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As a property management business owner, how do you find the best people to build an effective sales team? In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow Podcast, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with Bob Lachance, founder of REVA Global, to talk about how you can utilize virtual assistants for lead generation and growth. You'll Learn [01:22] Identifying a Need in the Real Estate Industry [08:53] How to Utilize VAs in Your Business [14:35] Creating a Hiring System in Your Business [19:30] Using VAs for Lead Generation Tweetables “When marketing consistently goes out, what we find is all those leads end up piling up.” “Over 70% of all sales never happen on the first touch.” “People want to do business with people they see, feel, touch, and like.” “Property management can definitely be death by a thousand cuts.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Bob: Virtual assistants are a big part of anyone's business. In my opinion today, I think you got to start looking at that because small businesses, a lot of times, especially when we start, we are on a tight budget. [00:00:12] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities daily variety unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. [00:01:10] Jason: Now let's get into the show. And today's guest is Bob. Do you say Lachance? [00:01:18] Jason: Lachance. Yep. Lachance. [00:01:20] Jason: I nailed it. All right. So Bob, great to have you on the show. And, Bob, you are helping people discover the top marketing channels that can maximize lead generation when working with VAs. And so we're going to chat a bit about that today before we get into that, tell everybody a little bit about you, how you got into entrepreneurism and what led you to what you're doing now. [00:01:43] Bob: Yeah. So right now I'll just start right now. I have a real estate investment company as well. And I have a virtual assistant staffing company, so I use my VAs in my own business. So I have a rental portfolio as well as a buy sell fix flip company here in Connecticut, doing a couple of different states, but I started back about 20, 21 years ago now back in 2004. [00:02:06] Bob: I played professional hockey prior to that for eight years and then got into real estate. And you know, from real estate, helped start an education program while I was, you know, working on properties. I did a lot of, you know, fixed flip wholesaling, all that kind of good stuff. This is, again, I'm dating myself, but this is back in 2004. [00:02:25] Bob: And through the process, when I helped start this education company there was a huge need in the industry, just like you, right? You see a need out there. And I'm a lot like you on that side of it, helping people and figuring out, you know, where they could. Create passive income or income in general. [00:02:42] Bob: So, during the coaching program, while I was in it, I realized there was a huge need. Majority of the students that I coached didn't have the time to actually put into their real estate business because they were either working part time or full time. They just needed to, you know, they needed help. And for years, upon years, I was looking for a solution for that. [00:03:01] Bob: Whether it was a product I didn't know back then, again, this is going back from 2007 to 2013. I didn't know there was any services out there, like what virtual assistants were. And then I got introduced back in 2013 what a virtual assistant was. You know what this could help my business So I hired my first one and then light bulb went on like, you know what we could turn this into a business I could take the back end of what it helps create which is the real estate education company And our students could use it to help them grow their business help scale help, you know, get your time and freedom back. So launched it in 2014 and then fast forward today you know 10 years later i've been in business for a while and I also have like I said my real estate investment company [00:03:45] Jason: Nice. [00:03:46] Jason: Nice. All right. And so let's get into the topic at hand. So, we're going to talk a little bit about leveraging virtual assistants. And so how did you kind of start doing this yourself? [00:03:58] Bob: Yeah well, when I first got into this, like I said I door knocked first, we didn't have the opportunity to have, you know, virtual assistants do some outbound stuff. [00:04:07] Bob: And I didn't understand, you know, I didn't understand what outsourcing was when I first started. It was just me. I had an individual who was my business partner back in the day, but first year I door knocked. I went from door to door, individuals that were behind on payments. So it wasn't the easiest job in the world, but it allowed you to understand how to build a business from ground up. [00:04:29] Bob: I think that was very important back then. So nowadays you can have virtual assistants do that, whether it's you know, cold calling, whether it's responding to direct mail, whether it's text messaging, whether it's social media, whether it's going out to, you know, Facebook marketplace and going right direct to seller, you also have rarely used now Craigslist, of course, but there's different ways to acquire and use your virtual assistant to do that. So that's just, again, a long and short. [00:04:54] Jason: So go ahead and tell people a little bit about your company and what you help people do. And I'm really curious because this is usually a difficult thing for business owners to outsource. [00:05:05] Jason: Usually they'll outsource some of the lowest level stuff, and it's usually not towards growth, lead generation, outreach, stuff like that. Those pieces can be really difficult to get dialed in or to do effectively. And so, tell us a little bit about REVA global? Okay. Yeah. [00:05:22] Bob: So, you know, like I said, we started back in 2014. [00:05:26] Bob: Like I said, I've been doing this for a long time and just to fast forward to what that looks like today and working with property managers, because obviously the individuals that are on your podcast here, I'll speak to them. And I know, you know, many people that also buy and hold also probably do fix and flip or also may wholesale, but it's kind of the same concept, but there's a lot of different tasks within it that virtual assistants can do. [00:05:50] Bob: So what I did is I broke up all the stuff that our VA is doing in my own business because you know, many individuals that are listening to this will relate to a company like ours because like I said, we have a real estate investment company, but we also use our VA's which I think is pretty cool. I think Nowadays, it's very important as a service provider like myself to use it to make sure it works so I think that's a pretty unique thing that we actually have. But what we do, we have virtual assistants that acquire, we call them like a department of acquisition. So if you're looking for leads, you could do cold calling, you do text blasting, you could do lead management. You know, lead management, a lot of us, I'm just like, you will have all these leads in your database, but if you don't get ahold of them the first time, your marketing is going to consistently go out. So when marketing consistently goes out, what we find is all those leads end up piling up. And if you try to reach out to them the first time, you know you have a very small percentage that are actually going to pick up the phone. Right? So you need somebody then that will continue to follow up on those leads. [00:06:57] Bob: And a national statistic is over 70% of all sales never happen on the first touch, right? So you have to continue. And I think that's probably 90 or 95 percent nowadays. So that's what we find in our office. And I know a lot of our clients say the same thing. So that number could change a little bit depending on what you read, but our experience in our office is over 90%. [00:07:21] Bob: So what I mean by that is the first touch, whether it's direct mail call or a cold call, whatever you do for direct mail or whatever you do for marketing, that first touch will not equate to a contract, so you're going to have somebody that's continuing to follow up with those individuals. Very important. [00:07:39] Bob: I wish I would have understood that stat when I first started real estate. But again, you know, you learn over time. Another stuff. If you look at other tasks as well, that works very well is marketing. Right social media management because you look at any type of business if you don't have marketing It's very difficult brand awareness, right people want to do business with people they see, feel, touch, and like so you need to make sure that you're out there You're out in the public's eye. [00:08:05] Bob: I think that's very important. I know you guys do a great job of that Jason on the marketing side of always being out there because I see in a lot of different places everywhere I'm looking online. So whoever's doing your stuff man, great job. So you're doing a fantastic job on that side of it. And then you go into leasing so if we look at property management you know driving leads is one thing, but you also have to, you know, close them. [00:08:27] Bob: So if it's you, me, or whoever's the one on the phone locking up those deals, it then goes to once you own them, you got leasing, you got move in, move out, you have collection, you have evictions, you have maintenance, you have accounts receivable, you have accounts payable, bookkeeping, accounting etc that fall underneath that property management umbrella, that virtual assistants are phenomenal to actually take on those tasks for you. [00:08:52] Jason: Got it. Yeah. Yeah. So what's the typical process for somebody that could use some help from a company like yours? How do you engage them? [00:09:01] Jason: What's onboarding like? How does that work? [00:09:03] Bob: I think for anybody who's looking to scale or looking to just get help in their business. You know, here in Connecticut, it's pretty interesting because if you're looking to hire someone in house, you start looking at what's going on with the world and what's going on with the economy in state of Connecticut, minimum wage is up to $15.69. [00:09:24] Bob: So when you start looking at that I know in my area, if I try to hire someone at minimum wage, they don't have a four year college degree. That's just not the highest level individual that you'd want working in your office. And so now you start looking at those things and what's happening around the country. [00:09:42] Bob: Virtual assistants are very are a big part of anyone's business. In my opinion today, I think you got to start looking at that because small businesses, a lot of times, especially when we start, we are on a tight budget. Right. And so for us to start to scale or start to grow or start to hire, we really need to look at what's going out, meaning out of our pocket. [00:10:04] Bob: So it's very important. So they first look at number one, what can we afford as small business owners? If we look at that number, now we start looking at what tasks in our business do not put money in our pocket. Right? And if you look in your world, meaning the property management world, it is a lot of the tasks like leasing, like taking calls from tenants, move in, move outs, eviction process when you're calling attorneys back and forth. What does that look like? There's just a lot of back and forth, right? Maintenance concerns. You get those all the time and those are the things that burn up your time. Your phone doesn't stop ringing. [00:10:44] Bob: So if your husband or wife wants to go on vacation with you and your phone doesn't stop ringing. That's going to put a lot of stress and a lot of challenges in your personal life to where, especially when you continue to grow. You have to put more systems and processes in your business. You know, if you had one house, that's one headache. [00:11:02] Bob: You had two, that's two headaches. You have a hundred, you have a hundred potential headaches that if you don't want to take those headaches on yourself, it's always good to have somebody else take those headaches before it gets to you. [00:11:15] Jason: Yeah. Property management can definitely be death by a thousand cuts. [00:11:18] Bob: Yep. [00:11:18] Jason: Yep. And if you get it really well dialed in though, yeah, it can be a really great residual income business model. [00:11:25] Bob: So Very good. Very good. Well, two sides of it, right? You buy, right? You have an equity play there, right? And if you don't have to deal with the headache, you get the positive income, you get tax advantages, things like that. [00:11:36] Bob: So, I mean, I'm a huge advocate of buying and holding and property management because over time, the more, like you said, the more properties you actually hold, the bigger your income grows. [00:11:48] Jason: Nice. Yeah. Cool. So, so I love this. There's lots of low level tasks. It does get really expensive trying to afford staff and team members and you don't want the cheapest or lowest level or worst people. [00:12:02] Jason: You know, in the United States representing your business. And so, sometimes you can get people at a fraction of the price point that have a lot more education that are a lot better. And so when you, any of the roles that are able to be done virtually, you open yourself up to a global marketplace rather than just your local city. [00:12:22] Jason: And so, yeah, so there's definitely advantages. So my entire team are virtual and I've got team members in various areas, Canada, Philippines. Egypt gosh, I don't know where else like all over the place and I've hired people over the past and just about everywhere. So yeah. And so, and so I'm not limited, so I'm able to just go find the best and I'm able to figure out, okay what can kind of fit into our budget and what can we afford in order to do that. [00:12:49] Bob: Right. And to your point, to get back to what that looks like, I mean, anyone in this world could go out and go source for their own candidates. You know, we set up a very unique system process. We have a whole sourcing and recruiting team. All my virtual assistants are in the Philippines. We set up a sourcing and recruiting team out of the Philippines, so they're Looking through, you know, thousands of resumes every single month sifting through and we're getting the best of those Resumes that come in as soon as they pass then they go through an interview process. [00:13:22] Bob: They pass the interview process They go to our training team and they train for about a month on various tasks property management tasks lead generation tasks, etc And then once they actually get to the end of that stage, they do another test and a lot of individuals do not pass our testing phase. And that's a positive thing because, you know, that's a way to kind of weed out the individuals that wouldn't make it, yeah, very good. [00:13:48] Bob: So, after that goes to our placements team and our placements team, it's kind of like match. com. They look at exactly what you're, you know, what the tasks are. And we do DISC profiling, things like that, and predictive index. And we look at the tasks that they're good at, and we match them exactly up with the client and the tasks that they're looking for. [00:14:05] Bob: So for instance, if someone's looking for a bookkeeper, you're not going to give them a profile that's a sales profile, right? You're going to, you're going to give them the correct profile. You put them together, they go through an interview process, and they pick the best candidate that fits within them so after that, it goes to our operations team. We have what we call a client service manager that helps manage the relationship between you and your va, so it's very streamlined. [00:14:27] Bob: You know, we tried every different business model there is out there and the model that we have right now seems to be the best model. [00:14:34] Jason: Nice. Yeah, I always recommend if you're a property manager like watching this or listening if you don't have a really solid hiring process you have not like tested embedded and experimented with, then the best initial way to do hiring is to leverage other companies' hiring processes. Go and work with a company and there's lots of different companies I've worked with over the years to get people on my team, and then eventually we've built a really good process internally, but In the beginning, I do think every business eventually needs their own hiring system, but if you don't have a great robust hiring system that you can get candidates consistently, that you know are a good culture fit, a good skill fit for the role, a good personality fit for the role then you need to go leverage somebody else's hiring system. [00:15:20] Jason: So I would highly recommend, especially if you're going to dabble with VAs, especially in the Philippines or any other area, that you want to not be dealing with all the riff raff and the challenges and everything else. You want to have some help with this. So I highly recommend you leverage somebody else's hiring system. And they're going to help you not waste as much time and money for sure. [00:15:46] Bob: And that's one of the things that's a great very great point because when you're first starting out or you're smaller. The best thing to do is learn off of others, right? [00:15:55] Bob: It's you'll walk through a company like mine. You say, "wow, what a great system." You know what? Document what we do and then implement it in your own business if you start growing. I think that is a fantastic idea, Jason, for that. Because, you know, you look at the biggest companies in the world. [00:16:09] Bob: They didn't just, you know, start being the biggest companies in the world or that, you know, it doesn't, you don't have to be the biggest, but they learned from somebody and they started implementing and they tested, you don't always get it right the first time. But after a while you will hone in and get that right. [00:16:24] Bob: So I 100 percent agree whether it's with our company or anybody else. Like I said, anyone could do anything themselves. It all depends on what you need help with at the beginning. [00:16:34] Jason: Yeah. And it also depends on how long do you want to suck until you figure it out. [00:16:40] Bob: That's true. [00:16:41] Jason: Like so if you want to collapse time, I highly recommend. Because I know when I started experimenting with hiring in the Philippines. Like there's just things you don't even think to ask like we had to ask like where are you accessing the internet? [00:16:53] Jason: Is this like at a cafe at your home? Is it reliable? What kind of computer do you have? You know, we needed to be able to you know there's just so many little quality controls we had to implement in order to figure out if they would be a good candidate, I mean, I've had team members in the Philippines with chickens going off constantly in the background and roosters crowing and like all sorts of stuff and their internet going up and down and so you know, there's there's a lot of quality controls that I think need to be put in place because it's not America. We have a little bit more stability in our infrastructure and in our internet connections and everything else. [00:17:29] Jason: And so, and then, you know, it helps to have somebody that manages the relationship like your company, because a lot of times, in that culture, they can be a little bit shy, I think at times, or a little bit nervous about displeasing their employer or giving honest feedback. And so they tend to ghost or disappear. [00:17:49] Jason: People have talked about people in the Philippines doing this. And so having somebody manage that relationship as a liaison can help improve the results that you're getting from team members. And but the cost savings are awesome. I mean, it's like a third to a half of what you would get and you can get college educated people, you get people that have like lots and lots of experience and skill, and they are able to be paid very well for their area. [00:18:14] Jason: And for you, it's seems like a steal. So. [00:18:17] Bob: And that's one of the things that we pride ourselves on. I mean, you nailed it. You touched upon all of that. You know, we make sure there's backup. We make sure there's the right internet connection, the right computer system, etc. So to your point that is definitely something for everyone listening to this to look at because the vetting process, that's what I found the most tiring. When I first hired my first VA, I got it wrong a lot, to be honest with you. And I didn't ask any of those questions. And then it's kind of funny to talk about the rooster. That happened to me. And that was before I actually owned the company. And then I started my company. That's one of the things I'm like, all right, we have to listen for, right? [00:18:52] Bob: What's your background, what's your surrounding, right to your point. And then you start learning over time. And then the more interviews you go on, the more stuff you learn, right? Like you said, you don't learn or you don't know all this stuff until you actually go through the process. And I think it's important for you to understand if you're going to do this, know that you're going to have a lot of pain up front when you hire at the beginning, right? And then you work with a company like mine and you'll realize you didn't go through that pain, but then you want to go hire someone. And then you decide to then throw your hat in the ring and do this yourself. [00:19:25] Bob: 100%. The questions to ask, just like Jason said up front, those are some of the things to look at. [00:19:30] Jason: You know, based on the stuff that you said, I there's a lot of. Property management targeted, you know, VA companies leveraging talent in the Philippines, but it seems like one of the things you brought up that seems to be unique to what you guys do that's different than most of the others, or maybe all of them is the focus on client acquisition, lead gen, and on the sales side of things. [00:19:53] Jason: Most are usually focused on trying to find VAs that are more like executive assistants or that are going to do tasks and be told what to do rather than people that you can trust to be the initial connection and face of your business. [00:20:08] Bob: You know what it's interesting, again, it's interesting you say that because I've been in this business for about 21 years, real estate investing. [00:20:14] Bob: And we realized over time that If you don't have, you talk about acquisition and lead generation, if you don't have leads for any of our businesses, we are going to struggle to make ends meet, right? So you have to figure out a way that's going to drive in leads to your business. I mean, I know for me, I'll just give you a perfect example. [00:20:32] Bob: When I door knocked, I went door to door to door every day from 10 a. m. to 3 p. m. But when I go home, I'd get that list and I would skip trace it back in the day You'd use 401. com white pages, and I would look for the best possible phone number for that individual then I would call. So when I got home, I would skip trace then I'll call until seven at night until I had to eat dinner with the family. But over time, I was beat up. [00:20:55] Bob: I don't recommend doing that anymore. You don't have to do that anymore because you can hand over those tasks over to a virtual assistant. And they're the ones that are going to be doing the outreach for you. And again, I do recommend you should try it because you'll realize you know, open your mind and understand that outsourcing that task will really give your energy back and bring your success up. [00:21:16] Bob: You may feel, well, I don't think anyone could do that task better than me. We all said, I know you said it before, Jason, I've said it. We all feel that way. And if you think about it, if they do 80 percent as good as you, that's a huge win. Now you get to do other tasks. That's going to drive business and revenue to your business. [00:21:36] Jason: Even if they do it half as well as you, but they're getting. You know, half the result and you're able to hire two or three of them and not do that work. Like it's easily time and money well spent. So it's consistency, right? [00:21:48] Bob: It's all the consistency. If you have something, a task that gets on a consistent manner, consistent basis every single day, you will get results by the end of the week. [00:21:58] Jason: Yeah. So what are kind of SLA you know, you know, what do you sort of think are the metrics or KPIs for as an appointment setter or somebody trying to help, you know, maybe reaching out directly to owners or maybe reaching out to schedule, I don't know, appointments with real estate agents to build referral relationships. [00:22:17] Jason: How many calls should they make a day? If this is their full time gig and how many appointments do you think they should be booking? [00:22:22] Bob: Well, it depends. So if you have, so for instance, if you have a, you know, triple line dialer, as an example, it depends if you're, you know, calling just on a, you know, on your phone and just dial like this, but there's a lot of very good technology out there. [00:22:36] Bob: You got mojo dialer, you have things like that actually are very good. You may have a company that you refer, Jason, that you could tell everyone but you're probably calling if you're full time, anywhere between 400 and 600 dials using that dialer, not manual dialing. You're probably going to hit about a hundred, 150 if you're manually dialing. [00:22:57] Bob: And that's a day. Yeah. But if you have a triple line dialer, you're going to hit on average 400 to 600 and this is just what I've seen through the years that I've been doing this. You may have a technology that burns through a thousand calls and then you're going to be listening to me saying, well, Bob, you're a hundred percent wrong. [00:23:13] Bob: I'm just telling you what I see on a daily basis and what comes out of, you know, mine and my client's offices. [00:23:19] Jason: I think yeah, even if they're doing it manually, if they can get a hundred to two hundred calls a day and get two appointments booked a day, like, so they're getting roughly about 10 a week. [00:23:27] Jason: Like that's a solid result for an appointment setter. [00:23:31] Bob: That's a win. That's a win. You're looking at, if you're looking for, so we call them ITS's in our office, interested to sell. I know other people call it different, but that's what we look for. Same exact thing. One to two per day per VA. [00:23:44] Jason: Nice. Yeah, very cool. And those listening, I'm sure all of you would love to have one or two appointments booked for you per day, and that would fill up a nice little chunk of your time and help you close some deals. So, yeah. [00:23:57] Bob: Especially on the buy and hold side Jason. It's a lot easier to look at your numbers. [00:24:03] Bob: And I know you have a formula that you guys look at to make sure the rent and you know, what the interest rates are today, et cetera, et cetera, whatever financing you have, but it is easier on the buy and hold side to fit within your buy box, right? Rather than having to go at, you know, 30 or 40 or 50 or 60 percent of the value. [00:24:20] Bob: When you fund it out and then try to resell it. So it's a different kind of mindset. So you're very fortunate if you're going to buy and hold your buy box is usually different than somebody who's either trying to wholesale or fix and flip. [00:24:32] Jason: Got it. So we've probably got some property management business owners listening to this. [00:24:37] Jason: And for some reason, maybe they're just crazy and they have not yet worked with DoorGrow yet, but they're like, Hey, I would like to grow, add some doors and maybe have somebody do some calls and reach out to Bob. How could they get in touch with you and how can they initiate a conversation? [00:24:54] Bob: Well, you can check us out on our all of our social, of course, but REVA Global. R-E-V-A Global. com. If you have any specific questions, obviously for you, you could just reach me direct at bob@revaglobal.com. [00:25:07] Jason: Awesome. Hey Bob, thanks for coming on the show. Any parting words for entrepreneurs that are struggling, they've never hired an assistant yet they, even if they've built out part of their team or an entire team already, which is ludicrous to me, but what would you say to them? [00:25:22] Bob: Well, I would say number one, get started, of course, but number two, I would say you got to set up your processes and systems and get them done consistently because if you just get success here. And then you stop doing it. Real estate's a long game. You know, like I said, I started this 21 years ago and I wish I knew what I knew now back then. [00:25:43] Bob: I would start buying properties back then because right now I'd be retired with thousands of doors and rental income of a thousand doors. But I started a little bit later. [00:25:54] Jason: Hey, Bob, we appreciate you coming and hanging out with me on the DoorGrow show today. And I'm excited to see if you helped maybe some of our clients listening or some of the people let me know what results they get and maybe we'll have you come back on. [00:26:07] Bob: Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. [00:26:08] Jason: All right. So if you are a property management entrepreneur, you're struggling to add doors, you're struggling to figure out how to grow your business. We want to help you. We want to support you. Reach out to us at DoorGrow. com. You can also join our free community at DoorGrow club. com. Go there. Answer the questions. We reject 60 to 70 percent of applicants. It's just for property management business owners And if you get inside, we'll give you some free stuff that'll help you out and help out your business. So that's it for today until next time to our mutual growth I'm, Jason Hull, and I hope you crush it. [00:26:40] Jason: Bye, everybody. [00:26:40] Jason: You just listened to the DoorGrowShow We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com Listen everyone is doing the same stuff SEO PPC pay-per-lead content social direct mail and they still struggle to grow at DoorGrow We solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business Find out more at doorgrow.com Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe until next time take what you learn and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.
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Get ready to dive deep into the future of Vocational Rehabilitation (VR) with Dr. Joe Ashley and Dr. Bob Schmidt in our latest episode! Joe, the dynamic Project Director of the VR-ROI initiative at George Washington University, teams up with Bob, one of the leading economists and the Project Research Coordinator, to bring you insider knowledge on revamping return on investment models for VR programs. They're on a mission to streamline and elevate how VR agencies operate, helping them become more efficient, effective, and impactful. Their discussion is packed with actionable insights that will empower your agency to sharpen its data collection strategies, ensuring the true value of your services shines through. Plus, learn how to better communicate the VR success story to policymakers and stakeholders! Tune in to discover how you can maximize your VR impact with the latest advancements from the VR-ROI project. Don't miss out! Listen Here Full Transcript: {Music} Joe: We're trying to make sure we have information that the director can use with policymakers, and something for clients and counselors to use to say, yes, this is the kind of services we're looking for. Bob: The model we develop is based on readily available administrative data. Joe: It's built on the individual customers and how well they do and what their outcomes are. Bob: The human capital development, that's what it's all about a lot. Some things just aren't measurable. So when you mentioned financial return on investment, that's what we're talking about. Joe: If you can't capture it, you're not able to tell the story. Carol: Yep, if it isn't documented, it didn't happen. Bob: That's right. Joe: Yeah. Intro Voice: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow. Carol: Well, welcome to the manager minute. Joining me in the studio today are Dr. Joe Ashley, the project director for the VR Return on Investment project based at the George Washington University, and Dr. Bob Schmidt, one of the five economists working on the project and the project research coordinator. So, Joe, how are things going for you today? Joe: Today they are doing really well. Thanks for asking, Carol. Carol: Nice to hear it, Joe. and Bob, how are you doing? Bob: I'm doing well as well, at least, as well as Joe is doing. Carol: That's awesome. Alright, glad to have it guys. Okay, so for our listeners, Joe is my colleague and we got him out of retirement to serve as the project director for this important initiative. And this project is funded by the National Institute on Disability, Independent Living and Rehabilitation Research, also known as NIDILRR. Now, this is the federal government's primary disability research organization and is part of the Administration for Community Living. Now, NIDILRR's mission is to generate new knowledge and to promote its effective use to improve the abilities of individuals with disabilities to perform activities of their choice in the community and to expand society's capacity to provide full opportunities and accommodations for its citizens with disabilities. NIDILRR achieves this mission by funding research, demonstration, training, technical assistance, and related activities to maximize the full inclusion and integration into society, employment, independent living, family support, and economic and social self-sufficiency of individuals with disabilities of all ages. They also promote the transfer of, and use and adoption of rehab technology for individuals with disabilities in a timely manner, and also ensure the widespread distribution and usable formats of practical, scientific and technological information. And they do address a wide range of disabilities and impairments across populations of all ages. Now, Joe, I know you have a little disclaimer you wanted to make. Joe: Yeah, I just want to be sure that people understand that what Bob and I are going to talk about today is our opinion of what return on investment should be, and is not necessarily reflect what NIDILRR is looking at. Carol: Excellent. Well thanks Joe. Let's dig in. So, Joe, why don't you kick us off and tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey in vocational rehabilitation? Joe: Carol, I've been in rehabilitation for quite a while. I worked with the Virginia Department for Aging and Rehabilitative Services, the general agency in Virginia, for over 25-27 years, most of the time as an assistant commissioner in a variety of roles. I have a master's in rehabilitation counseling from the University of South Carolina. That sort of got me focused on vocational rehabilitation. And then later I had a Doctorate in rehabilitation from SIU at Carbondale that took me on a path of looking at program evaluation and program development. When I got to Virginia, I was working out of the Woodrow Wilson Rehab Center, now called Wilson Rehabilitation Center, and was working in a program that was collaborative across, it was one of the early transition grants, 1985,and it looked at vocational evaluation as a part of a process to help kids learn what they needed to do. And we were working with students from special education and vocational education in the schools, and vocational rehabilitation, and getting these systems to collaborate to help kids find out what they want to do and to be successful in employment and in life. And I got to where I really enjoyed that kind of collaborative work, and I ended up as an assistant commissioner in the agency, looking at developing innovative new programs as a part of my responsibilities and looking at a lot of the ancillary support services like rehabilitation, engineering and other kinds of things. Through a series of circumstances, I ended up as the director of the field services for four years, where I began to get a good sense of what disabilities needed to be in terms of supports to be successful in employment and being able to live successfully in their communities. In addition to that, what counselors and other staff needed to be able to provide those services to them. And then I got into the job that was my favorite, which was something called grants and special programs, where I did a lot of the Social Security stuff, cost reimbursement, work, incentives specialist advocates. We created a new system there to do fee for service for the work incentive services. We did a lot of work with the workforce agencies. I did all the agreements with that, and then I got to do grants and any of the grants that helped people with disabilities be able to live and work and thrive in their communities were things that we were willing to support. And I got to work with a lot of different funding systems and across a lot of different systems, you know, Special Ed workforce systems, behavioral health, a lot of different groups to help people with disabilities have opportunities. So that's what I really enjoyed. And that's where I came across the late doctor David Dean and then Bob Schmidt as a part of that package with Dean. And it was about telling the VR story. And I got real passionate about how do you tell this story in a way that is going to get people like GAO to pay attention, as well as help directors with policymakers and individuals and counselors help make decisions about what's a good choice for them. So that's really how I got to where we are today with this new grant. Carol: Very cool Joe. I know we all look to your program in Virginia for kind of the cutting edge stuff that was happening, because you all seem to always have just something cooking. Joe: Yes. Carol: It didn't matter what. And especially like the disability work incentive stuff that you were talking about and all of that. Oh gosh. I just think you've done a lot of stellar things there. Joe: Well thank you. It was fun. Carol: It's awesome. So, Bob, tell us a little bit about yourself. Bob: Sure. Happy to. Joe mentioned Doctor David Dean. He was a colleague of mine in the Department of Economics at the University of Richmond. He worked on what he called economics of disability, and he started working on that in graduate school at Rutgers with a faculty member there. And he worked on that. So that was in the 1980s. He came to the University of Richmond, and he got me interested in it because he was an outgoing, gregarious, very bright guy and made friends easily. So he got me involved in this probably early 1990s, and we started working with DARS and several other things at the time with Joe, but also Kirsten Roe. I don't know how many people remember her, but she was instrumental in all the work we did. So this is actually our third grant with NIDILRR. The first one was a demonstration grant. So it's a kind of a proof of concept. Second was implementing it. Now this one is refining it and taking it to the next step. That's what we're trying to do with that. So David got me excited about it. Joe keeps me excited and he keeps me honest. Carol: That is awesome. Well, I know just being around the director ranks for years and folks talking about return on initiative, it's been a, you know, a hot topic. People chat about it, but I don't know that everybody always really understands it. And I think sometimes people think maybe it's something that it isn't and they aren't very good at explaining it, but everybody wants to do it. So you guys are going to unpack all this for us. Joe, why don't you tell us a little bit about the project and what you're trying to accomplish? Joe: Well, with this current iteration. It's what NIDILRR calls a field initiated project on their development side, and it's got a ridiculously long title. So I'm just going to say it is about updating and simplifying our return on investment model. That's its main purpose, and it's about helping our agencies understand what they can do to be more efficient and more effective, and take a look at the mix of services that they provide, to be sure that they are getting the most out of the resources they have to help people with disabilities obtain, you know, that probability of employment and upon employment, their earnings. And we're trying to make sure we have information that the director can use with policy makers, that agencies can take a look inside their own services to say, maybe I need more of a particular type of service because I'm getting good outcomes, or maybe I need to tweak a service because it's not getting what I want it to do, and then something for clients and counselors to use to say, yes, this is the kind of services we're looking for. We got four goals, and the first one is just really to update the model. Our previous model was prior to WIOA implementation, so what we hope to be able to do is take a look at the data systems and take a look at the performance indicators that WIOA requires. And we can do a correlation, perhaps with the long term employment to see how well they're correlated. Also take a look at Covid impact. The second goal is about intensity. Our other model is you either got a service or you didn't. And if you got the service then how did it affect employment and earnings? Well, the next logical step according to The Economist and we have five on the project as you mentioned earlier, was what is the intensity of the service. Does that make a difference. So that intensity measure could be hours of work. It could be what it costs to do something. It could be units of service. And taking a look at if that is related to the propensity for employment. The other piece that goes with that is how about internals provided services, what we had before in the system, nobody had good measures of the services their own staff provided. So we're hoping with what we're seeing now and we're working with the two agencies in North Carolina, and they've been extremely helpful and collaborative with us on this process is take a look at the internally provided services and see what impact they have on the employment and earnings side of things. And then we've been told many times our third goal is simplify the model. Right now it takes economists to run it. Well that's not always a good idea for some people. So what we're trying to do is see what econometric models could we put in place to simplify this process so that it's more available to rehab agencies. But you want to make sure it's still rigorous enough to give you a reliable estimate of return on investment. So one of the things we're having with that is many of the folks on the who are listening to the podcast may be aware that we did a data analysis and management capacity survey that CSVRA sent out. Our advisory committee supported, and with that, we got 54 agencies to provide us information on what their data capacity is and what this capacity of their staff is. And then what kind of training they might be interested in. We're still looking at the data from that and we'll have some information on that later. But what we find in this may make a big difference on how simplified the model can be, or whether we need to take a different track to help people be able to implement a new model. And then finally, it's about knowledge translation. And part of that is coming to us like we did a consumer and stakeholder forum with the North Carolina State Rehab councils and some other stakeholders to get input on what they'd like to see, what kinds of information and would this information be helpful to them. And then we're going to have another consumer and stakeholder forum probably next spring to say, here's the model as we have it so far. Does this make sense to you and would this be valuable to you? So those are the big overriding goals that we have for the project. Carol: I really like that you guys are digging into the capacity that agencies have, you know, with that data analysis, because I'm just thinking definitely, as I've been out across the country that you've got to have and the have nots. I mean, there for sure. are folks, I think of our friends in Texas and they have a lovely team there. Just they have like an amazing... Joe: Oh yeah, they do. Carol: ...resource team. And then you've got other folks trying to scrape together kind of a half of a position that can maybe do a little smidge of a little something around the 911. Joe: they may have a resource like a data system, but they don't have anybody that can run it, or they may have staff with the capacity to do the data system, but they don't have the system. I mean, it's a lot of different variables there. Bob: I'd like to jump in here just on one thing, which was on the simplified VR model. So the model we've developed, thank God it was by economists, is we're trying to address the question here. The goal of the program is to get people into competitive employment or keep them in competitive employment. If they already came into the program with it, maybe build on that. So there are a lot of things that are correlated with how well you do in the labor market, gender, race, Age, education level. All things are correlated, right? And maybe service provision in the VR program. But we'd like to take it from well, it's correlated, but we don't know exactly how or why. In the same way you can say, well, provision of this specific type of service leads to improvement in the labor market, leads to a greater likelihood of obtaining competitive employment. Now that's a different issue. Now the way you normally do that, the gold standard is a randomized clinical trial, right? Where you take people and you randomly select them and it's double blind. So neither the researcher nor the individual involved in the experiment know who's receiving the treatment, or who isn't. Well, that's clearly impossible in VR. First of all, it's illegal to deny service to someone who is eligible and for whom you have the money. But secondly, it's impossible. So what you have to do is you have to impose statistical controls somehow. You have to do it through some sort of statistical model. And we've developed one which is state of the science. What state of the science inherently means that not everybody can implement it. So even at some universities, they aren't able to implement this particular model. And so we wanted to ask the question, could we come up with a simplified version of this model, a simpler model that can be used possibly in a VR agency or possibly at a local community college or university, something like that. And they could get similar results. So we wanted to see how could we do it? Is that a possible goal? What do you lose when you do it? Does it do a good enough job, or what kind of qualifiers do you have on it? Joe: Where are the tradeoffs? Bob: Yeah, what are the tradeoffs? That's a simpler model we're trying to do. Carol: Should we talk about the model you developed now? Do you want to talk about it? Bob: That'd be fine. Sure. Carol: Let's do it. Bob: Okay. One of the things is that the model we developed is based on readily available administrative data. What that means is you don't have to run a survey. You don't have to go out and do a very expensive sort of research project to find out what's going on. Instead, we use data from agency's own data system, which they collect to report to the Rehabilitation Services Administration, (RSA). they have really, really very good data. The RSA forces them to collect very good data. In fact, for some of our economists, their eyes just lit up when David told them the kind of data that he was able to access it. Whoa. That's great. So there are two levels. One is you get data from the agency itself, and then they will provide data to us that they provide through the quarterly RSA and nine over 11 report to the RSA. And more than that. So we get much greater detail than that if we know how to use it. If we can identify and know how to learn how to use it. And then secondly, all the agencies have given us access, been able to give us access to unemployment insurance sort of data. So quarterly data on that and what the RSA collects upon closure. They're mandated to follow employment and earnings for four quarters after closure, but we don't think that's long enough, especially since WIOA was passed Workforce Innovation Opportunities Act and changed the mandate to work on transition age, transitioning students with disabilities or providing those sorts of services. Well, if you're going to start working with young people who are just entering the workforce, or you're providing college level education or skilled training services to any age. You can't just follow them for four quarters. I mean, if you're just entering the workforce, you're not going to enter it at the highest levels of the workforce, right? So if you want to know what the real impact is, you have to follow them longer. So with the unemployment insurance agencies, we've been able to get quarterly employment and earnings data from 2 to 3 years before they even applied to the program. That's kind of a baseline. But what are the services do to you? How do things change? Well, that's your baseline three years before application. Then we try to follow them for at least five years after application at least. Now the current one starts in 2018. So the earliest applicants we have from 2018, and then we collect all applicants between 2018 and 2021. So already it's a stretch to get five years of data. But we had to start that recent because we all wasn't fully implemented effectively until 2017, 1819. In fact, the fellow North County says preferably 19 or 2021. But then you don't have, you know, this thing ends in 2025 and you don't have enough data, enough tracking. So that's the first thing, is readily administrative tracking earnings over a long period of time, as long as possible. Another thing is generally the way these things are done or have been looked at is you look at the VR program as a whole. You don't look at by discipline, you look at the agency. These are people who apply for services, and these are people who got to the point where they got a plan or plan for employment services. And then how do they do? We look a little differently. We look at by disability type. First of all, we look at for broad based disabilities folks with a cognitive impairment. And that could be an intellectual disability or a learning disability. Folks with a mental illness. And then also we try to find out how severe that mental illness is. Folks who have a physical impairment and folks who are blind or visually impaired or otherwise visually impaired. So we look at and we estimate those all separately because we think services are assigned differently by disability type on average. And also the disability type affects how you will do in the marketplace, for example. What we found out was for folks with physical impairment, unlike folks who have a cognitive impairment, cognitive impairment might be with you since birth, perhaps. And so therefore you kind of have a steady level of earnings at a certain level. But if you have a physical impairment that often comes on very quickly, very acutely, very quickly. So all of a sudden you see their preapplication Application for earnings pretty good. And then boom there's a big plummet, right? And so then you have to do something different with the track that the pre-application earnings. So that's the second thing. The third thing is that this idea that these folks, we look at the folks who received,, who had a plan and therefore received services, we compare those people who didn't have a plan and didn't receive services. So he received service, he didn't. Or, in economics or the social sciences, you call it a treatment group and a comparison or a control group. Well, we thought you could do a little bit better than that. What we look at is we look at anywhere from 7 to 9 to 10 to 11 different types of services things like diagnosis, medical treatments, college education, training, all those sorts of things. We say, first of all, how is the decision made that you're going to receive this type of service? And then secondly, what impact does it have? So what factors influence the decision to We see what type of services and what impact does that service have in the labor market on gaining and keeping competitive employment. So we look at that. So we look at different types of service. So you can see already it's a much richer type of analysis therefore much more complicated types of analysis. And then the last part is that we built sort of a state of the science model. And that's what makes it complicated for many people to try to implement. And by that we mean that this correlation versus causation. So instead of doing a randomized clinical trial you have to take the data as you receive it. So therefore you kind of build control by saying how do you control for different things that might affect this that you don't observe. Now one of these might be motivation, right? So if you have someone who's particularly highly motivated that will might lead them to both apply to a VR program and a plan, follow through and move on, successfully complete the program, and might also quite separately, whether or not they receive services. It helps them in the labor market, right? Because they're motivated to succeed. So how do you distinguish those things? That's tough. You do randomized clinical trial. You can't because both types people end up in both parts motivated and unmotivated. So we have to impose this controls. And that gets a little complicated. So that's basically the model is then once you're done. So then we get impacts by type of service. We also collect cost of providing those services. Cost of the program. We have those impacts. We let them spit out and say what would happen if they kept getting this benefit level for the next five to 10 to 15 years? And then you have to do some what's called discounting in technical and finance and econ. So you do that and then you say, okay, this is the total gain from that service or actually from all the services combined. And this was the cost. And the difference to that is kind of cost versus benefits, right? Hopefully the benefits exceed the costs, right? And that's how much they've gained because of the service per versus both the. That's essentially what you do. And the other thing about that is we can calculate that for each individual in the sample. So we have individual level returns on investment individual level benefits or effectiveness. And you can then aggregate that up and say okay agency wide. This is what it looks like. The agency's return on investment for a particular disability. That's what their return on investment look for males their females. Any group you want to do you can just do it because we have the individual impacts of it. So that's the model. And we want to see whether a simplified model can get us similar sort of information. Joe: One of the things, Carol, that I find compelling about the model in particular is something Bob just pointed out, and that is it's built on the individual customers and how well they do in this process and what their outcomes are, and it builds up. So it starts at that individual client level. The other thing, when the economists were developing the model and they were looking at the data of people who went through the system, they observed that there's a lot of variability in the types of services that are provided. So they built the model around that variability of services. So that individual service model, that is VR is what makes the variability work for this model. So it's very much tied to the core tenets of the VR program, that individual services model. And that's where the variability comes from. And that's why it can give us some causation. So I think it's really important to note that it is consistent with how we do services and how we provide what we do. The other thing I will say about The Economist is they have been dedicated to understanding how VR works. They often in the early days when we were going out, they would sit down with the agencies and say, does this make sense to you? And then they would look at the model to see what would make it make more sense in terms of telling how VR works or the outcomes of VR. So they've spent a lot of time trying to understand the system and get knowledgeable about how VR works and what the opportunities are, what the process is, so that what they're modeling is consistent with how we do business. So I think that's a key component. Carol: I think that's really cool that you said that, Joe, about taking it back to the individualized nature of the program because VR, you know, you think about it in an aggregate, we get this big $4 billion in a lump. And, boy, each person's experience within that is so individualized. It is, you know, whether you're getting this or that, you know, are you getting educational sorts of services and access to training and post-secondary and all kinds of different things? Or are you a person on a different trajectory, and maybe you needed some medical rehabilitation type of stuff going on? You needed something completely different. Like, people have so many ways to mix and match and use the things they specifically need to get where they need to go. You probably can't do it unless you get down to that level. So that is very interesting. Now, Joe, I know we've talked about this in our team a little bit even. And I know you said you wrestled with your group, but this whole notion of return on investment or taxpayer return on investment has been a really interesting topic and is fraught with some issues itself. And I remember coming into Minnesota and the general agency director like taxpayer return on investment, and I was brand new in the program. I'm like, I don't even know what you're talking about right now, but a lot of times you tend to hear it discussed that way. But I know, Joe, you've said there's a lot of issues around this. So what are some of those issues? Joe: It's an interesting little issue. The very first meeting we had, it was at Carver, and we had a number of people from different agencies and state rehab councils come into a meeting, and we were laying out the first model. And one of the directors at that point said, well, are you doing a taxpayer return on investment? And by that he meant returning Taxes, increase in taxes, receipts going back to the Treasury. And that was his definition of it. That was the first one. And then when we were in North Carolina at the consumer forum that we did the stakeholder and consumer forum, we got the question from some advocates and said it doesn't seem to go away. We always get that question, but the issue is what is the appropriate way to determine the return on investment for a particular type of program. And it was interesting. We got this question so often, even from some of our workforce friends that are the economists said about writing a paper to describe why taxpayer return on investment is not appropriate for a VR type of program. And they submitted it to, I think it was three, maybe four different econ journals, and some of them didn't even send it out for review. They said, this is already settled. It's not appropriate for this kind of program. So the issue is another workforce programs or human capital development. And the purpose of a human capital development type of program is to in our case, find people employment and look at that probability of employment. And then conditional on that earnings, if you've got people in your system and they're entry level, a lot of them are not going to be at the level where they pay any kind of taxes at all for several years. So you really don't have a lot to show when you do taxpayer return on investment in terms of that. Also, one of the things that we noticed when one of the studies that was done is that in some cases, and this is with a particular type of one of the particular disabilities, is the only one they looked at this with when we had some Social Security earnings available data available to us for a short while. Not only do we get people off of Social Security benefits, but we also find people that go on to Social Security benefits from being involved with VR, and that often makes them more stable. So then they can then participate in a VR type of program and be successful. But it's a long, long term process to do that. So in the short term, you're not going to show anything but about as many come on as go off. So you're really not showing that. But if you're doing what the authorizing legislation says you're supposed to do, which is get people employed, let's just take it down to a simple level and then the question becomes, are you efficient and effective in that process? And that's what this particular return on investment model is about. And that is what the economists would say is the appropriate way to look at this. Now they would call this a social welfare type of program is the category they put it in. And then human capital development. But there's other kinds of benefits that accrue to the individual. Because this model, this type of approach looks at it benefits to the individual and to the society in general, which is the individual being employed. And in this case, there are other benefits that we can't observe. Self-confidence would be a good example. Quality of life would be a good example. So in our case, what we're able to observe is how they're interacting in the workplace. And that's really the piece that we can measure. And that's where we're going with this. And the others might be important, but very few places have really figured out how to measure that. Carol: Well, Joe, I actually I was telling Bob before we hopped on, I said, you know, I threw something in ChatGPT because I was like, all right, VR return on investment. Explain it to me. And ChatGPT it spit out. It talked about financial return on investment, you know, with employment earnings, cost savings. But it was talking about social return on investment, improve quality of life, community contributions. You know people experiencing that enhanced self-esteem, independence, all those things. And then personal return on investment with skill development, career advancement, those kind of things. It was just kind of fun to run it through and go, hey, yeah, because I know you guys have wrestled with like, what are you going to call the thing? Did you come up with like the name, The Thing?? Joe: Yes, it's interesting. I think what we came down with is that we think the vocational rehabilitation return on investment is the name we're going to stick with. And then say, you know, what we have is a human capital development project, and that's how we're measuring it or return on investment. But what we're going to have to do this is so ingrained in the culture of VR that you've got to return taxpayer dollars. Well, that's really not what VR says it's supposed to do. And so how do you get people to understand that that's not the appropriate way to look at the VR program. So we're going to have to do some education. I think about what return on investment is. And I may use your ChatGPT story... Carol: Yeah. Joe: To ...tell it. Carol: Bob, I see you have something you want to jump in with. Bob: Yes, and I think well, I have several things. One is I think the reason it's so ingrained, I think I might be wrong. Joe can correct me is because agency directors have to testify before the state legislature to get the money they want from the state legislature, right? And say the legislature, at least for a while. I don't know if they're still doing it. They're saying, yeah, but what's the return to the taxpayer on this? Why are we funding this if it's a money losing proposition Well, that's the thought process. But the problem with that is the state legislatures are kind of going against the odds. The federal authorizing legislation, you know, VR dates back to again, Joe can correct me. After World War One, when veterans came back from war and they had some severe physical injuries, and the federal government said, well, let's try to get them services to help them vocationally help them get back to work, get a job, and keep it so that they're effective in the workplace. Well, that thing was incredibly successful. So over time they said, well, this works so well. Can we expand it to other disabilities? Maybe states want to get involved in this as well. So what's happened over time is every one of the 50 states has this kind of co-funded arrangement with the federal government. And the Rehabilitation Services Administration oversees it, where they jointly sponsor these things, and it now covers many disabilities. Some states have more than one agency, one for the blind and visually impaired and one for the general. Other disabilities. So it goes back that far. And the authorizing legislation says is specifically provide services to help the individual gain and maintain competitive employment. And we're back down to the individual with that. It doesn't say to pay for itself to the fed, to repay the state or federal government for those services. So that's one thing. It's not what the metric to do it by. A second thing is, I mean, I never did like the social welfare. I'm an economist who would never call this a social welfare program. First of all, welfare has a negative connotation, even if its denotation is not negative. It's social improvement or anything. But it's really less a social more. As I said, the human capital development, that's what it's all about. And he also mentioned the issue that a lot of some things just aren't measurable. So when you mentioned financial return on investment, that's what we're talking about. Is the agency doing its job of getting people back to competitive employment and leading a better life, and maybe freeing up some of their family work to do other things. There might also be a multiplier effect in the sense that they earn more money, they spend the money. Other people, as a result, earn more money. And economists call that a multiplier effect. So that dollar has more on it. But it wouldn't get measured in this taxpayer return on investment at all. Carol: Okay, cool. So I know you guys have made some interesting observations in reviewing the data and looking at some of the longitudinal data. What kind of things are you guys seeing? Joe: My observation is that it concerns me that some people we've learned recently that some of the states aren't capturing data after the fourth quarter after exit in terms of UI data. I know one state that is capturing going for that after the fourth quarter for their Social Security cases, because it helps them obtain more resources through cost reimbursement. But I think that we're underselling the value of VR when you only do the fourth quarter up to four quarters after exit. And I realize that's a lot more than we used to do. But on the other hand, it's probably not the best way to tell the VR story, because you just don't capture everything. And younger population exacerbates this. You just don't capture it with all the impact of VR can be for an individual over time. So I think that's one of the things I have seen. We had a study we did from a long time ago, from the first since I did with David, Dean and Bob, where we had a program, that transition program, and the students that participated in it were focused on post-secondary opportunities, and they were measured against the counterpart group that went in the VR system of youth. And the other kids typically went to work faster than the participants in this program. But at year six, after application, the perk students took off in terms of their employment, and the other kids just they were still employed and they were doing well. But the perk kids took off with this post-secondary approach, which is what we're being asked to do now. And you really wouldn't have told the story if you only went for five years after application. So those are the kinds of things that I'm concerned about with the longitudinal data. Carol: Joe, so what about this to with it. You know, like especially blind agencies tend to provide a lot of the services themselves. What kind of problems are there with that and not sort of capturing the data? Joe: We have seen that as an issue with the 2007 data set. We have in the 2012 data set, we had and our colleagues in the blind agencies were very clear that there were services that they were providing that were critical to successful employment and adjustment, but we didn't have any way to capture it. And so you're, again, you're undervaluing the impact of those agency provided services by not capturing them. And I think that's going to be critical. I think there's some requirements now that they have to be reporting some of this information, but it's a question of whether it's getting into that case management system and it becomes readily available administrative data that can be used to help tell the story of the impact of the great work that these counselors and other kinds of specialists are providing to help people become employed and adjust into their settings. Bob, you want to talk a little bit about what you're seeing in the data? Bob: Well, yes. And now with the new data set, RSA 911, that quarterly report that all agencies have to provide and again for four quarters after closure that thing now they've made some changes and it's now required whereby types by 32 different service types they report. Did you provide purchase services during the quarter. If so how much did you provide it in-house or was it provided through a comparable benefit, some other external agency and that might have a dollar value attached to it? So we're going to use that data and see what we have. Now of course with any data set. Now I'll tell you purchase service data that's pretty reliable because they need to get their money back, right? They need to get reimbursed. They need to pay the bills. And so they track that through their accounting system very well. But the other things are and had entered often by counselors who are harried and busy and have a lot of other things to do, rather than this bureaucratic kind of form filling out, so it's only as good as the data that are put into it, and we won't know how good that is, but we'll see how much we learn. this way, hopefully we'll learn some things we didn't know. Joe: What we have been told is that the data is not there for us to capture, and that it undervalues the kind of work that's being done. So we're hoping we can find a way to tell that story, because it sounds pretty important. And then from my personal experience in managing some of these services, I know how hard these folks work and how valuable these services are. But if you can't capture it, you're not able to tell the story. Carol: Yep. If it isn't documented, it didn't happen. Joe: Yeah. Bob: That's right. Carol: So what are the next steps on the grant and how can we get folks involved? Are you needing people to help with anything, any states or anything we've got? Joe: North Carolina is, we're working very closely with them and they've been really good to work with. We will be once we get the prototype, I don't know what to call it. The economists are putting together the data system information so that they can begin to apply the new model and that'll be happening hopefully within a couple of months. And then once we've run the model a couple of times, we'll be asking some other people to come in sort of a national audience to take a look and hear what the model is, what it offers to get their feedback on. Yes, that would be useful or that doesn't seem to work for me much. Could you do this other thing? And then we'll also be asking them about. We'll be showing them what we've come up with for the simplified model to see if that version is going to work or if we need to be developing maybe a template RFP for them to use with a local institution that they work with, then they would be able to get the data set. So we're going to be looking at that. We may be asking folks to work with us a little bit on the capacity survey, where it talks about the training that states might be wanting to say, who can provide this kind of service, and would this be valuable to do to increase people's ability capacity? Because there's a lot of data needs out there. And I think if it would help our project, it would probably help a lot of other projects as well. Carol: So, Joe, are you thinking about that for fall, possibly at CSAVR or something? Joe: That's November. That should be a time when we would have an opportunity to gather some information. Yeah, because we might be ready for it by then. Of course, that might put a little pressure on the economists, but I don't mind doing that. Carol: Yeah. Bob's looking like, oh well okay. Bob: You love doing that, Joe. I mean, one of the things my major professor in graduate school always said, I love working on a research project where I learn something and what Joe said is exactly right. So we would take and vet our results to various agents. We may make a trip to the agency before Covid. We go and we sit down. We go through everything, explain what we're trying to do when we sell. And then they would say, that looks a little wonky or something, or did you do this? And you say, no, we didn't do that. Yeah, we could do that. Let's do it. And then we would revise the model or no, unfortunately we don't have enough information to do it. Could you collect it? You know, that kind of thing. So yeah, we keep learning things and that's what these groups are intended. That's what they're for. For our selfish purposes. That's what we like about them. Carol: That's excellent, you guys. Joe: So November would be good, Bob. Bob: So you say. Carol: Well, I'm definitely looking forward to seeing what comes out of all of this. And you were saying that the end of the grant then is in 2025. Joe: August 31st of 25. Bob: Right. Carol: All right. That's coming up quick you guys, really quick. Joe: Oh it is. Carol: Well, awesome I appreciate you both being on today. I cannot wait to hear more as this unfolds. So thanks for joining me. Joe: We really appreciate the opportunity. Bob: Yes we do. {Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!
Bob, it has been a while since we have talked to the contact center show audience, and there are some rumors that I want to put to bed. Bob, the word on the street is we got rich and famous and we stopped putting out new show. I've gotten some responses from our fans. Can you put these rumors to bed? What actually happened here? Bob Well, as you can see, I'm calling you from my yacht. So the rumors are not true. I don't think anyone who uses the word customer service anywhere in their title has gotten rich from being in customer service. I remember the times I used to work with my budgets and nobody got rich there. Maybe some famous authors got rich writing books about customer service. I don't know why both of us are not in that category, but I do say we had a lot of fun doing that podcast we did. And we want you to follow us to the next podcast we're doing. Amas Yes. Bob So let's talk a little bit about that. Amas Let's talk about that. And we're going to talk about the new show, the customer happiness show. But before we do that, I went back and I looked, and over the course of those years, we put out over 70 episodes. I don't know many people, and they average about 45 minutes each. I don't know many people who can talk for 3 hours about most topics. Why do you love contact centers and customer service? Why have you stayed in it most of your career? What's in it for you? Bob Well, first of all, if we put out 70 episodes, then I probably have run out of things to say at this point. So maybe that's the reason why we stopped talking about contact. Amas Good point. Bob What do I love about customer service? I love that customer service is almost always a human experience. And yes, I know that digital is going to take over the world and call centers are going to go away. And all the pontificating about how much we're not going to have a call center, I don't think those are right. And I love that human interactions are almost always part of the equation. And it's in those times that we walk away from a company more loyal, saying, that was a good experience. That is why I like customer service. What about you? What's your draw to customer service? Amas I think, Bob, it's a profession that has allowed me to utilize many parts of my brain and my know, there's a little behavioral economics there, right? How do you get people to do things, whether employees, customers, how do you get them to behave? There's a lot of technologies, technology, and a lot of things. And then there is what we used to call soft skills. And one of our few guests we had on the show taught us there was tough skills. That's a great episode. You guys go check that out. And by tough skills, people used to think about them as just pleases and thank you. There's a little art about how you deliver information, how you listen, how you do that. So you have to learn about those things as well. Then there's data involved, right? You got to measure everything because you're trying to do things efficiently and effectively. And as you know, I tried to go do something else for a little while last year, and I came right back and I'll probably spend the rest of my career doing this, and I can't imagine doing anything else. And so we've stopped putting out. I mean, we'll come occasionally and put out some shows here. The show is still going to be up, guys. You can get it. But we have made this pivot. And I got to tell you the story about how this came of. The name of the show, by the way, is the customer happiness show, but the name of the show, the format of the show, all of this came. I took a trip to Bob lives in Memphis and I live in Oklahoma City, and we go and see each other as often as time, and all of that permits. So I go there. We had a few beers in Memphis. We took that really long walk. I don't know how many miles that thing was. I wanted to see the little river thing. I don't know what you call that body of water, but we took that walk around it and we agonized about what this format will be. All we were sure about is we know that we've put out tons of contents to help contact center people around the world till this date. I still get emails that I don't forward to, Bob. They don't come in as often anymore because there are no new episodes. And every time someone mentions the show, it gives me lots of joy that we put that out. But we wanted to pivot to go talk to consumers, the Joe blow consumers out, Bob, and you can share more about. It's been months since we were having that conversation. Why are you excited about this format and specifically talking about consumers? What really excites you about it? Well, I think the very first time. Bob You and I were on a podcast together, if I'm not mistaken, was sometime in late 2019, where I joined yours, and we started talking in the same vein along. What do we get? Could we do a podcast together and our main number one goal was to have fun doing it. And I think we've met that number one goal. I hope we meet that number one goal with this one. But I'm excited because like you said, we talked a lot about sales and contact centers and walk up service and just about every kind of service. And it's always been the knowledge from the inside out. It's always been helping people on the inside do it better. So I'm excited to take all of those years of knowledge of what happens on the inside and turn it around. We did a show recently over on the new podcast about customer service at SiriusXM. And so what we're able to do is we understand service in general. So we're able to take the inside view and share it with the consumer and say, here are ways that you can be a better consumer to get better service. That's what excites me. It's from the outside. Amas I think. I think for me, Bob, similar to what you're saying, I feel like because we were so focused on the inside, the professionals, we were always helping the consumer. We were trying to teach people who delivered your service, contact center leaders, et cetera, to deliver your good service. Now we get to kind of be in the middle. We're going to focus on the consumer, bring all of our inside information in and teach consumers how to do that. I remember I'm a foodie, as you know, and Bob is as well. We both love food. And the book that changed the way I order out is Anthony Bourdain's kitchen confidential. And that's what I hope this is in know. He taught me that don't order the special, don't order the like because he was a chef and he knew all of that inside deal. And he didn't write the book for chefs, he wrote it for people who go out to eat. Until this date, when I walk into a restaurant, the things I learned from him still kind of echoes in my brain. And I hope this show becomes that. But the second reason I'm really excited is the format that we haven't told you guys about is we debated a little bit on the contact center show, but this show is all it is, all of us, not every single show, but for the most part, we are going back and forth. And I don't think it will surprise anyone who's listened to Bob and I over these four years that I win almost every time. So that part also excites me. I don't know if it excites Bob so much. Losing to me every week. But that part really gives me a lot of joy. Bob You definitely win every time you're talking because you say the most absurd things that I've ever heard, much like the. Amas One you just said. Bob But that is part of the reason for me also. I enjoy the back and forth. Amas So we are on the show and I suspect, and guys, you got to check out the show. I don't think the show is us. While it's called customer happiness, we are not on the show talking about how great customer service is. We are often on the show talking about some of the things and helping consumers navigate it better. So let me ask you, let me put you on the spot. What is your biggest pet peeve? You are a consumer. All of us are consumers. What's your biggest pet peeve? Put your customer hat on. Bob Well, mine is always when I'm told this is the policy and that's the only thing we can do. I hate hearing the word policy. I think that we probably make those agents that way because we do have a policy and we do tell them they can't negotiate. But that's my pet peeve because there should always be negotiation. In fact, I'll tell you an experience. I recently was at a well known shoe store and the employee came back and said, I'm sorry, but that's the policy. So I said, well, the policy doesn't make any sense. And he said something to the degree of, if I had a dollar for every time a corporate policy didn't make sense in my job, I'd be a millionaire. And so here's a guy that would really like to help me. Agrees with me that the policy is crazy. But he's quoting me the policy. So the policy for me is the one. I don't know what yours is. What's yours? Amas Mine is maybe dishonesty is too strong of a word. I don't like the fact that I go somewhere, they ask me for my email address to send me a receipt, and then here comes all these emails. I don't like the we will be with you shortly. Your call is important to us. They will call me and they won't call me back. It's these broken promises for me that makes customer service a pain at times. And so I actually prefer just tell me what I'm getting so that way I know what this is going to look like. So, guys, again, I would be remiss if I didn't say thank you to every single person over the years who downloaded the show, who subscribed who liked, who told people about it, who shared it, I cannot know. Two guys, one in Oklahoma City, one in Memphis. Two friends got on the phone and talked. And at the peak of our show, 4000 of you would download the show. I am incredibly just humbled and thankful and just hope we get a little bit of that success onto the next show. So we're asking you to stick with us. Come with us to the next show. You're going to learn something. You're going to hear us even hopefully funnier and more entertaining. And Bob, by the way, is semi retired now, which means God knows what's going to come out of his mouth. So please come join us. Bob Yeah, I'm on my own now. I can say what I really want to say instead of what I need to be careful how I say it. But you can join us on the same channels you're used to. So we're on Spotify, we're on Alexa, we're on Apple, we're on all the places that you get your podcast. We're still distributing to the same places. You can do a search on the customer happiness show. We're the only one out there with that name. So you can search on that. We'll put the link in, put the name at the end of this video. But as Amas said, thank you so much for your listening to us. I had somebody tell me that was a new research analyst that just began to work in the contact center space in a financial capacity as a research analyst. Tell me that she felt like she got more information from our podcast. And I said, well, how many did you listen to? She goes, I'm too embarrassed to tell you how many of them I listened to. But she said that she got a lot out of it and it felt like she understood both sides of the contact center world by listening. So it's just those kind of comments and the emails that you send that have made us keep doing it. We just hope you'll join us in the new one. Amas Awesome. Well, please subscribe. Like comment. The show is still going to be available, we're going to keep it going, and every now and then we'll pop in and maybe produce some new content. But please subscribe the customer happiness show wherever you get your podcast. Thank you all. Bye.
This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit nonzero.substack.comSeems like only last week I was saying there wouldn't be a Nonzero Newsletter sent out today, owing to the end-of-summer quasi-vacation granted to hard-working NZN staffers. And it's true that the Earthling, the weekend edition of NZN, is skipping this week and next. However, yesterday I had a conversation that was so timely and interesting that I figured I'd share some transcript excerpts—below—with NZN subscribers.The conversation is with Nikita Petrov, who left Russia shortly after the invasion of Ukraine but is monitoring the Russian zeitgeist (and publishing his newsletter Psychopolitica) from Armenia. The subject of the conversation is Yevgeny Prigozhin, long-time leader of the mercenary Wagner Group.This June, you might remember, Prigozhin staged a short-lived mutiny against Russia's military leadership. So when his plane blew up a couple of days ago, pretty much everyone suspected Putin's handiwork. (Although, as Nikita explains, according to a conspiracy theory circulating in Russia, there's less to Prigozhin's apparent death than meets the eye.)Paid subscribers can listen to the full conversation via the audio player above or via their NZN member podcast feed. (To set up that feed, if you're a paid subscriber and haven't done that already, click “Listen on” in the audio player and follow the directions.) Hope you enjoy the excerpts below. More of the conversation will be available in the public podcast we post next week, though the Overtime segment—the final 40 minutes or so—will remain exclusive to paid subscribers.—BobBob: We're taping this on the day after a plane went down that apparently included Yevgeny Prigozhin, the head of the Wagner Group, along with his top commander, the guy from whom the Wagner Group got its name—“Wagner” was his call sign. Nikita: Yep.Bob: And I actually haven't even looked at the news this morning, but it didn't seem to me there was that much doubt, even though they hadn't identified bodies or anything. I assume no one's doubting that he's— Nikita: Well, there are two main theories that I've been hearing. One is the straightforward one: Prigozhin and the top command are dead, and Putin is behind it. The other version is: This is Prigozhin's disappearance. He's somewhere on an island right now drinking a martini, and this is his way out of the business. Normally I would say there's no reason whatsoever to contemplate that approach. But since this is Prigozhin, and we've seen like six fake passports of his with toupees and beards and whatnot. And generally, he's, you know, a peculiar character, he's fighting in Africa, and then he's in Ukraine, and he also has a catering business, and a troll farm. I think that's not a zero-chance probability, but I don't think it's a high-chance probability either.Bob: On the other hand, Russia has always been a hotbed for this kind of theorizing, right? Nikita: Yes. Yes. It's a normal thing for Russians. Whatever happens, there's always a conspiracy theory right away.Bob: So there's a pretty high false positive rate on conspiracy theories in Russia—and increasingly in America. Maybe this can bring the two nations together, that we have this in common.Nikita: I think there is some overlap. I mean, before the war, there were tribes within Russia and the US who were growing closer together, like the QAnon people. And even with the war—Bob: That kind of makes sense actually. Go ahead.Nikita: I was surprised. About a month and a half ago, RFK [Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.] got into that scandal because he said something about Covid, and the way his words were interpreted was that there is a chance that it was designed by the Chinese in a lab and it targets certain groups more than others.Bob: Right. Nikita: And he started talking about bioweapons and whatnot. I think he talked about biolabs in Ukraine. Bob: Yeah. That's a thing. That's a talking point.Nikita: Until then, I was not aware that anybody in the West thinks that. But it was a big part of the Russian propaganda, some versions of which are very strange. On the one hand, according to Russian state propaganda, the Russians and Ukrainians are really the same people, but also, there are biolabs in Ukraine that were designing viruses that would target specifically Russians.Bob: It's a very discerning virus! It picks up on the most subtle differences in DNA. . . .Bob: But, on Prigozhin, tell me… presumably the [staged disappearance] theory is that he actually feared something like this happening for real, right? I mean, he didn't feel safe in this world. Nikita: Either that, or another version of the same theory would be that he made a deal with Putin, that this is how I'm gonna go out. Bob: Oh, and then you [Putin] will look like you were the tough guy and did crack down. Nikita: That's right. And I'll [Prigozhin] get my pension and I'm fine. Bob: I've got a feeling he doesn't need a pension. I forget how much cash was found in his apartment, but I suspect that he's got stashes in various places. Nikita: [laughter] That's right. Bob: So anyway, your sense is, not that you're in Russia, but your sense is that this will be a minority interpretation anyway, that he's not actually dead?Nikita: From what I've heard so far, most people say there's also this possibility, but it's probably a low possibility. So, I haven't met a true believer in this theory so far. I mean, it's been a day—it's been less than a day. But it's brought up and discussed as a low probability option. And we will never know, I suppose, because the bodies are burned. We're not going to see a picture of Prigozhin that we can recognize. And the people who will tell us (and they might have already; I saw some reports that sounded more official than what I saw last evening, saying yes, this is Prigozhin and Utkin and the other passengers who were supposed to be on the plane) the people who are going to tell us this are the authorities, which if they are the ones who decided to do this staged disappearance, you know, you're not supposed to trust them.Bob: Right. Nikita: But I don't think it matters, frankly. I think that's the low probability version, and I don't think it matters, because both options lead to Prigozhin not being here anymore. If he lives a private life on an island somewhere—Bob: He seems out of the picture. And everyone else will act on the assumption that Putin did it.Nikita: That's right. Bob: Is your sense that among those Russians who do believe Prigozhin's dead, overwhelmingly the assumption is Putin decided to take him out? Nikita: Yes. Yes. Bob: I can't even come up with another theory. Has it been confirmed that there was an anti-aircraft missile fired at the plane, or is that still—Nikita: No, I think they are saying now that there was an explosive in the chassis, the wheel of the plane. And they say they have a suspect, Prigozhin's private pilot, who was supposed to be on the flight maybe, or at least was able to access the plane. And he's MIA somewhere. Some friend of his said that he's trekking in Siberia, or something along those lines. So, they have a suspect and a theory. It doesn't go further than that guy so far, like, why would his pilot do this? But I think that might become the official narrative. This is what I'm seeing this morning.Bob: So is it confirmed that the pilot was not on the plane, the regular pilot? Nikita: I think. He was called Prigozhin's private pilot. I'm not sure he was supposed to be on this plane. He just flew with Prigozhin before, so they are singling him out as a suspect. Bob: I see. Do you think Putin would go to the trouble to frame somebody, and do the whole court proceeding, and put them in prison? I mean, it's weird, because presumably Putin wants a certain crowd to know he did it, including possibly much of the world, right? He wants some people to think, yeah, Putin cracked down, let's don't plot any mutinies anytime soon. I mean, that's the thing about this. It's so blatant, right? With most of the past assassinations attributed to Putin, there wasn't rock solid evidence. And in fact, I would run into smart people who paid attention, and I'd say, what do you think the chances are that this guy was taken out by Putin? They'd say, well, probably, or 90 per cent or 95 per cent. I don't think you're going to hear many people as low as 95 per cent on this one. It seems like this time, it's a more unabashed assassination.Nikita: I think that's true. But also, nobody tried to, you know, take his private army and march on Moscow before. Bob: Right, right. Absolutely. You know, right after this happened, right after the mutiny, and after the deal was negotiated, American Russia hawks like Michael McFaul said, see, all this stuff about how Putin if you corner him is dangerous, is wrong. We don't need to worry about pushing them out of Crimea and back into Russia and even, what is happening now, attacks on Russian territory. McFaul said, this just shows he'll fold; it's a bluff. What McFaul said is that he capitulated. And first of all, I pointed out, he did not capitulate. He didn't meet Prigozhin's demands. That's capitulation, if you do fire Shoigu and Gerasimov, the two military chiefs he wanted fired. And I'd be interested in your take on this. Leave aside the fact that apparently, ultimately, Prigozhin paid the ultimate price. I thought, given the situation Putin was in, he didn't handle it that badly. I mean, you've got 5,000 troops marching to Moscow. Things could get seriously out of hand, even if you're confident you can put it down. These people are considered war heroes by a lot of Russians, right? They're the guys who did Bakhmut. They have a base. And after Wagner had shot down the planes, to get out of it with no further bloodshed… Leaving aside the fact that ultimately Putin had it both ways, he finessed it without a big confrontation and got Prigozhin killed, what did you think after the event?Nikita: Well, first of all, during the event itself, and the few days after, the prevalent feeling among all the Russians I know, whether inside or outside Russia, was just how bizarre this whole thing is. Especially as the events were unfolding, like, he started to march, you start to get these audio messages, you get updates in Telegram from Prigozhin himself.For a while, it wasn't clear whether this is actually happening or not. He's saying that they're marching on Rostov and it's like, is he? I haven't seen any pictures. It's just Prigozhin saying that, and he's known for playing games. And then suddenly there are tanks in Rostov.And then he's saying he's marching on Moscow. My brother was in Moscow at the time, and he went into the streets, and he said it was a weird, weird feeling, having been there for a long time, that the cops and the people are on the same side, because the cops in Moscow and people in Moscow were expecting this army to show up. And the cops seemed nervous and unsure what to do.. . .Nikita: So the prevalent feeling from this whole experience was just: This is bizarre and weird. When the analysis started to come in three days, four days after the thing, I had the feeling that maybe this is us trying to pretend that we understand what is going on. Because these past couple of days, nobody knew what was happening. Every theory was thrown out there, whether it's staged, whether it's real. You've heard these, you know, Prigozhin agreed with Putin that he's going to do this thing to find the people who are actually not loyal enough. There was all of this, and nobody had a good theory because the straightforward one seemed also too weird.Bob: Yeah.Nikita: But now in the aftermath, I agree with you that Putin did not lose control. And now, the Russian word they use is signal. This is a strong signal that he's sending that if you try to do this, you're going to blow up.But I think a lot of people did feel as this was happening, surely, that this is not the behavior of a strong leader, because he was nowhere to be found. The day of, Peskov, his spokesperson, said that Putin knows about the situation. But that was all. And then in the morning, he [Putin] made this speech. And during the day, as this was happening, there weren't a lot of people who really jumped in front of the situation and said, I support the president of my country and this is mutiny. They started saying that as the situation progressed and it became more clear that this is what you're supposed to be doing.. . .(Overtime segment available to paid subscribers below the paywall.)0:42 Nikita's life as an expatriate 5:18 Theories among Russians about Prigozhin's death 17:29 Putin's handling of the Wagner mutiny, reassessed 25:46 Did Prigozhin lose his mind? 35:36 How worried should Putin be about Prigozhin's supporters? 43:15 Russians' evolving views of the invasion 50:50 Is Putin feeling heat from the nationalist right? Robert Wright (Bloggingheads.tv, The Evolution of God, Nonzero, Why Buddhism Is True) and Nikita Petrov (https://psychopolitica.substack.com/). Recorded August 24, 2023.Comments on BhTV: http://bloggingheads.tv/videos/66636 Twitter: https://twitter.com/NonzeroPods
16: South Dakota Public Defense w/ Tim Rensch & Bob Pesall South Dakota is like many states around the country in that there are some public defender offices in the “cities,” but the rest of the state is served through an assigned council system. Today, I talk to two incredibly experienced and knowledgeable assigned councils in the state: Tim Rensch and Bob Pesall. Each shares a different perspective on public defense in South Dakota, Tim being in an urban area and Bob being in a rural one. With few outside evaluations of public defense in the state, we go through the nuances and strengths of the system in South Dakota. Tim and Bob are two extraordinary examples of assigned councils that go above and beyond for their clients and truly care about the quality of the system. Key Topics and Takeaways: How Tim and Bob got into public defense & their roles. [5:49] The number of assigned councils in the state. [12:54] The Catastrophic Legal Expense Relief Program. [17:43] The importance of expert witnesses. [22:02] The struggles of those who suffer from addiction and mental illness in the system. [28:54] How the debt of cycle perpetuates criminality. [47:02] The future direction of public defense in South Dakota. [50:18] Guests: Tim Rensch, President Rensch Law Corporation, South Dakota Assigned Counsel, Bob Pesall, Assigned Counsel, Flanders South Dakota Resources: Rensch Law Corporation Pesall Law Firm Memorable Quotes: “I've never called myself a public defender. I always have said I'm a court-appointed lawyer and I've always had great admiration for the public defenders who work the ins and outs of the court system every day.” (7:21, Tim) “It can be a little tricky when you try and weigh the cost-benefit of getting lawyers on board versus the actual seriousness of the case.” (17:11, Bob) “So the judges really, truly want to get people what they need. They just don't want to be burning money on experts that are useless.” (25:44, Bob) “I think meth is a horrible drug. It's the only drug for which you've never heard anybody advocate socially about any useful benefit whatsoever. And it's a shame what happens.” (34:25, Tim) “I think people are indigent. That means that they don't have the money to hire a lawyer. And to me, it does seem unfair to take somebody who is defined as indigent and then force them to pay these attorney's fees. No matter the outcome.” (39:47, Tim) “I think that there are good experiences and bad experiences. The experiences that I've had, and that I'm aware of are mostly good. People want defendants to be represented. They want them to be represented by good lawyers. They don't want to have to redo things three times. And generally, the thought is, is that the system wants to be fair and be good to people.” (51:14, Tim) Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram www.publicdefenseless.com
Max: Hello and welcome back to the Recruitment Hackers Podcast. I'm your host, Max Armbruster, and today on the show I've got a world traveler, a man who I first interacted with in Malaysia a few years ago and who has since moved industries and has worked in entertainment, in games today, and a few other, and oiling gas before, and is today the Director of People and Legal for Big Viking Games. Welcome to the show, Bob. Mr. Bob St-Jacques, I hope I'm pronouncing it right. Welcome to the show, Bob.Bob: All right, well thank you, Max, happy to be here.Max: Pleasure to have you. And of course, we interacted with Bob when he was leading the people function at a company called 7Geese which got acquired by Paycor which is a leader in OKR methodologies. So, for the HR performance enthusiasts that are listening, they'll be familiar with OKR methodology and it's a great foundation for start-ups. So, anyway, that's a little bit about your background but perhaps, Bob, I'd like to ask you to walk us back to the early days of how you ended up working in talent acquisition and dealing with people. Was it by design or by accident?Bob: It was by design because I had a very good mentor and it was, going back a few years, 1992 and I was going to get a master's in industrial relations with Cornell and my mentor suggested, he said, what do you want to do? I said, I wanna do HR. He said, no no no that's not gonna work. He said what you need to do is pick a problem. Pick something that you wanna pour your heart and soul into and I said, well HR is basically broken, right? 91, 92, there was a recession going on in North America. I was working in Parliament at the time, so we were holding hearings, and nobody was happy. Employees, employers, communities would lay off. Nobody was happy. So, I said, hey look this is one of those problems that, like climate change, it's big and I can't fix all of it, but maybe I can fix something. So, he said, look if you wanna do that, go to law school and practice employment law then go into HR because you will spend the first five years learning from other people's mistakes. So that's exactly what I did. I went to law school, practiced employment law for five years and then got hired by my client. And basically, what I've done since 2000 is work on transformation efforts. So, in the beginning, they were turned around. So, I worked for a client who's called the Lens Crafters and they were in pretty rough shape, but if anybody wonders why I'm an optimist two and a half years later they're number 58 on the Fortune 100 best companies to work for list. Then I worked at Delta Airlines after 9/11, so I turned them around, right. So, this is why my optimism comes in. Moved to Dubai, things got a little bit more difficult because I had to help transform companies that were in scale-up and that were already growing about a hundred percent every year and how do you tell those folks, you're leaving money on the table you need to do more. So that was a further challenge and so I helped a lot of high growth organizations in Dubai, all over the Middle East, South Asia and Africa as well, worked in oil and gas in Nigeria for example. And then I went to the Far East and started focusing on tech, tech high-growth companies, tech scale-ups in that area and I've done the same thing here in Vancouver. So, the central theme is I've kept to my mission which is I want to help HR. And that's what I've done throughout my whole career. Sometimes, as you mentioned, being an OKR expert, spreading the love and the gospel of it, of OKRs, and sometimes there's goals more specific toward the company.Max: I think it's good advice for the young people to walk towards the problem, not away from the problem. You see an industry that's broken and a company that has issues and, you know, don't run away from it. That's an opportunity to make an impact and to work on a whole career duration on fixing something. I can empathize with that on my end. I saw a lot of broken things that I'm still trying to fix on high volume recruitment. So, maybe a word about Big Viking Games, your current company, which I understand has gone through some transformation over the last few months since you've been there for six months now. And we're gonna talk about how the talent acquisition strategy has been transformed to expand the talent pool. But can you set the scene for us, what does this company do?Bob: Yeah, so, Big Viking Games was started at, well I could tell you, it was 10 years ago in about a month. We just celebrated our 10th anniversary which is a pretty big deal. Only 4% of companies make it to 10 years so we had a fun event for everybody, and we managed to bring a bunch of people together. Now the challenge was six months ago is that the company had been making games but had been kinda flat-lined and just kinda been bumbling along for the past three four years. And so, they were looking to revive and expand. And the interesting piece is that in the gaming industry it's usually boom and bust all the time, right. Hire a bunch of people to make a new game, I'll make some money, oh you sold it off and then you drop the right number of employees and the revenue goes like this, it's big yoyo. So, what they decided was that's not sustainable and that's not great for employees. Employees in the gaming industry will tell you, yeah, I've been laid off and hired, right. You look at gaming LinkedIn profiles and they've all had 14 jobs in 10 years and it's not because they're job-hoppers, it's been most of the time because they've been laid off. So, the company decided to move towards a live operations model. What does that mean? It means they don't create their own games, they either expand things that they have, and they typically buy intellectual property and then expand it and run it. So that's a big switch from making games boom-and-bust to just kind of like very linear growth. And so, it's a challenge because you need different types of people, different types of mindset in that area.Max: Basically, in the oil and gas, it's like moving from being a builder to an operator.Bob: Correct. And so, there was the challenge. We need different types of individuals, different types of talents. and we needed to grow, and we were looking at acquisitions and so on. So fast forward, six months, what we have found ourselves is before we were in one vertical where we had a Facebook/Web games there which you know was alot so we had really high MPS scores. 70% of our players play our game 27 out of 28 days which is pretty impressive for games right. So, we got this loyal fan base. But now, we've attached, we've done an acquisition, we've expanded on a couple areas and so as folks will see throughout December, we will be putting out press releases in these areas. So, where we were in one verticals, we will not be in four verticals starting in January as we close these deals. So that's created some challenges and opportunity areas as well because we got new places we're expanding into and we're also expanding our current offerings. So, another piece of good news and we just got it less than 24 hours ago, again talk about the power transformation. When I joined, the Glassdoor score for the company was 2.2, when I said things are bumbling along, it was a bit in rough shape. Yesterday we were just notified by the Great Place To Work Institute that we are certified by them as a great place to work. So, when people talk about transformation is too hard, and I love the phrase that you used, running towards the problem. So, if you look at things as an opportunity in terms of aligning people behind the business strategy, OKRs and things like that, once you get alignment and you clarified the strategy for everybody, employees tend to follow along, right, to support you in that area, and that's what we found.Max: Congrats on the Great Place To Work and the transformation, I mean it's not a turn-around, but it's kind of a pivot for Big Viking Games and of course it does sound like a nicer environment for people who want a bit of stability after they changed 14 different jobs in 10 years. That could work your nerves out a little bit. Let's turn to the topic of talent acquisition and you changed the process there as well which you were telling me before we started recording. The testing has started to effect, the use of automated assessments, has changed the composition of your talent people and allowed you to expand to new talent pools. Bob: Correct. So, what we did was, again, because of the challenges that we face in terms of going into new areas we needed new and different talent, is that we decided to turn the whole selection testing paradigm on its head. Usually, people use these tools as deselection tools. So how do we get folks to get them out of the process. We test them and then that's it, they're out and so on. We turned that around. What we wanted to do was opt people in. Let me give you an example. Here's like, we were down to the basics. If we look at a situation where we're looking for a developer, an artist, and so on. Nowhere in the job description does it require these individuals to be excellent at creating resumes. And not to pick on developers, they're not, they're really really bad at writing resumes, right, and showing their skills set and so on and so forth. So, what we said was, you know, we get hundreds of applications, some case thousands of applications per position, you try to read through them the best you can, right. Most people they do a good job of communicating their skills, they tend to get interviews and so on. But what we did was like we're missing people; we're missing some diamonds in the rough. So, what we did was when we saw, we went beyond, right, when somebody was working at a grocery store, but like went down the resume and saw that they had worked as a developer before, right, and for whatever reason they're working at a grocery store now. But like fine. So, what we do is we tested these people in the beginning. And the quid pro quo is we said, look we'll test your own skills, resilience, and general ability, and you know what, we will give you the test, we will give you the feedback, we will give you your scores, the test, the report, everything, just work with us on this. Now here's what happened, if we would have taken one of those CVs which is in pretty rough shape and give it to the VP of Engineering, you would have said, are you kidding me, I can't. Now what happens is if this person's score is very high, intelligence, problem solving, resilience, and skills set, we can say, look this is a CV it's not so great, but look here we have documented proof that this person should be interviewed and move on to the next level.Max: So, the first time the candidate is speaking to somebody, a recruiter or somebody from your team, they've already done the assessments, how long does that assessment typically take. Half an hour, an hour?Bob: Yeah, no more than an hour, right, cause there's four components to it and then they're about 10-15 minutes each. Max: So, then the big question for a lot of employers is, you know this is a very high demand market. I'm sure for hiring artists and developers is very hard as well. How is that not shrinking your talent pool to a very miniscule amount. Sounds great, you know, of course, you get an assessment done before an interview, but that's not how recruitment used to be done. You used to, like, hit the phone and hunt these people. So how you filling the top of the funnel.Bob: In terms of the top of the funnel, those are coming through via ads and so on. So top of the funnel is fine for us. The important piece here is that when we were talking to the folks at various testing regimes, a lot of them said, when we said, hey we wanna offer the test back to the candidate, and they're like why? And I said, well that's the quid pro quo, that's the magic there. Because people will do things if there's something in it for them. Now there are, we use, for example, I don't know if I can say it maybe you could cut it out later if I'm not allowed to, but we use Test Gorilla. Test Gorilla has a certain amount of cache and individuals who take their test are allowed to use their results and give it to other employers. Max: I tried them out. I think they're great. Test Gorilla very easy to use and they have a very wide selection. They're a Netherlands-based company, all self-service, easy to use with APIs to integrate. So, love it.Bob: So that's what we do, right. So, we give people something and that's how we keep the testing level quite high. Now here's the interesting piece because we look at data, so I'm also a fellow in the Center for Evidence-based Management so I am really big on data, right. I wear a watch, I keep track, I can tell you what my macros were last Tuesday at 3pm. I am a fanatic about measuring everything. So, what we did was we said, okay what happened to people who went through the process. So applied or head-hunted, interview, tech test, our very difficult tech test versus applied, Test Gorilla, interview, tech test. What we found was that the uptake on our tech test during our traditional process was 50% five zero. When they took the quick test, got something for it, did the interview and had to do a very in-depth tech test, we're looking at about 85-90%. So, we nearly doubled the people. So even though we've added an extra level, again it's the counter-intuitive piece and this is why you need to look at data. Because if you were to ask me, I would have said, yeah, I don't think this will work. But it's important to measure what you do and put your scientist hat on and say, this is an experiment, it can blow up in my face or it can produce the most wonderful thing every. What we found is because we start by giving something, yes, they're investing their time but they're getting something back for it. People feel like, okay, you know, they continue with the processMax: How do you communicate to them that they're getting something? How do you let them know that they're gonna get something back?Bob: So, when we let them know that they've been selected for the initial test, we tell them, hey look, here's the advantages, you get to keep your test, here's the feedback, here's sample reports, and with some of the skills in tech testing, they're transferable and other employers accept. Max: Yeah, they can get like an act of accreditation that they can put on their profile or something. Bob: Correct, yeah, and it'll be verified by Test Gorilla.Max: Cool. Well, I certainly think you're not alone in making this happen right now. There's a change in candidate behaviors worldwide where they're getting used to it basically. There was an intuition from the TA community that this is too much, but that intuition is being tested and minds are changing on this topic, including mine. I can't believe the completion rates that I hear about for test that take 45 minutes to an hour and I'm shocked myself. Because I always assume that with the shrinking attention span of the young generations that we know about that this is something that they would not do. But well, that's why you gotta test your assumption.Bob: Yeah, and part, this came from one of my recruiters who tends to skew towards the younger generation, and he said, look people are taking these Buzzfeed and other quizzes all the time. There are millions of people, right. And they get a report back. You're a part of this house in Harry Potter and you're this type of potato, and you're this type of vegetable. You know, these people take those quizzes all the time. He said, look it's a higher level and it's something that's verified from a real company, like Test Gorilla. They got something that can help the in their job search and/or career and/or professional life. One other thing that I wish I could say, oh yeah yeah you know we totally planned this, again, because I look at the numbers and what we found by focusing on skills rather than ability to write a resume or CV is that for the past six months, 43% of our new hires are women and 52% are what we call here in Canada BIPOCs, so black, indigenous or people of color. So, again compared that to the rest of the gaming and tech industry, especially here in North America, we're doing quite well, we're on the right track. And I wish I could have said, oh we planned this, you know we did reach to certain group, you know, in those areas, but what we found again by focusing more on skills and abilities and less on the resume, we ended up with a much more diverse workforce. Max: Congratulations. That's the right way to go about it. Focus on competency, give everybody a chance. Glad to see it's paying off and helping you increase your DI metrics. There's maybe another element which is the fact that you're breaking down some of the borders and some of the geographical boundaries of your search and you were telling me how you're leveraging Canada as part of your employer brand. Can you share that story?Bob: Yeah, when the pandemic hit, the decision was made early on, and we basically cancelled our leases with our offices. We had two studios, one in London, Ontario which is about two hours west of Toronto and one is downtown Toronto, and so gone, studios gone. So, they went all in on transitioning to 100% remote. Again, sounds very good in theory but everybody was learning on the go, so to speak, and you know you've seen all the stories from everywhere from LinkedIn to all kinds of magazines.Max: I've seen my own rental bills go down and I'm very happy about it.Bob: Yeah. So, the thing is then it's taking a lot of that and investing in different pieces. So, in terms of talent acquisition, what is 100% in what we call Remote Awesome. It's a campaign that we started where you're free to move about the world. So, it's telling our Canadian employees, look you're not stuck in Canada. If you wanna go work in Barbados or Mexico for the winter, you could do that too. In terms of recruitment, though, what's happened is we've done two fronts. We said, look, you can come work for us, we work on a concept of core hours, and we do asynchronous work, and you can stay where you are. You could then stay where you are for six months and come to Canada if you want. Or if you want to come to Canada, we will help facilitate your move to Canada. So we tend to take a wide open approach and say, it's up to you. People are at different points of their lives, so some folks come to work for us and boom, either we start the process fairly quickly and other folks will say, yeah next summer, you know, basically July 2022 is when I'd like to apply, it'll take x amount of time, that'll be perfect. So, we, by focusing on, hey either we're able to work based on your interest. Staying where you are, including asynchronous work so you're not working from 11PM to 7AM, some sort of horrible shift. You know maybe like for example, I start work at 5AM because east coast time and we have exec meetings in the morning. Why do we have that? Because some of our executive team is in India and they've been working the large part of the day, right. So, it's that kind of flexibility that we can offer people and say, no everybody in the world has to work eastern standard time hours. That's not the case. And so, we offer flexibility, stay where you are, move later or move now. And so, with that approach, we've managed to get some amazing talents. So, we've grown from employees in two countries when I've joined, we're now up to 14 countries.Max: And their contracts are, some of them are local contracts and some of them are Canadian contracts and some of them are consultant contracts?Bob: Exactly. So, it depends on how long they're gonna spend. So, if you're on your way here, it's a consultant contract, right. So, it helps with integration so we could show immigration, we know who they are, they've worked with us for a little while, bring them in. If they wanna stay there permanently, then we use a local vendor that we pay people through and so that makes sure that all the right deductions are made, and they get access to all the social benefits. For example, France, Netherlands, and the UK. I think in France I think there was like 27 deductions from an individual's salary. So that was interesting to see. But again ---Max: Now you know why I left the country. Bob: Yeah. But that's managed for us. So, we just pay one entity an amount for an employee, and they handle all the deductions and payments. Max: There are a lot of vendors helping with this domain now and I suppose people can reach out to you if they need some recommendations on how to source the right vendor here. Have you had a discussion internally about having local payrates? I mean, you said people can work from anywhere. So, I guess everybody is paid, there's no differences based on where you live and their cost of living. Usually, people have different pay scales for different, let's say, geographies.Bob: No, we run on CTC, which is concept called cost-to-company. So, we look at it, right, so some have higher social legislation requirements, we'll call it that, some have lesser, right. But at the end of the day, what we look at is what the company pays out overall. So that people are paid about the same no matter where they are in the world. Again, we focus on skills, competencies, and so where you are doesn't matter because we do have a fairly tough and rigorous hiring system. So, if you do get through it, we know you're qualified, we know you're able to produce a certain amount of work which has a certain amount of value and we will pay you, just like we pay everybody else that's in a similar position to you no matter where you are. Max: Great, that's great. We in my company also universal pay scales and I'm trying to ring them up to San Francisco standards, but some people on LinkedIn were saying we're not as generous as we should be, but we're working up to it. If the whole world could be paid like San Francisco that'd be awesome. We're working towards that. We're reaching the end of our conversation and there's one question I'd like to ask everybody that comes on the show which is to go back to a hiring mistake that you've made in the past that has stayed with you a little bit and that you had time to reflect on so that you can share with the listeners the lesson that they can take from bad hiring mistake. Of course, I'm not asking for individual name but rather how you took a misstep that one time.Bob: Yes, and so I'm gonna go a little bit against the grain, because I know I've highlighted that I tend to focus on data and information. So, one time I went through a process I was hiring a fairly senior member of my team, Global Recruitment Director, and you know we're getting close, and it was very exciting. When I was doing that, I was asking for references, and when I talked to these references, it was very, something was off. And I'm a lawyer and I could just ask people all kinds of questions, usually you could get them to admit the most horrific thing they did when they were thirteen years old. And I thought I was very good, but something was eating at me, like, I'm missing something, like something's wrong here in this area. And it turned out that I was not as prepared as I could be for those reference checks. Three months later, that individual turned into a nightmare on many fronts, internal, external. It did a lot of reputational damage to the company from that individual. And it's one of those pieces where I've learned where I was a little bit cocky, and I didn't listen to my gut. So rather than be the experimenter, you know what I mean, something came up, I should've asked more questions and I didn't because I was in a hurry and i wanted to find this person, and this individual seemed great, right. And I cut corners, didn't listen to my gut and ended up coming back to be quite embarrassing for me. Max: That's a tough one right because you said you're the data guy and the guts got nothing to do with it, we're trying to silence that thing. But in this case, something was wrong with the reference check. Can you expand on that a bit? What were maybe some signals?Bob: It was the guarded nature, right. I talked at high levels, we tend to be quite positive, right. So, when you talk to people and say, okay you know hey I'm going to be managing this individual what kind of development do you think that they need? And it was two references where there was a pause and I thought that was fascinating. On that pause, I should've jumped on that more. But it was ---Max: This person needs therapy. Okay. All right. So, listen to the pause when you're doing your reference checks because obviously nobody likes to say bad things about their former employees. It can be a treacherous territory so you gotta be very attentive. Good lesson for everyone to remember. Thanks, Bob, for coming on the show and sharing your experience in expanding your talent pool and transforming the recruitment process of Viking Games. It's been a pleasure. Bob: All right. Well, thank you for having me on.Max: Pleasure.
