Podcasts about like chris

Christopher Scardino teaches us to think twice before we put our personal information online or click "agree to terms" mindlessly. Data brokers are lurking and you are the product being hunted and sold. It's no fun to think about this! One day we may look back on these days as the Wild West of The Internet. Right now, there is little to protect us. But there are many who can help! Like Chris who will answer your questions here: https://www.scardipdap.com/index.html#about

Hour 4 - Should the Bills trade for a wide receiver like Chris Olave full 2368 Tue, 04 Mar 2025 15:44:27 +0000 vIGlohDicG8cIA1y7Qc7JRNd8J7ad0VY sports The Jeremy & Joe Show sports Hour 4 - Should the Bills trade for a wide receiver like Chris Olave When it comes to sports talk in the morning, especially Bills and Sabres, there is only once source in Buffalo... The "Jeremy and Joe Show"! There is no other morning show in Western New York that offers you the chance to sound off on your teams the morning after the game like "Jeremy and Joe". Jeremy White and Joe DiBiase break it all down, and give you exclusive access to the Bills and Sabres with a star studded weekly lineup of guests including: - Tuesdays at 8 a.m. (DURING HOCKEY SEASON): Sabres head coach Don Granato - Thursdays at 9:30 a.m. (DURING FOOTBALL SEASON): Scott Pianowski from Yahoo! Fantasy Sports On Demand Audio is presented by Northwest Bank. For What's Next. 2024 © 2021 Audacy, Inc. Sports False https://player.amperwave

 Welcome!Bruce Downes Catholic Ministries is for people who are seeking to know more about God and Church and where believers from around the world can strengthen their walk with Christ.Like, comment & subscribe to stay updated with the latest content! Connect With Bruce At:► Website: https://BruceDownes.org ► Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheCatholicGuyBruceDownes ► Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thecatholicguy ► Twitter: https://twitter.com/thecatholicguy ► Online Store: https://brucedownes.org/store Consider Becoming a Faith Builders Partner:Everyone who donates to Bruce Downes Catholic Ministries is what we call a Faith Builder Partner. The team are working to build the faith of every person we connect with whether they are powerful or weak, rich or poor, young or old, in whatever city, town, village and country they are in. ►https://brucedownes.org/giving/#brucedownes​ #catholicministries​​​ #praytherosarv #devotional #dailydevotional

Chris Brooks wants to know: Do you think you are successful?  The answer will depend on how you define success! Join Chris today as he explores an upside-down view of success through the life of Joseph.  See a clear picture of what success means in God’s eyes! EQUIPPERS - Our next EQUIPPER WEBINAR is Thursday, Nov. 14!Topic: "Beyond Politic: a Christian Response"  REGISTRATION DETAILS ARE IN YOUR E-MAIL INBOX.  Not an Equipper and want to attend?   Become an Equipper Today Equipped with Chris Brooks is made possible by your support.  To donate now, click hereTo learn more about Equipped with Chris Brooks click here

Chris Brooks wants to know: Do you think you are successful?  The answer will depend on how you define success! Join Chris today as he explores an upside-down view of success through the life of Joseph.  See a clear picture of what success means in God’s eyes! EQUIPPERS - Our next EQUIPPER WEBINAR is Thursday, Nov. 14!Topic: "Beyond Politic: a Christian Response"  REGISTRATION DETAILS ARE IN YOUR E-MAIL INBOX.  Not an Equipper and want to attend?   Become an Equipper Today Equipped with Chris Brooks is made possible by your support.  To donate now, click hereTo learn more about Equipped with Chris Brooks click here

I Am Just Like Chris Kelly, I Just Dont Like Him.

What does it really take to excel as a CNC machinist? A hunger to learn, a touch of aggressive self-advocacy, and a knack for problem-solving are the major take-home messages in this episode.We speak to Christopher Zappettini, Nushrat Ahmed, and Danny Hill Jr., three CNC machinists who all took different paths into the field, skipping the traditional trade school route. They explore the top skills needed in the industry, how to be a great frontline leader, and their top tips that you won't get from a trade school. Chris explains what he thinks is sometimes missing from the trade school route, why problem-solving was the number one skill he took from his engineering background, and why you need to be an “aggressive self-advocate.”Nushrat takes us through her transition from automotive engineering to becoming a CNC Swiss operator and shares one underrated skill you need to work in CNC machining. Like Chris, she believes it's so important to advocate for yourself and learn to market your own skills.Danny talks about the value of determination and continuous upskilling, pointing out the underrated importance of manual machine skills today, and taking charge of your own skill development. This episode is a must-listen for anyone in the manufacturing industry and CNC machining looking to advance their career and become a top CNC machinist. In this episode, find out:Why having an inspiring teacher was key to Chris' education at ASU What Chris learned from his engineering program and early jobs about CNC machining Two reasons why people coming out of trade schools don't hit the ground running – the importance of a good teacher and realizing that you get out what you put inWhy engineering is about problem-solving at its coreWhy you need to be an “aggressive self-advocate” and take responsibility for your own learning and development through your career What does a great frontline leader look like? Why solving problems while parts are running is the ideal approachChris' advice on communication and why overcommunicating is almost never a bad thingWhat Chris believes is the most underrated skill to make it as a CNC machinistWhy Nush became a CNC machinist after pivoting from an automotive career path What Nush believes it means to be a great frontline leader and why you should advocate for and market yourselfCleanliness as an underrated skill to be a CNC machinist The top characteristics of a frontline leader, according to DannyWhen Danny realized continuous learning was essential for his career Danny's picks for the top practical and underrated skills in CNC machinery Enjoying the show? Please leave us a review here. Even one sentence helps. It's feedback from Manufacturing All-Stars like you that keeps us going!Tweetable Quotes:“The most ideal situation is to get parts running and while they're running, solve the problems while it's still in the shop. You start solving the problems while the parts are being produced.” - Christopher Zappettini“You don't need to know numbers. Your handwriting doesn't have to be nice. You don't have to be good at reading. But you need to be neat. There are so many moving parts, you're going to be grabbing so many things, you're going to be moving so much, it'll make your life easier if everything has its place.” - Nushrat Ahmed“I want to learn all of it. Let me master this one thing, then I'm going to the next, and the next, and the next. The more and more I make myself more marketable. In this trade, there's nowhere else to go but up. I want to just learn the new and latest technology to come." - Danny Hill Jr.Links &...

Chad Wanstreet and Chris Nichols have experienced similar career trajectories — but this is the first time they've sat down together. Like Chris, Chad transitioned from architecture to VFX, and his experience spans working at notable firms including Blur Studio and FuseFX. Along the way, Chad has contributed to projects that pushed the boundaries of visual effects, such as The Sympathizer, SWAT, The Tick, and the short-lived but brilliant Kill the Orange-Faced Bear. Chad discusses the challenges and innovations brought by technological advancements, such as virtual production and real-time ray tracing, and highlights the importance of understanding these tools. Additionally, Chad shares personal anecdotes about the highs and lows of his career, including the struggles during the economic downturn of 2008 and the unexpected opportunities that led him to his current role.

Welcome Back Ben and Laura for round three, and two old dinosaurs learn the subtle details of dating in a modern culture. We have our Papyrus out to take notes!

Red Dwarf changed Tom Price's comedy DNA. The multitalented actor, radio presenter and podcaster shares his fan story - from being Talky Toaster at school, to bonding with his future wife over their shared love of the show, all the way to what happened when Tom did studio warm-up for a Dave-era Red Dwarf taping. His insights are plentiful, especially when it comes to appreciating why Chris Barrie is so fantastic as Rimmer. Turning our attention to series 3 episode 4, Bodyswap, we talk about all the good stuff - of which there's lots. Like Chris and Craig impersonating each other. Danny's exquisitely timed tea drop. And, of course, the smegging crash scene. But we also consider what doesn't quite work… and what might have made it even better… Do any of our alternate versions of the plot strike you as better than the original? Email in or let us know on social media. SO WHAT IS IT?Better Than Life is the pod where comedians talk Red Dwarf, the greatest sci-fi sitcom, one episode at a time. With a fresh guest every ep, we're your perfect podcast companion for a first watch or a rewatch. Be warned: spoilers! Hosted by Fergus (huge fan) and John (lapsed fan). Production, artwork and insights by Alex Watson. FANCY SOME LINKS?Follow Tom Price on Instagram @thepricetom Watch Tom's brilliant Amazon purchase history podcast, My Mate Bought A Toaster, on YouTube or find the audio version on your podcast app. WHAT DO YOU THINK?Have a word on our socials: X/Instagram/Facebook - @itsBTLpodEMAIL USWe'd love to ask your questions on the pod – and to hear your feedback. Drop us a line: betterthanlifepod@gmail.com ENJOY OUR THEME TUNE?There's more where that came from: https://holygoats.bandcamp.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I recently spoke with Chris Brockway of Broc Cellars in Berkeley.   Chris has been making Natural Wine for over 20 years, starting Broc with a single Barrel in 2002 and continuing to grow since then, working with a large variety of grapes and regions.  In 2023 they purchased Fox Hill vineyard after 10 years of working together and have now taken over the farming.  We discuss how Chris got started, The natural wine scene at the time, some of his more iconic Broc wines, collaborations, and purchasing a farm, not just a vineyard. Broc is making a real delicious and diverse array of natural wines.  The Fox Hill wines are especially interesting and the Love wines you can find in larger distribution than most other natural wines, in bottles and cans.  The tasting room is a great place to hang out if you are in the area and grab some of the smaller releases.  You can follow them on instagram.com/broccellars and find all theirwines on the website at www.broccellars.com, Like Chris mentioned they also have a of events at the winery. Follow the podcast ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠at www.instagram.com/indiewinepodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or email indiewinepodcast@gmail.com with questions, comments or feedback. If you'd like to support the podcast further, please tell your wine friends about it and rate the podcast wherever you're listening if you like what you hear or donate on Patreon at - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/IndieWinePodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to allow for more episodes and to help defray other costs. Thanks. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/indie-wine-podcast/id1673557547⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/06FsKGiM9mYhhCHEFDOwjb⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/indiewinepodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠ --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/matt-wood4/support

