Real Talk With Susan & Kristina

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Welcome to this week's episode of Real Talk! In this installment, hosts Susan and Kristina delve into the high-stakes world of college admissions alongside guest Davida Amkraut. As the trio navigates the aftermath of a particularly competitive admissions season, they offer invaluable insights, tips, and tricks to help listeners make informed decisions. With the college acceptance landscape resembling a bloodbath this year, many students have found themselves admitted to schools that weren't necessarily their first choice. Parents, this episode is essential listening as the team breaks down what you need to know before sending your child off to college. And for upcoming seniors, they provide crucial advice on staying ahead of the curve and crafting a strategic plan for the college application process. Tune in for a candid discussion packed with insider knowledge and practical guidance!   About Davida Amkraut: Davida is an Independent College Consultant who serves as the saving grace for students and families in crisis who are navigating the complex college application process. Whether a student finds themselves in trouble and is applying to college for the first time, or is transitioning from one university to another due to a Title IX or other university-related misconduct claim, Davida helps young adults shape their stories so that they gain acceptance into college.   TRANSCRIPT: Susan Stone: Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Kristina Supler. We are full time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real candid conversations.   Susan Stone: Last week was accepted students weekend for Tori. Can you believe it?    Kristina Supler: what a big, big like- How do you feel now that you know where she's going?   Susan Stone: Oh my gosh. First of all, for the listeners out there. My youngest just accepted college. She will be going to Ringling College in Sarasota, Florida, which is an art school.   Kristina Supler: Fabulous.    Susan Stone: To have it done for the final time was crazy. And our guest today, I also know has three kids, but I think all of them are out of college. Welcome back to Davida Amkraut .    Davida Amkraut: Thank you. Thank you. I actually have one still in college. He's just finishing his sophomore year, so.    Kristina Supler: Well, we're glad you're able to join us again.Our listeners probably remember you from some of your prior recordings with us and welcome back.    Davida Amkraut: It's good to see you guys. Yeah.    Susan Stone: Where is your youngest? Northeastern    Davida Amkraut: am I that's my middle. He's graduating in May from Northeastern. He's graduating in two weeks, and my youngest is at George Washington University.    Susan Stone: And how was his experience there?    Davida Amkraut: Loves loves loves loves it.He's in the pre physical therapy program there. So he's having  wow that's back. That's back to your that's your basic simpler. Yeah. Therapy. Yeah.   Susan Stone: may be great for everyone out here. Christina's family's in    Kristina Supler: PT Bizz    Susan Stone: So, DeVita, you've got a lot of career changes lately. Why don't you catch our listeners up with what you're doing?    Davida Amkraut: Yeah, so I'm still doing.I still am running my own private practice where I assist. This past year, I had about 55 kids from all across the country, actually, who I worked with, on college admissions. But I also joined a high school team, in the Bronx, where I'm working at a Jewish high school in the Bronx, and I am on their college counseling team.   So it's really fascinating for me to see both sides of the table. Right. So I'm working with kids from my computer, but then I'm also working with kids in person, and I've had a lot of access to admission officers, which has been amazing. I've been on advocacy calls for my students. For the listeners who don't know what that means is, prior to decisions being released, if schools allow it, we we have a call with the admission officer for our our rep for our region, and we're sort of able to pitch our case, you know, and, you know, tell them a little bit,    Kristina Supler: So  you can literally lobby for a particular student to have a spot at assembly Davida Amkraut: Only at certain schools. A lot of schools have done away with these advocacy calls, calls because it prevents and prevents inequity, because not every counselor has the time to make 400 phone calls for their students. But because we're at a smaller school, our caseload is a little bit smaller. So we do have the ears and eyes of some counselors who are still very happy to talk to us.   So, for example, Cooper Union, which is an engineering and architecture school in Manhattan. I don't know if you    Susan Stone: I looked at Cooper Union with Tory.    Davida Amkraut: Yeah. So I actually was able to talk to Cooper about my student, who they were considering for a regular decision, and give them an update about everything that he's been doing since he last applied in person. And then they were able to ask me questions, and it was like a 15 minute phone call. but it's a fascinating thing, right? To be able to have that access. Some schools will just call and give you the numbers of who is going to get in and who's not going to get in by names, actually. But you can't really advocate at that point because it's already done deal    Susan Stone: done deal.    Davida Amkraut: But they do give the courtesy to the admission, you know, the college counselors to let them know what our decisions are going to be so that we can be there for the students on the receiving end.    Susan Stone: Could you have done that for your private clients?   Davida Amkraut: No no no no no. They will never speak to independent office counselors at all. No.    Susan Stone: So what can the independent college counselor do that's different from the in-house school college counselor?    Davida Amkraut: So I always say the in-house school college counselor is not only well, it depends on if it's a college counselor or if it's a high school counselor. So you'll see that that verbiage has changed, because if it's a high school counselor, that counselor and I know in Beachwood in Shaker, they are high school counselors as well as college counselors.So not only are they dealing with a college process, they're also dealing with a social, emotional piece for every single student in that high school. So they have a very, very big, big caseload. You know, if they're dealing with social, emotional and college, college sort of doesn't always take, you know, the front seat to that. So an independent counselor can help identify schools.   They can help keep the kids on deadlines. They can do read throughs of essays. They could help position them a little bit better and look at their activities and say, you know, you're applying to an engineering program. You have nothing engineering on your application. We need to get you involved with something. A counselor at a large public school probably doesn't have the bandwidth to do that, right.   They're just looking at doing a cursory review. They're going on scatter grams, which is the, you know, the Naviance score to see where they have sent other kids in their school and making a guess about where the kids should apply without really having that in-depth consultation. If that makes sense    Susan Stone: When you have a kid, let's say you have five kids at your high school all looking at George Washington. Can you advocate for all five or do you have to?    Davida Amkraut: You probably wouldn't. We probably wouldn't advocate for all five. We would choose the one that we think would probably be the most successful, or the one that they would really want. looking at the profile and looking at and also knowing that that might not be that student's first choice.Right. We have that Intel. So we would never advocate for a school if it's an early action or if it's a regular decision for a school that we know that the kid would never go to. Does that make sense? We know what    Susan Stone: they're right, kid. But let's say you have three kids. I'm going to say a popular school this year.They want Michigan and they're dying to get into Michigan. Do you pick the best horse?    Davida Amkraut: Well, Michigan doesn't let advocacy calls. Are you surprised by that? They, they have a    Kristina Supler: no, because they don't need to. I mean, that they get the best of best.    Davida Amkraut: They had 75,000 applications this year for a class that's housed. That was their numbers for this year.That was 70,000 early action. Right. So who knows how many additional people who had in their regular season. Right. So a lot of kids will not apply during that early action because they want to use that time to get their grades up, for instance. Right? So then they'll hold back their application until the January 1st to really show their, you know, the upward trajectory. So that's only 70,000 early action applications for our class of 7,000. Right.  Kristina Supler: So what are your takeaways from this past, you know, season? I mean what did you see, what trends and what lessons, you know, were learned for students who are, you know, on the brink for next year?    Davida Amkraut: Yeah. Well, I would say actually, funny you should ask that.But just yesterday we had two bombshells just dropped on our laps on April 11th that two of the big schools are now going to require testing. Harvard and Cal Tech announced April 11th that they're gonna require testing, which is very, very it's it's so hurtful to so many counselors who are listening that to    Kristina Supler: Other schools announced that to  in the Ivys   Davida Amkraut: They did it before the march SATs    Kristina Supler: earlier. So that's the issue was the timing.    Davida Amkraut: The timing is terrible because after reading why   Susan Stone: that's a bomb debate is are they punishing the kids who didn't submit? There's    Davida Amkraut: no I think I think we I don't think that they're punishing. I mean, Harvard, 80, 86% of their kids submitted test scores, so they were never fully test optional, right? That's that's for sure. But it is for kids who are, you know, who have planned their testing, who have talked to counselors, who have sort of said, okay, I want to focus on X, Y, and Z because I'm just not a great tester. That really puts them now in a bind to have to test. And the next S.A.T., I think, is the end of May. So they don't have as many shots now to take that S.A.T. if they were just counting on that early decision, if that makes sense.    Susan Stone: No. I'm confused. So you're saying for the kids who got who put in their application for Harvard, but didn't test, they have to scramble and get a test?    Davida Amkraut: No, no, no, this is for the next cycle.   This is next year. Next year. Now this cycle is already done. But it's for kids. I mean, if you think about April and these kids are already planning, you know, and they're working and they have a schedule and they're planning on when they're exactly doing everything. And now the school says, okay, you have to do testing. Now they have to scramble and go back.   If they weren't planning on testing to go back and start studying, it's just not ethical, I mean, listen, I think Caltech and Harvard are very, very high ranking schools, and I'm assuming most of their kids knew already that they had to have testing that will position them. But there are some schools out there who still have not announced what their plans are for this coming cycle.   Susan Stone: So wouldn't you counsel them, everybody take a test.    Davida Amkraut: We do, we do, we do. I counsel everybody to take a test because you don't want to have would have, could have. But it's more like the second or third test, you know, should that kid ten take a take it a third time? Should they take it a fourth time? Should they get additional tutoring. Right? And also you have the issue of the digital S.A.T. versus the pen to paper. Right. So not every school has announced if you can super score your pen to paper, score with your digital score. Right.    Kristina Supler: So what does that mean? Super score    Davida Amkraut: to take different set test scores from different different tests that you've taken.    Susan Stone: And so you use the best math of the scores you've taken and you combine one.    Davida Amkraut: Yeah. Or you know a lot of schools have not even really come out and said if they're going to allow super scoring from the pen to paper tasked with the digital. So there's this whole unknown going on here. So a kid who, who took the SATs, who got like an 800 on English but got a 650 on math right now, if she wants to apply to Harvard, she has to go back and take the test.That 800 on the English might not ever be seen, because if they don't super score. I don't know if that made sense.    Susan Stone: Now that's great.   Kristina Supler:  Why, if most Harvard applicants were submitting the test score anyway, why why did Harvard announce this policy much less so late in the game? Like what was the reasoning behind it? If anyone knows?   Davida Amkraut: Well, there are some conspiracy theories out there that the College Board is smearing these schools to go back to,    Kristina Supler: Ahh okay.    Davida Amkraut: Right. That's not founded by anything, right? Like I'm just putting that out there, like, you know, we're wondering all of a sudden, you know, that digital S.A.T. has come out, right? And they're trying to drum up business, right?   They're there as much as they say they are a nonprofit. Right? And they have that .org or whatever they have next to their name. It's a business. And if people are not taking tests, they're going to lose their business. Right. And I think that they want to drum up business. From what I understand, in some schools, it's not the admission officers at the schools, at the colleges that decide whether or not testing should be reinstated its actually a faculty decision.   So maybe, perhaps the faculty is seeing not as many competitive candidates as or candidates now who are in their classrooms, who are not as competitive as their candidate, as their students from like 4 or 5 years ago. Right? So if the faculty is seeing that, then they're going to probably say, you know, we need higher caliber students like this is not, etc.    Susan Stone: Davida, can you circle back to what Christina asked you because she you really did.I know you partially answered it, but she asked a great question because every year now that I've done this three times, everyone says this was the hardest year. This was the hardest year to get kids.    Davida Amkraut: Bloodbath.    Susan Stone: It's a bloodbath like that every year. I hear this from parents tell us 24, was it really a bloodbath or were kids getting in just like they were every other year?   Davida Amkraut: I mean, the students that are at the school that I'm working at and my clients listen, we all have our kids all have a place to call home, right? I say that very confidently, where our school is a little bit more selective, that we're a little bit shocking. Some of them were like a Michigan not so shocking.They've been on the same trajectory for many years. I tell my students I was like, you can apply to Michigan, but don't count on it, right? Just don't count on it because there's something going on there with their numbers and how they spit things out, but don't count on it. Right. And there were superstars waitlisted. And that's the other thing that Michigan does that's not so kind is that they don't cut their kids loose.   Right? They don't cut these applicants loose. They waitlist them and they let them live in what we call purgatory. You know? And then kids get in in July and August, right. And then they lose their day. They have to make this big choice. They have to lose their deposit. Their other school scramble for a roommate, you know, is it really worth it?And I tell my students, cut bait like you are done with Michigan if you don't get in. If you're not the kind of kid that can pivot in a heartbeat, then it's not going to be a great place for you. You know? Why do that?    Kristina Supler: With respect to waitlists, what do you tell families in terms of in reality, how likely is a student to get admitted off of a waitlist?   Davida Amkraut: I tell them, pretend it didn't happen and I do. I say, you know, put a deposit, put a deposit, you know, and get excited for your other choice. Just get excited, embrace it. And if they get in, a lot of students decide not to take that, take that adamant off the waitlist. They decide not to because they've already been hyped up.They already found their roommate. They're already, you know, invested, which I think is a great thing. You know, because it's college. What you do when you get there, what you make of it when you get there. but circling back to Susan, your question about what do I advise my students to do? Right. And I think that's a conversation.We're still seeing a lot of kids getting in an early decision one, and early decision two. Right. financially, you know, if you're in a position to do that and you have, you know, that sort of relationship with a school and you're willing to do that, that's what we always say, you know, don't apply to certain schools. That's not like if you're not applying ed Right. So I'm, I have the stats up here for BU right now.    Susan Stone: Kristinas alma mater .    Kristina Supler: My alma mater,    Davida Amkraut: they had 79,000 applicants this year.    Kristina Supler: Is that all?    Davida Amkraut: But they did increase. They did increase their first year class size to 3300, which is 155 more seats than last year. Right. So, despite the fact that they have this larger class size, they only now there are a rate.Their admit rate is just 10.7%. View. So BU When I first started this, I'd say like seven, eight years ago they were 25, 30%. Right. and now they're they're almost in single digits.    Susan Stone: Who's going to BU you know, what's the profile?    Davida Amkraut: I think at the profile is very similar to a student who might be applying to, a northeastern, a George Washington, because these are kids who want a city school.it's not incredibly rah rah ish. I mean, you have a hockey, but that's really basically, that's what you have. And they're kids who are very I think that there are more independent thinkers because they are living in like a city. NYU is also I put that in that cohort also. So, you know, that sort of thing. the oh, you asked    Susan Stone: What are the up ad commers Davida. I know when my daughter went to northeastern, I didn't even know what northeastern was. And now it's the hot  school. so we already know northeastern is already up there with BU and George Washington. What do you see as the up and comer next wave hot school.    Kristina Supler: Good question.    Davida Amkraut: That's such a great question.I think that there are a lot of hidden gems, and I think that it's really hard to answer that question because it's like, I can say Fordham University, I think is going to be a hot school.    Kristina Supler: Really?    Davida Amkraut: yeah. Yeah,    Kristina Supler: I think, that used to be a safe school for students who, you know, wanted the Boston  college Georgetown experience, but y you but couldn't get in.Well, who wanted the Jesuit component? And then you go to Fordham.    Davida Amkraut: Yeah. And I think Fordham, I don't mark my words, but I think that they have they have two campuses. So you have the opportunity to have a traditional campus experience, which is in the Bronx, which is a gated campus. And you can also choose to live in Lincoln Center in New York City and live in a city campus.And they have a fabulous business program. It's in New York City, so, I'm going to say, I think Fordham, in terms of that piece, is going to be, you know, a school to watch out for. in terms of other schools that are hot. And, I mean, it just runs the gamut. You know, the we hear the same names over and over and over again.I think that for Out-of-staters, Ohio State is looking really great for a lot of people. You're going to see a lot more kids applying to like an Ohio State and Indiana. because those are a little bit less selective than, Michigan or Wisconsin. Boulder also will be I'll see. They're they're getting they're doing great. You know, those schools are doing great because they are taking the kids who are not getting into the Michigan and Wisconsin into their into their class    Kristina Supler: is bolder, getting more selective.   Davida Amkraut: I don't not yet. Not yet and not yet. It'll take some time. and there's also a very, very big school, so I don't think it'll be assault. It'll never hit the Michigan level. Then it'll probably hit, like, I would say, a Wisconsin or, or an Ohio State at some point, you know, because    Susan Stone: with 80,000 applications or even if it's 50,000 applications,    Kristina Supler: seriously, what's the difference?   Susan Stone: I there's no difference. What trends do you see? Does the Essay matter .    Davida Amkraut: Well, so Duke just announced Duke University just announced that they're actually moving that down in their priorities because of AI. Right. So Duke has that has announced formally that they are no longer scoring their essays as, as highly as they were. I think what always will matter the most is the rigor of the child's,curriculum.   Right. That is the grant. Yeah. And that is of   Susan Stone: The  transcript. You can't game a transcript     Davida Amkraut: Right. So I think that transcript is, is the going to be like, if you had a pizza pie, I'd say that's like 60% of the pizza pie. Really I do. Right. And it's not the transcript I took woodworking and got an A-plus or I took pottery and I got it. You know, it is part and    Kristina Supler: Both important classes, by the way.    Davida Amkraut:They are. But it is like we're even seeing now like AP, A, B and AP calc. Those are like, like 5 or 6 years ago. Those were the really, really hard AP math classes. Now schools are looking for AP multivariable right there, like for their engineering students. They are looking for AP multivariable.I don't even know what that is. Right.    Kristina Supler: I wouldn't stand a chance, but I, of course, would never. I have no business anywhere near an engineering thing.   Susan Stone: I want to challenge you on this, okay? Both Christine and I, we're both lawyers and we're both stronger in humanities. So are we going to get punished by a highly selective school if we didn't have high IP transcripts in the science and the math and the stems?   Davida Amkraut: No. Only if you're applying to a like a degree program as college, a college within years, they have engineering or math. Right now, if you're a humanities person, you're applying to a journalism program. They're not gonna care. So like if they want to see rigor, they're not gonna want to see the easiest math classes. But they'll understand that if you're taking, you know, APUSH. AP euro, AP lang, AP lit, and then you're just taking honors math. Totally fine.    Susan Stone: So how else can you stand out if it's not the essay anymore? Because I understand it's going to be with I impossible to distinguish essays.    Kristina Supler: I'm wondering about that. This issue of the essays, though, because of course, after the affirmative action ruling, there was a lot of discussion about how students can speak about various points in their personal lives that would be potentially relevant for consideration and mission in the essay. But now it's interesting. The point you point raised regarding Duke and the role of AI, which that's actually really fascinating. And so I'm just thinking about how you how students could navigate through, you know, these different how the landscape has changed.    Davida Amkraut: So I will say a few things about the AI essays. I've written 5 or 6 college essays on AI there. You can tell it's written by a bot. And that was with me going back and changing things and asking AI to do certain things and change things up. You it's it's crazy. Like there's no way I would let any students submit an essay like that. because it's it doesn't sound like a human's written. I'm just being completely honest with you.   Like, I've done it like. And I did it also with my letters of recommendation that I have to now write for my students at my school. I've learned things through a bot and there's no comparison there. Human element is is a big touch, I would say, for the race issue. we saw a lot of a lot of schools after Scotus announcement went and changed their supplemental questions to include a question about race or adversity in their supplemental questions. And for those kinds of questions, A.I you can't you can't write. You can't write a like that through AI. Right? So, I'd say I'd say we're going to I it's going to be here. I don't think it's kind of like if you're a smart person, you can you can see exactly what's written by AI and what's not.But the smarter the computer gets, right? And the more information the computer is going to have on essays. And I'm more than it's going to get smarter as we go along, for sure. University of Michigan Honors program just released their honors. Like they invite kids for their honors program. And they said, put an essay through through AI about answering this prompt and then tell me and then and then send that to us and tell us what's missing from the essay.So they're using that. They are. So they're Uising AI there. No, the kids are using it. But then they're asking, okay, what did I miss? Like what? Tell us about that experience. Right. So it's actually very clever. So I'm wondering like you know what other schools with out of the fall. Of course with that, you know, we won't know the supplements for quite a while now. So    Susan Stone: other than transcript. So you rank transcript first because I've always thought that. Right. What would you say is next?    Davida Amkraut: every school has different priorities, but I would say what would be next is, extracurricular activities. If there's testing at this child has testing, I would say that would be next. Right. If they're submitting testing, then I would say, extracurricular activities. Then I would say letter of recommendations. And then I would say essays, but letter recommendations and essays probably are maybe equal. Every every school is very different. And, yeah. So that's what I would say. But the extracurricular activities, you know, showing what the let the students doing and they're not just going home and watching Netflix and playing, you know, video games is going to be really important.   Kristina Supler: Are all extracurriculars created equal? I mean, what would you say in terms of if a student is, you know, let's say you have that child who's just interested in everything and wants to be in this club and play that sport and have a job and volunteer and student council, so on and so forth. I mean, wonderful, but at the same time, how would you what are your thoughts or what advice do you have for families that have to sort of focus or call through the extracurriculars,    Susan Stone: breath or death   Davida Amkraut: Yeah. So I say be authentic to who you are. If you are doing all those extracurriculars because you are genuinely interested in all these different things, do it right, because then that will also be reflective on your transcript. It will reflective from your letters of recommendation. If you're doing all these activities because you think you're just checking off boxes. Oh, I'm doing a journalism one here. I'm doing a math one here. I'm doing an engineering one here that'll check off all these boxes and they'll look well rounded. I don't think that's going to be super authentic. And if it won't, it'll resonate with the application. and there are two schools of thought. People are like, you want to create a profile and you want to make sure if you're an engineering student, then you are going to do everything engineering, you know, in your extracurriculars. I don't necessarily buy into that so much. I think that authentically, kids should be able to allow to be explore what they're doing. And they're 14, 15 when this all begins. my advice is pay to play. Activities never mean much. Which and I say when I say pay to play. I spent the summer at Harvard with a two week course on X, Y, Z. You know those? That's what we call on the college world pay to play. And   Susan Stone: I painted murals in a third world country.    Davida Amkraut: Right. So those are manufactured those are manufactured experiences. And then there are the pay to play where you send your kids off and you are going to say, oh, they're going to, you know, be on this campus and it's going to look great. I mean, scooping ice cream looks much better than being on a college campus. You know,    Kristina Supler: let me ask you, though, about being authentic. Conversely, conversely, do the child who's interested in everything give the child who's just all in on my life passion is crocheting? Should parents say, okay, that's wonderful that you crochet, but maybe think about some other activities? Or I mean, how do you when you have a child who's laser focused on, a sport, a hobby, an instrument, whatever it may be,    Susan Stone: Unless they're going to do something cool with crocheting, right?    Davida Amkraut: Yeah. I mean, I think that. Right. So. Okay, if they're if their goal is maybe to be in fashion. Right. Okay. So it's amazing and it's amazing. And then let's try to see like entrepreneurial stuff going on out there. Or maybe there's marketing or maybe there's like you know, maybe you want to take some Coursera classes on fashion marketing and then also babysit and also peer tutor in your class or, you know, or, you know, crochet, teach, teach other people how to crochet or crochet for, you know, for babies that are in need. Right. So like, you can kind of take that, that sort of that passion, which is an overused word in the college world, right? And sort of infused into different areas, you realize that are meaningful.    Kristina Supler: So how does that laser focused interest translate to your college education, but also maybe ways to, you know, iterations of broadening that interest in other respects.So like the babysitting or so on and so forth, that that was good inside there.   Davida Amkraut: So what you tell me,    Susan Stone: I think you just comment. That was a really good insight. But I do want to go back to the pay to play because just because something doesn't have great college resume value, I don't think it's a reason to not do it if you have another valuable course.   Davida Amkraut: Of course   Susan Stone: Right. So my number two, who you know, and you were his college counselor privately went to Berkeley one summer and he today will say that was a formative experience for him, that summer experience that he reflects back and feel so grateful that he went. I mean, I don't think we should always pick things because of will it look good for college? No, it won't do something else.    Davida Amkraut: Right? So he might not have even reported that experience at Berkeley. Do you know what I'm saying? Like that    Susan Stone: he didn't    Davida Amkraut: Right.    Kristina Supler: And that's interesting.    Susan Stone: I was a pay to play. He did not everything. What we did his job right.   Davida Amkraut:  I mean, it could have also been like, okay, that could also been a little bit of a touch point for an essay. Right. Or you know, but you only have ten activities to report, period. Right. So you want to make sure that you're reporting the ones that mean the most to you and that, you know, you feel authentically you. And I always tell my students, if you did it and you really, really glean so much from it, then put it down for sure. Right? But let's also do the description so that the reader understands why that experience was so important to you and what you know, what it did to sort of that formative experience that sort of I    Susan Stone: Is it hard internally. Now write those letters of recommendation.    Davida Amkraut: Oh my God, it's so I can't even tell you what I have to do. Like. Right. So I'm going the and this is and I and I also feel pain for these other counselors who don't have this luxury of writing periods in, in their schedule. Right? I have writing periods in my schedule because I'm working at a private school. Right. and I remember when I worked at Laurel, they had days where they didn't even come to school, the counselors, because they were home on their writing days, and they were sitting there and they have all, you know, they have all the transcripts out there So what I do with my students is I meet them 2 or 3 times, you know, form a rapport with them. And then I also go back into their anecdotal and I grab sentences or anecdotes from their teachers, and I craft a whole narrative that, you know, encompasses this kid. You know, a page, a page and a half long and, sort of represent the student. And it's painful that, you know, other counselors don't have that time that, you know, those resources. Some teachers don't even write an external site where they're just literally filling in, you know, bubbles up, you know, comes to class, you know,    Susan Stone: so schools do better, have better relationships with the colleges than others.    Davida Amkraut: So I will I will say that's that's like we're seeing that fade a lot.Like, right. Brandeis University, that used to be a school that would do advocacy calls. And they said, no, we're not doing them this year. Brown used to do advocacy calls. They said no    Kristina Supler: Why is it fading?   Davida Amkraut:  because of the inequity.    Kristina Supler: That makes sense.    Davida Amkraut: Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense. I mean it makes complete sense. Barnard also did it. They they they told us this year I mean this was also my first year on staff. But so I can see the counselors, they're like oh my gosh look we don't have that Intel right. And I'm like, well I feel like that's that's good.    Susan Stone: Well, I mean this has been amazing and it always is. And I'm so happy to see you. I know we spoke last week. Do you have any lasting thought regarding 2025 to say to parents, those juniors.   Kristina Supler: What wisdom would you like to leave?   Davida Amkraut: I would like to leave that name brands or not, that there are more to the name brands that really I am a true believer is that college is what you make of it when you get there, right? And you will bloom where you were planted and that you should not. You should look beyond the name brand, right? You should definitely look.There are hidden gems out there that will take care of your child, that will take care of you and really, really value, you know, the students that will be coming to their campuses.   Susan Stone: I felt that way last weekend at Ringling College. It's very small, but I felt like when I walked on this campus, I didn't even know about the school, but I felt like I found a hidden gem for my daughter to really flourish as an artist.   Davida Amkraut: And for. Yeah, yeah. And the other thing I would say is fall in love with more than one school, right? You're not marrying the school for, you know, fall in love with three, four different schools, one a far reach one, you know, a target, one to, like, fall in love, you know, and then you'll.   Kristina Supler: My mother says it's always good to have options to be.   Susan Stone: You know, it was a pleasure. I just love talking to you. And I miss you. So it's great to see you. All right. Take care. Bye.    Kristina Supler: Thank you.    Thanks for listening to Real Talk with Susan and Kristina. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show so you never miss an episode and leave us a review so other people can find the content we share here. You can follow us on Instagram. Just search our handle @stonesupler and for more resources, visit us online at https://studentdefense.kjk.com/   Thank you so much for being a part of our real talk community. We'll see you next time.  

Students sometimes enjoy cuddling, but innocent acts can sometimes lead to serious Title IX cases. These situations are more common than you might expect. Join Susan and Kristina in this episode of Real Talk as they discuss common pitfalls, focusing on important aspects like communication, conversation, and consent. Tune in for essential insights, and be sure to share this information with your students.   LINKS MENTIONED IN THE SHOW: https://studentdefense.kjk.com/   TRANSCRIPT: Susan Stone: Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Kristina Supler. We are full time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real candid conversations.   Susan Stone: Nice to see you on this dreary, rainy day.    Kristina Supler: Indeed, it is.    Susan Stone: It is. Well, we're going to talk about something that's actually good to do on a rainy day.    Kristina Supler: Ooh, tell me more. What could that be?    Susan Stone: Cuddling.    Kristina Supler: Who doesn't love cuddling?    Susan Stone: My gosh. You know what? I'm mourning the fact that my youngest is about to go to college. And we talked about this on prior podcasts, but do you remember we used to have younger kids. But back in the day.    Kristina Supler: My kids love to CUDDLE Yeah,    Susan Stone: There's nothing like that. Cuddling up a little kid, especially on a rainy morning.   Susan Stone: Couldn't agree more.   Susan Stone: I love it.    Kristina Supler: Well, why are you talking about cuddling today, Susan? Do I go with this?   Susan Stone: Well, we're going to get there because, as you know, nobody sees us and things until something goes wrong. And what is that saying? Everything's fine till somebody gets poked in the eye. Do you remember that thing?    Kristina Supler: Yes.    Susan Stone: Well, we're going to talk about cuddling going wrong. But first, let's just talk about why do we cuddle? I mean, I was doing a little research on cuddling and did you know that cuddling produces oxytocin and basically makes you feel good and safe?   Kristina Supler: Well, that's interesting because I suppose and you know, you're the special ed wiz, if you will, is it could one argue that cuddling is kind of like a form of O.T. in a way, occupational therapy or stimulating you in some way?    Susan Stone: Well, we know it improves sleep. There are some studies out there that says it actually boosts the immune system and it, believe it or not, lowers blood pressure. That's crazy, isn't it?    Kristina Supler: Now that I didn't see that one coming, I'm just thinking about like some of our little kids and people with sensitivities to touch and touch can be a good thing. And also maybe something that can be triggering.    Susan Stone: Yeah, exactly. Well, I would say that in early childhood, cuddling definitely leads to attachment parenting. You really form bonds.   Kristina Supler: Well, that like when you first have your baby and they want to put the baby on your chest for the. What does that kangaroo care? What was it called?   Susan Stone:  I think it's kangaroo care. It's been a minute   Kristina Supler: and they have had a baby.    Susan Stone: Yeah, but I think your point is well taken that some children actually are averse to touch, you know, like that feeling. But most people do. And a little simple hug or cuddle is wonderful for parents. And I'm a big fan of parents being physically affectionate with children. But.   Kristina Supler: but there's always a but    Susan Stone: but we're not here to talk about parents snuggling their babies,    Kristina Supler: I think as part of our podcast. It's funny, every episode there's sort of a theme of, in reality, things that are nice. Most of the time innocent sure and then put them on a college campus and the title nine world. And of course, there's always room for things to go wrong. So are we talking about cuddling in the context of Title Nine today?    Susan Stone: We are. Because one person's innocent, platonic, asexual cuddling can be another person's prelude to a hookup.   Kristina Supler: Indeed, indeed. And that actually makes me think we've had over the years we've had quite a few cases that are sort of rooted in, I don't know, cuddling going wrong, if you will, though I think it probably depends on who you ask. Right?   Susan Stone: Well, I just learned that there is a definitional difference between cuddling and snuggling.    Kristina Supler: Now this is totally new to me.Tell me more. I'm very interested.    Susan Stone: Okay. I read by Rabbi Google. You know, the go to source of all things.    Kristina Supler: When you're done, I'm going to tell you something that I just came across on Rabbi Google.    Susan Stone: Okay, good. So cuddling his arms around someone and snuggling is rubbing up and wiggling against a person.    Kristina Supler: Okay, that makes sense.   Susan Stone: It does?   Kristina Supler: Yeah.    Susan Stone: How do you think it makes sense? Supler    Kristina Supler: Because snuggling. It makes me think about, like, getting cozy and, like, under a blanket. And you're sort of, I don't know, inching up and just, like, being warm. And as I'm saying this, I'm realizing I don't even I don't know, it just makes sense to me that one's different.   Susan Stone: Well, so maybe we're not here really to talk about cuddling. Maybe we're here to talk about snuggling when that goes wrong,    Kristina Supler: Perhaps. But you reminded me, actually, not too long ago, I saw this headline about how in Manhattan, because of course, you can find anything in Manhattan, there are actually    Susan Stone: I love the Big Apple    Kristina Supler: professional cuddling services where people charge $150 an hour to cuddle in a platonic way because people are seeking out like that touch therapy thing.   Which made me think of the OT question I asked you earlier. How about that though? Truly, anything you want can be found in New York.    Susan Stone: It can be. But let's go back. And that's interesting. It may be kind of creepy. I don't know how I feel about it, but let's go back to college, because in college there are people who like to have what they call cuddle buddies.   Kristina Supler: Sure. And I think that from the perspective of Title nine, how can things go wrong? I mean, it's really in essence, any sort of touching or physical contact, if it's unwelcome, could perhaps give rise to a claim for sexual harassment.   Susan Stone: So let's set the stage for our listeners. It's late. You've already gone out. The bars have closed.So it's what, 2 a.m.    Kristina Supler: sure. I guess it depends what state you're in, but I think two AMs a reasonable time.    Susan Stone: Okay. And you know, nothing good happens at 2 a.m..    Kristina Supler: Nothing.    Susan Stone: Nothing. So it's 2 a.m. and you decide to watch a little Netflix and chill for your evening out. Maybe you've had a beer or two or ten and you decide to cuddle and accidentally you might even fall asleep and or not. And the cuddling to one person, they're tired. They want to go to sleep, but to the other person they get aroused, duu duu dun   Kristina Supler: Sure. I mean, I think one could argue that that is a natural consequence of cuddling    Susan Stone: and a hand might wander.    Kristina Supler: It's possible,    Susan Stone: and a hand might wander without consent.    Kristina Supler: Indeed.    Susan Stone: And there's your title nine.    Kristina Supler: Yeah. I mean, the whole at the heart of the Title nine analysis was the issue of unwelcomeness. And then also, you know, a conversation. It makes me think Conversations we often have with our students of any age is sort of impact versus intent, you know? But I didn't mean for anything, you know, to be upsetting or offensive, but it was received that way by someone else. And so what do you do with that? And that's really, in essence, what all of our Title nine cases are about, cause I don't think anyone ever says, I intentionally did X, Y, Z to hurt someone. It's always I didn't mean to or something was misunderstood or misconstrued. And then you have the, you know, the consequences of whatever the circumstance was. And that's often what we're navigating through is sort of the the gray.    Susan Stone: Well, because the definition of content send can be words or actions. And so what is an action? I thought we were cuddling. I thought we were getting closer. I thought you also were romantically interested in me. And so I thought it was a natural move on my part to move my hand. And the other person's thinking, wait, you didn't even talk to me? But that's not the definition of consent. It's words or actions. And I think that's where the confusion comes from.    Kristina Supler: Well, and I'm going to say this, that, you know, sort of a prevailing viewpoint might be that, well, come on, please. Everyone knows that cuddling is just sort of a gateway to a hookup. How would you respond to that?    Susan Stone: I don't even think that's true because as we started our whole podcast, parents cuddle children, but as we have worked our way through this issue, I think the confusion comes from the difference between cuddling and snuggling. And I think that college students don't spend enough time as they're creating these cuddle buddies to determine, is it truly platonic?   How do you know that you might feel platonic, and the other person might actually have feelings, and the cuddling or snuggling enhances those feelings.    Kristina Supler: So, I hear you. But then I guess let me ask you this. It sorts of circles back to what I very in artfully tried to define before the difference between cuddling and snuggling. If you're snuggling.How would you define the two? Because if you're saying one is more, it sounds like you're saying one is okay and one can be problematic. I mean, you try to define the difference.    Susan Stone: Well, I like the definition I gave you. And first of all, both are okay as long as everybody's on the same page.   Kristina Supler: Right. Consent.    Susan Stone: Consent. It always comes down to consent. I don't think that snuggling is appropriate without conversation.    Kristina Supler: Yeah,    Susan Stone: and it's certainly not appropriate. And many, many contexts. It is, to me, a boundary violation to rub your body against someone without a conversation.    Kristina Supler: Agree. Agree. There needs to be a conversation. And you know, that makes me think as well that, you know, certainly, as you've pointed out correctly, most school policies indicates consent and again in Title nine world requires it can be given through words or actions. But I think, you know, from a let's put a lawyer head on from a best practices perspective, we really do encourage all of our students. And when we talk, we sort of make the point that the safest way forward is to have a clear, explicit conversation. Are you okay if we, you know, fill in the blank, whatever it is, to just have a clear understanding of what the boundary is, what a person is okay with, and perhaps not okay with.   Susan Stone: Let's get a little embarrassing here, can we?    Kristina Supler: Sure.    Susan Stone: Sometimes the body does what the body wants to do, even if your mind says something different.    Kristina Supler: You talk about involuntary   Susan Stone: erections.    Kristina Supler: Sure.    Susan Stone: Okay. Now I do not have a penis. I am a female. You know. The penis is going to do what the penis wants to do. Supler.    Kristina Supler: Tell me more.Where are we going with this?    Susan Stone: I can envision a scenario where there is cuddling or snuggling and a male gets a hard on. It can happen easily.    Kristina Supler: It could happen.    Susan Stone: And that's really embarrassing. What? What should the guy do? I feel like I'm Howard Stern talking about this. Really? Well, what should happen?   Kristina Supler: I mean, it can be embarrassing for the male.It could be whoever is the other person participating in the    Susan Stone: male or female    Kristina Supler: Male or female. It can make that person. They might like it, but also can make them feel really, really uncomfortable. And then what? What do you do?    Susan Stone: I don't know. Should they get. Should the person with the erection just get out of bed and go into the bathroom? I don't know.    Kristina Supler: I don't know either. And I feel like really delve into this topic. We need the male perspective because we're both females, but.    Susan Stone: Well, no, I. I'm married. Married? We get this.    Kristina Supler: Yeah,   Susan Stone: we both have raised sons.    Kristina Supler: So, the question is    Susan Stone: not that I've talked about this with my son. Everyone out there, I want to clarify. I have never discussed this topic with my child.    Kristina Supler: So, the question is, could that be a title nine violation?    Susan Stone: Yeah, it could be in today's crazy world. But how unfair is that?    Kristina Supler: I totally agree. I totally agree. And I think that, you know, it sort of gets back to this issue of the importance of students having    Susan Stone: self-awareness,    Kristina Supler: self-awareness, but also the ability to and we talk about this all the time, the ability to have difficult conversations is like, this is awkward. This would be totally awkward to talk about with someone you don't even really know that well, but like, Hey, I don't like that I'm going to go. Or I mean, because I think the worst way to handle it is everyone's awkward and uncomfortable and there's no conversation. And then for days, the interaction is being dissected and analyzed and then outside voices sort of filter, and the narrative gets rewritten about what happens.   Susan Stone: I'm going to challenge you on something,    Kristina Supler: okay? Please do.   Susan Stone: You're a big fan. As am I, on conversation.   Kristina Supler: I am. I'm a talker. You're a talker.    Susan Stone: But you know what? Some things you need a little self-awareness. I don't think. And everyone, I would love for you to respond. Send us your comments. I want to know what you think out there. But if you're really into someone and you secretly like them, can you platonically cuddle? I put that out there. I say, No,    Kristina Supler: I don't think you can either. That's actually I agree. I don't think you can. I think it's inevitable where where it's going to end up. But are you. So let me ask you.   Susan Stone: So cuddle Without talking to the person and saying, hey, maybe this is where the conversation comes in.I don't think I can do that. I don't think I can get in bed with you in. And let's face it, how big are college beds?    Kristina Supler: I mean, there aren't, like, extra long singles twins, right? Yeah. I remember going to bed with me and. And buying extra long sheets because, like, that's what you needed for some reason.    Susan Stone: Yeah. You still need those extra-long sheets. But what I'm saying is I don't see how someone can platonically Cuddle. And if you're male, not get erect. Or how about this? A woman? We females get aroused too.    Kristina Supler: I've been told    Susan Stone: I've been told. I heard from a friend. You know, that's not a natural place to put yourself if you want to remain platonic.So I say a little self-awareness goes a long way.    Kristina Supler: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think also, though, there's you.   Susan Stone: What do you mean? You don't know. That's ridiculous. You do know if you like, someone don't hop in the old bed with them without thinking that, you know, the juices are going to flow.    Kristina Supler: How about this? Cuddle or no cuddle? You're alone with someone at 2:00 in the morning watching TV. Like, come on. I mean, I think that, too. It could sort of be a situation where if we're really talking about self-awareness, I don't think it's limited to cuddling. I think it should be, you know, sort of broad into just being mindful of the situations in which we find ourselves. Can you if you have a crush on someone and you just want to watch, I don't know, a show together on Netflix at 2:00 in the morning, You know, one could argue that that's sort of also a recipe to test limits and see where things go.   Susan Stone: Drunk or not drunk?   Kristina Supler: Well, let's say both. Right. Because, I mean, either way, alcohol, we've had plenty of cases that are, you know, cuddling, touching, gone wrong with no alcohol involved. I mean, it's not let's face it, alcohol is involved in many, if not most of our cases, but certainly not all. Certainly not all.    Susan Stone: You know what else could happen? As I'm thinking about this, you could be thinking that you really are just friends. But sometimes you awake the dragon.    Kristina Supler: I mean, I just    Susan Stone: Feelings happen.   Kristina Supler: Feelings do happen. But there's a difference between feelings happening. And then, like, I don't know, I just struggle with the idea of and maybe I'm being to I don't know, traditional in my views, but like platonic cuddling between a male and a female at 2:00 in the morning, I don't know that it's possible.I really don't.    Susan Stone: Yeah, I'm with you. And I also wonder about those New York Cutlers. Do they really just cuddle?    Kristina Supler: Well, I mean, according to the news article, yes, but I mean, I'm with you and that I'm very circumspect. And then he also does wonder about germs and whatnot. But supposedly there's like good sanitation measures in places.    Susan Stone: We're getting so far off my gosh, I'm embarrassed for ourselves. But look, there is a lot of health benefits to cuddling and you can feel lonely in college and there's nothing wrong when the terms are clear. Yes, I will follow Suplers ideas, conversations, key. It can be a really nice way of connecting, forging bonds, getting good sleep, lowering your blood pressure and boosting your immunity. As long as everybody stays on the same page. I just worry for those little accidental erections and things that might go bump in the night accidentally.    Kristina Supler: Accidental erections. Okay, well, hopefully we've given our listeners some food for thought today. This is just sort of a fun and lighthearted discussion. But I mean, in all seriousness, we do see plenty of matters that, you know, involve components of cuddling and miscommunication.   Susan Stone: Yeah, and it's not funny when you have a Title nine case. It's embarrassing. our clients who come into our office or we zoom in with their mortified. It's awful. It's just awful.   Kristina Supler: It's awful for everyone involved and    Susan Stone: Also awful for the recipient. Who thinks that way.    Kristina Supler: I was going to say it's awful as well for the person who maybe dozed off and then they wake up and are like, Whoa, what's going on? So, you know, I mean, again, I think that, you know,    Susan Stone: No one wins    Kristina Supler: No One wins    Susan Stone: Or everyone wins, depending on what happens. Right.    Kristina Supler: Well, should colleges really be in the mix of passing through these scenarios? I'm not sure about that one. But under the regs, under the current title nine regulations are policies. They are. And so it is an issue that Title nine offices across the country are navigating.And so, you know, bottom line, parents out there, listeners, these two are topics to, you know, put on your students radar.    Susan Stone: Talk about cuddling versus snuggling. Stay connected if you would like. We'd love to hear from you and see what you think. And let's keep the conversation going.    Kristina Supler: Until next time. Thanks for listening to Real Talk with Susan and Kristina. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show so you never miss an episode and leave us a review so other people can find the content we share here. You can follow us on Instagram. Just search our handle @stonesupler and for more resources, visit us online at https://studentdefense.kjk.com/   Thank you so much for being a part of our real talk community. We'll see you next time.  

In this week's episode of 'Real Talk,' Susan and Kristina uncover the secret to their successful partnership. Join them for a hilarious exploration of their working relationship, their practice,and the valuable lessons learned during their nearly decade-long collaboration. So grab a cup of coffee and join them for a candid conversation about what makes their professional bond so special.   LINKS MENTIONED IN THE SHOW: https://studentdefense.kjk.com/  https://www.amazon.com/Yes-Your-Kid-Parents-Todays/dp/1637743807  https://www.instagram.com/stonesupler/   TRANSCRIPT: Susan Stone: Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Kristina Supler. We are full time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real candid conversations.   Kristina Supler: Susan ever since the Super Bowl.   Susan Stone: Oh no, oh no. Don't say it.   Kristina Supler: I have a secret guilty pleasure. I confess to you and our listeners out there like,   Susan Stone: Oh my God here, it's coming.   Kristina Supler: But I am totally, completely obsessed with the dunking Dunkin Donuts commercials, the Ben Affleck Matt Damon commercials. Did you see those during the Super Bowl?   Susan Stone: Okay. Not only did I see them, but I saw us in Ben and Matt.   Kristina Supler: That's what I thought.   Susan Stone: I know.   Kristina Supler: What is about those two. I was so drawn to it. I can't stop watching when they're there walking in. We got touchdown, Tommy. On the key.   Susan Stone: You love that one.   Kristina Supler: I love that one.   Susan Stone: Touchdown Tommy on the keys. Okay, Because here's what it is. They've been together a long time working and kind of separating.Yeah. We're not childhood friends, but.    Kristina Supler: No, we're not.   Susan Stone:  But it's been.   Kristina Supler:  It's been a minute.   Susan Stone: It's been a second. Collaborating,   Kristina Supler: Creativity   Susan Stone: Creativity. And, you know, they drive each other crazy, which we do sometimes.   Kristina Supler: We do. We do. But there's humor there. I can't even tell you how much it made me laugh when Matt Damon looks at Ben Affleck and he's like, how do you like them donuts?   Susan Stone: Oh my God.   Kristina Supler: I'm so sorry.   Susan Stone: Okay. The line I loved is sometimes it's really hard to be your friend or remember, I would do anything for you. This is anything. And I know those moments because in our working relationship, in our friendship, we ask an absolute a lot from each other.   Kristina Supler: Oh yeah. It's it's really it's been it's been quite a journey we've been on for the past. I don't even know how long it's been.   Susan Stone: for the listeners out there. And those of you who are in Greek organizations, I hard rushed Sue Blur to be my law partner. I remember saying, Join me in this practice. And you're like, Well, I still want my criminal defense and you still do.   Kristina Supler: I still do. You do. I do.   Susan Stone: But mostly we represent students out there and we do handle a lot of criminal defense and we deal do with that. We still deal with sex issues   Kristina Supler: all day, every day.   Susan Stone:  It was a hard sell getting you in, but we made it and it's been actually almost ten years.   Kristina Supler: So why are we talking about this today? Why what is the point of this episode of this topic? Are our listeners are like what we're gone from done kings and Matt Damon and Ben Affleck to to the two of you are   Susan Stone: Dunking's or dukin?   Kristina Supler:  it's done Kings Kings because they're kings I swear folks she's  really smart   Susan Stone: I just feel like what Dunkin Donuts like   Kristina Supler:  Yeah it is but in the commercial they were getting creative. Okay okay,.   Susan Stone: Guys that's what life is like in the office and why I do   Kristina Supler: And that by the way I knew when I met her I said, she's the one for me.   Susan Stone: Absolutely. Guys, please stop. I'm menopausal I'll pee in my pants. Okay, so how. Here's the thing, guys.   Kristina Supler: For real.   Susan Stone: For real.   Kristina Supler: In all seriousness,   Susan Stone: In all seriousness, we do handle your serious legal issues, but it's hard work and you really have to grind a lot of hours and there's got to be a lot of trust in the person you work with. And there's got a lot there's got to be a lot of synergy. And I think that we're doing this episode to show that we really are more than law partners, that we will be like being together.   Kristina Supler: Absolutely. This is sort of a behind the scenes episode, if you will. And I mean, I think that aside from, you know, our spouses and significant others and friends and family member, people who know us really closely, some people are surprised to hear and learn of how much time we spend together. And we always say, well, it's good thing we really like each other because our work is grueling. There's so many hours and traveling and dealing with tough topics. It's important that we have a really good relationship with each other to get through it all.   Susan Stone: Yeah, we don't get enough time being buds. We try, I agree with, but we really don't because at the end of the day we want to go home and be with our friends and our family and get a little break from each other.But it has almost been ten years.   Kristina Supler:  I know that's crazy to think about. So let's go back in the time machine and you tell our listeners, take it back a little. Austin Powers Yeah, How? Let's talk about how we met. Like what was our first encounter?   Susan Stone: We met, Yeah, Yeah. So it's funny, I was a working at my old law firm and Cristina's boss at her firm actually merged into us for a hot sec.   Kristina Supler: That's right.   Susan Stone: Hot, sec    Kristina Supler: hot sec. I just had my second child.   Susan Stone:  I can't believe that   Kristina Supler: lot of professional transition going on, but, you know,   Susan Stone: and we're talking high school for your oldest, and that little one is about to become his own young king in the theater.   Kristina Supler: Yes. He is a man of the art. Yeah, But yeah, I mean, I remember it was like 2013 ish, maybe even further back than that, b   Susan Stone: But a little bit closer to when the Obama regulations came out in 2011.That's scary guys.   Kristina Supler: I know. And I remember I'm plugging away doing my thing. Susan's in her world of what At that point, general litigation in special education.   Susan Stone: Well, and I was in the beginning of starting my own practice, and I knew I didn't want to do it alone. I knew I needed a buddy with me because it's just let's face it, it's more fun. Life is more fun with a friend. And we had a project, a case came in that required both skill sets.   Kristina Supler: I remember I got a call for a student at a very reputable university in the area, very infamous school in terms of Title nine. And I got the call saying, Hey, do you do title 9 work? My son's got this issue.He's been accused of sexual assault. And at the time I vaguely knew what Title nine was, but I knew that I knew sex, sexual assault. Right. And so, like,   Susan Stone: just came out so awful. It's like you just keep it all, you   Kristina Supler: I  know, the how you try to avoid the the puns. They're just right there and you fall into   Susan Stone: Keep it clean. Keep it clean This is a family show.   Kristina Supler: But I remember talking to you and saying, Susan, I have this case. I feel like you would be, you know, good person to partner with on it. And you're like, Yeah, I've done some of those as well and the rest is history.   Susan Stone: And you know what's interesting to talk about, when we get tense at those moments of tension, it's usually fear.   Kristina Supler: I agree.   Susan Stone: When we have fear   Kristina Supler:  uncertainty, fear   Susan Stone: or exhaustion.   Kristina Supler: That too,   Susan Stone: I do have to share a story with what a good law partner Kristina supler is. And what a good friend. Supler is. my gosh. Two weeks ago I got hit with the virus. It was one of the nastiest viruses in my life. I will say for me, it was worse than COVID. I was.   Kristina Supler: You were so sick. I don't. I don't know the last time I've seen you that ill. I mean you were writhing in pain. You were literally lying on the floor of your office. Susan Stone: yeah. Guys, I was in a dress with heels,   Kristina Supler: a Prada dress, I might add.   Susan Stone: It was a beautiful vintage Prada, and I had a very nice bike.Black heel, little Lu bu little red showing on the bottom. Loved it. And I was in so much pain and I was sweating. And we actually had a very important 3:00 meeting and I had to be there. I laid on my floor because I was not going to miss that meeting. No holding my stomach got up, turn my camera on and would turn my camera off to puke.It was so ugly. And then you drove me home and I wore to Mass. And then you got sick. So that's just like crazy,   Kristina Supler: I'm still on antibiotic .    Susan Stone: Just the gift that keeps on giving.   Kristina Supler: That's right.   Susan Stone: So, what we get out of it is really important. I think the feeling of you always have my back and I always have your back. And   Kristina Supler:  Absolutely. Because, I mean, so much of our work is rooted in absolute uncertainty and there's very little like black and white, you know, clear answers for our cases. And so you're sort of working in a lot of gray and working off of instinct, and sometimes you're not sure what to do. And clients are upset. Everyone's upset. It's tough emotionally. And it's just it's so rewarding to have someone there by your side go through it with you.   Susan Stone: You do take it for granted. You forget, my gosh, that's your reality. But you know, look, we see clients at our worst and people say and do things when they're in crisis that they would regret later or Yeah, they feel like I've got to take it out on somebody or, you know, not everybody's so nice. Newsflash, I tell that to my kids all the time. Not everybody's nice.     Kristina Supler: This is one of life's big lessons for many of our clients, unfortunately.   Susan Stone: Interesting that I want to go back to Matt and Ben. Yeah, I feel like I know you, Matt and Ben. If you're out there listening, check that out. And Ben. Yeah. Do you think they're going to listen to this podcast?   Kristina Supler: I'm sure they will. And they probably already know me because I went to Boston University and they're Boston people. So like, I feel a connection, right?   Susan Stone: Okay, that's true. Yeah. Yeah. Hello. And maybe J.Lo   Kristina Supler: Do you feel a connection with J.Lo.   Susan Stone: Absolutely. Not even a little connection, but. But I love you. I love you out there. But we have sort of merged because I would say when we began, you were always much more structured. So I would want it. When we started podcasting, I was podcast and you'd be like, we've got to get ready. No, no, no, we've got to do it now. I think now I take a little more time and you've got a lot more of that spontaneity. And we just over the years, I think, honestly, ages mellowed me, and you've gotten a little more spark maybe because you're coming into your own.   Kristina Supler: That's it. That's right. It's funny you always say we're just like an old married couple. But it's true   Susan Stone: It's True.   Kristina Supler: It really is true. We can finish each other's sentences. We do mind melding. Remember back in the day when we did improv lessons together,   Susan Stone: Do you think Matt and Ben did improv to get ready for the dunking? Is it really dunking? I'm stuck on it. I can't get off of it. Guys who knew I like that you're such a moron    Kristina Supler: Anyone who watched the commercials. But that's okay.   Susan Stone: I was very focused on Tom Brady. Okay.    Kristina Supler: Touchdown, Tom. Tommy on the Keys.   Susan Stone: He's kind of cute.   Kristina Supler:  That's my line. I love that line,   Susan Stone: but I can't let it go anyways.   Kristina Supler:  So let's talk about.I mean, why we get this question a lot. How do you do what you do? Why do you do what you do and how do you answer that?   Susan Stone: it's a higher calling for me.   Kristina Supler: I totally agree,   Susan Stone: because I'm sure that I would be doing a little better if we had gone into corporate law or tax or one of those like non-sex things that, you know, people do in big firms. But we get the privilege of helping people at their lowest point in their life. And we have the privilege when you are being accused or you've gone through something on a college campus, it does feel life altering and it is life altering. And to see younger people through the other side is an honest calling and a privilege. And it's exhausting. It's it's been life changing for me and it's given meaning to my career.   Kristina Supler:  I would say for myself, I mean, I agree it's something you're called to do. But also for me, I would add that there's just something I think it probably does go back to my prior criminal defense roots and that I just can't help but root for the underdog. There's someone in a room full of people and no one else likes them, wants to talk to them. People are giving them the ugly. I like. That's the person I just gravitate towards and I want to help. And I think particularly with students and these crazy, awful rules and regulations that surround these big court proceedings and then other campus conduct cases, watching young adults in these awful moments and they have to advocate for themselves. They have to essentially be lawyers. And they're not you know, they're like literally 12. It's it's heartbreaking. And I just feel so passionate about helping these people get through these awful moments in their lives.   Susan Stone: And you like talking about sex   Kristina Supler: I love them. I might. There's something I truly enjoy talking to teens and college kids about their social lives, their personal lives, sex.Sure. I mean, it's so funny, though, because I remember back in the day when we first started and we'd sort of have this stiffness, no pun intended, to talk about   Susan Stone: I don't believe you, just said that   Kristina Supler: to talking about, though, you know, the sexual encounter where things went wrong, so on and so forth. And, you know, pre-COVID days obviously before there were virtual meetings and sitting in the conference room and having these terrified kids look at us and like, my gosh, how can I see these these body part words in front of these older women? But I don't know. There's just something I think we're both very comfortable with the topic,   Susan Stone: guys. College kids still very few use the proper body parts. We still hear boobies and titties instead of breasts. It's true. We do.   Kristina Supler: It is true. And aside from slang terms, I think many of them just like literally don't know the right names for parts   Susan Stone: that's read our book.Yes, Your kid read the book. That's right.   Kristina Supler: Going with that. How did how did you read my mind News out there to check out. Yes. Your kid.   Susan Stone: So, I want to end with sharing the best skill I've learned from you, and that is how to deliver really difficult news to people in a way that's kind, firm and compassionate. Because in the olden days, when I first started out, I would just look at a kid and say, You smoked too much weed, you got to stop.   Kristina Supler: And you did.   Susan Stone: I did. You did. And it was true. Guys. I just tell the truth preach.   Kristina Supler: Well that's the thing, is that your messages, I mean, were they were right. They were spot on.   Susan Stone: Yes, they were.   Kristina Supler: It's hard for kids and parents, especially the parents, to hear because as parents, you know, think about I can appreciate this now that I'm a mother, you're obviously a mother. It's you know, we view our children's successes and struggles in some respects as our own or because of us. And I don't mean that like taking credit for it, but rather if it's like, okay, how did I screw up as a parent where did I go wrong? Did I cause this? And I think that's part of the reason why it's so hard for so many parents to hear,   Susan Stone: I still get research, guys. If your kids drinking too much, I am going to tell you.   Kristina Supler: Well, you are still Susan,   Susan Stone: I you got to be me. Got to be good. But I do it in a different way. You just lead you there. Yes. And so therefore, when the conclusion comes, it's not as much of a shock. And I learned skills from you. I learned it from you.   Kristina Supler: Oh, thank you.   Susan Stone: Well, remember that commercial on drugs?   Kristina Supler: This is your brain. This is your brain on drugs?   Susan Stone: Yeah. The kid goes. Where did you learn that for the parent? I learned it from you.   Kristina Supler: Oh, I had forgotten that part of the commercial   Susan Stone: We're giving good lines   Kristina Supler: I think you know, something that I have learned from you is the importance of just like when there's bad news, when there's something scary or something you're dreading, just hit it head on. Just deal with it. Like, okay, let's pick up the phone, let's make the call. Let's have the meeting with the client. Let's be direct. Because, you know, in reality, like the bad thing, it's not going to go away.   Susan Stone: Yeah, I live by the motto. The only way out of hell is through. And I think that defines our relationship is that we walk through hell for our clients. We walk through hell every day and we do it together.So thank you.   Kristina Supler: Thanks, listeners. And Susan, thank you for being you.   Susan Stone: You're welcome. It's really dunking. It's dunking. No, it's not. bye, everyone.   Kristina Supler: Thanks for listening to Real Talk with Susan and Kristina. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show so you never miss an episode and leave us a review so other people can find the content we share here. You can follow us on Instagram. Just search our handle at Stones hoopla and for more resources, visit us online at Student Defense, Dot.com.Thank you so much for being a part of our real talk community. We'll see you next time.  

In this week's episode of 'Real Talk,' Susan and Kristina dive deep into the topic of bullying. Discovering that your child is either being bullied or is the one doing the bullying can be incredibly challenging for parents. However, it's crucial to be informed. Join us in this episode to learn about the necessary steps you should take, the responsibilities schools have, and how you, as a parent, can ensure your child is protected. Tune in for valuable insights and practical advice. LINKS MENTIONED IN THE SHOW: https://studentdefense.kjk.com/ https://www.instagram.com/stonesupler/  TRANSCRIPT: Susan Stone:  Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Kristina Supler. We are full time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real candid conversations.   Susan Stone: Well, good morning.    Kristina Supler: Good morning, my friend.    Susan Stone: Gosh, I don't know about you, but I'm exhausted. I'm just so tired. Every bone in my body feels tired.    Kristina Supler: It's funny you say that, because this morning, for the first time in an unknown eternity, my alarm went off to go to the gym, and I chose not to get up. I went back to bed and then another hour and a half to sleep.   Susan Stone: I've had a lot of those mornings and I'm wondering what's contributing to the exhaustion. Any ideas on your part? I just think it's we're really busy.    Kristina Supler: We've had a busy January. We've had a lot of hearings. We have a lot of tough cases that I think we both really care about. And, you know, our work is it's not work that you can do if you don't care. You know, I mean, what do you think?    Susan Stone: Yeah, You know, I try very hard and I know you do to to separate work from home because our family does. Yeah, but I take it home. I carry it in my heart. I carry every client in my heart. And it's hard.    Kristina Supler: It's hard to turn off your brain at night and stop thinking about these really significant issues that, you know, we've spent hours all day sorting through. But then you go home and, you know, my children are younger, obviously, as you know, I'm in mom mode cooking dinner and helping with homework. And last night we were making cookies for a school presentation on Friday, and it was kind of like, my gosh, the last thing I want to do, but you have to do it.   Susan Stone: You've got to do it. And I know that I worked last night after I made dinner and I just was losing patience for the client and it was more just fatigue on my part.   Kristina Supler: Yeah.    Susan Stone: So I need to recharge and so do you. What do you do to recharge?    Kristina Supler: that's a good question, because it can be a couple of different things. For me, sometimes it's just having a weekend that's unscheduled, you know, not having a million activities, but then also sleep and exercise and just sort of having some time for myself and not feeling like I'm running around all weekend, you know, taking care of other people. But I mean, what about you?    Susan Stone: Yeah, I don't know. I, I don't know. I keep thinking about it. It's a moving needle. But one of the things I do know is that we do let work move into our home space, and it keeps me up in the middle of the night. So I got to get better at that. And if any of you listeners are out there and have some ideas and yes, I already do practice yoga and healthy.   Kristina Supler:  mindfulness,    Susan Stone: I've got that mindfulness.But you know what's been coming in a lot and I just thought we talk about it. We're getting a lot of calls about bullying again.   Kristina Supler:  We are. And we get those cases and those calls, I should say, all the time. I mean, every year. But I do feel like in January there's always a bit of an uptick in bullying, say, issues. And it's really for students of all ages, wouldn't you agree?    Susan Stone: Yeah. I wonder if you think it has anything to do with the crappy weather.   Kristina Supler: I hadn't thought of that. maybe we're in Cleveland and it was like literally zero a couple of weeks ago, and no one's outside moving around. Everyone's cooped up in homes. That could be a thought. Susan Stone: Yeah, it could be. But so the questions that come in is, if your child's accused of being the bully, how can you help defend my child? If your kid is bullied, what can I do? How do I stop it? Do have a lawsuit? There's a lot of issues related that you would call an attorney for if your child's involved in bullying.   Kristina Supler: Yeah, I mean, and I think that so often in these initial meetings when we're meeting with parents and children alike, you know, one of the first questions we get is, should I sent my kid to school tomorrow? Should I put my kid out of the school? And it's like, okay, we got to deal with this one step at a time. We got a lot to unpack here, but you know, there's not a one size fits all answer. I would say in any of the cases.   Susan Stone:  I have a personal question. Were you ever bullied?   Kristina Supler:  Wow.    Susan Stone: did I touch a personal nerve    Kristina Supler: or was I a bully    Susan Stone: or were you the bully? Yeah,    Kristina Supler: I sincere bully believe I was not a bully.   Susan Stone: Everybody thinks there not the bully    Kristina Supler: will be someone out there who feels who feels otherwise. Who, you know, I ran with in fifth grade, but I. I don't think I was. But, you know,    Susan Stone: We'll find out    Kristina Supler: The universe  has a way of telling us these things, right?    Susan Stone: wow. We're going to get an email from someone to you sure hear about you bullied me in the fifth grade.   Kristina Supler: I this does remind me. I had it's funny, I was saying fifth grade. I had a personal variance that that that deeply scarred me and is still with me to this day. I still carry it with me    Susan Stone: is it juicy.    Kristina Supler: Well, I mean, at the time it was. Yes, yes, yes, yes.    Susan Stone: Do share come on I want to know   Kristina Supler: .I had a group of friends.   Susan Stone: Were they friends or quote friends?    Kristina Supler: Well, I mean, friends in the way that anyone's friends during adolescence that, you know, one day, one day you're the coolest kid in school and then the next day no one will talk to you for no reason, and you're not really sure why. But then 48 hours later, you're back on top. So I had a group of girlfriends who I did view as my friends. I thought we were true friends. Now, in hindsight, you know, what was the quality of the relationship? That's something I would like to have    Susan Stone: Are you still friends with them now.   Kristina Supler: No,   Susan Stone:  okay, then they weren't friends.  Kristina Supler: Yeah, no, no contact. Having contact since, I don't know, 30 years ago. But there there was a boy I had a crush on and my friends convinced the boy to ask me out.   Susan Stone: Now, what The first of all was the boy's name. Come on, Dish.    Kristina Supler: The boy's name was Brad.   Susan Stone: Okay, So did Brad actually in fifth grade ask you out to pizza or what did that even mean? At that age    Kristina Supler: That ended well, that's it. Yeah. What? What did it mean? I'm still asking myself that, but I assure you, it was very significant at the time. We were. We were boyfriend girlfriend. I don't know. Like, we didn't we didn't go anywhere. We didn't meet in public. We this was obviously pre cell phones and social media.    So I supposed dating someone was like an eight minute phone call at 7 p.m. before your parents needed the phone because this was also before you know, people have like multiple lines in their house. And I was like, listen, my house. We were all sharing one phone.    Susan Stone: And so multiple lines in the stone house, I assure you no    Kristina Supler: it it's hot, hot competition in my house to get on the phone in the evening. So at any rate, I liked this boy Brad. And one day out of nowhere, he realized that he, too, like me, wanted me to be his girlfriend.   Susan Stone: So this is not a sad story. This is awesome.    Kristina Supler: but wait, there's more. So I am just over the moon thinking, you know, I'm like, Wow, this is.    Susan Stone: It's Brad. Brad.    Kristina Supler: Well, you'll always have or not. Fast forward, I don't know if it was two days later, three days later, I don't know a certain period of time passed and I'm in gym class and I find out that Brad Shortbread asked me out, but it was really like on a dare or like it was in concerted effort with these like, plans with my friends.   And really it was just to humiliate me. And of course, I found all of this out. And I mean, girl, I was crying hysterically. I ran out of gym class. I was crushed because the humiliation and the worst part about it wasn't just okay, it was joke. Brad doesn't like me. Like, okay, you know, the betrayal. The betrayal that I everyone else had this joke.   I was on the outside. Everyone else knew what was going on. They were talking about me and I wasn't, you know, it was just. Yeah, the betrayal, the devastation, the pain.   Susan Stone: Did you go to school the next day?    Kristina Supler: Girl? Are you kidding me? My parents were like, you know, get over it go back to school. You're fine   Susan Stone: That was my parents. For sure    Kristina Supler: There is no cadwelding you know, let's talk about this. How does that make you feel that? No, no, none of that.    Susan Stone: Yeah, I didn't have that either.   Kristina Supler:  Catholic grade school. So, you know, back in the day, Catholic grade school. I mean, I will say that the teachers were I don't know, they seemed to handle it like recognize how cruel it was. But, you know, the next day, like no one was checking in with me. There were no school psychologists making sure things were fine. I mean, they just they didn't do that.    Susan Stone: This might explain a lot about you. just give me insight    Kristina Supler: I'm just sharing  my vulnerability with our listeners?   Susan Stone:  And I just want you to know how special that is, because Supler is a tough cat and she doesn't really share a lot. So thanks for sharing. supler, But I want to know what's Brad up to ?   Kristina Supler: what? So funny thing I have not ever cyber stalked Brad or really anyone from that period of time in my life. But one day I was driving down the street and I walked past an office and I saw his name and I was like, my gosh, here he is. He's alive and maybe well. And it just it brought back all these memories. And it's funny. I mean, literally, this was I don't even know how many years ago, but I saw the name and it immediately triggered the memory of my mortification and humiliation of the whole my friends and this cruel joke.   Susan Stone:  Well, I have two things to say.One, Brad,    Kristina Supler: your loss.    Susan Stone: Your loss. You're a total loser. And two, to those girls, they lose even more. And I win,    Kristina Supler: Aww thank you. Get lawyerly . Let's talk bullying in a in the legal sense.    Susan Stone: So first of all, let's unpack the definition of bullying because not all acts of unkindness amount to bullying.    Kristina Supler: Someone being mean to your kid. It's so hard. It's so hard because I know, like as a parent, there is nothing. Would you agree Nothing cuts you more than watching your children suffer and feel, you know, excluded or hurt or someone be unkind to them. I mean, that is it's awful.    Susan Stone: Only reason we can laugh about the Brad story is because it occurred many, many years ago and you're over it and it's you.But if it were, your daughter it wouldn't  be funny.    Kristina Supler: No. Now, that's exactly right. And it's it's hard. I think I struggle when we, you know, get inquiries from people and parents share these horrible stories and the you know, my child's being bullied. My child's being bullied. I must have a really powerful lawsuit. Help me help me. And and it's it's hard when you say that sometimes sort of have to say to them, like, wow, that's awful. That's so terrible. Your child must feel terrible. My heart goes out to you. But you don't have a lot of your    Susan Stone: occasional teasing, not bullying. It's going to be severe, and it's got to be persistent, and it's got to be pervasive. And it can also be personal. Or todays cyber.    Kristina Supler: Yeah, I mean, and so much of what we see is involves online social media, communication, group chats, things like that. But I mean, I think the key for our listeners in terms of like, how do you identify bullying? Because of course every state and school code of conduct has different definitions. I mean, of course there's similar themes in all of it, but there can be slightly different definitions. But, you know, again, it's got to be sort of recurring and ongoing and isolated incidents certainly could be a basis for a student or students violating school code of conduct.But I don't know if one incident,   Susan Stone:  one unkind word, does not amount to bullying, but a nine unkind word making fun of someone day after day after day after day. That's consistency is one of the identifiers for bullying.    Kristina Supler: What would you say in terms of whether there has to be like physical or emotional harm or some sort of threats? I mean,    Susan Stone: Well, certainly if you threaten someone that would amount to bullying, give me your lunch money or I will beat you up. I think that is bullying today    Kristina Supler: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. So what should be what are your thoughts about the issue of location?    Susan Stone: Yeah. So it's much easier to prove bullying if it happened at school because then it falls under what I would call the jurisdiction of the school. However, if there is off campus bullying and it impacts your child's ability to perform at school, I think there's an argument that the school's got to get involved.    Kristina Supler: Yeah, so I know that we not too long ago we had a situation involving some social media online communication and some was at school and some wasn't. And, you know, we were sort of I remember passing through and wrestling with, okay, what is the, you know, in lawyer speak, the jurisdictional analysis in terms of what can the school do when stuff maybe happens at home in the evenings on personal devices, not school issued devices,    Susan Stone: but it's complicated.   Kristina Supler: It's complicated. And kids show up at school the next day and there's still the fallout which you know again I'm lawyer speak for impact on education. You're right it's it's tough to know when I would say on the school side sometimes you know in fairness to our educators it's hard for them to know as well where that line is.   Susan Stone: Well, and you'd think about the Supreme Court case of Brandy Lovie, the cheerleader. You're a lot.    Kristina Supler:  tell our listeners about that because key case and I'm guessing many people out there in podcast world don't know what it is    Susan Stone: yeah, Brandy didn't make the cheerleading team    Kristina Supler: poor brandy   Susan Stone: poor brandy and I couldn't be a cheerleader.    Kristina Supler: I can't even do a cartwheel.   Susan Stone: I can't do a split up.    Kristina Supler: That's like literally not even up for discussion. I can't do that.   Susan Stone:  And it just sounds awful. But that's why we're lawyers. So Brandy didn't make the team, and she posted some nasty comments about the coaches online and they disciplined her and they went all the way up to SCOTUS and there was First Amendment protection. I think that's what schools wrestle and with. But remember, that only applies to public schools where you have a First Amendment freedom of speech to talk about things, but certain things are absolutely not protected. And we've talked about that in prior podcast.    Kristina Supler: And I'm going to drop a little bit of legal knowledge for some of our listeners out there and    Susan Stone: drop away.   Kristina Supler: Many find this surprising, but at a private school, at a private school on their campus, you don't have full First Amendment rights. And so, you know, schools are allowed to limit and respond to and some might say restrained speech.    Susan Stone: Correct. And that goes by their honor code and their policy. But I think it's universal that bullying someone based on their appearance, their race, their religion, their ethnicity, a disability will always be subject to discipline.   Kristina Supler: Absolutely. And I would say for poor parents, if you come to learn that your child is experiencing, you know, negative, hostile treatment by peers or staff, I mean, let's face it, that is something that should be immediately, immediately reported to the school and for schools. It's not even a close call school. Need to jump on that right away.   Susan Stone: Speaking of reporting, a lot of times we find out from parents they want to immediately sue the school for not bullying. And then I say, well, did you put the school on notice? Do they know about it    Kristina Supler: the old notice requirement? Yeah. So let's unpack that for our parent listeners out there. notice Look, why is why is known as so important for schools Like what? What does that have to do in relation to about whether there might be a lawsuit or not?    Susan Stone: Well, knock the nerd out again,    Kristina Supler: go nerd away.    Susan Stone: Go observe versus Lago Vista Independent School District that you cannot make a school district liable for something that they don't know about.    Kristina Supler: Make sense to me. I mean, some might say it's a tricky legal requirement, but if you think about it in a very practical level, if schools aren't clearly on notice about something, how can they fix it? But let me so let's take that a step further. What about and say, well, teachers saw it happen. They saw my child, you know, sat in the hallway. How could they not know?    Susan Stone: Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. But if it's not in writing, it didn't happen, then you know that.    Kristina Supler: There you go. There you go. And that's why it's important for I mean, look, not every single piece of communication needs to be in writing, but it's things you know, about misconduct, mistreatment. Send an email to the school. Nothing wrong with.    Susan Stone: I love documenting anything that you think you're going to want to rely on later as a piece of evidence and to prevent miscommunication, we often give advice, and I'd like to pingpong our common words of advice for parents, and I'll start the ping. Number one, put the school on notice and ask for an investigation.   Kristina Supler: Follow up. If you don't get a response and push for something to be done to keep your kids safe.  Susan Stone: Number two in While an investigation is pending, ask for interim measures. What does that mean?   Kristina Supler:  Well, an easy one that comes to mind is some sort of no contact or stay away. Order.    Susan Stone: Okay, Now separate the kids.    Kristina Supler: Maybe ask, for instance, for schedules to be changed, different lunch periods, maybe some sort of restrictions or regulations for who goes where at recess, on the playground, things like that.   Susan Stone: And the bus. the bus,    Kristina Supler: Yeah. I'm so glad you said that. We have a lot of matters where things are okay during the day and then kids get on the bus and everything rapidly falls apart.    Susan Stone: Number three, ask the school to provide mental health support services if your child's suffering.    Kristina Supler: And it's important, I would say that families really avail themselves to those services. Sometimes there can be a hesitation to take advantage of school services, but they're there. Use them. And particularly now, you know, this is such a cliche to say post-COVID, post-COVID, but truly there is such a shortage of available, readily available mental health services. And, you know, I know I think Susan, we here at least once a week in difficult I called the therapist and they can't take my kid. You know my kid's in a waitlist. It's going to be six weeks before we get an appointment. If you're tired suffering, you can't wait that long.   Susan Stone:  It's been really since COVID a struggle to get the mental health support for all those students who need that help. Last and this is self-serving, guys, I know it, but if you ever need doubt on how to handle things, consult a lawyer. Kristina Supler: That's right. We're here to support families in crisis, talk through the legal issues and really help kids. I mean, that is at the heart of our legal work. I think kids and using that label broadly, kids can be like 25 30 that the support students,    Susan Stone: you know, people think that just because you call a lawyer, we all sue. And while we do file lawsuits, that is one of our    Kristina Supler: we do we do    Susan Stone: we do a lot of other things like counseling and navigating and helping people through crisis. So don't just think because you call a lawyer that you're going to be suing the district. Maybe the lawyer will help you nip the situation in the bud and get a better resolution quickly.    Kristina Supler: And that really, I think, is a win, you know, because court, let's face it, though, we're our lawyers and go to court. Let's face it, it's not for everyone, that's for sure. And certainly it takes a toll on families and kids. But I think this was a good, good talk today.    Susan Stone: Yeah, And I have to say something. You girls who did that to my partner, Kristina Supler, if I ever meet you, I am going to be watching you and Brad. You missed out.    Kristina Supler: That's right. Look at me now.    Susan Stone: Yeah all, This is more.   Kristina Supler: Thanks for listening to Real Talk with Susan and Kristina. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show so you never miss an episode and leave us a review so other people can find the content we share here. You can follow us on Instagram. Just search our handle at Stones hoopla and for more resources, visit us online at Student Defense, Dot.com. Thank you so much for being a part of our real talk community. We'll see you next time.  

In this week's episode of 'Real Talk,' Susan and Kristina take on the daunting task of deciphering the ever-changing slang of today's kids. From navigating linguistic rollercoasters to tackling new words and phrases that pop up daily, they show that staying in the know is not just essential but also a fun challenge. Join them for some laughs and linguistic acrobatics as they take on today's latest trends. TRANSCRIPT: Susan Stone: Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Kristina Supler. We are full-time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real candid conversations. Have a fun podcast today, Supler.   Kristina Supler: What are we talking about?   Susan Stone: We are going to talk about decoding teen slang and trends.   Kristina Supler: Oooo, fun, I like it.   Susan Stone: Yeah. Before we launch into our podcast today, can I just say it is so flipping cold out.   Kristina Supler: Oh my gosh. It is freezing out. To our listeners out there, We are in Cleveland where it's a balmy four degrees or one degree, depending upon the device you look at, and it is just frigid.   Susan Stone: Okay, So hubby last night noted that there are no terms for cold and it's been called an ‘arctic blast'. You ever thought that we were experiencing…    Kristina Supler: I feel like I've heard like local weather people use different iterations of Arctic blast. Arctic freeze. I don't know.   Susan Stone: All I know is I was trying to walk the dogs yesterday and it was truly a miserable experience for me and the dogs. They didn't even want to go out and go to the bathroom. It was awful.   Kristina Supler: Funny, I had the same experience this morning when I took my two dogs out. It was like quick rush, take your business and get back inside. But even inside, Freezing. Freezing, freezing, freezing.   Susan Stone: Yeah, and didn't you have… What happened with your uh… was it your, was it your water heater? Your power? What happened this weekend?   Kristina Supler:  So, Cleveland got a big storm over the weekend and yeah, I didn't have power for 24 hours so I was, we were away. It's fortunate that we were away but it was a little nerve racking in terms of, I don't know, bad things happening in the house. Fortunately, my husband informed me that power has no impact on our heating system because we have steam. I didn't really know. Yes, but yeah, food in the fridge, all those fun issues that Midwesterners deal with, so on and so forth. But here we are today and hopefully we've got something light and funny that can warm things up.   Susan Stone: Yeah. You know what we did yesterday? I took my youngest and we went and saw Mean Girls.   Kristina Supler: Oh I read about the like re- uh, relaunch of that movie. I've never seen it. Tell me about it.   Susan Stone: Well, I love the original. And the original was amazing. Rachel McAdams, Lindsay Lohan,   Kristina Supler: I was gonna say isn't Lindsay Lohan in it. That's. Yeah, the two comes to mind.   Susan Stone: Yeah. And that was one of her. And she's in the remake.   Kristina Supler: How's she looking these days?   Susan Stone: She's looking gorgeous.   Kristina Supler: Really, good! Good.   Susan Stone: Shout out to you, Lindsay. You are aging fine. But I will say, Tori, my 18 year old, did not like the movie at all.   Kristina Supler: Really? Why? Now, did she had she seen the original or. No?   Susan Stone:  No, she had. She just thought.   Kristina Supler: the remake was not hitting her right?   Susan Stone: No. She thought it was insulting to her intelligence.   Kristina Supler: Why is that?   Susan Stone: Well, she felt like it didn't capture the original flavor of bullying. And she thought bullying is such an important topic that they sort of made fun of it and made light of it and made it seem ridiculous.   Kristina Supler:  So let me ask you, was there any, like redeeming message or takeaway for viewers of the movie? Any lessons to be learned?   Susan Stone: I mean It was the same lesson be kind, be nice, blah, blah, blah. I'm not trying to put down.   Kristina Supler: Sure that's and that's a good one, but it's a little basic.   Susan Stone: But the way it was delivered, that's the word   Kristina Supler: Basic.   Susan Stone:  It was basic. Yeah. So, you know, I wanted to love it. I want it to because I love the original and I know there's now the musical and, you know I love me a Musical.   Kristina Supler: You love a Musical.   Susan Stone: Oh my gosh. I mean, there isn't a musical that I don't rush and see.   Kristina Supler: I think it's so funny that we're talking about this because I have to imagine while and I've experienced that, sometimes people think that as lawyers we're, you know, reading the news and thinking about Supreme Court opinions and all these, you know, intellectual things, and here we are, “Hey, Supler I saw Mean Girls yesterday”.    Susan Stone: But on to our topic about the way kids talk and how language changes. So I was, I did a little research. Truthfully, I forgot the fun terms I used when I was in high school or were popular in the eighties.   Kristina Supler: Okay, lay it on me.    Susan Stone: Okay. Ready?   Kristina Supler: Ready.   Susan Stone: Gag me with the spoon. Did you say that?   Kristina Supler:  Never. No. I can honestly say no. I never said Gag me with a spoon.   Susan Stone: Ready?   Kristina Supler: Ready.   Susan Stone:  Eat my shorts.   Kristina Supler: Uh that, that I'm familiar with through one, Bart Simpson. You really said that? You said eat my shorts.    Susan Stone: I didn't, but others did.   Kristina Supler: I just. What does is it really mean? Like, like.   Susan Stone: Do you think it means Bug off? Maybe. I think that's what it means. Eat my shorts.    Kristina Supler: Okay.   Susan Stone: And gnarly.   Kristina Supler: Now, Now. Okay. Who doesn't know? Gnarly. Sure. I think gnarly still kind of with us. The West Coast vibe a bit. I don't know.   Susan Stone: So, Let's talk about some of the terms. I didn't know that well. Proposed by our fine marketing department.   Kristina Supler: Let me ask you, though, what's what generation were you? Are you?   Susan Stone: I am the beginning of Gen X.   Kristina Supler: Ohhhh.   Susan Stone: Babies baby   Kristina Supler:  Sure, sure, sure, sure.   Susan Stone: Madonna spoke. You can't see me Voguing. Voguing, guys.   Kristina Supler: Best music video ever. Ever! What's interesting about that is I think of myself as a Gen Xer, but actually, I shudder to admit this. I don't want to admit this, but I must. I am technically the beginning of millennials.   Susan Stone: There is nothing about you that's a Millennials   Kristina Supler: I don't identify that way. I really see myself as a Gen Xer like the nineties vibe, but I guess according to the internet, according to Wikipedia or what have you, I'm technically a first year millennial.   Susan Stone: That's interesting that I'm a Gen Xer. I was a latchkey kid, and for those of you who don't know what that is, my mom went to work and I had a, what was it, a shoestring with a key.   Kristina Supler: You literally had a key on a shoestring.   Susan Stone: I literally had a key on a shoestring.   Kristina Supler: I didn't know that was a real thing.   Susan Stone: That's why they called it ‘latchkey kids' Supler. It's a real thing.   Kristina Supler: Well, I have to confess, I grew up in a house that we never locked. I never had a key.   Susan Stone: That's a beautiful thing.   Kristina Supler: It actually is.   Susan Stone: That's a beautiful thing .And I was the MTV generation who didn't remember Tabatha Sorenson. So cute. And I was on MTV once.    Kristina Supler: No.   Susan Stone: Yeah, I danced.   Kristina Supler: Tell me more.   Susan Stone: There's not that much to tell.   Kristina Supler: On the Grind? Were you on MTV on the Grind?   Susan Stone: It was one of those shows, you literally waited in line and when they told you to dance, you danced. It's hilarious.   Kristina Supler: But was it the Grind? Yes or no?   Susan Stone: I don't think so.   Kristina Supler:  Because I really hope that it was.   Susan Stone: And my roommate in college had a picture of Ronald Reagan above her bed.   Kristina Supler: (Laughing) What did she love him?   Susan Stone: She loved him.   Kristina Supler: Was she attracted to him?   Susan Stone:  I don't know Ronny was hot. Ronny was hot.   Kristina Supler: Sensible citizen. Oh my God. Now that is the funniest thing.   Susan Stone: Okay, guys Let's talk about some words and then we can respond to what this generation is "saying. And I am going to mispronounce it, but 'gyat'.   Kristina Supler: I, I just can't with this one. With this one, I just can't. I am told, so for all of our listeners out there, I've only recently come to learn this, this word, this phrase, and apparently it is a high compliment. It is a major, major compliment to give someone indicating that their derriere is large.    Susan Stone: Yeah. I asked my daughter, do you know what ‘gyat' is? She's just like ass. I'm like, okay.   Kristina Supler: Yeah. So I guess it rhymes with squat or bought    Susan Stone: or fiat.   Kristina Supler: And then it can also be, I guess I'm told, an acronym for something about the backside being thick. I don't know.   Susan Stone:  But I have to be honest, I've never heard it used in my house.   Kristina Supler: I've never heard it used. I've never seen it. I mean, in our work representing students, we read a lot of text messages and social media posts. I've never even read it in a text, so I personally am very circumspect about this word and its use and popularity. I feel like a journalist or someone Internet writer out there just like made it up or heard one person use it and then said, oh parents, hey, you need to know this word. And it's really not a thing.   Susan Stone: I don't even like the way it sounds. But you know, you have a question for you. Why? When we read and we read thousands of text messages in our case, what's the point of Bruh B.R.U.H   Kristina Supler: I wish I knew. I wish I knew. I've got nothing for you on that. And we see it literally every day and it's constant, It's constant. Like every other thing is ‘bruh'. And then the other question I have for you is ‘lol', after everything, even after stuff that's not funny, you still put ‘lol bruh'. That you see a lot as well. I don't know. That is more with people, our clients who are a little bit older. It's not like high schoolers, but that I see all the time and I feel like it's just a habit because it's literally like on text where there's not even something funny said.   Susan Stone: I don't get it, I don't get it. I agree.   Kristina Supler: I think for parents, the key is… And parents out there, Please don't please don't say gyat. I mean, that would just be mortifying to your child.   Susan Stone: Yeah, you really will look like a total loser.   Kristina Supler: Way to not mince your words.   Susan Stone: I know. Okay, parents try it and then they'll tell you your kids that you're a total loser.   Kristina Supler:  Yeah. No they won't, they won't want to go in public with you.   Susan Stone: Now, this is all from our marketing department, so shout out to Amanda for doing the research on this. But the next word is…    Kristina Supler: Well, hold on. Drum roll, please. For the 2023 word of the year.   Susan Stone Rizz   Kristina Supler: Susan, what does Rizz mean?    Susan Stone Charisma.   Kristina Supler: Ohhhhh the ability to charm someone or woo someone. Now, have you ever So I have not heard my children use this. My kids are a little bit younger. What? You have a senior in high school? Have you heard her use it?   Susan Stone No, I've never heard her use Rizz, but I did. Again, just like I am curious her and she says it's more used in the negative, like she doesn't have Rizz.   Kristina Supler: Oh. Okay. I guess I see it. I don't know. Some of these things. Truly. I feel like you're just, like, made into things for internet writers to launch off on. But we'll have to see if Rizz continues on to 2024.   Susan Stone Don't think it's going to make it.   Kristina Supler:  I'm inclined to agree. But let me ask you, though, 2024 word that's going to become, you know, plastered all over text messages. Do you think it'll be like a compliment, an insult, a rhetorical turn of phrase? What were you going with this?   Susan Stone No clue, guys. I don't know.   Kristina Supler: Come on bruh, come on bruh!   Susan Stone But what I do know is that, you know, what's the point of this podcast is important, and it's because we don't want parents running around saying ‘Rizz' and ‘Gyat, and  ‘Bruh'.   Kristina Supler: Yes, let's be clear. We are not advocating for that on any level. We are talking about this though, because I think it's just important for parents to know what these things mean. So I don't know. For instance, you go snooping, you read your kids, you know, messages in the phone. It's sometimes you literally can't tell what they're talking about. And so it's important to know words and phrases.   Susan Stone Well, on our case, I have to say I use the Urban Dictionary a lot.   Kristina Supler: Oh yeah. I mean, I can't I can't deny having had to turn to it on more than one occasion. And also, I'll tell you what else I really am uninformed about and trying to do better with is emojis and what they mean.   Susan Stone Oh those are hard.   Kristina Supler: Those are hard. I mean, obviously, we know like happy, sad, so on and so forth, but some of them are very confusing to me. And again, we go through text in cases all the time and it's like literally have to Google what certain emojis mean.   Susan Stone I even know, you know, about peaches and eggplant. You had to tell me.   Kristina Supler: I was going to say, I definitely feel like I knew that.    Susan Stone But you did. But I went to you. And once it was explained, I kind of saw the Peach.   Kristina Supler:  You saw the booty,   Susan Stone I saw a tush, but it wasn't intuitive to me.   Kristina Supler: Sure, sure. Well, and you have a very good vocabulary, so, you know, you're like pulling out your dictionary words, not Rizz, but, you know, the fancy dictionary words. And so   Susan Stone I do I pride myself on that. And, you know, I like to think of myself as a reader.   Kristina Supler: Sure. Me too. Me too.   Susan Stone I started the new James McBride book. so good. Anyways, that's a sidetrack. Let's talk about one last topic of what's going on in Teen Trends, which is different. It's kind of like a redo from my gen. What is preppy?   Kristina Supler: Well, I think we've come full circle with our mean girls theme and like redos, re- rehashing something out because preppy is back and alive full well now and it's interesting   Susan Stone It is different.   Kristina Supler: It is different, and I see preppy now this I have familiarity with through my daughter and her friends. And back in my day, growing up, when I thought I was a Gen Xer, but apparently I'm not heartbroken. Preppy was like Lacoste and you had your Gap, Argyle, V-neck Sweaters and…   Susan Stone The Gap, the Izod, with the collar turned up.   Kristina Supler: Pop the collar, baby.   Susan Stone Pop the collar and Bermuda backs.   Kristina Supler: Oh no, I don't know what that is.   Susan Stone They were these cute little purses where you could change the outer side and little button them on there. They're cute.   Kristina Supler: Penny loafers, suede bath box. Do you remember those? That was hot in Catholic grade schools.   Susan Stone I didn't go to Catholic grade school, but I know you did. But yeah, preppy was the and the preppy handbook that was really big.   Kristina Supler: I do not know what that is.   Susan Stone It was a book on how to be preppy. I mean, it was a how to, but today it seems very expensive, what preppy is.   Kristina Supler: Yeah. Well I mean I guess it probably was back in the day as well with, you know, buying your Lacoste shirt and whatnot. But so for the youngsters now, it's interesting. It's sort of I would say it's like a lifestyle. It's a look and a lifestyle.   Susan Stone Is it like Goop, a lifestyle brand?   Kristina Supler: Yeah, I mean Goop is, kind of in a way. But Goop is for what middle aged women be. So think lots of pink and…   Susan Stone Like Barbie pink?   Kristina Supler: Yes, Barbie pink. But before it was a thing. Before Barbie was the Barbie remake. Sure. Lululemon, there's no point getting dressed if you don't have on Lululemon.   Susan Stone But see I think of Lululemon as middle age housewife.   Kristina Supler: Well, you think of it athleisure.   Susan Stone  I do.   Kristina Supler: And I do too, actually. But for the young ones out there, it's just what you wear. It's what you do. You always have your water bottle you're carrying around your Stanley thing. But that's not like, I don't know, I, I funny enough, I was doing some reading the other day and came across something on like how Stanley got big and it was a few like Instagram accounts that really made Stanley, like become a huge, huge thing more recently   Susan Stone That Laneige…   Kristina Supler: Lip balm?   Susan Stone Yeah!   Kristina Supler:  Lip Mask? Yup.   Susan Stone  My daughter's   Kristina Supler: Yeah.   Susan Stone The oldest one. Hey, Alex bought it for me and I have say, shout out to Laneige epically now in this bad cold weather.   Kristina Supler: Yeah.   Susan Stone I really like it. Oh my gosh. I meant to ask you, you know how I bought you. Just as a you're the best business partner in the world, Jones Road Balm?   Kristina Supler: Yes.    Susan Stone I am loving it this winter. Do you notice I have a little on?   Kristina Supler:  A little a little subtle glow.   Susan Stone a little subtle glow. But it does keep you moisturized in this weather. So I bought you that gift. Are you using it? I'm putting you on the spot.   Kristina Supler: Well, now that it's cold out, I might, I might bring it back in the summer. It just. It didn't do me right. But now it might be time. Now that my skin's dryer. I will tell you another example of, like, the penultimate preppy brand for girls now is the Aviator Nation sweat wear. And I so I actually, coincidentally enough this weekend was driving and listen to the how I built this podcast.   Susan Stone I love that guy, Raz.   Kristina Supler: Who doesn't, who doesn't!   Susan Stone Shout out to him too.   Kristina Supler: And they had on the founder of Aviator Nation who, by the way, her brother was the founder of Tom's. Think about that family gene pool. Isn't that interesting? But Aviator Nation is essentially like very high-end sweat- sweatshirts, sweat pants, so on and so forth, known for like applique, essentially sewing on stripes of things like that.   Susan Stone I'm looking at it on a website because I didn't know about it. I don't get it.   Kristina Supler: Well, you know, it's just like it's a thing. What makes the sweatshirt worth $150? I couldn't really tell you, but kids want it. Parents are paying for it.   Susan Stone I don't get it.   Kristina Supler: I think it's like a status thing, too. But it's supposed to be very like colorful. And again, it's a lifestyle. It's an aspirational brand. And the young ones are all about it now. So I don't know that these are kind of like the key, I shouldn't say the key, but brands that come to my mind in terms of like, what the tweens now or viewing is like preppy and what is preppy and skin care. They're very they're very intense in skin care   Susan Stone Oh my gosh and I think that's a good thing.   Kristina Supler:  Sure, why not?   Susan Stone I think that establishes really good lifelong habits. But I got to share something. My, in my day, it was either Gloria Vanderbilt or Jordache jeans.   Kristina Supler: Oh yeah.   Susan Stone I've got to tell you, my mother would not buy them for me. We were out of my family's budget and I remember crying over it   Kristina Supler: in my day. It was Guess jeans.   Susan Stone Yeah, but.   Kristina Supler: But you wanted the Gloria Vanderbilt pencil pouch. That was like the hot item at my school.   Susan Stone My parents didn't cater to that.   Kristina Supler: Mine didn't really. But like, my mother understood why it was important to us. And so we always had to like we had chores and allowance and we had to save our money and then go buy it ourselves.   Susan Stone So yeah. And you know what? I really try not to capitulate and rush out to every trend.   Kristina Supler: Sure. No, I think that and that actually by the way, I think that is those are words of wisdom for listeners of any age, because a trend is just that, a trend here today, gone tomorrow. And so, I mean, if you're going to jump on board with the trend, go for it. But I wouldn't, you know, do so in an expensive way.   Susan Stone No, no. Because, you know, we know what that creates.   Kristina Supler: And parents, we all know here today, gone tomorrow in terms of what our kids are interested in, what they want. So what they're saying. Right.   Susan Stone And what they're saying. So for us, it's a necessity. We can't get, do our job unless we can read their texts.   Kristina Supler: Yeah, I mean, kidding aside, of course, this was obviously we were being light with the topic. But truly, there are often times in many cases where we're going through social media communication and there's text back and forth and they're really important. There, you know, relevant to the case and who did what, said what, when, where, so on and so forth. And we need to understand what's being said. And we don't always.   Susan Stone Okay, bruh.   Kristina Supler: Thank you, bruh. LOL. Until next time. Thanks for listening to Real Talk with Susan and Kristina. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show so you never miss an episode and leave us a review so other people can find the content we share here. You can follow us on Instagram. Just search our handle at Stones hoopla and for more resources, visit us online at Student Defense, Dot.com. Thank you so much for being a part of our real talk community. We'll see you next time.

Welcome to Real Talk with Susan and Kristina! In this episode, we'll dive into the importance of addressing uncomfortable topics with your children. Join us as we explore why these difficult conversations are crucial for your child's well-being and navigating life's challenges. Gain practical tips on addressing sensitive subjects, fostering open communication, and dive into real-life situations drawn from our cases and personal experiences with our own children. LINKS MENTIONED IN THE SHOW:  https://studentdefense.kjk.com/  https://www.instagram.com/stonesupler/ https://www.amazon.com/Yes-Your-Kid-Parents-Todays/dp/1637743807 TRANSCRIPT: Susan Stone: Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Kristina super. We are full time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real candid conversations.   Susan Stone: Okay. This is Martin Luther King Day, and we're in our new studio. What do you think about our new digs? Miss Supluar.    Kristina Supler: I like it. Fix some adjustment. But I. I actually. I think it's nice. It's cozy. It's more intimate.   Susan Stone: that is interesting. Well, hopefully not as interesting as our topic today, which is parenting through tough conversation. Anything recent you want to share from the old simpler house?    Kristina Supler: Funny you should ask. So recently we had a little tough conversation parenting moment in my household with my daughter and some Netflix content. Let me tell you, these these parent settings and these accounts, number one parent listeners out there, if you don't know how to do that and check for content and age-appropriate restrictions, please do so. Very important because if you don't, your child has unfettered access to everything, and I learned that on Netflix. If you don't put on like parental controls and kids are watching like they can access NC 17 material, there's some steamy stuff on there.    Susan Stone: You know what? I had no idea, but I want to know where to find that steamy material. (Laughing) Kidding    Kristina Supler: After a long day of work, Susan's going home and firing up the Netflix.   Susan Stone:  But my kids are older, so I don't have to worry about it.   Kristina Supler: So, you can do that. That's right. That's right. But yes, there are these settings. Make sure you have you know, how they work, and they're turned on and fired up and good to go. But so, it was brought to my attention by, I'll just say, a family member    Susan Stone: a family member   Kristina Supler: that said, hey, you might want to give an eye towards, you know, what your daughter's looking at. And I said, my gosh, thank you for telling me. Because I think it's important to not always say, my child would never do that. You have to sort of be open to the possibility of your kid doing anything.    Susan Stone: Well, Supler considering you are a coauthor on a book saying, yes, your kid, it would be slightly hypocritical if you didn't think your own kid could do something.   Kristina Supler: Indeed, indeed. And to our listeners out there, check out. Yes, your kid available at all. Booksellers    Susan Stone: I did not mean for that to be a plug.   Kristina Supler: no no.   Susan Stone: But I was topical.   Kristina Supler: I had to seize the moment. So at any rate, I said, Well, let me do some digging and you know, you like to call me investigators Suplar   Susan Stone: Oh my gosh.For the listeners out there, nobody and I mean nobody can get to the bottom of different facts. Like my law partner Kristina Suplesr. So, what did you do?    Kristina Supler: Well, so I start doing a little a little digging just late light investigation. Let's say I call my husband and loop him in to what's before us. I get his thoughts. And I was like, you know, before before having that parent child moment, I want to get my own facts right so that I know. So I sort of like a little, I want to say test, but I suppose it is test like is my is my when I confront my daughter, will she be truthful with me or not? So that you know, I know where to go with the conversation. So we did some investigating and digging that my husband got all in on it and like for hours were testing iteration of what you can and can't do with these shows and what record shows up in this and that. Just to know, you know, what what actually happened, it is best we could. Of course. And it was interesting because my daughter eventually had a conversation. She said, Mom, I wasn't watching those shows.   Susan Stone: And is it true?   Kristina Supler:  I went through that viewing history up, down, left and right. You can download spreadsheets. We did all these simulated tests and delete history.    Susan Stone: Tacky for me, way too tacky.    Kristina Supler: The shows weren't there, so I don't know if look, we don't know what happened and who did what, but what I do know is that I saw no evidence that my daughter did what she was accused of doing.   Susan Stone: So, Not your kid,   Kristina Supler:  not my kid, fortunately. But that is not to say that it could never be my child. And I actually think you and I are both like very real about that possibility. That notwithstanding what we do for a living in conversations we have at home, things still happen.    Susan Stone: Yeah, we have difficult conversations with our clients every day.   Kristina Supler: Every day.   Susan Stone: And it is a skill.   Kristina Supler:  absolutely. And I would say it's a skill that requires cultivation and over time it's a skill you improve with experience, which is true of most things, but tough conversations, it's you get better at having them, but they don't ever really get easier.   Susan Stone:  It's not fun. But here's the deal. In today's day and age, what we're finding is that having tough conversations with your kids is more important. And at the same time, we're seeing a lot of conflict avoidance and it's creating bigger issues. Kristina Supler: I totally agree. I totally agree. And I will tell you, from our perspective as lawyers, of course, we want to help all of our clients and get the best outcome possible. But, you know, success. We arrest a lot. What's your success rate? And we sort of often say, well, you know, it's relative because every case is different. And the reality is, is that you can't always have a perfect outcome in every case. But the cases that hurt the most are the ones where we look at each other and we're like, this didn't have to happen this way.    Susan Stone: I agree. And when we talk to parents about why, why have the tough conversation? Because let's face it, nobody likes to confront their kid. Nobody wants to cause an argument.    Kristina Supler: No.   Susan Stone:  it's a fight.    Kristina Supler: No, you want to have nice, fun conversations about what are you getting for dinner and what's going on at school. But the reality is these tough conversations are so important because really, at any age, they're essential for helping, I think, keep your child safe, even when your child's a young adult.   Susan Stone: What I find is even when you're getting pushback from a particular child, they still hear you.    Kristina Supler: Oh absolutely. I totally agree. I totally agree. They hear you. And I think there's also just a component of sort of communicating to your child that you care and, you know, whether it's just that you want to see the best for them in all ways and it's okay to make mistakes. It's okay to be curious, but you just have to be smart about the choices you're making here.   Susan Stone:  You know what? Kids need to know where their parents stand on issues.    Kristina Supler: I totally agree. I totally agree. And, you know, that's a tough one in this day and age, because I think that, you know, we're in a country that's so divided and there's all these political issues, cultural issues, religious issues.I mean, you name it every day. There's some like very hot ticket controversial thing on the news. But I think it's so important as our children are being, you know, bombarded with content from tick tock and who knows where else that they know what their parents think that they know. You're like my mom and dad say that's important or my mom and dad or say that that's really dangerous, that it's just giving some structure to your kids.   Susan Stone: Talk about how to have a conversation, because you know what we know how students behave when confronted and we're not going to sell you the bull, that it's going to go swimming. This isn't a sitcom. Life is not a sitcom. So you might have pushback. You may have a temper tantrum. I've heard even of situations where things have gotten physical between parent and child. Things can go really wrong.   Kristina Supler: Oh I believe it.   Susan Stone:  Yeah,    Kristina Supler: I believe it. Especially with teens. And when there's hormones and angst and rage about life being unfair, I absolutely.    Susan Stone: So, when you're going to have a conversation. I think first time in place.    Kristina Supler: Yes. So what what do you think? What are your preferred times and places?    Susan Stone: It's hard. I at first thing, I'm a working mom,    Kristina Supler: Mhmmm   Susan Stone: so I can't do after school. That's not realistic for me.   Kristina Supler:  Right.   Susan Stone:  Ideally, that really is the best time, right when they get home from school.    Kristina Supler: Well, depending on age though, I don't know if your kids are younger. If they're older, they probably have sports or job or other stuff after school. But I hear you.    Susan Stone: I like where they're a captive audience. So ideally, again, the car is a great place because where are they going to go?   Kristina Supler: I agree with that. The car is a great place. We I drive my kids to school in the morning and sometimes it's a good opportunity for a quick check in the short drive, but a quick check in    Susan Stone: and nothing wrong with that. But again, I now have older kids. Well, my I have two grown kids and one left, but so I don't really get the ones they start driving. You're not going to get more. I think at night you just pop in their room, knock on the door, come in and you have to dive, dig in. And and it's got to be organic sometimes, too, as things come up that you hear about, whether it's bullying or peer pressure, drugs, mental health, sexting, I mean, that topics are endless.   Kristina Supler: So let's do a hypothetical.   Susan Stone:  Sure.    Kristina Supler: You get a question? Yeah. There's there's buzz about sexting in your child's school. Let's keep this high school. You're hearing rumors from other parents, maybe like, I don't know, some online parent group, because actually I learn a lot in those parent groups online. And there's talk about nude images going around the school. Would you bring that up? And like, how would you go about having a conversation to make sure that it's understood that sexting is a no no?    Susan Stone: Well, that could be brought up at the dinner table because that's a general conversation. I don't consider that a difficult conversation just because it's a racy topic like vaping or marijuana use. To me, that's not difficult to recognize that I'm a little different when I think of a difficult conversation. I think you are confronting your child about something    Kristina Supler: Mhmmm   Susan Stone: you suspect they're doing. Yeah, general topics are important and hopefully can pave the way to not have a difficult conversation. But a difficult conversation is I think you're drinking with your friend. That's a difficult conversation.    Kristina Supler: Yeah. I mean, I'm. I'm not sure I totally agree with you, because I would say that you and I, given what we do for a living, are pretty comfortable in Converse. And are these types of issues, right, Like social media, drugs, sex, bullying, cancel culture. I could go on and on, but I think for a lot of families, I mean, the thought of having a conversation, much less at dinner with everyone there about nude images, I think a lot of parents find that incredibly difficult. And I think that's why we see so much of what we see in terms of families not understanding repercussions, kids not understanding repercussions, and parents wanting to talk to their kids about it, but they just don't quite know how.    Susan Stone: or I'll tell you. What's a difficult conversation When kids get sloppy with their homework, and you get those alerts? I remember,    Kristina Supler: oh yeah,   Susan Stone:  when one of my children, it used to be and Il remember being at work and getting an alert that they didn't turn in homework and it would make me not like, why didn't you turn in your homework? How hard is it? You do it, you put it in your book bag or you you turn it in. I guess they don't do that anymore. You do.   Kristina Supler: You upload it. Whatever,    Susan Stone: and do your homework. This is your job. And while the job of someone in school is to do the homework.  Kristina Supler:Yeah. Yeah. Well. And see that I would say is an easy conversation. It's a frustrating conversation. Certainly, but not one that's necessarily that embarrassing or involves using body part words or something super incriminating. But I don't know let's so the sexting you thought that was easy That wasn't a hard one in your house?    Susan Stone: because also there's been a lot of education at my kids school about sexting and they all know about predators. And I think there's just a lot more awareness.    Kristina Supler:so how would you let's just say like, let's go with a low hanging fruit for what I would say. You know, most teenagers, drugs and alcohol, you're worried that your child may be experimenting with one or both and you want to, you know, have that confrontation in a, I don't know, firm but loving way. What are your thoughts on like how to has lean into that conversation with your child?    Susan Stone: First, of all I'm a lot like you in the sense that I do a lot of snooping and just want you to know there's no right to privacy in my home.    Kristina Supler: Totally agree. Totally agree. And I mean, I think it's important to, you know, let your kids know that once in a while you might be looking at their stuff or in our house.The rule is that we have to have all passcodes. And if we don't, the devices are gone. Because I'm very pro snooping. I think it's an essential part of parenting.   Susan Stone: Yeah. So I don't understand. I mean, occasionally you have to go into the bedroom and look around.    Kristina Supler: Well, and I'm going to I'm going to say something that's perhaps controversial.Yes. Children and parents are not equal.    Susan Stone: Whoa!   Kristina Supler: at the risk of sounding old fashioned, I'm going to say my house, my pocketbook, my rules. And so I yeah, I think that look, I think it's an interesting theoretical conversation to talk about, you know, kids and their right to privacy. But in my mind, the reality is if you have questions or concerns or doubts, look at the device.I think it will go through the bedroom. I don't see a problem with that. I don't    Susan Stone:  Now. It's funny. My number two, when I went out of town, threw a party.    Kristina Supler: Mhmmm Haven't we all.   Susan Stone: Oh my gosh. It it was devastating to learn about.   Kristina Supler: Sure  And how did you find out about it?   Susan Stone:  Oh my sister found out.   Kristina Supler: No. How did she find out? Did she drive by the house?    Susan Stone: She drove by the house.    Kristina Supler:Ahhhh   Susan Stone: I know she kicked the party out.    Kristina Supler:The kids weren't smart enough to, like, park around the corner or down the street.   Susan Stone: There were too many. Too many.    Kristina Supler:Oh my gosh.    Susan Stone: I was not calm during that. So I have to say, sometimes I have failed during difficult conversations.   I've raised my voice and I've become a raging, screaming lunatic. Yeah, I'm a yeller.   Kristina Supler: I think we all have no judgment. No judgment   Susan Stone:  in a perfect world. You know, we were looking at an article preparing today from Psychology Today. I love this.   Kristina Supler:Lay on me. What you got?   Susan Stone:  It says, stay calm.    Kristina Supler:Oh okay, Sure.   Susan Stone: Stay calm. Help your child feel safe.    Kristina Supler: Okay.   Susan Stone: I think none I lost my shit.    Kristina Supler: Sure.   Susan Stone: Okay. I did. I lost it.    Kristina Supler: It happens.    Susan Stone: Yeah, sometimes it does happen. And you know what? When you do lose it, it's okay later to apologize for that.  Kristina Supler: I agree with that as well. I in I myself have been in that position where maybe I didn't handle things as well as I would have liked to.And I totally think it's important and I think it's setting a really good example for your kids to go back, you know, maybe an hour or so later, maybe longer days, perhaps after the dust settles and just say, look, you know, I thought about our conversation and, you know, I'm sorry that I raised my voice, said, you know, fill in the blank. But I want you to know I love you no matter what. And you know, I was wrong. I think it's I don't know. I think it's important for your kids to see you admit fault, too. You know, I think it helps sort of teach them the importance of apologizing. We're not perfect and being thoughtful and maybe not writing people off right away to when they say something you don't agree with    Susan Stone: It kind of goes with the job. On the other hand, it's okay to walk out of the house, go to yoga, run around the block and do what you need to do to regroup, because raising teenagers can be really, really, really difficult. You have to have the conversation, you know, want. I feel bad sometimes when you and I having the conversation.   Kristina Supler: Oh yeah. I mean, just circling back to something I said earlier, Kids make mistakes. People we all make mistakes. And, you know, often it's mistakes that brings families to us in moments of crisis. But the really the heartbreaking ones are when we think, oh my gosh, if only there was a conversation about, I don't know, rough sex. We deal with that a lot. You know, having that conversation with your child about the dangers of choking and strangulation and just because everyone else is doing it, you know, what are the implications? In our title nine cases, we see that a lot.    Susan Stone: Well, we talk a lot about that in the book and actually the genesis for the book.But choking parents out there, you all need to tell your kids Cut that out, that no choking, choking, equal bad. Now, for parents, they all think, my kids wouldn't do that. And again, this is all in the book, but that is an important conversation to have. Don't choke. But things have changed from when I grew up because, I mean, my mother didn't have to tell me, don't let anyone choke you and don't choke others.   Kristina Supler: Oh having that that mental picture in my head right now, Having met Susan's mother, I'd love to envision this conversation.    Susan Stone: My mom was like, don't get pregnant.  Kristina Supler: Sure. Sure. And I think that that's, by and large, the conversation in my house as well. We're different generations, but it was still sort of that construct that, you know, the worst thing that could possibly happen or that could, you know, go wrong was unplanned pregnancy.    Susan Stone: and become a pothead. That was a big one.    Kristina Supler:Sure. Yeah.    Susan Stone: But parents today, the stakes are higher with fentanyl I really cannot make it. Yeah, I remember we did a podcast with Birdie light.    Kristina Supler: Yeah, yeah. That organization that is promoting education about that the fentanyl test strips super important thing to be aware of. So let me ask you this. You're trying to have that conversation and your your child is walking away saying, Mom, stop, I know this. Oh my gosh, leave me alone.    Susan Stone: That's okay.    Kristina Supler: What do you do? Do you leave him alone?    Susan Stone: Yeah. What are you going to do? Follow him in the room screaming like a lunatic? No, it's okay. They hear you.    Kristina Supler: Well, that's what I think as well. And again, I mean, our kids are different ages, but I do think that at all ages, kids are listening. They're like little sponges absorbing. And, you know, even if they pick up a little shred of what you're trying to instill in them, I think it you know, something will land and hopefully achieve the, you know, intended effect.   Susan Stone:  I do want to kind of recap and conclude one thing. Just because you have a conversation, you we're not God.Okay. As parents,  Kristina Supler:what do you mean by that?    Susan Stone: Meaning you can't necessarily stop something from happening.   Kristina Supler: Sure. Right.    Susan Stone: It can happen with the conversation. It can happen without a conversation. But at least if you're done your level best. It will help later with parental guilt. At least you can say I tried, man.   Kristina Supler: Yeah, parental guilt. That's an interesting one, because I experience it personally.I think we come across it in our jobs every day. And, yeah, I think that, you know, my goal is to not parent for, for my own selfish purposes, like, so that I don't feel guilt. But at the end of the day, let's be honest, life is hard, Life is unpredictable. We can't protect our kids from everything. And so hopefully we can at least arm our kids with information to make good choices.   Susan Stone: I'll tell you what wouldn't you as parents wouldn't rather have the difficult conversation that have to hire two lawyers who are a complete stranger, be the first ones to talk to students about the fact you're doing too much,    Kristina Supler: you're engaging in dangerous sexual behaviors. Your putting yourself in a bad situation at school with cheating.   Susan Stone: cheating. Yeah, right in battle. And, you know, don't use that chatGPT.   Kristina Supler: Oh, but It's so it's just there and it just spits it out beautifully.   Susan Stone: Oh, yeah It's a ticket out of college, you know that    Kristina Supler: Sure is. Sure is.    Susan Stone: Okay. I think we've covered it. What do you think?   Kristina Supler: Yeah, this has been a good conversation. I hope our listeners, all of you parents out there, I hope you've enjoyed it and we've given you some food for thought and we welcome your feedback as well.Thanks for joining us.    Thanks for listening to Real Talk with Susan and Kristina. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show so you never miss an episode and leave us a review so other people can find the content we share here. You can follow us on Instagram. Just search our handle at Stones Supler and for more resources, visit us online at Student Defense.kjk.com. Thank you so much for being a part of our real talk community. We'll see you next time.

On this episode of Real Talk, Susan and Kristina are joined by Dr. Christopher Thuber for an insider's guide to summer camp success.     Dr. Thurber has dedicated his professional life to improving how trusted adults nurture others and to enhancing the lives of adventurous youth. A graduate of Harvard and UCLA, Dr. Thurber has served as a psychologist and instructor at Phillips Exeter Academy since 1999. Over the past 25 years, he has been invited to lead workshops on five continents.   His best-selling family resource, The Summer Camp Handbook, was recently translated into Mandarin to help launch the youth camping movement in China. And his most recent book, The Unlikely Art of Parental Pressure, was described by The Atlantic as “a tour de force” and “the rare parenting book that respects both parents and children.”   Dr. Thurber's research and writing have focused on homesickness prevention and healthy parenting, especially in the domains of pressure and learning from mistakes.     LINKS MENTIONED IN THE SHOW: https://drchristhurber.com/  https://www.exeter.edu/faculty/christopher-austin-thurber  https://www.amazon.com/Yes-Your-Kid-Parents-Todays/dp/1637743807   SHOW NOTES:   Introduction and the importance of planning for children's summer camp (00:21) Introduction of Dr. Christopher Thurber (00:57) Ideal age for children to start attending overnight summer camps (1:53) Benefits of longer stays at camps and how they affect homesickness and personal growth (3:07) Insights into the positive impacts of summer camps on children's social skills and self-confidence (5:54) Choosing the right summer camp and what to look for (7:34) The role of camp advisors and the best time to start looking for summer camps (9:19) Indicators of a camp's quality (10:14) Tips on how to vet summer camps (11:46) Addressing homesickness and how to prepare your child for camp experiences (14:32) Impact of technology and social media on children's camp experiences (17:00) Guidance on managing communication with children at camp (19:19) Advice for parents on conversations to have with their children before sending them to camp for the first time (22:55) Importance of not making 'pickup deals' with children and fostering independence (24:24) Tips for selecting the right camp (26:00) Conclusion with final advice for parents on preparing for the camp season and fostering a positive experience for their children (28:00)   TRANSCRIPT: Susan Stone: Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Kristina Suler. We are full-time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real candid conversation. Susan Stone: Kristina, believe it or not, even though we're looking outside and there's a lot of snow out there, yuck. Did you know what time it is? Kristina Supler: Well, umm, if I'm thinking about what we're going to talk about today, I'm gonna guess that we're in the time of year that despite the snow outside, we have to start planning for our children's summers. Susan Stone: And especially summer camp. Believe it or not, if you want your child to go to one of the more, uh, popular summer camps, now is the time that you would register. And it's hard to think about it because like Santa Claus hasn't even come down that shoe. Kristina Supler: I know, and I'm particularly excited to speak with today's guest because I'm in, in my own family, wrestling with the idea of sending my son off to camp. And so this is, I'm really looking forward to today's talk. Susan Stone: We might learn a little something on real talk. Why don't you introduce our guests? Kristina Supler: Sure. Today we are joined by Dr. Chris Thurber, who has dedicated his professional life to improving how adults nurture others and enhance the lives of youth. A graduate of Harvard and UCLA, Dr. Thurber has served as a psychologist and instructor at Phillips Exeter Academy since 1999. Susan Stone: I've heard of it. Kristina Supler: Sure, he's written some books. His best-selling family resource is the Summer Camp Handbook, which has been translated into Mandarin. Believe it or not, and more recently, he has authored The Unlikely Art of Parental Pressure, which was described by the Atlantic as, “the rare parenting book that respects both parents and children”. Dr. Thurber's research and writing have focused on homesickness prevention, healthy parenting and helping children learn from mistakes. So Doctor Thurber, thanks for joining us today. Dr. Chris Thurber: Thanks for having me as a guest. Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Susan Stone: So it's so funny. I was thinking about summer camp and I still remember that when my oldest, whose birthday it is today, happy birthday, Alex. But when she was in 3rd grade, I went on a field trip to Maine with her and we looked at camps together. Kristina Supler: I can only imagine. Ohh camp touring. What a life. Susan Stone: Yeah, it was great. We had the best bonding time, but the question is for you. I chose for to be a rising 4th grader as a time to go to camp. We looked at camps when she was a rising 3rd grader. In your professional opinion, what is the best time to send students away for a summer camp and experience? And I just have a second part to that question. I chose a camp where I just threw my kid in for seven weeks because I was told on from a well-known Cleveland area psychologist that they do better with a longer stint because when you do a shorter stint, just as you're getting over homesickness, you're yanking them away. Thoughts? Dr. Chris Thurber: Well, in terms of what age a child should be at overnight summer camp and I, I do think that like any experience overnight timer camp is not for everyone. But I would say that in my experience as a parent, as a researcher, as a psychologist, there's probably a camp for everyone. And I think it's a perfect complement to the traditional classroom setting. So a way of boosting kids social and emotional learning, a way of increasing their social skills, their confidence, their sense of adventure. And there's wonderful research to support all of my life experience and anecdotal evidence. The age at which a young person might go to overnight camp for the first time depends a lot on their previous life experiences and a little bit on their personality, and I think the way I would answer that question is not by giving you a number like 7 years old or 8 years old or 9 years old. But I could say that most overnight camps uh would take children as young as seven or eight. So that tells you something about 150 years of trial and error has landed us at that age, but for particular child, it really is gonna depend on that parent or primary caregiver looking carefully at that child's readiness, which depends a lot on what previous experience that child has had away from home. I don't know for Alex, but I would imagine that she had spent overnight at a friend's house, or she'd been at her grandparents house without you there for a couple of days. And that's the perfect sort of preparation for multiple weeks at an overnight camp. Susan Stone: And do you have a thought about the second part of my question, 4 weeks versus 7 weeks or maybe even shorter depending on the camp? Dr. Chris Thurber: Well, I haven't in my experience noticed a difference in the factor that your friend cited, which is intensity of homesickness. In fact, this was what I wrote my dissertation on was homesickness and have followed the research that's been done since then, quite closely enough to know that there isn't a difference in, say, homesickness intensity between someone who's staying at camp for two weeks versus 4 weeks versus 7 weeks. That again, I would say your friend was right in that longer stays and I would say four weeks or more result in a more immersive experience for young people and that shorter stays just a few days are a good taste of what? Overnight camp is like, but aren't gonna create the kind of social bonds and result in the sort of self-reliance and you know, willingness to try new things that will happen with a longer stay. Susan Stone: That's exactly what I learned at that time. That you'd really takes a good chunk of time like 4 weeks as the minimum before you can really develop the friendships, develop leader styles, or even reinvent yourself. You could be that nerd at school and that fabulous person at camp. It's a chance of really defining yourself. Kristina Supler: Sounds like a good movie. Dr. Chris Thurber: It is very cool in that way. Well, it's a good movie and an even better experience. It's one we, you know, we underestimate sometimes. I think the social pressures that young people feel in elementary school even and you mentioned the unlikely art of parental pressure that I wrote with Hank Weissinger. We took a look at a lot of the research that's been done and were surprised ourselves to see how pernicious the effects of unhealthy pressure are for even elementary school age children and a lot of it is about pressure to conform, conform to dress, conform to preferences for favorite TV shows and how you present yourself online. So there are a lot of different domains of conformity, all of which happily evaporate at the best camps, and I think that that sort of reinventing yourself and boost in self-confidence can happen in as little as two weeks. I would also agree with you that a longer stay like 4 or 7 is going to strengthen that young person's confidence. Kristina Supler: Dr. Thurber, I'm curious to hear your thoughts for our listeners out there, parents with the child, let's just say in grade school age is irrelevant, but a child who's maybe only slept at grandparent's house or has had maybe one or two sleepovers with a friend family member, whomever, what advice would you give those parents for sort of the building blocks to help ease your child into this experience to go away from home? Dr. Chris Thurber: To have more of those, I mean, and we were at deficit because of having to quarantine many of us during the pandemic. So we have some catching up to do in providing healthy experiences for kids away from home. And just as you suggested in your question a day here a night here a couple days expanding to you know, two or three days, those sorts of experiences are what give a young person confidence in their ability to spend time away from home without their primary caregiver or caregivers and they can alert you as a parent to any sort of anxieties that need to be sorted out prior to a camp stay. Susan Stone: What should parents look for in and overnight camp? Kristina Supler: Hmm. That's a good question because no camp is gonna say yeah, send your kid here. We're OK. I mean, every camp has a long list of superlatives. Best, most fun. Exciting. You name it. You know, everyone's smiling on on the video on the website. What do you what should parents look for when vetting camps? Dr. Chris Thurber: You guys are cracking me up and it's such a great question. First of all, can I just say how happy I am that we're recording this in late November and hopefully it'll be provided to your listeners soon because as you said in the opener, this is the time. This is the time uh. I get asked to do podcasts all the time in May, right? Kristina Supler: But well, I know this was and this was Susan's idea, this idea, an experienced camp mom sender offer. Dr. Chris Thurber: Well, may all moms and dads be as pression as Susan and Kristina? Seriously, it's it's, you know, this is the time to be thinking about it. This is the time, as Christina said, to be preparing with practice time away from home and what you should look for in a summer camp is a great question because and you were joking about it, you go into a camp's website. Remember that that's marketing, and I'm not deriding camps or their websites, and it's important that they have them and there's great information on them. But remember, it's marketing and the the camps are gonna look similar. I mean, you can distinguish the all boys camps from the all girls camps, from the all gender camps, from the Coed camps and the ones that have horseback riding from the ones that don't have horseback riding. And that is information that you can call from a website, but that's not telling you anything about the quality. So I would say three things that I think parents need to look for and you have listeners all around the world, but let's bring it down to North America. In Canada, there are provincial camp associations like for Ontario and for British Columbia, et cetera. In the United States, we have the American Camp Association. These are the accrediting bodies for camps, and it doesn't guarantee that a particular camp is a great match for your kid. But these associations are a first step that can't that parents should look for is the camp accredited to be an operation? It needs to be certified by the Board of Health in most states, so you can assume that that's the case, but you can ask to see their, you know, Board of Health cert. Then I would say by whom are you accredited knowing that accreditation happens once every few years and it is a way of saying at the time this camp was visited by trained peers and the camp world it it met these minimum criteria? Or maybe exceeded them then is where it gets interesting, and that's why Jon Malinowski and I wrote the Summer Camp Handbook, because there are lots of accredited camps and some of them I wouldn't ever send my own child to and some of them I would be glad to. So I think what you need to look for is first and foremost after it's passed Board of Health and accreditation. Is this a place where there's a good deal of tenure among the staff now? Potentially, the director who was there for 30 years, just retired, and so the new directors only been there for a couple of years. But you wanna look over time? What's the average tenure of the director? What is the average tenure for the other senior staff, assistant directors, program directors, waterfront directors and how long did the staff who work there generally work there, and that tenure tells you a lot about the loyalty and the spirit and the consistency that will exist at that camp, which I think are all important contributors to a young person having a really positive experience. Next is where do they get their staff and how do they train them? And this is really my wheelhouse because yeah. Susan Stone: I remember that because the camp I had sent my children to through a lot of counselors that they receive from Australia and England, and I remember because they made my kids eat Vegemite and they thought that was hilarious, but they were great. They really had some really fun and they were learning the fun, cute accents and they love it and I don't know if you agree with this, but I really like that the camp we ended up selecting had a therapist and staff to deal with the issues and it really was quite helpful. Dr. Chris Thurber: Yeah, I endorsed that wholeheartedly. And I think that people in that position, a mental health professional who's part of a camp, often also participate in the staff training. So as I was saying, where the staff from where they how are they hired? How are they trained that that's really crucial, right? I mean, the centerpiece of the camp experience is gonna be your child's new relationship with this young adult surrogate caregiver. Will they make peer friends? Yes, of course. But who influences the experience more than anyone else are the young adult leaders. And so you wanna know as much as you can about them. Kristina Supler: That's a really great piece of advice for parents out there listening to this though, to look at the tenure of staff and employees, how many come back year after year because that speaks volumes for the nature of the experience, happy staff then hopefully translates to happy campers. So I love that. Dr. Chris Thurber: It definitely does. Susan Stone: Now, I don't want to date myself in my next question. Do you remember the Alan Sherman song? Hello mudda. Hello fada. I won't sing for everybody. It's like one of my favorite songs. It's a really funny song. Alan Sherman. Hello mudda. Hello fada FADDUH. Great song for you listeners out there. I would play it, but it talks about homesickness and  you know, I remember when I sent my kids to camp. I I thoughts homesickness was normal, so when I got the first I miss you mom letter. I knew it was temporary and then by the time you picked them up, they're like, oh, I wanna stay in there crying that they're leaving. However, my kids were young and went to camp pre COVID and pre the mental health issues that Kristina and I wrestle with every day. I mean, I believe that kids are wrestling with social media. My kids did not have cell phones when they went to camp. It was unthinkable that a young child or a middle schooler would have a cell phone. Kristina Supler: That's so interesting that you say that, Susan. I hadn't thought about that, and imagining well my daughter, I mean, I guess I have a direct experience with this, but I hadn't really tied it to the context of our practice. When she's away at camp in the camp experience, she has every summer's two weeks of sleep away and there's no electronics or anything like that. And she's fine. I mean, she adores her camp experience, but for many students who are so tied to their devices, social media, all those connections to then have them ripped away, it makes the transition all the more difficult. And pile on top of that homesickness. It actually is a lot. It's a tall, emotional order for adolescence. Susan Stone: So how do you know Doctor Thurber between normal homesickness, that a parent should go, huh that'll pass, versus something's curious I need to check in on this and how. What is the appropriate way to check in on this? It is not get on a plane I assume and pull your kid out immediately. But is it? Dr. Chris Thurber: No, absolutely not. Susan Stone: I could be wrong. Dr. Chris Thurber: No, you're not wrong. Again, you're right. You're also again present in, saying that home sickness is normal because it absolutely is. Of course, it varies in intensity from one person to another, but adults miss things about home when they're away as well, like on a business trip or something like that. So right, so look, the and this is really essential preparation in addition to what I said earlier about some practice time away from home. But letting your child know that you expect that there will be some things they miss about home. Maybe it'll be home cooking. Maybe it'll be you, or if there's another parent in the household, maybe it'll be the comforts of their room. The dog, dog, sibling, whatever it might be and you know it's different things for different people. But with practice time away from home and with an understanding that this is an absolutely normal phenomenon. And I tell kids. Look, there's something about home you miss that means there's something about home you love. That's wonderful. And all those things that you love are gonna be there when camp wraps up. So love this while you're at camp, love this experience. Make yourself at home here and look forward to what you're going to return to. You know, it's fantastic, however. There are instances when you know the intensity of home sickness is getting in the way of that child's enjoying activities and participating in other ways at camp. It's getting in the way of their making new friends and it's getting in the way of their eating and sleeping and well-trained staff are gonna know. How to spot that? Here's a kid who isn't eating well, sleeping well, not participating, not making friends. So those sort of primary functions of a camper when they're, you know, a day or two, we're going to make it if it's that extreme on a chronic basis, that camper is not eating well, sleeping well. Connecting participating. The first thing that's gonna happen again with at a camp with a well-trained staff is someone at camp is gonna contact you and say, here's the situation. Here's how we've been managing it. Let's talk about options, but it would be a huge mistake for any parent to preemptively respond to what is in 99.9% of cases, a normative, homesick letter by getting themselves to the camp and robbing their child of such an important developmental experience. Kristina Supler: Do phone calls help or hurt a child sort of weather the storm of homesickness. Dr. Chris Thurber: Unequivocally, they hurt until you've passed at least the two-week mark and then phone calls, if it's a four or seven week experience, are appropriate if they are scheduled not as a treatment for homesickness, not you missed your mom or you miss your dad or and so let's get them on the phone. It's never a treatment for homesickness and it if it's ever used by camp directors who don't know the research, haven't been to one of my workshops or parents who, you know, haven't read this summer camp handbook. And again, these are loving, well-intentioned people, but it is absolutely the wrong thing to do. If it's a scheduled contact after the two-week Mark that's used simply as a way to keep in touch, great. Even better though, letter writing. Because think about the difference you have to ponder You have to personalize. You have to reflect and then to get a response you have to wait and that's really good for kids. They don't have enough practice. Susan Stone: Delayed gratification.   Kristina Supler: Though I will say that all the the shishi camps now, there's still some letter writing, but then there's the there's emails and it's not, you know, unfettered access, but you have to wait a day for your response. So there's a little bit of delayed gratification, but it's not like a week for the post to be delivered. Susan Stone: Oh, what about care packages? Because I know that I remember this like it was yesterday. What started out as send a few pieces of candy, then became my kids were saying this one got this and this one got that, and you don't love me if you don't send me this and…. Kristina Supler: The status thing, it almost turned into as well. The comparisons who got what. Susan Stone: And I was always on the bottom. Does that surprise you? Kristina Supler: I doubt that very much. Susan Stone: And I'm telling you I sent some good care packages. Thoughts? Dr. Chris Thurber: Well, if you know if, if you're bored this summer, you could send me some care packages just to my home because I won't be. But now I see it it that is the problem you just described it and most camps are moving to a policy of no care packages. Sending your child to camp investing your you know time and your money. Although many camps also offer financial aid, you did a wonderful thing by involving Susan, your child, in the search for what camp is it going to be? It gave Alex decision control. She felt involved in the process. That is a wonderful way to diminish the intensity of homesickness. So without having a conversation, the two of us, you did so many things well. And I would say if the camp now is not allowing care packages, they're doing something well, because having your child go to camp is a way of showing you care in all caps, bold exclamation point, italics underlined. This is a way of showing you care and the camp has wonderful food and snacks and lots of things to do. So you don't need to send care packages and that makes it easier for everybody, not just in the name of equity and preventing this kind of comparison, but also in the name of hygiene, you know, camps that allow care packages. Susan Stone: Or lack thereof. Dr. Chris Thurber: Ohh. Or exactly? Susan Stone: I mean, I came back and saw some yellow teeth. I doubt we're brushed, but you know that's part of it. Dr. Chris Thurber: Yeah, well, there's that. There's that, but there's also raccoons and mice and squirrels and all the other, you know, creepy crawlies that also love your chocolate chip cookies. Susan Stone: Yeah. Who wouldn't. Kristina Supler: I'm curious, are there any conversations that sort of come to mind that you encourage parents to have with their children before sending them off? Probably the first time or so to camp. Dr. Chris Thurber: So it's it, you know, it's normal for expect that your child is gonna express some kind of trepidation. It could be, what if I feel homesick? Or what if I don't like this? Or what if I'm not making friends, but the response that I coach parents to have when there's some kind of expression of, you know, concern is or anticipatory anxiety? Hey, I'm glad I'm glad we're talking about this. I think there will be some sort of adjustment because it's a new place with new traditions, different menu of activities and food. And of course, like that takes some getting used to. It's also part of the excitement is that it's different, different from home. It's different from school and I've every confidence that you will be able to push through those periods of adjustment those days when you feel like, ohh, you wish you had another friend or you're missing something from home or you don't like what's served for lunch. That's part of the experience and then you know, so that's the conversation to have is one that expresses optimism, optimism and confidence. The conversation not to have at any cost in any circumstance is the pickup deal, so saying, well, if you don't like it, I'll come and get you. Susan Stone: Umm, Nope, not happening. Dr. Chris Thurber: If you feel homesick, yeah. Because you have, you have just, you know, incapacitated the camp staff, whatever they would say to coach your child through a normal bout of homesickness is immediately surpassed by your offer on the table, which is there something you don't like? I'm gonna come and get you. What we wanna be doing as loving parents is saying, you know, there's something you don't like or if you're uncomfortable, I want you to learn the coping skills to manage that right. I mean, and you don't have to use those words, but when you say you can persevere, the camp staff are there to help you write to me about how you feel. And I'll write back. You know, this is this is what we want to say. Without ever, ever putting on the table a pickup deal it just it it it's horrible. Kristina Supler: But what's interesting is that essentially what I'm hearing you say, reading between the lines are listening between the lines. It is parents don't insert yourself in the process. So no, I'll come get you if you're miserable. Don't insist on phone. Let your child have an opportunity to excel and navigate conflict and emotions on on the child's own footing. Dr. Chris Thurber: Yes, PS:, we deserve a break. As you know from full-time parenthood, so enjoy yourself. Susan Stone: Amen. Well, if you can't do the pre summer before the summer tour, which I have to say I could do for my first child. But then two and three didn't have that luxury. What is the advice you give parents right now, end of November, early December, to help give students the choice of camps. Would it be helpful because you really can't do a camp visit now? Camps are closed. So would you say have them look online and watch those great videos and then maybe have a call with the camp director? Dr. Chris Thurber: That would be perfect. I think they're probably some things you can do before you go online, such as, you know, open ended conversation about what do you imagining you'd like to do at camp and are you imagining that you would like to be at an A Coed camp or an all gender camper or voice camper or girls camp? Are you imagining you would like to be in the mountains close to the shore on a lake. So you can throw some of those parameters out there, and if you have camp experience, you can also describe the camp where you at and what that was like and then you can go online and do a bit of a virtual tour, but the American Camp Association website and kids camps and a few other places, if you Google databases of summer camps, you're gonna be able to find keeping in mind that the American Camp Association database and the provincial camps associations databases are the only ones that camps are not paying an extra fee for to advertise. So yes, it's all marketing. Yes, it's all advertising and yes, you have to pay to be a member of the American Camp Association or the Ontario Camp Association, but you don't have to pay anything extra to be listed. You do have to pay extra to be listed in these other online listings, so you may not get a complete list, but you can narrow it down and then you can start as you said, going on to the websites and taking a peek. And it's wonderful to be able to talk to the camp director. One other thing that I would ask the camp director is could you give me the names of some families local to me who have kids at camp right now or have in the last few years. And the reason I would phrase it like that families local to me is twofold. One, if you say give me the names of some families, they're going to give you the names of the two families that are their personal friends who loved camp the most and are an extension of the marketing. If you say families local to you, that means that they can't hand pick the two families to zoom with, their local to whatever town you're in. Plus, if they are families local to you, this is the best thing getting families together, whether it's during this winter break or you know sometime in January, February or maybe the March or April break. But you know, so the kids can talk camp. You know, I'm talking about a returning camper and the parents can chat about what helped their child and what helped their own adjustment, because of course they're gonna miss their kids. But I think that's wonderful. So just add that as the cherry on top to your virtual tour idea. Susan Stone: I remember doing that by the way, calling the parents were local. I did and I also used, they were great, a camp advisor where I spoke to the person and said what I was interested and they generated a list and it was free. So parents should know. You know, I don't know how you feel about camp advisors. There are people who take their fees from the camps and not the parents. Dr. Chris Thurber: Mm-hmm. Right. Susan Stone: Umm. Is that something you would recommend as well? Dr. Chris Thurber: I think that as long as you recognize what it is that is being paid for, either by you or the camp which is access camp advisors can be enormously helpful in meeting a family, meeting a child, helping that child cull down you know their interests or listen to what their interests are and cull down the list of camps, knowing that you're going to be getting a choice or be offered a few camps that are already on that camp advisor's list. The pro being that camp advisor has personally vetted those camps, so they've done some of the background research for you. The downside being the list is limited to the camps that paid to work with that advisor or you know it's a limited by the advisor's geographic scope, but it can be enormously helpful and wonderful dimension to finding camps. You do your virtual camp tour and then talk to a camp advisor. You start to get some like convergent validity if you're coming up with the same two or three camp names, right? Kristina Supler: Absolutely. Look, Doctor Thurber, this has been a real treat. I think that you've given us some really, really great information and food for thought. Dr. Chris Thurber: Oh good. Kristina Supler: For parent listeners out there and I'm glad that we were able to talk summer camp, but gives us something to look forward to on this cold snowy day. Susan Stone: Kristina, do you think that we could go to summer camp? Kristina Supler: I wish. Spa weekend. That's our summer camp, right? Dr. Chris Thurber: There you go, Club Med. Susan Stone: A spa hour, if we're lucky. Susan Stone: Thank you, Dr. Thurber. We really loved having you. Dr. Chris Thurber: Thank you both. Susan Stone: We really loved having you. Dr. Chris Thurber: I love being here. Happy holidays. Kristina Supler: Thanks for listening to Real Talk with Susan and Kristina. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show so you never miss an episode and leave us a review so other people can find the content we share here. You can follow us on Instagram, just search our handle @StoneSupler and for more resources, visit us online at studentdefense.kjk.com. Thank you so much for being a part of our Real Talk community. We'll see you next time.  

