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In this powerful episode, we hear the story of Alice, who shares her brave journey through two contrasting pregnancies and the impact of intimate partner violence on her mental health. Co-host Sarah joins as one of our VBAC Link certified doulas to discuss the importance of mental health awareness, especially during pregnancy and postpartum. This episode dives into the significance of having a strong support system and the need for open conversations about postpartum mood disorders and trauma-informed care. Alice is a beautiful example of resilience, healing, and the strength that women possess.National Domestic Violence HotlineNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Women of Strength. Hello. How are you doing? I hope you are having an amazing week. We have another story coming your way today, and we actually have a co-host today, my friend Sarah. Hello, Sarah.Sarah: Hi.Meagan: Thank you so much for being here today.Sarah: Yeah, I'm super excited to be here.Meagan: I love having our VBAC Link doulas on the podcast here and there. It's fun to not only share you with the world and let people know who you are and where you are, but really just to hear from you guys and hear your educational pieces and just have you guys in the story and giving your input, and I just love it. So thank you so much for being here.Sarah: Absolutely.Meagan: Guys, today, like I said, we have an HBAC coming your way. But I did want to let you know that today's episode may have mention of partner abuse and suicide. I really, really, really think it is so important to really not mask stories and share the rawness of people's stories because I think the rawness and the real story is what makes us who we are today and really creates the story to be true. I just wanted to give you guys a heads-up. But I'm going to turn the time over to Sarah. She is in replace of our review today doing an educational piece and actually talking about mental health.Sarah: Yeah. Hi. So again, I'm super excited to be here. I'm Sarah Marie Bilder. I'm located in the upstate South Carolina area and I do birth and postpartum doula work. I really just wanted to cover the topic of mental health because in the story that we're gonna hear today, it's pretty relevant and it's one of those things that aren't often talked about. I don't wanna say that that's not talked about because when we say that it kind of, I feel, diminishes the people that are talking about it. It's important to really highlight when we are talking about it. But a lot of the times when we're preparing for pregnancy, we're focused on the physical aspects or maybe mindfulness or something along those lines, but we don't really dig deep into postpartum mood disorders or when there are mood disorders that are still occurring in pregnancy or even that might exist before we're pregnant that will still continue throughout pregnancy. So it's really important to make sure that we're having these conversations and that we're being open and honest with the people around us. Maybe if you aren't in therapy or have somebody sort of set up along those lines, you still have a close friend or a support person that you can be sharing this information with or really opening up about the feelings that you're having because they are very real feelings, and even into postpartum, it goes more than just the baby blues. There are a lot of different things that can be occurring and happening that it's really important to continue to have those support people. So as a doula, this is something that I make sure my clients are aware of and open to, and I try to be as much of a support person as possible, but knowing when professionals need to step in and when situations need to be handled I think is really key. So making sure that you have people to talk to, making sure when you listen to these stories that you are considering different situations and different aspects and that we're talking to our mom friends too. If you're not the one currently going through it, if you're hearing somebody else going through different situations, we're continuing to stay open and stay together and stay supportive.Meagan: Yes, I love that. Thank you so much for that message. I also want to add through to it that after we have our babies, we are given a six-week follow-up. You do not have to wait six weeks to talk to your provider. If you are feeling these feelings, you do not have to wait until then. You one, can get in sooner. But two, there are other resources, and we will make sure to have those resources shared at the end of this episode and in our show notes. So if you or anyone that you know and love are experiencing these things, please know that there is more help. Okay, Alice and Sarah, thank you so much again for being here today. I want to turn the time over to you, Ms. Alice.Alice: Hello. Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here and share my story.Meagan: Me too.Alice: So I have had two pregnancies, two births, and they were both very, very different. My first pregnancy, when I think about when I found out I was pregnant with my first, it was the lowest point of my life. I was nine months into being married to my abuser and had really lost my entire sense of self. I was at this point where I just didn't understand how I had gotten there. I didn't understand how I had married him. I found myself hospitalized from a suicide attempt. I also had no social support. I had no family in the area. I had no job. My husband was an attorney, and I relied on his friends and his family for emotional support. I was hospitalized and felt very lost. About a week into my hospitalization, the staff, who were constantly running tests and blood draws, pulled me out of a group where I was learning how to deeply breathe, and to my shock, told me I was pregnant. I had no idea. It was just a very out-of-body experience being hospitalized for mental illness. Some people can find it really helpful in healing, and it can also be a trauma in itself, and it was that for me. So to be in this setting where I had no freedom, and then these people were telling me what was inside of my body. It was-- I couldn't process it. I was very disconnected to my pregnancy at first. The next five days of being hospitalized, I was presented with a lot of information about pregnancy and intimate partner violence. It's information that I think is really important for providers to know, but it was presented to me as a new pregnant person in an abusive relationship in a way that felt really coercive and fear-mongering. They told me that the leading cause of death in the United States for pregnant women was intimate partner homicide. Meagan: Okay. Alice: Yeah. I remember one provider telling me, "Your options are to terminate the pregnancy or to leave him now. It's our professional opinion that if you stay in this relationship while pregnant, it's very likely that he will kill you before you give birth." Meagan: Gosh. Alice: I remember feeling so shocked and afraid. I knew I wanted to be a mom. I think the decision to continue a pregnancy or not when you're faced with, it's always a difficult decision. It was for me because I was afraid, and I knew I wanted to be a mom. I also knew that I couldn't leave yet. The leaving is really complicated, and it's not a direct line to safety. I remember feeling when they were talking to me about leaving, like, "Well, you could go here or you could call this person," thinking like, don't you think I've already thought of this? Don't you think I've thought of every way to keep myself safe? Now I was pregnant, and I wanted the assumption that I was making decisions that were best for me and my baby. My pregnancy was difficult. I had hyperemesis and I had this pregnancy rash that was really itchy my whole pregnancy. They kept testing my bile levels, and they were all normal and never knew what was going on. I have scars on my body from scratching. I'm pretty sure now that it was just stress and breaking out in hives throughout my pregnancy. I had broken ribs in my third trimester. When I think about that pregnancy, I remember it being a time of suffering and fear. I feel sad for myself when I think of myself during that time experiencing pregnancy like that. At the same time, I had an incredible midwifery team based out of a hospital. I can't say enough about how supportive and trauma-informed they were. They never pressured me to leave. They asked questions like, "What can we do to help? How can we make you safer?" They trusted that I was doing everything I could and that I knew how to keep myself safe and how to keep my baby safe. I was living with my in-laws when I went into labor with my first. I had moved in and out of our home depending on how safe it was. I didn't have anywhere to go other than his parents'. I was living with them and my waters had been leaking for a few days and I knew. I was like, I know I'm not peeing this much all the time. I knew that my waters were leaking, but I didn't want to go to the hospital yet because I hadn't started contracting, and I knew they would induce. I started having contractions at midnight. I went in about 24 hours later. It was really slow. I tried everything I could to get things moving, but it just wouldn't speed up. I ended up being induced. I don't necessarily regret the decision to be induced. It did lead to a C-section, but when I went into the hospital, I didn't know what home I would go to. I wanted to be there. I remember thinking, I want to stay here. If that means I have to get induced, that means I get induced. But I felt much safer being in a hospital at that point. They started the induction process. I had a doula come, and I also had my therapist come. She was with me through my entire labor at the hospital and birth for-- she was there maybe 45 hours. We had made a contract and it's pretty innovative to have my therapist there as a support person at my birth. I think it's an induction story that we all know my body wasn't ready. I was on Pitocin for a very long time. Baby's heart rate started decelerating, not tolerating labor, and made the decision to have a Cesarean. It wasn't the birth that I wanted, but it was the safety that I wanted. I had support there. They made sure to tell me specific things that were in my birth plan that were triggers for me. When I was laid on the table for the C-section, someone got very close to my ear and said, "No one's tying you down. I know your arms are out. It might feel like that, but know you are not restrained." At one point, the anesthesiologist started petting my head because he was sitting by my head. The obstetrician who was just there to do my C-section, wasn't there for very long. She had read my birth plan and said to the male anesthesiologist, "She doesn't like her head to be touched." He stopped. I felt very seen. I did skin-to-skin in the delivery room. My therapist was in the operating room with me. It wasn't a terrible Cesarean experience. So postpartum was pretty hard. When I left the hospital, I was living alone with my baby. My in-laws agreed to encourage my husband to live with them so that we could be safe from him during the postpartum time. But living alone after a C-section with no family or friends and no doula was very, very difficult. My husband had substance-use disorder, and he took my pain medication when I got home. I just remember being in a lot of pain. I also was in this haze of falling in love with my baby. It still shocks me that I did not experience postpartum depression with my first. I was depressed through my pregnancy, and I also think I was in such a survival mode during the first year of my first baby's life that I didn't have any space to process or space to grieve. I was surviving. One year after giving birth to my first, I did file for divorce to get a restraining order and safely flee with my child, but it was a very long, difficult road.Meagan: If you are someone who is experiencing domestic violence during pregnancy, postpartum or just in general, there is help. You can reach out to the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 800-799-7233.Alice: So that was my first birth experience. Fast forward to four years later, I've memorialized the day that I found out that I was pregnant with my first because it was such the lowest point of my life. I think of it as this time where I was ready for my life to end. I'm gonna cry, but instead my life doubled and it led to this beautiful little human who I get to be a mom to and really changed the trajectory of my entire life, so I call it my life day. Four years later, on my life day, I was in a loving relationship with the most gentle man. I still am in that relationship. I felt like things were a little wonky with my body. I woke up and took a pregnancy test and saw on the exact same day that the hospital told me that I was pregnant, four years later, I had a positive pregnancy test. I was in a home that I owned, a home that was safe and filled with love and a relationship that was safe and loving. It was just so different. I went and I laid in bed with my then 3-year-old and said, "We're gonna be just fine." And I knew that we were going to be. My second pregnancy was also different. It was very healing. I experienced a lot of sadness again because I think I had space to grieve the first time. It also happened because I got pregnant right around the same time. It was like this weird re-do of my first one now with a loving partner and safety and getting to be pregnant. I think about what I wanted for my body and how to stay healthy. I didn't take a single vitamin during my first pregnancy. I was just focused on, how do I stay safe today? I can't even count all the supplements I was on this time. I knew pretty soon that I wanted a home birth. I feel like I was pretty educated on VBAC. I had been listening to The VBAC Link since I was pregnant with my first. I don't know why because I hadn't had a C-section yet, but I had loved the podcast and I knew the rates of repeat Cesareans. I also work in labor and delivery units and I know that they're very risk-averse. I felt like it was the safest option to birth at home. I also felt the weight of how precious it was to have a safe home that I could birth in. It was very meaningful for me to give birth in a space that was mine and was safe. My partner, who knew nothing about home birth, I broached the subject with him early in pregnancy was like, "I want to let you know. I don't know what you think about this, but I want to have a home birth." And he was just like, "Great." I was pretty surprised that he was so on board, but he trusted me, and he trusted me the whole way through. I did not have hyperemesis the second time. I didn't have the rash problem. I didn't have the broken ribs. I did have a lot of pain from pubic symphysis. Yeah, the second half of my pregnancy was like very difficult to even walk. I broke my pelvis in my teenage years and was a little unsure of how that healed. I broke it in two places. I have had this fear of, what if there's a bunch of scar tissue around a bone and baby's head couldn't get through? So I had that fear as well going into my home birth. My midwife was very skilled and very kind. It was a different experience of prenatal care. I also really loved my hospital prenatal care. I think given that I was in a high-risk situation, I loved my hospital prenatal care. It was exactly what I needed. And in my second birth, my home birth midwife was exactly what I needed. In my second birth, I went over my due date by 11 days which was such a mind game. I was so over it. I was just this crazy person who was doing everything that I could to get this baby out of me, but also was like, "No, I wanna be holistic. I don't to be induced. I'm not gonna--," so there were two parts of myself that were battling each other. But I, finally went into labor. My mother was here as well. My family lives far away, but my mother came to support me this time. It was just my mom and my partner and my three-year-old. I labored at home. I had my music. It was just a lovely experience of laboring and of joining in this experience that so many women have had of pain and beauty and endurance and strength. I felt so connected to the world and to women and to my mom. My midwife came. I started laboring at 7:00 PM. At 2:00 PM the next day, my midwife came. I labored in the tub. I had a blow-up birthing pool. I felt like labor was pretty straightforward until the last five hours that I was fully dilated, but he just wasn't descending. The midwife checked me and said that his head was stuck on my pubic bone. He was stuck there for five hours. It was a lot of pushing, but I wasn't really pushing the right way.It felt like contractions that just weren't producing anything. It wasn't opening anything. It wasn't moving him down. It was just nothing. I started to get really discouraged. We joke a lot about how belligerent I was towards the end. Right before I gave birth, I got very bossy and I decided it wasn't go going to happen. Like, "He's not going to descend. I'm over this. Call 911. Tell them to bring drugs. I need them here now." My midwife was like, "That's not how it works." I was like "No, call the police. Tell them to bring narcotics. I need to stop feeling this." I was being ridiculous. My midwife was encouraging me saying, "He is coming down. I know you're not feeling it, but I feel his head and it's right there. I think you're gonna have a car baby if we get in the car. and I don't want that to happen." I'm not a rude person, but I guess in labor, I am. But I stuck my finger in my vagina, and I was like, "Well, I don't feel him." They were loading up to go to the hospital because I was so insistent that this was not happening. I was standing in the living room and I said, "Wait." My partner was like, "She said wait." I could feel him coming down. It was the first time I really felt his head coming through my birth canal. It was such a different feeling. In 30 minutes, I pushed him out standing in our living room. It was just beautiful and lovely, and he was on my chest. My 3-year-old was there. Baby was on my chest. I was lying on my partner's chest. Nothing else mattered in that moment. Yeah. It was a lovely, beautiful, healing experience to come full-circle. I also gave birth on the four-year anniversary of filing for divorce and getting a restraining order from my abuser. It's like all of these things lined up just to give me this healing experience of new life.Meagan: Yeah. Seriously, these milestones that you're able to overcome from the past and replace with joy and beauty and excitement and healing. Oh, I have chills through the whole episode. How about you, Sarah?Sarah: Yeah. There's just so many parts of your story that are so unique and so fitting. There's so much strength in it, and there's so much emotion in listening and feeling all of the things that obviously you were going through. And some were external, but a lot were very internal. Thank you for sharing your story. The ability to be able to share your story takes so much strength in itself. Yeah.Meagan: We could see that and could see it in your eyes. You had my eyes welling up a few times. I was just feeling all the emotion as you were sharing and all the heartache in the beginning that you were sharing. And I loved how you were like, "I was in this. I was going through this really terrible, scary experience," but you were able to stay in this haze of bonding and you two together, you two thriving and surviving in this really unfortunate circumstance, but I am so glad that you were able to have that and grow and then now have this safe, loving home, and two cute babes.Alice: Yeah, they are cute.Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And although your story's so unique, it's also in very many of our VBAC stories. We have that traumatic experience and then it leads to that very healing experience. I think it's just one of those things. You had mentioned having that space to process and getting out of that survival mode too. I think that's really amazing to honor that and mention that because sometimes we are just in that survival mode, and we don't allow ourself or we don't have the ability to give ourselves that time to really process what is occurring and what is happening. And a lot of the time we just need to do that, and we need to allow ourselves the time to do some fear-clearing and release a lot of that anxiety and other fears that are happening and going on.Meagan: Also on the end of the story, when you were talking about five hours where baby was just kind of hanging out there and you were stuck there pushing, but not really pushing, but in this weird, funky spot in labor, we have seen this where people are pushing and they're like, "Your baby's not descending." We are actually given a diagnosis of failure to descend as a reason for Cesarean, but then simply standing up and moving-- and I'm sure you were moving and grooving along the way, but it just sometimes is one specific motion. It might have been the quickness of you standing up like, "Okay, I'm going. We're going to do this," that did it. We don't know.I love seeing too that you were saying, "I had a broken pelvis in the past. I don't really know how that healed." In a lot of ways, a lot of providers would be like, "You had a broken pelvis. You don't have a proven pelvis. I don't know. I don't think I'm comfortable with this." But then here you did it, right? But that movement and I don't know, I just feel like there's so much power within our bodies that it's just incredible, and I love seeing that. And then your partner was like, "Wait, hold on. Don't go anywhere. I think we're staying." I love that that is exactly how it unfolded and that your other baby was able to be there with you, and just so many amazing things about your story. Thank you so much for being vulnerable and just being here with us.Alice: Thank you. Thank you for having me.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this episode of Let's Talk About CBT, host Helen MacDonald speaks with Sarah, Sally, and Leanne about Sarah's experience of having Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT) after giving birth. They explore how CBT helped Sarah regain control during a challenging postnatal period, addressing struggles such as insomnia, anxiety, and adjusting to new motherhood. Sarah shares her journey of balancing therapy with the therapeutic benefits of movement and time spent in nature. CBT therapists Sally and Leanne discuss the powerful combination of therapy, physical activity, and connecting with nature for improving mental health.  Useful links: NHS Choices- Insomnia-https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/insomnia/  NHS Guidance on feeling depressed after childbirth: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/baby/support-and-services/feeling-depressed-after-childbirth/ MIND information on how nature can help mental health: https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/tips-for-everyday-living/nature-and-mental-health/how-nature-benefits-mental-health/ For more on CBT the BABCP website is www.babcp.com Accredited therapists can be found at www.cbtregisteruk.com Listen to more episodes from Let's Talk About CBT here. Credits: Music is Autmn Coffee by Bosnow from Uppbeat Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/bosnow/autumn-coffee License code: 3F32NRBYH67P5MIF This episode was produced and edited by Steph Curnow   Transcript: Helen: Hello, and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT, the podcast where we talk about cognitive and behavioural psychotherapies, what they are, what they can do, and what they can't. I'm Helen MacDonald, your host. I'm the senior clinical advisor for the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies Today I'm very pleased to have Sarah, Sally and Leanne here to talk with me about having CBT, in Sarah's case, when you've recently had a baby and also the value of getting more active and getting outside into nature and how that can help when you're also having CBT. Sarah, would you like to introduce yourself, please? Sarah: Hi, I'm Sarah. I'm, 37 from Sheffield and like I said, just recently had a baby, and she's absolutely wonderful. She is a happy, loud little bundle of joy. I ended up having CBT though, because the experience of having the baby wasn't what I thought it was going to be, I think is the reason. And I, just went a little bit mad, so I got some help. Yeah, I'm normally a very happy, positive, active person. Lots of friends, very sociable, always like to be doing things, always like to be in control and have a plan. I like to know what I'm doing and what everyone else is doing. And all that changed a little bit and I didn't really know what to do about it. So yeah, got some therapy. Helen: Thank you Sarah. So, we'll talk with you a bit more about what that was like. And first, Sally, would you like to just briefly say who you are? Sally: Yeah, so I'm, my name's Sally. I am a Cognitive Behavioural Therapist, working both in the NHS and in, in private practice at the moment. Helen: Thank you. And Leanne, Leanne: Hi, I'm Leanne. and I'm a cognitive behavioural therapist as well. And I also work in the NHS and in private practice with Sally. Helen: Thank you all very much. What we're going to do is ask Sarah to tell us a bit more about, when you use the term mad, perhaps I could ask you to say a little bit more about what was happening for you that made you look for some therapy. Sarah: Wel the short answer to that is I developed insomnia about 12 weeks postnatally, didn't sleep for five days. Baby was sleeping better than most, you know, so it was equally frustrating because there was no real reason I didn't think that I should be awake. And sleep obviously is very important when you've had a baby. As I said, I like to be in control, like to prepare, like to know what's going on. So I did hypnobirthing, I prepared, I planned, I packed the biggest suitcase for this birth of this baby that I was really excited for and I thought I'd prepared mentally for every eventuality- what kind of birth, what would happen afterwards, but all very physical because they're the sorts of things that I could understand and imagine. And basically I ended up having an emergency C section, which in the moment I was fine with and I didn't think I was bothered by it, but the level of pain afterwards, that then again affected my level of control over looking after the baby. And the level of debilitation it created that I wasn't expecting- this is the key thing, I wasn't expecting it. That meant that I wasn't able to be me, really. I wasn't able to not least look after a baby, but get myself dressed, get myself showered, walk to the shop, drive a car, play netball, walk my dog. And I wasn't able to do any of that. I didn't appreciate that I was struggling with that, with accepting that. And because it went on for so long, and of course with this comes the baby blues that everyone talks about, but that's meant to only last apparently a couple of weeks. I, you know, you kind of just think, oh, well, I feel all this. I feel pain. I feel sad. I can't stop crying. But all that's meant to happen, all that's normal and it's sort of became the norm. So I was like, well, this is normal. This is how I'm going to feel forever. At this point I didn't have insomnia. I just could not stop crying. And I mean, like I couldn't, I didn't talk to anyone for two days at one point, because I knew if I opened my mouth to say anything, I would start crying. Like literally anything, I would just start crying. What the clincher for me was when I spoke to a doctor, I thought they were going to say get out and about, do some therapy, which at the time, I'm going to be honest, I thought, I can't sleep. I need a fix now. What I now know is I was doing a lot of behaviours that over time culminated in my body going, you're not listening to me, you're not well. Right I need to do something physical so that you wake up and do something about it. And that was the insomnia. So, I went to the doctor fully expecting them to say, do some mindfulness, do this, do that. And at that point I was just, you need to fix this now. I need to sleep. I need drugs. And yes, that's what they gave me, but they did say you need to do CBT- but what they did say what the first thing the doctor said was, you need antidepressants. Now, as a nurse working in GP surgery for them to jump all the self-help stuff and go take these tablets was like, Oh, right. I'm not okay. and it gave me that like allowance to say, I need to take tablets. But I already had said to myself, but I want to do not just mindfulness and helpfulness for myself. I want to do structured CBT because that way it is something I'm doing to give me back my control and I've got a plan. And because I already knew CBT was wonderful. Yeah, I didn't really understand what it was, how it worked, the structure of it. And I get that there's different types for different problems. but I knew that's what I wanted to do, once I had tablets to help me sleep and knew the antidepressants were going to work eventually, which did take a while. I was at least doing something myself that would help me forever. And I just thought, what have I got to lose? I need to do something. And until I started CBT, basically, I just felt like I was running around in circles in the dark. And the CBT gave me control and focus and, right, this is what we're doing going that way. Because until I started CBT, you know, I was Googling everything. Right, I'll try this. Right, I'll try that. And because it didn't work within 24 hours, I'd then try something else and try something else. Now it was making it worse, obviously. So, to have the CBT and have my therapist say, do this one thing for a whole week. I was like, all right, okay. That's quite a long time, but there's obviously a reason. Helen: Sarah, thank you for telling us all about that. What I'm hearing is that you had a combination of massive changes in your life, which will happen when you've had a baby, all sorts of things about the kind of person that you are, kind of added to all your really careful and sensible preparations for having this baby and then really being taken by surprise almost by all the other impact that it had on you and taking a while really to look for help and to look for a very specific kind of help then. And I'm just wondering in the context of all that, what it was like when you first went to see Sally for therapy? Sarah: Well, like I say, it was brilliant. It was like having someone turn the lights on and point me in the right direction and say, right, head that way and don't turn off and don't go any other direction. Just keep going that way. And it will eventually result in this. It's like if you go to the gym and you're running on the treadmill and you're thinking, well, is this going to achieve what I want it to achieve? And until it does start to, you've not got that positive reinforcement, to keep going. So quite often you stop, and that's what I was doing. I was trying one thing, trying the next, because I was so desperate for it to just go away, this insomnia. Which obviously at the time was one thing, but I understand now there was a whole other problem going on but the insomnia was what I needed fixing. I found CBT for insomnia, but Sally said, do you want to do a more generic anxiety control type approach and I said, yeah, because that's what if before this, you know, five, six years ago, little things would happen. And I think, Oh, I should do CBT for that. So it's clearly the same thing. So yeah. Why don't we just tackle it as a whole? And that was definitely the best thing to do. Helen: It sounds as if one of the things that was really helpful was looking at the bigger picture, as well as focusing on taking enough time to make changes. Okay. Can you tell us about the specific things that you did in therapy that you saw as particularly helpful. Sarah: Yeah. Like you say, what was helpful was being given a timeline really, and a direction. Like I say, when you go to the gym, you're not sure if it's going to work, I had to just trust Sally that what was she was explaining to me was going to work. And of course, at the time I couldn't see how it was going to work, but at least someone I trusted was telling me it will this, just do this? What was most helpful I could say was being told you've got to do the homework yourself. There's no point in being just told stuff. It was explained to me. And then what was helpful was then being told, go away and do this one thing for a whole week and then we'll review. So it really just broke down my thoughts, behaviours, my thought processes that I was going at such a hundred miles an hour that I wasn't giving, even giving myself time to think or realise I was having, and essentially that's what CBT is, you know, making you stop, think and unpick your thoughts and your behaviours and then trying to change them accordingly. So yeah, that the homework was helpful. And then obviously reviewing that homework, which with, before I even got to the review, a week later, I was able to physically feel and see why I was being asked to do what I was being asked to do. Helen: And I'm just thinking the analogy that you used there about being in the gym that you wouldn't necessarily expect to be super fit or running five miles the first time you got on the treadmill, but there was something that was tending to make you, you use the word desperate really to make a difference immediately. Because things needed to change. And during the therapy, was there anything that you found particularly challenging or something that either you and Sally talked about it, but you really didn't want to try it? Sarah: Well, as the weeks moved on, obviously the challenges that the homework got harder because it asked you to delve further in and make the changes of what you've, you know, you've realized just to give an idea, essentially the first week, I was asked to literally rate my happiness per hour as to what I was doing. Sounds simple. It is simple, but very quickly I realised, well, this doesn't make me as happy. So why am I doing it? And then of course you stop doing it because you know, it doesn't make you happy. And then over time, there's less time that you're unhappy. The second week, it was a bit more detail, rate how anxious certain things make you., So that was all fine. But once it got to the weeks where it was highlight the things that you've found out make you anxious, now do them or don't do them. Or, you know, if there's something you're doing to make yourself feel better, but actually you've realised it doesn't really work, it actually has a negative effect later on, don't do it. And if there's something that you're avoiding, but you know probably will make you feel better- do it. So that's obviously that's the scary bit because you've literally facing the spider, if that's what your problem is. but again, like every other stage during the CBT, I found it really easy. The main thing was I trusted Sally and also had nothing to lose.  One of the things, the behaviours that we realized I was doing was seeking reassurance from people on hypothetical worries. So you Google, you ask your experienced mums, why is my baby this colour or not sleeping or eating or the poo looks like this? They can't answer that. And you're wanting them to reply, Oh, it's this. And of course they can't. So, or I'd say to my husband, am I going to sleep tonight? He doesn't know that. And by doing that, I would reinforce the anxiety. But yeah, that was an example of something I stopped myself doing. And within days I realized, Oh, there was that thing that normally I would have asked about or Googled. I didn't. And actually nothing bad happened and I forgot all about it. Cause that was the worry was that it all comes back to sleep. If I didn't ask, would I then lie awake at night worrying I don't know what the answer is, but I didn't. So yeah, the hardest bit was actually stopping certain behaviours or starting certain behaviours. But actually I found it very easy once I had done because the positive reinforcement was there, you know, it worked. Helen: Thank you, Sarah. And, in a couple of minutes, I'm going to bring Sally into the conversation to talk about her reflections on what you've just been saying. Overall though, what are the things that you're still using now from what happened in therapy? What are the things that you learned and how are things now compared with when you first went to see Sally. Sarah: Well, things are great. I'm on antidepressants still. I'm going to see the doctor soon. Cause they want you to be on those for six months before you even think about coming off them. I feel myself now, so I feel confident to do that. Um, and because I'm healed, I'm back to being myself physically. I play netball, I walk the dog. I mean, I walked for four hours yesterday because of dog walking and pushing the pram around and played netball as well. So that helps, you know, being out and about physically, being in nature where I would normally be definitely helps my mood. The CBT a hundred percent has helped because there's been change again with the baby. So we've gone from breastfeeding to weaning, sleep changes, cause it's all about sleep, putting her in her own room, thinking when she's going to wake up, is she okay? Am I going to get back to sleep? Is there any point in me going to sleep? Cause she can be awake in this many hours. You know, that's a whole new challenge that I've had to deal with and there's been times that I've stopped and thought, Ooh. There's a thing I'm doing here and it's a behaviour that we recognised was what I was doing originally, which when I did it too much caused the problem. So, I've been able to really be more self-aware, basically, checking with myself and go, stop that. You don't need to do that. Everything will be fine. And guess what it is. Helen: Well, that's really good to hear. And what I'm also hearing is that it's not just that therapy helped, is that you're still using the techniques that you learn in the therapy. Sarah: I am. And also, I meant to say. This might not be the same for everybody, but it's quite important for myself because I'm not at work at the moment, you know, I'm a nurse. I've lost a sense of not purpose, but people come to me every day at work asking for help and support and advice. And I love to be able to do that and hear them say that's really helped, thank you. And since having the CBT, because it is something people are more happy to talk about nowadays, the amount of people I've spoken to that have said, Oh, I've done CBT or Oh, I'm thinking about, I've been told I should do CBT. Or none of that just I'm doing this behaviour and I'm not happy. I feel like I've been able to be a mini therapist to a few other people. I've been able to pass the torch a little bit because even though the problem they might be having is different to insomnia or anxiety, a lot of what Sally taught me was, I found, they were telling me things and I was thinking, well, I'll just say this thing that I do because it would work. And I've been able to relay what Sally said to so many people. And that's given me a lot of, joy because I've been able to help people. And they've said, Oh, right. Brilliant. You know, either they've gone to therapy because I've told them why they should because they didn't have anyone telling them that before, they've gone and then come back and gone, that was great. Or they've said to me, Oh, I didn't think anybody else was on Sertraline. 80 percent of the country are on Sertraline. It's fine. And that gives them support. Or like I say, the little technique Sally taught me, I've said, do this. And then they've come back and gone, do you know that really helped. So that's been nice for me too. Helen: Well, if there's somebody out there listening to this, who hasn't had that kind of conversation with you, or someone else who's recommended CBT or things that you can do to help in a situation like that. Is there anything that you would want to say about, CBT or looking after your mental health that anybody out there who hasn't encountered it before might need to know or want to hear. Sarah: It's free, most of the time. It's something that will help you for the rest of your life. Unlike, you know, a course of antibiotics. it's something that gives you control. It doesn't hurt, there's no injections. It's brilliant. Talk to people, I think is the key thing, not least your doctor, because obviously that's a private conversation. But again, as working in a GP surgery, I know that majority of health issues that come through the door, there's always an in for therapy. There's always a little bit of whatever they've come in with. Do you know what therapy could help that?  It should be the crux of everything. You know whenever a patient comes to see me, I can't think of many situations where I don't say, do you know what would help? Drinking more water. I feel like it's just as important as that in terms of you can't fix something up here if you don't get your foundation and your foundation is nourishment and happiness and the therapy made me happier because I had more control, and was less anxious and more relaxed and, you know, just chill. So I think just talk to people, not least your GP, if you don't want to talk to someone personally. Helen: From my point of view, that's a great message, Sarah. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. And what I'm going to do now is I'm going to ask Sally, just to talk a little bit, I could see, I know our listeners can't see our faces, but I could see Sally smiling when you were saying some of the things that she told you to do. And I'd be really interested to hear Sally's reflections on her therapy with you and how you work together. Sally: Yeah, absolutely. It was brilliant working with Sarah and I think it's really nice to see where she's at now and also the fact that she's still using a lot of those tools that she learned and that she put into practice and, I think one of the things that was really good is that Sarah was ready. She was ready to engage. She wanted to do, you know, she wanted to do all of the things. She wanted to practice everything. She was ready there with the notebook, every session kind of, you know, making notes, taking it all in. And that's brilliant because that's what you need in CBT is really just to come with an open mind and just think about things in a different way. So that was really good. And I think as well, one of the things we discussed before we started the therapy was, time away from the baby. So this was Sarah's time, you know, this was an hour a week where, Sarah's husband or mum would look after the baby and this would be Sarah's hour where it's just about Sarah and it's just about this therapy and the CBT and so it was really important that she had that time and that space with no distractions. And so that I think that worked really well. We did some face to face and some remote via Teams sessions together. And I think one of the, one of the sort of challenges initially, as Sarah's mentioned before, Sarah's problem was that she couldn't sleep, that's what Sarah came with, it was a sleep problem. And it took us a little bit of time to sort of think about that together and unpick it together and go, actually, do we think it might be a symptom of a bigger picture, something else that's going on. And so we talked a bit over time and agreed as Sarah mentioned that actually it probably feels like more of a generalized anxiety and worry problem that was going on that was then impacting on the sleep. We spent quite a bit of time just exploring that and we did some fun experiments and things as the sessions went on, which is probably what I was smiling along to because I know it's not always easy for clients to, to sort of do those things and want to drop things like reassurance seeking. It's a safety net. And it's hard to drop that sometimes. Helen: Thanks, Sally. You've just said two things there that I would really like to explore a little bit more. You said fun experiments and reassurance seeking. So can you explain what you mean by those please? Sally: Of course. So, suppose I say fun because experiments are quite fun, aren't they sometimes. I know it's not easy to push yourself out of your comfort zone but I think we, me and Sarah had a bit of a laugh about some of the things that, you know, in the session, once we'd sort of sat down together and said, okay, so you're asking all of these other mums, for example, you know, what would they do in this situation, or like Sarah mentioned, what does it mean that my baby is this colour or that this is here and, you know, as we sort of broke it down together we could sort of see that, oh, actually, yeah, that they don't know. They're not going to be able to tell me this. My husband doesn't know if I'm going to be able to sleep tonight or not. So I'm asking this, but actually it's not getting me anywhere. So I suppose we almost got to a point where we could sort of see the funny side to those questions. And actually that helped, I think a little bit with then, right. How do we drop these things? How do we experiment with them? How do we move forward? And that really started to increase Sarah's confidence. And I could see that from session to session, you know, she wasn't asking other people, she was just allowing herself to rely on her own thoughts and her own experiences. And that worked really well for her. Helen: So there's something quite important about testing things out, finding out for yourself really having the experience of what it's like to do something differently and check whether that works in your particular situation. There was another phrase that Sarah used as well, which was positive reinforcement. I think we should just mention that's about essentially what reward you get or what is it that happens that makes you more likely to do something again. And that's what positive reinforcement means. It's just something that happens after we've done something that makes it more likely we'll do it again. And, to me, it sounds like one example of that was making it fun, testing these things out and actually getting something rewarding out of it was part of that journey. Sally: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a big part of it. Helen: And one of the things that made me smile when you were speaking, Sarah, was when you were talking about what Sally told you to do. And what things you ended up trying out for homework and those sorts of things, the way Sally's talked about it was deciding together, discussing it. I'd be really interested to hear a bit more about do you get told what to do in CBT or is it more you end up in a position where you've decided to do it? Sarah: No, you don't get told what to do. Of course. It's all very, like Sally says, you talk about it and then together decide what might be the best experiments is a good word. Cause everyone's different. Obviously, my exact path of how we got from A to B probably might not work for somebody else. Like Sally says, I came with a notebook, wrote everything down, did homework, because that works for me. No, she didn't tell me what to do. And what was funny as well was Sally's very good at just sitting back and letting you talk, which works because I talk a lot. So she sits back and she's very good at just sort of nudging you to realisations on your own, because if someone tells you that you think something or that you should do something, it doesn't really mean much. If you think it through yourself, because someone's supported you towards that thought process, you believe it more. It makes more sense. And you're like, ah, you know, the cogs go a bit slower, but then you get there. And so over the weeks I would be reflecting on what I'd been doing for Sally, myself, but with the homework. And she'd just go, and so do you think, and what do you reckon? And then I'd go off on another blah, blah, blah, and come back to a realisation that, and she'd have this sort of pleasing grin on her face, of yes that's where I was hoping you'd get to, but you need to get there yourself, obviously. And I was just like, really proud of myself, but also proud of, chuffed for her that it was going in the right direction, it was working. Helen: It's good to hear that you are proud and also it's good for me here listening to you both talk about this because we do talk in CBT about guided discovery and that's exactly what you've just described to us is that idea that it's you that's looking at what's happening And the therapist is perhaps asking you some well-placed questions, but it is about you and what you need and your process and drawing your conclusions from what you've discovered. It's good to hear you talking about that experience. And I'm just thinking about, at the beginning, we did mention that getting active, getting out into nature and things to do with moving more were an important part of the therapy and I'd really like to bring Leanne in as well to talk about how getting active, getting out into nature might be an important part of that therapy journey. Leanne: Oh, lovely, yeah it's something that Sally and I do a lot in our CBT because we recognize that the cognitive behavioural therapy has a really strong evidence base. There's a lot of research that says that it works and it's useful for lots of common mental health problems. But we also know that there's a really strong evidence base for exercise. Exercise is known to be one of the best antidepressants. And there's research as well that says that being in nature has a massive mood boosting effect. And if you pull all those three things together, then surely the outcome can only be brilliant if you've got lots and lots of really good evidence to say that, you know, any one of these variables on its own is going to help you, but let's combine the three. So, so we are huge advocates of including that in the work that we do as much as possible for lots and lots of different reasons, but you know, that sits underneath it all. It can be so good for mood. And also from our own experience I know I feel better when I've blown the cobwebs off, or we've got outside, or I felt the wind on my face, or I've been in nature. I've just moved a little bit. So from personal experience, both Sally and I can say it works. Helen: That's really good to hear, Leanne. And I'm just thinking, I can hear the enthusiasm in your voice and certainly we do know about that effect on wellbeing on getting out in the fresh air, moving more, and how important that is. And without taking away from how important that is, Sarah was talking about she just had major surgery. A caesarean section is actually quite a big operation. She's also got a tiny baby, so at least in the immediate short term, it would have been really difficult for her to move much or get out in the fresh air very much. And it might be the case not only for people who've recently had a baby, even without the surgery, it can have quite a big impact on your body but also perhaps for people with other challenges to getting out and about and moving and I'm just wondering, how can people still benefit from combining getting more active with things that might help say anxiety and depression when they do have challenges about getting out and about? Leanne: I think the first thing that comes to mind is to get medical guidance to kind of find out from somebody who knows your body as well as you do about what's appropriate and what's doable, before you start leaping into exercise or doing anything. And I think it's about trying to find ways just to move a little bit, whether that's, you know, stretching or things like chairobics or chair yoga, those kinds of things can be things that people do at home when they have limitations or pain or, you know, anything like that, but within the realms of, I suppose you've got to pace it within your capabilities and what's appropriate for you. But things like connecting with nature. I was looking into this prior to was talking today and things like birdwatching and looking out of the window or doing a little bit of gardening or tending to window boxes and those kinds of things can give you the same powerful effects of connecting with nature and a bit of activity too. It's not about, I suppose when we think about exercise and we think about movement, we often think about the Olympics and we think about marathon runners and we think about going to the gym and lifting really heavy weights over your head. And it doesn't have to be like that. It can be small things often and Sally and I were talking about this before about, the NHS recommendations and we worked out that it's about 20 minutes a day of movement that's helpful. And also, if you add 20 minutes a day in nature so you do 20 minutes moving around in nature every day, that's going to have a huge effect. So if you can find a way to, to do a little bit, a little walk, a little stretch, look out the window, even watch a nature documentary, that has a massive effect on your mood as well, because it's connecting with nature but in a different way, you don't have to leave the house for that. How does that answer your question Helen? Helen: It does thank you, Leanne. And I'm really pleased to hear you say that it doesn't have to involve buying expensive equipment or joining the gym. You don't have to live on the edges of a beautiful park or something like that. It's something that you can do whatever your living circumstances are. There's all sorts of creative ways that you can incorporate this as part of recovering, improving depression and anxiety and your mental health more generally. And I wonder whether, Sarah has any comments about that, Sarah, because you did mention how important that was to you even before you had your baby, and of course there would have been quite a big change to what was available to you immediately after you had her. Just wondered what your responses to what Leanne's just been saying about that. Sarah: Yeah, I mean, like I said at the very beginning, my expectations of getting back to being myself were not met. And so the big things were, I actually made a list for and showed Sally of things that I'd written down saying, and I entitled it Getting Back To Me. And it was in order of, I just want to be able to make tea for my husband, walk the dog with the baby. These are all things that I just thought I'm never going to be. I don't understand how I'm going to be able to do these. And every time I did them, I was like, oh look, I'm doing that. You know, playing netball and the big one was paddle boarding, and I did it the other week and I was like, oh yeah paddle boarding. Like Leanne says, when it was very important for me as someone who's very active and I'm outdoors with the dog in the countryside all the time to get back to that. And like Leanne says though, it doesn't have to be going for a run. You know, my level of, well, what do I want to achieve was forced to be lowered, if you like, that's the wrong word, changed and because what I hadn't realized on top of taking the dog for a walk was whilst I'm there, I'm listening to the water. I'm listening to the birds. I'm feeling, I'm smelling, I'm all these things. And I didn't realise all that had been took away from me. And so that was adding to how miserable I was. And, like Leanne says, it doesn't have to be right. I need to be able to go for a run. It can just be find yourself back in something that makes you feel happy. And I think one of the techniques I wanted to just mention as well, that Sally taught me, when Leanne mentioned about you doing 20 minutes a day of being in nature or exercising, so that you make sure that you really are doing that to its fullest and you're not, you know, birdwatching whilst washing the dishes or thinking about what you need to make for tea. She taught me a five, four, three, two, one mindfulness technique, which basically is whilst you're tending to your bird box or whatever you're doing, think of five things that you can see. Four things you can hear, three things you can smell, two things you can feel, a one thing you can taste or something like that. And not only does that focus your mind for that minute on those things. It's really nice to think, Oh, I didn't know I could hear that I'm tuning into it. And then you do it again, five minutes later or as much as you want or, and it stops the thought processes that are negative as well, because you're focusing on that, but it just makes sure that when you're in the nature bit you are really soaking it all in as much as possible. Helen: Thank you for that, Sarah. And I'm just thinking, we've had a really interesting conversation about your experience of therapy, Sarah, Sally's and Leanne's thoughts about what they're doing in therapy and what. seems to help people to benefit from it. I was wondering if I could ask each of you in turn, what's your most important message that you'd want people out there to know? So, Sally, what do you think is one key thing that you would want people out there to know? Sally: I would say that mental health difficulties are common and it's not something that you have to sort of put up with or that you're stuck with, I suppose, for the long term, often there are a lot of quite often very simple techniques that you can practice and try and learn either with or without therapy, that can just really help to manage those, either the feelings of low mood or those anxiety feelings as well so, it doesn't have to be a major change. There's a lot out there and a lot of cost-effective things as well that you can get involved with that can just really help to boost your mood. Helen: Thank you, Sally. Leanne. Leanne: Oh, it's such a good question. I think what I'd really like people to think about is thinking about mental health, the way we think about fitness and physical health and spending time each day doing something that nourishes and nurtures mental fitness, let's call it. In the same way that we might, you know, drink some water, like Sarah said, take our vitamins and have something to eat and try and have good sleep, but moving in the direction of thinking about our mental fitness being on the agenda all the time so that I suppose it normalises asking for help and talking about things and looking after yourself and, and good wellbeing all round. Because I think people often really struggle, don't talk about it and then come for therapy when they've been on their own with it for a very long time. Helen: Thank you very much, Leanne. And Sarah, what do you think you would want people out there to know, one key thing that you'd like to say? Sarah: Probably that if you think something's not quite right or something really isn't right and you just don't, you're not sure what, you don't have to know, you don't have to be able to go to a doctor and say I've got this problem, can you fix it please? Doctors are just as, they're well trained to know when someone needs referring for therapy. So yes, that's who you need to probably go to first in a professional manner but if you just go and say, okay, this is how I feel, blah, blah, blah. They'll pick up and know, actually, you would benefit from therapy because it sounds like this might be happening or going on and then you get referred to someone obviously who's even more specialised, a therapist, and they can sit back and listen to you just offload and say, these are the things that's happening, I'm not happy because of this, that and the other, and they'll go, right, It could be this, shall we try that? And so, yeah, you don't have to have all the answers, I think, is my key thing. but you need to ask for them, Helen: Fantastic. Thank you so much. All three of you have been excellent at telling us about your experience and knowledge, and I'd just like to express how grateful I am for all three of you talking with me today. Thank you. Thanks for listening to another episode and for being part of our Let's Talk About CBT community. There are useful links related to every podcast in the show notes. If you have any questions or suggestions of what you'd like to hear about in future Let's Talk About CBT podcasts, we'd love to hear from you. Please email the Let's Talk About CBT team at podcasts@babcp.com, that's podcasts@babcp.com. You can also follow us on X and Instagram at BABCP Podcasts. Please rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast by clicking subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, so that each new episode is automatically delivered to your library and do please share the podcast with your friends, colleagues, neighbours, and anyone else who might be interested. If you've enjoyed listening to this podcast, you might find our sister podcasts Let's talk about CBT- Practice Matters and Let's Talk about CBT- Research Matters well worth a listen.  