If you missed the other episodes with thoughtbot Incubator Program partcipants and founders Mike Rosenthal and Chris Cerrito of Goodz, you can listen to the first episode (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/s3e2incubatorgoodz) and the second episode (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/s3e4incubatorgoodz), and the third episode (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/s3e6incubatorgoodz) to catch up! Lindsey Christensen and Jordyn Bonds catch up with the co-founders of Goodz, Chris Cerrito and Mike Rosenthal, where they share insights from their journey during the Incubator program, including the usefulness of the application process in aligning their vision and the challenges and benefits of user interviews and the importance of not overreacting to single user feedback and finding a balance in responding to diverse opinions. They reveal the varied reactions of users to Goodz's product, highlighting the different market segments interested in it. As the Incubator program nears its end for Goodz, Chris and Mike reflect on their achievements and future plans. They've made significant progress, such as setting up an e-commerce site and conducting successful user interviews. The co-founders discuss their excitement about the potential of their product and the validation they received from users. Mike mentions the importance of focusing on B2B sales and the possibility of upcoming events like South by Southwest and Record Store Day. Transcript: LINDSEY: Thanks for being here. My name's Lindsey. I head up marketing at thoughtbot. If you haven't joined one of these before, we are checking in with two of the founders who are going through the thoughtbot Startup Incubator to learn how it's going, what's new, what challenges they're hitting, and what they're learning along the way. If you're not familiar with thoughtbot, we're a product design and development consultancy, and we hope your team and your product become a success. And one way we do that is through our startup incubator. So, today, we are joined by our co-founders, Mike Rosenthal and Chris Cerrito, Co-Founders of the startup Goodz. And we also have another special guest today, Danny Kim, from the thoughtbot side, Senior Product Manager at thoughtbot. So, I think, to start off, we'll head over to the new face, the new voice that we've got with us today. Danny, tell us a little bit about your role at thoughtbot and, specifically, the incubator. DANNY: Yeah, sure. First of all, thanks for having me on, and thanks for letting me join in on all the fun. I'm one of the product managers at thoughtbot. I typically work for the Lift-Off team. We usually work with companies that are looking to, like, go into market with their first version MVP. They might have a product that exists and that they're already kind of doing well with, and they kind of want to jump into a new segment. We'll typically work with companies like that to kind of get them kicked off the ground. But it's been really awesome being part of the incubator program. It's my first time in helping with the market validation side. Definitely also, like, learning a lot from this experience [laughs] for myself. Coming at it specifically from a PM perspective, there's, like, so much variation usually in product management across the industry, depending on, like, what stage of the product that you're working in. And so, I'm definitely feeling my fair share of impostor syndrome here. But it's been really fun to stretch my brand and, like, approach problems from, like, a completely different perspective and also using different tools. But, you know, working with Mike and Chris makes it so much easier because they really make it feel like you're part of their team, and so that definitely goes a long way. LINDSEY: It just goes to show everyone gets impostor syndrome sometimes [laughter], even senior product managers at thoughtbot [laughter]. Thanks for that intro. It's, you know, the thoughtbot team learns along the way, too, you know, especially if usually you're focused on a different stage of product development. Mike, it's been only three weeks or a very long three weeks since last we checked in with you, kind of forever in startup time. So, I think the last time, we were just getting to know you two. And you were walking us through the concept, this merging of the digital and physical world of music, and how we interact with music keepsakes or merchandise. How's my pitch? MIKE: Good. Great. You're killing it. [laughter] LINDSEY: And has anything major changed to that concept in the last three weeks? MIKE: No. I mean, I can't believe it's only been three weeks. It feels like it's been a long time since we last talked. It's been an intense three weeks, for sure. No, it's been going really well. I mean, we launched all sorts of stuff. I'm trying to think of anything that's sort of fundamentally changed in terms of the plan itself or kind of our, yeah, what we've been working on. And I think we've pretty much stayed the course to sort of get to where we are now. But it's been really intensive. I think also having sort of Thanksgiving in there, and we were kind of pushing to get something live right before the Thanksgiving break. And so, that week just felt, I mean, I was just dead by, you know, like, Thursday of Thanksgiving. I think we all were. So, it's been intense, I would say, is the short answer. And I'm happy, yeah, to get into kind of where things are at. But big picture, it's been an intense three weeks. LINDSEY: That's cool. And when we talked, you were, you know, definitely getting into research and user interviews. Have those influenced any, you know, changes along the way in the plan? MIKE: Yeah. They've been really helpful. You know, we'd never really done that before in any of the sort of past projects that we've worked on together. And so, I think just being able to, you know, read through some of those scripts and then sit through some of the interviews and just kind of hearing people's honest assessment of some things has been really interesting. I'm trying to think if it's materially affected anything. I guess, you know, at first, we were, like, we kind of had some assumptions around, okay, let's try to find, like...adult gift-givers sounds like the wrong thing, adults who give gifts as, like, a persona. The idea that, like, you know, maybe you gift your siblings gifts, and then maybe this could be a good gift idea. And I think, you know, we had a hard time kind of finding people to talk in an interesting way about that. And I think we've kind of realized it's kind of a hard persona to kind of chop up and talk about, right, Chris? I don't know [crosstalk 04:55] CHRIS: Well, it also seemed to, from my understanding of it, it seemed to, like, genuinely stress out the people who were being interviewed... MIKE: [laughs] CHRIS: Because it's kind of about a stressful topic [inaudible 05:03], you know, and, like, especially -- LINDSEY: Why? [laughs] CHRIS: Well, I think, I don't know, now I'm making assumptions. Maybe because we're close to the holiday season, and that's a topic in the back of everybody's mind. But yeah, Danny, would you disagree with that? Those folks, from what we heard, seemed like they were the most difficult to kind of extract answers from. But then, if the subject changed and we treated them as a different persona, several of those interviews proved to be quite fruitful. So, it's just really interesting. DANNY: Yeah. It really started, like, you kind of try to get some answers out of people, and there's, like, some level of people trying to please you to some extent. That's just, like, naturally, how it starts. And you just, like, keep trying to drill into the answers. And you just keep asking people like, "So, what kind of gifts do you give?" And they're just like, "Oh my goodness, like, I haven't thought about buying gifts for my sister in [laughs], like, you know, in forever. And now, like [laughs], I don't know where to go." And they get, like, pretty stressed out about it. But then we just kind of started shifting into like, "All right, cool, never mind about that. Like, do you like listening to music?" And they're like, "Yes." And then it just kind of explodes from there. And they're like, "This last concert that I went to..." and all of this stuff. And it was much more fruitful kind of leaning more towards that, actually, yeah. LINDSEY: That's fascinating. I guess that speaks to, especially at this stage and the speed and the amount of interviews you're doing, the need for being, like, really agile in those interviews, and then, like, really quickly applying what you're learning to making the next one even more valuable. MIKE: Yeah. And I think, you know, like, we launched just a little sort of website experiment or, like, an e-commerce experiment right before Thanksgiving. And I think now, you know, we're able to sort of take some of those learnings from those interviews and apply them to both sort of our ad copy itself but also just different landing pages in different language on the different kind of versions of the site and see if we can find some resonance with some of these audience groups. So, it's been interesting. LINDSEY: Are you still trying to figure out who that early adopter audience is, who that niche persona is? MIKE: I think we -- CHRIS: Yes, we are. I think we have a good idea of who it is. And I think right now we're just trying to figure out really how to reach those people. That, I think, is the biggest challenge right now for us. MIKE: Yeah. With the e-commerce experiment it was sort of a very specific niche thing that is a little bit adjacent to what I think we want to be doing longer term with Goodz. And so, it's weird. It's like, we're in a place we're like, oh, we really want to find the people that want this thing. But also, this thing isn't necessarily the thing that we think we're going to make longer term, so let's not worry too hard about finding them. You know what I mean? It's been an interesting sort of back and forth with that. CHRIS: From the interviews that we conducted, you know, we identified three key personas. Most of them have come up, but I'll just relist them. There's the sibling gift giver. There was the merch buyers; these are people who go to concerts and buy merchandise, you know, T-shirts, albums, records, things along those lines to support the artists that they love. And then the final one that was identified we gave the title of the 'Proud Playlister'. And these are people who are really into their digital media platforms, love making playlists, and love sharing those playlists with their friends. And that, I would say, the proud playlister is really the one that we have focused on in terms of the storefront that we launched, like, the product is pretty much specifically for them. But the lessons that we're learning while making this product and trying to get this into the hands of the proud playlisters will feed into kind of the merch buyers. MIKE: Yeah. And I think that, you know, it's funny, like, this week is kind of a poignant week for this, right? Because it's the week that Spotify Wrapped launched, right? So, it's like, in the course of any given year, it's probably, like, the one week of the year that lots and lots and lots of people are thinking about playlists all of a sudden, so trying a little bit to see if we can ride that wave or just kind of dovetail with that a bit, too. LINDSEY: Absolutely. And do you want to give just, like, the really quick reminder of what the product experience is like? MIKE: Oh yeah [laughs], good call. CHRIS: This is a prototype of it. It's called the Goodz Mixtape. Basically, the idea is that you purchase one of these from us. You give us a playlist URL. We program that URL onto the NFC chip that's embedded in the Good itself. And then when you scan this Good, that playlist will come up. So, it's a really great way of you make a playlist for somebody, and you want to gift it to them; this is a great way to do that. You have a special playlist, maybe between you and a friend or you and a partner. This is a good way to commemorate that playlist, turn it into a physical thing, give that digital file value and presence in the physical world. LINDSEY: Great. Okay, so you casually mentioned this launch of an e-commerce store that happened last week. MIKE: It didn't feel casual. LINDSEY: Yeah. Why [laughter]...[inaudible 09:45] real casual. Why did you launch it? How's it going? MIKE: I don't know. Why did we launch it? I mean, well, we wanted to be able to test some assumptions. I think, you know, we wanted to get the brand out there a little bit, get our website out there, kind of introduce the concept. You know, this is a very...not that we've invented this product category, but it is a pretty obscure product category, right? And so, there's a lot of sort of consumer education that I think that has to go on for people to wrap their heads around this and why they'd want this. So, I think we wanted to start that process a little bit correctly, sort of in advance of a larger launch next year, and see if we could find some early community around this. You know, if we can find those core people who just absolutely love this, and connect with it, and go wild around it, then those are the people that we're going to be able to get a ton of information from and build for that persona, right? It's like, cool, these are the people who love this. Let's build more for them and go find other people like this. So, I think, for us, it was that. And then, honestly, it was also just, you know, let's test our manufacturing and fulfillment and logistics capabilities, right? I mean, this is...as much as we are a B2B, you know, SaaS platform or that's what we envision the future of Goodz being, there is a physical component of this. And, you know, we do have that part basically done at this point. But we just, you know, what is it like to order 1,000 of these? What is it like to put these in the mail to people and, you know, actually take orders? And just some of that processing because we do envision a more wholesale future where we're doing, you know, thousands or tens of thousands of this at a time. And so, I think we just want to button up and do some dry runs before we get to those kinds of numbers. CHRIS: I think it also it's important to remember that we are talking in startup time. And while this last week seems like an eternity, it's been a week [laughs] that we've had this in place. So, we're just starting to learn these things, and we plan on continuing to do so. MIKE: Yeah. But I think we thought that getting a website up would be a good way to just start kind of testing everything more. LINDSEY: Great. Danny, what went into deciding what would be in this first version of the site and the e-commerce offering? DANNY: I mean, a lot of it was kind of mostly driven by Chris and Mike. They kind of had a vision and an idea of what they wanted to sell. Obviously, from the user interviews, we were starting to hone in a little bit more and, like, we had some assumptions going into it. I think we ultimately did kind of feel like, yeah, I think, like, the playlisters seem to be, like, the target market. But just hearing it more and hearing more excitement from them was definitely just kind of like, yeah, I think we can double down on this piece. But, ultimately, like, in terms of launching the e-commerce platform, and the storefront, and the website, like, just literally looking at the user journey and being like, how does a user get from getting onto a site, like, as soon as they land there to, like, finishing a purchase? And what points do they need? What are the key things that they need to think through and typically will run into? And a lot of it is just kind of reflecting on our own personal buyer behavior. And, also, as we were getting closer to the launch, starting to work through some of those assumptions about buyer behavior. As we got there, we obviously had some prototypes. We had some screenshots that we were already working with. Like, the design team was already starting to build out some of the site. And so, we would just kind of show it to them, show it to our users, and just be like, hey, like, how do you expect to purchase this? Like, what's the next step that you expect to take? And we'd just kind of, like, continue to iterate on that piece. And so... LINDSEY: Okay. So you were, before launching, even showing some of those mockups and starting to incorporate them in the user interviews. DANNY: Yeah, yeah. I mean, we tried to get it in there in front of them as early as possible, partially because, like, at some point in the user interviews, like, you're mostly just trying to first understand, like, who are our target customers? Who are these people? And we have an assumption of or an idea of who we think they are. But really, like, once you start talking to people, you kind of are, like, okay, like, this thing that I thought maybe it wasn't so accurate, or, like, the way that they're kind of talking about these products doesn't 100% match what I originally walked into this, you know, experiment with. And so, we, like, start to hone in on that. But after a certain point, you kind of get that idea and now you're just like, okay, you seem to be, like, the right person to talk to. And so, if I were to show you this thing, do you get it, right? Like, do you understand what's happening? Like, how to use this thing, what this product even does. And then also, like, does the checkout experience feel intuitive for you? Is it as simple as, like, I just want to buy a T-shirt? So, like, I'm just going to go by the T-shirt, pick a size, and, you know, move on with my life. Can we make it as seamless as that? LINDSEY: And so, you mentioned it's only been a week since it's been live. Have you been able to learn anything from it yet? And how are you trying to drive people to it today? MIKE: Yeah, I think we learned that sales is hard [laughs] and slow, and it takes some time. But it's good, and we're learning a lot. I mean, it's been a while since I've really dug deep in, like, the analytics and marketing kind of metrics. And so, we've got all the Google Tag Manager stuff, you know, hooked up and just, you know, connecting with just exploring, honestly, like the TikTok advertising platform, and the YouTube Pre-Rolls, and Shorts. And, like, a lot of stuff that I actually, since the last time I was heavily involved in this stuff, is just totally new and different. And so, it's been super interesting to see the funnel and sort of see where people are getting in the site, where people are dropping off. You know, we had an interesting conversation in our thoughtbot sync yesterday or the day before, where we were seeing how, you know, we're getting lots of people to the front page and, actually, a good number of people to the product page, and, actually, like, you know, not the worst number of people to the cart. But then you were seeing really high cart abandonment rates. And then, you know, when you start Googling, and you're like, oh, actually, everybody sees very high cart abandonment rates; that's just a thing. But we were seeing, like, the people were viewing their cart seven or eight times, and they were on there sort of five times as long as they were on any other page. And it's this problem that I think Danny is talking about where, you know, we need to actually get a playlist URL. This gets into the minutiae of what we're building, but basically like, we need to get them to give us a playlist URL in order to check out, right? And so, you sort of have to, like, put yourself back in the mind of someone who's scrolling on Instagram, and they see this as an ad, and they click it, and they're like, oh, that thing was cool. Sure, I will buy one of those. And then it's like, no, actually, you need to, you know, leave this, go into a different app, find a play...like, it suddenly just puts a lot of the mental strain. But it's a lot. It's a cognitive load, greater than, as you said, just buying a T-shirt and telling what size you want. So, thinking through ways to really trim that down, shore up the amount of time people are spending on a cart. All that stuff has been fascinating. And then just, like, the different demographic kind of work that we're using, all the social ads platforms to kind of identify has been really interesting. It's still early. But, actually, like, Chris and I were just noticing...we were just talking right before this call. Like, we're actually starting to get, just in the last 12 hours, a bunch more, a bunch, but more people signing up to our email newsletter, probably in the last 12 hours that we have in the whole of last week. Yeah, I don't know, just even that sort of learning, it's like, oh, do people just need time with a thing, or they come back and they think about it? CHRIS: Yeah. Could these people be working on their playlists? That's a question that I have. MIKE: [chuckles] Yeah, me too. CHRIS: It's like, you know, I'm making a playlist to drop into this product. It's really interesting. And I think it gives insight to kind of, you know, how personal this product could be, that this is something that takes effort on the part of the consumer because they're making something to give or to keep for themselves, which is, I think, really interesting but definitely hard, too. DANNY: Yeah. And I also want to also clarify, like, Chris just kind of said it, like, especially for viewers and listeners, like, that's something that we've been hearing a lot from user interviews, too, right? Like, the language that they're using is, like, this is a thing that I care about. Like it's a representation of who I am. It's a representation of, like, the relationship that I have with this person that I'm going to be giving, you know, this gift to or this playlist to, specifically, like, people who feel, like, really passionate about these things. And, I mean, like, I did, too. Like, when I was first trying to, like, date, my wife, like, I spent, like, hours, hours trying to pick the coolest songs that I thought, you know, were like, oh, like, she's going to think I'm so cool because, like, I listen to these, like, super low-key indie rock bands, and, like, you know, so many more hours than she probably spent listening to it. But that's [laughs] kind of, like, honestly, what we heard a lot in a lot of these interviews, so... LINDSEY: Yeah, same. No, totally resonates. And I also went to the site this week, and I was like, oh damn, this is cool. Like, and immediately it was like, oh, you know, I've got these three, you know, music friends that we go to shows together. I'm like, oh, this would be so cool to get them, you know, playlists of, like, music we've seen together. So, you might see me in the cart. I won't abandon it. MIKE: Please. I would love that. CHRIS: Don't think about it too long if you could -- [laughter]. LINDSEY: I won't. I won't. CHRIS: I mean, I would say I'm really excited about having the site not only as a vehicle for selling some of these things but also as a vehicle for just honing our message. It's like another tool that we have in our arsenal. During the user interviews themselves, we were talking in abstract terms, and now we have something concrete that we can bounce off people, which is, I think, going to be a huge boon to our toolset as we continue to refine and define this product. MIKE: Yeah, that's a good point. LINDSEY: Yeah. You mentioned that they're signing up for, like, email updates. Do you have something you're sending out? Or are you kind of just creating a list? Totally fine, just building a list. MIKE: [laughs] No. CHRIS: It's a picture of Mike and I giving a big thumbs up. That's, yeah. [laughter] MIKE: No. But maybe...that was the thing; I was like, oh great, they're signing up. And I was like, gosh, they're signing up. Okay [laughter], now we got to write something. But we will. LINDSEY: Tips to making your playlist [crosstalk 19:11] playing your playlist -- MIKE: Yeah [crosstalk 19:13]. CHRIS: Right. And then also...tips to making your playlists. Also, we're advancing on the collectible side of things, too. We are, hopefully, going to have two pilot programs in place, one with a major label and one with a major artist. And we're really excited about that. LINDSEY: Okay. That's cool. I assume you can't tell us very much. What can you tell us? MIKE: Yeah. We won't mention names [chuckles] in case it just goes away, as these things sometimes do. But yeah, there's a great band who's super excited about these, been around for a long time, some good name recognition, and a very loyal fan base. They want to do sort of a collection of these. I think maybe we showed the little...I can't remember if we showed the little crates that we make or not, but basically, [inaudible 19:52] LINDSEY: The last time, yeah. MIKE: So, they want to sell online a package that's, you know, five or six Goodz in a crate, which I think will be cool and a great sort of sales experiment. And then there's a couple of artists that we're going to do an experiment with that's through their label that's more about tour...basically, giving things away on tour. So, they're going to do some giveaway fan club street team-style experiments with some of these on the road. So, first, it's ideal, provided both those things happen, because we definitely want to be exploring on the road and online stuff. And so, this kind of lets us do both at once and get some real learnings as to kind of how people...because we still don't know. We haven't really put these in people's hands yet. And it's just, like, are people scanning these a lot? Are they not? Is this sort of an object that's sitting on their shelf? Is it...yeah, it's just, like, there's so much we're going to learn once we get these into people's hands. LINDSEY: Do you have the infrastructure to sort of see how many times the cards are scanned? CHRIS: Mm-hmm. Yep, we do. MIKE: Yeah. So, we can see how many times each one is scanned, where they're scanned, that sort of thing. CHRIS: Kind of our next step, and something we were just talking about today with the thoughtbot team, is building out kind of what the backend will be for this, both for users and also for labels and artists. That it will allow them to go in and post updates to the Goodz, to allow them to use these for promotion as people, you know, scan into them to give them links to other sites related to the artists that they might be interested in before they move on to the actual musical playlist. So, that's kind of the next step for us. And knowing how users use these collectibles, both the kind of consumer Good and the artist collectibles that we were just talking about, will help inform how we build that platform. LINDSEY: Very cool. And right now, the online store itself that's built in Shopify? MIKE: Yeah. The homepage is Webflow that Kevin from the thoughtbot team really spearheaded in building for us. And then, yeah, the e-commerce is Shopify. LINDSEY: Y'all have been busy. MIKE: [laughs] LINDSEY: Is there anything else maybe that I haven't asked about yet that we should touch on in terms of updates or things going on with the product? MIKE: I don't know. I don't think so. I think, like Chris said, I mean, we're just...like, now that the site has kind of stood up and we're really switched over to kind of marketing and advertising on that, definitely digging into the backend of this kind of SaaS platform that's going to probably be a big focus for the rest of the, you know, the program, to be honest. Yeah, just some other things we can do on the next front that could eventually build into the backend that I think can be interesting. No, I guess [laughs] the short answer is no, nothing, like, substantial. Those are the big [crosstalk 22:26] LINDSEY: Yeah. Well, that was my next question, too, which is kind of like, what's next, or what's the next chunk of work? So, it's obviously lots more optimization and learning on the e-commerce platform, and then this other mega area, which is, you know, what does this look like as a SaaS solution? What's the vision? But also, where do we start? Which I'm sure, Danny, is a lot of work that you specialize in as far as, like, scoping how to approach these kinds of projects. DANNY: Yeah. And it's interesting because, I mean, we were just talking about this today. Like, part of it is, like, we can, like, really dig into, like, the e-commerce site and, like, really nailing it down to get it to the place where it's like, we're driving tons more traffic and also getting as low of a, like, cart abandonment rate as possible, right? But also, considering the fact that this is in the future, like, large-scale vision. And there's, like, also, like, we're starting to, I think, now iron out a lot of those, like, milestones where we're kind of like, okay, like, we got, like, a short-term vision, which is, like, the e-commerce site. We got a mid-term vision and a potential long-term vision. How do we validate this long-term vision while also still like, keeping this short-term vision moving forward? And, like, this mid-term vision is also going to, like, help potentially, either, like, steer us towards that long-term or maybe even, like, pivot us, like, into a completely different direction. So, like, where do you put your card, right? Like, how much energy and time do we put into, like, each of these areas? And that's kind of, like, the interesting part of this is starting to talk through that, starting to kind of prioritize, like, how we can maximize on our effort, like, our development and design effort so that things just kind of line up more naturally and organically for our future visioning, so... MIKE: Yeah. A lot of different things to juggle. I saw there was a question. Somebody asked what the URL is, but I don't seem to be able to [crosstalk 24:10]. LINDSEY: The same question as me. We got to drop the link for this thing. MIKE: Yeah, getthegoodz.com. CHRIS: That's G-O-O-D-Z. LINDSEY: Get in there, folks MIKE: Yeah, get [crosstalk 24:23]. LINDSEY: And let us know how it goes. MIKE: Yeah, please [laughs]. Any bugs? Let us know. Yeah. I think that those...yeah, I mean, it's a good point, Danny, in terms of juggling kind of the near-term and longer-term stuff. You know, it's a good kind of reminder our big focus, you know, in the new year is going to be fundraising, right? We're already talking to some investors and things like that. So, it's like, okay, yes, as you said, we could tweak the cart. We could tweak the e-commerce. Or, like, can we paint the big picture of what the longer-term version of this company is going to be in a way that makes it compelling for investment to come in so that there can be a long-term version of this company? And then we can build those things. So yeah, it's definitely a balance between the two. LINDSEY: Oh, also, just casual fundraising as well. [crosstalk 25:06] MIKE: Yeah, yeah. LINDSEY: [laughs] MIKE: But it's hard. It's like, you wake up in the morning. It's like, do I want to, like, write cold emails to investors? Or do I want to, like, look at Google Analytics and, like, tweak ad copy? That's actually more fun. So, yes. LINDSEY: Yeah, life of the founder, for sure. All right. So, that's getthegoodz (Goodz with a z) .com. Check it out. We'll tune in and see what happens with the e-commerce site, what happens with the SaaS planning the next time that we check in. But Chris, Mike, Danny, thank you so much for joining today and sharing what's been going on over the last few weeks: the good, the bad, the challenge, the cart abandonment. And, you know, best of luck to you over the next few weeks, and we'll be sure to check in and see how it's going. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions. Transcript:  LINDSEY: Thank you to our viewers and listeners. We are catching up once again with one of the startups going through the thoughtbot Incubator. My name is Lindsey Christensen. I'm joined today by Jordyn Bonds, who heads up the thoughtbot incubator, as well as our Co-Founders of Goodz, Chris Cerrito and Mike Rosenthal. Welcome, everybody. MIKE: Thanks, Lindsey. LINDSEY: Before we get started, before we put Chris and Mike back in the hot seat, at the top here, Jordyn, we have a special announcement for our viewers and listeners. JORDYN: Application window is open for session 1 of 2024, folks. You can go to thoughtbot.com/incubator and apply. And Chris and Mike can tell you how easy or hard applying was. MIKE: It was easy. It was totally easy. It's a very straightforward process. CHRIS: Yeah, it was way more straightforward than a lot of applications that we've dealt with in the past, for sure. JORDYN: Ha-ha. And if you've got a business idea that involves software but you haven't gotten anything out there yet, come talk to us. We will help you make sure that it's a good idea and that there are people who might buy it, and maybe get you even a little further than that. MIKE: We actually have a friend who's considering applying. I'll tell him applications are open. He's worried his idea is not big enough to actually be a business idea, so we'll see. CHRIS: Even the process of doing the application was really helpful for us because it helped us get aligned on exactly what we were doing, yeah. JORDYN: I love that. And I found that to be true when I was a founder applying to some of these things, in particular, applying for an SBIR grant was one of the most challenging things that we did, but it was so productive. I was so annoyed by it at the time, and then I cribbed from that thing. It actually sort of forced us to make a business plan [laughs], and then, basically, we ran it, and it was great [laughs]. CHRIS: Yeah. I think that was, for us, that was our point where we were like, "Is this idea fleshed out enough to move forward?" And we were like, "Yes, it is. Let's go. Let's do this." JORDYN: So, use the application as a forcing function, everybody. It will help you clarify your thinking. LINDSEY: Yeah. Jordyn, what would you say to Mike's friend who's questioning if their idea is big enough? How do you respond to that sentiment? JORDYN: That is a fascinating sentiment because I feel like so much more often, I am trying to help founders with the opposite problem where they think this thing is so big that they are not thinking about what step 1 is going to look like. They're just, like, in 10 years, we're going to be the next Amazon, and I'm like, "Maybe [laughter]. Let me help you figure out how to get to that giant vision." So, I don't come across the "Is this big enough to be a business?" question as often. And, I don't know, what would I say? I guess I need the details. LINDSEY: It could be a perfect fit MIKE: It could be. JORDYN: It could be a perfect fit. LINDSEY: In a way, that's what you're answering, right? MIKE: Right. LINDSEY: In some of this work. MIKE: That is true. So, yeah, you guys would certainly...just thinking through the process we've gone through the last two months, it would definitely help them flesh that out. LINDSEY: Which is a great segue. MIKE: Great segue. LINDSEY: Chris and Mike, we're actually coming up to the end of your incubator time. CHRIS: It's so sad. LINDSEY: Can you believe it? MIKE: It's gone by really fast. I mean, eight weeks is not a long time, but it has gone by very, very fast. CHRIS: It felt like a very long time in the middle of it. MIKE: [laughs] CHRIS: But now that it's over, it feels like a blink that it's coming to a close. MIKE: I don't know. It's funny. I think we had some note in our retro today that was like, maybe the very end of the year is not the best time to do an accelerator just because you have, like, the holidays kind of jumping in here in the end. So, that might have helped make it feel like a... I feel like the end of the year always feels like a rush anyway. So, I think just life gets a little bit busier this time of year, too, but yeah. CHRIS: Yeah, my gingerbread man decorating game is, like, really down this season because we've been so busy. Tragic. LINDSEY: Chris, can you remind our viewers and listeners who might not be familiar what was the idea that you and Mike have been exploring with the incubator or, like, what did you come in with? CHRIS: So, with Goodz, what we're trying to do is make little, physical collectibles objects that connect back to the digital content that a user loves. The idea being that today, we are awash in these digital files, links, so many things on our desktops, on our phones, on our devices, and it's really hard to tell which part of those are really, really important to us. So, by giving them a presence in the physical world, that denotes that's something that's really important, worth keeping, worth sharing, and showing off to your friends and family. And to start this off, mostly because Mike and I are both kind of music nerds, we're starting off with a music focus, but at some point, we're hoping to move into other realms, too. LINDSEY: And a lot of the incubator, as repeat listeners will know, is focused on really kind of evolving user interviews all the way through and narrowing in on, you know, a core audience, a core market. Mike, how has that evolution been? I think the last time we chatted was around three weeks ago. What has the latest iteration of user interviews looked like in terms of the people you're talking to and even what you're asking them? MIKE: It's been a really fascinating process. I mean, I'm trying to think of where we were exactly the last time we talked to you, but I think we'd probably just launched the e-commerce site that we had been experimenting with putting up. LINDSEY: Yeah, exactly. MIKE: And so, and we really then started cranking on user interviews kind of once that was live. And so, moving away from the conceptual and more into like, "Okay, share your screen. Here's the link. Like, tell me what you think is going on here," and really sort of getting users who had never, you know, never heard our pitch, never been involved with us to sort of try to wrap their heads around what we are and what we're doing just based on that website and trying to sort of make iterative changes based on that. You know, for me, because I had not done user interviews very much in the past, like, it's very tempting, like, you get sort of 1 note from 1 person in 1 interview, and you're like, oh, we need to change this word. That word didn't make any sense to them, or this thing needs to be blue instead of pink. I think, for me, it was like, all right, how do we kind of synthesize this data in a responsible way? And it emerged naturally, which, I mean, Jordyn and all thoughtbot folks said that it would, but you sort of started hearing the same things again and again. And we never really got to a place where, like, you heard the exact same things from everyone. But there were enough buckets, I feel like, where we're like, okay, like, this part really isn't making that much sense to people, or, like, we do really need to, you know, structure this differently to convey. So, it was a bunch of that kind of work over the last three weeks or so and sort of just getting a sense of like, are we conveying our message? It's hard. I mean, it's a new, like, we're not the only people making physical products with NFC chips in them, but it is not the most common, like, product. Like, it is kind of a new category out there. And so, really trying to understand just right off the bat, do people get it? And you get wildly different answers [laughs] as to whether they get it or they don't, which has been fascinating, too. JORDYN: Yeah. [crosstalk 7:12] LINDSEY: Chris or Jordyn, anything to add there? JORDYN: Yeah. You get the best, like, bootcamp in the don't overreact to a single user interview experience in some ways because we [laughs]...it would literally be like, interview in the morning someone says this thing. Interview in the afternoon, someone says the exact opposite thing [laughter]. And you're like, okay [laughs], like, which one of these things are we going to respond to, if either of them? CHRIS: Yeah. It's hard. As somebody with, like, a strong desire to please, it's hard to reign yourself in and want to change things immediately, but it definitely makes sense to do so in the long run. MIKE: But yeah, but, I mean, like I said, I do feel like it kind of came down to buckets. It's like, okay, you're that. I can, like, categorize you with all those other people and you with all those other people. And yeah, I hear you. I'm like, yeah, it's tempting to want to please them all. But I think with this one, we're fighting hard to be like...or we sort of have a philosophy that this product is emphatically not for everyone because, at the end of the day, you get a lot of people who are like, "Wait, you're just putting a link to a streaming playlist on a physical object? Why don't I just text someone the link?" And sometimes that breaks down by age group, like, 18-year-olds being like, "What are you talking about, old man? LINDSEY: [laughs] MIKE: Like, why the hell would I do that? It makes no sense." But it sort of skews all over the age ranges. But then there'll be other people who are 18 or 20 years old who are like, "Wow, I never had cassettes when I was growing up," or "I never got to make, you know, mixtapes or CD-Rs for people." And like, you know, so it's, yeah, it's about finding the people who are the early adopters. As Jordyn has said a lot, it's like, we need to find those early adopters and, like, make them love us, and then other people will come later. CHRIS: I mean, some of the most gratifying moments, I think, are there's been some interviews where people have been so excited that after the interview, they've gone and purchased our products, which is just, like, the coolest feeling ever. LINDSEY: Wow. MIKE: Yeah, it's pretty cool. LINDSEY: Are you open to sharing a little bit more about what those buckets or what those segments look like? CHRIS: I mean, I think there's folks who outright just get it almost immediately, and I think those people tend to be hardcore music collectors, hardcore music fans, Jordyn and Mike, please feel free to jump in if you disagree with any of this. They just get it right off the bat. Then I think there's, in my experience, there's another bucket of people who are a little more hesitant, and maybe they wouldn't buy it, but they seemed really excited about the idea of getting one as a gift, which is really interesting. They're like, "I don't know if I'd buy this, but I'd really like to have one." And then there is another segment, like, which Mike just mentioned, of folks who just don't see the value in this whatsoever, which is totally fair. MIKE: Yeah, totally. I think it's also...I see it almost as, like, a matrix. There's, like, desirability, and, like, technical understanding because people were like, "I technically understand what this is, and I do not want it in my life." Or like, "I get what this is and, oh my God, I have to have that," or like, "I don't really understand what you're talking about, but, man, I love physical stuff. Like, sure I want..." you know, it's like, it goes across those two planes, I think. JORDYN: I will say that it, I think you alluded to this before, Mike, but, like, we're going to run a whole analysis of...because we did a ton of interviews, and we haven't actually done that, like, sort of data-driven thing of like, are there trends in the demographics somewhere that we're not getting? Because the pattern has not been there. Like, someone will talk to an 18-year-old, you know, at 1:00 p.m. who is just, like, "Why on earth would I ever want this?" And then I, like, you know, will talk to a 21-year-old who is like, "I love this." And it's like, why? Like, this is the answer. The thing we're trying to get out now is, like, what is the difference between those two people? It's not a demographic thing that we can see from the outside, so what is it instead? But with consumer stuff like this, often, you don't necessarily...you don't need that in such great detail when you're starting. You just kind of, like, throw it out there and see who grabs it, and then you start to build sort of cohorts around that. And that is kind of what these interviews have shown us is that there are people who will grab it, and that was part of what we were trying to validate. Are there people who Mike and Chris do not know personally who will, like, get this and be psyched about it immediately? And that is, you know, check unequivocally true. Like Chris said, there are people that we were, you know, that we had recruited on this user interviews platform [chuckles] who then just turned around and bought the product because they were so psyched about it. One of the guys I interviewed was like, "Can I invest in your company right now?" Like, during the interview, and I was like, "Maybe?" [laughs] CHRIS: There was, like, another person who wanted to work for us immediately... JORDYN: Yes, great. CHRIS: Which was really interesting and kind of awesome. JORDYN: Yeah, they're like, "Are you hiring?" You're just like, okay. So, it's validating that there are people all over that spectrum. Like, where those trends lie, though, which is, I think, what you were asking, Lindsey, not as straightforward and in a fascinating way. So, we still have a little more, like, number crunching to do on that, and we may have an answer for you later. LINDSEY: That's exciting. Exactly. I'm curious: what are the connecting dots between the folks who are really into it, and how might that impact how you approach the business? MIKE: Yeah, it's hard. It's definitely going to be a niche to start. And so, we got to figure out kind of got to crack the code on how we find those people. LINDSEY: And, Mike, I think you had also mentioned last time that, you know, you or both of you have a network kind of in the music industry, and you've been floating the idea past some people there. Have you been having more of those conversations over the last few weeks, too? MIKE: We have, yeah. Well, so yeah, we've had a couple more just kind of straight-up pitch calls versus like, "Hey, there's this cool thing we're doing," and having those people be like, "Cool. Let's do a pilot." And so, they're ordering, you know, 500 or 1,000 units at a time, which is rad. LINDSEY: Whoa. MIKE: For the first...yeah. LINDSEY: Okay, very cool. MIKE: Yeah. The first two or three of those should happen in January or maybe early February, but yeah, those are done and in production and arriving soon. So, that's really exciting with some cool bands. We won't say the names in case it doesn't [laughs] work out, but it does look like it's going to work out. LINDSEY: And so, it's specific bands that are creating merch for their fans. MIKE: Yeah, yeah. So, we're working with one artist manager on a band that he manages, and then we're working with a record label. And they're going to try with a couple of smaller artists. And so, yeah, it's actually really good for us. One is going to be straight-up sales, most likely, and it's, like, selling these things. And the other ones will be given away as kind of promo items on tour artists, which is also a really interesting use case for us, too, that we're excited about and using them as a way to sort of get email addresses and, like, fans engaged and stuff, so... And then yeah, then I had another conversation, and they want to talk about doing some pilots. So far, like, that side of things is going great. We're sort of 3 for 4 in terms of initial calls leading to pilots right off the bat, which is kind of unheard of from [laughs] my experience. LINDSEY: Yeah, I'd say so. No, a lot of very good signals. MIKE: Really good signals. But then we were able to turn some of those into user interview conversations, actually, as well over the course of the last couple of weeks, which has been really helpful, like, talking to manager and label-type people about what they might want out of a software product that is associated with this because we're not just thinking about making physical products but sort of coupling that with an online toolset. And that part, we haven't gotten as far along as we did with the direct-to-consumer e-commerce, but it's been fascinating. LINDSEY: So, what has been happening with the online shop? As you noted the last time we talked, it was just a baby less than a week-old Shopify site getting, you know, some first hits of people going around maybe putting things in their basket. I'm sure a lot has happened over the last few weeks. What kind of work, what kind of insights have you seen around the site? CHRIS: We've been, I mean, we've been selling stuff at a slow but steady pace. It's been great because it's enough to, you know, because our product really straddles the line between physical and digital; there's a lot of physical aspects to this that we need to figure out and kind of the level of orders that we've been getting have been really...it's, like, the perfect number to think about fulfillment issues, things like what kind of package does this go in? How do we mail this out? Things along those lines, just very basic, practical questions that needed to be answered. But yeah, it's been great. We actually, I mean, we hit our goal for the amount of these that we wanted to get in people's hands before Christmas, which is pretty awesome. And we continue now with the lessons learned. I think our plan is to try and make a push for Valentine's Day because these seem like they would be a great Valentine's Day present: make a playlist; share it with your loved one; share it with a friend; share it with somebody you don't like at all. Who knows? LINDSEY: [laughs] CHRIS: But yeah, that's kind of our next sales push, we think. LINDSEY: The hate playlist. CHRIS: [inaudible 15:40] hate playlist. MIKE: Yeah, perfect. Real passive-aggressive. CHRIS: Just Blue Monday, like, by New Order, like, 14 times. LINDSEY: [laughs] Yeah, every song is just like a sub-tweet... MIKE: [laughs] LINDSEY: About something they've done and [inaudible 15:53] Have you updated the site? Like, how do you decide what gets updated on the site? [laughter] Everyone laughed. MIKE: It was a little haphazard, I would say, there for a minute. But -- CHRIS: We got the site up very, very quickly. And from my perspective, I've been dealing a lot with the physical side of things, just getting great product photos up there, which is, like, something that thoughtbot has actually been super helpful with. You know, everybody on the team is starting to submit photos of their Goodz in the real world and using their Goodz, which is great. And we continued to update the site with that but also making sure our text made sense, refining copy in response to things that people said during user interviews. The checkout process, the process of adding the URL that we point the Good to that, we did a bunch of experimentation there based on what people were saying during user interviews. So, it has been a little haphazard, but we have made a bunch of changes. LINDSEY: Jordyn, has there been any experiment, like, structured experimentation around the site or how you're getting people to the site? JORDYN: Mike actually did a little bit of ad funnel work that I don't think we've, like, even remotely scratched the surface of. So, I wish I could say that was conclusive, but I think we've found a little bit more...here are plenty of sales that are from people that nobody here knows. MIKE: True. JORDYN: So, people are finding out about this somehow [laughs]. But I think it's a little bit, like, word-of-mouth sort of chain of events is our sense so far. I wanted to say, though, about the site, we did get what Chris was saying about, like, this experiment was, in part, about fulfillment and figuring out how fulfillment would work and packaging, and not just messaging and not just closing the sale with consumers, but also, just, like, how do you fulfill these? But one of the really fun things we've managed to do in the last, since we talked last time, which I can't even believe...I feel like this wasn't even a gleam in our eyes for this project, but we managed to get out, like, stood up and out the door, and working in production in the last few weeks is a way for folks to actually assign the URL to their mixtape themselves. Previously, the plan had just been for Chris and Mike to do that, which is fine but a little bit unscalable, right? CHRIS: That was a huge dream or, like, that was high on our wish list. And we didn't think we'd get to it. And it's been pretty amazing that we have, yeah. JORDYN: Yeah, so that was one thing that is an update to the site. So, then we had to do a little bit of, like, micro iterating, on, like, the messaging around that. Like, how do you communicate to people? This is, like, a little bit of an abstract challenge, right? Like, here's this object. It's going to point to a digital thing. How do you tell the physical object which digital thing it's pointing to [laughs]? So, a lot of our recent interviewing has been to sort of get inside the mind of the consumer about how they're thinking about that and how we can best communicate that to them. So that's been a lot of the, like, recent iteration is getting that mechanism stood up and then the messaging around it. CHRIS: It's also really cool because it adds to the utility of the object itself in the sense that now our Goodz, when a user gets one, they can add a URL to their Good themselves, but they can also change that URL. So, it's much more malleable. JORDYN: Which is something that in one of our early user interviews was, like, a hot request [laughs], and we were like, "Someday, someday." And it's, you know, I should actually go back to her and be like, "Someday is today." [laughter] MIKE: Well, yeah, and just as Chris was saying, it just makes it so much easier to ship these out without having to manually load them, and you could sell them, and yeah, retail outlets, like, it just opens up a lot of opportunities for us for them. LINDSEY: And Mike mentioned that some of the, like, kind of future looking aspirations for the solution are, you know, how might you figure out the B2B, like, SaaS aspect of it? Jordyn, is that something that's been explored at all at this point, or is it early? JORDYN: That experiment I just described is actually sort of the link between the two projects. It sort of proves the concept and proves the value in some ways, and it has given us a little bit more visibility into sort of how we're going to execute some of this technical stuff. Like, how easy, how difficult is it going to be? These little experiments all build your confidence around your ability to do those things and what it's going to look like. And so, this experiment absolutely feeds into that question. But I would say it was really this week where we got to have a really fun brainstorming sort of blue sky conversation about that that I don't think would have been nearly as both creative and blue sky or rooted in reality as it was if we hadn't done these experiments and hadn't talked to so many...we had so much work...we could participate in a conversation like that so much more confidently and creatively because all of us had a lot more shared context. So, we really got to dream big, like, what is a SaaS platform built around these physical objects? And I don't want to, you know, I'm not going to give it away at this moment because we had a lot of, like, really cool ideas. It's one part talking to the B2B customer, which, you know, you mentioned earlier, getting what their pain points are, and what they're looking for, what they need, but then also dreaming big about now we understand the technology a little bit more and how it feels to use it. What does that unlock in our brains? The analogy I used in that conversation and that I use all the time is like, the users of Twitter invented hashtags, right? Twitter did not invent hashtags. And so, hey, everybody out there, newsflash: users invented hashtags, not Twitter or something else, if you didn't realize that Twitter was where those things kind of emerged. But there was just a user behavior that was happening in the wild, and Twitter was just very good at making that easier for them, looking at that and being like, "Oh, hey, is this a thing you all want to do? Here, we'll make that even more useful for you." And it was part of Twitter's early success that they were able to do that. And so, that was the kind of thinking we were trying to employ here is, like, now that we have these objects and we understand a little bit more how it feels to use them, you get these second order effects. What does that then make us think of? What is then possible to us that we wouldn't have been able to dream of previously because we didn't quite get it? So, that was really happening this week. LINDSEY: So, as the incubator time wraps up, what are the kind of final activities or deliverables, one, that Goodz wants and you know that they're going to get? What are the parting gifts as we send you out into the next phase? MIKE: Yeah, well, loads of stuff. I mean, we're getting all that code that [SP] Guillermo and the guys worked on to let people set their own playlist settings. And we've got that up in a GitHub repository now. And we've got a bunch of great design work that's all being handed over, like Chris was saying, product shots that a bunch of the team members were taking, synthesizing all the user interviews. We're actually sort of making some kind of final reports on those, so it's kind of more usable, actionable data for us. The whole website, you know, that didn't exist before. And that will sort of continue to grow as the entire website for Goodz moving forward. I don't know. That's a lot. What else was there, Chris? CHRIS: As a result of all that, I mean, one of the things I'm most excited about is now we have a small user base who actually has the physical products that, hopefully, we can get them to answer questions. That's huge for what's coming next. Starting the path towards the SaaS platform, too, it's really helped narrow our scope and think about, you know, how to make that successful or if it will be successful. LINDSEY: Yeah, that sounded like a big discussion this week that I know has been on your minds from the beginning. Wait, the last time, also, you said you were starting to get emails, too. Have you emailed anyone yet, or are you still holding on to them? MIKE: Oh. No, I still haven't sent a newsletter out [laughs], actually, but we have Mailchimp set up. Yeah, no, we've got a good kind of core of our, yeah, early folks on there. We'll start getting a newsletter out with some sort of regularity. We're building up the socials very slowly just focusing on Instagram mostly right now and trying to get back into that game. It's been a long time since I've had to do kind of social marketing stuff. And so, it's a lot of work, as it turns out, but we'll get all that cooking. I think this was just such a sprint, working with the thoughtbot folks and trying to get all this stuff done. Before the end of the year, now we can sort of take a breath and start engaging folks in the new year. LINDSEY: Yeah. Well, so, do you know what you want to do next or what the next phase looks like? Are you going to do fundraising? MIKE: We're certainly going to continue to have some fundraising conversations. We've had some conversations emerge over the last, you know, since we've been in thoughtbot, again, not the greatest time of year to try to be raising a round. But we're also not, like, desperately, urgently needing to do that right this second. I think, you know, part of it is the fundraising landscape, you know, doesn't look amazing. And we're still sort of building out a lot of traction, and sort of every week, there's some new, exciting thing, or we've got some new, big artists who wants to do something. So, I think, in some ways, to the extent that we can bootstrap for a little while, I think we will, yeah. So, we will focus on...I'd like to get back to focusing on, like, B2B sales. I'd like to hit the ground in January and just start talking to a bunch of music industry folks. And thinking ahead a little bit, sort of Q1 and Q2, like, what are the big tentpole events? You know, you got South by Southwest coming up in March. You got Record Store Day in April, or whenever it is. But, you know, there's, like, a bunch of those sorts of things that it's like, oh, let's not let those things suddenly be tomorrow. Like, right now, they're all still two or three/four months out. Like, let's make sure we're queued up for those things and see what happens. And Jordyn has been giving really good advice on the fundraising side where it's just like, just keep getting cool stuff like that and just do almost like little drip campaigns with funders who aren't maybe giving you the time of day or think it's too early, and just kind of keep going back to them. Like, the best excuse to go back to funders is like, "Hey, we just closed this new thing. We just launched this new thing. We just got this thing working. Hey, we're launching with this major band," Like, enough of those happen, and I think the fundraising will happen more organically. It's a strategy. CHRIS: I think we're really lucky in the fact that, you know, now, at this point, we're not talking about vapourware, you know, like, these are actual things that actually exist that, like, anybody could go onto our site right now and buy, which is awesome. And because of that, the product's going to continue to evolve, and, hopefully, our sales record will continue to evolve, too. LINDSEY: Amazing. Well, that feels like a good place to wrap up, maybe. Are you going to hang around in our incubator Slack, the thoughtbot incubator Slack for all our past founders? MIKE: Yes. Emphatically, yes. LINDSEY: Okay. We're holding you to it then [laughs]. CHRIS: I'm excited about that. We met with the other founders yesterday for the first time, and it was a really great and interesting conversation. It was cool seeing how diverse all these projects are and how folks are working on things that we had no idea about and how we're working on stuff that they have no idea about, and it was really great. It felt like a good cross-pollination. MIKE: Agreed. LINDSEY: That's awesome to hear. Jordyn, any final thoughts? JORDYN: [inaudible 26:58] out there listening and watching and want to join this community of founders [laughs], don't you want to have office hours with Chris and Mike? LINDSEY: All right, thoughtbot.com/incubator. You can apply for session 1 of the 2024 incubator program. And yeah, you two, if you have more recommendations, referrals, definitely send them our way. Chris, Mike, Jordyn, thank you so much once again for joining and catching us up on all the exciting developments for Goodz. MIKE: Thank you. LINDSEY: A lot of really cool milestones. JORDYN: I got to say, so much good stuff. And like, you know, just wrapping it all up almost diminishes the impact of any single one of those things that we just talked about, but it's, like, pretty amazing. People out there, apply to the incubator but also go buy yourself a Goodz mixtape. It's cool with playlists on it. MIKE: It's a good point. JORDYN: Give it to your BFF. Come on. LINDSEY: Getthegoodz.com. MIKE: Getthegoodz.com. Awesome. LINDSEY: All right. Thanks, Chris and Mike. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions. Special Guests: Chris Cerrito, Jordyn Bonds, and Mike Rosenthal.

