explosion in new mechanical toys using some of the technology invented for clocks. Time brings the cost of technology down so we can mass produce trinkets to keep the kiddos busy.  This is really a golden age of dancing toys, trains, mechanical banks, and eventually bringing in spring-driven wind-up toys.  Another thing happened in the 1800s. With all of this knowhow on building automations, and all of this scientific inquiry requiring increasingly complicated mathematics, Charles Babbage started working on the Difference Engine in 1822 and then the Analytical Engine in 1837, bringing in the idea of a Jacquard loom punched card. The Babbage machines would become the precursor of modern computers, and while they would have worked if built to spec, were not able to be run in his lifetime.  Over the next few generations, we would see his dream turn into reality and the electronic clock from Frank Hope-Jones in 1895. There would be other innovations such as in 1945 when the National Institute of Standards and technology created the first atomic clock. But in general parts got smaller, gearing more precise, and devices more functional. We'd see fits and starts for mechanical computers, with Percy Ludgate's Analytical Machine in 1909, the Marchant Calculator in 1918, the electromechanical Enigma in the 1920s, the Polish Enigma double in 1932, the Z1 from Konrad Zuse in 1938, and the Mark 1 Fire Control Computer for the US Navy in the World War II era, when computers went electro-mechanical and electric, effectively ending the era of clockwork-driven machinations out of necessity, instead putting that into what I consider fun tinkerations. Aristotle dreamed of automatic looms freeing humans from the trappings of repetitive manual labors so we could think. A Frenchman built them. Long before Aristotle, Pre-Socratic Greek legends told of statues coming to life, fire breathing statues, and tables moving themselves. Egyptian statues were also known to have come to life to awe and inspire the people. The philosophers of the Thales era sent Pythagoras and others to Egypt where he studied with Egyptian priests. Why priests? They led ascetic lives, often dedicated to a branch of math or science. And that's in the 6th century BCE. The Odyssey was written about events from the 8th century BCE.  We've seen time and time again in the evolutions of science that we often understood how to do something before we understood why. The legendary King Solomon and King Mu of the Zhao dynasty are said to have automata, or clockwork, or moving statues, or to have been presented with these kinds of gifts, going back thousands of years. And there is the chance that they were. Since then, we've seen a steady advent of this back and forth between engineering and science.  Sometimes, we understand how to do something through trial and error or random discovery. And then we add the math and science to catch up to it. Once we do understand the science behind a discovery we uncover better ways and that opens up more discoveries. Aristotle's dream was realized and extended to the point we can now close the blinds, lock the doors, control the lights, build cars, and even now print cars. We mastered time in multiple dimensions, including Newton's relative time. We mastered mechanics and then the electron and managed to merge the two. We learned to master space, mapping them to celestial bodies. We mastered mechanics and the math behind it. Which brings us to today. What do you have to do manually? What industries are still run by manual labor? How can we apply complex machines or enrich what those can do with electronics in order to free our fellow humans to think more? How can we make Aristotle proud? One way is to challenge and prove or disprove any of his doctrines in new and exciting ways. Like Newton and then Einstein did. We each have so much to give. I look forward to seeing or hearing about your contributions when its time to write their histories!

We’re seeing more books in English that depart - and expand - the western/European/Christian canon of fiction that feels very narrow in today’s day and age. This is especially true for fantastic fiction, and today we talk of two books that stretch the boundaries to India and Africa, and show just how the fantastic fits in with a new set of values - and a new set of readers. This is episode #21 of Bookasur, talking about ghosts in walls, post-modern vs modern horror, unnerving folk tales, epic cities and a girl made of water. Books featured: Ringa Ringa Roses, by Neil D’Silva Black Leopard, Red Wolf, by Marlon James, by Hamish Hamilton/Penguin -------- Published 19th November 2020. Find out more about Bookasur here: https://www.psnissim.com/p/bookasur.html P.S. Nissim tweets at: https://twitter.com/ps_nissim Title Music: Jazz In Paris by Media Right Productions used under Creative Commons

What is Hoodoo? The Basics of this folk loreMy name is Lacie. I’m the host, creator, visual artist and producer. Welcome to the Talk About Apples the podcast! This is the folklore of the fictional character Dr. Apples and his universe. So enjoy!In his 16th birthday, Dr. Apples was kidnapped by fairies and replaced with a doll. He’s traveled through various planets, dimensions, and realms. He was tortured and was on his way to find his way to his mother. [3:32] Hoodoo began as a religion. Some argue that a hoodoo is a mixture of African practices, native American influences and European Christian folk practice. [4:24] Miss BaRule is a witch and also practices hoodoo. She’s extremely gifted in magic. [4:53] Just because you found happiness and peace in your life, does not mean that bad things don’t happen to you. It’s a matter how you react and your energy towards them will help you maintain to your peace. [5:32] Hoodoo can come in the forms of healing potions, prayers, and spells. There are many resources that can be used and create the desired outcome or manifestations (i.e oils, candles, herbs, amulets). After the late 20th and earl 21st centuries, hoodoo was believed to be capable of like: paralysis, weight loss, hair loss, miscarriages, falling desperately in love with someone, bodily pain and etc. Thank you so much for joining us this week on Talk About Apples! Mentioned in the podcast:· Visit http://talkaboutapples.com/ to subscribe to the show and comment every episode· Stay up to date with the Dr. Apples Universe by signing up to the newsletter· Tune in every Tuesdays and Thursdays for new episodes and tell a friend about this folklore! #TalkAboutApples NEWSLETTER BUZZSPROUT SIGNUP#TalkAboutApplesSupport the show (https://www.patreon.com/drapples)

