Podcasts about Jesuit Volunteer Corps

This week's episode of “Jesuitical” features a conversation with journalist Helene Stapinski and her son, Dean Jamieson, a fiction writer from Brooklyn who, now in his 20s, finds himself drawn to the Catholic Church his mother left behind two decades ago because of the sex abuse crisis.  Zac, Ashley, Helene and Dean discuss:  - Helene's faith journey, from a “cradle Catholic” and member of the Jesuit Volunteer Corps to a mom disillusioned by the church's sex abuse scandal and culture-war stances - How Dean became “Catholic curious” in college and started attending Mass, drawn to the aesthetics, anti-consumerist values and sense of community he found in the church - How the priest at Dean's local parish in Brooklyn has sought to actively engage young adults and welcome them (and sometimes their parents) back In Signs of the Times, Zac and Ashley discuss Vice President JD Vance's accusations that the U.S. bishops were being critical of the Trump administration's crackdown on immigration because it would hurt their “bottom line”; the threat to Catholic Charities by Trump's directive to freeze federal financial assistance programs; and the Vatican's latest document on “the relationship between Artificial Intelligence and Human Intelligence” that addresses the ethical challenges raised by AI and warns against “creating a substitute for God.” Links for further reading:  “Turning Out, Tuning In? I left the Church, but now my twenty-something kids seem drawn to it” Vice President Vance: Thank you for making headlines about the bishops' care for immigrants JD Vance suggests U.S. bishops only care for immigrants to protect ‘their bottom line' Trump executive order will strip funds from Catholic Charities, White House says New Vatican document on A.I. warns against ‘creating a substitute for God' You can follow us on X and on Instagram @jesuiticalshow.   You can find us on Facebook at facebook.com/groups/jesuitical.  Please consider supporting Jesuitical by becoming a digital subscriber to America Media at americamagazine.org/subscribe Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to “Pathway to Priesthood”—a limited audio series from the Jesuit Conference of Canada and the United States. In these conversations, host Eric Clayton talks with Jesuits who are in the final days of preparing for ordination to the priesthood. They reflect back on their vocation stories and experience of Jesuit formation, and wrestle with some of the biggest questions surrounding priestly ordination. On this episode, they dive into one of those all-important Ignatian concepts: Discernment. The two Jesuit guests—Mike Tedone and Christopher Alt—talk about how they employed the tools of discernment in their own vocations. One of the most important questions any of us can ask when we stand at the cusp of a major vocational decision is this: How do I know I'm ready? Well, discernment helps us wrestle with that question; and, that question takes center stage today. Christopher was raised in Oshkosh, Wisconsin. He attended the University of San Diego and, later, Boston College. It was there that he met the Jesuits, though it would be a number of years before he took the leap and entered. Mike grew up in Orange County, California. After a volunteer experience with Jesuit Volunteer Corps in Micronesia, he, too, eventually found himself at Boston College where friendships with Jesuit scholastics convinced him that he could become one himself. As you'll hear, both men had to ask hard questions of themselves and of God about their vocation. While there may be few if any quick answers, Christopher and Mike share with us how they went about discovering the right answers for their lives. As you listen to their stories and reflections, I invite you to consider whether you or someone you know might be interested in discerning a call to Jesuit life. If so, head over to beajesuit.org.

For more than 60 years, the Jesuit Volunteer Corps (JVC) has been a pioneer in the service landscape. With over 100 volunteers each year and over 12,000 alumni, they are one of the largest lay, Catholic, full-time volunteer programs in the world. JVC gives young adults the opportunity to engage in service and solidarity with local communities, rooted in the values of spirituality, simple living, community and social justice. Host Mike Jordan Laskey recently spoke with JVC's president, Tom Chabolla, who has served in the role since 2018. Tom has more than 30 years working in faith-based and community-development organizations and he brings a wealth of expertise to the role. Mike asked Tom about what inspires him in his work, plus how he and his team navigated the pandemic. They also talked about the challenges JVC and other similar organizations are facing today and how they're responding. This conversation is the second part of a two-week series on full-time volunteer programs in the Ignatian family. Be sure to listen to last week's conversation between my colleague Eric Clayton and Mary McGinnity, president and CEO of the Ignatian Volunteer Corps, which typically works with volunteers quite a bit older than JVs, folks who have spent decades in career and family life. Jesuit Volunteer Corps: https://www.jesuitvolunteers.org/ About Tom Chabolla: https://www.jesuitvolunteers.org/jvc-news/meet-tom-chabolla-jvc-s-new-president-jvc-is-proud-to-welcome-tom-at-the-helm-of-the-organization-starting-november-1 www.jesuits.org/ www.beajesuit.org/ twitter.com/jesuitnews facebook.com/Jesuits instagram.com/wearethejesuits youtube.com/societyofjesus jesuitmedialab.org/