Bob talks about how a visit to Facebook / Instagram headquarters led to an instant business idea that helped to launching Feedstories. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqAi0v605lU Transcription Brian: You touched briefly on Feedstories. Why don't you tell us a little more about what that is how it came about? Bob: So that's interesting, that period between like 2010 and 2013, I was doing a lot of things to kind of find my way again, after you kind of lose an agency, you know, I was just kind of freelancing. I hosted a radio show for a number of years doing kind of what you and I are doing right now, which is great, got to meet a lot of new people help other people, write books. But 2013, I got heavily involved in Facebook. Facebook started to become a media that advertisers could take seriously. I got my first five clients, and one of them just went into the stratosphere. It was a clothing brand. In fact, it was a headband company, and it just took off. One of the best things I did with that client early on was I said, got a headband. It's, you know, it's a $15 headband, I said, anyone can knock this off. I said, but they can't knock off your story. I said, we're going to build your whole advertising and your whole kind of foundation based on your story. And your story is what's going to sell headbands, and I was right. I was really glad was right, but I knew kind of internally that would be that way. This business called Bolder Brand Headband, they won Shopify retailer of the Year in 2014, driven by Facebook sales, like 99% of their sales came from Facebook. Facebook recognized that and said, Hey, Bob, we're having this meeting with some other big brands want you to come in, we're going to kind of brainstorm I had a chance over a number of years to meet with Facebook. But in 2016, in particular, I went to this meeting and all they talked about was video, Facebook said we're a video company now Instagram, which's is owned by Facebook says we're a video company now. And I'm like, Okay, this is my like, I'm looking ahead toward the future. And I went outside of the meeting was in the sidewalk outside of Facebook headquarters in Austin, Texas. I called Brandon, who's my business partner for Feedstores. Brian is a creative guy, he's a copywriter, he's a video graphic guy. I said, we really need to be prepared for this because Facebook and Instagram are changing who they are, and video is going to be like the thing that they are emphasizing the most. And so we started that company, literally a conversation over the phone, came into the same city kind of put this thing together and started feed stories in late 2016. That's how Feedstories was formed. It was literally what I heard Facebook and Instagram telling me that they were going to prioritize. And so if I'm going to continue to be a really good Facebook advertiser, I need to have really good video creative. And why not create a company that produces the creative that I know is going to work in the Facebook ad. That's how that company was born and we're going strong here in 2021, so far.
Bob talks about how a visit to Facebook / Instagram headquarters led to an instant business idea that helped to launching Feedstories. Transcription Brian: You touched briefly on Feedstories. Why don’t you tell us a little more about what that is how it came about? Bob: So that’s interesting, that period between like 2010 and […] The post The Beginning of Feedstories (Bob Regnerus of Feedstories Interview) first appeared on BrianJPombo.com.
Part 3, of our seven-part interview with Bob Regnerus of Feedstories. Topics covered in this episode How a Meeting at Facebook Headquarters led to the beginning of FeedstoriesThe Power of Your Businesses StoryNavigating through COVID-19How COVID-19 led to an increase in demand for video content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PStjuHKOykk Transcription Intro Brian: Bob Regnerus of Feedstories, part 3. Hi I'm Brian Pombo, welcome back to Brian J. Pombo Live. Today's part three of our series with Bob Regnerus. I hope you've been watching, if not go back and watch the rest of them. If you'd like to be on this podcast as in a conversation with me, or if you'd like to have me on your podcast or speak at your event, go check out BrianJPombo.com, for all the details. So here is part 3. Brian: What do you think that most businesses can learn from that, in terms of you mentioned having cash on hand. What are the other things that you think that made the biggest difference for you that you think other people could learn from? Bob: Well, for me, it was investing in things that have the ability to be flexible. So team members that are flexible with multiple skill sets technology, like we were perfectly positioned to be remote. In fact, our company's been remote for years, we were on zoom before zoom was cool, we had used it. So essentially, that didn't change. We also had this enthusiasm for what could be, but we also had a sense of what could go wrong? Now, the reason we're able to do that is we're in a mastermind with Perry. And as you know, Perry's my friend, he's a client, we do business together, but I also pay him for mentorship, because he's so wise. And we went through an exercise, January of 2019, which is like, what could go wrong in your business this year? Now, nobody predicted COVID, but we had some scenarios like, okay, you know, if our technology failed, or we went through probably five or six scenarios, it got us thinking. Even then, like, what would happen if? We weren't shocked when COVID happened. We certainly had this sense of dread like everybody else. But we had been exercising our what if muscles and had in mind, like, everything's not going to be rosy. So we're mentally prepared for what happened. And I was really proud of kind of how we just, we didn't panic, we had some really thoughtful consideration of how we're going to move forward. And we positioned ourselves well, we were prepared for some worst case scenarios. I think that's one thing as entrepreneurs, we're always thinking like, the best is going to happen. And I love that part of being an entrepreneur, every project we get involved in, we think this is gonna be great. We haven't unbridled enthusiasm for it, and you have to, but you also have that sense of, okay, what if this doesn't work out? Or what if this idea doesn't pan out? You want to have contingencies, you want to have plans in place. Maybe that comes from my upbringing, maybe it comes from experience, I don't know. But it just seems like the right way to approach things. Or you don't kind of have rosy blinders on and you're oblivious to the fact that we live on an imperfect planet, you know what I mean? Brian: Absolutely. Boy, that's great stuff. You touched briefly your company Feedstories, why don't you tell us more about what that is and how it came about. Bob: So that's interesting, that period between like 2010 and 2013, I was doing a lot of things to kind of find my way again. After you kind of lose an agency, you know, I was just kind of freelancing. I hosted a radio show for a number of years, doing kind of what you and I are doing right now, which is great, got to meet a lot of new people help other people write books. But 2013, I got heavily involved in Facebook. Facebook started to become a media that advertisers could take seriously. I got my first five clients and one of them just we...
Max: Hello. Welcome back to the recruitment hackers podcast. I'm your host Max Armbruster. And today on the show, I'm delighted to welcome Bob Mather, who is a private investigator, as well as the founder and CEO of one of the leading. Background checking company, Pre-Employ, Bob, welcome to the show. Bob: Hey Max, how's it going?Max: Going strong going strong. We in the introduction introduced you as a private investigator. Is this how you stumbled into the world of technology? With long rain coats and you know, stalking people in their private lives. Bob: Wow. You have really just painted quite a picture.No, but close. Even though at one time, I didn't have a rank though. I did have one of those coats. It was probably 20 years ago. I started out my career specializing in embezzlement for retailers. So I would be the guy in the company that they would hire when they were missing $10,000, $20,000, whatever.And then I would bring in a forensic team or a surveillance team and would try to put the pieces of the puzzle together and find out who was embezzling. And then I would also help. Yeah. I would help with the prosecutions. If there were criminal charges, advise them my opinion on what they should do and how they should do it.And then also work with civil restitution recovery. Max: Wow. That's great. This is the great foundation, right? Because you have seen the crimes committed and with your own eyes, so you can really empathize with your customers. Bob: Yeah, well, yeah, I've done thousands of interrogations for the specific embezzlement type cases. I also work with employers when it comes to workplace investigations and always have whether it be discrimination of sexual harassment other types of things, my team and I will come in and put the pieces together and show what really has happened with all of the emotion out of it.But when I first started doing this was in the early nineties and background checks really weren't a thing then, and back in the nineties and you know, there wasn't even an internet. Really, the internet had just started. We had Netscape. Right. We had this world of background checks that was done, when we did do a background check, it was very expensive and it was done by paper.And you might call the local sheriff or even try to get you could walk into a courthouse. You couldn't, there was no technology then. And hiring. If you wanted to hire someone you needed a background check on them. It could take a month. it just was the way it was, had been done forever, but with technology and I was an early adopter in technology, you know we started doing background checks.What happened was I was doing embezzlement investigations. And in one region of the United States, I caught, I investigated, prosecuted, and put a person in jail that was stealing thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars. About a year or so later, another company called me and said, hey, We're losing thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars.And I said, well, okay, I can schedule to be down there. I'll start the investigation, but can you send me your employee list? Let's see who's working there now. I'd like to see. And there was on the employee list they sent, there was the same guy.And I said, well, you know, If they only would have known, you know 400 miles away, he just got out of jail.Max: you know, all the great embezzlement guys that should be working for you.Bob: Yeah, no, no. When you work that type of work, the only embezzlement guys and girls, I know are the unlucky ones or the ones that are not that smart. The good ones I've never met. Max: I was just thinking, yeah maybe there's a limit, right? If you embezzle $500, you never get caught.If you're inbezzlel, half a million, obviously you're the venture you'll get caught pretty soon. Maybe there's a sweet spot there. I don't know. Bob: I think it's like playing blackjack or gambling. If you quit, you might get away with it. But the longer you play, the odds are against you. Max: Okay, great.Well I suppose yeah, millions of dollars are being saved now by the retail sector because of providers such as yourself. Have you been able to quantify that you know, for the industry or how do you put a number on it for your customers at the beginning of those discussions?I suppose now it's not so much. I suspect someone is taking money from you, it's more, standardized, right? Bob: It's more standardized now. It's for safety, is really the big concern right now. Safety of customers, safety of other employees. And as the industry progressed in the early 2000s, I mean, basically it was this.If the company. Whether it was a hospital or a retailer down the street did background checks and you didn't, you only were really sure of one thing. The people that were afraid to get their background checked were not applying at the guy who does the background checks. They were coming to you.And we actually would see that. So when we would get a new client. We would do background checks on all the employees and to do that, they would have to sign a form. Well, we would get people that would just leave. Like they wouldn't come to work. It was over. And then once we looked into it further, we could see that they had, you know, quite a background and then they would go to the next company that didn't do background checks.And, and today it's 90%, 96% of employers in most industries do background checks. Max: I was thinking about that. So for those 4%, that's that don't do, you know, maybe they have a wonderful opportunity, right? Because then they really have to pick up the litter. They can choose between anybody who has a criminal record, they can choose between them and they can take the best ones, the ones that truly want to reform their lives and, you know, start fresh, the ones that quit like a blackjack.Bob: Yeah. Or the ones that had a type of crime that really doesn't have anything to do with the position. So in the world of finance, for example obviously embezzlement would be a very big concern. It would be a killer of any opportunity, but not necessarily let's say a bar fight or where you got drunk driving.Right. So You know, the industry has changed and it's still changing, Now there's not only a demand. When we first started out in the 2000s and 2010s, there wasn't the emphasis on speed as there is now, or talent acquisition leaders now are driven by the need to hire and to hire at scale.You know, we've got a starting class. We need to have X number of people. Hundreds of people are coming in and I need these done now. And for a lot of organizations that can be scary because the person who's ordering and overseeing the selection of what company to use is in such a hurry. And it gets bonuses and it gets financial payments for getting people through the system.They don't necessarily care about the quality like it used to be. It's a strange relationship. Max: It's commoditized and it's looked as as a necessary, a mandatory step, as opposed to something, a selection that you make purposefully, just like you said, like someone, you should also select a vendor very carefully.And of course, nobody is very as educated on the art of selecting. A background checking company as they are on the art of selecting a candidates. And I suppose every vendor will propose the most thorough checks at the most competitive price. And I don't, I've never personally gone through the tendering process of selecting between different vendors within your position.Bob: So many hidden, there's so many hidden secrets in it. You know what most talent acquisition and HR leaders, or procurement leaders don't realize is that we can draft a background check based on what you demand from us. You want it super cheap. Don't worry. We can do it. It's like walking into an ice cream store.And if you said to the person behind the ice cream store, I want an ice cream sundae, but I only want to pay $3. But I need it big and they're like, okay, well, they're probably going to select the ingredients that makes you happy, but it's not really the best. So there's things that background check companies do that the type of tools they use to find where a person has lived.So in the States we use a social security number, and a social security number is put into a database and the database then says, look, Max has lived in seven places around the world in the past seven years. And so we would send investigators or do our, have our technology going to the courthouses. In those seven geographic areas.Well, if your employer is demanding fast, they don't care. It's fast. They want fast. We can choose between one and probably 35 different social security number, locators, or address locators, including some that bring back, it will probably show that you lived in two places. Right. The quality of what a background check company does in the hiring process is actually negotiable.And it's demandable and you can put together service level agreements and demands that look, we need the best. We want to protect our employees. What is the price going to be? Or most people just say, I want a background check. I want an ice cream sundae. It's the same thing. It's a commodity. Right? Give me one. Max: There's some of this background checking that is still being done in house. And then I guess increasingly it has been, I don't know, is it increasingly done? In-house are increasingly being outsourced?Bob: It's going more outsourced now. But you know what it is, what a lot of recruiters do do, it's now starting to be outsourced. Is and most, and a lot of recruiters and a lot of talent acquisition won't admit this probably let's see what next time you get some of your next guest, ask them if they've ever looked at Facebook or a social media profile for one of their applicants. Most of them secretly do. It's not part of the background check.Max: Oh, of course you have to. I mean if you're a hiring manager, that's what you would do. I would imagine. Yeah,Bob: But think about that. Is that part of the background check? Max: No, it's just, you know, curiosity. Yeah. Bob: That's part of the background check. It's part of the interview process that no one knows is going on. In the background check industry it's actually becoming a formal part where with technology, we go through your profile and look for keywords or phrases that may, that gives it brings back a score that says this person may not meet your profile. Based on 17 times using this word, which is deemed offensive to most people.Right. Now there's a big argument if that's right or wrong, but that's really what's that, like you said, of course it's happening now. It's just now coming forward and becoming more I don't know, just more efficient.Max: Yeah. It's unfortunate that it's seen through the prism of basically the background check as a veto power to say no to a particular person, if they use a particular type of language as opposed to being a sourcing engine where you would match the tone of the people in your company with the tone of the people outside your company and find some commonalities and culture and attitudes. Bob: That's where it's going. I think I have one of my divisions, my background check it's called it's pretty simple. It's my background check. Because if you think about it, Max, what we do in the world is crazy.Talent acquisition goes out there and we pay a ton of money to put ads. To put out things saying, please come to work for us. So you have an ad that says, hey, I'm looking for someone like Bob, and I see your ad. And I'm like, hey, I might like working for you Max. And we start to do this relationship dance.You say, hey, here's my benefits. Here's what I'll pay. Here's the working environment. I say, look, here's my resume. Here's what I've done. I say, Max, I really like what I see. And you say, hey Bob, I really like what I see. We should form a business relationship and we should spend 40 hours a week together for a common goal.Let's do this. I'd be like, all right, let's do this. And then you say, Hey, stop. I want you to go pee in a cup so I can search your urine for drugs. And I need your name, your date of birth and your social security number. So I can search your background. It's a crazy world. It's like, I'll be like, Ooh, max, wait a minute.Max: I just thought we were friends.Bob: Yeah. I was excited. Think what's happening and what we're doing with my background check. And I think over the next five or six years, you're going to see a flip in. What we're going to do is lead the charge to make a background check mine. And it's part of my resume.I'll show you a copy of my degree. I'll give you the name of my employers and I'll show you my background check. You can verify it, but let's get this done at the beginning. This is who I am. And you know, I had a DUI or I got in a bar fight, but this is who I am. You want to talk about it now?Max: Yeah, the first baby step was let's move our resumes to LinkedIn, which everybody did 20 years ago.Still, you know, 90% of the welders is not on LinkedIn, but of course, for me, it's more valuable to look at a profile, which is publicly available with, you know, references where, you know, I mean, I'm sure you can lie on LinkedIn, but it seems like you would lie a little bit more on the resume, right?Just you have a little bit more artistic expression? I like freedom.Bob: I can tell you stories, Max. Trust me. Max: Okay. We'll get there. They're bobs. But the point is, yeah, the baby step is more validated content through third parties. And of course rather than making it awkward for you as an employer to ask for my urine sample, if you need to have access to it, why would I refuse it.I mean, I suppose some people would, by the way, if anybody feels they've got something to add to my company at Talkpush, but they don't want to take a urine test. They're welcome to join Talkpush, we don't check for that.Bob: What about background checks, max? Do you do. Max: We do not.But I'm not so proud of that. I suppose background checks do have a place even for a tech startup. Bob: Yeah. you have to go with what, how you feel, what's right for your company. Max: I mean in our case, it's you know, we try to mimic what you just described, where it's a transactional approach to 40 hours a week and just , build trust on that and on outputs rather than background. But yeah. You seem like, I do think that there's some pushback. I mean, it is the world's plugging into not red state blue state, but you know, privacy, non privacy maniacs whereas some people will just, even though they have nothing to hide, they just refuse on principle to take part in some of these investigations?Bob: We don't see a lot of people who refuse to take part in investigations, but in the States we see a lot of legislation that is being pushed forward to do things like delete somebody's criminal record, once they're done and to reduce access for an employer.But look if you've applied for a job, you probably need the job, and there's a compelling reason for you to comply with what the new employer is going to say. But you know, background checks to me, background checks should be part of the discussion, not a speed bump to recruiting. not something where you say, stop, I need to go dig into your background.And then you come back after we've spent all that time getting to know each other. Now I come back and say, oh, sorry that you know, this probably isn't going to be a fit because of this or that. It should be at the beginning of the process. You know, you wouldn't, interview me if I didn't put in an application.Right. If I just, if I walked up and said, hey, I'd like here, CFO job. You're like, all right, can I see something like, ah, no. No, we'll talk about it later. Let's why don't you waste your time and interview me? And then later I'll tell you about my experience, once we get into it. Max: So , you're an advocate of putting as much of that at the front of the funnel.Bob: I think somebody, yeah I think it's my background. I think it's my background check. I own it. And I should share it with who I want when I want it to do it. And by the way, that's probably going to save you. It's going to save businesses about 9 billion a year in background checks, and it's going to speed up hiring Max: that's the size of the industry.Bob: Yeah, roughly it goes back and forth. No one knows for sure. Max: Yeah, it's big. We know it's big. It's probably bigger than the recruitment software industry.Bob: And that's big too though, but yeah, in a different way. Yeah. A different SAS model. Max: Yeah. Great. Well let's go into the horror stories.Bob: What do you want to know that I can talk about. Max: Well, we don't have to give names, but I, what do I want to know? I don't know what I want to know. What's gonna keep me up at night?No, normally I ask the guests on the show to talk about a hiring mistake that they made. And it has nothing to, I mean, the stuff that's come out has generally not been tied back to background checking, but rather with, I mean, indirectly with, I didn't really check their qualification or I picked a friend instead of picking somebody who is right for the job, things like that. And well, I'm sure as you're a decade, plus, as an entrepreneur, you've made hiring mistakes too.Bob: I have, I've definitely made hiring mistakes. My biggest hiring mistakes have been salespeople that have sold me that they can sell and they can't. What happened? You sold me. I'm like, yeah, you are easy. If I go, well, I can, you at least call Max wants and see if he wants to do business?I've heard he doesn't do background checks. Max: That's universal. We've all made those hiring mistakes. Bob: What I see from my clients is first of all, 99% of the people in the world are great people, you know, and their background and a background check mistake they've made in the past, really has nothing to do with who they are now or who they're going to be.But there also are the career criminals and the really, really, really bad people. If you do a Google search right now, you'll see a Florida babysitter that was on several nanny websites, who was a child molester and was a teacher, another one that was a teacher for two year olds. And I think maybe five-year-olds. These are people that are predators, that have to go to a place that doesn't do a background check. The end. You can't, if you are a predator and in this case, a sexual predator, you can't have access to children for a place that does a background check. If you are a career criminal from embezzlement, you can't get access to cash, unless it's a place that doesn't do background checks.If you are a prescription drug stealer, we see this actually a lot. They'll find a place where they have access to elderly for home care purposes, and that they will do horrible things to elderly people besides stealing their prescriptions or part of their prescriptions. Max: Of course, all of this makes sense, but there's also a sense of futility about it because you know that 80- 90% of crimes and theft and you know, misdemeanors and all those actions committed are unrecorded. And that there's no trace left behind. Bob: Correct. Right. Yeah.Max: I mean, that's my estimate.Bob: Great. Thanks Max, now I'm depressed.No, you know, but for business reasons, there's also that if you don't do it, you're going to have tremendous lawsuits when something bad does happen that you could have prevened. Yeah. So there's not only that, you know, a lot of business, people don't necessarily care if they sleep good at night, they don't care.It's what's the bottom line and you can save a lot of money if you don't do background checks, or if you do cheap background checks, but the litigation that can come and the damage to your reputation and your company's reputation can be significant. Max: Well, of course, 9 billion in revenue didn't come out of nowhere. Obviously people can see the ROI. Bob: Yeah, and it's also can be used as a preventative. So, like I said, the bad people move on and you know, you can sleep a little better at night. Max: Okay. So. It doesn't make you a bad person to use these background checks. It just makes sure that you don't end up with the leftovers, the people who self-select out of those companies, that'll be more vigilant.So look at what your peers do and at least try to align, unless you have made a conscious decision to attract a certain breed of dangerous characters. Is the message from Bob. And where can people get a hold of you and connect with the Pre-employ.com? Well, you can find me on LinkedIn or my profile is accurate.And it's Bob, M a T H E R. Or you can get a hold of me at any of my companies, pre employe.com or my backgroundcheck.com. So you can also find me on Twitter at @BobMather. Max: And then me as an individual I can create my background check Bob: Yeah. Max: Oh, great. So I can decide how much I want to share and decide my medical history or this history or that's and the other.Bob: Yeah, well we don't delve into medical history, but we do into you know, the background check, the verification part.Have you ever applied for a job that you had a background check done? Max: I don't know. Bob: It's an unnerving process. I'm telling you. It's unnerving. It's weird. It's like this secret investigation and people sit there and go, what are they going to find? Are they going to call my mom?Like, what if they call my mom? Oh my God. My mom knows stuff that I did, like calm down. Because we deal with applicants who call us and they're like, what are you? You know, I did this in high school. You 15 years ago, like, no, we're not going to report anything like that.Yeah, it's a scary process for applicants. Max: So with my background check is it possible for an employer to direct, a candidate to my background check and say, just share with us what you're comfortable with sharing with us. We'll take care of the rest. Bob: Yeah, it is.Max: It's more of an opt-in processBob: Depending on what country you're in. What state you're in in the States, what jurisdiction, if it's legal or not. To require that as an applicant, but basically yes. And that's my end goal. My end goal in five or six years, as the majority of people will want to know what's in their background check and really want to make sure it's accurate, you know, to make sure that somebody didn't put the wrong criminal record when my identity was stolen three years ago.What if someone did a crime with that name? You know, we find people, we have helped people all the time that have arrest records. That they said that's not me. Max: That it takes forever to get that wiped off. Right. Bob: You can't, it's almost impossible because there is a criminal record with your name, your date of birth, your driver's license. They stole your identity. You stopped your credit cards. That was smart. Good job. But then they walked around with a whole new identity and can do almost what they want. It's crazy. Max: Well, if that doesn't keep you up at night.All right. Thanks a lot, Bob. Thanks for scaring the bejesus out of us. No, thank you for setting up a nice direction for the industry where people can have control over their identity and all the best to Pre-employ.com.Bob: Thanks Max. It's great meeting you and I hope to meet many of your listeners.Max: That was Bob Mather from Pre-Employ, reminding us that a background screening is not strictly about who you want to employ proactively, but it's also a way to define who you are as an employer with regards to your competitive landscape. If ever yone of your competitors is screening for a particular type of criminal record, but you're aren't, you're most likely to end up with a talent pool filled with criminals. So look at your competitors and calibrate yourself accordingly. Hope you enjoyed the conversation with Bob and that you'll be back for more. Remember to subscribe to the Recruitment Hackers podcast.
Bob: Do you personally feel disease and sickness? Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: Is this a result of your past karma? Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: So one in this material world never escapes his karma completely? Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, he escapes. No more karma for a devotee. No more karmic reaction. Bob: But you must be the best devotee. Śrīla Prabhupāda: Hm-m... No, I don't consider myself the best devotee. I am the lowest. Bob: No! Śrīla Prabhupāda: You are the best devotee. Bob: [Laughs.] Oh, no, no! But, see, you say—what you say... always seems right. Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: Then you must be the best devotee. Śrīla Prabhupāda: The thing is that even the best devotee, when he preaches, comes to the second-class platform of a devotee. Bob: What would the best devotee be doing? Śrīla Prabhupāda: The best devotee does not preach. Bob: What does he do? Śrīla Prabhupāda: He sees that there is no need of preaching. For him, everyone is a devotee. [Bob laughs heartily] Yes, he sees no more nondevotees—all devotees. He is called an uttama-adhikārī. But while I am preaching, how can I say I am the best devotee? Just like Rādhārāṇī—She does not see anyone as a nondevotee. Therefore we try to approach Rādhārāṇī. Bob: Who is this? Śrīla Prabhupāda: Rādhārāṇī, Kṛṣṇa's consort. Bob: Ah. Śrīla Prabhupāda: If anyone approaches Rādhārāṇī, She recommends to Kṛṣṇa, “Here is the best devotee. He is better than Me,” and Kṛṣṇa cannot refuse him. That is the best devotee. But it is not to be imitated: “I have become the best devotee.” īśvare tad-adhīneṣu bāliśeṣu dviṣatsu ca prema-maitrī-kṛpopekṣā yaḥ karoti sa madhyamaḥ (Bhāg. 11.2.46) A second-class devotee has the vision that some are envious of God, but this is not the vision of the best devotee. The best devotee sees, “Nobody is envious of God. Everyone is better than me.” Just like Caitanya-caritāmṛta's author, Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja. He says, “I am lower than the worm in the stool.” Bob: Who is saying this? Śrīla Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja, the author of Caitanya-caritāmṛta: purīṣera kīṭa haite muñi se laghiṣṭha. He is not making a show. He is feeling like that. “I am the lowest. Everyone is best, but I am the lowest. Everyone is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. I am not engaged.” Caitanya Mahāprabhu said “Oh, I have not a pinch of devotion to Kṛṣṇa. I cry to make a show. If I had been a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, I would have died long ago. But I am living. That is the proof that I do not love Kṛṣṇa.” That is the vision of the best devotee. He is so much absorbed in Kṛṣṇa's love that he says, “Everything is going on, but I am the lowest. Therefore I cannot see God.” That is the best devotee | Read along with me: www.biglink.to/perfect_questions_perfect_answers
FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Creating A More Romantic Marriage Day 3 off 8 Guest: Barbara Rainey From the Series: A Woman's View of Romance________________________________________________________________Bob: This is FamilyLife Today with your host, the executive director of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey. I'm Bob Lepine. Today on the broadcast Barbara Rainey joins us to talk about what happens when a man loves a woman. Stay with us for FamilyLife Today. (Music: "When A Man Loves A Woman") And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the broadcast, and if you were not here with us yesterday, you're in big trouble is what you are – if you're a man, particularly. Dennis: That's right. Bob: I took notes on yesterday's broadcast, and I've got my pencil ready today, because we're learning how a woman views romance. Dennis: We're learning how a woman thinks. Bob: That's right. And women think differently – that's not wrong – they think differently than men, don't they? Dennis: They do, and, well, we've got someone in the studio who is definitely a woman. She is a great woman, she is my wife, and it's really fun to have Barbara back with us on the broadcast again today. Bob: Yeah, Barbara, welcome back to the broadcast. Barbara: Thanks, glad to be here. Bob: You know, yesterday – and I've been thinkin' about this all night. I went home and just kinda mulled on this. It's a little frustrating to know that once I have an idea of how my wife views romance, she's going to change the rules on me – that was one of the lessons from yesterday's broadcast – and to be aware that romance is going to get progressively harder as we continue in marriage. It was easy in courtship, but it gets progressively harder as we're married. Is that right? Dennis: Absolutely. Bob: Well, that's lousy. Dennis: Well, you think about – what's God up to here? He is trying to rid us of selfishness and, if we could, we would kick it in neutral and just coast all the way in to year 50 of the marriage – we wouldn't have to work at it. It would just be like jumpin' off the edge of a cliff. We would romantically fall into each other's arms and hopelessly under the control of romance, like gravity, and not have to really work at knowing and loving and caring for and meeting the needs of the other person. And I think that's why God created marriage – He created it to be redemptive. He wants me to give up my life for my wife. Barbara: Exactly. Dennis: And that's why romance becomes really elusive in a marriage where a man is threatening to leave or a man is sending all kinds of signals that he's not committed, and he's putting fear in the marriage, not casting it out. 1 John, chapter 4, talks about "perfect love casting out all fear," and that's a man's assignment, and a lot of men want their wives to fall in a puddle at their feet and romantic love in a swoon, but they're not willing to give up their hobbies, their interests, their selfish desires for their wives. Now, how do I know that? Because I'm a man, and because I've done that. Barbara: See, when I was thinkin', when you talked about it being redemptive, I was thinking that as you were saying that, and that, ultimately, is what is going to draw a wife to her husband, because when she sees him loving her unconditionally, seeking to understand her and know her and be involved in her life and help her and all of those things, then she is going to respond to him, and as she sees him giving up himself and denying himself and getting rid of his bad habits or putting away his hobbies or whatever for her, those kinds of things are redemptive, and so I think that, in the long haul of things, as we see marriage as being a redemptive relationship, that is the hope of responding to one another. That is the hope of having romance – is growing together in Christ, denying yourselves for each other, and especially for a husband as the head of the home and the head of his wife, as he will deny himself for her, as he will love her, as he will sacrifice for her, if he will seek to understand her – why she is the way she is and accept her for that and not condemn her for it and not seek to understand her so he can get her to change so he can be happy with her, but all in pursuit of loving her, then she will respond to that ultimately. Again, it has to be for the purpose, though, that God intended, and that is to love her as Christ loved the church. Dennis: With no response in return. Barbara: That's right – with no strings attached. In other words, he can't say, "I'm going to do this, and then she's going to respond, and then I'll get what I want," because that defeats the purpose of sacrificial love, because then it's not self-sacrificing. Dennis: And that's the difficulty for a man, because a man usually sets goals, and he is after something, and with romance it may be the sexual dimension of the marriage relationship that he is in pursuit of his wife on, and that's why, as you approach this subject of romance and learning how to speak it as a man to your wife, you've got to understand that you deny your agenda and let the goal be solely that she would feel love; that she would know she is valued, cared for, and cherished, and that she is seeing you nourish her, just as Ephesians 5 talks about. Bob: But here's the rub in that – because a man is thinking to himself – "The way I'll know that, the way I'll know that she's been loved is she'll respond." Dennis: Right. Bob: So if she's not responding, then the message is – Dennis: "I haven't done a good job loving her." Bob: I haven't done a good job – Dennis: – and we've had that conversation. Barbara: You've said that to me many times. Dennis: I have. Barbara: "I must not be loving you right," and it's not just because I'm not responding sexually or in a particular way, but you're sensing from me a lack of response toward you, and it's because of areas in my life that you didn't understand or that you didn't know about me or that I was unable to trust at a particular phase, and so we've talked those things through. And I think good, solid, marriage relationships need to take the risk of talking those things through, and I needed to hear you say that, and you needed to hear back from me why I was not feeling loved, why I was not feeling like I could respond, and those kinds of conversations are not easy to have. I mean, they have been difficult conversations that we've had through the years, but because of our commitment to making this thing work is to making it be all that God intended it to be, we have had some of those really tough conversations, and they've not been fun but, in the long run, as we've had them and had them again, they have ultimately been productive in bringing understanding to each of us, but particularly to Dennis in understanding me and in better how to love me. Dennis: You know, as you were talking, there were really two things that I was thinking about – number one, the process that we have been through of 22 years of dialog, and I mean, at points, fierce dialog, I mean heated dialog, and the second thing is what we're talking about here has come out of something that is most fundamental, and that is a commitment, a bedrock, granite-solid that is immovable. Barbara: That's right. Dennis: No escape clauses, no escape hatches, no way out. Barbara: And no threats. Dennis: And no threats – never a threat. This freedom of discussion has come about as a result of two people who are committed – committed, first of all, to Jesus Christ, because without the fear of the Lord and a commitment to Him and setting ourselves apart unto Him first, deciding He will be our Lord and Savior of our lives, our Master, our Redeemer. He sets the agenda. It is Him that must be obeyed above all else. That settles it. But there have been some evenings that lasted long into the night and some mornings that came early as a result of the dialog. When we got up in the morning, and we looked at each other, there was no thought of going anywhere. It was two people deeply committed to Christ, and that commitment was mirrored in our commitment to one another. Bob: Yeah, those are the late nights or the early mornings, I'll look at Mary Ann, and I'll say, "You are not my enemy," and she'll say, "You are not my enemy," and we'll keep going, we'll keep after it. Dennis: And I think a lot of young couples that are listening to our broadcast today and who go through life – they think they're entering into real war at these points and, yeah, it's rugged. You're climbing some craggy cliffs at this point, but you know what? That's a part of a relationship. I mean, if it was easy and there were no rocky points, I guess I would have to say, "Hm, I think I may fear for you a little bit. Have you not had anything hard to work through?" I mean, I really fear for the couple who say they haven't ever argued, who haven't really differed, who haven't really had to hammer some of these misunderstandings out, because it's in those discussions that you realize how different you are from one another, and what a gift God has given you in your spouse. Bob: I can imagine that there are women who listen to this discussion and they're going, "Yes, somebody understands what it's like to be a woman. Somebody understands what women want romantically in marriage," and men listen to it, and they go, "This is much harder work than I ever thought it would be." Dennis: That's right. Barbara: That's right. Dennis: You go back, and you look at the first year of marriage, and the first year of marriage is like falling off that cliff. We just kind of fall into each other's arms, and you can't stay away from each other, and you fall helplessly under the control of gravity – romance – and you get married and, all of a sudden, you realize it's not as easy to create that over and over and over again, and then you have children, and you find out it's very difficult, and then you've got health problems and there's job issues and then there are emotional issues and there are extended-family issues, and life becomes cluttered and crowded – Barbara: – and complicated – Dennis: That's right – where the Lord Himself is at work in your life whittling away and, at that point, it's where the commitment has to kick in, and two people must say to one another – "I love you, I'm committed, we're goin' for it," because, in the end, they are going to have a real relationship with a real person who knows them. And I've said this to Barbara, even in the middle of some of our heated discussions over the past 22 years – I would rather have the discussion and have the understanding in one another's lives than to go through life denying that I'm disappointed or denying that we have a disagreement or denying that I've got feelings and, as a man, stuff it and have her think she's winning, and you've got to get some of those things out. But that is a risky feeling because that means the other person has to hear this and must hear it without feeling threatened or like they are being attacked or like the commitment is falling into question. And that's a real challenge – to let somebody know that you're upset in the middle of the moment but still let them know, "You know what? I'm not goin' anywhere. I love you, I'm committed to you, but we've got to talk this thing out," and this is where I'd give the man's side of things toward a woman, as a man has tried to love his wife, and he's missed it, and a woman needs to understand that at those points he may be feeling like a failure as a man. He may have done the best he knows how to do, and he's got to be coached, and the time to coach him is not right after he fails because at that point he's probably feeling like a failure already, anyway. But write him a letter, somehow communicate to him, but let him know how can he win you and then realize you're going to probably have to re-write that letter again in two or three years after he's – moves it to an A+B=C. Barbara: Well, and let him know that you appreciate him trying – I mean, even that is worth a lot, because I think a woman who understands that her husband is trying to love her and is trying to understand her, she needs to let him know that she appreciates that and that she values that. Bob: Do you love Dennis more today than you did 22 years ago? Barbara: Oh, gosh, yes. Dennis: I wouldn't go back to that first year of marriage – Bob: Well, now, wait – with that said, how come it doesn't feel like it? I mean, back 22 years ago, when all of the feelings were there, was gravity fallin' off a cliff – how come if you loved him so much more 22 years later it doesn't feel like it did then? Barbara: Well, I think because I know him more, and I know what his love means. I mean, I know what it's cost him. I mean, it's cost him a lot to love me, and he has denied himself a lot. He has given a lot, he's done a lot, he's prayed a lot, he's tried a lot, he's failed a lot, and I know that it's not cheap. Bob: Do you think there will come a time in the future when it will feel more like it did at the beginning? Barbara: I suppose that there's potential for that, just because circumstantially, as the kids are gone and there are less pressures with children and the things that right now are making life stressful for me, and we have more opportunity to spend one-on-one time together, I suppose that there's a potential for that, but I – you know – Bob: – do you think it will? Do you think as the years go on, some of that early romantic feeling will re-emerge? Dennis: I think that we have probably gone through one of the toughest periods, or seasons, of our marriage. We had six kids in 10 years. I think those years are among the most challenging. Now we've just gone through another season where we had four teenagers at one time. That's another season incredibly challenging – maybe even moreso than the six kids in 10 years, because there were some health issues occurring in that period, as well, that were making that especially challenging, too. But I think, little by little, as the kids leave, and as Barbara's attention can come back again – not solely to me, because her life has never revolved totally around me – but more towards me, I think there will be more room for that to happen, because there will be more time for just the two of us in our relationship and being together. Because we can't go together a lot of times right now on a plane because she needs to stay here and be a part of the PTA or ministry outreach that the kids are having – or be there just to take care of the kids. Bob: And it's the couples who, during the time when the kids are growing, who kind of move everything to the back shelf or let the flame die out, who reach that later time, and there's nothin' there. Dennis: Yeah, and that's why this series on romance is so important – I don't think the Christian community is talking enough about romance. I mean, it is important to a marriage. Now, we've talked about how difficult it is to achieve, and it's elusive, and it's hard, and it's difficult, and you can't be guaranteed of it. Now make it important. Now it almost sounds like a crazy maker, but I think God wants us to have fire in our friendship with our spouse, and I think romance is that fire that flows out of that commitment and that friendship, and I think we've got to pursue one another because I think God put it within us both to long for it, to want it. And in the process of longing for that, for a man, I think it provides the motivation to pursue his wife. I think God gave it to him to do that so that he would pursue her. Otherwise, if a man didn't feel that, what would there be to draw the man toward his wife? Toward giving up his agenda for her and his rights? I would have to say I don't know what the motivation would be, other than just some super-spiritual definition. Barbara: Yeah, just obey the command. Dennis: And that just sounds bland. Who wants to experience that? Barbara and I have anything other than a boring marriage. Is there a lot of romance in our relationship? Yes. But is it the kind that Hollywood depicts on the screen? She's shaking her head no. No, it's not. It's not. It is much deeper than that. I mean, that's shallow. Barbara: The relationship and the commitment and the knowing one another and growing closer and closer together – that's what defines the romance, and that's what it blossoms out of – is that relationship. Bob: Well, have a great weekend. Be back with us on Monday because Barbara's going to join us again, and we're going through Dennis Rainey's Top 10 list of romantic ideas, right – the Top 10 most romantic ideas in America. Dennis: That's right. Are we going to give any of 'em today just to tease 'em? Bob: No, no, no – they've got to tune in Monday. This is information that you got from research that we did – Dennis: – that's right. We surveyed over 800 couples. So this is the best of the best, Bob. Bob: Well, doing my best Casey Kasem impression – "we won't quit 'til we get all the way to Number 1." That's Casey Kasem. Come on, you remember American Top 40, don't you? Dennis: Oh, yeah. Bob: Yeah, that's on Monday's edition of FamilyLife Today. Join us for that. Our engineer is Mark Whitlock, our host Dennis Rainey – Dennis: Do you have these out-of-body experiences often? Bob: I'm Casey Kasem, we'll see you Monday on FamilyLife Today. (Music: "When A Man Loves A Woman") FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. __________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. 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FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Creating A More Romantic Marriage Day 2 of 8 Guest: Barbara Rainey From the Series: Woman's View of Romance________________________________________________________________Bob: This is FamilyLife Today. Your host is the executive director of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey. I'm Bob Lepine, and today we'll learn from Barbara Rainey just how a woman does view romance on FamilyLife Today. (Music: "How To Handle A Woman") And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the broadcast. Dennis: You know, Bob, because of who we have in the studio today, I've decided I'm just going to kind of push back from the microphone and get my notepad out and take notes. Bob: Is that right? Dennis: That's right. I really feel, in due respect for my wife, she's an authority on the subject she's about to speak on and, in fact, you know what I'd like to do? You can ask the questions – because of the nature of what we're going to talk about, it's pretty delicate, and for me to ask my wife these questions, I mean, this could get a little interesting. So – Bob: – well, I'm lookin' forward to this and, Barbara, by the way, welcome back to the broadcast. It's great to have you on the program. Barbara: You're welcome, it's good to be here. Bob: And, Dennis, I'm going to get right to it, because we're going to be talking over the next couple of days about how a wife views romance, and I think the thing that husbands want to know, the thing that kind of puzzles us in this whole deal is what is it that we can do that causes our wives to go, "Ahhhh." You know, just kind of look at us and melt. I mean, does that happen with a woman? Barbara: Well, I think it does, but I don't think it's necessarily a particular situation, because the things that are romantic to me aren't necessarily a situation or an act or a thing or a gift – all of those things communicate romance – but the particular situation isn't necessarily going to produce what you're talkin' about, which is what we've talked about a lot. You know what I think it is, I think it is the relationship that she has with her husband, and I have been reminded again, as I've been interacting with my family, and I have seen where I have come from and how desperately dysfunctional it was, and I'm thinking, "I am married to a man who has absolutely been a savior to me because of the love and acceptance and all that kind of stuff, and I have been attracted to him because I'm realizing what he's done for me relationally. So it's not like he thought, "I want to romance my wife, so I'm going to go buy her flowers, and so A+B=C, and this is the reaction and the response I'm going to get," although I think that's very romantic, and I love it when he does those kinds of things, because that communicates sacrifice, it communicates he cares about me, he's willing to go out of his way, he's willing to spend money that, you know, we may or may not have in the budget for that – those are all things that are very meaningful, but it may not necessarily produce the desired response. In other words, if he's doing it to produce the response, he is very often going to be disappointed. That's why I go back to the relationship – to me, it's the relationship that is ultimately going to fuel the romance. And so when you ask what I thought of, my thought was – was the day that we spent together in September, and he took a whole day off work just to spend it with me to do what I wanted to do. We worked in the yard, and we got in the car in the afternoon, we drove for four or five hours and just kinda took off, and we stopped when we wanted to, and we did what we wanted to. I mean, it was like, in a sense, being on a honeymoon or being in those early days of marriage when we didn't have any responsibilities, and that was more fun, but it was romantic in the sense that it was just the two of us, and we could do what we wanted, and we focused on each other, and we didn't have the demands and the – I mean – we had to come back to it, but, you know – just for however many hours it was, it was really a treat to have him all to myself and to have him say, "I will do whatever you want to do," and we talked all day long. It was wonderful. It wasn't romantic in the typical sense of sweep her off her feet, carry her to the castle, and they lived happily ever after. Bob: You know, as you said, the A+B+C, I thought – men want it to be algebra. Barbara: That's right. Dennis: They do, and therein lies the frustration as well as the intrigue. Bob: And women don't want it to be algebra. It's gotta be – Dennis: – no, they don't want a book. Barbara: But they don't want to be figured out. See, I don't think women want to be figured out, because if they feel like they're figured out, then they feel like they're controlled and they're had, and they don't want to be figured out. I think they want him to love her and be willing to pursue her and to continue to know who she is, because she's not that simple. I think women don't want to feel like they're that easy to figure out and, "Oh, he's got me pegged," and A+B+=C, and it's going to always work that way. I think she wants to be more complex and more intriguing and more – Dennis: – of a challenge. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: Because if the man goes A+B=C, and he knows that's the way it works, then she knows – Barbara: – that he'll do A+B=C every time, and that gets boring, and I think she would also begin to fear that she'd be taken advantage of and, see, women don't want to be taken advantage of, and I don't mean taken advantage of sexually. I mean to be taken advantage of in any way – just assuming on the relationship and therefore there's no more motivation to continue to pursue, there's no more motivation – because if you've got it figure out, then why work at it? Bob: So if a man says to himself, "I would like" – he's thinking, it's, you know, here it is Thursday, "I'd like a week from Friday to be a romantic evening together for me and my wife." What can I do to foster that? How can I create a romantic evening, something that will speak romance to her? You're saying "Good luck, buster." Barbara: No, I don't think it's that hopeless. I think that a man can make some plans. I think he can make dinner reservations. I think he can bring her flowers. I think he can do some things that are creative that will communicate to her that she's special, she's unique – "I love you, I'm willing to sacrifice for you." But he needs to do it without the expectation of whatever it is his purpose is, because – see, the verse that I go back to all the time, as we've had these talks through the years – is I go back to the verse that says, "Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church." And Christ gave himself up for the church. He denied Himself, and I think when a woman sees that her husband is denying himself for her, she responds to that, just as the church then responds to Christ, and I think she sees that sacrifice, and she understands that it's because of love. But when a woman sees a husband doing that for what appears to her to be his own personal need, then she feels somewhat manipulated or somewhat controlled or less valued. Dennis: Used. Barbara: Used – I mean, I think it complicates things, because I think that her ultimate need is to be loved as Christ loved the church and be loved unconditionally, and I think when she feels that, then she understands that commitment and that trust, then she can respond to her husband as he wants her to and as he needs her to, but it's just not as easy as bring home flowers and light the candles and have a dinner and A+B=C. Bob: But I'm not even talking about her responding to his need necessarily. I'm saying – let's say a husband with the purest of motives says, "I want you to feel special next Friday night, so I'm going to get the sitter, I'm going to take you out to dinner," and he's out with her, and it's just not happening for her – for whatever reason, she doesn't feel special, she doesn't feel warm toward him. Maybe it's been a bad week. Well, the husband is sittin' there goin', "This was a waste of time and money, because she doesn't feel special. What do I do now? I tried the babysitter and the dinner thing, and that doesn't work." Barbara: Well, it may not work because of the circumstances but, see, he needs to understand his role is to continue to pursue his wife, and he may need to say to her, "I'm sorry this didn't work out. I just want you to know I love you, anyway, and this may not have been good timing on my part" or whatever, but I think that part of the challenge for a husband is to understand his wife and understand what communicates love to her and figure that out and then do that. Dennis: And if what communicates love to her is surprise, then that may be what you've got to heighten in that situation. I mean, just setting down and spending some time – having fun over nothing of any significance but just spending time together and maybe talking as we play a game. Barbara: Well, the reason that is helpful for us is because we sort of exit the world of reality in a sense and so often it's the pressures of real life and all the responsibility that we feel, especially as parents, it's such an ongoing thing, and I think that suppresses a relationship. It suppresses romance, it suppresses interest in one another in doing something that is frivolous. And I think "frivolous" is a good word that needs to be involved in the discussion of romance, because it's often the frivolous things, which we think of, naturally, as flowers and candy and dinners, but it could be something like taking an hour in the evening, when you really need to be doing the laundry, or you really need to be doing something else, and the two of you sit down and play a game of spades or something. So I don't think it has to be expensive, it doesn't have to be planned out necessarily. It can be impulsive. Dennis: It's those things that we did when we dated, and a lot of things we did when we dated were dumb things. Barbara: Well, and they didn't cost much because most of us didn't have money when we dated – so a lot of times we did things like picnics. You and I did that a lot. Dennis: And I think what happens when you get married is you fall into a rut, and you stop pursuing your spouse – men do – they think they've got her all figured out, and that insults the wife when she begins to feel like it is A+B=C, and then what he's gotta do is, he's got to pull back and go, "Now, wait a second, how can I court my wife?" And even I find it's interesting, when Bob asked you what's the most romantic thing I've done recently in our marriage that you would pick a day where there was no – what I would call "enchanted moment" – of carrying her off to the castle. It was a day of relationship and a time of friendship – Barbara: – and it was focused on me and what I enjoy, and that might not be what you would enjoy, and that's what made it – that's what made it special, because that might not have been what you would have picked, but that communicated to me that you were willing to deny yourself and to do whatever I wanted, and that speaks volumes. Dennis: What would you say to the husband who doesn't understand his wife? He's not a good student. He perhaps has heard 1 Peter 3:7 – "Husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way," and yet, let's say, he's been married six to 10 years, and he still hasn't gotten it. Barbara: Well, I think it's okay. I really think that it is a long, lifetime process, and I – Dennis: – I'm glad you said that, because I haven't gotten it in (inaudible) – [crosstalk] Barbara: – well, I just think – you know, I just think that you and I, in our marriage, have continued to discover things about each other, and we've been married over 20 years now, and I feel that way, and I know you have felt that way, and I think it's just a lifetime process that God has us on of getting to know each other and, as we're changing, we're going to find out new things about each other. So I would just encourage husbands to not give up and not lose heart and instead be encouraged by the challenge, because you wouldn't want to marry somebody, really, if it came right down to it, if you could figure her out that quickly. I mean, I would think that a man would want – that that would be a challenge to him, to his manhood, to think, "You know, there's a lot about this woman that I don't know, and I've got years ahead to figure it out and, God, help me do this." Bob: Well, and you've hit on a big thing, because it is a challenge to his manhood, and if he's going for long periods of time feeling like, "I'm not winning at this," he's feeling like less of a man if his wife is not responding to anything that he is doing to try to spark romance and, again, we're not just talking about how he views romance, but he's just trying to make her feel warm and appreciated and affectionate. Barbara: Mm-hm. Bob: And he doesn't seem to be getting it, and he goes, "This is a challenge to my manhood. What's wrong with me?" Barbara: I think part of it is understanding that a woman is not going to be easy to understand, and I think he needs to pursue her and say, "What can I do to let you know that I love you? What communicates love to you?" And that's a question that Dennis has asked me lots of times and sometimes I don't even want to talk about it, which isn't very nice, I suppose, but I think that's a good question for husbands to ask their wives -- what communicates love to you? What is it? And she may not have an answer right off the top of her head. She probably hasn't had time to think about it, but that communicates that he is interested in meeting her where she is with her needs, and I think that will begin to open up some dialog, it will begin to communicate to her that he really cares about her, and he's interested in her, and that's how you gain understanding – is by talking and asking and pursuing and spending time together, and it isn't going to come real easy. It's going to take some time, though. Dennis: And there's another side to that question, too, that you've taught me – because sometimes what communicates love to you, you may not feel loved as a result of what I've done, and that's a tremendous puzzle to us, as men. Bob: I'm not following – what are you talking about? Dennis: Well, I think, as men, we find out what communicates love to our wives as we create this checklist again – A+B=C. Barbara: Again – yeah, right. Dennis: And we're doing the things where she should feel loved, and the reason she's not feeling loved is because she senses we're pushin' the buttons, and our heart's not in it. Am I saying that right, honey? Barbara: Well, I think that's right. I think anytime she feels like she's been figured out, you've had it. That sounds awful, it really does. Bob: But it's true, isn't it? Barbara: Well, I really do think it's true, I really do, and it's not that she doesn't want those things done again. It's not that you bring her flowers two or three times, and she loves it, and then, all of a sudden, she feels like she's been pegged, and she doesn't ever want be gettin' it for the rest of her life, but I think that there needs to be variety, there needs to be creativity. She needs to feel like he's thinking about her in different ways at different times and not just the same old prescribed pattern. Bob: It sounds like there is an inherent distrust of men by women that you're always suspicious of our motives. Barbara: Well, it may be, I don't know. Bob: Well, maybe – Dennis: – I think there is. Barbara: Well, I don't know that you can say that about all women. That's why I said there may be. I think that, for sure, there is an inherent distrust in very many women today. There have been too many abuses, whether it's happened to a particular woman or she's just heard about it. There have just been too many stories, too many actual things that have happened for women not to be just a little bit skeptical. Now, I don't want to say that's true across the board, and I think there's varying degrees of mistrust, but I do think that is an element in many, many women's thinking. So I do think that is true in many cases. Bob: Well, if you feel secure in terms of Dennis's commitment to you, right, that's unquestioned. You know he is committed to you. Barbara: That's right. Bob: Is trust still an issue? Barbara: Well, see, I think that the commitment has to be tested. See, I think women – it's like – years ago I remember Dennis sayin', you know, that he loved me. I'd say, "Well, I know you do, but you're supposed to. You're my husband." You know, and it's almost like we begin to feel, after a while, that he has to say these things or he has to do these things because he's stuck with you. So, in a sense, I think a woman wants to say, "Okay, I know you're committed to me, but are you glad you're committed to me? Would you do this again?" Dennis: Prove it. Barbara: Yeah, I mean, do you really love me? I mean, you say you do, but do you really love me? I think it needs to be – I think, as she grows older and her life changes, there are so many issues that she continually faces as her life changes, that she needs to see, again and again, from her husband, "Yes, I'm committed to you; yes, I would marry you all over again; yes, I love you," and then he needs to demonstrate that in different ways. So, yes, I know Dennis is committed to me, but I have needed for him to prove that to me in many different ways at many different times. And on the issue of trust, I think that is a parallel issue with commitment. Yes, I trust him, but I've needed to see that he is worthy of trusting – that I can trust him with my life. And I believed that at the beginning, when we first got married, but just as I've had to sort of test out the commitment through the years, I've sort of had to test out that trust factor, too, if that makes sense. Bob: Yeah, you know, Dennis, it sounds like one of the things Barbara is saying here is that there will be seasons in a marriage, where, in spite of the awareness of the commitment, you know that you know that your husband is committed, but you feel like he's committed out of duty or obligation, not because he really wants to be committed to you, and those can be difficult seasons for romance. Dennis: Yeah, but what you gotta do is move on through those, and what a husband especially needs to know is that he needs to be communicating that he is worthy of his wife's trust, and he needs to communicate to her that he loves her for who she is, not for what she can do for him, and what a wife is really expressing during those times, at least what Barbara has communicated to me, is that she just needs to feel like I love her, Barbara Rainey, for who she is as a woman and just set her apart from all other women in the world. Bob: Well, on tomorrow's broadcast, more insight from your wife, Barbara, Dennis, on how men can understand a woman's view of romance, and I hope you can join us for that. Our engineer is Mark Whitlock, our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. (Music: "How To Handle A Woman") FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. __________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Creating A More Romantic MarriageDay 1 of 8Guest: Dennis RaineyFrom the series: Why Romance is Important _______________________________________________________________ (Nat King Cole singing "L-O-V-E") Bob: Believe it or not, this is FamilyLife Today. Our host is best-selling author and conference speaker, Dennis Rainey. I'm Bob Lepine. Stay with us as we talk about L-O-V-E today on FamilyLife Today. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the broadcast. Dennis: Do you think our listeners know who Nat King Cole is, Bob? Bob: Oh, yeah, everybody knows who Nat King Cole is. I bought a two-record collection when I was in college, just because I thought, "He's got the smoothest voice, it's the most romantic music I've ever heard." Dennis: Well, you know, we also have a lot of romantic adventures at our FamilyLife Marriage Conference, and I've got a letter here from a conferee couple who attended the Phoenix FamilyLife Marriage Conference – I think this was back in 1991. This is a classic, keeper letter from the archives of the thousands of attendees who have been to our conference. Bob: Now, this is on hotel stationery, right? Dennis: That's right – the Hyatt Regency Scottsdale. "Dear Dennis, when you suggested last night for us to be more creative in our romance, you never gave us the warning that it could be dangerous." Then in all capital letters, it reads, "RULE NUMBER 1 – ALWAYS BE PREPARED! AT LEAST WITH A SPARE KEY" – and now the rest of the story. "After dinner and the sunset, we decided to take your advice and to add a little romance and be a little daring. Staying here at the hotel, we crept out onto our fourth-floor balcony for an incredibly romantic view, not to mention some privacy. Unbeknown to us, while we were 'communicating' and 'learning more about each other,' the maid was inside our bedroom, turning down our bedsheets for us. She did not know we were on the balcony. We did not know she was in the room. Maybe you can guess the rest. She locked the sliding glass door." It is signed, "Two lovers, romantic sky, and lots of privacy. Embarrassed from California." Bob: So you have no idea how they ever got back in, huh? Dennis: Your mind is only left to wonder – how did they get back in, there on the fourth floor of the hotel? Bob: Well, that is a part of what we hope will be a romantic evening for couples at the FamilyLife Marriage Conference, but we hope that's not the end of romantic evenings for couples. Dennis: Well, we really talk about FamilyLife Marriage Conference, taking Saturday and making it an adventure. That's not the kind of adventure we're talking about. We are talking about adding romance to your relationship, and I think at our conferences across the United States, that's what a lot of couples really seen infused back into their marriage relationship through all the teachings of scripture that build intimacy in their marriage relationship, they better understand how to relate to each other as husband and wife, and what I wanted to do, Bob, was I wanted to take the next few days, prior to Valentine's Day, and I wanted us to talk about the all-important subject of romance. Bob: Now, you call it an all-important subject. You kind of get the feel that romance is something that's a part of the courtship process. After marriage, romance just doesn't seem like it has the same, you know – Dennis: – sizzle. Bob: Yeah, yeah. Dennis: Yeah, that's right. Well, let me just read something from Song of Solomon, okay? Song of Solomon, chapter 1, verse 2 – "May he kiss me with the kisses of his mouth, for your love is better than wine; your oils have a pleasing fragrance; your name is like purified oil; therefore, the maidens love you. Draw me after you." Now, here's the Shulamite woman who is attracted to Solomon. She is wanting her husband as the bride, and, you know, it's interesting that our God devoted an entire book of the 66 books that are in the inspired Word of God to this subject of romantic love, and one of the reasons why I wanted to talk about this is I think Christians are afraid of the subject, Bob. I think we're afraid to address this whole area of romantic love in marriage even though our God thought it all up in the first place. Bob: Some people have suggested that Song of Solomon is a parable showing us God's love for Israel or Jesus' love for His church. You're saying that God put it in the Bible to talk about the romantic relationship between a husband and wife? Dennis: I wonder about the people who say that – if they really read the verses, because they've got to do away with a lot of physical imagery that doesn't leave that much to the imagination. I mean, it's clear they're talking about the whole area of romantic and sexual love in a marriage relationship. Bob: Is romance really important for a marriage? I mean, can't a marriage survive just fine for 30 or 40 years and not have a whole lot of sizzle and spark to it? Dennis: Well, I think marriages can survive, I think that's a key word, but will they be what God intended? I say not. One of the things that happens in a marriage relationship is if we don't have romance, something that adds excitement and adventure, intrigue, thrill, I think we get caught up in the negative about our spouse, and when you begin to focus on the negative and the faults of the other person, that relationship begins to spiral downward. And one of the reasons why I think Valentine's is such an important time of the year, especially for the Christian marriages, is to remind us that we ought to be making this subject of romance a part of our everyday diet in our marriage relationship. The Bible speaks about, over in Proverbs, chapter 5, verse 15 and then 18 through 19, that a man was to be captured by his wife's sexual powers. He was to be captivated by his wife. That's a powerful image to be literally captured by your spouse. The Bible is talking about this as far as thrill, excitement, adventure, an emotional excitement that I think sets a marriage apart from just a pure friendship. I mean, Barbara is my friend, but there is a side of our friendship that goes way beyond just two friends who are pals to two people who, yes, share a marriage bed together and who dream thoughts and share intimacies that are shared with nobody else on this planet, and that's what God intended, I believe, in the marriage relationship. Bob: Well, now, you've got 50 percent of your audience listening to you, goin', "Preach it, Brother Rainey. Yes, amen." Dennis: And what sex might they be? Bob: Well, some of 'em are women who are saying, "Yes, talk to my husband and teach him how to be more romantic with me," and others are men saying, "Yes, talk to my wife." It's interesting that opposites attract in this area. Dennis: Well, you know, therein lies a real problem in discussing this, because I'll just let our listeners in on some research we did out of our FamilyLife Marriage Conference. We researched over 800 of our conferees at three different FamilyLife Marriage Conferences last spring about how they viewed romance, and, I've got to tell you, men and women view it through a different set of eyes. A woman looks at romance through the eyes of intimacy, relationship, warmth. It's that connectedness of the soul and emotions, heart-to-heart. And the men looked at romance – well, how shall we say it? It was one word – sex. And you see what God is up to here, because he made us different. We are to depend upon each other, and in the process of being different, I think what God wants to do is cause both of us to love each other where we are. You see what God is up to here, is I think God is wanting to knock the edges off of me, as a man, and our male listeners, learning how to love their wives in a way that communicates love so that she feels love – not how we feel about love or what communicates love to us as men but instead learning to put on the side of love that meets a wife at that relational point of need, and there are a lot of men today who I think are frustrated sexually in their marriage relationships, primarily – listen carefully – primarily because they still have not learned how to meet their wives' emotional needs so she can be released to meet her husband's needs. Bob: Mm-hm. I've had Mary Ann from time to time say to me, "I just don't feel like we've had an opportunity to talk with one another over the last two or three days," and for a wife that is a sign of drift in the marriage relationship, isn't it? Dennis: Yeah, and I've had that same conversation with Barbara as well. I think the reason God gave us romance is He gave us a mysterious emotional love that we were to experience together as a couple. Even Webster's definition of romance, which talks about excitement, love, adventure – all those words, I think, are a part of what marriage ought to be – Christian marriage. Our God designed these emotions. I think romance – romantic love – is a part of the character of God. May I quote a Christian statesman? One of the most godly men who has ever lived who wrote a book, "My Utmost For His Highest." It's been on the best-seller list for years – Oswald Chambers. Listen to what he said about passion in Christian marriage. "Human nature, if it is healthy, demands excitement, and if it does not obtain its thrilling excitement in the right way, it will seek it in the wrong. God never made bloodless stoics. He makes passionate saints." I love that quote, because I think that's the picture of a God who loves his people and who wired us to have excitement and thrill and adventure. It's not just for the single people who are involved in courtship, or just for the newly married couple who are just starting out with the high-intensity, high-octane of fresh married love. No, that romantic love, I believe, was meant to still pull us along and sweep us along in a steady current all the way through our married life. Bob: And yet it's become almost a cliché, Dennis, to talk about the honeymoon being over. It does seem that relationships go through some kind of stages. Dennis: Well, at our FamilyLife Marriage Conference, we talk about there being five phases of marriage deterioration. In other words, every marriage goes through some predictable phases where it begins to lose steam, and reality begins to set in. The first phase is what we call the "romance phase," and that's usually dating, honeymoon – it's when we're spending hours to get ready for a date, hours to plan the date. Each person sees each other at their very best, but it's not a real picture of a real relationship. This phase gives way to Phase 2, which we call the "transition phase," and this is honeymoon or early marriage, and I like to say at this phase – this is where reality begins to edit the illusion. The illusion of what we thought was a relationship is now being snipped away at by the cold, hard realities of life, and couples begin to make adjustments to each other in their values, their habits, their expectations, and can give way to criticism and snipping at each other, and the feelings begin to lower during this period of time. Well, Phase 2 gives way to Phase 3, which is the full-blown reality phase and, frankly, this is where marriages are either won or lost. Some of the things that press in against us during this reality phase – moving – a lot of couples move after they get married; differing friends; job changes and stress; conflicting material values – they start seeing how they handle the checkbook; children come along, there's parenting pressures; in-law interference; difficulties; health issues; problems in life – all of these things press in against the relationship and now the illusion has been fully edited. Bob: And they begin to put a little chill on the romantic side of marriage, don't they? Dennis: Well, romance is replaced by disappointment and discouragement, and when that begins to fuel the relationship, two people who had turned toward each other in the dating years now can turn against each other, and that really leads us to the fourth phase, the "retaliation phase," and that's where emotional and even physical retaliation becomes an alternative, and it's unthinkable that a couple who had held hands would now cut away at the person they said they wanted to spend the rest of their lives with. Resentment and bitterness begin to take up residence where romance had once been. A man begins to sell his life out to his job, because that's where he gets rewards; women to likewise, or she sells her life out to her children, and what begins to happen here is marriage is viewed with despair – no longer expectancy, excitement or thrill. You don't look forward to getting home in the evening and spending the evening together or the weekends together. You find a way to allow that relationship to be crowded out. And that really gives way to the last phase, Phase 5 – that's the "rejection phase," and that's the death of a relationship in which there are really two alternatives – one which is legal divorce, where two people separate and go their own ways or, really, where most relationships end up dying, and that is emotional divorce, where two people just simply withdraw from each other, and there's a truce. Bob: It seems like in the early phases that you describe, Dennis, romance is easy. In the last two phases, it's almost impossible, because of the anger or the bitterness or the other things that have begun to take root. It's really in that middle phase, the reality phase, where, as you said, the battle for romance is won or lost. Dennis: You know, that's where we've got to win the battle, is before you ever get to this time of resentment and retaliation and rejection, where you're at the tail-end of the relationship, and you've got to breathe so much life back into the marriage it almost seems hopeless. But you know what? I want to go back to that reality phase, because that's where all of us live. We've all got to learn, in the midst of the time pressures with kids and finances and jobs and health issues – how do we hammer out a Christian life? You know, I've given the better part of two decades here at FamilyLife dedicating myself and this ministry to writing books like, "Staying Close," to helping couples deal with the reality phase, or "Building Your Mate's Self-Esteem," another book where we talked about how you can build up the other person so you don't ever get to the point where you're rejecting your spouse; or the FamilyLife Marriage Conference, which is a weekend to help couples go back to that reality phase, and give them a biblical game plan for how they can move through reality and move on to blessing, where their relationship and love for one another matures and grows, and I think that's exactly what God wants to do, as He instructs us to the scripture. He is moving us to mature love, commitment, and it's nothing that's not spoken enough about today, and we're going to be talking about it a lot here in the coming days. Bob: Well, Dennis, some of our listeners are thinkin', "The last thing on my mind is romance at this point. We've moved into Phases 4 or 5 – retaliation or rejection, and the anger and the bitterness that is a part of this – I can't even think about romance. Is this series going to apply to me?" Dennis: I think it will, and we're going to be sensitive to those couples who are finding themselves in unequally yoked marriages where a person is married to someone who is not a believer or someone who is not growing spiritually. Perhaps Psalm 27, verse 13 would bring some hope – "I would have despaired unless I had believed that I would see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord, be strong, and let your heart take courage. Yes, wait for the Lord." And I think there's a time to wait in prayer, but there may be some things that a person can do in that situation, where you're married to a spouse who is totally apathetic about that relationship, and if you're in that situation, could I encourage you to, yes, do pray, and do ask God to deliver you from despair and begin to give you the courage that only He can give you to build into that marriage and perhaps by adding romance back into that relationship, perhaps that will be the missing ingredient to help your spouse come to faith in Jesus Christ. Let me just conclude our broadcast today with some action points that can help you be a better romantic lover of your spouse. First of all, take a romantic inventory of your relationship. On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being excellent, how would you rate romance as a part of your marriage relationship? Tonight ask your spouse to do that and then compare notes and see how you're doing. Secondly, and this comes from the questions book. You shared about how listeners could get a copy of that – from the questions book, I like to ask Barbara this question all the time, because it really does spark romance in our relationship, and it sounds odd, but I ask her this question – What are the three most romantic times that we've shared together? What brought those sparks originally? What's caused romance? Why would you select that? And there's something about reliving those romantic moments that I think gives us insight into why our spouse chose that and can also add that excitement back to our relationship today. A third application point would be to pray and ask God to help you begin courting your spouse. You know, there are some listeners who are in a hurting marriage, where that's where they need to start right there – is in prayer asking God to give them some hope, to begin to court their