Are you familiar with the term "Turkey Drop"? This phenomenon occurs when college freshmen return home for Thanksgiving and often part ways with their hometown sweethearts. In a special Thanksgiving episode of Real Talk, hosts Susan and Kristina are joined by three students from a prominent midwestern university. Each student candidly shares their personal experiences of going through breakups during this period, offering valuable insights into the complexities and emotions leading up to these moments of transition.     LINKS MENTIONED IN THE SHOW: https://www.amazon.com/Yes-Your-Kid-Parents-Todays/dp/1637743807     SHOW NOTES: ·       Introduction to the show and hosts, Susan Stone and Kristina Supler (00:01) ·       Discussion on the excitement of the first Thanksgiving when students come home from college (00:14) ·       Introduction of the "Turkey drop" concept and personal experiences (00:38) ·       Introduction of three student guests: Laney, Jenna, and Morgan (01:41) ·       Discussion on the reasons behind the "Turkey drop" (06:02) ·       Sharing locations with friends and partners for safety and convenience (08:59) ·       Experiences post "Turkey drop" and current relationships with ex-partners (16:04) ·       Advice for freshmen with high school relationships (17:49) ·       Suggestion for a holiday gift: the book "Yes, your Kid" (19:35) ·       Conclusion and thanks to the guests (20:10) ·       Outro and promotion for the show (20:46)   TRANSCRIPT: Susan Stone: Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Kristina Suler. We are full-time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real candid conversation. Susan Stone: So in anticipation of Thanksgiving, Kristina, I wanted to do a really fun podcast, but I have to tell you that I know parents who have the freshmen who went off to college. The parents are so excited because there's nothing like that. First Thanksgiving when your kid comes home from college one day. You'll say that to me. I remember when you told me that. Kristina Supler: I'm sure I don't doubt it. Susan Stone: But not all is Turkey and pumpkins because some kids come home from college and they do the Turkey drop, which is when college kids come home and break up with their hometown, honey. But Kristina, you have an interesting view of this and actually so do I, but I want to hear what you say. Kristina Supler: I did not do the Turkey drop, so I married my high school sweetheart. I didn't come home from Thanksgiving and do the breakup that you see everywhere. And now I'm married and have two kids, Susan Stone: And I also want to share, and I hope I don't embarrass her, that my own daughter did not do the Turkey drop and she just married her high school sweetheart this summer. So it doesn't always happen. But with that said, I'm hoping we're going to get into some juicy conversation about it. Why don't you introduce our guests? Kristina Supler: Yes. We are really excited today to be joined by three students from a wonderful Midwestern university that we're very familiar with. We're joined today by Laney, Jenna, and Morgan, who are going to share with us their perspectives on the Turkey drop. So ladies, without giving away anything that would reveal your identities, tell us a little bit about yourselves and what you're doing at school and really what you know about the Turkey drop Susan Stone: And identify yourselves because of course our listeners can only hear you and not see you. So say it's Jenna, it's Laney. Jenna: I'm Jenna. I am currently applying to law school right now, which is exciting and going through the process. Yes, and I did participate in the Turkey drop my freshman year of college. Susan Stone: What happened? Jenna: Pretty much verbatim what the Turkey drop would be. Two days after Thanksgiving, he came over to my family Thanksgiving party and then I was like, this is just not it anymore. And then two days later we broke up and now he's dating my best friend from high school. Susan Stone: No, well, there you go. Jenna, what question? Were you both freshmen at different colleges or was he your hometown and still in high school? Jenna: He was from my hometown, but we were both at separate colleges. We went separate colleges, so did long distance for the first three months and then called it quits. Susan Stone: Was it hard for you? I was just going to ask. Jenna: I was upset a little bit, but I was very much ready for the relationship to be over. But I feel like when you're date for a while, it's always a little bit upsetting, but definitely. Well, it's Susan Stone: We'll it's always over until you meet the one, right? Right. Yeah. Laney, what about you? Lany: Okay, so my story's a little bit different. Well, I'm Laney and I am a marketing major, and I did the Turkey drop second or my second year of college, so my sophomore year. So we actually made it through the freshman year, but then sophomore year we did it for a while. I just kind of was like, I don't even know. I was kind of just bored. I needed something new and then I was seeing all these new faces at school, so I just decided to participate in the Turkey drop and it happened. Well, he knew it was coming that I was going to break up with him. So when we were from the same hometown, but we went to two separate colleges, but he knew I was going to break up with him, so he just made me do it over the phone because he didn't want to have to see me in person to do it. I think he was embarrassed. Susan Stone: I think that's reasonable, don't you? Yeah, I mean, Lany: Yeah, it's reasonable. We ended up talking after that, but we dated for about four years, so I feel like it would've been a little more mature if he let me do it in person. Kristina Supler: Oh, that's a long relationship to just have a breakup over the phone actually. I agree with you. Lany: Yeah, I agree. Yeah, but then we ended up talking later over Thanksgiving, I think at Christmas break is when we actually ended up talking in person. But nope, just over Thanksgiving break I went for a drive and just broke up with him over the phone. Kristina Supler: Morgan, what about you Morgan? Morgan: I know. So I participated in the Turkey job my freshman year of college and we went to two different colleges. We dated all through high school and I don't know, I kind of just got to college and realized there's more to do in the world than be with my high school boyfriend, and I just decided that it was becoming a lot, having to keep up with him all the time, and I thought it was time to go our separate ways. Susan Stone: And I mean, was the grass greener on the other side of the fence? Morgan: Yes, I will say I think that's so bad, but I think it was a long time coming Halloween and he surprised me on Halloween right before we went home for Thanksgiving and it was fine, except I think I realized that was when I wasn't the most excited to be seeing him. I was excited for a fun Halloween with my new friends that I had met at college. So it was definitely that for me that I realized I think I was better off just doing my own thing and being more independent than having to rely on my high school boyfriend. Susan Stone: Well, that leads me to the question for all three of you, and maybe we just kind of go in reverse order. What do you think the main reasons are for the Turkey drop? Morgan: I think for me, it wasn't even like I met someone new at school that I was interested in. I think it was more just realizing I didn't want to have to be, I don't know. I wanted to be able to go out and not have to worry about texting my boyfriend where I was, who I was with, what I was doing. And that's kind of what it was for me freshman year because I know for me, I really loved my school, but for him it was a bit of a different story. So it was just two different dynamics and I think it was just time for us to part ways and meet new people.  Lany: I would say almost the same thing. Yeah, we went to two very different schools. He was playing a sport in college, the division one sport, so he was super busy and we were just living two completely different lives and I was just meeting a bunch of people and we're in a sorority, so taking people to date parties, it kind of just got to the point where I just wanted to be able to go to more date parties with boys and bring them to mine. And I don't know, just our schools were very different, so I feel like I would be doing things completely different than he would on the weekends. He would be going to games and I would be going out and stuff. Just meeting a lot of people.  Jenna: And then I think for me was our relationship was fine, except I think that once we both went our separate ways to college, we were a little too okay without each other and we never went to visit each other, never really cared to. So I think it was more of a just fizzling out of a relationship because we just really kind of realized that we were very okay without each other and didn't really need that anymore. Susan Stone: So I have a question, Jenna, you mentioned not wanting to have to go out and then check in with your boyfriend when you got home. I am curious, how common is it that you share your locations and you check in with each other after a night out? Are all college students doing that now or is that something that only parents do to keep an eye on their students? Jenna: It's actually funny. I still have his location. He still has mine really, because we just never unshared them. But I think, all my friends have my locations and stuff, so I think it's really common now just for a lot of people to have your location, not necessarily making sure you're in a certain place or whatever, more for safety purposes and stuff and just because fun to see where everyone is. I do think it's kind of normal now if you guys would say the same. Yeah, definitely.  Susan Stone: I just want to point out that I always disagree with parents about locations. I'm one of the few parents I know who does not share location.  Kristina Supler: You always say Susan, I don't want to know. Let them lead their lives. I want to live my life. Susan Stone: Well, parents say to me, but it's a safety thing, and I respond back, what are you going to do? Students: That's so true. Yeah, that is very true. Susan Stone: And I also don't want to know my husband's location, and you know what? I don't want him to know mine. I am. Amen. Yeah, I just feel like I got to be a level of trust. Do you think, do you view it because I know all our clients sharing location is a thing, so do you view it as a way of forming intimacy with a friend or a boyfriend or a safety issue? Because I find it creepy. Lany: I feel like I use it a lot more for my friends than I do with my family. Like you said, what are you going to do about it? Yeah, if I'm going out and it's two in the morning, my mom's sleeping, she's not looking at my location. But I feel like for friends, it's super nice, like, oh, we're at one bar, but I don't know where my friends are. You just look at their location. If sometimes in the bars your phone's not working or people just aren't on them, it's good to just be able, oh, they're here. I can go there. Or someone's picking you up from class and you can just check to see how far they are. I feel like it's honestly very useful. Convenient. Convenient for roommates, but I'm not ever really looking at my mom or dad's location. Well, my dad will share it. I feel like locations be a good thing until you take it. If someone was to take it out of pocket, I feel like if you had a boyfriend really tracking you and keeping tabs on where you are, then I feel like that's just taken to the next level. But I agree. I think I use my location more for just us. Yeah, for sure.  Susan Stone: Interesting. Kristina Supler: Yeah. I'm wondering for, so the three of you have all done the Turkey Drop. Do you have any friends who have done it but then maybe reunited with the dropped person later? Student:  I do. I have a friend who did. I don't remember if she did Turkey drop or if it was over Christmas break, one of the two. But then, yeah, they reunited back over summer, but then broke up two months after that. So I think it was for the best that the Turkey drop should have just stayed. Susan Stone: Do you think you could manage, if you sort of were on the fence, okay, that you realized, I do love this person, but I don't want to be timed down. Could you remain open or is that too much? Student: I feel like that's the point. Student: I agree with that. I feel like I was to the point where I was like, if I'm going to break up with him, I just like it's going to happen. I didn't want to, don't know. I feel like I was past the point of making the effort, trying new things of if I would do open or anything. It was kind of just past that point. She was staying open.  Student: I think that I feel like I was already kind of doing that. We really didn't. I never texted him the whole time when I was out. I did my own thing. I usually really never knew where he was or what he was doing, which just goes to my point where I think we were a little bit too comfortable with being away from each other.  Student: I think mine was more of kind of random. I remember calling my mom, she's like, why are you breaking up with him? I didn't really have a reason. I feel like it was just not being able to see him. We lived in the same neighborhood, so I saw him all the time before every single day. So I think just kind of growing apart and nothing really happened, so it was hard, but I feel like, I don't know what I'm even going with this, but I feel like if we would've went to the same schools, we probably would've stayed together.  Student: I feel like when it begins to feel like you have to text them and you have to tell them things, you kind of just know this is fizzling out. We're going to go our separate ways. When something exciting happens and you're like, they're not the first person you want to go talk to about it, you just don't feel like it, then it's probably a time to Oh, yeah. Yeah.  Susan Stone: Ladies, you are on Real Talk with Susan and Kristina, so I'm going to ask you something and I want you to be real. The breakup, was it in your minds at all? Oh my gosh, we're heading into the holiday season, have to buy gifts, spend time with their families, all of that. Was that on your radar or no? Student: No, but we already started buying gifts for each other for Christmas, and I was like, I got him $200 raybans. So I was like, okay, I'm just going to return them. And he was like, no, let's meet up in a month, go to lunch and exchange our gifts. And I was like, okay. So I ended up giving my ex-boyfriend $200 Raybans, and I got a plastic Starbucks cup and Susan Stone: He cheaped out on you?  Student: Yeah, that was definitely something.  Student: Yeah, so I kind of have a similar thing. My birthday was in September, so for my birthday he bought me tickets. I was a really big Louisville football fan. He's big Kentucky, so the big game was over Christmas break, so for my birthday in September, he had bought me those tickets. I don't even know if he had bought them yet. So we were supposed to go over Christmas break, so I never even got my birthday present because then we broke up and then I didn't even get the tickets. Shoot. I know. So not Christmas gifts, but I didn't even get my birthday.  Student: I feel like I really, I was just so kind of in my head just over, I knew it was kind of over. I don't really think I thought much into Christmas gifts or anything because I just knew when I got home and saw him again, I was just going to cut it off. I didn't want to do it over the phone because we had been dating for a while and I wanted to try to be respectful about it.  Susan Stone: If you saw the person now, would it be friendly, awkward? What's the state? How do you feel about that person now? Student: So my ex-boyfriend's actually in my high school friend group from home. I definitely see him more often than not when I'm home, but I feel like it's not really awkward because it definitely was at first for sure. But now at this point, I mean we've seen each other over breaks. We just kind of say hi. We're not really small talking, but we're still civil and friendly with one another. Susan Stone: That's nice. Student: Yeah, that's how I am too. Like I mentioned earlier, we live in the same neighborhood, so I definitely run into him every once in a while. It's not really awkward at all. We still, every once in a while we'll text and catch up. I dated him for so long, so we're still good friends and we'll catch up, but I was really close with his family, so sometimes when I go home for a night or something, I live pretty close to school, I'll see his family and I'll go over to his family's house and hang out with them when he's not there. I was just so close with him, his parents and then his older sisters I was super close with. So it's not awkward at all for me.  Student: Same for me. We're in the same high school friend group too, so we saw each other a few times over the summer and it's never really weird. If I have my friends over, I invite him. We ended things very on good terms, so it's all good. Susan Stone: How many of you are big sisters in your sorority? All: We all, yeah, we all are. Yeah. Susan Stone:  Are your littles freshmen? All: They're they're juniors. Susan Stone: Oh, okay. So if you had advice for a freshman who you knew had a hometown, honey, what would be your advice Student:  I think that it's always worth a try, but don't go in with the highest expectations because nine times out of 10 it doesn't work out. And that's fine and you'll be fine.  Student: Yeah, I mean, yeah, that I guess is better advice. Go in it with it, but also don't miss out on things. Go to the date parties. If your boyfriend trusts you not to do anything, then I think it's totally fair to be friends with a guy as just friends and go to his date parties and stuff. I feel like when me and my boyfriend broke up, I met so many more guys. I wasn't, there wasn't even a guy that I liked. You just meet so many more people when you don't have a boyfriend because you get invited to those things. I guess that's for being in sororities and fraternities, but just don't miss out on things because of a relationship. And if you are, then it's probably not meant to be.  Student: I definitely agree. I think freshman year is one of the most important times to meet new friends and figure out what you want to be doing and what you like and the people you want to be around. And I think that it's like you need to make sure that having a boyfriend isn't holding you back from those types of things because those are the friendships you're going to look on to later on and be so happy that you met those girls and you went to that thing. You went to that event, you went out that night just because, I don't know, you don't want to miss out on stuff like that. And if a boyfriend's holding you back from that, it's probably time to let him go.  Student: Agreed. Susan Stone: So Kristina, I have a suggestion for these lovely ladies. What they should get their parents for Christmas or for the holidays? Kristina Supler: Oh, you are the most clever of them all. Ms. Stone, what is it? What do you think it is? Oh my gosh, look at that.  Susan Stone: I think on Amazon, all of your friends should get a copy of Yes, your Kid. What parents Need To Know About Today's Teens and Sex - Co-written by yours truly, because there's some new topics about the new sex ed in here, like rough sex, choking, plan B. We know what you really do, guys, so I think you should let your parents know. What do you think, Kristina? Kristina Supler:  Check it out. It's a good primer for parents on what I mean, what you all know, but what we're seeing when people come to us for various types of matters and what's really going on college campuses these days, which is shocking to some parents, but not to us because it's what we do. But it was really such a treat speaking with you all. Thank you so much for joining us, Laney, Jenna, and Morgan, and hopefully this was a fun little episode for our listeners to just talk about the Turkey drop. Thanks for listening to Real Talk with Susan and Kristina. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show so you never miss an episode and leave us a review so other people can find the content we share here. You can follow us on Instagram, just search our handle @StoneSupler and for more resources, visit us online at studentdefense.kjk.com. Thank you so much for being a part of our Real Talk community. We'll see you next time.

On this episode of Real Talk, Susan and Kristina are joined by Dr. Debby Herbenick to discuss their new book, Yes, Your Kid: What Parents Need to Know About Today's Teens and Sex. Covering various aspects of sexuality and sexual education including the challenges of working with students in crisis situations, the evolving definitions of what constitutes "sex," and the prevalence of rough sex practices, specifically choking, in contemporary sexual experiences. In this episode, they touch on the confusion and lack of comprehensive sexual education, and how the digital age and online media have further complicated these issues. The conversation highlights how different individuals may have varying definitions and perspectives on what constitutes sexual activity.   Pre-Order Our Book "Yes, Your Kid" Today!   Links Mentioned in the Show ·       https://www.amazon.com/Yes-Your-Kid-Parents-Todays/dp/1637743807 ·       https://sexualhealth.indiana.edu/   Show Notes: Book announcement (00:25) Introduction of Dr. Debby Herbenick (1:50) Book summary (3:10) Why should parents buy this book? (4:10) The different perspectives during the writing process (6:10) How the research is different from the legal perspective (9:57) How the types of cases change over time (13:30) How sex changes (15:00) How choking has grown in prevalence (18:10) How well are students educated about sex (19:40) How the internet changes student education (21:40) How the definition of sex changes over time (22:20) How different groups of people define sex (25:45) The goal of being an “askable” parent “(27:50) The importance of providing information to kids and students (30:00) What was your favorite part of writing this book (32:05) How sex on the spectrum is discussed (34:50) Current trends of mental health in students (36:30)

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler discuss the digital landscape, what parents should be aware of and how to promote healthy offline connections.   Show Notes: ·         Discussing the digital landscape, what's new and what parents should be aware of (00:45) ·         What platforms are commonly used? (1:20) ·         Description and explanation of Snapchat (2:15) ·         What can parents do at home (3:20) ·         Cell phones and driving (4:35) ·         How phones effect sleep (5:20) ·         How to help promote healthy offline connections (6:10) ·         How the pandemic effected digital habits (7:15) ·         Offline activities (8:30) ·         Being aware of online bullying (9:20) ·         Social media and FOMO (9:50) Transcript Susan Stone: Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Christina Soupler. We are full-time moms and attorneys, bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real, candid conversation. After school time is happening, and I think you and I need to explore what we saw last year to helpfully give our listeners some food for thoughts this school year for younger kids, the middle school and high school crowd.   Kristina Supler: Today we're going to talk about the digital landscape and what parents need to know and what's going on out here.   Susan Stone: Now what's new? And what's new today will not be new, it changes every day. So I think our first piece of advice to parents is stay on it.   Kristina Supler: And don't give up hope. I mean so often we hear, I don't know, I'm not good with tech these kids in their phones, who knows. But I mean at the end of the day, you don't have to know the intricacies of how to post the most perfect video. You just have to understand the platforms that kids are using and generally what's going on and what are the dangers of those platforms really.   Susan Stone: So to prepare, I called my rising senior and said, "What is everyone on your grade on?" I thought I'd start there and I wasn't surprised. We knew the answers.   Kristina Supler: TikTok and Snapchat.   Susan Stone: TikTok and Snapchat. Everybody is both viewing and making videos on TikTok, TikTok, is trending really well. And that B-roll, B-real, right, Kristina?   Kristina Supler: B-real.   Susan Stone: B-real. Real film. Got it. Where they would send a notification and then you have to take a quick picture. What was the purpose of that? That was a new one.   Kristina Supler: I guess to be spontaneous and be your authentic self versus having these perfectly choreographed videos. And anyway, it's always changing. But there's ways for parents to find out what's going on out there.   Susan Stone: Word of advice on snapchat. So the whole idea of parents for those of you who don't know is that you send a snap, I guess that's what it's called, and then it disappears. Does it?   Kristina Supler: I would say yes and no or sometimes. I mean, it seems like every case that we have there's an issue with snapchat and sometimes messages are recoverable, believe it or not, through backup files and other means and forensic analysis. But often they're not. And, you know, again, sometimes it's a blessing that messages can't be recovered. And then you know, sometimes you're like, oh, I would do anything if we could track down these messages. So, you know, I think snapchat it's just one of those things where the bottom line should be, you don't know what's going to happen. Just be thoughtful about what you put out into the universe.   Susan Stone: And don't assume just because you send a snap to somebody that it is going to disappear before someone has had a time, a chance to take a screenshot. Show and reproduce and send off that snap. Careful what you snap in a snap.   Kristina Supler: Amen, there you go. What about, I mean, what can parents do at home to educate their children about online safety and then model healthy behaviors?   Susan Stone: Well, I don't like lecturing. It never works. I think modeling healthy behaviors,   Kristina Supler: I totally agree.   Susan Stone: And I just share one pet peeve that I see all the time. I hate phones at the dinner table.   Kristina Supler: I agree. And in my house, we're actually very strict about that because if we weren't, there absolutely be a cell phone and then iPad at the dinner table. There'd be a YouTube video playing in the background and my husband and I was like, turn it off, turn it off. And it's just sort of like, eyeroll, okay, mom, fine. But if we didn't make them do it, they wouldn't do it.   Susan Stone: Well, let's be clear. Adults are just as bad about looking at their phone.   Kristina Supler:  Absolutely. Oh my gosh. Absolutely. It's how often do I know I catch myself all the time. I'm in a conversation, I'm listening and then I pull out my phone and I'm still kind of listening, but I'm also like totally engrossed in my Instagram feed and it's just you don't even realize how splintered your attention is.   Susan Stone: Do not look at your phone while you're driving that is in no bueno distracted driving is a huge problem. Kristina Supler:  And I don't have data. I wish I had some study to say I'm sure there's good research out there, but you know, I would say the reality is regardless of your age, texting and driving, bad, dangerous because if you're looking at your phone, by definition, you're not looking at the road.   Susan Stone: I'm very mindful that my children have always seen a pile of books. Very messily next to on my bed, stand next to my bed.   Kristina Supler: Same with me.   Susan Stone: I mean, I always have five books going, but the other night I caught myself looking at my phone and you know, it's not good for healthy sleep.   Kristina Supler:  No, and actually that that was something. I guess you could say I had the good fortune of learning back in college. I had tremendous trouble with sleeping. Insomnia, I would dread going to bed because I was just later for hours and hours and hours. Yeah, and you know, through that though, I learned the importance of having really good boundaries with electronics and the bedroom. And so not laying in bed on your phone or not looking at your laptop, shooting off some emails before you try to go to bed because you can't wind down.   Susan Stone: Well, and again, it's that modeling. If you want your kids not to be addicted to their devices, we have to establish healthy boundary with our own devices.   Kristina Supler: Absolutely. So what do your thoughts, Susan, on how to help promote really healthy offline connections?   Susan Stone: By doing.   Kristina Supler: Yeah.   Susan Stone: Again, it's that modeling. And so, I think it's important to, when I know when I go out and walk the dog to just say, "Hey, you want to come with me to walk the dog?"   Kristina Supler: Yeah, and I think this is one of those things that it's ironic that we're talking about this in the context of healthy tech habits because I think the practical advice is rooted in just old fashioned behaviors. And by that, I mean, just do stuff, try sports, try other clubs, maybe it's theater, just find stuff that's interesting. And it's through trial and error, you know, some kids are going to find stuff easier than others that they like. Some kids like everything they do. Others don't. Others, it's a more difficult journey to find stuff that's interesting and exciting. But you just have to keep encouraging them. And I think as parents, it's so easy, we come home from work, we're exhausted. Our children just want to be left alone in their bedrooms, but we still have to encourage them to do stuff. We still have to make the effort to have conversations, right?   Susan Stone: It was really challenging during the pandemic. Everybody lived virtually. For me, the conversation is how lucky we are that we're not living that pandemic life, even though, of course, people still get COVID. And it's here to stay. We're not locked in our homes. We can interact. There are people out and about into really show gratitude for things that were taken away from us.   Kristina Supler: That's such a great point about, you know, essentially perspective, because if you think about it in 2021, 2020, when we were locked in our houses and couldn't go anywhere, it was just like, "Oh, you do anything. You'd be exciting to go to Target, right?" And now it's interesting to see how sometimes we lose perspective on having the ability to go out and do things and socialize and interact with people. Susan Stone: I love going to the movies again. I don't care what anybody says. To me, there is nothing better than getting a big box of junior mints and sitting and watching a flick in a theater.cI love it.   Kristina Supler: I still want to be with you on this one. But I know like movie theaters. I actually, I am one of those people. I'd rather watch a movie in the comfort of my own home. But I hear you, though. I agree with your point generally speaking. Let's just getting out and doing things.   Susan Stone: And live theater in summer concerts.   Kristina Supler: Yeah. Yeah.   Susan Stone: Musical theater. I have my tickets for Six.   Kristina Supler: Oh, yes. I was looking at that over the weekend.   Susan Stone: The best. It'll be the second time I saw it. So I'm a repeat offender for sometimes seeing the same musicals. But everybody out there needs to stay informed on what's happening online. And be cautious about online bullying too.   Kristina Supler: Oh, that's that's such an important topic. And I actually think particularly with younger children now, little school, it's something that they're very aware of because they're taught so much about it in school. Which is a good thing that they know about it because let's face it, it does happen. And I mean, they don't want to be a total Debbie Downer, but let's face it, the internet is full of dangerous stuff. And people with bad intentions.   Susan Stone: The last topic I want to bring up is FOMO.   Kristina Supler: Hmm. Tell me more.   Susan Stone: Let's talk about this because I think here again, modeling can come through. Just because you see people smiling on that Instagram picture. It's a picture. It's a moment in time. It's okay if you're not included in that event.   Kristina Supler: Oh, this is so interesting you bring this up because in my household, the issue with FOMO had to do with Taylor Swift tickets. Because we did not have the much sought after tickets.   Susan Stone: Was everyone saying, yay, I got my tickets online?   Kristina Supler: And they went and we were the only ones who didn't. I mean, kidding aside, it was like a big, it was a big thing in my house. And we just sort of had to work through it. But to your point Susan, you see these photos on Instagram and wherever whatever the platform is. It doesn't really matter. Everyone's smiling and happy and in, you know, cool outfits. But it's important that we, children and adults alike, we don't lose sight of the fact that it's not reality always.   Susan Stone: You know, one of the things I said to my kids growing up is you're invited and you are placed where you're meant to be. And that's okay. You're meant to be somewhere else and just be grateful for where you are and not in life and not what you think you missed out on.   Kristina Supler: Yeah, and that, I mean, something in our house that we talk about a lot is just the idea of treat others the way you want to be treated. Which again is so simple and basic, but I mean, it's, it works and all facets of life. All facets. Glad we had this little chat. Susan Stone: Indeed.   Kristina Supler: To our listeners, thanks for joining us and we'll catch you next time. Thanks for listening to Real Talk with Susan and Christina. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show so you never miss an episode. And leave us a review so other people can find the content we share here. You can follow us on Instagram, just search our handle @StoneSupler. And for more resources, visit us online at studentdefense.kjk.com. Thank you so much for being a part of our Real Talk community. We'll see you next time.  

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Carrie Hull, who founded the You Have Options Program, nationally recognized for providing reporting options for survivors of sexual violence. Carrie also created the Certified FETI® Program, standardizing trauma interviews. They discuss the importance of utilizing effective interviewing techniques in investigations, specifically within the realms of law enforcement and Title IX cases. They also explore the necessity of gathering accurate information and avoiding biased assumptions through neutral questioning. The role of body language and filtering out implicit bias is also discussed.   Show Notes: ·         Carrie's Background (1:30) ·         The FETI framework (2:30) ·         The science and study behind FETI (4:15) ·         The applications of a FETI interview (5:30) ·         How to ask questions using the FETI methodology (7:00) ·         Collecting the dots vs connecting the dots (08:30) ·         Receiving answers without judgement (10:00) ·         Use in different disciplines (11:45) ·         How FETI can be used in Title IX cases (13:50) ·         The importance of framing an investigation (16:30) ·         The role of body language in an interview (18:00) ·         How to prevent leading questions (19:45) ·         How to filter implicit bias (21:00) ·         How a FETI investigation differs (23:00) ·         Conclusion (25:20)     Transcript: Susan Stone: Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Christina Subler. We are full-time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real candid conversation. Today's episode is gonna focus on a topic that Christina and I really take for granted, and that's the actual interviewing process of somebody who is either reporting a Title IX complaint or a crime. Kristina Supler:  I am excited for today's guest because I think that sometimes when lawyers are brought in for student advisors, in particularly campus Title IX cases, there's so much focus on the hearing. But I know Susan, you and I always talk about how important the interview is, and we spend so much time preparing our students for their interview. Susan Stone:  I agree. And we have seen so many different styles of investigators. It's like snowflakes no two are the same. And I, I really do mean that we've seen people who make our students feel interrogated. Kristina Supler: Sure. And, and then we've also had, you know, investigators who I felt were very impartial and truly there to just have a conversation to collect evidence. Susan Stone: On the flip side, you want your investigator to be impartial, but you also want the details to come out and you wanna make sure they circle back and do a thorough investigation and really try to dig out the truth. Kristina Supler That's right. That's right. Well, I'm excited to speak with today's guest, Carrie Hall. Yeah. Carrie is an Oregon native, a former de detective with the Ashland Police Department and a leading figure in improving law enforcement responses to sexual violence. She created the Certified FETI® Program, which is an interviewing methodology intended to sort of standardize investigative interviews. And through her consultancy, Carrie Hall Consulting, she also offers specialized training to law enforcements across the globe. We're really pleased to have you join us today. Carrie. Welcome. Welcome, Carrie. Carrie Hull: Well, thanks so much.   Susan Stone: We're gonna start with the first question. We like to go broad and then whittle down called the, is that the funnel approach? Carrie?   Carrie Hull: Funnel Technique. Funnel Susan Stone: So describe the FETI framework. How's that? Carrie Hull: Yeah, so FETI stands for the Forensic Experiential Trauma Interview, and it really is made up of a series of principles and foundational, you know, metrics that are on the practitioner. So when we say practitioner, we mean the person who is conducting the interview. We don't have any requirements or any restrictions that are placed on what we consider the participant. We don't view our participants as victims, witnesses, suspects, anything like that, because we really want them to remain and us to remain in the neutral. We are fully just a methodology that is about information collection. So it's been very interesting when I, when I was listening to that introduction and you talking about interacting with some of these different investigators, what I think is such a defining piece for me as an investigator of FETI is that it forces me to stay in the interviewer role and not conflate being an investigator at the same time, which lets me gather information in such a, well, more robust way, but also a more accurate way, because I'm not driving towards a conclusion, which is really more of that investigative side. So what FETI does is it asks the practitioners to really just be an interviewer, even if their other roles are also to investigate and to put things together. What the forensic experiential trauma interview methodology allows us to do is stay very, very specifically in information collection. So within that, we have some, you know, pieces of our framework. It's science-based. That's very, very important for us because that as that changes, as the neuroscience and, you know, the information about the brain comes out about memory and encoding and retrieval, we wanna make sure that we are actually are applying that and it's not taking years and years to be able to bring that into our methodologies. And then we have something called opportunities for information, and that's the bulk of the methodology. It's talking about using brain-based cues, very specific, we call them systems of security, to provide a lot of options for the people who are stepping forward and giving information to be able to actually have that information collected, but also have it documented accurately. So for us, it's very, very specifically not an investigations practice. It's all about information collection. Kristina Supler: And what are the, the realms in which the applications for use of FETI methodology, criminal cases, school cases, a mix? Carrie Hull: Yeah, it's definitely a mix. It started out very much focused within sexual violence cases. So this was born out of law enforcement, specifically out of the Department of Defense in the Army. One of our instructors who was very active still with us, Lori Hyman, was the first one to actually use the FETI methodology within an investigation. And that was within the Army criminal command. And, and that was focused around sexual violence cases predominantly. So it started out being used with people who were stepping forward and either identified themselves or identified by someone else as a victim. What it has grown into in mainly because we wanna enhance that neutrality. Our learning was that this needed to not focus so much on what somebody was saying they were, or putting them into a box, but just trying to really gather the experience of what they are saying happened in a really three-dimensional way. Then we take that information and we move it into another system. That could be an investigation, that also could be a hiring process. I do a lot of work, surprisingly. I I did never intend for this to be the case in human resources. We use this a lot within human resources. So the applications are endless. It really is focused on if somebody has had an experience, being able to gather that and document it accurately. Susan Stone: Carrie, I have a question that drives me crazy when I listen to interviews and it's how should fact gatherers? 'cause I'm not gonna call you investigators. I'm learning, try to elicit information as to the ultimate issue without being too obvious. So for example, if you ask somebody, did you steal the cookie? What do you expect? No, no. With crumbs all over. And the reason I say that is we were just involved in an investigation where there were just blanket denials. And I can't help but think that the reason everyone was just denying was because the questions were just too conclusive. Kristina Supler: Did you do this really bad thing? It's true. Yeah. Yeah. Carrie Hull: Well, and, and for me, it's so funny when I hear stuff like this because it just takes me back to the beginning of my career as a detective. Well, even prior to that as an officer. And I wish that I had this understanding then, because I used to, you know, find myself in very similar situations. And it was frustrating for everybody. 'cause you just didn't seem like you were able to do anything with it. Right? You just had people on one end denying people on one end, assuming, and then not a lot of information being shared in between, which is not helpful. So if I just use the cookie analogy, I'll just use that as an example. Let's say you have somebody that has res all over their face, right? And you have somebody who's accusing them of taking a cookie that they weren't supposed to have.  And so what we would say with FETI is move back from looking and making the accusation, because you might be wrong, right? The experience of the crumbs could have come from numerous other things other than a stolen cookie. Some of them might be unlikely, but it doesn't mean that they're impossible. And so we really just focus on gathering what that experience was for the person. So if I was walking up and interviewing the person who had crumbs all over their face, I might start out by saying, you know, help me understand how you feel right now instead of accusing them of doing something. Because just like what you mentioned, that's not one gonna be probably the most fruitful way to do it. But more importantly, you might be wrong. And what you're doing by, by going into that sort of investigative focus, driving towards an answer is you're losing all the information that helps you ultimately get to the answer. So what we've found is by just backing away from trying to, you know, connect the dots, we say in FETI, we collect the dots. We do not connect them. This is a massive shift from where we started when, when FETI was in its infancy, we used to use this analogy of puzzle pieces. And we used to say like, you're gathering the puzzle pieces. And the instructors would go up in front of the room and they would like throw a puzzle up in the air and do this big, you know, explanation of some puzzle pieces are upside down and right side up. And the goal right in the interview is to be able to gather them and put them together. That was so misinformed. And, and this is one of the things I love about this methodology, is we're, we're not guardians of it. We want it to change. And as neuroscientists push back, as practitioners push back, we realized, no, our goal as an interviewer is not to put the puzzle together. Our goal is just to collect the dots. So we, we say in our training that the dots are information, we collect them, we do not connect them. Connecting the dots is what you do in the investigation after you've collected that information. So to go back to that cookie analogy, I would just collect as much information as I could. You know, help me understand what I'm able to see on your face right now, and then let them answer. Right? Let them, even if let's just say they are absolutely fabricating, they, they come up with whatever it is. You know, aliens came down from outer space and rubbed a cookie all over my face, right? I'll just give a ridiculous one. Okay, tell me more about the aliens. And genuinely we're not gonna say that, you know, with any sort of judgment, we're not gonna say anything with that because that's not my role.  My role is to document whatever they're able to share with me at that time, and then to really, really be able to allow them space in that experience. And if that is a fabrication or a lie, that's okay, I'm gonna document that. That's just as important to take forward into an investigative process to be able to corroborate or refute that as, you know, this sort of feeling that we need to solve it in the moment. And once I realized that I didn't need to have the answer in the interview, life just got so much more effective. And it actually got simpler. My job was actually what it truly was, which was to interview. What I see people do instead is they call an an interview, you know, this form of gathering information. But when I review it, when I evaluate these, they are absolutely investigating. They're not interviewing, and they've completely bypassed the interview at all. And they've moved right, to trying to draw conclusions. So that's really what the methodology does, is it, it puts those kind of breaks and those reminders on the practitioner to truly go in and gather. Susan Stone: So you don't make credibility calls. Carrie Hull: We do not within the interview. Now, in other functions of like my work, I will absolutely be part of that process. But what I would say to my team if I'm working with them or myself, is I, have I gathered enough to be able to make that credibility assessment, right? So it is, and it can be pretty fluid, you know, as a police officer, we work all the time with people that are patrol and we work, you know, we don't ever encourage somebody to like say to the person they're interacting with right now, I'm doing an interview with you, right? And hold on, I need to stop and now I'm gonna be doing an investigation. That's absolutely not what we're saying. These are fluid principles and processes that you might be moving in and out of sometimes within a very short period of time. I'll give you a really quick example. We never anticipated this to be used, be used with paramedics. This a hundred percent was first for law enforcement and detectives. And we started seeing these paramedics coming to our trainings, and I remember I got to talk to some of them and I said, you know, one of our cues help me understand using this methodology in your work. And they started talking about just little tweaks that they were able to make to the questions that they're asking of their patients. And, you know, this was always the pushback we got is, I don't have time to do this. It takes too much time. And I love this example because it shows that it's really, the onus is on the practitioner for the words coming outta their mouth for how the data's collected. So they have somebody in the back of an ambulance and they said, they've just modified from before. They would say, where are you injured? Instead, now they've shifted to, what are you able to tell me about your body right now? And it's such a distinct and important difference. It costs the same amount of time to say, but what I'm told is they get so much more valuable information because one is asking for a conclusion, and it's also asking for a patient to be able to assess what injury is. That is a complicated thing for a brain, let alone if they're experiencing some sort of physical event to their body. So instead they say, what are you able to tell me about your body right now? And they're, yes, some of the information may not be relevant, but a lot of it is. And then they can pass all that information off to the ER staff who then are essentially, you know, the equivalent of the investigators that are gonna take that intel and decide whether it's relevant and whether it's needed for their assessment. So I, I really see that as sort of this enlightening of separating out the investigation from the interview. Kristina Supler: It's interesting to hear you speak so much about, I like the phrase collect dots, don't connect the dots. Yeah. It, when students come to us, particularly in the Title IX realm, and we're sort of preparing to embark on navigating the student through the process, oftentimes we're just engaging in information gathering and, and trying to identify what evidence might be out there. And so often, particularly with sex cases of any type, we're met with the response. Well, it, it was just, there was just two of us alone in a room. So who's to say it's one person's word against another? Carrie, I'd like to hear from you what sort of damage can occur when an investigator in Title IX case frames a case as a a, he said, she said, or something along those lines during an interview. Carrie Hull: Oh, it's my most hated phrase, and there's a lot of things that I don't like hearing, but he said, she said is just one that crawls up my back and, and gives me the worst feeling. So what I will say when I'm working with investigators specifically, and, and I get a lot of pushback for this, some of them take it very personally, and I think they should. But I am adamant if you as an investigator are ever saying it's a he said, she said case. Now, again, I'm talking as an investigator. Unfortunately society uses this term way too much. But as a professional, if you are using the term he said, she said, what you are communicating to me loud and clear is that you are very bad at your job. So if I, if I work with somebody, well, because what, what you have communicated, if you say, I have a he said, she said case one, the gendered problem is right there out, out as the front. But let's just say it is somebody stepping forward who identifies as a male and somebody identifies as a female. All you are telling me is that you have done two things in that case at best, you've talked to the female and you've talked to the male, you haven't investigated anything. So you don't have a case. You have two interviews. That's not a he said, she said case. And so that's where I say, you are really bad at your job if you said you have a, he said, she said case. There is always something to corroborate or refute, even in the cases that seemingly have very little information, you need to actually put the time and work in. This requires effort. These investigations require effort. And so if you are just going forward and you're taking a, you know, the report from one person and you're going and talking to the other person, and you're not doing anything else to corroborate or refute the information that's gathered in those, you don't have a case, you have two interviews and you just need to be accurate in your documentation that that's all you did. Susan Stone: 2 What I worry about in terms of what is considered cooperation, it's often bringing up prior mud slinging character evidence saying, oh, well she has a reputation of X, he has a reputation of Y and therefore they must have behaved a certain way at the incident in question. And so I agree with you, there are, it is limited when you frame something as, let's say they said, they said to be more neutral, but I also get worried what we consider to be valid corroborating evidence. Carrie Hull: Sure. And again, that's where I separate out the interview from the investigation, because now we're talking about drawing conclusions, we're talking about bringing that in. And instead, if somebody said to me, I just go immediately to my, my interviewer mind when I hear somebody say like mud slinging, for instance. And that's, of course this happens and it's horrible and it shouldn't, well, let's just go with the reality of it happening. If somebody came to me in one of my investigations and they said something like that, well, this person A, here's the reason that they should not be believed. I am going, Ooh, this is another opportunity for an interview. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask permission, you know, would you be willing to sit down and tell me more about that? Because when it is truly just the quote unquote mudslinging, right, there's no real relevancy. It falls apart in a really good professional interview when you have somebody who's skilled and knows what they're doing, or you can at least get back to this is where that credibility potential comes in. And at least now you're taking all those dots and you're offering them to whoever is the finder of fact or whoever's making that determination so that they have more than just a one or two word statement, which is traditionally what I see now that should not be entered in there, but, but there could be really good intel underneath that, right? Help me understand more about this, whatever that is. And I'm gonna have them explore it. And if it comes into, it's just an opinion, we don't really weigh opinions in our investigations very much. There needs to be more than that. We don't disregard it. We include everything that somebody gives us. But again, it's for that professional finder of fact that needs to determine the weight of it. Kristina Supler: Carrie, what role does body language play in both an interview and then I guess subsequently in an investigation because they're very different roles? Carrie Hull: Yeah, so for us as an interviewer, any sort of somatic response is again, just an opportunity. We, we really, this is a huge part of the framework where we talk about opportunities for information. We don't draw any conclusions about it. We just gather it and we document it. For instance, I do a lot of human trafficking work. There's just a ton of, you know, investigations that I get invited into to do the interviews for both people who are accused of being involved in human trafficking and people who are, you know, stepping forward as a victim of it or identified as a victim. And in those interviews, it is very, very common for there to be body movement, right? So, you know, as we're going in and, and they're, they're sort of inviting us into their experience. We'll do a lot of tell me mores. And as somebody's talking about it, I will might see them touch a part of their body. Sometimes it could be outside of their awareness, sometimes it could, it's not for me to determine that, but for instance, I might see them do this, right? Touch their wrist or do something like this. Now that can just be something that somebody does that could just be that they do that frequently when they talk. Or it might be something that is connected to the memory of what they're telling me about. My job as the interviewer is not to make a determination. My job is to cue to it. Now, what I won't do in an interview is I won't point out, oh, I see you that you're rubbing your wrist because that's leading, that's the same as a leading question. And I don't wanna do that. What I will say instead is, when appropriate, without interrupting them, what, if anything, are you able to tell me about your wrist at that time? Right? If they're talking about a specific event occurring, I'm, I'm going to, as long as they have a wrist, it's not leading right. But I'm not gonna point out that they're doing that movement now based on how that was encoded for them based on their memory. It may be that that then jumps off into a memory that they're able to tell me about or something relating to the event. There may also be nothing there. And so by not pointing it out, but queuing to it instead, I haven't done anything to sort of change their memory or alter it. I've just given them an opportunity to enhance it without me being the director of that. My job as a really skilled interviewer is just to be sitting with them and hearing and collecting not to ever be giving anything back. We call it within FETI unidirectional interviewing. We as the interviewer, should never under any circumstances, put something into that interview. We should walk away from that interview fully, just with things they gave to us. So you would, Susan Stone: Well, it's so funny, your unidirectional interviewing has led me to a thought. And I'm wondering, when you're looking at body language or the way people frame responses, how do you filter in or filter out implicit bias? Kristina Supler: Oh, that's a good question. Carrie Hull: Yeah, it's incredibly hard and it really requires a lot of practice on the part of the practitioner. We rely on something we call the never again 10. And again, it's, it's a system for us that is baked in to hopefully interrupt that and keep it from happening. We do acknowledge humans are human, and so you're never gonna have it perfect, but the goal needs to be neutrality. So for instance, one of the requirements of the never again 10 is you do not ever offer any personal information or advice. So there is just no, it's not at all allowed, especially at an advanced level for FETI, I would say most of our basic practitioners really avoid this as well. That really helps For any of that. Again, going into these interviews, my ideal situation is not to know anything about what happened. That can be harder depending on how involved I've been with the investigation.  But I'll give you a just an example. If I get called to deploy to something, usually something's gone wrong, right? There's usually a mass casualty incident or something's been really bad, they're not usually calling in outside interviewers unless something's gone wrong. And they will often call me up and say, Hey, here's what happened. I have to stop them and say, Nope, I don't wanna know anything about what happened. I try and go into those interviews as blind as possible, as neutral, as much of a blank slate, whatever, you know, you want to use as that. And that's a very different, when I was a detective working on the homicide team, we would sit around for, I mean, days, weeks, coming up with every question that we wanted, reading every report we could get our hands on everything we could to formulate our questions. And what that did was really increased the chances for bias. And what it also did is gave us the feeling like we already knew the answer and we were driving to something. So instead, we really try and go in as neutral as possible. Kristina Supler: So you're making me think back to the anecdote you mentioned of paramedics and like, oh my gosh, we're responding to a 911 call. There's cars and bodies on the side of the road. We don't have time. We have to get information fast. And hearing you talk about going into interviews as a blank slate, I'm just imagining, again, in, in our world, in campus, title IX proceedings interviews conducted with this methodology. I, I would think they take a really long time. Is that accurate? Carrie Hull: I, I mean it, it's everything above, right. You know, so I can go in, I might have been working with a team for three years and our human trafficking work is a really great example. I have tons of knowledge of that case. And so it's on me to remind myself before I go into these interviews, I literally will have a process that just works for me. I'm a very visual person as I'm walking to the interview, even if it's a phone, if it's a, a zoom, whatever it is in person, I actually mentally bulldoze the information I think I know out of my head just for that interview piece to the best that I can. Now you're still gonna have stuff that creeps in and that's when you're gonna see potentially a leading question or something like that. But as my skill has gotten better, I've really gotten better about being able to do that. And it can be quick too. We work with our, you know, like I mentioned, our patrol officers on traffic stops, you know, they, they on viewed something that made them make a determination to, to make that, whether it was a field contact or a, you know, they stopped a vehicle. So they have that information. What we encourage them to do, just very quickly, same as the, you know, paramedics just go up there and just remind yourself that you don't know everything and you're just collecting, you already have this other facts that you've observed. And that's fine. We're not saying throw it away, but go up into that, that sort of interview, even if it's a very quick one, that information collection and just be open because there might be some other reason that this happened that you're not aware of often there is. And it's gonna give you so much more access to that. And you can always bring that other information back in very quickly. Write the ticket, you know, do whatever you need to do, but engage with that person and see if they're willing to share with you about their experience. Because they had an experience too. You observed something, but they also contributed to whatever this interaction is. And we wanna hear from them. We just don't wanna, you know, diagnose it or we don't want to make a determination about it until we give them a chance to engage with us about it. Susan Stone: It's really a mindset FETI. Yeah. Versus, it's not the same as telling an attorney when you frame questions don't lead, right. Open versus closed. Open versus closed question. It's really just having that mindset of being open to whatever you're going to hear. But as we close the investigation of you, oh, any CSI TV moments that you'd like to share with our listeners out there? Carrie Hull: 4 Oh gosh, I don't know if there's anything I'm allowed to share. I'm under about a hundred different non-disclosures. Oh, Kristina Supler: Come on. I bet you've got the best stories at cocktail parties. That's terrible. You can't share anything with our, you know, I literally- Carrie Hull: Don't think I have Susan Stone: Hundreds of thousands of your best friends. They out. No, no doubt. No one Carrie Hull: I wish I could secret. There's a lot of things that I wish that people knew. And you know, what I will say is that you would think that with the work that I'm exposed to and all these things that I hear, 'cause you get, really get to get in to people. A lot of people are surprised that I'm not more pessimistic. And I will actually say this work has made me the most optimistic about just humans that I've ever been. Because when you allow someone to sit down and truly share their experience without judgment, no matter what side they're on, whether they're accused of something or whether they've had something happen to them, you really get such a better understanding of the human behavior. And that has given me a lot of optimism. I see that we're gonna be much better at this, and we have these skills and these tools now that weren't available to me when I started my career. So I do wish that people had the opportunity to hear what I hear. I do think that if you use something like this, it doesn't have to be FETI, right? But something that is truly neutral, truly around information gathering, it's gonna make all this work that we're involved in that's really difficult. Just a little bit better. Susan Stone: Oh, I love ending on that. Kristina Supler: Optimistic. I was just gonna say, I think that's, let's end on a positive note. That's great, Carrie. It was really, thanks Karen, a lot of fun to talk with you today and I'm so interested in your work and what you do. I think it's wonderful. Thanks for joining us today. Thanks for listening to Real Talk with Susan and Christina. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show so you never miss an episode. And leave us a review so other people can find the content we share here. You can follow us on Instagram, just search our handle at Stone Souper and for more resources, visit us online at studentdefense.KJK.com. Thank you so much for being a part of our Real Talk community. We'll see you next time.  

Real Talk podcast is joined by Hank Nuwer, a renowned anti-hazing journalist, author, and scholar with over four decades of experience. He is known for his unwavering dedication to eradicating hazing culture and has authored many influential books on the subject. Hank maintains a comprehensive database of hazing deaths and continues to be a leading voice in raising awareness and advocating for prevention efforts in colleges and beyond. He is a respected authority on hazing and has conducted extensive research and interviews to shed light on this issue.   Show Notes: ●     Sharing personal experiences with hazing (01:20) ●     Analyzing the role of institutions in hazing prevention (05:10) ●     Highlighting the importance of education and awareness (08:15) ●     Should schools abolish Greek life or fraternity sororities? (10:25) ●     Discussion about different types of hazing (13:00) ●     How to define hazing (13.40) ●     How hazing manifests in different organizations (15:00) ●     Hank discusses his books and plays (19:00) ●     Hank discusses future projects (20:30) ●     Positive turn around stories from institutions (21:52) ●     Experiences at other universities (23:50) ●     How can we get coaches involved (25:00) ●     How lonliness factors into hazing (26:30) ●     Conclusion (28:00) Transcript:   Kristina Supler: Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Christina Supler. We are full-time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real, candid conversations. Susan Stone: Today's podcast is going to tackle the issue of hazing and what a lot of you out there may not know is that Christina and I have looked at hazing from many different perspectives in our career. We have defended accused of hazing. We've actually been asked to help a Greek organization against accusations of hazing. And we have represented victims of hazing. So we have a real 360, don't Christina? Kristina Supler: We do and we're, as our listeners may know, we're located in Ohio, but we handle cases across the country. And what's interesting is that Ohio has been a real hotbed of this activity, though, of course, it happens in students across the country are dealing with these sorts of issues. So we're excited to jump into this topic today. Susan Stone: I really am too. And I am super excited about the guest we have. I feel very fortunate. I want all our listeners know before we give our name out that we reach out to him or her. And we just kept at it because I really wanted this guest on the podcast. So with that, why don't you do the intro? Kristina Supler: Sure. We are joined today by Hank Newer, who is a renowned anti-hazing journalist, author and scholar, known for his unwavering dedication to eradicating hazing culture. With over four decades of experience, he's authored many influential books. He maintains a comprehensive database of hazing deaths. And he continues to be a leading voice in raising awareness and advocating for prevention efforts in colleges and beyond. Welcome, Hank. We're so happy to have you with us today. Hank Newer: Thank you. I'm very pleased to be here. Susan Stone: And I got to add. We just learned Hank lives in Alaska. So we got a little northern exposure going on here. So I love it. But with Hank, let's kick it off. How did hazing become your career focus? Hank Newer: Not because I was hazed, but because I was at the University of Nevada, Reno. And we had a hazing death that was just off campus. But I had seen the initiation. At that time, hazing was rampant, not against the law in a lot of places. I had seen the initiation on campus. And then at a campus bar, I saw someone passed out at a pool table. He was foaming at the mouth. The organization was called the Sun Downers. And their alumni are some of the leading citizens in Nevada. The initiation consisted of making people drink ever clear. And they would throw a match at their lips. So a lot of people were-- Susan Stone: Oh my gosh. Hank Newer: Yeah, that was supposed to be funny. Kristina Supler: That's shocking. Hank Newer: It was. So the person that was foaming I got them to take him and walk him. But I think if I had called the police or so, they wouldn't have done it another time. And John Davies might still be alive. So they did it one more time. And they did this one, not in public. They went to an Indian reservation. And John Davies died, and another pledge was without oxygen for a while. And so I've done database reporting since the 70s. So I made a database of all the hazing deaths that were out there. And editor friend of mine put me in touch with Human Behavior Magazine. And so in the mid 70s, that first article came out. And I kept the database going ever since. Susan Stone: Wow. I can't even respond. Kristina Supler: I think your database is really an important resource. And tell us more about how you receive information and reports that you put into your database. And how do you verify the accuracy of this information? Hank Newer: It's actually time consuming. I also on the page have a long list of deaths that are not considered hazing deaths, but appeared in the press as deaths. Some of these, in particularly around 1900, were with sensational reporting. And I had to track them to find out if these really did occur. So mostly it's from media reports. But people get in touch all the time. If there's a death, the chances of me talking to the parents within two or three days are very good. They're going to be calling for information. And now I would say it's the most difficult part of doing this job. But it was a lot of time. And it was very expensive in the 70s. I had a pay for Lexus Nexus myself. I paid the New York Times for their database. And I started a list serve in the 80s. And people were sending in information on that list serve, which you still could find some places online. So I just kept that over and over. And the good thing about being so public, if people disagree or want to talk about it, it's all out there with full disclosure, where the information comes from. Kristina Supler: That's the purpose of the database. Hank Newer: Because in the set, as I said before, there were a lot of deaths that did not occur that were listed. People were taking any alcohol related death at all and calling it hazing. And so I was trying to break down the details as much as anything else. The next database I'll do will be all these sexual haze and cases involving athletes. And I hope to have that done next year. Susan Stone I'm sure you're thinking about that because of the Yates versus Northwestern case, am I correct? Hank Newer: You have a lot of phone calls about that. Kristina Supler: And we're seeing a real rise in those sorts of cases in our practice that we handle the issue from all different angles. So I think that's really important work you're doing. Susan Stone: I applaud you. What I want to know in your work because we address this, so I'm going to ask you a very selfish question, because I want to know the answer. But I'm sure Christina does too. So much of hazing is shrouded in secrecy and the members of hazing protect each other. What's the best way for a person who's a victim of hazing to gather the evidence to expose what's going on, especially in a culture of silence? Hank Newer: The way I try to do things is I go to the alums, people who've graduated a year or two earlier. And that's very, very quickly after a death when I'm doing a story. Talking to the alums, yes, some of them will close, you know, shut the phone on you, but others will talk about it. And it's a good way of getting into the middle. I try to talk to the advisors and get information from them. And if you just talk to people on campus, hazing isn't as shrouded in secrecy as you think. People are going to be talking to their significant others. So it's not the secret that fraternity members would like to think that it is. Susan Stone: For sports organizations, correct? Hank Newer: Yeah, for sport, well, one of the big problems is they don't consider it as hazing Kristina Supler: No, we know. We got it. We got it. I just wanted to comment that I think it's also important to point out, and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts. I think often hazing is sort of conceptually conceived of as just happening among young men in fraternities. And in fact, it spans across all student organizations, entities, athletic teams, military groups. And it's also not exclusively a male issue. I mean, Susan and I have plenty of case experiences involving female athletes in hazing. Can you talk a little bit more about what you're seeing in the breakdown? And is there any rise in female hazing in your research? Susan Stone: Generally, what are the trends? Hank Newer: Yeah, I don't really see a rise. I think it's consistent. We've not had a death this year or last year, but we've had so many close calls. So people would like to think that we have a trend of deaths ending. We don't. The people were lucky. Maybe what's happening is they're quicker to call 911 and not to just drop somebody off at the hospital where a few deaths have happened. Susan Stone: Or leave them at the foot of the stairs like at Penn State? Hank Newer: Yeah. Well, that-- he was just left alone there. But several times, members have gotten frightened and taken somebody to the hospital and just dropped them off at the emergency. And it's too late at that particular point. From what I saw in the one case, people went from standing up to being dead drunk and just short amount of time. So they're talking, talking, talking, and then suddenly, it hits them. That case of foaming at the mouth was the most dramatic that I've ever seen. Kristina Supler: I can't imagine. I just can't imagine what that must have been like and how that experience has obviously stayed with you. Hank, I'm curious. I'd like to hear your thoughts on whether you think schools should abolish Greek life fraternity sororities? Or do you think that there's value in these organizations? Hank Newer: With certainty, abolish pledging. Not abolish Greek life. I taught 18 years of Franklin College. We didn't have any incidents. I was the advisor to the honor society there, which is male and female. And we had positive initiations that could not in any way shape or form be considered hazing. And the students brought their parents or grandparents to the ceremony. But for me, it's like a mathematical equation, pledging, becomes hazing as pledging becomes hazing. In terms of sports, get rid of the word rookie and stop this dominant subordinate culture that we have out there. And the other is a lot of the coaches will either turn their heads or say, don't take it too far. And that is very, very common. Now, it's very, very dangerous for coaches to do that. If you say, don't take it too far, and you're allowing it. And if alcohol is involved, it is going to go too far. Susan Stone: Hank, just to kind of turn the question and turn the dial a little differently, there are the extreme cases of alcohol. The one you described you witness is horrific. And we've also worked on some pretty scary cases. But I have to say, we've also worked on cases where activities were labeled as hazing and taken as this serious infraction. I don't know. I didn't think it was so serious. I want to give you an example and get your response. We worked on a case where there was a pledging and when the pledges went active, there was a champagne shower. Like they do after car racing. Kristina Supler:  Yeah, it celebrates. Susan Stone: That was investigated for being hazing. I don't think that's hazing. What do you think? Hank Newer: I broke it out out into criminal hazing and non-criminal hazing. Certainly, with something that you're describing, I would have never gotten into this kind of thing. The hazing that I had as a fraternity member was being dropped off in the country. We knew about it ahead of time and had money to call friends. So when you look at it that way, you don't think it's so bad. But then you look at Grove City College in Pennsylvania. Four pledges were killed and aligned as they were walking. And actually, alcohol wasn't involved for them when they were in the middle of nowhere. So the problem is that what would look like innocent fun, sometimes things go wrong. In that case, it's a hard line between what's hazing and what's an accident. And in talking to fraternity advisors, you can't punish the same way. You can't punish somebody for having a pledge pen, the same way that you would for having them drink a handle of alcohol. But in some cases, hazing is hazing, and it's punished that way. It doesn't make any sense at all. Susan Stone: So how do you define hazing? Hank Newer: And hazing to me would be any activity that's silly, dangerous, or repulsive, that's done to newcomers by veterans in order to bring them into the organization. Susan Stone: Why silly? Kristina Supler:  Is it because you think it's humiliating and embarrassing? Hank Newer: We're talking about the things that you said were not so bad. Like for me, I think it says something about male attitudes toward women when baseball players make each other dress up and go on to play in women's clothing or so on. But what about singing a song? Singing your fight song?  That was in the movie, Paper Lion. Alex Karris was in that particular movie. George Plympton, who I interviewed about it, was pretending to be a player, a quarterback on the Detroit Lions, and he brought out a lot of that. So that kind of culture is still there. The only problem is, and there's no real study on it, our people going to take it farther if you have this kind of dominance. Somehow it got into from singing to tying people up to a goal post. And these are big, burly guys fighting back in people have been injured. Or hockey, it's gotten sexualized as you probably have seen in your research. Susan Stone: We have. Hank Newer: Band is very physical. Look at the death of Robert Champion. And when you were talking about different kinds, so when I'm talking to parents in 2018 in South Carolina, the parents were of a band member, their fraternity members. Interestingly enough, no sorority moms have gotten involved. I don't know exactly why it is, but the activists are the parents of fraternity members. And Kathleen Wyatt, for example, in Ohio is a big actress.  Yeah, yeah, a lot. And before I took Robert Fairbanks, by the way, I was the editor of the Solana paper. Kristina Supler:  Many of our listeners are parents of high school and college students. And so based on your experience and knowledge with this subject, what are some of the warning signs that parents, but also students should be aware of and look out for regarding hazing within organizations? Hank Newer: Well, there's like a personality change, a good way that a young woman put it, who was hazed at DuPau with having cigarettes put between our legs and burnt. Susan Stone: That's torture. Hank Newer: That one was interesting. It was Kappa Kappa Gamma. They were members of a family within the organization. And this happened at Chico State too, where the family has their choice of alcohol. One death, Adrian Hydeman at Chico State, it was brandy. These young women, I can't remember what their alcohol was, but they had to drink that particular liquor. And so with that particular case, the warning signs were that she lost her bubbliness, and that's the best description I could give. That she, the young woman, had been dancing. She grew up with ballet. When I interviewed her, she was working in a pizza parlour. And she had put on a bit of weight with stress. And that was one interview. Another young woman who fought back and later got her PhD in family studies fought back. So people have just different kinds of reactions. Mine with the case of having to go out, I didn't really think that much about it. Because we had somebody pick us up right away. But if somebody had gotten killed on one of those marches, I'd be looking at it differently. If the death hadn't occurred at Nevada Reno, I certainly never would have written about hazing. Susan Stone: You have written four books, is that correct? Hank Newer: Yeah, four books. And then I have a novel which has a hazing of Basques and Chinese in the early United States. Susan Stone: And you've also written a play, correct the broken pludge? Hank Newer: Yes, it was a winner of an Anne Frank Award at Buffalo State University. It used to be Buffalo State College. And I got to put my one man play on. And I put that play on for athletes. And I call it Death Of A Rookie. And then there's the Broken Pledge, which is about fraternity members. But it's pretty much the same. A grandfather, buries his grandson that day, and this overcome with grief, hatred, asking where God was when this occurred, losing his faith, and then turning it around with quotations that were in his son's diary from Martin Luther King. So I hope it's as powerful as I think. Susan Stone: Well, I have to tell you, I watched a lot of it. And I thought it was incredibly poignant. How is it that you keep able to turn out content on this one issue and see so many angles and sides of it? It's impressive. Hank Newer: Yeah, I think part of it is by talking to the parents and experts and people that are in the Greek world, they have the insights too. So I had interviewed Louis Lamore one time and he said, it's not that we're so clever, we're a sponge, we're a filter, and we take all of this in. So I think I have to give credit to other people for their perspective and how they see things, but I do have a good memory. Kristina Supler:  What's next for you, Hank, on the horizon of this project? Hank Newer: Okay, so we'll be doing that database that I told you about with sexual hazing. I have a chapter coming out for the University of Toronto, Cress out in 2024 with my own experiences which will be on athletic hazing. I am putting together in the garage about all these files, putting together all the hazing incidents I can find and to do those as a database as well. It's a little more difficult when you're working as an editor than when you're teaching. The amount of free time is not quite as much. And now it's politics coming up elections. You know, Ohio and Alaska, I won't have as much time at all this weekend, I'll be in that office constantly. Kristina Supler: This is, we've talked a lot, a lot of heavy things and we always like to give our listeners something a little positive as well when, you know, contemplating our various topics. So can you share with us in your experience any success stories of schools, institutions, and specific organizations that have really tackled this issue of hazing and essentially turned a really negative situation into a positive to recreate culture surrounding this issue? Hank Newer: Yes, Alfred University did that. They had the death of Chuck Stenzel, which was the subject of my book Broken Pledges, came out in 1989. But they got rid of the Greek system also. And there were a lot of lawsuits with that.Dr. Norm Pollard and a colleague of his, we were the ones that did the first high school hazing surveys. They also did surveys of fraternity members. I got to help write the questions for that, but they did most of the work. That was a big, big turnaround. And the impetus was not only the death of Chuck Stenzel, they had a bad football hazing. And I don't think they lost the season, but they did suspend the team for a game or two. So yes, that was a turnaround. My personal story is I spoke at Penn State, and not two weeks later at Penn State, I got a phone call from the advisor at that particular time to say that the sorority, not hazing, had a woman take way too much alcohol, near point four BAC. Kristina Supler:  Oh my gosh, wow. Hank Newer: The young women did not want to make the call. And one person who heard the, they all heard the talk, one person insisted, and they saved this young woman's life. Kristina Supler:  And it only takes one person. It only takes one student to reach out for help that by standard intervention to stop something horrific. Hank Newer: And it only takes one idiot in the room, sometimes, who's, especially if that person is physically powerful to cause all these bad things as well. You hear that over and over again. So when there was a death of a lacrosse player at Western Illinois University, the punishment for the players, which was interesting, they were all fraternity members too, was to have a writer come in and go through the hazing with them, not the alcohol related part, which was 15 bottles put on stands, but to go into the river, to go marching through, to go to the house, so I'd be able to write about that. In a way, I felt like I was punished as well, because I did that at my own expense. And then it went into a book. But over and over, what's the point? The point is they kept pointing to the student coach who not only did this, but instigated so that they would get the team credit card and put gas into their own vehicles. And each one had the same story. I thought somebody else would step up. Over and over, I kept hearing that same thing. And guess what? The instigator would not talk to me. He never went to jail, either. The judge did not follow through. But yeah, there was one perpetrator who was the prime mover. Susan Stone: How can we get coaches to get on board? Kristina Supler:  Great question. Hank Newer: Really difficult. So I talked at a Quaker school in Delaware, athletic director, a female, really against all kind of hazing, really working football coach. The veteran comes up to me later and said, yeah, this is all fine, but we're not going to take it too far. I thought, geez, you just heard this whole talk. You saw the pictures of the kids on the screen and you're going to tell me this. And so then also when I was at Regis in Denver, I was talking, the athletic director was very much against it, talking to the different coaches. And I asked the coach, after what would happen if you heard there was hazing on your team, would you punish them? And he said, starter or reserve? Kristina Supler:  I was just going to say, I mean, obviously, in particularly collegiate athletics and big schools, coaches are often evaluated based on their winning record. And so it's decision for them to make when a hazing perpetrator is also a star athlete. We just hope that the coach makes the right choice in terms of promoting student safety versus thinking about wins and losses over truly in the long run, what's best for the team from a cultural perspective and student safety perspective. Susan Stone: I think that especially as kids just went back to school, everybody wants to feel a sense of belonging. People can be a very lonely place, both high school and college. And we have to train people that abuse is not the way to bond. Hank Newer: And here in Fairbanks, there was a case I never heard about until I came here where the football coach called it team bonding to have the players jump into the swimming pool and take off all their clothes to switch it to everything, put them back on while in the pool and there were three near deaths. And he forbid his assistants to jump into the water until it was almost too late. And yes, he lost his job, but I never heard about it because our paper in covering it called it what he called it, a team building or team bonding. Susan Stone: Right. Hank Newer: I've written about that since and called it hazing exactly what it is. Kristina Supler:  It's been a pleasure speaking with you today, Hank. And I think that you're obviously a wealth of knowledge on this topic. So we really appreciate your knowledge and insights and encourage our listeners to check out your wealth of material on the topic as well, your books and your database. You are worth the weight. Susan Stone: You are worth the wait. Really. Thank you so much. Kristina Supler:  Thanks for listening to Real Talk with Susan and Christina. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show so you never miss an episode. And leave us a review so other people can find the content we share here. You can follow us on Instagram, just search our handle @StoneSoupler. And for more resources, visit us online at studentdefense.kjk.com. Thank you so much for being a part of our Realtalk community. We'll see you next time. —----------------------------------------------------------------------- Pull Quotes (Try to find a minimum of 4): ·         “I think often hazing is sort of conceptually conceived of as just happening among young men in fraternities. And in fact, it spans across all student organizations, entities, athletic teams, military groups. And it's also not exclusively a male issue. I mean, Susan and I have plenty of case experiences involving female athletes in hazing. Can you talk a little bit more about what you're seeing in the breakdown?” (08:25) ·         “I can't imagine. I just can't imagine what that must have been like and how that experience has obviously stayed with you. Hank, I'm curious. I'd like to hear your thoughts on whether you think schools should abolish Greek life fraternity sororities? Or do you think that there's value in these organizations?” (10:00) ·         “I broke it out out into criminal hazing and non-criminal hazing. Certainly, with something that you're describing, I would have never gotten into this kind of thing. The hazing that I had as a fraternity member was being dropped off in the country. We knew about it ahead of time and had money to call friends.” (12:20) ·         “I think that especially as kids just went back to school, everybody wants to feel a sense of belonging. People can be a very lonely place, both high school and college. And we have to train people that abuse is not the way to bond.” (26:41)  

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Carly Boyd, a domestic relations attorney.  In this episode, they talk about the effects of a recent Department of Justice Investigation at Case Western Reserve University will have on student life.  They discuss the biggest misperceptions students have around Title IX issues, why students don't report harassment cases in both Greek organizations and Sports Teams, and what triggers most harassment cases. Show Notes: (04:31)  Biggest Misperceptions Students Have with TitleIX and Other Issues (05:28)  The Reaction to the DOJ Sexual Conduct Investigation at Case University (08:41)  Why More Students Don't Come Forward (11:32)  Why Athletes Don't Report Harassment (14:08)  What Lies at the Heart of Most Harassment Claims (15:32)  Is Bystander Intervention Training Effective? (16:46)  Carly's Advice for Students this New Academic Year Transcript: Susan Stone: So Kristina, last week we just received a copy of the resolution agreement between the federal government and Case Western Reserve University. And for our listeners out there, Case is right in our backyard. It's where I went to law school. And apparently the Department of Justice conducted an investigation of the university's response to reports of claims by student on student and employee on student sexual harassment between the years of 2017 and 18, 20 and 21. So right smack in the pandemic. There were a lot of interviews were conducted with a whole host of administrators. And in particular, I couldn't help but notice there was a lot of interviews and roundtables that were facilitated with Interfraternity Council and the Women's Health Center and a lot of Greek organizations. Kristina Supler: Yeah, it was really interesting report to read, Susan. And I was surprised to see the report come out. I think a real upside to this is that Case is committed to strengthening its strength. It's training in response to programs associated with reports of sexual assault or harassment.  Susan Stone: Exactly, because the Case is actually rolling out it's a whole entire program called It's on CWRU, which is a violence prevention campaign. And it'll be interesting to see how that impacts Greek culture and hazing in general.  Kristina Supler: There's a lot of new obligations in that resolution agreement that the university is committed to. But also that fall on members of Greek life and,for example, sororities and fraternities have to disclose to the chapter when there's internal investigations of sexual misconduct. There's new operating protocols. And I'm really curious to hear more about how this is going to play out on campus, day to day realities. Susan Stone: We are so lucky because our very own Carly Boyd, our partner, might have some inside scoop.  Kristina Supler: Welcome Carly. We're pleased to be joined by Carly Boyd. She's a skilled domestic relations attorney who has been working in that field for over a decade and she's in the firms here at KJK family law practice group. And Carly, you might be thinking, why are you having a domestic relations attorney on this podcast. But Carly is actually a former advisor to the Alpha Gamma Delta sorority at Case Western Reserve.  And so she's here today to just talk with us about this resolution agreement and looking to the future, what it means for Greek life. So welcome, Carly.  Carly Boyd: Welcome, Ladies. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here and talk about this.  Susan Stone: Yeah. Carly, just tell us to start, what do you do or what did you do? Because I know you just stepped down in July for, and can I call the Alpha Gamma Delta the Alpha Gams? Is that correct?  Carly Boyd: Yeah, that's Okay. I was their chapter wellness advisor from 2018 to just this past summer. Case Western just added Alpha Gam in 2018. It was a new chapter for them, which was really exciting. Just, like Susan and I went to Case Western for law school and I was really excited to combine my passion for Alpha Gam at Case.  And so in a sorority and a fraternity, they have a main chapter advisor. And then there was a bunch of different ones to help with the different directors. So I was there to assist with the director as they needed me. The chapter wellness kind of focuses on membership on activities and really just being there for retention of members was where I was at. They didn't need me all the time, but there was issues I could be there as a guidance and as a true advisor for them. Kristina Supler: So you were really, in the trenches having contact with the students. I'm curious to hear, Carly, based on your experience working with the students, what do you see as the biggest, misperception or misunderstanding among students about issues like Title IX or maybe hazing and other student conduct issues? Carly Boyd: Yeah, I think, when it comes to the Greek life and the misperceptions and what people think of, it's all bad. It's all hazing, and it's all drinking. It's all, Just horrible stories that come out of the Greek life. And I think there's a balance between there's a really good of Greek life, benefits. When it comes to Title IX, I think people mainly look to like men and women's sports or inequality in that way. I don't know if people outside of your practice, understand the larger implications of what Title IX means on a campus and that it goes down into sexual harassment and misconduct and on those deeper levels. when I was thinking about this, I do believe just the idea of a Title IX investigation, do people understand how. What that really means in a detail of what they were looking into.  Susan Stone: When you read the resolution agreement, what are your impressions? Carly Boyd: I'm surprised that these things weren't happening already. It was my first thought. Really? I just, I think of this day and age of just trainings and so many things that we have to do as professionals. That I'm surprised that just certain annual trainings and reports weren't happening already. And I do believe that my experience with my chapters, they were doing those things that were very on top of providing resources, mandatory trainings. And so maybe I was just surprised that wasn't on a higher level happening at the university. I'm glad  Susan Stone: to see that. We don't know. I happen to believe that it probably was happening. But we don't know all the backstory. We're only looking at the resolution agreement.  Kristina Supler: Yeah, Carly, I'm interested to hear, since you seem to have some surprise when you read this, in some ways this is a whole bunch of nothing. Shouldn't, wasn't this already going on? What do you see realistically to be in terms of likely impact on Greek life, starting this academic year?  Carly Boyd: I hope there's a big impact and implication and how people feel in the Greek community. I hope they feel protected and heard through all these things. I don't know if there'll be a change in the actual work that needs to be done. If they were already doing their local chapters, we're already requiring annual trainings. The Navy doesn't change their day today. For, my chapter, you had to do certain trainings for the whole chapter to be in good standing and you had a report in it. And that's been like that for years internationally. Isn't that? Wasn't just a case Western thing. So I would hope that on a day today. The chapters are used to when you get new members, you educate them, you're doing these regular trainings. If they weren't, I'm looking forward to seeing how that could be implemented and that it's a positive effect in the community. Just because you do these trainings, though, are the members actually feeling like they're doing something good? Just because we all do these trainings and everyone has to go through it to check a box. Are people actually going and hearing it and feeling protected and safe because of those trainings. And so that's what I look forward to seeing is what is the impact of these trainings.  Susan Stone: From our perspective, and Kristina, correct me if you're wrong, we want there to be a culture of reporting. We want, yeah, We want students to come forward. I don't know, Carly, if you've had a chance to look at the complaint against Northwestern and what was going on with the team there, the football team, I believe. Kristina Supler: And swimming. And it's. As they're digging deeper, far wider spread than initially suspected, and according to the news, right?  Susan Stone: And it's not just sexual assault. It's bullying. It's harassment of every kind. And as attorneys who represent students, we want to hear from those parents. We want to hear from those students. We want to be proactive. So we're hoping that more resolution agreements that lead to more training will lead to a culture of people feeling more comfortable to come forward. What are your thoughts on that? I Carly Boyd: think that's great. If people can come forward, But I think it's if I come forward, what's, what do people do with that information? If I don't believe a university or a team or Greek life will actually do anything with my complaint, why am I going to come forward?  And I think that's the biggest part is, I think the negative view of Greek life is this hazing aspect. You have to be tough, you're hazed, that's just normal. Maybe your parents were in Greek life, your dad went through it, so you just deal with it because that's the culture. And I think that's the dangerous part of Greek life, is if I say something am I going to be looked at as weak or am I going to be kicked out? Am I going to be isolated? And maybe I'm at a different college, I'm out of state. I don't know anybody. And this was going to be my community. If I speak up what happens, especially if no one listens. So I'd love, the resolutions, I like the transparency. I like that people can report. But then looking to the institutions to actually act on what's being reported and doing it right,  Kristina Supler: Carly. You've just made me think about. there's a portion of the resolution agreement with Case that specifically is focused on Greek life. However, you were a collegiate athlete as well, weren't you?  Carly Boyd: I was supposed to be but my sister was. At a Big Ten school as well. So I went to a Big Ten school and I was about to be and I backed out at the last  Kristina Supler: minute. Well, you're still qualified to answer my question or share some thoughts. So I'm curious, and Susan, feel free to chime in as well.  Susan Stone: Do I ever not chime in? True. Very true. come on. Are we, is this not real talk?  Kristina Supler: It's real. It's real. For better and for worse, right? But I'm curious that this notion of training and bystander intervention and having students feel free to Terrific question. Come forward and report when they see something that isn't right.  Do you think there's really any difference between how sports teams handle these issues versus Greek life? Is there you know at the core some cultural differences between the different environments? Or do you think it's the same foundational issues in terms of helping students understand what resources are available and how they can participate in a process if they choose to.  Susan Stone: That's so deep. Because basically, are you asking, is it the type of organization or is it just changing group think in general?  Kristina Supler: Exactly, because I'm thinking, what's the difference between a sports team and a fraternity or sorority if it's You know, there are obviously many differences, but in terms of these types of issues, what are your thoughts, Carly? Like a band.  Susan Stone: Does it really matter? Are we always picking on one type of organization for this? Or is it endemic to certain types of groups? I don't know. This is deep. Carly Boyd: I think it is. I'll go back to the sports versus their Greek life. I think sports has such a different environment because if you speak up, are you now going to be the starting position in your college team? Yeah, you speak up. And if you're not starting, are you then not getting to the next level? Are you not going to  Kristina Supler: Fear from retaliation? Right?  Carly Boyd: I think that is a much. Worse fear in sports is that retaliation. There's another person there to take your position on the team or on the relay if you speak up. And how easy it is to know. Yes, you didn't practice as hard. There's no measuring that. And all of a sudden, why would I speak up Greek life? If you speak up, you might have social implications. You're going to remove yourself from that fraternity. And I use the term fraternity for both sorority and fraternity. But I don't think there's as much future implications there if you are removed from Greek life. And I think that's where sports teams are different. I think that's where they foster a lot more is because they have a lot more on the line. Maybe, they've trained their whole lives to be there. They want to make their parents proud. They have this persona. I think that's where it's such a different mentality. Kristina Supler: Interesting. Well, and sports teams are also inherently competitive, Whereas Greek life isn't supposed to be, in an ideal way.  Susan Stone: Correct. Well, it's the opposite. It's fostering community and a family relationship.  Carly Boyd: That's absolutely correct. And I think, I do think that sports teams have both of that. When I was going to college and I decided not to swim, I did turn to the sorority life for that family. I was going out of state to a college and I wanted someplace where I could belong and meet people. But it is less competitive. I think there's a lot, there's a different, there's a different, that fear of retaliation, you are correct in how to look at that. I still  Susan Stone: wonder if at the heart of most claims is the root is drinking. The sexual assault, maybe even the bullying, feeling a little more comfortable to let certain words out of your mouth or treat someone in a different way that if you were sober, would you behave that way? From your work on the campus, how do you see? the drinking and the drug use. And do you agree with me that at the heart of it all roads lead to consumption?  Carly Boyd: I would imagine if you looked at the cases, where there's alcohol is a lot higher when there's not alcohol. And I think that's the hard part with Greek life is in Greek life, you have specific purposes of putting Fraternities and sororities at a social event, right? That's a very specific thing you do each fall, each weekend. And then there's alcohol at these events. So you're already putting yourself in a position of alcohol and partying. I believe if it's all done correct, it can be monitored and done right. But again, it goes back to, are people going to actually follow that? So you can have as many policies as you want as to managing alcohol, monitoring it. I don't see it as an issue necessarily. But I also wasn't there to see it on that level. I'll put that out there. So I was as an advisor knew what we approved what they came to us about. That was our role. And that's what we handled. if it's done right, you're get you're having sober monitors. You're having sober drivers. You're there was rules to prevent anything that goes wrong. Because I do believe it's around alcohol.  Kristina Supler: In your experience, Carly, how effective is bystander intervention training? Do you see students really taking that training to heart and implementing it? Carly Boyd: When it comes to bystander intervention training, I don't have as much knowledge on that and what is happening with that on campus or what maybe, if it's happening, I'm not realizing that's what it's called, I'll say. So what is, to you guys in your experience, what is a bystander intervention training specifically? Susan Stone: Teaching people to intervene if they see a buddy who's drunk, making sure that the person gets home safely, reporting if you see something happening that's concerning to  Carly Boyd: you. I think those are very important trainings, because I think, I was thinking about this, these are still college students that are young. They all come to college with different experiences and backgrounds. And they may not have the tools. They may not have never drank before. They've never been in those situations to have those training, at least planted in their mind of what they would do when they see it. And I think having more of those trainings and exposing people to those methods is beneficial to everybody. Kristina Supler: I would agree. I guess as a parting, note, Carly, what would you, for our student listeners out there, what would you like them to know or hear going into, being at the beginning of this school year?  Carly Boyd: I think it's important for the students to know that people do care. These resolutions are put into place to protect their students and that people are listening and they have heard and that there is, people looking out for them. They want to know if there are issues. They want them to be safe and that you can be a college student, you can be in the Greek life and enjoy it and not feel pressure or feel unsafe.  Susan Stone: One of the many joys of being a partner at KJK and working with attorneys like you, Carly, is that you mix your professional experience working with families and your personal life, working with people, volunteering, hoping that there are better relationships, because really that's what you are. You build relationships and when they're ending, you make sure that they end in what I would call a respectful way.  So thank you, and thank you for being on our podcast and enjoying a little student athlete defense time. Kristina Supler: Thanks Carly. Thanks for having me. 

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler talk about when and how parents should talk to their college bound kids about drugs and alcohol, practical advice about drugs on campus, and tips on how parents can better monitor their child's academics while on campus. Show Notes: (01:15)  When should parents talk to their kids about drugs and alcohol (03:57)  Tips to help parents have conversations with their kids about drugs and alcohol (04:31)  Borrowing another students medication and Fentanyl (05:11)  Dangers of mixing alcohol with medication (07:05)  Do you know the campus culture your student is going to be in? (08:34)  How to tell if your child is doing well in their classes (09:06)  Why parents need to get a FERPA (10:27)  Is your child a good fit for college?  Are they ready for college? (12:02)  The Red Zone:  Is your child at risk? Transcript: Susan Stone: I love having guests and actually I do too. I know I love talking to our guests. But sometimes I feel like our listeners miss out on what makes us. And that's just the two of us talking to other.  Kristina Supler: I have fun talking to you. And I think that we often,We have such different and unique life experiences and together I think we just have, interesting insights. Susan Stone: So you ready to talk? Let's talk. Okay. What are we talking about? I wanna talk about school starting. Kids are going off to college. Let's have a real conversation. What parents should say to their students about drugs and alcohol.  Kristina Supler: Let's. I think it's a good time of year for us to have this conversation because families are busy planning for the future. And sometimes that's when you just overlook these sort of foundational building block conversations with your kids. Susan Stone: I think the best place to start is really being honest with yourself where your student is with regard to their relationship with drugs and alcohol in high school. So for example, some kids, and I don't wanna label them, but some kids are not using drugs or drinking alcohol. They're just not.  Kristina Supler: Oh, absolutely. I think sometimes when there's discussion about these issues, it's easy to paint with a broad brush and say all high schoolers are partying and drinking and using drugs and having sex and engaging in everything over the top. But that's not always true.  Susan Stone: That's not true. So for those students, there's gotta be one conversation about, look, you're going to college, you're obviously gonna be exposed to this. You probably have already made choices that are good choices. Keep up the good work.  Kristina Supler: This makes me think also about being realistic. We say this a lot, but it's true. Be realistic about who your child is for better and for worse. In terms of how likely are they to succumb to peer pressure? Are they, is your child of the personality type of like more is always better? Or do you have a child who's more reserved and maybe shy and unlikely to jump into social situations.  Susan Stone: And anybody can be in a social situation and decide to make a choice to have a drink or experiment with something. I, and again, I hate the idea of labeling students, but anybody at any time can make a choice that doesn't turn out to end well.  Kristina Supler: I'm imagining some of our listeners saying, okay ladies, sure. You are assuming that parents have accurate insight into, how their children behave socially and maybe not all parents do, right? I agree. Agree. I mean, I, I,I think it would be, it would actually be foolish for us to assume that we know everything our own kids are doing. But I think you still know fundamentally who your child is in terms of tolerance  Susan Stone: and things like that. I agree. And I've also heard stories of students who were big partier in high school, got to college and really grew up and buckled down. So the reverse can be true. Just because you have a big partier in high school does not mean you're gonna have a partier in college. And just because you have a kid who doesn't party in high school doesn't mean that they're gonna stay that way in college. So I think the conversations must be had. So let's just highlight some of our favorite tips for parents.  Kristina Supler: I think. first of all, when talking to your kids about drugs and alcohol in college, it's just important to have a conversation about how there's more danger out there. And not to be fatalistic about what's out there in the world. But in this day and age, things are being recorded. The danger of drugs, it's so much more intense than it ever used to be.  Susan Stone: I'll give you an example. Fentanyl. Yeah, that was not a problem when I went to college. Did that in, was that on your campus?  Kristina Supler: No. Oh gosh, no. No.  Susan Stone: So we do know that there, every year there are students who borrow a Friend's a. A D H D medicine, for example, and the Adderall. The Adderall. And it's laced with fentanyl. It's really important to talk to your students that you are never, ever to use anybody's prescription drugs. If they need a prescription drug, they have to see a doctor and get their own prescription drug. That to me, is a rule that you just have to pound in your student's head. Please don't ever borrow anybody's drugs.  Kristina Supler: I'm also thinking about, we've had so many cases where, the students involved were experiencing some form of depression or anxiety and just navigating mental health issues. And in this day and age, it's fairly well known, but you can't assume everyone knows, mixing those prescription medications with alcohol can have really dangerous consequences.  Susan Stone: including feeling more depressed. Because alcohol is a depressant. So I think it's very important if you know your student is on various medications, to maybe even have a conversation with your student's doctor and get the facts straight. What will happen? Does it reduce the effectiveness of the medication? Does it increase depression? Education is the key there and a conversation about it is the key. Can we just talk about binge drinking now? That was around when I went to college.  Kristina Supler: Yes, indeed. Changed there and it sure is still here to stay, unfortunately. But I think that,with binge drinking, again, this idea of the hookup and everything that happens when students quote unquote party. We're just in a different day and age now. And some of that, I think there's many students out there who recognize that, but there's also many who don't.  Susan Stone: I'll tell you the difference that is new. I don't remember people planning on drinking so much that they became blackout or brownout drunk. That language of being blackout, brownout, gray out, that was not part of my college language.  Kristina Supler: When I was in school. I mean, I definitely had friends who talked about oh, I was so blacked out last night. But I don't remember anyone. going out with the goal of becoming blacked out. I, that's definitely, I don't know, I guess something that's quote unquote newer. I don't know. It's certainly not anything I experienced in college. The other thing that I'm thinking about though, as we're having this discussion is just the importance of being aware of the campus culture for the school where your child picked up. I agree. not all schools are alike.  Susan Stone: Some schools are big drug schools. Some schools are big drinking schools. Some schools don't have the same level of party atmosphere. And by the way, you can send your kid to the biggest party school. But that doesn't mean that they're gonna have that kind of friend group too.  Kristina Supler: Absolutely. Because if you think about it, also, many of the schools where, perhaps they're in cities, but not even necessarily if there's just more access to interesting things in the community. There's more for students to do other than party. I Susan Stone: agree. They're busier. There's more cultural outlets, more athletic outlets, more restaurants. I know as I'm looking at schools for my rising senior. It's very important for her to be in a city where there's great food. She's quite the foodie.  Kristina Supler: Amen.  Susan Stone: So let's talk about school.  Kristina Supler: academic consequences, right? Yeah.  Susan Stone: And the red flags for parents. You send Johnny, or Janie, or Barry, whatever name you have for your kid off to school. How do you know if they're drinking too much? You're not there.  Kristina Supler: Yeah. That's such a. You're right, you're not there, so you don't know. But I still think that as parents, I mean it with mothers or fathers in your gut, you know your kid. And we often have that sense, could something be off? So if you're calling your kid, texting your child and you're just not hearing back until you 2, 2, 3, you're asking them how's your economics class? And they don't really have anything terribly substantive to say. You think, gee, are you really going to class? What's going on here?  Susan Stone: Look at the grades.  Kristina Supler: Oh, that. I think one of the most important things that we should encourage our listeners out there to be on top of parents of college students, make sure you get assigned FERPA release. Otherwise you can wear your little heart out, call the school a gazillion times. You're not gonna get any information.  Susan Stone: And you still won't get information. Remember, this is college. So we do every year have parents who call us and say, why didn't the RA tell me that my student is drinking too much? That call is not gonna happen. Kristina Supler: Those are some of the, I think most difficult calls we get is they cry for help from parents after sometimes it's too late. And the anxiety and the anger, like, how could no one tell me? And we have to be the cold callous lawyers and say, legally, the school wasn't required to tell you anything. And every year we get so many of those phone calls. It's,  Susan Stone: it's hard.  that being said, If you need to make an executive decision. And you find that your student is not hitting the ground running, and the drinking and the partying are really getting in the way of success, it's okay to pull a withdrawal and say you're not there for the right reason. Get your head together. Come home. Maybe get therapy. And we'll evaluate whether you're at the right school or whether you're really ready.  Kristina Supler: Yeah, and it's Plans change, right? just thinking about the future and our hopes and dreams for our children. Again, so many people say, oh, such and such university was my dream school. If you're not going to class, if you're drinking too much, whatever the circumstance may be, if those things are happening, maybe it's not the right place for you. And it's okay to withdraw from school to transfer, to take some time off. you don't. There's nothing wrong with, thinking about maybe a leave of absence for a semester. Those are all important things for families to keep in mind.  Susan Stone: I do want parents out there to be aware of the withdrawal deadlines.  Kristina Supler: Oh, yeah. Good point. Let's talk about this more. Because every school can have different deadlines, and once the deadline's passed, It's passed.  Susan Stone: Right? So what that more specifically means if you can withdraw before a deadline, you don't have a failing grade on the transcript or an incomplete, you just have a withdrawal. The first couple weeks of college are the toughest for any student. And we all know that homesickness comes in. I say it takes until Thanksgiving break before you really know if something's a good fit. But, just do a little more check-in. Not too much. But do a little, be a little more on top of things as parents.  I would say. September, October, which also coincides with our Red Zone Talk. Hmm.why don't you tell, remind our readers, I know we and our listeners out there what a Red Zone is.  Kristina Supler: Sure. So the red zone is a hot topic of controversy. Is it a real thing? Is it not a real thing. But broadly speaking it, refers to periods of time on college campuses, colleges and universities, even high schools, where reports of sexual assaults increase.  And so students all the way around are just at greater risk for having to navigate, behaviors that could lead to the Title IX office.  Susan Stone: Our hope, to all of our parents out there and their students is they prepare and they're packing up for college, is that everybody has a safe experience, a healthy experience, and a happy experience. Because college is a great growing time. But if there's a bump on the road, pay attention to your campus resources.  Kristina Supler: It's really important that parents and students alike understand what resources are available through a college and university, and then also in the community where the school is located. Because, let's face it, some schools have more readily available resources than others. But students need to know where they can turn to for help, in any type of situation.  Susan Stone: And just like ET phone home. There's gotta be that conversation if something goes wrong, just feel that you can keep the lines of communication open with your student. I like this talk. This was a good way to help our listeners kick their students out of the nest.  Kristina Supler: Food for thought. Until next time,   

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Samantha Pierce, CEO of Renegade Soul.  In this episode, they talk about topics relating to health and fitness.  They discuss why physical fitness is mroe than just lifting weights, how grief recovery impacts our health and physical fitness, ways we can plant seeds to effect someone's trajectory change. Show Notes: (02:57) How Samantha is Much More than a Personal Trainer (04:11)  Sam's Plan to Build Confidence (06:33)  Shut Negative Self-Talk Down (08:10)  What Age Should Kids Start Exercising (10:08)  What Parents can do to Get Their Kids Exercising (13:44)  Body Dysmorphia: What We Can Do (17:06)  When to Tell If You Should Cut Back on Indulgences (19:13)  Why We Numb Ourselves with Food, Alcohol, Sex, etc (20:56)  Why Numbing Doesn't Work (21:58)  Grief Training:  Why We Numb Ourselves (25:20)  How Tragic Loss Changed Samantha's Trajectory (28:11)  How Grief Recovery Impacts Our Health Physical Fitness (31:14)  Alarming Stats with Grief Recovery and Prison Populations (34:22)  How Anything Can Plant the Seeds of Trajectory Change (36:34)  Reframing How You View a Bad Situation Into Something Positive Transcript: Susan Stone: We are going to talk a little bit about exercise and wellness and the benefits that you might not think you're getting when you get up and go to the gym in the morning. And I know that. A lot of our podcast, Kristina, is dedicated to mental health as it pertains to our clients. And just that when you find yourself in crisis, you get stuck. You think it's gonna last forever, whatever you're going on.  Kristina Supler: And some, sometimes it lasts longer than others, but I think today we are here to talk about how to get unstuck or to use the phrase of our esteemed guest effectuate a trajectory change.  Susan Stone: You know, when we learned about that phrase, I sound like my 17 year old mic drop trajectory change. Yeah, we love that phrase. Oh my gosh, I wish I had coined it. Because no matter what's happening in your life, no matter how dark things seem, Until it's over, you can do a trajectory change. And I'm really excited about this guest because she's gonna teach everyone out there who's listening to this podcast how they can have a trajectory change no matter what the circumstances. So with that, Given Invi an intro.  Kristina Supler: Sure. So today we are pleased to be joined by Samantha Pierce, who is the C E O and founder of Renegade Soul. Sam is a master's level social worker, a certified personal trainer, and a grief recovery specialist. With her background in social work, she really brings a holistic approach to her personal training. Sam designed Renegade to take care of black women of childbearing age in particular, and today she works with child, clients from all different backgrounds, ages, shapes, and sizes. And I have to add, I'm pleased to note that I am one of Sam's Renegades.  Susan Stone: You are. You have joined the Renegade Supler.  Kristina Supler: So happy to have done so. So Sam, welcome to.  Samantha Pierce: Thank you. Thank you. It's such a pleasure to be here with you ladies.  Susan Stone: So Sam, you are so much more than about just squatting and pushups. You, isn't that the truth? You are about trajectory change. So could you tell everybody about how you are so much more than just a personal trainer in what you do and what you bring to those clients? It's really incredible. It is.  Samantha Pierce: It's a loaded question, really. When people ask me what do I do, I just look at them like, well, where do you want me to start? Okay. So personal training is what I wake up in the morning and head out the door to do. But when you said trajectory change, the reason that I say that is because your life trajectory is something that we often study in social work. Especially when you get a person in front of you and then you just can't look at the person in front of you. You gotta look at their past and their parents' past and all those different pasts that sets them on this trajectory. But we are actually really in control. So when I'm at the gym with personal client, with personal training clients, a lot of times they come to me because they wanna lose weight. Sure. Literally, they have no idea that I have a whole different plan for them, right? Yeah. You gonna drop this weight, but we gonna work on, we gonna work on that gut that you're trying to lose. We're gonna, build arms and muscles and legs and all of that. We are also gonna build confidence. are going to work on where you are in your soul spiritually. Like you, you just never know what you're gonna walk into in the gym. On at any given time, on any given day.  Susan Stone: How do you do that?  how do you I think that  Samantha Pierce: I'm very open as a person and the conversation. I'm never, I am never afraid of a conversation. So I don't veer away from any conversation. Someone says, Tim, I really need to ask you this. Go right ahead. Because I'm an open book. But I think that is just where my life trajectory has me. That I've gone through a lot of hard things in my life. And instead of being quiet about it, I'm very verbal about it. I'm very open about it. And I understand, it might be too soon to even say this, but I'm just gonna say it. I understand God's plan.  That a lot of times things happen, but it is not, to put you in a bad place, but it's to put the next person in a better place because, oh, you're ready to come and master this thing. You're getting ready to move this mountain. So that you can teach the next person how to move that mountain. And there are people that are just watching you and they don't even need you to teach them to move, how to move the mountain. They're watching you do it, and they're already motivated. So things happen for a reason and sometimes it has nothing to do with you. So when we talk about getting into the gym and being able to talk to different people about different things and putting them on. Programs that will not only change their body, but also change their mind. That comes very natural to me, especially as a, I'm a I, I call myself a recovering community organizer and a social worker, so that's what I am, and then I use all of that energy and personal training.  Susan Stone: Sometimes I go to the gym and I have all this internal negative talk. My thighs look like this. My stomach looks like that. I'm getting old. Do you ever have that internal negative self-talk?  Kristina Supler: Oh my gosh. Every day I.  Samantha Pierce: Every day. I think I, yeah,  Kristina Supler: it's and it's one of those things where you feel frustrated at times when you put in all this work or at least what you believe to be hard works 'cause it isn't always right. and don't see results. And then that affects your mind, your spirit and it can continue on through your day. So it's something I've been working on personally is how to, Hold onto those endorphins and feeling good when I leave the gym and carry that through my day and not get bogged down in negative self-talk. Samantha Pierce: in Renegade land you aren't even allowed to come in with negative self-talk. Nope.  Susan Stone: But how do you know Sam, if it's going on the inside?  Samantha Pierce: How do you check that?  Well, you know what, it comes, it always comes out. If you're thinking it, it comes out. if a client says, I can't do that, that's automatically self negative, self-taught. And so before a client even comes into the gym, when they sign up, I send a welcome email and I send this link to a video that I did about I am statements and how careful you have to be with your I Am statements. And Kristina, I don't know if you watched that video or not, but it talked about, how God referred to himself as I am. And so anything that you say after I am is invoking the power of God himself. And in fact, if you say something negative, you might be just using his name in va. So you gotta be careful what you say behind I am. Because when people say I can't do a thing, or I'm fat, or I feel fat, or my stomach is that, and it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. We gonna re we gonna rephrase that altogether. So I am fat, meaning I am at the gym changing how I look because I want it to.  Kristina Supler: Love that I do too. Sam, let's roll it back to basics. As many of our audience listeners are parents who are raising children of all different ages. So at, for our parents out there who are listening who maybe have a child who seems to be a little stuck, particularly as we've gone through Covid these past couple years, what should parents know about the age at which children should begin exercising? Samantha Pierce: oh, that's easy. So exercising should begin. act actually exercising does begin at crawling. they're scooting, right? They're trying to move their bodies, trying to move their legs, move their hands a little bit. That's exercise. And as soon as they start walking, they take that first step and boom, they take off. You gotta chase them all around the house. 'cause now they know how to walk. I would say to cultivate that energy from that moment on, get them out into the park. They love that stuff. Anyway. They're gonna do whatever you wanna do anyway. And so I remember when my kids were younger that we would go into the mall when it's cold outside. So we are in Oh, wonderful. Weathered Cleveland. And so we get mostly cold weather and then three months of hot weather, right? So during the cold weather, we used to take our kids to the mall and we would just let them walk and just, that's just a way of moving your body a little bit. But there, it's never too soon to start your children on exercise. And exercise looks different for everybody and it doesn't have to be regimented like that. So when we think, oh, I gotta do my cardio, some people think, oh, I have to be on the treadmill, sweating my, my, my hair out in order to consider it as cardio. And it's no, not necessarily. you just have to undo. So Renegade needs to. to subside what you thought as societal norms is regular, right? So renegade is you have to forget everything you thought you knew, right? So everything you thought you knew isn't necessarily it. So when you think about your kids and exercise, just get them out there walking, moving. And then as you become, as they become older and you become more active, they will see what you are doing and they will automatically become more active.  Susan Stone: But how do you fight that teenager who just wants to stay in their room, play  Kristina Supler: video  Samantha Pierce: games? Yeah. I remind you, you're the parent. Oh yeah. Oh, Touche. Oh yeah. Say to them, you know what? Put the game up or you're gonna lose it for the month. We gonna go for this walk. And they're like, I don't wanna do that. You're the parent. Take it. Take that game away and make them go for that walk or wherever it is that you're trying to go. Susan Stone: not only are you a parent, and I love how you say you are the parent, but you are so in charge. When you're in the gym training, it's not just, like you say, get on that machine and. Do that leg lift, but you also have that I'm in charge. Go do it. And I think that really helps, don't you?  Kristina Supler: Oh, absolutely. I think that, something that's really important and wonderful about working with you, Sam, is this balance between. Go do it. But then also encouragement and positivity when there is a little like,no, it's no, go do it. You can do it. Which is refreshing and nice.  Samantha Pierce: Yeah, I wouldn't tell you to do it if I didn't think that you could do it's right. So here's the thing about that though, you have to have a certain level of confidence. And so you have to find as a parent what you're absolutely confident in. And so as a parent, I know for a fact that if I don't get my kid exercising, they're gonna grow up to be unhealthy. As a parent, I'm like, oh no, that's not gonna happen on my dime. You could do that on your dime, like when I'm long gone and you decide you're gonna sit on your butt for the rest of your life. I've already given you all that I can and I'm gone. But as long as I'm alive and you're under my care, then I am confident that if I tell you to do a certain thing, it is for your best interest and you're gonna get up and you're gonna do that. And it's the same way with dealing with clients. Kristina, grab those 20 pound weights and go lunch and you're looking like, what? And I'm like, yeah, I'm confident that you can make it down that aisle and back and that your legs are gonna be stronger and bigger because of it. So go do it. Like I said, it's the same thing as parenting you. You just gotta be confident in what you're telling them. Like when you give them that Tylenol, when they have that toothache, you know that Tylenol is gonna work. There's no question about it. You don't even leave room for, I don't wanna take the Tylenol. Nope. Take this Tylenol. You gotta have the same confidence when you're dealing with your kids and exercise. Susan Stone: How do you balance, because I know I struggle with this wanting to never, I grew up, Sam, I'm gonna share something with you where every girl I knew struggled with some level of body dysmorphia was. Either throwing up or starving themselves. And then I saw a positive shift of body positivity.  Kristina Supler: I was gonna say that those issues were still in my generation as well through high school and college. Everyone had some sort of issue going on.  Samantha Pierce: Right.  Susan Stone: So you wanna be potty body positive. But is there a point where you're also saying to someone, You don't wanna have that cookie and you do need to exercise. Like how do you balance those thoughts? And I know we've talked about this on prior podcast. And I'm bringing it up again, so it must be a real issue for me if I'm bringing it up again.  Samantha Pierce: So here, okay. I don't know if you've ever talked to a bodybuilder about this. has this conversation ever happened with a bodybuilder before? no, I have not had this conversation with therapist. Kristina Supler: Therapist. Okay. Or pediatrician. Or pediatrician. So Samantha Pierce: here it goes. We all suffer from body dysmorphia. Every last one of us. We all have something, especially as a, so what you didn't say is that I'm a bodybuilder and that I actually compete on stage. And let's just backtrack for two seconds and let you know that in itself is one of the hardest things that I've ever done in my entire life. And that is because every bit of body dysmorphia that I've ever had and is encompassed in that journey by itself. It is a 24 week journey to the stage, right? 24 weeks to get to the stage, and the body does so much in those 24 weeks. So we get to eat. Then we get to do all of this cardio, all of this lifting, and then all of a sudden we begin depletion and he starts cutting everything to expose the muscle, right? So when you are dealing with, how do you come away from the stage body? Because to get to the stage body, you have to do so many things that is not sustainable. So the stage body is not a sustainable body, no way, shape, or form. And I'm sure you've seen the pictures of all of the bodybuilders in the hallway. That is a body that we cannot maintain even if we wanted to because of how hard it's to get to there. That there is a point and the journey where we're literally eating about maybe 700 calories per day. I Susan Stone: can't imagine how I would think.  Samantha Pierce: Yeah. Yeah. I still don't know how I was thinking. But anyway, commitment and dedication, it gets to that point, and then you get, you hit the stage, it's lights, camera, action, and then boom, you're done. I don't know if you can think about how much of a a brain fart that could cause It's  Kristina Supler: whiplash. Yeah. All of a sudden you're done  Samantha Pierce: trying to balance, right? Do you run to Mitchell's to regular people? Regular people who struggle with a cookie? So I, and trust me, we get donuts every Wednesday in my house for the kids. It's donut Wednesday. We go get donuts before school and everybody eats donuts every Wednesday except for when I'm on prep. And so when it comes down to what the discipline is that is necessary to maintain, what I tell my clients is, when you're beginning a journey, you need to do what you regularly do, and then as the journey progresses, you start progressing. So I don't expect any client to come in and start training two to three times a week and then cut everything out of their diet. No, I tell them not to even change anything that they're eating. Let's get into the regimen of the workout first, and then as you progress and you want more, then you're willing to give up more. So then you're saying, eh, I plateaued. I'm gonna give up. I don't know, wine. Whoa. Those are Sam Wine. Kristina Supler: Sam, you struck a nerve. My gosh, Sam,  Samantha Pierce: anything but the wine.  Susan Stone: Okay. I'll fight you for my wine.  Kristina Supler: Okay.  Samantha Pierce: Wine and only have wine on the weekend. You're not gonna have wine every night. Maybe, oh, that got very personal. I had so many conversations with Susan where I'm like, it's real.  Kristina Supler: girl, you know you're not gonna cut the wine.  Samantha Pierce: But you never know. There may come a point in her fitness journey where she says, I can't get rid of this Pudge right here. And her trainer might say, give up wine for seven days and take a picture every single day, and then see what happens with your pictures and if you see a difference. And then at the end of seven days she'll say, wow, there's a huge difference here. That's a lot of sugar. And she might say, I'm not gonna drink any more wine, I'm gonna switch to vodka. True story. That is exactly what happened to me. So anyway, so the journey is the journey. But you have to be patient in any journey. Not just the fitness journey, but in any journey, you have to be patient and know that evolution is natural. You will evolve into the person that you need to be in order to do a certain thing. That is how God built us. So as you progress, you'll say to yourself, Kristina, one day you'll just come to me out of the blue and be like, This ain't working. And maybe I need a meal plan, and I'm gonna say, perfect. I've been waiting for you to say that. And then, because only when you say, I'm ready to make a change in this area, will you actually make the change in this area. And the meal plan may be something simple okay, what are you eating? Okay, let's do that every single day except cut this rice at the end of the night. Or, whatever the case may be. Something simple, but it. It's an evolution. And so the cookie that you struggle with is a matter of what do I want more? Do I want this cookie more? Do I want these abs? Because if what I really want is abs, then I, a cookie is nothing. I can say I forego that cookie. Let me see what my body does. If I don't do the, I already know what my body does when I eat the cookies. Lemme see what my body does when I don't.  Susan Stone: How does this mindset help college kids or kids of any age. Who suffer from anxiety and depression and wanna turn to alcohol or drugs  Kristina Supler: well or numbing out with food even, or  Susan Stone: numbing out with,  Samantha Pierce: we can numb out with just about anything. But can you numb out with exercise? You can actually, in grief recovery, I'm a grief recovery specialist. We call this, it's a disturb. Give me a second to pull this out of my brain. It is a temporary relief of of what you're feeling. I can't pull all of the S T E R b, I can't even pull it outta my brain right now, but it's a temporary relief of whatever it is that you're feeling and it comes out in many different ways. And exercise is one. Alcohol. Definitely one. Sex definitely one. There's so many different things that you can use as comfort, right? And so when you're talking about college age kids and, and high school age kids and anybody before and after, as a matter of fact, these behaviors are learned through just living. So they may have seen a parent do it that way. My parent comes home from a long day of work and what does he do? He grabs a beer. And so that's the behavior that we just learn, right? And what I would say when we are dealing with kids of any age and even adults our age, is that, sometimes it's, it is better to sit in the feeling and sometimes if uhoh, what did I, strike a nerve again, Susan. Susan Stone: Yeah, you struck a big nerve because I know that it is so hard. Just sit in the feeling. 'cause sometimes it just hurts. Feels yucky. Oh, it just hurts so bad. Yeah. It just gets you and you cry. But that's not bad is it?  Samantha Pierce: But it is hard to explain to children and young adults how bad it's gonna hurt when it comes back around. So you can numb this with alcohol, drugs, whatever, exercise, food, whatever it is that you're gonna numb that with. But when you, when the numbing subsides, you are going to feel it anyway. And it's hard to explain to children and young adults. It's easier to explain to an adult. I can say that to you and you say, oh dang. I hadn't thought about that. But kids, it, that's just not gonna sit with them. So a lot of times what they need is, we are talking about children and young adults. What they need is someone who can sit in it with them without the judgment. Now, are you a parent that's going to be able to sit with them? I'm a trainer that can sit with clients. So a really good example is a client comes in and she's in full blown tears. And you know her. She's I can leave if I need to. And I'm like, no, you here. You're here for a reason. Let's sit in this and, figure out what needs to happen next. And so a lot of times though, I do a lot of grief, not a lot. I do grief training, right? I have clients that come to me out of grief, and their training looks different. In fact, a lot of times their training is separate from everyone else because what they need is a quiet space where nobody's around and like a million wrecks of something that they can just say, okay, she told me to do a hundred squats. I'll never get through these a hundred squats, but at least now I have something to do. And distraction. and they just start moving, right? And I'm just standing there like this,just, waiting for them to do whatever it is. They might do 20 of them and then they'll turn around and say, was that a hundred girl? Yes, that was a hundred. Let's move on to the next thing you know, and that as long as you can move your body, Grief and pain and things like that, it just helps. And but I know that because I am a grief person, like I work in grief recovery. I, my specialty is child loss, parents and grief. So what I,  Susan Stone: What could be more painful? What could be more painful? Nothing.  Samantha Pierce: I'm sure there is some things that could be more painful, but I think it depends on who you're asking. Like I think that the child loss has been my greatest pain. But somebody else could say that rape has been their greatest pain. Okay. It just depends on, see, child loss can happen to, to two different people and it affects them differently. Sure. And that's not to negate abortion as child loss because that affects people differently too. People come from different backgrounds and what they view as the most painful thing they've ever experienced is going to differ from person to person. I  Susan Stone: remember I had two miscarriages. And I remember after both miscarriages, my mother saying to me, that's just God's way of making sure you only have a healthy child. And I remember thinking, that does not help. That was not helpful, mom. I know she meant to help. She meant well. But she missed. Missed the mark. She did mean well. But she missed the mark on that. 'cause I was grieving.  Samantha Pierce: Yes. And so your mom is of a different generation. And they don't know how to put that into a healthy place. And grief recovery, we talk about this all the time, spiritual truths that are just not helpful. And then people, people come to you and say, God gives, and God takes away. And it's I know. That don't help. Just like you just said that don't help, and that doesn't mean that God didn't want me to have a, an unhealthy baby because there are children out here with autism and children with other special needs that are born and that are good. So it's not like God was just trying to protect me from a thing. It's just, this just happened and now I have to deal with it. Yeah, I think different things hit people differently, and generationally speaking, we are differently equipped to deal with certain things.  Kristina Supler: Sam, I'd like to hear a little bit more about your grief recovery training. That's something I've never heard of before and I just think it's interesting 'cause it sounds and please tell me if I'm wrong, it is a combination of in many respects, meditation and exercise in a way.  Susan Stone: And this is great because I know you may not know this. Kristine and I both love yoga, so  Samantha Pierce: I think I did know that. Yeah. Love my yoga. I'm a yoga instructor. So grief recovery is, it now, after the twins, I have twins that passed away. They were born at 21.6 weeks, and they had no chance of living because they just didn't have lung function. And they each lived about an hour after they were born, and they were born on separate days. One came. And then we had to induce the other. Oh my gosh. And so after that, my husband and I went to tons of counseling. We saw, we saw a group,which was great. We went to phototherapy, we went to individual counseling. We did all kinds of different counseling. And it wasn't until during my work on a pregnancy and infant loss committee for the county that they brought in a grief recovery specialist. What they were doing was, and I did not know this, they threw me into this mix. But what they were doing was they were going to make everyone on the committee go through grief recovery method. And then they were gonna train us to become grief recovery specialists. So they signed us up for the Grief Recovery Group. And I went to it as an eight week group. This one in particular was an eight week group. And I was like, yeah, I'm here for child loss. yada, yada, yada. And when I got there, we were talking about all kind of other losses. We were talking about losses of teddy bears when I was six years old and what that did to me and what that meant, and loss of keys and job interviews and stuff like that. I'm sitting there, I'm confused, I'm just like, what? What are we doing here? And it was the most thorough, I actually called the, my, the chair of my committee, and I was like, I'm not doing this. This is not what I signed.  Kristina Supler: I think they put me, I'm in the wrong group. I belong in  Samantha Pierce: the group down the hall. Yeah. what are we doing? Like, why are we talking about all these different losses? And I'm tore up from the floor up, like I'm just gone. And she was like,no. This is accurate. You are okay. Just stay with the group. And so when I completed it, what I realized is that this was the most thorough grief class I have ever participated in. And it starts from childhood and then it takes you through a relationship. So what we say in grief recovery is that grief begins as soon as you come out the womb, right? You come out of that warm space, you are covered. You come out, it's cold, there are bright lights, you cry and some doctor slaps you on the butt. And this is your intro to life.  Susan Stone: How do you incorporate that knowledge in the Renegade Group you run?  Samantha Pierce: Oh, honey, I spot them. Actually, in fact, I've had several renegades go through, grief recovery method. I offer them a discount. I did a group of Renegades, but when, like for the example that I gave you a little while ago, the lady that came in absolute tears, I said, you need grief recovery and we're gonna start that next week. And I took her through the for one-on-one and seven weeks, the seven week program, and she was like, I didn't even realize I was dealing with all of this. Because a lot of times listen carefully to this. We did not talk about this before, so this was never in any of the prep questions, but a lot of times you get stuck a journey. Journey. And it's related to grief. It's not related to anything else.  So you think you're stuck because you wanna eat macaroni and cheese in a fitness journey. But the truth is, you're stuck because you've got this unresolved relationship of a person that is gone from your life, has been gone from your life for 20 years, and you're stuck in emotion that you didn't realize and that has got you not able to make other changes because this person loved macaroni and cheese, they always made it for me. And so I'm gonna eat it. It was my beloved mother. Whatever the case may be. And this is just a wild example. So this is not anything that has actually happened, but this macaroni and cheese is in your way of your ads. And so when we go through the grief recovery method, when we start talking about what different relationships affected you, and you start working through relationships for the unresolved things that happen and unsaid things that you never got to say before they left your life, whether it was from death or just Estrangement, it is, it just opens up a different world in your brain of being able to deal with other things because now you can see, oh, this was compounded with that and this, and I've never been able to deal with this particular situation, and so I've never been able to trust another person. With this part of me, you, it just opens you up to something totally different and a different piece. A different piece of healing that can occur.  Susan Stone: We, Kristina and I deal with sex issues every day. Every day we talk to college kids about sex. We help students on their journey dealing with either defending against an allegation of sexual assault and what that feels like to be accused, or people who have been have  Kristina Supler: experienced sexual violence. Susan Stone: And we talk every day about that. I'm wondering, and we're seeing a lot of. Violent behaviors in the college dorm room. And I'm wondering if grief ties into sex and in the way we have sex and the way we make love with each other. Do you have thoughts on that?  Samantha Pierce: I got a lot of thoughts on that. Let's back up. I saw a study, a long time ago that said that 60% and this number could be off. And I don't recall where I saw the statistics, but we probably can find this somewhere, but it was something like 60% of the prison population was heavy in grief. And can we just add, oh my gosh,  Susan Stone: that's  Samantha Pierce: amazing. We put every single person that's sitting in prison and took them through grief recovery or some other grief, acknowledged their grief and help them work through whatever it is that they're grieving over and allowed them to begin a healing process. How that might change.  Susan Stone: How about getting them before the crime is committed? Samantha Pierce: If we could only get them before the crime is committed, right? Then our prisons would look totally different. but it's hard to get to people because again, grief begins at such a young age. We all have this backpack and every little loss that occurs, we add rocks to the backpack. It just becomes heavier and heavier. So when you're talking about sex, grief, hurt, people do hurt people. I hate that saying, but it's absolutely true, right? If you are a hurt person, you don't know any other behavior than to hurt the people around you. A lot of that has to do deal with you not being able to trust the people around you, and so you cut them off and you hurt them. So when you're dealing with dorm rooms and violent sexual behavior and people, young people, young minds trying to deal with a social media parents. Siblings school and grades and studying and parties and Greek life. I wanna join a sorority, fraternity, whatever. All of this other stuff is happening. And then by the way, I haven't healed from whatever happened to me back home before I got to the dorm room, right? So if you are dealing with all of that, and this is a very young mind, this is not a mature mind. You are going to need some help in placing things in the right compartment and dealing with things and healing. So even though we didn't talk about grief recovery and our preparation for this, I would thoroughly suggest that college age students, so we do grief recovery method for 18 and up, that college kids all go through grief recovery like that would almost be. That should be a curriculum change actually, because then you start to work through relationships all the way up until they got to 18 and then moving. Susan Stone: That's a trajectory change. That's a trajectory change. Jack. That is a, that was, yeah. You gotta start that business.  Samantha Pierce: Oh, here you go. And I'll Susan, you know me well and you haven't even known me long. I see  Kristina Supler: you. I think seeds are planted. Seeds are planted.  Samantha Pierce: And that's So what is trajectory? What is the trajectory change? It literally is seeds being planted. It literally is. If you can plant a seed in the mind of you got it else, then you can change the trajectory of the life of a young person simply by introducing a thought. That something else is out there. I remember I took, my, my neighbor at my old house. She thought that the world was right there in our little corner of the street, right? And so I took her with me and the children. We went to my doctor's house, and she lives all the way out in her Aurora. She's got this big swimming pool in her yard. Sauna and closed in deck and it's like this big mansion, right? And I'm like, we're going to, see my doctor, do you wanna come? And she's yeah, I'll come. And I took her over there and she saw this place and she was like, people live like this. This isn't just on tv. And I'm like, yeah. we don't live like this yet, but We'll, like This is just, you sometimes all you need is a level of exposure to change your whole outlook on life. And if you want it bad enough, you'll change your trajectory on your own.  Kristina Supler: Wow. I'm just processing that.  Susan Stone: That's, I'm about to break down and cry. Yeah. I'm feeling very, I'm a little f clumped. Yeah. You say it's a really  Kristina Supler: powerful,I gotta be honest, I think that's our ending thought. It's just powerful. The idea that we can effectuate our own trajectory change bit by bit, and then even more so with community around us, helping to lift us up and empower us. But it, so much does start from within. Samantha Pierce: From within. And if it's not within and you have somebody around you to input it, that's even better. Like the work that you ladies are doing with these children, I say children because even college kids are, They're children. Oh,  Kristina Supler: that go on and on, on  Samantha Pierce: and on about that. If you could just, feed them positive thoughts, like they're in a bad situation. It looks grim for them, but if you could just say to them, if you can input this thought of Yeah, but God's gonna use you anyway. You're gonna have this really abundant life. Eyes have not seen, ears have not heard what God has for you, honey. And when they, you look at that and you say, and you can give them examples of that, and you can point out people that have lived through really hard times, like start looking at these celebrities that they love so much and find out their backgrounds. Oh, so and so did this and they come from the projects. whatever the case may be, if you can overcome a thought process. And Susan, Kristina, y'all think about back when y'all went to law school. There was something that made you go to law school, right? There was something there that said, this is what I'm gonna do, and you showed up every single day. There has to be something in each of these children that makes them show up. But if you can find out what that is, then you can tap into that and you can keep them either moving in the right trajectory or changing it. This bad thing. Yes, it happened to you, but it doesn't have to define you. maybe it happened for you. Not to you. Maybe this was an eye-opening thing that's gonna change the way you affect, and I'm talking about the children. You went through this thing so that you can help change the world.  Kristina Supler: Powerful thought. I  Susan Stone: really powerful thought. I just think about, we do a lot of talk with, especially with my K through 12 practice, and those kids who are on IEPs, individual education plan about transition planning. But we don't really, we talk about sex ed and we talk about occupational advice, are you gonna be a doctor, lawyer, candlestick maker? But we really don't prepare people for just the pain of life. Yeah. And that's what you can offer the world. And that's what you do. You are the navigator of that trajectory change once you get stuck in life. And we thank you for the work you do with people.  Kristina Supler: Oh, thank you. I agree. And Sam, we are so pleased that you joined us today. Thank you for sharing. So much insight and food for thought and wisdom with our listeners. Thank you so much. it was really a pleasure chatting with you today.  Samantha Pierce: So much for me y'all. 

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Becca Gruenspan of RG Adoption Consulting.  In this episode, topics include the myths around adoption, how adoptive parents can improve their chances of a successful adoption, and the competing emotions between birth parents, adoptive parents, and the adopted child. Links: RG Adoption Consulting: https://rgadoptionconsulting.com/ Show Notes: (02:40)  How One Adoption Lead to a Purpose-Filled Mission (06:39)  Why Becca focuses on domestic adoptions (08:47)  Greatest Fear: Will the Birth Mother Show Up Again? (11:03)  Adoption Roadmap: the Proprietary Process to Help Adopting Parents (13:54)  Details Matter:  What is Important to the Birth Mother (15:16)  How RG Adoptive Consulting Helps Improve the Chances of Success (17:36)  What Some of the Difficult Obstacles are for Adoptive Parents (19:31)  Addiction:  How Babies Fare When Born Addicted to Drugs (21:26)  Competing Emotions:  What Birth Parents and Adoptive Parents Feel (24:43)  What Adoptive Children Struggle with Emotionally Transcript: Susan Stone: We're gonna talk about adoption today. And the reason we're gonna talk about adoption is that in our special education practice, we've represented a number of families of adopted kids, and the unique issues that children or students who are adopted had such as, attachment issues.  Kristina Supler: I'm really excited about today's episode. Because Susan Adoption's something that, you and I have no direct personal experience with. But it's an issue that comes up so often in our cases. And we regularly see the issues that adopted children's often experience in schools. And then the issues that the PA parents and families navigate through as well. Susan Stone: I agree. And at this point I think I've worked on close to 50 to a hundred cases where there has been a student with an issue that is direct, directly related to the fact of the adoption status. But again, by the time you come to our office, it's because there is a need or a crisis or an issue that needs to be worked out. I hate the fact that I never get to hear the success stories.  Kristina Supler: I know. I'm excited for today's guests to, to learn more about the adoption process, some of the challenges, but then also the good things and the success. Because you're right, Susan, we don't often hear about that so  Susan Stone: We never, I just wanna remind you, remember I always say we only get to see the dark side of life sometimes. It's great to see when things go swimmingly well.  Kristina Supler: With that, let's welcome our guest today. We are joined by Rebecca Gruenspan. And Becky is a single mom who herself has gone through open adoption. She founded RG Adoption Consulting shortly after adopting her son in 2011. And we're so happy to have you with us today. Susan Stone: And do you go by Becky, Rebecca.  Becca Gruenspan: Becca.  Susan Stone: Thank you. Okay,  Kristina Supler: Becca, tell us a little bit about your role as the Founder and CEO of RG Adoption Consulting. Becca Gruenspan: Thanks for having me today. I started my business, we're about to be celebrating our 10 year anniversary. Um, wow.  Susan Stone: A decade.  Becca Gruenspan: Yes, we're very excited. I started it two years after I adopted my son as a single woman, at the time who had gone through years of infertility and just really knew I was meant to be a mom. And I really wanted to be a mom. So I sought out first on the fertility path. And after that I failed, for lack of a better word. I thought about adoption. But it really scared me probably for all the reasons you said you don't hear the good side. I was scared 'cause that was all I knew to, as well as all the stories I put into my head about what it meant to have to, to adopt. And then I was put in touch with, and it was also very overwhelming having gone through so much loss already. And long story short, I was put in touch with an adoption consultant. And I was told that this consultant was gonna hold my hand, tell me what to do, and how to do it and where to go and what to read and what not to read. And I was like, okay, I could use an easy button I'm around about now. And nine months to the day that I first called my consultant, I had my son in my arms.  Susan Stone: So it was a great experience using a consultant. Correct?  Becca Gruenspan: It was. Interestingly, I was told because I was in my forties and single and Jewish, that it was gonna be really hard for me. But voila, nine months later, I adopted. So it was a very, great experience. Also scary. And I knew that, after I adopted my son, I wanted to help other people and I became this magnet to people who wanted to adopt. And I was very, passionate about the fact that they really needed help going through this. Because you don't know what you don't know. Sure. Long short, two years later, I became an a consultant myself. And I thought, gosh, I'm putting all this money into my consultant that I use Pocket. I think I can do this now. I. and so that's when I started my business.  Susan Stone: Kristina. I had the privilege of actually going to yoga and having dinner with Becca. And I learned that Becca's not alone in this venture. How many people work for your business?  Becca Gruenspan: Yeah, I think there, my team is seven or eight people right now. And we are all across the country. And we only work with the hopeful adoptive parent. We do not work with the birth mom or expectant mom. So that's really a distinct, a distinction between an adoption consultant and other entities such as a facilitator or an adoption agency. We are not.  Susan Stone: So you are hired by the potential parents. And I just for clarification purposes, you only work on domestic, not international adoptions. Am I Correct?  Becca Gruenspan: You are correct.  Kristina Supler: Tell us why. But what's the difference between the two. Or why did you choose to just focus on domestic?  Becca Gruenspan: I can't even talk to you that much about the difference between the two because there is a big difference. And so it's like you go down one path or the other, as well as like foster to adopt. That's a whole nother path as well. Each path has its own nuances, its own clearances, its own licensing. And it's done. Each is done very differently and is its own separate path, even though the end result is being an adoptive parent. So I didn't know anything much about, international. I know just enough about all three routes that I just mentioned to talk about the pros and cons of each. But not enough to really guide someone through those, those paths.  Susan Stone: Certainly if you chose domestic and that's what your business is focused on. Can you tell us what the benefits are of a domestic adoption?  Becca Gruenspan: Sure. I think the biggest benefit is the fact that most domestic adoptions now are open on some level. Now that automatically scares people. And people have all sorts of questions about, is that a good thing? Aren't you scared that your child is gonna want to go back? Is, aren't you scared that someone's gonna show up at your doorstep? And the fact of the matter is 20 years ago, most adoptions were closed. And what that does is create a sense of fantasy in a child's mind about where they came from and who they are instead of a reality and an openness about. Everybody wants to know who they are and where they came from, right? Your identity is such a huge part. It's everything, of who you are. And so by able, by being able to have an open adoption, you can know health history, you can have a relationship with the first mom or the birth mom and the birth dad. You can see what kind of life they have.  So a child is no longer needing to live in this fantasy world of where they came from, who they are, what other people look like them. There's so much good about a healthy, open adoption relationship. And that doesn't mean it doesn't come with some complications. Sometimes it does. And healthy boundaries need to be put in place. It's Cousins, right? Having, you don't, you're not best friends with all of your cousins in your extended family. But you learn how to live together and navigate the relationship. And some are great and super, super close. And some are a little bit more difficult and you have to, manage that. Kristina Supler: Well, it's interesting to hear you talk about the benefits of open adoption, but also the importance of boundaries. Because I know that sometimes, there's a fear. if we do an adult, an open adoption, the birth mom's gonna come back and haunt us or try to take the child back. Is  Susan Stone: Well Becca just mentioned it. People think they're gonna show up at the door.  Kristina Supler: How realistic, of course there's always extremes. But in general, is that. Just a myth that's taken hold? Or is it something that rarely happens or can you talk a little more about that?  Becca Gruenspan: It is absolutely a myth. It really, I don't. I don't even think I know one situation where that's happened. The laws  Kristina Supler: that's really a powerful piece of information there. Yeah. That you just shared with us.  Becca Gruenspan: The laws are in place to protect everyone really. And every state, and this is the confusing part, every state has its own set of laws around when a mother can terminate her rights, like at what point after birth can a mom terminate her rights as a parent. And at what point It's irrevocable. So every state has different laws. So for instance, we tend to work in states where an expectant mom can sign her rights away can terminate her parental rights between 24 to 72 hours and then it's irrevocable. You cannot change your mind by law. Unless you can prove that it, they were made to sign under duress or fraud. Susan Stone: You mean 22 to 72 hours? I wanna clarify after birth.  Becca Gruenspan: I'm sorry, ask me that again.  Susan Stone: You said 22 4 to 72 hours, but you, I just wanna clarify for our listeners. You mean after the birth of the child?  Becca Gruenspan: After the birth of the child. Now that's just some states. Every state has different laws about the length of time you have to wait. Some they can sign right away. But then they have 30 days to change their mind. That's scary for an expectant, for an adoptive parent. That's also nerve wracking, I would think, for a birth mom who just gave birth, who had already kind of worked through all of this. Hopefully they were getting good options, counseling and went through all the things to make sure that the, this decision was the right decision for them.  But again, every state has their own laws and we tend to work in the ones that are more compact.  Susan Stone: So does your business focus on the potential parent that wants to adopt until what point? Do you take them through when the baby gets in their hands? Or are you there to provide support and services throughout the life of the adoption, the childhood.  Becca Gruenspan: Great question, and this is I think, what differentiates maybe RG Adoption Consulting from other consultants. So we have a four step proprietary process called the Adoption Roadmap.  Kristina Supler: Very, tell us about the roadmap. Becca Gruenspan: Yeah, take a second. The adoption roadmap has four different steps to it. So we work with to, to answer your question simply, we work with people from the very, very beginning. I wanna start the process and I don't know how. All the way their contract ends once they bring their baby home. However, we work with our families for a lifetime. So the four steps are this: one is we educate people about adoption. So we want people to understand what the process is going to look like before they start it. So that there's not any real surprises as they're going through the process and then we help them, find the right places to go to get what's called a home study, which is the legal process that they have to go through to be approved to be able to adopt a baby. So every person has to go through what's called a home study. Somebody comes to your home, they interview the people in the family, they make sure you have the right finances, they do FBI clearances, all of that to be able to make sure that you are who you say you are. And that you are able and well to take care of a baby or a child in your home. And then the second step is the storybook process where you put together what's called an adoption profile. It's a storybook of your life through pictures and letters. Think Shutterfly book. But we do even nicer ones 'cause we work with a designer. So we help them do that because that is the sole tool that's used for an expectant mom to choose who she wants or who they want if dad's involved too, to parent their child.  Susan Stone: Wow. Is it like a dating app almost? a more detailed book.  Kristina Supler: Pitch for your family, right? Yeah. Yeah.  Becca Gruenspan: you're really showing an expectant mom. What is your child gonna look like in our life? Let me try to give you a little bit of a picture, a little bit of peek into our window of life. Susan Stone: Wow. Tell us what goes in that book. I'm so fascinated.  Becca Gruenspan: Yeah, it's really cool. And this is where I love working with families 'cause I get to know them on such a  Kristina Supler: deeper,  I'm sure that process personalizes everything for  Susan Stone: like, you show the house, the family dog, the kitchen, what's in the cupboard.  Becca Gruenspan: You know what? That might be a good thing. I'm gonna use that next time. What's in the, what's in your cupboards? But those, funny you should ask that, but sometimes it's exactly those little details. Sure. Mom like, go, oh my god. I can relate to this. Or I love this about them. and sometimes people don't realize how important those little details are in their life. Who are their friends? What are the, what does their friend makeup look like? Is it diverse? is it not diverse? Does everybody look the same? Does anybody have tattoos? Do they not? Do you have dogs? What does your family look like? Where do you go on vacation? Where do you work? All those things are really important. And so the pictures are important. The words are important. The stories are important to really relay and get the feeling of your personality across. So it's, I hate to use the word marketing tool, but if you're gonna if anything, it is a marketing tool on who your family is. And a lot of people don't understand either that in most cases, an expectant mom chooses the family. So it's like they both choose each other. She first chooses them. But then they have to also say, yeah, I, after learning about her and her situation, we choose her too. And then a match is made. Kristina Supler: Becca. I'm wondering,if a family, an individual or a family really want to adopt domestically, how likely is it for to be successful in the process? Are there instances, is it common for a family to maybe not, be chosen or be able to adopt? Or in the US is it generally if a family or individual wants to adopt, they'll be able to? Becca Gruenspan: Yeah. So to help answer that question, I'm going to explain my step three in the process, which is where they put together their agency portfolio. So let me ask you guys a question, and this is a question I always pose to people wanting to find out about our process. When you go to a financial planner and you say, here's a million dollars I wanna invest, wouldn't that be nice? First of all. Do you, will that financial planners say, great. We're gonna put it all into this one stock. No, you diversify. Exactly. And that's the strategy that I use with my family. So instead of putting all your eggs in one basket and signing up with one agency, say, we're gonna pick the largest agency. It's $15,000 up front. And we're gonna, they have great success. I say, why don't we sign up with three or four agencies for $5,000? And that way you're at way more places. Plus when agencies and attorneys are stuck and either don't have the right family for what an expected mom is looking for. Or maybe they don't even keep a list because sometimes that's a pain for them. They'll reach out to me and say, do you have any families for this particular situation?  So now I have a family who's at four agencies that they've signed up with. Plus I'm getting situations every month that I'm sending to them. Their chances of matching successfully are so much higher because their profiles in front of more people. They're seeing more situations. So to answer your question, it's very high percentage of people who are successful. In fact, the people that I have worked with who have not been successful are really, truly only the people who give up. If you don't give up, your chances are very high to adopt.  Susan Stone: Are there certain adoptions that are more difficult, such as you mentioned that you were single Jewish female? Are interracial differences a problem, same sex couples, like what is the most, is there, I'm just curious about the difference  Kristina Supler: Profiles that are chosen more often or, less frequently.  Becca Gruenspan: So the ones that are most difficult are families with multiple children already. I'd say if. If it's a couple, if you're both over 50, but, and if you're single over 50, that's gonna be more difficult. I can see that. Yeah. Yeah. And then the more narrow your criteria is, the more difficult it's gonna be. As open as you can be, the easier it's gonna be. So sometimes people will come in and have a gender preference and have a preference on are very narrow on, they don't want any drug exposure or they don't want any mental health. Yeah. And that's gonna be much more difficult 'cause then we're looking for more of a unicorn. And that's, those people are not placing their babies. Yeah, those people aren't the children. They cannot, handle because of their life situation to parent at that time. So you have to be wow open and you have to do a lot of education to understand who is an expectant mom. And typically it's a woman who has multiple children already. Who can't hold down her job because she can't afford childcare and parenting. Who can't afford another child and maybe just lost her condo. So is going from family member to family member or friend to live with heart. Heartbreaking. Yeah. And maybe,birth father isn't involved. And he has five other children of his own that he doesn't support either. This is just one scenario. There is no two scenarios that are the same.  Susan Stone: How do the kiddos that have come from birth mothers who have used alcohol and or drugs fair? We deal with those, that population and it, the cases again, that we see, it's a rough road  Kristina Supler: Right. The, the impact of fetal alcohol syndrome is lifelong.  Becca Gruenspan: Yeah. The good news is we do not see alcohol as an issue as much as drugs. And opioids, we all know about the opioid epidemic in the world. And that certainly translates into the expectant moms and the birth moms that we are seeing and that our clients are working with. alcohol is, is rare. More rare  Susan Stone: With the babies, how long do those babies go through withdrawal at  Becca Gruenspan: birth?  Yeah. What I have seen with through my client's eyes is typically three to five days. Oh. Sometimes less, sometimes more. But the good news is these babies are so resilient. And we have had many a, an adoption medicine doctor speak to our community and the children fare very well. They do well once they go through that with withdrawal. And I'm talking the drugs more than the alcohol. But opioids they tend to thrive really, and grow up just like any other, child as it pertains to those, that substance exposure.  Kristina Supler: You're listening to, you speak it, it's really reminding me or making me think about what a complex process adoption is emotionally In terms of, for the parents or individual who are adopting the child. It's an exciting and happy time. Maybe, some anxiety as well. But at the same time, how do you reconcile that with the idea that perhaps a beautiful thing in your life is beginning on the heels of a heartbreak or a tragedy in someone else's life. Whether it's substance abuse or whatever the circumstances are for why the child is being put into the adoption system.  And so how do you, how do you talk to parents about that or prepare them to work through all those competing emotions?  Becca Gruenspan: Well, you hit the nail on the head. Because every adoption starts with trauma. It starts with loss. And it is. Imagine being in a hospital. And on one side, and I have the chills talking about it on one side. Susan Stone: Oh my gosh. Me too. I'm just thinking about it.  Becca Gruenspan: Are so excited that their dream is coming true.  On the other side, you have a woman who is doing the most difficult thing that she could ever do in her life. And probably is really suffering because of this decision that she had to make for whatever reason. And in the middle. You have a child that is feeling maybe not consciously yet, both sides of that. So this child is growing up having experienced loss for the very first breaths of their lives. And that stays with them. We try to do another thing that really differentiates RG Adoption Consulting is that is the education component. So education and community, I believe, are two things that you cannot go through this process without. You need education, which never ends. I am almost 12 years in and I learned something all the time about what my child is experiencing and the different developmental stages and what, how they process identity issues at different stages. And if I didn't commit to continually learning, I. from adoption professionals and trauma specialists, I wouldn't understand how to be the best parent for my child. So when when you choose adoption, you really have to know that it's at least an 18 year commitment. And that you have to commit yourself to continuing to learn about your child. Because if you don't, your child is going to, No, it's gonna affect your child. And ultimately, everybody wants to be a good parent to their child, right? And if you're not doing the work, that's only going to get in between your relationship with you and your child.  And so there are so many layers. So education and community, just being around people who have, who understand this in a way that nobody else does, you know as well-meaning as our friends and families are. They don't know.  Susan Stone: I just wanna interrupt. I remember when we had dinner. Yeah. And I made the comment that children who get to land in wonderful homes are so lucky. And you really corrected me rightly so that is not a great way to frame adoption. Because there are aspects that are unlucky.  And we all have visions of Daddy Warbucks and Orphan Nanny, and everybody's dancing off the stage. But we have to remember that as wonderful as your adoptive parents are, children are conflicted. When does that conflict get integrated? Or does it ever, if ever, yeah.  Becca Gruenspan: You know that term lucky, right? Everybody can feel lucky. Individually at different stages throughout this process, right? From all different, we call it the adoption triad or the adoption constellation. So it's the adoptive parent, the birth parent, and the, adoptee. If somebody says to my child, wow, you're so lucky. You guys are so lucky you have each other. That doesn't give my child who may be struggling internally, because of the adoption, that doesn't give him room to have those feelings of, wow, why does, struggle of all the feels. Because that puts so much pressure on him to have to feel like, oh, I'm supposed to be really grateful to my grateful. Yeah. And that's a lot of pressure for someone to go through life feeling I can't ever talk about what I'm experiencing as an adoptee. I don't look the same as anyone else in my family. But I'm supposed to be this one way because everybody tells me how lucky I am.  Kristina Supler: That is really powerful food for thought, Susan. I would've made the same, gaff that you did. And I, it's just, a different perspective that I'd never thought about and, I hear you, Becca. That's really, thank you for sharing that. Because I hadn't really thought about, the alternative considerations.  Susan Stone: And when I made the comment and you responded in such a poignant way, it's obviously stuck with me. And I probably will stick with me for life because I was like, wow, not that all children. I know I have the talk with my kids. You don't appreciate me. I think all parents that feel that way. Have you ever said that  Kristina Supler: to your kids?  Never. I feel appreciated and valued every day. Yeah.  Susan Stone: yeah. I'm still working on it and my oldest is 25. But and I do say that to my kids. Show a little gratitude. But, we have to remember the circumstances. Becca, I could talk to you forever and in fact, this is my second time talking to you and I still have more. So we might have to do a part two with you. Okay. I would love that. And it's just great having you as  Kristina Supler: it's been wonderful talking. Yeah. And a lot of good information, for our listeners out there. And we are really appreciative of your time today. So thank you.  Becca Gruenspan: Thank you. Thank you. 