In this final episode of Season three, Siobhan Kiernan from the class of 2021 speaks with Sean O'Connor from the class of 1992. As a fundraiser and member of the Holy Cross Annual Fund Team, Siobhan talks with Sean about his accomplished career in fundraising. Today, he continues to make a difference as the Chief Development Officer at the National Audubon Society. Their conversation gives you a behind-the-scenes look at what it takes to support the nonprofit organizations that we love. The Holy Cross mission of serving others is central to the work that they do. As people foreign with others, their careers modeled the idea of doing well while doing good. Interview originally recorded in August 2022. --- Sean: When I'm being reflective of the relationship between the effort and the work that I've applied my daily profession to the outcome, it completely aligns with my worldview of actually helping other people and helping organizations and helping the world. Whether it's through art, or healthcare or science or human rights or conservation, I feel pretty good about that. Maura: Welcome to Mission Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, from the class of 2007, Director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. In this final episode of Season three, Siobhan Kiernan from the class of 2021 speaks with Sean O'Connor from the class of 1992. As a fundraiser and member of the Holy Cross Annual Fund Team, Siobhan talks with Sean about his accomplished career in fundraising. After a year in the Jesuit Volunteer Corps, Sean accepted a role raising funds for a small Catholic school on the Lower East Side of Manhattan. Thanks to the support and encouragement of some Holy Cross alumni, he accepted a position with CCS fundraising, which brought his fundraising overseas and greatly expanded the scope of his work. Today, he continues to make a difference as the Chief Development Officer at the National Audubon Society. Their conversation gives you a behind-the-scenes look at what it takes to support the nonprofit organizations that we love. The Holy Cross mission of serving others is central to the work that they do. As people foreign with others, their careers modeled the idea of doing well while doing good. Siobhan: Hello everyone. My name is Siobhan Kiernan and I am a 2021 Holy Cross grad, and current member of the Holy Cross Fund Team. And I'm joined here with Sean O'Connor. Hello, how are you? Sean: Hi Siobhan. Good to see you again. Siobhan: Yeah, you too. Where are you zooming from? Sean: I'm zooming from Goldens Bridge, New York, which is Northern Westchester County near Bedford and North Salem. Siobhan: Nice. Oh my gosh. I'm zooming from New York City, so... Sean: Oh wow. Whereabouts? Siobhan: In like little... I'm on the Upper East Side right now. It's where I grew up. Sean: Oh, that's right. I grew... For a while. I lived on 83rd and third when I did all this. Siobhan: Oh yes, we talked about this. Sean: Yeah, right. Siobhan: Oh, that's awesome. Are you from New York? Sean: No, I actually grew up in Worcester, Massachusetts where there's a school called Holy Cross, is there I think. And I in that way was born at St. Vincent Hospital and then grew up really in Holden, Massachusetts, which is just north of Worcester. And I went to Wachusett Regional High School. And I know your next question is why I don't have an accent, but for some reason I dropped the Worcester accent. When I went to Holy Cross, actually, ironically, I think my accent started to go away. Siobhan: They ironed it out of you. Sean: They must have ironed it out of me, yes. I could put on the Worcester accent, but only under severe pressure. Siobhan: That's so funny. I've been told that I don't have a New York accent either. Sean: No, you don't. Siobhan: So I guess there's something about Holy Cross and taking out accents. So you kind of really just started this, I guess, but why Holy Cross? I mean, I know you're from Worcester, but some people I know probably wouldn't have wanted to go to a school in their hometown. So why did you stay, and what about Holy Cross made you want to go there? Sean: It is a family school. For me, my grandfather was class of '31 and my father was class of '66. My uncle was class of '62. I think even have one of my other father's relatives went there. And so I always had heard about Holy Cross. And I lived on campus, I didn't commute even though I was about 10 miles away from Worcester, or from home rather. But it was obviously one of the most important decisions I made as a young person. And then probably, in truth, is probably the best school I got into when I was applying for colleges. That was another part as well. Siobhan: No, but that worked out. The one thing I love about Holy Cross is that you can feel very much away even if you are local. Sean: Right. Siobhan: I have friends who lived off campus and I remember I always lived on campus and my thought process was, you have your whole life to live outside the gates of Mt. St. James. Why would you want to go now? Sean: Right, for sure. But I enjoyed it. It was great. Siobhan: Yeah. So what was your time on campus? What did you do? What did you major in? What activities did you like to do? Sean: I was a history major, and I took my academics semi-seriously, I think. I'm a lifelong reader and I probably am still interested in history and read a lot of William Durant history surveys when I'm on the plane on a tarmac or something like that. So I still enjoy learning, but I spent a lot of time on extracurricular activities. I didn't play sports, and maybe once in a while would play a soccer pickup game if one existed. But I was involved in the radio station, I was the station manager for a year. Siobhan: Oh cool. Sean: And a DJ. And then I was involved, I think in one of the campus activity boards, I think my senior year. Is it called SS or something? I'm trying to remember then what the acronym was. Siobhan: Or is it CAB? I mean, today I think it's probably the equivalent. Sean: Something like that. I would put on concerts at Hogan. I did one concert. I think I almost got kicked off campus because I did not go through the proper channels of getting permits and things like that. So I learned a lot at college about doing things like that. We had a band called The Mighty, Mighty Boss Tones playing in the basement, which was a fun, legendary show. And then when I was at the station, radio station, we did a kind of benefit concert for the Worcester Coalition for the Homeless in Worcester. There was a band named Fugazi that we brought up to Worcester and did a show, which is fun. So we did some fun stuff connecting Worcester where I grew up to Holy Cross. I was also a resident assistant in the Mulledy basement. So yeah, it was a fun four years. Siobhan: Wow. So you mentioned you were a history major. I'm always curious, because I did economics, why history? And did you have a favorite class? Sean: I kind of go back and forth between really US history and European history or world history. And I did take an African history class, which is pretty influential. Professor David O'Brien was my advisor and he's kind of a labor and Catholic historian. And I still am interested in labor history. I can get really geeky I suppose, about history. I just really do enjoy it in terms of understanding patterns and issues and big issues that we're facing now as a country, and what are the historical analogs, and what has happened in the past that informs where you are right now. And all my family were English majors or our English majors. I think my daughter is an English, is going to become an English major, not a history major. My son was a poly sci major at Bucknell and a film major. But history is, I just enjoy it. And I go back and forth. I probably read more non-US history these days, but it's an escapism too for me. Dealing with everything else, it's kind of fun to read about the Age of Enlightenment or something like that, and just learn about different thinkers and different parts of history that you weren't aware of. And then if you get really excited, you can go deep on those things and get really geeky. Siobhan: I took one history class in Holy Cross, and I found that I almost felt like an investigator, like a detective, which as an economics major it is... That's a different way of thinking. So actually I have a lot of respect for the history department. Cause you very much have to tell a story, and really unpack documents and things. And I think that's... Sean: Yeah, for sure. Siobhan: And you mentioned your professor. I always love to hear about, because the school is so small and the community is so great. Is there anyone that comes to mind who had a meaningful impact on you at Hogan? Sean: Academically, David Chu, who is my accounting professor, and I just didn't do as well in accounting, but that taught me a lot about the importance of studying, actually. There was a professor Whall when I took my early survey class in history, which kind of awakened me to academic writing in a different way. And I lifeguarded at the pool, so got to hang out with the late Barry Parenteau who just passed away. And that was fun times there. And then some of the student life people, I think Dean Simon, I'm trying to remember his name, but he was the one that I worked with a little bit in my senior year. He was the Student Life Dean, if I remember correctly, out of Hogan. And then actually career advisors towards the end. I think one of the more influential people in my career, if we segue into that section, is this John Winters, who is there as a career advisor who really got me on the pathway of where I am right now. Siobhan: Oh, fabulous. Actually, that was a great segue. That was actually my next question was going to be, could you just take me through from commencement to where you are? Sean: Sure. Siobhan: Your journey. I did look into your bio a little bit and you had a very vast career so far, but I want to hear about it from you, your whole journey. Sean: So when I got out of school, I remember second semester, senior year, gosh knows what you're going to do. But I think I interviewed, think at some advertising agency, Leo Burnett, that has historically hired Holy Cross grads and did not get the interview. But I was able to go to Chicago for that all day interview, which was kind of fun. Get to stay in the fancy hotel for the first time. And then when I got out of school I ended up going to Jesuit Volunteer Corps. So I did the Jesuit Volunteer Corps in the northwest and was stationed, or placed, I guess is the language in Auburn, Washington, which is between Seattle and Tacoma. And my placement, or my job, the volunteer job was working at a residential youth shelter for physically and sexually abused kids. And I was doing that for a year. And so my job was to take to care of them, drive them to school, make them dinner, take them on field trips, and then talk to them. And then, learning what it meant to be a social worker and would write about my day and my interactions to help the therapists and the psychologists who are helping them connect the dots about what issues they were facing. They were typically there for a couple of weeks. It was transitional short term, before they might have been between foster placements or they might have been just removed from the home. And the state was trying to figure out what to do with them. So it was a very eye-opening experience, making $20 a week living in a community in the Jesuit Volunteer Corps. But that moment I was actually really interested in understanding how nonprofits were financed. I was like, all right, so how did they actually get the money to do the work? How does it actually work? So I was able to understand a little bit about the particular organization I was volunteering at. It was called Auburn Youth Resources. And they would receive a lot of money from the King County, which is the local county outside of Seattle. But the philanthropy piece, that people would give them money was relatively small. And anyways, it was, it's an opportunity for me to think about that. I wanted to do good but also do well. And I think a lot of this has to do with Holy Cross, but also that my parents or both teachers. My brother's a teacher, my sister's a teacher, my other sister who went to Holy Cross works in nonprofits as well, she was class of '95. So I think that, my family upbringing and combined with Holy Cross in terms of its ethos of men and women for others, I think really kind of pushed me into this career, which wasn't really a career back then. I don't know if you want me to keep going, but when I got back from the year of volunteer work and I came back to the East Coast, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I lived in Worcester, outside of Worcester. I thought I wanted to move to Boston where, because I was nearby that was a big city, or move to Washington DC where a lot of my roommates were and friends. But John Winter in the Career Center said, did you ever think about development? And I said, what's development? And we talked more about it, what that actually meant. And he connected me with a guy named Pat Cunningham, who I think is class of '85. And Pat Cunningham worked in New York City, and at the time he worked for the Archdiocese of New York. And the program there was that they were trying to help small Catholic parochial schools become sustainable. So small Catholic schools in New York City were always a big deal for helping teach kids and families who didn't have a lot of money, but get a good education. The outcomes were terrific. Typically, a lot of the kids went on to college. But the financial model was becoming challenging, because the religious communities who would tend to teach at those schools was diminishing. So they would have to hire lay teachers, you don't have to pay a Sister as much as you have to pay a layperson. So I think that caused like, oh my goodness, tuition is not covering the cost. And so they were trying to figure out a way could they raise money? Like private high schools, like St. John's in Shrewsbury or St. John's in Danvers, as BC High or Notre Dame Academy, they tend to raise money from their alums or parents. Pat Cunningham's job was to figure that out with some parochial schools in New York. There was a philanthropist who just passed away a couple of years ago, a guy named Richard Gilder, who was a Jewish, who founded a company Gilder, Gagnon, & Howe. Anyways, he believed in Catholic education and funded a lot of these schools. He believed in the outcomes and giving back in the community. And so he was essentially underwriting director and development positions. So the salary that a director of development would require. So there was an opportunity for me to work at a school called St. Columba Elementary School, which is on 25th between eighth and ninth without any experience at 23 years old. Siobhan: Is it still there? Sean: It is still there. But unfortunately, the school is closed and is now probably a private or a charter school. It Is the school... Had a couple famous alums, Whoopi Goldberg, graduated from... it's the school Whoopi Goldberg graduated from St. Columba, and as well as a singer from the sixties and seventies, Tony Orlando went to St. Colo. He's a guy who sang Tie A Yellow Ribbon and Knock Three Times. You ever hear those songs? No. Knock three times on the ceiling. Siobhan: Maybe. Sean: Yeah. I don't want to sing it. So what I had to do is work with the sisters and figure out a way to help raise money. And I learned a ton. It was fun. I started talking to some of the colleagues who were doing the similar work in the city, and we created a consortium of colleagues, I think we called it ourselves development, gosh, I forgot what we called it. Ourselves like Development Resources, Development Resource Group, I think DRG maybe. In any case, we would meet and just try to do some brainstorming and figure out how to solve problems. And we actually got some funding to actually help our little mini consortium. And I was there for about a year. It was fun. Siobhan: And then I know that you also did some foundation work, correct? Sean: Yeah. So after what? So I was doing that for a year, and then I had heard about this big company called CCS Fundraising and it's called... At the time it was called Community Counseling Service. And it's still around. It's a big, big fundraising company. And at the time, back when I was there, it's probably quadrupled since I was working there. Any case, we didn't have any money at St. Columba for professional development. So there was this big conference in New York called Fundraising Day in New York. And it is held every, it's the third Friday of June every year. So it's like a one day, it's one of the biggest fundraising conferences in New York. But to go to it, you know, it's like $600 or something like that. And we didn't have any money at St. Columba to do that. And so there was a scholarship opportunity. So if I wrote an essay to the committee that they would send scholarships out. So I wrote an essay to the committee and they underwrote my admission. So I was able to go to the event. And at the event I ran into an executive at CCS Fundraising and talked to him. He encouraged me to apply to CCS, which I did. And then I got a job with CCS Fundraising, which really did change my career for the good. And they sent me all around the world and helped train me in fundraising. And it was great. I was there for a long, long time. And that's where I did do some foundation work. So to continue on that, so when I got to CCS, I went to Yorkshire, England to do some work for the Diocese of Leeds and raise money there. So essentially CCS as a company that would get hired by nonprofits to actually help them raise money. Siobhan: Like a consultant. Sean: A hundred percent like a consultant. And it's weird because you'd be 24 years old or 25 years old and you're a consultant. And I remember a lot of my family friends is like, what do you know? You're just a kid. And there was a lot of truth in that, because I didn't know what I was doing. But the way the model worked at CCS was that they would train you, and there was actually different levels of consulting. And actually modern consulting firms like McKinsey have a similar model where you have the partners who are the thought leaders, and the business development people who actually find the clients. And they just need people to do the work. And those are the directors, the associate directors who essentially just took direction from the leadership. And in the case of going to the Diocese of Leeds, my charge was to work with parishes and coordinate, manage, design and execute what I would call mini-campaigns for each of those parishes. So I would go to the priest, I would orient the priest on the plan, we'd recruit a leadership team and go out and raise money. It was a very, very difficult assignment, but I learned a lot about resilience and persuasion and problem-solving and persistence and all that stuff, because it was a very intense five or six months. But it was fun. Get to live in Yorkshire in the middle of the winter when you're 24, 25 years old. That was great. Siobhan: I was going to say, that also just sounds really cool because you kind of get to dabble in so many different types of advancement. I know in development, I remember when I first learned about it, I was like, oh, that's like for schools. And I'm like, wait, no. There's fundraising for hospitals and political campaigns and nature organizations, which I want to get to eventually. Sean: And human rights organizations or arts and cultural groups. I think that that's a really good point, Siobhan, because where I got really lucky was that I, and it really serves me well right now at this stage in my career that I have a very diverse set of experiences and what we call multi-sector kind of experience. I'm not just a higher ed fundraiser, I've done every single type of nonprofit fundraising. And when you do that, you get to see where the commonalities are, and what the challenges are. Everything from a museum on Japanese sculptor named Isamu Noguchi, or to Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory in Long Island, with Dr. Watson, who just basically discovered DNA. So I've been very blessed with having been exposed, and working with very different kinds of organizations. And I know that at this point in my life, there's not a lot of people who have that kind of experience. And so that kind of becomes my professional marker, I guess. So the person who's done a lot of big complex organizations, but also a lot of small organizations too. Siobhan: So I have two questions on that. The first is, it's a soft question. In all of those different types of fundraising, which was your favorite, I guess what kind of fundraising was most enjoyable for you? Sean: I do the arts and cultural world because I find the board and the people to be very interesting and fun to work with. It is perhaps the hardest sector to work on because a lot of what we do is 400 billion is given away by people and corporations and foundations every year. And the top sector, it's religion, is probably the largest recipient of philanthropy, healthcare and education come in pretty close after that. So you're going to get a lot, it's not saying it's easier to raise money in higher ed, in healthcare, but in some ways it is because in healthcare it typically centers around solving a problem or the so-called grateful patient. "Dr X saved my life, I'm going to give him all my money or a lot of my money" and higher education is "professor Y saved my life and got me on the right path, so I'm going to give money there." Arts and cultural tends to be not necessarily the top priority people. It could be second or third or maybe sometimes fourth. And so it's harder sometimes, but I find it to be more interesting. And then in terms of my most enjoyable experience, probably when I worked in London again in 2000, when I got to do some work with the International Accounting Standards Board, which sounds very boring, but the job was very exciting because what the job was, was to raise money for an organization that was trying to harmonize accounting standards around the world. Siobhan: Oh, cool. Sean: I got to travel around Europe to actually interview executives on their willingness to support this cause, this kind of new plan. And it was just fun working on that kind of scale. One of the great things about this, that I've enjoyed about my career is that I have to learn about every kind of thing. I'm not an expert on accounting, but I have to be able to have a conversation about it. I'm not an expert on art museums, but I have to be able to at least have a conversation about it. And here at Audubon, I'm not an ornithologist, but I have to be able to talk about climate change and the importance of eelgrass in San Francisco Bay. Because what I'm doing is representing these organizations, and serving as the middle person between philanthropy and good causes. And that's on thing I think my profession's about. It's not about asking for money, in a weird way. It's really about creating an environment where you create opportunities for people who have money, who want to give away money, to do it in a way that they feel comfortable doing it. Siobhan: No, I feel the same way, especially in connecting with alums. It's not about asking them for money. It's about what did you love about Holy Cross and how can you support that again? Sean: Exactly. Siobhan: But you mentioned Audubon. And I just, so again, with advancement just being so vast, if I'm being honest, I didn't know that such an organization existed. When I saw that that's where you work, I was like, oh my God, of course that would exist. Sean: I'm going to have to do more work then, Siobhan to make sure you hear about this. Siobhan: But it makes sense. Birds are so important, and the environment is such, no pun intended, but a hot topic right now. But how did you, I guess, find that organization and what brought you there? Sean: Yeah. Siobhan: Is that one of your passions too? Is the environment something that strikes... Sean: It is, I think certainly climate change and birds over time. The truth is that they found me and reached out to me. And then, right now at this stage of my career, I think when I was a little younger... And I have some advice about careers too, but, and this is what I share with people, is that you really do want to go to a place where the people, you kind of vibe with the people that you're going to work with. I think mission is very important, but as you're building a career, it's very important to find people that believe in you, give you the resources to be successful in where you can learn. At Audubon, at this stage of my career, because I have a leadership role, I can control some of those things. I can control the type of culture I'm trying to create with my team, and which I think is very, very important for fundraisers. For fundraisers to stay, is actually understanding what makes motivates fundraisers and what motivates development. Because I think a lot of this is, there's some similar aspects I think to a really good fundraising personality. But Audubon, I think the reason why I'm here is because they wanted to grow. And one of the things I've learned about my career recently is that there's some people who are comfortable in a status quo environment. And then there's some people who just like to build things. And I'm certainly in the ladder, and part of this is because of my consulting background. I like to solve problems, and figure out a way to grow. I know that sounds like every organization wants to do that, but not necessarily. Because I think in order to do that, there has to be an alignment between the board and the leadership of the organization, and actually a really good case of why growth is needed. And then of course they need to invest. So you need to spend money to raise money. All those elements were in place when I was talking to Audubon about five and a half years ago with leadership. So if I see alignment between the Chair of the Board and the CEO, and if they kind of align with the Chief Development Officer or the person who's in charge of raising money, that's when really great things can happen. Because this is never, in my view, a money issue. There's plenty of money in this world right now. This is always a strategy problem. How are we getting the money? How are we telling our story? Do we have the mechanical pieces in place? Do we have the right people? Are they trained? Do we have the right leadership in place? Those are the things that staff ultimately control. And if they are in the right spot, and doing it the right way, the money should come. It's very difficult to get all that stuff figured out. And that's really, at the end of the day, that's what the work is. Is that I think good fundraisers have a vision for what the word will look like or feel like. At any given day, I know what kind of meeting I'm trying to design between a board member and my CEO, and I know what I want them to say and I know who I want in the room. So I'm always trying to get to that point. Not as easy as it sounds, because it just takes time to get all those things in place, and to make sure that the conversation's happening. And making sure you have answers to all the questions that funders want. So for instance, at Audubon we're... Bezos gives a wait a lot of money for climate, we spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to make that approach happen the right way. I don't want need to digress, but that's a lot of it how I think of it. Siobhan: No, and that's awesome. Actually, so I have a few questions that are going in different directions, so I'll see if I can loop them all together. So the first one is, I guess, what keeps you in this work? What drives your day? What kept your passion in the work that you're doing? Sean: Well, yeah, there were times, I remember in 2000, 2001 during the first dot com boom, I remember I would've been about 30 or so, there was a lot of people in my peer group trying to go to dotcom and early in internet stage companies. And I did talk to some people, this is after I got back from London. And I remember talking to some, what I would call philtech. Phil, P H I L technology, so philanthropy technology companies that were starting at that time and ultimately did not pursue them. And then on occasion, during the late two thousands or before the 2008 recession, could I parlay this experience into some kind of for-profit thing? I think ultimately, what kept me is, which is what you hear when you hear people give career advice when you're younger is, and I think there's a lot of truth to this, is if you actually like what you do and eventually you become good at it, then everything else takes care of itself. So I really do like what I'm doing, and I've become pretty good at it. And so then everything else takes care of itself. And being intentional about the different moves you make. And because designing a career is... I'm not saying it's a full-time job, but you cannot approach that casually. You have to be attainable about it. And what I mean by that is that whenever you go to an organization, and it doesn't really matter what sector we're talking about, but certainly in the fundraising sector, you want to understand not only how you're going to be successful there, but what will it lead to? What if you're successful at XYZ organization, will it give you an opportunity to grow within the organization or maybe even go to another organization, that type of thing. Depending on what you ultimately want to do. You don't have to become a Chief Development Officer. You can become the best frontline fundraiser in an area that you really, really love. And that's the great thing about this sector is that there's a lot of different diverse job functions. You have the development operations side, which is very much oriented towards tech people and people who are data-driven. The foundation relations kind of world, which really solid writers do well in that sector or that section of the work. And then frontline fundraisers are really usually a kind of sales salesperson orientation. Siobhan: I was going to say, as someone who is on the soliciting end of things, I feel like I'm a salesperson for Holy Cross, which I love because as someone, and you get this as someone who benefited from the product, it almost makes the job easy. But I was curious, so as someone, you weren't on both ends of the spectrum, so the soliciting side, which we've said isn't all about asking for money, but sometimes it comes down to, okay, here's my wallet. And then also the giving away of money. How would you, I guess, compare those roles? Because right now, as someone who's just starting out, I find the idea of grant giving and the other side of the work to be intriguing. Sean: It is intriguing. So my experience and foundations, I did some work with the MacArthur Foundation and the Gates Foundation, both those opportunities, I got to obviously work closely with them to understand more how they work. And over my career, I've got to work closely with some foundations. And over my career, I've probably felt the same thing that you're feeling, oh, it would be fun to get away money. But it's funny, they kind of have the same challenges in some ways because they... And I think that that actually helps you become a good fundraiser with foundations. To kind of boil this down, everyone has a job and everyone has to do things. So if you're a foundation officer, you have to do things, you have to give away money. And it is hard to give away money, because you're going to be evaluated on how the partnerships that you developed, did you squander the money or did you give the money away smartly? And if you gave the money away, did you do a good job following up in a and actually evaluating their efficacy? And that is hard. And there's a lot of pressure. And so if you orient yourself as a, now I'm going on the solicitor side, if you orient yourself to, I'm going to make this person's life easier, then you're talking to them like a person and you're creating a partnership. How can I help you with your job, or what you have to do? We're a good organization, we're going to communicate with you, we're going to spend your money the right way. Then it's a great thing. So you're not really asking them for money, you're really creating a partnership. And I think that that makes all the things in the world. But then if you think about designing strategies for a billionaire who wants to, some billionaire from Holy Cross calls you Siobhan and said, Siobhan, I want you to run a foundation for me and figure out... I want to give away money to human rights organizations and arts organizations in South America, and I'm going to give you a budget and you figure it out. So what would you do? You would probably start creating a network. You would go travel and see some, understand the issue. Go to South America, go visit museums, create a network of people, and then start to give away money. Yes, that would be fun. That would be really fun. But going to a big foundation and running a program, you do have to be a subject matter expert. Oftentimes, not all the time, because now there are a lot of foundations out there that I've been encountering that will hire a friend, someone they trust to actually help them with their foundation. I met this foundation recently where, all of a sudden they found themselves with a whole lot of money and they wanted to create this foundation because that's what the estate had directed them to do. And they're going to find the person that they trust. And so sometimes that person's not a subject matter expert, but they're a trusted advisor to the family. But if you're a subject matter expert in human rights, you're coming at it from a different direction. You're an academic that goes into a foundation. But I do think it's a growing, obviously a growing field as the wealth inequality continues to increase. I'll just give you a little tidbit on, this is one of my favorite facts. When I started in the business, mid-nineties, I would always go to the Hudson News in Grand Central and buy the Forbes 400, which would come out, I guess it would come on the fall. I'm trying to remember when it did. But I always loved that because I would go home on the train and just read it, and learn about the families who had wealth. And I quickly learned that not everybody, wealth and philanthropy are not the same thing. People with money and people who are philanthropic, there's like a Venn diagram in the middle. But to be the four hundredth, wealthiest person on that list, right back in the mid-nineties, the net worth was 400 million or something like that. It's a lot of money. What do you think it is today? Siobhan: It's more. Because I feel like... I was going to say, I feel like, because nowadays, and maybe it's because I work in fundraising, a million dollars doesn't seem like that much money anymore. Sean: Something like 1.7 billion. Siobhan: I was going to say at least a billion dollars. Sean: So why that's extraordinary. Not only how much it's gone up. Might be 1.4, but I know it's something like that. There's a whole lot of people below that. We don't even know who those people are. Siobhan: Wow. Sean: They're not necessarily publicly known. So the amount of people... It used to be rather, you used to be able to understand where the wealth was. And now I think you just don't, A very interesting world we live in now in terms of the relationship between wealth, philanthropy, and our business. There's a lot of new philanthropists coming on board that are coming out of the nowhere, partly because they're just not as well known. It's just more. There's more opportunity. That's why we're not really at a wealthy, it's not about money, it's about strategy. Siobhan: I was also going to say, I find... At least I can relate to least the capacity because sometimes, you use all the data that you have and you assume that someone has this profile, but you could either be over assuming, but then you could also be easily under assuming too. There are probably people that you don't think they would give maybe over a thousand dollars. But if you go about it, as you were saying, strategy, if you talk to them, if they're into music and you talk to them about the new performing arts center, you might inspire their generosity more than if you're talking to them about a new basketball court. Sean: I think that that's a hundred percent right. And I think, that's why I think it sounds a little old school. I think research can be a little overdone. I love research by the way. I think that my research team, they call me an, I'm an honorary researcher because on occasion, if I'm sitting in front of the TV or something like that, I'll go deep on some name and I just love finding these little nuggets of information. I'll send our director of prospect research these random emails. I said, look into this, look into that. Because at least at Audubon, I'm looking into people who care about climate, who care about birds, who care about... Siobhan: Again, that is so unique. Sean: Well, there's one, if you look on... Here's one of the cool things about birds besides the fact they're cool. If you go to... The Fish and Wildlife Service did a report on one of the most common outdoor activity, obviously gardening is actually probably the top. Birding is actually second or so. They estimate over 40 million people at one point in their life have gone out and watched birds, whether it's in their backyard or something like that. It's an awful lot of people. Siobhan: It is a lot of people. That's a fun fact. Sean: Yeah, it drives our work for sure. And we're doing this cool thing. This is kind of a little bit out of sequence, but we have this thing called Bird Song, which is this project we're doing. In fact, you can look on Spotify, and this has been in the New York Times. A music supervisor, a guy named Randall Poster who works with Wes Anderson and Martin Scorsese approached Audubon, and he got the bird bug over the pandemic because he was at home and listening to birds. He approached all of his musician friends, people like Jarvis Cocker and Yo-Yo Ma and Yoko Ono and Karen O and Beck to do songs inspired by Bird Song. And so he has 180 tracks. He's also asked his actor friends like Liam Neeson and Matthew McConaughey and Adrien Brody to read poems that are about birds, including a bird poem written by another Holy Cross alum, Billy Collins, who is a poet who wrote a poem about sandhill cranes in Nebraska. He has Conor Oberst from Bright Eyes reading that poem. Anyways, there's going to be a big album, a box set release, and all the money's going to go to Audubon. Siobhan: That's awesome. Sean: Birds are having a moment. Siobhan: Birds are having a moment. It's a bird's world and we're just living in it. Sean: It is. That's a good way of putting it, I'm going to borrow that. Siobhan: You can totally, as long as you give me copyright credit. Sean: I'll absolutely give you copyright, and all the royalties. Siobhan: Exactly. And I do want to just be cognizant of time, but as the podcast is about Holy Cross's mission and how it influenced your life, and I know you did talk about this a little bit at the beginning. I just wanted to hear more about how Holy Cross impacted your life and your work, and maybe Holy Cross' mission in addition to being men and women for others. Sean: I found a profession that I think in the beginning it might not have made sense, but I have to tell you now, at my age, there's a lot of people, a lot of friends who went to all lacrosse and other places are some ways jealous of this career because... So I have this ability to do well and do good. Use persuasion techniques or skills that could be implied to advertising or banking or some other sales job. But when I'm being reflective of the relationship between the effort and the work that I've applied my daily profession to the outcome, it completely aligns with my worldview of actually helping other people and helping organizations and helping the world, whether it's through art or healthcare or science or human rights or conservation. I feel pretty good about that. And I also feel very fortunate because I don't think I'd be in this profession if it wasn't for Holy Cross, partly because combined with how I was raised and also Holy Cross reinforcing some of those values and elevating them. And then, really the specific moment when Jonathan Winters actually said, hey, you should look into this job. And really made the connection between me as a recent alum and an opportunity with another Holy Cross person. So if Pat Cunningham's listening to this podcast, and I reach out to him once in a while, was a very influential person in terms of where I'm at right now, and I'm very grateful for that. So it's a fun profession. I encourage, I do a lot of connecting with other Holy Cross grads that have helped people. And there's a lot of Holy Cross people that I've met who are in this business, and you try to get together. Because I think there's a really interesting theme here in terms of what we do. And a lot of us are doing, in pretty good organizations, doing really, really good work. So celebrating that as a profession would be fun to do. I actually, Danita Wickwire, who is class of '94 joined my team recently. Which is incredible, because I told her, she reminds me a little bit of why I'm in this profession. Because if you go into this world of fundraising, it's hard to keep up with everything. But then, because she's here and because of our common history at Holy Cross, it's nice to have her because we were able to align around that a lot. And I think she participated in one of these podcasts as well. And she's a really, really influential and important leader in this space as well. Siobhan: Oh, that's awesome. She is an outstanding volunteer and name in our office. So our office is a big fan of Danita, she's great. Also, what I really like too that you said is, I don't know, I find that the job doesn't really feel like work and it's comforting to hear that doesn't change. Sean: It doesn't really. No, it doesn't change. I mean, listen, it's not saying it's easy all the time, but it's certainly fun. Siobhan: And then I guess you kind of touched upon this, but for someone starting out in this work, what is some advice you would give? And then I guess also, looking back on your journey that got you here, is there anything that you would've done differently? Sean: I don't think I have any regrets about choices I've made, also philosophically don't believe in that because I don't think it's helpful. But I think in terms of advice, I do think, and I know this sounds slightly cynical, so I soften this a little bit, but I really do feel it's important to go to a place where your boss and your colleagues believe and align with how you think about this work. I think often, sometimes I see folks make a mistake going to an organization for the mission only, and then what ends up happening sometimes, not all the time, is that the expectations aren't there. And then it can really be a hard place to be. One of the hardest things about this business is... It's a very optimistic, enthusiastic person, but I also know how hard this is and things can go wrong, and you might not have control over certain things. And so educating non-fundraisers, or orienting them about how this work actually unfolds happens with experience. So I'm able to do that with a little bit more ease than I did when I was younger. But be very intentional about your career. If you have a lot of the elements in place, that's great. If you're able to grow, that's great. Don't go for the money, so to speak, or for the mission, make sure everything else is in place. That's my advice. Siobhan: That's very deep. I think that's applicable to anything too. Sean: It is. But I remember, I give a lot of career advice and sometimes I see people, it looks really good, but you got to ask all the right questions, make sure you're asking the questions so you have it all figured out. Siobhan: Yeah. Then I guess, is there any type of organization that you haven't worked with yet that you'd want to? You said you've worked with most of them, but is there anything that maybe in your journey that you've seen... Sean: I was in Columbia last week, the country, because we do a lot of work hemispherically, so I was in Bogota and Cali. I really enjoy, where I think this is headed, and maybe it would be fun, is like this orientation about raising money in other parts of the world. I've done it before, I've done it in England, and it's different in every country and it's evolving and this cultural barriers of this and all that stuff. But I like the way the globalization in terms of how we're thinking about the NGO, bottom up. And also the importance of diversifying our space. Our profession has to be more intentional about how to do that and create space and opportunities for people of color and other backgrounds because there's a lot of history and reasons why it is what it is. And we have to continue to try to figure out ways to open up doors and opportunities that are just not going to happen naturally. You have to be forceful about that. So any place that is in that space. You know what, the weird thing about this space, and I talked to Ron Lawson about this, who's a Chief Operating Officer of a coalition, homeless coalition in New York. It's in a weird way, it's really hard to raise private philanthropy for some social justice issues like homelessness and hunger. Hunger, not as much as it used to be. But I'm always curious about why that is. And there are some organizations that kind of outperform. There's so much money that's given away and there's some sectors that are just not there yet. And that would be fun to understand more why that's happening and help with that too. Siobhan: Cool. I just wanted to see where you were headed next. Sean: I don't know. Siobhan: Nonprofit. Sean: Yeah, it's fun. I'm glad you're in this space and you should keep in touch, Siobhan, it'd be fun to see where your career's going to take you. Siobhan: I was going to say, I'll have you on speed dial. Sean: Good. Awesome. Siobhan: Awesome. And before I let you go, I just wanted to end on a fun little speed Holy Cross round. Sean: Sure. Siobhan: Very quick. Okay. What was your freshman dorm? Sean: Mulledy Siobhan: What was your hardest class? Sean: That economics class with Professor Chu. No, actually accounting class with Professor Chu. Yeah. Siobhan: Nice. Best professor you've ever had? Sean: Probably Professor Chu Siobhan: I see him sometimes, so I'll be sure to let him know. Sean: I think he just retired actually. I thought I just saw that he's retiring soon. Siobhan: He is, but he has his little research. Sean: Yeah, you can tell him that. Tell him, gave him a shout-out. I think I was, it might have been... That was his first year he got here, I think. Siobhan: Oh, that's so funny. Senior dorm? Sean: Carlin. Siobhan: Oh, nice. Sean: Yeah, Carlin Siobhan: Favorite spot on campus? Sean: I guess I liked the radio station. That was a great place to escape. Siobhan: Oh, cute. First meal you think of when you think of Kimball. Sean: Ah, that's good. Probably just like chicken fingers, I guess. They actually existed, I think that they did. Or that Turkey. There's like some kind of Turkey meal that was good there. Siobhan: Oh my goodness. The Thanksgiving Turkey dinner slaps. Best restaurant in Worcester. This is good because you're a local. Sean: Yeah, well the best restaurant right now that I was just like, wow, this is a pretty good restaurant. There's that sushi place on Park Avenue is really, really good actually. And then when I was there, I guess Arturo's was a great Italian place, but that's not, I think that's closed now. Best Breakfast place is probably Lou Roc's on West Boylston Street, which is a really, really good diner. Siobhan: Good to know. Everyone always talks about Miss Worcester's, I'll have to... Sean: Miss Worcester's is good, but Lou Roc's is a little further out, but it's excellent, excellent. Yeah. Siobhan: Oh, fabulous. All right. Your go-to study spot? Sean: The Library right side, as you're walking on the right side. Yeah, not the left side. Siobhan: Okay. And if you were going to campus right now, where are you going first? Sean: I am going to check out this new performing arts center which is the coolest looking building in Worcester, I think. Siobhan: Right? It kind of looks like an airport, but in a good way. Sean: It's a very cool, it's one of the coolest architecture buildings I've seen. And it's certainly one of the coolest things in Worcester. I think it's awesome. I want to go inside it. Siobhan: And then last question, your fondest Holy Cross memory. Sean: Fondest Holy Cross memory? Oh, I don't know. I really enjoy fall at Holy Cross. That's what I enjoyed the most. Yeah, and I like fall in Worcester. Yeah, for sure. Siobhan: That's a good answer. Sean: Yeah. Siobhan: Especially fall at Holy Cross is beautiful. Sean: Yeah, like a football game in the fall. That's probably it. Siobhan: Nice. Wow. Thank you so much for chatting with me. Sean: Thanks Siobhan. Siobhan: Taking the time out of your today. Sean: That was great, thanks. Thanks for the opportunity. Maura Sweeney: That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be people for and with others. A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone would like to be featured on this podcast, then please send us an email at alumnicareers.holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcast. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, "Now go forth and set the world on fire." Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