Day of the DeadThere's really no way to describe it. One minute you have it all. The next all is gone. Its hard to describe the feeling of death. Unless someone near you has died.Then you experience that sting that you cannot put into words. Death reminds us about love because we were created to love. And when someone dies, we find it strange, not showing and sharing that love. This past summer I had to bury one of our alpacas. Our furry friends can become our family and its like losing someone that you came to love. Sweet little alpaca would no longer greet me. What is it about death That is so hard to understand? if you've ever lost someone, you know, that feeling that you would do anything to see them again, anything to talk to them again, anything to hug them again.Death is perhaps the only thing humans have found no cure for. If you’ve ever lost a friend or family member, you know the pain of this. But this morning I want to talk to you about the idea of talking to our dead relatives. If a visitor from another world were to sit down on a couch with us and turn on Hulu or Netflix or Disney – ok especially Disney – there is something – a theme – an idea they would start to pick up. Once I tell you you will say ‘oh yea, that’s true’. It's the idea that somehow, there is life beyond. Somehow death is not the end. Somehow, in ways we don’t fully understand…yet – death is still a mystery but that contacting our loved ones --- or them contacting us is such a beautiful thought. Here in America, we are pretty obsessed with this idea of death being nothing more than a gateway to the next life. Whether it’s zombies, the undead, ghosts, conjuring spirits or anything we celebrate on Halloween these days – death has become big business – especially the scary side of it. But then there’s the other side – the beautiful side – the idea of reconnecting with our loved ones. I lost my dad in a car accident a few years back. There really isn’t much you can say other than ‘man I would trade the whole world – just to talk to that person one more time’ and usually our desire to talk to them is to tell them how much we love them. That’s why in most films – Love and Death are so interconnected. Now if you’ve ever heard of the story of scripture – the real meta narrative you would know that this war between good and evil – love and selfishness – life and death started before humans arose on the scene. With this war, a large segment of the citizens of another realm were kicked out of the capital of the galactic realms. And the bible basically tells us the inner workings of this war and it really comes down to who has the power over life…and death. The bible describes a day in our future when it will seem as though the dead – from our time and centuries in the past will appear to us . Now the question we should be asking if this is a battle for our souls and our destiny – could it be possible that this banished legion race of beings could personify our loved ones with the hope and attempt to deceive us? If your loved one walked up behind you right now and sounded, smelled and seemed the same as they did while alive – is there anything you know or believe that would help you determine if this was them or not? And on that note, if death is just a portal to the next life then why do we fight so hard to stay alive? We love the idea of talking to the dead, celebrating life after death and who can blame us ? The Sumerians did, the Egyptians did,  the Persians, the Greeks, the idea of talking to the dead is found in Homer's Odyssey..and  the Romans And now the Christians.  Ok you get it, its chronic, and its basically everyone. So here's a few stats about this phenomenon, Pew research, estimated that nearly 1.4 million people – that’s more people than there are members of my denomination – that 1.4 million people in the United States identify as practicing Witches.  There are more witches in North America than there are mainline Presbyterians author. Julie Royce is quoted as saying that Wicca is A form of paganism that is effectively repackaged witchcraft for the millennial consumption. No longer are witchcraft and paganism, satanic and demonic. It's a pre-Christian tradition that promotes free thought and understanding of earth and nature. I’m really fascinated right now with the gorwing discussion or tension I should say of people who worship the creator vs. those who worship the creation. I think this is the great issue of worship in the world today – it was the same in history – whether they were called gentiles or heathen or pagans vs those who were monotheistic. The American religious identification survey gives Wicca an average annual growth of 143%. And latest estimates say that the movement is doubling in size every 30 months. According to the journal, the statesman and Elizabeth wind claims the two most recent American religious identification surveys, declare WCA one form of paganism as the fastest growing spiritual identification in America. The high holiday of wicca and paganism is Halloween. It finds its origin over 2000 years ago, with the Druids when it was believed that the boundary between this world and the underworld was thinner than usual, where the spirits could come into the world more easily, but not just any spirits. a supernatural race of spirits generally described as stunningly beautiful. But if they want They can also be terrible and hideous. According to Patricia Monahan, most scholars believed they were a degraded version of ancient gods. Also on this night, the souls of dead relatives were thought to visit the homes of all who celebrated The Holiday, The Holiday involved people going house to house in costume or in disguise, usually reciting verses or songs in exchange for food. It may have originally been a tradition whereby people impersonated the the souls of the dead and received offerings on their behalf. People Would set out soul cakes full of sweet fruit on out all hallows' Eve as an offering for the dead. This is where most believe we find the origin of trick or treat for all those good yummy candies. Americans, mostly Protestants did not celebrate this holiday for reasons of conviction, but as the cultural makeup changed. So did the celebration in the late 1800s and into the 19th and the 20th century,Halloween is branded as scary and spooky in the United States. but Let's contrast that with the day of the dead or DIA de Los Muertos festivities that take place over two days in an explosion of color and life affirming joy in Mexico and central and South America and growing around the world.This idea of engaging with the dead is not isolated to a few holidays. We see it in our literature, in our television shows and in our movies and kids are not excluded from this phenomenon. First, there was Casper. Now there's Coco. ThePixar film that was the number one film of all time in Mexico. It is one of the top 100 grossing films of all time. So what does the Bible say about this? Perhaps you care, perhaps you don't, but I at least think you, owe it to yourself to know what the Bible says about this idea of talking to the dead. Here’s one reason – nearly 2 billion people call themselves Christians in the world. Most of them believe the dead can make contact with us. Yet the bible says those who die, never return to the land of the living – but guess who it says do ? The fallen angels of heaven – to deceive. The gospel of Jesus is sin leads to death but I have died for you so that you can live forever. The gospel of Lucifer says sin is not that bad, live as you wish, death is the just the beginning. One we find in John 3:16 – the latter in Genesis 3:4. We are going to put a link to some more details on this idea in the comments below this video. Ok so Here’s another reason -  it's not the dead you're talking to. That's the most startling thing the Bible has to say about this topic. You are not talking to your dead relatives. According to the Bible, the dead sleep and await a resurrection. They don't have thoughts or feelings and they don't come back to talk to the living. If we go back to the beginning of the story, the first message shared by the fallen angel Lucifer was to Eve in a garden. And this was it. Eve, regardless of your actions, you'll never die. No matter what you do, you're going to live forever. This is where we get the idea that death is just a doorway into the next state of consciousness. But if this is true, this is a question we should ask ourselves, are we all saved? How does that make you feel? Everyone ends up being saved. Maybe that makes you feel good. Maybe that makes you wonder about that person that abused you. When you were a kid about Hitler, about people in the world that do what we call evil things. You mean they're going to be my neighbor in paradise without a standard by which people are determined to live in paradise or not. We have to ask ourselves, what is that standard?I don't like the idea of living next to Hitler in paradise. The reason this idea is so important is because it has so many ramifications. Are we judged ? If so by whom? are we all saved? Why would someone not be saved? If we die and pass on to the next life or paradise, then why not expedite the process? Why do we fight off death so much in this world? Why not let the sick die faster? Why don't we stop looking for cures to all these diseases? Why don't we get rid of things like life support.It's easy to play with this idea until you come face to face with it. 1st Samuel chapter 28. This is the story of a man who was King. he's in despair. There is an army gathering against his country against his kingdom. And in verse three, we read now Samuel had died. Everything changes when someone close to you dies and nothing can prepare you for it. All Israel had lamented for him and buried him in Ramah in his own city and saul, had put the mediums and the spiritists out of the land. These are key details. He had put them out and there's a reason for that.Saul Had followed God. And while he did, he had success. But the land was filled with the Philistines and their religion, like most heathen or pagan religions, like most all religions in the world today were built on the belief that the dead can come back and talk to the living that they can help foretell future events. If you had someone that could tell you what tomorrow may bring, you would absolutely want to know. Even if it meant they were coming back from the dead.. The gods of the old Testament were not just imaginary. Talking about these ‘gods’ David tells us the history of his people and the great sin of King Saul- They did not destroy the peoples, as the Lord commanded them, but they mixed with the nations and learned to do as they did. They served their idols, which became a snare to them. They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to the demons; they poured out innocent blood (Psalm 106:34-38).the demons, the fallen angels, legion race were the gods of the old Testament and all these different gods were demons that somehow in some way had personified themselves. And then the people had made an idol after this demon. And if the angels are in the proportions that we read and legend says, they're extremely tall, 12, 16, 18 foot tall beings, and very Beautiful. (Deut 32:16-17). They stirred him to jealousy with strange gods; with abominations they provoked him to anger. They sacrificed to demons that were no gods, to gods they had never knownDeuteronomy 18 also tells us that they were sacrificing their children, Paul says in 1 Corinthians 10 that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God.This was profound. When I learned this concept that these weren't just ignorant people. They were worshiping beings with a ton of talent and skill and wisdom.Early Church leaders such as Justin Martyr and Tertullian held similar views (that the gods were actually demons).Why would ancient civilizations talk to these beings? We learn in 2 Kings 19:35 that one angel – one of these type of beings killed 185,000 soldiers in one night. You hear talk of generals from wars in our recent history who were communing with these same beings. Saul had followed God's word in the beginning and gotten rid of the mediums. The spiritists, the fortune tellers, the necromancers anyone that claimed to get truth from the deadSaul’s army – Israel is surrounded, death seems imminent – He’s terrified. And when Saul prayed, we are told the Lord did not answer him either by dreams or by Urim or by the prophets. Saul is looking for answers, what are we supposed to do. And sadly we learn that he had rejected God earlier in the story. Samuel's dead. He was the voice of God to Saul. When you lose someone close to you in your life, you instantly start looking for someone to talk to, especially if this person was close to you. When I lost my dad, I remember thinking, I would do anything to talk to him. I knew the biblical teaching of the dead. But for months and months after, I would have dreams about my dad. And it began to mess with my mind because I would see my dad in my dreams. I would talk to him. It's not until you lose someone that you realize this power of love,This idea of loss.It helps you really  Begin to understand the power of this doctrine of Lucifer. A Friend of mine shared a story with me about a young boy in Africa. He loved to spend time with his grandmother. She would read stories to him. She would play with him and he just loved his grandma. He would sit by her while she read these stories in her rocking chair. Sadly, she got sick and she died. And the mom knew that the boy took this very hard. He loved his grandmother, but for weeks after she noticed him coming into the house with a smile on his face and heading straight to his room.She couldn't put the pieces together. So finally, she asked him, why are you going straight into your room? And he said because grandma rubs my head and read stories to me. Life is made up of these concepts and ideas, which equate to emotions and actions. You have a choice. No one else has this choice to determine what you believe and how it affects your behavior. What we believe about this topic may have greater consequences than many give it credit for.So we pick up our story in 1 Samuel 28. Saul asks for a medium, his men know exactly where to find one. But in the end it spelled disaster. See our notes for a deeper study on this topic. More Detailed Referenced Notes Below: Question: There is no way to describe the sting of death until you experience it for yourself. Death reminds us about love because we were created to love and when someone dies we find it strange not showing and sharing that love anymore. A few weeks back I found one of our alpacas that had died in the night and I was devastated. I loved her so much. What is it about death that is so hard to understand? If you have ever lost someone you know the feeling that you’d do anything to see them again, to talk to them again. Death is perhaps the only thing humans have not found the cure for. I want to tell you the story of a king who lost his closest confidant. That person he could share his heart with. He was in despair not knowing where to turn for hope and in that moment he did something he condemned others for doing and began looking for a medium - someone who could conjure up the dead. Preview: If the Bible is true, the countless experiences of the living talking to dead loved ones may not be as they seem. If 1/3 of the angels were cast out of heaven, and are in a war against us, what do you think would be the best way to get into your life?  By what means? If by chance it was through someone you loved, how would you know the difference between talking to a dead relative or a demon impersonating your loved one? And if the dead are permitted in to paradise, why would they not in love come back and minister to us in the land of the living? Data/Facts: We love the idea of communicating with the dead, and celebrating life after death. And hey who can blame us? The Sumerians did, the Egyptians did, the Persians, the Greeks, The Romans, and now the Christians… The oldest account of necromancy -talking to the dead- outside of Scripture is found in Homer’s Odyssey.Pew Research in 2014 estimated that with numbers at nearly 1.4 million - There may now be more Americans who identify as practicing witches/wiccans… than there are Seventh-day Adventists in North America. More than there are members of mainline Presbyterianism.” -…(https://qz.com/quartzy/1411909/the-explosive-growth-of-witches-wiccans-and-pagans-in-the-us/)Author Julie Roys says - “Wicca (which is a form of paganism) has effectively repackaged witchcraft for Millennial consumption. No longer are witchcraft and paganism satanic and demonic… it’s a ‘pre-Christian tradition’ that promotes ‘free thought’ and ‘understanding of earth and nature.’ - says. Yet such repackaging is deceptive, Roys added, "but one that a generation with little or no biblical understanding is prone to accept."It's tragic, and a reminder of how badly we need spiritual revival in this country, and also that 'our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the powers of this dark world,'" she said, referencing Ephesians 6, which explains spiritual warfare.The American Religious Identification Survey gives Wicca an average annual growth of 143% and latest estimates say that the movement is doubling in size every 30 months [179][269] According to The Statesman - Anne Elizabeth Wynn claims "The two most recent American Religious Identification Surveys declare Wicca, one form of paganism, as the fastest growing spiritual identification in America”.[270]From the Witch School in Salem, Massachusettes, yea its a real thing and really in Salem. “ Wicca is America's Fastest Growing religion, and it is anticipated by some Christian religious experts that it will become the third largest religion in the United States early in the 21st century, behind only Christianity and Islam. Editor Thomas Horn states - “In the United States alone, … [there are] as many as 8 million unregistered practitioners of ‘the craft’.”This leads us to the second biggest holiday in America - Halloween.  Halloween has become big business in the United States.  2nd highest spending after Christmas. $9.0 Billion this year - 2 billion dollars more than all that was spent on the 2016 elections. We will spend more money escaping reality for a day than we did electing the leaders of the free world. There is a reason flu season coincides with Halloween with the amount of candy eaten in the next week. Halloween finds it origin over 2000 years ago with the Celts/Druids who called it Samhain, when it was believed that the boundary between this world and the underworld was thinner than usual. Where the spirits could come into the world more easily. But not just any spirits - the Eeesheee - a supernatural race of spirits. The aos sí are generally described as stunningly beautiful, though they can also be terrible and hideous. According to Patricia Monaghan, most scholars believed they were a degraded versions of ancient gods.  Monaghan, Patricia (2014). The Encyclopedia of Celtic Mythology and Folklore. Infobase publishing. p. 167.)Also on this night, the souls of dead relatives were thought to visit the homes of all who celebrated. The holiday involved people going house-to-house in costume (or in disguise), usually reciting verses or songs in exchange for food. It may have originally been a tradition whereby people impersonated the Aos Sí, or the souls of the dead, and received offerings on their behalf, similar to the custom of souling. Impersonating these beings, or wearing a disguise, was also believed to protect oneself from them. It was a holiday of impersonation. Impersonation - Someone who imitates or copies the behavior or actions of another. People would set out ‘soul cakes’ full of sweet fruit - on All Hallows' Eve as an offering for the dead. This is where most believe we find the origin of trick or treating for sweets. ( Kullstroem, Chris (27 May 2009). Making a Monstrous Halloween: Themed Parties, Activities and Events. McFarland. p. 85. ISBN9780786444380. “The Halloween tradition of trick-or-treating started as a European Christian custom called souling.”) For a long time Americans, mostly protestants, did not celebrate this holiday for religious reasons. As the cultural makeup changed so did the celebration. In the late 1800s and into the 20th century it became a community holiday and did not include the spook and dark side that we see coming back today. Perhaps where there is no light, darkness reigns.  This idea of conjuring the dead is said to be one of the most common themes in most video games today - usually by raising up warriors as zombies to fight in battle.Halloween is branded as scary and spooky in the United States. It is celebrated over the course of a day. Day of the Dead or Dia de los Muertos festivities however, unfold over two or more days in an explosion of color and life-affirming joy in Mexico, in central and south America and growing around the world.The Day of the Dead originated several thousand years ago with the Aztec, Toltec, and other Nahua people, who considered mourning the dead disrespectful. For these pre-Hispanic cultures, death was a natural phase in life’s long continuum. The dead were still members of the community, kept alive in memory and spirit—and during Día de los Muertos, they temporarily returned to Earth.Then there is the altar. Where families put the favorite food of the family member and even toys the children because of their long journey. Often they will put marigolds leading the way back to the grave. This idea is not isolated to a few holidays. We see it in literature, in our television shows and in our movies and kids are not excluded.For Example - the Pixar film - Coco - the #1 film of all time in Mexico and one of the highest grossing films of all time is all about making the idea of talking to our dead loved ones as fun as the day of the dead portrays. What once was condemned we now pay to enjoy. So what does the Bible say about this idea of communicating with the dead? First off, it’s not the dead we are communicating with. According to the Bible the dead sleep and await a resurrection. They don’t have thoughts or feelings and don’t come back to talk to the living. So then who is it so many are talking to? The first message shared by the fallen angel Lucifer to Eve was “regardless of your actions, you won’t die” This is where we get the idea that death is just a doorway to the next state of consciousness. But if this is true, then are we all saved? Without a standard by which people are determined to live in paradise or not, are all saved? Do I have the joy of looking forward to living next to Hitler and other evil men in paradise? I don’t like that idea. The reason this idea is so important is because it has so many ramifications. Are we judged? By whom? Based on what? Are we all saved? Why would someone not be saved? If we die and pass on to the next life or paradise, then why not expedite that process? Why do we fight off death so much in the world, why not let the sick die faster, stop looking for cures to diseases, get rid of things like life support. It’s easy to play with this idea until you come face to face with it. BIBLE/STORY - Setting - 1 Samuel 28:3(Endor) - Saul had followed God and while he did he had success. The land was filled with the Phillistines and their religion which was built on the belief that the dead can come back and talk to the living…and that they can help foretell future events. Not many know that the great gods of the old testament were not just neat ideas, they were based on something. (https://www.thoughtco.com/false-gods-of-the-old-testament-700162)—-Talking about these ‘gods’ David tells us the history of his people and the great sin of King Saul- They did not destroy the peoples, as the Lord commanded them, but they mixed with the nations and learned to do as they did. They served their idols, which became a snare to them. They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to the demons; they poured out innocent blood (Psalm 106:34-38).We learn here that the gods of the old testament were actually demons.(Deut 32:16-17). They stirred him to jealousy with strange gods; with abominations they provoked him to anger. They sacrificed to demons that were no gods, to gods they had never knownDeut 18:9-12 - 9When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do according to the abominations of those nations. 10There shall not be found among you any one who maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or who useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12For all who do these things are an abomination unto the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee (KJV).Though Mosaic Law prescribed the death penalty to practitioners of necromancy (Leviticus 20:27What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he? (1 Cor 10:20-22)Early Church Fathers such as Justin Martyr and Tertullian held similar views (that the gods were actually demons).——So just to be clear, the fallen angels are also known as demons. And the demons were what the majority of nations worshipped in the old world. Psalm 8:5 tells us man was made with lesser powers than the angelsHow powerful is one angel - we know from 2 Kings 19:35 - one angel killed 185,000 soldiers in one night. The Good news is that each of us has a guardian angel commissioned to be with us through our lives. Now if you have a full time bodyguard with superpowers, could it be that your life is threatened by an enemy? So Saul had gotten rid of Mediums, Spiritists,, fortunetellers - Necromancers as Deuteronomy commanded. 1 Samuel 28:3-6Saul is longing for answers. Notice verse 3 - Samuel has died. He was the voice of God to Saul. Have you ever lost someone close to you? You know this feeling of love being cut off suddenly. I have. A few years back I got a call that my dad had died in a car accident. Sudden. You think of the your last conversation. You think of the good times. You would do ANYTHING to talk to them again. Let me repeat that - You would do ANYTHING to talk to them again. I know the Bible teaching on the dead, yet for months and even years I would have dreams where I would see my dad, talk to him, even know he was dead yet everything in my being - in my dream - wanted to hug him, talk to him. Not until you lose someone and realize the power of love and loss do you begin to really understand the power of this doctrine of the devil - that death is a doorway to the next life. Did I think it was a good thought if my dad was looking down from heaven or up from hell at his family so sad without him? When we really think of death and the heresies that have come even into the church we have to realize why so many want nothing to do with God. Saul was desperate and he called for a medium. He knew better but he was would do ANYTHING to find answers.1 Samuel 28:7- 25——-Why address this today? Because if the Bible is true, then something is coming, a deception thousands of years in the making onto our planet. The most powerful medium - friends and family, who seem to come to us, look the same, sound the same, smell the same, and are here to comfort us and ‘warn us’ of coming danger. I can tell you everything in your soul will WANT TO BELIEVE these beings impersonating your loved ones. This is where faith and feeling will fight their greatest battle. The only thing telling you this is not real is Scripture and the truth that the dead know nothing (Eccl 9:5) and Job 7:9-10 - As a cloud vanishes and is gone, so one who goes down to the grave does not return. He will never come to his house again; his place will know him no more.1 Timothy 4:1 - The Spirit clearly says that in the last days some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.1 Timothy 4:3 - For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.as we learn this story of the battle between good and evil we learn that there are other worlds out there (Hebrews 11) we learn that 1/3 of the angels and their general are confined to this earth now.(Revelation 12) We learn that those beings from other worlds are not coming here to be contaminated by sin. Therefore we are under quarantine. Which means any discussion of aliens is a discussion of fallen angels visiting this planet. I know Hollywood has painted a picture that together if we unite we can fight the coming invaders, but the only invaders coming from outside of this planet are Christ and the unfallen angels at the second coming, because the fallen ones are already here. Demons - fallen angels - are organized, have special skills like filling someone with pride, anger, lust, rage, depression, despair, gluttony, resentment and the list goes on…The new testament is filled with examples of demon possession especially as Jesus walked the earth. In Mark 5:9 we learn of a man suffering possession and it is declared to be “Legion” when Jesus asked the name - the roman term for at least 5000 in a division of the army. We also learn in 2 Corinthians 11:14 that Lucifer - the fallen archangel of heaven is planning to personate christ before the true second coming. We also learn that the fallen angels are going to impersonate loved ones who have gone to sleep i.e. died. Why? Because this is the most powerful MEDIUM to sway someones belief system. I had a friend in elementary school who’s family had spoken to their dead daughter- his sister. There is NO. LET ME REPEAT. NO WAY to reason with someones apparent reality. They saw her, they spoke to her, and I was not going to convince them otherwise. The dead can appear to talk to the living, it’s just not the dead but demons masquerading as loved ones with the sole desire to deceive us. A friend recently shared a story about a boy in Africa. He loved to spend time with his grandmother and sit by her while she read stories to him in her rocking chair. Sadly she got sick and died. The mom knew the boy took this very hard. For weeks after, she noticed he kept heading to his room more often than usual and with a look of happiness. Finally she asked him why. He said because grandma rubs my head and reads stories to me still.Life is made up of concepts and ideas which equate to emotions and actions. You have a choice on what you believe and how it effects your behavior. This topic and a complete understanding of it impacts so many other beliefs and ideas. It has influenced this planet since the first day and will be an issue until the last day. The reason it is all so important is because it is about love. God loves us and does not want to see us deceived and lost. We have to decide if that love is worth it…For why should we seek the living among the dead? (Luke 24:5)