spouse once again. Bob: Well, let me add a fourth, and that's to join us back here tomorrow at this same time, when we're going to talk about the "romance robbers" in a relationship – the foxes in the vineyard, right? Dennis: That's right. Bob: That's on tomorrow's edition of FamilyLife Today. I hope you can join us for that. Our engineer is Mark Whitlock, our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. (Nat King Cole singing "L-O-V-E") FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. ______________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Creating A More Romantic Marriage Day 4 of 8 Guest: Barbara Rainey From the Series: A Woman's View of Romance_____________________________________________________________ Bob: Welcome to FamilyLife Today. Today we're speaking frankly about how a woman views romance. (Music: "Love and Marriage") And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the broadcast. We are beginning Week Number 2 of our look at Creating a More Romantic Marriage, and I just want to encourage folks, if you missed any of last week's programs, or if you're going to miss any of this week's programs, this is a series that husbands and wives ought to get and listen to together, and then they can talk, they can interact, about what they hear on the tapes. Dennis: You know, this subject of developing and cultivating romance in a marriage relationship is a discussion that is long overdue among Christian couples, because we ought to have among the most passionate relationships on the planet. Our God created romance in the first place. Bob: Well, we're going to talk on today's broadcast about how men and women view romance, and we've brought your wife, Barbara, back in the studio with us today. Barbara, welcome back to FamilyLife Today. Barbara: Thanks, good to be here. Bob: And one of the things that we want to do is look at research. Dennis: Right. Bob: You commissioned that be done at our FamilyLife Marriage Conferences across the country – we had a researcher who talked with women about how they view romance, how they view it primarily, is that right? Dennis: Actually, this Top 10 list of romantic acts came from both men and women. Bob: Well, let me go over the list, Barbara. I'm going to go from 10 to 1, and I'll read what people indicated expressed romance, and then I want to know, as a man, and I want to know how I can keep these ideas in front of me and sprinkle them into a relationship as a way to express romance – again, with no hidden agenda, no – not driving for anything. Number 10, hands are romantic; holding hands, particularly, is romantic for a woman. Do you like holding hands with Dennis? Barbara: Mm-hm. Bob: Why is that romantic for you? Barbara: I do it because it says, "I want to be close to you, and I like you, and you're my friend, and I want to be next to you." I mean, those are the kinds of things that communicates to me, and that's the reason that I initiate it, and I think that's probably the same for him, too. So I think it's the closeness that it communicates. Bob: Okay, how about Number 9, which is massaging one another – rubbing the neck. Do you like when Dennis reaches over and rubs the back of your neck? Dennis, massage oftentimes will have a sexual connotation, and some women may pull back from liking massage because they think it's just foreplay. Dennis: Right. Barbara: Exactly. I think that's right. Bob: So if it's non-sexual massage where it's just – "Let me rub your back, and you can fall asleep," then that's okay? Barbara: Oh, I think so, yeah. Bob: Number 8 on the list is serving – serving the other person – common courtesies – opening the door, holding a chair out for somebody, doing little acts of sacrifice. Is that romantic for a woman? Barbara: To me, I don't think of that as being as romantic, if I had to define them, as, say, holding hands but, again, I think it's important to do. I think it says "I am denying myself for you. I am going to serve you," and I think that anytime a husband can serve his wife sacrificially and do something for her, he's communicating to her that he cares about her and that he loves her and she's special, and he wants to make her feel special. Bob: Okay. Dennis: Let me make a comment on this next one – number 7 – because this made this spot in the combined list – 75 percent of the men picked this item as number 1 of what was most romantic. So this, again, kind of lets you know the men viewed this substantially heavier and weightier than the women did because, together, it became number 7. Bob: So men had it at number 1, women – Barbara: Someone must have had it a lot lower for the average to be seven. Dennis: It must have been a lot lower. Bob: And number 7 is a kiss – an unexpected kiss, a nibble on the back of the neck, or just kissing each other. Dennis: Now, why do you think, Barbara, the women would have ranked that so much differently than the men? Barbara: Because I think it probably, if the truth be known, they might have felt that he had another motive, and I just wonder if some of the women were feeling suspicious. I think some of these other things might be able to be seen as an individual fact or as an individual gesture – Bob: – so if he opens the door, she doesn't feel he's up to something, but if he kisses her, she wonders what's goin' on in the back of his mind. Barbara: She might go, "Okay"—yeah, right – "I wonder what he's thinkin'?" Dennis: And the rest of this list, really, if you look at it, with the exception of this and the massage – really, are statements of a relationship and women view romance through the eyes of a relationship. They want to be loved, known – Barbara: – understood – Dennis: – there ya go – Barbara: – accepted, valued, appreciated – Dennis: – she knows the words – why did I even try, huh? Barbara: Well, you did a good job. Bob: It just wasn't complete. All right, number 10 was holding hands; number 9, massage; number 8 serving one another, opening doors, common courtesies; number 7, kissing; number 6 was walking. Now, there's a romantic 30 minutes – we went on a walk together – that's romantic for women? Barbara: Well, it's very relational. I think if you go for a walk, chances are you're going to go for a walk away from daily responsibilities – away from the telephone, away from the television, away from the children, away from work, away from whatever – and it allows you to focus on the relationship without having to sit on a couch and look at each other eye-to-eye and be relational, which is sometimes very threatening. Dennis: And I think the reason why most men would respond just as you did, Bob, is because of what Barbara just said – it's not sexual. When we think of what's romantic to us, and we really evaluate it, we would not put walking at the top of the list. Bob: We're going to talk about this next week – but it is interesting, because I hear you saying in this – part of what speaks romance to a woman is "Get me outta here." In the day-to-day of life with all of the kids and with all of the responsibilities – get me away from this for a little while, and that will be so refreshing to me, it will speak volumes. That's at least a part of it, and then – have a relationship with me. Barbara: I think that's part of it, mm-hm. Bob: All right, number 5 on the list – something written – written notes or letters or poems or cards or notes on the bathroom mirror or just some written remind of affection – is that romantic? Barbara: Mm-hm, I think it is. In fact, I found this note, and I don't know how old it was, but Dennis had taped a note in the bathroom, and it said, "Have you found all the little notes around that say how much I love you?" It was just fun to see that and read it again, and I thought, "You know, that's still true," and I don't know what the notes all were, but it was fun to see that. Bob: As you said that, I was thinking it was years ago – I don't know how many years ago – but one night Mary Ann had gone to bed, she was exhausted, and I sat up, and I wrote a half a dozen of the notes, and I scattered them around the house in places where it might be weeks before she would find them, and one of them was in a recipe folder that she had for chicken dishes, and I just put it in there figuring, you know, it could be six months from now, but she'll find it, it will be a surprise. Well, five, 10 years later, it's still in the same – every time I'm goin' through there, I go – Dennis: – has she never seen it? Bob: Oh, she's seen it. Barbara: She's probably seen it and left it there. Bob: But she's never thrown it away, and I keep – you know – why don't you throw this thing away? I mean, it's old, it's on old stationery. All right, let me read through the list here again – number 10, hands; number 9, massage; number 8, serving one another; number 7, kiss; number 6, walking; number 5, something written; number 4, going out on a day – time away – dates with no kids, dinner out, a weekend at a bed and breakfast – just time alone together on dates. Is that romantic? Barbara: Yeah, mm-hm. I think, for the same reason again, I think a wife feels that she is the focus of her husband's attention when she knows that he's doing this for her. Bob: You two have made that a regular part of your relationship. There is, as often as you're able, on a weekly basis, you have a date. Does that make it less special? Barbara: No. Bob: It's routine? Barbara: Huh-uh, not at all. Bob: You look forward to Sunday night date night, even if it's every week? Barbara: Yeah, I look forward to that moreso now than when we tried doing this when our kids were young. We tried doing it when our children were young, and it was hard to do it, because it was hard to get babysitters, and it was hard to get away, and in those years, it was easier for us to spend time together at home because the kids all went to bed at 7:30 or 8, and we had two hours, at least, every evening. Well, now that our children are older, it's really tough to get two seconds alone at home. Dennis: Right, but when the kids were little, one of the ways we solved the problem of babysitters was we would go ahead and put the kids to bed, and then I would prepare the meal and would give Barbara 30, 45 minutes to run about doing her duties, and then I would take the meal upstairs to our bedroom and had a table at the foot of our bed that I put a nice tablecloth on and with the good plates and the napkins and the good silverware and had a beautiful candlelight dinner there, and when the meal was over, you didn't have to go anywhere and, frankly, we have some great memories of those conversations because at the end of the evening there was nothing to change the mood of the evening. We didn't have to go anywhere – we were there, and I took the dishes downstairs while she got ready for bed and cleaned up the kitchen so she didn't come back downstairs the next morning to a dirty kitchen. Bob: That really ties to number 3, which is meals. Number 4 is a date together; number 3 is having meals together – special meals, candlelight, quiet dinner alone, picnics, a breakfast out together – those kinds of events, but what is it about a picnic away or Dennis saying, "Let's go out and have breakfast, just the two of us." What is it about that that's romantic? Barbara: Well, I think it's the unexpected. The one that jumps off the list that you just read to me is picnic because that's one we've done so seldom, and that would be, to me, the most fun because that's one which is hardly ever done. So I think keeping variety in it is really a good idea, but there's a lot (inaudible) – [crosstalk] Bob: – make note of that. I'm just checkin' to see if you're makin' notes here. Barbara: He knows. We've talked about it. It's just hard to pull off. Bob: All right, number 2 is touch, and with this we're not talking about sexual touch, we're talking about holding or hugs or cuddling or affection in public and yet, even as I say that, I think, for a lot of women, being touched may always feel sexual to them. They may, like with a kiss or with a massage, wonder what's really behind this, mightn't they? Barbara: Well, I think so, but I think that's where a husband needs to know his wife, and he needs to ask her questions, he needs to seek to understand who she is and where she's coming from and why she feels the way she does and how she will respond to different things, because it may be that she will feel somewhat suspicious with physical touch. And so he may need to assure her – "I just want to hug you because I love you – no strings attached, I'm just committed to you, and that's all I want you to know" – or something that helps her understand his meaning or his intent behind it, because I do think that, just like with holding hands, it communicates closeness, it communicates "I like you." I think hugs and other kinds of affection that's non-sexual affection sends the same message. It communicates I like you and I want to be close to you, and I think you're a neat person. Dennis: Yeah, one of the best-sellers at our FamilyLife Marriage Conference is Ed Wheat's book, "Love Life For Every Married Couple," and it's a book about romance, and when I first read this a number of years ago, I kind of laughed that he would need to take three pages in the book to give married couples exercises for learning how to touch one another. But on page 184 through 186 he has 25 suggestions for touching, and I'll just read a couple of these, because they're really quite instructive, I think. "Number 1 – when dating, young people can scarcely be kept apart. Most married couples have forgotten how much fun physical closeness can be. So set aside practice times at night, at least once a week, to learn the delights of non-sexual body caressing." At this point, in our marriage conference, when I read this, all the engaged people fall out of their chairs laughing. The married people aren't laughing. They're goin' "That's a good idea." "Number 2 – show each other where you like to be touched and the kind of touch that really pleases you. Usually a light touch is the most thrilling. Be imaginative in the way you caress." You know, I think he's onto something here to give us some practical thoughts about how to re-ignite exploration through tender touching of one another's bodies. I think when we get married the familiarity with one another causes the loss of the intrigue, the exploration, and the excitement, and I think Dr. Wheat does a great job of giving us some practical projects that couples, I think, will find exciting. Bob: I've got to imagine there are some men who are saying, "This sounds to me like a contradiction in terms – non-sexual touching. I can do that, sure, but in the back of my mind, touching is, for me, sexually stimulating. Whether it's holding hands, whether it's putting my arm around my wife, whether it's re-imagining the things we did on dates – that has a sexual dimension and for me not to have the sexual dimension fulfilled is a sacrifice on my part." Dennis: That's the point. I think to have those feelings is normal. To deny that you have those feelings is not healthy. I think it's okay to experience attraction, arousal, at that point. I think what our wives are looking for is such a premium, such a value placed upon the relationship and who she is, that we are willing to set aside those desires and not take that touch toward what we, as men, would know would be the intended objective. Bob: I remember the Ann Landers survey, you know, where they said, "Would you rather have sexual relations with your husband or just cuddle with him?" And women, in droves, said, "I'd rather just cuddle with him," and I thought, "Do the women understand that cuddling with him is stimulating sexually?" And that's the reason that it often goes on to sexual relations, because he's responding to what's going on inside of him, and you're saying he needs to put that to death from time to time. Dennis: That's right – and not allow his mind to continue on. He needs to build some limits that really communicate to his wife that "I'm willing to set aside my desires for you." Barbara: Yeah, and I was just thinking, as you were saying about the survey that I think probably the reason a lot of women feel that way is they probably weren't loved and cuddled as children by their parents, and they missed that, and they have this deep longing to know that they are loved, and they want that from their husband, and if all they get from their husband is sexual initiation or sexual touching or cuddling, then they think, "Gosh, he doesn't really love me, he just needs me," or "He just wants me for his own pleasure, his own need," and so I think that's, again, another cue for a man to say, "I need to understand my wife. I need to understand why she needs non-sexual affection," and I think we all need affection, because we need to know that we're valued as people, and that's a way to communicate that. But I think that, for a husband, he needs to say, "Okay, why does she feel this way? Why does my wife need non-sexual affection?" And he needs to ask her, and they need to talk that through, and he needs to be willing to give it to her with no strings attached. Bob: Mm-hm, okay, top 10 again – Number 10, holding hands; number 9, massage; number 8, serving one another; number 7, a kiss; number 6, walking together; number 5, written love notes to one another; number 4, going out on dates; number 3, having meals together; number 2 is non-sexual touching – Dennis: – and number 1 is not diamonds. Bob: Number 1, the most romantic act, according to respondents at the FamilyLife Marriage Conference – do you want to say what it was? Dennis: Go ahead. Bob: It's flowers – delivered, hand-picked, bringing them home – a single rose – it doesn't seem to matter. I'll never forget being at a FamilyLife Marriage Conference where I was speaking, and I got – we were all waiting for the elevator, a whole group of us waiting for the elevator, and when the elevator car came, here came the guy holding a dozen roses, and he walked off – he was the flower delivery guy – and every woman at the elevator turned to watch, to see which room in the hotel he was going to, and they watched, and they watched – nobody got on the elevator, they just watched. Barbara: How funny. Bob: And finally, he went down the hall and finally he stopped at a room and as soon as he did, all these women kind of turned at their husband and glared at him, like, "That wasn't our room. How come you didn't get me flowers?" There is – what is it about flowers, Barbara? Barbara: Well, I think flowers say that you're special. I think it's the surprise that comes with flowers. I think it's because they're unexpected. I think because it's a frivolous thing, and I think it communicates love. I think it says lots of things to a woman about love and about her being a special person, a valued person, an appreciated person – that her husband is willing to do that for her. Bob: When Dennis brings home flowers do you immediately stop and think, "What's he up to?" Barbara: I don't think I have. I really don't think I have. Bob: So we go through this top 10 list as men – we look at all of the non-sexual things that are on the list, and we say, "Are you sayin' I just need to keep doin' these over and over again, mixing 'em in, a little bit here, a little bit there, and expect nothing in return?" Barbara: Yeah, but I think husbands need to ask the Lord to help them be creative and ask the Lord to help them think of their wives and ask God to help them understand and pursue, because it isn't – again, as we've talked about a formula several different times – but I think that the idea is that a woman wants to feel special and valued and appreciated and all of those words I've been using, and I think she needs to feel that from her husband in different ways at different times and unique opportunities. Bob: You know, this is going to sound redundant, but just listening to all of this, I thought romance was supposed to be fun, and it this doesn't sound like as much fun as I had hoped it would be. Dennis: But I think it is fun. I think it is fun to find out what communicates romance to my wife. Barbara: And it may not be fun in the way you've always defined fun, because I've learned to enjoy a lot of things through the years of being married to Dennis, because he has introduced me to things that I would have never done on my own and, likewise, he has learned to enjoy things that he would have never done if it weren't for me. So I think we need to be willing to have our definition of fun broadened, because it will be fun, but it may be fun in a different way than what you're thinking and be willing to try something new. You may like it. Bob: Well, I just want to say thanks. Can I thank your wife for being on the broadcast with us? Dennis: Only after I do – honey, thanks for sharing your heart and being real for women, so – well – a lot of men can better understand how to communicate love and romance to their wives. Bob: Yeah, and thanks for the insight I've gotten over the last three days of the broadcast on how women view romance. Well, on tomorrow's broadcast we're going to talk to – I don't know how to describe him – you described him as the "Michael Jordan of romance," right? Dennis: Whatever you do, every man needs to listen to tomorrow. You think you are a romantic husband – do not miss tomorrow, because you're going to be blown away by the guy we have the opportunity to talk to tomorrow. Bob: I hope you can be here for it. Our engineer is Mark Whitlock, our host Dennis Rainey, and I'm – Dennis: – would you agree, Bob? Bob: I would agree, absolutely. Dennis: All right, okay. Bob: I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. (Music: "Love and Marriage") FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. __________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. 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FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Creating a More Romantic MarriageDay 1 of 8 Guest: Dennis Rainey From the Series: The Most Romantic Thing________________________________________________________________Music: Bob: And, welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the broadcast. I did it yesterday; I went ahead and declared this the year of romance in my marriage. Dennis: All right. Bob: So, we're going to kick off a year-long romantic adventure. Dennis: Should we call Mary Anne right now and see how you did on day one? Bob: I don't know. Dennis: We'll save that for a little later. All right? You know, I ran across something that, even though it's the day after Valentine's Day, I found it fascinating to go back and look at, really, the historical significance of this day. Valentine was a Pagan priest who lived in the third century. He was not a Christian, but he really found it very difficult to stomach that these Christians were being persecuted. He put his foot down – so much so that they threw him into prison. While he was in prison, he converted to Christianity and was asked to renounce his faith. He didn't. He stayed in prison for a long time. One historian said that during his last days, Valentine often thought of his family and friends who were not allowed to come visit him. Tradition has it that in order to communicate his love, he would reach out his window bars and pick the violets which grew outside. He then pierced the heart-shaped leaves with a message like “Remember your Valentine.” Then he sent the message home with some homing pigeons supplied by his family. Toward the end of his life, the message changed to a simple “I love you.” Finally, when he refused to renounce his faith in Christ, Valentine was clubbed to death in his cell February 14, 268 A.D. You know, that's interesting that yesterday is a day that we celebrate love, but so much of the world's celebration of this love is not from an agape - God's love for us, which caused us to love him. Instead, it's a narcissistic kind of love. You know, if anybody ought to have the right kind of love on Valentine's Day, or for that matter, throughout the year, it ought to be Christians. Bob: Yeah. I would hope that over the last two and a half weeks, Dennis, as you and Barbara have shared on this series and on this subject of romance, that message has come crystal clear – that the foundation for romance in marriage has got to be the solid commitment between a husband and a wife. If for any reason folks have not been able to be with us over the last two and a half weeks, I would encourage them to get the cassette tapes of these broadcasts, and together, with their spouse, listen to this discussion on romance. It will give them an opportunity to interact over what romance ought to be in marriage. Dennis: I really agree. I think a lot of times in marriage, we really miss each other because we're communicating what communicates love to us, not what communicates love to my wife. There are a lot of men who would really benefit from hearing Barbara talk straight about what a woman is looking for in romance from her husband. Bob: Or, from hearing you talk straight to women about how men view romance. If you're interested in getting this cassette series, call us toll free at 1-800-FL-TODAY. We'll get you the information you need. Dennis: Well, I'm excited about today because we're going to give our listeners the privilege of hearing the most creative ideas we've been able to gather from our FamilyLife marriage conference speaker team, from our FamilyLife staff here in Little Rock, and from some of our FamilyLife marriage conference messages that have been given over the past year. What I would encourage you to do right now, if you're driving, pull out a 3 by 5 card or open your daytimes; or if you're at home, get yourself a piece of paper and a pencil, because you're going to hear at least a half dozen ideas that you ought to be able to use at some point in your marriage over the coming year. Bob: If you're driving, please write these down only at stoplights when you come to an appropriate point. Dennis: That's right. There could be liability back here against FamilyLife Today. Bob: Well, we kick things off with someone from our staff, Lance Coffman, sharing about the most romantic birthday he ever had. Lance: “Yesterday was my birthday, and it was a very special time. Just to show you how special I felt… I guess, to sum it up, she was thinking of me throughout the whole time. What I mean by that, is Sunday she took me to the Macaroni Grill. But, see, it was a gift certificate given to her, and it was just a special time that she would take that to spend on me for my birthday lunch. She said, ‘Okay. That's a [unintelligible] of what's to come.' Anyway, we went to bed that night. I woke up the next morning and went to the bathroom, and plastered all over the mirror was posters: ‘Happy Birthday, Lance. Happy Birthday, No. 30.' Then she gave me a card and a present. Then she cooked me breakfast. I was off to work. Around 10:30, the guys called me over, and Denise brought some oatmeal cookies. They sang me ‘Happy Birthday,' and I went back to work. But, Denise, said, ‘Lance, call me before you come home.' I said, ‘Okay.' So, I called her before I came home, saying ‘I'm coming home.' So, I come home, and there's a note on the door. It's around 5:15. I don't leave work early. The note said, ‘Lance, ring the doorbell before you come in.' See, usually, I just come in. This time, I was going to ring the doorbell. So, I rang the doorbell, and Denise opens the door. She's in a black tuxedo with tails. She goes, ‘Mr. Coffman, happy birthday. Your dinner's ready.'” Woman: “This happened on Valentine's Day last year, when I'd asked Jeff to stop at the store and get me some groceries. I really think that he forgot it was Valentine's Day, and I'd been on the phone with my friend. She got flowers and a little necklace. I thought to myself, ‘I know he forgot, and I'm not going to get anything.' He came home from the grocery store, sat me down on the table and had this big bag of groceries. He made me sit down, and he proceeded to take one thing out at a time. It was all these different kinds of fruits and all these different groceries. The ones that I remember in my mind was… As he took each item out, he'd say something sweet to me. He grabbed the apple out, and he said, ‘Honey, you're the apple of my eye.' He sat it on the table. He grabbed the diapers out and said, ‘I love to get Huggies from you.' He set it on the table. He had a pear, and he put that on the table and said, ‘We're such a great pair.' He had a little jar of that honey bear, and he said to me, ‘Your kisses drip with honey.' Then, there was a little carton of milk, and he said, ‘I want to milk every moment God's given me with you.' Then, the last thing I do remember that he pulled out of the bag was a whole bunch of bananas, and he said he wanted to go peel my clothes off.” Woman: “Well, I just have to share with you how Dan totally outdid himself for my birthday this last year. The media department knows all about it. I've never, ever in all my years of marriage, and we've been married 21 years, ever been kept totally in surprise of a surprise. Anyway, it was my birthday. The morning of my birthday, Haman Cross was supposed to come in to be with student venture at [unintelligible], so the setting was so natural. Dan was home. We were going to take off to go together to the school and spend the morning there and everything. For some reason, that morning… Usually we have our celebration at night, but we had this big breakfast in the morning, all decorated and everything. The kids had helped him with it. I thought, ‘Oh, well. Yeah. Tonight we have a meeting, so this is probably their celebration.' Anyway, I had my birthday celebration and got to the school and all. Dan just whispered in my ear while Haman Cross was speaking, ‘I have a package that has to get to the airport.' He said, ‘It has to be there by such and such a time, so we need to leave just a little bit early. Then I'll take you out to dinner.' I thought, ‘Yeah.' We don't get a whole lot of time just to spend relaxing over a dinner. I was really excited about that. We got up, we left early, got to the airport; and there was this package sitting between us on the way out to the airport. I thought, ‘This is kind of strange,' but I know that he has all kind of strange errands to do, so I didn't really question it. We got to the airport, and I watched him go to try to check it in. I went to look at some magazines. He came back, and he said, ‘Oh, it's going to be another half hour. I can't check it in for another half hour.' So, we went and got ice cream. I thought, ‘This is going to ruin our lunch together. Should we really be eating this?' He goes, ‘Oh, it's fine. You'll still have room for something else.' So, anyway, it got to be about five minutes before the time, and he walked me over to this airlines. I just thought he was going to put the box on the counter. He sat me down, and he handed me the box. I go, ‘What is this?' I didn't have a clue what was going on. I open the box, and in there was a gift bag just full of my favorite magazines, candy bars, a card from each one of the kids, a card from him. I opened the card from him, and there was spending money and then a ticket to California to visit my best friend in California. And, I totally lost it. I cried. I said, ‘I can't leave my agenda for this week.' It was just packed with all kinds of really important events and everything. I just said, ‘The girls can't do without me.' ‘They can do without you, dear. Honest. Leave it with me.' So, anyway, it took me until St. Louis to gain composure and stop crying. The guy that sat next to me thought I was just totally out to lunch. He couldn't understand. I couldn't even gain composure to tell him what had happened. Anyway, that is the biggest surprise, and it was a wonderful birthday.” Man: “A few years ago, I had to leave my wonderful wife for about a month on a trip in Europe. She, of course, helped me remember the things to pack, and we had a list to check off. The first night that I was there, I opened my suitcase, and I found a large manila envelope. In the envelope, there were smaller envelopes with each date that I would be gone. As I went through that trip for a month, every evening I had a different envelope to open with some very sweet little poems or some Snickers bars or something else. She had gone to all the trouble to think about the whole 30 days I'd be gone and to just communicate things to keep us close, at least in spirit.” Man: “Letter B. A wife feels cherished when there is romance in the relationship - little things and little comments. You and I don't care if our wife says, ‘You sure look nice,' but our wives care very much if we would say, ‘Sweetheart, that really does you justice. You really look good in hot pink or navy blue' or whatever – things that would never occur to us, but it means a lot to them to hear us express it. You figure it out. Learn to speak woman, because her needs are different. One day, I remember thinking of my wife. I lived out… We lived out on the east side of town, and the hospital that I had to make a pastoral call in was in the middle of town. The town center - the shopping center where Linda was working at the time to help keep the boys in college was in between. I thought, ‘I'm going to express my love for Linda.' I stopped at Safeway on the way. I grabbed one of those rosebud things (it probably cost me $5.00) and a card. The card probably cost $5.00 too. I knew where she parked her car because I'd been in the parking lot. I grabbed the key, I opened the car door, I put the rosebud on the console between the seats and slipped the card on the seat. I shut the car and locked it and went off about my pastoral call and back to work. That evening we had a conversation about that little episode. I said, ‘What did you think when you saw that there?' She said, ‘Well, I started to put my key in the car, and I saw somebody had been in my car. I knew it couldn't have been you. So I checked behind the seat to make sure nobody was lurking there.' Then, she said, ‘I opened the door, I appreciated the rose, I opened the card.' She began to cry over a card that cost me $3.00. One day… Friday was a day off. I finally got a day off, and she was working that morning, but a half day. So, I knew she'd be home around noon. I figured, ‘Well, what would she do if she were there and if our roles were reversed?' If I'd have looked through her lenses, she would fix lunch. ‘I'll fix lunch.' I don't do lunch. When I go hunting with the guys, it's donut holes and milk. We don't cook. You know? But, I thought, ‘what would Linda do?' Well, she would not have lunch on the regular kitchen table because that's just the hoy paloy table. She would have lunch in the dining room. That means more to her – the dining room. It's special. So, I set the dining room table with the china, because you don't use the stoneware; you use the china when you're trying to give a message, at least you do when you're a woman. So, I'm trying to learn to speak this language. I set the china on the table. Now, the real challenge. You've got to put food on it. I don't do much food, but I figured tuna fish. I can handle tuna fish. China and tuna. It didn't matter. It was an effort. She understands. So, I got some tuna, and I put it on half of an English muffin, and I set it on the plate. It looked really bad. You know, big china plate, little English muffin, and a pile of tuna. I remembered on Sunday nights after church, she'll sometimes do that, and she'll melt some cheese with some pineapple and stuff and that sort of thing. It looked a little bit better. It still wasn't too cool, but it was a little bit better. When she came in, she was overwhelmed. She was absolutely overwhelmed. She was struck by that. The power of a woman to respond is incredible. I would say we had the most powerful session of lovemaking that we had had in years, all because I was trying to learn to speak the language. I wasn't doing it for the selfish reason of her responding like that. That was a gift she gave to me, you see, with no strings attached.” Woman: “[Unintelligible] when he's kind of quiet and creative both. So, the things that I want to share fit both of those. First of all, Blaine designed my wedding rings. We had a friend that was a jeweler, and he carved them out of a piece of wax and had the jeweler cast the gold and set the diamond for us. He totally surprised me with that. I wasn't expecting it. He didn't get the same thing. I'm not quite that creative. And, a few years ago, on Valentine's, we had, as many young couples do, struggled with finances. Every year, we kept cutting out one more gift that we gave each other. So, Valentine's was one that we decided we'd have to cut out. That year, I wasn't expecting anything but maybe a card. He bought one of those blank books that's bound. Now, every year at Valentine's, he writes me a love letter. That was really sweet. Very special. Something neat for our kids some day.” Woman: “My husband brings me home flowers all the time. He does laundry when I don't need it done. He just does it. But, one of the things that popped to my mind was he gave me the privilege of having two of his children. And, over the years, I thought a lot about how much he does for me and how much he loves me. But, the most romantic thing he's ever done is he's allowed me to have the privilege of being his wife and the mother of his children. There isn't a day that goes by that he doesn't in some way express his love to me, whether it's doing the little things or whether it's doing the big things or whether it's bringing home flowers. But, he does it every day. For me, that's the most romantic thing my husband can do for me.” Bob: Well, what a treat. We've been listening together to members of our FamilyLife marriage conference speaker team and folks who are on the staff here at FamilyLife, all of these folks sharing about romance in their marriage. I think this is a fitting conclusion to the last two and a half weeks as we've tried to peel back our hearts a little bit and look inside to see how we can re-ignite the romantic spark in marriage. Dennis: What we've talked about here is that romance is a need that every marriage has. Men need romance because they need to be needed. They need to be needed sexually by their wives, they need to be attracted to their wives, and they need their wives to be attracted to them. Women need romance because they need a relationship with their husband, and they want a relationship with him. They want to be courted and pursued by their husbands. I think all too often, this is one area of the marriage relationship that we don't pay attention to. So, it's no mistake that the fires begin to go out, and the coals grow cold. A marriage ought to be a place that has excitement, fun and romance and some intrigue about it. Bob: I think there are two things we can recommend to couples, Dennis, as a way to breath some romantic life back into a marriage. One of them is the collection that we put together called “Simply Romantic.” That was put together specifically to give couples a plan, give them a tool, give them something that they can use in their marriage relationship, some practical help for making romance come alive. Frankly, all of us need that kind of help from time to time. Dennis: Yeah. We're a culture that kind of gets into games. Although this isn't a game, it is a collection in a box. We've got it right here in front of us. It's got some cards just for men that help men communicate romance to their wives, fresh ideas for every month of the year. Then, it's got some cards for the wife; again, ideas for each month that she can use to communicate romance to her husband. It's got a little checklist that a guy can fill out on his wife. I went shopping last Christmas, and I was thinking, “What size is Barbara? Is it an 8 or a 6 that she wears in this one particular garment here?” If I'd have had this little thing right here, Bob, this would have saved me a lot of trouble. It's got love notes. It's got a booklet that I've written on why romance is important to every marriage. It's got mood music on a cassette tape on one side, and then on the other side, it's got ideas from our FamilyLife marriage conference speaker team where they shared the best ideas that they've ever had in their marriages to communicate romance to their spouses. Bob: Yeah, like the ideas that we featured on the broadcast today. We also have a questionnaire that a husband and wife can fill out that kind of is an inventory. It's a romantic analysis of your mate. It gives you an opportunity to understand them better in this critical area. Really, you mentioned it's not a game, but it kind of feels like a game. It's fun for couples to do this, and it gives them a way to bring romance alive. I think sometimes ten years in or fifteen years into the marriage, you feel a little awkward trying to make romance come alive in your marriage. Dennis: Okay. Okay. Okay. Here's one of the cards that says, “For February – romancing your wife.” Now, I'm hoping your wife is not listening to the broadcast right now. Bob: This would be things that husbands can do that would… Dennis: This is something you're going to do for Mary Anne this month. I'm going to see which one of these you'd choose. Idea number one: “Tell your wife that being close to her still excites you.” Hello. Idea number two. Well, it's too late for this one because it says, “On Valentine's Day, buy a pad of PostIt notes and write a brief message to your wife on each page. Hide them in different places where she will find them.” Oh, you did that before. Bob: I've already done that one. Dennis: And she's still finding some of those notes in recipe books and other things. That's a great idea. Idea number three: “Volunteer to do all the ironing for a week.” Now, how is it I can't picture that right there? Idea number four: “Plan a romantic evening. Dine at a nice restaurant, and then go to the theater or ballet.” Hey, that's a good idea. Idea number five: “Have a bubble bath and favorite music. Have a bubble bath and favorite music, or a book ready for your wife after she's had an especially hard day. Then give her a massage.” Now… You know, all of those are relationship builders. Bob: I think I'll do all of them, except maybe that ironing thing. I'm going to have to pray about that one. Well, listen, if you're interested in getting a copy of “Simply Romantic,” simply call us here at FamilyLife Today. The phone number is 1-800-FL-TODAY. It's 1-800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and then the word TODAY. The cost for this collection is $19.95, plus $3.00 for shipping and handling. In addition to this collection, as I mentioned earlier, we also have audiotapes of this entire series available. If you're interested in that, you can call us. We also have other resources – a whole collection of books that are helpful tools for couples who want to build a more romantic marriage. When you call, ask what resources are available to help with the maybe specific romantic needs you have in your marriage. You can call us, again, toll free, 1-800-FL-TODAY. Or, if you'd prefer to write, our address is FamilyLife Today, Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas. Our zip code is 72221. Once again, it's FamilyLife Today, Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas. And our zip code is 72221. When you call or write, please remember FamilyLife Today is a listener supported broadcast, and we appreciate those of you who stand with us with our financial needs for the ongoing work of this ministry. Well, tomorrow and Friday, Dennis, we're going to continue to talk about romantic feelings, but we're going to talk about what happens when they become misdirected. Lois Raby [sp] is going to join us in the studio to talk about the snare that is laying in wait for men and women all across this culture. Dennis: Don't miss these days with Lois Raby. Bob: I hope you can join us for that. Our engineer is Mark Whitlock; our host Dennis Rainey. I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a Ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. __________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
With COVID-19 upending our work and home lives, how does user experience need to change to reflect the "new normal"? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, I dig into this question with guest Bob Berry, a virtual operations and user experience expert who is a principal at AnswerLab and founder of ItsTheUsers. Bob has helped some of the world's largest companies, including Google, Apple, Amazon, Facebook and others, to create new, optimal online experiences in the age of Coronavirus and in this interview, he explains why companies must relearn what their customers and prospects ant and expect as their lives are transformed by the pandemic. Bob says that to not only survive, but compete and win in the future, businesses need to create optimal online experiences now. Check out the podcast to get his advance on how to go about doing that. Highlights from my conversation with Bob include: The sudden shift to working from home during the Coronavirus has put digital, virtual and online experiences front and center in a way that they have not been before. This makes it imperative that companies develop a deep understanding of what their customers' lives look like now in this new normal so that they can craft experiences that match that. Bob believes that virtually everything that happens in business is a set of individual choices or decisions by real people and the sum total of those choices is what drives the global economy. This is why user experience design is so critical. Because of changes related to the pandemic, we're going to have to determine, as marketers, whether the assumptions we've made about how people buy are still valid. And if they're not, we're going to have to learn what the new patterns are. One area that Bob believes will change is how people think about data and privacy. He predicts we'll have a quicker movement to more stringent privacy rules, prompted in part by the need to do more contact tracing related to Coronavirus. Changing user experience require that you look holistically at a business. Bob gave the example of his work with Deluxe Corporation, where he undertook an omnichannel business assessment that looked at the entire lifecycle of a customer's experience with the company. The result of that assessment and the changes the company made drove an additional $3 million to the company's bottom line. Bob says the best way to get started is by doing an inventory of every touchpoint that a customer has with your business. From there, you can use that data to develop a new narrative around what the buying journey looks like today. Understanding customer buying journeys is not an event, according to Bob, but rather a process that must be undertaken on an ongoing basis. One way to accomplish this is through survey tools and diaries that require your customers to document their interactions with your business. Bob has used a tool called dscout to do this in the past. For now, the two things that businesses can focus on are how they will stay in touch with and maintain relationships with their customers in the future, and what their products/services need to look like going forward. Resources from this episode: Visit the ItsTheUsers website Visit the AnswerLab website Connect with Bob on LinkedIn Follow Bob on Twitter Listen to the podcast to learn how the keys to business success have shifted, and what companies need to know -- and do -- right now to create user experiences that will position them for success in the future. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host Kathleen Booth. And this week my guest is Bob Barry who is the founder and principal of it's the users. Welcome to the podcast, Bob. Bob Berry (Guest): Thanks Kathleen. Glad to be here. Looking forward to this. Bob and Kathleen recording this episode. Kathleen: I am really looking forward to this because this is an interesting time and as we're recording this we're I don't even know how many weeks -- seven, eight weeks, what have you -- into pandemic quarantine. I guess it depends on where you live and et cetera, but it feels like forever and the world has undeniably changed quite a bit in that time. I think many people are just starting to kind of find their footing in what may or may not become the new normal. So we're going to talk a little bit about that and what that means for user experience. About Bob Berry and ItsTheUsers Kathleen: But before we do that, could you please tell my audience a little bit about what ItsTheUsers is and your background, and how you came to be doing what you're doing today? Bob: Certainly. So, my history goes actually back quite a ways. I originally got my degree in computer science and out of college, I actually worked for Hewlett Packard back in the day when bill and Dave were still alive. It was a very different company back then and I was one of their early eCommerce business managers when the internet and the web came along. And that's where I first started getting involved in this whole idea of experience and how experiences can really influence what we do in business. Back in those days, we developed some of the early social media, online learning, e-commerce and cloud based services before a lot of those terms even existed. I actually left HP to get involved in a number of startups during the dot com boom, and started a company that did a lot of training and learning and curriculum for youth. We actually embedded some pretty interesting experiences for young people to help them get ready for life. We were pretty far into that as we approached the great recession when a lot of the spending was starting to dry up and entrepreneurs like myself were struggling. My wife sat me down. We had five kids, four cats, and a dog at that time. And we were surviving on her teacher, principal income. She worked in public education. She sat me down and said, Hey, this isn't working. We need to find a way to have my income be more stable and more predictable. So I actually made a big shift at that point, that was around 2007, 2008 and actually became full time involved in user experience and really understanding what impact that has on business, what impact that has on people. And I've been doing user experience in one form or another since then, both as an independent and working in a corporate environment. Now I'm working for a company called AnswerLab. I do that in addition to ItsTheUsers.com. AnswerLab is really focused on working with a lot of major companies. We work with Google, Facebook, Amazon, and doing projects for all of those companies right now around user experience and helping them to figure out how to adapt what they're doing and shift their online presence and their digital strategies into this new world we're about to enter. ItsTheUsers.com is focused on bringing new people into the world of user experience and really understanding how to do that. So it's focused on a lot of people that may not have a tremendous amount of money to spend who can't pay the big ticket research studies that some of those big brands can. So it's a really interesting mix. I get to work with those big companies, you know, they invent a lot of cool new stuff and I get to work with them and put those out in the public and learn how real people react to things that those companies are inventing. And then with ItsTheUsers.com I get to work with a lot of small businesses, professionals, entrepreneurs and help introduce them to this whole world as well. And of course now we're entering this whole new phase. Like you say, we've only been a few weeks into this and we're all very interested to see how this is going to unfold and what's going to happen as we try to go back to work as we try to get our businesses restarted. I think we all have a lot to learn about how this new world is going to function. Kathleen: Absolutely. Boy, listening to you tell your story, I just have to share that it really hit close to home because when that recession hit in 2008/9, my husband and I owned a digital marketing agency together and we had four kids and two dogs. I'm listening to you tell the story and we looked at each other and we were like, Oh God, we're in the same company. We're totally in this boat together. It's either gonna sink or it's gonna float. You know, it was, those were some crazy times. I guess for that reason, my heart goes out to people who own businesses right now because I've been through that experience and I just remember so clearly the stress that that put us under at the time. So that could be a whole other podcast that we talk about, but we won't, it would probably be very stressful. It could be several podcasts, but you know, focusing on the situation that the world is in right now, it's such a unique situation, but it's also, in some very interesting ways, at least to me, it's presenting us with a unique, once in a lifetime opportunity because it's really speeding up some things that I think were going to happen anyway as far as movements to remote work and the acceleration of companies really doing more business online and all of these things that we were sort of creeping towards over time. But that process has accelerated dramatically as a result of what's happened, and I know a lot of companies are kind of scrambling to figure out what it means for them. So in terms of user experience, I'm just going to hand it over to you and I would love to hear what you're seeing as far as the changes and what you've seen done well and where companies need to improve. It's a big topic. So, you know, where do we start with this? How is COVID-19 changing user experience? Bob: Yeah, it's a big question and there are a lot of challenges wrapped up in this. I think one of the major effects that's happening right now is because of the need to quarantine, the social distance, all the lockdowns that are happening, you know, not just here in this country, but really all over the world. It's putting digital, virtual, online in the center of what we're all going to need to adapt to in a much bigger way. Fortunately, we've been working on this for a long time with the internet and the web and a lot of these virtual tools and platforms have been around long enough that all of us, or most of us, are pretty familiar with them. But as we drive that massive shift to digital and virtual, if you look at all the industries out there -- look at education, finance, entertainment, sports -- the ways we interact socially, you know? Medicine, commerce... So many things now are being transformed by this and digital and virtual really becomes the centerpiece of how we're going to have to conduct business and interact with one another. In the midst of that, there are going to be a lot of new innovations. Things are gonna change. So some of the old ways of doing things are going to go away and there are going to be a lot of new technologies. We're already seeing some of these now. A lot of new innovations are coming out just dealing with the virus. We're coming out with a lot of new technologies and new ways and of course people, as they're working remotely or as they're living and socializing remotely, we're inventing a lot of new ways to apply this technology. So to cope with all of that and deal with all of this change, the experience really is the centerpiece of all that. And so Kathleen, I kind of have this crazy idea that I promote, you know, both in my role with ItsTheUsers.com and then in my research role with AnswerLab, and the premise is that virtually everything that happens in business is a set of individual choices or decisions by real people. So certainly in inbound marketing, if somebody is going to respond to some content marketing, if they're going to react to a paid ad, if they're going to click on anything online, it's all about individual people making individual choices and decisions. And all of those decisions happen within whatever experience we put out there for them to encounter. And in fact, the other part of this theory for me is that the sum total of all of those choices is really what drives the global economy. So if that's really true, if experience is that centerpiece, if that's truly what happens, then all of it is being transformed right now. When I talk about user experience, it's more than just sort of the traditional usability. It's really about understanding people. Who are they? What are their lives like? What are their challenges? What's their personal narrative? So understanding that whole journey that they're on and therefore how do they accomplish what they need to -- that's a key part of the experience as well. So, those trends that the personal and business people that were going through this massive pivot to digital and all of the new innovations that are going to occur as a result of this, they all intersect in the experience. So we have to figure out how to invent better and new experiences so people can function, so business can function, so we can continue to run and do what we do. And we're going to have to find new ways of building, deploying and verifying all that, because now we have to do it all remotely. Kathleen: Yeah, it's so true. It's very interesting as I listen to you talk about it, I thought of a personal thing that happened in the last couple of days that I think for me at least illustrates part of what's changed. Everybody's talking about how the whole world is all of a sudden using Zoom. I've used them for years. I've worked remotely for a long time and sometimes I feel like I spend more time with Zoom than I do with my husband. So for me, Zoom has always felt very easy to use and very intuitive. I think it was designed for a person like me who is relatively, you know, technologically fluent, spends a lot of time on their computer, working remotely, et cetera. But in the last two months, the number of users of zoom has mushroomed and it includes a lot of people who are not as technologically fluent, who don't spend as much time on computers. And for me, the way this has really come to light is, I joke that my unpaid second job is that I'm now a Zoom tutor and I have taught my sister in law, my parents and my mother-in-law all how to use Zoom so that we could do these family calls. My mother in law in particular just is really reticent about it and you know, she's a little older. It was really interesting because I got her to the point where she could get on and join a call. But the other day she called me and said, I want to be able to start a call. And we went onto that little, the Zoom screen. I'm sure most people are familiar with it by now, where it says like, join, start, schedule, et cetera. And she didn't understand the difference between schedule and start and join. So I was listening to you talk. It got me thinking that Zoom is a great example, it has this new audience that doesn't just intuitively understand the differences in those meanings and it's almost like they need to change that little screen. Just say I want to start a meeting, schedule one for later, join someone else's meeting. It needs to be even more explicit now for those people who aren't as much digital natives as maybe it's prior user base wise. So I just wanted to share that story because it's so fresh in my mind and it's nothing that I ever would have thought of. To me, the interface of zoom just seems so easy and simple. But then when I was walking through it with her, I was able to see it through a different lens. Bob: Yeah. I have to laugh because I'm sure you've heard the Zoom story yesterday with the Supreme court. So the Supreme court is trying to hear cases and make decisions using Zoom and similar kind of situation, there are probably a lot of them in the same age group as your mom. Well, apparently somebody used the bathroom and there was the sound of a flushing toilet. That's now referred to as the flush heard round the world. And I haven't heard yet who exactly was. So here's these most distinguished members of our society and they're struggling with something as simple as remembering to hit mute when they do something personal or they're on zoom. So that's a really good example. Another really important dimension of this that I wanted to bring up and kind of get your perspective on as well, because we're so early in this process, speaking of inbound and I've been, you know, been around the internet and the web since the very beginning and I've seen so many changes and one of the major changes that of course has occurred is our access to data. In such a big way, data drives what so many inbound programs and capabilities do. I think we're in the beginning of a major shift in data. I've also done a lot of research around data privacy and personal data on how individuals deal with this. As we try to deal with this pandemic, I think one of the things that's coming is we have to increase our ability to test, trace and track who's got the virus, who's had the virus, et cetera. We're in the middle of this big experiment where big parts of the country are trying to go back to work, but we don't have that capability yet. Google and Apple have announced that their devices can communicate, and we hear about new apps now being launched that are supposed to provide this capability. Well, I suspect that people, in order to trust this process of gathering all this data to manage the virus, are going to have to be very confident that that data is protected in a whole different kind of way. If that happens, does that mean new regulations are going to come into effect, new practices, new principles around how we gather and use data and are those practices and principles now and probably going to be a lot more strict, are they going to apply to the data that we acquire for marketing purposes, for inbound marketing purposes? And so what does that future look like? And so it's really difficult to predict where that's going to go, but that's something I'm really keeping a close eye on to see what kind of data requirements are going to be needed. What influence is it going to have on all the other data that we have out there right now? And, you know, then I think it also begs the question of is the data that we have now on our customers that we use so widely in inbound marketing, is that data still valid? Is the world changing enough that we're going to have to relearn some of that because people's buying patterns or their preferences or their economics have changed? So there's some big issues at work that we're looking at. Kathleen: Oh, I, I totally agree with you. I think there's absolutely a heightened awareness around data now, especially health data as you pointed out. Interestingly, I think businesses and marketers in particular are having to rethink the whole notion of personalization and tracking because so much of it was done based on IP addresses, corporate IP addresses, which, with everybody working from home, you lose the ability to track that way. Not to mention then the whole topic of accessibility. You know, when you have people who are visually or hearing impaired, who might have been able to physically come into a business in the past more easily now really can't. There's always been this requirement that websites be built in a way that's accessible. But so few businesses have really done it. I just think it's going to happen on so many fronts that we have no idea the tidal wave of change that's going to hit us. Bob: Yeah, I agree. And I think one of the key aspects of this that we're trying to implement and that's really a lot of what we're trying to stay on the forefront of is to figure out ways to track all of this, to stay in touch with these people, to learn, you know, individuals in businesses. There are so many ways that individual businesses are trying to adapt. Now businesses are coming up with some very creative ways of reacting to this. And then, you know, how our individual lives are changing and you know, how are we going to keep our fingers on the pulse of everything that's going on. And there's, again, so many dimensions to this. So from a research standpoint, there's a lot that we need to pay attention to, and a lot of new tools and methods and approaches that we have to put in place in order to continue this relearning process. And again, it's what kind of new experiences are going to be required to help people that maybe have never used Zoom before that are now going to have to deal with new apps on their phones because they're going to be tracking health data or you know, they're not working in an office anymore. They're working at home and what does that mean about their whole set of digital experiences that they have to deal with? So being able to relearn it, retrack it, gather all the data that's required, create all the new experiences -- that's what we're trying to stay in front of and trying to help other companies and individuals figure out how to do that as well. How are companies changing user experience in response to the Coronavirus? Kathleen: Well, there's no doubt that the changes, it's not just coming, it's already started. So I'm curious to dive into some specifics. What are some, some specific things that you have seen or worked with? I know you probably can't talk about specific clients and what you're doing for them, but, in generalized terms, can you share any specific examples of things that have had to change already in order to adjust user experiences to the new environment? Bob: Yeah, so there's a lot going on out there right now. So again, being able to understand, first of all, who is your audience and how is that changing? So who are these individuals? What kind of things are they dealing with? I think it's important to make the distinction between whether you're talking to B2B or B2C, because those are different types of dynamics. There's a lot of business and instructional and operational changes that organizations have to deal with as far as how to go remote. So in this process of staying in touch with your customers and learning what they're up to, how are you going to manage your workforce? How are you going to manage whoever your teams are as you go through that process? I think there's also a tendency to want to stay in touch with the larger trends out there. So what's happening, you know, socially and politically, economically? There's money available from the government and how are you going to get access to that and how are your customers and your clients getting access to that and how does that change what you might be doing with them? An example that I can name, where we actually did a pretty massive business transformation process, maybe it's helpful in this context to give you an example of the kinds of things that we've done that will need to evolve but that are still very sound practices. So a few years ago I did a study for Deluxe Corporation.This was actually in the midst of the great recession. So they were in the process of doing a pretty major business transformation and their business is very much about financial documents and checks and related types of products. We did what was called an omni-channel business assessment, and this was something that took place over a couple of years. We looked at a number of different touch points. The reason it's called Omni channel is because we look at a variety of different ways that they interact with customers. So we looked at email, we looked at web, we looked at their call center, we looked at all of their print programs and we also assessed their direct sales force. This was a combination of both B2B and B2C. The problem with just looking at any one of those is, any one customer can touch multiple aspects of their business. Somebody can pick up a catalog and interact with that and then they may find a phone number and then dial the number and talk to somebody in the call center. They may get an email message with that, which then sends them to a website. So there's all sorts of aspects of inbound marketing involved with this. There's probably a few outbound aspects as well. And so long story short, over a couple of years, we assessed all of those different touch points and made sure that the overall experience was effective, that people could find their way around that, the pathways from one aspect of it to another were smooth, that the messaging was consistent, and that the people that different aspects of that you could hand a customer off effectively from one, one part to another. At the end of the day we were able to drive over $3 million of new business to their top line by optimizing all that. And this was in the midst of the great recession when things were financially very challenging. So that type of approach I think is going to be a really important, that sort of omni-channel, multi touchpoint approach is going to be really useful, really important as we enter this new world. Because in a lot of ways, all of those different touch points are going to be changing and evolving for businesses. And if you don't pay attention to all of them, you won't have the big picture of what's really going on and the different journeys and pathways that customers might be taking in interacting with your business. How to get started Kathleen: So where can companies get started? How do they begin? You know, if somebody is listening to this right now and they're thinking, okay, things are going to need to change. We don't maybe know how much permanent change that it's going to be, but obviously things need to change. How do they begin to wrap their heads around this and, and begin to figure out what's the right approach? Bob: I think you have to start, I think a lot of cases with where you are. So what do you know now about who your buyers, your prospects, your customers, your users? You have to start with them. If you haven't already, it's important to begin to develop some sense of their story, their narrative, and again, who they are, what they're challenged with, where do they live and work? Are they still in an office? Are they still in their store? Is that whole work environment now changing? How they make buying decisions -- is that still the same or how is that evolving? So you have to start by understanding what are those stories, those narratives, those journeys that people are going through. And there's a variety of ways to do that. There are a lot of a very effective tools out there right now because the demand for doing a lot of this remotely is increasing pretty rapidly as you can imagine. So you know, if you go out there and look, there's a lot of different ways that you can interact with these customers and gather a lot of information and survey them or really understand who they are and what type of interactions that they're dealing with. So once you have a sense of who they are, those journeys, those personas, those narratives about who they are, then it's a process of understanding. Again, what experiences do you need to put in front of them? Are those web experiences or those phone experiences? Are they mobile? Are they on an app? What are all the ways that you need to interact with them so that they can understand your business and what you offer? Do an inventory of all of your touch points, and certainly inbound marketing is a key part of that as well, and begin to measure how much business you're getting through those different channels and begin to put in place ways to actually understand and observe how they interact with those experiences. You're going to want to do this on an ongoing basis. This is a process and not an event. You want to make sure that over time you can start to identify what are some trends that are going on and begin to track those trends. Again, there are a lot of different ways and approaches to evaluate mobile experiences and a lot of different ways to evaluate in person or desktop or web based experiences. So there's a lot of different approaches and tools that are available to do that. Tools for doing audience research Kathleen: So you mentioned starting by learning more about your audience and your customers. Are there any particular tools that you've worked with that are favorites of yours? I imagine there are some that probably are better for larger companies with bigger budgets and some that are better for smaller guys with smaller budgets. Any, you know, sort of list of your favorite tools? Bob: Yeah, so there are various tools out there that can do a variety of what we consider like diaries. So we actually have tools that allow people to keep track over time of how different apps or devices or interfaces work within their lives. So, understanding a day in the life or a week in the life of somebody based on having them create a diary of how they interact with your business or your apps or your website gives you a good sense of putting those things into context of who they are and what they're dealing with. So diary tools are really important. One that we use is called Dscout and we have some of our own internal tools that we use as well. Kathleen: How do you get somebody to follow through on it though? Because obviously you're asking them to spend time for you documenting how they interact with your business or your product. And I know just from experience myself and from working with other marketers that very often even just getting customers to agree to doing a 15 minute phone call or filling out a survey can sometimes be a battle. How have you found is the best way to get people to comply and follow through on keeping those kinds of records? Bob: We usually provide some kind of incentive. So in many cases we, they get paid for their time. Some companies, when they do this kind of research, they may provide some kind of in kind reward. So if it's a restaurant chain that's doing this kind of study, they might offer vouchers for food or something like that. It might include something simple like an Amazon gift card. And so usually we try and incent people, give them some kind of reward for whatever time they invest. And that can vary based on how much time you want them to participate, and how involved you want them to be. But that seems to be the best way. Kathleen: Any particular approaches that work well for B2B companies? Bob: We put quite a bit of effort into locating and recruiting the right people. So a lot of times in the recruiting phase, we have questionnaires that we put together, and we ask people about what they do and you can kind of gauge their level of interest or their level of willingness to participate in something like this. We have a lot of third party companies that we've worked with that have databases of people and companies that they've worked with. So we also have individuals that might be more inclined to want to be involved, make a contribution there and are willing to follow through on this kind of thing. How are companies adapting to the new normal? Kathleen: Got it. So I'm curious if you have any examples of specific changes that you've seen companies need to make as a result of Coronavirus and this new environment that we're living in? Bob: Yeah, so it varies a lot. So just in my own neighborhood here, I'm seeing companies become very creative. We have what used to be a cafe down the street. Because people can't go in and congregate there anymore, they've made the shift to providing produce. They obviously had suppliers that they used for doing whatever they were doing to serve their cafe. And so now they've evolved to actually using those food suppliers to providing fresh meat and cheese and produce to people in the neighborhood. And they restrict how many people can be in the store. So being able to adapt, looking at your available resources, supply chains, customer base, and being able to think of new ways, and doing a lot of this online. So now if you want something, you go online, you can order everything that you need. And the only time you need to spend physically in the store is just to go in and pick up your bag and leave. So all the ordering and payment and everything happens online. Another example is a local construction company. I have a videographer partner that I work with and he's doing work with them to take everything that they do and turn it into video. So if you want to do a remodel or if you want to do various types of home improvements, then you can go online and you can look at a lot of examples of things that they do with video. You can also take your phone and do a video walkthrough of your house and show the areas that you want to have remodeled. And then they will take that and turn it around and they'll provide another video that will describe to the homeowner exactly the steps that they're going to take and where they're going to be in the house or what they're going to do. And so the amount of time that they have to spend face to face is really minimal. There's so many examples of this, of companies figuring out how to adapt, and how to do things better, how to do things differently. Kathleen: That's really smart. Having now spent so much time in my house for the last several weeks, I would love to just have them come in and tell me what I should change in my house. Because I have found that being stuck at home through the Coronavirus, you start to see like every little maintenance project that you've ignored for so long becomes that much more in your face and annoying because you're spending so much time with it. So I imagine they're getting a lot of traction with that offer. Bob: Yeah, they are. And they'll even give you a video of when the work is actually going to occur. They'll kind of stage it out for you and say, you know, we need to be in your home on these days to do these steps. And obviously all the products and all the materials and colors and all that kind of stuff, they provide all that to make that available as well. So those are just a couple of examples of figuring out how to adapt and certainly digital and online creating those new kinds of experiences again, are going to be a critical part of how companies can do this. You know, at AnswerLab, we have offices in New York and San Francisco and in early March, like a lot of companies, we had to turn on a dime and figure out how to be remote. And so that's another aspect of this too. Depending on what your business is, you're going to have to get creative in building and managing and maintaining a remote workforce. Now obviously for some companies, this is going to be easy. Other companies, this is going to be a lot more challenging. So it varies a lot in how you might approach this and how you might go about doing that. If it would be helpful, I can share with you what we went through in this whole process of making our whole operation remote. And it's actually going quite well right now. And fortunately a lot of the companies that we work with have gone remote as well. So we've created a whole virtual culture and whole virtual operation that, right now is, is running quite smoothly. Kathleen: Oh, that's great. I think there are a lot of companies struggling with that, that weren't used to working remotely before. I've worked in places that have been almost entirely remote and there are definitely playbooks out there for how to do this and how to do it well. You just have to be willing to embrace them. It's things like being on video when you talk to other people and not everybody's ready for that, but, but it can really make a difference. Bob: Yeah. And we have what I like to say is a MacGyver kind of culture, which is, there's all these technical challenges and everybody's willing to jump in and just figure things out, trying out new tools, trying to figure out new ways of interacting with our clients. How do we share information? How do we conduct research? How do we do a lot of in person workshops and brainstorming sessions and, you know, how do you replicate that kind of team spirit and that kind collaboration interaction when you have to do it all through a computer screen? There are actually a lot of really creative ways to do it. So figuring it out, just jumping in with both feet, getting everybody involved, creating a culture of making it happen, is really important. Kathleen: Yeah. I think the same challenge is really facing the events industry. I've been parts of lots of calls with people who've been talking about how they used to hold in person events, conferences, et cetera, and now we're going to try to do them virtually. Let's not just make it into one long webinar. Let's try and capture some of that same feeling you get when you're there in person in a new way online. It's a similar challenge Bob: Yeah. And that's, that's another example of it. Entirely new excited experiences that we're going to have to figure out. I mean, there's so many large events. You know, before I got into podcasting, I used to do a lot of teaching and speaking at conferences and, you know, we have to completely rethink that now. And those are a whole new set of experiences that we're all going to have to figure out how to create. How to validate that they work and people are getting what they want out of them? And then we're gonna have to figure out how to participate in them and, and make them successful. What are some things you can do now to prepare your business for the future? Kathleen: Yeah. Well if there's a marketer or a business owner listening and they're thinking, okay, I need to focus on this for myself. Do you have like two or three key pieces of advice for them that they should really focus on in the next couple of weeks? Bob: So are you thinking about the whole process of going remote or the whole process of figuring out what this new digital world is gonna look like? Kathleen: The latter. Bob: I think a couple of things that people need to do is they need to figure out what are the ways that they're going to stay in touch with their customers. Who are your buyers, your purchasers, your prospects? How are you going to develop longterm connections with them as they evolve, as they adapt to what their new world is going to look like? And then to figure out how to put your business, whatever product or service you're offering, how are you going to evolve that along with them to stay relevant, to make sure that you're still something that they're going to need and be willing to pay for? Whatever those businesses and those individuals are going through, whatever is changing in their lives, that's going to determine how your business needs to evolve to stay with them. So number one, you need to figure out how you're going to maintain those connections and do that relearning that's necessary. And then the second part of it is, what kinds of experiences are going to be required? And of course a lot of those experiences are going to be virtual, digital, online. Does that mean you're going to need a new kind of app in order to communicate with them? Does that mean you're going to have to now, like with the example of the construction company or you're going to have to start developing new types of media, like video or audio, are you going to have to create new ways of selecting and ordering your products? Does that mean a new eCommerce system? So figure out who they are, where they're going, what they're up to, what they're experiencing, and then decide how you're going to create the right kind of virtual digital experiences that are going to be relevant and important to them and how you're going to make sure all that plays together. That's probably the most important thing right now because it's changing rapidly and now's the time to start relearning. Kathleen's two questions Kathleen: Good advice. Well, shifting gears, I have two questions I ask all of my guests and I'm curious to know your thoughts on these. The first is, is there a particular company or individual that you think sets the standard for inbound marketing? Bob: Yeah, I actually, I thought about that quite a while. As I mentioned, we work with a lot of the big brands, you know, Facebook and Amazon and Google and FedEx and they have obviously some great examples there. But another company that I worked with for a long time is actually a fairly small operation. They're based here in Colorado, and the leader is called Jeff Walker and he's in charge of something called Product Launch Formula and years ago, he developed an inbound system that allows you to go out and find a target audience and interact with them and provide them a lot of valuable content and draw them into your product or service through really effective content marketing. He does a lot of books and courses and affiliate programs and video and email and stuff like that. He does a lot of the things that work well. I think the number one thing that stands out for me though is so many organizations and companies that I see online are using his system, which to me is the greatest testimony. So you can tell your story through PR or marketing programs, but nothing speaks like success and the number of organizations and people and platforms out there that have adopted his model. I think if you look at a lot of the inbound programs now, they actually use a lot of the principles that he developed probably decades ago. So he's one that I pointed to it because he's had such, such a big influence on the whole digital and virtual marketing world. Kathleen: That's a great example. I'll definitely have to check that one out. Second question, marketers always talk about how difficult it is to stay abreast of the rapidly changing digital landscape. I think the conversation we just had is a perfect example of that. How do you personally stay up to date and keep yourself educated? Bob: Well, podcasts is certainly a big one. I listened to a lot of them. I listen to them pretty constantly. I do a lot of reading. LinkedIn is a big source for me as well. I do a lot in networking, so I learn from people and I get a lot of great information off of LinkedIn just from what's posted there in the form of learning and articles and also, another way is just really through my colleagues. I work with a lot of very talented people and they're constantly presenting new challenges and new technical things to solve. And so that, to me, is probably one of the best ways I learn is just sort of on the ground, you know, with my fingers in it and trying to figure out how to make it all work. That's probably a big one for me. Kathleen: Any particular podcasts that you really love? Bob: So I actually listen to a lot of historical podcasts. I'm also a big fan of Sam Harris. Right now I've been listening to a lot of podcasts on LinkedIn about LinkedIn to figure out how to do better as we now have to do a lot more things virtually. And we don't have to do as much face to face and really trying to get geared up for LinkedIn. I actually listened to a very interesting historical podcast yesterday about pandemics and putting all of this into context. It was very interesting to kind of see the big picture over history. Probably one of the big takeaways there is that there are a lot of people who hope we can get back to normal and I think they're thinking of the old normal, but we have to let go of the old normal because it's gone. We're looking at a new one and we have to figure out what that means. Kathleen: Yeah. It's amazing how quickly things can change, isn't it? How to connect with Bob Kathleen: Well this has been so fascinating and I think you're doing really interesting work with a lot of really interesting companies. If somebody is listening to this and they want to connect with you online or learn more, ask a question, what's the best way for them to do that? Bob: Certainly LinkedIn. So look up Bob Barry. That's B E R R Y on LinkedIn. And again, I'm associated with AnswerLab and with ItsTheUsers also. You can go to my homepage at inbound.itstheusers.com. You know what to do next... Kathleen: Awesome. All right. I'll put that link in the show notes. If you're listening and you liked what you heard today or you learn something new, I would really appreciate it if you would go to Apple podcasts and leave the podcast a five star review. That helps us get found by new listeners. And if you know someone who's doing great inbound marketing work, tweet me @workmommwork, because I would love to make them my next guest. Thank you so much for joining me this week, Bob. Bob: Kathleen, thank you very much. Good luck, so they say.
FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Praising the Positive Guest: Barbara Rainey From the series: Letters to My Daughters (Day 2 of 2) Bob: Barbara Rainey has some advice for wives. She says, when you're husband messes up—and, by the way, he will—when it happens, how you respond may determine whether he learns anything from his mistake or not. Barbara: If you rail on him, and if you criticize him, and you tell him how stupid it was that he made that decision, he may not learn the lesson that God wanted for him; and he may have to repeat it again. The best thing that a wife can do is trust God, even when it's hard, and ask God to use it for good in their life and that God would use it to grow him in that area where he just blew it royally. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, April 28th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. The words you say have profound power in your marriage relationship. We'll examine that subject with Barbara Rainey today. Stay tuned. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. Have you ever stopped to just ponder who you would be: (A) if you had been single all your life or (B) if you'd married somebody other than Barbara? Dennis: Yes; I guess I have because I tried to marry a young lady from SMU before Barbara and I started dating. Bob: You proposed? Dennis: She didn't want to marry me. No, no. It wasn't at that point. Bob: It was clear enough that you didn't— Dennis: But there was a DTR—a “define the relationship.” Bob: Yes. Dennis: How she defined it and how I defined it—[Laughter]—“Thumbs down, baby!” Bob: Okay. Dennis: “Thumbs down!! You're out of here!” [Laughter] 2:00 It was good because—it was okay because I wasn't in search of a myth. I wanted a real relationship with a real person. Back to the previous part of the question, though, Bob: “Have I ever thought about who I would be if I hadn't married Barbara and was single?” I have. I don't visit that picture very often because that's a horror film. [Laughter] Bob: Pretty ugly; huh? [Laughter] Dennis: She's laughing really hard because she knows what happened behind the curtain. [Laughter] Bob: Are you saying, “Amen,” to that? Is that what— Barbara: No, I just think that's funny that he said it would be a horror film because I don't think it would be that bad. Dennis: Well, I don't know what you would compare marriage to—that teaches you how to love, that instructs you in how to sacrifice for another person, to care for, to cherish, to nourish, and to call you away from yourself and force— 3:00 —I mean, if you're going to do marriage God's way, it is the greatest discipleship tool that has ever been created in the history of the universe. It demands that both a husband and a wife pick up their cross, follow Christ, deny themselves, and ask God, “Okay, God, what do You want me to do in this set of circumstances?” Bob: And that's true. It works both ways—for husbands and wives—but our focus this week is on the responsibility a wife has—the privilege she has / the assignment she has—from God to be the helper that He's created her to be. Barbara, we're talking about some of the themes that are found in your book, Letters to My Daughters, which is just out. We're getting a lot of great feedback from women who have gotten copies of this book and started reading it. Some women recoil at the idea that they're called to be helpers—it sounds demeaning to them. Your book affirms that it's a noble thing that God is calling wives to. 4:00 Barbara: It is a very noble assignment that God has given us. It's equally noble, I think, to the calling that God has put on a man's life too. What makes it even better is that, together, marriage is a high and holy calling—it says that in Scripture. It also says that it's a mystery. I think that's the part that we wish God hadn't said about it because it would be nice if it was a little bit more black and white / more obvious. But God says it is a mystery. God is an artist / God is an author—God didn't make robots. So figuring this out—this uniqueness / this relationship that Dennis and I have that's unlike anybody else's relationship on the planet—just as your marriage with Mary Ann is unlike anybody else's on the planet—the ingenuity of God to create these little duos all over the planet that represent Him / that are a picture of Christ and the Church—all of that mystery is profound and baffling. 5:00 We wish sometimes that marriage was a whole lot easier, but it illustrates that marriage is a very high and noble calling. We think it is drudgery / we think it's dispensable—and it's not. Dennis: Yes. In the book that Barbara has written, called Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife, you quote Mike Mason. Speaking of mysteries, he wrote a book called The Mystery of Marriage. This comes from that book—he says this: “Love convinces a couple that they are the greatest romance that has ever been, that no two people have ever loved as they do, and that they will sacrifice absolutely anything in order to be together.” Then I love the conclusion to the statement. It says, “Then marriage asks them to prove it.” Well, that's what's at stake. You've got this noble relationship that wasn't created by man—it was created by Almighty God. 6:00 His image is stamped all over a marriage that seeks to follow His blueprints for what He wants us to do. He's trying to teach us how to love—how to love sacrificially / how to give up our lives on behalf of another. You're never going to be able to do it if you try to have it your way. Bob: I would love for you to expand on something that I just had to stop and ponder for a second. You said what a wife believes about her husband is the starting place for everything she says or doesn't say about her husband. Barbara: Yes. Bob: And what you believe about Dennis is the starting place for everything you say or don't say about him. Barbara: Correct. Bob: Unpack that for me. Barbara: Well, let me explain something about photography that I think will help answer your question for you. Anybody, who has ever used a 35mm camera that has a lens that you turn so you can focus, understands the principle that the person who is holding the camera chooses what's going to be in that image. 7:00 You can choose a broad panorama and you can get as much in that frame as you can get, or you may choose to tighten that zoom lens and focus on somebody's eyes only. You've got great choice, as the photographer, in what you're going to get in that lens of the camera. And the same is true in marriage. I have complete control over what people know about my husband. If I'm talking about Dennis and I talk about his faults, or I talk about how crummy it is that he just doesn't ever do this and I think it's terrible that he doesn't ever do that, anybody who hears that description that I just made of him will think of him that way. When they think of him, they're going to remember that. But, on the other hand, if I choose to leave that out of the description, and instead, I choose to describe him for my friends, or my small group, or wherever I am talking about him, and I say: “You know, one of the things that I appreciate about Dennis is that he really makes our family a priority. 8:00 “Yes, he travels. Yes; sometimes he has to say late and work / sometimes he is gone on the weekends, but I know that his heart is to make our family a priority.” That's focusing the lens of my camera on what is good and what is right about my husband. If he knows that I'm saying that about him, he's going to want to live up to that expectation. Bob: So some wives will hear you say that and say: “You want me to airbrush my husband. You want me to just brush away and pretend like all those flaws that are there just don't exist and just pretend like he's better than he is.” Barbara: Okay. And I would say to her: “How does God see you? Is God pointing out to you the hundreds of things that you do wrong every day? Um, I don't think so. He's very gentle and very gracious, and He shows us one thing at a time that we do wrong.” 9:00 I just think: “Okay, you want to call it airbrushing? Alright, I'll take that—it may be airbrushing—but I would rather focus on what he does right than what he does wrong because—when I focus on what he does wrong, and I have done that—all I can see are the things he does wrong. They grow and they just become these huge things. I become obsessed with everything that's wrong and everything he's not doing that's right. And that's not fun! I don't like that about me! “I don't want him to be focusing on all my weaknesses and all my flaws. I don't want him talking about my weaknesses and flaws to other people because I don't like them / I don't want to be known for what is wrong with me. I want to be known for what I do well and what I do right. So the same is true for him. So, yes, I airbrush it—I don't talk about the things that he does wrong, or his weaknesses, or his flaws. That's for him to deal with before the Lord. That's not my business—that's his business.” Bob: You're not living in denial about those things? Barbara: No; no. 10:00 Dennis: That doesn't mean that the airbrush doesn't get turned off at a point. Bob: And the flaws are exposed? [Laughter] Barbara: Well, or that I talk about them with him from time to time. Dennis: Yes. Bob: And you're not being unrealistic about the nature of your relationship. Barbara: No. Bob: But I think what I hear you saying—and this goes back to where we started—what a wife says about her husband is going to begin with what she's thinking about her husband. Barbara: Correct. Bob: And she can choose— Barbara: Correct. Bob: —whether to dwell on all of his flaws or whether to set her mind on those things that are his virtues. Barbara: Yes. Bob: And every husband's got at least a couple of them; right? Barbara: Well, if he doesn't, why did you marry him? I mean, all of us got married because we admired something about this man that we fell in love with. So focus on those things. I remember, years and years ago, when we were in a new church that we were a part of—it was a fairly small church—and we had this community group of other couples that we met together every couple of weeks. 11:00 I remember standing in a small group of maybe three or four of us. This wife started talking about her husband—she was talking negatively about her husband. I'll never forget that uncomfortable feeling that all of us in that little, tiny circle felt. We just felt kind of: “Ouch! Oooh! That hurts! I don't know that I want to hear that about your husband.” And then, out of the corner of my eye, I saw him, standing not that far away. I think he had heard what she said. I have just never forgotten that picture, even though it was probably 30 years ago / maybe 20 years ago—but it was a long time ago—because I saw what the power of her words did. I saw what it did to me—it made me, as a listener, uncomfortable. It made me wonder about him, as a man. And then, when I saw that he heard, it was like an ice pick to his heart. I realized how powerful our words are as wives. 12:00 So my whole intention in what I share in this chapter about this is to help women understand that your words are very, very significant. Those who hear them are going to be influenced by what we say. Dennis: There's a proverb that is so applicable here—Proverbs 18:21: “Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and those who love it will eat its fruits.” Barbara: Yes. Dennis: So you literally have the opportunity to use your tongue like a paint brush to paint a positive picture, or like an ice pick to tear another person down. To the woman, who is listening to us—or for that matter, a man, who may be listening in right now—if you're a critical person / if you're negative, you need to ask God to do a work in your soul. 13:00 You know, no one wants to be in the corner of an attic with a cranky woman or a cranky man, who is bitter, and negative, and all they can do is find fault. That's not who you want to grow old with. What you need to ask—you need to ask God to do a work in your soul and to help release you from being critical of your husband or your wife and find a way to begin to focus on—as Barbara is calling women to do here—to focus on that which is positive in their spouse / why you married them in the first place and what you like about them. Brag on your wife / brag on your husband in front of the kids. Bob: One of the things Dennis has shared over the years—you've heard him say it—your belief in him has been massive in terms of his confidence in doing what God's called him to do. I'm just wondering: “Was that just natural to express belief in him? Was that just something that came instinctively to you; or were you conscious and deliberate about saying: ‘I need to verbalize to him. I need to express confidence in him'?” 14:00 Barbara: The answer is, “Yes,” to both because I think most of us women, when we first get married, we marry this guy because we believe in him—we think he's the greatest. Most women marry with those thoughts, those feelings, and those emotions. I think that what happens is—when we do get disillusioned, and we do find discouragements, and we butt heads because we're different—that belief can come down with it. Then, that's when it becomes a choice. In the beginning, it was really easy for me to believe in him because I just did believe in him—that's why I married him. But then there come those times, farther into the relationship, when belief becomes a choice. So rather than expressing—and it's not that I don't express fear / it's not that I don't express anxiety because I express plenty of that—but the bottom line is: “In the end, no matter what, I believe in you. I believe that God is at work in your life and in our marriage. I believe that God is going to see us through this, and I'm going to be with you there to the bitter end.” 15:00 Dennis: And what I'd want a woman to know is—that no matter how competent and confident a man looks, whether he's young or whether he's older / it does not matter—there isn't a man, within the reach of my voice right now over the radio across the country, who doesn't need his wife's steady and certain words of affirmation and belief. He needs it. I don't care if he says nothing to you when you say it. The words are sinking and soaking into his soul because there are not that many people in a lifetime—in fact, I'd ask the question, “Is there anyone who goes a lifetime with you and who believes in you all the way to the end?” The answer is, “Who would it be?” Bob: Yes. Dennis: “Who's going to do that?” That's the nature of marriage! 16:00 When you say, “I take you ‘til death do us part, for better or for worse, in riches and in being poor,”—wow! It's the pay-off! Barbara: Yes. Dennis: It's not always easy. We're not trying to paint some kind of rosy picture here, but it is a necessity. Bob: There has to have been a time—and I don't know if it will come to mind immediately for you or not—but a time when you were facing a decision and you were thinking, “I think we should do this.” And Dennis was thinking, “No, I think we should do this.” And you said: “Okay, I'm going to trust you. I'm going to follow you”; and it turned out that it would have been better off if you'd have done it your way. I'm just wondering—for a wife in that situation, where she says, “I think this is the right thing to do,” and the husband says, “We're going this way,” and they go down a dead-end and the wife finds herself, in that moment, thinking, “If he'd have just listened to me, we'd be in a lot better shape right now than we are!”— 17:00 —what does she do in that moment? Barbara: Well, I can't think of a specific time; but there have been times like, for instance, driving in the car, when he would choose to go one way and I was thinking, “I don't think that's the right way!” And, sure enough, it wasn't. That hasn't happened very often, but it has happened. I remember one time, early in our marriage, when we were discussing a financial decision. I don't remember thinking it was a bad decision at the time; but it was a bad decision, and it cost us financially. Regardless, it doesn't really matter—if it's a big thing or a small thing—because the choice is still the same in the end for a wife; that is: “Even when he makes bad decisions—and he will / when he decides to do things that will cost you—and he will—will you still believe in him? Will you still trust God? Will you put your faith in God's sovereignty that God can turn this into good in his life?” 18:00 Maybe that's exactly what he needed to experience to grow in the way God wanted him to grow. If you rail on him, and if you criticize him, and you tell him how stupid it was that he made that decision, he may not learn the lesson that God wanted for him; and he may have to repeat it again. The best thing that a wife can do is trust God, even when it's hard, and ask God to use it for good in their life and that God would use it to grow him in that area, where he just blew it royally, because men are going to make big mistakes. It's how we respond to that mistake that will make the difference in whether he benefits from it or he can't benefit from it because he's been beat up by his wife. Dennis: This is not an easy message for a lot of listeners to hear, but I just want you to comment on why you decided to write a book that is called Letters to My Daughters to call them to the art / the biblical art of being a wife because you're calling them to a high standard. 19:00 Barbara: Yes. Dennis: These are our daughters and our daughters-in-law. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: Why did you want to do that? Barbara: Well, I think our culture has lost the vision for what marriage can be—what it was intended to be. Yes, we have all seen countless examples of marriage done the wrong way, but that doesn't mean marriage is broken. It means the people are broken who are in it. I want the next generation to understand that marriage is really worth working on—it is transformative, it is redemptive, it is holy. There are so many good things about marriage; but we don't see those good things, commonly, in our culture—we see all the negatives. I tell the story of: “What would it be like if you went to the Louvre Museum in Paris, with all these magnificent art works? And what if, while you were standing in line to get your ticket, there was an earthquake? 20:00 “And after you got your ticket, you walked in and half of these masterpieces were lying on the floor. There were still half of them on the wall / there were still statues and all of these magnificent things around—what would your eyes be drawn to? Your eyes would be drawn to the tragedy, to the loss, to the broken pieces lying all over the floor.” I think that's a picture of our culture. We see all of these wrecked marriages—we see these abused women, we see these lost men, we see the damaged children—and we just think: “Marriage is hopeless. Why should I even try?” What I want to do in this book is say: “Look at what's on the wall! Look at what God has said. Look at what God has designed. That is our goal. Don't get distracted by the broken pieces. It's tragic, it's wrong, it's sad; but the institution of marriage is still worthy. It's still worth striving for. 21:00 God didn't make a mistake when He made marriage. We're the ones who are messing it up. Dennis: And Bob, I think about what FamilyLife is talking about all this year in our 40th anniversary of doing ministry—calling people back to their anniversary and back to their commitment—around the whole concept of the Proud Sponsor of Anniversaries™. What Barbara is challenging people with is—just because people have failed, don't give up on what the Bible—the transcendent beauty and model of the Scriptures and what it's calling us to be, as human beings—to call us away from our selfishness, to call us to the biblical model of following Jesus Christ, and training our kids to do the same. I'm going to tell you something—there's a lot on the line in every marriage that is listening to us right now. Generations are on the line— 22:00 —your children! The best picture that they'll ever see, apart from the Scriptures, of what a real marriage ought to be is your marriage. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: Even in its imperfections, it can display what Barbara is talking about—the nobility / the grandeur. Your kids will see something—that they are going to say: “You know what? Mom and Dad could have ended it, but they didn't! They experienced the redemption of Jesus Christ. I want what they've got! When I get married, I want one of those! And I'm not going to settle for anything less.” The way they get it is by absorbing your teaching about Jesus Christ, following Him, and deciding to make their parents' faith their own. But that means the parents need to have it first. Bob: Well, and I would say that part of the way they get it, too, is by aligning themselves with God's design for us—as men and women / as husbands and wives—the unique assignment God has for us. 23:00 It's one of the issues you're addressing, Barbara, as you talk to young wives about what it means for them to be godly wives. I'd just encourage our listeners—get a copy of Barbara's book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. This is a book that we're making available this month to folks who make a donation to help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today. You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com—make an online donation. You can call 1-800-FL-TODAY—make a donation over the phone; or you can mail a donation to us and request a copy of Barbara's book, Letters to My Daughters. We're happy to send it out to you as a “Thank you,” for your support of the ministry of FamilyLife. We couldn't do what we do if it weren't for folks, like you, helping to support this ministry. So “Thanks,” in advance, for whatever gift you're able to help with. We're happy to send you Barbara's new book, Letters to My Daughters, when you get in touch with us—again, online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-358-6329; that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” 24:00 Now, tomorrow, we're going to hear Barbara and a number of other women interacting in a panel conversation that took place a few years ago with a large crowd of women. You were talking about God's design for you, as a woman, as a wife, and as a mom. We'll hear that dialogue tomorrow. I hope our listeners can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Facing the Storms Guest: Barbara Rainey From the series: Letters to My Daughters (Day 1 of 1) Bob: To be the woman and the wife that God created you to be, you have to know how to walk by faith on the good days and on the dark days. Here's Barbara Rainey. Barbara: Most people who have been through suffering—whether it's shallow, small things or really deep, tragic things—can say, on the other side, “I didn't enjoy it / I didn't like it, but I knew God better as a result.” I've heard so many people say that. I would say it's true about us too. We've learned more about God in the valleys than we have on the high places and hills in the sunshine. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, April 11th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We're going to spend time today exploring how a husband and wife can draw closer together and become one when they're walking in the valley in the path of suffering. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. Anybody who has ever been to one of our Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways knows that, on Friday night, as we are getting underway, we spend some time talking about the common potholes that derail/destabilize marriage relationships. There are some things that are pretty standard / pretty common that can cause a marriage to wobble at high speeds. Dennis: And we begin the conference with a message that is really about five threats to your oneness—five threats to your marriage / five threats to your marriage going the distance over your lifetime. 2:00 Bob: One of those threats is a failure to anticipate the unexpected trials that come into a marriage. It's not a question of whether unexpected trials will come into a marriage; but “How do you respond when they do?” because all of us are going to hit them; aren't we? Dennis: Well, if you think about it—the vows are built / the traditional vows: “…in sickness and in health / in financial success and in also being poor.” I mean, the basis of what we promise, when we establish the marriage covenant, is that we're going to take the storm head-on. We don't know what it will be; but we're pledging to one another to not quit, but to keep on loving, keep on believing, and make our marriage go the distance. Bob: And we are taking some time this week to talk with your wife Barbara. Welcome back to FamilyLife Today. Barbara: Thank you, Bob. 3:00 Bob: We're going to talk about some of those valleys and dark places that the two of you have walked together in 40-plus years of marriage and how you've not quit in the midst of that. Dennis: And what Barbara has done is—she has taken the past—almost ten—years to complete a book to wives called Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife that is designed to be what it is. It's an older woman stepping into the life of a younger woman with sage advice / with seasoned advice—with the advice that comes after four decades of marriage. I love what you've done here because, honestly, there are a good number of books out there about being a wife—and there is a lot of fluff / it's kind of “How to…”—but not really tied into the reality of what women are facing today. The way this book is constructed—you end it with this subject that Bob's talking about here—the subject of suffering. 4:00 I guess I'd have to ask you: “Is that because of what you and I have been through in 40/ almost 44 years of marriage?—because we have been through some dark valleys together. Barbara: Well, that's why it's in there; because it has been an integral part of our marriage relationship. It's in there because I think most brides / most young women get married with some of what I call “fairy tale theology.” They get married thinking that: “Everything is going to be great for us. We're not going to have difficulties. Yes, there will be some uncomfortable moments, but we're not going to really have hard stuff. We're going to be great. We love each other, and everything's going to be great.” For those who are Christians—like you and I were when we got married—we also start our marriages out thinking: “You know, we believe in God. If we do it God's way, it's going to all be good. We're not going to have any hard things.” That was how I started our marriage—thinking: “A plus B equals C. 5:00 “If I obey God and I do these things that are in the Bible, then God, therefore, will give us an easy, nice life.” Bob: So, do you have a new equation now if it's not “A plus B equals C”? What would you say to a young wife, who says, “If it's not that, what is it?” Barbara: There's a lot of algebra! [Laughter] Bob: Some calculus—[Laughter]—a little geometry— Barbara: And I don't know algebra very well; so I can't even give you the formula! [Laughter] Dennis: And we're laughing, but it's the hard stuff of life. This is a broken world. There is a heaven, and it's not here / it's not now. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: God came, in the person of Jesus Christ, to give us an abundant life now and help us face these hardships; but it's like the funeral you and I participated in earlier this year—a dear couple that we love greatly, who buried the body of their 15-year-old son. It's unthinkable— Barbara: Yes. Dennis: —the grief of losing a child! 6:00 No couple—standing at the altar, about to say their vows to each other—can even fathom the grief, the loss, the agony, the darkness of the valley. And yet, there are a lot of our listeners—who are in it right now, or who are about to go in it, or who have been in the valley and they've come out the other side—they're nodding their heads. Bob: And one of the things I've heard you say before, Barbara—is knowing that those valleys are ahead—you don't know when they're coming / you don't know where they are—it could be months / it could be years before you head into one—but the time to prepare your marriage and the time to get ready to walk through the valley is not when you find yourself in it—it's while you're still walking in the sunlight. Barbara: Yes. And I think that it also illustrates that the importance of building your marriage today because we don't know how many days we have. Our days are all numbered, but we don't know what the last number is. 7:00 That reminds us that today is the day we need to focus on. Today is the day we need to live—as if it were our last, even though that's hard to do in a practical way—but we need to focus on making our marriage all it can be today. Focus on getting to know Christ today / focus on growing today so that, when those hard times do come—and they will come—because Jesus said, “In this world, you will have trouble,”—period / done—“…you will have trouble.” We don't like that / I never liked that verse—I always kind of wondered why it was even in there. It is because He's telling us the truth that we will have trouble and we will have difficulty. So the best way to prepare is to live each day on purpose and to live each day with focus and intentionality in your relationship. Dennis: You don't prepare for the storm in the middle of the storm. 8:00 I will never forget a Green Beret, who came up to me at one of our Weekend to Remember marriage getaways, way back when we started FamilyLife years and years ago. He came up and said, “Dennis, as a Green Beret, we practice what to do in a crisis over, and over, and over again in training so that, when we were in the crisis, it was second nature / we knew what to do.” I think what people need to look at is—to look at the Bible as the training manual. We need to know how to live now in light of eternity. As a married couple, you have to know how to live together. We've been through some hard things in our family / some difficult challenges. It's true, Bob, husbands and wives do not suffer the same / they do not process grief in the same way. We're different, as male and female. I'm so glad that Barbara has this chapter in her book to coach women to know how to view suffering / how to view the valley in their marriage and not lose heart / not lose hope—but to not give up. 9:00 Bob: Sometimes in a marriage, Barbara, we are plunged into a deep valley, where it's the kind of darkness we've talked about here—burying a child or—I know, for you and Dennis—the loss of a grandchild, years ago, was one of those deep valleys. For a lot of wives, the valley is not as deep; but it's kind of a shallow, prolonged valley. You wouldn't necessarily even call it suffering, but it's just a general discontentedness about life and where you are. It drags on you every day. If a wife is in that moment, where she's saying, “This is not what I— Barbara: —“signed up for”? Bob: “Just not what I thought life was going to be.” Barbara: Yes. Bob: “It's not what I thought marriage was going to be. I thought having kids would be more fun than this.” Barbara: Yes. Bob: What does she do in that moment? Barbara: Well, first of all, I want to say that that is suffering. It's just a different kind of suffering because I think that is a common experience for many, many women. 10:00 I think a lot of us go through seasons of life, whether it's because of hormones or it's because of the season that our kids are in. I remember a season like that for me, in the late teen years, before we became empty nesters. I remember being so exhausted every single day. I think there's a cumulative effect that a lot of mothers feel—it just kind of builds—so that by the time you're in your 40s or pushing 50, there's this general fatigue with life. I think that is a kind of suffering because we do live in a broken world. That is a difficult thing to deal with because it affects everything about you—it affects your marriage, your kids that are still at home, your perception of yourself, your perception of life, your enjoyment of life. So I think that those really can be called kinds of suffering. 11:00 So the answer is--and I don't want this to sound like a pat answer because there isn't a pat answer—but I think the bottom line is: “Continuing to believe God that He is in control and that this too shall pass.” It's pulling back and looking at the big picture. I describe this as watercolor painting in my book because one of the things about creating a painting is—you come up with an initial sketch, and you've got to decide where the horizon line is, and what's going to be your focal point. Often, when you're doing a painting of any kind—and even a sculpture, although I don't do that, but I think the same principle is true with any kind of art—you have to pull back. One of the things that's important about doing a painting is—you walk six feet away and look at it / or maybe even farther—and you see the whole more clearly when you're away from it. The same is true in our lives—we need to pull back / remind ourselves of the big picture: 12:00 “God is in control. He still loves me. He's working good in my life, even though I don't see it or feel it and I don't know what the outcome is going to be. I can trust Him.” I think the message is, “Don't quit when it gets hard.” Our temptation is to want to run away when things get hard or when things get difficult—to escape from the pressure, escape from the pain, escape from whatever it is that you're feeling as a result of the suffering. But God is saying: “No. Stay there. I'm with you. I won't abandon you. I'm going to use this for good.” Dennis: And back to the motif or the illustration of watercolors. Bob, I've watched Barbara create paintings; and it's fascinating how she shows off light. You would think that would be pretty simple; but to a non-artistic person like me, it's fascinating how you use dark colors to show off the light. 13:00 What Barbara's actually talking about here is—I think that God allows the darkness—God allows the valleys / He allows the disappointments and the unmet expectations—those things to come into our lives to create some contrast that will call us to trust Him. Because, frankly, if everything went our own way,— Barbara: —we wouldn't need Him or we wouldn't trust Him. Dennis: —we wouldn't need God. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: And we could live our whole lives just being “happy.” Well, you know what? That isn't going to happen! Barbara: Right. Dennis: You're not going to be able to live “a happy life.” Bob: But I do think there are a lot of wives who—when they are not happy / they're in a prolonged season, where, “I just haven't felt happy for a while,”—they start to look around and go: “Okay, how come I'm not feeling happy? Who's the cause of this!?” [Laughter] Guess—who is the closest person there to take the blame for: “I'm not happy! It's got to be something he's doing! If he was doing his job, I'd be happy!”? 14:00 Do you think that's right? Barbara: Do I think it is right that she's thinking that? Bob: Yes. Barbara: Well, no! It's not right that she's thinking that. [Laughter] Bob: Is it accurate that she might be thinking that? Barbara: Oh, I think it's common. Bob: Yes! But it's not right. Barbara: But it's not right; yes. [Laughter] I mean, it's very easy to blame somebody else. That's one of the hard things about marriage—is that it's so easy for both of us—husband or wife—to blame the person who's right there because they're handy, and it's really easy to find fault and say, “Well, if you only…, my life would be so much better.” But that's not really what the reason is. The real reason is that God—because He's our Father, and He's a loving, kind, gracious Father / is so patient—and He's saying to us: “You need this right now. This will be for your good right now. I know you don't like it / I know it doesn't feel good, but I've got purposes and I've got plans for you. You will be glad in the end.” 15:00 Most people who have been through suffering—whether it's shallow, small things or really deep, tragic things—can say, on the other side: “I didn't enjoy it / I didn't like it, but I knew God better / I came to know Him better as a result. I wouldn't trade that for anything.” I've heard so many people say that, and I would say it's true about us too. We've learned more about God in the valleys than we have on the high places and hills in the sunshine. Dennis: I just want to read a couple of passages, just based upon all Barbara is talking about here. If you're going through a hard time, I'd like to recommend the best-seller—the Bible—and the Book of 1 Peter, which was written to a group of people, who had been scattered and who were followers of Christ. They were called the diaspora—they were scattered saints, having to represent Christ in cultures that punished them for it. Barbara: Well, they weren't just scattered—because we tend to think of scattered as they are just living in different places—but they lost homes / possessions. 16:00 I mean, they had really experienced some difficult traumas that we face today when houses burn down or we go bankrupt and we lose everything. That puts a little more context in what these people were living in. Bob: They were refugees—not just scattered—but refugees. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: So I just want to read what God wanted to say to some folks who were going through some hard times. Just listen to how God coaches and gently nudges people who are in the valley—1 Peter, Chapter 3, verse 13: “Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good? But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, but in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.” 17:00 But listen to this conclusion to this passage: “For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil.” So you hear the Scripture calling us to have the right perspective of our valley. Don't just look at it from a human perspective. Wherever you are, maybe pull out this book and read 1 Peter, Chapter 3. Then, across the page, go look at Chapter 4, verse 12 and listen to what Peter says here: “Beloved, don't be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you.” 18:00 I've got to stop there because I think we, as human beings, are really odd. We think, when we get married, there's never going to be a valley. It's in the fine print of the marriage covenant—you're going to go through testing / through trials. But listen to this—verse 13 of Chapter 4: “But rejoice insofar as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when His glory is revealed.” The Bible so calls us away from our temporary thinking / from how I'm feeling right now. It's calling you, not to live by feelings, but it's calling you to faith: “Are you going to believe that that's true?” As a couple, will you allow the things that are coming at you to bind your hearts to His—first of all to God's—but then, secondly, to one another and to not give up?—and as Barbara said, “…not quit and not toss the towel in.” We're talking to people, right now, who have secretly—or maybe verbally—threatened divorce to their spouse. 19:00 I mean, it is commonplace in our culture. But this is the biblical way to look at suffering, and the biblical way to run the race all the way to the finish line. Bob: Well, what I've heard both of you saying throughout this is—first of all: “Trials are coming; so be ready, and the way you get ready is by learning how to trust God in the sunshine so that, when you're in the valley, you've already learned what walking by faith looks like. You don't wait to get to the valley to learn.” Dennis: You don't wait ‘til the storm comes and it starts raining to go up on top of the roof to— Bob: —to fix the leak. Dennis: —to fix the leak. Bob: And then, the second thing is: “When you're in the valley and the circumstances are pressing, you have to pull back—step away from the painting, get the bigger picture, and counsel your own soul with what you know is true in the sunshine. Barbara: Yes. Bob: “Preach it to yourself in the shadow. That's how Jesus walks through that with you.” 20:00 So a wife who finds herself in a season of suffering—whether it's the mild malaise we talked about earlier, where it's just discouragement, or whether it's a significant period of suffering—she has to counsel her own soul and remind herself of what's true and hang onto that. Barbara: And she needs to realize that God wants to use the hard times for the good of her marriage. It's not just for her good or her husband's good, or for the betterment of some circumstance, but God really wants to use these difficulties to help them, as a couple / a husband and a wife, grow closer together. We suffer differently / we handle things differently, but that's part of what God wants to do to help us become more one—is for me to share what I'm feeling when we're suffering, and for me to listen to Dennis share what he's feeling or, when he doesn't share what he's feeling, to trust that God is at work in his soul. 21:00 As we go through that experience together, it bonds us together more than on days when we're not struggling. Dennis: What I'd have to say to that is—I wish, at this point, I could reach through the radio—whether it's a phone, or a computer, or your car, or in your shop / wherever you're listening—and just put an arm around you and say, “Oh, we have such a shallow view of love!” Barbara: Yes. Dennis: We think love is like the movies depict it—a couple walking off in the sunset, arm in arm, with the soft breeze, and the music swelling, and people applauding. The reality is—a lot of love is learned in the valley, where two people aren't feeling the same thing / where two people aren't finding a lot of romance because there's no room in the valley, sometimes, for romance. It's where two people learn how to really love because they meet the God of love in the valley, and they begin to understand He loves them— 22:00 —that's what they're supposed to reflect to one another. Bob: I think there are a lot of wives who are really going to be helped as they get a chance to read your reflections on how God uses suffering in a marriage relationship and in a family—how God has used it in your life as you've gone through seasons of suffering. You write about this in your new book, Letters to My Daughters. Barbara: Yes. Bob: We are making that book available this month to listeners who can support the ministry of FamilyLife with a donation of any amount. We are a listener-supported ministry. We depend on your donations to be able to continue the work of FamilyLife Today. If you can help with a donation this month, we'd like to send you a copy of Barbara's brand-new book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com—you can make a donation online if you'd like. Or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation over the phone. 23:00 Or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223. Let me just say, “Thanks,” in advance for your support of this ministry. We hope you enjoy Barbara's new book, Letters to My Daughters. We want to say, “Congratulations!” today to our friends, Wayne and Carrie Owen. They live in Sacramento, California. I lived in Sacramento for a while. In fact, I worked at the radio station where they listen to FamilyLife Today—at KFIA. The Owens have been married 29 years today—“Congratulations!” to them. If you have an anniversary coming up later this year, we'd like to help you celebrate. We will send you some text messages or emails just prior to your anniversary—just some little prompts for you to begin to get ready to celebrate your special day. We just need to know what your special day. So call us at 1-800-FL-TODAY and let us know your anniversary date. 24:00 Or you can go online at FamilyLifeToday.com and leave us your anniversary date and let us know whether you'd like those messages sent to you by email or by text message. Now, tomorrow, we want to spend time talking about how fear can affect a family. We especially want to look at blended or stepfamilies. We're going to hear from Ron Deal tomorrow with thoughts on the subject of fear. I hope you can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch—special help today from Mark Ramey. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Being His Helper Guest: Barbara Rainey From the series: Letters to My Daughters (Day 3 of 3) Bob: The Bible calls women to be helpers to their husbands; but as Barbara Rainey points out—sometimes, when you're trying to help, you're not helping. Barbara: I think, in most women's hearts, we do start out—in the early years, especially—genuinely wanting to help. It switches somewhere, along the line—to becoming a control issue, to becoming a management issue, to becoming a critical issue—where I am being his mother and not his helper. I'm being his parent and not his partner. I think that is the lesson—it's that we, as women / we, as wives, need to be aware and to recognize when it does and to say: “Oh yeah! I need to be his friend. We're peers, we're equals, we're teammates; and we can work this out together,” rather than it—letting it become this great obstacle. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, February 17th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. How can a wife be a helper to her husband? 1:00 We're going to explore that today with Barbara Rainey. Stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I had somebody share something with me a long time ago. I always thought this was interesting—they were talking about the ministry of the Holy Spirit in our life. They were saying that the word for the Holy Spirit in the Bible is the word, Paraclete. Dennis: Right. Bob: What they said was: “There's a difference between a paraclete and a parasite. A parasite is something that attaches itself to you and just sucks the life out of you.” Dennis: Right. Bob: “A paraclete is something that attaches itself to you and pours life into you.” I mean, that's always stuck with me. I've thought, “That's not only true of our relationship with the Holy Spirit—He does attach Himself to us and pours life into us—but all of our relationships tend to be parasite or paraclete relationships”; don't you think? Dennis: They do. It's interesting— 2:00 —that in the Scripture, God refers to Himself as our Helper. I think the Holy Spirit is our Helper. Bob: Yes. Dennis: He comforts us / He gives us the power to live the Christian life. Bob: Jesus said, “I will send another Helper,”—indicating that He had been the Helper. So Helper really—God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit—are all identified as “Helper.” Dennis: That's right; but if you go all the way back to the beginning of the Bible, the first use of the word, “helper,” is not referring to God but referring to the woman that God made for man. Bob: Yes. Dennis: I know, for Barbara, who joins us again on FamilyLife Today—Barbara, welcome back. Barbara: Thank you. Dennis: She's written a book that is—was first written for our daughters, as they married, and our daughters-in-law as they married our sons. One of the first sections of the book talks about the role of being a helper. You believe that's important; don't you? Barbara: I do. I think that we have come to think of helper in a more negative sense——more as a servant. 3:00 Yet, when you go back to the very beginning—as you were just talking about a minute ago—and realize that God used that term to describe the woman / to describe Eve when He made her. He called her helper before the whole thing broke down and fell apart in the Garden. It wasn't Plan B—it wasn't: “Oh, well; now, that you've made mistakes, and I'm kicking you out of the Garden, and you're going to have to start living in a different place—now, you have to be the helper,”—it was helper from the very beginning. If we really focus on that, and think about that, it means that I was made, as a female, to be a helper—I was built for that, I was fashioned for that, I was designed for that. It's not a second thought / it's not Plan B—it's not an afterthought. It's intuitive in who I am, as a female, to be helper in the same way that God is helper to us. Bob: You say, in the book—when you got married, you say, “I was eager to begin being my husband's helper; but beyond cooking for him and doing our laundry, I honestly had no idea what the concept / the assignment really meant.” 4:00 Barbara: Yes. Bob: I think there are a lot of women who, when they hear the term, “helper,”—they think, “What is it if it's not cooking, cleaning, and laundry?” Barbara: Those things are a part of what each individual couple works out—who does the cooking / who does the laundry. All of that is a creative blend of the two that are in the marriage unit. And often— Bob: Who does the cooking at your house? I'm just curious— Barbara: Well, you know, right now, he does! [Laughter] Dennis: But for the past 35 years, she did! [Laughter] Barbara: Yes. Bob: You've given— Dennis: So I've got—I've got a long time—[Laughter] Barbara: I delegated! [Laughter] Dennis: —I've got a long time to catch up in this deal. Barbara: Yes; yes. We have traded places on that one; but the point is—is that, oftentimes and through the centuries, most women have done those tasks in the marriage relationship. That isn't really what helper is all about. Helper is far greater than that—it's me completing my husband. 5:00 It's me—and who I am, and the way God made me, as a woman and as an individual—completing him, making him better than he is on his own or making him more complete / more fulfilled. It's me helping him, though the years, become all God intended for him to be. It's far more of a person-building / it's far more of a relationship-building concept than it is just tasks around the house, which is what we've relegated it to. Bob: The phrase I used—the paraclete—to attach yourself to him and pour life into him. Barbara: Yes. Bob: There really is something that a wife can—she can pour life into her husband; can't she? Barbara: Oh, absolutely. That's why I have written about it in this section—about the example that the Holy Spirit is to us because the Holy Spirit does give us life. I think, in ways that we, as women, don't realize—we give life to our husbands. I think the analogies between the two are great. Bob: You're not saying your role is to be the Holy Spirit to your husband. 6:00 Barbara: No. [Laughter] I am not to be the Holy Spirit, and convict him of sin, any more than he is to be Jesus Christ for me. But we model— Bob: But you can learn; yes. Barbara: Yes. Bob: Yes. Barbara: —he models and imitates what Christ did in His sacrifice—and I can model my helping and being a helper after what the Holy Spirit does for us. Dennis: Before we talk about what it means to truly be the helper, one of the things you believe strongly that it's not—is it's not being your husband's mother. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: Explain what you mean by that. Barbara: I think what happens is—when we women have children and we become, not just wife, but wife and mother—there are a lot of things that we do, as mother, that are helping tasks. We're constantly helping our children get dressed, we're helping learn to tie their shoes, we help them learn to read, we help them with their homework, we help them get dressed, we help them in relationship issues when they've got friends and they've got problems in elementary school, junior high, and high school. 7:00 We are very much a helper with our children, but it's an authoritative kind of helper. I'm the one in charge, and my child is to follow me. What happens so often in marriage is—that we wives forget sometimes to switch from being helper as mother to being helper as wife—and they're very different. I'm not an authority with my husband / I'm not his teacher. For me to help him as if I am his teacher and he is to be my pupil—that's backwards / that's wrong. That's not the kind of relationship that I'm supposed to have with him as a helper. Bob: And you're supposed to be able to switch gears on the fly on that kind of a deal? Barbara: Yes, I think so; but that's where it gets tricky. [Laughter] Bob: So what does it look like if it's not the kind of helper you would be with a kindergartener or a seventh grader? How is it different? Barbara: It's different because I have a peer-relationship with my husband—we are equals. I am not a peer with my child—I'm an authority with my child. That's the fundamental difference. 8:00 For instance, Dennis and I had a conversation not too long ago. I don't know if you'll remember this—but we recently remodeled our living room. We got our couch recovered—because the kids are gone, we got it recovered in a very light color fabric, which I would have never done when we were raising kids. Now, that it's just the two of us—we can handle this. Not long after we had finished the remodeling, we had gotten the couch back from being reupholstered. We were eating, and Dennis wanted to eat in the living room. He plopped down on the couch— Bob: I know where this is going. [Laughter] Barbara: —with his plate. Bob: Yes! [Laughter] Dennis: Never happened at your place; has it Bob? Bob: It wasn't spaghetti; was it? I hope it wasn't spaghetti. Barbara: No, it wasn't spaghetti—I don't know what it was. As we sat there, I'm thinking: “This isn't going to work. This isn't what I had in mind. I don't think this is a really good place to be eating our dinner.” We began—we had a conversation; and I said, “What would you think about always eating over there at the table?” He said, “I really would like to eat and watch TV some.” 9:00 Anyway, the point is that we talked through: “Where would be an acceptable place for him to eat, in the living room, where he could watch TV—watch a football game on Saturday afternoon.” We decided the couch is not where he would eat. He would eat over there in the chair—it's on a part of the carpet that doesn't stain as easily as the part in front of the couch does. Dennis: Actually, what she encouraged me to do is run— Barbara: So are you saying you don't remember it this way? [Laughter] Dennis: —run an extension cord outside and eat it in a lawn chair in front of the TV in the yard. [Laughter] Barbara: Where there is a hose! [Laughter] Bob: You didn't put a bib on him or [Laughter] say, “You sit in this chair.” Dennis: We were just talking about being a mother; were we not? Barbara: That's right; we were! Bob: That's what—so this is an illustration of how you help your husband? [Laughter] Barbara: Well, it's an illustration of how I—yes, how I help him [Laughter] eat like an adult— Dennis: We worked it out. Barbara: We did! Dennis: We worked it out, and it is okay. I do think the point is—if you listen carefully to the illustration Barbara gave, we had a discussion. Barbara: —as peers. 10:00 I wasn't telling you that you couldn't eat on the couch—I said: “Would you be willing to eat over there?” / “Could we work out a compromise?” was the gist of the conversation. Dennis: What I'd want a man to hear in the midst of this is that he has a very important assignment—to respect his wife, and her opinion, and her values, and what she's about at that point—not just do what he wants to do. Philippians 2—we've quoted that many times, here on FamilyLife Today: “…not merely looking out for your own interests but for the interests of others.” Bob: Yes. Dennis: These little confrontations we're talking about here are a clash of values. They don't have to turn out and become where the wife ends up being the mother of the husband. Bob: You tell about, how in your marriage—when you are travelling, back in the days before cell phones— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —you used to mother your husband in the airport? Barbara: Yes. You know what's interesting about this dilemma for women is—I don't think we start out with that kind of an attitude. 11:00 I think we genuinely/sincerely want to help. It just sort of evolves into a more parental attitude without even trying. For instance, in the airport, when we used to travel before cell phones, Dennis would always want to make good use of his time. He'd walk across the area to another gate—wherever there happened to be a pay phone—and he would start making phone calls. I would sit in the waiting area and watch as every last passenger boarded the plane. They were about to close the door, and he was still on the phone. Initially, I remember thinking: “He must not know that they're boarding the plane. He must have not been paying attention.” I would get up and go over, and motion at the gate, and motion at my watch. He'd go, “I know; I know.” He'd get off the phone, and we'd get on the plane. Then the next time I would do the same thing. After a while, I started to become irritated because I thought, “I have to remind him all the time.” Dennis: How many flights have we missed? Barbara: Well, that's the point! We never missed a flight because you were on the phone! [Laughter] 12:00 But initially, I genuinely thought he didn't know what time it was and that he didn't—he was so engaged in the phone call that he didn't realize they were boarding. I wanted to help so that we didn't miss the flight. Over time, it became more of a parental attitude on my part. Dennis: I was going to say—I was going to say that—parental. Barbara: It really was because I thought: ‘What's the deal? Why can't he get off the phone, and we can board with everybody else?” Then I started becoming critical. So my point is—is that I think what we struggle with, as wives, is not necessarily starting out with a condescending attitude or a parental attitude. We really, genuinely want to help from our hearts; but it just sort of goes downhill sometimes. Dennis: Let me take that, as an illustration though, and just ask this question: “How can a wife, in a situation like that, be a true helper?” The point here is—you're not going to answer that question in the heat of the moment. You do it some other time when you're not travelling. 13:00 The wife just simply says to her husband, “When everybody's boarding, what would you like me to do?” Barbara: Exactly—which is what I finally did. Dennis: “Would you like me to come over and let you know, or am I to just trust you with that?” At that point— Barbara: Yes. Dennis: —it is two peers respecting each other—and the husband feeling like he's being trusted. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: He may—as I did—he may want her help. Bob: Yes. Dennis: Okay? That's good! You're working as teammates at that point. I think, at critical times like this—we allow these little rough spots like this to become major disagreements—at which we have a big argument and it ends up ruining the trip. Bob: As I read through this part of the book, I have to confess to you that I think one of the challenges that I think a lot of wives / a lot of women struggle with is the issue of control. Barbara: Yes; definitely. Bob: “I want to be in control of my environment. I feel safer if I'm in control of things.” Barbara: No question; no question. 14:00 Bob: So this impulse to want to be a helper—sometimes is not, “I want to help my husband,”—it's: “I want to manage my husband— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —“and control my husband because I feel more comfortable.” You're waving and saying, “Everybody else is boarding,”—not because you're trying to help him—but because you're getting nervous, and you'd like to get on the plane. Barbara: Yes. Bob: And he needs to hurry up and get on there with you. Barbara: No question. Bob: It's not helping—it's controlling. Barbara:And that's why I'm saying it's a difficult thing because I think, in most women's hearts, we do start out—in the early years, especially—genuinely wanting to help. It switches somewhere, along the line—to becoming a control issue, to becoming a management issue, to becoming a critical issue—where I am being his mother and not his helper. I'm being his parent and not his partner. I think that is the lesson is that we, as women / we, as wives, need to be aware—that that shift happens—and to recognize when it does and to say: “Oh yeah; I'm being his mother, not his partner. 15:00 “I need to be his friend—we're peers, we're equals, we're teammates—and we can work this out together rather than letting it become this great obstacle. Dennis: So for wives—as they look at the subject of being a helper to their husbands—here's the question I would encourage every wife to ask her husband: “Sweetheart, how can I be a better, customized helper to you?” because I really believe, Bob, if we could somehow zoom back and look at an individual marriage through God's eyes—I believe He's made the husband and the wife for one another. He made them with differences—with unique strengths, and abilities, and weaknesses—so they need each other and so they complement each other. I think many couples can live a lifetime and never ever understand how the wife— specifically: “In what areas / how can she be a customized helper for her husband?”— 16:00 —and then take good notes at what he says. Barbara: Well, and that's what I—one of the points that I really am hoping will come across in this book to my daughters—I want them to see the beauty that God has made in marriage—that the way I help my husband is different than the way Mary Ann helps you, Bob— Bob: Yes. Barbara: —different than the way my daughters will help their husbands because my husband needs something different than you would need. That's the wonderful thing about marriage. God gave us very few rules for marriage—He gave us some guidelines to run on / some very specific things in Scripture—but He didn't give us a hundred things to do in marriage. He gave us very few. Within that wonderful definition of marriage that we get out of Scripture, there is endless ability to be creative because we are two unique people. God wants us to design a unique relationship between the two of us. 17:00 Bob: Okay; I've got two questions. The first is: “There are some wives who are hearing this and going, ‘Well shouldn't this thing work both ways? I mean, why am I the helper? Shouldn't he be the helper to me too? Aren't we supposed to help one another?'” You're talking about teammates—so you're the helper, but he's the helper too; right? Barbara: Yes; I think Dennis should answer that, but I think the real bottom line is—is that God has called men to serve. In that serving—of the husband serving the wife—that's how he helps. He's not given the title of helper, but he's given the title of servant-leader. That's how he would help his wife. Dennis: Yes, I think Barbara mentioned the key term there—servant-leader. A husband is given the title, in Ephesians 5, “head,”—he is the authority. The buck does stop with him. He has responsibility to deny himself, to love his wife as Christ loved the church, and to be—as Barbara said—a servant-leader of her and meeting her needs. I don't think a husband—in the sense of what we're talking about a wife being a helper—is to be his wife's helper. 18:00 I think he's to be—the servant, the lover, the leader, the nourisher, the cherisher of her soul, and to look out for her best interest, and her horizons, and maximize her life—but he's got a different assignment— Bob: Yes. Dennis: —with her than she has with him. Bob: Well, in fact, I was meeting with a group of guys recently. We were talking about this designation of servant-leader. We all kind of agreed that maybe it would be better to refer to husbands as shepherd-leaders than servant-leaders because the servant idea can—can almost make it sound like: “As long as your wife's happy, you're doing what you need to do.” That's the trap I fell in, for years—was to think, ‘As long as Mary Ann's happy— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —“then I'm—I'm being what God wants me to be.” It's not necessarily her momentary happiness that I should be focused on— Dennis: No, it's not. Bob: —it's the shepherding and leading of her—wisely, gently, carefully, feeding, guiding, caring for her. 19:00 Dennis: —protecting. Bob: That's right. So it was a—it was a helpful metaphor— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —to say: “A man should be a shepherd-leader and a wife should respond and should help in that process.” My other question, though, for you is for the wife who would say: “If I went to my husband and said, ‘How would you like me to be your customized helper?' he would say, ‘Get off my back and leave me alone! Just let me do what I want to do.'” Dennis: But that's not a good answer. Bob: So does she tell him that?! Barbara: Well, I think she frames the question a little differently. I think she says, in a particular situation—like, when Dennis and I were travelling, I could have said to him, “Is there anything I can do to help you so that we can get on our flight on time?” rather than some generic question that he might not be able to put words to. It'd be much better if she said, “How can I help you when we are…” or “…when this situation happens?” or “How can I encourage you when you've had a bad day at work?” If she will be specific, then she might get a more specific answer that would be easier for her to perhaps know what to do with. 20:00 Bob: But if he says, “Just leave me alone,” how does she respond to that? Barbara: I think she needs to say: “What do you mean by leave you alone? What do you want me to back off on?” I think—if she really, genuinely wants to be a better helper—then she needs to ask some follow-up questions / find out: “What does he mean by that?” Bob: Yes. Dennis: I think, over a lifetime together, this is a great question to interact about. In fact, we'd been married for 38 years before the thought ever occurred to me. I was talking to Barbara about her book—just to explore a little bit: “What have we learned in our marriage about how you are a great helper to me?” One of the areas she is—is she's a wise counsellor. Bob: Yes. Dennis: She gives me the perspective that I most count on for my life, from a human perspective. Now, I go to the Bible for my guidance and to guide in prayer; but she's my closest friend—knows me well, looking out for my best interest in multiple ways. 21:00 I go to her for her advice, her counsel, and her perspective. She is a great— Bob: Yes. Dennis: —helper in that area. I think, for a man, if he can just pull back and ask—if you've been married 10 years: “How is your wife a great helper to you? How do you see her having been designed by God to help you?” Another way for Barbara is—and I told her this—she brings great beauty to my life. She's an artist—she likes design / she notices things years before I do. [Laughter] Then she points them out and I enjoy them. Because of her in my life—not only is she beautiful—but she brings beauty to my life and an appreciation for the aesthetics that God has created. Bob: She keeps the sofa looking beautiful, too, by assigning you a place to sit. [Laughter] Barbara: Now Bob, I didn't assign now— Dennis: —in the yard! Barbara: —we agreed! 22:00 Dennis: —in the garage, with the hose! [Laughter] Bob: The thing is—this is a part of the reality of marriage that you guys have, after more than 40 years of being together—you've figured out how to make all of this work. Barbara—now for you to be speaking into the lives of younger women / younger wives—I'm really excited about the book that is now available: Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife by Barbara Rainey. You can go online at FamilyLifeToday.com in order to request a copy of the book, or you can call us at 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the title is Letters to My Daughters by Barbara Rainey. Order, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call us at 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” By the way, I should have you give the shout-out today to some friends of ours, Keith and Mary Kirkland, celebrating their 15th wedding anniversary today. 23:00 They live in Montgomery, Alabama—listen to WLBF. Mary is a big fan of the resources you've created for homes in the Ever Thine Home collection. They've got the Easter banner, they've got Adorenaments, they've got your “Behold the Lamb” resource—I mean, she's got a bunch of stuff in her home, and they're friends of this ministry. They've helped support the work that FamilyLife Today is doing. If it weren't for friends, like the Kirklands, FamilyLife Today couldn't do all that we do. We're listener-supported, and your donations make this ministry possible. During this month, we are hoping that God would raise up, from among our listeners, 20 new families in every state—who would be brand-new Legacy Partners—monthly donors, supporting the ministry of FamilyLife Today. We'd like to ask you to consider being one of the families in your state helping to keep FamilyLife Today on the air in this community. 24:00 You can become a Legacy Partner by going to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link that says, “DONATE,”—the information's available there—or call 1-800- FL-TODAY and say, “I want to become a Legacy Partner.” We hope to hear from you. We hope you can join us back tomorrow when we're going to talk about what's at the heart of being a godly woman. Priscilla Shirer is going to join us, and we'll talk about a godly woman's priorities tomorrow. Hope you can be here for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Surviving the Seasons of Intimacy Guest: Barbara Rainey From the series: Letters to My Daughters (Day 2 of 2) Bob: Why does it seem like moms are often not that interested in marital intimacy? Barbara Rainey understands. Barbara: It's hard to have a good, healthy, dynamic sexual relationship when you're tired all of the time. You're being pulled in a hundred directions by jobs, and kids, and financial stresses, and everything else; and, yet, I would still say that it's important to keep it a priority because, if you don't, you're vulnerable to the enemy / you're vulnerable to the temptation to find that excitement somewhere else. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, February 7th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. Barbara Rainey joins us today to talk about how she worked to make intimacy a priority in her marriage when there were six kids still living at home. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. With the season of romance and love in the air—and let me just remind some of the husbands who are listening—Valentine's Day is coming up. You may want to put that on your calendar or on your reminder list so that you don't arrive at that day and find yourself empty-handed. I've had that experience—it's not a fun experience when that happens. [Laughter] Do you know what I'm talking about? Dennis: No. [Laughter] Bob: Yes; you do! Dennis: Forty-four years; and I'm batting a thousand, Bob! [Laughter] Bob: Are you? Dennis: Ask her! She's here with us! Bob: We have an eye witness here. Barbara Rainey is joining us. Is that true? Has he never missed a Valentine's Day? Has he always had a card, or a gift, or something? Dennis: I've always shown up! Bob: Showing up is something else! [Laughter] Barbara: You have been present. 2:00 Although, I don't know that you've always been present on Valentine's because of travel. Dennis: Oh, yes! That's probably true. Barbara: Yes. Bob: Well, we thought it would be helpful today to discuss the area of sex, and intimacy, and romance, especially since this is something, Barbara—that you wrote about in your book that is now almost a year old—it's called Letters to My Daughters. Chapter 6 was all about helping your daughters and other young wives understand what's going on with this aspect of a marriage relationship. Dennis: And, at this point, I want to read a P.S. that Barbara puts at the end of one of these letters. Now, the book has nine chapters. There's only one chapter on sex, but it's a long chapter; and there are like half a dozen letters that pose a question to Barbara that she answers in the book. I just want to read this: P.S. There are additional unseen benefits to regular sexual relations in marriage. 3:00 Three little facts I learned from one of our FamilyLife Today radio guests: Number one: The chemicals oxytocin and dopamine, when released in the brain, increase bonding; the reexpression of love and commitment strengthens mutual affection; and there is a sense of satisfaction in keeping intimacy alive, even if the actual experience isn't a great one. The last is my favorite, because in our marriage… Now, this is really interesting for me to read on air; because, Bob, you know, we have people come up to us and they say: “You guys! All you do is present a perfect picture of marriage!” Bob: Yes. Dennis: Well, I'm about to dispel that [Laughter] in what I'm about to read that my wife wrote in this book! The last one is my favorite, because in our marriage, sex hasn't always been accompanied by fireworks! Among a lot of good-to-great experiences, we've also had some pretty lousy encounters… 4:00 Did you really write that in this book?! Barbara: I did. [Laughter] And I can tell you still don't like it very much. Dennis: I don't; I don't. [Laughter] I complained about this when I edited it, but you didn't take it out. …some pretty lousy encounters…some that left us both either disappointed or hurt. That makes the chemical facts all the more important, because even not-great sex still bonds us together. Nice to know, huh? [Laughter] Dennis: Honestly, I really appreciate Barbara's honesty about our marriage, because I think a lot of people out there are hurting. They think they're the only ones that ever had a lousy encounter around the sexual relationship. Bob: When you and Dennis, together, wrote the book, Rekindling the Romance, you talked about seasons of a marriage. Barbara: Yes. Bob: You talked about early love, and then you talked about, kind of, this middle season— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —where it just can kind of get routine. 5:00 A lot of husbands and wives, in the middle of raising kids and going through things—they hit that season and they think to one another, “This is it?” They're frustrated and they're disappointed. They wonder, if they switch partners, if things would get better for them. Dennis: Or, let me tell you this—Barbara spoke to one group of women who talked about a no-sex marriage, where people just give up / toss in the towel and say, “We're done.” Bob: And we've talked to couples, who have said, “It's been two years” / “…three years since we've been intimate with one another. We're committed, and we still love each other; but we've just kind of given up on that area of our marriage.” You would say to a wife, who says, “We've given up and we're content, and it's working out for us,”—what would you say? Barbara: I would say that's a dangerous assumption. I think that it's a very real possibility in a lot of marriages, because— 6:00 —you're right—there is a middle ground in marriage, where it's just hard work; because you have so many demands on both of your lives. There's not much energy left over; there's not much enthusiasm; there's not much rest. It's hard to have a good, healthy, dynamic sexual relationship when you're tired all of the time. You're being pulled in a hundred directions by jobs, and kids, and financial stresses, and everything else. Yet, I would still say that it's important to keep it a priority; because if you don't, you're vulnerable to the enemy / you're vulnerable to the temptation to find that excitement somewhere else, which is why there are so many affairs. There are so many couples, who are splitting up and finding new partners, because it is exciting. They're finding that excitement that they once had in the early days of their marriage. 7:00 But it's not going to satisfy; it's not going to replace; it's not going to be better. It's actually going to be more complicated. I really believe, and I've repeated it multiple times in my book, that God is big enough to change any marriage. I strongly believe that His Word is true when He said, “Nothing is too hard for Me.” You may look at your marriage, and you may go: “This is impossible! This is just too hard! I don't think there's any way out.” I want you to know—I've felt that way. I remember feeling that way at different times in those middle years of marriage, when we were swamped with kids and life. It felt too hard; but I knew that God meant what He said when He said, “Nothing is impossible for Me.” So, therefore, if I believe in God—and I do—then I have to take Him at His Word. I have to go to Him and say: “This feels impossible. This feels too difficult, but I know that You can bring life back to our marriage.” 8:00 If you don't quit, then there's always the hope of the redemption—there's the hope of God bringing new life back into your marriage. But when you quit, you've basically slammed the door on the possibility of God working a miracle. I think that's a tragedy. Dennis: And there's a biblical admonition that Paul gives us from 1 Corinthians, Chapter 7. He said, “The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise, the wife to her husband.” It goes on to talk about the wife doesn't have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and the husband doesn't have authority over his body, but the wife does. What I think Paul is exhorting us to here is that you've got to pay attention to one of the strongest drives in humanity. I got to thinking about this, and there are really only a couple of drives, I think, such as the need for oxygen and the need for water and food that would supplant sexuality. 9:00 Bob: You think survival might be a little ahead? Dennis: Well, those are both survival categories; but the point is—the urge for two people to merge was put there by God. I've thought about this many times. It's a good thing, in most marriages, that one of the two of you has a stronger desire to be with the other in the area of sexuality. Why? Because if one of you didn't have a pursuit, what might happen? You'd just have two people, spinning plates, off doing their own thing, and occasionally coming back, like roommates at a house to be able to maybe touch each other with eyesight, but never emotionally—never in depth, with a true, real relationship—the way God designed it in marriage. I think God, in His ingenuity, has made something powerful here that too often has been called “dirty.” 10:00 It really is a healthy desire for two people to become one. Bob: So this brings up the issue, then, Barbara: “How would you coach a wife? Is it ever appropriate for her to say, ‘No, not now / not tonight—I'm not interested right now.' How should she say that? And what are the legitimate reasons for her to say, ‘I can't be with you'? Is it because, ‘I'm too tired,' or because, ‘You hurt me the other day'? What works here?” Barbara: Well, first of all, I think she does have a responsibility to be honest with her husband. I think that faking it—faking being together sexually—is not going to accomplish anything. If there is emotional distance between you—and you're feeling hurt because of something he said or if you really are so exhausted that you just can't function anymore that day—those are real life issues that we all deal with and we all feel. 11:00 The purpose of sex and of coming together is for intimacy—it's for transparency / it's for sharing our lives together. I don't think there's anything wrong with delaying it—I don't think there's anything wrong with a woman expressing how she feels or what her needs are—because to not do that is being disingenuous / that's not transparency. If the goal is transparency / the goal is intimacy and oneness, you have to be real / you have to be honest. Now, the way you do that, I think, is what's most important. That is, you can say, “I just can't tonight,” or “I feel like we've got to finish talking about this argument that we had two days ago,” or whatever it might be. It's the way in which you communicate that that matters to your husband. It must be done with respect; it must be done with commitment; it must be done with love. You say something like: “I need you to know what I'm feeling. Can we talk about this now, or should we talk about it later?” 12:00 “I need some resolution in this area of our relationship.” If you communicate that you're committed to him and you say: “I'm committed to you, and I'm going to work this out. I want to be with you, just not tonight,” or “…just not right now.” I think that's perfectly acceptable as long as “not right now” doesn't turn into two years. I think it needs to be an agreement between a husband and a wife—they talk about it, and they find a solution together that works for both of them. It has to be mutual. Bob: That's 1 Corinthians 7 again; isn't it? Dennis: It is. Paul goes on to say: “Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement, for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer. But then, come back together again so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.” I mean, we live in a highly-sexualized culture. 13:00 We've got to understand one another. Here's where Barbara's book does an outstanding job of helping young wives, and for that matter, older wives understand their husbands in this area—and how they are made by God—and that it's good—it's not bad / it's not evil.. They should bless their husband and not ignore him. If you need to say, “Not tonight, Sweetheart,” don't ignore it tomorrow night, and the next night, and the next night, and the next night. Bob: So the wife who is feeling, tonight: “I think he might be interested. I just—maybe if I just go to bed early—I don't say anything / I just fall— you know, he comes in and finds me asleep. Then, he'll leave me alone.” She gets a little passive-aggressive with how she handles this. She finds ways to dodge or avoid. Dennis: Do you think a guy doesn't know this? Barbara: Yes! He does. Dennis: Yes; he does! Bob: So, to that wife—you'd say: “It's time to get this out in the open and have the conversation”? 14:00 Barbara: Yes; I do. I think it's much better to talk about it. I mean, I think it's a temptation for all of us women to want to kind of just avoid it and hope it will go away when we're too tired, or overwhelmed, or whatever. But making it go away isn't the solution. It's not the solution to any kind of a disagreement, or an impasse, or something that's between you, as husband and wife. It's like the part that Dennis read earlier from my book—even not-so-great sex is bonding. It's remembering what's true / it's remembering the value that God places on your marriage and on the sexual part of your marriage relationship. It's going to him and saying: “I am really exhausted, but I sense that you might be interested in making love tonight,” or “…having sex tonight. Can we talk about that? Can we talk about a solution? Can we figure out what we want to do together so that we're mutually agreeing?” She's not controlling by being passive, and going to sleep ahead of time, and hoping he won't notice. 15:00 Does that make sense? Bob: It does! What do you say, then, to the wife who says, “You know what? Thirty pounds ago, he was attractive. Today, I'm just not attracted to him.” Or she says, “Thirty pounds ago, I felt attractive. Barbara: Yes. Bob: “And now, I don't feel desirable. Even though he says he's interested, I think, ‘How can you be? Because I look at myself in the mirror and I don't feel attractive.'” What do you say about those issues? Barbara: Well, I think those are just further reflections of our need for transparency and our need for oneness. We got married to be acceptable to one another. We got married to know one another in our strengths and in our weaknesses. So when we gain weight or when things change about us, are we still committed? Are we still called to love one another? Are we still committed to making our marriage all that God wants it to be for as long as we both shall live? Well, we have to learn to love one another in our weaknesses. 16:00 We have to learn to love one another in our imperfections. Yes; it may have been easier when you were both in your 20s and you were both—whatever attracted you to each other—but marriage wasn't built for just when we're in our 20s. Marriage was built for a lifetime. You are going to go through trials and difficulties, and both of you are going to change. Is God big enough to give you the kind of love that will last?—the kind of intimacy that you got married for in those years when you are challenged with health issues, or weight issues, or whatever it is? Dennis: And I know a dad who took his daughters aside—they had several daughters—and he just talked to them about the importance of your attractiveness to your husband: “You need to do your job of being the best—the very best—magnet you can be to your man.” Now, we all know that there are these superstar models out there. Bob: Right. 17:00 Dennis: You're never going to be able to compete at that level, but you know what? You can be a beautiful, attractive wife to your husband. One of the things I appreciate about Barbara is—even when she says she doesn't feel pretty, she's still incredibly attractive to me. I just appreciated her for how she's paid attention to the process of aging. I mean, 44 years—that means our listeners know we're no longer teenagers in our 20s; okay? Forty-four years of marriage—I mean, you've got a lot of gravity to fight by the time you get there. So the point is: “Do you care enough to love your husband in the way that speaks love to him?” Barbara: And it's not just about the exterior; because I think what we're talking about right now—people tend to think it's the exterior. It's not! What makes a person beautiful—what makes a man or a woman beautiful—is our hearts. 18:00 If we pay attention to our hearts, we pay attention to learning to love well, and to do what God has called us to do as men and as women, then we're going to be attractive to one another. Because when Dennis serves me, and denies himself for me, and when he does the kinds of things that I know cost him something—and he's doing it because he loves me—that's attractive to me. I mean, I appreciate that / I respond to that. Any woman alive will do that; because, when she sees a man sacrificing for her—we're just built to respond to that—and vice-versa—when women serve their husbands and love their husbands, that's what makes us attractive. Bob: We've been focusing on your counsel to young wives because, again, that's the subject of the book you've written: Letters to My Daughters. I did want to, before we're done, go back 22 years and let our listeners hear a clip of advice that you shared for husbands in this area of sex and romance, back when we recorded a series on FamilyLife Today, back in 1995— 19:00 Dennis: This is scary! [Laughter] Barbara: It is! Bob: —called—do you remember 1995? Do you remember being 22 years younger than you are now? Barbara: Yes, but that was a long time ago! [Laughter] Bob: Well, we're going to hear this clip in just a minute. Let me, first, let our listeners know how they can get a copy of your book, Letters to My Daughters. It's a book that we've got in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can go online at our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, and order your copy of Barbara Rainey's book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. You can also order a copy when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the number is 1-800-358-6329; 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” By the way, when you're on the website at FamilyLifeToday.com, there's a banner there that says, “Romance Me.” 20:00 If you click that, there's a quiz you can take to talk about your romantic style and your spouse's romantic style and to see where there's compatibility and where there might be areas for growth. Click on that when you're on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com. You can share the romance quiz with friends on Facebook® or on Twitter®. We just thought this would be something fun for you to do and just see how you match up in the area of romance. Let me also say a quick word of thanks to those folks who made today's program possible—it's those of you who support this ministry. Particularly, we want to thank those of you who are monthly Legacy Partners and who provide the financial stability / the backbone for this daily radio program. You really are partners with us in this outreach to marriages and families, all around the world, as we work to effectively develop godly marriages and families. We appreciate your partnership with us. 21:00 If you're able to help with a donation today, we'd love to say, “Thank you,” by sending you Dennis and Barbara Rainey's devotional book called Moments with You. It's our thank-you gift if you make a one-time donation or if you make your first gift as a Legacy Partner. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com to find out more or to make a donation. Orcall 1-800-FL-TODAY, and you can donate over the phone. Or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223. Now, we promised our listeners that they were going to get a chance to hear some advice that you shared to husbands. We were recording a series called “Creating a More Romantic Marriage.” We were just asking you to help husbands understand how women think on this issue of romance, and intimacy, and sex in marriage. Dennis: Is this the story about Saran Wrap? [Laughter] Barbara: No!! [Laughter] Bob: Stop it! 22:00 Barbara: It's a story about “a + b = c”; right? Bob: Ah, she knows where we're headed! [Laughter] Listen to this clip from 22 years ago: [Previous Interview] Barbara: I don't think that a woman wants to feel pegged; I don't think she wants to feel figured out, button-holed, taken advantage of—whatever you want to call it. I think that that defeats the essence of love. Again, I think that a husband needs to live with her in an understanding way, and to love her as Christ loved the church, and then she will respond to that. Bob: So it sounds to me like the message here to men is: “Once you've found what really communicates love to your wife,— Dennis: —“don't ever do that again!” [Laughter] Bob: That's right. Barbara: Noooo! Bob: — “she will realize it, and she will change the rules. Barbara: That's not true. Bob: “And tomorrow it's going to be something completely different!” [Laughter] Barbara: It makes us sound schizophrenic. Bob: But that's what it feels like for men sometimes! Barbara: I know! Dennis: Well, it feels like it to a man—that, here, he is doing his best to love his wife— Barbara: I understand. Dennis: —and she throws away the rule book. Barbara: I do. 23:00 Dennis: And she says: “I don't want a rule book. I don't want to be figured out.” Barbara: It sounds awful! [Laughter] It really does. Bob: But it's true; isn't it? Barbara: Well, I really do think it's true. I really do, and it's not that she doesn't want those things done again. It's not that you bring her flowers two or three times and she loves it; and then, all of a sudden, she feels like she's been pegged and she doesn't ever want them again for the rest of her life. I think there needs to be variety / there needs to be creativity. She needs to feel like he's thinking about her in different ways at different times and not just the same old, prescribed pattern. [Studio] Bob: So, 22 years later, it still can't be a formula. Is that what you're saying? Barbara: That is correct. It cannot be a formula. Women still want to be pursued / we still want to be figured out. I think it's a very good thing. Dennis: I'm Dennis Rainey, and that's real family life! [Laughter] Bob: I was waiting for you to say, “I approve this message,”— Barbara: Yes! Bob: —but you didn't say that; did you? Barbara: No. Dennis: That was back last fall—we can't say that anymore. [Laughter] 24:00 No; it's really important that men live with their wives in an understanding way and that a husband understands that his wife needs to be loved. That's a lifetime assignment. What communicates love to your wife will be different than mine, and what communicates love to your wife today will be different in a decade. It will grow / it will mature. I'll tell you what you have, as you move into the twilight years of life, you're going to have a great relationship that you wouldn't want to swap out with anybody, even though there've been some very, very difficult times. Bob: FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
A Grace Disguised (Part 1) - Jerry SittserA Grace Disguised (Part 2) - Jerry SittserA Grace Disguised (Part 3) - Jerry SittserFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Descending Into the Valley Guest: Jerry Sittser From the series: A Grace Disguised (Day 1 of 3) Bob: There are times in the midst of trials and traumas of life when we wonder to ourselves where is God? Why did He let this happen? For Jerry Sittser one of those events occurred in 1991 when he and his wife and their four children and Jerry's mother were hit head on by a vehicle traveling at 85 miles per hour. The collision was fatal for Jerry's wife and for his mom and for one of his four children. As Jerry reflects back on that event today he sees it as something that was ultimately faith affirming. Jerry Sittser: Through a long and often difficult journey I really did discover the Christian faith is true. Grace really is available to get us through these hard stretches of life. The ultimate message of Christianity is not self help it is God's help. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday July 6th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll hear today how a tragic car accident can be a grace disguised. Welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. You and I were having a conversation not long ago with Dr. Al Moeller, the President of Southern Seminary and we asked him about questions he gets thrown by the secular media. We said the tough questions are the ones they ask you. What are the ones that put you on the spot? Without even thinking he said we always come back to the issue of the problem of evil and suffering. How can there be a good God when there is suffering in the world? Dennis: We don't always know what God is up to. He is God and we are not. We have a guest with us today on FamilyLife Today that I think is going to minister to a lot of our listeners. Actually I was introduced to this guest by my wife Barbara, who joins us on FamilyLife Today as well. Welcome Sweetie. Barbara Rainey: Thanks. I'm glad to be here. Dennis: Jerry Sittser has written this book A Grace Disguised which is a story out of his own life and it occurred a number of years ago. Jerry lives in Spokane Washington up in the eastern section of that great state. He is a professor of theology at Whitworth University and has a Masters of Divinity from Fuller Theological Seminary and has his doctorate in history from the University of Chicago. This leaves me with only one question Jerry, White Sox or Cubs? (laughter)Bob: Or were you there long enough to even care? Dennis: Oh he had to be if he had his PHD. Jerry Sittser: Dodgers! (laughter) Dennis: Well, I do welcome you to the broadcast and I am grateful for you writing this book, A Grace Disguised. I want Barbara to share with our listeners to help put in context out of which she gave me Jerry's book. Bob: Was this something somebody gave you as a gift? Barbara: It was a book that someone had recommended to me a number of years ago. I bought it and started reading it and it was in my library. But I didn't finish the book until last summer after our granddaughter Molly was born and only lived seven days and then died. As we began to try to make sense of what God had done and what He was up to I pulled that book off the shelf. This time I had a real heart for it. I needed it. I read it all the way through and I was constantly underlining and reading portions of it to Dennis and saying “listen to what this says.” I bought several copies and gave one to a couple of my daughters. I gave one to Molly's mother, Rebecca, and a couple of our other daughters, too. I said you need to have this in your library and if you don't read it all the way through right now you will read it eventually. Dennis: It is really a love story of sorts that started when you met your wife Linda. How did you meet her, Jerry? Jerry Sittser: I was a student at Hope College and she was a student at Hope College in Holland, Michigan. After I experienced a conversion between my sophomore and junior year we became very good friends. Really best friends. One day I was standing in a group of people and somebody got my attention from maybe 100 yards away and I turned and said something to them I'm sure. I was a little cocky back then. (laughter) Linda was in that circle and I turned back and our eyes met and that was it right there. I just fell in love on the spot. Dennis: You were smitten. Jerry Sittser: Oh, my goodness was I smitten. Bob: But you'd known her for months before this?Jerry Sittser: We were very good friends, yes. Bob: So what in that moment you don't know? Jerry Sittser: I don't know but our eyes met and it was just different. So I asked her out a few days later and we were married eight months later. Dennis: No, no, no. I want to know how you asked her to marry you because it has to be a great story. Jerry Sittser: Well, we went up to some property that my family owned off the Grand River up in the hills. We made a day of it and did some hiking and I had hidden a family heirloom a little silver container with the engagement ring inside it. That also was the family stone. I asked her to marry me. Dennis: You were married for 20 years. Jerry Sittser: Twenty years—just shy of 20 years and we had four children. Dennis: She was a homeschooler and she enjoyed teaching your kids. Taking them on field trips, right? Jerry Sittser: She was a multitalented woman. She was very bright. She was a professional musician and singer. She was the choir director and the director of the professional children's choir in Spokane and a paid soloist at our home church and also a homeschooler. Dennis: You were on a field trip where you went to Idaho and it was not a normal field trip that you would think of when you think of homeschoolers. Jerry Sittser: She had just completed a unit on Native American cultures to my two oldest who were being homeschooled at the time. We went on a field trip to a Native American powwow. We had dinner with the tribal leaders and had a wonderful time and wonderful conversation. Ironically one of the topics that came up was the curse of alcoholism in the tribe and the violence that often resulted from it. They spoke with great pain over that. These were really wonderful people. Some fine Christian people. After the dinner with them we went to the powwow and enjoyed it. My two daughters who were then eight and four actually went out and danced with the tribe for a while. I continued my conversation with Linda and several of the tribal leaders until about 8:30 and then we decided to go home. Dennis: Now this was 1991? Jerry Sittser: 1991 September 27. Dennis: And you were there with your wife and four children plus your own mom. Jerry Sittser: My mom came for the weekend. She and my wife were going to go dress shopping for a new dress for a solo performance she was going to be doing of the Messiah in December. Typical for my mom she brought 12 quarts of frozen blueberries packed in ice. It was so typical for what she would do. She was a wonderful woman, a great grandma, and a great mom. She was very close to our family. Dennis: You had gone to Idaho for this field trip and you decided to head back home to Spokane at that point? Jerry Sittser: We did. It was dark out obviously and on a lonely stretch of highway only about 10 minutes from where the powwow was held I noticed a car coming on at a really rapid rate of speed. It slowed down just a little bit at a curve and so I was alert to this. Without any warning he just drove right into me. He missed the curve and plowed head on at 85 miles per hour. In fact it was so head on that his car cart wheeled over ours. So it didn't roll it cart wheeled down the highway. It was awful. In the wake of that accident as soon as I could I collected myself. I was not injured seriously just bruised and that sort of thing. I looked around and knew that it was really bad. My mother who was sitting way in the back was seriously injured. My four year old I could tell was dead. She had a broken neck. I tried to get a pulse and did mouth to mouth but it was hopeless. I could tell my wife, Linda, was catastrophically injured, too. My other kids were dazed, crying, and screaming. It was chaotic. All the windows were broken out of the car. My door could open and I got the kids out who were mobile. Katherine was eight and John was six and David was two. I found out later that John had a broken femur and some other injuries but the other two kids were just bruised but okay. I went back to try to tend to Linda. I got a pulse but knew she wasn't going to live because her injuries were just too severe. I did mouth to mouth on Diana Jane but she was gone. I got to my mother only briefly but then something beautiful happened. You find these flowers in the midst of ashes almost right away. People began to stop. The scene was chaotic. The driver survived but his wife who was nine months pregnant died and the unborn baby died as well. There were five casualties in the accident. Some guy got out of the car and went over to my mother and reached out to her through the broken window and held her hand and stroked her arm until she died. That is a beautiful act of grace to me. It was very courageous of him in the midst of that chaos and that violence to break through that with mercy and love. I wish I knew who that man was because I'd like to thank him. Bob: What a surreal moment that had to be for you. Almost like you've stepped out of time and space and your body…I don't know how to describe it other than just surreal.Jerry Sittser: Yes, it was surreal. I have such vivid memories to this day. Nothing has faded at all. First it was a nightmare to have those kinds of memories. It's not so bad anymore because it's been integrated into the landscape of my life. It doesn't haunt me like it used to. We waited a long time before emergency vehicles came and they took over. I got to a phone as soon as I could to call my sister to say something unspeakable had happened. After about an hour the survivors, namely my three children Katherine, John and David and I were all put in the same emergency vehicle and were transported another hour up to Coeur d'Alene for emergency care. That one hour was probably the most significant hour in my life. It really was the turning point for me. It was like a wormhole from one reality to another. Honestly it's the most accurate way I can describe it. Time ceased to have meaning. It could have been ten years. That period of time is frozen in my memory and it was probably the most rational moment I've ever had in my life. It was quiet. John was sedated. The other kids were whimpering but it was quiet. The emergency personnel didn't say anything and I had one hour to just be. I thought about the accident and the scene. I knew what had happened and I thought of what would be as a result. I considered the task set before me. I had a burden that was placed on my shoulders and in a sense a divine mandate that said you draw a line in the sand right now and decide what you want to be and what you want to come from this experience. And I did. I said, I want the bleeding to stop right here. This is it. I don't want to do things that are going to set in motion more and more pain and more and more bleeding that could go on for generations. I made the basic decision right then and there that I was going to somehow by the grace of God respond and live this story out in a way that was going to be redemptive. Redemption was really the key term that just kept coming back to me. Redemption. This is not the final word. Dennis: I want out listeners to hear what's wrapped up in your statement because you make this statement in your book. You said loss does not have to be the defining moment in our lives instead the defining moment can be our response to that loss. It's not what happens to us that matters so much as what happens in us. You really believe that don't you? Jerry Sittser: I do believe it by the grace of God. I didn't write a self help book here. I don't believe that. The ultimate message of Christianity is not self help it is God's help. Through a long and often difficult journey I really did discover that the Christian faith is true. Grace really is available to get us through these hard stretches of life. My response of choosing to trust the grace of God was far more significant than the event itself. You know my kids would say the same thing today. They would say that the accident is actually not that significant. It is what's come out of it that is significant. Bob: What seems remarkable to me as you describe this hour of rational clarity is the absence of grief. I think of someone living through what you have just lived through and I would think this person would be a grieving basket case. It's not that you didn't experience grief. Jerry Sittser: No, I did. Bob: Do you think this was kind of a shock response or was this the grace of God giving you this moment of clarity to prepare you for what was ahead? Jerry Sittser: I suppose you could say there was some shock involved in it but Bob, there was something more than that honestly. I look back on it this day with a sense of wonder. It wasn't simply that I had not absorbed the significance. I knew what had happened to me. It wasn't even as if I was holding it off. I think God gave me that gift. I think He gave me one hour to decide what I was going to believe and where I was going to head and I walked out of that emergency vehicle in Coeur d'Alene into a different world. I collapsed. It was hard going for a long time. Bob: Can I ask the two of you did you experience anything similar to that, Barbara, in going through what you went through with the death of Molly? Barbara: I think we did but it wasn't anywhere near as dramatic as what Jerry was describing. We watched our kids and as we watched them respond to the news that Molly was not going to live they had a choice to make in those first moments. I think those early moments of facing tragedy and loss in a crisis like that are the defining moments. They decided they were going to believe God. They were going to believe that He was good and that He was sufficient and that He knew what He was doing. That really set the course for them from there on out. So I think in the moment of crisis I think God gives us that opportunity to choose. Do we believe Him or not? Jerry Sittser: I like what Barbara said about defining a course because that's different from solving all the problems. When you suffer a loss whether it be divorce or terminal illness or loss of a job it can be other things that are a little less dramatic and tragic. I think we do have the power to set a course and that makes a huge difference over a long period of time. It doesn't solve all the problems but it gets us going in a particular direction. I think I did that by the grace of God. Bob: You know people or have met people who just dissolved in their moment of pain and didn't have that rational clarity that you described. Jerry Sittser: I think what happens is we give some kind of tragedy more power than it deserves. It does become the defining moment instead of the response being the defining moment. It's the thing itself and then pretty soon it's affecting other relationships. It's affecting life habits that we form and 20 or 30 years later that divorce or loss or whatever continues to dominate our lives. That's what I call the second death and it's actually worse than the initial death. Far worse than the loss of Linda and my mom and Diana Jane would have been say the loss my children would have experienced in my bitterness. In fact I have an interesting story to tell you. About six months or a year after the accident I got an anonymous telephone call from a young woman who said, “Mr. Sittser I want to tell you my story. When I was a young girl my mother died of cancer and I've been in therapy for six years. I thought to myself this is not a helpful conversation she said no let me continue my story. “I'm in therapy not because I lost my mother but I lost my father at the same time and he is still alive. He became non functional and so overcome with grief and bitterness that I lost both parents but my dad is still alive. She said, don't let that happen to you” and she hung up the phone. Now she didn't give me new information but it was a wonderful reminder to me that the role I was playing was significant. By my own attitude and spirit I was setting a course and I was giving cues to my children. Dennis: You are also making choices for your own life that are going to determine who you become as a man. I think of the listeners who have eavesdropped today in terms of hearing this story. I wonder what they are facing because all of us experience loss. If you live long enough you will experience loss. The Bible is a very lofty book but it's also a very gritty book that meets us in the midst of our grief. You made a statement Jerry that I want to underline. I really understand why a loss can become central to our lives and why the grief that surrounds it can become the defining moment. It hurts. It is terrible. As you describe it it's catastrophic but I like what you did in your book. You called us away from the focus on the circumstances to focus on the God of all grace and mercy who can bring hope and healing. He can keep us from becoming embittered in that process. Bob: Barbara, in the weeks that followed in the birth and death of your granddaughter Molly you had a lot of people send you quotes and recommend articles or books. This book was the one God used most powerfully, wasn't it? Barbara: Yes. It was. There were other things, too, but this was the book that I read through that really resonated in my soul. Jerry talked about not just the loss of death but all kinds of loss and how our identity is wrapped up in how we respond to that loss. It was really profound in my life. Bob: I think both of you will be encouraged to know that we have a lot of listeners over the last several weeks who have contacted us to get a copy of Jerry's book called A Grace Disguised. We still have copies in our FamilyLife Resource Center. You can go to our web site FamilyLifeToday.com and find information about Jerry's book which is called A Grace Disguised: How the Soul Grows Through Loss. You'll find it available there along with copies of the book that you've just finished writing Barbara along with your daughter Rebecca called A Symphony in the Dark: Hearing God's Voice in Seasons of Grief. It focuses in on the events of a year ago when your granddaughter Molly was born and lived for seven days and how your family processed that season of grief. Again both of these books are available from us at FamilyLife Today. Go to our web site FamilyLife Today.com. You can order online from us if you'd like or if it's easier call 1-800-FL-TODAY. That's 1-800-358-6329. That's 1 800 “F”as in family “L” as in life and then the word TODAY and we can make arrangements to have whichever of these books you'd like or both of them sent out to you. We also want to take a couple of minutes and say thanks to those of you who help underwrite this daily radio program. Your financial support of FamilyLife Today is what keeps this program on the air. It helps defray the costs of production and syndication to keep this program on more than a thousand radio stations and outlets all across the country. It is available online and audio streaming and as a podcast. Thanks to those of you who help make that happen by making donations on a regular basis for the ministry of FamilyLife Today. This month if you're able to help with a donation of any amount to the ministry of FamilyLife Today we have a CD we'd like to send you. This CD features a conversation we had several months ago with Nancy Leigh DeMoss the popular author and speaker and the host of the daily radio program, Revive Our Hearts. Our conversation was on the subject of forgiveness and what the Bible says about forgiveness. Nancy has written a great book called Choosing Forgiveness and I know that this is a subject that a lot of people struggle with. Jerry you addressed it in your book A Grace Disguised. This CD is our way of saying thank you to you this month when you support the ministry of FamilyLife Today with a donation of any amount. If you're making that donation online at FamilyLifeToday.com all you have to do is type the word “forgive” in the key code box on the donation form and we'll know to send a copy of the CD to you. Or call toll-free 1 800 FLTODAY. Make your donation over the phone and just ask for the CD on forgiveness or the CD with Nancy Leigh DeMoss. Again we are happy to send it to you and we do appreciate your support of this ministry. Thanks for partnering with us. Tomorrow we're going to talk about life getting back to normal after a catastrophic event like the one Jerry Sittser experienced almost two decades ago now. We'll find out if life ever does get back to normal or if it's just a new normal. I hope you can join us for that. I want to thank our engineer today Keith Lynch and our entire broadcast production team on behalf of our host Dennis Rainey I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. © 2009 FamilyLife We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