Bridget Flaherty is the Senior Talent Director at Fractal Software, which is a venture studio launching the next generation of vertical SaaS startups. Before going into talent, Bridget worked at the Jesuit Volunteer Corps. We talk about being a founder, women in the space, and how to get hired: all things applying, interviewing, and creating a cover letter. Reach out to Bridget here: LinkedInWear Your Sunscreen @HabitSkinWear your sunscreen even when it's cold and gloomy. Habit N°41 is the way to go. CODE CLAIRECALFO Die Young As Late as Possible with Bubs Use CLAIRECALFO at checkout for 20% off.Holistic Supplements with Primal HarvestIf you're passionate about your health, check out primal greensDisclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.Support the Show.https://www.instagram.com/momforgottotellyou/ on Instagramhttps://linktr.ee/momforgottotellyou

My guest this episode is John Giuliano. You've probably never heard of him, but he's a real, true hero. And not just in the sense of knowing how he wants to contribute, but actually in terms of the relationship he cultivates between himself and others.   He gets, on a fundamental level, that this distinction between self and other is an illusion, and therefore, that the whole notions of selfishness and altruism have very little ground to stand on.   I met John 20 years ago as a senior in college. He was on a speaking tour of the US, talking about what he had seen in El Salvador, first as a member of the Jesuit Volunteer Corps, then as a combatant in the civil war, then as a negotiator of the peace accords, and finally as a person who dedicated his life to rebuilding the lives, hearts, and buildings in a single village: Guarjila.   I went on to visit John and Guarjila a few weeks later and what I experienced there changed my life forever.   He's one of the greatest teachers and mentors I've ever known. Which is why I gave him carte blanche to be himself in this interview.   So it came out a little different. It's long. It's slow. There are more pauses. A whole history of El Salvador in the 80s. More meandering. And you can really sink into the reality that is John Giuliano.   At the last moment of the interview, over ninety minutes in, I ask John his technique for helping the kids in Guarjila find their mission, their sense of purpose. He's only a few moments into the answer when my daughter interrupts, after having patiently waited for almost two hours.   So that'll be next time. And then we'll talk about the current landscape in El Salvador the time after that. And we'll just keep rolling. I'd love to have John on the show a dozen times this year. So send me any questions you want me to ask him and we'll do it. I got his number. Show Links: Voicemail:  https://www.speakpipe.com/10khshow Email: info@10kh.show Podcast website: http://www.10kh.show Momentum Lab: http://www.momentumlab.com Guest References: John's Project in Guarjila: https://www.tamarindofoundation.org/   About our sponsor: 10,000 Heroes is brought to you by Momentum Lab.    I normally refer to Momentum Lab as a coaching program or a goal accelerator.   But you could also call it a Master's degree in life.   When you join Momentum Lab, you get crystal clear on what it is you actually want. Who you want to be, what you want to do, and how you want to contribute.   And then we get into all the painful details of what has been blocking you this whole time.    Once that's all in the clear, we can give you the knowledge, tools and support to actualize your vision.    Sometimes that's a spreadsheet. Sometimes it's a mindset hack. Sometimes it's a lecture and sometimes it's a hug.   Our only attachment is to your higher self.   So when you're ready to be the next version of yourself and your business for your family, or just for your own sense of fulfillment, drop me a line ;)   www.momentumlab.com

In this episode of In Infinite Ways, Brian Rhude chats with Dr. Susan Timoney, Associate Dean for Undergraduate Studies in the School of Theology and Religious Studies at The Catholic University of America, to discuss how she was slowly prepared by the Lord to take her role at Catholic University from a young age and her formative time with the Jesuit Volunteer Corps.Click here to learn more about the School of Theology and Religious Studies at The Catholic University of America.Click here to listen to learn more about the Jesuit Volunteer Corps. Follow us:The Catholic Apostolate CenterThe Center's podcast websiteInstagramFacebookApple PodcastsSpotify

In this episode of the In Infinite Ways podcast, Jonathan Sitko is joined by Monica Thom Konschnik, Director of Administration for the Catholic Apostolate Center, to discuss Monica's journey from wanting to work in the for-profit sector and how her experience with the Jesuit Volunteer Corps encouraged her to work for the Church.In this episode of the In Infinite Ways podcast, Jonathan Sitko is joined by Monica Thom Konschnik, Director of Administration for the Catholic Apostolate Center, to discuss Monica's journey from wanting to work in the for-profit sector and how her experience with the Jesuit Volunteer Corps encouraged her to work for the Church. To learn more, visit the Catholic Apostolate Center website.Read more about Monica Thom Konschnik here.

In this episode of On Mission, Kate Fowler, Chris Pierno, and Fr. Frank Donio, S.A.C. are joined by Center colleague, Monica Thom Konschnik, Director of Administration and a member of the Board for the Catholic Volunteer Network, to discuss her experience in the Jesuit Volunteer Corps and her work with the Catholic Volunteer Network. Click here to learn more about the Catholic Volunteer Network.Click here to learn more about the Jesuit Volunteer Corps.Click here to access the Center's Lay Ministry and Catholic Social Teaching resource pages. Follow us:The Catholic Apostolate CenterThe Center's podcast websiteInstagramFacebookApple PodcastsSpotify

Episode 1, Season 6 of Messy Jesus Business podcast, with Sister Julia Walsh. "When you are in a place of paradox, you're on holy ground." - Sister Julia Walsh LISTEN HERE: IN THIS EPISODE: In this very special episode of Messy Jesus Business podcast, Sister Julia Walsh takes on the role of podcast guest, and gives us a behind-the-scenes look at the conceptualization of Messy Jesus Business Podcast. Podcast editor Charish Badzinski serves as host for this episode, and together she and Sister Julia explore the lessons of the past 49 episodes, and what it means to say yes to the mess. Sister Julia explains how the program got its start and its name. She also gets the chance to respond to the questions she frequently asks her guests, including offering her thoughts on what radical discipleship means to her, and what she thinks is especially messy. During this episode, we also hear from past guests who pop in to in the join the celebration, as well as podcast listeners who share what listening to Messy Jesus Business means to them. And lastly, Sister Julia gives a sneak peek into possible future topics she'd like to explore in the next 50 episodes. Please note that the Messy Jesus Business team is taking a break over the summer to plan the next 50 episodes, and the podcast will return with fresh content this fall. ABOUT THE GUEST: Sister Julia Walsh is a Franciscan Sister of Perpetual Adoration and part of a new generation of Catholic Sisters. She's often writing and podcasting about the messiness of following Jesus and being Catholic and doesn't hesitate to ask important questions. She can often be found visiting jails, leading retreats, companioning spiritual seekers, advocating for peace, teaching about social justice, praying in the chapel or camping in the woods. Sister Julia has been frequently featured in the media, and is widely published. Julia Walsh grew up on a goat farm in a small community in Northeast Iowa with her parents: Kevin and Elsie, and three siblings. She attended college in Iowa, starting at Wartburg College in Waverly, then ultimately transferring to Loras College to discern her vocation. While a student at Loras in Dubuque, Iowa Julia studied abroad in South Africa and realized her passion for social justice, equality and Gospel living. In 2003 she graduated from Loras College magna cum laude with a BA in History, Secondary Education and Catholic Studies. After graduation Julia interned with the Iowa Catholic Conference in Des Moines, Iowa, and then moved to California and joined the Jesuit Volunteer Corps. As a Jesuit Volunteer, Julia worked with young parents and their children transitioning from homelessness to healthy interdependence at Waking the Village/Tubman House in Sacramento, California. Her experiences in South Africa, as an intern with the Iowa Catholic Conference and in the Jesuit Volunteer Corps helped her to develop her passions for Gospel-centered systemic change. In 2006 Julia entered the Franciscan Sisters of Perpetual Adoration, (FSPA) based in La Crosse, Wisconsin. She entered the novitiate and received the name Sister in 2007. She professed first vows in 2009 and perpetual vows in 2015. Sister Julia began her teaching ministry at Catholic high schools in Chicago where she lived and served from 2008 to 2012. In 2012, Sister Julia moved to La Crosse, Wisconsin to be closer to her community's motherhouse and minister at Aquinas High School, where she served as a theology teacher until 2016. In the fall of 2016, Sister Julia joined the staff of Marywood Franciscan Spirituality Center on Trout Lake in the Northwoods of Wisconsin, where she presented programs and retreats and served as a freelance writer. In August 2017, Sister Julia graduated from Catholic Theological Union in Chicago with a Master of Arts in Pastoral Studies. Sister Julia returned to Chicago in August 2019 and became a certified spiritual director though the Claret...

Season 5, episode 8 of Messy Jesus Business podcast, hosted by Sister Julia Walsh. "There's an emptiness...there's a hole we are perpetually trying to fill....and the hole is God." -Brother Matt Wooters LISTEN HERE: IN THIS EPISODE: In this episode of Messy Jesus Business podcast, Sister Julia Walsh talks with Brother Matt Wooters about how he became a Jesuit, and his work in vocations. "I think sometimes people think...in vocation work, we're in sales. And I'm really not interested in selling anything," Br. Matt explains. "I believe that everyone has a vocation, I don't believe everyone has a Jesuit vocation. And so my job is to accompany young men to see where their vocation might be, even if it's not with us." They also discuss how discerning a religious vocation works today. "I think a vocation is a combination of your skills...your best self, where is the need in the world, and what's something you can't not do. So it's something you keep thinking about," he says. They also discuss swimming, how it is a form of prayer for Br. Matt, and how he has integrated his passion for swimming into his vocation. Finally, we talk about the mess of showing up, and how commitment means we have to show up even when the going gets tough. ABOUT THE GUEST: Brother Matt Wooters is a native of Washington, DC. He joined the Jesuits in 2012 after graduating from John Carroll University. After college, he served for two years with the Jesuit Volunteer Corps in Belize. He holds graduate degrees in Social Work and Theology from Saint Louis University and Santa Clara University, respectively. Br. Matt has spent most of his life working with people experiencing homelessness, migrants, and those struggling with addiction. He is an open water swimmer, a podcaster, and a lover of stand-up comedy. CONTEMPLATIVE MOMENT is taken from Suscipe, a prayer from St. Ignatius of Loyola. MESSY JESUS BUSINESS is produced and hosted by Sister Julia Walsh, and edited by Charish Badzinski. Email us at messyjesusbusiness@gmail.com BE SOCIAL:https://www.facebook.com/MessyJesusBusiness https://www.instagram.com/messyjesusbusiness Twitter: @messyjesusbiz SUPPORT US: https://www.patreon.com/messyjesusbusiness

That's the voice of Egypt Worthy, and the little bodies she's talking about are the third graders she worked with as a City Year Volunteer back in 2016.  National Service is a topic that is near and dear to my heart. Anybody that knows me knows that joining the Jesuit Volunteer Corps myself, after I graduated from Boston College, literally changed the course of my life.Over the years I've encouraged many of my students to choose to step into service because I know the impact it can have when you take that leap of faith and sign on the dotted line. It's not always easy, but leaning into the discomfort changes you. It's the paradox of giving. In the end, it always seems like you get more than you give. That's why I wanted to talk to Egypt. I wanted to understand what motivated her and how serving others shaped the who she is today. She has a Bachelor's degree in Psychology from Newman University in 2014 and is currently getting her Masters degree in Social Work from Widener University. She served in Fema Corps in 2015, City Year in 2016, CareForce in 2017 and she's currently working as an Impact Manager for City Year, back in the same school where she began her service in Philadelphia in 2016.I'm so grateful she's joined us today. Welcome Egypt.City Year Info: City Year Philadelphia (3rd-grade classroom) 2016-2017 Care Force HQ (Boston) 2017-2018 City Year Philadelphia (Impact Manager) Feb. 2020-present You can find Egypt on Social Media here:Instagram Username: @Mstrouble10 Facebook: @Ramses Cannon National Service Organizations mentioned in this episodeCity YearFEMA Corps, Peace Corps and AmeriCorps VISTAJesuit Volunteer CorpsTo learn more about Robert Maggio, the composer of our theme music, please check out his website.To learn more about the inspiration for this podcast, please check out Suzanne's memoir,  Estrellas - Moments of Illumination Along El Camino de Santiago. Find Suzanne on Social Mediahttps://www.suzannemaggio.comOn Instagram: @mamasuzannaOn Facebook: @suzannemaggioauthorOn Twitter: @bottomofninth 

Lynette Saenz, Assistant Secretary for Parish Life and the co-chair of the Diocese's Synod on Synodality joins us with her partner in Synodality, our own Fr. Damian Ference!Here's a link to the Diocesan Synod:  https://www.dioceseofcleveland.org/synodIf you are unable to attend a synod in person, you can participate in an online session by clicking here.For information on volunteering as a year-long volunteer with the Jesuit Volunteer Corps see JesuitVolunteers.org.Pope Francis' address on the opening of the Synod.America Magazine's video on St. Adelbert Parish in Cleveland and their Pastor Fr. Gary Chumura. Fr. Gary is also the pastor of Our Lady of Peace in Cleveland by Shaker Square and we talk about them in this week's Church Search.This week's Scripture Readings for the 2nd Sunday of Lent.