In this episode, we delve into the impact of the new groundbreaking research uncovering the RNU4-2 genetic variant linked to neurodevelopmental conditions. The discovery, made possible through whole genome sequencing, highlights a genetic change in the RNU4-2 gene that affects about 1 in 200 undiagnosed children with neurodevelopmental conditions, making it more prevalent than previously thought. This discovery represents one of the most common single-gene genetic causes of such conditions. Our host, Naimah Callachand, Head of Product Engagement and Growth at Genomics England, is joined by Lindsay Pearse who shares her journey through the diagnosis of her son Lars. They are also joined by Sarah Wynn, CEO of Unique, and Emma Baple, Clinical Genetics Doctor and Professor of Genomic Medicine in the University of Exeter and the Medical Director of the Southwest NHS Genomic Laboratory Hub. We also hear from the 2 research groups who independently discovered the findings: Dr Andrew Mumford, Professor of Haematology at the University of Bristol Link to the research paper: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-024-03085-5  Assistant Professor Nicky Whiffin, Big Data Institute and Centre for Human Genetics at the University of Oxford Link to the research paper: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-07773-7 To access resources mentioned in this podcast:  Unique provides support, information and networking to families affected by rare chromosome and gene disorders - for more information and support please visit the website. Connect with other parents of children carrying a variation in RNU4-2 on the Facebook group.   "I think one of the things we really hope will come out of diagnoses like this is that we will then be able to build up more of that picture about how families are affected. So, that we can give families more information about not only how their child is affected but how they might be affected in the future."   You can read the transcript below or download it here: https://www.genomicsengland.co.uk/assets/documents/Podcast-transcripts/How-has-a-groundbreaking-genomic-discovery-impacted-thousands-worldwide.docx  Naimah: Welcome to Behind the Genes. Lindsay: So, this feeling that like we've been on this deserted island for eight years and now all of a sudden, you're sort of looking around through the branches of the trees. It's like, wait a minute, there are other people on this island and in this case actually there's a lot more people on this island. Yeah, it's very exciting, it's validating. It gives us a lot of hope and, you know, it has been quite emotional too and also a bit of an identity shift. Being undiagnosed had become quite a big part of our identity, and so now that's kind of shifting a little bit that we have this new diagnosis and are part of a new community. Naimah: My name is Naimah Callachand and I'm Head of Product Engagement and Growth at Genomics England. On today's episode, I'm joined by Lindsay Pearse whose son Lars recently received a genetic diagnosis, made possible by research using data from the National Genomic Research Library, Sarah Wynn CEO of Unique, and Emma Baple, a clinical genetics doctor. Today we'll be discussing the impact of recent research findings which have found a genetic change in the non-coding RNU4-2 gene, to be linked to neurodevelopmental conditions. If you enjoy today's episode, we'd love your support. Please like, share and rate us on wherever you listen to your podcasts. Naimah: And first of all, I would like everyone to introduce themselves. So, Lindsay, maybe if we could come to you first. Lindsay: Great, thank you. So, thank you for having me. I'm Lindsay Pearse, I live outside of Washington DC and I'm a mum to 3 boys. My oldest son Lars who is 8, he was recently diagnosed with the de novo variant in the RNU4-2 gene. Naimah: Thank you. And Emma? Emma: My name is Emma Baple. I'm a Clinical Genetics Doctor which means I look after children and adults with genetic conditions. I'm also a Professor of Genomic Medicine in the University of Exeter and the Medical Director of the Southwest NHS Genomic Laboratory Hub. Naimah: And Sarah? Sarah: Hi, thank you for having me. I'm Sarah Wynn, I'm the CEO of a patient organisation called Unique, and we provide support and information to all those affected by rare genetic conditions. Naimah: Great, thank you. It's so great to have you all here today. So, first of all Lindsay, I wonder if we could come to you. So, you mentioned in your introduction your son Lars has recently been diagnosed with the de novo variant. I wondered if you could tell us a bit about your story, and what it's been like up until the diagnosis. Lindsay: Sure, yeah. So, Lars is, he's a wonderful 8 year-old boy. With his condition, his main symptoms he experiences global developmental delays, he's non-verbal. He's had hypertonia pretty much since birth and wears AFO's to support his walking. He has a feeding disorder and is fed by a G-Tube. Cortical vision impairments, a history of seizures and slow growth, amongst other things. So, that's just a bit of a picture of what he deals with day to day. But he's my oldest child, so first baby. When I was pregnant, we were given an IUGR diagnosis. He was breech, he had a hernia soon after birth, wouldn't breastfeed. But all of these things aren't terribly uncommon, you know. But once he was about 3 or 4 months old, we noticed that he wasn't really able to push up like he should, and we were put in touch with early intervention services for an assessment. So, we went ahead and did that when he was about 4 or 5 months old. And as parents, we could just kind of tell that something was off from the assessors. And, you know, they were very gentle with us, but we could just get that sense that okay, something is off, and they're worried here. So, that kind of kickstarted me into making appointments left, right and centre with specialists. The first specialist that we saw was a neurologist. And yeah, again, that's another appointment that I'll never forget. She referred us to genetics and to get an MRI and some lab work but at the end of the appointment, she said to us, ‘Just remember to love your child.' And, you know, that was quite shocking to us at the time because it wasn't something that had ever crossed our mind that we wouldn't do or felt like we needed to be told to do this. But on the other hand, it certainly set off a lot of worry and anxiety of okay, well, what exactly are we dealing with here? So, fast forward, we saw genetics and that was about when Lars was about 8 months old. We went through a variety of genetic testing, a chromosomal micro-array, a single gene testing, then the whole exome testing. Everything came back negative, but it was explained to us that what was going on was likely an overarching genetic diagnosis that would explain his like, multi-system symptoms. And so meanwhile as he was getting older his global delays were becoming more pronounced and we were also in and out of the hospital a lot at this time. At first, he was in day care and, you know, any sort of cold virus would always turn into like a pneumonia for him. So, we were just in and out of hospital seeing a myriad of specialists, trying to put together this puzzle of what's going on and it was really hard to accept that nobody could figure it out. That was just, you know, sort of mind-blowing to us I guess. So, we applied for and were accepted into the Undiagnosed Diseases Programme at the National Institute of Health over here. The NIH as it's commonly referred to. So, we first went there when Lars was 2. He was one of their youngest patients at the time. But that was a really great experience for us because we felt like they were looking at him holistically and across a bunch of all of his systems, and not just seeing a specialist for sort of each system. So, we really appreciated that. We also did the whole genome sequencing through this research study. Although that also came back negative and so at that point, we were told to kind of keep following up symptomatically. Keep seeing the specialists and eventually maybe one day we'll find an overarching diagnosis, but that science just hadn't quite caught up to Lars. It was hard for me again to believe that and to sort of wrap my head around that. But certainly, it was an education from all of the doctors and geneticists and everyone we saw at NIH, to realise like how far there still was to go in terms of genetic research. How it wasn't also that uncommon to be undiagnosed in the rare disease community. I would say that being undiagnosed sort of became part of our identity. And it's, you know, it was something that, you know, you had to explain to like insurance companies and to his school, and it became part of our advocacy around him. Because without being able to say oh, it's this specific thing and if it was someone who hadn't met Lars before, trying to explain to them that, you know, yeah, within the range of this community you can be undiagnosed, and they just haven't found it yet, but I promise you there is something going on here. And I'd say the other thing too without a diagnosis you have no prognosis, right? And so, trying to figure out what the future would look like. Also, family planning. We waited 5 and a half years before we had another child and, you know, it was certainly an anxiety ridden decision. Ultimately after seeing as many specialists as we possibly could, we still were left with the same answer of well, we just don't really know if it will happen again. So, that was a big decision to make. But again, it just kind of became part of our identity and something that you did eventually accept. But I would say in my experience I feel like the acceptance part also of Lars' disabilities perhaps took me a little bit longer. Because again, I didn't have a prognosis, so I didn't exactly know what we were dealing with. Only as he has become older and, you know, you're sort of getting a better sense of what his abilities might be than being able to understand, okay, this is what I'm dealing with. I need to accept that and do what I can to care for him and our family in the best way that we can. Naimah: Thanks so much for sharing that, Lindsay. I feel like you've touched on a lot of really, you know, a lot of complications and difficulties for your family. Especially, you know, with regards to keeping hopeful and things about the prognosis as well, I'm sure it was really difficult. You've mentioned that Lars was able to be diagnosed recently due to recent research efforts. So, Sarah, I wonder if you can tell us a bit more about these and what the findings have meant for patients with neurodevelopmental conditions. Sarah: Yes. So, I think we know that there are lots of families that are in Lindsay and Lars' position where they know that there is almost certainly an underlying genetic condition, and it just hasn't been found yet. And so, I think we know that lots of researchers are working really hard to try and find those causes. I think over time we know that as time goes on and research goes on, we'll find more of these new genetic causes for neurodevelopmental conditions. I think particularly as we start to look at regions of the genome that we haven't looked at so much so far. But I think one of the things that's really extraordinary about this one is that actually it turns out to be much more common than we might have expected, for one of these new conditions that we haven't found before. But I think it's about one in 200 of those undiagnosed children with neurodevelopmental conditions, have this diagnosis so that's not a small number. That's not a rare finding at all actually, that's much more common than we could ever have anticipated. But I think one of the things that we do know is that as we look further and deeper into that genomic sequence, so, we've started off looking at the bits of the sequence that are genes that code for proteins. This changes in a gene that actually doesn't code for protein, so it's less obvious that it would be important but clearly it is important in development because we know when it has a spelling mistake in it, it causes this neurodevelopmental condition. But there will be as researchers look more and more at these kinds of genes, and also the other part of the genome that is not genes at all, we'll find out more and more the underlying genetic causes of these neurodevelopmental conditions. I think it's also really important to stress why this is so important to find these genetic changes and it's because families really need a diagnosis. Lindsay talked quite eloquently and a lot about that knowing something was off and really wanting to know the reason why. Getting these diagnoses might change care management or treatment, but actually really importantly it just gives an answer to families who have often been looking for an answer for a really long time. Naimah: I just wanted to go back to the point that Sarah made that actually this genetic change is relatively common. Emma, I wondered if you could tell us a bit more about maybe why it took us so long to discover it? Emma: That's an interesting question actually. I suppose the sort of slightly simplified answer to that question is we haven't been able to sequence the whole of a person's genetic information for that long. And so, children like Lars would have had, as Lindsay described lots and lots of genetic tests up until they had a whole genome sequencing which is what Sarah was talking about. The types of tests that we had up until the whole genome sequencing wouldn't have allowed us to look at that bit of the genetic code where this RNU4-2 gene can be found. So, we can only really find that using whole genome sequencing. So, before that existed, we wouldn't have been able to find this cause of developmental condition. Naimah: Okay, thanks Emma. Naimah: Now we're going to hear from one of the two research groups who are responsible for these research findings. First of all, let's hear from Nicky Whiffin. (Clip - Nicky Whiffin) Naimah: How were the findings possible using the Genomics England dataset? Nicky: So, most previous studies have only looked at genetic variants that, in genes that make proteins, but only a subset of our genes actually do makes proteins. The Genomics England dataset we have sequencing information on the entire genome, not just on these protein coding genes and that means we can also look at variants in other genes. So, those that make molecules other than proteins. And RNU4-2 for example, makes an RNA molecule. Naimah: These findings translated to direct patient benefit for patients like Lars who were able to receive support from Unique. How does this demonstrate the value of the dataset? Nicky: Yes. So, it was incredible that we could find so many patients with RNU4-2 variants so quickly. This was enabled by access to Genomics England data but also to other large sequencing datasets around the world. So, we worked with people in the US, in Australia and also in mainland Europe. These large datasets enabled us to spot consistent patterns in the data and by looking across multiple datasets we can also make sure that our findings are robust. When we realised how significant this was and how many families would be impacted, we very quickly contacted Sarah at Unique to see if we could direct patients to them for support. (End of clip) Emma: There's one thing I wanted to raise. It's important to recognise the way that was discovered was through the National Genomic Research Library that Genomics England hosts. To highlight the value of that, and the value of having this centralised resource where families have been kind enough really to allow their data to be shared with some limited clinical information that allowed these researchers to be able to pull this out. And I think it highlights the power of the National Health Service in that we were able to create such a resource. It's really quite astounding that we've found such a common cause of a rare genetic condition, and it wouldn't have happened in the same timescale or in this way without that resource. And then to just say that as Sarah talked about the fact that we've been able to get that information out there, also the researchers were able to get out there and contact the NIH and all of these other programmes worldwide. In Australia, America, everywhere in the world and quickly identify new patients who had this condition and get those diagnoses out really rapidly to people. But all that came from that power of sharing data and being able to have that all in one place and making it accessible to very clever people who could do this work and find these answers. It's so important for families like Lindsay's, and all the families in England and around the world that have got these answers. So, I guess it's a big plug for the value of data sharing and having a secure place where people feel that it's trusted and safe, that enables these diagnoses to be made. Lindsay: If I could just echo that, we're so grateful that that exists in the UK. Just acknowledging like the privilege here that we have had to be able to, I mean for our family in the US, that we've been able to, you know, get ourselves into the NIH study and into the study at Children's National. That takes a lot of work. I feel like not everybody has that opportunity to be able to spend the time to do these applications and to go to all the appointments and get the testing done and have the insurance to cover it. So, very grateful that the system exists in a way in the UK that made this sort of research possible. I just hope that that can be replicated in other places, and also to what Emma was saying earlier, come up with a lower cost test as well for this to further the growth of the community and of course then the corresponding research. Sarah: I think firstly we have to sort of thank all of those families that took part and do share their data, because I think it's not always clear why you might want to do that as a family. I think this is really a powerful example of the benefit of that. I also think the data sharing goes one stage further. So, it's partly about getting the diagnosis, but the data sharing going forward about how this condition impacts families, both clinically and sort of day to day lived experience, is how we'll be able to learn more about these conditions. And so, when families get this diagnosis next week or next year, not only will they get a diagnosis, but they'll get a really good idea about what the condition is and how it might impact their child. Naimah: And Lindsay, coming back to you. So, we've talked about, you know, what it meant for your family before the diagnosis, but what has it meant to have a diagnosis and how did you feel? And what happened whenever you received the diagnosis? Lindsay: Sure. Lars was again part of the NIH Undiagnosed Diseases Research study. So, once you attend this programme and if you are not diagnosed like at the end of your stay, they keep your details on file and you're part of this database at the NIH Undiagnosed Diseases Programme. So, if you're undiagnosed after your sort of week-long work up, your samples stay within the research programme. We were also part of a research programme at Children's National Medical Centre, the Rare Disease Institute. So, our samples were sort of on file there in their database as well. And so, at the end of March I was really quite shocked to receive a call from our long time and trusted geneticist at Children's National that they had found a diagnosis. It was quite emotional. I really kind of didn't believe it. I just kept asking, you know, ‘Are you sure? Is this it?' you know, ‘How confident are we?' Because I think in my head, I sort of always thought that we would eventually find a diagnosis, but I thought that Lars would be, you know, a 30- or 40-year-old adult. I thought it would be decades from now. Like I felt like for whatever reason we had to wait decades for the science to sort of catch up to him. So, we were very, very grateful. It felt very validating, I guess. I had always kind of had this intuition feeling that we were sort of missing something and it's more that the science just hadn't quite caught up yet. But, you know, it was validating to know that okay, Lars is not the only person in the entire world with this, it is something that is relatively common in fact within the rare disease community. That is also very exciting to me personally because I'm hopeful that that will lead more researchers to be interesting in this, given how, quote on quote, common it is. I've sort of been describing it as like a mass diagnosis event but also more so this feeling that like we've been on this deserted island for eight years and now all of a sudden, you're sort of like looking around through the branches of the trees. It's like, wait a minute, there are other people on this island ad in this case, there's actually a lot more people on this island. Yeah, it's very exciting, it's validating. It gives us a lot of hope. And, you know, it has been quite emotional too and also a bit of an identity shift. Because I spoke earlier about how like being undiagnosed had become quite a big part of our identity. So, now that's kind of shifting a little bit that we have this new diagnosis and are part of a new community. But yeah, we're just very grateful that the research had continued. And, you know, I think sometimes you sort of have this feeling of okay, our files are up on a shelf somewhere, you know, collecting dust and are people really looking at them? And actually, it turns out that the research was ongoing and yeah, we're just very grateful for that. Naimah: Thanks so much for sharing, Lindsay. It sounds like it's been a real rollercoaster of emotions for your family and I'm glad to hear that, you know, you've got some hope now that you've got a diagnosis as well. So, moving onto the next question. Emma, I wanted to ask you then, how will these findings improve clinical diagnostic services for those for neurodevelopmental conditions? Emma: So, you asked me earlier about why it had taken so long to find this particular cause of neurodevelopmental condition, and I gave you a relatively simple answer. The reality is one of the other reasons is that almost eight out of ten children and adults who have RNU4-2 related neurodevelopmental condition have exactly the same single letter spelling change in that gene. So, actually that in itself means that when researchers are looking at that information, they might think that it's actually a mistake. Because we know that when we sequence genetic information, we can see mistakes in that sequencing information that are just because the machine has, and the way that we process that data, it's not perfect. So, sometimes we find these little mistakes and they're not actually the cause of a person's problems, they're just what we call an artefact or an issue with the way that that happens. So, that is part of the reason for why it was tricky for us to know whether this was, or rather the researchers to know whether this was or was not the cause of this particular condition. But that in itself is quite helpful when we think about how we might identify more people who have this going forwards. Because unlike in Lars' case where we didn't know what the cause was and so we were still searching, and we didn't know where to look in the billions of letters that make up the genetic code to find that answer, we now know that this is really very common. It's unbelievably common. I think we didn't think we would be finding a cause of a rare genetic condition that was this commonly occurring at this stage. But the fact that it's just a single, it's commonly this one single change in the gene means that we can set up pretty cheap diagnostic testing. Which means that if you were somewhere where you wouldn't necessarily have access to whole genome sequencing, or a more comprehensive testing in that way, we could still be able to pick up this condition. And it's common enough that even if you didn't necessarily recognise that a person had it, you could still have this as part of your diagnostic tool kit for patients who have a neurodevelopmental condition. It's common enough that just doing a very simple test that could be done in any diagnostic lab anywhere in the world, you would be able to identify the majority of people who have this. Naimah: Now let's hear from the other research group who are responsible for these findings. Here is Dr Andrew Mumford. (Clip - Dr Andrew Mumford) Naimah: Why are these research findings significant? Andrew: It offers genetic diagnosis not just for a handful of families but potentially for many hundreds of families, who we all know have been searching often for many, many years for a genetic diagnosis. But actually, there are other gains from understanding how this gene causes neurodevelopmental disorder. We know that there's GRNU4-2 in codes, not a protein actually, but a small nuclear RNA which is unusual for rare, inherited disorders. It's a component of a very complicated molecule called the spliceosome which in turn regulates how thousands of other genes are regulated, how they're made into proteins. So, fundamentally this discovery tells us a lot about the biology of how the spliceosome works. We already know that some other components of the spliceosome can go wrong, and result in diseases like neurodevelopmental disorders. This gives us an extra insight and actually opens the door to, I hope, a whole load of more discoveries of genetic diagnosis possible from other components of this complicated molecule. Naimah: Your research group used a mathematical modelling approach. Can you tell me a bit about this, and what this means for other rare conditions, Andrew? Andrew: So, identifying relationships between changes in individual genes and different kinds of rare, inherited disease is notoriously difficult because of the volume of data that's involved and the need to be absolutely certain that observed genetic changes are actually the cause of different rare, inherited disease. So, applying statistics to that kind of problem isn't new. But what my collaboration group have achieved here, is to develop, actually developed some years ago a completely new approach to applying statistics to genetic data. We call that BeviMed and we've been working for many years on the genes in code that make individual proteins. Most rare disorders are caused by genetic changes in genes that make proteins. What this discovery comes from is actually we've applied the BeviMed statistical technique to genes that don't make proteins, they're non-coding genes. For example, genes that make small nuclear RNA, it's just like RNU4-2. What's unusual about the BeviMed approach is that it's very sensitive to detecting links between genetic changes and rare diseases, and it can detect statistical associations really driven by very, very small numbers of families. So, we apply it to datasets like the 100,00 Genomes dataset and identify associations using statistics that have got a very high probability of association. Other members of the team then seek to corroborate that finding by looking at if we can see the association in other datasets, and we certainly achieve that with RNU4-2. But also, assessing biological plausibility by investigating what we understand already about in this case, a small nuclear RNA, and how it can possibly result in a disease. And we normally try and employ other independent evidence such as experimental investigation. Or going back to our families and asking for additional data to help really test this sort of theory that changes in this particular gene have resulted in a problem with neurodevelopment. (End of clip) Naimah: Emma, are there any other ways that we can identify these conditions based on their clinical presentation? Emma: So, Lindsay and I were talking with you just yesterday, wasn't it? And I asked Lindsay about what sorts of things Lars had in common with other children and adults who have been diagnosed with this condition? I actually think Lindsay probably gives a better summary than I would, so I might ask you to maybe repeat what you said to me yesterday. But the bit of it that really stood out to me was when you said to us that a lot of parents have said, ‘I'm not sure how we weren't all put together in the first place because you notice so many things that were in common.' So, maybe if you can give that summary and then I can translate that back into medical terms, if that's okay Lindsay. Lindsay: Sure, of course. Yeah, it been again, kind of mind blowing, some of the similarities. Especially as we've exchanged pictures and such, and baby pictures especially where some of the children like look like siblings. So, definitely some similarities in facial features, you know, everyone seems to experience some of the slow growth, so a short stature or quite skinny. There's feeding issues also that seem to be quite common. Also, you know, things like the global developmental delays, that's certainly across the board and histories of seizures, that's also quite common. Some people have experienced also some, like, bone density issues, that's not something that we've experienced so far, but that also seems to be quite common. But then also, behaviourally, there's a lot of similarities which has been, I think, quite exciting to a lot of us because you've always thought okay, so this is just my child. And of course, some of that is true but it's also interesting to find out some of these other things that are, you know, are quite similar. So, a lot of people have mentioned their child having, like, an interesting sense of humour. Kind of like a very slapstick sense of humour which is quite interesting. Or everyone seems to love water, everybody loves swimming pools and bathtime, and all of that. Lars loves a windy day. Something about the wind, he just loves it and plane noises and things like that have also come up with other people. So, yeah, it's been really interesting and cool to see. Emma: So, I guess Lindsay's sort of very beautifully summed up what is written in the research publication. So, there's only two research publications so far on this condition, it's all really new. And I am definitely not claim to be a clinical expert on this condition, and I don't think there are any yet. It will take people time to see lots of children and adults who have this particular condition. But ultimately what Lindsay summarised was the common clinical features that have been described by parents. In my job as a clinical genetics doctor, part of what we look at is a person's appearance. So, Lindsay described the photographs of children particularly when they were little, looked very similar. In the photographs that I've seen, I would agree with that. And so obviously those children look like their mum and dad, but they have other features that are in common. They have a characteristic appearance and that helps doctors like me to have an idea as to whether a child or an adult might have a particular condition. Then put together with the sorts of information that Lindsay gave us around the low tone, so being a little bit floppier particularly when they're little. The slow growth and growth problems, problems with eating, also with seizures. Those are all common things that were pulled out of both of the two research publications on this condition and putting that all together into one picture helps doctors to have an idea whether somebody may have a particular condition. That would help us in this case to potentially request that simple test I was talking about, if maybe we were practicing in a part of the world where we wouldn't have the resources that we thankfully do have in the United Kingdom, and in the USA. Naimah: So, Sarah, just coming to you next. How does this research spread awareness and help other patients with these conditions? Sarah: So, I think one of the things that's been really great about research now is that we are able to, you know, social media and things like that mean that we can spread this information really quickly across the world basically. I think what that does is that as well as helping bring people together that they've got this diagnosis, what it does is I think it provides hope for all of those people that Lindsay was talking about at the beginning who don't have a diagnosis. So, that piece around people are still looking, the researchers are working hard and that even if you don't have a diagnosis today you might get one in the future. Lindsay talked about your sample being dusty and not being looked at. I think it gives lots of families, not just those that get this diagnosis but all of those that haven't got a diagnosis, hope, that hopefully in the future they will get a diagnosis. I think one of the things we really hope will come out of diagnoses like this is that we will then be able to build up more of that picture about how families are affected. So, that we can give families more information about not only how their child is affected but how they might be affected in the future. That prognosis information that Linsday said is really missing when you don't have a diagnosis. And I think the other thing that hopefully is the next stage in this journey with this discovery is that those two science publications that Emma talked about, what we will want to do here at Unique working with the researchers and those families that have got a diagnosis, is to produce a patient family friendly information leaflet about this condition. One of the things we know is really important about those patient leaflets is including the photos. Because as both Emma and Lindsay have said that idea that they have facial features in common. And so, if you look at a leaflet and you can recognise your child in it, and you can see others that look like it, that can be a really sort of quite heartwarming experience in what often is a lonely experience with a rare condition. Naimah: And I think kind of on that point about it being a lonely experience, I wondered Lindsay if you could talk a bit more if this research has allowed you to connect with other parents and families who have received a diagnosis, and what impact that's had on your family? Lindsay: Yeah. I mean, and I think everything that Sarah has said was spot on. It's wonderful to have resources like Unique to connect families and have those diagnoses on the platform, so other clinicians can look for it and sort of grow this group. I think that has definitely been the highlight of getting this diagnosis at this stage, right. Because there's not much more you can do with it, with someone so brand new so being able to connect with the other families has been wonderful. One amazing mum who with this diagnosis set up a Facebook group, RNU4-2 Family Connect. And, you know, it's just been amazing to see people from all over the world joining this as they receive this diagnosis, you know, sharing their stories. We've spent countless hours on the weekends over the past couple of months on Zoom calls with total strangers, but just you find that you can just talk for hours and hours because you have so much in common. It's great to see what has worked well for other families and, you know, what has not worked. Sharing resources, just kind of all learning together. Also seeing the spectrum of this diagnosis, I think most genetic disorders have a spectrum and this seems to be the same here. So, that's been very interesting. And of course, our son is 8, Lars is 8. There's now a 33-year-old and a 29-year-old in the Facebook group. Speaking for me personally it's just amazing to see them and like it's very cool to see where they're at. That sort of helps you answer some of those questions about that before were quite unknown when you were thinking about the future. Obviously, everybody's development whether you have a genetic disorder or not, it is going to be what it's going to be, and everybody is going to do their own thing. But being able to see what a path might look like is just so helpful. And, you know, we all want community and connection, and so this has been really, really great to have that now. Sarah: I don't think there's much more that I can add because Lindsay articulated so well. But it's really heartwarming for us to hear the benefits of those connections because that's really why Unique and other support groups exist. Is to provide, partly to provide information, but I think predominantly to put families in touch with other families so that they can find a new home and connect and share experiences. And, you know, stop feeling as alone as they might have done before. Naimah: Okay, we'll wrap up there. Thank you to our guests, Lindsay Pearce, Sarah Wynn and Emma Baple for joining me today as we discussed the research findings which found a genetic change in the RNU4-2 gene which has been linked to neurodevelopmental conditions. If you'd like to hear more like this, please subscribe to Behind the Genes on your favourite podcast app. Thank you for listening. I've been your host and producer, Naimah Callachand, and this podcast was edited by Bill Griffin of Ventoux Digital.