After so long with Sasha The Princess Of Darkness and our Godfather finally get back in the podcasting saddle to have their usual casual conversion in this first of 2 brand new episodes this week. In this episode while getting caught up in the pre show they talk about mental health, men's mental health and touch on sites like OnlyFans. Wile in the main show they touch on the Godfather's experience at promoting at Ravenwood Faire, before going into the drama that Don't eat the Gum told about how Wacky Wix got band from a horror convention due to drama they didn't start, how it was similar with the SSSniperwolf and Jacksfilms drama that happened. Plus our Godfather and Sasha could not resist talking about the internet's favorite lolcow, Chris Chan, returning to the internet and how Boogie2988 seemingly overshadowed it, and a whole lot more!  Plus say tuned after the repost for possible updates, and more like the Pokimane cookie drama that's unfolding and the black Friday deals that Playstation and Xbox are having!    1) Did you know you can donate to our show to help us to get mystery packs and kickstarters to do unboxings, offset the costs in getting new(ish) equipment, or go to cons by using this GoFundMe link: https://gofund.me/d30ee486 2) Help out our O.G. co-host Big Candy by getting yourself some wearable merch by going here: http://tee.pub/lic/WidsgeTHv7A 3) We just got partnered with Dubby Energy! (think G Fuel) So head on over to https://bit.ly/3sNwEfq and use lcmpodcast at checkout for 10% off your order. 4) We Also have a Patreon if you wish to help us that way. If you do just had here: https://www.patreon.com/TheLongCoatMafiaPodcast   Where to find Sasha the Princess of Darkness: Her YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/sashatheprincessofdarkness Follow her on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SashaThePrincessOfDarkness/ Follow her on Twitter here: https://twitter.com/PrncessODrkness   Don't forget if you wish to find out more about us and wish to listen to our audio podcast you may do so by following the links below   Our Standard Links To Find Our Show And Social Media: Our Website: https://thelongcoatmafia.podbean.com Our Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/thelongcoatmafiapodcast Our Twitter: https://twitter.com/longcoatmafia Our Email: longcoatmafia@gmail.com Instagram: https://instagram.com/longcoatmafia/ Our Twitch Channel: https://www.twitch.tv/longcoatmafiapod Our TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lcmpodcast Our Youtube Channel: https://tinyurl.com/lcmpodyoutube Our Amazon Wish List: https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/1U413BUZEYXGO   We are also found on Apple Podcasts ( http://tinyurl.com/lcmpitunes ), Goodpods: ( https://tinyurl.com/Lcmpgoodpod ), Google Podcasts ( https://tinyurl.com/lcmpgooglepod  ), Spotify ( https://tinyurl.com/tlcmpspotify  ) and where podcasts are found.

A client recently asked me "How can I look like Chris Bumstead?"  Chris Bumstead recently won the Mr Olympia Classic Physique title for the 5th year in a row!  He has an amazing muscular but also aesthetic physique!  If you'd like to develop the same body aesthetic for yourself... how can you do so?  In today's podcast I discuss what areas you should focus on and the specific of each area so that you can develop YOUR best muscular and balanced physique!

It will take almost 90 million votes to win in 2024 and Mike Pence, Chris Christy, Nikki Haley and DeSantis somehow think they can do it. The only reason they are running is to hurt Donald Trump, it's cowardly and completely anti the average American who NEEDS Donald Trump to win. Hit subscribe everywhere you get your shows and never miss an episode https://www.thematthewdarkshow.com/ --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/matthew-dark/support

Ranking this show on our list of priorities + Cam really doesn't like Chris Christie + Getting our listeners' phone #

Big O talks to Tua and Dolphins Fans

Big O talks to Tua and Dolphins Fans

On tonight's episode of The Triumphant Shadows Podcast:  Huggy and Fortune discuss the latest rumors concerning actor Jonathan Major losing roles in a series of upcoming Disney films.  This report comes only days after Major's was accused of a domestic violence incident.   Midnight Edge and other media outlet  are reporting that Major's will soon be removed from his most promising contract: Staring as lead villain in the upcoming Avengers movies.   Is Majors at fault? Or is there a more serious conspiracy at play?

Chris is a minister and music producer. His wife Jamila makes video content for Christian wives.