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student & Athlete Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Dr. Mark McConville, a renowned clinical psychologist and author experienced in parenting and child development, as well as adult, adolescent, emerging adult and family psychology. They discuss the struggle many young adults experience transitioning from adolescence to adulthood - a phenomenon Dr. McConville has labeled Failure to Launch. The conversation includes how this struggle came about, tips for parents to help their children get through it and anecdotal advice. Transcript: Susan Stone:                    Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Kristina Supler. We're full-time moms and attorneys, bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real, candid conversations. Today's topic is Failure to Launch. Kristina Supler:               We're so pleased today to be joined by Dr. Mark McConville. Dr. McConville is a family clinical psychologist in private practice here in Cleveland, Ohio. He's lectured and published on child development and parenting across the country. And within his private practice, he has really earned a reputation as the preeminent psychologist for working with patients, young adults, primarily, who are struggling with this adolescent to adult transition, a phenomenon he's labeled Failure to Launch. So we are so pleased to be joined today by Mark McConville. Susan Stone:                    I do have to add, welcome, Dr. McConville… Dr. Mark McConville:     Thank you. Thank you. Susan Stone:                    ... his wife was my daughter, Alex's kindergarten teacher. Dr. McConville, we know you're a famous author, but to me you are Mrs. McConville's husband. Dr. Mark McConville:     That's right. It's like being married to a rock star. We can't go into a restaurant without some young person jumping up across the way and coming over and giving a big kindergarten hug. Kristina Supler:               That's so sweet. Susan Stone:                    I love that. Kristina and I had the pleasure of ordering your book on Amazon. And I still remember Kristina coming in that morning, and when I got to the final chapter, and I read that letter you wrote to 20 somethings, and I read the excerpt from your mother, I just started to cry. I could not stop crying. I just want you to know that. And I said to Kristina, maybe it's because I have two kids now out of college, and one who is a sophomore, but your book made me think about my own parenting, myself going through emerging adulthood, and then all of our clients, and it just brought just a torrential amount of tears. Kristina Supler:               I so enjoyed the book as well. I have a son and a daughter, they're younger. They're not in high school, but nonetheless through our legal practice and what Susan and I deal with every day, sort of know what lies ahead. And I was so struck by your approach in the book. You demonstrated such kindness towards these young adults who are struggling. And while your advice I think was so rooted in sound psychological theories, I also love that it just had such an element of practicality to it. Dr. Mark McConville:     Yeah. That's what comes with being at any line of work for a long time, you begin to tease out what sounds elegant, but isn't really useful. And you discover all kinds of things that are quite ordinary, but are very useful, put in the right context. And one of them, Susan, I certainly did not intend my readers to cry heavily. But I really had in mind that people would understand more compassionately what these people are going through. If I put myself in the shoes of being a client, and over the course of my life I have done, several times. But if I don't feel gotten, if I don't feel that I'm talking with a counselor who gets where I'm coming from, they don't have to necessarily agree with everything I say or think. But if I feel understood, I am so much more available for change. And so that's the part of the premise of the book is that these kids often feel, whether it's true or not, they often feel that their parents don't understand them. And they'll come in and complain about that to a therapist. But when the parent can get to that place of, I can identify with what they're going through. I can see the poor choices, but I understand them better, kids are much more amenable to the parents' strategies and intervention. So, thanks for the shout-out. Susan Stone:                    Thank you for that. Can you help our readers and listeners, because we do put it out both in written and we put our podcast out, understand, how do you define failure to launch? Dr. Mark McConville:     Yeah. I first have to tell you, I objected to that title, but the publishers were adamant. They said, that's what we're calling it at the office. And I knew there'd been a movie by that title. My original title was Getting a Life, as in, get a life. But they said that's a little too subtle. It'll be lost on some people. There is a developmental transition from the world of adolescence to the world of emerging adulthood. And they are very different worlds. Adolescence is organized largely around high school life. Even if you're a disinterested student, it's still in many ways, it's the town square where you live. And that life is organized, plotted out and overseen by adults, by educators. It has evolved over the course of a century and a half. And so while they don't know it, they're living a little bit in The Truman Show. There's a structure to the framework of their being. And when they transition out of that, they often find themselves at sea. Just to give a simple example, there are so many things that growing up, even if you are, let's say you are a highly responsible, effective 11th grader, still, so much of the administrative management of your life has been taken care of by adults. And then that whole college application process starts. And all of a sudden you're expected to fill out forms, solicit teachers for recommendation letters, communicate with the college about roommate selection, et cetera, et cetera. And we'll see these highly competent kids just stall out, because it's a new set of ground rules. And that is often their first introduction. Or for kids who aren't college bound, maybe that first job, the job interview, having responsibilities that actually matter to a store or a restaurant. You really are transformed. If you make it through that transition by age, let's say 25 or 28, you have a whole different sense of yourself, in a sort of fledgling way, but as competent, as knowing more or less what you're doing. And in that transition, you are fraught with experiences of not really having a clue what you're doing. And unfortunately, and this is true more for males than females, often resistant to the kind of support and guidance that would make things much easier. Kristina Supler:               That's really interesting, the resistance to support and guidance. And I love at the beginning of the book, you make this observation that's just so insightful and in line with what Susan and I are seeing in our law practice every day. You say that kids today, they worry more and they risk less, which really ultimately contributes and leads to anxiety, depression. And I know, Susan, wouldn't you agree, every day we're dealing with students who are depressed, anxious. They have ADHD. They've been in therapy. I mean, don't you think they're- Susan Stone:                    They're frozen. We see kids who get to a point where they just freeze. They can't get out of bed. They can't go to school. And then we see the parents trying to overcompensate and say that's okay. And then when you hear the okay, it reinforces it. And then they need a legal defense, and we need them to participate and help us. And then we're told that they can't because being with us is too upsetting. And we're like, wait, we've got to be able to do our job with your child. And it leads to this cycle. Kristina Supler:               I'm just curious to hear your feedback on what got us to this point or contributed to this trend where adolescents and young adults, they're afraid to take risks and everyone's anxious? How did we get here? Dr. Mark McConville:     Yeah. Well, first a comment about the thing of parents, is supporting their kids and not meeting with the two of you. That's very telling. I would not, having met the two of you now, I would not see you as particularly terrifying representatives of the adult world or the real world. I know you're doing serious business, but you both seem to have a very receptive kind of gentle good listening sort of way. So for a parent to say, I have to protect my kid from that experience, tells you the equation is not balanced. There's something out of whack here. The question of how this came about is we could do a symposium on it, because it has a lot to do with how the world has changed from say the time that I was their age. When I was their age, 30% of high school graduates went to college. Today it's more like 70%. When I was their age, had I chosen, I could have taken a bus across town, gone to the employment office at Kodak, and had been making a living wage within a month, bought my first car within three or four months. I could have down payment on a small bungalow by the time I'm 20. I mean, those were options. Those really aren't options today. The amount of education that you need just to get a foothold. And if you talk to kids with good four year educations from good schools, and while some of them land terrific, interesting jobs, many of them are extremely frustrated because the job opportunities, if they can find them, they don't meet their fantasy. Remember, this is the generation that we encouraged dream. Laurel School, dream, dare, do. And it's a wonderful inspiration that we're giving. And I think most kids absorb it and utilize it. You're seeing the ones and I'm seeing the ones who that lofty aspiration becomes a millstone around their neck. I'm not going to live up to that. And so it's harder growing up. Everything you look at, from the cost of housing to the salaries, wages have gone steadily down since 1970. You have to be a much more sophisticated being to make your way in the world. And because of that, your generation of parents, yours specifically, has been the most supportive generation in history. And that's not a knock, that's praise. Because we do in fact have kids who are willing to soar. Why can't I go to medical school? Why can't I become an international business expert? Kids have lofty aspirations. Many of them meet them. I like to look at sports. I have a 13 year old granddaughter who just happens ... Doesn't happen to be, her extraordinary focus and hard work, is a tremendous soccer player, but she has her full parent, grandparent support, an extra soccer coach, leagues that are run by dedicated adults. And I think, boy, we had to go out and make our own team and coach ourselves and call somebody from another school to say, if they wanted to play us on Saturday morning. So the support. So there's a reason why, let's just take this generation of women athletes, imagine them playing a team from 1968, it would be cruelty. It would be cruelty, because they are so much better supported. So there's a lot to be said for support. We only hear about the helicopter parent, the snowplow parent. So parents get dinged for this. But in fact, as a cohort, your generation of parents has done an extraordinary job. Susan Stone:                    I have to share with you, my mother was first generation American. My grandparents all came from Europe to escape oppression. And my mother had a different attitude. I remember saying, "I don't want to do my homework." And she would say, "Don't do your homework, it's your education." And if I would wake up and say, "I don't want to go to school," she'd say, "Your education." And so I took ownership early on, and I was a latchkey kid, so I would go to school, come home, make dinner, help my sister. I think about my own parenting. If my kid said, I don't feel like going to school, I'd be like, "Of course you have to go to school." The question I have is I feel like it's very late. Are there earlier signs in middle school, early high school, before that senior year where you can see? And what can you do to prevent the struggling transition? Dr. Mark McConville:     Yes. Yeah. So it's just a little anecdote. I was doing a radio talk show, and a father called in and said, "I have a three year old. What should I be doing with my three year old?" At first my jaw dropped, but then I said, "Well, you should be sitting down on the playroom floor saying, 'Come on over here, buddy. We're going to pick up these toys together. I'll get all the trucks, so you get all the puzzles.'" That kind of parenting takes so much more time and energy than just picks the damn room up, and put the stuff in wherever it goes. But to sit down and work with that child, where you're really paying attention to the sort of just emergent qualities of initiative and ownership, and that's what your mother did brilliantly. Your mother was a good gambler. She was able to read her opponent. Susan Stone:                    Still is. Dr. Mark McConville:     She knew if she played that card, that you would pick it up. But what she was doing was challenging you to take initiative and ownership. Now, a lot of kids today need more fine-tuned parenting than that. And even when you say to your kids, what are you talking about? Of course you're going to do your homework. That's very efficient parenting, and most kids respond to it. I'm watching my kids parent their kids, and I see that. We don't make an issue of schoolwork because it's not an issue. It's taken granted that you're going to do it. It's out of the question that you wouldn't do it. They don't fight over a lot. But what if you get one of those oppositional kids who seem to come along on their own to nobody's bad parenting, and they come along and say, yeah, it's done. I did it in school. And of course they didn't. And then that's where parenting becomes high maintenance. Kristina Supler:               I mean with the student who, Susie or Johnny, who's been amazing all through school. Has these dreams of going on to a prestigious college. Involved in every extracurricular under the sun. But all of a sudden senior year hits that moment where there's a total loss of initiative, motivation, the student starts to shut down from anxiety about the future and what lies ahead. When parents see that collapse coming on, what can parents do? I mean, what tips do you have? Dr. Mark McConville:     Yeah. We call that senior year collapse actually. And it's a very interesting phenomenon because it's ... Deep in the background of our consciousness, we all sense the passage of time and the passage of life's ground rules. And that's maybe, other than say leaving home for kindergarten or preschool where the ground rules change pretty dramatically, a lot of those kids feel the hoof beats of the future. Like I'm not going to have this support. And we see that more frequently with kids who have been on 504 plans, or they've benefited, because those are kids who have really utilized that support. Some of them, in the context of a therapy session, will be quite insightful. Not all of them, but occasionally there will be a kid that says, I'm afraid of next year. What if I just don't get up, and... Because after all, my mom wakes me up now in the morning. I always get my papers done, but it's usually because there's an email from my English teacher telling my parents that I'm a week behind, or something like that. And that get intuits, I may be in trouble. So, how to respond to it. I'll give you the template, the model. Younger, there's a phenomenon called a school avoidance. We used to call school phobia. So you might have an eight or a 10 year old, they're hanging onto the door jam. "I'm not going." The protocol for intervention is by hook or by crook, you call Uncle Vinny. He comes over, picks the kid up, puts him in the car, you take them to school, whether they have to sit in the nurse's office or in the library, doesn't matter. They got to know that being in school is not a negotiable. And the great majority of those kids, I'm going to guesstimate, 90%, they adapt. Their little brain says, well, well, I guess I have to do it, and then they do it. The other 10%, what they're signaling us, and the tragedy is we often don't know it until we put them in school, then the nurse or the counselor says nothing positive is happening. I came in my counseling office the other day, and he was hiding under the desk. Then we know we have more of a mental health issue. We have a kid that quite likely does in fact warrant a diagnosis and treatment intervention for anxiety, perhaps depression. So it's a hard thing for parents because the kind of gentle tough love thing is often necessary to clarify the diagnosis. I mean, there's a lot of diagnosing that way. And we see that with the same thing with the high school senior, the parents who say, uh-uh (negative), I'm sorry, you are going to school. One mental health day a month, but no more. Something like that. And a lot of those kids respond. The one who don't are telling us, I'm not ready to move on. I have an ongoing quarrel with society about this. I have a piece of advice I've given a hundred times. Maybe once it was followed. And the advice is, look, you've got a kid that's really ready to go to college from an academic standpoint. He or she is a good student. Their SATs, their scores are perfectly acceptable. They're telling you they're not ready to graduate. Let them not graduate. Let them walk across the stage and get an empty piece of paper. It won't kill them, and it's easy to recover. How do you recover? You take a six week English course at the local public school, and you start college in January. And really in most cases, unless we're seeing real emergent mental illness, or a serious drug problem that has just sort of crested. Other than that, they get their act together. The alternative, and I sent one of my kids to college on this. The alternative is they send the kid off to college anyhow. Two semesters, academic probation, six incompletes, two F's and two C's. And the school is saying, sorry, or they're saying ... I call it academic rehab. It doesn't have a hundred percent hit rate. It maybe is, in my patient population, maybe 60%. But it usually means take two courses at tri C, get a job. The job is an important part of the therapy, because it changes how you feel about yourself. The produce manager told me how much he appreciates the job I do. And they need me this weekend because it's a heavy shopping weekend. I'm beginning to feel a little more like I may have the stuff it takes to become an adult. And for that kid who then goes back to school the following year, there's a much higher success rate. And my point is a lot of that could be avoided if you let the kids flunk English, and then rehab over the summer. The other thing is, if you do the two semesters and out, your self-esteem and self-confidence takes a massive hit. All kids this age feel like phonies, but these kids feel it more. Whereas the embarrassment of telling your friends that you've got summer school, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday is just big whoop, as they used to say. It's not hard to hide. It's not hard to do. You kind of get tired of... I had one kid who I mentioned in the book who the parents couldn't get him to come out from under his bed. Well, you get tired of being under your bed, after a while. Susan Stone:                    Well, I want to challenge you on something. Dr. Mark McConville:     Oh, good. Susan Stone:                    I'm wondering whether the system today is setting kids up to fail because we have them in high school, in this highly structured environment. And now college has absolutely no boundaries until a kid violates the code of conduct. There are no visitation rules. It just seems like there just needs to be some better way to transition students. And I went to college, look, I'm 55. There was some sort of visitation in the dorm where everyone had to be back, and you couldn't have members of the opposite sex in your room- Kristina Supler:               We still had those rules and restrictions, and it was a big deal. It was really enforced. Susan Stone:                    Yeah. I didn't know that. Is this even fair? Dr. Mark McConville:     It's a great question. And I don't know that I have a good answer, because I was sort of a witness to the culture wars that led to all this openness. One of my dear friends in high school went to college. I was from Rochester, New York. He came to John Carroll, and after a semester he transferred. I asked him why he transferred. He said, "It was 10 o'clock one night. I was in my dorm room, lights out at 10 o'clock. I have the covers pulled over my head, and I'm reading my biology textbook with a flashlight." And I said to myself, "What's wrong with this picture?" The structures that were carried over from the 1950s were the other edge of the pendulum arc. And then through the cultural transition of the 60s and the 70s and feminism, you're looking at so many of these restrictions as just not useful and appropriate. And you are certainly right. It is at an extreme where, when you go off to college, you better have a fair amount of self-discipline and self-regulation. And the kids who do, are fine, the kids who don't, are not. Now, one thing, this may not be the most elegant solution. Colleges do differ in the amount of structure that they impose and the ground rules. I'm not sure that's the basis on which I'd want to choose a school. But if I had a kid who I thought was a pretty loose cannon, that might go high on my priority list. Susan Stone:                    What about a gap year? Because I'm a big- Dr. Mark McConville:     Oh, I love gap years. I love gap years. There's a book by a scholar named Jean Twenge, came out a year or two ago. She's what you call a demographer. She studies generations. And she makes a very plausible research case for today's generation being a new distinct generation. She calls it iGen. They were born after the introduction of the iPhone. And then she goes through all the ways that that and technology generally has changed her life. And one of the things she noted that was fascinating, that this generation of high school teenagers, less drug abuse, fewer pregnancies, fewer instances of diagnosed oppositional defiant disorder, like everything bad about adolescences is settling down. It's not unusual for a 16 to 17 year old today to say, "I'm going to stay in and watch a movie with my parents." Or, "Yeah, I'll play Scrabble, give me a board. I'll participate." And the initial interpretation, Twenge says, is that these kids are growing up faster. They're seeming more like adult-like in their late teens. But she said as the research piled up, they came to the exact opposite conclusion. They're actually growing up slower. So they're more comfortable with attachment and dependence, and the sort of mandatory distancing from your parents. You remember the book from 25 years ago, mom, would you please drive me and Sally to the ... Oh, mom, I hate you. Get out of my life. But first, please drive me and Sally to the shopping center. That kind of teens, they must rebel. You don't see it so necessarily today. And so that gap year is exactly ... I wish it was like Israel, where you have to do two years of civil service, because there's so much growing up that takes place. And you're not being measured every time. You're not on a timetable of assignments handed in and quizzes taken. I just think it does more to change how you feel about yourself. My kids go the gap years the year after college. They did a thing called Jesuit Volunteer Corps. And so they were doing social service work, but it was so useful in giving them a taste of being viable and useful in the adult world. Kristina Supler:               It sounds like what you're saying is that this transition into adulthood really requires adolescents and young adults to have a sense of responsibility, self-discipline, self-reliance. And so for parents, when you have an 18 year old who's really struggling to take on any sense of responsibility for oneself, what are parents supposed to do now? I mean, a hard line approach of, get out of my house, get a job. You got to pay your own bills and make your way. Do parents have to let their kids crash and burn fail? Or is there a softer approach to helping foster that sense of responsibility in your child? Dr. Mark McConville:     Yeah. I call that the Archie Bunker Approach. It used to be called tough love. I'm not a fan of tough love, partially dispositionally. It's not in my character. I mean, this is the argument my book makes, you can set limits and boundaries, and have expectations and consequences. And you can do that in a way that conveys tremendous love and support. Kristina Supler:               That's beautiful. Dr. Mark McConville:     I'll give you an example. This is just so garden variety. Not this summer, the summer before, I had a kid I'd seen off and on in high school. And he has to come back, because he was doing a lot of headbutting with his parents. And it turned out his mother had driven him to the session, so she was in the waiting room. He was 19 years old, a college student. Their argument du jour was, she's saying, "You have a dentist appointment on Friday. It conflicts with your work schedule, call the dentist's office and reschedule." And he just doesn't do it. "I'll do it. I'll do it. Get off my back." But he doesn't do it. And I said to him, "Would it be okay if I brought your mom in?" And I talked him into it. So she comes into the office, and I watched them go at it, just to kind of witness the argument. And finally I turned to him and I said, "I have a question. What do you think happens when you call a dentist office to cancel an appointment?" And he says, he looks down, he grumbles a little, he says, "They get pissed." Now, anyone who has ever called a dentist office, they are the most canceled healthcare providers. If you call them to reschedule, they want to send you roses. They are so delighted. So I said to the mom, "Would you be willing to call on speaker phone and cancel the appointment for him and reschedule?" She said, "Sure." And of course, you know what happened. "Oh, Mrs. Jones, thank you so much. Oh, no problem. We'll see him a week from Thursday." And I turned to the kid, and he looked down, first of all, which is what you do when you're a little embarrassed. And he goes, "Oh, just that. Oh!" That's a little microscopic bit of the psychology of the transitioner. There's this adult world. I sense that it has protocols, rules, structures, dos and don'ts, but it's like ... You may appreciate this. One of you said you're Jewish. Personally I call it my synagogue effect. When I go into a synagogue, I have this, and my background is Roman Catholic, where there are all kinds of rules. Susan Stone:                    We have rules. Dr. Mark McConville:     Okay. So I have this thing of like, I'm sure there are things I'm supposed to do and supposed not to do, but I don't know what they are. And so I get this strange, sort of youthful, portent of shame, like I'm going to do something stupid. Everybody's going to turn ... And I know, it's like, oh, there's my old neurosis. I guess I could have used another year of therapy. But that's where they live all the time. Like the kid who comes in and says, "My mom wants me to fill out this check for you. We owe you some money." And he takes out the checkbook and he stares at it. And after a minute I say, "Have you ever filled out a check before?" "No." And of course he so embarrassed. He's so embarrassed, as if we didn't all go through that exact same kind of experience. Kids don't often enough come and say, "All right, mom, I'll call, but what do I say?" They don't come for that. Like tell me the piece I don't know. Kristina Supler:               So let me ask you then, how do we instill in these transitioners like the idea of what you're getting at. Like, it's okay, just ask for help. Don't feel shame. Don't feel embarrassment. Just ask for help. Dr. Mark McConville:     Yeah. If they would listen to that kind of straightforward advice, I wouldn't have a job. Kristina Supler:               We probably wouldn't have jobs either. Susan Stone:                    You're right. We'd be out of business. Dr. Mark McConville:     Right. There are a couple of things you can do. I think for no rational reason, parents are often the least ... If I'm your kid and I take your advice, somehow the very active doing so makes me feel more childlike. And keep in mind, I'm only 20 years old, where childhood is nipping at my heels. I mean, I'm a kind of fraudulent adult at that stage. And so I am loathed to do anything that makes me feel like a kid. So you might find an individual that doesn't exert the same response for me. Like it might be the other parent. It might be an older sibling. It might be Uncle Joe, cool Uncle Joe. The Uncle Joe that everybody thinks is funny. And he flunked out of college before he went back, so he may be more approachable. It may be a therapist. It may be attorneys like you who are not mom and dad. So that's one approach. If you have a hit, if you find someone you do, if you don't, you don't. But the other thing is to be a sort of a buddy. Like the mom in my office who essentially showed him how to make that phone call. It would've not been good if she had just made the call without him around. But she did it in a framework that was kind of tutorial. Susan Stone:                    Well, within a therapeutic environment. Because I don't know that the student or child would've stayed, had she said house. Dr. Mark McConville:     You're right. Might not have. Might not have. Susan Stone:                    I mean, you were a great facilitator for that process. One of the questions that I had on your chapter about becoming relational. If you see that your student is hanging out with a group you don't like, or maybe dating someone that you don't want the student to date. I know that the kiss of death is to say, don't hang out with that crowd. That's like a invitation. In terms of you want students to become relational, and I love those chapters, how do you handle it when you know the peer group isn't the right peer group? Dr. Mark McConville:     Yeah. Well there's no single fail-safe argument. You're so right. If you say I don't like that group, even if the kid were to obey you and to distance from them, that just means he's being childlike. Like mommy doesn't approve. It's kind of a no-win approach. But you can do, there's a kind of questioning that therapists learn. I recently heard it referred to as motivational interviewing, but it's almost entirely made up of questions. So what do you like about this group? Tell me how do they compare to other friends you've had? How do they make you feel about yourself? What do they do that's interesting or funny? Where do you think they'll all be in five years? What do you get from them that you don't get from other people? That's the kind of questioning I do with pot smokers. Because if I tell them to stop smoking pot, I'm just fired. But I will say something like, "I don't know, like in health class, have they said anything about what they think pot does to your brain? I'm just curious." So I'm not asking a question about pot, I'm asking a question about health class. The kid will engage in that conversation because it's a little more oblique. So that's one thing a parent can try. It'll work with some kids, not with others. Another thing you can sometimes do, is you invite them over. You try to pull them into your circle, where you can assess them a little better. It's also very diagnostic. Like if he brings the girlfriend over, and she won't talk in your presence, and is nudging him to get down in the basement where the two of them can be alone. I mean, again, it just tells you like, yep, I trust my antenna. Again, there's no guarantee you're going to exert some positive influence. At least you'll have more of an idea. And often if they are, if I could use the word generously, bad kids, they're into bad stuff. They're not growing up. They're doing a fair amount of drugs. They're lost in their video game universe. They won't want to come over because you represent a frightening part of the adult world that they need to insulate themselves from in order to feel okay about themselves. Kristina Supler:               That's really interesting. I like what you refer to as the motivational questioning, because Susan and I, in a different way, we have to sort of implement the same strategy a lot when we're talking to our students. Because if we just come right out and dive into the big stuff, they feel judged or they shut down and are just afraid to be open. I think that's a great technique that you've provided for parents to try to use as well. Susan Stone:                    And for us. Sometimes we need to spend a little bit more time with each student to tease it out. Kristina and I often do intakes together. And a lot of people in our own professional development have suggested that, why don't you guys split up more? You could cover more clients, make more money. In fact, all throughout our career, people have tried to separate us. And we say, there's an advantage to both of us being with a young adult, because maybe they'll connect to one of us and not the other, or we can tag team and play good cop, bad cop. And sometimes I wonder if there's that psychological transition because there's two of us. We think it's a better model and we're not abandoning it. Dr. Mark McConville:     No, I could not agree more. We used to do that. When I started my career, we did a lot of family therapy, and we always used two therapists whenever the institution would allow us to. And for exact that, it gives you so much more latitude of role, how you play. You see somebody really needs an ally, so one of you can do that without compromising the larger agenda. Kristina Supler:               Yes, Susan, our decision is intentional and rooted again in psychological theory. Dr. Mark McConville:     Well, you are two smart cookies, I got to say that. Susan Stone:                    Oh, geez. Dr. Mark McConville:     I have three brothers. Two of them are attorneys. One has his own law firm up in Rochester, and he just by virtue of his personality, because he's actually an estate lawyer, but every one of his high school friends, and I have to say me and my three brothers, when our kids were in college and got in trouble, we called Uncle Mike. And Uncle Mike was just a genius at sussing these things out. Now, back in the day, it was not sexually related. It was open carry on a campus, or getting in a fist fight in a bar. He was just elegant of the way he would help people and connect with them. But I think what you guys are dealing with is much more complicated. Susan Stone:                    And scary. Really scary. Dr. Mark McConville:     I had a kid, he was actually a high school kid at a little sibs weekend, and he was urinating against the side of a building out of the way. Susan Stone:                    Got to go. Dr. Mark McConville:     Campus security guy saw him, and they had to lawyer up so that he didn't get charged with sexual, whatever, he had sex crime. It was just ridiculous. Susan Stone:                    Well, let's talk about lawyer ring up. Kristina, we have a good question about that. Kristina Supler:               Yeah. I mean, we sort of were often asked like, did hiring a lawyer for my child make my kid look guilty? Or am I enabling my child by spending my hard earned dollars to hire these brilliant women to defend my child? What Susan and I know is that in this day and age, it truly can be life altering to not have your child ever experience a disciplinary proceeding or some sort of criminal investigation without having a lawyer there to protect the student. And so what would you suggest or how could parents approach this idea of, okay, this is serious. You need a lawyer. I'm going to pay for the lawyer because you make minimum wage. But also not sending the message to your child like, well, if you just screw up, we have the resources. We'll hire a lawyer, and lawyers can make this go away. Dr. Mark McConville:     It's a great question. It's kind of like riddle of the stinks. The hypothetical or theoretical question is, is this scenario likely to prove in retrospect to be a learning experience? Or will it prove in retrospect to be traumatizing? Now, that's a theoretical question. And as you know, sometimes it's fuzzy and gray and you can't quite tell. In which case I personally would err on the side of intervening and supporting the kids. But I do occasionally see parents who lawyer up when really the kid needs to have his hand slapped, and it's not going to be a felony and he's going to have to do service or something. And he would get the idea that there are consequences. That choices have consequences. It's like a differential diagnosis where you kind of ... I often think of things like that. Like if I'm going to make a mistake, what's the one I want to make? And I would rather make the mistake that said, I maybe didn't need to intervene as much as I did. Okay. Chalk it up, learn from it. The kid I mentioned to you earlier, the 21 year old who went through this legal nightmare when he was 18, he's been traumatized by it. He's only now stepped back into the educational world. This is a very bright young guy. That's the mistake I don't want to make. Kristina Supler:               Yeah. Susan, when we were talking about the book, you were sharing with me how much the ATM model just really resonated with you. Susan Stone:                    Oh my gosh, you read my mind. We're mind-molding through computer screen, Kristina. So I got to tell you, that chapter struck such an internal chord, because I have actually had teenagers, my own say, "You're like a bank. Just stop being a bank." And how do you communicate, yes, I work for my money. I'm paying for this. I get a say without being a bully, because that's the reality. You take someone's money, my way or the highway, baby. Dr. Mark McConville:     Yeah. It's a really great question because there's two things involved. One is how do you as a parent change your thinking about money? And the other is how do you then get your kid to begin to think of you ... My kids are grown. They're closer to your age. If I pay for- Susan Stone:                    Well, Kristina's age. Kristina Supler:               My daughter's 10, so we're just starting to get into that period now where like fashion and other things and being cool and all of that. So like I see what lies ahead. Dr. Mark McConville:     Yeah. Right. If I pay for the girls summer camp, my daughter could not be more appreciative. She falls all over stuff. "Dad, you don't have to do this. Are you sure? Are you sure?" Yeah, I joke around with her. I say, "No, really, this is the way that I would love to be helpful." Now my daughter makes more money than I do. So it's not like she needs, it's more like I have a need to participate. I have no worries about it. But if she took it for granted, "Aren't you going to pay for camp this year?" I would have a whole different ... Like, whoa, I don't want that relationship. She's over that hump. But you guys are dealing with kids who are not, they're in the middle of it. And so as parents, first, you've got to undergo the change yourself. I remember when my daughter was a junior in high school, and her French class or something is going to Paris. And I am a fledgling psychologist building a practice, and I can't afford to send her to Paris, but I could not live with myself not sending her. It was the old, I'm working my own guilt agenda, my own self-esteem agenda. Am I a good enough father? That's all my stuff. I should have gone and talked to somebody about it. Until I got over that, which I did more when she was in college, until I worked that out, I wasn't able to have the conversation with her that said, so tell me why this expense is necessary? Tell me why it's important? I want to know what I'm investing in. Now that you're in college or grad school, I don't throw my money away. I don't help you out, out of obligation, but let me know what I'm getting into? Where is this going to lead? Tell me why this is a good idea? So I really am being this small business banker saying, you need to make a case for this. And you need to know that if I write this check or help you get this apartment or pay this tuition bill, that I am expecting a commitment from you to hold up your end of the bargain. So you're trying to get the kid to see it more as a transaction. You know that word's gotten a lot of bad press in the last four or five years, everything being transactional. What I'm concerned about is the relationship that the kid begins to see the parents as people. You're no longer to be taken for granted, but you are people who have stories and worries. And that kind of maturation, what the psychologist, Robert Kagan, calls it mutuality. Like I see you as a person just like me. And so your needs, your financial concerns are just as real. It's actually easier in families that have more limited means where the parents say, "Well, we just can't." In families where the parents are really people of means, and the kid will say, "Well, I know you could afford it," it's a little tricky argument, but I still vote for the argument, which is, "That's not the issue. The issue here isn't whether I can afford to put you up in an apartment in San Francisco. The issue is, I'm a grownup, and I like to know what I'm investing in. I don't throw my money around. So if you're going to be a full-time student, and you have some aspirations, if not goals, then sign me on. I want to help. This is a 50/50 arrangement." So it takes a lot of- Susan Stone:                    I'm sorry to interrupt, but isn't that how people horizontalize the relationship and make it more even? Dr. Mark McConville:     Exactly. Easier said than done. But if the parent doesn't get into that frame of mind, the kid most certainly will not get into that frame of mind. The record, I know I shouldn't keep records like this, but I have one parent I've talked to whose daughter who's very bright, well educated, and is 49 years old, and lives entirely on the family dole. And it's because, how do we change it after all this time? Which we agree to disagree, but I'm just saying it will perpetuate itself if the parent ... And you're lucky if you've got a kid who is a step ahead of you. "Mom, I want to earn that on my own." That kind of thing. God bless them. Your mother parenting you. Kristina Supler:               So I guess one final question that Susan and I both, we felt there was so much practical advice in your book, but also a lot of nuance that really invites parents to be thoughtful and find the right messaging. I guess my final question to you is the message of parents telling your children, you don't give up, and parents communicating that. Susan Stone:                    Never give up. Kristina Supler:               How do you message this idea of, okay, I'm scaling back financial support, but I'm not throwing you out, picking up on you. We have confidence that you are going to gain responsibility and succeed and all of that. Dr. Mark McConville:     If I could push a little further, you may have a child that you don't have that confidence. Susan Stone:                    Sure. So true. Dr. Mark McConville:     It's like finding the love language for any given kid. I'll answer it with a vignette. I had a dad, a guy I just love, whose son was in his early 30s, and was a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic, barely functional. Often in and out of small town jail cells, being held for a night or two. Sometimes staying in places where you can stay for the homeless downtown, sometimes under a bridge. And the dad had done, he'd done lawyers, he'd done psychiatric treatment, like a lot of paranoid schizophrenics. He would sometimes be cooperative, sometimes not. But his bottom line was, this is my son. And so what he would do every other week or so is he would buy a carton of cigarettes, and he would make some calls to see where he was. And he would go seek him out and sit down and give him a carton of cigarettes and just chat on a bench for an hour. And that was what he did, because that was something the kid could take in, that said to him, I still have a dad. Now, will that help or not help? I don't know, but it's the right thing to do. And it leaves open the possibility that I think any of us, if we feel connected to our parents, we feel loved by them. Even my parents have been gone 40 and 50 years, respectively, but I still feel loved by them. And it still matters. However you can for an individual child to get that message, and it'll be very straightforward with one kid, and it might be a carton of cigarettes with another. Susan Stone:                    There you go, making me cry again. Kristina Supler:               I think that's a beautiful message to end on. Dr. McConnell, thank you so much for joining us. This was really a pleasure, this conversation. Susan and I were so looking forward to reading your book, and this conversation has just been wonderful, and hopefully really beneficial to our listeners as well. Dr. Mark McConville:     Well, thank you so much. It's really been a joy to meet the two of you. I can't wait for my next college student in trouble to come into my office. I got just the answer for you. Kristina Supler:               Thanks to our listeners. We're so glad you're able to join us today for Real Talk with Susan and Kristina. And if you did enjoy this episode, please do subscribe to our show, so that you don't miss any episodes, where you'll find more content on a regular basis. You can also follow us on Instagram. Just search for the handle @stonesupler. And there's resources available online, studentdefense.kjk.com. Thank you so much for being a part of our Real Talk community, and we'll see you next time.