The discovery doctrine, also called doctrine of discovery, is a concept of public international law expounded by the United States Supreme Court in a series of decisions, most notably Johnson v M'Intosh in 1823. Chief Justice John Marshall explained and applied the way that colonial powers laid claim to lands belonging to foreign sovereign nations during the Age of Discovery. Under it, title to lands lay with the government whose subjects travelled to and occupied a territory whose inhabitants were not subjects of a European Christian monarch. The doctrine has been primarily used to support decisions invalidating or ignoring aboriginal possession of land in favor of modern colonial/imperial governments, such as in the 2005 case of Sherrill v Oneida Nation. The 1823 case was the result of collusive lawsuits where land speculators worked together to make claims to achieve a desired result. John Marshall explained the Court's reasoning. The decision has been the subject of a number of law review articles and has come under increased scrutiny by modern legal theorists. Accession has different definitions depending upon its application. In property law, it is a mode of acquiring property that involves the addition of value to property through labor or the addition of new materials. For example, a person who owns a property on a river delta also takes ownership of any additional land that builds up along the riverbank due to natural deposits or man-made deposits. In commercial law, accession includes goods that are physically united with other goods in such a manner that the identity of the original goods is not lost. In English common law, the added value belongs to the original property's owner. For example, if the buyer of a car has parts added or replaced and the buyer then fails to make scheduled payments and the car is repossessed, the buyer has no right to the new parts because they have become a part of the whole car. In modern common law, if the property owner allows the accession through bad faith, the adder of value is entitled to damages or title to the property. If the individual who adds value to the owner's chattel (personal property) is a trespasser or does so in bad faith, the owner retains title and the trespasser cannot recover labor or materials. The owner of the chattel may seek conversion damages for the value of the original materials plus any consequential damages. Alternatively, the owner may seek replevin (return of the chattel). However, the owner may be limited to damages if the property has changed its nature by accession. For example, if a finder discovers a gemstone and in good faith believes it to be abandoned and then cuts it and integrates it into a work of art, the true owner may be limited to recovery of damages for the value of the gemstone but not of the final art piece by way of replevin. The remedies and application of the law vary by legal jurisdiction. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/law-school/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/law-school/support

The Crusades - the sequence of religious wars fought between the late eleventh century and late medieval periods. Crusading armies from European Christian states attempted to wrest the Holy Land from Islamic rule in wars which have left an enduring imprint on relations between the Muslim world and the West to this day. Hear tales soaked in Islamic, Christian and Jewish blood, peopled by extraordinary characters, and characterised by both low ambition and high principle.In this episode from the 2019 Festival, Dan Jones, best-selling chronicler of the Middle Ages, writer, historian and TV presenter, talks about his book Crusaders with Trinity College Dublin historian Dr Conor Kostick, who has himself written about the crusades. Recorded at Printworks, Dublin Castle, on 19th October 2019. Our GDPR privacy policy was updated on August 8, 2022. Visit acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Crusades - the sequence of religious wars fought between the late eleventh century and late medieval periods. Crusading armies from European Christian states attempted to wrest the Holy Land from Islamic rule in wars which have left an enduring imprint on relations between the Muslim world and the West to this day. Hear tales soaked in Islamic, Christian and Jewish blood, peopled by extraordinary characters, and characterised by both low ambition and high principle.In this episode from the 2019 Festival, Dan Jones, best-selling chronicler of the Middle Ages, writer, historian and TV presenter, talks about his book Crusaders with Trinity College Dublin historian Dr Conor Kostick, who has himself written about the crusades. Recorded at Printworks, Dublin Castle, on 19th October 2019. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Welcome back to our ongoing series about the history of the ongoing conflict in America—and how we fix it. In our last three blogs, we discussed the basics of the Wisdom Paradigm—the dominant way of understanding life for thousands of years—for almost all cultures, religions and philosophies. The Wisdom Paradigm teaches us that human nature has been the same through history, and that we all have the same destination in life, the same purpose, which is Happiness, fulfillment. Happiness comes from having good relationships—with ourselves and with others. If Happiness is our destination and purpose, then we use our reason to figure out how to get there. Reason tells us that it’s a fact that if we practice virtues like honesty, justice, wisdom and love, we will become good people prepared for good relationships and Happiness. Finally, the Wisdom Paradigm sees human relationships as fundamentally covenant relationships where the good of the team and the good of the individual are the same. The more you put into the team, the better you get. The more the team invests in you, the better the team gets. Covenant relationships are the highest-trust, highest-performance and most stable relationships possible. In the deepest covenant relationships, people are willing to die for each other out of love. The Wisdom Paradigm was the right track for the ongoing development of humanity—until we took a wrong turn and got off track several hundred years ago. What happened? What got us off-track? Religious Wars in Europe In the 16th and 17th centuries, Europe was overcome by a series of religious wars that raged for hundreds of years. These religious wars devastated large parts of France and Germany, and led to the deaths of millions of people. The wars took a terrible toll on Europe, impoverishing millions more and driving governments to bankruptcy. In many areas, there was anarchy as rival armies marched back and forth, plundering everything. Civil wars broke out as people took advantage of religious differences and bankrupt rulers to take power themselves. The suffering throughout Europe was enormous and long-lasting in a way that is hard for us to understand today. Think of the devastation of the civil war in Syria, but across Europe and for a hundred years. People and nations became exhausted and impatient by the suffering that seemed to be unending and systemic. Thinkers began to search for a new way to understand life—a new paradigm—that could get them out of the terrible religious and political conflicts. They needed to find a way for people of different religions to live together without killing each other. This led to the is the rise of political philosophers like Hobbes and Locke and Rousseau that you may remember from your political sci class in college. The Modern Paradigm--Reason Alone The Wisdom Paradigm is based on a foundation of purpose and reason. As we said in earlier blogs, our purpose, Happiness, is our destination in life and reason tells us how to get there. Ever since Europe had become Christian, faith had taken the role of purpose. So, for European Christian civilizations, the equation was essentially faith/purpose and reason. Faith provided the purpose, the destination (salvation), and reason helped people understand what was needed to achieve salvation. The horrific wars in Europe were over religion, over faith, over what people understood to be their purpose or destination in life. So, for many European philosophers, the answer to ending the vast suffering was obvious. Let’s drop that thing, faith, over which we’re killing each other, and reconstruct our entire understanding of life in terms of reason by itself. They do that by splitting life into public and private. Instead of the Wisdom Paradigm’s understanding of life as a unified whole focused on Happiness, the Modern Paradigm splits life into your public life and your private, or personal life.

Welcome back to our ongoing series about the history of the ongoing conflict in America—and how we fix it. In our last three blogs, we discussed the basics of the Wisdom Paradigm—the dominant way of understanding life for thousands of years—for almost all cultures, religions and philosophies. The Wisdom Paradigm teaches us that human nature has been the same through history, and that we all have the same destination in life, the same purpose, which is Happiness, fulfillment. Happiness comes from having good relationships—with ourselves and with others. If Happiness is our destination and purpose, then we use our reason to figure out how to get there. Reason tells us that it’s a fact that if we practice virtues like honesty, justice, wisdom and love, we will become good people prepared for good relationships and Happiness. Finally, the Wisdom Paradigm sees human relationships as fundamentally covenant relationships where the good of the team and the good of the individual are the same. The more you put into the team, the better you get. The more the team invests in you, the better the team gets. Covenant relationships are the highest-trust, highest-performance and most stable relationships possible. In the deepest covenant relationships, people are willing to die for each other out of love. The Wisdom Paradigm was the right track for the ongoing development of humanity—until we took a wrong turn and got off track several hundred years ago. What happened? What got us off-track? Religious Wars in Europe In the 16th and 17th centuries, Europe was overcome by a series of religious wars that raged for hundreds of years. These religious wars devastated large parts of France and Germany, and led to the deaths of millions of people. The wars took a terrible toll on Europe, impoverishing millions more and driving governments to bankruptcy. In many areas, there was anarchy as rival armies marched back and forth, plundering everything. Civil wars broke out as people took advantage of religious differences and bankrupt rulers to take power themselves. The suffering throughout Europe was enormous and long-lasting in a way that is hard for us to understand today. Think of the devastation of the civil war in Syria, but across Europe and for a hundred years. People and nations became exhausted and impatient by the suffering that seemed to be unending and systemic. Thinkers began to search for a new way to understand life—a new paradigm—that could get them out of the terrible religious and political conflicts. They needed to find a way for people of different religions to live together without killing each other. This led to the is the rise of political philosophers like Hobbes and Locke and Rousseau that you may remember from your political sci class in college. The Modern Paradigm--Reason Alone The Wisdom Paradigm is based on a foundation of purpose and reason. As we said in earlier blogs, our purpose, Happiness, is our destination in life and reason tells us how to get there. Ever since Europe had become Christian, faith had taken the role of purpose. So, for European Christian civilizations, the equation was essentially faith/purpose and reason. Faith provided the purpose, the destination (salvation), and reason helped people understand what was needed to achieve salvation. The horrific wars in Europe were over religion, over faith, over what people understood to be their purpose or destination in life. So, for many European philosophers, the answer to ending the vast suffering was obvious. Let’s drop that thing, faith, over which we’re killing each other, and reconstruct our entire understanding of life in terms of reason by itself. They do that by splitting life into public and private. Instead of the Wisdom Paradigm’s understanding of life as a unified whole focused on Happiness, the Modern Paradigm splits life into your public life and your private, or personal life.

Chris Wigram

In the Book of Acts, we meet Lydia -- an independent businesswoman who is possibly the first European Christian convert (Acts 16:9-15). Part of what makes Lydia unique is that scripture records her name -- unlike 90-95% of the women mentioned in the Bible. What does it mean for someone's name or identity to be erased, both in scripture and in the world today? 

Let's see why these groups have such moral superiority over Muslims. Watch this video on Youtube: https://youtu.be/SA5EIWNhvPs Please support Ilmstitute: Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ilmstitute GoFundMe: https://www.gofundme.com/ilmstitute PayPal: https://www.paypal.me/ilmstitute Social Media: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/brothersaajid Twitter: https://twitter.com/saajidlipham Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ilmstitute/

Download PDF Welcome to Larisa English Club #30 What’s in The News? Where Did Apple Trees Originate From? Speaking Practice. Pastimes and Hobbies! English Grammar. Adjectives and Personality Words! What’s in The News? Where Did Apple Trees Originate From? The apple tree is a deciduous tree in the rose family best known for its sweet, fruit, the apple. It is cultivated worldwide as a fruit tree. The tree originated in Central Asia, where its wild ancestor is still found today. Apples have been grown for thousands of years in Asia and Europe, and were brought to North America by European colonists. Apples have religious and mythological significance in many cultures, including Norse, Greek and European Christian traditions. Apple trees are large if grown from seed. Generally apple trees are propagated by grafting onto root stocks, which control the size of the resulting tree. There are more than 7,500 known varieties of apples, resulting in a range of desired characteristics. Different varieties are bred for various tastes and uses, including cooking, eating raw and cider production. Trees and fruit are prone to a number of fungal, bacterial and pest problems, which can be controlled by a number of organic and non-organic means. Worldwide production of apples in 2014 was 84.6 million tons, with China accounting for 48% of the total. When cultivated, the size, shape and branch density are determined by root-stock selection and trimming method. The leaves are alternately arranged dark green-colored simple ovals with serrated margins and slightly downy undersides. Speaking Practice. Pastimes and Hobbies! Roger: What do you do in your spare time? Barry: Oh, nothing special. I read… watch TV… go to the movies. Roger: Don’t you have any hobbies, like reading or things like that? Barry: No, I don’t have any hobbies. How about you? Roger: I have just one—photography. It’s expensive, but it’s a lot of fun. Language Notes Spare time = Leisure time or extra time or free time. Nothing special = No particular thing. I read. . . watch TV … go to the movies. Reading… A compound noun. How about you? = Do you have any hobbies? English Grammar. Adjectives and Personality Words! What are personality adjectives? Personality adjectives are used to describe a persons personality or character. Everyone has a different personality. It is important to study and learn personality adjectives. Describing objects and people is easier with the proper vocabulary. We often use adverbs “so, very, really and quite” to emphasize adjectives. Often we use a prefix to create the opposite meaning of a word. Positive Personality Adjectives Examples: I like my best friend because she is always so positive! He is a creative person in his job! She is always frank when she shares her opinion! It is a friendly cat. Simon is always close to me! He is so funny. I really like his movies! There are many words used to describe personalities. The examples above are meant to help you with grammar, pronunciation and intonation. Learn more here https://larisaenglishclub.com/pdf-resources/larisa-english-club-30-pdf-version/