Chris hits on a passion point this week and talks with Newton, Iowa native Blake Anderson, who is the marketing director and play-by-play voice for Tony Stewart's All-Star Sprint Car Series. Like Chris, Blake is a former Keith Murphy intern and actually worked under Chris Hassel as well. Learn about Blake's path to where he is now and more in this fun sit-down. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, we are talking about the emotional toll of OCD.  Kim: Welcome back, everybody. This week is going to include three of some of my most favorite people on this entire planet. We have the amazing Chris Trondsen, Alegra Kastens, and Jessica Serber—all dear friends of mine—on the podcast. This is the first time I've done an episode with more than one guest.  Now, this was actually a presentation that the four of us did at multiple IOCDF conferences. It was a highly requested topic. We were talking a lot about trauma and OCD, shame and OCD, the stigma of OCD, guilt and OCD, and the depression and grief that goes with OCD. After we presented it, it actually got accepted to multiple different conferences, so we all agreed, after doing it multiple times and having such an amazing turnout, that we should re-record the entire conversation and have it on the podcast. I'm so grateful for the three of them. They all actually join me on Super Bowl Sunday—I might add—to record this episode. I am going to really encourage you to drop down into your vulnerable self and listen to what they have to say, and note the validation and acknowledgment that they give throughout the episode. It is a deep breath. That's what this episode is.  Before we get into this show, let me just remind you again that we are recording live the Overcoming Depression course this weekend. On March 11th, March 18th, and March 25th, at 9:00 AM Pacific Standard Time, I will be recording the Overcoming Depression course. I am doing it live this time. If you're interested in coming on live as I record it, you can ask your questions, you can work along with me. There'll be workbooks. I'll be giving you a lot of strategies and a lot of tools to help you overcome depression.  If you're interested, go to CBTSchool.com/depression. We will be meeting again, three dates in March, starting tomorrow, the 11th of March, at 9:00 AM Pacific Time. You will need to sign up ahead of time. But if for any reason you miss one of them, you can watch the replay. The replays will be uploaded. You'll have unlimited on-demand access to any of them. You'll get to hear me answering people's questions. This is the first time I've ever recorded a course live. I really felt it was so important to do it live because I knew people would have questions and I wanted to address them step by step in a manageable, bite-sized way. Again, CBTSchool.com/depression, and I will see you there. Let's get over to this incredible episode.  Again, thank you, Chris Trondsen. Thank you, Alegra Kastens. Thank you, Jessica Serber. It is an honor to call you my friend and my colleague. Enjoy everybody.  Kim: Welcome. This has been long, long. I've been waiting so long to do this and I'm so thrilled. This is my first time having multiple guests at once. I have three amazing guests. I'm going to let them introduce themselves. Jessica, would you like to go first? Jessica: I'm Jessica Serber. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I have a practice specializing in the treatment of OCD and related anxiety and obsessive-compulsive spectrum disorders in Los Angeles. I'm super passionate about working with OCD because my sister has OCD and I saw her get her life back through treatment. So, I have so much hope for everyone in this treatment process. Kim: Fantastic. So happy to have you. Chris? Chris: Hi everyone. My name is Chris Trondsen. I am also a licensed marriage family therapist here in Orange County, California at a private group practice. Besides being a therapist, I also have OCD myself and body dysmorphic disorder, both of which I specialize in treatment. Because of that, I'm passionate about advocacy. I am one of the lead advocates for the International OCD Foundation, as well as on their board and the board of OCD Southern California, as well as some leadership on some of their special interest groups. Kind of full circle for me, have OCD and now treat it. Kim: Amazing. Alegra? Alegra: My name is Alegra Kastens and I am a licensed therapist in the states of California and New York. I'm the founder of the Center for OCD, Anxiety and Eating Disorders. Like Chris, I have lived experience with OCD, anxiety, eating disorders, and basically everything, so I'm very passionate. We got a lot going on up here. I'm really passionate about treating OCD, educating, advocating for the disorder, and that is what propelled me to pursue a career as a therapist and then also to build my online platform, @obsessivelyeverafter on Instagram. GRIEF AND OCD Kim: Amazing. We have done this presentation before, actually, multiple times over the years. I feel like an area that I want to drop into as deeply as we can today to really look at the emotional toll of having and experiencing and recovering from OCD. We're going to have a real conversation style here. But first, we'll follow the format that we've used in the past. Let's first talk about grief and OCD because I think that that seems to be a lot of the reason we all came together to present on this. Alegra, would you talk specifically about some of the losses that result from having OCD? I know this actually was inspired by an Instagram post that you had put out on Instagram, so do you want to share a little bit about what those emotional losses are?  Alegra: For sure. I think that number one, what a lot of people with OCD experience is what feels like a loss of identity. When OCD really attacks your values, attacks your core as a human being, whether it's pedophile obsession, sexual orientation obsessions, harm obsessions, you really start to grieve the person that you once thought you were. Of course, nothing has actually changed about you, but because of OCD, it really feels like it has. In addition to identity, there's lost relationships, there's lost time, lost experiences. For me, I dropped out of my bachelor's degree and I didn't get the four years of undergrad that a lot of people experienced. I mean, living with OCD is one of the most debilitating, difficult things to do. And that means, if you're fighting this battle and trying to survive, you probably are missing out on life and developmental milestones. Kim: Right. Was that the case for you too, Chris? Chris: Yeah. I actually host a free support group for families and one of the persons with OCD was speaking yesterday talking about how having OCD was single-handedly the most negatively impactful experience in his life. He is dealt with a lot of loss. I feel the same way. It's just not something you could shake off and recover from in the sense of just pretending nothing happened. I know for me, the grief was hard. I mean, I had mapped out what I thought my life was going to look like. I think my first stage of grief, because I think it became two stages, my first, like Alegra said, was about the loss. I always wanted to go to college and be around people in my senior year, like make friends and things like that. It's just my life became smaller and smaller. I became housebound. I missed out on normal activities, and six years of my life were pretty much spent alone.  I think what Alegra also alluded to, which was the second layer of grief, was less about the things that I lost, but who I became. I didn't recognize myself in those years with OCD. I think it's hard to explain to somebody else what it's like to literally not live as yourself. I let things happen to me or I did things that I would never do in the mind state that I am in now. I was always such a brave and go-for-it kind of person and confident and I just became a shell of myself. I grieve a lot of the years lost, a lot of the things I always wanted to do, and places I wanted to go. And then I grieve the person I became because it was nothing I ever thought I could become. Kim: Jessica, will you speak also to just the events that people miss out on? I don't know if you want to speak about what you see with your clients or even with your sibling, like just the milestones that they missed and the events they missed. Jessica: Yeah, absolutely. My sister was really struggling the most with her OCD during middle school and high school. Those are such formative years, to begin with. I would say, she was on the fortunate end of the spectrum of being diagnosed relatively early on in her life. I mean, she definitely had symptoms from a very, very young age, but still, getting that diagnosis in middle school is so much before a lot of people get that. I mean, I work with people who aren't diagnosed until their twenties, thirties, and sometimes even later. Different things that most adolescents would go through she didn't.  Speaking to the identity piece that Alegra brought up, a big part of her identity was being a sports fan. She was a diehard Clippers fan, and that's how everyone knew her. It was like her claim to fame. She didn't even want to go to Clippers games. My dad was trying to get tickets to try to get her excited about something to get out of the house. She missed certain events in high school because it was too anxiety-provoking to go and it was more comforting to know she could stay in the safety of the home. Their experiences all throughout the lifespan, I think that can be impacted. Even if you're not missing out on them entirely, a lot of people talk about remembering those experiences as tainted by the memories of OCD, even if they got to go experience them. Kim: Right. For me, as a clinician, I often hear two things. One is the client will say something to the likes of, “I've lost my way. I was going in this direction and I've completely lost the path I was supposed to go on.” I think that is a full grief process. I think we've associated grief with the death of people, but it's not. It's deeper than that and it's about like you're talking about, identity and events and occasions.  The other thing that I hear is—actually, we can go totally off script here in terms of we've talked about this in the past separately—people think that once they're recovered, they will live a really happy life and that they'll feel happy now. Like, “Oh, the relief is here, I've recovered.”  But I think there is a whole stage of grief that follows during recovery and then after recovery. Do you have any thoughts on that, anybody?  Alegra: Well, yeah. I think it reminds me a lot of even my own experience, but my client's experiences of when you recover, there tends to be grief about life before OCD. If I'm being perfectly honest, my life will just never be what it was before OCD, and it's different and wonderful in so many ways that maybe it wouldn't be if I didn't have OCD. But I'm laughing because when you were like, “I'm going to mark my calendar in July because you're probably going to have a relapse,” then I have to deal with it every six months. My brain just goes off for like two weeks. I don't know why it happens. It's just my OCD brain, and there's grief associated with that. I can go for six months and I have some intrusive thoughts, but it doesn't really do anything to me to write back in it for two weeks. That's something I have to deal with and I have to get to that acceptance place in the grieving process. I'm not going to have the brain that I did before OCD when I didn't have a single unwanted sexual thought. That just isn't happening. I think we think that we're going to get to this place after recovery, and it's like game over, I forget everything that happened in the past, but we have to remember that OCD can be traumatizing for people. Trauma is stored in the body. The brain is impacted and I think that we can carry that with us afterwards. Kim: Right. Chris: Yeah. I mean, everything that Alegra was saying—I'll never forget. I always joke, but I thought when treatment was done, rainbows were going to shoot out and butterflies. I was going to jump on my very own unicorn and ride off to the sunset. But it was like a bomb had gone off and I had survived the blast, but everything around me was completely pulverized. I just remember thinking, what do I do now? I remember going on social media to look up some of my friends from high school because my OCD got really, really bad after high school. I just remember everybody was starting to date or marry or travel and move on and I'm like, “Great, I live in my grandma's basement. I don't have anything on my calendar. I'm not dating, I don't have any friends. What do I do?” I was just completely like, “Okay, I don't even know where to begin.” I felt so lost. Anything I did just didn't feel right. Like Alegra said, there was so much aftermath that I had to deal with. I had to deal with the fact that I was lost and confused and I was angry and I had all these emotions. I had these memories of just driving around.  As part of my OCD, I had multiple subtypes—sexual intrusive thoughts, harm thoughts. I remember contamination, stores around me would get dirty, so I'd be driving hours to buy products from non-dirty stores at 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning, crying outside of a store because they were closed or didn't have the product I need, getting home and then my checking would kick in. You left something at the store, driving back. You just put yourself through all these different things that are just not what you would ever experience.  I see it with my clients. One client sticks in mind who was in his eighties and after treatment, getting better. He wasn't happy and he is like, “I'm so happy, Chris. You helped me put OCD in remission. But I now realize that I never got married because I was scared of change. I never left the house that I hated in the city I didn't really like because I was afraid of what would happen if I moved.” He's like, “I basically lived my OCD according to OCD'S rules and I'm just really depressed about that.” I know we're going to talk about the positive sides and how to heal in the second half, but this is just really what OCD can ravish on our lives. Kim: Right.  Jessica: If I can add one thing too really quickly, something I really think is a common experience too is that once healing happens, even if people do get certain parts of their lives back and feel like they can function again in the ways that they want to, there's always this sense of foreboding joy, that it feels good and I'm happy, but I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop all the time. Or what if I go back to how I was and I lose all my progress? Even when there are those periods of joy and happiness and fulfillment, they might also be accompanied with some anxiety and some what-ifs. Of course, we can work on that and should work on that in treatment too because we want to maximize those periods of joy as much as we can. But that's something that I commonly see, that the anxiety sticks around just in different ways. OCD, SHAME, & GUILT Kim: Yeah, for sure. I see that very commonly too. Let's talk now about OCD, shame, and guilt. I'll actually go straight to you, Jessica, because I remember you speaking about this beautifully. Can you explain the difference between shame and guilt specifically related to how it may show up with OCD?  Jessica: Yeah. I mean, they're definitely related feelings but they are different. I think the simplest way to define the difference is guilt says, “I did something bad,” whereas shame says, “I am bad.” Shame is really an identity-based emotion and we see a lot of shame with any theme of OCD. It can show up in lots of different ways, but definitely with some of the themes that are typically classified as Pure O—the sexual intrusive thoughts or unwanted harm thoughts, scrupulosity, blasphemous thoughts. There can be a lot of shame around a person really identifying with their thoughts and what it means about them. Attaching that, meaning about what it means about them. And then of course, there can also be guilt, which I think feels terrible as well, but it's like a shame light where it's like, “I did something wrong by having this thought,” or just guilt for maybe something that they've thought or a compulsion that they've done because of their OCD.  Kim: Yeah. I've actually also experienced a lot of clients saying they feel guilty because of the impact their OCD has had on their loved ones too. They're suffering to the biggest degree, but they're also carrying the guilt of like, “I've caused suffering to my family,” or “I'm a financial burden to my parents with the therapy and the psychiatrist.” I think that there's that secondary guilt that shows up for a lot of people as well, which we can clump in as an outcome or a consequence or an experience of having OCD. Chris: Yeah. I mean, right before you said this, Kim, I was thinking for me personally, that was literally what I was going to say. I have a younger sister. She's a couple of years younger than me and I just put her through hell. She was one of the first people that just felt the OCD's wrath because I was so stressed out. She and I shared a lot of the same spaces in the home, so we'd have a lot of fights. Also, when I was younger, because she looks nothing like me—she actually looks more like you, Kim, blonde hair, blue eyes—people didn't know we were related. People would always say things like, “Oh, is that your girlfriend?” So then I'd have a lot of ancestral intrusive thoughts that caused a lot of harm to me, so I'd get mad at her. Because I was young, I didn't know better. And then just the hell I put my mom through.  I always think about just like, wow, once again, that's not who Chris is. I would jump in front of eight bullets for both my mom and my sister. I remember one time I needed something because I felt dirty, and my mom hit our spending money so that if there was an emergency. My sister knew where it was and she wouldn't give it to me. I remember taking a lighter and lighting it and being like, “I'll burn your hair if you don't give me the money,” because I was so desperate to buy it because that's how intense the OCD was. I remember she and I talking about that and it just feels like a different human. Once again, it's more than just guilt. It's shame of who I had become because of it and not even recognizing the boy I was now compared to the man I am now, way than man now. OCD AND ANGER Kim: One thing we haven't talked a lot about, but Chris, you just spoke to it, and I've actually been thinking about this a lot. Let's talk about OCD and anger because I think that is another emotional toll of OCD. A lot of clients I've had—even just recently, I've been thinking about this a lot—sometimes instead of doing compulsions, they have an anger outburst or maybe as well as compulsions. Does anyone want to speak to those waves of frustration and anger that go around these thoughts that we have or intrusive whatever obsessions in any way, but in addition, the compulsions you feel you have to do when you have OCD? Alegra: I feel like sometimes there can be maybe a deeper, more painful emotion that's underneath that anger, which can be shame or it can be guilt, but it feels like anger is maybe easier to express. But also, there just is inherent anger that comes up with having to live with this. I remember one time in my own personal therapy, my therapist was trying to relate and she pulled out this picture that she had like an, I don't know, eight-year-old client with OCD and was like, “She taps herself a lot.” I screamed at her at that moment. I was like, “Put that fucking picture away, and don't ever show that to me again. I do not want to be compared to an eight-year-old who taps himself, like I will tap myself all day fucking long, so long as I don't have these sexually unwanted thoughts about children.” I was so angry at that moment because it just felt like what I was dealing with was so much more taboo and shameful. I was angry a lot of the time. I don't think we can answer the question of, why? Why did I have to experience this? Why did someone else not have to experience this? And that anger is valid.  The other thing that I want to add is that anger does not necessarily mean that we are now going to act on our obsessions because I think clients get very afraid of that. I remember one time I was so fucking pissed at my coworker. He was obnoxious when I worked in PR, and I was so mad at him, I had to walk outside and regulate. And then instantly, of course, my brain went, “You want his kid to die?” or whatever it was. I felt like, oh my God, I must really want this to happen because I'm mad at him. In terms of anger, we can both feel angry and not align with unwanted thoughts that arise. CAN OCD CAUSE ANGER ISSUES?  Kim: Right. OCD can attack the emotions that you experience, like turn it back on you. It's funny, I was doing a little bit of research for this and I typed in ‘OCD in anger.' I was looking to see what was out there. What was so fascinating to me is, you know when you type something in on Google, it shows all of the other things that are commonly typed in. At the very top was ‘Can OCD cause anger issues?' I was like, that is so interesting, that obviously, loved ones or people with OCD are searching for this because it's so normal, I think, to have a large degree of just absolute rage over what you've been through, how much you've suffered, just the torment and what's been lost, as we've already talked about. I just thought that was really fascinating to see, that that's obviously something that people are struggling with.  Chris: When you think about it, when we're struggling with OCD, the parts of our brain that are trying to protect us are on fire or on high alert. If you always think about that, I always think of a feral dog. If you're trying to get him help, then he starts to bite. That's how I honestly felt. My anger was mostly before I was diagnosed, and once again, like I said, breaking things at home, screaming, yelling at my family, intimidating them, and stuff. I know that once again, that wasn't who I am at the course. When I finally got a diagnosis, I know for me, the anger dissipated. I was still angry, but the outbursts and the rage, and I think the saddest thing I hear from a lot of my clients is they tell me, I think people think I'm this selfish and spoiled and bratty and angry person. I'm not. I just cannot get a break.  I always remind parents that as your loved one or spouses, et cetera—as your loved one gets better, that anger will subside. It won't vanish, it won't disappear, it may change into different emotions, like Alegra was saying, to guilt and to shame and loss of identity. But that rage a lot of times is because we just don't know what to do and we feel attacked constantly with OCD.  Kim: Yeah. Jessica: I also want to validate the piece that anger is a really natural and normal stage of grief. I like that you're differentiating, Chris, between the rage that a lot of people experience in it versus maybe just a different type of anger that can show up after when you recognize how—I think, Alegra, you brought up—we can't answer the question of, why did this happen to me? Or “I missed out on all these times or years of my life that I can't get back.” Anger is not a problem. It's not an issue when it shows up like that. It's actually a very healthy natural part of grief. We want to obviously process it in ways that really honor that feeling and tend to that feeling in a helpful way. I just wanted to point out that part as well. DO YOU CONSIDER HAVING OCD A TRAUMATIC EVENT?    Kim: Yeah, very, very helpful. This is for everybody and you can chime in, but I wanted to just get a poll even. Alegra spoke on this a little bit already. Do you consider having OCD a traumatic event? Alegra: A hundred thousand percent. I'm obviously not going to trauma dump on all of you all, but boy, would I love to. I have had quite a few of what's classified as big T traumas, which I even hate the differentiation of big T, sexual assault, abuse, whatever. I have had quite a bit of big T traumas and I have to say that OCD has been the most traumatizing thing I have been through and I think we'll ever go through. It bothers me how much I think gatekeeping can happen in our community. Like, no, it's only trauma if you've been assaulted, it's only trauma if X, Y, and Z. I have a lot of big T trauma and I'm here to say that OCD hands down, like I would go through all of that big T trauma 15 times over to not have OCD, 100%. I think Chris can just add cherries to the cake, whatever that phrase is. Chris: Yeah. This is actually how the title, the Emotional Toll of OCD, came about. We had really talked about this. I was really inspired mainly by Alegra talking about the trauma of OCD and I was like, finally, someone put the right word because I always felt that other words didn't really speak to my personal experience and the experience I see with clients. We had submitted it for a talk and it got denied. I remember they liked it so much that they literally had a meeting with you and I, Kim, and we're like, “We actually really love this. We just got to figure out a way to change it.” Like Alegra was saying, a lot of the people that were part of a trauma special interest group just said, “Look, we can't be using the word ‘trauma' like this.” But we had a good talk about it. It's like, I do believe it's trauma. I always feel weird talking about him because sometimes he listens to my stuff, but still, I'll say it anyways. But my dad will hopefully be the first to admit it. But there were a lot of physical altercations between he and I that were inappropriate—physical abuse, emotional abuse, yelling, screaming. Like Alegra said, I would relive that tenfold than go through the depths of my OCD again where I attempted suicide, where I isolated, where I didn't even recognize myself.  If ‘trauma' isn't the correct word, we only watered it down to emotional toll just to make DSM-5 folks happy. But if ‘trauma' isn't the word, I don't know what is, because like I said, trauma was okay to describe the pain I went through childhood, but in my personal experience, it failed in comparison to the trauma that I went through with OCD.  Alegra: I also want to add something. Maybe I'm wrong, but if I'm thinking about the DSM definition, I think it's defining post-traumatic stress disorder. I don't think it's describing trauma specifically. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's criteria for PTSD. I will be the first to say and none of you have to agree. I think that you can have PTSD from living with OCD. DSM-wise diagnostically, you can't. But I think when people are like, “Well, that's not the definition of trauma in the DSM,” no, they're defining PTSD. It's like, yeah, some people have anxiety and don't have an anxiety disorder. You can experience trauma and not have full-blown PTSD. That's my understanding of it. Kim: Yeah. It's funny because I don't have OCD, so I am an observer to it. What I think is really interesting is I can be an observer to someone who's been through, like you've talked about, a physical assault or a sexual assault and so forth, and they may report I'm having memories of the event and wake up with the physiology of my heart beating and thoughts racing. But then I'll have clients with OCD who will have these vivid memories of having to wash their hands and the absolute chaos of, “I can't touch this. Oh my God, please don't splash the water on me,” Memories of that and nightmares of that and those physiological experiences. They're remembering the events that they felt so controlled and so stuck in. That's where for me, I was, with Chris, really advocating for. These moments imprint our brain right in such a deep way. Alegra: Yeah. I'm reading this book, not to tell everyone to buy this book, but it's by Dr. Bruce Perry and he does a bunch of research on trauma and the brain. Basically, the way that he describes it is like when we experience something and it gets associated. Let's say, for instance, there are stores that I could go to and I could still feel that very visceral feeling that I did when I was suffering. Part of that is how trauma is stored in the brain. Even if you logically know I'm not in that experience now, I'm not in the war zone or I'm not in the depths of my OCD suffering, just the store, let's say, being processed through the lower part of your brain can bring up all of those associations. So, it does do something to the brain. Kim: Right.  Chris: Absolutely. I was part of a documentary and it was the first time I went back to the home that I had attempted suicide, and the police got called the hospital and all that. It was a bad choice. They didn't push me into it. It was my idea because I haven't gone back there, had no clue how I'd react and I broke down. I mean, broke down in a dry heaving way that I never knew I could and we had to stop filming and we left. Where I was at my worst of OCD was there and also at my grandma's house because that's where I moved right after the suicide attempt. I'd have people around me, and still going down to the basement area that I lived in. It is very hard. I rarely do it. So, I have a reaction. To me, it was like, if that isn't once again trauma, I don't know what is. Alegra: It is.  Chris: Exactly. I'll never forget there was a woman that was part of a support group I ran. She was in her seventies and she had gone through cancer twice. I remember her telling the group that she's like, “I'll go through cancer a third time before I'll ever go back to my worst of OCD.” Obviously, we're not downplaying these other experiences—PTSD, trauma, cancer, horrible things, abuse, et cetera. What we're saying is that OCD takes a lasting imprint and it's something that I have not been able to shake. I've done so much advocacy, so much therapy, so much as a therapist and I don't still struggle, but the havoc it has on my life, that's something I think is going to be imprinted for life. Alegra: Forever. Jessica: Also, part of the definition of trauma is having a life-threatening experience. What you're speaking to, Chris, you had a suicide attempt during that time. Suicidality is common with OCD. Suicidal ideation, it's changing your life. I think Alegra, you said, “I'll never have the life or the brain that I had before OCD.” These things that maybe it's not, well, some of them are actually about real confrontation with death, but these real life-changing, life-altering experiences that potentially also drive some people to have thoughts or feelings about wanting to not be alive anymore. I just think that element is there. Alegra: That's so brilliant, Jessica, because that is so true. If we're thinking about it being life-threatening and life-altering, it was life-threatening for me. I got to the point where I was like, “If something doesn't change, I will kill myself. I will.” That is life-threatening to a person. I would be driving on the freeway like, “Do I just turn the car? Do I just turn it now? Because I was so just fucking done with what was happening in my brain.” Kim: It feels crisis. Alegra: Yeah. Kim: It's like you're experiencing a crisis in that moment, and I think that that's absolutely valid. Alegra: It's an extended crisis. For me, it was a crisis of three to four years. I never had a break. Not when I was sleeping. I mean, never. Chris: I was just going to add that I hear in session almost daily, people are like, “If I just don't wake up tomorrow, I'm fine. I'd never do anything, but if I just don't wake up tomorrow, I'm fine.” We know this is the norm. The DSM talks about 50% of individuals with OCD have suicidal ideation, 25% will attempt. This is what people are going through as they enter treatment or before treatment. They just feel like, “If I just don't wake up or if something were to happen to me, I'd actually be at peace with it.” It's a really alarming number. THE EMOTIONAL TOLL OF OCD TREATMENT Kim: Right. Let's move. I love everything that you guys are saying and I feel like we've really acknowledged the emotional toll really, the many ways that it universally impacts a person emotionally and in all areas of their lives. I'm wondering if you guys could each, one at a time or bounce it off each other, share what you believe are some core ways in which we can manage these emotional tolls, bruises left, or scars left from having OCD? Jessica, do you want to go first?  Jessica: Sure. I guess the first thing that comes to mind is—I'll speak from the therapist perspective—if you're a therapist specializing in treating OCD, make sure you leave room to talk about these feelings that we're bringing up. Of course, doing ERP and doing all of the things to treat OCD is paramount and we want to do that first and foremost if possible. But if you're not also leaving room for your client to process this grief, process through and challenge their shame, just hold space for the anger and maybe talk about it. Let your client have that anger experience in a safe space. We're missing a huge, huge part of that person's healing if we're leaving that out. Maybe I'll piggyback on what you two say, but that's just the baseline that I wanted to put out there. Chris: I could go next. I would say the first thing is what Jess said. We have to treat the whole person. I think it's great when a client's Y-BOCS score has gone down and symptomology is not a daily impact. However, all the things that we talked about, we aren't unicorns. This is what many of our clients are going through and there has to be space for the therapist to validate, to address, and to help heal. I would say the biggest thing that I believe moves you past where we've been talking about is re-identity formation. We just don't recognize until you get better how nearly every single decision we make is based off of our OCD fears, that some way or another, what we listen to, how we speak, what direction we drive, what we buy. I mean, everything we do is, will the OCD be okay with this? Will this harm me, et cetera?  One of the things I do with all my clients before I complete treatment is I start to help them figure out who they are. I say, “Let's knock everything we know. What are the parts of yourself that you organically feel are you and you love? Let's flourish those. Let's water those. Let's help those grow. What are some other things that you would be doing if OCD hadn't completely ransacked your life? Do you spend time with family? Are you somebody that wants to give back to communities? What things do you like to do when you're alone?” I help clients and it was something I did after my own treatment, like re-fall in love and be impressed with yourself and start to rebuild. I tell clients, one of the things that helped me flip it and I try to do it with them is instead of looking at it like, “This is hard, this is tough,” look at it as an opportunity. We get to take that pause, reconnect with ourselves and start to go in a direction that is absolutely going to move as far away from the OCD selves as possible, but also to go to the direction of who we are. Obviously, for me, becoming a therapist and advocate is what's helped me heal, and not everybody will go that route. But when they're five months, six months, a year after the hard part of their treatment and they're doing the things they always picture they could do and reconnecting with the people that they love, I start to see their light grow again and the OCD starts to fade. That's really the goal.  Alegra: I think something that I'll add—again, I don't want to be the controversial one, but maybe I will be—is there might be, yes. Can I get canceled after this in the community? There might be some kind of trauma work that somebody might need to do after OCD treatment, after symptoms are managed, and this is where we need to find nuance. Obviously, treatments like EMDR are not evidence-based for OCD, but if somebody has been really traumatized by OCD, maybe there is some kind of somatic experience, some kind of EMDR, or some kind of whatever it might be to really help work on that emotional impact that might still be affecting the person. It's important of course to find a therapist who understands OCD, who isn't reassuring you and you're falling back into your symptoms. But I have had clients successfully go through trauma therapy for the emotional impact OCD had and said it was tremendously helpful. That might be something to consider as well. If you do all the behavioral work and you still feel like, “I am really in the trenches emotionally,” we might need to add something else in. Chris: I actually don't think that's controversial, Alegra. I think that what you're speaking-- Alegra: I don't either, but a lot of clinicians do. Jessica: No, I agree. I think a lot of people will, and it's been a part of my recovery. I don't talk about a lot for that very reason. But after I was done with treatment, I didn't feel like I needed an OCD therapist anymore. I was doing extremely well, but all the emotions we'd been talking about, I was still experiencing. I found a clinician nearby because I was going on a four-hour round trip for treatment. I just couldn't go back to my therapist because of that. She actually worked with a lot of people that lost their lifestyle because of gambling. I went to her and I said, “What really spoke to me is how you help people rebuild their lives. I don't need to talk about OCD. If I need to, I'll go back to my old therapist. I need to figure out how to rebuild my life.” That's really what she did. She helped me work through a lot of the trauma with my dad and even got my dad to come to a session and work through that. We worked through living in the closet for my sexual orientation for so long and how hard coming out was because I came out while I was in the midst of OCD. It was a pretty horrible coming out experience. She helped me really work through that, work through the time lost and feeling behind my peers and I felt like a whole person leaving. I decided, as a clinician, I have to do that for my clients. I can't let my clients leave like I felt I left. It was no foul to my therapist. We just didn't talk about these other things.  Now what I'll say as a clinician is, if I'm working with a client and I feel like I could be the one to help them, I'll keep them with me. I also know my limitations. Like Alegra was saying, if they had the OCD went down so other traumas came to surface and they've dealt with molestation or something like that, I know my limitations, but what I will make sure to do is refer to a clinician that I think can help them because once again, I think treating the whole client is so important.  Kim: Yeah. There's two things I'll bring up in addition because I agree with everything you're saying. I don't think it's controversial. In fact, I often will say to my staff who see a lot of my clients, we want to either be doing, like Jessica said, some of the processing as we go or really offer after ERPs. “Do you need more support in this process of going back to the person you want?” That's a second level of treatment that I think can be super beautiful. As you're going too with exposures and so forth, you're asking yourself those questions like, what do I value? Take away OCD, what would I do? A lot of times, people are like, “I have no idea. I have really no idea,” like Chris then. I think that you can do it during treatment. You can also do it after, whichever feels best for you and your clinician.  The other thing that I find shows up for my patients the most is they'll bring up the shame and the guilt, or they'll bring up the anger, they'll bring up the grief. And then there's this heavy layer of some judgment for having it. There's this heavy layer as if they don't deserve to have these emotions. Probably, the thing I say the most is, “It makes complete sense that you feel that way.” I think that we have to remember that. That every emotion that is so strong and almost dysregulating, it makes complete sense that you feel that way given what you're going through.  I would just additionally say, be super compassionate and non-judgmental for these emotional waves that you're going to have to ride. I mean, think about the grief. This is the other thing. We don't go in and then process the grief and then often you're running. It's a wave. It's a process. It's a journey. It's going to keep coming and going. I think it's this readjustment on our thinking, like this is the life goal, the long-term practice now. It's not a one-and-done. Do you guys have thoughts? Jessica: I think as clinicians, validating that these are absolutely normal experiences and you deserve to be feeling this way is important because I think that sometimes, I don't think there's ill intent, but clinicians might gaslight their clients in a certain way by saying, “This isn't traumatic. This is not trauma. You can feel sad, but it is absolutely not a trauma,” and not validating that for a person can be really painful. I think as clinicians, we need to be open to the emotional impact that OCD has on a person and validate that so we're not sitting there saying, “Sorry, you can't use that word. This is not your experience. You can be sad, you can be whatever, but it's not trauma,” because I have seen that happen. Kim: Or a clinician saying, “It's not grief because no one died.” Jessica: Yeah. It was just hard. That was it. Get over it.  Kim: Or look at how far you've come. Even that, it's a positive thing to say. It's a positive thing to say, but I think what we're all saying is, very much, it makes complete sense. What were you going to say, Jessica? Sorry. Jessica: No. I just wanted to point out this one nuance that I see come up and that I think is important to catch, which is that sometimes there can be grief or shame or all these emotions that we're talking about, but sometimes those emotions can also become the compulsion themselves at times. Shala Nicely has a really, really good article about this, about how depression itself can become a compulsion, or I've seen clients engage in what I refer to as stewing in guilt or excessive guilt or self-punishment. What we want to differentiate is, punishing yourself by stewing in guilt is actually providing some form of covert reassurance about the obsessions. Sometimes we need to process the true emotional experiences that are happening as a result of OCD, but we also want to make sure that we're on the lookout for self-punishment compulsions and things like that that can mask, or I don't know. That can come out in response to those feelings, but ultimately are feeding the OCD still. I just wanted to point out that nuance, that if someone feels like, “I'm doing all this processing of my feelings with my therapist, but I'm not getting any better or I'm actually feeling worse,” we want to look at, is there a sneaky compulsion happening there?  Chris: I was just going to quickly add two things. One, I think what you were saying, Kim, with your clients, I see all the time. “I shouldn't feel this way. It's not okay for me to feel this way. There's people out there that are going through bigger traumas.” For some reason, I feel society gives a hierarchy of like, “Oh, if you're going through this you can grieve for this much, but we're going to grief police you if you're going through this. That's much down here.” So, my clients will feel guilty. My brother lost an arm when he was younger. How dare I feel bad about the time lost with OCD? I always tell my clients, there's no such thing as grief police and your experience is yours. We don't need to compare or contrast it to others because society already does that. And then second, I'm going to throw in a little plug for Kim. I feel as a clinician, it's my responsibility to keep absorbing things that I think will help my client. Your book that really talks about the self-compassion component, I read that from cover to cover. One thing that I've used when we're dealing with this with my clients is saying like, “We got to change our internal voice. Your internal voice has been one that's been frightened, small, scared, angry for so long. We got to change that internal voice to one that roots for you that has you get up each day and tackle the day.” If a client is sitting there saying that they shouldn't feel okay, I always ask them, “What kind of voice would you use to your younger brother or sister that you feel protective about? Would you knock down their experience? No, you would hold that space for them. What if we did that for you? It may feel odd, but this is something that I feel you need at this time.” Typically, when they start using a more self-compassionate tone, they start to feel like they're healing. So, that's something that we got to make sure they're doing as well. OCD AND DEPRESSION Kim: Yeah. Thank you for saying that. One thing we haven't touched on, and I will just quickly bring it up too, is I think secondary depression is a normal part of having OCD as well and is a part of the emotional toll. Sometimes either that depression can impact your ability to recover, or once you've gone through treatment, you're still not hopeful about the future. You're still feeling hopeless and helpless about the way the world is and the way that your brain functions in certain stresses. I would say if that is the case, also don't be afraid to bring up to your clinician. Like, I actually am concerned. I might have some depression if they haven't picked up on it. Because as clinicians, we know there's an emotional toll, we forget to assess for depression. That's something else just to consider. Chris: Yeah. I'm a stats nerd and I think it's 68% of the DSM, people with OCD have a depressive disorder, and 76% have an anxiety disorder. I always wonder, how can you have OCD and not be depressed? I was extremely depressed when my OCD was going on, and I think it's because of how it ravishes your life and takes you away from the things you care about the most. And then the things that would make you happy to get you out of the depression, obviously, you can't do. I will say the nice thing is, typically, what I see, whether it's through medication or not medication, but the treatment itself—what I see is that as people get better from OCD, if their depression did come from having OCD, a lot of it lifts, especially as they start to re-engage in life. Kim: All right. I'm looking at the time and I am loving everything you say. I'd love if you could each go around, tell us where we can hear more about you. If there's any final word that you want to say, I'm more than happy for you to take the mic. Jessica? Jessica: I'll start. I think I said in the introduction, but I have a private practice in Los Angeles. It's called Mindful CBT California. My website is MindfulCBTCalifornia.com. You can find some blogs and a contact page for me there. I hope to see a lot of you at the IOCDF conference this year. I love attending those, so I'll be there. That's it for me. Kim: Chris? Alegra: Like I said, if you're in the Southern California area, make sure to check out OCD SoCal. I am on the board of that or the International OCD Foundation, I'm on the board. I'm always connected at events through that. You can find me on my social media, which is just my name, @ChrisTrondsen. I currently work at the Gateway Institute in Orange County, California, so you can definitely find me there. My email is just my name, ChrisTrondsen@GatewayOCD.com. I would say the final thought that I want to leave, first and foremost, is just what I hope you got from this podcast is that all those other mixed bags of emotions that you're experiencing are normal. We just want to normalize that for you, and make sure as you're going through your recovery journey that you and your clinician address them, because I feel much more like a whole person because I was able to address those. You're not alone. Hopefully, you got from that you're not alone. Kim: Alegra? Alegra: You can find me @obsessivelyeverafter on Instagram. I also have a website, AlegraKastens.com, where you can find my contact info. You can find my Ask Alegra workshop series that I do once a month. I also just started a podcast called Sad Girls Who Read, so you can find me there with my co-host Erin Kommor, who also has OCD. My final words would probably be, I know we talked about a lot of really dark stuff today and how painful OCD can be, but it absolutely can get so much better. I would say that I am 95% better than I was when I first started suffering. It's brilliant and it's beautiful, and I never thought that would be the case. Yes, you'll hear from me in July, Kim, but other than that, I feel like I do have a very-- Kim's like, “Oh, will I?” Kim: I've scheduled you in. Alegra: She's like, “I have seven months to prep for this.” But other than that, I would say that my life is like, I never would've dreamed that I could be here, so it is really possible. Kim: Yeah. Chris: Amen. Of that. Kim: Yeah. Thank you all so much. This has been so meaningful for me to have you guys on. I'm really grateful for your time and your advocacy. Thank you. Chris: Thanks, Kim. Thanks for having us.  Alegra: Thanks, Kim.

Craig Riggins offers his thoughts on Chris Rock: Selective Outrage as well as some of his all-time favorite comedians.

The Atlanta Braves have multiple reasons why there is optimism about them being contenders for a World Series championship. Ozzie Albies and Ronald Acuna Jr. are fully healthy and can't wait to get on the diamond. Jon Chuckery talked about how the National League East is the reason why the Braves are in good shape to be the contenders they want to be. Secondly, the Atlanta Falcons were one of the best rushing teams in the NFL. Ever since Arthur Smith stepped through the doors of Flowery Branch, he wanted to establish just that as a play caller. Chris Lindstrom has been a huge part of establishing their identity. Jon Chuckery talked about how the Falcons need to continue to build in the trenches with guys like Lindstrom. Lastly, the Atlanta Hawks are set to start the second half of the season against the Cleveland Cavaliers tonight at State Farm Arena. Chuckery talked about how the Hawks have to get off to a good start if they want a real shot at the playoffs.Built BarBuilt Bar is a protein bar that tastes like a candy bar. Go to builtbar.com and use promo code “LOCKEDON15,” and you'll get 15% off your next order.FanDuelMake Every Moment More. Place your first FIVE DOLLAR bet to get ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY DOLLARS in Free Bets – win or lose! Visit Fanduel.com/LockedOn today to get startedFANDUEL DISCLAIMER: 21+ in select states. First online real money wager only. Bonus issued as nonwithdrawable free bets that expires in 14 days. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Gambling Problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit FanDuel.com/RG (CO, IA, MD, MI, NJ, PA, IL, VA, WV), 1-800-NEXT-STEP or text NEXTSTEP to 53342 (AZ), 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat (CT), 1-800-9-WITH-IT (IN), 1-800-522-4700 (WY, KS) or visit ksgamblinghelp.com (KS), 1-877-770-STOP (LA), 1-877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY (467369) (NY), TN REDLINE 1-800-889-9789 (TN) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Atlanta Braves have multiple reasons why there is optimism about them being contenders for a World Series championship. Ozzie Albies and Ronald Acuna Jr. are fully healthy and can't wait to get on the diamond. Jon Chuckery talked about how the National League East is the reason why the Braves are in good shape to be the contenders they want to be. Secondly, the Atlanta Falcons were one of the best rushing teams in the NFL. Ever since Arthur Smith stepped through the doors of Flowery Branch, he wanted to establish just that as a play caller. Chris Lindstrom has been a huge part of establishing their identity. Jon Chuckery talked about how the Falcons need to continue to build in the trenches with guys like Lindstrom. Lastly, the Atlanta Hawks are set to start the second half of the season against the Cleveland Cavaliers tonight at State Farm Arena. Chuckery talked about how the Hawks have to get off to a good start if they want a real shot at the playoffs. Built Bar Built Bar is a protein bar that tastes like a candy bar. Go to builtbar.com and use promo code “LOCKEDON15,” and you'll get 15% off your next order. FanDuel Make Every Moment More. Place your first FIVE DOLLAR bet to get ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY DOLLARS in Free Bets – win or lose! Visit Fanduel.com/LockedOn today to get started FANDUEL DISCLAIMER: 21+ in select states. First online real money wager only. Bonus issued as nonwithdrawable free bets that expires in 14 days. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Gambling Problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit FanDuel.com/RG (CO, IA, MD, MI, NJ, PA, IL, VA, WV), 1-800-NEXT-STEP or text NEXTSTEP to 53342 (AZ), 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat (CT), 1-800-9-WITH-IT (IN), 1-800-522-4700 (WY, KS) or visit ksgamblinghelp.com (KS), 1-877-770-STOP (LA), 1-877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY (467369) (NY), TN REDLINE 1-800-889-9789 (TN) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Chris Van Vliet, 4-time Emmy Award-winning TV host and content creator, joins us in the sauna to talk about interviewing celebrities including The Rock and Harrison Ford, life lessons learned from interviews over the years, and his viral moment with Anne Hathaway. Add us on Instagram: Chris Van Vliet: https://www.instagram.com/chrisvanvliet Jen Kramer: https://www.instagram.com/jenkramermagic Andrei Jikh: https://www.instagram.com/andreijikh Don't Sweat It: https://www.instagram.com/dontsweatitclips Subscribe to us on YouTube: Chris Van Vliet: https://www.youtube.com/ChrisVanVliet Andrei Jikh: https://www.youtube.com/AndreiJikh Jen Kramer: https://www.youtube.com/JenKramerMagic 00:00 - Chris Van Vliet 00:44 - LEVEL ONE 01:01 - What does it take to win an Emmy Award? 03:24 - What The Rock is really like 04:16 - Life lessons learned from interviews 07:03 - How to bring out the best in people 08:22 - Does Chris ever get nervous during interviews? 09:35 - LEVEL TWO 11:32 - The interview with Anne Hathaway that went viral 14:27 - Harrison Ford story 20:40 - LEVEL THREE 22:16 - Perspective on failure 23:10 - How Chris got his first jobs on TV 28:08 - LEVEL FOUR 32:02 - Chris and his wife Rachel are expecting a baby girl 34:13 - Has Chris had an income goal? 37:59 - Digital media and traditional media 39:49 - LEVEL FIVE #podcast #interview #celebrities #media #tvhost