What does it mean to be ruined for life? Join America's summer intern Amelia Jarecke, as she follows three young women who have spent the last year serving in the Jesuit Volunteer Corps. They wrestle with lots of challenges, like: How do you live on a $100 month? Can you live simply and gluten-free without breaking the bank? How do you reconcile being Catholic and bisexual? What happens when your prayer life dries up? And what does it mean to take the Pedro Arrupe prayer seriously- and let your love for the world define everything? Related links: Jesuit Volunteers Corps

Our guest is Fr. Steve Katsouros, SJ. After graduating from the University of Maryland in College Park, he was a member of the Jesuit Volunteer Corps. He entered the Society of Jesus in 1987 and was ordained in 1998. He is the founder and president/CEO of the Come To Believe Network, as well as the founding dean and former executive director of Arrupe College at Loyola University Chicago. Prior to arriving in Chicago, Fr. Katsouros served as the director of the Institute for Catholic Educational Leadership and associate dean of the School of Education at the University of San Francisco. Fr. Katsouros was also president of Loyola, a Jesuit high school in New York City. He has a doctorate, from Columbia University Teachers College, in organizational leadership. Show Notes: Come To Believe Network: https://www.ctbnetwork.org/ Arrupe College: https://www.luc.edu/arrupe/

About Dr. Jeff Mincher Jeff Mincher, MD, is a board-certified family medicine physician at AdventHealth Medical Group Primary Care at Shawnee Mission. With experience in family medicine, obstetrics and integrative medicine, Dr. Mincher provides care for patients with a wide range of health needs, from chronic disease management to women’s care to routine preventive or acute care. A native of Kansas City, Mo., Dr. Mincher earned dual bachelor’s degrees at the University of Kansas before undertaking a two-year assignment with Jesuit Volunteer Corps at a health clinic in Wisconsin. Fueled by a newfound respect for the value of preventive health care, he returned to KU to attend the School of Medicine. After earning his medical degree, he went on to complete his family medicine residency, including service as chief resident, at Research Medical Center in Kansas City and a fellowship in primary care leadership at the University of Illinois at Chicago. Dr. Mincher joined AdventHealth Medical Group in 2020 after working as a family physician in Lawrence, Kan. About Dr. Roger Hall Author of Staying Happy, Being Productive: The Big 10 Things Successful , Dr. Roger Hallhelps people learn to monitor and manage their thinking. For over 25 years, he has consulted with leaders from all types of companies, judges in federal courts, university faculty, social workers, teachers, nurses, construction workers, landscapers, and box-makers. He helps his clients become better versions of themselves so they can improve their own lives and the lives of those they serve. Join Dr. Michelle and Dr. Jeff as they discuss:   What he is grateful for the most from COVID-19. The gifts and experiences he has been given this past year. Why men have struggled more than women with COVID-19. The importance of seeking healthcare check-ups for preventative care with a doctor you can rely on. What types of test men should do during their health check up. The importance of keeping your health under control to avoid cardiovascular disease. His favorite tips for living a healthy life especially focused on things that you enjoy. Join Dr. Michelle and Dr. Roger Hall as they talk about: How he helps people monitor and manage their thinking. Unpacking his book, Staying Happy, Being Productive: The Big 10 Things Successful. Some of his favorite takeaways from his book which include getting more sleep. What are some of the tools and assignments he gives people to help manage their thoughts. The benefits of checking in with your thoughts every hour to help you monitor them and notice common themes. How you can break the cycle in negative thought loops and emotions. What steps you can do to replace false, negative thoughts with accurate, true counter thoughts. The importance of loving relationships for wellbeing. How the lack of human interaction and connection has impacted our mental health in 2020 and now in 2021. What advice he would give to leaders who are struggling to help their employees with motivation and staying focused. What happiness actually looks like and it doesn’t mean having money. How to re-energize your brain by being physically active and be a bit more conscious about your food choices.

A tenured attorney, Kevin Snyder earned his LL.M (Masters of Law) from the California Western School of Law; his JD (Juris Doctorate) from the University of Richmond School of Law, graduating with honors; and his B.A. (Bachelor of Arts) from Boston College, also graduating with honors (go Eagles!). Mr. Snyder is an active member of Wealth Counsel and Elder Counsel as well as the Trust & Estates and Elder Law sections of the Orange County Bar Association. He has also been published in the OC Lawyer magazine multiple times. Prior to opening Snyder Law, PC, Mr. Snyder worked in a variety of legal disciplines. One of which was as a public defender in Orange County. He has defended countless adults, juveniles, and veterans at all stages of criminal court proceedings. He also gained a unique experience working closely with veterans in the Veteran's Treatment Court. This experience prepared Kevin well for his Veteran Defense practice and the personalized care, attention, and diligence necessary in his role as a trusted estate advisor. Prior to attending law school, Kevin spent a year in the Jesuit Volunteer Corps where he was “ruined for life” and left with a lasting impression of how important it is to be a “man for others.” Kevin currently serves on the Board of Trustees for St. Joseph Hospital in Orange, the Holy Family Cathedral Finance Committee, and provides pro bono legal services through the Veterans Legal Institute. In This Particular Episode You Will Learn: Kevin's background and experience Overview of Veteran Courts Types of situations that veterans find themselves in Veterans reactions to their involvement in veteran courts Peer Support in Veteran Courts Developing an understanding of veteran culture Harnessing veteran motivation Female veterans in the criminal justice system Misdemeanor diversion courts --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/changeyourpov/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/changeyourpov/support

**Trigger warning: we talk about sexual violence in this episode; listen with caution.** Emily Win is a writer and podcaster who is navigating so many intersections. She’s a queer person, a person of faith, and a person of color. And now she’s a Californian too! I came to know about her through the Jesuit Volunteer Corps. It’s a volunteer program in the United States and a few other countries where folks learn how to live lives devoted to community, simple living, spirituality, and social justice. Anyway, she recently gave a presentation for JV alumni entitled "What do the Mass and queer poetry have to do with one another?" And I was like - I need to get this person on the podcast. She has incredible insights on the transformation of a primarily male image of God to that of a female image of God. You’ll love hearing about how coming out helped her feel closer to God, what she learned during her Jesuit Volunteer year, and see if you resonate with what she has observed about California spirituality. Listen in. Find more Emily at www.emilyrosewin.com Find detailed show notes at www.molleendupreedominguez.com

**Trigger warning: we talk about sexual violence in this episode; listen with caution.** Emily Win is a writer and podcaster who is navigating so many intersections. She’s a queer person, a person of faith, and a person of color. And now she’s a Californian too! I came to know about her through the Jesuit Volunteer Corps. It’s a volunteer program in the United States and a few other countries where folks learn how to live lives devoted to community, simple living, spirituality, and social justice. Anyway, she recently gave a presentation for JV alumni entitled "What do the Mass and queer poetry have to do with one another?" And I was like - I need to get this person on the podcast. She has incredible insights on the transformation of a primarily male image of God to that of a female image of God. You’ll love hearing about how coming out helped her feel closer to God, what she learned during her Jesuit Volunteer year, and see if you resonate with what she has observed about California spirituality. Listen in. Find more Emily at www.emilyrosewin.com Find detailed show notes at www.molleendupreedominguez.com

Jocelyn Sideco, from the Jesuit Volunteer Corps and Catholic Volunteer Network, reflects on the Christmas Day Gospel readings.

Jocelyn Sideco, from the Jesuit Volunteer Corps and Catholic Volunteer Network, reflects on the Christmas Day Gospel readings.

Monica Thom Konschnik, from the Jesuit Volunteer Corps and Catholic Apostolate Center, reflects on the third week of Advent Gospel readings.

Monica Thom Konschnik, from the Jesuit Volunteer Corps and Catholic Apostolate Center, reflects on the third week of Advent Gospel readings.