In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast, we venture into the 'P' of People as part of our ongoing exploration of the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. Join me in a conversation with Cara Steinmann, the visionary founder of the Ravel Collective and host of the Ravel Radio podcast. Together, we delve into the art of authentic networking, emphasizing the importance of core values, unconventional approaches on LinkedIn, and the profound impact of empathy on your business relationships. Discover new insights that could transform the way you approach human connections and meaningful networking. In this episode, Cara and I discuss: Her experience with traditional networking and how she redefined it How to bring our core values to our networking How Cara uses LinkedIn to create connections, but not with a lead-generation mindset Networking for introverts How to be intentional when networking The importance of quality over quantity And so much more Ep 174 [00:00:00] Sarah: Hi, Cara. So nice to meet. Hi, you. [00:00:04] Cara: Good to see you, Sarah. How's it going? I'm good, thank you. [00:00:08] Sarah: Thanks for having me. Yeah, I really look forward to this conversation with you. I was on your podcast recently and we really [00:00:15] Cara: we're [00:00:16] Sarah: aligned, so I'm glad we have you on the humane part, marketing podcast, and talking about networking. [00:00:23] Right? So that's kind of your. Specialty and, uh, yeah, I want to just go dive right in. So tell me how did you come to make networking part of your specialty? And how did you build a community around networking? Why is networking so important to [00:00:45] Cara: you? It was kind of an accident because I don't really think of myself as a networking person and I think a lot of people probably feel that way because there's this connotation around networking that it's sort of like very businessy and very like you imagine yourself in a [00:01:00] room with very professional people and you're handing out business cards and you're talking about things that are very business related, but I think in my life, uh, in my career, I've sort of acted more as just a connector. [00:01:12] I think of it as connecting with people and building relationships. And that's usually not on a grand scale. It's one person at a time, usually in a one to one conversation. And it doesn't feel like what you would imagine networking to be. So I think maybe a little shift in the way we think about networking can help a lot of us who don't like that whole, you know, big corporate business vibe and really care more about. [00:01:36] One to one relationships and what goes on beyond the business. Yeah. [00:01:40] Sarah: That's already such a, a shift when you say relationship building versus networking. Mm-hmm. has that term work in it. Right. And so it feels like I'm the one going into this crowd and I have to work my way through it. Like, and, and yeah. [00:01:58] Collect the business cards [00:02:00] and you know, it's kind of like, yeah. [00:02:01] Cara: That, and I think. Be I think expanding our understanding of network be working beyond or even relationship building beyond thinking of who we are going to build relationships with to thinking about who we can connect so they can build relationships, because then you expand your network exponentially because then they also. [00:02:23] They also consider you part of their and both of you're part of both of their network. And then they're connecting. And then when they meet new people, they want to introduce you. So it's kind of kind of like weaving a web of connection with people that you genuinely want to talk to and spend time with and respect. [00:02:37] Sarah: It's funny you guys use that term weaving because in our community, uh, we have. One of the calls that is kind of like a networking call, um, but we actually call it net weaving. So I love that it's this idea of, yeah, we're together and we're getting to know one another, but we're weaving, uh, these [00:03:00] relationships. [00:03:00] Cara: And yeah, I love that. Yeah, we unravel. We have connection calls that are just to talk about whatever we want to talk about and connect. We had one yesterday and a bunch of us were on there just talking about what vacations we're taking and a little bit about business and what we're looking at challenges right now. [00:03:14] And then we have a small, small business mastermind where we all break off and then we have a happy hour once a month. And otherwise we're just hanging out in the community, getting to know each other and asking business related questions and personal questions. And, you know, it's about, I think it's a little bit deeper than just. [00:03:30] What do you do and who do you do it for? Like the pitch does, the elevator pitch doesn't matter so much when you know somebody. Yeah. [00:03:38] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. You really addressed something there. It's this superficiality that I always hated at networking events that I felt like people were only listening to themselves talk and preparing what they're going to say next. [00:03:55] Listening to me and, you know, really having a conversation. And then [00:04:00] of course you add, you know, this was prior to COVID you add kind of like, you know, surrounding noise to it and you don't really hear one another and it was just [00:04:10] like [00:04:10] Cara: a nightmare. It is. It's a nightmare prior to COVID. I, I always loathed. [00:04:17] In person networking events, conferences and things like that, because it just, I knew I was going to end up in situations talking to people who really weren't necessarily a very strategic fit for like a strategic partner or referral partner, and that they would, like you said, just be waiting for their opportunity to say what they needed to say about their business and having a lot of surface level conversations because I think a lot of business culture requires you to leave the personal at home. [00:04:41] And I don't want to do that. I think we bring ourselves to our work and to our business, our core values, the way we operate. And I would rather, like we were talking about introverts before we hit record. Right. And I don't really consider myself an introvert, but when it comes to those kinds of things, I really act like one, because I would much rather have an [00:05:00] intimate conversation about things that matter than talk about, you know, What you do, what you do for people, because that's gonna, if you're an entrepreneur, you're going to find that out. [00:05:08] Anyway, we can't help but talk about that. Right. [00:05:10] Sarah: Yeah, yeah, no, it's so true. It's these deeper, meaningful connections and conversations and actually. Also pre COVID, um, there was this, uh, movement on, on LinkedIn, uh, called the LinkedIn local events. Yeah. And so me who always hated networking all of the sudden, I was like, well, these events kind of had a different tone because they, they came with topics and they were really open to this idea of. [00:05:40] Bring yourself to the conversation, bring the human side to the conversation. And so I actually put my hand up together with, um, another, uh, local friend here. And we started creating these LinkedIn local networking events. And, and we created themes, you know, where people would pick [00:06:00] cards and have really deep conversations and people loved it, people were like, Oh, this. [00:06:05] So different. Right. And then every now and then the person would walk in and you could tell, you know, they were like business suit and they probably had their stack of business cards and they're like, what is this? Why [00:06:17] Cara: are people doing here? It's funny. Cause I had, I used to host a speed networking event in Ravel and, um. [00:06:24] I actually, I learned this from a coaching program that I was in and they would do a lot of like more personal questions. And so I love that we only did it once a month and I was like, we need to do this more often. And so the challenge was calling it speed networking because what we actually do when you get there is break up into small little breakout rooms. [00:06:40] And I would. I would offer questions or topic starters, like what's the weirdest thing in your fridge right now? Like things that don't have anything to do with business, but you end up deciding kind of who you really mesh with and who you want to take that relationship further with and really get to know about them and their business and how you can support one another. [00:06:57] Cause you don't really want to support people you don't [00:07:00] care about. Right. So that's kind of the first step, I think, is deciding who you want to care about. Right. [00:07:05] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Before you also addressed core values. So, so huge. What do you think are the, you know, the core, or I guess there's two questions. What are the core values that we should bring to networking and why do they [00:07:21] Cara: matter so much? [00:07:23] I think we should bring our own core values to networking because the truth is we are all I like to think of them as core drivers because I think corporate culture has kind of ruined the term core values for us. We think of the little poster on the wall that doesn't really mean anything. But if you really get into your core drivers, what it means is it's what motivates you. [00:07:40] It's what drives your behavior. So my core values are freedom, authenticity and connection. And I notice when I'm in a funk or when I'm out of sorts, it's because something is going against my core values. So if you're going to network, I think you should network with people ideally who share your core values. [00:07:58] And then you'll [00:08:00] naturally network in a very comfortable way. Like when I started Ravel, I very intentionally invited, I seeded the community with women who I knew shared at least one of my core values, knowing that birds of a feather flock together. And so it worked really well because now we're up around a hundred women and anyone who's referred someone has always been an amazing fit. [00:08:18] I have to do very little background on the applicants now because if I know Maggie int introduced someone else to the group, I know Maggie and I know she's not going to introduce somebody to the group who's not a good fit because her core values align really well with mine. Yeah. So I think that makes it just so much easier to predict how someone's going to behave and what you can expect from them. [00:08:40] Sarah: Yeah, and it really defines the community, [00:08:42] Cara: right? Yeah, it makes it easier to hold that community in a shape, like my goal when I started Ravel was to create a community, just create a space and hold it in a shape, such that people would feel comfortable and vulnerable enough to connect with one another and really get to know each other. [00:08:58] And by inviting the. [00:09:00] Types of people who would be strategically aligned to be most likely to refer one another, like complimentary service providers. They're all B2B service entrepreneurs and they're women. So they have a lot in common and, you know, financial professionals who serve agencies can network with coaches who serve agencies. [00:09:17] And because they share core values, they're going to probably get along pretty well. And it makes it easy to build that kind of rapport that they need to. Want to connect with one another and see what's up in their business and say, Hey, you should talk to so and so. So it's like kind of building relationships with like the happy by product that you get referrals in business works really well. [00:09:36] Yeah. [00:09:37] Sarah: That makes a lot of sense. Usually we hear this this idea of quality over quantity. Um, you just mentioned your communities about 100 people. Um, so, so what do you think about quality over quantity in terms of the networking? Is it a, is it a numbers game or is [00:10:00] it a quality game or is it something [00:10:01] Cara: in between? [00:10:02] I think it's quality over quantity, 100%. And I think it's evolving, honestly, constantly, right? Like, so if you're, cause your business evolves, maybe you shift who you serve or how you serve that person. Um, and so maybe you have a handful of really great referral partners and. you shift your business a little bit. [00:10:21] You might have to, some of those referral partners, it might not be as strategically aligned anymore. And maybe they stay, you stay friends, but you might start looking around for different strategic partners who might be more well aligned, but it's not like you have to shift your whole network. You just start networking with a few different people and start figuring out who, who fits with you. [00:10:38] Um, and I think like a hundred is a lot of women. Like, I don't, I don't intimately know every member of the community anymore. When it was like 20 women, it was like, It was really easy. And, but what we've done is we've separated into smaller groups too. So we have a Slack channel where we have different topics. [00:10:55] We have rabble travel, and we have ADHD all day and moms. And [00:11:00] so we have these different things that we care about. And the women who gravitate to those channels tend to get to know each other well enough that. Even if they're not strategically aligned to refer one another as well as some others would be, they kind of cross pollinate between the community, the micro communities within the chant, within the community. [00:11:17] And then they say, Oh, you know who you should get to know. So there's a lot of paying it forward, introducing people to other people. That is such a, an underrated gift that you can give someone is to say, I think I know somebody who you need to know. Who would, you'd benefit from knowing each other. I mean, making a connection between two people who you think would get along is such a gift. [00:11:38] Yeah. [00:11:39] Sarah: Yeah. So true. Um, you mentioned a few times this word strategic, and I guess it's for you, it's like, well, there's a strategy to networking because again, as an introvert, This idea of networking can sometimes feel so overwhelming because we think, well, does that mean I have to network with [00:12:00] just anybody, you know, so it's like, Oh my God, I don't have the time to network with just anybody. [00:12:07] So, so what, what is a good strategy, um, that feels, you know, empathic and yet very strategic. Um, and I guess time conscious as well. [00:12:20] Cara: Yeah. Yeah. I think. Um, that's probably how most people think of it is just like, it's very overwhelming. You have to make a lot of people think there's a list you have to make and you have to contact X number of people a day. [00:12:31] And that feels very impersonal and kind of, um, like required, which doesn't feel good for a lot of people. Um, I've approached it differently. Like I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn. Um, just for networking, though, I don't spend a lot of time scrolling on LinkedIn, but if I find somebody offline, say I'm listening to a podcast or reading a book or find somebody's website online while I'm Googling or going down a rabbit hole of some kind, and I feel like they are strategically aligned with my business, meaning either they're, uh, [00:13:00] Complimentary service provider. [00:13:00] So we serve the same client, but we do different things, or we are a shoulder niche peer, meaning that we do different things or do we do the same sort of thing, but for different clients. So maybe I serve, um, the financial industry and they serve, um, like agencies or something like that. And so we can refer one another because we don't really serve the same ideal client, and this requires knowing what you want and what you're good at. [00:13:24] I don't think we are all suited to do, you know, the same thing. We're, we're all so different. I think it also, I think it's a successful networking in this way requires that you don't believe in competition. We're all so different. There's so much, so many factors that we can own as, you know, authentic to who we are that maybe somebody else doesn't want to own. [00:13:45] And if we know ourselves really well, we can understand what we do best and who we are best suited to serve. And then there's just no way that somebody else is going to bring exactly the same thing to the table that we are. So. We have to kind of get rid of that idea first. And then we're free to [00:14:00] network with people who look like they do something similar to what we do, but probably don't do exactly what we do or for the same person. [00:14:07] Um, and then you can also look for people who are, um, centers of influence coaches for, if you serve entrepreneurs, maybe you're wanting to network with coaches who serve entrepreneurs, and maybe you're a done for you service provider or something like that. So they're in a position to refer you there. [00:14:24] The people you're looking for to network with are the ones who are most likely to be in a position to refer you. So not somebody who's working in a totally different industry with clients that aren't even related to you. Um, but I don't, I don't think you have to go like search for them. I think you can listen to podcasts that are interesting to you and just start taking note of. [00:14:47] Someone who's interesting to you, who you think you might like and say, is that person in a position to refer me perhaps, and then you can just reach out to that person individually. I usually on LinkedIn because it's the easiest place to get [00:15:00] really connected with somebody. Yeah, [00:15:03] Sarah: so the idea is really to find referral partners. [00:15:07] and connect with them. [00:15:09] Cara: Yeah. And to be open about it and say, Hey, I think we have a lot in common. I think we might benefit from knowing each other. Um, I like you. I like what you're doing. Let's connect and just say hi. Mm-hmm. . [00:15:20] Sarah: Yeah. Do you then stop at the, you know, first conversation or how do you. Because it, you know, we always say in networking, you have to stay top of mind. [00:15:31] So how do you stay top of mind with this [00:15:33] Cara: person then? I don't think everyone is going to stay top of mind all the time, right? Like, you're gonna, you're gonna meet a few people who you really click with. And a few people who you don't really click with. One of the reasons that I started Ravel was because it is hard to stay top of mind when we're all busy and we're all running around doing all our stuff all day long. [00:15:52] And I don't, I'm not the kind of person, let's do, we have to do what works for us, right? If you're an organized person and you like lists and you use a [00:16:00] CRM, maybe you can stay top of mind with people in your own strategic way. I can't do that. So I put everybody in a container that I like so that I can stay connected with them in a container. [00:16:12] We, we naturally stay connected because we're having calls or somebody is asking a question and we're learning more about their business that way. And we're commenting and sharing our expertise. And so I think it's about proximity. And then if you're connected with them on LinkedIn and you're following them, you might see them. [00:16:26] It's like, The top of mind thing I think is more about the mere exposure effect than, than the top, than staying top of mind. It's just staying in front of someone who you want to, to stay connected with. And you can do that in a lot of different ways just by commenting on their stuff on LinkedIn. They see you, you learn a little bit more maybe about what they do and it don't think it has to take a long time. [00:16:46] It can take five, 10 minutes to, to go on. And in the case of LinkedIn, I would say like a lot of people suggest. That you'd be connected to a ton of people and follow a ton of people. But I find that really overwhelming. So [00:17:00] I only follow and want to be connected with the people that I really want to stay connected with because then my feed isn't really overwhelming and I can just, I can see the people that I want to stay in touch with and I can comment and like, and stay. [00:17:12] In front of them. And then they remember me. [00:17:15] Sarah: Yeah. So, so, so does that mean that you actually, you know, hide some of the updates of people who you don't want to see anymore, just so not, not to. [00:17:26] Cara: I just unfollow them or disconnect. I am a little bit ruthless that way because it's, we only have so much time and I don't really want to be connected with people that don't align with me really, really well. [00:17:36] So, you know, when I. I've been on LinkedIn for a long, long time, but my, my career has evolved. You know, if the past 15 years I'm doing very different things than I was in the very beginning. And so I, when I decided to reinvest in LinkedIn as a way to connect with people, I went in and I, I had, you know, thousands of connections and I got rid of all but 400 and some odd. [00:17:57] Because it was like, if I don't want to have coffee with this [00:18:00] person, I don't need to be on LinkedIn with them. And perhaps that's different if you're not an entrepreneur and you're trying to get a job. I don't know about that, but for my situation where I want to spend time connecting and networking with people who care about the same things I care about. [00:18:18] That means there's a lot of people I don't need to connect with. And I don't want to waste my time looking at their stuff. if I don't care about it. Right. And they don't know, so it's not mean or anything. [00:18:33] Sarah: Um, yeah, it's really interesting to, to see how, you know, usually we always hear, Oh, use LinkedIn for lead generation, right? [00:18:43] Yeah, that's not how you're looking at it. You're like, well, I, Only want the people I care about. And so they, yes, they might be potential clients or they're, you know, some other level of connection or [00:18:59] [00:19:00] network. [00:19:00] Cara: That's how you. I think that's a giant, you're speaking to something that's really important that I think a lot of people miss. [00:19:05] It's a giant mistake to go into like a community or a networking container and think you're going to sell to the people in that container. You're the benefit of being in a container with a hundred women. Is the connection to the 150 other people they know that they might be able to connect you with. [00:19:24] And yes, we buy from each other. I've purchased products and services from tons of the women inside Ravel and we buy stuff. We hire each other all the time, but it's not because we're sharing our offers and trying to convince each other to buy from us. It's because we happen to know each other really well, and we have a problem and we know that person can solve it. [00:19:42] But most of the time we're introducing someone. To another person, like I'll run. I talked to a friend of mine, or I go to an event or something, and I hear somebody has a problem. And I will say, I know somebody you should talk to. Let me connect you with so and so because I know what she does. And I like her and I know she'll do a good job. [00:19:59] Right. [00:20:00] So we're, we're building the relationships. We're not selling to people and LinkedIn is You know, a breeding ground for people doing lead gen on LinkedIn. We should be doing strategic networking. [00:20:11] Sarah: Yeah, I think that that's really the, the, the difference is not thinking of everybody who is somehow looking like a client just because they, you know, have a human body that, that you think of them as your ideal client. [00:20:29] And especially if you then think of a community where Uh, you know, the minute you bring that kind of energy into a community, the community is basically, yeah, it's destined to [00:20:41] Cara: fail. I've seen it happen in Ravel a couple of times where a couple, where a couple of people have, you know, crossed that line between, Hey guys, here's what I'm doing. [00:20:49] Check it out. Cause we want to share, we want to share what we're doing and we have a space for that, you know, but, um, a couple of people have, you know, gotten a little bit salesy with it. And it's not that they [00:21:00] get slapped down or anything. It's just that nobody responds. Right. It's just not something people are looking for in a community where we're trying to build relationships. [00:21:10] But what we do is we have calls and we connect with one another and we learn what's going on. And then we will often share on another person's behalf. One of our, one of our members, Cara, Cara Hoosier, she's getting ready to publish a book and it's really exciting because she's been through an incredible journey to get where she is. [00:21:25] It's called burnt out to lit up. And it's about. preventing yourself from burning out and what to do when you get there. And she's getting ready to launch this. She's looking for people to help her, you know, do reviews and read her book. And I was super excited for her. So instead of her getting on there and she's saying, Hey guys, look at what I did. [00:21:43] I said, can I share this with the community? Because it's really awesome. And she was like, sure. And so I said, you guys look at this, our member, our fellow friend here. is publishing a book. This is so exciting. Who wants to help her? I know that anybody else in here who is publishing a book would want the community to help them too. [00:21:59] [00:22:00] And so it's a very different message when you lift up another woman, as opposed to saying, look at me. It look at her sounds a lot different than look at me. Sure. So we help each other that way. Yeah. [00:22:12] Sarah: At the same time you as the host. What would you do? And this is not to do with networking, but just as a, you know, fellow community host, what would you do with a member, you know, several times trespasses that kind of unspoken rule that we're not selling in this community? [00:22:34] What would you do? [00:22:36] Cara: We had one instance in two years. In the last two years, we've had one instance where someone really kind of did cross the line. And I wasn't online that morning, but I got a bunch of messages from other community members who were like, Hey, we don't like this. Like we got to do something about this. [00:22:52] Um, and they were upset for me because she was trying to poach a bunch of members into a different community, which I think is fine actually, because [00:23:00] it's, I mean, I don't think poaching is fine, but I think women should have more than one community. They serve different purposes. I. intentionally keep Ravel at a very reasonable price because I want to belong to many communities, and I know that other women do too. [00:23:13] Um, but the way she went about it was really kind of gross. And so I had to respond to that because the community was saying, this feels gross and we don't want to be around this. And so I did ask, I said, we're going to go ahead and Remove you because this is not how we operate in here. I wish you know, but bless and release This might just not be the right place for you Which is important to remember because there are people have different core values people believe different things They operate different ways and just because she doesn't operate the way that we want to operate doesn't mean there's not a place Where that's totally fine for people to do, bless and release. [00:23:46] Um, so it's really more of like the community managing itself. I don't moderate and I don't tell them what they can and can't do. [00:23:54] Sarah: So, yeah, but in a way it's beautiful to have them, you know, kind of [00:24:00] show up and say, Hey, this is not how, this is not how we run here. [00:24:05] Cara: And yeah. And yeah. And that's my whole goal with the community is I don't, I'm not a coach. [00:24:10] I don't. Sell them anything other than the place inside the community, like the space. And so that's what, how I view it is. And I mean, we're kind of getting away from networking into community at this point, but I view it as myself just holding space in a particular shape. And that's my job is to make sure this play, this space is safe and a good place for people to be vulnerable and build relationships. [00:24:31] And if they can't do that, I'm not doing my job. So it has to be a safe space online. Yeah, yeah, [00:24:39] Sarah: that's beautiful. Yeah, we kind of meshed community with networking, but that's what [00:24:45] Cara: you're, that's what it is, right? Yeah, it, if when you're networking, you're building community. It just may not have a specific container it lives in. [00:24:54] Sarah: Yeah. And I also think. If we're changing that [00:25:00] term of networking into net weaving, then that's what we're really doing in a community is weaving a web together because the whole definition of a community is people being connected with each other. Not just to you as the host, right? [00:25:17] Cara: Totally. Yeah. And, and I, and this is why I use Slack, but I pay for the analytics. [00:25:23] I could use it for free, but I want to see what's happening behind the scenes, which is valuable because more than 50 percent of the conversations that are happening inside the community are in the DMs. And I know I'm not having that many conversations. There are thousands of conversations happening during the month. [00:25:36] And I know I'm not having that many. So there are a lot of private conversations happening and partnerships. Um, I introduced a couple of gals recently who are now partnering in business and, and they're super excited and doing some really amazing things. And I know that has nothing to do with me, but we're weaving. [00:25:54] These connections, not just for us, but for other people as well. And I think not, you don't even have [00:26:00] to, like, we can think of containers as smaller things, even text threads between two people or three people. Like if I have several people I want to connect with, because we all live locally, we're on a text thread together and the three of us send funny memes to one another. [00:26:12] And it doesn't have to do with business all the time. Yeah, [00:26:16] Sarah: I agree with that. It can also be more fun, right? It [00:26:18] Cara: should be more fun. Don't you think we should have more fun? I need more fun. [00:26:25] Sarah: Um, Yeah, maybe, maybe that's a good way to close with the, with the fun networking. Um, but maybe just also for people who right now, you know, there's so many communities out there yet, yet they're like, well, I don't either, I don't have the funds or I just can't decide which one to join. [00:26:45] So how can you start networking with that community as, or with that community notion without being in a community? What kind of advice would [00:26:55] Cara: you give? Um, I would say, I would say just [00:27:00] start connecting with people you enjoy. I listen to a lot of podcasts and I reach out to people who I think are excellent, either hosts or, um, interviewees, guests. [00:27:10] And I just tell them, I really, I like just start, start connecting directly with people that you admire, or you think have something interesting to say that you align with. Um, because like, there's that thing homophily, we're attracted to things that are similar to what we love or, or who we are. And so we're, they're going to be attracted to you. [00:27:28] If you share something either, I mean, location's really obvious, but beyond that, like core values or a mission or a purpose or something like that, like, I think you and I initially got connected on LinkedIn long, long ago, because I heard your podcast. And I was like, I, you're doing awesome things. We need to be connected. [00:27:45] And like, it didn't go anywhere for a long time. We had a little back and forth on, on LinkedIn, but eventually here we are trading podcast interviews. And so I think being in it for the long game and having conversations in the DMs, not expecting every [00:28:00] conversation to go somewhere, but being open to it going somewhere. [00:28:04] Yeah. [00:28:04] Sarah: And probably also not coming with this expectation that. Everyone you reach out to is gonna open your, their calendar [00:28:13] Cara: to you, you know, like, yeah, like when we connected initially, I was not expecting a one to one call. I, we live across the country, across the world from one another and we're both busy and eventually maybe we connect, but I genuinely just wanted to tell you that I really like what you're doing. [00:28:30] And I think that's people want to hear that it's people are open to hearing that you agree with them and that you like what they're doing. And if that's all it is, you've put some good energy out in the world and you can leave it at that. Right, [00:28:41] Sarah: exactly. It doesn't doesn't have to become a lead generation. [00:28:45] Cara: Yeah, it doesn't have to even become like a really intense networking like relationship there. We're going to have this whole gamut of closeness in our network, right? And we don't have the capacity to be really close. With a bunch of bunch of people like [00:29:00] 510 people, we're going to be really close with. [00:29:02] Um, and if we're all running in roughly the same circles, there's going to be opportunities for collaboration and referrals and those things. So it's a little bit of a leap of faith, but you got to just trust that if you're doing good work and you're helping people and people know you do it, that they're going to tell somebody exactly [00:29:20] Sarah: plant those seeds. [00:29:21] Yes, that's wonderful. Well, do you tell us a bit more about rattle and your community [00:29:28] Cara: and where people can find it? Yeah. The website is ravelcollective. com and it's for women B2B service entrepreneurs. So financial professionals, lots of marketers, content writers, stuff like that. Consultants. We've got some coaches, some, um, coaches for women entrepreneurs, and it's just a networking community, a really casual networking community where we Get to know each other. [00:29:50] A bunch of us are going to Mexico in a month together. I haven't met three of them, but I, and it's not an official event. I just said, Hey, I'm going to go to Mexico for a week and [00:30:00] do some like 2024 business planning. If anybody wants to join me, I've rented this house. And so it's not, you know, we probably won't talk business all the time, but. [00:30:09] It'll be fun. So we're kind of trying to put some of the fun and like person to person relationship back into business so that we can rely on, I don't know, our, our relationships to sustain us instead of, you know, just relying on ourselves. So yeah, it's 39 a month and it's month to month and it's just a space that I'm holding for women who want to build more professional relationships. [00:30:34] Sarah: We'll make sure to link to it. I always have one last question, uh, Cara, and that's, what are you grateful for today or this week, this month? [00:30:45] Cara: Oh my goodness. I think I'm most grateful for my family this week. It's there's a lot of, there's a lot of lonely people out there and I have a wonderful husband and a, an amazing son and I'm really [00:31:00] grateful for them. [00:31:02] Wonderful. [00:31:03] Thank you for having me.

Welcome back to Artbeat Radio! In this week's episode, the podcast production team at Able ARTS Work San Diego introduces themselves, their team roles, and a little bit about them personally. As they gear up to start bringing you their talk show-style episodes this spring, let them take you on a little behind the scenes journey as the give you a quick tutorial on the steps to creating a great podcast! Thank you to the SD podcasting team, Erick Abney, Jillian Anderson, Joshua Andrews, Julian Camerino, Jonathan Garcia, Kaitlyn Johanson, Liam Porter, Sarah Shaw Thanks for listening and tune in next time! For more information about our organization, please visit our website www.ableartswork.org Be sure to follow us on instagram @artbeatradio Audio Transcription: (Please listen on Podomatic or Spotify to view the full transcript) *Intro music by Artbeat Radio staff* Music, stories, and more! You're listening to Artbeat Radio, a program of Able ARTS Work. Jonathan: Hi, my name is Jonathan. I'm 23 years old. My team role is the talent liaison. This means I am helping to get the guest artists ready to go on the podcast. My favorite things about myself are that I'm helpful, easygoing, and I'm funny. My disabilities make it hard to speak and hard to walk, but I always have a positive attitude. Santiago: Hello, my name is Santiago and I'm 24 years old. My role on the team is talent using my mouth to make sound effects. I love to sing and my favorite thing about myself is my big heart. Erick: My name is Erick Abney. My role on the podcast team is voice actor. I am 60 years old. I was born in Lima, Peru, which is the west coast of Peru. I chose to join podcast because I was thinking of doing voiceover like Lion King and dinosaurs and Paw Patrol. Sarah: Hi, my name is Sarah and I'm 23 years old. I have ataxia-telangiectasia. It makes me shake a lot and it affects my speech. I was able to walk until I was 9 years old, but it doesn't stop me from doing the things I love. My role on the team is I'm the head script writer. My favorite things about myself are that I am kind and I am very pretty. I chose to be on the podcast team because I want my voice to be heard and I want to get discovered one day. Kaitlyn: Hi, my name is Kaitlyn Johansen. I'm 26 and I was born in Mary Birch hospital in San Diego. I'm one of the hosts of the podcast. My disability is how to talk and learning how to use the machine that helps me to talk because I used to have that when I was 7. My favorite thing about myself is that I'm a fun person. (Prom Night dance). Jillian: Hi, my name is Jillian Anderson, I am 24 years old, and I have an intellectual disability which is a learning disability. I have a hard time learning certain things, but with my mom and dad's help and help from my teachers, I know I'm capable of anything. My role in podcast is one of the hosts. This is my first time doing a podcast talk show and I am very excited to see what episodes we're gonna do for you fans out there. Your talented co-host, Jillian Anderson. (I LOVE JUSTIN BIEBER) Podcast Tutorial Jillian: Now that you know us, the podcast team, we're going to give you a quick tutorial on how we make our podcast episodes. Kaitlyn: You go, girl! Jillian: Every podcast needs a theme song. First, we choose the instruments that we want to use. Then we come up with a catchy tune and lyrics. Finally, we record it and we're ready to go. Kaitlyn: Hit it! Jillian: Next, we have to choose our guests, so we go around the Able ARTS Work building and we ask our peers if they want to be interviewed on the podcast. If they say yes, we can start the pre-production process for an episode. Kaitlyn: Oh yeah!!! Jillian: Every (continued)

We are honored to have Dr. Hazel Keedle join us today all the way from Australia! Hazel is the author of Birth After Caesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth. She has more than 25 years of experience as a clinician both in nursing and midwifery, an educator, and a published researcher. Her work remains rooted in her desire to strengthen and empower women.Hazel tells us how her own VBAC birth journey lit a fire that led to the completion of her doctorate degree and her book. Everything in her book is ESSENTIAL for VBAC-hopeful mamas and is all backed with evidence-based research.We know you will LOVE listening to Hazel. She is so gracious and such an invaluable asset to the birth world. This episode is a must-listen and her book is most definitely a must-read for all!Additional linksBirth After Caesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth by Hazel Keedle, PhDHazel's Instagram: @hazelkeedleHazel's Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/VBACmattersSarah's Instagram: @sarah_marie_bilger or @entering_motherhoodHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: You guys are listening to The VBAC Link and I'm so excited for today's episode. We have Hazel Keedle today. She's in Australia and it's 1:00 a.m. She stayed up all night just to be with us today on this podcast. So grateful for her. We're going to be time sensitive so we can make sure to get her tucked into bed at a somewhat reasonable hour, but guess what? Today, we have a co-host. A co-host! I'm so excited to start bringing on some co-hosts here and there. Today, we have Sarah and she is one of our VBAC doulas. I'm so excited to have her with us today. Review of the WeekMeagan: Sarah is going to actually do the honors of reading you a review. So go ahead, Sarah. Sarah: Hi, yeah. I'm glad to be here. We have a review from Katelyn Bayless. This one is from google and it says, “I honestly can't recommend The VBAC Link enough. I had my son via C-section in 2021 and even though I'm not pregnant with number two yet, I feel so ready and even excited for when that time comes because of all of the stories and education from The VBAC Link. I have been binging the podcast for the past couple of weeks and I have a note on my phone that is specifically for VBAC resources and education that has been mentioned on this podcast. “I am looking into providers and planning on starting interviewing some soon. I can't tell y'all enough. Thank you for all that you do and I hope one day I can share my VBAC story.”Meagan: Oh, I love that. I love that. Well, today's episode is going to have some more resources for you for sure. Hazel Keedle, PhDMeagan: We are coming to you from The VBAC Link. We have a guest from Australia. We're so excited to have her. We're so, so excited. We actually just connected here. We are connecting for the first time, I should say today, but Hazel, our guest today, just connected with us about a week or two ago. You guys, she is so amazing. It's 1:00 a.m. and she is in Australia recording right now, so I just want to give her a huge shoutout and thank you for being with us at 1:00 a.m. Oh my goodness. I told her I probably would have been, “Nope. Let's find another time,” but here she is. She is so dedicated at 1:00 a.m. recording with us and I cannot wait to share with you this wonderful, wonderful human being. We are going to jump right into it because again, it's 1:00 a.m. I don't want to take too much time but I wanted to introduce her quickly. This is Hazel Keedle. She is a lecturer of midwifery and completed her PhD in 2021 at Western Sydney University in Australia. Hazel has more than 25 years of experience as a clinician in nursing and midwifery, educator, and researcher. Her research is – it might as well be 1:00 here Hazel. Hazel: You're doing great.Meagan: Her research is recognized internationally and focuses on midwifery practice, education, and women's experience in maternity care. Hazel is passionate about improving support for women during pregnancy, birth, and early transition to mothering. She is amazing. Right here in my very hands, I am holding a book that she wrote. It's called Birth After Caesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth by Hazel Keedle. I definitely am going to suggest this and we are going to talk more about her book here in just a minute, but again, I don't want to take too much of her time so we are going to jump right into it and turn the time over to you to share all of your wonderful knowledge and of course, your story. Hazel: Sure, okay. Well, thank you for having me here. I really don't mind waiting up for you. Okay, so yeah. My name is Hazel Keedle and I'm originally from the U.K., but I moved to Australia 20 years ago now with a backpack and I never left. I came over here as a nurse and then I trained to be a midwife while I was here. I was kind of destined. My granny was a midwife in England and she told me that I would be one, so I followed what she said and I became a midwife here. And then, I wasn't particularly interested in vaginal birth after Cesarean at that point. I was just trying to get my head around what being a midwife was and what it meant. I quickly met my husband during my UgradG* as a midwife. We quite quickly got together and had a baby which was a planned home birth but ended up that he was being breech and I ended up having an emergency Cesarean because in my area at the time– this was 15 years ago– there wasn't anyone who supported breech vaginal birth. I knew that I would have to have a Cesarean. I didn't have a great experience and I didn't do too well with my health afterward. But then, which was not planned at all, I got pregnant again very quickly. There were only 4 months between my Cesarean and getting pregnant. When I did find out, which was a few months after that, so I was breastfeeding, I had to think about what I was going to do and I really didn't want to have a Cesarean. My whole first experience was the most hospitalized home birth you can have. I had pneumonia at 34 weeks with my first and then I had a Cesarean and I had mastitis and a childhood fever, so I was in the hospital three times. Meagan: Oh my goodness. Hazel: I was really sick and I really did not want to go through that again, but I also wasn't sure if I would get support to have a VBAC because there would be 13 months between them or 14 months, I thought, at that point. I did lots of reading. I was a midwife by this point and I dug my head into the numbers. I read the only book that was out there which was The Silent Knife which as you know, is very old and it was very old then, but it was really good at getting me the statistics. I then dated my reading. For a whole weekend, I shut myself in a room and just read and read and read and read. I came out of it freaked out because a paper had come out that year that said if it was less than 6 months between a Cesarean and conception, then you had a 2.7% chance of uterine rupture compared to less than 1%. I got a bit freaked out by those numbers. I came up to my hubby who is a very rational numbers man and I said, “I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't have a VBAC.” I told him the numbers and he said, “You've got over a 97% chance of everything being fine.” I was like, “Well, yeah.” It was more dangerous and get in a car and drive to the hospital. Why don't you just go for a VBAC?I adopted his idea and I thought that it was a great idea. I became dedicated to having a VBAC at that point. I didn't realize at the time it would shape my future career and life goals, but I stuck my head in the sand. I avoided antenatal care to be honest because I didn't want to hear the negativity but I was a midwife, so I was able to get someone to listen to my baby and did my blood pressure every time I went to work. I did plan a home birth for my VBAC, but all of my team couldn't be there at the time, so I transferred in. I had to fight during my labor. There was just lots of coercion, lots of “you must have your baby by 4:00 or you're going into a Cesarean”, and I had to just keep fighting. It was so hard to keep fighting when you are in labor. They also knew I was a midwife. I trained there, so I couldn't understand why I had to fight so hard. And then I actually pushed her out of my vagina at 4:00 on the dot. Meagan: Oh my gosh, no way. Hazel: Yeah. The time they were going to take me into theater was her birth time. It was amazing. I didn't know I could feel that high after doing something that was so hard, but I did and it left me with a couple of questions when I looked back and reflected on how I felt. First of all, I wondered if there were any other women who felt as amazing as I did. I really was on cloud nine. I felt like I was healed and that all of the medical stuff I had after my first was gone. But with that came a question of how does any other woman in Australia manage to have a VBAC with that much drama and with that much negativity during labor?Meagan: Yeah and pressure. Hazel: Yeah and I was a midwife. I could see through it, but how did other women who didn't have that knowledge? So I was left with those questions. I was at a community forum. We had a lot of access issues up here to our local maternity and there were lots of petitions and community action. I went over to one of the forums. I shared my VBAC story in that forum and there was a professor of midwifery there who said, who I'd never met before, “You know, you're a midwife. I think you should research this.” I stayed in contact and then about a year later, I started doing research with her. She was my supervisor for both my Master's Honors and then my PhD. Now, we work together on a lot of projects. So yeah. It was sharing my story in that location that started my research career. Well, I think having a VBAC started my research career but that started my formal research career. Now I'm here. She's about to turn 14 and I have done a Master's, a PhD, five or so papers on VBAC, maybe more, and written a book. So that's my story in a nutshell. Meagan: Those are amazing things. And written a book. It's so funny because you were like, “Yeah, it started,” but I think it had been with you for a while and then that inspired you and gave you the extra oomph. It was like, “Now I've gone through this and experienced this. How can I change this? How can I change this for everyone else?” I always had this desire for birth and a passion for babies. I would have wanted to be a labor and delivery nurse, and then I had my first C-section and was like, “Oh. That wasn't really what I wanted or what I envisioned.” Hazel: Yeah. Meagan: And then after my second, learning more about doulas and birth, and really the options, then also going through that second Cesarean, although it was healing and everything, just having a different experience, I was like, “Yeah. This is what I'm doing. This is what I want to do.” It's like it was always in you and it was always in me, but these experiences that we've had have lit the first. Hazel: Yeah, it became the drive. I've always been interested in research. I got an Honors degree when I was a nurse back in London, and so I had a bit of a passion for research and for reading research, but I think you have to have that real drive and reason for going on such a big path. And yeah, definitely. For me, it was not even how amazing I felt. It was just that question of, did other women feel that? Is it hard for everyone?There was one point when I had stayed overnight. I wish I hadn't. I wish I had gone straight home, but I had been coerced to stay overnight in the hospital. Midwives would be coming in and saying, “Are you the VBAC woman?” I thought, “What is this? Is this a zoo and I'm a prized animal that they are coming in to stare at?” It made me think that it actually was quite rare then to have a VBAC here. It was really so rare that they had to come in and go, “Are you the VBAC woman?”Meagan: “Are you the VBAC woman?” Yes. Hazel: Yeah. But I hadn't learned much about it in my training. I was working in the low-risk units, so we didn't offer VBAC in the hospital I was working in, so it was quite a rarity for me as well. Meagan: Yes. So tell me more about VBAC in Australia. Tell me more about what it's looking like, what it's seeming like, and what you've learned through all of your education. I would love to know. We talked about this in the beginning. I'm just here in Utah. We are actually very fortunate. We have a high VBAC rate here. I mean, Cesarean rates are still through the roof in general in my own opinion, but we still have a higher VBAC rate and we still have to fight for it. It isn't as uncommon, but I'd love to know more about your research and what you're seeing there in Australia. Hazel: Yeah. So what is your VBAC rate, out of interest, in Utah?Meagan: I'm trying to remember the exact. I will look it up. Hazel: I'm trying to think that the US in general is about 12% isn't it the last time I checked the numbers?Meagan: Yeah, that does sound right. Hazel: Interestingly, I do a lot of presentations on VBAC. When you look across the world, they really do vary from Finland with, I have a 50%, down to across to you guys at 12%. We match you. We actually don't have the high European numbers. We have 12% as well. Meagan: It says 23.9%. Hazel: Okay, so that's pretty good. I wish we had that. Meagan: Yeah, so it says in 2020, well, oh my gosh. 21.3% were Cesarean, but vaginal birth after Cesarean from 2017-2020 in Utah averages 23.9% overall. Hazel: Yeah. Meagan: And then it breaks it down within the cities here. Hazel: Which is pretty good. I mean, I know that's not consistent across the U.S. because the national number comes right down. We do have varieties over here and those varieties are down to the model of care and access. So here in Australia, we have a public maternity system or a public hospital system that is paid through the taxpayer. In that system, where everyone gets free health care, they will be able to access a few different models depending on what's available in their area. They might have a midwifery group practice where they could see the same midwife throughout and there would be a few of them that were on call for free. It's part of the hospital service, but that is relatively new. That has really been rising in the last few years as the health services are increasing those models. We have the standard antenatal care which is where women see whichever midwife is on duty or whichever doctor is on duty and whoever is in the labor ward will look after them during labor and whoever is on the ward would look after them postnatally. We call it “standard care” but we also call it “fragmented care” because you see somebody different all of the time. Then we have– so outside of the hospital system, we have some smaller ones for first nations women, and for migrant women, there are some specific models as well. But then outside of the hospital system, we do have privately practicing midwives who are able to prescribe medications, get some money back from Medicare, and offer home birth services. Some of them also have visiting rights in hospitals. That is more state specific. We have more ** there than in any other state here in Australia for the visiting rights. Meagan: So then are you able to come over if a transfer were needed to happen and things like that, they could come over and perform their care? Hazel: Yeah, they could have an agreement with the local hospital, but that's a growing thing and it's more popular in some states than in others. Where I am, which is New South Wales, which is where Sydney is, there's only really one hospital that offers that in such a very big state. Meagan: Yeah. Hazel: And then we also have the private hospital as well where you would be through a private obstetrician. You would get that continuity, but it's obstetric care, not midwifery care. You may or may not see a midwife during your antenatal period and then you will have midwives along in the labor ward or in the private hospital, but with the private obstetrician you signed up for. So we've got a few different models of care and what we do know from the studies that have been done, the VBAC rates do vary across those models of care. They are higher with privately practicing midwives, so a lot of women who choose home birth are choosing it after a Cesarean and that's what I did my first study on which was their experiences. Then we have good rates in midwifery models of care such as the midwifery group practices and then we have low rates in private hospitals. They have higher repeat Cesarean rates and a lower VBAC rate in private hospitals with continuity of obstetric care. That's really how it looks. But obviously, we are a very big country with a lot of areas in between, so we will have hospitals that maybe don't offer birthing services, but a lot of our remote communities are a bit like Canada where all of them, I say in areas of Canada, they have some birthing in-country services. We are still a bit behind on that, so it really is a variety of services, but in most metropolitan hospitals, you'd get a private model, a public model, and midwifery models within that. Meagan: Yeah. Oh my gosh. I love it. I wish so badly that I had the capabilities or I guess I was in a time in my life where I didn't have little, like little kids, where I could bounce around to not only different states but different countries and somehow observe birth and learn birth around the world. That is this dream of mine that I could understand birth from all areas other than just little Utah here. I have a doula partner who just came from Texas and birth is so different here in Utah than it is in Texas. What you're describing is so different. Obviously, there are similarities all around. We hear all of these stories and there are definite similarities. It's birth, but the way care is and everything, so yeah. One day. One day maybe I'll be able to bounce around in life, but I love hearing that. Hazel: That's right because only then you're limited then to really what is published and so some other countries that have higher VBAC rates– just across from us is New Zealand where they have a midwifery model of care and the numbers we can get from them, they don't have national data on this, they seem to have much higher VBAC rates to us, but then they aren't published very much on it, so it's really hard to know. Unless you're there, it's hard to get a sense of what's going on. Meagan: What's really going on, what they're doing, and why do they have such a high rate? Hazel: Yeah, yeah. Meagan: Other than maybe midwifery care. Hazel: There are some studies out there, especially in Europe, there are some studies that looked into the culture and how different that is, but not enough. Not enough to really give us an idea. Meagan: Absolutely. So, Ms. Hazel, I would love for you to share more about your book too. You have so many amazing things in this book. I'm going to hurry and just flip over to the table of contents, but it reminds me a lot about our VBAC course. It covers so many incredible things, these topics. Obviously, your VBAC journey is in there, your research journey which I think is amazing, your PhD journey, birth trauma, and experiences and symptoms of birth trauma which are so important. We don't talk about that enough. Seeking help and debriefing– again, something we don't talk about enough. How to access debriefing. I don't know if you want to cover any of that, but that's so important right there. You have so many things in this book. Do you want to cover some of your highlights? Sarah and I are both here in the states, but we would love to know more about this amazing book. By the way, listeners, we're going to have a link for this book if you want to purchase it and give it a read because it's going to be amazing for you. I promise you. Hazel: Oh thank you. Well, my publishers are in the U.S., so when I was writing it I very much had the U.S. in mind, Australia, and the U.K., so even when I looked at any resources in the book, I tried to find U.S. ones as well. Meagan: Yeah, I noticed. YOu have some Lamaze and everything in here. You have tables of words broken down and it does have U.S. things. That is something, I think, that is so amazing because a lot of our listeners are in the U.S. so it's super nice to be able to read something and have some resources for here where they are. Hazel: Yeah. The idea behind the book was I was towards the end of my Ph.D. journey and I used a methodology called feminist critical theory. Part of that is that you give back your research. You get your research. You get your data from women in the community, but you want to give back to transform that culture for the better. When I was really evaluating, “Well, how do I do that?” When I was writing my thesis, I was like, “Well, how am I giving back to my community?” I had research papers and I know people read research papers. You guys do and then you translate that evidence into your doula course. A lot of people do that. But I thought, “Maybe that's not everyone.” When I did my Australian VBAC survey, I asked what kind of resources people used, and there was a real want to have more books out there. I wondered if I could have this crazy pipe dream of writing a book and then I had the opportunity to do that, so I submitted my thesis in the October and by the December, I had signed a book contract. I was really keen while it was all fresh in my head to get it all out and down on paper.I think lockdowns were in my favor because I had to take leave because it was building up. I couldn't go anywhere so it was like, “Well, I will just sit and write this book then.” That's really how I used my time to do it. I put it together as my findings of my PhD. One of the first papers I wrote on my PhD journey was looking at all of the evidence that was out there. The title of the paper was, “The journey from pain to power.”That was a thread that went through all of my PhD journey. When I was then looking at, “Well, how do I write this book?” The term “journey” was very high up there. I thought, “Well, I go on that journey from pain to power.” That first thing is that pain and that is that previous Cesarean. One of the things I found out from my studies was that usually in the community, we have about a third of women say “yes” to experiencing birth trauma. That's the full state of birth trauma which includes psychological birth trauma. When I asked that question in my VBAC surveys– so all of these women have had at least one previous Cesarean– that was ⅔ of women that suggested birth trauma. We already know we have a highly traumatized group of women who have had a previous Cesarean, so that's why I started with that. I think it's really important. It certainly is. I was a home birth midwife for many years. I know you need to work that out and talk about it, and debrief about it before. You've got to work at that past to be able to look forward to the future. Meagan: Yeah. Well, and even recognizing it. Hazel: Yeah, that's a great one. Meagan: Sometimes, it's hard to recognize that you look at your experience as traumatic because I feel like so many times, we are mentally trained to tell ourselves, “Oh, we had a safe and healthy baby, so no. It's fine.” They suppress their trauma down. They're like, “No, I was fine. It's fine.”Sarah: We're led to believe that as well. Hazel: Yeah, absolutely. That's why I really brought in quotes and what it can look like for women and quotes from the stories that had been shared with me for people to go, “Maybe that is what I experienced. Maybe those symptoms are what I am experiencing.” I start that chapter off with, “Go grab yourself, in pure English style, go grab yourself a cup of tea and a chocolate bar because this chapter will be tough,” just to recognize that this might not be the easiest one. It might not be where people want to start off with. They might go back to that. But yes. I started off with that pain and then I used what I found through my PhD and what I did in my qualitative. So in my PhD, I had qualitative and that moved into quantitative. So the qualitative is all of the feelings, experiences, and exploration, and then the quantitative is all of the stats and the numbers. When I did the qualitative, what I did was I had this crazy idea of designing an app. Women, after their appointments with their healthcare provider, would come home and record their experiences on the app. They would do that after every appointment and then I interviewed them afterward as well. I had some really rich data. I had 52 recordings. I'm so grateful to those women. I'll be forever indebted to those women. Then I had all of these interviews as well, so I had these really rich stories. We use that term in qualitative is rich data. Sarah: These were appointments leading up to their birth or after in the postpartum period after their Cesarean? Hazel: Right, this is during their pregnancy. Sarah: Okay.Hazel: So they were planning to have a VBAC. That's what their plan was and then they would go and see their healthcare providers and then they would do recordings for me. They were given some prompts and questions, but it became very organic like it was more like a journal. They would start going, “Hi, Hazel. I'm so many weeks now and this is what just happened.” It was a really novel way. The research hadn't been done like that before, so it was really interesting. What I was able to do was a narrative analysis which was comparing all of their stories against each other to look for commonalities and differences. What I found is that there were these four factors that impacted how they felt after the birth because I interviewed them all after the birth as well. Those four factors, if they were really positive on those four factors across them and they had a cumulative effect. One had an impact on the other. They felt better about their birth experience regardless of the birth experience. If they felt lower on those four factors, they were more devastated after their birth experience.It didn't mean that those who had a vaginal birth didn't feel more positive than those that had a repeat Cesarean because it kind of was that as well, but there was a lot of resolution that could come when you had a repeat Cesarean, and felt higher in those factors. Those factors are then what I go into in the book. There's a chapter dedicated to each one of those factors. They are having control, so having control over your choices, your wishes, and your birth outcomes. Then there's having confidence, so having confidence in your ability to have a vaginal birth after a Cesarean, but also, having confidence in your healthcare providers' belief in you. That was quite surprising for me how pertinent that was. Women really wanted that. It makes sense, doesn't it? You really want that person to believe in you and believe that you can do what it is that you want to do. And then there's having a relationship, so that was the relationship that you have with your healthcare provider whether that's one that is developed such as continuity of care or whether it's with a different person each time, and even then, not all continuity is the same and that really came out in the study. And then the last one is being active in labor. That seemed a bit of a strange one to add on, but women who felt they were really able to do everything that they wanted to do during labor and birth, being as active as they could, as upright as they could, felt better after their birth experience. If they then ended up with a repeat Cesarean, then they still felt very positive because they had done everything that they could compared to not having the opportunity to be upright and vocalizing that. Meagan: Yes, yes. We have found that. I have found that personally in my group of doulas. We have found that even if it doesn't end the way they want, there are bumps and curves. It's labor and birth, but along the way, if they felt like they were in charge and were able to be in the positions they wanted and call the shots a little bit more, overall after, they felt immensely more positive and happy about their experience. Hazel: Yeah, absolutely. That's it. In the book then, I really go into what they all mean. The control chapter might take some people by surprise because I actually know a lot of women, especially when they are reflecting on their previous Cesarean which may have been, let's just take probably the most common example these days. Induction, they're having their first baby, they get close to the date, post dates, they get encouraged to have an induction. The induction doesn't quite go to plan. They have a cascade of interventions and have a Cesarean. When they are then planning for the next birth before or during the pregnancy, one of the common themes is getting armed with knowledge. It's like, “Okay. Now I need to know everything about labor, birth, and pregnancy. I really want to be able to call the shots.” There's a bit of grieving in that time of, “Why did I say yes? Why didn't I say no?” A bit of self-blame. I think as women, we are kind of hardwired to blame ourselves for everything, especially blaming our bodies because we are never quite right. The media never lets us think we are right because we are either too big or too small or our boobs are not quite right or whatever. Meagan: Right.Hazel: There's nothing to make us feel better and then we blame ourselves for not being able to stand up against the patriarchal medical system. I actually start the control chapter looking at the impact of the patriarchy in medicine and especially in obstetrics and how the different waves of feminism have impacted that and also the impact of reproductive justice which is something that is obviously very important in the U.S., but also over here with our host nations' women and migrant communities that have come to Australia. I look at all of that and really frame it to go, “You know, it's actually not your fault. It's actually really hard to stand up for yourself and say no when you are at the bottom of a really oppressive ladder.” Not to come and say, “Well, you can't do anything,” because then I explore all of the ways of what you can do to help that and actually how you need all of those factors together to really build your position. But almost to take that guilt off and also understand where we've got to today with a hospital-based maternity system, why it is like it is, and the impact of all of those different changes in society that have got to where we are today. So yeah. Those are the different chapters. Some of them have activities that you can do. There are a few guess righters in there. And then one of my favorite parts, probably because I didn't have to write it, but I put a Facebook post out and asked for women who had any VBAC stories that they wanted to print in the book. I wanted a VBAC with just something a little bit different or complicated risk or whatever. I have got 12 stories of women from around the world including the U.S. who've had VBAC with something a little bit different there. It might be after multiple Cesareans like your story or it might be at home or it might be with a larger body which, as we know, gets a lot of stigma in maternity care. There's one that is a VBAC after a uterine rupture. There's one after a classical scar. There are all of these different stories at the back of the book in full with pictures, but I also weaved them into some of the chapters earlier as well. I love those stories. Some are short. Some are in poem form and some are really long. I just kept them as they were and put them in the book. Just really so women can identify and go, “Maybe I'm not quite sure what Hazel is saying,” and then they get to that story and they are like, “Oh, actually I really relate to that person.”Meagan: Yeah. That's one of the reasons why we're here on The VBAC Link podcast, right? All of these stories, some of them you might not connect to as deeply, and then some you're like, “Oh my gosh. That's me. I felt that. I had that. That's my story. It's like they're taking it out of my own mouth.”Hazel: Absolutely. It is so important. Meagan: We've had that many times where it's like, “Whoa. That was almost creepy how similar those births were,” and then to be able to connect and be like, “But look. They went on and they did it. This is what they did.” It's so empowering. Just flipping through these beautiful pictures is absolutely stunning. Absolutely stunning pictures. I'm sure these stories are going to, again, relate to so many people out there that may not even know that they're going to relate to them until they read them. Hazel: Yeah. I do mention in the– oh my gosh. I'm testing myself on which chapter that one's in now. I think it might be Confidence about really relating to stories and listening to podcasts. I mention that you really need to tap into your peers because we have very large social media groups now and pages to follow full of positive VBAC stories. That's important in there. I do also add there, it does say that the title is Birth After Cesarean. I do throughout the book look at, you are choosing the best birth for you. You need to prepare for both, but you may either have or choose a gentle Cesarean. There is a chapter in there as well about what a gentle Cesarean is, what evidence says, and maybe some of the things you might think of if you have a repeat Cesarean. There is that part of it as well because I explore how important it is to really if you're going to be in control of everything or have more control, then you have to be aware of all options that might happen and be able to still have the best birth for you regardless of that outcome. Meagan: Yeah. We just posted– we reposted I should say– from Dr. Natalie Elphinstone. I think that is how you say it. Hopefully, I'm not butchering her last name. She's from Australia actually. She's an OB and she posted this video of a gentle Cesarean where the mom was actively involved in giving birth to her baby with her own hands. Hazel: Yeah. Meagan: For me in my Cesareans, both of them, my arms were strapped down in a T and after my second daughter was born, they undid the one arm and I did have skin-to-skin. I was able to hold her with that one arm, but watching this video was captivating. It's a 30-second thing, but I watched it probably 40 times because I'm like, “Oh my gosh.” I looked at the mom. I looked at the baby. I looked at everyone around her. There was no curtain. She was able to be totally a part of her birth. I'm like, “Yes. This is what we need.” I literally texted a midwife here in Utah. I'm like “I know I'm a really small fish in a big ocean, but let me know if there's anything I can do from my end to start bringing this option to people.” We got so many messages after like, “Whoa. How can I get that? What do I need to do?” It looks like in Australia, there are multiple videos of this happening. Hazel: I will add that it's not common and it really does depend on who your OB is. Meagan: Exactly. Hazel: But a few years ago, one of my dear friends did her PhD as a video ethnography of skin-to-skin in theater. She was videoing Cesareans and seeing really what happens to what enables skin-to-skin in theater and what doesn't. It was really fascinating. She was one of my PhD buddies. One of the Cesareans she saw was a gentle Cesarean with the woman reaching down to grab her baby. She wrote this beautiful article, but it was actually in a midwifery college magazine that doesn't exist anymore. I could say that she had written it, but I couldn't find my copy of it. I emailed because we are friends. I emailed her and I said, “Look. Do you have a PDF copy because I really want to read it?”She sent it to me. I read it. I wrote about it in that chapter and then I sent the chapter to her. I said, “Could you just read it to make sure that I've said all the right things?” because that's her expert area. She was happy with what I had written, so that was good. Yeah. It really is down to providers. But really, the more women that ask for it, the more pressure there will be to explore it. There are a lot of resources and videos out there now that can show people how to do it. Meagan: And how to do it and that it is possible. Hazel: Yeah. Meagan: I think sometimes it's like, “No. That's impossible. It's a sterile environment. We can't have extra bodies in the operating room.” But look. Hazel: The woman's already there. There's not going to be an extra body. Meagan: Right. Hazel: And really, the ones that I've seen really, they will do the surgical scope with their hands. They will have double gloves on so when they get to the point of needing to reach down, they can take that first pair of gloves off, and then you've got the sterile ones on underneath. There are lots that can be done. Even just lowering the screen. There's often still a screen there, but it's lowered so they can reach down and then take the baby, and then it can go back up while they do the suturing. Meagan: Absolutely, yeah. Hazel: There are ways it can be done, but it's just having people understand why. I remember being in an OB's office with a client, a woman I was caring for. She was exploring her options after having a Cesarean. She mentioned having a gentle Cesarean. His attitude was, “Well, if I offer that, then nobody will want to plan a VBAC.” I was like, “That's actually not going to happen. Don't worry. It's just giving an option to women. Women still really want to have a vaginal birth after Cesarean. That's not going to go down. Your rates are not even that high anyways so don't stress. This is what you can do to support them.” But yeah. That was an excuse for not wanting to go there because it sounds a little bit too hard. Meagan: Mhmm. Sarah: Yeah. That just goes back to sharing our stories too because I feel like without sharing those experiences like we were saying, you're not going to know what your options are if you're not being informed about them. If others are doing this and more people are asking for it, then it's going to open that door and allow other people to be in control of what they want for their birth. Meagan: Exactly. Hazel: And throughout the book, it really is based on evidence. I am a researcher with a very large library of articles and I did dive into them. Straight after the trauma chapter, I go into what the evidence is for the different choices. I have a really deep dive into uterine rupture and then what was meant to be part of a chapter actually ended up on its own which was Can I Have a VBAC If…? and then I look into different scenarios or issues that potentially people will say, “Can I have a VBAC if I've got this?”So that is all evidence-based with numbers and going through what current data is out there. Meagan: Right. There are a lot of percentages in your book. I love it. There are graphs. You may not think that this may impact care, but she has this, it's Figure 2 in the book. It's talking about the length of time for pregnancy appointments under different models of care. You may not right now think the length of an appointment matters, but I can tell you right now firsthand from experience that when I had with my VBAC kiddo, I switched care at 24 weeks. I had an OB and he was great. I seriously loved the guy. He's wonderful and I still think he's wonderful. But then I switched care to a midwifery model-based care. The difference between my visits and again, OBs will spend time, but for me, the difference between my visits was incredible. I actually looked forward, really looked forward to visits with my midwife. I was always greeted with a ginormous hug. She never walked in without giving me a big hug and saying, “How are you doing? Really, how are you?” and then would sit down. We would just have a discussion. She became my best friend. I could just open up to her. She spent quality time. For me, it really helped me as I was entering into this next stage of birth to feel confident in her. I was so comfortable because of all the time that she spent with me. Hazel: I love that. I do love that graph. That came out of my VBAC in Australia survey. We asked what model of care they had and then I asked, “What was the time spent at your appointments?” When we looked at the data, it was just so obvious that the shorter time frame, so maybe 5-15 minutes was certainly with obstetric-led care, and then the 20 minutes plus– certainly, with the privately practicing midwives it was more, and then an hour usually was with the midwifery models of care. That was important because relationships take time. In that relationship factor, you need to have someone by your side who understands your wishes and your trauma if you have some which, as I said, ⅔ of women did, and understands what you want, what you are planning for, and what you are hoping for. Just understanding you and how you tick. Certainly, in my years as a continuity of care midwife, in all models of care, you really, for me as a midwife, I really want to know the person that I'm caring for so that I can see those changes, those really subtle changes in behavior even during labor and also you can pick up when things really aren't quite right and that you might need an extra hug at that time or an extra kind word. Meagan: Yeah. Hazel: That takes a lot of trust. Relationships in healthcare, I believe, should be based on trust and equity. That takes time. The very simple graph, there's no way I could have done an appointment in ten minutes because I have to have a cup of tea at least. There's no way I could drink a cup of tea in just five or ten minutes. So sit down, have a cup of tea, and learn about what's going on.The physical part, feeling the baby, the blood pressure, that you do at some point, but that to me, finding out what's going on for the woman and how she's feeling and what's going on with the family, that is far more important. That takes time. When we saw that in the graph format, it was like, “Oh perfect. That exactly shows what we are saying.” A relationship takes time. Most of us don't usually marry someone that we haven't really or get into a relationship with someone that we haven't spent a fair bit of time with and figured out whether we like them or not. We understand that those relationships are important. I think that when you are only doing something a few times in your life, but you will remember it for the rest of your life, then you really want to choose the team and the support people there. That includes your healthcare provider who completely knows you and completely understands where you've come from and where you want to go.Meagan: Oh my gosh. I love it. I feel like I could talk to you until 4:00 a.m. in Australia. Hazel: I'm wide awake now. Meagan: My family and I are getting ready. We are going on a trip this weekend. Your book is going to be in my hand the entire airplane ride there and back because I just want to soak in every single word that you wrote in this book. I am so excited. I definitely encourage everyone. I haven't even read it yet, but I've skimmed it I should say. I started, but I haven't had time to just sit down and read. It's going to be amazing I can already tell just by browsing through this and listening to you.Oh my gosh. There is something that you say here. It's in the very beginning. This is where I have stopped reading, but it was something that impacts me personally because I feel emotional. It's kind of funny. I felt like this. I felt like a failure and I feel like there are so many times in life when we can– like you said, we beat ourselves up. If it's not about our body, it's about something else, but failure is a word that comes in. I actually have recently, today actually, it's going to be launching. I recently made a reel about failure and how there is no such thing as failure, but this is something if you don't mind, I'm going to quote you reading this book. It's page 10 everybody if you have the book. “In this book, I will talk about planning an elective Cesarean, planning a VBAC, having an elective Cesarean, having a VBAC, or having a repeat emergency Cesarean. There is no failure. You haven't failed if you choose one birth mode but have another. You are amazing and your choices are valid. Be true to you.” That, to me, is so powerful. “Be true to you.” And no, you did not fail no matter what birth mode you chose or what birth mode ended up happening, right? Don't you feel that, Sarah?Sarah: Yeah, I completely agree with that. I think it touches back into the trauma too that maybe you are not aware of that you've experienced and really fear-clearing and taking the time to process your previous birth knowing that whatever the outcome is for your next journey, you're not that failure. You're fine and perfect. You're enough. Hazel: Absolutely. Meagan: Mhmm. You are enough. Yes. Hazel: The research, when you read it, is really full of emotive damaging words when it comes to VBAC. Saying that women are a trial of scar or a trial of labor, we are not criminals for wanting to have a vaginal birth and when we use that language in research, then it means OBs and clinicians and nurses and midwives will use that language as well and tell you that you're on trial. What do you imagine when you think of that? You're not thinking about, “Is this uterine scar going to survive?” You get a feeling that you're a criminal and you're not just because you want to have a vaginal birth. I even challenge researchers. Take that language out. You don't need it. It's unnecessary. I've been writing a paper with some OBs over here recently and just saying, “I won't be on it if you use the term ‘trial.' I won't be on it if you use the term ‘failed' or ‘succeeded'. Just take the emotive words out and call it what it is.”We have to show by example as well and not have that language in the papers that are influencing policy, guidelines, and practitioners. Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: There is such power in the language and the words that we use. Absolutely. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Well, Hazel. It has been such an honor to chat with you. Like I said, I feel like we could go on and on and on. Maybe we just need to have you back on. Maybe we need to do something even bigger and do a webinar with you because you have such a wealth of knowledge and we're so grateful for you. Like I said everybody, we will have the link for her book Birth After Cesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth in our show notes. So Hazel, before we go, do you want to share where everyone can find you? I'm going to be sharing you all over our social media as well. We're going to have everything in the show notes, but tell people where we can find you. Hazel: Yeah, sure. I'm on Instagram at @hazelkeedle. I'm on Facebook at VBAC Matters or Hazel Keedle, VBAC Researcher. That's where I share my book information but also future research that I'm doing as well. I'd love to come on and do a webinar with you and talk further about this anytime even at 2:00 in the morning. Meagan: Even at 2:00 in the morning! You are amazing. We are so grateful to you. Seriously, thank you so much, Hazel. Yeah. I can't wait to share this episode with the world. Hazel: Thank you for having me. Sarah: You know, a lot of what we talk about in the episode is so important and so true to how I feel too. I think calling out trauma has been something that's really near and dear to my heart and something that I had to do to prepare for my own VBAC, so I definitely recommend anybody that is going through this journey to make sure that you are taking the time to really heal from that previous birth and taking time to process and doing some fear clearing and even physical healing from the scar and doing scar massage and such like that. Also, I really think it's important to find that support and build that relationship like Hazel was talking about. Make sure you have somebody that you are able to build a relationship with and feel comfortable with because that's going to matter so much when it comes to your birth. And also, finding a doula that you have a good relationship with, not just your provider. I think those are really main things that I really try to instill in anyone that's going for a VBAC. Meagan: Absolutely. I 100% agree and Sarah, we are so happy to have you in our VBAC Link doula community. Can you tell everybody where they can find you as well? Sarah: Yeah, sure. I am in Simpsonville, South Carolina. It's in upstate South Carolina. More commonly, I guess you'd be familiar with Greenville, South Carolina. I am in that area. You can find me, mostly I hang out on Instagram, so either @sarah_marie_bilger or Entering Motherhood. You can find me there on Instagram. We're actually planning on starting up local VBAC support groups.Meagan: Oh, amazing. Sarah: So if anybody is around and in the area and interested in doing that, there's going to be me and another doula in the area. We're excited to start that and really provide in-person support for people either that have had Cesareans, may be thinking of a VBAC, or really just any realm of Cesarean/VBAC. If you've already had your VBAC and you want to come share your story of success to motivate and help women that are preparing for it as well, we're going to include story sharing and different topics to cover. Meagan: Absolutely amazing. Awesome, awesome. When all of that information is available if you wouldn't mind shooting that over to us, we will make sure that the world knows that. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for co-hosting with me today. It was such an honor to have you. Sarah: Thanks for having me. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