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Mark Coffin, the owner and President of Academy Custom Test Prep.  In this episode, they talk about the sweep changes coming to the SAT.  Topics include what big changes are coming to the SAT, how colleges are responding to those changes, and what strategies students should consider when preparing for either the SAT or ACT. Links: Academy Custom Test Prep:  https://academycustomtestprep.com/ Show Notes: (01:45)  What are the Big Changes to SAT in 2024 (04:49)  How will the SAT be different? (06:58)  Some Key Differences Between the SAT and ACT (07:34)  What the new SAT Focuses on with Reading and Grammar (09:52)  The Mysterious Logic Behind Taking the SAT Online (12:08)  The Biggest Change to Taking the SAT (12:54)  Cheating: Varsity Blues Scandal Explained (14:10)  All Scores are Not Created Equal (14:33)  Adaptive Tests:  Are They Equal? (17:08)  Will Colleges Know if You Got a Hard or Easy Test? (18:15)  Will the new SAT be of Any Value? (18:39)  The Response from ACT (19:55)  Do Colleges Prefer SAT over the ACT? (21:37)  Should Students Go with the ACT? (22:43)  A Simple Strategy Students Can Use to Prepare for the SAT (24:40)  How Colleges Are Responding to the SAT Changes (26:33)  Tutoring versus Self-Prep:  What works better? Susan Stone: Kristina, is this the first time we're recording a podcast and we're not together?  Kristina Supler: It is and it feels weird. I feel so alone.  Susan Stone: I was gonna say, I feel so disconnected from you. This is so weird everyone. You know that we're always attached at the hip, but I'm in New York and I.  Kristina Supler: I'm in our studio in Cleveland, Ohio, and, we're gonna do this with technology today, and I think we're gonna be talking about technology a lot today. Susan, what are we talking about today?  Susan Stone: Oh my gosh. We're gonna talk about the changes to the SAT because there's a lot happening and I'm gonna also wanna delve into, is the ACT gonna do the same thing, it's. The time of year where everybody's trying to get their last scores in before college applications go out. So good time for this talk. And, with that, why don't you introduce our guest?  Kristina Supler: Sure. We are joined today by Mark Coffin. Mark's the proud owner of Academy Custom Test Prep. ACT P helps students with the ACT , SAT, P-SAT and GRE tests, as well as common app essays and other college admissions essays. So Mark, thanks for joining us today.  Susan Stone: Happy to be here.  So Mark, big changes are coming to the SAT in 2024. Yeah. Complete. Describe the dun da. So can you describe the changes?  Mark Coffin: Sure. It's a complete revamp. The, college board who, runs both the P-SAT and SAT testing, they make up the tests and score 'em and all that. They made major changes to the SAT in 2016. So this isn't a long time for them to have had this new test. They made it then much closer to the ACT. Now effective with the P-SAT. This fall they're given traditionally in the high schools to juniors, sophomores, and juniors in October of each year. So this fall, both sophomores and juniors will take the new version of the P-SAT, which will be very much like the new version of the SAT. The first new SAT will be in March of 24. So current juniors who pretty much have already taken some of these tests, have taken the old s a, the current SAT. The new one will be for current sophomores and younger kids starting next March. Now a current sophomore could in fact take SAT tests this fall. There are, four testing dates. And take the current version on paper. But starting with March, it's going to be a very different format, for a number of reasons. Number one, the test is gonna be completely online. So there'll be no printed tests. Students will take it at testing centers, not at home, designated as they do now, but they can use their own computers or they, a computer will be provided when they go in and get ready for the test and start, their computer will basically be frozen. So they can't use it for research or texting or anything else they might want. And they download through a link, the new SAT test. And so they will have their own test on their machine or on a provided machine that's online and everything must be done online. The test will be shorter. It's currently a little over three hours. It's gonna be two hours. They're shortening it by combining some of the sections and reduce, just simply reducing the number of questions. The current SAT has a reading section. And a writing or grammar section. And those will now be, those are now separate sections. You finish one and then go on when the time's up to the next one. And then it current one has two math sections. One without a calculator. You can't use a calculator. And then one with a calculator. And again, you do the non calculator. You finish when the time's up. You go on to the next one.  Susan Stone: Mark. I just wanna interrupt, how did they know whether you have a calculator or a non calculator? Do the proctors manage that? Yeah, the proctors.  Mark Coffin: The proctors are walking around and they see you with a calculator. you're kicked out. so  Kristina Supler: it sounds like it's almost, it's a really different test.  Mark Coffin: It's different in a lot of other ways too. One hugely important way, which I'll get to after I've covered the more, the simpler questions. So the current two sections that are reading and grammar, they call it writing and language, are gonna be combined into one section so you don't finish big. That's a big, that's a big change. That's a big change. In the, reading part, in the current test, you generally have around 11 paragraphs to read, eight to 11, and then you answer 10 or 11 questions about each paragraph. So you have to be not only a perceptive reader, but a pretty quick reader because I'll give you a lot of time. The current, the new test will reduce this, I think, to four passages for the reading with one question and just be a paragraph with only one question per paragraph. The, reasoning is that students will have more time to absorb the material and answer one sort of more broader question about the point of the paragraph so they have more time to ponder it in effect.  Susan Stone: Mark,  Kristina Supler: is that easier?  Yeah, it sounds like they're in some ways watering the test down. Am I wrong?  Mark Coffin: The questions are not easy. I don't think it's easier. It's easier in the time sense. You're not hurried to read a paragraph and answer 10 or 11 questions. Because you have to have pretty good recall to read a paragraph and then immediately go to the questions and remember 11 different answers. Now it'll be one answer. And I've taken a practice test. Khan Academy, which many people are familiar with, is Sure. An online practicing entity for basically the SAT. They now have a couple of these, new format practice tests. And I've taken one, the question's not, I'm not a junior in high school, so I may be somewhat better at taking these tests than some kids, but,it's a fairly difficult question, I thought for a junior. Susan Stone: Okay. So sorry to, they're taking  Kristina Supler: the time management pressure out of it, but the substance of the questions is still weighty.  Mark Coffin: Yes, I think so. The. Yeah, they're trying to give kids more time. The SAT compared to the ACT has never been a time crunch. The way the ACT is. The ACT is much more direct, and so there are many more questions in the same three hour period. For example, the math section in the ACT is 60 questions in 60 minutes. you gotta move. SAT was never that time crunch. But they're dropping it from three hours to two dramatically reducing the number of questions. The whole idea is to make it, an easier test, frankly.  Susan Stone: So let's go back. What are the other changes, cuz I wanna make sure we cover 'em all.  Mark Coffin: I told you they combined the two reading and grammar. Grammar will have much more emphasis on vocabulary. The SAT before they changed it in 2016, was much more of a vocabulary test than the then new SAT. They reduced the, you really had to study vocabulary if you took an SAT in 2005. Kristina Supler: so are we back to that? Are we back to studying vocabulary?  Mark Coffin: I think so, somewhat. The but they'll, there'll be more emphasis on vocabulary, not so much, you don't have to define words, but they will have a blank in a sentence and ask you which word best fills in that blank. So you don't have to know the definition, but you have to know pretty much the context of words, how they're used. And in some words will be absurd. You just wouldn't use 'em. It might be farmer, where the right word is horse. I'm using simplistic examples, but you would never put farmer in the, in that blank. So some of them will be obvious, but some won't be. It'll be difficult. So anyway, those are two of the changes. The, making the math all, maybe I didn't get to that. The math is now gonna be all with a calculator, fewer questions than the two previous sections. But you can use a calculator anywhere. And you don't bring a calculator. The calculator is on the screen. One of the big changes with this test going online is that you have to be adept at taking the test online. With a paper test going forwards and back, skipping a problem, but coming back to it later because you circled it on your paper. Those things are second nature to kids now. I'm much older than a junior in high school. I think many of these kids are much more adept at online testing than I am.  Kristina Supler: There's all sorts of online testing now, for sure. Yeah, I Susan Stone: know, but I would struggle because I remember that taking the SAT and seeing something that was challenging, saying, okay, I'm gonna come back, and I would just jot where to go back. But now you've got a manage and negotiate everything on the screen.  Mark Coffin: Well, you can have to help with that. You can have scratch paper, obviously you can't bring anything other than blank paper. They'll provide scratch paper. So you can write down section one. I wanna come back to number 11 or something. But you still gotta be able to do it on the screen. Now there are arrows. Kids know how to do that. But it's another step I think thatIt just makes it, for me, it makes it much more challenging to take this test online. So essentially those are the format is largely the same. The material tested largely the same. Just many fewer questions. Their thinking is that by making it shorter and online, I don't know how they come up with this logic, but that it will appeal to many more kids. That it'll be fairer. I don't know what makes this fairer. That's what they put in their press releases, that they think more kids will take it. I think that may be true, but not because they've improved the test. I think kids will be, a p will be attracted by the two hours instead of three. These tests are no fault.  Susan Stone: for sure.  Kristina Supler: So were these, what motivated, or caused SAT to make these sweeping changes?  Mark Coffin: There's no question that these tests, ACT or SAT are culturally biased. If you come from a good school system, a nuclear family, maybe get prep work, tutoring, you have a huge advantage over a student that doesn't have those things. So that makes the score. The score is it's almost a. It's hard for an inner city kid, for example, to score, and many do nonetheless, but they have a bigger hurdle to get the kind of scores that a kid's kid from a top flight, public or private school can get.  Kristina Supler: So in other words, if you have resources, you can game the test. Mark Coffin: I tell people only partly inject ingest that academy's job is to be a legal cheater. Our job is to train these kids interesting, to improve the on the test. And think of this as a move on an athletic field. Think of prepping as a move on an athletic field or learning in an instrument or lines in a play. If you do the test over and over in practice, you're just simply gonna get better.  Susan Stone: Yeah, but Mark, my understanding of the TE biggest test change is that students will get different tests cuz the computer will spit out different questions based on how you do.  Kristina Supler: Is that true? I'm gonna track you, Susan? Is that what you're getting at?  Mark Coffin: There's two parts to that answer, and it's the biggest change. The first part is everyone in the room will have a different test. Forget the adaptive nature I'll get to next. Every, the person sitting next to you will have a different test than yours. I believe. That's simply a plain attempt to stop cheating. You can't look at the person next to you and see what they're answering. Not only is it online, but they have a different test. They're gonna have, 17 is gonna be a different question for John than Mary.  Susan Stone: so you can't use AI to help you with the test. Kristina Supler: No. This was one thing I was wondering as well, aside from ai, is this some sort of response to the varsity blues, matter and all the cheating that happened just a couple years ago?  Mark Coffin: That was pretty genius, frankly, what that guy did it, it hinged on you moving your test center to one of his. And to do that was very simple. He said, I've got a wedding that day in Texas and can I take the test there? Yeah, sure. And you take the test to his test center and he either, gave you the answers or he had someone else take the test.  Susan Stone: Just sit there. Yeah. That wouldn't have prevented varsity blue because he actually I agree had someone take the test for you. But you won't be able to really move test centers, correct?  Mark Coffin: No. I don't know that. You go, you still go to a test center, so I guess that same argument still applies. But obviously they're paying much more attention. That was a, he called it a side door. And of course the bad part of that was that he had athletic coaches, letting a guy who lives in a desert get in on the crew team kind of thing. Susan Stone: But the question is, now that everybody has a different test, how do you compare? How can a school say, look at Johnny Smith versus Johnny Jones. And if they both have a 1300, how do you compare? Cuz they're two different tests,  Kristina Supler: right? Not all 13 hundreds are created equal with an adaptive test, right? Mark Coffin: Yeah, that's correct. And of course some kids are better at certain phraseology, better re even though you end up with the same score, you might do well on certain questions that the other guy didn't do well on. But it comes out to the same score because vice versa. And other questions. The yeah, there is no comparative value that I can see. and I haven't even gotten to the big change. Susan Stone: Okay. give us the big change. Yeah. wait,  Mark Coffin: take us there. I'll one more comment though, on the sitting next to people with different tests. The college board maintains that the test, no matter being different, they're equivalent. Well, that's a value judgment. And I don't know how you That's a great comment. How you can really ascertain that or say it with a straight face. If it's a different test, by definition, it's not compar comparable. So you're right. So that's a fairly big change right there. But here's the killer. The tests are now gonna be adaptive, meaning I, I mentioned, I think I mentioned before, that when you do the verbal part, the reading and the grammar. They're gonna be two modules. And the same thing with math. Two modules. So when you finish the first one, say the, reading in, in grammar, the program is gonna analyze how you did and either give you harder questions for the second module or easier ones. So if you screw up early on, even if you're brilliant, and then just half asleep and start off slowly, you're gonna get easier questions. Same thing in the math. After the first module, they're gonna adjust the following questions. That also will adjust the score you can get the maximum score is gonna stay still. 1600, 800, 800 on the two sections. Which is pretty hard to get by the way. But the maximum score now will be essentially 1200. So if you get in both sections, the easier Second module, your score will be capped in each section at 600, so two would be 1200. Even if you answer the second module, both the verbal and the math perfectly, your score can't go over 1200, or maybe it's 1225. It's not specific, but it's low 12 hundreds. And it's nowhere near 1600. Now if you, obviously, if you do well in the sections, you get the harder questions and your maximum score could be the 1600. But this means, again, Everyone is taking a different test that when you start changing the second module from the first module. And by the way, the first module is already different, and now you're gonna change the second one. What possible value do two scores have when be like a batter's batting average when they're in a different ballpark against a different pitch. It's not the same ballgame.  Susan Stone: Mark, will colleges have any way of knowing that? Let's say Kristina and I both took it. I got an easy version. She got a hard,  Mark Coffin: I. Not in anything I've read. I don't believe so. It's a very good question. But I don't think colleges will know. college board has been quiet on that and colleges have been crickets on this. They haven't said anything basically about this new test. Part of that is because it's not in their ball ballpark yet. The kids that are gonna be taking this test, are gonna be next year's juniors. They don't apply until the fall of senior year. So we're two years away from colleges even having to think about these scores. D do they matter or not?  Kristina Supler: Well, it's interesting to think about the change, really significant changes in the SAT coupled with the affirmative action ruling from the Supreme Court. You know how that the trickle down effect of both those changes on the college admissions landscape. It's it's gonna be really significant.  Mark Coffin: Well, certainly certain minorities are gonna have a harder time. They're not getting favoritism theoretically on paper. And is that good or bad? We could argue the point. But, and they're, both sides have plenty of value in the argument. But yeah, it. In my mind, this new SAT will be of no value whatsoever to colleges. Because its only value is comparative. And that's a limited value. But if you take the comparison value away, what, what's left? They took, they got a score.  Susan Stone: So what is ACT gonna do? Are they gonna sit back and hold the course? And what that test is?  Mark Coffin: So far, the ACT has said they are not doing anything except they're investigating, going online with their test. And they, the SAT is has already been online abroad. If you took it, if you're a student taking it abroad and want to apply to a US college, which many do, that is currently the new version of the SAT and it's online. The ACT, all they've said is they're looking into going online, away from paper tests.  Now, here's problem for a company like mine. There are no paper tests anymore. The college board currently puts out a big blue book, has eight practice tests. And kids that's how we give kids homework and that's how they improve. They do the tests,  Kristina Supler: ah, materials for practicing, and yeah, so on and so forth.  Mark Coffin: There are no materials now. I don't have any way of having a tutor sit with a student and go over the questions and answers. It's just, it's not on paper. It's not there. You can't do women computers.  Kristina Supler: Mark, I'm wondering, irrespective of the changes to SAT, let's set that aside for a moment. As things currently stand, in your opinion, do colleges and universities prefer the SAT over the ACT or vice versa?  Mark Coffin: No, they did 20 years ago, 15 years ago. They clearly did. The East Coast was an SAT area. Largely they preferred the SAT. So if you were uva, Harvard, any, any East Coast team you wanted an SAT. Same thing with the West Coast. They wanted SAT. Basically the Midwest has always been the ACT home. But that all changed, I don't know, 2 20 12 kind of thing. All colleges then and now say that they don't have a preference. And of course, as many colleges have gone test, some are test blind. If you turn in a test, they won't even consider it. But many are test optional. So many kids have opted out, would've opted out of even taken the test. Cuz it's no fun. If you really want to do well, you pretty much have to prep. And that's expensive and time consuming. And these kids are busy. Junior year is a really busy year for a high school kid. So many of them have opted to go test fun. And of course any student who forget, just not wanting to bother. any student who knows they're a weak test taker or maybe takes the test one time and is very disappointed, of course they're not turning that score in and they're not gonna take it again. So test optional is still, it helps if a school's test optional, you can turn in a good score. It helps in two ways. It's a tie breaker for a student that looks like you on paper without a score. And it's also a help for marade. Almost all colleges consider if they get a score, it's a factor in. And colleges, as are really expensive. So getting merit aid is a big plus. But, you're only turning in a good score. So you can see what that does to the average scores that colleges now.  Susan Stone: The average score is now higher. I'm gonna have two follow up questions based on what Kristina said. One is, now with the change of the SAT, would you recommend students just stick with the ACT? Because it'll give Yeah. Pardon?  Mark Coffin: Completely. Partly because I can't, and I'm on it. I've already started talking to parents whose kids are, rising juniors. We're not tutoring the SAT I can't do it. And I also don't think you should take it. If you're going to take the test, a test, take one that matters. Why take a test that's meaningless?  Susan Stone: And then my follow up is something that you said if it's gonna be online and it's difficult for you to get practice materials, are you just gonna tutor with like, general testing strategy. Mark Coffin: Well, we're doing that with some kids. We have our, or we're set up to do that with some rising juniors who know they are not taking a paper test in the fall. They're taking the first in March, the first,new format. And the mom said to me, since the material's largely the same, I understand the timing and all those things are different. But can you just tutor her for the current SAT using paper tests? She'll be better, won't she? At the real, the new SAT the answer. That's a great question. Of course she will be. And we are doing that with some kids. And I've suggested that to some moms. But,But it's not, it's still not prepping him for the exact same test. So that as a businessman, that makes me a little uncomfortable taking your money, but I'm preparing you for something you're not gonna do.  Susan Stone: So what are you going do? How are you going?  Mark Coffin: Just ACT. And so unless something changes now, we're still a ways away from next March. If there are sufficient numbers of online practice tests and they become accessible somehow. I'm not a computer geek, so I don't know what that means, but if there's some way we can use them sitting down one-on-one with a kid, yeah, of course we'll do that. Except again, I think it's hard for me to justify to a mother. Why do, why are you gonna take the SAT? Why's your student taking the SAT? It's a pointless test now. And I think colleges will come to that conclusion. Now, if you get a 1500. Whether it's a different test or not, of course that's an indicator. You're a pretty, pretty good student, at least at this type of work. Does it compare to another 1500 or, I don't think so. But a but a strong score is a strong score. I think they're dumbing down the test, and I think it'll be easier to get a pretty good score if you take it. but  Kristina Supler: Mark, how would you respond to someone who, a listener out there who might just say,geez, this guy's in the test prep business. And, it's sour grapes for the SAT because now you've in, you've said you can't tutor on the SAT. it's just your business interests are driving your opinion of the test changes. How would you respond to that?  Mark Coffin: I think the colleges are gonna have the same business interest. And they're gonna be making the same evaluation I am. How valuable is this number now? As I said before, they haven't gotten there yet. They don't have to. It's not even on their radar. Another interesting wrinkle in this is, the state of Ohio currently requires as a diploma requirement, graduation requirement that all public and parochial, not private schools, but public and parochial, give their junior class either an SAT or an ACT For free. For free. For free. Yes. Yes. And the school picks the date. And they pick which test. And some schools pick ACT, like Solen, west Joa, but many schools pick SAT like Orange and Kenston and Chagrin Falls. The SAT, they're gonna be able to give, and they typically do this in the spring. So the SAT they're gonna have available to them is gonna be the new format. Are they gonna give that SAT as a graduation requirement or are they gonna go to ACT? I would think they'd go ACT. But I don't know. I've asked a couple of college guidance people and they say it's not on our radar yet. That's so far ahead. So yeah.  Susan Stone: That's really interesting. I would say that, Look, you can't deny, especially with the test, optional, that there's a positive inference by submitting a score. Correct. And I don't know that's gonna change. So it is still important and studying practice makes perfect with this test. And there are some good free resources available. We can't deny that. But it Mark, after having three kids go through it, No matter what the free resource is, it helps to have a human being sit with you and explain things, doesn't it? Kristina Supler: Not quite the same as working with the tutor.  Mark Coffin: Yeah, the one-on-one is very different than doing it yourself. Partly cuz when you miss a question, it might be cuz you don't understand how to do it. Not just a casual error. Like I forgot to bring a minus sign down. The other thing is motivation. None of humans are very good at doing things we don't particularly enjoy and prepping on your own. Very true is difficult, to sit there. And plus, when you prep, you're not taking a three hour test, eight o'clock on a Saturday morning. You take a, you do a math test for practice and you get up in the middle of it and go get a soda or something. And it's just very different on your own even if you do it. And one of the reasons that my business is attractive to parents is it's a way of, in effect, forcing their kids to do it. It's like a doctor's appointment. You gotta get, go meet with this person, do the homework, and just take this seriously. It's costing me a lot of money. Yep. And doing it on your own just isn't the same motivation. Very few kids are successful at doing it on their own. Some are, they're some kids that are driven for this kind of thing. But I think the answer to your earlier question is this self-serving course. It is. it's my business, and I want it to work as well as possible. The good news is tutoring works. And it's very rewarding, especially for my tutors. When you raise a kid's score, 250 points on the SAT. You take 'em from 1150 to a 1500 or something. it's, it, that's very big job. Big job. Yeah. and it happens. it sounds incredible. But it's a function of the kids putting in the effort. And again, they're the same tests every time, different material, but they get used to the material. It brings back stuff like the math they may have had two years earlier and have basically largely forgotten since ninth grade. Kristina Supler: There's so much to consider now for families, planning for the future with the college process. But this has really been a wonderful discussion that's full of chock full of good information for parents to be aware of as they, plan for the future and the college process with their children. Susan Stone: And again, another difficult decision, SAT V versus ACT or whether you should take it at all. Lots to think about. You gotta know your kid. Absolutely.  Mark Coffin: Another point, the test may become more available to companies like mine because there are huge national tutoring companies like Princeton Review, Kaplan. They don't wanna stop tutoring the the SAT. Some of them are making their own tests trying to divine how are we, how's this test gonna look? That's, that doesn't work very well. but they, they've got a lot of incentive to get something out there that little companies like me can use and students can use. Kristina Supler: What's the saying? Necessity is the mother of invention. So there you go.  Susan Stone: That's a good one. Supler. That's a good one. Mark, it's been such a pleasure.  Kristina Supler: Feel free to reach out to Mark Coffin at Academy Custom Test Prep. Thanks for joining us, Mark. Thanks.  Mark Coffin: My pleasure. Thanks. Have a good day. Bye-Bye. 

Title: In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Dr. Lauren Streicher, a Clinical Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology at Northwestern University's medical school, and the founder and medical director of the Northwestern Medicine Center for Menopause and the Northwestern Medicine Center for  Sexual Health.  In this episode, they talk about if current contraceptive methods really prevent STIs, current edge products to make "safe sex" a reality, and misconceptions around current contraceptives. Show Notes: (02:20)  Getting Real about Failure Rates with Contraception (04:20)  Why Failures Rates are So High (06:14)  Why Condoms Don't Prevent STI's (07:28)  HPV Vaccine: Should College Students Get It? (08:44)  Protection During Oral Sex (09:36)  Introducing a New, Superior Woman-Controlled Contraception (13:08)  What Makes the New LUWI Superior (14:42)  Does the LUWI have Lubrication? (15:45) FDA Testing of the New LUWI (17:32)  Misconceptions Around Emergency Contraception (19:11)  Why the “Morning After” Pill Works for 5 Days (20:26)  Reproductive Rights and IUDs (21:53)  Why “The Pill” Can Fail (25:17)  Why the LUWI Will Be on College Campuses First (27:40)  Myth or Fact: Do You Gain Weight on “The Pill” (28:32)  Contraception and the Impact on Dating Apps Pull Quotes: Susan Stone: It has been approximately one year since the Dobbs opinion, and I'm still in shock. Are you?  Kristina Supler: I, it was interesting over the weekend reading news stories and it's like, wow, a year has passed and it it's wild, wild.  Susan Stone: And it's changing the election. It's changing culture. We are really reverting back and, so the topic today is more important than ever. We're gonna talk about contraception post Dobbs. And we're gonna hopefully unpack myths and make sure students know what they need to do to be safe out there. You know, last week we had a guest and we were talking about the health issues of transgender. We actually learned a new word larc. Remember that?  Kristina Supler: I do. And I'm. Certain that our guest today has more to say.  Susan Stone: I think she knows a larc is not a bird. It's a long acting reversible contraception. But today we have a repeat guest that we love to see.  Kristina Supler: Yes, today we are really happy to be joined again by Dr. Lauren Streicher. Welcome, Dr. Streicher. Welcome back. I should say welcome back.  Dr. Lauren Streicher is a clinical professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology at Northwestern University's Medical School. And she's the founder of Northwestern Medicine Center for Menopause and the Northwestern Medicine Center for Sexual Medicine. Dr. Streicher's, a medical correspondent for top rated news programs in Chicago and has been a guest on other national shows like the Oprah Winfrey Show, C N N, C B S. 2020 just to name a few. Dr. Streicher's also a bestselling author. She's written several books and she hosts the popular podcast called Dr. Streicher's Inside Information Podcast, Menopause, Midlife, and More. Welcome, Dr. Streicher. Dr. Lauren Streicher: it's a pleasure to be back.  Susan Stone: Anything new? What's different, on the horizon coming up? Birth control. Give us the landscape.  Dr. Lauren Streicher: Yeah. first, let me tell you that there, there are always new things and I'm gonna tell you about some very exciting new things. But I'm glad you started off with talking about larcs, L A R C, as you said, not l a r k, which is the bird. And this is actually not a new term. For us, new term for you, but we've been talking about long acting reversible contraception for a long time. And the reason is, is that we are in an era right now, which it is more important than ever to have reliable contraception. Because when we talk about contraception, we not only look at user, preference, but we look at failure rates. And we know that something that is not going to be controlled on a case by case basis is what's going to have the best rates of success.  So when we look at a long acting reversible contraception, that is something that is not, as we say, user dependent. These are contraceptions that we set and forget, and as we go through the list of options for college students to use, that is certainly high on the list when it comes to the most reliable. But before we get to the specific contraceptions, I just wanna kinda set the stage for why this is such an important conversation. Because please, absolutely, Dobbs, no question, but even before the Dobbs decision, when it became potentially life-threatening, you know, now it's, it's not just inconvenient or scary, it's, Life threatened to become pregnant. But beyond that, we know that women in college are very high risk for not only getting pregnant, but for getting a sexually transmitted infection. We're talking one in four women will contract a sexually transmitted infection. We know that most college women, about at least 70% are sexually active. And when I'm talking sexually active, I am talking penile vaginal intercourse. Because sexually active of course you mean many things. A lot of different things. But if we're talking about just the ability to get pregnant, we're looking at about 70% most people.  Susan Stone: Is that just because you're more fertile in your twenties?  Dr. Lauren Streicher: It's a combination of increased fertility. And it's a combination of complacency of not using contraception on a consistent basis or using it correctly. And that's one of the things that is really the theme of today, is I think many college women are very much aware of what's available to them. But just because they're using a contraception does not mean that they use it correctly. And in fact, if you look at statistics for unplanned pregnancies, roughly 50% of pregnancies are unplanned. And according to the Guttmacher Institute, 50% of those use some form of contraception in the month before. Now think about that. That's really wild. You know, so many people think that if someone gets pregnant it's because they were just complacent or they were lazy, or they, the worst is when people actually think that some people use abortion for contraception, which is simply not true. 50% of unplanned pregnancies are people who did use some form of contraception, but it failed. And some methods are more likely to fail than others.  And at the top of the list, quite frankly, are male condoms. I'm currently doing a study with the Kinsey Institute that I will tell you about with male condoms. And so I've been reading a lot about it and looking at these studies. And I was floored at the number of couples that even if they say, yeah, we use a condom, they don't use them properly and they have incomplete use of condom, meaning they're not using a condom from the start to the finish of sex. And the  Susan Stone: Question though, in terms of preventing sexually transmitted infections, Am I correct that the condom,  Kristina Supler: the condom was the best way  Susan Stone: or the only way? How else can you prevent an infection?  Dr. Lauren Streicher: Okay, so let's switch gears for a little bit and we're gonna switch from contraception to protection of STIs. So when we talk about STIs, the most common STI out there is human papillomavirus, right? Where women get human papillomavirus on the vulva. Do condoms protect their vulva? They do not. So when we look at condoms as protecting against STIs, it is one of the best methods that we have out there. But it is not the only method and it is not as protective as it needs to be.  Because it is going to protect against cervical, sexually transmitted infections. Gonorrhea, chlamydia. Things such as that. But it will not protect against herpes. It will not protect against H P V, and that's even if the condom is used properly. These studies, which completely, you know, just I was like blown away by is the number of men who do not use a condom from start to finish because of condom associated erection problems. Something we don't think about in young men, but certainly exists. They talk about,  Susan Stone: We've been hearing about it in a lot of our cases. Yeah. But I just want you to back up a little bit. sure. I know with the H P V, we now have a vaccine. Yes. We don't have a vaccine that I'm aware of for herpes. Correct. So what's, what's a gal to do?  Dr. Lauren Streicher: Okay. Well, first of all, let's circle back to the vaccine for a minute. I wish I could say that 100% of college age men and women have been vaccinated against hpv, but they have not. Some of them are also folks that were vaccinated earlier on so that they got the quadrivalent vaccine, meaning that it only protects against four subtypes of H P V as opposed to the newer vaccine, which prevents against nine subtypes. So even people that were vaccinated, depending on when they were vaccinated, may not have complete protection. But there's an awful lot of people that aren't protected. And quite frankly, a lot of times it's the guys that aren't protected. But to your point, herpes.  There is no vaccine and herpes is has nothing to do with intercourse. In many cases it's about oral sex. There's this idea that type one herpes is on the mouth and type two herpes is on the genitals. And we know that's not the case. You can have both type one and type two on the mouth or the genitals because of transference during oral sex. So how do you protect yourself? Let's, I mean, I'm sure all the parents are sitting out there and people are saying, okay, we'll get to it already. Yikes. how could you protect yourself, understand it, give us answers, short of stepping in a hefty bag or locking yourself in your dorm room and becoming abstinent, which is not gonna happen. So number one. There is a new product called Laurels, r o l a l S. Are you familiar with this one? We are, yes. Yeah. Laurels is a disposable latex panty, which is worn by a woman, and the purpose of laurels is to protect her during oral sex. So if a guy or a woman is giving her oral sex and that person has herpes on their mouth or gonorrhea on their mouth as you can. And, that means that this will protect her. It's latex. And this is a disposable panty. It's a one use panty that is, does not decrease sensation. In fact, some people think it increases sensation. I actually have a whole podcast on it in my, Protecting Yourself Podcast. And it's really an interesting new product. And the idea being that. It also can be for anal play, not just for vaginal play, but it's not for penetration. It's not for penetration. What's new out there for penetration is there is a product which is about to get f d a cleared. I'm working with this company, it's very exciting, and it's called LUWI, as in L U W I, as in let us wear it.  And what LUWI is. Is this is a woman controlled, very important, a woman controlled contraception for both pregnancy protection and S T I protection. And this is a polyurethane single use internal liner. So it's an internal sheath that protects the vagina, but it also protects the vulva. And this is inserted by the woman up to eight hours in advance. And she's not aware of it. The men are not aware of it. And the idea is it, not only is it not going to decrease from her pleasure, but it is going to protect from STIs both in the vagina and the vulva. And what's interesting, and I mentioned, I'm doing a study with the Kinsey Institute right now. The study that we're doing is specifically to identify couples that the man either doesn't use a condom. Or does it use it from start to finish in complete use? Because he says that it impacts on his sensation, it impacts on his ability to orgasm. He can't maintain his erection. He has discomfort with the condom. There's a whole long list of excuses, right?  So what we wanna see is with use of a woman controlled contraception with LUWI, are we gonna cross all of those things off the guy's list? What's really interesting is, I don't know if you're familiar, with A C H A, the the American College Health Association. Are you familiar with this group? No. No. I just came from their conference. This is basically a group of all of the people that run student healthcare. All over the country. So there are 700 different colleges that participate in A C H A. They have a conference every year. The American College Health Association Conference, it took place three weeks ago in Boston. I was there, and the reason that I was there is because we were introducing LUWI to all of these college, health student, centers. And I gotta tell you, The excitement was over the top.  Susan Stone: No pun intended, right?  Dr. Lauren Streicher: Yeah, no, really, because they are what they do the, colleges buy condoms, you're aware of that, that they buy condoms? Yes.  Susan Stone: Yes. And they, but are they easy to use and Yes. Can they get stuck in the  Kristina Supler: vagina? I was wondering, does it get stuck? Does that float around?  Susan Stone: Can it cause toxic shock?  Dr. Lauren Streicher: No, not at all. So if this wasn't a podcast, I would show it to you because I happen to have one right here with my purple sparkle vulva that we were using. hold it up and we'll describe it to our 10 seconds to step away and get my purple vulva. I  Susan Stone: gotta see it. Get your purple vulva and listeners out there. We will describe the LUWI LUWI to you. I speaking. LUWI.  Kristina Supler: Oh,  LUWI. LUWI. Ok. Here we  Susan Stone: go. That's right. Carrying the  Dr. Lauren Streicher: right. Here we go. Here is my purple vulva. All right. So you can see in the purple vulva. Here's the vaginal opening. Here's the clitoris just to orient you. Okay. And we made the vagina clear. So that you can see what happens inside. Okay, so this is LUWI. It looks just like a condom, a male condom, except it  Susan Stone: looks like a condom. Exactly like a condom. So listeners out there, it actually looks like a condom. Yeah.  Dr. Lauren Streicher: What the difference is it's made out of polyurethane. And so what that means is it's much softer. It's much thinner. It doesn't decrease sensation. There's no odor. It doesn't have that funky latex odor. It's completely colorless. There's no color to it, and there's this very kind of soft, flexible ring. So basically the way that it works is a woman just takes it and she just pushes this inside her vagina. super like a tampon. Not even. Yeah. But it doesn't even have to go up as far, you just, like with her fingers, she just pushes it in and then she takes this ring and she puts it right over her vulva. And then when the penis goes in, it pushes it in for her, gets it in all the way. So then, but this is, it's cool. It is, as you can see, it's over the vulva. And if you, if someone touches it when it's thin, you can't. It doesn't decrease sensation at all. But the beauty is, is a lot of women position this ring right over this clitoris. You know where I'm going here. So what this means is that it's going to ensure that during intercourse that the woman's not just gonna have less pleasure, she will potentially have more pleasure. Studies also show that she'll have more pleasure cuz she won't be as worried. if someone isn't worried about getting an STI, or getting pregnant, they have more pleasure. So this act, so this covers the vulva, and what this means is that if the guy has herpes or H P V, her vulva is protected. This can also be used for anal intercourse. Male to male, female to male. Same kind of protection instead of pushing.  Susan Stone: What about lubrication? Does it block the lubrication?  Dr. Lauren Streicher: It comes with a lubrication. Okay. So the lubricant is inside, and I mean around the side of outside of it. This one's on lubricated for demo purposes. Otherwise, my purple Volvo gets all greasy. And the recommendation is to use a lu with a lubricant just because it's gonna be easier. And in fact, the packaging will come with a lubricant. So when we went to this meeting and there was a tremendous amount of excitement because the healthcare services know more than anybody that there's all these STIs and undesired pregnancies. And that this is really going to be a huge solution. They were all signing up to, to buy them for, to distribute on campuses. So with the condom fairy, if the college, lots of college campuses have condom ferries and all kinds of things that they go around and they're gonna be distributing these. And it's not gonna be for this school year because the F D a clearance is just coming through and they're just being manufactured. But we are looking at the 2024, 25 school year. So that's the newest thing that's coming out. That's very exciting. And the thing that's exciting,  Susan Stone: women have to worry about leakage when you pull out? Dr. Lauren Streicher: No. So this is part of the FDA clearance, process. It's just like with the latex condom, they test it to make sure that sperm can't get through, that the STIs can't get through. Sure, like a male condom, if somebody pulls it off or doesn't use it, or doesn't use it from the beginning, of course there's always gonna be a chance of there being a problem. But if it's properly used, you don't have that problem and it's very, very easy to use. You know, there's been, it's been tested. We've looked at focus groups. It's launching, interestingly, it's for any age woman. But it's being launched on college campuses for a variety of reasons. And one of it is because they have one of the greatest unmet needs when it comes to protection. And again, people are not aware. You are. But the general population is not aware of incomplete condom use. And improper condom use on the part of men. And even though a lot of these women do have, as we talked about, very reliable, long acting, reversible contraception, that's not user dependent. That's not gonna protect them against an STI. I love IUDs. I think every single woman should have one 99% protection against pregnancy. But that is not gonna protect her against a sexually transmitted infection.  Susan Stone: Wow.  Kristina Supler: Dr. Streicher bringing us the latest cutting edge developments and contraception. When there's discussion and debate between birth control oh and abortion, and obviously again it in the wake of Dobbs, it's really important that listeners and, and everyone out there is aware of the distinction between the two.  Because there's often a lot of conflation. And so can you clearly explain for our listeners whether an I U D or an emerge or emergency contraception plan B, do they cause abortion? What is the difference between?  Dr. Lauren Streicher: And I'm glad we're discussing it because there is a great deal of misconception and has been from the get go. And one of the reasons historically is that emergency contraception, the first morning after pill, came out about the same time as we started having medical abortions. So it was very confusing and they are very different things. And to put it very simply, there's a difference between terminating in a established pregnancy, that's when abortion is, versus preventing pregnancy. So if you look at emergency contraception, that is basically preventing pregnancy from occurring. It is not an abortion.  And it's something that we have been using for decades, even before they had an FDA approved option available. Because it was something that gynecologists did off label, meaning we would use a combination of standard birth control pills given within a short time after unprotected sex, particularly in emergency rooms when someone would come in as a victim of rape and you don't want them to get pregnant, of course. So we would give them our version of emergency contraception. And so fast forward now, here we are. that we have much more, reliable and FDA approved emergency contraception. So we have emergency contraception pills, which we don't call them morning after pills anymore, because there's this idea that if you don't take it the morning after that, it's not gonna work. And we know that's not the case. The sooner you take it, the better. Ideally within 72 hours. But you do have up to five days to, to use emergency contraception.  Susan Stone: We've had cases where they. Don't work. So we've heard that they don't work if you're ovulating. Is that true?  Dr. Lauren Streicher: No, it does. It can work because this is the timeframe. When someone ovulates the egg is released from the ovary, it then travels down the fallopian tube. If a sperm meets up with that egg in the fallopian tube, that's actually where the sperm penetrates the egg. And then it makes that trip down the fallopian tubes and then it lands in the uterus. Where if there's a nice cushy bed that's, comfortable in waiting for this potential pregnancy, it's gonna land and it's gonna in bed. But that's why you have, even if you have sex, the moment you're ovulating, you've got this five day window before it's gonna travel down and become an established pregnancy. So again, it is not a pregnancy, a viable pregnancy until it lands in the uterus.  So the same can be said for IUDs. We now know the placement of an intrauterine device. Within five days of unprotected intercourse is going to dramatically decrease the rate of an unintended pregnancy. And then the beauty of the I U D then is you could just leave it there and you're protected going forward. And that's critically important because in this world of jobs, not only is abortion at risk, but so contraception.  Mm-hmm. And I think's very clear about that is that when we're looking at reproductive rights in these states that are passing these insane anti-woman laws, it's not just about their ability to get an abortion. It is about the ability to get contraception. And so my advice to women, who are looking for reliable contraception is quite frankly, almost, basically a hundred percent of women are candidates for an intrauterine device. And the beauty of that is that no one can take away your I U D no matter what laws passed. So if you get placements of an I U D, you're gonna be good for up to eight years, maybe even a little bit longer as far as contraception. Susan Stone: And so how does the plan B fail? Well, it can, it can fail.  Dr. Lauren Streicher: If it's taken too late, it can fail. And the other thing also is that, most of these contraceptive methods are not a hundred percent. Even if you look at a lot of the user dependent methods like birth control pills or the patch or the ring, we know that these are not 100% effective. Because there's theoretical effectiveness, which is very different than typical use failure rates. Typical use failure rates are higher. So for example, if you look at birth control pills and you think, how can birth control pills fail? 7% of the time they do. And one of do you get to  Kristina Supler: take it? Do you go to bed and you  Dr. Lauren Streicher: Exactly. And the other thing also is the most common time to miss a pill. You know when that is during your period? No, it's the beginning of a new pack and Oh. Oh, that's interesting. I didn't know that. Reason why is some insurance companies and some healthcare, student healthcare systems, they're not gonna give you 12 packs. They say you gotta come in every month. Who's busier than a college student? Who has less access to getting to the pharmacy than a college student? So they go off their, pill for their five days or seven days, depending on the pill. It's time to start the new pill. They've got a final. They've got something to coming up. They say, I'm not gonna make it there. So instead of starting their new pill pack on a Sunday, they might start it on Tuesday. And that's the greatest likelihood of having a failures at the beginning. I'm a huge, huge advocate of continuous pill taking. Meaning there is no off days. There's no placebo days. There's no period. Get your pill. Take an active pill every single day. Because not only are you not gonna get a period, which is a wonderful thing for all the obvious reasons, get rid of the cramps, the expense of tampons. The list is very long, of, of advantages to not having a period. But the other advantage that people really don't appreciate is that you're your failure rate's gonna be lower. Because it's with starting that new pack that people ovulate and quite frankly, when you send your student off to college, one of the best things you can do is forget insurance, purchase a couple of extra packs, a pill, send them off with some extra packs. So if they go away for the weekend and they forget it, or it gets flushed down the toilet or whatever, you wanna make sure that that you're gonna have some extra pill packs and that they can take them continuously without worrying about it. And the same is even like with the ring. You know when you look at the new ring and Vera, are you familiar with those two? Yes. And the people may not be familiar with Vera, which is a vaginal ring with estrogen and progestin and it that can be used for up to a year. And the recommendation on the part of the manufacturer and the FDA approval is you remove it one week a month to get your period. And I'm like, are you kidding? Don't remove it for God's sakes. Put it in and leave it there for a year and just don't even think about it. And it's, and that's safe. That's healthy. Absolutely. But they didn't. But for a variety of reasons, the FDA did not, did not okay it for that, and the company didn't try and get it through because, It's really not about medical, it's more about that. it's just it's perfectly safe to take your pill continuously. It's perfectly safe to leave your ring in. If you wanna take it out, you can take it out for a couple of hours, rinse it with cool water, put it back. But every time you take it out is a chance for it to get lost, for it to get forgotten, and for not to be put back in time. So maybe if you wanna take it out and get a light period, don't take it out for the whole week. Take it out for two, three days and put it back. it's a lot of this. It doesn't have to always be done by the book. There's ways to, to use these different methods of contraception so that you will decrease the failure rate based on some of the real life situations that come up. Susan Stone: Kristina, I just thought about the funniest thing preparing for this podcast. Did you watch Seinfeld?  Kristina Supler: I did. Loved it.  Susan Stone: Do you remember? Elaine and saying, is someone sponge worthy? Oh, yes. Do you remember? Yes. No, we're  Dr. Lauren Streicher: enough that we know about sponges, but the college students certainly don't know about sponges. Susan Stone: So do you think now it's gonna be, are you LUWI worthy? Dr. Lauren Streicher: the thing is that,it could be. But the idea is to make this stuff easily attainable and affordable. Absolutely. The reason it became sponge worthy was because they were so hard to get expensive who were hoarding them. But the idea, particularly on college campuses, is you want to be as easy as buying a pack of gum is to have access to reliable contraception. It shouldn't have to be LUWI worthy. It shouldn't have to be condom worthy. It should be. Just in case worthy, I'm gonna, I love that I'm put this in because I don't know what's gonna happen tonight. But in the event that something does happen, I sure don't wanna wake up tomorrow morning and think, oh my God, what did I, you know, what just happened there? And obviously we wish that there weren't situations where people had too much to drink. Where there was non-consensual sex. But let's talk real life. Let's talk what's going on on campuses. And if a woman goes to a party or is out drinking, even if she has no intention of having sex, if she can place something in her vagina that is gonna protect against both STIs and pregnancy. Think of the peace of mind. Think of the anguish that young women go through the morning after when sometimes they're not even sure if something happens.  Susan Stone: But how long can that stay in you? The LUWI?  Dr. Lauren Streicher: Eight hours. You can put it in eight hours in advance.  Susan Stone: Okay. So it's not something that a young woman should keep in her backpack or purse and then run to the bathroom. It should be something put in before  Dr. Lauren Streicher: Yeah, no. She can put it in 10 seconds, but you can do both. Yeah. But you can have it in up to eight hours, But you can absolutely keep it in your backpack. And and everyone should. And it's, I really think it's gonna change the landscape because not only do you get the increased protection, but let's face it, historically, it all comes down to being women controlled. Always has been.  Kristina Supler: You've shared so much information with us today and I think, our listeners have learned a lot, hopefully by listening to this episode.  I want to clear up one piece of information that I hear often and regularly and it's been going around for an eternity. And that is, oh, I don't wanna go on birth control cuz it's gonna make me gain weight. Yeah. Myth or fact.  Dr. Lauren Streicher: Total myth. Total myth. And this isn't my opinion, this is based on literally millions of women over long periods of time. And you know, multiple, multiple studies that the average weight gain at most with a birth control pill is like two pounds, and the majority of them there is none. And the reason women gain weight when they go off to college is, the reasons you knows everything.  Kristina Supler: The unlimited meal plans,  Susan Stone: not alcohol. Alcohol.  Dr. Lauren Streicher: The alcohol is actually a huge factor because I think that the college students forget about, Not only how many calories there are in alcohol, but you kinda lose your willpower when you're sitting there drinking. You're also  Susan Stone: I know that's true at any age. That's my menopause excuse too thought I, it's not the red wine. Okay, this was a great episode.  Dr. Lauren Streicher: If you do think it's gonna make them gain weight, it will not. But there are so many other options and I really do believe that an i u D is critically important for young women of all ages. But I wanna, one other little fact that you may not know that's so interesting is there is,the Executive Director of the Kinsey Institute, Justin Garcia, he is the consultant for match.com, and every year they do an analysis of what people are looking for on online dating, as many students will do, and Tinder and what are the factors, all of them, right? And they found for the first time ever, that being anti-choice was a deal breaker for a record number of women. Isn't that interesting?  Susan Stone: I'm so happy you didn't let us stop this podcast until you got that out. that's a great fact. That's a beautiful and interesting fact. Yeah. And I wow.  Dr. Lauren Streicher: A whole episode with Dr. Garcia talking about all the match findings and it is really interesting. But I love that one cuz it, it means women are paying attention. And Absolutely they're changing their behaviors based on it.  Kristina Supler: Well, thank you so much for your time today and all the wonderful information you've shared. It's always such a pleasure to have you on.  Susan Stone: You know we're gonna ask you back cause anytime wealth of information. Thank you so much.  Dr. Lauren Streicher: Thank you. 

In this episode, KJK Student Defense attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler talk with Dr. Michelle Fourcier, a Professor of Pediatrics, Assistant Dean of Medicine at The Warren Alpert Medical School of Brown University.  Dr. Forcier specializes in gender, sexual and reproductive health.  In this episode, they talk about what all the terms of LGBTQ+ mean, how pediatricians work with both parents and children about gender identity, and resources for parents to learn more about this complicated issue. Links: PubMed Website Show Notes: (04:12) Understanding the Gender Terminology within LGBTQ+ (06:59)  How Does Type of Care Different from Heteronormative (09:27)  Assigned Gender versus Gender Identity: What is the Difference? (12:16)  Is the Child Just Playing With Identities?  Or Do We Need to Act? (15:02)  When Does a Physician Decide if Hormones are Required? (16:44)  Do We Want Puberty in Children to Happen Later? (18:11)  How Pediatricians Work With Children to Keep Them Safe (19:15)  What are the Side Effects of Hormones? (20:52)  Blockers: What Do They Do? (22:43)  Conversations with Parents Who Are Not on Board with Hormones or Blockers (24:45)  When Do Children Go Through Surgery? (25:32)  When Surgery for Minors may be Necessary (27:46)  What are LARCs?  How Do They Prevent STIs? (30:36)  Dual Method for Birth Control and STI prevention (31:46)  Consider This Thought If Your 14 Year Old Child is Sexually Active (34:19)  Resources for Parents to Learn More Transcript: Susan Stone: So everybody out there listening to this podcast know that my, this is Susan and my daughter got married this weekend, and I'm a little tired.  But  Kristina Supler: though you think everyone knows that. Everyone doesn't actually know that.  Susan Stone: I know, but I felt the need. This is Real Talk guys out there on listening land. I am exhausted. But I had to come into work today cuz they knew that we had, the books, the recording of this podcast. And we're gonna talk about pediatric health for the L G P. Lg, I told you I'm tired. BTQ Plus community and I, Kristina, I just wanna have a conversation about the health needs and not a political conversation.  Kristina Supler: Yeah. I'm really looking forward to today's episode because I think there's so muchto talk about and learn to have more real conversations about the issues versus some of the politicized language that has pushed people into corners and people have in many ways shut down and are not open to learning new information. Susan Stone: and I think we're just forgetting that we're still talking about kids. So why don't you kick off the guest so we can just launch in and talk about whatever the health needs are of the kids and guys, let's leave the politics out. Okay? For once.  Kristina Supler: Today we are really happy to be joined by Dr. Michelle Fourier, who is an associate professor of pediatrics and an assistant dean at the medical school at Brown University. And with extensive training and experience in adolescent health and sexual healthcare, she's dedicated her career to addressing the unique needs of the LGBTQ plus youth.  Susan Stone: That is the guest we needed for today's podcast, a Doctor.  Perfect.  Dr. Michelle Forcier: So let's jump in.  Susan Stone: Let's just jump in. Dr. Fourier, can you explain exactly what you do for that population? Dr. Michelle Forcier: I have been a pediatrician for about 25 plus years. And I've been providing gender, sex and reproductive justice care, basically across the lifespanfor this period of time. And it's been a pretty exciting, community, pretty wonderful and satisfying community to work for and to work with. And the way I look at providing care for the L G B T Q community is that it really is primary care. Basically gender and sexuality are part of human identity. And they're there before we leave the womb. There's a neat study about in utero masturbation, which is kind of cool. So we get started early and we are gendered and sexual persons, until we die. So if we look at gender and sexuality as being a ubiquitous part of the human experience, and we look at biology as absolutely diversity is a part of biology. It's one of the basic tenets of biology. Then we understand that both sex and gender are gonna be diverse experiences for a range of different people and folks. And my role has been to provide care for some of our most marginalized community members, which is the L B G T Q I A plus. Sometimes it's easier just to say rainbow population. I like that.  Kristina Supler: Before we dive in further, just to get some terminology nailed down for our listeners who maybe aren't as familiar. you've spoken about gender and sex and we're referencing the plus, but can you just define those terms for our listeners, particularly the plus as well? Dr. Michelle Forcier: Sure. For many gender has been considered in this very binary, traditional way of male, female. Or heterosexual and homosexual. Sexuality is about who we love and who we're attracted to and who we have different sexual behaviors with. Gender is who we are. It's a part of our identity in terms of being masculine, feminine, non-binary and all the other ways that we could express, a gendered self. And the world for many years has been pretty limited in terms of only discussing these binary identities. I think with time, with improved social discourse, with the advent of the internet and increasing knowledge spread in, in diverse ways and diverse communities, we understand that there are many, many ways to be sexual and many ways to be gendered. So the L stands for lesbian, which are persons, we might say women who are attracted to or have sex with women. Gay usually is referenced to either, males or females who are attracted to the same gender partner, bisexual, historically has been the term for people who identify as being attracted to both males and females. But now we have even more inclusive terms, which are things like pansexual, which means gender doesn't factor into who I'm attracted to. Transgender or gender diverse are persons whose gender identity doesn't exactly match the gender they were assigned by their parts, chromosomes or hormones and birth. I is another. Initial for intersex or persons who have differences, in sexual development in the parts and organs they were born with. And A can mean asexual or persons who really don't have a sexual affinity or an interest in, sexual activity.  allied, And the plus means there are probably a million different ways, and we know there are a million different ways people may identify in terms of how they see themselves as a gendered person and their gender expression and gender role and gender self in the world, as well as their sexual, um, attraction, their sexual behaviors and their sexual identity in the world. Susan Stone: That's a lot. That's a lot. But here's messy. Something that comes into my mind, because you are a pediatrician. How do those differences make a difference in terms of just treatment for well visits? What is, what type of care is specific and unique to that population as opposed to what I would call a heteronormative child. Dr. Michelle Forcier: Sure. to be honest, in any visit, and again whether it's children or whether it's adults, we should be talking about these aspects of selfhood and behavior and health needs across the lifespan. Of course, we should do it in a developmentally appropriate way. So if we're gonna talk to a six year old about their gender identity, we might ask them, they're like, what is it like to be a boy or a girl? How does that feel to you? How do you express boyness? How do you express girlness, For a 16 year old, that may have very different words in terms of, how do you view your gender identity? What parts of it are comfortable for you, what parts are not comfortable? Do you have any questions? Again, the same with sexuality. Who might you have a crush on versus, a full sexual history forlater teen or young adult who's sexually active with one or more partners. So it's all about, again, using the language of the patient and understanding where they are developmentally to continue to talk about these aspects of both selfhood and wellness during health visits. Susan Stone: Well, I guess I wanna press you on that because I'm a mother of three. And I would say for the first 14 years of, checkups. It's, you know, height, weight, weight, vaccinations,  Kristina Supler: poking and prodding,  Susan Stone: poking and prodding, talking about school and milestones. We really,  Kristina Supler: or at least that was your experience with your child's children's pediatrician. Susan Stone: Yeah, but I just don't rem I don't think conversations regarding sex came into play until when the making a decision about the H P V vaccine or maybe when does menstruation start for that being the end of growth? I guess that's what I'm confused. Or birth control when that comes in. But other than that, I think of, how big is the baby? Dr. Michelle Forcier: And I'm thrilled that you ask about this. Because what I'm proposing is a slightly more advanced model of care in the sense that, again, if we know that there is gender diversity in the world and some youth present as gender diverse, gender exploratory as early as four, five, and six. Shouldn't we be talking to parents about, say again, educating people? Your child who is assigned male or female at birth. But we don't know what their gender identity may be later down the line. And that's the one or two sentences that a pediatrician can have with a parent to, again, describe and educate the difference between an assigned gender at birth and the fact that potentially two or three of probably more percent of the population of young people are going to be, or exploring gender, or at least talking about it over time. Then when we know that many youth undergo puberty and it's considered normal. As early as seven or eight year old, you can start having breast buds. By age seven or eight, it's considered within the normal range. You can be having a period by the age of 10. So if you're waiting for the magic number of teen years, 13, you've missed a whole bunch of folks that have already started many and of the stages of puberty and actually maybe completely, adult in their hormones and progressing toward adulthood very quickly in terms of their bodies.  So by waiting till kids are teens until quote unquote, they're ready to be sexual or ready to go through the process of puberty, we've missed the boat in preparing both parents and kids for helping their children approach adolescence, approach the changes of puberty. Approach the concepts of being a gendered or a sexual person in a healthy and supportive way.  Think about it. Wouldn't it be easy as a parent or easier as a parent to talk about sexuality when it's theoretical? Versus you're coming in because your daughter's pregnant and you didn't even know she was having sex? I would prefer to talk with kids in a developmentally appropriate way over time. So that kids are prepared to make decisions and that we're not going back and saying, okay, now we need to deal with an issue. Now we need to deal with a problem. Now we need to deal with some sort of health need versus let's talk about anticipatory guidance. Let's have our kids be healthy.  Susan Stone: I know that you are involved in giving T blockers or hormones.  Kristina Supler: Oh, I was gonna ask about that.  Susan Stone: Yeah. I'm really curious, when do you decide that's appropriate? What are the side effects? Are they safe and are they safe? And also, how do you know, and this is a lot, that a child's just not playing with identities and trying on what suit fits because there is discussion versus this is real and we need to act.  Dr. Michelle Forcier: Sure. So we know that gender play trying on identities is common among kids. It's how again, we explore and figure ourselves out. But every kid that plays with their gender identity and gender rules and gender expression doesn't get hormones and doesn't go to a clinician to go get hormones. So if a child is really thinking hard and long about their gender identity, and oftentimes they'll think about it quite a bit before they even talk to their parents, they'll have that conversation with their parents about maybe the gender they were B with were born with doesn't quite fit them. Or maybe it absolutely doesn't fit them. And we have kids really at young ages, just like they know their cisgender identity. We have some kids at very young ages know their transgender identity. Regardless as a parent, in some ways, it really shouldn't matter what their gender identity is. What you want is to create a home situation and ideally again, or early clinical situation where kids and parents have lots of information so they can explore gender in whatever ways make sense for that child in a safe and healthy way. If you look at the studies by Kay Olson, the Trans Youth, project, she shows that kids that grow up in supportive environments, kids who present early as gender diverse and exploring gender identity, she demonstrates that they look just like their cisgender peers in terms of anxiety and depression growing up in supportive households. Now a supportive household doesn't care. The endpoint is a happy and safe child. It doesn't matter which directions the child goes in terms of gender identity, because as an accepting and loving parent, I don't care what their gender identity is. I want my child to be authentic. I want my child to feel safe. I want my child to feel loved. I want my child to feel heard and respected. And it doesn't matter what their gender identity is. They're my child.  Kristina Supler: Is there an average age when the research shows children start to explore gender identity and conversations are starting to be had within households or is it different for everyone? Dr. Michelle Forcier: It's different for everyone. I've had 80 year old patients come to me and say, now is the time that they're ready to start their gender affirmation process.  Susan Stone: But I do wanna press back on the question. Yeah. Because there are parents who do want to help their child. Yep. Good hormones are a health option. And I think Kristina's question was a good one. When does a physician make, how does a physician, and when does a physician make a choice that this is appropriate and are they safe?  Dr. Michelle Forcier: It's not based on age. It's based on need. And so a patient will go through a very thorough evaluation. People don't just walk in clinic and get a shot of puberty blockers, people. Kristina Supler: What do those evaluations entail?  Dr. Michelle Forcier: Oh, long history. About home, about activities, about the family medical history, their medical history, their social history, substances, self harm and mental health issues, exposures at home, in school,  Kristina Supler: it's like I assume questionnaires are given to children and parents as well. Dr. Michelle Forcier: It depends. And I mean, I find that most kids would rather talk to me than fill out a piece of paper.  Susan Stone: Yeah. So we talk. So if you make the decision that it's appropriate, what are the, the benefits and what are the risks?  Dr. Michelle Forcier: So the benefits, again, just remember we're not having the same conversation about, say, kids that are using the same medication for precocious puberty. Again, just to remind yourself in the context of avoiding political chatter, same medicine, kids not talking about it at all. So these are very safe medicines that have been around for many, many years. And we've used them in first, studied them with precocious puberty. Again, completely reversible.  Susan Stone: because Provo, is it true doctor, that precocious puberty, which just for our listeners who mm-hmm. don't know what that is, that's the onset of pub. Pub of puberty, very, very early at life. And we wanna delay that as much as possible because they're now finding that, especially for females, you want a puberty go in later and menopause to be later.  Dr. Michelle Forcier: Well, you want puberty to be later for a couple reasons. Number one, it would be really, really weird to have a fully feminized body at age six. Horrible. Yes. So they're social as well as biological consequences. And these kids use puberty blockers far longer than many of our trans kids. Again without all the bruja about safety and effectiveness. So puberty blockers basically are an hormone analog, and they fool glands in the brain to shut down and stop secreting the hormones that trigger ovaries and testes to secrete testosterone and estrogen, the sort of puberty hormones that start to create adult body and adult sort of physiology. And by putting this temporary pause on those brain gland signals, the ovaries and testes just sort of rust. They stop secreting. And when we take away that hormone, the ovaries and testes start secreting again. So it's sort of like putting a pause button on your Spotify or your, your music player. Pause, lift it back up. The music starts right back where it was. It just has a delay in time.  Susan Stone: Have children ever gone back but forth and said to you, you were, they were on the medication and then said they changed their mind? Or do you see that when kids are evaluated, you make that choice, they're happier, more fulfilled, and they'll stay on it long-term? Or is it across the board?  Dr. Michelle Forcier: It's across the board. as a pediatrician, we wanna keep asking kids, is this the right path for you? Should we be doing this? Does this still help you figure out who you need to be, where you need to go? Or are, have you figured some of these things out and don't need puberty blockers anymore? Or have you figured these things out and now need gender hormones? It all depends on the child. So our job is not to push someone forward through gender hormones or puberty blockers. It's to keep asking kids, what do you need? And that's medicine 1 0 1 patient. Sure. What do you need? Where are we now? Things change in our body. Things change in our heart and mind. We have to keep talking and listening to kids to find out what they need. So if they need to stop, they should. And if they need to, start again because stopping actually demonstrated that they are really uncomfortable with the changes of puberty. Then, yeah, we can honor that request and honor their experience.  Kristina Supler: So what are the, what are some of the risks though, that can be attendant to taking these hormones?  Dr. Michelle Forcier: Well, the way I tell kids and parents having to come to the doctor to get a shot kind of stinks. So that's a risk and that's a bummer. Let's see if kids start these medicines very early in puberty, there's very little change in their internal hormone environment. So they don't have side effects like say, menopause, some hot flashes and some little bit of irritability as hormones are shifting.  Is growth impacted?  Growth usually, is, that's a great question. Impacted in the sense that, trans boys may have the potential to grow a little bit taller because we're gonna block estrogen's effect on growth plates. And for trans girls, again, we can work with them to look at again, their potential height or their, high trajectory to figure out how tall they are gonna be. And will that factor into, again, starting estrogen or gender hormones so we can use it again to inform our patients what their options are. So that they can be in a body that's comfortable and safe for them. Susan Stone: Well, is, are those blockers different than hor gender hormones to help, let's say in a trans. Would it be a child who identifies as trans male wanting to be female? I hope, again, I'm terms right and forgive me if I'm getting 'em wrong. So if you want to help someone develop the other way, or maybe a female by birth sex, who wants to be a male, is that a different type of hormone or medication protocol? Dr. Michelle Forcier: So blockers are used basically just to stop the current gonads, ovaries and testes from secreting, estrogen and testosterone. If a patient is either way past the beginning of puberty or a patient is on gender blockers, you know, puberty blockers, they can start the other hormones in the past referred to as cross-gender hormones to basically start the puberty that makes sense for them. So if I am identifying as female, and I have been on puberty blockers, At age, say 13 or 14 or 15 or 16, whenever again that child, that patient says it's appropriate for them, they have parent support and we all have a plan. They may start estrogen so that they can develop just like their peers. Which we think, again, has a positive health benefit in terms of, again, that congruence.  Socially with my body is developing just like my friends. I feel normal, I feel accepted, I feel like,I'm a part of my community. So for boys puberty usually happens a little bit later, so sometimes they might start their male testosterone hormones a little bit later, say, than females. But again, It's all dependent on when we first see a patient, how far they've gone through puberty, what they understand of their gender identity and where they are in terms of making a plan to affirm their gender identity or not, or just learn more and explore. Kristina Supler: What do you say to parents who are in your office with the child and the parent you can tell, just isn't on board with the child's desire to start hormone therapy or whatever the circumstance may be. What sort of conversations do you have?  Dr. Michelle Forcier: Would that ever happen? Never. So yes, that happens quite frequently. We have parents that want us to say, this is just a phase or a fad. Let me tell you, being transgender or gender diverse is hard in our culture. It's hard. And when we see kids in our clinic, the vast majority of the time, they're there for real issues, real goals, and real pain. And we need again to start with taking our patients at their word and carefully explore what they mean by their experience, their dysphoria or their goals. So I tell parents, listen, you and I are coming from the same place. I want a safe kid, a kid who's around alive participating in the world, the kid who's healthy. Who's mentally and physically healthy. We may come at it from slightly different approaches. You're coming at it as I expected my child to be cisgender and to I wanna walk them down the aisle, at their wedding and they're gonna have a baby and provide me with grandchildren. And my job as that child's pediatrician is to say, your child is telling me that their body, if it's to continue to develop, say, into a female body, is gonna create such harm, such discomfort with their physical self, such anxiety and depression because in their heart and head they identify as male. And so we have to really listen to your, your child and hear what they say in terms of how do we explore the identity you were assigned at birth with the identity that you are telling me you experience now.  Susan Stone: When do you talk about surgery? When does that enter into the conversation? Because it's, I think, One, I think it's a very different conversation. When do you start maybe blockers or hormones versus when do you actually put a child through radical surgery that you can't reverse?  Dr. Michelle Forcier: Most children don't go through quote unquote radical surgeries. In fact, children have far more radical surgeries for lots of other issues or problems, and they ascent to the process of surgery for whatever their healthcare needs, along with the consent of their parents. So I think that's the first thing to take that. would some children  Susan Stone: wa, I would say would wanna com complete the process right?  Dr. Michelle Forcier: But many children don't have necessarily the support or the resources to necessarily go through some of the more major and intensive surgeries. Vaginoplasty and phalloplasty creating a vagina and a penis are very intensive. People don't usually do that until after age 18.  Susan Stone: Okay. So it's not really a pediatric issue then?  Dr. Michelle Forcier: No. Now say there are some youth, and this is the more quote unquote common surgery, although again, with blockers, we don't have to do this quite as often now is say a child's developed breast at age seven or eight and say they identify longstanding as a trans male. Why? When they come see me at age 16, or they come see me at age 14 and by age 16 they're gender dysphoria regarding their adult size breasts, which they've had now for eight years is killing them. They're not showering. They're wearing a binder 24 7. They have suicidality and again, nothing's changed in their gender identity. Why would I say you need to wait two more years until the magic number of 18 to have a male chest construction knowing that nothing has changed from age six to now 16, and you have had eight years of female breast tissue That's harmful. The harm in that is far greater than the harm of saying you're 16, you've been through years of care with us. You're gonna be as assessed by a surgeon. The surgeon may require other information before they do your surgery. And then through this long standing process, not I come in the clinic and tomorrow I have my chest removed, oftentimes months to years I get my chest surgery and I no longer have to wear a binder 24 7 and I can take a shower. And look in the mirror.  Susan Stone: So it can be a pediatric issue. Yeah. Something that a pediatrician. Okay. That's all I wanted to understand. Yeah. Is this something that pediatricians deal with versus not? Dr. Michelle Forcier: Not too often. And most of the time when we get to the point of surgery, again, there may be a number of people involved including gender specialists as well as including mental health people as well as the team that works with the surgeon. So we're talking about a whole lot of people.  Kristina Supler: Dr. Forcier can you tell our listeners a little bit. I, in preparing for today, we came across the term or pneumonic I had never seen before. Lark. Susan Stone: I looked it up too.  Kristina Supler: How do you work with this population in terms of contraception and tell our listeners what a lark is and yeah,  Susan Stone: Because a lark is not a bird, guys. It's an acronym.  Dr. Michelle Forcier: No, and it's wonderful. It's a long acting, completely reversible contraception. They are a little device we can put in the arm or an intrauterine device we put in the uterus. So the I U D, right? Yeah, exactly. They're so effective in terms of preventing pregnancy.  Now we know that young people may not identify, they may identify as straight, but they have either same sex relationships. We also know that young women who have sex with women are actually at increased risk for STIs in pregnancy because they're not prepared.  Susan Stone: Wait, wait. So I was gonna say, if you have a child who tells you that they're interested in only sex with their own matching sex, not gender. Mm-hmm. Because that can be an identity issue. Yeah. You know what? I have to be honest with you, Dr. I would think, why do I need to go down the contraception path?  Dr. Michelle Forcier: Because the data says that young women who have sex with women get STIs and get pregnant because they're exploring well, but wait.  Susan Stone: But long act larks won't prevent an sti I only condom use. Correct. Or dances. They're not  Dr. Michelle Forcier: having sex barriers prevent  Susan Stone: STIs. yes. But given we all know, we can all say that. But we are in the world. World and teens engage in sexual activity. I like the idea of a lark in terms of, you don't have to depend on taking that pill and memory. You got, I gotta be honest with you though, it's not as good though in terms of St I. Infection prevention, is it?  Dr. Michelle Forcier: No, it's purpose is not to prevent STIs. To be like asking your microwave to show you a TV show. Your microwave isn't gonna play Netflix. It's a D, it's a d it's a device for a different purpose. So we need, so I feel like I'm missing about this. Talk about them as separate  Susan Stone: pieces. Help me out. help me out. I'm getting confused.  Dr. Michelle Forcier: I dunno.  Kristina Supler: I'll ask the dumb question. so I mean it's essentially an i u d . Dr. Michelle Forcier: What's essentially an i u D? A lark. Well, no, there's one that goes in the arm or and there's one that goes in the uterus. There, there are different kinds of long, I was confused. Thank you. Yeah. Got it. Cause it's just about the location of the implant. Some young people don't want people putting things in their uteruses. They don't want a pelvic exam. They're freaked out. And so that little rod in the arm that suppresses ovulation, wonderful. Very effective, very easy to put in and take out. Nice.  Kristina Supler: So it's really about patient comfort and what the patient is more,open to.  Dr. Michelle Forcier: Shouldn't that be patient care 1 0 1 anyway?  Susan Stone: Yes. Yeah. But, but, but we still need to insist that students are mindful of using condoms or other ways of preventing disease. So what do you recommend a LARC plus what Dr. Michelle Forcier: I mean the lit well number when the literature shows that, dual methods are wonderful and especially dual methods of STI protection with some sort of barrier method or condom, internal external condom. Or again, a lark in terms of a long-acting reversible contraceptive.  So again,think about the story. You have a parent coming in and she's worried about her teen being sexually active, right? And she says, I don't wanna, I don't wanna allow her to have birth control, even though she tells me this is what she wants, cuz that's gonna give her permission to have sex. Do you really think the parent allowing birth control gives that child permission to have sex? Or do you think that child's gonna make that decision to have sex on their own?  Susan Stone: You're talking to two lawyers whose whole practice is dealing with students and issue sex issue. So and and I have to gather that people who listen to our podcast are well on the way of understand. I guess our questions are focused differently because really our parents all are very supportive of their students and their choices. We're very lucky that by large, by and large, not all of 'em, but. By and large. Yeah.  Dr. Michelle Forcier: but I think the main thing is your kid's telling you they need something and you may not agree with the fact that you want them to be sexually active. Most of us aren't super excited to think about like our 14 year old being sexually active, but I'm not a 14 year old. But if my 14 year old is sexually active, I would really wanna make sure they had good birth control and I would really wanna make sure they understood things like consent. Saying no, saying you need to use a condom. And walking away from that encounter feeling empowered and safe. We don't how Advocacy, yeah. Yeah. If we don't talk about sex and how to manage it, how are young people gonna make thoughtful decisions? And safe decisions.  Kristina Supler: What are some of the most promising or not promising, pressing health issues facing the lgbtq plus community today?  Dr. Michelle Forcier: I thought we weren't gonna talk about politics and legislation. so I'm gonna say health issue. Health issue. Health. Health issue. Yeah. Those are health issues though. Because those are about geographic and political access to care and a state by state basis.  Kristina Supler: So Access's huge. Yeah, funda fundamentally just, it's not even access so much access, the medicine or the science, it's access. Dr. Michelle Forcier: Sure. The science is actually a lot less exciting because the science is pretty consistent. In terms of avail, like different types of availability and access to care for larks is really important. The safety of abortion, the benefits, short term and long term of gender affirmative care.  The science, again, we're not seeing there's like a huge variance in terms of different outcomes in different studies. The outcomes are pretty consistent in terms of access to care improves outcomes. And a whole host of these sexual gender health issues.  Susan Stone: I have to tell you something. I learned something today because, I learned a lot. I did not know what a lot of these acronyms meant, and they're missing, I have to be honest with you. I like taking worries off the table and I did not think you had to worry about pregnancy when you have a child. I thought that, that's, a huge benefit is that's one issue off the table. Or I didn't think about the s t I issue. So I thank you for educating me.  Kristina Supler: Absolutely. I think that this has been a really good discussion with a lot of information for our listeners. And if, parents out there listeners want to learn more about you or any of your research or any good literature, where would you direct them?  Dr. Michelle Forcier: PubMed has lots of good information in terms of all the research. Not just me, but all the research that supports sort of making these types of decisions. Up to date is a nice summary of different information about gender, sexuality, and reproductive healthcare. I'm happy to come on with you guys if you ever wanna have a question and answer session. This is really important stuff and I'm really excited to talk science and to talk evidence and to talk about listening to kids. So I'm, I so appreciate what you're doing and happy to be helpful in any way.  Susan Stone: Thank you, and I'm concerned. I can't imagine, doctor, how many doctors in your area are across the country?  Dr. Michelle Forcier: I wish, that's what, that's why we keep talking about this healthcare being primary care. Primary care, pediatricians, family, medicine doc, nurse practitioners, we all should be comfortable talking about gender and sexuality because they're a part of our lives and they're a part of primary care. Yeah. So we're,  Susan Stone: I can, we're doing more and more training. Yes. Yeah. We do need more discussion about this. Because like I said, when I think of a well visit with the child, I do think of weight, health, and, pumping meningitis, getting,yeah. Yeah. So thank you.  Dr. Michelle Forcier: My 14 year old did not wanna talk about pooping and peeing. There were more pressing and more pertinent issues relevant to her life. Oh, than age 14.  Susan Stone: You need to spend a day at my house because, Pooping is an everyday conversation.  Dr. Michelle Forcier: Okay. And not that, I think it's time to wrap it up.  Kristina Supler: Time to wrap it up. Dr. Forcier thanks so much for joining us and we, hope our listeners enjoyed this episode. Dr. Michelle Forcier: Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. 

In this episode, KJK Student Defense attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler talk with Andrew Fishman, licensed clinical social worker in Chicago, Illinois who works with clients to understand the impact of video games on mental health.  In this episode, they talk about the subject of kids socializing in video games.  Topics include why kids are using online games to meet people, what works and what doesn't work for balancing kids between the online and offline world, and simple strategies parents can use to ensure their kids are safe online. Links: Andrew Fishman on Psychology Today Show Notes: (05:16) Why kids are using video games to meet people (07:41)  Texting or Voice: How kids communicate in these virtual worlds (08:34)  Did Covid cause online meeting to explode? (09:18)  Stranger Danger: Can Anyone Talk to your Kids Online? (11:05)  At What Age Should You Trust Your Kids to Chat Online? (11:45)  Do Time Limitations Work? (12:46)  Why Some People Prefer Online Socialization (16:14)  Video Game Addiction: Is It Real? (16:59)  When Anything Could Be Classified as Addiction (17:47)  Dopamine Hits:  Overblown or Real? (19:13)  Simple Strategies Parents Can Implement to Get Kids Into the Real World (21:07)  Are Kids Even Interested in Reading Anymore? (23:12)  Roblox:  Friendly Game or Hateful Space (25:01)  How Parents Can Really Judge if a Game is Safe For Their Kids Transcript: Susan Stone: So I just got back folks out there in listening land from Portugal, and I haven't even told this story to Kristina yet. So one morning I'm at breakfast and I see a cute family, a mom, a dad, and a little boy. And I had noticed them the other day at breakfast and I actually had noticed them the evening before at dinner. We had landed at the same restaurant probably cuz the concierge always sends you to the same restaurant. Do you guys know that out there? Totally true. Totally true. And, The little boy is just being so well behaved. And I remember when my kids were little that it was really difficult in a restaurant to be kids. Kristina Supler: Oh, he has such anxiety going to a restaurant with these kids. Oh yeah.  Susan Stone: Yeah. Talking to the mother, she there, she's fascinating. She was really lovely. Fa. They're from the UK and I said, I cannot believe how well behaved your son is. I remember when my kids were little and you know how well they're doing on this trip to Portugal. While it was a lovely romantic vacation for my hus, hubby and I. I didn't really see it as a place for  Kristina Supler: kids families.  Susan Stone: Yeah. I mean it was, there were a lot of family, but when, I think when my kids were little mm-hmm. They just wanted to splish splash at the pool. Do kid stuff. I did a lot of kid stuff and she said,I really believe that to raise children, they need to be bored and come up with their own creativity. And in theory, I play by that rule too. Kids need to engage in imaginative play. But Kristina, the kid's face was glued  Kristina Supler: to a tablet, let me guess.  Susan Stone: To a tablet. I'm like, I saw where you were going with this. Ah, that is not imaginative play. In my days, I would give my kids blank paper, not even coloring books. And some crayons at a restaurant and say, Keep yourself busy, dude. And then they didn't, they misbehaved, but that stuck with me. Sure.  Kristina Supler: it's in this day and age when in any situation for kids, the minute there's like even a hint of misbehavior, you give them a device.  And even for adults, if you think about it in an awkward situation, you have time to kill. What do we do? We immediately turn to our devices versus looking around us talking to a stranger. Looking at something, on, on the street. It's just, we are so into our devices, whether it's kids or adults.  Susan Stone: Oh, how many times have you gone out to dinner with someone in their faces of, in their phone. And I've done it. And I'm not judging this parent because you know what? I didn't have that available when I raised my kids dad. Sure.  Kristina Supler: And I just also, as a working mom, I just have, I just think about you have a long day. You wanna enjoy an evening out with your family, with your kids. You wanna have family time. And then something starts to unravel or someone's a little cranky, or who knows what the situation is. It's, I get it. Like it's easy to just say, here, honey. Okay. Look at my phone.  Susan Stone: And so is the tablet, the older kid pacifier.  Kristina Supler: Sure. Look at that. I think so. yes. The tablet is the modern day Passy. There you go. There you go.  Susan Stone: There's your baby Bop. Or as Josh, I'm gonna embarrass you out there. He used to call him his baby ah. But why don't you introduce our guest.  Kristina Supler: Sure. So today we are really happy to be talking with Andrew Fishman. and we're gonna talk. Hi Andrew.  Andrew Fishman: Hello. I'm happy to hear here.  Kristina Supler: Welcome Andrew. Andrew's a licensed clinical social worker and therapist based in the Chicago area. He specializes in working with adolescents certified in treating video game addiction. Andrew is dedicated to addressing the challenges faced by young individuals in today's digital world. Passes everywhere. He actively contributes in the field that's good, in the field of video games and mental health by sharing his insights and knowledge through his articles on Psychology Today.  Andrew's expertise has garnered attention beyond the realm of therapy. He's been featured in publications like The Wall Street Journal and Al Jazeera. He's also given a host of Noteworthy speeches.  Today, what drew us to Andrew was an article that appeared in Psychology Today entitled, Why So Many Teens use Video Games to Meet others. And so this is a cool topic that we're gonna jump into. And again, Andrew, we're really happy to have you with us today. Welcome. Thank you again.  Susan Stone: So let's kick it off. Your article, which I have right here with me. Why so many teens use video games to meet others. Your premise is that the video games have become the new mall where kids meet. Can you, yeah. Talk about this and elaborate a little more.  Andrew Fishman: So kids really want to spend time with each other in person. But it's where can they go? They wanna hang out with each other in person. But they just there's nowhere to do it. When I was a kid, we had all sorts of places to go. That was 20 years ago. But all those places I looked at them, they're all closed, oh yeah.  Susan Stone: Or you don't feel safe sending them. My dad used to drop me off at the mall. Kristina Supler: I was gonna say, and my day, it was Camelot music. We all went and hung music store. So I, there's not a lot of places. For kids to go, I'm saying kids, but teens, young adults and people's houses. Susan Stone: Why not mm-hmm. The basement.  Andrew Fishman: Yeah. No, that's it. that's great. And that's one of the places that they have. I think part of the problem with, for my clients at least, is how do you get to those places? Mm-hmm. With both your parents now work. You're,and you don't have a car yet. You can't go to their, you can't go to somebody else's house. And a lot of the parents don't want their kids going anywhere during, on a school night, which makes a certain amount of sense, but that's now five sevenths of your week that you can't see other people. And so they're they come home on a Monday night and they're exhausted from school and they wanna see somebody else. They wanna talk to a peer. And their options are calling somebody on the phone, which nobody does, or they can,or they can text each other, which a lot of them do. Or they on, on Snapchat or something. Or they can have a long fun voice chat while sharing a game and that, so those, what they call third spaces, which is the place other than school or work or home, the malls, the bowling alleys, the churches, all sorts, the places we used to meet people. This has become their third place where you go home after school and you can go to a virtual third place and spend as much time with your friends as you want. And so it, it certainly makes sense that you would go there.  Susan Stone: How do you talk to each other? Or are you just playing? Explain how it works to this. Kristina Supler: Are people who are in these online communities only talking about the video games? Are these people talking about, I don't know, favorite food sports team's life?  Andrew Fishman: it depends on the game, but generally, yeah. People talk about all sorts of things when they're with friends. People talk about their day. They complain about teachers. They, do all the typical adolescent conversations and even if they're not, Talking about their lives outside of the games and they're just talking about it. I still think it's a positive experience.  Susan Stone: Wait, are they talking or is it texting?  Andrew Fishman: That's a, it's a good question. There's both. So some of the games, most games, if there's a multiplayer component, will have a text feature in the game. Some of them also have a voice chat, and there's also supplementary apps you can use. There's one that's really popular called Discord. It's a website and Yep. So it's for listeners, it's a website or app that you can use to communicate and build little virtual communities. I have, I, I met a few of them myself, and they're fun, but you, it also has a feature where you can just, make a group of friends and then set everybody up with a headset and then chat on this external app while playing a while, playing a game. Kristina Supler: Andrew, these online gaming communities,they're obviously extremely popular. Were they popular pre covid d or do you think Covid really caused the huge surge in, in the involvement of young people in these online communities?  Andrew Fishman: Actually, I think I, they've always been popular. I think that it's certainly, there, there was definitely a surge. And I think a lot of the surge was people much older than adolescents where I, I wasn't always online talking to people that's ing about adults,  Kristina Supler: I think. Andrew Fishman: Huh? Yeah. And so suddenly I was alone in my apartment. I just, I needed something to do. And I wasn't allowed to go outside for a lot of it. And so I could go to, somebody's virtual island in Animal Crossing and go run around and catch bugs there. And so that was just a nice way to spend time with other people. And so there was definitely a surge. I think the surge might have happened with our age kind of people though.  Susan Stone: Can, is it limited to your own friend group or can strangers infiltrate? Is this state?  Andrew Fishman: That's a really important point. So there are many people just talk to their friends. Some people only talk to the people on their team. If you're playing a team-based game, us versus them. And sometimes you're just open to anybody who's around. You can hear you talk and you can talk to them. They can talk to you.  I don't like that. I don't like that.  Right? And so and so that gets ugly really quickly. I hate that. I don't usually use it at all. Because as soon as I turn on a game, if I have what's called public chat on. There are slurs. There's derogatory comments made. There's ju offensive things said pretty quickly. I don't know that I've ever turned on and been turned on a game and really been happy with the conversation for the whole time. And so most of the time I just turn off the public chat option.  Susan Stone: I'm gonna ask you a question, Kristina. Sure. And then I wanna know what the expert has to think. Would you allow your youngest is how old for our listening?  Kristina Supler: almost 10.  Susan Stone: Would you allow your 10 year old to play this type of game? And I'd like to know what Andrew thinks about what age is appropriate.  Kristina Supler: Chatting and interacting with others. No. But Animal Crossing for example, is fairly benign. My son does play Animal Crossing and I watched it and it's a little animal game with the, the settings and the, age specification for, you know, the version we bought. But I mean, what do you think on that, Andrew? In terms of kids, let's say grade school, third, fourth, fifth, even sixth grade, and in these online games with the community interaction component in chatting? Susan Stone: Yeah. What age should you, what age is recommended in your professional opinion? Andrew Fishman: I think it depends on the kid and the level of maturity. So for public chat, I wouldn't let them use it until 16, 17 at the earliest. If they're old enough to, if they're mature enough to handle hearing some really heinous things. And they know how to handle them. For chat or chatting with their friends, that's a different story for me. if you would let them talk to their friends on the phone unsupervised, it's probably fine to have them talk to each other while playing a game. That doesn't bother me at all. But public chat even I turn that off most of the time. Cause it's bad in some places.  Susan Stone: Do you think we should put a time restriction on how long your, you let your kid play? Because you would let your kid go to the mall for hours? Andrew Fishman: And so there is some evidence that being on screens for too long every day is harmful. But it depends. I guess what the alternative is if they are, if they have the option to go to soccer practice, that's probably better for their physical health than their mental health is to be running around and being with people in person. But if not, if they would be sitting and playing a video game by themselves versus playing it with friends, that's, I wouldn't encourage with friends anyway. And if they're not showing any signs of video games doing harm to them. There's probably not much of an issue with sitting around and playing for several hours. Kristina Supler: Andrew, I can just imagine my peers, my friends, and Susan and I were based in Cleveland. And so though we're not in Chicago or New York, we're also not in a total social desert. And I can just hear people I know saying, why would anyone prefer this online socialization? I don't get it. So can you shed some light on why, in fact, some people do prefer online socialization?  Andrew Fishman: It's a lot easier for some people. It's, it might be the only thing that's possible for some of them. So take for instance, somebody who has depression. It is just by definition, really hard to get out of bed. You have low mood. It is hard for you to just find the energy to do anything. Let alone set up plans. And then leave the house and get dressed and showered, and then go out and get to the place and then have to use all this energy to socialize if you know the way you want to. That might just, that might literally not be possible for some people. You are,  Susan Stone: Would you say from a therapeutic perspective, the goal is to maybe use it for scaffolding? Or do you think it's enough for some people? Meaning would you say, if someone has severe depression, okay, why don't we start here, but I really wanna get you, so you're going to a party and not abstaining from a party. Or do you think, why are we, this works if it's not broken. And this person can socialize this way, who cares? What's the downside?  Andrew Fishman: And a lot of the time I do want to use it as a scaffolding, as a less bad option. Because it's research shows that it's not as good to be online as it is to be in person. I think we all, that's gonna be my question. Yep. And so it's better than not having a person to talk to for sure. But it is not as good as going out to a party if you're, if you have the ability to do. And so we're comparing, I think, three categories of people. One is the people who just can't. Who do not have the ability to make friends in person for a variety of reasons. People who can, but it's difficult. And then people who really it's a choice. they go out all the time and they also wanna supplement that with games. And so each one of those, I would encourage to be in person whenever possible. But it sounds like for each of those three categories and people, and for all of us, if you, if your choice is being isolated and alone in your place, or to be sharing even a virtual space with somebody else, that's probably better for your mental health, just as a social animal. Susan Stone: What about playing, having someone over and playing chess or Monopoly or Scrabble or banana grams?  Kristina Supler: I think though what I'm hearing Andrew say is that for many that's just not an option for potentially a variety of reasons. And so I think that, I don't know. Would anyone disagree that having a friend over to play a board game is preferred to online social interaction? Probably not. But maybe for whatever reason, you have an ill family member, you live in the middle of nowhere, who knows? maybe you can't.  Susan Stone: Andrew what? I, two good points. Kristina w  Kristina Supler: So we read a lot in the news and in magazines and newspapers about the negative effects of video games, video game addiction. The who?  Susan Stone: Yeah. Online addiction. You're your thing, right?  Kristina Supler: Yep. Or the, the predators trolling these online chat groups. And some. Really fear the internet in terms of allowing their children to have interaction with it. In your opinion, what are some of the red flags that parents should really watch out for in terms of gauging whether their child's use of the internet is becoming problematic? Susan Stone: And is video addiction a, is it real or is it just not? No limitations.  Andrew Fishman: That's, I think you're heading at the heart of something really important is that there isn't a psychological, there isn't a, a consensus yet. So there's a thing called the dsm. You may or not be familiar with it. It's what psychologists and psychiatrists use to diagnose people. Video game addiction is in there. But only in the back as a condition for future study. So they're, they're aware of it. They're researching it. They're not sure whether to put it in or not. But some of those criteria that they're suggesting might be in there are what you would expect.  The letting it interfere with your schoolwork or, professional life. If you're choosing to play a game, instead of hanging out with people in person. If you are choosing, if you're. Spending more money on games than you can afford.  Kristina Supler: Sounds like any vice really.  Andrew Fishman: Yeah, it is. Yes. Where if it is starting to affect the, your quality of life, it's affecting the way that you live and you have lost control over it. That it's like any vice. But this, it seems like this is, video games are intentionally made to be habit forming. So it does feel a little more specific, like a kind of addiction rather than, let's say eating or, golf. Because, you could have the same kind of problems with golf where you would go there instead of Thanksgiving. And you could choose to ignore other people and spend a ton of money on it. But golf isn't specifically made to be addicting like video games are.  Susan Stone: I read an article that people get little dopamine hits. When they play video games. Is that real?  Kristina Supler: Yes. So like the slots in  Andrew Fishman: Vegas Uhhuh. Yeah. So I think that's a little bit of a, it is technically correct. But I think that's overblown because technically anything you enjoy gives you dopamine. And so that's just the mechanism by which your brain tells you that something is fun. And so when people say, well, video games give you dopamine, and so does heroin, that's not a fair comparison. Eating something gives you dopamine too. Really anything that you, you know that makes you smile is gotta give you dopamine. And so for me, an ice cream Sunday,  Kristina Supler: I was just, yes, ice cream Sunday gives you, which I save ice cream Sunday might give. Not really because like it genuinely makes me happy.  Susan Stone: Oh my gosh. A little hot fudge and whipped cream and some salted pe. We've gotta go to Mitchell today. It is my birthday today. So I want a Sundae yay. Thanks. Thanks. I get to be with you Andrew. Now we're socializing right now. I'm getting to know you. Mm-hmm.  Kristina Supler: So what are your thoughts, Andrew, in terms of guardrails that parents can put in place to help their kids find the balance between, Okay. Online socialization, good outlet. But also, as Susan says, have a friend over for a board game or go play soccer with some classmates. Go ride your bike, whatever. What are your thoughts on parameters parents can put into place?  Susan Stone: Or walk The dog Love Dog  Kristina Supler: and the dog. Walk my kids to help walk the dogs. Walk the dog.  Andrew Fishman: One thing I often recommend to parents is to not take the games away. As much as add other things in. In their place. I love that. So if you're, if you're going to tell your kid, all right, you're playing too many video games, you should, we're gonna live at you to an hour a day and you haven't filled that time with something else, then they're going to want to play more and more. They're gonna complain. They're going want to do that. If you then say, all right, let's get your ballet lessons. That sounds fun. Let's do that two days a week. You have expressed interest in that. Let's get you going.  Kristina Supler: Wasn't it also human nature? The minute you tell someone they can't have something that's prohibited, it's all you want.  Susan Stone: Yeah.  I still remember Saturday nights at home when watching my lineup was Love Boat and Fantasy Island and you've just aged yourself. I just did, but and I would spend sometimes, and then Sunday morning cartoons, I could watch those for hours. Is this healthier than regular tv?  Andrew Fishman: There actually isn't very much evidence to suggest that it's any better or worse. Interesting that you are being more active while you're playing a video game. So if anything that aspect is, is better, but it's. would you rather be playing a game or watching somebody else play one or watching somebody else or just passively watching Netflix for several hours. Or engaging with your friends in a virtual space. Kristina Supler: That's a great point, Susan. Cause I hadn't thought about that in terms of, is playing a video game really all that different from just watching tv? Mm-hmm. Arguably not. And yet, some might argue that video games are unfairly vilified versus A kid plopped in front of the television on Netflix for three, four hours. Susan Stone: What I get concerned about though, is I'm a big pleasure reader. As are you. I am, I love to curl up with a good book and a cup of coffee or a glass of wine. I'm not that picky on my beverages. But do you think Andrew kids are just reading for pleasure anymore?  Andrew Fishman: I think yes. I think it depends on the kid and it depends on the environment they grew up in. I think that people watch their parents more than they realize. And so if you are the kind of person who is saying, you should be reading more and you mean it, but you are on your phone playing Candy Crush for several hours a day, they see that. Yeah. They see that. That's what people do.  Where if you are the kind of person who shows them through your actions of other things to do. If you are the kind of person who does dedicate time to reading, they might pick that up. If you read with them and or find books, go to the library, find books recommended for them. Find that ones that they would really enjoy. A lot of kids would choose a book  Susan Stone: Or cooking. I spent a lot of time with my 17 year old in the kitchen and we cook some wacky things.  Kristina Supler: But I love the, it's just food for thought for parents in terms of, no pun intended. There you go. The environmental influence, sometimes Susan and I deal with parents who all over the country are dealing with various issues tied to, you know, a child being in crisis and kids, students of all ages. And sometimes it's, we get these cases with these really big issues. and there's all these therapists and counselors and you name it with outside professionals involved.  And sometimes it's like the easiest, not easiest, but simple things shouldn't be overlooked. You want your kid to read, have books in your house. You want your child to do be more active. Ha spend less time online with video games. Provide other options. Have other stuff in the house available. It's just, I, as we're talking, I'm just thinking about like the importance of not overlooking basics. Susan Stone: I'm a big fan of KISS method. Keep it simple. So were any other parting thoughts? Is there anything we haven't asked you that you really need our listeners to know about what you do? Warning signs, benefits, the floors open. I'm gonna say take your best shot.  Andrew Fishman: I think one thing that I really want to address is the game Roblox. Because it's the most popular game. It's the most popular game for I think, five to 12 year olds, or was last year at least. It's a, it is a people misunderstand it. They think it is a game. it's a platform for building and playing games. So all of the games you look like a little Lego person running around. It's very blocky, very sort of Minecraft aesthetic. But you can make any game you want using this software. So I think there's, I think there are 4 million different games people to, for people to join. Like different, you can play tag or you can play a shooting game or you can raise pets. Or you can, there, there are millions literally of, different kinds of games you can play. And it is as complicated as that because it's so varied. They, the social environment in a game where people are gardening for fun is gonna be very different than one where people are playing something for doing something violent.  There was shooting, yeah, there was a really notorious example that they took down. But existed for some time. Was there was a on Roblox? on Roblox? Yes. Okay. So this was something you could go to, And join at least pub publicly for at least a while before they caught it and took it down. But there was a concentration camp simulator.  Kristina Supler: Oh my God. Oh my gosh.  Andrew Fishman: Which is, which is like the worst thing I could possibly think of for people to be going, I to be going and participating in. And this was not meant to be ed educational or anything. This was just for fun doing some really hateful things. And so the people in that community are gonna be very different than the people in the other ones. And so parents here, I'm going on Roblox, and they think, okay, Roblox is fine. Roblox is a catchall term for a lot of things. Some of which are great and some of which are really not. And so I think parents should be careful which games they're playing on Roblox to play with them to see what kind of game culture they're experiencing. There's voice chat in the game itself. So if they can turn that on, then anybody can talk to you if you set, if you have that set onto, if you have that, setting set on. So that's something to be really careful about. And more than anything, I'd recommend that parents try the games themselves and play with a play along with their kids. Just say, Hey, you can playing that a lot. let me, can you show me how to do that?  Susan Stone: That's tonight's dinner conversation. You know what I do with my, daughter every night? We Wordle. Awesome.  Kristina Supler: I love Wordle. My kids are big Wordlers too, but I'm not.  Susan Stone: Yeah, you're not a Wordler.  Kristina Supler: I'm not a wordler, but my kids like that. I love Wordle. Yeah.  Susan Stone: Yeah. I love world Wordle. And actually it's interesting because I learn things about my daughter every time I play Wordle in terms of strategy. She's far more strategic than I am I this roadblock though. Listeners out there,  Kristina Supler: good tip for parents. Really play the games with your kids. Know exactly what the games entail. That's, again, really straightforward advice, but excellent advice and.  Susan Stone: Ask questions. Wow. Wow. We packed a lot in 30 minutes. You did.  Kristina Supler: Well, thanks for joining us, Andrew. It was a real, thank you so much for having me. Yeah, it was a good time chatting with you about these online communities and the gaming world. And I think that you've, demystified some points for us and I think helped us, you know, or hopefully helped our listeners recognize that there's some good in there too. And think about your own child and your circumstances and your family and just know what's going on with the game. So thanks.  Susan Stone: I'm still on Roblox I can't get off of it, but thank you.  Andrew Fishman: So I don't wanna vilify Roblox. There's a lot of good there too. There's a lot of safe communities for kids. But there's just be careful. Talk to your kids. Play the games with your kids. J. Make your own decision as a parent. Yeah. But thank you so much for having me. Bye-Bye. Thank you. 

In this episode, KJK Student Defense attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler talk with Professor Amna Khalid, an associate professor of history at Carleton College in Minnesota. Topics they discuss include the impact of trigger warnings on education, why teaching history needs to be done in context, and some strategies on handling difficult material in the college environment. Links: Professor Amna Khalid: https://www.carleton.edu/directory/amkhalid/ Banished Blog: https://banished.substack.com/ Show Notes: (02:36) What is the real definition of a Trigger Warning? 
(03:45) Do Trigger Warnings really work?
 (04:35) How Trigger Warnings compromise learning 
(06:26) Why universities need to teach tough topics
 (08:09) What professors can do to teach tough topics 
(09:49) Do universities have a responsibility for students with mental health issues? 
(11:39) What Professor Khalid teaches in her classes 
(15:18) Why the “customer approach” to higher education compromises learning
 (18:07) How Professor Khalid handles difficult material in her classes
 (19:41) Why learning about history is important 
(22:09) Cancel Culture: Is there a connection with Trigger Warnings? 
(24:21) What are the two biggest threats to higher education?
 Transcript: Susan Stone: Okay, listeners out there, I am gonna give you a trigger warning that we're gonna talk about trigger warnings. So I expect some of you might, send in some comments. We want your comments. But frankly, we're diving in on this sensitive topic, cuz I'll tell you what, recently Cornell University rejected a resolution requiring faculty members to provide trigger warnings about classroom contact that students might find traumatic. And I'm done with that. I agree. What about you, Kristina?  Kristina Supler: I agree as well. as Susan, we have this conversation a lot. outside of higher ed, like in the real world, life doesn't come with a trigger warning, does it?  Susan Stone: I gotta, I wish it did. I wish it did. We're seeing it and come into play in our practice when we're trying to help students who've been accused of some form of misconduct or have hired us to help i. pursue their claim of misconduct. And we wanna talk to them and work through difficult subjects. Difficult subjects. They're like, you're triggering me. I'm like, dude, I'm your lawyer. I'm not your mommy. We gotta work through the materials.  Where's the grittiness?  Kristina Supler: on that note, let's jump in today we're really pleased to be joined by our guest, Amna Khalid. Who is an associate professor of history at Carleton College in Minnesota. Having grown up under a series of military dictatorships in Pakistan, Amna has a strong interest in issues relating to censorship and free expression. She speaks regularly on academic freedom, free speech, and campus politics, as well as at professional conferences across the country. Her essays and commentaries on these issues have appeared in various outlets, the Chronicle of Higher Education inside Higher Ed, and she hosts a podcast herself, an accompanying blog called Banished, which explores censorship in the past and present.  Welcome.  Professor Amna Khalid: Thank you for having me.  Susan Stone: Could you start with the definitions of what is a trigger warning? I think it's self-explanatory, but just let's set the terms.  Kristina Supler: For people maybe who don't know and what's all this talk? Yeah. So give us  Professor Amna Khalid: the basics.  Yeah. It's a good question actually, because even for people who know, I think they get a little bit confused between what is the trigger warning and what is providing context. So a trigger warning is really just basically a label, if you will, saying whatever you're going to see or read next is going to include certain things that might be disturbing. And then it'll enumerate the things. It'll say sexual harassment, sexual violence, racism, et cetera.  And it's the idea behind it in academic circles at least, or on university campuses has been that it prepares students who might be suffering from trauma to, to get ready for the difficult stuff and dive into it. And it's supposed to aid their learning. So that's the kind of, supposed benefit of trigger warnings.  And that differs very much I would say from something like providing context. I teach difficult material. I always give my students a head up, heads up and I'll say, we're going to be dealing with difficult things. And I explain to them why they may be difficult. But it's not this kind of standard trigger warning, suicide, trigger warning, racism, that kind of thing.  Susan Stone: Does the trigger warning work?  Professor Amna Khalid: Well, according to all the research, which there's plenty of now, when they first came onto university campuses, there, there wasn't much research. But according to the research that has been done, what's been found is that A, they don't work. Two in certain cases, actually, they can be, they've been found to be exacerbating the situation so they make things worse.  And from an academic point of view, I think what I would say is what bothers me the most is that it reduces what could be a complex text or material that you put in front of students to just being problematic. And then all you are doing is dealing with or anticipating the problem that's going to emerge. So it really reduces the learning experience and flattens it out.  Kristina Supler: So really what I'm hearing you say is that trigger warnings, the irony here is it's compromising scholarship. Would you agree?  Professor Amna Khalid: It's certainly compromising learning. Yes. And I think it's not very helpful for students. I think we live in a, in an age of entitlement where people feel, especially young people, and it's not really their fault. So I don't want this to sound like kids these days. That's not the idea. But we live in an atmosphere where they've been taught that they're entitled to not be offended. And this really does come into conflict with what we are trying to do at college.  College is a very different environment. We're preparing young adults for full adulthood and as citizens of the country. And this kind of Molly coddling unfortunately, gets in the way of what a proper education should be equipping them with.  Susan Stone: Amna, I grew up with, my parents are both first gen Americans, my grandparents, all four were immigrants escaping oppression. My grandmother suffered a mental breakdown after she learned that all of her family was killed in the Holocaust. Nobody survived. So I grew up with my parents talking about the Holocaust at a very early age. I saw videos of the concentration camps. I think I was six years old when I saw my first Holocaust video, and of course, grew up thinking about Anne Frank, wondering what her life was like in the attic, knowing about me. How do you and you yourself, grew up in Pakistan and that could not have been easy. How do we teach important history lessons so history doesn't repeat itself? without getting into the nitty gritty. How do you talk about the Holocaust without talking about concentration camps?  Professor Amna Khalid: You've said it. How can you possibly teach it, and how can it possibly have the kind of effect that it's supposed to have learning about the Holocaust? My colleague and I, we often say if you read about the Holocaust and you're not disturbed, there's something wrong with you. You're a sociopath. It's meant to disturb you. So the point is that I think all of this is in, particularly when it comes to the study of history and literature, somehow you really can't have the growth that you are looking for without contending with these kinds of difficult things. There's no short circuit to it. And having said that, the other thing I want to say is that I really don't like the way we now have this line. It's, it's the battle lines are being drawn between faculty and students. As if we're there to harm them. This language of harm is very, very destructive to the college experience, I'd argue. We much like the Hippocratic Oath, we don't, we don't come into our classrooms aiming to harm our students. We are there for an education and, to give them an education. And the point is that much of the kind of growth that we want to contend with, much of the kind of history that is absolutely essential to know, like you said, there's no way of doing it without actually confronting the difficult things head on. Susan Stone: How do we talk about abortion? How do we talk about our own history of the Civil War? How do we talk about apartheid? Utah and South Africa. I don't know how you talk about apartheid without getting into some difficult conversations.  Professor Amna Khalid: One of the things I think that needs to be said is that I think like in all professions, I think there are bad professors. So let's just establish that. I think that there will be professors who don't necessarily do things with the adequate amount of care. However, that is a minority, I would argue, and that doesn't entitle us to change the way we do education entirely. And so for that reason, I'd say yes, you can't talk about apartheid, you can't talk about the partition of India without discussing the gruesome violence and the sexual violence that entailed. You can't teach about the Holocaust without actually talking about what gas chambers were and what the implications of, that you know, of the Holocaust has been for the rest of history. I. I really, I'm struggling a little bit because truly we can't get away from it. I think we can teach with care and compassion. I think we can teach and equip our students to, to confront these very difficult things, but we can't take away the fundamental kind of distress that some of this material might cause. And in fact, that distress is what you need. It is our jobs. I tell my students, you should be leaving my class feeling immensely uncomfortable and uncertain. It's to cultivate that intellectual humility and to cultivate the capacity to deal with difficult things and understand them. that is the aim in a college classroom.  Kristina Supler: Certainly through the Covid Pandemic, there has been a tremendous rise in mental health issues and I don't think there's any dispute that our country and the world is experiencing a mental health crisis. What can universities and professors do to support students mental health and their wellbeing without compromising academic rigor?  Susan Stone: Or organic discussion?  Professor Amna Khalid: Well, one thing I'd say is I think universities do have a responsibility towards taking care of students who are suffering from mental health issues. And that happens not so much in the classroom as it happens through counseling services and other kinds of auxiliary services that we provide on campus. Professors are not there to, we're not trained. We're just not trained to be therapists. It's not that we want to be mean or anything. It's just that we do not have the requisite skills. Having said that, I think professors do have a responsibility. We talk about academic freedom. Academic freedom comes with academic responsibility. And one of our responsibilities is to introduce students to material in a fashion thatthat is in line with our disciplinary, professional ethics. And those professional ethics require us to, to be mindful that we are dealing with young adults. You wouldn't just spring things on them. How do we help? Having said all of that, I will also say that yes, we are in a time when I think we are facing a mental health crisis and sometimes I see certain students and I just think you are not ready for college yet. Susan Stone: oh, preach. We talk about that, but on the other hand, tell us about the courses that you teach that can be particularly challenging from an emotional perspective. What is, what classes do you teach?  Kristina Supler: What subject matters are you delving into?  Professor Amna Khalid: Sure. So my expertise is in South Asian history, Indian history, 19th century mainly. But I teach Indian history and South Asian history across, different periods. I also teach history of medicine, and most recently, in part because I feel students are not fully aware of what free speech means. I've started teaching a course, which is a global history of free expression. I can talk about that more.  But first about the two areas I highlighted earlier. South Asian history, I teach about colonialism in India. Some of those topics that come up, with regard to colonialism, how, issues of gender, were entailed, in, were part of the ways in which colonial rule worked. When we look at labor issues, those are all very difficult things to think about when we talk about racism in that context, when we talk about violence in that context. One of the places that it gets really tricky for me, is when I teach the partition of India in 1947 into two separate nation states, India and Pakistan.  And that was one of the most bloody moments in world history. There were about 15 million people that were displaced. And I believe it is one of the largest migrations in world his, in the history of the world and very little is known about it in the American context. School context. And one of the things that the partition, one of the kind of key features of it was the very gross and very brutal degree of sexual violence that was enacted. And most of it was on the bodies of women. Not exclusively, but most of it was on the bodies of women. And there's a whole kind of, rationale behind why that happened.  But as I teach that, we read some very distressing first person accounts of what happened. We read some very, s like secondhand accounts of what happened. And these are not easy to read. These are difficult readings. Sometimes we, when I teach about South Asia, I te teach about the pogroms that have happened in India since partition.  And there's been a lot of communal strife. We watch documentaries, which again have some first person narratives of some of the survivors of this kind of violence. And when I'm sitting there in my classroom watching these, what's interesting is there are times when, and I've seen them several times, you know that they're so disturbing that I too am distressed. And I have tears in my eyes.  But the point is I can't shy away from it and I have to confront it. It is through confronting things that we begin to think about how we can have solutions to them. Or how we can think about history not repeating itself. Similarly when I teach my history of medicine course, we talk about the kind of decimation of native populations in the new world. For instance, when Europeans first came through small pox. And we read some of the accounts of missionaries who were writing about what was going on, and then some of the kind of accounts that talk about manifest destiny and how these people felt that they were entitled to be in this land.  Those are not easy things to read and they shouldn't be easy to read. So that's like giving you a sense of some of the material that I'm delving into in my classrooms, eh, history courses tend not to be places where we talk about very happy things. Occasionally, but the bulk of the material that we're contending with is stuff that we find difficult. Things that we want to not happen again. And we want to dive into the full range of human experience for those,  Susan Stone: But maybe this would be a mid-level approach that I actually could get behind. When you draft your course description and your syllabus I think it should be in the course description that this course is gonna contain highly sensitive material. And that you have to somehow give the consumer, because let's remember, you do teach at a private college. They have the right to take your class or not take your class. And if they choose to take your class, you have the right to deliver your message within academic freedom. Would you agree with that on any level?  Professor Amna Khalid: I. At most levels, but I want to just take a little bit of issue with, I think part of the problem, even though I do teach at a private liberal arts college, I think part of the problem in private colleges and public institutions is the neo liberalization of higher education and the corporatization of higher education, which has resulted in this customer approach and this consumer approach. So when students begin to take that kind of customer approach, then it comes with the idea of the customer is always right. And this is where we see administrators bending backwards to try and accommodate their needs and what some people say, pandering to students. I don't wanna say pandering to students. But I do want to say like jumping at every kind of little complaint that comes. So when it comes to the syllabus and putting things in your syllabus, if you are taking a course that is called Plagues of Empire, and on the first day we go through the syllabus, which is what we do, and we talk about the topics that are going to be there, it really shouldn't at college level be any mystery what we're going to be diving into, right? If we're talking about colonial expansion in the new world, clearly we're talking about disease, we're talking about the decimation of people. This should not come as a surprise. And like I said, it's not I believe strongly. N that we should contextualize what we teach. And a good history teacher does that. A good literature teacher does that. We go through what exactly is coming up and how, and why I think the rationale of why we've included it is one that helps students figure out why they must contend with something.  Susan Stone: But by the way, can I just challenge you on something though? Sure. I love a challenge. This is Real Talk. And I'm not great at math. Did you know that Kristina?  Kristina Supler: yes. Yes. I did  Susan Stone: Not My thing. Okay. So when I was in college, if there was a class that required heavy math, I didn't take it. And that I just wanna say I was a consumer. This isn't high school. I had the right to pick my own major and pick my coursework.   Likewise in law school, I knew that there were certain areas of law that I was never gonna practice beyond the foundational year of one l. It was about me crafting an education that would fit the future that I want. Not everybody's interested in history. But they might have a history requirement and maybe they're not interested in Southeast Asia. Maybe they're interested in the history of chocolate. Now,I just think you do have some rights as a consumer when you're paying that level of money. Challenge.  Professor Amna Khalid: So let me just, break this down. It's, I'm not anti-choice, right? There are, of course, as a college level student, you take whatever course you want to take, including the things that are required. So to be very clear, my argument is not that you have to take every course and you must be okay, contending with difficult material, right? But when you, but there are certain things which are require requirements. Now, I'll come to the requirements in a minute. On the first day of class, most of my classes, which are electives, I, I say to my students, this is the material and it's not just the material. I also tell them about my pedagogy. I say, this is how I teach. And that may not be conducive to your learning style. And I appreciate that. And my recommendation to you is, since this is an elective, don't take this course if this doesn't work for you. So it's not that I'm saying everyone must be subjected to my way of teaching in the material that I pick come what may. I think you do have a degree of choice as a student that you have to contend with. As a professor, you have to contend with the fact that students may or may not take your courses. And that's fine. But once you enroll in a course, you also have to deal with the fact that the care, the syllabus is very carefully put together by professors for a pedagogical reason, for a particular learning outcome. And just because you are upset by it doesn't mean that you should be A entitled to opt out or too entitled to have an alternative assignment. There's no alternative to teaching the Holocaust. You have to contend with what that is. And I had a student the other day saying, could we just have a reading that made this point without actually going through all of this? And I was like, no, we just can't. It doesn't exist. And we know we, we don't do that.  Susan Stone: But I'm sure the people who went through the Holocaust wish they had an alternative reality. Right? Well, they just like,  Professor Amna Khalid: Exactly, and that's what I tell my students. I'm saying, if our ancestors, whichever context you're thinking about, or people before us had to live through these things, had to live through colonial oppression, had to live through the Holocaust, had to live through civil war. The very least we can do is read about it. Because in many ways that act of reading is about bearing witness to history. And we must not forget and we must make their suffering and their experiences relevant for our times today. Because it's so easy to forget. And the biggest trouble, I think we're facing in our times, is that there's great historical illiteracy. This kind of entitlement is actually, I would argue, born out of historical illiteracy. When people somehow feel that they're entitled to not be upset, it's like you clearly don't know what the world is about, the bigger world beyond you.  And it reminds me of James Baldwin, who has this quote, which is You have your own suffering and you think this is the worst it can be. I'm paraphrasing, I can't, his words are far more eloquent. And then you read. And then you read and you learn that the world has so much more suffering. It's about getting that perspective.  And that's what I think my business as an educator is to give my students that perspective, not just by looking at history. like I said, I worry that we've become historically illiterate. But also by placing our experiences in the wider global context. The US has a kind of exceptionalist narrative that has turned into an isolationist narrative. And I think at our own peril, we suffer.  Kristina Supler: Amna, you used the word perspective and that makes me think, in our own law practice, Susan and I, in recent years, we're doing a lot of work across the country with restorative justice and we've seen such a rise in cancel culture. oh my gosh, you took up  Susan Stone: amazing. Bless Karen. it's  Kristina Supler: really, disturbing what we're seeing in my opinion in terms of a rush to just judgment so often My question. For you Amna, is whether you think there's any correlation, in the rise of the use of trigger warnings on college campuses and the dramatic increase in cancel culture as  Susan Stone: well. Oh my gosh, Kristina, I was thinking that very same question and that it is, it's like the three monkeys hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil.  Professor Amna Khalid: So I'll tell you, is there a connection? I think there is a connection. I'll also say I wrote a an article, a kind of longish article with my colleague Jeff Snyder on Cancel Culture, which is on my blog Banished, which is precisely looking atdebunking the myth that there is no cancel culture. People who challenge that, and I would ag argue it's very real and it's very alive.  Susan Stone: Oh, we know it's real.  Professor Amna Khalid: And I think there is a connection. I think we, this kind of lack of, we've become so unforgiving. And we've become so, like there's no room for mistakes. So I agree. There is this way in which we want to, it's not about justice now. It feels like it's about revenge. It's aboutwanting blood. People are out for blood. Nothing kind of satisfies them.  So I will say that I think there is a gross connection between these things. I think it's of a peace, this particular way of sensitivity and then this entitlement to not be offended to the point that you will not even consider the intent of what you're supposedly offended by and can demonst straight away. So I have a huge problem with this kind of idea of inte impact and intent being divorced, such that you are so concerned only with the impact that it has on you to the point that you don't even care how someone intended something. And again, I would say that kind of breeds this kind of naval gazing and this self involvement and that divorces you from the rest of the world. That divorces you from other people. So it makes it very difficult to build connections if you're so self-involved all the time.  Susan Stone: I just wanna give a plug. Because we could talk to you all day that you put some YouTube videos up with your buddy Jeff Snyder, one on trigger warnings and the difference, and another one on the difference between training and education. And they're amazing. I really enjoyed them. Thank you. And this  Kristina Supler: is, I enjoyed watching them as we got our thoughts in order and prepared for our dialogue with you today. And so I encourage all of our listeners to I love them. Check it out and check out your webpage to see your other materials there. There's lots of really interesting articles and videos and it was a real pleasure speaking with you today.  Professor Amna Khalid: Thank you so much. And just before I go, can I say one more thing? Of course. Yes. Yes. As someone who is in the space of higher education, and education more generally, I think the biggest threat, I will recognize that there are threats to academic freedom and learning that are coming from within the academy. So things like trigger warnings that try and curtail what you can and can't say. But I think the biggest threat is coming right now from state legislatures. That are trying to Yes. Ban what you can and can't study. If you ever want to have a conversation about that, I would be happy to come on again and talk about it. Because I think people need to understand why what is happening at the level of, state legislature is so wrong. Susan Stone: that's a whole other tune. Stay tuned. Stay tuned. Yeah. Cause we do wanna talk about, don't say period.  Professor Amna Khalid: Perfect. Yeah, we're on it. Period. period. Okay.  Kristina Supler: Don't say gay. Don't say gay. Gay. again, thank you so much and to our listeners, we hope you enjoyed today and come back for more. We're gonna do another episode with Amna delve into these other big, interesting issues. 

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Super are joined by Marbella Cáceres, Tammie Sebastian, and Lisa Lutz from the Ohio Coalition for the Education Of Children with Disabilities.  Topics that they discuss are the rights of parents with children with disabilities have.  The conversation includes how the coaliation empowers parents when getting their children assistance, how parents can get their children with disabilities services, and how to find out if your child has hidden gifts under their disabilities. Links: https://www.ocecd.org/ Phone Number: 1-844-382-5452 Show Notes: (03:00)  The Coalition: Fighting for Parent's Rights with Their Children with Disabilities (05:03)  How the Coalition Empowers Parents (08:04)  Empowered Parents: Resolving Conflict Resolution with Agencies (08:50)  How the Coalition Connects Parents with Disability Rights organizations (09:58)  On Your Side:  The Coalition Also Has Children with Disabilities (13:42)  Cover Up:  How Schools Focus on Disabilities But Miss Gifts (14:44)  First Step:  What Parents Can First Do if They Suspect Their Child Has a Disability (15:23)  The Three Tiers: What Every Parent Needs to Know (17:28)  How the Coalition Helps Families Who Don't Speak English (19:21)  What are the Parents Rights (21:35)  How the Coalition Helps Parents with Disabilities (23:46)  Why Schools are Required to Have a Language Access Plan (24:49)  What Over-Identification is and How It Can Hinder a Child (27:16)  Parents Best Bet: How the Coalition Interfaces with Other Agencies to Provide Families with More Services (29:59)  How Parents Can Work with the Coalition without Hiring Attorney Transcript: Susan Stone: Today we are gonna talk about the darling of our practice, and that is special education law. And I say it's the darling because even before you and I were law partners, I started the practice only dreaming about doing special ed. I still, oh,  Kristina Supler: How could there be life before us together?  Susan Stone: What there was,there was you and my three kids. Everyone says that. But there was. And it started with special education and one of our guests here today who you'll introduce, Tammie. I remember reaching out to her years ago when I was just a newbie. Trying to break in and create a name for myself and saying, can I come talk about special education? And you were so gracious, Tammie, to host me to give a primer. And I look back then and I think, wow, what I, I wish I had the knowledge and the mileage of life experience and working with clients that I do today. But you gotta start somewhere, right? Supler? That's right. So today we're gonna do a little special ed work. Why don't you introduce it.  Kristina Supler: Today we're joined by Tammie Sebastian, Louise Lutz and Marbella Cáceres, who are all with the Ohio Coalition for the Education of Children with Disabilities, which is a statewide nonprofit organization that serves families of infants, toddlers, children, and youth with disabilities in Ohio. And they also provide services O C E C D. That's a mouthful. That is a mouthful. Much all of special ed alphabet soup we say, right? Yep. They work through a coalition effort with parents and other professional disability organizations. They have individual members. It's been around since 1984 to help with parent training, and we are really pleased to be joined by three fabulous women today. Welcome.  Tammie Sebastian: Hi, how are you guys?  Susan Stone: We're doing great. We actually just finished recording a whole speech for milestones for their conference. We did a virtual lecture. So we are just back to back today. But to start out, could one of you lovely guests, explain what the Ohio Coalition for the Education of Children with Disabilities. O C E C D is  what you do and what your given roles are within the organization. That's a mouthful. But you guys can handle it.  Tammie Sebastian: I'm sure Marbella's gonna do that. And I'm sure she's gonna give you the correction on the 1984 when she, so I'll hand it over to Marbella, but 1984 is when we became a P t I. Is that correct? Marbella?  Marbella Cáceres: Yes, that is correct. thank you. First of all, I wanna thank you for the opportunity that you're giving the three of us to come and talk about the services. Our pleasure. The most important part. Yes. as you mentioned at the beginning, the coalition has been around long, long time. Early seventies. We became Wow. Yes. And then we were so lucky enough to apply for the federal funded grant to become the parent training information center for Ohio since 1984. So yes, we have been around for over 50 years. Assisting families, assisting educators with anything that has to do about their responsibility that parents have under the special education process. But the most important piece is the rights that the parents have in this process and how they can become informed so they can participate in this important, decision making meetings, for the benefit of the child children. We take our job very seriously. There is not enough that I can tell you about being involved at the coalition. I first became, part of the coalition just to be an interpreter translator. I've been with the coalition of over 17 years now. And I have the privilege to be serving, The stay under my executive director, Dr. Lisa Hickman as the assistant director. Right now I'm the assistant director of the coalition. I have been for the past three years. And I also oversee the multicultural department as the statewide multicultural coordinator, assisting families that do not have English as the first language, or they are limited English proficient. So that's a  Tammie Sebastian: big role. it  Marbella Cáceres: is. Lisa, Tammie.  Tammie Sebastian: Yeah. So Lisa, do you wanna Go ahead. Go ahead Tammie. That's fine. Okay. So yeah, this probably would be the even flow going to, so I actually, and as Susan had mentioned, so I had actually previously served in Lisa's role. And then I'll hand it over to Lisa. But I had covered Cuyahoga County as an information specialist for about nine years. and what did you do? So an information specialist is very unique. So as the state parent training information center, we empower parents to become effective representatives for themselves. And there's really a lot of confusion around advocacy or advocates and information specialists. And what we do is at no cost to parents and alsodistinction between advocate and information specialist. A as you heard, I said we empower parents.We do not come in and speak for parents. We do not act as attorneys for parents. We do that through education, technical assistance, and I'll let Lisa get into that a little bit more, as her role now as the information specialist in Cuyahoga County. But my role now, with the Ohio Coalition is I am the statewide program coordinator and that I wear many different hats. I provide professional development to staff. I also, create and update trainings. look for host, partner with different agencies to bring in statewide webinars. And also we have a lot of project work that we do. We collaborate with the State Department of Education, the Ohio Department of Education, and many other agencies, and do a lot of project work. We're working on some cross agency training right now with empowering families. Just, we have so many things going on. And I don't wanna take up all the time talking about all those things. I wanna give Lisa an opportunity and maybe we could come back around to that. And then also a big part of my role is networking and building those relationships. And that is so that parents can have a seat at the table, and that they can have a voice. Lisa,  Lisa Lutz: Hi, I, am Lisa Lutz and I am an information specialist and trainer. I cover not only Cuyahoga County, but Ashtabula, Lake Gaga, Portage Trumbo, Mahoney. So it's a very, wide and busy area. I do a lot of work with the parents. I do go into meetings with parents. I do primarily all virtual at this point because I can't get from one end of my area to the other. And parents seem to feel that they're treated differently when somebody comes in with them. So that support is really important to help them feel more comfortable and more heard and that their voice does have meaning. So that's,  Susan Stone: So would you actually file a due process complaint if necessary and serve as an advocate at a hearing?  Lisa Lutz: I do not file due process complaints. I am not a lawyer. If a family wants to file a formal complaint with O D E, I will do some suggestions. But I don't write it for them. I can walk them through that. But, that is for them to have that power to say what they wanna say.  Tammie Sebastian: And a big part of our role, too, as the state Parent Training information center is offering that conflict resolution, facilitation, mediation, and looking into all those things. We cannot tell a family what to do. But we wanna provide them with all the options. And as you guys are aware, there's administrative review. There's the state complaint process, due process. And so we try to work through all those through training, and through information. Cadre has a lot of resources. The na I think that's the Center for Dispute Resolution, the National Center for Dispute Resolution. So we really try to work through the process with parents. But if that's where they land, we will certainly help and support them through the process. We just don't file on behalf. If that helps.  Marbella Cáceres: Obviously, the work that we do, we recognize that sometimes there is systematic issues that need to be resolved for the benefit of that group of children and parents.  So in those situations we partner with agencies that do that type of work. We're very familiarized with Disability Rights, Ohio, the Civil Rights office. So we are a center also that provides resources to families. So if they come to us with specific questions like Tammie and Lisa were saying, we guide parents. We give parents options so they can make informed decisions. That is the responsibility that we have as the parent training center for Ohio.  Kristina Supler: I really like that all three of you have really in your comments heavily emphasized the importance of parents having a voice in the education of their children. So can you give us some more specifics on how you work with parents to empower them so that they do have voice to make sure that their child is receiving the necessary support and resources.  Susan Stone: To make a meaningful benefit for their education post injury? Tammie Sebastian: Yes. Yeah, that's, I'm glad you guys mentioned that. And I, something we probably should have said, cuz I think we just dove right into the work, is we are all uniquely, parents of children with disabilities ourselves. So number one, that is the number one thing that we bring to the table is that lived experience. And when you have that lived experience,it's much easier, for parents to have that trust in knowing that you went through the process, that empathy, that you've went through that process. So I just wanted to come back to that and let you know that I am also a parent of two children with disabilities. My oldest has ADHD and my youngest has autism. And Lisa, also, I, if we could probably go back around and let you know that Lisa, If you wanted to talk about your children too. Lisa Lutz: I have four kids. My oldest has ADHD and dyslexia. had to fight tooth and nail to get him the supports he needed. And all three of my boys have type one diabetes. So I have that medical piece.  Susan Stone: And my Interesting, so do you deal with the interplay between Section 5 0 4 of the Rehabilitation Act? The a d a and i d e A?  Lisa Lutz: Yes. Yes.  Susan Stone: Okay. A lot of people. that's a whole podcast on of itself, how those stages run together. Lisa Lutz: I do a lot of, explaining the difference that, Section 5 0 4 is not the ugly stepsister of the I IEP.  Kristina Supler: No, it's all about access, right?  Susan Stone: So yes, that is, that is another part of our work as well. And explaining letting them know the difference, helping them understand that, and that you're not gonna have a 5 0 4 and an ip, but,Yeah, and you may not, sometimes you want one over the other. Depends. correct. Love that. Marbella, can you, give us a little personal  Marbella Cáceres: Yes. I'm also a parent of three children. My oldest child is 28 now. But she was identify, and that is the unique expertise that I bring because 25 years ago I wasn't able to speak English. And I was the parent that was trying to look for assistance, but, no one opened the door other than the coalition to provide me with my rights in my native Spanish language.  So that is the expertise that I bring. I work with families. I have my child who 14, was diagnosed with a specific learning disability because they thought that was just the fact that she was learning English. And Oh my gosh, wow. And then my male child is gifted, so I have that expertise. Also to navigate that is another elephant in the room with a gifted education. And my little one was diagnosed when he was three with ADHD and is under the spectrum autism spectrum disorder. So like Tammie and Lisa, the experience is very personal. So it is the unique characteristic that sometimes bring us to the level of understanding parents, what they go through and how much they struggle.  Susan Stone: Yeah, and I just wanna point out that parents of what we call two E twice exceptional kids have their own struggles. Because a lot of schools, if a student is doing well and getting good grades, what's the problem? What's the problem? It's almost impossible. Those are our biggest fights with school are those two we kids. Yeah.  Tammie Sebastian: Yeah. we do. So we're all shaking our heads, because we all are relating because if we had even a penny for every time we heard about the grades. The grades, yes.  Susan Stone: The yes. But Johnny has no friends and can't sit still. Tammie Sebastian: Yeah. That there's no other impact but grades. And yeah, I think we've all experienced that. I could just tell you from personal experience, my daughter, unfortunately was identified very late as gifted in her 11th grade year. what? That's great. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeahinteresting interesting. It was in, I should, let me back up. It's not, she was gifted in one area. But the psychologist was so shocked to find out that nobody thought to give her this test and this assessment, and wanted to know why she wasn't in honors. And I said, they. her ADHD was so glaringly obvious that nobody could see that giftedness and they didn't test. So I think we've all experienced that at some level. But yeah, it's, the grades, the, our choice exceptional children. there's so much, we could probably do this podcast once a week with you. let's save our topics. Yeah. Susan Stone: So the parents who suspect their child has a learning disability, what would you describe as the first steps a parent should take? Kristina Supler: What does that look like?  Lisa Lutz: To request a meeting with the school to, if they feel like they have a learning disability, to say that you,want a me a team meeting to discuss what interventions and different supports have already been put in place. And then possibly getting a multi-factor evaluation. Susan Stone: Lisa, can I press you a little bit because I think a lot of parents don't know that even before the I E P process, in the planning meeting in the E T R, can you go through what an response to intervention is and what the tiers are? Because I think sometimes we overlook those options.  Lisa Lutz: We do. it's a three-tiered, system similar to the P B I S program. That the tier one is what everybody gets. It is the general education. The tier two is some when a student is struggling a little bit to see what other supports they might be able to put in place, whether it's math or ELA or what area that might be in, but adding additional supports, not in place of, but additional supports. And then the tier three is when you really need direct instruction. basically through an I E P.  Tammie Sebastian: And if I could just add, I don't know if you were gonna go to go any further with this, Susan. But a lot of times we see our children, being stuck in that R T I process. Oh yeah. I'm well aware. Sometimes for years. And one of the things that we always bring up is that the federal law does say that they cannot use response to intervention to delay an evaluation. And I think that's really important to talk about. And I always say, when we're supporting parents, I always say, that's great. Keep collecting your data. But let's go ahead and evaluate, keep, go, keep doing the response to intervention. But let's go ahead and evaluate.  Susan Stone: And I've had denials to evaluate because they're saying the response to the tier two works so well, why do you need us to evaluate? That's a goodie, huh?  Tammie Sebastian: Yeah, because,  Lisa Lutz: yeah, that's there, the response to intervention, you're not going to have those through high school. They're not going to be doing those response to interventions on that level as in first and second grade. And if they need that in order to be successful within that school class, in that school system, then they need to see what other supports and services that they're gonna need ongoing.  Marbella Cáceres: For my, because the approach that sometimes I have for my families, many of my families are immigrant families that come here to assist them that probably is a non-existent system in our countries. Okay. So try to understand how everything connects and how everything works and what the responsibilities for a school the schools are is a very Outside subjects for them. Even, some of the terms that we use in special education do not exist, in other languages. So trying to understand that. One way that I present it to my families is always, that is help that the schools use for struggling learners, for somebody that is having a hard time that, need that direct instruction, very specific guided instruction that has a beginning, that has a middle, that has an end. And also, that is followed with fidelity. So those are the things that sometimes I cannot bring down to my families for them to understand how those systems connect with each other. Everything has to be in harmony for the student to have gain and education. And then it's not, the academics is the social-emotional part of the student as well. Tammie Sebastian: Yeah, I, and I just, I wanted to just add one more thing to response to intervention. If a child's in response to intervention for three years, then I guess they're not responding to intervention. That's just, you think well, So that's just my simplistic,  Kristina Supler: I think that's well said. I'm wondering for a, again, a theme of this discussion has been parents having voice and empowering them. So when parents are navigating this process of obtaining services for their children, what are some of the key rights that parents should keep in mind and not lose sight of?  Tammie Sebastian: Honestly, every parent comes to us and we talk a lot about this amongst us as staff and as parents. Every parent comes to us at a different, where they might be in the process. It really depends. But one of the first things and I know we all have different ways of working parents. But I think collectively as an organization is the first thing we do is let that parent just release everything they need to release. When they come to us, they, it's, there's a lot going on. We just listen. Sometimes the first phone call, we're just listening to them. Maybe the first couple of phone calls. But then I think the key things that we want them to to know is we reallythey we really have to emphasize their rights and that is so overwhelming. That is such an overwhelming process. So we try to break it down. And we do a really good job of like, when we go through, And we start working through the process. Now, if they're a parent that's new in the process, obviously, we're gonna talk about whether or not, they, whether or not what, you know, what's been going on. And I think Susan had said, you know what? I, Susan and Lisa were talking about initially, what do you tell the parents to do? And so we talked through that process. A lot of data collection, making sure that they're collecting data. So documentation is huge. We tell parents, that's one of the ver the very first, simplest, simplistic things that they can do is make sure they have documentation and data collection. Because so many times parents are like, we've had these conversations. I've had these conversations. What was the response? I don't know. Or they told me they were gonna do this. And really, if we can get them anywhere, just say, collect that data from the beginning. and then again, just,  Susan Stone: and Tammie, I just wanna interrupt. You're assuming the parents have the executive function skills to do that?  Kristina Supler: Oh, great point, Susan. Because I often,  it's, yeah,  it's a big assumption that the parents are able to navigate this. Cuz this can be a very complex and overwhelming process.  Susan Stone: And a lot of disabilities are, you oftentimes we'll see a parent with a similar disability. And they can't get organized or they don't have the luxury of getting organized. I wanna many children, jobs, parents.  Yep. Yep. And to juggle Team meetings, by the way, are in the middle of the day. It's hard. I know districts will try to make it early or late at the end of the day. But the executive function skills you need when you have a student with issues, it can be quite overwhelming. Tammie Sebastian: That's right. And that's why I said we really have to meet the parent where they are at. And sometimes it is. and I know Marbella can speak to this too. Because she has a barrier with some of her families with the language. So that takes an extra layer of being able to develop. start starting that process. Susan Stone: and Marbella I just wanna ask, does what languages can be assisted by your organization? Obviously Spanish, but I know that we really live in a very multicultural world. So what other languages can you help  Marbella Cáceres: Any language. Any language that is spoken. Any parent. We obviously have multicultural information specialists that speak for Somali, French, Italian, spanish, Arabic and the ones that we don't have in the house that are working part-time or full-time, we contract with agencies across the state that can provide interpreter agencies that can provide. So no family that comes through our door is left with no help. And there are some times,many times we deal also with parents that are struggle with literacy that cannot read and write. Parents with special needs their themselves, like you were mentioning. Like Tammie said, we meet the family with the family is, for instance, my family. Sometimes, if you start talking to them right away about these are your rights, they're going to shut down. So we need sometimes to a, identify those barriers, respectfully, work with them as much as possible to overcome some of the challenges because parents need to be engaged, parents need to participate, and many limitations that they have is due to a school's not doing the right thing either. So it's okay, now you are aware that every single school district needs to have a language access plan. Now you know that. Now it's not a favor that they're doing to you by you requesting an interpreter. But you requesting this support for you to be engaged, for you to be involved, for you to be a fully participant in those meetings, you need to have this support. So the school is mandate to provide you that support. I So once they know that they are empowered, at least to start this conversations.  Susan Stone: Yeah. I wanna share a personal story. My grandparents. My grandmother especially spoke initially very little English. And my mother said that when she went to kindergarten they thought she was cognitively impaired because she really spoke yiddish, which is really interesting cuz it's an almost dead language now. But they viewed her as, Having special needs, but really it was because she was raised and English was not the primary language of the home. So I hear ya.  Tammie Sebastian: We've done a lot of work around that, bringing in Steven Gill,national speaker, and, talking about the over-identification. So especially when it comes to language. And whether or not that is you know, the process that they need to go through, whether or not that is a, true learning disability or language issue. And I just wanted to say something to come back really quick on this is, I wouldn't say a personal story, but an advocacy story. That when we work with parents and meeting them where they're at, I actually, in Cuyahoga County worked with a lot of families who, in underserved communities and, also coming from an underserved community myself. And mom was, or grandma I should say, I'm sorry, had full custody, was not able, very little reading, very little writing. But as we walked through the process every step of the way, even though she was not actually writing those things or,she was verbally telling me what to write, how. And she, and even in the places when we started, we had to go file a complaint. And even then I did not take over for her. I had her sitting with me and she was part of the process whether she was organizing papers, whether she wasjust helping,to tell the story along the way. She was part of writing that complaint and it empowered her so much that she's gone on to actually be a great collaborator with the district she's in because they held her in such high regards after she fought so hard for her grandson. So I. I think it's even more important to empower those parents who might not be,who might not have those executive, who might have a disability just as their child. I think even more and I think that we talked a little bit about that Marbella and I, about that empowering piece of just starting off with giving them where they're, or meeting them where they're at, giving them what they need to get onto the next piece. Kristina Supler: That's a really nice, uplifting story, Tammie, and listening to the three of you, you're a wealth of knowledge individually and even more so collectively. And so tell our listeners a little bit about how you collaborate with other organizations and agencies to advocate the needs for, the needs of children with disabilities at the state and national level. Tammie Sebastian: Ooh, so we got a really good one. I love a  Susan Stone: who, you got an we have a really big moment.  Tammie Sebastian: I know, and I hope parents and professionals will be excited as well. It's no secret. But the Ohio Coalition,was asked to partner with the Ohio Department of Education to look at our parent notice, which is our procedural safeguards. And our last parent notice was called a guide. And for those of you who really have been through the process of special education, they'll probably remember whose idea. And so the procedural safeguards have to have those, so those that's the parent notice. And it has to be provided to parents andat an initial evaluation,when they request, when they provide consent, pretty much every time they turn around. And I have to tell you, and we're trying to get away from the stigma or the joking of you could probably paint your house with these. Because it takes away the seriousness of how important this document is. And so we got have been given the opportunity to partner with the department and rewrite the parent notice. And, that started a year ago, that process. And there was rule revisions from the operating standards that needed to be changed every five years. The Ohio Operating Standards go through a rule revision process. And we, just completed that this week we will be presenting it at the state advisory panel for exceptional children. How exciting. Exciting. Yes. And then we are going to be doing a series of trainings and rollout. It's, it will roll out next year. But there's gonna be a lot coming with this to educate parents. We're very excited about that. I couldn't think of a better way to talk about a collaboration. And this is very, very important because we we really want to model for parents that you can honestly be in disagreement with your district and you're gonna have up and downs and there might be conflict. But you can still partner with them and make sure that the child is always the goal. And we've done that with the State Department of Education. So we hope we can model that to parents and districts alike to make sure that they're working through that process. I'm sorry, I got a little long-winded. I'm very excited about.  Susan Stone: I think we asked the right questions. I'm loving the responses. I'm gonna conclude with a final question to all three of you lovely ladies. What can Kristina and I as attorneys in this space, what's the most important thing you'd like to see from us?  Kristina Supler: Ooh. That's a good question. I like  it.  Susan Stone: I'm bringing it back to us, it is our podcast Tammie Sebastian: Oh we're thinking hard?  Kristina Supler: Yeah, I can tell. I can tell.  Lisa Lutz: I think one of the things that is overwhelming for parents when they feel like the council, when they see council is the monetary commitment. And a lot of my families do not have that. I don't know how you structure your financial pieces. But keeping that in mind and possibly having a plan and a program to help families that do not have that, those resources. Susan Stone: And that's a, that's, and I agree that is a serious issue that Kristina and talk about Of course. We are lawyers. That's our job. We're not funded by an agency. And I think the biggest challenge we have is that we have seen attorneys immediately move to filing a new process complaint because that's the only mechanism that they can think of that if they prevailed, they would get attorney's fees. I'm gonna be very, this is real talk. We won't do that we won't sue just for the sake of getting our fees. In fact, I refuse to do that because you couldn't that's not ethical to me.  Kristina Supler: and it's often not in, in the best interest of meeting and serving the needs of the child.  Susan Stone: So we just don't do that. Tammie Sebastian: we say, I'm so excited to hear that I, yes,  Susan Stone: So we are hourly. and we are sadly, we're not a resource for someone who cannot, a family that cannot pay our fee because of course, it's our job and that's how we get paid. On the other hand, we don't file lawsuits that don't have merit.It's a real issue. And I think that's what we try to do as a other solution, is that we work with on our own staff a parent advocate who's at a  lower rate than ours.  So we try to, what we call staff responsibly. The problem we have is a lot of times people want us.  Yeah, and it's a real challenge. It's, this is a real challenge and our hearts go out,  but Right. Tammie? Marbella, what are your thoughts?  Tammie Sebastian: If you don't mind, Marbella. Do you mind if I, because I can answer. Go ahead, Iggy. Back off of, yeah, I can piggyback off of that. I, It was interesting because, you had said at the beginning that we, did a, had a training years ago, and it ties into what you're saying. You're not filing for the for the sake of filing. It's whether it's, in the best interest of the family. I. that would go to say that you would love to be proactive in the process and and I think actually having us here today speaks volumes to that. Me, as the person who needs to bring in statewide presenters, I think I would love to bring you guys in, to do some statewide webinars. And maybe collaborate on some trainings. So that's,  Susan Stone: That would be our way of Wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. We would love to train people to advocate. It's a, if you's great. Thanks Tammie. For sure. Yeah.  This was incredible. Ladies, do you have any final parting words that you would wanna share? And we'll send you this podcast so you can share it around. Because I think we've touched on a lot of important issues.  Tammie Sebastian: We have. Marbella, did you wanna go since you were,  Marbella Cáceres: I just want to tell parents, if they're listening to this, that every day is a day of an opportunity to know a little bit more of what you know, what you knew the day before. Cause sometimes as parents will feel guilty of not knowing what is the right thing to do for our children. I tell my, my families, you know your child better. And we always repeat that anybody here you have the best interest in the child. And go by your gut instinct. As mothers we're very unique, situated. God give us an extra sixth sense to follow that direction. So I just wanna encourage parents, if they have questions, anything that we can do as an agency for them. We are here to support you and empower you every way possible.  Tammie Sebastian: And I would just say the same thing. I would just just go a little bit deeper and say, that if you think, like Marbella said, she said if you have that gut instinct to go on it, it never hurts to get the information. And sometimes it's just coming to get some information and empowering yourself. Opening yourselves up to that. And I also wanna put, if you don't mind our intake, number out there, so please, that way please. yeah, so it's 1-844-382-5452 and you will be connected with Martha Lausé. She is our intake referral specialist. And so anywhere in Ohio you're at, she'll be able you to direct you. Like Marbella said, we cover the entire state of Ohio. There's not a language out there. we don't turn anybody away that a language out there that we don't serve. And again, just thank you guys for giving us the opportunity to reach parents. Because that's always that's always the challenge is we get parents that come to us and say, I wish I would've known about you guys. And it's so hard for us to hear. So this helps us with our outreach. And then I'll hand it over to Lisa.  Susan Stone: And this is our podcast is our way of really talking about the issues that need to be talked about. Opening up up the idea of resources, opening up minds. And so for those parents who need free or and affordable resources. We are so grateful to the coalition. Lisa, what are your thoughts?  Lisa Lutz: I just wanna thank you for having us and,tell parents that w we're here, we're, we are here for you and, we're here for your child. We want the best for them. And, we will help you learn to be their best advocate.  Susan Stone: And, again, we would, Kristina and I would love to come in and train people to be self-advocates. So thank you for that idea.  Kristina Supler: This was a real treat. Thank you for taking time out to speak with us today. 