In hour No. 3, Wolf and Luke discuss Chris Paul's performance against Memphis and the Cardinals hiring an assistant general manager.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In hour No. 3, Wolf and Luke discuss Chris Paul's performance against Memphis and the Cardinals hiring an assistant general manager.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The inside scoop on the health and wellness platform the actor designed with his team of world-class experts

Michael Venidis [00:00:00] Welcome to the Successful Life Podcast. I am your host, Corey Berrier, and I am here with my man, Michael Venidis, right? You got it, Corey, man. Oh, man. But I feel you should feel super, super special because I mess up Smith, typically. . Hey man, I feel special to be here. It's a privilege. . I appreciate you being here, brother. [00:00:22] What's going on, man? I'm super excited to dig into this conversation with you. So first, just tell everybody a little bit about who you are and what you do for the Home Services community. Yeah, man, I'd love to do that. Thank you. Yeah. My name's Michael Venidis, and I'm our CXO here at RYNO Strategic Solutions for some people. [00:00:43] That's your Chief Experience Officer. I've been here with RYNO, a digital marketing agency that exists solely for the trades, for 11 years now. And a lot of my role is not just internal, but external when we use that word, experience. Listen, truth be told, I walk around and treat everything like it's my [00:01:00] responsibility. [00:01:00] That's how I like to operate. Treat it like you own it. I think it always FARs well for you when you genuinely care about what you do and who you do it with. But to be clear, I'm solely responsible for the experience of our clients here, making sure they get a world-class experience, but also the knowledge of the team members, and the employees to build something truly remarkable; genuinely caring is one of seven core values that we have. It's essential that I create an environment where they feel cared about and something that they can believe in and be passionate about, right? [00:01:29] Because when we're passionate, it ultimately reflects in great quality work and happy clients. The rest is history. A hundred percent, dude. And when you pour into people with a genuine heart, People can tell that. And even if things, and here's, this is really important. Even if things go sideways, heaven forbid if you are, if you approach your customers and clients like you all do with that servant's heart, things don't go so sideways when they go sideways.[00:02:00] [00:02:00] So true. Listen, I can easily give you an example. I remember having a compliance company come out to my home, and try and fix the dryer after I tried to fix it myself three times, right? Totally. Finally gave up and charged me a fee comes out; he gets nothing done and doesn't resolve it. [00:02:16] What do I do? I'm the Google guy. Like I leave a review. I'm that jerk. But I get a phone call on a Sunday from the owner himself as I'm walking through Walmart, and he proceeds to tell me that he sees this one-star review and that he doesn't believe that I should be charged a fee in which they came out and could not accomplish what they were hired to do and that he's going to fully refund me. [00:02:36] How do you think I responded to that, right? Yes, it was an inconvenience, but I literally like instantly, without him even having to ask me, go back to Google, update my one star to a five star, and then proceed to write this extreme paragraph about why I'm going to continue to use this company the unforeseeable future, simply because of how they chose to conduct business in a negative environment, right? [00:02:57] Because how we react in negative [00:03:00] environments and when times are tough, that's our true colors. And listen, man, we're not perfect; we're people, right? You either you you basically learn, or you grow, or you succeed, or you learn, right? And a lot of those things, come with opportunities. [00:03:16] Which opportunities are really just mistakes that you capitalize on, right? A hundred percent. A hundred percent. I, yeah, dude I totally agree with you. And we've, look, everybody's made mistakes. Everybody's had lessons that they've learned. I hope that you learn something from it because if you didn't I guess it's not really a lesson. [00:03:34] So you, you said that you keep, that you're also in charge of the experience for the team. So I want you to drive home something really quick. Now, obviously, To the point podcast is your guy's podcast, which is one of the dopest podcasts. I talk about it all the time. I love it. And so partially I think you all talk about everything that I talk about all day long. [00:03:57] In addition to that, Chris is ADHD. [00:04:00] And I'm ADHD. And most people that we work with in the trades are ADHD. And that's not a negative thing. It's actually a great thing. But what I think is important, and what I think I felt in that conversation with you a moment ago is that. [00:04:15] You, you're the integrator to the visionary to a degree. And I want you to talk about that for a minute because that is such an important part for somebody like Chris and for somebody like me to have that person execute on these badass ideas or to say, you might want to hold off on that badass idea right now. [00:04:37] Yeah. Yeah, man. You've got some great points there, right? Like Chris is, by all means, a visionary. And the gifts and talents that he has are endless. I've learned so much from him over my 11-year career here. But I'd be ashamed if I didn't also give credit to his wife Anna. [00:04:51] She's our coo hides behind the scenes. But she's who I work with the most closely. And I joke, and if you've ever had a chance to work with her or get to know her she's [00:05:00] an alien amongst humans. She just operates at standards and levels that I think are. [00:05:04] Hard to put into words, and in, in every great way that you can imagine. I've been very blessed and fortunate to work alongside her for those reasons. She's, she's a pivotable member in the development of me and my career and how I operate in the standards that I personally have. [00:05:18] But to your point, I will say this to any business owner that is fortunate enough to listen in to this podcast is that your core values are huge. And I speak from the lens that I'm not owner, an owner, right? I am on the C-suite of this team. It's a three-piece executive team. And I worked my way into this part of the company from the very, very bottom. [00:05:39] So when I speak from the lens of being on the opposite side of a table. And as a business owner, when you develop the business, and you create your core values, your mission statement, and your vision you see it do one lens, but at the time I was on the opposite side of the table. I was a. I was the result of that. [00:05:57] And if there's anything that I've learned [00:06:00] is, those core values are crucial. One thing I'm passionate about, we have seven of them here. I literally wear 'em on my wrist regularly, and it's because I believe in them, right? Like when we all worked and picked the values, we wanted to pick values that were applicable not just to our professional careers, but to our personal life. [00:06:17] To be clear, Corey, like I get up, I walk out of this room, I shut down for the night when I go home, I'm still trying to be all seven of these things. And that's what I think is crucial are you creating a culture and environment for your team in which they can truly believe in what we are trying to do and accomplish? [00:06:34] And that ultimately just challenges them to be a good, genuine human being in. to just being a great employee, right? Because let's be real if you're happy you can stand behind what we're trying to do here and you build a culture and a picture and a system that we can be proud of. It's gonna naturally reflect in the quality of the work because they're proud and happy to be here. [00:06:55] They're ambitious, driven, and motivated to not only grow but to deliver results [00:07:00] that their supervisors and the rest that the company can be proud of. And results for their family, right? Cause if you're happy at work, guaranteed you're gonna be way happier at home. But before we dive into that, I really want to go back for a second cuz you mentioned that when you started here, you start at the bottom and I don't know that we've dove into that yet. [00:07:20] So can you walk me through what you mean by that? Yeah, absolutely. At RYNO we are very we try to hold ourselves to a higher standard, in comparison to a lot of the other marketing agencies out there. One thing we've always been passionate about is not just generating a lead, right? [00:07:36] But what is a lead? , right? Because arguably a lead is any type of revenue that comes in from marketing efforts. But we take more of this mentality of a leader isn't just that revenue; it's revenue that comes from an actual new customer, right? What would you rather have Corey, new revenue or new customers and new revenue? [00:07:54] Because if I grow my customer base and I retain them, and I give them world-class, they stay. And [00:08:00] obviously the average ticket of a lifetime customer, 10 x is when they continue to stick around. So for me, I want to generate more bodies, more new customers that never intended on using me, rather than just trying to get repeats to come back and do additional transactions and look at it from the revenue perspective. [00:08:19] So we have a tool called the RYNO Tracks that we use to try and measure that and help us really hold ourselves accountable. To new customers, but to your direct question. In order to give that tool, to provide that tool, we needed to have every single call that was recorded as a lead, be literally listened to and not artificial intelligence. [00:08:42] Like we needed people to listen to those calls. They were trained to listen to those calls and try and distinguish who did or did not do business before. What type of service, was this a service, a sales call? Was this a plumbing lead? And we needed the context so that we can get the reporting data at a [00:09:00] level that was unmatched, giving us an upper unique differentiator on why we should be the best digital marketing choice for a home service contractor. [00:09:10] And all that is being said because that's where I started. I was that call listener. I had a pretty close call with life, and a wild kind of situation that helped me fall into this environment where I was immobile and in need of work and I got fortunate in being offered this opportunity to literally just listen to calls and transcribe them. [00:09:28] That's where I began. You can provide the best lead on the planet for everybody that you work with. But if that CSR drops the ball that leads to worthless, right? Or if the technician, there are so many steps along the way after you do your job that is, that this tied to, or perceived to be tied to your result, that you have zero control. [00:09:58] Yeah, you hit the nail on the head, man. It's [00:10:00] like every digital marketing agency's nightmare, right? Hey, I'm generating all these leads. This report says you got a hundred new customers. And then it upset contractors says, I don't see a single nickel, and they're blaming us for it and accusing us. [00:10:13] And it's but the data's here. And I think we often figure out, yeah, there are a lot more moving parts, right? I can make the phone ring, but yes your CSR, your customer service representative has a responsibility to close it. And we still got a tech right or a comfort advisor that needs to get out there and do their work on the doorstep too. [00:10:30] So yeah, there are a lot of moving parts that don't have control over it definitely makes me cringe when I have to have that conversation. So let me ask you, a question that perplexes me often is how many businesses in the home services space, That don't focus on their CSRs? Typically, and I'm sure you'll agree with this, CSRs are typically the lower-paid individuals in the group in the company. [00:10:59] So [00:11:00] you've got the lowest paid person in your company handling the very first conversation with your new customer that you just spent. God knows how much money to drive to that phone call. I don't understand how that makes sense. Yeah, I'm with you on that, Corey. It's a passionate subject for me. I could literally spend this whole episode talking about it, but the analogy I like to use is, it's like a book. [00:11:25] I don't know about you, right? But even a movie per se, like my wife and I, we go to the movies and if I'm like five to 10 minutes late, I feel cheated. I'm like, This movie's incomplete. I don't know how it began. Like it's like trying to tell me to read the alphabet and skipping a, B, and C books the same way, man. [00:11:42] Look at your business, right? Like you don't wanna read half of the. I also don't want half of an experience like this as your front line of defense. It's your first impression. The first impression to me is just as important as the last impression and how you're going to close the [00:12:00] deal. So I couldn't agree with you more. [00:12:01] It's, it never makes sense to me how CSR reps are some of the lower-end pay-based employees and some of these organizations when really like the amount of control and impact that they have on an organization is mind-blowing. I'm a, I'm personally a fan of incentivized motivational pay scales. [00:12:16] I know that's a topic that's been discussed in some organizations, and, if some of these contractors can develop that, I think they would be quite impressed. When I typically see the amount of bleeding that happens on a CSR team and how many times leads are lost, I wouldn't be far-fetched to say the amount of revenue you would regain. [00:12:36] That is lost just by creating some type of incentive that would essentially pay for itself a thousand percent. It would, not only would it pay for itself, you're gonna make a ton more money because of the revenue from those extra efforts. I'll tell you one of the things that I'm probably most proud of is I took them, I took a CSR, and I trained her to do nothing [00:13:00] but follow up. [00:13:01] The happy calls, right? A lot of people call 'em happy calls. Yeah, most of those calls hardly ever get done, and they certainly don't get done the right way. And so I implemented that inside of a company in Vegas, and dude, she pulled in, I think it was 50 some thousand the first month, 90 the second, I think it was 120. [00:13:20] The third, don't quote me on the exact numbers, but either way, we're looking at, around 300 plus thousand dollars in 90 days. 90 days, dude. 90 days, right? It's crazy. One person, right? Imagine if you had a whole system designed to fight that. I do have a system, but so, in fact, it's funny you say that because, and I'll just tell you exactly how I get 'em to do it. [00:13:43] Send a voicemail drop, right? Because the phone's not gonna ring. Sorry, we missed your call. I wanted to let you know this is what we're doing. And then a text message, Hey, sorry we missed your sorry. A text message saying, Hey, wanna make sure you got the message? Email. Hey, just wanna make sure you got the message right.[00:14:00] [00:14:00] You hit 'em three times in the way you do it. In a sequence like that, if you do it to the white sequence, it doesn't feel threatening, it feels helpful, and it makes the customer feel like you give a crap about what they're, what you're doing, which you should give a crap. And it worked. Hey, and you know what I'm hearing for the listeners I'm gonna go ahead and coin Chris onto the point, right? [00:14:22] You've got your ambition without action is useless found. Corey might have just given away some really simple solutions that could improve your business. So make it happen. That's what I heard; it's really not hard, dude. It's really not the biggest hurt. It's the biggest hurdle is typically the people that are in that position. [00:14:45] And this is nothing against most of the people are younger, and I'm sure you, I had no idea how old you are, but my, I guess as you'll agree that most younger people don't have, a lot of the younger people don't have the phone skills. I'm 44, so, like, I grew up talking on the [00:15:00] phone. It's just normal for me to make a phone call; it's less normal than it was three years ago, right? But it's still normal. But a lot of people have zero experience. Just have normal conversations, and they get put in these roles. That's a good point. And they're jammed up. So I would argue why are you pulling in people that may be from a different company, that here's where I'm going with this, hire people that maybe are not in the home services industry, that are great on the phone, or maybe great service people, like in a restaurant, pay the amount, performance-based pay, and they will work their ass off for you. Yeah. I think you hit the nail on the head, Corey. Incentivize them. Drive them Because when they're driven, they will find the solutions and improve themselves to the level and the expectations that you set. But more importantly, yeah, a position like that look for your soft skills, right? [00:15:49] Like it's, that's something that I'm passionate about here at RYNO, right? Like we do, we hire for character and not skill. We treat our business like a. Like we are constantly doing education [00:16:00] here, always trying to stay in the know and stay up to date with Google, the algorithm, what it's doing, so that we are ahead of the rest of the competition and, changing along with the algorithms to make sure that the leads keep coming through. [00:16:12] But a lot of that is done because we've created an environment that, once again, incentivizes the team members to grow and learn core values here. Education, that's number two. I've called out, right? The first one, genuinely care. But we're trying to cultivate something here that incentivizes them to just constantly grow, learn, be driven, and focus on soft skills. [00:16:33] Trust you can be the greatest person in the world, whatever it is you do. And if I can't trust you and count on you, it's just gonna be a bad experience regardless of how skilled you are. I have no interest in babysitting and chasing you down. Like, I've gotta be able to trust you to your point. It's the same thing, right? [00:16:51] Like with your CSR reps, it's the front line of defense. If I own this business and I know that they have the ability to make me lose that lead. [00:17:00] It's cringeworthy, man. It's gotta be someone I trust and train, and I go for the soft skills to your point. Yeah. What you just really made me think of something too. [00:17:09] How many managers rip these people, a new asshole, and then expect them to go on back on the phone and be happy with their customers? Look, people can feel the smile through the phone. They can also feel if you're upset through the phone, the tonality, even then, your body language, you can feel it through the phone. [00:17:31] Yeah. I will tell you this, I'm a huge advocate of catching what they're doing. Yes, that gets them what they're doing wrong. All right. This is a very simple lesson learned from a book called The One Minute Manager. It's a very short, quick read. It's usually the first go-to book. I recommend anyone who's not a reader, especially when they have an interest in leadership, and I'm an advocate of that. [00:17:51] I run around here, and anytime someone does something right, I look for the opportunity to go that awesome, nice work so that they can [00:18:00] feel that positivity and train themselves to continue to replicate and do this. Now, that doesn't mean that I don't call out negative scenarios, to your point, like there will be instances because I think the timing is a factor too, right? [00:18:12] It's crucial if someone makes me hate calling it a mistake, right? I prefer to call it an opportunity. As I said, it's about learning. If we're not succeeding, as long as we're growing, I'll gladly take a mistake. I use air quotes for our listeners, and gladly take a mistake if I know that's the cost which it's going to result in their growth. [00:18:32] So, to be clear, I might have a negative instance, but I usually try to catch it in the heat of the moment so that they can literally observe right then and there while it's fresh in their mind, talking to them two weeks later. It's is it worth it? Is it worth demotivating them, throwing them off their A-game, and having a difficult conversation when enough time goes by? [00:18:52] I think the timing, I think how you go about it all, that's a whole different subject I could talk about forever. You said something really important. If you don't have [00:19:00] that conversation right then and you say, let's just say that you, these are one of the time, this is one of the times that you did wait two weeks, During that two weeks, that whole two weeks, there's a piece of your brain that's getting the energy sucked out of it from that negative thing that's lingering in the back of your mind. [00:19:18] And you know it's there. Yeah. And you need to take care of it, and it's not going away. So it's just easier just to nip it in the bud right then and there. Yeah. But I know, that's the thing is, I think there's a, and everyone's got a different preference, like for me, and again, this is just me, it's my personal approach, we can all handle things differently. [00:19:37] But I often look at that as a selfish approach. Just because I'm sitting here and something is in the back of my mind, and it's making me uncomfortable, it would be a selfish approach to rush the situation, not find the right time, or address it the correct way strategically. Not weighing out the cause and the damage that creates. [00:19:55] Just because I wanna make myself feel better as a leader. I'm trying my best to think about how it's [00:20:00] going to make the recipient feel. I try to catch them at the right time, right? Like I will strategically sometimes have conversations on a Friday, knowing they're going into the weekend rather than a Monday [00:20:09] I might do it at four o'clock in the afternoon versus eight o'clock in the morning, right? I try to put myself in your shoes and go, Is what I'm about to share? Really going to rattle them and throw them off for the entire day? And is the damage and the result of that worth the weight that I'm carrying of something in the back of my mind? [00:20:26] Now for me, like that's just how I operate. It's one of these things, too, where I also take a parade principle effect. And what I'm trying to do is say to myself, All right, what's bugging me? Is this an error that is going to continuously keep happening, then I know we've got some long-term damage. [00:20:45] But if this is like a one-time thing, and I'm selfishly just wanting to get a word out and correct something. And the truth is it's not going to happen again. You better believe me; I'm gonna say we should eat our losses here. Like it's not worth demotivating them, it's not worth disrupting, [00:21:00] what they're thinking and they're feeling the confidence level. [00:21:01] Because it's a thing, it's a psychological thing. If I sit here and I call something out and bash them for something that isn't gonna continue to occur, it could literally impact, the rate at which they're confident and comfortable sharing ideas and thoughts and, ultimately, something that could change the entire trajectory of your business just because they had an environment comfortable enough to share an idea. [00:21:26] Cause sometimes an idea is just to transition into a bigger thing. So you're right. And you're strategic, I was thinking more alone if I make a mistake, right? If I make a mistake with you and I say something that I know I shouldn't have said, got it? And I should have handled it. I should have said, Michael, look, dude, I shouldn't have said that. I should have X, Y, Z. Instead of me holding onto it for two weeks and eating at me a little bit, maybe wasn't that big of a deal. Got it. So two perspectives, but you're right, [00:21:53] as far as is from a, a business owner or boss to an employee or whatever you wanna call it? Yeah. You have to strategically [00:22:00] do it for sure. Good. Yeah, super good point. Definitely misunderstood what you meant by that. But yeah, like if I'm carrying a weight on my shoulder like I'm a total advocate of positivity, man. [00:22:10] I definitely don't want to operate in a scenario where I've got a weight of anything on my shoulders. , listen, if we're running our operations or our business as well, it's an environment in which that employee feels like they can come to us and have a conversation directly and say, I'm feeling this way. [00:22:27] I wish I didn't say that. Wish I didn't do this. To your point, yeah, like I think that they should get that off of their shoulders right away in those instances. But I also think it's our responsibility to create something that lets them feel like they can do that. Like I have some of the most candid, authentic relationships with my teammates because they understand, in business, I'm not judging them by their character. [00:22:46] I'm simply judging them by a. As characters, we've got all the respect in the world for each other, and they don't feel attacked personally. They just understand that there's an obstacle that needs to be, met you. A challenge that needs to be met for lack [00:23:00] better terms. Yeah. Because it's not personal if somebody's made, I won't even say the thing. If they're learning a lesson and it's something that was genuine, slip up or whatever, it, it's not, it's completely reputable. We're human beings, right? These things are gonna happen. Yeah. It's so true, man. It should never feel personal, but if we are operating correctly, I think when we take the soft skills that I've referenced, It becomes easier to not cross, that line. [00:23:26] I'm gonna credit the real frank he's an operation. Have you heard of him? I always butcher his last name. It's like back, I think Frank. I took a course of his, and he's an ops guy. I took a course of his in during the pandemic, and he taught me the art of how you tee up a difficult conversation. [00:23:44] And I'm going, Holy smokes. This is brilliant. Because obviously, the difficult conversations are where they feel personally attacked, right? Like they take it personally. So it's like how do you create this again, like a culture in which you can have those candid conversations without the [00:24:00] result of feeling personally attacked. [00:24:02] And a lot of that's just expectation. It's really just, Hey, this is, do you know why you're in here? Give them the chance to share that, right? Okay, let's get across that. Make sure they understand what that is. All right, things happen. What are we gonna do to correct it? When are we gonna do it by? [00:24:16] It's that simple, right? Hey, I understand mistakes happen. How, what's your plan to fix this, so it's not happening again? When setting a calendar reminder, come back in on that date; hey, this is still occurring. Is it safe for me to say, you guaranteed that we would have this result and a resolution by the state? [00:24:35] Do we don't? Am I the bad guy here? Because I feel like I was pretty negotiable and pretty understanding and trying to give you the ability to see you have an opportunity here. Don't make it a mistake. Make it an Opportunity, and then what happens? Ah, I shit the bed again. [00:24:50] Hopefully, I'm a lot of curses on the show. I apologize; you're totally fine. At that point, it gets to a point where, like the dates here, the expectation is set. [00:25:00] Like at what point do I finally say Corey, what would you do if you were me bud? It's been three times we're going in this circle, man. [00:25:07] It's nothing personal, but the bar has been set, and we continue to fall short. What should I do? Yeah. I, here's here, first thing I thought of is, what is the expectation if the situation or the issue is not met? In other words, if it's, if they don't fix the problem or whatever it is, what's the next step? [00:25:26] And maybe that could eliminate having a second or third time. That would be the goal, right? What are you gonna do differently, and when are you gonna do a buy? Ultimately, by that date comes, it's, Hey, nice work. You were a man of your word. You were impeccable. You made a suggestion, you saw it through, and it looks to me like you've had this great learning and growing opportunity. [00:25:45] You're now greater because of it. Thank you. Thank you for doing that. But if you fall short, like all you're doing is creating a factual, evidential path in which the end result from it's gonna get you. And listen, if it comes down to that, [00:26:00] I'm not the bad guy. Like we had this expectation in advance, and it becomes very easy for me to say What would you do if you were me? [00:26:07] This isn't what I want, but it's what I gotta do. They know it's coming, right? It's not like it's a surprise. Typically, it's not a super big surprise when somebody knows they're getting ready to be let go. They typically know. Too, we take a while. I think we're all our own worst enemies in the sense that we wait too long. [00:26:23] I think it's some of the worst things is like we as leaders, we care, and we drag our feet a lot longer than we should, but. What are you gonna do when you got a good heart? That is probably one of the hardest things that, that, especially everybody that we work with in here in the trades. It is hard because we do have a big heart, and we do want to give people, this, I feel like most people wanna give people shirts off their backs, but at the end of the day, you also have to figure out the fine line, you're in business to make money not to support everybody around, around your community. So you gotta think about that when you're pricing yourself out. You gotta really, and you also got, there's a lot of things you gotta think about when you, [00:27:00] but it's, but that's super reputable cuz I see this a lot, I see a lot of companies at Under Price. [00:27:08] They're just to try to stay relevant, and it's a race to the bottom. I would agree. Yeah. I'm definitely in alignment when I say, Hey, you charge what you're worth. It's, doesn't look at it as, I'm trying to be the cheapest, the most expensive. It's just you've got a set of standards for the quality that you're going to promise to deliver. [00:27:26] And let's be real, man, Reputable people will pay atrocious amounts. Like just to again, be able to trust and rely on you, right? I'm not looking for the cheapest guy to do my roof right now. I'm just looking for the guy. I can count on the guy that I feel good about. Like, at the end of the day, that's what it's about, right? [00:27:41] As a consumer, I just wanna feel good, right? Yeah. There are gobs of money in the world, and what each of us is willing to pay for different things varies. But I think one thing that we all have in common is we want to feel good about it. And how we feel good varies. Like what your priority [00:28:00] is different than what my priority is and what equates to that positive feeling. [00:28:05] But I can tell you, you're I totally agree with you, but I can tell you one thing that's not gonna leave a positive feeling is. Not being empathetic with your customer and trying to mow them over and try to charge 'em for everything in the world. You gotta think about it, you're talking to a human being. [00:28:20] They're human beings that have stuff going on them. And you gotta really think about that. And I believe in my heart, you're better off going and making, a friend with these people. You're better off approaching it that way. And I'll tell you, this is an absolute fact when people say that they have a hard time selling; here's why they have a hard time selling because you're trying to sell something that you shouldn't either be selling or you're selling something you don't believe in, or there's some incongruence in whatever it is you're doing. [00:28:48] Because if you were doing it with a good heart, there wouldn't be any selling involved in it because the person would wanna do business with you a hundred percent. Yeah. I couldn't agree more, right? We [00:29:00] often. Overcomplicate things. We overanalyze it. Sometimes the ambitious goal gets in the way of what the true value is. [00:29:07] We're all people, and the quicker we can understand that all people are either mothers, sons, fathers, daughters, whatever, right? Like we