Podcasts about bob no

A pesar de que Bob nos parece una de esas personas que "se lo opinan todo", resulta que hay un montón de asuntos sobre los que el colaborador de Hoy por Hoy no tiene opinión. No la tiene ni sobre el descuartizamiento de Tailandia, ni sobre las polémicas arbitrales, ni sobre la eutanasia, ni sobre la inteligencia artificial, ni sobre las películas familiares de Santiago Segura. ¡Ni siquiera sobre Pedro Sánchez! Aunque traza una comparación: si quieres saber en qué se parece Pedro Sánchez a un bebé o a un accidente de coche, escucha el podcast. 

Play No Games is a society and cultural podcast that delivers genuine thoughts, conversations, humor, relationship enlightenment and authentic introspection. They say "if you know better, you do better", yet we see that there needs to be motivation! Join Cas, Arthur, RJ, Andrew, and Cartier Bob as they give you their unfiltered, and unapologetic, ways to digest life so you can be ready to PLAY NO GAMES.

Bob Pop pone el broche final a esta temporada pidiendo ayuda a los oyentes para la elaboración de las listas de la próxima temporada, a ser posible algo más optimistas que las que él propone. Un grupo de listas que desearía no tener que hacer: desde la lista de las creaciones culturales censuradas por las ultraderechas a la lista de destinos ideales para el exilio. 

Bob - NO UNKNOWNS ABOUT THE VACCINESSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We're finally back with another brand spanking new episode of the one, the only...HYLT Radio! It has been some time, but Liam finally convinced Brittany to sit down and add to the already exhaustive catalogue of episodes we've released over the past 7 years. Bob Chapek has stepped down as CEO of the Walt Disney Company and Bob Iger has resumed his role as supreme overlord of all things Star Wars, Disney, Pixar and Marvel. What does this mean for the next two years until a new replacement is found? Why are ticket prices so high, and even crazier, why do we keep paying them? Spoiler alert: It's because it's Disney. We also chat real quick about our recent excursion in seeing Encanto live at the Hollywood Bowl. So strap yourselves in for an adventure with the hosts of HYLT Radio, Brittany and Liam DiCosimo (guest appearance from Wynnie).

Movies discussed: Barbarian, V/H/S 99, Guillermo del Toro's Cabinet of Curiosities, Stalked (short) This week we enjoyed Guillermo Del Toro's cabinet of curiosities, didn't quite get the hype on Barbarian, and REALLY tried to say something nice about V/H/S/99, you guys. We did. Next episodes assignments: Dark Night of the Scarecrow Satan's Slaves: Communion Memories of Murder Unlucky Charms (short) Watch along with us if you like and we'll see you next episode. The post Episode 444 – Sunny Side Up Bob No Good appeared first on Horror Show Hot Dog.

Sometimes "reality" TV takes it one step too far.  Sometimes two steps.  Sometimes a flying leap. WARNING:  IMPLIED VIOLENCE AND TORTURE Written and Produced by Julie Hoverson Cast List Announcer  - Frankenvox Alison - Beverly Poole Bart - Michael Faigenblum Carl - Mike Campbell Debbie - E. Vickery Ms. Sheldon - Sharon Delong Tanya - Tanja Milojevic Mom - Shayla Conrad-Simms Dad - Reynaud LeBoeuf Son - Eli Nilsson Fred - Joel Harvey Bob - Glen Hallstrom Helen - Helen Edwards June - Shelbi McIntyre Kathy - Kim Poole Additional Voices - Russell Gold; Julie Hoverson Music by Brian Bochicchio (Seraphic Panoply) Show theme:  Kevin MacLeod (Incompetech.com) Editing and Sound:   Julie Hoverson Cover Design:  Brett Coulstock   "What kind of a place is it? Why it's right here, right now, can't you tell?" ************************************************************************ IDIOT BOX Cast: [Opening credits - Olivia] TV Announcer Alison, chipper Bart, sullen Carl, upbeat, hearty Debbie, nervous, angry underneath Ms. Sheldon, executive producer Tanya, in the sound booth Family - mom, dad, teenage son Bar - Fred, Bob, Helen Dorm - June, Kathy OLIVIA     Did you have any trouble finding it?  What do you mean, what kind of a place is it?  Why, it's right here, right now, can't you tell?  MUSIC SOUND     THEME MUSIC ANNOUNCER    last week, in the record-breaking debut of The Box, we were introduced to our four contestants: ALISON    [chipper] I'm Alison, from Santa Monica.  Hi, mom! CARL    [hearty] Carl, from Atlanta - home of the Cartoon Channel!!  DEBBIE    [nervous] Debbie, from Salem.  Uh, Oregon.  [quickly] Salem Oregon. BART    [sullen] Bart, Minneapolis [disgusted sigh]. ANNOUNCER    The rules are on the screen now for all you viewers out there, to cover the formalities.  They are also available on our website at [spelled out superfast] w-w-w-dot-s-k-i-n-n-e-r-i-d-i-o-t-b-o-x-dot-com.  AMB    FAMILY LIVING ROOM SOUND    CHIPS EATEN FROM BAG ANNOUNCER    [TV] And after this brief message, we'll show you the results of last week's voting. SOUND    CLICK OF REMOTE SOUND    POPCORN POPPING IN MICROWAVE MOM    [off] You better not have turned that off, hun! SOUND    MICROWAVE DINGS DAD    Just muted.  Sick of all these ads for freaking erectile dysfunction.  If anything's going to give a guy man-trouble, it's having to watch all those damn ads. SOUND    POURING POPCORN INTO BOWL SON    Ew, dad.  T-M-I. MOM    [coming in, munching popcorn] The one I hate is that smiling guy.  His wife just looks so scared all the time.  Almost as creepy as the King. SON    Am I adopted?  Please say yes. DAD    Ooops, back on! ANNOUNCER    [TV]  Did everyone vote? MOM    I certainly did! SON    Mom?  [disgusted noise] Why? ANNOUNCER    [TV] The voting is closed, the tabulations have been made, and the scores are coming up on the screen now. MOM    [over the announcer] Why not?  I want that nice young girl - the blonde - to win.  She's very wholesome. ANNOUNCER    [TV] And it looks like today Alison has been selected!  MOM    [satisfied] There! ANNOUNCER    We have Alison in the studio now - let's see how she takes it. SOUND     LIGHT MUSIC, ON THE TV SEGUES INTO REALITY ANNOUNCER    Hello Alison!  Say hi to everyone!  ALISON    Hi!  Hi mom!  Dad! ANNOUNCER    How's the first week been treating you? ALISON    This place is great! ANNOUNCER    Throughout the show, we'll be showing some of the fun you four have been having.  Now, why don't you tell me what you think of your new friends? ALISON    Oh, wow - everyone's really great.  ANNOUNCER    Don't you find Bart a bit... isolated? ALISON    He's just self-contained.  I'm sure he's a good guy, he just doesn't open up real easily. ANNOUNCER    And Debbie? ALISON    She's shy - a lot like my sister.  Hi Vickie!! ANNOUNCER    [chuckles] That's great. ALISON    And Carl - well, he's a blast.  He's always thinking up great stuff to do. ANNOUNCER    Yesterday you had sole access to the Dairy Dan Amusement park. ALISON    Oh, man - that was awesome!  They closed the gates and we got to ride all the rides all day long - no lines, no crowds!  Woo! ANNOUNCER    You've been chosen. ALISON    Woo!  [stumbles] I - What?  What? SOUND    CONTROL BOOTH ANNOUNCER    [TV]  Please step into the box. ALISON    [TV - gasp, then steels herself]  Right.  [somewhat bitter] Thanks America. SHELDON That's the shot - tight in on 2, now 3 - yes! Keep her face centered until she shuts the door. TANYA    Got it. SHELDON Okay, keep the volume low on that. It's early yet - don't want to wear out the viewers... SOUND    [TV] ELECTRIC SHOCK NOISE, SOMEWHAT BRIEF ALISON    [TV - short scream] ANNOUNCER    [TV] We'll be right back after the break to find out what today's challenge will be. AMB    DORM ROOM JUNE    Omigod!  Omigod!  Did you see that? KATHY    [distracted] Hmm?  No but I sure heard it - did they just do what I think they did? JUNE    They just shocked the crap out of the blonde chick! KATHY    Was there actually crap? JUNE    [duh] She was in the box.  Shh.  It's coming back on. SOUND    TV TURNS UP ANNOUNCER    [TV] We'll be right back with more of The Box after these messages. SOUND    SOUND DOWN AGAIN JUNE    I hate when they do that. KATHY    Shock someone? JUNE    No, have the logo come up and make you think the show is back on. KATHY    Yeah, that's much worse. JUNE    You know what I mean!  It was totally mean that they shocked her - she's the one who got the most votes! KATHY    Isn't that what everyone was voting for? JUNE    No!  At least, I don't think so - I mean, I thought it was voting for who would win something cool.  I ...voted for her. KATHY    You actually voted? JUNE    On the website, yeah. KATHY    Of course there's a website.  Maybe you should read the fine print. JUNE    Oh, oh!  It's back on!  Jeez, look at her poor hair! SOUND    TV UP ANNOUNCER    [TV] Back to the interview room, to hear from Alison. ANNOUNCER    [real] Before we go on, I need to point out, this is the only time you can choose to leave the show.  Are you prepared to stay? ALISON    [gulps, then quiet]  Yes.  [clears her throat, louder]  Yes.  [very shaky] That wasn't so bad. ANNOUNCER    Excellent.  Now I believe you recently graduated from college, Alison.  What did you get your degree in? AMB    BAR ALISON    [TV]  I'm a liberal arts major, with a minor in art history. FRED    So she's unemployed, eh? ANNOUNCER    [TV]  And you are engaged to be married? BOB    Too bad.  All the cute ones are taken.  Even with that weird hairdo. SOUND    TV SWITCHED TO SPORTS FRED    Hey, we were watching that! HELEN    Why?  It's awful, letting them mess with people on TV like that! FRED    [scornful] It's not real.  BOB    Course it is - it even has a website! HELEN    Puh-leez.  Lots of things have websites that aren't real. BOB    Name one. HELEN    Pamela Anderson's boobs. FRED    She got you there, pal. BOB    C'mon - just switch it back long enough to see what today's challenge is?  Please? HELEN    Ya big softie, you. SOUND    TV CHANGES BACK ANNOUNCER    [TV] Carl, you got the second most votes this week - Do you have anything to say to the viewers at home?  Obviously you're doing something right, to get so many votes. CARL    [TV]  I think it's just my sunny personality, Bob.  People like winners, and I am a winner. AMB    LIVING ROOM SON    Weiner. MOM    Language! SON    [dismissive noise] Doesn't that dipstick know that most votes gets zapped? DAD    Maybe he doesn't - they might not tell THEM everything, either.  Makes sense.  Why else would they be so excited? SON    But that sucks!  That sucks big time!  Here they are, trying to be all cool and get people to vote for them, and they're like masterminding their own torture or something. DAD    It's just a game,  No one really gets hurt. MOM    Well, I was kind of upset that Alicia-- SON    Alison. MOM    Yes, that she got shocked.  I didn't know that voting for her would do that.  I kind of feel bad now. SON    Well, don't vote for her next time. MOM    I certainly won't! ANNOUNCER    [on TV] Well, we've spoken to two of our four contestants, and the voting is open for the halftime winner.  Go on line now or text to-- SOUND    TV MUTES, AMB/DORM SOUND    COMPUTER KEYS KATHY    What are you doing? JUNE    Voting. KATHY    Vicious much? JUNE    No! I - I just don't want her to have to get shocked again.  Damn!  It only lets me choose one of those two - not the other guy. KATHY    So you want to see him get shocked? JUNE    Well, no, but I like him the least. KATHY    Just cause you don't think he's cute. SOUND    ONE LAST KEY JUNE    Um, there. KATHY    So who'd you vote for? JUNE    The guy - the nice one - of course.  I like him, too, but I don't want her to get shocked again. SOUND    TV UP AGAIN ANNOUNCER    [TV] Regular text messaging fees apply.  And now‑‑ SOUND    OMINOUS MUSIC ROLLS IN ANNOUNCER    [TV, ominous] The moment in the spotlight.  Will it be Alison or Carl?  The voting closes in three minutes, so hurry up and make your vote count - if the lines are overloaded, make sure and try back - but be quick.   [normal] While we wait, let's watch some clips from the preliminary interviews with the other two contestants. MUSIC ANNOUNCER    [TV] And what are you studying? DEBBIE    [TV] I'm - um - a poli sci major. FRED    So she's gonna end up unemployed too. BOB    Whatever happened to good old trade schools? FRED    They're still around - just the trades aren't.  You seen any cobblers in the U.S. of A recently?  Nope.  It's all farmed out to Pakistan and Koala Lumper. HELEN    Lumpur. FRED    Sez you. HELEN    I can turn it off, you know. BOB    Yeah - see now Helen here's got a job that can't be farmed out - long as there's guys like us, there's always gonna be bars, eh? FRED    Until they invent a mixology robot. BOB    Hey, the lights are flashing on the screen, must be something important. SOUND    TV TURNED UP. SOUND    OMINOUS MUSIC INTENSIFIES ANNOUNCER    [TV; evil "suspense" pacing]  And the one who got the most halftime votes.  Will it be Alison, our stoic liberal arts major? JUNE    Yes, yes - come on come on!!! ANNOUNCER    [TV] Or Carl, who tutors children with learning disabilities. MOM    Oh, that's awful! SON    Awful? That he works with retarded kids? MOM    [almost a whisper] That I voted for him. ANNOUNCER    [TV] And the one who got the most votes in the 8-minute half-time poll was-- SOUND    HEAVY DRUMBEAT ANNOUNCER    [TV] Was-- SOUND    HEAVY DRUMBEAT KATHY    Look at how much she's sweating! JUNE    You'd sweat too if you just got shocked! ANNOUNCER    [TV] is -Carl! JUNE    Whew! KATHY    Shh.  Let's see what happens. ANNOUNCER    [TV] This means that at the end of tonight's show, Carl will be up against the second half winner in a showdown to see who gets a million dollars sent to the charity of their choice. HELEN    Waitaminute - she gets shocked and he gets a chance to win big bucks?  That's so not fair! FRED    That's the way it is.  Women always getting the short stick. HELEN    Especially when they're dating you, eh? BOB    [laughs, tried to stop] FRED    Yeah, yeah - you can joke now, but I'll give you 70-30 odds that the other winner is that other guy. BOB    The grouch? FRED    Yup.  Is it a bet? BOB    Fifty bucks? FRED    Whoah, whoah!  Let's not get carried away here, now. MUSIC - OPENING THEME, PLAYS FOR A MOMENT ANNOUNCER    Entering week five of The Box, you can see the ratings posted for our four contenders.  [hushed] Last week, it looked as though Debbie had finally broken-- DEBBIE    [TV] I hate it!  I hate you all! You can all just go and-- SOUND    LONG SERIES OF BLEEPED WORDS SOUND    ZAPPING AND SCREAMING UNDER NEXT LINE ANNOUNCER    But after her trip to the box, she refused to cry off. DEBBIE    [TV] [breathing heavily and gulping] No [gasp] way! [gasp]  You don't [gasp] get rid of me [long shaky breath] that easily. [sob] ANNOUNCER    And now, a new week - and what was this week's challenge? STUDIO AUDIENCE Fasting! ANNOUNCER    Yes, fasting.  Whoever could go the longest without eating even a single bite of food got a free pass this week‑‑ ANNOUNCER    [TV] --and we'll find out who managed that in just a moment - after a few words from our sponsors. SOUND    CLICK, SOUND OFF JUNE    [urging] C'mon Debbie! KATHY    Debbie?  Hah.  She's got no body fat to start with.  Bart has a much better chance of surviving-- JUNE    Don't say that!  You just like him cause you know I don't! KATHY    I root for the underdog.  It's a principal. And no one likes that poor bastard. JUNE    If no one likes him, how come Debbie's the one always getting shocked, huh?  [almost a sob] Huh? ANNOUNCER    [TV]  Let's bring our four contestants out on stage to hear who's going to be free and clear for another week.  Alison-- SOUND    MUSIC UP, DOOR OPENS, SHAKY FOOTSTEPS ANNOUNCER    [real] Alison, how are you feeling? ALISON    [trying to be perky] Not too bad.  I made it almost three whole days on nothing but water.  ANNOUNCER    But then you lost it? ALISON    [heavy sigh] Yeah, I had to give in and get something.  [resigned] I figured fine - just put me in the box.  At least that eventually ends.  ANNOUNCER    Thank you, Alison.  Now go over to the isolation booth while we talk with each of your friends. ALISON    [venomous] Friends?  Hah! ANNOUNCER    [TV, confidential] She needs to learn to be careful about trading today's pain for tomorrow's - what she doesn't know is we've [ramping up] turned the voltage up another notch! AUDIENCE    [TV, CHEERS] HELEN    This just keeps getting worse.  It has to be against the law. BOB    Oh, come on.  They signed waivers, didn't they?  Plus, it's all fake - like wrestling.  Seriously.  Even if they did do this stuff, they have to have doctors and all on staff - make sure no one really gets hurt. SOUND    UNWRAPPING AND OPENING A FORTUNE COOKIE FRED    Hey, listen to this - "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." BOB    Figures the Chinese would think of that first. FRED    Nah.  The Chinese didn't make that up. HELEN    Then who did say it? FRED    [immediate] Thomas Jefferson. BOB    I don't think so. FRED    Yeah?  And who do you think it was? BOB    Some Greek philosopher or other.  [idea] Julius Caesar! HELEN    You guys make your bet, I'll call Jonesy on the next commercial and he can google it. SOUND    TV TURNS UP ANNOUNCER    [TV]  So Bart, you made it the longest without eating - you have any special tips for the viewers out there on how you did it? BART    [real] Huh? ANNOUNCER    Any tips?  We'll give you a minute - these moments of uncertainty are just further proof that our show is live and unedited.  While Bart ponders this, I'll recap - Alison gave into her craven need for food first, followed by Carl and Debbie - in a virtual photo finish, where Debbie held out for one millisecond longer than Carl.  Good going Debbie! BART    I hate you. ANNOUNCER    Hmm?  What's that? BART    I hate you and all you stand for.  ANNOUNCER    Do I hear an opt-out coming?  For those of you just tuning in, during this episode and this episode alone, any of our four contestants can opt out at any time - not just immediately following a trip into the Box.  So Bart, are you-- SOUND    A BEEP TRIES TO CUT HIM OFF ON THE FIRST WORD BART    Fuck you!  You can't get rid of me that easily.  BART    [TV] I don't care how many times you drug me and try to get me to bow down to the corporate machine!  You and all you people at home - you are sadistic bastards, but I'm here for the long haul - And when I finish, whether I win or not, I will be traveling around the country demanding the pound of flesh each and every one of you bastards owe me!!! KATHY    For god's sake, turn it off. JUNE    No, he's making a valid point.  We shouldn't be party to this. KATHY    The very act of watching it validates it. JUNE    No.  I'm only doing this to bear witness. KATHY    The advertisers don't care.  They just want to you to watch. JUNE    Well, I won't vote any more. KATHY    Then you can't complain when your favorite gets zapped. JUNE    [upset] Oh hell! ANNOUNCER    [TV]  Well, that was very enlightening.  Before you out there start emailing and phoning - please refer to clause 42 slash 8 slash F, subsection I-I-I, paragraph y, where it sets out the game's rules covering mental illness or defect.  Thank you, and good night! SOUND    TV TURNED OFF HELEN    Anyone checked out the big pools? FRED    What do you mean? HELEN    There's huge bets all over the place - everyone guessing who's gonna last the longest. BOB    Well, no one's washed out yet. FRED    They're a tough bunch of kids, but I bet I could make it on that show.  Age does bring wisdom. BOB    To who? FRED    You're too young to remember this, but I was a P-O-W in nam [rhymes with "ham"].  I been through it all.  Torture, deprivation, brain washing. HELEN    They sure got yours squeaky clean. SOUND    DRINKS WHOLE BEER DOWN. BOB    Ahhh. MUSIC    ANNOUNCER    This week, week 9 of The Box, we might just lose a second contestant.  ANNOUNCER     [TV] Alison, you've spent three days in this jacuzzi - brought to us courtesy of Big Joe's cut-rate pools and spas.  Now, people might think this was fun, but of course, you can't fall asleep or you might drown!  ALISON    [TV, parched, delirious]  You suck, Bob. FRED    Friend of yours? BOB    You wish. ALISON     [TV]  Get me out. ANNOUNCER    [TV] You do know that whomever leaves their jacuzzi first goes directly into the box? ALISON     [TV] No!  I want out!  OUT!  I can't - you can't make me stay here! JUNE    They can't, can they? KATHY     How much you wanna bet she signed something that says they can? JUNE    That's illegal! KATHY    Being stupid and greedy?  Nah.  They'd run out of prisons.  Unless you subscribe to the idea that our whole world is a prison. JUNE    [very upset] Don't talk like that - look at that poor girl!  They're just dragging her across the stage! KATHY    Wow.  I wouldn't'a thought it would take three guys to handle her, after all the crap she's been through. ALISON    [TV - screaming weakly and struggling] ANNOUNCER    [TV] It is understood, under the rules, that the clemency episode has run out and, once again, the only time you can opt out is right after a session in the box-- SON    If she's all wet, wouldn't that make the shock worse? DAD    At least her hair doesn't end up all weird since they shaved her head after that challenge last week-- SON    Three weeks ago. DAD    Really?  Anyway, they probably compensate somehow. MOM    Are you sure? DAD    [unsure] Well... They can't really hurt her - that would be... ANNOUNCER    [TV]     Oh, and - I've just got a word from the producer!  We've got a three minute vote - so grab your phones!  ANNOUNCER    [real] Now this will cost one dollar per vote, so make yours count!  Dial the studio number and hit 1 if you want us to let Allison forfeit and leave now, push 2 if you think we should hold her to the rules.  And voting opens [beat, then TV] Now! SHELDON Start the positive counter. TANYA    On it.  Running. NARRATOR     [TV] The positive votes will tally right here on the corner of the screen, and if, after the vote closes, there are more positive than negative votes, Alison will  immediately leave the studio - damper but wiser... BOB    Man, I wish I was in Vegas. FRED    Nah - you know what's going to happen.  The odd's'll be crap. HELEN    Course.  They'll let her go. FRED    You gotta lotta faith in people, babe.  Nah.  I'll give you 10 to 1 she's gonna ride the lightning. BOB     [incredulous] "Ride the lightning?" FRED    You know - old sparky. The electric chair?  Man where have you been? BOB    Considering no one's been executed in an electric chair in this state for - um - help me out Helen-- HELEN    50 years. BOB    50 years. FRED    Really? HELEN    How the hell'm I supposed to know? BOB    Well, whatever - a long time.  HELEN    Actually, I think this state always hanged people. FRED    Hung. BOB    The countdown! 5 - 4 - JUNE    3-2- MOM    [almost breathless] One. ANNOUNCER    [TV]  All votes are in, and as you can see, we had a regular landslide of support for our dear friend Allison here.  we have 4 million six hundred seventy two thousand, three hundred and forty-two votes for clemency.  Good for you everyone!  We'll show the other side, right after this-- SOUND    TV OFF DAD    No way! MOM    You can't    ! SON    I won't watch any more of this.  This is brutal. MOM    [angry] Don't you dare!  How can we not ... find out? SON    No. MOM    Just until they announce it - we don't have to watch ...if she... SON    Gets it? SOUND    REMOTE THROWN ONTO TABLE SON    You do what you want.  I'll be in the garage. SOUND    [after a moment] TV CLICKS ON COMMERCIAL    [something] KATHY    I bet the commercials for this cost top dollar.  Like superbowl ads. JUNE    How can you just be so snarky - that girl could die! KATHY    Nah.  They can't do that.  It would be illegal. JUNE    Not normally, but remember when that guy had a stroke on "Danger Island" last year?  The family sued, but the waiver made it perfectly legit.  KATHY    And that wasn't even that exciting. ANNOUNCER    [on TV]  For those just tuning in, we have perky little Allison in the Box, awaiting your verdict.  [continues under] Does she take the next shock, or have you tipped toward clemency for this poor girl? SHELDON Give them the split picture. TANYA    Before and after? SHELDON Uh-huh. [grim] Show them what they did. ANNOUNCER    [on TV] The negative votes have been tallied.  SOUND    DRUM ROLL, OMINOUS MUSIC ANNOUNCER    [ON TV] And we had 4 million six hundred seventy two thousand, three hundred and forty-two votes to let her go.  BOB    I'm still saying they'll let her off.  FRED    Nope.  You already lost that twenty, pal. HELEN    Shh! ANNOUNCER    [TV] The negative count is seven million three hundred-- SOUND    TV OFF KATHY    Did you vote? JUNE    Yes.  [beat]  Twenty times. KATHY    [shrug] You can't beat the bastards. JUNE    But if everyone just voted a few more times... KATHY    Three million more times. JUNE    How can people be so horrible? SOUND    [NEXT DOOR TV] SCREAMING PEOPLE    [laughing] SOUND    POUNDING ON WALL JUNE    [yelling at them] How can you be so horrible?? KATHY    They're drunk.  Didn't you see the sign? JUNE    [half a sob] Sign? KATHY    The one that said "come to gary's room, get drunk and watch The Box"? JUNE    [down] No. KATHY    Look, turn it on.  You'll see she's not dead or anything, then you'll feel better. JUNE    But what if she's not?  I mean, what if she is?  I mean-- KATHY    [sigh] Then you'll know. SOUND    [beat, then] TV TURNS ON SOUND    [on TV] AMBULANCE SIRENS JUNE    [sob] MOM    [sob] Her poor parents! DAD    Don't worry so much - she's not dead. MOM    She was for 43 seconds. DAD    That doesn't even count these days - happens all the time on House. MOM    [very upset] But this is real! SOUND    [on tv] MUSIC UP ANNOUNCER    [tv]  And we'll be checking in with Allison as soon as she regains consciousness to confirm her wish to opt out.  For now, the game comes down to Bart and Carl.  ANNOUNCER    Don't forget - no matter what happens, the game's big final episode is in two weeks.  SOUND    CAMERA OFF SHELDON Nicely done. ANNOUNCER    It's really wearing me thin. SHELDON Almost over. And after today's vote, there's no way the station can afford to cancel us. ANNOUNCER    [sigh, then grudging] Two more shows.  SHELDON [with meaning] And then we announce the results. MUSIC - OPENING THEME, PLAYS FOR A MOMENT AMB     NOISY BAR BOB    [ordering] Another one. FRED    Packed tonight. SOUND    DRINK SET DOWN HELEN    It's the finale. FRED    [tired] Oh, yeah.  That. BOB    Bottom's up! HELEN    Slow down, or I'm gonna have to pour you into a cab. SOUND    CAR KEYS SLAPPED ONTO THE BAR, SCOOPED UP SOUND    GLASS SET DOWN HARD BOB    Ahhh. CROWD    ROAR OF EXCITEMENT HELEN    Hold on!  I'll get it. SOUND    TV SOUND UP MUSIC    FANFARE ANNOUNCER    It's the night we've all been waiting for.  The night the final results are announced.  And we will have an ultimate winner.  Let's recap what the winner will walk away with.  SOUND    VOLUME DOWN SOUND    DOOR OPENS KATHY    Oh, you're not watching that, are you?  [sneer] I thought you decided it wasn't worth it! JUNE    [shell shocked] I can't not watch!  I have to know! KATHY    Look, let's go to the library or something. JUNE    No!  I would die of suspense! KATHY    It's not-- SOUND    TV VOLUME COMES UP KATHY    [sigh] I'm not staying. SOUND    DOOR CLOSES ANNOUNCER    And the contest comes down to our two finalists, Bart and Carl.  They have endured amazing hardship to make it this far.  Do you have anything you want to say to the people at home, Bart? BART    You still suck and you always will.  Every single one of you!  Every person who just sits by and supports this shit! ANNOUNCER    [still jovial]  And yet, you have continued to play our sick little games - as you call them - despite being offered chance after chance to leave. BART    Hah!  I don't plan to fucking let you win, you scumbags! ANNOUNCER    Well said.  And you, Carl, do you have anything for the audience? CARL    [mumbles] ANNOUNCER    Speak up? CARL    [vague, reciting] We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams.  Sitting by lone sea-- lone sea....  the sea.  The sea.  See see oh playmate, come out and play with me.... [fades out] ANNOUNCER    There you have it, folks.  And now we go to our man in the street interviewer, Tanya.  Take it away! TANYA    Thank you.  I'm in a major metropolitan center here, asking people on the street what they think of the Box. ANNOUNCER    If they're outside right now, instead of glued to their sets, they must not think much of it. BOTH    [fake laugh] SOUND    TV OFF SOUND    EATING MOM    What?  Don't you dare! DAD    Hey, we were watching that! SON    Are you enjoying this? MOM    Enjoying? DAD    What do you mean? SON    All this shit they've put those people through!  You can barely tell them apart now, after they've been starved and had their heads shaved.  They look like concentration camp victims! MOM    But - but this is the last show! DAD    What does it matter if we watch or don't watch? SOUND    THROWING DOWN A REMOTE SON    Do what you want.  I'll just hope for a six-car pileup.  Maybe you'll trade up. SOUND    DOOR OPENS AND SHUT SOUND    REMOTE TAKEN, TV ON ANNOUNCER    And for tonight, the big surprise is-- SOUND    DRUM ROLL, OMINOUS MUSIC ANNOUNCER    Two boxes! SOUND    CANNED CHEERING ANNOUNCER    One for each of you.  While we get them all set, here's a word from our sponsor! AMB    BAR CROWD    Buzzing "two boxes?" BOB    [slurry] Whaddaya think they've got up their shleeves? FRED    They're gonna kill one of those boys. HELEN    [confidential] I heard that girl Allison is in a private clinic, barely alive. FRED    Where'd you--? HELEN    Internet.  BOB    [sarcastic]  Yeah.  Then it's probably true. SOMEONE    Turn it up! HELEN    Got it! SOUND    TV UP ANNOUNCER    And now.  The moment of truth!  All the votes have been tallied.  As you can see, we have Bart over here in the red box-- SOUND    CANNED APPLAUSE ANNOUNCER    [tv] --and Carl over there in the blue. SHELDON close up on Bart, camera 2. Yeah, baby, clench that jaw.  Now cut to that trickle of sweat on Carl's face.  Nice. TANYA    Back to the announcer? SHELDON One more second, and - yes! ANNOUNCER    [tv] And now, with the votes tallied, we will find out who you out there have selected as the big winner, and who has to take the big penalty.  ANNOUNCER    [real] But first, we caught each of our contestants here on secret camera last night.  Let's see what they were doing on the penultimate night. SOUND    QUICK JAB OF STATIC VOICE    [tv] ...need to get out now.  You don't understand what they have planned for tomorrow.  It's so much worse! AMB    BAR BOB    Who the hell izzat? BART    [TV] [scoff] Worse?  Worse how? HELEN    Don't know.  FRED    Look at that announcer fellow - he's surprised too.  HELEN    [half a chuckle]  Serves him right. ANNOUNCER    [tv] Sorry - we should have screened that clip before playing it.  Let's go over to Carl's shot. CARL    [tv] Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall--[cuts out suddenly] ANNOUNCER    [tv] And that's all the time we have for that.  And now the moment of truth.  Carl or Bart?  You held their fate in your hands. SOUND    COMMERCIAL COMES ON UNDER MOM    [coming in]  Where's Kyle?  Have you seen Kyle? DAD    [mesmerized]  He'll be back.  Just ... went out to a friend's house.  Probably. MOM    You should turn that off and find him! DAD    We can look in ten minutes just as easily as we can look now! MOM    This is our son! DAD    It's almost over! SOUND    OMINOUS MUSIC ON TV ANNOUNCER    [tv] And now.  The final countdown. MOM    Five minutes. SOUND    SHE SITS ANNOUNCER     [tv]  This has been quite a journey for everyone - and we would like to thank you all for your support and participation. BOB    Support?  I'd shoot that stupid bastard if I had a chance.  And a gun. HELEN    You're not the only one, but a lot of people paid a lot of money into that damn show. ANNOUNCER    [tv] --making us the highest rated network series ever-- FRED    yeah, and even WE count for ratings, since we happen to be watching it. BOB    [steaming into an alcoholic rage] Then let's not watch it! SOUND    SLAMS GLASS ON BAR, LIQUID SLOSHES FRED    Calm down, pal. BOB    No! Is this what our world has come to?  This crap?? SOUND    THROWS BEER GLASS AT TV, TV DIES, BUT OTHER SET PLAYS ON IN THE BACKGROUND CROWD    [Shocked silence] FRED    Great, one down, only seven hundred million TV sets to go. HELEN    I'll put it on your tab. CROWD     [chatter begins again] ANNOUNCER    [tv] --will definitely be returning for a second season, starting next fall-- SOUND    DOOR OPENS ANNOUNCER    [tv] --and we're looking at celebrity contestants.  TANYA    [tv]  That will be a whole new ballgame. KATHY    Sorry, didn't know it was still on. JUNE    [distraught] Stay.  Please. KATHY    Ugh.  Why? JUNE    Because I don't think I'll make it otherwise. KATHY    Make what? ANNOUNCER    [tv] And now for the final outcome.  MOM    Yes? DAD    About time. ANNOUNCER    [tv]  the final results. FRED    Don't call the police.  I'll get him home. HELEN    Yeah.  This time. ANNOUNCER    [tv] What we've all been working toward. JUNE    [crying] Can't they just say it? TV, MUSIC SWELLS, THEN CUTS OUT SUDDENLY JUNE    What? HELEN    Shit, must have blown the circuit. DAD    The electricity's still on! KATHY    Is there something wrong with your TV? MOM    No!  It's practically new! FRED    Come on.  Quitting time, pal. SOUND    TEST PATTERN NOISE, THEN MUSIC SUDDENLY CUTS BACK IN ANNOUNCER    Thank you all for participating in our experiment.  MOM    [gasp] ANNOUNCER    As you can see, all of our actors are in perfect health. JUNE    [sob]  How could they--? KATHY    Bastards. ANNOUNCER    We would love to hear your reactions to this show.  Please feel free to leave us a message at www-dot- SOUND    TV SWITCHES OFF HELEN     [last call voice] Allright.  That's it. CLOSER   [NOTE:  George Santayana, author of the quote.]

The author of the book, (No) Shortcuts: The Proven Path To Purpose, Excellence, and Calling, Bob Hasson, discussed the importance of finding one's calling, centered in Christ, and how that is (or is not) related to occupation.  You can find out more at bobhasson.com.

The author of the book, (No) Shortcuts: The Proven Path To Purpose, Excellence, and Calling, Bob Hasson, discussed the importance of finding one's calling, centered in Christ, and how that is (or is not) related to occupation.  You can find out more at bobhasson.com.

Matt's an Uber driver now. His son is a loan shark in training. Bob's body ends the podcast fairly abruptly. Coffee of the week: Iron Bean 'My Little Friend" - https://ironbeancoffee.com/collections/the-backroom/products/my-little-friend-dark-colombian Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/sundaygrindpod - we'd love your support! Website - https://www.sundaygrindpod.com Not for much longer! :) Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/sundaygrindpod/ Twitter - https://twitter.com/sundaygrindpod Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/sundaygrindpod TikTok - https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMJHytMqj/ Artwork done by Briana Wardwell - https://www.instagram.com/brianadoesart/ All music Composed By Robert Brown and used with permission ©Crazy Dog Media LLC. All rights reserved

Dr Mac joins Kelly to discuss his migration away from Evernote, and how Notes has become his digital shoebox thanks to a few key features.

continuamos forte, firmes e com visões do futuro

Max: Hello and welcome back to the Recruitment Hackers Podcast. I'm your host, Max Armbruster, and today on the show I've got a world traveler, a man who I first interacted with in Malaysia a few years ago and who has since moved industries and has worked in entertainment, in games today, and a few other, and oiling gas before, and is today the Director of People and Legal for Big Viking Games. Welcome to the show, Bob. Mr. Bob St-Jacques, I hope I'm pronouncing it right. Welcome to the show, Bob.Bob: All right, well thank you, Max, happy to be here.Max: Pleasure to have you. And of course, we interacted with Bob when he was leading the people function at a company called 7Geese which got acquired by Paycor which is a leader in OKR methodologies. So, for the HR performance enthusiasts that are listening, they'll be familiar with OKR methodology and it's a great foundation for start-ups. So, anyway, that's a little bit about your background but perhaps, Bob, I'd like to ask you to walk us back to the early days of how you ended up working in talent acquisition and dealing with people. Was it by design or by accident?Bob: It was by design because I had a very good mentor and it was, going back a few years, 1992 and I was going to get a master's in industrial relations with Cornell and my mentor suggested, he said, what do you want to do? I said, I wanna do HR. He said, no no no that's not gonna work.  He said what you need to do is pick a problem. Pick something that you wanna pour your heart and soul into and I said, well HR is basically broken, right? 91, 92, there was a recession going on in North America. I was working in Parliament at the time, so we were holding hearings, and nobody was happy. Employees, employers, communities would lay off. Nobody was happy. So, I said, hey look this is one of those problems that, like climate change, it's big and I can't fix all of it, but maybe I can fix something. So, he said, look if you wanna do that, go to law school and practice employment law then go into HR because you will spend the first five years learning from other people's mistakes. So that's exactly what I did. I went to law school, practiced employment law for five years and then got hired by my client. And basically, what I've done since 2000 is work on transformation efforts. So, in the beginning, they were turned around. So, I worked for a client who's called the Lens Crafters and they were in pretty rough shape, but if anybody wonders why I'm an optimist two and a half years later they're number 58 on the Fortune 100 best companies to work for list. Then I worked at Delta Airlines after 9/11, so I turned them around, right. So, this is why my optimism comes in. Moved to Dubai, things got a little bit more difficult because I had to help transform companies that were in scale-up and that were already growing about a hundred percent every year and how do you tell those folks, you're leaving money on the table you need to do more. So that was a further challenge and so I helped a lot of high growth organizations in Dubai, all over the Middle East, South Asia and Africa as well, worked in oil and gas in Nigeria for example. And then I went to the Far East and started focusing on tech, tech high-growth companies, tech scale-ups in that area and I've done the same thing here in Vancouver. So, the central theme is I've kept to my mission which is I want to help HR. And that's what I've done throughout my whole career. Sometimes, as you mentioned, being an OKR expert, spreading the love and the gospel of it, of OKRs, and sometimes there's goals more specific toward the company.Max: I think it's good advice for the young people to walk towards the problem, not away from the problem. You see an industry that's broken and a company that has issues and, you know, don't run away from it. That's an opportunity to make an impact and to work on a whole career duration on fixing something. I can empathize with that on my end. I saw a lot of broken things that I'm still trying to fix on high volume recruitment. So, maybe a word about Big Viking Games, your current company, which I understand has gone through some transformation over the last few months since you've been there for six months now. And we're gonna talk about how the talent acquisition strategy has been transformed to expand the talent pool. But can you set the scene for us, what does this company do?Bob: Yeah, so, Big Viking Games was started at, well I could tell you, it was 10 years ago in about a month. We just celebrated our 10th anniversary which is a pretty big deal. Only 4% of companies make it to 10 years so we had a fun event for everybody, and we managed to bring a bunch of people together. Now the challenge was six months ago is that the company had been making games but had been kinda flat-lined and just kinda been bumbling along for the past three four years. And so, they were looking to revive and expand. And the interesting piece is that in the gaming industry it's usually boom and bust all the time, right. Hire a bunch of people to make a new game, I'll make some money, oh you sold it off and then you drop the right number of employees and the revenue goes like this, it's big yoyo. So, what they decided was that's not sustainable and that's not great for employees. Employees in the gaming industry will tell you, yeah, I've been laid off and hired, right. You look at gaming LinkedIn profiles and they've all had 14 jobs in 10 years and it's not because they're job-hoppers, it's been most of the time because they've been laid off. So, the company decided to move towards a live operations model. What does that mean? It means they don't create their own games, they either expand things that they have, and they typically buy intellectual property and then expand it and run it. So that's a big switch from making games boom-and-bust to just kind of like very linear growth. And so, it's a challenge because you need different types of people, different types of mindset in that area.Max: Basically, in the oil and gas, it's like moving from being a builder to an operator.Bob: Correct. And so, there was the challenge. We need different types of individuals, different types of talents. and we needed to grow, and we were looking at acquisitions and so on. So fast forward, six months, what we have found ourselves is before we were in one vertical where we had a Facebook/Web games there which you know was alot so we had really high MPS scores. 70% of our players play our game 27 out of 28 days which is pretty impressive for games right. So, we got this loyal fan base. But now, we've attached, we've done an acquisition, we've expanded on a couple areas and so as folks will see throughout December, we will be putting out press releases in these areas. So, where we were in one verticals, we will not be in four verticals starting in January as we close these deals. So that's created some challenges and opportunity areas as well because we got new places we're expanding into and we're also expanding our current offerings. So, another piece of good news and we just got it less than 24 hours ago, again talk about the power transformation. When I joined, the Glassdoor score for the company was 2.2, when I said things are bumbling along, it was a bit in rough shape. Yesterday we were just notified by the Great Place To Work Institute that we are certified by them as a great place to work. So, when people talk about transformation is too hard, and I love the phrase that you used, running towards the problem. So, if you look at things as an opportunity in terms of aligning people behind the business strategy, OKRs and things like that, once you get alignment and you clarified the strategy for everybody, employees tend to follow along, right, to support you in that area, and that's what we found.Max: Congrats on the Great Place To Work and the transformation, I mean it's not a turn-around, but it's kind of a pivot for Big Viking Games and of course it does sound like a nicer environment for people who want a bit of stability after they changed 14 different jobs in 10 years. That could work your nerves out a little bit. Let's turn to the topic of talent acquisition and you changed the process there as well which you were telling me before we started recording. The testing has started to effect, the use of automated assessments, has changed the composition of your talent people and allowed you to expand to new talent pools. Bob: Correct. So, what we did was, again, because of the challenges that we face in terms of going into new areas we needed new and different talent, is that we decided to turn the whole selection testing paradigm on its head. Usually, people use these tools as deselection tools. So how do we get folks to get them out of the process. We test them and then that's it, they're out and so on. We turned that around. What we wanted to do was opt people in. Let me give you an example. Here's like, we were down to the basics. If we look at a situation where we're looking for a developer, an artist, and so on. Nowhere in the job description does it require these individuals to be excellent at creating resumes. And not to pick on developers, they're not, they're really really bad at writing resumes, right, and showing their skills set and so on and so forth. So, what we said was, you know, we get hundreds of applications, some case thousands of applications per position, you try to read through them the best you can, right. Most people they do a good job of communicating their skills, they tend to get interviews and so on. But what we did was like we're missing people; we're missing some diamonds in the rough. So, what we did was when we saw, we went beyond, right, when somebody was working at a grocery store, but like went down the resume and saw that they had worked as a developer before, right, and for whatever reason they're working at a grocery store now. But like fine. So, what we do is we tested these people in the beginning. And the quid pro quo is we said, look we'll test your own skills, resilience, and general ability, and you know what, we will give you the test, we will give you the feedback, we will give you your scores, the test, the report, everything, just work with us on this. Now here's what happened, if we would have taken one of those CVs which is in pretty rough shape and give it to the VP of Engineering, you would have said, are you kidding me, I can't. Now what happens is if this person's score is very high, intelligence, problem solving, resilience, and skills set, we can say, look this is a CV it's not so great, but look here we have documented proof that this person should be interviewed and move on to the next level.Max: So, the first time the candidate is speaking to somebody, a recruiter or somebody from your team, they've already done the assessments, how long does that assessment typically take. Half an hour, an hour?Bob: Yeah, no more than an hour, right, cause there's four components to it and then they're about 10-15 minutes each. Max: So, then the big question for a lot of employers is, you know this is a very high demand market. I'm sure for hiring artists and developers is very hard as well. How is that not shrinking your talent pool to a very miniscule amount. Sounds great, you know, of course, you get an assessment done before an interview, but that's not how recruitment used to be done. You used to, like, hit the phone and hunt these people. So how you filling the top of the funnel.Bob: In terms of the top of the funnel, those are coming through via ads and so on. So top of the funnel is fine for us. The important piece here is that when we were talking to the folks at various testing regimes, a lot of them said, when we said, hey we wanna offer the test back to the candidate, and they're like why? And I said, well that's the quid pro quo, that's the magic there. Because people will do things if there's something in it for them. Now there are, we use, for example, I don't know if I can say it maybe you could cut it out later if I'm not allowed to, but we use Test Gorilla. Test Gorilla has a certain amount of cache and individuals who take their test are allowed to use their results and give it to other employers. Max: I tried them out. I think they're great. Test Gorilla very easy to use and they have a very wide selection. They're a Netherlands-based company, all self-service, easy to use with APIs to integrate. So, love it.Bob: So that's what we do, right. So, we give people something and that's how we keep the testing level quite high. Now here's the interesting piece because we look at data, so I'm also a fellow in the Center for Evidence-based Management so I am really big on data, right. I wear a watch, I keep track, I can tell you what my macros were last Tuesday at 3pm. I am a fanatic about measuring everything. So, what we did was we said, okay what happened to people who went through the process. So applied or head-hunted, interview, tech test, our very difficult tech test versus applied, Test Gorilla, interview, tech test. What we found was that the uptake on our tech test during our traditional process was 50% five zero. When they took the quick test, got something for it, did the interview and had to do a very in-depth tech test, we're looking at about 85-90%. So, we nearly doubled the people. So even though we've added an extra level, again it's the counter-intuitive piece and this is why you need to look at data. Because if you were to ask me, I would have said, yeah, I don't think this will work. But it's important to measure what you do and put your scientist hat on and say, this is an experiment, it can blow up in my face or it can produce the most wonderful thing every. What we found is because we start by giving something, yes, they're investing their time but they're getting something back for it. People feel like, okay, you know, they continue with the processMax: How do you communicate to them that they're getting something? How do you let them know that they're gonna get something back?Bob: So, when we let them know that they've been selected for the initial test, we tell them, hey look, here's the advantages, you get to keep your test, here's the feedback, here's sample reports, and with some of the skills in tech testing, they're transferable and other employers accept. Max: Yeah, they can get like an act of accreditation that they can put on their profile or something. Bob: Correct, yeah, and it'll be verified by Test Gorilla.Max: Cool. Well, I certainly think you're not alone in making this happen right now. There's a change in candidate behaviors worldwide where they're getting used to it basically. There was an intuition from the TA community that this is too much, but that intuition is being tested and minds are changing on this topic, including mine. I can't believe the completion rates that I hear about for test that take 45 minutes to an hour and I'm shocked myself. Because I always assume that with the shrinking attention span of the young generations that we know about that this is something that they would not do. But well, that's why you gotta test your assumption.Bob: Yeah, and part, this came from one of my recruiters who tends to skew towards the younger generation, and he said, look people are taking these Buzzfeed and other quizzes all the time. There are millions of people, right. And they get a report back. You're a part of this house in Harry Potter and you're this type of potato, and you're this type of vegetable. You know, these people take those quizzes all the time. He said, look it's a higher level and it's something that's verified from a real company, like Test Gorilla. They got something that can help the in their job search and/or career and/or professional life. One other thing that I wish I could say, oh yeah yeah you know we totally planned this, again, because I look at the numbers and what we found by focusing on skills rather than ability to write a resume or CV is that for the past six months, 43% of our new hires are women and 52% are what we call here in Canada BIPOCs, so black, indigenous or people of color. So, again compared that to the rest of the gaming and tech industry, especially here in North America, we're doing quite well, we're on the right track. And I wish I could have said, oh we planned this, you know we did reach to certain group, you know, in those areas, but what we found again by focusing more on skills and abilities and less on the resume, we ended up with a much more diverse workforce. Max: Congratulations. That's the right way to go about it. Focus on competency, give everybody a chance. Glad to see it's paying off and helping you increase your DI metrics. There's maybe another element which is the fact that you're breaking down some of the borders and some of the geographical boundaries of your search and you were telling me how you're leveraging Canada as part of your employer brand. Can you share that story?Bob: Yeah, when the pandemic hit, the decision was made early on, and we basically cancelled our leases with our offices. We had two studios, one in London, Ontario which is about two hours west of Toronto and one is downtown Toronto, and so gone, studios gone.  So, they went all in on transitioning to 100% remote. Again, sounds very good in theory but everybody was learning on the go, so to speak, and you know you've seen all the stories from everywhere from LinkedIn to all kinds of magazines.Max: I've seen my own rental bills go down and I'm very happy about it.Bob: Yeah. So, the thing is then it's taking a lot of that and investing in different pieces. So, in terms of talent acquisition, what is 100% in what we call Remote Awesome. It's a campaign that we started where you're free to move about the world. So, it's telling our Canadian employees, look you're not stuck in Canada. If you wanna go work in Barbados or Mexico for the winter, you could do that too. In terms of recruitment, though, what's happened is we've done two fronts. We said, look, you can come work for us, we work on a concept of core hours, and we do asynchronous work, and you can stay where you are. You could then stay where you are for six months and come to Canada if you want. Or if you want to come to Canada, we will help facilitate your move to Canada. So we tend to take a wide open approach and say, it's up to you. People are at different points of their lives, so some folks come to work for us and boom, either we start the process fairly quickly and other folks will say, yeah next summer, you know, basically July 2022 is when I'd like to apply, it'll take x amount of time, that'll be perfect. So, we, by focusing on, hey either we're able to work based on your interest. Staying where you are, including asynchronous work so you're not working from 11PM to 7AM, some sort of horrible shift. You know maybe like for example, I start work at 5AM because east coast time and we have exec meetings in the morning. Why do we have that? Because some of our executive team is in India and they've been working the large part of the day, right. So, it's that kind of flexibility that we can offer people and say, no everybody in the world has to work eastern standard time hours. That's not the case. And so, we offer flexibility, stay where you are, move later or move now. And so, with that approach, we've managed to get some amazing talents. So, we've grown from employees in two countries when I've joined, we're now up to 14 countries.Max: And their contracts are, some of them are local contracts and some of them are Canadian contracts and some of them are consultant contracts?Bob: Exactly. So, it depends on how long they're gonna spend. So, if you're on your way here, it's a consultant contract, right. So, it helps with integration so we could show immigration, we know who they are, they've worked with us for a little while, bring them in. If they wanna stay there permanently, then we use a local vendor that we pay people through and so that makes sure that all the right deductions are made, and they get access to all the social benefits. For example, France, Netherlands, and the UK. I think in France I think there was like 27 deductions from an individual's salary. So that was interesting to see. But again ---Max: Now you know why I left the country. Bob: Yeah. But that's managed for us. So, we just pay one entity an amount for an employee, and they handle all the deductions and payments. Max: There are a lot of vendors helping with this domain now and I suppose people can reach out to you if they need some recommendations on how to source the right vendor here. Have you had a discussion internally about having local payrates? I mean, you said people can work from anywhere. So, I guess everybody is paid, there's no differences based on where you live and their cost of living. Usually, people have different pay scales for different, let's say, geographies.Bob: No, we run on CTC, which is concept called cost-to-company. So, we look at it, right, so some have higher social legislation requirements, we'll call it that, some have lesser, right. But at the end of the day, what we look at is what the company pays out overall. So that people are paid about the same no matter where they are in the world. Again, we focus on skills, competencies, and so where you are doesn't matter because we do have a fairly tough and rigorous hiring system. So, if you do get through it, we know you're qualified, we know you're able to produce a certain amount of work which has a certain amount of value and we will pay you, just like we pay everybody else that's in a similar position to you no matter where you are. Max: Great, that's great. We in my company also universal pay scales and I'm trying to ring them up to San Francisco standards, but some people on LinkedIn were saying we're not as generous as we should be, but we're working up to it. If the whole world could be paid like San Francisco that'd be awesome. We're working towards that. We're reaching the end of our conversation and there's one question I'd like to ask everybody that comes on the show which is to go back to a hiring mistake that you've made in the past that has stayed with you a little bit and that you had time to reflect on so that you can share with the listeners the lesson that they can take from bad hiring mistake. Of course, I'm not asking for individual name but rather how you took a misstep that one time.Bob: Yes, and so I'm gonna go a little bit against the grain, because I know I've highlighted that I tend to focus on data and information. So, one time I went through a process I was hiring a fairly senior member of my team, Global Recruitment Director, and you know we're getting close, and it was very exciting. When I was doing that, I was asking for references, and when I talked to these references, it was very, something was off. And I'm a lawyer and I could just ask people all kinds of questions, usually you could get them to admit the most horrific thing they did when they were thirteen years old. And I thought I was very good, but something was eating at me, like, I'm missing something, like something's wrong here in this area. And it turned out that I was not as prepared as I could be for those reference checks. Three months later, that individual turned into a nightmare on many fronts, internal, external. It did a lot of reputational damage to the company from that individual. And it's one of those pieces where I've learned where I was a little bit cocky, and I didn't listen to my gut. So rather than be the experimenter, you know what I mean, something came up, I should've asked more questions and I didn't because I was in a hurry and i wanted to find this person, and this individual seemed great, right. And I cut corners, didn't listen to my gut and ended up coming back to be quite embarrassing for me. Max: That's a tough one right because you said you're the data guy and the guts got nothing to do with it, we're trying to silence that thing. But in this case, something was wrong with the reference check. Can you expand on that a bit? What were maybe some signals?Bob: It was the guarded nature, right. I talked at high levels, we tend to be quite positive, right. So, when you talk to people and say, okay you know hey I'm going to be managing this individual what kind of development do you think that they need? And it was two references where there was a pause and I thought that was fascinating. On that pause, I should've jumped on that more. But it was ---Max: This person needs therapy. Okay. All right. So, listen to the pause when you're doing your reference checks because obviously nobody likes to say bad things about their former employees. It can be a treacherous territory so you gotta be very attentive. Good lesson for everyone to remember. Thanks, Bob, for coming on the show and sharing your experience in expanding your talent pool and transforming the recruitment process of Viking Games. It's been a pleasure. Bob: All right. Well, thank you for having me on.Max: Pleasure.