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Super are joined by Dr. Elizabeth Jeglic, an internationally renowned expert on sexual violence prevention, sexual grooming, child sexual abuse, and sexual assault.  Topics that they discuss are about protecting children from sexual abuse.  The conversation includes how to spot signs your child might be abused, the best ways to educate your children against sexual abuse, and simple strategies parents can use to monitor children's online activities. Links: Dr. Elizabeth Jeglic's Website Show Notes: (04:11)  Behaviors to look out for if a younger child has been abused. (04:48)  Shocking statistic about sexual abuse by strangers versus known persons (06:52)  Normal sexual exploration versus abuse. (08:55)  Signs a developmentally challenged child might be abused (10:44)  How to Investigate if You Suspect Your Child Might Be Abused (11:48)  A Parent's Best Strategy to Teach Kids About Protecting Themselves (12:40)  A Study on Why Sexual Predators Avoid Certain Children (13:04)  Why Some Kids Wait Until Adulthood To Report Abuse (13:28)  How Parents Teach Kids to Critically Think About Sexual Abuse (15:16)  Why Encouraging Early Detection and Reporting is Critical (16:27)  What Types of Kids are More Likely to Be Abused (17:24)  The Three Levels of Sexual Violence Prevention (18:38)  How Erin's Law Helps School Educate Kids on Sexual Abuse (19:29)  Does Speaking with Kids about Sex Encourage Sexual Behavior with Kids? (21:46)  Dangers of Online Chatting Apps and Kids (22:40)  A Simple Strategy Parents can Use to Monitor Kids Using Devices (24:54)  Rules Parents Can Put In Place to Protect Their Children (26:45)  How to Encourage Children to Share Mistakes They Might Make (27:15)  Patterns to Spot When It Comes to Grooming Children (28:31)  Recommendation for Parents to Take Action Today Transcript: Susan Stone: Kristina, it's really interesting to watch how our practice evolves. We talk a lot about how we started out in special education and then morphed into our college practice and our research misconduct. And for the past couple years we've been dipping our toes into representing victims of sexual abuse. And more recently young children who have been abused at school. Kristina Supler: It's really fascinating this area of law because so many people I think would say, what? What are defense attorneys doing here? But this is been a natural extension of what we've done across the country. And what is really particularly interesting about this work is just the idea of sort of parsing through, determining when children report allegations,what's real, what's play, what's bullying and abuse. And the more we dig in, the more you realize the complexity of the issues. And how many people out there are truly desperate for legal support.  Susan Stone: And what I really like is how the narrative has sh has shifted because when I was a little girl, a lot of sexual exploration, whichwhich today we would call abuse, was just tossed up in the air as playing house. And it wasn't just playing house. Young children don't know how to process sex, and that's why we really have to establish good boundaries to protect our children because what might seem like normal exploration might be very damaging to the actual child. And I think we're more willing to admit that it's damaging.  Guest today is really gonna help us parse through that a good Kristina word, parse.  Dr. Elizabeth Jeglic: Yes. What  Kristina Supler: My favorites. today we are joined by Dr. Elizabeth Jeglic, who's an internationally renowned expert on sexual violence prevention, sexual grooming, child sexual abuse, and sexual assault. She's a licensed clinical psychologist and professor of psychology at John J College of Criminal Justice, at City University of New York. She's also the author of Protecting Your Child from Sexual abuse, Sexual Grooming, and Sexual Violence, evidence-Based Policy and Prevention. Dr. Jeglic has published over 150 books, articles, chapters, you name it. She's written on it and is very busy. Busy. Busy.  Susan Stone: That takes time.  Kristina Supler: Yeah. Dr. Jeglic, welcome and we're happy to have you with us today. Dr. Elizabeth Jeglic: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me today.  Susan Stone: Yeah. This is gonna be a tough topic. One that I know you talk about all the time. Yes. But it's still an uncomfortable topic. So let's just, it is, get it out from the gate. What are the signs that a younger child, and I, when I say younger, maybe we should define what younger means. I think that's, think that's important. What is younger has been sexually abused. So could you help contour that out for us.  Dr. Elizabeth Jeglic: We generally use kind of prepubescent and post pubescent. And when we say children, we talk about, people under the age of 18. That being said, kids who are, developing language and they're still younger, like six, seven, will probably react differently than kids who are understanding things a little bit more. 9, 10, 11, 12, kind of, you know, as they're approaching middle school years.  It also depends on the developmental level of the child. You know, children who have developmental delays will, will behave differently to than, than kids, kids who do not. One of the hardest things is there is no, unique predictor of saying, you know, a child is behaving this way, therefore they have been sexually abused. You know, we do, the only concrete evidence is, you know, if is physically observed by somebody else. And that happens very rarely in cases of childhood sexual abuse. So we're often going based on the report of the child, which is lawyers, you know, can be very difficult to prove.  Some of the behaviors that we do see among younger children, are regressions in behavior. So, for example, you know, they may be potty trained and so they, they start wetting the bed. It may be that a child who has been previously more outgoing withdrawals and is now not sharing anything. You could see temper tantrums.  But again, this could be due to a large variety of issues physically. Obviously if there are any, physical signs of abuse, to the genital areas, that would be a strong indicator that something has happened.  You might see children not wanting to eat. They, and you also will see them protesting. For example, if the, generally an abuser is somebody known to the child and only 7% of the cases, is it a stranger. So we still tend to do stranger danger, right? We still are afraid of the stranger in the white van. But 93% of cases of sexual abuse are perpetrated by somebody known to the child. A third of them are family and relatives. The rest are kind of acquaintances. And a third of all, youth sexual abuse is perpetrated by another youth. These are all things that are really important when we're thinking about prevention. But going back to, to behavioral,manifestations is, Let's say the child, used to go to Uncle Joe's house and now the child is protesting, they don't wanna go. That might be another sign. Or they're, they're crying or they, they don't wanna talk about something. Or they have secrets that they didn't have before. So those are all, some behavioral manifestations. But again, it's hard to then say conclusively, that that a child has been abused. We also tend to see more sexualized behavior in play, in younger children who otherwise wouldn't be, exposed to that kind of thing. Susan Stone: I don't like secrets. I'm not a fan in a family.  Kristina Supler: no. that's that saying Secret secrets are no fun. Secret secrets. Hurt someone.  Susan Stone: Ooh, I like that. Where did you get that?  Kristina Supler: Everyone knows that. I don't know. Heard. I haven't heard that one. There you go. That's my, big peril of wisdom for you today. I love it. Dr. Jeglic, look, you mentioned a statistic that's really interesting. A third of, sexual abuse is perpetrated by other youth. And that just makes me think about the idea of when we were young, Susan, I think there were of different generations. There was still, kids played house. And you'd hear stories about sex sexual exploration Absolutely. Mm-hmm. While playing house. Do you think that at the time, Do you think general gener in terms of where we're at today, there's been a shift in we're not so willing to minimize bad behavior. Do you think there was more sexual abuse then versus now? Or we're just more attuned to everything?  Susan Stone: Well, and I wanna bootstrap on that g cuz you called it bad behavior. Is it bad behavior or is it normal behavior?  Dr. Elizabeth Jeglic: Sure. So a little bit of sexual exploration is normal, right? To see potentially what the opposite genders, genitalia look like. There's some curiosity there. I think that's part of, being a child. That being said, probably touching and doing anything more than that,could be worrisome and something that could be harmful to the child later on. We recently. study of sibling sexual abuse. And,we surveyed a large number of adults who reported being abused as children. And 5% of them reported sibling sexual abuse. And it starts out, you know, I think a lot of people minimize that kind of behavior because they think it is normal. But, unfortunately in, in many cases it becomes abusive. And so I think we need to talk to our children about and keep an eye on them. You know, Again, you don't wanna overreact. A little bit of curiosity is normal. It's hard to kind of, we, we've not done a really good job at understanding what is normal child curiosity and what is sexual abuse yet. I think that's something that we're still exploring. But I think one of the things that we've seenin, in recent years as we, we recognize the long-term consequences is that our boundaries have become a little firmer. Where previously it might have been like, oh, we minimized things like that. We're now recognizing that could be harmful. And so we are, we're intervening and setting those boundaries much more stringently.  Susan Stone: Boundaries keep you safe. I always say that. We always say that. We represent a large contingency of students who are either on the spectrum or have other comorbidities. And especially with young children who struggle with that receptive language or expressive language. It's hard enough just to communicate and have a conversation with those kids. They're so vulnerable. Absolutely. What would be the signs that a developmentally challenged child might be abused?  Kristina Supler: That's a great question.  Dr. Elizabeth Jeglic: It is. And I think it's still again, a challenge. I have my, a son as well who, has special needs. And it's something that I think about as a parent. And I think it's really, looking at the behavior and the acting out. As a parent of some, as a child with special needs, you recognize that there could be other, areas or reasons that, you know, a change in routine, things like that, that the child acts out. And so, youagain, it would be looking at if they don't wanna be around a certain person. Obviously if there's any physical signs of abuse.And again, regression, but it's very hard. If there's anything that you suspect, I think it's just you have to, as a parent, keep it monitoring and increased supervision and guardianship, about your children. Because they can't communicate and they can't tell you when somebody is hurting them in that way. The other issue that we see though is that kids who are on the spectrum tend to also engage in more sexually inappropriate behaviors as they grow up. Because, you know mm-hmm. kids have, as they're going through puberty, they do have sexual needs. But because they don't understand those boundaries, they might, not understand social cues it's clearly. If somebody says no or they're physically turning away, they may not recognize that as much.  And so that's a whole other issue that we're seeing young people on the spectrum who are being criminal justice involved when they're really just kind of, you know, not they're, they're, they're exploring their sexuality, but it's being interpreted as sexual abuse. Susan Stone: Well, when we have, cases where there has been abuse, we see either, cuz you mentioned this. Either more soiling or the opposite little and capsis the withholding of going to the bathroom. That makes sense to me because as you anyone knows, whoever potty trained a kid, potty training is about control. Yeah. And dominion over one's body. So what is the ultimate control? Either not going to the toilet and soiling and just saying, I'm not doing this or withholding. But how do you know whether and Caprices or extra soiling,obviously I think it always comes down to a control issue. But why? What would you do? Would you turn to a therapist, a pediatrician?  Dr. Elizabeth Jeglic: It's hard to tell. obviously you wanna work with your community. You wanna talk to teachers. You wanna think about what's going on in the child's life. There could be a lot of things that are going on, that could cause, those kinds of things. You wanna see, talk to your child,within their abilities. You can't conclude because a child, is experiencing a regression in bowel habits or they're, withholding their bowel movements that they have been sexually abused. But I think, you know, those are things that, as a parent you have warning signs and that could be something that you're investigating. Are there opportunities where somebody could have acc had access to him or her. Taking them to the pediatrician for an exam, if that's something that you suspect. I. Usually, there, there could be alternative explanations. But again, you wanna look at the, what's going on with the child as a whole. Kristina Supler: So you mentioned talking to your child about what's going on. How do you, how does a parent teach a child, whether prepubescent or post pubescent, how to protect themselves from abuse?  Dr. Elizabeth Jeglic: So this is something that I both as a sexual violence prevention researcher and as a parent to three kids think a lot about. And I think there, there's a somewhat of a controversy because this is really one of the only realms that we tell, put the onus on a abuse. Abuse prevention on the kids. And in many other areas, we as parents and guardians and institutions protect our children. But here we talk about, talking to our kids about protecting themselves. And I think it's a hard thing to, to wrap your head around. But the problem is that the majority of sexual abuse takes place in public when we as parents are not there. in private, sorry. And when we as parents are not there. And so we want our children to be aware of some of the signs. And this is where the sexual grooming, literature comes in. And recognizing when something doesn't feel right, what do they should do and what they can do to protect themselves.  And so I've always been a very, you know, and I think this is the best practice right now is, is talking to your children from an early age, like using correct names for genitals from the time they're born. There was one study that's really interesting that was done back in I think it was 95. And they survey individuals who perpetrated sex crimes against children about, how they selected children. And one of the things that came up is they said that if a kid knew their, the proper anatomical names from gen for their genitals, they stayed away from them. Because that meant that their parents were talking to them about these issues and they'd be more likely to be identified. And just having that vocabulary. Being able to communicate that can be a protective factor. But just really having open and honest conversations because I think a lot of sexuality is couched in shame. And so one of the reasons that kids report,say that they didn't report or that they were waiting until adulthood to report, which is very common, is because they felt guilt and shame about what had happened to them.  And so like really understanding that these are not shameful topics. It's not shameful to talk about healthy sexuality. This is a topic that is comfortable in our family. That if something is going wrong that you can share that with mum or dad. And we're gonna give you strategies. And then you practice strategies with them. You can, you give them hypothetical so they can start critically thinking if something like this happens, what would you do? And then the kid, your child gives you feedback and then you give them, corrective feedback. If it's not, maybe the the appropriate strategy, or if they could do something different. And you engage in conversation about those things. If they're, especially with adolescents, there are constantly things in the media, YouTube celebrities doing these things, different things or things happening at school. And you talk about them. How would you handle that situation? What would you do? If you were at a party and then somebody was, you said no and somebody continued to touch you, how would you handle that? And letting them know that you're always there and open for those conversations and available to help them should they get in a SI situation where they do need help.  Susan Stone: I like how you've normalized it. Taking the stigma away.  Kristina Supler: It's interesting that, no matter what the issue is in terms of life's challenges and what kids experience as they grow up, whether it's substance abuse, sex, Just relationships in general. So much of one's ability to navigate those situations and navigate conflict goes back to just having some discussion at home in, in conversations when one is young.  Susan Stone: Absolutely. If there has been abuse, how does abuse impact the child long term in terms of ability to form healthy partnerships? Parent well, move past the pain and suffering. Or is this something that will stain and mark the person for life? Dr. Elizabeth Jeglic: Well, the good news is that, and this is why we really encourage early detection and early reporting, is that the sooner the child and they get a, they get a positive response from those around them. If a child reports within the first year of the abuse happening and they get help and support, then the outcomes are fairly, positive, right? Like they will have a better outcome.  I think kids that hold it in and feel that guilt and shame, we know that the research suggests, unfortunately, that there might be psychological outcomes. There might be physical health problems. There might be economic problems. And so the more that we can do to support individuals who come forward and report abuse, and the earlier that we can identify that abuse is happening, the better for everybody. And the better the outcomes will be.  Susan Stone: Are certain, culture is more vulnerable to sexual abuse? I know that we did a podcast not too long ago with a colleague of ours and he was sexually abused by a priest. So would you say that it's more likely to occur in different settings? Or is it pretty even across the board, even across socioeconomic, even across ethnic differences? what did this study show?  Dr. Elizabeth Jeglic: So basically the study showed that kids who are vulnerable are more likely to be abused. And you can be vulnerable for a variety of reasons. The biggest of which is lacking adult supervision. So you can have two parents. But if those parents are constantly away, and you're, you're not supervised, then that is when you know the perpetrator swoops in. But we also know, and, and I think this is where we really as a society need to do more research, is that kids coming from racial and ethnic minority groups are at higher risk for sexual abuse. But we don't have a lot of data to suggest that. Because,we just haven't looked as broadly. We would know that kids who are special needs are at higher risk for sexual abuse. We know that L G B T Qia A kids, are particularly vulnerable, to, to sexual abuse. Because again, there's that, that wanting to connect and not feeling that you fit in sometimes during those really pivotal teenage years. And so that's when kids are like, vulnerable and, and people can, can swoop in and take advantage of that. And I think whenever you have a person who has power and control, like we know historically, obviously there was the abuse within religious communities. Or there are communities that are closed. And they don't talk about these things, we're hearing some of those more religiously closed communities where kids aren't even given language about sex. They're not taught about how to even talk about this. And they don't even necessarily know this is abnormal behavior because they don't know.  So it's,I think it's, that's why it's so important for us as a community if, when we think about sexual violence prevention, there's the individual level, which is the child. There's the family level, which is obviously, parents and supports. There's the community level, which is, you know, schools and other institutions that serve youth. And then there's the society as a whole. How do we approach these issues? What are, what do we value and how are we gonna address them? And so I think all of that comes into play. And when we have attitudes that are not supportive of children at any of those levels, it increases the risk for the child of being sexually abused.  Kristina Supler: So speaking of support at the community level, what should schools do to teach about sexual abuse? And I'm wondering whether, in your opinion, does general sex ed play a role in helping students recognize and navigate, potential abuse? Dr. Elizabeth Jeglic: That's a great question. You may be familiar with Erin's law, which was passed at the federal level in 2015. Mm-hmm. And then many of the states have subsequently passed that. So it was named after Erin Merrill, who is a young woman who had been sexually abused as a child. And she felt like she didn't really know what to do because nobody had taught her. And so,states now,required to pass their own legislation to provide education to the child, to the parents, and to, and teach and to the, and teachers about how to prevent sexual abuse. I think healthy sexual education is intertwined with that because again, as we talked about earlier, feeling shame about your body decreases a likelihood that you will come forward, that boundaries can be crossed more easily, and I think parents are scared to talk about healthy sexuality because they're afraid that it will promote the idea that there. They want their children to have sex earlier.  But the research actually shows the opposite. Kids who have body confidence and who feel comfortable within their own sexuality are actually more likely to postpone engaging in sexual intercourse, to engage in, you know, healthier relationships. And really thinking about how you approach the topic of sexuality, both, sexual healthy sexuality and sexual abuse is so important and it should really be a conversation that grows with your child, at the earliest stage is this is, these are your privates. Nobody talks about. Nobody touches your privates. But then, you know, as the kid gets older, a really understanding different levels.  Susan Stone: On a positive note. I know Kristina, you and I have talked a lot. I think that kids today are a lot more body positive. Absolutely. Oh my gosh. They are proud of their body no matter what shape or size that body, it looks like. They don't have the same ideas. I don't know, but I think I'm seeing a lot less anorexia and bulimia and eating disorders. I think kids who are on the lgbtq plus are much more proud of their sexual identity and willing to use the pronouns that fit them better. Mm-hmm. I think we've come a lot. We have a long way to go, but we really are making progress in this area. I Kristina Supler: think that's probably also though tied in part to communities and where we live. Still, I think it was a couple days ago I pulled up the New York Times app and reading all these stories about books being banned in various places. Yeah. And students not having access to books on lgbtq plus topics. So I agree that we've come a long way. Long way. Long way to go. Long way to go. Long way to go.  Susan Stone: So Professor Jeglic, how do you square teaching kids to be aware of sexual predators on the internet, such as through the O omegle chat line? And maybe you can tell our readers about a omegle. We're familiar with it because we've had some cases that deal with people having inappropriate and unlawful conversations on the internet with the fact that this generation hooks up by meeting through apps on their phone. the country, the first thing  Kristina Supler: you do on a Friday night is open up your app and swipe. Susan Stone: I always forget, swipe what? Swipe right. No, I get that confused.  Dr. Elizabeth Jeglic: Yeah. Yeah. I still am trying to learn and as a parent, I think one of the things is really to. get to know the apps that your kids are using and have them explain them to you. But omegle is one where you get matched up with a stranger and you're supposed to have conversations like that was the original goal. But as you can imagine, as many things on the internet have become, it becomes like a lot of people engaging in inappropriate sexual behavior. And it's gone to the point where, young people have accessed or been groomed online by, by meeting up with strangers and some of it's moderated. Kristina Supler: And I think, about a quarter of all adolescents or young adults these days have been sexually solicited online. That's a really scary statistic.  Dr. Elizabeth Jeglic: Yeah. And so it's really important for to, to extend any conversation that you have about sexual violence prevention to the online environment and talking about and our kids are online earlier and earlier, right? Like, so, you know, most, seven, eight. Nine year olds have their own phones. And as parents, that's one of the hardest things because it usurps our guardianship. So I can physically see where my kids are in the house. they can be talking to anybody in the world while they're on their phones. And so it's really important to, have parental protections when the kids are younger. They don't like that so much as they get older. But also have understandings that you're gonna be monitoring who they're chatting with and whatever else.  The other thing that I really strongly encourage parents to do is not allow phones in the bedrooms. Because we know that a lot of the online abuse happens when parents are asleep or when parents,  Susan Stone: I love that rule. No parents are not around. Phones in the bedroom.  Dr. Elizabeth Jeglic: Yeah. And you start that from the beginning because then they're accepting of that role, cuz that's just the way it is in your house. It also, we also know as an aside that if kids have phones, their sleep is p poor and sleep is related to depression and all sorts of other problems. but then  Susan Stone: with adults, by the way. Oh yeah, exactly. I've really had to put away that phone as I'm trying to wind down and go to bed. Read a book and I don't even mean a book on Kindle. Not that there's anything wrong with reading on Kindle. It's great. But I need to put my eyes. You want paper? I want the paper, and I wanna try to get to sleep with all that technology away from me. Yeah. So I think it's just good practice for all of us.  Dr. Elizabeth Jeglic: Yes. And also even like when they're using their devices, have them in a common area because then you can like one of the things that perpetrators often do is they'll say like, where are your parents? Are your parents around? Because they're trying to get children to send sex, child sex abuse material, take pictures of themselves. And your child is not gonna be doing that if. You know, a parent or a sibling or somebody else is around. And it's best to do this to have kids use internet enabled devices in an area where you can keep an eye on them.  Kristina Supler: In terms of children using the internet and the having contact with predators online, unfortunately. What do you think, or what are your suggestions on how parents should talk to their children about horrors of society, like child pornography? And the difference between sending a cute picture, smiling with your friend versus stuff that's contraband? I mean, how do parents have that conversation in an age appropriate way with a child.  Dr. Elizabeth Jeglic: Fortunately when the kids are younger, you have all the protections in place and you can put the parental controls and all, pretty much everything that your children are using at that age, the younger age, will not allow them to talk to strangers. That being said, having rules that you do not talk to strangers, you do not friend people who you do not know that are not at school. Even friends of friends, you know that an interesting study just came out by David Finkle, who, who's done a lot of very seminal research on childhood sexual abuse, and he found of the kids, like about 5% of young adults had been groomed online. And of those 80% knew the perpetrator in some way. It wasn't necessarily, their immediate friend, but it was like a friend of a friend. So like when you're on Snapchat or on Instagram, it's like, you know, an older brother or somebody else in the community. So that it's not completely a stranger. Like when we think about, you know, somebody you know off in another country accessing your child, it's people within your community that are peripheral to your child who then tried to access them through these online devices. So they don't feel as scary to the child.  But the other thing I talk about with my kids and that we, you know, kind of advocate for is really talking about not sending pictures to anybody you don't know. If somebody sends you a picture that you don't know, don't, don't send it back. Like my son was on some app and some, somebody sent a picture of a kid and I suspect it was an adult. And so that they it's like a foot in the door technique, right? So once you've sent one picture, it's a lot easier to then keep sending other pictures. And then the goal is to, for these perpetrators is to try to get child sex abuse materials. So to try to get the children to send inappropriate to pictures to them. The other issue I think is really just, again, using those scenarios. So what do you do if this happens? How would you handle it? Who would you tell? And letting them know that you're not gonna be angry with them. That you're not gonna be upset. Because I think a lot of kids get really scared. They cross that line. You know, they might have said something that was inappropriate and they're scared to tell you. And just let them know, you know, we all make mistakes. If you made a mistake, it's okay. Tell mommy. And we can help you cuz fortunately,they're a lot better at getting pictures off the internet now than they used to be. It's not a hundred percent. But the sooner that you are aware something happened that you can contact authorities and get something taken down. if something's being posted. Susan Stone: Is there a lot less personal grooming? Is it the grooming now that occurs more internet based? Or are we dealing with now two different types of grooming?  Dr. Elizabeth Jeglic: I think they're intertwined. As I said, because 80% of the people are known to the individual. I think they start online and then it might be a component of the grooming and then it goes offline. So I think that understanding and recognizing those red flag behaviors I think are really important. And having those open and honest conversations. With teens too, we're seeing like a lot of,internet, BA based sexual abuse with sexting, right? So teens might, mm-hmm. You know, send a consensual picture to a boyfriend or something like that. But then that gets forwarded on or it gets put and then, the relationship breaks up. And then there's sextortion and all sorts of other things. So I've always told my children, never send any pictures of yourself that are inappropriate. Because you don't know what people are gonna do with that picture. and it can be very harmful if that gets out.  Kristina Supler: Oh yes. We've got, we have many iterations of that factual scenario that you've just described.  Susan Stone: We get the call and listen to the tears. And it's really awful.  Kristina Supler: It is. Yeah. it's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking. Dr. Jeglic you've provided our listeners with so much information and food for thought today. We really appreciate your time and Thank you. We hope that parents will contemplate some of the topics we've talked about today and think about how to have some conversations with their own kids.  Dr. Elizabeth Jeglic: It's never too late. Like even though I, I recommend starting when they're early, it's never too late. Um, you know, it might be uncomfortable at first, but you know, it's one of those things. You just do it and it gets less com it gets more comfortable with time and it becomes more normative. So thank you so much for having me.  Kristina Supler: Thank you. Thank you. 

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Dr. Christine Whelan, and academic researcher in helping people find purpose and meaning in life.  Topics that they discuss are around a growing portion of young people not wanting to have kids.  The conversation includes how young women view having families versus having a career; Did Covid impact young adults on wanting to have kids; and how young adults can find purpose and meaning with or without having children. Links: Dr. Christine Whelan's Website Show Notes: (02:40)  The Ups and Downs of a Declining Birth Rate (03:43)  Historical look at Women in the Home (05:42)  How young women started looking at their careers versus family (07:42)  A different but accurate viewpoint of young girls looking at motherhood (09:26)  How women look at satisfaction from something meaningful and purposeful (11:34)  How Dr. Whelan balances work with raising a family (13:59)  Looking at the costs of raising a child (16:16)  Did Covid negatively impact young adults on wanting children? (17:58)  College students are becoming more socially awkward (20:04)  Is finding purpose in life done through having children? (21:12)  Are adults without kids happier?(22:36)  How one Harvard Study defines happiness (24:32)  How Dr. Whelan teaches kids about purpose and meaning (27:25)  Dr. Whelan's perspective on how her kids shaped her life after 25 years (28:34)  How parents can talk to their adult kids about parenting (31:45)  Teaching young adults who don't want kids about being pro-social (33:46)  Changing from young adults into older adults: the evolution of our nature (34:50)  A simple exercise for parents to use to help their kids find purpose and meaning Transcript: Susan Stone: Around a year ago, I started hearing high school and college kids tell me that they don't want kids. When the first college student told me this, I thought that the sentiment was particular to that student. However, since that time, I've been hearing this from a lot of different kids. Kristina, what the heck is growing up? I mean, I remember when I was a little girl, fantasizing, what? What am I gonna name my babies when I have them? And now nobody wants babies.  Kristina Supler: I don't know. It's a really interesting question, Susan, and I'm really excited to explore today. I understand wanting to put off having children to develop a career, to launch yourself professionally, but I'm still sort of struggling with hearing from young adults who just say, I, I don't wanna have a family at all. Susan Stone: This seems to become more prevalent since Covid. And I'm wondering if it's just a coincidence. I'm hoping our guest today is gonna help us explore why students don't want children. Is it new or has the thought only been? Has it thought been around for a long time and I we're just noticing? It might be new to us. Kristina Supler: We're pleased to be joined today by, Dr. Christine Whelan, a clinical professor in the School of Human Ecology at the University of Wisconsin Madison. She's the author of Why Smart Men Marry Smart Women, and Marry Smart, the Intelligent Woman's Guide to True Love. She also wrote another book called The Big Picture, A Guide to Finding Your Purpose in Life. And it's really a small steps program to help young adults figure out what matters and how to make it happen. And I just have to mention, there's one other piece in Dr. Whelan's that I love. And that is that at the age of eight, she hosted a nationally syndicated radio show called No Kidding, A Health Talk Show for Kids by kids.  Susan Stone: Today would be a podcast, not a radio show.  Kristina Supler: Welcome, Dr. Whelan. We're happy to have you with us.  Susan Stone: Oh, and I love that you wrote about purpose in life. I'm gonna be 57 and I keep telling everybody that after my last goes to college, I wanna find my purpose at life. But let's just kick this off. Am I right? Students don't wanna start a family. They don't dream about being mommy or daddy.  Dr. Christine Whelan: So the birth rate has been declining for, quite a while now. And, and in a sense we're seeing some positive trends. We are seeing fewer people getting pregnant accidentally. And, fewer unwanted pregnancies. We are seeing folks waiting longer to have kids perhaps until they are stably partnered and financially secure. So on the one hand, we, we can see some positive trends there. On the other hand, what we are seeing is that the United States is below replacement rate at this point. Which means that there are more people growing old and passing away than we are replacing with new babies born here. Now certainly you can have folks, who come to the United States by other means like immigration.  But when we look at changes around the decision to have or not to have a child, I think it's kind of of important to like sort of take a step back in history a little bit. Because part of my own history is the beginnings of this discussion.  So in, even as late as the 1960s, It was assumed that a man and a woman would get married and the woman would have children. And there was this assumption that you didn't really have a choice as a woman. You definitely were gonna have kids.  My mother was an epidemiologist and she looked at all sorts of demographic factors, including the choice to have children or not. And when she and my father were considering what to do, they actually went to all these child-free meetings. And so for the first couple years of their marriage, they decided they were not gonna have kids. And that this was really a radical idea in the mid seventies that a couple could get married and not have kids. So that, but then along the way, My mom thought, huh, maybe I should talk to other people who are making this decision. And she wrote a book called A Baby, Maybe A Guide to Making the Most Fateful Decision of Your Life. And she interviewed all these women who were saying, Gosh, should I have a child or should I not have a child? Which was a new topic in the 1970s. Crazy, by the end of the book, crazy. By the end of the book, She made a decision and and here you are. And here I am. So I'm, I am the Baby Maybe. But these Do have, you have siblings? I don't. I am the one and only,they obviously broke the mold when they made me. But Right. But the Baby Maybe thing is wild. so this question was coming up even the seventies.  Susan Stone: That's great. And I didn't realize that, and I wanted to comment that I read an article and I believe it was in the Times, don't quote me that China is actually rethinking. Yes, it's policy because for so long it was a one child rule and now the country is below replacement rate. Who would've thought? Yeah.  Kristina Supler: So what's the cause or the reason why young adults now are reevaluating. Life goal?  Susan Stone: Is it worse? is has something changed since the seventies?  Dr. Christine Whelan: Yeah. So first of all, in the seventies, the blame was placed on overachieving women who were not doing their responsible thing and staying home and having babies. And there was a lot of cultural commentary about these women who were getting too much education and wanted to work and weren't like, doing their part. How dare they. It became a sort of politically polarized issue. And,and what the role of woman was.  Then as we see, then as that began to fade, and especially as a nation, as we became,less religiously driven, and right, and more individually driven in our career choices. We then saw that in fact, those women who were highly educated and successful in their careers, we saw the tide turning. And it was those women who were in fact, more likely to get married, more likely to stay in stable relationships and more likely to have children. They were just doing so at a later age.  So in terms of lifetime childbearing, we were seeing women having children in their thirties and into their early forties, as a much more common occurrence rather than in their early twenties. And so that's what we began to seein the nineties and the early 2000. But unfortunately for, for those who are hoping for more of a replacement rate in the United States as that age of first birth kept getting pushed back and further back, yes, there were, there were advances in terms of in vitro fertilization and other treatments to help women have children, past normal childbearing age. But we also saw an increasing number of people saying, That ship has sailed. I have chosen to do different things in my life.  Susan Stone: So what's going on now? Why are younger kids, high school kids saying, I, I don't wanna do this. What's making them  Dr. Christine Whelan: think that way? A couple things. First, they watch their parents and how their parents are struggling. At one point, one of my kids, oh my God, mommy, that makes sense, mommy. It doesn't look like it's very much fun to be a mommy. You have to work, you have to do, all this stuff at home. You never rest or get a, abreak. This doesn't look like this is that much fun. And the mother in me, just cringes and says, oh no Ma, now I have to, on top of everything else I have to do now, apparently I have to make mothering look more fun. Otherwise I'm gonna raise a generation of kids who don't wanna do this. It. so I think first of all, kids are seeing the challenge of working motherhood. Second, we are really being raised in a very individualistic culture. And when it's all about me, me, me, and what makes me happy, parenting by its very nature, is a sacrifice, right? It is a giving of yourself. It is a generative thing, and that's not something our culture talks about. Kristina Supler: Totally agree. It's the ultimate act of selflessness in many ways because your life becomes about others.  Susan Stone: I, it's interesting because I am your statistic. I had my first child in 97 and my last child in the early two thousands, and I had three did my best to get them done with, but I will say age makes a difference. It's hard getting up the older you are in the middle of the night with that crying baby. And then you never sleep. Let's be real. You never sleep the same. I still am up at three in the morning thinking about my daughter who's 25. And so how do we present it in a way that's joyous? I think the joy comes later. Don't you think?  Dr. Christine Whelan: That is, yes. That is very true. And so in the academic world, we would say that it really, what you're talking about is Eudaimonic happiness. That's what Aristotle called the idea of,satisfaction from putting your all into something that is very meaningful and purposeful for you. And Eudaimonic happiness is really wonderful. Hedonic, happiness is happiness in the moment. And, I think we really need both. So what these young adults who are saying, I don't wanna have kids, what they're seeing is decades without any hedonic happiness in front of them. And, and so Eudaimonic happiness out in the distance doesn't seem quite as appealing as giving up all of your hedonic happiness right now. If that's the way society frames parenting.  And the reason I, in part, we frame it that way, is because we have this idea that you have to be a superwoman. You have to do it all. So you have to have a gr big career, and you have to, somehow be with your children all the time and leaving women feeling like they're failing all the time.  And interestingly enough, leaving the kids feeling like they are to blame for their parents overwhelm and discontent. And so then we wonder why kids don't wanna have kids themselves.  Kristina Supler: You have my thinking about the idea of it all. In essence, it all starts at home. I mean, when Susan and I are representing students across the country dealing with various form, Issues that are essentially crisis. So often the root of an issue, you know, you can trace it back to various family dynamics. And I'm just wrestling with this idea of children, seeing their mothers, struggle to balance it all and achieve professional goals. And it is a struggle.  But then also this idea and perhaps that, makes them not want to have kids. But then also you have to show, it's important to show your kids' happiness and joy. And I think it's important to, to have kids see both of that. But it sounds like there, there's risk in having your kids see moms struggle because it's hard to have it all and do it all. what are your thoughts on what the right balance is there? Dr. Christine Whelan: Man, I would love to know what the right balance is because I'm trying to figure it out on a day-to-day basis. I, there's that old adage that, you have to fill your own bucket before you can, before you can give to others. And so what I decided for myself is that I would not be who I am unless I did paid work of some sort At the same time, I also realized that I can't be who I am if I didn't spend a big chunk of my time with my family and, and mothering and engaged in all of the childcare activities. So what that meant is that I had to kindpull back in both and try to do a little bit in different, you know, at different times. Now it's not that I do 50 50 on a daily basis. There are some days where tomorrow I'm gonna be gone all day giving a guest lecture at Emory Law School. I will be gone all day and I won't see the kids in the morning when they get up or at night when they go to sleep. That's not a balanced day in terms of mothering. That's a day dedicated to my career. Sure.  But then there are plenty of other days where on Friday they're gonna be off school. I'm gonna be with them all day long. And so I think of finding the balance that works for you is important and also important for the next generation to see that there are choices that they can make to do things either differently than what I did, or differently than some of the other cultural messages that they're getting. Optionality is really what everybody wants, and yet not having, a clear path also stresses people out. So it's a double-edged sword.  Susan Stone: What is also stressful is just cost of raising children. Ugh, so expensive, and I'm not talking about the tennis lessons and the high price colleges. I'm talking basic copays for the pediatrician. They need medicine, all of it. Therapy, clothes, some people have kids that I have a really good friend, her son, she blinks and he needs new pants. And not everybody can afford that.  So the stress of economics has got to impact that choice. And then I hear students say, there's only so much to go around and I want that money that I make for me, is that selfish or realistic? Dr. Christine Whelan: I think it's quite realistic. So these students are also gonna be coming out with a whole lot of debt. So how do you think about adding another dependent person to your budget when you yourself are very much in the red?  My grandmother used to say that every baby comes with its own loaf of bread. And I, that was such a sweet expression and so not true. I was trying to sake,  Kristina Supler: I was pondering that. I'm like, wait, what?  Susan Stone: No. Even formulas expensive. Exactly.  Dr. Christine Whelan: Even formula diaper first. Sure. And and they're, and while there are ways to keep the costs down and to do sharing economy things. it's very difficult. The other thing that, that, by the way that is difficult is childcare. And because we have a generation of folks who, who are pursuing their careers, we also don't have a bunch of grandparents who are interested in giving free childcare to their grandchildren. And so that because they can't afford to do so. Susan Stone: Yeah, that's really interesting. I remember that when my daughter was in elementary school, that she had a project called Notable Woman, and she picked Indra Nui, who was the CEO of Pepsi. And we went to visit her. She shared that her dream would be that eventually when her children had children, she would give up this role of running a major conglomeration and help raise her kids because that was her culture that her parents helped her. Now, I was a single mother and boy, I could have used that help.  Kristina Supler: Oh yeah. you think about single parents and all the complicated dynamics that bear on child raising today. And,I'm just thinking to the comment about food and formula. And it popped into my head not that long ago, there was the formula shortage. Iwho would've predicted that? The stress of, oh my gosh, I literally don't know if I can give my child a bottle in two hours.  Susan Stone: That's scary. But do you think the pandemic and that the fact that more people can work from home, will that encourage maybe some rethinking of this issue? Dr. Christine Whelan: No. And in fact, I think it actually might make it worse. So what we're also seeing is young adults having first sexual intercourse at later ages. And while that is good from a disease and pregnancy, un unplanned pregnancy perspective, one of the things that we're really seeing is that the reason why young adults are not being physically intimate with each other is because they're not physically together. Yeah, a lot. And wow. You ha Yeah. So then you have a generation that's increasingly physically isolated. And the more that we physically isolate people, the less likely it is that you're going to create a family. As we delay marriage, as we delay,these kind of,these kinds of intimate partner bonds then obviously we're going to be delaying having children and, and making babies the normal way, right? So I worry that the pandemic actually is going to make things worse rather than better. And by the way, for all the moms out there who tried to raise their young children, during the, that, those early days of the lockdown, which is, youjust three years ago, we remember what it was like to try to do our jobs and have a toddler or two or three running around. So no work from home is not easier with kids.  Kristina Supler: I read some media interview you did where you were speaking about th this issue and the fact that there was no pandemic baby boom. Eventually, hopefully, fingers crossed when we all come back together at some point and we're not so in this idea of working from home, although I'm assuming we will come back together, perhaps we won't. Do you expect though, eventually to see birth rates climb again?  Dr. Christine Whelan: I worry about this a little bit because with my college students, they are really still socially awkward. They don't have the same, social skills or even really the desire to hang out with other people that I would have expected young adults to have at this age. And if we see a shift more toward virtual worlds, more toward virtual interactions, then just basic, basic, physiology. If you're not there together, it's gonna be really hard to, to make babies and raise them in co environment. Susan Stone: I wanna shift a little bit because you've written a lot about finding your purpose in life. And I come from the philosophical belief that we're all here to correct our character defects through finding meaning and that we all have a unique gift.  But I gotta tell you, nothing holds a mirror to your face as to your character defects or your strengths then having children. When you see that kid, I both good and bad. You know my daughter, I love to cook and I watched my youngest this weekend create a homemade focaccia. And she's mom, I just wanna be a good cook like you are. You always make such beautiful dishes. You feel pride.  Conversely, I have a spitfire temper, and when I see my kids lose their temper, I know exactly where that came from and who's to blame? But it gives me an opportunity to work on myself and say, ouch, I don't like that character trait. This is something that I need to work on to be a better person. And the more I model the mistakes I've made and how I correct them, I feel like I'm fulfilling my purpose through children. What are your thoughts on that?  Dr. Christine Whelan: That is very beautiful and very, a very evolved way of thinking about it. It's not the way that everybody else often thinks about it. If we, if the other way you could be thinking about it is when you see your children acting in ways that you don't like about yourself, a lot of people lash out at their kids. And are, and are particularly angry at their kids because they are embarrassed that is also their behavior. And so if you can do some really good work around it. And grow from it. That would be ideal. But not everybody is there. I, the joke that I make with my kids is that I will know that I have been a good mother if they are in therapy for different problems than what I am in therapy for.  Susan Stone: yes. Kristina Supler: That, that is very funny. That is very funny. Let's be real. We're talking, having kids is not a walk in the park. It can, it's high highs and low lows. And teens in particular can really be particularly frustrating and challenging and also awesome. But are people, what does the research say? Are adults without kids happier?  Dr. Christine Whelan: Yeah. So this is the, this is the tricky bit. is that, At the end of life, whether you have had a child or not doesn't really matter in terms of your happiness. It's not that adults with without kids are happier. It's that, and or that people with kids are less happy. It's that when I don't know any mother who look or father who looks at their children and says, I wish I had not had these children. We don't as humans, tend to have that feeling. So we make a choice one way or the other and we build a life around it.  And and it's one of life's, my, this was one of my mother's wonderful lines. She would say, it's just one of life's many options. And,and she, what she meant there was that we all have a lot of choices. But also there is that, that underpinning of that which is, and then those choices have consequences.  So if you are the type of person that does not wanna have children, and you know that about yourself, don't have children. Don't do it because somebody else wants you to or you think you should. And if you are the type of person that wants to have children and that, that really craves that, then don't worry about whether you're gonna be able to balance it all. Have the children. Create the family. Create the love. and you will. generations of us have figured it out. Live your life. I'm just gonna say it's live  Kristina Supler: your life it's what we tell our kids. Peer pressure. Don't succumb to it. You do you,  Dr. Christine Whelan: whatever it is, and  Susan Stone: whatever it is. If you want a baby, have a baby. If you don't You will find meaning in other ways. But we know from Harvard's happiness study And I love this study That the quality of relationships is what determines happiness. Absolutely. Yeah. it's not quantity. It is quality.  Dr. Christine Whelan: And you can have those quality relatations outside of your nuclear family. Those quality relationships very much can come from friends, from extended family. But often those quality relationships come in your intimate family from children, from partners. And that of course is the line with Ain't. If Mama ain't happy ain't nobody happy or you are only as happy as your least happy child.  Susan Stone: Yeah, I will say that I still remember that moment than when I had my first daughter. And Alex, if you're listening to this, it's about you. And I will say, when they handed that baby to me, it really was like a holiday Hollywood moment. I, I fell in love with her in a way that I have never experienced before. And yes, I fell in love with the siblings too. And you never did. You only  Kristina Supler: had  Susan Stone: that feeling once. Only once. No, but you do. When they hand you that baby. There is that euphoria that you get that depth of love. It's just different from other love. Kristina Supler: I'm gonna challenge you on that. That I think that is, I don't know that all women feel that. I think a lot of women hold that baby and they. Oh God, what now? or probably done.  Susan Stone: Yeah. that's a good point. Not ever. Some people feel depressed or overwhelmed.  Dr. Christine Whelan: Absolutely. And you can also have all of those feelings all at once. And you can have the love and the overwhelm and the terror. And those feelings will last throughout the lifetime. You know, we're all an experiment of one, right? This is, there is no one size fits all approach to this, which is why I really like teaching young adults about the idea of purpose and meaning. Because it's about asking questions of what are your core values? What are your strengths? Who do you wanna positively impact? What are the fears and anxieties that come up for you in a day? in a, when you are trying to tackle a big project or make a decision? And then how can you make purpose-based commitments one step at a time to do the things that matter to you? And what I, when I break it down for young adults like that, it really helps, I think, because these are huge topics that might otherwise emotionally paralyze us. And breaking it down hopefully demystifies it and allows people to make a decision that's right for them.  Kristina Supler: In that. In the introduction, we mentioned that you are a mother of five. And so if I may ask you personal question, tell our listeners what inspired you to have such a large family. Dr. Christine Whelan: I have a Brady Bunch family. I have my, okay, so we'll start with my, so I have a seven, nine, and 11 year old who are my biological kids. And then I am stepmom to twin 14 and a half year old boys. and. It is. and of course, because we had to be a Brady Bunch family, we also added a dog so who is a girl.  So now we have three girls and three boys, and we can do the whole squares. And we have a fabulous household manager who keeps me sane. So she's our Alice. and we have the full, you  Kristina Supler: really are the Brady Bunch. We,  Dr. Christine Whelan: we really are. Now. That's funny. The Brady Bunch Square thing going, and it's total chaos. I was an only child. I grew up in an apartment in Manhattan. I am now the mother of five and a dog with a minivan in the Midwest. And I often have those moments of, I have no idea how this happened. But yet I do because, the, I love the the energy, the chaos, the the joy and the laughter. And I, it is not at all what I expected. My life did not at all turn out how I expected. And yet it is so beautiful as a,as a teaching tool for me in terms of letting go of my otherwise type a personality and control freakness and wanting to everything to be just so, because do you know what, with five kids and a dog, It can't be perfect. It's not gonna happen.  Susan Stone: It depends how we define perfect. What is perfect for you might be just getting dinner on the table and having that really good conversation come up. I  Kristina Supler: agree. That's a good point. Iperfect is obviously very, it can be different for everyone and so  Dr. Christine Whelan: Absolutely. Now my 20 year old self would have defined perfect, in a much more organized and precise fashion. My 45 year old self would wanna give my 20 year old self a hug and say, it's gonna be a wild ride, honey. But, but you're gonna come out the other end of it with a lot of self-growth. So really to your point that children are wonderful teachers and mirrors into yourself and where you need to grow. Now, thinking about this from the kids' perspective, you also wanna make sure that you are supporting them in their own individual journeys. So that they can be a mirror to themselves and make good choices about their own future.  Susan Stone: Is it even worth having a conversation with young adults when they say they do or don't want kids? Because part of me thinks you just don't know until you are at that point in life. I remember in my early twenties, cuz I was, I waited till after law school to think about it. I wouldn't even really envision what that meant. And then all of a sudden, when you want that baby, it's like you see babies everywhere. Dr. Christine Whelan: pregnant women everywhere, and that's all you see.know, when I hear a young adult say, I do or don't want children, is it something that you just let them articulate and go? Mm-hmm. Because you and I know Man plans, God laughs and you just don't know until you know. Yes. And it's worthwhile to ask those questions because they can get at deeper issues. So if somebody says, I definitely don't wanna have children. Then explore why. What is it? Do you want to build a particular kind of life for yourself? And if you do, let's take some steps toward building a life that is going to fulfill those needs and those values, and use those gifts. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're not gonna have children along the way. If I could go back to myself with a, with an infant, the first time round, I would,would wanna remind myself and all young mothers that you can strap the baby to you and go do just about whatever you want. And, and that's a really cool, so by the time I had my youngest, he was just on me and I was off and gone. And it was great. Because you have more confidence of how the child can also incorporate into the life that you wanna have. But when you're young, you see it as an either or. and that kind of dichotomy scares people.  Kristina Supler: That's funny that you, you say that because I know with my first, there were times I was literally afraid to leave the house. Like I loved her so much. But I was like, okay, how am I gonna go to the grocery store with the baby, get the food I need, get it all in the car. And it just felt incredibly overwhelming. And of course, obviously you figure it out, but, you know that, that idea of strap the baby on you, go wherever, do whatever is, for first time mothers or just some mothers in general? it's, they just can't get there and they need a lot of support and encouragement to have that realization.  Susan Stone: I do have to ask a value-based question. I agree. Not everybody's meant to be a parent. And that's a perfectly wonderful choice for someone who has a vision of their life being different. Here's where I'm struggling. And maybe even being judgy. I'm gonna get a little judgey here. What be the first time? I struggle with this though. Maybe, Kristine, you're gonna give me a little soul correction. I don't have a problem with someone saying to me, I don't want children because I wanna pursue my passion for art, or I don't like children. Where it bites me a little bit is when I hear. It out of complete selfishness. Like I want all the money for me, me, me, me, me, me. It's not like I wanna volunteer or I wanna go into service, or I wanna go into government, or I wanna run for political office, or I wanna pursue a passion. But are we devolving as a sathi, as a society where it's just the hedonistic value? And should that be corrected when you hear it out of a teenager's mouth? Do you as a parent have to say, It's not always all about you. Yes. And why is that desirable?  Dr. Christine Whelan: Yes. And the answer doesn't have to then be kids. But I teach lots about agree, the importance of pro-social behavior. Pro-social behavior means doing something that benefits someone else. And the research is absolutely clear that we have, when we use our limited resources of time, of energy, of money in a way that is pro-social, that involves others and helps others, we as individuals are much happier.  And so to the person who says, no, I don't wanna have kids. I wanna spend all that money on me. That kind of self-focus is not a recipe for happiness. However, a when this is a person who potentially was raised not having the things that they wanted because they could see how much their parents struggled to put food on the table to make sure that their kids could get stuff, they might not want to repeat that.  And at this stage of their lives. So then maybe focusing on the idea of, then great, you're gonna have this extra money. What pro-social things are you going to do with it so that you can use your gifts in keeping with your values to make a positive impact on the lives of others? That's purposeful and doesn't have to involve kids. Kristina Supler: For what it's worth. Susan, I don't think that was a judgey question slash comment. I think it was a very good one.  Susan Stone: Thank you. Thank you. I, and I really love the way you frame that because it's okay to say I don't, like children. I don't want that path. But how are you gonna give back? What is gonna be your contribution? Dr. Christine Whelan: The one other thing that I will say though is that there are periods in your life that evolutionarily, and by their very nature and structure, are going to be more selfish than others. And that's okay.  So young adulthood is a fairly solipsistic selfish time of life. It should be that way because you are investing in yourself. You are, you're, do in your own education, in your future career. You're making decisions. You've gotta focus inward on you during that period. That's understandable.   As we get older, we tend to be more generative. We tend to wanna help other people more. We tend to wanna share our wisdom. And there is a sort of an arc and various religions and cultures have seen this,that, youthere is a, there's a time in life where you are focused on yourself a time in life when you're focused on others. And then potentially a time in life when you're focused on thinking and legacy. And, and then what comes next? If you have a selfish teenager, if you have a selfish, kid in their early twenties, yes talking about pro-social behavior is important. You can also put in that kind of pro-social behavior will make you as an individual happier if that's the language that they best understand. Kristina Supler: Last question, Dr. Whelan. What advice should parents give to their own children to help them find their purpose as they look to the future?  Susan Stone: She's asking for a friend. For a friend.  Kristina Supler: Asking for a friend. That's right. not my own two children. No.  Dr. Christine Whelan: listen, I do this with my own kids too, so I have this purpose statement exercise. It's free, it's on my website, on christine wheeland.com. You can download it.  But the but what I have my kids talk about, with me, and then for themselves is those questions of what do I value? What are the strengths I wanna use and who do I wanna help? And then what are the things I am anxious about and what are the goals that I can set? And these are five questions that are in this madlibs purpose statement.  I do it myself. And then I share mine with my kids. The teenagers absolutely roll their eyes. I'm not gonna sugarcoat that one. They think this is ridiculous. However, If I model purposeful behavior and I talk about how even by making a baked potato bar for the family, I am living on purpose and why that is using my values, why that's using my gifts and keeping with my values and how I'm positively impacting them. Honestly, you gotta model the behavior that you're seeking. And so we talk a lot about this, as a family. And it might be worth having a conversation about your family purpose statement for,for the week if you do a Sunday meeting or a,or a summer purpose statement and any way that you can get this idea of values, strengths and positive impact while acknowledging fears and anxieties, cuz that's a really important this. Otherwise this gets, of sugar coated too much. Acknowledging those fears and anxieties and then saying, you know what? I'm gonna do these things and I'm gonna feel good about myself when I do these. Have that conversation. See how it goes.  Susan Stone: I'm just gonna make a wish. I don't know. Is your mom still around?  Dr. Christine Whelan: She unfortunately passed away nine years ago.  Susan Stone: I am so sorry. Well, I won't get my wish because my wish would've been for Kristina and I could to create a trip and sit with a bottle of wine with you and your mom. So since I can't get your mom, I'm grateful that we could talk about your mom and hopefully one day I can have that wish and meet you in the flesh because I would love to sit down with some rosé with you and continue this conversation offline.  Dr. Christine Whelan: I would love that too. And my eldest daughter, Eleanor, who's nearly 12, would love to join in as well, because while I had my first radio show, She started, her Health is Everything, No Kidding podcast when she was eight and she never liked  Kristina Supler: her mother  Dr. Christine Whelan: like daughter. Oh, and mother, like daughter. She has lots of ideas on this topic as well.  Susan Stone: Let us know if she would like to be on our podcast because we had students talk to us.  Dr. Christine Whelan: I love it. Yes. I'll send you, I'll send you the link to her podcast and Okay. Do  Kristina Supler: well listen to that too. Thank you so much for joining us today. It was a real treat speaking with you and I'm, our listeners enjoyed it as well.  Susan Stone: This was a fun one. Thank you.  Dr. Christine Whelan: Thank you. 

Description: In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by fellow attorney Brian Kent, a 15-year expert in seeing civil damages for victims of sexual abuse and assault.  Topics that they discuss are related to sexual abuse and assault in students.  The conversation includes how trauma can be used to serve others, the bodies reaction to assault when there's no physical evidence, and what roles institutions play in being held responsible in assault cases. Links: Brian Kent's Profile Show Notes: (03:14)  Why Brian Kent teams up with attorneys from across the US (04:43)  How Brian channeled his own tragedy into helping other victims of sexual absue (08:20)  How people can use trauma to serve others (10:47)  A Simple way to explaining emotional injury to a jury (11:49)  The physical impact emotional injury has on the brain (Neurobiology of Trauma) (15:27)  Can you spot trauma or assault if there's no physical evidence? (16:24)  The importance of having open communication with your children about abuse (18:41)  How Susan builds empowers her kids to speak up (22:43)  What role do institutions play in protecting students (25:23)  Are high schools worse for hazing than colleges? (28:33)  How cancel culture damages students in school (29:42)  How not taking action can make organizations legally responsible for assault (33:07)  Under what conditions can victims can seek damages perpetrators (35:39)  How helping people with the civil process helps the healing process (37:35)  Why sexual predators commit acts of assault Transcript: Susan Stone: So Kristina, we have a really bizarre practice.  Kristina Supler: Why's that?  Susan Stone: I'm going to tell you because we don't do just one thing. You can't put us in a box. It's like that line from dirty dancing. Nobody puts baby in a corner.  When I think about what we deal with on a given day, we're everywhere.  Kristina Supler: Well, and I think that just like you can't put our practice in a box, you really can't put our clients in a box either. Because we're dealing with so many different types of legal issues and people all over the country, students with problems that they want help with.  Susan Stone: Yeah. And I, I noticed that starting a couple years ago, our first sadly wrongful death case came to us. And then we started working in a couple personal injury cases and that's forced us to grow into an area that I would've never identified as.  Kristina Supler: Yeah, and it's interesting too, I mean, we're so passionate about getting the best result possible for our clients. We team up with so many different professionals all over the country.  Susan Stone: What's interesting about our client or our podcast today is that we're actually having someone that we worked with on a case and hope to work with in the future. And a lot of people would be like, why are you putting another lawyer on your podcast? I mean, aren't you worried about drawing business away from yourself? I mean, that's the question.  Kristina Supler: Yeah, and I think that the answer is no. We're not afraid of that. We are passionate about what we do, and we wanna get, again, the best result possible. So we're really pleased to be joined today by Brian Kent. Brian is a nationally recognized advocate for victims' rights. Brian has dedicated his career to seeking justice for survivors of abuse, assault, and exploitation.  As a former sex crimes prosecutor in Philadelphia, Brian's an advocate for justice for all crime victims. He's handled many high profile cases, including representing survivors of Jerry Sandusky, boarding and school boarding, school abuse, and also clergy abuse.  Now, Susan alluded to not too long ago, we paired up with Brian on a really interesting case and resolved it quite favorably. Welcome, Brian.  Brian Kent: Thank you both.  Susan Stone: Great, great meeting with you. And it was great working with you and I think what made the case be it was more enjoyable to work on together is that we saw, sort of saw the case from our lens of what we do representing students involved in disciplinary processes at school. And the team you gave us, we worked a lot with your colleague Mike, sought from a personal injury perspective, is that typical for you to pair with other lawyers?  Brian Kent: Yeah, I think our practice You know, since day one, given our specialization in these types of cases, we would get a lot of calls from folks around the country to come in and, and help with, uh, either a sexual abuse, assault, or trafficking case. And I think given our background of most of us, if not all of us, on the crime victim team being former prosecutors there's oftentimes, as you both know, an ongoing criminal case. And that's an important aspect of sort of healing for the survivors in these cases. And being able to have a former prosecutor who knows the ins and outs of that process can talk to the detective or the da. And then also handle the civil case was something unique and I think continues to be unique for our clients. I'd say the large majority of our cases are cases where we have been asked to Come in with, in like a co-counsel situation like we all had and and help out or us, getting a case in state Ohio and calling you and saying, Hey, let's team up. I think, and I get a lot of enjoyment from those relationships as well and, and a lot and I learn a lot too. Our practice is really built on that sort of bedrock.  Kristina Supler: Brian, I'd like to talk for a moment about something personal when Susan and I were reading about your background and preparing to talk with you a bit today. We read that you are a survivor of sexual abuse, so can you tell us how that has led to your work today?  Brian Kent: Yeah, sure. So I was, I went to Catholic grade school in Catholic high school in the Philadelphia area. Was an altar boy. Um, we had a abusive priest that came in, was head of the altar boys when I was in fourth and fifth grade. And then was shipped out two years later. . Why we don't know yet but hopefully someday will. But and he had abused me multiple times in the church area or in our church, oh my god, school, of like together. And in the rectory area. And I would say, you know, I always I talk about like. I would say subconsciously probably directed my career, but I was never. Like definitively, like this is what I'm gonna do. But when I went to the DA's office, I started prosecuting sex crimes and specifically child sexual abuse cases. And throughout my career, I think it's helped me tremendously, not just from a standpoint of being able to communicate with my clients and like truly understand how difficult it is not just to. say, Hey, I'm gonna file a lawsuit. But just to talk to anybody about it, I mean, I still have difficulty talking about it. And it took me a very long time to even talk about it in the first place. So, having that connection with survivors that come in to talk to me about their cases I think is incredibly important for them. Um, it's also important for me that they know You know that I truly do understand somewhat of what they have gone through and what they're going through. And I also think, like from a perspective of trying cases and conveying to a jury the impact on someone it gives me a unique perspective. And I think voice to really help people understand how many different ways this impacts an individual to. , make sure that the jury, when they're making their decision, um, adequately has a full sort of backdrop of every single aspect that this goes into somebody's life. Um, whether that means, as a child growing. your relationship with your parents your job, your ability to trust other people, your marriage ultimately when you have kids addiction issues, things of that nature. I mean, there's just so many different realms that it can go into, and, uh, I think it really helps that I can then I have personal experience in that regard, so I've tried to use something as horrific as that. As sort of a positive aspect in my life and just recognize that, it put me on a journey to where I'm at today and, and, uh, you know, as not a day, I probably don't go by that. I don't think about it. But I also just try to use it the best way that I can use it. I  Susan Stone: just listened to a podcast. This weekend as a podcaster, I love to poke in, see what other people are doing, and it was on a topic that I struggle with, which is, What is my purpose? Because I just, maybe it's a middle-aged and I'm sure it's a middle-aged thing, but I think it's something I've wrestled with my whole life that what am I, why am I on this earth it? It just can't be to walk through the day, get up, go to work, make dinner, raise my. Not that those aren't incredibly important aspects of my life, but I, I'd like to think that we all are on this earth for some really important reason. And in this podcast that I listened to, the guest said something and it was my aha moment. The guest said that we go through trauma and there's, and that the ultimate way to find your purpose is to use that trauma as a way to serve others. Because everybody goes through some sort of trauma. Everybody is in pain, and if you can take what you do and be a bomb to somebody else, then it's not for nothing that you went through that experience. And I was thinking about my own life story and I've had a lot of traumatic moments and I. I know it's what makes me fight for clients because I wanted to feel when I was down and out, the people who were most important to me, who were those who weren't gonna stay neutral but would stand up and fight. And it's my gift and my curse cuz sometimes I fight too hard and I don't listen. Kristina Supler: And I think it's interesting to think about, you know, it's interesting that you bring up this idea of trauma and purpose, and we're talking about it in the context. Employers on a podcast, but I think that it's so important to think about how a, a job isn't necessarily the ends and means of the, the whole end of your purpose. But a vehicle that allows you to achieve that. And I think what I'm hearing, a common theme among the three of us is that we really enjoy what we do and it helps us look to the greater greater good we can do.  Susan Stone: We've got a lot of calls about emotional distress damages. And we had a blow recently with the law in terms of Title IX cases, which is the bulk of what we do. You cannot recover emotional distress damages for a Title IX action. However you recover emotional distress. And we'd love your insight because people are like, I'm so upset. Do they have to go to therapy? And if sending someone to therapy contrived And does there need to be a physical injury attached? Help talk about emotional distress, cuz I must talk about it once a week. What about you, Kristina?  Kristina Supler: Well, and everyone we speak to has really suffered and experienced a, a trauma that is impacting their lives in very real ways. And it's hard to say that as a lawyer, oh, sorry. The, the law's not gonna recognize that here. But maybe there are other contexts. So, Brian, what, what are your thoughts on that topic? Brian Kent: Yeah, so it's funny because I always the way that I present call them emotional distress Injuries to a jury is, and it's true. Is that it's a brain injury. And it's, it is a physical injury. It's a brain injury that has happened as a result of trauma. You have a brain injury where somebody hits their head really hard against the car window if they're hit. This is just a different type of brain injury, but doesn't mean it's not as devastating as that scenario. And I, I really get into the neurobiology of the trauma. So what area of the brain is it affecting and how is it manifesting it as a result of that change? And I think we have seen a huge progression over the past couple years in terms of being able to measure this. I mean, there, there are you know, some studies that have been done to to show what happens to the brain when there is abuse and neglect at a young age. And how can you physically see that on something like you know, a CT scan or CAT scan or something like that.  And you physically can see change changes in the brain. Not all the time. But there are cells in the brain that change and areas of the brain that there may be deficits as a result of the actual trauma that's occurred. Especially if it's over a, a significant period of time that a jury can look at and say, oh my gosh, like, yeah, clearly there is, there has been this, this trauma that's affected the brain. We've started through organization that I'm involved in Child usa, like we started doing, judicial education of ju like educating the judges on emotional distress and harm and things of that nature. And like when I bring this up and give this presentation on the neurobiology of trauma and, and you just see their eyes like light up and they're like, oh my gosh. And why people are acting the way that they're acting. And, and things of that nature. It just puts it in a different perspective for juries and for people that really don't understand the inside part of what's happening to somebody as opposed to just the outside manifestation of what the injury is. But it's, it's what it is. I always say the outside is the symptomology. The inside is really the injury. And being able to, to show that to a jury from a physical standpoint is super important for them to, to understanding that and being able to appreciate the harm, the level of harm that the trauma caused. I know this Cummings decision was, is, has been to say detrimental would be the understatement of the year. But I also think you know, I think you're gonna see a progression from this emotional distress and really trying to show that this is a physical injury such that you know, it may not be limited by this decision. And, and hopefully utilize what I'm talking about in terms of neurobiology of trauma to, to make that happen. With, with this Supreme Court, it may be a lost cause. But I think that's just one way. I think we're gonna start seeing people trying to get around that. Kristina Supler: That is fascinating. Neurobiology of trauma is, is a phrase that we hear in different contexts and it's, it's interesting. It's confusing in some respects. But let's roll it back to just basics. We have many of our audience members are parents. And for parents who are listening, if they have a student on campus, at school, away from home who's injured in for whatever reason, maybe in a dorm room is assaulted by another student, a sexual assault, perhaps. What, what are some basic steps that you would encourage a student to take to start to document their injuries or think about, you know, what to do next.  Susan Stone: I mean, we've done a lot of work educating parents ourselves, and on our website it's kj. We have a lot of tear sheets for students when they're going through a Title IX action. But we really don't touch upon broader issues. Like so in a very broad way, maybe talk about what type of injuries that should be on the radar of parents is something that could lead to a civil suit. And what should be done  Brian Kent: Are, and you, when you say parents of children, are you talking about college aged kids or younger kids or, I,  Susan Stone: I would say in general, I don't think it should be limited. Kristina Supler: I agree. No,  Brian Kent: no. I, I, I agree. I think, well, I let's say first and foremost, like I am amazed, I'm sure you, you are too, with how many cases that we get where there is some sort of yellow flag, red flag leading up to, uh, some sort of abuse or assault that occurs. And I say that because I think when you're talking about younger children and what's it kind of look for? I, I've seen it manifested in a lot of different ways. But you know, you see significant behavioral changes in a child. I will say, like from a physical standpoint, I think the large majority of cases that we get there is no physical evidence of the assault. When I say physical, I mean on the body itself.  There are sometimes, um, but I'd say the large majority of times there, there is not that physical aspect. But I, I always think it's, and I know how difficult this is, obviously from personal experience and otherwise, to report when something happens. And whether that means reporting it to law enforcement, reporting it to a school, reporting it to the people that are in the know with regards to taking action, I think it's super important that be the first step.  I mean, You guys have kids, so I, I preach to my children all the time that, no matter what it is, like if you come to me and you tell me that something happened, like it's a safe place. Like we're not gonna be angry at you, we're not gonna be upset. We're just gonna try to help. And, um, go from there.  And I'm super open with them about sexual abuse, about sexual assault and consent and pornography and things like that. Because I want them to feel safe with coming to me to talk about those really difficult issues.  And I think that also needs, from a school standpoint, institutional standpoint, you know, we're kind of hesitant to, to talk about those types of issues. But I think the more transparency there is at the end of the day and the more that students and children know that they are safe if they do come forward about something and that they'll be taken care of and protected the better. But I always say like, the first thing that they should do is at least report it. Now, we have gotten a unfortunately, and I'd love to hear what your perspective is on this from a law enforcement standpoint, we've had a ton of cases over the past couple years where we are really seeing a trend, uh, against, uh, of unless there is some corroborating evidence, they are not really pushing the envelope or arresting or whatever it may be. And that's disheartening for me because I mean, I'm former law enforcement as a, as a former prosecutor and I see cases now where it would be a no-brainer for me to at least put in front of a grand jury, uh, and let them decide as to whether they're gonna be charges. But most of the time I always say, I say, look at something and I say, of course I would charge on this case. And we're seeing more recently like a, you know, sort of trend where that's not happening for some. Have you guys seen that? What's your, been ex been your experience?  Susan Stone: Well, I wanna roll a couple things back before I address that. Sure. I think have to set a mindset up in your home that it's okay for your kids to challenge authority respectfully, might I add, without fearing retaliation.  My daughter is a junior and I just literally had a situation this week where she had applied to a summer program. And her, uh, teacher was supposed to get in a letter of recommendation. It didn't get in early. My daughter got the email from the institution. We still don't have your letter of recommendation. And my daughter told me early on to intervene. And then we had a conversation later in the day and she said to me, you know, mom, a lot of students wouldn't have gone to their parents to intervene because they'd be really scared. What if I make. Ms. X, Mr. Y. mad at me. And I've really ingrained in my students, students that I represent, and in my own home, don't worry about retaliation. Let's get an issue out early and to build that muscle on things that are not as serious, something that can be fixed. The letter of recommendation suddenly got gone.  Or my older daughter, who's now starting grad graduate school, I will never forget this. It was sixth grade. We got a report card and we noticed that the grades were an error. Again, came to me early. We asked the teacher in that grade to recalculate it, and lo and behold, my daughter did earn an A.  But that sets the stage for later reporting on the big issues. No one just comes home and says, God forbid this person in a position authority did X to me. You've gotta create a culture of telling, not tattling. And then I'll let Kristina add on about what she's been seeing with reporting with law enforcement, her perspective.  Kristina Supler: Well, I just wanna say to first address your point, Susan, and it, it seems to me that some of these smaller matters can help empower students of all ages to feel like they can speak up when something bad happens. Something that they don't wanna happen. And also perhaps, and ideally, be more aware of negative situations and immediately remove themselves. And not feel like, oh, this person is in, you know, this is my teacher, my principal, the priest, whomever has control over me. And I, I can't say, no, that's not okay, and remove myself from the situation. With respect to the issue of law enforcement. You know, I think that Brian, the point you raised is an interesting one cuz I wonder how much of it really is just tied to geography and the different perspective. Because we're not seeing that. Yeah. The different perspectives of the district attorneys and prosecutors and their offices. Because I would say in Ohio, I don't think many defense attorneys, criminal defense attorneys would say sexual assault cases are down. So I don't know. That's interesting. I, and I'd be curious to hear more from others. And also I think that just across the board with respect to college students, what we see is a greater awareness of self-advocacy in general.  Susan Stone: And we know Title IX cases are up. If it's anecdotal, we're getting calls every day for help. And what's more interesting on the calls is we're getting calls from more females wanting us to help shepherd them through, as a complainant, we're getting more single sex couples. We're getting more complete diversity in cases that we never saw initial. .  Kristina Supler: I think that's right. It's, and actually that's one of the things I love about what we do is that there's always different issues that students come to us with that we help them fight for. Susan Stone: So we're not seeing what you see. But we love your perspective in your part of the woods.  Brian Kent: Yeah, I and I j let me speak just on your, when you're talking about the culture aspect of things, you both talked about it. I, I don't know if you're seeing this in, in the especially school cases, like we just filed a case in New Jersey. Where it was so set up for just rampant boundary crossings between students and teachers. And it was it really is for me. It's like I truly believe, and this is I truly believe that you can prevent sexual abuse, sexual assault in the institutional setting if you have the appropriate safeguard setup. And everybody is doing what they're supposed to be doing. Um, I do too. I agree to prevent that from a caring and, and, and I, where you see this happening is one of those two things are lacking or both are lacking. But it's always a cultural sort of issue in, in terms of the institution itself. And what I have seen is it's just set up. If it does happen, it's set up for failure. In, in this case that we just filed over New Jersey. It's teachers, were texting students and there's just a lot of boundary issues. And that are, were,  Kristina Supler: it's so funny you say that. Yeah, sorry to interrupt, but I, I recently No, no, go ahead. Had a conversation with someone and, and basically at the heart of the story was a miscommunication that occurred between a teacher and a student. And it was over text. And I, it was a high schooler and I was shocked to, I'm like, A teacher should not be texting a student ever. And it particularly not in high school. I mean, that's just a recipe for disaster. And it's interesting to hear you have that observation in, in the suit. You recently filed boundaries. We talk about boundaries a lot. Every day, every day, every day of our  Susan Stone: life we talk to, to preach about boundaries. Let's shift to fraternity, sororities and hazing. Haha. Oh my gosh. We are still defending students of hazing allegations. Sometimes they have a lot of teeth to them. Other times I'm like, stop. Come on. You know? Yeah. I don't think popping a bottle of champagne and spilling it all over the place after kids get their big brothers is hazing. I think it's a celebration. Some acts are hazing. What are you seeing on your front?  Brian Kent: So we are, I mean, hazing goes so far beyond just the fraternity sorority level. Like we, we get a lot of these high school cases or even grade school, but high school sports cases, um,  Susan Stone: we see those too. Yeah. And actually we think they're worse than the college cases. Brian Kent: A hundred percent. I think they are as ago. Like Mo, most of the high school cases that we've got with athletic teams has been like sexualized in nature. Yes, we've had some mean, yes. Yeah, and I mean, it's straight up abuse. No doubt about it. Sexual abuse, I mean, no doubt about it.  We've also had some cases like with military academies and things like that, where similar stuff goes on. But it, again, it always comes back to like, it's the culture. Because it's been allowed to happen over and over again for gener, for, for years and years. But I think Like we talked about boundaries it is difficult to say what, what would be allowed and what, what should not be allowed. Because I, it is kind of a slippery slope. If once you allow certain types of, quote unquote hazing to occur, even if it's somewhat innocent, people may feel more comfortable doing it. More serious hazing if they know that they can get away with it. In the long run, I mean, we've seen everything, you know, the Penn State, like death cases and things like that. Like, we had a, my alma mater, we had a, a fraternity that where somebody had died as a result of alcohol hazing and things of that nature. Susan Stone: Those are the, those are just the worst.  Brian Kent: Mm-hmm. . I know they are. I mean, and because it's so easy for it to happen. I mean, I was a, I was in a fraternity at the University of Delaware as well. It is so easy for something like that to just get out of control and happen. But I don't, I have not, I mean, we have, I wanna say where we have seen the majority of our fraternity cases are more sexual assault cases than they have been hazing.  We have seen a huge amount of the hazing cases in these high school athletic programs and things of that nature. And that's not to say that they're not happening at the fraternities, cuz they, they definitely still are. I just think that's something that, and for whatever reason we've seen a little bit of a downtick in that regard. But an uptick in the sexual assaults involving fraternities but an uptick when it comes to the hazing stuff at high schools. What are, what are you guys seeing?  Kristina Supler: Well, something that we are seeing with greater frequency on, on the hazing front is, I mean, I think traditionally when people hear hazing, they think fraternities, and that's by and large what we've talked about here.  But we've handled a growing number of hazing matters involving female sports teams. And so I think that, you know, I'm curious what your experience has been in terms of hazing, sort of being construed as only male students do it because that doesn't necessarily square with some of the cases that we've been contacted about and  Susan Stone: Actually, we're seeing a different twist going on in student organizations. We're not seeing a lot of traditional hazing. I, I actually agree with you. I think fraternities are, and sororities are getting very good at watching and monitoring alcohol abuse or use for underage students and really trying very hard to create a collegial atmosphere that does not demean. So hopefully, I mean, we still have those cases, but they're getting less and less. What we are seeing is something totally different. We're seeing that the minute a student has a whiff of being accused of sexual assault before there's any investigation of all, they're canceled and kicked out. That organizations are so scared of getting involved, it's like the person has leprosy. And we're seeing these students get canceled and excluded and you talk about depression and emotional distress. Oh. We've represented students saying, I have no idea who I harmed. I have no idea what it's about. I've just been kicked down  Kristina Supler: calling me names and don't know what's driving it whatsoever and being removed from organization after organization. That's a good point, Susan. Cuz we are dealing with a lot of that right now. Brian, legally, if you were, for example, council advising one of these organizations, do you have any thoughts on why these organizations are, the students are, are taking those actions? Do you think the students are receiving advice from a national higher ups on, okay, this is too risky. We don't wanna be, have liability for anything, just put 'em on leave.  Susan Stone: I think that's a great question, Kristina. Thanks for posing it. Yep.  Brian Kent: I think so. I mean, I, I would imagine that there's somebody advising them that, you know, we, we can't, you know, just based on the allegation alone we can't have anything to do with this person and put them on leave. Do whatever you're gonna do.  Because the flip side is so, I'm a plaintiff's lawyer. I have a client that comes in and says, I was sexually assaulted at this fraternity party by this guy. And I find out that she reported it. There's an investigation and the fraternity didn't take any action whatsoever against this person. I'm coming in from a legal standpoint and saying you know, look, they may not have any they may not be vicariously liable, let's say, for his actions. There is a legal theory out there called ratification that if you are put on notice of action that you know you didn't approve of originally, but then you ratify it by not taking any corrective action, then you can be legally responsible for all of those acts that occur.  And if I'm advising those institutions, I'm probably telling them that to say if you don't take any sort of action, then we can be responsible for everything that that person did, even if we didn't have notice of it. Even if we didn't have notice that this may, this guy may be a bad guy. Um, but I, I do think that institutions are petrified when anything is anything like that. Any, anything of a sexual nature comes up that they're just trying to take some sort of action that if it does turn into something down the road that they can legitimately say, what else did you want us to do other than what we did in this case? I am super, I'm super curious to hear what your guys' perspective is on this. Are how many of those cases that are coming in where you have the individual that doesn't really know, like what happened, are alcohol related? Susan Stone: We have a couple and there's no alcohol.  Kristina Supler: I was gonna say, yeah. Really fewer than you might. Oh wow. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, fewer than you would think. We have a few right now. That are quite serious in terms of what our fallout that our client has endured. And we don't know where the allegation came from. There's, there's nothing that anyone is aware of in terms of substance abuse, whether drugs or alcohol. And the student, as Susan, you know, used the phrase earlier, has essentially been canceled. And they're not allowed to attend any activities. They're not welcome at parties. It's, it's a tough space to be in.  Susan Stone: Yeah, it's a tough time. I wanna nerd out on the legal star question. A lot of lawyers will say, ah, I know it's really sad. You've been the vic victim of a crime. And there might have even been a charge or some incarceration. But if you're in victim of an in a crime, wow, there's gonna be no insurance coverage. You shouldn't sue. Do you agree with that?  Brian Kent: No, because first and foremost even cases where, so even cases involving an individual perpetrator, so, or an alleged individual perpetrator. So let's say, you know, student A is alleged to have sexually assault, sexually assaulted student B. And let's just leave out any of the institutional aspect of things. That, if that is, and I don't know what Ohio's law is on this, if that is if there is alcohol involved in that, such that it may be an issue of mistaken consent or something along those lines. You know, the pur student a says we were drinking, uh, she didn't tell me no, or something along those. We are getting insurance in those cases because it negates the intentional aspect of it, at least from an insurance standpoint. And then you, you talk about the cases involving the institution. So let's say that that same scenario happened at a fraternity. And the fraternity had served alcohol to student B, which led to her being incapacitated. And then this sexual assault occurred or they, the fraternity of new student A was a bad guy or something along those lines. There's gonna be insurance coverage there for, for that scenario as well. Unless there's some very specific clause on the insurance contract that says, you know, we don't handle, we will not provide any insurance coverage let's say a sexual assault that occurs under your roof. Again, like this is what we do for a living. I mean, we have nine of us here that solely handle sexual assault and abuse cases. And I don't know, maybe for, say for a handful there's almost always been insurance coverage available in those cases. And even in cases involving co in cases involving college students who for purposes of insurance technically are dependents and insureds under their parents' policies still. They will be covered by their homeowners. Now, if there may be, it's something in the homeowners that says, We we're not, covering like criminal acts or something like that. But we have had college assault cases where we have sued the individual perpetrator and gotten coverage under the parents' homeowners.  Susan Stone: That's great for the parents if, God forbid, your kids involved. Don't just give up. If one person that you talked to says, ah, forget it. There's always a way with some creative lawyering. I like that message of hope. .  Kristina Supler: And on that note, we've covered a lot of ground and territory in our discussion today. We've sort of weaved in and out of broader topics and and more technical legal discussion, I'd like to end by giving you the opportunity, Brian. What message or advice or words of encouragement do you have for sexual abuse survivors and their parents.  Brian Kent: So first and foremost, I think, thank you for you guys doing what you do. I think that for survivors it's super important to make sure that if something does happen that you find attorneys that have experience in handling these cases, that will provide you a safe place to, to say what you need to say, and will be an integral part in, in your healing process.  And I do believe that what we do in terms of helping people in the civil process is a crucial, important part of the healing process. I mean, you have the criminal case that deals with the criminal perpetrator. But a, as we know most times the abuse or assault happened because of some institutional safety failure. And really the way to, to prevent that from happening again is, is through these civil lawsuits and, and holding these, these other folks accountable as well and, and giving the voice to the victim who has their own attorney in the civil lawsuit to tell their story the way that they wanted to be told. So I think that's important for survivors that they make sure in when they're looking for somebody to, to help them in a civil case, that they find attorneys that have experience and that do these cases for the right reasons and treat, will treat the person the way that they should be treated. I think from my perspective and I can only speak from sort of an attorney, male attorney, but also a, abuse survivor is, and this is something I preach to every group that I speak to, is it is super important for any of the men in your life to ensure that they feel it's okay to be vulnerable and talk about what's going on with them.  I really truly believe that if you, if we had different if the majority of the male view out there was different than that toxic male, you gotta win, you gotta fight, you gotta do all this stuff, don't talk about your feelings, yada, yada, yada. But was more, Hey, it's okay to talk about what's going on with you. It's okay to talk about something bad that happened to you. And, and let's talk it, put it on the table. It's gonna be safe, well received, and things of that nature. Like you would see a dramatic decrease in in violence and crime in just a ton of different issues that we have with men. I mean, I, I've worked with sexual predators. Men that have committed sexual, sexually violent acts. I've worked with survivors of sexual abuse. Uh, I've worked with sexual, you know, se guys that have sexual addiction, things of that nature. And like the one common theme is they all have this internal pain that they're dealing with, and they've never been it felt like it was okay to talk about it.  Um, instead they, they act out in some sort of way in whatever that manner is. And I just think that if we were to really preach to the men in our life that it's okay to talk about what's going on with you. Be your true, authentic self then you, you would see a, a much better world out there. Um, and I'm not saying that that would not be the case for, for women as well. I can only speak to that from my perspective as sort of a male advocate and survivor.  Susan Stone: And we needed that perspective on Real Talk. And we. I know, thank you for being on here. And I cannot wait for the next opportunity to pair up with you and your wonderful team because it just makes practicing law so much more enjoyable. When you get to work with such brilliant attorneys that, uh, you don't normally get to be with, other than you, Kristina, every day of have all day, every day, more than her own family.  Kristina Supler: Thanks for joining us, Brian. This was a real treat.  Brian Kent: Oh, thank you both for having me. I really appreciate it. It was great. 

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Dr. Suzanne Schneps, a 30-year clinical psychologist who works with children, their parents and family units.  Topics that they discuss are related to resilience in children.  The conversation includes the relationship between resilience and success, how parents can teach kids resilience without over-parenting, and tips to model resilience for children to see and emulate. Show Notes: (03:05) How Dr. Schnep Defines Resilience (05:06)  How To Really Define Success (05:57)  Is Being Resilient Linked To Success? (06:58)  Are Kids Struggling More These Days Than In Previous Generations? (10:31)  How Parents Can Build Resilience Into Children (12:54)  Parents and Kids:  Collaborating Versus Setting Non-Negotiable (15:17)  Knowing When to Protect Your Child Versus Letting Them Find Their Own Way (18:05)  The Difference Between Your Child Being Bullied versus Not Just Being Liked (20:41)  How Educators Can Handle Bullying Or Mean Comments In Class (21:41)  A Great Example of Mediation Between Students in Conflict (24:49)  Resilience for Kids and Dealing with Grief of the Death of a Loved One (27:04)  What it Means to a Child When Parents Apologize For Their Behavior (29:11)  When Is It Ok to Hold Back From Kids (31:40)  How to Talk To Kids About Covid (RSV)? (34:19)  Set the Example: Model Resilience For Your Kids Susan Stone: Today's topic is really a very fundamental topic because as everyone knows, Kristine and I focus on helping students when they're in a crisis situation. But long after Kristina and I are able to help the student out of the. We hear back from parents and some kids bounce back and lead and go on to do better. Susan Stone: And some kids, the crisis defines them and it leads us to the question of resilience. So we wanted to have a podcast focused on that very topic because Kristina and I only see a small snippet of the crisis. We don't know the student before. And unless someone reaches back out to us, we don't know the after. Susan Stone: So our guest is really the expert on the topic. Kristina Supler: We're pleased today to be joined by Suzanne Schneps, who is a clinical psychologist in Cleveland, Ohio, who's been practicing for over 30 years. She works with children's parents and family units. Prior to her clinical work, Dr. Schneps' training, uh, was as an elementary school teacher and also a special education, uh, worker. Kristina Supler: She worked with children with cognitive challenges, learning differences, and a variety of mental health issues as well. This experience really informs Dr. Schneps' work with children and gives her a unique understanding of how academic and school issues impact a child's self-concept and overall wellbeing. Kristina Supler: Dr. Schnapps is just the best. Susan Stone: I would have to agree and I'll have to throw in. This is really scary. I met Dr. Schneps over 25 years ago already. Wow. Yeah. She is a consultant at my um, daughter's school, which is Hathaway Brown and All Girl School, and she really. Made a big impact on creating an environment for resilience. Susan Stone: So we have maintained our relationship all these years. And when you say she is the best, The best, but I also say her daughter, who is a psychologist, also the best, , also the best. So can we give a shout out that not only are you great working with students, but you raised one heck of a daughter in that Jenny Wolinsky? Dr. Suzanne Schneps: You know, I don't know whether I can handle all these positives. Ladies, .  Kristina Supler: Well, welcome. We're happy to have you today. Thanks for joining us.  Susan Stone: So before we launch into a big discussion on resilience, Dr. Schnapps, can you define the term so we're all on the same page? What we're really talking about? .  Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Well, well, well, Susan, I think you gave a good way to describe resilience to kids, but also adults. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: It's bouncing back. It's how are you gonna handle the fact that life is not perfect, that life has handled, handed you some things that are kind of challenging, and how are you gonna respond? so you move on with life. In the early years we would do lots of little exercises where we would give a situation and we would literally have them jump up and down to show that they were bouncing back and being resilient. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: But it's figuring out a way to move forward so that the problem did not define you and did not weigh you down as you move forward in the future.  Kristina Supler: it. It resilience relates to being able to move forward. Let me ask you, can a child or an adult be successful without having resilience? Well, I guess  Dr. Suzanne Schneps: I would have to say that it depends on how you define being successful. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: I know about that  Kristina Supler: answer coming.  Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Oh my gosh. Wait, wait. Yeah. Walk yourself right into that. Sure did. Okay. You know, if you wanna be miserable your whole life, it's kind of a choice. Okay. By my standards, you could probably have a more, positive forward thinking. I might even use the word happier life, but if you're okay with it that's really your choice. Susan Stone: Is that successful? I mean, seriously. I'm not just trying to play cute. Yeah. If your goal is to be miserable and you achieve it, you're successful at that. So I don't think that's our definition .  Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Well, that's not our definition of a healthy mental health approach to life. So if we're saying that we want resilience and we want a happy, healthy life, that would be allowing the resilience. Susan Stone: I'm still struggling. I don't know why. Yeah. Help me out here because when I think of success,  Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Uh, you're defining success Susan and Kristina by how you personally experience it. Okay. You are both very resilient people. Crisis is put in front of you. You actually live this in your work. You figure it out, you try to solve it, and the then you move on. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: You move on to the next one. Right? Okay. But there are people in life who say, I don't wanna do that. I'm okay being stuck. I don't wanna move on. Misery's comfortable. I mean, it's not a healthy approach, but you can make that choice. What happens then is you become known as a negative person. You become known as somebody that half the world does not really wanna be with, and you're miserable, but you can make that choice. Susan Stone: Would you agree then that being resilient is part and parcel of being successful? Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Yes. I think it leads to being a moving forward. Adult and by and a moving forward child being resilient lets you continue on a path that's positive and on a path which we would define as successful, rather than being stuck. Yeah. ,  Kristina Supler: Dr. Schnep, susan and I tend to really only see Stu students when they're in crisis, at their worst, whether it's a school issue, a campus, uh, issue for kids in college, God forbid an issue in the juvenile justice system. Kristina Supler: Would you agree that students are less resilient today than they've been in the past.  Susan Stone: Yeah, because we really can't go by what we see. It's not fair. We don't actually, nobody calls a lawyer and says, just want you to know my kid's doing great . Kristina Supler: It just seems that the kids are struggling more now. I mean, is that accurate or what are your thoughts? Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Okay. I think, could we separate two things? Sure. I do think kids have a great deal more to, to struggle with. I think that the world is much more complicated. Social media adds a great deal. Uh, more pressure on kids. I don't know that I would say that they are less resilient today than they were in the past. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: I just think they have more to be resilient about.  Susan Stone: Okay, but is that something every generation says? I mean, I'm sure the generation that was sending people off to the Vietnam War said this generation has more to deal with when, with others, or take it back further. My mother was a depression baby. And first generation after the Holocaust. Susan Stone: I think that generation, could we just, what makes this  Kristina Supler: different, big, big issues versus. I wasn't invited to the party and I saw on Snapchat all my friends at a party.  Susan Stone: Yeah, I just have a hard time with that. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Okay, so let's take a look at the following of when you're a kid. This is one of my favorite moments as a clinician cuz it helped to so define how an adolescent can see the world. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: I, I had this, this is really many years ago actually. I had this kid, his father was in the hospital with some bizarre disease that they thought he was going to die. His grandmother had just died. His unc Fa very favorite uncle had just died all within a week. I saw him on a Friday. I saw him on a Saturday. I saw him on a Sunday on Monday. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Wow. He calls, it's a miracle. His father's fine. All's good, but he has another huge problem. You wouldn't have time for this kid. We weren't supposed to see each other. I said, sure thing. What's the deal? The big problem was he was a sophomore in high school and it was homecoming and he didn't drive yet and did I think it would be embarrassing. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: He went to Beachwood. I actually remember if his mother. Dropped him off at the corner of Fairmont and Richmond and they walked the other way. But this was the big problem.  Susan Stone: Touche, touche.   Dr. Suzanne Schneps: We might say it's not a big problem, Kristina. Uh, you know that I read on Snapchat that everybody went to the party and I didn't. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: But as a kid it is a big problem. Okay? And they move from. Okay. Right to the next big one.  Susan Stone: You know what? That's so interesting because that I was always raised with the cliche, little people, little problems, big people, bigger problems. But what you're saying is that's not true. You have to take the person where they're at. Susan Stone: They're just as big at that point. Kristina Supler: Yeah. It doesn't feel fair to minimize the problem in, in the life of the child, just because, you know, we as adults with our life history and experience, say like, oh, who cares? Move on.  Dr. Suzanne Schneps: This would be like all the times that people have said, you'll go to your high school reunion, it'll be your 20th reunion, and you'll see that those people didn't amount to anything. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: They had a popular ones, you know, et cetera, et cetera. , it's irrelevant. When you're in the middle of, of your high school years, it's important to you in your middle school years. We have to take kids where they're at and what's important to them.  Susan Stone: That's why she's the bomb.  Kristina Supler: That's right. That's right. let's just jump to it. Kristina Supler: The big question here, what can parents do to build resilience in children?  Susan Stone: We now have defined the problem. We want the solution.  Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Okay? Kids do not emphasize, not, you know, capital bold, like to always be told what to do. they like to figure it out. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: And if we're teaching them to be resilient, it's asking them the question of it's empathizing first. I mean, you know, that's really awful. Uh, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. What ideas do you have that would move you forward? Let you know I, you always have, and it's giving the positive vibe that you know, that they can figure it out and listening and hearing what they have to say and then commenting on it and asking. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Sounds great. Can I give a tweak to it? Because sometimes you're going, oh my goodness, that needs a little help.  Kristina Supler: Oh geez. That's not the, that's not the way to move forward. .  Dr. Suzanne Schneps: and sometimes you go, oh my gosh, that is not how to be resilient. You cannot go, and punch 'em out on the playground. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Um, that's gonna get us in real trouble. So then it's to say, well, let's think through the consequences of, of that choice. So it's engaging in a conversation. You are helping them to be resilient by giving them the message that they can figure it out.  Susan Stone: We, where I struggle is the line between, sometimes you let them figure it out and sometimes it's a must do. Susan Stone: So let me give you an example. Um, okay. . My third was very, very nervous about driving. Mm-hmm. , I'm a working mother. Mm-hmm. divorce situation. So getting that kid driving was really important to me. Mm-hmm. and there. And by the way, today she is a great little driver, but getting her through that anxiety and then finally saying you're doing. Susan Stone: that it there, it's non-negotiable. How do you deal with the line of collaborating versus setting the non-negotiable?  Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Great question. Okay. Well, well, first of all, I personally am a big fan of the word non-negotiable. Some things are non-negotiable. You, you know, you have to go to school. It's non-negotiable. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: In your instance, your third child needed to learn to drive. It was non-negotiable. So the, the, there, there are a couple of pieces here. First of all, this is gonna sound weird for the person that encouraged people to talk. Sometimes as parents, we overtalk, we keep talking and talking and talking and we don't. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Okay. It's enough already. Since I'm not a dentist, TMJ is a very good thing. Shut your mouth, . Okay. Be quiet. Because we are encouraging and fostering anxiety, the more that we talk, we sometimes need to put a lid on it. Okay. And then in putting a lid on it, when it's non-negotiable, look for where there are some choices. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: You know, your daughter needed to Learn to drive. Okay, so it's saying it's non-negotiable, but here's what you can choose. I found this driving school and this driving school. You pick, talk to your friends. You know, you thought they both were fine. What do you care? So it's giving choice where you can, but making it clear it's going to happen. Susan Stone: Sort of like potty training. It's non-negotiable that you need to potty. You can pick the princess underwear or the  Dr. Suzanne Schneps: rainbow underwear. Yes. Now of course you've walked yourself into such a complicated topic that we really won't go there . Cause you know, toilet training is all about control and the bottom line is you can say that, but they can choose to not want any of the underwear and we could have a problem. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: So we'll leave that one for another topic, another time. .  Kristina Supler: Fair enough. Now, of course, being resilient, it doesn't mean that children aren't going to experience difficulty pain, heartache. Yeah. So what's the balance? That's life. That that's life and at any age, right? What's the balance between. , I hear you when you're saying, you know, don't over talk. Kristina Supler: Let the kids be a part of, of solving and working through how to move forward. But what's the balance between letting your child work through the issue? Feel the feelings, find a solution, and protecting your kid?  Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Yeah. Okay. That's a very good question actually. I agree. Here's where we protect our kid and step in, number one, we step in when it's a safety issue. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Parents always need to protect their kids with a, with a, with a safety issue. What defines a safety issue? Anything that will be harmful to them physically and anything that's significantly harmful to them educationally and emotionally When people hire you. , they know that their kid cannot navigate that system. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Actually, they're having trouble navigating the system. Oh yeah. Okay. So they are protecting their child by getting them what, what they need. And it's not a reasonable standard that some child should be able to do that. I think it's also taking into account developmentally where they're at. your little third grader gets into a, you know, a, a, a tiff with other kids and, and is fighting with them and gets called names and it's, you know, it doesn't go well. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: And they cross boundaries and say inappropriate things. A mom can still call and see if she can navigate with another mother, but when you were a junior or senior in high school, that is not appropriate. It's funny. So we  Susan Stone: need. Yeah, I, I was just gonna say, I was talking to a very dear fa friend. Mm-hmm. , and it was a, a younger child where it got a, the name calling, I felt crossed a boundary. Susan Stone: And my advice was pick up the phone and call the mother. Now, don't let this continue. Would you have agreed with that? .  Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Yes. Yes. Because the kid's little and the kid, we can help the kid with what to say, but not all of them can do it. And that's different than being 17 or 18 years old. Where we can role play, we can plan it, we can think about it, but they need to take care of some of it themselves. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Hmm. Well  Susan Stone: you know what, look, we get a lot of calls from younger parents wanting me to sue school districts for bullying. And of course it's a very, very complicated legal issue that, you know, the school has to be first put on notice that there is bullying, but before we even get to something that would be defined as bullying, do you think there is a difference between. Susan Stone: Just not being liked by peers and bullying.  Kristina Supler: That's a great question and I'm so curious to hear your response. Dr. Schneps because Susan and I often find ourselves in situations where we're having really hard conversations with parents. We're speaking as lawyers and you know, sometimes I feel like a jerk and parents are emotional and sharing with us their child's struggle and we're like, sorry, legally you don't have anything we can do for you. Kristina Supler: Be best wishes. You know that that stinks.  Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Okay. Well, I think I, I, this is not gonna be a popular view, but I think a little bit we are overusing the word bullying. I,  Susan Stone: I think I totally agree. Well, we  Kristina Supler: agree.  Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Yeah. Yeah. you can say to me something like, oh my gosh, those are such ugly earrings. Why would you ever buy them and wear them? Dr. Suzanne Schneps: You look ridiculous. . That's not bullying, that's being mean. You mean girls, you . That's not bullying or  Susan Stone: brutally  Dr. Suzanne Schneps: honest. It's brutally honest. You don't like 'em. Susan, I thought they were not bad. Um, it. It, but it's just plain mean. Okay. It's not bullying. And I, as a kid, need to learn. And that's where I would say the word resilience comes in. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: How do I handle those mean, mean comments? And I think that it is. Particularly in the early years, there is a tendency to do some of that mean kind of thing. You've been mean to me. I'm gonna be mean to her. See how, and, uh, I'll play it out and see how that feels. Hurt. People hurt. Mm-hmm. . And so I, I think parents need to help their kids with how to respond, which I guess would be being resilient if people make mean comments. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Now, what doesn't work in 2022? Were almost a 2023. You were probably told the two of you to ignore things. You can make one ignore and then you have to have a comeback. No,  Susan Stone: not me, not I, not I Not you. No, actually, My , my parents basically said the only way to stop a bully or someone being mean is take 'em out in the playground and beat 'em up. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Well, that'll get you nowhere today, . Yeah.  Kristina Supler: That'll get you get kicked outta school today.  Susan Stone: Yeah. I, I, I didn't come from the ignore it, but I also think that was from a family where, again, My parents were depression babies and lost all their extended family in World War ii, so the whole thought of fighting back was very ingrained in them. Susan Stone: Mm-hmm. .  Kristina Supler: What about for educators? Dr. Schnapps? We have, we have teachers in our audience who listen and school administrators. In. In your opinion, what can the classroom teacher, who's, who's seeing and hearing the name calling the looks, the, the heartache over exclusion, whatever it might be, what can the classroom teacher do to to stop the bullying or intervene in a constructive way. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Well, I think there's a couple things they can do, Kristina. I think one thing is they can encourage I statements instead of saying, you did this to me, you did this to me. It's the, I felt this way. I experienced what just happened to me, and encouraged kids to do that and give them the opportunity to be able to practice it. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: I also think. that they can encourage a form of mediation, which let's see. I will briefly define it. It's where you, you and peer, you're smiling.  Susan Stone: Well, just because Kristina and I, many, many years ago, way before the pandemic became certified in restorative justice and we've just now years later, see it,  Kristina Supler: schools sort of embracing the idea. Kristina Supler: Well, let me let you answer. I'll let you finish your answer. I think we're talking about the same thing, but who knows. So what does mediation mean to  Dr. Suzanne Schneps: you? Oh, okay. I've had a conflict with, with you, Kristina. Okay. Horrible, horrible fight. You know, a horrible fight. I can't stand and I could in the best, in the best of all. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Susan says she will help us do this cuz she's another kid. But if not the teacher does. And first I tell what happened, how I see what happened. Mm-hmm. . And then you respond by saying exactly what I said. So if I say two plus two equals eight, you say two, Suzanne said two plus two equals eight. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: You do not change what? , then you talk and say what you think happened and I again repeat it. And if you say, nine plus nine is one, I have to say nine plus nine is one. And then the person that's helping us says, do either of you have a solution? And we look to see if there is a solution. Put, uh, put out there and we discuss it. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: But what's happened is each person has really heard what the other person experienced. And for many, and for a large majority of the, what would we call them more? Just they were mean and they were unkind, et cetera. It's easy to get the apology. It's easy to. Sure the next time you can, play with me and tag it. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: It resolves a lot of the easier things. Relatively quickly, the more complicated kinds of things. It brings to the foreground the need for further discussion and some kind of plan of action to further that discussion.  Kristina Supler: So it sounds as though you're saying that the, what you've called mediation is really appropriate for children of all. Kristina Supler: It. It works quite well with the younger kids. Is that fair?  Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Well, actually, I could take it a step further. It works really well between parents and kids.  Susan Stone: Oh, I love that. To really say, okay. To repeat back what you're hearing and that, and also to make sure you're framing the issue correctly. Yes. That's great. Kristina Supler: I like it. I like it.  Susan Stone: So when students do suffer, A tragedy, and Lord knows the world does not lack tragedy, even if it's from, God forbid, the loss of a parent, any type of death including. We, we have heard in the community this year there were a number of young adults who died from fentanyl overdoses. Susan Stone: So we know that really serious things are happening and you have those remaining siblings, or even divorce.  Kristina Supler: These are all, it's a major trauma for children.  Susan Stone: Yeah. Really major trauma. Susan Stone: At what point do you say grieving is good? , but there's gotta be some sort of, not to get all lawyerly with you, statute of limitations on the grieving or  Kristina Supler: basically life goes on, you gotta move forward.  Susan Stone: How do you do that?  Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Okay. Well, so ladies, there isn't a statute of limitations on grieving.  Kristina Supler: You c old callous lawyer, you Kristina Supler: The psychologist says wrong .  Dr. Suzanne Schneps: That's why she's here. When there is ladies. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: how are you gonna manage it so that it doesn't, and it's, it's interesting cuz you asked this, when you say our topic is resilience, okay, how do you manage it in a way that still allows you to move forward? But you can have, I, I lost a parent as a child, particularly 20 years ago. And. You still can see a movie. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Okay, we'll make it simple and it re brings up and taps into play that, that grief and that's okay. You cried, but then you still were able to pull yourself together and, go out and have some ice cream and share what it was, and, and vocalize that it reminded you of your own situation that you've become comfortable with. Susan Stone: What I have done with my own children is insist that we all have to move forward, but also allow for space for them to talk about the past whenever they need to. I know the three of my children, and, and I'm not just sharing, but I will share with my reader, Suzanne has been incredible for my family. Susan Stone: There's a way to. , incorporate it into your life. And that's the word I would use, that it's okay at dinner if they wanna bring something up or, acknowledge where I, as a parent could have helped them navigate better and, and I use those opportunities to apologize and say, you know, you're right. I wish that I could have handled that better. Susan Stone: In hindsight, I wish I would've had the strength or the resilience. , I'm, I am happy you're bringing it up now, but we still at the same time are moving on and have moved on. You  Dr. Suzanne Schneps: can move on at the same time that you can continue conversations, but you just brought up a really important thing, which I have to underscore, never underestimate how much it means to a. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: To apologize. It means so much that you've owned your behavior. We ask them all the time to own their behavior, and it means the world to kids when parents own their behavior.  Kristina Supler: That's a really, really powerful point, I think, for our listeners to keep in mind. So thank you for sharing that. Yeah, and it it just, this idea of loss. Kristina Supler: Death, divorce, illness, you name it. The, the struggles in life. How o how honest should parents be with children about the bad stuff in life? About the fact that life isn't always fair, the good guy doesn't always win. Maybe you worked really, really hard and still failed the test. You know, how, how should parents handle basically the injustices of life when talking to their children? Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Okay. I think ki parents need to be honest with their children. Parent kids hear and know far more than parents ever give them credit for. However, we need to do this in a developmentally sound way, so how we share. With our little six year old is different than how we share with our 16 year old. They don't have the same cognitive abilities to, to understand things. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: And that would be in terms of both the world and what's happened or something in the family that's happened. And then we wanna encourage questions. A, a good way to kind of think about it is kids talk about. And we, ask us questions about sex, and parents have become increasingly comfortable of adjusting those conversations to developmentally where they are. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: There are other really serious topics that they also need to do the same kind of adjustment, but they need to be honest. Now, another phrase that is helpful with kids. Is full disclosure is not always required. So I'll give an example. A mother goes for her mammogram and gets that horrible call that she needs another mammogram. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Okay? We all know as women, this puts us into a real tailspin scary time.  Susan Stone: Oh my gosh. Uh, I, yes.  Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Okay. The mother. does not need to share with her children. Oh my God, I think I have cancer. Nobody said you have cancer. You have simply been told you need to have another mammogram. You wanna to say, I, you know, I'm gonna have more tests. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Fine, but you don't need to go to the nth degree cause we don't have that information. Okay. You find out that the story is not a good one. You need to think about, and that gets into a whole complicated thing, how to explain that, which we don't need to go to, but you, your kids do need to know, and they do need to know that you're gonna have treatments, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: And answering your questions. You're doing  Susan Stone: a great job. But I, you know, let's shift, and this is a timely topic. of Covid because I'm assuming we're gonna head into the winter months. I don't know when this podcast is gonna get played. And everybody has either had it or knows someone and everybody has it in a different way. Susan Stone: Mm-hmm. , can you give a little piece of advice on what is the healthy way to talk about. Covid. I mean, what I've been saying to my family is we'll deal with it, whatever it looks like. And right now, gosh, one out of three of my kids had it. I had it. But you know, it was tough. I will tell you my own covid experience, it was really rough and I. Susan Stone: Double vaxxed and double boosted, but oh, it was a bear.  Kristina Supler: Well, and now on the news, all the reports are showing that particularly among children, COVID, R S V, respiratory illnesses are on the rise, and pediatric hospitalizations have skyrocketed and the healthcare system is getting bogged down again. And so, I mean, scary stuff, not that we have to go into all those details with our kids necessarily, but be honest. Kristina Supler: Be developmentally appropriate. So what are your thoughts on how to still discuss the lingering.  Dr. Suzanne Schneps: medical crisis. And so, so last night my youngest granddaughter is actually ill, and she said, do I have r sv? Well, wow, we don't. She's is going to go to the doctor today. She doesn't have covid. And then she says, and this is important, she says, Alexa, is there a treatment for rsv? Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Wow. . Okay. Okay. Technology. So we need, we need to realize that they have access to many resources that we don't think about. . Okay. Oh, Alexa. So true. And so the, the an in how to approach it, it is, I think first there's so many pieces to this, and the first is to say, in our family, we have done the following. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: In our family, everybody's vaccinated, and that helps. Now, if you're in a non-vaccinated family, you need to explain why you think that's a good idea. . It's to say we have good healthcare. We have people that will help us to navigate it. And it's to say we're gonna deal with what happens. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: We see, you know, with Covid the spectrum of how people experience it is vast. And just because you test positive, you might actually feel reasonably. We need to wait to see and then we'll make, and then we'll make a plan. I think that we've learned a lot of positive things actually, which I know sounds weird but I think that people are more sensitive to not being in public when they're. Kristina Supler: I totally agree. I think, yeah. I think in the workplace, employees are, are, we're all more sensitive to that. Like, if you don't feel good, stay home.  Susan Stone: Yeah. And we're set up for it now. Mm-hmm.  Dr. Suzanne Schneps: and, and I think it's in, it's, I guess the most important message to a parent in terms of dealing with any of this is checking their own anxiety. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Okay. And being sure that they're representing being calm and that you have healthcare professionals out there that'll help you. And that it's, you know, we've learned a lot and it's going to be okay. You're gonna figure it out and and reach out to the people that can help you. Is there  Susan Stone: any question that we haven't touched on today that you think is important for you to tell our listeners about the topic of resilience. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: One more topic, one more thought. Please. I think it's an opportunity for you to model resilience. Kids like to see that grownups can handle what they have and it, they don't need to know about every crisis that ever happens, but giving examples of how you've handled things and modeling resilience really gives away for children to learn how to be  Susan Stone: resilient. Susan Stone: When you say modeling, do you. just talking about it or just like  Kristina Supler: sharing our own problems with our children and in how we worked through it, and it's a great follow up question. Susan, what do you mean by modeling Dr. Schnapps?  Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Okay. I don't mean sharing things that are gonna make them anxious. O okay. Okay. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: But I'll give a made up example. I think the kids like to know what's going on in our lives and, you know, you had a boss or have and the. The boss really, read you the riot act about what you did. And it, sharing with them, I didn't do a good job on that report. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: It made me feel awful. And then what I decided to do was rewrite it and I decided to. Asked one of my coworkers to look at it, and then I, returned it back in and got rave reviews, modeling, showing what you did to solve the problem and that you didn't cave and, put yourself to bed for five days because somebody said you didn't write a good report. Susan Stone: Or how about when you just failed at something and you say, huh, I did fail at that. I didn't get a good report. But life went on. Is that, Because we do fail.  Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Well, yes, I'm though I'm sure that you win 99.9% of your cases, always, always never lost that this didn't go your way and to share with them that you felt really disappointed. Dr. Suzanne Schneps: You, you talk back and forth to each other. You tried to see if there was anything you could have done differently. You really didn't think there was, and you were really sad. And, you, you realize that in what you do, you cannot win every single case. The same way that when your children apply to college in today's world, they may or may not get accepted. Kristina Supler: Or maybe you're not gonna go to Harvard and that's okay. You'll go elsewhere, right?  Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Mm-hmm. . But you can be really, really, really disappointed. Mm-hmm. that you didn't get into Harvard, it was your life. and it's okay to be upset, but then you have to figure out which one of the many other opportunities works for you. Kristina Supler: Well, Dr. Schneps, this has really been a, a joy to speak with you and pick your brain and talk through these parenting issues that I think that we've all experienced it at some point in time and many of our listeners are currently working through, or, issues around the horizon. So thank you so much for your time today and sharing your. Kristina Supler: your tips and your feedback and, and really practical advice for families, working through issues and trying to do the best they can.  Susan Stone: I was gonna say, Cleveland is really lucky to have you as one of our mental health resources, so yay us. Right?  Dr. Suzanne Schneps: Yes. Well, and thank the two of you for having me, and people are lucky to be able to work with the two of you as well.

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Professor Antony Aumann, a professor of philosophy at Northern Michigan University.  Topics that they discuss are related to ChatGPT and students.  The conversation includes the ethical quagmire for students who use Artificial Intelligence to cheat, how ChatGPT can be beneficial and even necessary, and what role, if any, God and religion play in the rising number of students who are cheating. Links: ChatGPT Website: https://openai.com/blog/chatgpt/ Professor Antony Aumann's Webpage: https://nmu.edu/philosophy/antony-aumann Show Notes: (00:47) What is ChatGPT? (02:24)  How a suspicious paper propelled Professor Aumann in the Public Eye (03:30)  How Professor Aumann proved the student was cheating (04:51)  How Artificial Intelligence (AI) is being used to prove student cheating (06:31)  Can ChatGPT be used to help students write better papers? (07:48)  Will AI replace graphic designers? (10:11)  Are students just lazy today? (10:49)  Are professors guilty of being lazy? (11:55)  Why we can't go back to hand-written essays (13:44)  Professor Aumann's unorthodox solution on ChatGPT (15:27)  Why students should learn to use ChatGPT (16:38)  Do we need more God in lives to keep us honest? (18:50)  What are people turning to for spiritual peace? (20:30)  Why do students really go to college (21:44)  Are college students becoming nihilist? (24:10)  What is our role as parents with ChatGPT? (24:37)  Advice for stressed-out students (25:29)  How Professor Aumann handles all the media attention Transcript: Susan Stone: We are talking about ChatGPT today. As you know, Kristina and I represent students accused of misconduct. And a lot of the work we do is defending students when they're accused of cheating. And since last November ChatGPT has been all over the news outlets, including the New York Times, talk about this is the new way students cheat. Susan Stone: Kristina, why don't you describe what ChatGPT is?  Kristina Supler: Sure. So I don't at all profess to be a, a tech expert on any level, but reality has forced me to learn more about ChatGPT. It's essentially an AI tool that uses natural language processing techniques to respond to user-generated prompts. Really what you do is you ask a question or give it a prompt. And then it just replies using natural language. Kristina Supler: It's pretty fascinating.  Susan Stone: Well, it's how students are getting around writing their own essays. They're actually putting in the prompt in the computer, and then the GPT actually spits out the essay for you.  Susan Stone: And it's not without controversy. Places like the New York City schools have banned it. So we're here today to talk more about it. Susan Stone: Why don't you, with that prompt, to introduce our esteemed guest? Kristina Supler: Sure. We are joined today by Anthony Aumann who's a professor of philosophy at Northern Michigan University. He teaches courses on aesthetics, religion, existentialism. His research focuses primarily on the writings of Kierkegaard, as well as issues in contemporary philosophy of art. And recently he's gained significant notoriety cause he was featured in a New York Times article discussing our very topic today. ChatGPT. Welcome. Welcome.  Professor Antony Aumann: Thanks so much for having me on. It's a real pleasure to be here.  Susan Stone: Okay, I'm gonna start with the low brow question. Ready for this. How does a professor at Northern Michigan University who teaches philosophy and art and Kierkegaard get featured in the New York Times to talk about a tech app? Professor Antony Aumann: I think that it all started because I caught a student who used the chat to write an essay for my class. And yeah, there was a Facebook post by my friend, uh, who also caught someone that went viral and they were looking for other people who had a similar story. Professor Antony Aumann: And I was one of those people. They liked my story.  Susan Stone: That's crazy. So you basically, and I read about that in the New York Times, figured out that the student wrote something that just didn't seem appropriate for, was it that student or just in general?  Professor Antony Aumann: Yeah, well, so it was that student. I can tell you this story. Professor Antony Aumann: It's kind of funny.  Kristina Supler: So yeah, tell a funny story.  Professor Antony Aumann: I'm already laughing. The student submitted an essay that was just a little bit too good to be true, like the grammar was perfect and the structure was just impeccably logically sound, and it was really insightful. And frankly it was a little bit better than what my most of my students are capable of. Professor Antony Aumann: But of course, that in and of itself is a red flag, but it's not proof. So what I did is I took the student's essay and I pasted it into ChatGPT. And I said, Hey, did you write this? And it came back and it says there's a 99.9% chance that it did write it . And so what I did, it had like some other things.  Professor Antony Aumann: So I cut and pasted the chat G P T thing, and I emailed it back to the student and I said, Hey, you can send me a chat thing. I'm gonna send you a chat thing back. What do you say about this ?  Susan Stone: Wait, did you own, wow. So we just were looking into this. Did you pay for it or how did you even have it?  Professor Antony Aumann: Yeah, so this is the same company that invented Dolly, which, uh, was all the rage last year because it can create its art images, unique art images, original art images from any prompt that you give it. Professor Antony Aumann: And as an artist myself, I was really fascinated by that. So when they came out with this essay writing chat bot, I was like, oh, I have to hop on this.  Kristina Supler: It's interesting. It seems like every year, 18 months, there's a new development in tech that somehow impacts significantly the academic landscape. So tell us now, what strategies are professors using to detect cheating, plagiarism? Susan Stone: Other than turn it in, we know about Turn it in. Sure. .  Professor Antony Aumann: Yeah. I have a, I have a lot to say about this largely because I don't think that we're very good at detecting things. So there are a bunch of programs out there, including a program that has been made famous by this student, Edward Tian from Princeton University. Professor Antony Aumann: You may have heard of him. Oh, I read about it, yes. who has this program called GPTZero. And so you can plug the students essay into it and it's supposed to give you a percent chance or a likelihood that it was written by the computer rather than the student. You can a ChatGPT has its own sort of detector too. Professor Antony Aumann: The problem is that there's a lot of false positives. Mm-hmm. , um, and a lot of false negatives. And even more seriously, it's actually really, really easy to circumvent the detectors. And so I'll tell you, it's actually kind of funny a little bit. So the way the, the way the detector works is it, uh, it looks for regularity in thinking and writing. Professor Antony Aumann: Computers are very regular in the organization of their thoughts. Human beings, we're kind of a little bit chaotic. We're a d d, right? And so it deter, yeah, so it looks for that. But all you have to do is just insert some errors, like grammatical errors and spelling errors into it, and all of a sudden it thinks it's written by a human being. Susan Stone: Well, let me challenge you on this because are there acceptable uses that students can take that software and maybe it helps them create an outline or think of words that they wouldn't have? I mean, can you use it as a learning tool?  Professor Antony Aumann: A hundred percent. And in my other media appearance is I've been touting it's positive use as a tool to help students learn. Students help students how to write.  Professor Antony Aumann: So for me, there's like a big gulf between like naughty uses of it and non naughty uses of it. So like the bad use is just to cut and paste the essay that the chat wrote, uh, and present it as your own. But I'll tell you what I do, which is, so I'll write a rough draft of something. Professor Antony Aumann: I'll submit it to the chat and I'll ask it for feedback. Hey, what are some potential objections that I need to consider? What are some grammatical errors that I need to fix? And the chat often has really good things to say. And then I'll do the work of incorporating them myself. And I think that's a totally acceptable way for my students to use it. Susan Stone: Do you think, I'm gonna give a, an art example. My high schooler wants to go into art design, um, and she's really interested in illustration and she asked me a very interesting question and, What you talked about, your use of the, uh, tools in art. She's like, mom, do you think I'm gonna go to art school and my job will be taken over by computers and there will be no need for original art? Susan Stone: And of course I said no. Because you will always need human creativity. But am I wrong in saying that? Will her job be taken over? Will we need writers or will it all be created by computers?  Professor Antony Aumann: That is, uh, that's scary. The big question. I think the art question's a little bit easier to answer partly because I have skin in the game. Professor Antony Aumann: My wife is a graphic designer.  Kristina Supler: oh,  Susan Stone: I love this. I love this.  Professor Antony Aumann: So there's still a need for human beings when it comes to taste. Dolly is the name of the program that the same company puts out that'll gener generate the art images for you. But it generates a wide range of images and some of them are good and some of them are horrible. Professor Antony Aumann: You still need, and some of them might be good, but not good for that client. So you still need someone who has a good kind of aesthetic sensibility to figure out, okay, which of these things are helpful? Which of these things are good or bad? What are gonna reach people? What isn't gonna reach people? And so maybe the role of the graphic designer is gonna shift a little bit. Professor Antony Aumann: But that's not gonna go away. And I think there's always gonna people be people who want clients who want a personal touch. And Dolly can't give you that.  Susan Stone: Could Dolly create a Disney character?  Professor Antony Aumann: Absolutely. That's interesting. But you're gonna need someone to figure out whether, which Disney character is worth preserving and which one it wouldn't. It'll give you a hundred Disney characters.  Kristina Supler: That's really interesting. Susan and I, given the work that we do, working with students across the country of all different ages, we speak with a lot of educators and particularly in higher ed. And, and we're regularly involved in this discussion about students and pressure and work ethic. And some people say, oh, students just, they, they just don't wanna work anymore. There's some laziness. Kristina Supler: It seems to me, Susan, wouldn't you agree that there's also maybe a counter-argument that professors who are recycling tests year after year and essay prompts Oh, that's kind of lazy too. I mean, you  Susan Stone: know. Right. And before ChatGPT, and I'm dating this back to when I went to college, there have always been test banks housed by different sports organizations and Greek organizations. So if you were taking Professor Almond's class, you could access his test for 20 years and, you know, maybe Professor Alman needs to change his test period.  Kristina Supler: I did not propose, uh, advocating for cheating, but I, I sort of think it can cut both way. Susan Stone: Right, right. How about challenging students a little differently? Professor .  Professor Antony Aumann: So I guess I have a couple of things to say. I don't think my students are lazy. I just don't.  Kristina Supler: Good. I think that's stressed. I thank you. I, I think that's really important for students to hear that.  Professor Antony Aumann: They're overworked. They've got, my students have one, two jobs. Professor Antony Aumann: Mm-hmm. , they're trying to learn how to become adults. They're taking a really heavy load of classes. You know, maybe they're also on a sports team. And that's just like a lot of pressure when you're 18 or 19 years old. I mean, yeah, of course there are lazy people who exist in the world. But I like any kind of generalization about kids these days that just doesn't fly with me.  Professor Antony Aumann: But by the same token, like we as professors are also overtaxed, like the amount of administrative stuff we have to do. And I'm supposed to write another book and coming up with those tests, I think that you don't appreciate just like the astronomical amount of work that goes into it and yeah, we're gonna have to write new things going forward. Professor Antony Aumann: We're all, we're all really, really stressed.  Susan Stone: You know, that's very helpful because a lot of people don't know what faces higher ed. And so there's a reason that you write that one test and it's a great test and you wanna use it for year to year to free you up to do other creative work. Okay. Can I just offer, and you tell me what you think a low lowbrow solution to this problem? Kristina Supler: Ooh, I'm curious to hear .  Susan Stone: I, I, you know, I like the low hanging fruit Supler. You know, that. What's wrong with just having kids come in, hand them the, a little essay book, ask them a question and have them hand write an essay response to a test.  Kristina Supler: What a crazy idea. I can't imagine an educational environment with those conditions. Professor Antony Aumann: Yeah. You wanna go old school? Uh, I'll tell you two reasons why that's not gonna work. Please. The first reason it's not gonna work is that it made sense in perhaps your generation and my generation, where we were raised to write by hand. We were trained to write cursive. This generation of students didn't have that kind of training. And very few of my students can write neatly and quickly for any length of time at all. Professor Antony Aumann: So that's just like a practical concern. They just can't do it. The second thing is the bigger thing.  Kristina Supler: That's a mic drop. I apologize for interrupting you. That's a mic drop. But that has literally never occurred to me and I think that's it's really obvious. But yet it didn't occur to me and I think it's really insightful that just the handwriting barriers and challenges in our tech age now, students can't write and write and write. Susan Stone: You know what? The special ed attorney in me is very upset about that because you get specific brain function development by handwriting. And so what are we doing? But keep going. I, I'm just, I, I'm like, that's never occurred  Kristina Supler: to me. And that's really interesting to think about that. It's shocking.  Professor Antony Aumann: So the bigger thing is I'm not sure that just by having all of our assignments be handwritten in class, we're really teaching students how to write in the way that we want to write. Professor Antony Aumann: What that really exercises is your like speed journalistic abilities. But real writing is like taking your time to think about exactly what word is the right word and revising and revising and revising. And you just don't have the time to do that in the classroom. That's not what's going on there. Susan Stone: So what's the solution? Professor Antony Aumann: I have a utopian vision. . Okay.  Susan Stone: Share with us please. We're getting all Waldenesque here.  Professor Antony Aumann: Yeah. Well, I think that school has become, for lots of reasons that aren't bad reasons, a lot of hoop jumping. And maybe the dawn of ChatGPT is gonna remove all of that hoop jumping because now of course the chat can just jump through them for us. And maybe eventually return to what school ought to be about, which is love of learning for learning own sake. Susan Stone: You took the next question out of my mouth. Really. And it's funny because Kristina, last night we were talking about this, that. I, I would've never used ChatGPT. I've got, I've done a lot of soul searching and thinking back to me as a human being. But I didn't go to school with pressure from my parents to get the "A".  Kristina Supler: Well, I would say that I, I mean, regardless of family, external pressure for performance, for me, I, I too would like to think that if I were a student now, I wouldn't succumb to these temptations. Kristina Supler: But I also don't have any. I, I didn't go to college in a time when, you know, there was such easy, quick access to data. Yeah. Literally at my fingertips everywhere. And so again, I'm not condoning or justifying cheating, plagiarism, any academic cutting of corners. But I also recognize that students now, it's just, it's just a really different time in education. Kristina Supler: And I, I'm wondering what are your thoughts on how professors should adjust their teaching style to just be cognizant of the changing reality of the technology that is, you know, ever present?  Susan Stone: Well, especially since we don't like the pen and paper type solution. .  Professor Antony Aumann: I think that you have to lean into it. I would tell you if you were a student and you're like, you would never use it, I think you're making a big mistake. Professor Antony Aumann: Yeah. It's a tool that can be used for evil. But it's also a tool that can be used for good. And that tool is gonna exist out there whether we like it or not. The second this student graduates or leaves the halls in my classroom or whatever else, they're gonna be using it. Their next employer is gonna be asking them to use it. Professor Antony Aumann: So we have a responsibility to teach them how to use it well, rationally, competently in the classroom. So that's, I think that's where I'm going to as a teacher.  Susan Stone: Can we talk about, you do teach religion - God. Susan Stone: With, we are seeing a lot of cheating cases. Our, our practice started one or two a year, and now that aspect of our practice is almost weekly. We get an inquiry. I've been accused of cheating. Do you think students have lost a fear of God? And I'm not just talking about ChatGPT, but just cheating in general? Susan Stone: Do, do we need more God in our lives to keep us more on the straight and narrow?  Professor Antony Aumann: I don't know. It's this that's, Susan Stone: You are a religion professor. We're going deep.  Professor Antony Aumann: Yeah. I don't know. Certainly God provides a powerful motivation to do good if you believe that God is watching or that God will reward you or punish you. Or if not God, karma, like that does give you an extra incentive. Professor Antony Aumann: But I don't know if, somehow humanity has gotten worse as religion recedes to the background in our society. Like I, I don't think my students are somehow like worse human beings because they're less religious than they were a generation ago.  Susan Stone: Are they less religious?  Professor Antony Aumann: They're less affiliated with institutional religion. And that's pretty well established with empirical data. Professor Antony Aumann: We can ask people if they affiliate with some kind of institutional religion. We can ask them how often they go to worship services. And there has been like a really market downturn in that, at least in the United States since the 1950s and sixties. Why? I don't know. I mean, that's, that's an interesting question. Professor Antony Aumann: One thing to say is that there is a correlation between being religious and facing difficult times, financially, personally, health-wise and whatever else. Uh, and this is true not just in the United States, but across the world. The least religious countries in the world are these Scandinavian countries which have the highest standards of living. Professor Antony Aumann: In the United States, the least religious states are the ones with the highest standards of living. The most religious ones are the ones with the least. So you might think that as standards of living go up, people's felt need for some kind of security blanket diminishes. That's one explanation. I'm not saying it's the best. Susan Stone: Yeah. You know what's interesting about that? I remember going to a lecture and they said there's. Um, Atheist in a foxhole. And that when you're facing a military situation or a crisis, even the, the most pronounced atheist will say, Dear God, help me. And why is, you know, so that's really interesting that we lose that sense of, and I'm not saying God in any particular religion. Susan Stone: I like how you included karma, but do we lose gratitude when things are good? Professor Antony Aumann: Yeah, I think there's a lack of gratitude there, but I will say a flip side of us becoming less religious is that I do think that we are looking for peace of mind in the face of, um, the anxiety that modern life brings upon us. And so there does seem like an increased interest in spiritual practices like meditation. Professor Antony Aumann: Like mindfulness that are, if not, our western religions of old still quasi-religious because they help us on another front, even if it's not like I'm in a foxhole. Kristina Supler: Do you feel, I, I wanna connect back to a comment that you made earlier in this episode about when we were discussing laziness in students. And you said that students just have a lot of pressure, both externally and in the school environment. Do you think that, what are your thoughts about the amount of pressure that higher ed institutions are placing on students? Kristina Supler: Do you think it's the right amount? Do you think it's too much pressure? I mean, what are your thoughts on the realities of many students who are struggling to get by and paying their way through school? But also you're in college to learn and struggle with tough concepts and master skills.  Susan Stone: I don't know, Kristina. Are we in college to learn or do we go to college so we can get a career and get a good job? Susan Stone: Because college now is around 80,000 a year in some institutions. And I, I wanna challenge that notion. You can learn by going to an art museum. You can learn by reading a book. But are we going to college so we can get a job?  Professor Antony Aumann: I think that that's a little bit of both, right? I mean, if I ask my students, yes, to some degree they're there just because they want a piece of paper so they get a good job. Professor Antony Aumann: And especially with the cost of education on their minds. I think that that's like an extra stressor just to focus on the good grades. But I don't think that we can say it. It's just like one or the other. Even in any individual student, I think a lot of them, when they have a good class with a good professor, Art will say to me like, oh yeah, like I really, I really learned something in this class. Even if I won't use it. Professor Antony Aumann: And to be honest, most of the classes I teach in philosophy or religion are not directly related to the jobs that these students will have when they graduate. Uh,  Kristina Supler: European history major here with a degree from a very, very expensive institution. I loved my college years. No bearing or relevance whatsoever to my job. But it was a night, it was an enjoyable four year time,  Susan Stone: and I had a very practical mm-hmm. undergraduate education that I use every day. So, do college students have a sense of self? I mean, are they really, are they spiritual beings or are they nihlist?. Oh, Kristina Supler: Big question.  Susan Stone: Has anyone else asked you that? On a podcast to a professor? .  Professor Antony Aumann: I think that a lot of them have those nihilistic worries. And maybe it's tied to the lack of religion. Because religion isn't just solace in difficult times. It also gives us a sense of purpose and direction in our lives. It tells us why are we here and what are we supposed to be doing and where are we going and why does it all matter? Professor Antony Aumann: And so if you lose a lot of that and when is the time, then people really have their religious doubts? Late adolescence, early adulthood, that's when a lot of it sets in. And so I ask a lot of my students, you know, is , does nothing matter anymore? And I think a lot of 'em will admit that they worry about that. But they're, I think within that like overwhelming worry, there's a lot of 'em still trying to carve out some sense of significance in their lives and hoping for that. Susan Stone: Would the temptation to cheat be reduced if we could regain in students a sense of purpose in self? Professor Antony Aumann: I don't know. I think that a lot of crimes are crimes of opportunity. You know, like that's where Christine  Kristina Supler: says, I totally agree. I just as an aside, I have a background in criminal defense and Yes, I agree with that a hundred percent.  Susan Stone: That's what we were talking about last night. Getting ready for this podcast. Professor Antony Aumann: Well that forces you to think about it a little bit. You know, you're like, oh, I have to go through all this work to cheat. I have to find it. You know, someone who will write the paper for me and pay them. But if it's just. , it's free and it'll take you 30 seconds. I don't know if even that reflects as much on students' characters as cheating did in the past where it was a lot of work. Professor Antony Aumann: It now seems more like an impulsive action by a stressed out individual.  Susan Stone: What other thoughts do you have on this topic? Because you have such an interesting perspective that you'd like to share with parents out there listening to this podcast.  Kristina Supler: And I, I like that a lot of your feedback is not just solely rooted in, how dare they and the judgment for, because let's face it, in my opinion, that's not helpful. Kristina Supler: So I, I'm really grateful for a discussion that is considering more in the bigger picture.  Professor Antony Aumann: Yeah. That's not to treat them as human beings, just to, to look at it. I also think that that's like just all those professors out there that just wanna play cop and catch the students who are cheating. I really think that that's naive. That this technology exists, whether we like it or not, it's gonna be out there. Professor Antony Aumann: Students are gonna be using it. Again, we have an obligation as parents, as teachers to help our students learn how to use it well, rather than just say it's forbidden fruit.  Susan Stone: Any other thoughts? Because I just love that.  Kristina Supler: I think that's well said though. The, the analogy, it's forbidden fruit. I guess what words of advice or encouragement would you have for those stressed out students? Susan Stone: I love that. Good question.  Professor Antony Aumann: Talk to your professors. . I think that most of us are pretty understanding human beings if you continue to keep the lines of communication open. What I don't like is the student who just drops off and doesn't talk to me at all. If you're saying, Hey, I'm stressed out. I can't do it today, I need an extension. I'm more than happy to provide that.  Professor Antony Aumann: No, not everybody's like that. But I think most of us are pretty understanding human beings. We're not the boogeyman that some students worry that we are.  Susan Stone: I wish that I would've had the opportunity to take your class, you know? So I, I really appreciate you coming on and I know you've been exploding since. Susan Stone: What, tell us about how your, uh, career's changed since the New York Times article.  Kristina Supler: I have to think it's been a whirlwind, right? I mean, all of a sudden your name is everywhere.  Professor Antony Aumann: There's been a lot of a lot of media appearances. And it's been fun. It's been nice but it's hard to do that and continue to do my regular job. Professor Antony Aumann: It's not like all of a sudden I don't have to teach. And so what gives on that front is my personal life. It continues to hard, be hard to have work-life balance and you know, without an incredible wife who's happy to support me and love me, even while I come home stressed out at the end of the night, uh, I don't know if I'd get through this. Susan Stone: Is this gonna change your career?  Kristina Supler: Do you have new thoughts for research or,  Professor Antony Aumann: I don't know. I don't think so.  Kristina Supler: Or is that, is that confidential?  Professor Antony Aumann: Yeah, , I, uh, I tried to send President Biden an email telling him I would head up his ta, his ChatGPT Task Force, but he didn't get back to me.  Kristina Supler: It was busy last night, but maybe today. Kristina Supler: Check your email. Check your right. Yeah. Right. . Well, thank you. This was really such a pleasure. We, we, we laughed. We talked about technology. We talked about religion and philosophy. We covered it all.  Susan Stone: I was gonna say, is there anything we didn't cover?  Professor Antony Aumann: No, I think this was great. It was so much fun. Thanks for having me on. Kristina Supler: Thank you. Thank you.  