all have something in common. The key is to develop a relationship with them as human beings. The rest comes naturally, man. I just wanna feel good about, who you are under my roof. [00:29:25] And this is the thing, man is like a house is a significant investment, whether it's trades and air conditioning, whether it's roofing, electrical, all of it. I'm calling you for a reason. It's intimidating. I don't know how to solve it myself in most cases. So by the time you get to the door, the odds are already stacked against you in the sense that, one, I don't know enough about what's going on, and I don't like that you have that leverage. [00:29:47] I don't like that. I cannot trust you. I'm skeptical. I'm sitting here going when you go up there, are you telling me the truth? I don't know you. I need to feel like I can count on you. I think sales associates and techs, they would get a [00:30:00] lot farther if they focus on developing trust and making sure that the consumer feels really good about the relationship before they dive in. [00:30:08] And some of the ways of doing that is show them pictures of what you're seeing, try to educate them without overanalyzing and complicating it, because then I just feel overwhelmed. I'm like, Listen, man, like you're not making me feel good. You're making me feel confused. So dumb it down for me, but I also gotta feel as if I can count on you. [00:30:26] So to your point, yeah, I think it's very important, like you have to develop that relationship. That should be the priority when you get to that doorstep. The sales should just be a byproduct. Really it should organically come from a general friendship that is being developed because I'm here to help. [00:30:43] I just want to get to know you while I'm here trying to make your life better. That's it. Yeah. And here's the thing, like a lot of times, I think that we gotta think about from a customer standpoint here, because how many times, I don't know, I don't think I've ever had to call an [00:31:00] HVAC company or a plumbing company in an emergency. [00:31:03] So my point is that most people don't have that phone call in their brain or repertoire. So when the CSR is answering the 50000th call for the day, and it's just the next call, it may be that customer's first call ever calling a service company ever. And to your point, that makes 'em nervous; it makes people uncomfortable. [00:31:27] And you're right, it makes 'em super uncomfortable cuz you have something. That if leverage, you have a lot of leverage. Absolutely. Yeah, You hit the nail on the head, man. It's for sure something that we have to be aware of that. We have to remember to think, and that's what I do, right? [00:31:44] I'm a marketer if there's anything I'm doing, I'm constantly analyzing the psychological components of, hey, when I'm a consumer, why do I look at this billboard? Why does my eye go to the color orange versus green? Like, why is red associated with an emergency in danger? [00:31:59] I have to think of [00:32:00] that. So I get into this common habit of, hey, if I'm gonna grow businesses using search engines, that's why we exist. We exist to grow businesses, period, right? That's our mission statement here at RYNO. How do you expect me to successfully grow a business without having a general understanding of what the company does and offers? [00:32:17] So I, that's one thing I'm just gonna throw out. I'm changing gears a little bit here, but, I think it's a, it's hard for me to understand when we bring in marketing agencies that have zero experience in what it is that I actually offer. Hire someone that understands what you do. [00:32:30] But more importantly, you have to make an a, an attempt to understand the way the consumer thinks, right? When I go to Google, why am I typing in what I'm typing and when would I use something like this? In comparison to a desk or a laptop like this, right? Like psychographics, right? [00:32:47] That's what you're talking about. What's that? Psychographics, that's what you're talking about. Hundred percent, man. Okay. That was one of my questions for you, actually. I can't even believe you brought it up. I want you to, I want you to actually explain that for people because I don't know [00:33:00] if most people understand what that means. [00:33:03] So it's situational awareness, right? I'll give you an example. I commonly teach the team here. I'm gonna use air conditioning. Even roofing, right? Like when I am going to make a large investment, a purchase, right? If I'm gonna spend $8,000 on a new system it's a commitment. [00:33:19] It's a lot of money. Let's be real. And it's gonna be a lot harder for me to just hand you eight k. It's different when I'm buying a candy bar from the grocery store for a dollar and change. We don't feel the impact. , for instance. Is my AC unit broken, or is it still working? Is it 120 degrees? [00:33:40] Is it 70, and the windows are open? What is the rush component? Do I have the ability to sit here at this laptop and do some research? If I'm looking for a Lenox system or a training unit, am I sipping on my coffee and just trying to feel like I'm doing my own education so that I can feel better about that tech experience that we just discussed? [00:33:59] [00:34:00] How I act in that situation is different than when I have a newborn baby in the home. It's 120 degrees in Phoenix, and The AC breaks. This is now an emergency, so what am I going to do? Everything changes psychologically. The rush factor comes in. I start using this device. All those people say, Hey, I scroll past the PPC ads on Google. [00:34:22] They stop scrolling past the PPC ads. They're panicking from this tiny screen, and they literally click the PPC ad, not even knowing what they clicked, because they just clicked the first guy on the list, right? Can you be here? Can you be here now? How much is it? Okay, I'll be glad we play 30 more dollars for that initial fee, and I would, because right now I just desperately need someone to come and I talk called two guys that are booked out for two weeks. [00:34:45] Get here now. So my entire. Changes 100%, which is where we have to be aware. When I go into Google, and I look at tools like Paper Click versus SEO or lsa, the situational components that we are describing [00:35:00] with each other vary dramatically. PPC starts to generate more leads in certain types of scenarios, and you can set it up so that the ads show at the right time on the right device type, right? [00:35:13] Like maybe I shouldn't push PPC ads on a desktop or a laptop computer in this exact example where I'm saying, Hey, if someone's in like a rush case and I'm going for the rush, lead them sitting down and opening up their laptop isn't really a rush type scenario. The cell phone, is that kind of like what you're asking me to describe? [00:35:31] Yeah, totally. Yeah, totally. Because yeah, it's so important to understand those things specifically. Alright. If, and this is such a good segue if let's just say I go hire ABC marketing company, and they say, Yeah, we're gonna do, we're gonna, we're gonna run traffic to your site, we're gonna get you leads. [00:35:51] I'm like, Great. We do plumbing, and we do HVAC. Cool. We can do that. All right, great. So here's where the conversation we just had comes into play. Are [00:36:00] you running traffic for emergency leads? Are you making sure that at my I'm on top of the page for Google? Or are you running? Are you sending me leads for service work? [00:36:08] Are you sending me leads for repair service work in re a whole house re-pipe is vastly different, right? Hot water heater and a whole HVAC you are totally different. . So this is why it's important if you are not consecutively meeting with your marketing agency on a regular basis. [00:36:27] You now understand why that is a problem. You literally just exposed to that because theoretically, what should be happening, Corey Wright, is if you are the client and IMD agency, realistically, we need to get together regularly. And I need to ask you things like Corey, how far out is your service tech booked? [00:36:43] Because if you're booked out three weeks, nobody's gonna wait three weeks for a repair, right? That's just not the case. If, in most cases, something's broken. Now it depends conditionally on what we're talking about, right? But theoretically, why am I running PPC ads for a service that if you can't get to it right away, you're gonna pay for the [00:37:00] click, and you're not going to convert? [00:37:01] Meaning it's not gonna result in. You should be shifting those marketing dollars and doing something in the area of your business where you've got quicker bandwidth times, right? Like maybe you've got a comfort advisor sitting around, and they can get to you within 48 or 72 hours, right? Okay, pour the money into a sales campaign. [00:37:18] That's funny. I'm actually doing a webinar in the C tomorrow morning, all about pay-per-click. PPC is your best friend because you can meet consistently and get an alignment on your goals and leverage it to the point that I'm trying to make SEO; you've got a little bit of a different component there, right? [00:37:34] Like it's the bang for the buck is the ultimate holy grail after time prevails. And it's like a tree. It grows and generates fruits of its labor, but you gotta keep watering it. And that's the analogy I use like PPC buys you the. By having some control and strategy to generate leads while you're waiting for the SEO to saturate and do what it's designed to do. [00:37:55] But to your point, absolutely, my man, like you're gonna have different areas of your company, and [00:38:00] your marketing agency can control things from the location. You could tell me, Hey, the average lifetime of this unit's 20 years; let's just say that 15, whatever you believe it is, it varies across the country based on the next of the year. [00:38:12] Sure. But if you turn around and say that, and I can easily pull a report that this neighborhood was newly constructed 15 years ago, doesn't it make sense for me to run a PPC campaign to that particular zip or set of radius around that neighborhood so that you are at the top of the page cap capitalizing on a probably higher ratio of change out. [00:38:34] You get what I mean? These are, I literally just had this conversation today, I said, actually a potential client. And I said, let me ask you, what is your, what do you make the most money on? Repipes? I said, Oh, that makes sense. I said, How much traffic do you, I said, Let me ask you a question. [00:38:49] How much traffic do you run to get re-pipes? We don't run any traffic. I said why don't you, why don't you geo fence a neighborhood? And I'll just use an example, as I [00:39:00] know, like out in Vegas, right? But you got, you're near Vegas hard water, or I don't know if it's called hard water, but your water's definitely different than it is in North Carolina. [00:39:08] It's in your hot water heaters. Last fraction of the time, Almost half the amount of time, like seven years. We're in Phoenix, but it's a similar environment. Yeah. I get what you mean. Yeah. So I may have; I actually forgot where I was going with that. Oh, I was asking him, and I said why don't you find, I said, why don't you just do a search and look at neighborhoods that are built in 1960 or below and just blanket them with a small ad saying that we could do your re-pipe your house. [00:39:36] Is that time or whatever. I said, Guess what, dude? You'll have every re-pipe in that neighborhood. Cause nobody else is doing that. A hundred percent. It just has purpose and intent. That's really what it is. It's like you can do the same thing By looking up the average income or the house values. [00:39:52] There are a lot of strategies you can do. And, to your point, to my point, like meeting with your marketing agency on a routine basis is key. You [00:40:00] shouldn't just be evaluating performance. You should strategically tell them, " Hey, I want to push this type of lead. I wanna scale back on that type of lead and give them this type of information. [00:40:08] Because they do have the ability to be strategic and help you drive call types where they can. Like it's possible. I'm glad you brought that up meeting with your marketing. That was one of my questions. How, All right. So how often? What's a good amount of time? Once a month, once every two weeks. [00:40:26] What's a solid amount of time where there shouldn't be much lapse if there, if things, a campaign goes sideways, Heaven forbid. Yeah. Yeah. So listen, I like the magic metric we like here is a month, but I want to elaborate, right? We meet with clients once a month to discuss results. [00:40:43] That doesn't mean that you can't shoot an email back and forth whenever the hell you want, right? And make tweaks and adjustments. But I say that cautiously because any season seasoned PPC analyst is going to also remind you that there is artificial intelligence involved. It's not like you. [00:40:59] [00:41:00] Whoever bids the most on a click wins, okay? The quality of the page can determine the amount of spend. For instance, if I got a complete trash landing page that the ad points to, the cost per click is going to be higher because the quality score of the page is lower. It's Google's way of saying, Hey, the user might have a bad experience going to your crappy website. [00:41:22] So just to cover my ass, I'm gonna charge you more for this click. So what you're really trying to do right is get a high-quality score so that you can get the cost per click as low as possible, but you're still bidding against your competition, right? If I've got three ads at the top, the quality score does have a component, but I still need to outbid the guy above me if I want to rank higher than him. [00:41:43] So, like all of that being said, the algorithm is there. To answer your direct question, how often do I like a month? But the reason I do that is that you need to make decisions with data. Yes. So I wanna elaborate on that. Is it because in [00:42:00] PPC, yes, like you have a lot of moving gauges and things that you can do, but let's be clear, you need enough data to populate and generate for you to observe a trend and really have a formalized decision. [00:42:13] Like you move the needle too much, you may have moved it prematurely, is essentially what I'm trying to say. But you need to give it time to saturate and really justify the decision that you're going to make. So I often tell clients like, I'm looking for two to three months to really get it going. [00:42:28] It's like a, the analogy I always use, you wake up a child like it's cranking and morning man he, she's gotta get their feet underneath of them and may wake up and, just get into the groove before they're even enjoyable to be around if ever. But, jokes aside, it really comes down to. [00:42:46] Let the wheels get spinning and see what it does before you prematurely make moves and adjustments. Because every time you reshift it, it's trying to relearn and rethink. And the key is to get it to find some [00:43:00] traction and then fine-tune and adjust it. So to answer the direct question again, I meet monthly performance-wise with my clients, but listen, like we're having conversations, some of them every other day, like weekly. [00:43:13] It happens. I tell clients to tell me anytime the board is a little light in one area versus the other. If it's g packed like it's booked out multiple weeks, like I just teach them, Hey, if you're a consumer, would you be willing to wait this long? Because if the answer's no, I should know. That's really So what, why is it important? Why is it important for a company to let you know when they're really heavy? Let's say they're doing, their techs are booked out, and they've got a ton of hot water heaters, right? But they've got texts that can do but re-pipe, right? [00:43:44] And so they're not utilizing these other techs for really bigger jobs cuz they're cranking out all these hot water heaters. They should contact you and say, Hey, we're heavy on hot water heaters. We need to move; I'm guessing we need to move some of our money to a different area. Which I think you were saying earlier [00:44:00] Yeah, that's exactly it, right? [00:44:01] Like you're just trying to control the bandwidth by what is the type of opportunity you're pushing through the advertising. Now let's be clear there are some caveats that, Like the risk you always run is like your consumer doesn't understand. You talk to your average Joe and say re-pipe, he's gonna scratch his head and be like, What does that mean? [00:44:18] I don't get it. Yeah. So then, what you have to think about is that guy is probably typing into Google Plumber Plumbing. Like he doesn't know specifically what he wants. And the thing with that right is if I target that ad, that word, there's just no way your digital marketing agency knows contextually what you're gonna get. [00:44:36] Let's be real like you want to target the ad because you want to generate the lead and you want to get the opportunity, but it's like you never know what you're gonna get a box of chocolates, will forest. Yeah. Unless you geofence an area that you know needs pre-pipes. That's the only way that you could, really. I'd guess that's the only way you could really track and measure something that specific, that niche. Yeah, and the geo-fence is a little different than pay-per-click, [00:45:00] but there's the same like the general concept of understanding, theoretically, how it works. [00:45:04] Like in PPC, when we target the keyword rather than necessarily just trying to target an area, put in specific job types and categories and things of that nature. The example might be in PPC, I can target an exact word. I can exclude a word. I could literally make it so that the ad only shows up if someone types in a letter word for word re-pipe and then say, this ad should not show up if someone types in a plumber and the cost of the word is gonna be higher or lower based upon the popularity of it, right? [00:45:33] If I've got barely anyone searching for the word re-pipe, it's not gonna cost much for me to target that because it's just not commonly utilized. Word amongst your consumer type on search engines. And just a side, this is a really important lesson when the, if you're an owner and you've got technicians, you got CSRs and they're talking to the customer, and I literally, I witnessed this not long ago, a guy, he, he said we need you to need to change out. [00:45:59] Your [00:46:00] angle stops. And I'm like. I'm sitting here, I'm dying inside. Cause I know damn well that customer has zero ideas about what an angle stop is. And so they're like, Yeah, I don't need two angle stops for 300 bucks. Get the hell out of the house. I'm like, Dude, did you, you think about what is, I said at the time I was like do you think they knew what an angle stop was? [00:46:18] What else could you have caught it? He said it was just a shutoff valve. I'm like, Just say shutoff valve. You don't say; I know you wanna sound important. And I wouldn't say this like a negative thing to 'em. I'm like, I know you went to school to learn all this shit and learn all these. [00:46:31] Terminologies, but. Leave that shit at home when you go or leave that at the door when you go in somebody's house, cuz they don't know any of that stuff. Yeah. As if I, when I put myself into consumer shoes, really gosh, I'm trying to remember who taught me this the other day. [00:46:44] Like, literally, I heard someone say this the other week, and it resonated with me so much. It's like you just dumb it down. Just tell me, if I was trying to be cheap and just get by this, if I was looking to I [00:47:00] guess what I'm trying to say right now is ask me more questions. What is my goal? [00:47:04] Am I staying in this house for five years? Am I staying in it for the rest of my life? Cuz sometimes, literally, what I want to know, Corey, is, Hey, what would you do if this was your mom's house? Yes. What would you do if you loved this person and you cared about them? What would you suggest? [00:47:19] If you actually gave a shit about this person. Now, if you're doing your job, you've convinced me you give a shit about me, right? But let's be real because sometimes that's all I want to know is when I ask you that, it means I care. I want you to care I want to do the thing you know that you are saying is in the best interest of someone you care about. [00:47:37] And then explain to me why, Like, why would you do that? That's the way that I want to hear it, man. I don't fuck what an angle stop is, right? That's right. Like again, to my point earlier, it just overwhelms me. It makes me sit here and say, Man, like you're talking to me about this stuff. I'm just trying to understand how long this is going to take. [00:47:56] Is this gonna be fixed? And are we gonna be okay? Like, when can you fix this spot? Do I need to [00:48:00] get a hotel? There are so many other things in my mind that I'm worried about. How much has this gonna cost? Can I afford it? So the minute you drop an angle stop term, or just a complex term on me, all it's gonna do is make me more frustrated. [00:48:11] I got a million other problems, man. I hired you. To simplify this, don't overcomplicate it. Yeah. And you gotta think that customer is most likely, potentially in distress or even, they're just thinking about so many different things, and they've already used up a lot of brain energy, let's call it on this problem. [00:48:30] And now you're making them think harder about the problem they don't wanna think about anyway. Yeah. That is not drawing you; it's not drawing you any closer to the sale, I promise you. Yeah. And again, these are all just opinions, like to each your own. And I think that you're gonna get a lot of people who may disagree with some of these theories. [00:48:48] But at the end of the day, my goal is, I always just try to think about. What would I do if I was angry in this situation? What would I do if I was intimidated or if I didn't trust anyone, or if I had all the money in [00:49:00] the world? Cause I think these are all different types of consumers that you're gonna deal with that are different. [00:49:04] But at the end of the day, my sole purpose is to try and think like all those consumers and then make sure that the clients of RYNO strategic solutions are growing. But the only way I can do that is to never count someone out. Like I have to think about every type of person, how they are, how they might be, not just what I personally think and some of the opinions that I'm sharing, right? [00:49:23] There are really just opinions. They're not facts, But that being said, I try to keep every type of consumer in mind because if I'm really gonna grow businesses and be the most reputable digital marketing agency in-home services, I use the keyword reputable, right? As CXO, experience is my key. [00:49:41] We don't look at the dollars here; we look at the experience; the dollars come organically. , we do things right. We genuinely care. We treat clients like their families. We want them to feel like we are a marketing agency right there under their arm and that we are conveniently ready and capable of helping them at all times. [00:49:59] And when I [00:50:00] say all this to you, the only way you're gonna successfully do that is by trying to be considerate and thoughtful of what these consumers are dealing with, how they're feeling, and how they might go into the search engines and interact with them before they make the choice of giving you guys a chance. [00:50:18] That's what it's about. I wanna, you're right. And one thing that I think is also really important when you think about inviting somebody into your house is like that's the most personal space in your whole life. And if you're the technician walking into the house, you should be grateful that the person allowed you in their house. [00:50:37] You're a. True. So true. You get memorized too, man. I love hearing about the unique differentiator. I'll challenge every listener to ask themselves that too. I've heard it. All right. The dog treats bring the dog treats for the dog. That's a good one, right? I think I heard one where they lay out a mat, literally, so that when you open the door, it's like this shining experience. [00:50:57] Here's your tech in his suit, standing [00:51:00] on the mat with the dog treat, right? But I would challenge you to ask yourself, like, how do you become the most memorable? Because if I'm gonna have three different guys pop into the door, right? The memorable one is the one who did something that made me feel special. [00:51:16] It was unique. It was different. They stood out. That's another thing I always like to call out too. , there are 10 of you. Why you, And I'm not saying like the traditional we take the best care of them. Cuz that's too vague, man. How, what specifically are you doing? It's like when I have an employee, and I say, Hey, what's your goal? [00:51:36] And they say, I'm gonna become smarter. How are you gonna do that? What is your strategy? Give me something that is measurable, not something that is opinionated. Challenge business owners. Think about that as contractors when they go into these homes. Like how can you truly do something like it's tangible? [00:51:53] That is legitimate; you're gonna go out there and do something, measure it, and be uniquely different from [00:52:00] everybody else in the valley. Just something I always do. I wish I could say I asked you to ask me that question cuz I'm actually gonna answer that question. Cause you love it. [00:52:09] You've done it perfectly because I'm, I'll give you and everybody else listening the answer to that question shut your mouth and listen to the customer. That's a really good point. That's how you make 'em feel valued, right? [00:52:22] And that's really the key is I think the greatest coaches in the world they're the greatest listeners, right? The greatest learners in the world and greatest listeners, right? You've got two ears and one mouth. Listen twice as much as you speak. I could say it a million different ways, but I would definitely note that one down. [00:52:39] Man. It's a great point. Yeah, I appreciate that. And it really is true, and this is something that I've not always been great at; active listening is really what we're talking about here. And just an I'll just we'll wrap up with this, the active listening is listening, not so you can respond, not so you [00:53:00] can tell people what is on your mind, but listen to respond to the person that's talking to you about what they're talking about. [00:53:07] And it's amazing if you take a step back sometime and pay attention, say how many people don't do that? It's pretty crazy. Oh yeah. I'd say even deep listening, I try to take it to a level in which I go, Okay, listening to respond is definitely not the goal here. And listening to listen is one thing, but I challenge you guys to take it even further. [00:53:29] And that's, listen to where you're hearing what they're not saying. I do think that there is a component. Listening at such a level in which you're really trying to decipher and see what isn't necessarily there, what is being said, think about every time you ever did an interview a, with a team member. [00:53:46] Listen, like that. Like literally listen and look for what's not being said or what is not there present. I think that if I could have this ambitious goal like to be the greatest listener in the world like we all have things we've gotta work on, [00:54:00] right? That would be a superpower worth having. [00:54:02] I wish that I could easily go and be that great of a listener at all times. It's tough. Humans. What is our attention span? It was something dramatic. I can't remember what the statistic is. Definitely takes a special person to be a great listener. Gosh, my wife is the best one that I know. [00:54:17] It's reason 884. Why I married her. I don't think my life has many choices, but be a good listener because I just I, I do talk a lot, I, it is something you have to train yourself on and anyhow, so I do wanna ask one last thing. So I do want you to; you guys have roof con coming up, right? [00:54:38] We do. You're gonna be doing some cool stuff at Roof Con. Personally, You're gonna be doing some stuff there. Can you tell us? Yeah, man, I'm excited about them, and thanks for bringing that up. Yeah. As I was telling you earlier like I'm an operations guy. I work a lot with the strategy here at RYNO. [00:54:51], one of my many roles is to understand Google, right? It's to really make sure the team's in alignment on what our actual strategies are going to be and how we're going to grow [00:55:00] these businesses. Using these search engines. So it's funny, anytime I go out to these shows, these trade shows, these events like I feel like I'm on a field day. [00:55:07] Like, I'm not in sales. I don't commonly go to these events. So when you see me at one, it's because we're there to educate. And that's a service. World Expo was so fun last week cuz, literally like the goal was to go in there and just teach people how to do things that we do, right? So that they don't need us, right? [00:55:20] But yes, to your point, Roof Con is, it's one of those opportunities. I'm getting the opportunity and the privilege to attend Orlando. Get out there with our VP of sales, Jeff, where he's got a keynote presentation. I'll be running a marketing panel just to try and share all the wisdom I can, especially about digital, and just help businesses accomplish their goals. [00:55:41] But I'll also be doing a breakout all about Google Maps. I could literally spend a whole episode on this query, but I would just tell everyone this, like Google Maps, it's the easiest. Free, 100% free tool that, if you just try, you can easily generate leads without the need [00:56:00] of a digital marketing agency. [00:56:01] And I'd love an $18,000 roof with zero cost just because I'm paying attention to Google Maps and following some of the steps I'm gonna share. For those of you that have been kind enough to sit through this past hour, I hope to see you at Roof Con. I'll be doing a breakout and giving you all of those tricks and step-by-step tutorials on what you can take back to your organization and how to do it yourself. [00:56:21] And a very easy way to look at a report and literally say, Hey, all those things Mike told me to do resulted in X number of new roots. Dude, that's awesome. That's probably the best thing that you could have said, because look, I, and I don't even know the information that you're talking about, but I'm super interested, so I can't wait. [00:56:38] I can't wait to hear you talk about this. It's gonna be dope, dude. Yeah, I hope you're in there, man. Sit in, I'll, and We'll make sure it's fun. If there's anything I can promise, it'll be entertaining, No doubt. No doubt. Listen, tell everybody where they can find you and all that good stuff. Any information you wanna tell everybody about you, yeah. [00:56:55] Yeah, man. So listen to our website RYNO s s.com. That's [00:57:00] r y n o s s.com. That's just to learn more about what we do and who we are. But this is my passion and like my, I literally sleep and breathe this stuff. I love having the ability to change the trajectory, not just of my employees here, but of businesses too. [00:57:18] I get that business owner, this is their life's work. And for them to put their trust and faith in us to help them grow it is a gift in itself. I'm blessed. So I say that to tell you guys, please don't ever hesitate to reach out to me directly; I literally will give you my email, direct email here. [00:57:31] It's m as in Michael Venidis, that's V E N I d I s@RYNOSS.com. And I'm always talking to stuff, Man. If you got some simple questions, don't hesitate to reach out and utilize me. It's literally a hobby. So you're not a burden. And I'm here to help, and I wanna see everyone succeed. That's what I love about life. [00:57:52] It's all about being positive and helping lift each other up. You're the man. I appreciate it, brother. Absolutely. Thank you so much for your time, Corey. Dude, this was [00:58:00] fantastic. Thank you so much. I appreciate you, man. We see ya. Relevant Links: Michael Venidis CXO RYNO Strategic Solutions mvenidis@rynoss.com https://wwwrynoss.com     You can TEXT Corey at 919.896.9999 or go to https://www.hvacplumbingsales.com   Please join my free Facebook group https://www.facebook.com/groups/thetradeschools  Follow me at: https://www.instagram.com/coreyberrier/ www.linkedin.com/in/coreysalescoach  9 Simple Steps to Sell More $H!T! http