In this episode, Holy Cross professor Stephanie Yuhl reconnects with friend and former student Meg Griffiths '04.  They reminisce about Meg's days on campus, and reflect upon the many ways that the Holy Cross Mission and its pursuit of social justice is evident throughout Meg's life and career. Interview originally recorded on July 31, 2020.  Due to the ongoing effects of the pandemic, all interviews in season 2 are recorded remotely. --- Meg: I think people who come to the dialogue table… they come because they’re in touch with something that means a lot to them, and they care enough to show up and listen and try to muddle through with people who they know occupy different positions.  And to me, that’s a sign of hope in and of itself: that people are willing to come to the table. And that they have a shared commitment to making some kind of change, making their community better, making space for more voices and rehumanizing the “other.” Maura: Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I’m your host, Maura Sweeney ‘07, Director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross.  I’m delighted to welcome you to today’s show. Maura: In this episode we hear from Meg Griffiths from the class of 2004.  Meg can be described as an educator, space maker, practitioner of dialogue, crafter of questions, and human can opener.  Ever since graduating from Holy Cross, Meg has pursued mission-focused work. After starting her career with the Jesuit Volunteers Corps in New Orleans, her journey has evolved to include work in the nonprofit sector and higher education. Today, she works for Essential Partners, an organization who partners with communities and organizations around the globe, equipping them to navigate the values, beliefs and identities that are essential to them.  Her work showcases the importance of dialogue and connection in order to build trust and support mutual understanding among diverse groups of people.  Stephanie Yuhl, Professor of History, Gender, Sexuality, & Women's Studies, and Peace and Conflict Studies, reconnects with Meg to speak about her life and career.  Their conversation is filled with mutual admiration and respect, stemming from Meg’s time as a student at Holy Cross.  The importance of living the Holy Cross Mission is interwoven throughout the conversation. Despite coming to Holy Cross not knowing what a Jesuit was, Meg has lived a life devoted to the Jesuit values of social justice ever since. Stephanie: Hi, Megan, it's Stephanie. Meg: Hi, Stephanie. It's Meg. Stephanie: How are you doing Meg? I'm so excited that we get this chance to spend some time together and to talk about interesting things related to you and Holy Cross. I have to say, whenever I think of students that to me, have really lived out the mission, you see the T-shirts at Holy Cross that say Live the Mission, and I think that certain people actually really do that and you're always at the top of the list of that, so thanks for sharing your time with us today. Meg: Thank you, Stephanie. When I think about my Holy Cross experience, you are one of the people that regularly comes to mind. So, this is a pure joy to have some Zoom time with you these days in this weird, strange time we're in. Stephanie: It is and hopefully the listeners won't be bored with our mutual admiration society that we're having. Let's get started and let's talk about Holy Cross and you and then, we'll move into your life and career. Tell me why did you choose Holy Cross? What was it about the school that attracted you and how did you move through Holy Cross during your time there? Meg: Yeah. So, I was looking at colleges in the late '90s but before I actually stumbled into Holy Cross, this glossy, beautiful materials that came my way in the old school snail mail, my sister was looking at colleges and she's a couple years older than me. We are very different people in all kinds of ways. My parents had taken my sister to do a New England college tour and Julie came home, very uninterested in Holy Cross and my mom said to me, "Megan, I found the perfect college for you, because your sister is not interested." So, it was sort of planted in the back of my head, before I actively started looking at colleges and I just loved it when I stepped on campus. Meg: I think a lot of Holy Cross students say this, they have this experience of sort of feeling something when they come to campus. My mom said she could read it all over my face, but it really sort of met a lot of what I was looking for in a school at the time, which is a small liberal arts Catholic school. I didn't know what a Jesuit was yet but I was Catholic educated my whole life and that felt familiar in a good way and in a challenging way. Yeah, I landed here in 2000 as a wee freshman, and took me a little while to find my sort of academic home and you, Stephanie, were a big part of that. I meandered through all of my distribution requirements and learned that I wasn't a disciplinary thinker but a multi-disciplinary thinker. Meg: Got a chance to design my own American Studies major before that was a thing on campus, and you Stephanie, were wise enough really, to say yes to being my advisor for that- Stephanie: It was wise because then we got to be friends, and you did your senior thesis on Child's Play, which I think is really interesting and I think it reveals a lot about you and the way that your brain works. Can you talk about that a little bit, explain what that thesis was about, if you can recall? Meg: Yes, I can recall. I can recall sitting in the library at a giant table every Friday writing it, my senior year. I was really interested in gender. I was also a women's studies concentrator before it was women and gender studies and then, material culture, and so, I studied how doll play and child rearing manuals sort of told a story about gender and the role of women in early America and how girls were socialized to grow up to be mothers and caretakers, through the use of dolls and doll play. So, it's really interesting, kind of nerdy but lovely research. It was sort of the bringing together of all of the disciplines of my American Studies major and my interest in sort of gender, and culture. Stephanie: Yeah, and also, I think creativity, right? The idea of looking at something and you see something extensible in that, a doll but then, being able to read and interpret more deeply into it and try to think about what are the influences and impacts that this artifact could have? I think that that is in a lot of ways really connected to some of the work that you do about seeing things one way and then trying to shift one's angle of vision to see it another way to unpack its power. So, it might look like doll play, but I think it was really indicative of future trajectories, perhaps. Meg: I love that. Stephanie: So you mentioned that you didn't even know what a Jesuit was and then, your biography really kind of spent a lot of time in that Jesuit social justice space. So, can you talk a little bit about ... and that's what we would stay around mission, right, around how you're formation at Holy Cross, what are the sort of the things that you think are part of your Jesuit education at Holy Cross, and then we can talk about how you then put those into action after graduation? Meg: Yeah, I love that you brought up the Live the Mission T-shirts, because I was an orientation leader who wore that T-shirt many summer and I'm a little bit of a mission statement nerd, because I just love the way that institutions and communities and even people can take an opportunity to name explicitly what they're about and what they aspire to be. So, I think they're both aspirational and descriptive. The Holy Cross mission, I stepped into it in a variety of ways. I mean, my experience as a student is that you can't go to Holy Cross and not be steeped in mission, but I understand other people have different experiences of that. Meg: For me, I saw it everywhere I looked, and I sought it out also. So, I got involved in the chaplains office, pretty early on in retreats, and in singing in liturgical choir, and sort of embracing the social justice mission of Jesuit education and formation through Pax Christi, and going to the School of the Americas protest and participating in the Mexico Immersion Program and SPUD. Really, seeing the ways that a faith doing justice was a huge part of the college's larger mission and I also just ... I think, part of what I loved about specifically, the Holy Cross mission statement was that it was full of questions and when we talk about what I do now, this might become even more clear to people but I'm sort of all about questions. Meg: I love the ways in which a question can invite us into, again, aspiration and also possibility, and deep personal reflection at an institutional level, sort of organizational reflection on again, who we want to be and how we want to be in the world. The Holy Cross mission statement asks these super powerful questions like what is the moral character of teaching and learning and what are our obligations to one another? What's our special responsibility to the world's poor and powerless? How do we find meaning in life and history? Meg: These are what I have always called the big important questions and I love the way that my academic experience sort of mirrored that more spiritual formation in wading into those big questions and finding the nuance and complexity that comes through sustained engagement with those kinds of questions. There's no simple answers to be found here and I love that. Even though I'm someone who really likes clarity and planning and a clear path, there's a big part of me that also knows, we need to wrestle with the complexity and the gray areas of what it means to be human. So, those are the parts of the mission statement and the way that the mission was lived in my experience that really captivated my imagination. Stephanie: That's awesome and that notion of patience and ambiguity, which is also in the mission is a wonderful thing and it's hard for type A organizers, like yourself and myself, sometimes to sit in that space but I think that that's really probably where we're most human, right? Particularly today in our really Balkanized political discourse, it's important to try to find these spaces of more nuanced. So, let's talk about that a little bit, so you come to the college, you find your way, you figure, you learn what a Jesuit might be, you live the mission, wear a T-shirt and then you graduate, right? With this thesis in Child's Play where everyone is banging on your door to hire you to do something with Child's Play because they don't know that Child's Play is not a play, it's very serious. Meg: I think that was the subtitle of my thesis. Stephanie: It was. This is no joke. I think it's serious- Meg: Something about seriousness of ... Yeah, anyways, yes. Stephanie: Exactly. So, tell me a little bit about ... I know right after college, you joined the Jesuit Volunteer Corps, right? Meg: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Stephanie: And went to New Orleans. Meg: Yeah. Stephanie: Tell me a little bit about that decision and how this question driven impulse that you have, played out in that space. The kind of work you did there, and how maybe your sense of your own personal mission started to shift a little bit in that time. Meg: Yeah, so I served in New Orleans in 2004 to 2005. I served at a domestic violence shelter. We had a transitional shelter and an emergency shelter. My work there involved being a part of the life of the shelter, of the residential life of our clients and guests. I dropped into a culture that could not have been more different than my suburban New Jersey Catholic upbringing, although New Orleans is very Catholic, but sort of my sheltered, very white suburban, middle class upbringing. For me, that was a transformative year in terms of coming to see the lived realities of some of the things that I had studied at Holy Cross. So, I took great courses, like social ethics with Professor Mary Hobgood, and liberation theology with Jim Nickoloff. Meg: I had studied ... and also in my local volunteering over the four years that I was in Worcester, obviously, coming face to face with the realities of injustice and poverty and violence, and sort of had this sort of charity orientation. Definitely, Holy Cross moved me into a conceptualization of justice as a really important aim, more so than charity. They go together but really, that more of my activism sort of bloomed as a Holy Cross student. It was entirely different to move to a city I've never lived in before, worked in a shelter, live in intentional community with six other humans, doing all kinds of work in the city, and tried to live in some shape of solidarity, which is not really possible in some ways, because I was bringing all my privilege and my social network of support with me. Meg: I remember feeling like I saw a different side of the world for the first time, that I really was face to face with three dimensional humans, who were experiencing these things that were really sort of more theoretical in my head at the time, oppression and discrimination, and violence, and classism, and sexism, and heterosexism and all the isms. Yet, New Orleans is this amazing, cultural, rich, historic place that is so much an example of finding joy and having resilience in the face of so many difficulties. Of course, I left New Orleans, three weeks before Hurricane Katrina hit the Gulf Coast, and never was that clear, that sense of resilience and hope and richness of community than when I returned to New Orleans, about 10 months after Katrina hit to move back. Stephanie: Let's talk a little bit about that, because that was a really interesting ... an interesting move for you, I think. They joke that JVC graduates are ruined for life, right? That sort of tagline and I think a lot of our students would find it interesting and helpful, frankly, who also choose this path of service as a postgraduate moment. After that, sometimes they feel a little stuck about what next, right? Because you've just had this really intense experience, an experience in which hopefully, you've made some kind of impact but really, mostly it has an impact on the server, as we know, around that quest around justice and charity models, right? Stephanie: You opted to come back to New Orleans, right, to go back to New Orleans and the listeners might not know this, but Megan, Meg Griffiths was a member of the CIA and I think you should explain that, because I think it will surprise people that you are a CIA member. Do you want to explain that Megan and what called you back to New Orleans? Meg: Yeah. Yeah. So, I had moved up to Milwaukee. I was serving at Marquette University, an internship in their university ministry office, so that's where I went when I left and that's where I was when Katrina hit. I didn't have a television in my apartment. I was living in a residence hall. I just come off of a year of simple living. I do not bring a lot with me to Milwaukee. As the news of Katrina was sort of coming up to Milwaukee, I was really not as in tune with what was happening as I would have been if I had a television and sort of made a point to be following the news. Simpler times back then. I quickly started checking in with some people who I knew who were in New Orleans, and it became clear that it was being taken increasingly seriously, as Katrina was approaching. Meg: So, I think that the fact that I had been a resident of that city three weeks before Katrina hit, I mean, I just ... it felt like home still, as much as a place you've lived for 11 months, can feel like home but- Stephanie: Very intense 11 months, so that makes it more home, right? Meg: Yes, and I just ... the only way I could explain it is I felt like I was having the experience that my heart was still in New Orleans and was breaking for this beloved city and its beautiful humans. So, I made my way down several times that year when I was serving at Marquette. I brought students, I went down and met up with other JVs and at the end of my internship, I didn't really have a plan as to what was next. My supervisor at the time, at Marquette who is Jocelyn, she was the liturgist there, she decided she was taking a leave of absence and going to move to post Katrina New Orleans because she felt so called to do so. Meg: I remember so clearly that she asked me straight out, "If I do this, will you come with me?" Without even thinking, I said yes. That is a moment where I felt so deeply certain about the word yes, that I didn't even have time to think before it came out of my mouth. Then, I was like, "Oh, no, I just said, Yes. I think I have to do this." Stephanie: Wait a minute the overthinker didn't overthink this. She just responded. That's great. Meg: Yeah. Stephanie: That's a pure yes. Meg: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it felt like a call. I mean, it was a direct invitation- Stephanie: It was an invitation, literally. Yeah. Meg: So I said yes, not knowing what it meant or how we would pay for anything or what we would do. Another person joined us, a recent alum of Marquette, my dear friend, Stacy now. So, the three of us moved to New Orleans, rented a house started calling ourselves contemplatives in action, i.e. CIA. Stephanie: I love it. Meg: So, we built this fledgling nonprofit to help people ... to help receive short term volunteers into the city. So, our Jesuit high schools and colleges and parishes, and so many others but in particular, we had a connection to this larger Jesuit family, and people wanted to come to New Orleans and help rebuild and stand with the people of New Orleans and accompany people in their moment of pain, and hear their stories and bear witness. So, we created an opportunity that made it easier for people to find their way to do that work by helping place volunteers and connect them with local nonprofits and local community leaders and with the spiritual and religious and cultural history of the city of New Orleans. Meg: It was really hard work. I mean, physically hard labor but also emotionally hard work. I remember, Stacy, my colleague and co-conspirator in the CIA, say, "I came to New Orleans, to lighten other people's burdens and what I didn't realize was that I would wind up carrying them, with them." That's how we help lighten other people's burdens. Stephanie: Right, accompany them. Meg: Yeah, and that weight of living in what was, for many years after I was there, still a city in distress and in disarray, is emotionally difficult to show up every day and be present to that and to be able to leave was a huge privilege. That wasn't my life. It wasn't my community. It wasn't my home. It wasn't my school, that was destroyed and yet it felt like a part of me. I also knew that there was a limit to how much capacity I had to continue to show up. So, I made a commitment of a year of doing that work in community and then, stepped out of that work and into the next thing. Stephanie: Right, and that's, I think, really ... I just want to thank you for sharing that. I think it's really important for people to know that, you can step up and step in and accompany and do your very best and sometimes it feels like failure to step away, but stepping away is also stepping towards something else. It's not always stepping away from. This notion of sharing the suffering and sharing the stress, and sharing the work is something that very few single people can do, right? It's something that many people need to step in and come in and go. So, I think that idea that you were there, you went away and you came back, I mean, that's that kind of push, pull relationship. Stephanie: I think it's important for people, particularly younger folks who might be listening, to recognize that one, you make a commitment to something and you follow through on your commitment and then, it's okay to also make a different commitment. That's also part of the development and you're not abandoning people, you're not quitting. Meg: I mean, for me, it was about how can I find a different way to support this work. So, I think, also like, especially right now, in our world, when there's so much work needed, and so many people joining in the long struggle for racial justice, for the first time, finding your place in the work can be really hard and I think we sometimes ... I'll speak for myself, I think I sometimes think that there's only one way to show up, to be part of the work and the truth is, there are many ways and we are as different, in terms of our gifts and our assets, and our limitations, as you can get in humans. So, noticing what you can do, what serves the work, what sustains you and the work. Meg: Then, being okay with pivoting, when you realize that that's no longer the role that you can play or want to play or is helpful to play. So for me, I moved to Providence, which is where I live now after New Orleans and I took a job in higher ed setting and one of the first things I did was asked if I could start a program to bring students to New Orleans. So, I continued my relationship and my work and in some ways, built a much more sustainable way. My advocacy continues like super- Stephanie: Particularly you singularly doing the work. Meg: Yeah. Stephanie: Something that amplifies and continues. Yeah, the sustainability question. Meg: Yeah. So, I mean, not right now because nobody's going anywhere but up until last January, students were still going on the NOLA immersion trip from my previous institution. I built that program in 2009. It ran for 10 years, and it will come back I hope, when travel is a thing again, because the work in New Orleans also continues. The immediate response and rebuilding was ongoing for many, many years and yet, there's still ongoing work that we can do. Stephanie: Yeah, and I think that's really interesting, Meg to hear you talk about how you can best serve because sometimes we do have these default notions that it needs to look a certain way. I would connect this with the spiritual exercises, right? That idea of you have to find your way, right? Discern your way, not the way that the culture might tell you is the way or what does service look like, what does a simple life have to look like? We bring a lot of baggage to that and the hard work of reflecting on what is my path and being okay with that even if it looks a little counter-cultural, if it looks like someone's leading something or pivoting. Stephanie: I think that has a lot to do with letting go of ego. Did you think that had to do at all with ego, the idea of who you thought you were in that moment and then, recognizing there's another way of using your skills and gifts toward a larger end? Meg: Yeah, I don't know that I would put that language around it at the time but certainly looking back ... I mean, I did have a lot of moments of asking myself, like what am I here for? Am I here for the right reasons? Am I the right person to be doing this work? I mean, the answer wound up always being yes or enough of a not no, to stay. I think there are moments where in my own development and sort of self-actualization we might say in the fancy words, where I would look at people that I admired and try to be more like them. I think it was actually another of my Holy Cross mentors, Kristine Goodwin, who at one point, used this frame of sort of holy envy. Meg: That when we see people who live out values that we share in a particular way, we can have some jealousy around it almost, that like, we want to be as good, quote, unquote, as they are. I think there have been a lot of people in my life that have served as beacons or sort of examples. The challenge is to always stay rooted and figuring out how I can live out my own values in my own way. One of the things that I care really deeply about and how I show up in the world, is with a sense of integrity. For me, that means living in alignment with my values and who I am and who I've been called to be. So that there's an integrated self in that way of the word integrity, that what I say I'm about, I'm about or at least I'm trying real hard to be about it. Meg: The same with the mission statements being both descriptive and aspirational. I think my values are things that I hold dear, and I want to live out and I also have to aspire to because I won't do it perfectly, and I won't always get it right. Stephanie: Well, of course and I love that phrase holy envy, I have to say the reason I went to graduate school was because of holy envy. One of my professors at Georgetown, I wanted his life. I thought it was just remarkable what he was able to do and the impact he had on me as a young person. We're very, very different. Went to really different fields and different personalities. We're still friends and that's right, you find your ... you might have the catalyst, the inspiration. Then, as you emerge and you grow, you find your way, hopefully in it. That back and forth between achieved ... hitting the mark on values and aspiring to living that, I think that's really interesting. Stephanie: Tell me then about how in your life, if you can ... and you have a really rich professional biography, educational biography, activist biography, and we don't have time to go into all of them. So, I want to give you the opportunity to highlight if you can, either a moment or a choice or a career path, that for you, really puts this values in action, where that integrated self has found firm ground, and what kind of ... and how you manifest that in your work. Meg: I'll leave it to you, Stephanie, to ask the big old questions. Stephanie: Sorry, but you got to give me a good one example. I'm just wondering, is it your current work now? Is it navigating higher ed? Is it your work, which I'd love to talk about at one point with the LGBTQ alumni network at Holy Cross, which to me has been so important, so we can get to that unless you want to talk about it now. So, it's really up to you. I mean, I think ... like I said, the beginning of our conversation, you are a person, remarkably. I mean, I admire you so much, Meg. When you talk about being catalyzed by people, and you put me in that list, I need to share with you that one of the great things about teaching at Holy Cross is being catalyzed by your students. I mean, I put you in my list. It's true, though. It is true though and you know that and I would throw your wife Heather in there as well. Stephanie: I mean, you the two of you really live what ... from the outside and someone on the inside feels very real. A real life where you don't run away from the hard stuff and you try to stay true to your moral compass. We need more of that in the world, frankly and so I'm glad you're in it. So, having said that, what's a way that you think that that's succeeded for you? Obviously, never 100% but what do you think what's been a moment where you've been able to make those choices and live the way you seek to live? Meg: Well, thank you for that kind offering. When I think about how I've had to navigate and negotiate what it means to live out my values, I mean, I think what has been the ... one of the pivotal sort of negotiations has been around identity. So, you mentioned my beloved wife, Heather. She's a Holy Cross alum as well. Stephanie: And a former student. Meg: Yes. Although Stephanie can take no credit for the matchmaking directly but- Stephanie: Much to my chagrin. I had each of you in class and yet you didn't even know each other as undergrads, which just breaks my heart. See, fate happens, right? Meg: That's right. Yeah, so I mean, I ... So when I was an undergrad, I didn't believe myself to be anything other than straight. When I started to come to know myself, as at first, not straight, and then later claiming various identities over time, but then, partial to queer, because of its sort of umbrellaness of many things. When I was an undergrad, I imagined myself working in Catholic higher ed for the rest of my life, ideally, Jesuit higher ed. I wanted to ... I'm obsessed with mission and mission statements. I wanted to be the person on a Jesuit campus who helped the community live out their mission, of course. Stephanie: You pointed at it, you'd be fantastic. Meg: I was born and raised Catholic. In many ways, my Catholic faith was nourished in college, which is often, I think, not the case for what happens in terms of spiritual development of many young people but Holy Cross was a place that nourished my spirituality, and gave me an intellectual and theological frame for holding complexity, as I was sort of mentioning earlier. So, I took classes like sexual justice and feminist theology and liberation theology, that helped me make sense of a world in which multiple things can be true at the same time, both in the world and inside of a human. So, when I came to know myself as a queer Catholic, that was a lot to take in. Meg: Also, I felt really prepared in some ways to hold those identities at the same time. There is internal tension there, that is never going to be resolved and it's taught me a lot about embracing paradox or seeming paradox. I think that that process of negotiating my identity and trying to live out my values as a faithful person, and my identity as someone who falls outside of the church's teachings about what is right, quote, unquote, I think is what was part of the path of getting me into the work that I do now, which is the work of helping people hold tensions and manage internal conflict, and sit across from someone else who holds a drastically different opinion, idea, ideology, set of identities, and see them as human still, not in spite of but because of what they bring in terms of their humanity. Stephanie: We're listening to them and taking seriously in. Meg: Yeah, absolutely. Stephanie: This seems to me a good segue to talk about the kind of ... what it is that you do? Sometimes people talk about the language of bringing people to the table and having people, and it is sounds wonderful, but it's hard to understand what that actually looks like and I think about my own struggle right now, given our current climate and as an American historian, and the ways in which history is being bandied about and weaponized, frankly, and I feel like I know certain things. I know certain things to be true and you're telling me correctly, that multiple things can be true at the same time. Talking about how does a community respond to what's going on right now and to me, let's just use the example of Black Lives Matter, to me, this seems like it's not an ambiguous at all, right? Stephanie: You're either stand with Martin Luther King Jr. or you stand with Bull Connor and his dogs and hoses. To me, it feels like that kind of choice. How in the work you do, which I think is so important, because I feel myself getting more and more entrenched and frustrated, how would you bring someone like that to the table with someone who had a different feeling? What are some of the things ... this is very much mission. I mean, how do you do that and I want to ask you another question, what do you call yourself? I mean, I know your title is associate, but are you a teacher? Are you a mentor? Are you a space maker? What do you go? So, those would be ... I want to know more about how this actually works, largely, because I feel like this is a free consultation. Stephanie: I don't need to pay you for your expertise because I feel like I need this. I need this in family conversations, Twitter ... my goodness, the text threads, I need Meg Griffiths and your skillset. So, how do you do that work and what do you call yourself? Meg: Well, first of all, we all need a little Meg Griffiths. I mean- Stephanie: True and we need Meg Griffin's baked goods. The whole other story of your community making baking space but we do need a lot of Meg Griffiths, not just a little. So, how do you do that when we're in this moment, it's hard enough anyways, particularly, this reactive moment we're in right now. Meg: Well, let me start with, who I work with and for and what we do, and then, I'd love to talk about what I call myself and how we're responding to this moment. So, I work with an organization called Essential Partners. We were founded over 30 years ago by family therapists in Cambridge, Massachusetts. These were a group of mostly women who looked at the public debates around, say, abortion that were happening in the 90s and could clearly see patterns of dysfunction in these quote, unquote, conversations on public television between the pro life and pro choice sides of the issue. They said to themselves, "You know, these are patterns we see in family therapy sessions. We are familiar with this dysfunction and what these systems produce. These communication systems. These power dynamics, et cetera." Meg: So, they went to work and started playing around with an approach to dialogue that would begin to bring their tools to the public conversation. So we were founded as Public Conversations Project, about 30 years ago. We had a name change about five years ago to Essential Partners. So, what we've done over the last 30 years is fine tune, adapt, iterate, and evolve an approach to conversation around polarizing issues. So, what we do is we come into communities, organizations, schools, faith communities, nonprofits, anyone who wants us, and they usually call because they're stuck. They're stuck or they've gotten bad news because they got a climate study back that said, things aren't looking so hot or because they've had some sort of acute conflict come up in their community. Meg: They say, we need help. We don't know what to do. We don't know how to get out of these stuck patterns that were in. Stephanie: Even where to start, right? That kind of news is just so shattering if it's not your experience of the institution, but you know that some of your colleagues it is their experience. Meg: Right, right. Stephanie: Even that moment of recognition is huge. Meg: Yeah, that cognitive dissonance of, well, I love this place and this place feels like home and community and family to me, what are you telling the other people don't feel that way? Yeah, and other people are like, "Thank you for putting the data in front of people, because we've been telling you this for a really long time or we haven't been able to say it out loud because of fear of consequences, of naming our experience. So, I mean, we do a lot of different things but we usually start by listening and trying to get a sense of what the real ... what hasn't worked in the past. What people's hopes and concerns are. If they can imagine a preferred future, what would it look like for them and their community? Meg: Then, we do all kinds of things. So, yes, my title is associate. I talk about my work as being a practitioner of dialogue and of facilitation. I am a trainer, I am an educator, I am in accompanier. This work feels like the Venn diagram of everything I've done. It feels like the middle of ministry, which I have a history in working in ministry, education, I've done teaching of various kinds, and still work for justice because I think this is about helping everyone in the community feel heard, valued, understood and understand that they have dignity, and that their community sees them as having the same dignity as everyone else. Meg: So, we work with people to build skills, to try on new ways of speaking and listening and structuring conversation. We build people's capacity to lead and participate in dialogue and we also work with faculty to help them bring dialogue in their classrooms. We bring coaching and consulting support to organizations and leaders. We just try to ... I mean, when it comes down to it, what I think this work is about is helping people see what's possible, because when we're stuck and all we have are bad examples of destructive communication about hard topics, we have lost our sense that anything else is possible. We can't even imagine that I could sit across the table from someone who disagrees with me, and feel heard and understood by that person. Meg: Be able to hear and understand what their experience and how they've come to their beliefs has been. That's what we do. Stephanie: It's such important work. I mean, it is a real crisis, I have to tell you and I feel like in a differently trained way than you, I tried to do that in my classroom and yet, in personal life, things get more complicated and it's really easy to fight or flight, that you either fight the fight and sometimes it doesn't always have to be a fight. It can be a combination but everything feels like a fight these days or flight, which is just shut down. I'm just not going to deal with you. I'm not going to engage and there's a certain amount of ... there's a lot of disservice and violence in that, of negating someone entirely and yet, engaging when another person doesn't have the same skill set, and where my skill set might be really out of training, because of the world we're living in, can be a really, really hard thing. Stephanie: It also seems like it's a hard thing for someone like me, I would say, who's very outcome oriented, right? When I directed Montserrat, one of my colleagues said, "Okay, we need to process these program goals and outcomes all around assessment," right? I said, "Well, we did that, didn't we." She said, "No, we need to have more meetings and more conversation." I'm like, " Ugh, process." So, I discovered, I'm kind of a closet autocrat, that I ... the illusion of democracy but I really just, let's get it done, right? So, I've learned as an adult to slow down and listen and embrace process more. My teenage children might not agree with that but at least in the professionals space, I tried to do that. Stephanie: It's been a challenge for me, and I know that you also are a person who's outcome oriented, action oriented, but you're also a process person. So, what advice would you give us today, who are all having these conversations in our lives, professionally or personally, around this idea of process itself being worthwhile and not just thinking about the win or the outcome? Meg: Yeah. That is- Stephanie: Consultation, free consultation, but it's true and this is mission, right? This is exactly ... when you talk about your Venn diagram, again, I think you're very lucky and I think you've also been really intentional about creating that diagram. Some of it might be luck, but a lot of it is choices and most of us don't necessarily have as integrated of a Venn diagrams as I think you've been able to construct. So, what do you think? How can we do this better? What would you say to folks that want the outcome that weight with the process. Meg: So I mean, my thing is ... I often say this to clients who are like, we got to get to the business. We got, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, "Y'all, this is the work. The process is the work because if we're stuck in destructive patterns, we got to rebuild a different kind of pattern. We have to examine the processes that are getting us stuck and every process is designed to get exactly what it gets." So, if you're going to try and like, be different together, you have to have a different process. For me, I think about naming that with people up front, because we are so outcomes focused, right? People call us because there's a problem, an acute problems. Sometimes a very public problem, sometimes a lawsuit kind of problem. Stephanie: Right. Meg: They want to fix things and I think- Stephanie: Make it go away. Make it go away. Fix it and move on. Meg: Yes and hopefully, people when they call us, they're not trying to just check a box, they're actually trying to change the culture of their organization or their campus and build some new skills so that they don't need to keep bringing us in all the time if they can start to build their capacity to change and shift things themselves. Stephanie: I was thinking that it sounds like the kind of work people and organizations should do before the acute crisis. In other words, you should build your skill set before the crisis, because what I talked to you about was this idea of how do you bring people who are so outcome oriented, think of the process is the work because ... And also how do you do it when it's asymmetrical? Let's say you have the skills of process, but the person on the other end doesn't have the skills? How do you leapfrog them? Meg: Yeah, and so, one of the things that we do organizationally is we have a couple of certain organizational norms and principles. One is, we say, connect before content. So every time we're doing anything, a client call, a workshop, a dialogue, we build the time in to connect as humans before we get down to business. We do that really simply, we might ask a question like, what are you bringing with you into this conversation that it would be helpful for other people to know about as we prepare to like land in this conversation, or tell me about how your morning has been, right? It doesn't have to be so fancy and what we do in every engagement is we try to model a different kind of process. Meg: Bring people into that so that they can see what shifts. So, I'll say, I actually have done some work at Holy Cross, I worked with the chaplains' office with Marybeth Kearns-Barrett, who was trained by us when we were still Public Conversations Project back in the late '90s, as an early adopter of dialogue and we were able to work together to re-imagine the freshmen retreat and I trained a bunch of Holy Cross faculty and students and staff in our facilitation model to prepare to lead that retreat last fall. Marybeth, she took this idea of a connecting question into other work that she was doing on campus, and that she heard from someone who participated in that conversation, that it was the most seen and understood, that community member has ever felt on this campus. Meg: Because they were able to show up and tell a different side of who they are in that space. Because in our work lives, we're often put in boxes of ... and we introduce ourselves, name, rank and serial number, how long we've been here where, all these things that can actually serve to disconnect us rather than connect us because it can highlight our differences or different levels of power and status. When we ask a connecting question that actually invites story or experience, a little bit more of our humanity into the room, and we suddenly see each other in a new way, in a more three dimensional way. The same is true in a deeply divisive polarizing dialogue. Meg: That what we do is we invite people to share a story about something that would help other people understand how they came to their position on an issue. We don't ask people to state their positions. That's a destructive pattern of communication. We know what that looks like when it plays out when all you do is bring a position to the conversation. When you can bring a story, a piece of who you are and then when you can share the values that are underneath that story, you start to get a more complex picture and then, you ask people actually, where have you experienced internal tension on this issue? That is a completely different conversation. Meg: There are infinite, more possibilities for how that conversation can unfold and if we stick to our typical pro and con, or and against position conversations, Stephanie: That's really, really helpful to think about, and it makes me ... I don't think I did this in the class I taught with you but I do this political autobiography assignment that actually, Margaret Post back when she was directing the CBL and Donelan Center really helped me shape and she also does a lot of this kind of service work and scholarship. It's the same thing, I asked my first years to write a political autobiography without any guidance, just like who are you? What do you believe? It's very much a position statement, pro, con and then, through a series of interviews with peers and different reflective exercises and the readings and of course, over the course of the semester or year, if I'm teaching at Montserrat, they rewrite various points of it. Stephanie: It's so interesting, because slowly as trust is built and confidence, and a sense of community, they feel able to share, exactly what we're saying, when you said a piece of themselves. It makes that position so much more legible, and it makes it legible to the peer and the various peers that are reading those autobiographies or having the interviews. I always try to put people that I've ... have a sense of might be oppositional in the conversation, because it's easy to be oppositional on paper but when you're sitting at Cool Beans with a cup of coffee, and I say go to breakfast, have coffee, sit on the hovel, suddenly, I understand Meg, even if I might disagree with her. Stephanie: Suddenly she's going to understand me differently and 201, the students that comment, they love the assignment and again, it's built on the shoulders of other people and their help to me. They comment that, that experience of being with a peer talking about serious value driven questions, and needing to listen because they have to reproduce the conversation, each of them and then reflect on it, as part of the assignment, was the high point, right? That's just like a teeny little bit of what sounds like what you're doing though, that adults need to do that, right? So, these are these young people information and it's underneath this academic umbrella. Stephanie: Then, it's like, okay, your credential, if you've got your BS or your BA go out into the world, you're fully formed now and clearly, we still need that. I need that reminder, in my own life. It's funny, I feel like I can facilitate that a little bit with my students because of my position as professor and they have to do what I say, but am I doing it in my own life in the spaces that that needs doing? Meg: Well, I love that and that is so beautiful, Stephanie because I mean, when we talk about how to bring this work into the classroom, we have a particular approach. It's highly structured and it's structured because we know that that helps people feel safe enough to contribute. There's a sense of certainty about what to expect. They know that there's a container for the conversation to happen inside of and it can hold a lot. The container can hold a lot of emotion, a lot of disagreement, all of those things but you don't have to bring a 90-minute structured dialogue into your classroom, to create the kind of dialogic spirit that you have clearly demonstrated, right? Meg: It can be as simple as helping students, and then also to your point, bringing this out into the world, in our families, in whatever, right? Helping them to ask questions that will invite that deeper experience, that is behind their belief. It's about following our curiosity instead of listening to debate or persuade, right? The intentionality that we bring to our listening and to our asking of questions, we know has a powerful impact on what we hear and how a person responds. So, we come with a genuine curious question. We're going to get a really different response from our interlocutor or conversation partner than if we come with a question that's actually just a suggestion with an inflection point at the end of the sentence, don't you think it would be better if you just did this? Stephanie: Do you mean my mom voice? Yes, I know that, I've heard that once or twice. I always say I'm a better professor than I am a parent. I'm so much more generous and open ended with my students than with my own children. Meg: My God, please. Heather is like, that doesn't sound like a curious question. Stephanie: There's no fun in it. Yeah, I'm not talking ... That is great, I love that she says that. Look, bring your work to home. Usually, it's like your work at the work place and you're like, "Okay, bring it into this conversation." That is too funny. Well, I would like to write my congressional representative, Jim McGovern and suggest that he bring essential partners to Congress, because I think exactly what you're talking about is what we need and we need it frankly on local and state government levels, as well as institutionally what you're talking about, because I really think we are in a crisis and unfortunately, I don't believe that playing to just ... I mean, leadership matters and the tone is set from above in many ways, I believe in a ground up model too. Stephanie: I don't think that necessarily just notions of who's in charge is going to magically change how we have trained ourselves over decades frankly, really, it's not over a few years as a country but over decades to not listen and to not understand because people are angry and frustrated and then shut down. So, it sounds like if you were to describe yourself beyond, you need a new title. The associate does not encapsulate it. It's teacher, it's curiosity generator, it's ... you're a human can opener. You're a maker of space for these things to happen. We need a more- Meg: Crafter of questions and- Stephanie: Crafter of questions, that sounds like Hogwarts. The Crafter of questions and potions. Well, this is such a pleasure and I have to say I'm so glad you do this work, Meg, because we really so desperately need it. It must feel wonderful to do work that you really believe and see, as needed and effective. That's really awesome, so thank you for that. I'm going to shift gears and do you want to say one more thing? Go ahead. Meg: I just want to add, I think sometimes dialogue gets a bad rep because there are so many urgent issues that need action and attention. So, I just want to say that dialogue is a tool, and our approach has, at its heart, a purpose of building and supporting mutual understanding, and it is not going to solve all the world's problems but what it is really good at is building trust, building understanding and building social cohesion in communities that have been sort of torn or harmed in terms of their sense of community, and it can lay a really strong foundation for action, for a community coming to know and understand where its shared values and shared hopes are and then, moving toward that. Stephanie: Again, this is a ... it's a really helpful precondition. A really necessary precondition but I appreciate you saying that because I think, again, as historian of the ... and I think about Martin Luther King Jr. in Alabama, Birmingham and the City Council saying, "Just wait, don't do this now, wait. This isn't the time," and he wrote his piece why we can't wait and the letter from the Birmingham Jail. So, there does come a time when dialogue shuts down, because it's not really dialogue. It's not dialogue of ... sort of you're talking about, which is people on various positions and I'm saying sides because we don't want to be binary, occupying various spaces in the conversation, who are equally equipped to have a true dialogue, as opposed to not equipped. Stephanie: If people refuse to be equipped, and they insist on being equipped or failed to be equipped, then, of course, I understand why it breaks down and people have to act, because you're right, action toward justice is what the process is hopefully leading toward. Meg: Yeah and people have to ... I think people who come to the dialogue table, they come because they're in touch with something that means a lot to them, and they care enough to show up and listen and try to muddle through with people who they know, occupy different positions and to me, that's a sign of hope in and of itself, if people are willing to come to the table and that they have a shared commitment to making some kind of change, making their community better, making space for more voices and re-humanizing the quote, unquote, other and that ... again, process is an outcome. Stephanie: It were, you say, yeah. Meg: The outcome of that is increased trust, increase connection, increased resilience of listening and social cohesion that, as you said, can be a precondition for greater change in terms of structural change or organizational change, or societal- Stephanie: Yeah, absolutely and even an opportunity for decreasing certain kinds of behaviors, right, is also ... plus its increasing capacity, but not just dismissing a person because you think you know their whole bio or of course, that's how they're going to react and I'm sure that in your work, you come up against certain parties in various institutions, when they hear your plan, say, "Well, I'm not going to do that, right. That's not for me." That must be really frustrating because the idea is to build that trust so that, people who need it, who's all of us, that's the other piece, it's not just certain parties need to hear all, all the parties need to hear. Stephanie: I think that that's a really inclusive model. Awesome. That's great work. It's so needed, I want you to come to my house in my next Thanksgiving dinner, Meg and we'll have a consultation. All right, so let's shift gears, because we don't have too much time left, although I could do this all day long. I wish I could. I'm going to do something called speed round for fun. Meg: Okay. Stephanie: My gosh, what is it? Okay, and I'm going to ask you a series of questions and I just want you to answer in whatever way you want. Okay? They're really, really heavy questions. These are heavy questions that are going to shape the future of the world, ready? Favorite vacation spot? Meg: Wellfleet. The Cape. Stephanie: Beautiful. Favorite baked good that you make yourself? Meg: Homemade no knead bread. Stephanie: Favorite dessert that's a dessert, baked good. Of course. It's so funny that I say baked good, I'm immediately thinking chocolate and you say bread. So, favorite dessert, dessert not just bread. Meg: It's the Italian in me. Stephanie: I know. Right. Meg: I don't actually make a lot of desserts but I buy the most delicious brownie from The Vegan. I know, it sounds unbelievable. The Vegan bakery down the street has amazing fudgy chocolatey brownies. Stephanie: Delicious. All right, then that sounds perfect. I like that. My mother was a baker like that. She was like, I don't really bake, but I go to Paris Pastry Bakery and I buy the best stuff in pink boxes. What is one of your favorite places in Worcester, because you also lived here for a while after graduation, what's one of your favorite places in Worcester? Meg: Can I say your house? Stephanie: Yes, you're so sweet. Thank you. More importantly, what's your favorite restaurant in Providence, your current home? Meg: We have a weekly standing Friday night dinner at the Vegetarian Place down the street. It's Garden Grill and we miss them terribly while they were shut down and now, we get takeout usually on Friday night. Stephanie: Nice. Garden Grill in Providence. Excellent. Do you make New Year's resolutions or is it every day resolutions? Meg: I don't usually make a New Year's resolution. I try to reflect on the previous year, around that time of year. I don't really make resolutions. Stephanie: That's good. I think you live resolutions every day. Resolutions are outcome oriented. They're not process oriented anyway, right? Meg: Yeah. Yeah. Stephanie: Maybe what we should make are New Year's process commitments. We need to change that to ... change your title and change that tradition. All right, what about ... real quick back to Holy Cross, what was your favorite dorm that you lived in? Meg: I was the first class to move into what was simply called the apartments, my senior year, now Williams Hall. I was the senior resident director. The first ever in the senior apartments. Stephanie: Did you get a room with a good view of downtown? Meg: I was in the basement, so not the perfect view, but close to the nice balcony- Stephanie: They do. Meg: Yeah. Stephanie: That overlooked Worcester. What about if it's possible back in the early 2000s, your favorite food at Kimball? Meg: Gosh. Stephanie: It's gotten so good. Meg: Probably, froyo with cereal on top. Stephanie: Yeah, I think that's probably still, because that constant open machine of the froyo, yeah. What kind of cereal? Meg: Cinnamon toast crunch or something with sugar- Stephanie: There you go. Excellent and then, what's the best part about being a Holy Cross graduate? What's the best part about being part of this community and I'm going to add, what is something you would like to see more in this community of people? Meg: Well, one of the best things about being an alum is that I got to build the LGBTQ alumni network and meet a bunch of really fabulous and I mean fabulous in all the ways, LGBTQ alums and be part of creating a space where some of our alums who had never stepped foot on campus since they graduated, and had felt really disconnected from the college could reconnect. So, we have a network of hundreds of alums from across many decades and more than a handful of people have made it known to us that they have not had a relationship with the college until this group was founded and recognized and the college was so supportive when we approached them a number of years ago. Meg: Really, the request and encouragement of students at the time from the Abigail Allies now Pride group who wanted to see alums be recognized and organized so that they could see themselves in the alumni community, and that they could have support from alums. So that work has been really meaningful and my colleague, Phil Dardeno, from the class of 2002, has really held that work and steered the ship for the last few years. Stephanie: Wonderfully so and I can attest how important that group is for students. This model of, of being able to move through this place and be true to oneself and have a community that matters, that's wonderful. What would you like to see more from your alum group or from ... what do you what do you hope Holy Cross graduates can bring to the world right now? Meg: Gosh. Stephanie: It's a diverse group of people, so it's so hard. Meg: I know. Stephanie: A hard ask. Meg: Holy Cross alums are doing amazing things in the world and I love how we have Dr. Anthony Fauci out there representing some of what it means to be a Holy Cross alum right now and I'd love to see more storytelling and more ways to bring alums back together. I think the affinity spaces is the future of alumni development and alumni community because I imagine I'm not alone in this. My relationships and connection as a student spanned all four ... well, more than four, graduating classes because I was involved in so much. The idea of coming back for reunion is like, lovely and also, those are not all my people. I missed the people that I saw and had relationships with, that were years ahead and below me. Meg: I would love more opportunities for alumni to gather and now, that must be virtual. Also, for the college to tell the story of more alumni who might be not as famous as Dr. Fauci is and doing really amazing and important work in the world and that's why I love this podcast, but also, I think to amplify and elevate voices of alums who are doing ... who are living their mission and the colleges and then, have opportunities to like hang out together and learn from each other and like rub off on one another a little bit. Stephanie: Exactly, and then, that's that sustainability thing, right, that it fires in sustainable and relationships. That's awesome, Meg. I am so grateful for you, taking the time today to share your story with us and also to share your wisdom around process and relational exchange and hope. Whenever I speak with you, I always leave with a great sense of admiration, love but also such a sense of hope. You're a person who makes things possible and I thank you for that because sometimes this world feels like that ... possibilities feel, they're shutting down. They're literally shut down with isolation, right? It's just really revivifying to spend time with you and I appreciate how well you live the mission. Do you still have your T-shirt, we should have had you wear it. Stephanie: Maybe you have to find an old picture of you in the T-shirt to send ... to post with the podcast, of moving people into the apartments, right? Meg: I'll have to ask Brenda Hounsell-Sullivan, if she has an old orientation photo of me with the Live the Mission. Stephanie: I'm sure she does. I'm so grateful. Thank you so much. I will hopefully come down to Providence and grab some Garden Grill with you and Heather, and my husband Tony soon and keep up all the wonderful work you do. Thank you for being part of the Holy Cross story, Meg. Meg: Thank you for being one of my beacons along the way, Stephanie. Maura: That’s our show!  I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be people for and with others.   A special thanks to today’s guests, and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you, or someone you know, would like to be featured on this podcast, please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu.  If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Relations at The College of the Holy Cross.  You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts. I’m you’re host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of St. Ignatius of Loyola, now go forth, and set the world on fire. --- Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