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Katherine McLaughlin, the Founder, CEO and Director of Training at Elevatus.  Elevatus provides training for People With Intellectual Disabilities in Sex Education.  Topics that they discuss are related to.  The conversation revolves around people with intellectual disabilities in three main areas: the importance of sex education, how sex education plays a role in parenting, why educators and trainers with intellectual disabilities make the best trainers for others with disabilities. Links: Elevatus Website https://www.elevatustraining.com/ A Change to Parent Website https://achancetoparent.net/ Show Notes: (02:14) What is Elevates and What is the Curriculum (03:48)  How a Life-Changing Accident Lead to Elevatus (07:41)  People with Intellectual Disabilities and Sex (09:19)  Teaching How to Deal with Sexual Feelings (10:44)  Is there a Minimum IQ For People to Access Elevatus' Curriculum? (13:04)  Different Types of Sex Education Training for Education, Parents and Staff (14:37)  How do Values Fit Into Sexual Education (16:54)  Restrictions on Abortion: How Does This Fit Into Sexual Education? (17:55)  What if People With Intellectual Disabilities Want to Become Parents? (20:31)  How People with Intellectual Disabilities Can Talk With Their Protective Parents (21:49)  What is AASECT?  How can it Help People with Intellectual Disabilities? (23:04) “Nothing About Us Without Us” - How this Phrase Has Created A Movement Susan Stone: We deal every day with students with disabilities and we talk a lot to those clients about sex. Obviously, most of the time that's how they find us. They were accused of sexual misconduct and. . What we find when we talk to our clients is that despite their disability, they are, those students are the same in their desire for companionship and sexual experiences. Susan Stone: What we also find when we talk to educators, Especially for K through 12 is that this population is often overlooked when it comes to sex education and there are specific challenges with students with disabilities in getting the education that they need.  Kristina Supler: That's right, Susan, and we're so pleased to be joined today because this is such an interesting. issue that comes up in so many of our cases, whether they're campus Title IX cases, special education cases, even some of our criminal cases. We're dealing with people in the this population and this lack of sex education is a recurring theme. So we're really pleased to be joined by today's guest, Katherine McLaughlin, who is the founder, c e o, and lead trainer for Elevatus Training.. Kristina Supler: As a national expert on sexuality and intellectual and developmental disabilities, she trains professionals, parents, and individuals to become sexual self-advocates. She's the author of Sexuality Education for People with Developmental Disabilities Curriculum, and as a person in a wheelchair, Katherine is disabled herself and has her own experiences that I'm sure undoubtedly inform her work. Susan Stone: So welcome Katherine.  Katherine McLaughlin: Thank you. Great to be here.  Susan Stone: So that was a big intro to talk about elevatus, and now it's time to break it down for our listeners. So let's start really broad. Tell us about Elevatus in your curriculum.  Katherine McLaughlin: Yeah, so we are a, basically an education service. So we have many different kinds of training, some in person, some online, as well as curriculum and tools that people can use to teach about sexuality education. Susan Stone: What does that mean? Help us, I'm sorry. I don't understand. Help me when you say tools, can you Yeah. Specific, yeah. Help us understand.  Katherine McLaughlin: Absolutely. Yeah. So the, for example, the sexuality education curriculum that I developed years ago with a group of self-advocates, so people with intellectual developmental disabilities. Katherine McLaughlin: And there's 22 lessons in that curriculum, and it really helps people, go through, there's a script, there's handouts, because that's the, that's the hard thing is it, it, it's hard enough to talk about this topic. But then you have to go find pictures and tools. And so how can we make it easier for people by, by creating these tools that they can then use to have these classes or discussions? Susan Stone: You know, I just have to. Remark. I have a really good friend who's starting a curriculum on cooking. Mm-hmm. and is doing pictures and videos and using computer software imaging to even explain things like how to make a peanut butter jelly sandwich. How to make a tuna fish salad sandwich. So I can only imagine how complicated it is to make a curriculum around sex  Susan Stone: education. Kristina Supler: Yeah. Katherine, I have to ask cuz I'm, I'm quite curious what brought you to this work.  Katherine McLaughlin: Hmm. Yeah. Well, as you mentioned in my intro, I, in my twenties experienced an, an accident and started using a wheelchair. I have a spinal cord injury, so I just having that experience and. . I was really the same person the day before the accident as I was the day after, but yet I was being treated differently. Katherine McLaughlin: And so I started to become more aware about disability and how people treat people with disability. So that was happening and at the same time, I was working for Planned Parenthood of Northern New England and special educators and. Developmental disability agencies reached out to me saying, can you help us with this? Katherine McLaughlin: So both of those things happened at the same time. And so I just started working with this population and, and has taken off some from there.  Kristina Supler: When, when you say this population, I mean, disability can be a very broad term at ranging from perhaps someone with a spinal cord injury or blindness autism. Kristina Supler: So what disabilities does your curriculum cover or who's your sort of target?  Katherine McLaughlin: Yeah. So, um, there's so many different terms. But I would say people who with neurodiversity, uh, so it could be someone with autism but it could also be someone with down syndrome. But it's usually intellectual developmental disability. Katherine McLaughlin: Sometimes there's physical as well. But this is a population that needs very concrete, like you were saying around cooking. Very concrete. Skills and, and descriptions and to really understand. So apps, taking abstract concepts and breaking them down and making them very concrete.  Susan Stone: Does it cover students with blindness? Susan Stone: Do you have a curriculum in braille or. Other physical disabilities.  Katherine McLaughlin: Yeah, it's not intended for that population. But we do have some people that might need the curriculum in large print. We haven't had anyone requested in braille yet, so we haven't done that. But we have had quite a few people who have attended who are deaf. Katherine McLaughlin: And so we have interpreters on our training, you know, on Zoom with us. . So, I mean, I think what you're bringing up is this idea of access and how do we, you know, people with disabilities, whether they're blind or deaf or they have an intellectual disability, are, are, don't have the same access that other people do. Katherine McLaughlin: And it could be to buildings or it could be to education. And so I'm really trying to eliminate those barriers. And you know, to be honest, I was, I am very interested in physical disability and sexuality, but there was less interest in. I mean, I'm not sure that people with physical disabilities have less interest, but as far as as a culture, we tend to look at things as problems, right? Katherine McLaughlin: So we're not proactive about anything. So, people with intellectual disabilities might be, um, charged with a sex crime or might do something publicly, you know, that you're supposed to do in private. And so it tended to be a population where people were looking for help. Where people with physical, I think people are interested, but there's less of an urgency maybe around that. Susan Stone: Yeah. Urgency or. Yeah, I would like to say that you don't, Kristina and I have worked on a lot of cases where on criminal cases. Mm-hmm. , where there have been intellectual disabilities. But you're right, we have not worked on a case where it was more of a physical disability, like a spinal cord injury. Susan Stone: Right. But let's take the spinal cord injury, let's talk about it. . Mm-hmm. , tell us about your curriculum in terms of what are the sexual needs of that population and what do you communicate with them? Do you go as granular as physicians in sex, how to have sex?  Katherine McLaughlin: Yeah, so, so this, the po, the population I'm focused on is not spinal cord injury. Katherine McLaughlin: That's what I have . But the ones I'm talking to are people with intellectual disabilities. So we do talk about what is sex, different kinds of sex, and what does that mean? A big piece that I work on with this population is bodily autonomy as well. Like it's your body and your life and you get to decide what's right for you. Katherine McLaughlin: So not only is it talking about sex and, but it's also like you get to decide what you want in your life or don't want in your life as well. But yeah, it's not like a how to, but it's more of a, these are the different types of sexual acts that people do with, with one. Well, but  Susan Stone: I'm gonna challenge you a little bit on this because I think that there are a lot of, um, students in that population, or young people who are confused. Susan Stone: They don't know what it means to masturbate, where to masturbate. How to  Katherine McLaughlin: masturbate. Mm-hmm. , when to masturbate, when to masturbate. We've had a case, we've had  Kristina Supler: many cases involving masturbation gone wrong, let's put it that way.  Katherine McLaughlin: And  Susan Stone: we find that sex education will talk a lot about bodily autonomy, but it neglects the big issue. Susan Stone: I'm having these feelings, which every human has. How? How do I satisfy that?  Katherine McLaughlin: Yeah, yeah. Well, well, first thing is not everyone has sexual feelings, which. , you know, kind of a new thing for us to think about that there are people that really do feel asexual. And I'm not talking about people with disabilities, just the general population. Katherine McLaughlin: So some people don't. But I do teach. Yeah. But I do teach, um, what are sexual feelings? What are those feelings? Now I. . I do get into detail and I say, okay, so if you have those sexual feelings, what are your choices around those sexual feelings? So first you can try to stuff 'em and ignore 'em, and most people say that doesn't work. Katherine McLaughlin: You can acknowledge that you feel those sexual feelings for someone. Just keep it to yourself, keep it private. or you can masturbate, which is touching your sexual parts, but you have to do it in a private place and really concrete about what private means. Or you could be sexual with another person. Katherine McLaughlin: That also would have to be in private and you'd have to get consent from the other person. am I talking specifically how you touch this or that? Not necessarily. But there we have lots of resources too that people can learn more about. Like for example, masturbation. There's a video that people can watch to learn how to masturbate that have intellectual developmental disabilities. Katherine McLaughlin: It's not something I would show in a class, but it's a resource that I would tell someone about, or I, you know, parents have said to me, can I, do you have access to that so I can show it to my son or my daughter, or so I do think we're getting to some of those deeper issues, like you're talking about beyond bodily autonomy. Katherine McLaughlin: But yeah, so maybe that, I don't know if that, if that satisfies your curiosity.  Susan Stone: Well, this is real talk, so we gotta get real with each other. It real, keep it real. Is there a minimum IQ you need to have to access your curriculum?  Katherine McLaughlin: Yeah, so I don't really base it on IQ as much as maybe certain skills or if somebody were there to assist the person. Katherine McLaughlin: Prompt them, guide them you know, as a support for learning. Then that's the group. But that we also took the curriculum, the 22 lessons, and we created commu communication boards and cards so that people who are non-speaking. Are also able to participate in the class. I find that people who are non-speaking can do thumbs up and thumbs down, but they're not engaged in the same kind of way. Katherine McLaughlin: So we worked with a special educator and she created these tools now we're taking all the lessons and we're making them for people who might have more significant disabilities and adapting them for that population as well. So I think in the beginning I was starting out, no one with a disability or an intellectual disability is receiving sexuality education. Katherine McLaughlin: So here we go. Let's start with a group that can have discussions and, you know, learn at a. Certain way now we're gonna add these communication boards and cards, and now we're gonna learn for people that might not be able to graph some of those concepts so that everyone has access because people with more profound disabilities are at higher, much higher risk of being taken advantage of as well, because they're dependent on people for care. Katherine McLaughlin: Yeah.  Kristina Supler: So that's very interesting. I, I, Theme you've mentioned of access and providing access. Let's face it, talking about sex is often difficult for a lot of people. Susan and I in our law practice, we end up talking about sex inevitably every single day. It's, it's every day. It's part and parcel with our work, and I'm, I'm sure the same is true for you. Kristina Supler: So yeah, it, it's something that we're very comfortable doing. But I know parents in particular, With even neurotypical children struggle with the sex talks, and I say talks plural because I think there should probably be more than one. Let's face it. So my question for you is tell us about how you create the curriculum to, uh, Help train parents to have conversations with their children and other individuals  Susan Stone: with disabilities? Susan Stone: Or is it a separate curriculum that Elevatus, can ha you can spy or purchase?  Katherine McLaughlin: Yeah, so it is a separate curriculum. So we have a three day training that has three curriculum. One is the sexuality education, one that I've been talking. One is for leading parent workshops and one is for training other staff because it does seem like you have to have all these pieces in place. Katherine McLaughlin: Or you're gonna get these mixed messages from parents, you know, and compared to the class. So how do we train everyone to be able to address this? And in the parent training, it's a lot around, you know, just what's typical human sexual development. How do you answer questions that your child might have? Katherine McLaughlin: How do you bring up the conversation? How do you address sexual behaviors as well? Like some of the, the issues you're talking about, but from the parent perspective. So they're in a restaurant, they go to use the restroom, they come out and their child is. masturbating in public, right? What do you do so that you're not shaming the child, but you also are, are teaching them about public and private at the same time? Katherine McLaughlin: Um, so it helps parents answer questions, respond to behaviors and then the staff training, it's a lot of that as well. But for staff, there's more of a focus on. What are your values around sexuality? And it's okay to have values. It's important to have values, but in your professional role, you have to set them aside because a lot of staff don't have the skills to talk about this. Katherine McLaughlin: And all they have is their values. So they rely on values to teach versus information and skills. And so you mean I just  Susan Stone: wanna challenge you Yeah. Values or. .  Katherine McLaughlin: It's kind of both. Yeah, so for example so we have a list of s scenarios and staff look at that and it's how are you, you know, is it okay for a 16 year old to have sexual intercourse? Katherine McLaughlin: Is it okay for, uh, Uh, person with a penis to refuse to use condoms. Is it okay for someone to have three abortions? Right? So those kinds of topics, and it's okay to have, um, uncomfortable feelings, gut feelings for yourself personally. You wouldn't do that or that. But when we're in a professional role, we have to learn to set those aside and be there for the individual because it's not our, it's not our role to share our values. Katherine McLaughlin: So that's another piece of it is just getting clear about what yours are, cuz then you're less likely. For them to come up, you know, or you're at least more aware of what your values are. And then if someone says, I'm 16 and I wanna have sex, that we don't say, oh my God, you're too young. Yes or  Kristina Supler: no, don't, you know, put a stamp of approval on it or, you know, dismiss it as something that's wrong, inappropriate, whatever it might be. Kristina Supler: But  Susan Stone: Katherine, have you changed the curriculum at all with the abortion issue in some states now? Putting. Deep restrictions on access. And I can't imagine, have you dealt with people who tell you or report pregnancies with people who, uh, women who are girls who are severely intellectually disabled? Kristina Supler: I, I, I think it's such a challenging landscape to navigate, to begin with. And then if you are a member of the, you know, if you have a disability and in navigating it can be. So difficult.  Susan Stone: Yeah, we don't talk about this. Everybody's talking about abortion as it relates to unpr unplanned pregnancies for typical women, and we talk about how you can always access the next day, plan B or emergency contraception. Susan Stone: Well, what do we do when someone who's severely disabled probably doesn't even know? About, I I, right? My, all of a sudden I'm thinking about this topic and this issue and my mind is going p  Katherine McLaughlin: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Because if you're not, if you don't have sexuality education you might have to rely on things like abortion if you're not ready to have a child. Katherine McLaughlin: Right. And so you can't even prevent it, um, when you don't have the information. And then some of the laws are really connected to is it okay for the life of the mother or inces or rape? And if there's a higher rate of sexual abuse for this population? And they're not allowed to in their state access abortion. Katherine McLaughlin: It's back to access, but I haven't heard anything specifically yet cuz I feel like it's just starting to unfold. But to me it just, i i, it makes me wanna do more sexuality education, so at least people have the tools to make decisions before something happens that they can't terminate a pregnancy because of their state. Susan Stone: Have you dealt with situations where young couples come to you or education about they want to be parents and whether they're capable of being parents?a Katherine McLaughlin: Oh, that's a great question. Yeah. So there's a group now. And it's the website is www.achancetoparent.net. And it is for people with intellectual developmental disabilities that are wanting to become parents or our parents and many of the self-advocates work and give advice to other parents that have, they have children themselves. Katherine McLaughlin: And what they've done is some research. They provided support for people with intellectual developmental disabilities in being parents, and they found that they were less likely to lose their children because they had the support. And the, it's the same thing as sexuality, right? If you don't have the education, you're not gonna be as successful. Katherine McLaughlin: And so this is a new group, so I know, I mean, I've been doing this work for a long time. There wasn't anything for people with intellectual developmental disabilities around parent and learning about parent education or very little, and so a lot of them did lose their children. .  Kristina Supler: Ah, Katherine, you talk a lot about sexual self-advocacy, so tell us more about what that, what does that really mean? Susan Stone: Yes. Especially in, in, now we're talking about maybe people with disabilities wanna be mommies and daddies. Mm-hmm. . So what.  Katherine McLaughlin: Right. So sexual self. So if you think of self-advocacy just on its own, you know, it's speaking up to change your story, um, support others you know, make decisions, problem solve. So if we add sexuality or sex to that or, um, sexual. Katherine McLaughlin: Then we're talking about things within relationships as well as about relationships. So I, it's two parts for people with disabilities because the general population, we assume that most people will be in some kind of sexual romantic relationship at some point, right? Parents and. teenagers might disagree on when, but we sort of assume that, but for people with disabilities, they have to speak up for their right. Katherine McLaughlin: Their right and their desire to be in relationships. I mean, you started it off saying a population  Kristina Supler: that's particularly vulnerable to abuse as well,  Katherine McLaughlin: correct. . Mm-hmm. . Yes, yes, yes. So, yeah. But, so speaking up that you wanna be in a relationship and then speaking up if someone is saying, asking you to do something that you don't wanna do and you feel uncomfortable being able to speak up. Katherine McLaughlin: So not only, it's sort of two parts, right? It's within relationships. And then it's just about relationships. So how do you,  Susan Stone: as a parent, you wanna protect? Could it even be self-advocacy saying, I want a boyfriend or a girlfriend or a partner just like everyone else. You need to let me be like everyone else. Susan Stone: Yes,  Katherine McLaughlin: yes, yes. Because what happens is a lot of self-advocates say when people deny or restrict. They work around them and so they sneak right, like, like most of us would do if we were restricted from doing things we wanted to do. We sneak. and then if something bad happens, we can't go to that person. So wouldn't we want to be involved in helping them sort all this out? Katherine McLaughlin: Rather than trying to control or restrict, and many self-advocates say to their parents, let me make mistakes. I know it's hard, but let me make mistakes because it then I'm, I'm alive and I'm growing and I'm changing.  Susan Stone: We, um, love certificates. Kristine and I are, have a certificate in restorative justice, positive discipline, crisis communication. Susan Stone: You name it. You  Kristina Supler: name it. We've done it.  Susan Stone: We've learned about it. We are lifelong learners and we're always looking to add different tools to make. , better people, better parents, better lawyers, just to enrich our knowledge. Mm-hmm. , and I noticed you are a certifi. Sexuality educator by A A S E C T AASECT. If I butchered that, help me tell us about the organization, what it stands for, and about your certification. Susan Stone: Heck, maybe we need to do that too.  Katherine McLaughlin: You might, you know,  Kristina Supler: I'm hearing next year's  Katherine McLaughlin: certificate. . I, I can feel it. Yes. So AASECT is, American Association for Sexuality, educators, counselors, and therapists. And in order to get certified by AASECT, you have to teach a certain number of hours for an educator or, or council, a certain number of hours for a counselor or therapist. Katherine McLaughlin: And you also have to learn some core knowledge as well. So it's both. So are we out, Kristine?  Susan Stone: What's that? Are we out? We can't do.  Katherine McLaughlin: You'd have to teach a lot more, but I don't know. That's a really interesting question. Could you get certified by them? It takes teaching. I  Susan Stone: would say we're teaching on this podcast. Kristina Supler: Well, and we're right there you go. Working with clients in crisis every day with, you know, various. Sexuality issues that are tied into legal issues. But at any rate, I digress. ?  Susan Stone: Yeah, it's always about us ,  Katherine McLaughlin: right? Right. No, but I think, so first you could come to the three day training and what we have is we do an assessment at the end and people get a certificate of completion. Katherine McLaughlin: So it's, it's not being a certified, cuz you haven't necessarily applied to AASECT yet, but you would learn an awful lot about teaching, talking to parents, talking. self-advocates talking to other staff. So that might be the first step.  Kristina Supler: And you have a saying on your website, nothing about us without us. Kristina Supler: Tell us, tell our listeners what does that mean and who  Susan Stone: coined  Katherine McLaughlin: that phrase? Yeah, so it's part of the self-advocacy movement and when I first started doing this work, I thought, Okay. I'm an educator. I'm gonna create these lessons and I'm gonna teach 'em. And I went to work with Green Mountain Self Advocates there in Vermont. Katherine McLaughlin: And they said right out of the gate they said nothing about us without us. Which means, whoever you're gonna teach, we need to be involved in creating the materials. And so they reviewed all the curriculum lessons and made, we made edits based on their, their input. And then they said, oh yeah, and we also wanna be one of the teacher. Katherine McLaughlin: Of the curriculum. So it's actually designed because of Green Mountain self-advocates and them saying nothing about us without us. It's designed to be team taught with a self-advocate, someone with an intellectual developmental disability and a professional team. And they teach classes. So for example, there's a project in Michigan and they have 28 teams at this point. Katherine McLaughlin: So pretty much anywhere in Michigan you can access sexuality education. And one of the teachers is someone with an intellectual developmental disability. So it's  Susan Stone: nothing about us. Us without us. Exactly. Oh, light bulb  Katherine McLaughlin: moment. Yes, yes, yes. Right. Yeah. Katherine, it's been  Kristina Supler: a real pleasure speaking with you today, and I think you've offered so much for our listeners. Kristina Supler: I'm just wondering before we wrap this up, do you have any final tips or thoughts you wanna share with our listeners or  Susan Stone: anything we didn't ask you that you wish we would've?  Katherine McLaughlin: Ah, yeah. I think, you know, just kind of one, one little bit of advice is, is sort of thinking about the messages that we give in our culture about sexuality. Katherine McLaughlin: And, many of us, when we think about growing up, got like, don't do that. Or, or do you, I don't know if you saw the mean girls movie when the physical education teacher Oh yeah. . Oh yeah. Right. You're gonna, if you have sex, you'll get chlamydia and you'll die. Like these fear-based messages and that, why do we do that? Katherine McLaughlin: And to have people really think like, why do I give negative messages? This is supposed to be a positive part of people's lives, and yet we're so anxious and fearful about it. You know? What would it be like if we just switched that and said, Like people do in Denmark. This is part of people's life. Let's educate early. Katherine McLaughlin: And so I just, I would say think about the messages you're giving around sexuality and are you giving positive messages or not, and why not?  Susan Stone: Did you hear that Everyone out there .  Kristina Supler: Well, thank you again. It's been a real treat chatting with you today and, uh, we're so pleased you're able to  Susan Stone: join us. This has been a eye-opening conversation and I'm gonna forever think about that inclusivity in the concept about nothing, about us without us. Susan Stone: I love that inclusivity. Thank, thank you, Katherine. Thank you. And to everyone out there, really look at that Elevatus website. There's some good stuff out. 

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Eugene Volokh, a leading First Amendment Law Professor from UCLA.  Topics they discuss are related to the First Amendment.  The conversation includes how the internet impacts Free Speech, what responsibilities the Social Media Platforms have towards free speech, and how Free Speech impacts abortion, fraternities and sororities, as well as housing laws. Links: Eugene Volokh's Bio (UCLA Webpage) Free Speech Rules Videos:  https://FreeSpeechRules.org Show Notes: (02:40)  Has the internet changed the First Amendment on Free Speech (03:33)  How the Supreme Court views Online versus Offline Free Speech (04:41)  How Search Engines Can Reveal Your Court Case (06:08)  How Posting on Social Media Can Open You To a Lawsuit (06:44)  What Posts Can You Go to Jail For (08:05)  Do Social Platforms Have the Legal Right To Remove People From Their Platforms? (13:35)  Do Social Platforms Have the Legal Right to Curtail Hate Speech (15:40)  What is Doxing?  How Can Social Platforms Prevent This from Happening to You (16:58)  What Courts Say About Publishing Your Information (19:39)  Should Schools Police What Students Are Publishing (20:14)  What Rights to Public Universities Have For Policing Students Posts (21:39)  Private Universities: What Rights Do They Have For Policing Posts (23:07)  Can Admissions Departments Reject Students for Previous Posts (25:33)  How First Amendment Protections Extend to Clothing (26:20)  How a Toy Gun Can Land a Student In Hot Water (28:16)  Students Today and Views on the First Amendment (30:49)  Can People Protest For Protections Related to Criminal Conduct (32:24)  Can People Get Exemptions By Saying a Law is Against Their Religion? (33:10)  What is the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (35:07)  Can Businesses Prevent Men and Women From Working Together Based On Religious Beliefs? (36:58)  Can a Woman Get A Religious Exemption For Abortion Where It's Illegal (40:30)  How Courts Protect Your Right to Expressive Association (41:49)  Under What Circumstances Can You Exclude Someone From Living With You Based on Race, Sex, Sexual Orientation (44:03)  First Amendments Rights and Fraternities and Sororities. Transcript: Susan Stone: Kristina, can we geek out today and talk about the First Amendment?  Kristina Supler: I think we do that every day, but  Susan Stone: let's, okay. But let's talk on our podcast about the First Amendment, because our practice is often at the intersection of free speech when it impacts and conflicts with different types of student issues, like cancel culture or when students get disciplined, or Greek life issues like the Freedom of Association, uh, less often discussed First Amendment issue. Susan Stone: And it's difficult to balance the idea of the free exchange of ideas versus saying whatever you want, just because you wanna say it when you wanna say it and where you wanna say it. And it seems like everybody today is a lot less tolerant of views that aren't their own and cancel culture is becoming a very large part of our practice, which is why we launched our reputation management section. Kristina Supler: We are very pleased to be joined today by Professor Eugene Volokh who is a leading First Amendment scholar at U C L A, where he teaches free speech law, religious freedom law, church, and state relations law, among many other classes. Before coming to UCLA, he clerked for Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, and the US Supreme Court, and also for Judge Alex Kazinski on the Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, who's also very well known,  Susan Stone: uh, and a court we've practiced  Kristina Supler: in. That's right. Yep. Um, Eugene is renowned for his textbook on the First Amendment, and he's actually one of the most cited law review article authors in our country. He's also the founder and co-author of the Highly Regarded Legal Blog, the Volokh Conspiracy, which is now hosted at reason.com. Kristina Supler: Thanks for joining us today. Oh, very much.  Eugene Volokh: My pleasure.  Susan Stone: And I should say I seasoned him. He was at a conference that we were at and you saw me inching up to Eugene, and I'm thinking I am going to make this person my friend, and talk about the First Amendment with him. So thank you for being on our podcast. Susan Stone: We're gonna start with a question broadly for our listeners. Eugene, how has the internet changed the way we view the First Amendment and freedom of speech in a very big way? And then we will drill down and funnel down that question  Eugene Volokh: well, depends on, uh, whom you mean by we. It hasn't so far, at least seemingly changed the way the justices view free speech or generally lower court judges, or in many ways, lawyers generally speaking the same kind of speech that is constitutionally protected offline is constitutionally protected online and vice versa. Eugene Volokh: Occasionally there have been times when. First Amendment law has turned a lot on the medium of expression, so for example, radio and television. Broadcast radio, television, not cable, let's say. Were, uh, were and probably still are seen as more regulatable for historical reasons. From the 19 teens to the 1950s, movies were seen as not really protected by the First Amendment, but the internet ever since near its birth as a popular medium. Eugene Volokh: Back in 1997, the Supreme Court said, speech on the internet is, Treated under the same rules as speech off line. So as a legal matter the internet hasn't changed First Amendment law much. Now I do think that people's reactions to various free speech questions may be affected by the internet. So, for example, I think a lot of people view things like Facebook and Twitter, those kinds of social media platforms, YouTube also and TikTok and various others as kind of part of their right to free speech and they get upset, understandably. Eugene Volokh: When those platforms restrict them, even though they're private platforms. So people would've probably said if the, if the New York Times refuses to publish my letter to the editor, well, of course, you know, they only publish as few too bad, but. But that's fine. Plus they get to decide where they want to publish and what they don't. Eugene Volokh: But I think the same people might very well bristle if Twitter or Facebook de deletes their posts for understandable reasons. Again. and, and there's an interesting question of whether that should affect the legal understanding, but but my guess is that at least it does affect people's understanding. Eugene Volokh: Another example has to do with access to court records. There's a longstanding tradition That material and court records is open to the public. Open to everybody. Yes. But it used to be before the internet. That meant that if you really wanted to get something on a court record, like maybe if you were a reporter and you were being to pay to write about lawsuits, you'd go to the courthouse, you'd go to the basement, you'd look at the, uh, at the files and you'd write about it. Eugene Volokh: But most, most court records would be basically invisible to. Now that they're all on the internet and often directly searchable, people get really upset that every case that they've been involved in, whether it was a witness as a plaintiffs, the defendant is a criminal defendant, as a victim, is now on the internet. Eugene Volokh: And people Google their names and they, they figure out uh, the stuff about them. So again, I do think the internet changes people's perceptions of information, of speech and the like, even if it hasn't changed the legal rules, at least. That's  Kristina Supler: actually a perfect segue to the next question I wanted to ask you, which is when you are speaking to, let's just say lay people, not, not judges or lawyers and, and speaking generally or more broadly about the First Amendment, what do you say? Kristina Supler: In terms of people who sort of have this idea that, well, on the internet, I'm, I'm an anonymous person, I can say whatever I want. It's the internet, it's the worldwide web. What do you say in terms of, well, maybe not quite there, there are some repercussions  Susan Stone: and that would be contained in the terms of service of the providers? Eugene Volokh: Oh, well, I think there are two questions lurking in here. One is somebody posts something. That, let's say, accuses someone else of some crime and then they get sued for libel too, not a newspaper. Why are you suing me for libel? Well, it turns out that. There are restrictions on speech. So for example, if you, especially if you say something knowingly false about someone else that damages the reputation, you could get sued and maybe, maybe before the internet, if you just said it orally, probably would be a lot harder to catch you and, but with the internet now, you could get caught. Eugene Volokh: Likewise, if you post something threatening. You could get prosecuted for a threat and people might say, well, what about free speech? Well, there are some narrow but significant exceptions to free speech, like for true threats of illegal conduct, like for defamation such as libel and the like. So people do have to remember that something that they just whip out in and angry or drunk or foolish moment. Eugene Volokh: To me, never, never you damaging. Today, , there's a separate question. Which is, well, what if it's something that violates, say, Twitter's terms of service or it doesn't even violate them. You know, private entities can generally remove your material or kick you off uh, for, uh, for whatever reasons they want right now. Eugene Volokh: At the same time though so how is that different from the things we started? Well, first of all, you're the, the, the downside to you, we have technology is pretty limited. Like people value their ability to tweet or value their ability to post on Facebook. But I think most people would rather, would rather get kicked off of Twitter than go to jail. Eugene Volokh: Uh, I would agree. ,  Susan Stone: my god, that is a bold statement, but, Would you take the position that you agree with decisions to pull someone off of Twitter like Kanye West or Donald Trump?  Eugene Volokh: Well, so it lot depends on what you mean by a Greek. So for example, I, I think that that large wealthy platform corporations like Twitter and Facebook should not be. Eugene Volokh: Essentially interfering with public debate about elections by taking government officials or candidates for office and kicking them off of their sites. Now, maybe they have the right to do that. They certainly have the legal right to do that. At least in most states. There's some state laws try to limit that. Eugene Volokh: It's an interesting question whether they're constitutional, but they might very well have the legal right to do that. One might still say that's not really good for. When a platform, just because it happens to have a lot of users and be economically extraordinarily wealthy and powerful, that it should be able to leverage that economic power into political power. Eugene Volokh: So that's a lot more of a concern with regard to candidates may still be applicable to Kayne West. Well, by the way, I think he is talking about running. For president, but uh, think it's particularly dangerous when they do that with regard to credible candidates for office. Because if an election, which could have been 51 49, 1 way is swung 51 49 another way because. Eugene Volokh: Uh, Jack Dorsey or Elon Musk or, uh, Zuckerberg decide that they, that they don't like a particular kind of speech, even for good reason, decide that that may be something we might be troubled by. We may say they should have the legal right to do this, but we might suggest that they ought not do it. Eugene Volokh: There's a separate question of may the government step in and say, You might think that you are like a newspaper, which gets to decide what's in it, put in its pages. You might think you're like a bookstore, which gets to decide what books to sell. But we think you're actually more like the phone company, which isn't entitled to say, we're gonna cut off someone's phone line because they're communists. Eugene Volokh: Or they're recruiting for the kkk, or they're recruiting for Antifa, or something like that. So, Is that permissible? Would it be permissible for the government to say, we're so worried about you being able to leverage your economic power and your ownership of this tremendously important means of communication into political power that we're gonna require you to be viewpoint neutral in your decision. Eugene Volokh: So not to kick off people because they're racist or anti-Semites, or because they're spreading particular views about covid or about elections or. That's an interesting and difficult question, and maybe the answer is that those platforms would have the right not to say, recommend certain posts not to pitch those posts to users as you might be interested in this or that because that's their speech, but might be required to host it, to host those posts on their. Eugene Volokh: So it could be that certain kinds of regulations as to the, what I call the hosting function of platforms are constitutionally permissible, whereas regulations of what I call the recommendation function of the platforms, which is a lot more, their speech would be impermissible.  Eugene Volokh: So I am really wrestling with that. Eugene Volokh: Is the, are these providers more like a telephone service company and we don't want the government listening in our co in on our conversation? Well, Eugene Volokh: I'm sorry if I can interrupt. I just wanna make clear the telephone point is not about privacy, it's not about confidentiality. Thank you. Even if somebody is widely known to be using a telephone line as a communist recruitment line, or a kkk, get out the vote line. Eugene Volokh: They're promoting it this way. Nobody's listening in on anything. It's well. still, then a phone company is not allowed to say, we're going to cancel your phone line because we think you're using it for evil purposes. No phone companies have to serve everybody so long as they, so long as they pay they can't engage in viewpoint based discrimination among their subscribers as opposed to, uh, among their users, let's say, the people who have phone lines as opposed to say a newspaper, which. Eugene Volokh: And probably should decide which op-eds to publish based in part on their viewpoint. Susan Stone: Thank you for that clarification. Would the barometer of censorship move up as the language moves from hate to calling for violence? Does that change your view? Is that like yelling? Fire in a theater. When you get on Twitter and say, this person is bad, cancel them, hurt them, or this candidate, let's storm the capitol. Susan Stone: I mean, when do you think there is the obligation? When does it really change from a moral obligation to a legal obligation to intervene?  Eugene Volokh: Okay, so again, we have. Several different things going on here. One is shouting fire in a crowded theater. I just wanna make it clear, the Supreme Court did say in a case, which actually since then has been overruled in considerable measure shank of the United States, uh, that the First Amendment doesn't protect falsely shouting fire in a crowded theater and thereby starting a panic. Eugene Volokh: So that was already a pretty narrow category of things that indeed are legally punish. So I wanna bracket this question of shouting fire in a crowded theater, falsely shouting fire in a crowded theater. It's, I, it's often used as an analogy, but it actually isn't much of an analogy because, precisely because to the extent the court has endorsed it, it's really very narrow. Eugene Volokh: It has to do with, with falsehoods that risk, knowing falsehoods, really that risk, imminent, imminent stampe, imminent loss of life. the second question is should platforms make, distinguish between. So-called hate speech, which could just be the spreading of opinions sharply critical of racial groups or religious groups. Eugene Volokh: By the way, that's very common for people to sharply criticize religions or of sexual orientations or gender identities or of sexist or whatever else, and calling for violence and yeah, I could imagine a platform saying, look, we are open to all sorts of viewpoints, but not the viewpoint that you should go out there and act violent. Eugene Volokh: So if you say, let's go out there and kill the Jews, or if you say, let's go out there and kill police officers. Or if you say, let's go out there and engage in violent revolution and kill the oppressive capitalists. Or let's go out there and kill the spoilers of the earth. Who are who are polluting our, our atmosphere with with greenhouse gases, whatever your ideology may be. Eugene Volokh: If you're calling for violence, we're gonna kick you off. I think, you know, you could imagine a platform plausibly saying, I think. , look, this is, this is something where we draw the line. We're gonna accept a wide range of views, including about race, about religion and such, but not if you call violence. So, so you could imagine that. Eugene Volokh: Now again, phone companies can't even do that, right? Uh, but you can imagine that possibly being a reasonable position for a company uh, to take. There's a third cat question though. Okay. Which maybe returns.  Eugene Volokh: Yeah, I wanna bring a scenario to you, and it might be that third category. Kristina and I had a case around a year ago where, uh, students were considered unpopular for various reasons on campus, and they were doxed, and these, our clients were terrified that their families were. Eugene Volokh: Going to be hurt. And I think that doxing has become a much bigger problem on college campuses. Eugene Volokh: So I'm gonna need you to define doxing. because people have used doxing to mean a lot of things. Okay. Tell me what you mean by doxing.  Kristina Supler: Publicly outing someone's home address telephone number so that other people can gang up on them and sort of got it. Kristina Supler: Espouse the mob and town. .  Eugene Volokh: So that's a very interesting question. So you're talk, uh, about whether it should be permissible for the government or maybe just for a public university with regard to its students, to forbid the publication of people's home addresses and phone numbers. The reason it sounds so appealing is you can have all sorts of public debates by and large, without knowing people's home addresses or phone numbers. Eugene Volokh: So one could imagine such a rule, and in fact there are a. Few statutes that do target that, or even more clearly like social security numbers. Very hard to see how my social security number is going to be relevant to some public debate. So you could argue that that's the kind of thing that should be restrict. Eugene Volokh: By the, the courts have not really been quite firm, even on social security numbers. They haven't had a lot of occasion to deal with it when there have been attempts to outlaw the publication of home addresses, usually focused on home addresses, say have police officers and others. Oh, legislators is another case that I was actually involved in as a lawyer. Eugene Volokh: Courts have said, no, it's unconstitutional to ban such publication, and there are various reasons. One of them, by the way, is that in most of the country, it is legal to picket it outside someone's home. I'm not wild about residential picketing, but it's a tactic that has been used and continues to be used by the left and by the right, by various groups on the left and on the right. Eugene Volokh: And if there is a legal right as there is in most places it could be restricted by ordinances or statutes, but most places don't ban residential picketing. If there's a legal right to picket someone's home, there has to be a legal right to inform. Home to this place that, cuz that's the home we're gonna be picketing. Eugene Volokh: So that's what makes that pretty complicated. But note Gary, you said, you said at home addresses and phone numbers, I often hear doxing used to refer to other things like, for example, a person's identity, the identity of a person who would rather remain anonymous. Like somebody who is a, an anonymous online commenter and somebody says, we think they're a troll. Eugene Volokh: We're gonna track them down and we're gonna tell you this is the person's name. Well, that could lead to possible threats against the person. It's also the sort of thing that newspapers pretty routinely do too, right? Like if you write a story about someone who'd rather not be written about, they could say, you're doxing me. Eugene Volokh: You're revealing my personal information. What's that information? My name? Well, it is personal information, but we. Have to have the right to talk about people's names and to find, figure out who's the person who's anonymously doing this or that. Likewise, sometimes people say, well, uh, this person docks me by revealing the name of my employer. Eugene Volokh: Well, that too might be relevant for a variety of reasons, both to figure out, let's say if the anonymous commenter is hired by somebody, maybe they gives them a conflict of interest if they'll say anonymous journalist or a popular tweeter or something like that. Also, sometimes people do organize. Or threatened boycots of employers because of the speech of their employees. Eugene Volokh: I don't approve of that as a general matter. But but in many places it's legal. And again, if that's legal, then you have to be able to identify whom you need to threaten to boycott. Hmm.  Kristina Supler: Eugene, I wanna switch gears a little bit. So Susan and I represent students across the country involved in a lot of different types of matters, general student misconduct, title ix, so on and so forth. Kristina Supler: I'm wondering what are your thoughts on whether schools should get involved in sort of policing what students post on the internet?  Eugene Volokh: Well, at least it de, it depends on what kind of. Uh, so  Kristina Supler: course private, private ,  Eugene Volokh: public versus private college versus high school. Yeah, high school versus elementary school. Eugene Volokh: That's actually gonna be our follow  Kristina Supler: up  Eugene Volokh: question, so let's take an example and also what kind of things are they, are they posting? So let's take an example. Let's say UCLA starts policing what people post by threatening to expel them for racist posts. That's a first amendment. If that's the policy, it's open and shut, unconstitutional. Eugene Volokh: And whoever is targeted by this should sue and they'll get, they'll get money, or at least their lawyers will get attorney fees. Uh, so, so that's, oh, that's good. always, that's always, you're  Susan Stone: speaking my language, .  Eugene Volokh: Exactly. . So, okay, so that's an example. But let's look even at the public university context. Eugene Volokh: Let's say the university says, you know, we've been hearing about various threats of violence. It could be racist violence, or it could just be, you know, there's chatter, like there's a strike going on and there's chatter about maybe vandalizing government buildings, uh, university building. And of hurting another  Susan Stone: student  Eugene Volokh: or of hurting another student, which is what we deal with Sore gonna do, is we're gonna monitor that, maybe hire someone to search for these things, maybe set up some ai, like talk to our computer science department. Eugene Volokh: Can you set up an AI that monitors tweaks to see if there are, if there seem to be references to things connected to our university, and then have somebody probably, it's not. And AI would have to be some human looking through and saying, oh, wait a minute. That either that, maybe that looks like a death threat and that's something we should prosecute someone for. Eugene Volokh: Or maybe even, it doesn't look like it's illegal itself, but it's useful information for us to know because maybe we wanna have more police presence at someplace or something like that. Or, or alternatively, let's say that it's not a threat of. What it is, is somebody posting, posting, uh, information about forthcoming exams that they managed to hack into somebody's computer. Eugene Volokh: Right. Oh, we know.  Susan Stone: Yes. We had those cases.  Eugene Volokh: Right, right. You know, you'd think that universities ought to be policing that public or private, doesn't really matter. Now, what if it's a private university? What if it's Harvard that decides we're gonna expel people who express anti-trans views? I think that would be very bad. Eugene Volokh: I don't think it's unconstitutional because Harvard's a private, if they do it university. Well, if they do it, I think that's a violation of academic freedom principles. It may be a violation of, of academic freedom policies that they've adopted as contracts in California, by the way, they weren't Harvard, but if we were Stanford, California has a statute that bars. Eugene Volokh: Private universities, generally speaking, there's an important exception we'll get to from expelling students based on, on their speech and otherwise disciplining students based  Susan Stone: on their speech. And I do wanna say, when I say they, I don't mean Harvard in particular listeners out there. I am saying though, that schools, that generally, schools generally, I wanna make that clarification in fact. Susan Stone: Eugene, we had cases where college admissions were revoked when school admissions committees were informed after an acceptance of students. We've had a couple of those cases that students, when they were 16, 15, made comments that were. Either consider racist or sexist. Mm-hmm. and against the values of the institution. Susan Stone: So there is a lot going on when schools find out about certain types of  Eugene Volokh: speech. Right, right. And I do think that that kind of policing is improper. And again, a private university may be free to do that, but I don't think it should, but, . Let's assume that this is particular kind of university, which is known as a theological seminary. Eugene Volokh: Mm-hmm. , where they say, you know, we believe in some particular religious viewpoint and we want to train future ministers of that viewpoint. And you've just been posting about how you're an atheist. Or posting things that, that, maybe not even an atheist, cuz then why would you want to come, come, uh, to study at our school? Eugene Volokh: You're a heretic, right? You claim you are a good ex Methodist, let's say, but really your views are ones we do not want around our institution. You know, I would cut, I, I would be more open to the, that kind of university doing it in part. My sense is a lot of these places, not all of them, I think some theological seminaries do, and some religious schools more broadly do make a big thing out of how they are open to all sorts of views. Eugene Volokh: But if some of them do in fact say, you know, we're, we're not there to educate everybody regardless of viewpoint. We are there. Promo promulgate our understanding of the gospel. Well then it's something more plausible for them to say, we're trying to build a community of people who think like us and not people who think differently from us. Eugene Volokh: So, so again, that's just the university level at the high school and the junior high school and elementary school level, it may be even even different. So that's, That's why it's, uh, it's hard to answer these questions in the abstract,  Susan Stone: so we'll drill down. We have every, typically it's either after spring break, we have a number of cases where younger kiddos, especially junior high students, middle school age, love posting pictures of themselves, either with toy guns or a bullet or the ubiquitous. Susan Stone: Hitler mustache, and we usually have to deal with those cases because they are, they usually get issued a suspension or expulsion notice.  Eugene Volokh: Right. Well, so I think a lot depends on the circumstances. A lot depends on whether there's evidence of substantial disruption. For example, something may depend on whether it's in a context where it looks like it's threatening or where it targets a particular person at the same time. Eugene Volokh: I've been involved in some cases where uh, there were attempts to punish students for just not even punish them, but just to stop them from wearing t-shirts that depict weapons to school. Well, and they, they were wearing some disciplined mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And they, and they. Where, for example, some t-shirts that support gun rights, that have a picture of a gun or that have the logo of a pro-gun rights organization that has a gun on it. Eugene Volokh: They were told not to wear it and courts generally say no, they have a First Amendment right to wear it. There's no, there's no pictures of guns exception to the First Amendment, Kristina. So likewise with toy guns, if somebody, if a school were to say, you are not allowed to pose even outside school on the internet with a toy gun. Eugene Volokh: I think that's a First Amendment violation. Now, if what was happening is these, that the student had a picture of himself with a gun that doesn't look like a toy gun, turns out it's a toy gun, doesn't look like a toy gun, and he's saying, teacher Jones, you know I'm gonna shoot you with this. Well, even if it turns out that he couldn't do it, cuz it's a toy gun, that may very well be a punishable. Eugene Volokh: Yeah.  Susan Stone: Kristina, don't you think we've come so far from Tinker Vido, the case where students prevailed in protecting their right to protest Vietnam to what's going on today. Do you think there's a difference?  Kristina Supler: Oh gosh. I mean, it's just, I, I keep coming back to the internet and the impact of the internet and these online platforms for students too. Kristina Supler: Cause of course, that's primarily the lens that we're sort of examining these issues through is from a student perspective, the level, what is said, the, the. persistence with what is said, the frequency, how people sort of jump on the bandwagon. And you know, I, I, I don't especially love the phrase cancel culture, but it's just a reality now and students are caught up in things so often, for better or for worse. Kristina Supler: It can be scary at times. Yeah.  Susan Stone: When we talk to students, if someone says something that is, they love the word, the, the word of 22 is not triggering. They don't like being gas lit. I don't know if you're hearing you gaslight me. Um, do kids. Fight. I think of Tinker Vido. I think of I'm 56 and how precious the First Amendment is. Susan Stone: Do you think students even value the First Amendment anymore, or is everyone just like, I, I'm triggered. You're causing me anxiety, you're causing me depression. I don't wanna talk about it. Don't say anything.  Eugene Volokh: Everyone is, a lot of people, students are a large  Susan Stone: group . Are  Kristina Supler: you suggesting that we ought not generalize Eugene Volokh: Well, I'd be hesitant to say that I know how people think. Including people that I spend very little time around. I spent very little time around, say K through 12 students. Except, except my, my kids who were one of whom just went to college, but they were both K through 12 for, for many years. And I saw some of their classmates, cause that's, they skipped high school Eugene Volokh: But, but, but that's a very, uh, narrow subset of the whole population. And I don't even know all. On top of that, if you're comparing to how things were back in Tinker v Des Moines Independent School District back in 1969 that's, uh, you know, I certainly don't know what kids those days thought. Right. And I don't think there were good surveys that we could look back on. Eugene Volokh: And then on top of that, I think, um, a lot of students may say, you know, we value free speech, but with some, except, And the fact is, almost all of us, even those who value free speech a lot, recognize some exception. Again, for threats or for liable or, or, or for the like. So what I think has happening out there is there are, if you're talking about students, there are many tens of millions of students. Eugene Volokh: Who have different views about who should be free to speak under which circumstances. And then on top of that, there are probably quite a few who haven't really thought hard about the subject. So as a consequence, you ask them a question in a survey, they may give you an answer just to get you off off their backs. Eugene Volokh: But it could be a different answer tomorrow when something ill different is in the news because it's not something that they're really. To rest on as a as a kind of a, a, a, with a definitive answer. So I don't know what students these days think. I have a much better sense of what the legal rules are because they are set forth in part by our hierarchical authority, by the Supreme Court, and I can read their, their opinions. Eugene Volokh: I, I can read the minds of tens of millions of student. I'd like to, it  Kristina Supler: indulge me as we do a little law school exam question. Let's talk about criminalization of abortion. We've obviously had a recent significance, Supreme Court ruling and how that sort of meshes with or intersects with free speech considerations, particularly on public college campuses. Kristina Supler: I'm curious what your thoughts are if students live in a state where abortion is illegal, are they free to publicly protest and rally for something? otherwise a, a crime. What other speech pre are there still speech protections for protests related to criminal conduct?  Eugene Volokh: Well, what, what you're, what you're describing is a protest that maybe that they may include just decriminalizing conduct. Eugene Volokh: Just like people are free to rally for decriminalizing marijuana in a case that, that, and excuse me, in a state that still bans marijuana, they're free to rally for decriminalizing abortion. , right? Or not even decriminalizing, but fully legalizing and funding abortion. I'm perfectly free to do that more. Eugene Volokh: What about  Susan Stone: religious considerations? What if you are a student, you find that you're pregnant and you are part of a religion where your clergy says, You know what? I don't think you are in a position. I think your health is endangered. You should go get an abortion. Do you think that the state has the right to interfere with that free exercise of what someone had going on between that person and their clergy? Eugene Volokh: Well, so the answers may be, but the important thing is that, or one important thing is we've now moved a lot from a right to speak to a right to act, right? So remember I said you don't, you have a right to. , you have a right to argue that marijuana should be legalized. You have a right to argue that heroin should be legalized. Eugene Volokh: Perfectly good arguments that both should be legalized. That doesn't necessarily doesn't mean that you have the right to actually use marijuana. Or to use heroin. And incidentally, marijuana is an example of where at least some religious groups, uh, do view it as a sacrament. And courts have generally said no to those kinds of claims. Eugene Volokh: So, so the one thing we know for sure is people can't just get an exemption from a generally applicable religion neutral law simply by saying, I don't like it, or It's against my religion, or, My spiritual leader tells me that it's a bad law or tells me we should violate that law that can't by itself be enough because then otherwise all of us could violate any laws we want just by announcing this is part of our religion. Eugene Volokh: Or maybe maybe joining some religion that authorizes that. So it's a very different question. The pre speech question is very different from freedom of action. Now as to freedom of action, it is quite complic. It so there's for example, a case that was just decided by a trial court in Indiana. Eugene Volokh: Indiana has a law called the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. It's modeled on a federal law that applies to federal statutes, but this one applies to state statutes in Indiana, these are called RRA for short. So the Indiana RRA says essentially that if the government substantially burdens somebody's religious belief through some regulation, then that person gets an exemption. Eugene Volokh: Unless the government can show that denying the exemption, that applying the law, notwithstanding the religious objection is narrowly tailored to compelling government interest. So let me give you an easy case under the law in favor of an exemption. Many courtrooms, as I understand it, probably most have a rule that says you can't wear hats in. Eugene Volokh: Agreed. Why? It's just sort of seen as disrespectful. It's not a, it's not a tremendously important rule, but it is the rule and you can't just say, I don't like this rule. I like my cap. Baseball cap. Nope, sorry. You wanna be in a courtroom. You gotta follow the rules. But let's say that hat is a Yamal cup or it's a Sikh turt, or it's a Muslim woman's or Orthodox Jewish woman's head scarf, let's say. Eugene Volokh: Or it's a Catholic nun. Headgear well, that there you might very well have an exemption. Why? Because the law prohibits you from doing something your religion tells you to do. That's the substantial burden part, and it's hard to see some compelling government interest in making sure that people not wear a headgear in, in court. Eugene Volokh: Maybe it's a. Legitimate interest, maybe even a substantial interest, but compelling. The law says it's gotta be very, very higher.  Susan Stone: So folks, so there's out there listening. I just wanna add, when we get calls about, I wanna be on a sports team and I want a Covid exemption. Yep.  Eugene Volokh: There you go. There you go. Eugene Volokh: And in states that have, uh, these kinds of RFRA rules, you may very well get such an exception. Okay, so let's look at ex at an example of something that, uh, that pretty clearly wouldn't. Uh, viewed as basis for an exemption. Let's say somebody says, you know, I, my religion tells me that men and women shouldn't work together because that's contrary to modesty rules. Eugene Volokh: So I'm not gonna hire this woman to work in this particular secluded place to right next to a man because, you know, he was there first and I'm not gonna fire him, and I'm not gonna hire a woman to work with him. That violates anti-discrimination. and, but the person says, you know, my religion tells me that it would be sinful for me to put men and women in a situation where there may be temptation. Eugene Volokh: Well, okay, maybe that substantially burdens your religious beliefs, but there's a compelling government interest in ensuring equal opportunity and employment and making sure that women or men or others aren't handicapped in, in getting in, in, in developing their careers this way. So that, so that's just a reminder that restrictions on conduct. Eugene Volokh: Are often permissible, even if restrictions on speech wouldn't be, let's say for example, he says, I want to speak out urging all anti-discrimination laws be repealed. He has every right to do that. The First Amendment obviously protects his right to argue in favor of the propriety of discrimination, even if it's illegal, because what's illegal now could be made legal later. Eugene Volokh: That's part of the political process, but it doesn't mean he can violate this law. So, one question, the abortion situation. Does the law substantially burden a woman's religious beliefs? So for that, she has to be able to sincerely testify that her religion is motivating her to get an abortion. So as I understand it, at least many rabbis say that. Eugene Volokh: Women should get an abortion to avoid threats to life. But of course, state laws already allow that. But also threats to physical and mental health. So if the woman concludes that she, that there would be really extremely mentally. Damaging for her to have another child whom she may be emotionally or financially unprepared to take care of. Eugene Volokh: Then in that case, she should get an abortion. So if that's so, and if the woman believes that, that's a substantial burden, by the way, if the woman just says, my religion tells me that abortions are fine, that's, that's not enough to trigger this religious exemption regime. The religion has to tell her that she actually should get it, not that it's her right to get it. Eugene Volokh: So then the question. Can the government show that there's a compelling interest in preventing abortions, and that's something that courts in those states are going to have to resolve. And that's one thing that makes this such a complicated question. How do you decide? I mean the, the statute says compelling government interest, but nobody has ever set up a clear rule as to what is a compelling government interest and what's not. Eugene Volokh: So that's what makes this an extra complicated question. Much more complicated than a lot of free speech  Susan Stone: questions. Yeah. Compelling to whom? What's compelling to you may not be compelling to me, Susan.  Eugene Volokh: I have. Right. Although the court, the statute seems to say compelling in the judges'. . That's  Susan Stone: right.  Kristina Supler: Yeah. Kristina Supler: Susan, we're here with the foremost first Amendment scholar expert in our country. I want you to ask him a question about fraternities.  Susan Stone: Are you ready? are you ready for Let's go deep. Okay. Because it's gonna be our final question. We represent a lot of students in hazing cases, and we see a lot of campuses. Susan Stone: The minute there's an allegation of hazing. Shut down the fraternity. Do students have a First Amendment associational Right to gather in a Greek organization? And, you know, do I have the right to drink beer with people under the same Greek letters or can colleges say you're out, you don't, how does that whole Right to free association. Susan Stone: I always think that's something we don't talk about in the First Amendment. Play into that decision. It's so  Kristina Supler: interesting how, uh, every day in our cases we're dealing with you know, issues that are. Teenagers, college students. But from a legal perspective, there's, there's pretty weighty constitutional issues at  Susan Stone: play at Well, yeah, and it, for my corporate partners out there, take that. Susan Stone: We have some big issues in the student and athlete defense practice. Right.  Kristina Supler: What are your thoughts on, on what's happening now with Greek organizations on college campus and, and what really feels like the push to do away with them and, and the tension? I think with freedom of association and I think that was  Susan Stone: part of litigation, correct. Susan Stone: To get rid of single sex organizations.  Eugene Volokh: Okay. So it's compliment as it, but it's often  Susan Stone: complicated. ,  Kristina Supler: so it's complicated for a couple of  Eugene Volokh: weeks. One is there are actually. Two kinds of constitutional rights that are labeled the Right to Associate and the Supreme Court in a 1983 case. Uh, Roberts, v US Jaycees actually went into this in a little bit of detail. Eugene Volokh: I'm sorry, I just looked it up. Uh, I got it wrong. 1984 Case Roberts  Susan Stone: c James. That's okay. I got the Des Moines v, the Des Moines Tinker v Des Moines Rock. So it's okay. It's okay. We're among the friends and listeners.  Eugene Volokh: Neither of those rights is actually listed in the Constitution, but the court has said for a long time, there's a right to expressive association, which is to say a right to associate in ways that promote your ability to express your views. Eugene Volokh: And for example, in a political association,  Susan Stone: I'm a Democrat, religious association Republican. Got it. Right.  Eugene Volokh: So for example, if the government were to say, Uh, that people can't form political organizations. They wanna speak, they can just speak by themselves, but they can't pool their resources in order to, uh, to express themselves. Eugene Volokh: That would be clearly unconstitutional because it would violate the right to expressive association. There's also a right to intimate association, which the court has said extends to basically small. Groups of people who are either very close friends or have to share living quarters and the like. You know my, so I'll give you an example, a  Susan Stone: little dirty on that. Susan Stone: Kristina . Sorry, I, I always go to the gutter, don't I?  Kristina Supler: Yeah, indeed. Indeed. But go  Eugene Volokh: on. So write to intimate association. Here's an example of a case where this was implicated fr it's not from the Supreme Court, but from the ninth Circuit. So out, out uh, on the West Coast, it's, but it's an important federal appellate court. Eugene Volokh: There was, a lawsuit which asked whether a roommate finding service was entitled to provide ways for people to search for roommates of the same sex and roommates or of the opposite sex, but search for roommates, bi sex and bisexual orientation, or whether that was. Whether that was impermissible housing discrimination in violation of state law, and the court said, look, yeah, that's a, as a landlord, you don't have the right, generally speaking to say, I'm not gonna rent a women or to gays, or to blacks, or to Jews, or to fundamentalist Christians. Eugene Volokh: but as a roommate, even one who's just looking for a stranger to share an apartment with you, you could say, look, you know, I'm a woman. I'm only comfortable with other women, or I'm only comfortable with straight women. I don't want a lesbian woman, or I'd prefer a lesbian woman. Or even, you know, I'm black and I wanna live with other blacks, or I'm a. Eugene Volokh: I'm of Korean extraction. I wanna live with other Koreans, or I want to keep a kosher household. And in order for that to work, I I want to live with other Jews. So that's an, the court said, I oversimplify here a little bit, but it basically said, yes, there is this right of intimate association of choosing whom you are going to live with. Eugene Volokh: So, right of expressive association, as I understand it would rarely apply to fraternities. They're not fundamentally organized in order to express their. They may in the process sometimes do that, like they may put out statements or engage in some political activity or some such, but that's very very slight part of what they do. Eugene Volokh: And in fact, in Roberts v US jcs, the court said it basically a, an adult fraternity, the Junior Chamber of Commerce, the jcs, like an adult club like that was not protected. By expressive association law, at least against application of anti-discrimination laws, it was required to let in women. On the other hand, fraternities, I think, are intimate associations. Eugene Volokh: They are groups of people living together to be sure. It's not one person, one roommate. It could be a couple of dozen people or more living together, but they do live together. They share household chores. They do, as I understand, it takes seriously the notion that they're supposed to become friends and brothers and such. Eugene Volokh: So they may have. Not under the First Amendment right of expressive association, but under the 14th Amendment right of Intimate Association. But the question is how far those rights extend. So I think if a university said, public university said, if you belong to a single sex fraternal or seral organization, we will expel you. Eugene Volokh: That would be as unconstitutional as saying, we'll expel you for marrying someone or we'll expel you for having as a roommate someone who is of the same sex as you, or the opposite sex or whatever else. That would be an interference with their right of intimate association  Susan Stone: under the 14th amendment. Eugene Volokh: Uh, exactly. However, let's say the university. You know, what you do off campus property is entirely up to you. And if you wanna live off campus with some people who, and call it a fraternity, it's all the same to us as if you wanna live with some camp, some people off campus and call it a roommates, however, If you want access to certain on-campus housing that we have historically leased to fraternities or sororities, well, we're gonna say no. Eugene Volokh: We're only gonna release them now from now on to kind of unisex groups, groups that allow members of both sexes. Well, there, the government would be acting essentially as landlords and would have a good deal of authority to say, you know, our property, we want our property to be used for. Unisex groups and not for single sex groups. Eugene Volokh: So a lot depends on the particular rules that the institutions are, are creating. And of course, a lot also depends on whether it's a private institution or not. Cuz if it's a private institution, it's not bound by constitutional by, by 14th Amendment rules or First amendment rules. Uh, and the first place, because it's not the. Eugene Volokh: Thank you  Kristina Supler: so much. Good food for thought today. This 14th amendment issue in particular, not on my radar, so I've learned a great deal today, but it's been such a pleasure speaking with you, Eugene. We're really grateful for your time today.  Susan Stone: and I am so happy that I inched myself up. Eugene was actually talking, do you remember about the use of pseudonyms? Susan Stone: Mm-hmm. and at our conference, and we often file as John Doe, so we were listening to what you had to say because we usually have had our motions for pseudonyms. Granted very important issue. And very important issue. Yes. And I have to tell you, trying to cover. All of the First Amendment issues that we wrestle with in our practice in the span of an hour. Susan Stone: Impossible, but you have boiled it down. Did anyone ever tell you to write First Amendment for Dummies? I would be the first to buy that copy and well, I  Eugene Volokh: will say I did put together. Thanks for the generous, uh, thanks to Generous Grant by the Stanton Foundation. I put together. A series of 10 videos called Free Speech Rules. Eugene Volokh: So if you go to free speech rules.org, one word, or you search for free speech rules, and especially Embolic on YouTube, you'll find these videos. They're mostly aimed at kind of high school students and college students. They're kind of snappy and short and graphical, wonderful. But you know, I think all of us might like something snappy and short and graphical. Eugene Volokh: So they'll actually cover not all of the First Amendment by any means, but some of the issues. College student speech, high school student speech, and the luck.  Susan Stone: I love it. And thank you for sharing that everyone please check it out in and check it out. And thanks for being on Real talk with Susan and Kristina.

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Charlotte Wasserman, co-founder of “It's a Girls Life”, an organization dedicated to teaching young woman grit and resilience.  Topics they discuss grit.  The conversation includes what grit means and what the acronym stands for, the importance of finding the right people to surround yourself with and how you can be the right person for someone else, and the biggest challenges facing young women today. Links from this Episode: It's a Girls' Life Website: https://www.itsagirlslife.org/ It's a Girl's Life Podcast (Apple Podcast) It's a Girl's Life Podcast (Spotify) Show Notes: (03:10)  What does G.R.I.T. stand for? (04:49) What inspired Charlotte to start G.R.I.T.? (06:45)  An inspiring example of how Charlotte used grit to go against the grain and make the best decision for her (10:46)  The struggles of finding the right Team to support you (11:30)  Why it's important to have the right Team (12:55)  Is teaching grit different for girls than for boys? (16:14)  Can grit grow to meet the really big challenges in life? (17:31)  A project to help people deal with really big challenges (18:32)  “It's a Girl's Life” Podcast - what will listeners get from this podcast? (21:15)  How to be a good, supportive Team member for someone else? (22:05)  Why sometimes it's better to be a good listener (23:57)  The biggest challenge girls face today (25:00)  What's in the future for the “It's a Girl's Life” program (26:43)  How Charlotte plans to help more college and high-school girls with her program (27:52)  Sororities:  Confidence Builder or Resilience Killer (28:15)  How to pick out the right sorority for you Transcript: Susan Stone: Kristina, what's so sad is we never get to meet people under. , everything's great. Kristina Supler: Ordinary circumstances.  Susan Stone: Yeah. like, Hey, you know, come you, if you call us for help, that means  Kristina Supler: most of our clients are in a bad place. So when we're dealing with students, it's some type of crisis  Susan Stone: and we don't see the post crisis. We don't get to see the bounce back.  Kristina Supler: Rarely. Yeah. I mean, sometimes we stay in touch with families and, and receive updates, but yeah, I think you're, you said it exactly right. We, we see the worst and we don't get to see the best or the recovery,  Susan Stone: but the one aspect of getting through a legal process at least, or a challenging situation, I think is how resilient a student is when they come to us, because, uh, the students that have a little bit more grit. Mm. Yeah. That's gonna be the word for today of day. The word of the day. The students that show a little more grit are just more present and get through the process a lot. Well, frankly, better for them and better for us. Right. Kristina Supler: I agree. It does help us. Uh, it makes it a little easier for us to do our job in terms of guiding and supporting students going through the crisis. Susan Stone: So I wanna know, and the question always is that we talk about. What makes regardless of the circumstances, Why are some people are just more resilient than others?  Susan Stone: And that's it. Kristina Supler: It's great question. And on that note, I'd like to introduce today's guest. Today we are pleased to be joined by Charlotte Wasserman, who is a freshman at Southern Methodist University, SM u Charlotte hails from Cleveland. And she's really passionate about empowering girls to become the best versions of themselves through her nonprofit. Called, it's a Girl's Life. Charlotte's been working on, it's a Girl's Life since its creation in middle school for her. Kristina Supler: She's hosted several events for teen girls, primarily focused on teaching them about grit and resilience, and her current focus is on growing and being the host of It's a Girls' Life podcast, which empowers young women to be creators of their own stories. Welcome Charlotte.  Kristina Supler: Welcome  Charlotte Wasserman: Charlotte. Hi, . Thanks for having me. Susan Stone: Y. And I have to say that, um, I've known Charlotte since she was been born, and if you wanna talk about grit, someone that I respect a lot and is incredibly strong, beautiful, and resilient, is Charlotte's mom, Halle. So big fan. You can tell her. I did a shout out about her today.  Charlotte Wasserman: I will tell her after this. Susan Stone: So, charlotte, . Grit is a word, but it's an acronym. When we looked at your website, yes, G R I T in all caps, tell us what it stands for and what it really means.  Charlotte Wasserman: Yeah, so. Grit. So grit is obviously as a one word definition about like resilience and getting back out, up and out there after you like fall down or have a challenge in kind of overcoming that. Charlotte Wasserman: But. As to girls' life, we saw grit as more than that and kind of like a framework for people and like girls specifically to live by. So the G stands for Growing Guts and that is growing courage. And confidence I guess you could say. And then the R stands for resilience. Which is, getting back out there after, times are tough and you're experiencing different things, "I" is imperfections and accepting your own imperfections and that, you're not perfect. All around people make mistakes and that's what makes us human.  Charlotte Wasserman: And then T is team, and that means surrounding yourself and the importance of surrounding yourself with people who build you up and support you and can help you through those tough times as well. So between all those, that's like the most important things that I think are for someone who wants to build grits, I guess you would say, and what you need or to like accept when you're building grit in your own life. Susan Stone: That's a lot to unpack actually. That's a lot. .  Kristina Supler: I love that. And I'm just trying to imagine as a, as a middle school student having the maturity and awareness and insight to think about creating this platform and, and executing it. So tell us a little more about what inspired you to do what you're doing and create grit. Charlotte Wasserman: The first thing I would say is that I can't take full responsibility for like the whole G R I T framework because that was actually established a foundation out in California that I found when I was in middle school that was teaching girls, but very like small group settings, middle school and maybe high schools as well about grit and resilience. Charlotte Wasserman: So what happened is that when I was in middle school I was like facing a lot of academic and social challenges as a lot of girls do. And I just realized that there has to be like some way to teach girls about everything that we're all experiencing that will like provide them Clarity on like what they're experiencing, but also how to fix it. Charlotte Wasserman: And when I heard about what this organization out in California was doing and teaching girls about, which was grit I just, my own research and found out was a topic that was mostly taught to adults. And I thought it was so interesting in how you can actually teach that to girls and how meaningful it would be. Charlotte Wasserman: So then I reached out to them. We just started talking about creating an event series for teen girls here in Cleveland. So it wasn't just going to specific middle schools or high schools, but anyone who wanted to come could attend, learn what grit is, hear about it in like real life examples from speakers. Charlotte Wasserman: And again, reminder, reminds them that like, you're not the only person who's dealing with something, whatever that could be. Susan Stone: I have a two-part question, if you'll bear with me a little bit. Mm-hmm. , I struggle with the idea, can you teach grit? Mm-hmm. ,  Susan Stone: is it something you just have to live through something tough and look back, but if, right. Susan Stone: Your whole group is based on the idea that you can. So I'm assuming your answer is yes. , but can you give me an example of a situation where someone learned some tools, what those tools were and they actually got gritty? Charlotte Wasserman: Hmm. That's so interesting question that I really like. No one's ever asked me that question before. Charlotte Wasserman: I think like the part that's teachable about grit is that the reflection part, what you said is helping people realize that like it's something. You grow over time and I think that it's like you have to almost focus on realizing that you have it based on like experiences you've dealt with in the past and how those experiences impact where you are now and how you deal with the different things happening to you right now. Charlotte Wasserman: Or it could be like identifying the problem and realizing, you know, what that taught you. , and that's like a practice of grit because you're realizing like, what is something that I one struggled with and how is that teaching me something about like what I could use today? So I think it's more like the teaching part is more of like the realizing and reflecting part and then a real example of grit and I guess how you see it teaching someone something. Charlotte Wasserman: there's I've, I guess I've talked to a lot of people about it, so I'm trying to pick like my favorite one, but let me think for a second. I would say I can use like my own kind of like personal story as an example, but when I was going to college, which was a recent decision, obviously like last year, a year ago today, I was apply, I was hearing back from a bunch of colleges. Charlotte Wasserman: I remember this time specifically I was hearing back from the college of at now. But one thing was like, . My college decisions were back to back two days in a row. One was a rejection from a school that I made an early decision to, and one was a school that I'm currently at right now. And those were a day apart from each other. Charlotte Wasserman: And I chose, well, I mean through all of the other places that I got accepted into later on, I was able to make the decision to go to the school I'm at right now. And that was a school that no one really from, like my hometown, talked about going to. And it was, I knew it was, I was going from Ohio to a school in Texas and a lot of people had a lot of specific things to say about where I was going off to that weren't always. Charlotte Wasserman: Like a lot of like questions like, oh, like why would you go all the way over there? Or I never ha, I don't have any, any family down there. So I was like, oh, this is so nerve-wracking. Like new experiences, new people, something totally outside of my comfort zone. Charlotte Wasserman: But now that I'm there, I realized that like, even though this was maybe like a tougher decision or something that was a little bit different from just going to a school in Ohio maybe where a lot of people went to, I knew it taught me that. Charlotte Wasserman: I could do something where I don't know anybody and like find people to, be friends with or that I could do something that was like outside of the known and be just fine. So that's like an example. Susan Stone: Well, you're more than just fine. You're actually thriving.  Kristina Supler: But it's interesting to hear you speak about, just taking what you've just shared with us the process of settling on your, your college and you made a decision and people were questioning you and you were sort of doing something different from a lot of your peers surrounding you, and then you found new people. Kristina Supler: It makes me think of the "T" and Grit Team. Mm-hmm. so, . How do you know when to change up your team or what to look for in quote unquote teammates  Susan Stone: and teams change. Right, right. Yeah. I think sometimes we realize. Uh, I know I've had a lot of different life experiences and I've, I feel like I'm a cat who's lived nine lives. Susan Stone: Mm-hmm. and sometimes I look back and I think these were lovely people in my life, but they weren't my team. I'm a little bit of an odd duck, wouldn't you say?  Kristina Supler: Yeah. I mean, I think you've especially gone through experiences where there was a place and a time for a relationship that was supportive and meaningful, and then we evolve and. you reevaluate. But Charlotte, I'm, I'm curious to hear more of your thoughts on changing up your team.  Charlotte Wasserman: Yeah. I think it's really important, like topics to talk about because when I was in high school and middle school, I really struggled with finding the right people to surround myself with. Susan Stone: It's hard, it's hard for everyone. Charlotte Wasserman: Yeah. At any, yeah. I guess it's like kinda a constant thing, but I just remember that was a specific time. , I realized I was hanging out with people who weren't really like supportive I guess, of the direction I was heading in. So then I had to decide that I wanted to find people who were gonna be more supportive of that. Charlotte Wasserman: And that was really scary cuz then I was like, oh, well I didn't really know who to lean on to when I was like going through transition of people. But then I realized that, you know, when you do find people who are not only like supportive of what you're working on, but supportive of like your goals and maybe you have some things in common. Charlotte Wasserman: I think that it is really important because it provides some confidence around things that maybe you find that are important to you but also provides like people who, you know, you can, reach back onto when like things are getting really challenging and you might need support that you don't feel like you can provide only by yourself. But I've realized that even if. And even so like, when I went off to college, I knew that it was gonna be a really exciting experience for me to find even more people that I connected with because when I was in high school and initially was trying to find different groups of people that support me, I always felt like really limited cuz I had a really small high school class. Charlotte Wasserman: And then when I went to college I knew like I would have so many different people that are around me, so I could really go and Look for the kind of people that I wanted to surround myself with. And then it just helped me feel like more confident in myself, but also like confident in things I wanted to work on too, which is really important that I found. Susan Stone: And your team's going to grow again? Yeah. After college. It always changes. , it always changes.  Kristina Supler: Absolutely. Well, and I think it's really nice to hear you talk about taking some risk, the g and then having confidence and, and finding your team people to build you up and support. , Tell us about, I, I wonder this idea of grit and your organization is focused on young women. Kristina Supler: Is teaching grit different for boys and girls, or is it the same?  Charlotte Wasserman: I. Honestly don't exactly know what it's like to teach grit to boys cause I've never had that experience before. I do have one brother.  Susan Stone: But you do have two brothers. Charlotte Wasserman: Well, I do. I was just gonna think about that . However, I don't really talk to them about these top. Charlotte Wasserman: Well, I mean I guess like if I ever had an event or was working on something that's a girl's life, obviously they knew about it, but I never like saw the impact of what that could be because I never focused on a group of got boys before. Fair.  Susan Stone: No, that's fair. And you went to an all girls school? Yes. Charlotte Wasserman: Growing up. Had much experiences. Like until, and I still haven't because even at college it's not like I talked to, I don't really there's obviously it's like a co-ed school, but I'm not, I haven't done like an event with boys ever, so I don't really know the difference. I would just say I've always focused on girls because I am a girl and that was an experience that I knew is. Charlotte Wasserman: Some things that girls do are unique to girls course. So that's why of course I kind of chose to focus in that area Kristina Supler: well and it's work you enjoy doing, so that Right. That makes sense.  Charlotte Wasserman: Yes.  Susan Stone: I'm gonna ask a tough question. Okay. Life is not fair and I thought it was. Yeah, well, equitable at all times. Susan Stone: Equitable. At all. At times. And how do you impart grit when some people's problems are just different in scale with what other people have to deal with. I mean, certainly people dealing with broken homes or disease or illness is different than people dealing with. My boyfriend just broke up with me. Susan Stone: Right. I'm  Kristina Supler: Or, or what we sometimes refer to as mean girl behavior or mean  Susan Stone: girl behavior. Yeah. We deal with a lot of parents calling us, saying, my child's bullied and I have to break it to them that bullying is a technical word and. , you can't make people invite you, your child to the birthday party. That is not a reason to call a lawyer. Susan Stone: It's sad, it's painful. Mm-hmm. , but it's not necessarily now total exclusion. Can be bullying, right? Mm-hmm. , it depends to degrees, but what we're seeing is we've seen some really, really, really bad bullying cases where kids have been assaulted and yeah, psychologically devastated, but that is just a difference from someone not. Susan Stone: liking you  Kristina Supler: and Well, and I think parents sometimes have a, a, they recoil a little when they hear us say, oh,  Susan Stone: we're always given bad news, and unpopular news.  Kristina Supler: Well, and, we're not minimizing the impact of, the quote unquote mean girl behavior. But it's just the reality is that not. All obstacles or difficulties are of similar magnitude or import on an individual's life. Kristina Supler: So,  Susan Stone: so I don't know, have you had experience with someone coming to you crying saying, God forbid I have, you know, I, my mom's got, God forbid, cancer, or my father or I don't have enough money, and it just seems like you can't compare problems, but I just wanted to know what your reflection is. scalability of issues in life. Charlotte Wasserman: Right. I think it's definitely interesting cuz I've always thought about how like, it's amazing that like grit can be. Applied to like such different problems and yet, it could still teach people about what to do when they're experiencing those things. So I always thought that's great that there's a, there's like a need for it because you can teach it to people who are going through like very, very different situations such that you talk about that are maybe life threatening and, but you can also teach it to people who are dealing with Problems that are like, you know, the mean girl thing, sort, sort of situation. Charlotte Wasserman: So I always thought that was very interesting how like, one topic could be taught, like people were experiencing very different things. But I remember like a speaker we had at one of our events, we would always have a, an example person who would share their story. And one year it was a speaker who was talking about how she lost her mom when she was really young and how it. Impacted her in a way that made her start something where she could ha have people share their own stories. Not only as like a way to heal, but also to bring attention to what different things people are dealing with and how to talk about hard feelings that are difficult in life because those are really difficult situations. Charlotte Wasserman: And so it's called Never ever Give Up, and it was like a letter writing. Project where people could submit their own stories about what they were dealing with. And she shared those stories. And then we had all of the attendees write their own stories. And so it was really interesting because you're right, people have different types of problems and some of them are. Charlotte Wasserman: do are more urgent than others, I would say. But that doesn't, I've also found that that doesn't mean that and I don't think you're saying this invalidate like different people's problems because they're both problems. It's just different about what their problems kind of entail and how big that's gonna impact them. Charlotte Wasserman: But grit can be taught to both situations.  Susan Stone: That was really. Well said. Well said. Said that you have a tool that works for any type of problem. Wow. I.  Susan Stone: Yeah.  Kristina Supler: Whoa. So Charlotte, you have your own podcast called It's A Girl's Life. What type of topics do you cover? Who are your guests? You plug your  Susan Stone: podcast, Charlotte. Charlotte Wasserman: Oh yeah. Okay. So it's called, it's a Girl's Life. And it's a lot of empowering and inspirational interviews for young women. So we've talked to a lot of not only like female entrepreneurs, because those stories always have a lot of grit I found in the beginning of their stories and throughout. Charlotte Wasserman: But also I've talked to like young women who are like teenagers that are, some of them have been entrepreneurs, some of them have not been. And then also like what I started to get more interested in was different things that young women could be dealing with and inviting on guests to unpack those situations and help them, provide them advice and what to do when you're dealing with those situations. Charlotte Wasserman: So I had an interview yesterday that was really fun, that I really liked, and she was actually a food nutritionist and we talked a lot about how to deal not only with moving away to college and not having like, , everything that like you would have in your home, like kitchen and everything. Charlotte Wasserman: But also like the mindset of food and that can be really get really toxic for girls. So it's just like a very Yeah. How to be healthy. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And something that I think everyone has kind of dealt with, so I thought that was really interesting to hear her opinion about it, but it's just kind of like empowering and educating girls about not only grit but also different specific topics that can help them when they're growing. Susan Stone: I wanna shift focus a little bit. We talk about using grit to develop our own resilience and then getting a team, but I wanna get your insight on what it takes to be a supportive team member. Mm-hmm. , a supportive mentor, or a supportive friend. And I'm gonna share a story about your own mother. Oh, tell us about, yeah, I, I've got a. Susan Stone: Grit, giving gift from your mom. So I was going through a really, really, really dark period and I mean dark. It was bad. And I was on the phone with Halle and I was driving, driving a court that day, and I just was telling her how low I felt and how dark it felt for me, and I just felt like it was never gonna end. Susan Stone: I'm like getting teary talking about this and Hailey, pause. And said, don't you wanna know how your story ends? I'm really curious. I know this is gonna be an awesome story. Kristina Supler: That's a great question.  Susan Stone: Oh my gosh. It was like the best enough of a sudden. I'm like, that's so smart. Yeah. Yeah. It was so smart because it made me think a, she believed in me. Susan Stone: Mm-hmm. . And it made me believe in me because I was like, yeah, I can do this. So I think we all need someone in our life, but can you give a couple tips out there for women, mothers, students on what it takes to be a good team member? . Charlotte Wasserman: Yeah, I think that's something I've definitely been working on like developing over the past few years. Charlotte Wasserman: Cuz I realized like I wanted to find my own kind of group of people, but that also comes with you are becoming part of someone else's group of people as well. And especially with college has, that's been so fun to realize that. I'll find, I'll like make friends and then not only will I go to them for advice, but I see them coming to advice to me, which is really fun and, and like interesting to see. Charlotte Wasserman: But I think some really good things to focus on is like that I'm also always working on is listening. You have to be like a good listener. So important, hear what they're dealing with and, and not always just come like super quick to respond because sometimes like people just need to kind. Talk about what's happening and get it off their chest. Charlotte Wasserman: And then I think that you need to, I feel like it's really important to like maybe share sometimes. Something you're dealing with that can maybe be on like a similar level sometimes because that can help them see like, oh, if she got through this, maybe a similar situation. Or it could be something of different if you haven't gone through the same things, which won't always happen. Charlotte Wasserman: Maybe that could help them kind of see like there is an end like what I might be dealing with. But then also, Sometimes you just don't know what to say, which is also really hard. And so that's when you just like should be honest with them and be like, I've never had to deal with this myself. Charlotte Wasserman: I don't even know, is, this is like a hard thing for me to grasp poo. And I think honesty is always everyone can understand honesty. And it's good to be honest with the people who you care about cuz it like shows that like, not even, go for like telling them the wrong thing. Charlotte Wasserman: You just wanna tell them like, I'm here for you and like you come and talk to me about this. And like, make sure that they know, like you're here to support them as well, I guess.  Susan Stone: I think that's a great curriculum. Mm-hmm. , I think you should really write that down, what you said, and I'm picking up what you're throwing down. Susan Stone: It's great.  Kristina Supler: Charlotte, based on your experiences and then your guests on your podcast and, and the work you're doing with your organization, what is the biggest challenge impacting young women today in your opinion? Charlotte Wasserman: I think one of the biggest challenges is like, overall confidence for girls. I think we, we see that a lot. Charlotte Wasserman: Which is why sometimes girls are really hesitant to not only like start their own thing, but they think that like they just can't do it and they can't get through it. And I think that. It gets true for all ages. Oh my God. outta the mouth. God. Yeah, you're spot on. Yep. Problem that like, I mean, everybody of course has, but I just see a lot in like girls, they just think there's no, yeah. Charlotte Wasserman: And I also think like another thing is they don't think they're like worth being able to get better too, which I think is like really sad because like everyone's worth improve themselves. and then they just don't do anything and they like won't like, try to improve their situation. Charlotte Wasserman: So I think that's definitely a big problem. Susan Stone: what are your dreams for this organization? Is this something that you wanna continue with? Or after you graduate from college, do you think you're gonna pass the baton?  Charlotte Wasserman: Hmm. I think like I've been like, constantly asking myself that as well. Once I went to college, I knew like I wanted to give myself the time to evolve myself and like figure everything out there. Charlotte Wasserman: But now that I've settled more into the college experience I found that like it's definitely impacting girls and girls who are younger than me too has always been a part of me. So I don't ever really see that ever going away because. . Just certain moments in my own experiences where I've seen like the impact we've done has been really inspirational. Charlotte Wasserman: But I think that, I think probably the way that we do what we do will continue to change over time and maybe our mission will change slightly too, but I'm not really sure. And I think that there's definitely still a need for this content to be taught. I just don't know exactly what it will turn. Charlotte Wasserman: Who's we?  Susan Stone: Who do you work with?  Charlotte Wasserman: Oh, well I do, I work with the organization still in California. They're just kind of like the person that I worked with there. Sarah Anderson. She left the organization and started her own coaching business for girls, but we worked together on the events for the past four years, and I would work with her on it, but I also think what, and then we also did some podcast episodes together too, but I. Charlotte Wasserman: something that I always wanted to do was grow the kind of like it's a girls life team and involve some other girls that are around my age to work with them on it because I've always kind of done a lot of the work by myself and I think it's fun to involve other people and help them, like make an impact on girls too. Charlotte Wasserman: So I would love to work on it with someone else as well, but I have to find that person.  Kristina Supler: What do you see as next for the organization?  Charlotte Wasserman: Well, I really want to, since I go to school in Dallas, Texas and it's a really close-knit community I've found so far, especially with the university that I go to. Charlotte Wasserman: I really would love to do an event with Dallas girls in the schools in the area, cuz there's a lot of schools that are right near my college. And then maybe something with college girls. I just don't know what that.  Susan Stone: Kristine and I work with a lot of Greek organizations. Yeah. And  Charlotte Wasserman: That could be cool  Susan Stone: too. Susan Stone: that could be really cool question. Mm-hmm. , do you think sororities are good for building the resilience for girls or do you think the whole rush process where we basically girls go and select on. Criteria that's not always based on depth. Do you think Substitute. Thank you. I was open for the word super blur. Susan Stone: Uh, I mean, do you think sororities take away from resilience, build resilience, or good, bad, or. Neutral.  Kristina Supler: Hmm. Interesting question I had to ask. I'm very curious to hear what your thoughts are, Charlotte. Yeah, this is  Susan Stone: real talk. This is real Talk with Susan and Kristina. You gotta get real  Charlotte Wasserman: with you. Right. I think it's interesting cuz I'm actually gonna go through that process in January myself which I'm really excited about. Charlotte Wasserman: Ooh, you'll have to  Susan Stone: report back. Yeah. We're gonna have you back to talk about do sororities foster resilience.  Charlotte Wasserman: Yeah, it's definitely interesting cause. . There's so much I've been hearing about it for the past few months, but also like so much is still like unknown about the experience. Cause I haven't done it yet. Charlotte Wasserman: But I think it depends on the individual and like what they want out of the process. Because obviously there's some cases where people are going to join a sorority for maybe like the quote unquote wrong reasons. Sometimes It depends what they want out of it. And like for me personally, like I really wanna find like a group of people who have similar like values as me, I guess. Charlotte Wasserman: Like they wanna make an impact with the people that they like surround themselves with, but also like wanna find a group of people that are like supportive. So like knowing that I think is probably setting me apart from other people or just, maybe doing it to. For social stuff, which is obviously another reason why I wanna join sorority, but not the only reason. Charlotte Wasserman: And. It also depend, I don't know, they kept talking to us about we would have these p and m like potential new member meetings before Rush actually started, and they would tell us about like how they viewed it as like a values based system. So how you should be finding the houses that align with similar values as you. Charlotte Wasserman: Probably not. A lot of people think about it as much as I have, but like I always thought about like how that means. Oh, I should be clear than on what I want and why I want it. And hopefully that will work out in the end too.  Susan Stone: Oh, we have to have you come back. Such an interesting  Kristina Supler: gossip. You are such an impressive young woman. Kristina Supler: Oh my gosh. Such a treat speaking with you today, and I really encourage our listeners to check out it's a girl's life and check out the podcast, the organization, everything you have to offer. This has really been a lot of fun.  Susan Stone: and I hope this organization goes viral on every campus. There should be, and it's a girls' life organization everywhere and in every high school, and much success. Susan Stone: I know I am beaming with pride.  Charlotte Wasserman: Thanks for joining so much.

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Meghan Leahy, a parenting coach and a published author of parenting books. They discuss parenting. The conversation includes how parenting has changed over the last 100 years, different approaches parents can use with their child to problem solve, and the importance of building bonds with your community can help with parenting.  Links from the Episode: Meghan Leahy Website Parenting Outside the Lines (Book Link) Show Notes: (2:25) - What is Parenting Coaching? (4:18) - The Parenting Problem Exposed by the Industrial Revolution (5:45) - The Problem with Modern Parenting (7:41) - The Conundrum with Setting Boundaries for Kids (9:43) - Parent Coaching: Finding the Middle Way to Explain Consequences (13:16) - The Collaborative Approaching to Problem Solving with Children (14:30) - What if the child refuses to go to school?  The middle way approach. (16:16) - The Ultimate Goal of Parenting (17:07) - The Consequence of Harsh Parenting (18:20) - The Goal of Meghan's Book for Parents (21:24) - How To View Parenting Over the Long Term (24:05) - Is it ever too late to change how you communicate with your child? (27:03) - Do apologies mean a loss of parental power? (28:15) - Can adults form relationships with children who aren't their own? (30:33) - Creating Micro-Connections with Other Parents In Your Neighborhood (32:06) - How Transmitting Values Builds Stronger Communities (33:34) - The Power of “Do No Harm” Transcript: Susan Stone: Today's podcast is going to discuss the value of using a parenting coach. And Kristina, wouldn't you agree that we deal with parenting issues every day?  Kristina Supler: Oh, uh, In so many different ways, whether we're working on a campus, title IX case, special education, student discipline, there's issues in our practice that really lend themselves to parent coaching  Susan Stone: well, and our clients often look to us to help guide them as to what decision domain. Susan Stone: So much so. That in 2021, both of us became certified in positive discipline, which we've had a podcast on "What is PO positive discipline" and how you can incorporate those thoughts into everyday parenting.  Kristina Supler: We also though, at times, Sort of really believe in the importance of, of using a tough love approach. Kristina Supler: And it really just sort of depends on the context in which we're representing a student and working with families. But we really think it's important to work with all sorts of different outside professionals to support students and their families through crisis. Yeah.  Susan Stone: And we've made a lot of referrals to outside therapists and coaches, and today we're lucky to have a great coach online. Susan Stone: So why don't you kick off and introduce our guest today.  Kristina Supler: Today we are pleased to be joined by Meghan Leahy. Hi. Hi, Megan. Meghan Leahy: Hello. How are you?  Kristina Supler: Great. Megan is a former teacher and school counselor who now owns her own business as a certified parenting coach. She has a master's degree in school counseling from Johns Hopkins University. Kristina Supler: She's a weekly columnist in the on parenting section of the Washington Post, and she's also a published author. Her book is titled, "Parenting outside the lines. Forget the rules, tap into your wisdom and connect with your child". And most importantly, Megan's a mother to three and she brings her real world experience and relatable insights to her work. Kristina Supler: So thanks for joining us, Megan.  Kristina Supler: This is my pleasure. Thank you for having me.  Susan Stone: So we're gonna kick off with a very basic softball question. What is a parenting coach?  Meghan Leahy: Yeah. It's kind of a BSE job, it feels like. I essentially help the same problems I feel like I create. So, , what do you mean? A hundred years ago? Meghan Leahy: Not even that long ago. You didn't need a parent coach. You had a community, a church, a synagogue, a village, a village, and everybody was like-minded. , rightly or wrongly. If everybody was whooping their kids, at least you had that in common. You lived here I  Susan Stone: was whooped. My parents will deny it. Just so you know. I got the belt.  Meghan Leahy: Yeah. Yeah. I got all kinds of things. And so we, we had our family around. and it was a true generational passing down of your ancestry, your lineage, how you parented, good or bad, right? So I'm not gonna paint a picture that it was great. A lot of bad stuff was passed down. Meghan Leahy: And then as we industrial revolution moved away from each other and away from community, we have become increasingly so we had an up down opposite thing. We became obsessed with our kids cuz we had fewer of them, right? And we used to have a lot of kids to work the farm cuz you'd lose some in a bad winter. Meghan Leahy: Do you know what I mean? Like, and women couldn't stop having them. So thank God for the pill. And then as women could have less kids, and we got more obsessed with them. So the obsession went higher and the support went lower. , as religion fell away and as psychology came up, we started to realize that we were sending our kids to therapy when the identified patient should have been the parent. Meghan Leahy: So the kids weren't the problem. , the parents were. And when I say problem, I put that in air quotes. They just need support. They just need somebody to tell them they're doing a good job and here's what else we can do, and here's what is typical child development for this age. They just need support. So that's what I do, that's what I try and do, support them. Kristina Supler: Megan, have parents gotten too soft today? I mean, it's interesting that your initial response sort of looked back in history. in today's time. I mean, I, I just wonder about this issue of soft parenting, cuz I know when I was growing up and being raised, my parents were very strict with rules, boundaries, consequences. Kristina Supler: Yeah. Good or bad. I mean, Susan, it sounds like you had some of that  Susan Stone: as well. Well, I did, but I know that we, I, I know Kristina's parents and I would say they were very effective old school parenting with you, correct. Absolutely shout out to Jim and Dolores . Can we give you a  Kristina Supler: shout out to my wonderful parents? Kristina Supler: It just seems today as we're dealing with families in crisis and in various contexts, cuz of course we're lawyers. So generally when, when people are with us, it's because they're at a low point in their life. Often it's feels as though parents are reluctant to impose rules. What are your thoughts on that? Meghan Leahy: Yeah. So what what you see in society is bing bonging from one extreme to another. So if we were in a scene not heard kids were at the very bottom of the totem pole we came out of an agricultural kind of, I mean, remember, humans have been around a long time. We think we're important. We are not. We are a speck of sand in this universe, and even in the longevity of humans. Meghan Leahy: Here we go. Now you're asking me have parents gone soft. So they were too harsh. Mm-hmm. , right? Not in every culture, but let's just take culture. Right. And harsh for no reason. Mm-hmm. , right, right. And controlling for no reason. But kids were also given a little bit more freedom to go outside, to go into woods to. Meghan Leahy: now we fast forward and we didn't like how we were raised. A lot of us, so we swing too much into the other extreme. Sure. So back in the day, if you went to go, you know, if you were little and you kicked your parents in the shins, right? You got spanked. You got sent to your room, you got yelled at, you got harshly reprimanded. Kristina Supler: If you said, no, I won't do that, you were in  Meghan Leahy: trouble. Right? Harshly reprimanded, right? Oh, I  Susan Stone: got soap in the mouth when I used the F word as a little girl. I still remember that. Me, me too. I, I was a mouthy kid. And the soap in the  Meghan Leahy: mouth, you want a trauma bond over it. We can .  Susan Stone: The funny thing is I don't look back on it as being traumatic. Susan Stone: I think it was. what you did when you had a mouthy kid. And I was Back then. Back then?  Meghan Leahy: Yeah. Back then. So what we have now is though, is that people don't wanna be raised how they were raised. And so then they go into when the kid kicks them in the shins, they're like, please don't kick mommy. Meghan Leahy: That makes me feel sad, right? There is. , a lack of boundaries, and the kid doesn't respond well to that either. So if you look at it as a fence around a house, if the fence is too tight around the house, that leads to disobedience. Power struggles. Rebellion. Rebellion or shame, right? If the fence goes too wide away from the house, the kids don't know where the boundaries are. The natural hierarchy is not in order, and the kids don't feel safe. So as humans, we feel safe when we know where the rules are. Now, what I see a lot is people saying, well, I was raised like this, and I'm fine. Great. Somehow, right? Like somebody's temperament with how their parents were with their birth order Meghan Leahy: that alchemy. Oh,  Susan Stone: first children, right? Those first born, no,  Meghan Leahy: first children are hot mess. . They're cage, they're ill. They are perfectionistic. Yeah. They are highly medicated and very successful. Yes, I would agree. Yes. And oh, they look great, but go live with them. Okay. I'm a firstborn. Married to a firstborn. Meghan Leahy: We're a fricking nightmare.  Kristina Supler: I love your analogy about the fence around the house, though. I think that's, I love it. That's, that's really  Meghan Leahy: good. And why this is good is that different kids need different fences even within the same house. Sure. Yes, yes.  Susan Stone: Yeah. You know what, we were just, uh, I was just talking. I have a junior. Susan Stone: It's time to really kick it in for college, and that's a really real consequence. I'm not imposing it saying kick it in. You need to really finish your junior year with great grades and great scores, or  Kristina Supler: you might not go to the schools you wanna go to. That's,  Susan Stone: that's not me imposing the rule. That's the world. Meghan Leahy: So in what I do in my parent coaching is I find the middle way, give us the middle  Susan Stone: way under that fact pattern. Okay. Let's talk about grades and scores.  Meghan Leahy: Okay, so let's say you have a kid, junior year, has spent the last two and a half years in some kind of BS covid situation. Sure, yep. With you. , they have lost social skills. Meghan Leahy: Mm-hmm. skills within the classroom, confidence building skills, as well as important learning skills. English and math are the lowest they have ever been since they have started testing in the sixties. A  Kristina Supler: bunch of news articles have come out recently highlighting that, and it's, it's  Susan Stone: in the new, it was in the New York, York Times, and I heard SAT scores and ACT scores are down by five points, which is a lot. Meghan Leahy: So now, now we come in hot as parents. Mm. . Okay. So we are bringing our old expectations to a new way of life, So the old way is I'm gonna sit you down. You're gonna do this work, you're gonna apply these schools, you're gonna write these essays, you're gonna get this resume. Do, do, do, do. One way. The opposite is, well snooze, you lose, you don't do it. Meghan Leahy: You're f okay, the middle way is "Hey, Brian. Things have been a little wacky. We are like out of the habit of maybe some organizational skills. What's important to you this year? When you look ahead?" They may look at you and be like, blink. Blink. What do you mean? Well, let's look ahead, right? Let's look ahead and so you start at the beginning. Meghan Leahy: That is the middle way of where are we now? Where can we go given what your kid is experiencing. So natural consequences for kids who are suffering only cause more suffering. So if you are have a broken leg and you're at the bottom of the stairs and I scream at you, get up the stairs, what is, well, the consequences are you don't get up the stairs. Meghan Leahy: who would ever do that to another human?  Susan Stone: No, but it is a real consequence. So I, I wanna challenge you on this. . Sure. Okay. Are you up for the challenge? Kristina and I All day work? Yeah, all day. Kristina and I work with kids who are accused of various misconducts at college or younger in college. In college. Susan Stone: It could be sexual assault. It could be cheating, and some of our cases, they're at real risk of getting indicted, let's say, a hazing case.  Meghan Leahy: Okay. And, and  Kristina Supler: we have cases in the criminal justice system, so yeah.  Susan Stone: It is cruel to say, get your act together, or you could get kicked outta school or get charged. But guess what? Susan Stone: Those are the facts, Jack, right? Yep. Yeah. So. . I, I, I can't, as a lawyer and Kristina as a lawyer, I can't soften that. That is the real world face in you, babe. Yeah. So what do you do when you have opportunities like get your grades up, get your scores up, live right? I I, yes. You won't get up to the top of that stair. Susan Stone: So give us a mid-level approach that's kinder, but real, real world base. How  Kristina Supler: do you coach under those circumstances? . Yeah.  Meghan Leahy: So, I really love the Ross Greene approach, g r e e n E. This is a collaborative problem solving approach, which takes both needs of both parties into equal weight. Okay? So, for instance, the parents are saying okay, this kid has Cs, but you wanna go to UNC. Meghan Leahy: And the kid is saying, well, I don't really care. Right? You meet in the middle with Ross Green's approach, where you start to work on small problem solving, small amounts of problem solving. Because for the average adolescent, now listen, when they're 18 and they've been, they've hazed someone like. Meghan Leahy: What's gonna happen is gonna happen, right? My work is when people call me for the ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen year old. If we can work with them there you are less likely to have a kid who is going to sexually assault while drunk, haze somebody while drunk, right? Like make these decisions with lifelong impacts. Meghan Leahy: So my interest is problem solving in the middle way. It is easier. in the moment to say sink or swim. It's, it's easier. It's easier for the parent. It's easier to go like this. But for instance, I have a kid who, I had a parent family who the kid stopped attending school. It's a lot of school refusal. Meghan Leahy: We've dealt  Susan Stone: with that. Yeah. Yeah. And actually running away from home. We've dealt with that too. Yeah.  Meghan Leahy: And so they, they were we're gonna send them away to this wilderness  Susan Stone: camp. Oh my gosh. We deal with school with that.  Meghan Leahy: Yeah. Yep. So I said, okay, so your kid's gonna wake up, be grabbed by strangers and taken to Utah. Meghan Leahy: Do you wanna destroy your relationship with them forever? My questions are, are they addicted to drugs? Are they a danger to themselves? Are they a danger to anyone in the house? No. No, no. Oh, okay. So you want to rip them away from the family when they're already struggling. Oh, well, I guess not. Meghan Leahy: Okay, so the middle way became how do we make small movements toward, so rather than the answer is go to school or not go to school, it's What does online school look like One hour a day? , then it's two hours a day? It's  Susan Stone: that mid-level approach. Well,  Kristina Supler: I I, i, I hear your point, and I think it's an excellent one that there, there's gotta be buy-in from both sides. Kristina Supler: Otherwise, you're not making any progress. Meghan Leahy: I'm not looking, wait. My goal in my human life while I'm here is to not crush souls. . Right? So by the time they get to you guys and they're looking at jail time, that's soul crushing on that side. Yeah, it really is. That's, that's a life ender for a lot of these kids. Meghan Leahy: Yeah. That's now their invitation into not being able to have a good career, not being surrounded by the right people. Not being right. So my job on the front end is for that child to look at the parents and the parents' eyes say to them, I love. , I am here for you. I'm not giving up on you. Ever. Mm-hmm. Meghan Leahy: ever. And we have goals every day. We have goals. Whether your kid is eating disordered, cutting themselves, in dangerous behaviors, not doing homework. For me, always having an adult in that children's life that says, I'm never gonna give up on you. Ever. ,  Meghan Leahy: that's beautiful. And, and it builds or can help build a sense of security. Meghan Leahy: And again, the bring the fence maybe really wide back in a little bit. To tie back to your initial point, the only  Meghan Leahy: way a human has moved forward besides the military is through connection. Mm-hmm. , humans do not move forward with carrots and sticks. Now, if we take on parenting as the beatings will continue until morale improves, you will get the behavior you want, but you will not get a relationship you want. Susan Stone: That's right.  Kristina Supler: Let's lighten it  Susan Stone: up a little bit. Oh gosh.  Kristina Supler: I need that . We, we got heavy, we got a little dark, but really, really important. And valuable insights. So thank you for sharing that. And, and  Susan Stone: thank you for trying to lighten it up already. Susan Stone: I was like going, oh my God, I haven't had my lunch and not enough coffee.  Kristina Supler: Let's talk about parenting outside the lines. So your book is, it's funny, it's informative, it's full of really practical advice. For our listeners out there, share a little bit of your humor with our parents. Share a little bit about the book that you think parents should know about. Kristina Supler: So they go check it out. Meghan Leahy: I tell a lot of my own stories with my own kids, which is its own s show. And me growing up I Meghan Leahy: I, this is a parenting book where I just want somebody to read it and go, oh, I don't feel as bad. It's not lofty. I don't want you to put it down and go, oh my God, I'm a changed person. Cause I haven't really ever seen that happen. , right? Um, it's like reading books about stomach crunches. Nobody gets outta bed and does them , right? Meghan Leahy: I want somebody to just read the book and go, oh, right. So for instance you know, when I open the book, I just go through all of the different parenting styles, helicopter parenting, snowplow parent, all the different iterations, right? And you people will recognize themselves in those. Meghan Leahy: And I say it's okay. if it works. I'm trying to kind of lift the burden of parenting one way.  Susan Stone: Right. You know, I was thinking about humor and Kristine and I have a really heavy practice. We deal with serious issues. And what gets it, you mean the me Too sign? Yeah. No, it's, every day is challenging and I know that What gets me through the day is the fact that I just have to say this. Susan Stone: My law partner Kristina Supler is hilarious. Well, thank you. Isn't that amazing? I know, and you know, a lot of people don't get that side of her because she is such a consummate professional, but really that's what gets us through the day is that we have to  Meghan Leahy: laugh. You have to laugh. Well, one of the things, when I coach with people and in the book, you know, I would be getting a one-year-old, a four-year-old, a seven-year-old out of the house by myself. Meghan Leahy: Um, my husband went to work at 5:00 AM Everybody was screaming ins in some sort of undress, right? Like never fully dressed. And I'm supposed to be the parent coach on my block, right? So I'm in a full flop sweat and we're late and we get in the car and I click everyone in and I'm like, we made it, we're in the car, we've won the day. Meghan Leahy: Victory . And all the kids are like, what? , okay, whatever  Kristina Supler: Mom drive, right?  Meghan Leahy: This is winning. I'm a, oh, this is winning. Right. You know,  Susan Stone: one of the things that I wanna share on a personal level of what winning is, and I. my number two. They always say that number one are rule followers. And then number two, always likes to break the rules in three rules. Susan Stone: What are they? I don't know if you've ever heard that. Yeah. But I was just talking to my 23 year old and seeing the adult come out. Mm.  Susan Stone: Like that is the payback, you know? A hundred percent. Yeah. But you sometimes.  Kristina Supler: You wondered  Susan Stone: if you'd ever get there. I didn't think I'd ever get there. And he is amazing. Susan Stone: Really. And he's, it's so gratifying. It really is gratifying. Yeah.  Meghan Leahy: And I think, part of the, the hard part for all of us is that you're parenting for the long game. Right? This, it's hard to explain to parents sometimes That the small gestures they're making right now manifest years down the road. Meghan Leahy: So one of the major things that I teach parents is the family meeting. It's just really getting together and talking, right? And, um, and it has rules around it and, and it sounds so dumb with a three-year old. Right. Like, what is your rose and thorn? What did you love about Oh, we do that in my  Kristina Supler: house. .  Meghan Leahy: Right. But eventually, you know what it's turned into, at least in my family, is, um, you know, well, let's sit down. Meghan Leahy: Um, mom, there's a boy being bullied in my class, and if I speak up, I'm bullied too. Ah, uh, okay. But what do we do about. . Right? It's, it's like  Kristina Supler: a beautiful sort of invitation for the kids to speak about whatever's on their mind.  Meghan Leahy: And so the parents though, have to create that. Mm-hmm. , because in our culture today, there's not time. Meghan Leahy: We just pick up our kids and bring them to A, and bring them to B and drop them off at a, and then take them to soccer and then to like, we actually have to consciously create that time.  Susan Stone: You know what I say? The goal in life is that we spend a couple years diapering our kids, and if we do it right, they'll wanna diaper us one day when we can't make it to the bathroom. Susan Stone: And, and, and all of us who've been through menopause, you know what I'm talking about  Meghan Leahy: right? Oh geez. as I sweat right now. But you know, talking about like your son being an adult and being so proud of him, right. That is the result of a lot of what you didn't do, like has nothing to do with you in many ways, which is the mind f of parenting, like sperm met egg in there. Meghan Leahy: He was all, all his potentiality. , all his IQ, hype, goodness, all everything, right? And then we are the gardeners, right? We make sure that he can fully grow up. So we, we are both in helping him and getting out of the way.  Susan Stone: Yeah, I like that, the gardener cuz sometimes you need to add water and sometimes you need to pinch something off. Susan Stone: I mean, that's a good metaphor since, uh, your husband. That's his biz. Right?  Susan Stone: It is working with his plants. Well, so  Kristina Supler: let me ask you, Megan, you're we're talking about when our children grow. What's your advice for parents of older kids, say late teens college? Is it ever too late to change things to sort of rewire how you communicate with your children and your family dynamic?  Susan Stone: Even if you screwed it up badly? Meghan Leahy: No, it's never too. . It's never too late. And they used to think it was, and now neuroscientists know it's not. And also we can't blow smoke. It's hard when a parent has realized they have mistepped and they have done the work to see that, and they're ready to apologize and humble themselves. That does not automatically click the dominoes into forgiveness and changing of behavior in the child. Meghan Leahy: So if you have a older teen that you have bossed around since they were born, or shamed or manipulated, and you see the light and you get help , you have to kind of see it as like, that's how far off I 95 you drove maybe for 18 years. So to get back to I 95 is gonna be that journey too. Mm-hmm. . So there is, there has to be a, a cultivation of patience and persistence because humans, when I tell you, oh, I've changed. Meghan Leahy: Oh, that's nice. Prove it. Prove it. Prove it. prove it. But one of the most important things to know about kids of all ages, including us, is that we are always hungry for a relationship with our parents. It never, it  Susan Stone: never, absolutely. Oh, it never ends. And our family, I mean, I was on the phone last night with my 99 year old aunt, and I check in once a week or so with her and Right. Susan Stone: She's very meaningful in my life.  Meghan Leahy: and that is should give people a lot of hope that even if there is an apology to make and something to make right, As a parent that deep desire to be connected to your family never goes away. Never goes away.  Kristina Supler: It's interesting, Megan, as I'm listening to you talk, I'm, I'm, I'm thinking, and it's sort of, it, it, please correct me if I'm wrong, but a theme throughout your work is this idea of vulnerability. You, you're vulnerable in sort of putting your family's own stuff out there. You know, some days you get it, right? Mm-hmm. , sometimes you get it wrong. And what we just talked about, the analogy of having the car off the highway and turning it around, and really at the heart of that is parents, admitting to their own children. Kristina Supler: Look, I, I made a mistake, I screwed up. Let, let's, let's regroup it. It's okay to do that. And that's a means of forming connection .  Meghan Leahy: Oh, one of the biggest, right? In therapy, they call it rupture repair. It's like the basis of a human relationship. In my book, I have a, a chapter on apologizing, right? And it's, you know, what's a good apology? Meghan Leahy: What isn't, how it works, how it doesn't. Because everyone thinks connection looks like going to the zoo or going to the park, or all these things, right? The obvious things. But connection. Humility, vulnerability, and you can absolutely apologize while keeping all of your parental power.  Susan Stone: You know, I do wanna go back and circle to the village idea because I still. Susan Stone: It's not just on parents. I think we have to all do our part for being, playing a role in children that are not our own. That might be our friend's kids. You know, when I grew up, my mother had, she passed her best friend from seventh grade cooking class. And I considered her like an aunt Aunt Eileen and Aunt Eileen would remember me and buy me, I remember this, I wanted desperately a Bonnie Ball lip smacker, and I got that from Aunt Eileen. Kristina Supler: They were amazing.  Susan Stone: They were amazing . And I was thinking today that Kristina came into the office with York Peppermint Patties from her son James. I mean, I just trick-or-treating  Susan Stone: leftovers. Amazing. Yeah.  Susan Stone: Yep. And I think that, , it's on. We've become so insular bec Yes, especially with Covid, that we forget that we are a community and we can form relationships with children not our own. Susan Stone: And that can be deep and meaningful for kids.  Meghan Leahy: The science is very clear that as soon as a baby is born, whoever picks up that baby is the parent. because mothers die during childbirth all the time. Not to be dark, but I just, there's a big kind of culture of like mother love and the specialness. Meghan Leahy: Biologically, that's not it. Okay. Biologically we can connect to anyone in those early days of life who loves us. Right? And that continues and continues throughout our life. And the power of showing up . For, for your community though, I just wanna be very clear for everyone listening, you are not crazy if it's hard. Meghan Leahy: All our culture makes it hard. We are both in suburban homes where the garage door shuts and we're on this, so you have to decide to reach out. You have to decide to like go out on your front yard and invite the neighbors over. You have to decide to do what you want to do. It's not as organic as it used to be. Meghan Leahy: Even maybe when we were growing up, right, where the kids were here or there, and you knew the neighbor, and the neighbor knew the, and your family and your cousins. , it's harder for families now.  Kristina Supler: So I hear sometimes people talk about how, you know, back in the day, the good old days, kids would just walk around the neighborhood and pop in and out of everyone's house here, there, and everywhere, and parents often didn't even know where their kids are versus now where. Kristina Supler: It's a sche, uh, uh, a structured schedule and you schedule play dates, you know, in 30 minute increments, weeks out. And, you know, it's sort of this discussion of why can't we go back to the good old days? And I think it's something that, you know, as you point out, it's important to be really mindful of the ways to build connection, both intentionally but also perhaps organically. Meghan Leahy: And remember, you know, when you are running the carpools, when you're standing on the sidelines at the soccer tournament in the gymnastics thing. The, these are micro ways to create connection. Mm-hmm. , these are little teeny ways to tell the kids, get off your phones. Tell me what's going on. Right. To pick up a headline to turn to the parent. Meghan Leahy: I mean, like how, how have you guys been? Right? Like, cuz we're not gonna return to everyone running around and frankly, the good old days were not great in a lot of ways. But, but we can. , we can stop and do little micro connections. Even sending another parent an email like, I saw your son on the field today and he picked up the opposing teams player like by the arm after he knocked him down. Meghan Leahy: What a great kid. Absolutely.  Kristina Supler: And and I think so often we're looking for these really formalized opportunities to build connection and it doesn't have to be that,  Susan Stone: and you wanna form those connections so kids Feel responsible that, you know, not to get all religious on anybody, whatever faith, but am I my brother's keeper? Susan Stone: Totally. Are we responsible for one of them? And you know, that's a universal spiritual concept is that we live, we're social, we care about each other. And this is such a divisive time that I think connecting on a human level is important. I think when you have that foundation you wanna do  Meghan Leahy: well. Yeah, and I really love what you say there cuz you're, what you're talking about is transmitting values. And there's a couple different ways to do it. Meghan Leahy: One is modeling it, one is saying it one, like every parent can say, what's my wheelhouse? What am I good at and how can I do connections? , right? Like maybe you're just good at the grocery store connections, but let your kids see it and tell them why it matters. There's not a one size fits all approach. No, correct, correct. Meghan Leahy: Maybe you are the organizer parent. Maybe you are the block party parent. Enjoy that. Find what your thing is and also the different seasonality of our lives. So I have a bunch of tweens and teens. I just sent one to college. I'm actually super tired right now. The only thing I can focus on is I've decided to get to know the parents of my youngest kid. Meghan Leahy: That is my focus for this year. Everything else I'm not doing. That's okay. Right?  Kristina Supler: And saying no can be freeing.  Meghan Leahy: Yes. And so look at what do I have the energy for? How old are my kids? What is my work life balance? What is real for me right now? You know, it's  Susan Stone: funny, I was thinking about this energy thing. Susan Stone: That's a real thing. Kristina and I were just on a business trip together and it was grueling. It was grueling. And of course she has younger kids, so she had to go trick-or-treating. Not hat, wanted to, but wanted to, but yes, wanted two. But I, like I had to get in my jammies and crawl in bed. Yeah. You know? Susan Stone: Yeah. That's a real thing.  Meghan Leahy: and paying attention to it is a gift to the world, right? Because especially women, you know, we have the invisible labor constantly. Mm-hmm. , constant, invisible labor. Yes. Schedule keeper, schlepper to the doctor, caretaker of the dog care, making sure there's milk, constant email watching, and that's not even our work. Meghan Leahy: No. Right. getting into bed and resting is, is a gift because I say a lot to parents when I coach. Um, it's not very sexy, but one of the big things we work on is doing no harm. How can you do no harm? Mm-hmm. , how can you not do damage to your spouse, to your kids?  Susan Stone: How about this? We so often wanna put on social media this picture of us smiling and at this social event or that social event, but maybe it's when the phone is off, the doors are closed. Susan Stone: Are we treating the people in our home like the best? Right? And doing it when no one's looking. Mm. ?  Meghan Leahy: No, not usually. We usually, here's what's funny too, is that we come home from work or get offline and go down and we're like this and we're dead and we've, we don't have a lot left. And now there's dinner and you know, a night ahead of you. Meghan Leahy: Right. And we're not our best selves. Our kids are the same. They are, and we call it misbehavior. Yeah. We blame them when their cups are empty. Why are you rude? Who do you think you are? Why are you sassy? Why don't you wanna sit down and do that stupid math worksheet? Let's, which, let's face it, is stupid. What's wrong with why are you right? Meghan Leahy: We are not any better . Yeah. I was thinking  Kristina Supler: you're the, your comment about the goal of doing no harm and how. Some people might respond, well, gee, isn't that, isn't that a low bar? Do no harm? Yes. Come on. Because we're  Meghan Leahy: low bar, a  Kristina Supler: high achieving drive, drive, drive society. But I think that it's actually really accurate and, and I, I like your points about parents thinking about how they feel when they come home from work. Kristina Supler: Kids feel the same way, but we label it with a negative. We, we put a negative label on it. Susan Stone: I'm a big believer in saying to a kid, why don't you? What would be your good transition activity? For my oldest, she loved tv. Or is it getting into a hot shower? How can you, you know? I know when I get home, the first thing I like to do is get outta my work clothes and put on my jammies. Kristina Supler: Me too. I'm the same way. My husband doesn't get it. Oh my God. Pajamas on at like six 30. I'm like, yes. Free  Meghan Leahy: the  Susan Stone: girls. Free the girls.  Meghan Leahy: Well, I mean, yeah, people come into the house with my bras sitting on the couch, and of course I'm at an age where I'm like, whatever. Oh,  Susan Stone: I'm with you. I'm with you. Anyways, this has been, this has been a real treat. Susan Stone: Really fun. I feel like if you were in Cleveland, you'd be our  Kristina Supler: girlfriend. Yeah, I'd say let's go get wine. Thank you so much for joining us. Meghan Leahy: One of my favorite cousins, li moved out to Ohio and uh, her husband works at the Cleveland Clinic and so does she. And I will say it's been like a culture shock for her a little bit, but her son is at a high school. She says she's never met so many lovely, lovely people. Susan Stone: Well, hopefully this is the beginning. Wonderful family for us as a new friendship. Kristina Supler: Yes, Meghan Leahy, thank you so much for joining us today. And to our listeners check out her book and her other work on columns and she's all over the internet, so thank you. Yeah. And  Meghan Leahy: check out us. Thank you guys for all the hard work you're doing on this other end of the hard behavior. Meghan Leahy: It's rough, so definitely keep your spirits up as it gets darker. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks. 

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Professor Niobe Way, a professor of developmental psychology and the founder of the Project for the Advancement of Our Common Humanity at New York University.  They discuss recognizing the need for closeness and intimacy in boys. The conversation includes why boys have been keeping their desire to have close relationships with fellow boys hidden, the true meaning of deep friendships and how society has gradually been distorting it, and what toxic masculinity is and how it can be prevented. Links: Professor Niobe Way's Webpage: Website: https://steinhardt.nyu.edu/people/niobe-way  Show Notes: (03:10) How Dr. Niobe Way discovered the deep secret that every boy in the world keeps (04:20) How culture is urging boys to keep their need for intimate relationships among other boys a secret (05:17) What each boy who had not grown out of touch with their feelings, unlike the majority, have in common (07:56) Can boys in college form lifelong friendships with other males? (09:04) How can you tell if you and your fellow guy friend actually have a deep friendship? (10:20) What society and their stereotypes is still getting wrong about boys (11:49) What is toxic masculinity? (12:24) Redefining society's concept of what makes boys, boys; aka “boy culture” (14:08) Gender identity and fluidity: are pronouns really the problem? (16:44) How the definition of friendship has been distorted by today's day and age (19:05) Can close friendships outside of your marriage prevent divorce?  (19:47) The 2 things every marriage needs in order to last (20:50) The best piece of advice for every boy mom and dad (21:01) How to get boys to talk openly about their needs instead of engaging in toxic masculinity (22:26) Why you should ask questions and let your boys make their own deductions instead of imposing your beliefs of how males should act or feel  Transcript: Susan Stone: Today's topic is understanding boys and their need for close connection and intimacy. You know, Kristina, when we started out. Our practice, we were mostly representing young men who were involved in disciplinary situations. And it wasn't until recently that I would say our statistics have evened out to a more balanced representation, but we're also the mother of boys. And I think we can both say that having both boys and girls as children and clients, boys are just as sensitive as girls. Wouldn't you think that?  Kristina Supler: Oh, absolutely. I know my, my son is, is. In some ways, if we have the gender stereotypes, there's almost role reversal there. My son versus my daughter. But you know, it's interesting at today's topic regarding boys and intimacy, because I think that through the pandemic, if there's one thing we've really honed in on, it's the fact that all humans really crave connection. Susan Stone: It's a really good point. And with that, why don't you introduce today's guest who's gonna really speak about the topic of boys craving close connection.  Kristina Supler: Today we're pleased to be joined by Professor Niobe Way, who is a professor of developmental psychology and the founder of the Project for the Advancement of Our Common Humanity at New York University. She's also the past president of the Society for Research on Adolescence and Co-Director of the Center for Research on Culture Development and Education at nyu. Professor Way's work focuses on the intersections of culture, context, and human development with a particular focus on social and emotional development, and how cultural ideologies influence developmental trajectories. Dr. Niobe Way: That was a mouthful. That is a mouthful. ,  Kristina Supler: thank you so much for joining us Professor Way. We're pleased to have you.  Susan Stone: So let's kick it off with your book that we read and Deep Secrets. Deep Secrets by Doctor or Professor Niobe Way. The premise of your books is that boys crave close connection and that our culture stymies that development of deep friendships in the teenage years. Does that accurately summarize your book, Professor?  Dr. Niobe Way: Yeah, absolutely. And first I wanna say thank you for having me on. I love, this is my favorite topic I've been wanting to engage this conversation, uh, at this point for decades, so I'm, I'm glad that's getting more attention right now, which I think we should talk about at some point. Why is it getting more attention right now?  But but yeah, that does summarize my book. And the thing that's interesting to me is that I have been making these observations and then interviewing boys since the late eighties where they're telling me the same story. By now, it's sort of thousands of boys. I follow them over time. Since I'm a developmental psychologist, I follow the same boys over time. And you get the same story. I got the same story in the early 1980s as I'm, I am getting now. I, I follow boys in different countries, not just the United States. And I get the same story, which is that essentially. They start off in early adolescence when I usually start the interviews, interviewing them about also of parts of their lives, not just their friendships. I interview them about their family relationships and school, et cetera, et cetera, identities. And then we get to a, uh, the section on friendships and investigating friendships, and pretty much the story is same around the world. Which is boys talk about at 11, 12, 13, 14, sometimes into 15 as well. Um, their desire for close friendships, their desire for what boys call it, deep secret friendships, which is they're able to tell, share their secrets with other boys, and specifically with other boys. They, they, some of the boys, we can talk about this. Some of the boys have friendships with girls, of course. That's normal too. But what's interesting to me is that boys will also say even if they have friendships that are girls, they'll talk about wanting friendships, intimate friendships with boys in which they can share their deep secrets. And as they get older, as you mentioned , uh, you know, and we'll talk about, it's specifically an American culture, but American culture gets globalized unfortunately in this, in this respect. That they, it's perceived now the intimacy is perceived as so-called girly and gay. And even in a culture, and this is interesting to me, even in a culture that's becoming more open to different sexualities, it still pathologizes being sort of gay in a homophobic way and thus discouraged for boys, especially boys who identify as straight. And so they struggle to hold onto their friendships as they get older. And many boys, by the time they're young men, are struggling with issues of isolation and loneliness and frustration to not be able to find the friendships they have.  And one thing I do wanna throw out there, just so it can be part of our conversation, Some boys who are an exception to that. And I wanna talk about why I think they, you do get exceptions to that. It sounds like your son makes,  Kristina Supler: What are the exceptions? Yeah, Yeah. Well, that's great. Tell us about that.  Dr. Niobe Way: So, what's interesting to me is, so, so the, the general pattern is that sense of, as the pressures to man up happen over time, through adolescence, boys start to disconnect from their feelings and are sound more, uh, frustrated and angry and sad. Or just disconnected rather than that sort of lovely voice of wanting deep friendships.  The exceptions of the boys that are able to hold onto their friendships. And even through the five, six years of our studies, they, they are able to hold onto these, this close friendship and they sound sort of consistently quite satisfied and happy in their friendships. And the, the key difference in, and I had a student who did a dissertation on this. Was that they had relationships with at least one member of their family that was very, very close. So, and typically it was their mother and sometimes it was their sister. But it was somebody in the family in which they could really be themselves with. And that actually, this is what I wanna say to all mothers and all fathers and all family members, that actually nurtures our human capacity to deeply connect to others because you're learning the skill of it. It's getting encouraged in you. You know the skills. So when there's a problem in the friendship, you know how to deal with it. So it really was having at least one member, and typically it was the mom who actually nurtured that kind of deep connection that allowed the boy to take those skills and use it with their friends. Susan Stone: Professor way, I wanna challenge you a little bit on this. Yes. Because, Contrary to what I think a lot of people will argue, the dangers of fraternities, the pros, the good things about fraternities, and Kristina and I were just on Fraternity Foodie, the podcast. Yep. I will say when we work with boys and fraternities, that they feel very intensely connected to their fraternity brothers. What do you think, Kristina?  Kristina Supler: Well, it's interesting because oftentimes I feel like in those cases, Inevitably things get upside down in, in some respect and relationships. I, I think we regularly see our male students realize that those bonds they thought they had actually weren't as deep and when, when the going got tough, Yeah. All of a sudden, you know, the student, our clients, felt on an island and it's sort of shocking. Like I thought these were my brothers, the deepness. I mean, that's sort of what I see often.  Susan Stone: But on the other hand, I wanna challenge you. We've had, especially in um, certain cases where the boys really did cry over losses together. Sure. Share their feelings. Yeah. Um, and you do see boys during their college years form friendships that last a lifetime.  Dr. Niobe Way: Yeah, I mean, I, I absolutely, I mean that, that's why I said it was important to talk about sort of boys who were able to, I, I'll, I'm gonna answer both of your, your comments boys who are able to hang on to their closest and their vulnerability, and it really is in some sense the, the issue you raise about, Thinking they're close, but they're not as close as they expected was, is a common thing. So oftentimes I, I do a lot of interviews. I do a lot of radio interviews. And I will get men calling me and saying you know, I have, I have lots of friendships. I don't know what you're talking about. And I'll say, Okay. So that's what, first of all, that's wonderful cuz it's nice to have lots of friendships.  And then what we'll get into conversations is there's somebody you could go to if there's something that happens between you and your wife? Or something that happens that's quite vulnerable for you. And he, and then it'll very quickly turn into, well, no, no, no, I wouldn't talk about that. No, I wouldn't talk about that. And then it turns into often, not all the time, but oftentimes I know conversation. Well, it would be nice to have someone to talk about that stuff with. So the, the friendships that boys are really asking for in early adolescent, is not the sort of bromance, uh, the stereotypical brother, which a lot of boys want also.  But oftentimes the boy or the friendships is they're really talking about those they can be very, very vulnerable with, reveal their weaknesses, talk about their insecurities with. And I find that fraternity brothers, which I've certainly interviewed lots of them often times say there's a, there's a sort of a facade of closeness that they have to have as fraternity brothers. But once you scratch the surface, many of them don't feel like they can re really reveal their insecurities and their sense of that they're not quite good enough. All those feelings that most people have especially in college context. So, I think that the desire to have those sort of deep secret friendships where you can truly be vulnerable with that person and not just cry actually, but actually reveal your insecurities with and try to work them through I just think is, uh, is what they're looking for. Now I have to say, cuz we're all moms of sons it doesn't necessarily mean that they find these friends, even if they want them, . So I'm saying even in early adolescence that the theme is that boys talk about wanting them. And then you get a lot of boys, including my son who didn't necessarily find those friendships in early adolescents and middle adolescents. And only, I would say really found them in, in, uh, in eventually in college. Uh, but the idea is that that desire is, is very, very clear. And we don't think it's a desire that boys have. And I have to throw out this cuz it's really important. Even now, even now, 2022, July, 2022, we still have the stereotype that wanting intimacy in your friendship with same sex intimacy where you're not gay is a girly gay thing. So you have it in a recent article in The Guardian. You have a illusion to boys being mil, boys and men being evolutionary different. You know, where their evolution doesn't allow them for that intimacy. I mean, we still have these incredibly misguided false stereotypes about boys and men not wanting that intimacy. Kristina Supler: So let me ask you and, and then this issue of stereotypes. When Susan and I do a lot of work across the country with college students in the Title IX landscape. And we often represent respondents who are more often than not male. Yes. And so we come across the phrase regularly, toxic masculinity. Yeah. Do you, do you agree that toxic masculinity I is a thing? Um, is this label justified or not? And can male students really form friendships while still deep friendships, while still trying to be quote unquote masculine?  Susan Stone: Or circling back to that first point that you wanted us to get to? Yeah. Are we in a crisis? Dr. Niobe Way: Yeah, exactly. Okay, so I have a couple things that you could imagine. I've, I've spent my life thinking about this, so I, I could go on a couple hours about this, but I'll keep it short. There's, of course there's toxic masculinity. We see it in the media. We see it in our movies, we see it in our social media, which is, which is a kind of hostile aggresive violent form of masculinity that is part of our culture, is part of our war based culture, et cetera. Gun based, we have, we're the country with the most guns. So we obviously have toxic masculinity. But I, I am arguing a slightly different argument that, that Oftentimes gets covered over because we get absorbed with toxic masculinity. I'm actually talking about taking a very, very human quality and capacity and need, which is the need for deep connection and giving it a gender and a sexuality. And that that the way we do that is not toxic masculinity.  That's called what I'm calling in my new book. It's about, it comes out in in the spring is boy culture. And boy culture. Boy culture with quotation is not a real boy. It's a construction of a boy where basically all things hard are put on top and valued and all things soft are put on the bottom and seen as less important and as kind of lame in many cases.  And in fact, when as humans, as you both alluded to, as humans, we are both hard and soft. we're a yin and a yang. We're we're, I mean, the hard and the soft work together with us. We're both stoic and vulnerable. We want independence and relationships. But if you live in a culture that basically privileges one over the other and demeans the, the soft part, everybody gets into trouble. And boys in particular, cuz we don't even think it's a boy thing.  Um, and so to me it's not toxic masculinity. It really is a boy culture that where we value so-called hard things over soft things. And it's so bizarre to me. I mean, it's a thinking and feeling. Our human capacities, yet we turn thinking into masculinity and feeling into girliness. Um, Susan Stone: you know, I just wanna say, and I, I hear what you're saying, but we are seeing and working with many more gender fluid students. Yeah. Both on females who identify somewhere on the spectrum and males. And, and actually, I'm just wondering, is it possible that all of this good research is gonna go get outdated as students become more gender fluid?  Dr. Niobe Way: Well, you know, it's an interesting question. It's interesting question because I would actually argue that there's and I, and I say this to my students too, who are about a third of my students identify as they is, uh, in my classrooms at NYU. Um, is that actually I think what's happened because we're not dealing with the root of the problem and the gender binary. It's not just a pronoun problem. It's actually a fundamental value problem, uh, where we value the hard over the soft. That by adding another category of a pronoun is, is, I support it because I think you should always disrupt the gender binary. But it's not allowing us to really dig deeper. So what's happening is that the kids who identify as they are actually exploring these gender binaries in a, it seems like in a healthy way. Uh, but what happens is that he and people who identify with he and she, that is those stereotypes, are getting More and more is, solidified and essentialized. So if you're not, ironically in New York City, at least if you're not a, they. And you identify as a she or a he, you become even more of a stereotype of a he or she. That's interesting. Kristina Supler: I hadn't thought about that. The fact that the, they pronoun in some ways is polarizing or further entrenching gender stereotypes for male and female.  Dr. Niobe Way: We have listeners who identify as they. I'm not blaming it on people who identify as they, I'm not doing that. I'm just saying when, when, as a culture, it's a cultural problem we have. It's not an individual problem. It as a culture, when we, when we identify the problem as only a pronoun problem but we don't go deeper, that we actually only value our hard side and not our soft side. Then we do that, right, Kristina? I mean, then we create that problem of reifying the stereotypes by adding an alternative pronoun that doesn't solve the problem. It's the beginning of a pro. It's the beginning of solving it, but it's not, it doesn't get deep enough. We're, we're a very thin culture. We're a very thin culture. We're very, we treat things on the surface without going deeper, and we have to go deeper. Susan Stone: Let's talk about. Being a thin culture  Kristina Supler: actually that, Yeah. So, yeah. And Professor Way in chapter six, and you talk about the label "friend". And Susan and I, in our cases, we always have a component of social media and students with their friend networks and their friends from campus  Susan Stone: and how many friends they have. And at the same time, I mean, I even see this amongst people, everybody's, Oh, I love them. And I once challenges, actually, my best friend I said, You don't really love that person. Yeah. I mean, what does mean to, like, what does it mean to love, What does it mean a friend? Yeah. Kristina Supler: I mean, professor, do you think social mean is diluted the, the term or the label friend? Dr. Niobe Way: Oh, totally. I mean, I could, Oh, this is another topic I could really go off on. I mean, Absolutely. I mean, every, everything, I mean, you know, we continually stay on the thin of it and the thing that's, I want to yes friend means nothing at this point. And and what's interesting is that even in the New York Times, I'm gonna pick on the New York Times cuz it keeps on reifying, these stereotypes. Susan Stone: And I'm a Times reader every morning.  Dr. Niobe Way: No, I know. So am I. So I. So even in the nine times, they had a piece on how many friends are necessary for good mental health. Oh my goodness. If we're now talking about that quantity matters over quality, that's another, that's another hierarchy we have. Really, you're, as an adult, you're asking how many friends are necessary for mental health? How about the quality of your friendships? I mean, you know, the whole point is how many friends is irrelevant. I just wanna tell your listeners. A quantity does not matter. Qual,  Susan Stone: you know what? Professor Way, my father told me growing up, let's do a shout out to Dick Stone , that if you had one or two good friends, you were really lucky. Dr. Niobe Way: Yeah, it's true. It's true. Yeah, it's true. And that, and that's basically what the research shows. I mean, it basically shows if you have at least one person in your life that you can really rely on and really talk to and really be open with, that's you're lucky, as your dad said. But also that that's the key to mental health, that you have to have at least one person in your life that does that. And it could be your grandmother, it could be your younger brother. It doesn't have to be,  Kristina Supler: can it be your spouse or no?  Dr. Niobe Way: It can be your spouse. What's interesting though Kristina that you raised that is that I get that question a lot. The issue is, is that, and I say this to a lot of wives and girlfriends because they know exactly what I'm talking about. If you only have your spouse to talk about your spouse it's not gonna lead very good places. So you really do need somebody besides your spouse. Because the whole idea and, and Women always laugh when I say that and I say, No, no, I'm, I'm being serious.  Susan Stone: No. You know what?  Most, instead of a 50% divorce rate, if every person shared every thought they had in a marriage, I assure you there w we  Kristina Supler: it would be much higher. Susan Stone: It would be a lot higher. I agree. Oh, absolutely. We cannot, as everybody needs a bud that's completely independent  Kristina Supler: outside the home, outside the.  Dr. Niobe Way: Yeah, and in fact, I wanna go push even further in marriage counseling. I'm divorced, by the way, so I I I know about marriage counseling. So in marriage counseling, the, the advice rather than simply being date night, it should be you go, you guys go, both go out and have friendship night with another friend outside of the marriage. Once a week you do that. Susan Stone: I do that. Wow. That's what you do. I  am regularly, I I have always done that. I need my girl time. Yeah. You know. Yeah, I agree. Yeah.  Dr. Niobe Way: And, and I think we, we tend to think, especially, unfortunately, I think women tend to think this more than men, but we tend to think that if you don't wanna always be with us that somehow there's something wrong in the relationship. And the reality is, is that marriages, marriages that seem to last longer are the marriages where you have autonomy and connection, right? You have autonomy to have your own friendships. And then you have connection within the marriage. And with other people, obviously. But the idea is that even your husbands though, even your boyfriends, even your partners need to have that too. And oftentimes what happens is they don't. And then it becomes a problem in the marriage. Because ultimately they don't have, you know, they don't have a nurturing outside of the marriage relationship, which they really need to have for the he for the sake of the marriage. You know, I mean, that's the key part. Susan Stone: Let's circle back to the book. Yeah. I love that advice by the way. I live it. You're, you're, Yeah. But you know, Kristina and I do this podcast and it's really for parents. Mm-hmm. . So based on your book, Deep Secrets and your other book coming out. Yeah. What advice do you have for parents of boys?  Dr. Niobe Way: So ba basically the basic advice is to normalize this desire. That's the basic advice. And it sounds really simple and it sounds like do that. Yeah. But I'll tell you how to do it. So I'm gonna give you a story, uh, that will tell you how easy it is to do it.  So I'm in a classroom, It's ara, it's a boys all boys class. One all boys school. 25 boys was sitting there. They're reading that first opening paragraph in Deep Secrets where Justin the boy in the book says, I love him so much. I can't live without him. I don't know how to describe it. It's something I can't explain, et cetera.  The boys all read it. They start laughing, they start cracking up. These are 12 year old boys. Uh, they start cracking up. I know why they're laughing. But I want them to articulate it. I say, Why are you laughing? They finally, one boy says, The dude sounds gay. And I said, Well, I, I don't know about the kid's sexuality, but the reality is, is that all teenage boys sound like this at some point in their adolescence. All teenage, most teenage boys, I didn't say all I said, Most teenage boys. They're 12. And the boys all were completely silent. And I said, Yeah, that's what teenage boys sound like. Uh, at some point in their adolescents when they're given a safe space to talk openly. And finally, one boy said, For real? And I said, Oh yeah, for real. And then what happened is the entire classroom started wanting to talk about their own friendships. Two boys wanting to share their breakup story with each other, how they broke up, cause they each hurt each other's feelings. All I did, Kristina and Susan, the only thing I did is I literally just said it's normal. Right. They went from, It's not normal. This dude must be gay to, I said, It's normal, all teenage.  Susan Stone: You open the door Doctor Way. You open that door.  Dr. Niobe Way: I open the door. So the the thing I would say, and this sounds like I'm promoting my work and I'm actually not I'm actually promoting a way to parent. Start the conversation by talking about this podcast. Talk, start the conversation about having them listen to a part of the cod Pass or, Or look at a passage in a book or look at a, I like that. Yeah. Right. And then And then saying, and then basically saying, What do you think? Don't, don't lecture to your son. Just say, What do you think? What do you think? What do you think? Do you think that this is, you know, do you connect to this? Do you not connect to this? Have a family conversation. Don't just include your sons. If you have other kids, your husband, et cetera, your partner, whoever. .  And the idea is that you gotta implicitly and explicitly normalize it. That says, This is the feelings I have. This is the feelings your dad has. Or your, someone male in your life, your grandfather, et cetera. And that, how do you feel about it? But normalize it by showing all the boys that talk like that, you know what I mean? I mean, we had it in a book party and when Deep Secrets came out, we had a really cool looking, uh, very handsome kid, 17 year old kid, get in front of the about 200 people and it included a soccer team. And he talked about how Deep Secrets was his story. And you could see this whole team of soccer players with their mouths open. They could not believe that some cool guy would talk about his desire for closeness and how much his friends have hurt his feelings and how hard it is when his friends hurt his feelings.  And they all looked at my son and they said, Is this, the same kind of question? Is this real? And my son said, Yeah, this is, my mom's been doing this forever. This is what boys, you know, always say to her and her team. And then it opened up a conversation on, on the soccer team. I give talks to soccer coaches and soccer coaches figure out ways to have these conversations with their, with their teams. You just gotta normalize it. And again, normalize also friendships, the importance of friendships. I know all you parents who are listening, you're focused more on the, the grades and the test scores and all those things that we worry about in terms of getting our kids into college. The reality is, is that if our kids are healthy social or emotionally, if they're having nurturing relationships, they will do beautifully in life. And it's much more predictive of all sorts of wonderful things, long term outcomes, than it is what college you went to or what SAT score you got, or what grades you got. So the, the idea is to really think about valuing your kids, and I'm saying this to parents, valuing your kids' academic performance and, you know, they're sort of doing the right thing to get into the right places, uh, in their life as much as you do their relationships and their friendships particularly. And really helping them nurture those, those relationships. Kristina Supler: It sounds like at the heart of, of your messaging Professor Way is, is the idea that so much starts at home. I mean, what parents do to welcome their children into feelings and conversations and having opinions and nurturing that. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. It was such a pleasure having you. We appreciate it. I think that you really offered a lot of food for thought in your book, Deep Secrets. Um, I encourage parents to check out the book and think about how to welcome and invite their own children into these conversations to form more meaningful relations relationships. Uh, thank you so much for joining us Professor way. Dr. Niobe Way: Okay. Thank you. You too. Thank you. Wonderful. Kristina and Susan. Bye.