Rebecca and Andrew talk about the way plants work in their lives – through sharing about their studies and personal journeys with plants. They also talk about fear and how pushing through that brings better things even though it isn't easy. Finally they also talk about traditional knowledge and how to respect elders an indigenous people.  Find Rebecca at BloodandSpicebush.com and the classes at Sassafras-School.com Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here.  Transcription ANDREW: [00:00:01] Welcome to The Hermit's Lamp podcast episode 93. I am here with Rebecca Beyer, who is an herbalist and plant person and does all sorts of wonderful things in that environment. For [00:00:17] those who don't know you, Rebecca, give us . . . give us a quick introduction. Who are you? What do you . . . what are you about? REBECCA: Hi! I'm about, I guess, I'm about Appalachia and I'm about plants and [00:00:32] I'm about traditional witchcraft. That's like those three things. I think. ANDREW: Yeah. Well, if people don't know what Appalachia is . . . REBECCA: Yeah! ANDREW: Let's start with that, because maybe not everybody does.  REBECCA: That's so interesting and [00:00:47] I love that you all are up in Canada. So it's really cool to to know, you don't know what Appalachia is! [chuckling]  ANDREW: I mean, I think people . . . I do, but yeah, let's, let's just make sure nobody has to go Google anything mid-podcast.  REBECCA: That's such a good idea. Yeah, Appalachia is a region, [00:01:02] which is debated, that's cultural and ecological in the Eastern side of the United States. It's a mountain range that extends from, culturally, I would say, you know, Western Pennsylvania through Northern Georgia, [00:01:17] but mountain-wise and ecologically through a few different regions on the Eastern Seaboard, kind of inland. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: So, this big mountain range, the Appalachian Mountains. Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And there's a lot of spiritual tradition that's [00:01:32] kind of from that area, right? Like a lot of, sort of more folk magic and you know, those kinds of approaches, right? REBECCA: Yeah, that's one of the things that I am a student of and teach is Appalachian folk magic, and [00:01:47] I'm very passionate about . . . and especially where plants and plant lore come into that story. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. So did you grow up with that or did you find your way into it? Like how did that come about for you? REBECCA: That's a good question. I did not grow [00:02:02] up with it. I grew up on a farm in New Jersey. ANDREW: Okay. REBECCA: And, yeah . . . and halfway in both states. And it's funny cause when I tell people I'm from New Jersey, they're like, "Oh, you're not, you don't seem like you're from New Jersey at all," and I'm like, "Are you saying like, I'm not an asshole," like what? ANDREW: [laughing] REBECCA: What are [00:02:19] you saying? I don't know if I'm allowed to say that on the air. ANDREW: I'm sorry to everybody in New Jersey who's listening to this. Yeah. REBECCA: Well, I'm sorry, because I like, you know, I had a beautiful upbringing in a very pretty little country spot in central New Jersey. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And I [00:02:34] loved our little farm, but we didn't raise plants. We just raised animals.  ANDREW: Okay. REBECCA: But I've always loved, I feel like since I was a little girl I wanted to be a witch. It was just something I've always been interested in and I was raised in the Unitarian Universalist Church. [00:02:49] So I met a lot of witches and it was easy to start studying witchcraft seriously. At around 12, I kind of dedicated myself to studying it and, through that, became more interested in plants and realizing that they could be used for more than food. [00:03:04]  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. And, so how did the head of the Appalachian part come in? Like, did you meet somebody, did you like, you know, go stand on a mountain and be like, oh, this is home. Like . . . ?  REBECCA: That's a good question. [00:03:19] I was obviously a very weird kid as we've, most of us probably were. ANDREW: Sure. REBECCA: And very socially isolated. We moved nine times when I was a kid, so I didn't have strong connections with other human adults till I was 18, when I moved to Upstate New York to go to college [00:03:34] at Bard College, and I met my now best friend Sarah Lynch Thomason, who's an Appalachian ballad singer, who's from Nashville, Tennessee. And she moved to Asheville right after we graduated from college. She graduated ahead of me, and she was like, you [00:03:49] HAVE to move here, Asheville, North Carolina, like, it is what's up. So I just packed my truck with all my things and drove to Asheville. And--after I graduated from college--and I just lived in her living room for two weeks. ANDREW: Right. REBECCA: And then I just fell [00:04:04] in love. I tried to leave, once, I think to go back up to Vermont where I had been living before, and I think that lasted like three weeks and I came back. So that was in 2010 when I moved here. So I've been here for longer now than anywhere I've ever lived in my life. ANDREW: It's [00:04:19] interesting how, you know, like I think about . . . I mean, Vermont's got lots of mountains. Upstate New York's got lots of mountains, you know? It's funny how, you know, from a geologic point of view, anyway, there's [00:04:34] this like, oh look. Well, it's all mountains. What about . . . what is it about those mountains? What is it about that place that drew you in or captivated you?  REBECCA: That's a good question. Well, I think, geologically speaking, the Appalachians are so special, [00:04:49] because they're some of the oldest mountains in the world, which we forget in America. We often like to excoticize--and I'll say North America, to include all of us on this continent--like to exoticize things from far away, but we have some of the most ancient land masses [00:05:05] in existence right at our fingertips, and it's pretty incredible. And plant communities that are very unique. And to me, the extreme biodiversity of where we live in southern Appalachia, where I live is temperate [00:05:20] rain forest. So we have more plants than anywhere except for North Alabama, which has the most diverse plant life in the United States.  ANDREW: That's amazing. REBECCA: Mm-hmm.   ANDREW: And did you find . . . do you feel like . . . You [00:05:35] know, like, lots of people talk about sort of spirit of place, right? as a thing that's sort of emerged into people's awareness more over time. And you know, at least more recently from my perspective. REBECCA: Yeah. ANDREW: You know, do you feel that that's part of it [00:05:50] for you? Like is there, is there a spirit of the land where you're actually hanging out that's, that's part of your life?  REBECCA: Yes, my friend Marcus McCoy who started the Veridis Genii Symposium . . . ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: When I was [00:06:05] early 20s--you probably know him--when I was in my early 20s, I stumbled across his blog, Bioregional Animism, and it really changed . . . It gave me words for things that I had felt but I didn't know were names for and other [00:06:20] bloggers have now gone on to further that idea, which was, you know, kind of coined, I'd say in the 70s with the rise of bioregional scholarship, on just like, policy and land management.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: They took it deeper, you know? I [00:06:35] wrote a lot of my thesis--I have a master's degree in Appalachian Studies--and I wrote my thesis on--which is really silly, I know. But I looked a lot at like the history of bioregionalism and like what makes Appalachia and regional studies important. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And [00:06:51] to me, in this globalized world, you know, we struggle for meaning, you can see it everywhere. Especially white folks, like without any cultural, strong cultural ties, will grab onto any strong cultural tie from any culture that [00:07:06] we can find. And yeah, and I think a lot of that comes from a lack of grounding in place. So to me, I do think there is a spirit of Appalachia. My friend Byron Ballard, who's a well-known Appalachian folk practitioner, she, in our area, says there's [00:07:21] a mother Appalachia, this kind of an entity that makes this place so special. And to me, I'm also a musician, I'm an artist, and all the things I do revolve around Appalachian folk practice. And to me, it's like helped me ground in, because [00:07:36] I wasn't raised here . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: Into the life way and the art way and the music way of this place. And not necessarily say, this is mine, it's from me, but wow, I participate in this, and I love it, and I want [00:07:51] to, you know, support it and continue it and nurture it.  ANDREW: Yeah. I think it's always interesting when people, you know, or never mind people. For me, you know, I mean, I found my way into being a Lukumi, you know Orisha [00:08:06] practitioner, right? You know, so, I'm initiated in an Afro-Cuban religion, you know, and that's, that's been my journey for, you know, getting towards being 20 years now, you know, but I think that it's really always interesting when people are looking [00:08:21] for that meaning and they find it somewhere else. How do you go about exploring that and connecting with that, in a way that is, you know, respectful, meaningful in a broader context, because it's . . . [00:08:36] I think that you know what people do in general, even if it's not respectful, might be meaningful to them personally, you know, but problematically culturally, right? But what do you think about . . . how you know, how, how would you recommend people approach this [00:08:51] kind of stuff if what you're talking about is something that they're drawn towards?  REBECCA: Yeah, I think that's such a good question and it's a sensitive one. You know, there's . . . I always notice that I feel fear and I feel nervousness when [00:09:06] talking about these things, because, unfortunately the way that people communicate online is very different than how they'll communicate in real life. [laughs] Discovered . . . I just taught a class, this is a great example, and I think will answer this question, on [00:09:21] the uses of fumatory plants worldwide to address cultural appropriation issues. ANDREW: Sure.  REBECCA: Because, specifically with white sage being overharvested, and a lot of indigenous Western folks saying, hey, can you guys slow your roll on this, you know? buying all this unsustainably [00:09:36] harvested sage? [laughs] ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: So, like, why do you feel the need to burn this plant specifically, when it's not part of your cultural lineage? And I don't think anyone at this point in the world is like, you can't do anything that's not from your specific ancestry, because I mean I have eight different ancestries. [00:09:52] You know? And it's . . .  ANDREW: Sure. REBECCA:  Most people do. And, and, and I think that's not what people are saying, and a lot of folks get defensive, and say, "Well, what, am I not allowed to do anything?" and it's like, "No, calm down. [laughs] No one's telling you that." And I think what you're doing when you're initiated in something . . . [00:10:07] Initiation is an invitation. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: If you are studying with a person from that, you know, Afro-Cuban lineage, who's saying, "You're welcome here, come into this space." That's very different than when someone says, you know, "I'm gonna self study [00:10:22] this thing, and then declare myself an expert and then make money off this thing . . ." ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And never study the cultures that this thing comes from. ANDREW: For sure.  REBECCA: Yeah, because what I do, I'm not technically Southern Appalachian, but I practice and teach Appalachian folk magic. And some people, I'm sure, would take issue with that. But [00:10:37] what do I do? I think it's all about how we how we raise up the cultures that we are benefiting from. How do we support them? How do we not try to speak for them and do the like white savior thing? And like, how do we invest [00:10:53] ourselves in the continuance and preservation and nurturance of the cultures that bring us such joy and meaning. And I include myself in that even though, technically, Appalachian folk culture is largely based on some things I have cultural access to. It's also based [00:11:08] in Cherokee and African traditions. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. For sure.  REBECCA: That have direct lineage too, that I need to respect and call attention to.  ANDREW: Yeah, and that's an interesting thing about a lot of those, you know, Appalachian, you know, root work, hoodoo [00:11:23], like a lot of those, sort of, you know, from there, heading further south, traditions are really such an interesting meld of, you know, of cultures, right? REBECCA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW:  You know, they're, they [00:11:38] involve stuff that came from Africa through the slaves. They involve stuff that came through the indigenous communities that were there alongside those people, you know, and then they have a mixed in, you know, depending on the region, [00:11:53] you know, European Christian or other folk traditions too, right? Like it's such a . . . it's such an interesting meld and I think that it's so helpful to really respect the fact that they come from a bunch of different places. They [00:12:08] come from all those lineages, you know?  REBECCA: Yeah. Mm-hmm. ANDREW: Yeah, because it's easy to, like, it's easy to be like, well, you know, this is just like this person's thing or this is that person's like . . . They're diverse and their strength [00:12:23] comes from that history, right?  REBECCA: It's true. It's true, and it's great talking to my friends who are hoodoo practitioners, and saying, you know, the first time I met my friend Demetrius, who I don't know if you know, from New Orleans at [00:12:38] Veridas Genii Symposium. We were kind of like doing a comparison like, what do you, do you do this, in hoodoo?  And he's like, well, do you do this in Appalachian folk magic? And it was just like, such overlap that we were like, of course, these things are so similar. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And it was wonderful and then we were like, "Let's sing a Scottish [00:12:53] ballad," you know, and like, because he does a lot of ballads. And then I'm like, let's, you know, he's like, "Do you want to learn this song in this West African language?" And I was like, "Oh heck, yeah." It was just, it was really cool, because it was like living that experience of seeing the lines . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: By sharing verbally [00:13:08] those things and song and in tradition and looking at different charms we were talking about. ANDREW: Mm-hmm.  REBECCA: And I loved that. It was really special and what you're saying, too, is, we tell stories about traditions being [00:13:23] all one thing and they're . . . One thing I learn as I get older--and I'm 31, I'm not terribly wise--but I notice things are always more complicated and beautifully complex than we think they are. ANDREW: Mm-mm. REBECCA: The're never black or white. It's just [00:13:38] complex. ANDREW: For sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think that one of the other things I want to circle back to, you know, is, you mentioned, you know, briefly about, like, sustainability and stuff like that. And I think that that is [00:13:53] also such an important part of the equation of what's, what we're talking about here too, right? Like, you know, if you're going to live in, you know, in connection with plants and connection with [00:14:08] the spirits of the, of a place or whatever, right? I think that, that that attention on making sure that it's sustainable, making sure that there's some left, you know, like . . . I mean, you know, in my tradition, we use a lot of plants and some [00:14:23] of them do grow up here. Some of them I grow myself inside. And you know, some of them are just not possible in the far far north where I practice, but you do what you can. But you know, one of the things that my elders always stress is, you know, you never [00:14:38] take it all. You always leave enough that it keeps going, right? You always want to make sure that whatever you're working with, that, you know, later on it'll have regrown or next season it will regrow or whatever, because there is this eye towards . . . [00:14:53] You know, this is, this is a thing forever, hopefully. And therefore we want to keep that going forever, you know?  REBECCA: Yeah. Mm-hmm. ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: Yeah, I teach foraging classes as my day job. [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah! REBECCA: That's what I do [00:15:08] for a living. And this year, I'm actually going to teach foraging at the University of North Carolina. ANDREW: Amazing. REBECCA: As a college course. I know, I feel so honored. It's one nice thing about having an Appalachian Studies Master's, is now I can teach at colleges and that's, you know, even though they pay terribly, it's very good. [ringing phone] ANDREW: [00:15:23] I'm sorry. Can we pause for one second here? I've no way to make the phone stop ringing. [whispers] Stupid phone! [laughs] It's . . . REBECCA: Also, I have to say . . .  