The career public servant has served a president and in the cabinets of three governors, and is not afraid of tackling big, complicated jobs that help the disenfranchised while building better communities. Karen Baker was raised in Ohio with seven siblings where there was not much opportunity to be selfish. Her upbringing taught her the value of selflessness and service, which has helped shape her decades-long career in public service. Whether it was volunteering with the Jesuit Volunteer Corps while attending UCLA, working for a congressmember in Washington, D.C. or being appointed by President Clinton to help create AmeriCorps, Karen Baker has always been inspired by creativity and problem solving within communities. “I'm particularly interested in that because I feel like one of the biggest things that people miss as a leader is just the ability to really listen very hard and then create,” Baker explains. “And part of how community is created by being there for each other and serving, and I think that's the glue of our culture.” Karen Baker has held cabinet positions under three California governors, and currently leads Gov. Newsom’s Listos California, a multi-million-dollar initiative to educate disabled, non-English speaking, and other vulnerable populations across the state about disaster preparedness, including COVID-19. Its mission is guided by the principle of letting the community decide how best to reach its members. Baker admits it is a big and complicated job, but it is the kind of problem-solving that she knows will have a significant impact on the lives of others. “I think the only thing that you have to be aware of when you need to be inspired is: What are you giving?” she asks. “You have to keep doing those acts of service. Cause that's what makes you feel connected in my view. And that's where the joy comes.” Listen to the full interview with Karen Baker to hear more about her tremendous career of helping others, an inspiring drive-thru event in Mendota, Calif., and a special bond created over a shared favorite book. Learn more and subscribe for free to In The Arena at www.governing.com/ITA

On today's episode of the #STRIVECast, Jeff and Noel interview their old friend - STRIVE's former volunteer Peggy Ceresia! Peggy joined us through the Jesuit Volunteer Corps in 2015-2016, and has remained a close friend of STRIVE ever since. Peggy tells us all about her job as a 1st grade teacher and Chicago, and how her time at STRIVE prepared her for the role. Stick around for another round of Noel's Poetry, aka Noeltry, another Ask Jeff advice segment, and of course, another game of Susie's Q's! Happy listening!