¿Hay algo más clasista, más machista y más cruel que una lista de mejor y peor vestidas? Bob cree que no. Y esa es solo una de las muchas listas que le parecen detestables: desde la de morosos de hacienda a la de convocados a la selección. Y eso sin entrar en el trauma que tiene con Gran Hermano. Que lo tiene. Y lo cuenta. Todo aquí. 

Tracklist: 1.Alegant, Tube & Berger - Get Down (Original Mix) 2.Yotto, Cassian - Inter (Extended Mix) 3.Ali Bakgor - In A Dream (Extended Mix) 4.ARTBAT, Sailor & I - Best Of Me (Original Mix) 5.Faithless - I Need Someone (Yotto Mix) 6.Pretty Pink - Come Back (Original Mix) 7.Oliver Schories & Jan Blomqvist - Packard (Nora En Pure Mix) 8.Artaria & Jean Vayat Ft.Evelynka - Sun Is Setting (Original Mix) 9.Paul Oakenfold - Stonehenge (Club Mix) 10.Gorgon City & DRAMA - You've Done Enough (Extended Mix) 11.KC Lights - Girl (Extended Mix) 12.King Arthur, LoKii - Down With Me (Extended Mix) 13.CamelPhat & Will Easton - Witching Hour (Extended Mix) ---Reporter: You made a lot of money out of you're music? Bob: Money? I mean, how much is a lot of money to you? Reporter: That's a good question. Have you made, say millions of dollars? Bob: No. Reporter: Are you a rich man? Bob: What you mean rich, what ya mean? Reporter: Do you have a lot of possessions? Lot of money in the bank? Bob: Possession make you rich? I don't have that type of richness. My richness is life, forever. Bob Marley--- **If you're enjoying the podcast. You can support it by sharing, rating or reviewing** **Link to podcast homepage: https://djluttz1111.podomatic.com/ ** **Check out the Dance Classics podcast by Dj Luttz (Club & Trance Classics) https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/dance-classics-podcast-by-djluttz/id1511309692 **

Bob: Do you personally feel disease and sickness? Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: Is this a result of your past karma? Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: So one in this material world never escapes his karma completely? Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, he escapes. No more karma for a devotee. No more karmic reaction. Bob: But you must be the best devotee. Śrīla Prabhupāda: Hm-m... No, I don't consider myself the best devotee. I am the lowest. Bob: No! Śrīla Prabhupāda: You are the best devotee. Bob: [Laughs.] Oh, no, no! But, see, you say—what you say... always seems right. Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: Then you must be the best devotee. Śrīla Prabhupāda: The thing is that even the best devotee, when he preaches, comes to the second-class platform of a devotee. Bob: What would the best devotee be doing? Śrīla Prabhupāda: The best devotee does not preach. Bob: What does he do? Śrīla Prabhupāda: He sees that there is no need of preaching. For him, everyone is a devotee. [Bob laughs heartily] Yes, he sees no more nondevotees—all devotees. He is called an uttama-adhikārī. But while I am preaching, how can I say I am the best devotee? Just like Rādhārāṇī—She does not see anyone as a nondevotee. Therefore we try to approach Rādhārāṇī. Bob: Who is this? Śrīla Prabhupāda: Rādhārāṇī, Kṛṣṇa's consort. Bob: Ah. Śrīla Prabhupāda: If anyone approaches Rādhārāṇī, She recommends to Kṛṣṇa, “Here is the best devotee. He is better than Me,” and Kṛṣṇa cannot refuse him. That is the best devotee. But it is not to be imitated: “I have become the best devotee.” īśvare tad-adhīneṣu bāliśeṣu dviṣatsu ca prema-maitrī-kṛpopekṣā yaḥ karoti sa madhyamaḥ (Bhāg. 11.2.46) A second-class devotee has the vision that some are envious of God, but this is not the vision of the best devotee. The best devotee sees, “Nobody is envious of God. Everyone is better than me.” Just like Caitanya-caritāmṛta's author, Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja. He says, “I am lower than the worm in the stool.” Bob: Who is saying this? Śrīla Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja, the author of Caitanya-caritāmṛta: purīṣera kīṭa haite muñi se laghiṣṭha. He is not making a show. He is feeling like that. “I am the lowest. Everyone is best, but I am the lowest. Everyone is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. I am not engaged.” Caitanya Mahāprabhu said “Oh, I have not a pinch of devotion to Kṛṣṇa. I cry to make a show. If I had been a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, I would have died long ago. But I am living. That is the proof that I do not love Kṛṣṇa.” That is the vision of the best devotee. He is so much absorbed in Kṛṣṇa's love that he says, “Everything is going on, but I am the lowest. Therefore I cannot see God.” That is the best devotee | Read along with me: www.biglink.to/perfect_questions_perfect_answers

FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Creating A More Romantic Marriage Day 3 off 8 Guest:                             Barbara Rainey From the Series:          A Woman's View of Romance________________________________________________________________­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today with your host, the executive director of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey.  I'm Bob Lepine.  Today on the broadcast Barbara Rainey joins us to talk about what happens when a man loves a woman.  Stay with us for FamilyLife Today. (Music:  "When A Man Loves A Woman")                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today.  Thanks for joining us on the broadcast, and if you were not here with us yesterday, you're in big trouble is what you are – if you're a man, particularly. Dennis:          That's right. Bob:                I took notes on yesterday's broadcast, and I've got my pencil ready today, because we're learning how a woman views romance.  Dennis:          We're learning how a woman thinks. Bob:                That's right.  And women think differently – that's not wrong – they think differently than men, don't they? Dennis:          They do, and, well, we've got someone in the studio who is definitely a woman.  She is a great woman, she is my wife, and it's really fun to have Barbara back with us on the broadcast again today.  Bob:                Yeah, Barbara, welcome back to the broadcast. Barbara:         Thanks, glad to be here. Bob:                You know, yesterday – and I've been thinkin' about this all night.  I went home and just kinda mulled on this.  It's a little frustrating to know that once I have an idea of how my wife views romance, she's going to change the rules on me – that was one of the lessons from yesterday's broadcast ­– and to be aware that romance is going to get progressively harder as we continue in marriage.  It was easy in courtship, but it gets progressively harder as we're married.  Is that right? Dennis:          Absolutely.   Bob:                Well, that's lousy. Dennis:          Well, you think about – what's God up to here?  He is trying to rid us of selfishness and, if we could, we would kick it in neutral and just coast all the way in to year 50 of the marriage – we wouldn't have to work at it.  It would just be like jumpin' off the edge of a cliff.  We would romantically fall into each other's arms and hopelessly under the control of romance, like gravity, and not have to really work at knowing and loving and caring for and meeting the needs of the other person.  And I think that's why God created marriage – He created it to be redemptive.  He wants me to give up my life for my wife. Barbara:         Exactly. Dennis:          And that's why romance becomes really elusive in a marriage where a man is threatening to leave or a man is sending all kinds of signals that he's not committed, and he's putting fear in the marriage, not casting it out.  1 John, chapter 4, talks about "perfect love casting out all fear," and that's a man's assignment, and a lot of men want their wives to fall in a puddle at their feet and romantic love in a swoon, but they're not willing to give up their hobbies, their interests, their selfish desires for their wives.  Now, how do I know that?  Because I'm a man, and because I've done that. Barbara:         See, when I was thinkin', when you talked about it being redemptive, I was thinking that as you were saying that, and that, ultimately, is what is going to draw a wife to her husband, because when she sees him loving her unconditionally, seeking to understand her and know her and be involved in her life and help her and all of those things, then she is going to respond to him, and as she sees him giving up himself and denying himself and getting rid of his bad habits or putting away his hobbies or whatever for her, those kinds of things are redemptive, and so I think that, in the long haul of things, as we see marriage as being a redemptive relationship, that is the hope of responding to one another.  That is the hope of having romance – is growing together in Christ, denying yourselves for each other, and especially for a husband as the head of the home and the head of his wife, as he will deny himself for her, as he will love her, as he will sacrifice for her, if he will seek to understand her – why she is the way she is and accept her for that and not condemn her for it and not seek to understand her so he can get her to change so he can be happy with her, but all in pursuit of loving her, then she will respond to that ultimately.  Again, it has to be for the purpose, though, that God intended, and that is to love her as Christ loved the church. Dennis:          With no response in return. Barbara:         That's right – with no strings attached.  In other words, he can't say, "I'm going to do this, and then she's going to respond, and then I'll get what I want," because that defeats the purpose of sacrificial love, because then it's not self-sacrificing. Dennis:          And that's the difficulty for a man, because a man usually sets goals, and he is after something, and with romance it may be the sexual dimension of the marriage relationship that he is in pursuit of his wife on, and that's why, as you approach this subject of romance and learning how to speak it as a man to your wife, you've got to understand that you deny your agenda and let the goal be solely that she would feel love; that she would know she is valued, cared for, and cherished, and that she is seeing you nourish her, just as Ephesians 5 talks about. Bob:                But here's the rub in that – because a man is thinking to himself – "The way I'll know that, the way I'll know that she's been loved is she'll respond." Dennis:          Right. Bob:                So if she's not responding, then the message is – Dennis:          "I haven't done a good job loving her." Bob:                I haven't done a good job – Dennis:          – and we've had that conversation. Barbara:         You've said that to me many times. Dennis:          I have. Barbara:         "I must not be loving you right," and it's not just because I'm not responding sexually or in a particular way, but you're sensing from me a lack of response toward you, and it's because of areas in my life that you didn't understand or that you didn't know about me or that I was unable to trust at a particular phase, and so we've talked those things through.  And I think good, solid, marriage relationships need to take the risk of talking those things through, and I needed to hear you say that, and you needed to hear back from me why I was not feeling loved, why I was not feeling like I could respond, and those kinds of conversations are not easy to have.  I mean, they have been difficult conversations that we've had through the years, but because of our commitment to making this thing work is to making it be all that God intended it to be, we have had some of those really tough conversations, and they've not been fun but, in the long run, as we've had them and had them again, they have ultimately been productive in bringing understanding to each of us, but particularly to Dennis in understanding me and in better how to love me. Dennis:          You know, as you were talking, there were really two things that I was thinking about – number one, the process that we have been through of 22 years of dialog, and I mean, at points, fierce dialog, I mean heated dialog, and the second thing is what we're talking about here has come out of something that is most fundamental, and that is a commitment, a bedrock, granite-solid that is immovable. Barbara:         That's right. Dennis:          No escape clauses, no escape hatches, no way out. Barbara:         And no threats. Dennis:          And no threats – never a threat.  This freedom of discussion has come about as a result of two people who are committed – committed, first of all, to Jesus Christ, because without the fear of the Lord and a commitment to Him and setting ourselves apart unto Him first, deciding He will be our Lord and Savior of our lives, our Master, our Redeemer.  He sets the agenda.  It is Him that must be obeyed above all else.  That settles it.  But there have been some evenings that lasted long into the night and some mornings that came early as a result of the dialog.  When we got up in the morning, and we looked at each other, there was no thought of going anywhere.  It was two people deeply committed to Christ, and that commitment was mirrored in our commitment to one another. Bob:                Yeah, those are the late nights or the early mornings, I'll look at Mary Ann, and I'll say, "You are not my enemy," and she'll say, "You are not my enemy," and we'll keep going, we'll keep after it. Dennis:          And I think a lot of young couples that are listening to our broadcast today and who go through life – they think they're entering into real war at these points and, yeah, it's rugged.  You're climbing some craggy cliffs at this point, but you know what?  That's a part of a relationship.  I mean, if it was easy and there were no rocky points, I guess I would have to say, "Hm, I think I may fear for you a little bit.  Have you not had anything hard to work through?"  I mean, I really fear for the couple who say they haven't ever argued, who haven't really differed, who haven't really had to hammer some of these misunderstandings out, because it's in those discussions that you realize how different you are from one another, and what a gift God has given you in your spouse. Bob:                I can imagine that there are women who listen to this discussion and they're going, "Yes, somebody understands what it's like to be a woman.  Somebody understands what women want romantically in marriage," and men listen to it, and they go, "This is much harder work than I ever thought it would be."   Dennis:          That's right. Barbara:         That's right. Dennis:          You go back, and you look at the first year of marriage, and the first year of marriage is like falling off that cliff.  We just kind of fall into each other's arms, and you can't stay away from each other, and you fall helplessly under the control of gravity – romance – and you get married and, all of a sudden, you realize it's not as easy to create that over and over and over again, and then you have children, and you find out it's very difficult, and then you've got health problems and there's job issues and then there are emotional issues and there are extended-family issues, and life becomes cluttered and crowded – Barbara:         – and complicated – Dennis:          That's right – where the Lord Himself is at work in your life whittling away and, at that point, it's where the commitment has to kick in, and two people must say to one another – "I love you, I'm committed, we're goin' for it," because, in the end, they are going to have a real relationship with a real person who knows them.  And I've said this to Barbara, even in the middle of some of our heated discussions over the past 22 years – I would rather have the discussion and have the understanding in one another's lives than to go through life denying that I'm disappointed or denying that we have a disagreement or denying that I've got feelings and, as a man, stuff it and have her think she's winning, and you've got to get some of those things out. But that is a risky feeling because that means the other person has to hear this and must hear it without feeling threatened or like they are being attacked or like the commitment is falling into question.  And that's a real challenge – to let somebody know that you're upset in the middle of the moment but still let them know, "You know what? I'm not goin' anywhere.  I love you, I'm committed to you, but we've got to talk this thing out," and this is where I'd give the man's side of things toward a woman, as a man has tried to love his wife, and he's missed it, and a woman needs to understand that at those points he may be feeling like a failure as a man.  He may have done the best he knows how to do, and he's got to be coached, and the time to coach him is not right after he fails because at that point he's probably feeling like a failure already, anyway.  But write him a letter, somehow communicate to him, but let him know how can he win you and then realize you're going to probably have to re-write that letter again in two or three years after he's – moves it to an A+B=C. Barbara:         Well, and let him know that you appreciate him trying – I mean, even that is worth a lot, because I think a woman who understands that her husband is trying to love her and is trying to understand her, she needs to let him know that she appreciates that and that she values that. Bob:                Do you love Dennis more today than you did 22 years ago? Barbara:         Oh, gosh, yes. Dennis:          I wouldn't go back to that first year of marriage – Bob:                Well, now, wait – with that said, how come it doesn't feel like it?  I mean, back 22 years ago, when all of the feelings were there, was gravity fallin' off a cliff – how come if you loved him so much more 22 years later it doesn't feel like it did then? Barbara:         Well, I think because I know him more, and I know what his love means.  I mean, I know what it's cost him.  I mean, it's cost him a lot to love me, and he has denied himself a lot.  He has given a lot, he's done a lot, he's prayed a lot, he's tried a lot, he's failed a lot, and I know that it's not cheap.   Bob:                Do you think there will come a time in the future when it will feel more like it did at the beginning? Barbara:         I suppose that there's potential for that, just because circumstantially, as the kids are gone and there are less pressures with children and the things that right now are making life stressful for me, and we have more opportunity to spend one-on-one time together, I suppose that there's a potential for that, but I – you know – Bob:                – do you think it will?  Do you think as the years go on, some of that early romantic feeling will re-emerge? Dennis:          I think that we have probably gone through one of the toughest periods, or seasons, of our marriage.  We had six kids in 10 years.  I think those years are among the most challenging.  Now we've just gone through another season where we had four teenagers at one time.  That's another season incredibly challenging – maybe even moreso than the six kids in 10 years, because there were some health issues occurring in that period, as well, that were making that especially challenging, too. But I think, little by little, as the kids leave, and as Barbara's attention can come back again – not solely to me, because her life has never revolved totally around me – but more towards me, I think there will be more room for that to happen, because there will be more time for just the two of us in our relationship and being together.  Because we can't go together a lot of times right now on a plane because she needs to stay here and be a part of the PTA or ministry outreach that the kids are having – or be there just to take care of the kids. Bob:                And it's the couples who, during the time when the kids are growing, who kind of move everything to the back shelf or let the flame die out, who reach that later time, and there's nothin' there. Dennis:          Yeah, and that's why this series on romance is so important – I don't think the Christian community is talking enough about romance.  I mean, it is important to a marriage.  Now, we've talked about how difficult it is to achieve, and it's elusive, and it's hard, and it's difficult, and you can't be guaranteed of it.  Now make it important.  Now it almost sounds like a crazy maker, but I think God wants us to have fire in our friendship with our spouse, and I think romance is that fire that flows out of that commitment and that friendship, and I think we've got to pursue one another because I think God put it within us both to long for it, to want it.  And in the process of longing for that, for a man, I think it provides the motivation to pursue his wife.  I think God gave it to him to do that so that he would pursue her.  Otherwise, if a man didn't feel that, what would there be to draw the man toward his wife?  Toward giving up his agenda for her and his rights?  I would have to say I don't know what the motivation would be, other than just some super-spiritual definition. Barbara:         Yeah, just obey the command. Dennis:          And that just sounds bland.  Who wants to experience that?  Barbara and I have anything other than a boring marriage.  Is there a lot of romance in our relationship?  Yes.  But is it the kind that Hollywood depicts on the screen?  She's shaking her head no.  No, it's not.  It's not.  It is much deeper than that.  I mean, that's shallow. Barbara:         The relationship and the commitment and the knowing one another and growing closer and closer together – that's what defines the romance, and that's what it blossoms out of – is that relationship. Bob:                Well, have a great weekend.  Be back with us on Monday because Barbara's going to join us again, and we're going through Dennis Rainey's Top 10 list of romantic ideas, right – the Top 10 most romantic ideas in America. Dennis:          That's right.  Are we going to give any of 'em today just to tease 'em? Bob:                No, no, no – they've got to tune in Monday.  This is information that you got from research that we did – Dennis:          – that's right.  We surveyed over 800 couples.  So this is the best of the best, Bob. Bob:                Well, doing my best Casey Kasem impression – "we won't quit 'til we get all the way to Number 1."  That's Casey Kasem.  Come on, you remember American Top 40, don't you? Dennis:          Oh, yeah. Bob:                Yeah, that's on Monday's edition of FamilyLife Today.  Join us for that.  Our engineer is Mark Whitlock, our host Dennis Rainey – Dennis:          Do you have these out-of-body experiences often? Bob:                I'm Casey Kasem, we'll see you Monday on FamilyLife Today. (Music:  "When A Man Loves A Woman")                         FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.  __________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, could   you consider donating today to help defray 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Philanthropy Misunderstood by Bob Hopkins The word PHILANTHROPY isn't new, but many think being a philanthropist is about money. In Bob Hopkins' new book, he assures us it IS NOT. He and 100 of his friends define, by way of their good deeds, that philanthropy is about LOVE OF MANKIND. Philanthropy Misunderstood is a 256-page coffee- table book that will surely entertain and inform you. You won't want to put it down. It is colorful and exciting. “Bob Hopkins Introduces us to 100 plus new best friends…people like you and me who give of themselves who actually LOVE others. What a joyful time Bob shares with us. Optimism and hope emerge from every page. Each person's story sparkles. Each one makes us prouder to be fellow ‘homo-sapiens'.” Dr. Claire Gaudiani, philanthropist, author and international lecturer. Bob recalls his first experience with his mother when he was five years old in Garden City, Kansas as they delivered groceries to a poor family during the holidays. He remembers the pat on the back he received from someone for doing good. “Maybe it was God,” he recalled. For more information, go to Philanthropy Misunderstood.   Read the Interview Hugh Ballou: Greetings. Welcome to this episode of The Nonprofit Exchange. Wow. This is going to open your mind to a whole new world. I just met Bob Hopkins recently on a recent trip to Dallas. Some of our previous guests that started Barefoot Winery said, “You have to meet Bob.” When I was in Dallas, I rang him up, and we met. They had shared his book with me called Philanthropy Misunderstood. I thought it was a nice book. When I started digging into the stories and what Bob knew about philanthropy, I said, “We have to share this with other people.” Bob, welcome to The Nonprofit Exchange. Tell people a little bit about you and your passion. Bob Hopkins: Thank you, Hugh. I am so honored to be invited to be here with you as your guest today. I am glad to know that there are some other people in the book in your audience today. I am an older person. I have been around for a long time. Every 20 years, I ask myself, “What am I doing, and where am I going?” I have divided myself into four different segments of my life. I am on the last 18 years. I give myself another 18 years to live. I am trying to figure out what to do, so I am probably going to go to a seminar called PSI in June to find out what I'm going to do next. But, Hugh, I have been involved with this word “philanthropy” for the last 45-50 years. I learn more about what it means all the time. Then I became confused and realized that what I thought philanthropy was is not. Or maybe it is part of, but that's why I had to dig into it and tell stories of 108 people who actually do philanthropic things for other people. That's what this book is about. Hugh: How long have you been engaged in the nonprofit arena with leaders and different kinds of organizations? Bob: I came to Dallas in 1984. I had just been involved as the director of development on the National Council of Alcoholism and learned all about this word called “fundraising” and philanthropy. Found out that the two of them are together as one word and one meaning, and they are also separate things. Some people get them mixed up. They think that fundraising is about money, but so is philanthropy. I have learned that philanthropy can be about money, but largely not. Instead, it's doing good things for others. That's how I got involved with this. I have been in Dallas for 38 years, and I have been working in raising money and now writing a book. I did a magazine called Philanthropy in Texas for a while. Every decade, I learned a little bit more about what that word means. Hugh: Bob, you and I are in our mid-70s, we'll say. We could be sitting back, chilling, and not doing anything. But you and I have a passion for being engaged. Why aren't you sitting around? You're teaching classes, and the stuff that you're asking your students is really profound. You're active with some local charities still. Why is this important to you? Bob: I don't know. I do it because I don't know what else to do. I do play tennis, and I do ride horses. Those are two of my hobbies. I do spend time doing those two things every week, so it's not like I'm constantly thinking about philanthropy, even though I have a horse named Philanthropy. I watch the USTA, and did you know the USTA is a nonprofit organization? They wouldn't survive if they didn't get contributions from people. They do good for others. I guess I'm involved with philanthropy pretty much all the time, even though it's my joy. I love doing it. I like talking about it. I like telling people about it. I like finding people who are doing different new things. I have found so many people over my 40 years that I decided to put them in a book. That's where Philanthropy Misunderstood came from. Hugh: I've had the joy of visiting a couple. The whole family does this water project. I won't get into it, but I want you to tell people. You called them up and said, “You have to meet Hugh.” I went over there, and it was an amazing visit with the whole family. I met the couple. I didn't meet the kids, but I have heard about them and their involvement. How about highlighting some of the stories? Let's talk about this one first; they will be guests on the show in June. It's folding paper. How does that help people? Bob: This is a crazy story, and it's a fabulous story. It's been so fabulous that it's been on Good Morning America. Neiman Marcus actually helped these girls sell these ornaments that are called origami that they make. Their church and schools make them with them. They have volunteers of hundreds of people who do nothing but help make origami, and they sell the origami for $50-$75 a piece. To date, they have raised over $2 million building water wells to actually give water around the world. 170 different water wells in 17 or 18 different countries. These girls are 15, 13, and 10 years old. They started it when they were 4, 5, and 6 because Daddy is part Japanese. He said, “We need to do some origami.” One thing led to the other. I'm not sure what the other is and how detailed you have to get in to find out what the thinking was of the parents, about involving their children in making these origami. That's their life. It is now their life. These girls are so smart because they are in a business. The 15-year-old is the president of the foundation. It's a cool thing. Hugh: I went to visit the whole house and the project. These volunteers come in to do the folding. It's engaged people in a focus. I don't know if the people come in and do that right now, but maybe the family can do more while the kids are out of school. There is another story in here that has a big picture, and it's Bonnie and Michael with Barefoot Winery. They were guests a couple months ago, and they were the ones who connected us. Tell the story about how you got connected and their story in the book. Bob: It's so interesting because Eric is actually the one who introduced me to Bonnie and Michael. He was the marketing director of Barefoot Wine. What Bonnie and Michael did, when they couldn't sell the wine, because nobody wanted to buy it because there was no place to buy it, and liquor stores didn't want to buy it because nobody was asking for it. They started giving it away to charities on the beach in beach towns, mainly starting in Florida. He would give it to them for free, and he said, “If you like it, go to your grocery stores and tell them to buy it.” Long story short, over 15 years, it became the #1 wine in America. Bonnie and Michael did it through giving wine away to charitable causes. I know that they had a marketing plan here. They said, “This is cause-related marketing,” which are words we used to use. They didn't really know it was philanthropy because they really wanted to sell wine. But it also made them feel good, too. I have taken Bonnie and Michael on a philanthropy trip to Mexico. So I got to watch them in action. It didn't have to do with wine; it had to do with building schools and painting houses for people in Mexico. It's a great story. They are in the book, and they should be. Hugh: The book is what you would call a coffee table book. It is hardbound. It's a $45 book. The quality of printing and the quality of the stories and an amazing layout and design. It should be $100. It's one of these treasures. My fourth book, which you have a copy of, Transforming Power, I teach people how to do things. I got to a point where I said, “Hmm, people want to be inspired by stories.” That's one of the premises behind this show is for people to tell their stories. There are people out there in the trenches who are struggling to make ends meet, to pull people together, to rally volunteers, to rally their boards, to rally their funders. Let's talk a bit about this title and what's behind it. What is the biggest misunderstanding on both sides, the funder and people seeking funding? Bob: It started with me. I was always told that philanthropy was about money. I started a magazine in Texas all about people who had money and gave it away. I would come into my staff and say, “I think we need to do Boone Pickens on the cover of the magazine. And the first question was, “How much money does he give away?” That was the common question. That was whether or not we were going to put him in the book on how much money they gave away. Finally, after a while, I realized, You know what? I know a lot of people who do so much more than writing a check. They're never recognized. I have this incredible woman from Houston named Carolyn Farb who spends 26 hours a day helping people learn how to raise money, but also build a hospital, and do all kinds of things. She is not known to be a huge giver, even though she is a giver; therefore, her picture would not be on the front cover of anything because of money. But it would be because of the word “philanthropy.” I realized, because of Carolyn, that I was talking to the wrong people. I needed to be talking to people who were in the book. The people in the book probably give money as well, but that wasn't what I wanted the focus on. I wanted them to tell me why they do what they do. Why do they build origami and build water wells around the world? They don't get any money for it, and they don't give any money. They give things. Well, they do give money because they raise money in their case. Bonnie and Michael, they give money, too. Instead, they gave wine. Chip Richey gives his time and effort and expertise in filmmaking. He's made lots of films about the Indians and Oklahoma. He did things for me for my philanthropy courses. There is Jordie Turk who was a student of mine, who volunteered on his own dime to come to Dallas and video my launch party. His name is not even on the piece. But he did it. He loved it. He is happy about it. I think that's what philanthropy does, moreso than what money does, is gives you joy. That's what everybody says. I get so much more out of what I did than what I gave. Hugh: Philanthropy is both. We have to run the organization. It's like having a car. You have to put gas in it. But there is a bigger piece to this. It's not money alone. Sometimes, people want to give money to save their conscience. They want to be doing something, and they're not really involved with it. So they want to buy a place. but buying a place and stepping up and working. Talk about the synergy of the two of those together. Bob: I'm a giver. But nobody would ever recognize me as a financial giver because I give $100 or $200 or $25 or $50 or whatever. I'm involved with a lot of organizations. I give not necessarily because I love the organization, but I love the person who is asking me. So I write a check in order to continue this relationship I have with this person as a friend or as a person who works with me. But when I actually take on a project and get my feet dirty and hands wet, and I go out and build something, or I paint, I come back tired, but for some reason, I give myself this secret pat on my shoulder and say, “You did good today, Bobby.” That's what happened to me when I was five years old. My mother and I went to give groceries in a trailer park in Garden City, Kansas. We walked away, and I felt this hand on my shoulder. It was patting my shoulder, and it said, “You did good today, Bobby.” I looked around, and there was nobody there. That is the feeling I have gotten because of giving my time and efforts, as opposed to writing a check to get you off my back to say, “Go. I put my name someplace.” They go, “Oh wow, $100. Thank you so much.” Then they come back the next year and do the same thing. There is just a real difference between the people who are in the trenches and the people who aren't. Hugh: I think it's important to give at any level. You say that you won't get recognized for $25 or $50. But if we get a lot of people who support us with their time, talent, and money—you give your time, talent, and money. There is a triage there that are all magnified by each other. If you have the synergy, if you have one person who gives $25, great. If you have 1,000 people who give $25, then you are paying salary and rent and some operating costs. Then you can rev up the engines and focus on your mission. I do find a lot of charities are compromised in many ways, but as you know, the story of SynerVision is we want to empower leaders to step up to the level that they can take the organization. I noticed some of your students are here from the class, and I want to talk about them as well. There is a synergy in those three. We spend time teaching leaders how to raise the bar on their performance so we know how to engage people who are philanthropic-minded. There is a whole lot of stuff there. Jeff, “Bob has given many of us the gift of learning to give, and it is life-changing.” What a quote that is. Talk about your students. I got to sit in on three classes last week. You're doing this Zoom group session education, which is quite remarkable. Your gracious spirit with them, and you see what's inside them, and you see potential that maybe some of them don't see in themselves. You said to me you challenged them to think about writing a eulogy, but you also mentioned doing some research on a nonprofit organization. There was a need for you to have to explain what that meant. What is a nonprofit organization? Talk a little bit about the class. Bob: I taught at a university here. I was teaching business and professional speaking. I decided I wanted to bring in my love and passion to the course. How am I going to bring my love and passion into the course when philanthropy is not in the syllabus? I included philanthropy in the syllabus. When you talk about business, you are going to talk about nonprofit businesses. They had never heard of a nonprofit business, even though they had. They knew what the Salvation Army and the Red Cross was. They knew what the Boys and Girls Club and Boy Scouts are. But they didn't know they were nonprofit organizations. They didn't know there were two million of them in the United States. They didn't know that half of the things that are positive about our country is philanthropy. I said, “Okay, let's have you all look at a nonprofit you are connected with.” They had no idea they were even connected with one. Landon is a new student this semester in my class right now. You asked him a question and asked him to talk when you were in my class. He did. He has a passion. You can feel it when he talks, about the things he does or can do and wants to do to serve people in our community. What I'm doing is there is maybe a small fire underneath them already, and I'm turning up the heat. They get passionate about it, and I empower them to do something about it once they learn about the fact that they can do it. They can do something on their own. Landon is one of those. He has several physical problems, and one of them is with his eyes. He picked a nonprofit organization that had to do with sight. He loves being involved with something he can connect with and understand. We all do. We all can. I am attention-deficit. There is a nonprofit organization and a school that has to do with children teaching children about dyslexia and Attention Deficit Disorders. There is something I can do. There is something everybody can do because we all have something that we are connected with, and we just didn't know it. Hugh: I was going to come in and say hello, and I stayed the whole class for two of them. We are recording this in the middle of being sequestered home. It's a time of refreshing, renewal, revising, and thinking about how when we go back to work, how we are going to define the new normal. We are leaders. We will reset the bar. I don't think we're going to go back to what we did before. Most of the people in the book didn't do things in ordinary ways; that's why they are in the book. These stories will inspire others not just to do the same old thing that they always had observed, but to think about what they bring to the table that's really special. What is the new opportunity? Bob, let's dig into some more of these stories. The book is divided into sections. Talk a little bit about why that is and why that's important. Bob: I had some great people working with me. Tom Dolphins from Kansas City designed the book. The book is so attractive that people want to find out what it is. It's not just the words, but it's the design. And Ann Vigola from Lawrence, Kansas started out as my editor. She happened to be a student of mine prior to that. Ann spent a lot of time figuring out how to organize this book because as being an attention-deficit person, I have all this information up here. I didn't know how to organize it. It was organized starting out with topics. We did One Day at a Time because I am a recovering alcoholic, and I wanted to talk a little bit about that topic. One Day at a Time also had to do with the AIDS epidemic. I had a brother who died of AIDS, and I wanted to focus on that. Every person in here has had something to do in my life. People would say, “You didn't do so-and-so. They are such a great person.” I said, “I know, but I didn't work with them.” All of these people, I worked with. All the stories in here, many of them, I had something to do with. Chip got me involved in the Phoenix Project, or maybe I got him involved, which was helping warriors coming home from war, connecting them with their spouses on retreats with horses and massages. Chip actually put together a video about this whole thing. I was involved with that. I went to the sweat lodges with these warriors and watched them connect and relate to each other. They are all stories I have been involved with in one way or another, and that's one story I like a lot. Jordie worked with me with the poorest of the poor kids in Mexico in Guanajuato, Mexico, Leon. We would go to the poorest school, and I would tell the teachers, “I want to take your kids for just an hour once a week and bring in 20 of my students. We will teach them philanthropy.” We watched children change because of a handshake. Jordie was able to volunteer his time, even though he was a student of mine, to put this fabulous piece together that is on YouTube. These are all stories we were able to capture. I wish I'd had these two men together with me for all of the stories because somebody's contacted me and said, “We need to make a movie here with these short stories.” Some of them still have long-lasting things. One of the people in Mexico said, “Just teaching a child to do a handshake and watch her change as a person week after week after week has changed me as a person,” she said. It does. When you do philanthropy, it changes you. Hugh: That's a great sound bite. Serving churches in music ministry for 40 years, I took many mission trips. We went to give them, but we came back having received a lot more than we tried to give away. There is a reciprocity to giving. You're a giver, but you're blessed by your giving. You're enriched by your giving. You give stuff away, but it really impacts you. When I am with you, you're just full of energy. You're this most passionate energized person purposeful person. What more about the book? Was there a story here delving into their story for the book, that really moved you more than any other story?   Bob: Yeah. We took a vote in our little group who put this book together, Ann, Tom, and I. There is one called “Bridging the Gap.” It is written by Morgan Herm. He is a schoolteacher. He talks about a bridge that is in Pennsylvania, where he lives. He would go and meditate there. On this bridge, he noticed that somebody had put in a letter between the planks. He opened the letter, and it was a letter that a person had written about them being able to become at peace with themselves because of meditating on this bridge. He put the letter back. Then there was a collection of letters that people would put in about how this bridge had brought them peace. It helped them through their divorce, or it helped them through their domestic violence. Morgan finally built a mailbox so people could put their letters in the mailbox. They could read each other's letters. That's philanthropy. That bridge serves as a philanthropic metaphor or example of peace and love. That's one of my favorites, and it's written so well because Morgan is an English teacher and writer. Hugh: Each contributor wrote their own story. Bob: They wrote their own stories. There was a couple of them that I wrote. There was a woman named Ruth Altschuter in Dallas who died last year. I wanted her in the book. So I went to her husband and said, “Would you write this for me?” He said, “No, I can't write anymore. I don't write.” I said, “Let me write Ruth's story, and you approve it.” He said okay. But most people wrote their own stories. One lady wrote a story that I told her should be 1,000 words. It was 5,000 words. I read it and realized I couldn't cut anything out. It's the history of Swiss Avenue, which is one of the oldest historic districts in the United States. She called it, “Philanthropy Built Her Neighborhood.” It's about how the mansions and big houses on Swiss Avenue became run-down in the ‘30s, ‘40s, and ‘50s. You could buy a piece of property here for $10 or 25,000, which are now going for $2 million, back in the old days. She wanted to tell the story about how it became a fabulous neighborhood that is looked upon as one of the premier places in the United States. It ended up being 10 pages, and I left the 5,000 words. It is the longest story. It wasn't meant to be that way, but it's really well done, so I didn't cut it out. Hugh: You said here. Is it in Dallas? Bob: Yes. I live in that district. I live in the Swiss Avenue historic district. Hugh: Wow, that's fascinating. Landon has a question. Landon, you're live, so if you have your mic on, do you want to talk to us? Landon Shepherd: My question is, let's say I have an idea for a nonprofit I would like to start. But I don't really know exactly how or where to start it, or who to talk to about getting started with what I want to do. What would be your advice to some of the students who may have these ideas, but don't know how to work out these ideas? Hugh: That question is for your professor? Landon: Either one of you guys. Hugh: We'll tag-team on it. Go ahead, Bob. Bob: He's a student of mine, and I will definitely have a talk about that. But we have in Dallas and in Fort Worth and every major city in the United States a center for nonprofit management. The centers for nonprofit management in each of the major cities are where people can go learn about giving and learn how to start an organization, a 501(c)3, the who, what, when, where, why. They have seminars all the time. You can go to the Community Foundation of Texas. You can go to the Dallas Foundation. These are other avenues of where people are experts in this. Yes, there is a way to do that. Landon, I will tell you who to contact here in Dallas. Hugh: There are centers like that in every city. There is also a universal presence called SynerVision Leadership Foundation. We have a blue button at the top of our page labeled, “Join.” We have this community with all kinds of resources. Sometimes, we find how to do strategy or how to do leadership or how to do fundraising or how to do a brand or marketing. We put it in one contiguous process so you don't have to look around. You can look at our site and see if that suits you. Combine working in person with one of these centers Bob is talking about. That would give you a leg up. Bob, I know half of the nonprofits started each year will close ultimately. My take on it is they haven't done a good job of looking at the market to make sure it's not being duplicated, and they haven't really activated their board and set themselves up for success. What is your idea of why some of those close? Bob: You're right. They usually are started by people who don't have any information. They have a passion, which you have to have for the topic. People who have cancer, they want to start a nonprofit organization that has to do with cancer and raise money in the name of somebody. The Susan G. Komen Foundation was started by Nancy Brinker here in Dallas because her sister Susan G. Komen had breast cancer. She told her before she died, “I am going to find you a cure for this.” What Nancy did was she surrounded herself with experts who knew how to put together a nonprofit. Now, it is the best one in the world. I can tell you five or six right off the top of my head that didn't last for more than a year because they didn't have a board of directors, they didn't know how to do their paperwork, they started raising money without knowing how to be a fundraiser. Let me tell Landon and everybody this. There is an association called the Association of Fundraising Professionals (AFP) in the United States. 35,000 professional fundraising people. I was a member of this group for most of my years as the president here in Dallas, and went to all the major conferences. There are conferences every year with AFP. There is a luncheon in most major cities every month that bring together all the people who raise money for the nonprofits in any city. There is a program with a speaker. It is a time to network, the people who have been there and done it before. That's how you do it. Hugh: Building a network around you. There is a peer-to-peer network, which is great, but you want to have a network of people who are even better than you. In my case, it's not hard to do. But hang around people who have been there, done that, and are experts. We have Jeffrey Fulgham watching who has a question. I want to allow you to talk. Jeffrey has been a member of that and is a certified fundraiser. Why is it important for you? You went through the certification process and studied development for so many years. Do you want to comment on the organization and why it's so important for people to understand now? Jeffrey Fulgham: I have always looked at it as a cliché of the good housekeeping seal of approval. I think this gets more important every day. This needs to be a profession, and it needs to be professional, not just in fundraisers but in nonprofits. There has to be some standard. We hope it's a standard of excellence, but there has to be some standard by which people can look and say, “Okay, this is an organization, or an individual, who is committed to certain principles, certain basic values, that transcend whatever it is that that organization is involved in.” Obviously, there are certain organizations whose values are going to be different than another one. But those values are related to the mission, not the operating strategy or the integrity of the entity or the integrity of the individuals working within it. What it allows us to do is create that standard. When someone looks at an organization, they have Guidestar to go to and the other metric organizations. But they also have a way to look and say, “Hey, this is what these organizations support. These are the values they support. This organization belongs to them and subscribes to these values. They subscribe to certain values. They set the standard.” Of course, the CFRE sets the standard as well. I think it's important for people who are giving, but also for people who want to get involved as volunteers, who want to go work somewhere. Do you want to work for an organization who subscribes to certain values and has that level of integrity? That's the main reason why I think it's all important. Hugh: Great. Before I let you go back into your listening mode, do you have a question for our guest today about philanthropy or about his book? Jeffrey: You know, that's the first time I've heard of this book. I'm definitely going to have to get a copy of it. I think it's really interesting that you mentioned that philanthropy is not necessarily about money. I always tell people that fundraising is not about money; it usually ends in money, but it's about relationships and about creating relationships that are long-lasting. Those relationships should transcend the money in that just because in a bad year, and we're having one by the way, where people are not going to make gifts to organizations they care about because they have to take care of their families and their friends. They will give more money to their church. They will make hard decisions about who they are giving to. If that person doesn't make a gift to my organization but they have been supporting me for 20 years, do I abandon them and ignore them because they are not giving money through our fundraising? No. Because I have a relationship with them that transcends their financial giving, or possibly their volunteerism. It becomes a different thing. Philanthropy is definitely a mindset beyond money, and I love that you are bringing that to the surface so people can understand what it's about. Hugh: I'm glad you asked me where to get the book. There is a website called PhilanthropyMisunderstood.org. You can find out how to get the book there. Bob: Thank you, Jeffrey. I want to know more about you as well. I am a member of AFP and of CFRE as well. There are a couple of people in the book who are CFRE, Scott Staub and Alfonse Brown. They have great stories in there not about fundraising. As you say, it was about relationship-building and the volunteerism they participated in as well. Hugh: Not everybody wrote a story in there. There is a story about a horse. Who wrote that? Bob: I wrote that one. It's my best story. I wanted Philanthropy to be on my front cover, and Philanthropy happens to be my horse. This woman by the name of Tracy Carruth, who is a big philanthropist in Dallas, breeds horses. I happen to have an Arabian horse. She breeds Arabian horses. Napatoff, who is her most beautiful world champion horse, was retiring. Before he died, or left the breeding ring, she wanted to make sure that I got an offspring from Napatoff. She gave me the semen from Napatoff to go into Sherry Rochesta, who was my Arabian. Through that, we got a beautiful horse that I named Philanthropy. I wanted to start that as my first story. My editor didn't like it, so we put it into the back. I am there with Tracy Carruth and our horses. That's the story. Hugh: The standards for everything, the quality of the writing and the photographs, the design of the book, all of these sections in the book. You start out with Circle of Influence. Jeffrey headed us that way. It's not about money; it's about relationship. When you and I had lunch recently, we talked about relationship. You now have a relationship with all these people, and they wanted to be in your book. Why is relationship important to our work? Relationship in our teaching at SynerVision, it's the underpinning of leadership and ministry, and it's the support for communications. Funding and philanthropy happens as a result of relationship. Say a little more about relationship and how it's important. Bob: Debbie Mrazek, who is one of the writers, wrote a part in the book called “Your Circle of Influence.” Who are all those people who will take care of you, who will take you to the airport and lend you sugar and tell you where to get the plumber? I had my students write down 100 people they know, wheedle it down to 25, and then 15 who will be in their circle of influence. I teach networking. It's not what you know; it's who you know. That's the first thing and last thing I say in my classes. My students, I say, “How many people do you know?” They didn't know 100 people. One of them knew seven. My family members. No, I don't want to meet anybody. No, I don't need people. I said to the class, “I'm going to take students to Nepal. It will cost $1,500. How many of you can raise the money to make it happen?” I went to this girl who said she knew seven people, and she didn't want to know any more people. She said, “I don't know anybody. I don't want to know anybody. I guess I'm not going to Nepal.” I said, “I guess you're not.” We took people to Nepal because my students most of the time realize that they have a great number of people around them who care about them, but there is a methodology of how to influence people and how to cultivate people and how to get them to be your friends, and more than friends, how to be a good friend, how to help people, and actually go around hunting for things to do for people. That's what I want my students to become. I don't think that we get anywhere in life without others. That's one of the key principles that I teach in my communication classes. Hugh: Your class that I sat in on is really about communications. You're really promoting good thinking skills. Communication to me is based on relationship. We can send a whole bunch of emails that nobody reads. It's not about data. Bob: No. I send emails, and I pick up the phone. We used to send faxes. We used to go knock on their door. We used to drive by. I think that this time right now, we're trying to figure out how to continue life in solitude since we are told to stay home, and stay home alone. I think we're finding this television and this computer even more important than ever since this is how we're able to stay in touch, through this cell phone we love so much and this computer. However, I can go next door and knock on the door and take them a cake and say, “I was thinking of you and realize you may not have any desserts at your house today.” Sometimes, I'll have my lawnmower man come out and next door, they don't mow their lawn very much. “Go mow their lawn. I'll pay you.” The people come home and say, “I can't believe you had somebody mow my lawn.” It was a philanthropic idea I had, was to love mankind and do something for the person next door. Hugh: Bob is an inspiration. My ideas are popping. You have 100 creative ideas every six seconds. You're prolific. In these stories, 100+ stories from people who helped change the world. We are all doing our part. It's not one person. But one person can start a movement. My friend in Lynchburg, he was the person who founded Stop Hunger Now, which is now Rise Against Hunger. Before we had a setback with coronavirus, they were on target to package 750 million meals. Their vision is to end hunger in our lifetime. It's not just about packaging the meals; it's about a lot more than that. One person thought of that and founded it, and it's now a major movement that will exist long past his lifetime, which is what he wanted. It's a legacy. What are the legacy possibilities for any of us who say, “I want to do something for humankind and have it keep going?” Are there possibilities for all of us? Bob: I always say, “What are you doing for the person who just passed away in your life? What will you do for your mother? What will you do for your father?” I got involved with building schools in Nepal with Don Wilkes. Let me tell you about Don Lueke since he is here. Don Lueke is from Kansas City; he and I met probably 30 years ago because he taught children at his school about giving. It's the Junior Leadership. It's similar to my PAVE program (Philanthropy and Volunteers Education). For the last 15-20 years, he and a man by the name of Steve O'Neill, who are businesspeople in Kansas City, take time out of their week every week to teach children at the Catholic school where their children go about giving back. This has become so sophisticated that this last year, I was a part of a seminar they had at the University of Missouri in Kansas City, where all of his students, maybe 30 or 40 of them, came and gave presentations on nonprofit organizations they had helped in the community. He does similar things to me: empower young people to get involved in the community. There is a double page about him and this group he is doing it with. Don Wilkes in Nepal for example. What can you do to honor somebody? He said, “If you can make a contribution of a couple thousand dollars, we will put someone's name on a classroom in a school we are building in Nepal.” I called my brother and sister and said, “For $2,000, we can put our mother's name on a classroom in Nepal.” My brother says, “I want to see a video of what it looks like.” I sent him the video, and he called me back immediately and said, “Let's do it.” My sister said, “Sight unseen, let's do it. We want to honor our mother.” For $2,000, our mother's name is on a school's room in Nepal. I know because I went to Nepal to see it. I had to go see my mother's name. When I got out of the car, and the children were clapping for me because I was amongst them, because I gave a simple $2,000 and put my mother's name on the deal, gave me such joy that we decided to do it again. I put my cousin's name and my aunt's name in another classroom on another school they are building in Nepal. That is a way you can provide not necessarily for yourself, but for somebody else that meant a lot in this society. Everybody we run around with meant a lot in this society. They did something in their lives that changed the world. Hugh: Absolutely. That's an inspiration. Are you willing to entertain questions if I open everybody's mic? Bob: Absolutely. Eric Groover: Bob, this is Eric Groover from the University of North Texas. How are you doing, Bob? Bob: Hi, Eric. It's good to see you again. Eric: Hugh, I just want to say thank you for hosting Bob. Bob and I are new acquaintances through some of our students at the Texas Academy of Mathematics and Science here at the University of North Texas in Denton. Just north of the DFW metroplex. Bob was actually scheduled to come speak to some students on our campus last week, and unfortunately we had to cancel that. Bob was gracious enough to bring up some of the books that we purchased for our students and faculty and staff. We spent a few minutes violating the university's shelter-in-place order, visiting in my office for 20-30 minutes. I just wanted to say, Bob, that it's been lovely watching you today and hearing your stories again. Just a huge thank-you to Hugh for hosting this event. He does you credit, and I'm glad for that. Thank you very much. Hugh: Thank you, Eric. Blessings. Nancy Hopkins: This is Nancy Carol Hopkins. Yes, I am Bob's sister. I am watching from Tucson, Arizona. Obviously, Bob has been an influence in a lot of people's lives, including mine and our younger brother. I wanted to make a comment on the volunteerism point. First of all, Bob gets asked frequently how come he stays so young and is so active at his age and has so much energy. If you look up and do some research on volunteerism, there is a lot of research that shows that volunteerism actually helps you medically, emotionally, physically, keeps you young literally. It does. There is medical research to prove that. If anybody wants to know how Bob stays so young and energetic, it has nothing to do with vitamins and pills he is taking. It has everything to do with the work that he does. Hugh: Very helpful, Nancy. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for sharing that. Nancy: You're welcome. Hugh: You don't have to take tonic if you hang around Bob Hopkins. Nancy: That's right. You don't. Hugh: That's so rich. By the way, our governor slapped a stay-at-home order on us until June 10. The exception is volunteerism. If you volunteer for a charity, you can get out and do it. That was a good thing, I thought. Penny Rambacker: Hi, this is Penny Rambacker. How are you doing, Bob? Bob: They said Penny. I was hoping it was you. Penny: I'd like to make another comment about the idea of having purpose. I think Bob has a purpose, as many of us philanthropists have. I have been reading a book recently that said two of the things you can do to be the happiest in life are 1) to have a purpose and to feel needed, and that keeps you young and alive, and 2) is to be grateful. Those of us that practice gratitude and appreciate what we have are oftentimes people who are giving because they have seen other people with greater needs than their own. They become grateful for all of the things they have in their life. I had a huge gratitude lesson back when I first got into this. That was when I visited the garbage dump in Guatemala City. I saw children living there. It really touched my heart, and I had to do something about it. I found my purpose, and I felt grateful for the life I have. Two good things to think about when you are doing philanthropy. Yep, that's me and my kids. Hugh: What page is that on, Bob? Bob: Pages 48-49. Hugh: Love it. Great stories. Penny, where are you? Penny: I am in Naples, Florida. We work in Guatemala. My charity has built 57 schools in the mountains of Guatemala. We also sell handicrafts. We just sent an e-newsletter telling people to visit our store online. It's virus-free. You can go shopping for a greater good. If you want to go shopping, we have great things at Store.MiraclesInAction.org. Hugh: Good for you. I have been to Guatemala, and people are very poor. They have lots of wonderful natural resources. They do wonderful clothes with all these designs that are brilliant. What are you showing, Bob? Bob: This is Don Lueke's page. He is on pages 82-83. Hugh: Don, do you want to comment? Don Lueke: This is a great opportunity to showcase your work, Bob, and the work of everybody in that book. I appreciate the efforts on your part. Just want to add. We talk about having a purpose. I think that is what makes us get up every day, or at least get up quicker. I don't know if I have a lot more to add. I'm humbled by everybody's story in the book, so I think I am just one of many. Hugh: Thank you for sharing. I am humbled being part of Bob's network. *Sponsor message from Wordsprint* Bob, what is a parting thought you'd like to leave people with today? Bob: I am going to do another book called Philanthropy Understood. It's going to be new people. Some of the old people we want to expand upon, too. I'd like to do something with TAMS. I think TAMS is a great program that Eric Groover has been a part of before. There are so many people that I have been thinking about. That's what I'm doing right now, and that's why so many people are here who are in the book because I sent them a memo telling them all that we are needing to stay together on a monthly basis. We did have a man pass away yesterday in the book, Charles Lowe. He has spent 45 years working with the disease called neurofibromatosis, and I worked for them for eight years. I was able to tell all of the people in the book about his passing. So many people responded who didn't even know Charles, but did know his article in the book. I think the more we create this circle of influence around ourselves, the richer our lives are going to be. Also, the kinds of people we depend upon, I always try to find people who are smarter than you who have more things going on for them because they will lift me up instead of running around with people who will pull me down. My challenge to everyone is to continue these kinds of groups, and continue doing good together. That is the real fun about philanthropy and being volunteers. It's a togetherness thing. I did go with Penny to Guatemala, and I loved the experience. She is in the book. I went with her 20 years ago. I included her in the book because that experience changed my life 20 years ago. It's one of those many things that make up a person. It's so much fun going back in my history, in my family. My sister is the greatest philanthropist of our family. She is doing more than me even. I think that's the joy. I don't even say it's happy anymore; it's a joy to walk out on my front porch and say, “God, take me. What is my next step? What do I have to do next?” You know what. Somebody picks me up and takes me. I think that's the lesson I have learned more than anything: you have to be willing and tell people. Hugh: Bob Hopkins, you are a gift to humankind. Thank you so much for being our guest today. Bob: Thank you. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Wisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 1) - John WoodenWisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 2) - John WoodenWisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 3) - John WoodenFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Growing Up With WoodenDay 1 of 3 Guest:                    John Wooden From the series:   True Success:  A Personal Visit with John Wooden  Bob:                It was the 1920s in rural Indiana.  The Depression had not yet rocked America.  John Wooden was a young boy growing up on a farm, a high school student who loved basketball but who was about to meet the real love of his life. John:              I noticed this one little gal, and I didn't know, but she had noticed me, too, but I didn't know that.  Somehow, on the first day of classes my freshman year, we happened to be in the same class, and I knew right then, and we knew we were going to be married by the time I got out of high school, and August 8th it would have been 70 years since last August 8th, we would have been married. Bob:                Today you'll hear the first part of a conversation with a man who grew up to be one of the greatest coaches of all time as we talk about his faith, his family, and basketball.  Stay tuned as we talk with Coach John Wooden on FamilyLife Today.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition.  I can't help but smile as I listen to that excerpt from our interview with Coach John Wooden.  Of course, a lot of people are smiling right about now because this is the time of the year when March madness really takes over.  There is a lot of basketball ahead for us. Dennis:          Semis are this weekend, Final Four on Monday. Bob:                It's got to bring back lots of memories for you from your college days, doesn't it? Dennis:          Well, high school.  You know, going back to high school, Bob, those were my glory days.  My college days, I had several splinters. Bob:                Sitting on the bench, huh? Dennis:          I got the 15th uniform out of 15 in college.  I learned what it was like to be a substitute. Bob:                But your team almost went to the Final Four, didn't it? Dennis:          Well, not THE Final Four.  We almost went to the Junior College National Championships in Kansas, and I'm trying to remember where in Kansas. Bob:                But that's like the Final Four for Junior Colleges, right? Dennis:          Oh, yeah, absolutely.  In fact, I started that game – the last game of my college career, I started. Bob:                You poured in what – 15, 20 points? Dennis:          Now, wait a second – hold it, just one second, because they put me on an All American.  This is a true story.  The coach had watched me.  It was the only game I started in my college career, but my coach was so impressed with me never quitting and just staying out there and being tenacious – he started me.  And he put me on the quickest guy I've ever played against. Bob:                Man-to-man defense. Dennis:          Man-to-man defense, and did you know, when I left the game in the first half – I played about six or seven minutes – I had scored more points … Bob:                … than the All American, and the reason was this:  He was so fast and I was so slow, he would fake three or four times, and by the time I had taken his first fake, I was back to where he was really going.  And so I would post up underneath the bucket, and the guy didn't like to play defense, and I'd post up on him and score.  And so when I left the game, I had actually scored more points than him. Bob:                Now, some of our listeners are wondering what are you talking about Dennis' glory days of basketball on FamilyLife Today? Dennis:          Because we really don't have anything else to talk about.  No, that's not true.  We have a guest today – well, Bob, a dream of mine, and I sent you a note one day.  I said, "Bob, you know, one of the people I would really like in all the world to interview for FamilyLife Today and for our listeners and give them a glimpse of what a great human being he is, what many have described as the greatest coach of any sport of all time – Coach John Wooden."  Now, there are a number of our listeners who have no idea who John Wooden is, but a ton do.  Bob:                Coach Wooden coached the UCLA Bruins back in the '60s and the '70s. Dennis:          Well, actually, he started coaching in 1948.  That's what most people don't realize is.  He didn't build that national championship dominant team in the '60s and '70s.  He built it in obscurity beginning in 1948 throughout all the '50s and early '60s before he won his first national championship in 1964. Bob:                And after he won his first one, then he won his second and his third and his fourth and his fifth and his sixth.  Over a 12-year period he won 10 national championships. Dennis:          That's right, including winning 88 games in a row before they were knocked off at the Houston Astrodome, and I remember watching this game as a young man, where Lew Alcindor was playing against Elvin Hayes, and Houston beat them 71-69, and the Astrodome had, like, 49,000 people in it.  It was nationally televised.  It was an event, and there are few coaches that could claim the accomplishments that – in any sport – what he has accomplished.  But in basketball, he is the ultimate. Bob:                Well, we're going to hear a little bit about that game and about a lot of other games as we talk with Coach Wooden over the next few days.  A while back, you and I sat down with him in a studio in Los Angeles and just had a great opportunity to find out about the man who grew up to be "The Coach."  Here is part 1 of our conversation with Coach John Wooden: Dennis:          Tell us about life in the Wooden household when you were growing up as a young lad. John:              We had a small farm, and I learned a lot, I think, of things that helped me later on.  You had to work hard.  Dad felt there was time for play but always after the chores and the studies were done.  Dad would read to us every night from the Scriptures and poetry, and I think that created a love of poetry, which I've always had, liked to dabble in it a little bit.  My dad was a wonderful person.  I never heard him speak an ill word of anybody; never blamed anybody for anything; I never heard him use a word of profanity.  I think that his reading to us of a night later caused all four sons to get through college, though he had no financial means to help and there were no athletic scholarships.  All four sons graduated from college and all majored or minored in English, and all got advanced degrees, and I think Dad had a lot to do with that. Dennis:          Your dad had, as you've already mentioned, a profound impact on your life.  In fact, I was so looking forward to this interview with you, because I've quoted you about something that you said you carried around in your pocket.  Or – it, first of all, was carried around in your father's pocket, is that right?  And then you started carrying it around – it was your dad's creed – and then a poem by a pastor by the name of Henry Van Dyke. John:              My father gave to me, when I graduated from high school – excuse me – from grade school, from the eighth grade, he gave me a $2 bill – one of those large $2 bills and said, "Son, as long as you keep this you'll never be broke."  Then he also gave me a card, and on one side was the verse by Reverend Van Dyke that said, "Four things a man must learn to do if he would make his life more true; to think without confusion clearly; to love his fellow man sincerely; to act from honest motives purely; to trust in God and heaven securely." And on the other side was a seven-point creed, and the seven-point creed insisted, first of all, I think it was, "Be true to yourself," and I think we know if we're true to ourselves, we'll be true to others; and the second was "Help others."  There is no greater joy than a person can have than do something for someone else, especially when you do it with no thought of something in return. Another one was "Make friendship a fine art."  Work at it, don't take it for granted, work at making friends and making friendships flourish.  And then was one, I think, stood out to me a great deal was, "Make me today your masterpiece," and I tried to teach from that, as time went by, to my players and my English students, to just try and do the best you can each day.  Just make each day a masterpiece.  It's the only thing over which you have control.  You have no control over yesterday.  That will never change.  The only way you can affect tomorrow is today.  And then another one was to "Drink deeply from good books, especially the Bible;" and then was "Build a shelter against a rainy day," and he wasn't thinking about a physical shelter, he was thinking about a more lasting shelter.  When I think about that, I often think of when Socrates was unjustly imprisoned and was facing imminent death and the jailers who were mean people, they couldn't understand his serenity, and they said, "Why aren't you preparing for death?"  And his statement was, "I've been preparing for death all my life by the life I've led," and when I think of building a shelter against a rainy day, I think that's what Dad had in mind. Then the last was – the seventh was "Give thanks for your blessings and pray for guidance every day," and I've carried that with me in one form or another since those days, yes. Bob:                Those core convictions are so bedrock with you, that's a part of how your mom and dad raised you.  I think some people – we hear those things in the 21st century and some people go, "That sounds kind of old-fashioned, kind of corny," but that's so ingrained into who you are and who you've been, and you would say that's been a part of what has made you successful as a coach, right? John:              Well, I would hope so, but I know, too, if someone said, "I'm not what I ought to be and not what I want to be and not what I'm going to be, but I think those things have made me better than I would have been. Dennis:          Your dad read the Bible every day. John:              Yes, he did. Dennis:          How did you see him live out his faith in Christ every day, as a father?  What are the most indelible memories that you have, as a boy, watching your dad?  Because, undoubtedly, for him to have the influence he had on you as a man, his character has to resonate even today in your life. John:              Perhaps I wasn't realizing it at the time, but as I look back on my dad and the fact that he never spoke an ill word of anyone and just was a good person.  You don't realize it so much of the time, and many of the things – one of the things he said was never try to be better than someone else.  You have no control over that, and if you get too involved and engrossed and concerned – maybe these weren't his exact words, but things over which you have no control will adversely affect the things over which you have control.                         Now, years later, I remember that.  So somewhere in the hidden recesses of the mind, they stuck there, but it was things like that.  Mr. Lincoln said there is nothing stronger than gentleness, and my father was gentle man – working with animals and things.  I remember reading to us nights over the Scriptures, and I can still close my eyes and hear him reading "Hiawatha."  I can still hear "By the shores of Gitchigoomie, by the Shining Big Sea Water, Stood the wigwam of Nokomis," and so on, and things of that sort. Bob:                You didn't have any TV, any radio, so in the evening reading was the primary form of entertainment, wasn't it? John:              You're correct – by a coal oil lamp or candles. Bob:                Was your dad – as you think back on his life, you've talked about this tender side of him, and yet he was still whipping you when you did the wrong thing.  Was he a strict disciplinarian? John:              Well, I would say yes but not in a physical point of way.  I know – oh, I didn't want to get an unkind word from my dad, you know, a strong word.  I don't know, you just hated to hurt him in any way.  You just had that feeling about him. Dennis:          As you followed your dad, you undoubtedly watched how he'd love your mother.  Tell us about what you observed there and his commitment to her, as a woman and to his wife, over their years together. John:              Well, I think Dad's first concern was always for Mother.  He was looking out for her the best he could in every way but in a gentle way, in a gentle way.  I can picture them together – not at all the romantic way that you might think, but there was just something between them that was very, very special.  I don't know how to describe it. Dennis:          You said of yourself in your book, "They Call Me Coach," that as you moved into your high school years, you were shy, you were reserved, especially with the opposite sex. John:              Yes, I suppose, not being exposed much – no sisters – and I'm on the farm, and I suppose that's the reason, I don't know, but I was a little shy. Bob:                But here you were, this star basketball player on the high school team.  I mean, the girls, the cheerleaders, had to notice Johnny Wooden, didn't they?  Did they call you Johnny back then or was it John? John:              They called me lots of things. (laughter)                          You'd be surprised, the more they think it was John Bob. Bob:                John Bob. Dennis:          John Bob. John:              And Nellie and I had been married for many years when her sister came out here to California one time, and she said, "Don't you think you and John have been married long enough that you should quit calling him John Bob?" Bob:                But didn't the girls start to notice you as you were draining those jump shots on the basketball teams? Dennis:          Yeah, he kind of skirted your answer there.  I was watching him about that. John:              Well, I'll tell you, my freshman year, I was still living on the farm.  We didn't lose the farm until after my freshman year, and then we commuted from this little town of Center, and we lived about a half a mile out of that to Martinsville, and I noticed this one little gal, and I didn't know that she had noticed me, too, but I didn't know that, and that summer she brought the brother of her closest friend, who became very dear to me, to drive up.  Her brother had a car, and they drove up, and I was working in the field plowing corn with a team, and they parked in the road and motioned for me to come over, and I wouldn't go over.  I just kept on. Bob:                Why wouldn't you go over?  Here's this cute girl on the side of the road … Dennis:          … and you even liked her, too. John:              Oh, yeah, but I was dirty and somehow on the first day of classes, we happened to be in the same class.  She said, "Why didn't you come over to see us?"  I said, "Well, I was dirty and perspiring, and you would have just made fun of me."  And Nellie said – I can still see her, she said, "I would never make fun of you," and I knew right then … Dennis:          … there was a spark in her eyes. John:              And this is the only girl I ever really went with. Bob:                So by your junior year in high school, did you think, "This is the girl I'll marry?" John:              I did. Bob:                And you all started going together? John:              We did. Bob:                So you waited to marry until you got to college? John:              Yes, until I graduated.  I was glad to be married and graduated and got my first job, yes. Bob:                Coach, that's a long courtship – from your junior year in high school until you've graduated from college and got your first job.  That must have been hard. Dennis:          But, Bob, the rest of the story is, if Nellie hadn't put her foot down … Bob:                … he might still be dragging it on today? Dennis:          Well, there is the rest of the story here, because he really had promised her that he was going to marry her upon graduation, but then the war came along. John:              Yes.  Well, I had an appointment to West Point, and she said it would be six more years, and "I'm not going to wait.  I'm going to a convent."  So I didn't go to West Point. Bob:                She said she wouldn't wait on you? John:              That's right. Dennis:          And so what did you do? John:              Well, I finished at Purdue.  Dennis:          So you were married then? John:              We were married on August 8th.  It would have been 70 years just last August 8th that we would have been married.  We were married on August 8, 1932. Dennis:          You were, in those days, All American three years in a row, you were named the College Player of the Year your senior year, and as I was doing this research, I was thinking – I was talking to Bob.  I said, "I don't remember Coach Wooden being that tall, to be College Player of the Year.  He must have been 6'3" or 6'4".  On the sidelines you looked a little small around those big guys at UCLA.  But you were only 5'10" in those days. John:              But, you know, the teams weren't as big then, either, as they are now, too.  Our center at Purdue, Stretch Murphy, was 6'8", and he was a giant.  I only had the pleasure of playing with him one year.  I had the displeasure of playing against him one year when I was a sophomore in high school for the Indiana State Championship, he was the center on the opposing team, and he was good. Bob:                Did you just have what it takes as an athlete?  Were you just a naturally gifted – something about the way God made you that you turned out to be a good basketball player?  Or did you work really hard to be a good ball player? John:              Well, I hope I did the latter, but He provided the former.  I had natural quickness, and I couldn't do much about my height, but I could do something about my condition, and I always wanted to be in the best possible condition and hoped that would be better than others, hoped others wouldn't work as hard at it as I did do that, and I think I carried that throughout, and I think that helped.  And I think it probably come from my earlier grade school days on the farm of working hard, and I like to feel that no one is going to be in better condition, then I have no control over it.  I should have control over myself. Bob:                Well, we've been listening to a conversation with Coach John Wooden – actually, part 1 of a conversation that we're going to hear the remainder of over the next couple of days. Dennis:          What a sweet time, huh? Bob:                It was a great time. Dennis:          Bob, you and I just had a great time.  I'd look over at you occasionally, and you'd be sitting there grinning, and I'd be grinning, and the reason is, is when we interviewed Coach, he was 91 years old.  He's now at his 92nd birthday, and I'm told that he knows where 180 of his players are – his past players.  He's kept in touch with them.  I heard about a coach the other day whose players never go back to visit him – none of them.  It's common knowledge that his players don't want to have anything to do with him, and I think about Coach Wooden and the wisdom that he passed on, and it reminds me, really, of Proverbs, chapter 4, where a father is imploring and exhorting a son to "Listen, my son, and acquire wisdom."   And I'll tell you, just hanging with the Coach for the interview we did over an hour and a half, we're not going to be able to air all of it here on the broadcast over the next couple of days, but just hanging with him, you thought, "What would it have been like to have played for a coach like that?"  And then it hit me, you know, that's what our children need to be expressing about us as parents.  You know, we learned, we sat under the greatest mom, the greatest dad, the greatest coach, the greatest teacher the world has ever known.  Yeah, they're going to be biased, but the idea is that we, as parents, we're impacting the next generation just like Coach Wooden did. Bob:                That's right.  You mentioned the entire interview going more than an hour and a half long.  We've actually taken the complete interview and put it on two CDs, and I got some early copies of these CDs, and I'll tell you what I found – you can pass these out to lots of folks.  You can pass them out to the high school coach at the high school where your kids go. Dennis:          Oh, let me tell you something, I've been doing this, and I've had friends doing this – any coach of any sport – Laura's volleyball coach – I gave her a copy of this, and she grabbed hold of it like it was gold, and the reason is it is gold.  Bob:                It's thoughts on life from a great coach but it's also thoughts on faith and character and what really matters.  You can use this as a way to begin a dialog and to open doors evangelistically with fans of the game, with coaches, with players, with friends.  We have the two-CD set that features the entire – I think it's about an hour-and-45-minute-long conversation with Coach John Wooden.                          It's available in our FamilyLife Resource Center.  You can call 1-800-FLTODAY to request as many copies as you want. Dennis:          It even looks like a basketball on one side and a net on the other. Bob:                1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.  You can also order online at FamilyLife.com.  Ask for the two-CD set of our conversation with Coach John Wooden when you contact us, and there's a second resource we want to mention to you as well – Coach Wooden has put together a course that is designed to teach his principles of success in business, in athletics, in school.  We have a videocassette where Coach lays out the Pyramid of Success that he put together, and we have the Pyramid on our website at FamilyLife.com, but we also have it on a mousepad that you can have by your computer just to review the character qualities that go into success in any endeavor.  Along with the video and the mousepad, we've got a wallet card. Dennis:          Not just any wallet card. Bob:                No, it's a laminated … Dennis:          … a laminated … Bob:                … that's right, and it has some of the Coach's philosophy on it – never lie, never cheat, never steal, don't whine, don't complain, don't make excuses – pretty simple stuff but profound nonetheless.                           Ask for these resources when you call 1-800-FLTODAY.  Again, it's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY or go online at FamilyLife.com, and you can see some of the resources there, and you can order online as well.  Again, our website is FamilyLife.com.                          When you do get in touch with us, someone is likely to ask if you'd like to help with a donation to FamilyLife Today, and we hope when they ask, if you are able, you'll say yes and be able to add a donation to the work of this ministry.  We're a nonprofit organization, and we depend on those contributions to keep doing what we're doing.  So if you can't help with a donation, you can donate online at FamilyLife.com.  You can call 1-800-FLTODAY or you can write a check and mail it to us at FamilyLife Today, Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas.  The zip code is 72221.  Once again, it's FamilyLife Today at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas, and our zip code is 72221.                          Well, tomorrow we're going to find out how the UCLA dynasty almost never happened and how it might have been the Minnesota dynasty if it hadn't been for a snowstorm. Dennis:          Yeah, this is a great story about lost opportunity. Bob:                We'll hear that tomorrow as we continue our conversation with Coach John Wooden.  I hope you can be with us for that.                           I want to thank our engineer today, Robbie Neal [sp], and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.                          FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.    We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com 