ANDREW: What's that?  REBECCA: Your mustache is spectacular.  ANDREW: Thank you, thank you. REBECCA: It's like, that mustache is [00:15:39] on point.  ANDREW: I started it as a joke, like a year and a half ago. Somebody on the radio was saying like, mustaches are coming in. And I was like, I've never grown a mustache. I wonder if I can grow a mustache? And, and then, I started growing it and I posted to Facebook and [00:15:54] everyone was like, yes, keep it going, and now, I'm just like, all right. This is my, this is my life now, so. REBECCA: That's amazing. Mustache life!  ANDREW: Mustache life.  ANDREW: Mustache life. All right, I'm going to clap and then we can start again. [claps] All right. [00:16:09] You were talking about teaching at the university.  REBECCA: Yeah, I'm really excited to get to teach at UNCA. I'm teaching foraging, and you were speaking about sustainability, and there's a lot of interesting, confusing, [00:16:24] complex arguments about wildcrafting in the United States, especially. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And in Canada, and any place that is colonized indigenous land. And what, as settler folks, who are European ancestry, like what are our responsibilities to [00:16:39] be good wildcrafters. Some people say you shouldn't wildcraft at all, zero percent is sustainable. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: Others say, you can just take indiscriminately and do whatever you want. But obviously, I think the truth, there's no such thing as truth, [00:16:54] but I think a more balanced view is somewhere in between and something I've been really interested in and enjoying doing is: there's a lot of plants we call invasive and some of them radically alter their landscape, like one of my favorite plants, kudzu. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: Which [00:17:10] on Gordon White's podcast, I mentioned I like kudzu and you would not believe the angry humans on those comments. [laughs] ANDREW: I would, I would.  REBECCA: I did not say we should go plant kudzu. I did not say like throw its seeds everywhere. I just said I love kudzu. And that triggered [00:17:26] a lot of people. Because it's edible, it's medicinal, and I'm in recovery from alcoholism, and kudzu's root has some great compounds in it that specifically help with the cravings for alcohol. So it's one, spiritually very in line with my heart and my personal journey. So, [00:17:41] and it was used in Japan and China for that purpose for a long time. But it's just funny because I can harvest as much kudzu is I want, you know, and like, I'm not going to put a dent in it. [laughs] But, I mean, if I want to harvest as much bloodroot, a native [00:17:56] plant, as I want, I can destroy that plant population. ANDREW: Sure.  REBECCA: So, it's just so . . . And, like, to me, saying all or nothing is never the right answer because harvesting invasives is actually beneficial to the environment, because it frees up space for more native [00:18:11] plants.  ANDREW: Yeah. I love dandelion. REBECCA: Me too! ANDREW: And you know, there's another one, like there's just, you know, I could never get rid of it in my garden, even if I tried probably. So, the amount that I can [00:18:26] take of that is basically everything that's showing, any time I want, and it just, you know, give it two or three weeks and boom, they're back again with another crop. REBECCA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, so, yeah.  REBECCA: And those plants have followed us from Europe here and [00:18:41] from Asia and from all the different places that all the different people that live on this continent now come from and it's the story of the colonization of this continent is evident in our plant life. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And it marks the times that all the different people have come over here. And [00:18:56] all the different trading has occurred. You know, kudzu came over, I think, in the 30s and 40s for the World's Fair, as an erosion control plant and a crop for animals to eat, because it's very good for horses and cows and pigs and chickens and [00:19:11] [laughs] and people to eat, it's fine protein. So, I just think, you know, focusing on harvesting invasive plants and plants that are abundant is a great way to ask the question: Is this sustainable? And also know that you will never know the answer. ANDREW: Uh huh. REBECCA: A lot of: plant [00:19:26] world are like, "I know the truth!" And you're like, you do? That's . . . Okay. I see you're very confident in yourself. Because we're always finding new things out, and ecology is just like folk magic or any magic spiritual tradition, always changing.  ANDREW: For sure. And also, you [00:19:41] know, with climate change.  REBECCA: Oh, yes. ANDREW: Like, I think that that's another thing that comes into this where it's like, we might have an idea based on, you know, our experiences or our lifetime or you know, maybe even like our parents' or grandparents' lifetime, [00:19:56] but, things are changing a lot now. And you know, that's going to change what, what all these plants do it, you know, and and also, you know all these, you know, continuously there are new plants being introduced and shifting back and forth [00:20:11] and all that kind of stuff, right? So. It's such a dynamic system.  REBECCA: Dynamic is such a good word to describe it. And I think, you know, once again, it's so funny. Like I even feel fear saying like: Invasive plants. Harvest them. Because you know, it's like, it's tough. People have very strong opinions [00:20:26] about how plants are to be managed and a lot of very good and important hard questions come up around that. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: But the thing is, we do need to eat and heal ourselves from illness.  ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: Most of those things can [00:20:41] be done with a lot of the invasive plants. And that's not to say I never harvest native plants. Like I use poke a lot, which is a native plant, but most people think it's a noxious weed. They'll say, oh, that's a weed. ANDREW: Sure.  REBECCA: It's not, it's a native plant. It's, you know, it's just [00:20:56] funny that people are like oh, this horrible weed. And I'm like, what are you talking about? ANDREW: Well, it's true. It's like, you know, so a bunch of the plants that grow around here, that I use often in my religious practice, [00:21:11] you know, purslane, you know, stuff like that. You just find them growing out of the sidewalk, right? Like, in the city, it's, you know, you just, you go down the back lane way and you're like, oh look, you know, here's this one and that one [00:21:26] and you know, and they're just growing up between cracks in the cement and wherever, because those, those really hardy, you know, aggressive plants, you know, one, they have a lot of strength magically, you [00:21:41] know, in a general way, I think. But, but, two, they, you know, they're, they're everywhere and again, they're the kinds of things where it's like, you know, you don't take it all but also, even if you did, they're so resilient, like, people are [00:21:56] trying to get rid of them all the time and they cannot, you know, so yeah, it's very interesting. REBECCA: Yeah, and that's a great way too, to find places to forage. I talk to a lot of farmer friends and I'll say, you know, I love dandelion root . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: For its liver medicine. And it [00:22:11] definitely is, you know, is a plant I feel is aligned with the element of air, it's very good for spirit work and communication, but also not toxic so you can use it with impunity in some ways. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And call my friends and say, hey, do you mind if I bring my apprentices and our trowels out and we'll dig some dandelion [00:22:26] at your house. And they're always like, oh come on over. Or you call people in, you know, and they're like, oh, come on over. So we go to different farms and kind of weed them. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And then we go home with all the things that we want. It's a great symbiotic relationship. [laughs] ANDREW: For sure. Yeah, I have [00:22:41] raised beds in my, in my garden . . . REBECCA: Oh! ANDREW: And then the rest of it is this sort of crummy hard pack, you know, dirt that's . . . whatever was like, you know, when [00:22:56] they built it, they filled in because we're over a parking garage, right? And yeah, it's, all the stuff that grows there is all wonderful energetically. And you know, dandelion, and plantain, and you know, like all that kind of stuff. It's like we [00:23:11] would just go out in the yard and my kids are like, you know, they go ahead and pick a bunch and come back and make salad out of it and all that kind of stuff, you know, because it's there, and it's useful if you know what you're looking at, right?  REBECCA: Kids are so good at learning plants. I teach a lot of children. People bring their kids on our foraging tours [00:23:26] and they always, at the end of the tour, can recite every plant we met. And the parents are like, oh, what was that one? And the kids are like, you know, it's bitter, hairy bittercress and I'm like, oh good job. [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah.  REBECCA: They know everything. And they'll remember all the uses. They're so good. ANDREW: That's amazing. [00:23:41] So, I'm curious, because you've mentioned this a couple times now. Is the sort of, you said, I'm afraid to talk about this. I'm afraid to talk about that.  REBECCA: Yeah! [laughs] ANDREW: What . . . [00:23:56] tell me about the reservation. Like . . . REBECCA: Yeah! ANDREW: What, what is it that you run into around that? REBECCA: Well, I think a lot of it come up recently for me with my fumatory herbs class. I got a lot of really mean aggressive and [00:24:11] I would even say violent communications around me daring to suggest to folks of non-North American indigenous ancestry that maybe they shouldn't burn white sage with impunity. And I [00:24:26] think, I tried to say this compassionately and patiently as I could, I tried not to use attacking language. I called my, you know, my own self and my own shortcomings into the conversation, because I make mistakes constantly. I don't know the right answers. I'm just guessing. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: I'm just trying, you know? [00:24:41]  ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: And I . . . the venom with which strangers will write to me is horrific, and it's funny because, you see this over and over again, on Internet communications. Because when I taught my class in person, I was terrified that people would yell at me . . . [00:24:56] ANDREW: Sure. REBECCA: There would be fighting in the class. Like I was afraid it would be really bad. I had probably 40 people show up to this class. It was incredible. People were compassionate and patient. Nobody got a millimetre out of line. ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: And [00:25:11] just like, I thought that was the case, but I'm so glad to see this is true. And everybody was just building together. Asking questions. Even if someone didn't understand something, no one was like well, you're an idiot for not understanding this complicated concept. [00:25:26] And I just appreciated how kind people were to each other and I see that that's the case. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: You know but online when you're anonymous . . .  ANDREW: Definitely. Yeah. REBECCA: And that's where it comes from for me because I just see other herbalists and I'm [00:25:41] often holding myself back in my work, I think, because I'm terrified to make mistakes and hurt people. But it also prevents me from sharing more information, or you know, providing access to education to more folks that want it. ANDREW: Yeah. I totally get that. You know?  REBECCA: You feel [00:25:56] that way? ANDREW: I . . . last fall, I had made an Orisha Tarot deck with . . . that got published through Llewellyn. And so, it's basically everywhere. And--which [00:26:11] is great--and the amount of apprehension I had about being an outsider, about, you know, even, even with the blessings of my ancestors, or like, my elders, my ancestors, the spirits through divination, like, even with [00:26:26] all those things, there's just like "ohhh, man," like waiting for that, that, you know, potential thing, right? And sometimes you get it and sometimes you don't, right? And definitely online is a place where it's way more likely, because online people [00:26:42] . . . Be kind, people, just be kind! I'm sure nobody listening to this podcast is mean online. REBECCA: [chuckles] ANDREW: But, yeah, but, but, that apprehension, right? And then also that realization, now that it's out there, that how much people [00:26:57] are benefiting from it, you know, and how much people are, you know, telling me how grateful they are that I made this offering, you know, to the world and whatever. And I think that it's such a delicate line . . . REBECCA: Yeah.  ANDREW: For, for us, [00:27:12] for people doing work, for people offering teaching, you know, and that, there's so many people out there who are just like, "Rah, rah, rah, do your thing, screw everybody, give no fucks, whatever" and I'm always like, that's horrible. Like, let's not be like [00:27:27] that! That's not useful. REBECCA: [laughs] Yeah! ANDREW: But then also there's like so many people doing good work like, you know, what you're up to, where it's, there's also that like, "Oh, should I? How's it going to go? What's gonna happen? I don't know," you know? REBECCA: Yeah. ANDREW: And, [00:27:42] and, and it's real, you know, that tension is really real. And I think that so many people experience it around their work and stuff. You know, how do you find your way through it?  REBECCA: I think a lot of it is, I try to use, [00:27:57] like I am an incredibly privileged person. You know? ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: I'm a large able-bodied white tall physically able person, who can appear heterosexual in certain situations. [laughs] And I . . . And [00:28:12] feminine, you know, and it's . . . So I can use those things to leverage messages and voices that are erased and largely unheard in my friends' communities, especially my indigenous friends. And I do a lot of work with [00:28:27] with the Catawba Indian nation. And the . . . I'm hoping to do some more with the Cherokee Nation around ethnobotany. And reestablishing control over the knowledge of foraging to the people who taught it to my ancestors here. [00:28:42]  And I think it's kind of crazy that me, as a European-ancestored-person, am going and teaching indigenous people how to forage, because their own knowledge was erased from them, through genocide. And it's, to me, like acknowledging those things, and like [00:28:57] when we come together as people in the real world and real life, together, me and my friends and those nations, we can create pretty amazing things. And we talk about really hard, uncomfortable, scary stuff and it's tough. You know? It's hard. It brings up a lot for both of us. But [00:29:12] instead of allowing it to paralyze us and prevent us, we're like, what can we build from the space? Like, where do we go forward? Let's acknowledge these things, talk about the hard stuff, the history, the harm caused by my ancestors, and let's [00:29:27] build something new from that. You know? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And I think that's really tough. It's because we don't know what to do. None of us really know. And for me, like constantly giving word, voice, accolade, and when I have extra resources, [00:29:42] putting my resources towards the people whose land this was and is, still. That to me is what I can do. And I know that's not what everyone would say is the best way but for me, I know, I don't . . . Unfortunately, being [00:29:57] a Appalachian folk magical practitioner is definitely not a great way to make a lot of money . . . BOTH: [laughing] REBECCA: I don't have a ton of resources and I have a lot of debt. ANDREW: Uh-huh.  REBECCA: But I have a lot of non-monetary resources, like access to academic information. [00:30:12] So I do a lot of research for my friends who don't have access to journals. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And I give them, you know, my university, don't tell my university I give them my login.  ANDREW: Nobody from university is listening, it's fine.  REBECCA: I know. They're not. Don't worry. But just finding ways to constantly figure [00:30:27] out like, okay, who am I speaking for? How can I help make space for others to speak and how can I make my resources available to them that are most helpful? And not what I think is most helpful, but what they need.  ANDREW: Yeah. I think that part about asking [00:30:42] people what they need? I mean, I think it's such a such a piece that gets overlooked so often in any kind of restorative approach.  