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Dr. Cara Natterson, a pediatrician, consultant, and New York Times bestselling author of puberty and parenting books. They discuss puberty. The conversation includes what changes in puberty professionals have seen over the years, the contributing factors that affect puberty in adolescents and the best methods for helping kids and their parents go through puberty successfully. Links: https://myoomla.com  Show Notes: Show Notes: (03:07)  What goal is the Puberty Podcast trying to achieve?  (05:15) How hormones affect children's behavior as they go through adolescence (06:41) Are kids mentally prepared for puberty once it hits?  (08:28) Why are kids nowadays experiencing puberty earlier than previous generations? (09:07) What are the possible factors that are speeding up the occurrence of puberty in adolescents? (10:36) Has the breast size of the young females of this generation increased compared to that of the former? (12:10) Is the spike of obesity in recent years the main reason behind bigger boobs in adolescent girls? (13:41) How a life-changing product and survival guide on how to get through puberty especially for kids was born (14:33) Should young ladies be wearing sports bras when they hit puberty? (15:05) What is the best type of bra for girls to start with? (16:05) Can underwear offer both comfort and health benefits? (16:30) How Dr. Cara is giving a voice to children going through puberty (18:25) Should the age at which kids go through puberty determine when we should treat them as adults? (19:00) Why are female early bloomers at a higher risk for sexual predation? (21:01) Is it scientifically proven that the pandemic has negatively affected the mental health of students? (22:33) What's the one piece of advice you would give to parents about their children and their mental health? (24:12) How has the adaptation of the body positivity movement impacted children's mental health when it comes to their weight? (24:31) Has the context of eating disorders and body image in boys and girls evolved throughout the years? (26:47) Should parents initiate, “the birds and the bees” talk with their kids even if they don't ask about sex? (28:51) How can parents help their children deal with weight and acne problems without hurting their feelings? (31:22) How have periods transformed over the years? (34:31) Has the rate of ADHD in boys surged recently? (36:58) What does sleep do to our bodies? (38:05) Are sleeping patterns of teenagers different from other age groups? (39:19) What can you do for your child when they can't sleep and begin to overthink? (39:47) Are sleeping aids such as melatonin supplements or gummies safe for teens who have trouble falling asleep? (41:13) How do you know when you should seek professional help for insomnia?  (42:25) What's one piece of advice you would give to kids who have low self-esteem? Transcript: Susan Stone: So today we're gonna talk about something that somehow has become a lost topic, and that is puberty.  Kristina Supler: Just saying that word is making me have these like awkward flashbacks, Susan Stone: but it shouldn't.  You know, I have to say I think of puberty very differently now that my oldest is 25 and I've seen them go through everything. And as a Jewish mama, I think of puberty kids at their bar and Bos mitzvah talking about, No, I am a man. A man. And you see this little guy going, Today, I am a man. And I'm like, No, you're a little pisser. Um, and for those out there, you get it. If you've been to a bar mitzvah and then something magical happens, Puberty. And then the voice drops and the boobs grow. And indeed they do look like little men and women. So  we're gonna talk about puberty today.  Kristina Supler: Well, and this is an issue that's particularly, uh, topical. I pertinent for the Supler household. My daughter would be mortified, but she is, um, in sixth grade. And so lots of conversations are starting to happen in our house. And indeed, A book that we're gonna talk about today has been purchased, so it's fortuitous to have our guests today. Today we are joined by Dr. Cara Natterson. Cara is a pediatrician, consultant, speaker, and New York Times best selling author of multiple books, including The Care and Keeping of You, the American Girl Library Series. And she has sold more than 6 million copies of that book. And indeed, I have purchased that book. Um, additionally, she's recently published Decoding Boys. And in 2020, Carra launched OOMLA, which is basically a a puberty positive company that we're gonna talk more about. Thank you for joining us, Kara.  Dr. Cara Natterson: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here, and yours is not the only horrified child. My two children were just just deeply dismayed by what I did when they were going through puberty.  Susan Stone: That's amazing and we, we welcome you. I wanna start by talking about your podcast, The Puberty Podcast. So Kristina and I are sort of new to the podcasting world and apparently it is a world so newish ish. We're newish. It's been like a year, and we we're very proud of our Real Talk with Susan and Kristina podcast that you're on. Because we think that podcasting is just a wonderful way to reach audiences. So on your podcast, you talk about all things adolescence from body image and behavioral changes to sex and consent. Tell us, Cara, what is the real goal and what are you trying to accomplish with your podcast?  Dr. Cara Natterson: So we, we call it the Puberty podcast. But people think about puberty as being specific to the body changes that are happening, and that's the very narrow definition of puberty. It's the path through sexual maturity. The reason we call it the Puberty Podcast and talk about all these other adjacent topics as well, is that the same hormones that make your boobs grow and that make your shoulders broad and that make you hairy, and that make you smell all of those same hormones also impact your moods and your feelings, and therefore your friendships and therefore your family dynamics. And so there are all these downstream. Issues that used to be called adolescence, and those two buckets were really separate. Like there was puberty, which was your body, and there was adolescence, which was everything else. But what has become really clear is that those two things are actually quite synonymous. The Venn diagram overlap of those two topics is massive. And so we like to talk about all of it. Because it is the one stage of life that regardless of your gender, regardless of your background, regardless of where on the globe you are growing up, you will go through puberty. This is a universal rite of passage, and it's a much longer rite of passage than it used. Susan Stone: You know,  I don't know if you will agree with this statement, but when Kristina and I first became law Partners, her children were just, I think the preschool age and a little older. Kristina Supler: Yeah, that's about right. Susan Stone: And I remember saying to her, At that time, you are in your golden years. Mm-hmm. ? Mm-hmm. . I think post potty training and before puberty is just the sweetest time when a parent is with a child. Why do kids become little monsters once they hit puberty?  It's, And do you agree with me?  Dr. Cara Natterson: It's such a good question. I do agree with you that in that time between when they learn to walk and talk and when their, their sex hormones, estrogen and, and testosterone in particular, start to surge, the, the most common question out of their mouth is, you know, do you wanna know how much I love you? I mean, it's wrote, I can't beat it. Right. You really can't beat it. So, but what happens is, and it's by the way, it used to happen at 10 or 11, and now it's happening at eight on average for girls, and between nine and 10 on average for boys. Is that the, the sex hormones are starting to get ramped up in the body. The ovaries produce estrogen in the female body. The testicles produce testosterone in the male body, and those hormones don't just circulate below the neck. Those hormones circulate up in the brain and they impact the way kids feel. And we all know this. Every single person has felt this. We felt the highs and the lows of hormone surges. This is new to kids. They don't know how to manage it. Their brains are getting used to it, and that's what you are seeing and feeling when kids hit their tween and teen years. Susan Stone: I have a question.  Dr. Cara Natterson: Sure. Susan Stone: Now that it's puberty is happening so young a. Are they mentally ready for this ?  Dr. Cara Natterson: None of us are mentally ready for this. They are not. And this is a humongous piece of this puzzle. It really, um, it shouldn't matter when they enter puberty in so far as. It should just be a natural process in life. And it happens when it happens. And by the way, the range is very broad. So there are of course kids who start earlier and kids who start later, but it shouldn't matter. The problem is we live in a world in a context where it really does matter. So think about it this way. Um, the average age for cell phone ownership in this country is 10. It's 10. Okay? Now I've just told you more than half of all kids have either estrogen or testosterone coursing through their bodies by the time they're 10. So now you're gonna combine a brain that's pretty immature with these hormones that are pretty potent and devices, and no, the answer to your question is they're not ready. The brain is not going to be able to make consistently smart consequential decisions until it's close to 30. That's two more decades, so the puberty is happening earlier. It is not happening faster, and brain development is not happening faster. It just means we have to parent them a little bit differently.  Kristina Supler: So you've touched on something that Susan and I in preparation for today, Cara, what we were sort of wrestling with and talking through is that notion or question of, it seems like our children today are going through puberty earlier, at least than it in my tween years. And, and Susan indicated the same and, and you've acknowledged that. Why though? Why is that happening?  Dr. Cara Natterson: That's the question. The most common question I get, most common question I get. The really unfortunate answer is I don't know. I, I do know, and I work with a number of specialists. One of my favorite people, um, who is truly an expert on this subject is a woman named Louise Greenspan. She wrote a phenomenal book called The New Puberty. It came out in 2014, but it's just as relevant today as when it came out, and it answered that question. She is a researcher based in Northern California. She runs a lot of the studies that make headlines in the papers about when kids are going through puberty and why, and here's what she says. She says, it's everything we put into and onto our bodies. It's the food we eat. It's the liquids we drink. It's the cosmetics we're putting onto our bodies. It is the air we breathe and we just don't know the lowest common denominator. We don't know what we can take out of those things in order to fix the situation. Louise on. We did a podcast with her. Um, Recently, relatively recently, where she talked a little bit about antibiotics, and this is one, people talk about endocrine disrupting hormones all the time, but they don't talk about antibiotics. And Louise connected the dots and helped to explain why antibiotics that are given to poultry and to cows milk. Milk are directly impacting the way that these hormones work. And I can't do it justice here, but she has a really elegant description of it.  Susan Stone: So, I'm gonna ask you a question that's not so elegant. Hmm,  Dr. Cara Natterson: Go for it. Susan Stone: Can I ask you? Yeah. Okay. My readers are gonna be horrified and Kristina, feel free to kick me, but is it my imagination, but are boobs bigger? It's a really fair question, ,  Kristina Supler: and I wonder if there's a, a, a correlation to maybe childhood obesity as well. I, I don't know,  Susan Stone: Cara, So give us the answer.  Dr. Cara Natterson: Great question.  Susan Stone: I mean, of course it didn't help me out. I know. I'm sharing. I'm oversharing, guys. .  Dr. Cara Natterson: I could overshare here too. But you know, my daughter is so tired of me oversharing that I'm gonna, I'm gonna just answer the questions I could, but I won't. Exactly. Um, I have learned my lesson over time. Um, so the, the answer is anecdotally, I agree with you. Um, there is no data that shows it, but I definitely see what you see. Um, and there are probably a couple of contributing factors, and one is exactly what Kristina just pointed to, which is that, um, the average body weight in this country has gone up and up and up. Um, so about 20% of all tweens and teens are overweight or obese. Uh, we are looking at 33, 34% of all adults in this country who are obese. If you add overweight adults, we get to 74, 75% of the entire population. Breasts are made of water and fat tissue, and then duct systems. And so yes, when we accumulate extra body fat, that is one of the parts of the body where the body fat accumulates. But I actually think there's probably something else going on as well. And just go with me here. I'm gonna give you like 10 seconds of science. Sure.  Susan Stone: I thought it was a dumb question and I thought I was imagining it. Literally, my daughter goes to an all-girl school and look, my oldest is 25, so I'm talking about a change from a a couple years and I was looking and I went, What is going on here?  Dr. Cara Natterson: No, and, and here's one really interesting way of thinking about it. I don't know that this is scientifically what's going on, but the more fat cells we have in the body, the more ability the body has to convert hormones from one form into another. Because fat cells do what's called peripheral conversion. They actually change hormones from one form to another. So as body weights have gone up, hor, different levels of hormones have gone up in the body as a function of the fat cells being present. And I do think that's probably a contributor, although I don't know, and I'm not a researcher in this field, but I think it's very real. The other thing anecdotally that I've seen change, and again, no studies here, but in the world of pediatrics, definitely much more acne. Oh, I'm at too, right? And the acne is much more intense. Like it's not a few pimples, it's scarring. Full-face, full back, full chest. Same drivers here. Same drivers. Kristina Supler: Hormones. Powerful stuff. Yep. Uh, so I'd love to switch gears and talk about the business you launched OOMLA, which aims to make puberty comfortable, and you have all sorts of content for teens and tweens, and then also parents. Tell us about the mission of OOMLA and why you decided to launch that endeavor when it it seems like you have so much other stuff going on as well.  Dr. Cara Natterson: Yeah, I have the thing or two. So when I was writing the American girl books, I was traveling all over the country and it was a, an unbelievable opportunity to speak with parents and kids everywhere. And what became very clear to me was that there's lots of information about how to get through puberty aimed at adults only. Very little aimed at kids and there is no product solution.  So boobs. Perfect example. Everyone who has two X chromosomes and goes through a typical puberty will get breasts. But no one seemed to care that there was an on ramp of consumers who needed a bra that felt good and comfortable and fit them well.  Susan Stone: Don't they wear their sports bras? Dr. Cara Natterson: I have an issue with that because when they wear their sports bras, their sports bras bind them so tightly. And again, I don't have science to back this up. I just have scientific reasoning. Any tissue that's growing against resistance is going to grow differently. So breast tissue that's growing against sports bra resistance all day, every day. I think that is breast tissue that is more likely to get cystic or dense.  That I think is going to create a type out that's, Susan Stone: that's interesting. Dr. Cara Natterson: There's just no question. The other is the chafing, the irritation, and the smell of a sports bra. So what we did is I, I started a product. I said, I gotta fix the bra. That's the first thing we have to fix.  And so we created the OOMBra and the OOMbra is super soft, cotton reversible. So you can wear it on either side. And there's a cute print. Truly cute print, not ugly, cute print. I was gonna say two. You got it. And then so you can flip it and sign out. But there's a middle panel that does I'd call it like a half measure of a sports bra.  It doesn't bind you tight. It's almost like a piece of paper. It's got no stretch. So it hugs you but doesn't bind you, which to me feels safer. And why does it feel safer? Because when you take off your OOMbra at the end of the day, you don't exhale. You don't feel better. Which is the sign that you're not being bound too tight.  So that's the first thing we fix. Then we launch shorts that are the opposite of underpants. They have low crotch, wide legs, and they air you out because you're in sweaty underpants all day long. And that's where smells come from and that's where yeast growth comes from. And all this stuffs right. You got it. So we did that. Oh my gosh. The best is yet to come. We have socks coming this winter that do not smell.  Kristina Supler: Whoa. That's cool.  Dr. Cara Natterson: I, I know. It's amazing. So that's the product line. We love, love, love what we do on the product side. More important than that is the content side. So we do have a lot of content aimed at adults. But the content that I care the most about is called our puberty portal. And it is articles about puberty written by and for tweens and teens. That's amazing. It is awesome. It is a, a, an 18 year old is telling a 12 year old how it feels to go through a certain stage of life. And I'm reading everything. So it's all medically accurate. But it's through the lens of someone who just went through it. And it is to me that's, That's the gold. That's the gold.  Susan Stone: So Kristina and I represent students when they have issues being accused either in the criminal justice system or at their school with basically violations of a Title IX policy, sexual harassment, sexual assault. And typically our work with younger kids is to secure accommodations and better IEPs, individual education plans.  And I'm hearing you talk about puberty happening earlier and boobs getting bigger, hygiene issues and hygiene issues, but I, I, I wanna say just because your child is maturing physically more and going through puberty, Wouldn't you say that doesn't mean necessarily that they are advancing sexually? And that it's still okay to treat them in an age appropriate way that a 10 year old is still a 10 year old. So just because they may look like a 16 year old looked maybe when I went to high school, that they're still young. I, I just feel like we're trying to make them older too quickly.  Dr. Cara Natterson: I think that needs to be said in bold with highlighter and exclamation points. It is not just, It's just not just, okay. It's critical that we let kids be kids. Yes, we must treat them the age they are not the age they look. And by the way, this goes for kids who are late to puberty as well, who look young. And are treated younger than they actually are, um, because they have issues around that. But in the group that you're discussing, you know, these are kids who are at high risk. We know that girls who go through puberty early are at higher risk for sexual predation. We know that. Why? Because they present as older and they find themselves in situations that their brain cannot handle. The world has to treat them like kids. The world needs to protect them like kids. It makes me so, so sad when I see people treat kids as if they're mini adults and I know exactly what's going on in their brain. Their brain can't handle that kind of thinking at 25. Their brain can't handle that kind of thinking. I  Susan Stone: What's the rush? I know that there's a lot of talk. I, I've heard other parents talk, especially as you know, my children were in early high school about boyfriends. You know, I never had that talk with my children. I really worked very hard to make my kids stay as young for as long as possible while having conversations about sex education. You can do both at the same time.  Kristina Supler: Well, and I think, Susan, to your point though, even more, I think the, the sentiment you're expressing is even more important in today's time when our children at and adults, all of us are constantly bombarded by social media and advertising and all of this material that is really encouraging it's kids to grow up faster.  And you know, I think that students are now living through, um, The impact of Covid and the constant bombardment of social media. And it really presents a lot of challenges. I know, uh, last year the surgeon General issued an advisory on mental health. And I'm just wondering, Cara, as a pediatrician, have you noticed a direct correlation between the pandemic and mental health among students?  Dr. Cara Natterson: Everything that you've read about in the paper, everything that you've heard about in terms of the mental health emergency is true. And in some regard, this sometimes an understatement. The mental health impact of Covid was so massive. Um, I live in Los Angeles. Our schools were shut for 16 months. Imagine. Right that, And listen, I, as a physician, I understood, I understood how the decisions were being made to prioritize physical, biological safety, but the mental health implications are so massive. We're so massive.  Susan Stone: We're still suffering.  Dr. Cara Natterson: You bet. And they're massive everywhere. By the way, it doesn't matter if you were here where everything was shut, or if you were in places where school reopened six weeks, eight weeks into the pandemic. It really actually, it really didn't matter. The mental health crisis in this country is so phenomenally large. So much so that I think it's hard for a lot of parents to even begin to read about it and think about it. It's overwhelming. It's scary.  When we talk about kids who have suicidal ideation, it's terrifying. When we talk about kids who are cutting themselves or who are restricting their eating. This is heavy, big stuff.  And, um, I, this summer I wrote a book with my, um, partner at OOMLA. Um, we wrote a book that's called Modern Puberty, How it's Changed and How to Talk about It. Susan Stone: Is the book out yet? Dr. Cara Natterson: It comes out in 2023.   What chapter did we wait to write until last? Mental health. Because even though we work in this field, it's a lot for anyone to think through and to manage, but you have to, And so the one piece of advice I have for all parents is find your team of supporters. So that might be other parents, but it's a school official, an administrator or a counselor at school who can help your kid. A physician, whether it's a pediatrician, a family healthcare provider who can help your kid. A therapist or a counselor who can help your kid. A mentor, a coach, an inspiration who can help your kid. These are all people who have eyes on your kid and can tell you in different context how they're doing. This is your team and, and it's important to lean into the team.  Susan Stone: Speaking about mental health issues and I, Kristina, you brought up seeing, you know, the rise in body weight, part of me thinks that this is not a bad thing and I'm going to just express why. I recall when I went to college and still to this day, knowing a lot of people with very serious eating disorders, lots of anorexia. And I'm just wondering, I, I think I would rather see a little extra, you know, love on a child versus starvation or bulimia.  Would you agree that this change in po body positivity and even if it means that our kids are a little bit and they weigh more or more than their BMI should be, it's, it's in balance a good thing. Dr. Cara Natterson: So I'm gonna reframe it a little and I'm gonna say a couple of different things. The first is the body positivity movement is wonderful. I love it. And it is a, yeah, it's a very important piece to this puzzle. But when we talk about disordered eating, those of us who are raised in the eighties and early nineties, think about  Susan Stone: guilty ,  Dr. Cara Natterson: right? Think about weight loss and being too thin. And actually the eating disorder world encompasses people of all different weights and shapes and sizes. There are people who are restricting. There are people who are purging through exercise, or they're taking laxatives. Or they're vomiting. Those are people who are trying to lose weight. But especially among boys, they're totally missed because they're not trying to lose weight, they're trying to bulk up. They actually want more muscle. They don't wanna be the thin kid, and so often you get disordered behaviors on the other end of the spectrum. And this is an important piece to recognize, is that our old school, thinking of what disordered eating looks like is very narrow. And very limited. And there are people who need help and want help across the spectrum. So while I think Bos body positivity is wonderful, um, and while I also think that the, the broadening of female body ideals has been really positive, we're not there yet. But it's not just stick thin, that's the ideal anymore. Curvy is ideal. Strong and muscular is ideal. The the, the genetic male there's been no evolution for them in terms of body ideals. There's been no moving of the needle. The same body ideal that existed in the sixties and seventies exists today. The only difference is you're allowed to shave your head now, but the six pack abs and the broad shoulders and you know, you go kind of walk down all the features of a GI Joe doll, that's still the male body ideal. And so we have a long way to go in order to honor half of the population and recognize their struggles in any number of directions.  Kristina Supler: I'd like to sort of transition to a new topic, sex education. And in, in your book, Decoding Boys, you mention that, uh, waiting for your child to ask questions about sex ed is often a great way to gauge where the child is at mentally. But what happens if your child just, just never asks? Do you feel that parents should open the conversation up on their own, or what are your thoughts for parents who are facing that issue?  Dr. Cara Natterson: I hope it was clear in Decoding Boys, for sure in Modern Puberty, we have pages and pages and pages about when you need to talk about sex with your kids. It's sooner than you think. Um, most of your kids are not coming to you when they need the information. You do need to start opening those lines of communication before they prompt you with the question. So if, if an eight year old comes to you and asks you questions, Answer the questions that are being asked. But if a 10 or 11 year old has not come to you, well then let's contextualize it. The average age for first porn viewing in this country, if you are male, is between 11 and 13. So the adults in those kids' lives want to sex educate their kids before their kids are sex educated by strangers on a screen. So I usually use 10 or 11 as my cutoff for if they haven't come to you, you do need to start going to them and opening the lines of communication because of what's on their screens. If they're the youngest of five. You're gonna go to them sooner, right? If they're kids who have lots of older kid influences, you're gonna go to them sooner. The question is as much, how do you go to them as when do you go to them? And so, you know, there are some strategies that you can use. Um, and there's a lot of language that you can use around that. But opening up the conversation is critical. Susan Stone: I like what you're saying about opening up the conversation and I, I wanna circle back to, and I know we're flip flopping guys, but you're making us think. And sometimes the brain processes. Can we go back to the, when you see a child having a lot of acne or maybe being a little too heavy. You don't wanna shame them. But you do want them to keep their skin clean or eat healthy. What's the balance and what's the advice you would give parents?  Dr. Cara Natterson: So my partner, Vanessa and I talk about how often we mess this up on our podcast. Every week we talk about how parents and the adults who are helping to raise kids will screw up this conversation time and time and time again. And our advice is, however, you can bring something up in a non shaming, non-judgemental way, try it. But if it falls flat or if it lands poorly, Take the do-over. So a good example is with acne, um, I've messed this up 12 different times in my own house with my own kids. There are ways to show your kids how to wash their face. Ask them if they need new products. Suggest that they not pop pimples. Explain why. At the end of the day, some of it's gonna land and some of it's not. Sometimes you're gonna choose the wrong time or the wrong tone, and your child's gonna let you know. and they're gonna be very clear with you. They're either gonna tell you or they're gonna walk out of the room and shut the conversation down. So it's really appropriate to circle back with them, not immediately, but a little bit later and say, I think I really messed that one up. My goal is to just talk to you about hygiene and how to take care of your skin. I'm here to answer any questions and then you try again another day with another round of, would you like this cleanser or another round of, Are you, you know, in my house the other day it was, Hey, are you using a clean towel? When you wipe your face at the end of the day, you wash your face.  Kristina Supler: Oh, sure. Yes, yes, yes.  Dr. Cara Natterson: Right. That was my attempt in and it was not shut down entirely , but where it doesn't matter if you do this for a living or not, these are hard conversations. Just no shame, no judgment.  Kristina Supler: One other question about puberty and development, um, I'm wondering, With everything you've spoken a lot about, uh, hormones and bodies being impacted by what we eat and what we put on our skin and so on and so forth. I'm wondering also, kind of in line with Susan's question are, are our breasts getting bigger now among adolescents, females? What about periods are, are periods becoming more painful, uh, taking place for a longer period of time? What can you say about that? Heavier, heavier, heavier flow?  Dr. Cara Natterson: So, um, periods are, are one topic that we have a lot of data on. Um, one of the reasons we have a lot of data on is they're measurable. You can see them, people talk about them these days. Think about 20 years ago, no one ever talked about period. Now, I mean, teenagers just talk, talk, talk, talk, talk about their period to the point where it's almost astounding even to me. Um, but they're measurable. And also a lot of people are on these period apps, right? Where they're tracking their periods and the apps are collecting that we know about those apps, right. And those apps, I would imagine the two lawyers on the other end of the microphone have the same feelings that the doctor has, which is, they're great, but the privacy issues are huge on these apps. So they're pros and cons right to the, to the data collection there. And  Susan Stone: they're a poor form of birth control.  Dr. Cara Natterson: Oh, they are not, Yes, they are not in our approved list of birth control. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Um, so, but, but, um, what do we know about periods? We know this is the most amazing fact about periods. We know that puberty is beginning on average two years earlier for a genetic female. But periods aren't happening any earlier at all. They have remained basically stable for the last 60 years. Um, maybe you can argue they've moved up by a month or two, but the gap in breast development has shifted by two years. So what does that tell you? That tells you? Kristina Supler: It's bizarre.  Dr. Cara Natterson: It's bizarre. And what it tells you is puberty is stretching like taffy. It is starting earlier, but it is happening slower, not faster. And this middle marker, people used to think of it as either the beginning of puberty or the end of puberty. It is neither. Getting your first period is a middle marker. This middle marker hasn't changed. As we get more and more data about length of period and heaviness of flow and all that, we can answer questions more about, um, how hormone shifts are impacting that. But right now, um, remember that the reporters who are telling us how heavy their periods are are 12 and 13 and 14, and they only have themselves to compare to mm-hmm. when it's, is this a heavy period, how do they know? Right. What are they measuring against? And so right now the data looks like the periods themselves have really not changed very much at all. Susan Stone: Can we talk about boys a little bit? Yeah. Yeah. So I, this is again, and, and right now I'm feeling pretty good about my observations, but I'm observing that almost every boy, Kristina, or young man or college age student has adhd. I mean, I don't think I've met anybody recently who does not have ADHD or some form of ADD. Is that just who we see in our, I mean, you wouldn't know in our office, but is there a rise in ADD or ADHD in boys, or is it just we're better at identifying it? Or is it the pandemic that's made it worse? What's going on with ADD in boys?  Dr. Cara Natterson: There's a very well-documented rise in medication for H ADHD in both genders over the past two or three decades. Some people believe it's accurate diagnosis and we're better at picking kids up. Some people believe it's over diagnosis, and it's an over call because if any of us was on a stimulant every single day, we would do better. We would focus more, we would, I mean, I'm on a stimulant every day. It's called caffeine. I do a cup of coffee and I lock in and feel like I can get my work done. That is, that, that is what caffeine does. It is a stimulant. So, um, there's a whole world of people who debate is. Is this rise and what you are seeing real or not real? I would have to guess that the community, the population you are dealing with are kids who are risk takers more impulsive. That's a big issue. Right, and And what is one of the diagnostic criteria of ADHD? Impulsivity. You don't have to be impulsive to have the diagnosis, but boy are you likely to have the diagnosis if you're highly impulsive. So I think probably in your population you have a skewed group. But that being said, I think we see much more impulsivity and hyperactivity and attentional issues now than we ever saw before. Kristina Supler: I'm wondering also if. The impact of sleep on teens and tweens and with phones and social media, and you name it. Let's face it, at least in my house, I mean, people are staying up much later than I'd like. And I know Susan, you've said that as well.  Susan Stone: Well, I have to chime in. I am a terrible, terrible sleeper. I always was. Post-menopause it's much worse. And. My kids are very bad sleepers. So the question is, are you seeing that everybody's getting worse sleep? And how is that different for those in puberty? And when you have a kid, and, and I know I'm hearing it from my youngest saying I can't sleep. Is it okay to give melatonin? Is it okay to maybe give NyQuil? I mean, or should you just say, tough it out? Because when I say tough it out, she wakes up and she's exhausted.  Dr. Cara Natterson: Mm. Yeah. Okay. We have a much deeper appreciation for the need for sleep today than we've ever had before. And we understand that sleep does a number of things to the body, but the top four that I always share with kids when I'm teaching in the classroom are that number one, sleep resets your mood. Okay? We all know that. Number two. It resets your metabolism because it impacts the way different metabolic hormones shift in your body. So it changes the way you feel hunger, and it changes the way you store your calories, either as fat or you burn through them. Number three, it files away memory. So if you cram for a test all night long, you're not gonna do as well as if you go to bed and get a good night's sleep because you need to sleep to store the memory. And the fourth, this is the big selling point for kids, is that you grow when you sleep. Not when you lay down, not at night when you sleep. You  Susan Stone: know, it's, That doesn't Interesting. You grow when you sleep. Yeah. That's why I remember my mother always saying to me, I would say My leg hurts. She'd say, Oh, it's growing pain,  Dr. Cara Natterson: growing pains. Yep. And so here's the thing about sleep, though, it doesn't come easily to everyone, um, especially teenagers whose melatonin level. So melatonin is a natural hormone that your brain produces to tell your body it's time for sleep. And most people have a melatonin surge that happens sometime between eight and 10:00 PM and then they get tired and then they fall asleep an hour or two later. The three. But teenagers, Yeah, I mean, well, teenage brains, right? They do not have melatonin surges at 8 pm. Let me, Sorry. They do not have melatonin searches at 8:00 PM They have melatonin searches closer to 11:00 PM or midnight and said to me, What?  That makes sense though, Why they wanna stay up?  I,  Kristina Supler: Yes. So I'm like dying to go to bed, but  Dr. Cara Natterson: me too. And so they may get into bed at 10 o'clock at night and want to do the right thing and get sleep and lay there and not be able to fall asleep. The worst. The other thing is there are some kids, and I have one of these kids who. They lay down in bed and what happens? They start processing the day. Mm-hmm. And they cannot turn their brain off. And you know, Susan, that may be you. You know, that may be one of the things that keeps you up. It is. Right?  Susan Stone: And what do we do?  Dr. Cara Natterson: Okay. Meditation. Learning how meditation does not turn your brain off. Meditation teaches you how to quiet certain parts of your brain so that you can accomplish things like sleep. I cannot tell you how many kids I know who have started listening to meditation apps and started to learn how to turn down the volume of their brain and it changes their sleep.  Kristina Supler: How do you feel though about melatonin supplements or gummies or any of that? Yeah.  Dr. Cara Natterson: You know, I mean, I think when used appropriately, they're fine. I think anyone can become dependent upon anything. The melatonin dependence issue is really more, um, psychological. Mm-hmm. , the physiological. Um, it's hard to give someone enough melatonin every single day that they become physically dependent upon it. What happens is if you take melatonin, you just replace what your brain normally makes and you're trying to game the system. So you're trying to shift the time so you fall asleep at the right time, but eventually your brain should take over and just start making it at that correct time. So, um, to me it's more like a, there's a more of a placebo effect than anything else where I'm gonna take my melatonin, okay, mentally, now I'm gonna start getting tired. And your body then goes down through this ritual of getting tired. Not to say that the melatonin isn't being absorbed and doesn't work, but there's a huge psychological component. So it would be really empowering to our kids and frankly to us to not be dependent upon taking something in order to fall asleep and instead use it when needed and then be able to transition off. Susan Stone: What do you say though about the 3:00 AM or the 2:30 AM wake up? That's not, I understand that's not to get to sleep, but what do you do when you wake up in the middle of the night? I'm at the point where, Tell my child is get up and walk around. Don't fight it. Yeah. Cause sometimes when you sit there and you get tense in your bed, I gotta fall asleep outta sleep. You're making it worse.  Dr. Cara Natterson: Just get a hundred percent. And I would say for anyone of any eight who wakes up in the middle of the night and cannot fall back asleep, that is a person who should absolutely consult with someone who works in the field of sleep to get some real strategies for how to handle it. Because there is nothing worse than the anxiety that hangs over you when you're laying awake thinking, Oh my God, tomorrow, right? I have a test, I have a this, I have a that, and, and you're just dooming yourself. So definitely some professional help.  Susan Stone: Cara, I just I'm so blown away. Not just that you are such an accomplished author, but you're an entrepreneur and you are a podcast, and you are a doctor, and for someone who works with kids of all ages, You are so accomplished. What's a piece of advice you would have for that kid who's in puberty with, as my kids call it, LSE, low self-esteem? What would you say so they could become a future doctor or entrepreneur or a podcaster like you?  Dr. Cara Natterson: Well, this is what we tell kids all the time, and thank you for those kind words. Um, we say to kids that it's completely unfair of us adults to expect you to feel great about everything that's happening to your life and to your body, and to your friend groups. When you have no idea what is gonna happen to your life or your body or your friend groups, and that we recognize as adults who have been through it that the path doesn't have a super clear endpoint, and that feels overwhelming, but we're here to help you out and to support you through it. I, I think if we tell kids to not feel perfect, but instead to just share how they feel. It works a lot better for us and for them. Because the expectations shouldn't be that a 10 year old who doesn't know how tall they're gonna be, has no idea how curvy they're gonna be. Has no idea how many zits they're gonna get, doesn't know what their bra size is gonna be, has no idea what their future holds for us to say everything's gonna be fine and gonna work out.  It's not helpful to them and it's not helpful to us. So for us to honor that in them and just say to them, Hey, we're here, and you just, It's effort in. It's effort in and communication out, that's what counts. I think those are the kids that really thrive.  Kristina Supler: That's great advice for kids and adults, frankly. So thank you. I, I really like ending on that note. Uh, Cara Natterson,, thank you so much for joining us today. Really, this was a treat. We covered a ton of topics, but I, I think that was so cool in that we've given our listeners so much food for thought on various different teen and tween issues. So thanks  Susan Stone: for bouncing with us,  Dr. Cara Natterson: the bouncers. I loved it. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate.  

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Dr. Heath Hightower,  the Senior Director of Suicide Grief Support Services at Samaritans in Boston.  They discuss suicide among college students. The conversation includes how to prevent suicide, what to do when you suspect a loved one of being suicidal, and how to cope with the aftermath. Links Mentioned In the Show: Suicide Grief Support Services at Samaritans in Boston Show Notes: (03:02) An unfair expectation from parents about their children and suicide (06:15) A few common warning signs that your child maybe suicidal  (07:59) How parents, coaches, teachers, and peers should address students exhibiting symptoms of being suicidal (10:00) How often are young adults honest about their suicidal thoughts? (12:25) Can you just bring your child to a mental health professional to confirm if they're suicidal? (13:35) Are mental health screenings enough to know if your child is suicidal? (15:06) What is the difference between mental health screenings and assessments?  (16:57) When should a student be screened for suicidality by a clinical professional? (17:21) Is there a relationship between suicide and substance abuse in young adults? (19:28) How to know if your child is just experiencing homesickness in college or needs to come back home? (23:22) How can parents let their college-age children know they're worried about them, yet respect their independence? (25:40) How Netflix can help initiate a conversation with your child about their suicidal symptoms.  (27:25) When do your children understand the concept of death and its permanence? (30:07) What can students do to help one another if a friend or a fellow student on campus takes their own life? Transcript: Susan Stone: So today, Kristina, we're going to address something that we've been thinking about and talking about a lot because mental health is always a component of our podcast and since the pandemic, it's really shed a light on. Mental health issues that we've addressed from a number, number of angles, but we really haven't talked about suicide. So today's guest, we're gonna talk about suicide prevention, screening, assessment, intervention, and postvention.  Kristina Supler: This is a, a topic that's. Well, September marked National Suicide Prevention Awareness Month. This episode unfortunately won't be released in September, but it's a really important discussion that's relevant year round. And so we wanted to invite today's guests to examine this topic with us suicide's, the second leading cause of death for college students.  Susan Stone: And, and again, it, it's a topic that sadly, that has affected and impacted our. And although we are not mental health professionals, we make a lot of referrals. And sadly, we have dealt with the issue in some of our cases. Kristina Supler: So today we are pleased to be joined by Dr. Heath Hightower, who is the Senior Director of Suicide Grief Support Services at Samaritans in Boston. Susan Stone: And just interrupt. He's also recently became a doctor, so congratulations, Heath , and. Just as recently, my brother-in-law. Well, there you go. There you go.  So I thought I'd add that in. Kristina Supler: Well, let me keep bragging. Dr. Hightower holds a doctorate in counseling and psychology and a master's degree in social work. His clinical work has also included outpatient substance abuse counseling. Private, independent high school counseling and community college counseling,  basically  our population. That's right. Dr. Hightower's research and scholarly writing has focused on suicide in the black and African American communities and reframing the SU suicide as a social justice issue.  Susan Stone: Welcome,  Heath Hightower: Welcome to you as well. Thank you so much for having me today.  Susan Stone: We're really pleased to have someone who is so knowledgeable and works with this population. The number one question I think for every parent is, what are the signs? And in particular, if you're a parent, how do you separate depression, anxiety from thinking that it's actually a suicide risk?  Heath Hightower: Yeah, so you're asking a really important question, Susan, and it doesn't have a very simple answer, unfortunately. So one of the things that I think is important for parents to hear, Especially a parents who are parents in the United States is that you are all in what I like to call the American Parent Trap, which really means that there is this cultural expectation that you are going to be the expert in every aspect of your child's life, and therefore should have some sort of special almost clairvoyant ability to predict when your child is going to be thinking about suicide, maybe planning a suicide and maybe attempting suicide.  And I think that that trap sets a really unrealistic expectation around suicide screening and assessment, especially when moms and dads are trying to do that. And they're not trained professionals to do that. So I wanna just start off by saying to moms and dads out there, There are unrealistic expectations on you about your ability to predict your child's suicide. The other, I think, cultural piece that we have to also understand is that suicide is preventable, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all suicides can be prevented. And so, I think it's important to say that out loud because it is possible for anybody to do or say all of the technically right things and still have an outcome that is a death by suicide. So that doesn't mean we're power. That's pill  Kristina Supler: to swallow. Yeah, that's a hard truth, but I think an important truth. Heath Hightower: Well, this is called Real Talk for a reason.  Kristina Supler: That's right. That's right.  Heath Hightower: So let's talk really about this then. So given that reality, there still are things that we can know, and when we know them, we can respond in a particular way. So the challenge though is that a lot of the indicators, the, the suicide risk factors and warning signs can also be indicators and warning signs of other things, right? Unless your child comes to you, And says, Mom, dad, foster, ma, mom, foster dad, grandma, whoever is serving in that parental role, I am thinking about dying by suicide and here's how I'm gonna do it and here's when I'm gonna do it. If, if a child doesn't do that, anything short of that is going to require you to do some follow up and to, to notice some things that are going on in your child's life and then follow up by asking about that. So let me just give you a concrete example. I was gonna  Susan Stone: say, what do you wanna know?  Kristina Supler: What are the specifics that maybe parents should be on the lookout for?  Heath Hightower: Yeah. Or, yeah. So yeah, so a lot of the warning signs are expressing a desire to die. Certainly if your child is deleting their social media accounts, if they are getting into fights with people that they don't. Usually get into fights with anger and rage at people that they don't usually get rageful at. So it's one thing for them to be pissed off at you. It's another th thing for them to be pissed off at grandma and to call her all sorts of obscene names. Right? That's that's really different. I think also if we start seeing our kids engaging in high risk behaviors like increased substance use, driving the car really fast, engaging in high risk sexual activities, All of that impulsivity stuff. If we see an increase in their usual impulsive behaviors, which again can be relatively typical for adolescents and young adults, if we start seeing that in greater proportions, those are the warning signs that moms and dads and coaches, and administrators and teachers really should be on the lookout for. Pull the student aside and have a conversation.  Susan Stone: Should peers just confront it head on? I mean, that would be my M.O. Are you thinking about this? I've noticed.  Heath Hightower: Yeah, so I think you're raising a really good point about addressing it head on. I think the, the question isn't whether you should directly, uh, confront it head on. It's really how you do it. So I think the approach is important. I think if you barge into little Johnny or little Susie's room and say, Hey, what the hell's going on? Are you thinking about dying by suicide? I think you're gonna get a pretty defensive answer, which is no, not at all. Right? But if on the other hand, you knock on little Johnny and Susie's door, you ask for permission to come in and you say, Little Johnny or Susie, here's what I've noticed. Can you help me understand what's going on? And then really, really listen. Right? Without responding, hear them out fully and then express what your concern might be. Right? So if your concern is, gosh, I've noticed you're not sleeping, I noticed that, you know, you're not talking to your friends, you, you've skipped gymnastics, or you've skipped track practice. Can you help me? Can you help me understand what's, what's going on? And. If little and Johnny say, Well, here's what's going on. Depending on what's actually going on, that then should guide mom and dad's next reaction or response. Kristina Supler: So that's, that's really helpful to hear. And it sounds like at the heart of it, an essential thing for parents or loved ones to do is listen really carefully. But my question for you is this, you mentioned, uh, when we first started talking short of. The child, the teen, the college student coming out and saying, You know, I'm, I'm contemplating. dying, or even in the conversation along the lines of what you recommended. Now my question is this, how, how often are young adults actually honest and forthright about what their thoughts are? Susan Stone: You took the question. I I thought of it at the same time. I mean, I, I would assume if someone's planning this, don't they lie and wanna cover it up that it's what I was thinking,  Kristina Supler: Like how often do young adults actually come right out and say, Here's, here's what I'm thinking.  Heath Hightower: Yeah, so I think, so in my experience, if you ask someone directly and their response is, No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Then I think the follow up question is, Gosh, I'm, I'm hearing the No, no, no, no, no. And yet I'm seeing these signs. Can you help me, help me understand the disconnect between the, No, no, no, no, no, no, no. and what I'm seeing.  And so again, this is really about gently redirecting that you've heard what they've said, " no, no, no, no, no. That's not what I'm thinking." And at the same time, you're also pointing out that there's this disconnect between what they're saying, how they're saying it, and what else is going on. So if they say, No, no, no, no, no. Then again, the question, the, the rejoinder, the, the follow up is, can you help me understand what made you decide to delete your email accounts or your social media accounts? What made you decide to not go to practice today. What made you decide to drop out of the school play? What, you know, what made you decide to drive your car at 80 miles an hour in a 20 mile an hour speed zone. So I think that kind of going back and checking in will give your the child a sign or your student a sign that you really want to know. That you, you, that it's not a one and done. I asked you, you said no, I walked away for an accusation. Right. And it's not an accusation either, right? It, it really is. I'm here, I'm concerned. I need to know what's going on. And the story that you're telling me doesn't make sense to me, and so I need you to help me make sense of this because I love you, I care about you and I don't want anything bad to happen to you. And  Susan Stone: the instinct Heath is, that's a lot of pressure on parents. So yeah. Would you agree that if a parent has any doubt, what's wrong with just having them, the child or the students screened by a mental health professional? And if so, how reliable are those screens?  Heath Hightower: Yeah, that's a really good question. So one of, So I think one of the things you have to think about is. Are you forcing the kid to go? Or is the kid going because they want to go talk to the mental health professional? I think we all know that if we try to make our, our teens and our young adults do things that they don't want to do, they're pretty skilled at telling adults, even train clinicians what they think the trained clinician wants to hear. Right? And so I think that. I think that while I understand that your question is implying, this is putting a lot of pressure on moms and dads to figure this out themselves. It's therapist. Right, Right. It's, it's true, but it's also true that you are likely to know your child and have a better relationship with your child than anybody else in their life. That is an adult. Now, there may be a coach, there may be a teacher that they would feel more comfortable with. And in that case, you know, you might want to enlist that adult's help to try to get the screening done. So I think. Your other question is also to what degree are these screening tools effective? Right, So the, Yeah, so I think that a couple of things depends on whether they're effective or not. One thing that determines effectiveness is has the student or child been screened before? Right. So if a child already knows what the questions are and what the consequences may be, if they say yes to a specific question, then they may be less likely to be forthcoming. Right.  Susan Stone: Which is fear of being put in a hospital.  Heath Hightower: Yes.  Susan Stone: Or put in a wilderness program or anter alternative therapeutic environment. They're gonna game it.  Heath Hightower: Right. Exactly. Yeah. Kristina Supler: But do the screening measures have a built in means to look for lingering or manipulation or, or something like that? Or, or perhaps not. Okay. Interesting. Heath Hightower: No, no. No, I mean a lot. Again, screenings are about yes or no is, is someone positive or negative for suicidality. I mean, and again, these inter A screening interview is built for efficiency. It's built to be administered in less than a minute. It's all yes or no questions.  Kristina Supler: How do you make that assessment in one minute with yes and no? Well, less than, yeah. Less than one minute. Yeah. That's i's blowing my mind.  Heath Hightower: Yeah. So I think it's important to differentiate between screenings and assessments. So a screening. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. So in, in professional parlance a screening is a, a brief tool simply to determine whether or not there is what probability that a person has a particular experience. In this case we're talking about to what degree or to what probability does a child or an adult or a youth, how probable is it that they're suicidal right at this very second. If the, if they test positive, which is that, which is to say there is a real high likelihood that they are experiencing some form of suicidality, then the next step would be to do a much more thorough assessment. Kristina Supler: So it. I'm just thinking through parents who might have a great relationship with their student or child or maybe not. And you know, a follow up question is when should they get screened? But I think it sounds like real sudden changes in behavior. I mean, is that fair? I'm thinking about before when you said getting off of social media, driving fast, the impulsivity, Susan Stone: if you know they're driving fast, Right? Kristina Supler: I mean, Right. And that again, is assuming a lot of knowledge that as we see in our practice, there's many parents out there, and I don't say this with judgment, but just as a matter of observation who don't have any clue Susan Stone: or the last to know. Kristina Supler: Right. Right. Yes. So I mean, are there, can you be a little more specific on mm-hmm. when a student should be screened or assessed?  Heath Hightower: Well, I think the shortest answer is, is when mom and dad are concerned.  Kristina Supler: I like that. Fair? Fair. Yeah. That seems to make good sense. So a follow up question as well that I had is Sure. What can you tell us about any correlation between substance abuse and suicide, particularly among the, the student young adult population.  Susan Stone: Which is, I just wanna follow up when we deal with our college kids Yeah. The most of them are using some form of creation, recreational drug or alcohol use.  Heath Hightower: Yep. Yeah. So there's a, there's a strong correlation, right? There's a, that one of, one of the risk factors is of course, substance use. And again, the substance use does two things potentially to increase that risk. It disinhibit people. So it, it, it increases the probability of impulsivity. And at the same time, people often use substances to self medicate. So they are also using a substance as a form of self-treatment for an underlying mental health condition, or to manage their stress or to manage. The anxiety they might feel about performing at the track meet or at the football game, or at the volleyball tournament or the test they have to take the next day. And if they're using alcohol, which is in and of itself a central nervous system depressant, that's gonna compound the depressive feelings that they might be having. So there's a, there's a strong association. Um,  Susan Stone: school just started.  Heath Hightower: Yes, it did.  Susan Stone: Homesickness, especially for freshmen. Yep. Is normal. Yes. But it's really scary when your kid might be across the country or in the next day and you don't see your student every day and you get the call and home sickness. I'm lonely. How do you know when you should , get in the car and go see your kid. Or even say, You know what, Maybe it's time to come home. Maybe you weren't ready. Mm-hmm. , because we actually do see a lot of cases where kids really, especially since the pandemic are struggling and you know, parents tend to say, Well, maybe they should just tough it out or go see the counsel settle in in a couple weeks. Yeah, we've heard that. Mm-hmm. . So what's the point where you say, You know what, I gotta go? Gotta get in the car, get on that plane. Heath Hightower: Yeah, so I think that if you are noticing a frequency of texts and calls from your kid, and again, different, different parents and children have different frequencies with which they communicate with their children.  So I would say that if you're starting to notice kind of increased phone calls, Increased texts, and the theme of those are, Wow, this is really hard. Wow, this is really overwhelming. Gosh, I really miss my bed. Gosh, I really miss mom's cooking. Gosh, I really miss, uh, the dog's spot. I think that that's probably the time to have a conversation about whether or not this is a good fit or not. Right. And  Susan Stone: communication is very different from family to family. I, I know in my own family, it's been very interesting because my husband and his daughter will communicate mostly by text and maybe a phone call once a week where, How many times do my kids call me Right?  Kristina Supler: Many, many, many times Per child. Per day. Yeah. Yes,  Susan Stone: it is great running conversation and also my kids. I tend not to hear from them when they're happy. Uhhuh, when they're miserable, they dump on me. Kristina Supler: Well, that was that. I was gonna make that, that ask. That's right. Sort of the, the follow up, idea about perhaps frequency of calls, texts, whatever, increasing or decreasing. Maybe if it's a very communicative family and then your child starts to withdraw or pull away, that perhaps is a sign for parents as well. Yeah. Would you agree?  Heath Hightower: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think along with frequency is also the content of that communication. Like if most of the communication is about sadness and like they've not made any friends and school is really hard and you know, they eat by themselves in the dining hall every night and you know, they aren't doing the typical college engagement things like joining clubs or, you know, meeting new people and going to lectures or whatever it is. If what, if all you're really hearing is how miserable the experience is, how negative it is, how hard it is, I think, I think it's important to pay attention to the content of the themes of what's being communicated as well as the frequency. Kristina Supler: So let's take it a step further there. There's a shift in communication between student and parents, such that parents or or loved ones say, Okay, let's, let's go visit. Let's get in the car and go, as Susan said, Yeah, after you have that visit, and let's say the the communication that seems a little off continues on, what guidance or, or I guess food for thought can you offer for parents who are wrestling with that decision of maybe is it time for my child to come home versus just having, I don't wanna say just, I'm not trying to minimize, but coming home versus working with on campus mental health counselors.  Susan Stone: Mm-hmm. , which might I add is not always so accessible. We've learned that too. Well,  Kristina Supler: particularly in our, our pandemic world.  Susan Stone: Yeah. It's not always easy to get a counselor.  Heath Hightower: Yeah. So I, I, I guess a couple of things. One thing that I think I would say about the, how do moms and dads discern between when to bring them home, when to have them stay, when to try to access resources locally, wherever their child is going to college. Again, probably needs to involve the student because now we're talking about college age folks who are 18 years or older probably. Um, and maybe  Kristina Supler: who don't sign a release for their parents to be in the loop. Right?  Heath Hightower: That's right. That's right. Exactly. So I so that, that's a whole other kettle of fish. So in those instances where your child may not be communicative, they've kind of cut you out of the loop. I think the thing to do to both be respectful as well as to be proactive is to let your student, your college student know we're worried about you. We're not hearing from you. We're gonna be in touch with the hall director, with your RA, with your coach, with your,  Susan Stone: That's practical. Heath Hightower: Right, Exactly. And because, and again, I think it's really always important for moms and dads to frame this as, We love you, we care about you, and we want you still here. Keith, every family has had a conversation about death, whether it's, God forbid, a dog, a pet, a grandparent, I would say the talk of suicide comes up and, And there are religious beliefs about it. Yeah. But what is a healthy family narrative, would you say, for parents to message along with obviously, that this is not something that is, should ever be an option? This is something that there's always a better path. There's always, you know, the rainbow, but what is a real way to message this on a family position?  I think one of the things about the moment that we're living in right now is that we're, we see and hear suicide in the lyrics of music much, much more than we used to. We are seeing television shows and Netflix specials that are kind of focused on suicide characters. Television shows, kind of central characters oftentimes have died places. What was the name,  Susan Stone: Kristina, that one, That teen show that just came out about the topic. Was it 13...  Kristina Supler: 13 Reasons Why on that Couple years ago. And it was incredibly popular and I think Right. Hopefully opens, uh, a pathway for some conversations and families, but So what are your thoughts, Heath?  Heath Hightower: Any time the topic of suicide enters the popular cultural conversation, that's the entry point. That's the place to say, Gosh, you know, I just heard that there's this TV show on Netflix called 13 Reasons Why. Have you heard about that? And if they say, No, I've not heard about it, then you know, I would probably say, Well, gosh, you know, your mom and dad and I were flipping through Netflix and we saw this show and we thought we'd watch the first episode. And it made us realize that we've never had a conversation with you and your brothers and sisters about suicide. And you know, as your mom and dad, we, part of our responsibility is to help prepare you for the world. We'd really like to talk to you about that and wonder what you and your friends might be talking about or thinking about as it relates to suicide. And kind of open it up as a conversation that way. Kristina Supler: I think that's great advice. I like that. Just approach stuff, not so much as a, a didactic moment, but rather, Right. Hey, I saw this on the news. Let's, let's have a conversation and sort of see, see where it goes.  Susan Stone: What age, developmentally do students understand that death is permanent? Because I don't even think they process that in college because we see so much suicide. Yeah. What is it? Contagion called? Contagion.  Kristina Supler: Yeah. So that when. Doing some reading and sort of getting thoughts in order for today. We came across this phrase that I, I hadn't really heard, and yeah, I'm probably gonna mispronounce it. I think I did. Contagion. What is this phenomenon, or what does that refer to? Susan Stone: And if you could answer the other, what question? When will students know it's permanent? Go  Heath Hightower: a lot . No, that's ok. So I'll, I'll try to take the questions in the order in which they came. So the age question I think is really interesting because it's, it's not just what chronological age is your child, it's what developmental age are they at? We know that, we know, for example, that. abstract thinking, which is something that typically starts emerging in adolescence is probably when people start beginning to fully grasp what that is. But again, it's. It's a process of learning what that is. It's not a one day, you have no idea what death is the next day you do know. I think depending on, when a family has had pets If you have pets in your house, when your children are fairly young, those pets will likely die when your children are still fairly young. So the topic of death is, Well,  Kristina Supler: we had a deceased fish in my house last year. Sorry to interrupt you, but it was That's okay. It it, it was a very significant event in our household. Yes. Susan Stone: Still remember when my goldfish, Mr. Limpid died? Mm-hmm. , I still remember. Yes. It was bad right at that moment and  Heath Hightower: right, and, and again, there may be pieces of you that don't fully understand why the fish died. You're not, you're not willing or able to fully grasp that just yet.  Kristina Supler: Sure. Well, my, it was, you know, kidding aside, it really was a developmentally significant event for my son in particular. And so That's right. Well, my husband and I are, are kind of chuckling about the fish that, you know, didn't take it because Right. The fish, but it was, yeah, it, it was a significant event that was an opportunity for a lot of discussion and so it's Right,  Susan Stone: but the discussion on death versus suicide, It's a different discussion, isn't it? Heath Hightower: Yes, and primarily because in our culture we have two categories of death, good deaths and bad deaths. And suicide throughout human history, especially in our culture, has always been considered a very bad death.  Susan Stone: That's interesting. To separate it out we have. Heath, I, we're almost at the hour, and I feel like we haven't even gotten through half our outline.  Kristina Supler: No, no. I I have one question that I think is really important for our listeners. Sure. When there is something an issue of suicide, how can, on campus, how can students support each other after the death of a classmate.  Heath Hightower: Yeah, that's a really good question. So I think the, the thing to remember is that simply being present and available to people is probably the most supportive thing. I think as someone who spends every single day of his professional life right now, talking to individuals and families who have lost someone to suicide, I more than anybody else know that there's no magic words that I say because there's nothing magic I can do to bring their loved one back. The thing I can offer people though, Is my presence, uh, my willingness to listen to their story, to be patient, to answer their questions as openly and honestly as I know how to. And when I don't know the answer to something, I don't try to bullshit my way through it. I, I simply will say, you know, I don't know the answer to that question. That's an excellent question. Let's try to figure that out together. I think the, the one thing that I always wanna convey is that no one should grieve alone when it comes to a death by suicide. And because of the, and because of the stigma around suicide, many, many families, many, many individuals do grieve by themselves because there is so much stigma around a death by suicide. Individuals and families are are afraid that others will blame them for their loved one's death.  Susan Stone: Well, I love concluding with the message that nobody should grieve alone because that is definitely the most compassionate approach that we can take and that is real talk and a message that everybody needs to just pause on and reflect.  Heath, thank you. Thank you, thank you. I can't say I enjoyed this conversation cuz it's painful even listening to it, but it's an important conversation for us to have.  Kristina Supler: Indeed. Dr. Hauer, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate your time and your insights. Thank you.

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Danielle Citron, author, privacy expert, and a law professor at the University of Virginia School of Law.  They discuss digital privacy and the internet. The conversation includes the little-known ways your data is being collected and sold, how your data can potentially be weaponized against you, the sad reality of how the law works against victims of digital privacy violations and how to become a better digital citizen.  Links: Website: https://www.daniellecitron.com  Show Notes: (00:28) How the internet has made life a lot more convenient these days (00:52) Why the internet is also a dangerous place for students  (03:13) What is the concept of intimate privacy on the internet? (03:50) Why your personal data is not actually, “safe,” and is actually being tracked and sold to marketers  (05:16) Why even the Department of Defense advises its enlistees from using 23 and me or similar services  (05:54) How your DNA is legally being sold and exploited by ancestry composition services, even outside of the United States (08:30) Don't take nude photos or sex videos if you don't want to be vulnerable  (09:15) Why you may be charged with child pornography even if you take your own nudes or send them consensually.  (10:15) What consenting adults need to know before sharing their nudes with others (11:03) The harsh reality of what happens when you report your vulnerable photos being misused to the authorities (12:24) Why women and minorities are more vulnerable to being exploited online (13:38) Can data on your period tracking apps be used against women since the criminalization of abortion in some states? (15:56) How our phones can essentially be weaponized against us by law enforcement, thanks to  advertisers, marketers, data brokers. (17:03) How even your location and Google search history can create a domino effect of circumstantial evidence (18:39) Will the purpose of your search history be considered should it be used against you in a criminal case? (20:22) Hate speech online: Are the First Amendment rights in favor of the violators in the non-private sector? (22:00) How intimate privacy violations are handled in the private sector: working with Atty. General Kamala Harris on building the cyber exploitation task force. (25:22) Dealing with intimate privacy violations: Why your photo may legally be allowed to stay online because of section 230 of the Communications Decency Act (26:55) How Section 230 has been drastically misconstrued especially in social media violations (28:07) Why Reddits and sub-reddits are the new breeding ground of non-consensual intimate imagery  (28:32) How the law is further victimizing victims of digital privacy violations  (30:06) Why it is crucial to change the law that protects the solicitors of intimate privacy violations instead of the victims (32:10) How to be a better digital citizen: For you and for other people (33:40) Why speaking up is necessary to put a stop to digital privacy violations Transcript: Susan Stone: So this is the second in a two-part series. Is there a series? If there's only two?  Kristina Supler: I think we've just made it one.  Susan Stone: Okay. On digital privacy and the internet. , I think we can all agree that the internet brings with us a lot of ease to our life. I know that today I ran out of toothpaste and went right on my Amazon and clicked, Didn't have to run out. There you go. But it can also be a scary place  Kristina Supler: In our practice representing students in, in various contexts we're dealing and wrestling with digital evidence every day and in a variety of different contexts. We handle cases involving sexting, cancel culture, and different iterations of that, and it's, it's amazing to see. I'm still amazed, Susan, I don't know if you feel the same way, what our, our clients and their peers say and do and put on the internet.  Susan Stone: Well, it's not just that. It's that I still have a lot of trouble with the fact that the whole etiquette of our society has changed with the internet and with cell phones. I still think it's incredibly rude to look at your cell phone at the dinner table. And I will often say to my adult children and my high school age children, put it down. Well, talk to me. I'm right here.  Kristina Supler: Absolutely. I agree. Well, today we are thrilled to be joined by the esteemed Danielle Citron, who's a law professor at the University of Virginia School of Law. where she teaches and writes about privacy, free expression and civil rights. For the past decade, she's worked as a civil rights advocate and has worked with lawmakers, law enforcement officers, and various tech companies to combat online abuse and to protect intimate privacy. She's been directly involved in some reform effort. Surrounding the regulation of various online platforms. Since 2011, Danielle has been a member of Safety Task Forces for Facebook and Twitter, and she also serves as an advisor for. Dating apps like Bumble and Streaming Services and TikTok, so be interested to hear more about that. She's written countless articles published across the G Globe and her most recent book, which just came out is titled The Fight for Privacy, Protecting Dignity, Identity, and Love in The Digital Age. Danielle, thanks for joining us.  Danielle Citron: We're really excited. Thanks so much for having me. Awesome.  Susan Stone: Well, d Danielle, you study how most of our private data is collected and stored. Can you talk to our listeners about intimate privacy. What it is, and how does it impact our daily life?  Danielle Citron: So the concept of intimate privacy is all the ways that we others have access to and information about our bodies, our health, our innermost thoughts that we, we essentially convey all day long. Our browsing, our reading, our searching our, of course texting and emailing our information and access to, uh, our sexual activities our sex, our sexual orientation, our gender, and our closest relationships. And all day long, every day we go about our lives sharing and provid access to our intimate privacy Kind of expecting hoping, and of course, deserving intimate privacy.  And I wish I could say that we have it, but unfortunately we often don't. So when we go to a hotel room or a public bath bathroom, we sort of assume that no one is taping us there when we, take a nude photo of ourselves or share really intimate thoughts with a loved one via text. We assume that they are gonna keep that confidential. And when companies ferry that information and store that information, we assume, right? They're gonna protect it from hacking. And when we use apps, we search, we check out our health, a digital assistance, like our health apps, our Fitbit. We share information about our health conditions, whether we've gotten our period, whether you. We have visited adult sites. The videos that we watch, all that information, we of course want, expect and hope, privacy, that we enjoy privacy. What we don't think, and we don't realize is that all that information is being tracked, sold to advertisers as and marketers and then to data brokers. Susan Stone: You know what's so interesting? I did the 23andme. and I am, oh boy. Oh  boy, .  Well,  Danielle Citron: there  Susan Stone: was nothing, surprisingly, I am mostly an Ashkenazi jew. That should be no surprise to anybody and a part Neanderthal. But what I was shocked with is the emails that have flowed in as a result  Kristina Supler: of me. You just been inundated by junk, or you name it. Susan Stone: It's bizarre. I mean, now I guess the government knows all my genetic information. Wow.  Danielle Citron: Right, So, So I'm a little worried, right? The Department of of Defense tells all of its Enlistees and all of its officers that they shouldn't use 23 and me. Because that information Wow is gonna be shared outside, you know, the United States and potentially with governments that could use it to extort and blackmail. Uh, they're enlistees. So tell us like, if the DO OD is telling them not to do it, why are you doing it?  Kristina Supler: Where did Susan's information go?  Susan Stone: Yeah, tell me and what are they gonna do with the fact? Tell me that I'm an Ashkenazi Jew. I mean, I don't know. Well,  Kristina Supler: is it in,  Danielle Citron: you're, you're a DNA isn't just relevant to you. It's relevant to everyone who shares some of that material. And so that makes your identity and the identity of people in your family and those you care about, then visible, detectable to others. And that's not just including, of course, marketers and advertisers, which I don't want that happening either. But it's still, it's happening. It's, these information is not covered and protected by hipaa. But because it's eligible to be sold and exploited, it's eligible to be sold and exploited to data brokers who are selling it to non USA  Susan Stone: uS governments. Danielle, my husband wouldn't participate because he said he didn't want anyone knowing about his dna. And I told him he was crazy. So David, sounds like you're  Kristina Supler: the, You could, That's  Danielle Citron: pot-kettle, right? And it's not like I'm wearing its tin hat. Right friends. I'm not. No, I agree. All these ways that I gotta say I love my Spotify app . There are all these ways in which I love these tools too. So I'm, I'm not suggesting that we throw them in the sea. Our phones, right, our apps. But what I am saying is that there's so little protection that 23 and me might think, Gosh, that's health. Of course they're protecting my dna and the answer is absolutely not. HIPAA does not apply, nor does the, genetic, uh, non-discrimination information Act only applies to employers. So it's honestly, I wanna, I, you know, I wanna allow us some room to say some things don't do. But also to call for structural reforms cuz there's only so much I want you to have to get rid of . I want us to use these tools, but I want us to use them in ways that are with commitments of protection. Sure.  Kristina Supler: Mm-hmm. . So I'd like to circle back. You had mentioned nude photos and Yeah. Again, that's something Susan, I mean we,  Susan Stone: we've all the time, Kristina Supler: many, many cases involving nude photos and you speak in your book uh, about how nude photos, extortion, revenge porn. It, it's something that is, is on the rise in terms of abuse. When we talk about nude photos, I think sometimes society as a whole might be quick to say. People might judge and say, Well, if you don't want people to see 'em, Don't take 'em otherwise, you, you incur the risk. What's your response to that type of thinking? Susan Stone: And might I add, I know we give advice all the time to parents to tell, say to their kids, This is a hard no. I know you just spoke about you don't wanna put too many fences up or guardrails. You want people to enjoy some of the benefits of the internet. But this is an area I know we feel strongly, especially with minors. No nude photos first.  Danielle Citron: Yeah. Yeah.  Kristina Supler: What's the response?  Danielle Citron: Yeah, I've got two. The first is that to the response that if you don't wanna be vulnerable, don't take the photos. It belies the reality that sex videos can be made about you without your involvement.  Kristina Supler: The deep fakes. Danielle Citron: Not only Right, right, right. Not only the non-consensual sort of, um, videotaping in your bedroom that you don't know about, haven't permitted, but fakery. Mm-hmm. . So women's and girls' faces are swapped into porn at. There are now like 60,000 videos, deep fake sex videos, digitally manipulated videos online. And guess what? 95% of them are deep fake sex videos and over 98% of them are women and girls' faces. It's terrifying. You would. Terrifying. So the idea that like you shouldn't have done it, the answer is, well, you didn't. Okay, That's the first. The second is heated agreement about anyone under 18. Right. If you're on 18, it's understood as child exploitation material. Yes. So even if you create it yourself, even if you consensually share it with someone your own age, you know, like share it with another 15 year old with whom you're in a relationship with, the answer is for both of you, it's child sexual exploitation material, even though which is violates federal and state law, even though the whole point of these rules are. Predation, right? Child predators, but they're very formalistic, these roles. And it's like you make it, you share it. And even if you're in a consensual relationship, you're 16, you've got another, you know, you have a partner who's 16, don't do it. So I would say I'm totally at, agree with me. Whenever I give calls, I mean, talks to folks who were under 18. I say, Don't do it. You're not allowed. State and federal law says it's child pornography. Too much risk. Um, It. Right. And I do also say to young people who are over 18, and I have some of them in my own house two 20 year olds in that age range, age range. I say there's nothing wrong with sexual expression at all. Like what was important to my spouse and I making mixed tapes and writing love letters is like, it has a different valence. You do it differently in the 21st century. Right. But I do say makes you trust the person. Because of course it could be fakey, but crucially, you gotta be sure you're sharing in a confidential relationship. It doesn't guarantee anything. But I don't wanna be that person who says you can't do it when you're 25. But I do say be careful with whom one shares because trust is everything.  Susan Stone: Well, and I'd like to add, a lot of people aren't aware that it's the one who takes the picture that owns the copyright of the picture. So you might think it's give it back to, it's me, it's my photo. But the law says otherwise.  Danielle Citron: Right. And, and that we have to look to copyright to help us, protect us is unfortunate cuz it's not about property and, you know, and, and creativity and making money off of the photo. This is about privacy. That's right. And it's about, you know, my image doesn't belong to you and shouldn't be appropriated even if you took it and. I wish I could say was law was more responsive. When people non consensually share nude images of you without your permission, assuming you're over 18 law enforcement, often you go report it and they say, Sorry, close your computer. Boys will be boys. It's your, it's your fault. Yeah, they don't do anything. They see a lot of that. And then it's really hard to get lawyers who are willing to represent you low bono or pro bono. Mm-hmm. . Cause we gotta make a living somehow, attorneys. Right. And you can't go to a. There's no deep pocket, can't go to the platforms, right? And when you wanna sue a, a perpetrator, they probably have very little money. So it, it's becomes like a way in which the response to victim is, Well, go sue your perpetrator, or go put them in jail. And the answer is, you can do almost neither as a practical matter. So we need to kind of rethink how we protect intimate privacy in the digital age. Susan Stone: In your opinion, what groups of people are the most vulnerable when it comes to intimate privacy, collecting, mining, and selling. Danielle Citron: Okay, so, so first things first. It's not my opinion, and these are just add to evidence, right? We have studies that show when it comes to the non-consensual sharing of intimate images. This is across the globe that women in their twenties are most vulnerable. Okay? So that's first things first. The second is that we also know that when it comes to the exp, you know, the collection use and sharing of our. So that's the everyday companies, right? Collecting, using, and sharing our data, that it's gonna be more costly and is more costly for women, non-whites, LGBTQ individuals, people from vulnerable communities because it's their bodies, right? That are stigmatized, right? So when you, a nude photo is posted online of a woman versus a man, the response to the man is like, Go get him. You know, good for you guy. And for the woman, it costs her her job. It makes it impossible to date. She sort of disappears. So we know that the exploitation of intimate information, the information about your bodies, your health, your sexual activities, your close relationships, that's gonna be more costly to women and vulnerable people. Kristina Supler: You mentioned that law enforcement in the United States. They have some of the biggest intimate privacy consumers. You talk about this in your book, How pertinent is it that now, especially since the overturning of Roe versus Wade in June what can you tell us about how data collection can be weaponized against women? Danielle Citron: Uh, so what do they say? We, we were holding all of our breath, right, before the leak. Mm-hmm. of the Dobbs decision. And now that we have the Dobbs decision we know of course that now there are over 14 states that have criminalized abortion, some at the start, and then others, like within a certain band. And all of that infor, that is the information that is collected on our period tracking apps, our search engine. Our location data collected by apps that are then shared all of this with data brokers, tell a story about where we've gone. Have we seen a health provider? Do we cross state lines and go visit a, you know, a Planned Parenthood where in a state where abortion is legal, have we gone to CVS and purchased menstrual pads? Right? Did we tell our period tracking app that we didn't get our period and then we got it Again? All of that is circumstantial. For a prosecutor that we terminated a pregnancy or potentially so, so I, I,  Susan Stone: This sounds so big brother, Orwellian. Are you trying to say that you think there's gonna be a tracker on young women in their ages of like 15, 16 to 30? I mean, it just seems outrageous. I mean, I, I can't imagine that an individual woman thinking about going about their business, regardless of whether they're gonna have an abortion, but I'm just talking in general. Are you saying there's like a, some sort of geo tracker or that the government is watching every young woman? Danielle Citron: Yes. Right now, Look at your phone. Do you, If you bring your phone with me, like you have your phone, right? Mm-hmm. , you've got apps on your phone. If a young woman, girl, woman brings a phone with her to a clinic, her, her phone tells the story of where she's been. There are 40 data brokers whose focus is location that as they track everywhere you go. And those data brokers right now, so I'm not kidding when I say right now data brokers have contracts with law enforcement, the state, local, and federal level. Those location data brokers right now are selling that information. Kristina Supler: That is just wild.  That's.  Danielle Citron: Wow, that makes sense. So I don't, I'm not suggesting that like law enforcement has placed a, this will sound very tin hatty. I'm not suggesting that there's a chip on you, but your phone. and we love our phones of course, and the Supreme Court is recognized in Riley that like our phone is an extension of our souls, right? Mm-hmm. , it knows more about us than our diaries did in our homes. This is this Rob Justice Roberts speaking about a Fourth Amendment decision with regard to our cell phones and needing a warrant to get into our cell phone. Well, our phone is leaking data all day long about us to advertisers, marketers, and in turn to data brokers. So, So  Kristina Supler: enforcement. Sorry to interrupt, I'm just, I. Fascinating.  Susan Stone: I'm like 'Mic Drop!'  Kristina Supler: Well, and, and we do criminal defense work. And so without getting too deep into the Fourth Amendment and probable cause and warrants and all that, I'm just curious because I, I, I did not know this. I've learned, uh, some really, really valuable information. Once law enforcement purchases this data, like what do they do with it? Just put it in a database that they cruise through  Susan Stone: or, or do they, They send it to a prosecutor to take it to a grand jury.  Danielle Citron: Yeah, and they can use it. I mean, what I think I'm most worried about is the use of the purchase data to to tell a story in a search warrant. That you then go and get, you know, then a so found probable cause and issued by a judge, and then you use that search warrant to go get the person's communications. Mm-hmm. , right? That their text messages and emails, and we did see that in the Nebraska case, right? Where there was evidence that was used as the basis of a search warrant that then they got text between a mom and a daughter. Their, their Facebook text messages to each other, in which they were talking about getting sort of abortion medicine. So I do worry that information about our location can be used as the circumstantial evidence and basis for a search warrant that then is used to get the communications that we think, gosh, that's the most protected right, are electronic communications. Not only in real time, but then subsequently in storage that you least need, you know, a warrant for. That what makes it easy to get then a warrant is all that circumstantial evidence that's being sold to data brokers. And in terms to  Kristina Supler: law enforcement, I mean, you wanna tell the, the story of your day. I mean, for me it's, it's, it's, look at my Google search history. What did I do all day?  Susan Stone: Well, you know, normally I would say, Kristina, there's nothing juicy on there. But the fact is we represent students involved in sexual assault cases and sometimes we Google things that for professional reasons that how do people know that when we Google consent in different states that it's for our work and not personal. Danielle Citron: Beautifully said. No, no, no. That is, That's so well said. All this is so taken out of context. Mm-hmm. that our searches, you know, we Think they do tell a story of exactly what we're thinking. But as you noted, so well, you're thinking about a case you're working on. Let's say you searched for, you're representing a ter, someone accused of, of a crime related to terrorism. You know, you could, in your practice, why not? Absolutely. And you Right, of course, Right. You're searching bomb making instructions, you know, because it's part of the work that you're doing of the client, right? But we're gonna attribute it to you. Right? So I think you, it's a really wonderfully wonderful example to show how, people often say we have nothing to hide. As my colleague Dan Solov has written a whole book, Nothing to Hide, It's nonsense. We have all have something to hide, and B, it's all taken outta context. So you know what you're searching tells the story of your clients. It tells the story of. Own life and privacy is ours. We shouldn't be have to be having anything to do with hiding. Well, you know what? Or having it framed that way. Right.  Susan Stone: Danielle, you just, actually, I was gonna ask you the question and you answered it. Why should people care? So I'm gonna go to the next thought. Going off of what we've been talking about, big social media companies like Twitter and Facebook and getting people banned off of those platforms.  Let's just talk. Andrew Tate, Kanye West. I know when I heard what Kanye did, it was really upsetting to me. Yeah. And I know that there are mental health issues and battles that he's having, but still the impact on the listener not to sound like a teen. I was triggered. I, I, it was really difficult. How do you balance First Amendment rights with and free speech with saying to these platform? Y you gotta cut it out. You can't, You gotta do a better job monitoring speech and cut it at the path,  Kristina Supler: or just protecting intimate privacy.  Danielle Citron: Yeah, so what's really, I think, gratifying in my work with companies is that they're not First Amendment actors. They're private companies. They curate their communities. Their community guidelines sort of express their values and priorities. And of course we know their data surveillance hubs, , right? How do they make their monies advertising? But at the same time, they're hosting communities and because they're not the government, they can prohibit and ban hate speech. Right. Defined a speech that demeans, that dehumanize, that's incites violence against, uh, members of a group because of their membership right. In that group. And that is subordinating and dehumanizing. And so that is the, I think, gratifying part of my job is that because I'm not advising the government constrained by the First Amendment. I can say to companies, You know what, Hate speech creates an environment in which there's permission to discriminate against attack, abused torment, physically attack individuals, right? Hate speech, we know leads to murder. And so I, I. You know, you asked about the First Amendment and its role in toggling through and dealing with all types of speech. And the first example was hate speech and, Kanye's remarks about, you know, Jewish individuals. And then the question about intimate privacy. And I've been lucky to work with companies that wanna tackle intimate privacy violations. and in part because when she was the attorney general Kamala Harris, Enlisted me to advise her for privacy on privacy for two years, and then to work together on her, what she called the cyber exploitation task force. And we brought together 50 companies in a basement room. in, in the AG's office. Right. And in California, in San Francisco. And this is 2015, February, 2015 before Google and Bing their view is we don't touch speech on our search engines. And many of these companies were like, Sorry, we're not gonna band on consensual pornography. And after we broke into working groups and, public pressure came to bear. And essentially, so in June of 2015, Google and Bing announced that they're gonna dein index. Non-consensual, intimate images and searches of people's names, and that's so much what victims wanted. And companies like, as Twitter, YouTube Facebook you know, you name it, sort of Reddit jumps on the bandwagon and says, Yeah, we're banning it as well. So, intimate privacy violations. Uh, you can tackle them under the First Amendment that as we have at the Cyber Civil Rights Initiative, we worked with state lawmakers across the country and there are now 48 laws DC and two territories that criminalize the practice, Unfortunately, as misdemeanors, but their laws on the books. And in five states that have gotten to the state's highest court, all five laws were upheld. They ran them through the crucible of strict scrutiny and the court said, These are constitutional laws, right? They're narrow, they get at a compell. Interest in protecting from harm Individuals who nude photos have been posted without consent. It's the least restrictive means available so we can tackle it even under the first amendment right, intimate privacy violations, we can regulate. Just following up, hope I answered that. They're both two good questions and I wanna make sure I answered both of them. You did great job  Kristina Supler: and, and I'd like to follow up even more so. So in our practice we are, it, it is not uncommon for us to meet with students and parents whose lives have been just decimated because various content has made its way to the internet. Susan Stone: I mean, cancel culture is kids, uh, throw up the word, This kid is a racist. This kid is a rapist. And immediately when other students read it, they believe it. They don't consider, Well, what's the source? Who's saying it? If you read it, ergo,. It must be true.  Kristina Supler: One of the most difficult conversations we have with these students and parents, people's whose lives have been turned upside down, they say, Make it stop. Make it stop. And someone's, someone must be held responsible. This can't go on and on. And we have to unfortunately explain that there's, there's laws and protections and immunity for these, these platforms and it's, it's really difficult for these families. Can you tell us, in your book you write about section 230 of the Communications Decency Act. Tell us a little bit about the immunity for some of these platforms based on the content, because I know this issue of content on the internet, we wrestle with it every day. And, and in particular, I'd like to add, can you frame it in a way that parents can get a nugget of what they can do if their child's being canceled online?  Danielle Citron: Okay, so, so first things first, just to kind of emphasize the point that when information is posted online is my, um, I, I interviewed 60 people for my book from around the world, and what resonated for every story for story, right, the posting of nude photos without permission was that like, it was like an incurable disease that no matter when you Googled yourself, there probably would be more nude photos posted about you. Mm-hmm. , that it was impossible to get that content taken down. And you might say, Okay, how is that possible? And this goes to our question about Section 230. There's a federal law passed by Congress in 1996 which at the time was designed to encourage, they called them Interactive Computer Services, but you know, online providers from cleaning up the. Right. So the deal that these two congressmen struck, then Congressmen Ron Whited and Congressman Chris Cox, was that they said, Listen, we're gonna provide a legal shield and immunity from being sued. We're not gonna treat you like you've been publishing or speaking content that somebody else posts. We're gonna let you leave up or take down information. And they framed it as thinking about companies as good Samaritans who'd be filtering and blocking offensive content, Danielle, to the statute.  Susan Stone: That is not how I view Section 230 to today.  Danielle Citron: Today, Of course. Yeah. No, no. Let me explain. So that's the explain, you know, that's how Chris Cox and Rod whiten like frame the statute. Whoa. Right. Second mic drop . And how it's been interpreted there. Two provisions and, and, and probably in your world, you're focusing on the leave up provision. It's been interpreted really broadly to mean that if you leave up information that's illegal, you're free from liability. Even if you've encouraged it, even if you've solicited it, even if you know for sure and you keep it up despite the fact that people have given you proof that it's untrue, it's, it's not what you want. Non-consensual, intimate imagery, no matter. These sites enjoy immunity from responsibility. So that means that when you go to TikTok and there is a, a video created by someone that repost, let's say non-consensual intimate imagery or that repeats lies about someone that are untrue, that ruin their reputation, that the company can. Well, they, they'll accept complaints about it, but they don't have to take it down, and you can't sue them to take it down because of section 230. Now, TikTok has a very comprehensive community guidelines, and I'm working on those guidelines. Right. But let's say we're not talking about a TikTok. We're talking about four chan. We're talking about a sub-reddit. Right, and  Susan Stone: which is getting more popular. The sub-reddit. Danielle Citron: That's right. Re the subreddits are on fire with non-consensual intimate imagery and lots of abuse and the company just ignores complaints. Right. At least I've reported myself non, and I'm literally have nothing to do with the people in the photos. It's so clear from the photos. These subreddits are totally devoted to non-consensual intimate imagery. And they don't care. And they just say, Sorry, you, we haven't violated the, you haven't violated the community guidelines and therefore we're gonna keep it up.  So that's what, you know, you ask like, how is it that content that destroys people's lives can remain online and that individuals have no recourse. And the answer is that the party in the best position to minimize the damage to make it stop. Not to prevent what's harm, the harm that's happened, but to make the harm stop from continuing. Those parties have been understood very broadly to be immune from responsibility. And so the platform can get request letter. Plea after plea and ignore those pleas to take down content, even though that content is destroying the life of a minor, even though that content is invading intimate privacy and cruel and horrific ways, they can just ignore it. Uh, and there are sites whose whole purpose, so there are 9,500 sites whose per purpose is abuse. That is, they focus on intimate image violations like they're called hidden cam, hidden camera. They're not that like sophisticated Mr. Deep fakes. Those sites, even though they've solicited users. To encourage them to post intimate images that they is not, that's not consensually posted. Even though they have received complaints from victims. Please take it down. Um, this is destroying my life. They can ignore it and enjoy immunity from responsibility. So I hope that helps illustrate just how broad this immunity is, right? Even sites whose business model is illegality, intimate privacy violations there, get off scott free. .  Kristina Supler: That's wild. What can we do short of lobbying to change the law? Danielle Citron: We gotta change the law. . Okay. Join me in the fight, right? Absolutely. With folks on the hill, right? Both Democrats and Republicans Senate in house on proposals, uh, in my pitch and, and. I've been somewhat successful but not as successful as I had hoped is to exclude from the immunity provision. Ban Samaritans. Sites that encourage solicitor keep up intimate privacy violations, they shouldn't enjoy the, should not enjoy the immunity and that otherwise for the everyday, companies that are trying but at scale, it's hard that they should have duties of care to address intimate privacy violations and other content that amounts to cyber stalking. Do you know, and the Congress  Susan Stone: I want to ask a question because a lot of these kids, when they call someone out for what they perceive as a bad act, They don't see themselves as bad Samaritans. In fact, they think it's their duty if they hear something to let the world know. And so it seems like there's a, a shift in culture as to what information should be spread. I mean, I know that I was raised with the concept of if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it. And if you don't know for sure really don't say it. But that's not the culture today. Don't you think we need to do a cultural shift on fact checking, be more skeptical? I mean, I think that's, It's hard at the  Kristina Supler: root because on the one hand we've had to work for so many years. Danielle Citron: That's right.  Kristina Supler: To encourage students and individuals of all ages to speak up and speak out about injustices. But yet now we've had this big shift and it's, you know, you have to ask, has the pendulum swung too far in terms of people speaking up and speaking out about what they perceive to be injustice? Susan Stone: That's a really nice context. How did we get here? And we got here because everyone was so silenced. Good point .  Danielle Citron: Yep. No, that's right. And I think the first thing, and I, and I imagine you're doing this in your work all the time and in your practice, is talking to parents about teaching their kids about how not only they should protect themselves, but crucially protect other people. And think about privacy for me as privacy for they. That is, we're all in this together and we've gotta think about how to be better digital citizens and think, as you said, really. Before.  Kristina Supler: Oh, I like that. How to be a better digital citizen.  Susan Stone: I like that. Love that. I, We're gonna steal that line cause we, we might have to, of course. Did you copyright that one if not one. I,  Danielle Citron: I have an article called Intermediaries and Hate Speech Fostering Digital Citizenship for Information Age. And it came out in the LAR review in, in 2011. And it was about how we teach our kids and how intermediaries mean platforms can be a part of the conversation about hate speech and, and what that means. Check that out. That's a great article. Citizen. Yeah, so it's a BU law review. It was like July, 2011. No, feel free, we all should talk about digital citizenship, however you wanna conceive of it but, I've conceived of it is how we think about our own ourselves and our duties to other people. And how we wanna make sure everyone can get the most out of online, you know, life that's networked. There's no other place, cyberspace. It's in us, all of us all the time. And that we have to think about ways to make it a place where we can, a thrive. And sometimes that means being really careful about what we share. And sometimes it does mean speaking out because for far too long, This is the lesson of the Me Too movement is that, there has been silence around sexual assault, and sadly, who gets hit and burn burns are the victims. You saw that in the Johnny Depp, Amber Hearst defamation trial, that it's still, to this day, misogyny is alive and well and living and breathing and instilled by its victims. Right? So it also, of course, if you're falsely accused of, so. It absolutely is earth shattering. So I think what is great is that cuz you're in touch with parents and students is to teach them about their responsibilities as digital citizens. Not their entitlements, but their responsibilities.  Susan Stone: I, We have to end on that note, even though I wanna talk to you about more things. There is, that is so poignant.. And so helpful, and I can't thank you enough. And I feel like the three of us have more collaboration in our future. I see some synergies in what we do, so thank you. Danielle Citron: Oh gosh. Thank you, Kristina Supler: Danielle. Thank you so much for joining us today. And for our listeners, check out her recent book, The Fight for Privacy, Protecting Dignity, Identity, and Love in the Digital Age.

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Nathan Maynard, author and youth advocate. They discuss Restorative Justice.  The conversation includes the adverse effects of not practicing restorative justice, practical applications of the restorative justice system, and nurturing positive behavior with empathy.  Show Notes: (02:27) What kickstarted Nathan Maynard's unique perspective on restorative justice (05:02) Enhancing learning capacity through the use of restorative justice to develop social capital with others (07:02) Suspension and expulsion  vs. empathy: Which is really a more conducive resolution in school fights? (08:14) The crucial role of educators in the school to prison pipeline (09:37) Do sexual harassment and serious offenses still warrant for restorative justice? (10:33) The restorative justice process and its considerations (11:21) How a student selling drugs can be managed with the restorative justice process (14:32) One deal breaker of the restorative justice process (15:50) A restorative justice success story: the power of social capital and a skilled mediator in a sexual misconduct case (18:06) Should restorative practices be applied in a classroom setting? (20:50) Why cancel culture is doing more harm than good compared to restorative justice  (23:00) ​​How restorative justice gives a voice to those oppressed by the “powerful” by letting all sides be heard (25:28) How to foster empathy by simply being a good listener (26:50) The best practices to avoid treating someone else's problem as your own (28:53) Getting into the zone of control with co-regulation (31:00) Setting expectations instead of rules to influence positive behavior (32:48) The best way to prepare a student who needs to respond to a disciplinary process (34:36) Making a change by changing our mindsets Transcript: Susan Stone: Kristina, I know I'm borrowing off the Bachelor when I say this, but this might be like the best podcast because it's a topic that you know is a personal passion, uh, topic. It's in light of our student disciplinary practice. It's restorative justice. So  Kristina Supler: I know for years, Susan Restorative Justice, It's sort of the little engine that could. This topic we've loved, I recall for years working with you, and you'd come back from suspension hearings, expulsion hearings, you name it, any sort of student misconduct proceeding. And you'd say like, Oh, I'd say, How'd it go? And you're like, Okay. But it's just. It's so unsatisfying. There's gotta be a better way to do this. And yeah, lo and behold, we learned about restorative justice and I remember that moment when we were both sort of that aha moment. We're like, This is it. Oh my gosh. Like this might be the better. That we're looking for.  Susan Stone: Yeah. And in 2017, we went to Swarthmore College and got certified in restorative justice thinking that we were going to convert every school district, every college into our way, and  Kristina Supler: did happen. Did we know that at least colleges and universities in the Title IX contexts certainly weren't ready for restorative justice, but fortunately, Times have changed. We're, we're so pleased to have today's guest with us, Nathan Maynard, who together with Brad Weinstein, wrote the acclaimed book "Hacking School Discipline: nine Ways to Create a Culture of Empathy and Responsibility using Restorative Justice". And Welcome, Nathan, we're so pleased to have you with us. My to have  Susan Stone: you with. We're really happy to have you. Thank you. Yeah, thank.  Kristina Supler: I mean, your book offers such a different perspective and frankly, a refreshing perspective on what could be an effective approach to school discipline. So Nathan, thank you for being here today. We're so pleased. And just tell us a little about your, your background and what led to writing this book. Nathan Maynard: Yeah, definitely. So, I got started in restorative practices back in 2007. I went through training through the I I R P, the International Institute Restorative Practices, and I really fell in love with it right away. I just started to see how this would work with some of the youth that I was working with. I was working in part-time at the time in a residential treatment care center and I was really able. Help me open up the doors just to understand this empathy perspective on other people's lives and, and build from there. After I graduated with my degree in behavioral neuroscience there's a full-time position that opened up there at the Residential Treatment Care Center. So I went full-time. Um, and I started doing that and I ran a unit for three years there and it was really great just. Build off of the stuff and continue to see these practices working, working, working and sort of, trial by fire. Learn stuff and you'd see how things are working from there and just make small ITER iterations. Then after doing that, I went to the clinical team and then I did that for four years. And what I was doing at that time was really helping this restore practices, getting some of the different areas, schools in Lafayette, Indiana. I started seeing all these positive benefits from it and, and the ways that. We were looking at situations as opportunities now instead of situations that were like, roadblocks for these students and working through this. So I did that for a total of seven years in the justice field. Then I went to education. I was a school administrator for a total of about three and a half years. My last position, I was came down here to Indianapolis. Help open up Purdue University's first high school called Purdue Polytechnic High School for underserved and underprivileged youth. At that time I was really able to see how these practices can work in sort of a new setting, new building with this population of students that really need us the most. That's where I met Brad and him and I collaborated together and, created hacking school discipline.  Susan Stone: So it's really interesting. Thank you for sharing that because you met Brad to collaborate on Restorative Justice. And I met Kristina at our, a former practice that we both worked at. I, my background is representing students accused of misconduct. And more and more of our cases had a criminal component where a student would be both looking at an expulsion and disciplinary hearing, and Kristina came in and represented our students in the juvenile delinquency proceedings. And we both came upon restorative justice because we're so sad. Even though we really work on getting good results, we know that it doesn't leave students with better. Yes. So just for our listeners, can you tell us really, what is restorative justice and how does it fit in within the context of the disciplinary system?  Nathan Maynard: Yeah, so I think that the, the cool thing about restorative justice and restorative practices is there's not really this very clear black and white. This is what it's about, you know? But the way that I communicate it out to people is it's this way that we build social capital with other individuals, and the more social capital we have with them, the more that we can have this learning that takes place when situations arise. It's a proactive approach to building relationships and building up that social capital. And then on the reactive side, it's really about, you know, repairing harm and, and focusing on the ways that, we can move past the situation that do arise. We focus a lot on that sense of belonging for our students. And what does that look like to make sure that we're all belonging? Cause we know that the more that we belong somewhere, the less that we're going to feel like an outlier, and that other situations have to happen.  Kristina Supler: So it's interesting to hear you talk about social capital. I have to share with you something that literally happened yesterday. Last night I got home from work. I go on Facebook, I'm scrolling through and in the community Facebook group for where I live. There was this really contentious discussion because the local high school has recently had just surge in student altercations. And so it's like, Oh my gosh, what's happening at the high school? There's fist fights every day. And parents are talking and sharing their feedback. The school district put out a statement that frankly was, Pretty underwhelming and unsatisfactory, and it was striking for me, especially Susan, thinking about today and speaking with you on this podcast, all of the comments by people saying, Expel the troublemaker. It's the only way to get students to listen. Show them this isn't gonna be tolerated. Get 'em out of there. And it was interesting to see how many people were like, Absolutely. That's the way. Zero tolerance. So I'm just curious, I mean, I think I know because you wrote a book about restorative justice, but what, what's your response to this? What would you say if you were in that Facebook group? Yeah,  Nathan Maynard: I think that it's easy when you're not part of that situation to sort of put, you know what you think should happen, but then when you start to empathize and just be a, a good human, Like what we're all saying. We all make mistakes. And I think that we have to be looking at these situations as what does it look like to build off of situations and support not just the learning community, but each one of these individuals there in the school. There's situations where there's needs and obligations that do come up for the safety of the students in the safety of the building, but at the end of the day, what does it look like to make sure that we're not putting our own sort of, Bias onto a situation. We're not putting our own sort of situation where we're trying to push something to happen. We are really looking at this as what does it look like just to move forward? When there's suspensions that do occur, and a student has to be removed from a school, what does it look like to reintegrate them back into that school? What does it look like to make sure we're setting them up for success? A lot of times when something happens and we go back into what happened, It's really tough for us to really put the pieces together without everyone sort of involved in it. And that's what punitive discipline does. It tries to put all these pieces together without including everyone in their mindsets and what's taken place in that.  I'm against zero tolerance, obviously with restorative justice, restorative practices mindset. I do think that exclusionary practices has led to a lot of this huge issue that we have in our society with the school to prison pipeline. That's definitely hitting our historically marginalized populations. So I think that when we're looking at policies, we're looking at ways to support educators. We need to be looking at something where we're doing these consequences that are actually teaching and holding true responsibility for someone's actions instead of just pushing that out into society or into high risk situations. Susan Stone: So Nathan, when Kristina and I are hired, we're not hired for the, Some of the examples you gave in the book. Obviously no one's gonna spend a lot of money for a lawyer. A lawyer, when their kid is suspended for a day for throwing a pencil in the class. We're brought in on sex offenses, sexual assault, sexual harassment, serious plagiarism or academic misconduct, hazing, especially at the collegiate level and drug offenses. My question to you, do you think that under the more serious offenses, then schools should really just rely on a traditional model rather than a restorative approach? or do you think that a restorative approach is appropriate in conjunction with expulsion or separation?  Nathan Maynard: Yeah, I, I think that restorative practices can be really integrated into all aspects of, of discipline there in the school and the justice system. You know, working in the juvenile justice system for, my, my seven plus years. And working with, sexually maladaptive youth going through the court hearings, seeing students and youth that were, placed in Department of Corrections, reintegrating back into the community, we understand that there's always, nothing's indefinite. So what are we doing to looking at this as again, that that whole picture and that reintegration process is so important and there's gotta be teaching that takes place. You know, I think that the justice system overall has a lot of this mindset of, rehabilitation. But what does really rehabilitation look. When you know, you're not looking at repairing the harm and you're not looking at this responsibility of your actions through this. So on a, a more minor scale around the schools with even these serious offenses, Yeah. Sometimes this, this student may need to be removed from the school. We have to take into consideration the safety of that learning environment, the other students. But what does it look like to still use this as an opportunity to learn? What does it still look like to say, okay, even if there's an expulsion, they're gonna be coming back next year. So what does this look like to really support them in this process and not just even. The youth that was doing the the criminal act or what this was, but also the people that were affected from it the educators, their families the per se victims of a situation. What does it look like? They're all included in this process as well, to really be able to build everyone back up to as whole as possible after something takes place. Quick  Susan Stone: follow up question. Can you just give me an example and my listeners, what would that look like in a more serious case? Play it out for, What do you think, Kristina? I'm just curious what kind of offense that we deal with,  Kristina Supler: uh, a student who's selling drugs. How about something like that?  Nathan Maynard: Yep. Yep. Yeah, students selling drugs. So a situation where a student was selling drugs into a school, and let's say that they were expelled, let's say there's a zero tolerance sort of situation that happened around this. I think that when we're thinking about in that process of that expulsion, we've gotta be thinking about. The goal of restorative practices is this intrinsic motivation, right? We want to get them to understand why they're doing what they're doing and work through this, but we also have to use extrinsic factors to help get there. So if the students expelled, there would still be some sort of extrinsic factor to get them to this level of supporting. Changing and coming back into the school. So I think that even when it comes to, meeting with people that were affected from that situation, writing a letter to the school doing something proactive over the summer prior to coming back the next year, something like that where it's really building that back in. And then also when they do start back up in the school, what does it look like to give a fresh start? I think that a lot of times our mindsets go into situations and it really ends up hurting things sometimes. .  Kristina Supler: So I, I think that. Let's just play out this example of student selling drugs in school or something like that. Cause as Susan mentioned, my background's in criminal defense. And so like, when I think only as a criminal defense attorney, it's like right to me, silent, say nothing, just, you know, Absolutely no apology, no acknowledgement of harm. But as we've talked about, like at the root of restorative justice is fostering responsibility, accountability, repairing the harm, and so, how do you reconcile when you have a student going through school proceedings for behavior that might also trigger criminal charges and the school maybe. Actually does wanna use a restorative practice that it requires or ideally involves some sort of apology or acknowledgement of harm. How can you like, I don't know, meld the two together where the wrongdoer can acknowledge the harm and apologize, but then not have that? I mean, Susan, we, we see this a lot. Susan Stone: You know, I just wanna add, to give you a little more context, Nathan, sometimes we're representing students involved in sexual misconduct cases, especially in the collegiate level. And there can be a dispute as to whether the person accused agrees with the allegations. Maybe they don't. Maybe they believe they had consent. So they don't necessarily wanna apologize because they don't agree with what they're being accused of yet. There's another person on other side who's really hurting and believes. You have to believe a victim. We know that. So there's that core. And also, let's say someone's accused of rape. We know, and Kristina will say, You can't apologize because God forbid you could get charged with rape and that has consequences for imprisonment. Help us understand with that background what you would recommend.  Nathan Maynard: Yeah, and I think when it comes to, these restorative practices as a whole, The accountability comes when someone owns their behavior. So if there's something where there's still that gray line, where, the accountability may not be fully there, I feel like the the restorative approach isn't gonna be fully effective. Cuz I feel like there's gotta be something there to take responsibility for those actions. And if it's sort of the, sort of the scenarios that you were saying, I feel. Sometimes that leads to, I don't wanna say something because it could get me into more trouble, but it also, if I was, empathizing with sort of the other person, like the person that was offended or affected from the situation, like that would not be great for me to hear, for my repairing, for my situation to go through. So I think that with restorative practices, when I see it working the best is when, you know the situation is getting that full responsibility. I've had a situation before where, There was a, a youth that I was working with and, um, he did a a situation where he was 13 years old. Had a situation where he, um, raped another youth at the at it was, I forget where it was. It was somewhere at the park. There was also use of like coercion and threats. This, um, youth was placed in the Department of Corrections. When they were coming back into the community, The judge at the time, amazing judge for Tiffany New County she was talking to sort of us and going through the situation and saying like, We're really scared for this. The youth that was in Department of Corrections to come back in the community, cuz the community was really fed like it was over a year. But there was still a lot of talk about stuff. There was some gang stuff involved with it. There was a lot of stuff and they were scared. What's gonna happen when this student come or this youth comes back to community. I, I get. Yeah, and I, so I went to the Department of Corrections with them and got, I was able to get the victim's family on board to come there with me, do a restorative justice mediation. I mean, it was one of the hardest ones I've ever done. It was a really, really powerful one. It wasn't appropriate for the, the victim of that situation to be present for it, But it was very, very, very powerful, and sometimes forgiveness looks different in all situations, but what ended up happening there? We put some social capital into that relationship between the offender and the victim's families. So then when they integrated back into the community, there wasn't as much tension as what could have happened from that youth returning back to the community. Kristina Supler: It's interesting that example in particular, Nathan, it sounds like the key to effective restorative justice is having a really skilled facilitator. I mean, would you agree, Susan?  Susan Stone: I, we spent, I, I'm harkening back to 2017 when we were trained in restorative justice. And people think that it's just like mediation, which also requires skill. But I think this is even a higher level of skill because it requires a lot more pre-meeting with people, a lot more pre-planning. And I do like that your book goes into how to set up the restorative justice to be successful and thought. Should I have the victim here? Who are the other stakeholders? So I would agree. I mean  Kristina Supler: it, I guess it makes me think about though, let's, let's talk reality, Nathan. You've got a stress teacher in a classroom with some really amazing students and then some students who are real handful. And I guess my question is at times is, is restorative justice a little bit too pie in the sky? I mean, when these teachers are just trying to keep Yeah, the class under control, moving forward, check the boxes for the curriculum. In reality, are they really gonna stop the lesson? Say, Okay, students huddle up, let's, let's talk. I mean, some of this sounds very. I mean, I love it, but then I'm like, Okay, what does this look like in reality? I mean, what would, how would you poll, Is that the word? There you go.  Nathan Maynard: Yes, Pollyanna. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, so it's, it's really interesting cause that's the biggest pushback I get around these restorative practices. What does this look like when you have 30 kids and they're all doing something what are you gonna do? Like, stop the lesson, pull it out in the hallway, have a 15 minute conversation with them, resolve some sort of conflict, and that that can't happen.  So what we talk a lot about, And we go offer the research from Dr. Luke Roberts, who's a colleague of ours. And, and one of my friends he's worked outta Cambridge University and Dr. Roberts talked a lot about he actually was a nonbeliever of restorative practices. He was doing a presentation for his master's degree and talked about how restorative justice will never work in schools for that reason. Someone from Cambridge was there and they were like, Hey, Luke, come study here and let's see. You prove your point. So he's done about 10 years worth of research to show how this can be effective in the schools. And what his research shows a lot about is it's a very proactive approach about building community in your classroom. When it comes to that reactive side, what the ratio is is 80% proactive, 20% reactive around these restorative practices in schools. The, the proactive is the establishing and the feeding of relationships. And on the reactive side is the repairing of the harm and having those conversations. I've seen restorative conversations go even really quickly with teachers where it could be, I have I was in a school recently and there's a first grade teacher sort of walking this group of first or first graders down the hallway. And what happened was this one young lady looked over at the teacher and said, Hey, Brian just kicked me. And the teacher said, Well, did you like it? The young girl said, No, I didn't like it. And she said, Okay, well you need to tell him you didn't like him, and asked him not to do it again. So the little girl turned in and said, You know, I didn't like that. Please don't do that again.  That's a quick sort of conflict resolution that took, two minutes or less. Teacher didn't have to pull 'em aside, do a big conversation. So we want to teach some of these skills that are still using the restorative and that proactive approach for really building off there. Susan Stone: We are seeing a lot more students starting as early. As high school being less open to conversations and more interested in cancel culture. You hurt me. You hurt my feelings. You know what? I'm not even gonna go to the school and talk about it. I'm gonna post online what I think of you and ruin you that way. And we've seen some real repercussions recently. We've had cases where a student was accused of different Racist statements whether they made him or not, but it all went viral and college acceptances were revoked. Talk about getting canceled. How does restorative justice compare with cancel culture? Because isn't cancel culture the ultimate of logical consequences? Should it happen? Shouldn't it happen? I just want your thoughts on that.  Nathan Maynard: Yeah, I, I think cancel car culture goes against restorative practices. Because it doesn't help us seek to understand the all aspects of a situation. It pretty much just says, You did this and you're, you're not a part of this anymore. It doesn't really go, go deeper into the situation, understand the, the different factors of it. We also understand that even when it comes to ostracizing an individual, how impactful that is. Sort of human relationship development and what that looks like. So when we do something around cancel culture, it really says we're not willing to listen to things. If you do X, Y, or Z, you know, you're sort of off the table. And that's what restorative practices doesn't do. Restorative practices says people make mistakes. Some way worse than the others. We understand that, but there's needs and obligations that come out. But there's also this ability that, people can fix things to the best of their ability, even if it's not going to get them out of something. You know, Consequences are still needed. But I feel like what restorative practices does is it takes not just the logical side of consequence, but also pulls in that natural side of consequences. When I do somebody wrong and I have to sit across from them and own that with them and fix that with them, you know. That's a natural aspect. If there's something logical that takes place too, that's another piece of the puzzle. But when I'm trying to create true behavior change in someone and trying to address what's taking place, I need that natural side and that logical side. And I feel like that's what cancel culture doesn't do. You know, I might just,  Susan Stone: Well, I agree with you, but Nathan, what happens? Students get canceled before they even know that they're accused of something. The timing doesn't necessarily work. So what are you gonna do in that situation where there's been an accusation? It may or may not be accused, but the student's already been canceled. And it's out there on the internet. And it's getting thousands and thousands of likes and views. Nathan Maynard: And that type of situations are, really in sense. And I, I worked with a situation recently where it was actually, you know, I don't wanna say the state, but with an educator there, the situation happened, it was proved false, but again, it was the very much canceled culture wrong. The, the parents, the, all, every aspect of it when we were looking through that situation and trying to see what we can do to move forward. Even with this teacher they, they ended up leaving, but we were still looking at the community as a whole. What restorative practices does too is says it's not just this restoring and repairative stuff, it's also facilitating open dialogue and communication around situations and letting all sides be heard in something. I think a lot of times we hear the voices of whoever's in the most power. Right. And that might be in whatever situation. That's true.  Susan Stone: Oh my gosh. Can I write that down? Yeah. We share the voices of the MO ones in most power. In a school community, who would that be?  Nathan Maynard: A lot of times it's the it's the it could be the board, it could be sort of leadership there in the building on that sort of more micro level, but, on that sort of community as a whole sometimes too it goes with, whoever's got, cuz we understand there's systemic issues within our societies, so sometimes it's people of priviledge that gets their stuff out there a little bit more as well. There's a lot of different things that go into it. And what restorative practices says is we're not gonna put anyone up here on the top of this triangle. We're gonna do everything as a circle and put everyone on the sort of the same page, be heard, be listened to, and we set guidance. We set collective commitments to each other. That what we talk about, what we don't talk about, and really facilitate this as an open dialogue. And there's so much learning that happens from that. When we can have conversations where everyone's able to discuss things and be heard and be a part of something, you know it, it leads to less sort of social media pushing and sort of our keyboard warriors right there in our instant gratification society, right? It, it helps saying we need to own this stuff with other people. And again, it's a natural thing as well to sit across from someone, talk something out, build something up and move forward. And it's really easy to set those conversations up. Cuz we don't want them to turn into complaining sessions or, or everyone's sort of vs. In a hive and. We need this person out.  You set norms ahead of time. When those norms aren't followed, you redirect. And if that doesn't work, you can sort of end the circle. You can bring different people out. But you know, those circles were designed looking at the roots from the indigenous cultures to make sure that we're all addressing things as a whole. And I think restorative practices really gives us that.  Kristina Supler: It's interesting, this discussion of cancel culture. It makes me think about, because really cancel culture is the antithesis of restorative justice, right? But it makes me think about chapter seven in the book, which is entitled, Cultivate Empathy, Build the Capacity to Listen, understand and communicate. And you talk about how empathy is a skill that's learned and practiced, but How do you foster empathy in reality? I'm I'd like to hear your thoughts on what that looks like.  Nathan Maynard: Yeah. I think to foster empathy, we need to be a good listener. We a good reflective listener and really hearing different people. I think a lot of times when we're trying to be empathetic, we're still pulling in our own perspectives, our rich tapestry of life events that we, you know, go into something and when we really don't put ourselves in check. What ends up happening is we're not fostering true empathy. We're fostering empathy through our perspective. So when we're trying to foster empathy, the biggest investing that we can do is just be a good listener and, and hear people for what we're asking. Ask good, open ended questions. Use good, effective eye statements, reflect back and just really putting 'em back on the other person. That's also how you build good relationships too, right? You hear people from where  Kristina Supler: they're at. So true. It's so true, and it's interesting to think about how these. Tenants of restorative justice actually applied to basically just being a good human being and developing good interpersonal skills. Yes. But let me just ask you one follow up question related to empathy, because with particularly through the pandemic, we've seen such a surge in depression and anxiety among students, and when you have a particularly anxious student and you're trying to foster empathy, how do you. Teach the student to be empathetic, but also not take on someone else's problems as their own. Because I think that's a real challenge, especially for younger students.  Nathan Maynard: Yeah, so I like, I like to look at the applied neuroscience of regulation. A lot of times when we're going into even being a good listener or going through these different skills, when I have a student and they are hyper aroused, they're, moving around. This teacher hates me or this situation's happening they're hyper aroused. I know. My job is to get them back into a window of tolerance. If they're hypo aroused, they're lethargic, withdrawn, not speaking to me. I know I need to get them up a level before I get them into that sort of window of tolerance. Everything that I'm going to be saying and what I'm gonna be processing is going to be through this lens of safety, right? We know that amygdala might be triggered, they might be looking at things as this fight, flight, or freeze response. So if we want to be looking and really building this up from not putting this happened when I was younger, this situation happened. We need to sensor ourselves first and then deliver that. And that's why we have that chapter in the book too. Cuz you know the, the book's not just a guide for restorative practices. It's really this way that what Brad and I saw worked for us as practitioners, as, as educators, as youth workers.  Susan Stone: Well, I have to tell you, you are speaking our language when you talk about this. Kristina and I both love practicing yoga and we've actually worked ourselves. Mm-hmm. on being less reactive. We both have very strong personalities. It's true. We're both, I would say alpha females trying to work together. And the way we have done a lot of personal work is through getting control of our stress response. However, kids, it's really difficult with kids. So what do you do? I mean, you can't restrain them. Yeah, you can't. I, we've dealt with straining an elopement cases where kids just literally run out of the school building. And anyone who's a parent has seen a young child tantrum and anyone who's a parent who's had teenagers has watched the 16 year old tantrum. So can you play it out how you get them in that zone of control?  Nathan Maynard: And it, there's a lot of different, ways to get there. I think the best thing too is just being a really aware of nonverbals, verbals, what's taking place. I think a lot of times the easiest way to co-regulate or regulate someone is co-regulation, looking at the way that we are aiming ourselves. You know, Dr. Bruce Perry said, A dysregulated adult can never regulate a dysregulated child. So making sure that we're Oh my gosh. So true. Yep. We're regulating. Yeah. And, and going into those situations. And then what we can do in there is we can really show how this is, if there's situations. Let's say like my son's worked up or my girlfriend's worked up over a situation and I go and I say, Calm down, calm down, Calm down. That's not going to work. What I'm gonna, That's the amount of fire . Yeah, yeah, that's, Yeah. It's just, Yeah. Calm down. Yeah. Yeah. And, yep. And you know, and that's not gonna work. You know what ends up happening is you gotta hear the person. You've gotta co-regulate with them. And then, then when they're open to it, that's when you can help suggesting, Hey, let's take a couple deep breaths before we continue this on. Hey, let's go for a walk. Let's not talk about this for a couple minutes. Or, I, if my son's, disregulated, he's running around the room and doing something, you know, my biggest goal is to be a safe person. And I don't try to force compliance on things. If I try to force compliance on things, that creates more dysregulation, because that's more of a safety thing. When we are in our fight, flight or freeze response, when that amygdala is triggered the thing our brain students say, Stay safe. So when someone's saying, Don't stay safe. Sit down. Stop talking. Do this. You know, our brain's saying no. And we get more opposition. When, when we start to feel blame and shame over a situation, we more triggers come out. So the easiest thing is just to be a good listener. Look around. See what's taken place. And then co-regulate them with, the way that supports safety at the center of sort of it.  Kristina Supler: I wanna talk about in chapter four of the book, you talk or you delve into this idea of establishing clear expectations versus rules. And I guess my question for you, I, I think I understand what you're getting at, but is, is this just semantics or like what's really at the heart of that notion.  Nathan Maynard: Yeah, so a little bit of semantics. A little bit of that because we understand how powerful our verbal and nonverbal skills are, how that can trigger a situation or, or make it better. We also know that kids love to gamify processes, right? They love to gamify systems. There's been situation where I said, Hey, you know, I've heard teachers say, butts and seats, and then you see a kid, holding their chair and walking across the classroom, right? Like, my butt's still in seat. That's funny. Yeah, and it's, it's funny and it's good, but it's exhausting for teachers, right? Cause then they're like, Come on. Like it might be funny the first two times. But then 15 times when you have all these kindergartners starting to do it. Like, come on now. So what expectations does, it makes our redirections easier if we say, Be responsible. I can link that into anything. And then I'm teaching what be responsible is a lot of times our kids that we work with, they may be able to normalize their emotions and normalize sort of situations and sometimes they can't. So what we wanna do with our expectations is it helps sort of us coach on that social emotional development as well as it makes our job easier because then our redirections are less of a gamified process. Susan Stone: We are now seeing a serious uptick and unhappy kids, unhappy families, and extreme mental health disorders. We've had kids tell us that they have thought about suicide. We've dealt with cutting. We've dealt with obviously substance abuse and in turn, when we're working with the parents of our clients, cuz we represent kids. We can tell that they're depressed and they're exhausted and they're depleted. So could you give Kristina and I a little tip when we're trying, should we use a restorative practice also, when trying to help students and get in a framework where they do have to respond to a disciplinary process? Nathan Maynard: Yeah, I, and I think when we start to see situations occur and some of those, really concerning things, I think a lot of times we go into things as, I, I know my downfall is I'm a problem solver, so I try to solve problems, right? I go into situations of, Oh, you're cutting, you're depressed. Hey, go for a walk. Hey, use this affirmation. Hey, try to do this, Talk to these different people. But what ends up happening is I don't respect someone by doing that, I, I'm showing them. My knowledge is more respectful than what you're going through. I know more than you. We're thinking about talking to our younger kiddos. You know, my six year old son or, or kindergartners, pre-K schools, they still are able to connect the dots. We have to help them connect the dots in situations and be truly heard. That's why I love, even cognitive dissonance. When you're thinking about pairing, behaviors to goals and having them connect the dots. When you're dealing with some of these different concerns, a lot of times the brain starts to make connections that might be there, or the brain makes connections that is. But either way, we wanna respect those connections and help them work through that situation instead of just commanding over it compliance based over it. And again, that's what restorative tells us to do, is to be a good listener to, to ask those questions, go through, connect the dots with them through that cognitive distance process. Kristina Supler: Well, it makes me think about looping back to something you said earlier, trying to develop intrinsic motivation using external factors. Yeah. So I, I think that's sort of at the heart of this also, this idea of being a good listener. Helping work through an issue versus trying to troubleshoot right out of the gates. But Nathan, this has been such a really enjoyable and thought provoking discussion today, so I hate to wrap it up, but this is life. Let me ask you before we go, is there anything we haven't touched on today that you think is important to share with our  Nathan Maynard: listeners? I mean, I think the biggest thing around these restorative practices and restorative justice, We want to look at all perspectives of situations. We want to, again, we wanna change things, right? Like if we see something happening, we see something in our class happening, something in our society happening. We want things to change. And we need to think about outside of our box, outside of our sort of fixed mindsets, what we grew up with, what we believe works, whatever this is, and be open to different things. I tell so many future practitioners or educators that are looking at this. Try one thing. See if it gives a. Give it a chance. If you need to make small iterations in it, that's completely cool, but give something a chance. And I think that a lot of times we stamp something as, Oh, this restorative stuff is no consequences. Or it's soft con, you know, soft discipline and it's not able to be given a chance.  Susan Stone: Well, you know what, Nathan? I do wanna say something to you and to Kristina. I think I was right that this is one of the best podcasts we we've ever had.  Kristina Supler: I agree.  Susan Stone: I agree. . Really? I, I, I, Listeners, I wish you could see Nathan smiling. Because we, I really feel like we could have stayed here an hour more. I wanted to talk about growth mindset. There's so much packed into your book, Hacking School Discipline: Nine Ways to Create a Culture of Empathy and Responsibility using Restorative Justice. We didn't get a chance to talk about your app and your other business. So we might have to do a part two on this  Nathan Maynard: podcast for sure. Yeah, and I'm sure Brad would love to be a part of that.     

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Philip van Guilder, a Director of Greenhouse Treatment Center's Community Affairs.  They discuss mental health and addiction issues in students.  The conversation includes the unexpected patterns of addiction and mental health issues prevalent is students today how to identify and address the symptoms of addictive behavior, and what every parent needs to know about the treatment and prevention of mental health and addiction issues. Links Mentioned In the Show: KJK Student Defense Show Notes: (01:37) From personally going through addiction to becoming a mental health evangelist  (02:44) The stigma against mental health and addiction issues versus the Greenhouse Treatment Center: how they can help children and adults in 28 days (03:17) What makes the Greenhouse Treatment Center different from most other kinds of hospitals (04:57) Why parents now need to monitor their children for addiction issues as early as the 7th grade  (06:30) Marijuana and the serious damage it can do to a child's developing brain, including psychosis (07:40) Why children can get access to drugs from the comfort of their own home (08:58) The warning signs of addictive behavior in children that every parent should be aware of (09:36) One way in which parents and college faculty can curb the onset of addiction issues in students  (11:17) The severe and sometimes fatal consequences of overindulgence in alcohol and drugs in college students  (12:34) The science behind why compulsive addictive behavior takes place (15:02) The battle of alcohol addiction and sobriety from a first-hand perspective (16:26) Mind vs. Body: Sticking to the path of sobriety (17:57) The ongoing stigma against those with mental health issues (19:44)  The best approach to addressing a simultaneous mental health and addiction challenge in college students (22:19) Can someone just have a naturally addictive personality?  (24:12) The prevalence of alcohol inhalation and why it's a symptom of addiction (25:38) The relationship between alcohol/drug disorders and eating orders in patients (26:45) The easy steps parents can take to protect their kids and their friends from mental health and/or addiction issues  Transcript: Kristina Supler: So here at Real Talk, we're committed to educating our listeners about substance abuse and safety measures that parents and students should know about. On a past episode of Real Talk, we were pleased to have on as a guest, Dr. Beth Weinstock of the Birdie Light organization, whose mission is really to spread information about test strips. And we're so pleased to have our guests today.  Susan Stone: We are going to talk to Philip van Guilder, Guilder. I'm sorry. Do you pronounce it? Guilder? Phil Philip. Philip Van Guilder: I do. Yes. Susan Stone: I, I have my tongue twisted today, Kristina. And he is a self-described mental health evangelist at the Greenhouse Treatment Center. And I wanna add a father of five, uh, Philip, without speaking out of turn, you indicated in our pre-chat that you had some addiction issues. And so did your children and for our listeners out there who are mainly parents of high school and college age students, I think your insight is gonna be invaluable. And just add on our last podcast with podcast with Dr. Weinstock so could, before we begin, can you tell us what is a mental health evangelist? I, I saw that and I'm like, are you religious? Where are you coming from? Philip Van Guilder: No, no, it has nothing to do with spirituality. Uh, actually the, the evangelist is a, it pulls me away from the marketing aspects. I, what I'm trying to do and what I do for the greenhouse is make us as transparent to the outside community as possible and make the outside community as transparent to the personnel here as possible.  So we can maximize all the resources available and, and we can normalize the stigma of, of mental health issues and, and addiction so that it encourages people to, uh, just to normalize it so that people can get help and, and not feel any sort of a stigma. So I kind of wear my recovery on my sleeve. I mean, if you were to meet me on the street, we were having coffee bumped into each other within about two or three minutes somehow or another, I would word it that you would know. I was a person in long term recovery.  Kristina Supler: Philip, you are at Greenhouse Treatment Center, which is a part of the American Addiction Center. Tell us, what's give us some insight into the population that you work with on a daily basis. And what do you do?  Susan Stone: Tell us what I, I wanna learn about you.  Philip Van Guilder: Okay, thank you. So, so our population is 18 and above, and there are people who primary, uh, diagnosis is substance use. What, what I do, as I said, I reach out to the community. We wanna know what resources are out there. When you come to treatment, whether you're, uh, going to treatment as it, a young adult, or whether you're going to treatment as a, as a child, whatever age you're going to treatment. The 28 days today, which is about what most people can, can, uh, expect to get from their insurance. That's the first step. Uh, we're a hospital. Uh, most hospitals you go to when you go to the hospital, you get medicine, you get a cast, you you're injuries are, are stitched up. And when you leave, you're, you're virtually on your way to, to recovery.  This hospital is different. What we do here is we give you information and, and when you leave, what you do with that information determines whether or not you're gonna get well, we don't. And so this is just the first step of your recovery process. So when, so for us, it's important for us to connect with the community because we expect to take the patient, the client from the 28 days and send them to someone else for the next level of care, which is a, um, perhaps partial partial hospitalization, which is the same as all day programming, but not in a hospital setting or intensive outpatient, I O P, which is, number of hours each day, allowing them to work, but continuing their recovery journey or, or even perhaps, uh, as complete step down to continuing care where they show up for a group, uh, once a week or once a month for continuing care. Susan Stone: It's such a long process to recovery. I really, I admire anybody who has the courage to go through it. You talked about working with students 18 and above. Tell us what insights do you have today on young adults battling with addiction, anything different, new,  Kristina Supler: or what's the most prevalent form of addiction you're seeing. Susan Stone: Oh, great question, Kristina.  Philip Van Guilder: yeah, that, that is a good question. Yeah. What, what we're seeing today is it starts much younger. So by the time we see an 18 year old, they've been involved in, in some of the statistics, I can show, go back to the seventh and eighth grade and it was, and, and, and with alcohol  Susan Stone: or drugs, seventh or eighth grade,  Philip Van Guilder: Both and with non-prescribed medications and, and, and I, some statistics as recently as 2020, just from this area, we're, we're in, we're just would be the same as any area.  30% of 10th graders, 30% of 10th graders either found it, not dangerous to use marijuana. And yet we know the THC content of marijuana today is so high, that, that it can be very destructive in young developing minds and 30%. So fully, a third of 10th graders believe it's safe to use marijuana. Susan Stone: Well, if it's legal in some states, how would parents dispel that belief?  Kristina Supler: Well, I will say in a past episode, we had on Dr. Jill Grimes and who's written a book for college audiences and she is a big believer that it is essential that parents educate their children. That marijuana is harmful no matter what anyone thinks, if it's legalized or not, it does things to developing brains and students need to be aware of the negative impact on brain develop. Philip Van Guilder: Yeah. I mean, there's, there's no doubt about that. So, so let's go back 30, 40 years ago when the THC was three to 4% and, people, perhaps college age experimented with it, maybe they even used it frequently, but it's still three to 4% today. We see pure, uh, marijuana. 18 to 20% and in a developing brain, we're seeing cases of psychosis in 16 year olds, first time use, and we're talking some serious damage. And we know that well, first of all, , and it is not to, it's not to beat up on young people, but. If a little is good, a lot is better. So there is no moderation when we're looking see another thing I've got here. One in five eighth graders believe that it's that's 20, 20% to almost 21% of eight graders. Believe it's okay to use non-prescribed medications because of the way it makes you feel. not just marijuana, but we're talking about people that walk up to the medicine cabinet and grab some, uh, mood altering medication and think it's safe to use a non-prescribed medication. Susan Stone: It's right in the home. Philip Van Guilder: That, that they get out of the medicine cabinet because their parents are taking it on a prescribed basis for the right reasons and they believe it's okay. And it's safe. They believe it's safe, not just okay, but safe to use it because it's after all it's a prescribed medication. Prescribed for someone else. Kristina Supler: Sure. Well, and also, I think we'd be remiss not to mention that with marijuana in this day and age, there's also all the risks. As in that we don't know what marijuana or, or other street drugs could be laced with.  Susan Stone: Right. And I, I was thinking one of the questions I wanted you to opine about is. How, if you're in college and you're drinking or occasionally using recreational drugs, how would a student know if what they're doing is within that normal college range versus heading to addiction? What is the line between, okay. You're just having fun in college, a recreational user recreational user, between or. You need to get help. Is it grade slipping, loss of friendships? What are your thoughts?  Philip Van Guilder: so I don't wanna be vague about this, but let's, let's go back to what we mean by addictive behavior. When it's compulsive, when I have no choice, but to use.  When it's no longer a matter of it was socially fun, but when I have to use in order to feel normal. So what is it like for any, for everybody it's that day when you wake up and you say, you know, I can't face the day without a drink or I can't face the day without first lighting up a blunt or I can't face the day without getting a rig and loading it. That's the day when it's gone too far. In fact, one of the newest organizations that we've seen start off in the last, I would say, I want to, and I'm guessing at this, maybe the last four or five years is young people in recovery on college campuses. We're starting to see a real big push for that because they're not learning how to use in college. They're bringing the addiction to college with them.  And so a number of places and, and there's a number of campuses around the country. Arizona was one of the first universities in Tempe was one of the first universities to have a young people on campus. I'm not trying to promote them, but they're just, I just remember meeting some folks that had come out to, to, to bring that template to other campuses around the DFW area. And, and it seemed like people were gravitating towards it because they realized they had a problem. Now that's, I don't know, that's just taken off, but I know that today, when I'm talking to a young person, that's worried about going to school. Like I'm, I'm about a young 18 year old yesterday in a meet last night in a meeting. And he said, he's starting on campus. So small. And I was able to direct him to a young people's group on the local university campus. So it was kind of nice to see him. Know that there's a safe place for him to go. He's been struggling since January of this year. It was kind of nice.  Susan Stone: Do you think it's gotta be very lonely to be a college student today in a fraternity or on a sports team and have to say I don't drink. I don't, I'm an addict. Yeah. I, I can't imagine the shame, but you know, Kristina, we've had a lot of friends tell us, they're now sober curious. Mm-hmm , you know,  Kristina Supler: A question I had for you, Philip, Susan and I working with students across the country day in and day out. We, every day we're hearing terms like blackout, brown out, gray out and, and. Binge drinking has, has really seems been, been normalized.  Susan Stone: We've seen deaths.  Kristina Supler: Yeah, actually we've had a couple different cases with a death component and it's an absolute tragedy. What are your thoughts on why. Students are indulging, whether it's alcohol or drugs to such extremes now. Do you think it's the influence of social media? Is it the pandemic in mental health? Or, I mean, working with populations at Greenhouse, do you have any insights?  Susan Stone: Yeah, I was gonna say, Kristina, you know, we dealt with that one case where students drink whole bottles of alcohol. And I, I have to tell you, I don't remember that. Did you have that at college?  Kristina Supler: I mean, it certainly seems that in the news, there's more reports about fraternity hazing in, in student let's just say excess. And I don't know if it's because it's going on with greater frequency or just the media and other professionals are trying to bring more awareness so that students can be safe. But Philip, what are your thoughts?  Philip Van Guilder: I really, I don't think someone says, uh, this is the weekend I wanna binge. You get there with that compulsive addictive behavior. It there's it's if you're truly let's use alcohol, let me separate that from other other drugs. Let's just use alcohol. We know that medically there's a craving component that comes people that are, that, that are alcoholics typically. If we look at the medical, uh, component, it says that we're not able to process or metabolize alcohol at the same rate of non-alcoholic is. Whereas a non-alcoholic can process about one ounce per hour. We can't, we're missing certain components, genetically that keep us, or prevent us from being able to do that. So if we drink more than one ounce per hour, and what happens because we, we retain the alcohol in our system longer because we can't metabolize it. We can't discharge it. It kicks off the craving. So the more we drink, the more we crave that's  Kristina Supler: oh, that's interesting. Philip Van Guilder: That's medical thing, whereas you might drink one ounce per hour. By the time you get to the second or third one, you're going, uh, oh, I got a buzz. I'm sitting here thinking man, I need to have some more. I don't have a buzz. Like I want the buzz. You considered something that makes you uncomfortable and I considered something that's necessary. Susan Stone: So that's why all of a sudden they're craving, craving, craving these students. And then all of a sudden blackout.  Philip Van Guilder: Yeah. Yeah, because the more they drink, the more they crave, I mean, at midnight, Joe and Charlie, talk about this two wonderful people that are in recovery that, that are both passed now, but that, that have the thing they took about at midnight. After I've been drinking all night long. And I pass out in, the the parking lot of a, of a bar and I get run over by a car and you come over to help me. And the first thing I say is, when you say, what can I do to help you? And I say, oh my God, get me a drink. Like I still haven't had enough. That for me, the cravings kicked off at two o'clock in the morning. My craving, my desire for alcohol is so much greater than it was when I started. Cuz I didn't have a craving until I put alcohol in my body. That initiated the craving. Hmm. The more, the more I crave  Susan Stone: I'm sorry, gotta ask. I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. Um, oh, but does the craving ever go away or do you just learn to live with the learn to manage it? Philip Van Guilder: Yeah. So, so that goes to the second component. It's the obsession of the mind coupled with the allergy of the body. If I don't put the alcohol on my body, I cannot kick off the craving. And what happens is after some period of time, I go, well, you know, I haven't had a drink in three weeks. Uh, I'm probably not that bad. It I'm just gonna have one. And so I played this game that says I'm just gonna have one because it's been a while since I've kicked off the craving. The moment I put the alcohol in my body, I kick off the craving. I'm back in this cycle again. And I wake up once again in a, in, in the next day. I can't tell you what happened the night before. And, and once again, I'm gonna swear off alcohol forever.  Kristina Supler: so with a long, let's just say, for example, a long stint of sobriety from, from any substance alcohol or drug drugs, if an individual has been sober for let's just say five years, does it get easier as time passes or do you still really have to be focused and dedicated to sobriety? Philip Van Guilder: Right. So I, I wouldn't speak for others each journey's individual, but for the people that I've been around, the people that I hang out with, I'm sober coming up on just about 19 years. As I said to you earlier, I met a young man at a meeting last night. I go to meetings frequently. Mm-hmm , uh, two or three times a week. Cuz I have a disease that tells me I don't have a disease. So for me, the easiest thing for me to do, cuz I used to spend all my time thinking about drinking. If I didn't, if I wasn't thinking about it, I was drinking. Today it's a few hours. I spend a few moments each morning, starting my day. A little prayer meditation, trying to connect with the power greater than myself and, and do meetings and do service work, carry the message to others. But the only time I think about drinking is I go to a meeting that I am meeting a newcomer that's talking about drinking. I don't think about it. But that's my disease. so my disease is sitting there on my shoulder. Disease's telling you,  Kristina Supler: you don't have a disease. I've never, I don't that way.  Susan Stone: Interesting. See, that's an incredible thought that the difference between your disease and let's say, God forbid someone with cancer is someone with cancer doesn't say I don't have cancer. But someone with alcoholism says, I don't have it. That's incredible. I wanna shift gears a little bit because Kristina and I work with students with mental health challenges, other mental health challenges. And we know you do too. As you call yourself a mental health evangelist. And we see you've done a lot of work with the stigma associated with mental health issues. We've come a long way, our society as a whole de-stigmatizing mental health issues. But I'd like to know from your perspective, what do you think today remains as a stigma? If anything, or do you think it, the stigma's gone? Philip Van Guilder: Oh, uh, no, the stigma's there. Until you have a loved one, that's struggling. It'll you said it, let's talk about substance use or we'll talk about mental health, even mental health issues. We're still the bottom feeders of diseases. I mean, if you tell somebody you got cancer, they're out there having a parade to raise money, to help you with your treatment.  You tell somebody that you've got a mental health issue or you're a, you're an alcoholic and they're gonna change seats so that they don't catch it. we're talking about it openly now. But that doesn't take it away because until it's actually a part of your family, or until you have a neighbor or until you have a loved one or until, you know, someone on a personal level until that happens, it's just a, a terrible thing that, that, that happens to other people. And I don't wanna be around them because they're mentally not right.  Kristina Supler: Sure. Or, or it's a theoretical issue. That's, you know, a lack of discipline that right. Wouldn't happen in my family. My kids wouldn't succumb to that. So let me ask you on this topic of mental health and substance abuse, how much more difficult if at all, is it to, to treat substance abuse when there's other mental health issues present? Or is it sort of the same approach to treatments regardless of anxiety, depression and other comorbidities?  Susan Stone: That's a good question. And also we know a lot of students with mental health issues have to take medications like Ritalin. Or Adderall or they can't function and learn. But if there's also an addiction issue, I also always wondered, oh my gosh, that's really complicated.  Philip Van Guilder: This is a tough one because we, we have to stabilize the mental health component before you can treat the addiction. What comes first? I mean, oftentimes the addiction was their solution for their perceived problem. It's really tough, but you gotta do 'em. They both have to be done together. But you can't treat the, the addiction. If you're not treating the mental health component and, and you can, and, and it's gotta be done in conjunction with one another.  If they're acute before you can treat the addiction, you have to help them get stabilized because you can't begin to pay attention. Remember I told you we're transferring knowledge to an individual. If the individual can't sit still and can't regulate, we can't transfer that knowledge. So now we've gotta find a place for them to go where they can be stabilized. So, so that they can be okay in their own skin. It mean when you see certain people with certain mental health issues, they're climbing out of their skin. The last thing is they your solution, right? We can't take away your solution because you just you're already climbing outta your own skin.  Susan Stone: Yeah. You know, it's so interesting because Kristina and I will often have to have students get ready for their interview or for a hearing. And we will notice that if there's a student and they have not taken their, let's say medication for whatever issue that's going on. It is very hard for us to work with those students because they're literally, they can't focus and they're fidgeting.  Philip Van Guilder: Yeah. I mean, what a dilemma. And then if it's addictive behavior, let's just say we, so let's say that they're, they're, they're normal. They're regulated. And then let's say we've got 'em to where they're not. The alcohol or the, the drug component is manageable. Suddenly their sex addiction takes off. Mm. Or,  Kristina Supler: or we get this so interesting that you bring that up because we, we see that in, in so many of our cases where the addiction is perhaps a coping mechanism for other underlying mental health issues. And sometimes one, addiction just sort of trades out for another. And so let me ask you, is it true that there is such thing as an addictive personality? Someone who's just naturally, whether it's baseball cards, coffee, substances, they, if they do something once they just really like it and they're all in and everything is to excess. Philip Van Guilder: Well, I, I don't think, I, I think I'd leave that to the medical community, but, but I would say this, I think it's possible to have addicted behavior as opposed to addicted personality. Going to what you were saying, I mean, now we get the sex addiction under control. We get the, the alcohol addiction into control that we are regulated and suddenly we're sitting at the casino gambling. Or we're or we're online shopping with Amazon, whatever it is.  Kristina Supler: Or overeating  Susan Stone: or overeating or food or over exercising or over, over, over, but over. Yeah. Is it, is it it's actually an addictive personality or is it a sign of just some other emotional need to fill a space or a void?  Philip Van Guilder: Uh, once again, I think I have to go to defer to the medical community as the causation. Susan Stone: You know, we're gonna have to explore this more in our podcast, Kristina, and I wanna switch gears because I was reading a little bit about you to get ready. And I noticed that you also talk about eating disorders and I'm 56. And when I went to college, I knew many, many, many students who suffered from bulimia or anorexia.  And as also a mother who has raised and is raising daughters. I don't see the eating disorders as being as prevalent. And in fact, I see a lot more body positivity, uh, but I see more cutting mm-hmm a different type of, uh, form of control or relieving of mental health issues. And I just wanna know what your thoughts are on the topic of eating disorders versus cutting versus trichotillomania, which is the hair pulling hair. Philip Van Guilder: They're all symptomatic and, and indicative of someone that's ill. And eating disorders probably. And I've gotta be careful for all my friends in the eating disorder community that I love all the professionals, uh, because I I'm around so many experts and I don't perceive myself to be an expert. But I'm someone that's passionate about it because I see it as a very common trait. I remember at one point about 10 years ago, one of the big things going on, you were talking about college and it was mostly college. It was, it was sororites. So it was mostly the female side. But there was this, uh, ability to inhale alcohol and women were, uh, using these and, uh, there was using like, humidifiers. And they would adjust alcohol that way to, to, to minimize the amount of weight they put on by consuming alcohol. So they could get the effect of being's drunk it's they could get the effect of being drunk, but they wouldn't add weight. Yeah. Do you, so, and there's a, there's a name for it and I can't remember now, but we had a real rash of that I'm gonna say this about 10 years ago. Where we, that was the big thing on college campuses especially for sororities. They would have these parties where they would inhale through these misters alcohol. So they wouldn't gain weight. Very prevalent.  Susan Stone: Hm. So what are you seeing now? That's coming in in terms of eating disorders in your centers.  Philip Van Guilder: Especially here at the greenhouse, we're, we're screening for it because it's, if, if you've got an alcohol or a drug disorder, you're very high on the spectrum of of possibilities of the eating disorder. And, and in fact, we see quite a bit of that, uh, So it I'm getting the problem here. It says I should dial in. I'm not sure if that's correct. No, you're okay. Okay. So, all right, I'm sorry. I just got a warning and I I's sure, like NASA we're like about to do a launch. That's  Susan Stone: what makes this a real podcast? Philip is that I start with the tongue twister, you get a tech warning and that's what makes our listeners know that is not scripted or canned and that we're being authentic here. That's  Philip Van Guilder: right. Oh, I love it. That's great.  Kristina Supler: Last question, Phillip, what is the best piece of advice that you can offer for our parent listeners out there in terms of what they should talk to their students about before heading off to college in the fall, or  Susan Stone: even on summer break right now? Kristina Supler: Yeah, actually that you're so right. Susan.  Philip Van Guilder: Every parent, whether you see any sort of behavior, not statistically, your child is either connected with addictive behavior doing it themselves, or they know someone that is. But, but you've gotta start talking to 'em about resources, about no shame and ask, just talking about it, just being open about it. We never talked about it and, uh, I remember, um, Uh, and this is part of my background many years ago. The way I got involved with eating disorders is I was on the board of directors of a ballet company in California. And I would listen to the artistic director line, the young people up, and we're talking young 12, 13, 14 year old students. And she would call him, she would say, you're all fat. And I would ask friends of mine. I, I, it didn't seem to me that that was appropriate. And I would say to people that, that, that doesn't seem like a very nice way to treat young people. That's what I thought. That's just not a nice thing to say. And they would say yes, but you understand she's a balanchine. She loves slender dancers. And I would go, oh, okay. Not realizing how much damage was being done by these statements by this adult, to these 12 and 13 and 14 year olds. That goes on today. We allow kids to make fun of other kids based on their body the, the visibility, and, and instead of being body beautiful. It's like every advertisement today is still around slender body types. It's rare that we see a commercial with real people. And so I, I guess going back to your question, what are for adults, let's just talk about it. Let's just have a discussion about it. Let's just make it safe for people to come to us and chat with us about things they don't understand. Susan Stone: Well, and we are so lucky that you came here to chat with us on Real Talk with Susan and Kristina. Because that's what the goal of our podcast is. We  Kristina Supler: always want to encourage parents to have open dialogue with their students about any topic, drugs, sex, alcohol, disabilities, stress management. Our goal is just to promote wellness for the student population. So we're so pleased that you were able to. Today. Thank you.  Philip Van Guilder: Thank you. Thank you both very much. It was a pleasure to be here, right? Excited to be with you guys and exciting for what you're doing. Thank you. 

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Dr. Michael C. Reichert, an Executive Director of the Center for the Study of Boys and Girls at the University of Pennsylvania and a Supervising Psychologist at the Haverford School.  They discuss how to raise boys.  The conversation includes how Dr. Reichert pioneered a groundbreaking discovery about boys and the key to their learning, why time and society along with it has revolutionized gender stereotypes and the fundamentals of raising a boy that every parent should know. Links Mentioned In the Show: KJK Student Defense Dr. Michael Reichert's Website https://www.michaelcreichert.com  Show Notes: (03:11) A shocking commonality that Dr. Reichert and Niobe Way discovered about boys and their relationships (03:37) How a theory of voice education was pioneered (04:04) The essential factor required for boys to engage in learning  (04:42) A shocking finding about boys and relationships that baffled even educational and psychological veterans with 50 years of experience combined (07:22) Transformative relationships: do boys become too dependent on their friends? (08:00) How culture and society has caused the context of title IX cases involving males to evolve over time. (09:40) How Kristina and Susan utilized their certification in restorative justice as a means of conflict resolution (11:14)  Why masculinity has historically grown to be weaponized involving title IX cases  (12:38) The turning point of society: finally acknowledging the humanity of males (17:07) Breaking the stereotype: the shift in parenting and their expectations from their male children (21:32) What every parent, particularly mothers, needs to do for their sons before sending them off to college and throughout it.  (22:10) Why the, “Mama's Boy Myth,” has been busted.  (23:58) What every single mom raising a son needs to bear in mind (25:00) We are living in the era of redefining emotional strength Transcript: Susan Stone: Today's podcast, Kristine and I are going to, again, explore how to raise boys. Now I know you guys out there who pay attention to our podcast are wondering didn't you just do that with Niobi Way talk about boys. Didn't we?  Kristina Supler: We did. But you know, we've really had the pleasure of reading quite a few books recently on this topic. And given that in our law practice, while we represent male and female students, we tend to see and deal with cases with boys mostly.  Susan Stone: Yeah. I mean, you have to wonder, especially in hazing cases we represent mm-hmm fraternity members. We have never met, represented a, a sorority sister.  Kristina Supler: Not true. We have, what did don't forget that? Oh, you did.  Susan Stone: oh my gosh. Showing my age, showing my age. Kristina Supler: But you are correct in that 99.9% of the time, our hazing cases are male students.  Susan Stone: Yeah, thanks for calling me out there. That's awesome. But why don't you introduce our speaker? That is your job.  Kristina Supler: Today, we are joined by Michael Reichert, who is a psychologist who has worked in a variety of clinical school, community and research settings over the course of his career. He serves as the executive director of the center for the study of boys and girls lives a research collaborative at the University of Pennsylvania. And he is also a supervising psychologist at the Haverford school, which is outside of Philadelphia. Susan Stone: Very pretty area, Kristina and I were there gorgeous  Kristina Supler: area, gorgeous, fine institutions in that area of the country. Michael has writing has been published in many prominent. Periodicals the Atlantic New York times, Washington post. And today he's joining us to discuss his book, entitled how to raise a boy, the power of connection to build. Good men. Welcome.  Welcome. So we're gonna start with the first question, Michael, in how to raise a boy, you address society's narrow conception of what it means to be a real boy. We had Niobe Way author of Deep Secrets. Talk about how boys crave real friendships, which fade over time as boys hit their teenage years. Can you add anything else to that concept and maybe give us a fresh look about boys, maybe something we don't know about them, even though you guys are 50% of the population. Dr. Michael Reichert: good morning, Christina. Good morning, Susan. thank you for having me. And I'm glad to be here and, and particularly glad to be following my good friend and colleague Niobe. You know, um, I was talking with Niobe recently and we were, we're getting ready to host a webinar. We began the conversation with each other, talking about what has surprised us in our research. What led us to the positions that were, were both in respectively and Niobe's way Niobe's study was about friendship and what she discovered that surprised her was that boys indeed have tremendously intimiate relationships with each other relationships that they would die without they feel my research that, that wound up in a very similar destination came from a very different source. I investigated teaching and learning in schools around the world. and we began our large scale survey, 18 countries, 1500 boys ages 12 to 19, and about a thousand of their teachers. And we asked a very simple question. We asked what's worked, trying to build a theory of voice education inductively from the ground up. And what we found was completely unexpected. Not mentioned at all by the teachers that we interview, we, we surveyed and interviewed, came exclusively from the boys themselves. And essentially what the boys said was we depend upon a connection with our teacher or our coach in order to engage in learning. The vulnerable act of learning from somebody requires that we believe this person cares about us and wants to help. now my part, my research partner, and I, we had 50 years at that point between us in the trenches of boys education, we were unprepared for how powerfully boys described themselves as relational learners. And we realized that there was this fog of stereotype that kept us from seeing boys clearly, not just us, but folks in the trenches and some of the finest boys schools around the world. we all had trouble naming this phenomenon that boys are relational. Fundamentally Niobe found something similar. She found that we have this shroud of, of, of misconception that, you know, what she calls false stories that keep us from recognizing how capable of intimacy boys are in their friendships. I arrived at a similar place looking at boys' relationships with their teachers and coaches. Kristina Supler: That's interesting because this, this subject or this topic of relationships, Susan, and I see it so often at the beginning of episode, Susan mentioned fraternities and hazing, of course, but there's a lot of positive that can come from fraternities in those relationships. And in your book, you talk about this idea of brotherhood being a distinct and integral. Facet in boyhood and you discuss how it's ever present in institutions of boyhood like recess, sports teams, clubs, fraternities. When we represent young men in college title IX cases, we do that work across the country and typically our clients are accused male students. And so often Susan and I have these really difficult conversations. With our clients, these young men who are absolutely heartbroken and shocked when they not only receive the news that, they're respondent in a Campus Title IX case, but they learn that they've been asked to leave or been kicked out of their fraternity. And they're friends with whom they thought they had this deep connection. They're now on an island alone. What can you tell us about this? Or what are your thoughts on why that happens. Susan Stone: Other than the legal aspect? Because we always wonder. Is it really the boys or the boys that succombing to pressure from their chapters saying, mm-hmm we, we don't want our charter revoked. You gotta get that kid out and suspend them and it  Kristina Supler: make it begs the question. How real are the friendships? Yeah. And then that's a painful, uh, ugly dose of reality that these young men are, are navigating on top of everything else. So, Michael, what are your thoughts?  Susan Stone: Are boys really good time, Charlies?  Dr. Michael Reichert: Well, you're saying you're packing a lot into your question. So it, I, I think I need to unpack it a little bit or answer from different angles. Number one boys friendships are uh, transformative just as their relationships with teachers and coaches can be transformative. You know, that's what Niobe Ways research established was that these are relationships in which boys can live. They can breathe, they can be themselves and absent those relationships. Their mental health is, is considerably diminished they're alone. So you know, the feeling that your clients have expressed when they get canceled by their fraternity. Of being at a complete loss. I think that's very real and painful. That's number one, but number two, you know, we are in an era, almost a pendulum swing era in which the realities of title IX and me too are seeping into the culture in ways that I think are largely. There's been this culture, this bro culture that has existed in uh, male development that has been tacitly the dominant, a dominant theme for generations and to be called out now historically, uh, about where aggression in intimate, uh, relationships crosses a line. I think that's actually really healthy and important. And, and it, you know, it sets a bar that I think boys need to recognize and take account of, I think a lot about integrity and what what enables a, a young man to retain his human integrity, his humanity. In the context of a culture that does so much puts on puts so much pressure on boys to lose themselves, you know, this idea, for example, that for most boys, their introduction to their sexuality is in pornography. You know, we're not really, some folks are talking about that, but it's not nearly a pervasive enough conversation, particularly in families raising boys. I, I think that. These, the implementation of title IX rules on campus is I think that is in my mind, historic swing. Do boys at the same time as they're being called out, need to be called in, in some restorative justice context? I do believe that I feel strongly about that. Susan Stone: So do we, you should know that many, many years ago. Uh, Kristine and I went to Swarthmore, your neck of the woods, and we were certified in restorative justice. And you know, we talk about it for years. Kristina Supler: It's a wonderful approach to conflict resolution, repairing but  Susan Stone: harm. But I will tell you by and large, we don't get to employ those skills. We're typically hired to be advisors in a more traditional hearing setting, but we always pitch it. And I'm still waiting for the day where someone's gonna ask us to serve as advisors in a restorative justice setting. Hasn't happened yet. When did we go to Swarthmore?  Kristina Supler: Oh gosh, years ago. I don't remember, but it, it's interesting to see academic institutions embrace restorative justice more for title nine, of course, now that that's permitted with the regulations or student general student misconduct cases, but it's, it has not caught on everywhere. And there's still many students who are very, very resistant to the idea and, and view it as a process that isn't going to help resolve whatever the, the harm in question is. Susan Stone: But we're not, we're not given up on that. Michael, we, we believe in it. ,  Dr. Michael Reichert: My son went to Swarthmore, by the way. And maybe during the time that you were taking your training, your certification,  Susan Stone: you have to ask him and did he see two fabulous women walk across campus? Cause I'm sure it was us. I'm sure Dr. Michael Reichert: The arc of history here is really important to acknowledge, you know, that's really what I was trying to say. Mm-hmm and I do look forward to a time. I believe there will be a time in which you will be asked less to defend young men in these accusations and more to help restore some kind of res you know, some resolution to  I think I mentioned in my notes before your interview today that I'm launching a new study of younger men, 18 to 30 years old in partnership with an organization based in DC, Equa Mundo. We're about to launch a state of American men survey. Probably, uh, within a month or two.  We're very aware of the fact that we're taking, we're undertaking this study in a context in which Senator Holly is coming up with a new book. Uh, and Tucker Carlson is coming up with a new book, both about men and both about sort of celebrating traditional masculinity. The weaponization of masculinity is unfortunately one of the characteristics of our time and your legal practice, my work as a developmental psychologist, a consulting psychologist, and an a researcher it's taking place in this historic context, what I will say. And one of the reasons we're focusing on 18 to 30 year old guys is I don't think there's ever been a better time to be a young man. To be raising a son or educating a son. I think it's actually the first time I, I get grandiose here, Kristina and Susan, and I say, I think the first time in all of human history, in which we're really able to acknowledge the full humanity of male male beings. And in particular, the relational and emotional natures of males I think is for the first time really coming under popular scrutiny. All of these athletes, for example, who are saying, indeed I struggle with anxiety or depression or whatnot, the legitimation of males as people who have deep feelings in relationships have intimacy needs who have lots and lots of feelings and need to express those feelings. I think that's how I. This historic time and we're in a contest for what view of men is going to prevail. We're gonna have a, kind of a militaristic masculinity, you know, a throwback masculinity touted in the public square from some very loud voices. And, uh, I think that in your work defending young men who have been called out fairly or unfairly I'm I'm sure. You know, you get, you get both.  Susan Stone: We do get both. Um, and we see that there is no one flavor of a male respondent. We've had many men tell us that they don't like hooking up. They want the relationships to be deeper than sex. They don't like partying. We've had that. We've had situations where there was rough sex and it was not introduced by the male. It was introduced by the female. So we do see a lot of young men cry. Oh  Kristina Supler: yeah. I mean, it's Michael, it's so interesting to hear you say, uh, that it's such a wonderful time to examine these issues and raise young men because when Susan and I are meeting with young men every day and talking to their families, the constant refrain we hear from parents who are sitting in our office, you know, in tears about whatever the situation at hand is, because they're just in this nightmare that they never envisioned involving their child is it's such a hard time for young men on college campuses in particular.  Susan Stone: I'm gonna throw a question that I we've prepared our questions that occurred to me. um, and this is gonna be a really controversial question. I'm seeing almost the opposite where it used to be, that people would say that their boys need to toughen it up and their girls were allowed to be vulnerable. And lately we're almost seeing a shift in parenting where parents of girls assume that the girls are competent and will take care of things. And that their boys are so fragile that if Kristina and I push hard, for example, when we do mock cross examination to get students ready for a hearing, we hear their boys are gonna break. And so we're actually seeing wouldn't you agree like eggshell males and warrior women?  Dr. Michael Reichert: I love that.  Kristina Supler: yeah, it it's it. You never know that. And that's actually, what I love about what we do for a living is you never know what you're gonna deal with on, on the day to day something new comes in. And just when you think you have a certain conception of how someone acts or responds to a situation you're confronted with something new. But I mean, what are your thoughts, Michael?  Susan Stone: Yeah, because I'm gonna tell you what we're speaking. We, we get asked to speak at the during his places and Wednesday we've been invited into someone's home with a group of young men and their moms before they go off to college, it's coming up, summer's almost over. And we're gonna talk about things that they should be concerned about. Of course we will give you credit, Michael, but can you give us a little something extra to share that we can talk to these boys and their moms about before these boys go off to college?  Dr. Michael Reichert: I'm still thinking about pondering your phrase eggshell boy, eggshell men and warrior women, Susan. I like that. That was  Kristina Supler: a good one. A little. Yeah.  Dr. Michael Reichert: In a nutshell, what I would say is this in a, in a survey that launched. Boyhood campaign global boyhood initiative. Equa Mundo did a survey and, uh, focus group research project. And when they surveyed parents of boys, what they found was that one of the values that parents placed cherished most importantly in their sons is something that they called emotional. and there's different ways of defining that, that I think really does illustrate my point. That there's never been a better time to be a boy to raise a son. Traditionally, emotional strength has been defined as stoicism. Suck it up. Don't show any feelings. Keep it to yourself. Rise above it, be rational. The problem is that that doesn't work particularly well. It comes at a tremendous personal cost that we've just hidden, we haven't really openly acknowledged it's coming out now that football players and star basketball players and all kinds of public figures, have been suffering and quietly believing that they need to some. Rise above that suffering. When in fact, the solution as a therapist, someone in clinical practice for a long, long time, what I know is that the solution to those kinds of struggles is the opposite of keeping it inside. It's letting it out, getting it off your chest, relieving yourself of de tension by finding someone that can quote unquote, hold you, listen to you care about you understand. We're built to cleanse our minds of suffering and struggle, but not by keeping it inside and what the current generations are doing. What younger men are figuring out is that they need to be able to do that. They need the right, the permission to do that. I teach an emotional literacy course that, that boys school outside of Philadelphia, the Haverford school mm-hmm , I've been doing it now for close to 30 years. When we first started out it was suspect. And only a kind of a self-selected few would find their way into the voluntary program. Now, 2022, that program has become what the boys call the best program in the school. The room fills with people coming. And maybe they're coming for the pizza, but I believe they're also coming for the opportunity and it's a drop and a bucket opportunity, you know, but the opportunity to talk to their friends in a real way, and the kinds of profound ways that boys will share stories about what's going on in their lives. Kristina Supler: Your comments are making me think about, of course we're located in Cleveland, Ohio. And so I'm thinking of the Cavalier's player. Kevin Love, who is, well, I'm thinking of Julia. Yes, huge. And everyone loves him for a variety of reasons. But when he came out about his struggles, I. Believe it was depression and anxiety. He, number one, it was so brave of him to share and be vulnerable with the whole country and talk about that. And I think he drew a lot of attention to the issue, but it was also curious to hear people talk about like, gee, how could this. famous, rich superstar athlete have these issues. That's so shocking. And I know Susan, I, I mean, I heard people making comments along those lines and I thought like, of course they do. I mean, this is what we see every day is a certain, you know, conception of masculinity they're struggling and they have these issues and challenges.  Susan Stone: Yeah. I just wanna circle back Michael to our talks with moms and boys, from what, tell me if you agree with this. From what I'm hearing, we really need to say that we know the transition to college is gonna be difficult. So for moms and parents of males going off to college where you are alone, and it's a long haul, that freshman year is hard to make sure that there are outlets for those males to express home sickness and loneliness and fear. Is that the message you think we should send on Wednesday night and in future talks?  Dr. Michael Reichert: Yes. I would say it a bit differently. Would I say to parents who are about to launch their sons to college freshman years? I say what you want is for your son to have you in his hip. If the attachment process in these primary relationships has gone well, so that the boy has a secure sense of being quote unquote, well held by his mom or his dad or both. What we want is for that boy to have easy access to the resource of that relationship, no matter what he's facing. Now the fear is always, you know, we have this phenomenon that Kate Lombardi Stone wrote about in her book. Mama's Boy Myth. We have this fear that many moms carry that if they keep their sons too close, they'll somehow undermine his, his individuation as a masculinity. They'll turn 'em into a mama's boy. And what I say to moms, when I talk to him, Susan, is that's nonsense. It's just the opposite. boys will want to be autonomous and independent and strong, but we don't understand separation any longer in developmental psychology as turning away from relationships or giving up on them, we actually grow in relationships, not out of them. And so boys will use their mothers as sounding boards or as stress relief valve. When they need to provided that the channel for communication is kept clear. Now, a lot of moms do, they're the ones that initiate the calls. They, they can't deal with the separation at their end. That's a different phenomenon. yeah. That's a different conversation. well,  Susan Stone: I actually am reflecting because I have two girls and one boy, and ironically, I do speak to my son more than my two daughters combin.  Kristina Supler: that is true. You say that it's very true. Yeah. Just as an outside observer.  Susan Stone: Yeah. I'm thinking and reflecting. I, I was a single mother raising three kids, and I will say, I always believed in my mind that it's much harder for a mother to raise a son without a dad present that it is a daughter. And there are a lot of single mothers out there. Do you have advice for single mom?  Dr. Michael Reichert: Okay. I have to, um, refer you to a wonderful book written by a famous Ackerman Institute, family therapist, Olga Silverstein. The book is titled the courage to raise good men. And it's a book that's based on her experience as a single mom raising her son. But essentially Susan, what she says that I, I wholeheartedly agree with is. You build this relationship with your son in which essentially you promise him, that you will always be in the background of his life there for him supporting him, loving him, knowing him, willing to hold him when he needs, needs to reveal something that's hard. And there's nothing about becoming a man that requires that your. To turn away from that or give up on that or somehow go without that strength comes from connection, not from separation. And that's the thing. I think that we, psychologists folks like Niobe Way and myself, what we're trying to redefine is what is emotional strength. And it actually is having the courage to acknowledge. I'm scared. I feel bad. I'm upset. And, and acknowledge that in the face of a culture that might derogate you if you reveal those feelings. But that's the good news here, you know, less and less. That's true. It's an exciting time.  Kristina Supler: Well, Michael, this has been a really wonderful, oh my God episode. It's really such a pleasure to talk with you and hear what you have to add to the discussion that you put in your book, how to raise a boy, the power of connection to build good men. And we encourage our listeners to check out the book and thank you so much for joining us today.  Susan Stone: Michael, we could talk to you further, but I think it's really good to end on a note where my mind is just racing because with all the pain going on the world, mm-hmm, leaving on a note that this is a great time to raise a boy. It's a great time to be a male in the face of everything. And that men are more comfortable being more emotional, that bodes well for both men and our daughters and women. So  Dr. Michael Reichert: thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Good luck in your parenting um, thank you both. Thanks for talking with you. Thank you. Susan Stone: Thank you.