Rebuilding a Marriage Better Than New (Part 1) - Chris and Cindy BeallRebuilding a Marriage Better Than New (Part 2) - Chris and Cindy BeallRebuilding a Marriage Better Than New (Part 3) - Chris and Cindy BeallFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Embracing Hope Guest:                        Chris and Cindy Beall                                 From the series:       Rebuilding a Marriage Better Than New                   Bob: Rebuilding a broken marriage is not a simple process; it's not a painless process. But Chris Beall—who is doing it—says it is a worthwhile process to go through. Chris: You're walking through a betrayal—you don't know the where to go. The best thing you can do for other people is not tell a story but live a story. It's not time for you to focus on helping other people. Every day you're going to choose to forgive the other person, you are writing a sentence in a paragraph of a story that years from now will be worth telling—and we do that by submitting to God at every moment of this process of healing. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, August 30th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. If there has been damage done to your marriage, there is a path forward—and it's a path worth walking. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us.  I sent out a tweet a while back and I got a response to it. I'm thinking maybe our guests could help—knowing how I should respond to the response. The tweet I sent out said—it was from when Gary Thomas was here and we were talking about cherishing and what it means to cherish one another in marriage. I said, “Cherishing another person means I'm going to look out for your interests as more important than my own.”  The tweet I got back was from somebody who said, “How do you get there with a lying, betraying husband who has no idea what passion or intimacy is?” I don't know how to answer that in 140 characters—I don't think you can answer that in 140 characters—but it's a very real issue for a lot of people thinking, “How do I fulfill my vows? How do I love and trust and cherish another person when they are a lying, betraying individual?” 2:00 Dennis: That really is a good question—and I'm glad we have the guests that we have on FamilyLife Today.  Bob: So we're off the hook!  Dennis: Chris— Bob: So, we'll let them answer it! Dennis: Chris and Cindy Beall join us again on the broadcast. Welcome back. Chris and Cindy: Thank you! Dennis: Chris is a pastor at Life Church in Oklahoma City. Cindy is an author of a book called, Rebuilding a Marriage Better Than New—and Cindy, you're the expert on this because this is what you've done.  Cindy: One of the things that people often say is, “Well, I'm going to do this to them because they are doing this to me”—so through revenge they are getting back at someone. I believe that when we get back at someone, the first person that we're hurting is God. If Chris sins against me and then I then turn around and say, “I'm going to go cheat on him.” I've wounded the heart of God first—I have broken covenant with Him first—and then I might hurt my husband.  For me, I would say to that woman—or to anyone—you've got to do the right thing regardless of someone else's actions.  3:00 That's it. Someone else's sinful life does not give me the right to sin against my God. That's where I lived. It's not easy. It's very challenging, and I can't say I did it 100% perfect all the time—but I don't want to break my God's heart—I don't want to do that. Bob: You've had the opportunity, over that last half dozen years, to sit down with lots of couples who have gone through what you lived through. What you lived through was years of your husband looking at pornography—ultimately that lead to affairs outside of marriage—he fathered a son. You didn't know any of this. He finally comes clean. You have to decide—“Am I going to stay with him? Am I going to try to rebuild this marriage? Can I ever trust him again?”—all of these things facing you.  When you sit down with these couples today, they are at a place that you were at, where there is a road in front of them.  4:00 You can pick one path and that's a path that can feel like it will cause the pain to stop right away—or you can pick the other path which feels like this is going to take me right into the pain. What kind of hope do you give them and how do you point them in a God-ward direction? Cindy: The first thing, I think— just the fact that maybe it's the four of us—maybe it's a couple and Chris and me. I think the fact just seeing us brings them some hope—just the fact that we've lived through it. So when I'm faced with that question a lot of women will say, “What should I do?” Honestly, I cannot make that decision for them. I tell them, “You don't you have to decide the rest of your life today.” I steal that little phrase from my friend Kevin.  5:00 But I also just encourage them, “Look, whatever path you take is going to hurt. Where is God leading you? Let the peace of God be your guide.” If you've got a spouse that is willing to do whatever it takes—you're willing to lay your life down and rebuild this. Consider this path. If you've got a spouse that's still with someone else, or is acting like all this is your fault. Then you might have to play some hardball there, and show some tough love.  Dennis: I'm just thinking of the command in Genesis 2, that says, “for this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, shall cleave to one another, and the two shall become one.” If you had not made a covenant between three—a man, and a woman, and their God—there's no way this marriage would be standing today.  Chris: Right! Dennis: There wouldn't be a title of a book, Rebuilding a Marriage Better—Better!— Than New.  Chris: Right. Dennis: The covenant of Almighty God gave you the standard to make this work.  6:00 Chris: Right. One thing that we experienced several years back—I'll set the scenario, but it's super-relevant—almost four years ago, our house burned down. We are going through this process of, “Okay we've lost everything, we have to rebuild. We've got to replace everything.” Our insurance company—that was amazing, I will tell you—they said, “We're going to pay to rebuild your house, but we don't think your foundation is damaged, so we're not going to pay to replace it.”  In our office when we meet with couples—we see this every day—there's some huge catastrophe in their marriage and they want a new house but they are unwilling to replace the old foundation. So how do we communicate? There are behaviors that we've got to go past the foundation and create a new normal. Dennis: What you're saying is, it's not a matter of slapping a new coat of paint— Chris: Right. Dennis: —on a house that is rotting. Chris: Right.  Dennis: But you've got to start with the right foundation.  7:00 I just have to say here, this is why the Weekend to Remember® marriage getaway is so important for couples. I was driven to the airport by a guy whose son and a young lady are getting ready to get married. I told him and I said, “Give your son and your future daughter-in-law the very best wedding gift they will ever receive because it will help them turn their marriage license into a marriage—into a real marriage—” Chris: Right! Dennis: “—into one that is built on the right foundation.” It's very practical—talking about how two imperfect people—from the start—can build a single structure—together—off the same set of blueprints. Give them the conference, the Weekend to Remember marriage getaway as a gift—it will pay off for decades. The guy nodded his head and said, “You know, I'm going to talk to my wife about that tonight because we want their marriage to go the distance.”  8:00 Bob: There's information about the Weekend to Remember online at FamilyLifeToday.com if our listeners are interested. If you have not been—you really ought to check it out.  Dennis: And it's not just for engaged couples.  Bob: No, and that's right! It's always good to take the marriage in for a little preventive maintenance; right? Dennis: We had a couple recently attend who'd been married 60 years.  Bob: Yes. Dennis: They felt it was time for an oil change and a tune-up. There you go!! Bob: I think one of the things that you two have learned in the rebuilding process of your marriage is that as you've invested in other peoples' marriages—God has used that to strengthen the bond between the two of you; right? —Talk about that. Cindy: It is the best part of our story that when we share with others—when we help them with the same help that was given to us—2 Corinthians 1:3-4—when we do that—it's like we heal more. 9:00 Like with each couple we visit with—with each woman I talk with on the phone, or have a FaceTime conversation or meet for coffee—with each conversation, God is redeeming that marriage bit by bit.  What's funny is I love our marriage where it is. We're best friends! We're very healthy—that's the word I use to describe our marriage—very healthy. Not “perfect”, not “good”, not “great”—healthy and strong. What's fun is that it's getting better, because we're going to invest—we are going to continue to steward our story and share and help others so it's just going to get better.  Chris: I'd say for—say for any listener that's in the early stages of just trying to figure out—you're walking through a betrayal, you don't know where to go—the best thing you can do for other people, is not tell a story—but live a story. It's not time for you to focus on helping other people.  10:00 Every day that you walk through a trigger that hits you or you're going to choose to forgive the other person, you're writing a sentence in a paragraph of a story that years from now will be worth telling. You don't need to be focused on telling your story but you need to be focused on writing that story. We do that by submitting to God in every moment of this process of healing.  Bob: I agree with you—I do think though there are some couples who think, “Well, we could never try to reach out and help others because our marriage isn't perfect.”  Chris: Right. Bob: That leaves a lot of people never reaching out and helping anybody— Chris: Right. Bob: —because our marriages are never perfect. At what level of health—where do you need to get to health-wise before you can start to say, “I think maybe we can speak into somebody else's life?” Chris: Early on it wasn't us looking for people to help it was people coming to us. If we felt like we were at least one step ahead of them— Dennis: There you go! Chris: Here we go! Let's go! We can offer you—here's what we're doing, we're on the road too—we're not experts. In these latter days it's been much more where we're looking to pro-actively help people.  11:00 But for the most part of this 15 years, people would come to us, “Hey, I heard you're going through this”—if we really felt like that was a step ahead. That pretty much pertains to every person listening to this—you are a step ahead of someone.  Cindy: Someone. Bob: That's right—and somebody is a step ahead of you. Chris: Correct. Bob: If you can be in a cycle where you're learning from those who are a step ahead of you and you are helping those who are a step behind you. That's how the church is supposed to work—that's what this is supposed to look like; right? Chris: Absolutely! Pauls and Timothys! We each have somebody pouring into us and we each have people that we are pouring into—absolutely! Dennis: You had somebody who invested in you in the early months after the bombshell went off in your marriage.  Cindy: Yes, Jim and Beth Kuykendall—we cannot speak more highly of them. There are not enough words in the dictionary to talk about how amazing they are. Without their input we would just have been a hot mess.  12:00 Chris: Jim and Beth—for the first 30 days—every night—were sitting on our living room floor. There was just this invasive commitment to—“We're going to do life together”—and, “As you guys face things—just today—we're going to process them and speak of life over you—we're going to go to God's word, every single night.”  That may not be realistic for everyone, but that had such a huge impact—not just in the counsel that they gave, but just the relational presence—knowing that they had walked through a similar story. We have a physical example of hope sitting right in front of us on our couch.  Bob: Chris—I have to ask because it's been 15 years now since the story was told. Prior to that time you had been ensnared with pornography and where that led you—the temptation can't have just gone completely away. Over the last 15 years to where you go, yes, you know, I've felt that for a long time and I just never feel it anymore. Chris: I'm all good! I'm fixed!  13:00 Bob: So what's the difference between the temptation today and what it used to be? Chris: How I would answer that is that I am free—but I am not fixed. I'm a human being, I'm imperfect—I have a sin nature just like everyone else. So I am free. I am not a slave to this sin and I haven't been for 15 years—but I am tempted just like everyone else. I‘ll give you an example.  I have learned to see the temptations and respond a little bit more quickly to them. In fact, it wasn't all that long ago, that a young lady that came up to me—a precious young lady—attractive. “Pastor Chris, you've changed my life. I think you could really help me sort through some things in my life.” In that moment, I've got a little bit of warning signs going off—so I called Cindy. “Hey, this just happened to me.” Then I brought my staff—my entire team—I said, “Hey, I want you to keep your eyes on me. If there is anything that you ever see that seems off—intercept it.”  14:00 It wasn't even like an inappropriate conversation on behalf of this girl—it was completely innocent—but it was like just maybe the beginning seed of a temptation that the moment I acknowledged it—and had a conversation with Cindy and my team—it was gone. So I do my best to kind of predict, “Where is the enemy going to come after me?” I am just going to be overly honest when those temptations come.  Keeping it in the dark is like a Petri dish for sin to grow. The moment we bring it into the light I just think that is where the power of healing happens. We do have a spiritual enemy! I believe that in those moments—“I can't, I don't have it in there, I‘m going to have to find a different avenue.” Dennis: I believe it's in Genesis chapter 4 where it talks about sin—  Chris: Crouching. Bob: Crouching at your door? Dennis: Crouching at your door. Chapter 4:7. What I just want every listener—male and female—to know—it may not be pornography.  15:00 I don't know what it is—what your Achilles heel is—but I can promise you—in fact, yesterday when I stepped out of my house, I thought, “I'm stepping out of a safe place.” Not that there isn't sin able to get its way into our house—there is—but I'm stepping into the world where there is a spiritual battle occurring. We don't see what's taking place.  Interestingly a friend sent me a link—and I don't know what my friend was really thinking but I clicked on it and it didn't take long to realize, “This is not a good place to be.” I clicked off and went away. I still think I owe my friend an email back to say, “Why did you send that to me?” By the way, there's a lot of stuff flipped around on the internet and posted in all kinds of places—just be wise.  16:00 You may be throwing something to someone and it may be his or her Achilles heel—spiritually speaking.  Chris: The spirit and the flesh—the Bible says—are at war for what is going to be dominant in their lives. The Holy Spirit wants to be that which propels us and leads every part of our lives—but if the things that we're feeding our mind and our time are the things of the flesh—we're going to be dominated by the flesh. We just have to be very aware that the more we can starve our flesh and feed the things that the Spirit in us craves, those temptations will minimize. They don't go away—but they will minimize. Bob: Most of us are way too casual in our daily battle with sin. Chris: Agreed. Bob: We walk around like there is not a war going on—we walk around like we're in complete safety—and we get ambushed when we do that.  Chris: Right. Bob: As opposed to walking around with the alert system on—your alert system that goes— 17:00 “Okay—this is just a seed here—but a seed can grow into something if I don't deal with it right now.” Dennis: I want to encourage our listeners—every listener who is a follower of Jesus Christ is an ambassador—an ambassador you have a message and a mission. I want to read to you a little bit of your mission and message found in Isaiah 61. If you haven't read the first eight to ten verses of this passage of Scripture you ought to read it because I've thought of this all week as we've interviewed you two—how you guys are really like something that's described in here—I'll get to that in a moment.  Here's what it says about our message and our mission: “The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the LORD has anointed me to bring good news to the poor; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, — 18:00 to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound; and to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor—” It goes on to talk about some other matters and then it says: “that they may be called”—and this is what I thought of you two—“oaks of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified. They shall build up the ancient ruins; they shall raise up the former devastations; they shall repair the ruined cities,”—listen to this last phrase—“the devastations of many generations.” Chris: Wow! Dennis: You two are oaks of righteousness—you are providing shade for couples who've gone through the valley and they're in need of someone saying, “You can do it!” 19:00  Chris: Wow! Dennis: The church is there. We will come along side you, we will pray for you, we will minister to you and future generations are at stake. Bob: Tell our listeners about the dinner you had not long ago with somebody who had found Chris and Cindy's story online along with other stories that they've heard on FamilyLife Today—and how God had used that in his life. Dennis: This is a person who been through dark days in his marriage. He became a super sleuth on FamilyLife Today. He went in search of every story of redemption and reconciliation that he could find and he found yours. He said, “I was hopeless but I listened and I listened and I listened.” For three and a half years he battled for his marriage. Chris: Wow! 20:00 Dennis: I asked him—I said, “If I went to your wife right now and asked her what your marriage was like on a ten point scale what would she say?” He said, “A ten!” What about you? A ten! And he's not saying it's perfect, but he's just saying where sin abounds, grace and forgiveness much more. That is the gospel of Jesus Christ. Nobody listening to us here is beyond the reach of God's arm to welcome you in to the family and forgive your sin. There's nothing you have done that you can earn God's favor—nor nothing you can do to cause Him to flee from you. You just need to receive Jesus Christ as your Lord, Master, and Savior and then get on with the process— Chris: Amen. Dennis: —of becoming God's man—God's woman, and if you're married—God's couple. Then leave a godly legacy to future generations which you guys have done. 21:00   And I just have to tell you again. I'm really proud of you for not quitting—for still standing—and for using your wounds to proclaim who Christ is. Way to go! Cindy: Thank you! Chris: God is good! Bob: I can imagine there are folks listening who have been thinking—as they've heard you share your story—about a couple they know facing a similar situation—where there's been infidelity, betrayal, where trust has been broken. I‘d encourage them not only to send their friends a link to the conversations we've had here this week, but also send them a copy of the book, Rebuilding A Marriage Better Than New—where you share with folks what you've done and how God's worked in your marriage to bring it to where it is today.  We've got copies of the book, Rebuilding A Marriage Better Than New in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can go online to order your copy. Our website is FamilyLifeToday.com.  22:00 You can also order by phone. Our number is 1-800-FL-TODAY. So again. the website— FamilyLifeToday.com. The phone number is 1-800-FL-TODAY. Ask about the book, Rebuilding A Marriage Better Than New by Cindy Beall when you get in touch with us. And, if you're online be sure to watch the video clip that features Chris and Cindy sharing their story. Maybe you'd want to forward that to your friends as well. Again the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. As summer is coming to an end, the month of August is almost over and that means we're in the home stretch for the matching gift opportunity that we've been telling you about all month long. We had a friend of the ministry come to us back at the beginning of the month. He offered to match every donation we receive during the month of August on a dollar for dollar basis. He put a cap on that at $800,000.  We're in the home stretch to try to make sure that we're able to take full advantage of those matching gift funds. 23:00 If we are, it will allow us to extend the reach of all that we're doing here at FamilyLife in the months ahead. Help us reach more young married couples, more moms and dads, more people worldwide with practical, biblical help and hope for your marriage and your family.  In fact, we did some calculating not long ago and just with this radio program—if you're able to donate $8.24—we can get the program in the ears of 1000 people. Of course, when you make that donation we'll get another $8.24 from the matching gift fund—another 1000 people. So it's just a great opportunity, but it's got an expiration date—and that is tomorrow.  We're asking you today to donate online at FamilyLifeToday.com or call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. Or you can mail your donation and—as long as it's postmarked today or tomorrow—it will still qualify for matching funds.  24:00 Our mailing address is: FamilyLife Today, P.O. Box 7111 Little Rock, Arkansas. Our zip code is 72223. And again, please pray that we will receive enough donations to be able to take full advantage of this matching gift. I hope you can join us back tomorrow. We're going to talk about the power of decisions that we make—and how some decisions can be life altering. We'll talk more about that tomorrow. Hope you can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today; his name is Keith Lynch, also our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. A Cru® ministry.Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. 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FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. The Deadly Traps of Adolescence Day 5 of 10 Guest:                        Dennis and Barbara Rainey From the series:       Dating  Bob:                There are times when a conversation between a father and his daughter can be a little awkward. Dad:                Hi, Jules, how was gymnastics? Julie:               Good.  I landed the double tonight. Dad:                All right, way to go.  Jules, how are you doing with the guys? Julie:               Okay. Dad:                You know, your mom and I have been talking about you and all those boys who call on the phone. Julie:               Great. Dad:                Your mom and I just want to make sure you know what you stand for as you get old enough to date, you know what I mean? Julie:               I know, Dad. Dad:                I want to ask you a very personal question and, listen, you've got the freedom not to answer if you don't want to, okay? Julie:               Sure, Dad, why not? Dad:                Have you thought through how far you're going to go physically with the opposite sex? Julie:               Uh-huh. Dad:                Well, then, would you mind telling me how far you intend to go? Julie:               I know, Dad. Dad:                Where are you going to draw your boundaries, Jules?  Your limits? Julie:               Dad, I know what's right and what's wrong, okay? Dad:                Okay, I'll take that for an answer – for now. Bob:                And welcome to FamilyLife Today.  Thanks for joining us on the Friday edition of our broadcast.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and, Dennis, your wife Barbara joining us this week as well.  I'm Bob Lepine, and the tension in that car between that dad and that daughter … Dennis:          … did you hear her keep turning that radio up? Bob:                She did not want to talk. Dennis:          I've been there. Bob:                I've been there, too – got a few radios turned up on me in the conversation.  This is a particularly difficult issue for parents to deal with, with their children.  We've talked on the last couple of broadcasts about how we've got to press through some of that negative static we get from our kids, and get to the core issues around physical involvement, sexual involvement.                          But one of the other traps facing our children as they walk through the teenage years is a trap that is right alongside the trap of sexual intimacy.  It's the trap of dating.  In fact, it may be the gateway.  I think you probably have to step in the dating trap before you usually ever get to the sexual relationship trap, and that's where a lot of parents have got to be shrewd in this culture. Dennis:          You know, parents have got to realize that as our children grow up and into the teenage years, there are going to be these hidden traps, these hidden snares, that will be set for them, and I think one of the biggest ones that they will face is this issue of dating.                           I think of the verse over in Psalm 142, verse 3 – it says, "When my spirit grows faint within me, it is you who know my way.  In the path where I walk, men have hidden a snare for me.  Look to my right and see no one is concerned for me.  I have no refuge.  No one cares for my life."                         Well, the psalmist didn't feel that, but a teenager ought to be able to say, "I have a parent.  I have a mom and a dad.  I have a mom, a dad, and a grandparent who care about my way and who are looking out for the hidden snare of dating and the attraction to the opposite sex." Bob:                I think the big question, Barbara, for a lot of kids, as they approach junior high, and they start to develop some interest in members of the opposite sex is – when can I start?  How soon can I start dating?  And that question might creep up on you. Barbara:         Oh, I think it does creep up on you, just like a lot of this other stuff creeps up on parents of adolescents.  We discovered that early on with Ashley, our oldest.  We were at a conference, and we were there with another family, and this other family had a son who was a year older than Ashley, and they had been friends for years, and we just didn't think a whole lot about it.  But they decided one day they wanted to take a walk together and go get a Coke, and we let them go, and then kind of later on we realized they spent some time together alone.  They're 12 and 13 years old. Dennis:          Yeah, she was 12 years old. Barbara:         Yeah, and she kind of likes him, and he kind of likes her and, gosh, I think she just had a date, and we just kind of realized, all of a sudden, that we had allowed her to spend time alone with a boy, and that seemed to be a good definition of a date, and we weren't prepared for that.  But, in essence, that is what happened with Ashley, is she was alone with a boy that she liked, and he liked her, and she really had her first date at 12. Bob:                Dating today has become just the accepted practice of American teenagers.  It's just what you do when you're in junior high and in senior high, and many parents have said, "Well, I guess that's the way it is, and yet you all see some real dangers in the way we do dating today with our kids, don't you? Dennis:          Yeah, what we call the "dating game" is currently being played in most Christian families, and it cultivates romantic fantasy love before children are emotionally, physically, and spiritually mature enough to have a relationship with the opposite sex.  And one-on-one dating leads couples to spending too much time alone at the time when the sex drive is at an all all-time peak for a young man.  I mean, it's like taking gunpowder and striking a match, leaving them alone to experience some of these feelings. Barbara:         Another thing, too, that we've seen with our kids is that they don't have the maturity to make a wise choice about who to spend time with.  They often make their choices of who they're going to like based on just who is available, because everybody else has a boyfriend or a girlfriend, and so they decide they need to have somebody, and so they just sort of pick somebody.  They don't think through – what is this person's values?  They don't think through is this person good for me or not good for me or what kind of family does he or she come from?  They're just kind of desperate, and so they just pick somebody. Dennis:          And it looks like child's play, because they're children, they're not even, in many cases, into puberty yet, and yet they have these emotional attachments that they develop, romance begins to stir the soul, and it looks for a way to express itself, and the way that romance expresses itself in most people is physically.  We begin to show physical affection and appreciation for the other person, and once that starts, where does that lead?  And I think that, alone, is one of the biggest cases against allowing your child to date before they're spiritually mature enough and emotionally mature enough to handle the feelings that come with adolescence. Barbara:         Another thing that happens when kids begin to pair off is they begin to have their needs met by that other person, and even if your child comes from a strong home, where you and your spouse are giving that child the attention and the affection and everything that he needs or she needs to be secure, once an attachment takes place with someone else, and your child hooks up with another boy or girl, and they become an item at school – even with the best that you're doing at home, they're going to choose to get their needs met from that other person, because that's more convenient.                           They're at school together all day long, so even in the best of homes these kids can hook up with another boy or girl and get those emotional needs met for love and security and attention and everything through that relationship, and then they come home and spend all evening on the phone, and Mom and Dad's influence is cut to nothing. Dennis:          And you wonder why you don't have the influence on them, and you know what?  We've experienced this.  We've watched some of our children establish these exclusive relationships, and we've experienced the loss.  We wonder, "What's going to happen to my relationship with that child?"  Well, the reality is someone else is getting that relationship, and someone else is having the influence, and someone else is shaping the values, and someone else is charting a course for that young person's life.                         You know what?  It's not their husband or their wife, they're not married.  But, in many cases, a lot of these teenagers are acting like they're married, and they're sharing things emotionally and physically that were only intended to be shared in marriage. Bob:                Okay, well, with all of this stuff that you've talked about – dangers in dating – why go anywhere near it?  Why let your kids anywhere near it?  Why don't you just seal them up until they're 19, put them in a closet somewhere, and then let them get out and start … Barbara:         Mm-hm, I think that's a good idea. [laughter]  Dennis:          Because they lock people up for that, Bob.  I think every parent listening to us says, "Yeah, I'll vote for that," but you can go to jail for that, you know, today.                         I think what we want to do is we want to look at how we can help our children begin to have a healthy respect for the opposite sex, have a healthy respect for their own identity, and then begin to learn how to relate to the opposite sex and develop relationships that don't … Barbara:         Friendships.  Dennis:          Yeah, that don't necessarily become romantic relationships. Bob:                Yeah, your children, Barbara, have been on dates, but it's been different than what we think of when we think of kids dating or going together.  You've really tried to ride herd on not letting them become romantically attached. Barbara:         Yeah, and the big thing is to make sure that they're not alone, because that is when all the dangerous stuff happens, is when they're alone.  So what we've tried to do with all of our kids and increasingly so with our younger ones – we're getting more and more involved in this area, we're becoming more and more proactive in this area than we even were with our older ones – we are now with our younger kids, and that is when we do allow them to go out, and it is a good bit later than what probably is the norm in the culture, we've tried to create an environment where they go with another group of kids, and they have activities that they do together that are group-centered so that they're never alone.                           They don't have the opportunity to enter into those temptations and then yield to them.  So they go as a group, and they come home as a group, and they do things at our house with groups, and we're trying to foster the idea of developing a friendship with another guy, rather than developing a romance. Dennis:          Some parents, at this point, probably wonder if we're making too big a deal out of this.  I don't think so, I really don't.  I think one of the most dangerous things that's occurring today is giving our young people too much freedom before they are emotionally or physically or spiritually mature enough to make these life-altering decisions.                         And moms and dads – it's us – we are the ones responsible.  We must assume the responsibility God has given to us as being the guardians and the protectors of our children all the way through adolescence. Bob:                Barbara, let's say it's spring break week, and one of your children comes to you and says, "Hey, Mom, there's a group of kids going to the mall to see a movie," and let's assume it's a movie that's acceptable – there are a few of those out these days, but let's just assume there's an acceptable film there.  There's a group going, and they called and "they want to know if I can go."  And you ask the question – "Is it boys and girls?"  And the answer is yes.  How old does the child have to be before the answer is, "Yes, you can go." Barbara:         Well, there isn't really a specific age limit, although, generally, it would be 15 or 16 in our family. Dennis:          At the earliest. Barbara:         Right.  Primarily the decision would be based upon the maturity level of that child.  Has this kid demonstrated to us that he or she can be trusted to be alone with a bunch of kids unsupervised by adults?  Then I would want to know who those kids are, how they're getting there, how they're getting back, how long they're going to be there, and just all the details – and do I need to be driving and all that kind of stuff.  But if we let one of our kids go and do that with a group we would want to know those specifics about the situation, but it would all depend on that child and their responsiveness to us. Dennis:          Over in the Song of Solomon, chapter 8, verses 8 through 10, Solomon speaks of what's called "a little sister."  And there were actually two of them in that passage.  One who was spoken of as a wall, the other one spoken of as a gate.                           The wall was the sexually pure, the one who was in control of her own emotions and one that was managing adolescence well, I think.  And the gate is the girl – or for that matter, a guy – who would be too sexually open or too free with the opposite sex.                           What happened in that passage was Solomon celebrated the wall, and he built a cedar barricade around the gate.  He didn't give the gate freedom, he protected the gate.  He celebrated the right choices of the girl who was the wall, and I think, as parents, what we've got to do is truly watch how our sons and our daughters are, and that's what Barbara is talking about here, and give them additional responsibility, additional freedom as they've been a wall, and then if they show tendencies to being the gate, pull out the cedar and start hammering away at that barricade. Bob:                You've got kids, though, in high school before they can go watch a movie in the middle of the afternoon with a mixed group of kids unsupervised – high school. Barbara:         Yeah, we do. Dennis:          And she didn't blink, either. Bob:                No, she didn't, and I'm sure some of your kids have looked at you and said, "Mom, I've got to wait until high school?" Barbara:         Well, and a lot of it, too, depends on who the kids are.  Because, see, if I'm involved with my children, like I am, I know who their friends are and who might be somebody that they would be interested in romantically.  So it's one thing to send my kids off in a mixed group with a bunch of truly buddy friends, and it's another thing to send them off to a movie in a mixed group where there might be somebody that they're really interested in.                           So that's why I want to know who it is and who is going and how they're getting there, so you've got to ask 50 zillion questions to finally find out what the facts are. Dennis:          A couple of nights ago we had some friends over at the house, Scott and Theresa, and our daughters were all just huddled up around the table.  It was a fascinating evening, and we got off talking about this.  And our teenage daughters were all there, talking, and Scott asked our oldest about dating.                         And both Barbara and I had our jaws nearly drop to the floor, Bob, as our teenage daughter, Rebecca, who is 17 years old, said to Scott, she said, "Well, as you raise your girls, don't let them date until they get out of high school."                         Hello?  And, I mean, this – this … Bob:                You ran for the tape recorder, didn't you?  Dennis:          I said, "Can we get fingerprints – we've got eyewitnesses, can we get this in writing?  They do begin to get the point after a while.  They begin to understand, you know what?  Dating ends up in heartbreaking situations where you lose your boyfriend, and you cry for nights on end, and there's … Barbara:         It's just not worth it. Dennis:          It's not worth it. Barbara:         They finally figure it out. Dennis:          It really isn't, and it's worth far more to teach them how to develop a friendship and to keep relationships at that level. Bob:                What age do they have to be before they can go on a double date with somebody, you know – to the prom in the car? Barbara:         Well, probably, it would be 17.  We used to say 16, but we're getting tighter on this.  It's probably going to be more like 17. Bob:                Junior year? Barbara:         Mm-hm, mm-hm. Dennis:          At the earliest, again. Bob:                What about a single date, where you just go out with a young man for dinner for the evening? Dennis:          Probably – right now, where we are on that, we would probably not encourage that to happen. Bob:                At all ever? Dennis:          In high school. Barbara:         In high school, yeah.  Although, you know, there – we might make an exception, depending on who the young man is and if they really – we really feel like we can trust him and her, and this really is just going to be a friendship kind of thing, and it's not going to be – turn into anything else.  You know, we might do that, but it takes an enormous amount of time and energy to figure out if that really is the case. Dennis:          And even as I said that I'm thinking our daughter, who is 17, has gone and gotten coffee with "a friend,"  Barbara:         Mm-hm, a couple of times. Dennis:          And has sat there talking, but it's not a friend that she has any kind of romantic interest in.  Now, here is an important point as parents ride herd on this issue.  Your kids are going to look you in the eye and they say, "But I'm not interested in them romantically."  If that's so, why are you holding their hand?  I don't hold my best friend's hand.  Holding hands is not a sign of friendship in this culture.  It may be over in Europe, but it's not yet in America.  It is usually a sign of affection. Barbara:         Romantic affection. Dennis:          That's right, and you know what?  It's astounding, as parents, how dumb I can be.  I have had our children look me back in the eye and say, "But it's just a friendship."  And I go, "Yeah, just a friendship."  Then I get back, and I go, "Wait a second – no, no, no.  They were sitting beside each other.  They were holding hands on the bus.  Hold it, wait a second" … Bob:                … there's more going on here. Dennis:          What's wrong with this picture?  And it's – as a parent, what is there about us that we question ourselves and our own judgment?  Our judgment is not in question here.  Hold it.  I'm the parent.  I'm counseling myself, by the way, right now – but I am the parent, and I have to be reminded from time to time that I need to reassert myself and it's almost – pull the sword out and put it on my shoulders and say, "You are the one that has the authority in this situation, don't back off, don't become a wimp, don't lack courage.  Step into that relationship, and when they give you some baloney like that and tell you it's just a friendship, call their cards out and say, "Oh, come on, no way, Jose.  That's more than just a friendship." Bob:                Aren't these kinds of restrictions or rules going to make your kids the nerds of the world in the school where they're going? Barbara:         Well, it may be but, you know, I think that's okay.  I think that it's more important for our kids, we've decided, to protect them as best we can from being hurt and wounded in relationships that they are not mature enough to handle.                           And you can do some things to help ensure that they don't feel unduly punished by this.  I mean, you invite kids over to your house, and you have lots of friends around, and you encourage them to have their same-sex friends spend the night, you know, all that kind of stuff so that they don't feel that they're isolated and left alone and stuck in a tower until they're 18 … Dennis:          … instead of the closet. Barbara:         But, you know, I just think it's important enough for us – we've decided it's important enough that I will risk that my kids will feel strange and different, and I think that's okay.  I would rather they feel strange, different, feel like a nerd, and be safe than let them ride with all the other kids in the herd and get hurt and get tangled up in emotional and physical relationships that they don't need. Dennis:          Here is where a mom and a dad need to be as shrewd as they can be – single parents, same deal – you ought to rally some other parents with you.  See if you can't go set up a parents' meeting and say, "Can we huddle up here?  Can we all agree to something where we kind of share some common values?"  And maybe you don't agree all the way down to the nth degree and, Bob, that's one of the things that concerns me about some of the movements that are occurring within the Christian community right now. They get so exclusive, so nailed down, so tight, that anybody who is outside their own little prescribed way of doing things, they fracture and fragment and can't fellowship with them, and that's not the kind of unity we need today.  Christian families need to be bonding together and banding together and helping one another raise these children on into maturity, because you know what?  These teenagers today desperately need the community of Christians to make it and to finish the process of adolescence and to make it to adulthood and to become God's man and God's woman, and I just think it's time for all of us to come alongside each other and to help one another raise these children. Bob:                Well, and that's what I think you and Barbara have done in the book, "Parenting Today's Adolescent." You've come alongside us, and you're helping us think through our own convictions in this area and help us decide how we're going to live out those convictions, and how we're going to help guide our sons and daughters through these difficult and dangerous water as they go through adolescence.                         And I appreciate the fact that you guys, along with people like Joshua Harris and Elizabeth Elliot and others have said, "Let's hold a high standard here for moral purity.  Let's not just make the standard a standard of virginity, but let's make it a more biblical standard of purity.                                     There may be some listeners who think, "Oh, you're out of touch," or "You're old-fashioned," or "You don't know the culture our kids are living in today," and, again, that's where you say "All right, you don't have to buy our standard, but you have to decide for yourself what your standard is going to be and what you're going to try to guide your sons and daughters with.                         And whatever you decide, the book, "Parenting Today's Adolescent," will be a helpful resource in that regard.  You can get more information about the book on our website at FamilyLife.com. When you get to the home page, you'll see a red button in the middle of the screen that says "Go," and if you click that button, it will take you to an area of the site where there is information not only about the book, "Parenting Today's Adolescent," but other resources for parents of teens and of preteens because, actually, you ought to be looking at this material prior to your children's teenage years.                         Again, the resources are available online, and you can order online, if you'd like, or get more information.  If you prefer to call to order, it's 1-800-FLTODAY, that's 1-800-358-6329.  Someone on our team can answer any questions you have about these resources we've talked about, or they can take your order over the phone, and we'll get the resources you need sent out to you.                         And then this month we have an additional resource we'd love to send to you.  It's a new book by Dennis Rainey called "Interviewing Your Daughter's Date."  It's designed to help us, as parents, have a strategy in place so that when a young man does begin to show some kind of interest in our daughter, and maybe our daughter is showing some interest back, we can know how to engage both of them in that subject and help set up some boundaries around what the relationship ought to look like at this stage of their life, and if they are going to go out on a date at some point, to have some parameters around that event as well.                           The book is new, and this month, again, it's our thank you gift when you help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today with a donation of any amount.  We are listener-supported, and we appreciate your financial partnership with us when you make a donation to FamilyLife Today.                           If you're donating online, and you'd like a copy of Dennis's book, just write the word "date" in the keycode box on the donation form online.  Or if you call 1-800-FLTODAY to make a donation, you can just request a copy of Dennis Rainey's new book, "Interviewing Your Daughter's Date," and we'll be happy to send it out to you.  Again, the toll-free number is 1-800-FLTODAY, and you can donate online at FamilyLife.com                         Well, we hope you have a great weekend, and we hope you can be back with us on Monday when we're going to continue to look at some of the deadly traps that are facing our children as they go through the adolescent years, and we're going to continue to look at this subject of dating.  Also, next week we're going to look at pornography and substance abuse and media, and we're going to look at unresolved anger and how that can explode in the life of a teenager.  I hope you can be with us for all of that.                         I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.                          FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. _______________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. 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  FUll Transcript Below Show Summary: Serina Gilbert is always coming across great stories and this one from Erin and Bob at White Cane Coffee is as good as it gets. Taking a Bad Day and transferring that into the launching of a new company, Erin and Bob, a daughter and son team, tell us why they wanted to start White Cane Coffee and how they want to impact others with the opportunity through the affiliate program coming soon. You can check out the line of White Cane Coffee on the web at www.WhiteCaneCoffee.comand find the coffee that best suits you.  Here is an overview of White Cane Coffee taken from the web: Hi, I’m Erin from White Cane Coffee. I, with the help of my parents, started this company to provide great coffee to our customers and provide self sustaining jobs for people with disabilities. We have a variety of coffee roasts for your enjoyment. Colombian Supremo is sweet, smooth and bold. We also have a Colombian Supremo Decaf which gives you all the same great flavor without all the caffeine. But, if you want that caffeine boost, try our High Octane. Our Donut Shop blend gives you that fruity, clean taste you expect to find in your neighborhood pastry shop. If you like a bold, earthy cup of joe, try our Dark Roast, it is roasted from 100% Indonesian Sumatra beans. French Roast gives you that rich, robust flavor you may crave. Or if you prefer a Breakfast Blend, ours will give you that tangy, fruity flavor you will love. All of our beans are organic and micro-roasted, using hot air to give you the very best quality and flavor. There is nothing worse than waking up in the morning and discovering you are out of coffee. (I shudder at the mere thought of it). So, that is why we offer a subscription service so you can receive your favorite White Cane Coffee right on your door step every month. If you make your subscription for a full year, we will cover your shipping. You will also notice that, other than our sample box, (which I highly recommend so you find the right blend for you), our coffee arrives in 1 pound and 2 pound packages. You will actually get what you expect you are paying for. Now a bit about White Cane Coffee, and why we standout. The reason I wanted to start White Cane Coffee is because, number one, “Who doesn’t love coffee.”. But most importantly, my brothers and I are all on the Autism Spectrum and I am also blind. We have found that finding jobs extremely difficult. In our experience, employers didn’t want to provide full time or a living wages to handicapped individuals. Or because of bullying on the job site staying at some jobs unbearable. So, at 22, I started to ask, “When you have the right people around you, the question stops being, What can I do? but What’s stopping me”. So here we are. Our goal is to provide a welcoming environment to all people and provide jobs to the handicapped community at a living wage. Most of all, we want to provide you with a Great cup of coffee! Check out this episode of Job Insights and send us your feedback and topic suggestions by email. Follow the Job Insights team on twitter @JobInsightsVIP Job Insights is part of the Blind Abilities network. Contact: Thank you for listening! You can follow us on Twitter @BlindAbilities On the web at www.BlindAbilities.com Send us an email Get the Free Blind Abilities App on the App Store. Full Transcript   Jeff Thompson: I saw one on there that was called the high octane.   Bob: Yeah, that one's double the caffeine, double have fun.   Serena Gilbert: Do not ship that one to Jeff.   Jeff Thompson: Job Insights, a podcast to help you carve out your career pathway and enhance the opportunities for gainful employment.   Serena Gilbert: I saw a post from White Cane Coffee, and I was intrigued because the name, I think it's like a super awesome name for a company.   Jeff Thompson: Learn about resources for training, education and employment opportunities.   Erin: I swear, the excitement for me is just constant, because again, I'm just branching out on new things, I'm meeting with people in the community, I'm on podcast now. There's always new things that we're doing, so one part of it may not be as flashy or exciting as it was, but there's a new part that's brand sparkling new and just like, yeah.   Jeff Thompson: You will hear from people seeking careers, employment from professionals in the educational field, teachers, and innovators in this ever changing world of technology.   Speaker 5:          That's an easy one to remember, because everyone knows the white game, everyone loves coffee and.com there you go.   Jeff Thompson: For more podcasts with the blindness perspective, check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com, on Twitter @BlindAbilities and download our free Blind Abilities App from the APP store, that's two words, blind abilities. Now please welcome Serena Gilbert and Jeff Thompson with Job Insights.   Erin: If they do find work, it's for absolutely a pittance amount of money, so we're just like, let's employ them and pay them fairly.   Jeff Thompson: Welcome to the Job Insights. I'm Jeff Thompson and with me is Serena Gilbert. How are you doing Serena?   Serena Gilbert: I am doing absolutely fantastic, Jeff, how are you?   Jeff Thompson: I'm doing good. You came across a great company on Facebook and invited them on. Tell us a little bit about it.   Serena Gilbert: I was scrolling through Facebook like I do for, I don't even know how many hours a day at this point, and I saw a post from White Cane Coffee and I was intrigued because, well of course, first the name, I think it's like a super awesome name for a company, and secondly, what their mission was and how they started a company to be able to have nice jobs for individuals with disabilities to be able to be a little bit more self-sustaining. I really, really liked that idea.   Jeff Thompson: Entrepreneurship right there. I like it.   Serena Gilbert: Of course.   Jeff Thompson: Well we got them here in the studio. Let's welcome. Erin and Bob from White Cane Coffee. How are you guys doing?   Erin: We're doing well.   Bob: Doing wonderful, glad to be here.   Jeff Thompson: Well, thank you for taking the time, coming on to Job Insights. It's exciting, it's exciting. I read Erin's article on Facebook and yeah, I really liked it. Bang, here we are. Let's start it out by what got you started with White Cane Coffee?   Erin: Well, honestly it started with me having a bad day, and so just it's hard when you're disabled and trying to find a job and just, it's frustrating. When I'm frustrated like that, me and my dad will play games, like we'll create [inaudible] or in this case we were just like, if you had x amount of money, what would you do to grow it? And so one day we started with a coffee company and then we just kept talking about this coffee company just like, well, what would you do with this, or what would you do with that? It's just like, well, why not hire people with disabilities for one thing, and just it kept growing until eventually were just like, Oh, we're actually doing this, aren't we?   Bob: Yeah. That was about six months ago, and so then it was just doing research, figuring out exactly what it was going to take to create this coffee company. And so that meant we needed an accountant, we needed an attorney, we needed to figure out how we were going to get our coffee roasted, packaging, getting the shipping, getting the website up. It became a creature unto itself, but the best part was we had fun doing it and right now, I mean, the response we're getting, even from our local community, they love our coffee. We did a couple of hundred sample bags or whatever, and we just gave them out to everyone, and everyone said, "Oh isn't that [inaudible]."   Bob: And then they called back and said, "You know, that was really good coffee. I need more."   Bob: Now every time we turn around, somebody's calling us up saying, "We need more." That's our whole thing is getting the word out, letting people know we have great coffee.   Serena Gilbert: That's fantastic, Bob, and I know you have kind of a unique business model. Do you want to share with us some of the services that customers can receive from your coffee business?   Bob: The key is, they can go online at whitecanecoffee.com, and one of the first things that shows up, the first item there is a sample box because people always say, what is your best coffee? Well, they're all great, so it all depends on the customer. We suggest to them, order up the sample box, try them all, find the one that fits your likes, then order whether it's subscription or it's a [inaudible], whatever the case may be, but we want them to find the one they like the best. That's really our model, that in a nutshell is our coffee is roasted fresh for them. Most coffees that you get, say at a grocery store and some of the big names that I'm not going to mention but we all know who they are, those sit in a warehouse for up to a year before they even get to the store. We like our coffee what, how old Erin?   Erin: About a week fresh, so from the time we package that to the point where it gets to your door, it's only about a week old, so you know you're going to get the freshest cup of coffee that you are able to have.   Jeff Thompson: I couldn't help it but I saw one on there that was called high octane.   Bob: Yeah, that one's double the caffeine, double the fun.   Serena Gilbert: Do not ship that one too Jeff, Oh my goodness.   Bob: Don't ship that one. That one is actually very popular, especially the people work like third shifts or you know-   Erin: The mid night hour [inaudible].   Bob: They're the ones who order it and they go, the flavor's great [inaudible] and we're awake. And I said, well that's pretty much what it does.   Erin: [inaudible] through testing.   Bob: Yeah, that one was hard.   Jeff Thompson: You mentioned earlier you had a tough three weeks of testing coffee and that must've been fun, because none of these go out without you guys knowing what exactly you're selling.   Erin: Exactly.   Bob: Exactly, that's I mean each time ... We roaster whatever, we sample it. It doesn't just like oh it's good enough. The good enough is never good enough. The product has to be right every time it goes out, because that's our reputation that's on the line here. We're not some huge mega corporation where you get a bad pot of coffee and lose a customer they go, eh. With us, that doesn't work that way. Every customer needs to be happy.   Jeff Thompson: And they can find this at whitecanecoffee.com.   Bob: Correct.   Erin: Yup.   Jeff Thompson: That's an easy one to remember, because knows the White Cane, everyone loves coffee and .com, there you go.   Bob: That was even our reasoning of naming the company and with our logo, with the young girl, with the white cane, we want people to know exactly who we are, when they see our logo, they know.   Erin: It was [inaudible] a blind disabled person or blind disabled people, people and just disabled people, and people, people.   Jeff Thompson: People, people. I like it.   Bob: But that was it. We want people to know exactly who we are and what we're about, the transparency, I guess is the new buzzword that everybody uses, but that is important. They need to know who we are. When they go on our Facebook page or whatever, and even once the about page is done finally on the website, there's a picture of Erin right there. She is the face of our company, this is her baby. There's no big corporate board room back here where everybody's hanging out.   Jeff Thompson: Yeah.   Erin: Home grown.   Jeff Thompson: It's amazing the way you can start by just having a bad day, right Erin?   Erin: I know.   Bob: Isn't that how all the great companies have started though, is somebody sitting around saying there's a problem and then eventually somebody says, Hey, I think we can fix it.   Jeff Thompson: Solution based, there you go.   Serena Gilbert: Well, I understand that you guys employ a few individuals that also have disabilities. Is that correct?   Erin: Yes.   Bob: Yes.   Serena Gilbert: Tell us a little bit about what made you design your business in that way?   Erin: Well, if I was having trouble finding a job for my disability, and there is a huge population in our town of disabled people on who just cannot find work, or if they do find work, it's for absolutely a pittance amount of money, so we're just like, let's employ them and pay them fairly.   Jeff Thompson: I like that.   Bob: We're all about living wage. People sit in and say, well, like I said, you know, if you have a sheltered workshop, there's no bottom to how much they can pay their employees. Like ours, we have one here nearby and they pay about a dollar, dollar 10 an hour is what they pay their employees. You can't live on that. And second of all, with social security at 750 a month, I think it is, you can't live on that. I mean, you can't pay rent, you can't pay utilities, you can't do anything. They're all into survival mode. Well, there's more to life than just survival mode. We want people to have a decent wage, so at the end of the week they can pay all their bills and you know what, there's still some money left-over to do what they want to do and have some fun.   Jeff Thompson: And buy some coffee.   Bob: Buy more.   Jeff Thompson: There you go.   Serena Gilbert: Very smart business model there.   Bob: That's what it really was all about. Not only have we found work for Erin and her brothers now, but we're finding work for people who are just like her because that's what you're supposed to do.   Jeff Thompson: Erin, on your picture on Facebook, you do have a cane here wearing sunglasses, so you are blind?   Erin: Correct. I only have 5% of my vision left.   Jeff Thompson: When did that start?   Erin: I started to lose my vision when I was about 15.   Jeff Thompson: Did it affect you in how you did your education at school?   Erin: Yes actually. I had to, with assistance, essence basically people reading me the questions on the test. I graduated high school at 15.   Serena Gilbert: Look at that, wow. That's not an easy accomplishment. That's awesome, Erin.   Erin: Thank you.   Serena Gilbert: Yeah, I could not imagine.   Jeff Thompson: That's awesome for anybody.   Serena Gilbert: Yeah, it's a big deal.   Jeff Thompson: Wow.   Bob: Well, Erin was in the gifted program when she was in school, and so it wasn't much of a challenge for the school just to allow her basically to test out. It was interesting and it's like, okay, here's all the subjects you can pass everything, you can graduate and she did.   Erin: Through the first try and they're just like, yeah, okay, that's fair.   Bob: She had her diploma and we moved on.   Jeff Thompson: There you go. You might want to give that college thing a try, that might be a piece of cake too.   Bob: Someday.   Jeff Thompson: There you go.   Bob: But right now, like I said, we're challenged in what we're doing and I think right now as this company is growing here, this is going to keep her busy for many, many years to come.   Jeff Thompson: That's great.   Erin: We're hoping the best for this.   Jeff Thompson: It's nice to have a challenge, and to challenge yourself and that's what we all kind of look for, is to accept the challenges and it keeps you waking up in the morning with a good cup of coffee, that helps too, right Serena?   Serena Gilbert: Of course. Now if you guys start shipping out hot chocolate I'm in, because I'm not much of a coffee drinker because it makes me completely stay up for days. But some hot chocolate, I'll be totally about it.   Erin: [inaudible] considered it yet, but maybe in the distant future, we're thinking maybe hot chocolate or teas or something like that, but for right now we're strictly coffee.   Jeff Thompson: Yeah, I'm sorry, I didn't know she wasn't a coffee drinker. I would've got someone else to come on the podcast, sorry Bob.   Serena Gilbert: Oh Jeff.   Bob: On of the other things we are trying to do here is, hopefully within the next week is we are setting up affiliate programs so that other people who are blind and disabled all across the country can also be a part of this company, because we would love to see White Cane Coffee basically in every town, business, home across this nation. I want people, no matter where they go, they're going to see White Cane Coffee on Facebook, on Instagram, Twitter. That's the name of this game here. We have a great product, and we want to be able to share that with everyone in the United States, and we also want people to be able to earn a living as affiliates across the country, because let's face it, people like Erin and you guys or whatever all over, and so that the name of the game is let's create as many jobs as we can.   Bob: People who will be able to sign up as affiliates on the website and what will happen is, they'll be given basically their own code that'll go on the end of whitecanecoffee.com, it'll be like, let's say in Jeff's case it might be whitecanecoffee.com/Jeff. Now Jeff's going to sit there and say, hey, all my friends, guess what? White Cane Coffee, great stuff, give it a shot. Here's their email address, and it'll be that one there. Any sales that those make, Jeff would then get a commission on. Does that make sense?   Serena Gilbert: Yeah. I think that's awesome that you're building that, because a lot of the big company, like obviously Amazon, they have an affiliate program, target all kinds of places. I think it's great that you're seizing that opportunity to allow some of our audience to be able to have some fairly passive income coming in with being able to share their affiliate links and things like that. That's very unique to small businesses and I like that.   Bob: Yeah, because we all have our own networks. I have my friends who are on Facebook and on Twitter and everything like that. You have your friends and acquaintances and business contacts on yours and Jeff does. We all have these little things, that's why they call it the web. The more that web over it goes on each other, then guess what? That's when the company grows.   Erin: This way, we're not just helping our towns own disabled group, we're helping other towns and the State disabled groups.   Jeff Thompson: Oh, that's great. I like that idea. It gives me something, you know, I never wanted to do an Avon, Mary Kay or stuff like that, Tupperware. Now I can do White Cane Coffee.   Serena Gilbert: But just this morning, Jeff, you were giving me some makeup tips, so I don't know.   Bob: That's one of the things that people always, you know, because we've talked to a few people on the go, well, what's it going to cost us? It doesn't cost you anything. I mean that's the whole key. We'd like you to try our coffee, but if you don't drink coffee or whatever, that doesn't stop you from-   Erin: Getting the word out there.   Bob: And being involved.   Jeff Thompson: Awesome. I like it.   Serena Gilbert: I for one, when you guys get that up and running, please send us a link or message in that group chat that we have going, because I will definitely spread the word for you guys. I think that's awesome what you're doing.   Bob: Absolutely. We'll make sure you guys get the invite to it and that, and that's the goal, we want as many people as we can. If 10,000 people sign up as affiliates, fantastic. Because that's 10,000 people who are going to try to do something and that's what we want to see.   Jeff Thompson: I like it. Let's check it out, whitecanecofee.com, you go there, it says buy coffee. I clicked on buy coffee and I had eight choices. The first one was the package box and for $20, no tax, no shipping, it's delivered to your door. You can sample all the flavors, and the flavors come in, Colombian Supremo, Colombian Supremo Decaf, Breakfast Blend, Dark Roast, Doughnut Shop, French Roast, and my future favorite, High Octane. You have a choice of 16 ounces or 32 ounces. 16 ounces is going to run you $14.99, and 32 ounces is discounted a little bit at $27.99 and you can opt for a one month, three month, six month up to a 12 month subscription. That means it will be delivered to your door once a month and you don't have to lift a finger.   Jeff Thompson: An incentive to do the 12 months subscription is there's no shipping costs, thus allowing you to save $7 and 50 cents every month just by subscribing to a 12 month. That's quite a savings. At $14.99 I think it's very affordable. When you click on one of these flavors such as the High Octane, it'll take you to the page and they'll do a write up on what that flavor is all about, probably high octane I imagine, or the French Roast, or the Breakfast Blend. They'll all have a description there. Check out the about page, because that talk about Erin and her story and what the company's all about and it'll have some of this information then it just relayed to you. With that in mind, let's get back to the show.   Jeff Thompson: Erin, I want to go back to something, do you use an iPhone?   Erin: I use an iPad, it seems to work best for me.   Jeff Thompson: Oh, that's good. With voiceover.   Erin: Oh my gosh, yes.   Jeff Thompson: There you go.   Erin: So much voiceover.   Jeff Thompson: Yeah, we're all about tech and we love our voiceover stuff with the iPhones. Not knocking any of the android stuff, it's coming along.   Erin: Yeah, but Apple just seems to have, it has everything that you need for that.   Jeff Thompson: Yep, they're doing good, and so are you guys whitecanecoffee.com, everyone go check it out, go sign up, get the sample pack, you can figure it out which one you like best and then place your orders. It comes once a month, right to your doorstep, and if you order annually, they knock off the price of shipping so you can save a little money there. Erin, Bob, I want to thank you for taking the time to coming onto Job Insights and sharing with us your, well Erin's bad day innovation, her entrepreneurship and starting this company. Serena, do you have anything else you want to ask?   Serena Gilbert: Just do us a favor and tell our audience where they can find you on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram.   Erin: You can find us at White Cane Coffee on Facebook. You can find this on White Cane Coffee on Tumbler, weirdly enough.   Bob: We're setting up our Twitter and Instagram pages because Instagram and Facebook kind of work hand in hand together now, so when you advertise on one, you advertise on both. It's always funny, we always say, we need to get some of the big influencers on Instagram or something of that nature, one of the Kardashians. [inaudible] say, hey White Cane Coffee, and things would go insane at that point, but no, the goal is we're getting the word out and we're really happy that you guys contacted us and wanted to hear what we're doing.   Serena Gilbert: We absolutely love sharing what individuals in our community are doing, especially when it comes to employment and being able to live a little bit more independently, so we were happy to have you on.   Erin: We were absolutely ecstatic to be on.   Serena Gilbert: Do you guys have any questions or any additional information that you'd like to share?   Bob: We look forward to seeing your podcast, because you're on YouTube, is that correct?   Jeff Thompson: We're on YouTube, we're on Apple, you can download the Blind Abilities App right to your iPad and iPhone, any device like that. Pod Catchers just search for Blind Abilities, that's two words, Blind Abilities.   Serena Gilbert: He's so trained over there. Oh my goodness.   Bob: Sounds great, we look forward to that. Keep in touch with us, we like talking to people who are in the community, kind of how we find out what's going on. We hope that these conversations will go on for long time in the future.   Serena Gilbert: Of course.   Bob: It's funny, since we went on Facebook and started doing this, you guys just kind of caught our attention. It's like okay let's do this and-   Erin: Nothing ventured, nothing gained.   Bob: Absolutely.   Serena Gilbert: Next step is shark tank, right?   Bob: Oh God no. No, never Shark Tank. Venture capitalists are about making money, we're about making a difference and so that would probably never happen.   Jeff Thompson: I like that line. Put it on my tee shirt, or my coffee cup. There you go.   Serena Gilbert: I will definitely be checking out your guys' website because I do have coffee drinkers in my family, so I might even show it to my husband, because we have a Keurig, but we have the little thing where you can put the coffee beans or in it and trick it.   Jeff Thompson: Well, Serena, if you check out the website, they do have a coffee that has low caffeine.   Serena Gilbert: Even for you, that would be too much caffeine.   Bob: I'll tell you, if your husband likes that robust flavor, get the Colombian. If you like a coffee that's real smooth, you don't need milk or anything, look at the Dark Roast, it is so smooth. There's no bitterness to it.   Serena Gilbert: Oh Wow.   Jeff Thompson: Well I think I'm going to try the sample because I've always liked looking for that coffee that it tastes good and it does everything that you want it to do in the flavor without having to add the cream or this or the other thing. I just want that perfect blend.   Erin: Yeah. We hope you like it.   Bob: Yeah, get online after you're done with us, just go right to White Cane Coffee, you order tonight, they'll be out in the mail in the morning.   Serena Gilbert: Oh Wow. That's fast.   Jeff Thompson: There we go. The UPS or FedEx, one of those businesses know where you live, right?   Bob: Absolutely. They're here up quite a bit, picking up boxes.   Jeff Thompson: That's cool.   Bob: They're happy, it keeps them working I guess.   Serena Gilbert: Exactly.   Erin: [inaudible] when we first started, they were so confused.   Bob: They really were, but now they're just kind of used to it, they bring the truck up and get the boxes.   Jeff Thompson: Is the excitement gone? I mean, usually if the UPS truck pulls up in front of my place, I'm like, oh.   Serena Gilbert: What did I order?   Jeff Thompson: Yeah, I'm like rubbing my hands together.   Erin: I swear, the excitement for me is just constant because again, I'm branching out on new things, I'm meeting with people in the community, I'm on podcast now. There's always new things that we're doing in the company to sort of get the word out, so yeah, it's just like, okay, so one part of it may not be as flashy or exciting as it was, but there's a new part that's brand sparkling new and just like yeah.   Bob: Like in November, the Pennsylvania National Federation for the Blind has their convention in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Well now they're talking about having Erin come and speak at the convention.   Jeff Thompson: Oh, that's great.   Serena Gilbert: That's huge. That's awesome.   Bob: I wish she can make a difference. We really are looking forward to this, it's amazing. Everyone in this country drinks coffee, 90% of the people truly do have coffee first thing in the morning, that's what starts their day.   Jeff Thompson: Take notes Serena.   Erin: It's something that's so ingrained into our society, that coffee [inaudible] to help people with disabilities was just a no brainer. How many times have you heard in cartoons like, don't talk to me before I've had my coffee. I mean, when I was a little kid, on Christmas, we weren't allowed to open our presents until mum and dad had their coffee. I learned how to make coffee at age eight.   Bob: No coffee, no presents.   Erin: Just like brothers have already sorted out the gifts, specialized mugs in each hand they come downstairs, here you go, let's open presents.   Jeff Thompson: There you go, and now you can do it with White Cane Coffee.   Serena Gilbert: Exactly.   Bob: Exactly. It's fun for everyone. I like seeing Erin excited. I like seeing her brother's excited. I like seeing the other workers excited because when they come to work, they're excited to be useful and to have a purpose. You know, that when they're here that they're welcome here, and we adapt to their needs instead of like a lot of jobs you have to adapt to the company. We kind of do it the other way around, we adapt to each person individually. What are their needs, what's going to make their experience here working better for them because we found if they're happy, they're much more productive, and so it's a win-win on both sides   Erin: This may sound odd, but with some people's disabilities they have such strengths and others are like one of our workers, even though they are very autistic, they are also very hyper focused and are perfectionists, so we know every label is going to be on perfectly just like, alright, you do you man.   Jeff Thompson: There you go. I like that where you're creating opportunities and not limiting them but enhancing their opportunities by embracing their set of skills that they have.   Bob: Oh exactly.   Erin: Exactly, and once you have the right people around you, it really is, you can do almost anything with it.   Jeff Thompson: I like what you're doing Erin.   Bob: We don't sit around and say, oh, what can I do? It's more of what's stopping us from moving on, changing things and making things better for everyone involved, and coffee is that venue that is allowing us to do that.   Jeff Thompson: Oh, I tip my cup to you guys.   Serena Gilbert: We really appreciate your time.   Bob: Absolutely.   Jeff Thompson: Thanks Bob. Thanks Erin.   Bob: You all have a good evening.   Erin: It was great talking to you guys.   Jeff Thompson: All right.     [Music]  [Transition noise]  -When we share -What we see -Through each other's eyes...   [Multiple voices overlapping, in unison, to form a single sentence]   ...We can then begin to bridge the gap between the limited expectations, and the realities of Blind Abilities.   Jeff Thompson: For more podcasts with the blindness perspective: Check us out on the web at www.BlindAbilities.com On Twitter @BlindAbilities Download our app from the App store:  'Blind Abilities'; that's two words. Or send us an e-mail at: info@blindabilities.com Thanks for listening.  