If you're interviewing, you might be asked by a recruiter if you are interviewing with anyone else. Are you meant to say you have tons of interviews in order to seem in demand, or should you say they are your only choice to show how interested you are?In this week's episode, Sarah and Emma discuss what to say when recruiters or hiring managers ask if you're interviewing with other companies. We're going to discuss why they ask the question, the different ways you can answer it, and how that's going to affect how you get off the phone with that recruiter.

Welcome back to Artbeat Radio!  In this episode, service users from the Music Literacy and Music Studio classes at Able ARTS Work San Diego invite listeners to hear about what their classes are like, what they are excited about learning, and what they have been working on!Featuring: Jonathon Garcia, Stephanie Monis, Liam Porter, Claire Feth, Santiago Milanino, Sam Beyer, Matthew Fotinos, Sarah Shaw, Kaitlyn Johanson, Josh Andrews, Max Lecanu-Fayet  Thanks for listening and tune in next time! For more information about our organization, please visit our website www.ableartswork.org  Audio Transcription: (Please listen on Podomatic or Spotify to view the full transcript) *Intro music by Artbeat Radio staff*  Music, stories, and more! You're listening to Artbeat Radio, a program of Able ARTS Work. *Music plays  (Matthew) Alright! Do it!  (Jonathon) Hello everyone and welcome to Art Beat Radio.  (Stephanie) This week's episode will be featuring students from the Music Literacy and Music Studio classes at Able Arts Work San Diego.  (Start background music)  (Liam) You may be asking yourself, ‘what is music literacy?'  (Liam) Basically, music literacy is how to read, write, and understand music.  (Claire) We start class with music appreciation.  (Santiago) We listen to a song carefully and explore the emotions it makes us feel.  (Liam) Doing music appreciation teaches us how to explore our emotions because songs can have more than one emotion.  (Jonathon) Mixing major and minor chords can give us a complex feeling like bittersweet.  (Stephanie) If you want to be literate in music, first you need to learn the musical alphabet. The musical alphabet has 7 letters.   (Sam) A, B, C, D, E, F, and G.  (Jonathon) Sometimes a note can be sharp.  (Claire) That means the note goes up.  (Stephanie) Sometimes a note can be flat.  (Santiago) That means the note goes down.  (Liam) You can take notes and put them together to make chords.  (Stephanie) Every basic chord is a triad – three notes played together.  (Stephanie) We have learned that in any key, you can make major chords, minor chords, and diminished chords.  (Santiago) Major chords can make us feel happy, calm, good, or bright.  (Claire) Minor chords can make us feel tense, dark, down, or sad.  (Jonathon) Diminished chords are even more tense than minor chords.  (Liam) After a few weeks, we used all of this knowledge to start writing our own song together.  (Stephanie) To come up with a chord progression, we started with the I chord, then experimented with other chord numbers until we came up with something that sounded good.  (Jonathon) For the verse, we wrote a chord progression that goes I to iii to vii to I.  (Liam) For the chorus we wrote a chord progression that goes V to vi to vii to ii. When the chorus repeats, we replace the ii chord with a IV chord.  (Stephanie) Next, we experimented using notes from the chord triads to write a melody. Once we had our chord progression and melody, we listened to it carefully to figure out how the music made us feel.  (Santiago) We chose one emotion to focus on with our lyrics.  (Liam) We chose to focus on heartbreak because we agreed that the music sounded bittersweet.  (Claire) Now we were ready to start writing the lyrics.   (Jonathon) We used a rhyming dictionary and a thesaurus to help us craft the lyrics.  (Santiago) To capture the bittersweet emotion of the music, we focused on the bitter in the verses, and on the sweet in the chorus.  (Stephanie) Once we had the lyrics, we started choosing the instruments we wanted for our backing track and writing those parts in Logic.  (Jonathon) Do you want to hear a preview of our song right now?  (Stephanie) Hi, my name is Stephanie J. Monis. My favorite artist is Taylor Swift because I love her music and she is a songwriter. What I want to learn in this class is I want to put my songs and projects together so I can have some finished songs.  (Sarah) Hi, my name is Sarah Shaw. My favorite recording is Demi Lovato. The thing I'm most excited about in Music Studio class is recording the song I wrote. The song I want to record from my song book is called “All Eyes On Me”.  (Kaitlyn) My name is Kaitlyn Johanson. My favorite song artists are Harry Styles “As It Was” and David Bowie “Star Man”. My favorite recording artists are Kelly Clarkson and Bentley Brown. I'm most excited to learn from studio class this semester recording my voice, reading, and singing.  (Claire Feth) My name is Claire Feth. My favorite recording artists is Celine Dion and Julie Andrews. I'm most excited to play my drums.  (Josh) (Singing and playing piano) Oh, check it out. Hug-a hug-a. Hug-a please, promise. Craig coming. Where's coming coming? Say, Craig!  (Max) Hi, my name is Max Lecanu-Fayet. My favorite recording artists are Matchbox 20 and Enrique Iglesias. The thing I am most excited to learn about in Music Studio is how to make music using the computer.    *Outro music by Artbeat Radio staff*  We hope you enjoyed this episode of Artbeat Radio. For more information, please go to our website. Ableartswork.org. Thanks for listening and tune in next time!  

On the last episode of the podcast (episode 146) we talked about quitting Social Media and growing it without those platforms. Well, today, we take the Digital Minimalist approach. It's the approach I'm adhering to, as I'm still present on LinkedIn and really focusing my time and efforts on that one platform. I invited Cassie Widders, who is a social media strategist who works with personal brands and service-based business owners to simplify their social media to talk to us about creating a strategy with focus and minimalism. Cassie is known for her work on digital minimalism, social media and its effects on our wellbeing, and in making social media strategies more sustainable for personal brands and business owners. In this episode, you'll learn about the minimalist approach to social media strategy as well as...   The digital minimalism framework and what it means How we can be both present on Social Media, but also be a minimalist What our definition of success has to do with it Cassie's explanation of a seasonal business How such a minimalist strategy on the Socials could look like And so much more Cassie's Resources   Cassie's Website Cassie's Podcast: The Social Self Podcast Sarah's Episode on Cassie's Podcast Connect with Cassie on: LinkedIn Instagram   Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic! Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Sarah: Hi, Cassie. So good to speak to you today.  Cassie: Hey, thanks so much for having me. Yeah. [00:07:00] I'm  Sarah: so excited to have this conversation. I recently, I've had a lot of these swaps, you know, where I'm on a podcast and then I have we exchange and, and you are now on mine and it's, it's just such a way, great way of doing things, because once you feel like, okay, I found somebody that I'm really aligned with, why not, you know, help each other out. And, and instead of accepting one of. Pitches and you're like, eh, it doesn't feel, really feel like a  Cassie: good fit so, um, yeah,  Sarah: super excited to, to have you here. And of course we'll link to the interview, the episode on your podcast, as well. So excited to have you here and talk about social media. , and it's funny, cuz I'm just preparing, , an Encore of a workshop, called grow your business without social media. And so thanks for  Cassie: seeing that yeah. So of course, this is  Sarah: great to have you here, to talk about. Social media, but I think a very [00:08:00] different approach to social media, right? So you call yourself also a digital minimalist. So we're definitely gonna dive into that, but maybe first, tell us a little bit how you are different compared to, you know, the traditional social media strategist.  Cassie: Yeah. I think the biggest difference is I help people be on social media, less . And I think as a social media strategist, people are always a bit confused about that. But what I kind of like about my work is I understand the good and the bad from having worked in it. I've been in this industry for over eight years, working on strategies for businesses. I feel that there is so much potential with technology and social media, but I obviously understand the harm. So I come at it by saying, okay, if, if I know the intricacies of strategies for businesses, for social media, how can I help you do it in a way that works for you and your wellbeing as well? Cuz [00:09:00] I've previously when I was in this industry before I. Help people be on social media less. I was very much in the field of, okay. I know how to make it a successful social media strategy. Mm-hmm , here's the formula let's go or let's do it. And I was just seeing a lot of my clients and, and business friends and everything. Just get really overwhelmed with that and burnt out and. You know, it's a lot, it's a lot of content, a lot of rules of, you know, show up, be consistent, you know, all these kind of things. And, , yeah, now I help people still have a successful business, but. In a way that works for them. So I kind of think of myself, like on a mission to help people, business owners or personal brands or founders be more intentional with their time online.  Because I truly, truly, truly, truly believe that you can be present on social media and in real life, like that's kind of a mantra that I do kind of live by. , so yeah, so I create social media strategies, [00:10:00] but I also Inc. Digital wellbeing into that. So we get results, but you're also intentional with your time online and you have a healthier relationship with your phone as. Mm. Yeah.  Sarah: I love that. And so needed. I think, , I, I, I think we're reaching some kind of tipping point. That's why I, or that's what I noticed with putting out this podcast. And that's why I'm, I'm sorry to the workshop, uh, to grow your business without social media. And that's why I'm doing a. An Encore because there was a lot of interest. People are like, we're tired of constantly having to create content, constantly being there com commenting and replying to messages and things like that. So I, I think we're reaching this tipping point wherever we're like, okay. Yeah. It's here to stay. We got somehow learn how to, you know, do business with. Maybe I'm still putting a, maybe next to that, because maybe you can grow a business without it. , but for those who are actually like, okay, I [00:11:00] like it, you know, it's not like I don't like it. But in a healthy way. And, and I, I love that you're offering that to your clients. You also talk about, digital minimalism on your, on your website and. That you kind of build the, the social media strategy on the basis of these principles of digital minimalism. So tell us a bit more about it. , I, I haven't in a while, but I've been listening in the past to the digital minimalist. Podcast or can I remember two guys in the us who were like, they called themselves the, the minimalists, I think. Yeah. And, you know, who I'm talking about and, and yeah, definitely fascinated by, by that movement. Can't say that I'm following it. Exactly. But I do like the idea and one of my favorite business books is essentialism, which is kind of similar, you know, it's like, you just do the things that. Essential. So tell us more about these principles of [00:12:00] digital minimalism.  Cassie: Yeah. It's kind of the same thing as that, you know, like, so I first came across this a few years ago when I read the book digital minimalism by Cal port. And, , it's a fantastic book and I highly, highly recommend it. But what I got frustrated with is. Cal Newport is a very accomplished, amazing academic, but he's also someone who's never had a social media platform in his life. He goes on them occasionally for research, but as a user, he's never had one. And so the book, the philosophy behind it is fantastic. You know, , I've got a quote, which I'll, , say, which is from. The book itself or what Cal defines as digital minimalism, which is a philosophy of technology usage in which you focus your online time on a small number of selected and optimized activities that strongly support the things you value and then happily miss out and everything else mm-hmm . And you know, that sounds great. I know for [00:13:00] you. And I were like, yes, that sounds really good. Mm-hmm but what was quite frustrating was. It kind of leaves out the benefits of technology and social media and what it can do, whether that is connection, community, , support, creativity, all the things that you are able to do, whether it's make a living express yourself, find like-minded people. and it was very much a, okay. Have a digital detox, change the notifications on your phone, all absolutely valid and essential things to protect your wellbeing. Of course. But I was like, well, where does this leave business owners? You know, we can't just, well, I'm gonna get rid of. Instagram for six months. I mean, you can, but on the whole, when you're looking at an actual practical framework to market your business, it, it didn't really apply. It was more for people who are not running the business. So. With that I was like, right. Okay. There must be something that I can learn from this philosophy, [00:14:00] take things out of it and adapt it for businesses. And that's what I've been working on for the last few years. So my work helps you do exactly what the definition is, you know, which is to use technology, to support the things you value and miss out on everything else. So I help businesses be intentional with their time online. Streamline and simplify their social media strategy so that it just focuses on the small number of activities that essentially give them the best return on their investment. Mm-hmm so the whole goal is to improve their business and their wellbeing. So we essentially are minimalists for their marketing. That that's what I do is help them declutter that prioritize streamline and focus, but they have. There are processes they have to do in order to accept. That's what they're gonna miss out on, because that is the big thing of like, how are we going to prioritize? How are we going to determine what to take out, what to focus [00:15:00] on? And I, the way that I work, that the kind of framework that I work on is we merge your business goals, your lifestyle goals and your social media goals. And we put all them together because I, what I found is that a sustainable social media strategy. You can't have one, if it goes against your lifestyle and your enjoyment of things. Cause you know, the one biggest concern people have is now I can't be consistent or, oh, I have to show up today. Or, and then you realize I haven't posted in a while and I'm thinking, okay, if these are the common issues people are having, what is the friction there? Why, why is there a barrier? And that is because it's not in line. With their enjoyment, their skills, their strength, their lifestyle goals. So I'm gonna pause you there,  Sarah: Kathy. Cause I wanna go into that, go for it. But I also wanna just kind of go back to, , Cal Newport and, and his work and kind of this, Yeah, the theory of, you know, digital MI minimalism and, and [00:16:00] then actually the practicality, if you're starting out as a small business owner right now, it always kind of, , bothers me a little bit is when these accomplished people say, oh, you know, I have a business and I don't use social media. I don't even check my email. They have a big team who, you know, sometimes even the team is on social media. , and so they manage it for them or maybe, okay. They're not at all on social media, but they, , have, they have such, of fame that they can be on these big podcasts. And, you know, they have a book who's selling thousands of copies, things like that. And so it's. To me sounds kind of phony when they're saying, oh, I don't need, you know, please don't use social media. You're like, yeah. But how did you get to that point? You know, you nowadays, it it's a good tool to help you grow to a certain, , level in, in business. , just curious what,  Cassie: what you [00:17:00] think about that. I'm like a hundred percent on the same page and I've listened to so many of these, like. Very intriguing podcast titles of like quit social media, or you don't need social media. And there's always someone who's got three books under their belts or, you know, such a huge platform already where yeah, they are going on the biggest podcast ever, and even being on TV. And they've got such a profile or they're rising for the New York times and it's like, Fantastic. But you, I can't relate to you like you it's aspirational. Absolutely. But it's not practical. So I'm a hundred percent. Yeah. Feel exactly the same with that. And that's, that's the reality, isn't it? Those people I have yet to meet people who have not. Who are not at that stage who say that you don't need social media at all? Mm-hmm yeah.  Sarah: I would love for you to join the workshop because the, the co-host that I'm doing that with , is. with guy who's who's in, , the UK and she actually [00:18:00] says, no, I built my business without social media. And so I feel like, okay, you know, it's great to bring someone on like that. Who's like, no, there is. And, and certainly enough, you know, there's. Been a time where we didn't have social media and I I'm sure people build businesses all the time, but I agree with you now that we're in this age and all these tools exist, , why not learn to use them in a, in a healthy way. Right. So let's go back to what you were talking about, the lifestyle, the goals. And then when I kind of heard you say is like, well, what we first need to work on is your definition of success, right? Because that's another thing we are being fed on social media as well. And maybe from other people that we listen to is like, well, we have to have a certain business. , and so maybe it's time to actually, , look at that. So tell us how you work with, , your clients on, on that definition of.  Cassie: Yeah, that [00:19:00] that bit is always the first piece of work. Because if, if our goal is to remove things, as we are building a strategy, and to completely minimize what we're working on, you need to know what you're working towards. And often I've had. Situations in the past where people have ideas of what their lifestyle wants to be, what their business wants to be and what they wanna do on social media. And they don't align. , I remember one of the, the catalysts for me changing this was, I was working with a lady who she wanted community. She was all about community and I was like, fantastic goal. Okay. Right. And we dug into deeper as to what that man did everything, but essentially she's like, I just wanna thrive in community. So she's like talking about Facebook groups, talking about the interactions she was gonna have and all these. and then we looked at what her business goal was and what her lifestyle goal was. And when I [00:20:00] talk about lifestyle goals, I'm talking about that may be financial. It might be time. It might be where you want to be spending your energy. There are different things. And this woman in particular, she really wanted to have a cutoff point when she was on offline, when she was online, so that she was present for her kids' bathtime and meal times was with her family. She's like, I don't want it to be. This thing where I'm getting notifications in the evening, where I'm checking my phone, where I'm answering things, you know, I want to be very present for my kids and for my partner. I was like, fantastic. And then we dug into, okay, but if you want this community, what does that look like? In reality? Like what are the hours that are gonna be dedicated to this? And she wasn't in a position to outsource this and you cannot also argue that that's probably not the most authentic thing to do as well. , so she was in a position where she realized, okay, I'm gonna have to [00:21:00] dedicate so much time to building. Idea of a community that I wanted, and that is not in line with my lifestyle goals. So what would've happened had we pursued, had I ignored the lifestyle goals and just gone on to her social media goals. It, would've got to a point where she would not have continued to build that community because she, she wanted, , screen free time in the evening or. Even worse. She would've round continued to build this community and sacrificed that time of being present with her family. And either one of them is not good, you know, it's not sustainable and it doesn't make you fulfilled and happy because it's at odds with your lifestyle goals. And because social media is never. It's 24 7 and it doesn't sleep. And because it's on your phone and it's all encompassing like these are, I, I just can't see how you can't merge the two, because it does become part of your life. Especially as personal brands, we are sharing our lives, our thoughts, we are putting ourself out there in a very visible way. So [00:22:00] it needs to get, be in line with what your definition of success is, whether and that merges your lifestyle goals, your business goals and your social media goals. So, what did you  Sarah: end up doing with this lady who, you know, wanted both? She's like, I want the community, but I also want the cutoff point. What, what was.  Cassie: I did to her. I did to her what I do to everyone. Like my, the way I see my work is my job is not to tell you, okay, this is what you should do. My job is to inform you of, okay, this is your choice. If you were to build your. Definition of community as it is right now. Cuz we did end up changing what her definition of community was. But initially I was like, if you want this version of your community, then you will have to work X amount of hours in order to see that come to light for the next, however many months that would be, or you could not have. And you would have your time at home and you would [00:23:00] build this version of a community. And then that is, that is my job because then it's up to the individual to choose what they want, because everything, I, I really get frustrated when it's a. The marketers say that there's, you know, you can have it all. I was like, I just don't think that's very realistic. You know, there's we only have so many hours in a day, so many skills that we have, and of course we need to lean into them, but we need to prioritize. We need to compromise. We need to understand what is more important to me and how do I get there? Now, what we did end up with this lady is we changed what that community looked like. It wasn't. Full force. I wanna grow it at, to in this amount of months, it was a slow and steady build with less fewer platforms. So it could have been so much more quicker, but we just adjusted what that, , goal was to make it fit into her lifestyle, which gave her some breathing space. I love  Sarah: that. I love that you picked that [00:24:00] story. We could have, cuz it could be me. It could be my story. Right? , the, the humane marketing circle is the community that I know. That's my thing that I wanna grow. And yet, , yeah, I, I don't want to spend hours and hours. And I also know that, you know, the, this kind of community, , is not the one where you. People just join because I'm constantly PO posting quotes on Facebook. So I had to also think about that as like, okay, this is gonna be a slower growing community, but it's gonna be fine because it's the thing that I'm gonna do for the next 10 years. And, and so it really coming it's scary in a way, right. Coming close to that because all, all you hear everywhere. It's. Scale fast and you know, how can you get a hundred members in three months and, and all, and so sitting there and going, okay, here's what I want, my lifestyle goals. And, and that, that, that, that [00:25:00] then means that you have to kind of revisit your. Idea of success for your business goal. That's kind of like, yeah. It's, it's not easy. And I, I can see the benefit of having a partner like you to talk through this and not be alone and go, why isn't this thing growing? Do I have to do more? And it's a constant battle of do I put in more hours? Mm-hmm but N would you also agree that it's not necessarily because you put in more hours on social media? That you are gonna get more members or more sales or clients or something.  Cassie: Absolutely. Yeah. It's not just the hours. It's the energy as well. And, how that drains you. So yeah, part of my work as well goes into time, energy boundaries, skills, strengths, all of these things, because the foundation of what I do is return on investment and the investment is your time and energy. and if you are putting something in to something that really energizes [00:26:00] you, that makes brings you joy, that you're you're good at. And you really enjoy. Then that is gonna be a smaller investment with a greater return. But if you are putting your energy and time into something, you're maybe your skills aren't aligned to and you don't really enjoy it, that's gonna be such a labor intensive investments are put in, and you're probably not going to see the result that you would like. As opposed when you're jumping into something with enthusiasm. So it's all about balancing that return on investment. Yeah.  Sarah: I love that. On your site, you also say that you have a seasonal business and you know, we're in the middle of summer. And I also kind of work around the seasons and I summer is my favorite season. So I really make sure that I have lots of time off you're. One week away from a big move as well. So, , does that also play into how you, , kind of built your business around the seasons and maybe also the location?  Cassie: Yeah. Yeah. [00:27:00] We're moving to bonier in a week, which is crazy. Yeah, so there's, I built my seasonal business originally because I worked with a coach, And we, she helped me craft this because I found that my, my husband's a teacher and he would have these lovely long summers off. And summer's also my favorite season and you know, the sun shining and you're locked in your dark office and you're like, oh my gosh. , so he would come in and I'd be like, Sunny out. You wanna come out and, you know, I've got flexibility. I've got all this, cuz I run my own business, but the reality is I still need to work. Right. So I always was had this like friction of either saying no to him or saying yes. And what I ended up doing is okay, I've got immense privilege for being able to take that time off, but I would then work 12, 14 hour days afterwards to make up for. And it just was just very all over the place. You know, sometimes I'd be out having a great time. Then next day I'd be doing 12 hours. So, , essentially set up the seasonal business to, I closed my coaching program to new clients over the summer [00:28:00] because I found that out of all my services, my six months and three month coaching programs are very. Energy intensive. , as ever anyone knows who works with one-to-one clients on a long-term basis, you know, it's, you give a lot to them and you just, you are there for them throughout the whole time and while existing clients. And I have, , a relationship and they know how things work and we're, we're on a momentum here and it's, it's fine. I found new clients were very, It was a lot of input straight away in order to get them set up and be there for them and get them to fully understand how I work, how our systems work and get the ball rolling. So I thought, well, that is actually the, probably the biggest piece of work that I do that is very energy draining. So if I could remove that, I am. Doing a lot less work. That's some over the summer. And then the coaching clients I do have, you know, they won't all carry on throughout the whole summer. Some contracts might end, you know, [00:29:00] in July or June or something. And then I'd, I wouldn't take any more on, so I. Now I just do my, , VIP days or intensive, when I feel like it, when I, well, or when I need to pay the bills or , or when I feel like I want to, , want to do more work and I have the time and that has allowed more, a lot more flexibility in the summer. So yeah, that's my seasonal business. And. Obviously, it's a blessing now as I'm moving, cuz , yeah, I got a lot, lot to do. So , it's given me the space. What  Sarah: about your social media? Do you maintain the presence over the summer? Because, I'm I chose basically to be present on LinkedIn and let go of all the other platforms. , and yet I still, and I even, you know, have, , 12 years of, , a LinkedIn consulting business behind me. , but I still. Right now notice since I have shifted my approach to social media, I feel like this kind. Guilt, or almost a bit of shame when I look at the reach of my [00:30:00] posts, because obviously if you're not posting as often, , as you know, maybe before then the problem is as you know, the algorithms are like, you know, we can kind of forget about her and she's not there anymore. So how, yeah. How do you deal with the algorithms? Really? I think that's  Cassie: the. Question. Yeah. I have the same thing as you, thoughts of you with that, you know, and then again, it kind of what I did with that was again, go back to my definition of success and priorities and okay. My priority this summer is my, my lifestyle.  And again, I know that's a huge privilege, but that's what I, , chosen to prioritize. So. When I do look at the posts, I do posts it and it, they're not as good as previously. Of course I feel the same. It does good little sting in there. And you're like, oh, and you know, because you know that God, I know how to fix this. That's I have to be like, no, this is not a priority right now. And I think as long as I keep that alignment for my definition of success, they kind [00:31:00] of helps me sometimes . But in terms of that, what I do is I do try to, , prerecord podcasts. Mm-hmm therefore. I know that they're gonna come out throughout the summer and that means that's work that's already done, and I'm still gonna be visible and increase my brand awareness throughout the summer when I'm not as present. And for my own contents, I've massively scaled it down. The only thing that does not change is my own podcast. , and that's because it's, well, I, I enjoy it, but also it's still quite new. So I'm still, , Getting that quite established, but everything else in terms of posting I've scaled it right back. I will normally post once or twice a week. , and one of them is a podcast episode. , so in terms of original content, it might be once a week or it might not be. And I just go that way and I'm a firm believer. Working towards seasons and cycles when it comes to social media strategy. , I've got many clients who they really, they may want a, [00:32:00] give me a schedule, like what? And I want to stick to that. That makes me feel calm. That makes me feel in control, but it's very, very unlikely that very, not very often that I come across a client that will keep that schedule forever. Because what happens is life happens and people, their moods change, whether that's, you know, for, for different reasons or anything, life happening or whatever, and their moods change. And I really encourage people to lean into that. You know, if you feel that you wanna break, take a break, or if you feel that you've got more energy now, and you're feeling really creative. Up that ramp that up. If you feel life's very overwhelming and you wanna scale it back, scale it back. And I'm a big advocate for scaling back during the summer because people, your users, your audience have scaled back either because they're juggling kids now or in and work, or they're being pulled towards the out being outdoors versus here. Everyone's like. Being pulled in different directions in the summer. [00:33:00] I feel so if, and the data also shows that people are less, engaged when the sun is shining. So I'm thinking take that. Why not use it as an opportunity and take that time to scale back for your own for yourself as well? Yeah, so that's kind of how I work in seasons with my own marketing. Sarah: Mm. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for sharing that. The other thing you kind of talked about it is this whole idea of content creation, right? That a lot of social media strategists  Cassie: talk about,  Sarah: repurposing and, you know, you have to have your content calendar, , yeah. This whole idea of. Having a month's worth of content ahead of time. , I think we hear that message a lot. Is that also what you are suggesting to your clients? I heard you say, okay. Scale it down in the summer, but what about the rest of the year is, is that still the message that we, , that we need to apply in, in  Cassie: social media? Yeah. So honestly, , it is dependent completely on [00:34:00] individual. I have some clients that want to feel more in control of it and I would on the whole. I would recommend planning at least a fortnight in advance, just because you, you, you do wanna move your clients through a journey like throughout this, the different seasons of your marketing calendar, you will have things that you want to promote. You will have times when, , yeah, you have a workshop going on or you want to promote this one to one service or whatever that is. Therefore of course your, the strategy behind that needs to align with that goal. And by. Having something in advance. You're not, you're not able to take a step back and look at that holistically and go, am I actually moving people down that journey? So of course I would always ad advise that. But I think the thing that I always come back to as well is if you don't enjoy this, if you're not feeling joy and passion for what you're creating, you're not going to do it. Therefore, if, if I get you. [00:35:00] Take suck the life out of it as you will, then you're not gonna do it. I'd rather you do something than do nothing. So if it feels, if you feel like that is becoming draining for you, that's prescriptive. , this is the rules. This is how you do it. The guidelines of what you should be doing. Throw that out the window, just for three, six weeks, whatever that means and lean into joy, because that is how you're going to be consistent. Consistency doesn't mean, you know, having it doesn't mean posting on Tuesdays and Thursdays and Fridays every week. It consistency means. Just maintaining a visible presence and that can fluctuate. But as long as you're maintaining a presence online, you are being consistent. And sometimes that may mean that you are posting once a week. Sometimes that means you are posting four times a week or whatever that is, but I really do believe that if you take away the joy, then you're not going to post at all. And that's even more damaging to [00:36:00] your, , strategy long. Yeah. I'm so glad  Sarah: you, you mentioned that because I, I did notice myself, like during this summer, Most of the time I was looking at my LinkedIn feed and I'm like, I don't even wanna talk business in the summer. I'm like, can I just talk about the different flavors of ice cream and , and I guess I could have posted that, but I'm like, no, I'm just, I just wanna share that with my family and not post that on, on LinkedIn or, or any other platform. And so, so yeah, it it's really also the moods change, right? It's like, it's these fluctuations where it's like, no, I'm not in. Business is smooth right now. So yeah. I'm so glad you're, you're , helping your clients respect that and say, yeah, it has to be joyful because otherwise, yeah, you're not doing it at all. , I have my, my, , virtual assistant Mara, , always help me with, posting something personal, , on Mondays, cuz it. Something that [00:37:00] I, as a, you know, introvert, I'm like, it just doesn't come natural to me, but once I post it and, you know, take a picture or something, then I actually enjoy the interactions. And so I need that kind of extra, , reminder. She just kind of gives me this gentle nudge and I'm like, okay. Yeah. And, and then sometimes I don't, sometimes I'm like, I really don't feel like it. just, yeah.  Cassie: And that's okay. That's totally okay. And if that, if you are leaning into that's how you're able to maintain visibility, right. Because you have lean into that a bit more. Yeah.  Sarah: Well, this has been really great. Any. First steps for people who kind of want to get started on this road of digital minimalism with, with their social media, what would you  Cassie: recommend? They do? I'd really recommend reading the book by Cal Newports. Digital minimalism, , like I said, it's not really created for businesses, but the philosophy behind it is really interesting.  And then. If you are just starting out, like [00:38:00] the big question is always, you know, how can I remove anything? That's not supporting my definition of success. And in this context, we're talking about technology specifically social media, but that can feel like a very big question, like, gosh, okay, where do I start?  To me, I would just start small, you know, so what platforms are not giving you that return on investment? And again, we're talking as the investment of energy and time, and the return is, you know, the goals. Are you reaching those goals for what you're putting in? Now you either, if you feel like, no, it's not. And let's use LinkedIn as an example, you know, you're putting all this time and energy into it. You're not seeing the return. Of course you can remove it. And that is something that you should trial and maybe try it for six weeks, see how it goes. Try it for another six weeks, see how it goes. And then you can get a clearer picture. Is this really damaging my business or is it not? And I can assure you that six weeks is not going to, completely tarnish your business. So it's totally fine to experiment with that, but also if you [00:39:00] feel like, okay, I dunno if I'm ready for that big step of removing a platform. Okay, can you change the way that you create content? So if you find that, you know, writing is a big drain, it's not your skillset. It's not something that you enjoy. So therefore writing articles for LinkedIn is becoming really heavy for you. Could you change it and go, I really enjoy conversations. I might do a live series or a video series, and that is easier for me to create. It's more joyful and monitor the return on that. And it's just about. Balancing what you're putting in and what you're getting out. And it doesn't always have to mean taking something away. It's just changing it to a way, something that is easier and less of an investment for you. Mm-hmm . Yeah. I  Sarah: love that. And, and, and so good that you call it experiments because I think that's exactly what it is. It's like, well, try it. You know, I, I did that with my podcast. [00:40:00] I, you know, everybody says you have to have at least one episode per, per week. And it, I just noticed it became this factory of, you know, creating podcasts. And then I started accepting guests that I probably didn't align with a hundred percent. And so I'm like, no, I need to give myself permission to just slow it down and only do two podcasts per month. And I did that. And then, you know, Don't usually look at the numbers, but I thought, okay, it's been six months. Let me look at the numbers. The numbers didn't change. Like, wow, the downloads didn't change. And I was like, well, there you go. You know, it was an experiment and it worked and, and I bet you that, , You know, the same thing could happen on one of the social media platforms. If you just say, let me experiment and pause this one and see, you know, because in the end, the reason you're doing it for is for income, right? That's in the end, what we're trying to measure here. And, and [00:41:00] if that doesn't change anything, then, then. And yes, I agree. It's always, you know, take something off first, but then that frees up energy so that you can actually experiment with something else that gives you more joy.  Cassie: Understand. Yeah. About you changing up your podcast schedule, you made it sustainable because probably would've happened. If you didn't change that schedule. You may have stopped doing it altogether. Yeah. And then that's part of it. Mm-hmm yeah. You've lost your podcast, but by changing it and then going, you know what, I'm gonna lean into what feels better to me, I've managed to keep it going and that. Is the win because you are maintaining another platform that you enjoy and is bringing your return. So it's, I feel like a lot of people do feel that paralysis of, you know, it's like the sun cost fallacy. Right. You know, I've put so much into it. I don't wanna change it, but actually you have to think as a sustainability of it and by changing it, you will have more time to do it better. [00:42:00] And, um, yeah, really see the return. Yeah.  Sarah: This is so good.  Cassie: Thank you so much, Cassie. Oh, thank you for having me. You tell people,  Sarah: uh, where they can find you and, and, , yeah. How to connect with you.  Cassie: Yeah. So my website is Cassie widows dot code UK. And you find me on LinkedIn, Cassie widows and, , Instagram the same as well. Yeah, and I have the podcast called the social self podcast where I had Sarah on and we talk about how to be more intentional with your time online. , but yeah. Thank you so much, Sarah. It's been a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you for having me.  Sarah: Yeah, thank you. I have one last question that I ask all my guests and that is what are you grateful for today or this week? An important week just before you move.  Cassie: Yeah, I was thinking about this. , so I think I'm grateful for. Choice, like the privilege of choice. That is something I really do live by because it's not about, for me personally, it's not [00:43:00] freedom or flexibility or anything. It's the choice to have that, the choice to work, the choice to, , work less the choice to move the choice and I'm moving to Borneo. And the, yeah, that's what I'm most grateful for is that I have choice. Mm,  Sarah: wonderful. Yeah. I like choice too. I think we all do and, and choosing to have you on the podcast versus, you know, someone who's pitching me about how they built their six figure business in three weeks. so, yeah, it would've,  Cassie: I think it would've hit the wrong note with you. Yeah. yeah.  Sarah: Well, stay in touch. Okay. Thank  Cassie: you so much for being here. Thank you, Sarah. It's been a pleasure. Really appreciate it.