REBECCA: Yes! ANDREW: Right?  REBECCA: Restorative, yeah.  ANDREW: That, like, say you're sorry, like whatever [00:30:57] it was, personal thing, you know, a generational thing or whatever, say, "Hey, I'm really sorry this happened, and then ask, like, "Is there something you need? Is there something that, that you think that I might be able to do that you need?" And then you can really [00:31:12] see where the conversation goes, right? Because I find so often people make these apologies or, you know, like, you know, I mean, again, maybe I'm being judgmental about people who are raging against you about using white [00:31:27] sage online, but I'm like, listen, just start with an apology, or just start with saying, "Huh. Well, what could I do instead. What might make sense?" You know? And maybe, maybe there are people, and probably there are people, who a hundred percent like have a deep deep connection [00:31:42] to that plant? Or, you know, like the white sage plant. Or there are lots of ways in which you can procure stuff sustainably, if you want to. REBECCA: Yeah. ANDREW: Like, you know. I got some stuff here. There's a new farmer in [00:31:57] Ontario who started growing stuff. You know, he got laid off from his job and he started expanding what he was already farming for himself, and it's great. You know, it's local, it's organic. It's . . . You know, it's sustainably harvested because [00:32:12] he's farming it himself, right? You know, it's great.  REBECCA: Yeah. ANDREW: Right? So like there's lots of options but being mad about it. That's not, like, that doesn't help anybody and . . .  REBECCA: Yeah, they don't like being told they can't do something. People are mad at me for saying . . . And I didn't say that. I said, "Hey, [00:32:27] maybe listen to indigenous people."  ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: And too, look at how this plant is now entering threatened status. And like, these are two things that are very important for different reasons.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and I think too, you know, I mean, it's [00:32:42] always something that's very interesting to me, because my approach to working with plants, outside of my traditional stuff, which I learned from my elders, is I go for walks in the ravine, you know, or in the the forest in the valley here or [00:32:57] even in the lane ways. And, when I find a plant, like something'll grab my attention. And I'll be like, "Huh? What are you? What's going on?" And I'll just sit down and hang out with it for a while.  REBECCA: Yeah. ANDREW: And, you [00:33:12] know, none of those plants are mad. I've yet to find an angry plant. You know? I mean, like, that kind of like, conflicty energy, you know. Even, even plants that are in competition with each [00:33:27] other or whatever, I never have that feeling from them, that they have that aggressiveness, you know? And I think that it's an interesting thing to sort of ask yourself when you're working with plants. Like, what is the energy of this plant, [00:33:42] and how am I aligned with it? And how are my feelings aligned with it? And what's going on from there? You know? I don't know, does that make any sense to you? REBECCA: Oh, definitely. And I think . . . I totally agree with you. And I was talking to a friend the other day and he's like, "How do we separate [00:33:57] the spiritual from the political?" And I was like, "I don't think we can, and I don't think we should, at this point, but I think I see why people want to." They say, "Oh, can we just leave politics out of it?"  ANDREW: Sure.  REBECCA: Like well, that would be great. But unfortunately, with [00:34:12] the way things are, we can't. And it's . . . there's, you know, a lot of Internet explosions around things like that. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: Because people are like, "Well, you, don't bring up politics at this event." And it's like, well, you can't talk about plants or harvesting [00:34:27] or medicine and magic and not talk about the people it's come from, how we know about it.  ANDREW: Yeah.  REBECCA: And the story of how we got to this point. And it's . . . We need to do better as you know, as a community, especially, you know, in the white herbal world and [00:34:42] white practitioners need to do better about being open to like, talking about hard stuff and realizing it doesn't mean they have to fling themselves off a cliff. [laughs] You know? ANDREW: For sure, right? Yeah. REBECCA: You know, sometimes people think that's what people are asking of them, and it's like no one is asking you to fling yourself off a cliff. Maybe some people are, but you [00:34:57] don't have to do that. And it's just about being able to say like, whoa, what's the real story of how I got this information?  ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: And you know, the real story of when I harvest poke, I know what poke's medicinal uses are because indigenous and African [00:35:12] folks told my ancestors those things. So I need to, every time I work with that plant, I think about that. And I don't think about it in a negative or combative way. I think, like you're saying, I think about it in a, like, thank you, gratitude.  ANDREW: Yeah.  REBECCA: A building.  ANDREW: [00:35:27] Yeah. I don't think we can ever separate. . . I mean, yeah, I don't think we can really ever separate or ought to, as you say, at this time, separate politics from our spirituality. You know, I think that that that makes no sense at all [00:35:42] to me and even historically, you know . . . REBECCA: Yeah. [laughs]  ANDREW: You know, you look at a lot of, like the the stories of the Orishas going back, you know? So many of them demarcate political shifts in power and other kinds of things that [00:35:57] are, that are historical, you know? This group came in. They took over this, this region. They deposed the kind of person who was in charge. And the spirit that that person, you know, was most aligned with got a new story, where they [00:36:12] got demoted somehow because of something, right? Or what have you, you know? There's a lot of that. And, it's why, when I wrote the book that goes to my deck, I included the politics, a bunch of politics, all through it and even a chapter in the front that's . . . The, the header is like, why are there [00:36:27] politics in this book? And you know, and it's like, there's a few pages on like why, why I wanted to, you know, really make sure I was engaging in honoring some of that political content because it's true of the religion, it's true of [00:36:42] the world, and it's true for people who are living in the world and using these tools or these plants or whatever. We're all running into politics all the time, you know? And so I thought the idea that we could free ourselves from that somehow is, I [00:36:58] don't know, reminds me very much of like the Golden Dawn notion of like . . . REBECCA: [laughs] ANDREW: We'll get back to like the one true history behind all of the movement of the last, you know, thousands of years since Egypt and we'll, you know, access pure spiritual being or whatever. It's like no. That [00:37:13] doesn't exist. You know? REBECCA: I think you're so right. That was really well said and I totally agree. And I . . . it's . . . to me, I don't want to shame the, like when I hang out with a lot of hippies in Asheville and they're like, we're one human family. I'm like, we are, you're right and it's . . . it's great. [00:37:28] We're all humans. We have these shared human experiences. But within that human experience, my experience is very different than my friend who's, you know, Latinx or a person of color or disabled or a differently [00:37:43] abled or you know, blind or deaf or like anybody that experiences the world and and the, unfortunately, the baggage that the world puts upon them, in our culture . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: The different reasons and the different oppressions that people experience. [00:37:58] I don't understand the . . . Like, for me it's difficult to understand when people are like, let's just pretend that things don't exist, because it's hard! ANDREW: Sure. REBECCA: To deal with and it's hard when you don't experience a lot of those things, to be compassionate enough to say, what would it be like? What . . . How can I put [00:38:13] myself in that person's shoes? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And be compassionate to them, and be like, wow, you have had it way more difficult than me. And that doesn't mean that once again, I need to jump off a cliff, but it means I need to be aware of how I move through the world and who I'm stepping [00:38:28] on, who I'm profiting off of . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And who I'm supporting in the way that they would like to be supported, not the way I think they should be supported. ANDREW: For sure. REBECCA: And like you said, I don't . . . I always tell my students, I'm like, I don't know the answers. I have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm just . . . [laughs] I [00:38:43] do have some idea. But I'm guessing and I'm list-, trying to listen to my friends, and what their needs actually are, and I make mistakes. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And I have to be sorry, like you said, and then ask, what do you, what word did you use, recon-, not [00:38:58] reconstructed, but re- . . . You used a great word to kind of describe that asking somebody, what can I do? What do you need from me? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: To- . . . true apology. ANDREW: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I can't remember right now, but you can rewind and listen to it later. [laughs]  REBECCA: [00:39:13] Well, that word, you know . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And that concept of . . . That to me is so integral in our in our work, especially with plants. It's so complicated. And like I said, many people will either say, "Right on," you know, or say "Wow, [00:39:28] she's a crazy communist," you know, or "Wow, she's actually horrible and she shouldn't harvest any plans at all." And I know, at some point, I want everyone to like me . . . [laughs] You know, I want everyone .  . . I'm a very people-pleasing person, being socialized female growing up, you [00:39:43] know, I always want to make everyone happy and feel safe. Also quadruple Cancer here. ANDREW: Wow, that's a lot of Cancer. It's a lot of Cancer. The struggle is real, eh? REBECCA: A real struggle but, I've got a lot of fire too. So it's hard to find out . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: What to truly do about that. [00:39:58] But I think what you've said, like, and the way you handled it in your book . . . There . . . People will be mad at us, no matter what we do in life and dislike us and that's okay.  ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: Looking for places who are causing real harm. That's to me more important than dealing with people who are on the Internet screaming. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: Real [00:40:13] purpose. [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, people can, people can do whatever they want on the Internet. It's fine. It's the Internet. I mean, it'd be great if people were kinder, but well, it's the Internet. So. [laughs] So that's the modern monster we've created right? Now, it's [00:40:28] funny, I've been . . . So, I guess, I have a question for you and then we will wrap up because you know, we've been on the phone for a while here, which has been super fun and we could probably talk for a long time. But so, my [00:40:43] question is: If you were to pick a plant or maybe a couple plants, that you think their energy harmonizes with kind of what we've been talking about here. What, what plant would that be, for you, for somebody [00:40:58] to get to know, you know, on an energetic level or whatever level makes sense, you know?  REBECCA: Yeah, that's such a good question. I think, for me, one of my most patron plants is mugwort, Artemisia vulgaris. ANDREW: Uh huh. REBECCA: And [00:41:13] it-- [laughs] Most gardeners in my town will be like, I hate mugwort, because it has running rootless, and it goes all over the place . . . ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: And it's a weed. But mugwort has been used historically all over the world as a banishing herb. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: The way that [00:41:28] many like new age folks use white sage now, which is not really its intended purpose, is what I've been told . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: By different folks and you can read a lot more about that by actual indigenous people online. If you want to look up the original uses [00:41:43] of white sage, I'd encourage you to do that. But mugwort, whether burned or even just hung up as a bundle, was used to keep away evil, to cleanse things, to remove disease-causing spirits, and in Asia, as well as North America and Europe, [00:41:58] and now it's naturalized. It's not native. It's naturalized all over the United States in lots of different species. And they're fragrant. They're edible, medicinal, important plants and I invite you to meet mugwort. And especially if [00:42:13] you have German ancestry, it was one of most important fumic plants of the German folks, which my last name means "from Bavaria." So, as you can imagine, that's some of the stuff I focus on in my work, but I invite people that to meet mugwort, because when you harvest it, you're weeding [00:42:28] out an invasive plant, you can make all types of food and medicine, and I have a post on my blog about the history of its magical uses, if people are curious with it.  ANDREW: We'll include a link in the show notes, for sure. That's awesome. Yeah, mugwort's [00:42:43] a really great one. You know, it's funny. It's amusing. I don't know. I don't even know what the right word is. I'm always surprised at how hard a sell it is to people sometimes? When other things are just such an [00:42:58] easy sell, right?  REBECCA: Yeah. ANDREW: But, but now I'm just going to be like, you know, look, Rebecca says you should use this one. I'll there put a little sign above the . . . You know, your face, saying, "Get this one!" right where we sell it in the shop. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, [00:43:13] the one that I leaned on a lot through, through that kind of like journeys with this stuff was, was actually was dandelion. REBECCA: Hmm. ANDREW: You know, it's a sort of like, you know, partly because of its notion of like, that deep [00:43:28] taproot as sort of staying deeply grounded in my own practice and being really really like grounded in what I do. Partly, you know, because of, like even though people see it as a weed, the beauty of its flower, right? That sort of like [00:43:43] offering of a radiance to the world throughout what I'm trying to do with my work, and also because it's, you know, often used for like detoxifying and stuff like that, that sort of like inner cleanse. It's like, I've got to root out this stuff, that's conditioning and [00:43:58] cultural baggage and other things, so that I can be more authentic to myself and what I need to be doing, you know? So that was definitely one that I leaned down a lot. You know, last year, especially through the summer time, [00:44:13] whenever I was like, feeling, feeling that worry about what was going to happen when the thing came out. I was like, all right, let's go out in the garden, dig up some dandelions, make some tea, or like hang out with them, or put a put a bunch of them on the table for a while or whatever, you know, so. [00:44:28]  REBECCA: Yeah. ANDREW: Yeah, for sure.   REBECCA: That's amazing. I love that. Thanks for sharing that with me.  ANDREW: Yeah! So, for people who want to check out what you're up to, and people should definitely check out what you're up to. Where do they find you? Where . . . [00:44:43] what are you up to, where are you hanging out online right now? REBECCA: Where do I lurk? Well, I have a website and an Instagram account called Blood and Spicebush. And my website is BloodandSpicebush.com. Spicebush is one of my favorite native plants and a blood cleanser, [00:44:58] hence the name of my website! And I also run a small folk herbalism school with my friend Abby Artemisia, called Sassafras School. And you can find us at Sassafras-School.com. And we have a few more spaces left in our yearlong [00:45:13] program on folk medicine and wild foods, as we're both female botanists and foragers and medicinal practitioners. So, we're excited to share that, because there's lots of amazing clinical herb programs, but we've seen there wasn't really any folk [00:45:28] program. So we decided to give it a go and see how that goes. ANDREW: Nice. That's awesome. Amazing. And you're going to be in Hamilton this summer, for folks who are local to the shop. So, you know, we'll put a link in for where you can find that as well in the notes, [00:45:43] but, Rebecca's going to be up in up in our part of the world a little bit where the shop is, so.  REBECCA: End of June. Yeah. ANDREW: End of June, yeah. Well, thank you so much for being on. It's been a wonderful chatting with you. Thank you. REBECCA: It was a pleasure. Thank you. 