Dr. Lonny Shavelson is the founder of Bay Area End of Life Options, a medical practice in Northern California devoted to educating about medical aid in dying and supporting patients and families through this process. Contact Bay Area End of Life Options Transcript Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Please note there is some content that is explicit in this episode. Dr. Bob: Dr. Lonny Shavelson is the founder of Bay Area End of Life Options, a medical practice in Northern California, devoted to educating medical providers about medical aid and dying, and supporting patients and families through this process. As you'll soon discover, Dr. Shavelson is an intelligent, articulation and passionate physician, who has a huge heart and is committed to providing excellent care to people dealing with terminal illnesses. He and I are bonded by a similar commitment. We also share a bond in that we were both emergency physicians in the past. We've seen the standard way people are cared for at the end of life, which is often not very pretty, and often not aligned with how they've lived their life. As you'll hear in this interview, Dr. Shavelson has experienced his own brush with death, which has created far more understanding and empathy than he could've imagined. I hope you find this discussion as informative and interesting as I did. Well, Lonny, I've been looking forward to this conversation with you for quite some time. I saw it coming up on my calendar. I was excited and woke up today really energized to have this conversation and be able to explore deeply, what it's like for you to be a physician that's in the same realm as I am, in support of medical aid and dying. Thank you for taking the time to speak to me and my listeners today. Dr. Shavelson: You're really welcome, I'm glad to be here. Dr. Bob: Yeah. So, just maybe give me a little bit of ... Give all of us a little bit of background, as to how you came to be the physician with Bay Area End of Life Options. What was your journey leading up to that, and what made you decide to venture into this? Dr. Shavelson: Let's see if I can condense this a little bit. When my interest in going into medicine in general, as happens with many people who go into medicine, comes from a family history of dealing with illness. I think many people in medicine if you ask them this question, why you went in, they'll start off with the, "I want to help people," answer. And if you dig a little bit deeper, you'll find there was some illness in the family in their prior history. So mine, very specifically, was my mother had Crohn's Disease. It's an inflammatory disease of the bowel. And because of that disease, imagine having cramps and diarrhea all of your life every day and having multiple surgeries on your bowel to try to accommodate it and bowel obstructions and all that. She was a pretty miserable person, and also in retrospect, severely depressed. So when I was starting at the age of about 14, I became not only aware of the fact that my mother was suicidal, but she enrolled me in pacts for her death. Part of the reason that I was guided toward medical school was because of the, my mother sort of wanting to know that I would be available, not only to help her in her illness but also to help her die. Dr. Bob: Wow. Dr. Shavelson: So we used to have conversations around the dinner table about my mother's dying. And I thought that was the normal way people grew up. I didn't, you know ... You know, if you grow up in a certain way, you assume that that's the way it is. You don't have any other experience of any other childhood to compare it with. So I thought discussions about death and dying were what people talked about during dinner. Dr. Bob: Not me, it wasn't happening at my dinner table, I'll tell you that much. Dr. Shavelson: Yeah, now I realize that [inaudible 00:03:48] doing that. We didn't have football and baseball on the TV. We had sort of philosophical conversations about death and dying, including suicide. Dr. Bob: Wow. Dr. Shavelson: So my mother- Dr. Bob: We had the Dick Van Dyke show, and the Andy Griffith Show. Dr. Shavelson: Well, we did some of that too. It falls short to what it was. So anyway, I grew up with death and dying discussions, including the potential for suicide as a rational way out of an illness. That was one thing that guided me, certainly into medicine, and when I got into medicine, I kind of left that behind for a long time, realizing it was pathological. It wasn't reasonable, especially in my mother's case. She was severely depressed I was her son. She had asked me to help her kill herself a number of times, and I had turned that down. But in the end, I knew that if she was very sick, and if that was what she did, and if it was more reasonable that I would then help her. And this was way before anything like medical aid in dying or what was then called physician-assisted suicide, was even thought to be legal at any time in the future. We were back in the 1970s by the time I went to medical school. Anyways, so that led up to ... You know, I got into my medical career as an emergency medicine doctor. Over time, I developed a dual career as a journalist and a photographer, as well as a medical doctor. So I worked about half time at each and actually moved fairly advanced in journalism with writing some books, with working with NPR as a reporter. So my journalism career took off in the same way that my medical career did, pretty much advancing over time. And to cut this to the chase, in 1996, I wanted to explore this question about what was then called physician-assisted suicide more deeply on an official level. The reason was that Jack Kevorkian was starting his nonsense, killing patients. And I always change that to killing patients who weren't his patients. And I thought that that was not a very good model of what we could look at for helping people die in the United States. But it really struck me that there was a significant underground, where ... You know, and I know, Bob, that before anything was legalized, if somebody were close to death and were really suffering, we would turn up morphine drips, we would increase medications in such a way that we knew we were participating in aid in dying. But with a wink and a nod to the families saying, "Give him morphine once an hour," type of thing. Knowing that would bring on the death. Because the patient was having severe suffering and was nearly unconscious and just needed to be helped along. That, and the presence of the ... I was going to say [inaudible 00:06:38] presence of the AIDS community. People were dying of Autoimmune deficiency disease. And they were really actively participating, but in the underground, of hoarding medication. So if you had AIDS, you could easily tap into the AIDS community and get thousands of tablets of morphine or methadone. It wasn't hard to do, because people were hoarding their medications with the intent of using it themselves. And if they end up not needing it, then they would pass it on to this sort of medical bank where medications were stored. That was the beginning of an interest I had in the pharmacology because they had the pharmacology to really try to do this right. Whereas individuals in their homes and in darkened bedrooms were talking with their family about wanting to die and then taking all of their, let's say their hospice medications. That often did not work. Anyways, this led to a book I wrote, called A Chosen Death, in 1996. And it was called the Dying Confront Assisted Suicide. It was about this underground ... I found families and doctors and nurses, and various people who were participating in a very significant underground. Where they were helping people, who requested aid in dying. They were doing it without charting a note; they were doing it without keeping any record of what happened. But I was able to write the story of five different families as they progressed through this. And in 1996, A Chosen Death came out. And the conclusion was very, very simple. When you look at what I call dark bedroom suicides when you look at those dark bedroom suicides, hidden, and nobody could talk about them, there were so many things wrong. One was that often because of inexperience; the wrong people were taking the wrong medications at the wrong times for the wrong reasons. And then taking medications that didn't work and having disasters follow. It just was a terrible scene, actually. And my conclusion was, this is going to go on like ... Comparison with abortion is very strong, is that there were back-alley abortions, and we were having dark bedroom suicides. What's wrong with the back alley abortions is that they were terrible, they were not supervised, they were not done well. And they would continue no matter what. What's wrong with the dark bedroom suicides was the same. So I made a very strong, I think argument in the book for legalization. Based on the fact that making this illegal was not working, was creating a disaster for families at the most important parts of their loved one's lives. That started, my political involvement for about three, four years I stayed very politically involved as the supreme court was writing its decision. In 1998, the Supreme Court made a decision where all nine justices decided this was not a constitutional right. But that the states had the right to do this. So in other words, there's nothing in the constitution that says that legal medical aid in dying should exist. But there's also nothing that prohibits the states from doing it. So one by one, I watched the states Oregon, Washington, Montana. It took 22 years more after I wrote the book A Chosen Death before we got this all legalized in California. And then, to bring it up to the present, when the law was legalized, I thought the way of starting it up was terrible. There was not enough primary education happening. Doctors were confused about what it was. The people who were looking at it were like, medical risk advisors and hospitals, and lawyers in hospitals trying to figure out their policy. And nobody was looking at the clinical practice of how this would work. So I decided to start up a practice with the intent of a couple of things. One was that I would be available to patients who could not find another doctor to do medical aid in dying with them. So if a patient had a desire for medical aid in dying or at least a question about it, and they approached all of their physicians, and the physicians said, "No," for a variety of reasons ... And Bob, I'd like to talk to you more about that in a bit. But if they couldn't find another doctor, then I would become their doctor and help them with the physician aid in dying. And that started up in day one of the new law, on June 16, 2016, and has been going ever since. And has grown so much, the request for services from my practice Bay Area End of Life Options has grown so significantly that I had to take on another doctor. So I now have Linda Spengler working with me, another physician. And then we took on a wonderful nurse, Thelia De Wolf, who is a hospice nurse. And we sort of borrowed her permanently and brought her into our practice. So we have a practice of three people now. To date, we have taken over 800 requests for medical aid in dying from different patients across the state of California. And for various reasons, we sort of brought that down by referring patients to other doctors or talking to their doctors about participating. There are lots of ways we'd windle that number down. So right now, about 240 patients have been in our practice, where we follow them for a request for medical aid in dying. And to be clear, when somebody calls us for medical aid in dying, it doesn't mean that we just give them medical aid in dying. There's a long, evaluative process. We work with them about their palliative care, we work with them with their hospices. We talk to them about ways they may die, and that this is just one of the ways that they may die or choose to die. And what that's resulted in now, we stay at the bedside when a patient takes the medication. It's the hallmark of their practice. Is that we don't feel that this should be the responsibility of the patient or the family to be taking medications at such a difficult and anxious day, the day that somebody is about to die. And everybody's worried about it. And when we walk in the door, the worry just goes out the window and they're able to do what they should be doing, which is pay attention to their loved one who's dying. And pay attention to themselves and how they're reacting, instead of being the ones who are mixing up medications and worrying if it's right, and worrying how it's going to go. And they're all alone doing this medical procedure, with the patient. We have been at every one of the bedside deaths. We'd been, I'm sorry, at the bedside of every one of our deaths, which are now 114 deaths at the bedside. The advantage of that is that we've been able to get really good at this. We get a sense of the social aspect; we get a sense of the family aspects. We get as a sense for the need of how much palliative care, and how to talk with the patient about alternatives. They don't have to do medical aid and dying. But if they really do decide that they want medical aid in dying, we are there for them. And that's the fundamental part of our practice. The other thing that having such experience does is it lets us travel the state a lot. We get requests from all over, and we travel quite a bit in order to help patients. And every time we go to a place where there's no access, where the patients ask all of their doctors, and they couldn't find anyone. We would then talk to the doctors in that community and usually find two or three. So a great example is we found that we were having to go very far up north for us to Paradise, California, near Chico. It's a three-hour drive. We get tired doing three-hour drives and coming back. So we started looking around and beating the bushes, and finding docs in Chico who might be open to it. And we now have a group of three doctors in Chico who are very open to starting their ... To adding to their own practices, their family practitioners. And they are now going to add to their practices medical aid in dying. And we are going to train them. And soon, we will not have to go to that part of the state again. And that's the wonderful part of this. Is that we don't want to have this practice of medical aid in dying become centralized to a small practice like ours. We want many, many doctors around the state to be doing this. And slowly we're seeing that happen, where there are areas of Northern California where we no longer go because we know the doctors up there who will. Dr. Bob: And that's phenomenal. Just being able to expand the access for people. And of course ... First of all, thank you for sharing that background, and kind of expressing in such great detail what your practice entails, how you support patients. Thank you for doing the work. I know that it's not easy. It can be extremely challenging, emotionally, and taxing in many ways. Because I'm also doing a very similar style of practice. As much as it's challenging and taxing, it's also very gratifying, right. I know that you feel the same way. That there are people who are suffering and struggling, and they've been shut down by many physicians, and they're just so grateful to find someone who's willing to not just support them in going through the process, but truly support them. And truly support their families, and make sure that they have all their questions answered, that they know all the options. And that the fear of this is, if not completely removed, certainly lessened. Dr. Shavelson: Yeah. You know the most common, repeated expression I hear is about what you just talked about. Is about fear. Commonly when somebody's dying, they've never done that before. And so they're quite afraid, what does it feel like when I get that close? I mean, you may know you have your cancer and all that. You know what it feels like. But when you're that close to dying, you don't quite know. It's really frightening as to where do you go, and how does it work, and how much suffering is entailed in the process of dying. So I'll sit down with a patient for an hour or two. And we will talk about what I call the how you die conversation. And the thing that, the response that's most common, is that they will tell me, this is the first time that I'm not afraid of how I may die. That nobody has explained that to them, and given them all of the options, including medical aid in dying. And really explain, this is how the process works. You may slip into a coma, and be quite comfortable. Or you may have an anginal agitation. Or you may be short of breath, and that can be treated symptomatically, but not completely. And we go through the how you may die conversation, and then every individual. And then they take a deep breath, and say, "My god, this is the first time since my diagnosis that I am not sitting here afraid of how I die. I know that I control it now." And that is the most moving, and tearful moment that I've ever experienced. Dr. Bob: Yeah, what a beautiful thing that is. And it's kind of crazy to think about, but I have that same experience over and over again. No one has told me, no one has talked to me about this. No one has actually talked to me about my death. All they talk about is how they can palliate me, and how they can comfort me and everything leading up to it. Dr. Shavelson: That's right. Dr. Bob: But even hospice folks. For some reason, there's just this reluctance. It's a fear on the part of the providers to actually engage in that conversation. Maybe it's their own fear; maybe they're afraid they're going to upset people. But it's just the opposite. Dr. Shavelson: Yeah. You know, I think Bob, that in a lot of ways, the entity of the legalization of medical aid in dying, has made it so, that before you offer somebody such a serious option, you have a real conversation with them. It's kind of almost built into the law, though I don't think that's necessarily the reason. The law really says that we have to explain all alternatives before we can accept a patient for medical aid in dying. And that's not what drives my conversations with the patients. What drives my conversations with he patients, is that they really should know what's up in their future, and how they're going to die. But that conversation about, how will dying happen, is oddly enough in legislature for the first time. And I think that's a healthy thing. There are many bad things about this law, but there are some good things about this law. And as it sounds like, your practice sounds very similar to mine, in that we spend time because we are not going to have this decision taken lightly, to take medications to end your life. We don't want that to be a casual decision. And therefore, we're going to have a really in-depth and truthful conversation with our patients. Dr. Bob: Right. And really, by setting up our practices the way that we have, it really facilitates that. I understand the limitations that a lot of providers have, a lot of physicians. They don't have the time, or it's very difficult to make the time to have the depth of conversation that is required to work through all of these different aspects of life and death. There have been a number of occasions where I have been asked to come and speak with someone who's requesting support through aid and dying. And after exploring all of the things that are leading up to it, and their reasoning, and what they're going through, they've actually made the decision to not request medical aid in dying. But to choose a different route, which in several cases, has meant bringing things into their life which will enhance the quality of their life. To try, some of the integrative therapies that we offer. They'll bring in a music therapist to do some legacy work. They'll bring in exercise, or physical therapist to provide them a little bit more human touch and connection. The conversations that sometimes occur unexpectedly have been so meaningful and profound. And then they may come back, in another month or two, or may not. But I think the opportunity to explore this option, for many people, has allowed them to look at things in a different light. And I think as you've experienced as well, sometimes people just want the option available to them just in case. They have a clearly terminal illness. They know what's coming in their future. But they're not in the point where they're ready to check out. But once they have this available to them, they have such a dramatic shift. And part of it is- Dr. Shavelson: It's a shift in thinking and feeling. They become comfortable to explore. I'm right with you, is that what happens sometimes when you tell them that medical aid in dying is available when I sit at the bedside and I hold somebody's hand, and say, "It's okay. We're here if you want that we will do that." And agree with them, which is the first time they've had agreement rather than battles about it. And I say, "It's okay if you want to do medical aid in dying, I'm here. I will do that if you get to the point where you're suffering enough." And that allows them to go back into treatment. I'll give you a very specific example we had just recently. We had a 58-year-old guy with lymphoma mass in his chest, who was quite uncomfortable from it, that turned out to be cancer in a lymphoma, which is quite treatable. But the treatment takes chemotherapy and radiation, and he had seen the path that some people with chemotherapy or therapy and radiation go. And it's really suffering and uncomfortable for some people. So he turned it down. He said, "Okay, I'm deciding not to have that treatment." They told him it was still treatable; they told him he could live with it. But he decided, no I'm not going to do all those nasty chemicals and the radiation. And he was sent home to hospice because that time he was getting sicker. And then it took him a month to get somebody to agree that they would help him in medical aid in dying, which was what he was asking for. So he was in a hospice that didn't participate, and the family found my practice on the web. I came down to see him. And he ... You know, we had the long conversation about how you die, and why he wanted to reject treatment. And he was just fundamentally scared of dying, and he wanted not to have these sort of dangerous, and difficult treatments on the way that would make him even more uncomfortable and give him more agony. He just didn't get it. So, I agreed. I said, "Okay. You can, if you want, have medical aid in dying. We will be there if you're suffering. And it's not there yet, but we will be there if you're suffering in any way, shape or form gets too bad that you want medical aid in dying. We will be there for you. And oddly enough, he turned back around, decided to go back and have chemotherapy and radiation. He knew that if the chemotherapy and radiation got so bad for him, he could turn to us and have medical aid in dying. He knew if he's dying eventually got so bad. So he went back, and he had chemotherapy and radiation, and lived for another year and a half as a result of that decision, always knowing that he had the ability, if things got so bad, to have medical aid in dying. That we would help him die. And then it took a year and a half, and then three months after that when he went back into hospice after the treatment stopped working it was another three months before he finally got to the point of saying, "I'm now uncomfortable enough." And we helped him to die probably about 18 months after his initial diagnosis when he was dying within weeks when we first met him. So these turnarounds can be very dramatic by just saying, "If things happen that are bad, we'll be there for you." We actually have two patients now on the transplant list. One for a bone marrow transplant, and one for a liver transplant, who are keeping us just sort of in the sideline. Dr. Bob: Yeah, in the wings. Dr. Shavelson: Where they're, in case ... The bone marrow transplant especially, because if a bone marrow transplant fails, it can fail spectacularly. So he's starting the bone marrow transplant only because he knows that if things really go down fast, if he gets very, very sick very quickly during the transplant process, that we will be there to help him die. And that's allowing him to move forward with the transplant. I think those are phenomenal stories. They're not the typical death that we do, but they happen often enough, that I can tell you taking away the fear of death allows you to really push forward with your life. Dr. Bob: And that happens from the very first conversation, right. And it's so profound; it's palpable. It's palpable when you walk ... And sometimes it happens from the first phone call when they know that you're going to be coming out to meet with them. There's already this sense of, oh my goodness; someone is on my side. They're willing to hear me. It's been ... There's been so many conversations that have been so touching. And it affects not just the individual, but their entire family. Dr. Shavelson: Of course. Dr. Bob: You know, one of the things that we talked about, and I think you wanted to come back to this as well, was why physicians say, "No." Why they're ... So there are two parts to this. One is, what's going on, why are physicians reluctant or unable to provide support? And then the other part of that, is what's the danger of having more physicians participating, who haven't gone through a training process, or who don't have the experience that people like us have. Dr. Shavelson: Yeah, you hit this on the nail. This is exactly the dilemma of how to deal with the access problem. So let me take that on if I can. The major problem we're having in California now is lack of access for patients who want medical aid in dying. There just aren't enough doctors participating, in order to do this. And I think when you look at the data, and everybody says well if you look at California in 2017, there are only 376 deaths from medical aid in dying. It's a tiny number relative to the total number of deaths. My answer to that is that's not because so few people want medical aid in dying. It's because so few people can access medical aid in dying. If you really wanted to do a survey, you have to find how many people have requested medical aid in dying, and then were turned down and just couldn't find anybody else. And I think that's a huge number. So it's a problem of supply, not demand. The demand for medical access in dying ... Medical aid in dying, I think is quite significant. The supply is not that high. So let's get into that. There is the most common reason that I hear that a doctor says to a patient. And these patients relay these conversations to us. They'll say, "I called my doctor up, and he said you know what, I understand your position, but I don't know how to do this. I have no experience in it. It's not that I'm morally opposed. In fact, if I knew I could do it, I'd be glad to help you. But there's been no training; there's been nothing that I know about it. In fact, you're my first patient asking for it." Is really common. And so, I don't know, and I'm not comfortable doing a procedure I've never been trained in. I get that comment from doctors, more commonly than I get that the doctor is morally opposed. So many, many, many patients tell me about their doctors who say, "Yeah, I understand what you want, but I can't do it because I've never been trained." Doctors, as a rule, like to do things they've been trained in and don't like to do things they haven't been trained in. And this law never incorporated anything about training. Bob and I can tell this audience, that you don't want to do this without knowing what you're doing. We've heard some strange stories about doctors using the wrong medicines because nobody told them what to do. And they sort of thought, well this is logical. I've got a hundred tablets of Ativan here; I'll just give them that. And that leads to a potential disaster because Ativan will not bring on death. It will bring on a deep sleep for a long time, but you will not die. So anyways, mistakes happen. The answer of that, from my point of view of practice, is that we have a policy where any doctor that says that I don't know how to do this, but I don't mind doing it, we'll call them up. And we'll say, "Can we help you through the process?" And we have done that with a number of doctors who said, "Wow, you do that?" And we don't charge a fee for it. We will just talk them through the process of what we've learned, and how this works. That could be the minimal amount of training that somebody needs. And at times, we'll do this thing where I become the attending physician for that patient. The doctor who was hesitant becomes the consulting physician, which is just the confirm diagnosis and prognosis and mental capacity. So that doctor basically sits there and watches while I help the patient to die, and watches how we do the paperwork. And watches how we write the prescriptions and what the pharmacology is. And then the next time, we'll do it again together, but we'll switch roles. And that doctor will be the attending and controlling physician who supervises the process, and I'll be the consulting physician. And so we switch roles, and we've done two cases together. And then after that, they're on their own. They've learned. And so, I have found that if one by one, we can train doctors who are interested in doing this, and then have the experience. I think you and I both know this is the average doctor in the United States probably has maybe five to 10 of their patients die in a year. So if you think about that, if maybe one out of every will ... Make a very high number, let's say one out of every 500 people who dies wants medical aid in dying, that means the average doctor in the United States who sees five to ten patients a year, will only have maybe one request for medical aid in dying every three to four years. And in my opinion, that's not enough to get good at what you're doing. If a doctor does one medical procedure every three or five years, they never ever have enough patients to really get good at it. And then that brings on the debate of who should be doing this. I can't say I have the answer for that. I think that patients who have a lot of ... I'm sorry, doctors who have a lot of patients who die, like oncologists, like maybe ALS doctors. They certainly would have enough patients die in a year, that they could get pretty good at doing this and they would know what they're doing. Mostly for me, I believe it should be hospice doctors. Because they're the doctors who see the most patients die of anybody in the country, and they're the best at seeing people die. They have access to nursing care; they have access to home visits, which are crucial. Because these patients are sick, and they can't get to their doctor's office for help. So I actually think this should be incorporated into the hospice model as one of the things that happens if you go into hospice you can get wonderful palliative care. You can get wonderful social workers, and chaplains. And if you want medical aid in dying, that's just one of the things that hospices offer. That hospice offers. And that's the ideal. We now have, Bob you've got a hospice in San Diego, I know, where there's a doctor who's the attending physician. There's your medical practice which models that. And I know that we have three hospices up here, where the hospice just if they get a request for medical aid in dying, they take care of it. It's part of hospice care. So that's kind of where I go. I actually think, in some ways, it should be a specialty care. Because it's much more complicated than most doctors think it is. It's not as simple as writing a prescription, and you're done. Dr. Bob: Right. And that's been my concern. And I've heard about some stories ... And at the beginning of our experience, we discovered some things that we weren't aware of. It was a learning process, and we discovered that different counties, medical examiners approach medical aid in dying differently. Certainly, at the beginning, they were unfamiliar with it. And there were some situations that occurred in patients' homes that were very traumatic for families when the police showed up at 2:00 am in the morning and asked a whole bunch of questions because they just weren't prepared and familiar. Different counties have different rules regarding the involvement of the medical examiner. Different hospices have different approaches. There are so many nuances that, if you're just doing this once in a while, you may actually be doing the patient and family a great disservice, if you're not aware of these nuances. So I think as you've been doing, we've also been trying to guide and train some of the physicians who've expressed a willingness. One of the things that I love is when I have a patient who tells me ... Who comes to me, because they want this to be done properly. And they know that they can trust us, and will get very intimately involved and provide a high level of support throughout the process. And they tell me that they don't know if their doctor's willing to be the consulting physician. Or to be involved in any way. They're not even comfortable necessarily approaching it. And we've had, as I'm sure you've done, we've had the opportunity to call and speak with these physicians. And help them understand more about the process. Help them understand what involved to be the attending physician, what it would involve to be the consulting physician, and to offer that support and to try to, I guess in a sense, convert. Because these are people, who may be open to it. They're not morally opposed; they don't have a religious opposition. They just aren't familiar. Dr. Shavelson: That's right, that's right. And I think convert is the right word. Dr. Bob: I think that's exciting for me when I get to speak to another physician and help them understand what the process is, and then become a resource for them, whether they're willing to take it on and receive guidance and training and make this a part of their practice. Or just know that there's a resource, there's someone else to reach out to when somebody does bring up this possibility to them. Dr. Shavelson: Right. You know, I think guys like me and you, we become ambassadors. Dr. Bob: Exactly. Dr. Shavelson: And that's a significant part of my practice, and I love it. The things that, to move this to a very positive note if I may. When I started, it was disastrous. There was just an overwhelming need, and a lack of response because nobody knew what they were doing. When you look at the beginning of when this started up, it was hospices we're against, and everybody I talked to said we don't know how to do this. So we don't agree with it. And over time, what's wonderful to watch, is how patients have been the leading force in making this expand and work and get better every single year. And you see what I've seen with our hospices in Northern California. Is as they've started getting patient requests, they couldn't just keep saying, "No." Hospices are fundamentally a loving and caring and responsive organization. And with so many patients asking for help with medical aid in dying or the way I phrase it better, to consider medical aid in dying, the hospices had to do something. And what we see now, is that something like 60 to 80 percent of the hospices in my area have now come over and say, "Yes, of course, we respond to requests from medical aid and dying. We'll do referrals." Or we'll be the consulting doctors. Or we'll refer to your practice if we can't find that their regular doctors do that. And so I have watched, number one, in terms of hospice care over two years, watched most of the hospices completely change their attitude, because of patients' desires and the need of the hospice to respond to the patient's autonomy requests in making their own decisions. And that's been very gratifying to watch. As well geographically, I've now seen that there are areas of the state that we no longer have to go to in Northern California, because they have enough doctors in that area, and doctors that we know that if we get a call from Chico, we now say, "Oh, don't use us. Call Doctor so-and-so. He's in your area; he can be close to you. You'll probably even know him." And most of the time, they actually know the doc. Dr. Bob: Because smaller communities than ... Yeah. Dr. Shavelson: Exactly. Exactly. So I'm gratified by the amount of progress we've made, and I'm shocked by how much more there is still to go. Dr. Bob: Yeah. And you are a phenomenal ambassador. Every time I hear you speak, and it's been several times now in various capacities, I'm inspired, I'm grateful that I get to be part of this world, alongside people like you. Dr. Shavelson: Thank you. Dr. Bob: No, absolutely. And Lonny, you actually not long ago went through your own medical challenge. And I'd be interested to know ... I'd like you to share a little bit about that. I know you indicated that you'd be willing to do that. And I'm also interested in how the awareness that this was potentially, if it ever came to that, available to you. How that impacted you. Did you see it from a different perspective? Having been going through your own cancer journey? Dr. Shavelson: Yeah, well. So just a year ago, I'm actually one year out of the end of my treatment now. So I had a cancer development. An [inaudible 00:40:33] cancer that this thing was located at the back of my tongue, not where I felt it. I found it because I had a swollen gland in my neck, and realized that it was unusual to have that gland in that space, even though it was tiny. So I got it quite early because I went immediately to the hospital. And being a doc, I can order up my own tests. Silly of me, but that's the way I work. Walked in, and had the interventional radiologist that I knew to do a biopsy, get a piece of this thing. And it turned out to be a squeamish cell cancer that was metastasis from my tongue. So I had a bunch of lymph nodes involved, and a primary cancer in my tongue. And took a rather, I went down to Stanford and had a rather hellish treatment, to put it mildly. I don't want to scare people away from good treatment, but we did a significant amount of radiation and chemotherapy to knock this thing down. And it did, it worked. But during the six months of treatment, I became quite delusional, paranoid. I just got very, very, very sick. It was an awful experience. Nonetheless, at the end of that experience and a very slow recovery. It's surprising how long it takes to recover from that. I'm now well, and back to full speed and have a couple of long-term side effects from the chemotherapy, like a dry mouth and some toe numbness. But otherwise, I'm healthy and full strength and all that. And it's now a year and a half after full diagnosis. And a year after the end of the last radiation treatment. So how did that affect me? One, it scared the shit out of me. It made me feel vulnerable. I had been ... This was diagnosed when I was 65 years old, thank god for Medicare. It was two months after I crossed the Medicare threshold. I was covered for all of this; it would've been a disaster even with my good health insurance. But it took away my feeling of having had a life of lack of fear. Just felt like things were going well in my life always. And suddenly it became, I'm the cancer patient. So the vulnerability persists. And the feeling that bad news can happen at any time. You know, it's not like I didn't know that. I've been a ... I was an emergency doctor for 30 years before I started that as I think you were, Bob. We don't have to be taught that bad things can happen quickly. But they hadn't happened to me, and I was feeling pretty good. And the feeling of vulnerability persists. The feeling of medical aid in dying being available, well I've been a pill hoarder for the potentiality for this since I was probably 22. Again, I grew up in a family that confronted death very early, and we all had our hoard of pills in case anything would happen. So there's no news in that for me. I like the idea that it's freely available, and that I won't have to do it myself. But in terms of empathy, I think I gained a whole lot about being with patients and kind of knowing the information they want. And how truthful and calm the information has to be delivered, and it's not like I didn't know a lot of this beforehand. I kind of like to think I was a fairly empathetic doctor before this. But the tone is different. And I let all my patients know that I just came through this cancer experience. It creates this different bond with us. And I think that's important. It's a new tool. For me to talk to them from a patient perspective, as well as from their perspective, from the doctor perspective. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I can just see that being so incredibly valuable, and such a point of connection with the patients. Because that's what they want. I think in many cases, that's what patients, that's what people had been lacking, and are looking for in the relationship with a healthcare provider. Is just this sense of connection and understanding. And so knowing that you went through an experience, where you stared at your mortality and feared for what the outcome was going to be, suffered through the treatments. I think that was very comforting and probably endearing. Having lost both my parents in a short time a few years ago to cancer, gave me a different degree in insight and empathy to what family members are going through. Which has really been a gift. But having not faced the illness from a personal perspective, I think that adds something to your toolbox. There's no replacement for that. There's no way to substitute for that. I know that given the choice, you probably wouldn't' have chosen it, to go through that. But as it turns out, it's probably quite a gift for you. Dr. Shavelson: Yeah. You know, the other part of that interestingly, and I haven't thought this through as I probably should, is that the level of suffering that I went through was pretty intense. It wasn't a fun treatment, to put it mildly. But I had the very, very high rate ... there was an 85 percent chance of cure with this particular cancer that I had. So I had in my mind at least through the delusions that I was having in the really bad side effects of the chemotherapy hit my mind very badly. But even at all times, I knew that I was going to have a continued life. An 85 percent chance was pretty high. So there was a real motivation to go through that suffering. That, I want to make very, very clear. When people use the term assisted suicide, let me differentiate assisted suicide from physician aid in dying. Had I chosen during my treatment when the suffering was worse, was most severe, to do a medical aid in dying, it would've been a suicide. And the reason is because I consider a suicide to be when you end your life and you can still have the potential to live. So when somebody has the potential to keep living, and then chooses and decides to end their life, that's a suicide. However, when patients are having the kind of suffering that I was having, and they know that that's the route to dying. That they're close to death. And so they're having the same symptoms that I was having, severe pain. My pain was so severe that I was on a really high dose of opiates. I couldn't swallow, it was a terrible thing. My throat was closing up; it was hard to breathe. And yet I knew that I could live if I could just get through it. The patients who are at the end of their lives, having symptoms like that, severe pain, hard to breathe. Existential angst. Those patients don't know what I knew, which is that I could go on and live. They know that they're about to die. And so the value of going through the suffering is diminished for them. There is no value because their death is imminent. Those are not suicides. Those are decisions about how they're going to die, because they will die soon, no matter how they do it. That's a very different circumstance. I've come to understand that there's a level of suffering you endure if you know the outcome is good. That's very different than the level of suffering you endure if you know the outcome is not good. And those are really different things. Dr. Bob: And that's a fascinating conversation. And actually, I think I'd like to have a follow-up call podcast with you. Because this is something, I don't think we can cover in the next few minutes that we have. But those nuances, those situations where a person could actually go on living if they make certain choices. That they may not be willing to make, because they understand the impact on the quality of life. And I speak predominately of neurological conditions. Circumstances where people are experiencing dramatic suffering. The actual timing and course of their illness may not be quite as clear as with an aggressive cancer. But the suffering is different. Those are the cases that really require so much exploration, and a lot of time and ... They're difficult. Nothing simple about them. Dr. Shavelson: Yeah, you're talking probably mostly about the neurodegenerative diseases. ALS, multiple sclerosis, multiple strokes. Those are ... Those neurologic diseases, when I walk into any other room for those patients, I take a really deep breath, because they are not easy. And you know you're going to have to spend a lot of time with that patient, trying to figure out what's going on. What's the prognosis. Cancer's easy. Neurologic diseases are hard. Dr. Bob: And those people are looking for support, they're looking for resolution. And a lot of times, it's really ... It's not because they are trying to immediately get out of their suffering and their struggle. They know that things will change dramatically. And they're also always terrified that they will lose the opportunity if they take too long. And I think that's not just within our logic conditions. But there are so many nuances to this. I think I've taken enough of your day. This has been fascinating. It's really wonderful to listen. You're so articulation and obviously passionate about this because you know it's the right thing. But you're also responsible. You're taking a very responsible approach to it, recognizing that it's a delicate issue. It's a controversial issue. We know what our stance is, we would never want to try to force our position on anybody else. But I really, I feel a real kinship, and there's a clearer I don't know, a brotherhood of willingness to help people reduce their suffering even if it's not the easy thing to do. Dr. Shavelson: Yeah, and it's wonderful to have you as a colleague, much appreciated. Dr. Bob: Well Lonny, thank you. This has been wonderful. I'm looking forward to listening to it again, and I'm sure that there's a lot of people who will get some great value out of listening to it as well. Keep up the great work, and we'll be back in touch soon. Dr. Shavelson: Thanks, Bob. Keep doing this.  