Adam: Hi Sarah.Sarah: Hi.Adam: Today we're talking about bucket list. Things you want to do before you die. Do you have anything?Sarah: Actually, no. I don't have a bucket list. And the reason why is because I've already done or I'm currently doing the things that I want to do. In addition, I like to live in the now, so like the present, like what's happening. So I really don't think of the distant futurevery much, just like what's in front of me.For example, I'm going to Singapore soon, in about 10 days. And I'm really looking forward to that and the new adventure and things that I'll get to do there.Adam: What sort of things do you have in mind to explore in Singapore?Sarah: First of all, swing dancing. My favorite kind of dance currently is Lindy hop swing dancing. And Singapore is one of the places in Asia that has several swing dance meet-up groups. So I look forward to dancing several of the nights while I'm there, but also trying all of the delicious food and just exploring a country that I've never been to.Adam: Wow, great. What are some of the things that you have wanted to do in the past that you have accomplished already?Sarah: I think living in foreign countries. I've already lived in two foreign countries and I plan on living in foreign countries probably the rest of my life. So that's a big one. And I think just everyday things, like finishing college and getting two master's degrees and being able to support myself. It's all things that are important to me.Adam: Yeah. Those are really great things. What are your two degrees in?Sarah: My first degree is in teaching English to speakers of other languages. This degree allows me to be able to live in other countries and to teach English. And then my other degree is in global studies. So it's like an inter-cultural degree where I learned about different cultures and religions.Adam: That's really great. Have you ever eaten anything exotic or had any really interesting experiences that most people might not have had when you're traveling to these different places and fulfilling your goals?Sarah: I've definitely eaten a lot of different things, most of which I'm not really sure what a lot of it was. The strangest probably – jellyfish, maybe. I'd also gotten a chance to ride a lot of different animals. I've ridden a camel, donkey, horse, elephant, and even an ostrich. So that's pretty exciting.Adam: Yeah. That's really interesting. Have you done any other extreme activities?Sarah: Yeah. I've been skydiving before. I've been volcano boarding. I'm trying to think what else I have done. I haven't been bungee jumping. I think that's probably one of the only ones that I haven't done as of right now. But I really have no desire to do that one, so.Adam: Wow. That's great. You've lived a good life.

Adam: Hi Sarah.Sarah: Hi.Adam: Today we're talking about bucket list. Things you want to do before you die. Do you have anything?Sarah: Actually, no. I don't have a bucket list. And the reason why is because I've already done or I'm currently doing the things that I want to do. In addition, I like to live in the now, so like the present, like what's happening. So I really don't think of the distant futurevery much, just like what's in front of me.For example, I'm going to Singapore soon, in about 10 days. And I'm really looking forward to that and the new adventure and things that I'll get to do there.Adam: What sort of things do you have in mind to explore in Singapore?Sarah: First of all, swing dancing. My favorite kind of dance currently is Lindy hop swing dancing. And Singapore is one of the places in Asia that has several swing dance meet-up groups. So I look forward to dancing several of the nights while I'm there, but also trying all of the delicious food and just exploring a country that I've never been to.Adam: Wow, great. What are some of the things that you have wanted to do in the past that you have accomplished already?Sarah: I think living in foreign countries. I've already lived in two foreign countries and I plan on living in foreign countries probably the rest of my life. So that's a big one. And I think just everyday things, like finishing college and getting two master's degrees and being able to support myself. It's all things that are important to me.Adam: Yeah. Those are really great things. What are your two degrees in?Sarah: My first degree is in teaching English to speakers of other languages. This degree allows me to be able to live in other countries and to teach English. And then my other degree is in global studies. So it's like an inter-cultural degree where I learned about different cultures and religions.Adam: That's really great. Have you ever eaten anything exotic or had any really interesting experiences that most people might not have had when you're traveling to these different places and fulfilling your goals?Sarah: I've definitely eaten a lot of different things, most of which I'm not really sure what a lot of it was. The strangest probably – jellyfish, maybe. I'd also gotten a chance to ride a lot of different animals. I've ridden a camel, donkey, horse, elephant, and even an ostrich. So that's pretty exciting.Adam: Yeah. That's really interesting. Have you done any other extreme activities?Sarah: Yeah. I've been skydiving before. I've been volcano boarding. I'm trying to think what else I have done. I haven't been bungee jumping. I think that's probably one of the only ones that I haven't done as of right now. But I really have no desire to do that one, so.Adam: Wow. That's great. You've lived a good life.

Adam: Hi Sarah.Sarah: Hi.Adam: Today we're talking about bucket list. Things you want to do before you die. Do you have anything?Sarah: Actually, no. I don't have a bucket list. And the reason why is because I've already done or I'm currently doing the things that I want to do. In addition, I like to live in the now, so like the present, like what's happening. So I really don't think of the distant futurevery much, just like what's in front of me.For example, I'm going to Singapore soon, in about 10 days. And I'm really looking forward to that and the new adventure and things that I'll get to do there.Adam: What sort of things do you have in mind to explore in Singapore?Sarah: First of all, swing dancing. My favorite kind of dance currently is Lindy hop swing dancing. And Singapore is one of the places in Asia that has several swing dance meet-up groups. So I look forward to dancing several of the nights while I'm there, but also trying all of the delicious food and just exploring a country that I've never been to.Adam: Wow, great. What are some of the things that you have wanted to do in the past that you have accomplished already?Sarah: I think living in foreign countries. I've already lived in two foreign countries and I plan on living in foreign countries probably the rest of my life. So that's a big one. And I think just everyday things, like finishing college and getting two master's degrees and being able to support myself. It's all things that are important to me.Adam: Yeah. Those are really great things. What are your two degrees in?Sarah: My first degree is in teaching English to speakers of other languages. This degree allows me to be able to live in other countries and to teach English. And then my other degree is in global studies. So it's like an inter-cultural degree where I learned about different cultures and religions.Adam: That's really great. Have you ever eaten anything exotic or had any really interesting experiences that most people might not have had when you're traveling to these different places and fulfilling your goals?Sarah: I've definitely eaten a lot of different things, most of which I'm not really sure what a lot of it was. The strangest probably – jellyfish, maybe. I'd also gotten a chance to ride a lot of different animals. I've ridden a camel, donkey, horse, elephant, and even an ostrich. So that's pretty exciting.Adam: Yeah. That's really interesting. Have you done any other extreme activities?Sarah: Yeah. I've been skydiving before. I've been volcano boarding. I'm trying to think what else I have done. I haven't been bungee jumping. I think that's probably one of the only ones that I haven't done as of right now. But I really have no desire to do that one, so.Adam: Wow. That's great. You've lived a good life.

Adam: Hi Sarah.Sarah: Hi.Adam: Today we're talking about do-overs. So if you had a time machine and you could go back to your college years, is there anything that you might change or do differently?Sarah: I really wish that I would have had the chance to study abroad. I chose the wrong major initially. I was a nursing major for two years, and worked really hard at a major I was really bad at. And then after two years, I switched schools and switched majors. And because of that, I had so many credits to take that I couldn't study abroad or do really any extra classes that were fun.Adam: Hmm, that must have been challenging. Where would you have liked to study abroad?Sarah: Really, anywhere. I've always loved to travel, so I would have been open to going anywhere.Adam: So you said you studied nursing, what would you have studied otherwise?Sarah: Well, I first went into nursing because everyone since I was really little told me that I would be a good nurse. So I thought it was my calling in life. And then after taking lots and lots of science classes, which I'm really bad at, I decided to switch majors to education. And then I ended up liking that major, so I'm really happy that I switched.Adam: Was there any other major that you would find interesting that you might study if you went back or you're satisfied with education?Sarah: I'm glad I did education because I really liked that work wise. But if I had to go with things that I'm interested in, I probably would have been some sort of art major. Both of my siblings are artists, so it kind of runs in the family a little bit.Adam: What kind of art do you like?Sarah: Mainly dance, but I also was really into music growing up, so musical instruments and singing.Adam: So, do you have any friends that were interested in art or dance that you had in those times?Sarah: Not really. No, actually.Adam: Do you wish that if you were in a group of people that like the similar things that you might have pursued different interests.Sarah: Hmm, definitely. I wish I would have done more with dance. I was a ballerina for 12 years. And I gave up on that when I was 14. So I got to the level where I either had to train professionally to do that for a job or stay in a class where the younger girls would keep moving up. And so at that time, I quit.And although I don't wish I was still doing ballet, I wish I would continued some kind of dance.Adam: Interesting.Adam: So Sarah, any funny haircuts or anything like that?Sarah: Actually, yes. One week before I moved away to college, I cut my hair boy-short. And then after that, like during my first semester, I'd dyed it all different shades of red. And my hair has actually been pretty much every link and every natural-ish color.Adam: Wow. How did your friends and family respond to your red hair?Sarah: My mom didn't like it so much. She thought I was going to die like a natural red color, but it was more of fuchsia red color. So she didn't like it very much. But my friends and like siblings understood because I've always been very different and didn't really care what other people thought about how I looked.Adam: How long did you like it?Sarah: For a while until I wanted change. I love change, so I'd always switch it to something else.Adam: Well, that's great. Thanks, Sarah.

Adam: Hi Sarah.Sarah: Hi.Adam: Today we're talking about do-overs. So if you had a time machine and you could go back to your college years, is there anything that you might change or do differently?Sarah: I really wish that I would have had the chance to study abroad. I chose the wrong major initially. I was a nursing major for two years, and worked really hard at a major I was really bad at. And then after two years, I switched schools and switched majors. And because of that, I had so many credits to take that I couldn't study abroad or do really any extra classes that were fun.Adam: Hmm, that must have been challenging. Where would you have liked to study abroad?Sarah: Really, anywhere. I've always loved to travel, so I would have been open to going anywhere.Adam: So you said you studied nursing, what would you have studied otherwise?Sarah: Well, I first went into nursing because everyone since I was really little told me that I would be a good nurse. So I thought it was my calling in life. And then after taking lots and lots of science classes, which I'm really bad at, I decided to switch majors to education. And then I ended up liking that major, so I'm really happy that I switched.Adam: Was there any other major that you would find interesting that you might study if you went back or you're satisfied with education?Sarah: I'm glad I did education because I really liked that work wise. But if I had to go with things that I'm interested in, I probably would have been some sort of art major. Both of my siblings are artists, so it kind of runs in the family a little bit.Adam: What kind of art do you like?Sarah: Mainly dance, but I also was really into music growing up, so musical instruments and singing.Adam: So, do you have any friends that were interested in art or dance that you had in those times?Sarah: Not really. No, actually.Adam: Do you wish that if you were in a group of people that like the similar things that you might have pursued different interests.Sarah: Hmm, definitely. I wish I would have done more with dance. I was a ballerina for 12 years. And I gave up on that when I was 14. So I got to the level where I either had to train professionally to do that for a job or stay in a class where the younger girls would keep moving up. And so at that time, I quit.And although I don't wish I was still doing ballet, I wish I would continued some kind of dance.Adam: Interesting.Adam: So Sarah, any funny haircuts or anything like that?Sarah: Actually, yes. One week before I moved away to college, I cut my hair boy-short. And then after that, like during my first semester, I'd dyed it all different shades of red. And my hair has actually been pretty much every link and every natural-ish color.Adam: Wow. How did your friends and family respond to your red hair?Sarah: My mom didn't like it so much. She thought I was going to die like a natural red color, but it was more of fuchsia red color. So she didn't like it very much. But my friends and like siblings understood because I've always been very different and didn't really care what other people thought about how I looked.Adam: How long did you like it?Sarah: For a while until I wanted change. I love change, so I'd always switch it to something else.Adam: Well, that's great. Thanks, Sarah.

Adam: Hi Sarah.Sarah: Hi.Adam: Today we're talking about do-overs. So if you had a time machine and you could go back to your college years, is there anything that you might change or do differently?Sarah: I really wish that I would have had the chance to study abroad. I chose the wrong major initially. I was a nursing major for two years, and worked really hard at a major I was really bad at. And then after two years, I switched schools and switched majors. And because of that, I had so many credits to take that I couldn't study abroad or do really any extra classes that were fun.Adam: Hmm, that must have been challenging. Where would you have liked to study abroad?Sarah: Really, anywhere. I've always loved to travel, so I would have been open to going anywhere.Adam: So you said you studied nursing, what would you have studied otherwise?Sarah: Well, I first went into nursing because everyone since I was really little told me that I would be a good nurse. So I thought it was my calling in life. And then after taking lots and lots of science classes, which I'm really bad at, I decided to switch majors to education. And then I ended up liking that major, so I'm really happy that I switched.Adam: Was there any other major that you would find interesting that you might study if you went back or you're satisfied with education?Sarah: I'm glad I did education because I really liked that work wise. But if I had to go with things that I'm interested in, I probably would have been some sort of art major. Both of my siblings are artists, so it kind of runs in the family a little bit.Adam: What kind of art do you like?Sarah: Mainly dance, but I also was really into music growing up, so musical instruments and singing.Adam: So, do you have any friends that were interested in art or dance that you had in those times?Sarah: Not really. No, actually.Adam: Do you wish that if you were in a group of people that like the similar things that you might have pursued different interests.Sarah: Hmm, definitely. I wish I would have done more with dance. I was a ballerina for 12 years. And I gave up on that when I was 14. So I got to the level where I either had to train professionally to do that for a job or stay in a class where the younger girls would keep moving up. And so at that time, I quit.And although I don't wish I was still doing ballet, I wish I would continued some kind of dance.Adam: Interesting.Adam: So Sarah, any funny haircuts or anything like that?Sarah: Actually, yes. One week before I moved away to college, I cut my hair boy-short. And then after that, like during my first semester, I'd dyed it all different shades of red. And my hair has actually been pretty much every link and every natural-ish color.Adam: Wow. How did your friends and family respond to your red hair?Sarah: My mom didn't like it so much. She thought I was going to die like a natural red color, but it was more of fuchsia red color. So she didn't like it very much. But my friends and like siblings understood because I've always been very different and didn't really care what other people thought about how I looked.Adam: How long did you like it?Sarah: For a while until I wanted change. I love change, so I'd always switch it to something else.Adam: Well, that's great. Thanks, Sarah.

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Resurrection Eggs: Creatively Sharing Christ Guest:                         Barbara Craft                                    From the series:       Resurrection Eggs: Creatively Sharing Christ (Day 1 of 1)  Bob: In 1994, a grandmother by the name of Barbara Craft heard about a way to use plastic Easter eggs to share the Easter story with friends, neighbors and children. She fell in love with the idea. Barbara: The idea that I like about this is you're getting the Bible in front of them—you're getting the Word of God. This is not just a story. We're using great things to tell a story. This is something—they may remember the donkey, the nails—but it's a way of engraving the Word on their heart and fulfilling Deuteronomy 6—you know, it says to talk about these things when you get up / when you're sitting in your house. This is, to me, what this project does. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, April 2nd. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We will hear some FamilyLife Today history today as we hear about the first time Barbara Craft shared with us the idea for what became Resurrection Eggs®. Stay tuned. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition. We have people who will pull us aside, from time to time; and they'll say to us: “You know who you guys ought to interview? You ought to have so-and-so as a guest on your program.” We often get some great recommendations from listeners who suggest someone that we ought to talk to. Dennis: We do. I agree. Bob: We try to dig and say: “Okay, what would our listeners be most interested in? What would be most helpful? What is the best kind of practical, biblical help we can give them related to marriage and family?”  I remember when somebody on our staff, more than 20 years ago, pulled me aside and said, “Do you know who you ought to interview?” And they told me about a grandma, who was on staff, here at FamilyLife. I have to confess to you, I thought, “Yeahhh, we're probably not going to do an interview with a grandma who's on staff.” You know? 2:00 Dennis: This is not just any grandma. This is Barbara Craft. She is a woman of the Word. She is a wife, a mom, a grandmother who has taken her role seriously. When she found out about a way to be able to bring the reality of Easter into her family—but also the families of her neighbors—she jumped all over it. Bob: This was a craft project she put together: —a basket full of plastic eggs—each one with a symbol of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. Dennis: There must have been 25 to 30 different eggs in the basket that she brought in. Bob: I just thought: “How are we going to talk about plastic eggs on a radio program? People can't see it. It's a nice idea—“ Dennis: Well, we always are interested in helping families have an outreach to others. Bob: And that's ultimately why we decided, “Let's go ahead and have Barbara on.” I remember thinking, in the back of my mind, “You know, if the interview doesn't go well, we don't have to use it.” Well, the interview went fine; didn't it? 3:00 Dennis: It went so well, in fact—just a little bit more to the story. I don't remember exactly how it occurred; but as we were interviewing her, it all made so much sense. Somehow, we put our heads together and said: “You know, we really can't put these eggs in a basket and ship them in the mail to listeners who want them. I would think people would like to have a dozen of these eggs of their own.”  We thought: “What if you took a carton and filled it full of these eggs—with the objects that are in them that tell the story of Easter—that help a mom and dad, grandma / grandpa, or help a young family share Christ in their neighborhood with the world's largest Easter egg party? What if we had something like that?” Well, we put together a few of them— Bob: We put together 3,000 sets. Dennis: Were you out there? Bob: I was not out there. Dennis: I was out there—at our kids' junior high cafeteria. We worked all Saturday. I prayed over those 3,000 sets—I said, “Lord, God, I pray these don't end up in our warehouse for the next 20 or 30 years.” 4:00 Bob: We were putting little donkeys into one egg, and putting coins in another egg. Dennis: A rock representing the stone that was put in front of Christ's grave in another, and then, of course, there was the easiest one to assemble of all—which had nothing in it. Bob: That's right, the empty egg which represents the tomb. And here's the thing—we did the 3,000 sets; and we also made available a list so, if anybody wanted to create their own set, they could just—“Here, you need to find a donkey, and you need to find a little pebble, you need to find the coins…” and all that. “Get your own plastic eggs.” Well, we had people calling us saying, “We want multiple sets of those.” Those 3,000 were gone like that! That first year, we wound up assembling an additional 7,000 to send out to our listeners. Dennis: And I'm going to tell our listeners—I was not there on the second Saturday they had to be assembled. In fact, I think we found someone—a bunch of teenagers to be able to—[Laughter] 5:00 Bob: [Laughter] You scheduled a weekend out of town when you heard that was happening, as I remember. Well, today, we thought it would be fun for our listeners to go back and hear that very first interview, from 20 years ago, when Barbara Craft—that grandmother who was on staff, here at FamilyLife—came into the studio and brought the very first Resurrection Eggs that we had ever seen. [Recorded Interview] Dennis: Our table is covered with eggs here. It's really quite festive here, Bob. Tell us: “What do all these eggs represent, Barbara?” and, “How did you come up with the idea of teaching about Easter through an object lesson like eggs?” Barbara: Well, I didn't come up with the idea. I'm not a creative-type person. I'm one that sees an idea and I can go with it. I was in our home, teaching ladies how to do a craft project—using paper bags and paper twists—and making this soft, frilly basket that you see in front of here now.  6:00 Well, we were making the baskets. One of the girls mentioned this story of telling the Easter story with eggs. I had never heard about it. The next thing I knew she sent me a paper. It had just some Scriptures and things that you can use and put inside a plastic egg and tell the Easter story. Right away, I started making baskets for my neighbors—making sets of eggs from this craft project, and putting them in there, and just giving them out to whomever I could. Dennis: And what you've done here—you've composed a list that starts with, really, Palm Sunday and objects associated with that. You've just followed, chronologically, all the events of Easter and the verses that accompany them. You've selected objects that illustrate each of those events. Let me just pull out one of these eggs here—this one here—[jingling sound]—three dimes. Okay, Barbara, what does that represent? 7:00 Barbara: Well, that represents the 30 pieces of silver that Judas betrayed Christ for. Dennis: And out, beside that, you've got Matthew 27:3-5 so the children—or for that matter, the adults—are getting the opportunity to go to the Scripture to really study the Easter story. Barbara: Yes. Bob: I bet kids would have a great time figuring out what each thing inside the egg represents. Barbara: I did it in a Sunday school class of three- and four-year-olds at our church. I hid the eggs, and then they came in. Of course, there's that adventure of finding the eggs. All the eggs have a number on them. Then, we sat around in a circle; and they would give me their egg, starting with number one. We would open it up, and then I would ask them what it was.  Again, this was three- and four-year-olds—they were so still. Of course, they are just so excited because they want to open their eggs. They want you to hurry up and get to theirs.  8:00 And then they wanted to hide them again. They wanted to do it again, and again, and the hour was gone. The idea that I like about this is—you're getting the Bible in front of them. You're getting the Word of God—this is not just a story. We're using great things to tell a story. It's a way of engraving the Word on their heart and fulfilling Deuteronomy 6—you know, it says to talk about these things when you get up / when you're sitting in your house. This is, to me, what this project does. Dennis: I think there is a great need today, in Christian families, to do more than just crack open this Book; but to get our kids diving into it afresh—discovering their own insights and talking about the relevance of these objects in their lives today. “What is the symbolism of the nails and the verse that goes along with that?”—Christ's death on the cross. We have hope because of this—and bringing that hope to our kids—and maybe even using these eggs as an opportunity to lead your kids to Christ. 9:00 Barbara: And then, when you come to this empty egg—and again, that representing that He is no longer in that tomb—and then telling them: “Where is He today? He is seated at the right hand of the Father.” Dennis: I think it is so easy to just assume our kids understand redemption: “What sent Jesus to the cross? Why did He have to die?” It was our sin—our breaking of God's law—our fallen nature that sent Christ to the cross—and really created a need for God to step out of eternity, in His Son, to redeem us back to Himself and to write our names in heaven. Barbara: What you have just done is what I'm hoping that this project will do. Having something like this that you can see and touch—it is fun, and it has a powerful message to each one. Dennis: It really does. Barbara Craft, you have helped us, today, to be able to focus on that message. 10:00 I want to thank you for doing that because we can make Easter a profoundly simple and yet powerful spiritual experience—not only for us—but for our children, as well, and pass on a legacy to the next generation. Barbara Rainey: One of the things that I think is neat about this is that there are different applications for using it. For instance, you could use it like an Advent wreath at Christmas—and use one egg per day or one object and verse per day—leading up to Easter. Or you could take the ones and just use them for the particular event the week of Easter, starting with the triumphal entry on the Sunday before. Then, you could use the objects that happened on the Thursday before Easter, and then the ones that illustrate what happened on Good Friday, and you could walk your way through Easter week.  I think that there are lots of different ways that a family could use this, depending on the ages of your children or how you wanted to celebrate Easter together. You could talk this through and try one one year and try another another year, and see what works best for your family.  11:00 Barbara: I think that is right—and if you have them all out—where they can see them during the day, and touch them, and play with them, or whatever they're going to do with this—then, again, they're reminded of the Scripture: “What does this sword represent, to me, about Easter?” Or you could do that sometime during the day—again, asking, “Well, what do you remember about that sword we talked about three days ago?” It's just that continual remembering and reminding that we're so often told to do in Scripture. We don't remember it the first time. Barbara Rainey: Right. Bob: During the Easter season, a family could use these eggs to really spark their family devotions, whether it's at breakfast every morning—having a different egg on the table and opening it up, talking about what's in there, reading the Scripture. Maybe, at dinner or after dinner—go in the living room and have it—but it would just be a great way to give children a visual connection with the story so they're not just hearing it told; but they're seeing it with the symbols, right there, before them. Barbara: Maybe, you could hide the egg. There's always that—children love that element of seeking and finding. So, maybe— 12:00 Dennis: What do you mean—“children”?  [Laughter] I love to go on scavenger hunts. Barbara: Yes, I do, too. I do, too. You can hide an egg someplace; and whoever finds it that day could tell the story—that evening, at dinner. They could tell the Scripture that's with that. There's just a variety—I love hearing this creativity. That's what I am just hoping is going to come about as a result of this. [Studio] Bob: Well, we've been back in the archives, listening to a program recorded more than 20 years ago. Dennis: With a friend—a dear, dear beloved friend, Barbara Craft. Bob: It's good to hear her voice; isn't it? Dennis: It is. It is, and she couldn't have fathomed that this would go on to see more than 1.5 million dozen of these eggs distributed, all the way around the world. Bob: If she could have fathomed that, she would have come in and said, “Let me show you my copyrighted Resurrection Eggs.” [Laughter] Dennis: No, I don't think she would have. Barbara was all about outreach—wanting to share Christ with people. Bob: She was. Dennis: That's what prompted her in the first place.  13:00 Not long after we had Barbara here in the studio, we made a phone call to another grandmother. This grandmother may have been interested in sharing the eggs with her grandchildren; but it ended up sounding, to me, like that she was really excited about sharing them with her adult children. Bob: Yes. Her name is Cindy. She's a friend of Barbara Craft's. Barbara had shared the idea with her. So, we called her and said, “Tell us what you thought about the Resurrection Eggs.” [Recorded Interview] Cindy: When Barbara asked me if I would like these, I thought, “This is kind of hokey, but I like the idea.” And she had gone to so much trouble. So, I took them; and then, after I had them—when Easter came, I thought, “This is how I can do something in the center of my table after we come home from lunch.” I just decorated the table with them, and they didn't ask too many questions about it. When it was over, I just said, “We have a game we're going to play.”  14:00 I said: “The eggs all have numbers on them. As you turn them up, we need to try to decide, whatever is in the egg: ‘What does that represent that has to do with the biblical account of Jesus' resurrection?'” I was amazed at how they enjoyed it. They had a great time with it. So, that is something that— I know now I can have on my table every Easter, and it won't make any difference. It will be wonderful now when the little ones can come and participate. But no, I used it with adult children. And they didn't know what all of them were. It took a little while; but even one of my children—that is not so much in church now, but very well-trained—he enjoyed that. I thought, “That is not cramming it down their throat.” Bob: Yes. Dennis: Cindy, I want to thank you for being on FamilyLife Today and sharing your story with us. Cindy: You're quite welcome. Bye-bye. 15:00 [Studio] Bob: That's a phone call we made 20 years ago to a grandma who was using Resurrection Eggs—not with her grandchildren—but with her adult children. Just in case listeners were wondering, the other voice they heard there was a young Dennis Rainey. [Laughter] Dennis: It did sound a lot younger; didn't it? [Laughter] There's another phone call we made to Leah. She had three daughters that she wanted to share the story of Easter with. Bob: And this became a tradition for her family. [Recorded Interview] Leah: I've been just mesmerized; and to this day, we've done it for probably four years—it's kind of a tradition. Bob: Now, how old were the girls the first time y'all did this? Leah: Probably two, four, and six. Bob: Do you do it on Easter? Leah: No, we kind of use the week before Easter to prepare our hearts to worship the risen Lord on Sunday. So, it's not just Sunday that we worship on and observe Easter. Dennis: Leah, how do you involve your husband, Gene, in the process of sharing the eggs with your children? 16:00 Leah: Well, one thing that is really neat to do is Gene will hide the eggs in a certain room, and have the children find the eggs. That way, it makes the story of Jesus' resurrection a treasure to find. If they find the eggs, that's their reward—the Word of God is their reward. It's just a very creative way to share the Easter story with children because they love to see what's inside of something. In one of the eggs is a nail. You read to your child about how they nailed Jesus to the cross. They would take that—and I remember my five-year-old—her face. She went, “Whoa, Mommy!” to see a nail. Then, they would place it on their hands—on the inside of their little palms—just to see what that felt like. [Emotion in voice]  17:00 I think that the nail is the most powerful item in the eggs—that visual that you can hold in your hand. You can feel it and to see it. It's very powerful. I think that it just brings it home, and it brings the understanding to a deeper level for a child. Bob: I want to talk to your kids. Leah: Oh, you do. Okay. Bob: Yes. Why don't we start with Rebekah? Rebekah: Hello? Bob: Hi, Rebekah. How are you? Rebekah: Fine, thank you. How are you? Bob: I'm fine. Listen, we wanted to talk to you. You know the special Easter eggs that your mommy has? Rebekah: Yes. Bob: Tell me what they are. Rebekah: Well, there are ten eggs, and they all tell the story. There will be a little paragraph that she says—that's a Bible verse. Then, we'll take turns reading it. One would be—it'd say, “He died on the cross,” and there'd be a wooden cross, or “Feed my sheep,” and there'd be a little lamb. Bob: Yes. Dennis: Rebekah, this is Mr. Rainey. Do you really like going through those eggs? 18:00 Rebekah: Yes! Bob: Can we talk to Rachel? Rebekah: Sure; one moment. Rachel: Hello? Dennis: Rachel. Rachel: Yes. Dennis: This is Mr. Rainey. How are you doing today? Rachel: Fine. Dennis: Your mom did something last Easter with some eggs. Do you remember that? Rachel: Yes. Dennis: Tell us about them. What do you do with those eggs? Rachel: Well, she'll read a verse, and we'll open it up, and see what's inside. Dennis: Like, what will be inside? Rachel: Like the cross where Jesus died, and like the empty egg. Dennis: Do you really like to do that? Rachel: Yes. Dennis: Why? Rachel: It's fun. Bob: Does it get boring when your parents bring out those eggs, or do you like it? Rachel: I like it. Bob: But, don't they make you sit down and listen? Rachel: Yes. Bob: But that's okay? Rachel: Yes! Bob: Tell you what. Can we talk to Sarah? Rachel: Sure. Bob: Okay, thanks. Sarah: Hello? Bob: Hi, Sarah? Sarah: Hi. Bob: How are you? Sarah: Fine. Bob: Are you? Do you know Mr. Rainey? Sarah: Yes. 19:00 Bob: Do you? Okay. Dennis: Hi, Sarah. This is Mr. Rainey. Do you remember the Easter eggs that your mom uses every year? Sarah: Yes, sir. Dennis: Do you like them? Sarah: Yes, sir. Dennis: Why do you like them? Sarah: Because they're fun to open. Bob: What kinds of things does she put in those eggs? Sarah: Money, the cross, a nail, the empty egg. Bob: You remember a lot of them. Sarah, can we talk to your mommy again? Sarah: Okay. Bob: Thanks. Dennis: Bye-bye. Leah: Hello? Bob: We'll probably have some listeners who will think about doing this with their kids at Easter time. Would you encourage them to? Leah: I really would! It's just such a simple but impactful way to share the Easter story—a creative way / a different way. Dennis: Well, Leah—thanks for being on the broadcast. Leah: Oh, sure. Bye-bye. [Studio] Bob: Well, again, it's fun to go back and listen to some of the early phone calls we made when we were first talking to moms about the idea of a set of eggs that they could use during Easter week to tell their children the story of the resurrection. 20:00 Dennis: It worked back then, and it's working today. We just decided we would take the resource and re-release it with a 20th Anniversary Edition. I think what was already excellent, and outstanding, and a whole lot of fun has really been moved up a notch. It's cool because the booklet that goes with the eggs is available both in English and Spanish. Bob: In fact, look at the back of your carton there—Resurrection Eggs—can you read what it says there on the back? Dennis: Not upside down. Bob: Look. Read that out loud to our listeners. Dennis: Are you talking about the English, of course; aren't you? Bob: Huevitos de Resurreccion™—so Resurrection Eggs. The carton comes with both English and Spanish so that listeners can use it in either setting. Dennis: Bob is flaunting two things there—one, his experience from San Antonio— Bob: Huevitos. 21:00 Dennis: There you go; and secondly, he's also reminding me of my Spanish and the grade I received. Bob: What grade did you get in Spanish? [Laughter] Dennis: It was in eighth grade—that was the year. Gratefully, they did pass me on to the ninth grade—but not because I excelled in the language of Spanish. Bob: I don't think you've said the grade yet. What was that grade that you got? Dennis: It was south of “D.” [Laughter] Bob: We, of course, have Resurrection Eggs in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. Our listeners can go, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com to order a set of these eggs to use, this year, at Easter time. Or if you live near a Christian bookstore, many Christian bookstores have Resurrection Eggs. I know Family Christian Store has them—I think Lifeway and Mardel have them. There are even Walmart®s, across America, that have Resurrection Eggs this year at Easter—just a great tool to use to share the story of Easter with children, with neighbors, with relatives.  22:00 Find out more. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the link that says, “Go Deeper,” at the top left-hand corner of the page. The information about Resurrection Eggs is available right there. You can order from us online. There is also information about the resources Barbara Rainey has been creating that can be used at Easter time to, not only share the story of Easter, but to beautifully decorate your home for the holiday, as well. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the link that says, “Go Deeper,” at the top left-hand corner of the page. There is information about these resources there. You can order from us, online; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY; 1-800-358-6329; that's 1-800- “F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then, the word, “TODAY.” Now, let me say a special word of thanks to those of you who are regular listeners to FamilyLife Today and have listened long enough to know that what we're all about, as a ministry, resonates with what you believe, as a family.  23:00 We are here to provide practical biblical help for your marriage and your family. We believe that if we can effectively develop godly families, those godly families can change the world, one home at a time. And we appreciate those of you who share in that mission and who help support the mission through your prayers and your financial contributions. If you can help us with a donation right now, we'd like to send you, as a thank-you gift, a set of three prayer cards—one that will give you specifics on how to pray more effectively for your husband, another card on how to pray for your wife, and then a third card for the two of you to use together to pray for your children. These are our way of saying: “Thank you for your support of the ministry. We really do appreciate your partnership.” Simply go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the button in the upper right-hand corner of the screen that says, “I Care.” You can make an online contribution; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY—1-800-358-6329. Make a donation over the phone, and ask for the prayer cards when you do that. 24:00 Or request the prayer cards and mail a check to FamilyLife Today at P O Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. Tomorrow, we'll hear more from people who have used Resurrection Eggs as a way to share the news of Easter with friends and family members. We'll talk more about that tomorrow. I hope you can join us. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2014 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