A Grace Disguised (Part 1) - Jerry SittserA Grace Disguised (Part 2) - Jerry SittserA Grace Disguised (Part 3) - Jerry SittserFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Walking By Faith Through Irreversible Loss Guest: Jerry Sittser From the series: A Grace Disguised (Day 2 of 3) Bob: Jerry Sittser understands grief and loss in a profound way. He and three of his children escaped from a car accident that took the life of his wife, his mother and one of his four children. How long would it take for someone to recover from a loss like that? Here's Jerry Sittser. Jerry Sittser: Through a long and often difficult journey I really did discover the Christian faith is true. Grace really is available to get us through these hard stretches of life. The ultimate message of Christianity is not self help. It is God's help. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, July 7th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife Dennis Rainey and I'm Bob Lepine. Jerry Sittser says when the landscape of life has been permanently altered God's grace is there to help you make some sense of the loss and to give you peace. Welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. We have been talking a lot not just this week but in recent weeks about the subject of loss. We're trying to help listeners understand that your responses to the loss you will experience in life will help shape you and your family and your marriage and your whole life. Dennis: It will. In fact, our guest on today's program is really the result of losses that Barbara and I have experienced in recent days. In fact I want to welcome Barbara to the broadcast again. Barbara Rainey: Thank you. Dennis: Thanks for joining us again Sweetheart and thanks for recommending Jerry Sittser's book A Grace Disguised. Jerry I want to welcome you to our broadcast. Welcome back. Jerry Sittser: Thank you. It's a privilege. Jerry is the professor of theology at Whitworth University in Spokane Washington. As we mentioned earlier Jerry's book was used in our family as it was recommended to Barbara by a friend. She started reading it after our daughter Rebecca and her husband, Jake, lost their daughter Molly after only seven days. This book really helped Barbara and me as well as Jake and Rebecca process through how the soul processes grief. We mentioned earlier how you lost your wife, your mom and your daughter in a tragic car wreck in 1991. That really is the genesis of this book. I have to ask you a big picture question. If you could summarize what you think God is up to when He allows us to experience grief what would you say? You've experienced it on a profound level that few people will ever experience it. What do you think He's up to in grief? Jerry Sittser: I am not sure I can answer that question in a word. That's a very difficult question actually. I think over all I would say that God is in the business of reclaiming people who have turned away from Him. He created us in His image. He created us to be gloriously beautiful people who participate in the divine glory. The perfect relationship that exists between Father, Son and Holy Spirit and we've turned away from that. That divine image has been marred and made perverse. He wants not simply to save us. He wants to reclaim us and restore us and one of the ways that happens like it or not is through suffering. I honestly think suffering is necessary in the Christian faith. It happens in lots of different ways some we can choose like the suffering that comes when we deny our appetites and practice self discipline. John Calvin called it self denial. Sometimes that suffering is imposed upon us through some kind of loss or tragedy. Either way we need some kind of suffering not masochistically but honestly realistic to become the holy people God wants us to be and to draw us into a vital relationship with Him. Bob: Grief that we experience when we go through a loss to what extent are we in…I don't want to use the word control but to what extent do we have power over that grief? And to what extent does the grief have power over us? Do you know what I'm asking here? Jerry Sittser: Well, I'll start by saying this. I don't think God causes these things as if He were some kind of divine manipulator who hovers above the ground and zaps us with cancer or divorce or job loss or loss of portfolio or loss of a loved one. I think that is a very poor mechanistic view of the sovereignty of God. I think God is in it. God's sovereignty is in it. I don't think God causes it in that kind of crude kind of way. I will say God uses it. God's in it in that sense. Our choice is whether we're going to respond to the work the sanctifying work God is trying to do in our lives. Does grief and loss have power? Of course it does. It can change the entire course of our lives. But I think the greater power is the way we respond by faith to God's work in our lives. It's a hard thing to say. It sounds so easy and so trivial. Oh you know God's trying to sanctify us. I almost resist saying it because I don't what it to come across kind of cheap as if I'm quoting a Bible answer or a Bible verse and that verse is going to make everything right. Well, God works all things out for good for those who love Him. I mean that is a true statement. I believe that with all my heart but I also believe that is extraordinarily hard to work out in normal life. Bob: There were times when I'm sure the grief had to be…I don't know if I want to say overwhelming or just so compelling that you felt powerless against it. Jerry Sittser: Of course. I think any true catastrophic loss leads to that. That's the difference between a normal loss from which you'll recover like you're high school athlete and you break your leg and lose the season. It's a big loss and it's hard but you're going to get your leg back again and you might be able to play another season. There's a big difference between that kind of loss though significant and the loss of a spouse or the loss of your health. I call those irreversible losses and I'll tell you they have power. We're fools not to acknowledge the power they have. Barbara: Interestingly I was with our daughter Rebecca a couple of weeks ago and she and her husband, Jacob, had renewed hope. They had gotten pregnant with baby #2 and then at 14 weeks gestation the baby died. She had to deliver this still born baby at 16 weeks. Go through the labor and delivery which was traumatic in and of itself but as I was there for a week and we had many really wonderful conversations. During that time one of the things Rebecca said to me that was really profound was we're not as fragile as we think we are. We feel like in these really hard times that we won't survive but she said I've learned that we can handle a lot more than we think that we can handle. Because God strengthens us to go through these things that he takes us through. She said I'm just amazed that I can go through this and still live. Because you feel like you won't live. You feel like you're going to die because of the burden of the grief. She said I've learned we are stronger than we think we are. We aren't as fragile as people as we imagined that we would be when looking at a situation like that. Bob: Did you feel like you weren't going to live in the days that followed your wife's death? Jerry Sittser: No I think that maybe that's a little too extreme. I knew somewhere deep inside my soul that God was still God. I had to live in this dynamic tension between acknowledging the severity of the loss on all levels. Not just intellectual but emotional. Grief has its way. It is corrosive. It gets to you. You can push it away for a month or a few months. You can work hard. You can develop bad habits and do whatever you want to run away but eventually it's going to get its way. It's going to tell you that those people are gone and they are never going to come back again. So that's one side of things. Acknowledging the severity of the loss on the other hand also requires us to live by faith and to recognize there is a bigger story being told. God is somehow in this even if we don't see how He is. Even if we don't have any evidence at our immediate disposal that God is God and God is good somehow we have to believe that that is still the case. You have to live in that tension. If you pretend it's not severe it's like painting over mold. You don't want to give that mold too much power either. Recognize that you can get rid of that mold and put on fresh paint and make that wall beautiful again. It's a very delicate process to navigate through the months and sometimes the years involved. Bob: So you're not saying to somebody keep a stiff upper lip and deny the anguish of your soul in the midst of grief. Jerry Sittser: I don't think so. I don't think the Bible teaches that either. You look at the book of Psalms and fifty percent or about 75 of them are devoted to the Psalms of lament…The anguish of the soul in the face of unanswerable questions or so it seems at the time and unimaginable loss and grief…the trail of enemies and this kind of thing. We have a kind of emotional handbook right in the Bible that's acknowledging the severity of these kind of losses. I think it's not wise to pretend that they don't exist or they aren't serious. They don't have the final word. That's what a Christian believes. The final word is the Resurrection. Dennis: Jerry, you describe a scene in the mortuary where you visited the three caskets and you asked to have them opened. You were there alone for about an hour. You said that point ushered you into a darkness. Describe what took place in that setting in the mortuary? Jerry Sittser: Well, it's difficult. You have to use images because language just fails as it does to all people who've gone through some kind of severe loss. I felt like I was floating just in the universe and utterly cut off and alienated. I looked around to see billions of stars. The world seemed like a cold impersonal place. It was really an awful experience for me. But it also turned out to be a significant turning point for me too. That very night or a few nights later I had a kind of waking dream. It was a dream but it was not like a typical dream at all. It was very vivid and real to me. It is to this day. In this dream I was chasing frantically after the sun that was slowly setting in the west. I remember as I was running that there was the frantic panicked terrifying feeling. It was as if that sun beat me to the horizon it would never come back to me again. Finally the sun did sink below the horizon and I stopped exhausted and looked with a sense of foreboding to the darkness from the east that was sweeping over me. Then I awoke from the dream and I felt a kind of extastential darkness. It was if I was going to be in this darkness for the rest of my life. It was really a terrible feeling. I told a cousin this dream a few days later and he reminded me of a poem written by John Donne a very famous 17th century Anglican poet. In the poem Donne says that on a flat map east and west are far removed from each other. The farther east you go the farther removed you are from the west. But on a globe if you go east you eventually meet west. Then I talked to my sister about this and she said that's the cue for you Jerry. If you keep running west to try to stay in the fiery warmth of the setting sun you will actually stay in the darkness longer. But if you have the courage to plunge into that darkness heading east even if you're hanging by one thin thread of faith all the sooner will you come to the sunrise. That was really a cue for me to head into darkness and let grief have its way with me assuming that I would all the sooner come to the sunrise. Bob: You did have a period of darkness in the days that followed. There was depression and daily weeping. As we sit here 18 years later talking about trusting in God in the midst of those days it was a hard journey you were on. Jerry Sittser: It was a hard journey. There were lots of tears and lots of tears of my kids. Actually the hardest period was after the tears stopped. The tears kind of turned to brine. It became thick and bitter. Almost like molasses. It didn't flow quite so easily. That was darker still. This is hard work. It is for anybody who goes through a severe loss. Dennis: Yes and watching our daughter go through this both Barbara and I as parents have felt so powerless apart from our prayers. There really are no words to be able to share. Our daughter found a lot of healing and help in writing a blog. I'll never forget one of her blog entries where she described mourning the loss of her daughter and finding comfort by crawling up into the crib and weeping for the loss of her baby girl. As those who peer in other people's lives coach us a bit on how we can keep an appropriate distance and not be trite in what we say. What should we say and do for that person who is entering or is in the valley of the shadow of death? Jerry Sittser: I would say presence, consistency, patience, and symbolic gestures. I have a young friend—well, she's not so young any more—who was the accompanist to Linda's voice students when we lived in Iowa and she has sent me a long letter and card on the anniversary of the accident for 18 years recalling incidences, sharing life and expressing sympathy. She's never too syrupy. I find that kind of gesture profoundly meaningful. When we aren't affected by loss in the dailyness of life it's easy to think that after two or three months people should be getting on with the business of life because we are getting on with the business of life. But for those who are affected in a primary kind of way they are the ones who have suffered the loss and whose landscape of life is permanently altered they are living in that for a long period of time in one sense for the rest of their lives. Now their perspective is going to change over time. Mt. Rainier is always 14,410 feet. It looks a lot bigger when you're a mile away than when you are 50 miles away. The size never changes. Our perspective can change over time admittedly so I think that dailyness, consistency, presence and those symbolic gestures are probably the best we can do. Then simply pick up on cues. The cues like when they are ready to talk. Be ready to listen. When they really feel like they are ready to receive a word then you give it but never before that. Dennis: Yes. Jerry Sittser: And what you don't want to do is use words to try to somehow push the loss and its significance away. Sometimes words can actually exacerbate the problem rather than help the problem. I mean Job's three friends did their best work when they just shut their mouths for a week and sat with Job on that heap of ashes. Bob: Barbara were there people in your life or in Jake and Rebecca's lives who did some of those same things like symbolic gestures that Jerry is talking about. Barbara: Yes, there have been some remarkable young men and women friends of Jacob and Rebecca's who have done things that I wouldn't have thought to do. On the very first Easter after Molly died one of their friends brought an Easter basket that was pink with pink candy and a pink bunny and bow and left it on their front porch and said Happy Easter. It would have never occurred to me to do that but it was a powerful statement of love. They didn't stay themselves. They just left it there. So there have been those kinds of things that people have thought to do and what we've noticed and learned by watching them is if you have an idea of something like that act on it. Because so often I think we think of an idea and think well that might not be a good thing to do. The people who have encouraged Jacob and Rebecca the most are the ones who have had the thought to write them a note or have had the thought to drop off the Easter basket. There have been other things too that they've thought of and acted on it. Bob: Jerry I hear Barbara's story about the Easter basket and I think to myself boy, I don't know that I'd want to do that. It's almost like saying here's a reminder on Easter that you lost your child nine months ago… Barbara: They know it anyway. Jerry Sittser: As if they aren't thinking the same thing. Are you kidding me? Barbara: Of course they think about it. Jerry Sittser: We did a lot of things as a family, too. We always observe the anniversary of the accident and at key milestones we'd have dinner parties and I'd invite our key community of friends over and we'd observe it and I'd thank them. My wife Linda would have been 60 in April and I talked to all of my kids and we kind of laughed about what it would be like for them to have a 60 year old mother. We have been pretty mindful of these important milestones along the way even after all these years. It's not at all bitter any more. We have a lot of good stories that have happened in these last 18 years. It's been very rich and meaningful for us but we still are mindful of this loss and these important dates and milestones. Dennis: Sometimes the grief will be expressed in a phone conversation or in person or in a letter or email where it's clear that the person is truly grieving. At that moment they are really hurting. Recently I received an email from our daughter and her husband just around what they were experiencing and I started weeping. I just wept. I thought what can I say? I just wrote back an email that said I'm weeping with you, Dad.Jerry Sittser: Yes. Dennis: I think many times in our desire to help as you just exhorted us Jerry it's back to that statement—I have regretted my speech but never my silence. Sometimes the gift of presence and being there and letting someone know you are praying for them and you are there for them may be all that's needed in that moment. Never underestimate the power of a human being touching another life at a point of tremendous trauma and hurt in a catastrophic loss like you experienced. Bob: And coming alongside with a gift like a copy of Jerry's book and you can say you may not want to read this right now but at the right time I believe this book will minister to you in a profound way. We have copies of Jerry's book called A Grace Disguised: How the Soul Grows Through Loss in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. We would love to send you a copy. Go to our web site FamilyLife Today.com. Again that's FamilyLifeToday.com. You can order online from us if you'd like or if it's easier call 1-800-FL-TODAY. That's 1-800-358-6329. Let me also mention a book you have written Barbara along with your daughter Rebecca when your granddaughter Molly was born and lived for seven days before she died. That book is called A Symphony in the Dark: Hearing God's Voice in Seasons of Grief. You can find more information about that book on our web site as well FamilyLife Today.com. Or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. That's 1 800 “F”as in family “L” as in life and then the word TODAY. We also want to take a couple of minutes and say thanks to those of you who support the ministry of FamilyLife Today by making donations on a regular basis. We are listener supported. The costs associated with producing and syndicating are underwritten by those of you who contact us to make a donation to keep us on the air and to support the other ministries of FamilyLife. We do appreciate that support and in fact this month we'd like to say thank you if you're able to support the ministry with a donation of any amount. We sat down not long ago with Nancy Leigh DeMoss the author of a number of books and the host of the daily radio program Revive Our Hearts. We talked to her about the issue of forgiveness and what the Bible has to say about choosing to forgive. Nancy has written a great book called Choosing Forgiveness and if you'd like to receive a CD of our conversation with her on this subject you can make a donation this month of any amount to the ministry of FamilyLife Today and simply request the CD as a thank you gift. If you're making that donation online at FamilyLifeToday.com all you have to do is type the word “forgive” in the key code box on the donation form and we'll know to send a copy of the CD to you. Or call toll-free 1 800 FLTODAY. Make your donation over the phone and just ask for the CD of our conversation with Nancy Leigh DeMoss. Again we are happy to send it to you and we do appreciate your support of this ministry. Thanks for partnering with us. Tomorrow we'll talk about how we can be used by God to bring comfort to others as they experience loss and hope you can be with us as we continue our conversation with Jerry Sittser.I want to thank our engineer today Keith Lynch and our entire broadcast production team on behalf of our host Dennis Rainey I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. © 2009 FamilyLife We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex and Intimacy (Part 1) - Juli Slattery25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex and Intimacy (Part 2) - Juli Slattery25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex and Intimacy (Part 3) - Juli SlatteryFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Sexual Discipleship Guest: Juli Slattery From the series: 25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask (Day 2 of 3) Bob: Has it ever occurred to you that sexual intimacy between a man and a woman—that was God's idea and His design? Here is Dr. Juli Slattery. Juli: I think that the average Christian couple can't imagine God blessing anything sexual—where we see in the Song of Solomon that, actually, God is blessing this couple that is in the midst of sexual intimacy: “Eat friends. Drink. Imbibe deeply. Enjoy this, because I gave this to you as a gift. Even if you've got all kinds of things in your past, bring those before Me / lay them before Me; and I bless what you have today within the confines of marriage.” Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, October 25th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey. I'm Bob Lepine. The Bible has a lot to say about intimacy in marriage—a lot of good things—and we're going to explore some of it today. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I think you were the first person I ever heard quote Howard Hendricks on the subject we're talking about today. And the quote, if I remember it—you can correct me if I'm wrong—was— Dennis: I will. [Laughter] Bob: No—no doubt there. I think he said, “We should not be ashamed to discuss what God was not embarrassed to create.” Dennis: That's right. You nailed it. Bob: That's what we're going to be doing today; right? Dennis: We are going to discuss what God was not ashamed to create. In fact, I just want to read about it—here in Genesis, Chapter 1, verse 27: “So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.” I don't understand it. I just know the Bible proclaims it. Somehow, our sexuality, as men and women, declares who God is to a planet that does not know Almighty God and all that He is about. 2:00 And I've got to tell you—over a lifetime, you just begin to explore what God is up to around this whole area of human sexuality. Dr. Juli Slattery is going to help us unpack this today and provide all the answers with a book that she has written called 25 Questions You're Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex, and Intimacy. Juli: Wow! Dennis: Wow is right. Juli: All the questions—I don't— Dennis: Well, you actually chose to be on FamilyLife Today to discuss this. Juli: This is obedience. Dennis: I think it is. [Laughter] Juli has been married to her husband Mike since 1994. They have three sons. She is a clinical psychologist / authored a number of books. I just want to talk about something that you discuss in your book. I've never heard this subject before; but I have to admit I really, really like this—you talk about the need for sexual discipleship. I love the concept because discipleship means training;— 3:00 Juli: Right. Dennis: —it means equipping; it means helping someone know how to think about life. Now, you apply it, if you would, to the area of human sexuality. Juli: Absolutely. You know, I grew up in a Christian family / in church. The best that I got was little pockets of sex education. The difference between discipleship and education is what you referred to, Dennis—is: “Do you know how to think biblically about God's design for sexuality?” Dennis: Give us an idea of one of those little pockets of truth you learned, growing up. Explain what you mean by that. Juli: Sure. You're told sex is wrong before marriage; and somehow, it is right after marriage: “Don't do it before you get married. Don't think about it. Don't be sexual. But as soon as you get married, all of a sudden, this switch will flip, and you're going to have fun.” So, that's what we're told. The reality of it is—you are a sexual person before or if you never get married— 4:00 —you're still a sexual person: “What do I do with that?” Then, once you get married—if you get married—it's not like this switch will flip and then, all of a sudden, you know how to enjoy this. I experienced that as a Christian young woman. It was like the messages were so confusing. I would say, in the first decade of our marriage, “This area was not good”; and we didn't know how to address it because we weren't given the training. Bob: I just have to say—I love the fact that your starting place for this conversation is—not how to counteract cultural messages or how to answer: “Well, what's acceptable / what's not acceptable?”—your starting place is: “Let's think like God thinks about this subject. Let's cultivate a biblical worldview and not just a limited, pocketed biblical worldview, where we know this is true and this is true; but we don't see the big picture. Let's get it all out on the table and understand it in a fully-orbed way.” 5:00 When you do that—now, all of a sudden, a lot of the questions that you have get answered by themselves; don't they? Juli: They absolutely do. What I'm seeing, in working with women, is that the average Christian woman has been discipled in many areas of her life—including her marriage—but she hasn't been discipled in how to think about sexuality. Bob: So, when you're advocating sexual discipleship—the term that Dennis mentioned—how does that happen in a practical way? I think there probably are a lot of people, going, “And who's competent to do the discipling, given the fact that we're all kind of messed up in this area?” Juli: I don't know who first said it, but I've heard someone say that: “Some things are too important not to do poorly.” In other words, we don't have to have it mastered to step into this arena. We just have to say: “Alright, Lord, we're dying here / we're drowning here. Would You begin equipping us? Would You begin raising up leaders? Would You give us wisdom to know what You believe about sexuality by reading Your Scripture with that lens?” 6:00 There are a lot of resources out there. That's part of my passion—is creating resources—there are other ministries doing that—but it says: “Let's not just look at the issue; for example, of pornography and say: ‘Oh, that's bad. Here's how you combat it.' But let's tie that into the larger spiritual battle of what's happening in our church and in our culture related to sexuality and why God cares about that battle.” Dennis: And you don't have to wait until—as we're talking about here—you have the subject mastered— Juli: No. Dennis: —to begin talking with your son or your daughter. I just have to raise one of the issues that a lot of parents are afraid their children are going to ask, “Well, Mom/Dad, did you wait?”—to which, how do you answer that question? How do you help parents know how to deal with their children's curiosity? Juli: Yes; you know, it's a wonderful example to share the gospel right there; because what we know from children and, particularly, teenagers is that they learn and respect you the most when you're authentic. 7:00 You don't have to give details; but if you tell the story, right then, about if you didn't wait: “How I didn't trust God's plan,” or “I didn't know God's plan. Here are the consequences that I walked with. Here's how the Lord met me and has forgiven me in that,” and “I don't want you to have to walk through those same consequences that I did.” So, not only there, discipling your children sexually, you're discipling them in terms of understanding what grace is / who God is—that He can forgive sin. It's those teachable moments that we, because of our own fear, walk away from instead of walking into. Dennis: So, you're raising three teenage sons right now. Juli: Yes. Dennis: You would have that level of honesty. Juli: Yes, because they struggle: “All of us need the grace of God—me too—and this is how God has brought grace into my life, and I would love to see Him bring that grace into your life right now.” Bob: You mentioned that in the first decade of your marriage, this was not an area of marriage that was something that you'd say you were thriving in. 8:00 If you were doing a little sexual discipleship today with Juli Slattery—in year five of your marriage— Juli: Yes. Bob: —what questions would Juli be asking you, and what answers would you be giving her? Juli: I would say the two questions that I was asking at the time were: “Why did God make us so different? This would be so much better if we thought the same and wanted the same things.” And I would be asking, “Why did God make this more fun for men than He did for women?” It felt very much like this was my wifely duty. God has begun answering those questions for me, and it's a joy to pass those on to other women and other couples. You know, that first question of “Why did God make us so different?”—one of the things that I began to realize is that God cares a lot about how we love each other. He really cares that we become greater lovers, not selfish lovers. 9:00 As long as a husband and wife want the same things, they can be fulfilled by being selfish; but as soon as he wants something different than you want, for you both to be fulfilled, you have to learn to be servants and unselfish. God's begun teaching me the beauty of working through those frustrations and becoming unselfish so that you both can be fulfilled. That would be the answer to the first question. Then, the answer to the second question—boy, I was really messed up in my understanding of sexuality from a biblical perspective; because I think there is this Christian tradition, rather than biblical truth, that God has created sexuality for a man and the woman has that wifely duty. But when you read the Scripture; for example, 1 Corinthians 7—before it ever talks about a wife's duty to fulfill her husband's needs—it says, “The husband has the duty to fulfill his wife's needs.” 10:00 I think we skip right over that. We don't challenge men—to say, “Your wife is going to be a lot more complicated to figure out than you are; but God is charging you to learn about her sexuality, to learn how to please, to learn how to invite her into intimacy.” We don't talk that honestly about what the Scripture actually says. Dennis: I said earlier that one of the great needs in this sexual discipleship that needs to occur is that we need, as a couple—a husband and a wife—need to get away and get immersed in “What is the biblical plan for marriage?” and understand God's view of human sexuality and sex in marriage. And I just recommend what we've done at the Weekend to Remember® as an illustration of this, because we set the context for sex after about five hours of teaching at the Weekend to Remember marriage getaway. We don't move to sex right off the bat—we move to commitment; we talk about leaving, cleaving, becoming one; understanding communication; resolving conflict—before we come to the subject of human sexuality. 11:00 You indicated before we came on the broadcast today that you and your husband had been to a Weekend to Remember marriage getaway, and it had an impact in your life. Juli: It did. We, actually, have been to two of them. The first one was probably—we were only married for, I'd say, a year. The main thing I remember about that Weekend to Remember—hey, I remembered it! [Laughter] That was over 20 years ago, but I remember the Women-Only Session. I don't remember the name of the woman who was teaching, but she challenged women to take seriously the sexual aspect of marriage. That had a profound impact on me. Then, the second time we went to a Weekend to Remember was probably ten years later. Cliff and Joyce Penner were speakers at that conference. They speak very specifically about sexual intimacy and overcoming difficulty. 12:00 At that time in our marriage, we were encountering some difficulty. Their words really ministered to me personally and to us, as a couple. I love what you guys do with that Weekend to Remember. It is changing lives and marriages. It's a great resource. Dennis: And it just helps a couple to sit under the teaching of some folks who have done a pretty thorough job of researching the Bible and talking about these areas of marriage—the husband's responsibility, the wife's responsibility, conflict resolution, and how two people do develop their sexual relationship over a lifetime. This is something that isn't instant. I'll never forget what Barbara's mom said to her just a few weeks before we got married—she said, “Well, sweetheart, all I can tell you is—it gets better with time.” And you know, you think about that: “That's not a lot of words;— Juli: Yes. Dennis: —“but from a mom to a daughter, it's sweet. It authenticates it, and it blesses it.” 13:00 I think we have a generation of young people today who need that kind of godly counsel that blesses this area; because the world is, again, twisting and really trying to take it in another direction. Juli: And because the world is taking it in another direction, I think that the average Christian couple can't imagine God blessing anything sexual—where we see in the Song of Solomon that, actually, God is blessing this couple that is in the midst of sexual intimacy: “Eat friends. Drink. Imbibe deeply. Enjoy this because I gave this to you as a gift. Even if you've got all kinds of things in your past, bring those before Me / lay them before Me; and I bless what you have today within the confines of marriage.” Dennis: Yes. There is a great picnic in the Song of Solomon. Juli: There is—yes! Dennis: And if you've not read that, you need to read all the way through the book. Bob: And obey the Scriptures. [Laughter] 14:00 Now, we're talking to Dr. Juli Slattery. The book she's written is called 25 Questions You're Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex, and Intimacy. Juli, over the years, one of the things that has been a question that we've increasingly heard from women is, “I don't fit the stereotype.” The stereotype is the husband has the appetite for this area, and the wife doesn't. “In my marriage”—this wife will say to us—“it's the opposite. Is there something wrong with me, or what's wrong with him?” Juli: Yes. I would say that probably for couples that are in their 20s or 30s, that stereotype is actually even broken now; because it's so common now for the wife to want sexual intimacy more than the husband does. It's a new norm which is something that we increasingly hear as well. Bob: So, what's the deal? Why is it like that? And what do you say to a wife who says, “My husband just is not interested”? 15:00 Juli: It's difficult to have a cookie-cutter response to that, Bob, because I think that there are so many different reasons why that can be. Dennis: Right. Juli: For some couples, it's just their normal / it's their biology. It can be the fact that, in some cases, a woman has a higher than normal level of testosterone in her body. It can be personality. So, for some couples, you just have to say: “You know, this is our normal, and we don't need to compare ourselves to some stereotype. Let's just enjoy what we have together and work through it.” But there are also couples where there is something going on that needs to be addressed. A couple of the most common issues are—number one, pornography; and number two, I think, men not feeling like men in marriage. We'll talk about both of those for a second here. With pornography, what you have to understand is—pornography ruins your sexual appetite. It's almost as if you feed a kid, growing up, Doritos® and ice cream and then you put broccoli and chicken in front of them, they don't have an appetite for what's healthy. 16:00 That's what's happening with this whole generation of men related to pornography. They've been exposed to it from the time they were eight, or ten, or twelve and exposed repeatedly to the point where their brain cannot sexually respond to normal, healthy sexuality. In many cases, I think that's the issue—where men cannot respond to healthy, sexual intimacy; and also, it's safer for them to escape to fantasy or pornography rather than work through the issues with their wife. Bob: There is no rejection in pornography. Juli: Right. Bob: But in marriage, you face the potential of being turned away. Juli: And there's no work that you have to do with pornography—there is no waiting / there is no loving, and sacrifice, and communication. So, men are just going that route instead of working on true intimacy. Dennis: Yes; the command for husbands to understand their wives—it's not optional. Juli: No. Dennis: And this area, I think, points out to us how well we understand our wives or how little we understand our wives. 17:00 Bob: But you said it's not just pornography. There may be another factor that is draining the sexual interest away from a husband. Juli: Yes; I have found in working with couples that very often the pattern that's happening in the bedroom is mirroring the pattern that's happening in their emotional relationship. We're seeing more and more that women are getting married with a sense of confidence and competence and “I know where we're headed, and I have goals.” Men are more immature in terms of knowing who they are, what they want, and spiritually more immature. So, we have women really leading the family; and we have women that are critical of their husbands—almost treat them like little kids, like: “Pick up your socks,” and “Why did you do it this way?” That is going to bleed over into the bedroom. I think a lot of the reason we're seeing this dynamic is because men don't feel like men in their marriage. They feel like they are married to their mom, who is always criticizing and telling them how to do things. 18:00 That is going to flow over into sexual intimacy. So, now, the reason that is difficult to talk about these topics is—I would hate for the couple that has healthy, emotional intimacy—there is no pornography involved, but they still have this dynamic of the woman having a higher sex drive than the man—for them to feel paranoid—like: “Well, there must be something wrong with us.” But I would say—in probably 80 percent of those marriages, where there is this role reversal, there is something else going on—whether it's pornography, or maybe sexual abuse that a husband has in his past, or this pattern of a woman being a very dominant person in the family and the man becoming passive. Dennis: Comment on workaholism; because we live in a very fast-paced culture, where sometimes guys are just worn out from their jobs and they don't have a lot of energy. Bob: Guys and gals— 19:00 —I mean, it is husbands and wives getting together at ten o'clock, going: “I'm exhausted. Are you exhausted?” I just have to say here— there have been a few times when my wife said, “I thought you said you were exhausted;” and I said, “Well, I thought I was.” So, that—it doesn't always work that way, but what is this dynamic of how being exhausted can affect your intimate relationship? Juli: Yes; and the number one reason why women are not interested in sex is because of exhaustion. I think men are catching up with that in terms of just the levels of stress that they're dealing with— Dennis: Right. Juli: —the tiredness. That's all feeding into a lack of sexual interest as well. But I think the main point here is that most couples do not see their sexual relationship as a priority. Now, some guys are saying, “I sure do”; but I would say, in general, the average couple doesn't say, before the Lord, “This is something that we need to make a priority and work on.” Now, if you read 1 Corinthians 7, that passage is actually saying: 20:00 “This should be a priority. You should not be neglecting this area of your marriage. You should be working on making it fun and exciting for both of you.” When you don't make something a priority, you save the leftovers for it—so: “If we happen to have a little extra energy—both of us—at 10:30 at night, when we've worked all day and taken care of kids, maybe, we can enjoy each other.” Well, that's not going to happen. When you begin saying: “This is not only a priority for us in marriage, it's also a priority that God has given us in marriage,” you begin saying, “Okay; we've got to save some of the best of who we are to work on this—our energy, our time, our focus.” That can be a game changer. Dennis: And what we're talking about, Juli, is really a part of your concept called sexual discipleship, which is getting God's perspective on sex. I would just encourage our listeners: “If you want to begin that process, Juli's book, 25 Questions You're Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex, and Intimacy, would be a great way to start. 21:00 “And also, the Weekend to Remember marriage getaway—come as a couple—invest the weekend and have some good, honest and, maybe, hard, difficult conversations about the sexual dimension of your marriage relationship." I think you said it earlier—how did you say it?—about some areas are far too important to avoid? Juli: Yes; they are worth doing poorly. Dennis: Yes; that's true with our children as we educate them; and it's also true of us, as husbands and wives. We need to make sure we run the race together and end up at the finish line together. Bob: And that's what we're trying to point people to as they attend a Weekend to Remember marriage getaway. In fact, let me just remind listeners—if you have not been to a Weekend to Remember or, maybe, it's been—oh, I don't know—more than a decade since you came to a Weekend to Remember, what about this fall? You can sign up online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call if you have any questions at 1-800-FL-TODAY. 22:00 When you're on our website, be sure to get a copy of Dr. Juli Slattery's book, 25 Questions You're Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex, and Intimacy. You can order that from us at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” Now, if you've not yet started using the ten devotionals that we have put together to help us keep our hearts and minds anchored in who Christ is during times of instability, like we're in right now as a nation, let me point you to your smartphone. If you have the FamilyLife app, you can pull up these devotionals and use them at the dinner table or the breakfast table. Or if you'd prefer, you can download a PDF of these devotionals and use that. Go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, in order to download the PDF. Again, we hope these devotionals are something you can use as a family and that you'll find them helpful as they remind you of what is true in times of instability. 23:00 Now, “Happy anniversary!” today to Luis and Lidia Beltre, who live in Laurel, Maryland. The Beltres are celebrating eight years as husband and wife. And you know what? In eight years, they've already been to three Weekend to Remember getaways. They are also listeners to FamilyLife Today on WAVA, and they help support this ministry. Thank you for partnering with us as we seek to provide practical biblical help and hope for marriages and families, day in and day out, through this ministry. We're so grateful for your partnership with us. In fact, if there is any listener who would like to make a donation to help support this work and to invest in marriages and families, we'd love to say, “Thank you for your support today,” by sending you a banner that Barbara Rainey has created. It's a banner that declares your home is an embassy of the kingdom of heaven. That's our thank-you gift when you donate online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate; or when you mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223. 24:00 Now, tomorrow, we're going to hear about the breakthrough that happened in Juli Slattery's marriage when it came to the subject of intimacy and sex. She'll share that story tomorrow. Hope you can be here for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
Reading to Children (Part 1) - Sally Lloyd-JonesReading to Children (Part 2) - Sally Lloyd-JonesFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Reading to Children Guest: Sally Lloyd-Jones From the series: Telling Stories to Children (Day 2 of 2) Bob: Do you read stories to your children? Do you read Bible stories to them? Sally Lloyd-Jones has a caution for you. Sally: Whenever we read a story and then we say, “Well, what that story's about…”—whatever we put on the other side of “about”—that becomes the only thing that story's about. The minute we do that—it's terrible / it's the worst thing you could ever say. I'm passionate about that because of what that does—is, basically, you've decided what that story is about / you've decided what God might want to say to that child—but what if God wants to say something completely different? Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Friday, December 8th. Our host is Dennis Rainey; I'm Bob Lepine. There is great power in telling good stories. We'll hear from a great story-teller today, Sally Lloyd-Jones. Stay with us. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Friday edition. We're having a delightful time this week with a delightful friend. 1:00 Before we introduce her again, we're in the final weeks of the year. This is a pretty important, pretty strategic time for us as a ministry. Dennis: It is! I'll tell you something that delights me—I love hearing from listeners. I heard, recently, from a single mom who said our broadcast gives her hope every day to keep on keeping on. Here's one from somebody who struggled through the heartbreak of a divorce and a broken family—she said: “It helped me grow in Christ immensely.” And then one other: “Our marriage was falling apart. I started listening, daily, to FamilyLife Today. The information I received gave me the strength to fight for my marriage.” We have a lot of folks, Bob, who are finding help and hope for their marriage and family. But in order for us to do that, we need listeners to step up and say: “I want to stand with you guys as you guys proclaim the biblical blueprints for a marriage and a family. You're ministering to marriages and families and leaving legacies, all across the nation and all around the globe.” 2:00 Would you stand with us right now? Bob: It's easy to make a yearend contribution. You can do it, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. There's a matching-gift opportunity that's in effect so, when you give your donation, it's going to be doubled—the impact of your giving will be doubled. You'll help us reach more people in 2018 and that's our goal—is to reach more people with practical biblical help and hope. Again, you can donate, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Now, back to our conversation with our guest, Sally Lloyd-Jones. We've been talking about holidays; we've been talking about family, and fun, and about food. In fact, you don't think there can be good Christmas food in Great Britain. When you were over there, you thought all the food was horrible; right? Dennis: “I was trying to find out a way to get across the English Channel to get to France.” [Laughter] Bob: Have you watched The Great British Bake Off? Have you watched that show? Dennis: I have not, Bob. Bob: Have you watched it? Sally: Yes; everyone's obsessed! 3:00 Bob: I know, it's amazing; isn't it? Dennis: Bob, I'm concerned about you—you're watching The British Bake Off! Bob: The Great British Bake Off is a great reality show. Barbara, you would love The Great British Bake Off. Barbara: I would? Okay. Bob: So, make Dennis watch it. Dennis: No; she wouldn't; she does not like to cook! [Laughter] Barbara: I enjoy watching other people cook. Bob: That's exactly the point. Sally: That's perfectly fine with me! Dennis: I do want to welcome Sally Lloyd-Jones back to the broadcast. Welcome back. Sally: Thank you so much. Dennis: We're thrilled to have you. She was born and raised in Africa, schooled in England, lives in New York City, but will celebrate Christmas back in England— Barbara: —eating figgy pudding—we found out. Dennis: —eating figgy pudding. Bob: That's right! Dennis: She is a great author. She's written a number of best-selling books, including The Jesus Storybook Bible, Song of the Stars, and one we are going to talk about today called, Found, which is the 23rd Psalm. And then a book about a child's identity, and his voice in this world their living in. How many books have you written? Sally: Over 25. I had to count them up the other day. Barbara: Wow! Dennis: Yes? That's amazing! 4:00 Your whole journey started out writing books for children when you were a little girl and you read a book that opened your mind and your heart to a whole new world with books. Sally: Yes! When I was about seven, I thought books were to learn, to be serious, [and] to do at school. I wasn't a child that really thrived at school—I was a bit dreamy. I was given this book called The Complete Nonsense by Edward Lear. In England, a lot of people know that book; but they may not in America—he's not quite so well-known here. But I'd advise everyone to get that book! I'm not getting anything—it sounds like I'm getting referrals—but I'm not! I'm just passionate about it. The reason I am is that it changed everything. I got this book, and it was the first book I had ever read all the way through—I was seven. I opened up the book and there were these insane, in a good way, crazy limericks about people with long noses and great, long beards and birds that nested in the beards and then he did all the drawings in pen himself. They were completely like just zany! 5:00 It was a revelation. I had no idea you could have so much fun inside a book. It changed everything. From then on, I wrote limericks and illustrations and then inflicted them on my poor friends and family. The reason I tell that story is that they often say that whatever you were doing when you were maybe six—five or six or seven—before you became self-conscious, and you became what you thought everyone wanted you to be—whatever you loved doing at that point, often clues you in to what should be in your life, whether it's your job or a hobby. For me, it's been proven so true. I was loving this book that was so much fun and having fun inside books; and now, all these years later—it took a long time and a long journey / and very twisty—but here I am, all these years later, basically having fun inside books, and hoping that I can get children to have fun inside books. Dennis: Inviting them to the party! Sally: Yes! Exactly, and realizing laughter—that's such a gift that God's given us. 6:00 Bob: You had an experience where you were telling a Bible story to a group of children, and it changed your thinking about how to tell stories to them. Sally: Yes; yes. I like to tell this story on myself, because I don't ever want anyone to think I think of myself as an expert. I'm learning every time I read to children. This particular time, I was invited to a Sunday school; and I was reading from The Jesus Storybook Bible—it was probably about like six years ago. I'm very good at getting children out of control—I think that's part of my job, getting them laughing—but I'm not so good at getting them under control. The Sunday school teacher had wandered away; so I read this whole story, Daniel and the Scary Sleepover. The story was all about Daniel and how he was obedient, even though he might be punished and killed; and that, one day, God was going to send another hero, who would again be willing to do whatever God told Him, no matter what it cost Him—that's how the story ends. While I'm reading this story, there's this young girl—she's probably about six—she's kneeling up. As I'm telling this story, she's so engaged—she's almost trying to get into my lap—she's so engaged. At the end of the story, I panicked; because there was no teacher, I thought, “I have to say something.” 7:00 So, I went: “So, children,”—and I was horrified to hear this come out of my mouth—I said: “So children, what can we learn about how God wants us to behave?” As I said those words, the little girl—she physically slumped / her head bowed, and she slumped. I have never forgotten it, because I think that is a picture of what happens to a child when we make a story into a sermon. Because I said that question at the end of the story, I basically made that story all about her instead of pointing to Jesus. The minute we do that, we leave the child in despair; because we don't need to be told to do it better. If we could do it better, Jesus never needed to have come. The story of Daniel is there—not to tell us what we should be doing—it's to tell us: “Look, this is what God is going to do. God is going to bring someone, who is not going to be saved at the last minute, who is going to actually die to rescue us; and that's the most incredible story.” I've learned from that. 8:00 I have never forgotten it; because whenever we read a story; and then we say: “Well, what that story's about…”—whatever we put on the other side of “about” is basically what we lead the child with—that becomes the only thing the story is about. Bob: To say: “The moral of the story is…” Sally: Is the worst thing you could ever say. I'm passionate about that!—it's terrible. Bob: But don't you want kids to get it? Sally: You do; but what that does is—basically, you've decided what that story is about/ you've decided what God might want to say to that child—but what if God wants to say something completely different? It puts too much power in our hands. It would be much better to leave the story, because I believe the story is a seed—it grows when it's left alone. It may take years for us to see the fruit of it. We may not see it growing; but that's what a seed does—it grows in the dark. It's almost, I think, none of our business. If we read a good story to a child, it's between the child and the Holy Spirit what happens with that seed. 9:00 It's not that we shouldn't ask questions; it's just that I think we need to be careful not to reduce the story down into a moral lesson, because there's a place for moral lessons. But stories are so much more powerful, because they can transform your heart. A lesson doesn't usually—like a moral lesson often leaves you feeling like the little girl—she felt in despair; because it was suddenly like: “God isn't pleased with you, because you're not as brave as Daniel,”—that's what I used to think, as a child. People often say: “Well, if you can't ask, ‘What is the moral of the lesson?' what can you ask?”—because, sometimes, you need a question. I always say, “What about if you, with the child”—like it's you are on the same level with the child, as if you're kneeling together before our Heavenly Father; because we are all children before Him—“What if you read the story together?”—coming together, not as you as the teacher, but as you and the child as children of God. You listen to the story and then you go: “Wow!” and you wonder, aloud, and you say something like—say, with the story of the feeding of the 5,000—instead of saying, “Well, children, what can we learn about sharing our lunch?”— 10:00 —you say, “The boy gave Jesus everything he had. I wonder what would happen if we gave Jesus everything we have?” and you leave it open. Suddenly, that becomes completely open; and the child's imagination can soar with that. That's a question I think that's a good thing to ask; but it's not trying to teach a lesson. Bob: Part of what you do in that question is—you put the focus on what God can do— Sally: Yes! Bob: —rather than what we're supposed to do. Sally: Amen, because then there's hope. We need to give children hope; don't we? They obviously need guidance, and there's a place for teaching and rules. I just think the story time is sacrosanct. We should come together, before our Heavenly Father, and wonder together. Bob: So when you approach writing a story like, Baby Wren and the Great Gift, which is not overtly a Christian story / no Bible verses in it—do you approach that differently than when you are writing something for The Jesus Storybook Bible? 11:00 Sally: The helpful thing about The Jesus Storybook Bible is the plot‘s already worked out. [Laughter] Bob: The story's already there; yes. Sally: So with Baby Wren, I try and “be someone on whom nothing is lost.” I think Henry James said that—I may have got that wrong—“be someone on whom nothing is lost.” I'm always open; and that book—what I have learned with books is—an idea will come from anywhere; but when it comes and it hits me in a poignant way, or it makes me laugh, or does something with my heart, I've learned to listen; because I realize, “Okay; I think that's God working to show me there's something here that I need to follow.” I don't always know what the story is—but with Baby Wren and the Great Gift, the thing that struck me was—I was in Texas at Laity Lodge. There was this little wren called a canyon wren. Literally, one time, I was just hearing this huge song; and I said, “What on earth is that?” And they said: “Oh, that's the canyon wren. You never see it—it's too tiny to notice—and yet, look at its great song.” 12:00 That idea started playing in my head. I started thinking: “That's like a child. A child is only small, and they have so many insecurities; and where do they belong in the big world?”—that's where the book came from. That wasn't really me setting out with a message—it was me responding to a clue I was given and then following clues. That's how I think the books come. I trust the Lord with that; because, if the joy and redemption are at the center of my life, they are going to be in my books—I won't be able to help it. In a way, that frees me to trust the Lord—that my passion is to bless children with the truth and with hope. That can come in the form of pre-evangelistic—it can be like Emily Dickinson said, “Tell all of the truth, but tell it slant.” The thing about the story is—you're not coming at it, head on, like you are with The Jesus Storybook Bible—but even there, it's a story. Every time you tell a story, what happens is—it captures your heart. It doesn't come at you with rules and lessons; it comes around the side and it captures your heart. I just basically trust that, “If something moves me, that's something I need to listen to.” 13:00 Dennis: I think you're exhorting us, as adults, as we tell stories to kids, “Let's leave room for imagination.” Sally: Yes; that's really well-put. Dennis: Comment, if you would, on your children's book called Found. Bob: You said that's an edible book; right? Sally: Yes! It's The Jesus Storybook Bible—the edible version. [Laughter] Basically, it's a padded board book. The board book is one of those books that toddlers cannot rip. Barbara: They can chew on. Sally: They can chew on and not destroy— Dennis: Oh! Okay. Sally: —because, when you are a baby, you don't read them; you eat them. Dennis: You are going all the way through the 23rd Psalm and just unpacking it, verse by verse. Sally: Yes; it's the same version as in The Jesus Storybook Bible. We re-illustrated it—we have given it like 12 spreads, I think. If you put, individually, one line on a page and then you illustrate it, you give space to the whole psalm. Jago has done the most incredible job of—what we talk about in picture books, you have to have heart—you have to have it in the text, and you have to have it in the art. 14:00 That's an indefinable thing; but you know when you haven't got it, and you know when you get it. Dennis: Well, you've got it; because here's the—I guess, almost halfway through the book—“…even when I walk through the dark, scary, lonely places…”—there's a lonely lamb in a valley with a rainstorm. Barbara: That's my favorite spread. Dennis: It is mine too. Barbara: Because that little lamb—it's just so representative of, not just children, but all of us. Sally: Yes. Barbara: He looks so alone, and I think that just captures what we all feel that the 23rd Psalm speaks to. Sally: You know what's interesting? It's children's favorite spread, as well. Barbara: Oh, is it? Sally: They will always go there no matter how tiny they are. I think that's fascinating; because, again, we try and—it's appropriate to protect children—but we have to be sure that we are equipping them as well. Little ones know that not everything is right out there. Whether or not we're telling them, they know—so the more that you give them a safe place— 15:00 —that's why I think they love that spread, because they're looking at something scary, which they know exists; but they are doing it with you, they're doing it with the lamb, and together you're going to get through this story. It's very important that we let them look at the dark, not just the light, obviously, in an age-appropriate way; but I think that's why it's powerful to them. Dennis: Yes; and then the next page, of course, it says, “I won't be afraid, because my Shepherd knows where I am.” Sally: And he's panned out; hasn't he? He's panned out, and you see that he wasn't alone—the shepherd was running. The look on the shepherd's face—again, heart—it's just so—it's poignant to me. When I saw the illustrations, I was just blown away. Dennis: Sally, I want to ask you for a book that you've never written / a book that has never been illustrated, but it's a story that is a book in your mind that you love to tell children. Bob: Are you looking for a scoop here? You trying to get— Sally: Yes; I mean, gosh! [Laughter] Yes; I know he's trying! He's got a notebook—I can see it!—and a recorder. [Laughter] Dennis: I've already got the publisher lined up, fellas! [Laughter] 16:00 No; I just have to believe that you've got a few tucked away that you've never put on parchment—it's just a favorite of yours. I'd be interested if you wouldn't mind telling it to our audience here. Sally: Oh my; I've gone completely blank. Dennis: Have you?! Sally: Yes; performance anxiety, you see. [Laughter] I need to skip to the loo. Maybe I'll think about it. Dennis: Okay! We can come back at the end of the broadcast, and you can tell a story. Sally: Yes; okay; okay. Bob: Barbara, as you look at books and their illustrations, you recognize the power that comes. I mean, Sally's prose is beautiful prose; but let's be honest—the book, Found, is what?—maybe 40 words?—maybe 50 words?—and well-chosen words. The illustrations are what give the words a context and a texture that bring it alive. Barbara: I always looked for books for my kids that had beautiful illustrations. To me, that was as important as the story— Sally: Oh, dear; yes. Barbara: —because I loved the illustrations as much as my kids did. 17:00 It allowed the story to come alive at a level that the words couldn't do on their own— Sally: No. Barbara: —because the illustrations support it / they give it life. They make it three-dimensional. As you said, with that center spread of the rainstorm, it takes you to that place that the words alone can't do. Sally: Yes; that's true. Barbara: I just think illustrations are powerful in books. Sally: Yes! I love hearing that. I feel the same way. I also think design—you know, like the cover—so much goes into a picture book. What you said is so true; because a picture book is a story told in two languages, word and image. The best picture books are when, as a publisher of mine said: “One plus one equals more than two. Neither of them would work without each other.” Also, what you want is that it should look as if the person, who illustrated it, wrote it; and the person who wrote it, illustrated it—they should have the same voice. Barbara: They both have a message too. The words alone don't say what the pictures alone say. They work together so that the whole thing is a much greater package, as you were explaining. 18:00 And it's a gift. When you get a book like that, you feel like it's a treasure. Your anticipation is greater when you get a— Sally: It's true, because it's beautiful. Barbara: —beautiful book than [when] you just get a book. Sally: Another thing I'm passionate about is—beauty honors God— Barbara: Absolutely! Sally: —when we do something beautiful. I also think it reaches everyone—beauty calls to everyone. Our job is to be as excellent as we can be; because beauty honors Him, and it also—it just takes away the obstacles. Like I was describing with the design: “If it's really well-designed, there's no obstacle to the story.” I think my job is always to get out of the way and let the story through. If you are a good designer, get out of the way and let the story through; and if you're an illustrator... Bob: At what age do kids move beyond you? Sally: Never! I collect picture books, and I never grow out of them. They're an art form that—well, C.S. Lewis said it; didn't he?—when he dedicated— Barbara: He did! I was just thinking about his— Sally: Yes! You probably remember it better, but I can't remember exactly the words. 19:00 Barbara: I don't remember exactly how he said it either. Sally: He dedicated it to his—to Lucy—he said, “You're too old for fairy tales, but you'll grow up and become young enough,”—or something like that. Barbara: He also said something about “A book that's good for children is good for adults,”—if it's good enough for them, then it should speak to all ages. Sally: Like “There is no book that's only for children,”—is what he said—“only good for children; because, if it's not good enough for children, it's not”—something—we're really massacring this quote; aren't we?! [Laughter] Barbara: I know! That is the idea—I've always loved that quote. Bob: Have you ever had a desire to write young adult fiction?—or to write a novel? Sally: Well, sometimes, I think about that; but then I think I'm already reaching adults in the best way, by reaching children. Bob: Yes. Sally: I just love the idea that they—you know, like Found, or Baby Wren, or Song of the Stars—they're books designed to read together; and the sound of the language—C.S. Lewis, again, said, “You should write for the ear as well as the eye.” Barbara: Right. Bob: And most of the books on my bookshelf have been read once, if they've been read at all. 20:00 Sally: Isn't that the truth? There, again—you see? Bob: But children's books? Sally: Children's books— Barbara: —over and over. Bob: —books get read. I mean, we could almost recite Goodnight, Moon; can't we? Sally: Oh; I mean, it's a genius book; and it's so deceptively simple; isn't it? Bob: Yes; yes. Dennis: It is! So, I've stalled here for you. Sally: Oh, dear; you did, and I still haven't got that story. Well, I think the thing is—my stories—I may have them; but they are sort of, again, a bit like seeds. I never quite know what they are—I have to keep following them. I have lots in process but not—I don't know—if I've got one ready to tell, I usually do it— Barbara: So you have lots of ideas, but they haven't been developed yet. Sally: Yes; like picture books—I can have an idea that can sort of—I was going to say “vegetate”—that's not the right word; is it? Barbara: —germinate. [Laughter] Sally: —germinate / vegetate doesn't sound nice—germinate—thank you!—for several years. I find that's the best way; because, again, following clues—I follow clues. Sometimes—I'm working on a middle-grade novel; but I—you know, sometimes, you don't actually want to talk about the book until it's done; because, if you talk about it, you've kind of told the story and you take away the energy you need to finish it. 21:00 So, that's a good excuse; isn't it? [Laughter] Dennis: It really is! Sally: You can't say anything now. Barbara: It works; it works! Dennis: I just hope you‘ll come back, Sally: I'd love to come back; it's always so fun! Dennis: So, you just need to know—Bob is a “foodie.” So, next time you come back, bring bread crumbs and— Sally and Barbara: —figgy pudding. Dennis: —figgy pudding! Sally: Well, I might send you a figgy pudding. Bob: I'm waiting for it; yes. Sally: No; he looks like it's a threat! [Laughter] I might send it to you, and you might have to eat it on air! Bob: I will—I will eat your figgy pudding. Barbara: If you send it, we will have to taste it for sure, after all of that! Sally: Okay. Bob: Then, I'll let you know whether to send me anymore after that. [Laughter] Dennis: That's right! I will—if I eat it, and I like it—I will repent of all my—not all—but some of my comments about English food. [Laughter] Sally: I think you're just really jealous of England really; aren't you? Dennis: Oh, I do love England! Barbara: We really do love England. Dennis: I do! We had a delightful time. Sally: You're right. English food—you don't really see English food restaurants. Although, you do in New York—fish ‘n chips / Toad in the Hole! Now, I'm really confusing you! [Laughter] Dennis: No; no. I know—[Laughter] 22:00 Bob: By the way, we have none of that in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center; but we do have some of Sally's books. Dennis: Toad in the hole? We've got some of that; don't we? Bob: It's not in the FamilyLife Today Resource Center. [Laughter] You can go, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com to find out more about the books that Sally has written for children: the Christmas story—Song of the Stars; the 23rd Psalm book called Found; and of course, The Jesus Storybook Bible. We've got all of those available, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to order at 1-800- FL-TODAY. We've also got the resources Barbara Rainey has worked on for the holiday season for families, including her new set of Christmas tree ornaments that reflect the Eternal Names of Jesus. Find out more about those when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Or call if you have any questions: 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” 23:00 Now, as Dennis mentioned earlier, this is a significant time of year for this ministry. We're hoping to hear from listeners to take advantage of a matching-gift opportunity that has been made available to us. Our friend, Michelle Hill, who is the host of FamilyLife This Week, is keeping us up to date this month on all that's going on with the matching gift. Hi, Michelle! 23:21 Michelle: Hi Bob J yeah, what's happened is pretty simple…and very generous. Some friends of FamilyLife offered to match every donation in December, so yesterday…when Leona from Pennsylvania called in? Our friends matched Leona's gift, dollar for dollar! Simple! Your gifts are being matched all December, up to a total of two million dollars, and Bob? As of today, our listeners have given just over three hundred six thousand dollars…which is REALLY encouraging! Bob: It is indeed! You can donate, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. Or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. 24:00 And we hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able to worship together in your local church this weekend, and I hope you can join us back on Monday. John Stonestreet will be here to talk about how we can raise children in a culture that does not always support what we believe. Hope you can be with us as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry.Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
Reading to Children (Part 1) - Sally Lloyd-JonesReading to Children (Part 2) - Sally Lloyd-JonesFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. God Breaking into History Guest: Sally Lloyd-Jones From the series: Telling Stories to Children (Day 1 of 2) Bob: One of the challenges that families often face during the Christmas season is how to or even whether to blend in the holiday traditions with the biblical story of Christmas. Here's some thoughts from author, Sally Lloyd-Jones. Sally: You know, I became a Christian when I was four. I am sure, the first four years of my life, we were—it was more Santa Claus. Father Christmas was the big person looming in your life when you're little. I suppose the excitement of: “He's coming!” and everything like that—that's not so dissimilar to what you—actually, is the truth of Christmas. It's exciting; because your rescuer is coming, which is much more exciting than “Santa's coming with presents.” Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, December 7th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. Sally Lloyd-Jones joins us today to talk about how we keep Jesus at the center of the Christmas season. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. Dennis: How's your English accent, Bob? [Laughter] Bob: Terrible. [Laughter] Dennis: You have a great impersonation of Jerry Falwell. Bob: Yes; but— Dennis: Can I hear your Sally Lloyd-Jones? [Laughter] Bob: I'm not that clever! [Laughter] No; mine would be [speaking with English accent]: Look at her, a person of the gutters, Condemned by every syllable she utters. By right, she ought to be taken out and hung For the cold-blooded murder of the English tongue! Sally: That's brilliant. Bob: Thank you. Barbara: I know that one. Bob: Do you? Barbara: I watched that over, and over, and over. Bob: That's Henry Higgins. Don't you know Henry Higgins? Sally: Of course! I was just testing. [Laughter] Bob: If you could have anybody come to your house and tell the Christmas story to your kids at Christmas time, who would—wouldn't you want Sally Lloyd-Jones coming and telling the Christmas story to your kids? Dennis: I think a wonderful story I'd love to hear—just to hear George tell the Christmas story. Barbara: Oh, A Wonderful Life! [Laughter] Bob: George Bailey? Dennis: Yes! Bob: [Imitating George Bailey] “Help me, Clarence. Help me! [Laughter] Get me out of here!” Sally: He's very good; isn't he? 2:00 Bob: [Imitating George Bailey] “Get me back to my wife and kids!” Sally: You love films, I guess. Bob: I do; I do. Dennis: When it's Christmas time—this happens to Bob every 11 months—so just put up with it if you would. [Laughter] I just introduced, very casually there, Sally Lloyd-Jones, who joins us again on FamilyLife Today. She was born and raised in Africa, schooled in England, lives in New York City. She is the New York Times author of a bestselling book—one of them she has written is called The Jesus Storybook Bible. Bob: I think everybody listening to FamilyLife Today has The Jesus Storybook Bible—feels like. How many copies? Sally: Two point five million. Barbara: Then I think you're right—it is everybody. Bob: Everybody I run into— Barbara: I have one, and I don't have children at home. I have mine marked—I love it! [Laughter] Sally: Oh. The most exciting thing to me is its now in 34 languages. Bob: Oh, that's wonderful. Dennis: That's cool! Barbara: Wow! Dennis: What's your favorite language out of those 34? 3:00 Sally: Well, I'm really excited about Arabic—it's just been translated into Arabic. What I love to say is, “I wrote a book I can't read,”—[Laughter]—actually, three of them! Dennis: And is it in Mandarin? Sally: I think it is. Bob: That's great! Dennis: That reaches a few people too. Also joining us is my wife Barbara. Tell them about Sally's book that we're also talking about this Christmas. Barbara: We're talking about this book that she wrote for children for Christmas: Song of the Stars: A Christmas Story. I just think it's a great idea to have books to read to your kids during the different seasons, because we have all these traditions that we do. I remember when we were raising our kids—there were certain books that we read, every season, that were favorites. I think this one will become a favorite of many families to read, year after year, with your children. Bob: We had, in our library at home, it was called The Holiday Story Book. There were stories for every holiday of the year. So you'd open it and read one for Valentine's Day or whatever. I never read any of them except the Christmas one. I remember it was a story of a car in an old car lot that was sitting there. 4:00 Nobody wanted to buy this old car—it was a clunker and barely ran. Apparently, as I remember it, Santa's sleigh malfunctioned right over the car lot; and he had to hook up the reindeer to the car. Sally: That's very good. Bob: All of a sudden, this old clunker of a car became Santa's sleigh for the holidays. There was something about reading it that was kind of my Christmas rituals to get me ready for the holidays. Barbara: It had a bit of a redemption story to it—that's why it rang true. Bob: There is something about story, at Christmastime, and the opportunity for parents to engage with their children around the Christmas story, that is meaningful on a whole variety of levels; isn't it? Sally: Yes; I love that tradition—like Barbara said. We love traditions; don't we? Dennis: Yes. Sally: I love—you know, that we have several days before Christmas to get ready for Christmas. You have lots of opportunities. Dennis: So how will you spend Christmas in New York City? Sally: Well, the thing is—I end up in England, really—so I never have been in New York on Christmas day. Dennis: Oh, New York City is delightful that time of year! Sally: Yes. Dennis: I mean, Barbara and I have been there. There is definitely a nip in the air. That city is— Sally: Oh, it's magical. 5:00 Barbara: It is magical. Dennis: It's dressed up—it is really dressed up. Sally: And again, talk about traditions—you have The Nutcracker you can go to every year. Dennis: Yes. Sally: You know, The Messiah— Dennis: Yes. Sally: —all these lovely things. In England, one of the traditions that's one of my favorites is Kings College Choir carols on Christmas Eve. Barbara: That would be wonderful. Sally: It's broadcast on the radio. Apparently, it's been broadcast since like, I think, the war—or even before. One of the stories I love is that—it's a boy choir / a male voice choir. They have little boys who might be six/seven. The whole broadcast begins with Once in Royal David's City; but the first verse is sung so low by one of the youngest boys. So they don't get completely freaked out—the choir master chooses three boys and trains them. Just like maybe seconds before the broadcast begins, he taps the boy that he's chosen on the head and he sings it; and he has no chance to get nervous. [Laughter] Dennis: Are you kidding me?! All three of them will get nervous! [Laughter] Sally: Yes; right! [Laughter] But it's so beautiful—that voice—the pure voice of a young boy singing Once in Royal David's City and the acoustics—to me, that's one of the high points of Christmas. 6:00 Dennis: So what do you do in England for Christmas? Tell us how you celebrate. Sally: You know, we do have the edge on everyone; because we know how to do Christmas. [Laughter] Dennis: What's that?! Barbara: What is that edge? Yes; I want to know. Sally: Because we have Christmas pudding—figgy pudding as Dickens would call it. Bob: Yes. Dennis: Hold it; hold it! What's that made of?—Christmas pudding? Sally: It's sounds horrid, but it's delicious. I'm going to describe it, but you have to realize it's delicious. Bob: Okay. Sally: It's got currents, raisins—see, your faces already— Barbara: No; so far, so good—I love currents and raisins. Dennis: Yes. Sally: It's got some liquor in it, but it gets burned away. [Laughter] Dennis: This is why the English like it!! [Laughter] Sally: And you have it with brandy butter. Oh, yes, there's a lot of liquor in it. [Laughter] Dennis: You've got brandy in it! Sally: Is this allowed on your program? Dennis: That's what you have to do with your food in England. [Laughter] 7:00 Sally: It's a merry Christmas. [Laughter] Dennis: I'm sorry—I'm really sorry for that. We've been to England and your food—you got to cross the— Barbara: —the Channel. Dennis: —the English Channel— Sally: But then, we also wear hats at Christmas—crowns / the paper crowns that come out of Christmas crackers. Now, you're really lost; aren't you? Christmas crackers—I don't even know how to describe them. Barbara: I know what they are. Sally: You pull them, and they bang, and inside is a hat and a present. Then, we drop everything at 3:00—we go and listen to the Queen's speech— Bob: On Christmas Day? Sally: —on Christmas Day. So, wherever you are with your Christmas meal, you stop everything—go and watch the Queen give a speech. She gives this incredible speech. You know, you have to really be reverent. Sometimes, the grandchildren are doing terribly naughty things, and my mother gives them a look. We all have to stand up when the anthem happens. This has happened— Barbara: —forever. Sally: —forever and ever. Barbara: How long does— Dennis: What does she speak on? I mean— Barbara: That's what I want to know. How long— Sally: She's amazing, actually. I mean, I'm a huge fan. If you think about how faithful she has been for how long— Dennis: Oh, yes. Sally: Her whole idea about duty versus—you know—of course, I am a big fan of The Crown. Did you watch The Crown? Barbara: Oh, yes, we did. It was wonderful. Sally: I'm sorry; I'm going all over the place. Dennis: Oh, yes; we did. That was very good. 8:00 Barbara: We thought it was— Sally: I'm mad on it, because you really believe Claire Foy is Queen. Dennis: You're mad about it? Sally: Mad, in a British way, is— Barbara: —is crazy! Sally: —crazy. Dennis: I knew what you said! [Laughter] Bob: Here's my question for you— Sally: They are very naughty, these people! [Laughter] Bob: I want to know, if we could invite you over to everybody's house to tell the Christmas story to our kids and grandkids, would you just pull out your book and read it to them?—or how would you engage a child in the story / the biblical story of Christmas if you were sitting down with them? 9:00 Sally: Well, I like, sometimes, to say, “When does Christmas begin?” and get them to sort of—it's always good to ask them a question; because what you want to do is get them—as they say, you're tuning your audience. Sometimes, I'll resort to pantomime effects—so you'll say/ask them a question; and they'll answer. You say: “I am sorry I can't hear you. Could you say it louder?”—until they are shouting. Then, if you've got parents there as well, you set up parents against the children. That way you have them where you want them. And then I would say to them, “So, when do you think Christmas begins?” and they'll tell you, “When the star goes in the sky,” “When Jesus is born,” “When…”—whatever they're going to say. Hopefully, they won't / none of them will say: “Actually, it begins even before there were stars in the sky / it begins even before there was anything. Before anything was there, God had a dream in His heart; and Christmas began in that dream,” and start there, because it's not expected. I always think the most important thing is to set up the longing and expectation, so that when Christmas day comes, we don't just go, “Oh, it's any old day.” We get the sense that God's people were waiting, for thousands of years, for this and that this was a promise fulfilled. It's not just a sweet story—it's the most incredible thing about God breaking into history. 10:00 Bob: When you think about communicating biblical truth to kids, you want to make sure that the story is in a very broad context, not just an isolated story. Why is that? Sally: I find that's how my heart gets got. If I see it in the big scope / if I see that none of this is just happenstance—it's all a plan and that it started with God's—just the idea that God was planning to bless us before He made us, and He knew it would all go wrong; but He still made us—that's what melts my heart. I think that's the truth in the Bible; isn't it? If you just take one story at a time, they're wonderful; but it's when you see them in the context of the big story and you see that it's a love story, that's when your heart gets changed. Dennis: When you were a little girl, do you remember the time when Christmas, the story of Christmas, grabbed your heart and captured your imagination? Sally: I don't know if I remember exactly that. I knew I loved Christmas and I loved the fact that I knew Jesus was my best friend always, ever since I was four. 11:00 Dennis: You didn't just celebrate Christmas in England, at that point; you went back to— Sally: We were in Africa. Dennis: —Africa. Sally: So, we were having—I don't know if we were still doing hats, and eating Christmas pudding, and all that stuff. We probably went to the beach. I think that's what we did on Christmas Day. Dennis: So what country? Sally: Uganda. First of all, Kampala; and then we moved to Nairobi and Kenya. So, Christmas, for me, was amidst wild animals and jungles, and that kind of—savannahs and stuff— Bob: In a tropical climate, not where there's snow falling. Sally: No. And I do remember—actually, the first thing I do remember, when I came to England, was the first time I saw snow. I thought it was ice cream coming down. [Laughter] Barbara: And you were how old? Sally: I was probably six. Barbara: Oh, amazing. Bob: So, did the biblical story of Christmas compete in your heart with the traditions of Christmas?—with St. Nicholas, with Santa Claus, with all of that? Sally: Yes; I mean, Father Christmas was the big person looming in your life when you're little. 12:00 And you know, I became a Christian when I was four; so I'm sure, the first four years of my life, we were—it was more Santa Claus. But there's something—I know there are big debates about whether you should have Santa Claus. I didn't find it harmful at all. I never thought anything other than it was—I mean, I remember being devastated when I found out he wasn't real; but I soon got over it. Bob: So you were able to separate that that was fantasy and that the biblical story was history. Sally: Yes; yes. I didn't find that confusing. Bob: Why do you think that was clear to you? Sally: Because I suppose—I'd met Jesus and I knew He was my best friend—I wouldn't want it any other way. There was something lovely about it—you know, the whole excitement. I suppose the excitement of, “He's coming,” and everything like that—that's not so dissimilar to what you—actually, is the truth of Christmas—it's exciting because your rescue is coming, which is much more exciting than, “Santa's coming with presents.” Dennis: And He's coming back! Sally: Yes; yes! Dennis: Not just His first advent— Sally: Exactly. Dennis: —but because the first Christmas occurred, we can look forward to His second advent. 13:00 Sally: Yes; and that is deep in us; isn't it?—that longing for Him to come. Dennis: It really is. Tell us how this book, A Song of the Stars: A Christmas Story, how it captures Christmas to young people. Sally: Well, it's interesting; because that one came because—as I was saying, I was in Africa as a little one. You know, my Christmas was in the wilds of Africa, and there's no snow on the rooftops; but Christmas was coming. I was thinking—we know the story of Bethlehem and how it's so busy and no one noticed Jesus and Mary and Joseph—but I was thinking about the animals and back to my childhood in Africa. I was thinking, “What if the animals knew, and the stars knew, and all the…” because they don't have an argument with their Maker. We're the only ones who have an argument with our Maker. Dennis: [Laughter] That's exactly right. Sally: And they're suffering; aren't they? Barbara: Right; because of us. Sally: They're suffering because of our sin and the fall, but why wouldn't they have known? 14:00 So I thought, “Well, what if,”—and again, going back to that longing of, “He's coming,”—I thought, “What if, that night, people didn't know because they were too busy; but what if the animals did?”—that's where this book came from. There's a refrain: “It's time. It's time. At last, He's coming!” Barbara: I love that. Bob: Barbara, did you have a hard time, when your kids were little, with the competition between the cultural trappings of Christmas and the spiritual message of Christmas? Barbara: I don't know that we had a hard time as much as we just did—we were very intentional about teaching what Christmas was about. We wanted our kids to understand that it was about Jesus and it was about His birth. We made putting the manger scene up sort of the focal point; but we didn't dismiss Santa, and stockings, and things; because it was fun to pretend and do make-believe. We did all of that; but it was secondary to the real reason for Christmas so that, when our kids found out, I don't think they were devastated. Sally: What was central was the truth. 15:00 Barbara: Right, and I remember being disappointed, when I was a child, finding out that Santa wasn't real; but I don't think our kids were disappointed. I think they always knew that this story about Jesus was what it was really about. This [Santa] was just play—this was fun / this was pretend, and we all enjoyed it—but that wasn't the real message. Dennis: My recollection of Christmas was sprinting to the end, and putting together— Barbara: You mean, as parents?—talking about— Dennis: Yes, as parents. Yes; I just remember getting everything ready—the swing set that I was putting up, in the dark, on Christmas Eve— Bob: You can't get it out and start putting it up until the kids are in bed; right? Barbara: Right; right. Dennis: You can't. And if I had it to do all over again, I think I'd have taken a deep breath; and I think I would have just been more in the moment and not been so frantic about trying to turn the entire Christmas day, especially Christmas morning, into this life-altering seismic experience for our kids. [Laughter] Bob: —a production. Barbara: Yes. 16:00 Dennis: And put a little more effort into enjoying them in the process and celebrating, as Sally is talking about, the real reason for Christmas—celebrating His coming. Bob: A lot of parents will get out their Bible and turn to Luke 2, and they'll read the familiar account of the shepherds, and maybe go to Matthew and read about the wise men; and they will wonder, having read that to their kids: “Did any of that sink in? Did I just read something that their eyes glazed over?” If they want this story to really come alive for their kids, and they're not Sally Lloyd-Jones, what do they do? Sally: Well, they know their children best. I'm just covering all my bases and saying, as a story-teller, what I would do is include all the days leading up to Christmas. Don't rely on just Christmas; because one of the things I think is fun to do is set up a nativity—but don't have Jesus in the nativity, and don't have the shepherds, and don't have the wise men—start introducing them. You know, you could talk about: “There were some shepherds, and they're looking after their sheep. Where shall they be in the house?”— 17:00 —and put them somewhere in the house / same with the wise men. The fun thing about the wise men is—you can have them coming closer and closer to the nativity, every day you move them, until they arrive at the nativity on the—you know— Bob: —on Christmas; yes. Sally: Yes; so you can—I think it's making it interactive and, certainly, not making it a lesson. I think that's my—I would say that: “Don't make it into a lesson. Enjoy the story, because the story is so powerful.” And there are lots of resources. You don't have to—I mean, obviously, reading the biblical account is wonderful; and then read other ways to look at it so that you come at it from different angles. There are all kinds of— Dennis: Yes; that's what I was thinking about. Your book, Song of the Stars, fits in with what Barbara has created for this Christmas—the names of Christ Adorenaments® in stars / His eternal names. Barbara: Well, my dream has been to create something that would help families teach their children who Jesus is, because Christmas is about Jesus. And so I've created this set of ornaments—that each one is a different name of Jesus. 18:00 This year, it is stars; and I've written a piece about following the star—that's what the wise men did. I think—you know, to hitchhike off what we were just saying / you said a few minutes ago—that asking questions is the way to prime your audience. I think, for parents—whether you're hanging the ornaments on the tree about Jesus and His names or whether you're reading the book—the more you can engage with your kids and ask them questions: “Why do you think it's important that we know that Jesus is the Bright and Morning Star?” “What do you think the wise men were thinking when they traveled? How long did it take them to get here?”—make it be something that engages their imagination and their thinking. They are much more likely to, not just remember the story, but want to hear it again; because it was intriguing. Bob: I'd just say, “If you'll sit quiet and listen, we'll have figgy pudding when it's over; okay?” [Laughter] Sally: And they'll run a mile! [Laughter] The other thing I think I've— Dennis: Forget the figgy pudding; let's have some of this British pudding! [Laughter] I thought it was Christmas pudding! Sally: Are you not paying attention, Dennis? 19:00 Dennis: I thought you said Christmas pudding. Sally: Well, no— Barbara: She did say Christmas pudding. Sally: They're both one and the same. Dennis: Oh really?! Sally: Yes. Dennis: I didn't catch that! Sally: Dickens had figgy pudding. Bob: [Singing] “Now bring us our figgy pudding, now bring us our figgy pudding”— Sally: Yes! Dennis: I didn't equate that with Christmas pudding that she described that had all the liquor in it. Sally: I'm sorry about this figgy pudding; it's really bringing the show down. [Laughter] I was going to mention another great idea, I think, that I've seen people do is—like with Song of the Stars for instance—I'll give that as an example. I do the same thing—I talk about, you know: “The sheep knew,” “The lambs knew, and the Great Shepherd.” So, you could take one day—the Great Shepherd—and then put some beautiful Christmas music on and have your children draw sheep or just spend some time together focusing on sheep. Then, another day, you could talk about the lion knew He was coming—the Lion of Judah. So then, you could draw lions and put on more music. 20:00 I think the more you can engage the different senses and have them creating their own art—and those could become Advent calendars / they could become ornaments— Barbara: I agree. Bob: Trust me, those are things that, 20 years from now, you'll pull out of a file and just delight over. Sally: Yes! Barbara: Absolutely; absolutely. Bob: In fact— Dennis: And in fact, the kids will be fighting over them. Bob: Well, just recently—when our kids were young, our son, David, had a little bit of a flair for art. When he was ten, he did our Christmas card—it was his drawing of the nativity that we sent out as our Christmas card that year—same as when he was eleven. Well, David's married now. His wife just saw the Christmas cards and she said, “I want those!” And we're going: “No; those belong to Mom and Dad. [Laughter] You have to get him to draw you some new ones.” [Laughter] But it is that kind of a delightful recollection of what Christmas was about, as a child, that you'll look forward to years from now. Sally: Yes. Dennis: Well, regardless—this Christmas, enjoy the moment. Bob: Yes. Dennis: Celebrate the Savior and don't miss the reason for the season. 21:00 Bob: And Sally is not able to come to your home, but her books are; and of course, we have her books in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center—the Christmas story, Song of the Stars; her book, Found, which is the 23rd Psalm for children; and then, of course, The Jesus Storybook Bible. Find out more about what's available to read to your children when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com. And while you're there, look at the resources Barbara has been developing for families at Christmas as well, including her new set of Christmas tree ornaments that talk about the eternal names of Jesus. Again, it's all available, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call if you have any questions or if you'd like to order by phone: 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” You know, as we're now a few weeks away from the end of 2017, we've started to look back at how God has been at work through the ministry of FamilyLife Today in the last 12 months: 22:00 Dennis wrote a book called Choosing a Life that Matters that was released earlier this year; we've seen more people attending Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways; we've added new cities, and the average attendance is up at our events. There is more hunger than ever for practical biblical help and hope for marriage and family. We've seen more people coming to FamilyLifeToday.com, our website, getting easier access to articles, and audio, and video—they're getting the help they need when they access our content. And of course, our listeners—we're hearing from new folks, every week, who are listening to FamilyLife Today and telling us how God is using this ministry in profound ways in their marriage and in their family. We're grateful for all that God is doing through this ministry, and all of it has been enabled by a relatively small number of listeners—those of you who believe in the mission of this ministry and who want to see it expanded—want to see more people in your community and around the world helped. 23:00 We're grateful for the partnership that we have with listeners, like you, who help support the ministry of FamilyLife®. Of course, right now, as we're approaching the end of 2017, this is a particularly good time to think about making a donation. Our friend, Michelle Hill, is here to explain why. Hello, Michelle. Michelle: Hey Bob, yes it is a good time to donate, which is what John from Los Altos California did…John called and took advantage of the matching fund?... and his donation was matched dollar for dollar...the reason it's a good time Bob is that the matching is going to continue during December, up to a total of two million dollars! So a big thanks to folks like John and Diane and Leona and almost thirteen hundred other folks who've called and given over two hundred sixty five thousand dollars so far…we really appreciate you! Thanks Bob…see you tomorrow 24:00 Bob: And it is easy to join us. You can do that, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; you can call to donate—1-800-FL-TODAY—or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and the zip code is 72223. Thank you for the update, Michelle; and we'll see you back tomorrow. And we hope you'll join us back tomorrow as well. Sally Lloyd-Jones will be with us again, and we're going to continue to talk about how moms and dads can connect with their kids around biblical truth. I hope you can be with us for that conversation. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