Cathy Spatuzzi is a yoga and fitness instructor who works with Integrated MD Care. She shares how she helps patients and her views on why she doesn't fear death and, instead, makes sure she is living in every moment.   Books on End of Life Being Mortal, Atul Gawande Knocking on Heaven's Door, Katy Butler Find more in this blog post, here. Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text.  We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Transcript Dr. Bob: Hello and welcome to A Life and Death Conversation. I'm here today with a good friend and a really valued member of my Integrated MD Care team Cathy Spatuzzi. I'm very excited to introduce you to Cathy and to hear some of her insights. Cathy and I have known each other for a bit, and we've shared some incredible experiences with our patients. We're going to touch on some of those, let you know what Cathy does and how she does it because I think she's really quite an expert in her field and I know that she loves what she does. So, Cathy, thank you for being here and joining us. Cathy Spatuzzi: Hello, Dr. Bob. Thank you for having me. Dr. Bob: Yeah, my pleasure. It's great to see you. I'll share that trying something new, our podcasts, the ones that I've done previously have all been recorded on the phone. Today Cathy is in the office, and we're doing it together. It's really nice to be able to look at her in the eyes as we do this. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah, I agree, face-to-face is very nice. Dr. Bob: Yeah. So Cathy is … her title is yoga and fitness instructor. I know that there's probably a lot of yoga and fitness instructors out there who work in various capacities but that doesn't really begin to explain quite what Cathy does because I've seen her in action and I've seen the results of her work. It's nothing short of magical; I have to say. Cathy goes in and works with some of our sickest and most frail patients. She works with people who have dementia. She works with people of all ages and abilities. They don't even know they're exercising. They actually just think they're playing games and meeting a really cool, fun, person. So Cathy, can you just share a little bit about how that happens, what you do, how you approach your patients and just share a little bit about how that magic happens? Cathy Spatuzzi: Sure. So I got my yoga instructor certificate, and I started teaching seniors. I took an extra class in teaching seniors, and I really loved it. Then I met Dr. Bob, and I've always been a physical exercising person myself, and so I've made up my own little program where I go into a person's home, and we have a whole hour of exercise. So we do physical weights, and whatever that person needs at the time, that's how I meet their needs. So we do dancing, we do marching. I bring some music sometimes. I have little balls that we do exercise with. They're bright and colorful. We play games with the balls. I also have just blown up regular balloons, and we hit the balloon back and forth and play a game that way. A lot of people that used to do tennis or volleyball, they remember that, and their muscles and cells remember that and they really get a lot of fun exercise just hitting the balloon back and forth. They tell me lovely stories. Most of my people are 80 to 90, some are a 100 years old, and they tell me fabulous stories. They all have a very positive attitude in life. Dr. Bob: I've met with people, I've been there after you've been with them and it really is pretty dramatic. A lot of our patients, because a lot of times they don't feel well, they don't have a lot of energy, they're dealing with pain, they're dealing with other challenges, and exercise is not something that they necessarily prioritize or look forward to, but that's not the case with you. They obviously don't feel like they're doing exercise. They don't feel like they're working. There's something else. There's another piece that obviously you're bringing to it, which, to me, it feels like you're just really connecting with them very deeply and appreciating them as human beings, and the exercise just happens as on the side. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes, I agree. I don't think of it as exercise myself. I go in, and I have fun, yes, and I connect with that person one-on-one, find out what they like, what else do they like, then I bring that in with them. Dr. Bob: We've shared a couple of patients that had had some pretty remarkable experiences, people who were not expected to live more than a month or two who through combined efforts have gone on to live for a couple years, people who were not walking who are now walking half a mile to a mile without difficulty. Can you share maybe a little bit about what that's like for you to be part of that? Cathy Spatuzzi: It's a gift. I love all my clients, but to work one-on-one and to see a person that was maybe almost on their deathbed to come back and is living and they want to have a life. One of my sayings is motion lotion. If you don't move your body, you're going to get stiff, and you're not going to feel like moving so let's just keep moving. Some of my other seniors that are more fit, that's what they say, you have to keep moving, you have to keep moving, you have to keep moving. So I keep them moving. Dr. Bob: You keep on moving, and you keep it fun. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah. Well, you have to have fun in life, so why not bring it to your work? Dr. Bob: Yup, I agree 100%. So this is A Life and Death Conversation, and part of what we're trying to do is give people just a look into how we can have an easier time talking about topics that can be difficult: death, illness, debility. So as an example, we are doing that there. We're talking about things that might not come up in normal conversation. I, as you know, go right to the point. I don't mince words. I don't hold back a whole lot. I just want to ask you and get some of your personal perspectives on some of these things, if that's okay. Cathy Spatuzzi: Sure. Dr. Bob: All right. Tell me, do you have … and this is a question I ask all my guests. Are you afraid of dying? Cathy Spatuzzi: No, I'm not afraid of dying. Dr. Bob: You're not afraid of dying. Cathy Spatuzzi: No. Dr. Bob: Well, why? Can you share why you're not afraid of dying? Cathy Spatuzzi: My maternal grandmother always talked to me about death. Dr. Bob: Really? Cathy Spatuzzi: It wasn't morbid. It wasn't like, "Oh, I …" I don't know, she just always talked about it. It wasn't something under the covers. Dr. Bob: Just kept in awareness of it in the home? Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah, like when somebody died, we'd talk about it, or when- Dr. Bob: Okay, how healthy. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes, uh-huh (affirmative), and so I think I've just adopted her attitude and calmness about it. For me, thinking about dying, I think about living. So I'm alive. I can walk and talk, and do all these beautiful things, but let's be present doing it. If you're just walking through life in a fog, then you're not living, but when you think about you're going to die, maybe that's a point where you're going to wake up and start being present in your life. Dr. Bob: Do you feel like thinking about dying, talking about dying is responsible for you having a greater awareness of and maybe gratitude for life? Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes. I think I have gratitude every night before I go to bed. Dr. Bob: I guess, not being dead is a part of that, right? Cathy Spatuzzi: Right. Driving around and you see the beautiful clouds. You might see an airplane. Let's take each moment for today because maybe you will die tomorrow. Let's be grateful for what we have today, not think about what if, what if, what if it's going to happen. I pray that I have a beautiful day and then I have a beautiful meal and then I go to sleep and die. Not tomorrow. Dr. Bob: Not tonight, yeah. Cathy Spatuzzi: Not tomorrow. I got- Dr. Bob: Because I know you have some things to do this weekend. I know you have some plans. Cathy Spatuzzi: I know, yeah. I have plenty more years ahead of me, but that's what I've always thought about, nice and peaceful. Dr. Bob: Beautiful. Interesting. We both are spending time now with people who believe that they may not have a lot of time left, some of them because they're elderly and some of them because they have a terminal illness, and in some of those conversations, I hear people talking about how their time is so limited. Occasionally, they get into this pattern of feeling bad about it, and I wouldn't say necessarily feeling sorry for themselves, but focusing on how their life is going to be shortened and they're aware of that. I always accept that. I never try to convince them to think differently. That's their thought, and I would never judge that, but what I'm aware of is that there's no guarantee for any of us. I may have a patient who has a prognosis, a life expectancy of three or four weeks. There's a lot of people who are going to die unexpectedly before that person dies. We may be one of them. We have no guarantees, and so focusing on what we have today like you're talking about like you're suggesting being grateful for the fact that we are alive and that most of what's going on in our life is good, may not be perfect. Jon Kabat-Zinn, the creator of the mindfulness-based stress reduction program, had a phrase that I love and I repeated often. It's, "As long as you're breathing, there's more right with you than wrong with you." Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes, I agree. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Cathy Spatuzzi: That's beautiful. Dr. Bob: Sometimes if somebody is lamenting about the pain that they're having, the limitations that they're having, just remembering how many trillions of things are happening simultaneously in our body, the chemical process, the cellular division, the fact that everything is working as it's designed to, except for a few things, which could be significant things, it's still a magical design. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah, the body is an amazing piece of work. Dr. Bob: Yeah, and you're doing a great job of keeping it amazing. Cathy Spatuzzi: Thank you. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Cathy Spatuzzi: I love working with the clients, yeah. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Some of our clients die, right? Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes, they do. Dr. Bob: Yeah, they do. How do you deal with that? Cathy Spatuzzi: It's difficult at first. Dr. Bob: Because you spend more time with them even than I do. You're with them sometimes two or three times a week and getting very close, getting very connected with them. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes. When they die, going into this though, I mean that's part of life, and I knew that but when they die, I go into myself and remember all the good times that we had together, but then that also brings up for me my own experience with my own family and dying. So then it's almost like I grieve all of them: my parents, my grandparents, a friend all over again, which isn't a bad thing. Yes, it's sad and, yes, I cry, but there's another layer of deepening, of healing, of comfort for me. Dr. Bob: So when a patient dies, when somebody who you've been working with a client, it sounds like you're allowing that experience to create another layer of connection with other people who have gone before them, with your family. It allows you to grieve all of death, all of the people who have gone. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes, I grieve all of the people that have died that I know and then I think about where did they go … all the same, questions come up for me. Where did they go? Where does the spirit go? Where does the soul go? Where does the brain …? I've read a lot of books, and I still don't have any answers. Dr. Bob: Oh, darn it. I was hoping that you were going to give me the answer now. Cathy Spatuzzi: No, I don't have any answers, and that's okay. I'm comfortable with that. Dr. Bob: So you don't know but what do you think? Where do you think … what's your thought about what happens after we die? Cathy Spatuzzi: Well, I believe that the physical body dies. I would like to believe that there is an after realm, rather you call it heaven or reincarnation. Those are the things I don't know, but it would be nice to see some people again that have gone before me. Dr. Bob: So you're not positive. Cathy Spatuzzi: No, I'm not positive. Dr. Bob: What percentage of certainty are you that there's something else? Cathy Spatuzzi: 50/50. Dr. Bob: 50/50. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah, and I'm comfortable with that. It's because I've thought about it so much. Dr. Bob: Well, if there is … Oh, that's nice. You're like right on the 50-yard line there. So if there is something else, then that's great, and we'll be hopefully very pleased to find out, and if there isn't, well then we will never know, right? Cathy Spatuzzi: Right. I've asked some of my relatives that were dying. I said, "Now, when you get wherever you're going, wherever that is, give me a sign." Dr. Bob: And? Cathy Spatuzzi: I haven't gotten anything. Dr. Bob: You haven't gotten anything. I have. I think I've shared that, my dragonfly connection. Cathy Spatuzzi: I did have a feeling, but not necessarily like a physical sign, like a picture or something, but I've had feelings of my grandmother touching my hand. I knew it was her. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Cathy Spatuzzi: I knew it was her. Dr. Bob: Okay. So then- Cathy Spatuzzi: So maybe yeah. Dr. Bob: Yeah, I'll go with that. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Dr. Bob: Cool. It's interesting because there are … I hear that people are very uncomfortable talking about death. I hear that all the time. People don't want to talk about it. They want to ignore it, pretend it's never going to happen. I don't have that experience with people, and maybe it's just because I draw it out. But in the conversations that I or maybe people who … Maybe those people like walk away when they see me coming; I don't know. But I actually find that people want to talk about it and given the opportunity, they're drawn to the conversation. It's interesting because I find some people want to talk about a bad experience and maybe it's because I'm a physician and I make it safe, but they want to share how traumatic this was and complain … not complain, but just put it out there and it seems like it's little cathartic when they talk about how difficult an experience was. Then there's another group of people who were really transformed by a beautiful experience around death and dying of a friend or a loved one, and they also want … it's cathartic for those people as well. I find it really fascinating how much people want to have this conversation when it's brought up in a way that's safe, and someone clearly wants to hear what they have to say, what their thoughts are. Cathy Spatuzzi: I have found that some people just need somebody else to listen. They haven't found that person, and maybe that's you. Dr. Bob: Yeah, maybe, maybe. I'll tell you that sometimes my wife, Sandy, it gets a little overwhelming for her because she's with me and we'll be either at dinner, we'll be at a party, and I start talking to somebody and she goes away and comes back, and we're deep into this conversation about how their mother passed away or the complexities of certain situations. I just find that that's sort of a natural thing that's happening. Cathy Spatuzzi: You have a gift. Dr. Bob: I don't know it's a gift, but it's an interesting phenomenon, so. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah. Dr. Bob: Do you have any experiences that were either challenging or really beautiful that you want to share? Cathy Spatuzzi: My maternal grandmother, Jenny, she was 80 years old. She fell and broke her hip. I was her guardian because my mother had already passed away years ago, which is a whole another story. But I was in the nursing home room right beside my grandmother, and she was dying. I could see her coming in and out of what I call crossing the veil. She wasn't exactly sleeping, but she was testing the veil and then coming back. She'd come back, and she'd say, "Oh, Cathy, you're here," and then we would talk and I was able to tell her how grateful I was for all the time that I got to spend with her closely after my mother died. She said, "Oh, I want to die," and I said, "Okay, I don't want you to suffer. It's okay." She said, "But I don't want to leave you." I said, "Grandma, it's okay. I'm going to be fine." Then the next day she died. So, and I've heard this similar kind of story from several other people and the person that's dying just needs permission. Dr. Bob: But you weren't there when she actually died? Cathy Spatuzzi: No, I wasn't in the room when she died. I was there the day before. Sometimes they don't want to die with you in the room. Dr. Bob: Yup, that happens frequently. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes, yes. Dr. Bob: Which is hard, which is a challenge because you don't want to leave. A lot of times people don't want to leave. They feel like they're supposed to be there through the very end, to the last breath, and it's hard to know what's happening. So there are times when someone does step away, they go to the bathroom, they run out to get something for somebody, and they slip away, and that's the way it's meant to be. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes, I agree. Dr. Bob: Yeah. When you describe … what was the word you used? Cathy Spatuzzi: Crossing the veil or testing, testing the veil. Dr. Bob: Crossing the veil. Testing the veil. Can you share a bit more about that? What made you believe that she was testing the veil and not just like napping or falling asleep briefly? Cathy Spatuzzi: I can't describe it any other way, but I could feel her body, her spirit, not really her physical body, but her spirit, her soul, and I didn't … I could see something but it's kind of this feel-see type of a thing, and I knew she wasn't exactly sleeping because I could feel it going out, this energy, and then coming back in. When she would come back in, you would see her body be more alert and then she'd open her eyes and then we'd talk a little bit and then … I could tell if she was sleeping versus doing this testing. Dr. Bob: Fascinating. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Cathy Spatuzzi: It was great. Dr. Bob: That's great, yeah. I hear about, read about and I've seen people who I believe are in that place. Testing the veil, I haven't heard that description, but I like it. I truly believe that as people get closer to death, they're in two worlds, right? Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes. Dr. Bob: They cross. They slip back and forth. So if we really believe that, then it certainly gives us a little bit more comfort and assurance that there is something on the other side because that's what they're testing, that's what they're exploring. I've seen people in the last moments or hours of life reaching out, talking about people who they see, loved ones, and I know that a lot of people would write that off as hallucinations, as due to medications. They're not really there. But I completely believe that they are making a connection with the spirit world and those who they are going to be reunited with on the other side. I can't prove it. I know that there are books written about it, a number of good books, and we can put some of those resources on the website to share, but I implore people, I welcome you to read some of these things because it really does provide quite a bit of comfort. If you're uncertain or you're worried about everything just ending or what might happen after death, reading about the experiences of people who fully believe that they were on the other side and came back to be able to tell about it can be very reassuring. Cathy Spatuzzi: Even the people that have been in terrible car accidents and then they've been rushed into the surgical room, and they have a story that they're up on the ceiling watching their body being operated on and then after that, they come back in, and they come and tell their story. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Cathy Spatuzzi: So, yes, it seems like a very pleasant place. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah, but I guess- Dr. Bob: No, I don't think I have ever heard anybody come back and say, "Wow, that was really bad. I mean that was like fire and brimstone, and I don't want to go there." Of course, as a physician, I'm supposed to be very scientifically minded. I know there's a lot of cynics, a lot of skeptics, and everyone is welcome to their own beliefs and opinions. I choose to believe that there is something beautiful waiting for us and you have the ability; we have the ability to access it on this side. I do believe that the walls become more permeable, the closer we get to death. I feel that comforts me and apparently, you've had experiences where you feel the same. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes. Yes. Dr. Bob: Yeah. So I just want to ask one last question before we wrap it up. What's most important to you in life? Because this is life and death. We talked about death. We've also talked about the way that you enhance people's lives, which is incredible. But for you personally, what is the most important thing for you in life that makes life really beautiful for you? Cathy Spatuzzi: Being present as best I can in the moment and being kind to myself and being kind to others. Dr. Bob: That's a good way to be, and you are doing that incredibly well. Cathy Spatuzzi: Thank you, Dr. Bob. It's a pleasure. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Thank you for being with us. I look forward to having you back on another time if you're willing? Cathy Spatuzzi: Sure, yeah. Thanks for inviting me. Dr. Bob: All right, you have a good day. Thanks, everybody for tuning in. Cathy Spatuzzi: Bye. Dr. Bob: Bye-bye.