"Many women spend more on their clothes than they do on an annual vacation, and yet put more strategy on the vacation than the closet." -Sarah Moore Sarah Moore's "3 S" Strategy - Sort, Share, Stop: SORT: First, sort clothing to keep and get rid of, then sort it so you can store it easily in your closet. Sort into Yes, No, and Maybe. Get rid of the No pile. Then makes outfits with the rest. Either get rid of the things that don't make an outfit or commit to buying the other piece(s) you need. Store clothes as outfits so you never have to wonder what you're going to wear. Sort them out and hang them up, but get rid of the ratty things or clothes you won't wear again. Sort everything into categories, like working on it daily or weekly, depending on how much time you have available. Tops, bottoms, sweaters, dresses SHARE: Share the responsibility for laundry with other family members.  Let children help, even if its not perfect. Telling them not to do things when they don't do them perfectly is training them not to help. Only put away the clothes that you wear. Have the other people in your home put away their own clothes. (As long as the kids are old enough) Spouse won't help? Try trading household duties; they can do dishes and you do laundry for example.  If they aren't helping around the house, check out the book, "Drop the Ball," by Tiffany Dufu. It's a great book to help create balance with home chores. STOP: Stop bringing in more clothes so your home doesn't get cluttered again. Stop spending money on things you don't need. Remember the importance of shopping with purpose. Remember - Extra clothing comes into our closet when we didn't really need it, because we bonded with our friends over the experience of shopping for clothes. Bond with your friends at a park or a museum or out to lunch. Have an experience instead of spending money on things you don't need. Stop using spending money on things as your fun, and enjoy experiences instead.  Sarah's other tips: Thinking about "Sunk cost", leads to guilt and shame. If you've spent money, you feel like you need to keep the item so you feel like you haven't wasted the money. You can sell the clothes you don't wear to recoup the cost, or donate them and get a tax write off Get rid of the extra clothes you have "just in case" Get rid of those single socks A word from Sarah: "Hi, I'm Sarah Moore. I've been eliminating chaos since 1989! My left brain discovered a long time ago that it has the mind of a Lego master builder when it comes to filtering out all the busy work and time wasters of a process or project leaving only what is necessary to achieve the desired result. My right brain is a little woo and I believe that everything is energy. My left brain is OK with that because Einstein thought so too. Your thoughts are energy - they are electrical impulses traveling down neurons. Food is energy: plants fix the energy of the sun. But it's really easy to get that energy stuck. Ever had the same song playing over and over in your head all day? Exactly, Stuck energy. When you combine the two halves of my brain you get a project manager who has a laser focus on the critical path: the only bits of a project that actually need to get done to achieve the desired result. Whether that critical path is the a to z of a huge corporate project, a small entrepreneur's project or the pathway to getting dinner on the table with no fuss...I have the ability to cut through the fluff and leave only what truly matters. These days I prefer to work with overwhelmed women who have too much on their plates and piles of stuff threatening to take over their homes. I bring you discipline and simplicity to help you find balance. With a big helping of no excuses tough love too."   "Elegance is Elimination" Cristóbal Balenciaga, Fashion Designer   You can find Sarah Moore: Website: https://www.urbanearthmom.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/urbanearthmom/ Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/UrbanEarthMom/ FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/UrbanEarthMom Want to connect? You can find me at HardyMom.com Thank you for joining me, Jen p.s. Like the show? It would be great if you could help out by subscribing on your favorite podcast app. Our music is "A New Day," by Scott Holmes  

Do you ever feel like the lone employee in "Mom's Diner?" Sarah Moore shares how to end that, and enlist help to make meals fun again. Today Sarah Moore discussed: When it comes to meal planning - "simplify, simplify, simplify." Google meal plans so you don't have to come up with your own. Simple, easy, and healthy. Assign themes to each day: Pasta Monday, Taco Tuesday, burger day, pizza day, British food day, Indian food day, etc. Make the same theme each Monday, Tuesday, etc so you don't have to think about what you're making. Use the "bar" approach: salad bar, potato bar, taco bar, etc. You can buy all meals out on Saturday, then eat leftovers on Sunday and have no cooking at all! Give yourself permission to make the same thing twice a week if that's what works. Breakfast: Try making a "Chunky Monkey Bowl." You'll find the recipe on Sarah's website Urban Earth Mom. Don't make different things for every meal, or you'll feel like it's "Mom's Diner." Making the same thing for breakfast every day Monday through Friday to make things easier. Kids can make their own breakfast. Plan ahead and make it simple. On weekends she makes pancakes, Eggs Benedict, etc. and turns it into a family activity. Lunch: Eating leftovers from dinner is a simple way to cut down your cooking time. Sit down with each child and make a list of pre-approved lunch box options that can be mad quickly. Entrees, sides, and dessert are already decided, so it's easy for you to plan, and you know it's food they'll eat. Dinner: Always have dry pasta and frozen vegetables on hand for quick and health dinners. Use a no-cook sauce made from pantry and fridge staples, and add fish or meat. Rice can be cooked ahead and stored ahead in the freezer so it's instant. Quinoa cooks quickly Use dip and keep it in the fridge, like pesto, tapenade, or hummus. Use it for a sauce for your pasta, quinoa, or rice. Add veggies and meat and you're done! Make enough each evening to have enough for everyone to have lunch the next day. or make 3-4 times the normal amount of dinner and have the same thing the next day for lunch and dinner the night after that. Or freeze it for dinner another night. A word from Sarah: "Hi, I'm Sarah Moore. I've been eliminating chaos since 1989! My left brain discovered a long time ago that it has the mind of a Lego master builder when it comes to filtering out all the busy work and time wasters of a process or project leaving only what is necessary to achieve the desired result. My right brain is a little woo and I believe that everything is energy. My left brain is OK with that because Einstein thought so too. Your thoughts are energy - they are electrical impulses traveling down neurons. Food is energy: plants fix the energy of the sun. But it's really easy to get that energy stuck. Ever had the same song playing over and over in your head all day? Exactly, Stuck energy. When you combine the two halves of my brain you get a project manager who has a laser focus on the critical path: the only bits of a project that actually need to get done to achieve the desired result. Whether that critical path is the a to z of a huge corporate project, a small entrepreneur's project or the pathway to getting dinner on the table with no fuss...I have the ability to cut through the fluff and leave only what truly matters. These days I prefer to work with overwhelmed women who have too much on their plates and piles of stuff threatening to take over their homes. I bring you discipline and simplicity to help you find balance. With a big helping of no excuses tough love too."   You can find Sarah Moore: Website: https://www.urbanearthmom.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/urbanearthmom/ Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/UrbanEarthMom/ FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/UrbanEarthMom Want to connect? You can find me at HardyMom.com Thank you for joining me, Jen p.s. Like the show? It would be great if you could help out by subscribing on your favorite podcast app. Our music is "A New Day," by Scott Holmes This episode is sponsored by the book, "The Sick Mom's Guide to Having Fun Again: If I can do it, you can too!" available on Amazon.

Are you living in paperwork overwhelm? Do you have so many pieces of adorable children's artwork you just don't know what to do with it all?  Do you need a simple way to control papers? Then this is the episode for you! This series is different, because instead of an interview, Sarah Moore will be giving 4 separate master classes that make up the 4 Organization episodes. Today's master class is about Taming the Paper Monster. Sarah Moore's 3 Step Paper Reduction Strategy : 1. Stop the paper coming in 2. Put something in place that makes it easy to deal with the paper going forward 3. Get rid of what you already have Today Sarah Moore discussed: How to accomplish step 1: Asking to go paperless for bills Talk to your kids' school about sending the flyers electronically in emails, not send papers with kids that make a mess then get lost Get off of junk mail lists by going to this link: https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0262-stopping-unsolicited-mail-phone-calls-and-email How to accomplish step 2: Ambush the paper at the door, Sarah has a recycle bin, a shredder, and an action basket at the door. No more mail on the kitchen counters Use a 4 cube mail station with 1 cube for recycled paper, 1 for shredder, and 1 basket for action. Go through the action basket 2-3 times per week. Use a clip or basket for your kids to put their paperwork in when they walk through the door, that way they don't get lost or make a mess. Put that clip or basket on your mail station. Every day when her daughter comes home, Sarah has a "how was your day?" Conversation with her daughter, and her daughter puts her paperwork away at that time. Kids artwork: Art gets displayed in one place for one week, or until the space is full. As pieces are taken down, they go into a portfolio. Every season, a few pieces are chosen to keep forever. Or take pictures of all the art and create a photo book of all of it. That way you can save more pictures in a small space. You can use kids artwork for wrapping paper! How to accomplish step 3: Collect all paperwork and bring it to the coffee table or kitchen table so you can watch tv as you go through it. Get yourself a cup of tea to enjoy as you go through it. Get 2 boxes and a shredder/recycle bin 1 box of things to keep 1 box of actionable items (set aside a time each week to deal with them) Go through every piece of paper and put it in one of the 2 boxes   A word from Sarah: "Hi, I'm Sarah Moore. I've been eliminating chaos since 1989! My left brain discovered a long time ago that it has the mind of a Lego master builder when it comes to filtering out all the busy work and time wasters of a process or project leaving only what is necessary to achieve the desired result. My right brain is a little woo and I believe that everything is energy. My left brain is OK with that because Einstein thought so too. Your thoughts are energy - they are electrical impulses traveling down neurons. Food is energy: plants fix the energy of the sun. But it's really easy to get that energy stuck. Ever had the same song playing over and over in your head all day? Exactly, Stuck energy. When you combine the two halves of my brain you get a project manager who has a laser focus on the critical path: the only bits of a project that actually need to get done to achieve the desired result. Whether that critical path is the a to z of a huge corporate project, a small entrepreneur's project or the pathway to getting dinner on the table with no fuss...I have the ability to cut through the fluff and leave only what truly matters. These days I prefer to work with overwhelmed women who have too much on their plates and piles of stuff threatening to take over their homes. I bring you discipline and simplicity to help you find balance. With a big helping of no excuses tough love too." Next week we'll be talking about how to feed your family fast, cheap and healthy   You can find Sarah Moore: Website: https://www.urbanearthmom.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/urbanearthmom/ Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/UrbanEarthMom/ FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/UrbanEarthMom   Thank you for joining me today!  Want more? Go to HardyMom.com and you'll find ways to live well, grow, and enjoy your life again -with any health challenges. I'd love to hear what you think about this episode! Send me a message at HardyMom.com/contact Have a blessed week, Jen p.s. Like the show? Share with a friend! Our music is "A New Day," by Scott Holmes  

Do you ever wish your house was more organized?  Are you tired of clutter?  Then this is the series for you! We're starting it off with 5 simple ways to declutter with minimal energy. This series is different, because instead of an interview, Sarah Moore will be giving 4 separate master classes that make up the 4 Organization episodes. Sarah Moore's 5 Simple Steps to Decluttering : Let go of things mentally before you let go of them physically. Stop bringing new things into the house. Get the things you've decluttered out of your garage within a week, or it turns into garage clutter. Do a "drive-by" decluttering mission every day or every couple of days. When you have more energy, spend 20 minutes decluttering one thing; one drawer, one cabinet, or one bookshelf. Just 3-4 things per day is 100 per month! Keep things regularly put away throughout the week even if it's just 2 rooms. Have the kids help. You can make it a contest where the winner gets to choose the snack for the day. Today Sarah Moore discussed: How to declutter in 5 simple steps even if you have low energy. How to ditch the stress of a cluttered home, and conquer overwhelm. Before you let go of things physically, you have to let go of them emotionally. The things that clutter your home didn't magically appear. Only go to the mall, Target, Costco, etc. with a list and commit to just buying those things. No wandering around. Consider buying online. How to get the kids involved with decluttering. Try cleaning out a drawer at a time, you can take it with you to the table! (I never thought of that!) Empty a shelf completely and only put back what you need. Get rid of the rest. Get rid of the things you've decluttered each week. Don't let it just sit in the garage or it stays clutter! Listen to the episode to hear the deets. If you're overwhelmed and don't know where to start - walk through the house and put 3-4 things a day in a bag to donate or toss, that's 100 things a month, or 1,000 fewer things per year!   A word from Sarah: "Hi, I'm Sarah Moore. I've been eliminating chaos since 1989! My left brain discovered a long time ago that it has the mind of a Lego master builder when it comes to filtering out all the busy work and time wasters of a process or project leaving only what is necessary to achieve the desired result. My right brain is a little woo and I believe that everything is energy. My left brain is OK with that because Einstein thought so too. Your thoughts are energy - they are electrical impulses traveling down neurons. Food is energy: plants fix the energy of the sun. But it's really easy to get that energy stuck. Ever had the same song playing over and over in your head all day? Exactly, Stuck energy. When you combine the two halves of my brain you get a project manager who has a laser focus on the critical path: the only bits of a project that actually need to get done to achieve the desired result. Whether that critical path is the a to z of a huge corporate project, a small entrepreneur's project or the pathway to getting dinner on the table with no fuss...I have the ability to cut through the fluff and leave only what truly matters. These days I prefer to work with overwhelmed women who have too much on their plates and piles of stuff threatening to take over their homes. I bring you discipline and simplicity to help you find balance. With a big helping of no excuses tough love too." "Make taking a stroll in nature your default way to exercise and connect with each other."  -Sarah Moore    Sarah says to think about decluttering this way: Mentally let go! Decluttering can be like dieting. You lose 10 pounds, then you go back to eating the way you did before you were dieting, you'll just gain the weight back, and maybe even more. If you don't change the way you think and behave around stuff, all the decluttering becomes putting the house on a diet, and afterwards the house will rebound and be even more filled with stuff than when you started.   You can find Sarah Moore: Website: https://www.urbanearthmom.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/urbanearthmom/ Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/UrbanEarthMom/ FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/UrbanEarthMom   Want to connect? You can find me at HardyMom.com/contact Thank you for joining me, Jen   p.s. Like the show? It would be great if you could help out by subscribing on your favorite podcast app. Our music is "A New Day," by Scott Holmes    

How a Mindshift Changed One Blogger's Perspective This episode of our Blogging Breakthroughs series features eight-year blogger Sarah Cook. Her blog Sustainable Cooks shares recipes, gardening tips, and real food for food people. Sarah describes how a simple and practical mindshift recently ramped up her efforts as a blogger. She changed her mindset from “me” to “we”. Most bloggers put the emphasis on themselves, which is natural. But if you want to build a big audience and monetize your blog you should focus on your readers. You can still inject yourself into your blog. Just remember who is reading, what their lives are like, what role you play in their lives, and how you can help them. Create an avatar to learn more about your readers. If you have one, revisit and update it. Another option, depending on how brave you are, is to connect with your readers directly. Before each post Sarah asks herself, "How will this post improve my readers' lives?" Keep it real, and show your readers what normal life looks like. Being vulnerable is powerful. Knowing more about your readers will help drive and reveal your blog’s design, branding, marketing, monetization and content. Never forget that your readers are human beings, not just numbers. Links and Resources for How One Recipe Blogger Turned Her Blog Around with a Simple Mindshift: Sustainable Cooks How to Create a Reader Avatar for Your Blog (with free downloadable template) Pat Flynn’s Blog Further Listening My Mid-Life Crisis and the Power of Being Vulnerable on a Blog Courses Starting a Blog ProBlogger Pro – 31 Days to Build a Better Blog Join our Facebook group Full Transcript Expand to view full transcript Compress to smaller transcript view Darren: Welcome to episode 260 of the ProBlogger Podcast. My name's Darren Rowse and I'm the blogger behind problogger.com which is a blog, a podcast and a series of courses, eBooks and events even, to help you to become a better blogger. You can find more about ProBlogger at problogger.com. Now today, we're going into our blogger breakthrough series where we’re sharing stories of bloggers who have had breakthroughs in some way. We've had three of these previously and they've been really popular. I've had a lot of really positive feedback about those episodes. People seem to like to hear from normal bloggers. I’m not saying I'm not a normal blogger, but normal bloggers who are at different stages of their journey. Today, we've got a story from Sarah Cook. Sarah has a blog called Sustainable Cooks. I guess, a bit of a play on her name but also the topic as well. She writes about recipes, and gardening, and I guess doing food from a family perspective in realistic ways. She will introduce that much better than I did. I love this story. It's a really short one today and it's simple on some levels, but it's incredibly powerful. Sarah has been blogging for eight or so years now. Things have really ramped up in the last year as a result of a mindshift. Also something really practical that she did. As in similar stories, it is a mindshift type thing that needs to start with, but it's also a practical. I'm going to let Sarah share that story. As I said, it's not long. At the end, I want to come back and share a few thoughts and give you a free downloadable resource that you can also use to do the exact thing that Sarah did. You'll find a link to that on today's show notes, and you'll find a full transcription as well as links to Sarah's blog, the show notes are at problogger.com/podcast/260. If you want to look at Sarah's blog as you listen, she is at sustainablecooks.com. Sarah: Hi, I'm Sarah Cook from Seattle, Washington and my blog is Sustainable Cooks. You can find it at www.sustainable cooks.com. I've been blogging for eight years though only seriously in the last 11 to 12 months.

Welcome back to our weekend Cabral HouseCall shows! This is where we answer our community's wellness, weight loss, and anti-aging questions to help people get back on track! Check out today's questions: Kara: Hi Dr. Cabral, I purchased the greens for the time being assuming it was gluten free (I have celiac's) like your Equilibrium greens. After a few uses I was reading the label more closely and there is no gluten free certified mark on the container. I have stopped use but before I give the product away I wanted to get your opinion if you think greens is safe. Some websites said it was gluten free while others had no mention of it being gluten free or not. I know contamination can come from incorrect timing of harvesting wheat and barley grass. Sophia:  Hi Dr. Cabral/team, You were recommended to me as a good resource for potentially getting a second opinion on some medical issues I am having. I am a 25 yo pregnant female. The back story is I have always had hypothyroid symptoms but normal labs by standard western medicine guidelines (tsh) in August of 2017 I decided to see a naturopath who tested my thyroid antibodies and also found a large nodule on the left side of my thyroid. My antibody results were elevated indicative of hashimotos which runs in my family. The naturopath suggested I see an endocrinologist for evaluation of my nodule. I had an ultrasound done this January which was abnormal and suspicious of malignancy. I had an FNA to follow which again came back with abnormal but inconclusive results. My sample was sent for genetic pathology screening which came back with a BRAFV600E mutation 95% positive for malignancy. It is being recommended I have a complete thyroidectomy once the baby is born. I want to do what is best but something doesn’t sit right with me about taking my whole thyroid out. I am trying to educate myself as much as possible before October when I make my final decision. I’m mostly concerned about the impact not having a thyroid will have on my overall health and if I do need to have it removed what can I do to try and counter negative effects. I’m hoping for a second opinion of a complete thyroidectomy sounds reasonable in my case. Thank you!! Sarah: Hi! I came across Stephen Cabral’s podcasts a month ago and I’ve been watching everyday ever since :) Just wanted to let you guys know that they’ve been so so so helpful and I wish I had found them earlier.. anyways thank you for doing what you’re doing and here’s my question: Why do I get so bloated whenever I take my morning smoothie breakfast? Here’s usually what’s in my smoothie: frozen berries (sometimes frozen bananas) + 2 tablespoon pea protein + quarter avocado OR coconut milk + 1 pc dates/fig + kale + sprinkle of cinnamon powder and toppings are a mixture of chia seeds + activated nuts and seeds + goji berries/mulberries, unsweetened coconut flakes + buckwheat + occasional sprinkle of cacao nibs. I’m also on a paleo diet (8 months now) and I take digestive enzymes, gut repair supplement, probiotics and aloe vera juice to heal my gut. Initially when I first started having the breakfast smoothie I felt good but I’m not sure if it’s because I’ve been taking the breakfast smoothie too often that my body started to develop some kind of intolerances towards it? Thank you!! Sarah Ryan:  I recently took the Food Sensitivity Test and tested high for Dairy, Wheat Gluten, Eggs, Bakers & Brewers Yeast, and Alomonds. So I have a few questions: (1) I'm finding very hard to find foods that don't contain all of these, especially snacks, as most of the GF items I find are made with Almonds. Any suggestions on what i can eat or where i can find a list of good choices? There are only so many fruits and vegetables I can eat before I want to rip openn a bag of potato chips and eat the whole thing. (2) Is Gluten Free the same as Yeast Free? If not, please explain the difference and how to go about reading labels, what to look for, and suggestions on what to eat (see #1) (3) How do you calcualte the # of calories you should eat per day; AND; how do you calcualte the % ratio of Macros. I know you aren't supposed to self diagnose your bodytype, but I think I am an Endomorph / Mesomorph currently weighing 205. I'd like to get down to 195-200. I do intermitent fasting (16/8 protocol); my first meal is at 12:00 and I have the Daily Nutritional Support shake, next meal around 2:30-3:00, and dinner around 7:30. There are so many caluclations out there on the 'average' male. Can you help in explaining the right way to calcualte calories and % breakdown of MACROS (Protein / Fat / Carbs) Why do you need to calculate your macros? Unless you have a rigid fitness goal there’s no need to be so rigid. Check out all my previous prodcasts on how to make your plate 50-75% vegetables. Starch for weight gain. Chris: Hey Doctor Cabral! After finally healing my gut and now that I'm able to tolerate herbs such as ashwagandha which used to give me brain fog and anxiety, now I have no side affects and notice all the benefits finally! I am taking the hpa to help give me that extra boost to healing my adrenal fatigue and balance cortisol. My question is, I've heard that you should cycle adaptogens in order to prevent your body from getting used to it. With cycles such as 8 weeks on 4 weeks off. Any truth to this? If so should you cycle different adaptogens in the mean time? So far the herbs seem like there doing wonders for my body I just don't want to over do it and it lose it's affects. Thanks! Lee:  Hello Dr. Cabral, First of all, I just want to thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with the world. I find your story and what you do for others so inspiring. I am very grateful for your podcast! My question is related to hormones and cystic acne. I am almost 40 years old, not currently on birth control but recently had a situation in which I had to take the Plan B contraceptive. I really didn't want to do this, knowing how much this could mess with my hormones, etc but felt this was the best case scenario considering the alternative. This was about six weeks ago and for the past month I have been battling non-stop cystic acne on my chin and even a bit of weight gain/overall bloating & puffiness. I do have a history of cystic acne ( especially when I was on the pill years ago) but have cleared it for some time. I currently take probiotics, use natural skin care products and eat relatively clean. Is there anything I can do to reset my hormones and get back to normal? I'm just not sure where to start. Thank you in advance for your advice! All the best, Lee Kay Dee: Dear Doc, I have tried most everything and since my terminal diagnosis 7 years ago, and my refusal to accept modern medicine, I have been cancer clear and healed a LOT, BU.Y I am still confused and working hard to heal what is left. Due to an emergency operation to remove a very large rumour that was my ovary, I have had a reactive m sensitive body with early menopause. Only one ovary, yet my body seemed shocked and I have had hormonal and food and weight prob,ems since, after a lifetime of normal body weight. The only way it goes is if my diet is extremely basic. I also have to take some oestrogen and progesterone . I did have a functional medicine consultation and. Some tests, in which I was found to have lower levels than a menopausal woman, this was two years ago. I still get some hot flushes at night, but what was once life destroying symptoms , I have managed to get down to annoying and sleep interfering symptoms. I will eat plain veggies and some fish and a little fruit and maybe arrowroot and coconut flour and will improve, but if I have rice or any beans I start to get fatter, and swollen, also my mood takes a tumble. I did have signs of mould in our last house, and we moved out of concern for its effects. Sometimes my inflammation seems to be irrational, I felt joint pain at the sites of old injuries, I hurt my toe badly 3 years ago and the joint never fully healed it seems. I have a LOT of constipation and nothing I eat seems to help unless I take herbal colon formulas. I do also sometimes get mild palpitations at night, and wake hot, and have to wait for it to pass. Then it appears randomly, I will sleep through the night! My libido has suffered and I have had incredible downs at points. Also my hair is not as thick as it was and I have had some hair loss, but at the moment it’s growing well, that seems up and down too. They did take my appendix out as well as the ovary, even though I asked them to touch nothing else, and I do wonder if this has affected me adversely. I know if I don’t resolve these final issues, they could mount and make me sick again. So I reach out to you, because your extensive knowledge and gifted experience I have never done into contact with before. I believe full health is possible, not matter what your previous challenges and when I look back I wonder if, like many women , I have always had hornaonal issues? PMT, water retention, mood difficulties , the in later life the pill, the morning after pill etc. The cancer I had was pseudomyoxma peritonei, supposedly incurable, but I have been totally free of it just a few months after my diagnosis 7 years ago. This cancer supposedly starts in the appendix and travels to the ovary. I thank you in advance from the bottom of my heart, because all I have done and learned has bought me a long way, but I need some help on these last confusing difficulties .... Love and wishes Kay Dee PS. I listen to a LOT of podcasts and read a LOT, your podcast is exemplary. Thank you for tuning into today's Cabral HouseCall and be sure to check back tomorrow where we answer more of our community’s questions! - - - Specific Show Notes & Resources: http://StephenCabral.com/904 - - - Dr. Cabral's New Book, The Rain Barrel Effect https://amzn.to/2H0W7Ge - - - Join the Community & Get Your Questions Answered: http://CabralSupportGroup.com - - -   Dr. Cabral’s Most Popular Supplements: > “The Dr. Cabral Daily Protocol” (This is what Dr. Cabral does every day!) - - - > Dr. Cabral Detox  (The fastest way to get well, lose weight, and feel great!) - - - > Daily Nutritional Support Shake  (#1 “All-in-One recommendation in my practice) - - - > Daily Fruit & Vegetables Blend  (22 organic fruit & vegetables “greens powder”) - - - > CBD Oil  (Full-spectrum, 3rd part-tested & organically grown) - - - > Candida/Bacterial Overgrowth, Leaky Gut, Parasite & Speciality Supplement Packages - - - > See All Supplements: https://equilibriumnutrition.com/collections/supplements  - - -   Dr. Cabral’s Most Popular At-Home Lab Tests: > Hair Tissue Mineral Analysis (Test for mineral imbalances & heavy metal toxicity) - - - > Organic Acids Test (Test for 75 biomarkers including yeast & bacterial gut overgrowth, as well as vitamin levels) - - - > Thyroid + Adrenal + Hormone Test  (Discover your complete thyroid, adrenal, hormone, vitamin D & insulin levels) - - - > Adrenal + Hormone Test (Run your adrenal & hormone levels) - - - > Food Sensitivity Test (Find out your hidden food sensitivities) - - - > Omega-3 Test (Discover your levels of inflammation related to your omega-6 to omega-3 levels) - - - > Stool Test (Use this test to uncover any bacterial, h. 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Meser is defined as message or theme, as in the meser of a story, or the main idea behind the text. But it also relates to text messages and to tradition. Guy explains this and more on today's episode. Looking for the full Hebrew version of this episode? You'll find it on Patreon at patreon.com/streetwisehebrew  New Words and Expressions: Ha-hazai moser et ha-tahazit - The weatherman delivers the forecast - החזאי מוסר את התחזית Limsor mismachim - To give documents - למסור מסמכים Tsarich limsor et ha-bakasha - One needs to physically hand over the application. - צריך למסור את הבקשה Hi moseret gura - She gives away a female puppy - היא מוסרת גורה Limsor gur le-imutz - To give away a puppy for adoption - למסור גור לאימוץ Limsor kadur - Pass the ball - למסור כדור Kaduregel - Football, soccer - כדורגל Timsor, timseri, timseru - Pass (the ball) (imp.) - תמסור, תמסרי, תמסרו Lama lo masarta/masart/masartem? - Why didn’t you pass the ball? - למה לא מסרתָ/מסרתְ/מסרתם? Mesira - A pass of the ball - מסירה Eize mesira! - What a pass! - איזה מסירה! Limsor dash - To send regards to - למסור ד”ש Efshar lekabel et Sara? - May I speak to Sarah? - אפשר לקבל את שרה? Hi lo nimtset - She’s not in - היא לא נמצאת Limsor la mashehu? - Should I tell her something? - למסור לה משהו? Ma limsor? - What should I pass on? - מה למסור? Efshar limsor la vaksha she-Guy hitkasher? - Could you please tell her Guy called? - אפשר למסור לה בבקשה שגיא התקשר? Timsor lo she- - Tell him that - תמסור לו ש Timseri la she- - Tell her that - תמסרי לה ש Katavenu moser - Our correspondent says - כתבנו מוסר Meser - Main idea - מֶסֶר Lehagdir et ha-meser she-anachnu rotsim le-ha’avir be-emtsa’ut ha-mitug - Define the message that we want to convey through the branding - להגדיר את המסר שאנחנו רוצים להעביר באמצעות המיתוג Shi’uri sifrut - Literature lessons - שיעורי ספרות Ma ha-meser ba-sipur - What’s the idea behind the story - מה המסר בסיפור Misron - SMS - מסרון Hitmaser - Devoted oneself - התמסר Hem hitmasru - They played ‘catch’ - הם התמסרו Masur - Devoted - מסוּר Masoret - Tradition - מסורת Masoret yehudei maroko - The tradition of Moroccan Jews - מסורת יהודֵי מרוקו Nimsar - What was passed on, delivered - נמסר Me-av livno - From father to son - מאב לבנו   Playlist and clips: Gali Atari - Od Yom (lyrics) Galila moseret gura Football: Limsor kadur Football: What a pass Israeli Radio news: Katavenu moser Tipim: Meser, message, theme Misronim Tislam - Boker shel Keif (lyrics) Masoret Yehudei Maroko - Jo Amar Jo Amar

  Sarah: Hi everybody, this is Sarah Potter from “She Can Trade” and this is the SCT podcast, we are at episode 35, I have TJ here TJ: Good Morning Sarah: And today we are going to talk a little bit about how the market shapes in the summer and what to do through the summer months particularly in the market, so we are really in the middle of the summer now, we are moving into mid end of July and then especially as we roll into August, sometimes we can get questions about whether it’s worthwhile to actually trade in the summer or whether we should just avoid it and move back in the fall. And obviously since TJ and I are both trading, we would obviously suggest that yes, there are still great trades to be had in the market, it’s just about being aware of what’s happening in the market and adjusting your trade strategies according to what you are seeing as opposed to may be being too determined and focused in only looking for the same set up over and over again in the summer, so I will suggest the biggest thing that you need to think about summer is you need to be flexible, flexible with your mindset of what you see in the market and then what strategies can work accordingly as opposed to saying, I don’t have a trade calls, I do really well in calls, so you only look for is calls. So I don’t know how is your summer been so far TJ? TJ: So far it’s been great, trading has been still really great, I don’t know when to really step away from trading in this summer, I think there’s still lots of opportunity obviously, I think I agree with what you say, you do have to match your strategies and market conditions but I think that’s any time of the year, we really have to pay attention to what the markets are doing. I think it was two years ago, memory service we woke up two or three mornings in a row in August and I remember distinctly one morning, the S&P was down over a hundred points premarket and that was in August, that was supposed to be a slow summer time to trade and we were still seeing lots of volatility. Governments don’t shut down, countries don’t stop bickering over the summer, you know there is definitely presidential issues that will continue in September, they are not taking a back seat or a vacation, so I think there’s tons of events that can move the market and that we can trade, we are in earning season right now and it’s the summer that’s creating the volatility for a lot of stocks, so you know, I do agree that, we do need to pick some time to kind of step away and recharge and if that’s the slow week in the summer to recharge your batteries and come back and focus, then absolutely, but I think just a step away from the market because it’s summer, I don’t know, I think things have changed lately, I think with the retail trading and more and more online trading, the more retail traders that are out there trading the market, trading all it around, there is no real season now to it, what do you think? Sarah: yeah, especially, It’s to know that retail trading and we should mention that, right, we are professional retail traders, you are all retail traders by being involved in the market with someone who is not managing other people’s millions of dollars, you are basically trading for yourself, so that makes you retail trader. Remember, you are basically most likely trading with other retail traders as well and in fact, lot of people might be on vacation so they actually might be bumping up their trading more than ever because a lot of retail traders might have more time through December to actually focus on this, perhaps things are lighter for you at work and so you have more time to really focus on finding stocks or getting better at trading, finding more trades, all of those things can happen in the summer. They can actually be a really great time to test strategies too and I don’t know if it’s just about, depending on where you guys live, just having more sunshine, generally more people are happy through summer, may be if they are getting more because they are on vacation, I don’t know. But I think that means that, there’s lot more people interested in looking at the market and paying attention to it and sometimes when you are not as busy, you can still find trading opportunities as well. So certainly there’s a lots that we have in summer and just because the weather is warm outside, it doesn’t mean you can’t take your laptop outside and trading too right. TJ: Yeah, that’s absolutely right, I think you make a good point there, how many people have taken some vacation in the summer up at their cottage or the way they pull up their laptop at the dark right on the deck and actually spend time trading or in the markets where, they normally have that 9 to 5 job where they don’t have that time. So, definitely some advantages there, I do think that we need to discuss kind of few pointers and a few things that we kind of should look for in summer trading because, yes, we will have those weeks where, it is just, the volume is just so low and the markets really don’t move. So I think that’s the key point, it’s we need to look for volume, look for those low days, look for those sideways weeks and when we get into those weeks or those days of trading then absolutely those are days to maybe go and improve your golf game. I think we do need to pick and choose when we trade but there is still with 3000 stocks in the NYSE, there is still ample opportunity every week to find your four, five, six trades. Sarah: so on top of that, my tip would also be in terms of summer is, if you normally trade, let’s say six or eight trades every week, don’t go out to the market and say, I need to find my six or eight trades this week, it has to be six or eight and that’s what I mean by flexibility, this week you might find three because things are slow but next week you might have 14 on, so just be flexible with the numbers, don’t get too caught up in looking for a certain amounts of trades every week, you want to look for good quality trades. Another tip I think I would suggest is being flexible with the industries you are trading as well. Just because, say, you can’t find something in one industry and you love to let’s say only trade technology stocks but things are a little slow in that or they are just not as accountable as they usually are, then look through different industries. Summer can be a great time to try different areas and to try different stocks as well. Certainly the evidence you are looking for still looks the same, so I am still going to look for stocks that have a history to them, I am going to look for something that has a long term trend that I could take advantage of and I am going to mirror that with some other shorter terms charts to find nice entries and exits, I am going to look for a mixture of trades that have momentum as well as the mixture of trades that are pretty well standing still but I might do that in some new stocks that may be I don’t normally look at other times of the year. TJ: Yeah, absolutely, that makes sense and I think that’s the way I look at it as well, maybe I have been trading Amazon every week through the spring, may be Amazon is a stock that starts to slow down in the summer and July or August, may be it doesn’t, but if it does, I will just move to something else. I think it’s more about, we need to pay attention to and I think be aware of when, which stocks are slowing down and when they are slowing down and just having that flexibility to trade and not be stuck in one strategy or one stock and just keep doing the same trade over and over again for six weeks and when or why it stop working or why price isn’t moving as much as it did three weeks ago. Sarah: One thing though, I definitely want to mention in the summertime is, for people that look for trade set ups where you are looking for the whole of the market to change directions completely, sometimes because the volume is lower, those kinds of trades at the time is going to eat out a little bit, so what I mean by that is over the last few weeks, we have had a lot of stocks that have started to trend lower, so there’s a lot of people out there who I think are looking for everything to reverse and to start moving up higher again and what they are spending time is buying calls on dips and suggesting, ok, well this has to go up, this has to go up and I would just throw it out there in the summer because we are going to have some weeks that are going to move sideways, if that stock price has a lot of resistance specially on a weekly chart as a result of the last couple of weeks that are sold off, I would suggest it’s actually better to wait for those positions to get through that resistance first and then by the calls, so that traditional philosophy of buying on dips, it still good but I would suggest you really need to look at something like a weekly chart and just make sure that when the stock did sell off that there isn’t some established resistance there, because there is nothing worse than sitting in something like a call, so the assumption that’s going to move higher, but price just moves sideways through the summer because there is not enough volume to get that through that resistance. So may be waiting an extra week before you place trades like that, you could put them down on your short list but don’t buy, don’t get into calls and expect things to pop up right away when it’s moving into resistance through the summer especially. TJ: Right and I would like to ask you questions well, and we can discuss, this is about expiration and I think that we do, that’s another point that we have to, that trader should look for in the summer is expiration Fridays because it is a Friday, people are leaving work early, they are stopping trading, they have got other things to do on Fridays, that we will see, there is a tendency for a little bit of kind of a slow Friday where we are not getting the moves on Friday that we would see on a normal expiration day, but we can also see what happens is, we get a move and then it kind of just drifts sideways on low volume and then we will see at the end of the day where there is a counter trend move to that, so I think we do have to pay attention to on low volume Fridays to expiration and just keeping an eye on how things are moving and with low volume may be support and resistance that would have held, had there been a lot of traders trading at that levels, you may not hold as well, so depending that we see on a high volume day during the year might not happen in that low volume just because there is nobody trading, not enough people trading those levels to keep price above or below those key areas of support or resistance. Sarah: Yeah, that’s a good point, expiration can act a little differently in the summer, especially with long weekends too, that’s something to be aware of, but I think most people know that anyways those Fridays can be tricky days in particular, so if you are looking at trades and was thinking about now, we move into August and even into the end of August, and September, when you are setting up your trades also keep in mind of when that long weekend is, may be you want to take the week before or the week after as well and not even deal with that Friday because those don’t characteristically work as well as they would any other Friday throughout the year just because of volume things will now, that can be good or bad but if you want to increase the probability of what generally happens, then I would suggest taking the trade out to expire not on the long weekend, the Friday of the long weekend but take it out another week. TJ: yeah, that makes sense, absolutely that makes sense, so I guess leave that with one or two trade take aways that our listeners can use over the next few months, so for me, I think it would be watch volume, watch the ATR as well, how much is the stock per moving, is it in a quiet period, is it not in a quiet period and just make that you are trading according to what the stock’s dealing, not what the stock has done three or four months ago, what it’s actually doing right now this week, today. Sarah: Well, on that and I might may be just agree a little bit, is that I want to definitely be trading only stocks that have lots of history, so that is also very helpful because I do want to know what it has done in the past, I do want to use the but I also need to be setting up my trades to be realistic about what’s going on and you are right, like if it hasn’t happened, may be things to happen the fall, you see things move more than you do in the summer, you don’t expect that the price is going to move like it does in the fall, but we can still expect that it will move as it normally does through the summer time, so you can go back in history and see that stocks do still move in the summer and we still can trade those ones, but I would definitely stay away from newer stocks, I want to take stocks that are trending nicely and then I think my biggest step is looking for trades that are already moving in that direction as opposed to looking for trades that are going to switch directions, you are going to have much more probability of success in the summer because we don’t really know which week or day is going to be slow, we can’t anticipate but that will happen though because it is summer time, so generally trading in the same direction that it’s already moving in is helpful without having to do with any resistance, save the trades for pops and momentums into the fall and into the winter. Alright, another great podcast, I look forward to see you all, remember you can see us trading live in the live trading room at Shecantrade.com and all of your reviews are really helpful up on iTunes and anywhere you can post them. Happy trading everybody.  