Episode Transcript: My name is Tanya Marsh and you’re listening to Death, et seq. We’ve been talking about funerals a lot on this podcast so far, and I wanted to switch gears this week and talk about one of my favorite topics – cemeteries. I love cemeteries. As my friends and family will attest, I am a semi-professional cemetery tourist. When I visit a new place, I want to check out the historic cemeteries. When I visit a place that I’ve been dozens of times, I still want to check out the cemeteries. So in a new series that I’m going to call “Cemetery Tourism,” I’ll be looking at different clusters of cemeteries that share similar characteristics or a similar history. I’m going to start the series in the Northeastern United States, in two of our earliest urban centers — New York City and Boston. Both of these cities were founded in the mid-1600s, and their early cemeteries share some common characteristics, but they also differed in important ways because of the people who founded those two cities. American cemeteries are different from cemeteries anywhere else in the world, for a couple of reasons. In the colonial era, we were obviously heavily influenced by the law of England and the social norms that had been established there and carried here. The England of the 17th century had an established church – the Church of England. The theology of the Church of England placed great importance on burial in consecrated ground. So the law of England reflected the assumption that all people in good standing with the church and entitled to burial within the church would be buried in their local parish churchyard. There were people that weren’t in good standing, or members of other religions, so allowances had to be made for them too, but the vast majority of people were buried in the local parish churchyard owned by the Church of England. That’s just how it was set up. But colonial America was a fairly diverse place. For example, Puritan colonists from England of course settled Massachusetts Bay Colony, while a more diverse group of English, Dutch, and German immigrants settled the former New Amsterdam, there were all kinds of ethnic groups and faiths on William Penn’s land, and the English Virginia Company established settlements focused on economics rather than religious liberty. Each of the colonies was different from the English system, but they were also each different from each other. These realities forced Americans to innovate. Massachusetts established (and still retains) a law that each town must create a burying ground for the use of residents and strangers. Unlike the English system, these are secular cemeteries, owned and managed by the government. In the densely populated cities like New York, Boston, and Philadelphia, cemeteries were established downtown and despite practices designed to maximize the capacity of cemeteries, soon became overcrowded. In the Chesapeake, where the population was more widely dispersed, family burying grounds were established in addition to more traditional churchyards. Although the location of American burials differed from the uniform English precedent, other aspects of the process were the same during colonial times. Remains were wrapped in a shroud or encased in a wood coffin, then placed in the earth, a family tomb, or a mausoleum. Americans originally followed other European Christian customs—most graves were not individually memorialized and many contained the remains of more than one person. American disposition practices shifted after the Civil War. Embalming was rarely practiced before the war. During the war, a crude method of embalming was used to stabilize the remains of wealthier men, primarily on the Union side, so they could be sent home for burial. After the Civil War, undertakers trained in embalming evolved into funeral directors. Into the twentieth century, death moved from the home to the hospital; and the ceremonies surrounding death moved from the parlor to the funeral parlor. Undertaking had once been a complementary profession for carpenters—they could build the coffin and transport the remains to the cemetery. But the Industrial Revolution moved casket production from small workshops to factories, particularly after World War II. “Modern business principles” were applied to create modern cemeteries, owned by for-profit companies in many states, larger in scale and designed to minimize the costs of maintenance. These companies benefited from laws that gave great deference to cemetery owners—traditionally families, religious organizations and municipalities—to establish their own rules and regulations. Modern cemeteries adopted rules that required concrete and/or steel vaults or grave liners that would encase the coffin and prevent the uneven terrain that follows grave collapse. These companies also adopted rules that limited graves to a single interment. The cumulative effect is a very different set of practices than existed before the Civil War. Nearly all modern graves in the United States are dedicated in perpetuity to the remains of a single individual, memorialized with a tombstone. On today’s episode, I’ll talk about the history and development of cemeteries in New York City and Boston. If you’re interested in photographs and maps, be sure to check out the show notes at the podcast’s website – www.deathetseq.com. The Dutch first settled New Amsterdam, then just the southern tip of Manhattan, in 1624. A detailed city map called the Castello Plan was created in 1660 – it shows virtually every structure that existed in New Amsterdam at that time. In 1664, four English frigates sailed into New Amsterdam’s harbor and demanded the surrender of New Netherlands. Articles of Capitulation were signed that September and in 1665, New Amsterdam was reincorporated under English law as New York City. The settlement was named for the Duke of York, the brother of the English King Charles II who later became King James II. During most of the 17th century, even after the English took over, the Reformed Dutch Church was the dominant religious authority in New Amsterdam/New York. There were scattered Congregational, Presbyterian and Lutheran churches in the region, as well as Quakers, Catholics, and a few Jews. With the English in 1665, however, also came the established Church of England. One of the first significant cemeteries in New York City was established in the 1630s on the west side of Broadway, a little north of Morris Street. It was referred to as the “Old Graveyard” In 1656, there was a petition to “divide the Old Graveyard which is wholly in ruins, into lots to be built upon, and to make another Graveyard south of the Fort.” Apparently it persisted until at least 1665, when a collection was made to repair the graveyard because it was “very open and unfenced, so that the hogs root in the same.” By 1677, however, the graveyard had been cut up into four building lots and sold at auction to the highest bidder. There is no record regarding where the graves from this “Old Graveyard” were moved, but construction on the site more than a century later uncovered “a great many skulls and other relics of humanity,” so it sounds like perhaps they weren’t moved at all. Some things in Poltergeist are real, people. In 1662, the Dutch established a new burial ground on Broadway, on a parcel that was then located outside the city’s gates. That burial ground became a part of the Trinity churchyard when Trinity Church was established in thirty years later. In 1693, the New York Assembly passed an act to build several Episcopal churches in New York City and “all the inhabitants were compelled to support the Church of England, whatever might be their religious opinion.” In 1696, a plot of land stretching 310 feet from Rector Street to the Dutch burial ground that had been established on Broadway in 1662 was acquired by the Episcopalians and the Charter of Trinity Church was issued on May 6, 1697. The charter declared: “[Trinity Church] situate in and near the street called the Broadway, within our said city of New York, and the ground thereunto adjoining, enclosed and used for a cemetery or church-yard, shall be the parish church, and church-yard of the parish of Trinity Church … and the same is hereby declared to be forever separated and dedicated to the service of God, and to be applied thereunto for the use and behalf of the inhabitants … within our said city of New York, in communion with our said Protestant Church of England.” By the time of the Revolution, the churchyard at Trinity, including the old portion that had been the Dutch burial ground, was said to contain 160,000 graves. In 1847 a proposal to extend Albany Street to connect it with Pine Street would have disturbed the northern portion of the Trinity Church churchyard, part of the 1662 Dutch burial ground. A government report advocated against the extension: “[The burial ground] was established by the Dutch on their first settlement... It is nearly a century older than the other sections of the yard. It was originally a valley, about thirty feet lower at its extreme depth than the present surface, and has undergone successive fillings, as the density of interments rendered it necessary, to raise the land until it reached the present surface: so that the earth now, to a depth of several feet below the original, and thence to the present time of interment, is in truth filled with human remains, or rather composed of human ashes. The bodies buried there were [approximately 30,000 to 40,000] persons of several generations, and of all ages, sects and conditions, including a large number of the officers and soldiers of the Revolutionary War, who died whilst in British captivity; and almost every old family that is or ever was in this city, has friends or connections lying there.” In an 1892 guidebook to New York City, Moses King wrote: "Only the established and powerful corporations of Trinity and a few other churches have been able to resist the demands of modern life and business for the ground once sacred to the dead. Hundreds of acres [in Manhattan], now covered by huge buildings or converted into public thoroughfares, were at some time burial-places; over ninety of which have been thus existed, and passed away. Of most of them even the location has been forgotten…” Trinity Churchyard still resides on Broadway at Rector Street, in lower Manhattan, two blocks from Federal Hall, the building where George Washington was sworn in, the “room where it happened” in the very early days of the Republic, and the New York Stock Exchange. The Anglican St. Paul’s Chapel, established on Broadway between Fulton and Vesey Streets around 1766, and its surrounding churchyard still remains in the shadow of the World Trade Center. Many of the other cemeteries that once resided in lower Manhattan are relics of memory. For example: • The Middle Dutch Church, on the east side of Nassau Street between Cedar and Liberty Streets, was surrounded by a burial ground beginning in 1729. The bodies were removed sometime after 1844. The North Dutch Church on William Street between Fulton and Ann Streets had an adjacent burial ground from 1769 to 1875. • The French burial ground on the northeast corner of Nassau and Pine Streets, extending north to Cedar Street (1704-1830); • The Presbyterian churchyard on the north side of Wall Street opposite the end of New Street (1717-1844); • The Old Brick Presbyterian Church graveyard on Beekman Street between Chatham and Nassau Streets (1768-1856); • The cemetery located at Pearl, Duane, and Rose Streets which was leased from the city as early as 1765 but not used as a cemetery until after the Revolution; and • A Lutheran Church and adjacent burial ground on south Pearl Street, a site which had become a vegetable market by 1706. A cemetery on the south side of Houston Street between Eldridge and Stanton Street was used from 1796 to 1851 as the Reformed Dutch Church Cemetery, to provide excess capacity for the crowded churchyards. The bodies were disinterred and removed around 1874. Meanwhile, Puritan colonists from England founded Boston in 1630. Unlike the religious and ethnic diversity that could be found in New Amsterdam/New York City during this time period, the Puritan leaders of Boston punished religious dissenters. Baptist minister Obadiah Holmes was publicly whipped in 1651 and Mary Dyer was hanged in Boston Common in 1660 for repeatedly defying a law banning Quaker from being in Massachusetts Bay Colony. However, prosperity in Boston led to the development of a more diverse community that included Catholics and Quakers and other groups that were initially persecuted by the Puritans. Eventually the Puritans began to accept that they could not have a unified church and state. Puritan burying grounds were often located adjacent to the town’s meeting house. Headstones were expensive and many of the earliest were imported from England. Most often, early burials were marked with wood markers or primitive stones, if they were marked at all. The Puritan burying ground was a utilitarian space simply used to bury the dead. Puritans did not visit graves or maintain them. They were often very disorganized. Graves were tightly clustered and gravestones were often broken or buried as the cemetery became more populated. In many cases, graves were dug deep enough to accommodate 12 or more coffins placed on top of each other to within five feet of the surface. Recall that in the 1650s, there was a petition to remove the Old Graveyard in New Amsterdam because hogs were rooting around. In Boston, the early burying grounds were used as communal space to graze cattle. The oldest burying ground in Boston is King’s Chapel which is not, as the name suggests, the churchyard for the adjacent King’s Chapel. What was originally simply known as the “Burying Ground” was established in 1630 and was Boston’s only cemetery for 30 years. King’s Chapel is quite small, less than half an acre. It was used as a burial ground for 200 years, but estimates are that there are only about 1,500 burials. There are only 615 gravestones and 29 tabletop tomb markers remaining. Most graves include about four burials on top of one another. Excess remains were excavated and the bones were deposited in the charnel house that can still be seen on the edge of the burying ground. A charnel house would be a very familiar idea for the English colonists because English churchyards were similarly overcrowded. When the cemetery authorities ran out of ground for fresh burials, older burials were simply dug up and the bones were placed in a communal pit in the consecrated ground, or catacombs beneath the church. If you’ve visited any European churches, you’re probably familiar with this idea. Although the idea of the charnel house was a feature of English churchyards, King’s Chapel Burying Ground was not a churchyard. It was a community burial ground and included people of all faiths, not just Puritans. It was more like a municipal, secular cemetery than a churchyard. In all of the Boston burying grounds, it was common to have a headstone, highly decorated with the name and sometimes the biography of the deceased, and a footstone with only the name of the deceased. Graves were placed so that the feet of the deceased faced east. This was believed to have been done so that when Christ returns, the dead can simply stand up and walk to Jerusalem. King’s Chapel also includes 29 underground tombs which consist of a burial room made of brick and covered with earth and grass. These are marked with box structures, but the boxes are just markers, not the tombs themselves. When the tombs needed to be opened, the box was removed and the entrance dug up. In the early 1700s, 24 tombs were built along the back fence and in 1738, 23 tombs were built along Tremont Street. These are actually underneath the present-day sidewalk of Tremont Street and their markets and entrances are inside the fence. King’s Chapel Burying Ground also includes a curious structure that looks like the top of a tomb or pit. That’s actually a subway fresh air ventilator shaft that was constructed in 1896. Human remains in that portion of the burying ground were relocated during the construction. It is called King’s Chapel Burying Ground today because in 1686, Governor Edmund Andros wanted to build an Anglican church in Puritan Boston. This was an unpopular idea, so no one would sell him any land. So Andros built his church in part of the existing Burying Ground, right over existing graves. As you can imagine, this didn’t make Andros any more popular with the Puritans of Boston. After King’s Chapel was consecrated, people began referring to the adjacent cemetery as King’s Chapel Burying Ground, which also couldn’t have made the Puritans very happy. In 1660, King’s Chapel was ordered closed “for some convenient season” and new burials directed to the second burying ground. Of course tombs were installed decades later and grave burials in King’s Chapel Burying Ground weren’t outlawed until 1826, although they continued until 1896. The second burial ground in Boston was established in 1659 when the Selectment of Boston purchased ½ acre in the northern end of town. Originally called the North Burying Place or the North Burying Ground, the parcel was expanded in 1711 and 1809. It is now known as Copp’s Hill Burying Ground and is located just down the street from the Old North Church. The City of Boston has counted 2,230 grave markers and 228 tombs in Copp’s Hill but the exact number of burials is unknown. Estimates range from 8,000 to 10,000. This includes an estimate of over 1,000 unmarked graves of African and African American slaves. The third burying ground in Boston is located just down Tremont Street from King’s Chapel. Also established in 1660, the Old Granary Burying Ground is the final resting place of many important figures from the Revolutionary War including Paul Revere, John Hancock, Samuel Adams, and the men killed in the Boston Massacre. Benjamin Franklin’s parents are also buried here. Granary is located on 2 acres and contains 2,345 gravestones. In 1922, it was estimated that there were 8,030 burials over its 260 year history. Originally, Granary Burying Ground was part of the Boston Common, which then extended up Tremont Street. It was originally called the South Burying Ground, then renamed the Middle Burying Ground when one was established further south. It was finally renamed Granary Burying Ground because of the 12,000 bushel grain storage building built in 1737 to provide food for the poor and called the granary. The granary was moved to Dorchester in 1809 to make room for Park Street Church. The final colonial burial ground that I’ll mention is the Central Burying Ground, which was established in 1754 on 1.4 acres at the corner of Boston Common on Boylston Street between Charles and Tremont Streets. There are only about 487 markers remaining, but records indicate that approximately 5,000 people are buried in Central Burying Ground, including many unmarked graves of paupers from the Alms House and inmates from the House of Industry. There are some unique tombs visible in Central Burying Ground because they are surrounded by a “moat” on both sides. The first tomb is thought to have been built in 1771. 149 tombs were built on the four sides of the burying ground and nearly half of the burials were in the tombs. But in 1836, Boylston Street was widened and 69 tombs were destroyed – the owners moved the remains either to the 60 tombs in the Dell or to the then-new Mount Auburn Cemetery in Cambridge. In 1895, the subway was being constructed along Boylston Street disturbing the remains of approximately 2,000 people. They were reburied in a mass grave in the northeast corner of Central Burying Ground. The last grave burial took placed in 1856, but tomb burials continued until the 1950s. Until 1810, Central Burying Ground was called South Burying Ground, which is when Granary was renamed. Identifying burying grounds by their relative location to one another is clearly a bad strategy, as the constant re-naming of cemeteries in Boston demonstrates. So I’ve described the first four cemeteries in Boston and the most famous cemetery in colonial New York – Trinity. The four colonial cemeteries in Boston were all owned by the government and non-sectarian, even though their practices resembled those of churchyards in England. New York, on the other hand, was dominated by churchyards in colonial days and the early days of the Republic. The challenges that these cemeteries faced in the beginning of the 1800s was similar in both cities, but the way that the cemeteries were changed as a result was very different. All four cemeteries I described are still in the heart of downtown Boston. In lower Manhattan, only Trinity and St. Paul’s Chapel remain. The backlash against the colonial cemeteries was triggered by their overuse and their general lack of organization and maintenance. In 1807, an Englishman named John Lambert visited New York. In his diary, he referred to Trinity Church and St. Paul’s Chapel as “handsome structures” but added: "The adjoining churchyards, which occupy a large space of ground railed in from the street and crowded with tombstones, are far from being agreeable spectacles in such a populous city. … One would think there was a scarcity of land in America to see such large pieces of ground in one of the finest streets of New York occupied by the dead. The continual view of such a crowd of white and brown tombstones and monuments as is exhibited in the Broadway must tend very much to depress the spirits." Some burial places had been closed and relocated in the Seventeenth and Eighteenth Centuries. But the Nineteenth Century significantly accelerated that process. Overcrowded church yards and vaults (referred to as “intra-mural” burial grounds) were criticized by public health officials as “injurious to health, offensive to the senses, [and] repulsive to the taste of a refined age.” In New York City, the precipitating event to efforts to halt intra-mural burial was the Yellow Fever epidemic that began in late July 1822 on Rector Street. Reported cases spread quickly and when the first cases on Broadway were reported, public health officials feared that if the disease was not contained, it would quickly engulf City Hall and force the government into exile. On August 7th, the Board of Health ordered that an area around Rector Street be quarantined by the erection of fences. The quarantine area had to be expanded quickly. Searching for a cause of the epidemic and an effective way to halt the spread of the disease, the Board of Health began to panic. Prevailing medical thought of the day blamed epidemics on “miasma” and “infected air.” In early August, concerned about the cluster of cases in the area around Trinity Church, the Board of Health appointed a committee to “inquire into the expediency of regulating or preventing the interment of the dead in Trinity Church Yard during the continuance of the present epidemic.” The committee concluded that “the yard of that Church is at times, offensive to persons in its vicinity, and that, in the evening especially, the exhalations are such as perhaps are dangerous to the health of the citizens in its immediate neighborhood.” It was therefore recommended that “no grave be permitted to be opened or dug in Trinity Church Yard, until the further order of the Board of Health, under the penalty of one hundred dollars.” The proposed resolution was adopted by the Common Council on August 22nd. Around the same time, a report from Dr. Samuel Ackerly to the Board of Health recommended that the ban on interments at Trinity be made permanent. Dr. Ackerly related the story of the Cathedral of Dijon, “which [recently] produced a malignant disease in the congregation from the putrid bodies of the persons buried in the vaults of the Church. The disease ceased after the Church was ventilated and fumigated.” This case was presented to the Board of Health as “proof that noxious exhalations may arise from dead bodies.” Accordingly, Dr. Ackerly suggested that the source of the Yellow Fever epidemic may be Trinity Church Yard, where “the ground has been one hundred and twenty-four years receiving the dead, and the evil day has at length arrived. To strike at the root of the evil,” Dr. Ackerly advised, “no further interments should be allowed there. The graves might be leveled and covered with a body of clay, upon which a layer of lime, ashes and charcoal should be placed, and the grave stones laid flat, that the rain may run off and not penetrate the soil to hasten putrefaction and increase the exhalations.” On September 15th, the Board of Health “respectfully request[ed]” that churches with adjacent burial grounds in lower Manhattan cover their graves “thickly with lime, or charcoal, or both.” On September 23rd, Trinity Church Yard was covered with 52 casks of lime. The next day, 192 bushels of slacked lime were spread in St. Paul’s church yard, a few blocks north of Trinity Church. On September 28th, 172 bushels of slacked lime were spread “upon the grave-yard and about the vaults of the North Dutch church corner of William and Fulton-streets. The grounds about this church were not extensive and principally occupied by vaults, which nevertheless emitted very offensive effluvia.” Thirty additional casks of lime were slacked and spread at Trinity Church on October 1st. On October 8th, the vaults of the Middle Dutch Church at the corner of Liberty and Nassau were covered with 40 casks of lime. “These vaults were exceedingly offensive,” the Board of Health reported. It was also reported that “the vaults of the French church in Pine-street in the vicinity of the former church also emitted disagreeable smells.” By late November 1822, the Yellow Fever epidemic had subsided. With an eye towards preventing the next outbreak, the Common Council passed a resolution to consider the future of intra-mural burial. "It appears to be the opinion of Medical Men that the great number of the dead interred in the several cemeteries within the bounds of this City, is attended with injurious consequences to the health of the inhabitants. This subject is therefore worthy of consideration and if the effects are in reality such as some of the faculty declare them to be, ought not future interments be prohibited at least during a part of the year. …" A law forbidding interments south of Canal Street was proposed in early 1823. At the time, there were at least 23 separate burial grounds south of Canal Street, many adjacent to churches. The leaders of the Reformed Dutch Church, the First Presbyterian Church, Grace Church, St. George’s Church, Christ’s Church, and Vestry of Zion Church all presented remonstrances to the Common Council in February 1823 objecting to the proposed law. Over those objections, a Law Respecting the Interment of the Dead was enacted by the Common Council on March 31, 1823. "Be it ordained by the Mayor Aldermen & Commonalty of the City of New York in Common Council Convened. That if any Person or Persons shall after the first day of June next dig up or open any grave or cause or procure any grave to be opened in any burying ground cemetery or church yard or in any other part or place in this City which lies to the Southward of a line commencing at the centre of Canal Street on the North River and running through the centre of Canal Street to Sullivan Street thence through Sullivan st. to Grand Street thence through Grand St. to the East river or shall inter or deposit or cause or procure to be interred or deposited in any such grave any dead body every such person shall forfeit and pay for every such offence the sum of Two hundred and fifty dollars." "And be it further Ordained that no dead body shall after the first day of June aforesaid be interred or deposited in any vault or tomb south of the aforesaid line under the penalty of Two hundred and fifty dollars for each and every offence." Churches south of Canal Street continued to fight the law. On April 21, 1823, the leaders of St. George Church, the Brick Presbyterian Church, the First Presbyterian Church of Wall Street, and Trinity Church requested revisions to permit some burials and entombments in private vaults. But the die had been cast. As the population of Manhattan grew, the Common Council moved the line prohibiting new burials northward, first to 14th Street, then to 86th Street. Without the income generated by burials, many churches closed their doors and relocated their dead to the new rural cemeteries in Brooklyn, Queens, and the Bronx. Similar complaints in Boston prompted the creation of Mount Auburn Cemetery, in Cambridge, Massachusetts, one of the most important and earliest rural cemeteries. Justice Joseph Story gave the address at the dedication of Mount Auburn cemetery in 1831. Story, then an Associate Justice on the United States Supreme Court and a professor at Harvard Law School, emphasized “the duty of the living” to “provide for the dead.” He explained that although the obligation to provide “grounds … for the repose of the dead” is a Christian duty, our “tender regard for the dead” is universal and “deeply founded in human affection.” Justice Story explained that Mount Auburn had been founded to cure the problem with the Boston colonial cemeteries. "It is painful to reflect, that the Cemeteries in our cities, crowded on all sides by the overhanging habitations of the living, are walled in only to preserve them from violation. And that in our country towns they are left in a sad, neglected state, exposed to every sort of intrusion, with scarcely a tree to shelter their barrenness, or a shrub to spread a grateful shade over the new-made hillock." Story argued that “there are higher moral purposes” that lead us to establish and care for cemeteries—"[i]t should not be for the poor purpose of gratifying our vanity or pride, that we should erect columns, and obelisks, and monuments to the dead; but that we may read thereon much of our own destiny and duty.” "[T]he repositories of the dead bring home thoughts full of admonition, of instruction, and slowly but surely, of consolation also. They admonish us, but their very silence, of our own frail and transitory being. They instruct us in the true value of life, and in its noble purposes, its duties, and its destinations. … We return to the world, and we feel ourselves purer, and better, and wiser, from this communion with the dead. I hope you’ve enjoyed this first episode in my series on Cemetery Tourism, and I hope that next time you’re in New York or Boston, you take the time to check out not only these colonial cemeteries located in the heart of the old cities, but the beautiful rural cemeteries that were later constructed – Mount Auburn in Cambridge, Green-wood in Brooklyn and Woodlawn in the Bronx. I’ll perhaps talk about the rural cemetery movement in a future episode. If you are interested in having me focus on particular cemeteries, please let me know by visiting www.deathetseq.com or dropping me a comment or a direct message on Facebook or Twitter. Thank you for joining me today on Death, et seq.