The Teal Chair, a film that was nominated for the Future Filmmakers Award this year at Sun Valley Film Festival was the brainchild of Kimberly Ouwehand. Find out why the hospice community outreach coordinator wanted to create this film and how its impacted her life and others. Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Contact Treasure Valley Hospice website Transcript Dr. Bob: Kimberly Ouwehand is a passionate Community Outreach Coordinator for Treasure Valley Hospice in Nampa, Idaho. When Kimberly got the inspiration to videotape people answering the question, "If you knew you had a limited time to live, what would you do," amazing things started to happen. She collaborated with a local group of high school students, and what came out of it is an extraordinary documentary called The Teal Chair. The film was nominated for the Future Filmmakers Award at the 2018 Sun Valley Film Festival. In this podcast, Kimberly shares how the film came about and how its creation has impacted her life and the lives of many others in her community. I hope you enjoy it. Share with me, the listeners, a little bit about your journey, your working in hospice, and how long have you been part of hospice? How did you get into hospice, and kind of where are you in that, in the course of your career? Kimberly Ouwehand: Well, I started out in clinical. I worked in internal medicine for about 10 years, 10 to 12 years, and kind of fell into hospice, because, and it's kind of a different animal, because you're in people's homes, and you're dealing more with people than you are the clinical side of things, and so I've been doing hospice for about seven years now- Dr. Bob: Okay, and in what capacity? Kimberly Ouwehand: I love it. I do outreach, and communication, and education, so kind of I'm a marketer for it, but I do a lot of hands-on and outreach. Dr. Bob: Got it. Kimberly Ouwehand: A lot of education. Dr. Bob: I think probably a lot of people don't realize ... Well, a lot of people don't realize a lot of things about hospice, right, but- Kimberly Ouwehand: Yeah, that's for sure. Dr. Bob: When they hear "marketer," they probably don't understand how much that involves being with families, and patients, and kind of in the thick of things, because I know I've been associated with hospice for a while now, and sometimes the marketers develop such incredible relationships, because they're the first point of contact for a lot of these folks and people who are in pretty somewhat desperate situations or very vulnerable. It's a really important role to be playing, don't you think? Kimberly Ouwehand: I do. I wish sometimes we didn't ... I mean, I hate to use the word "marketer," because traditionally it's pushing sales and things like that. I find myself making connections and building, like you said, building relationships so that people know, like, and trust you, and they'll call you whenever there's question, and they don't understand something. I feel like my reputation should be built on trust, and I feel like I've done a pretty good job of that so far. Dr. Bob: Good. Well, you've expanded beyond just doing the hospice marketing to take on a whole 'nother realm and project, so The Teal Chair. Tell us how that came about. Kimberly Ouwehand: Well, actually, it started out with just a very simple question. I was getting frustrated that people were waiting way too long to use hospice services. I mean, hospices, it is medical, and palliative and comfort care all at home, but hospice traditionally, especially for the older generation, feels like you're signing off on a death wish. They were missing out on a lot of other services, and I loved that hospice was all about surrounding the family with the patient and making it ... Well, it is one of the most important things you do in your life is die well, but I was getting frustrated, because it's a hard subject to bring up, and people were afraid to talk about it, and doctors were putting it off way too long. I wondered if we'd made it more of just a simple question, "If you knew you had limited time, how does that change the way you live today?" That question seemed a little bit softer, so I thought to myself, I thought, "Well, I have this teal chair," and I was just going to plop it in the middle of some public area and pull people off the street and just ask them a question, record it. It was going to be kind of a short YouTube video, but what happened was, I realized I had no video skills whatsoever, and my son had taken a video class at the high school, and I just liked the rawness of it. I didn't want it to be a production. I wanted it to be real. I didn't want it to be ... I just wanted it to be honest, and so I went and asked the teacher over at Eagle High School if he had a couple students who would do a YouTube video. He said, yeah, he had a couple students, and so he kind of ... I found out later he kind of coerced them a little bit to do this death video. Dr. Bob: They were resistant. You think- Kimberly Ouwehand: That's kind of- Dr. Bob: ... that there was resistance- Kimberly Ouwehand: Yeah. Dr. Bob: ... initially? Kimberly Ouwehand: There was a little ... Yeah, but he got five incredible students to ... Sorry. Incredible students to take part in it. The outcome was phenomenal. It took legs very quickly. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I can imagine if you get the support and you get sort of the passion of youth, and it's a creative process that the school could support. It's one of those things that if someone takes that initiative and puts the pieces in place, people want to talk. Right? They want to talk about these issues, and they just need to, it just needs to be presented to them in a, I guess in a safe way, maybe an inspired way that you're going to do good for other people. That's what I've found. When was the, like how long did it take to produce, and what's the status of the film, and I have a lot of questions, but- Kimberly Ouwehand: I know. It is an amazing story. We started out at a venue called JUMP downtown. It was a great collaboration. They were doing a Day of the Dead event, and I thought it was colorful and fun, and festive. The more I learned about the Day of the Dead, the more I appreciate it, and so I thought it would be visually stimulating for the students, so we went down there, and it just grew into one team did events, did the filming of the event on the outside, people looking at the altars. There was, a Before I Die Wall was set up there. I don't know if you know about that, but it's an amazing exhibit. Then the other half went up into the studio, and they were so excited because it was a professional studio. They had the green, and all the lighting and everything, and we were able to take 22 people off out of the event and bring them into the studio and ask them this question. "If you knew you had limited time, how does that change the way you live?" We interviewed people from eight years old up to I think the oldest we've interviewed that day was about 89. It was just, it was interesting. It wasn't scary. It was thought-provoking, and one thing led to another, and I said, "Well, why don't you submit it into the Sun Valley Film Festival for Future Filmmakers?" We made it instead of just a YouTube, to a 10-minute one that would fit the criteria, and submitted it, and out of about 120 across the nation, we were nominated. There were, I think, 12 nominations. We went to the Sun Valley Film Festival, and then since then, we're, it's going, we've sent it to Washington, D.C., to the National Hospice and Palliative Association, and I'll be submitting it into the American Public Health Association- Dr. Bob: Awesome. Kimberly Ouwehand: ... for educational pieces, because what happened is, it just started this huge conversation, and it's not only about dying, but it's about the different seasons you are in your life and what that looks like and having those conversations, because you never know if you're going to die suddenly or if you're going to have a chronic illness that will take a long time. Dr. Bob: One of the things that came to you when you were just posing the question to people, "What would you do differently, or how would you live, if you knew you had a limited time," did people ask you like, "What do you mean by a limited time? Like are you talking about days or months?" Did that seem to be an issue, or did they all sort of feel like they could take that and speak to it without getting more clarity? Kimberly Ouwehand: That's a really ... I mean, nobody's asked me that question, but some people did, like about how much time, but most people didn't ask. They just thought, "Okay. Where am I right now, and what's important to me?" Like the eight-year-old said he wanted to have a pizza party, and you just realize that the shorter, the younger you are in your life, your life doesn't expand very much, and then the teenagers, the college, they wanted to experience life as much as they could. They wanted to get out and just learn as much about the world and everything around them, and then it seems like, and I'm kind of stereotyping it a little bit, but the career, your middle-aged people would be more focused on balance of life, realizing really what is important, not working so much. The family becomes important... Working so much, the family becomes important. And then older people got it was usually something to do with a memory, revisiting a place or a person, or for sure it was all about family. Dr. Bob: I imagine some of them would want to have a pizza party. Kimberly Ouwehand: Yeah, I mean, and the conversations that's come out of it. When I set it up, I set up interviews, and we interviewed doctors, and we interviewed a couple of professional people. And we interviewed a hospice patient and a family who had hospice. When we were doing the interviews, I would think to myself; these kids are going to think it's stupid, it was a waste of time, they're not going to pull anything off of this interview. But what they did, and pulled, and put together, I was amazed. I thought he knows it's boring; they're not going to think it's exciting, they're kids, you know. But they pulled stuff off that I would never have thought of. Some of the pieces that I thought were really long, I had people come up and say that really spoke to them. So you really can't make it into one topic, it's a super broad topic that hits people in all different areas. Dr. Bob: Yeah, it's so personal. That's part of the idea of how do we spend our time, what's important to us, what do we value most? That's what we're getting at, and everyone has such a unique experience. So, I don't want to put you on the spot Kimberly, but what would you want to do if you knew that you only had a limited time? Kimberly Ouwehand: You know what, that's- Dr. Bob: Did you answer it? Were you interviewed? Kimberly Ouwehand: No, I was not interviewed. And I don't know if I really know what I would do because I feel like my life is centered around that already, that everything I do today, it matters. So I hope that when I do die, if I die suddenly, that people will look at my life as I've lived it, and the things that I've done, that I was nice, and that I was kind, and that I was just a good person, I think. But I don't have any bucket list things. I wouldn't do anything differently, really. Dr. Bob: I agree with you. I'm in that same place, and it really feels good to feel like I don't really need anything else. I probably would want to just be with my family, and have friends. I think about it, you being in the hospice world and me being, caring for people at the late stage of life and many of them in their final days and weeks of life, I think about it often. Like, where am I? Am I complete? Am I good? It's a really gratifying feeling to feel like I'm good to go. I would hate not seeing my son grow up and all these things. But I don't feel like there's anything undone or unsaid at this moment. It feels powerful to me. It sounds like you're sort of in that same place. Kimberly Ouwehand: Yeah, and I agree with you too, in the film, I asked one of the interviewers, what would he do? It was interesting because really, and I can see this with a lot of parents that they would hope that they had left enough of them with their children, that their children wouldn't forget him, and his values and what he was like. I think for parents, and I'm a parent too, but my kids are getting older now and more independent, I feel I've done a pretty good job. But I just would want everybody to know that I did love them. The parent thing is a little hard because you're leaving something that you can't follow up with, I guess. Dr. Bob: Kind of unfinished. You feel like you're not, you feel like there are a little bit more unfinished business and a gap that be left more ... I agree with you more so than if the kids were already adults and launched. Was there anything you can think of that was really surprising, that people said, that you, "Wow, that was really interesting," or crazy... Kimberly Ouwehand: Yeah, there was a lot of things that people that I took away from there, just with a little bit of different perspective. One person said, and I thought this was really interesting, and I think I live my life a little bit differently because of it, was, "If you give up one thing if you focus on one thing, sometimes you have to unfocus on another thing." In other words, you can't have it all. You can't focus on everything because then it doesn't, you don't hit the bullseye, basically. I thought that was interesting because I think sometimes we try to do too much, and we forget that you can't. And it's okay not to do everything. And we can't do everything well. And that's why we have people in our lives. That's why we have people like you doing podcasts that are reaching out to a whole different demographic that I can't reach, and I'm doing my thing that you can't reach. I think that put a new perspective on a stressful job, to be honest with you. Dr. Bob: I'm sure that the gift of being involved in that, I'm sure there were many gifts, but one of them was this new perspective and the wisdom that came out of people speaking from their heart, from this place of a different awareness than they would otherwise have. I wonder if, how many of the people that were interviewed, who were able to share what they would do if they had limited time, started doing more of those things. If the impact is not just on the people who watch the film, but the impact on the individuals who got to reflect on that. Kimberly Ouwehand: I feel like the interviewers that I knew, all said that they had conversations later, because their families ask, "What are you doing?" I don't know about the other interviews, that we did at the jump event, the Day of the Dead event because I kept that anonymous, so I didn't want to put names or tag any links on that. So most of them, I never really heard back from. Dr. Bob: It'd be interesting if there was a way to come back and interview those people again. Kimberly Ouwehand: That would be, I know. Dr. Bob: I think we talked a little bit earlier. I think it's so important to get the conversation about life and death, and preparing, and living intentionally, to the younger demographic, into college age kids, and high school age kids, and even elementary school kids. I just feel like we have become such a death-phobic culture and we don't allow ourselves to promote these conversations. I think it just continues to, this fear continues to escalate as we get older, and no one's having the conversations. Do you feel like the film, I haven't seen it, I'm looking forward to seeing it, do you feel like it's something that could be used in schools to help open up the topic and stimulate conversation and sort of a structured format? Kimberly Ouwehand: I really do. At this point, because it really only got finished, there's a 30-minute documentary, and that really didn't get finished until May. So we'll be doing more screenings, but we're talking with BSU, Boise State University to implement that as part of their curriculum in their nursing program. And then also, with the Boise State Center of Aging and their social workers, we will probably be doing a couple of presentations with that. The biggest resistance that I found interestingly enough is with the medical professionals, the ones that are already doctors and physicians. And that one, I've been very surprised at how resistant they have been in having it be presented as a topic. Dr. Bob: And why do you think that is? Kimberly O.: I think number one, they are busy, and they don't necessarily have the time, or maybe even the energy. I think a lot of times, after you get through medical school, you feel like you're an expert in whatever you're doing so you don't think anything outside of that, except for your bubble, I think. I don't know; I'm not a doctor. Dr. Bob: Yeah, no, well I am, and I think those are accurate. But you said there's resistance to actually them coming out and viewing the film, or somehow allowing it to be shown in different venues? I'm curious, it would seem to me that this is the kind of thing that anybody would benefit from seeing, and watching, and taking the teachings. I apologize on behalf of the medical specialty. Kimberly Ouwehand: Oh no, and I don't mean... Dr. Bob: I do. I find myself doing that. I find myself doing that all the time. I hear people talking about all the challenges they have with the medical- Dr. Bob: On all the challenges they have with the medical system and with physicians in particular, and I mean, I'm diverging a little bit, but I do see all the challenges, and I see physicians being stretched and very narrowly focused, and people suffer because of it. Both from when the medical care, as well as the physicians aren't open in many cases to thinking outside the box and supporting something like this project. Anyway, I do find myself apologizing on behalf of physicians [inaudible 00:22:39] to patients. Kimberly O.: I sound like I'm bashing doctors and physicians, but I really am not. I mean, again, it goes back to the focus physicians who are specialties. They need to focus on that. They can't be looking at every other angle, because they'll lose their focus. They'll lose their specialty. I think too; they are asked to do a lot. They're busier now than ever; the paperwork is crazy. Covering your bases all the time. Healthcare, in general, is just getting more complicated. I don't necessarily feel that they're being resistant, but I do feel that they can only handle what they can handle, and one more thing, even if it is outside of the box a little bit, might be just a little bit ... Until they understand it, I just think it might be harder for them to grasp. Dr. Bob: Right. I think you're being gracious, and that's nice, because these are the kinds of things that, yes, it's important to focus on your area of expertise and your practice and to try to maintain balance in your life, but this is the kind of thing that helps to further our humanity, right? Kimberly Ouwehand: It does. Dr. Bob: I mean, this is the stuff, every physician needs to work on their humanity, on their compassion, and on their empathy. It doesn't matter what you do, what specialty you're in, this kind of project is something that everybody should be at least open to bringing in and supporting. That's my thought. Kimberly Ouwehand: Yeah, I appreciate that. I think too; I think sometimes physicians need to stop and think about their own mortality. I think they forget that they are ... They're going to die someday too, and it might help them center what's important to them a little bit too. I would hope, I hope it's one of those films that people take and just apply it to where they need to apply it, you know? Dr. Bob: Yeah. Kimberly Ouwehand: I think too, you mentioned earlier about the younger generation, the high school students, and the college students, and when we had started filming, we started filming the first week of November, and later that month, one of their classmates died in a tragic car accident. At the end of the school year this year, one of the students at the high school committed suicide. Death is around them. It's interesting how they handle it, though. I don't know how they handle it, quite frankly. I don't know if adults put what we know onto kids or if kids just know how to ... It was interesting, 'cause there was hardly any talk about it at school. Dr. Bob: It's hard to imagine that that's healthy. You would think at least you want to have an opening for the kids who feel like they do need to talk or to ask questions or to come together. You'd like to think that they would put that in place to give an opening for those who may be struggling with it more. Kimberly Ouwehand: Yeah, I agree. I think they made it ... I mean, I think the students know they have a counselor that they can go to. I think some of the friends, the girl that died in the car accident, they had a vigil, but it was done just through her girlfriends. It wasn't really ... They didn't talk about it at a school level, and I just thought that was interesting. Especially when it comes to the suicide. There have been several suicides in high schools here, and they don't talk about it. I don't know if that's for the family's sake, or how they handle that in the schools. They don't really tell us, so it's interesting. Dr. Bob: Yeah. It's scary. It's also I think more than people realize, there's also a lot of suicides in medical school, and physicians. It's increasing in numbers. Kimberly Ouwehand: I think that's true, and there is a lot of emphasis on physicians and mental health care, taking care of their mental health. I think you're absolutely correct. Dr. Bob: I want to take it back to the film, and how do I get my hands on not a copy probably, but the ability to get it and show it and potentially have an event around it, or do a showing? Kimberly Ouwehand: At this point, the 30-minute documentary, we're editing it just a tiny bit, and it will be available by link. The 10-minute one that went to the Sun Valley Film Festival will be on our website, at TreasureValleyHospice.com. It's not up yet, but we're working on that. I'm happy to send you a link so you can see it- Dr. Bob: Awesome that'd be wonderful. Kimberly Ouwehand: ... before then. Dr. Bob: Well good. I'm excited, and this is the kind of thing we need to do more of this, and it's cool, 'cause this is taking a softer approach, right? It's not a death café; it's not in your face. It's taking the backdoor approach to are you really living your life intentionally? And doing the things that truly matter, and not ... Go ahead. Kimberly Ouwehand: I'm sorry. I keep interrupting. Dr. Bob: No, that's okay. This is your interview; we're here to hear you. Kimberly Ouwehand: I think the film really almost mirrors a little bit what hospice is because hospice is taking what's really important to you in your life, and everything that surrounds your life at that moment in time. I feel like it's a very softer approach to really what hospice does and is. I hope that's what the message is, in the end. Dr. Bob: Yeah, that's nice. You're right. Many people don't get that. Society, until you've had a personal experience with a really good hospice team, the perception out there still for many people is hospice is basically just where you go to die, and we know that that is ... There are times when that's true when somebody's dying, and they're in their last stages, and hospice comes in and helps facilitate it and make it more comfortable. But there are so many people who spend months on hospice, and they live so much more richly, and so much more peacefully, because of that support. It really is about living well until you die, as opposed to just dying, and I- Kimberly Ouwehand: And the family, too. Dr. Bob: Yeah, that family support. I can see the film helping to further that concept and that philosophy. I'm looking forward to it, to seeing it and sharing it, and who knows what other projects you'll be getting to next. I did an interview not long ago with Michael Rossato-Bennett, who directed the film "Alive Inside." Have you seen that? Kimberly Ouwehand: No, but I'd love to- Dr. Bob: Wonderful film. It's about music and bringing music to people with dementia, and people who are isolated. It started out as just a little project that someone asked him to come and do some filming, and out of that, he has now created a foundation, and there are iPods and headphones being given out to people all throughout the country, and it's launched into something beyond what anyone could ever have imagined. Who knows? Something like that could be happening with you as well. You never know. Kimberly Ouwehand: I hope so. You never know. Thank you so much, Dr. Bob.

Chelsea Berler is a successful entrepreneur, and author and an inspiration for many people. Tragically, she is also dying from breast cancer at the age of 34, but you won't hear Chelsea describe what she's going through as a tragedy nor is she a victim. Listen and please share this episode with others who need to hear it.   Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Contact Learn more about Chelsea's nonprofit organization, The Foye Belle Foundation, by watching the video below and visiting her website:  Foyebelle website Transcript Dr. Bob: Chelsea Berler is a friend, a successful entrepreneur, and author and an inspiration for many people. Tragically, she is also dying from breast cancer at the age of 34, but you won't hear Chelsea describe what she's going through as a tragedy and she certainly isn't a victim. Dr. Bob: She has an amazing perspective on life and on death, which she shares with me during this interview. Anyone dealing with life challenges or has a loved one who is will certainly benefit from listening to Chelsea's heartfelt and loving words. As well as from the book that she recently published 'The Yellow House on the Left'. Listen in. Dr. Bob: Looking at your picture, your Skype profile and it looks exactly like you, but I'm assuming that that's ... I wouldn't see all that flowing blonde hair. Chelsea Berler: I look very different right now, I'd probably look like a teenager going through puberty because I am on some massive steroids and I'm getting hair where I haven't had hair before, and of course my hair's starting to grow back from the chemo. So I'm looking mighty, mighty different these days. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Well, I imagine that that's just one of the many lessons, right? Chelsea Berler: Absolutely. Dr. Bob: To learn humility not get too attached to certain appearances. Chelsea Berler: You're right. Dr. Bob: Well Chelsea, thanks for reaching out. I mean we're having this conversation because you had reached out to me recently just to touch base and honestly, I didn't know that you were dealing with any of this. That was a big surprise to learn that you were on this journey and I appreciate it in the thing that stuck out what your phrase that you wrote was, I would love to see you do more with people that are directly in the path of your work. Dr. Bob: Would you be willing to share a little bit about what that means to you? What's your thinking around wanting to connect with people who are directly in the path? What does that look like? Chelsea Berler: You know, it was so interesting how it kind of came to be is, of course, we've been connected for years and had worked together in some capacity or the next, and we play in the same circle of really great people. You were on my mind the other day because I was ... One thing I've been spending a lot of time doing is listening to podcasts and one of the biggest reasons is, is because of my current state, I have this ringing in my ears pretty consistently. Chelsea Berler: What helps is listening to something or listening to music or things of that sort, I was actually on the podcast app and just trying to search for a podcast that was inspirational, podcast about death and dying and all that. And I thought, "Oh, Bob has one." I went and looked up, and I started listening to all men. I really enjoyed them, and then I got to thinking, you know, it'd be so great to listen into other people's stories that are going through death and dying. Chelsea Berler: I'm assuming, in some situations people often aren't in the mood to be sharing any stories or feeling good enough to do that, oh who knows, young or old. But I thought maybe there was, and maybe there was an opportunity for you to be able to add some of those stories, and I thought, oh, I would also love to share mine just because it's rather unique to in hopes that it will also help someone else that may be in that same situation looking for a podcast or trying to find something like that, that kind of helps them with the process as well. So that's kind of how I came to reach out and be like, "Hey, Bob!" Dr. Bob: I'm so glad that you did and I'm so glad that you were open and that you're feeling up to doing it, I know that it's kind of day by day in terms of how that goes and so thank you. I spent a little time over the last couple of days reading some of your posts and the articles that you have on Huffington Post and just kind of getting more familiar with your journey. Dr. Bob: So first of all, you're an amazing writer and I knew that before but I'm seeing a different style, and it's a different theme of course but your ability to express yourself and the pain of it, the wonder of it, all of it, just the full catastrophe in the middle of the night. So I appreciate that you're willing to share and I know that there are people who are benefiting from that, everything that you've put out there. Dr. Bob: A lot of people just kind of shrink into their own world and don't want to contribute it anymore. Thank you for being somebody who's not doing that, who's continuing to shine your light out in the world despite the challenges that you're dealing with daily. Chelsea Berler: Yeah, and something to piggyback off that and I know that we'll get into this story a bit, but I actually decided right when I found out I have been writing and so I have another book with that, it's going to be done this week, I'm having helped from a writer that actually helped me write my last one, and it's basically on death and dying. So in all the right ways and it was mostly because I had these Huffington Post articles that I never in a million years thought I would be dying from this cancer. We all were focusing on a cure, which was very much the what was going to happen. Chelsea Berler: Since that didn't we pulled together these Huffington Post articles and wrote, she's been helping write this next book that will be out soon too, and I think that it'll be a really great contributor. It's going to be called 'The Yellow House on the Left,' so that'll be fun too. So I'll keep you posted on that. Dr. Bob: When do you anticipate that it'll be available? Chelsea Berler: I think that it'll go to print end of next week and then it'll be about two weeks until we can get that in our hands. We've been rocking and rolling on that, and I think it was just one of those things where I thought, it now is time to put all of these things into writing because I do think that there will be people that would be helped by these stories and my story and I wanted to get it out as quickly as I could, but I was like, "Gosh, could I actually make this happen?" Because day-to-day my challenges get worse for sure and so I think we'll make it. Dr. Bob: Awesome. I can't wait in that, and I'm looking forward to seeing it and reading it, and of course trying to spread it, spread it out to those who will benefit from it. Chelsea Berler: Thank you. Dr. Bob: Why don't you tell listeners what's going on, what do you, what are you dealing with day-to-day right now? Chelsea Berler: I turned 33 last year in March and my husband at that time was traveling every week to Europe for work, so he would spend basically Monday through Friday in London and Paris for work and then he comes home every week. That's been our life forever, he travels during the week, and we see each other on the weekends, and it's been lovely, that's the life that we love to live. Chelsea Berler: He was traveling a lot, and so we decided I'd love to take a big trip and go to Europe, and in lieu of him having to come home for a couple of weeks and kind of see his life there, following him around, enjoy some time in Europe because I had never been, and so we were really excited about that. Chelsea Berler: So came May, I flew over there, and I had the best trip of my life, it was truly so much fun. It was great to just see not only how busy, and crazy his life and lifestyle was over there–like the guy is like the energizer bunny–but it was just fun to just immerse yourself in another country for a while, and so we did that. That was a lot of fun. But I noticed while I was there, I was like, I could not keep up with him and to be honest, I can barely keep up with him and how like he does have high energy and I'm probably more chill. Chelsea Berler: I just noticed I was really tired and I thought, it could be jet lag and the time difference. We were between London and Paris, so it's six, seven hours difference and maybe I was trying to kind of get used to it. Then when I got back, there was about a month in between where I was still really tired. But again, I just thought, maybe I wasn't eating well or whatever, and so I started working on a program with a friend [Christie Smear 00:10:26], you probably know her. Dr. Bob: I do know her. Chelsea Berler: Wells Fargo or The Wealthy Thought Leader can. Anyways, I started doing like a cleanse with her and like I was feeling really good, and my energy was a little backup, so I was excited about that. Then in July I noticed a lump in my armpit, and it literally like, just was like in my armpit and I thought, "Well, that's weird," I'm young, you know, at the time of 33 years old and so it didn't even phase me that it could be like something crazy, but I thought, "I'll get it checked out and see what's up." Chelsea Berler: So I had just a regular gynecologist appointment that was already scheduled like my yearly exam because when you're 33, they don't have you do mammograms or anything until you're at least 40. I went in for it in end of July, I think, and she's like, "You know, it's probably nothing." Like she felt around, made sure everything looked okay. She's like, "This is probably just a lump that it's no big deal." So she said, but of course, we want to go ahead and by protocol and have them check it out, do an ultrasound on it, and maybe a biopsy just depending. Chelsea Berler: I was like, "Yeah, no problem," so we weren't really quick on scheduling it. I think I had it scheduled like a week later and they did a biopsy, and when the doctor went in and did it, he said, "You know, I'm going to do a couple more." I didn't really think much of it. So he did a couple of different biopsies in that area, and then about a week later, the doctor called my gynecologist called and said, "Do you want to come in and talk about your results?" I was like, "That's weird. Can you just let me know, you know, what you found?" She said, "Well, it all came back cancer," and I said, "What does that mean? Like cancer? Like what?" Chelsea Berler: She goes like, "I don't know, I can't interpret the results, but I need to put you in touch with an oncologist that you can meet with to discuss the outcome." At that point, I just broke down in tears, and I handed the phone to my husband who was drifting fully, and he had, of course, a lot of questions. "Can you give us more ..." I don't know anything other than these biopsies tested positive for cancer and she didn't know too much about the type or whatever. Chelsea Berler: We ended up connecting with, so she gave us a referral for an oncologist, and so it was a week after that, that we were to meet them. So we, of course, were like for an entire week, knew nothing other than we just have to meet with this doctor and we'd go to meet with her, and there was actually, we live in the Gulf of Mexico, and there was a hurricane before that ended up not hitting us. But of course when something like that happens, everything closes, and we didn't even think two thinks about it. So we went to the doctor's office, and there's a big sign that says they're closed. Chelsea Berler: The day we were supposed to figure out what was going on, we were standing in front of the doctor's office with like, "Sorry, hurricane happened last night. We're not open today." We came back home, and we were just like, this is the worst feeling in the world to know like someone found cancer and you hang, don't know anything about it and you can't get into the doctor. Chelsea Berler: The next morning we called of course and said we had an appointment, it looks like yeah, we're closed. No one called us. And they said, "Well, come in today at 4:00," because we basically begged them like, "Can someone just tell us what's going on at this point?" That was kind of a frustrating moment because it just felt like we were in limbo a bit for a couple of weeks. Chelsea Berler: Finally we met with her that next day at 4:00. She is amazing; we have the best oncologist ever. Basically, she sat there and said, "Tell me what you know so far so I can fill in the gaps." She told us that I would test it positive for triple negative breast cancer, and she wanted to go ahead and do all the genetic testing and figure out this type of cancer and rate it and all of that. She couldn't do that until we did like a full PET Scan and did all of the more specific test to kind of understand what we were dealing with. Chelsea Berler: We went ahead and did a pretty extensive genetic testing that all came back negative. Thankfully, because I also have several sisters, a mom, it had been impacted, so we know that I didn't have it genetically. Thankfully that was great. But it also stumped us because she said, for me being so young and we're having triple negative, it's awfully confusing how one like me would get something like this. Chelsea Berler: Then the other thing was we went ahead and did the PET Scan, and it looked to be pretty severe. One thing about triple negative breast cancer is it's a pretty aggressive cancer. Triple-negative breast cancer is probably the hardest one I think to combat a bit because it's not hormonal based and a lot of people like that I did chemo with were much older than me and all hormonal based breast cancer. Chelsea Berler: We were kind of dealing with that from both ends, but we ended up having the PET Scan, and everything, and she called it initially early stage 3C, but basically I'm stage four because I could have done clinical trials and all of this other stuff. We basically classified as stage for triple negative breast cancer at the time. Dr. Bob: Where else was it in addition to the lump that they had biopsied in the breast, where else at that point? Chelsea Berler: It was in my lymph nodes or is in my lymph nodes in my armpit, and then also we saw activity above the clavicle, and it was pretty tiny activity above the clavicle. They felt really confident in my care because we could do a double mastectomy although it was only in one breast, I told them right away I was like, if we're taking one, take it both. What we were going to do, the plan was is to do six months of chemo to shrink everything, and we felt really confident about that, and then we wanted to do a double mastectomy, remove the lymph nodes and then the rest of the tiny activity we saw above the clavicle we wanted to hit with radiation, and so I had a team of a surgeon, the oncologist, and the radiologist, and we all got together, they all were like super confident, like kick this. Chelsea Berler: We did the six months of chemo, I started that in September and not only did it go well, I mean I was sick as a dog and it was awful, but it went so well that when we met with our surgeon, because we were meeting with our surgeons several times, like once a month we would go in and get a mammogram and check everything and see how things are progressing. This last time when I was finishing chemo, not only did the tumors shrink so much that she said, "You don't even need a mastectomy anymore, I can do a lumpectomy and remove everything." She felt so confident, and our surgeon is amazing, she's like in her early, I think she's in her early 70's, she has seen it all it's just like, well-recommended around here are amazing. Chelsea Berler: She was just like so confident, like don't worry about thing, I think let's do a lumpectomy. We left that appointment thinking, "Holy crap, this is amazing," and they were raving about how amazing chemo is in that situation because should I have not want the chemo away we would be removing all kinds of things trying to get this cancer out. Chelsea Berler: Anyway, so my last mammogram I did was December or January. No, wait, February. That was when my last chemo was February 14th actually Valentine's Day. We did that last mammogram, and we got to go in and see it, she's like, "Come and look at this." She literally put like the pictures of the mammogram, but there was never a moment that we talked about, it was so tiny for a moment. We're excited. We had to talk about death or dying, because it wasn't even on this entire journey, because no one has been talking about that potentially happen. Chelsea Berler: There was never a moment where we talked about this could kill me, there was never a moment where we had to talk about death or dying because it wasn't even on the table. Like there was no one talking about that as being something that could potentially happen because the plan and what they were working with they just felt really confident about it. Dr. Bob: That's really interesting. I wonder if you were 73 instead of 33 if that conversation would have been different. Chelsea Berler: Yeah. Maybe. Maybe I had a lot of issues through the chemotherapy process like my white blood count was ... I was struggling a lot, so I ended up having to skip several chemos, and so they called me this unicorn. They were like, you know how you meet people and like for example, you hear a herd of horses, and you know their horses, you hear, you can hear what they sound like, right? But then you look back, and there are horses, but there's one unicorn. This unicorn that's not quite fitting in any pot, and so I was basically a bit of a problem child for them from the start when it came to even the chemo process because of course I'm with all these other patients that are going through this process, and mostly they're going through the way they need to be going through it. Chelsea Berler: I felt like almost every time I would go I would have these issues of like not being able to get chemo or being too weak or whatever. I'm like, "I'm the youngest one here by like a lot." Like I would say the next person in line in terms of age was probably in their 50's that I was with, so I was like, "Why is the young person, am I having so many problems?" I got through it, and it was so successful that we were also a bit surprised because we were worried that it wouldn't be because of the issues that I had been having. Chelsea Berler: My tumors and lymph nodes are shrunk so much that it was just amazing. At that point we scheduled surgery, so we have to wait at least four weeks after your last chemo to have surgery, so I think we scheduled it for like five and a half weeks after that. I had my birthday March 13th, I turned 34, and two days after that I got put in the hospital because ... A week prior I started getting these really weird headaches, and they would come on for about five minutes, and they would be just extremely painful for like five minutes, almost like I was having a contraction in my head, and then it would eat often go away. Chelsea Berler: It would happen like almost 10 times a day, and I was feeling like I kept saying to people like, I'm having these weird headaches, I'm having these weird headaches. I was telling the doctor, and she said, it could be, or coming off of chemo. It could be then the anxiety I was kinda having from going through this for the last six months, we couldn't quite put our finger on it. But because as a cancer patient you're always high priority and may want to make sure they're running every test possible. Chelsea Berler: She's like, "Let's do an MRI. Let's make sure nothing's going on in there. Let's scan your brain, whatever." I did a couple of MRIs; nothing showed up. I did an MRV, nothing showed up, and I was beginning to be really frustrated because everyone kept saying to me like, we can't find anything. I started feeling a little crazy like something is not right, I don't get headaches. I've never been someone to get headaches ever in my life. Chelsea Berler: To be honest, I've been a very healthy person my whole life, not ever breaking a bone or having any major issues but they couldn't quite figure it out. We went and saw a neurologist and just to meet with them, and of course he looks at me and he's like, "I don't know what's wrong with you," but basically our last resort, I talked to oncologist, and we're going to do a spinal tap and see if anything comes up. Chelsea Berler: He said, "It probably doesn't, and it's probably something that's causing some issues. It could be from coming off the chemo, we don't know, but everyone's kind of like give it some time." They had put me on some medicine right away just to try and help with the headaches; I think they might've put me on steroids right away. I did the spinal tap, and it was a Friday morning, so it was basically two days after my 34th birthday, and the neurologist actually called me and said, "I need to check you into the emergency room, the hospital, because it's possible you might have fungal meningitis." Chelsea Berler: They weren't entirely sure, but they were sending off a pathology report, but it came back with what they had so far until they could have someone else read it that it could be fungal meningitis. He said, "That's something that you have to be really careful of." So come in, and I didn't really think too thinks about it. But that morning my husband, my stepson plays for Mizzou, and he was playing in Louisiana, and I was encouraging my husband to fly to Louisiana for the day and night to see him play baseball because I've been sick, we've missed so many of his ballgames. Chelsea Berler: I was like, I'm fine. We've been doing all these tests to figure out these headaches. I'll go do this by tap, like no biggie. Please go, you know, so I spent the day with my mom, thank goodness she's local here, so I get to see her every day. So she came with me, it was no big deal. We came home, the neurologist called and said, "Come in, we need to check you in." Chelsea Berler: I didn't think anything of it, so we get checked in the hospital, and everyone's wearing masks, and I'm realizing, oh, so they think like if I have this meningitis that it could spread. Like I didn't know much about fungal meningitis. Dr. Bob: Not many people do–don't feel bad. It's not something the general population knows much about. Chelsea Berler: It was so weird, and so I realized that when we pulled in to the hospital to the emergency area, the neurologist came out and met us and brought us in and so then I thought, "Oh, so this might be kind of a big deal." I called my husband. I was like, "Listen, I'm okay and fine and good. I want you to go to this game." He just landed in Louisiana, he had flown there, and he's like, "Heck no. I'm turning around and coming back." He literally walked off the plane, walk down another one and started flying home. Chelsea Berler: At this time we got checked into the hospital, everyone's wearing mask, they had to put these like, and mind you, this is the first time I've ever been in a hospital bed before. I've never been in an ER, nothing like that. Dr. Bob: Even through all of this, even throughout the treatments and everything. You never ended up in that ER, that's wonderful. Chelsea Berler: That was definitely one thing I never ever had to do, but they had to pad each side of the bed just in case I had a seizure because they said, "This is fungal meningitis, that's pus," I'm like, this is blowing my mind right now. But no one's really telling us anything other than that, and with my Google searches, I'm like, "Okay, so if I have this meningitis, okay, we'll figure this out, whatever." Chelsea Berler: I got there, it was probably about 2:00 when we checked in, and we spent, of course, all day there, and we didn't hear back from the doctor. She's waiting on this pathology report, same with a neurologist. So we haven't heard anything other than they're giving me some steroids, they're just making me comfortable, they're helping with my headaches and my mom, and I just hung out there. Chelsea Berler: Finally, we took over a mask because we were like, "Oh, we can't even breathe through these things," and mom's like, "If you have it, I already have it because I've been with you." We just kinda chilled out and Mark, my husband arrived around 5:30, so he comes in, and we're still sitting there visiting and then, of course, my doctor comes in. I was surprised to see her because it was, gosh, it was late, it was after dinner time I think. I was thinking, "Well, I'll probably just see her in the morning because it's so late." Chelsea Berler: Well anyways, I think what really happened was she found out the results of my spinal tap, which was that the cancer spread to my brain and spinal fluid and that was causing these massive headaches. She, I think was, to be honest with you, heartbroken and I think it was hard for her to come visit us at the hospital because she came in and she normally is like all done up, and she's just amazing, and she had no makeup on. You could tell she had been crying. Chelsea Berler: She leaned over, and she had the mask on, and she said, "I'm taking this off because you don't have fungal meningitis. I'm pretty sure you don't have fungal meningitis, and I can't talk through it." She took off her mask, and she was explaining what they call LC to us, which is where the cancer spreads to your spinal and brain fluid. It was that moment where, of course, my husband had a million questions, and I'm sitting there like, "What is happening?" Chelsea Berler: My mom, she does a little laid on top of me, like a hen and just wanted to just lay on me and she was of course crying, and I was crying, and I wasn't really processing like what she was saying. The doctor was crying, and finally, Mark said to her, "Can we step outside?" Because I think he was just, I have so many questions, and I think he wanted to understand what was going on before they could finish talking to me about it. I told them to of course go out and talk about it, he and the doctor and so he did and kind of learned what this LC is and what to expect and what that means. Chelsea Berler: That was literally the first point where we were like, wow, like, so there's no option, this is terminal. We were shocked that especially given the news that we had just gotten. Dr. Bob: Yeah, a little incredible roller coaster that you had to be hanging onto. Chelsea Berler: Yeah. I mean and surgery was scheduled for that Friday, so we were actually going to have surgery that Friday. It literally happened like we just found out before that, and I think it's like this, the LC is like a two percent chance, super rare, super crazy. Again, you hear a herd of horses; you think they're all horses and there's one unicorn that's me that just has never really quite made sense through this whole process. Dr. Bob: Chelsea, that was just like six weeks ago?  Chelsea Berler: Yeah, so my birthday was March 13th, I was in the hospital March 15th is when we found out. Yeah, I think. It was just recently. Dr. Bob: LC is the actual name for it, it's leptomeningeal carcinomatosis, and I think there's another name called neoplastic meningitis and essentially it's when tumor has gotten through that barrier, through the blood-brain barrier and it's around the brain and the different, the little sheets that cover the brain and the spinal cord. I imagined what they saw in that spinal tap was a lot of protein and a lot of things that didn't belong there and probably some cells, the cancer cells and that might've just really confused them so they couldn't quite figure out what to make of it at first. Dr. Bob: Wow. What's it? You went from like totally thrilled that all the struggle that you had gone through with the chemotherapy and all of that was worth it. You were now looking at the next phase which was a surgery, and you know feeling hopeful about having eaten this. Then a few days later you're given the news that it's terminal and there's no cure. Chelsea Berler: Yeah, it's crazy. It was really interesting and as I've been writing this book, reflecting on the whole process again, just like going through it, knowing that there was that here like we were all very much like a focus on that. There was never this like other option or other like that this could kill you. It was, of course, surprising, to say the least, but also it's one of those things that I think about too, and know that nothing is promised. Your life isn't promised and your days aren't promised, and no one said you're going to live to be 100 or 90 or whatever the case might be. Chelsea Berler: I think people assume, of course, we all assume we'll have a big long life, but the reality is, that's not the case. The more I thought about it, the more I thought I've had such an amazing life, I have done such amazing things. I got to live as long as I could, and I continued to, and I'm so thankful for that. I think that it's really opened my eyes even more so to just a life well lived and sharing that with people, knowing that your tomorrow is never promised and the next day isn't either. Chelsea Berler: For people that walk around thinking that they're going to live a long life, I hope they do but knowing that ... that's not the case, sometimes for people and it's not for me. So really reflecting on the time I still have left, it has been fun, to say the least in terms of just living each day, however, I want to live it and no restrictions right now. I have been eating a lot of pizza rolls, and that's been fun. Pop tarts, I bring it back to pop tart. Dr. Bob: I think it's good as they used to be. Chelsea Berler: Funny story is I thought to myself, what are some things that I remember as a child that I just love so much that I've refrained from, from so many years because I've eaten healthy because I wanted to be a really healthy person. Of course, when I was a teenager I ate all that junk food and I thought, there are these things that I really wanted to eat like lucky charms. Chelsea Berler: Then, of course, I wanted to get some pop tarts and Oreos and things like that. I was showing my husband, there are things that we're transitioning to him like how to order groceries online to make his life easier, so I've been showing him those types of things, and it's kind of dangerous because now that I'm on steroids too, [inaudible 00:38:09]. So I'm always ordering groceries. Dr. Bob: Do you have Uber Eats by you? Chelsea Berler: We do, but we have not used it, I should set that up. I ordered pop tarts, and I was so excited, and I sat down, and I opened the first one, and I started eating it. I had toasted the first one, and I was like, "Gosh, this doesn't near as good as I thought it was going to be," like I was really excited about it. And then I thought it was a little bit of a Debbie Downer; I was like, this I thought used to be so much better. Chelsea Berler: As I started eating them then I was like, "Okay, they're kind of delicious." Yeah, I've been doing that in divulging a bit in food, but you know it's funny because you think about those things and you refrain from so many things because you want to be healthier, to be better, to be good at it. I think that absolutely we should all be healthier and not be eating pop tarts. Dr. Bob: Every day at least. Chelsea Berler: Exactly, but I do think that, as humans, we need to enjoy the simple delegacies of life and not refrain from too much because I think there's so much happiness and little silly things like that, that I think can bring someone great joy just even in little morsel, even a little chocolate here and there, whatever. But it brings me back to those things that I think, gosh, I didn't, I have a pop tart if I wanted a pop tart. I think more people should probably have that mindset with things these days because again, you just don't know what could happen. I mean, you can go from one extreme to the next. Chelsea Berler: The other thing that I am so fortunate about is there are so many tragedies in life. There were people die suddenly and quickly, and you can't say goodbye, you can't prepare. They're just gone. I am so thankful that I have this time with my family, my close friends. I have been so enjoying being able to reconnect with people and share things with people and talk about memories and all of those things. Chelsea Berler: I'm also in that place of a great deal of peace, being able to have peace with people and have this time with the LC diagnosis. It can be weeks; it could potentially be months. We actually stopped treatment; we were doing spinal taps where we were doing chemo in my spine and then chemo pills. But none of that is proven to be effective, it could possibly be effective in terms of lengthening my life maybe a little bit, but it was actually causing a great deal of pain. Chelsea Berler: The spinal taps were really painful for me because I have a lot of inflammation. We were spending three out of five days at the hospital between doctors' appointments and the treatments. We decided to stop everything about a week ago just because it was just like, this is not how I want to spend my time. Dr. Bob: And that happens, I think it happens so frequently as people or they continue on this path because that's what's recommended and there's no other option, and this is sort of direct or directed down this path with uncertainty, there's a very uncertain benefit and likely not a great benefit, but what's definite is that you are giving up your time, the time that you have the precious time that you have with your family and your friends and the piece of just being able to stay in the environment that's comforting to you and to ... Dr. Bob: I honor you for making that decision, and I imagine that has given you some additional sense of peace of not being back in that world. Chelsea Berler: It's been good. My husband and I discussed it at great detail because we basically asked the question to the doctor if I continue to do these treatments, is there a greater than 50% chance that they're working or less than 50% chance they're working? She said, "Less than 50% chance," and she's like, "I'm not even sure they're doing anything," and because this LC is so rare that it's basically, she's basically saying, "Let's just try it and see if it extends your life," and I was just like, "Let's just stop."  Dr. Bob: Let's just not, yeah. Chelsea Berler: She was really cool about it, she's been just amazing at like, "What do you guys want at this point?" I was so sick of taking so many pills and all of that that I was just like, I'm throwing in the towel. Especially, I mean if there were ... if she could prove to us that it was helping clearly I'd want to extend my life but of course not. I've noticed, daily I am declining just in little things like my legs aren't working as great as they should be working and stuff like that. Chelsea Berler: We started hospice this week, but mostly it's we decided to do that because I want to be as independent as possible in our home while I can. So getting the help that I need with walkers or things like that to be able to continue to get around as much as I can. Between my mom and my husband, of course, they're taking care of us or taking care of me, so I don't need the nurse and the CNA here or anything like that right now. Chelsea Berler: Being able to have their help just with this advice and stuff around the house has been really great. We started that process, which has been really amazing by the way, that kind of care. I think more than anything like just being able to decide how I want to spend today and whether that be, this interview or listening to podcasts or reading something or my husband has been taking me for drives, and that's been fun just to get out. Chelsea Berler: I get tired pretty quickly, but being able to just get out and get some sun on my face has been awesome but just choosing how I want to spend that time is really important I think for anyone probably in this situation. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I imagine your husband has working less, kind of, at this point, spending more time with you. Chelsea Berler: Actually, when we found out in September of my diagnosis he stopped traveling completely, he has just been working from home, and he works with such an amazing company that has just been supporting him and like you do whatever you need to do, work from home, whatever. So he's actually been home full time, and that's been amazing, and we've both been trying to ... I own my company, and so I've been working as much as I can, we're working on transitioning it to someone that's been with me for seven years. Chelsea Berler: That is my heart, and he's taking over my company, and I'm going to be running it going forward in that has been so amazing, so I've been helping with that and just doing as much as I can during the day to get him set. When all that's good and finished, he's good to go. My husband's been trying to live, a bit of a normal life I guess, if you will, just I'm encouraging him to do a little bit of work in the morning, and while we can, I think that it's good to feel human in that way. Chelsea Berler: But we've been spending a lot of really great quality time together where we talk about the best conversations that we've just never had to talk about before, like death and dying. About an afterlife, about spirituality and it's, of course, deepened our relationship together and having those conversations, things that some people probably have them I'd assume, but I guess we just had never talked a lot about it. Chelsea Berler: He's older than I am and so in my head I always thought that I would be his caregiver and take care of him and of course everything's changed, and so now I'm worried about leaving him because there's so many things he doesn't know about, just household stuff and add order groceries and dog food that we have on auto pay, those kinds of things that I've been working really hard to make sure he is set because I worry about him because he hasn't had to really manage those things. Dr. Bob: That's really sweet of you, you worried about him. Chelsea Berler: I always thought in my head that, I love being a caregiver for and I'm a very compassionate person, and so I just always like to take care of people, of other people, and I never thought that it would be people taking care of me, I guess. It's been a little bit hard to get used to that, but he has done an amazing job. I can't imagine going through something like this with anyone else, and it's really interesting how you look at a relationship when something like this happens and how things changed in such a dramatic way and how you're cared for and how amazing he's been as a husband all these years that we've been together. But just how he has to take care of a dying wife now. Chelsea Berler: He has just been so phenomenal and amazing, I can't imagine doing it with anyone else. So one thing that was really important to me when I first started this process was when I was going into this chemo room is one thing that was super shocking was, there was a lot of people that didn't have insurance, almost everyone. There was a lot of people that didn't have anyone with them. There were a lot of people that didn't have any kind of supplies like I had, meaning when I first found out I had cancer, I had this outpouring of love and support of people sending me things like lotions and beanies and bath soaps and like all these healing things to get me through. Like, "Oh my gosh, my friend or family member just found out they have cancer, like what can I do?" Chelsea Berler: I was getting all of this stuff, and it was so much stuff that it was great, it was like books and coloring books and things to pass the time because when you go to chemo you're there like almost six hours sometimes just not only waiting for your drugs but then getting your drugs and it like it's just such a process. I felt like I would walk in there with, Mark would come with me every single time, he sits with me the whole time. I would come in with a bag of this stuff that I could use playing cards and like I said, books and coloring books and things that would just help me get through this process. Chelsea Berler: As I was looking around, I was heartbroken because no one ... like I literally, I felt like I was the only one that had it, it really did, and it broke my heart because how many people a day are going through this and having to sit there every day. I thought to myself, there's got to be something that I could do to help these people. I thought, I'm going to take all this stuff that was given to me that I had extras of which was a ton, and I'm just going to bring it all in here and ask the nurses if I can just put it on this back shelf and anyone can have it, whatever they want. Chelsea Berler: I asked him, and I said, "Great, absolutely bring it in," and so I literally just dumped out a ton of stuff that I had extra stuff. The end of that day it was all gone, everything that in like the women that are in there, of course, are bald, and some of them didn't have beanies and some of them, you know, I just don't have anything. Chelsea Berler: Then it got me thinking, like there are all these really great nonprofits that help raise money for research and help do this or that within the cancer funding foundations, but there isn't that I know of a place where you can go where you can get support meaning these types of things that help you pass the time, and there isn't a place where you can do it for free. I mean, you have to buy it, or someone is going to buy it for you. Chelsea Berler: I thought, I am going to start a nonprofit where it'll be based on donation, and I'm going to put together bags of things, I'm going to curate them based off of what I used. Every single thing in what we're calling a blue bag because blue is, I feel like more adequate than pink, it is stuff that I have personally used. Like things like oatmeal that it was really all that I could eat for a while, ginger candies helped with nausea, the coloring books, the reading books, the warm socks, the lotions, the bath soaps, all of those things that I personally use that I know used, that I used well. Chelsea Berler: I put these bags together, and I thought, I don't know how this is going to go. I don't know if people will understand it but I'm going to start this blue big movement, and I am going to allow people to request them if they want to request them on their own, and like for themselves if they're going through cancer treatment, or someone can request for them, and we'll ship them. Because my business is web design, we were able to put up a website. I was able to curate these products, design a bag that it's really amazing. Chelsea Berler: I was like, "Okay, we're gonna do this, we're going to police together," and the donations just started coming in. I think we're probably at about $50,000 that we've raised, and that's not even corporate donations, that's literally personal community people we've known like it's been amazing. We've been able to ship these blue bags all around the world, they've gone to the UK, they've gone to the US. Chelsea Berler: We just shipped some time to Honolulu, there's a map that for bell.org where you can see where the blue bags have gone so far. It's been amazing, and it's also very sad because there are so many people that are going through this process that need this kind of support and we get to ship these out for free, and it is awesome. Chelsea Berler: What we're doing right now as we're transitioning the foundation, so my husband is going to run it when I'm gone, and I have a really great group of people here that friends and family that they help curate and put these blue bags together every month. What we try and do is do 50 at a time, we probably will start doing 100 at a time because it's going so well. It's a lot of work and so what we have to do right now is, we make enough, and then people request them on the website and then you have to take the request form down when we run out so we can make more. We're kind of trying to get into the rhythm of that. It's been amazing; it's been so awesome.  Dr. Bob: That is incredible. I mean, with all the other things that you've got going on in your life to have been to have the wherewithal. The desire to create something to help other people just truly speaks to the depth of who you are. So that's incredible, so there'll be a link on our website, integratedmdcare.com/newsite1 where people can get access to this podcast. We'll also have a link to bell.org so that they can go in and get on and see how they can contribute or request a bag for someone who they know that would benefit from it. That is just, wow, Chelsea, you're awesome, and it does sound like you have lived about three lifetimes and your short 30, 40 years. Chelsea Berler: I know, it's like a cat, right? Dr. Bob: I mean you've shared a lot of obviously from some very, very deep and personal, intimate things and you'd given, I know some of your wisdom that that's come to you and through you, anything that you feel is just kind of needing to bubble out before we say for this particular episode?  Chelsea Berler: I think more than anything I appreciate you taking the time and understanding why that maybe this would be helpful for others to include in your podcast. Just having the being one that's going through the dying process and being at peace with it and being in a good place with it, I think is really great. I think that part of that is just knowing that life is short and I hope that people will really take tune to know that life, live a little harder, live a little bigger, live a little more fierce, and eat a pop tart if you want to eat a pop tart. Chelsea Berler: I think those are all really important pieces to living a good life and not worrying so much about saving all your money and maybe take more trips and have more memories, and maybe less things and more good stuff that you can add to your life that will just add to those sweet memories that you can keep a hold of. I think all that's really important. Just as a takeaway for it, for anyone that thinks they have a long life to live, which I hope they do. I hope they live each day as if it were their last because I think that that's important. Dr. Bob: No doubt. Awesome. Well, thank you again, and I'm so glad that we're reconnected, and I'm hoping that we can use the time that you have left to continue to add value and stay connected and promote your book and the nonprofit, and you're amazing. I knew you were amazing before. Now I see an entirely a whole other realm of amazing in you. So thank you for being you and for sharing you. Chelsea Berler: Thank you. I appreciate it very much. I adore and love you and your work, and I think that what you do is so important. So thank you for that.