Sarah: Hi everybody this is Sarah Potter from she can trade. And this is SCT podcast. We are at episode 34. Today's discussion is going to be focused around earnings and specifically how do you adjust and trade sorry how do you adjust and focus on your trades through that earning season. Obviously we'll talk a little bit about actually placing trades for earnings as a result of those. But also what do you do with all your other trades what to expect in the market when we have to go through an earnings season. So I have T.J. here. T.J: Hello! Sarah: And we're going to discuss this together. I think it'll be interesting also to hear our various perspectives on these kinds of things. So let's start off with a little kind of a definition of a basically an idea of what is earnings and how do you basically think the market moves through earnings season versus when we're not in earnings. T.J: All right. So earnings we're talking about corporate earnings so every quarter financials companies release their financials and there's a lot of anticipation and a lot of excitement around the numbers or are sales up or sales down. Our earnings up earnings down how’s the company doing and obviously how does that link the stock price. Well, if you're a fundamental investor obviously the more the company's earnings and the better their financial ratios the higher the stock price. So people look for those numbers they look. They read through them they look for a lot of details to see whether the stock price is accurate. If it's a fair representation of where the stock should be trading and if not obviously do they think the stock price should be higher or lower? And the reason we need to watch for earnings is because it's a high volatility event. It's a pretty binary event. So the day before the earnings are announced or the day of there's excitement earnings are announced and as soon as the numbers come out you generally see a decent a big move in the in the stock's price either up or down. So what we need to do is options traders are we need to look for two things coming into earnings. One is we need to look for increased volatility. So we will see on our options chain that the week of earnings and especially coming into the day of earnings the implied volatility of that stock will increase. The other thing we need to watch out for is obviously if we're holding options positions through earnings so if we have put or a call or a spread or any trade that expires after the earnings date that that earnings date can significantly influence the price of the stock. And we just need to be aware of of those potential kind of potential influences when we go through earnings. So Sarah are there any websites or how do you find out, what do you look for where do you look to see when companies are going to have earnings. Sarah: Yes, so I'm going to SCT up my trades differently through the earnings season than I will other times. And I do think that it's very important to always be paying attention to looking for when those earnings announcements are going to be because it's really going to change the flavor of how that stock is moving. So you guys know when we're trading in the trading room you'll often see us looking at the history of price how it's moving in relation to the broad market and those are really ways that we can identify opportunities to trade. But when we have earnings and earnings season that that announcement is going to change things. It's gonna do it also leading up to it. So you'll notice that I will still trade stocks a couple weeks before their earnings but we're gonna have to deal with higher implied volatility and if I'm buying a collar put I'm gonna have to deal with paying more than what I usually would in anticipation of that. And now a lot of times I can trade really well earnings actually before their earnings announcements so there's some good trades there when we look at how that stock has been behaving moving up to his announcement. We might have an expiry after the earnings but we can definitely take an opportunity to take advantage of a move prior to earnings. So generally stocks especially the more and more there in the media will have a nice move prior to its earnings announcement so we could definitely capitalize on that. So I mean it's tough to find them though right it's not about just okay well it's the next quarter. So all the stocks are gonna be moving because they have earnings announcements, there's going to be times when those stocks actually don't move they're gonna have less of a reaction than what market makers had anticipated would be in that option. And so that's also something to be paying attention to but when we're first looking for trades you can look at something like Yahoo Finance or a market watch or I think actually even some trading brokerage platforms have earnings announcements in them if I am correct on that. Did that do they have earnings announcements right in the platform? T.J: A lot of platforms do. Definitely they do have the earnings dates. Obviously the other one too is nasdaq.com. They list the earnings dates you do have to generally current earnings date. If I'm going to be trading the earnings and I really need to make sure that it is that exact date whether it's before the market or after the close. I generally check two different sources because you'll find out as well if you look comb through earnings dates that different websites list may have a day earlier a couple days later. It may not always be that accurate. So I do like to double check there the one thing I do like about earnings I guess we can real really get into some strategies is what happens at earnings? There's two things there's the actual result of what happens and there's a move based on the result of what happens but there's also a move based on the expectations and that's how most stocks move. So if Nike moves up say they've got 75 cents per share of earnings and Nike so if the expectation was only 50 then that look great stocks gonna move up. If expectations were say 85 or 90 cents then the stock could move down as well so we can't look at just the absolute number. It has to be we have to look at expectations we have to look at was it sales was it revenue how do those compare? And I think that's really what makes kind of earnings such an exciting time because there's so many variables involved. So with so many variables, so many inputs, so many unknowns what are some strategies that we can look at to give us kind of a shot at the best outcome because obviously saying hey I think let me guess I think the stocks gonna go up after earnings that's really a 50-50 trade at best guessing in the direction and we'll probably most likely guess in the wrong direction. So what can we do obviously out of the money credit spreads those are that's a great way to trade earnings you can limit your downside on that by keeping this spread nice and tight so maybe you don't want to do a five or ten dollar spread maybe you want to do a dollar or 250 wide spread. Keep your risk reasonable look for something out of the money as standard and a hat 1.5 standard deviation away staying wait far away from where the expected move is on that earnings announcement. Same thing with iron condors those work really well as well you can also just I mean you can also sell straddles. You can sell a strangle they work out really well again you're playing to the fact that the market thinks there's gonna be a bigger move and then really what's priced in and that's usually what happens. The trouble is they're unlimited loss. So we do have to be careful with that and if we are trading strategies where there is no stop-loss on them or where there is no limitation on what you can lose, we do need to be very careful because nine times out of 10 you're fine but those one or two trades where the earnings is two or three times the expected move. You might see yourself in a loss situation but I do think that there is a lot of opportunity out there to trade earnings. We just have to come at it with kind of a from a standpoint of this is these are some fun extra trades that we're doing. This isn't bread and butter meat and potatoes this isn't how I generate my reliable weekly income. Sarah: Yeah, I wanted to mention that so when you're trading earnings I think the biggest tip is that you don't want to expect that all of your earnings trades are going to work and I think you need to kind of account for that. So when you're SCTting up trade strategies through earnings let's say you're placing one earnings trade a week through the earnings season that if you look at the collective of all of those at the end you can't have a goal of making eighty percent of those work. Because they won't because those trades at the end of the day are really more 50-50 trades. So as long as you're realistic about that and if you test the strategy over different quarters through the year and let's say you're coming out ahead sixty-five percent of your trades are right through earnings then that is a time that that you want to be adding all more contracts but you certainly want to test that through more than one quarter. So trading earnings is fun because yes it's pretty hyped up everyone talks about it. There's all this great opportunity, absolutely but remember many people don't talk they're losing trades. They only talk about their winning trades and it's with earnings you're gonna have winners and losers to betting regardless of what strategy you pick. But you can still make it work as long as you're very aware of what your percentage is as you move through each earning season. And so perhaps a goal closer to about 65% so you're getting more winners than losers so that overall you're still coming out with profit is important you don't want to just put trades on. And just pay commissions or come out at zero no your opportunity cost is important as well you've spent time looking for those trades and that's really relevant as well. T.J: Yeah, exactly and I think that is I think that's the key to trading is everybody tries to do the same thing. And I think if you have to find something that works for how you feel comfortable trading and if earnings is a strategy that you can make money at that's fantastic I mean that that's great that's what you need to be focusing on. For somebody else doing the exact same trades they might not look at it the same way or be able to enter or exit at the same time and they may not, they may do the same trades but not but end up losing money on that series of trades. So it's really something that's very personalized and if you can make it work fantastic you just need to realize that with earnings there is a ton of anticipated and unanticipated things that are happening. And it makes it really exciting and there's that potential to make to make some really quick money. As you make that money you place the trade five minutes before earnings are released at five minutes after four and it's usually either max loss or max profit. There's usually not a lot of difference in between and if that's how you like to trade. Then yeah, what earnings is something that you can dip your toe into. Sarah: Yeah, I think that's a good point let's end on that so we're moving into earnings season now so there's lots of opportunity and I think TJ's got some good examples here on how to kind of keep that risk a little tighter and I do like the idea of still trading but trading out of the money. And keeping that spread a little tighter so that if you some of those trades work great, if they don't that's fine. You're not blowing up any accounts. So look forward to you guys remember we do have our live trading room which is the opportunity for you to see both of us trade live all the time showing our real accounts real, trades, real money. Look forward to seeing you there and happy trading everybody.  

Sarah: “Hi everybody, this is Sarah Potter, from She Can Trade. This is the SCT Podcast, and this is episode 32. Very excited to have you all here, the markets have been moving quite a bit lately, so we’ve had a number of really nice trades in the trading room at She Can Trade. So I have TJ here : TJ: “Hello!” Sarah: “And today’s topic, we’re going to talk about the differences, the advantages/disadvantages of weekly options versus monthly options. Now, you guys all know, (who’ve been following me and TJ in the trading room) that we do a lot of weekly options. We do that because they produce really great results. But we’re going to get into it in a little bit more detail today, why we do that, and what is [sic] the main differences between weeklies and monthlies. So, I think we should kind of start it all off with just kind of giving a bit of context about weekly options, and, for those of you who’ve been trading a while, weekly options is a relatively new feature for trade. I think it’s really only been around, what, three, four years? Since they really introduced weekly options. And really, it’s only been the last couple of years that it’s really gaining in popularity. What I've found is when I go and talk to different people, whether they’re from the COE, or I’m doing different talks, is a lot of professionals, a lot of them out there who will trade weekly options with their own money. I think that’s a really glaring great advantage right there, if you talk to a lot of professional people who are always making money from the market, and where they choose to put their money is in weekly options, to me is just a first advantage that’s’ very obvious as well. If they can make money, we can make money, we can all do well using weekly options. So, that’s something that I think is a pretty good advantage. And then, obviously, thinking about the fact that there’s [sic]lots of people trading it, so weekly options are quite liquid. That can sometimes be a good advantage for everybody when you’re trading; because you want to always have somebody to go back and forth with. So TJ, have you ever had that occasion where you’ve been trading in an option and the stock or the underlying might have moved in the direction you want, but the option doesn’t necessarily produce the financial results that you want?” Sarah: “Ok, well this has happened to me, which is why I was kind of bringing it up, so sometimes when you’re getting involved in trading options that don’t have the same volume, sometimes the stocks can look so enticing on a chart, it looks really good to trade. So, I’ll go and trade the option, but sometimes I get caught in being involved in something that I’ve made a little bit of money in, but had I done something like Apple, or Facebook, or something in a weekly option, then generally I would have made more money in that stock as opposed to something that doesn’t get traded back and forth. There’s nothing more frustrating about being involved in a chart, when you see, and you look at it, and it’s taking off, but that option strike that you traded isn’t trading as much as you want. So I kind of find that weekly options, because there are lots of people trading them, make it easier to get in and out of trades. TJ: Yeah, I think you’ve brought up a good point in that, with the popularity of weekly options, there is a ton of volume in the weeklies. You’ll almost see that in a lot of stocks, there’s as much volume in the weeklies as there is the traditional monthly expiration, in the third week of the month. Some stocks you do see a difference in open interests in volume in the monthlies, but, for a lot of the big stocks, the Amazons, the Googles, people are trading the weeklies and there is a ton of volume, there’s a ton of liquidity, you’re getting great fills in the weeklies, you’re getting all the advantages of a traditional option, but you’re able to trade those options four times a month. So, I think the discrepancy, the disparity between a weekly and a monthly expiration is that gap is narrowing, and really, we should be thinking of monthlies as just another expiration, as just another weekly expiration. Whether it’s the first week of the month or the third week of the month, that expiration for options is really all the same. Sometimes on the monthlies you’ll see a little bit of difference in terms of hitting or in terms of volatility on expiration day, just because it is traditionally the monthly expiration. You also get (on the monthlies) you’ll get contract rollover, you’ll get other types of options, not just equity options expiring as well on some of those dates. So, sometimes there is a little bit of difference but I would argue that right now, the gap between the weeklies and the monthlies is really closing and we just need to realize that yeah, you know what, we’re trading an option. Also, you know, I don’t have the stats with me, but most of the stocks on the S&P 500 right now have weekly options as well, and even now I mean if you look, we’ve started to (on the options on futures, on the cash settle indexes like the SPX) we’re now having three expiration dates per week. There’s sometimes with the SPX a Monday and a Wednesday expiration as well, so, the Exchanges have really looked to add product, and to give people really a lot of, you know, advantages of variety. What do you think the advantages of trading the weeklies are? Trading a short term? I mean, I think one of the biggest advantages for me is just how much the market is moving. I’m able to pick a smaller market trend and and trade that micro-trend that week and not have to, you know, sit through a weekend, or two weekends until the option expires.” Sarah: “Yeah, I mean, the market likes to move, right? I’ll make money because everything goes up and down. So I think when you have more choices of when something expires, you’re able to tailor your trade a little bit more, like almost refine it more, because you can make more money in that, by getting in and out of those trades more often and looking for opportunities to really pop. Of course it depends on the strategy you’re using but rather than sitting in something, like let’s say doing a credit spread on a monthly option, which really doesn’t have the premium decay acceleration that we’re looking for, that you can really take advantage of in a weekly option, it just, to me, seems like you have far less risk. You just analyze and create the reasons for why you want to enter something like the credit spread in the first place, and then you get to place your trade and have an accelerated amount of premium decay in the weekly, as opposed to the monthly where, sure you might say ‘oh yeah, you can get more credit’, but you’re just sitting in it, like you’re just sitting there, a week, or two, and nothing’s really happening. I also think there’s a little bit more ‘give’ in a weekly option versus the monthly. So, with monthlies, let’s just talk credit spreads first : With monthlies, the credit spread has to, um, I think you have to be better at the direction, almost. You have to be pretty sure that, if you think a stock is going down, and you’re selling the call credit spread, you really need that stock to go down, because that’s where you’re going to see the premium come out and where you’re going to make some money off that trade. Versus, in the weekly option, because you already have an accelerated amount of premium decay, you can kind of be a little wrong. The stock can just stay still, and you can still make money in a short amount of time, which I think is so key. You don’t really have that advantage with monthlies. What are some advantages, you think? Let’s talk specifically in terms of strategies like credit spreads or premium time trades.” TJ: “Yeah, as we mentioned before I think the advantage to the weeklies is just – I can get in a trade Wednesday or Thursday that expires Friday, and I can get in that trade and I can pick up, say, 30 cents a contract on a credit spread. If I go out a month, I may be able to get 50 or 60 cents, so it almost, to me, makes more sense to be in the trade a day or two, or three days, rather than three or four weeks, and do that same trade week in and week out, and even generate a little bit more in terms of, you know, if the strategy is working out and more credit – 30 cents a week times 3 or 4 weeks versus trying to get 50 or 60 cents out on the next monthly expiration. I think the advantage is that over those three weeks or four weeks that you’re trading, the market isn’t necessarily doing the same thing every week and you can tailor your trades. If I’m trading Wednesday and Friday there’s less of a chance of the market having a big move or abruptly changing direction than if I’m trading this week for three weeks out. I think we’ve seen it in the S&P, I mean everything looks great, we’re above the 21, we’re above the 8, we’re pushing higher Monday Tuesday Wednesday. Thursday we drop and Friday we drop and it’s completely changed how the market looks that week and by trading a shorter term I think we’re able to stay on the right side of the trend more often than not.” Sarah: “Yeah, and that’s a good point too: the market has been moving around quite a bit, and you don’t want to be stuck in trades in the wrong direction. There’s not much you can do with those other than lose money. Whereas, if you’re getting in and out and actually cashing out of your trades, profiting on them and putting that money in your pocket, and then the following week you look to do it again, you can work with whatever direction the market’s moving in that week, as opposed to trying to hope that over the next few weeks or the next few months it continues to move in that direction. I think there’s far less times when you’ll open your account and you’ve seen that the trade has actually swung down into a losing position, because you’re not holding the trades as long, you don’t need to. You really get to capitalize on the moves. Now, I mean, that’s being said too: Do weekly options work when a stock underlying is moving quite a bit? So, you’re going to have, obviously more premium something as the implied volatility is higher, so things are moving around. Would there be an argument for buying calls and puts in monthlies, then, giving it a bit more time, versus the weeklies?” TJ: “Yeah, I think there is, I think yeah absolutely. So for long puts and calls, yeah, I think you do need to give the stock time to move so I absolutely will buy it, typically buying it three to four trading weeks out, but I’m not going to be looking solely, saying, ‘okay well I can only buy an expiration of the third week of the month, the traditional monthly.’ No, I’ll be buying it, you know, maybe 3 or 4 weeks out, but the expiration will still be in a weekly option a lot of the time. I’m not focused solely on that third week of the month expiration. I’m just going to go out 3 or 4 weeks no matter where that falls. But yeah, I think definitely you do need to give trades a little bit of room when you’re trying to buy a call or a put.” Sarah: “Yeah, I mean you do need some time, but you can still pick your weeks. And, I think the more choice you have, the better. And don’t get overwhelmed by choice, I think a lot of traders, because you do have, in options there are so many different things you can choose, make that a way to really focus on your own strategy, to make it really your own, and test the different ideas so that you’re really maximizing what you’re getting out of the market. There’s no sense in being in one stock when you can make more money in another. I would say that with weekly options, whether you want to trade it within that week or you want to go out a couple of weeks and still use the weekly option as your choice for expiry, there’s way more opportunities to tailor trades based on how you like to personalize things, how you like carry a risk, what rewards you like to work with. Regardless of whether the implied volatility is up or down, regardless of whether the market is moving or not, all of those advantages are still very relevant in weekly options. So, why not get into those and cash out of your trades more often? To me, it just makes way more sense. There’s far less risk than sitting in something and letting it go day after day, after day in the wrong direction when the market’s moving all over the place. So, I think this was a good talk and honestly, I actually believe that moving forward, we’re really not going to see new trading instruments come on, with only monthlies – I just think that weeklies is just the future. Or, it is the way that people trade now and it’s important to be able to adapt to those strategies in a modern market that we’re seeing today, because of all the advantages that we’ve outlined. So I did want to make sure that I’m mentioning in this podcast that reviews are really important and I would really appreciate if you guys enjoy the podcast, then post a review up on iTunes or any place that you like to post reviews about not only our podcast, but of course our trading room for many of you who are also members. Feedback is really important and an honest review is very helpful for everybody so I would appreciate that, if you guys could do that. Do you have any last minute words?” TJ: “No, I think we’ve covered it! I think weeklies… the one thing that I’ll leave with is that I don’t think we should be thinking of them as weeklies and monthlies – they’re just options. Pick the expiration date that you want to trade!” Sarah: “Good point. Alright everybody, have a great week in the market. We look forward to talking with you again. Take care!  

Sarah: Hi everybody, this is Sarah Potter here for the SCT podcast, we are at episode 31 and I have TJ here. TJ: Good morning Sarah: And today we are going to talk about Theta, all about time and the option and how that influences it, how do we use that to our advantage and what are some things we can look for when we are trading. So, to start us off here TJ, do you want to explain to everybody just couple of sentences what is Theta. TJ: Theta is the time value in the price of an option, so when you look at the price of an option there are two components, the intrinsic value based on the price of the stock and time value which is based on the time to expiration, so the longer an option has to expiry, the greater the percentage of time value in the price of the option, obviously the shorter the expiry, the less time value there is. So as you are holding an option, if the price of the stock doesn’t change, the price of the option will go down every day till expiry and theta is the reason the price is going down because that time value that chunk of money in the option that is based on the amount of time to expiry is decreasing. So if you have an option and price doesn’t move, that option price will go down. Sarah: Right, yeah, remember when you are trading options, we have to deal with time as an options trader or somebody who, let’s say is buying a stock, doesn’t really have to pay as much attention to it. So certainly time is going to influence the value of that option. So there is also different ways that you can deal with it and to take advantage of it depending on what strategy you are trading. When you look at Theta, obviously you can put that on your options chain, you want to use it, at least I want to use it not necessarily to pick the strategy that I am going to use because I am generally going to make that decision based on the direction of where I think the underlying is going, but it can be very helpful with how long you want to hold an option for, so do you have any specific rules about Theta in terms of how it influences the expiries that you are trading? TJ: Yes, absolutely. I think that we want to make a distinction about it, I really found this interesting when I first started trading options is that when you look at a textbook or when you look at an options payoff diagram, it shows that Theta expires in a nice consistent way all the way to expiry, but what I found is that the through implied volatility, the price of the options still remains high into expiration a lot of times and that will affect the premium, the time value that’s elapsed, so it’s not necessarily a linear line or a straight line of expiration, I find that, let’s talk about weekly options, that generally in time value comes out fastest usually in the last three or four days of the options life and the same thing with, if you look at monthly option, that time value is going to decrease most rapidly in really the last week or last week and a half of that option’s life. So I really like to trade weeklies, weekly options in the same week that they expire. If I am going out maybe two or three weeks, I usually like to keep it within a month, I find that if you keep it within the last month of expiry, usually the last three weeks, three or four weeks, you get the biggest bank for your buck in terms of time value expiration. If you trade an option that expires in six months, you are really not going to see a lot of time value come out of that option for the first really long time. I think that’s important to know because a lot of people try and sell options or credits spreads that are 4,5,6 months old hoping that they are going to hold this for the first three weeks and they are going to see all this time value come out, but it really doesn’t work like that. Sarah: Yeah, I know, tell me about it, I feel like that’s pretty common that people, and sure that can work sometimes but I think the influence there if you sold a spread or you done where you have collected credit and you are just sitting on because the expiry is way far out month or two out, you have either traded something and you got the direction right but it really isn’t the difference in the option value that is changed in those periods of time when you are so far away from expiry. So I actually think that sometimes you really just become a pile on out there in the market, you really are just saying, hey guys, hey everybody, hey market makers, I am just going to stay at this stagger right here and take whatever premium and I really hope that, I hope you guys don’t know this because I am here because you just become a sitting tuck. With credit spreads once you place the trade there is isn’t any more value to that trade, so you are not making any more for holding it any longer, so sometimes they can look to really great, the whole idea of I have just taken more credit and go further out in terms of expiry but then you are just sitting there, so your money essentially isn’t working for you, you have just kind of tied it up and it’s sitting there, hoping that price doesn’t come to you. I think also, when you think about Theta decay in terms of time, its different for weekly options but then also even in terms of buying, how far out is too far out, I guess, what do you think? TJ: It really depends, that’s a difficult question to answer, how far out is too far out, I think it really depends on your philosophy, I think it’s same as the saying, how far in the money is too far in the money, I think there is a sweet spot there as well, so for me personally I think three to four weeks what I am buying an option. I know people will buy 3,4,6 months out, I mean they offer leaps, I mean people will buy options two years out, three years out in a longer holding strategy and I have never really come to a good conclusion as to whether that is profitable on long run, what works for me is keeping it short, keeping it tight, staying within the bounds of what the market is doing right now, because as we know, in three or six months from now it could be a whole different market. Sarah: Yeah, I think that’s a really good point. So when we are looking at multiple time frames which we both do when we are trading, it’s easier to get a kind of feel for what cycle of the market is in now, so if you think about the market moving within a year, there is going to be time where it’s going to trending really nicely, there will be other times where things are transitioning and there will be other times when the market is just not moving at all and throughout, let’s say one calendar year, you are going to have different periods of time in the market moving that way, so the further out you go in terms of the expiry or not having to deal with Theta case, let’s say you buy a call or a put, you have to keep in mind that the history that you are looking at to decide for how the market is moving now, we can gather that information, we can use the weekly charts but once you start getting out in two months out, it becomes a lot more difficult to get a feel for what cycle that market is in at that time and so, actually, I think really what you are doing is using less information with higher risk, the further out you are going because you don’t have anything, you don’t have as reliable tools to get a sense of how the market is moving. TJ: Yeah, exactly. We spoke about that in the previous podcast as well, the illusion of credits of few months out and you get a lot more credit, but really if you look at the probability of success, it’s no more than, it could even be less than trading the current week or the next week, so it was a lot of illusion out there and you really need to understand the data or the options chain and look into, what the numbers are really, what the data is really saying, I think deltas are really quick and easy way to do that or a lot of platforms have probability of success programed in and I think those are couple of measures that people can look at to give themselves a good benchmark of yes, I am getting all those credits or yeah, the trade looks really good, I can make $20 on this option but the chances of probability of it actually working might be very low. Sarah: And so that’s even more true, especially the closure we guess, so we both like to trade weekly options granted but let’s talk about options in terms of day trading and how Theta then becomes very important because that’s really going to influence the success of your trade and a lot of times why you might buy something and think well, this is really cheap, I am just going to buy something in the morning, I am going to try to get out of it by the end of the day and sometimes the direction might be correct but you don’t really end up with a lot of money and that really has to do with how much data is influencing the value of that option because at that time, it’s going to be much more influential. So in that respect, if you think about just Theta in terms of day trading, do you think the data hurts it too much, is there still possibilities of day trading options? TJ: Absolutely, I think you need to look at Theta when you day trading option, you will be trading the Theta trade, so you need to be selling on a day trade, you need to be taking advantage of that rapid time decay, there is a lot of the time on Fridays the higher price stocks, virtually the entire premium that you are getting at a certain strike is time value, it’s an order the money protocol that you can sell and it’s all time value which means that, within that day the price doesn’t really move all that much, you got to collect the entire credit. I think we also have to look too is we have to look at a lot of cheaper stocks too and we have to be careful at our trading less expensive stocks and that, if you are looking at say, you may have to actually buy a put or buy a call, if you are looking at something right at the money or just slightly out of the money, that entire premium can be time decay on a lot of inexpensive options. And that can disappear very quickly with a slight change in price that’s not favorable, so we have to remember that too that if your option has a lot of time premium in it, the price moves slightly against your trade, that time value will come out very quickly. Sarah: Yeah and so in that respect as well, theta can actually be very helpful than when you are managing trades because if you have done something like sole deed and let’s say it’s pretty close to your strike, theta can be more influential because you want to see how much time is actually embedded in the option, we are looking for that to decrease quickly, so that can be helpful tool if you are day trading, use your theta to help remembering that premium decay will go away like premium is going to happen and disappear a lot faster obviously as we get closer and closer to expiry, so that can also be very helpful with management. Are there specific numbers and levels for theta, like I don’t think I have a number that I am looking specifically for those strikes, what about you? TJ: No, not at all, I am not looking at specific number, it’s not like delta where for example, I want to buy a put or call, you are doing to 60s or 70s, I am really not looking at theta in terms of percentage, I am just looking at it in terms of what is the price of the stock, what’s the strike price of the option and how much of the option’s price is time value, so I am looking at it kind of in a general sense and not for any specific levels. Sarah: yeah, me too, I think it’s a good guide and remember it’s just like a slide, sliding wheel, almost like it’s going to go back and forth, then we are just looking to see how influential is it at that time, is it moving, is it changing all the time or is it pretty steady and consistent, so those numbers can be helpful when you are trying to figure out whether you are in enter trades, stay and trades or look to exit trades as well. But it is a really important thing, I think it’s kind of an underdog element to trading options it’s not always discussed but it is at the root of all of your trades because the value of what you are paying or looking for to sell is ultimately what we are doing with trading, so theta is a very important element in trading options. TJ: That’s true, absolutely. Another thing too, that I think we can leave on this note and may be this is a great feature of podcast is option pricing models and I think we have to keep in mind too that option’s theoretical price based on model such as like black shelves or binomial pricing or any of the calculations can be different than what we are actually paying for in the market, what it’s trading for and I think a lot of times we have to understand that the price that the option is trading for in the market is based on supply demand, it’s based on market makers and traders who are going to take the other side of the trade, so sometimes the price can be different than what we think it should be. Sarah: That is a very good point, remember, to everybody. Whatever is text book and theoretical isn’t necessarily what’s actually going on in the market. And when you are actually trading, your expertise is very valuable because actually having your money there, actually getting filled, actually exiting, actually profiting , those are the things that are really important when you trade, it doesn’t matter what it says in the textbook, it matters what you can do in the market every single day. That is an excellent theme and let’s talks about that next time. Have a great week of trading everybody and take care.  

Sarah: Hi, everybody this is Sarah Potter from the SCT podcast. We are at episode #28 and I have TJ here with me.   TJ: Hi, everyone.   Sarah: So in today’s podcast, we are going to talk specifically about adjusting, and rolling trades. Doing something with trades, if they haven’t really worked out the way you wanted them to. We’re going to talk about how and why you want to that. So first off TJ, I hope you can explain a little bit about what is the difference between using the term adjusting or rolling when it comes to trading?   TJ: Well, I think they’re pretty generic terms and different traders will use them differently. Usually for me, rolling is taking the same trade and moving it out to a different expiry date or a different strike price. Whereas, adjusting is changing the trade a little bit. So adding a leg, adding some stock to the trade, for example, to turn a short call into a covered call. Something like that where you’re changing what you’re doing, changing the intent of the trade.   Sarah: Yeah, you’re so right. I find that in trading, it’s kind of hilarious how everybody takes a different spin and take on different terms, I do find that a little interesting. I agree, so when you’re doing an adjusting and rolling, they are a different way to look at a trade but ultimately, what you’re doing is looking at an existing position that you have open, and trying to make a decision about whether or not you need to add some more risk to it to have a more favorable outcome than you have now. So TJ do you roll trades and when do you decide to do that?   TJ: Typically, I won’t generally roll a trade because most of the trades I’m doing are in weekly options and I’m only in a trade for maybe three days, four days. So we can adjust the trade or roll the trade but there’s not a lot of time to do it. So generally those weekly trades, we’ll just exit for the loss and regroup either back into an option in a few weeks once the chart pattern gets back to where we like it, for a new entry or we just get out for a loss and move on. And I think what we have to remember too and a really good point for any trader, is that no matter what you call it, adjusting or rolling. It’s placing a new trade, it’s adding risk to the trade, you’re adding an additional, potential of loss in hopes of making back what you lost on the first leg of the trade. But it is a new trade and it is adding risk so you really have to ask yourself, is that something you want to do? Is it better to take a small loss and walk away or is it better to potentially take a medium or large size loss with the hopes of winning back that initial loss. So for the short trades, no I don’t. I usually get out and move on. For some of the longer term long puts and calls, covered call position, protect puts, yes. And even if it expires three or four weeks out or longer is much easier and a much better candidate for adjusting or rolling and yes, on a case by case basis I will. I don’t think there’s any point of extending a trade for months or weeks or even a year or so just to break even at the end. I think it’s stressful mentally and stressful on your wallet a lot of times. What do you think about adjusting versus rolling do you do it? What’s your opinion Sarah?   Sarah: Well my opinion at the very beginning is I don’t ever really want to be doing that. That is never my goal in the trades and I think that is something that’s important to point out. There are strategies out there in the market that basically somebody is setting up the trade and their plan is to adjust as they move through that strategy and that’s really not something that we do in our room and I’d say that we’re both the same way that way. When we’re originally setting up our trade and deciding where we think something is going to go, choosing a strategy, the strike and the timeline accordingly, we’re looking to hit the home run. We’re looking to actually hit those targets from the beginning without having to adjust versus there are some strategies out there where when you place the trade your plan within the timeframe that you’re still in the trade is adjust the legs on either side. So we should mention that that is one strategy altogether. I don’t do that. For me if I’m going to adjust or roll a trade, I will do it occasionally. The only real times that I’m really even going to consider it is when I can still look at the underlying. I’m still going to look at a stock for example, and say yes, I still think things are moving in the same direction than I originally thought when I placed the trade. But along the way something has happened but now when I’m towards the end of the trade my assumption of where I think something is moving is still the same from the beginning I’ve just let’s say, ran out of time. So sometimes, if I still think the stock is going to be moving higher but my option is about to expire or time is influencing too much the price of the strike that I’ve purchased, I might have to roll that trade out or adjust it a little bit so that I have more time. So I will do that. I also will keep in mind how the market’s moving. So in fact if I look at my trades over the last couple of weeks, I actually have adjusted and rolled a couple. I think there’s specific links to why I’ve done each of those trades. I mean in the trading room we’ve talked specifically, because I always do that whenever we’re in trades, I always go through each one of the trades in the room and we talk about why we’re managing some, why am I exiting some, why am I taking profits here, and all that kind of things. But if I look at some of those the reason is one through earnings, so sometimes if I want to take advantage of an earnings announcement and let’s say I’m in a long position and the stock hasn’t popped out yet but I think that earnings is going to make that go a bit higher so I roll because I want to be involved a little bit longer. I will shift the trade. Again, making sure though that my assumption continues to be that I think things are going higher and so I’ll take the time and buy a little bit further out in terms of expiry to now take advantage of something like earnings. I will throw those on sometimes. And then also, if you’re in a trade, and let’s say it’s a couple of weeks out and we’re sitting in that trade and we’re waiting, and waiting and it hasn’t popped up yet but think it’s going to and all of a sudden one day there’s something that has happened that moved the market that wasn’t anticipated. So sometimes like some news events or something that has really changed the tone of the market, then I look at that stock I think okay that day alone really changed the move so let’s say it sold off quite a bit but I think it’s coming back quite strong very quickly. And so as long as the underlying assumption is still true, I still think it’s long, I will roll the trade out again. That’s an example of when I would also roll because I think again, it’s just time that I need on the trade as opposed to strategy. Now, if we talk specifically about adjusting TJ would you say you do more adjusting or rolling more often?   TJ: I do more rolling. And I agree with the premises. Usually, when I’m rolling it’s for extra time. So the stock is behaving the way that we wanted it to however the option, the expiry date that we chose is coming up really quickly. Trend is still there we just need to buy ourselves, literally, buy ourselves a little bit more time in the trade and just extend that allowing us to be in a winning trade. We’re not going to extend for time as if the chart pattern looks completely different than when we entered the trade and then a lot of people use rolling just to extend, extend, extend and kind of deny the fact that the trade’s not working but I think a lot of times it’s just like a bandaid you just have to rip it off the faster, the better and move on. Time that's a really good candidate that we've used with success. A number of times in the ETF, USO, it's a really inexpensive ETF trading anywhere right now kind of between a $9.50 and $11. You can pick up options pretty inexpensively on USO and you can look to, if USO makes a move, percentage wise you're looking to probably make 50-100% on that option's trade. So you're looking to turn that 15 cent option into a 30-40 cent option. And so in that case because you're looking for that to double or a little bit more price of the option you can afford to take that a couple of times. You can afford to adjust that trade a couple of times and still know that okay USO is in a really good trend. We just need some more time. So for example in a USO's bottoming out and I'm buying the call it slows down for a little bit and you know they say the $9 or $10 call that we have in the markets move sideway since we got into it. You know if I paid 20 cents for it, and I'm looking to get 40 or 50 cents out of it when I sell it then I can take that 20 cent trade I can take it twice and break even or more or do better on that trade. So I think there's some stocks in ETF's that really lend themselves to it and for me it is inexpensive ETF's or stocks that can move a large percentage in that USO is that one that we've adjusted with quite a bit of success.   Sarah: Yeah, you have done well with that one. So how many times would you roll something. Like at what point is it just too many times?   TJ:  I think for USO I'd probably take two tries at it. Especially now, how the charts are pretty well kind of locked between that 9.50 and 11 dollar range is if you're buying a call at the bottom at 9.50 or you're buying a put up at 11, you're usually still in the same trend. So I'd be buying my call and usually what happens is it's not moving fast as we thought was going to so I'll extend it. If it reverses for example, if I've bought the call at 9.50 and then all of a sudden USO's trading at 8.75 or 8.50 I might take one more shot at it because it's just broken through support and we might get a bounce but that's about it. If the trend is changed, I'm not going to keep reversing my position on it just to kind of hold on the trade.   Sarah: Okay, I agree I usually find two rolls is really the most for me where, okay I just have got it wrong at that point. So after two times it's just I need to move on from the trade or take a sign with the stock maybe. But I have got something wrong here and it's like you said, time to pull off the bandaid. So that kind of brings me to a good question that I think people want to hear about is, when you start rolling or adjusting, whatever you're doing, are you at that point changing the goal of your trade to just break even or are you rolling and adjusting and you're still looking for a reward or profit on the trade?   TJ: Yeah, I think that's a really good point too and that I hadn't really thought of that too. And it's a lot of how I trade and what I talk about is well is that when you are the premise for me when I adjust or roll is to make back the loss. So I'm looking at if I've lost, say 30 cents on a trade, I'm looking to exit the next trade the adjusting trade at around that 30 or just a little bit more. I'm really just trying to break even, cover commissions,  get out of the trade for 0. I'm not really looking on the second trade to go in and double up or triple up on that second trade and I think that's where a lot of people end up losing in adjustments because they see the profit, they've broken even and then they're trying to make money on that second trade and I think a lot of times, they're trying to make too much and it ends up retracing and they end up losing twice. So I don't know, why Sarah do you think that? why in trader's minds and I've asked myself this and I've asked room too, it never really got a great answer is, why don't people think adjusting or rolling is taking a new trade? Why do they talk about it like it's just extending in it has zero risk proposition with only gains to be had?   Sarah: You're so right actually. Sometimes I think probably because it's another term and I think we hear from brokers a lot like, let's just put out on the table that when you're all trading, were trading through brokers and what do brokers want from all of us? They want us to trade. And so sure they want to trade too, they want to make money, we want to protect our profits, we want to limit our risk, and of course everybody's looking for that one cash cow of a trade out there but we also do hear from brokers a lot that say, that explain rolling and adjusting as not necessarily a new trade but giving that first trade a second chance. And I think it actually relates to who we are as people and I just want to throw trading here on one side. Also look at everybody as a trader and the psychology of it all. I think every time any of us place a trade, we want to give things the benefit of the doubt. That it is going to work out. We all want something to be okay. We never want to set up something for failure. And I think sometimes when you're trading, it's important to be very conscious of that because when we start making those assumptions and thinking oh gosh I really hope it works out, this has to work, this has to work. We've really moved away from rational decision making that you need to make in the trade. And I think people just jump to this idea of it's okay, I can adjust. I can roll and it will just hide that and I don't have to deal with that right now. I can just move it out a little bit further. And I have to say that might be good in the short term but in the long term that can really bite you. I don't know if I'm allowed to say bite in the ass but it can really hurt you. And sometimes like you said, taking the band aid off quick or slow either way it's going to hurt. So what's the best way to actually get back on track? And sometimes because we hear from brokers about how it's okay we can hide this. It's okay, we can move on. I think people stop remembering that it actually isn't a new trade. But I like what you said, I think that's actually a good way to counterbalance that. So a solution into thinking that way is when you do start adjusting or rolling, rather than now looking for profit, is you're just really looking to break even to make back some of the loss and to cover commission. And that's another thing too here. We haven't really talked about that and ‘commissions’ can be another good podcast down the road. It's just talking about how conditions influence trading and that's another topic that we really don't hear about very often but it affects us every month and it affects our bottom line because we are all retail traders and we're paying commission. Let's mark that down as an actual theme to do cause I think that would be a good discussion. And I think that leads me into another idea that I wanted to make sure we're talking about, is that when we're adjusting and rolling, there is no undo button and I think that a lot of traders wish that once they start getting into adjusting and rolling that they're, secretly in their minds, they're thinking there's an undo button. And I would totally admit, I have trade right now that I wish there's an undo button on. So here's an example of a trade that's not working now, with you guys we're completely open and honest about trades, so here is one with DG I am in. I bought a call. It was long in position and then DG sold off. So I decided while I'm going to make an adjustment to that trade, I'm going to sell 72's and hold on to my 74 long position. So essentially creating a credit spread. And then lo and behold, what happened today DG shot up through 72. Like oh my god, man, where's my undo button?  I didn't have it. So speaking of adjusting and rolling,  I'm actually working on an example right now in DG and making the decision about what do I want to do moving forward. So let's take the same tips that we just discussed in the podcast and add that into this specific example. So right now when I'm in DG and the price of it is higher than the strike of which I sold. I have to make a decision about where do I think that underline is going. Where do I think that stock DG is going to move as it expires tomorrow. And so right now I'm actually holding the 72. I've been paying a lot of attention to how it's been pricing especially into this afternoon and that's really important when you're trying to decide whether to adjust or roll make sure you take good look at that options chain. Really look at and get a good feel for where is volume coming in, where are people lining up on that options chain, where do they put the stakes in the ground about where they think things are going. Use that information to help you with your trade to decide whether you want to adjust or roll. That's very helpful. And make the decision about okay I don't have an undo button here. I already adjusted the trades so I was long to 74 I added short the 72, what do I need to do now moving into tomorrow? For this specific example, in my mind tomorrow I'm going to evaluate; do I want to look to take an assignment on anything? If something has value, do I want to look for that assignment piece so I might be short in the stock if I keep this short position on or do I just want to get rid of the whole thing and say yeah, this is just a small loss and we'll just get out of it.. Do I want to get rid of just the 72's that I sold? So we're going to go through all that scenarios in the live trade room because I think that's really important. But for all of you in the podcast as well I hope you go through a same process of looking at a position you're in. Something I adjusted. I don't have an undo button. I was wrong about the direction that I thought something was moving and so as I move into tomorrow that is the end for me. I tried doing an adjustment on it. I am not going to go out any further. I confess up to it and say yup I got out of four or five winning positions this week and this one isn't working and that's okay. And I'm not going to continue the risk on this by rolling this out any further. I was wrong, I tried it once, I didn't get it so I have to make a good rational decision to say tomorrow's the end of this trade. Even though I have the ability and the broker's little light will flash and say hey you can do this. I'm not going to do that I have already made that choice one time and it's time to move on to look for other trades that can make me money. Cause I can make more money in the market being focused on the right trade rather than spending too much time on trades that are wrong. I don't know when you look at trades do you ever have a point where you're like I just have to stop here.   TJ: All the time and it's usually you try once, you try twice and then it's time to move on to something with better opportunity and not dwell or focus on the one trade or two trades of eight or two trades of ten that didn't work. Right? We're always focused on that one or two that didn't work when there's seven or eight or nine that have worked really well. But we're still well, like you said, as humans focused on that and I think, I don't know, I'd like to leave this with kind of a thought too and goes along to the last point in it. I think thought it was a really great point was if I'm taking a second. So for example, I have Apple. I take one trade, it doesn't work, I adjust it or roll it, and I'm looking at that second trade. Why does that second trade have to be an Apple? Maybe there's a better opportunity in a different stock in Google. So why do I have to stay in Apple just because I started trading in Apple? Maybe there's a better opportunity and I can make my loss back in a different stock and I think that's what we have to remember that like you said just because there is that rolling button on your brokerage that makes you that one click roll, doesn't mean you need to use it. And you need to really evaluate at the end of the day, is it better to stay in the original stock, and I think there's opportunity there. Or is there more opportunity somewhere else where I can make more money and I think that's kept me on the right side of things for many years.   Sarah: Those are wise words my friend and I'm sure all of you guys listening to this podcast can absolutely relate to this feeling because this is something that we all deal with. And I hope this has been really helpful for you to hear a little bit about how we evaluate trades and what we basically do with them when they're not working. I think it's sometimes really easy cause we are shorter term traders and we have so many profitable trades that sometimes a lot of the learning can come from trades that don’t work and so happy to talk through all of that. So great podcast today I think this was really helpful for everybody. We would love to hear from you though. So one is, send us an email podcast@shecantrade.com if there's a specific theme that you'd like us to talk about moving forward we're happy to take all of those pieces of feedback and then also please post a review. The reviews are what really helped build this podcast up and helped other people benefit from the learning that's here. So please review the podcast. Look forward to seeing you guys all guys next week and happy trading everybody.    