A conversation with Dr. Jeannine Hill Fletcher, Professor of Theology at Fordham University, NY, on her book The Sin of White Supremacy: Christianity, Racism, and Religious Diversity in America (Orbis, 2017), featuring Dr. Hans Abdiel Harmakaputra of Hartford Seminary, CT, and Dr. (cand.) Elia Maggang of the University of Manchester, UK. Dr. Hill Fletcher grew up in a suburb of Chicago and attended the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign as an undergraduate, majoring in English. After a year with the Jesuit Volunteer Corps, she attended Harvard Divinity School, earning her MTS and ThD from the school. She joined the Fordham faculty in 2001. Readings: Ch. 1 of The Sin of White Supremacy: https://bit.ly/JHF-SIN "Christology of the Lynching Tree": https://bit.ly/JHF-CHRISTOLOGY *** Tim @Theovlogy berkomitmen memberikan materi akademik dan praktis yang bermutu secara gratis. Namun, bila Anda tertarik mendukung komitmen kami, Anda dapat menjadi patron kami melalui pranala Patreon https://www.patreon.com/theovlogy

One of the most common questions pastors get asked is for help on how to read the Bible. Rev. Emily Snowden breaks down the concept of how we can take the Bible seriously without taking it literally. She reassures us that something can be true without it being “capital T true.” Emily also helps us understand why adapting is not only important - it is vital. We can either adapt, change, or die - both as churches and as a people. Change and adaptation are vital for survival. Listen in as Emily encourages us to learn how to make important shifts, how to ask important questions, all while remembering that we are wholly beloved by God.Rev. Emily Snowden serves Congregational United Church of Christ in Arlington Heights, Illinois. She also serves as a coach with Seed to Stem Coaching, which she runs with her colleague Sean (Weston) Williams. Pastor Emily graduated from Elmhurst College where she studied History, Theological Studies/Christian Ministry, and Intercultural Studies. After graduating from Elmhurst, Pastor Emily served as a member of the Jesuit Volunteer Corps at a drop-in center for homeless young adults in Los Angeles. She then earned her Master of Divinity degree from the Pacific School of Religion in Berkeley, CA. Among other positions, she has served as a hospital chaplain in Michigan, a sabbatical pastor for a UCC church in Champaign, IL, and most recently as the Interim Director of the Niebuhr Center for Engagement and Reflection at Elmhurst College. Pastor Emily shares her life with her wife Sasha, her twin kiddos, and their dog. She loves drinking tea, listening to music, and cooking. She occasionally plays the guitar, practices yoga, and travels.

Our special guest is Senator Bob Casey, who has been representing the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania in the Senate since 2007. In addition to being a dedicated public servant, Senator Casey has major Jesuit cred: He graduated from a Jesuit high school (Scranton Prep, Class of 1978). He graduated from a Jesuit college (The College of the Holy Cross, Class of 1982). Then, he spent a year with the Jesuit Volunteer Corps, teaching and coaching basketball at the Gesu School in Philadelphia. Senator Casey and host Mike Jordan Laskey discuss the Senator's Jesuit education and how it prepared him for a career in public service. They also talked about the COVID-19 pandemic, and what roles he thinks the federal government should be playing in our response to this difficult time. And stick around until the end, when Mike asks Senator Casey to weigh in on one of Pennsylvania’s biggest culinary debates. It has to do with various forms of breakfast meat. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe to AMDG wherever you listen to podcasts. And tell your friends, especially residents of the Keystone State.

Patrick and Billy share the graces they received from their recent silent retreat. Tom Chabolla, President of the Jesuit Volunteer Corps, joins us (via Zoom) for a conversation about faith, justice, and everything in between!

Dan Misleh has been engaged in the social mission of the Catholic Church since 1982 when he joined the Jesuit Volunteer Corps. In 2006, he founded Catholic Climate Covenant as a way to help the Catholic community understand and act on climate change from a position of faith. Catholic Climate Covenant helps to educate the Catholic community on creation care and provides programs and resources to help it be better stewards of the planet. Catholic Energies is a program of Catholic Climate Covenant.

The Catholic Apostolate Center, in collaboration with Catholic Volunteer Network, has created new reflections for the Lenten season. The Fifth Sunday of Lent Reflection is by Megan Gaskin from the Jesuit Volunteer Corps.

The Catholic Apostolate Center, in collaboration with Catholic Volunteer Network, has created new reflections for the Lenten season. The Fifth Sunday of Lent Reflection is by Megan Gaskin from the Jesuit Volunteer Corps.

The Catholic Apostolate Center, in collaboration with Catholic Volunteer Network, has created new reflections for the Lenten season. The Fifth Sunday of Lent Reflection is by Megan Gaskin from the Jesuit Volunteer Corps.

New episode dropping!! This week’s episode features none other than Timmy Gale, prospective grad student, avid library enthusiast, and part-time dog walker!! Timmy also volunteers at Holy Spirit Parish in San Jose, CA with youth ministry and Confirmation. Join us this week as Timmy dives into his faith journey, talking about his purpose in serving those on the margins of society and what true solidarity looks like. He talks about his time serving in Jesuit Volunteer Corps and how that has shifted his perspective on authentic community and influenced his decision to pursue grad school for social work. (Timmy doesn’t have an insta, but you can follow him on VSCO @/monroegale)

Welcome to Episode #003! This time we feature client, collaborator and friend, Abby Berger of the Independence Center St. Louis. Abby has an incredibly important job at what I feel is one of the most vital non-profit organizations in the greater St. Louis region. Here is a little insight into what they do from their website: "We believe in the dignity of work. Work is more than a paycheck – it’s an affirmation of self-worth. It provides financial independence, purpose, and connects us to our community. Adults with mental illness often face enormous challenges in finding and keeping jobs. Even with skills and the ability to manage symptoms, the stigma of mental illness is a barrier to hiring them. Many of our members didn’t have the confidence to apply for a job, until they came to our program. Others had a good job, even a successful career, before their mental illness emerged and caused them to lose their employment. The Independence Center is here to help members who are able, to get on a path to meaningful employment, from wherever their starting point may be." Abby is the Business Development Manager but the title does not do justice to the many hats she wears at the Independence Center. She has her hands into everything from social media, video production with us here at Route 3 Films, Dancing with the St. Louis Stars, their biggest fundraiser and so, so much more. Take a listen to our wide ranging discussion from her early experiences as a volunteer in Jesuit Volunteer Corps to her beginnings in the mental health field to being at the helm of Dancing with the St. Louis Stars. Enjoy and share!

Mike Boyle is not your typical psychotherapist.  He's not your typical guy either, but he kinda used to be. A standout hockey player with aspirations to play in the NHL, Mike became critically depressed as a college athlete after suffering multiple head injuries.  He has since dedicated his life to healing and helping others thrive. He has worked extensively with people suffering from symptoms often designated as depression, anxiety, panic, bipolar, substance abuse and more.  He has two masters degrees in psychology, he has studied in numerous spiritual work and holistic health systems.  He keeps diligently abreast of cutting edge of neuroscience, and incorporates the best evidence-based methods into his work from both inside and outside the box, such as Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP) and Dialectical Behavioral Therapy (DBT).     While this all sounds fancy - which it is - what I really love about Mike is that, as evolved and well-read as he is, underneath it all he's still that kid from Boston that I knew as my college roommate's younger brother and a "wicked badass hockey playa":  He's a guy who, when he was teaching yoga, considered creating a course for men called “get your balls back yoga”, but he thought better of it.     Still, his saltiness and blue collar roots frame and ground his message in a way that makes it really accessible to "normal people"... particularly "Dudes" - if you've got a typical guy in your life, maybe your Dad, a brother, a boyfriend - the kind of guy that doesn't like talking about his feelings and you just can't get in there and crack him open - you're gonna want to send this episode to them.  He also works with couples who are seeking to try a new, more effective approach at achieving harmony at home in addition to his extensive work with Veterans.      SHOW NOTES:  Diving into what Mike does on a daily basis as a psychotherapist, (8:55). Growing up in New England with dreams of playing in the NHL, (11:55). “I have a distinct memory of a time when I was 5 years old sitting on my mom’s lap watching the news. I couldn’t deal with how much suffering I was seeing.”, (13:40). Learning that children can make decisions unconsciously, (13:52). Implications of numbing out the suffering with a macho attitude, (14:55). Smoking marijuana starting in middle school, (15:45). Falling into a depression in college, (17:00). Major catalysts to his spiral down, (20:10). Having arrogance as a college hockey player, (22:05). “They got into bed with me. 13 lacrosse, football, hockey players gave me a group hug.”, (23:45). Entering therapy and being introduced to meditation, (24:35). Catalyzing a process to alleviate suffering, (25:45). Balancing out being nurturing and tough, (27:25). Studying various sciences around emotions, (29:10). Taking time off from college and volunteering, (30:25). His Uncle Ed, a Jesuit Priest, as his biggest inspiration on spirituality, (31:40). Volunteering for the Jesuit Volunteer Corps and moving to a Native American Reserve, (32:10). “Why am I teaching these Native kids Christianity when they have this perfectly intact spiritual tradition.”, (33:47). Returning to the U.S. from Thailand without any savings, (39:20). Working tons of hours in the Union while studying in graduate school and supporting his own family, (41:05). “A 6-inch metal suspended from the ceiling of the Oakland Coliseum got unhooked and swung like a pendulum across the room. I had no idea that it was coming, and this thing hits me completely in the forehead.”, (42:05). “Now, I needed with conscious confidence to heal myself again with all the knowledge I had.”, (44:35). Explaining what reaching into a continuum is, (47:10). “With any trauma and when your nervous system is overwhelmed, there’s guilt and shame. We beat ourselves up.”, (48:48). “We can’t wait for the outer circumstances in our life to be what we want them to be in order to be who we are to be who we need to be.”, (53:02). Encouraging his wife, who is a musician, to remember to love of music, (55:15). Being grateful for encountering obstacles, (57:05). “If we are growing in psychological and spiritual maturity, we realize we can already surrender and let go without 10 years of struggle and 10,000 hits on the head.”, (1:00:28). Choosing to be your dominant influence of your life, (1:05:34). “Often times, therapy makes things worst because when we talk about problems even in the interest of trying to fix them, we actually light up all this neurology, biology and chemistry as the problem. So, we really have to spend time focusing on creating solutions rather than fixing problems.”, (1:10:08). Turning suffering into radiant virtues, (1:010:35). Advising to his 5-year old self to not shut down and be the compassionate human being he was born to be,(1:17:25).    LINKS:  Website: Mike's Energy of Mind  LinkedIn: Michael Boyle  National Veterans Wellness & Healing Center  Music: Chaman, Michael's Wife's Work    RELATED 10,000 “No”s EPISODES:  Ep 40: Make Pain Your Guru, Traver Boehm  Ep 57:  Shame, Addiction & Community, Professional Counselor Tim Craley  Ep 93: How to Regain Control of Your Life After Walking Through the Fires of Addiction, Sam Morris     If you like what you hear, please Subscribe, leave an iTunes review and spread the word. You can also listen to all episodes at www.10000nos.com 

Aisha first walked us through the Musical-Conference she is putting up. Then we scrolled back to the place software entered her life. We then talked about her volunteering at the Cristo Rey High school and then in the Jesuit Volunteer Corps. We discussed how this formed her teaching skills as well as letting her dig deeper into software development. We talked about her bootcamp and how teaching came full circle into her life. We discussed pairing and exploring and finished on a high note, talking about the art of transferring knowledge effectively.Aisha Blake is an Application Developer at Detroit Labs currently building , a musical tech extravaganza. She co-organizes self.conference and „Detroit Speakers in Tech“. She approaches speaking and teaching as a way to give others the tools to shine as brightly as they can. In her spare time, she sings karaoke and pets dogs. Aisha is a champion of feedback, fierce accessibility advocate, and a steward of strong and joyful teams.Here are the links of the show:https://www.twitter.com/AishaBlakehttps://aisha.codes/title-of-confhttp://titleofconf.orghttp://grandcircus.coAnjana VakilJesuit Volunteer CorpsDetroit Cristo Rey High SchoolCreditsMusic Aye by Yung Kartz is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 License.Your hostSoftware Developer‘s Journey is hosted and produced by Timothée (Tim) Bourguignon, a crazy frenchman living in Germany who dedicated his life to helping others learn & grow. More about him at timbourguignon.fr.Want to be next?Do you know anyone who should be on the podcast? Do you want to be next? Drop me a line: info@devjourney.info or via Twitter @timothep.Gift the podcast a ratingPlease do me and your fellow listeners a favor by spreading the good word about this podcast. And please leave a rating (excellent of course) on the major podcasting platforms, this is the best way to increase the visibility of the podcast:Apple PodcastsStitcherGoogle PlayPatreonFinally, if you want to help produce the podcast, support me on Patreon. Every cent you pledge will help pay the hosting bills!Thanks!Support the show (http://bit.ly/2yBfySB)

Preaching for the Fourteenth Sunday in Ordinary Time, Emily Rauer Davis offers a reflection on finding strength, comfort, and hope in God our Mother: "In spite of the hardships we face, or creeping feelings of despair, we are invited to recall the love of God as Mother: nurturing us, consoling us, and reassuring us of our place in the world. We are called to be a people of hope as we go about our work as disciples in our broken world, with God’s promise of abundant, gratuitous love as our foundation." Emily Rauer Davis is Assistant Chaplain and Director of Domestic Immersions at the College of the Holy Cross in Worcester, MA. A 1999 graduate of Holy Cross, she spent a year with the Jesuit Volunteer Corps in Fresno, CA before receiving her Master of Divinity degree at Weston Jesuit School of Theology. Visit www.catholicwomenpreach.org/preaching/07072019 to learn more about Emily, to read her text, view her video, and for more preaching from Catholic women.

Summary: A tenured attorney, Kevin Snyder earned his LL.M (Masters of Law) from the California Western School of Law; his JD (Juris Doctorate) from the University of Richmond School of Law, graduating with honors; and his B.A. (Bachelor of Arts) from Boston College, also graduating with honors (go Eagles!). Mr. Snyder is an active member of Wealth Counsel and Elder Counsel as well as the Trust & Estates and Elder Law sections of the Orange County Bar Association.  He has also been published in the OC Lawyer magazine multiple times. Prior to opening Snyder Law, PC, Mr. Snyder worked in a variety of legal disciplines. One of which was as a public defender in Orange County.  He has defended countless adults, juveniles, and veterans at all stages criminal court proceedings. He also gained a unique experience working closely with veterans in the Veteran’s Treatment Court. This experience prepared Kevin well for his Veteran Defense practice and the personalized care, attention, and diligence necessary in his role as a trusted estate advisor. Prior to attending law school, Kevin spent a year in the Jesuit Volunteer Corps where he was “ruined for life” and left with a lasting impression of how important it is to be a “man for others.” Kevin currently serves on the Board of Trustees for St. Joseph Hospital in Orange, the Holy Family Cathedral Finance Committee, and provides pro bono legal services through the Veterans Legal Institute. In This Particular Episode You Will Learn: Kevin's background and experience Overview of Veteran Courts Types of situations that veterans find themselves in  Veterans reactions to their involvement in veteran courts Peer Support in Veteran Courts Developing an understanding of veteran culture Harnessing veteran motivation Female veterans in the criminal justice system Misdemeanor diversion courts Links Mentioned in This Episode: Justice for Vets Website Veteran Courts on the Head Space and Timing Blog Kevin's Web Site Snyder Law Contact Number: (949) 333-3702 You can be sure to find future episodes of Head Space and Timing, and all of the CYPOV Podcast Network Shows, by subscribing through your Podcast player of choice, like iTunes. Using an app makes subscribing and listening to podcasts (both ours and others) so much simpler. Just subscribe to Change Your POV Podcast within your app and it will automatically update every time a new episode is released. Do you want to check out Duane's latest book, Combat Vet Don't Mean Crazy? Check it out by finding it on Amazon 

Summary: A tenured attorney, Kevin Snyder earned his LL.M (Masters of Law) from the California Western School of Law; his JD (Juris Doctorate) from the University of Richmond School of Law, graduating with honors; and his B.A. (Bachelor of Arts) from Boston College, also graduating with honors (go Eagles!). Mr. Snyder is an active member of Wealth Counsel and Elder Counsel as well as the Trust & Estates and Elder Law sections of the Orange County Bar Association.  He has also been published in the OC Lawyer magazine multiple times. Prior to opening Snyder Law, PC, Mr. Snyder worked in a variety of legal disciplines. One of which was as a public defender in Orange County.  He has defended countless adults, juveniles, and veterans at all stages criminal court proceedings. He also gained a unique experience working closely with veterans in the Veteran’s Treatment Court. This experience prepared Kevin well for his Veteran Defense practice and the personalized care, attention, and diligence necessary in his role as a trusted estate advisor. Prior to attending law school, Kevin spent a year in the Jesuit Volunteer Corps where he was “ruined for life” and left with a lasting impression of how important it is to be a “man for others.” Kevin currently serves on the Board of Trustees for St. Joseph Hospital in Orange, the Holy Family Cathedral Finance Committee, and provides pro bono legal services through the Veterans Legal Institute. In This Particular Episode You Will Learn: Kevin's background and experience Overview of Veteran Courts Types of situations that veterans find themselves in  Veterans reactions to their involvement in veteran courts Peer Support in Veteran Courts Developing an understanding of veteran culture Harnessing veteran motivation Female veterans in the criminal justice system Misdemeanor diversion courts Links Mentioned in This Episode: Justice for Vets Website Veteran Courts on the Head Space and Timing Blog Kevin's Web Site Snyder Law Contact Number: (949) 333-3702 You can be sure to find future episodes of Head Space and Timing, and all of the CYPOV Podcast Network Shows, by subscribing through your Podcast player of choice, like iTunes. Using an app makes subscribing and listening to podcasts (both ours and others) so much simpler. Just subscribe to Change Your POV Podcast within your app and it will automatically update every time a new episode is released. Do you want to check out Duane's latest book, Combat Vet Don't Mean Crazy? Check it out by finding it on Amazon 

Alyssa Pasternak Post preaches for the Eleventh Sunday in Ordinary time, offering a reflection encouraging us to be "courageous" in this already-but-not-yet time of God's reign. Alyssa Pasternak Post earned her bachelors degree in Theology from Wheeling Jesuit University and her Masters in Theological Studies from the University of Dayton. Post-college Alyssa served in the Jesuit Volunteer Corps at WomenRising in Jersey City, New Jersey, followed by a few years as a theology teacher at St. Dominic Academy in Jersey City and later at Archbishop Alter High School in Dayton, Ohio. She also facilitated theology courses on the subjects of morality, prayer and Catholic social teaching for The Virtual Learning Community for Faith Formation at the University of Dayton. Visit www.catholicwomenpreach.org/preaching/06172018 to learn more about Alyssa, and to see her preaching video and text.

Jack Herstam served as the student body president during the 2017-2018 school year. Jack majored in political science and ethnic studies and previously led the orientation program. After graduating, he plans to take a gap year while serving in the Jesuit Volunteer Corps at his High School in Arizona, then enter law school to become a prosecutor or district attorney. https://www.voicesofsantaclara.com/jack-herstam See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Kathy Coffey-Guenther grew up immersed in Catholic, Jesuit culture with a philosophy professor father who surrounded her family with Jesuits and Marquette faculty. After graduating from Marquette, she experienced Jesuit Volunteer Corps and spent years working with trauma survivors. Today, as Marquette's Associate Vice President in Office of Mission and Ministry, she talks about why Marquette's Mission Week is more needed than ever before to help us engage with the world.

Dare to change! That’s one of the taglines of the Jesuit Volunteer Corps. At Standup Sisters 2017, Rhonda Miska recalls how her Jesuit Volunteer Corps experience in Nicaragua changed her. Rhonda is a novice with the Sinsinawa Dominican Sisters. That’s something like a sister-in-training. Here's Rhonda... For more information: https://www.sinsinawa.org/ http://www.unabridgedpress.com/

This week, we welcome Helen Pitts, who works with the Jesuit Volunteer Corp. She draws upon her tradition to share with us some of the wisdom from the greats of Christian tradition. Drawing from S.t Francis, St. Ignatius of Loyola, and Richard Rohr, she discusses with us what it means to live simply in our complex world and the freedom that it can lead to.

Welcome to the 322nd edition of Tranquility du Jour. Today's show features Ashley Goff on Feminine Spirituality. You'll get an inside peek into the life of an urban farming, yoga-loving, passion-filled minister.  Featured Guest: Ashley Goff is Minister for Spiritual Formation at Church of the Pilgrims (PCUSA) and ordained in the United Church of Christ. Ashley graduated with a Masters of Divinity from Union Theological Seminary in NYC where she fell in love with the art of liturgy.  She lives with deep gratitude for several communities which have formed her along the way: Denison University, the Jesuit Volunteer Corps, the Open Door Community, and Rikers Island NYC Jail.  Ashley has completed training in community organizing with the Industrial Areas Foundation and couples counseling with Imago Relationship Therapy.   Ashley also finds life in Springsteen music, beekeeping, urban farming, vinyasa yoga, valuable friends, her three kids and loveable spouse. "Om-ing" at Tranquil Space since 2005, Ashley completed TS's level 1 teacher training in January 2014. Ashley blogs about yoga, urban farming, and liturgy at godofthesparrow.com.     Savvy Sources: Website: God of the Sparrow Facebook: facebook.com/ashleykgoff Twitter: twitter.com/goffashley Seasonal online book club pick: 10% Happier Penning in Paris {1 spot left} Tranquility du Jour iPhone and Android app   Stay Au Courant: New? Peruse my FAQs. Join moi for a retreat, workshop, e-course, or seasonal podcast. Find moi on Goodreads. Connect on Facebook. Follow on Twitter.  View pics on Instagram @tranquilitydujour. Browse my books. Join the Tranquility du Jour weekly museletter. Read about my passion for pigs. Write a review on iTunes.   Techy: To listen, click on the player at the top of the post or click here to listen to older episodes. New to podcasting? Get more info at Podcast 411. Do you have iTunes? Click here and subscribe to the podcast to get the latest episode as released. Get the Tranquility du Jour apps to get the podcast automagically on iOS or Android.