Hemlock Society San Diego (619) 233-4418 In this episode, Faye Girsh talks about the Right To Die and why she continues to support the movement.     Faye was the President of the Hemlock Society USA from 1996-2002 and Senior Vice President of End-of-Life Choices (Hemlock's temporary name) from 2002-2004. She had served on Hemlock's national board and essentially succeeded its founder, Derek Humphry. While President of the Hemlock Society she started the Caring Friends program, in 1998, which provided free, personal information and bedside support to Hemlock members considering a hastened death. For the last 25 years, she has appeared in debates and speeches all over the U.S. and has been on national TV and radio, including Court TV, Good Morning America, and Nightline. She was a speaker at the World Federation Conference in Melbourne, Toronto, Tokyo, and Amsterdam and has spoken at law schools, medical schools, civic groups, universities, and to many other audiences in this country, Great Britain, Canada, New Zealand and Australia. Transcript Dr. Bob: Well, hello and welcome to another episode of A Life and Death Conversation. I'm Dr. Bob Uslander, the founder of Integrated MD Care and the host of this series of podcasts. I have a very special guest with me today. All of my guests are special in some way or another, but Faye Girsh is a phenomenal woman. She is truly a ... I don't know. Some people I've heard to describe her as a marvel and an inspiration, so I'm thrilled to introduce you to my dear friend and co-conspirator, Faye Girsh. Faye Girsh: Hello, Bob. If you're looking for a wonder woman, I'm not it, but I'm very happy to expound on our mutually interesting subject. Dr. Bob: Fantastic. And many people would argue that point and would call you a wonder woman, because you've had a fascinating life, and I know a very interesting career, and the things that you've devoted yourself to and committed yourself to are of great importance to many of the people who are listening, because this is a life and death conversation and to me, you have really lived a very inspiring life, and you never shy away from the conversation about death. And you're somebody who has really devoted herself to helping others have the best possible experience of life and as well the best possible experience of death. Faye Girsh: Thank you for all that. Dr. Bob: And thank you for all that you've done, because what I get to do in my career, some of what gives my life and my career a great meaning is a direct result of the work that you've done over the years. Faye Girsh: It's very encouraging now that there are so many people working on this very important issue for all of us. Dr. Bob: And the issue that you're referring to it's called by lots of different things. When you're talking to somebody about what it is that you do and what you've devoted so much of your life to, what are the words that you like to use to describe it? Faye Girsh: I guess choices at the end of life, if I have less than 30 seconds, that people should be able to die the way they want to, in a humane and peaceful way, with their friends and loved ones present, and consistent with their own values and beliefs. That's the 45-second version. Dr. Bob: Actually, I think it was probably closer to 20 seconds, and it's- Faye Girsh: 20 seconds, okay. Dr. Bob: ... very descriptive and appropriate, I think. Faye Girsh: It sounds very simple too, and it's definitely not simple. In fact, the progress towards it is absolutely glacial because many people don't believe that we should have a choice in how we die, which to me is amazing and also very unjust, unfair. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I agree. And you can spend a lot of time exploring how we got here, and I'm sure there's some value in that because it helps those of us who really do believe that people deserve to have that choice in how, where and when they die. It helps us to see where the challenges remain, by looking at the barriers and the things that have been blocking that- Faye Girsh: You know, I'm reading an interesting book now, Bob, called Modern Death. I don't know if you've seen it. By a Pakistani American doctor named Haider Warraich.  I don't know how you pronounce his name exactly. But he talks about how the way we die has changed so much in the last 50 years because of technology, insurance, hospital, everything. It explains a lot to me about how things have changed from when I was a kid, and the doctor would make house calls, and I assume that if we were dying, he would have given us a nice injection and sent us on our way, with the agreement of the family, but it's a long way from that now. It's a little bit back to what you do when you visit people at their homes, which is so unusual these days. Dr. Bob: That does sound like an interesting book, and I'd like to make sure that the listeners have the resources that our very experienced guests are recommending. So "Modern Death" is the name of that book? Faye Girsh: Yeah. Dr. Bob: I'm going to pick up a copy. I appreciate that. Faye Girsh: Subtitled "How Medicine Changed the End of Life". Very interesting. I haven't finished it yet. I don't think he is necessarily a proponent of medically assisted dying, but he certainly leads up to where it should happen. Because I do think that probably 40 years ago, your GP – there weren't specialties then – your GP would come to your house and if you and your family decided that your suffering was unbearable, something in his black bag would help you through to the other side, just to use all these euphemisms. But that's changed, and the laws have changed. The laws are changing for the better for sure, as far as giving you more choice at the end of life, but it becomes very legalistic and formalistic. And maybe that's good because now there are safeguards, but when men safeguard, they're another man's obstacles. It has become cumbersome and complicated sometimes for people to have a peaceful death. Dr. Bob: Well, it seems like it used to be a pact between the doctor and the patient and family. We didn't need all the legislation; people trusted that their physician was going to be there and help them make those difficult decisions knowing it was time. We also didn't have all the other options available. We didn't have all the intensive care units with all of the life-prolonging technology. We didn't have skilled nursing facilities, where people could be housed for months or years- Faye Girsh: Well, actually we didn't even live that long. We didn't live long enough to have a prolonged and agonizing death. We didn't die of these degenerative diseases that we have now. So, yeah. I mean, this book explains a lot of that, but this is something that we've sort of accustomed ourselves to over the years, ways to keep people alive. Faye: I live in a retirement community. I'm 84, and it's getting close myself, and it's very interesting for me to see people, my friends, get old, get disabled, wind up in the care center, or the memory unit at worst, and die quietly.   We really don't know how the end comes for most people unless they are very close friends. And then we get a little picture frame, and a white rose in the mail room and says we died. No telling how we died, or what we went through before we died. And then a little obituary says he died peacefully in his sleep, which is usually a lie. And then a little tombstone says, "Rest in peace," but before that, sometimes there is no peace, and sometimes these steps to getting dead are very difficult. Dr. Bob: Yeah, as I'm aware of through my own experience and career. That's an interesting ... it's really fascinating to think about that, living in these communities, many of which are very nice, right? They're beautiful. They're like luxury hotels or cruise ships. Faye Girsh: They are. Right. Dr. Bob: And then there are all these folks who come to the dining room, or you see them in the common areas, and at the activities, and then you just don't see them anymore. Faye Girsh: That does happen. Or you see them on walkers, and then in wheelchairs, and then you don't see them. Or if they're your neighbors, they move to the care center, which we have a very nice arrangement. And then the next thing, sometimes as you know, is their little picture and white rose are up there in the mail room. It's fine. It's a good way to experience death. We don't talk about it very much here, but I've appreciated knowing that, because in my life I wasn't among people who were dying, but now, that's what happens. And what I hope is that people can die the way they want to. And I know you spend time here too and you know the people who live here. They accomplished a lot. We say our motto in Hemlock Society is, "Good life, good death," which we actually stole from Christian Bernard, I think, who wrote a book. The heart transplant doctor wrote a book, I think, called Good Life Good Death. And many of us here have lived a very good life, but we often don't have a good death... I've only been here four years ... but who went out to [inaudible 00:10:00] parking lot and shot himself because he had early dementia. And other people who've struggled with dementia then wind up in the memory unit here for years. In fact, we're having a situation now with my very good friend, whose wife has been there I think now eight years. And they have treated her without consulting the family, but now the family has put their foot down, absolutely no treatment. So she gets nothing. No vitamins or anything. And she's never been healthier. And finally, the family's decision to withhold food and hydration. And of all the things that have happened, is the caregiver has protested and said she would sue the institution here for murder. So, that's a very interesting development. Dr. Bob: I wasn't aware that was happening. Faye Girsh: Well, if I were at lunch now, which I usually would be, I would be talking to this man whose wife it is and trying to enlist one of his children to speak at one of our Hemlock meetings on this subject, which is the refusal of treatment in dementia. A very complicated subject, because a demented person can't speak for herself or himself, but the loved ones can, the person who's been appointed as health care agent can. But often those wishes are violated. I will have another speaker at our January meeting, whose mother-in-law has been in the institution. Those who know Bonnie, was once a very active, beautiful, intelligent woman, and they had been coerced, shamed I guess is the word, into providing treatment for her twice, because she has to have her hip fixed because she fell. She has to have her ulcer treated. Even though she knows nothing it is has made an advance [inaudible 00:12:18]. She doesn't want treatment. So these things are very complicated, refusing treatment, medically futile treatment that's given so often. And hospice is not saying that they can fix everything, but really they can. They can fix a lot of the pain even, but alone the existential suffering that people have because they can't do what they are used to doing, they don't want to be doped up at the end to alleviate the pain. They want a peaceful way out, and yet they either don't know what's available to them, or they can't find a doctor who will help them use even our California law, The End of Life Option Act. So we have a long way to go. We are about to finish our 30th year as Hemlock Society of San Diego, and we're looking for new directions to go in. And for me, dementia is the direction because it seems so hopeless to be a long-time demented patient with no way out. Dr. Bob: That is just ludicrous, to think about that when there are so many people, there are so many people who, as you say, lived wonderful lives, they raised children, they had careers, they contributed, and if they were able to look at the scenario and to see what's happened to them and what's being done, and you ask them what they would want, we know that they would want to not be there. Faye Girsh: That right. Dr. Bob: They would be ready to ask somebody to mercifully end their lives. And I'm a physician, and I know that there are laws that prohibit that, and we can't just take it upon ourselves. And even if people have indicated that they would never want to be alive in those circumstances, our hands are tied. But it's just a crazy, crazy situation- Faye Girsh: Fortunately, we can look North and see what Canada is doing. And Canada is making much more progress than we are, which is not surprising of course. But the Canadian law that went into effect the same time the California law went into, that is June 2016, permits active euthanasia. That is a patient can ask for a lethal injection. It's so much better than what we have to struggle with, these expensive bad-tasting drugs that you have to be able to swallow, to use. That's not such a good solution.  And also, Canadians have made their laws much more liberal. That is, it doesn't just take a doctor to do it. A nurse practitioner can help you die that way. And in our law in California, you have to have a psychologist or psychiatrist to ascertain that you are mentally competent, and another doctor to determine that you are terminal, in addition to the first doctor. But in Canada, that's not the case. A lot of different people can ascertain that you're mentally competent. And again, it doesn't have to be a doctor to provide the lethal injection. And the criteria is not a terminal illness as ours is, which to me, it is not even relevant to the question of how much you're suffering, and how long you've been suffering, and how long you have got to suffer. A terminal illness means you're going to die within six months, which in some cases is a mercy, but some of these neurodegenerative diseases take years of suffering before death occurs. So, I think we have to look to Canada to change our laws. And we've had the Oregon-type model as our model law now in six jurisdictions, five states in the district of Columbia, but that law has existed now for 20 years. To me, it's inadequate, and it's time to move forward and to look at what other countries are doing.  And then, there's a whole collection of ... No, that's not true. There are some doctors and some organizations, and I'm thinking in particular of Doctor Philip Nitschke, who started in Australia and was the first doctor in the world to give somebody euthanasia at their request, under a law. And that was back in 1996. He's now living in Holland, but he doesn't believe that we should try to change the law at all. He believes that people should be able to do it yourself, get what's necessary, whether it's drugs or mechanical devices or whatever, and do it ourselves because he knows that doctors are resistant to doing this and the law is very slow to change. That's one point of view. I don't totally agree with it. I think it's very helpful to have somebody there, somebody with an organization like Final Exit Network, to be there with you, and certainly a doctor to be there with you if you can find a cooperative doctor like Doctor Bob Uslander to see you through this, because it's not just a one moment decision, you swallow something and you're dead. It's a decision that should be decided over months with consultation with your loved ones. But that is very difficult and complicated in our country. Dr. Bob: All of this is complicated for sure, so I appreciate you sharing your passion, and your viewpoints on this. If it's okay, I want to make one slight correction to one of the things that you indicated, about the process for the End of Life Option Act in California, in that it doesn't actually require a psychiatrist or a mental health specialist to weigh in- Faye Girsh: No. You're right. Dr. Bob: Only if the attending physician or the consulting physician feel that there is a mental health issue or a psychiatric issue that is impacting the person's ability to make a decision. Faye Girsh: You're right. It doesn't happen very often actually- Dr. Bob: No. Faye Girsh: That a mental health professional is required to make the decision about competency. I think in Oregon has happened very few times. We have- Dr. Bob: Yeah, because a physician is- Faye Girsh: Better data from Oregon than we have from many places else. We have 20 years of data that the government of Oregon has collected. No, you're absolutely right about that, Bob. Dr. Bob: Again, thank you for sharing. We definitely have strides to make. I think we both are feeling grateful that we have come to a place in California where people do have more choice and more options, but we do still need to continue pushing forward. There are still some issues and problems with the existing law. It doesn't address the needs of the people with cognitive impairment and dementia, and those are really challenging situations. Faye Girsh: And doctors are not being educated about what this law entails. I have a new primary care doctor that I talked to the other day at Scripps, and she didn't know anything about it. There's never been even, not only a policy described by Scripps but no education about the law at all. She didn't know what to tell me. She's going to find out and tell me later. But this is not acceptable. This is a law now, and even though everything is voluntary, so it's completely voluntary on the part of the doctor, the patient, the hospice, the pharmacist. That doesn't mean that people shouldn't be educated about it, and that's what we try to do in Hemlock. I just gave a speech to bunch of elder law attorneys, and before that to an Episcopal convention. And the more people we can talk to the better, but that's a drop in the bucket compared to the people who don't know what their rights are. And some hospitals have gone all out. Kaiser's very helpful in that respect, but my hospital, Scripps Clinic, they don't seem to know anything. It requires a massive educational effort, and it requires a little more cooperation and enthusiasm on the part of doctors and institutions, and definitely on the part of hospices. I think it's a disgrace that no hospice that we know of in this county will actually provide a doctor to do this for you. Many of them will refer to you, which is fine, but I think hospices should be able to assure a patient who comes for hospice care that if their suffering becomes too great, or they've had enough, that somebody will help them achieve a gentle death, which is what happens in Canada now, especially in Quebec, which has been the leader in this. The formally very Catholic province now, very progressive. And in Belgium and Holland. Their hospices will also provide peaceful death, voluntary euthanasia, but not ours. Dr. Bob: Not ours. Faye Girsh: And ours maintain that they can do everything in make dying fine for you and many of them can. I have no question about that. But for many people, there needs to be another option. Dr. Bob: And I always think about that when we hear from the palliative care and hospice folks, who are all very well-meaning, and compassionate, and they make it very clear that if the suffering becomes too great, then we can medicate people into unconsciousness. It's called palliative sedation, where you get medication so that you're no longer aware of your surroundings, no longer feeling pain, no longer feeling like you're struggling to breathe. And once you get medicated to that level, you will no longer be able to eat or drink, you won't have any nutrition, and eventually, you'll die of dehydration. And I understand that that is possible, and we for years have been doing that for or to patients. And my response to it is, if somebody has another option if somebody has the option of actually taking something on their own that will prevent that from being necessary, that they have the control, they get some of their power back, why wouldn't we want to make that available to them? Faye Girsh: I have debated that with so many hospice directors and doctors and nurses. I can't understand why the answer is not as simple as you make it. I mean, palliative sedation is very nice. I remember debating one hospice director, I guess she was, and she said, "No. Doctors should never help their patients die, never." But later she said, "When I see a patient in intractable suffering ..." well, she said pain, initially, but she was talking about suffering, " ... then, of course, I will administer something that will relieve them, and they won't wake up." Isn't that what I just said? No. Because the doctor has control over the decision, not the patient. Dr. Bob: Exactly. And I believe that's- Faye Girsh: And that's wrong. Dr. Bob: That's where the big divide is. The medical profession has so much ego, and we are unwilling to give control away. So instead of giving the patient and the family the ability to be empowered to have the option to act on their own, to make this determination, we need to do it for them or to them. We don't believe that people have the intelligence or the ability to make this determination of what's in their best interest. Faye Girsh: I'm not a great critic of the medical profession because I was married to one and I have given birth to one, and I like doctors very much in general. I've always liked the doctors I've had. It's some kind of paradox. I guess it's like politicians, you like the one you have, but then generally they're no good. I don't know what they need, education or something, and they need to be assured that they're protected from the law, because even though this law that we have, The End of Life Option Act, is clear that if a doctor does this, he or she is fully protected under the law. Somehow doctors don't believe it, and – again another generalization about what doctors think or do – they don't like to be bothered. There's a lot of paperwork ... you know this ... involved, there is not just, "Let's see. I write the prescription. Goodbye." You really should attend to your patients; you should find out what's going on with them. So they should be involved, and they don't want to be involved because that's not their job. I just saw a cartoon recently that said, "I'm a doctor, and I believe in preserving life at any cost." And the cartoons said, "Make sure you don't get that doctor." I mean, it's very nice. I do like people who are pro-life but up to a point. Up to the point where the patient says, "Okay. Death is not the worst option here. Staying alive under these conditions is worse, and I want to die gently and peacefully. And I don't want it to be a big secret, and I don't want to jeopardize anyone by helping me. Let's do it." And there's certainly more places in the world that are enlightened about this than we are. Dr. Bob: And I believe we're moving in the right direction as we both stated before. We have a lot of work to do, but we don't want to discount the fact that we are certainly in a better position than we were a couple years ago here in California. I try not to be critical of physicians. Many of my very good friends are physicians. I have spent a lot of time with some amazing physicians, and I think in general, doctors really do care a lot about people. They go into the profession because they're caring, and they want to help, and they want to do good. And it's not that they, in general, don't want to be bothered. They don't have the time; they're not allowed to have the kind of time that it takes to do this well. Many physicians are still very uncomfortable with the whole notion of death. When you go to medical school, and in your training, you would assume that there is no such thing as death because it's really never talked about. The textbooks don't mention anything about death. It's all about what we can do, how we can utilize the technology available to us, how we can do the right screening and prescribe people the- Faye Girsh: To prevent this from happening. Dr. Bob: So the training isn't there. A lot of people, I think, have to go through their own personal experience, they have to go through their own personal journey. Maybe have their own epiphany about what their role here is, and how they can best serve their patients. Faye Girsh: Bob, present company excluded, I don't think doctors need to be the agents of a peaceful death. In fact, when I was head of the National Hemlock Society, I started this program called Caring Friends where we educated our peers, older people like us ... I mean, I'm talking about the members of the Hemlock Society now, not you ... to work with people in their homes and tell them what means they could use to achieve a peaceful death, short of getting the drugs necessary. And there are many means. And of course one of them is not eating and drinking, but that's not the one we advocate. I'm talking now about the national organization called "Final Exit Network," which I was one of the founders, and that emanated from the Caring Friends program that I started at Hemlock. And we knew that doctors were not going to help, that we're not going to be able to get these drugs, which is the gold standard, but there are other ways. Now I'm using my Final Exit Network hat here–the guys at Final Exit Network teach people how to die peacefully, not using drugs, but using other means, which essentially lowers the oxygen in the brain, which causes a peaceful death but doesn't require drugs.   And there's an organization, a very loose organization, called Nutech, which has been working on this now for years, maybe 15 years, also started by Derek Humphry who started the Hemlock Society, New Techniques in Self-Deliverance. And I just went to a Nutech meeting in Toronto, where people from all over the world were there. It was a $5,000 reward for people who could come up with the best inventions so that people could do it themselves and die peacefully. So we're a long way from making an ideal situation, but there are situations that people can use, but that's not enough. I always gave the prototype of an 85-year-old woman. I'm about to be that. But an older person who's alone, who's sick, who may be partially blind, who is not mechanically inclined, a limit to what they can do to do this for themselves. So we do think that people should be there with them, and that's what they do in Final Exit Network. The Exit guide is present when people use these methods, and coaches them in how to use them. And we think we're covered under the First Amendment, but there's some litigation going on, which has challenged that assumption. Dr. Bob: Not surprising. Faye Girsh: No. But there are books, and videotapes, and YouTubes telling you how to end your life peacefully. And that certainly has its drawbacks because we don't believe that ... I mean, I am a psychologist by training, and I've worked with a lot of suicidal people, who with therapy have come to realize that suicide is not the answer to their problems. And it isn't. And there's a fine line between assisted dying and suicide, but generally, people who want help in dying would much prefer to live, but because of their disease or condition find that dying is preferable to living that way, whereas suicidal people don't want to live. They want to die. That's the difference. So if you make these methods available, then suicidal people have access to them, and that's arguable too. I mean, maybe it's better that they die peacefully than jump off bridges, as one of my very good friends did, or shoot themselves, as another very good friend did, and they could choose to die peacefully. That's a whole another discussion. Dr. Bob: Yeah. That's a whole another discussion. And I'm just thinking about, as I'm hearing you speak and discussing these topics that are certainly not part of the mainstream conversation that people are having, I'm just imagining that there are going to be people listening to this, who are squirming and feeling uncomfortable about these topics. And you know what? And that's okay. Faye Girsh: No doubt. Dr. Bob: These are things that we all really should explore and try to determine our own comfort level with them, and hopefully become more comfortable engaging in the entire spectrum of conversations about life and death. Faye Girsh: The Hemlock Society of San Diego, which has existed now for 30 years, is at a juncture of where to go next. We can continue having meetings and having speakers and everything else, but we do have to tackle these very naughty issues. And we are tackling them. Maybe we're the only organization in town if anywhere, that is doing it, but it does make people squirm. But we have a lot of people come to our meetings. They're all free. They're all open to the public, and they all deal with different issues about dying. To one meeting we had three veterinarians who talked about how they can help animals dying. It's so nice. Everybody was so jealous they wanted to grow two extra legs and a tail and be one of these animals that die in the arms of their loved one, peacefully and gently. A little shot in the paw and that's it. And then I've been a defender of Jack Kevorkian all these years. I thought, when he showed how his patient Tom Youk died, to 60 million viewers, that was a good thing, that we don't see people actually die and we don't even die on ICUs, or even in hospices. We don't see them junked out with drugs for days on end. We never see how people die except fictional, machine guns and that kind of thing. To see somebody get a lethal injection, keel over and he's dead, and how simple that was, and how desperately he longed for that relief from his ALS. This was the last patient that Doctor Kevorkian helped. And for that, Doctor Kevorkian spent eight years in prison doing a 10- to 25-year sentence that he got. For a doctor to come out and say this is what's important for doctors to do ... and the thing about Jack Kevorkian was there was nobody in the world practically, unless you were in the middle of a jungle somewhere, who hadn't heard of him, who didn't have an opinion about him, and who hadn't heard from his own patients why they wanted to die. And that kind of education thought, at that point, when Jack Kevorkian was I think in his seventh or eighth year of doing this, 75% of Americans believed that people should have assisted dying from a doctor. That's gone down considerably, because people don't hear about this, they don't engage in the dialogue, their doctors don't talk about it certainly, and it's up to us, the Hemlock Society of San Diego, and a few other organizations, to discuss this openly, so people know what the issues are. Dr. Bob: On that note, I think we're going to kind of wrap it up, but I do want to make sure that anybody who is interested in getting more information about anything that we've spoken about, that you've shared, has direction on how to get that information. I want to thank you for being a pioneer and for dedicating so much of your time and energy and money to this effort. There are many, many people who are indebted to you and have gratitude for the work that you and your tribe, your peers have done. Faye Girsh: Thank you very much, Bob. Dr. Bob: You're welcome. Faye Girsh: I'm getting to the point where a peaceful death is becoming more of an immediate issue, so I'm working extra hard, but I'm very glad you're around. Very comforting to me and many other people. Dr. Bob: And seeing you and being around you, you have vital energy, and I don't think it's going to be dissipating anytime soon. How do people learn more about the work that you're doing? Faye Girsh: Well, we have a website that's very informative, HemlockSocietySanDiego.org. And that will give you our phone number, which is 619-233-4418. We have, of course, an email address, which is ... I'm not even sure what it is. Dr. Bob: I'm sure they can get it off of the website, right? Faye Girsh: The website has all this information. And people are welcome to get on our email list to get a notification of our monthly meetings. And they're welcome to come, no charge. Although we will be having special meetings, I think now, for Hemlock members that we don't particularly want to share with the public, but that's another issue. Because we want people to be empowered the best way they can about ways to have a peaceful death. And not only for them, but we're having more young people come because their parents are dealing with this issue, or not dealing with it. Dr. Bob: And I've been to meetings, I've spoken at the meetings, and there's a wealth of information, and really some pretty incredible people there. I find that the level of intelligence and acceptance among the people who are really paying attention to these issues is very high. Faye Girsh: Yeah. And you've gotten to know some of them. Dr. Bob: I sure have. Faye Girsh: The ones that have had a peaceful death with your assistance. Maybe that's not the right word, but I don't know- Dr. Bob: That's fine. Faye Girsh: ... one has to be a very good- Dr. Bob: With my guidance. Faye Girsh: Guidance is a good word. Dr. Bob: And I've shared with our listeners some of the experiences that I've had and how powerful they've been. And the more people that I'm able to support and be with, the more strongly I feel about helping to spread the message and allow more people to understand how they can get this control, how can they be empowered when their life is coming to an end, and they're just like many of the people we've discussed. They're just not okay allowing this natural decline to decimate them further when they have a more peaceful, gentle option available. Faye Girsh: Thank you for doing this, Bob. And thank you for doing the podcast. I appreciate having an opportunity to talk about this. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Well, you're so articulate and passionate, and I look forward to our next conversation together. Faye Girsh: Absolutely. Dr. Bob: This is Doctor Bob Uslander, A Life and Death Conversation, until next time.

Derek Humpry is an author and principal founder of the Hemlock Society (now Compassion & Choices). Derek shares his poignant story about helping his wife, who was terminally ill, end her life and how he founded the Hemlock Society.     Derek's website: FinalExit.org Transcript Dr. Bob: Welcome to A Life and Death Conversation with Dr. Bob Uslander. I'm very excited to introduce you to today's guest, who is a gentleman who I recently had the pleasure of meeting and listening to during a presentation at a conference. And I just knew when I met and heard him speak that he is somebody who you needed to hear from. I could go on for quite a long time listing his achievements and his accolades in this introduction, but I don't want to take too much of our valuable time away from the conversation, so I will just give a little glimpse of the instruction to Mr. Derek Humphry, who is the founder of the Hemlock Society of the USA, past president of the World Federation of Right to Die Societies, and Derek has been an incredibly strong proponent of people having the ability to determine how and when they their lives will end when they are struggling. He's been very active through his entire life in this regard and is in large part responsible for the movement through in this country that is certainly effective here on the West Coast, in California, in Oregon, in Washington that has allowed people to have a peaceful end of life. And I owe him gratitude because he has allowed me to delve into a part of my career that has really been incredibly gratifying, and he's brought great relief to many, many people around the world. So, Derek, I just want to introduce you and thank you from the bottom of my heart for all that you've done. So welcome. Derek Humphry: Well, hello. Thank you very much for inviting me. It's been a worthwhile journey. I founded the Hemlock Society in 1980 when I lived in Santa Monica and developed it from there. And it was, I didn't do it in any obviously pioneering way thought, but it proved to be the start of the right-to-choose-to-die movement in America as we grew and grew and fought off our critics and published little books and held conferences, the right-to-choose-to-die movement swelled and improved across America ever since 1980. Dr. Bob: So let me ask, how did this all start? I know, and I heard the story, but I'd like people to hear where this movement originated and how it started for you. Derek Humphry: Yes. I was living in London. I was a reporter on the London Sunday Times. And I had a good marriage, a wife, and three sons, and we were getting along fine. And it's great fun bringing up three sons. But suddenly in 1973 my wife, Jean, said that she had a lump in her breast. We rushed her to the hospital, and various testing and so forth. And they had to perform a radical mastectomy, much to her shock and all of our shock. She recovered from that as best she could, but we have further testing of her lymph nodes and blood count and all the rest of it. And it showed that she had cancer deep in her system. It was too late. But we fought, and she fought, took all medical help available, kept her spirits up looking after the family and so forth. She kept it only in a close circle of friends or family did she say that she had cancer. But in about a year it turned to bone cancer, very painful, very difficult to be moving at all except with heavy pain medications. And then after nearly two years, it was really serious, and she nearly died. She was in the hospital in Oxford, England, getting the best treatment that was available back in 1975, and she recovered from one bout, and the doctor thought she wouldn't come out of that. But she did, and she had a fighting spirit. Then came my epiphany. She sat up in bed feeling pretty well in the hospital bed, and I was visiting her. And she said, "Derek, I want you to do something for me." I said, "What's that?" She said, "I've had enough of this pain and unconsciousness. It's getting near the end. I want to die at home. I don't want ..." She took hospitals pretty well, but she was in the cancer ward, and she'd seen too many people die with the families rushing in in the middle of the night to say their goodbyes and a lot of pain and tears. She said, "I want to die at home. I also want to end my life at the point when I feel the quality of my life is gone and that there's no more hope and no more chance of living. And I want you to help me." There wasn't a right-to-die movement in America or Britain to speak of. There were little token meetings, but it was not a subject of public discussion or knowledge. I think I would have had to go to a dictionary to look up the word euthanasia or so forth. I said, "What do you want me to do?" She said, "I want you to go ..." In a way, she prefigured the laws. She didn't know she was doing this, prefigured the laws that are coming into place in six states in America. And she said, "I want you to go to a doctor, explain what the situation is, and ask him for lethal drugs in which at the time of my choosing, I'm not ready yet, but it won't be far off, time of my choosing, I want to be able to take my life immediately in my bed at home with family nearby and so forth." I said instinctively, I know I didn't philosophize about it or ... "Okay. I'll help you." And- Dr. Bob: Do you recall what your initial reaction was to that? Of course, you wanted to be supportive, but did you have ... Do you remember how you felt about doing that at the time, conflicted? Derek Humphry: I remember saying to her, "If I was in your position, I would be asking you the same," so that I comforted her by saying, "We're on the same wavelength." I didn't want her to die at all, but having seen her pain and suffering for the last two years, well, understood why she would ask. She was a very strong, independent woman and knew her own mind. She'd seen her mother die about 10 years earlier of lung cancer, and she had to be with her father at her mother's bedside. I wasn't there. I was looking after the children somewhere else. The mother died an awful death apparently. She didn't realize she was dying, and the pain control was terrible. If I'd known about it at the time, I would have lodged a complaint against the doctor. But I wasn't on the scene. But this obviously triggered in Jean that when her time was closing, that she was going to do it differently than her poor mother had dealt with it. So I went to ... I puzzled over what I should do, how to get the drugs, and I thought, "I don't want to involve her own GP or lead cancer specialist in Oxford." I didn't feel it was right to involve them. They were good people, good men, and women, very helpful, but I've been a journalist in London. I knew a certain doctor who we'd worked on stories about medicine before, and I thought, "That's the fellow." So I went to see him, took him to dinner, and I said to him, told him what the situation was, and he questioned me closely about Jean's illness, the state it was, what we'd been through, roughly what sort of medications and so forth, and where she was. He turned to me and said, "She has no quality of life left. I will help." And he gave me the lethal drugs with which to; she could end her life. We shook hands on the bargain that I would never reveal his name, that that would be secret, and it's been secret to this day, although people have asked me who he was. I took the drugs home. I said to Jean, "I have the drugs. They're locked away in the medicine cabinet out of the way." And we got on with life, and she got on with life as best she could. She took another chemotherapy, which gave some momentary relief. And we had a happy Christmas in the end of 1974; I think that was. And then but by February, March, she was very, very ill and taking a great deal of what in England they call hospice mix. No, in America they call it hospice mix. In England, it's called Brompton cocktail. It's a mixture of drugs that suit one's particular illness. It's a sort of trial and error until the doctors can work out what this particular patient handles best. So we had that. And we continued, and things got worse. Then her ribs broke in a sort of accident, and that seemed to be her benchmark. She couldn't get to the bathroom anymore. She could hardly move. She couldn't get up in bed without a massive amount of painkillers. She couldn't sit up in bed. And I knew the end was coming, and I knew this question was going to come, so I was thinking about it but saying nothing. Then one day I got her to sit, managed to get her to sit up after taking the pain medications, and she calmly turned to me, and she said, "Is this the day?" That's a pretty rough question to answer when you're the ... We'd been married for 22 years and three children and had a happy life together. And I sort of gulped and said, "Well, if the pain is getting worse, you'll probably have ..." I was sort of stalling for the moment. I didn't want to rush an answer. "You'll probably have to go back into the hospital at the end of the week for more pain relief." And she said, "I'll die at one o'clock today." And so that was ... She was a very outspoken north country English woman and- Dr. Bob: Knew her mind. Derek Humphry: ... we talked all morning, and we shared our memories. The marriage had been very solid, but we'd had two quarrels, one over which house to buy and one over my moving to London from Manchester. We'd settled them, but she brought them up, and she said, "Well, I was right about the house, and you were right about moving to London." So we settled the two quarrels that we had. And she told me to go tell her father what had happened so that it wasn't like her mother's death, that hers was much more straightforward. At one o'clock, if she hadn't said, "Get it," I would have just continued talking. I left it, the initial movement, I left up to her. At one o'clock she said, "Go and get it." So I went and got the doctor's drugs, mixed them in a cup of coffee, put a lot of sugar in, and brought it back to her. I told the boys were lying around in the house. The previous evening Jean had sent me on a fool's errand to get something from the supermarket, and during that, my absence, she called in the boys and told them that she was going to die tomorrow. I was not part of that. She wanted me out of it for that communication with her sons. Dr. Bob : How old were the boys at that point, Derek? Do you recall? Derek Humphry: Sort of 17, 18, 19. I can't remember exactly. Dr. Bob: So young men. They were- Derek Humphry: But late teens. Yes, young men. And they'd seen her suffering. They'd helped me nurse her, helped. When I was absent, they would provide her drugs and things like that. They knew the situation, and they knew their mother was a determined woman. If she said something was going to happen and she was going to do, then she was going to do it. So I took the drugs in to her. As I passed through the living room, I said to the boys, "She's preparing to die," so that they were up to mark on it. I put the drugs down beside her, and she said, "Is that it?" I said, "Yes. If you drink that cup of coffee, you will die." She accepted that. I got on the bed and gave her a last hug and a kiss. We said our goodbyes. I got back on my chair so that she could lift the coffee straight up without ... And she picked up the mug of coffee and gulped it down, drink it down. And I sat there watching in awe. And before she passed out, she said, "Goodbye, my love." And that was it. She lingered for a while. Then she vomited a little, which frightened me. I thought, "Oh, dear." I didn't know at the time that right to die was not a subject of ... I never investigated closely or not ... She should've taken some antiemetics. Dr. Bob: As we do now. Derek Humphry: ... to prepare the stomach for that extremely toxic drug that was going to kill her. Anyway, she didn't vomit all that much. And she just quietly died. Dr. Bob: Were the boys with you at the time? Were they in the room or were they? Derek Humphry: No. They were in the next room. But when I went out of the room, I know they went into the room when she was dead and apparently said goodbye to their mother, and after my presence. And I called the local GP who looked after her for about two years and told him that Jean was dead. And he came out. He said, "I'll be around in an hour or so and sign the death certificate." When he came in and looked at her, and I kept out of the room deliberately. I didn't want to muddy the waters in any way or whatnot. And I was out in the garden, but he wrote down death from carcinomatosis, massive cancer. If he'd wanted to speak to me, I was there in the garden, and he could've called and said, "I want to talk to you, Derek," but he didn't. And he thought it was a natural death from her powerful cancer. Dr. Bob: Which it would've been before too long had she not taken this step. Derek Humphry: Yes. Dr. Bob: But it would've come after quite a bit, potentially quite a bit more struggle and suffering, right? Derek Humphry: Yes. Well, certainly she would've been dead within a month. That was definitely on the cards. Her doctors had told me that they would look ... They'd say, "She can come in to Oxford Hospital, and we'll look after her, or she can die at home." And I said, "She wants to die at home." And they said, "Fine. We'll provide as much comfort as we can." So that was how it ended. Dr. Bob: And that was 40 ... How old was she? Derek Humphry: She as 42. Dr. Bob: And that was 43 years ago, 1974. Derek Humphry: Yes. Dr. Bob: So 43 years ago. It sounds like you can ... I know that you've told this story not just a few times over the years, but it sounds like you can almost, it's almost like it was yesterday. You seem so clear that you can recollect the details so clearly. Derek Humphry: Yes. And she was so clear. She wasn't one who would aggravate over things. She wouldn't ... She'd talk things over, "What is this? What is that?" We'd had a pact that when she first asked me to help her that it would be a joint decision. She said, "I could be made woozy by all these drugs." And she said to me, "Back at the first opening of this, she said, "If I'm asking to die at the wrong time because there's been a cure for cancer or if there's more to do, don't help me. It's a joint decision." And so I went along with that. You have to stand by your partners at the worst of times. Dr. Bob: Well, she certainly sounded like she was very clear and wasn't hesitating at the time. And her strength, and her fortitude, and her clarity have had such a significant impact on many lives from that. Had she not made that decision, had she not asked you to support her in this way, it's hard to know what would have transpired and how the right-to-die movement might or might not have developed over time. So can you share how things developed from that point and how her gentle and peaceful death ended up leading to the next steps for you? Derek Humphry: Well, I had written. I was, what, 45 at the time, and I had published three non-fiction books, had modest effect with them. So I was a published author. So I decided to write a little book about this. I was rather ... I studied the subject after Jean died--no, before and after. And I went into the library of the Times of London, and I read up all the assisted suicide cases for the last 50 years. And what struck me was that here were spouses, male and female, dragged into court. Assisted suicide was and is a crime in Britain. And I was shocked by what I read in modern history about this. And what really struck me was that these people that I could see were never sent to prison although they were vulnerable to 12 years in prison, the maximum sentence. But the judge would always say, "You've done wrong, but it was done in a spirit of compassion." Then he would suspend the sentence or put them on probation and things like that. I thought, "Well, this is a wrong law." If it's a crime, well then it should be punished as a crime. But this is not a crime, and it should be modified." So that got my dander up. And so I wrote a little book called Jean's Way in which I told the truth, the harsh truth of what had happened, the good things, the good times, and the bad times, and how Jean had handled it and so forth, and about the doctor, whose name I did not release. And when I took the book 'round to several publishers in London, nobody would publish it. Even though I was already a published author and staff writer at the London Sunday Times, they said, "Oh, no. It's too harrowing. Oh, no, it'll make people cry." And my own editor, Harry Evans, the great editor, he looked at it, considered it, and he said, "No, I don't want my readers crying on Sunday morning." And I said, "What's wrong with a good cry for genuine reason? This is part of human life." But he wouldn't. He wouldn't publish it. Anyway, I found a little publisher who was willing to take the chance, and they published it. And the entire book was sold out in a week. In five days it was gone. The public snapped it up, and I sold the paperback rights, and the Norwegian rights, and the Japanese rights, and Spanish rights. So the publishers and my editor were wrong. People do want to read genuine cases about this, sincere cases. And a huge amount of the public is interested in peaceful and careful dying. So that was that. Then I moved to America to work for the Los Angeles Times. I wanted to change, and the book became very controversial, and I was invited onto lots of television shows, the Donahue Show. All of the big afternoon television shows, all of them invited me on to talk. And it began to stir interest, and I began to get huge mail from people, and they could reach me at the Los Angeles Times. They would just write, "Derek Humphry, Los Angeles Times, Los Angeles," and that would get me. And people said to me, what are you going to do about this? And I said, "Well, I'm thinking," and this question kept coming up. And so I began to feel, "Well, I'll set up an organization to help people as best we can and long term to change the law so that this could be done thoughtfully, legally by willing doctors according to law and guidelines. And so I set up the Hemlock Society in August of 1980, announced it at the L.A> press conference. I remember one reporter said to me, "Are you going to be in the yellow pages?" I said, "Of course. This is not going to be a covert organization. This is going to be straightforward. But we're not going to break any laws if we can help it. We're not that way. We're in the business of changing laws." But meantime I wrote a little book called Let Me Die Before I wake, which a guide to how to do it yourself. This first book was on the right today, well, second if you call Jean's Way as one. It was true cases of people dying, taking their lives, and what drugs they used, and how they handled it. I went around America interviewing people who were willing to talk to me about the death of a spouse or a child. And I gathered these stories together, published it in a little book, which sold continuously for the next 10 years to mostly members. It wasn't a bookstore book; it was people heard of the Hemlock Society, and I did a number of radio and television programs. Gradually the membership at Hemlock Society grew from nothing to 47, and I had a- Dr. Bob: 47? Derek Humphry: Yeah. I had a- Dr. Bob: It's interesting. I meet people in my practice, and many of these older residents of these community are card-carrying long-term members, and they're so proud of it. These are people who are very successful, intelligent, and they're the folks who have always been able to kind of be self-determining and not just accept what is being handed to them but want to really determine the course of their lives. I don't see as many younger people, and you can share your thoughts on this and what's happened since, but not as many younger people seem to be connecting and kind of opening themselves up to this sort of connection because the people who are the older people who are these long-term members of the Hemlock Society, they had to find out it and join when they were about my age in their 40s and 50s. I don't hear a lot of 50- and 40-year olds these days engaging in this conversation, which is interesting. It's mostly the older folks who are looking more- Derek Humphry: I don't agree with you there. Dr. Bob: That hasn't been your experience? Okay. Derek Humphry: My experience is different. I have two websites. I have a blog, and I have a Listserv, and I find that the ratings of people, it varies a great deal. I get an uncomfortable amount of students approaching me, wanting to interview me and to know background, and so forth because they're writing projects on it all over America. And I get some end of term or so forth, I get swamped with these. So I think there is fairly across the ages group of support, true most support from people over 50, and that's very often because they've seen their parents or grandparents die in circumstances that they would not want for themselves. Dr. Bob: That makes complete sense. Derek Humphry: Whereas young people have probably not. Thank goodness they've not seen loved ones die. But we older people, of course, have, so and- Dr. Bob: I appreciate that perspective. I appreciate ... Obviously, you've been in this world for longer and are very tapped in to it. So I appreciate knowing that from in your experience, that there are people across the age ranges who are paying attention and supporting. So what happened with the Hemlock Society? I know that there were changes that occurred. Derek Humphry: Yes. Well, because the movement grew bigger, and other organizations formed. Ten years after I formed the Hemlock, Dr. Kevorkian came on the scene with his very controversial tactics and actions. And of course, the media were fascinating with Kevorkian. I mean, they'd never heard of a doctor with a suicide machine that killed patients on request. So he got an enormous amount of ... far more publicity than I got. I washed with interest. In terms of informing, because a lot of people only watch television, and they don't tend to read books and papers, and that's their choice. So suddenly Kevorkian offers so many television appearances. We're telling people about the right to choose to die, and he helped directly with drugs 130 people to die and could have going on doing that. He was twice charged with assisted suicide, and the juries wouldn't convict him. He was acquitted. But then he wanted to make it a bigger impact. He believed that all this publicity would make the medical profession change its mind about assisted dying. He was wrong, but he persisted, very persistent, tough man. And he performed active voluntary euthanasia, a man ,very sick man came to him and asked to be helped to die. The family was behind him, and he was a very, very ill man And when Kevorkian ended his life, this man's life by injection, and he filmed it, and he got 60 Minutes to put it on film, and on the 60 Minutes program, Kevorkian looked down at the camera and pointed his finger, and then said to the district attorney of his area up at Michigan, "Either you prosecute me, or I've won." Very [defact 00:36:24], strong ... He threw down the gauntlet to the legal people, who were not going to prosecute him again. They've got fed up with him. But this time they had to take him to court because he was such a defiant act. And they were willing to look past assisted suicide, but death by injection, they were not. That was ... They charged him with manslaughter and second-degree murder. And he was convicted. He'd overstepped the mark because of assisted suicide before the courts, you can plead ... It was something you had to do, something that was by choice and by agreement. Although it's strictly it's against the law, juries accepted that when they heard the cry is from the family and what the dead patient had said and so forth. Now, with second-degree murder, you cannot bring evidence of compassion and sympathy. That's not allowed in Britain and America under a murder charge. You either did it, or you didn't do it. You can't say, "He asked me to kill me." You can't say, "I did it for a good reason." That argument, the judge will immediately stamp on any argument, and he has to. That's the law that's in the practice. Bob Uslander: I imagine it may have an impact on the sentencing and on how the punishment is meted out? But it sounds like not on the actual determination of guilt or innocence. Derek Humphry: Yes. Dr. Bob: Is that correct? Derek Humphry: Yes, and he repeated his thing, "This action of mine, helping this man to die was merciful, and the law should be changed," and all the rest of it. He said to the jury, "Do I look like a murderer?" Of course, he didn't. Dr. Bob: Of course not. Derek Humphry: But the judge was pretty strong on him. He'd appeared before her before, and he signed a bond that he would not help any people to die, and of course, he obviously broke that bond. And so the jury found him guilty, and the judge said that "This is the end of your actions on this." And he was sent to 10 years to life; I think it was. It was a certain period to life, and he went to prison. He appealed, but he had no grounds for appeal. He kept on appealing, but they didn't have good grounds for appeal. That's the way the homicide laws are: You either did it, or you didn't do it. He had a film with himself doing it. So his work ... He did eight years in prison, served it very bravely, and nobly, and was let out after eight years instead of life on a promise that he wouldn't do it anymore. And he stuck to that promise. A few years later he died of kidney disease. He certainly had his impact. But where I, and I'm not medical profession, I'm not a doctor, of course, only a journalist, and people would write to him and say, "Will you help me?" He would write them back or call them back, and he would say after he'd saw the circumstances, "Yes. Fly up here." So people that he accepted would fly to Detroit, check into a motel. And he would help them to die next day. Now, that upset the medical profession. They said, "Look, that's not the way you practice medicine." Even if the end result was a Kevorkian-type result, you would evaluate a patient. You get to know a patient. You make sure it's a genuine, compassionate request. So he didn't move the medical profession at all. I'm afraid, and- Dr. Bob: Right. And that's really what's developed of course in the states that do have loss that allow physician-aided dying. Those issues are addressed. And as somebody who's practicing in that realm, I can assure you and everyone listening that the relationships are very important, and this is not a quick transaction, right? Derek Humphry: Yes, not a casual thing at all. There has to be understanding and friendship and signed documents saying that that's proving that this was the patient' own decision, the witnessed documents and whatever. It must be done carefully. And Kevorkian, one, in the start of his antics, he came to me, and he said that "Will the Hemlock Society send me patients?" And I said, "No. I don't believe in ..." Oh, he said he was going to start a suicide clinic. And I replied to him straight off in my office, he came to my office, asked for help, and I said, "No, I don't believe in people being helped assisted dying in clinics. This is something that must be done in home with knowledgeable doctors and agreeing families. This is not acceptable at all." He got very angry and stamped out of the office because I wouldn't help him. And I said, "Alright." Even before he got out, I said, "Alright. We have to change the law, not break it." Dr. Bob: Right, not circumvent it. Derek Humphry: Anyway, so he never spoke to me again. Dr. Bob: First of all, thank you for that history lesson. It's fascinating, and I now a lot of people will benefit from having a greater understanding of how the right-to-die movement really began and where Dr. Kevorkian fits into it. Share with me a bit, if you would, about what you're doing now. What is life like for Derek Humphry these days? Derek Humphry: Well, I'm 87 years old, in pretty good heath instead of some of the things like nerve-ending damage, or losing my hearing, and so forth that old people suffer from, but I don't have any major illnesses or terminal illnesses. I resigned from the Hemlock Society seven years ago. It was getting too big. I'm a writer, not a CEO, and so I handed it over. A few years later it merged into Compassion and Choices, into another ... It was merged, and the Hemlock Society doesn't exist anymore, except Hemlock Society of San Diego: They've kept their name and a very strong chapter down there. Dr. Bob: Yes, good friend sort of mine, and I will be introducing the listeners to some of the folks from the Hemlock Society of San Diego in future podcasts. Derek Humphry: Yes. I run a little organization that supplies quality literature about the right to choose to die, about assisted dying. And my book Final Exit, which is the guidebook as to how you can practice your own self-deliverance, what you must beware of, the dos and don'ts, the law. It's all described in journalistic terms. I'm a very straightforward writer. The book Final Exit has been selling since 1991, selling today. I sell about four or five a day. It's in the bookstores. It's on Amazon, and so forth. And it's sold all over the world. Most languages have taken, and even China and Japan have taken it. And then I've just published a memoir of my life, Good Life, Good Death, which is the story of my life before 50. I was 50 when I started the Hemlock Society, but it describes my life there, and then the second half about Jean's death and how the right-to-die movement numeric grew and grew. I moved to live in Oregon from Los Angeles, and I discovered that Oregon had a system of you could change the law by citizens initiative, that citizens could vote in their own law. It's quite complicated to do it. So in 1993, we set about, I gathered people around me and Hemlock Society of Oregon. I met other good people, doctors, and the lawyers, and nurses, and laypeople, and we got a citizens initiative going in Oregon in 1994, and we learned from other failures that we'd had previously in California and Washington. And to everybody's surprise, we won. We won by 2%, and the right-to-life movement sprung into action, got an injunction against us, stopped it. Then we fought that injunction off. Then they brought another one in, and they delayed the law for three years, and they called another vote, a state-wide vote in Oregon. They called another vote. And it was the biggest mistake they ever meant. We won by 4% the next time. We doubled our gain. So the vote, it was twice voted on in Oregon. And the law went into effect in 1998, and has worked- Dr. Bob: Yes, it has, and then- Derek Humphry: ... very satisfactorily ever since, and I think- Dr. Bob: Yeah, and then laws, the law in Washington became essentially modeled after that, and California and now Colorado, and I understand that there are initiatives and bills in many other states. So we are I think the progress continues. Derek Humphry: Yes. It's slow progress, and people would like to see more, but in a democracy and a free country like America, you've got to go step by step. Dr. Bob: Yes, you've got to go through [crosstalk 00:49:14]. Derek Humphry: Interesting. In Britain, it's still a crime to assist a suicide, but the Chief Prosecutions Department in London has issued guidelines. This is two years ago. They issued guidelines as to when they would prosecute a person and when they would not, what their markers were, what their standard was. And I agreed with it. I thought, "That's ..." I could see that I was ... Oh, there was a ... After the cheese, we came out, he police came to me and said, "Did you do this?" And I said, "Yes, I did. Oh, yeah." I said, "If you take me to court, I'll throw myself on the mercy of the court." I did help her. But the public prosecutor decided not to prosecute me. He used a clause in the law that if he felt one way about it, he could decline prosecution. And in Britain, they have this new law. They still haven't changed the law in Britain, and though they've tried the Oregon law two or three times, it never gets through Parliament. But they do have these guidelines which you can read there on the Internet and everywhere, which says if you assist a loved one, it can't be strangers, if you assist a loved one under these circumstances, I can't spread them all out now, but intelligent circumstances, then we are not likely to prosecute. If you do it for monetary reasons, or selfishness, or any criminality, then you will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Dr. Bob: As it should be. Derek Humphry: So go ahead. Dr. Bob: No. I said, "As it should be," right? I know that sometimes there can be nuances, but we do need to be protecting ... We need those protections in place. Derek Humphry: Oh, yes, undoubtedly. We're moving towards doing it. And I think that the whole change in America society is swinging, going to swing in our favor. I mean, who would've thought 10 years ago that there would be gay rights as clear as they are now, that there would be same-sex marriages? Who would've thought that a few years ago? But it's gone through, and the Supreme Court approved it. So there is a change in attitudes. Dr. Bob Bob: There is. Derek Humphry: And younger people are more open to intelligent decisions instead of old-fashioned and religious decisions. Bob Uslander: Well, you were ahead of your time, my friend, and you were it sounds like an accidental pioneer. I personally and professionally am grateful. We will be kind of carrying the torch and continuing in the efforts that you and many of your peers have put forth. And there are many, many people who owe you gratitude for going out and being willing to put yourself out there because it wasn't the easy path. It wasn't the path of least resistance by any stretch. I know that. Dr. Bob: So, Derek- Derek Humphry: ... had some ups and downs. Dr. Bob: yeah. Well, no doubt. And there is more work to be done. Derek Humphry: Oh, yes. Dr. Bob: There is quite a bit, but we also want to, like you were indicating, we want to recognize and appreciate the strides that have been made. And we are, I feel like we're moving clearly in the right direction. Derek Humphry: Yeah. I hope so. Dr. Bob: If people want to connect with you, and certainly you discussed a few of your books, I know there's others, but Let Me Die Before I Wake was one; Final Exit; Good Life, Good Death, which I have a copy of, and I can't wait to crack it open and dive into it. What is the best way for someone to learn more about you, be able to access your blog or give access to your books? Derek Humphry: My main website, which is the name's easily remembered, and then that leads you on to my other websites and blogs. It's www.finalexit.org. I'm not a nonprofit organization. If you go to finalexit.org, you could then see how you could move on to our bookstore very clearly or join a blog or the Listserv. So that's the easiest way to get in contact with us, finalexit.org. And my latest book is my memoir of all these years before '50 and the turbulent years since 50, and I call it Good Life, Good Death, so not all about death. There's quite a lot of humor and irony in other parts of it. And it's available through me or Amazon or so forth, but prefer you bought it from me. And you can find it through finalexit.org and get it at the discounted rate. Dr. Bob: Wonderful. Well, Derek, I just want to thank you for taking time and sharing so openly, and, again, for everything you've done to move, I think to move humanity forward. Derek Humphry: In a small way, and it's been very rewarding. I've built up a huge friendship and wonderful friendships, and people to work with on these calls, and particularly down in San Diego there seems a real hotbed of thoughts and action about this subject. Bob Uslander: Yeah, well, I know you've got some very good friends and admirers down here, and I'm one of them. So I'll look forward to continuing this friendship, and I know that we'll be back in touch soon. So I'll be signing off. Thank you so much, and we all appreciate you. Derek Humphry: It's been good talking to you. Dr. Bob: Okay, Derek. You take care of yourself. Derek Humphry: Okay. Thanks very much.  