Daring to Hope (Part 1) - Katie Davis MajorsDaring to Hope (Part 2) - Katie Davis MajorsDaring to Hope (Part 3) - Katie Davis MajorsFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Serving the Hurting Guest: Katie Davis Majors From the series: Daring to Hope (Day 3 of 3) Bob: As a single mother, a parent to 13 adopted children, Katie Davis Majors was surprised when a young man, also living in Uganda, began pursuing her. Katie: He asked me out twice; and it was in the middle of, I think, just a hard season for me personally. Both times I said, “No”; and the second time, I really said like, firmly, “No”—like, “Hey,”— Barbara: “Don't ask again now.” Katie: —“I hope we can still be friends; but if we can't, it's okay. We can't—we can't do that. No. No; thank you.” Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, December 20th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. How Katie Majors went from a firm “No,” to becoming Mrs. Benji Majors—we'll hear that story today. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I want to meet Benji Majors sometime; don't you? Dennis: I do! Bob: I mean, I just want to meet the guy who was persistent and met a determined young woman and was determined to win her. Dennis: I want to hear the story of whether or not he went to Uganda in search of Katie Davis, author of Kisses from Katie. [Laughter] Bob: I'm just curious about Benji. You told us earlier that there was a guy who was living out in the house behind your house. You called Benji and said, “Would you want to come disciple him?” Benji said, “Sure.” I'm thinking: “Yes; Benji wanted to take you out. I would have come and discipled him and say, ‘I'll be there every day to disciple him if it gets me a little closer to you.'” Do you think that was in the back of his mind? Katie: At that point, no; I don't think so. [Laughter] Dennis: Are you sure though? Katie: No! [Laughter] Barbara: Yes; that was a hesitant yes. So, yes; I think that's right. 2:00 Dennis: Well, Katie is the author of a new book, Daring to Hope. She is now married. She is a mom of 14—13 of whom—a baker's dozen of Ugandan little girls, who are becoming, even against Katie's will, young ladies. They are growing up— Katie: Yes. Isn't that true? Dennis: —growing up on her here. I want to ask you my favorite question, but I'm going to ask you to wait to answer it— Katie: Okay. Dennis: —until the end of the broadcast. Here is my question: “What's the most courageous thing you've ever done in all of your life?” Now, don't answer right now—I'm going to give you a moment to think about it—but courage is doing your duty in the face of fear. I've got a sneaking suspicion, because of your book, Daring to Hope, that you've got a definition or two that comes from your book that you'd share with our listeners; but to get there, what I want to first have you do is tell us about the woman who had five children, who was dying of TB and HIV, who came to you. 3:00 Her name was Katherine. Tell our listeners that story of how you cared for her. Katie: Katherine came to live with us when she became very ill. Her five children, under the age of ten, were sponsored by Amazima; so we were paying for their school. Dennis: Okay; let's just stop here. Amazima is an organization you run in Uganda. Katie: Yes. We—our goal is really to disciple families and to empower the families to stay together. About 80 percent of children in institutions in East Africa actually have one living parent; and they end up institutionalized just due to financial poverty. Their parents cannot afford to pay for them to go to school, or to pay for their medical care, or to pay for their food; so they send them to these institutions. That was something that was very shocking to me the first year that I lived in Uganda, and I really desired to try to change the system. 4:00 Through financial sponsorship of school fees, and some food, and some basic medical provision, Amazima works to keep these children with their biological family members; but of course, the heartbeat of our organization is really that, in doing that, we would form a relationship with these families and lead them to Christ. Dennis: Katherine was one of those moms who had experienced the care of your organization. Katie: Yes; so we were in relationship with her and had known her for a few years through her children; and she just got sicker and sicker to the point where she wasn't really able to take care of her children very well. She moved over to our house so that I could help her out with her children and, also, because our house is very close to the local hospital, and she needed a little more immediate access to medical care. We were just down the street from the doctor she was seeing. They lived with us for several months. I truly, really, believed that God was going to heal her of her illness—that she would become healthy and strong again. 5:00 I had imagined it in my head—the happy ending, where she would move out with her children. We always throw a bit of a celebration for people who have lived with us for a season and get to move out on their own again. We've had many families, especially struggling single mothers, live with us over the years. We always have a big celebration when they become well, or they finally find a job, or their child is finally healthy enough, and they can move out. I really thought that that would be the case with Katherine and her family as well; and she did get better for some time, but then she began to deteriorate very quickly. Dennis: She passed away. Katie: She did. Dennis: You compared your experience to the prophet Habakkuk and how he had to deal with some disappointments as well. You learned through that disappointment that there isn't always a happy ending to the story—but in this case, there was a happy ending to the story because— Katie: Right. 6:00 Dennis: —she went to heaven. Katie: Yes; absolutely. That's what Habakkuk says—right?—that though the olive crop fails, though the leaves wither, though there are no sheep in the pen—basically, even if I can't see it, still I will hope / still I will rejoice in God my Savior. I felt like that was something God was teaching me in a season where I had really thought we would see it—we would see a happy ending where she stayed alive. God showed me—still I can rejoice, even though things didn't go my way. Barbara: I remember discovering that verse when our children were teenagers. They were starting to kind of press the limits a little bit and push back on us. I discovered that verse, and I thought, “This is a perfect verse for a mother— Katie: Yes. Barbara: —“of children of all ages; but especially, teenagers.” I think the oldest was only 15 at the time; but I remember, when I read that, I just hung on to that because I thought: “Lord, there is no guarantee— 7:00 Katie: Yes. Barbara: —“that all the best parenting, all the prayer—none of that guarantees that my children will choose You, they will choose to live a good life, they will be responsible / they'll be productive. They're no guarantees. It could all fail. It could all be gone. Will I trust You if You do that?” It was a real turning point in my life; because I said, “Okay; God, I will. I will choose to believe You even if none of my children flourish / there is no green on the vine.” Katie: And isn't that the hardest part of parenting— Barbara: Absolutely. Katie: —is just that moment when you realize, “Even if I do everything perfectly,”—which I'm not— Barbara: Which we're not—none of us do. Katie: —“but even if I did,— Barbara: Yes. Katie: —“there is no guarantee— Barbara: None. Dennis: No. Katie: —“there is going to be any fruit here. There's no guarantee that these—that they are going to choose Christ in their own lives, and they have to choose it for themselves.” That's the scariest part of it for sure! Barbara: Yes; exactly, because it's not something that we can do for them. Katie: No. 8:00 Bob: Bryan Loritts, who is a pastor in Northern California, who is a part of The Art of Parenting video series that's coming out before long, makes the observation: “God is a perfect Father. God has rebellious children.” Barbara: Yes; lots of rebellious children. [Laughter] Katie: Yes. Bob: So, think about that—here's a perfect Father with rebel kids. Why should we think that we, as imperfect parents, will be spared a little rebellion in our home?—right? Katie: Right. Dennis: No doubt about it. Just as Barbara was talking about, we have learned a bunch about God's love for us as we have loved our kids and watched them struggle in their faith, from time to time. Katie, I know from reading your book that you have learned a lot about the love of God through the 14 children that you have. Katie: Oh, absolutely; because even—you know, as a parent, you see so clearly that, even when you are disciplining your children, it's not out of this place of anger toward them or hatred toward them— 9:00 —it's out of such this place of love and a desire for good things to come in their lives. I think I've understood so much more that—when God disciplines me in my own life, when God tells me to go in a direction that I don't really feel like I want to go, or when God even brings me through a difficult time—it is His love that does that to shape me, to change me, to teach me; because He wants good things for me. I think, as parents, when we feel that love for our children, we can see it so much more clearly from God's vantage point. Dennis: Yes; I really agree. Katie, before we get too far away from the story of Katherine, who died, and her five children—what happened to those five? Did you adopt them? Katie: I didn't. They did stay with us for a little while, immediately following her death. 10:00 Then, we placed them with a biological aunt, who they lived with for some time; but that situation was never really good. The aunt was very young, and she was also struggling. She didn't have any biological children, so she had never parented before; and the children were really suffering there with her. We would provide food, and we would drive out there to visit them; but it just never seemed to be a good situation. I was just getting desperate, just praying, asking the Lord what I should do. I mean, the idea of having five more children come to my house was a lot. At the same time, I was not clearly seeing another option. They were a sibling set of five—like there aren't many families that are willing to take that on, even in the foster care system. I had gone to visit my friend, Rose. Before I started talking, she said, “You know, my daughter Helen”—who had been a good friend of my daughters and was in and out of our house a lot—she said: 11:00 “My daughter told me about what happened to the mom of those kids. I'm so sorry. God's just put it on my heart to really pray for them; but also, just to ask you: ‘Is there anything they need?—even, maybe, do they need a place to go?'” Of course, I like start to weep and just said: “Oh, I can't even tell you—that has been on my heart all week. I've been praying.” I was even just telling a good friend of mine earlier that same day—like, “I do not know what we're going to do for these children, but I feel like—I told their mom, before she died, that I would make sure they were okay. It feels like a lot of responsibility.” Rose and I talked for several more hours that day about what it would mean for her to start fostering them. About a month later, we went through all the paperwork process; and social workers visited with both families. 12:00 About a month later, we are able to help move Katherine's five children into Rose's home. Barbara: Wow. Dennis: You know, I just marvel at your acts of courage to care for Katherine as she died, to care for her children after she died, and also your courage in developing a relationship with a young man called Benji. Bob: Yes; you talked about how unusual it is for somebody to take five kids in as foster kids. [Laughter] Katie: That is a little ironic; isn't it? Barbara: Yes; it is. Bob: How unusual is it for a young man to say, “I'm going to be the husband to a mom of 13?!” Katie: Yes; it's not usual. Barbara: It's not normal. Dennis: So, he asked you out twice before you said, “Yes.” Katie: He did. He asked me out a couple of times; and both times, I said, “No.” The second time, I really said, like firmly, “No,”—like, “Hey,— Barbara: Like “Don't-ask-again” no? 13:00 Katie: —“I hope we can still be friends; but if we can't, it's okay.” [Laughter] Dennis: It was a “Dear John.” Katie: “We can't do that. I'm—no. No; thank you.” So, then, really, after that, I think I got to watch his heart on display a lot more; because I trusted that he wasn't going to ask me again. He was very respectful in that—he didn't really come over as much after that. He was still discipling the man that lived in the back of our yard, but he would come—he would go straight to Mack. He would spend his time with him, and he would leave. He would not come say, “Hello,” to me / he would not try to make conversation. I mean, I felt very respected in that—that he didn't. He heard what I said, and he didn't push the boundaries. I got to watch him and his heart for people, and for service, and truly for the gospel through that. He was also attending this large Bible study that we all went to on Wednesday nights. 14:00 He often led worship or even led the teaching at that Bible study. I was just—I was so attracted to his heart for the Lord. I was telling my good friend, like: “Oh my gosh. I think I like him; but now, I can't tell him; because he's never going to ask—he's not going to ask me out again. There is no hope.” So, I did—I had to call him and ask him if he would come over for coffee; and he said, “No.” [Laughter] Barbara: He didn't want to risk it again; huh? Katie: Well, yes! I mean, I had said so— Barbara: Yes. Katie: —clearly that I didn't want to date him. What was he going to be doing having coffee with me? Why would you have coffee with a young, single female that wasn't going to date you? [Laughter] So, I had to beg and plead a little bit, you know: “Please, I need to talk to you about something important. Can you come? Can we just—can we just have a cup of coffee?” So, he finally said, “Yes.” Dennis: Oh no! You've got to say— Barbara: And he said? Dennis: Yes?—what happened over the cup of coffee? Katie: Well, then, I was so nervous. 15:00 I made like dumb small talk the whole time; right? So, after about an hour, he's looking at his watch; and he's like— Barbara: “Okay?” Katie: —“Okay; well, this was nice. I think I'm going to go.” So, then, I just kind of blurted out some words that probably didn't even make sense—like: “You know, I was thinking / I was wondering if, maybe—do you want to like—we could spend more time together, you know, intentionally; you know?” Barbara: Real coherent; right? Katie: Right; exactly. He's just kind of looking at me; and finally, he said, “Like—like dating?” I said, “Well, yes.” He said, “Okay; I'm going to pray about that,” and he left! [Laughter] Dennis: He didn't go for the bait! Katie: What I didn't know, at the time—which is amazingly the Lord's provision and just further confirmation that we both really were trying to seek after Him— 16:00 —was that he had been in conversation, earlier that week, with some of his supporters in the States about whether or not his time in Uganda was coming to a close. He felt like he had pretty effectively discipled these 30 men. They were all kind of going out into the world and starting churches and discipling other young men. He felt like: “Okay; I could kind of take under my wing another group,” or “I could just keep in touch with this group via Skype and internet. Maybe, my time here is coming to a close.” He had been in conversation with people about whether or not he was moving back when he got my phone call asking him to come to coffee. What I didn't know, when he said he needed to pray about this, was this was a much bigger decision than “Am I going to date this girl?” This was a decision for him of: “Is there more of life for me in Uganda right now?” 17:00 Dennis: And so, how long did you date? Katie: Probably, almost a year from that point until we got engaged; and then, we were engaged for about eight months. Dennis: Time out. How did he propose? Katie: It was so sweet. He actually—he's such a good dad—he took all the girls out for ice cream earlier in the week. He just said to me like—and he would do this sometimes—he would say: “I'm going to take the girls out to eat,” or “I'm going to take them down to the river to play for a little bit so that you can get some quiet.” He had taken the girls out for ice cream and took them over to his house, actually, and sat them all down and said: “I would like to propose to your mom. What do you think about that?” They all gave feedback; and then, he let them help him plan how he would propose to me. Dennis: Wow. Barbara: That's so sweet! Katie: He showed them the ring, and he let them— Barbara: So sweet. Katie: —he let it be a family affair, which I just loved that he knew my heart well enough to know that I would have felt like something was missing if they hadn't been a part of that. 18:00 Actually, our best friends came to babysit the girls; and he took me back over to his place. There was a picnic laid out—his yard is kind of right on the edge of the lake that we live nearby—and he proposed. Then, as soon as I said, “Yes,” all our girls came running out of the bushes. They had watched the whole thing. Barbara: Oh how sweet! Oh, I love it. Katie: They were so excited, and they had picked flowers. They were throwing them on us—it was so sweet. Barbara: So, did anybody capture any photos of that—I hope? Katie: No. Barbara: I'm just thinking, “Oh, I wish I could have seen that.” It just sounds delightful. Dennis: Great video. Katie: I know! Barbara: Even just a few still photographs. Katie: It was so dark, but it's like seared in my memory forever! Barbara: I'm sure it is; yes. Dennis: So, back to my original question, at the beginning of the broadcast: “Katie Davis Majors, what's the most courageous thing you've ever done in all your life?” 19:00 Katie: That is a hard question, but I think—I think the most courageous thing that I have ever done is to trust God when I can't see what He's doing. I don't think that's a courage that has come from me. I think that God, Himself, has allowed me the grace to continue to trust Him. I think that that's the most courageous thing that any of us can do—is to continue to put our hope and our trust in God, even when we don't really feel like it. He has shown me that that hope does not disappoint me because, even when I don't get what I want, I get more of Him—I get to know Him more / I get to know sides of Him that I wouldn't have known if I hadn't scooted up next to Him like that. Bob: So, you're saying, even if the olive tree is barren— Katie: Yes! Bob: —and the leaves are withering— 20:00 —to say, “I'm still going to trust Him.” That's where real courage comes from. Katie: I think that that is real courage. Dennis: As you were talking, I couldn't help but think of this passage in Romans, Chapter 5. Katie: I love this one. Dennis: “More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces— Katie: —“hope.” Dennis: —“hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.” Katie: Yes! Dennis: God in you—changing you. Katie: Yes. Dennis: Great answer to the question. Katie: Thanks. Bob: Well, and there is a lot of courage that shows up in the book that you've written called Daring to Hope. It's a book that tells the story of how God has been with you in the midst of suffering / how you've seen His goodness in the brokenness of where you live and work. 21:00 I would encourage our listeners: Get a copy of Katie's book, Daring to Hope. You can order it from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to order at 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” You know, one of the things that, Dennis, both you and I love to hear are stories of redemption—people whose lives were broken / headed in the wrong direction—they were in the ditch, as you like to say—and God intervenes and turns them in a new direction and points them in a new direction—turns their whole life around. Recently, we got a chance to meet with a number of listeners, who said FamilyLife Today was a part of their redemption story. 22:00 Some of the stories we heard were just remarkable. I was sitting there, thinking, “I wish our Legacy Partners / I wish the folks who help support this ministry could be here with us, hearing these stories, because that's what you're giving to when you support the ministry of FamilyLife Today.” You're helping us reach more people more regularly with practical biblical help and hope. And here, as 2017 is drawing to a close, I know some of you are thinking about possible yearend donations to ministries like ours. There is a special opportunity for you to give over the next couple of weeks—it's a matching-gift fund that's been established for this ministry. Michelle Hill is here with details on how we're doing with that matching-gift fund. Hi, Michelle! 23:00 Michelle: Hey Bob…well by now many folks have heard that the match fund has more than doubled (it's now 4.3 million dollars) but the real important number is one, as in that one person listening right now and deciding to give…and maybe you're that one? J I mean really Bob, the match isgoing to be met one gift at a time…and so far over five thousand people have made that decision. So, thanks to each one…like Don from Canton, Ohio? Today we're at NINE HUNDRED SEVENTY ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS...which is great! BUT…if we're going to take full advantage of the match, we'll need a lot of other ones to pray and then give as God leads. Bob: Well, and if you'd like to be a part of helping us take full advantage of the matching gift, you can make a donation today, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to donate—1-800-358-6329 is the number—1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY”; or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223. 24:00 And if you haven't sent us a Christmas card yet, send a Christmas card and just tuck something inside; okay? And I hope you can join us back again tomorrow when we're going to hear a conversation we had, not long ago, with our friends, Don and Sally Meredith. This is a remarkable couple who God used in a significant way to help birth the ministry of FamilyLife all the way back in 1976. I hope you can tune in and meet our friends, Don and Sally Meredith. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Life Aboard the Space Station Guest: Barry Wilmore From the series: Life Aboard the Space Station (Day 1 of 1) Bob: And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Friday edition. This could get a little tricky today. I'm not sure— Houston: Hello, this is Houston Comm Tech. Dennis: This is Dennis Rainey with FamilyLife Today. Bob: And Bob Lepine. Houston, can you hear us? Houston: I hear you very low. Bob: Low? Not loud and clear? Houston: Okay, you're coming in a little bit louder. Please standby. Bob: Do I need to say, “Over”? Houston: Okay, this is Comm Tech with a second voice-take on private three; now copy. Bob: Hi, Comm Tech. How's the sound now? Better? Houston: Sounds better. Please stand by for a moment. Bob: Okay. Dennis: Alright. Bob: I'm getting the sense that you don't make jokes with Houston Comm Tech or anybody else in Houston. Dennis: Well, we're speaking to NASA. Bob: They are a little focused on the mission. Dennis: And folks, this is not a joke. That really is— Bob: Yes. Dennis: —Houston NASA Control Center. Bob: And here is the thing. Some of our listeners recognize that, back last fall, we had the opportunity to have a conversation with Captain Barry Wilmore and his wife Deanna just before Barry blasted off from a launch pad in Russia— 1:00 Dennis: A Soyuz rocket. Bob: —going up to take command of the International Space Station, which is where he is today. Dennis: And we also recorded, without Deanna knowing, a 20th Anniversary greeting. Bob: Yes, Barry called us from the space station, back in early December—December 3rd was their anniversary— Dennis: Right. Bob: —their 20th Anniversary. We had him, at the end of the program, sharing anniversary greetings. Dennis: And he sent me an email, after that happened, and said: “Dennis, thank you for allowing me to do that. My daughter actually took a video.” I don't know how they do this, Bob—but they showed the video back to him on the space station. He is in the International Space Station, right now. He had a conversation—and he said, “My daughter showed my wife weeping— Bob: As she listened? Dennis: —“as she listened to my 20th Anniversary greetings.” Bob: And we're trying to work things out now. I think this is going to work, where Houston is setting us up so that we can talk to Captain Wilmore— 2:00 Dennis: —on the International Space Station. Bob: Right. Dennis: He— Barry: FamilyLife Today, hello. Hello, from the International Space Station. You guys out there? Bob: Unbelievable! Is it really you? Barry: Hi, Bob! Hi, Dennis! Bob: And how many bars do you have on your phone right now? [Laughter] Barry: Hopefully, enough! Dennis: Amazing! Bob: It is amazing that we're talking to you! Barry: Well, thank you all for your program—it's fabulous. Dennis: Would you mind looking out your window and telling us what you're seeing right now? Barry: If I'm not mistaken—I didn't look at a map—but if I'm not mistaken, based on what I've seen, I believe that's Australia going by below me. Bob: Wow! [Laughter] Dennis: Well, Butch, you're looking at the earth as few men or women ever get a chance to see it. What's a unique perspective you've had, just from outer space? This is your second time to be in orbit. Any thoughts come to your mind as you glance at the globe of six billion people? Barry: Very interesting question. You know, when I was here before—when I flew five years ago— 3:00 —it was a shuttle mission. Shuttle missions were fast and furious—it was 11 days. I think the most time I ever had to stick my nose in the window was about 20 minutes. That really wasn't long enough—it was wonderful—don't get me wrong. But now, to have the opportunity to really, no kidding, poke my nose in the window for very extended periods of time, it's truly amazing and truly breathtaking. It makes me in awe of my Lord and Savior and Creator—I mean—beyond words. I can't explain—you can't explain the view. You can't—I mean, you can see pictures / you can see video—and they do a little bit to show what the beauty of the earth and the globe is from here; but to see it with your own eyes and realize that it's controlled by a sovereign God—like I said, it's beyond words. Bob: Tell us what a day is like onboard the Space Station. First of all, what time zone are you in? Barry: Yes, we work under GMT, Greenwich Mean Time, which is the same time as London. Before I answer that question— 4:00 —let me say that / I want it to be clear—it is an amazing place, and it's an amazing view. It is an amazing thing to be here. I wake up every morning, and I float down the tube. I'm like: “Lord, I can't believe I'm here. This is just amazing! It's thrilling.” But I did not need to come here to know my Lord / to know my God. I mean—all that I could ever know / could ever want to know—I gleaned from the Words of Scripture. So, I didn't have to come here to find my Lord. He's in the Word—that's where He resides—and that's where He speaks to us from. Okay, again, your question? Bob: Just tell me about what a day is like for you onboard the space station. Barry: Well, the days are pretty busy as you would imagine. I'm kind of a morning guy—I get up early. I get up around 4:30 or 5:00. We're not required, but it's very highly encouraged that we work out a great deal. We get about two and half hours a day scheduled to work out—we have resistance exercise. So, that's how I start my day. 5:00 The resistance exercise machine is actually positioned right below the main window, which is called the cupola in the Space Station. I can lay there and do my work-out and see the beauty of the world go by. For instance, just this very morning, I'm working out—I look up, and there goes the nation of Israel by the window. It's the first time since I've been here that we've flown directly over the top. It was wonderful to look down and see the—from that vantage point—to see the places where our Lord walked when He was on earth—so, it was great. Anyway, that's the way my day starts. Then, of course, the rest of it begins. It's a busy, busy place with a lot of various things going on—science, working payloads, plant seedling growth or crystal growth, working with the fish—we had fish up here. Some of them went back when the last Soyuz went back—and experiments with those. And the list goes on, and on, and on—combustion science. I mean—and that's just one day. 6:00 Then, there'll be things that will break; and we'll have to fix—that's ongoing. Of course, we have to do a spacewalk. We go out and do some things outside—that was amazing as well. So, the variety, and the opportunity, and the things that we do is varied—it's really neat. Bob: I'm just curious if they still have Tang® onboard the Space Station—you know—because I grew up—it was all about astronauts and Tang. Do you even know what I'm talking about? Barry: I know exactly what you're talking about—I sure do! I don't know that it's made by people that make Tang, but it's like that—it's a powdered drink. That's all we have, basically. It's in little pouches, and we put water in it—it fires it up. It's quite tasty—I enjoy it in various flavors. Bob: So, breakfast, or lunch, or dinner—what are your meals like onboard the Space Station? Barry: The food is prepared a little differently—so, it does give it a different taste—and we're big on condiments here. [Laughter] Condiments are huge! So, you can make anything taste decent with the right amount of condiments. [Laughter] But you know, breakfast— 7:00 —eggs, sausage links, and patties. I mean, we've got those that we rehydrate. We've got soups. We don't have salads; but we have soups, and vegetables, and meats—a varied variety of those. It's really good—I enjoy the food. Then, again, I'm not a good guy to ask if food is good because, when I was on deployment on the aircraft carrier, I even liked ship food. There are not many people that like ship food. [Laughter] Dennis: Other than your family, what do you miss most while being in outer space? Barry: There is only one thing that I miss. I'll tell you what it is and I'll tell you why I don't miss anything else. It is because it is such a unique place. To pine for something that I can't have—like a hamburger, or French fries, or something like that—there's no reason for that because everything else just overwhelms that. The one thing that I don't have here—that I not only want but I need—is church. The Lord gave us His church. He gave it to us because He knew that we needed it. 8:00 We need it for our encouragement, for learning / obviously, for worship—admonishment at times. That's the one thing that I can't have here. I try to supplement that. I have messages from my home church that are sent to me weekly—and I listen to those—but it's not the same as being there and the fellowship with the body. That's the one thing that I do miss. Bob: And you'd include FamilyLife Today in there as well; right? Barry: Absolutely! [Laughter] Absolutely. Dennis: Butch, I emailed you this morning. I just wonder, “How long does it take for my email to get to you?” Barry: Now, that's varied as well. Sometimes, it gets here immediately. At other times, it takes days. It gets stuck in a hopper somewhere, and it won't get here for a couple of days. So, it's varied. Mostly, it's pretty good though. Bob: What can you tell us about the rest of the crew—the guys you are working with? Barry: Well, my Russian crewmates—that I launched in the Soyuz with—will be here the whole six months together. Alexander Samokutyaev is a military pilot from the Russian Air Force, and Elena Serova is a female engineer that was selected as a cosmonaut several years ago. 9:00 It's a great group of people to be around. We've trained a lot on earth together; and being with them here is fabulous as well. Dennis: Do you speak Russian? Barry: You know, I jokingly say, “I speak two languages fluently, and one I speak a little bit.” I speak English, and I speak Tennessee. Then, I know a little bit of Russian. [Laughter] Bob: But in that kind of environment—where you are living together / you're working together—I mean, you don't have anybody else to talk to other than your comrades onboard the Space Station and your comm link back to Houston. Relationships—maintaining healthy relationships—that's got to be a part of the mission; isn't it? Barry: It is. One of the things that is good—again, that NASA does well is / like you mentioned—email. I've got friends and relationships that I've built over the years. Being able to maintain contact with those individuals via email is really—it's wonderful. 10:00 There is also—you know, I was able to send out and have 300 or so people on a friends and family website. They put some stuff on the website—like the spacewalk I did, and pictures, and whatnot. I've typed up a few things that go to that website to maintain contact with them. The people who are able to access that website can also send me messages. So, that's very helpful. Dennis: One of the things that I did a little a research on is the massive number of people that form the NASA team—that, ultimately, slings you guys into outer space and cares for your well-being while you are out there. I'd just be fascinated to hear your thoughts about teamwork and lessons you've learned that are, literally, out of this world. Barry: Oh, you are right. You can't—we can't have success in just about anything in life without teamwork. That's certainly the case here on the International Space Station. Yes, we're the bodies that get to climb into the rocket, and they launch, and come up here and do these wonderful things in a wonderful environment— 11:00 —it's true—but these experiments, these payloads, these procedures that I run daily—they don't exist without the team. The things that we're doing / the things that we're accomplishing up here do not happen without the team. I'm just, honestly, a small part of the team when it comes to a lot of the things that I do. There's a mountain of people that put their passion and their life's work into much of the things that I work on here. You know, some of the experiments—there are individuals that—this is literally—literally—some of them, it's their life's work—things that they've been working on for decades—and here it is in my hands. I take that seriously, and it's a great amount of responsibility. You know, I appreciate them for what they do—the effort they've put into jobs to make some things easier for me. I'm sure they appreciate the things that we do as well. It doesn't exist without that cohesiveness, like you mentioned. Dennis: You need to know we have a ton of young folks who listen, dreaming dreams/aspirations for their own lives. 12:00 Have you got something you'd like to say to them about what they need to be cultivating as they grow up and, hopefully, put some feet to their dreams? Barry: One thing that comes to mind is—for me, anyway—the parable of the talents. The lord gave some more than others, but there was a certain expectation for whatever they were given. I think that, as we live our life, that we need to realize that wherever we are / whatever we are doing, we exist for His glory—that's why we're here. With whatever He's given us, we need to maximize and do the best we can with that for His glory. Do what you are passionate about / do what you love—and remember that you do everything you do for His glory. Bob: Sometimes, things don't go according to plan. I know you all were expecting a supply delivery—that there was a little bit of a hitch. Can you tell us what happened and how you've had to adjust, as a result? 13:00 Barry: Yes, there was a mishap with a launch vehicle that was bringing cargo to us. For me, personally, there have been minor adjustments. The reason—and we've talked about it just a second ago—is the team. The team on the ground that works all of those issues have worked feverishly to make sure that we have everything that we need. They planned ahead so we'd have a stockpile of things that we wouldn't be put in a bind on anything. There is only one or two items that were even just slightly short on because the team has been working and doing their jobs. And the team—as soon as it happened—they were at work, getting ready and planning and seeing how we go forward from there. Bob: Were you anxious at all when you got the news that the supply vehicle had been damaged? Barry: We were actually watching it, live, as it launched; and we saw what had happened. You know, our first thoughts, like anything—it's a clear range, and there is nobody there—but you still—there is always a chance that something will go astray. Your first thought is, “Could anybody have been injured?” 14:00 Of course, thankfully, that wasn't the case. When there is no individual harm that takes place—cargo and stuff—you can replace all of that. In that light, it's minor. Dennis: Butch, I want you to give our listeners an idea of how big this thing is that you are screaming around the earth in. Barry: Total size—if you think about two football fields—it's about as long as a football field and about as wide as a football field. The structure inside—they say that the size and the volume is like five buses that you would connect together. We have various modules, and I can tell you it is wide open space—it's not like the capsule I launched in. The Soyuz capsule is very small. The shuttle, with respect to the Space Station—the living space in that was fairly small—but this is huge / it's wide open. And you're right—flying around—even inside here, weightlessly, is such a kick. It is really, really amazing. As a matter of fact, I just flipped around and am standing on the ceiling now— 15:00 —or what we call the ceiling because there really is no up and down. [Laughter] Now, I'm standing on the bulkhead—on the wall. [Laughter] Dennis: There are some kids, right now, going, “Oh, could I go up there and join him for that?!” So, have you ever spilled anything up there? Barry: It's great to watch water droplets and whatnot—so, yes, I spill it often, intentionally, because it's neat to watch. [Laughter] Bob: I would like to be weightless just for a day. Dennis: I could use some weightlessness. Captain Wilmore, you have done a number of deployments in your service for the Navy. You have any coaching for dads who travel a lot? Maybe, they don't go to outer space, but they're gone three or four days a week or a good number of days throughout the month—any coaching for them about caring for their wives and their children in the midst of that? Barry: I think the thing that I would say from my standpoint—and what I've tried to do myself—is always think about biblical principles—you know, raise them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord and teach them God's Word. 16:00 That's what I do with my daughters, and that's what my wife and I do together. I think a big part of that is preparing, especially when the children are younger—I've got a seven-year-old and a ten-year-old. We did a great deal of preparation for this separation time—discussing it and talking about it. My number one message to my daughters, and I even say it when I call them now, is: “Help Mommy.” We also—my wife homeschools—so, the follow-up slogan to that is: “Help your teacher. The principal may be out of town for a while, but he's coming back!” [Laughter] Dennis: So, that's a setup. Do you want to say anything to those girls of yours?—any words from Daddy to a daughter? I know you get to talk to them too, but here is a chance to both brag on them and exhort them with a few hundred thousand, if not a million, listeners across the country. 17:00 Barry: Yes, both of my daughters are taking piano lessons—my youngest just started. I want you to know, girls—Darren and Logan—Daddy loves—loves—to hear you play the piano. I thank you when you practice, and I thank you when you play over the phone so I can even hear you from here—so, thank you for that. I want you to know that Daddy is very proud of both of you. And I, also, want you to know that the slogan is the same in this message too: “Help Mommy / help your teacher.” [Laughter] Dennis: Well said by a dad. Way to go! Is there a question you'd like to be asked that's a favorite question for you to answer? Barry: I think, you know, it's less about me / more about my Lord is where I would try to orient any question: “What drives you?”—maybe. What really, truly drives me is my desire to live according to what the Lord has laid out in His Word that we should do— 18:00 —and to glorify Him—and that's the main driver. So, that would be the question: “What drives you?” and that's the answer. Bob: You have time in your schedule to include spiritual disciplines and to keep your spiritual self in shape; right? Barry: Absolutely; yes, sir. Bob: So, what are you doing in space—I know you have an opportunity to read your Bible, and you mentioned reviewing messages from church. Anything else that you are doing to just stay connected to Christ? Barry: The Lord gave me something a few years ago that I have been continuing. It wasn't something I set out to do—it just kind of happened—and that is that I started sending out a devotion to just a couple of people daily / every single day. Over the years, the Lord grew that distribution list. I don't know how many people are on it now—I haven't counted—it's probably 70 or so different emails that I send out. So, I do that every day—preparing the devotion to send out to those 70 individuals. 19:00 Also, I have it posted on my friends and family website. So that, right there, is something that the Lord has given me to keep me in His Word, and keep me studying, and keep me growing—and for that, I am grateful. Dennis: I just want our listeners to think about where Butch is right now because he's looking at how this verse is really spelled out—Psalm 8: O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is Your name in all the earth. You have set Your glory above the heavens! When I look at the heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars, which You have set in place; what is man, that You are mindful of him and the son of man that You care for him? Yet, you have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor! You have given him dominion over the works of Your hands and have put all things under his feet, all sheep and oxen, 20:00 and the beasts of the fields, and the birds of the heaven, and the fish of the sea, whatever passes along the paths of the sea. O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is Your name in all the earth!” Barry: I can tell you from this vantage point, “majestic,” indeed—praise Him. Bob: Butch, let me ask you one more question. How often does the sun come up during the day, and how often does it go down during the day for you? Barry: Oh, there is another blessing! The sunrises and sunsets here are just amazing. The Space Station—the whole station for about six to ten seconds turns completely orange as it goes through—as the light passes through the atmosphere. It kind of acts as a prism and separates the colors. I get 16 of those a day—fantastic! Bob: So, is it almost bedtime for you now? Barry: It actually—it is. I'm going to grab me a quick little bite to eat; and then, I'm going to hit the rack. [Laughter] Dennis: Well, Butch, thanks for joining us on FamilyLife Today. Just want you to know it's no excuse that you can't listen to the broadcast up there. You should have figured that out in advance, but we'll forgive you for that; okay? 21:00 Barry: I appreciate that—[Laughter]—next time—next time! Bob: Well, we're thrilled to be able to talk to you. Folks are praying for you, and we're going to keep praying for you. Excited to hear that the mission is going well. Barry: Thank you very much, and I appreciate that as well. Praise Him. Thank you. Bob: You know, it occurs to me—that when Butch lands—and I just checked with Keith—it's not a splashdown. It's not a landing like an airplane. It's an earthbound landing and a recovery. What did you call it—the Soyuz—what? Keith: They land from a Soyuz recovery capsule, and they land on the ground in the steppes of Russia. Bob: Wow! Keith knows these things. [Laughter] When that happens—after he and his wife have had a chance to kind of get acquainted with one another again—we need to get them to one of our Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways for a little refresher. Dennis: Yes. Bob: When you've been gone for several months, it's good to have a little getaway weekend together and to hear, again, God's design for the marriage relationship. 22:00 Of course, you and I are going to be speaking at Weekend to Remember getaways next weekend. You're going to be in Hershey, Pennsylvania. I'm going to be in Colorado Springs. Dennis: Yes. Bob: We've got another four or five getaways happening next weekend—Valentine's weekend. Then, throughout the spring, there are Weekend to Remember marriage getaways happening in cities, all across the country. If you and your spouse have never been, you don't have to go to outer space in order to qualify to attend a Weekend to Remember. You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and sign up to attend an upcoming Weekend to Remember marriage getaway—get more information about when one of these getaways is coming to a city near where you live. Or call 1-800-FL-TODAY and mention that you'd like to attend a Weekend to Remember marriage getaway. We can answer any questions you have—let you know about dates and locations. But we hope you'll make plans to invest in your marriage, whether you've been apart for a while or whether you see each other, day-in and day-out. This kind of getaway is great preventative maintenance for every marriage relationship. 23:00 Again, learn more at FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link at the top of the page that says, “GO DEEPER.” You'll find information about the Weekend to Remember marriage getaway there. Or call 1-800- “F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then, the word, “TODAY,”—ask about the Weekend to Remember. One final note before we're done. Next week is National Marriage Week. We're going to be celebrating all week long with some special things going on social media. If you are not a friend of ours on our Facebook® page or if you don't follow us on Twitter®, let me encourage you to sign up so that you can be in the loop for all that we've got going on next week—some fun stuff, some helpful things, and some ideas for Valentine's Day. You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and scroll all the way down to the very bottom of the page. You'll see the links there for Facebook and Twitter—you can sign up that way. Or, if you're in the know, just go to Facebook and Twitter—follow us @FamilyLifeToday—that's our Twitter handle. 24:00 Or you can click, “Like,” on our FamilyLife Today Facebook page and join us that way. And with that, we've got to wrap things up. Thanks for being with us today. Hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able to worship together this weekend. I hope you can join us back on Monday when we're going to begin a weeklong look at the Song of Solomon and what that book has to say about marriage, and romance, and dating, and intimacy. We're going to hear messages from Pastor Matt Chandler next week. So, hope you can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with help today from Tom Thompson. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you Monday for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. 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God is Good (Part 1) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 2) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 3) - John & Donna BishopToday® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Making New Memories Guest: John and Donna BishopFrom the series: God is So Good Bob: The Bible teaches us a different way of thinking about trials, to count it all joy when we experience various trials. That can be easy to read but very difficult to do. Fifteen years ago, John Bishop lost his memory completely as a result of meningitis. In the years that followed, there were many difficulties the Bishop family faced. John: That night I hurting so bad, and I'd listen to Psalm, and it said, "O taste and see that the Lord is good," Psalm 34a – "Blessed is the man trusteth in Him," and I said, "God, I going to believe you're good. If I never get better I still going to believe you're good because that what Your Word says." And I said, "Lord, this must be what faith means is believing You even when I don't feel like it." So I'm going to believe God good whether I feel good or not. I'm going to believe God good whether I get better or not just because the Bible say it. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, August 6th. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. No matter what happens in your life, can you say God is so good, and all His ways are good? And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition. This past weekend we had a wedding. My daughter, Katy, became Mrs. Katy Walker, and … Dennis: How did you do? Bob: I was fine. I was thinking back to how all marriages start, and they all start with hopes and dreams and the expectation of a storybook romance and they all live happily ever after – that kind of a fairy tale scenario. Dennis: At least that's what we think is going to happen. But when we start out a marriage relationship, we have no idea what God has in store for our spouse or for us, as a couple. Bob: Yes, and as we've been hearing this week, John and Donna Bishop experienced a unique circumstance in their marriage 13 years ago when he lost all memory, and the story had to begin again with a whole new set of circumstances; that the love story had to start up again from scratch. And yet it's been remarkable to hear how God has sustained this couple and to hear them testify to His goodness in the midst of this kind of adversity. Dennis: And, you know, I want to turn to the listener at this point before you hear the rest of the story, and I want to encourage you to order a bunch of CDs and pass them out to your buddies. Bob: I've already done that. I took … Dennis: I have, too, Bob, I'm telling you, I'm going to talk to the folks down at the warehouse, and I'm going to see if we can't make a deal so that you can order these – this story in quantity and pass it out at church, pass it out in your neighborhood. This is going to be a story that I think is going to touch, literally, millions of people's lives around the nation. Bob: And as we hear part 3 of this story, we're beginning to get a picture of the tremendous impact John's illness had on a marriage and on a family. I mean, here were John and Donna raising three sons. Donna: It was hard on the boys. I think it's probably hardest maybe on my youngest son, because he was 10 years old, and I remember one day Luke came to me, and he said, "Mom, it's not fair, because my brothers had a daddy that got to play ball with them and go hunting with them and do fun things with him," and he caught me on an up day there, so I said, "I know, but you know the Lord's going to let him be special in a different way than he was with your brothers." And so I thank the Lord – my youngest son, he's a good boy, and I thank the Lord, and I think him and his dad are close. Bob: That had to break your heart, though, for your son to say, "It's not fair. I want a daddy like my brothers had." Donna: I know. It was – I struggle with the things – I was going to tell you that when – I remember one night John was laying on the couch there, and he said, "It's okay, God, that you let me be sick." Well, when he said that, you know, I said, "Oh, no, it's not okay." Because I just kept saying, "You know, Lord, you know, I married that other man back there, and I just would like to go back to that," and I struggled. That was one of my struggles – the Lord just saying, "Okay, Lord, it's okay." And it was easier for him to say it than for me to say it. I just had a hard time. And so the Lord and I have had many discussions over this. Bob: Do you feel like you've had two husbands? Donna: Yes, sir, I sure do. Dennis: What's the part of John before the illness that you miss the most? Donna: Probably the part just take the leadership and go on and just the energy just to go on and keep going into things. Dennis: So he was the leader, he was leading you and the family and the church and taking you in a direction. Donna: Yes, sir. And he was, you know, just never stopped, just keep going. Dennis: What's the part of the new John that you like the best? Donna: I like the best part is he's very loving, very kind. I guess the Lord slowed him down, and he slows down, and he appreciates things and is just – you know, when we slow down, it's amazing how many things we've learned to miss, you know, that we have missed along the way until we slow down. Dennis: John, as you hear your wife describe John prior to 1995, prior to the illness, as a man, and you are a man, I mean, you have to be like all the rest of us who want to say, "I want to be that man now." John: Mm-hm. Dennis: Do you feel that? John: Yes, I do, and yet they had some tapes of me preaching before my illness, but one day I listening one of my messages, and I was pretty harsh, and I was listening and "I don't like that guy," and I took tape out and threw it out window. [laughter] And I like the new me better. But, you know, my Donna puts it this way, said, before my illness I sort of knock them over the head but now I grab them by the heart. But, you know, I think the Lord just decided if I going to use John, I going to break him all the way down and start over. But what I know of me before, and what she telling me and so forth, I like the new me, and things don't bother me maybe like bother other people, because I've been through just so much, and not a whole lot more I could lose, you know? So, okay, that part of it, let's go on, and I have a good time. I tell people I'm a few fries short of a Happy Meal, but I'm happy. [laughter] Bob: You know, in circumstances like this, it's not unusual for people to say "Lord, why me? Why is this the path You put me on?" And it's not just the person who goes through the meningitis who asks that, but it's the person who is caring for the person who goes through the meningitis. How have you wrestled with the "Why me?" question, Donna? Donna: I have wrestled with it, that's, you know, why – you know, I kept telling the Lord, "Lord, we were fine," you know, "we were fine," but the Lord has just showed me, "Donna, I have something special for you," and I have learned so many things through this, and I thank the Lord that He's brought us through this because I love him more, and I love him in a different way, and it's closer, and God is able to use us. And if we're just willing to say, "Okay, Lord, it's all right. Whatever you bring to my life, I know it's for my good." Every day when I surrender the new thing that, "Okay, Lord, you can have that," and I was just – struggled. I hung onto the back things, I guess, because I could remember them. I hung onto the things in my past, and so – but every time I'd surrender, it was just so much better, and the Lord just eased and gave me so much comfort in knowing that the Lord has a reason for it. Bob: This is almost an impossible question for you to answer, but if the Lord came to you today and said, "Okay, I'll give you the old John, and we'll start from here with things the way they were, and we'll take everything of the last 15 years." Dennis: That's a hard question. Bob: You can have your choice, what do you want? If you could go back and undo the last 15 years and just kind of be on the path you were on, which is what you longed for at some point, would you pick that, do you think? Donna: No, sir. I'd take what the Lord has given us, I really would. Bob: You'd say, "This path has been the right one for me." Donna: Yes, sir. I think if you'd asked me that a few years ago, I'd probably have said no. But I know that God – this is God's plan for my life, and it's okay. Dennis: It's back to what John said earlier – "God is good, and He's right." Donna: Yes, sir. Dennis: And … Bob: … blessed be the name of the Lord, right? Dennis: Yeah, even though it's not been easy, you've begun to experience some of the benefit of the pain that you've been through. Can you share some of those benefits, what they would be? Donna: It's a closer relationship with the Lord. Also faith – just knowing that God's going to take care of us, regardless of what we go through. Dennis: Give us an illustration of that. How has He provided for you? Donna: Oh, He's taken care of everything. I mean, we have more than we need. As far as the physical things, God supplies everything. Every time he goes to the hospital, I think, "Oh, here we go again," you know, but the Lord always takes care of everything, and everything always gets paid, we never late on bills. God takes care of everything, and also our spiritual – God takes care of us spiritually, too, and gives us courage and strength and I think one thing that really touches my heart, too, is, you know, when John was in the hospital, you know, he'd just say the name of God, I knew he was praying to the Lord. And, you know, God does – He never leaves us or forsakes us regardless. And so, you know, John might have forgot everything, and John with that hard – I couldn't go through those things at the time with him, but the Lord was with him all the way through it. It doesn't matter how hard it gets, he's there. And so how hard it gets on me or whoever, God is there, and we've just got to trust Him. Dennis: John, do you have anything to add to that? John: Well, the Lord gives us grace not just endure but enjoy, and, you know, he doesn't just say, "Okay, I'll give you enough grace endure this," there are times of endurance, but most time it's enjoyment. And I get to travel, and I really cannot get to all the places people have invited me. It's just incredible. That's how I met one of your staff. I took my first trip California by myself, and on airplane. I told my Donna, "I can do it." Dennis: What's your vision? What is it again? John: I'm blind, legally blind. Dennis: But it's 20 what? John: I don't know the number. I can – one eye I can just make figures. Like, I can tell you're there, but I wouldn't be able to recognize you. Now, with these goggles that I have under here, I can read if I'm up close, and … Dennis: So how do you negotiate steps to get on a plane and to travel to California? John: You know, people are so nice to blind people. If you've got that cane, they get out of your way. [laughter] And I just able to make it through, and I called her, and I was there at the place, and I said, "Donna, nobody speaking English here, where am I?" [laughter] Dennis: You were in California. [laughter] John: She teasing – I was teasing her like I ended up another country or something. But, you know, it's been fun. One time I went and heard a speaker, she went with me, and this man said, "I know some of you out there got skeletons in your closet." Well, I not been taught that yet, and I'm thinking real, and I'm sitting there thinking, "Oh, mercy, if I knew somebody like that, I'd tell on them," you know? And who would do that? You know, and what skeleton is it? And I got home, and I said, "Donna, that man knew people there with skeletons, and he wouldn't tell on them." And she then had to explain to me. So I am learning all those things, but I do have fun, I do, and the Lord has been – just give me joy as well through the trials and I'm not always laughing, but I love hearing you, because you all laugh a lot, and I love be around happy people. Bob: John, when you started losing your eyesight eight months ago … John: Mm-hm, yes. Bob: You had to think, you know, "Lord, haven't I had enough? I mean, couldn't we just keep the eyes? That would sure be helpful." John: Yes. Oh, Bob, that was one of the biggest struggles. I should have been able to ace that one after what I've been through, but, I tell you, I struggled. At first I couldn't believe it happening. I thought, "Surely not." Then I thought, "Oh, this just be two or three week, and the Lord say, 'Okay, I just testing you.'" But it went on and on and on. I almost felt like when Abraham was asked to give his son, and I thought of my sight, oh, I remember, I'd tell God, "Okay, Lord, not my will, thine be done," and then I had to tell Him, "I sorry, Lord, I didn't mean it," like I needed to tell him, but, I mean, I knew I was just saying the words. Because my ministry been built around telling people that we can trust the Lord with anything, and we can go on. He said, "Rejoice in the Lord always," and I'd lost my joy over this. "Oh, God," I said, "I'm so sorry," and it was just like I raised the knife, and I believe Abraham, when God told him offer son, I think probably at the time God knew he really would do it. He stopped him and said, "Okay," and I finally got a point, "Okay, God, if you want the eyes, too, that is okay. I really do mean it." But that really was a big struggle for me. I should have been stronger, but I wasn't. Dennis: John, I was told when you were going to come down here that just from an illness standpoint and battling all that you're battling, you might not have the stamina. You've done remarkable. John: Thank you. Dennis: I mean, you're hanging in there with Bob's tough questions, and … Bob: Any headaches? You feeling okay? John: Yes, I do have headache, and my pain level each day, Bob, is around 5 or 6, between 1 and 10. When it get to 7, I have to medicate it a little bit; 8 and 9 I can live with. If it gets 10, I have to go emergency room. I getting stronger, but I not quite able handle 10. Bob: So where are you today right now? John: I about a 7. Dennis: Wow, wow. Bob: I don't know many people with a 7 … Dennis: Who would be doing radio. Bob: Or smiling or laughing or talking about how good God is. Dennis: And I think what our listeners don't see is, really, the smile on both their faces. Donna: That's what I appreciate about him, is he can be hurting so bad, but he still keeps going, and he complains some, yes, but, no, not like I would. I know why the Lord didn't give me the headaches. Dennis: Not like he could, because of what he's going through. Donna: No. John: I try to be good to her. She's been so good to me, and I love her. Donna: He's very good. John: I want to make her happy. There are two big goals in my life. Number one, make the Lord happy, number two, make my wife happy, and I love to be able to do that and get her things. When I learned I supposed to love her as much as Christ loved church and gave Himself for – I remember when I heard that, "Wow, that a lot of love. I got to work a whole bunch on this." There is nothing world I wouldn't do for her, and she wouldn't ask me to do something wrong or bad, but I think how good the Lord been to me. He's given me so many things. Dennis: I know there is one other thing you love to do, too, though. John: What's that? Dennis: You love to introduce people to the King of the Universe. John: Mm-hm. Dennis: Undoubtedly, there have been those who have heard your story, who don't know Him and who need to. Would you like to take their hand in yours and place it in God's hand, explain to them how they can come into relationship with Jesus Christ and with the Lord God Almighty?" John: Yes, yes, thank you so much. The Bible says the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance, and if people could just stop, and even if they've been through hard times, difficult times, God in His goodness gave us Son, Jesus, for us, that we might be saved and forgiven and be with Him one day. You see, when I die, all my suffering over. I read in Book of Revelation where John said, "in that city no more pain." And, boy, howdy, am I looking forward to that – no more pain. The God that wants to give us that place of no more pain is Jesus Christ. He gave us life, He shed His blood. It took a good God to give His Son. It took a good Savior to give His life so that if a person realizes they're a sinner, puts their faith and trust in Jesus Christ, He'll save them the moment they turn to Him. And that's a good God, and I just beg people not turning away. I have had atheists saved, Dennis. I had one atheist get saved, and he said to me, he said, "John, I couldn't argue with you. You just kept saying God good, and he said I finally one day I realize why have I turned down such a good God all these years?" And he gave his life to Christ. I would love to know somebody give their life to Christ. He's a good God. Dennis: And I would say to that person right now who is listening, why don't you take the offer that God is making on behalf of you? The good God we've talked about who gave His Son, Jesus Christ. You don't have to get down on your knees. You can do it right where you are, driving in a car, listening on an iPod or computer. But if you want to, it would be a good idea to get down on your knees and just surrender your life to Christ. It is the greatest decision you'll ever make. And, John, I just want to thank you and Donna for telling your story and for allowing us the privilege of – and, Bob, I know you and I have worked together long enough, I know you feel the same – it's just an honor to be in the studio with you. Thank you. John: It's been an honor for us, too. Bob: We want to make sure that those listeners who are interested in establishing a relationship with God through Jesus Christ, and we want to invite you to get in touch with us. There's a book we'd love to send you that's call "Pursuing God," that explains what it means to have a right relationship with God through Christ, and this book is available to you at no cost. All you have to do is call 1-800-FLTODAY, and when someone answers the phone just say, I am interested in becoming a Christian, and I'd like a copy of that book, and it will be our privilege to send it out to you, and we trust God will use it to help you begin to establish an ongoing relationship with God through Christ. Again, the title of the book is "Pursuing God," and you can request it when you call 1-800-FLTODAY. You can also request a copy of the CD of our conversation with John and Donna Bishop. We have that in our FamilyLife Resource Center, and when you contact us, we'll let you know how you can receive that CD. You can either order it online at FamilyLife.com, or you can call us at 1-800-FLTODAY, and we'll make arrangements to send a copy or to send multiple copies to you, if you'd like. Again, the details of how you can order the CD are found online at FamilyLife.com or simply call 1-800-358-6329. That's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY, and someone on our team will let you know how you can get the CD sent to you. I don't know how many times, Dennis, I have seen you turn in your Bible to Matthew 7 where Jesus concludes the Sermon on the Mount by talking about two different builders. One builder who built his house on the rock and the other who built his house on the sand, and you have reminded us that when storms come in life, the kinds of storms like John and Donna Bishop have experienced, it's really a test of our foundation on what is our life and our marriage built? And each day we have an opportunity to strengthen the foundation of our marriage as we spend time with God together as a couple. A few months ago, you and your wife Barbara wrote a book called "Moments With You," a daily devotional book for couples to encourage them to spend time praying together, looking at the Scriptures together and talking about their marriage relationship and about their family. And this week we are making that hardback book available to listeners who support the ministry of FamilyLife Today with a donation of any amount. We are listener-supported, so your donations are critical, they're vital, to keeping us on the air in this city and in other cities all across the country, and when you make a donation either online or by phone this week, we want you to feel free to request a copy of the book, "Moments With You," as a way of saying thank you for your financial support of this ministry. If you're donating online, there will be a keycode box you'll come to on your donation form, and we just need you to type the word "You," y-o-u, in that keycode box, and we'll know to send a copy of the book, "Moments With You" out to you, or call 1-800-FLTODAY. You can make a donation right over the phone and just mention that you'd like a copy of the daily devotional, "Moments With You." Again, we're happy to send it out to you as our way of saying thanks for your financial support and for your partnership with us. Well, tomorrow we're going to meet another very remarkable couple. A couple that has weathered a significant storm in their marriage. We'll introduce you to Charlie and Lucy Wedemeyer tomorrow, and I hope you can be back with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow. _______________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
God is Good (Part 1) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 2) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 3) - John & Donna BishopToday® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Forgetting What Lies Behind Guest: John and Donna BishopFrom the series: God is So Good Bob: There are moments that come along unexpectedly – moments where the foundation of our life or our marriage is rattled. John and Donna Bishop experienced one of those moments 15 years ago. Donna: Everything was just great, we were just having a great time serving the Lord. Our boys and our families and then, all of a sudden, that night he got sick, and the pain in the back of his head just got severe, and he said, "You're going to have to take me to the hospital," and so I took him to the hospital and … John: When I woke up from meningitis, I did not know her. I really didn't know anything. I had a very unusual case of amnesia that I didn't just forget names and people, I forgot everything. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, August 4th. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. What happens to a marriage when, all of a sudden, all the memories, all of the past, is gone. Stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Monday edition. This is going to be a powerful week for our listeners. Dennis: It is. In fact, Bob, you and I both talked about this interview that our listeners are about to hear. It's a top five broadcast – you and I have been doing interviews for – well, coming up on 16 years – that's a few people. I'm kind of looking across at you, and I'm kind of going, "That's a long time." Bob: You're an old-looking guy. Dennis: We're kind of getting to be codgers in here. But, I'm going to tell you, pull up a chair, get you a cup of coffee or a Coke or a glass of water. This week you are going to hear an incredible compelling story of the goodness of God and the love of God. This is another one of those love stories, Bob, that Hollywood just knows very little about. This is a love story right from the pages of Scripture. Bob: Yes, you're going to meet John and Donna Bishop today. They were married back in 1974. John is a pastor and an evangelist. They live in Rosebud, Arkansas, which is in north central Arkansas. Dennis: It's just near Hopewell, which is a suburb of Heber Springs. Bob: Oh, now folks have got it perfectly in mind. They know exactly where that … Dennis: They know exactly where that is. Bob: John and Donna have three sons, and, as you are about to find out, their story is a remarkable one. John: All I remember is from 1995 to this day. I remember nothing before that, so everything about my life that happened beforehand is what I've been told. And my wife, her name, Donna, but I called her "my Donna." When I woke up from meningitis, I did not know her. I didn't know me, my name, I didn't know – I really didn't know anything. I had a very unusual case of amnesia that I didn't just forget names and people, I forgot everything. I didn't know how to eat, I'd forgotten how to chew food, and I had to eat baby food, and I don't blame babies being grouchy, if you had to eat that long. Dennis: So, okay, I'm going to stop you right there. John: Okay. Dennis: Since Donna does know what was taking place in your life up to 1995, I'm going to turn to her. Describe your lives in the 1990s, Donna. What was John doing and what were you up to? Donna: Okay. We were pastoring a church there in Heber Springs, and we had a good church. We enjoyed everything was going great. We had three sons, and they were growing up. We also worked on our youth camp there, lived on the campgrounds and started the youth camp, and were just – I would say it was a perfect life. You know, everything was just great, we were just having a great time serving the Lord, our boys, and our families, and then, all of a sudden that night he got sick, and the pain in the back of his head just got severe, and he said, "You're going to have to take me to the hospital." So I took him to the hospital and … Bob: So it came on in an instant like that. One night? Donna: No, he had been a little sick, just having headaches and so forth, and then it just started getting severe that night, and we just took him to the hospital. Bob: Were you scared? Donna: In a way, you know, because the pain just kept getting worse, you know, so – but, you know, you always think, "Oh, we can take him to the hospital and they'll be fine," you know, "be home tomorrow." Dennis: Right. Donna: But he was there about five days, six days, and he got to feeling better and, of course, once men start feeling better, they want to get out of that hospital, and so he got out of the hospital and came home, and it was almost one month to the day, he got out of the hospital is really when I believe the damage was done, or that's when something happened that he was sitting in his rocking chair, had his devotions over in a rocking chair, and he just kept sitting there and sitting there, and I thought, "Okay," you know, "let's get on with things," and he just kept sitting there. And so I went over and shook him, and he couldn't wake up, he couldn't – he was just kind of staring off. And I said, "John, what's the matter John?" And I was talking to him, and he just couldn't answer me, and then, of course, we took him back to the doctor, and it was just from there on it's been slow go. Bob: Now, the diagnosis was aseptic meningitis? Donna: Yes, sir. Bob: And this response, a month after the initial diagnosis, this is not what usually happens to people who have meningitis, is it? Donna: No, sir. You know, I don't know, I'm not a doctor, but I don't know if we didn't give him the medicine long enough or exactly what it is, but I know the Lord has a reason for it, and so – because that was when everything started going down hill, you might say, to us, you know, because he couldn't walk, and we had to help him around, and his eyes were distorted, so he couldn't drive, and he couldn't – well, he didn't know how to read, he forgot how to read. Dennis: And, ultimately, he lost all of his memory prior to 1995? Donna: Yes, sir. And I kept thinking, "Okay, now, he'll get it back," so he didn't remember marriage or wedding, and so I get our photo album out, and I said, "Don't you remember" you know, and I'd try to trick him to say, "Okay, now, I know he can remember something," and I just kept trying to go back and – but he just doesn't have anything. Dennis: In 1995, you'd been married how long? Donna: Twenty-four years. Dennis: Twenty-four years, had three children, you were pastoring a church, and you'd started a ranch? Donna: Yes, sir. It's a youth camp, a church youth camp for boys and girls that come there. Dennis: All right, John, back to you. How do you develop a relationship with a wife that you don't remember marrying? Bob: Well, you didn't even know what marriage was, did you? John: No, I didn't. When she began to teach me, she said, "You're John, I, Donna, we're married." And the way I learned to talk, Bob, in those early days, I'd watch people's lips move. I wasn't blind then. I've only been blind about eight months, but I would watch people's lips move and put the sound with it. I said, "Marry? Marry?" and she said, "Oh, okay, you forgot that. That means you belong to me, and I belong to you." I looked at her, I'd say, "You my Donna?" She said, "Yes." That's what I call her ever since – "My Donna." It was so easy to love her. She loved me so good. I'd tell people she taught me everything I know – every woman dream come true. Her husband forget it all and she get to teach him. [laughter] Everything I know is what my wife taught me. But I tell everybody she taught me reading, writing, and kissing, and my favorite subject kissing, that's my favorite one. Dennis: So that didn't change? John: No, that didn't. I didn't – I had a hard time finding her lips, but I kissed until I find them, that's what I do. [laughter] Dennis: Donna, what kind of student was he? Donna: He worked hard, he really did. He's a pretty good student. Sometimes when he's done, he's done, you know? Sometimes he'd tell me, he said, "Remember, I'm the husband." Dennis: Oh, so he did find out what that meant? Donna: Oh, yes, it didn't take him long to have that man thing, I guess. Bob: It's one thing to take your husband to the hospital and maybe he comes home with a physical disability, and now life is going to have to change because he has to use a walker, or he's got to be in a wheelchair, or he's got something physically that's an issue, but to have a husband come home – I had a friend describe your husband's condition by saying, "It's like a computer that had the hard disk completely erased. There is no data left there." To have that be the situation and to be a wife and go, "This is the man I went to Bible school with and raised my kids, and he can't remember any of it. Our shared history is gone." That had to be – I can't even imagine the discouragement that you must have felt. Donna: It was very discouraging, and that's why I kept trying to do those tricks, trying to think, "Okay, he's got to remember something," you know? It was hard. It was almost like I had four boys instead of three. Dennis: Was there anything to prepare you for the kind of commitment this was going to take? I mean, marriage is a covenant, but your commitment was challenged to the core, wasn't it? Donna: Yes, sir, it sure was. I thank the Lord. I think the main reason was because I had a good home church when I grew up, and I went to church faithfully, my parents loved each other, and I was always taught that when you're married, you're married for life. And when you say "For better for worse, in sickness and health," you're in for the long haul, you know? And so I never even thought about divorce – that never even crossed my mind. In a way, I guess I just busied myself into fixing the problem, you know? Okay, we've got a problem here. We need to start working on it, and, Lord, you've just got to help give me wisdom to know – because, also, all the decisions that he made as the husband now were put on me as far as my children and how many doctors to go to and who to go to and who not to go to, and I always tell ladies now, I say, "Listen, you need to thank the Lord for your husband's leadership." I mean, I was always thankful for my husband to make the decisions and so forth, but when I had to take that role, it was just something that made me appreciate the position that God has given me to be under my husband so that he could make those decisions for me. And so I'm just very thankful that I was taught those things, and God's just really helped me through these things. Dennis: How old were those children at the time? Donna: My youngest was 10, the next one was, like, 17, and my other one was, like, 22, I think. Dennis: Wow, there was a lot going on in your life just raising them. Donna: Yes, sir. Dennis: Now, John, I want you to know we haven't forgotten you. John: Okay. Dennis: We know you're here, but we have to get a little bit of the drama that's taking place. John: Yes. Dennis: You came out of the hospital and arrived back home, and you were in a state of – was it almost like paralysis? Or were you just – you couldn't walk, you couldn't talk. You could see – you had eyesight, right? John: Yes, uh-huh. Dennis: You could hear. John: Yes. Dennis: But you didn't know how to eat? John: No, and I didn't know what words were. That's why I couldn't read or write, and my Donna taught me phonics, finally, and my 10-year-old son would come home from school, sit on the couch and help Daddy learn to read. And my oldest son was in college, the other just finishing high school, been going college, but my family just so good to me, people were just so good. My church was so – I remember, even, when she brought me home from hospital that one time, and they opened the door of car, my dog, golden retriever, came over put head in lap, and I said, "Even my dog loved me." It wasn't really a bad world to wake up to, because everybody in it loved me. And, you know, my first memories of anything about life was my Donna rubbing my hand, telling me, "I love you, it will be all right, everything will be all right," and … Dennis: You knew what those words meant? John: In some way I did. She would have to been sort of point out to me what, like, words "good" and "bad" meant and it's hard to really explain. It was just a blank, and so she would begin to do – teach me these different things, and then as I began to pick up concepts is what it was, and the way I picked up on reading, I couldn't figure out what letters on books – how are they reading. Until one day she got me dressed for church and set me in the living room and on the coffee table was a kindergarten book she going to teach that morning Sunday school and big pictures, Bible story, and what I did, Dennis, I would listen to the Bible every day on tape, because I couldn't read, and I would listen to two tapes a day, three hours, and I remember when she told me what the Bible was – see, I didn't know what I was, either? I said, "What am I?" She said, "You a preacher." I said, "What a preacher is?" And she said, "Well, that's somebody tell others what God what them know." I said, "Wow, I couldn't be thing better that. You reckon Lord let me keep doing it?" And I began to learn concepts, and when I saw those pictures and the big words underneath it, "Moses" and "Red Sea," then I knew that was what I'd been listening to in Bible, and I hollered, "Donna, I can read, I can read." Then I knew what words were, and so that's how I began learning. Dennis: Yeah, how did you know who God was? John: You know, I knew I knew God but I didn't know how I knew God and, matter of fact, in the hospital, one of my doctors said this – I would mumble things, because I knew I supposed to say things, but I didn't know how to. So my doctor said the only word we could make out was the word "God," and it was, like, Dennis, I forgot everybody and everything but God. But I didn't know how I knew Him until through the Bible listening. Of course, my family telling me, "You're a Christian," but I didn't know what that was, and, you know, my church told me, and they loved me, and so forth, but it was a process of me learning and listening to the Bible and what gave me the great assurance was Romans, chapter 8, where he says, "His spirit bear witness with our spirit that we're children of God." And I'd gotten a little worried. You know, it was – when I'd listen to the Bible, Judas Iscariot scared me, because I thought, "Here a preacher that didn't really know or love the Lord." So I thought "Just because I preacher doesn't mean I really know the Lord and just because people tell me," but when I listened to that verse, it was like God said, "John, it my job tell you you're my child. That's my spirit witnessing and after that I never had doubt after that I had that assurance in my heart from this word. That's how I know you, God, but I can't remember praying a prayer. I wrote it in my Bible as a teenage boy, and I've still got that, and some people, Dennis, just put a date. I wrote a whole page, and I treasure that. God knew I'd lose it all one day, and I had a whole page. I was brought up in a lost home. My dad and stepdad had died before my illness, so I don't have any memory of them, but my mother was still alive. She with the Lord now, and Mama told me that I from an alcoholic home. She said, "John, I'm glad you forgot your childhood, it was real rough," but she said I led my dad to the Lord before he had died, my stepdad, and I led her to the Lord. You know, I told my family, "Don't tell me everything, just what I need to know," because you don't really want to know everything sometime," so when I went to Mama's funeral, my aunt came up and said, "John, you used to send your mom a rose every year for she was sober after she got saved." And I said, "Stella, what would this be?" She said, "It would be 12." And so I bought 12 roses and put there, and my aunt and I knew what it was. And so the Lord has been good to help me, and I so glad Mama got to – she'd one day telling me about childhood. I said, "Boy, Mama, I didn't know I was such a good boy." She said, "Remember, I just tell the half of it." [laughter] Bob: Well, we've been listening today to part 1 of an incredible story as we have talked to John and Donna Bishop about what the Lord took them through. This is more than a decade ago, now, Dennis, and, you know, all of us, as we shared our vows with one another getting married, we pledged for better, for worse, in sickness and in health, and we may have stopped to think, "Well, how bad can it be?" or "How sick can somebody get?" Who could imagine a scenario like this, like what Donna faced? It's remarkable. Dennis: It really is, Bob, and I just want to let our listeners in on a little secret – don't miss the rest of the story – just the love story that we've heard of Donna Bishop hanging in there with her husband. I know we're talking to some spouses right now who are hanging in there with the person they pledged through sickness and in health, for better, for worse, and right now it's sickness, and it's worse. You needed to hear the story to give you courage, and I just want to read you Paul's great writings about what love is, because the world cheapens what love is, and the Bible speaks so clearly. I'm not going to read all of it, but 1 Corinthians 13, verse 4, "Love is patient, love is kind. It's not jealous, does not brag, and is not arrogant." Verse 7 – "It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things" – now, listen to these last three words – "endures all things." The only way you get that kind of love is by knowing the God – the God who redeemed John and Donna Bishop and who put that kind of love in their hearts for one another. Bob: And that's the – as they used to say, "That's the genuine article." Dennis, right after we had finished talking with the Bishops, I asked if I could get a couple of copies of the CD of the interview, because I meet with a group of guys on Wednesday night, and I wanted them to hear the conversation, and those guys came back the following Wednesday, and they said, "Can we get more copies of that CD? We've got friends we want to send it to. There are people who need to hear this powerful story." And we do have CDs of our conversation with John and Donna available in our FamilyLife Resource Center. If you are interested in getting a copy or multiple copies to share with friends, go to our website, FamilyLife.com. You can click on where it says, "Today's Broadcast," on the right side of the home page, and that will take you to a part of the site where there is more information about how to order the CD of this conversation and how you can get multiple copies, if you'd like. Again, the website if FamilyLife.com, and you click on the right side of the home page where you see "Today's Broadcast," or just call us at 1-800-FLTODAY, 1-800-358-6329, and someone on our team will let you know how you can get a copy of the CD sent to you. You know, when you pull back a story like this, and you hear from a couple like John and Donna, you know that the storm that they faced, they endured, and they stayed strong, because they had spent years building a foundation in their relationship that kept them pressed close to God and close to one another. Dennis: That's right. Bob: I know when you and Barbara sat down and began working on the devotional book for couples, "Moments With You," your hope was that couples all across the country would establish a regular discipline of building their relationship with God and with one another by spending time together looking at His Word, considering the dynamics of a marriage relationship and then praying together each day for their marriage and for their family. And there have been thousands of folks who have contacted us and asked for a copy of this devotional book, "Moments With You." This week we're making it available to our listeners who contact us to make a donation of any amount for the ministry of FamilyLife Today. If you go online at FamilyLife.com, or if you call 1-800-FLTODAY, and you make a donation of any amount, we want you to feel free to request a copy of the hardback book, the 365-day devotional for couples called "Moments With You." Now, if you're making your donation online, when you come to the keycode box on the donation form, just type the word "You" – y-o-u. And we'll know to send a copy of the book your way. Or call 1-800-FLTODAY, that's 1-800-358-6329, make a donation of any amount over the phone and just request a copy of the devotional guide for couples, "Moments With You." We're happy to send it to you. We trust that you can use it to begin a regular habit in your marriage of coming together each day, taking a few minutes to read the Scriptures and to pray together, and we trust that God will use this tool in your life. And we appreciate your financial support for the ministry of FamilyLife Today as well. Thanks for partnering with us. Now, we want to invite you back tomorrow. We're going to begin to look carefully at what it took for John and Donna Bishop to rebuild their life and their marriage together after John's memory had been completely erased. I hope you can join us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow. ________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. 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Wisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 1) - John WoodenWisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 2) - John WoodenWisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 3) - John WoodenFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. The Pyramid of SuccessDay 3 of 3 Guest: John Wooden From the series: True Success: A Personal Visit with John Wooden Bob: There are a lot of skills in life that, according to Coach John Wooden, are more important than being able to hit a jumpshot or sink a free throw in the middle of a basketball game. One of the character qualities that Coach Wooden tried to instill in all of his players was the quality of poise, which he defines as being comfortable with just being yourself. John: The person who has poise is not acting, they're not pretending, they're not trying to be something they're not. They are themselves, therefore, they are going to function in whatever they're doing near their own particular level of confidence. There will be no fear, no trepidation at all. They'll function near their own particular level of confidence, because they're not pretending, they're not trying to be something they're not. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Friday, April 4th. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. Before you sit down to watch the games this weekend, you ought to hear what The Coach has to say. Stay with us. And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Friday edition. How does this work? This is April, but this is the end of March Madness. So is this just kind of a spillover? Technically, is this April Madness that we're going to experience? Dennis: I think it's March Madness without aspirin – there's been no cure, Bob. Bob: Tomorrow, of course, are the semi-finals in college basketball, and then Monday night the championship game in what's called The Final Four, and it's all over the papers and all over the TV, and it's even here on FamilyLife Today, although we're not talking about this year's Final Four. We are talking with a man who has been there year in and year out. Dennis: He really has – Coach John Wooden coached UCLA to 10 national championships out of 12 years. What a great man. I just remember watching, as a young lad, his championship teams – the first year he won, 1964 – Gale Goodrich helped win that national championship. He came back the next year and scored over 40 points in a game, and it's funny how you can remember those things as a kid, but basketball was a very important part of my life, and I think parents need to pay attention to their children's athletics. Not just for their performance and whether or not they win the championships but the kind of coaches they have, the kind of influence that they have on them. And, Bob, you know, you were there when I received a phone call from the Washington Post asking me for my opinion if a parent should be informed if their daughter is going to play for a coach who is a lesbian, and they were wanting to know what I thought about that, and my ultimate point was character does matter, and a person's sexual practice and sexual preference are a reflection of his or her true character. And Coach Wooden grew up in a family where he learned character, and he raised a family where they had great character. In fact, his daughter was in the room where we were interviewing him, and she was smiling so big during this interview, and she told us later it was one of her favorite interviews she's ever heard with her daddy who, at the time, Coach Wooden was 91 years of age. And she was just beaming, because we were drilling down deep around the stories that surrounded their family. Bob: You had asked him about regrets from coaching and yesterday we heard him share some of those regrets, and then you turned the conversation and asked him about any regrets at home. Here is our interview with Coach John Wooden: Dennis: I know something that I heard that you did that you don't regret, and that was spanking your daughter one time when she was in the fifth grade. You're laughing. You think it was the right thing? John: Yes, I think it was the right thing. Dennis: Tell us about it. John: Well, she had wanted very much a wristwatch, and I couldn't get the wristwatch at the time. I had one coming for her. I got her – and we got a cameo ring that we thought was very pretty and very nice, and when we gave it to her, we had some guests there – some friends – and she wanted the wristwatch. She took that cameo ring and threw it, and she went to her room in a hurry with me after her, and I spanked her. I think it's the only spanking that Nancy ever got from me. I spanked her. But what hurt her a lot is I made her march back in and apologize to our friends, and I think that hurt her worse. I didn't hurt her too much on the spanking. I remember that. That's the only time. Dennis: You were married for 53 years before Nellie's death. John: Correct. Dennis: It's my understanding that you have a tradition on the anniversary of her death – something that you're doing on a regular basis in honor of her. John: Oh, I write her a letter, mm-hm. We, Nan and Jim and I go to the cemetery, and we write her a letter. Dennis: Just a letter expressing your heart, your love, your appreciation for the 53 years you shared with her? John: More than that – there were several years before, you know, and still – still. Dennis: She was a soulmate. John: Indeed. Dennis: How so? John: Well, it will be kind of hard to explain just from first time, but there was something there almost from the first time we ever got acquainted, and she was the one for me, she was the one for me, she was the one for me. Bob: Did she love basketball like you loved basketball? John: She loved what I loved. Bob: So if you loved basketball, she loved basketball. John: That's right. My main regret is that I didn't do the things that she liked to do. She always did the things that I did. She liked to dance, and I didn't. I regret that I didn't learn to do more of the things – maybe go to operas and learn to dance and things of that sort. Those are things I regret. Dennis: What was your favorite quality about her? John: I don't know how to answer favorites – it's just love, just love – something about her – I just loved her. Dennis: Tell us how your relationship with Jesus Christ fit into your marriage and your family? John: Well, I think that started going back in my early years. My mother and father just good Christian people – not because they went to church and had us all go to church I don't think, necessarily, going to church makes you a good Christian, but Dad, I think, always reading the Scriptures every night, and I think that encouraged the children. Dennis: Was there a time when you made a commitment as a young man or a boy to Jesus Christ that you look back on as being the time when your faith began? John: I wish I could say that, but I can't. I was baptized in 1927 with Nellie, because she wanted me to, and my parents wanted me to – and her parents – so I was baptized. But in my heart I didn't really accept Christ then, and when I did, I can't say. It wasn't a sudden overnight thing – something didn't happen. I think it was just a gradual thing that came along. I've heard of people saying one thing happened and it changed. There wasn't any one thing. Bob: Apart from your mom and dad, were there spiritual influences in your life as you went through coaching and as you continued as an adult? John: Well, to some extent, many of the things that – I loved Lincoln – and many of the things of his life and his wonderful ability to say so much in just a few words and those things, and he was a spiritual man. I think perhaps Billy Graham has always stood out to me above all others, and I don't want to say that the others aren't, but he just has stood out a little more in spiritual things. And there have been things that have happened in my life that were strange – I wouldn't call them exactly spiritual. I was in the service, I was to go aboard the USS Franklin in the South Pacific, and I had an emergency appendectomy, and somebody else went in my place, and that person who took my place was killed. It wasn't my time. Bob: The variety of players that you've had over the years – you've seen young men with all different orientations on life – some who have no interest in anything spiritual or religious; some who were devoutly interested in spiritual or religious things; in fact, it may have gotten in the way of their basketball sometimes, their interest in religious things, I don't know. And then, of course, in a high-profile sense, you had one young man who had a very high-profile conversion that involved a name change. What did you think when Lew Alcindor came and said, "I don't want to be called Lew anymore. My new name is Kareem." John: He never talked to me about it, and that wasn't done until after he was out of school. I've had three players that have done that – all outstanding players. Walter Hazzard was the first one – he changed Abdul-Rahman, but that was after he was out of school. But here he has – his father's a minister, and he did. And the third one is Keith Wilkes – now it's Jamaal. I don't think I've ever known a finer person than Jamaal Wilkes – I don't know of a finer person, and his father also is a minister. Now, he's the one that talked to me – all this happened after they left UCLA. He asked me what I thought about it, and I said, "Well, it seems that most religions rely on our second commandment and not the first," which I don't approve of it, but I said, "What does your dad say?" He said, "About the same thing as you said." Dennis: Coach, when I was a young man, I was in junior college – I think it was my sophomore year, when you played Houston in the Astrodome in front of 52,000 fans. It was a big showdown – number one, UCLA, undefeated, with Lew Alcindor against Elvin Hayes and the number-two ranked Houston Cougars. John: It was the most widely televised athletic event for that time – the most widely televised, and there was about 52,000, they tell me, paid, but over 55,000 in there. Bob: A few guys snuck in without paying, huh? (laughter) Dennis: What were you feeling? I mean, did you feel anything any different about that game than any other game? John: No, I didn't. I didn't think it was a place to play basketball – had that floor way out there, and you're a quarter of a mile from your dressing room. I told me players that if they had needs to go to the bathroom, they better do it quick, because we're not going to have time for you to walk a quarter of a mile to go do it. It was a tremendous ball game, and it was good for basketball, very good for basketball. Dennis: As you have been a coach over the years, and a teacher, you have developed a definition of success and what you'd call the Pyramid of Success. Could you just explain, just briefly, to our listeners the definition of success and what you've created here in this Pyramid of Success? John: Well, first of all, as an English teacher, I became a little bit disappointed, disillusioned somewhat that parents of youngsters in my English classes – many, if they're youngster did not receive and A or a B in one way or another I found that many parents would make the youngster or the teacher feel that they had failed. Now, our good Lord, in His infinite wisdom, didn't create us all alike as far as intelligence is concerned, any more than we're not alike as far as appearance or size or anything else. Not everybody could earn an A or B, and I had youngsters that didn't that I thought did very well. I'd be proud of them if I were the parent. But I didn't like that way of judging, and I wanted to come up with my own definition of success, and it came from three things. One, my father tried to teach us to never try to be better than somebody else. Always learn from others and never cease trying to be the best you can be. That's under your control, and the other isn't, and if you get too involved and engrossed and concerned in regard to things over which you have no control, it will adversely affect the things over which you have control. And I also recalled a discussion in class that we'd had many years before where success was discussed and most everyone went along with Mr. Webster's definition – "the accumulation of material possession or the attainment of position of power or prestige," or something of that sort. And then I ran across a verse, and as you have indicated, I like verse, and I ran across this simple verse that said, "At God's footstool to confess, a poor soul knelt and bowed his head; 'I have failed,' he cried; the Master said 'Thou didst thy best.' That is success." I believe that's true. And from those three things I coined my own definition of success. Success is peace of mind attained only through self-satisfaction in knowing you made the effort to become the best of which you are capable, and you're the only one who will know that. You can fool everybody else. It's like character and reputation – your character – you're the only one that knows, and you're reputation is what you're perceived to be by others, but your character is what you really are. So that was what I wanted to use to help me become a better teacher and to give the youngsters under my supervision something to which to aspire other than just a higher mark or more points in some athletic endeavor, but it didn't seem to be serving a purpose for which I had hoped, and I had tried to analyze it, and I came to the conclusion that it would be much better if I came up with something you could see. But it gave me an idea of a pyramid, and I started working on that, and I worked on it for the next 14 years. But somehow the first two blocks I selected were the cornerstones, and if any structure is to have any real strength and solidity, it must have a strong foundation, and the cornerstones anchor it, and I used "industrious" and "enthusiasm," and I believe that today. From those two, and I think they're strong – you have to enjoy what you're doing, and you have to work hard. You can't work near your own particular ability level unless you enjoy what you're doing. You may think you are, but you can't unless you really enjoy it. And, along with the foundation, I wanted blocks that included others, so I chose "friendship," "loyalty," and "cooperation," and then gradually moved up to the second tier – "self-control," "alertness," "initiative" and "intentness." And then going up to the heart, which I call being in condition for whatever you're doing – whether you're an athlete, whether you're a surgeon, whether you're a deep-sea diver – whatever you are – being in condition for whatever you're doing can be attained by practicing moderation. And then you have to have the skills. You must know how to do things, you must be able to do it, and you must be able to do them quickly, oftentimes. Then "team spirit" – that's consideration for others. I could talk on that for a long time – consideration for others. And all these blocks below will help you become confident. You can't have confidence unless you're prepared. Failure to prepare is preparing to fail, and you can't have confidence without being prepared, or you can't have that without the blocks below. You must have confidence, and then you must have poise, and I also coined my own definition of poise and poise, to me, is just being yourself. The person who has poise is not acting, they're not pretending, they're not trying to be something they're not. They are themselves, therefore, they are going to function in whatever they're doing near their own particular level of confidence. There will be no fear, no trepidation at all. They'll function near their own particular level of confidence, because they're not pretending, they're not trying to be something they're not. And all these blocks will make you competitive – competitive. You'll enjoy it, you'll enjoy it. There's joy in being involved in something difficult. There's no great joy in doing things that anybody else can do, although they must be done to the best of your ability regardless of whether difficult or easy, but the joy comes in being involved in a difficult situation, and these blocks below will bring them up. And then leading up to the apex on which success rests, I put on one side, "patience" and "faith." Good things take time and should. We don't want them to, but they should. Things should take time, and we must have faith. We must have faith that things will work out as they should, which doesn't mean that they'll work out exactly as we want them to. But if we have faith, and we do what we should – too often we want things to happen a certain way, but we don't do the things that would necessarily help that become reality. We just want it to happen. But you have to have faith. If you do what you should, things will work out as they should. So that's a very brief synopsis of the pyramid. Dennis: Well, I'm sitting here looking at the actual pyramid, Bob, and we're going to put it on the website as well – FamilyLife.com – and give folks a picture of this pyramid and what it exactly is, but he nailed it perfectly. Bob: Without looking at it. Dennis: Without looking at the copy I've got. I just want to say, Coach, to you, thank you for living an exemplary life, for being a man who has taught many of us over your lifetime, and I just appreciate you joining Bob and me and cheering on some moms and dads and husbands and wives who are in the throes of raising the next generation of young people. Thanks for helping us build a great team here on FamilyLife Today. John: You're very kind, and I appreciate the kind words. Bob: Well, that is the voice of legendary coach John Wooden who, today, is 92 years old, and undoubtedly on his way to catch the games this weekend and Monday night in the Final Four. He said he's been to most of them, even since his retirement, and just to hear the humility in his voice. That was characteristic of Coach Wooden all the way through his life, wasn't it? Dennis: It really was and, again, I just had to go back to the Book of Proverbs and think about Solomon speaking to his son and exhorting him – "acquire understanding, embrace wisdom, listen to the words of your father. Heed them, and you'll live. If you don't, you'll be a fool, and you'll die." And Coach Wooden has exhorted us over the past couple of days to heed well our assignments in life, whether we be single, married, parents, grandparents, but to leave a legacy. You remember, Bob, I told our listeners that there was a story I was going to conclude today with that is a real favorite, and I want to do that in just a moment, but I want you to tell our listeners how they can get a copy of this CD that we're making available for – not just the basketball players, but for dads and for coaches of any and every sport that your children may know. Bob: It's actually a two-CD set that features our entire conversation with Coach Wooden, much of which we were not able to include over the last three days here on FamilyLife Today. This hour-and-47-minute conversation took place not long ago as we sat down with Coach Wooden and just probed issues relating to his life, his marriage, his family, his coaching, and his view of success, and it's a great tool to pass on, as you said, Dennis, to players, to coaches, to enthusiasts, to fans. It's a great way to open a door and begin to talk with them about what makes up true greatness in a life and in a profession. Dennis: You may want to consider getting multiple copies of these CDs because you really only heard about half of the material, over the last three days, that are on these sets that we recorded. Bob: You can call us at 1-800-FLTODAY to request the two-CD set. Again, it's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY. You can also go online to order at FamilyLife.com. While you're online, you can see John Wooden's Pyramid of Success. The Coach sat down, and he has got the mind of an engineer and the soul of a poet, and he laid out for us a pyramid, where he said here's what I think real success looks like, and how you achieve competitive greatness. It's built on poise and confidence and then on conditioning and skill and team spirit. He lays out all of the qualities that make up real success. We've got a video where Coach explains that success pyramid along with a mousepad that has the pyramid on it and a pocket-sized card you can carry along that has some of Coach Wooden's counsel on how to live on this wallet-size card. It would be a great gift to give to somebody who loves the sport, loves The Coach. You can call 1-800-FLTODAY for more information about these resources or about the two-CD set of our interviews with Coach Wooden. Again, it's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY. Dennis. Dennis: I mentioned a story that I was going to share about – at the end of our interview, we got up to leave, and Coach Wooden was using a cane to kind of make his way to the elevator, and he gave me a book and you, too, I believe, Bob, and I took the book, and it was about leadership, and I said, "Coach, would you just mind signing that to me, and as you did, Coach," I said, "you don't know this about me, but I was pretty good in high school. I set the school record, which still stands, for most points scored. I played junior college basketball on scholarship and, Coach, I remember watching you as a kid growing up," and I said, "If you wouldn't mind, Coach, would you just write in the front – 'To Dennis – you could have played for me at UCLA. Signed, Coach John Wooden,' and then date it." He looked up at me, and a little mischievous grin worked its way across his lips, and he said, "Dennis, we just talked about integrity, didn't we? I can't do that." He said, "But here," and he reached up, kind of in a spry way and took the book from my hands, and began to write, and he was just getting a bigger and bigger grin as he wrote, and he closed the cover and handed it back to me and said, "There you go." And I now have that book in my office. It says, "To Dennis – Since I never recruited out of state, why didn't you call me? Coach John Wooden." That will be one of my prized possessions in everything that I own. Bob: FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