Wolf and Luke discuss Chris Paul looking like his old self against the Warriors and the performances of Jock Landale and Deandre Ayton in the game. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Wolf and Luke discuss Chris Paul looking like his old self against the Warriors and the performances of Jock Landale and Deandre Ayton in the game. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Tonight's Topics: - Mario sounds like Chris Pratt in new movie - PlayStation games will wait at least a year before coming to PC - PlayStation eyes new investment for PC, mobile push - Sony isn't done with PlayStation games - Jim Ryan allegedly flew to Brussels to contest Xbox Activision Blizzard deal - PS5 reportedly jailbroken - Cyberpunk 2077 sequel announced - Dead Space costs $70 Thanks as always to Shawn Daley for our intro and outro music. Follow him on Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/shawndaley Where to find Throwdown Show: Website: https://audioboom.com/channels/5030659 Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/throwdownshow Twitter: https://twitter.com/ThrowdownShow YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/throwdownshow Discord: https://discord.gg/fdBXWHT Twitter list: https://twitter.com/i/lists/1027719155800317953

KASH PATEL SAYS THE FAKE NEWS MAFIA HAS COLLABORATED WITH GOVT GANGSTERS EVERY STEP OF THE WAY. THE DOJ & FBI HAVE NO CREDIBILITY BECAUSE OF THE ACTIONS OF MERRICK GARLAND, BILL BARR, ROD ROSENSTEIN AND CHRIS WRAY. BILL BARR IS A PRIME EXAMPLE OF THE DEEP STATE CORRUPT ACTOR. BARR HAD A CHANCE TO EXPOSE ALL THE UNLAWFUL AND CORRUPT ACTS OF THE FBI AND DOJ, INSTEAD HE CHOSE TO PANDER TO THE RINO'S AND RADICAL LEFT. HIS FAILURES ARE EXPONENTIALLY BIGGER THAN ANY OF HIS SUCCESSES.  GUEST: KASH PATEL, ATTORNEY & TRUMP ADVISOR

Chris and Jamie Bailey are marriage coaches running a marriage ministry called Expedition Marriage. Married for 27 years, Chris and Jamie shared hardships of their own leading them to where they are now–mending and strengthening numerous relationships day in and day out. In this episode, they share how their bond was formed and the challenges that came along. As they also give marriage advice and insights, they show what builds a strong partnership from the ground up.  Topics Covered 7:11 - Challenges they faced earlier in life  15:34 - Chris and Jamie shared their journey as a couple 19:52 - How Chris handled Jamie's intense emotions  28:04 - Where they lead people as a team 32:39 - Chris and Jamie share stories and enlightenments from couples they serve.  38:10 - How Chris and Jamie keep their relationship strong Chris and Jamiehttps://www.instagram.com/expedition_marriage/?hl=en (Follow Chris and Jamie on Instagram) https://www.facebook.com/expeditionmarriage.org/ (Like Chris and Jamie on Facebook) Resources Mentionedhttps://expeditionmarriage.org/ (Expedition Marriage) https://frontrowdads.com/ (Front Row Dads ) https://expeditionmarriage.org/newlywed-couples-devotional/ (Newlywed Couple's Devotional)

INTRODUCTION: Barry Bowen is the Staff Investigator at Trinity Foundation, a nonprofit organization that investigates religious fraud, theft and excess. From 2005 to 2010 Bowen served as one of the third-party whistleblowers assisting the U.S. Senate in its investigation of six TV ministries.  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      A Look Into The Latest Lakewood Church Protest·      My Ire Against The Church For It's Apathy·      When Does Life Begin? Is It Any Of Our Damn Business?·      How Churches Resemble Organized Crime·      How Witchcraft Can Be Used To Grow A Church·      When Do Preacher's Become Corrupt?·      Addiction To Power·      Informants Actually Can Be Useful (Never Thought I'd Say That)·      Preachers + Fantasy + Roleplay ·      Lack Of Accountability For Preachers·      More Money Is Embezzled By Religious Leaders Than What Is Spent On World Missions – Est. $60 Billion  CONNECT WITH BARRY: Website: https://trinityfi.orgTwitter: https://twitter.com/barrybowen  CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixPinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonEmail: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: [00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Hello? Hello. Hello everyone. Our favorite staff investigator from the Trinity foundation over there in Texas is back today for part two of our T spieling series on these churches. Y'all his name is Barry Bowen. And this episode, we're going to get deeper into the scandalous nature of some of the world's most well known preachers and churches. Y'all. So in this episode here, we're going to take a look into the latest Lakewood church protocol. I'm going to talk about my I, or that I [00:01:00] hold against the territory's apathy. I'm going to talk about how criminal informants can actually be useful in investigating churches. I'm also going to tell you how witchcraft can be used to grow a church. And then Barry's going to break down for us to have more money is actually embezzled by religious leaders each year than what it's spent on world missions, which is estimated to be something around $60 billion. Yes, bitch, 60 billion.Take a list and please.Welcome everyone to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast. This is my second interview with. World renowned. And in some circles, infamous, especially if you lead a mega church Barry Bowen, he is the staff private investigator, the Trinity foundation, which is an organization that exists to eke out all the dirt that churches do both small and great, and to help bring to light the [00:02:00] truth so that you can make a more informed decision about the people who you choose to follow.Barry, how are you doing today? Barry: I am doing well. And I've got an alarm going off. I have to turn off De'Vannon: done. I can't be near it. Oh no, there we go.Hey, at least I know that you, weren't going to forget this meeting one way or the other. You have the alarm set and everything. I appreciate that. So on our last. At our last interview, we talked about Hillsong church and we got into like an overview of the church corruption. We talked about how you got into being a staff investigator and everything like that.And the passions that drive you. And we talked a little bit about Joel Olsteen, Lakewood church. Everyone knows my history there of serving fiercely in the volunteer ministry. They are applying for a job only to be discarded from the ministry for not being straight up. They found out on my MySpace page, where [00:03:00] I had on my scaffolding clad outfit, which was nothing but underwear.And I was talking about them on my space page, how I hang on in Montrose and just the gay district and Houston and how I wasn't straight. And then they said it was such a scandal and they fired me from volunteering and it was, I was all heartbroken and everything for years. And now here I am to clap back at Lakewood church.And so many other churches and by providing knowledge and information, so we're going to get right into this again. And now the website, I want to tell everyone is Trinity F I that org, I believe that stands for Trinity foundation international, that it incorporate it. You know? So Trinity FII that org, if you want to research more about Barry, he has an amazing blog on there where he really gets very granular, like a good investigator would.And he gives you some gross detail about the things that he's discovered [00:04:00] about these churches over the years. So since we're talking about Lakewood church, and since this just happened, I want to just get right into it. So these girls decided to show up. And show out in the middle of the service. Other than the video, I saw Sheldon actually down in the front theater seating you know, a few rows back from the pool pit from a podium.And then I also saw them on like their microphones or megaphones or whatever outside doing a protest at Lakewood church. This is, these are people who are pro abortion girls who were pro abortion. My body, my choice is what they were saying. What is your take on this? Barry: Well they opened up themselves to litigation and possible prison time.There's a federal law that makes it illegal to to trespass inside churches. This goes back to the 1980s, early nineties. There [00:05:00] was a group of pro-life protesters affiliated with an organization called operation rescue. They did massive sit, sit ins. Thousands of people were arrested in these.And I'm on the other side there's act, act up was the aids coalition to unleash power. They were advocating for more money for aids research. They were holding protests and they actually entered churches. And because of that when bill Clinton became president Congress passed face that's an acronym, it stands for freedom of access to clinic entrances act.Basically it made it a federal offense to do a sit in an abortion clinic or in our church and do the same thing. So I don't know if the da and Houston and Harris [00:06:00] county will press charges or how they'll go about doing that. But It could be in trouble for doing that. I don't know of Lakewood pouring lots of money into pro-life organizations.Joel Osteen for the most part tries to avoid topics like sin and politics. I mean, it does, that does happen. He does get interviewed and then it looks like I'm a deer caught in headlights. I didn't want that question to be asked, but he likes to talk about the joy of the Lord all the time, but that doesn't prepare people for human suffering and other topics.There's not a random out Joel Osteen. So the De'Vannon: girl who did the the protest, her, her whole point was like this. She was like, you know, you want to stop me from getting an abortion and keep me from getting [00:07:00] critical health care and interrupt my life. So I'm going to show up here and interrupt your life.That's that's what she was saying is the why they presented themselves in the middle of the sanctuary, you know, in the middle of the service, he was like, you fucked up my shit and my fucked up. Yo shit. Barry: So, so the background is the state of Texas. The state legislature is passed some pro-life legislation and then attempt to criminalize most abortions.So that's part of the background that we didn't really mention earlier. I, there court challenges, I don't know how it's all going to turn out.De'Vannon: On the one hand, you know, I mean, I don't, you know, I, I agree with you, Joe, really. Doesn't like to get his hands too dirty, you know, he answers with those non-answers, you know, after you asked after a reporter, [00:08:00] asked him a question after he answers it, usually I'm like, okay, I don't know what the fuck you just said.You know, he's very like very like a politician. He doesn't really answer the fucking question. I think he, I don't really know what he said. I read an article that said he's made his stance clear on abortion rights, which I don't think he's the sort of person who's going to like be on the side of the woman.So I don't know. I'm all for like the protesting outside the building, you know, interrupting the, interrupting the service to do it. I get her anger and everyone was online was like, yeah, you go bitch. You do that shit. You know, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck Lakewood. Fuck Joe. And I just want people to be careful that you're not getting into a realm of catering to anger and negative energy as we come back, what churches and politicians are trying to do, but I get where she's [00:09:00] coming from.She's like, I don't know what else to do. I'm not being heard. So I'm going to show up here and make this whole big scene. And at least I'll get someone's damn attention, you know, this way. And it's unfortunate that women have been put in this position where they feel like they have to do this. And it's unfortunate that religion is so tied with politics.You know, laws are being made to effectively make someone obey God and not sin in. And my problem, I, my, I R I have towards churches is that they're not vocal about this churches, in my opinion, should be, should be combating politicians and telling him to leave religion alone. You know, they should be at the very least saying, you know, let God deal with people, but it's not for us to try to force righteousness upon people, whether you agree with abortion or not.You know, I believe churches should open their fucking mouth for more than asking for money and just rosy stories. Barry: Not him. TOF was a very prominent atheist was a [00:10:00] columnist I believe wrote from the village voice publication. That was an alternative newspaper and the New York city. And he was a pariah to the to the left because.He was an atheist that opposed abortion. So what happens is a lot of people don't know this, there are some atheists that also opposed abortion. So it's not just a religious issue and for some people I mean, so when does life begin? That is an interesting question for me. And so when you look, when science looks at it, if they were to find a one cell organism on, on Mars, that'd be rejoice and we found life on another planet. And then they'll say, well, this inside a womb is is parasitic or it's it's a clump of cells.It's not a life. I mean, I think there's a lot of [00:11:00] disingenuousness I understand the argument about bodily autonomy. In the case of Texas this, the state legislature passed legislation that would have had a criminal I'm sorry sanctions against the woman that had abortion, so punishment for the woman.So that really upset a lot of people on the that are pro choice. De'Vannon: I, the way this whole argument comes down to people being nosy and not minding their own damn business. And whether life starts here, there are tether in the wound. Once the kids are born or somewhere, you know, the Lord hasn't spoken that and you know why the Lord hasn't spoken it because it's none of our fucking business.And if he wanted us to know that, that he would have said so, so everybody could have their own hypothesis, but at the end of the day, [00:12:00] I agree with the woman. It's her body. It's her fucking choice. You cannot make, you can't help her have the baby. You can't help her. You know, you, you're not there for any of it.And so, and by you, I mean, whoever the fuck it is, he wants to dominate. It seems to me, people get caught up in their feelings about certain things. When people get very emotional over children, you know, and stuff like that. But, you know, I'm gonna warn people about the nature of hypocrisy and the trick of the devil, which is to get you to focus.On things that you find to be fault in other people you're not focusing enough on yourself and what you can do to fix yourself. So are you worried about the gaze and wanting to get married and a woman who wants to get an abortion? You got your own things that you ought to be dealing with, but you only have so much time in one lifetime.And if you're going to invest heavy amounts of time into critiquing other people, then you're not going to properly assess yourself to get yourself ready to stand before God. So I counsel and warn people to leave people [00:13:00] alone. Barry: Well, and again, this is one of those difficult situations because of some of the court precedents.For example, there are men that have attacked pregnant women. Ex-boyfriends that don't want them to have a child. Things like this have happened. Women have been brutalized and then miscarried right after. And then it's been taken to court. Did they kill a child? And then imagine a jury ruling that this was murder and then, oh, but guess what a woman decides to have an abortion.It's not, so, I mean, you've got a conflicts in the legal system. It really is. Challenging. How do you be consistent? De'Vannon: Well, all I know is this, [00:14:00] I got to stand before the judgment seat myself in it, and I don't feel like I have the luxury to spend time critiquing other people. I just don't, Barry: you know, Bible says the way that we judge others is how we ourselves will be judged.So I, I want to err on the side of showing compassion. So I support Organizations that make that provides support for women going through an unwanted pregnancy. I mean, there are a variety of things that churches can do. They can provide baby formula. They can provide the services, things that women need that are going through that have a child they're, they're struggling financially.Women need a sup often need a support network. They need to help them [00:15:00] people to help them with basic necessities, et cetera. And so there's so much the church can do besides politics.De'Vannon: Yeah. But however, they have become like corrupt and stuff like that. I wish the churches were more practical and actually did useful stuff. You know, like what you were saying earlier, you know, with the way way Joe preaches and you know, like he has such a positive message, but what he says is it really useful if you are going through like a serious problem, you know, maybe that's his message and that's the way he's supposed to preach.And I mean, I mean, God bless you. If you live such a life, you know, such a life where a nice rosy flowery message, like that is all you need, you know, but those of us who have been through like serious problems, but who are going through serious problems, we need a meatier, a stronger word than that. And so, but you know, but you know, but good on you.If you, if [00:16:00] you haven't had harsh problems in life and that's all you need, you know, it's a brand, it's a market. Maybe that's all that they're designed to do. But I still wish the church would actively do more because they take such public stances against some much, and yet they don't necessarily do a whole lot.Like when I was a member at Lakewood for all those years and stuff like that, I wouldn't have, like, if I would have needed help to pay a light bill or, or some sort of trouble would have come upon me, I wouldn't have felt like I could have gone there to ask for assistance. I wouldn't have known where to go to ask for assistance, you know, and I just feel like churches should, should do more than give us encouraging messages and shit like that.Barry: I can talk about that. Some, there are some churches will actually have a benevolence fund. So part of the church budget will actually go to helping people in need. And some churches you'll have deacons in the Bible [00:17:00] deacons. They took care of widows. So so often in churches that have deacons, this'll be a role that as wasted upon them.Like the, the church my dad had worked at many years ago, they had a food bank. And so if somebody needed food, they could go to the church and would provide a sack of food are more than that. We would sometimes help pay for somebody's electric bill. They couldn't pay their electric bill, things like that.Generally the church would have a limit to the amount of money that can be spent. And those are safeguards to be in place. So it's not abused. Some churches will work together. A group of churches will give money to the salvation army. And so then the salvation army runs programs for housing and the homeless.There are other and I live in the Dallas area and [00:18:00] there's an interfaith network that runs a large homeless shelter here. I don't know much about Lakewood's Efforts in this area, because number one, I've never seen a budget for them. I don't see where the money goes. And so this is something that I want to see churches being more transparent about is where is the money going?I believe donors should check out organizations and before giving on a regular basis, if it's just a one-time donation of $20, you don't need to check out an organization. But if you're giving hundreds of dollars year after year after year or more, check out the organization to see where the money's going, De'Vannon: they don't like what doesn't publish, like say an annual report.Like I think I saw like maybe Joyce Meyer ministries or someone like that. They make it seem like if you request to see where the money is going, that it's available. Have you ever requested it from Lakewood? Barry: I have not. [00:19:00] I have not. Some churches are a members of the evangelical council for financial accountability, and that is one of their requirements help ever.There's a loophole there. If they believe that you're harassing churches, whatever they don't, you don't have to provide documentation. So I have I know someone that runs the website, check my church. She Sarah, she contacts a bunch of churches and I asked for financial information and a lot of them don't provide it.I mean, it's a problem. De'Vannon: Well, I'm, I'm not surprised, you know, churches just don't. They have all this shit to say there was a time that I had emailed before I learned how to research the Bible for myself. I had emailed a bunch of different churches to ask them like their stance on homosexuality and things like that.Most of them wouldn't reply, you [00:20:00] know, it's, you know, personally and privately to somebody, but they, you know, they have such like a bold message to say about everything from the platform. But I'll say this though. I know Lakewood, at least during my tenure there, they spend a hell of a lot of money on Chick-fil-A.So that must at least be a few million in the budget because I was there at least 10 hours a week and got damn the amount of trays I saw Chick-fil-A plat or swerving by there on the carts was just ridiculous. I didn't know that Chick-fil-A was such an anti LGBTQ organization, you know, at the time, I don't know.They always have been, so that's just one thing I wanted to, to tell you, Barry, they, they do support Chick-fil-A intensive. Barry: A lot of Christians do Chick-Filet they give money to different Christian causes, Christian organizations. They have I believe the foundation or, or their [00:21:00] it's corporate sponsorship that how they fund it, it may come straight from the company, not the foundation.I'm not sure. De'Vannon: Yeah. So for those of you who don't know, Chick-fil-A hobby lobby, you know, they are a staunch supporters of anti LGBTQ plus organization. So we do not support the hobby lobby. We do not support the Chick-Filet, no matter how cute the dam eat more chicken with the misspelled buck and chicken word billboards, the cows, trying to get you to eat all the chicken and shit, you know?Fuck Chick-fil-A. So. At some of your writings, you, you feel like churches are a lot like crime organizations and things like that. What similarities have you found? Barry: In the European union, they have adopted a legal definition of what is organized crime. And they've got like a list of, I think, 16 factors.[00:22:00] And there are, if I recall correctly, there are four mandatory on the list. And then if four of six and then you meet several others, then you automatically are defined as organized crime. So number one, organized crime has to involve more than one person. So if it's just one person operating by themselves, it's not organized crime.And generally they'll have very specialized tasks. By the way, Wikipedia has an article on organized crime. And if you go there, it lists them says they activity must be over a prolonged or indefinite period of time. They use discipline or control. They perpetrate serious offenses, they use violence or intimidation.They operate on the international or transnational level. They engage in money laundering, exert influence on politics, media, [00:23:00] public administration, judiciary, or economy, and they're motivated by profit or power. So those are a really good list. And when I look at some of these televangelist organizations, there's been a lot of, of money laundering.I mean, this is information coming to us from informants I've found number of related organizations of televangelists and the offshore leaks database. There are drug trafficking has actually taken place on at least one televangelists jet that came out and a foyer request that I submitted to the FBI.Because of the details, other details in that report, I'm not at Liberty to say what, who it is. There may be actually [00:24:00] several televangelists that have. Drug traffic. And in fact I suspect more than one the number of crimes they commit. I mean, there's texts of Asian. One of our informants basically described these televangelist jets as laundering tubes.We know that this televangelist have collected money in other countries and not declared it when they came into the United States. So if you carry money across international borders, are you leave them on the U S with cash? If it's over a certain amount of money, you have to declare it to do not do so you can get in trouble for that.When you deposit money in a bank. If you deposit say $9,900 in one bank, then go to another bank [00:25:00] on the same day and deposit $2,000. You've committed a crime. This is called structuring. The federal government prohibits people from trying to evade this reporting requirement. So anytime over $10,000 is on deposit into a bank, 2000 cash and has to report it.There are documents called suspicious activity reports. And unfortunately there's this bank secrecy act, which prohibits the banks from releasing some of this or the government from releasing this information. I think it would actually. That some of the televangelists are involved in international money laundering, but we're not at Liberty to attain some of those SARS suspicious activity reports.I'm gonna tell you either way [00:26:00] organized crime. There are several televangelists that have had links to mafia. In the course of my research, I've found two televangelists that receive loans from mafia. So one of the ways the mafia made a lot of money was through something called loan sharking.They would offer high interest loans, the people that banks would pass on. And so one of those people was Rex Humbard. He was a televangelist pioneer in the fifties and sixties. He he got money from one of the New York five families through actually one of the unions. So the mafia to cover unions at that time, it was.And what happened was the unions had a huge pension funds. And so by getting their people in and taking over the unions, that access to all this money that was invested on the behalf of the [00:27:00]union employees and I'm so alone was made to Luxembourg church ministry and Tilton, Robert Tilton and other televangelists.He he was involved in getting a loan from Harmon Beeb or BB. I'm not sure how you pronounce his name. But this guy had a working relationship with Carlos Marcello who was the mafia leader of the new Orleans mafia. So, I mean, there's really weird stuff like that. There are additional Remmers that have not been able to verify.I keep looking for evidence, but I've not found it. But, and there was a guy named Mickey Cohen that he was involved in Sunday up a casino in Las Vegas. So he worked on the west coast and Mickey Cohen was involved in the mafia. [00:28:00] He went to a Billy Graham crusade. He a former person that worked for the mafia became a committed Christian, left the life of crime behind and try witnessing to him.And so Mickey Cohen He decided I'll try Christianity. And but he did not want to leave his crime behind because that made a lot of money. And in 1980, I'm sorry, 1957, the New York times wrote a story about it. And so th this Christian friend of his challenged, Cohen's like, well, why are you going back to crime?He says, they're a Christian, but ballplayers Christian Cowboys, Christian politicians, why not a Christian gangster? And so that, that quote is just crazy, but I really do think a number of these people operate like gangsters. Hmm. De'Vannon: So [00:29:00] the thing about that, that stands out to me is the way that we can use.Righteousness as a motivation to do just about anything in our heads. So I even heard where LATAM or Putin believes that this war, that he's raging is the will of God. Like he feels like he's doing that. You know, it reminds me of when saw before you became, Paul was out persecuting, the people who believe in Jesus, because he felt like it was righteous.You know, people can get in their emotions about, just about any fucking thing and believe that the ends justify the means and everything is okay. And cool. So they've used mafia money to bankroll these churches, but you know, publicly they're going to speak against crime and stuff like that. And you see, this is why it does do deal.We, it does due diligence for us to know the people we're supporting. I've heard it said before. [00:30:00] Like, did, you know, witchcraft, w I talk about witchcraft and stuff like that quite a bit, because it's real that I've been a victim of that before, but there is there certain churches and things like that that I have heard of where like the pastor, you know, wanted to have a high following of people, a large number of people.And so, you know, there's a, there's a, there's a spell or a ritual or whatever you want to call it, that can be done in order to, to, to, to shift the tide in your favor. It, so that you will grow a large audience of people, which involves human bones. And you know, so you don't really, you know, just as something big and popular and flashy, the roots of that thing might be quite dirty.You know, you never really know what you're dealing with. And when we talk about these preachers in these pastors and everything, I like to remind people, you know, you don't really know them, you know, when they show up to preach there at. [00:31:00] You know, so they're showing you a certain side of them and aspect, you know, they have their game face on, you don't know what them people are doing and saying when they're not around you, you know?And so you don't really, really know them. And so I'm wondering what your thoughts are. On exactly when pastors become corrupt. I know some of them go into it with, you know, just with the corrupt intentions from the beginning, they just want to open a church for a year or two, milk it for all of his worth and then closed the bitch down and, you know, hit the Vegas baby or whatever the case may be.And I think some of them started off good. Then they became bad from when I was a drug dealer. One of the things that surprised me the most was how addicted to power over people on became what I, when I came to a point where I had influence over people, it changed me. And from that experience, I learned that whenever a person has sycophantic people around them and people, you know, cooling after them and stuff like that.[00:32:00]Before, you know, it, it can begin to corrupt and alter your motives in the power you have over people and the knee to now keep them around. You can influence the decisions that you're making before you were aware that that's happening to you. And so these churches now have all of these millions of dollars and all of these followers, they have to keep those people in order to maintain their lifestyle and what they're doing.And so when I hear preachers talk, it's almost like they're trying to toe the line and that kiss everybody off and stuff like that. So their word is not pure, you know, anymore. What are your thoughts on. And then they give you a specific example of that. When I was reading on the Lakewood riots, you know, they were, they had asked them about the whole gay thing.And at the end, I think Joel said that he would definitely never marry somebody because that's against his beliefs, but they let him in Victoria would attend the gay wedding. You know, if their friends got married, that's what the [00:33:00] article said, you know, that's different than what they've said previously, because before they were just like against all the gay shit, you know, all of our gay beauty and glory entirely, so answers like that, make it seem like what a preacher says, shifts with the temperament of the world rather than just being a standard.So what do you think about when do preachers become corrupt in how their message has changed by about by trying to maintain their lifestyle? Barry: Yeah, I mean, it varies from preacher to preacher. Some of the people that I investigate. I think they were always frauds. Unfortunately it's, you can get into legal trouble sometimes if you name names and you say they're guilty of fraud and they've never been convicted of fraud.So there, I mean, there's one specific [00:34:00] person I have in mind, but I'm not going to say the name that I don't believe for a minute that he believes anything. He preaches, I'm convinced it's totally a scam, everything he says. And I've watched videos where he preaches. So a little over a week ago, I was on Facebook and Facebook recommended an article to me, and it was about a expert on syrup killing and this This expert.And I don't remember his name. He's living in the U S and France. He told many stories, He he had claimed to the interviewed over 70 serial killers. And, but there's this fans of the true crime genre. They just ate up his articles and books, his speeches, but some people started raising questions.And so there was a Facebook group that was formed to [00:35:00] investigate and, and they, they went in all in and they discovered numerous lies. So I was reading this article and I came across a term that I had never seen before. Methadone, many. And the Amidah maniac, they tell, constantly told tales about themselves.They're lying habitually, and there's a word called pathological liar. And it's a clinical diagnosis. There are people that lie all the time and some of these preachers are a lot like that. And when you construct a mythology about yourself, sometimes they'll tell fanciful stories about their past.And what happens in with a liar is you tell a lie and then you have to tell another lie to cover the previous lie, and it becomes a habit. And when you become a perpetual liar, [00:36:00] you're no longer authentic. And I think this is a serious problem that we have not really explored much a planning to write about it more in the future.But I think this is actually how some of these people got started a white lie, a little lie, they tell, and then they have to tell another and another. And so what happens is because of that, they, but they stopped being authentic. And because of that, their moral compass is shattered. They I think line can actually be a precursor to becoming a criminal.And so this is a new line of thinking that I'm exploring. There's one person that I'm looking at that we actually had an informant contact us and said that this pastor's in. He doesn't believe the Bible at [00:37:00] all. He laughed about the Bible on a private setting. And so I'm not going to say who the preacher is.I'll leave it to other people to be curious. I mean, you know, I tell you off the camera of it. There's there are people like this, that it's a scam and this preacher preaches the prosperity gospel is well-known in prosperity gospel circles. Yeah, I mean, there's a book, there's a Bible verse about crime when it, or sin, when it, it lust desire.It's not just talking about sexual to talking about other things. And I forget the exact context in the verse, but when we desire something that maybe we shouldn't have Greed. I mean, you look at the 10 commandments grieve, do not [00:38:00] even desire your neighbors ox or whatever it says in that verse.Yet the Bible says we're not to be lovers of money, but you look at the prosperity gospel preachers of the bunch of them are lovers of many. That's almost all they preach about sermon week after week after week. So some people, I think they compromised there are priests they're stories of priests and pastors that developed a gambling habit and because of gambling losses, they embezzled funds.So maybe that's what led to them getting involved in crime. There are pastors that had a flying, got a woman pregnant then, well, what are we gonna do? We'll help pay hush money. And so. Jim baker is not the only person to ever pay us money, but somebody that was not a wife that he was involved sexually with.[00:39:00]But I mean, things like this happen and I think that's another way it can lead to criminal and other bad activities is not being faithful to espouse. There are people that will blackmail you and there, if someone gets pregnant that's how are you going to take care of that child?I mean, they don't want their church congregation knowing that they've done this. I mean, I've heard of pastors pressuring women to have abortions. They got them pregnant. I mean, that's related a little bit to what we spoke about earlier. But yeah, so lying, I think leads to crime can lead to crime.There, the Bible talks about the fruits of spirit and one of the fruits of the spirit is self-control and I'll be the first person to admit that I had been lacking in this area in my life at times. It's a hallmark of people that have [00:40:00] addictions and some of the pastors that we investigate, I suspect of having addictions.I mean, I don't have the proof then I'm not going to name names for that reason specifically. But there are some that have taken various narcotics, some for 'em because of pain. And I don't know when a person lacks self-control they can create a lot of.De'Vannon: Yeah. So what, what you're saying is in there, the lack of lack of self-control besides getting strong out on dope, you're talking about the superfluous lifestyles in general. So yeah, [00:41:00] so Barry: that's for me and self-control, I want to write a book, but I'm a natural procrastinator. I've been, I've struggled for years.And completing things that I start. This is just one of my, one of my weaknesses. And so I mean, there are a lot of poles, a lot of American struggle in the area procrastination. And that's actually another topic that I might want to write a book about because one of the areas where I've had struggled, there's not much written about it.And that's the topic of maladaptive dangerous. I'm the person that can daydream for hours and just not even realize it. And suddenly where did the day go? It's wild, but very little is written about that in the literature on procrastination. And so a person that lives in a fantasy world, imaginary world, what if your air, your mind is going in the area of [00:42:00] human sexuality?What if this becomes sexual fantasy sexual role playing? There's all kinds of problems that can happen in that realm. I think and I've not seen the research for this, but I would not be surprised if some rapists, some sexual predators. They struggle with maladaptive daydreaming in the area of sales show, fantasy and sexual roles.There, there are a variety of things that I want to explore that are going to make people uncomfortable. And when I see some of these preachers preach the way they engage in storytelling makes me think that there is fantasy or role playing involved.De'Vannon: You're [00:43:00] saying that they, that they're losing touch with reality. Barry: Yes, De'Vannon: let's see. The thing about that is the people around them are not challenging them because, you know, we're not taught in churches to challenge authority and they're probably not truly encouraging themselves to be checked and challenged either.So, so I can see how our preacher can devolve in the middle of their congregation because you know, preachers are not really accountable to anyone. The government doesn't hold them to account of. People already have them in high esteem because there's supposed to be clergy or whatever. So they really are some of the most unaccountable people in the world.Then when you don't have accountability, you can go buck wild, you know, quite easily, you know, before you even realize it. But you know who, you know, who really is going to check them, you know, who, you know, that's what you're trying to do through your organization and thank God for it. But those people don't operate from [00:44:00] the perspective of fear.You know, they don't think they don't think something's going to happen to them. If they do something that's not right. They know that no one's going to come and get them, you know, likely, you know, and I was thinking this morning about, you know, to your point about how they get superfluous. And they, you know, they rack up all this money, all this fortune, all this fame.And I was just considering, you know, the prophets of old and the preaches from the Bible days, you know, a lot, usually those people weren't very well. You know, outside of the Kings, you know, the Kings of the entire nation of Israel, they weren't rich, you know, and they were not popular, you know, easy keel Steven, you know, the, you know you know, Isaiah, Jeremiah, no, those prophets were sent to argue with the nation of Egypt, Israel with the people were supposed to be God's people.They weren't really sent to argue with the world. You know, a lot of the contention in the Bible is happening, you know, in God's nation, you know, his internal [00:45:00] conflict, but generally speaking, the, the great preachers we think about were not popular people. They were not liked, you know, they were heavily persecuted and stuff like that.And you flip the script today and the preachers today are well received everywhere. They go, they have celebrity access, they have money and power and everything like that. But from the beginning it was not. So, and so I don't know. What do you think about that? The contrast there. Barry: The, on the Bible, there's a verse in second Thessalonians.It talks about the falling away of the church, the church descends into apostasy. So the church becomes, becomes corrupt from within it's a prophecy from scripture. And I believe we are witnessing that today. It's been happening for centuries and some would say the church has always been corrupt. There's always because centers are involved in the church.When you look at [00:46:00] early Christian literature, this is not in included in the Bible, but the dedication was like a little booklet, whatever it, it was instructions for early Christian leaders and it prohibited the pastor from begging for money if they did. So they're considered to be a false.I mean, people don't today in the church, most people have never even heard of the dedication that I don't know, even know it exists. And unless you are to take a church history course in a seminary, you probably have never heard of it. So I mean, this is one of the problems that Christians don't know their history.The Bible says about false teachers or teachers in the church that they will tell people what they want to hear. They'll scratch their itch years. And I'm convinced you see that [00:47:00] with Joel Osteen, big time. And these prosperity preachers that serve like life coaches, always telling people you can be prosperous if you give money.I am convinced they're telling people what they want to hear. People that Preach that it's not God's will that you ever be sick? I'm again, I'm convinced they're telling people what they want to be here. Most people, not, not everybody believes what they say, but it's, it's a problem.There are the Bible talks about the full counsel of God, and you're not getting that in a lot of churches. So, I mean, there's two different types of preaching style. There is expository preaching where you go verse by verse and then there's the nomadic preaching or a person does topic by [00:48:00] topic. I mean, I've listened to preachers, do both like a pastoral preach that entire book of the Bible week after week, going through verses to complete one chapter and then the next, then the next, and by doing that, you can cover a broad basis.But in today's church, a lot of preachers preach on topics that they feel comfortable with, or they prefer speaking on some churches that just churches they'll have what is called stewardship month. In the month of February, they'll preach about money. Some churches it's a regular pattern.They preach about Eastern your Easter and so on. But it's very easy for a pastor just to stick with what makes them comfortable. And it's not a good thing. You, a pastor should want to make [00:49:00]people uncomfortable. They should want to speak the truth in season and out of season. I mean, if you really believe the truth can set people free from bondage and you should be proclaiming it all the time.And Christianity, it teaches that sin separates us from God. And so, I mean, this should be a a thing, but you hear less and less about scent. They'll want to talk about love or prosperity or happiness. And, and there's more to it. I mean, the Bible talks about suffering. The Bible talks about the fruits of the spirit.The Bible talks about parents being godly role models for their kids. I mean, there, there's so many topics that you can, a preacher can preach on or, or they can just start with one book and then preach to another. And, or you can do that in a [00:50:00] small business, a small Bible study. If your people were to do that, I think they would encounter the verses that offer a proper critique to the prosperity.God. The Bible says that about church leaders, that they must not be lovers of money. Well, how many of these prosperity preachers are gonna quote that Bible verse or read it to their congregation? De'Vannon: Right. Barry: You need them to be well-rounded in the word. The Bible says to study, to show yourself approved and to God, a worker that rightfully not ashamed dividing the word of truth. I just botched that verse. I know it, but it's in, I think second Timothy I might be wrong, but study to show yourself approved under God.When I was a teenager, I'm [00:51:00] at a new year's resolution to read the entire Bible. And so I did not finish read the Bible that year. I made it a new year's resolution this next year and then failed again. Third year I made that in a resolution. I read through the entire book. I'm convinced. I never would've read the entire Bible, had it not been a goal.And so again, a lot of Christians, I think they go to church to get, be spiritually fed. They don't feed themselves though at home. I mean, how many people this week, that claim to be Christians will actually open a Bible away from church and read it. And that's where you really learn the word is when you study it on your own.De'Vannon: Yeah. I be telling people that all the time, like we shouldn't need to go to a church building to feel the closest to God when I was an immature Christian. I used to think that I had to go, you know, running the church and be at Lakewood or wherever. But specifically at Lakewood, because they've had the most.I would [00:52:00] say intricate worship experience there. And so I would think that I had to be, you know, in the main sanctuary at Lakewood church before I could actually feel close to God, that was immature thinking, you know, now I know better. I actually feel closer to God when I'm not at church, which is how it's supposed to be.You know, when you, when you read through the Bible and everything like that, when the Lord is dealing with several characters throughout the whole thing, you know, I want to say reading, the whole Bible is good. People don't do it from Genesis to revelation because it doesn't follow order. I would suggest start in the new Testament.It kind of work your way, you know, maybe like back from there, but cause they can confuse you, you know, and really hurt your mind to try to fit the thing in chronological order because it's not in chronological order. Gosh, I lost my train of thought. What was I, what was I saying before I [00:53:00] launched off into that warning about the, about not reading the Bible and like a specific order. Okay.I'm sure I've got all the time. Yeah. Thank you Lord. I know what I was saying. So, you know, it's more, you know, I now know that I get closer to God when I'm in my private time with him, then I preach spiritual independence to people all of the time, because there's a scripture that says that there should come a time in your life.And the Bible says that you will have me that no man should teach you. So this year means that you grow and gone to a point where you don't or you no longer need a pre. Churches like school. Eventually you must graduate. You shouldn't, you know, where they sell it to you in these churches. Like it's a badge of honor.If you've been a member there for X milestone years, 10, 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 years. And so they pump you up and build you up and make it seem like you're more part of the family, or you have some sort of status if you're a 30 year member or whatever. But [00:54:00] I look at you with somebody who has not grown in God.Like you could have, you know, at this point, what, what are you still hearing these preachers say? Well, to your point, the messages are not heavily complex. They're not a whole lot of deep themes in them. You know, these days, you know, they're, they sound watered down and maybe people are going for the community and for the laser lights and all that.But you had mentioned earlier about like the whole falling away and this, there is the whole thing. I love how. Like Chris cross and God has made scripture. It's not something that's so claim to understand because everyone can read the same scripture and you can get different things out of it. But I believe a person's interpretation of scripture reflects what is in them.I see when I was growing up and that scripture about there being a falling away, they always made it seem like it would just be a bunch of heathen folk who just didn't want to fuck with God anymore and stuff like that. I don't think they ever considered that the falling away would be because of the church itself, you know, [00:55:00] and because of preachers, you know, pushing people away, you know, either direct.Or by their corrupt ass lifestyles. And then I, and I never thought I would see the day where I would be the one preaching against churches and against preachers and the way I grew up in church and everything like that. I never thought that this would be my ministry yet. Here we are, because churches are doing so much damage to people these days.It's just unreal. And I want to say, you know, various mentioned informants a couple of times. I don't really care for criminal informants because they use the Judas on my ass when SWAT came and raided my apartment with the canines and the helicopters and the rifles, the semi-automatic rifles on the face shields and the cavalier vest and kicked my door in when I was a big, bad drug dealer in Houston.You know, I guess you do have to be pretty big time to command all that sort of government funding to come and get your ass. That was a big time drug dealer in Houston. You know, [00:56:00] you know, when a swamp came and got me and all of that, so.Damn it. I lost my train of thought. Like, again, Barry: you mentioned informants, you mentioned formats. Well, I want to add something about that. W there are rumors of televangelists having killed people. And how do you back up the word of an informant? Often they don't want to go on a record. I mean, some of our best tips for investigators come from insiders that have worked inside some of these organizations.And so it's important for an investigator to reach out to people that have seen things and in churches well in business business world they know that employee theft is a serious thing. And so I've worked retail in the past and you've got [00:57:00] companies like Walmart office Depot, staples companies like this, that they will have employees in these companies that they oversee procedures to reduce employee theft and other.And so they'll go into a store and check out a cash office to make sure that things are properly logged. There'll be security cameras in the money room where the money is counted. They'll make sure that the receipts that the registered. And what the money that was taken out of the register are match.There are numbers, all phone number will be in the break room and employ if they suspect an employee, a coworker of doing criminal activity they could call the 800 number and report that person. And they can even get a reward for turning someone in. That's been stealing from the company and the church world.We generally don't have those kinds of [00:58:00] people to re to call the contact that can do a proper investigation. For example us, we look at it, fraud, theft and excess, but rarely theft, because number one, we generally don't have receipts and generally it's the church not contacting us to.Internally if they're going to investigate, they would hire their conduct, their local law enforcement or an accountant or an attorney to do an investigation. So, I mean, we've looked at some theft issues, but not that much, mostly we're documenting fraud, which involves deception lying in order to get money, things like that.And extravagant lifestyles. So a televangelist somebody living w beyond their mains is a big red flag for us. And so we try to document those types of things. The pastor's living in multi-million dollar homes, et cetera. [00:59:00] But the informants really can fill in the gap. For example they've told us where some of these people have homes.We'd never, would've known that Joel Osteen at a home in California, if it wasn't an informant that told us. De'Vannon: Yeah, that's what I was going to say. I was just going to say, if anyone out there wants to snitch though, I'm not a fan of them. I'll make an exception this time, then berries, you know, he's buried Bowen on Twitter.You know, that's how I contacted him. And all of his contact information information will be in the show notes. Is there any other way an informant can reach you to the spill, some tea, if they so desire, Barry: we have a form on our website that informant can fill out. They can filled out anonymously. They don't have to provide a phone number or contact information.However, when that happens there's not really a way of following [01:00:00] up. I mean, we, we, we try to protect our informants. If, if they want to go public we can help them do so. If they want to talk to media, we can possibly help that happen. If they want to fill out a report to the IRS we know how to fill out a form 13, 909 to report a non-profit official who's doing criminal activity.There's all kinds of different ways of going forward with an informant. De'Vannon: I hear you for the protection cause informants, they need to be protected. Barry: Yes. I'm not going to be on your podcast De'Vannon: today. I'm not going to dive too deep into the protections. I wouldn't want to divulge the way that you protect them.We still have a few more questions. I just wanted to throw that out there. Since we were on the subject of informants Barry: Main way we protect them is just with holding [01:01:00] their name. So like for example, we, if we were to publish a report with the IRS, it would say in our notes, it would say it was, came from a confidential informant.We wouldn't provide their name unless they gave us permission to do so.De'Vannon: Hm. So you wrote somewhere that you feel like more money is stolen, I guess each year from the church than what has spent on world missions. Barry: Yes. That came from the international bulletin of mission research every year, the January issue, they have a publish a table of global statistics. The person that started this I think his name was David Barrett or George Barrett.I forget he was the editor of the world, Christian Almanac and. He wanted to develop a [01:02:00]spreadsheet for global Christianity. He was curious about how much money is going to the church. How is it being spent? And when he got curious about, well, there has to be some money that's embezzled. How much is that?And there is an organization. My mind is blank. It's an association of, of forensic accountants that they study fraud. And they have come up with an estimate of how much money is embezzled by non-profit organizations. I don't remember the exact amount, just say 5% for example. So what they did David Barrett, what he did was he estimated how much money went into the church and para church organizations and then 5% or whatever percentage.This was the helmet she estimated was embezzled. More money. W if this is ordered to be true, there'll be more money embezzled by [01:03:00] religious leaders than spend a world missions. And we really do believe that to be the case. There are a number of churches that spend very little on world missions, and there are a number of really large mega thefts that happen that surface every year.There are people that will still for year after year after year, before they ever get caught. And then when they're caught the, the sums just add up really big. There was a woman named Laura Ford. She worked at fellowship church, a mega church in grapevine, Texas, pastor of the churches, ed young, Jr.And she was embezzling for a number of years before she got caught. And one of the techniques that she used was the church ran a camp and sometimes parents, they would pay in advance for the kids to go to camp and then had to cancel. And so seek a refund. So she has [01:04:00] right up refunds, but then the money would go to herself.And so this was one of the way that she was embezzling and there was no other person to really check her work. She worked in the church finance department. And so she was able to do things like this for a number of years without, before she got caught. Generally a church should have checks and balances.You want to have two people signing checks if only one person signs a check that can be a problem you want to limit to how much can be charged on a church bank card. You want just say anything over a thousand dollars or $500 or whatever needs to be approved by a committee. So large expenditures have to be approved by a committee.You want things safeguards and like that in place. You want the money counted. [01:05:00] If it's a lot of money you want it counted on camera. There are things like that that can really reduce theft. You want multiple people counting and Those kinds of basic safeguards that the business world is adopted churches should adopt them to.Do you have also the training in churches? Like for example, when I worked in retail had to watch a training video and one of the videos, it said that if you see something suspicious, ask questions I don't think people are taught that, that go to work in most churches. There are texts laws that people need to be aware of that work in churches.For example, if the pastor's wife accompanies the pastor on a number of trips sometimes that's, if the church is [01:06:00] paying for her travel that should be considered a fringe benefit. And it's true. There are receipts. If you turn in a receipt for embarrassment or you reimbursement for an expense, you should have a receipt.This is what can get some organizations in trouble if they're reimbursing expenses without receipts. That is a big problem. De'Vannon: You have a figure exam around about figures, about how much it's stolen each year. Barry: Yeah. Hi, it's been a while since I've looked at it, it was in the January issue. I think it was about estimate about 60 billion this year.I forget the exact amount. So in my book I've written a rough draft. This was a couple of years ago. I published the first chapter online. And again, it's [01:07:00] a working rough draft, but a balance sheet for global Christianity. It's on a website called the Christian Sentinel, a friend of mine, Jackie Eleanor runs that website.And so I go into the meth methodology of this level, this about the spreadsheet for global Christianity. There's a breakdown by region by Europe, north America, Africa, South Africa, south America Australia, so forth Asia. A lot of the money comes from north America. A lot of this theft. It really doesDe'Vannon: well that doesn't surprise me at all. Th the Americas is such a, it's such a broken, broken country is just such a broken country. Like morally ethically. And, you know, and we just can't get on the same page, but you know, what is America comprised of a bunch of different nations from all [01:08:00] over the world?You know, we're not really like to say you're American means a lot. Like what, you know, in terms of like ethically speaking, you know, if you were from France, you know, you are French. If you were born in ELA, you know, you were Italian, you know, America has a bunch of people from all over the world who, who got over here, the indigenous people were the ones who were originally here first, you know, so this is really their land.And so, so to say, you're an American, you know, you were born here, but your nationality probably traces back somewhere else. That's not here, which is something in my opinion is very unique to America, to America. But I think because of that, you know, we just can't see eye to eye, you know, in this country. I don't feel great unity here in So let me see.I think that might be all I want to cover with you this time. I'm going to have to have you back [01:09:00] for a third time because I really, and so, so next time, like I really, really want to get into, we're going to talk heavily, not today, but I'm just going to tease a little bit. We're going to get into the Bible translations industry.You have a kick ass article@thetrinityfii.org website, because one thing that I preach a lot to people is for them to fucking God damn learn how to read the Bible for themselves. I will cuss if I have to, whatever it takes for you to understand that you don't need a preacher to comprehend what God is trying to tell you from his word or.At least to look at it historically to see how it happened back then. So we're going to talk about who translates the Bible, how much money they make and stuff like that. I found it to be most interesting and most terrifying as well. And then we're going to talk about a couple of other [01:10:00] things too.'cause this is this subject matter here. I don't, I don't like the rush in general, but especially something as valuable as this is as valuable as you are, as valuable as the information that you have and how much church means the people. I don't want to rush through this. And so the we'll go ahead and close out.I felt like I'm running a revival, like a three-night revival or something like that. And this is the second night interview here, but we won't do the benediction. We won't do the Benedetti on it. We'll just we'll do that later. There. Anything that you would like to say at all about what we've said today?Barry: If you have questions, if you're in a church environment where you suspect fraud or theft or something, and you want to learn more about what laws may apply, feel free to reach out to me and [01:11:00] ask questions. I'll be glad to try to answer them or dig deeper with you and to finding out what's going on.Thank you. Yeah. De'Vannon: Alright then. Thank you so much for coming on and we will be doing part three soon.Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at sex, drugs, and jesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.My name is De'Vannon and it's been wonderful being your host today and just remember that everything is going to be all right. 