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Joe Hendry, a Senior Director of onsite services for Navigate 360. They discuss school safety and best practices.  The conversation includes why schools are still a relatively safe space for kids , the importance and limitations of a threat assessment in today's day and age, and what parents, students, and school faculty need to know to properly prevent and manage threatening school situations. Links Mentioned In the Show: KJK Student Defense Navigate360.com Show Notes: (01:06) What makes today's guest perfect to discuss children's safety in school (02:48) Are schools in this day and age considered a safe environment for kids? (03:15) The unprecedented spike in mental health issues in schools since the onset of the pandemic (03:56)  Have professionals and experts in the field determined a specific profile that indicates one can become an active shooter? (04:50) The limitations of threat assessment in a school setting (05:50) An instance where 2 separate threat assessments were fatally inaccurate  (07:49) How to distinguish a possible threat indicator from an unremarkable firearm post on social media  (08:45) How conducting risk assessments can aid in improving safety and security protocols in the school setting overall (09:37) Typical issues Joe and his team identify during risk assessments in school districts  (11:10) Why over 90% of these catastrophic incidents are actually internal threats (12:00) The importance of early intervention to prevent behavioral issues in students from escalating (13:43) What parents and their children need to know about school lockdowns during dire situations (16:28) Why simply containing dangerous situations within the school physically is not always to correct solution and might even work in favor of the assailant (18:29) Flexibility is the key to an effective lockdown protocol; there is no one-size-fits-all lockdown Susan Stone: Today's topic is quite serious. School safety.  Kristina Supler: This is a really difficult topic to discuss. It's. It's a topic that evokes anxiety and fear and. It's top of mind for all of us, particularly as families and households are getting ready for children to go back to school. So we really thought it was essential to do an episode on school safety. Susan Stone: And every time there is another school shooting, it seems like there's a lot of finger pointing and blame placed and it's not constructive to constantly place blame. So we really wanted to have a guest here to talk about what are steps we could take to. Be more solution focused.  Kristina Supler: With that in mind. Let's kick it off with today's guest, Joe Hendry.  We're here today to talk about school safety and best practices. We're so pleased to be joined by our guest, Joe Henry, Joe served in the Marine Corps and then was a law enforcement officer for nearly 30 years. Now he's transitioned. He's in the private sector where he's senior director of onsite services for Navigate 360, which is basically a company that provides safety solutions for school. Susan Stone: We really are lucky to have you here, Joe, can I just brag about you a little bit before we ask you questions? You were named by the Ohio department of Homeland security. I'm gonna do it anyways. Even if it embarrasses you and the Ohio attorney General's office, as an expert in civilian and law enforcement responses to active threats. Mr Hendry he was also selected as a one of only 18 subject matter experts in school security in the world, by his peers at the, and correct me if I get this wrong, Joe, the ASIS International organization. And we've really avoided this topic, Kristina, because fortunately school safety hasn't been hasn't really hit our practice. We haven't really dealt with that issue in terms of our clients and our cases, but too much has happened. And we felt it was really important to bring you on Joel. And thank you so much for agreeing to talk about school safety.  Joe Hendry: Sure.  Kristina Supler: Thanks again for joining us. through the pandemic, Susan and I in our practice have seen a, a surge in students with mental health issues. And now we turn on the news and here we are. So let's start with the big question. Are schools safe today?  Joe Hendry: I think schools are relatively safe compared to a lot of other locations because there's so much, in place from prior events since Columbine occurred Schools have taken security for the most part fairly seriously. So a lot of things were in place potentially physically security wise from incidents at Columbine and Virginia tech and, Sandy hook that started requiring, special locks, doors, fencing, things like that. But you are correct. There's been a huge uptick in mental health issues. Since the pandemic And that affects security in ways that we haven't seen before prepared for actually,  Susan Stone: Kristine and I deal with mental health issues that impact the types of accommodations that students need in schools, such as ADHD or dyslexia or autism. We're talking about something very, very, very different. And I just wanna know in your experience working on these issues, is there a profile of the type of person or who would become an active shooter?  Joe Hendry: So the secret service is done two major studies since Columbine and has been really unable to come up with a definitive answer. There's a profile for an active shooter. We have a profile for someone who's a serial killer. There are indicators of person who may become an active shooter, but having a set threat assessment profile of one there isn't there's overlap with things, obviously the most recent one at all day that individual really didn't have any run ins may have had some mental health issues that really didn't. Very obvious through the education system. I've read that he was denied access to some educational benefits to him because he wasn't classified as needing them by the school district. It sounds like he began to leave the education system in a very slow way was having problems at Develop fascination with guns, things like that. Those are indicators potentially of someone who may be prone to violence. It's one of those things where you know, it, when you see it, but because we don't train people how to identify it sometimes threat assessment works and sometimes it doesn't, it's not the exact science. So the way you guys deal with a lot of things, you see ADA access, ADA access, things like that. What I see on my side of the house and I'm trained in NTAC that's national threat assessment center for mental health, you know, identifying people with mental health issues that may become violent. Those type of people require professional assessment by people who are psychologists people who are involved, potentially parents, teachers. Law enforcement security people that run into them in the education system. And even that isn't particularly 100% full proof in identifying those people because there is no exact profile. So a lot of times you may not even know you stop somebody in the path to violence by doing a good behavioral threat assessment on them. But a lot of times it becomes an issue where they don't even. Be able to identify people. You guys remember the Arapahoe shooting a few years ago? Yeah. At the stem school. So that individual it had two threat assessments, one done by the school and one, his mother actually had done by a professional psychologist and both of them actually identified him as a low threat and here he becomes an active shooter. There's no 100% cure all for some of the threats we see in the education system that all makes. Yeah,  Kristina Supler: well, it it's, it's actually frightening to think about what you're saying in that there's all these mental health professionals and experts and law enforcement professionals, and other safety professionals who study this for a living. And you say there's no specific. Profile. And it begs the question, Susan and I regularly handle student misconduct cases that might involve the student getting in trouble for posting a picture with a toy gun or fake bullets, things like that. And we've seen believe it or not. We've seen students expelled for these types of social media posts. So can you talk to us a little bit about what's the difference between. Maybe a real warning sign versus something along the lines of a student making a joke. That of course is not funny.  Susan Stone: No. And I just wanna add, because the, every year it seems like Kristina, wouldn't you agree? They always happen in September. The jokes come online often,  often. Yeah. That's a good  point. And we're seeing middle school kids because they have access to devices younger and younger, and I don't wanna profile, but typically boys who will post pictures. And they, they really do think it's a joke or that it's just for friends. They don't expect it to get out. So how's a school supposed to know the difference between this is just a normal kid. And if you expel this kid, you're really derailing their education or causing a school to prison pipeline, versus we gotta watch this kid,  Joe Hendry: right. It's really the entirety of behavior of the student who actually has the incident, right. A kid drawing a picture of a gun could go either way. Right. Does he have an unhealthy obsession with a gun? Does he have access to firearms? Has he done things in the past? That would lead people to believe that he's violent, that has, tendencies potentially is the individual suicidal. Does he have. Does he bully other children? All those things come together, drawing the picture of the firearm itself in and of itself may be absolutely nothing. And that's one of the problems we have. Since Columbine, there was this big, huge zero tolerance for violence policy. Sure. Yeah. And that doesn't work. Really doesn't that's why professional behavioral threat assessment is. So I. There's a couple different programs out there. And, you know, in my role as a school professional, one of the things that I do is we do company does risk assessments and I go and conduct risk assessments. In fact, I'm in the process of actually writing a risk assessment for a school district that had an active shooter last year that we were at. And one of the things we at you  Susan Stone: clarify, Joe, when you say a risk assessment, I just wanna understand for the institution, or do you do it on a specific student? I just wanna make sure  Joe Hendry: we're doing it on the institution. Thank you. The entire, I just didn't understand that. Okay. Facility. So we're looking at all their safety and security procedures and their personnel and their training. And there's a lot of interviews. We look at the physical security safety, and all those things come together because that require. Safety and security requires a very comprehensive plan and it's not just the physical side of things. It's the mental health side of things. Are you providing, behavioral threat assessment you're providing training to people, are you training, emergency operation plan, continuity of operation plans? All those things go into a risk assessment. But one of the things we see is when we start going to do a risk assessment of district, and we ask for paperwork, they'll tell us that they have a threat assessment team, right? They maybe have a school psychologist or social worker on the team. They have a, maybe a school resource officer, principal teacher sometimes outside professionals, depending on the case, what we find is they're meeting, but they really don't have a good guide sense of guidelines on how to conduct the assessment. They don't have good record keeping they're not using, the national threat assessment center from the secret service has professional standards and. In order how to conduct a risk assessment for someone who potentially could be violent or potentially it's a student acting out, or like you said, it could be a student who just did something that thought it would be funny among his friends and it blew up in their face. So what's the decision has to be, what is the difference between all three of those individuals? Having a policy that says if anyone does anything, we kick them outta school. doesn't benefit anyone, especially the student that is the subject of the behavioral threat assessment.  Kristina Supler: So, so was, let me ask you, is there any way there's a lot that goes into this. This is a complicated issue, of course. Is there any way for schools to identify early on before the catastrophe happens? When a, a potential shooter a student. Who might engage in some sort of violence enters the building  Susan Stone: or a stranger? Sure. Doesn't have to be a, a student. It could be just, you know, unidentified citizen, Joe Hendry: you know, a lot of people don't understand specifically active shooter events in education over 90% of them are internal threats. There're students, staff members of people. Wow. That's really interesting's. So it's not strange. It's meant associated with the school.  Wow. Okay. When you say associated, could you tell. Who, what are the who's in that 90%?  I'm curious. So if you're talking students, there's been staff members, obviously there have been, husbands of teachers parents, they're all people that are intimately associated with the school, that know facility that know where people are, all of that stuff. And I'm not gonna get in the lockdown right now, cuz we're on a different topic. When you realize they're gonna get there,  Susan Stone: Joe. Hey, tight.  Joe Hendry: okay. When you get to 90, when you're thinking about 90% of the people are either from the facility or intimately acquainted with it, these are people that a lot of times that are known now, sometimes it's former students that commit crimes, but a lot of times, if we can identify behavioral issues and students that are young without labeling them as a threat, maybe they just had behavioral issues. That, they need to work on kind of stuff. Those kind of things are early interventions with students that, you can maybe potentially change behaviors in young students so that they don't become disillusioned, that they don't become bullies or victim of bullying, things like that. Those are all things that kind of need identified early in the process. A lot of times I'll see and hear from teachers and staff on risk assessments that they. Anti-bullying training maybe at the junior or high level and the high school level, but they're not doing it at elementary school when it actually really is beginning. Susan Stone: Well, when you talk about early intervention, you're speaking our language, cuz we're all about advocating for early intervention, but I wanna shift a little bit. Sure. Because this podcast, we're both parents; you're a parent, Joe; you're talking to parents. So if you were going to speak to parents, what you're doing now, what should parents be telling their children about? God forbid, if something happens how to respond. I know, I would say, and it's probably the wrong thing. You're gonna tell me it. But my instinct is that fight flight, but really in this case, it's flight, like run away, go  Kristina Supler: don't. Yeah. I'm not sure that I, I don't think when I hear my daughter talk about the training she does, it's it? Her school it's it's the opposite. So I I'm curious, Joe, you're you're the expert. What should parents be talking to their kids about? Realistically?  Joe Hendry: So what a lot of people don't understand is, you know, we, we talk about it in a very ubiquitous way, the word lockdown, right? It kind of covers everything. Everybody uses it for everything, lockdowns a code word, number one, which we shouldn't even be thinking about using, FEMA came out in 2050 that don't use codes, tell people exactly what's happening so they know how to respond. And I keep hearing the word lockdown. It  Susan Stone: scares me. I don't feel trapped. Joe Hendry: It's a verbal word. You're actually trapping. You're doing the one thing that someone who becomes an active shooter or, you know, is a suspect in one of these things. Lockdown actually does. The one thing that the gunman is completely unable to do by themselves. That is gain control of an entire facility that is populated on by almost every room by people and gives 'em complete and utter control of the facility. And absolutely almost in no way, is there anything that's going to happen other than potentially you put a door lock between a suspect and a room full of kids, but that door lock the windows in the doors, the doors, none of those are manufactured to withstand gunfire. There. The infrastructure doesn't match the response. Kristina Supler: Everyone wants to get in the room. They're gonna get in the room, right? Yeah, no,  Susan Stone: I, I, I, like I said, my instinct has always has not like the idea of telling your kid to stay in the room. So what do you do, joe?  Joe Hendry: Yeah, here's the thing. And really, we have examples of this already nationally in training and fire response. I mean, fire response, all of us know how to respond to a fire and we've been train. Nationally to how to respond to a fire since 1960. And that 62 years of training has told us that if the building's on fire and you're under danger, you should leave. But it also gives us other options. Like if we're in contact with a fire, you catch on, fire's supposed to stop, drop and roll. We train people if other people on fire and they panic and they start to run, knock them down, roll on top of them. Extinguish. With your own body. We're trained in fire extinguishers, the infrastructure, the buildings built around us surviving a fire and everything. But the interesting thing is, and this is originally why we got on this call is we don't train people to fight fires. Right. We just, we don't do that, but we train 'em how to do everything else, active shooters, the exact same thing. But because back Lockdown tactics and active shooter come from Southern California from the 1970s. But the problem is rooted in the 1960s. The riots in Watts in Los Angeles caused a Los Angeles unified school district to fence in several of their properties around their schools to keep threats outside. Right. A very common concept called concentric rings of security to prevent threats from coming from the neighborhoods onto the school. That concept worked very well for particular types of threat. However, at that moment in time, too, at that moment in time, and that moment in time, cuz that  infrastructure works very well, right for certain threats. But however, in the 1970s, when the FBI defeats the mafia in Southern California, basically, right, it creates power vacuum, the power vacuum still by gangs. Those gangs begin to target each other where the mafia really targeted people in a. Particular way, right? They found a target. That was the person was the target. The gangs began to just spray gunfire in the streets and drive-by shootings became like a major event in these cities. And still to some extent they are, but really in the seventies and eighties, this was huge problem into the 1990s. But what happened was the kids who were at the school when they were shot at, on the street, had the ability to run away. But the fencing for the threats that was installed in the 60. Became a trap for the students that were on school ground, know anything about Los Angeles, the school grounds. A lot of the it's warm all day, right? So the kids are outside. Their cafeterias are outside. Their lunch rooms are outside. Their gyms are outside. They have courtyard open schools with doors that open in the courtyards. There's no interior hallways. So when these events happen, the ability to run away was fixed by the fence mm-hmm and they could not leave the area. So Los Angeles had to come up with a different response and they actually began to call what's called drive-by shooting drills. You can actually look these up. The first reference I can find to them in a national publication is an ed week in January of 1993, where a reporter does a study on how drive-by shooting drills are being used for shootings that are beginning to happen on school campuses. So this is 30 years ago.  Susan Stone: Apply those however day. Are we supposed to train? Are students in an orderly way, how to get out of the building,  Joe Hendry: For fire. Yes. But here's the problem. When we see training, right. Organizations good in training and you, you know, you need to crawl, walk, run when you do training. Right. But we don't pick the time, the place or the victims of an event. And if you have a one size fits all plan like lockdown, single option or. And you have to be in a room and you have to do certain steps in order to remain safe. Those plans are not flexible. They're not like a fire plan that has flexibility based on your location to the fire. You know, if I told you to go into a room and close the door and wait for the fire department to come save you during a fire, you would tell me I was insane. But that's the fact, but let ask you this  Kristina Supler: practice shooter what's that if, if. One teacher, it sounds like. So I hear you. We can't have one size fits all cuz you can't, you don't know exactly what threat is going to present itself, but I isn't. It also true. You can't have some teachers evacuating students and other teachers in the same school, keeping students locked in cuz isn't that a, a, a total recipe for chaos  Joe Hendry: actually chaos works on our favor during these events. These are human beings committing these crimes. Human beings can only focus on one thing at a time. And if you give them control of an entire facility, in which every room in that facility, I don't people say you're hiding and they turn off the lights and all that stuff. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard because the threat is 90% of 'em come from the facility or intimately acquainted with it. And you know, at 1:23 in the afternoon, on a Tuesday at a school, how many rooms are occupied?  Susan Stone: So Joe, I'm gonna press you. Because our listeners need something to take home. What would you tell your child to do depending on the age? Could you break it up between sure. Elementary, middle and a high school student,  Joe Hendry: young elementary school students should listen to the teachers, but that requires the teachers to be properly trained based on the location of the event. Right. So my kids. Regardless of where they're at in school right now in elementary school, only about 60 to 70% of the school day spent in a classroom. So you could potentially lock down in a classroom, right? That may be an option based on your location, based on where the threat is. However, they're also on the playground in the cafeteria and the bathroom and the hallways and the library, um, in the gym. All of those locations may require a different. That may require evacuation. So it doesn't mean everyone in the building does the same thing. Every response is based on your location, based on where the threat is. And you have to have some type of ability to adjust to a threat. If you are in contact with it. I'm sure everyone read  Susan Stone: about what's that I gotta push you on this. And I normally don't push my guests hard. Oh no, go ahead. But what should the parent tell the high school kids, the high school kids,  Joe Hendry: high school kids. I, I told my high school kids, the first thing you do, regardless of what's happening, if you know there's a threat and you're able to evacuate the facility, the policy means nothing. Leave the facility.  Kristina Supler: There you go. Susans in  Susan Stone: thinks we're correct leaves. What I've always told  Joe Hendry: my kids. Leave, leave the facility. Number two, if you don't know where the threat is, or you're in close contact with it and you have the ability. You don't have the ability to leave the facility. That's when you use lockdown, but it's not traditional lockdown. I'm only relying on a door. I'm barricading a door. There's a lot of doors in schools where students cannot lock them because they don't have keys. Right. Teachers may not be present. All those things affect the response. That's why you need the ability to be flexible. So students need to know how to barricade a location. They need to know how to prepare countermeasures inside. If the location is. All of these things, the people killing them normally are their classmates. So they know these people and they know who they are, the ability to barricade. Location's good. If my, and I've told my children, if you are in contact, you know, once they probably hit junior high, I told them if you're in contact and you cannot evacuate, and there's no ability to barricade, cuz like I said, bad guy pick the time, the place and the victims, you do whatever you need to do to survive that. It could be swarming the gunman. It could be throwing things at the gunman's face to crack them. It could be trying to run past the gunman. We're all different as human beings training. You know, I did a, there's a scientific study that I had published with two professors in the journal of school violence, where we actually studied response with lockdown and, and multi option response with active shooter. Individuals that use multi option response. It doesn't mean everyone survives. It doesn't mean no one's injured. What it does mean is the casualties decrease in that circumstance by over 75%, when you use multi option response over lockdown, when there's an actual threat. So it becomes important to tell the kids everything that they can do to survive. Not just one single thing, because if the one single thing fails, then pretty much everyone that's at that location ends up being shot.  Susan Stone: Thank you. So  Kristina Supler: it's such a, it's such a complicated issue. I I'd like to take a few moments to turn our attention to the report. That's recently come out examining the Uvalde shooting. We know that there were the report indicates that it was total chaos and in a multitude of systemic failures what transpired that day? How do we prevent the chaos when people realize a shooter might be in the building and it's terrifying. And, and can you tell us what are some of the key takeaways from that report and what do you think we should all know and learn from that report? Joe Hendry: I guess we'll start with the school response. It's pretty obvious that the school and it's interesting because the state of Texas certified that school is being prepared for an active shooter.  Kristina Supler: Oh, my gosh.  Joe Hendry: I, so that was one of the big, huge takeaways from the report. The state said they were okay. Which means obviously what they had in place. It's not just the law enforcement failure. It was the failure of their training. It was the failure of their planning. It was the failure of whatever they had told their students to do when something happened, the teacher in the one classroom where all the students were killed and the teacher survived which I, I don't know if I. How I feel about myself. The teacher said that their plan failed and when the gunman came in the room, they were all sitting on the floor where they had been told to hide. And the gunman just block down, shot all of them. And that's not the first time that it's happened in the use of lockdown. So the school did not have, whatever the state said they had in place, obviously didn't work. There were sounds like broken door locks or doors that were propped things like. Those are huge safety concerns. Any at any time, especially with a school that was having a ton of lockdowns because of the border patrol activity in the area, things like that, where they were leaving doors open, apparently which anyone could have come into the school. They had fencing around the school. It was only five feet high. That is not a proper height. It doesn't sound like they had professional risk assessment, which is the basis of everything you do. And you never one you never, ever, and you guys know this never, ever assess yourself. And your capabilities, you always have. Kristina Supler: No. Cause of course we're biased. We also, no. Susan Stone: And, and Joe, I don't know if you agree with this, but I think that in preparing for today and just every day, reading the news, the response, both healthcare workers, getting kids out of there, getting them medical attention Having law enforcement go in and know how to manage it. Having school safety officers know how to manage it. There was a lot to take away from this situation.  Joe Hendry: When I, so it was a former law enforcement officer and a master trainer for our state and solo engagement. Um, and I was former SWAT member. There were 376 police officers there and no one took charge. No one. No one ran operations inside. It sounds like no one ran operations outside. It was mass chaos. I was kind of hoping the report would maybe talk about whatever the fire and emergency medical service response was. You know, were they organized? Were they prepared? Because usually, there's a thing called unified command and unified command is the law enforcement fire response. And you guys didn't mention this in my bio, but I sit on NFPA 3000, which writes the national standards for law enforcement, fire and EMS to respond. Those things that are in the code in NFPA 3000. I don't believe were followed at all from what I've read, uh, and know so far it's to me as a law enforcement officer, it's very disheartening to see what happened. And to know that one of the, and it came out in the report that one of the agencies that supposedly talked about the law enforcement response didn't even conduct their own investigation. They took state reports and were trying to tell what went wrong during the incident. Obviously from a legal standpoint, we all know that is completely the wrong way to do that. And it'll be very interesting when the interview started happening with the officers, especially the command level officers that were there. And it's now come out with the report that the, the majority of officers at the scene were actually federal and state level law enforcement officers, not local law enforcement officer. So Joe, that tells me training had failed at all levels.  Susan Stone: I, I agree that that is an example and it's tragic. But can you give us a positive example of where something has gone, right. Because yeah, we  Kristina Supler: only hear, are there any, are there any  Susan Stone: positive success? Are there stories where there was a potential actor shooter, a school sought responded, and that is the model that we should be promoting. And I, I do wanna, I always try to give a takeaway to parents and end on some positive notes because all we're hearing is what went wrong Joe Hendry: . Trying to think of a good one that probably everyone would know. And I I'll go with Ohio. Chardon's response was actually pretty good. 10 years ago to their event. Um,  Kristina Supler: oh yes. The TJ Lane shooting. That's right.  Joe Hendry: Yeah. Okay. I never say the gunman's names, but yeah, that shooting, um, who was in the media so we can say yeah, there, there that incident. Well, not perfect. Actually went fairly well because. You guys all remember Frank Hall, right? The, the football coach hero, the football coach, the students initially some of the classrooms and stuff, barricaded, things like that. So that response was pretty good. Students were hiding under cafeteria tables, which was a lesson learned. It's like get out of the cafeteria. We had a student in the cafeteria whose mother was trained by one of my instructors at Kent state at the time. and her, she had told her child to evacuate and the, in, when that incident happened the gunman was shooting children underneath the cafeteria table and she was at the table next to it. She actually grabbed her friend and some kitchen even know at the time and drugged them out of cafeteria and left. So there were some good lessons learned there. Frank Hall charging at the gunman, distracted him from shooting students. Frank actually chases him out of the building. And definitely Frank's actions while there were still students that were wounded and killed. His response stopped that incident from being way worse than it could have. There, one of the things we learned from that incident Chardon nationally was how important the reunification process is. Um, because the reunification process worked very well when they evacuated the building with the students. That's important things to work on for events could be applied to other incidences and crimes or incidents in the school, but those were good takeaways, you know, not trying to hide in direct contact with a gun and obviously was a lesson learned, but other rooms in the facility, students evacuating students, barricading locations, that was, those were all good actions taken actually on the scene by the students themselves. Because obviously it was before school started. Some of the students weren't even. Uh, really supervisor or even had the ability to take direction from teacher. When an incident occurred. So it also showed how,  Kristina Supler: and that's a good point because to what you said earlier about the older kids, essentially older students, I should say use their judgment and respond to what's going on immediately around them. That incident unfolded in the early hours of the school day before school even was ahead. Officially started. I, I think and correct me if I'm wrong.  Joe Hendry: They were, my kids were in the cafeteria. Some were waiting for buses and some were, so those  Kristina Supler: students, they, they instinctively their instincts and, and. We're able to respond better. Susan Stone: Look, I think from a career working with students, it is important for parents to tell students. And it's the first question we ask: schools are safe. This is happening, but school, you, you need to have some, we all have to live our lives. We can't walk around being fearful every day or the other mental health issues are gonna skyrocket and then you'll have other problems. We don't want more anxiety. We don't want more depression. But we have to be ready. And. Joe. I just wanna thank you because we need people like you to come into the schools. We need to learn from the errors that have occurred and move forward somehow. So I appreciate the conversation today.  Joe Hendry: Yeah. I thought it was very good. Kristina Supler: Thanks for joining us. It was really time well spent to hear from you as an expert and, and there's so much more to learn and consider on this topic. Thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate  Susan Stone: it. Bye  Joe Hendry: Joe. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Terry McGovern, Harriet and Robert H. Heilbrunn Professor and Chair of the Heilbrunn Department of Population and Family Health and the Director of the Program on Global Health Justice and Governance at the Columbia University Mailman School of Public Health.  They discuss the ramifications of the reversal of the Roe V. Wade Supreme Court decision on college campuses. The conversation includes the ripple effect of this controversial decision of SCOTUS on education, women's health and the economy, the possible legal considerations colleges need to be aware of and act on to accommodate the ruling, and what parents and college students can to adjust to the shifting context of abortion in the U.S. today. Show Notes: (01:07) A healthy discussion about the consequences of the recent reversal of the Supreme Court decision on Roe vs. Wade on college campuses (02:29) Making abortion illegal will not lessen its occurence; it will increase maternal death  (03:22) How the criminalization of abortion further endangers women in college who are already at an elevated risk for sexual violence  (03:54) Adding fear into an already costly medical procedure for women in college (05:17) The role religion plays in universities, the new abortion ban, and women's health (06:56) Why parents and female students need to reconsider their universities based on where they stand on the abortion verdict  (08:32) Why Dobbs should not affect women's access to Plan B and other emergency contraception (09:57) How Dobbs will impact Title IX cases and its provisions  (10:15) What colleges universities need to act on with regards to Title IX cases in light of the abortion ban and criminalization (10:54)  Will colleges face criminal risk or exposure for aiding a student's travel to access abortion facilities  (12:20) How the limitation of access to reproductive health has instilled a fear of risk of prosecution for colleges and its staff (15:44) The repercussions of the criminalization of abortion on women's health, likelihood of completing college altogether, the economy and what it means for the state (17:11) Why section 504 of Title IX cases, the Rehabilitation Act, and the Americans with Disabilities Act need to adjust accordingly to the elimination of the constitutional right to abortion (18:27) Terry's insights on the possibility of the reversal of the abortion ban in the future  (20:52) Why a public health leader believes that the appropriate public response of universities about this ruling should favor bodily autonomy and the health outcome of their students (22:22) Ways in which students can campaign for women's health after the recent SCOTUS ruling on abortion (26:02) Sound advice parents should give their college kids about sex and possibilities of pregnancy before sending them off (26:45) Why parents need to consider the possibility of their sons causing a pregnancy in college as well (29:27) The extreme lengths women may possibly take because of the criminalization of abortion  (31:20) The heartbreaking impact of this decision on the mental and physical health of children Transcript: Kristina Supler: We're so pleased today to be joined by Terry McGovern. Terry's the Harriet and Robert Heilbrunn professor and chair of the Heilbrunn department of population and family health at Columbia University's Mailman School of Public Health. Since 2018, Terry served as director of the department's program on global health health justice and governance. And before joining, joining the mailman school in 1989, Terry founded the HIV law project and served as the executive director until 1999. While at the HIV law project, Terry litigated the groundbreaking case. S P V Sullivan, which led to the social security administration, including HIV-related disability in their criteria. Kristina Supler: She was appointed by President Bill Clinton to the national task force on aids, drug development, Terry, we're so pleased to have you join us today. Thank you. Susan Stone: Today's topic is how the recent United States Supreme court Dobbs decision, which reversed Roe V. Wade will impact students on college campuses. And Kristina we've really struggled about how to do this podcast. Because we want it to be a meaningful discussion that provides parents with information in a way that's helpful and shows some thought on our end. Susan Stone: And I know, you know, that I was in Italy, on my honeymoon and I couldn't get my mind off of. How to do this podcast? Who to have as a guest? And I feel so grateful for the guest that we're gonna have today. I know I reached out to her via email and I really thought about my words. I think I crafted that email, those three short paragraphs with as much thought as I would craft a legal brief. Susan Stone: And I'm so honored that she is here to talk about this topic.  Susan Stone: And thank you for answering my email.  Terry McGovern: Of course. Thank you for having me  Susan Stone: Terry. First question. What is your reaction to the Dobs decision? And just, could you give our listeners who are mostly parents an explanation of how it will impact students on various college campuses? Terry McGovern: Sure. I have to say I was actually stunned. We know that making abortion illegal, doesn't actually reduce abortion. There's so much evidence globally of this. All it does is increase maternal mortality. So just from the point of view of wanting to end abortion, the way to do that, Is obviously to increase access to contraception and services. Terry McGovern: It's not to criminalize abortion. So from my perspective, this decision has really unleashed a whole lot of unnecessary harm on women and girls and people who can get pregnant. Of course in that category, we know that 57% of those who get abortions are women in their twenties. The latest data says 29% are college age students. Terry McGovern: So we also know that, college age women are at an elevated risk of sexual violence. We know that there's lots and lots of power issues. Negotiating sex. So for the women and girls who are in states, that abortion is now illegal and, and even criminalized this creates a very, very complicated set of decisions for them and a lot of complexity around everything having to do with a possible unintended pregnancy. Terry McGovern: So obviously just to state the obvious students often don't have access to cars. Their health insurance status is often dependent on parents. Many have jobs. There's a lot going on when you're in college. Before this decision accessing abortion was not easy. Right? So now you've injected into a very complicated situation, you know, a whole bunch of fear. Terry McGovern: And I think, I think the, uh, the issue of costs and how much it will cost to actually get an abortion, to travel, to get an abortion. All of these things are gonna be very, very difficult for students. I think.  Kristina Supler: Susan and I, we represent students on campuses across the country. We deal with college students day in and day out. And we often start our conversations with parents, with the, the idea that look, every college campus has its own culture values. What flies on one campus? Doesn't done another, right. So it's fair to say at some schools, this decision might not have any impact on students and in other places might be absolutely monumental. Kristina Supler: I mean, do you agree with that? What would you say?  Susan Stone: Especially with students at Columbia or Barnard? I don't think it's gonna be the same as students at Ohio state.  Terry McGovern: Of course not, of course not. I mean, obviously, OB people just generally in acts in states that are making moves to protect access to abortion are in way better shape. Terry McGovern: Many of the colleges across the country actually even provide abortion medication, provide all kinds of services. It's the colleges in the states that have these extreme bands now where it's very scary. So for example, my son goes to college in Ohio. And the college that he goes to recently decided to contract with a religious provider. Terry McGovern: So there are huge questions about what services will be available, whether there will ever be any help for an abortion referral out of state. So it is extremely diff different depending upon where you are. one of the things post Dobbs is that people really do have to take a minute, figure out what the law is, where access is possible. Terry McGovern: You know, these are, these are very serious things to think about for parents, for your kids in schools, because you don't want to be scrambling. Susan Stone: Depending on where you stand on the issue. I'm thinking Terry about myself. I have a rising junior in high school. We're gonna start looking at colleges. Do you think that the Dobbs opinion will impact where students actually apply for college? Terry McGovern: I think for sure. I think for sure. I mean, I think it should, these are very, very serious issues. Honestly I have never written a letter to my child's college before. And I wrote immediately when I saw that they were going to contract with a, with a religious entity. Because I would have really extreme concerns about the safety of my child, in a place where they could not access any of these services. Terry McGovern: We're already seeing some polling of particularly girls who are thinking about crossing off the list schools that are in states that have total bans or, or criminalization provisions. Susan Stone: So it's gonna be even more difficult to get into Columbia. Or barnard . Terry McGovern: I mean, I, I think it's pretty difficult, but I suppose it could get more difficult. Terry McGovern: Yeah. It is really a very serious issue. If you're a girl  Kristina Supler: there's just even more for families to consider and, and to really be thoughtful about when trying to find the right campus for. For the students, Susan, and I I'd like to turn to a different issue that touches on the do's opinion. Kristina Supler: We represent students across the country involved in campus title I proceedings. And we've had countless cases that in some way, shape or form involve economy that breaks in plan B maybe no condom and plan B plan B is, is in many, many of our cases. Do you think that Dobbs is going to impact the availability of plan b? Terry McGovern: It should not. Many of us feel like Dobbs has opened the door to questioning everything that has to do with contraception, emergency contraception. Nothing in the opinion actually would lead to that conclusion, but it has unleashed a kind of unfettered dedication to denying access to anything, having to do with, sexual and reproductive health services and particularly contraception morning after et cetera. Terry McGovern: The answer is mixed.  Susan Stone: That's very interesting because what we're also wrestling with Terry, and maybe you can help us sort this through, as student advisors in the title IX process, we have dealt with situations where there have been unwanted pregnancies and abortions, and actually female complainants include the unwanted pregnancy as an aspect of a title IX violation that they didn't get consent to get pregnant as a different twist on consent. Susan Stone: We're wondering how will Dobs impact title IX? And do you think we're gonna see a rise of the unwanted pregnancy being a component of this type of complaint on college campuses. And even in those states where abortion is illegal and maybe more so in those states,  Terry McGovern: Yeah. I mean, I think for sure, I mean the other issue isn't title IX only mandates excused absences for abortion and cases of medical necessity. Terry McGovern: So there are a whole lot of issues around title IX that have to be really thought about now. Given the, really this colleges should expand this definition of what is, a mandated excused absence. I do think for sure that you'll see more, we'll see more of these type cases. The other thing is that institutions should be establishing emergency funds, travel and care services. Terry McGovern: Just, there's a whole range of things, including looking at the title IX provisions and expanding them that I think colleges should be doing. But yes, of course. I think you'll see, you'll see more cases like that. Susan Stone: You know, Kristina, you're very involved with the NACDL, which is one of our country's best associations for criminal defense lawyers. Susan Stone: If a college facilitates a fund to allow for travel. Do you think there's any criminal risk or exposure?  Kristina Supler: That's a really good question. And a question that many of my brilliant ,  Susan Stone: that's what I asked you, partner.  Kristina Supler: My brilliant colleagues are wrestling with right now and obviously I'm sort of chuckling, but I shouldn't because it's a really serious question that some of the most brilliant people in our country are wrestling with in terms of setting policy and procedures for institutions on how to service the needs of students. And without getting too into legalese and boring stuff, the people who aren't lawyers probably wouldn't care about the it's a super complicated issue. Kristina Supler: Colleges and universities have legal obligations to help students and accommodate students for various issues. But yet there's also criminal implications and confidentiality issues and stuff like the crime fraud, exception, and, and there's all these sorts of like very academic issues that lawyers and administrators are, are wrestling with now. Kristina Supler: And I'm curious, Terry, what are your thoughts? What are the conversations at Columbia?  Susan Stone: Because you could be a well-intentioned administrator, but say. I have my own family and I have an obligation to follow the law. I don't wanna unwittingly put myself at risk of being prosecuted.  Kristina Supler: Well, and we know so many students look up to their professors or have very close relationships there and there's trust. Kristina Supler: So, I mean, Terry, what are your thoughts? . Terry McGovern: First of all, there's some other simple things like exclusionary housing policies that we're gonna see more pregnant college students. There's that issue? Just a simple one, but I think we are in kind of a crazy time in terms of what is legal and what is not mm-hmm as you just articulated. Terry McGovern: Nobody knows. I feel the opponents of access to abortion or, and, and the range of reproductive health services are trying everything they can to criminalize those who do anything to protect access. So I wouldn't ever, de-legitimize the fears of administrators at institutions. On the other hand, we can't just give in to this kind of mentality. I mean, these are healthcare services. These are young people who are extremely vulnerable. I think what's happening is people are getting together. Experts are getting together and are giving their best judgment about risk of prosecution, but there is always gonna be some risk here. Terry McGovern: There's risk that they may be sued. There's risk, but they probably won't win. I say that crossing both fingers. Mm-hmm because as we know, we're looking at Oklahoma, uh, South Dakota and Wisconsin and it's a county by county. You have to look at who the prosecutors are, who the judges are, who elected them. Terry McGovern: So it's really complicated to predict whether something will be found to be illegal or in violation of a bounty law pro provision or something else. Not a simple thing as you well understand. Mm-hmm  Susan Stone: I wanna switch gears to a whole different topic. Related to this, obviously, because it's something that has, I'll be honest with you. Susan Stone: I didn't sleep last night and it kept me up all night. So our practice, we do a lot of special education law, and we represent little ones who need 5 0 4 plans and IEPs. And, and I have a. Not so secret passion. I love preschool. Okay. I, I loved being the mom who dropped off at preschool. I loved everything about having a preschooler. Susan Stone: I just think there it's just a magical age. I also am so worried about young girls having to drop out of college. And I'm wondering with the President Biden's expanded definition of pregnancy within Title IX, is it an argument out there to say, okay, colleges, you have an obligation to allow those mothers who give birth. Susan Stone: Those babies should be able to live in the dorm with their mother. You should provide daycare so they can attend class. You should also, I wanna make sure those babies are included within the university health insurance policy. So when they have that ear infection or they need their vaccinations, will those colleges have to create special dorms for mothers and fathers mm-hmm to live and raise their child to see that these young women do not have to drop outta college. I mean, I'm sick about this.  Susan Stone: I love babies. I can't wait to be a grandmother. I have a daughter getting married and my daughter is supposed to go off to graduate school. And I just wanna make sure that all of these states that have said that this is illegal, that especially the state institutions are ready for these babies. And don't just kick these women to the curb.  Terry McGovern: No, absolutely. I mean, we know that student parents are 10 times less likely to graduate. There's so much evidence of the bad economic consequences of young women having babies during college. So of course, if, Let's just go back to reality here. Terry McGovern: Mississippi has the highest infant mortality rate in the country. It has one of the, the third highest maternal mortality rate during pregnancy. These states that are taking the lead on banning abortion or criminalizing abortion, or creating bounty hunting are not states that have invested at all in kind of the welfare of women and children. Terry McGovern: Mississippi's foster care system has like 111 outstanding violations for abuses. Oh, oh my gosh. So I wanna say that there's not evidence of kind of an, a real dedication to taking care of any women and girls in the state. Let alone those oncologists. So I think we do have to push, push the colleges to, to step up here and, provide the necessary services. Terry McGovern: But I just wanna inject a very serious note of hypocrisy about the kind of dedication to, shutting down people's access to abortion. But not a dedication to, reducing these horrible health outcomes for women and girls.  Susan Stone: would you think though, that the change in title nine or the section 5 0 4, the rehabilitation act or title two of the ADA though, would mandate more accommodations? Terry McGovern: I would absolutely think so. I would absolutely think so in this shifting context, and I think that's the path that many are going to take now, and it makes total sense to me and. I know, there's a lot of people working to actually, provide greater protection in the regulations, even around HIPAA medical records. Terry McGovern: Right. We have got to go back and look at the ADA and all of, in all of these different contexts and strengthen the protections. So just for a second, HIPAA there's greater protection and medical records in the context of mental health or drug use, we need that level of protection in reproductive health, on the ADA issues. Terry McGovern: I think we absolutely have to to use the APA in this context to establish rights.  Kristina Supler: Question for you. Is it possible. One day, the Dobbs decision will be overruled. Do you think a different composition of the Supreme courts might do away with this decision? And, and if so, how far off do you think that is? Terry McGovern: Interestingly we've been working a lot like it with countries where it was criminalized and then. Basically was not. So Ireland, Mexico and what goes on is that they criminalize abortion and horrible things happen. Like, just like we're reading about every day. Terry McGovern: There's confusion about miscarriages. There's 10 year olds who are forced to, go to term and their bodies can't take it. All of these things play out and you see public opinions start to shift. So we've seen in a lot of countries, a flip. Which I have to say is hopeful. I don't think as we well know, the public opinion is not in support of what SCOTUS has done here. Terry McGovern: Right. I think that, to me, when they allowed the Texas law to take effect. Which, invited bounty hunting. That to me said there was no reason in the room. So I do think that, there are plenty of Republican judges who do not support the approach that SCOTUS has taken here. So I do think, yes, absolutely. Terry McGovern: If the composition of the court changes what we have is a very extremist. Right now. So I do, I do really hope that this could be reversed when the composition of the court changes, which we know can happen when you least expect it. Susan Stone: Yeah. It's not always predictable. One of my favorite courses in law school was a Supreme court seminar. Susan Stone: And I appreciate that seminar at nobody knows the future of the court. And justices have flip flopped.  Kristina Supler: That's right. It's people don't have the static position throughout their entire careers. So, you know, we'll have to see what the future holds and, hopefully with lobbying and activism and, and people expressing their opinions and becoming more informed on the issue as a whole, that might foster some change. Susan Stone: Kristina yesterday brought a, as we were preparing for this podcast recently read that Yale and Princeton took a neutral position on this issue. I'm not, I don't know if you've read about this. Terry McGovern: No.  Susan Stone: And basically stating that the schools will abide by the law, the state a very careful and I would say political position. Susan Stone: What is your reaction? How should universities publicly respond?  Terry McGovern: I think universities should be supportive of, bodily, autonomy, right? Period. There's so much public health evidence. This isn't even slightly controversial. Criminalizing abortion only really leads to poor health outcomes, particularly for the college student group. Terry McGovern: So if these institutions care about the welfare of their student, They should not be neutral on this point. It is a, it is going to disproportionately impact their students. So I don't see how you can be neutral. So I have to say, you know, you saw, we were able to, or maybe you didn't see, we were able to get the vast majority of deans, of schools, of public health to, to sign a letter urging SCOTUS not to overturn Roe. All of the medical associations stand behind the right to abortion, right? So I don't under understand why these institutions would take this position. And  Kristina Supler: in your opinion and your experience on, on college campuses, what's what can college students do today to really have their voices heard and to foster change? Kristina Supler: What can students do who are just sitting there feeling helpless?  Susan Stone: And I wanna clarify this question too. Not just students on public campuses that have more first amendment protection, but can we focus on students who might be at private campuses and states where abortion is legal? What can they do?  Terry McGovern: I am happy. I'm smiling because I had a, a little war room of students all summer. We have so many students coming out of the woodwork to say, we, what can we do? How can we do it? So I think that I've seen our students do everything from. Volunteering and staffing, transportation services in states where abortion is now illegal to. Terry McGovern: Doing podcasts, one of our, doing poetry around their feelings about this decision. I have been so moved by the kind of depth of upset of these young women. They are freaked out about their futures and it has really shifted how they think about their sexual. Terry McGovern: As well. What I see happening is a lot of outreach, a lot of activism students organizing to make sure medication abortion is available on the campus that they're on. The students that are in that Ohio school are organizing campaigning. So I'm seeing more activism than I've seen out of students since the time I've been a professor, which is very hopeful. Terry McGovern: There are so many different things they can do. One thing that they're doing for me on a daily basis is research research, like really digging into what judges are ruling. How in this county are the medical records being treated when there's an attempt to criminalize. I'm working with a group of volunteer law students who are painstakingly looking at judicial records in states where there's some real risk of people being prosecuted doing research on, what about providers? Terry McGovern: You know, as a public health person, it it's horrifying to me to think that we'd say to a doctor, don't write something down on a medical record, but what needs to be written down on a medical record for the medical care. Right. And what is there that's extra that could only lead to a prosecution. Terry McGovern: So. Sadly, we're in the, the logistics stage of trying to figure out how what's the best way to protect people. So there's actually so much for students to do all over the place. And I think it makes them feel much better to do it. So you should see this abortion tracker that our students have created. Terry McGovern: It's got every possible per mutation, adolescent consent, et cetera. So, I just think that's where we get the hope looking at how these young people are responding to this and they're, they are not gonna leave this alone. Susan Stone: Christina, I just wanna throw something back to you. Look, we deal with parents from across the spectrum as to how they feel. Sex. Mm-hmm some parents teach abstinence and want abstinence, and some parents are much more communicative about sex, but we know sex goes wrong because we wouldn't have a career. Kristina Supler: Would we sad?  Terry McGovern: But true. so  Susan Stone: Terry, what would be good solid advice for a parent of either a high school or. College student with regard to planning, should it change or should it be the same good advice that it always is? We're a condom. If you have a son and put your daughter on the pill and make sure they have what they need before they go off to college and make sure you transmit your family values, what do you think? Terry McGovern: I think that's all great. I also think that, the advice should be that no matter how much abstinence training, like there's tons of evidence that no matter what people college students have sex and no matter what there are unintended pregnancy. And again, that can be everything from power imbalance to a broken. Terry McGovern: Right. So then you have to think about what happens if that happens. And now that is a very, very complicated question in lots of states, Oklahoma, Texas, et cetera, et cetera. So I do think that it has changed the picture considerably, even if you're against, you never wanna think about your college age student having sex. Terry McGovern: You've gotta think about the possibility. If they're a girl that they could get pregnant, if they're a boy that they could be responsible for a pregnancy and it's, it's going to be very complicated to figure out what to do next. So I think. No matter how much you don't wanna think about it, you really do need to think about it. Terry McGovern: If my daughter is in Texas and she gets pregnant, what's the plan, right? What's the plan. Because it is something that happens constantly.  Susan Stone: Is the plan more complicated in many ways, if you have a son?  Terry McGovern: I, I have a son and I think it's comp I. From the minute this decision came down, he's in Ohio, I've talked about this to him. Think about how the picture has changed. Terry McGovern: You need to be super careful, super responsible, and you need to think about if something goes wrong and you're part of a pregnancy. What is the plan? What is the plan? Because I think that's, it is a very different picture. And obviously, also I'm saying. It's unclear where they get services now that's being fought out. Terry McGovern: So there's a lot more to think about than there was.  Kristina Supler: I think that's, it's really interesting to hear that because Susan and I, we, when we talk to parents and students and we give lectures on, on the issues of consent. We talk a lot about the importance of communication in sex. And too often today we're seeing students not have communication. Kristina Supler: And this now it sounds like what you're saying is, is communication is even more important and central to the issue of sex and how relationships can unfold.  Terry McGovern: Absolutely. I mean, I think it absolutely needs to be thought about and communicated, right? Because this is not, these are not what if scenarios, these are true things and something like, I, I watch my son really let it, sink in. Terry McGovern: If there's an unintended pregnancy, you. What do you do? Where do you go? You're now not clear that you can even go on campus. What's the plan. Are you thinking about that? College students are not thinking about those things. So I think it is very important to think about and talk about. And I do hear that a lot from, the students, the female students are thinking about it what is this? So the boys should be thinking about it too. Right.  Susan Stone: Do you think that in some states, young women will withhold the information from their partner so they can make, so they can't be stopped. I'm just questioning that. Would that be an, uh, unintended consequence that a, a male would be deprived of knowledge?  Terry McGovern: It could be for sure. Terry McGovern: I mean, if you're, if you inject fear and criminalization into this decision, you're gonna get all kinds of strange behavior. This is why we didn't want criminalization in this already complicated terrain. So I think you're gonna get all kinds of terror driven decisions, including probably in some cases not to disclose out of fear. Terry McGovern: Which is of course, obviously what goes on a lot, which leads to all these harmful behaviors, pregnant people who don't wanna be pregnant, being scared and thinking, let me take matters into my own hands, right? Mm. Because you can't really get information and how am I gonna get the money to get a different state? Terry McGovern: And I can't have this baby. Right. So you have to think about a young person. I know you all, that's who you work with, but. It's really difficult to be a young person today. Just even with everything that's going on in the world, and now you're injecting this kind of terror around what if the condom breaks and I'm pregnant. Terry McGovern: And there is some crazy law that I, my provider can be recorded and a private citizen can report me to, it's not like the students don't know all this stuff. They have a vague sense of it. And it's terrifying now. So I'm very much afraid that it's gonna lead to all kinds of kind of rash decisions. Terry McGovern: Unintended consequences will be all over the  Susan Stone: place. I'll tell you what, I'm predicting that a lot of parents of college students are gonna be called upon to. Make parent babies and, parents who were thinking they had their retirement set are not gonna be in a position to, but they might have to fund and take care of that next generation. Kristina Supler: Terry you've given us so much to think about today and, and so much really invaluable information. Any parting words or anything you wanna share with our listeners  Susan Stone: or anything we didn't ask you that you wish we would've asked  Terry McGovern: you? You One thing that I am really noticing that, um, the students are really deeply disturbed by is these kind of lack of exceptions for incest, rape or to preserve the life of the mother or the confusion around that. Terry McGovern: I do wanna say that it appears to me that the impact of this decision on young people is that our lives aren't worth much. And that is that's heartbreaking, upsetting thing. That's why. Frankly, it's been uplifting and amazing to have all these young people here doing, responding to Roe, doing all this stuff because we've really unleashed something that is very disturbing. Terry McGovern: I, I say we, we didn't, but the court has. So I think we all, all of us parents need to pay a lot of attention to obviously we do, but the mental health consequences of all this stuff on our young people, as they're just trying to find their way and figure it out and I don't know, I find it just very unfortunate that this set of, terrorizing, criminalization provisions have been injected into this very complex time in their lives. Susan Stone: Thank you. I, I. I heavily, there's the emotion in preparing for this podcast, the gratitude, and really the honor that you agreed to do this podcast and the thoughtfulness in which you provided responses to our questions is deeply appreciated.  Kristina Supler: Thank you, Terry. 

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Randy Rohde, the founder of 38 Digital Market.  They discuss social media and how it has emerged to have a prevalent influence in the lives of college students and post-college.  The conversation includes proper social media etiquette that both parents and their children need to follow, how to traverse social media mishaps and using social media to your child's advantage. Links: KJK Student Defense Show Notes: (01:39) Addressing online harassment and its ramifications: How the pandemic spurred about an entirely new service for their law firm (04:04) An essential summer activity parents should require their children to do: audit their social media (05:10) Playing detective: Why every parent needs to be vigilant in an ever-changing landscape that is social media  (06:16) Why there's no such thing as privacy in the digital age and parents need to act within the parameters of their control (09:16) What both parents and children should be proactive about to avoid their college plans from becoming derailed (10:32) Social media and college applications: how to tip the scale in your child's behavior (11:28)  Why you social media followers can be your worst enemy during college application (13:19) How publishing your views on certain topics and issues on social media can have dire consequences (16:19) Warning: Objects in pictures can be more incriminating than they appear.  (17:19) Taboo photos and videos that no child should ever take in the first place (18:51) Why sending nudes can send you to jail (21:39) Approaches parents can utilize to initiate the conversation about the dangers of taking and engaging with nude photos  (24:00) The first amendment and how it works in public and private schools (26:32) Why parents need to have real conversations with their children about the code of conduct and school policies (28:39) What would my employer think? Why students as well as adults need to consider their careers when publishing anything online  (29:38) Easy Rule of Thumb When Knowing What Not to Post  (32:21) Maximizing social media to your child's or your own advantage (34:30) How to properly address and rectify social media mishaps Transcript: Randy Rohde: Hi, this is Randy Rohde. Really excited to join Kristina and Susan, once again on Real Talk Conversations and Susan Stone, Kristina Supler from K J K Student and Athlete Defense. And today's show we're gonna really hit on a conversation topic I think is, uh, very timely, very important, especially in today's environment. Randy Rohde: We're gonna talk about social media and the impact that social media has on so many aspects of our lives, but specifically college students and post-college what that means. But before we start going down that avenue. Because this subject actually falls into this particular practice of your law firm reputation management. Randy Rohde: Both of you are highly experienced reputation management attorneys. Can you explain, first of all, what is that? What does that mean? Reputation management. And why did you decide that you wanted to pursue and offer that as a service in the area of law that you practice.  Susan Stone: Hi, Randy. It's always awesome being with you because you ask the best questions. Susan Stone: I would say this aspect of being reputation management attorneys found Kristina and me. Ah, we were in the middle of the pandemic and everybody was glued to their computers.  Kristina Supler: And phones  Susan Stone: and phones and kids, obviously they weren't going to school. They weren't playing sports. They weren't outside. They were living and breathing on their social media. Susan Stone: And all of a sudden we had a couple student discipline cases, especially with younger students where students would say, uh, make comments on their social media that were deemed threatening or racist. Or homophobic or anti harassing in some way. Yep. Harassing. And we had to deal with those discipline cases. Susan Stone: And at the same time we had people hiring us because their college acceptances were revoked because students were reporting to the college that a student was supposed to attend about some offensive social media and colleges were sending letters out saying. Sorry, not sorry. You are not welcome here in the fall. Susan Stone: From that Kristina and I went , we've gotta deal with this. And so from there, that aspect of our business was born. Kristina Supler: It it's been interesting, Randy, the way it's taken off also, I mean, We get calls from all over the country to help individuals to just wind up in, in sticky situations, let's say because of unintentional, inadvertent, sometimes intentional and calculated comments and actions taken online. Kristina Supler: And it's really remarkable. The ripple effect, one act in connection with social media the bigger implications.  Randy Rohde: You work with so many different age groups, but in your particular practice in working with title IX cases, both. So students, parents, professors, faculty members I guess right now, this particular kind of time of the year in the middle of summer here we are lot of different things, but it probably doesn't matter what time of the year it is, but. Randy Rohde: When we're thinking about social media right now, and we're thinking about students and we're saying, Hey, this could be a good time to clean up social media. Do students need to be mindful of this and what they post and how they post this information?  Susan Stone: So summer is the perfect time for parents to require their students to conduct a social media audit. Susan Stone: We think woo it's summer, we can say, or do what we want on our phones and in our social media. But that couldn't be further than the truth because that's when people have more time to pay attention to other people. And what might be offensive to other people's social media early on in our practice, we did a whole podcast on cancel culture. Susan Stone: And I think that cancel culture occurs in the summer more than any other time, because people are not busy with homework exams, extracurricular activities. So now that everybody's a little bit more relaxed and I say, Have more time on their hands. It's a good time to, for parents to say, I wanna see what's on your Instagram. Susan Stone: I wanna see what's on your TikTok and Kristina, wouldn't you say every year we learned about a different chat room, a different app that we didn't know existed, where people are talking,  Kristina Supler: oh, it's amazing. The way the social media platforms evolve and expand and come in and out of popularity. Kristina Supler: You know, we tell parents of course, You must, must, must, must conduct a social media audit with your child, clean up the social media, but also be mindful of, you know, you gotta do a little bit of sleuthing because there's the fake accounts, the accounts they don't necessarily admit to you that they have. Kristina Supler: And it's important to just poke around and know is it Instagram? Is it TikTok? Is it various chat rooms on discord. I mean, you name it Twitter. It, it's interesting to see the certain types of speech sometimes in, in groups that form on different platforms. And so just cuz you have one child that might be really active on Instagram, let's say another child might be more in the online chat rooms or TikTok. Randy Rohde: Go ahead, Susan, were you?  Susan Stone: Yeah, I wanna add to this, that the social media audit is what's within the control of the parent. We had a really interesting case came in, was it a couple years ago, Kristina? About the one where the kid was with a group of friends feeling like. They were in a safe space, not knowing that some really offensive comments. Susan Stone: Do you remember that? Kristina Supler: I do. And that, gosh, that was a heartbreaking case for so many reasons. But, I think the, the long and short of it is, is. Students and adults, it's actually a lesson for grownups as well. You never know when and how you're being recorded. And then ultimately how that content will be distributed. Susan Stone: Yeah, let's backtrack. So our listeners can gain some insight in this story. There was a situation where a bunch of friends were having a sleepover, very normal, correct. You know, That's what students do. That's what happened. And, uh, one student was making comments that was really meant for the friends who were there at this party, who I believe they thought they were with their besties, their BFFs, as they would call 'em. And not understanding that everything was being captured on a phone. Susan Stone: And later what was said was transmitted and it did lead to student discipline. It did, did lead to ostracization from other peers and it had a ripple effect. and it was sad because while the student should not have been making certain comments, we could debate that. Okay. But we've all behind closed doors when we were with people, maybe our spouse, maybe your boyfriend, maybe your girlfriend, maybe what you think is your best friend. Say things that are not meant for the public. Susan Stone: Well, look, well, I I'd like to say today nothing is private. So parents do the social media O audit, but you also have to say, is there anything else that was captured that you think you know about that we have to deal with? Susan Stone: Do we need to reach out to certain parents and say, Hey, can you have your student remove this from their phone? And you may not, that's beyond your control, but you have to try.  Randy Rohde: Hmm. Hmm. That's really great advice. I think a lot of times as a parent myself, I don't think as much about, Hey, can I go and talk to other parents about, and can you do a looksie and see what was communicated or shared amongst friends of my kids. Randy Rohde: So you mentioned about a podcast that you had previously and another one that kind of pops up for me is one just a few episodes ago, actually about navigating college applications. Is this something meaning social media use and posts? Is this something that colleges are paying attention to now in their, I guess, selection processes? Randy Rohde: Have you seen this pop up more and more?  Kristina Supler: Oh, I'm so glad you're asking that question, Randy. Because the answer is yes. And parents and students should understand that and be aware. We are seeing it with growing frequency where schools, high schools and colleges rescind acceptances, or maybe don't offer admission because private school, private high schools to clarify. Kristina Supler: Yeah. Thank you. Important points. Because of contents that the student has posted online. It happens more often than one would think. And sometimes we've seen colleges, rescind acceptance just a few weeks before the school year's supposed to start. And know, if you think about what's going on in a household, the excitement leading up to your child, going off to college freshman year it's such an exciting time. Kristina Supler: It's a nerve-wracking time because there it's such a change. It's a transition time. And then to have the rug pulled out from under the students, so to speak at the final hour because of again, social media postings likes whatever. It's devastating to the student. It causes a lot of turmoil. Kristina Supler: Decisions need to be made fast. Plans changed. And it really can jeopardize the student's future.  Susan Stone: I also wanna refer back to that podcast. It was a great PCA. We spoke to DaVita AMR about the fact that colleges are going test optional. And should you take the SAT? Should you take the ACT look, it's getting really competitive and it's always been competitive to get into college. Susan Stone: The last thing a student needs when building an acceptance is. A horrible blight on their record. Mm-hmm because all things are equal. You have two 35s on an ACT, you have two captains of whatever sports teams. Both students have great grades. College admissions officers do look at social media. Susan Stone: And if there's social media, that is not, appropriate. Well, who do you think they're gonna take?  Kristina Supler: And I just wanna clarify or add, add to Susan's point. I, I don't at all have the sense that it's these college admissions officers who are pseudo detectives, trolling the internet to get the aha. Kristina Supler: Gotcha. We don't want you it's to Susan's point. It's so competitive now. You have so many talented students out there. And so when all things are equal, what might tip the scale slightly in favor of one student or another, it might be social media, a and something else that we've encountered isn't even the college admissions office. Kristina Supler: Actively searching the student's social media, but rather Susan, do you remember that other case where it was ideal high school classmates who were tweeting at a college regarding an incoming student saying, basically take a look at this, take a look at this. You should be aware of this student and there. Kristina Supler: Really significant fallouts that unfolded. And that was because other students put the issue on the radar of the admissions office.  Susan Stone: It's so easy to flag colleges today. It's a tweet.  Randy Rohde: Yeah. Yeah. It's so amazing. That is an amazing an astounding example that you gave because I was going through all different kinds of scenarios, who, who in a col in what college has any kinda manpower to like sit and stream through thousands of students, social media profiles. Right. It's crazy because there's these private groups, discord, telegram, all of this stuff that parents may not even be aware of, I'm thinking, but. The example that you gave is absolutely it's the people who the students may know or have they have access to that can send out. Because accessibility is so, easy in today's world through social media that, yeah, I,  Susan Stone: yeah, Randy, I really lean towards parents telling their kids to be very cautious about what they post. Yeah. Not to give you a war, another war story, because war stories can get so boring. And I know that lawyers love to give war stories, but we do remember that case that dealt with a student who thought that she was actually providing positive social media and it was completely perceived by the reader as being insensitive and perhaps even racist. Susan Stone: So. You know, be cautious when you're telling your student, if you're gonna take a position and there's a lot of issues out there today to take a position that your message is going to be received in the way you intend the message.  Randy Rohde: Hmm. That, uh, well, that's always a good life lesson, regardless whether on social media or not on social, um, So I you've seen a lot of different things. Randy Rohde: What are, is there a list in your mind, like of common issues that you may find.  Susan Stone: Well, we're gonna give you a list and go back and forth on what you  Kristina Supler: think is important. Good. So something that comes to mind immediately be careful what you like a like is construed as an endorsement of a certain idea or concept. Kristina Supler: So thinking that something is funny, isn't. And liking something because, oh, it's funny. Not so to other readers in the audience, they might think that what you've liked are your own personal beliefs. Parents really need to talk to their kids about that.  Susan Stone: Be careful what you share and how you spread other people's ideas around. That also can be viewed as an endorsement. Susan Stone: I wanna talk about a really important case that we had.  Kristina Supler: Another war story. You're sharing another war story.  Susan Stone: You're right. I'm sorry, but I've gotta share this. Yeah, I've gotta share this. We represented two young men who were accused of sexual assault, falsely. And it's spread around through social media and a campus. Susan Stone: And in fact, they, the two young men went to a party and neither, Even really engaged at all with other students, much less committed sexual assault. It was all rumor and Kristina and I really launched complaints on behalf of our clients. And one of the areas of cross examination was. Well, you weren't at the party, were you? Susan Stone: And many of the students that actually took part in unlawful dosing of the client and defamation all admitted that they hadn't gone, but they heard. And I said, but you shared the information didn't you with others. So I just wanna be cautious that just because you read something on social media, it doesn't mean it's true. Susan Stone: It doesn't mean you should like it and it doesn't mean you should share it.  Kristina Supler: Another tip that students, parents seem to speak with their students about really be mindful, not only of what you are saying or doing in whatever the post is, but what's in the background. Right. So, oh, that's  Susan Stone: good. Susan Stone: Yeah. I forgot that one. That's why we keep her around. Right. Randy  Kristina Supler: We've. Had more and more than one occasion, let's put it that way. You know, there can be an incriminating photo and the, and this person didn't even really appreciate why it was incriminating because of what was in the background of the picture. Kristina Supler: People drinking, alcohol, underage, smoking marijuana, other substances, you name it or just in a place that they're not supposed to be. Time and time again, students unknowingly incriminate themselves through their own pictures.  Susan Stone: Mm-hmm. I'm gonna direct something that mostly not always is a problem with, I would say younger boys around the middle school age. Susan Stone: No pictures holding toy guns.  Kristina Supler: Oh, that that's a good one too. Oh,  Susan Stone: or bullets? Yeah, a SP . Yeah, especially today. That is a one way ticket to a suspension or a potential expulsion. I understandably school administrators are terrified of shootings as administrators should be. Sure. Sure. And so it is never well taken to post images with anything that could be perceived as. Susan Stone: Endorsing weapons and believe it or not every year we have kids who post pictures and they're saying, but it was a toy.  Kristina Supler: It was a joke. Yeah. Another point really be thoughtful about what you film. And who you share it with? We've certainly seen on a regular basis as well, videos that were maybe sent privately or in a group chat that somehow end up plastered all over social media and on the internet and that content, oh, it can live forever. Kristina Supler: I mean, I won't bore you with legal. Talk about the ways we can get content removed, but we have a lot of success in that realm. But it's not guaranteed and some stuff on the internet really can live forever.  Susan Stone: So my law partners being super classy. Can I just state the obvious no nude pics? Susan Stone: okay. I really wanna say, just because you're dating someone, if you are a minor, do not take and send a nude pic of yourself.  Randy Rohde: Don't can we just be that  Susan Stone: blunt about this?  Randy Rohde: sure. Hey, we're having a real conversation. Yes.  Kristina Supler: Real Talk with Susan and Kristina. Susan Stone: No nude pics. Kristina cut her teeth early on in her career in dealing with child pornography. Susan Stone: So I, I would love for you to talk about what are the repercussions of this. Yeah,  Kristina Supler: I think that it's an important point, albeit unpleasant, of course. And in, on a more serious note child pornography, generally speaking, or sexually suggestive nude photos of anyone under the age of 18 and I'm speaking broadly, cuz of course every state and jurisdiction might have different iterations of the law. Kristina Supler: So it's, it's trading nude pictures among freshmen in high school, 15 year olds might technically be a violation of child pornography statutes. And we see these cases all the time and parents and the students are shocked. And I will tell you, it's also, it's a really, it's a big mess for school administrators. Kristina Supler: The legal implications are very significant. It triggers criminal investigations. It's it's just a big. It's a big mess. I don't know how else to put it with very serious long-term implications that oftentimes it can even happen. And I wanna be really clear with both parties, consenting to trading, nude picks or videos or whatnot. Kristina Supler: But that doesn't matter because inevitably we see stuff get passed on and boom, before you know it it's all over the school and it's just. Do not take nude photos, nude content don't trade. And if someone sends it to you, delete it right away and say, I don't want this, please. Don't send this to me. Randy Rohde: All right. Good point.  Susan Stone: And do not send it to your buddies. Yeah, delete it.  Randy Rohde: I have a question. I don't know. You may have more points in regards to about posting that you wanna share, but I wanna take a pause on that just for a second, because you're, you mentioned something that I think as a parent really like, wow. Randy Rohde: You know, some of these conversations for parents can be very difficult. Like I'm just thinking in my son, do you have, have you been taking nude pictures of your girlfriend? Right? I mean, that's not a an easy conversation necessarily to have, do you have some suggestions maybe? Having some of those difficult conversations in regards to social media and posting and that stuff that you could share for parents, how can you, how can you guide parents? Susan Stone: My mother used to say to me all the time "Better you cry than I cry." And when is where's it wisdom comes to the receipt of naked pictures or creating what is considered child pornography, parents have to be aware. They bought the phone, they pay for the phone, it's their phone. And wouldn't you rather be mean upfront and be overbearing and have the conversation. Susan Stone: This is not gonna be tolerated than have law enforcement knock on your door. I mean, Really frightening. And there are police units that monitor online behavior and look for people who have child pornography.  Kristina Supler: I think that one of the points that we encourage parents as we get this question a lot, right? Kristina Supler: So like we're professionals. We're lawyers in the trenches wrestling with these tough legal issues. Every day we talk about, we joke. We talk about sex all day, every day. So, oh my gosh. It's like, okay, here we are. Again, whatever. We don't even think twice about it, but Randy, you raise, you raise very good points. Kristina Supler: That many parents would be totally mortified or just. Intimidated by the cop topic, or maybe it just, the topic doesn't fit within the family's own, religious views, cultural, sensitivities, whatever. Because everyone has different. Different values in ways they handle things within their family. Kristina Supler: But a as a general matter, I think a way for parents to, to think about it, the topic and start to make some inroads with their children is to just come at it from a perspective in many respects of empathy, how would it make you feel if this happened to you? And so that way it's not so much, are you doing this or you better not be, you know, it's not accusatory or Basically inviting incrimination, but rather just encourage your child to start thinking about certain issues, these headaches, these war stories, Susan and I shared parents can use that and say, I listened to this podcast with these crazy women. Kristina Supler: I know you would never do this, but if this happened in your friend group, like what would you do? And sort of start the dialogue that way  Susan Stone: I, I wanna add to this, that. There's a difference between speech that has first amendment protections, just because you're allowed to say something. Doesn't mean, you should say something and doesn't mean there can't be repercussions, especially with regard to private institutions. Susan Stone: And that is where we get a lot of confusion from parents. So for example, Brandy, lovey. Okay. Famous United States Supreme court case. Young girl didn't make the cheerleading team and went on her social media, basically saying F the school F everything F cheerleading and the United States Supreme court said she had the right to say this and the school did not have the right to suspend her. Susan Stone: Now that is true. A public school cannot. Susan Stone: If we think back to a famous case that the tinker case that was where students wore arm bands, protesting the Vietnam war. There's famous Supreme court language that students do not shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech at the schoolhouse gate. Students have first amendment right in public schools. Susan Stone: Let's all agree, because that's just true. What happens if a student goes to a private school. There is no first amendment protection at a private high school. So we get calls all the time where students get expelled for similar speech F this teacher. And we say, and they say, but we have a first amendment. Kristina Supler: My child was just exercising his first amendment right. Her first amendment right. Sure. They shouldn't have maybe said that, but it's this is, it's just the constitution. This is America. We say, well, so  Randy Rohde: you're saying they rescind those rights. Once they decide to go to a private institution. Susan Stone: When you go to a private institution, you have to pay close attention to the school's policy. Susan Stone: And so certain speech that would be protected in a public institution, a public high school, a public college don't have the same protections at a private institution. So Brandy levy may be able to in a public school, say F the cheerleading coach. but in a private setting that might be a ticket to a discipline,  Kristina Supler: Which reminds me again, this is something perhaps a little tedious and annoying, kids aren't gonna like this, but some are particularly for rising freshmen, whether it's high school or college, it's a good opportunity for parents to talk to their child about just understanding what a code of conduct is, what a student handbook is and how the student has to follow those rules.  Kristina Supler: And look, I love that Kristina says approach it with empathy because in a perfect world, that is the right way to do it. Susan Stone: But I would say to parents, you know, your kid, you know, the right way to approach your student, but especially students and even wonderful straight A students who are excellent at school students get wonky in those first relationships. So that's where you have to have the conversation. I know you love this person, and I know that's very real today, but you cannot show your love by sending naked pictures or  Susan Stone: receiving. Kristina Supler: Yeah, I guess I would say I, I agree with Susan's point know your kid, but I'm also going to push back in the sense that time. And again, Time. And again, we, my child wouldn't do that. Oh, oh, that's the kid up the streets. That's that naughty neighbor. So, and so that's the kids at the public school and you, the private school doesn't have these issues and I'm telling you, the minute you exclude a certain group of kids, type of student, whatever you're wrong, it is gonna be that. Kristina Supler: So parents take the blinders off. It absolutely could be your kid who would do the thing that you find. So unimaginable.  Randy Rohde: So I wanna open back up the door in regards to the posting advice. So you, you already gave probably 4, 5, 6 really great suggestions any additional on your list.  Susan Stone: Well common sense. Kristina Supler: Yeah. Okay. At the end of the day, common sense.  Susan Stone: Just use good, common sense on what you wanna post. And you know, this isn't just for students. This is just good sense advice for everybody.  Kristina Supler: Because then look beyond college, or even in the middle of college, as students are thinking more about career planning and the employment context, prospective employers are probably in this day and age is gonna plug you into Google, search your name in the various platforms. And so again, think about how it could also impact employment stuff. And so to that end, think about also parents should talk to their students about privacy settings. Mm. That that's kind of a tip that occurred to me. Kristina Supler: We didn't mention. Susan Stone: Oh, that's a good one. Yeah. KWS. Privacy settings that is really important. You know, just not everything needs to be out there in the public eye. Not every picture of yourself on vacation needs to be shared.  Kristina Supler: Your friends might tag you untag yourself. If it's, someplace, maybe not the most flattering Susan Stone: Yeah. Let's talk about that. Spring break, summer break you're at the beach, you know, not everything you. Guzzling alcohol facing a bong. Whipping off that top of a bathing suit, not everything is meant for the public eye. So that's where I say common sense. Mm-hmm  Randy Rohde: I, I, I have to throw this out because my wife and I have talked about this a number of times and seeing what parents. Randy Rohde: Post in regard. Oh, I know to pick and my wife would be like all of a sudden throw scream post did. Yes. My wife's throwing out. Like, I can't believe this mom is posting this picture of her 14 year old daughter out there and likes and very revealing swim scene. I'm like, wow. And I'm like, yeah. Uh, that's crazy. Susan Stone: um, well look, we are all body positive. And we want everybody to have fun and everybody does love to share pictures of their children and the good times of family. And, and I'm not going to draw those lines. That is a parenting choice and a parenting decision, but certain lines we're gonna draw. Nothing naked. Susan Stone: Right. And what is naked? Let's define that. Okay. Breasts, buttocks, penises, and vagina. There you have it guys. . What about the fifth part? Randy Rohde: I crack myself. Oh, we got it. We got it all. Hey, this is Real Talk, right? excited. We got it. Um,  Susan Stone: This is why I work with her every day. Randy Rohde: Yes . So you mentioned this and you, you touched on, so you've given great tips and you brought this up and I. I wanna see if you wanna elaborate on this at all. So all of this certainly is great for prospective college students. Randy Rohde: Current students in schools, whether almost any grade level But you also mention job seekers, cuz I would think that a lot of this stuff is especially critical because if you are one of ten five candidates for a particular position in a company, that number is far fewer than the thousands that may be applying for admission into a college or into a private school. Randy Rohde: I would imagine they certainly would be out looking at social profiles for this.  Susan Stone: And by the way, your social media can also help you. Mm.  Kristina Supler: You know? Oh, that's a great point. Yeah. Susan Stone: I just wanna talk about the good usages. Yeah. Do catch your child doing something wonderful.  Kristina Supler: Yeah, actually, I'm so glad you said that, Susan, that that's excellent because we, you know, we've spent a good chunk of time now talking about the perils of social media, the don't and how dangerous and scary it can be and how it can change the trajectory of a student's future. Kristina Supler: But a lot of positive things can be communicated through social media as well. And so again, that's why it's so important for parents to just encourage their children, to be thoughtful and mindful about what they post, because it's not all bad. You can really showcase all of your positive activities and involvement and portray yourself in a really, really important way for whatever a goal might be that you're trying to accomplish. Susan Stone: And there's a lot of really important issues today out there. And I think that the world needs the youth of today to advocate for whatever position that they're taking. There are so many things going on in the world, whether it's the war in Ukraine, the environment. And so this is a chance for students to explore their own voice. Susan Stone: And so I'm not saying that you should stifle good speech, because there's so many important things that we want students to be engaging in. Right. And talking about, but make sure it's a position and make sure it's done well and well articulated. It's a good opportunity to show how thoughtful a student is. Randy Rohde: Right, right. Really good points. And as you, and I think rightfully so when you're talking about social media reputation, there's obviously. downside or negative side of that and the potential implications, but also very much so a positive side and what that can do in positioning you as a human being, as an individual. Randy Rohde: As we begin to kinda wind this down, anything that we missed or anything that you'd like to add that we haven't discussed.  Susan Stone: The only thing that I would add, and I really want Kristina's input in this is if something happens, don't panic, remove the social media and try to do some reputation repair. Susan Stone: If a student needs to apologize, I would say apologize quick and early. Yeah,  Kristina Supler: an apology can go a long way to repair a situation. We've done a lot of work over the years, assisting students and professionals with drafting, these apologies and you know, it's, it is the, the reputation management piece to assist with getting content removed drafting, apologies, and then just communicating. Kristina Supler: Messaging about a certain sticky issue. And again, we don't have to get into all the legal ticky tacky stuff, but there are ways we can fight and work and navigate to get stuff removed. So not all hope is lost. Good.  Randy Rohde: Good. As always so fun to talk with you and about the incredible world that you navigate in. Randy Rohde: And I just wanna tell the listeners, let them know we'll have, great detailed show notes and links to go connect with Susan and Kristina. But you can find them at student defense. Do. K J k.com. And they are spectacular extraordinary title IX attorneys at K JK student and athlete defense and always so fun. Randy Rohde: And thank you so much for sharing, I think and having a conversation about a very important topic today in today's world.  Kristina Supler: It's a pleasure, Randy. Thank you.  Susan Stone: Till we meet again.  Randy Rohde: Till we meet again and have another Real Talk Conversation, always fun. All right. Thank you ladies.

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Dr. Lauren Streicher, a Clinical Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology at Northwestern University's medical school, and the founder and medical director of the Northwestern Medicine Center for Menopause and the Northwestern Medicine Center for  Sexual Health.  They discuss sexual and reproductive health in college kids. The conversation includes prevention, infection and maintenance of Sexually Transmitted Infections (STI's), the myths behind contraceptives and how they actually benefit women, and how to empower women with education about sex, reproductive and gynecological health, and sexual pleasure. Links: Dr Lauren Streicher's Website (Click here) Inside Information: the Menopause Podcast (Click here) Show Notes: (00:38) How we crossed paths with Dr. Streicher and her amazing accomplishments to date (02:01) The irony between hot flashes and college (02:46) The surge of sexually transmitted diseases and infections…a.k.a. College (03:31) What measure should every mom and their child take to prevent contraction of STI's known to cause certain types of cancer? (06:11) A scary new trend of how college students have fallen victim to STI's (07:19) How this makeshift form of protection that is often ridiculed can allow women to safely enjoy oral sex…well for 15 seconds (08:10) Unraveling the mysteries of a female condom– yes, you read that correctly. (09:10) Saran wrap belongs in the kitchen, not on your lady parts  (09:52) The real solution to safe oral sex for women (that's FDA-approved) (11:50) How $6 can save you from a potentially life-long sexually transmitted infection  (12:34) Why not all sexually transmitted infections can be treated with just creams or at all (13:28) The best safety measure you can take to prevent a permanent battle with HPV (13:40) Unfortunately, there is no catch-all screening test for sexually transmitted diseases (15:37) Common misconceptions about emergency contraception (17:31) The scientific explanation of pregnancy and fertilization (18:40) A non-pill form of emergency contraception (19:10) The ancient alternative to Plan B pills (19:50) An over-the-counter, essential component of your child's college first-aid kit (21:14) News flash: You can still get pregnant after taking Plan B (21:42) Alternative forms of contraception with higher efficacies (22:36) The dwindling existence of access to safe abortions for unplanned pregnancies; 50% from failed contraception (23:52) A lesser known benefit of IUDs (24:20) Busting the myth that contraceptives like birth control pills  lead to infertility in women; they actually protect it (25:44) The effect of marijuana on reproductive health in both men and women  (26:52) Why in the end, money matters more than health; the explanation behind the lack of scientific studies on the effects of marijuana to a female's reproductive health (27:53) What is the most prevalent gynecological health issue facing women in their early twenties today? (28:20) An online resource young women can utilize for sex education and pleasure; basically everything our mothers didn't talk to us about (29:08) Female sexual pleasure and why it should not be overlooked (31:30)  Sex should never hurt period. (34:56) The sex talk that every mother should have with their daughter before sending them off to college Kristina Supler: Today we are so pleased to be joined by Dr. Lauren Streicher. Who's a clinical professor of obstetrics and gynecology at Northwestern University's Medical School. Dr. Streicher's also the medical director of the Northwestern Medicine Center for Menopause and the Northwestern Medicine Center for Sexual Medicine. Susan Stone: I just have to say, we are really excited. We worked with Dr. Streicher on a case where she gave us some gynecological expertise. There was an issue and we got to know her and it's an amazing colleague to have. She just released a book. Her recent books are Slip, Sliding Away, Turning Back the Clock on Your Vagina and Hot Flash Hell, a Gynecological Guide to Turning Down the Heat. Susan Stone: And as a woman in her fifties, I can tell you that's important. But she's also an expert on issues that would pertain to women in college, which is why we actually met her.  Kristina Supler: Yeah. It's been such a pleasure to Work with Dr. Streicher and review all of her books and her social media content. I should mention she's also the host of a podcast called Dr. Streicher's Inside Information, the Menopause Podcast. So for all of our listeners out there, parents who are listening to learn about what to talk to their college kids about. Check out Dr. Streicher's podcast as well.  Susan Stone: we get a double bang for our buck because typically our podcast is for our listeners of kids in college. Susan Stone: So if you think about it, Dr. Streicher, we're here to talk about health of college kids, but our listeners are their mothers who should turn onto your podcast. So welcome a board to Real Talk.  Dr. Lauren Streicher: Well, thank you. And, and of course your listeners are my listeners because isn't it just kind of strange how, when women have their first hot flash is also the time they're waving goodbye to their kid and redecorating their bedroom. Dr. Lauren Streicher: So true. because women, as you know, tend to put off having kids, and it is not unusual for a woman to have a family starting in her mid, late thirties, which means hot flashes in college. It's all goes together. That is  Susan Stone: the great tie in. Why don't we lead off with our first question that would really impact women going off to college. Susan Stone: What's new in the world of preventing diseases, anything new in that area?  Dr. Lauren Streicher: It's funny, you should ask, sexually transmitted infections is of course a big topic, which that issue starts long before someone goes off to college, you know, certainly in high school we addressing those issues, but there's no question that the numbers of sexually transmitted infections do go up in the twenties during the college years, because that's the time when young men and young women are exploring sexuality. Dr. Lauren Streicher: Very often having multiple partners and quite frankly, very often having too much to drink too often, which can sometimes lead to sexual activities that even people who have the best of intentions find that maybe they don't use the condom. They don't use the protection, they don't need. Do what they need to do. Dr. Lauren Streicher: So it is a time that stories going a day out well,  Susan Stone: and that's why we have a business. Right?  Dr. Lauren Streicher: So let me start why it talks about what's new in terms of sexually transmitted infection prevention. This isn't exactly new, but it bears repeating for parents that before you pack your kid off for college, make sure they have their HPV vaccine. Dr. Lauren Streicher: And we are talking both boys and girls, you know, a lot of people, they put it. For a variety of reasons when their kids are 11 or 12, it's kind of on the back burner. Maybe the pediatrician doesn't bring it up. Maybe they don't see a pediatrician anymore. And this is critically important because what we know is that if a woman gets the HPV vaccine, that she's going to be protected against 90% of strains of human papillomavirus. Dr. Lauren Streicher: Which of course are not only responsible for cervical cancer, but also vaginal cancers V our cancers, some head and neck cancers and the thing is, and also, yeah, and, and we have data coming out now because it's been around long enough that we're starting to see the fruit of that vaccine because it used to just be okay. Dr. Lauren Streicher: We have less girls with abnormal. Pap tests, but now we are seeing people, we're now 15 years later seeing less cervical cancers, less other cancers. And this is just as important for the boys as the girls. You know, a lot of times I'll get a parent who says, well, you know, that encourages sexual activity. Dr. Lauren Streicher: We know that it does not encourage sexual activity. And for the parents who say, my kid is not gonna be sexually active, you can think that, and, and maybe your kid won't be, but as you know, better than anybody, the rates of non-consensual sex are very high in, at college. And just like you wouldn't set your kid off to drive without putting on their seatbelt. Dr. Lauren Streicher: You shouldn't send them off without their HPV vaccine. So. For starters, even if you don't wanna have the conversation with your kid about it they need that HPV vaccine. It is critically important and it is FDA approved, of course, for both boys and girls, up to the age of 45, by the way, moms, for those of you who are single out there, and as you send your kid off, you're saying, okay, now it's my time. Dr. Lauren Streicher: Keep in mind that as you get out there, you wanna protect yourself as well. While it is not FDA approved for women over the age of 45. I give an HPV vaccine to any woman who asks I don't care how old she is because older guys have HPV too thought. I would just throw that in, even though it's a little bit, Hey, off  Susan Stone: topic, protect those moms out there. Susan Stone: Protect single mom.  Dr. Lauren Streicher: Well, truly when we think about this being a time of sexuality for your young adult, for a lot of people, especially single moms, this is the time that you say, okay, my turn, or even the people who are married or in long-term relationships, suddenly you're not worrying about the, the teenager lurking outside the door and sure. Dr. Lauren Streicher: They actually have a little bit more activity. But the thing that's new, that's really interesting. While anyone, any college student you talk to is certainly aware that condoms, um, will protect against sexually transmitted infections during intercourse. We know that there are a lot of sexual activities that have nothing to do with the penis going and the vagina. Dr. Lauren Streicher: And in fact, there are a lot of people that will avoid. Penile vaginal penetration specifically because they are worried about pregnancy or they are worried about an STI. So they'll do other things. And a lot of times what other things might involve is oral sex. So the problem of course, has always been, if you have a woman who is on the receiving end, Of getting oral sex from a male or female partner. Dr. Lauren Streicher: There's always the concern about the trans the genital oral transmission of sexually transmitted infections. And we're talking things like human papilloma, virus, herpes Even gonorrhea, even syphilis, you can transmit a lot through genital oral contact and you don't want to end up with an infection like that. Dr. Lauren Streicher: So what options does a young woman have to protect herself and to protect her partner? In the past, a woman was always told to use a dental dam. Now, now you have you ever. Seen a dental dam outside of your dental office. I  Kristina Supler: never one had to try and mention it.  Dr. Lauren Streicher: No, it's like, no, of course not. They're not gonna buy it. Dr. Lauren Streicher: They're not going use it. They, everyone hears about it and jokes about it's not gonna happen. So what's the alternative to the dental dam. Well, for the Martha Stewarts out there what you can do is you can take an UN lubricated condom. You can cut off the tip, you can cut open the condom, and now you've got a square of latex, which is gonna be impermeable. Dr. Lauren Streicher: So theoretically. For the highly motivated, you can then teach which work and spread it over the vulva. And it's never gonna happen. That's gonna last for about maybe 15 seconds before it falls off or gets pushed aside or whatever. So that's really not a solution. And then we have the female condom, which a lot of people haven't heard of. Dr. Lauren Streicher: And the female condom is basically an over the counter product, just like a male condom. Only this one goes inside the woman's vagina. And then there's a sheath, basically a tube with the ring at the end that goes outside on the VVA. And I know you're making a face. People can't see that, but I will tell everybody you're making a face and that's exactly. Susan Stone: I am you making a face going, does that cause up an infection?  Dr. Lauren Streicher: Well, I affection, but the face you're making is the same face young women make when I tell them about it, because they say, are you kidding? First of all, I'm not gonna, you know, find buy one of these things. I'm not gonna put it inside me. I'm not gonna hang it out, have it hanging out on my vagina, just to have the guys say, what's that. Dr. Lauren Streicher: So that's not gonna happen. And before we get onto what the real solution is, I also wanna mention that saran wrap is also not. An option. A lot of people, I know this is what's good. I mean, this is what's going on out. There is people are saying, okay, I don't wear nowhere to get a dental dam. They don't know about the condom thing and they saran wrap. Dr. Lauren Streicher: I've got it in my kitchen. It's easy. I'll grab it. So they take saran wrap, they spread it over their Volvo, but here's the problem. Wrap is made to go in microwaves. And what that means is it's porous. Hello? Hey, there's a little ports of entry for all those bugs. You're trying to keep out. So aside from the fact that it's very amusing, when you go to the store and you see a woman buying jumbo cran wrap, and you think, gee, I wonder what that's for. Dr. Lauren Streicher: It is not to prevent sexually transmitted infections. I have good news. What's the solution. The solution is there is a new product, actually, not a new product, but what's new is that the FDA has just sanctioned. It is actually protecting against sexually transmitted infections. And this product is a panty. Dr. Lauren Streicher: It is called Loral L O R a L. I do not work for these people. And basically what Loral is, is it was invented for the purpose of preventing sexually transmitted infections when a woman is receiving oral sex so that she doesn't give it to the giver who you're always grateful to the giver. You don't wanna give them something, right. Dr. Lauren Streicher: And you're not gonna get anything from the giver. So the way that this works is that these panties are made out of the same material as condoms. It's a latex panty, and they're kind of cute. They come in, very stretchy bikini style. It's, you know, you won't feel stupid wearing it cuz they actually are cute panties. Dr. Lauren Streicher: And the idea is that the. where is this panty? And it's very, very thin so that if someone is giving her oral sex, she still gets all the sensation. She can feel everything he or she who's giving can feel everything. But if there's anything lurking on her genitals or on the giver's tongue, it's not gonna get transmitted. Dr. Lauren Streicher: The panties are not looking. Not that  Susan Stone: we're Googling it everybody. And we see that it's, we're not getting paid either. I just learned about this.  Kristina Supler: Wow. Oh, look at this. We think it's about damn time undies were designed for pleasure of the, the pleasure of their wearer  Susan Stone: and it's $25 and vanilla scented and it's seamless. Susan Stone: So it's not gonna super stretch.  Dr. Lauren Streicher: So I, when I was talking to the company and, you know, I always get on my high horse about, you're not supposed to cover up normal genital odors because women are not supposed to smell like English gardens. And this whole idea is offensive to say that you have to put something on that has a different taster or smell, but in this case it's actually valid because they're what they're the purpose of the vanilla scent is to get rid of the latex taste and smell mm-hmm , you know, mm-hmm so it's not to cover. Dr. Lauren Streicher: The woman it's to cover up whatever, might be going on with the latex. So the, people block at the price, it's $6, a panty, but truth be told. There is you can't put a dollar value on not getting a sexually transmitted infection like HPV that you will be dealing with potentially for the rest of your life. Dr. Lauren Streicher: And when you think about the cost of what you might spend on the lipstick to go out on the date, Or the drink you have on the date spring for the $6 panties. I'm just  Susan Stone: saying, yeah, I'd like to add, it says $25, but you get four, four individually packed undies. Yeah.  Dr. Lauren Streicher: So $6 did.  Kristina Supler: So let me ask you this STS are most, I think there's a, a perception. Kristina Supler: Most STIs are treatable with an antibiotic and then the person's fine, true or not true.  Dr. Lauren Streicher: Well, it depends on the STI Uhhuh . So if you look at something like gonorrhea or syphilis, that would be true. If you look at herpes, herpes is, you know, obviously very, very common. And while we can control herpes using various antiviral. Dr. Lauren Streicher: Medications you don't get rid of it. We hope that the herpes virus is just going to quietly live somewhere and not rear its ugly head too often, but it doesn't ever go away. So it is something that while it is certainly not a, yeah, I mean, I don't wanna. Make it sound like if you get herpes, it's horrible. Dr. Lauren Streicher: It's not a lot of people get herpes and they deal with it and they're still good people and they're clean people and people love them and they have sex and all of that, but it is something you do need to manage for the rest of your life. And the same is true of HPV human papilloma virus, which is the most common, sexually transmitted infection right now. Dr. Lauren Streicher: We do not have anything to eradicate it the best, but of course is to make sure that you're vaccinated. But if you are vaccinated, that is not going, that's 90% basically, which is pretty good, but it's not a hundred percent. And that is also something that you may be dealing with going forward. Dr. Lauren Streicher: And when we talk about sexually transmitted infections and, and one of the things that you hear so often, which is so not true is when a woman says, well, my partner was tested for everything. There is no everything. There are something like 30 to 40 sexually transmitted infections. And when a woman comes to my office and says, I would like to be tested for everything. Dr. Lauren Streicher: My response to her is I can't test you for everything, but let me tell you what I would recommend as a general screening as a general battery, what I would include, but then most important I say, but are you concerned about any specific exposures or have you had any specific symptoms that may then lead me to say, oh, I also wanna test for X, Y, Z. Dr. Lauren Streicher: So there is. Everything. There's just good to know. Yeah.  Susan Stone: That's really good. Know we're gonna switch gears onto the next topic. We think impacts college women, and that is pregnancy prevention. Yeah. And Christina, wouldn't you say that every case that's coming in the door what's with the plan B everyone's talking plan B. Kristina Supler: Well, it's really interesting, particularly in cases where we're seeing our clients. Who had a hookup whatever the circumstances are. And basically what I'm getting at is the sexual partners don't know each other that well. Yeah. And if there's a pregnancy issue, talk of plan B, it just really it adds a lot of stress and creates a really difficult dynamic that very few students are really. Kristina Supler: Emotionally equipped to navigate. And so I can't tell you how many of our title IX matters across the country at schools of all different calibers and tiers. There's a title I case with a plan B issue at the heart of it. In terms of, issues of consent and coercion and so on and so forth. Susan Stone: Well, we wanna go back to basics for our listeners. Yeah. Can you just explain what is plan B, how it works? What are the side effects? Just educate our parents about it because I didn't grow up with it.  Dr. Lauren Streicher: Well, no, we did not. And so plan B, we, we refer to it as emergency contraception. We do not refer to it as the morning after pill. Dr. Lauren Streicher: And the reason why is because you don't have to do it the morning after. I mean, when I would, you know, I used to get these phone calls, emergency phone calls at 2:00 AM, where I could still hear the heavy breathing. Saying, you know, I need the morning after. The condom broke. I need the morning after pill right now, you have more time than you think. Dr. Lauren Streicher: And in fact with taking plan B, these are pills and I'll get into the specifics, but you have up until five days now, the sooner, the better, you know, we would like you to take plan B or another form of emergency contraception within. Ideally 24 hours, 48 hours, 72 hours. Because when you look at failure rates, the failure rates are much, much lower early on, but the most important thing to know about plan B is first of all, it is not an abort patient. Dr. Lauren Streicher: And I cannot say that enough. It is not. We've had many  Kristina Supler: students come to us, really confused about that.  Dr. Lauren Streicher: Very issue. And the reason why it's so confusing. Um, and we won't get into politics here and, and MIS, you know, messaging and all that. But they actually came out about the same time when you look at R 46, which is an AOR patient. Dr. Lauren Streicher: And then you look at plan B, which is not, which is emergency contraception, meaning it prevents. Conception from occurring as opposed to disrupting an established pregnancy. So just to be clear, emergency contraception prevents a pregnancy and abort patient disrupts or aborts and already established pregnancy. Dr. Lauren Streicher: So  Susan Stone: someone said to us though, and I just wanna have you clarify that there. EC does one, it prevents pregnancy one of two ways. One, it prevents the actual fertilization of the egg. Yeah. And two, it prevents implantation and some people argue that. It should be considered abort of if there's a fertilization, I don't wanna get into politics, but can you explain how it prevents pregnancy? Dr. Lauren Streicher: So, so this is the thing when we look in terms of timing we know that the best time to take emergency contraception is, as I said, early on. When you look at, when does fertilization actually occur after a sex act, it's not immediately, it occurs in the fallopian tube when the sperm makes that journey up the cervix up the uterus out through the tube where it potentially will. Dr. Lauren Streicher: Meet up with an egg. Well, this journey is not instantaneous. This journey can take 4, 5, 6 days. So what that means is that if you take emergency contraception within those first 24, 48 hours, conception has not occurred yet. When you're looking at emergency contraception, that's taken as an outlier. Dr. Lauren Streicher: At five, six days when you, you really don't want to. Cause first of all, it's not gonna work as well, but is there the potential that the egg has already been fertilized, but just hasn't traveled down yet to the uterus? Yeah. And strictly speaking, if you think of that as being. An early termination of a pregnancy, but I don't look to me. Dr. Lauren Streicher: A pregnancy is when you have a fertilized egg, which is implanted in the uterus, that's, you know, we have ectopic pregnancies, we have all kinds of things that happen in the tube that are not actually what I consider to be viable pregnancies. You can say the same thing for IUDs intrauterine device, which actually. Dr. Lauren Streicher: A copper, I U D can be used as a form of emergency contraception. A lot of people don't know that they think it's just the pills, but you can also use a copper I U D, which is very similar in terms of it setting up an environment in the uterus where fertilized egg is just simply not gonna implant. Dr. Lauren Streicher: But when you look at plan B, so it's actually, when you go back historically, when plan B first came out, Long before they came out with the actual plan B manufactured as such what we used to do as kind of our own concoction. If you will, is if a woman came in and said that she had unprotected sex, we would give her four birth control pills two in the morning, two at night, it was basically it's a high dose pill and that would work very well. Dr. Lauren Streicher: I'm sorry, what would those women get sick and really nauseous from that?  Dr. Lauren Streicher: They would get sick. Yes, but they would get sicker if they got pregnant. So it seemed like a good, there you go. There you go. But, so that's what we used to do. And then of course, manufacturers came out with plan B, which is not the only emergency contraception. Dr. Lauren Streicher: There's some others also, but the, the beauty of this is not in every state, but in most states you do not need a prescription. This is something that you can get directly from the pharmacist. It is state by state. But quite frankly, I think when we talk about, as a parent sending your kid off to school and there, you know, you pick the first you, you put your first aid kit together and I, and I know you had Dr. Grimes on as a guest and talked about her book. And in her book, she talks about all the things you wanna have in that health kit to send off. I don't think she has plan B, but that's what I would add. Oh no. Oh, I would add, I gotta talk to her about that cuz she's my friend. I would add the panties and plan B to that little kit that you send with your daughter. Dr. Lauren Streicher: Or son off to school because we want the guys to be responsible and be able to share that. And if a guy's condom breaks, it's nice. If he's be able to give to the woman who's involved, here's plan B, you don't need to go and spend the money and go to the pharmacy and all that. This stuff doesn't expire. Dr. Lauren Streicher: You it'll hang out for the year. So every year you can give them a new prescription, but instead of the prescription, just give them the actual pills because you're not giving your daughter permission to have sex. Trust me, they're gonna, if they're do it, they're gonna do it. You just wanna keep 'em safe. Kristina Supler: You talked about like ideally taking it 24 to 48 hours up to five days and the longer you wait, I think it, it impacts efficacy, but let's say you take it early on. Can a woman still get pregnant after taking a plan B.  Dr. Lauren Streicher: Yes. It's not a hundred percent. And, and I think that that's important to know that if you, if you take it and and then you end up missing your period you still need to do the pregnancy test. Dr. Lauren Streicher: You still need to deal with potential consequences, but the numbers are much lower. Ideally you don't wanna just rely on a condom because condoms do break condoms do get left off the absolute best form of contraception. For a young woman, hands down is what we call non-user dependent. Dr. Lauren Streicher: Meaning you don't have to take the pill. I mean, pills are good, but better you get busy. You know, you've got a crazy schedule. You're not gonna take that pill at the same time every day. And that's why we love IUDs. We love the implant Nexplanon because it's said it and forget it. And we know. That the efficacy rates are up there in the 98,99%. Dr. Lauren Streicher: And it doesn't get any better than that. So my feeling is, is before you go off to school or the second you get there, get an I U D get your next plan. It'll hold you for the whole four years. So it's a one time thing for most people. And then yes, you still need to protect against sexually transmitted infections, but at least if something happens, you're not worried about both. Dr. Lauren Streicher: You don't have to worry about pregnancy and again, not to get too political, which is hard for me. We have states now and more soon to come and it may be across our country that the. The whole notion of having access to a safe and reliable abortion is simply not going to exist. Dr. Lauren Streicher: And we need to deal with the reality of that. And we know that right now in this country, 50% of unplanned pregnancies are not no contraception, it's failed contraception. And that's a very important fact for people to know, because fascinating statistics. Yeah. You can get all these facts on the group mocker site but the thing that's so critically important is there are people out there that say, well, if someone gets pregnant, it's their own damn fault, cuz they weren't being careful or they weren't being responsible. Dr. Lauren Streicher: And aside from the fact that we have non-consensual sex on campus, even responsible. Couples very often will have contraception that fails, whether it's the pill that's taken too late. I mean, this is an absolute fact that 50% of unplanned pregnancies occur in a cycle in contraception was used, but it failed. Dr. Lauren Streicher: So quick  Susan Stone: question, just a transition just as a mother with, daughters. Is there any concern that the plan B or the implant would impact future fertility?  Dr. Lauren Streicher: Quite the opposite. We know that an I U D does actually, we don't advertise this, but can actually decrease the transmission of sexually transmitted infections. Dr. Lauren Streicher: And the reason why is that one of the effects of the I U D that prevents pregnancies, it makes the cervical mucus very, very thick, very, very tenacious. So it keeps those creepy crawlers from going up into the uterus and the tubes. So it's actually protective, but again, we don't advertise that cause we want people to do STI protection anyway. Dr. Lauren Streicher: And certainly birth control pills in no way are going to impact. Someone's ability to get pregnant down the road. And what's so interesting is when we think in just in terms of hormonal contraception in general, we know it actually protects fertility because when you look at the reasons why people can't get fertil, can't get pregnant. Dr. Lauren Streicher: The number one reason is that they're too old. And so when someone's been on the pill for 20 years and they go off the pill and can't get pregnant, it's not cuz they run the pill for 20 years. It's cuz now they're 40. But if you look at young, Who go off the pill. What that means is if that young woman had a problem such as endometriosis, that has been controlled during that entire time and actually protects her fertility. Dr. Lauren Streicher: So  Kristina Supler: while we're on this topic of fertility and just thinking long term, let me ask you, this is I'm sure you're likely aware most college students these days, and of course I'm generalizing, but they don't view marijuana as a drug whatsoever. It's like taking a cough drop. So right. Looking down the road, does smoking marijuana regularly, or maybe infrequently have any impact on reproductive  Susan Stone: health? Susan Stone: And I just wanna say Christina. We take turns, working on the questions we have. And I said to Christina, Where are you getting that question? I mean, who would ever even think, like does marijuana or any drug use impact fertility? I'm like, I, I naturally assumed it wouldn't but then I thought  Dr. Lauren Streicher: that's a brilliant question. Dr. Lauren Streicher: It is a brilliant question because the kids aren't thinking about it, but the potential grandmas to be are and thinking, you know, if my kid goes off to school and does four years of pot, am I a ever gonna have a grandchild? Or if I do is my grandchild gonna have two heads? And so it, it's a totally, totally appropriate question. Susan Stone: So that's why I'm in business with you. There you go. There you go days. So this  Dr. Lauren Streicher: This is what we know. We, and we don't know a lot because of course it has not been studied nearly enough. We know that in men. That smoking pot can cause fertility problems and can alter sperm, but men make sperm as they go, if you will. Dr. Lauren Streicher: So this pat, a guy smokes in college, as best as we know is not going to affect his sperm. 20 years later, women are born with all of their eggs and those eggs are just like sitting there ready to be released and we don't have any data. That says that that cannabis will alter fertility down the road, but we also don't have any data that says it does not. Dr. Lauren Streicher: We don't, that's a big, we don't know  Susan Stone: why I just have to ask why aren't we studying that?  Dr. Lauren Streicher: Who's gonna do that study and who's gonna pay for it. Okay. Wow. Which is true of any pretty much all studies with cannabis. This is the thing that people forget when they say how come there aren't. the reason why pharmaceuticals will spend millions and millions and billions of dollars on a product is cuz that's the only way they can bring it to market. Dr. Lauren Streicher: If they don't do every single test to see, does this make your nose turn green? Is it gonna make your hair fall out? Is it gonna cause problems? The FDA will never approve it, but cannabis is in a different category because cannabis. Available and doesn't need those tests to come to market. So what cannabis company in their right mind is gonna spend millions of dollars to prove that cannabis does something bad, not gonna happen. Dr. Lauren Streicher: Right. That  Kristina Supler: makes sense. That's very practical. Yeah. So tell us this, based on your experience and that of your colleagues, what is the most prevalent gynecological health issue facing women in their early twenties today? Or  Dr. Lauren Streicher: where's there a knowledge gap? Yeah, the big knowledge back. Well, it, it depends it really depends. Dr. Lauren Streicher: I mean, some young women are incredibly savvy, cuz if they have moms like you, they give them a ton of information and send them off, armed with information. They know quite a bit. And then there, of course there are the young women that come from families and schools where they don't get appropriate sex education, their mothers aren't telling them. Dr. Lauren Streicher: And some of them figure it out on their own and, and some of them don't. And there's a couple of good websites. Sex education for young women. One of them, I think it's called Scarla. Teen is quite good, which is directed for young people to give you accurate information. But the thing that's so interesting to me is we can talk about non-sexual issues, you know, that young women need to know about, but when it comes to sexual issues, it's not difficult to, for someone who's motivated and wants to know about it, to learn about safe sex and and contraception. Dr. Lauren Streicher: But when no one talks about his sexual pleasure and it's a thing, nobody,  Susan Stone: my mother did not talk to me about that.  Dr. Lauren Streicher: No. And even moms that, that are responsible moms that talk to their daughters about, you know, okay, ha you're going off to college and I want you to be. Safe emotionally and physically and STIs and all that stuff. Dr. Lauren Streicher: But have you ever say, and I want you to have great orgasms, no women generally don't have that conversation. And that's where these young women are. Mm-hmm because societally, cause then they start asking about your orgasms. That's why, but the, but the problem is societally boys have an expectation that they are entitled to sexual. Dr. Lauren Streicher: They just do, it's everywhere women. Have this idea that they are put on earth to give men's sexual pleasure, as opposed to that they should be enjoying sex on their own. And even if you look at enlightened sexual education, it's very, very rare that anyone talks about pleasure. So what's so interesting is my daughter's a sex therapist and we give a lot of talks together. Dr. Lauren Streicher: She's quite amazing. She's I'm not a therapist. She's amazing when it comes to this stuff. We give a lecture together. We give a lot of, we give a lecture every year to graduate students at Kellogg, which is the school of business here at Northwestern. And we give one talk to the men and one talk to the women and it's their idea to do it separately. Dr. Lauren Streicher: Not ours. I  Kristina Supler: am I gonna like fifth grade sex ed was because it  Dr. Lauren Streicher: allows them to more freely ask questions. And we've been doing this probably for about four or five years now, and it is a hundred percent predictable. What questions they are asking. And for the women, it comes down to pleasure. How come I don't have an orgasm? Dr. Lauren Streicher: Is sex supposed to hurt? Those are the questions.  Susan Stone: Oh, well you are segueing into a question that we have. Yeah. Who actually have a lot of cases where females complain on about painful intercourse. And they're saying that the male caused it. Yeah, by being too  Kristina Supler: rough or, or perhaps because consent wasn't  Dr. Lauren Streicher: if they  Kristina Supler: weren't around and right. Kristina Supler: Or, or they felt pressured to consent or something like that, there's a direct cause and effect to the painful incourse and seems like sometimes that may be true, but then sometimes there's yeah, very real medical reasons. What can you tell us about that? Susan Stone: If we go into that, because that's how we met. Is there was the claim that a woman said, you can only don't go too deep. And there was complete confusion between the students about what is going too deep. And was that related?  Dr. Lauren Streicher: Yeah. Well, the first message and, it's so important for all young people to know this and quite frankly, adults too. Dr. Lauren Streicher: Um, which is how I spend my day in the menopause center in the sexual medicine clinic is sex should never hurt period. Sex should never hurt. It is never okay to have pain during sexual activity. And a lot of people don't know that especially young women who maybe have never had a pain free or a pleasurable, we've gone from, okay, you should have pleasure to you shouldn't have pain. Dr. Lauren Streicher: These are obviously two different things, but it's shocking how many women think that it is normal to have pain. It is not normal to have pain. So then that brings us more to your question. Why would someone. Pain. And of course the list is very long of reasons why a young woman might have pain. Um, sometimes it's a condition such as endometriosis. Dr. Lauren Streicher: Sometimes women will have actually vaginal dryness because of a birth control, which is little. Understood, but it's a definite problem. Sometimes they might have other issues such as something called Vestia that all of those things have nothing to do with the partner. Okay. These are conditions that they may not know about until they have partnered sex, but. Dr. Lauren Streicher: Those are not caused by the partner. If you look at conditions that are specifically caused by a partner that otherwise wouldn't be there with, let's say a different partner or something, then what you're looking at is a woman aroused. We know that sometimes, certainly when you look at nonconsensual sex obviously women are not aroused during non-consensual sex. Dr. Lauren Streicher: They are expressly saying they do not want it and they will not stay  Susan Stone: out, stay out of my vagina. That's what they're saying.  Dr. Lauren Streicher: The vagina says stay out too. And the way the vagina says stay out is by not lubricating by the muscles tightening. And basically the vagina goes into keep out mode, which is in pain mode if someone attempts. Dr. Lauren Streicher: So, no question that. Certainly that would be a partner related situation. And, and certainly in my practice, we have seen women that have had nothing but painful sex. And then with something as simple, as a different partner who they love and who is patient and they are aroused with things are okay. Dr. Lauren Streicher: But I will say that for the most part. Women that have pain with sex it's because there is something going on with them that we can fix, you know, you're not broken. It just means that it's  Kristina Supler: an important message for women to understand what of all ages that right. You don't have to live with this forever  Susan Stone: and that it could be sign of something else that needs to be treated. Dr. Lauren Streicher: Right. And that's why I've said, I think 10 times right now, pain is never, okay. Pain is never normal. But then the follow up to that is, and it is always treatable. It is always treatable. We have solutions for pain. It's funny cuz with these clinics that I run and obviously we see women that have a lot of different problems, whether it's libido issues or orgasm issues and the ones that we actually kind of like the best, if you will, are the women who come with pain because that we can fix. Dr. Lauren Streicher: Yeah, we can always find out why is someone having pain and how do we eliminate the cause of the pain. But it is very common that women too common that women have pain and people, when they hear we have a sexual medicine clinic, a lot of times they assume that this is for women older, you know, over the age of 45, 50, 55. Dr. Lauren Streicher: No, they don't come to our sexual medicine clinic. They go to our menopause clinic cuz we do. Sex and pain in the menopause clinic, but that's the menopause clinic. The sexual medicine clinic is only women in their twenties and thirties and forties. She's never, that's a wonderful resource.  Dr. Lauren Streicher: Yeah. So do you think the message should be for those moms who have daughters going to college? Dr. Lauren Streicher: Because I don't think mothers gonna really, most mothers are gonna really wanna have a conversation about orgasm, but would it be more appropriate to say, look, I just want you to know. Sex should not hurt. And if you find yourself in pain, you need to call me and we'll figure it out or call the doctor.  Dr. Lauren Streicher: Oh doctor. Dr. Lauren Streicher: So this is the other thing too. And this is, I know Dr. Grims has made this point and I dunno if she made it with you is as you send your young adult off, part of sending off your young adult is to send them off armed with the phone numbers of doctors, their insurance card because you can't expect a young woman to call her mom and say, I had sex with a guy last night and his penis was enormous and I'm now I'm in pain. Dr. Lauren Streicher: What should I do? She's not gonna call her mother and say that, but very few girls are gonna do that. So, so to your point, the message is when you have the sex talk, the going off to college sex talk, the talk is I want you to be. Both physically and emotionally. And I want to make sure that if you choose to become sexual, that you prevent sexually transmitted infections and pregnancy, but I also wanna make sure that you know, that sex is not to please men. Dr. Lauren Streicher: It is to please yourself and you should never have pain. And that's it. Oh my gosh. That's it. Yeah, that's alone. That's the message. Kristina Supler: That was really profound and in, in some ways obvious, but yet I think it's so important that women of all ages hear that and really think about that. And  Susan Stone: if they do, I think that Kristina will see a lot of, a lot less sexual assault cases because women will know how to advocate for themselves and really communicate to the males. Stop. I, you need to get away from me. I don't like this. Hopefully,  Dr. Lauren Streicher: hopefully, well that it's not all about you. It's about me, you know? Yes. It's really where comes down to, because, from the beginning of time there's been this idea that if I don't have sex with him, he won't like me. Dr. Lauren Streicher: And then that will end the relationship. And I will tell you that. I'm not saying that it might not cause be problematic in a, particularly a longer term relationship if you're not have sex, but it's, you know, this is actually one of the problems that my, my daughter, the sex therapist deals with a lot because she does support groups for young women who, who, who have painful sex. Dr. Lauren Streicher: And a lot of what they're navigating is okay, I'm in this relationship. I really like this guy. I want to be able to have sex with him, but I can't because it hurts. How do I deal with that from a relationship point of view? And I can't answer those questions cause I'm not a therapist but I can tell you that there are plenty of guys out there who you know, you can have great sex without having intercourse starting with that, but they are. Dr. Lauren Streicher: If, if they really care about you, they care about the fact that sex hurts and there will be workarounds. Wow. While you get it while you get it treated until you.  Susan Stone: Until we grow. And by the way, I think this applies to couples of all types, right?  Dr. Lauren Streicher: Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's why I've been careful not to say, you know, necessarily a man. Dr. Lauren Streicher: I use the word partner for that reason. Um, that's right. Because I treat people with vaginas cuz I'm a gynecologist, but beyond that, I don't really it, it doesn't impact on me. How they identify whether they identify as male or non-binary or female. And I don't care for what someone has sex with. I just want it to be consensual and pleasurable and safe, that's it. Dr. Lauren Streicher: And consensual.  Susan Stone: Yep.  Kristina Supler: Great words to end on Dr. Streicher. Thank you so much for joining us today. It's been a pleasure and again, to our listeners, check out Dr. Streicher's books that are available for sale basically everywhere, go to Amazon or anywhere else. And then Dr. Streicher's podcast, Dr. Streicher's Inside Information, the Menopause Podcast,  Susan Stone: we really enjoyed having you and could talk to you for hours more. Susan Stone: So we're gonna have to have you back.  Dr. Lauren Streicher: I would love that. It's been my pleasure.

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Randy Rohde, the founder of 38 Digital Market. They discuss what it's been like to run a law practice as partners. The conversation includes how their diverse skill set and respective approaches has created a strong foundation for their powerful partnership, how they challenged traditional law firm practices with their unique approach to business and the services they provide and the fundamental elements of being an effective lawyer and having a successful practice. Show Notes: (00:55) How strengthening their business relationship has significantly impacted their ability to help students and their families with legal matters (02:36) Achieving growth and development through constructive conflict (03:38) Maintaining professionalism with mutual respect and trust in one another (04:29) How Title IX sparked the beginning of their business partnership and mission to help students and their families (06:21) The controversy of breaking law firm industry norms by equally sharing origination credits of their business (07:52) The beauty of applying a growth mindset to a complementary skill set  (09:44) Title IX and research misconduct cases, and how their archetypal clientele has evolved throughout the years and pandemic. (12:10) Going beyond legal consultation with parental counseling for clients and how it's helped their personal development (16:29) Why listening skills and establishing boundaries are rudimentary to becoming a successful lawyer for your clients (17:47) How the dynamics of their partnership in every case has proved to be advantageous for their clients time and again (23:03) The perfect time to hire a lawyer that yields the best possible outcome regardless of the type of case Transcript: Kristina Supler: Today, we're doing real talk conversations. We're joined by Randy Rohde of 38 Digital Market.  Susan Stone: You mean we're talking to each other. With Randy. Hi, Randy. yes.  Randy Rohde: Yes. You're talking to each other and I'm just kind of here along for the ride a little bit. So, thank you for inviting me and having me part of the team here today. Randy Rohde: It really is an honor and you. Folks have done really some remarkable things. I think in what you do in your practice. I would love to hear a lot of that, but maybe to start as first. How about some background on the two of you?  Susan Stone: Thanks. It's so funny. You take for granted what you have every day in your life. And Kristine and I are really lucky that we formed this team to represent students and families with legal needs with regard to their education or some other crisis. And we take a team approach in every aspect of what we do, whether it's building our business or serving our clients.  Kristina Supler: What's always so interesting to me. And, and, and I know Susan shares the same perspective. People have this perception of us that we have this wonderful team and business we've built and a friendship as well, because we're as close outta the office as we appear to be in the office. But it's not something that's just always been there. I mean, over the years, we've really worked hard to get to know each other and figure out our likes, our interests our pain points, our weaknesses, and figure out how to grow with each other and really build a business together into what we both enjoy in a business that taps into not only helping people, but also that brings us fulfillment. Susan Stone: I think that was really nicely put. Yeah.  Randy Rohde: Yeah. And I know from past conversations with the two of you that you also highly, I will say compliment each other on the differences of your either specialties or the way that you just were maybe better put to say your personalities and it enables you, I think maybe when you mix it all together, it's like an incredible team. Susan Stone: Well, you know, I do wanna say that we were a lot more different 10 years ago.  Kristina Supler: Absolutely speaking for myself, a vastly different person, really.  Susan Stone: And we were different generations. We had different career goals and as time went on and really working through things, I would say now we're like an old, married couple in many ways where we can complete each other's sentences. But it's the differences that make us more powerful and in many ways. Susan Stone: And sometimes I miss that time where it was so vastly different. Of course there's less clash, there's less conflict, but sometimes the growth was in the conflict.  Kristina Supler: Yeah. I would say that through really what has enabled us to achieve the success that we've reached and service our clients to the best of our ability is wrestling with each other and sitting in discomfort and having disagreements and talking things through and, and sometimes arguing through points to really arrive at The best result for our clients. Kristina Supler: But I think in order to do that professionally, there has to be a tremendous amount of respect for each other, and then also trust and a feeling of, of safety with each other to be, to feel confident, but then also to feel vulnerable and say, To oneself it's okay to be wrong. Like, I don't have to have an ego here. Kristina Supler: Susan's right. And I'm wrong. Or, or vice versa or, often it's even young associates that we're working with where we stop and pause and say, gee, huh? Hadn't thought of that. You're right.  Randy Rohde: Hmm. As the practice has grown. And maybe before I even approach that, so your practice is focused on Student in athlete defense, specifically title IX. Randy Rohde: Why don't you give us a little bit of background about title IX and how that has, I think matured as a law over the course of years.  Susan Stone: Gosh, I mean, it started in 1972 and it is the statute that ensures that all students have equal access to their education and extracurricular activities. Really, I think the first application was making sure that there were equal opportunities in the field of athletics for both genders. Susan Stone: Now the primary application is to make sure that students are attend college free from discrimination or sexual harassment or sexual assault. I would say that it is a large part of our practice, but by no means. The only focus of our practice. We do a lot more than that.  Kristina Supler: What's interesting about title IX on, on a personal level, is that it's actually what in many ways brought Susan and me together. Kristina Supler: So for years, Susan we were at the same law firm together and Susan was doing education work and civil litigation employment work. And, and I was essentially doing criminal defense exclusively. And. As the government put out directives to your colleague letters, really instructing educational institutions on how to implement title IX on college campuses, organically, Susan. Kristina Supler: And I just noticed we're both starting to get these calls from people, with kids at school. There's this problem? What do we do? And over time there was. Significant overlap in the work we were doing. And we started to work together increasingly and realized we enjoyed working with each other. Kristina Supler: And it just sort of, there was that moment where you pause and think gee, is there something really awesome happening right under my nose. And I need to like open my eyes and seize the moment. And it was really to Susan's credit that we ended up, in, in a situation where we said, you know, let's conscientiously and consciously build this female partnership together. Susan Stone: And I, I do think one of the things we did, which was at the time really shocking for people is we basically said, let's build this and. It's whatever comes in, we'll split the source. You know, law firms are businesses.  Kristina Supler: I would say just for a, a little bit of background for those who aren't familiar with the ins and outs of law firms, the idea of origination I is, is everything. Kristina Supler: So, the lawyer bringing in the clients gets the origination credit, different firms, call it D. Different labels. Right. But that is a very important part of, of becoming a partner and, and growing in the firm. And so this idea that two lawyers would split origination credits, regardless of whose contact, brought the matter to the firm. Kristina Supler: We were met with a ton of resistance and, and many of what comments? Yeah.  Susan Stone: Like why would you do  Kristina Supler: this? I think ultimately at the root of it was concern that like we were sort of bucking the system and like, what if other people catch on and like other lawyers start doing this, then what's gonna happen to this whole system. Kristina Supler: That's premised essentially. Competition with one another.  Randy Rohde: That's funny because that's what exactly what I was going like. Wow. Have you started a new trend, even at your firm at K JK or, in the industry as a whole?  Susan Stone: Well, the interesting thing, I don't know if we started a trend and we, we really very lucky to be at K JK, but what I would say is at the time I had already started this practice. Susan Stone: Mm. And. Was very fortunate. I started my practice representing students. With needs in special education, K through 12 to make sure the individual education plan or the 5 0 4 plan was really providing a, a free, appropriate public education. And then I was starting to get the title IX cases in and cheating cases and other types of student discipline, both at the K through 12 and the college level. Susan Stone: I still have the diploma of a graduate student hanging on my wall. First case I won and I had a marketing background and I remember someone commenting. Why would you wanna your, your head in, in starting a business? And I knew that that was just the beginning of a journey and that Christina's skillset is being now. Susan Stone: Outstanding lawyer, not just an outstanding criminal defense lawyer, but really an outstanding PR practitioner and the fact that she's so detail oriented and she has such a passion for her clients. I would not grow without that skillset. So you let go a little and you get a lot more mm-hmm  Kristina Supler: that growth mindset is something that we've really made a point to, to guide our decisions over the. Randy Rohde: I like that. Even as she was saying that folks, you can't see this because we're on audio, but you know, they're pointing. Yes, that was right. I love that. So as your practice has changed and matured as the law has changed and become different, I think over the course of the years, N now, and you alluded to some of this already, but maybe talk about some of the typical. Randy Rohde: Cases or types of cases that you take on now in your practice, what does that look like?  Susan Stone: Obviously title IX cases, which are allegations of sexual assault, sexual misconduct, stalking sexual harassment. I think what has changed is that originally we were really only representing the accused, which were mostly male, however, We are finding more and more females are hiring attorneys. Susan Stone: Wouldn't you say, Christina?  Kristina Supler: I agree. It's been. Over the years, the, the clients who have been hiring us have it's been interesting to see the path that's taken and that we're being hired. Now we represent many female complainants who are going through the process and recognize that they'd like to be served by a student advisor. Kristina Supler: Who's a lawyer. We also represent students in high school and grade school who are, are facing. Title IX matters, but it doesn't stop there. Our practice is nationwide and so we're representing individuals across the country who are facing different types of matters that Susan mentioned, student misconduct academic integrity cases, hazing. Kristina Supler: Criminal cases. We actually do quite a bit of work in the field known as research misconduct. And so in that realm, it's actually quite different from what we do in the title IX realm, but there's the same sort of legal approaches that guide the work academic integrity, academic research misconduct matters were representing. Kristina Supler: Researchers professors who often have grants, often federal grants used to fund research in labs, and there's been allegations of fabrication, falsification, plagiarism. And so there's a whole process, both. Internally and institutions, but also then externally at times with the federal government. And those are really interesting  Susan Stone: cases. Susan Stone: I have to say, Randy, a couple weeks ago, a new case came in and it's already concluded. We're waiting to hear the outcome of some college kids who got drunk and allegedly beat on a mascot at a professional game. I mean, who beats the mascot at, drunk kids? I smiled. I was so grateful for that case because those are the cases you wanna see college kids get into, just little drunken shenanigans, I guess. Susan Stone: It's not that funny to the mascot, but since the pandemic, the cases we're seeing are just so serious and heavy and. I wanna step out that I think what Christina and I do is so much more than just being lawyers. We counsel both students and parents.  Kristina Supler: So we such an important part of what we do is  Susan Stone: working with parents. Susan Stone: And oftentimes we're really giving difficult advice to parents on not only the. Of their child's case, but they don't know how to manage their kids. And we've dealt with a lot of mental health issues. We refer students out for therapy or coaching, and we've dealt with a lot of suicide issues and it's required us to actually broaden our scope of outside services so we can really make good referrals. Susan Stone: And also set better boundaries for us to get through the day  Kristina Supler: and our own children. I mean, one thing that I love so much about our law practice is that on a regular basis, things unfold in the office at work, working on cases and with clients, and to be very blunt, we see a lot of really good parents. And then we also come across a lot of families where the parents. Kristina Supler: There's just, there's so much. Yeah. The parents are stuck and they're stuck from the outside perspective. Of course, it's easy to say, oh, oh my gosh, how could they have allowed that or done that? Or, whatever it may be. And so after Go home at the end of the day and, and reflect. And it's really, I've learned so much. Kristina Supler: That's helped me, I think, become a better parent with my own children. And so it's really nice that if I wanna have the sort of work personal boundary firmly in place, I can. But then also if I choose to take a step back and reflect on how our work applies to raising my own children, I can do that. Kristina Supler: And, and I've learned so many lessons through. Working with our clients and then Susan's experience in the special ed world. It's really been awesome.  Randy Rohde: I love that you mentioned that about, and especially what I would say is kind of the value add, but beyond just practicing law with your clients. Randy Rohde: And I know, this series of conversations that we're doing with your podcast, we're gonna do and explore many different topics. And I think some of those topics are going to be some of these things that you mentioned And some of the advice and the insights, I think that you can give to parents going through the various phases of parenthood and stages of their students' lives, whether it's they're in high school or getting ready to go to college or they're in college. Randy Rohde: I know from various conversations that we've had have really just an incredible amount. Life experiences and guidance that you could really help parents. And so I'm just kinda giving that plug that future conversations that we're gonna record and do are gonna cover some of those topics as well. Randy Rohde: So I think it's highly valuable and I love that you do that for your clients and your parents. I think that's  Susan Stone: true. And sometimes they don't love it. Oh, I'm  Kristina Supler: sure. Oh, oh no, they don't.  Susan Stone: yeah. Uh, really interesting how we've morphed. I would say that, for better or for worse, I have a big personality and, uh, no, I didn't notice. Susan Stone: Oh my gosh. And we'll say Susan's going all Susan on someone. We, we, we  Kristina Supler: affectionately coined a phrase, pulling a Susan, pulling a Susan up.  Susan Stone: Really yesterday. I was a student advisor in a case. And the student was being interviewed and the questions were really sounding ridiculous. Well, what did this friend tell the other friend who told the other friend? Susan Stone: And all of a sudden I looked stopped and I'm not supposed to speak. And I go, are we in sixth grade here? can we please elevate the level of questioning here? So over the years, I've really learned how to be a better listen. How to deliver difficult advice. That's doesn't sound judgemental, but is very clear. Susan Stone: And I think, and I'm, I would rather Christina, talk about this, how to set better boundaries and our  Kristina Supler: boundaries. Yeah. I think that it's interesting people think of being a lawyer as, as being an advocate and being, an aggressive mouthpiece for our clients. And, and while that is true, that's only one component of being a lawyer in servicing our clients. Kristina Supler: Truly. I think at the heart of being an effective counselor or advisor is listening. listening is essential to so much in life. And of course it's no surprise that's a key foundational piece for really being an effective lawyer. And over the years with my background in criminal defense, I mean, from, from the get go I've always, frankly, was having to give people bad news. Kristina Supler: So I've become quite skilled at delivering really devastating news to people, regrettably, but it's an important part of our practice and It's something that we have to do. And, and the idea of boundaries though, is so important for our success, because it's something we say to each other, and it's something that we've. Kristina Supler: Picked up going to yoga and, and talking with various friends in our personal lives boundaries, keep you safe. And so it's setting boundaries with clients, with each other deciding when, you know, there there's times, when you do allow the emotional spillover from work into our personal lives in home. Kristina Supler: And then there's other times where it's no matter what the situation is. It's like. I have to set a boundary. I mean, we're very accessible to our clients in the evenings and weekends, but sometimes it's like, I have to put up a boundary. I'm sorry that you're feeling, you know, however you're feeling, but like I'm, I'm not available right now. Kristina Supler: And setting those boundaries for ourselves, with each other with clients has just. Actually enabled us to be better at what we do and also feel better. It's just healthy  Susan Stone: and we're really good at delegating. So we pride ourselves there. There's always one of us. So I, I would say the first thing we always do is protect. Susan Stone: The partnership and we sell ourselves as a team approach. And that is really to the benefit of the client. First of all, we both keep each other posted on what's happening, what we're working on, what the other person's working on. So if I need a weekend off or a day off, you can reach Christina and vice versa and both know what's going on. Susan Stone: And so you don't skip a beat. We also. Value the input that the other person has in a case. So look, we know people are paying two rates, but we won't alter that basic model. And I think our clients really appreciate that because when we're getting a student ready for an interview, you. Two people preparing that student for their interview, or when we're looking at evidence, what stands out to me may not stand out to Christina and we have different perceptions on how things should be phrased. Susan Stone: Or sometimes we see a student stuck, they just keep melting down and we can't get them ready for the interview. And it, it. Sometimes that second voice. I think about it as parenting, you have two kids, two kids , just like you tag team with your wife, I'm sure in parenting, we're dealing with kids. Susan Stone: Mm. And sometimes little kids and they're crying and they're scared and they're melting down and we step in and who can reach them. And sometimes it might be a soft approach. And sometimes it might be a tough up and sometimes we just don't know what approach.  Kristina Supler: Right. And, and I would say that through we've really come to our belief in this approach and its efficacy in terms of, yielding the best result to our client through trial and error. Kristina Supler: Many years ago at times clients would say, oh, I only wanna work with Christina. Oh, I only wanna work with Susan. Or maybe they just say like, I don't have the money to pay for both of you. And will you cut your rates? No, never. mm-hmm but it's a situation where, you know, we'd say no, okay, whatever, we'd work something out with the client. Kristina Supler: And, and we just came to realize that truly the best result for our client is Garnered through us working together in sort of struggling through something, because sometimes we'll say, I'll say something to a client five times and the client just can't process and generalize it. And Susan will make the same point a six time, but say it in a slightly different way. Kristina Supler: And all of a sudden there's that aha light bulb moment. And it's actually so rewarding and fulfilling to see that when we're working together and all of a. Clicks for the client. Or, if we're in court doing an oral argument or whatever the circumstance may be, we have that breakthrough because one of us just brings something to the table. Kristina Supler: That's just a little different. Sometimes it's a lot different, but then sometimes it's just a subtle difference. That's what was necessary to move the needle.  Randy Rohde: I love the point that you made. And I think the comment is that the, what benefits the client the most is the two of you together. Something like that. Randy Rohde: I I'm paraphrasing, but Yes. And so regardless that the two of you together and what you bring and work with each other and share in your experiences and your intellect is the best outcome is the best potential service to your clients.  Susan Stone: That is our product. Yeah. At the end of the day, what we're giving someone. Susan Stone: That is your edge. That is who we are. Yeah. I mean, there are so many wonderful attorneys in our space. Uh, we really are lucky that we have had the good fortune of meeting people across the country that also represents students and we make referrals or we've called each other. But I do think what makes us different is. Susan Stone: Who we are  Kristina Supler: together. Well, and we love the phrase more power together because we really believe that by us working together. It's more power.  Susan Stone: Yeah. Yeah. I should tell you though. They may, I don't think they're making fun of us. Do you think they're they call us in the office? The  Kristina Supler: ladies and it's so interesting too. Kristina Supler: Not interesting, but what's funny is that over the years of their own peril, I'm sure. Well, we've been in, you know, different settings, different law firms, you name it, different conferences. This isn't something we intentionally do, but we're just together. And in talking about our practice and, and what we do and we've time it again, have been coined the ladies so we've, we've just love it now. Kristina Supler: Yes.  Susan Stone: Yeah. You know, you gotta embrace it. Absolutely. The truth hurts. Right. I guess it beats the alternative.  Kristina Supler: Yeah. Right. Far worse things I've been called.  Randy Rohde: Yeah. I was gonna say they could call you something different. Uh, um, so when is, if somebody's beginning to struggle or they think that they might be having to deal with a potential title IX and all of the various kind of subsets of that. When is the appropriate time to reach out to you folks or a title IX attorney? When should you be brought into the situation, whether  Susan Stone: it's title IX or any type of student misconduct case, cuz we again do a lot right. Susan Stone: Of different types. The minute you think you're gonna be accused? Don't wait. Sometimes the best work we do is even pre-charge.  Kristina Supler: I, I, yeah, I would add if you're thinking about, if you should hire a lawyer, you should hire a lawyer. yeah. because there's a problem weighing on you and, and your child has exposure. Kristina Supler: We are regularly asked. Well, there hasn't been any charge yet. There hasn't been a report to the police or complaint filed with the school. Is, is it too early? What could you really do now? And it's remarkable what we actually can do. Sure. And some of our best results are. Yielded by work that we've done very early on in anticipation of the storm, hitting the storm, doesn't always hit, which is a good thing. Kristina Supler: Of course we say best the insurance policy, best thing that could happen to you or your child is that you don't need us. But if the storm does hit, we're ready to go. And so there's a lot of things we can do in anticipation even months and years. Anticipation. Yeah.  Susan Stone: I, I just wanna point out a lot of times. Susan Stone: Much easier to get witness statements and talk to people who might have seen things, heard things before a case hits because often time, once there's a formal proceeding, students get scared and they run away. And we've had cases where we were hired, took witness statements, gathered evidence, and the charge came in a year or two later. Susan Stone: And we, we have the statements in the file. Randy Rohde: Clearly you have a tremendous amount of experience. And, uh, I. We're just beginning to scratch on some of this. And I'm so looking forward to this series, the real talk conversations with Susan and Kristina because there's so much information that you can share with the audience with parents, with students. Randy Rohde: So looking forward to it, I thank you for inviting me to be a part of it as well.  Susan Stone: It was great. 