A Biblical Look at Aging (Part 1) - Howard HendricksA Biblical Look at Aging (Part 2) - Howard HendricksFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. What Retirement is NOTDay 1 of 2 Guest: Dr. Howard Hendricks From the Series: What Retirement is NOT________________________________________________________________ Bob: There are challenges associated with moving into the retirement years. Many of us have never thought that far ahead. Here is Dr. Howard Hendricks. Howard: Retirement has four major problems attached to it, the first of which is income – the financial component; the second of which is health – the physical component; the third of which is housing – your living arrangements; but the fourth and the most important is purpose, meaning, an interest in life. And the fascinating thing to me, and all of the research proves it, is we're making tremendous progress in the first three, but substantially none in the fourth, because it's the least recognized, and it's the most neglected. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, January 18th. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. Have you started yet thinking about your purpose and your plan for your retirement years? Stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition. Whenever you hear that voice, whenever you hear Howard Hendricks' voice, you've just got to get a big grin on your face, don't you? Dennis: I do, and the reason is he's one of those men who has marked my life over the past – well, I go back all the way to 1970 when I first started slipping into his class as a college student and then as a new staff member on Campus Crusade for Christ staff. I'd slip in the back of the class at Dallas Seminary … Bob: You mean you weren't enrolled or anything? You just snuck in and listened to what he was … Dennis: Shhhhhh – they'll probably want to charge me. They got my tuition later on. Bob: You enrolled, and you took – you said you majored in Hendricks. Dennis: I majored in Hendricks and got everything he taught in one year, and, folks, if you have ever had a great teacher, you know that great teachers can really mark your life, whether it's a coach, a professor, a Sunday school teacher – they really can impact you. And Dr. Howard Hendricks who was, for a number of years, the professor of Christian education at Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas, Texas – "Prof" as he was known – really is – he was the finest teacher I've ever sat under, but he was more than just a professor. He was a man who understood how to motivate men and women. Bob: Do you remember what it was the first time you heard him teach where you said, "I want to hear more?" He's a compelling speaker, he's very winsome, but there must have been something about what he was saying or the way he was expressing himself that caused you to go, "This is a man I want to hear more from. I want to learn and grow." Dennis: He had the goods. In all my years at Dallas Seminary, I took five classes from him – not a boring class. Now, I want folks to think about that – that's a lot of classes. He was on the edge; he had the message; his wife authenticated his message; and he knew how to challenge and motivate young men who sat in those classes back then; now, young ladies as well, are being motivated by him. But he became a good friend. In fact, we were just laughing the other day when I did a conference with him, and it's one of the great honors of my 34 years of ministry to have teamed up with him now on a couple of occasions for some conferences for Dallas Seminary. But we were just talking at one of those conferences – I set a record for the most number of laymen brought to his class when I was a student. I'd bring them in from the highways and the byways and the hedges. Bob: So you used to sneak in and then, once you enrolled, you started sneaking other guys in? Dennis: I brought other guys in. I want to show you how to drink water from a fire hydrant, and Dr. Hendricks is, indeed, a fire hydrant. And you and I both know, I ran across a series of messages that I'd never heard him give. It was actually a lectureship sponsored by Dallas Seminary a number of years ago on aging. And I first said, "You know what? I want our speaker team that speaks at our Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences to hear this series," and then I thought, "You know what? I want you, as a listener, to hear this." Because I don't think most of us have a very good perspective about aging and retirement and some of the issues we're going to face as we grow older. Bob: Now, listen, some of our listeners are in their 30s. Do you think this is going to apply to them? Dennis: Oh, absolutely. You know, in fact, if you go to the book of Ecclesiastes, I think it's chapter 12, the author says, "Remember God in the days of your youth," and then he goes on to describe old age. It's kind of like, now wait a second, you're talking about old age, but why do you exhort us to remember God when we're young? Well, I think the answer is your understanding of walking with God today as you're young will determine who you become when you're an elderly man, an elderly woman. And I'm kind of on a little bit of a crusade and a soapbox about wiping out crotchety, gripey, complaining old men and bitter old ladies. You know, I think we've got enough of them. I think if anybody ought to have a smile on their face, it ought to be those of us who grow old with Jesus Christ. Bob: Well, this week, we're going to hear one of the three messages that Dr. Hendricks shared with the FamilyLife Weekend to Remember conference speaker team on the subject of aging, and he was really talking about retirement, which he says is not a biblical concept in the way that most people think about retirement. Let's listen together. Here is Dr. Howard Hendricks. [audio clip] Howard: I want to talk on rethinking retirement – one of the greatest transitions in human experience. Norman Cousins said it – "Retirement supposed to be a chance to join the winners' circle, has turned out more dangerous than automobiles and LSD. It is the chance to do everything that leads to nothing. It is the gleaming brass ring that unhorses the rider. For many people, retirement is an assignment to no man's land, grossly ill-fitted for Christian culture. We are producing men and women, a society of unemployed people without a mission, the equivalent of a death sentence." It is proven by statistics – we now know that the average person dies within seven years after retirement and increasingly that figure is being changed because it is not uncommon for people to die two years after retirement, and the reason is clear. There are two lines in every person's life. There is a lifeline, and there is a purpose line, and the moment the purpose line evaporates, it is just a question of time before the lifeline goes as well. Bear in mind that retirement is a recent social phenomenon – the arbitrary age of 65 was set in 1889 by German Chancellor Bismarck, but what has always fascinated me is at that time in history the life expectancy was 55. So the bulk of the people for whom it was designed never enjoyed the benefits. And increasing it, as the United States has done, is just as ridiculous. Every now and then I hear someone say retirement is not a biblical concept, and it's quite transparent to anyone who knows the Scriptures that it is not the pattern for a born-again, eternally headed individual. But it's only partially true. We do have one reference to retirement in the Scripture, and it's found in Numbers 8, verses 25 and 26, where we are informed that the Levites were to retire at age 50; the reason being the task was so arduous, so strenuous that men in the intelligence which God alone provided, said you need to give up the physical ministry of the priesthood. But what is often overlooked is that He gave them an option. He said, "I want you to spend the rest of your life mentoring younger priests." Now, you may retire from a job. You may not have the option. But you never retire from life; you never retire from a ministry. Stepping into retirement is stepping into entirely different universe with a distinctive lifestyle all of its own. And I am convinced that this particular transition is, to the believer, one of the highest measurements of your spiritual maturity. So today I want to move into two areas. First of all, examine retirement negatively – what it is not; and then, positively, what it is. Let's begin with the power of negative thinking, with apologies to Norman Vincent Peale. I find Peale appalling and Paul appealing. The more I am exposed to the Christian community, the more I am convinced that some of the sloppiest thinking in all of time totally infects Christians who move into retirement. So let me give you seven things retirement is not. First of all, it is not a reward. Your reward comes in heaven not on earth. But many people think it's a reward for good behavior, and the result is they spend their years sliding for home, reaching for the bench at the very time they ought to be tearing the place apart for Jesus Christ. Secondly, it's not a formula. There is no one-size-fits-all retirement available. It's a process, but it's a process that is highly individual. There is no contract that spells out the details and the conditions. There is no blueprint showing you the way. Third, retirement is not a retreat. As a matter of fact, it is exactly the opposite – it is intentional advance, but the key is it involves a gradual adjustment. Number four, it is not, not busy work – something to give you something to do. It's a balance between leisure and work. Isn't it amazing how often we suffer from the peril of the pendulum? We swing to one side or the other. Throughout our life, we constantly face the danger of worshipping work as an idol, but now we worship leisure as an idol. And is it any wonder that John finishes an epistle by saying, "Keep yourself from idols." Number five, it is not self-centered; it's not socially pigging out getting lost in an entertainment glut. Retirement is meant to be more than for my benefit, and I think that's why an increasing number, even of secular people, are retiring from retirement. The one positive thing about the baby boom is they live long enough and watched enough older people waste the latter years of their life that they are refusing to go that route. They are asking for more time for employment where at least it gives them worthwhile to do. Six, retirement is not guaranteed. There is no guarantee that those latter years of your life will be successful. They are the bonus years, but they all depend upon two things – God's part and your part. No question that God will come through with His part. The question is, will you and I come through with our part and ultimately that depends on how well prepared you are. And, seventh and last, retirement is not death – we have 100-percent probability on that. Retirement has four major problems attached to it. The first of which is income – the financial component; the second of which is health – the physical component; the third of which is housing, your living arrangements; but the fourth and the most important is purpose, meaning – and interest in life. And the fascinating thing to me, and all the research proves it, is we're making tremendous progress in the first three but substantially none in the fourth, because it's the least recognized, and it's the most neglected. [end audio clip] Bob: That's Dr. Howard Hendricks talking about some of the challenges that come with aging, specifically the issue of retirement. It sounds like he could write "The Purpose-Driven Retirement," huh? I think there's a hit book there for him. Dennis: I think there is. You know, what he's challenging us to do is to not think about our retirement in a worldly way, but to think about it in a spiritual, in a biblical way. And our listeners are going to hear a series later on this spring, as Barbara and I talk about moving from the empty nest into what we are calling "prime time," and I think retirement needs to be prime time. We need to have that purpose that Dr. Hendricks was talking about. We need to have realigned our lives in light of the mission God has for us, and we need to get on with life. We need to be about His work on this planet, because the person who has unplugged from their vocation has some additional time, theoretically, to be able to invest in some eternal pursuits that he may have never had in his or her life before. And I think knowing your purpose, knowing your mission, knowing what your life is all about, is very important, and I'd like to submit to you that Homebuilders, a small group Bible study, ought to be a very attractive ministry for a lot of couples who are moving into this phase of life, into prime time, and they are needing to sink their teeth into something purposeful – something that's going to make a difference for future generations. Homebuilders is a small-group Bible study that I think can be used in the lives of young couples who are starting out their marriages, their families, and who are going through their own seasonal changes in their family who need help from an older generation. Bob: And you're thinking that young couples would want to hear what a retired couple has to say about marriage? Dennis: Absolutely. I'm younger than some folks who are in this phase right now who are speaking truth and speaking vision and modeling certain realities to me, as a man. I think all of us ought to have others who are a lap or two ahead of us in the race of life, who can guide us and direct us and make sure we don't waste any of our lives. Bob: Retirement is not a move from productivity and work and meaning to leisure and enjoyment and recreation. It's a move from one set of priorities to a new set of spiritual priorities, a new set of spiritual goals that you now have some free time for that you didn't have when you had to punch the clock every day. Dennis: That's right, and that's why I'd suggest Homebuilders, which is very easy to lead, and I think most folks who are in this phase of life, the prime times of their lives, have the place – they've got a living room that's empty. There's not any children running around, very few interruptions and, frankly, a lot of couples need to get away from their children for an evening occasionally and hear the biblical blueprints for building a marriage or a family. Bob: Well, we've got the information, as you would imagine, about Homebuilders on our website at FamilyLife.com. You can get more information about how easy it is to start one of these groups. Get some other couples to join with you and experience the fun but also the purpose and the meaning that's wrapped up in being in a Homebuilders group. Go to FamilyLife.com, or if you want to call 1-800-FLTODAY, someone on our team can give you more information about Homebuilders and how you can get involved in that growing movement of small groups all across the country. We also have Dr. Hendricks' message as part of a three-message series on either cassette or CD. You can call 1-800-FLTODAY to request that series. That's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY. Dennis: Order two copies of this three-CD series – one for yourself and one for your parents – maybe three copies – one for your in-laws. I just think there's a lot of sloppy thinking when it comes to retirement and what ought to be the prime time of our lives and, frankly, here is a man who is in his 80s – very vigorous, very alive in spite of battling cancer, who is showing us how to finish strong. Bob: Well, again, go to our website at FamilyLife.com or call 1-800-FLTODAY for more information on the series of tapes or CDs from Dr. Howard Hendricks. And then let me encourage you to also get a copy of John Piper's book, "Don't Waste Your Life." A lot of people think that's a book for young people who are just starting out, and I remember Dr. Piper begins the book by talking about a retired couple that moved to Florida and collected seashells. Do you remember that story? Dennis: I do. Bob: His whole premise is you can waste your life no matter what age you are, and you can also have a meaning and purpose for your life at any stage, at any age. We have copies of that book in our FamilyLife Resource Center as well. Again, our website is FamilyLife.com. If you want to call, the toll-free number is 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY. Let me say a quick word of thanks to the many folks who have joined with us here at FamilyLife as Legacy Partners. These are the folks who, on a monthly basis, help provide the financial support for our ministry. You know, in December we had a lot of folks who wrote to us and who made year-end contributions, and we appreciate all of you who did that, but there's also that group who keeps in mind that we have bills come due in January, and these are the folks who, each month, send a donation of $25 or $30, $50, $100 a month to help support the ongoing ministry of FamilyLife Today. Dennis: And I'd like to encourage you, if you've been ministered to by the ministry of FamilyLife, would you stand with Bob and me here on FamilyLife Today? Our Legacy Partners are real difference-makers. They keep us going. Bob: You can find out more about becoming a Legacy Partner, again, on our website at FamilyLife.com or just give us a call at 1-800-FLTODAY and say, "Tell me more about this Legacy Partner thing," and someone on our team would be happy to help you understand how you can join the growing team of folks who help make FamilyLife Today possible. Well, tomorrow we're going to hear part two of Dr. Hendricks' message on retirement, and I hope you can tune in. I hope you can call somebody who may be retired or retiring and invite them to tune in for part two of this message as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. ________________________________________________________________ We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
Christian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 1) - Bishop Aaron BlakeChristian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 2) - Diana PrykhodkoChristian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 3) - Bishop W.C. MartinFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. From Spiritual Scars to a Forever Family Guest: Diana Prykhodko From the series: From Spiritual Scars to a Forever Family (Day 1 of 1) Bob: For Diana Prykhodko, trying to figure out how to navigate life started earlier than it does for most of us—much, much earlier. Diana: I was actually nine years old when I decided I needed to run away from my birth mom, because her abuse had escalated a particular night from bad to worse. She was very drunk one night, and she woke me up. She was really angry. She woke me up and said, “I need you to get up!” She stormed into the kitchen, and she threw the pot of hot water all over me. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, September 1st. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll hear today how Diana Prykhodko became a trophy of God's amazing grace. Stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. 1:00 We're going to leave our studio today and take you with us to an event where Dennis Rainey was recently—at the Christian Alliance for Orphans Summit—that was held earlier this year in Nashville, Tennessee. Dennis had a chance to sit down with Diana Prykhodko and hear an amazing story of God's love and care for orphans. [Recorded Interview] Dennis: We're going near the orphan. I thought of Job, Chapter 29, verse 12. Job gives his defense and talks about what he had done with his life—he said, “I delivered the poor who cried for help and the fatherless who had none to help him.” We have a guest with us on FamilyLife Today who knows about people who have been obedient to what Job did. Diana Prykhodko joins us on FamilyLife Today. Welcome to the broadcast, Diana. Diana: Thank you very much. Dennis: Diana is—yes; you can welcome her. [Applause] 2:00 Diana is from the Ukraine. She has a great story of redemption, and I want you to take us back to your childhood. Tell us about the circumstances under which you grew up. Diana: I grew up in Kiev, Ukraine. My birth mom was a single mom. We had no home/no place that we could consistently reside at. My birth mom was an alcoholic, a prostitute, and a drug user. She didn't know how to love me from the very beginning. As my earliest memory of her, she was very abusive verbally, emotionally, and physically. She took out a lot of her anger on me throughout my childhood. Dennis: What do you remember most about those years growing up? Diana: What I remember most was just the turmoil— 3:00 —the constant fear of her abandoning me, the constant fear of not knowing where we would sleep the next day / if she would find some guy for us to spend the night at his apartment and not knowing what that person would be like—just the ups and downs of an unstable home environment and the ups and downs of her anger. And when she would drink, she was very abusive; but when she was sober, she was a totally different person. It was difficult for me to gauge and understand when she would be in a good mood or a bad mood. Dennis: She ultimately had what would be the equivalent of a nervous breakdown— Diana: That's right. Dennis: —and went to a mental hospital. Diana: That's correct. Dennis: Then, came back. You stayed with friends while she was gone. There was no other person to stay with. Diana: That's right. Dennis: What was it like when she came back? Diana: Life was really chaotic. Her anger escalated. Things just went from bad to worse. 4:00 She was not protecting me / she was hurting me. She was drinking. She was trying to go to grocery stores and different places. She would hold my hand; and then, she'd walk away. I would be looking for her. Dennis: You ultimately fled. Diana: I did. Dennis: You were how old when you ran away? Diana: I was actually nine years old when I decided I needed to run away from my birth mom because of her abuse. Her abuse had escalated a particular night from bad to worse. She was very drunk one night. She woke me up and she said: “I need you to get up! I want you to make me some borscht,”—which is a Ukrainian soup. We were poor. We didn't have anything. I said, “Mom, I don't really know how to cook; but I don't see any potatoes. I do not have the ingredients to make this food.” Her anger just escalated so bad that she stormed into the kitchen, and she threw the pot of hot water all over me. 5:00 She ended up putting my face, with her whole weight bearing my face down on the burner on the stove. I tried to push her off of me, but her weight was more than I could bear. She ended up doing horrific things to me the rest of the night. I ran away from her after that episode because I knew that I could die with her— Dennis: Yes. Diana: —or I could try on the streets, and I could try my luck and make my life better without her around. Dennis: The streets for a nine year old—a nine year old girl. I mean, come on? That had to be dangerous; huh? Diana: It was very dangerous. I was on the streets for about a year. I found some friends. We ended up calling ourselves “The gang.” We ended up filling our—it was our little circle, and we felt protected. We kind of took care of each other. 6:00 We would beg for money. There were different ages. There was probably eight or ten of us, and we had a guy that was our leader. Then, we had the girls—we had the older girls / the younger girls. Our leader told the older girls needed to do the older girl things. The younger kids can just stand and beg for money. By the end of the night, we would get back together—bring in the money / bring in the food. He would decide what we would do with our resources that night. Most of the time, he opted out for buying us drugs or glue. We would sniff and get high and forget about the fact that we were hungry or cold. Dennis: [Emotion in voice] I'm a grandfather of some nine-year-old granddaughters. I'm sitting here, listening to this, and I'm going, “That's not what children are supposed to experience.” I'm sorry. Your story goes on. Even in the midst of the streets, God protected you because usually little girls, like you, would die in the streets. 7:00 There was a place and a man who ended up being good, like Job, and who rescued you. Explain who Roman was. Diana: When I was on the streets of Kiev, Roman was the man that started taking care of orphans. He started inviting us. I was very shy. I was very concerned about this first step, because I didn't know if I could trust; but I tried because I was desperate, and I had to give it one more try. So, when I went to Roman, he and his volunteers—they introduced me to Christ. They fed me. They clothed me. They took care of me, and they loved me. They didn't expect anything back from me—they just let me go. Then, the next week, I would come back. Then, the next week, I'd come back; and there would be more children. Soon, before you knew it, there was a line of us fighting to get into this apartment. Dennis: The apartment and the ministry ultimately became— 8:00 Diana: Father's House! Dennis: The Father's House— Diana: Yes. Dennis: —which is what you needed—was a father. Diana: That's right. Amen! Dennis: There was another angel sent to you from Springfield, Missouri. Diana: That's correct. During my stay at Father's House, there was a man that came from Springfield, Missouri. His name is Bob Layman. Bob Layman came on a mission's trip. He looked at the orphanage / he looked at all of us kids, and God spoke to his heart about me. At the end of his trip, he went back home. God was just doing something in his heart. Bob Layman started collecting funds and started collecting things—within his own family/ with his own little circle at his church. He took my picture, and he showed it to his family and to the local hospital—he said, “We've got to do something for her.” When he went to this hospital and tried to get donations or anything they could do to help me, at first, they just kind of turned him away. 9:00 They said: “We cannot donate. That's a very large amount.” Bob just left the picture of me on the desk of one of the doctors, and he walked out. Dennis: What was their response? Diana: When the doctor got back that day, he said, “Who is this?!” The nurses and the people said, “Oh, there was just some man that came in yesterday asking for donations; but we don't know who this child is, and we're not sure who he is. We don't have his contact information.” And that man said, “Find this man and find this child.” And God opened the door after that. They invited me to come to Springfield, Missouri, to receive medical attention because they had never seen such a severe case of a small child being severely burned. They donated all their services—the anesthesiologist, doctors, and surgeons, and nurses. Dennis: Over a million dollars' worth— Diana: Yes! Dennis: —of medical care. Diana: And they took care of me. I stayed at the Ronald McDonald House while I was recovering from 18 plastic surgeries. 10:00 Dennis: Dental work? Diana: I had dental work. It was from my neck up. I had no hair from where my birth mother burned me—they were third degree burns. They did an amazing job of making me look like a woman and feeling precious. Dennis: Well, you're beautiful. Diana: Thank you. [Applause] Dennis: Diana, this is just a side note. I was born in St. John's Hospital. Diana: Oh, wow! Dennis: Yes. So, I know that area well. While you were recovering and going through all the plastic surgeries, you stayed with some families who showed you what a family was like. Ultimately, your visa ran out. You had to go back to Ukraine. It left a longing in your heart for a family. Not long after you were back at the Father's House again, there was another visitor. Diana: There was another visitor—a very special visitor—by the name of Tara Quinn. She went to Father's House with her oldest son, Clay, on a mission's trip. 11:00 She came, and she walked through our orphanage, and walked through our Father's House. I was doing some homework in a particular room upstairs. As she walking through with the rest of the missionary team, she stopped and talked to me. I was very glad she was able to stop. I was very glad to share my life with her—I feel like God was opening my heart and opening her heart. Dennis: Something was happening in your heart. You were longing for her to become your mom. Diana: I was. Dennis: And you didn't realize it, but the same thing was happening in hers. Diana: That's right. And I remember when she had to leave that I was feeling like my heart was coming out my chest. I felt like I wanted her to be my mom so badly. I was longing for her to be that mother figure that would just love and cherish me and be there for me. When they left and they sat on the bus, I couldn't help it but run after that bus. 12:00 Dennis: Oh. Diana: And I didn't know if I would ever see her again or not, but I sure prayed I would. After she left, I kept praying and asking Roman if there was a family for me or if it was too late. I remember one day when my prayers were answered. I got a phone call, and it was Tara Quinn. I remember that phone call very vividly. She asked me if I wanted to be adopted; and my answer was, “Yes!” [Applause] Dennis: You were how old at the time? Diana: I was 15 years old. Dennis: Fifteen. Diana: Yes. Dennis: That family pulled you in—made you their own. You think it'd be happily ever after, but it wasn't. Diana: That's right. Now, that I had my family and I was able to have the home I'd always longed for— 13:00 —and I was able to create the memories I'd always wanted and have the brothers and all the drama of having a family—times weren't easy because, as I stayed in my family, I realized that I did not know how to love them back. I had a hard time accepting their love; and because of my understanding at the time, I just continued to push my family away for some reason. They loved me, they adopted me, they gave me everything; but I was not able to give them what I knew I wanted to give them. But that was because my own heart was broken. God was molding, and fixing, and putting me in this family that's just my forever family. Dennis: And you know, that's important for those of us, who've got a heart for the orphan. We need to realize that it takes time to heal a heart. You can invite someone in to be in the family, make them your own, and you feel like they're yours; but there are wounds that are unseen, and there are wounds that are seen that do take time to heal. 14:00 Ultimately, you rebelled. Diana: I did. I rebelled against my parents. I rebelled against everything they taught me. I actually ended up telling my parents, one day, that I was just ready to move out. I was grown, and I was ready to do this on my own. I moved out. I went to live with my best friend, and I thought I was going to have life by the reigns and do this thing called life. And I was wrong! Very shortly after moving out from home, finding out that I still needed the covering of my family—I needed the love, I needed the support, and I was not ready to be on my own—I found myself in desperation. I found myself needing my family. I ended up coming home—asking if I could come home— 15:00 —and my family accepted me back. They brought me back with open arms, regardless of the fact that I had said I wanted to go live by myself and “I've got this.” My family invited me back. It was just like the prodigal son. Well, a couple weeks after I'd gotten home, I found out I was pregnant. So, I rebelled against my family—just to the extreme. But my family has never given up on me. They have always loved me through this difficult time, where I broke my family's heart, and broke my mother's heart with the news of being pregnant outside of wedlock. Dennis: I'm going to ask two of the three most significant people in your life, who happened to be here today—Roman, all the way from the Ukraine, and Tara, her mom—to come up on stage and just express a little love and appreciation. 16:00 Roman/Tara, where are you? [Applause] You [Diana] stay right here. Roman, you've got quite a ministry going with orphans; but you've seen God work in one's life right here. Is there something you'd like to say to Diana? Roman: For me, it's a big blessing. We invested to your family. Now, you are hero because you serve to the children. I, like, John Baptist who prepared road to Jesus in your life. Through you, God will do more with power and strength. You can do more than me / than our generation, because you understand each orphan and homeless child. 17:00 Bless you, Diana. I love you. Thank you, God, for you. [Applause] Dennis: Tara? Tara: Yes. Dennis: It's your turn. Hold it together; okay? Tara: [Emotion in voice] Yes; yes. A couple of things—a Scripture the Lord wanted me to share, when He was doing this work in my heart / in my family's heart, was Psalm 68, verse 6—says, “He sets the solitary into families.” And Diana is our daughter / she's our forever daughter. She has a birth mother, but I'm her mother—I'm her mother, and she is my daughter. These children need us. They need us. Dennis: Yes. Tara: They do. I'm so proud of her. She told a lot today, and I didn't ask her the questions of what she would share exactly. 18:00 I'm so proud of you for being able to release the ugly with the good and to let you know that you are God's daughter—not just our daughter—and that you are fearfully and wonderfully made and that you are perfect the way that you are, Diana. I love you / your family loves you. This granddaughter's name is Alexis. She's six years old, and we adore her; and she's with us. I've been in prolife ministry for 25 years. This other family wanted to have our granddaughter aborted. Can you imagine that? Somebody said, “Do they not know this family?” I said, “Obviously not!” [Laughter] It's the God of life; and we're so glad for your life, Diana. Diana: Thank you. Tara: And you've made a difference in ours. [Applause] Diana: Thank you. Dennis: You know it's too bad Bob Layman who helped you get to Springfield, Missouri, had other plans today. 19:00 I suppose he might be listening to these broadcasts someday. Is there something you'd like to say to him by way of appreciation? Diana: I would love to say to him: “Thank you. Thank you for listening to God.” Dennis: Could I stop you for just a second? Diana: Yes. Dennis: Bob, would you come out here? Diana: Bob's here! [Applause] Bob: Do you remember that? Diana: The pillow! [Laughter] Bob: Do you remember that? Diana: Yes, I remember. Thank you. Dennis: What's the story on the pillow, Bob? Bob: So many people gave from the town I live in and from a town nearby. They brought so many things, but she was always attached to that pillow. Diana: Thank you so much! [Applause] Dennis: So, Diana, you have a chance to say it to him now. Diana: Wow! Dennis: What would you like to say? 20:00 Diana: I would like to say: “Thank you for listening to God. Thank you for being so in tune. Thank you for not giving up. Thank you for going and letting God use you. Thank you for just—I know that, maybe, at times, you felt like: ‘How can I make a difference? I'm just one person.' But you're just one person that God had to use. You were just that one person that God needed; and because of you and God's using you, I am here. I was waiting for you.” Bob: I'm honored. Diana: Thank you. Bob: You're a sweet young lady. Diana: Thank you. Dennis: You're a hero for stepping out in faith and engaging a little girl—and so are you and you. We started this by talking about seeds—planting seeds. One of the great lies, I believe, the devil of hell says to people is “You can't make a difference.” 21:00 You can—you can make a difference. May I conclude our time by giving thanks? Lord, God, You are the Great Redeemer. Thank You for chasing us down, and redeeming us, and adopting us into Your family, for still loving us, still pursuing us, still coming after us. And thank You for this magnificent story of perseverance, redeeming love, and of restoration of life. We give You the honor and the glory. In Jesus Christ's name; Amen. Audience: Amen. Dennis: Would you like to express your appreciation to these? [Applause] [Studio] Bob: Well, we've been listening to an amazing story today—a story that was captured at the Christian Alliance for Orphans Summit that took place in Nashville earlier this year. If you or anyone in your church has a burden for the plight of the orphan, adoption, foster care, let me encourage you to consider attending the Christian Alliance for Orphans Summit next May. 22:00 It's going to be May 4th and 5th. It'll be at Brentwood Baptist Church, just outside Nashville, Tennessee. There is more information available, and you'll find it when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the link for the Christian Alliance for Orphans. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com to find out more about the Christian Alliance for Orphans Summit next spring. We want to take a minute and wish a “Happy anniversary!” today, to Jason and Violetta Perry. I think it s Víoletta—I don't if it's Víoletta or Vióletta—but the Perrys are celebrating ten years together as husband and wife today. They live in Fairfield, California—listen to FamilyLife Today on KFIA. They've been to the Weekend to Remember® a number of times. We just want to say, “Happy Anniversary!” We think anniversaries matter and ought to be celebrated. We just recently celebrated our 40th anniversary, here at FamilyLife— 23:00 —had a great couple of days with friends and supporters, from all across the country, who came in for our two-day celebration. And it was good to pause and just reflect on what God has done over the last four decades in the ministry of FamilyLife. And I hope the Perrys will take some time today and just reflected on how God has been at work in their marriage over the last ten years. We want to say, “Thank you,” to those of you who have made our last 40 years possible—those of you who support this ministry and who also believe that anniversaries matter and make a difference. Thanks for your financial support of this ministry. And if you're able to make a contribution today, we would love to send you, as a thank-you gift, our 2017 FamilyLife calendar. I know you're thinking, “It's just September,” but the calendar actually starts in October of 2016. So, you can get it now and put it to good use before the New Year is here. The calendar is our thank-you gift when you go online to donate or when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY and make a donation. 24:00 Or you can mail your donation and request the calendar. Write to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223. Now, tomorrow, we want to talk about the start of the NFL season and talk about what's going on behind the scenes to help provide spiritual care for the players and the coaches. We'll talk about the NFL chaplaincy program tomorrow. Hope you can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
Wisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 1) - John WoodenWisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 2) - John WoodenWisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 3) - John WoodenFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Growing Up With WoodenDay 1 of 3 Guest: John Wooden From the series: True Success: A Personal Visit with John Wooden Bob: It was the 1920s in rural Indiana. The Depression had not yet rocked America. John Wooden was a young boy growing up on a farm, a high school student who loved basketball but who was about to meet the real love of his life. John: I noticed this one little gal, and I didn't know, but she had noticed me, too, but I didn't know that. Somehow, on the first day of classes my freshman year, we happened to be in the same class, and I knew right then, and we knew we were going to be married by the time I got out of high school, and August 8th it would have been 70 years since last August 8th, we would have been married. Bob: Today you'll hear the first part of a conversation with a man who grew up to be one of the greatest coaches of all time as we talk about his faith, his family, and basketball. Stay tuned as we talk with Coach John Wooden on FamilyLife Today. And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition. I can't help but smile as I listen to that excerpt from our interview with Coach John Wooden. Of course, a lot of people are smiling right about now because this is the time of the year when March madness really takes over. There is a lot of basketball ahead for us. Dennis: Semis are this weekend, Final Four on Monday. Bob: It's got to bring back lots of memories for you from your college days, doesn't it? Dennis: Well, high school. You know, going back to high school, Bob, those were my glory days. My college days, I had several splinters. Bob: Sitting on the bench, huh? Dennis: I got the 15th uniform out of 15 in college. I learned what it was like to be a substitute. Bob: But your team almost went to the Final Four, didn't it? Dennis: Well, not THE Final Four. We almost went to the Junior College National Championships in Kansas, and I'm trying to remember where in Kansas. Bob: But that's like the Final Four for Junior Colleges, right? Dennis: Oh, yeah, absolutely. In fact, I started that game – the last game of my college career, I started. Bob: You poured in what – 15, 20 points? Dennis: Now, wait a second – hold it, just one second, because they put me on an All American. This is a true story. The coach had watched me. It was the only game I started in my college career, but my coach was so impressed with me never quitting and just staying out there and being tenacious – he started me. And he put me on the quickest guy I've ever played against. Bob: Man-to-man defense. Dennis: Man-to-man defense, and did you know, when I left the game in the first half – I played about six or seven minutes – I had scored more points … Bob: … than the All American, and the reason was this: He was so fast and I was so slow, he would fake three or four times, and by the time I had taken his first fake, I was back to where he was really going. And so I would post up underneath the bucket, and the guy didn't like to play defense, and I'd post up on him and score. And so when I left the game, I had actually scored more points than him. Bob: Now, some of our listeners are wondering what are you talking about Dennis' glory days of basketball on FamilyLife Today? Dennis: Because we really don't have anything else to talk about. No, that's not true. We have a guest today – well, Bob, a dream of mine, and I sent you a note one day. I said, "Bob, you know, one of the people I would really like in all the world to interview for FamilyLife Today and for our listeners and give them a glimpse of what a great human being he is, what many have described as the greatest coach of any sport of all time – Coach John Wooden." Now, there are a number of our listeners who have no idea who John Wooden is, but a ton do. Bob: Coach Wooden coached the UCLA Bruins back in the '60s and the '70s. Dennis: Well, actually, he started coaching in 1948. That's what most people don't realize is. He didn't build that national championship dominant team in the '60s and '70s. He built it in obscurity beginning in 1948 throughout all the '50s and early '60s before he won his first national championship in 1964. Bob: And after he won his first one, then he won his second and his third and his fourth and his fifth and his sixth. Over a 12-year period he won 10 national championships. Dennis: That's right, including winning 88 games in a row before they were knocked off at the Houston Astrodome, and I remember watching this game as a young man, where Lew Alcindor was playing against Elvin Hayes, and Houston beat them 71-69, and the Astrodome had, like, 49,000 people in it. It was nationally televised. It was an event, and there are few coaches that could claim the accomplishments that – in any sport – what he has accomplished. But in basketball, he is the ultimate. Bob: Well, we're going to hear a little bit about that game and about a lot of other games as we talk with Coach Wooden over the next few days. A while back, you and I sat down with him in a studio in Los Angeles and just had a great opportunity to find out about the man who grew up to be "The Coach." Here is part 1 of our conversation with Coach John Wooden: Dennis: Tell us about life in the Wooden household when you were growing up as a young lad. John: We had a small farm, and I learned a lot, I think, of things that helped me later on. You had to work hard. Dad felt there was time for play but always after the chores and the studies were done. Dad would read to us every night from the Scriptures and poetry, and I think that created a love of poetry, which I've always had, liked to dabble in it a little bit. My dad was a wonderful person. I never heard him speak an ill word of anybody; never blamed anybody for anything; I never heard him use a word of profanity. I think that his reading to us of a night later caused all four sons to get through college, though he had no financial means to help and there were no athletic scholarships. All four sons graduated from college and all majored or minored in English, and all got advanced degrees, and I think Dad had a lot to do with that. Dennis: Your dad had, as you've already mentioned, a profound impact on your life. In fact, I was so looking forward to this interview with you, because I've quoted you about something that you said you carried around in your pocket. Or – it, first of all, was carried around in your father's pocket, is that right? And then you started carrying it around – it was your dad's creed – and then a poem by a pastor by the name of Henry Van Dyke. John: My father gave to me, when I graduated from high school – excuse me – from grade school, from the eighth grade, he gave me a $2 bill – one of those large $2 bills and said, "Son, as long as you keep this you'll never be broke." Then he also gave me a card, and on one side was the verse by Reverend Van Dyke that said, "Four things a man must learn to do if he would make his life more true; to think without confusion clearly; to love his fellow man sincerely; to act from honest motives purely; to trust in God and heaven securely." And on the other side was a seven-point creed, and the seven-point creed insisted, first of all, I think it was, "Be true to yourself," and I think we know if we're true to ourselves, we'll be true to others; and the second was "Help others." There is no greater joy than a person can have than do something for someone else, especially when you do it with no thought of something in return. Another one was "Make friendship a fine art." Work at it, don't take it for granted, work at making friends and making friendships flourish. And then was one, I think, stood out to me a great deal was, "Make me today your masterpiece," and I tried to teach from that, as time went by, to my players and my English students, to just try and do the best you can each day. Just make each day a masterpiece. It's the only thing over which you have control. You have no control over yesterday. That will never change. The only way you can affect tomorrow is today. And then another one was to "Drink deeply from good books, especially the Bible;" and then was "Build a shelter against a rainy day," and he wasn't thinking about a physical shelter, he was thinking about a more lasting shelter. When I think about that, I often think of when Socrates was unjustly imprisoned and was facing imminent death and the jailers who were mean people, they couldn't understand his serenity, and they said, "Why aren't you preparing for death?" And his statement was, "I've been preparing for death all my life by the life I've led," and when I think of building a shelter against a rainy day, I think that's what Dad had in mind. Then the last was – the seventh was "Give thanks for your blessings and pray for guidance every day," and I've carried that with me in one form or another since those days, yes. Bob: Those core convictions are so bedrock with you, that's a part of how your mom and dad raised you. I think some people – we hear those things in the 21st century and some people go, "That sounds kind of old-fashioned, kind of corny," but that's so ingrained into who you are and who you've been, and you would say that's been a part of what has made you successful as a coach, right? John: Well, I would hope so, but I know, too, if someone said, "I'm not what I ought to be and not what I want to be and not what I'm going to be, but I think those things have made me better than I would have been. Dennis: Your dad read the Bible every day. John: Yes, he did. Dennis: How did you see him live out his faith in Christ every day, as a father? What are the most indelible memories that you have, as a boy, watching your dad? Because, undoubtedly, for him to have the influence he had on you as a man, his character has to resonate even today in your life. John: Perhaps I wasn't realizing it at the time, but as I look back on my dad and the fact that he never spoke an ill word of anyone and just was a good person. You don't realize it so much of the time, and many of the things – one of the things he said was never try to be better than someone else. You have no control over that, and if you get too involved and engrossed and concerned – maybe these weren't his exact words, but things over which you have no control will adversely affect the things over which you have control. Now, years later, I remember that. So somewhere in the hidden recesses of the mind, they stuck there, but it was things like that. Mr. Lincoln said there is nothing stronger than gentleness, and my father was gentle man – working with animals and things. I remember reading to us nights over the Scriptures, and I can still close my eyes and hear him reading "Hiawatha." I can still hear "By the shores of Gitchigoomie, by the Shining Big Sea Water, Stood the wigwam of Nokomis," and so on, and things of that sort. Bob: You didn't have any TV, any radio, so in the evening reading was the primary form of entertainment, wasn't it? John: You're correct – by a coal oil lamp or candles. Bob: Was your dad – as you think back on his life, you've talked about this tender side of him, and yet he was still whipping you when you did the wrong thing. Was he a strict disciplinarian? John: Well, I would say yes but not in a physical point of way. I know – oh, I didn't want to get an unkind word from my dad, you know, a strong word. I don't know, you just hated to hurt him in any way. You just had that feeling about him. Dennis: As you followed your dad, you undoubtedly watched how he'd love your mother. Tell us about what you observed there and his commitment to her, as a woman and to his wife, over their years together. John: Well, I think Dad's first concern was always for Mother. He was looking out for her the best he could in every way but in a gentle way, in a gentle way. I can picture them together – not at all the romantic way that you might think, but there was just something between them that was very, very special. I don't know how to describe it. Dennis: You said of yourself in your book, "They Call Me Coach," that as you moved into your high school years, you were shy, you were reserved, especially with the opposite sex. John: Yes, I suppose, not being exposed much – no sisters – and I'm on the farm, and I suppose that's the reason, I don't know, but I was a little shy. Bob: But here you were, this star basketball player on the high school team. I mean, the girls, the cheerleaders, had to notice Johnny Wooden, didn't they? Did they call you Johnny back then or was it John? John: They called me lots of things. (laughter) You'd be surprised, the more they think it was John Bob. Bob: John Bob. Dennis: John Bob. John: And Nellie and I had been married for many years when her sister came out here to California one time, and she said, "Don't you think you and John have been married long enough that you should quit calling him John Bob?" Bob: But didn't the girls start to notice you as you were draining those jump shots on the basketball teams? Dennis: Yeah, he kind of skirted your answer there. I was watching him about that. John: Well, I'll tell you, my freshman year, I was still living on the farm. We didn't lose the farm until after my freshman year, and then we commuted from this little town of Center, and we lived about a half a mile out of that to Martinsville, and I noticed this one little gal, and I didn't know that she had noticed me, too, but I didn't know that, and that summer she brought the brother of her closest friend, who became very dear to me, to drive up. Her brother had a car, and they drove up, and I was working in the field plowing corn with a team, and they parked in the road and motioned for me to come over, and I wouldn't go over. I just kept on. Bob: Why wouldn't you go over? Here's this cute girl on the side of the road … Dennis: … and you even liked her, too. John: Oh, yeah, but I was dirty and somehow on the first day of classes, we happened to be in the same class. She said, "Why didn't you come over to see us?" I said, "Well, I was dirty and perspiring, and you would have just made fun of me." And Nellie said – I can still see her, she said, "I would never make fun of you," and I knew right then … Dennis: … there was a spark in her eyes. John: And this is the only girl I ever really went with. Bob: So by your junior year in high school, did you think, "This is the girl I'll marry?" John: I did. Bob: And you all started going together? John: We did. Bob: So you waited to marry until you got to college? John: Yes, until I graduated. I was glad to be married and graduated and got my first job, yes. Bob: Coach, that's a long courtship – from your junior year in high school until you've graduated from college and got your first job. That must have been hard. Dennis: But, Bob, the rest of the story is, if Nellie hadn't put her foot down … Bob: … he might still be dragging it on today? Dennis: Well, there is the rest of the story here, because he really had promised her that he was going to marry her upon graduation, but then the war came along. John: Yes. Well, I had an appointment to West Point, and she said it would be six more years, and "I'm not going to wait. I'm going to a convent." So I didn't go to West Point. Bob: She said she wouldn't wait on you? John: That's right. Dennis: And so what did you do? John: Well, I finished at Purdue. Dennis: So you were married then? John: We were married on August 8th. It would have been 70 years just last August 8th that we would have been married. We were married on August 8, 1932. Dennis: You were, in those days, All American three years in a row, you were named the College Player of the Year your senior year, and as I was doing this research, I was thinking – I was talking to Bob. I said, "I don't remember Coach Wooden being that tall, to be College Player of the Year. He must have been 6'3" or 6'4". On the sidelines you looked a little small around those big guys at UCLA. But you were only 5'10" in those days. John: But, you know, the teams weren't as big then, either, as they are now, too. Our center at Purdue, Stretch Murphy, was 6'8", and he was a giant. I only had the pleasure of playing with him one year. I had the displeasure of playing against him one year when I was a sophomore in high school for the Indiana State Championship, he was the center on the opposing team, and he was good. Bob: Did you just have what it takes as an athlete? Were you just a naturally gifted – something about the way God made you that you turned out to be a good basketball player? Or did you work really hard to be a good ball player? John: Well, I hope I did the latter, but He provided the former. I had natural quickness, and I couldn't do much about my height, but I could do something about my condition, and I always wanted to be in the best possible condition and hoped that would be better than others, hoped others wouldn't work as hard at it as I did do that, and I think I carried that throughout, and I think that helped. And I think it probably come from my earlier grade school days on the farm of working hard, and I like to feel that no one is going to be in better condition, then I have no control over it. I should have control over myself. Bob: Well, we've been listening to a conversation with Coach John Wooden – actually, part 1 of a conversation that we're going to hear the remainder of over the next couple of days. Dennis: What a sweet time, huh? Bob: It was a great time. Dennis: Bob, you and I just had a great time. I'd look over at you occasionally, and you'd be sitting there grinning, and I'd be grinning, and the reason is, is when we interviewed Coach, he was 91 years old. He's now at his 92nd birthday, and I'm told that he knows where 180 of his players are – his past players. He's kept in touch with them. I heard about a coach the other day whose players never go back to visit him – none of them. It's common knowledge that his players don't want to have anything to do with him, and I think about Coach Wooden and the wisdom that he passed on, and it reminds me, really, of Proverbs, chapter 4, where a father is imploring and exhorting a son to "Listen, my son, and acquire wisdom." And I'll tell you, just hanging with the Coach for the interview we did over an hour and a half, we're not going to be able to air all of it here on the broadcast over the next couple of days, but just hanging with him, you thought, "What would it have been like to have played for a coach like that?" And then it hit me, you know, that's what our children need to be expressing about us as parents. You know, we learned, we sat under the greatest mom, the greatest dad, the greatest coach, the greatest teacher the world has ever known. Yeah, they're going to be biased, but the idea is that we, as parents, we're impacting the next generation just like Coach Wooden did. Bob: That's right. You mentioned the entire interview going more than an hour and a half long. We've actually taken the complete interview and put it on two CDs, and I got some early copies of these CDs, and I'll tell you what I found – you can pass these out to lots of folks. You can pass them out to the high school coach at the high school where your kids go. Dennis: Oh, let me tell you something, I've been doing this, and I've had friends doing this – any coach of any sport – Laura's volleyball coach – I gave her a copy of this, and she grabbed hold of it like it was gold, and the reason is it is gold. Bob: It's thoughts on life from a great coach but it's also thoughts on faith and character and what really matters. You can use this as a way to begin a dialog and to open doors evangelistically with fans of the game, with coaches, with players, with friends. We have the two-CD set that features the entire – I think it's about an hour-and-45-minute-long conversation with Coach John Wooden. It's available in our FamilyLife Resource Center. You can call 1-800-FLTODAY to request as many copies as you want. Dennis: It even looks like a basketball on one side and a net on the other. Bob: 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY. You can also order online at FamilyLife.com. Ask for the two-CD set of our conversation with Coach John Wooden when you contact us, and there's a second resource we want to mention to you as well – Coach Wooden has put together a course that is designed to teach his principles of success in business, in athletics, in school. We have a videocassette where Coach lays out the Pyramid of Success that he put together, and we have the Pyramid on our website at FamilyLife.com, but we also have it on a mousepad that you can have by your computer just to review the character qualities that go into success in any endeavor. Along with the video and the mousepad, we've got a wallet card. Dennis: Not just any wallet card. Bob: No, it's a laminated … Dennis: … a laminated … Bob: … that's right, and it has some of the Coach's philosophy on it – never lie, never cheat, never steal, don't whine, don't complain, don't make excuses – pretty simple stuff but profound nonetheless. Ask for these resources when you call 1-800-FLTODAY. Again, it's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY or go online at FamilyLife.com, and you can see some of the resources there, and you can order online as well. Again, our website is FamilyLife.com. When you do get in touch with us, someone is likely to ask if you'd like to help with a donation to FamilyLife Today, and we hope when they ask, if you are able, you'll say yes and be able to add a donation to the work of this ministry. We're a nonprofit organization, and we depend on those contributions to keep doing what we're doing. So if you can't help with a donation, you can donate online at FamilyLife.com. You can call 1-800-FLTODAY or you can write a check and mail it to us at FamilyLife Today, Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas. The zip code is 72221. Once again, it's FamilyLife Today at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas, and our zip code is 72221. Well, tomorrow we're going to find out how the UCLA dynasty almost never happened and how it might have been the Minnesota dynasty if it hadn't been for a snowstorm. Dennis: Yeah, this is a great story about lost opportunity. Bob: We'll hear that tomorrow as we continue our conversation with Coach John Wooden. I hope you can be with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Robbie Neal [sp], and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
Listen to Part 1Listen to Part 2Listen to Part 3Listen to Part 4FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Out of the Depths Day 3 of 4 Guest: Ed Harrell From the Series: Survival in the South Pacific ________________________________________________________________ Bob: Sixty years ago this week, Ed Harrell was one of a few hundred men floating in the Pacific following the sinking of the USS Indianapolis. In the four days that he was afloat, Ed saw some of his fellow sailors drift away from the group to be eaten by sharks. Some who tried to swim toward an imaginary shore who never came back. For Ed, the memories are vivid. Ed: I can see it today, and I think maybe I'd like to look at it and say that the Lord reminds me, even today, of those incidents, and as He reminds me of those, then they help to strengthen my faith and my resolve to live a life for Him today. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, August 3rd. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. Where did Ed Harrell's hope come from when it appeared all reason for hope was gone? Stay with us. And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us. You know, we've heard a story this week, Dennis, about a ship under attack. And then we've heard about the ongoing horror and terror of living in the middle of the ocean, bundled up with your buddies, hooked with your lifejackets to one another as the sharks encircle you in the waters and wondering, "Does anyone even know we're out here or will we die at sea?" No food, no fresh water except for a thundercloud that comes by and gives you a little bit of a rain shower. You hear a story like this, and you wonder where does the will to survive in the midst of that come from? I think of myself and think, "When would I just lay my head back and say, "Okay, I'm ready to die. I'd rather do that than keep living like this." Dennis: Yes, in fact, there's a story that Ed Harrell, who joins us again on FamilyLife Today. Ed, welcome back to the broadcast. Ed: Thank you. Dennis: There's a story you tell, Ed, of a Marine buddy who was ready to do the very thing Bob was talking about. He was ready to quit, and you kind of – the picture I had from reading your book was you kind of grabbed him by the life jacket and looked him in the eyes, and you gave him a reason to believe. Ed: I pretty much gave him an ultimatum, really, in that he had tried to convince me that he was going to commit suicide. He'd gone into the water head first and all of that oil in his eyes and then, you know, you can imagine – you take your hand, and you try to rub that oil out, but the more you rub your eye, you're rubbing salt in, and you're kind of taking that salt that's in the water, you're grinding your eyeballs with that. And then the sun then, you know, beaming off of that water, then through the daytime. By the second day, Spooner was determined that he was going to commit suicide, and he mentioned that two or three times. Anyway, I recall that I just got ahold of Spooner, and I turned him to me, and I kind of looked him squarely in the eye, and I said, "Spooner, there's only two of we Marines out here, and whenever a sailor is gone, there's still going to be two Marines, and you're going to be one of them with me," and I kind of turned him to me, and I fashioned – hooked his lifejacket then onto mine, and I swam with him then through that night, and then – it was sometime then the third morning that he wanted me to release him, and he made a vow to me that he would fight for life as long as there was breath in him because of him being able to survive as long as he had through that night, and I released him, then, the next day. Bob: You and some 300 of your shipmates survived in the waters in the Pacific from the time that your boat was attacked just after midnight on the 30th of July in 1945 when the Indianapolis went under in about 15 minutes. You survived for a period of, what was it, four days, five days? Ed: It was four-and-a-half days, yes. Bob: And you survived that, as you've already shared with us this week, there was – was it just a single rain shower that passed over that gave you a little bit of water? Ed: Right, that's all the rain that we had the whole time I was out there, that's right. Bob: So you're in salt water, you had a few tablespoons of fresh water in a four-and-a-half day period – any food? Ed: Well, let's come to the next day. The third day, when there were 17 of us, and we had literally had a prayer meeting. I mean, nearly everybody prayed. Bob: You'd started with 80, and now you're down to 17. Ed: Right. Dennis: The sharks had picked off that many? Ed: That's right – well, sharks and – you mentioned somebody giving up – you know, I saw any number of boys that maybe at one minute you'd think, "Well, they're still alive," and just a little bit later you'd see that they just all of a sudden – seemingly, they just allowed their head to drop into the water, and they didn't have the energy to raise up, and they didn't care. I recall that third day that we had had a prayer meeting, and everyone nearly was praying, and some would ask that you would pray for them, you know, they had – some had some children back home that they had never seen, and so on, and they were desperate to make it. And, you know, "If you make it, and I don't make it, will you go by and see my family" and – "but don't tell them the gruesome things that are happening." Anyway, we'd had a prayer meeting, and we got through with a prayer meeting there on that third day, and then we came upon the swell, and we looked off to a distance, and we could see that there looked like a little makeshift of a raft that was coming into our group. And after a period of time, we yelled at them, and they back at us, and it wasn't long until they made it into our group. There were five sailors, and they had a makeshift of a raft consisting of, like, two 40-millimeter ammunition cans and three crates, like, a wooden slatted potato crate or an orange crate. And as they came into our group, I recognized that there were lifejackets that they had taken off of boys that had already expired, and they had squeezed those out the best that they could, because a life – a kapok jacket will last, maybe, 48 hours, but we've already long passed that. So when they came in our group, they said that they were swimming to the Philippines; that if we could get close enough to the Philippines that maybe someone would see us. And, at that time, we were nearly convinced that no word had gotten out, and yet 50 years later we found out that it did. But, anyway, they wanted to know if anyone wanted to join them – swim to the Philippines, pushing that little raft. Bob: That was hundreds of miles away, right? Ed: Probably 500 miles. We didn't know that. So I looked at my buddy, Spooner, and I said, "Spooner, I'm going to go. I'm going to join them," and he said, "Harrell, if you go, I'm going to go," and so here are two Marines and five sailors began to say goodbye to our 15 other sailors, and we're going to swim to the Philippines, we thought. So here we start. Dennis: Was there anything said by the guys you left? Did they say, "That's foolish to do that? Ed: They did. They thought it was foolish. They said the sharks will get you, and, well, you know, they've already gotten the bigger part of us, and there was really no – seemingly, no advantage to just stay and somewhat hope against hope and do what we can. Dennis: So you swam out past the perimeter where those sharks had been circling that group of boys? Ed: We left our group and, after an hour or two, then, swimming, actually, I recall that after we had gone a distance we could see the sun setting in the west, and we thought, "Well, we'll be able to see the moon, we'll be able to see the Southern Cross, we'll be able to see the sun now as it sets, and we can tell that we're going to the Philippines, and the Philippines are big enough that we're bound to get in close enough that someone will see us." Well, after we had gone a good distance, we came upon a swell, and I could look off into at a distance, and I saw some debris out at the starboard side out maybe a couple of hundred yards or so, and a 100 yards ahead of us, and I called it to the attention of the others. And at first we thought, "Well, it's one of our buddies out there," but then as we got closer, we could tell that it was debris of some kind, not one of ours, and so, you know, you pray for food. What's the possibility, you know, could there be food out there, and so we prayed. And I know I said, "I tell you what, if you'll keep going straight, I'm going to swim out and get that. If it's just a crate, then we'll bring it in and fasten it onto our others here, but let's hope and pray that it could be food." Well, they thought I was foolish again, because the sharks maybe would get a straggler out there, but, really, I felt a real compelling force that says, "Go for it. Go and see what it might be." And I know, as I swam and got closer and closer to that crate, I'm praying for food, I'm praying for water, anything, you know, and as I got close enough that I could see those potatoes in that crate. Kind of in desperation, I didn't pause to thank the Lord for what I'm about to eat but, in desperation, I'm making my way to those potatoes, and I reached in to get that first potato. Kind of in the agony of defeat, all that rotten potato began to squeeze through my fingers, and as I kind of squeezed that in despair then, all of a sudden, it was solid potato on the inside. You know, that was some food that I needed, some starch, and some water in that. Then I began to peel some of them, then, and fill my dungaree pockets full, and then I began to make my way back, then, to my buddies, with still a lot of potatoes in the crate. We had a feast. Oftentimes, I talk to young people, I say, you know, we had a picnic and no ants to bother us. Dennis: You had sharks, though. Ed: We had sharks, we had sharks. Dennis: You describe in your book that on more than one occasion, the sharks would be circling, and you would look up, and there would be a dorsal fin headed straight toward you. Ed: Right. I know, many times, I had a fin coming straight toward me. I knew that I was looking into eternity the next second, and yet as he got to me, he just went under, and I felt the dorsal fin as it hit me, and then him to go by. And maybe then – momentarily then – another one would come through and take a buddy next to you, and yet the Lord, you know, spared me, and, you know, you have to be so mindful of all that the Lord does for you through your life and especially on occasions like that. Bob: Did you ever lose hope? Day 4 – the fourth night you've been through, did you ever think, "We're not going to make it. We're going to die out here." Ed: Oh, I'm sure I thought that many times. I wondered how much longer can a body really endure. I lost about 27 pounds there in those four days, and, you know, how much more can you endure? Dennis: Hold it – 27 pounds. How do you lose 27 pounds in four days? Ed: I don't know. There's others that say that they lost 30 or 40 pounds. But, you know, dehydration does that to you and then, of course, you might think that we aren't swimming all the time, but basically we are swimming or fighting to be able to stay erect and to not allow the water to slosh over on us and get us strangled and cause us to drink the water. So you're fighting the situation all the time and especially in the daytime, you know, the swells and all. Bob: You're trying to stay on top of the swells, keep your head up above the water. Ed: That's right. Dennis: Ed, I listened to your ordeal, and you describe in your book how, at this point, it was Wednesday evening. You'd been in the water 66 hours. You had to be near death, and your spirit had to be, as Bob was talking about, losing hope. And yet, as you dawned on the fourth day, all this group of men that you started out with, you're down to one man, right? Ed: At the end of the fourth day, right. Dennis: How did that happen? Ed: Well, I think it would be fair if I back up just a little bit and say that the night before, when we had the raft, and there were five sailors, two Marines, as it got dark that night, we couldn't go; we couldn't see the Southern Cross, we couldn't see the moon, so along about midnight that night, I know we were just hanging onto the raft, didn't know which way to go, and then we hear voices. Now, there's times when I think there's some that heard voices, but we were actually hearing some boys, and we knew it had to be ours, and so we began to respond to them – holler out to them and they to us, and so sometime that night, then, there was a Navy lieutenant and I don't know how many as they came into our group, they kind of came in straggling one at a time, so to speak, and as they came in, I think there were maybe five boys, and Lieutenant McKissock, Charles McKissock from Texas, anyway, he convinced us that he was, likewise, swimming to the Philippines. He said if we can get close enough then maybe someone will see us. Then we tried to tell him that we were trying to go there with the raft, and at first he convinced us that the raft would be a deterrent, that it would slow us down, but we said, "Yeah, but we've got a spare tire," as we put it. We've got spare life jackets on the top. And the next thing, maybe, that happened right immediately was that there was a certain Marine that had a pocketful of Irish potatoes that began to take the potatoes out of his pocket and share those with McKissock and the others, and then I don't know what happened after that. I really don't know what happened before morning. The only thing that I know is that next morning I'm not with Spooner, not with my buddy, Spooner. I'm not with the raft; I'm not with the boys that I was with. I'm with Navy Lieutenant McKissock and one other sailor. And now my life jacket will not hold my head out of the water, and I'm having to constantly swim, trying to keep my head above the water, and sometimes in that fourth day that's one of the times that I wondered if I wasn't gone, there, that fourth day, no doubt it got still. I'm just exhausted and got still or something or the other and, all of a sudden, something hit me, and I just knew it was a shark. I fell out of the kapok jacket, fell into the water, and, in desperation, the only hope that I had, I guess, was to get that life jacket back down under me, and I was struggling to get that back down under me, knowing that at any time that a shark is going to attack me. Bu then, as I finally got back into that life jacket, I'm sitting in it. Then there was just millions on little fish then, about 8 or 10 inches long, that began to come all around me and kind of nudge against me, and the moment I saw them, I knew that they were my friends. I knew that if they were there, the sharks weren't around me, and I did try to catch a few with my hands to have one to eat, but I was not successful. Anyway, that was the closer part of the end of that fourth day before rescue finally came that afternoon. Dennis: Ed, as I've listened to you take us to one dramatic scene after another, I've stared into your face, and I've watched the emotion come and go, much like the swells in the ocean, and I'm amazed here, 60 years later, you're still very emotionally tethered to the experience that you had there. You mentioned after you had been rescued that you couldn't talk about it for a long time? Why was that? Ed: I don't know that I can answer why. I found out that I relived it each time – if I try to get into any detail or anything – I can see it today. I mean, there is no problem of seeing what all was happening, but I try to think above that and think of the positive rather than to look at it from the standpoint that hope was gone and nothing but despair. And then to see my buddies go as they were going. But I recall that after I was home two years, Dad's closest friend, which was a friend of the family, and one Sunday afternoon he insisted, I guess, somewhat, he began to question me and, out of respect, I think, for him, as a friend, and I started telling it, and I talked maybe for a couple of hours. And I know when I got through my dad broke down, and he said, "Well, he's been home for two years now, and this is the first I've really known of really what happened." But it was the best cathartic that I could have ever experienced, really, because there it kind of set in motion, not only through the years how I've wanted to give credit to the Lord for His providence and His mercy and grace to me in my life, but I wanted to tell others somewhat of the story. So for the past several years, I've been in, like, 14 different states now, telling, and just kind of reliving. Dennis: Well, you're in all 50 states right now. You're telling a lot of people the story. Psalm 139, verses 7 through 10, I think, have a special power about them because of the scene that you have set for us here. "Where can I go from Thy Spirit, or where can I flee from Thy presence? If I ascend to heaven, Thou art there. If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, Thou art there. If I take the wings of the dawn, if I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, even there Thy hand will lead me, and Thy right hand will lay hold of me." It goes on to talk about darkness overwhelming me. The thing that – or the person who leads us in the midst of the darkness, in the midst of our chaos, our challenges, our crisis that we face, He is the King of kings, the Lord of lords, the sovereign ruler of the universe who knows the number of hairs on our head, and He cares about us, and He loves us, and He loved you. He loved you and brought you through one of the most amazing stories I've ever heard. Bob: You know, I can't help but reflect again on the book that our friend, Chip Ingram, has written that looks at a number of the Psalms of David and reminds us that God is with us in the midst of any affliction, and the book is called "I Am With You Always." It's a book that we've got in our FamilyLife Resource Center, and I don't know what kind of affliction our listeners are going through, but that reminder, again, that God is with us, that He is for us, that He has not abandoned us. There are times in life when we have to be reminded of that, and Chip's book does a great job of doing that. Again, it's in our FamilyLife Resource Center along with the book that you've written, Ed, which tells the story of the sinking of the Indianapolis and of your survival – four days in the Pacific. The book is called "Out of the Depths," and we have both books in our FamilyLife Resource Center. In fact, this week when our listeners order both books together, we will send at no additional cost the two CDs that have our conversation this week with Ed Harrell and, in fact the CDs have more of the story than we've been able to include on the broadcast because of time constraints. It's something that the whole family can listen to as you travel this summer, or you can use it for family devotions. Go to our website, FamilyLife.com. When you get to the home page, down at the bottom of the screen there's a button that says "Go." You click on that button, it will take you right to page where you get more information about the resources we've been talking about. You can order online, if you'd like. Again, the website is FamilyLife.com or call 1-800-FLTODAY. We've got folks who are standing by who can help you with more information about any of these resources, or they can take your order over the phone and get the resources sent to you. Again, the toll-free number is 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY. We also want to ask you when you get in touch with us, if you're able to help with a donation this month, you need to know that FamilyLife Today is a listener-supported program, and it's donations to the ministry that keep us on the air in this city and in cities all across the country. You also need to know that we are committed to the idea that you ought to be giving to your local church as your first priority. So we hope that if you do get in contact with us to make a donation, you're not, in any way, taking money away from your local church. But as you are able to help with the financial support of this ministry in the month of August, we want to send you a thank you gift. Back, a couple of months ago, we sat down with Shaunti Feldhahn, who is the author of a book called "For Women Only." We had a great conversation with her about things women need to know about their husbands that many women just aren't aware of. Shaunti had done research on the subject, and many of you got in touch with us after those interviews and requested the CDs, and we thought during the month of August we would make those CDs available to anyone who wants to make a donation of any amount to the ministry of FamilyLife Today. You can donate online at FamilyLife.com or you can call 1-800-FLTODAY to make a donation. You'll need to request the CDs when you make your donation. If you're calling, just let our team know that you want the CDs for women, and they'll send those to you. Or you can request the CDs online. When you get to the keycode box as you're making your donation, just type in the two letters "CD," and we'll send out the interview to you. And, again, it's our way of saying thanks for your ongoing support of FamilyLife Today. We appreciate you standing with us financially. Well, tomorrow Ed Harrell is going to be back with us to finish the story. We're going to hear how you were spotted in the water, and it's a remarkable story of God's amazing providence. I hope our listeners can be with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. ________________________________________________________________ We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
You and Me Forever (Part 1) - Francis and Lisa ChanYou and Me Forever (Part 2) - Francis and Lisa ChanYou and Me Forever (Part 3) - Francis and Lisa ChanFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Marriage in Light of Eternity Guests: Francis and Lisa Chan From the series: You and Me Forever (Day 1 of 3) Bob: You've heard the statistic that the divorce rate in the church is no different than the divorce rate outside of the church? Francis Chan says he's not buying it. Francis: Yes; I mean, I really believe there has never been a divorce between two Spirit-filled believers. They are using stats of everyone who goes to church / calls themselves a Christian, which—and, that's what the Bible / that's what Jesus says all the time: “I know you say that you are a believer. You call Me, ‘Lord,' but why do you call Me, ‘Lord,' when you don't do what I say? [emphasis added]” You know, the whole book of 1 John is—it doesn't matter that you say you know Him—because you don't obey His commands, you are a liar. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, January 22nd. Our host is Dennis Rainey; I'm Bob Lepine. To make a marriage work, Francis and Lisa Chan say it takes more than two—more than you and me. We'll talk with them about that today. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Monday edition. Let me just start off today, if I can, Dennis, by reminding our listeners about the special offer we're making this week on our Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways. If our listeners would like to join us at one of the fifty-plus upcoming getaways that we've got going on in cities all across the country this spring, sign up this week and save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. The offer expires this week. So take advantage of it by going to FamilyLifeToday.com; or call if you have any questions or if you'd like to register by phone. The number is 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the Weekend to Remember is a great getaway for husbands and wives—a great opportunity for you to get some uninterrupted time, where you're focusing on one another, focusing on your marriage, and having some fun in the process. Again, you can find out more at FamilyLifeToday.com; but make sure you register this week in order to take advantage of the special 50 percent offer we're making. 2:00 The website is FamilyLifeToday.com; or call if you have any questions: 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life,” and then the word, “TODAY.” Now, I've got to be honest with you, Dennis. I have always wanted to meet one of our guests today, because I've always wanted to meet the woman who could be married to Francis Chan; you know? [Laughter] Dennis: Yes; I've wondered that as well! So, Lisa, welcome to the broadcast. [Laughter] Lisa: Thank you very much. Dennis: You've kind of wondered that, too, by now; haven't you? Lisa: Yes; what did I get myself into?—no. [Laughter] Dennis: Well, he's a good man, Francis. Lisa: Yes; he is! Dennis: Welcome back. Francis: Thank you. Dennis: We've had you on the broadcast, and we have battled— Francis: Yes. Dennis: —the soapbox in the middle of the table and the microphones as we talked about the Holy Spirit a number of years ago. Francis: That's right. Dennis: But you guys have written a fresh book called You and Me Forever. 3:00 It's subtitled, Marriage in Light of Eternity. Now, you may not know this, but our Weekend to Remember marriage getaway begins talking about the glory of God / the transcendent purpose of marriage as God intended it. Couples are learning that marriage is about more than just “you and me.” Bob: And most people think it's about them; don't they? Francis: Yes; marriage is such a small part of this bigger picture in Scripture. Bob: But be honest; you didn't have the bigger picture when you went to Lisa and proposed; did you? Francis: No, no, no; not at all. Dennis: You thought it was about you two; didn't you? Francis: Oh, yes! Absolutely. Bob: Tell us how you guys met and tell us how he popped the question, Lisa. Lisa: Well, I knew the worship pastor at the church that Francis was working at, at the time. He and I had kind of grown up at the same church—the worship pastor. So, he had me come over and sing. He, actually, is the one who started feeding both of us these lines of—for me, it was: “You've got to stop dating anyone else. Francis is the one for you.” 4:00 He was so confident! Dan, we thank you still. [Laughter] So, I came over—started going to the church a lot to play lead in their Christmas musical. Francis kind of found a way to ask me out. Francis: Yes; I asked if I could be a stage manager. I told—I was honest with the worship pastor—I go: “I don't really care about your play. I want to meet this girl.” [Laughter] Dennis: So, you paid off the guy, Dan, and told him to arrange the marriage? Francis: Oh, yes. He just gave me a little headset and said: “Hey, go. Meet her.”—you know? [Laughter] I seriously had no responsibilities except to ask her out. [Laughter] Bob: So, how did you—how long, after you asked her out, before you proposed? Dennis: No, no. I want to find out about the first date. Lisa? Lisa: Oh, the first date was great, because he planned it where it was Studio City. It was a far drive; there was a little traffic. It was during Christmas time, so we were listening to Amy Grant on the radio—[Laughter]—her Christmas tape or whatever— 5:00 —and just talking and talking. We went to dinner and just walked around these cute little shops. It was awesome! Bob: So, how long from Studio City and Amy Grant until you were standing at the altar together? [Laughter] Francis: Almost exactly a year; yes, from the first date to the time we got married. We met in December / got married the following January. Dennis: Did you know right away? Francis: Yes; pretty much—yes; after a few weeks, I was pretty convinced. Bob: And how long before you proposed? Francis: Well, we had to wait like five or six months, because it took a while to convince her parents that I was okay. [Laughter] That was the— Lisa: I was the youngest of five, so there was a little bit of having a hard time letting go. Francis: Yes; so they said, “No,” a couple of times to me. Dennis: Really?! Francis: Oh, yes. Dennis: So, you went to the dad— Francis: Oh, yes—asked for the blessing. Dennis: —and he said? Francis: “Nope.” [Laughter] I think my life—my mindset of just doing anything for the Lord / going anywhere—can be a little scary to parents. 6:00 Bob: And do you think your mom and dad were just a little worried about what this man might lead you into? Lisa: Yes; I think they were a little bit scared. You know, they didn't know him at all. So, it took a while: “Let's make sure we really know who he is; because maybe he's crazy for God, or maybe he's just crazy!” [Laughter] Dennis: So, how did you pop the question?—take us to the experience. Knowing Francis Chan, this can't be average. Francis: No; we were going to go waterskiing—back then, people still waterskied—[Laughter] with a bunch of friends. I had set up on this little island, in the middle of the lake—you know, nice little flowers and music. So she kind of knew, as we were walking up there; and it was playing our song, you know. I popped the question there. Bob: So, I want to go back to the first year of the Chan marriage. I want to go all the way back to the starting point, because you both loved God / you both were sold out to Him. 7:00 But you realized that marriage looks different from one side of the altar than it looks from the other side of the altar; right? Francis: Yes; you really do! But I will say, we were warned about so many things like: “Be careful of this. First year is going to be tough. This is going to be crazy.” I seriously felt little to none of that—it was like a dream come true—it really was—like: “Wow! I can't believe I get to be with my best friend. We never have to say goodbye.” It was a dream. Dennis: You clicked. Francis: Oh, yes. Dennis: You clicked together. Francis: Immediately. Dennis: What about you, Lisa? Lisa: Yes; I would totally agree. Although, I am having a flashback of the time he made me so mad that I threw my shoe at the closet just to get a real loud bang out of it. There were moments of just total pride, and selfishness, and silliness that first year; but we kept waiting for the shoe to drop: “When is this going to feel so awful and terrible?” Bob: And the shoe didn't drop, but it did get thrown. [Laughter] 8:00 Lisa: It did get thrown! [Laughter] Dennis: Did you throw it at him? Lisa: It was not at him. It was specifically to make a very loud noise. Bob: And what prompted the shoe throwing; do you remember? Lisa: That's what's so funny. My daughter was asking me that the other day—I said: “Honey, I can't even tell you. I cannot remember, even slightly, what it was about.” Francis: It was probably something I said. I was very sarcastic back then. [Laughter] Bob: You know, as I'm listening to you guys describe your first year, Mary Ann and I would be very similar. Our first year, we didn't hit the hiccups. We kind of enjoyed being with one another, just like you described. But I think it was probably—I don't know—maybe ten years into our marriage, when I was getting ready to prepare for a small group meeting that was going to happen at our house. Couples were coming over, and we were going to start a new study about marriage. I was doing some prep work that afternoon. I was reading through these passages and reading some of the stuff. It dawned on me that: “Oh! Marriage is supposed to be about God.” 9:00 We had said, as couple: “We want God to be at the center of our marriage. We want…” but there is a difference between having God at the center of your marriage and having marriage be about Him. Do you know what I'm saying? Francis: Yes; yes. Well, I mean, even in our marriage, we've, maybe, fought a dozen times?—then, it's only for a couple of hours, if that. Part of what prompted us to write this book was: “How come we don't fight?!” We realized, you know, it's because we haven't been focused on each other—I mean, from Day One. We were three weeks into the marriage when I felt like the Lord asked me to start a church—this is nothing we'd ever talked about—and to look at my new wife and say: “I feel like God wants me to do this. I know we never talked about it.” So, we did what we were told not to do which is: “Hey, don't get right into the ministry.” Well, we're three weeks in, going, “God wants me to start a church.” For Lisa to go: “You know what? I believe God called me to just support you in whatever way you are going to lead our family. So, if that is what you think God wants us to do, let's go.” 10:00 So, ever since the beginning, we've been thinking about others and: “How do we minister to people? How do we reach our neighborhood? How do we reach our city?” Because we've both been on this mission together, that's taken us all around the world now. It hasn't just been about, “Hey, you and me—you're not making me feel good,” / “I'm not making you feel good.” It's about, “Hey, we're here for a purpose.” As we've pursued that, it's caused us to be so in love with each other. Dennis: Lisa, what did you think when he came up with this vision; and it wasn't just a vision for him? It was also a transformational moment for you, because he was going to need you to go do something you weren't necessarily planning on. Lisa: Yes; I think—you know, it's so important for single women / young girls to watch and see that the man they are interested in or the man that they are dating is really walking with the Lord; because that gave me a lot of confidence to say: “You know what? I do trust God in you. 11:00 “I trust that He's showing you a plan / put something on your heart.” That's my role, then—I'm going to jump in; I'm going to roll my sleeves up and “Let's get to work. We need Sunday school teachers. We need to do a mid-week kids' program.” I mean, we were doing so much stuff; but it was so fun in a way, even though it was tiring, it was also just: “We love these people. Let's serve them. Let's do what God put on your heart.” I was so drawn to him, because he loved God in a way that was very different than a lot of the people I had been surrounded by in my own church setting. That is not to bad-mouth them, necessarily, but—wow!—it was like the way Francis would teach and preach, he had this fear of God and this reverence for the Word of God. In fact, before we got married, the best gift I have ever been given was this Bible that he gave to me a couple weeks before we got married. It had my married name inscribed on it; so it said “Lisa Chan” before I was Lisa Chan. And he wrote this whole letter inside of it to me: 12:00 “This is what we are going to commit our lives to. I want to see you wear this Bible out.” You know? Wow! What a gift, to have a husband with that kind of mindset; you know? Dennis: Francis, you believe that we have dumbed down marriage into this horizontal relationship of two people trying to make each other happy. What you and Lisa have written about, here, is that there is a transcendent purpose to marriage that is God-created / God-imbedded. If we miss this, we miss life. Francis: Absolutely. You know, we tend to focus on certain passages in Scripture and not others. When you look at what the Bible says about marriage—yes, Paul wrote Ephesians 5—but even that was really about Christ and the church. But Paul, who wrote that, also wrote 1 Corinthians 7 [verses 29-31], which says: “This is what I mean, brothers, the appointed time has grown very short. 13:00 “From now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning; those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing; those who buy as though they had no goods”—and he goes on—“for the present form of this world is passing away.” He's saying: “Those who have wives—just live like you do not, because there is something bigger here. There is this mission—we've got this brief time here on earth, and this is what we've got to be about.” The Bible does talk about a marriage, but the emphasis is this marriage of the Lamb and this eternal marriage that we're going to be in. I mean, if we just sat and wrote down everything Jesus said—every time we wrote down, “husband” or “wife” or “family”—just wrote down all those verses, we'd be shocked! I mean, the way He speaks about family is: “I am so far beyond that. Yes; I created marriage. Yes; I created man and woman, and I want you to live this way. But the point of that is so that the world has a picture of this beautiful marriage that's going to happen one day and this picture of this beautiful Father that we have in heaven.” 14:00 We're just that shadow / we're just that glimpse; but too often, in the church, we make it all about us. It's killing our marriages. Dennis: A marriage that's operating under the authority of Scripture and attempting to live obediently under the Lordship of Christ—living under His authority, even though they are doing it imperfectly—should show God off to a lost world. Francis: Amen. Dennis: And I think it's going to be one of our most powerful witnessing tools in the Christian community, going forward. In fact, I think in one of the chapters, Lisa, you wrote about: “What would happen if marriages got it together and divorce was rare?” Lisa: Wouldn't that be so amazing to have the statistics be: “Wow! Those who belong to Christ / those who are following Christ—their divorce rate is next to nothing”? That is what would make sense, given what we know / what we believe—that we have the power of the Holy Spirit! 15:00 It's like, you know, you think of those times when the Apostles would say, “Brothers, this ought not to be!” That's what goes through our hearts: “People—believers out there—come on! This ought not to be. We've got to rise above and recognize who we are. We are God's children, who have been given His Spirit. We can live out our lives in a very different way.” Bob: Well, the interesting thing is—the statistics we've all heard—that marriage is the same in the church as it is outside the church—well, that's true if “in the church” means you ask a guy, “Are you a Christian?'” Lisa: Yes; right. Francis: Amen. Bob: But if you ask a guy: “Do you go to church every week? Do you read your Bible? Do you pray together?” Now, all of a sudden, the marriage statistics are completely different because believers, who are walking with Christ, recognize, “It ought not be,” and they are living for something different. Francis: Yes; I mean—I really believe there has never been a divorce between two Spirit-filled believers. 16:00 Never in history has there been two Spirit-filled people—people walking in the Spirit—who have gotten divorced. It's impossible! There's only one Spirit. So, one person has to be just not walking with Him in order to leave. I completely agree with you—they're using stats of everyone who goes to church— Bob: Right. Francis: —or calls themselves a Christian—which, that's what the Bible / that's what Jesus says all the time: “I know you say that you are a believer. You call Me, ‘Lord,' but why do you call Me, ‘Lord,' when you don't do what I say?” The whole book of 1 John is—it doesn't matter that you say you know Him; because you don't obey His commands, you are a liar. Bob: Well, in fact, you say in the book that couples who say they have marriage problems need to recognize: “It's not a marriage problem. It's a God problem.” Francis: Amen. Bob: Unpack what you mean by that. Francis: Bottom line—Lisa and I both have made a commitment, individually, to God. I mean, she knows I'm not going to leave her—I can't. I mean, before the Lord, we are going to work everything out. In the same way, she has that same mindset. 17:00 We have this understanding, before the Lord, where He fills my every need, like Psalm 23 says, “The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want.” I am not like desperately needing Lisa to fill all of these holes in my life, because I'm such a needy person. The Lord is wonderful! I know the Creator of the universe! I'm going to be with Him forever! I've got everything in my possession. So, He's given me so much life—life to the full—that I just have life to give, and give, and give. I don't wake up in the morning, going, “Gosh, I need so much from Lisa.” I'm filled in the Lord, and I have life to give to her. The same is true for her. When people understand that, then they are not sucking the life out of one another and needing so much from one another; but they are getting their water from this fountain of life, which is God Himself. 18:00 Lisa: Well, and that's why it's so important, too, for those who are in a marriage, where only one of them is spiritually-minded—and they do not have a believing husband or wife—to say: “You know what? It is still very possible for you to display the gospel alone.” There is some loneliness involved in that, and that's not something we make light of; but it is still very, very possible for you to receive what you need from Christ and to love this other person and to display—to the world, to your children, to the people around you—what it means to follow Christ and to display the gospel, even on your own. Dennis: I've known a number of women and men, who have been in marriages like you are describing. I think they are among the most courageous in persevering. Lisa: Yes. Dennis: It is not easy—it is painful / it is lonely. They are not sharing the most important thing about their lives. Lisa: Yes. Dennis: I want to go back to something you just said, Francis—that I just want to put a double underline under. There are two commitments that Barbara and I have made that completely altered our lives—certainly, our marriage covenant—where we decided, “We are not going to leave one another.” 19:00 But some months after we made our marriage covenant together publicly, and became married, we experienced our first Christmas together. We did something that Bill and Vonette Bright, who are the founders of Cru®, did when they started out their marriage. We signed a contract with God—a title deed. We signed over the rights and authority of our lives to Almighty God. It wasn't like it was a permanent contract, where we couldn't renege; because every day, you've got to get up and re-up on your contract and agree. But we signed formal papers—two handwritten pieces of paper—where we gave everything we had and hoped to have to God, afresh, as Master and Lord of our lives. At that point, Francis, it's like—once you've settled the issue of ownership— Francis: Yes. Dennis: —“Who is going to be your master? Who's going to be your lord?” 20:00 Because if you are serving self—and you've got two people, in the most intimate relationship of all of human history / marriage—you've got two people, who are serving self, you know where that's headed. But if you've got two people, who are attempting to bow their necks / their wills before Almighty God and say: “God, would You show up? Would You do Your work in us and through us? Let us minister to each other, but also”—as you've said—“to the world.” That's when a couple, I think, experiences the pleasure of God. Francis: Amen. I mean, there's something about getting your eyes off yourself and onto God and on His mission that just—I mean, it's beautiful to me! It's gorgeous to me when I see my wife serving other people. I just look at her, like, “Gosh, look what she is doing!” You know, being in Africa and watching her—putting shoes on orphans; or feeding them; or counseling some lady in crisis; or walking around, knocking on doors and just asking, “Can I pray for you?” with a baby on her back— 21:00 —it is like, “Gosh; she's amazing!” Or coming home and saying: “Honey, is it okay if this person comes and lives with us? I know he just got out of prison, but…” For her to say, “Yes, yes; we trust in the Lord.” It just makes her more and more attractive to me, because I see her love for Jesus and her faith in His reward. Dennis: Francis, as you were bragging on Lisa, I just reflected on a meeting I was in yesterday, where I was bragging on Barbara. She has a heart for great theology passed on through women—wives/moms—into their families. She's using her artistic ability to create biblically-anchored resources around the holidays that families celebrate to take families back to the Christian roots and allow women—wives, moms, grandmothers—to pass on the truth of the gospel to the next generation and beyond through those traditions. 22:00 I was just bragging on her and, frankly, got kind of emotional about it—because, like you, when you were just smiling as you were talking about Lisa visiting an orphanage / when you see your wife fulfilling what God's design is for her—it can't help but make you proud because you're a team. That's what marriage is—it's a couple who are about God's purposes. Bob: You know, I'm just sitting here thinking about the fact that central to what we talk about at our Weekend to Remember marriage getaways is the whole idea of oneness in marriage. That's exactly what you're talking about here—the two of you being in alignment with one another because you're both in alignment with God and His purposes for you and for our world. That's where oneness comes from. I, again, just want to take a minute and remind our listeners about the special opportunity they have this week to sign up for an upcoming Weekend to Remember marriage getaway. This is a great opportunity for you, as a couple, to block out some time to spend a weekend together and to grow together in your understanding of God's design for marriage. 23:00 If you sign up this week, you save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. That offer expires this weekend; so take advantage of the special offer we've got by going to FamilyLifeToday.com—registering online—or call if you'd like to register by phone: 1-800-FL-TODAY. Be a part of an upcoming Weekend to Remember. We've got more than 50 of these happening in cities all across the country. So join us at one of our getaways. Again, 1-800-FL-TODAY is the number to call, or go online at FamilyLifeToday.com. Let me also encourage you to get a copy of Francis and Lisa Chan's book, You and Me Forever: Marriage in Light of Eternity. It's a book that we have in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. We're happy to send you a copy. You can visit us, online, to order at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800”-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” 24:00 Now, tomorrow, we want to talk about what happens in a marriage when you're not on the same page—when one of you thinks God's leading in one direction and the other one thinks, “No, I don't think so.” You guys had this happen, and we want to talk with you about it. Our guests, Francis and Lisa Chan, will be back with us again tomorrow. We hope you can be back with us as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. See you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife® of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