We trace the winding paths by which Jews, after the diaspora, sought out social and economic niches in which they were able to survive within European Christian society. We uncover the origins of the two main Jewish groups in Europe -- the Sephardic and Ashkenazi -- and consider how they adapted to changing conditions, including the increasing assimilation of German Jews in the 1700s, which led on the one hand to the beginnings of Jewish reform and on the other to the appearance of Hasidism, a mystical renewal movement. Most importantly, we consider the deep and long-denied influence of the messianic fervor that swept over Europe in the 1660s surrounding the mercurial and mischievous Greek rabbi, Sabbatai Zvi. Please help to make it possible for these lectures to continue! -- https://www.patreon.com/user?u=5530632

What happened to the European Christian world after Luther posted his 95 theses. Protestant scholasticism, pietism, Philip Melanchthon, Johann Sturm, Martin Bucer, Primoz Trubar, and Johann Arndt.  

Music can be scary, even terrifying.  Certain combinations of notes induce nervousness and unease in the listener.  Musicians have known about these intervals for centuries.  They can induce tension, character, and depth into a song, and have been used in music throughout the world since before music theory was even a thing.  In modern music these intervals are the roots of jazz, blues, and rock and roll.  In the medieval European Christian church, however, religious leaders branded these intervals satanic – making them even more unsettling.  But it’s not just tones that can make music horrifying.  There’s a long history of folk songs telling stories of real murders in graphic detail, and these murder ballads have been popular for centuries.  Music goes right to your emotions, which makes it a fabulous way to induce horror.  In this episode I’ll talk about the “devil’s tone,” murder ballads, and other tricks of recorded music that induced horror hysteria over the years – some of it imagined, and some of it very real.   If you like the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes.  It really helps.  Thanks a lot for listening.    You can now subscribe to the Hellbent for Horror podcast now available on iTunes and Stitcher   iTunes link: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/hellbent-for-horror/id1090978706 Stitcher link: http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/hellbent-for-horror?refid=stpr   For you, the listeners of Hellbent for Horror, Audible is offering a free audiobook download with a free 30-day trial to give you the opportunity to check out their service. To download your free audiobook today, go to: http://www.audibletrial.com/HellbentForHorror   Tritone “Diabolus in Musica” Mystery Plays: The Last Judgment  “Essentials of Music Theory” by Carl Edward Gardner Professor John Deathridge, King Edward professor of music, King's College London Giuseppe Tartini’s “The Devil’s Trill Sonata” Richard Wagner “Gotterdammerung” Murder Ballads “Pretty Polly” “The Twa Sisters” “Tom Dooley”  “Folsom Prison Blues”  “Mack the Knife”  “Stagger Lee” Jazz -Devil’s Music Screaming Jay Hawkins “I Put a Spell on You” “Yesterday and Today” Backmasking “Paul is Dead” Conspiracy White Album “Revolution 9” “I’m So Tired” “Helter Skelter” and Charles Manson Aleister Crowley -“Magick, Book 4” (1913) “Stairway to Heaven” Backmasking controversy Black Sabbath (movie) Black Sabbath (band) Horror Horror Movies Heavy Metal         #Tritone #Diabolus in Musica #Mystery Plays #The Last Judgment  #Essentials of Music Theory by Carl Edward Gardner #Professor John Deathridge, King Edward professor of music, King's College London #Giuseppe Tartini’s #The Devil’s Trill Sonata #Richard Wagner #Gotterdammerung #Murder Ballads #Pretty Polly #The Twa Sisters #Tom Dooley  #Folsom Prison Blues  #Mack the Knife  #Stagger Lee #Jazz -Devil’s Music #Screaming Jay Hawkins #I Put a Spell on You #Yesterday and Today #Backmasking #”Paul is Dead” Conspiracy #White Album #Revolution 9 #I’m So Tired # “Helter Skelter” and Charles Manson #Aleister Crowley -“Magick, Book 4” (1913) # “Stairway to Heaven” Backmasking controversy #Black Sabbath (movie) #Black Sabbath (band) #Horror #Horror Movies #Heavy Metal