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Davida Amkraut, a College Consultant. They discuss test optional and test free methods of the college application process.  The conversation includes the advantages and disadvantages of test-optional and test blind college applications, the unspoken rules of navigating the obstacles of the college application process, and the best choices students can make to position themselves to build a stellar college application.   Links from this episode: Davida Amkraut: https://dha-edconsulting.com  Davida's Previous Interview:  https://studentdefense.kjk.com/2020/06/18/real-talk-podcast-covid-19-the-college-search/ Show Notes: The drastic change on the college admission process caused by the pandemic (01:11) Test optional versus test free: 2 terms that every American college applicant needs to know (02:12)  Why some colleges are reinstating test scores in their admission process, while the UC system and the Cal State system are maintaining  test free admission to address discrepancy (03:31) Using the ​​Common Data Set tool to determine whether or not you should submit your SAT scores to the college or university that you're applying for. (05:04) An unofficial list of universities that actually rely heavily on test scores of applicants (06:08) Why it is recommended for applicants to still take the ACT and SATs even if it's only the online simulation (08:22) When you should take the ACT over the SATs (08:56) Why taking the SATs is better for those who aren't confident in science (09:34) Digital SATs and why the college board is favoring this change as opposed to the paper and pen version (10:15) Controversy surrounding the shift to a digital SAT from the traditional testing (11:15) How students who opt for test free when applying to college fare among applicants who disclose their test scores (12:42) Why Advanced Placement (AP) classes are generally more advantageous than International Baccalaureate (IB) classes for college applicants (13:26) How meaningful extracurricular activities like sports can give your application a boost (14:26) Passion and authenticity are essential to becoming well-rounded students (16:42) Kristina Supler: Today's topic is the changing landscape with regard to standardized testing. We're here with Davida Amkraut who works with students on all aspects of the college application process. And for our listeners, you probably recognize Davida. She's been a guest before on Real Talk with Susan and Kristina.  Kristina Supler: Davida, we're so pleased to have you back today  Susan Stone: and you know what Davida, since you've moved, it's really fun seeing you on screen. We've really missed having you. So welcome back to our podcast.  Davida Amkraut: Thank you so much for having me again. It's a pleasure to be here.  Susan Stone: There's been a lot of changes with regard to the SAT and ACT. Can you get our listeners up to date? What are the hot issues and changes? And Just helpful tips that our listeners need to know for the, would it be rising juniors that really should pay attention or rising? Seniors or both.  Davida Amkraut: I would say both. And I say that since the pandemic, there has been huge shifts in the college admission process, largely because a huge population of the students were unable to test safely for their application season. Which led to many, many schools going test optional for the years following the pandemic. And that trend, some thought was going to be temporary. Davida Amkraut: And that, as soon as that, it was safe enough to test, test centers would open and colleges would revert back to their testing policies and things would just continue as normal. What we're seeing in the college admission world is that in fact, many schools are keeping that test optional.  Kristina Supler: Let me interrupt you. Kristina Supler: I apologize. But just for our listeners who are just new to the college journey with their children. Explain what it means for being test optional.  Susan Stone: Good question.  Davida Amkraut: Okay. So there are actually two different terms that our American applicants should know. The first one is test optional, which means that the student has the option to have their test scores considered. That means that they are able to include them in their application. If they want to. And they're also able to say no, this test score is not reflective of my academic potential and I don't want schools to have access to my scores. That's one option. There is also what we call the test blind or test free which has also taken off, which means that students don't have any option to submit scores. Davida Amkraut: They are, they are not going to be reviewed. And the University of California system and the Cal State system have now extended their test blind policy for a few more years,  Susan Stone: but you know what Davida,. I just have to talk to you about this because it appears. I just read an article to prepare for this podcast that the UC system has done a study and they actually think that they might consider going back to tests because they're finding that the overall caliber of students is lower and that the SATs are a good predictor of success. Have you read that study? .  Davida Amkraut: Well, there are a bunch of schools that are saying that, yes, this test is a predictor. MIT is one of those schools that actually has gone back to requiring test scores. They are saying that that helps them really understand the readiness of their students. Davida Amkraut: I think it really depends on who you're talking to. I think the real reason the UC system and the Cal State system went test blind is because of the equity issue. Because a lot of their population, there's a huge discrepancy between who can afford test prep and who can't. And the accessibility is not there for a lot of their population. Davida Amkraut: So that is one reason why that is such a big movement in the California area. Is that, and it's  Susan Stone: Can it stay that way. I mean, am I accurate in what I read about the UC system and the data that's come out of this decision? If you read that?  Davida Amkraut: Yeah, they've committed though. They have committed to the next year or two years to being test blind. Davida Amkraut: So they are not switching over any time soon in the next couple of cycles,  Susan Stone: If the test optional. Is it fair to say that for those schools that are test optional, that only students who get the 35 or 36. Or is the SAT still out of 1600 are going to submit their scores because, so it's sort of ridiculous. You're only going to see top scores.  Kristina Supler: And I would think an average score on the sat or act those students aren't going to submit it. Right. I mean, tell us what you see in your experience.  Davida Amkraut: So what you want most, what most families do and what most schools suggests and what most counselors suggests is that you go on the tool called a Common Data Set, which is something that colleges put out. They're required to put this out. And you go, and you look at the average SAT that of kids that were accepted to that said university or the average ACT and they will give you, the average. Davida Amkraut: And then you look, if your scores fall within that average, you should submit your scores. If they fall below the average, then that's your cue not to submit scores.  Kristina Supler: Isn't it? Isn't that a flag to the admissions officers to dismiss and score. It's probably below our average range.  Davida Amkraut: Yeah, they'll say that's below the average or it could also be that they couldn't test or there were other extenuating circumstances or that a student has test anxiety and they just started purchasing  Kristina Supler: Are they really having an open mind though, too, like the variability as to why students might not submit other than having a low score. Is that true?  Davida Amkraut: Well, I can speak to Johns Hopkins. So here, if you want some real data and Johns Hopkins is a very selective school or in the college world, we call it a highly rejective school. Davida Amkraut: They had half of their applicants in 2020 applied without test scores. Half of those admitted students came from the non submitter group. They accepted has without scores. Colgate the same thing. So it really depends on the school. Some schools are really, really test optional, which means that they do a holistic review. And some schools say they're test optional, but they prefer looking at scores, right. Davida Amkraut: They, like a school at Case Western reserve, they love scores, your, they love scores. And to them, they're very data driven school. And that's the word on the street. If you're applying to a school like Case. You're going to send, you need to submit scores. So it really depends on the institution. Davida Amkraut: I would say another school that is pretty authentically test-optional is Tufts. They sort of have the same statistics as Johns Hopkins. So it really, it's very, school-by-school a lot of schools, as you can imagine, don't really divulge all this data. Davida Amkraut: Because maybe they don't want to, but the schools that we have information on, we can see that half of the kids who do apply test optional are getting in test optional. My son is an example. He applied to all his schools test optional. He's a great student. He did terribly on his ACTs and that three hour test, I just didn't feel was a reflective of his potential. Davida Amkraut: And he got it to every single school he applied to. With distinguishment with, so I would say that scores are important, but you don't need them to set yourself apart in the admission process.  Kristina Supler: Sounds like you navigated him. Davida Amkraut: Well, yeah, he did great  Susan Stone: Davida before we transitioned to our next topic. Susan Stone: Cause I do want to leave space for what's coming for our listeners. Ultimately as someone in your position who shephards students through the process, do you still recommend that a student take a standardized test? If so, which one? And what are the differences?  Davida Amkraut: Okay. So I definitely recommend they give it a shot. Davida Amkraut: Right? I definitely recommend that. Then you don't have the should have, could have, would have, right. We, we never wanted the college admission process for there to be a doubt. Oh, I wish I would have at least tried to take that test. Maybe that would have, made the difference. Davida Amkraut: Take the test, try it out, try out both the act and the SATs. You don't even need to try them out in a real life situation. You can go online and you can sit for a test and then self in, and then you can then self score your yourself. And you can see which tests you've done better on.  Davida Amkraut: So the ACT versus the SAT is, oh, you know, a long standing difference. Act is notoriously known. If you are a fast test taker, which means that you can work well under pressure. That is the test for you. Right. It's a time task and it moves very, very quickly. And also as a test that doesn't necessarily test so much your analytical skills, but it tests, whether or not you can read for comprehension, if that makes sense. Susan Stone: Like an aptitude test, correct?  Davida Amkraut: Aptitude test  Davida Amkraut: Aptitude test like the LSAT yeah. Davida Amkraut: Correct. Correct. And also the ACT has a whole science section, which the SAT doesn't have. So if you're not, uh, like if you're not loving science, probably, that might be a sign for you to switch over to the SATs  Susan Stone: science section. Really a reading  Davida Amkraut: section. It's an interpreting more of data and graphs and information like that. Davida Amkraut: And if that's not your strong point, so some kids struggle with that also in a time situation, you might need that more time. I can move on to the sat, but. With the caveat that this whole sat is switching over to a digital format, right?  Davida Amkraut: Switching over to a digital format for our children, our students who are now current ninth graders. So if you have a child who is a current ninth grader, by the time they are taking tests in their junior and senior year, they are not no longer going to have a paper to pen edition. They are going to be completely digital. Davida Amkraut: The test will not be done at home. It will be done at a testing center. The college board is really pushing for it to be done in schools, not at testing centers and also during the day, so that schools could administer these these tests during the school day.  Davida Amkraut: The college board thinks that this is a great movement. And that it will eliminate a lot of things that were difficult with the paper to pen issue like shipping, like finding proctors, things like that. Many people in the test optional world who like really favor test optional, just say, this is a repackaging of a tool that is a two to three hour test. That is really not predictive of how a student is going to behave or learn in four years. Davida Amkraut: So. It's like again, and with everything there are debates and there are positives and there are negatives. Some students don't really work so well without paper to pen. Some students might not have some schools might not have access to enough internet to have these tests really support what they need to do in their schools. Davida Amkraut: So. It's going to be an interesting shift. And I think that your guess is as good as mine. Nobody really knows how it's going to take off. The first US debut of this will be in the PSA Ts in October of 2023. And then in 2024, the SAT is going completely digital.  Susan Stone: So basically my kids who are a little older, my last one is a sophomore rising junior won't be impacted. But Christina, yeah, this is your future. Kristina Supler: It was really interesting to see the impact of COVID on college admissions and visits and the testing. And I think as we continue on the changes are only going to continue. I'm wondering for students who elect not to take standardized tests for whatever reason, right? Kristina Supler: No judgment or who don't submit their scores. How do those students really stand out from the crowd of thousands and thousands of applicants to, to have their application pop?  Davida Amkraut: Right. So I like to think of the college admission process or the application as a stool. And you have different legs that support the seat of the stool. Davida Amkraut: So you have one leg is the rigor of curriculum that your child has taken advantage of, right? The school that they're applying to get to school profile, which says how many APs are offered, how many IBs are offered, what kind of scores those students have, whatever it is. Davida Amkraut: There's a school profile in the context of the school that your child attends, is he or she are they taking advantage of the rigor? Right? Is there, and  Susan Stone: I just wanted to run because I think this is important. You touched on it. Do colleges care. Cause I've heard many lectures on this aP v IB.  Davida Amkraut: So I will say some colleges prefer AP. I will say there are some I have had a lot of surprises with students who are very similar profile, but if they're an IB student versus an AP student, my AP students somehow always seem to have the advantage. That's my little sample. Like, I don't want to say that that's gospel, but that sort of, the trend that I notice but  Susan Stone: you know what, that's consistent with the school that my daughter attends that they chose to stay AP and they rejected IB because they noticed that you're a leg down from the AP kids. Davida Amkraut: Right. And I think also the curriculum for the IB is way more demanding and hard for schools to support. Right. And that's just also another piece to it. So I would say that one leg of the stool is that rigor curriculum. Another leg of the stool is your extracurricular activity. Davida Amkraut: What are the meaningful things that you're doing outside of the classroom. And when I say meaningful that aside from just sports. Right. Well, sports is a huge thing. I had a girl who was an equestrian and she literally had two activities cause there was no room in her day for another activity. If you're writing and you're, you know, working in the stables, that's about all you have. Davida Amkraut: When I say a meaningful activity, I'm saying that you don't belong to a club and you go once or twice. Right. Meaningful is that you are either assuming a leadership position you're seeing growth, whatever it looks like for each student. And I'm not going to argue, I'm not going to sit here and say that everybody has to be a president of a club. Davida Amkraut: And I think that's completely wrong because if we had a class filled with just presidents, it would be a terrible class because  Susan Stone: I want to make a caveat. And I want to see if you would agree with this. That when I went to a lecture once at a college on the admissions process. And basically what they said is, look, we have to fill our orchestra. Susan Stone: We have to fill our athletic teams. We have to fill our theater department. So let's say you have a student who is, I'm going to use equestrian, but they don't have a equestrian team. They might be more interested in that tuba player because they need a tuba player. Do you agree with that or disagree? Davida Amkraut: Totally agree with that. And I would imagine that that an equestrian probably is not going to apply to a school that doesn't have some sort of riding club or team. That's what I'm learning, but  Susan Stone: that's something that I feel very grateful in terms of the college planning process is that if you have a student who may want a broader college, that does not have an equestrian, then you say to that student in high school, you know, we that's great. Susan Stone: You want to do this, but you have to think about if you want to get into a different college what those colleges are looking for.  Davida Amkraut: Correct. And I also think for those students who, who like have that one interest, you can find things within your school day to do that sort of extends beyond the stables. Davida Amkraut: So I do think that colleges are looking for diversity, not only in ethnicity and race. They're also looking at diversity of interest as well. They want to see like the sort of well-rounded student. I also stress to my S my clients. You need to do what you love. You should not do something just because you think it's going to get you into college. Davida Amkraut: You have to still live your most authentic self. And I think that is really an important lesson for our youth. I mean, live your authentic self, but challenge yourself at the same time by joining new things. And that there's such a balance, strike that balance, but do it for the right reasons. Susan Stone: I'm going to give you one last question. And we will have to schedule you back cause we are not done with  Kristina Supler: college Devita,  Susan Stone: Do standardized test scores. Look, college is really expensive. Does it have any impact on scholarships?  Davida Amkraut: It used to be used as a metric to decide for merit pre pandemic. Davida Amkraut: They used to look at those SAT scores and these ACT scores and say, okay, I'm going to give this kid money. That has all shifted since the pandemic. And if schools are not, some schools might be using still the ACT and SATs, but most schools have migrated away from that in terms of their metrics.  Susan Stone: Oh, my gosh,  Kristina Supler: Davida, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been really wonderful chatting with you and again, such invaluable information for our listeners. So we'll have to do this again.  Davida Amkraut: All right. The pleasure was all mine, ladies. 

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by a parent who we will refer to as “Jane Doe,” who had to experience watching her son face prosecution for rape and kidnapping. And after a long and agonizing trial, her son was found not guilty by a jury after only 15 minutes of deliberation.  The conversation includes how a fling turned into a criminal charge and years of distress, the realistic, negative impact of false accusations on victims and their families, and prevention and coping mechanisms for a defendant and their families during prosecution. Links: Susan Stone Kristina Supler Show Notes: How a casual relationship spiraled out of control (01:38) How the truth became overshadowed by the school, parents, the accuser, the police, and the justice system (03:07) The result of a criminal charge, indictment, 2 trials, and years of agony (03:38) Why parents need to discuss the dangers of hookup culture with their children (04:30) The role hookup and cancel culture has played in her son's false rape accusation (06:22) The agony of witnessing your child's life stop and become turned over to the justice system (07:46) The lack of support from the school administration and the impact this had on the child's siblings at the same school (09:51) A remarkable turn of events: how good acquaintances turned into the best support system one could ask for (10:27) How one student's false accusation instilled a fear on the entire student body (11:35) Navigating the unknown world of the justice system as a terrified parent (13:25) The living purgatory of waiting for a second trial (16:36) Juggling college and preparing for a new trial (17:27) The necessity and precautions of seeking external support to cope with the stress of an ongoing trial (18:44) What it's really like for a family to deal with the tension of a trial (20:53) How Jane found solace in her community and other mothers going through what her family was experiencing (23:15) Finding some closure through filing and settling a defamation and malicious prosecution lawsuit after acquittal (26:50) Transcript: Kristina Supler: Today's episode is the epitome of real talk. We're joined by a parent who will refer to as Jane Doe.  Kristina Supler: Jane sadly had to live through the experience of watching her son face prosecution for rape and kidnapping. And after a long trial, agonizing, her son was found not guilty by a jury after only 15 minutes of deliberation. Kristina Supler: And I'm sure those 15 minutes were the longest 15 minutes of her life. Jane has graciously agreed to talk to us today about her experience.  Susan Stone: And we thank you, Jane for coming today. And, Christina, we deal every day in our practice with not just students going through title nine process, but sadly, we have had a lot of interplay between the national title nine process and the criminal justice system. Susan Stone: And we privately have conversations and this is the first time. On our podcast, where we have had a parent tell their story. So thank you for coming. And our first question would be without revealing identities, because we want to be sensitive to your privacy and that of your child. But can you briefly describe Jane what the allegations were that were lodged against your son? Susan Stone: Tell your story.  Jane Doe: I I'd be happy to. And thank you so much for inviting me here today. It's an honor to talk about this, uh, process because of what our family has been through. Um, shortly after he graduated high school, my son was accused of rape and kidnapping by a girl with whom he had a casual relationship.  Jane Doe: They had had an interaction at a party, and again, they were known to each other, but they had interacted at a party and shortly after their interaction was over, she accused him of rape. And, uh, as I say at that moment, the train left the station. And from there. She reported the incident to her parents who then of course, as any parent would do took action, not knowing. Jane Doe: Any facts, of course, but just what their daughter had told them. And they took action. She went through the process of going to the hospital and a number of events that occurred when you do that, when you make an accusation and from there forward, It just felt like a bomb dropped and there was no, no control over what was going to happen from there. Jane Doe: And I interject that the truth from that moment forward did not seem to matter. And she went through these, these stages. And there were many interactions between the school and us as parents, the school and the, the girl, the accuser, the police of course became involved. And then of course the justice system does its thing in whatever way it does that. Jane Doe: There began the Odyssey of this accusation that then turned into a criminal charge, which then turned into an indictment, which then turned into not one, but two trials due to a, um, I can't think of the word right now. We miss, uh, miss trial and and then of course ultimately Him being found guilty, not guilty in very quick record time. Jane Doe: In fact they, as a jury agreed within moments that of course he was not guilty and that, that of course would be the outcome. So we got through that, that took years.  Kristina Supler: It's so important in our listeners. Hear your story, Jane, because Susan and I regularly speak across the country. On issues that essentially at the heart of it, legal issues tied to hookup culture. Kristina Supler: Right. And, you know, we say hookup culture without judgment, but we want students and families to understand, and we really encourage parents to speak with their children about, you know, possible consequences for various decisions. Students make, I mean, Susan, we sadly have seen many cases Not all that different from what Jane and her family had to go through. Susan Stone: I'm just thinking about yesterday, Kristina, when we had a student who was going through a hearing saying that the number one learning lesson is to be careful about casual sex, because when you hook up with someone, you don't really know, you don't know what they're thinking and how they feel during the whole sexual experience. Susan Stone: And. Intimacy and mixed with the casual nature of the heck, the hookup, seeing them collide. Did you ever have a conversation about hookup culture?  Jane Doe: Uh, no, actually I didn't. Um, and it isn't that I shouldn't have, it certainly would have would've made sense. This was a number of years ago. Jane Doe: I think before hookup culture was, was more in our everyday vernacular  Kristina Supler: I think also. It's probably. Year after year and with the rise of social media, because it correct me if I'm wrong, but when your family was going through this social media and cell phones and texting weren't what it is now. And I think that hookup culture cancel culture, all of those cultural phenomenons that we experienced day in and day out. Kristina Supler: It's a little different now than when your son went through this, is that correct?  Jane Doe: Yes. Yes. It didn't have the fervor that it does now. It was just at the forefront and there were the Duke lacrosse case and there was a lot of questions. There were a lot of articles, a lot of I think unknowns about this process because it was, it was a good number of years ago. Jane Doe: And I think there's some more understanding of it. And also, as you mentioned, the cancel culture is much more extreme now. It felt very strange then to be just sort of X-ing these children out of their lives. I mean, whether it was school or college or a team or any of those things, like we do that very quickly now, but not so much. Kristina Supler: And to hear you mention or make reference to the Duke lacrosse case. Cause I think that was a case, not that long ago, but nevertheless, one of those massive cases that really brought to the forefront, the idea that false accusations happen  Susan Stone: first, I think that brought it into the public foray, but Jane, can you tell us what it was like as a parent watching your son go through this process, going through the criminal justice system, how did it feel? Susan Stone: What were you going through?  Jane Doe: I so appreciate that question because I think we often don't stop to wonder what it is like for the family and the parents. It was, and is the most agonizing thing I've ever, ever experienced. Mostly because watching my son go from a vibrant, functional, productive person who was at the forefront of his life, he had just graduated from high school, was, um, off to the next phase, which was going to be college. Jane Doe: And it just turned on a dime. And he of course plummeted and mainly it was agonizing, because at the, at the moment at which this all happened, his life stopped. And all of the sudden he became what I say is the property of the justice system. And you have all very little freedom, then you, you can't, you know, do anything other than they tell you, you can do. Jane Doe: And  Kristina Supler: It was at that moment that he was launching into adulthood and starting his life, everything came crashing down. It sounds like,  Susan Stone: and it becomes, it defines you. And it's hard to get out from that.  Kristina Supler: Can you tell us, I'm curious to hear looking back, what was your experience like for, for yourself and your family in terms of relationships with other friends and family people supporting you as you lived through the ordeal. Were people supportive? Or did you feel like people were distancing themselves from your family, your son.  Susan Stone: I love that question, Christina. Cause I know myself, when my family went through trauma, there were stages. There's the initial stage where people are very supportive and then there are people who, as I say, get off the train and then, you know, you go through different phases. Susan Stone: Jane, can you relate to that?  Jane Doe: Yes, very much. It was interesting to watch because we were in a school environment and I still had other children in that same school, uh, and, and related schools, but in my son was in the same school. And so it was very interesting to watch most certainly the school administration n ot supportive in any way, shape or form, which was really distressing and frightening at times, again, because I had another child in school. Jane Doe: And I did, I was heartened by the actions of friends. Not even my closest friends, because from them, of course, I would expect, support and kindness and love, but people with whom I was a good acquaintance, let's say who and several of them who stepped up and almost literally walked with me every single step of the way, including. Jane Doe: Every minute of the trials. And that to me was the most remarkable part of this. But then of course, on the other side, people that I would have hoped I could count on did not, they fell away because they were intimidated by society or by the school, the school's behavior, or maybe other factors.  Kristina Supler: Did you feel, I'm curious to hear your observations where your other children on. Kristina Supler: Did they experience fallout from it as well? In terms of friends and peer relationships, or were they able to maintain some sense of normalcy in their life as this was unfolding?  Jane Doe: Peer relationships, I would say remained stable for the most part. I think it created a lot of fear among the student body as a whole. Jane Doe: Just that something like this could happen, that you don't know, you're sort of living life one way. And then somebody does something that doesn't seem like it has any merit. But then there's a lot of questions. Well, if it doesn't have merit, then why is all this happening? So there was a lot of fear sowed among the student body, by the administration. Jane Doe: And that deeply, deeply affected, um, my, my son who remained at the school, but I would say his peer group was. Was supportive and helpful to the extent that they could be. I think there were also some parental limitations placed on, on those kids just because parents were also afraid. Wow.  Susan Stone: I want to circle back briefly to the both trials. And of course you have to emphasize while you were so integral, it really was your child that was the dependent. But as a minor strategic decisions and calls need to be made by a parent or as your child, I don't know if your child was a minor or not at the time.  Jane Doe: No, he was not.  Susan Stone: Were there difficult decisions that you had to make, or did you leave it all up to your child? Kristina Supler: Susan? Are you talking legal decisions or what type of decisions.  Susan Stone: I'm going to ask you, Jane, what decisions could you have to make if at all, or did you just defer to your legal team and student? Jane Doe: Sure. I, because I am definitely a mama bear and I was going to protect my child and my other children at all costs. Jane Doe: And so of course I was integral into greatly involved in the, in the process. I trusted our attorneys, which were not our first attorneys, but, um, we finally found the ones that were definitely right for us. I trusted them and I trust them to this day. Not that I need them and I hope I don't, but I trust them with our lives. Jane Doe: But the decision, ultimately, as you guys both know, comes down to the person who is the defendant and they have to make the ultimate call about whether a plea is accepted, uh, that sort of thing. And I'll tell you the most frightening moment of my life was the beginning of the very first trial before the mistrial, when, and I had no idea how the justice system worked, no idea at all. Kristina Supler: You'd never really had contact with it before. So would you and you never in your wildest dreams would imagine that you'd be involved with much less your child, right,  Jane Doe: exactly. Right. Didn't know where the courthouse was. Didn't know anything about it. And what happened is it's again, I'm sure you both know very well all too well right in the beginning of the very first day the prosecution comes in and tries to make a deal, which evidently happens all the time. Jane Doe: I did not know that. And we were faced and then faced again the next day and the next day with how about we give you this, how bad he takes this plea? How bout, how about, you know, we make this all go away and he just pleads to a felony. I don't even remember what the numbers are. And it was paralyzing terrifying because you are faced with a decision that feels like life or death. Jane Doe: And we understood very well that if for some reason, this trial did not go our way there was a minimum mandatory sentence for rape and kidnapping  Susan Stone: Twelve and a half years, kristina. How long?  Kristina Supler: Yeah. I mean, it can get complicated under, under the laws in Ohio, but certainly the decision to go forward to trial by your son was a massive decision that would take a lot of thoughts and reflection and, and bravery as well because the penalties are so high. Kristina Supler: And if. The jury doesn't see it the way you hope it's, you know, I can't imagine what it's like for a parent to have to, sit and watch because of course as you pointed out Jane, Susan, and I see this regularly in our practice, being a lawyer and going through it in our professional capacity is, is very different from the experience of parents and loved ones. Susan Stone: After the first mistrial was an offer for a plea renewal.  Jane Doe: No. Wow. I don't think so. I can't remember to tell you the truth. Susan Stone: So did you have to go through an entire trial the second time?  Jane Doe: Oh, yes. Oh yes, yes. Start to finish. To the right, right through the jury selection, everything. Oh yeah. And, and it didn't occur of course for several months because the first trial ended in that Ms. Jane Doe: Child just a few days or maybe even two days after it began. And then. I again, I don't even really, to this day, understand how their justice system works in an intricate way, but then it was several months of living in purgatory until the next trial began. And it was him having, you know, my son having to live every day as if everything is okay. Jane Doe: And then at the same time preparing for, for the next trial.  Susan Stone: Was there a college acceptance that had to be delayed?  Jane Doe: Well, not delayed. Uh, he, he went, but they made the school was very accommodating and very understanding and they figured out ways for him to miss weeks, for the trial and even have time off for preparation and that sort of thing. Jane Doe: And to do the work just, you know, when he could, they were very accommodating. So that was very lucky. And he did end up graduating on time, which felt like a miracle in a lot of ways.  Kristina Supler: So Jane, your son of course it was found not guilty thing. Thank goodness. But so often, no matter what the outcome is, criminal cases, they just take a toll on everyone involved the defendants, the family. And we try to remind our clients that no, no matter what the circumstances, a criminal case, a campus title IX case, even a regular student misconduct case because Susan and I work in, in all those, um, settings, what type of supports should, based on your experience, do you think parents really need to be mindful about providing for their child as their child goes through any type of processing.  Jane Doe: I very much appreciate that question. I, and I have thoughts about it as much as one might feel. And I did feel this way that I could manage it all my own. Intense deep fear and stress manage my other children and certainly support my son. It's impossible to do it yourself. Jane Doe: And so what I did was get him some outside support through the psychological community. Get him. A therapist with whom he could work. And I would offer a word of caution about that only that the psychologist or whomever is the mental health practitioner needs to understand deeply and fully that this is a criminal matter. Jane Doe: And. You know that person, that practitioner may well end up in the middle of the case because of course the other side subpoenas everything. And, and so that is just a word of caution about how to work with your mental health practitioner while supporting cause that did, uh, that was an interesting turn that, that it took. Jane Doe: Uh, but it was, it was good for him to have outside support somebody. Um, and, and because you're so immersed in this process, your family is just sucked down a rabbit hole that is very hard to get out of and see the light of day. It's important to have that outside support and, um, and, and for me as well, and the rest of our family, my other kids were deeply, deeply impacted by this. And even today, many years later my, my other kids we'll talk about what that was like for them, particularly my daughter, who's a bit of a chatty Cathy, and she will to this day talk about what it was like for her to be in, in school and trying to live as. Jane Doe: Every day was just a normal day and it wasn't Kristina Supler: How do you tell the kids when they wake up in the morning, you know, just get out of bed. We got to eat breakfast, go to school, put one foot in front of the other. Cause they can only imagine at a certain point. They're just say I can't handle this. I can't do it, mom. Kristina Supler: How did, how did you keep everyone going?  Jane Doe: Lots of lots of talking about it. Even to the extent that my, my daughter would say, I can't talk about it anymore, mom, I'm fine for now. You know, let's take it up later or. Inviting my children to just be open and honest about their feelings. But I have to say I did have a, an emotional limit because I was so overwhelmed and terrified that I think my stress definitely inhibited their ability to function as well as they could have my older  Susan Stone: Domino's, you know, it you're the first domino. Jane Doe: Yes. And my son who remained at the school of course, because he was a senior, so he wasn't going to change schools. And he had a great support group there, but he had as boys often do more than girls had sematic symptoms that were very strong and. Uh, terrible backache that did not leave for months despite, you know, treatment and trying to work it through and understanding that it was sematic but it was really hard to watch because he was an athlete and. Jane Doe: It's gonna come out somewhere and that's where it impacted him. So it's sort of another word of caution to be watchful about the impact of this on the other children, not only your, your child who's in, in harm's way, but the other children, and to watch for smaller, more subtle signs of impact on them, they might not voice it, but they might have a chronic stomach ache headache. Backache  Susan Stone: Grades slipping, friend change, change group. But you know, I want to switch gears because we always forget mom. Mothers are always the last to get attention. So how did you heal and what would you tell? Because you know everything at the end of the day, no offense dads, uh, no offense at all. You guys you're rock to the let's face. Susan Stone: Mom, you're numero UNO. And if you fall, everything happened. So what did you do to keep yourself up and how did you heal afterwards?  Jane Doe: I relied heavily on my friends all the way through and my family, of course but all the way through, from the beginning, really to this moment, I mean, really I've had many hours and hours and hours of just conversation and sort of unloading, if you will, about the topic. I also connected accidentally at first and then purposely with other mothers and really parents who have been through this or were going through it at the same time. So I was accidentally connected at first with at least two other families. Jane Doe: And through that, my being able to support them because I was a little bit ahead in the process. It was a wonderful feeling for me that it wasn't right.  Susan Stone: You didn't feel alone. Yeah. And just to be able, sometimes we get out of our own head helping others. And also, I just have to interject, I mean, you're talking to someone, Jane, who obviously worked very closely in her practice with a female partner who supports me every day of my life and my own circle of friends. I just, every woman needs a close community of good girlfriends. It can't be, I mean, I'm sh the hard part of saying it's always your spouse, the spouse is going through it to.  Jane Doe: Exactly. Yes, exactly. Right.  Susan Stone: Shout out to girlfriend's right?  Jane Doe: Yes. Yes. And to those who had the good sense to say to these other families, gosh, you need support. And I just happened to know somebody who is some steps forward or at this point, You know, all the way forward in the process. Jane Doe: It was, it was wonderful to be connected, not just for them, but as you said to, to give back and feel like, okay, the focus isn't just about us. There are lots of other terrible things happening and, and I can help. Jane Doe: And that was a wonderful, wonderful feeling.  Kristina Supler: So I think that. It's so great to hear you talk about that, Jane, your, your ability to connect with others, going through the process because Susan and I, when, when we're working with families in various stages of crisis, because of campus or legal proceedings, uh, albeit criminal or civil, because let's face it, civil litigation takes a huge toll on, on parties and families as well. Kristina Supler: It's just essential that people find others. And when possible we try to connect in our experience. We, because as you know, we, in addition to doing criminal work, we file lawsuits on behalf of students. Um, particularly in the title nine landscape, when things don't quite turn out the way we believe they should. Kristina Supler: And in our lawsuits we often find ourselves suing parties and individuals for defamation and other claims along those lines. And unfortunately, I think your family had the experience just when you thought the criminal chapter was closed and you're done with court. You found yourself back in court, uh, in, in the civil context. Kristina Supler: So based on that experience, What advice would you give to parents and families who are contemplating civil litigation?  Susan Stone: I just want to interject you had a positive outcome, correct?  Jane Doe: Yes, very much. And it was the civil portion of this story was facilitated by my son and me. We fell. So I did, honestly, I felt so strongly and I I had such clarity about his innocence and about the injustice in this process that I knew from the beginning that I was going to at least try to have a balance brought at the end of the nightmare.  Jane Doe: And so once the, the criminal portion concluded, uh, with his, you know, being found, not guilty, I got to work and I gathered the resources that I felt I needed. Jane Doe: It was not easy. I'll tell you to gather the resources in the legal community to take this case to civil. So civil trial, if possible. And so we filed a lawsuit of defamation and miss prosec prosecutor helped me, uh, or  Kristina Supler: Malicious prosecution. Jane Doe: Malicious prosecution. Thank you. Uh, I filed that in a way back file cabinet in my brain. Jane Doe: And so we filed that and. And we got very far in fact, all the way to the end of the process, which we've been told many times is a miracle because that is not an easy process. And those are not easy charges to, or if you say charges to to. Claims a to level and to be, I guess, triumphant in the end, but we were because the merits of the case were seen by those who were examining it on, on the other side. Jane Doe: And they at the 11th hour, of course came forward with within a settlement offer and. It did, in some ways, I think we had some sort of fantasy as it were that a civil trial would really get to tell the other side, the real story, the lies that were perpetrated, but short of that, yes, it did bring closure, in the settlement portion. Jane Doe: Of course, it's just under, it's just in a courtroom. I don't know, with the judge and then it's done. Right there. Susan Stone: I mean, we could talk to for forever and ever about this, but, and we're running out of time. So I'm just have one last question before Kristina concludes. If you had one quick piece of advice for parents, what would that be? Jane Doe: Find your strength from wherever you can get it. Rely on whomever you need, but, but be careful, you know, really examine where that, where that support is coming from and stay the course. Stay the course. Because your, your child needs you needs you. And not only at that moment, but for the rest of his or her life as this impact, you know, will take its toll. Jane Doe: So, so find your strength and stay the course, and don't be afraid. It is a terrifying situation. And I understand that, and you can indulge that, but, but you gotta stay strong because the outcome is could be terrifying and, and you need to, to have perspective and stay strong.  Kristina Supler: Jane, thanks for joining us today. Kristina Supler: Really, really appreciate you opening up and speaking to us and our listeners about some very personal and painful things that your family has gone through, but you you're, you're here now. You made it through. And I think that's, that's really important to our listeners. 

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Dr. Jill Grimes, a family physician, award-winning author, and media medical expert.  They discuss medical issues that college students face while they're away from home.  The conversation includes practical tips that college students actually want to hear about, prevention and coping with anxiety and other mental health issues at the collegiate level, and alcohol consumption and marijuana addiction myths and misconceptions. Links Mentioned: Book: Ultimate College Student Health Handbook Student Defense: studentdefense.kjk.com Show Notes: The experiences that snowballed Dr. Grimes' prowess in the medical field, namely for college students (0:36) The essential components of a practical first aid kit for a college student (2:03) How to encourage college students to practice safe oral sex (04:08) Oral herpes and the means it can be spread, among other sexually transmitted infections (05:34) Why Dr. Grimes wrote a book to spread awareness of sexually transmitted diseases (06:45) The distinction between traditional therapy and Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT) (09:06) Pragmatic alternatives to alleviating mental health concerns in spite of limited access to campus health centers (12:29) How this non-addictive drug can help manage anxiety in college students (14:08) Collegiate study skills courses as a means of decreasing test anxiety altogether(16:54) Breaking the stigma that only students who are struggling academically need tutoring (18:17) A first-hand tip from college professors that every parent can easily do to help their child succeed (19:01) An ace tip to creating an efficient study group (19:45) Addiction and medicinal marijuana use to cope with anxiety (21:15) The potentially harmful contents of marijuana (21:54) A dangerous misconception of marijuana use and coping with mental health issues (23:13) What parents and students need to know about blackout drinking and the role it plays in sexual harassment (26:55) The “proper” alcohol consumption method as advised by a licensed physician to prevent blackout drinking (29:14) Additional medical issues students faced at the onset of COVID (31:21) Future topics to be included in the Ultimate College Student Health Handbook; from how to create a safe environment in the event of a seizure, diabetes, and navigating the healthcare system in college (32:11) Transcript: Susan Stone: Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Kristina Supler. We're full-time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to real life with real candid conversations.  Susan Stone: Today's topic is medical issues that college students face while they're away from home. We're pleased to be joined by Dr. Jill Grimes, author of the Ultimate College Student Health Handbook. Your guide to everything from hangovers to homesickness.  Kristina Supler: Dr. Grimes is a board certified family physician with a passion for practical evidence-based advice for students of all ages. After spending over 20 years in private practice in Austin, Texas, Dr. Grimes transitioned to a campus health center and through her work with college students on a daily basis, she's really come to understand the most common medical issues that college students experience. And this experience has in part contributed to. Dr. Grimes writing over six books.  Kristina Supler: Dr. Grimes, we're so pleased to have you with us today. Welcome.  Dr. Jill Grimes: Thanks so much for having me. I'm delighted to be here.  Susan Stone: I have to tell you, I devoured your book in a day. And I think we were chatting Kristina while we were working on the sound and all this administrative stuff. And I was saying it made me re-go go back to my daughter and say, Do you wipe from front to back? Kristina Supler: The dreaded UTI problem.  Kristina Supler: Also was so great about this book. Cause I was reading it is, I mean, to your point, Susan, The book contained really practical health advice, not just for students, but people that, you know, just never hurts to brush up on  Susan Stone: don't puke in a sink.  Dr. Jill Grimes: Uh,  Susan Stone: but if you have to get sick and you can't make the toilet go for a wastepaper basket, right. Doctor Grimes?  Dr. Jill Grimes: Absolutely. Or here's a thought as you're making that first aid kit that you're going to put together for your college students to send them off, you know the doggy poop bags that come in a roll, hello, easy solution. Put those in the first aid kit that way, you know, if they're feeling queasy, they've got it by them side, you can throw up in that, throw it away. Dr. Jill Grimes: I mean, this, this is the kind of practical information I like to dish out. Because, you know, I was saying that the beginning of each semester, the fall semester, every college campus has a plumbing problem and people, this is a big part of it.  Kristina Supler: I can't imagine. Well, it's also interesting because Susan and I were talking and, you know, Susan was reflecting on, her gifts that she gives to high school graduates heading off to college, or just preparing care packages for good luck, best wishes. Kristina Supler: And this book is a great guide for the first aid kit and everything else. I'm totally envisioning Susan putting together a really nice, cute, gift.  Susan Stone: I know that. I'm going to cut to the chase. All right. Gotta talk to you about a topic. Okay.  Kristina Supler: Hard hitting topics.  Susan Stone: I'm starting with the big one. You talk through your book about the use of flavored condoms. Susan Stone: Even during oral sex. Let's cut to the chase, Dr. Grimes kids every day about sex and what we're seeing a rise of plan B and students not even using condom during intercourse. Do you really think anyone's going to use a flavored barrier protection during oral sex?  Dr. Jill Grimes: Well, that's the hope and that's why we talk about it. Dr. Jill Grimes: And I'll tell you what, I'm just saying. Those two words together: flavored condoms. I talk to young people all the time and I will tell you what gets through. That's something that really gets their attention because. Say when we switch them or, uh, you know, we kind of do risky business. We talk about drugs, sex, alcohol, whatever.  Susan Stone: The fun stuff, right?  Dr. Jill Grimes: Yeah, exactly. When I'm talking with them, you know, I'll say, why do you think that there are flavored condoms? Because people say, well, not people don't really you don't, why would you use condoms with oral sex? Nobody does that. And then I say, well, why do you think there's flavored condoms? Dr. Jill Grimes: And it's like this little light bulb bumps on over their head. They're like, oh! Also not to be crass, but, I have yet to hear about any male that refused oral sex. If someone, uh, if, you know, if asked to wear a condom to use a condom. It's, it's not a turn under.  Kristina Supler: Wow. That's a good tip. No pun intended. Susan Stone: Oh my gosh. Dr. Jill Grimes: And this is how we're starting the podcast, ladies.  Susan Stone: We're getting into it.  Kristina Supler: Um, you know, it, wasn't a really great practice pointer though, for us as well, because similar to you, Susan and I speak with college students about their sex lives and really personal, intimate details every day, given the nature of our law practice. And I have to say, this is flavored condoms. Kristina Supler: I don't recall ever talking about that with the student. And so, and we tried to in a very nonjudgmental way, provide some real world right. life advice about how to more safely engage in sex and consent and STIs and all of that. So this is certainly something good for us to keep in mind  Dr. Jill Grimes: and for the listeners, I want to clarify that people are like, but again, why, why do you want to do that? Dr. Jill Grimes: The reason is that sexually transmitted infections can and are transmitted with oral sex. If someone has a cold sore, Cold sore fever, blister, whatever you want to call it. That is oral herpes. And they may not have gotten it sexually. Most people do not get their oral herpes sexually. Most people get it from sharing a drink or, you know, kissing within a family or whatever. Dr. Jill Grimes: It's, you know, if somebody in your family has cold sores, usually a lot of people in the family have it because it's really, really common. So not a big deal, but let's call it what it is. Oral herpes is oral herpes, right? These cold sores fever, blisters. Whether or not someone has a fever blister today if they put their mouth on someone else's genitals with no barriers, they can pass that on and give that person genital herpes. Dr. Jill Grimes: If that person themselves doesn't already have oral herpes, if that makes sense.  Susan Stone: And no sharing of lipstick. No lipstick sharing.  Dr. Jill Grimes: Lipsticks, please. Don't don't share mascara. That's equally gross. That has nothing to do with STIs. You know, you don't want to be sharing bacteria from your mascara. Anyway, so yeah, so that's, that's why. And honestly, the whole reason I wrote my very first book was called Seductive Delusions: How Everyday People Catch STDs. Uh, cause you know, who doesn't want to write a book about STDs. Right, people? Dr. Jill Grimes: But point is the whole reason I started thinking about sharing stories, which is what that book does with accurate information is because so many of my patients in my private practice, which was a very, you know, well-to-do area, people are, will educated well off. Dr. Jill Grimes: And they were shocked when they came in with what they thought was, um, spider bites. Bug bites. Yeah, almost everyone thinks it's some kind of bite when they get genital herpes and it's not actually on their genitals, but it's near it. It's on their upper thigh or on their rear end. And they have no idea what it is, but it's this little cluster of red listers and it's, it's genital herpes and that's what it comes from. Dr. Jill Grimes: So anyway, so I've like, I've got to find a better way to talk about this subject so that we can not have this happen. Because let me tell you, you guys know you take a young person who is confident and excited and pumped about their future, and they suddenly have genital warts or genital herpes, they don't feel good about themselves anymore. Susan Stone: Speaking about self-esteem.  Dr. Jill Grimes: Yeah, so let's,  Kristina Supler: let's, let's take a left turn. Uh, may is mental health awareness month. And Susan and I write a lot about this topic through our legal work with students who have debilitating depression and anxiety. And it seems a running theme in your book is really advocating for CBT or cognitive behavior therapy. Kristina Supler: You know, you write about how it's a really good treatment modality for homesickness, test anxiety, even the dreaded bathroom anxiety. So can you describe for us this,  Kristina Supler: this tells us more about this.  Susan Stone: I just want to interject. I just, Kristina did you get that article I forwarded to yesterday, from the New York times. Kristina Supler: Yeah.  Susan Stone: Did you see that article that hundreds of suicidal teens are now sleeping in emergency rooms every night, because there's not enough places for them and facility. So we really do have to focus on mental health and we're curious what you need, what you can now offer.  Dr. Jill Grimes: All right. So, um, so let's, let's talk about cognitive behavioral therapy. Dr. Jill Grimes: So we say CBT, which is not to be confused with CBD CBD oil. We're saying CBT. So cognitive behavioral therapy. And how I describe it is like, this is because people you get the immediate eye roll. You know, you say. Look, some say someone's having terrible anxiety and sits test anxiety. And one of the things we talk about is is this type of therapy and, you know, get the eye roll. Dr. Jill Grimes: I'm like, no, no, no. This is not lay down on the couch. And talk about all your mother's failures. This is, this is short, very goal directed therapy, sometimes just one or two sessions. And it's all about identifying errant thinking. So basically how we react to something is much more about our, our kind of our gut reaction, if you will, than an intellectual process. Dr. Jill Grimes: So for example, let's talk about flying on a plane. I have fear of flying. A lot of people, 40% of the population has fear of flying. And so I hit a bump of turbulence and I go immediately to from, you know, oh, you know, it's choppy air waves to, oh my gosh, the plane's going to crash them to orphan my children. Dr. Jill Grimes: They're never going to get over this and they're not going to a life. Yeah. Like I just go zero to 180 and that is not logical. And I can tell you it's not logical. But I'm having to stop that process is different. And so there's a lot of things that we can do to stop that process.  Dr. Jill Grimes: In the college setting, what we mostly see this with, or the best example I think is test anxiety. So somebody bombs a quiz. Now let me just say, this happens all the time. Especially to freshmen. They may have breezed through high school, or maybe they worked super hard through high school, but now they're in a new setting. They take their first, it's always general gen chem, general chemistry. Dr. Jill Grimes: The pre-meds who are so intent and terrified of making a B, and they don't even make a, B, maybe they make a C. And now they're terrified. And that was the quiz, but they go from, oh my gosh, I'm going to, I'm going to flunk the test. I'm gonna flunk the course. I'm gonna lose my scholarship. I will never get into medical school. And, you know, substitute grad school, law school, whatever, and whatever course.  Dr. Jill Grimes: But this, this kind of thinking it's catastrophic thinking. And so one of the things that CBT does a really good job of doing it's identifying catastrophic thinking for what it is and stopping it. And instead putting other things in your brain, like, well, okay. In my high school, calculus class, you know what I, I made a B on a test and a quiz in that, and I survived that and I got through it. Dr. Jill Grimes: And so like thinking through concrete examples, that, that prove you are getting into a catastrophic thinking rather than something that's accurate,  Kristina Supler: Helps with the reframe. Reframe your thoughts before you, before you go over the edge.  Susan Stone: Well, I love that Dr. Grimes. Every day we hear from college students saying they can't get into their campus health center. Susan Stone: I mean, it's hard enough to get any appointment, much less someone who has the training and CBT. What are we going to do about this on campus?  Dr. Jill Grimes: So there's several things. One, I will say there is a huge movement within college campuses. There are everyone recognizes that this is a huge problem. Dr. Jill Grimes: They are trying to funnel more money into mental health. But right now, you know, football, mental health, where do you think the money's going? Right. And football generates money for colleges. I'm not picking on football.. I love football. But I'm just saying, we have to keep we as a nation, have to, to be prioritizing it more.  Dr. Jill Grimes: But a practical moment for an individual who is in college and can't get in. There's a couple of things. One they should be able to get in to see their primary care physician, either on or off campus.  Dr. Jill Grimes: And there are other things that we can do specifically for anxiety. One of the things we can do is we can prescribe a low dose beta blocker, which is actually a blood pressure medicine. But we use it in tiny doses, not to lower the person's blood pressure, but to actually slow their heart rate down. Because it turns out just like our bodies, our brains feed off our body's response of if your heart is racing, your, your brain starts going, oh my gosh, I'm panicking. Dr. Jill Grimes: The reverse is true if we are anxious, but our heart rate is staying slow our brain kind of. It takes a step back and sort of processes that maybe we're not that anxious  Kristina Supler: A beta blocker, would that be habit forming at all? I mean, a lot of families are very sensitive about no. Okay, good for parents to know.  Dr. Jill Grimes: There's no buzz. It's not addictive in any way, shape or form  Susan Stone: no street value. It's not like, no. Oh no. Like a benzodiazepine. Oh  Dr. Jill Grimes: No, it's it's again, not addictive. You don't combine it with other stuff to make it addictive. There's there's, it's, it's a very boring drug. It literally, it just slows your heart rate down and in the doses that we use, it doesn't even really affect your blood pressure. Dr. Jill Grimes: And I'll tell you what happens when I prescribed this, I typically will prescribe 10 pills and I will ask them cause you don't take it every day. It's not like a blood pressure medicine uses a blood pressure medicine that you have to take every day. This is an as needed. I've got a quiz today. I'm going to give a talk in my, history class. Dr. Jill Grimes: I'm giving a presentation and I'm anxious. I have stage fright. This is use it then. Okay. So, and so they take it and it slows their heart rate down. And what I had found with so many students one they comeback and like, I, you know, I get to be a hero for the day. They're like, you have just changed my entire course of college because now I'm now I was able to give this presentation or I was able to take this test and not blank out my brain didn't freeze. Dr. Jill Grimes: So one, they love it. Two they'll use it two or three times, and then it's in your backpack kind of thing. They got it. They know that if they need it. It's there and frequently they don't.  Kristina Supler: Well, let me ask you this. Let's talk about other prescriptions. I mean, Susan, you particularly with your special education work, deal a lot with students with executive functioning difficulties. Kristina Supler: And there's always that struggle with medication. I mean,  Susan Stone: you know what your chapter on test anxiety really sang to me, because the darling of our practices, our special education practice, which is for younger kids, obviously for IEP plans and 5 0 4 plans. And I love that you focused on executive function skills.  Susan Stone: Because I feel like every college should have a mandatory study skill course for all incoming freshmen and a lot of testing anxiety could be reduced with better habits that while they should've been addressed in high school, not many schools actually have that on the curriculum. Right. Do you feel, I'm going to ask you a really controversial question that if the study skills were better, And more nailed in how to approach learning that we would have a lot less anxiety and the less need for medication? Dr. Jill Grimes: I absolutely believe that on so many different levels. I have full disclosure, our older daughter, who I'm extremely proud of is about to get her doctorate in occupational therapy, focusing on pediatric autism. So, um,  Susan Stone: so we're all in the same sphere.  Dr. Jill Grimes: We're on the same team. I promise you. Yes. I think it's really important and you know, more and more colleges are having that freshmen study skills course. I think some of them are a lot more effective than others. Many of them, really just are not connecting with the students and they, they make fun of them and they, they joke about it. Oh my God, did you go to whatever, you know, study skills, blah, blah, blah.  Dr. Jill Grimes: But the reality is. There are there's, there's so many skills that I talk about brain dumps as an example that a brain dump, um, for our listeners is that you sit down to take a test and say, it's like a physics test with a whole bunch of formulas or a history test with a whole lot of dates. Dr. Jill Grimes: And basically the second that the test begins, you do a brain dump. You write down all those formulas. Cause usually it's like five formulas, right? Or five key dates. Um, you write them down on your test, you know, off to the side and then it's dumped out of your brain. And then you're not spending that part of your brain in a loop in the back of your brain the whole time while you're doing it thinking, I gotta remember this. I gotta remember this.  Dr. Jill Grimes: So that's the study technique. And there are so many little study tips like that. Um, I wish that get every college in the United States to give us their top tip, you know, and then we can post those and get those across to people.  Dr. Jill Grimes: Because students, when they hear that they should go to, tutoring, the smart students. It's interesting. The students with the highest grades in, in most schools across the board, all go to tutoring. So.  Susan Stone: The more highly selected the college, the more they go to tutoring. And back sometimes they get an academic trouble from going to tutoring and do Bronxville court. Dr. Jill Grimes: Exactly. And I, but I try and get that across to everybody because there's this perception that only the kids who are struggling need it. And you're not even on an even playing field. In my opinion, if you're not going to tutoring of some sort. And a lot of times it's just a matter of learning different techniques to study. Dr. Jill Grimes: I have a ton of friends who are professors and my dad was a professor. So, um, I have interest in this. I always ask them, you know, what, what's your favorite tip to give incoming freshmen or a new student to your class. And, you know, the first step of course is go meet the professors, go to their office hours. Dr. Jill Grimes: Just meet them, say hello. I had a conversation just a couple of weeks ago with a professor and she said that. I realized after you asked me that when students come and meet me she's like it's subconscious, but I think I have subconscious bias and I want to help them more because I know they've come to help me. Dr. Jill Grimes: She's like, I, I just, you know, she's been a professor for 30 years. It's just like, I never thought about it from that angle. But so one go to the professor, but, and go to the review sessions. But also when you study get a partner and as you go through the PowerPoint, which is what most people, most professors use now, right. Dr. Jill Grimes: As you're going through that in your study group of two or three people take turns asking each other, what do you think Dr. Rushing would ask on the test off this slide? And then ask it and then have the other one answer. And then, you know, then you've got this back and forth and it's much more interactive and it's better learning. Kristina Supler: Let me ask you this Dr. Grimes. Cause I know Susan and I, we do a lot of work in the field of academic misconduct. So students, for whatever reason who have been accused of something, perhaps rightly or wrongly, we hear from students sometimes that they have such test anxiety and trouble focusing marijuana really helps. Susan Stone: Oh, that's right. You know, you got it's it's. You can't even argue with them and it's not our job but we do.  Kristina Supler: Now in your book, you talk about you explore dependency on marijuana and I know Susan and I really appreciate that because in our experience from our, talking to college kids on a daily basis, marijuana has been completely, totally normalized. It's like taking a cough drop. Susan Stone: And they don't believe you can get addicted.  Kristina Supler: That's right. It seems like perhaps you disagree with that and you know, you have a different view. What, what would that, can I say?  Dr. Jill Grimes: Can I get on my soapbox and give you like four points about this?  Susan Stone: Yeah, we want marijuana. How about three? Because people remember things in three. Okay.  Dr. Jill Grimes: On the addiction side of it, there is conflicting evidence about addiction, but we do know that at the teenage brain about one in six will get addicted if they try marijuana. So the problem is for the college student, five out of six of their friends that they know never got addicted and that the they're right. Dr. Jill Grimes: Cause five out of six don't or maybe 10 out of 10 of their friends didn't because the odds are still with you that you're not going to get addicted. But let me just say it is. We see students all the time at the end of college. And I saw patients in my private practice who thought they were just going to smoke during college, who really couldn't give it up. So that's one.  Dr. Jill Grimes: Number two, one of the things that I always say, because I like to use humor to get points across. As I say, if you didn't grow it, you don't know what's in it. And I am not encouraging everybody to go out and start their own pot farm. What I mean by that is that if you are buying your pot where it's not in a state where it's not legal, which the state I'm in, it is not legal. So a hundred percent of pot in Texas is being, you know, is the illegally being distributed. Right. They sell pot by weight. And so one there's things. To add weight, which could be like sand or even crushed glass particles. Dr. Jill Grimes: You don't want to be inhaling that into your lungs, obviously. But worse than that is that frequently there's what we call wet weed, which means that they laced it with something else to make it seem stronger because of course their incentive is to sell more pot. So they want to have a reputation of having very powerful pot. Dr. Jill Grimes: So they think.  Dr. Jill Grimes: I think I heard  Kristina Supler: formldahyde.  Dr. Jill Grimes: That's fine, right? Yeah, exactly. Formaldehyde, which we used to pickle dead bodies. Right. You know, like think of the freshmen biology, your frog, but, we don't want that going into your brain. But LSD is the other thing, acid. So, if you think you're just smoking marijuana, but you're having a really bad trip, there could be acid in there.  Dr. Jill Grimes: But the other thing is, so the third, you only gave me three. So here's my last one that so many college students will say, I'm just, you know, I just use it to relax, to calm down my brain, to go to sleep at night, to calm my anxiety. But what we see is that people who are using pot in this manner, actually have more anxiety and, you know, the kind of increased paranoia. Dr. Jill Grimes: And I will just tell you, college mental health departments hate pot. And this is why they hate it because it actually makes things worse not better. In the short term, just like alcohol pot or alcohol is going to make you a little bit sleepy and relaxed. It doesn't improve your quality of sleep, however, and you need good restorative sleep to help with anxiety, et cetera, et cetera. Kristina Supler: It's sort of a cascading effect. It seems. Um, and actually it's interesting that you talked about what we weed and if you didn't grow it, you don't know what's in it because Susan and I have spent a lot of time on the topic lately and we've explored in a prior episode of Real Talk, the dangers of fentanyl and that being in, in street drugs pills, so on and so forth.  Susan Stone: Yeah. That Kristina just, two days ago, a really good friend of mine called me. And her son who's in college in Arizona had a very, very dear friend at Ohio state.  Kristina Supler: I don't know if it hit the national news, but at Ohio State university tragic story about a roommate coming home and, and others in the house were dead. Susan Stone: Really good, wonderful kids. And, uh, our condolences go out to those families now and for families in the future. Cause this is something that we have to, to deal with. I want to get out of there and I, gosh, we could talk to you forever, but we really have to talk about sexual assault because  Kristina Supler: that's another thing we deal with day in and day out. Susan Stone: We're trying to hit all sex and drugs. We defend both men and women involved in title nine cases. Around the country. We have a national practice and you know, it's become, it's evening out. How many women versus how many men that we actually serve as student advisors.  Kristina Supler: I know that sometimes we see a difference in the treatment of men and women in these cases on college campuses. Kristina Supler: Um, I mean, I w would you,  Susan Stone: well, I just want to point out on your, we loved your chapter on sexual assault. But it seemed very focused for females and how to prevent it. We'd like to know if you had to write the book again, or you want to add today, what would you say to the other half of our country going to college? Dr. Jill Grimes: Well, there's definitely, it is not gender unique. Both the perpetrator and the victim can be male or female, for sure. I will say in my personal clinical experience, still very heavy on female. And I have to go back and read that chapter now. Because I tried not to have it completely one-sided. Dr. Jill Grimes: I mean, I do have a bias that I see more of that, but I see it both ways and I've, I have treated, you know, a good number of male victims as well. And, and some  Susan Stone: They are growing.  Dr. Jill Grimes: Right, right. And some of their partners are female and some of their partners are male. Definitely that the thing that I would like to emphasize that might be a little, well, I'm sure it overlaps with what you guys talk about, but is the whole issue of blackout drinking. Dr. Jill Grimes: Yes and consent. So blackout drinking does not mean passing out. Okay. Passing out is being unconscious. Blackout means that you have a memory gap. And that happens when the blood alcohol content rises too quickly. What causes that? Doing shots. Okay. And so when it rises really quickly, it shuts off the message system in your brain has to do with the hippocampus. Dr. Jill Grimes: But the bottom line, what you need to know is that you're not creating memories. So the next day, your best friend's normal. No, no, for sure.  Susan Stone: You could be blacking out but like to everyone else in the room, you look fine.  Dr. Jill Grimes: That's right. You may not have slurred speech. 'cause you're it's it's it's has to do with how quickly that blood alcohol level is rising. Dr. Jill Grimes: And you may have slurred speech in 30 minutes, but you may not, when you were giving enthusiastic, ongoing verbal consent. Right. But the next day, no matter if someone was with you the whole time, and they're reminding you and say, but don't you remember this? Don't you remember that? And trying to prod your memory. Dr. Jill Grimes: Well, guess what? That doesn't work with this because you weren't making memories. So that person is never going to remember giving consent, if they gave it and they're not gonna remember not, you know, they're not gonna remember either way. They're, they're gonna know they may have physical evidence that they were physically intimate with somebody, but they don't know if they consented or not. Dr. Jill Grimes: And you can see the problems that, that creates. Brown out by the way, or some people say gray out, but the south is war refers to, as brown out is having fuzzy spotty memory loss. Um, so similar process, but just, there were a little bit of breakthrough memories in there. But you cannot tell, I want to re-emphasize exactly what you said. Dr. Jill Grimes: You can't tell by looking if somebody is going to have been blackout drunk and not had memories of the next day.  Kristina Supler: I'm glad to hear you talk about that. And I think it's great for parents out there to hear you discuss that. Because Susan and I deal with this issue on a regular basis. Cases where a person was blacked out, that there was an issue was consent properly given obtained, and, and it's just, they're they're challenging, challenging cases. Susan Stone: Um, no fast shots.  Kristina Supler: Nothing good comes from that.  Susan Stone: Right? Flavored condoms, no fast shot.  Dr. Jill Grimes: Just, you know, drink beer, wine. It's really hard. You know, you, you have to be really aggressive with beer. I mean, think back to the eighties beer bong. Your guys are too young, but Dr. Jill Grimes: I'm just saying, um, you have to work at it to get Too much alcohol too fast from other things. But shots they're tiny. They're small people chug them and then worse if you're on ADD meds. So you're on a stimulant med medication you're not, you don't even feel the first shots that you do, which makes it so much riskier. Dr. Jill Grimes: And that's part, I firmly believe that's a big part of the culture of blackout drinking is that there's no feedback from the body telling them what's going on because the shots are coming in too fast. And then if you add in the ADD medication, you you've got that further delay. So it's just very risky. Kristina Supler: Dr. Grimes, your book is so comprehensive and we really, it's interesting to read all the chapters and all the topics you cover. And of course now with the updates you had to add,  Susan Stone: And I just want to add to the readers were picking apart to talk about the chapters that we think lend themselves for discussion. Susan Stone: There's a lot of great chapters on there about, you know, just headaches and neck aches and how to deal with sore throats.  Dr. Jill Grimes: When to get an x-ray  Susan Stone: when to get an x-ray? Yeah. It's just we, for purposes of like fun thought or didn't focus on those, but parents, it's just a great how to manual.  Kristina Supler: That's right. And I mean, the, the most recent update with COVID, uh, it, it's just sort of crazy to think about now that you had to add a chapter on COVID. Kristina Supler: Yeah. How students, need to be mindful and safe of that. If you let's fast forward and you have to do another updates, a book is wildly successful and your publisher came back and said, "Add more, add more." If you read, if you added content today, what would you add now to stay current or what's the most pressing new issue that sort of snuck up, um, in your experience, dealing with students on campus. Susan Stone: Great question.  Dr. Jill Grimes: It is a great question. I will tell you that I started off with a hundred topics and it was a matter of, they made me cut it down to 50 for the first book. And then my book came out May, 2020. So it was finished being written in just right before COVID. Wow. Timing. Yeah, it was bummer to say the least. Dr. Jill Grimes: Um, but at any rate, So that was a big obvious, like we have to talk about, and I want you to talk about zoom fatigue and what, you know, practical things that you could do to help with your eyes and neck pain and all of that stuff, because it just magnified all the computer issues aside from COVID. But anyway, so that was a big obvious that came in, but I'll tell you, I have a list of 50 more topics that I'm, you know, If we do a new edition every few years, which we may do, I've already got such good seizures. Dr. Jill Grimes: Like seizures is not in the book. And seizures are actually really common and you may not have one, but your roommate, but your roommate might have one. And it's, you know, the biggest thing was seizures, just in a nutshell, since I brought it up is you're just, you're not, don't stick anything in their mouth. Dr. Jill Grimes: That's old school. We don't put things on them to keep them biting their tongue. All that does is choke them. You just trying to create a safe environment for them to finish having their seizures. So, if their head is near something that's going to hit and cause a problem, you might stick a pillow to, prevent that. Dr. Jill Grimes: But anyway, but seizures definitely needs to be in there. We see so much diabetes. the kids who come into college with type one diabetes. Most of them have pumps. They know more about diabetes than most physicians about their personal diabetes, you know?  Dr. Jill Grimes: But I definitely think there needs to be a chapter on that, both for type one and type two diabetes. Cause we're just seeing so much of that. Those are the first two that immediately jumped to my mind.  Dr. Jill Grimes: Can I have a suggestion to certainly, sorry, I just have to check Dr. Stone. No, I'm not. But I do think there needs to be talking about, um, cutting.  Kristina Supler: Oh, self-harm.  Susan Stone: Self-harm  Susan Stone: that's actually yes. And mental, um, discussion. Dr. Jill Grimes: Right?  Susan Stone: Can it get infected? Do you know. Why it's not a good coping mechanism, maybe just a thought.  Dr. Jill Grimes: Well, it's hard like that with eating disorders. I mean, that kind of goes to me, those go hand in hand. The problem, it's such a complex topic, that there were some things that I chose not to put in there. That was one, but it's a good point. Dr. Jill Grimes: Appreciate it. The other chapter that really should be in there that's not is something that I talk about, all the time. And I talk about it so much. Like I didn't think it necessarily to be in the book, but for someone who hasn't heard me talk about how to prepare your kid to navigate the healthcare system before they go to college. Susan Stone: Oh my God.  Kristina Supler: I owe you the phone calls we get from angry parents. Why won't the school will talk to me. There's FERPA release. There's HIPAA releases. Your child's 18. The doctor. It's not just gonna tell you everything going on. Oh, the yes. Yes. You  Susan Stone: know what? Dr. Grimes, I'm going to be 56. Yes. The centers. And I can't navigate the healthcare system anymore. Susan Stone: So I think. We just have to, uh, maybe put that three books from now, but you heard it to those listeners. We, Dr. Grimes has given you a little supplement in out podcast, but to all our parent listeners, who've had students heading off to college. Again, I can't give what a cute gift it would be to put a box with everything in the last chapter that you suggest that kids have in their box. Susan Stone: And I wish you could see that she's showing us through the screen, along with the book and, uh, where you're going to have to be a guest again.  Dr. Jill Grimes: I would love to come back. I was thinking we have so much we could talk about.  Kristina Supler: We could go on and on and on, but Dr. Grimes, thank you for joining us today and to our listeners. Kristina Supler: Thanks for listening to Real Talk with Susan and Kristina if you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show so that you never miss an episode and leave us a review so that other people can find the content we share here as well. You can also follow us on Instagram, just search our handle at stone Supler. And for more resources, visit us online at studentdefense.kjk.com. Kristina Supler: Thank you so much for being a part of our real talk community and we'll see you next time.

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri, a Board-Certified Pediatrician at Senders Pediatrics for over 21 years.  They discuss parenting at different stages.  The conversation includes detecting developmental issues,, the ideal course of action to manage developmental issues, and effective means to make parenting easier. Links Mentioned In the Show: Senders Pediatrics Help Me Grow (National) Help Me Grow (Ohio) KJK Student Defense Show Notes: How to spot developmental issues in your child early on (02:21) Crawling: Is it really a milestone? (04:07) When should your child be able to say their first words? (05:33) The organization which provides free infant & toddler screening for any developmental, physical issues, etc. (06:31) The best type of play for your child according to a pediatrician (07:01) Why how a child plays alone is not an indicator of a developmental issue (08:39) The age at which parents need to start observing for signs of developmental issues in their kids (10:14) Why early intervention is key to helping your child manage developmental issues (10:35) Early recognition of attention deficit disorder (ADD) and oppositional defiant disorder in children (12:16) Why spanking is a form of discipline that actually does more harm than good (15:50) The most effective way to discipline kids Dr. Bucchieri has found to be (17:11) When you know you need to seek professional help for your child (19:13) Why the parent of caregiver's perspective is essential in diagnosis (21:56) Social warning signs that can potentially be indicators of autism spectrum disorder (23:00) How to foster independence in kids (25:26) Why parents should allow their kids to be more autonomous when it comes to homework (27:48) Family meetings and their significance in intervention (29:30) Distinguishing the fine line between over-parenting and regular support for your children (31:04) Why Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri recommends teaching money management to teens before college (32:51) Sleep and its role in your child's development (33:26) Factors to consider when discerning whether or not to allow your teen to get their license (36:15) Why every parent should follow Senders Pediatrics (38:43) Susan Stone: Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Kristina Supler. We're full-time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real candid conversations. Today's topic is understanding normal child development from birth to college. From the perspective of our guest speaker, Dr. Elizabeth Bucchieri affectionately known to us as our friend Zizzy.  Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Hi, thank you so much for having me  Kristina Supler: Zizzy, we're so pleased to have you with us today. For our listeners out there, Zizzy has been a pediatrician for the last 21 years at Senders Pediatrics. She's she's one smart cookie. She went to Princeton university and then Columbia college of physicians and surgeons. Kristina Supler: She completed her residency at Johns Hopkins. She has two grown children and she's an, I have really had the pleasure of getting to nosy better through a women's retreat weekend that we participated on at, in, at a camp in New Hampshire, it was a blast and we spent time hiking and doing fun outdoor activities and got to knows Izzy better. Kristina Supler: So we're so pleased to have you join us today in your capacity as a pediatrician. Thanks for joining us.  Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Thank you for having me.  Susan Stone: I'm going to start with an age group that I haven't had the privilege of being with now that my kids are old, it's birth through toddler, the toddler years, those cute little people. Susan Stone: Can you tell us? It's so hard to know, and I hate using this word, but what is considered and I'm quote, unquote, normal childhood development from birth through the toddler years and what are signs of what might be a developmental issue?  Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Sure. So like you said, there's, you don't want to pin people too much into normal and abnormal. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: And I do think a lot of parents these days really look at these trackers and milestone sheets and get nervous sometimes if their kids aren't doing exactly what said. So given that there's a big range of normal there are some good guides. You can go on, like the CDC has a milestone guide that you can go on.  Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: But basically, babies around six weeks of age, start to do a little bit of a social smile back at you, which is very nice and some cooing. And then around six months of age, they started to include some consonants like Baba, dada, Gaga. And then their language starts to sound like a foreign language that you can't understand. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Like they say. But they're definitely telling you something and it's cute. And then you can go back and forth and say, oh really? I like that too. And then they chat back and forth with you. And then around a year, you start to get the sense that they understand you pretty well. So you could say something about their shoe and they look at their shoe or the dog, and they look at the dog. Or you say it's time to eat and they get excited. Susan Stone: So the receptive language needs to come in. Does it need to come in or does come in before the expressive language?  Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Always the receptive language comes before the expressive. And also if they're receptive language, is there. I have parents quiz their kids a little bit. If they're reading a book to the kid and they say, where's the dog ear, where's the tree. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Or, you know, on their own body, where's your head, where's your tummy, where's your toes. Then they know those words. They know head tummy, toes, even if they can't say the words. And if they know the words, then you don't have to worry so much if they're late talkers.  Susan Stone: Before we move on, I just would have a question because I've heard a controversy about this. Crawling: is it a milestone or not? Do you have to crawl before you walk? Or can you skip it and scoot, and then walk because I've been hearing that it actually is important for that child's brain development to have that cross lateral motion.  Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Yeah. I mean, I think you're right, that there is some controversy about it. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: And most kids do crawl before they walk. But there are some, I've definitely had some patients who do this thing I call the sit in, scoot and they sit and they do this funny thing with their legs and their knees and they get themselves around. A lot of times, I think it's kids who have older siblings and they don't see the older siblings crawling, but they see the older siblings walking. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: So they are, and they don't see the, so they see the older kids sitting and they see the older kid walking and they just kind of sit and zoom around. And then they are dying to stand up and walk. But I do think probably if you talk to a physical therapist, they would say what you said about it's important to have the cross lateral motion, et cetera, et cetera. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: But I, the kids I've had who sit in, scoot and stand and run seem to be doing fine. But most kids do crawl before. Yeah. So in terms of the gross motor development, they, they roll route between four and six months and sit on their own around six months. Then they get from sitting into the crawling position around seven to eight months and pulling to stand at nine months and then usually taking some independent steps between 12 months and 15 months. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: And then look out. They're running and climbing and getting into everything.  Kristina Supler: Zizzy, one last question on this discussion of, basically birth to early toddler, developmental milestones. What about speech? At what age should your child articulate their first word?  Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Right? So that's, that's usually between 12 and 15 months that they're saying, and they, they call it a w sometimes a word approximation. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: So like, they'll say 'ba' that means bottle or bubble or baby or ball. But you see them looking at the ball and they say BA, and you're like, yes, that's your ball. And it is good to fill it out as cute as this stuff is that they say try to say the real word that they're trying to say. Cause then that'll help them say the real word. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: And then usually by 15, 18 months, they start to really pile up the vocabulary. And that's right around when like 15 to 18 months, if they're not hitting those milestones, the pediatric there's usually a 15 month visit and an 18 month visit the pediatrician. If there's any concerns that the child is not first of all understanding. Cause that's the most important thing that they're, that they're not understanding language or they're not trying to communicate. Then the pediatrician would probably recommend some more evaluation.  Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: And one good first step is something called Help Me Grow, which is a free service through the county that sends a team of people, usually one person to start, but to your house and can do an assessment. And if the child needs any extra help, they can do speech therapy, physical therapy, occupational therapy. They're amazing. Susan Stone: Talk about what is normal play because, who said "Play is the work of a child"? The founder of the movement. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Yeah. I mean that, that's their job, right. Their job is to play. And I do think that's important for parents to remember. Because especially nowadays everything is, am I giving my kid enough stimulation? Are they doing enough classes? Are they in enough things? Gonna teach them their foreign language? But really they just sort of need a Tupperware and a spoon and a paper towel tube, and they'd be happy. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: You know, you remember like the example of, you know, on the holidays when the kids are unwrapping the presents. They like the wrapping paper better than the presents half the time. So a lot of open-ended play. I am a big fan of, things where the toy can be played with many different ways. My favorite present for a toddler is, is, a set of blocks that are in multiple shapes, like the squares and rectangles and the triangles and circles. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: And there is some good studies to show that for girls, if they play with more blocks and puzzles, they're going to be better at math in the end. Because it will help them with sort of geometry down the road and they can, the kids can play with it very open-ended.  Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Like my, I had two daughters and they love to build houses for their stuffed animals with the blocks. And then we'd have boys over and they'd build ramps for cars with the blocks. And, you can do a lot of different things with them, but you don't have to do what the package says. Cause they're, open-ended. Susan Stone: What's abnormal play? Yeah. What would be assigned if you look at a child, do you agree that if you see the child, let's say lining the blocks up in a line, should you be freaking out what grade?  Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Yeah. That I would say no. You know, that, that alone a lot of kids like to line stuff up. No, certainly there are some kids on the autistic spectrum that can get very, into certain, certain toys and having them in a certain way. But that, that wouldn't be like the major red flag. Usually it's a little bit more of in terms of autism that they're not understanding you. They're not wanting to communicate. There's poor eye contact. There's sort of more to it than that. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: And then they may have some like hand flapping motions, but, uh, but that can also be in the neuro-typical range too. Like the kids get excited. So it, for autism it's tricky because it's, there's a lot of things that, that can be normal or can be on the spectrum and you have to kind of put the whole package together. Kristina Supler: Zizzy, many of our clients, our students on the spectrum of all different ages, and it's not unusual for students to come to us families, I should say. And, and there's some challenges the students experiencing. And, after some more digging and evaluation and meeting with various professionals, the child is diagnosed as having, autism being on the autism spectrum.  Kristina Supler: So you've, you've mentioned some red flags or signs or behaviors for parents to look for. Is there a certain age when this issue of autism should really be on the radar of parents or a certain age when a child can really be evaluated for autism? Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Yeah, I mean, I guess I would say 15 months, you can, I'll sometimes start to get a little wondering about it. But then I usually try to give them til 18 months to pull everything together. But around 18 months, if they're not pointing at things, if they're not understanding you, if they're not, if they're not trying to communicate, then I would, I would start the evaluation at that age. Because number one, early intervention is huge. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: And, and can really help a child out. And then unfortunately there's waiting lists for a lot of these things. If you have any concerns, it's much better to get referred to a, to a development. For mean, you usually start with a speech therapist, but then if there's more concerns to get referred, we'll talk to your pediatrician, but then get referred to a developmental pediatrician. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: And that could sometimes take several months to get in. And I'd love to have that done by two. So that then if the child was eligible for some early intervention preschool there's, as you guys know, there's some finances involved in it. And so it's good to get that. I would say try to get it done, or at least started by two. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: And then by three, for sure. Cause that's a lot of times when the preschool start is at three and everything just takes times.  Susan Stone: Everything takes time. That's great advice. Well, we're going to leave the baby years and get to elementary school, which I kind of consider the golden years of having children because second graders.  Susan Stone: It was Kristina and I, this year got certified in positive discipline. Because frankly we wanted to be able to talk to our clients because we have a lot of meltdowns from students that we represent because they're under so much pressure. And we kind of want to focus early on what is considered normal acting out though versus early signs of ADD or oppositional defiant disorder.  Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Well, what I would say is in those, in that three to five year age group, There, they talk about like two-year-olds and temper tantrums, you know, you sort of expect some temper tantrums from two year olds and even three-year-olds are pretty, you may have heard of the term threenager. So two year olds, they're not always able to communicate so well, but they do have their needs. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: And often if they're hungry and tired, they just completely fall on the ground crying. And one of your guests, like, I can't remember. I think it was the the positive episode on positive discipline. They talked about how the, some of the main reasons why children's misbehave or being hungry and tired. And I really do believe that's the case.  Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: So I am a big fan of getting them enough sleep and then trying to make sure they're eating food with protein and fat. Because if they just eat their carbs, which they love. And the crackers and the noodles.  Susan Stone: I love goldfish  Kristina Supler: is smiling because you're saying the main reason for misbehavior among children is being hungry and tired. Kristina Supler: And I think the same is probably true for adults as well. Of course, excluding present company.  Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Yeah, of course. I remember. I remember one time literally. Yelling full volume yelling at my daughter. And I said, "You're acting like a child." Kristina Supler: No, mom, you are. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: She actually was a child. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: I  Susan Stone: see the signs of ADD and ODD. Because we deal with those issues and when they become difficult issues.  Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Sure. Yeah. Technically speaking, you're not even supposed to diagnose ADD until six years old. Just from the criteria, but there definitely are families where the one parent has it, a sibling has it. And the kid is just running around the room, just tearing the place up. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Where you kind of know they're going down that path. But typically I don't recommend diagnosing until six. But occupational therapy is actually the first step in helping children with ADHD bef you know, before you get, even get into medication. So I would definitely refer a kid who's in the, the three to five range who can not sit still and having a hard time paying attention to occupational therapy as a first step, towards either helping them mature and helping them, get things together. Or if not a first step in kind of treatment. And then oppositional defiant disorder is probably a little out of my realm of diagnosis. Kristina Supler: What about this hypothetical? You have a family, uh, with a child who's five or six. You, the family doesn't go to restaurants because the child just restaurants, it's like sensory overload. For whatever reason, the child can't handle the restaurant. Struggled to have play dates. The child just doesn't listen. Kristina Supler: Boundaries. Parents just struggled to have boundaries and in parents sort of get to that breaking point where, oh my gosh, I'm at my wit's end. You know, the mother or father, what do I do? My child doesn't listen. I have to make my child listen. I'm going to spank them. Cause that's the only thing my child responds to. Kristina Supler: What is your in of course, recognize that spanking is controversial. I mean, do you have thoughts on that for discipline?  Susan Stone: My parents deny it, but I was spanked. They'll deny it, guys..  Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Although, luckily, luckily I do feel like that doesn't come up that much anymore. I do feel like people have just kind of started to realize that spanking just doesn't work. Because then the children will just start hitting either you or their siblings. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: But I just don't feel like in the last 10 years that has really come up that much, or maybe people are just not admitting it. But I feel like, I feel like that message has kind of gotten to people that's that hitting a child doesn't in the end make anything better besides the short term, you know, they'll be scared. Susan Stone: Time Outs don't work either. I got to tell you, they did not today when everybody has such a great bedroom or just. It never worked on my kids time out.  Susan Stone: Or they stood on the stairs. Okay. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: I tried to do it a little bit, like for the young kids, the kids that are, pre-verbal like, kind of in the one to two year range where they're hitting. I just try to do timeouts, usually just for hitting and biting. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: The two big baddies, I call it like a sports analogy, like the flagrant foul, if they really are doing something. Cause you know, there's kind of like the, the noodling and the poking and the pestering. But like if they walk up to the brother and just whack them on the head, that has to be addressed. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: And I try to tell people that you just pick up the child. You say don't use the word. No, because they love to say no. And you just say. You're hitting hurts. Your biting hurts. You're having a timeout. You hold them in your lap, facing out, close your eyes and count just to have read many seconds they are old. You know, 60 seconds for a year, 120 for two years. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: And that's it. And then it's done. There's no lecture. There's no sermon. There's no step. There's no chasing them. There's no sending them to the room. It's that quick.  Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: And if you can kind of stick with that for a couple of weeks and have all the caregivers do it, which is tough, the babysitter, the grandparents, then they usually don't they, then they usually phase out that, that behavior.  Kristina Supler: Well, we, we so often, you know, you hear this idea of like, it, it, it all starts at home. And it's so true. There's of course exceptions and, and unique challenges and circumstances that influence child development. But more often than not, if you spank, you might get a kid who hits. You yell at your kids, you're going to, you know, foster that behavior and your child's gonna yell at others.  Kristina Supler: And so I think it's, it's really good for parents to think about that. Of how their behavior, you know, is a model for, for children and of course we all have room improvement. Susan Stone: Right. I want to, I want to challenge you. I think that's all well and good. But I have Dean, especially in my special education practice, a real uptick and kids who just can't calm down. We have been fighting for placements that were never thought of such as wilderness therapy never thought of in the elementary school ages. Susan Stone: I think since COVID, the behaviors are getting much worse. I think parents are on edge. And I think all parents are doing what they can do. And I think in the past that might've been right, Kristina. But I'm going to challenge both of you on that. What do you do when you have a really out of control kid and you yourself are on your last piece of gas in your tank? Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Right. Well, that was even where Kristina started out, you know, the child who can't go to the restaurant, can't do play dates, having a hard time. I mean, that's definitely outside the normal realm. And then you, I think you really do need help, you know, and I usually have people start with getting a pediatric psychologist involved. Sometimes even just to work with the parent and then coach the parent through how to manage things or what is, you know, a lot of times children with anxiety show up as being oppositional. You know, they're, they're stubborn. Beyond belief, but it turns out it's stemming from anxiety and they're so afraid or frightened that they just don't want to do whatever it is. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: So, so if, if you are feeling that you're at the end of your rope, it's time to call out for help. So check with your pediatrician. Try to get in with the child psychologist to help. And then sometimes they do need, a special education situation, like pep, like the positive education program for we've had, I've had some patients there where the children couldn't handle themselves in a regular school setting and they went into something like that. And then did and did really well. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: But right. I mean, there certainly are some kids who are not managing with the typical advice. And so if, if the typical advice isn't working that is often a sign that maybe there is something more going on now.  Susan Stone: I think I want to do a shout out to our readers. It, I love what you said, Zizzy. If you feel that normal intervention is not working. Susan Stone: Don't blame yourself. Get help. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Right. Right. Cause probably there's something more going on with that kid. When the regular advice, I did have one parent and she tries every last thing and the kid was so bright that it took a while to diagnose. At first they thought it was anxiety. Then they thought it was ADHD, but then it turned out it was autism as well. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: But the child is so bright that he kind of. Kind of tricked to everybody.  Kristina Supler: It seems so often it's really important for parents to listen to their gut instincts. And when being told, you know, oh, your child is tired, moody, whatever. There's, there's nothing wrong. Cause. She gets great grades. He's thriving on the standardized testing. But you feel like something is not right. Kristina Supler: Something is not right. It just, in our experience, it's so essential for parents to, to hold onto their gut instinct and keep digging and not settle, or rest, even when there's schools or maybe even a pediatrician and people saying, no, it's fine. It's fine. You're, you're a hypersensitive helicopter parents. But you know, those parenting instincts often serve as well. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Right. I, I, a hundred percent agree with that. My best teacher in residency told me that, you can do all the blood tests and MRIs and everything, but basically listen to the parent. Because if the parent has a concern for the most part, your job is to really dig into that concern and figure out what's going on. Because no parent really wants there to be a problem with their kid. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: So if they're saying that they're worried, usually there's something to it now. I mean, certainly there can be exceptions and there can be some people that worry about things that are really fine and reassurance. There's a, there's a rule for reassurance, but I do agree. Most of the time really do have a great sense of their own kid. Susan Stone: So what is the, I have a really interesting question that we all sort of led down this path. And then with those high functioning, autistic children, they're verbal early. They can really trick the system and they need early intervention. What would be the early signs to prepare us and that more high functioning level. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: So that's, that's true. I mean, they're T they're tricky. That, that may be a little bit past me, but there, I think it's, I think it's, again, maybe the social piece. Are they interacting with peers? Are they, are they doing reciprocal play? Cause the kids go from the parallel play around two to between three and five they do the, the communal play where they're pretending to cook together or are they're pretending to be on a boat and on a trip. And, and they're having to communicate with each other in order to play.  Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: And so if the kid really can't do that and some kids on the spectrum want to do things their own way with their own script, and they only want to talk about a certain toy or movie or something like that, but won't listen to what the other kid wants to do. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: So I guess, especially with they're really verbal kid, but they're just not listening to the other kid. They're not taking the other kids' ideas and going with it. That I think that could be one of the big red flags for the very intelligent, very verbal kid who turns out to be on the spectrum. Okay.  Susan Stone: So Kristina, why don't you, uh, launch our next topic.  Kristina Supler: No pun intended. So let's fast forward. Now we we've talked about the early years. Let's move down the line and talk about teenagers. Okay. So students, perhaps college kids. Zizzy, I believe you've indicated that, you listened to our episode with Dr. Mark McConville author of "Failure to Launch" who is such a pleasure to have on as a guest. And he's just so respected and knowledgeable and offered such good wisdom and insight and in guidance.  Kristina Supler: For those parents sort of wrestling with the issue of how to foster independence and responsibility and they're high school students, they're teens. So that come time to head off to college in the fall. Kristina Supler: It's not a total disaster where the kids sleeping in late; spending too much money partying and all of a sudden the straight A student is getting F's. So what can parents do? What tips or, or strategies could you offer to help parents, began to foster those, important skills of independence and responsibility very early on to avoid the failure to launch situation. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: And I did think that was a great episode. I highly recommend it for your listeners who haven't heard it. One thing that I sort of wish I had started a little earlier with my kids. So I'll say it for everybody else, but it is probably a good idea to start chores early on, like in the three to five-year-old range. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: And it doesn't have three, doesn't have to be something huge, but it could be, you know, helping clean up toys, helping sort the laundry, set the table, they love to clean. So giving them a rag and clean. Yeah. And the Swiffers, you know, and the little even they make these funny little vacuum cleaners that kids can run that actually do pick up dirt and they love. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: So they like that. And then in elementary school they can help take care of animals. They can help with the garbage, they can clean bathrooms. And then like in Montessori, the kids all make their own snack. And they can with a knife that you get from takeout, like a plastic knife, they can cut cucumbers and they can help make the salad. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: They do like to help with meal prep. And then I have a lot of patients whose kids pack their lunch for school. And they have a little algorithm. You know, you need a protein, you need a grain, you need a fruit and veggie. And they have them kind of set up in the fridge and little zones in the fridge. And the kids pack their lunch and they fill each little, you know, section of their lunch. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: And they're, so they're starting with good nutrition and they're starting with meal meal responsibility too. And then the  Kristina Supler: whole notion of just the simple task of pet, well, simple for an adult packing, a lunch involving school-aged child in that there's so many lessons in there. Executive function, planning, nutrition, all of that, just personal responsibility. Kristina Supler: That's a really great tip for our listeners.  Susan Stone: I've always had my children help with Friday night dinner.  Kristina Supler: And that's another example. .  Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Right. Like helping with cooking so that then when they get, when they get older, they can, be cooking some for themselves.  Susan Stone: My daughter, when she went to college was shocked to learn that she was the only person who really could not only cook, but she's an excellent cook. Susan Stone: And I take for granted the time I spend with my children, teaching them to be good cooks.  Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Yeah, so that's a good one. And then I'm, I'm also a huge advocate of parents getting out of the homework business. I really feel like starting in middle school, it should be, it should be between the child and the teacher, and it is not your job to know what the homework is and to check the homework and all of that and let the teacher do it and let the teacher know what's happening before they get to high school. Because the grades in middle school are so important. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: So if they mess up a few things, it's okay. And, but then they're in charge of their own homework. Now I know it's easier said than done, and it's obviously easier with the more motivated kid. And if your kid isn't that motivated, you may have to be involved a little bit. But I would try to take some step back steps back in middle school with regard to homework. Susan Stone: I have questions on that. Susan Stone: One is though for my younger child. Now, if they go to school, There's an app and they alert you and it's like, I turned it off. I don't want to know my daughter's not turning in her homework. I agree. But Kristina and I work with a lot of students and sometimes we see it in adults who have serious executive function issues. Susan Stone: Right. So what is normal? I forgot my homework. The dog ate my homework. And allowing them to have consequences versus seeing a child that might need some good intervention in their executive function skills. Now I will say, and I want to know if you agree with this again, it's not good to get involved because you want the teachers to see it and get the help and tease it out. Susan Stone: But how do we know the difference between it just being, oh, this is so boring versus a, I just can't get organized.  Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Yeah. I mean, I'm a huge fan of the family meeting. Which I think, I think one of your guests talk about that too.  Kristina Supler: That's a big, positive discipline, right? Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Right. So the family meeting is a great one, and I was just reviewing some of the recommendations for that. And then this one, I thing I read said, you know, the agenda should start with compliments which is great. Cause then everyone's looking all week for things that other people did well, that they could, list as their compliment and then challenges. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: And then that's where you try to brainstorm some solutions. And that's where maybe this executive functioning thing could come in. So if there'd been challenges with homework, not getting turned in or the books from school not making it home from school or whatever that could be addressed at the meeting and talk about strategies to do better. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: But then if those methods are putting up something on the whiteboard in the kitchen, or, you know, Saying, would you like me to check that your backpack is loaded in at the night? You know, kind of coming up with some dual strategies that the kids involved with the parents involved with. If those things aren't working, then I do think you need to get the school involved, the school counselor involved. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: To see if they feel like the child needs some more executive functioning support at school at, or even is there an ADHD element going on that needs further diagnosis? So I am a big fan of that.  Kristina Supler: It might be a tricky question, but what's the difference between over-parenting in your mind versus normal support for your child?  Susan Stone: Great question. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Yeah. Well, and that kind of gets back to this failure to launch things. So let me actually go back to the failure to launch, and then we'll get back into that. So after the getting out of the homework business for high schoolers, I do think, like we said, there, they should be in charge of their, their work. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: And then I do think considering a paid job for your high schooler is not a bad idea. Because paid work does teach a ton of responsibility and getting there on time. And doing some maybe menial tasks that you don't really like to do, but you do them anyway. And then I did clothing allowance with my kids and I thought it was fantastic. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: So they got a certain amount of money every quarter that was to be spent on clothes. And, and we had it all worked out. Like if I was going to buy like the winter coats and the boots or whatever, but this was just for regular clothes. And they got that amount of money and they each had a bank account with a debit card and I put the money in there and then every time they went to the store or nowadays I'm sure kids are just buying it online, they could buy it or not. But they wouldn't get more money until the next quarter. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: And I think that's a great way to teach them, like when their kids go to college a lot of kids overspend. And then they don't know cause they can door dash stuff, they can take an Uber, they have this and they have that. So like it's kind of a nice way to sort of start teaching them if there is a set amount of money and you can decide how you want to spend it, but there's not going to be any more for three months. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Or you get your job and you make more money and you can spend it that way. So I do think some money management, a lot of my, one of my daughters college freshmen friends had no clue about money and the parents were so mad because they were asking for more money all the time. That like, what all this? Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: So I do think doing some money management in high school is a good idea before they get to, before they get to college.  Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: But then back to your other question about the helicopter parent versus the supportive parent, I mean, obviously that's sort of a style point and there are some cultural differences. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: But I guess I would say, you'd like the kid to have some, just some motivation on their own, that they're interested in something and they want to do it. And then maybe your job as the parent is to sort of provide, a good place to do your work.  Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Or, you know, maybe we didn't talk about sleep, but I'm a huge sleep advocate. And I do think, I think parents should be pretty involved in how, and when the kid goes to bed. Because if they don't get enough sleep, then everything falls apart. And I mean, the age, the amount of sleep children are supposed to get is, is much more than most kids are getting. And adults. Exactly. And I was reading you probably, you guys probably know Lisa DeMar, she's an amazing local psychologist. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: And she wrote a really neat article on sleep. And, for the kind of the middle schoolers, she wants them all to get 10 hours of sleep and said, You have to get your homework done. You need to do 30 minutes of chores and you need 10 hours of sleep. And then if you can, if you have time for other activities, you can fit them in around that. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: But you know, the sleep is sort of the non-negotiable. So I think parents do need to be, and nowadays with teenagers, I get a lot of teenager checkups and I asked them what time they go to the bed? And the mother said, well, I don't know, because I go to bed at 10 and I don't know what they're doing after 10. Susan Stone: I have to tell you. That is so true when your kids are little, you have a tuck-in routine, but I will say good night and sort of check in on my high schooler. But I don't know what she's doing. I'm hoping she's going to sleep. But I'm going to be more mindful of this.  Susan Stone: I just want to ask for a recent observation that I find so interesting. When I was 16 and Kristina chime in getting your license was like the most important thing you could do. But I'm noticing from my friends and their kids and this generation driving is not a big deal and they don't care if they drive. They're happy to Uber.  Kristina Supler: I agree at growing up and when I was a teen, it was unthinkable that you wouldn't get your license the minute you possibly could. Kristina Supler: And it is this really interesting shift now, uh, we're seeing a lot of teens who just don't think it's necessary because friends around them or you have Uber or driving is just too stressful. Don't want it. Don't need it. Have you seen that in your medical practice or do you know what's, what's fueling this? Kristina Supler: Or why  Susan Stone: does, and should you just say no, you're getting your license. This is not a choice because I am not your chauffeur.  Kristina Supler: Or do you have to really listen to what your child's expressing. I think the driving one, great question Susan, and that's a tough issue because you want to foster independence, but yet, you know, it's like, well, if my kid doesn't want to drive, maybe I have I'm in what's going on. Kristina Supler: And I think that's a complicated issue for parents. Well,  Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Yeah, it's pretty dark for us, Zizzy. The whole driving issue. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: It is funny because I do think it does sort of depend on girl, boy. I mean, I tend to see that the girls are getting their licenses on time. Cause they're just a little at that age, a little more organized. You know, you have to do the thing and take the test and they're just, and they just seem to be a little, social and they want to get out and about. And so I tend to see the girls getting their licenses pretty close to 16 and the boys not being as concerned because, you know, they're there, they can play their video games with their friends, from their couch and they don't need to get over there. Susan Stone: That's so true. Where are they going? They're staying home.  Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: In terms of, from a parent's perspective, if you need them to drive cause they have other, you have other kids or you have other opportunities, then I think got like a job that you could say, look, you're able to get your license. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: So it would really make life easier. If you decide not to do it, then you're on your own to find your way to where your practice or wherever you're going. You know, I think you can kind of try to put it on them a little bit, but I mean, honestly, teenagers are not the best drivers. So for me waiting a little longer, a little more mature, a little more friend to low, that's fine with me, a kid who doesn't really want to drive. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: It doesn't want to drive. I wouldn't push it because it's distressed, they can get distracted and they can, it's a huge responsibility driving a car. And so I'd really want them to be motivated and know, you know, that it's a big responsibility. They need to take it very seriously. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: I do. I do tell kids around this time, each year, you know, sadly there's often a car load of teenage boys that gets into a very serious possibly even fatal accident. And usually, usually they're not drinking. They're usually just goofing around. Just being funny, silly, goofy people, and it ends very badly. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: So I want them all paying attention while they're driving. And if they're not into it, I'd rather them in an Uber.  Susan Stone: Yeah. You know, that's really interesting. Well, Zizzy, I think we're going to have to invite you back. Not even get halfway through what we wanted to talk to you back about.  Susan Stone: Wow. There's just so much to us stuff to talk to the pediatrician about. I think you need your own podcast. Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: Yeah. I will just put in one plug for my boss. I work for a Senders Pediatrics. And my boss is Shelly Senders. Our website is amazing and he writes, uh, it used to be weekly, but now it's a twice monthly newsletter that has incredible topics. Like two weeks ago, he had tick-tock brain on there and how to get more sleep.  Dr. Zizzy Bucchieri: And this, this week's has some good information on what's going on with COVID. So if anyone has more general pediatric questions, take look at our website. But it was great talking with you ladies.  Susan Stone: We got to get together soon. Kristina Supler: We're so pleased. You're able to join us today and our listeners check out Senders Pediatrics. Thanks to everyone for listening to Real Talk with Susan and Kristina. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show so that you never miss an episode. And leave us a review so that other people couldn't find the content we share as well. Kristina Supler: You can follow us on Instagram, just search our handle at Stone Supler and for more resources, visit us online at studentdefense.Kjk.com. Thank you so much for being a part of our Real Talk community and we will see you next time.

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Dr. Edward F. Dragan, the founder and lead expert witness of School Liability Expert Group.  They discuss the coverage of his role as a lead expert witness in educational, school, and administrative liability.  The conversation includes the best method to help prevent Title XI issues, the difference between bullying and regular student conflict, and the hard truth about individualized education programs. Links: School Liability Expert Group (Website) Show Notes: How one phone call became the catalyst to Dr. Dragan's School Liability Expert Group (02:00) What it means to be an expert witness covering education, administration and supervision (04:44)  Why one annual training is not enough to prevent Title IX issues in schools (07:25) How to distinguish bullying and regular student conflict (12:00) How Dr. Dragan and his wife gracefully dealt with a first-hand experience of student conflict (13:20) What school districts are not telling you about individualized education programs and what parents need to do (16:05)  Transcript: Susan Stone: Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Kristina Supler. We're full-time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real candid conversations. Today's guest is Dr. Edward Dragan, founder and lead expert witness of School Liability Expert Group. That's a mouthful. Dr. Dragan consults and works as an expert in cases involving student injuries. Welcome.  Dr. Dragan: Thank you. I appreciate the time that you're giving me, Susan and Kristina. Thank you very much.  Kristina Supler: Thank you for joining us as a guest today. We're so pleased to have you. Dr. Dragan, can you tell us about the School Liability Expert Group? Kristina Supler: What exactly does this business do?  Dr. Dragan: Sure. School Liability Expert Group started in, uh, 1993, actually. And I was working before that in the State Department of Education in New Jersey. And I was also the director of the department of special services in a local school district in New Jersey. Dr. Dragan: And I looked at what I was doing and I, I decided that I couldn't. Put together all of my background and expertise as a school administrator or a superintendent. And I had just received my doctoral degree in education administration and supervision. So I took a little time off and I developed my firm and got started by providing consultation directly to boards of education on issues involving the structure of their departments of special education. Dr. Dragan: I did that at first. And then I was sitting at my desk one day and an attorney calls me and he said, "Hey, Dr. Dragon, would you be interested in providing expert witness services for a case I'm working on?"  Dr. Dragan: And I really didn't know actually what an expert witness was at that point. And I said, well, tell me more about it. Dr. Dragan: I'd like to hear what you have to say happened to be a special education case. And this was one in New Jersey that went before the administrative law, judge. I researched the case. I reviewed it and I went to testify. Then I thought to myself, Hmm, I really like this. This is kind of interesting because it's a combination of my educational background, my background in teaching and administration.  Dr. Dragan: So I thought, wow, this is something I really want to develop. And I went back to school and I got a law degree from a University of New Hampshire, and that was a specialty law degree in education administration. So that's really where it started. I had a small desk in a very small house in Lambertville New Jersey. Susan Stone: Beautiful area. Very charming.  Dr. Dragan: Love it. Here.  Susan Stone: Love Lambert bill. It's been a long time.  Kristina Supler: I have to add I'm I'm sensing quite a bit of synergy between Dr. Dragan and Susan, all backgrounds.  Susan Stone: This is crazy our parallels. Because my practice, I started out as just a general litigator. And then I have always had a love of special education work. Susan Stone: Started doing that a couple of days a week while I was an associate at a firm and then met Kristina because a lot of my students were getting in trouble in a criminal area and Christine has got a criminal background. And then we branched out into title nine and sexual assault and sexual harassment, and our practice continues to evolve. Susan Stone: So you are in good company because it seems like we have a lot of parallels. I didn't know about that law degree with that educational concentration. I'm going to look that up. But let's start with our first question of the day. And you've really covered a lot of what you do serving as an expert witness. Susan Stone: Can you tell us about the different areas that you serve as an expert witness?  Dr. Dragan: Sure. Overall the, the main area is education, administration and supervision. So all of the sub categories come under that main umbrella heading. So under education, administration and supervision we deal with preschool issues where a, in many cases that we've had, unfortunately where three year olds were sexually abused by their caretakers or sexually abused by volunteers who were in the classroom with three and four year olds. So it's it spans from preschool and daycare all the way through college and university. And the college and university cases that we deal with have to do also with Title IX issues. Dr. Dragan: I mean, we, we've got several cases of alleged rape on college campuses. So what we do in those cases is we, we look at the policies and the procedures of organizations and institutions from preschool through college and university. Look at the policies and procedures first. We assess the uh, the standard of care in the field and then review documents and and other information that is sent to us from our client attorneys. Dr. Dragan: T to determine whether or not the school or agency or institution met the professional standard of care or not. So that, that's basically what we focus on.  Kristina Supler: That's really interesting that you brought up Title IX because Susan and I regularly serve as student advisors for complainants and respondents and title IX cases across the country. Kristina Supler: We, we actually do a lot of work with college students, of course, but high school students as well, because Title IX has such broad application now. And you mentioned working with schools on policies, and I believe you also do training for school administrators on extra issues like sexual abuse and harassment. Can you just tell us a little bit about what, what is proper training look like for school administrators to prevent sexual abuse and particularly abusive students with disabilities our most vulnerable students,  Dr. Dragan: right? Dr. Dragan: Right. Well, one of the things that I have found out is that once a year at the beginning of the year training is never enough. And many of the schools that we deal with say to us when we ask about their training. Yeah, we, we got our staff together and the beginning of the school year. We spent an hour going through our policies and we told the staff, well, you're not supposed to have any kind of interaction that could be determined as sexual behavior between yourself and students. And so that's not enough. That's, that's clearly not enough because in those situations, in those cases that we deal with schools did that and there were still issues.  Susan Stone: So what's the answer?  Dr. Dragan: Well, I'm not sure if we can prevent absolutely interactions that may be appropriate inappropriate rather between students and, and staff. Dr. Dragan: One, one of the things that, that I know for sure is that students and, and, uh, staff keep these things a secret. And they're, they're not going to be going out and telling other staff members or or other students that they're in a sexual relationship. That's inappropriate. So it is kept a secret. And however, many of the cases that we have worked on involved, a, a student who bragged to a fellow student, Hey, I'm having sex with the science teacher. Dr. Dragan: And it was that fellow student who told someone else and reported it. And then it was investigated and found that the school wasn't supervising that science teacher, appropriately; student was taken out of class and taken to the science room and abused. So yeah, I don't think we can absolutely prevent, but schools can Can do a lot more to appropriately train on a regular basis to inform  Kristina Supler: More frequent training. It sounds like that's key  Dr. Dragan: Frequent training and let staff and students know what to look for. What are the signs of?  Susan Stone: We have another parallel because we actually also handled representing students against professors and defending professors accused because we see both situations. We see where students, especially in college level, the boundaries are violated and it results in sexual harassment and or discrimination. Susan Stone: And we see a rise in those professors and faculty getting falsely accused. And I would add a third category that gray area with does it rise to discrimination or harassment? Maybe not. Was there unprofessional behavior possibly, and those grays are really difficult to wrestle with, but Christina, can you I want to poke at all, some post pandemic bullying case. Susan Stone: Um,  Kristina Supler: yeah, I, you know, Dr. Dragon, Susan and I post pandemic, we have seen such a significant rise in cyber bullying. And we, we regularly defend students, accused of bullying. And I noticed, uh, on your, on your website, you had written a blog about how to distinguish between bullying versus student conflict in general. Because after all we know that that not every argument between students rises to the level of bullying and bullying is such a, a phrase that's used all over today in so many different contexts. Kristina Supler: And I think it's sometimes hard for parents to know what's the difference. So what would you say or what are some, some key points for parents to keep in mind and how to tell the difference and conduct  Susan Stone: Dr. Dragon? I want to challenge. 'cause I know with our parents, they, they like it when we give it to them neat. And in a box. So if you could provide a few short sentences to say, give them the barometer: bullying or just conflict or mean behavior.  Dr. Dragan: Yeah. Okay. Conflict or mean behavior typically is something that may occur one time between two students. However, if, if that behavior continues on an extended basis, then it can rise to the level of bullying. Dr. Dragan: So bullying hurts a student on a regular basis. It is something that predominantly is done by one or two students, but it's continual on a regular basis. So, that's how I would distinguish the two. Conflict might. Ah, I want to sit at that table, but no, I don't want you to sit here at the, at the cafeteria table. Dr. Dragan: So that's, that may be conflict. Might never happen again.  Susan Stone: What about excluding a child I'm talking from a birthday party or a bar or bat mitzvah?  Dr. Dragan: Oh that, yeah. That's a horrible thing. And  Kristina Supler: Every parents had to deal with the crying child and saying, oh no people like you.  Dr. Dragan: So I have a personal experience with that. Dr. Dragan: Do share. Yes.  Susan Stone: To all our listeners, we're going to get personal with Dr. Dragon.  Dr. Dragan: So, my wife and I adopted three biracial children in a all white community in New Jersey. Uh, I won't go into the politics, but you could probably guess the politics once I described this. My daughter was in first grade. There was a birthday party of one of the children in the first grade class. Everybody received an invitation except my daughter. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And she was so hurtful. She was the only dark skin trials and in the class and she came home and she said Jody is having a birthday, but I wasn't invited. I really want to go to her birthday. Dr. Dragan: And we realized right away what it was. So my wife actually to resolve the issue and to try to teach the parent something positive called the parent right away and said, Hey you know, Tina would really love to have Jody come to visit us and spend some time at our house. The birthday party was going to be in a week from then. Dr. Dragan: So, Jody's mom was hesitant. But she was put on the spot because my wife invited Jodie to come to the house. So parent brought Jodie over. And after that, Jodie had a good time with my daughter Tina at the house, and then she was invited to the party. Dr. Dragan: So one of the things that we learned from that, and I hope that the parent learned is that there's so much more to learn about people. And so she, she learned a lesson from that as well. And now she has three of her own children and is a terrific mom.  Kristina Supler: Oh, that's great. That's great. I'd like to delve a little deeper on the issue. Kristina Supler: Your work regarding students with disabilities. Uh, Susan and I do a lot at the beginning. Susan mentioned her special education practice, and we still do a lot of work advocating for students with disabilities who are receiving various types of special education services. Can you tell us, I mean, cause we often are called by parents who are just distraught because their child hasn't been serviced. The child perhaps has suffered injuries or even experienced restraint and seclusion at school. So have you done work in this type of area? What can you share with us?  Dr. Dragan: My firm has done a lot of work in that area. Dr. Dragan: And I in particular have done a lot because of my background as a teacher, a special education and director of special ed and all that. The, the main thing that parents need to understand is that the individualized education program, the IEP for their child is the contract between the school and the parents, excuse me, that we'll stand up in any kind of an administrative hearing. A lot of times I find that school districts are not forthcoming with parents. Dr. Dragan: They don't let the parents know that the individuals with disability education act is a, a dual advocacy act. They don't tell the parents that the school district is supposed to inform the parents that if they don't agree with what the school is proposing to put into the IEP, that the parents can contest that. Susan Stone: Well, we always say nothing's better than an IEE more of a private assessment at the public expense where we can challenge those services.  Dr. Dragan: Absolutely. And that's again, uh, something that I advised parents that if, if you don't agree with the assessment and evaluation of the school personnel, you really need to go outside in order to get an evaluation. Susan Stone: We agree. We could talk to you forever, Dr. Dragan. There are so many different aspects of your business but it's been a pleasure for our listeners out there. We are at the end of our show and we do appreciate you coming on. Susan Stone: So Christina, why don't you do our famous wrap up?  Kristina Supler: Thank you again for joining us, Dr. Dragon, it was such a pleasure and thank you to our listeners. We appreciate you listening to Real Talk with Susan and Kristina. Kristina Supler: If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show so you never miss an episode and leave us a review so that other people can find the content that we share here. You can also follow us on Instagram. Just search our handle at Stone Supler and for more resources, visit us on. Student defense.kjk.com. Kristina Supler: Thank you so much for being a part of our Real Talk community. And we'll see you next time.  Dr. Dragan: Thank you, Susan and Kristina. 

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Greg Kelley, a pioneer in the field of digital forensics, with over 2 decades of experience and the founder of Vestige Digital Investigations.  They discuss digital evidence and its relevance to legal cases.  The conversation includes what digital forensics is, what type of digital activity can be tracked on computers and social media, and if a child gets involved in a legal case what parents should do with their child's digital devices. Links:  https://www.vestigeltd.com/ Show Notes: What does forensics involve in the digital age? (02:49) The secrets that digital forensics can reveal (05:16) Why your digital activity can't lie (07:41) Why nothing on social media is actually private (09:29) Newsflash: Snapchat photos almost ALWAYS leave a trace (11:48) Can deleted files actually be recovered? (13:55) How deleting files can actually cause more harm than good (16:57) Why do parents need to confiscate their children's devices when their kids get in trouble (17:37) Monitoring your children's devices with Google and Apple (19:25) Transcript: Susan Stone: Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan and Kristina. And in case my listeners out there, missed CSI last night, we're going to bring real life CSI to you all through our special guest, Greg Kelley from Vestige and Greg is going to talk about computer evidence and how it relates to cases. Susan Stone: Kristina, why don't you introduce our colleague, Greg?  Kristina Supler: Sure. So Greg, thank you so much for joining us. Greg is a founder of Vestige Digital Investigations, and Greg's been working in the digital forensics field since 2000 or so. And really for the past 15 years, he's helped vestige become one of the leaders in the area of comprehensive digital forensic investigations. Greg and other employees at Vestige work on criminal cases and civil cases, and really cases in courts that deal with a variety of issues from cyber intrusion, intellectual property, theft fraud, other sorts of illegal online activities. Greg testifies in court, both in the state of Ohio as well as federal courts. Kristina Supler: And we are pleased you're here today, Greg. Thank you.  Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: Thank you for having me. And, you know, with your, your count on CSI as a, as a side note, my business partner actually consulted for a while on the I think it was the CSI cyber series that was on. It's kind of Stephanie brought that up. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: Yeah. He hooked up with a couple of directors. I forgot how it was, but. Yeah, he's got a couple of posters and t-shirts in his office. He's, he's pretty proud of that. So  Susan Stone: very cool. That's really cool. And the real, the reason Greg, we wanted you to talk to families because as you know, Kristina and I are dedicated to representing students, is that almost every case, if not every case has a component of what is or is not on a cell phone or a laptop or some device.  Susan Stone: And what do we need to find from the other side for a defense? What do we need to provide? What do we not want to give? What's here? What's there? What's erased? What's deleted? And it's confusing. And every day, Kristina and I are learning about a new software, a new chat room, a new social media app. And it's hard to keep up with it. And so we're hoping you can boil down these fancy, scary words like forensics and computer and cybercrime and make it meaningful.  Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: Yeah, we'll give that a try. So let let's talk about forensics. The way I like to describe it, um, forensics to someone in general is, we're looking at, a computer, a cell phone. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: Let's call them a digital device. Something that has digital information on it and we're examining it. We're looking at it. We're pulling messages from it and pictures and web history. We're doing all of that in such a way that's going to be admissible in court. So that means that we can do, we can take the same device. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: Performing the same type of search and analysis multiple times, and we get the same results over and over. And likewise too, we can explain it to someone else who's technical like us, and they can repeat the same processes and get the same results as well at the end of the day. Now their opinion on what they found versus what we found may differ. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: And that's, that's an opinion, but at least at the end of the day they can find the same messages, the same, artifacts is another word that I'm sure I tell you guys a lot about. You can find the same artifacts as well. And an artifact so as not to, get too technical here is, is really something that's left over after an action is performed. So really simply, your web history, everybody knows about web history on your computer. You go to websites, you look at pictures, you read articles and so on, and everybody knows that web history is stored on your computer. Well, that history is an artifact. It's something that's left behind after you performed an action. Your action was you went to a website. You read an article. Well, part of that website was cached on your computer. That history was cached and that's the artifact. So, so that's what we're doing. We're examining devices and, helping people understand what happened.  Susan Stone: So that's why everyone out there, my computer knows that I like to shop. Is that right?  Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: That would be why. That would be what Google knows you like to shop. Apple knows you like to shop. By if you're on Facebook, Facebook, like know that you like to shop. Everybody knows you like to shop. So  Susan Stone: Everybody knows. Kristina Supler: Let me ask you actually on that. And that's a good segue. Susan loves to shop and she's getting blasted with these ads in her Facebook feed and she goes on Google and they're ads on banner ads and what nots. Tell us what's what type of information can be uncovered. What sorts of artifacts, I guess, to use the phrase you referenced or the term? Kristina Supler: Excuse me, can you learn through doing a computer or I guess digital forensic exam.  Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: Yeah. So what can you learn? You're going to learn about someone's habits. You're gonna learn about someone's habits, their likes, their dislikes. You look at my computer, you're going to find articles about football, Chicago Bears, and beer. And it's going to be as simple as that. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: So you're going to understand someone's habits. What they did when they did it. Even where they did it from. Give you, give you a for instance, is, is we're working on a case right now involving a family dispute over a business. And come to find out we were able to discover that, our client was really worried that the other side had information that they shouldn't have known about. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: Well, the way they had it. And we found evidence was the other side actually was logging into our client's Gmail account. And performing searches in his mailbox. And the way we found that out was because we were able to grab our clients, Gmail or Google history and see that, someone got into his mailbox from a location that he wasn't in. Our, our client was in a completely different state. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: And here we find out that someone from Ohio. It's actually getting into his mailbox and doing all sorts of things. So, going back to your question, what can you find out? You're finding out information, not just about someone's shopping habits or about their likes and dislikes. But what they're doing when. Searches that they're conducting online, to give an extreme how to hide a body, something like that. But you see things like that and it's, it's when that took place. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: And it's also to, from where that took place as well, too. The reason why you may find that you get a lot of advertisements like on your computer for something you did on your cell phone is because we signed into these devices with the same credentials.  Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: I'm an Android user. So on my cell phone, I've got my Gmail, my Google account is signed in there. And I signed into my Google account on my computer. And so the history gets intermixed. The activity gets intermixed. And so that's beneficial to someone like me doing an investigation. And it also can be sometimes too, a little, difficult, cause you have to weed out, who's doing what, when and where, you know, where were they? Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: Cause things you can do that are appropriate maybe at home may not be appropriate at work. So you got to kind of weed that out as well, too.  Susan Stone: Greg, can you ever, use evidence that you take from a cell phone to prove that something didn't happen?  Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: Yeah, you can. What you're talking about there is the phrase proving a negative. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: And so in order to prove that something didn't happen, you got to look anywhere and everywhere for where that occurrence may have taken place. And rule it out. But you know, you certainly can. And we've been asked to do that at times. And, and, and the way we go about doing it is basically saying, we looked here, we look there, we looked at all these different places and we didn't see the evidence of it. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: We didn't see messages. Um, what what's, oftentimes what someone's asking us is can you prove that this message was never sent? You get a screenshot of someone else saying I got this message. And John sent Betty this message. And Betty says, this message came through and John says, no, it never did. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: And what you'd like to be able to do is look at John's phone, uh, where the message would've come from and see that not only did we not find that message to Betty, but we find all sorts of other messages and other activity around that time that shows the phone was being used. And we have this, this rich amount of information, but yet we're not finding that message. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: Quite often, it's not that case. But yeah, you could still go about using digital devices to say something didn't happen. It's just, it's, it's a more difficult process cause you have to check off all the boxes to make sure you're not seeing it from, all these different locations.  Kristina Supler: So I have another question. Kristina Supler: I mean, we know that virtually every teenager in America has an iPhone, some sort of an Android, some sort of smartphone. And there are and a constantly evolving array of social media apps and platforms available. So for particularly cases involving students in social media, what type of forensic analysis can be done on social media accounts? Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: Yeah. So with social media accounts, it's all a matter of whose account we're trying to get at and what kind of access do we have? The best type of access is that we actually get that individual's credentials. And then we can go into their social media account and see all the things that they're posting, all the things they're sharing, private messages sent and received and so on. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: And again, we may have other information around that such as where was that person when they made that post? Where was that person when, when they sent that message? And then of course the when. You know, the when is always important to. Absent of that for instance, like on, on Facebook, if we're investigating someone's Facebook account, maybe we don't have that person's actual credentials. But someone that's a friend of theirs on Facebook as long as you use their credentials to look at the look at the suspect's account.  Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: So we can gather some information that way as well, too. And what we're looking for all depends on the nature of the case. If it's like a, a matter where someone's claiming they slipped and fell and their diabilitated. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: And, and we go on their Facebook page and see that they're skiing out in Colorado. And it kind of contradicts the idea that someone slipped and fell. With school matters, it's going to be things such as you know, who was where and when, and who knows whom? Do we have pictures on someone's Instagram or someone's Facebook wall that shows them being a friend or an acquaintance of another important person in a case.  Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: And so that might be, important to someone such as you, when you're working on these student matters. Who knew whom and when? And where were they on certain on certain evenings?  Susan Stone: So, Greg, I'm going to get a little juicy here from our cases. Susan Stone: We have a lot of cases where we defend students who receive naked snapchat messages. And they either receive or send nude pictures, which is a crime. But these students tell us time and time again, they sent it via Snapchat and they thought it disappeared. And of course we know that other students capture the Snapchat and send it around. Susan Stone: But let's say that didn't happen. Is it true that snaps really disappear forever? Or can you uncover something about that nude photo?  Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: So obviously, to start with, when you're taking the photo in Snapchat, quite often, a copy of the photo may be saved on the phone itself. Before being attached to a Snapchat and sending along. It all depends on the method by which. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: That photo was taken in a sense, but if you're just talking about the stamp being sent between two people that information, if, if neither party saves, it decides to save it as a snap, it's going to be gone. It's most likely it's going to be gone. And I think most likely, because we've seen in the past where. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: Snapchat changes their software code and things may linger around a little bit longer than, than anybody intended. At the very beginning, Snapchat said, yes, all of the pictures and all the snaps are gone and come to find out that was, that couldn't be any more wrong. Things were left behind and we were able to do it and they cleaned up their accents that time. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: But there's always the possibility. Some things left behind and so on. But in general now, I mean, w w if two people send a, if one person sends a snap to the other and neither saves it, neither takes a screenshot of it. It's it's going to be gone as a know with, with that time, once that time. Is, is done. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: That Snapchat goes away.  Susan Stone: You can never be sure that it's not going to be,  Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: You can't be a hundred percent sure. Right, right. You can't be a hundred percent sure. What we will often find though, is still, maybe not the picture itself, but evidence and proof that a snap took place between two people, a specific time. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: We don't have the content of it. We don't have the picture. But sometimes that may be evidentiary enough for an attorney to get the results they're looking for. Yeah. Correct. The artifact. Yep. It's the artifact that's left behind. We don't have the picture, but we have, we have other things.  Kristina Supler: Let's just talk about computers in general. Kristina Supler: And I guess it would still include smartphones because smartphones are in a sense mini computers, but let's say something is deleted an email, a word documents, a PDF, whatever you name it. If something on an electronic device is deleted, is it gone forever? Can a forensic exam recover it?  Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: Yeah, it most likely there's going to be the ability to recover that document. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: But I will, as I often tell all of my clients is, is the honest answer, then the full answer. It depends, it depends on the situation. For instance, let's take your example of an email. If I am just using my Chrome browser or Mozilla or internet Explorer to view my emails. And I delete an email, chances are that email's not going to be recoverable. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: We might get a snippet of it, a piece of it, but that email's not going to be gone. If I'm using something like Outlook or a Thunderbird, or window, I'm sorry, a Mac mail. And I delete a message. Uh, I delete an email then it can be recovered. So there's two scenarios there where we're talking about recovering the same item and it comes back to, it depends. Kristina Supler: Let me ask you this. Sorry to interrupt, but I just had a thought. Someone deletes something and then use the software to try to cover up what they did. Yeah.  Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: If it's done properly, it's going to be gone. If it's done properly. I will say we, we just did one where an individual, deleted everything from a USB drive, but it ended up in their recycle bin. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: They didn't dump the recycle bin. But they used a piece of software to try and erase everything and it completely neglected the recycle bin. So everything they tried deleting and covering up was sitting there in the recycle bin. If used properly those tools definitely work. They will work a hundred percent of the time. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: You're really not going to know what was, what was deleted. Absent of a situation that, you're, you're not expecting. Let's go back though, to your comment about deleting and can you recover things. And back to my point about it depends because we get this a lot. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: Someone comes to us, especially in situations like yours. Someone comes to us and says, I have this picture. It was on my phone. And for some reason, whatever they deleted. You're not going to recover, deleted pictures from the cellphone. Especially in iPhone. With the technology involved. And I can get real, real techie here, but I'll, I'll avoid it. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: You're not going to get that picture back. So if somebody has well, okay, so now it depends. Did they synchronize it with the cloud? If they synchronize it with the cloud? Sure. But not everybody does that on their iPhone. A lot of the iPhones we deal with they might use the cloud. They might use their iCloud account for some things. But, but not, not always. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: So if it's not synchronized with the cloud and don't just assume that because I have an iPhone and, and even if I've signed into my iCloud account, you still have to make sure you enable synchronizing of pictures or synchronizing with documents or your calendar, your contacts, and so on. Which nine times out of 10, when someone comes to us, that's not the case. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: You know, they just had a picture on the phone. They deleted the picture and it's not going to be recoverable, uh, on a  Susan Stone: phone. We tell our clients. Be careful don't delete because there could still be evidence that you deleted and that could get you in trouble.  Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: Well, yeah, well, certainly most certainly because of that picture was tagged to a message of some sort we may, the picture could still rely on the message. If they delete the message, we can recover the message, not the picture, but we'll have a name of the picture. And show that a picture was sent with this type of message between these people and at a certain point in time.  Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: It's a tough thing because when someone is in a position that they're in before they come to an attorney, such as the two of you, they freak out and they just start deleting things left and right. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: I know your viewpoint is usually the more evidence, the better, because you know, what you're up against, and to probably defend your client. But also to, there's going to be some evidence there that's going to help them. There's gonna be something there that's, that's going to help them. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: So, to the parents out there listening, if their child gets in a situation, and they get into trouble, the best thing you can do is probably just grab all their digital devices, physically get them in your hand. And get them away from the child. Don't let the child be tempted. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: And I say child, it's usually a teenager, but don't let that person be tempted to start deleting things. And get advice from an attorney and decide the best way going forward. Hopefully you you've seized, those devices quick enough before they can start, deleting things. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: So because otherwise it's, it's, it's tough. There's always three sides of the story. There's there's person a and person B, and then there's the truth. And the problem is, is that each person is only going to keep what they want. And, and when you're trying to defend someone, there's probably not gonna be that evidence left around if they, if they've deleted it. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: So  Susan Stone: Did you hear that parents out there? If your kids get in trouble, take their devices. I assure you they're not going to die just because they have to go sometime without a smartphone. There was society pre smartphone.  Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: Exactly. Exactly. And if they need their smartphone for, for work or communicate, You take the SIM card out of the old of the, out of the phone, which has the evidence, and you put that SIM card into some other phone you've got laying around her or go to the Apple store and get into another phone or something like that. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: You know, you can transfer their phone number with, with just swamping that SIM card. But yeah, take, take their devices. Sometimes I'd like to take the devices away until someone reaches the age of 21 or 25, but that's a whole other conversation.  Kristina Supler: Greg, what advice do you have for parents, who want to monitor their children's devices or online activity for whatever reason? Kristina Supler: I mean, are there any tips or suggestions you have for that.  Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: Yeah, certainly. One of the things we do in our household, my kids both have a couple of old Android phones. And, my wife has them on a Google family plan with her. So she knows any apps that they installed. She can also see their usage on the phones and so on. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: So she's able to monitor that. And now my kids are 10 and 13, so that's along the younger side. In the iPhone world, apple also has like family, apple IDs. But the other thing that I've seen people do as well is you can take the same apple ID that you have on your phone. And sign that into your kid's phone. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: And then you see everything that they're doing. Again, you see all those purchases they're doing and so on. If your child wants to do something like Instagram or, or Tik TOK or something like that request that you become their, their friend or their follower, and they let you see everything that you may post. You're not going to look at it. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: But you have that ability. You can, you can see it, you see what they're doing. There's applications like, uh, net. That you can install on a device and you can watch what the person's doing, see who they're texting. Things like that. That, that's another way. I know some homes, not some people are familiar with what are called wireless mesh mesh networks, where basically everybody's homes wireless. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: And, and if you're just relying on your one cable box, that's not going to be good enough. So instead, you set up like a, what's called a mesh network. And there's a lot of them out there. We use, amplify and, and I know there's a, or B and, and Google nest and so on. Those systems often have the ability to record web traffic. The web traffic that's going through that network. They don't keep it for a long period of time. So if that's, if, if you have one of those devices, and you want to use it for that purpose, you should really look into how much of that traffic is being captured, and how long it stays around. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: Don't assume that, everything is captured and everything's out there and everything's done, you know, all the time. And, it's always recoverable because that's not always the case. Except well with the Google world again, if you have, that's the only thing you can do as well as on computers or even on, on phones, sign in with a known Google account and onto your child's devices. And then when you want, you can just do, what's called a Google Takeout and get all and get all of their, web activity that.  Susan Stone: So that sounds like parent espionage. And, uh, on that note, we did promise our listeners that we would bring CSI to their home. Susan Stone: So parents, if you want to know more about this, we will have both on our website this podcast, um, posted, and I think Greg will send a copy to you to do this at post as well at Vestige. Yep. And again, thanks for bringing CSI live to Real Talk with Susan and Kristina. Thank you so much.  Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: Well, thank you for having me. Greg Kelley, Vestige Digital Investigations: It's been a pleasure.

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Hanna Stotland, an independent educational consultant specializing in crisis management. They discuss how students with academic or disciplinary violations can have a chance to achieve their higher education dreams. The conversation includes updates to the college application process, under what circumstances students must disclose their disciplinary history and an effective strategy to help overcome these obstacles and show that these students will be great members of the academic community. Links Mentioned in the Show Hanna Stotland's Website Show Notes: How Hanna leads students and families in crisis back onto a higher educational path (01:21) Why disciplinary history is now a thing of the past for some colleges/ universities (03:01) Don't ask, don't tell? Should a student still disclose their disciplinary history even if it isn't required? (04:57) Why it's more advantageous to be honest about your previous sanctions (06:26) What most clients don't want to hear (07:56) Keep it clean, if you don't want this coming back to haunt you (09:09) Is disclosure of disciplinary action required when transferring schools? (11:06) What are the limitations of the FERPA waiver? (11:47) The kind of record a student should ALWAYS disclose (12:59) It's not the crime, it's the coverup. (14:41) Why your honesty about your past, when asked, is what matters above all else (15:42) How even students with grave accusations can become entrusted to be a great academic member of a college (16:50) Why suspension and/or expulsion is not the end of the world (17:37) Transcript: Susan Stone: Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Kristina Supler. We're full-time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real life candid conversations.  Today, we are super excited to invite our friend, Hannah Stotland as our guest. Hannah has a great story. She is proud to tell you that she flunked out of high school and ended up graduating from Harvard college in undergrad, and then Harvard law. Today, she's an independent educational consultant that specializes in crisis management.  And she works with families to get their students in either undergraduate colleges or universities or graduate schools after the blank hits the fan. And we, Christine and I work with Hannah a lot on cases.  Kristina Supler: Hannah. Thank you so much for joining us today. We're thrilled to have you Susan's just told us a bit about your life experience and your history that brought you to what you do now, which is so interesting. Expand on that a little. Tell us more about yourself and what services you provide to families in crisis.  Hannah Stotland: Thanks so much for having me. I'm really glad to be here. The biggest things that I do for families in crisis is help them see that there is a higher education future for them and help them achieve it. And so that involves both figuring out what steps they need to take to get into or back into the educational path that they were on, as well as helping the student to talk about whatever happened. And so that's usually where a lot of our emphasis is when I'm working together with a student, understanding how I can teach them. What I did during my legal career, it is perfectly ethical and normal for lawyers to speak for their clients. That is a it's a core function of a lawyer to speak on the client's behalf. In the higher ed space that is typically not ethical and not appropriate.  So if the student is addressing an admissions office that the student is supposed to speak for themselves. And so what I do is become an educator and a coach and teach them how to advocate for themselves more effectively. Susan Stone: Thank you for that description. A lot of people don't know about this, but Kristina and I work with a lot of high school students who find themselves in a situation where there's a suspension or an expulsion.  Now we learned that the common application which use to require students to talk about those prior disciplinary records has changed. Are we right that the common app no longer asked students to report suspensions and expulsions?  Hannah Stotland: So the common app no longer has that question as a default. Individual universities and there are, I think between seven and 900 that are available on the common app. Those individual universities can still choose to include any version of a discipline question onto their required supplements.  So it's very common. If you're applying to Whoville college, you have the common app portion of the application, and then Whoville college might also have a section you need to fill out, tell us what attracts you to Whoville. And that portion can include anything that the college wishes. And so the non-default questions such as the criminal history question, which has gone to non-default status for several years now, and the disciplinary question, which is joining that club the non-required question club. Individual schools can still ask that question and still require it for applicants to their institution. And so you should expect, and I certainly expect for the most competitive tier of colleges to consistently ask and less competitive colleges may be all over the map. So it's going to depend on where you apply, whether you are asked about disciplinary history.  Kristina Supler: So we're often presented with a question from inquiring students or even parents. I had this little sticky situation my freshman year. But the school told me it was no big deal. And there's not really a record of it. But I don't know. Should I share that information disciplinary history with the college? There's not a specific question that asks for it. Generally speaking, what do you advise? Students and parents in terms of disclosure about prior disciplinary history, no matter how minor. Hannah Stotland: That's a great question. Cause we get that a lot. So you don't have to answer questions, not asked. Any question that's asked you have to answer truthfully. That being said, I have quite a number of, in a growing number of students where I think it is in their interest to talk about the disciplinary history, even if they are not asked. And there's two situations where that's particularly true. One is on your transcript. I don't want that to stand by itself. It's to your advantage to provide context and if you will, your side of the story to any college, that's going to see that. Even if they don't have a question, what is your disciplinary history? The second and a growing area is if there is a risk or a significant risk of third party disclosure. So that has been, what's been keeping me busy all through the pandemic is. A lot of times my students were told by their high school, you don't need to disclose this, or perhaps they were never disciplined, but other people in the class are aware of some wrongdoing on the students' part. And those third parties are emailing or even tweeting at the colleges saying, did you know that your admitted student sent me this IM three years ago?  Susan Stone: Or they post it on their social media and then they send that posting to the college. We've seen that.  Hannah Stotland: Correct. So they may either publicly or privately, but notify a college or a group of colleges about this wrongdoing or alleged wrongdoing in my student's past. You may fall to the carpet for that. Even if the school didn't require you to disclose it, that doesn't mean. They are bound to ignore it. So a classic example would be if you use the racist language in a Snapchat to a small group of friends at some point in the past. No college that I'm aware of asks, have you ever said anything offensive in an IM before? If it is brought to their attention? They may well decide to rescind your acceptance over it. So you need to think about if there's a real risk that that's going to happen. Evaluate the strategic option of disclosing it yourself upfront apologizing and putting it in context in order to minimize the harm that's going to result if that third party disclosure takes place. Kristina Supler: Hannah, I imagine that parents probably frankly, cringe when hearing that, what you've just shared and probably push back and say, well, but wait a minute. If I disclose what Susie or Johnny said on Twitter or this disciplinary issue that no one even really knows about, it's going to automatically make Susie or Johnny a less desirable candidates. How do you respond to that?  Hannah Stotland: Well, you are constrained by the options that you have, right? The best situation would be for your student. Never to have said something like this. That would be great. But we don't live in that world. Right now you have a choice between two options that you wouldn't pick out if you could. You have the choice of disclosing it yourself, or you have the choice where you run the risk of them, hearing it from someone else. Now, if you think that risk is small, maybe you say I'm gonna live a little closer to the edge, right? This is a risk preference question. There isn't any answer about what strategy is best for all students. But if you have a student, for example well, here's an example. If this third party is already publicizing the information all over your community, You should assume that that's going to get to the college. And so given this tough situation that you don't want to, and it might be better to bring it up yourself where you can at least get some brownie points for honesty. Susan Stone: I've been wondering, do college admissions teams, when they're evaluating an applicant, look up social media about a candidate.  Hannah Stotland: They don't do that routinely, but may do it. And I always recommend at every student should look at their social media and their whole history of social media with the assumption that colleges are going to examine it all the way back. They may not. But if they get a tip, right, if someone tweets at them or emails them and says, Hey, you want to check out this post from Susie's background. You should assume that they will. And so keeping it clean is a smart move.  Susan Stone: Yeah. Kristina why don't you share with Hannah? Because we've seen this problem of Internet posting so much what we had to do with our practice to deal with this problem. Kristina Supler: Yeah. So it's interesting you bring that up Hannah, that is school isn't necessarily automatically going to look at social media. But if something gets on their radar or something is reported, they may. And it's for that exact reason that our law practice has evolved considerably into different areas. And we've actually developed a non-traditional aspect of our law practice that is essentially reputation and crisis management dealing with online content removal, social media challenges. How to handle, one's reputation moving forward, whether it's with respect to applying, to undergraduate or graduate universities, or perhaps even more broadly speaking job opportunities in the future. So this aspect of what you're talking about, it's, so it's so significant and it's become such an ingrained part of modern life and what students are facing. Something that I'm thinking about because we've spoken a lot about students applying to undergrad and grad school, but what about students going through a transfer? Do those students still fill out a common app? What are disclosure obligations there generally speaking with respect to disciplinary history.  Hannah Stotland: So the, those transfer applications resemble freshmen applications in many ways. Just like, for freshmen candidates, some universities use the common application and some do not. And just like with freshmen applications some we'll choose to include a disciplinary question and some will not. And your obligation of Answering all the questions that are asked truthfully are the same as our your strategic choices. Very similarly you may feel that it's in your interest to disclose and or discuss something that's on your record or something in your past, even if you aren't required to.  Susan Stone: Hannah, I've always been under the impression though that transfer or. And transfer e colleges do communicate. So if there is a serious disciplinary record, like for a title nine. It's going to be disclosed by one institution to another. Is that your understanding?  Hannah Stotland: So high schools and colleges are treated the same by the law. And in all of those cases universities and high schools can only share those details of your record with other institutions that you give them written permission to do. So, if you're doing a FIRPA waiver, a waiver of your right to privacy and your educational records as per that application to that institution. It is not a blanket waiver. They can't go talk to the press about your title nine case because you signed a FERPA waiver to allow you to apply to Whoville state university. Susan Stone: But as a practical matter, when you want to transfer don't, you have to execute the FIRPA waiver and everything gets transferred on part of the process?  Hannah Stotland: As a practical matter, whatever the target college, the place, you're applying as a practical matter, whatever they ask for you should give, or you should assume that you won't be further considered by that college. But not every college is going to talk about everything. Now, if you have a suspension or expulsion for title IX, it is very likely that that's going to end up on your transcript or in what's called a a statement of standing. Where the target institution wants a form from your previous institution where they say he's in good standing here, he's eligible return, or he isn't. And very frequently that's going to come up. But there isn't any universal pattern there, there are schools that are not very selective and schools that are not terribly on the ball. Now, I can't think of the situation where I'm advising a student who has a title IX record, not to disclose that. Because you don't want it coming up later. And one thing we know about title nine is whoever is accusing you is very mad at you. And you should assume that that person is going to want to make sure that other institutions know about that history. So I can't think of a time when I would advise a student be silent about your title nine record. But that's not always because the institutions can just talk to each other and they're necessarily going to share all of this.  Susan Stone: What about these wrongful collaboration, cheating cases?  We've seen a rise in that. Is that something that's really going to impair a student has to be disclosed plagiarism or wrongful collaboration. I'm just curious.  Hannah Stotland: On the question is, were at least the language of the common app, and this is very common language is, have you been found responsible for an academic or disciplinary violation? If you have, and you are asked that question, you must say yes. Otherwise you're lying on your application and that lie on the application is likely to be a much, much more serious impediment to your future career, then the underlining lying offense. Right? So we people said about Richard Nixon, it's not the crime, it's the coverup. And question. Susan Stone: Cause we opened with you don't have to report suspension.  Hannah Stotland: Whoa. Wait, we opened with what?  Susan Stone: We talked about, how now the common app no longer asks about suspensions,  Hannah Stotland: it doesn't as a default, many schools will still ask. If asked, you must say yes. I thought we were talking about the situation where you are asked. Susan Stone: Okay. So what about um, just in particular cheating cases.  Hannah Stotland: The nature of the offense has nothing to do with your obligation to disclose. It might have to do with whether you're strategically disclosing when you are not asked. But whether it's ax murderer, or asking for help on a test, doesn't change your ethical obligation to disclose if asked. It may influence whether you want to disclose when you are not asked.  Kristina Supler: So it sounds like Hannah, the bottom line is students should be truthful. Because as you said, not being truthful is worse perhaps than the underlying conduct, the ick factor in question. And in those situations, when a student's struggling with something to disclose, and then how do I explain this to the school? That's where a student could contact you. And this is a service that you offer help with shaping a narrative, writing an essay to explain what happened, right. Is that an essence, something that you can help these students do?  Hannah Stotland: Yes, that's what I do. And I think there's often too much emphasis on what am I being asked? How can I find a school that doesn't ask? And not enough emphasis on how can I put this in context and explain it away? Or explain it in a way that makes them think, well, this student has learned their lesson. I can be confident that they're going to be a great member of our academic community and I trust them. And that is achievable. And that is often achievable even when the accusation is very serious. I I've yet to work with a suspended or expelled student who was ready to continue their education. And I have to give a disclaimer here for those who are in the throws of an addiction or a criminal matter investigation into them. But those who the entire problem is a suspension or expulsion. And they have learned from that and are ready to move forward. Those students can find educational opportunities and appropriate ones. And people should not be worried. Well, this is the end of everything. He can never even get a bachelor's degree. Nevermind become a lawyer. His education is over. That's never true, right? The only time I've ever said to a family I don't believe we can move forward with this at this time is where the student was in prison. Short of going to prison. These are treatable conditions and we can help students find a new educational path that works for them. Kristina Supler: Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Hannah. This was really excellent thoughts that you've shared and food for thought as a whole, for everyone going through the process of finding a new institution. We really appreciate your time today. For families, looking for an independent educational consultant, particularly specializing in crisis management Hannah Stotland is the best of the best.  Thank you everyone for listening to real talk with Susan and Christina. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it. And don't forget to subscribe to our podcast. And for more resources, of course, you can visit us online at studentdefensethatkjk.com.  Susan Stone: Thank you.