In a very candid and poignant conversation, Bill Andrews' sons share what their dad's end-of-life experience was like for them. Hear how they worked as a team to help their dad have the best death.     Note, if you haven't already listened to their father's episode, please click here to listen to Bill Andrews share why he chose to end his life after battling ALS. Transcript Dr. Bob: This episode is a follow-up to a previous podcast with Bill Andrews, a patient of mine who ended his life on October 23rd, 2017, using The End of Life Option Act, also known as Physician Aid in Dying, or Death With Dignity. The law, which became effective in California in June of 2016, allows a competent adult resident of California with a terminal illness to request from their attending physician a prescription for medication that will end their life in a peaceful and dignified manner. Bill Andrews had ALS, also known as Lou Gehrig's Disease. He was a surfer, a thrill-seeker, and an adventurer prior to the onset of this illness. He also was a devoted son, father, and grandfather. I recorded a podcast with him four days before he ended his life. Two of his sons were present for that interview, as well, and all three were with him when he died a few days later.  I invited Bill's sons, Chris, Eric, and Brian, to join me and share what they had learned from this experience, and to help carry on their father's legacy by helping others understand more about what it's like to help a loved one through the Aid in Dying process. Bill was a pioneer, and he was also a humanitarian. He wanted his death to have value for others, which I'm hopeful that these podcasts can help accomplish. This discussion is fairly graphic and detailed. Some people may find some of the content uncomfortable. Others will find it gripping and refreshing. I found it incredibly inspiring, to hear the words of these intelligent, thoughtful and grieving young men as they share what they went through as a family and honor their father, Bill Andrews. Please share this with others who may benefit and feel free to head to my website, integratedmdcare.com/newsite1, for additional information and support and other topics related to life and death. Welcome to another life and death conversation. This is Dr. Bob Uslander, your host and the founder of Integrated MD Care. Today is gonna be a bit of a different format, we're doing a group podcast, and I have a few gentlemen here with me who I shared a pretty special experience with just a couple months ago. I did a podcast interview with Bill Andrews; you may have listened to that one. Bill was quite a character, well loved and well respected, a gentleman who made the brave decision to end his own life after struggling with ALS for several years. I did an interview with Bill just a few days before he did end his life and he did it in the company and the presence of his family, and his sons, Brian, Chris and Eric, have decided that they wanted to speak and share their perspective and help others who may be trying to figure out how to navigate this terrain and how to support each other and their loved ones through this process. So I'm grateful and very please to introduce you to Brian, Eric, and Chris Andrews. Thanks for being here guys. Patient Son: Thanks, doctor. Patient Son: Thank you. Dr. Bob: Okay. There's a lot of things that we can talk about. There's a lot of different components to this, but one of the things I want you to share ... And you were on that podcast when we talked to your dad, and we got a little bit of your perspective on that, but he was the star of the show. You guys were in the background, but it was nice to have that. Now I'd like you to, in memory of him, in honor of him, we know that he was very, it was really important to him that people understood that this was an option and they understood why he took this option. Why he made the choice. From your perspective, can you share a little bit about why you felt it was so important for him to share his story? Patient Son: This is Brian. Dad loved being a pioneer in life. He liked being out in the forefront doing things in business that were new and innovative, and in his action sports lifestyle, surfing big waves, motor crossing areas that people had never been. I think he really felt good about being a pioneer and doing something here that was newly available. Dr. Bob: Okay. Patient Son: He really wants people to hear his story, and he was really happy to have done that, the podcast with you, and he really wants to get this information out for people considering this. Dr. Bob: That's cool. It's interesting to think about that, the pioneering spirit. I relate to that. I'm kind of, as a physician, a bit of a pioneer in this realm. Of course, had he not been dealing with a terminal illness that was challenging him every day and getting worse, he probably would have found other ways to pioneer, right? Patient Son: Yeah. Dr. Bob: But this was an opportunity for him to take his own experience and what he had to deal with and go through and hopefully allow others to benefit from it. So, not just being a pioneer, but being a humanitarian, I think. Patient Son: He's always loved helping people and helping to share wisdom and teach and coach. That's just the kind of guy he was, so yeah, this is good. Dr. Bob: Yeah. How long before he actually, his life ended, did he start talking about this being an option for him? Patient Son: I don't he knew it was an option to be honest with you 100%. But I think it was something that we discovered along the way, and it might have been Brian who brought it to his attention as an option to look into. Dr. Bob: Okay. Patient Son: We were reading all about ALS and how it was gonna end. But the question was when and how right? So we were just learning so much about it and reading about it and meeting people, going to support groups. You know at some point it's gonna end. The average time was supposed to be two to three years, and so we didn't know how long. It turned out to only be, from diagnosis, it turned out to only be a year for dad. Through that journey of reading about that we read about this option and talked about it. Dr. Bob: And so you discussed it with him. Did you guys discuss it with each other first? Patient Son: We did. We shared it with each other and just, you know, it was earlier on. I think that was maybe in the first month or so after his diagnosis. It was around the holidays a year ago. We had read about that and said, "Well, this is something we should keep our eye on." We knew we were going to go through a journey together. We just wanted to have that as something to learn about and so we did. I think dad was also reading on his own and I'm sure he read about it as well. It's something we ended up talking about together. Patient Son: ALS was not something that I think any of us knew anything about prior to his diagnosis. It's the type of thing we all had to be learning about as we were going through it. We were also trying to form opinions about it as we were going through it. I think that when Brian came across the Death with Dignity website, and there were some other materials that kind of lead us to that path to look at that. It wasn't like, "Hey, what do you guys think?" It was just like, "Let's just read this and try and understand this a bit." The whole process was a lot of like learning, talking, digesting everything. Like facts, emotions, decisions, kind of all doing it simultaneously. But yeah, we really, it was something that we brought to his, for him. Dr. Bob: Which is unusual. You don't have much other exposure to this, but it's unusual that families bring it to a person. In my experience, most of the time, the individual is the one who has been either, for years has been kind of secretly knowing that if things got to a certain point if they develop these challenges, that they would want to look for that out. But most of the time, the family members bring ... the patient, the one who's dying, brings it to the family members and they have to try to convince the family members that it's the right thing for them. That's what I see more often. I think it speaks a lot to your relationship with him and your level of love and trust, that you felt that you could bring something like that onto the table and talk about it as a family looking at all the different options that were out there. This is never the first option. This is never what anyone is hoping for. It's always after exhausting all the other possibilities. But as it turns out in many cases, it's the best of the various options that are out there. So you guys, at what point did you speak of this to a physician? At what point did, and I know, but for the listeners there, what was the path that was taken once it was discussed as a family? Patient Son: We had seen one of dad's primary physicians, and they had a good relationship with one another. End of life, quality of life was a big conversation between those two, especially within the last year. We weren't a part of those conversations until recently when we started going to the appointments with dad, you know, having to take him there and so forth. So being there gave us exposure to some of those conversations, and it was no surprise to his physician, approximately two months before dad left us, that we went to him with that formal request. He was ready for that call. Dr. Bob: Okay. And even though he wasn't necessarily familiar with the specifics or how to put things in place, he was receptive and willing to support your dad through that? Patient Son: Very much so. Dr. Bob: Great. I know that that's ... How long was it between that conversation and when he reached out to me? Do you have any idea? Was there much time lapse in there? Patient Son: Yeah. He doesn't know the exact time. Patient Son: I think it was about four to six weeks. We had the conversation saying, "We're ready to move forward." We had some learning to do on our side that took some days and some weeks. Our physician wasn't familiar with the process whatsoever, so he needed to do his own research as well. Two, three weeks went by, we realized together, with the physician, that we were at a stalemate. It was at that point that we decided to explore other options and getting some additional help, and that's how we met you. Dr. Bob: Great, yeah. I had met him. I had a prior relationship with this physician. He, I guess put the word out that he was looking for someone who knew more about it. Patient Son: He did. Dr. Bob: And then we connected, and I think it worked out well. He got to be involved, as everybody wanted because he had that relationship and you got the benefit of working with someone who knew how to get you down that path. Patient Son: Yeah, you ended taking over as the primary and then he took over as the supporting physician. Dr. Bob: Right, it worked out really well. Patient Son: It worked out great. Everything was smooth once we got rolling on that program. Dr. Bob: And he deserved that, he deserved smooth sailing because there's a lot of folks who start down this path and they just hit one roadblock after another, one obstacle after another. And either they struggle for longer, or they often get passed the point where they can even take advantage of this, which is really unfortunate. Patient Son: We actually had that as a time constraint, because dad has the ability to walk and his arms were getting really weak, and his hands, gripping was getting weak. We had to start hand feeding him in his final week. So it wasn't too much time left because he could life a cup with a few ounces of weight and drink when he needed to do, even do any other way to self-administer. Self-administering was a requirement, so we had a time horizon that was limited. So we were getting a little bit, a little nervous about that as time marched on, which is another reason we contacted you to help get things moving. Because he really wanted that, he had talked about having three options. He could just let the disease take his course and he'd starve to death and wouldn't be able to breathe. He didn't want to go through that, but that would have been his second choice. The other option was to be kept alive through any medical means possible, feeding tube and ventilator. He did not want to do that. So that's what knew right from the beginning, he did not want to be kept alive, didn't want to be bed-ridden, didn't want to be having this, any medical means to keep him going. Because he lived a great life, and he was ready to go, so that was the last of the options, and this became his leading options hands down, was to take this California End of Life, with a graceful ending on his terms, not having the disease run its course all the way to the end. He was getting very close. We were only I think a few weeks away at the most.  Dr. Bob: As things were changing? Patient Son: Yeah, things were changing pretty fast for him. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I know that it's hard to even imagine how frightening that would be. Even though he knew that he had plan B, but he knew that that was going to be difficult for everybody. It was going to be challenging for him, and it would have been difficult for the family to watch somebody going through that. So I know that he was very, very determined to be in control. We know that he set a date, and setting a date is probably a bit challenging because you have children who live in different parts of the country, and he wanted to be accommodating.  He wanted to make sure that everybody could be there and participate, but he didn't want to push it off too far because he was worried about the possibility that he would lose the ability. He also didn't want to cut offany more of his life than he had to because he loved the people who were around him. He still loved life; he just hated the circumstances. So when I talked with him, he was four days out from the date that he had set. We knew at that time that he was not going to change his mind, he was determined. Can you talk a little bit about what it was like from your perspective to be setting a date for your father to be ending his life? Patient Son: That's a terrific question, Chris. Do you want to start Eric? Patient Son: Yeah, I feel like jumping in. I think this is sort of like the piece that was ... I think were saying it was a little morbid, but it was also really amazing. It ended up being fascinating. Typically, when someone dies they die, and then they're gone, and you have to deal with everything all at ones. You have to deal with your emotions and the planning and logistics. You have to deal with everything all at once. But what this afforded us was an opportunity to chip away at all these things. We knew his day was approaching, so we all knew that we could say our goodbyes. It also meant that we could be emotional one day and they be very pragmatic another day, and just say, "What should we take care of today?" Because we had time, we didn't have to deal with it all at once. You could deal with it as you were leading up to the day. It was really comforting. It gave everyone the time and the space to wrap things up in a way that we all needed to individually. I always tell people, it's like a really weird experience, but I got to write his eulogy and then read it to him. There was one part that I didn't say very well, and so I actually rewrote a part of it and then read it again to him. No one gets to do that. I thought that that was a really special opportunity that this afforded us, that I found fascinating. Patient Son: His, dad's terms were reverse engineering. He was an engineer. He liked planning things. His goal was to pick a date that would work well for the family. Once we did that, then all the other pieces fell into place. So picking the actual date was pretty easy for us, because dad was not doing well at all, getting worse day by day, having a harder time day by day, so the sooner, the better.  He wanted to take advantage of the quickest it could happen, you know after the process, which was about a little longer than two weeks, 14, 15 days, something like that. So we worked together, the three sons and dad, to pick a date that would work best for everybody. Then, from there, worked backwards to what he wanted to do and what we wanted to do leading up to that date. Patient Son: Cool. Eric, you should tell him about the day before, like what ... Patient Son: Do you want to get into that or some of the things that happened before then? [crosstalk 00:19:41] Dr. Bob: No, no. I think it would be fascinating, but do you have anything you wanted to add- Patient Son: Yeah, I'll comment on the date. Dr. Bob: ... about setting the date? Patient Son: Yeah, it was a powerful, impactful moment to set the date. We bounced around on phone calls and texts, trying to pick a date. Dad, when he was ready, he was ready. He was, "As soon as possible," but I want to make sure it works out for all of us because we have our families and birthdays and holidays. He was ready to go, time off work. He was really concerned about a date that would work for all of us, but he was ready, so of course, we wanted to accommodate him with as early as we could pull it off. So we bounced around a couple of dates. We had one and then we actually switched. We had to have Chris come out from New York, and thinking about your family when they would come out. I would just say that it was a heavy moment to set the date, but also it was very freeing at the same time because we did have it on the calendar. We circled that date, and then we could reverse engineer it and start to plan all these activities. So it kind of gut us unstuck and it started some real positive moves to happen, to have that. But it was powerful. Dr. Bob: I imagine it amazing freeing for him too. Patient Son: It was. Dr. Bob: I mean it sounds ... I think that I hear families talk more about how knowing the date makes it more real, and sometimes even more uncomfortable. You guys are unusual in that I get the sense that you guys are all, you were so deeply connected with your dad that you were experiencing this as he was experiencing it, not separate. I mean yeah, you have to think about how it's going to impact you and deal with those feelings, but I really felt like you completely put him first, and that was the only thing that really mattered, was making sure that he got what he needed to get, and with as little interference or struggle as possible. Patient Son: Yes, it's very true. I think we're just like every other family; nobody's perfect. We've all had our disagreements throughout the years and certainly some tough times all growing up; things weren't always perfect. But the disease brought us together, and then this decision brought us together even closer, which was fantastic. Dr. Bob: Cool. That's a gift. Patient Son: It was. We all had our own unique relationships with him for sure. When the disease diagnosis was given a year prior, we said, "We're going to really bond as a team." We had a team name, Team Keep Paddling, dad's a big surfer, right? So he always said, "Just keep paddling. If you ever want to give up, just keep reminding yourself to keep paddling. One more wave, paddle, don't give up. Bust through the white water and get out there and catch that last wave." So that's what, we formed our team name, and we were all about being together. It's actually the best team I've ever been on in my life, in any sports team or work team. This team, this Team Keep Paddling, was the best team I've ever been on. Dr. Bob: That's wonderful. I just had an image that came to me. I'm sure that your dad taught each of you to surf. Whether you kept surfing or not, at some point, I imagine that he'd spent his time pushing you into the waves and getting you up there. I just had this image of you guys, because he couldn't move, he couldn't walk, he couldn't do it, that you guys sort of pushed him into the wave. Patient Son: That's really good. Dr. Bob: [crosstalk 00:23:31] into that final wave. Patient Son: You're right. Dr. Bob: And he rode that wave in. Patient Son: Something I think the three of us did really well together, was that I think when this first started, there was a lot of, "I, I, I, I," type of thing. "I feel this way. I might do it this way," and so forth. Then you, as time goes by and the situation gets worse, you tend to ... well at least for us I think it became more about dad. You know, what he wanted. It was crystal clear towards the end that all the decisions that we should make were in his best interest and making sure that he could go out the way in which he wanted. We're very proud of our team work together to support him. He was so happy at the end. We can live the rest of our lives knowing that we did the right thing for him. Dr. Bob: Yeah, and you created that piece for him in that place, and part of that was that you guys were coming together and working in that way and that you always ... I'm thinking about my own experience with my parents and how that affected me, but now that you know what it feels like to fully support someone, to remove your own needs from that, it affects everything. You can never un-know that. You always recognize that there's a part of you that is able to completely forget about your own needs and put others first. This is potentially the culmination of that, but it changes us, right? When we do that it changes us, and all of our other relationships going forward are influenced by that, which is pretty cool. So that's another gift. His gifts continue to be apparent. Patient Son: Yeah. You're right. Dr. Bob: So you guys, you alluded to this, and I definitely want to talk, you created, the whole couple of day leading to and including the day of his death were pretty incredible. You want to talk a little bit about that? Patient Son: The things towards the end that were very important to him, which they were forever just reinforced a little bit, were some time with his sons, some time with his family, some time with his grandchildren. So the day before he passed we set it up so that the grandkids could spend some time with him in his room as residents. We weren't sure how that would go so we just kept bouncing ideas off each other about what would be comfortable for everybody. We thought just opening the room up and letting the kids run around and play and be themselves was the right thing to do, because that's what they're good at and that's what dad wanted to see them do. We had a couple activities. One of which was we made a t-shirt for dad that we would were the following day. Patient Son: It was his idea. Patient Son: It was dad's idea, right. Why don't you talk about the shirt? Patient Son: [crosstalk 00:26:53] told you. Patient Son: We thought this was really special. He'd said ... We were actually trying to talk ... He wanted to know who should be in the room the day that he was actually going to go through with this. We talk about it, and he said, "Well ... " He's like, "Obviously I don't want the grandkids in the room." He's like, "What would be amazing is if, when you guys bring them over to play, bring a white t-shirt and some paint. I want them all to put their hand prints on the t-shirt, and I'll wear it.  That way the next day I'll feel like they're in the room with me." It was super sweet, and so we did that, as part of the day before. We had the kids come over, and they thought it was a lot of fun.  But maybe they didn't realize at the time they were actually making him a really amazing memento. And then Eric had another amazing idea... He bought a plain white sheet, and he bought a ton of fabric pens and paints. He had all the kids; it was Eric's idea, he had all the kids draw pictures, "Just draw whatever you want." Whether they knew it or not, the age range in the room, how old is Paige? She's 10? Patient Son: 12. Patient Son: 12. The kids ranged from two years old to 12 years old, and they were six of them. We put a big tarp out and the thing, and they all went to town on it. After they were done, they got in a little line and one by one they brought ... We put the sheet over dad and one by one they each pointed to their artwork and explained what they drew and why they drew it for him. What was really special is that we didn't really say, we didn't say, "Draw something intense," but they all I think were feeling the moment, and they did in their own ways. Each one of them got to express through pictures something for him. At the end of the day, he had a t-shirt to wear and this beautiful artwork on a sheet that he go to bring with him the next day. Dr. Bob: When I went over that next day, he was beaming. He was so proud of what he was wearing and just talking about that experience from the day before. That was brilliant. That was brilliant. Patient Son: In addition to seeing the kids and spending some time with them, he also had a couple places that he wanted to visit one last time. Two of which were his favorite beaches, where he wanted to get down there and smell the air one more time, see the waves one more time. We were able to make one of those trips, the other one he just wasn't feeling well physically to go down and make that trip. But we were able to get down to the beach. He wanted to see his grandkids and some sporting events, so he came and watched some flag football, some baseball, some gymnastics. That was important. He had some great meals towards the end; he would eat whatever we want, so we were bringing him things from all over San Diego, some of his favorites. And then also spending some time with his brother, his sister, his mom, close family, as well as some of his dearest friends. He had hundreds and hundreds of friends, so many he knew so well. But there were a handful in particular that he wanted to have some special conversations. So there was a lot that happened. He was able to cross off just about every single thing on that list within that short window of time that we had, or that he had, to be able to follow through this way. Patient Son: I think Eric told you, dad reverse engineered things. So he knew that on the day, it was not a day for goodbyes, it wanted it to be just a business day, where we just took care of things. The day before he wanted to see his grandkids. The days before that, he leaned on us to basically setup times for people to come through. It was very organized. This is exactly the way he wanted it. Patient Son: Went through all the pictures and he explained where places where and who people were. All that was just quality time. Patient Son: One cool think he did that I thought was really special too is he talked about time a lot in the end. When we picked a date it sort of made time more real, but he often said, beyond this, that time is the greatest gift. In the context of running towards the date that he picked, time became more real. But one cool thing he did was he recorded a bunch of things. So he had, I don't know, a checklist of 50 recordings that he wanted to do. He wanted to say something to each grandkids. Patient Son: His own voice recordings. Patient Son: He wanted to something to his friends. He had all these things that he wanted to get out. Obviously, he couldn't write anymore, and so he recorded his voice. But again, having that time, having that date is what enabled him to feel like he could accomplish something. Like, "Alright, I've got to see these people and do these things and make these recordings, and this is what I'm going to do." Patient Son: While he had a completely sound mind and was full of life mentally, just the body was breaking down. But we got to take advantage of that all the way to the end. Completely sound mind and great conversations, all the way to the end. That was a gift. Dr. Bob: Incredible. It's incredible. I didn't know about those recordings. I do know how structured his time was towards the end, because I had to come out and make another visit with him, and I had a short window. I was fit in between a whole bunch of other people there. I was like, "Come on, I'm the important one." Apparently not. Anyway. Talk a little bit about the last day. I think it's important for people to hear what that experience is like from the perspective of those who have helped to allow it and create it if you're comfortable with that. Patient Son: Sure, yeah. I mean, it was surreal, being the last day, for sure. He had hospice care. They were amazing, amazing people. They came by and gave him a shave and a bath. He smelled like a rose. Patient Son: He spoke very complimentary about the people who bathed him and supported him. Patient Son: Yeah. They were phenomenal, really amazing people. So, he got clean, he got dressed in his shirt, and he had the sheet. We had some time together in the morning to have a few more conversations, but he wanted to keep it pretty light that day. He already felt like he had said everything he needed to say, so that last day was just being together. We played some music, some of his favorite songs. We ordered the prescription. That prescription was delivered on that day. It's how that works. Between the order that you put in for that prescription, and they made the delivery to us. That kind of dictated our time window a bit. We didn't have the luxury of having that medication already in hand and waiting for that. So we had to make that happen all that day. But they were great as far as getting that to us pretty rapidly, just a couple hours and we had the medication in hand. Then we had planned to have everybody over. We had his mom and his brother and his sister and our mom and the three of us together all day. We had everybody planned to come over at a certain time once we had time to get the medication. Dr. Bob: You guys want to talk a little bit about that final hour or so? Patient Son: His last day went as good as we could have scripted it, I guess is the most important thing. I agree when you say he wanted to keep it light and so forth. For me personally, it almost ... I hope this doesn't sound cold, but it felt almost as if a formality, because we were able to spend quite a bit of time with him leading up to it, having a chance to say everything that we wanted to say. So that day became just being there for him, as proud, encouraged and strong as he was, he was probably feeling scared, although he'd never admit it. So it was just letting everything go and just being there for him and holding his hand and just telling him a couple more times how much we loved him, and then supporting the other ones in the room who had a tough time with it. Just kind of being there together, and luckily you did a great job for us, where we didn't feel any sort of stress. It just felt calm and the way it was supposed to go, I guess. I'll remember those things, that it was a beautiful day, it worked out perfectly, wouldn't have changed a thing. It all happened pretty quick. Dr. Bob: Were you nervous? Were you nervous about things potentially going badly? Is that a thought that you had? Patient Son: Me personally, no, because I didn't know enough about the medicines or things to understand the true percentage of them not working or something. The family, we were all so communicative together that I knew there would be no outburst or something emotional from anybody in the room. You're always a little nervous I guess in any situation, especially one like this, that it might not go well. But I was so confident and feeling so good for him at the time, that it erased any stress I think leading up to it. Patient Son: I would just say thank you to you too. I think having you; there was ... as I understand you don't have to have a- Dr. Bob: No, there's no requirement to have a medical person there. Patient Son: That would have made me nervous of think. Having you there with us was really ... Patient Son: Yes, agree. Patient Son: I don't know, it was calming and assuring. It was really great for you to tell everybody in the room too what to expect, here's what's going to happen, as we get rolling. It calmed a lot of the ... a lot of confidence that there was actually someone here who had done this before and this is going to be okay. I think without you I would have been more nervous. Patient Son: Yeah, me too. Me too. We knew from you that the medications were going to work. That was undoubtable. So then it was a matter of what it would be like for us in the room and how gentle it would be. That's what was an unknown. Dad was totally at peace. He had said even that three to five days prior, that was the most peaceful time of his life. He felt so confident and was looking forward to that day actually, this next adventure that he was going to go on free from his body with ALS. We all felt very positively about the day. We have had zero regrets and have felt good about it all along to this day. But he was at peace. With his mom there, she was 95 at the time; she just celebrated her 96th birthday. Everyone came over; it was about one o'clock in the afternoon.   We were going to give about an hour or so, a little over an hour, to just be with him, as with the larger family who were there earlier. So his mom came by, and his brother and sister and so on. One thing that was a little bit different for us is we have to prepare the medication. You explained this to us and were totally prepared for it. But with the medications, there's an anti-nausea, those are done an hour prior. Then you get into the; in our case, it was Seconal we used. So we had to open up the 100 capsules. We did that together, the three of us. We got, banged through it pretty quick, it seemed like 20, 30 minutes maybe to do that, 20 minutes maybe. But that was a process to go through. We had the family in the room, and we were going through and opening these and getting it ready. That was a little bit- Dr. Bob: Distracting. Patient Son: A little bit. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Patient Son: Yeah. We weren't just sitting with him; we were opening these capsules and so on. But it was part of the process. We understand that there's no other option right now. We knew that was a proven medication that was going to work and so that was the choice all along. It was just a process... Dr. Bob: Chris? Patient Son: Yeah. This is the only kind of negative part for me I think, was I didn't know. I didn't realize, that we were going get 100 of these capsules and have to break them open and empty them out. It was a little unexpected thing that I felt kind of threw off a little bit of the vibe because everything was so peaceful and we had confidence. All of a sudden, I don't want to speak for you guys, but I didn't feel 100% confident that I was doing it right or that, am I allowed to touch this stuff? Do I inhale this? It was a little weird for me in the moment. And then, I didn't really care until our grandma came and his brother and sister, and I felt like we weren't done with that part yet. So I felt like they were seeing the sausage get made or something, and I was like, that part freaked me out a little bit because I would have rather that just been done. It was the one thing I felt like wasn't exactly ... I mean, it sounds really hyper about our schedule. But it schedule and that part was a little frustrating for me. I think emotionally it was a little weird too because I felt like I was really participating with kind of this medieval act of poison or something. That part I didn't love so much, but I think had we been able to do it earlier, not too much earlier but just earlier enough, where I didn't feel stressed about it with other people in the room and ... Dr. Bob: I think ... So, part of the comfort level and knowing what's safe or reducing that stress, that's on me. I could have certainly given you a bit more information. But now that I'm remembering, you couldn't have done it earlier because of the timeframe. The medication was just delivered that day. Patient Son: It was just delivered. Dr. Bob: And he wasn't going to wait. Patient Son: I would have just told them to come later... Dr. Bob: So for anyone who's listening and you're in the process of planning, this is something to keep in mind. And there is another medication. Just to make sure that it's clear, there is another medication besides Seconal, and it's called DDMP2, which is a combination of powders. It's morphine and Valium and a couple of heart medications. But I typically don't recommend that to my patients, because it's not quite as proven, it's not always as smooth and quick. You might have had a very different experience had he taken that because sometimes it takes hours, rather than the minutes that it took your dad to gently stop breathing. So there are other options. I appreciate you sharing that because it's part of the experience. Patient Son: It was. Dr. Bob: This is a conversation. We're not trying to gloss over anything. We're not trying to make it sound simple or anything other than what it is. This was a very; it was a very meaningful difficult, beautiful, challenging time. It was all of that. I will never forget your grandmother doing the hula. Dr. Bob: She was incredibly special. Was that her idea? Patient Son: It was. Patient Son: Completely her idea. 95 years old at the time, and she spent a lot of time in Hawaii, spent 20 years or so out in Hawaii. So she learned hula out there, and she was a swimmer, very active and learned to dance. She had this idea that she was going to do this hula for him, to send him off on his next journey. So she stood at the foot of his bed. They had their eyes locked, and she did this amazing dance, stood up, she kind of leaned against the bed a little bit to steady herself. She did this amazing hula. Their eyes were locked, and dad looked so happy. He was just smiling, beaming. It was a beautiful moment. We all were blown away by that. But the connection they had, it was amazing. Dr. Bob: Yeah, it was beyond description. And she wasn't just dancing and granted this was a 95 year old dancing; it wasn't- Patient Son: Mostly upper body. Dr. Bob: Mostly upper body. Patient Son: Part of the hula, maybe people ... I'm not an expert in this but it's singing and dancing combine into a really beautiful choreographed moment. She choreographed not only the movement but also she wrote and sang her own song. The essence of the song was about passage, safe passage. It had a surf, nautical kind of thing happening. It was about letting him pass through. It was his mom, saying, "It's okay," and giving him that comfort like it's okay. It was through beautiful hand movements and song. It was really pretty. Dr. Bob: Yeah. And I believe it ended with, "And I will see you before long." Patient Son: Yeah. Yeah. Patient Son: That's right. Patient Son: It was her way to say goodbye. It was very beautiful. Yeah, it's crazy. Dr. Bob: Yeah, and then he reiterated how incredibly at peace he was. I truly, as difficult as this is, to be part of these experiences, truly it's incredibly gratifying to see the depth of the connection and to know that you're left with this beautiful memory that you allowed him to have this peaceful end and to be in control at the end of his life. I thank you. I thank you for being here and for sharing this. I know it's not easy to talk about, it's still so fresh. Is there anything else that you feel really strongly that you want to share that's coming up? Don't feel pressured, I don't want to end this with you having something that you think needs to be said. Patient Son: Well, the actual, once he took the medication it was very peaceful. We weren't sure what to expect. It took 19 minutes from start to finish. He was asleep within a minute or so, a minute or two at the most. Very, very peaceful. He started out with just a relaxed breathing, and it slowed and slowed and drifted off. It was very peaceful. We were all gathered around him and holding him. It couldn't have been better from that perspective. We've always felt good about it; I guess that's a true test. Two months later, here we are, and we're feeling like it was absolutely the right decision for him to make. We were happy to be a part of that for him, to support him, what he needed to do given the scenario. Thank you, Dr. Bob, for helping us with that. Dr. Bob: It was my honor. Patient Son: I would add to that, that since this has happened a lot of people have asked about it. Telling people about this is cathartic because it kind of helps to tell. But it also makes me realize how little people know about the Right To Die Act. It's something when you start telling them your story, they get very engaged, and they're very interested. They want to know more about it. I think it's just not a lot of people know about this but everybody I talk to and tell the story to is fascinated with the dignity and the choice and the control, and dying in a way that's very graceful. What you hear from other people is like, "That was not my experience." My grandma or my father, whoever died, they died very bad. It was not good for anybody. So to hear this side, it's almost like they're like, "Wow, I wish we could have had that. I wish we could have gone through that." It's interesting that when you bring it up ... no one would ever bring it up, but when you talk about it, it does open up a really interesting conversation. Dr. Bob: Well, that's why I so appreciate you being here and being willing to have this conversation because this is the kind of thing that people, they need to be able to share these discussions. Imagine what my party conversations are like. My wife hates going to parties with me because invariably people ask what I do, and we start talking about these conversations, about situations. Then they start telling about their experiences. For me, I live and breathe it, but I recognize that not everybody has the same comfort level with it. But people are fascinated when they understand that there is another better option. Patient Son: I'd just say that the whole thing is so sad in terms of the disease and knowing nothing about it until he was diagnosed. To see how he deteriorated physically so fast. The disease doesn't normally have pain associated with it, but he was a different case where he had so many orthopedic issues from surgeries, he was in incredible amounts of pain. It was so sad to see that. For him to be able to make this decision and to escape that pain while being so sharp mentally and so forth. I think it was one of the best things that happened in this journey. Like my brother said, we're so appreciative because we cared about him so much, and so many people in San Diego and the surrounding communities do. He was very well loved, and he deserved, like so many other people in this world, to go out the way that he did, on his own terms. Thank you so much. We'll always be appreciative for that. Dr. Bob: Alright guys. So Chris, Brian, Eric, thanks for being part of the conversation. You're awesome. Thank you all for tuning in to this episode of Life and Death Conversation.

Democrats pretend to come to terms with Clinton corruption, but it's all a hypocritical game as they ignore the trial of Bob Menendez. Dr. Sebastian Gorka joins us to discuss the troubles in the GOP. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Democrats pretend to come to terms with Clinton corruption, but it's all a hypocritical game as they ignore the trial of Bob Menendez. Dr. Sebastian Gorka joins us to discuss the troubles in the GOP.

What is a good excuse for a no call no show to work?Gordon Miller, works at G3i Ventures LLCUpdated Mar 23Bob: “Hey, Ralph, this is Bob. I am sorry I won't be in to work today.”Ralph: “Are you ok?”Bob: “Yeah, no, I'm fine. I just have a job interview across town at Ajax.”Ralph: “You mean our largest competitor?”Bob: “Yeah, that's the one. They are going to double my salary and make me a Director, so basically your job only over there.”Ralph: “Are you serious?”Bob: “No, I'm kidding I just need a day off. See you Monday.”Ralph: “Make it Tuesday. Enjoy.”

What is a good excuse for a no call no show to work? Gordon Miller, works at G3i Ventures LLC Updated Mar 23 Bob: “Hey, Ralph, this is Bob. I am sorry I won't be in to work today.” Ralph: “Are you ok?” Bob: “Yeah, no, I'm fine. I just have a job interview across town at Ajax.” Ralph: “You mean our largest competitor?” Bob: “Yeah, that's the one. They are going to double my salary and make me a Director, so basically your job only over there.” Ralph: “Are you serious?” Bob: “No, I'm kidding I just need a day off. See you Monday.” Ralph: “Make it Tuesday. Enjoy.”

感谢热心听友“小睡猫JoJo”帮忙听写本篇文稿!Ryan: A deceased stuffed giraffe has been drawing people’s attention at a Zoo in Wuxi, East China’s Jiangsu province, during the past “Golden Week” holiday. The zoo’s goal was to notify visitors of the dangers of feeding their animals. Is this clever or creepy? Guys, what do you think? What’s going on?Bob: I want to tell you the story of the giraffe. It was a lovely lovely living giraffe a few years ago, about five years ago, and his name was Collin. I don’t know if you know it’s real name was Collin, but I am goanna call it giraffe Collin.(Niu Honglin: you named the giraffe) Collin wasn’t very well(Ryan: were you attached) I really like Collin, I really did. Maybe because it was really handy to have a giraffe, because you can reach high things. (Ryan: oh, yeah, make sense)yeah, Well, anyway, one day Collin was just minding his own businessatthe zoo and then somebody, a visitor, I should say, came along and throw a plastic bag into the enclosure and Collin ate the plastic bag and poor Collin died, gone, giraffe, X…. Ryan: Is that the end of Collin’s story?Bob: No, Strangely enough, Because they decided that, I don’t know when they decided, they just decided, I know, we can still use Collin, we can just stuff him and put it at the zoo as a warning to visitors to say don’t do this, just don’t throw plastic bags, or don’t feed animals with wrong things and whatever, because otherwise you end up stuffed. You know which is what happened to Collin. Obviously, I am not saying people are gonna end up stuffed.Ryan: That was magical story. (Bob: Thank you.)I real feel for Collin Bob: I hope I made it live.Niu Honglin: And on top of that, they even put Collin into this parade, saying, and just put it all around, and travelling him, I don’t know if is him or her within the zoo laps and laps, saying, see, this is what you do, you want all our animals to end up like this, if you don’t, stop feeding them.Bob: But the problem is they keep on feeding them. This is not the end of it. There was a turkey called Frank, ok (Ryan: Oh, that’s a great name for turkey). Well, anyway, so he died because it was overfed by visitors. There were two ostriches, I don’t know their name, Linda, I don’t know, birdy, whatever, because of eating plastic bags given by visitors. There were three deer who died respectively because of (Niu Honglin: oh my god) I don’t know, help me out with theese names, for goodness sake. Anyway, so basically (Ryan: Jerry, Jim, Jonson), oh, fine, whatever, so anyway, there are all these animals, all over the place, being given things by visitors. What is the problem here? Ryan: You know, obviously, this is nothing new. Animals are dying right and left basically; because people are feeding them. And I can understand why, you know, in my mind; here is what I am thinking. And, I am thinking, Sometimes my dog would come to the table. And my dog would always eat before the family did, soo that it will beg less. That was the strategy,never happened, Ok, so the dog had eaten its dinner. Now we’rere at the table having our dinner as a family. But the dog would always come up, and you know, flash those puppy dog eyes. (Bob: This is where you got it from, you do the same) you know when those puppy dog eyes are flashed at you, you just, you’re like“oh god, I know, you just ate, this is bad, but it feels so right”.Niu Honglin: See, You’ve paint a pretty picture, a lovely home, a lovely dog, family dinner, but I have to say, this is very serious. A survey conducted in Guangdong province suggested that 97, 97 percent participants believe animals can eat what human eat, that is not the fact, animals cannot eat whatever human eat; and 76 percent participants confess feeding animals is for entertainment, so they are just doing it because they think it’s fun; and 18 percent participants think animals cannot get enough food. This is not all right.Ryan: I want to go with that, that animals don’t get enough food, because these people, I do feel, when it comes to animals, they don’t know the stuff. Obviously your statistics pointed to that. ( Niu Honglin: Yes.) So the zoos not doing a good job, at least giving them that information, because this animals come up…Bob: No, I don’t think you can blame the zoos for this, because, I don’t know, but when I was a school kid. (Ryan: tell that to Jerry, Jamey and Jonson. Ok?) They are not around anymore. But, you know, When I was going up at school, I was pretty certain that we had lessons, where they say, look, this is a lion, don’t put your hand in the lion’s mouth, don’t, you know, try to feed itfish & chips or something like this, just don’t do it. And then maybe we were taken to the zoo by family or school, and again, we were shown, just don’t do it. So I think people need to know what wild animals are and what to eat before they even get to the zoo.Ryan: All right, fair enough, we can agree to disagree on this one. But, I will say that, in the US not too long ago, there was a famous gorilla that was shot and killed because a child fell into its enclosure, and the child was, they shot the gorilla to save the child. Well, basically it is the negligence of the mother that the child ended up in there. And I think it was the zoo’s fault, but I think people would be really outraged, in the US, if they paraded Harambe which was with the name of the gorilla, around, and saying, “Hey, guys, you know, this is the zoo, look at Harambe, he paid the ultimate price basically because you didn’t know, not to stick your hand into the lion’s mouth, or not to have your kid wonder around this enclosure.Niu Honglin: Yeah, I agree. So for this story, I do believe that feeding animals are not correct, are not right, you should not do this, but I don’t like the idea of having this poorly tragically died giraffe, make it stuffed giraffe, and just parade it everywhere. (Bob: …We are supposed be talking about Collin, aren’t we) yeah, Collin is just the sad animal; this is a creepy creepy story. I wish Collin rest in peace. And also I do believe that the zoo is not there to blame, but, the zoo can actually do more, instead of putting Collin all around everywhere, maybe they can put signs each and every cages, saying we do not want you to feed them, your food is not proper for them, it could kill them. And also the massive media like what we are doing right now, is to our dear listeners stop feeding animals when you are in a zoo, it’s not good for them. Bob: And I think the message, which, if you put Collin right there at the gate. The message is, hey, (Ryan: living Collin or dead Collin?)dead Collin at the gate, I mean the problem with this, is that, basically saying, Look, it doesn’t really matter, because actually Collin is still with us, he is still help us, he is still working here at the zoo, he is fine, you know, he can still entertain us all. I just think it sort of sends out the wrong message when you take this poor little animal and stick him right at the gate.

He Yang:A Sina Shanghai online survey found that close to 50 percent of respondents support pet’s-friendly workplaces. They say allowing pets at work relieves pressure and even spurs creativity. But could your furry friends rub off on coworkers the wrong way? Well, let’s talk about the survey findings first.Yu Yang:Yeah, the survey finds that nearly a half of people believe that having pets at work can help employees release intense pressure to stimulate more inspiration. Nearly 30% of online users suggest that pets at work makes working overtime no longer alone and boring, it is also conducive to the relationship between colleagues. However, about 10% of people think the pets will be harmful for the hygienic working environment and they may destroy office facilities sometimes. And 13% of total survey participants simply disagree because they don’t like animals.Bob:How can people not like animals? I love animals.He Yang:There are people who not like you, Bob.Yu Yang:Some people may be allergic to the lovely furry friend.Bob: Furry animal, the faces, those beautiful little faces looking at you. How could you not like them when they are so cute? He Yang:I know that’s a good point. But what about a lizard or a spider?Bob:Or a snake? I’m gonna say this all comes down to I guess, you know, what kind of pet, because lot of pets just aren’t practical in an office scenario or maybe we are talking about a shop or a restaurant, where you can’t really keep a dog or a cat in the restaurant or something like that. But curiously, I’m against the idea. He Yang:You are?Bob:Totally against the idea of having animals. I love animals so much, but as I want to run home to my pet and it will relax me and get me over the stresses and the strings of the day. But it was interesting one of those statistics, which is 25% suggesting that a pet would make working overtime no longer lonely and boring. Well, how about we don’t have to do overtime? How about we have a good work-life balance? And then we don’t need to have these stress beaters like pets and animals in the office, we just go home and have social life, maybe you know play with our dogs and cats home.Yu Yang:Oh, this is ideal situation, Bob, but for news people or other media people, sometimes you don’t know what kind of news is happening and you need to work on it. So sometimes you need to work overtime.He Yang:So Yu yang, do you agree with the idea of having a pet at the workplace?Yu Yang:I understand people’s love toward animals, but keep your love at your own place, not in workplace, because there might be some people who are allergic to the dog hair or cat hair or other name allergens. So it’s not good for the health of other people. And also there is safety hazard and some people just have fear deep down in their hearts, I’m one of them, ok. When I was a little girl, I was chased by a huge black dog of our neighbour’s, so that has very negative impact on me towards my feelings to dogs when I see a dog, especially large one, I feared. So it might be distraction of people’s work.Bob:It could take longer to do your work, because you gonna have to look after the pet, you gonna have to, you know, play with it, feed it, maybe take it for a walk. So you could actually end up with more stress, because you have got less time to do your work.He Yang:Or you can go the other way round, that is when you have a furry little being in the office and it comes to, you know, your chair and then you can just rub it and then it goes to the next desk.Bob:Sorry, are you describing a pet or Ryan?Heyang:I think we have mentioned he’s a tall guy.So yeah, not the little furry one, which is so cute and some people are saying that having a pet in the office, people sort of forge more trust and more communication between each other.Bob:That I can understand.Yu Yang:Yeah, pet lovers usually share a lot in common, so it’s easier to build a trust among them.He Yang:And also a lot of start-ups, the cool, young companies allow this to attract younger employees and to be more accommodating to their employees. I think that is the gesture that are trying to show. And also there are some other studies saying that when you have a pet in the office, people walk around a lot more. It’s actually good for your health and there also some healthy chemicals that could be released just because you have a pet around, you can enjoy those chemicals at home and at work.Bob:We’re going to get a pet. We’re going to have a roundtable cat.He Yang:I want a dog.Bob:No, we can’t have a dog.Yu Yang:It’s a hard decision. It’s a hard decision.He Yang:That is a hard decision. And we want your suggestion. So send us a message on Wechat. We are ezfmroundtable, you can find us anytime, anywhere.

Legendary Coast to Coast radio host George Noory joins us, talking paranormal activity, ear centipedes, astral projection and alien abduction! Also: The most exquisite birthday cake of all time, a super special Ross Report, a special tribute song by QT, a more civilized microwave showdown, EVEN MORE erotic fan fiction, the first round of our Jonny Premo Plan, a fan forum and Nikki B Trending, and a tribute to Ms. Jackie Collins