On this week's episode of Making The Leap, Chris and Christine discuss the culture of parent empowerment they've found in a Christian school setting and contrast that culture to the veil of secrecy in public schools. Public schools are hiding information from parents and taking away their power. Elana Fishbein from No Left Turn in Education joins the episode to discuss the alarming curriculum shift she witnessed in her children's public school system. Like Chris and Christine, Elana decided to pull her children out of public school and send them to a private school. As more and more parents reject the one-size-fits-all approach to education in the public school system, alternative education settings like Christian schools and home schools continue to grow. It's up to parents to decide which alternative is the best fit for them and their children. For more information on Christian education, please visit HerzogFoundation.com. 

Success is like a two-faced coin, one side is fame and fortune, the other side is no privacy and no peace. Chris Rock, knew about success and that he couldn't retaliate to Will Smith's  slap.In my episode entitled "Will Smith had 10 seconds to choose a different reality"  we looked at the slap that was heard around the world from Will's Smith's perspective.I agreed with Denzel Washington's statement to, Will Smith, that when you are at the height of your success that is when the devil comes to destroy you.The devil was able to grab Will Smiths peace and joy from him seconds before he reached the top of the mountain and the celebration began. Chris Rock, also had 10 seconds to make a decision to retaliate, he made a different choice and instead he continued on with the task at hand. He was there to present the, Oscar, for a documentary film.  He was able to handle success. 

Join us for this exciting episode about the slap heard around the world at the Oscars.  Was it an assault?  OR was it a battery.  The two words often used interchangeably are not the same and have different legal definitions.  We have you covered so you don't make the mistake.  We also dive into what it means to "press charges" and what happens when you change your mind.  Jammed packed and full of laughs along the way.   

Chris Trapasso joined Baskin and Phelps for Mock Monday to preview the NFL Combine and the Draft. He talked about why the Combine does matter for evaluating prospects, what areas the Browns should focus on in the draft, and who he thinks would fit in to the Browns scheme. 

Joined in the studio today your host Chris Walker is joined by his CBS Sports colleague, Brent Stover. Like Chris, Brent is a former college athlete turned commentator. He ran cross country and track for head coach Cliff Rovelto at Kansas State. Brent's commentary career has taken him to Botswana for the World's Strongest Man competition, 2002 Super Bowl, sideline for the Pittsburgh Pirates, and St. Louis Cardinal. If that wasn't enough for a resume, Brent is also a Country Music singer! But he got his start commentating by recording his self on cassette in his parents basement! They discuss how men and women can compete equally in this sport, but what about in basketball? Yes there is the WNBA but don't you think a woman can play in the NBA? Chris and Brent discuss go on to discuss: the difficulties of sport commentary, what it takes to make it in the business and how they were both inspired by the great commentator Brent Musburger! Tune in now! Follow Brent! Instagram @brentstover_ Website brentstovermusic.com/ Follow Chris!Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cwalkersports/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/cwalkersports Follow Big Big EastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/bigeastshow/ -When you think of college basketball, what comes to mind first? If it's The Big East Conference, then you're right. Basketball lives in New York City — from the Bronx to Brooklyn to Madison Square Garden, you can't look anywhere without seeing a basketball fan who loves the sport more than anything. If you love the game, you'll love hearing about it from former player, coach, and now CBS Sports analyst, Chris Walker. Tune in weekly with Chris as he breaks down games, chats with friends, and talks the love of the game. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Enjoy this spoken-word piece called "Like" by Chris Townsend and Raz at Summit Church

 Welcome, brave adventurers...... to the one hundred eighty-ninth entry into our chronicle, recorded on Saturday, November 13th, and released Wednesday, November 17th over at heroesrisepodcast.com.In this week's Adventurer's Pack, Lennon shows us something other than a mapping tool. So please can someone check if Avernus has frozen over?Next we check out some D&D News as we uncover:All the latest information on Strixhaven: A Curriculum of ChaosAnd why WizKids really need to invest in a dictionaryAfter that we take a Short Rest and head into the Archives of Candlekeep to hear tales of worlds within worlds; before finally heading over to the Scrying Pool to see what you have to say.LinksCrow and CrownStrixhaven: A Curriculum of Chaos Strixhaven Character Options PreviewWotC College TweetsLoreholdWitherbloomSilverquillQuandrixPrismariWizkids Give Up on MinisA Short Rest: Archives of Candlekeep: Mystara/BlackmoorArchives of Candlekeep: Mystara/BlackmoorCommunity QuestionsDoes any of the new information about Strixhaven make you more interested in attending university? Do the classes, sports, or extracurriculars interest you?And what the heck is wrong with Geremy? Like Chris and the Scroll of Tarrasque Summoning, is this a good game mechanic, or did someone remove the batteries from Wizard's Carbon Monoxide detector?Do you remember Mystara from way back when? Did you have any adventures there?Heroes Rise are always on the lookout for new team members that have a passion for Dungeons and Dragons. Please know that all of our positions are volunteer, but we do offer a well known outlet for your work. If you have a particular skill that you believe could enhance our content, then send your contact information and experience to sendingstone@heroesrisepodcast.comYou can also follow us on the social media sites! We're on Facebook! Head over to facebook.com/heroesrisednd and say "hi", or check us out on Twitter via @heroesrisednd for details of our show times and other fun stuff. You can also join us on Discord! http://discord.heroesrisepodcast.comLiked this episode? Totally hated it? Leave a comment below, or contact us using our handy web form.A special thanks to Vindsvept for making the awesome music you hear throughout the show, be sure to check him out at vindsvept.bandcamp.com; and a special thanks to the designer of our banners and avatars, Lo of Lo's Lair -- you can find him on Twitter Support the show (http://patreon.com/heroesrisednd)

Alrighty, friends, let's dive into our topic today which is Take A Hike. I'm kind of a goofball and I love puns. So I'm not telling you to leave or to get outta here. Like Chris from Parks and Rec and I'm inviting you to spend some time outside.Support the show (https://paypal.me/vibrantlifepodcast)

The Locked on Nets guys are back on the podcast talking about the first game of the NBA Finals between the Milwaukee Bucks and Phoenix Suns. They discuss what this game means for legacies or guys like Chris Paul and Giannis Antetokounmpo specifically and how that compares to current Nets like Kevin Durant and James Harden. They discuss the game as well, but through the lens of what these rings mean when it is all said done. Of course, they dive into the game too and what Chris Paul did to carve up Milwaukee on the defense end. Get ready for a packed podcast all about the championship with the Brooklyn Nets woven in their as well.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode explores the inspirational story of Chris DT Gordon, who was diagnosed with Necrotizing Fasciitis in 2015. He discusses his experience in the hospital and the process it took to where he is now. His focus on the little things and having a positive mindset  will provide  context into how we can appreciate the little things especially during the pandemic.