Sarah: Hi everybody. So excited to be back. This is the re-launch of the SCT podcast. So as I said, I am really excited to have all of you involved and I just wanted to let everyone know because I did have a lot of questions about why we stopped the podcast and what was going on and just to let everybody know, I have just had a second child and so, between everything that we were doing, this was something that did need to be put on hold, but we are all back again and we are actually going to take a little bit of a different approach to the podcast, which I am pretty excited about, we are going to talk about that today. So first things first, I just want to introduce TJ here, we have TJ now being part of our podcast. So do you want to say hi. TJ: Hi guys. Sarah: And I think this will be a really nice perspective moving forward because it will be the two of us so we will be able to discuss different perspectives a little bit more about trading. Certainly trading is all about everybody’s different perspectives and remember for any trade to actually happen, there has to be a winner and a loser, there has to be an exchange of two people’s ideas. So it will be really helpful for us to have more conversations moving forward or even debates about strategies, ways to approach the markets and really how to benefit and get as much out of the market as you can. So really excited about the podcast moving forward and also wanted to talk to you a little bit about how things will change. The biggest thing moving forward is that we are going to focus on one theme per show. We got a lot of feedback, where everybody really liked all the content we had in the previous podcast series but sometimes we talked a lot about the things each show. So, what we are going to do now is pick a theme and from that theme we are really going to focus on trading tips, trading lessons, how to improve, what you can pull out of the market, finding better trades, that kind of things. So, this is my request from you, We need to hear from you guys about what are different themes you would like to hear us discuss in this podcast. So you can email podcast@shecantrade.com. What we have done moving forward for the next few weeks is that we have certainly collected a lot of feedback from all the emails we have gotten for a while and we are going to start working away on those and we want to continue to hear from you. This podcast is really all about you guys. We do this so that we can share information and have great real conversations about the markets and the best shows really come from hearing the feedback from all of the listeners and the viewers. So speaking of which, we also need to have your reviews, your reviews really make the podcast and help raise awareness about what we are doing here. So please make sure that you are giving us an honest review about this podcast and as I said, really excited about the re-launch. So TJ, do you want to tell us a little bit about, do you want to talk to them about when we will be releasing it, what dates to expect the podcast. TJ: Yeah, absolutely Sarah. So the podcast, we are going to get it out every week, it will be released on Thursdays and it will be a new topic, great discussions, hopefully you guys subscribe on Itunes or on your favorite podcast network and yeah, check in every Thursday for brand new content. So, with the markets the way they are, I think there is lots and lots of content we can talk about, had a really great time trading a last couple of months. Definitely ever since November, it’s been an awesome market, so Sarah do you have any favorite trades that you have done in the last couple of months? Sarah: Yeah, I mean, it’s true. We haven’t done the podcast but we have still been trading and the live room has continued as well as texting service. In fact, I started trading four days after having my second child, so really got right back to the market right away because there were so many trades out there and in terms of actual stock picking, I continued to really like the high bid of stocks, so pretty well, if you could recognize those stocks, those names. I like those. And then also, I continue to like stocks that have a lot of history and I find that sometimes some of the stocks these days especially new stocks or IPOs come right in the market quickly and can be a little challenging to figure out where they are moving. I definitely like to look at the history of stocks to figure out how I want to trade them. So if I look back on all of them and still probably and lots of the big names that you recognize, Apple, Facebook, Netflix, those are all really great. How about you, what are some of the stocks that you have been doing about the last little bit. TJ: Yeah, I would agree with you although, I think I have fixed them really, we have been doing some really different things, like with a lot of the stocks that we have been looking at, some names, some smaller names on BIDU, IBM as well, selling puts, straddles, credit spreads etc so I am really trying to mix it up. The market is a lot different now than it was six months ago. And I think the best thing is that I know from personal experience is you can’t get too caught up in anyone’s strategy. You really need to be flexible and adapt to what the market is bringing. Sarah, would you think this can happen in the next couple of months, next couple of weeks. Sarah: Well, I think it’s really hard to project and moving forward in terms of the market, as you guys all know I always talk about how it’s not about me guessing or something is going couple of months down the road, I want to pay attention is what’s happening that day so that I am making appropriate trading decisions. So, yeah it’s really just about what things are setting up within that week and then trying to place trades that time. TJ: So would you think you kind of leaving somebody with a great trading tip this podcast, what would your number one tip be going into next week? Sarah: I will probably leave everybody with a tip that I think is pretty crucial and is really not about just useful for next week, I think it’s kind of relevant for any week. And what I think I would probably leave everybody with, is the idea of ‘what a trader is?’ So if you think about the work “Trader” it’s really an umbrella term and there is all sorts of different types of traders, all sorts of different market and then I think whenever I was searching for trades all the time, we got to see how the market is moving, sometimes people forget that a trader is still somebody who doesn’t trade as well. So, it’s important to have really good trades, smart trades to understand why you are entering into trade, Why you are staying in a trade?, Why you are getting out of the trade, and you don’t want to just place trades to place trades. So it’s really important that everybody is always gathering evidence, the market is always going to shift and always going to change. It will always provide opportunities to trade and it is up to us as traders to evaluate which one is the best one and which one we should wait and leave aside, I think that’s my tip moving forward. How about yourself? Do you have a tip for everybody? TJ: Yeah, I think the tip is to follow the market and what the market speaks to you. It goes along what you said too. I kind of agree more is that, definitely catches the positions. Sometimes it’s better not to trade, but I think just letting the market speak to you and following what the market is doing and not trying to guess where in unpredictable times and we need to make sure that we are trading what we see today because in two days, it can be completely different. Also making sure that we live out at our risk and that we are taking the right risks for the right reasons. Sarah: Right, good tips. So that is really exciting or should I say this whole podcast release is really exciting and I am looking forward to our weekly podcast and as I said moving forward, our new style and approach is going to be a little different, so stay tuned, every Thursday this podcast will be released and we will be basing it around one theme in the market to make sure that you are all getting a lots of information each show. So please subscribe, review and we will see you on Thursday. Take care everybody.

In this episode, Sarah Mei, founder of RailsBridge, Director of Ruby Central, and Chief Consultant of DevMynd Software, talks about the way we write software: What's right? What's wrong? How can we do better? The conversation examines changing code and reassessing needs. i.e.: "Does it bring me joy? Should I get rid of this thing? Do I understand this code?" She also talks about what these needs mean for others on a team. Sarah Mei: @sarahmei Links: Sarah Mei: How We Make Software: A New Theory of Teams @ Brighton Ruby 2016 The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up: The Japanese Art of Decluttering and Organizing by Marie Kondo Transcript: CHARLES: Welcome to the Frontside Podcast. I am Charles Lowell and with me is Robert DeLuca. We have a very special guest this week. One that I'm really excited about because the things she says and the ideas that she has - open eyes and minds all over the place, in all different types of areas that are so pertinent to the way we do our jobs. So, we'll get to it. Our guest today is Sarah Mei. SARAH: Hi. Thanks for having me. CHARLES: Like I said, we are super excited to have you here. Before we get started talking about some of the things that you've been thinking about recently, why don't you just give like a very brief introduction of how you got started with development, where you've been, and how has that brought you to where you're going right now? SARAH: You know, I actually was not one of these people that got started with it real early. I came to programming in college. I was an Engineering major. I wanted to build bridges. I wanted to be a Structural Engineer. I want to build things. I had a weird schedule the first couple of quarters of college, so I ended up taking an elective earlier than most people take it. It was a programming class in Fortran that was required for the structural engineering program. I took my class and I was like, "This is really cool." CHARLES: Wait, Fortran is what set the hook? SARAH: Yeah, and the professor of the class was like, "Well, if you think Fortran is cool. I've got some other stuff that you might like." I mean, the language and whatever doesn't really matter. What I liked about it was the fact that I could build something. I can get that same feeling of building something that you get if you build a bridge but you can do more than like one or two in your career, like you do if you're a structural engineer. I like the constant feeling of building. That's what I liked about it. So I ended up switching my major and graduating with the CS degree and coming out and doing a bunch of different things, mostly like starting in a large company and sort of doing smaller and smaller companies over time. CHARLES: Yeah, there's a lot of people in the industry who are career switchers, where they started out in something else and moved into Computer Science but I actually feel that a lot of people, like myself included, I have the degree in CS too, but that was not what I set out to do at all. It totally derailed, like the course of my life in a good way. But in that way, it's like a career switch within a career switch. ROBERT: I'm a little odd in that aspect. I came out of high school like ready to go in software. It worries me a little bit for the later half of my life. I'm like, "Oh, am I going to do software for the entire time?" CHARLES: Probably not. SARAH: That might be a good thing. You'll never know. ROBERT: Yeah. CHARLES: Yeah, seriously, what lies ahead? ROBERT: Who knows? SARAH: I feel like in a lot of places that are like, for example, in public policy and in other places where we need more people that understand tech so if we can send you out into other parts of the world knowing a whole lot about programming, that can only be good. CHARLES: Yeah. ROBERT: Yeah, this is actually kind of funny. I was telling CHARLES about this the other days, like I'm starting to view programming more as a tool to do the things that I really want to do and less as like the thing that I'm going to be doing forever. I wanted to augment and make things that I have a passion about easier. SARAH: Yeah, absolutely. CHARLES: Yeah, it's like software is eating the world so what you're doing now is just learning how to chew. ROBERT: That's a great way to put it. SARAH: You should tweet that. [Laughter] CHARLES: All right. Please continue. I'll ignore the typing sounds. SARAH: [Laughs] Switching careers is a really interesting thing because you end up with a bunch of experience that you wouldn't have had otherwise. I'm really excited actually about the next five years as we have all these folks that switched into programming from something else who are all becoming mid to senior level because they're bringing just such amazing experience from other parts of the world. CHARLES: Yeah, I know, right? It's like, "Where've you guys been my whole career?" SARAH: Right. CHARLES: It's like you understand these things, just almost like it's second nature of these things that are opaque and completely inaccessible to me. So anyhow... SARAH: That's how I got here. CHARLES: So then, after you kind of switched in college, you went out and did you just start working in programming immediately thereafter? SARAH: Yeah, I worked in a bunch of different product companies. I built products for a while. My first job actually out of college was at Microsoft up in Redmond and then I have worked at smaller and smaller and smaller companies. Then I spent about 10 years doing product stuff and then about 10 years ago, I switched into doing consulting mostly because I realized that I have a fairly short attention span for projects. And that working on a product, there wasn't anything wrong with me exactly but what would happen is when I was working with a product, I would get six months to a year into it and I'm starting to get antsy. I started to get bored and decided that I should just embrace that. And I switch to something where I am going to be on a new project every three to six months. I've been a lot happier since then. ROBERT: That's interesting. I wonder if that comes with seniority in software development and knowing your way around because consulting for me is I've gotten the experience of, "Oh, wow, I'm just finally getting a hang of this person's product or this client's product or app or whatever we're building," and it's, "All right. It's time to rotate off." It's like you just get in there and understanding everything. SARAH: There is that aspect of it for sure but even when I was much less experienced, even with my first couple of jobs, I noticed this tendency in myself to just get bored after six months on the same code base. For a long time, I thought it was because I'm not cut out for software or maybe I'm not very good at it or something. Eventually, I just realized now actually, it's just that I just need to switch projects. I'm just one of those people. That's how my brain works. I get a lot out of switching projects because the one that I switch on to, I see an entirely different way of doing things like code bases are so different. Even if you look at a hundred different Rails apps or a hundred different Ember apps, they're all so different. So switching on to somebody else's app, I learned a ton just out of that switching process. CHARLES: It sounds like the actual kind of studying the meta-level of the software is what really engages you and kind of understanding how the software came to be the way it is and not some other way. One of the factors that gave rise to that and kind of 'that's the problem' that really sunk its teeth in you, as opposed to individual business problem. Is that fair to say? SARAH: It has certainly been interesting to see different business problems and to understand different parts of industries and so on. That's definitely part of it for me but what really gets me interested is the different ways that people organize their code and by how they make the decisions that they make. ROBERT: Yeah, you get to see different problems that they've maybe put themselves into because of the way they structured something, which you wouldn't see if you wrote yourself but somebody else did and get to see, "Oh, I understand this pattern now." That's kind of been my experience out of it. I don't want to speak for you, but yeah, that's kind of how I've seen other client projects like, "Oh, this is really cool. I didn't think of a way to do this," and you get to experience many different things in many different ways. SARAH: You get to see a lot of the tradeoffs. Like a lot of times in a single code base, what would happen is I'd make a decision or we'd make a design decision of some kind. Then I'd see how it turned out. But there's no way for me to see how it would have turned out if I did it the other way. The nice thing about switching projects for me is just being able to see all of those tradeoffs, like the tradeoffs that you make tend to be pretty similar. You can see very similar situations where people do different things and how does it turn out for them. ROBERT: Right, and like one of my favorite things is where you go into a project that is totally against something, like for me it was object-oriented CSS and then you go in and you actually see it in practice, and you're like, "Oh, wow. This is turning a whole new light on it. I like this in this case." SARAH: Microservices are like that for me, where it's generally I am anti the microservice bandwagon. But then I went on one project where I was like, "Wow, they actually figured it out. This works really well. I can see why people like it," because I've seen so many work that was horribly executed. When you go on to the one where it's good and you're like, "Oh, this is why people do that. Okay." ROBERT: Yeah, it's like that light-bulb click, "Oh, yep. There's another side of this." CHARLES: Once you actually see it done right, it helps you avoid every other situation where it was done wrong and you can say, "Oh, this this was the one differentiator that made it all go right." I mean, sometimes it doesn't always boil down to that. But there's these one, two, three things that we could have done. But they were just completely and totally hidden from you because you didn't have that context. I would love to talk to you about microservices because I've certainly never seen it done right. I've heard it talked about and I've seen this beautiful world, picture-painted that looks so fantastic on the whiteboard. But I see -- SARAH: Oh, it's so beautiful, isn't it? It's like an object-oriented design diagram. I'm like, "Look at all the boxes and lines. They all line up." CHARLES: "They're beautiful." SARAH: "I can do this in Visio," and they're all like, the line, they are on the same shape. It was great. CHARLES: "And when I move this one over there, it just tells me that these two are exactly the same distance apart from that other one." Ah, so satisfying. SARAH: Yeah, and then you try and do it, is the problem. ROBERT: Then you build it and you cross your errors and everything. CHARLES: Which actually I think that brings us, recently -- we're talking on Twitter. I think that's actually very recently about kind of the difference between when we talk about software and the meta conversations we have around it. When we do talk about these abstract and perfect worlds of boxes and lines versus the actual code bases, which is the things that you've kind of been observing many, many, many since you've started consulting, and kind of the vibe between those and you know what that means. I think a lot of people aren't even aware like I certainly, before kind of reading that, wasn't really aware that that is a very, very distinct difference, like these are two very different modes for software. One that exists and one that is kind of perfect world. ROBERT: Kind of academia versus the real world, I guess. SARAH: In some ways, yeah. I remember when I was in college, we had a software design class as part of our degree program. We studied how you define objects and you write a little bit of [inaudible], like we did all this stuff. When I got out and I got into the real world and I had a job, I found it very difficult to actually apply that stuff successfully, to be able to draw a diagram and then turn it into code and have it work out the way that the diagram said it was supposed to work out. I initially thought that was because I was just not experienced enough to figure it out. But eventually, what I realized is that it doesn't work because it doesn't work. It really doesn't work to design things ahead of time and then just do them. I think there might be a certain type of person that can do that. I am not that type of person and most people aren't. I think that it takes a very unusual type of brain to be able to just draw a diagram that has already taken into account all of the things you're going to encounter once you start making it. CHARLES: Yeah, I would even go so far as to say there's probably a brain that solved that problem many, many times, that just could skip a bunch of steps. SARAH: Right, and they're not aware they're skipping them necessarily. Unless you have an entire team full of that type of brain, it's probably not a good idea in general, for the software that you're building as a group. I feel like I've been trying to talk about that concept between the difference of how we talked about software in books, in blogs, and in conference talks and then how we build the software we actually build. I feel like I've been trying to articulate that for 20 years, like since I have my [inaudible] and I was like, "This doesn't work. Why can't I make a diagram and then make it into code?" Like two days ago, I feel like I finally found a way to articulate it that captures everything that I've been trying to communicate and it was a really strange feeling. I'm like, "Wow, I finally kind of got it." One of the reasons that I came up with that, I think, is because I haven't really been thinking about it for a couple of months. I've been off and not really thinking about software stuff for a while. Oddly enough, I've been thinking about organizing my house for the last three months. All of my free time outside of my job has been thinking about like, "I've been learning how to cook, so how can I organize my kitchen so that the things I actually use every day, I don't have to dig through a drawer every single time to find them?" There's actually some interesting problems there like, "How do I make sure that all of the stuff that I need is at hand that I use all the time? All stuff that I need occasionally is still around and accessible, and then things that I don't use, I should probably just get rid of." I have this problem that I think probably a lot of people have which is that I have trouble getting rid of stuff once I have it. I live in a small apartment in San Francisco and that's not a good thing to be able to unable to get rid of things because in an apartment this size, I can let it go for a week or two maybe, but like I got to be very vigilant about it because otherwise, it just overwhelms the space. CHARLES: Yeah, there's a bunch of research that the people estimate vastly different the cost of acquisition versus the cost of loss, and they've [inaudible] way too much, like irrationally unbalanced like not wanting to lose something that they already have. SARAH: Even if I bought it for a need that I don't have any more or the need has changed or shifted. I don't buy things I don't need. There are some people that have that problem, that they buy a bunch of stuff that they don't have any particular plans for it. I don't have that problem, thankfully. I've had people in my family that have that problem which I think is why I have avoided that. But the problem I have is that once something is here, I find it very difficult to get rid of it. I look at it and I'm like, "I can think of all these reasons why I shouldn't get rid of it." Oh, that was expensive so the sunk cost fallacy of like, "Oh, I paid a lot of money for that even if it's not useful and I don't like it, I shouldn't get rid of it." Or, there'll be like a dress in my closet that I haven't worn for two years and I'm like, "Ah, maybe I should get rid of it," and I take it out and I'm like, "Oh, my God. But it looks really good on me. I like it. I should wear this. I should really wear this." So I'm going to keep it even though I haven't worn in for two years for some reason, but I should keep it anyway because it looks good. I have all these stories. I tell myself about why I can't get rid of things. A couple of weeks ago, I read a part of a book, to be totally honest with you, called The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up. It's written by this woman from Japan who's a professional organizer. Her name is Marie Kondo and her method is called KonMari. Basically, what it does is when you're trying to figure out whether you should get rid of something, you don't ask yourself, "Should I keep it?" What you ask yourself is, "Does this thing bring me joy? And if it brings me joy, then I keep it. If it doesn't, then I'm going to get rid of it." So that made it really easy, going back to the dress example. I'm like, "Does this dress give me joy?" And I thought about it, I was like, "No, the reason I don't wear it is because I went out to dinner and I had a bad experience at dinner so every time I look at that dress, it reminds me of that experience." And so it looks good and everything but I'm not going to wear it because it doesn't make me happy. So that was just like, "Okay, fine. I'm just going to give it away." And changing that question that I ask away from 'should I keep it' towards 'how does that make me feel' was a huge change for me because it's like, that's really easy to answer, where 'should I keep it' is a much harder question. There's these bunch of sort of ifs and maybes or what-ifs and what happens. I feel like that applying this KonMari question to stuff has changed the way that I calculate what stays and what goes in a very positive way. CHARLES: Yeah, boy, I need to get this book for several family members who will go [inaudible]. SARAH: Well, you know, I've got two kids and so there's a constant flow of stuff coming into the house. Because of the amount of space I have, there has to be a constant stuff going out. So this is something I just need to be very vigilant about and this has made it so that it takes up a lot less of my time and a lot less of my brain space, which is really awesome. It feels like it's moving my house in the right direction. I've been thinking about that sort of in various ways, on and off, for a couple of months and I haven't been thinking about software. I have this fear that like, maybe that means I'm never going to think about software again. I go through these phases where I've got like, "Oh, I'm going to come up with a bunch of new ideas," where I'm coming up with new ideas for some whatever reason. Maybe I'm making new conference talks, I'm doing stuff, and I'm thinking about software a lot. Then I go through these phases where I don't do that, like I sort of retrench and maybe... I don't know. I think about other stuff for a while. So it's been home organization for several months now. I was like this, "I'm never going to think about software again," because it's just that -- [Laughter] CHARLES: Career change. ROBERT: Oh, man. This sounds so much like my life since I moved down to Austin. SARAH: You know, I live in San Francisco and I'm not 25, I'm 40. A lot of it is like maybe I'm just too old for software now. I should just give up and live out the rest of my career doing quiet, maintenance work -- [Laughter] SARAH: Somewhere. I don't know. Then suddenly, this thing happened on Monday, where I was just like, "Oh, code, an organization." And boom! There it was. I realized, I was like, "I basically just had to give my brain some time off," like my conscious brain needs some time off from software and it wasn't that it had disappeared because what I came up with on Monday was really just how home organization applies to code because I realized that the feelings that I get when I'm trying to figure out what I should do with code are very similar to the feelings that I get what I'm trying to figure out whether I should get rid of a thing. I look at this piece of code and I'm like, "Should I change this? Should I get rid of this? Should I refactor it?" You know, why I can't get rid of that? We just spent two weeks refactoring it so I can't change it again. [Laughter] SARAH: We just put in a story for refactoring this and we spent three days and I can't go back to the [inaudible] people and tell them, "I need to change it more." Or, "I really like this code because I wrote it with someone that I really liked." CHARLES: So I don't want to get rid of it. SARAH: I don't want to get rid of it because then I would lose the memory of working with, you know. CHARLES: I actually can say that I have experienced that. SARAH: Yeah, there's a lot of reasons why you don't want to change code. What I was thinking about, like maybe I was asking the wrong question, in the same way that 'should I keep this' is the wrong question when you're talking about stuff. Maybe 'should I change this' is the wrong question when you're talking about code. Maybe it's sort of leading you in the same way with stuff that leads you down this conversation of reasons that don't really have anything to do with the essential quality of why the code is there or why the thing is there. We need something that helps us reassess our needs. So if our needs have changed, maybe you don't need that thing anymore because your needs have changed. Same way with code. If your needs have changed, maybe you don't need that code anymore, at least not in the form that it's at now. I think that question for code that, "Does it bring me joy," because joy is not something that I think is concrete enough when we're talking about code. I think the question for code is do I understand this? Do I understand what it's doing? Not just understand it like a very surface level of like, "Can I figure out what this syntax means?" But understand it more like the grok level of like, I understand this at a very deep level. I understand why it's here. I understand what problem it's solving. I understand why this abstraction is necessary. I understand how it got here. CHARLES: Yeah, how it fits into the bigger picture. SARAH: How it fits into the bigger picture, exactly, like the application. CHARLES: How it fits in with like our conventions that are just purely stylistic. SARAH: How does it fit in with the other stuff that we've been doing? How does it fit in with the product needs and the features we're trying to build and the business goals and all of that stuff, all of these different levels of understanding of why this code is here and what it does? CHARLES: Do other team members' understanding factor into that? Like, "Do I understand the way that other people understand it," so to speak? SARAH: I think that it can. But I think the important thing is whether you personally understand it. CHARLES: Okay, like it's a very personal decision. SARAH: I think it is. Hopefully, what you do is you want different people looking at the same code. You don't want just one person on a piece of code that no one else ever sees, whether it's pairing or code review or whether it's something else. It need to be really clear to someone is coming in and looking at that code what it does, what it means, and why it's there? CHARLES: Right. I guess the reason I asked the question is because a lot of times when I look at a piece of code, I try and really step outside of myself and say, "What will someone else think who has never been on this project before?" Or, "Who is on this project and they see this code, will they understand it?" SARAH: Absolutely. It's definitely a part of it when you're on a team. CHARLES: Yeah, so I'm just trying to figure out how that question factors into this framework. SARAH: I think that it depends a lot on how you distribute tasks. For example, if you work in a shop where you're pair programming most of the time, so there's always two people looking at a piece of code, 'do I understand this' is a reasonable question just for the two of you to consider, both from the fact that you can pool your knowledge but also from the fact that 'are there pieces of this that you understand that I don't understand' and vice versa. On the other hand, if you work in a shop where it's more like, "Here's the piece of code that you work on like you own this section of code." Then I think it's more important for you to be able to step outside and be like, "Okay, do I understand this? Would other people on my team understand this?" That can be a very difficult thing to assess and that's where I think it's very helpful to do things like code reviews, call people in and be like, "Hey, can I run some stuff by you. I'm trying to figure out if this is good or not," because what you want is you want a code base that is comfortable and understandable for you and for your team. Just like the thing that makes the KonMari Method powerful for stuff is that it doesn't tell you what you're going to end up with. It doesn't tell you what level of clutter versus cleanliness is good for you. It doesn't tell you. You either end up like something in one of these simple living magazines or end up something like Quarters, the TV show. There's a bunch of places in the middle, they're all fine. Everyone's going to fall somewhere differently along that line. So I've managed now that I've thought about this a lot to set up my kitchen in a way that is very comfortable for me, like I know where things are, I can find them really easily, things that I use are at hand. But other people come in, they're just like, "I have no idea where everything is," like it's very personal. The organizational system you end up with [inaudible] that you have is a very personal thing and that's why, if you look at something like staged houses, so you're selling your house, you hire someone to put in rugs and furniture and stuff and make it look like somebody lives there so that people can walk in and sort of imagine themselves in this space, they don't put any of that clutter into the stage. They don't put any books on the coffee table except the big picture books. They don't leave the remote controls on the couch. There's no plunger by the toilet. There's no like -- CHARLES: There's no Legos on the floor. ROBERT: Everything that looks good. SARAH: Everything that makes it more personal, they leave out because it looks like somebody else's mess. You go into something like that and you're like, "This is not my mess. This is somebody else's mess. It can't possibly be my house and I'm not going to buy it. ROBERT: Oh, do we do this for software in conference talks and posts? SARAH: Absolutely, we do. That's sounds very similar when you get someone new onto a project, especially if they're more senior and they'll walk in and be like this, I can't live like this. [Laughter] SARAH: This is somebody else's mess and clearly we need to make some changes. But that's the reason why they leave it out of the staged houses is because you want people to be able to imagine their own level of clutter and disorganization that superimposed on the skeleton. But real life is not that. Real life is somewhere between that and hoarders. There's a very interesting parallel there with code, which is like when we look at code, if we look at the object-oriented design textbooks, you look at conference talks, you look at blog post, sample code, it's all very staged house. It's very uncomplicated. It has no clutter in it and that's because you're supposed to be able to look at that. CHARLES: I mean, that clutter can distract the sales process so to speak. SARAH: Exactly, like they have an idea they're trying to get across and the clutter would distract people from the idea. But the problem there is the same with the staged house which it's very difficult to tell what it will be like once you move in. It's very difficult to take some of these ideas that you see demonstrated in these staged environments and take them and apply them to your code base which is probably closer to a hoarded house than to a staged house especially if it's a code base that existed for a while over time, that has been worked on by lots of different people. This is the problem that I've noticed with a lot like there's some really amazing books about software design that have come out in the last couple of years. Of course, Sandi Metz's book is at the top of my list. But the thing that people have trouble with, like they love the book. They love the book. I love the book. But then they find it very difficult to apply those principles when they sit down in front of a code base that has already been worked on for six or seven years, in some cases by maybe 50 different people, who knows, over time. How do you take those principles and start applying them in a way that moves you in the right direction? That's where people are just like, "I can't do this. I can't do this and I'm not going to do this." And it's very similar to a problem where you've got a very dirty house and you don't know where to start in order to move it towards something from the Simple Living magazines or are more like a staged house, you don't know how to start to get it in that direction and so you just kind of give up. The powerful thing about KonMari is that it doesn't give you like, "Here's what you're going to end up with it," but it gives you a way to get started on something that gives you a very easy question to answer. It moves you in the right direction. It moves your house in the right direction without being overly prescriptive about what you'll end up with. CHARLES: Yeah, what that direction even is. SARAH: What you'll end up with is personal for you, anyway. I think the question about 'do I understand this code' is similarly helpful and that it moves you and your code base in the right direction without necessarily giving you a lot of prescription about how you do it or where it goes or even where it's going to end up. It just gives you a question to ask that it tells you whether or not this code needs to change and a question is, "Do I understand it?" If I don't, it should probably change, and if I do, okay, we can just kind of leave it for now. CHARLES: So now, if you're working on a team where you have two different people, maybe different skill levels, maybe just a different temperament or different set of preferences, what do you do when the answer to that question is two different things for two different people? SARAH: Well, sort of like when you move in with someone. This is the hard part about living with somebody else, is that you have to mutually agree upon a method of keeping your house that is agreeable to both of you. Sometimes, when they say that working through a startup is like being married to someone, there's some elements of that because you basically have to figure out like, "Okay, we're going to live in this code together. If we're going to live in this code together, we better both be happy with it. How can we both be happy with it?" It involves usually, some compromise, like I really hate doing the dishes but I don't mind cooking and vice versa. You have to figure out. It really bothers me when there's socks on the floor but I don't care if you leave dirty dishes in the sink or whatever it is. You just have to have these conversations about, "What is going to make the code livable for you?" You basically want to end up with a code base that's understandable where all parts of it are understandable to everyone on the team. Now that's like an ideal. You're not going to get there. But that's kind of what you're going for. If you have two people in the code and you have disagreements about what is the right way to go, sometimes it can help to just be like, "Hey, I don't really understand this," versus, "I don't think this is the right decision and here's why I don't understand this." Sometimes, reframing the question in that way can prompt them to communicate reasons that they have for doing this that they maybe weren't able to articulate before, for example. Just like when you move in with someone, you need to have sort of this commitment to finding a level of housekeeping that you're both happy with. When you're working on the team, you do have to have sort of a mutual commitment to having a code base that everyone can live in. CHARLES: Right. I like that because having like, "I just don't understand this and here's the reason why," that being a completely totally valid answer because sometimes in a code base, where someone's brand new or maybe they're at a more junior level, they don't quite have the tools to understand it or there's a lot of steps that haven't yet taken. It's like understanding is not going to be accessible to them immediately. SARAH: And maybe that means that's the wrong decision for that code base, is that right? CHARLES: Right. SARAH: Because if something is abstracting to the point that a lot of people on the team don't get it, then it's probably not the right abstraction for that code base. That abstraction might be totally appropriate in a code base in which you've got folks that are more experienced who understand why it's there, who have the scars from previous times when they didn't do it, et cetera, et cetera, and they understand why it's there. There is sort of like intellectual understanding of like, "Yes, object-oriented design is a good thing," and then there's, I would call it almost emotional understanding of like, "Oh, yeah, there's this time that we didn't do that and that worked out badly for us." I think that folks that don't have the sort of experiential understanding, sometimes they just need to have that. They need to get that. Sometimes, what that means is you want to let them see what happens to a certain extent. Let them see what happens when you don't do that. CHARLES: Right. This reminds me actually, I've got three kids and the way our house is now versus the way it was seven years ago is wildly different -- the way that we live. You know, with our first child, I'm ashamed to admit it, like our strategy was just to kind of put safety locks all over everything: every cabinet, on the oven, not on the refrigerator, but just kind of 'childproof' the house so that we wouldn't have to change the way that we lived but it made the house really uncomfortable for our children. And kind of having observed that over the course of having the second and the third, there's not anything that we childproof really. We put the dangerous chemicals way up high, where only we can get them. It's a little bit more inconvenient if we need to access the bleach but that level of discomfort is something that we live with. We've always got cups that are set out on a cabinet that sits below the counter so we've got water cups set out so that the children can get water and stuff anytime that we want, and we try, for things that they're going to need, make sure that it's accessible if you happen to be four feet shorter. That's just a condition of who you are. So it means that the actual configuration of our house, even though it's the same house, is just radically different and it is more optimized or it's optimized as a compromise for the fact that there are people living in this house now that haven't learned how to operate everything but they just need to learn that the oven is hot and you don't go there rather than slapping a lock on it. SARAH: Your house is probably more comfortable for you as a group, right? CHARLES: Yes. SARAH: And what that means is that as the 'senior' in the house, it's slightly less comfortable for you in some ways but it's worth it. It's worth being less comfortable for you in order to increase comfort across the board for everyone in the household. CHARLES: Right, because it means that if the child needs water, I don't have to stop what I'm doing to get a cup out of the cabinet and fill it for them. SARAH: And they feel [inaudible] over the stuff in their house. They feel like they live there, like the house is for them. CHARLES: Yes. ROBERT: That builds comfort and confidence. SARAH: Yeah, I think that's a very good analogy. Anytime you have a group of people living together, everyone makes compromises in order for the house to be set up in the way that's optimized for the group. CHARLES: Yeah. "So man, how are we going to apply this to software? What's the next step? What are the concrete steps?" I guess it's just asking those questions, like asking, "Did I understand it?" SARAH: It is asking those questions and it's also, if you are one of the more experienced folks on the team, it's your job to elicit the answers to that from other people that are less experienced. They're not going to tell you. A lot of times, sometimes, they may or may not feel comfortable saying that they don't understand something. So it's your job to really try and figure out like, "Do they get this at a level that is acceptable? Do they understand why this abstraction is here at an intellectual level or at an experiential level, at an emotional level? Do they get it?" Which is not something you can really just ask. In many cases, it's your job to -- CHARLES: To just observe it. SARAH: To observe and to see how it works. If people are having a hard time understanding where things are in the code base, it could be because everything is so cluttered that you can't see anything or it could be that everything is so hidden that you can't see anything. It's sort of the staged house equivalent where everything is too abstracted, or is it the hoarded house equivalent where everything is just obscure and under piles of junk. Either way, no matter which direction you need to move towards the middle, the question is always, "Do I understand this?" ROBERT: I like this a lot. I keep on coming to the analogy of if you put a chef in a different kitchen where everything is just totally rearranged and they don't know where their knives are, where their measuring cups are and stuff, I think that plays perfectly in a software of like you put somebody into a code base that they don't know, "All right, I'll figure it out." It's not their home. It's not what they're comfortable with or used to. Yeah, I think this is making my brain work on how I can apply this. SARAH: Or if they're moving in like when you hire somebody and they 'move into your house', you need to be ready for things to change. And this is one of the reasons why I've been saying for many years in ways that I think maybe didn't quite connect as well as they could have, that really the team is the code and vice versa. Every time you add someone to the team or someone leaves the team, teams are not mutable. You get a completely new team. So, it's not like you can just sort of carry on like you did before. Every time you get someone new onto the team, everything gets reimagined, every breakdown of responsibility, every decision. You look at it in a new way when you have someone new come on to the team. If they're going to stay, like in your chef example, if this person is moving in and this is going to be their kitchen and they're sharing it with other people, then what you're going to end up with is probably something in between what it is when they get there and what they had before. They're going to bring in some ideas, you're going to keep some of your ideas and you're going to end up with something in the middle. The same thing has to happen with your code when you bring someone new onto the team. CHARLES: I really like the way that this just focuses the discussion and I know that you've talked about this a lot before, whether it's a kitchen or a house, this idea of the code not being so much the shrink-wrapped product. It's a structure, yes. It is definitely that but it's a structure that you, as people, inhabit. It protects you from certain things and it provides you certain things that you need to live. When people ask us why is a continuous delivery pipeline so important in automating all these things for deploying your software it's because the idea is this is going to be a living thing that your team will actually be living in. And every member of that team will be living in from the time they start with the company or start with the project until the time that they exit and the time that they leave. It's the actual living process that you want to make comfortable and pleasant. SARAH: And what comfortable and pleasant means will be different depending on who's on that team? It's not something that you can have like a -- CHARLES: It's not. SARAH: Right. This is why all of these things are like, "Here's how you design things." It always seemed to fall flat. I think it would be better titled like, "Here's how I did one thing once." [Laughter] SARAH: Or, "Here's what works for me." I feel like every conference talk that is about design could be, "Here's what works for me. I did this one thing once." CHARLES: You might want to try it. SARAH: You could try it. It might work for you, it might not, right? CHARLES: Right. SARAH: A lot of times where conference talks fall flat and blog post and everything else was why they're more like, "This is how you do it. This is the right way to do it." You're like, "Well, it certainly works for you." [Laughter] ROBERT: The one time I gave a conference talk, the night before I went through every slide and scrutinized it as much as I thought somebody out in the public would do it. And I think that might be where we go through in a 'stage our code'. It's like we're trying to make it perfect for somebody that might come through and scrutinize it or criticize. Because I know when I was going up to put those slides up, I wanted to make sure it was the best foot I could possibly put forward. CHARLES: Right, we don't want to be wrong but I think that's where it actually, thinking of it as 'this is what worked for me' and this is an example from my house that worked. This is a way that I organize my code and my space. That'll not take a lot of pressure off of not having like, "I am right and I'm an authority at saying that this is the right way." That's a lot of pressure. SARAH: I don't even like that. I try and frame a lot of the things that I talk about as like, "Here's the thing that works for me really well. Maybe it'll work for you too. Let me know." CHARLES: Yeah. ROBERT: Yeah, that's how I give it. CHARLES: Up until really about two years ago, I felt like that was the expectation that was put on people is to say the right thing. SARAH: That's true. And I think that there's a lot of teams where that is an unspoken requirement and that's something that we should examine. Because even within a team like 'here's a thing that works for me or here's a thing that worked on my last project' isn't very different from saying something like, "Well, industry best practice --" [Laughter] SARAH: And I think that like you get to a certain level of experience and people expect you to say things like that. In my experience, the best way to do it is 'blah'. I mean, it's not actually a super useful statement because your past experience may or may not be directly applicable to the thing you're looking at right now, no matter how experienced you are. I think that it's much more friendly to have a range of experience levels to say things like, "Well, this worked for me on this project. Let's talk about whether it could work here." CHARLES: Right, yeah. ROBERT: I really like that. CHARLES: I do. It's so hard because your human nature is to try and boil things down into a simple binary. SARAH: People would love to have a list of rules, I'll tell you that. This is a problem. This is one of the reasons why I think it's important for us to come up with these questions that you can ask that will move you in the right direction without giving you rules, that will move you in the direction of finding the rules that work for you. Because rules themselves, people really, really, really want them. But they're always misused. They're always misunderstood and what you really need are the questions that led you to those rules in the first place. That's what people really want, although maybe that's not what they are asked. ROBERT: Ah, the Steve Jobs approach. SARAH: [Inaudible] to start wearing black turtlenecks. I hate turtlenecks. ROBERT: And New Balance shoes and the jeans. [Laughter] SARAH: But yeah. I think it's one of those things where people are very hungry for guidance. But we've been giving them the wrong kind of guidance. We've been trying to give them rules. When what we really need to do is give them questions to help them develop their own judgment. ROBERT: Right. Like when I was coming up, I thought, in everything, there was a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it. I've been slowly, sadly figuring out that it's not all black and white and it's not all just logic. I've always treated programming as like, "Well, they wrote this and it's just logic so I should be able to understand this." It's been a long road to come to this conclusion that kind of like what you're talking about and this has been enlightening for me. Like you are going to solve your problems your own way, your own person, and you'll think about things differently. I really like the analogy of 'this is your house and this is how you work and live in your house'. SARAH: Right, and no one would tell you in order to be a proper human being, you have to set up your house this way. ROBERT: Exactly. SARAH: We feel comfortable telling people, in order to be a professional developer, you need to set up your code this way. I think that those are very similar statements and we should really examine a lot of these 'should' statements that are all over the place when you're talking about software. Think about whether or not they're actually serving us in our mission of doing more things with tech. Like overall, my mission here is for people to be more effective with code so that we can do more interesting things with it. I live in the TV show, Silicon Valley, essentially so I'm surrounded by these companies that are solving these little tiny problems and I'm tired of it. I want us to solve bigger ones. In order to do that, we need to get better at coding. We need to get better at managing code over time and that's what I'm trying to do. CHARLES: Because it's not going to scale, otherwise. We're out of time. We're going to have to have you on the podcast again because I don't think we've got to... what? About 15% of the things that we want to talk about? SARAH: Oh, we are overtime, aren't we? CHARLES: Yeah. But thank you so much, Sarah, for coming on and talking with everybody. You drop real quick your Twitter handle so that if people want to have follow on discussion, they can reach out to you that way, or your other preferred means of contact. SARAH: Yeah, Twitter is probably the best. My Twitter is @sarahmei, and that's mostly where I am. CHARLES: All right. Well, fantastic. As always, feel free to reach out to us too. I'm @cowboyd on Twitter. And what are you, Rob? ROBERT: @robdel12. CHARLES: All right. It's a wrap. Thank you so much, Sarah, and we'll see you in Ether and hopefully we'll have you on the podcast again sometime.