You and Me Forever (Part 1) - Francis and Lisa ChanYou and Me Forever (Part 2) - Francis and Lisa ChanYou and Me Forever (Part 3) - Francis and Lisa ChanFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Marriage for God's Glory Guests: Francis and Lisa Chan From the series: You and Me Forever (Day 2 of 3) Bob: It was after a trip to Africa that Francis Chan came back to his home in the United States and told his wife he thought God wanted their family to downsize. Lisa wasn't so sure. Lisa: I didn't want to give up my things. I didn't want to move into a smaller home. It was like this ripping that was happening. Of course, because God is so faithful—and every time, He says, “If you lose your life for My sake, you will find it,”—on the flip side is when I got to see the joy of it and, eventually, got to go to Africa with Francis. I was just brokenhearted at my own resistance and sinfulness because I wished I could have had those feelings [of joy] on the outset. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, January 23rd. Our host is Dennis Rainey; I'm Bob Lepine. 1:00 Lisa Chan says that God's Word is true when it says, “Whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” That's true, even in marriage. We'll talk more about that today with Francis and Lisa Chan. Stay with us. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition. We've been hearing, both last week and again this week, from a lot of our listeners who are getting in touch with us about the special offer that expires this week on our Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways. For those of you who are new listeners to FamilyLife Today, the Weekend to Remember is the two-and-a-half-day getaway we do for couples in cities all across the country. It's a great romantic time away together, where you learn what the Bible teaches about God's design for marriage. If you sign up for one of these getaways before the end of the week, you will save 50 percent off the regular registration fee as a FamilyLife Today listener. 2:00 We are encouraging you to get more information—go to FamilyLifeToday.com—find out when a getaway is going to be in a city near where you live and then block out that weekend, and call and register now to save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. The number to call is 1-800-FL-TODAY. You can also register online at FamilyLifeToday.com. I know some of these getaways are starting to get close to selling out, so don't hesitate. Join us at an upcoming Weekend to Remember marriage getaway, and register this week to save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. Now, I've got to be honest—I'm not sure I want to talk to the couple we have joining us today, because they just shared with us they've had like 12 fights in the past 21 years. I'm kind of like, “Bring me some couples I can relate to a little more”; you know? [Laughter] 3:00 Dennis: Well, I was thinking: “We've been married double that. We've got more than 24, though,”—[Laughter]—doubling your dozen that you've had. Francis and Lisa Chan join us on FamilyLife Today. Welcome back. Francis: Thank you. Lisa: Thank you. Dennis: They've written a book called You and Me Forever. In case there is a listener who doesn't know who this couple is—they live in the Bay Area of Northern California. They are about church planting there—also, ministering to men / I assume it's only men coming out of prison. Francis: Yes; we've been trying to start a women's home as well. So, right now, it's just the guys coming out of prison. Dennis: I want to go to something you mention in your book. You made this statement—you said, “If you could manuscript your prayers of what you've prayed about for the last month, what would they reveal about you, as a couple?” Francis: So, it's like what David says in Psalm 27, verse 4, when he says, “This one thing I ask of the Lord and that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, to gaze upon the beauty of the Lord and to inquire in His temple.” 4:00 That was his one prayer request: “God, I want You—I want You. I want to see You. I want to be with You.” So, the question is: “Give me a manuscript of your prayers for the last month. I want to hear: ‘What do you hunger for? What do you want?' You're coming before the Creator, the Sovereign One, who is in control of this whole earth; and what are you asking for?” Dennis: Yes. Bob: And most of us are asking for: “Fix this,”— Francis: Yes. Bob: —“Make life easier or better— Francis: Yes. Bob: —“for me”; right? Francis: Amen! Bob: So, if that's—I mean, is it illegitimate for us to pray— Francis: No. Bob: —“I'd like things to go better in my life”? Francis: No; you know, it's—the Lord tells us to bring what we desire before Him; but also, the things that we desire reveal a lot about us; you know? It opens our eyes to: “Wow! That's what I'm about?—is: ‘Get rid of all my problems,'”—because I don't see that in Scripture. It's more about, “God, give me the strength to make it through this—develop my character through these trials.” You know, that's what I see in Scripture. 5:00 Lisa: How much of my prayers do I pray for Francis? Do I pray for his walk with God? Do I pray that God would help in his moments of temptation? I mean, that's something that has developed in my life that softens my heart towards him—helps me to love him better. I want to be praying for him because who else is going to pray for him the way that I will? Dennis: One of the things that I try to do, when I pray over my meal at lunch—I don't do it every time—but I try to pray for my wife Barbara and her walk—that she'll see God show up in her life, and she'll respond to Him, and she will grow in her faith. Then, if I'm having lunch with another guy, pray for his wife as well. I don't think a lot of us are challenging one another with that concept, Francis—that you speak of in your book—of really making sure your prayers are about the agenda of what God's up to; because He is at work in your spouse's life, in your children, and in your extended family as well. 6:00 Francis: I just recently started running; you know? I was getting out of shape; and so, I've been running around this track at my daughter's school. Every lap, I'll pray for a different kid. So, it's nice to have seven kids and a wife. [Laughter] It's, at least, two miles a day that I'm running, which is good. As I'm praying, the prayers aren't: “Oh, help us get along better,” or “Help this,” “Help that.” It's like: “God, make my wife just this amazing warrior for you. Give her even greater love / greater capacity.” “Help my daughter, as she's in this school right now, to take a stand for you. It's about Your kingdom.” “Use them to influence other people—my kids in grade school / my kid in Little League—have him influence this team.” It's about God: “Your kingdom—Your kingdom come.” Dennis: Lisa, tell the truth. When he starts praying like that— Lisa: Does it scare me? [Laughter] Dennis: —do you get scared? Lisa: No; you know, my immediate thought was: “I'm so glad he's praying for me! I need it.” That is, honestly, my first thought. [Laughter] 7:00 Bob: I want to go back—because you said your dad said, “No,” the first two times to Francis— Lisa: They are going to feel so bad about that. [Laughter] Bob: But, as a daddy, I understand wanting to protect— Dennis: Oh, yes! Bob: —my daughter— Dennis: Absolutely! Bob: —and along comes Francis, who—as you said—they weren't sure if he was crazy about God or just crazy. And your journey together has been a journey of risk and a journey of faith; that, honestly, I can understand a daddy going, “This may be more risk than I raised my little girl for.” Do you know what I'm talking about? Lisa: Yes; and I've seen that tension in them. There have been times when I've just had to cry and be honest with them, like, “I need you to support me and say, ‘You are never going to regret surrendering to God and giving things up.'” That's hard when you have that parent's heart that immediately wants to protect. I have it, too, with all of my kids. 8:00 So, I do get it in a different way now; but how much I want to encourage parents to be that voice of courage for their kids—married or not; married 20 years / 30 years—still be that voice that says: “Honey, go for it! Don't look back. Surrender it all to God, because He's got you.” Bob: But there have to have been times when crazy Francis came to you and said, “I think the Lord is saying this,” and your immediate answer wasn't, “Yes, let's go for that,”— where you had to kind of go: Lisa: Oh, yes. Bob: —“Really? There is a cost here.” Lisa: One of the hardest—the first most difficult was when he had come back from Africa. I had not been with him on that trip. God completely wrecked him. He wanted to sell our home and cut our house size from 2,000 square foot to 1,000 square foot—it was, literally, right in half. 9:00 We had two kids. We had a couple of people living with us—we always have—but he wanted to move. He was like: “I can't do this anymore. I need to give something up in order to love these kids that I saw.” It was love-motivated, which was so awesome; but I was so honest with him—I said, “I wasn't with you. I don't feel love in my heart; I feel more like, this is going to stink!” [Laughter] No; I mean, I'm just being honest. I didn't want to give up my things. I didn't want to move into a smaller home. It was like this ripping that was happening. Of course, because God is so faithful—and every time He says, “If you lose your life for My sake, you will find it,”—on the flip side is when I got to see the joy of it and eventually got to go to Africa with Francis. I was just brokenhearted at my own resistance and sinfulness because I wished I could have had those feelings [of joy] on the outset. Bob: Your immediate reaction was, “I don't know.” 10:00 Lisa: It was: “I don't want to, but I will do what is in your heart. I will not stand in the way of what you want to do.” And so— Bob: And were you still—on the day you were moving into a 1,000 square-foot house, were you going: “I don't want to do this,” or had—by that time, had you started to go, “Okay; I guess this is going to be okay,” or what? Dennis: Or did you negotiate a 1,500 square-foot home? [Laughter] Lisa: No, it was 1,000; and it was hard. I think the initial reaction was the hardest. Then, it was, “Swallow it.” Then, it was, “This is going to be fine.” Then, it was: “Why am I so stupid? This has been the best thing.” It was one of our favorite homes. We had the best neighbors that we reached out to and just loved. It was the tiniest, little thing. We had six of us, eventually, there. We had two more kids there; and then, we had two girls living with us. We moved up to eight living in that little, tiny house. 11:00 Dennis: Francis, if I've learned anything in the years I've been married, in order for our wives to have that kind of response, you have to have loved her with a love that results in respect and the ability to trust—when her heart isn't quite yet in it—but she knows she's got to go with you because she's committed to you and she's committed to the mission. Talk about your love for Lisa and how you have built that kind of trust. Francis: I think, not to over-spiritualize it, but I do really believe that one of the things I've been able to help Lisa with is to trust in the Lord. So, when it came to a bigger decision—like the house—she had seen God's faithfulness in the past, and I think that's where the trust was. She was trusting that I was following the Lord and that the Lord was going to bless our steps, as long as we just keep going, and even sacrificing/denying ourselves during those times we didn't feel like it. 12:00 At the same time, we had been around the world. They would find us, even right now, having this conversation—about a 1,000 square-foot home, with toilets and air-conditioning—just absolutely laughable! Dennis: —that that's a sacrifice. Francis: Exactly!—because this is their dream house. So, I don't want to sit here and go, “Oh, you guys, we really suffered.” It's like: “Man, that's luxury. We're living in America.” Lisa: That's why it wasn't until after I had been with him into some of those areas of extreme poverty that I did feel so stupid for complaining and thinking that I was sacrificing so much. I said, “Oh, I would have sacrificed more.” I said, “We could live in a tent,”—although that would probably be really hard—[Laughter]—but— Dennis: You kind of looked at him— Bob: “Don't plant any ideas!” [Laughter] Dennis: Well, that's what she was thinking—she was going: “Oh, no! We're going to downsize from 1,000 square feet.” Francis: And that's crossed my mind—that's happened—the tent. Laughter] Dennis: Francis, let's talk about how you are the spiritual lover and leader of Lisa and your family. 13:00 You've got a lot going on in your life out there: “How do you love Lisa? How do you provide the kind of mandate that Ephesians 5 talks about—‘Husbands, love you wives as Christ loved the church'?” Francis: It's something the Lord put in me. It's weird because I didn't really have that, growing up; and yet, it's so natural to me. It's not like I have to force myself to love my kids, and to enjoy them, or force myself to spend time with Lisa. I am gone a lot, but all the kids know I want to be at home with them. A lot of times, I will take them with me on some of my speaking engagements—I'll take one kid at a time. So, I do serve kids—you know, my kids— through relationship, through just laughing with them, and teaching them, and disciplining them, and getting the time with them. A lot of times, we're just in ministry together. 14:00 Dennis: Lisa, we'll let you answer the question too: “How does he love you?” Lisa: Well,— Dennis: And again— Lisa: —practically speaking,— Dennis: —not in an idealistic way—yes; in a practical way. Lisa: Yes; one of the nicest things—that every mother will appreciate—is those nights, when he'll see that I have been in the home / I have had the little people all over me—and the big ones, sometimes, that have the emotional needs that go far beyond your little ones—and he'll just say: “Honey, I got this. You just go to Target—[Laughter]—just walk around Target, aimlessly, with a Diet Coke in your hand.” [Laughter] That is such a blessing. He knows when I need a little moment to myself; and he knows those times when he'll say: “Hey, we've got our high schoolers still at home. They are going to watch the little ones. You and I are going to go grab dessert really quick.” That is how he shows love—it is to sneak a little time away / grab some dessert or just to let me go have a moment to myself. 15:00 Bob: As I hear you guys describe your marriage and how this works out for you, I hear a strong sense of mutuality; but I also hear there's leadership, and there's responding to leadership. You know, there is tension, even among Christians today, about: “What's this supposed to look like? How are we supposed to do this? Is the man supposed to lead? Is the wife supposed to submit?” Unpack how you think that's supposed to work and why we are confused about it today. Francis: I think we're confused about it because we've rarely seen a good picture of it. We live in a culture that's very anti-authority—because when have you found godly serving authority; okay? Yet, that's a picture of God. It gets to the point where we even question God's authority, like, “He has no right to give me these rules.” We forget that, no, those rules were to protect you / they were to give you life. 16:00 He is a wonderful authority! I mean, that's the whole rebellion of Adam and Eve. It's like: “Well, did He really say? That sure does look good.” It's like: “No! You're going to ruin everything!” Authority can be beautiful. Jesus, who knew who He was—He understood He was the Lord—yet, He goes and He washes the disciples' feet—He dies on the cross for them. That's our picture of authority. That's what the head of the home is supposed to do. If you had that, then, I believe you would see a lot more women, going: “Okay; I see that. I see how it can be good to be under their authority.” So, I see, in Scripture—it is pretty clear to me that the man is supposed to be the head of the home, but he's supposed to lead in a way that's like a servant that is Christ-like. Dennis: When a man serves, denies himself, loves, leads, and really takes care of his wife, it makes her responsibility and her response reasonable. 17:00 And Lisa, in the book, I so enjoy what you write on Page 88 because you talk about five reasons why—what has become a very nasty word in our culture / a politically-incorrect word—the word, “submission,”—but it's a biblical term. You talk about why we should do that. I want you to share that with our listeners, because there is probably a listener or two who is losing heart in well-doing and needs to be reminded why it's so important. Lisa: You know, it was hard when we were writing the book; because we could write a whole giant book about submission and authority—right?—and leadership, but we didn't want that to be the focus of the book. But it is important to understand, for a woman—especially because so many women will say: “My husband doesn't deserve to be submitted to. He is not a good leader. He is not following the Lord.” We're not submitting to our husband's perfection and the fact that they deserve it. We're submitting to the fact that God has given them that position of authority. We're submitting to a God-given position and not perfection. 18:00 There were times, even in the beginning, when Francis was not kind and nice about his authority and leadership; but I am still responsible, before God, to say: “You know what? He has given him this position.” You can't get around it through Scripture. It's not one place that says, “Wives, submit to your husbands,”—it's a few times—look it up in your concordance. We can't be so afraid of obeying the Lord—there is freedom in it. The second thing is—only our submission to God should be absolute. We don't submit to our husbands if they ask us to sin, obviously. There is a limit, in that sense. We are all under the umbrella of God's authority. So, if our husband steps outside of that, then we are not to join him in that. Bob: You don't follow him—you don't follow him there. Lisa: Right. I think one of the most important things we have to realize is that we find ourselves thinking that we're fighting against our husbands; but ultimately, we're fighting against God. 19:00 That is not something we want to do—the Scripture says that God opposes the proud, but He gives grace to the humble. It takes humility to follow someone's lead; but, you know, you look back at the very beginning—God said: “It's not good for the man to be alone. I am going to create a helpmate for him.” Why can't we embrace the beauty of that and say: “Wow! I want to give my husband the benefit of my wisdom / my insight”? Then, after I've laid that all down—and I've shown him / I've shared my thoughts and my heart—to allow him to lead / to make the ultimate decision, knowing that I've poured my heart out to him and helped him understand my perspective. It may not always match up. We may not always agree, but give your husband that benefit. He needs you. You are his helpmate. Dennis: Your belief in your husband is empowering and affirming to his leadership. I think—I'm looking at Francis, who is nodding his head—she has made you a better leader— Francis: Oh, yes! Dennis:—because she is a strong woman. 20:00 Francis: Absolutely! If you knew me before I met her, I am sure you would say: “Wow! That was a major transformation. There's no way he could pull off what he's doing without her.” Bob: Knowing that she believes in you / respects you—that she'll follow you— Francis: Yes. Bob: —that puts wind in your sails. Francis: You see—because my parents were dead by the time I was in junior high—so I've never had support / I never had anyone believing in me. I didn't have a cheerleader—anyone in my corner. Yet, the Lord was enough. The Lord was absolutely enough—so, yes—amen and amen. But He created us in such a way that—now, when I finally had someone who believed in me—like another human being, who I knew was going to be by my side and support me, even when everyone else thought I was crazy—yet, she believed / she believed in me. I can't—I can't say enough. 21:00 Lisa: You know, one of the things I have to say is that the thought of coming before the Lord, at the end of my life, and having Him say: “Why did you prevent your husband from doing all these things I had planned for him?”—that is part of what scares me. I think we have to realize that, as women, we want to be life-givers and we want to put wind in their sails, as you put it. We don't want to stand in the way and limit them and limit what God is going to do through them. That is what should scare us. Francis: This is what the book was about—eternity. You know, we have this wonderful family—full of laughter / everything else—but that's going to be over in a second. Just to put it bluntly—we're going to die any moment. Lisa or I will stand before God, Himself— Dennis: Right. Francis: —and what are we going to care about? So, if I love her, then, it's not just about this time here. I want to prepare her for that moment when she faces Him. In the same way—and yes, we are saved by grace— 22:00 —but I want her to know: “I accomplished the work You gave me to do, Father, while I was on that earth—during that brief, little vapor of a time. I did what You wanted me to do.” I think that's true love—is when you are looking at someone—and not just thinking of the here and now, where I benefit. I think about the forever and ever and ever—“How are you going… / What's that existence going to be like?”—it's based upon how we live now. Bob: Is that really your hand print on the cover? Francis: No; my hand wouldn't have fit on the book. [Laughter] Bob: I was just looking at your hand, going,— Francis: I know! Bob: —“You've got huge hands.” Francis: I know; it's freaky/scary. [Laughter] Bob: We do have copies of your book, You and Me Forever, in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can order a copy, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY—You and Me Forever: Marriage in Light of Eternity by Francis and Lisa Chan. Again, find it online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-“F”' as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” 23:00 And don't forget—if you have any interest in—and I hope you do—in coming to one of our Weekend to Remember marriage getaways this spring / they're going to be in over 50 cities across the country—sign up this week and you save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. It's a special offer we're making for FamilyLife Today listeners that expires this weekend. If you have any questions about the getaway, call us or go online at FamilyLifeToday.com. And can I just say?—for you to have a couple of days—where the two of you get away, and recalibrate, and refocus, and breathe a little fresh air into your marriage—that would be good for anybody. If it's been a while since you've done that, you ought to go ahead and make plans now to be at one of the getaways and save a little money in the process; okay? Sign up at FamilyLifeToday.com or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to get registered for an upcoming Weekend to Remember marriage getaway. If you want to buy a gift card for somebody to attend a getaway, those are available at 50 percent off the regular registration fee as well. 24:00 Get the details at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800- FL-TODAY and join us at an upcoming Weekend to Remember marriage getaway. Now, tomorrow, we want to talk about how marriage and ministry can coexist—how you can be in alignment, as husband and wife, in being involved in kingdom work. Our guests, Francis and Lisa Chan, will be back with us tomorrow. I hope you can be here as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife® of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright© 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
You and Me Forever (Part 1) - Francis and Lisa ChanYou and Me Forever (Part 2) - Francis and Lisa ChanYou and Me Forever (Part 3) - Francis and Lisa ChanFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Don't Waste Your Marriage Guests: Francis and Lisa Chan From the series: You and Me Forever (Day 3 of 3) Bob: Francis and Lisa Chan had not been married long when they started to think that their marriage needed to have more of an outward focus rather than an inward focus. Francis: And we started letting people in the home and having people actually live with us. Ministry was in-house, and our kids saw it. The kids saw the miracles in these peoples' lives and the life-change. Discipleship was happening 24 hours a day in our home. We were missional. We were praying and saying, “God, what do You want us to do with this house?”—like everything was with an open hand, but I think that's what so few couples do—is they don't say, “Lord, what do You want?” Instead, they think, “What do we want, and how can I justify that biblically?” Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, January 24th. Our host is Dennis Rainey; I'm Bob Lepine. God can do some amazing things in the lives of couples and families who start to realize that marriage is about more than just the two of you. 1:00 We'll talk to Francis and Lisa Chan about that today. Stay with us. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. Before we dive right into what we're going to talk about today, we have just a couple days left in the special offer we're making to FamilyLife Today listeners. If you'd like to join us at one of our upcoming Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways coming to a city near where you live, you register before the end of the week and you'll save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. This is the last week we're making this offer—it's the best offer we make all year long. So, if you'd like to save some money and have a great getaway together, as a couple, this spring—we're going to be in more than 50 cities across the country this spring—plan to join us, and register now to take advantage of the special offer. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com—you can register online—or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to register or if you have any questions. 2:00 Block out a weekend where the two of you can just kind of tune into each other and tune everything else out for 48 hours. The FamilyLife® Weekend to Remember marriage getaway really is a great getaway weekend for couples, and we'd love to have you register this week so you can save some money. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to register. Now, we have had Francis and Lisa Chan joining us this week. It's been fun to get a little dirt on this couple—you know—I mean, on their marriage. Dennis: Well, on Francis. [Laughter] Francis— Bob: That's true. I don't know that we've gotten any dirt on Lisa. Dennis: I don't think we've heard much on Lisa. Lisa: Well, we don't have any more time. [Laughter] Dennis: Welcome back to the broadcast. Lisa: Thank you. Dennis: Glad you're here. Francis and Lisa Chan have written a book, You and Me Forever. It's all about marriage in light of eternity. In fact, you say something in your book, Francis, I want you just to comment on here. 3:00 You say that it's important to love Lisa in light of eternity. Explain to our listeners what you mean by that statement. Francis: Yes; it's the same thing that the Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15. He said, “If there is no resurrection from the dead, then, I am above all men most to be pitied,”—like: “I would live completely differently if there is no forever / if there is no eternity. Then, let's just enjoy—we'll just eat, drink, and] be merry. Let's just have a great little family / have a great time here on earth, and just think about us.” But no—because there is a forever—now: “How do I love her in the greatest way?” Dennis: —and because you are accountable to the God who made us. Francis: Yes; and made her for a reason! Dennis: Right. Francis: And He made this marriage for a reason—it was for Him. Everything was created by Him and for Him. 4:00 So, we—I mean, this is what differentiates / is supposed to differentiate us from the rest of the world—is that we're not living for this life. It's not about your best life right now. It's about: “No; I'm thinking about the future. I'm storing up treasure in heaven.” Don't waste your time just building up and storing up treasures on earth, where someone is going to steal it, or it's going to fall apart, and you've got to insure it and everything else. Store up this treasure in heaven. Really believe that you are going to be rewarded a hundred times anything you sacrifice. If I am thinking about Lisa's forever and her future, then, I'm going to live a lot differently right here. Bob: Lisa, I had the opportunity, a number of years ago, to go to a group of friends. I said, “If you were going to share a passage from the Bible about marriage with a couple just getting started—and it couldn't be Ephesians 5, couldn't be 1 Peter 3, couldn't be Colossians 3—kind of the big ones that we all go to / couldn't go there—what passage would you share with them?” 5:00 And two guys that I asked the question to, independently, gave me the same verse. It was one that really surprised me. It was out of Psalm 34. They said, “I used this verse to propose to my wife.” It was the verse that says, “O, magnify the Lord with me, and let us exalt His name together.” They said: “We wanted to start our marriage saying, ‘This is what we're getting married to do—to magnify the Lord together and exalt His name together.' That's the mission. That's the purpose statement for our marriage.” I thought to myself, “I want to go back and do it over—I want to propose with that verse in mind,” because I wasn't smart enough, when I got married, to have that at the center of what I was all about. Lisa: Yes; you know, it's interesting because I just spoke, last week, for a group with young moms. I was reminding them: “You are more than a mother. You are more than a wife. You are a child of God. You are here for Him.” 6:00 And I know we are talking about marriage right now; but I was trying to get them to think outside of—even just in their everyday life: “You belong to God. You are here”—like it says in Ephesians 2:10, I think it is—“You are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus, to do good works that He prepared in advance…”—right? Well, afterward, one of the moms comes up and she just says: “You know, my husband and I—we both work fulltime. We are kind of stuck. We have these jobs, and this house, and these cars. We want to serve the Lord, but…”—but—you know? I'm thinking, “Wow!” We were just talking about how we need to back things up and get people like that, who think beforehand, who—young people who will say: “You know what? Our marriage is going to be about a mission. Our marriage is going to be about the fact that we are here for God. So, we are going to make different choices. We are going to set our life up in a way that gives us total freedom to do whatever God asks of us.” 7:00 And that is a message I long to get out to people who haven't done it yet—who aren't stuck right now. Dennis: There are a lot of couples who are trapped. Lisa: Yes. Dennis: They are ensnared. Lisa: Yes; and there is nothing worse than not being able to tell the Lord, “I will do anything or go anywhere for You.” That should be true of each of us, scary as it is. I'm not saying it's not. I'm fearful sometimes of what the Lord will ask me to do; but I'm more afraid of not being able to do what He asks me to do. Who are we here for?! Dennis: So, Lisa, as you and Francis started your marriage, how much on mission were you, at that point? Did your marriage start with this agreement that you were going to be a part of the Great Commission / being a part of proclaiming Jesus Christ to a lost world? Lisa: Yes; I think because it was almost unintentional in some ways. I don't think I personally was thinking about discipleship and really putting my mindset, intentionally, on, “How many women am I going to disciple and bring to the Lord?” 8:00 It was more—we jumped onto this mission that God had given us in starting the church. I thank God for that because I think, in a way, for me, it inadvertently put me on a mission. Our marriage started out that way—and then, this growing sense of: “What we are here for, and why we are here” and the joy that came from, all of a sudden, we are pouring our lives out for these other people—loving them/discipling them. We were put in a position of leadership, and we needed to lead. So, it was so good for me—I'm so grateful for it—but the intentional mindset grew. It wasn't so much for me there, right in the beginning. Dennis: Francis, what about you? Francis: Because of my upbringing, and because my parents and everyone died at such a young age, I had more of an eternal focus. I just woke up, thinking: “Okay; this could be my last day. What am I going to do?”—you know. 9:00 “Let me do whatever the Lord wants me to do today.” It was my focus, and I was trying to bring Lisa, who had had a different upbringing—and again, no fault to her / no fault to her parents. I mean, that's the typical American church teaching—is: “This is all about you. Let us cater to your needs. What kind of programs do you want in the church?” You know, it's all about you. So, it's just—it was trying to get us deeply into the Scriptures and say: “Now, what is this about? Why are we still alive? Why am I breathing right now? Someone is letting me breathe right now, and I'm breathing for Him. I want to do everything for His glory.” So, I did have some of that intensity in me from the onset, I think, from a young age because of what God let me experience. Bob: Well, it's one thing for two people, who have that passion, individually, to get married. The blending of that together and making it “our passion together, as a couple,” as opposed to “my passion,” and “your passion,” and we share a supper table and a bed. 10:00 How have you merged mission together in marriage? Lisa: I grew up—I wanted to be a singer—I sang in our church / I did some studio recordings. When we first—we'd been married a few months—I was approached with this production deal; right? These guys were going to record me, produce me, [and] put me out there. I say that because my mission—if you want to call it that, or my dream, was: “I'm going to be a recording artist. I'm going to sing, and get to travel, and do this.” And here was my husband, whom God had called to start a church. I felt the Lord very gently saying: “You need to lay that down, because I can't have you going in two separate directions. It makes no sense. Be on mission together. Don't have two separate things that you're doing—that's going to pull you apart.” 11:00 Bob: If you think—and I know this is—no one knows; but if you think / had you made the other choice—let's say you decided: “You know, let's just see where this goes. You do the church, and I'm going to do the recording thing. We'll…” What do you think might have happened? Lisa: I don't know what would have happened. I think what would have not happened is that we wouldn't have been so united by our purpose, and I would have missed out on God moving and working through the both of us, and I would have missed out on being able to be in this supporting role that actually ended up bringing me a lot more blessing than what this lime-light would have possibly given me. I think, years later, as he would speak—and then there were times I would come up and follow his message with a song—and I remember just feeling the joy of: “Wow, Lord; You've let me still use my gift for You, but in the context of joining my husband in ministry rather than being down by myself, isolated on my own road.” 12:00 Dennis: Let's talk about, for a moment, just a person, who's slugging out life, as a couple. They are going, “You guys are talking about mission.” How can they get started, Francis, to begin to share—and that's what I want them to catch—they'd be infected with a love for Christ, but also, being locked arm / locked step together, as a couple, defined around that purpose of the Great Commission? Bob: And can they be on mission together if they are living in the suburbs and they've got two kids and—you know, kind of the ordinary life—or does being on mission mean: “No; you've got to abandon it all. Move somewhere else and live somewhere else in some other way”? Dennis: Yes. Francis: Yes—no. I mean, because we live in the city—and we did live in the suburbs, and I believe we were missional—but we—the idea is surrendering everything—like we've talked about—to say, “God, this is Your house.” I mean, where do we see in Scripture that you are allowed to not show hospitality and say: “No; this is my home. No one else is allowed in it”? 13:00 I mean, but that's the mindset I had when we first got married, though; because I remember her even discipling a gal, you know, after 5 o'clock. I was like, “Don't ever have her in our house after five,”—you know, because I believed that whole lie—that this home is protected, and we need our own time. Bob: “My castle”; right? Francis: Exactly! Bob: Yes; right. Francis: And then, you start reading Scripture and go, “Where in the world would you get that?” And we started letting people in the home and having people actually live with us. Ministry was in-house, and our kids saw it. The kids saw the miracles in these peoples' lives and the life-change. Discipleship was happening 24 hours a day in our home. I mean, we were missional. We were praying and saying: “God, what do You want us to do with this house? Do You want us to move into a bigger house so we can take more people in? Do You want us to sell the house, move into a smaller one, and give the money away?”—like everything is with an open hand, but I think that's what so few couples do—is they don't say, “Lord, what do You want?” 14:00 Instead they think, “What do we want, and how can I justify that biblically?” Bob: So, the starting place for being on mission is to say: “It's not about me. It's about Him. It's: ‘What do You want?'” But a lot of couples will say, “Well, but I don't know what He wants; because I prayed and said, ‘Lord, whatever You want…' and I haven't heard anything yet.” Francis: Well, I would say, “Open the Book”—not our book; you know? [Laughter] Yes; open that one too. You know, in the Scriptures—I mean, there are so many things—this is where we are so messed up, as a church, here in America—you know, being hearers of the Word and doing . You know, we're waiting for this voice from the Lord. Well, true religion is to care for the widows and orphans in their distress. Go adopt a kid! Why don't you just assume adoption unless the Lord screams from heaven: “No; stop! Don't do it!” Shouldn't we assume—if this is true religion—then, everyone should adopt? I mean, I'm saying, “Why do we always defer to inaction?” 15:00 We just assume, “I'll do nothing until I hear a voice from heaven.” No; just open the Bible. Obey a verse—actually do it. If there is a voice from heaven telling you: “No; no matter what you do, don't help that widow,”—then, stop—but we do this opposite. Dennis: And there are a lot of— Bob: There is no voice from heaven, going to say, “Don't help that widow”; right? Dennis: Exactly. What I want our listeners to hear—there are a lot of ways to go near the orphan. You can go to the foster care system. They are in desperate need of foster care families. And frankly, the church of Jesus Christ ought to be emptying out the foster care system of children, in state after state, around our country. I mean, you don't have to adopt—you can just provide a family. For some of these kids, it may be the only family in their lifetimes—they ever see what real love is all about. Francis: Yes; that makes absolutely no sense to me that there are half a million foster kids that no one wants. How many millions of churches are there? 16:00 You know, it's like we've got over a million churches, and we have half a million foster kids. That makes zero sense. So, if every other church adopted one, we'd take care of it; but that's how pathetic it is right now. Lisa: The most paralyzing thing, I think, for us, as believers, is fear. We're so afraid of what might happen: “Well, what about my kids? What if I bring someone in [and] something happens to them?” And I just want to encourage people that I'm just as afraid as you. In fact, I told God: “I do not want a teenage foster child. I believe that what's best for us, in our family, is to take someone that's younger.” What does the Lord bring to us but a teenage foster child? She has been the most amazing blessing. And if I talk about it for too long, I'll end up crying on the air; but just—you know, we cringe to think of saying, “No,” to that and what would have happened— Dennis: Right. Lisa: —in her life. [Emotion in voice] But I'm telling you, honestly, on the front side, I did not want to do that. 17:00 But there is so much blessing in taking a step of faith. So, take a step of faith—maybe, even if it is not as grand as taking in a foster child. But do something that takes some faith. Go knock on your neighbor's door. Bring them dinner to say: “I want to show some love to you. Do you need help? Can I help mow your lawn?” Do some step of faith—take some action. Dennis: You just mentioned something there—and I appreciate, so much, your passion and tender heart about this because Barbara and I share that. We have gone near the needs of orphans repeatedly. When you get near the orphan, you find the heart of God; and it's a good thing because we are orphans too. Apart from the gospel—God adopting us into His family—we're spiritual orphans. Here's the question for both of you, Lisa and Francis. I like to ask people: “What's the most courageous thing you've ever done in all your life?” Courage is not battlefield courage, necessarily—it's doing your duty in the face of fear. 18:00 It's the very thing you were talking about. So, what would you say is the most courageous thing you've ever done, Lisa? Lisa: The most courageous thing you can do is say, “Yes,” to something God is asking you to do that you are afraid of. There have been so many times—I scramble to think of which one to share. I think about the time when we invited a man, who had been in prison for six years, and his family of three kids—his wife and three kids—to move in with us—to give them our master bedroom, to move upstairs with our kids, and share that bathroom with all of them. That took a little bit of courage, and it took dying to ourselves. It took saying, “You can have my bedroom and my bathroom,”—which was, in one sense, so stupid and dumb but felt hard—and letting go of fear / letting go of fear—that's the most courageous thing to do. If you are a scaredy-cat, like me, you have to preach the truth to yourself. 19:00 You have to preach verses like 2 Timothy 1:7: “For God gave us a spirit, not of fear, but of power and love and self-control.” I have to say the truth of God's Word to myself, all the time, because I will limit myself. I will refuse to say, “Yes,” to God and will be consumed with anxiety and fear in all these situations. But: “No; that is not from God. He gave us, not a spirit of fear, but of power, and love, and self-control.” So, choose to say, “Yes,” to God and to love someone. Dennis: Alright; Francis, what is your most courageous thing you've ever done? Francis: You know, it's funny. A lot of those things that scare me a little bit—but I'm not really that afraid of dying, or this, or that. You'll probably be surprised by this; but probably, the most courageous moments are—when I'm sitting on a plane with a stranger or talking to a neighbor—and I lay out the gospel, one on one, with them. That terrifies me. [Laughter] 20:00 That may just sound dumb to some people, but that's the hardest thing for me—to be rejected and to just throw—I can stand in front of 100,000 people in a stadium—no big deal! You put me, one on one, with someone that I know is not used to hearing about Jesus—and I'm going to lay it out for them—it still scares me to this day. It still takes courage. Bob: Do you know how many people just went, “Oh, it's so good to hear him say that”? [Laughter] Dennis: Here's what I want to share with you: “You're in good company.” Bob: Yes. Francis: Yes. Dennis: We just recently asked a guy that same question—not just any guy—but a NASA astronaut, who was on the International Space Station. I asked him—he's been to outer space twice. So, he's strapped a rocket— Lisa: Right. Dennis: —on and gone into outer space. Bob: He floated out in nothing with the space suit and the tentacles on him; you know? Dennis: Oh, yes—so, you with me? I asked him the same question. It's like you—he's going, “Sharing my faith in Jesus Christ—" 21:00 Francis: Yes. Dennis: —“is repeatedly the most courageous thing I ever do.” Francis: Totally. And it's interesting—when I was younger, we didn't care for the poor. We didn't think about human trafficking—this or that. So, when we started doing that, that was a big deal; but now, that's not really a scary thing to do—that's very accepted / you know, you're a hero if you do this—but if you start sharing the gospel, you're going to get shutdown. Dennis: Especially today; huh? Francis: Amen! It's—times are changing. Dennis: Well, I just want to applaud you two and your book because I think you properly paint marriage with its noble, transcendent, God-imbued purpose—that we're made in His image, designed to reproduce a godly legacy, preach the gospel to the next generation, and glorify Him in all that we say and do. I just am glad you are using marriage to promote that kind of thinking because I think that's what's missing today. 22:00 Francis: Amen. Dennis: I just want to thank you guys for being in the battle; and Lisa, for following this guy / for saying, “Yes,” to him— Bob: Crazy Francis; right? That's— Dennis: Well, Crazy Love Francis. Francis: There you go. Bob: Maybe, just scrap the love part—I think Crazy Francis. [Laughter] Dennis: But thank you guys for all you do. Francis: Yes; thanks for having us. Lisa: Yes; thank you very much. Bob: We have copies of the book that Francis and Lisa have written. It's called You and Me Forever. You can order it from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the website—FamilyLifeToday.com—or call to order the book, You and Me Forever—1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” And don't forget—this weekend is the wrap-up of the special offer we're making for FamilyLife Today listeners. 23:00 If you'd like to attend an upcoming Weekend to Remember marriage getaway—a two-and-a-half-day getaway for couples in a nice setting, where you can relax and unwind, and just have a couple of days together, focusing on your marriage—every marriage could use that; right? Well, if you'd like to save 50 percent off the registration fee, you need to sign up this week to take advantage of the special offer. You can sign up, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to register at 1-800-FL-TODAY. If you have any questions, give us a call or go to our website; and plan to join us at a getaway. I tell couples all the time: “Most of us are more conscientious about making sure we change the oil in our car than we are about making sure we keep our marriage functioning the way it ought to be functioning,” and “Marriage takes some time, and effort, and work; and this is a part of how you do that.” So, sign up this week and join us at a Weekend to Remember getaway—save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. 24:00 Go to FamilyLifeToday.com or call 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” And speaking of marriage, tomorrow, we're going to hear from our friend, Alistair Begg, who has some thoughts about the solemnity of marriage and about the importance of understanding marriage as a covenant relationship. We'll hear from him tomorrow. I hope you can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
The Good Life (Part 1) - Chuck ColsonThe Good Life (Part 2) - Chuck ColsonFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. The Good LifeDay 2 o 2 Guest: Chuck Colson From the Series: A Life Well-Lived________________________________________________________________ Bob: Do the truth claims of Christianity make rational, logical, reasonable sense? Chuck Colson says they do. Chuck: I've gotten so convinced of the truth of the biblical worldview as applied in life against any other worldview, and I'm convinced if I could argue the case that the biblical worldview is the only one that conforms to reality, that I would win that case, hands down, intellectually – by reason, by arguments, by logic. But that doesn't get you to God. As a matter of fact, sometimes the more you know, the tougher it gets. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, August 30th. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. What can we do or say that will persuade a watching world of the reality of who Christ is? And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us. You know, the guest we have with us this week – I don't know – in fact, I'm curious – it's obvious, as you read through what he's written, that he's been influenced by C.S. Lewis and by Francis Shaffer, and I just wonder who wins the battle there – Lewis versus Shaffer? Who has had more influence in Chuck Colson's life – C.S. Lewis or Francis Shaffer? Chuck: I would hate to answer that question, Bob, because both of them have had a huge influence on my life. Lewis would probably, however, if I had to chose between the two, would be number one because it was his arguments in "Mere Christianity," that persuaded me that Christianity is rational, reasonable, sustainable, as a matter of fact, nothing else makes sense. And so you'll see a lot of Lewis through this book. In terms of my theology, Shaffer; and, before him, Abraham Kiper, influenced my perspective on Scripture and the relationship of the church and Scripture to the world. So in two different areas, I am profoundly grateful to those three men. Bob: Was Shaffer still alive when you came to faith? Chuck: Oh, yes, I knew him. Oh, sure, I went to LeBrie [ph] and visited with him at his invitation. We spent a day together. It was a wonderful time. He was a very humble man, and then I visited with him a number of times when he came to the States and was at speeches and conferences. I was at his funeral, the first person to come in and view the body, as a matter of fact, when he laying in his living room. Bob: I kind of just jumped in. I guess most of our listeners probably know our guest. Dennis: I think they recognized the voice of Chuck Colson. Chuck, welcome back to FamilyLife Today. Chuck: Thanks, Dennis, nice to be with you. Dennis: Chuck has written a book called "The Good Life," and you don't have to turn but a couple of pages before you read a quote by Pascal, who said, "The supreme function of reason is to show man that some things are beyond reason." Chuck: Blaise Pascal is one of the most interesting men ever, and his writings have affected me greatly, as well, particularly his Pensees. But Pascal died in his late thirties, and was the inventor of the computer. He did the first crude calculating device. Bob: This isn't some Al Gore thing you're just making up? Chuck: No, no, this isn't Al Gore inventing the unit. Blaise Pascal, 300 years ago, came up with the concept that has become the computer. He was also a great philosopher and great Christian. What he's basically saying is that reason is a gift of God, and we can use reason to pursue with our minds facts and truth, and the more we look for the facts and truth about life, we will eventually get to the point where we realize reason takes us only so far. Dennis: Right. Chuck: And the more we reason – and that's what I do in this book – the more we reason, we get to the place where we have to end up in faith. Dennis: You tell a story at the beginning of your book that beautifully illustrates that. It's about your daughter, Emily, who is a single parent raising an autistic child, Max. Chuck: Yes, she's a great heroine to me, and Max is the most lovable kid in the world. And I tell the story of why I wrote this book, basically, this book is to try to show people how the world works and how they fit into it, and it's to be non-threatening. It's a book for seekers. That's why it relies on reason for the first two-thirds of the book before it gets to Scripture and faith, because I want to draw people in. But one thing about autism, as most people perhaps are aware, everything has to be orderly in just perfect arrangement for an autistic child. When Max comes to our house – he's 14, he's getting to be a big kid. Emily does a wonderful job managing him. When he comes to our house, he checks where all the pictures are. Are they all on the wall, in the same place? Does the stove work the same way? Has anything changed? And then as long as he knows everything is okay, he's at peace. Well, one night we had a visitor come to the house, and it was unexpected, and he brought a Christmas gift for me, and when he came in the house, Max started to get agitated, and you could see he was going to have what euphemistically called a "meltdown," and they go out of control, they have a tantrum. So Emily grabbed a pad and sat down with Max and drew pictures. She's a good artist. She drew little box pictures like a comic strip. And she would say, "This man knocking on the door, he's a friend of Grandpa's, they go fishing together," and then she'd draw a little sign of a fishing boat, and then "They work together, and it's Christmas, and he's brought this gift." She drew the picture. Suddenly, Max understood how his little world at that moment worked, and he calmed down immediately. And what I'm doing in this book is drawing a picture for people the same way Emily drew a picture for Max of how the world works. What things are true, what things aren't true, what can you find about life, and most of which is through paradoxes. What can you find out that's true about life, and then figure out how you fit in. And, of course, the ultimate question is what is true? Is there truth, and is it knowable? The second half of the book is devoted to that question which, to me, is one that we Christians desperately need to understand how you make that case and then make it with our friends. And, particularly, get your kids to understand there is truth, and it is knowable, and here is how it's knowable before they go to college or before they leave the home, because the first thing they'll be assaulted with is the statement, "There is no truth." Bob: Do you remember when Timothy McVeigh was executed, and he read, as his final statement in life, the poem, "Invictus," which ends with I am the captain of my own destiny. Do you think most people think that that is what life is all about? Chuck: Well, I think a lot of people would say that, because I would have said that before I was converted, and that's a statement of pride. In the case of Timothy McVeigh, it was insufferable arrogance. He was captain of his own ship, master of his own destiny, he could control life. That was Nietzche – the world of power. You can will yourself to this position. A lot of people imbibe that because they think that's what they're supposed to think. Deep down inside, no, they cry like a baby inside, because they know they need other people, they know they need things. One of the great studies I cited in this book was down at Dartmouth, and it discovered that human beings are wired, literally, the way we are genetically disposed – the way our brains work, we are wired to connect. In other words, we don't live alone. We live in community, we live with family, we live with friends, we live in a nation. And, secondly, we're wired for God. We are actually searching for a meaningful relationship with the One who created us. Whether we acknowledge it or not, and most people out of pride won't acknowledge it, just like I wouldn't. But, oh, I was so desperately hungry, and as soon as I let those defenses go, that guard go down, that night in the driveway in that flood of tears – sure, it came to me. So I'm trying to walk people through that same question in this book. Dennis: Reason can only take us so far; faith is what finishes the connection between the human soul and God. Chuck: Exactly. Dennis: And what you've attempted to do is exhort us to come to the truth. One of the things I want you to comment on – you just alluded to it briefly a few moments ago – you say that today there is no such thing as reality or, capital T, Truth, in our culture today. And I think, for the average mom and dad who are raising kids, I don't think they realize, Chuck, what a battleground this is around truth. Chuck: This is the battleground. This is the battleground. Is there any reality, is there any ultimate reality … Dennis: Or is it just opinion? Chuck: Yes, it is just your preference versus my preference, and that's what they're being taught in college. They're sawing off the branch on which they sit, and so what I'm trying to show in this book is that there is reality, there has to be reality, we know there is, we know there are certain things that conform to the way they truly are, which is the classical definition of truth. The job is to find it. But, Dennis, you hit the nail on the head – you get to the point where you can prove it. I've gotten so convinced of the truth of the biblical worldview as applied in life against any other worldview, that my great dream, as I write in "The Good Life," my great dream is someday to be able to stand in the Supreme Court – every lawyers dream – and argue His case in the Supreme Court. And I'm convinced if I could argue the case that the biblical worldview is the only one that conforms to reality, that I would win that case, hands down, intellectually – by reason, by arguments, by logic. But that doesn't get you to God. As a matter of fact, sometimes the more you know, the tougher it gets. That's why the last chapter of this book is about faith as the step we have to take. And people say, "Well, I can't profess faith because I have doubts." Good. If you didn't have doubts, faith wouldn't be required. If God were as obvious as the tree in the yard, you wouldn't have to have faith. Dennis: You know, it's interesting to hear you say that, because you're a very bright, intellectual man – well-educated. You continue to study the world religions throughout the scope of your life, and yet as you move toward the last phase of your life, you are more convinced not less. Chuck: I remember many years ago hearing Malcolm Muggeridge – I don't know how many of our listeners will remember that name, but he was a great writer, a great journalist, who converted late in life. And he said, "I'm more convinced of the reality of Jesus Christ than I am of my own reality." And he was a colorful guy – white hair going all over the place, and he'd always have a wonderful chuckle. I was with him once for tea, and he was talking about this, and I thought, "Well, he's an old man." At that point, he was the same age I am now. And I said this is a bit of hyperbole. You know, it isn't. I'm convinced that the logos means all the intelligence, all that can be – but to the Greeks, everything that could be known or is known. But the logos basically programs the little computers in the billions of cells we have within us called DNA, which has information like 30 volumes of the Encyclopedia Britannica four times over is the information in one of the DNAs that program ourselves. Bill Gates, he's never designed as sophisticated software as the DNA. And I think the logos programs that. I think we are kept alive by God because He – the spiritual world – and a British physicist converted and has written books about this – the spiritual world actually animates the physical world. So I think it's right. I think we're more convinced of the reality of Christ than unreality. And the more I study the more convinced I get. Bob: As a dad trying to raise kids who will pursue the good life, as you've defined it there, in a culture that is increasingly trying to point them in other directions – I'll tell you how I became aware of the struggle that I was in the midst of. A year ago, when the issue of gay marriage was in the news, one of my children was asked to write a paper on it at school, and I could tell there was a real wrestle between the desire to be compassionate and the desire to be truthful, and I thought, "Where is this going to end up?" And I really do wonder where it's going to end up in the culture – not just with my kids but with all of our kids. How can we, today, point our kids in this direction? Chuck: Well, I think this is, of course, a great question, Bob, and I was just talking with a fellow this morning about that very question. First of all, you've got to explain to them that there is an order to life. I mean, life does work a certain way. And sin is nothing but, as Neal Plantinga, the great theologian at Calvin Seminary says, "Sin is nothing but folly," foolishness, because it's like walking into a room blindfolded, and you don't know where you're going to hit the furniture. You've got to know how the world is organized in order to live rationally. And your daughter writing that paper is going to have a natural tendency to say, "Well, if these people are disposed this way, why should we tell them they can't behave this way?" And if she were to answer that question in her paper saying, "Well, I feel sorry for these people, but the Bible says it's a sin." She wouldn't absolutely make any points at all with her classmates or anyone else, because they'd say, "Well, that's what the Bible says. You live by the Bible, I don't live by the Bible." What you have to say is there's a natural order to life. Life works a certain way. Sex is for procreation. That's why we have that capacity. It doesn't work in homosexual sex. They cannot perform a natural act. It is unnatural, whether you like to use that word or not, it is. There is a natural order in life; there is a natural law. This was C.S. Lewis's great argument that had such an effect on me when he talked about this natural law and people know it, and they've known it through every culture in every generation. We know the world works a certain way, which is the very point I've been trying to make in here. We know the world works a certain way, and our job is to live our lives in accordance with what works, otherwise we're dumb, we're stupid, because Neal Plantinga puts it very graphically – "When you don't live the way the world works, it's like spitting into the wind or coloring outside the lines or cutting across the grain of the universe." So it's just good sense to figure out. Now, the relationship between a man and a woman in marriage is the way you perpetuate the human race. You raise children in an environment where character can be cultivated and learned. It's never taught, it's learned. And you can't do that if the relationship doesn't conform to the way the world works. If everybody were homosexual there wouldn't be any children. So you can't tell me that it's normative. It isn't normative, it can't be normative by definition. And I make the natural order arguments, which, over the years, Catholics are much better at than we are. Evangelicals always use the Bible because it is our primary source of knowledge, obviously, but it won't wash with people. The natural order argument is very, very important. Bob: So that's where we've got to point our kids. Chuck: That's where we point our kids – explaining the reality of the way the world works. Dennis: You conclude your book talking about how the good life ultimately ends in death, which can result in new life. And throughout the book, you use illustrations of people who illustrate the good life positively and negatively, and as you talk about the end of a matter; that is, death, you use two illustrations. One is a funeral you and I attended where Bill Bright was honored for his life; and another illustration you use was a funeral neither of us attended, because there was none – John Ehrlichman, a Watergate figure. Just quickly contrast John's life with Bill's life. Chuck: Well, John Ehrlichman, I went back to see – when he invited me to when he was in a nursing home in Atlanta, everything had collapsed in his life. He'd been through three marriages, his family abandoned him, he had nothing. He was penniless and powerless – once one of the most powerful men in the world. And he wanted to see me because the doctor had told him he had renal failure. He was on kidney dialysis. A doctor told him that he could get a shot of morphine and put himself out of the misery. I was shocked. I spent an hour talking about the dignity of life and the meaning of life. I don't know whether it sank in or not. A friend of mine went back and prayed with him and hopefully he received Christ. I'd like to think he did before he died. But he died alone in the nursing home with nobody around him, having given up on life. I can't think of a more despairing story. And I tell it as a tragic story because he was such a good man until the collapse came in his life, and we said earlier what happens to you doesn't matter, it's how you react to what happens to you. Well, he reacted badly to what happened to him in the fall of Watergate. Contrast that with Bill Bright. I remember being with you at the funeral, Dennis, and what a great experience that was, what a joyous day that was for Bill's celebration of his life. But, Bill, when he learned he had pulmonary fibrosis, which is one of the most difficult ways to die, you're slowly suffocating, and it's agonizing death, and the doctor told him how bad it was going to be, and Bill said, "Praise the Lord, this is what God wants." Throughout that two, three-year period that Bill knew he was dying, maybe the most productive period in his ministry. He wrote all kinds of things, did videos. I'd go see him in his apartment, and he had the oxygen strapped to him, and he never was without a smile and always giving me ideas and "Here's something you can do in the ministry, Chuck." He was an extraordinary man. And when he died, Vonette was with him, and whispered to him, "It's all right," and he turned his head, and he died peacefully. John Paul II, the pope, gave the world a similar lesson in how to die in the midst of suffering, constantly issuing statements saying, "Suffering will be redeemed," and Christians have to know that suffering will be redeemed, and we have to know if you're going to live the good life, it contemplates a good death. It contemplates facing it with equanimity, because you know you're going to be with the Lord, and dying with grace to the extent you can. And, obviously, some people are in terrible pain. But Bill Bright set the gold standard for me. Dennis: He really did. He showed us how to live and how to die. Chuck: And how to die, yep. Dennis: There may be a man or a woman listening to this broadcast, perhaps a boy or a girl, who goes, "You know what? It's time for me to have that faith experience that you talked about where you had to pull the car off to the side of the road and receive Christ." Would you explain to them what they need to do? Just at their point where they are right now – how they can connect with God and know they're forgiven all their sins. Chuck: It's maddeningly simple, and the problem with it is that people think, "There's got to be more to that. I've got to do some good works, I've got to do something to show that I'm a good person. I'm really not. My life is a mess right now. I'll clean up my life first before I come to God." Wrong. You can't clean up your life, you're incapable of cleaning up your life, and God doesn't want you to even try. What He wants you to do is surrender – the humblest possible surrender. Get rid of your pride, which is the great enemy, and simply say, "Lord Jesus, I want You in my life. Forgive me of my sins." Let Him worry about cleaning them up. When I came to Him, I had a ton of sins, and there were some He could immediately erase, there were some he had to work on with me for a while, and that's part of the process of sanctification. It's a joint process between us and between God. But what it takes is a simple act of faith, recognizing that your doubts are a good thing. I loved what you said about Tom Skinner [ph], that was a marvelous quote. Your doubts are good things, because if you didn't have doubts, you wouldn't take God seriously. You wouldn't need God. We need Him because He settles the question for us, and He's made it so easy for just us to turn to Him as long as we are generally repentant and ask Him to come in and take our lives. Dennis: And He'll take us at our word at that point and make us a new creation in Christ. Chuck: You know, people say, "Does God answer prayers?" He answers the prayer of every single person who says, "Jesus, take me." Bob: And that puts you on the path for a good life. Dennis: It does, it does. Chuck: It is the good life. Dennis: Yeah, it is. Chuck, I want to thank you for being on FamilyLife Today. And, you know, someday I hope you get a chance to go to the Supreme Court and argue … Chuck: … argue that case … Dennis: … argue for Jesus Christ and why Christianity should be the worldview of every living human being. Bob: I'm just afraid you'd still get a five to four against in that verdict. With this Court I would get it exactly right. Chuck: Thanks for being, God bless you guys. Bob: We've got copies of your book available in our FamilyLife Resource Center. Again, the book is called "The Good Life," and I want to encourage our listeners – it makes the case – you don't need to hear the arguments before the Supreme Court. The book lays out the case, and it's pretty clear, and, in fact, it's pretty tough to refute. I think you can give this book to somebody who doesn't know Christ and just say, "I'd be interested in your thoughts as you read through this," and it could spark quite a dialog. Again, we've got copies in the FamilyLife Resource Center. Go to our website, FamilyLife.com, click the "Go" button at the bottom of the screen, and that will take you right to a page where you can get more information about Chuck Colson's book, "The Good Life." We also have the book that was instrumental in you coming to faith in Christ, and that's the book by C.S. Lewis called "Mere Christianity," which is another apologetic for the reasonableness of Christianity – a classic book. If you're interested in ordering both Chuck's book and "Mere Christianity," we'll send you at no additional cost the CD audio of our conversation this week with Chuck Colson. Again, the website is FamilyLife.com. Click the "Go" button at the bottom of the screen, and that will take you right to the page where you can get more information about these resources, or you can order online, if you'd like. If it's easier, you can call 1-800-FLTODAY, and there is someone on our team waiting to help you with an order. Again, it's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY. And let me say a special word of thanks to those folks who have gotten in touch with us over the last several weeks, Dennis, and have made a donation to FamilyLife Today. We're listener-supported, and we depend on donations to keep FamilyLife Today on this station and on stations all across the country. We hope that folks who donate to our ministry have first been faithful in donating to their local church. That ought to be your first giving priority. But in recent weeks, as some of our listeners have been aware that we are ending our fiscal year, and that summertime is coming to a close, we've had folks calling not only to make a donation but to challenge others to make a donation as well. We've heard from a lot of listeners who have attended one of our Weekend to Remember conferences, and they called not only to donate to FamilyLife Today but also to challenge other people who have benefited from the Weekend to Remember to make a donation. And we've heard from folks who have taken the resources that we created or even recommended this radio program to friends and have seen God use this in their lives. They've called to make a donation and wanted to challenge others to do the same. So we're hoping that you will consider meeting that challenge and maybe issue a challenge of your own. If you've not made a donation to FamilyLife Today in recent days, you can do that online at FamilyLife.com or you can call 1-800-FLTODAY to make a donation. Again, it's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY or go online and donate at FamilyLife.com. Well, tomorrow Lisa Bevere is going to join us, and we're going to talk about why it is that women wind up losing when they give in to pressure from men. She'll share some of her own story and some warnings for women. I hope you can be back with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. ______________________________________________________________________ We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 1) - Rosaria ButterfieldSecret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 2) - Rosaria ButterfieldSecret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 3) - Rosaria ButterfieldFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. What Is Hospitality? Guest: Rosaria ButterfieldFrom the series: Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Day 2 of 3) Bob: Rosaria Butterfield was a committed feminist and a lesbian when a local pastor and his wife invited her over for dinner. What she found in that dinner, and as she started attending his church, was that her caricature of Christians and Christianity was off the mark. Rosaria: I did not meet Christians who shared a narrowly-bounded, priggish world view. That is not what I met. I met people who could talk openly about sexuality and politics and did not drop down dead in the process. Ken Smith made it so clear to me that he could accept me right where I was—that there is a difference between acceptance and approval. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, September 17th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll hear today how a Presbyterian pastor was used by God to share the Gospel with a lesbian college professor and about the remarkable transformation that God did in her life. Stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. You know, if we were going to sit down in our communities and think where might there be a fertile mission field—people who would be open to hearing the message of the Gospel—I don't think we would think, “Well, I bet the queer studies program, down at the university—I bet they are dying for somebody to come in and share about Jesus with them.” You know? Dennis: I wouldn't think so. Bob: But the story we're hearing this week is the story of an unlikely convert. At least, that's what it says on the front of this book. Dennis: That's right. Rosaria Butterfield joins us, again, on FamilyLife Today. Rosaria—welcome back. Rosaria: Thank you so much. I am delighted to be here. Dennis: I want you to unpack what Bob just said because some of our listeners are going: “Wait a second! Did Bob just use the word, ‘queer'?” Rosaria: He did. He did. Dennis: And before we came into the studio— Rosaria: Right. We talked about it. Dennis: —I asked you about this. I think a lot of our listeners would— Rosaria: Sure. Dennis: —like to know what the background is. Let me just introduce you, though, before you answer my question. Rosaria has been married to her husband, Kent, since 2001. They have four children. She is a former English professor at Syracuse University. She has written a book called The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert. Bob: And did I say something wrong when I said, “queer”? Rosaria: You did not! No, you did not. Gay and lesbian studies started as a way of understanding the lives and appreciating the contributions made by gay men and lesbian women—but in a context of post-modernism and post-structuralism, even the—what we call normative gender of that statement—men, women—even the normative gender of that statement has become what we call contested or something that is only fixed in the eyes of a culture, not in the hearts of people. So, Queer Theory is the academic manifestation of the post-modern and post-structural world views as it applies to a person's sexuality. Bob: So, in 1997, studying—advancing Queer Theory—as a tenured professor at Syracuse— Rosaria: Well, I was tenured in '98— Bob: Okay. Rosaria: —but you know. Bob: And you're in a lesbian relationship, at the time. Rosaria: Absolutely. Bob: You write an editorial in the Syracuse newspaper, talking about these patriarchs who are coming to Syracuse—the Promise Keepers group: “No way should we let them near the campus.” Rosaria: Right. Bob: You get hate mail, and you get fan mail, and you get one letter from a pastor who says, “Let's talk.” Rosaria: Right. Bob: And that conversation—the beginning of that conversation put you on an unexpected path. Rosaria: Yes, it did; absolutely; absolutely. My husband's name is Kent. Kent is the pastor of the First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham. He just finished a series on hospitality—a preaching series. It was really interesting for me to sit—many, many years later—and remember that hospitality does not mean fellowship. Hospitality means bringing the stranger in. More than that, it means going to the gate, and getting the stranger, and bringing him or her in. I think, sometimes, Christians think we're practicing hospitality when we have our homeschool friends from church over for lunch. Well, that's fellowship, and that's very good; but it's not hospitality. Dennis: You mentioned that the gay and lesbian community was good at this. Rosaria: Very good at this. So, every Thursday night, my partner and I would open our home to anybody in the gay and lesbian community who wanted to just come in, and talk to us, and tell us what is going on. I tell pastors—you know: “Hints from Eloise.” Bob: “It's a good strategy here.” Rosaria: “It's a good strategy—just open it up—don't call it a Bible study. Call it a—just whatever—and just find out who your people are.” Dennis: Give us some idea of who would come over to your house when you and your partner invited. Rosaria: Well, I lived—first of all, we are not—I think people don't understand, sometimes—that, at a university, and especially, where I was coming from—the gay and lesbian community was highly-respected, and valued, and appreciated. So, it could be anyone. You know, graduate students, or faculty members, or neighbors. We might talk about some environmental issue. We might talk about, “So and So's dog needs to be put to sleep, and we should do something,”—you know, it was simply a day to catch up and know how to be hand-on-hand with one another. Bob: And the people coming might be gay or might be straight. They—the— Rosaria: Oh, yes. Bob: There's a diversity of folks. Rosaria: Oh, yes! Thank you for mentioning that. The gay and lesbian community is a diverse community; absolutely! So, we didn't all have one journey into the community, and we didn't have one story; but a very special person, who was there every, every time because she was my dear, dear friend—was a transgendered woman—and I call her “Jay” in the book. Bob: And Jay, when you say a transgendered woman, she is born anatomically male— Rosaria: Right. And is— Bob: —identified more as a female, began a process that starts with hormonal therapy and ultimately ends in surgery. Rosaria: Well, it may ultimately end in surgery. Surgery is very expensive. So, at my season, when Jay and I were very good friends, Jay is what we would call chemically-castrated. Bob: You use the female pronoun when you refer to Jay. Why do you do that? Rosaria: I do. I do. In fact, I was asked, recently, at a biblical counseling conference why I do that—because I respect the fact that when I am meeting people—I would do that today, as a Christian, by the way—this was not—some of the things I did back, then, I wouldn't necessarily do today, but I would do this today— Dennis: Right. Rosaria: —because you have to meet and respect people where they are. And hospitality is—I believe it is God's ordained path for evangelism. In First Corinthians—when God tells us that no temptation will befall you except for that which He will provide a way of escape—I want all of our Christian listeners to know that, from the bottom of my heart, I believe that your home and your church is a way of escape for somebody—for somebody like me or not like me, but for somebody—somebody that God has called. But if your door is closed or if you can't get over yourself—and maybe I can talk a little bit about this—you know that we pray, “Lord, may there be more of You and less of me.” We, as Christians, pray for a relinquished life. If that is so, then, our churches and our homes are the way of escape—but that has not historically been the truth; right? Dennis: Right. We've had a lot of judgmental walls and bars— Rosaria: Right; right. Dennis: —on our homes instead of doors, at that point. Rosaria: That's right. You know, I think it's a good question. I'm sure that there are people listening saying: “But I thought she had small children! What is she saying?” and, “Where do we draw the line?” There are lines to draw. I'm not suggesting that you should be careless, but I am suggesting that we should examine some things. Probably, the most important thing to examine is: “Who is Jesus?” and, “Is grace sufficient?” and, “Have I been forgiven of my sins?” Dennis: And that's really what I want you to finish unpacking, in terms of your story with Pastor Ken, who wrote you the letter—as Bob mentioned earlier—and didn't take you to task. Rosaria: No. No. Dennis: He asked you a bunch of questions that were hard for you to answer—invited you over to his home. Rosaria: Right. Dennis: And you went and had a delightful time. Rosaria: I did. I did. I met Christians who were thoughtful, and engaging, and smart, and did not use the Bible to punctuate the end of a sentence but rather to deepen it and had a vital faith life. And you know—the other thing I want to say about Ken, which was really interesting—it was not like Ken had some—went to some PhD program, where he developed a para-church ministry on how to minister to homosexuals—not at all! I suspect that I was the first person, in the lesbian community—that Ken had ever met—that he knew, perhaps, was a lesbian. But Ken knew Jesus. He knew Him really well. He knows Him really well. Therefore, Ken could walk the long journey over to me and help me walk that long journey back to Jesus because he didn't need a para-church ministry. Ken didn't need to find somebody in the church who had a daughter who was a lesbian—he didn't—he pretty much presumed that he could ask me some straight-up questions. I could answer them, and nobody was going to fall down dead. I think the fact that I wanted to read the Bible, even for the wrong reasons, was delightful to Ken. You know, as a pastor's wife now, I will tell you anybody who is excited to read the Bible—we don't care!—just start reading! Bob: —what your motive is—doesn't matter. Rosaria: It doesn't matter! [Laughter] Bob: Did you intentionally say things to Ken to try to shock him? Did you try to— Rosaria: I don't remember, intentionally, trying to scare Ken. I think I tried to tell him that I was a member of a Unitarian Church, in the hopes that he wouldn't invite me to church; but I didn't realize that he wasn't planning on inviting me to church. He was planning on bringing the church to me, a heathen. Bob: You said, “He and his wife, Floy, came to your house.” Rosaria: Oh, yes. Bob: Like, did they come on Thursday nights? Rosaria: No, well, I don't think so. No, no, no. Not in that kind of thing, but what happened—this is how it started. Ken and Floy and I became friends. They let me do things for them—which is really nice because, sometimes, Christians forget that a really good way to be loving is to let other people use their gifts. I loved to bake bread and make soup. So, if somebody was sick, I loved doing that. They let me serve them in that way. Then, they served me in many ways. We just had a grand old time. In fact, I felt like: “Wow! I have finally arrived! I am a real liberal! I finally have friends who are not in the queer community and have PhD's in the humanities. Look, I have these evangelical”— Dennis: These right-wingers! Rosaria: —“these straight, evangelical, conservative Christians; and I hang out with them. I've arrived!” Then, Ken said something really funny—well, it was the gauntlet moment. He said, “Rosaria, I am concerned about the English Department.” I should tell you I was the undergraduate coordinator of the English program. So, I was a little concerned about where this was going. He said: “Well, you've read the Bible now; and you see that it has every genre. It is a beautiful book of literature. I would like to go and speak to your English majors and tell them why they should be reading the Bible.” Well, my claws came out. I was—suddenly, the mother bear in me was born; and I just made it very clear that— Bob: That wasn't going to happen. Rosaria: Over my dead body and through my claws. Dennis: That was brilliant though. Rosaria: Well, let me tell you what happened next! It occurred to me, though, that this lecture would be pretty advantageous for me because I am a student of hermeneutics; but I do not know the hermeneutical traditions that an evangelical Christian uses. I know about canonicity, but I don't know about the canons that legitimated these 66 books. I thought to myself: “Hmm. You know what? I'd like to hear this lecture.” So, before I took Ken's head off, I said, “How about an audience of one?” And this is probably the most spectacular thing about Ken Smith. You think about it. Often, in the church, we want to talk to a thousand people. We get frustrated: “Oh, so few people came to this worship service,” or, “Oh, we had this outreach; and there were only—well, one.” Ken came for me—for one. I still have the notes. He lectured for an hour. I thought that man would never shut up! [Laughter] I was fuming! I was fuming. So, when he got to the end—finally, he stopped! [Laughter] You know, “Hallelujah! He stopped!” I said: “Ken, you have one book that declares it is the true truth—and it does so on—of all things—an ontology. It claims to be true because of its own truth claim! I mean, that's just—you get thrown out of the game for playing that way. I have—what?—a hundred, on the bookshelf behind you, that says you are wrong.” He just clapped his hands and grinned. He said, “Exactly! And next week, we're going to talk about that!” [Laughter] Bob: It wasn't just a lecture. He was taking you to a class, here. Rosaria: He did—a one student. Dennis: And so, what happened? I mean, how did you find your way on that journey? Rosaria: Well, yes. That night, I remember walking my dog and thinking, “My world would be a very different world if I believed these things.” Dennis: In fact, you were starting to change, even— Rosaria: I was. Dennis: —in the midst of that. Your friend, the transgender friend— Rosaria: My friend, Jay—well, that's right. She had cornered me, in the kitchen, at one of my Thursday night events—that was important, too, by the way, because I felt like, in some ways, her response gave me permission. So, this was important. She cornered me in the kitchen and said: “Look, before you pour any more glasses of wine or fill any more pasta bowls, you need to come clean with me. All of this Bible reading is changing you, and I'm worried.” I sat down in the chair. I felt like I was going to throw up. I said: “What if it's true? What if it's true—and you, and I, and everyone we know—we're all in trouble. What if Jesus is a real and risen Lord, Who sits at the right of God, the Father? What if all of this is true? What if Jesus died for the sins of His people? What if healing happens through the stripes of Jesus? What if He took on a curse so that people could be blessed? What if all of that—that whole story—I mean, do you know that story? What if all that is true?” Then, she sat down and looked like she was as bad off as I was, at that point, and said: “I know! I was a Presbyterian minister for 15 years. I prayed that God would heal me, but He didn't. If you'd like, I'll pray that God will heal you.” That threw me for a loop: “What does it mean that she prayed for healing but didn't get it?” That conversation left me a jumble of raw emotions. That was the thing about this whole journey—that it was just eating me alive. So, the next day, I came home from work, got the mail, and started to let the dogs out. I found a crate of books by my door, and it was from Jay. It was, I presume, her theological library. I picked up the first book, and it was Calvin's Institutes. I was just flipping through it. I love to see other people's handwriting in the margin of books because—especially, friends—I love to see the journey that friends have taken. Right there, next to the exposition of Romans 1, in Jay's handwriting—in her handwriting, it said: “Watch out. This is where you will fall.” Then, I went to the Bible. I opened it up, and I looked at Romans 1. I'd already read it; but this time, it just hit me, between the eyes, that God gives some over to a degrading passion. I had never thought about my life in those terms before. That made me want to just throw the Bible and everything in the trash and ignore Ken's e-mails and phone calls. It made me think about this. So, I tried to do that, of course; but it didn't work because Ken believes in the perseverance of the saints. So, there we were; [Laughter] but one of things it did make me realize—it was just a small, little chink in my armor—but it made me realize that I'd been reading the Bible, feeling perfectly justified that I would be the judge of it. I thought about a question—it's back to God's authority—that: “If God, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, used chosen men to write this Bible—and these are truly His God-breathed words, then, who has authority over God?” and, “Why do I feel that I should be the judge of the Bible? What if”—and I just kept it as a logic question. I didn't go there right away: “What if I allowed the Bible to be the judge of me?” It occurred to me that I was truly trying to write a book that understood how evangelical Christians got into this dilemma. It struck me that that is how Ken Smith read the Bible. This may seem so obvious to people—I don't know—millions of Christian listeners thinking, “That was really interesting?” But that was really interesting because, in a post-modern context, authority is— Dennis: Right. Rosaria: —you put it in quotation marks because it only exists because of Oz behind the curtain. It isn't real! So, that's when the question of God's authority entered into my thinking process, as I was reading. It did occur to me because I—obviously, for example—what I am doing on this radio station—I can talk for a really long time [Laughter] and not stop. You guys might have a million questions; and here, it's just like a train wreck; isn't it gentlemen? See, you get to experience it with me! Dennis: No, it's transformation. Rosaria: Well, but it did make me realize that I wanted to judge what God said about homosexuality; but I didn't even want to hear the other side. That did strike me as anti-intellectual. Dennis: You discovered that you're not going to judge God; but in fact, you're ultimately accountable to Him? Rosaria: Well, I didn't discover that right away! See, you are giving me more credit. [Laughter] Dennis: Well, but you are on the road. Bob: You are on the path. Rosaria: I'm on the road. I'm on the road. Dennis: You're on the road, and to that person who identifies with you— Rosaria: That's right. I'm on the road. Dennis: I just want to—I want to read to them the words of Jesus Christ in John, Chapter 5. He said: “Truly, truly, I say to you, ‘Whoever hears my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment but has passed from death to life.” Rosaria: Amen! Dennis: It really is an issue of faith and of belief. And to that person, who is listening to Rosaria and identifies with her journey, maybe, all that's left for you to do is to finally give in to the ultimate Authority. Bob: And that's the point. It's an issue of authority. Who is in charge—you or somebody else? And when you come to that moment— Dennis: And is that somebody else, Jesus Christ? Bob: That's right. When you come to that moment—to go, “If I'm looking around, if it's not me, who is it?”—there is only one person who stands who has authority—all authority in heaven and earth—has been given to Him, according to Matthew, Chapter 28. That's the issue that you had to confront. You write about it so well in the book that you've written. Again, Rosaria's book is called The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert. I want to encourage our listeners to get a copy. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com. You can order a copy from us online. Again, the website, FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. That's our toll-free number, 1-800- “F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then, the word, “TODAY”. We're happy to send a copy of this book out to you. I think you will find it very encouraging. By the way, we are very encouraged by those of you who come alongside this ministry and help support FamilyLife Today. You make programs like this possible through your generous financial support to FamilyLife Today. We're listener-supported. It's your donations that make it possible for us to cover the cost of producing and syndicating this daily radio program. If you can help with a donation, we'd like to say, “Thank you,” by sending you a couple of resources. The first is a CD—a conversation we had with Joanne Kraft about how she put her foot down when life got just too busy at her house. She had what she called “The Radical Sabbatical”. She talks about it in our conversation with her. Then, we'd also like to send you a copy of Tim Kimmel's book, Little House on the Freeway—just to help you calibrate the level of busyness around your house. These two resources are our thank-you gift to you if you can support FamilyLife Today, this month, with a donation of, at least, $25. Again, we want to say, “Thank you,” in advance, for whatever you are able to do in support of this ministry. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the button that says, “I CARE”; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Make your donation over the phone and just ask for “The Busyness Bundle”. We're happy to send that out to you, and we do appreciate your faithful partnership with the ministry of FamilyLife Today. Tomorrow, we will hear the conclusion of the Rosaria Butterfield story and hear how God got her from where she was to where she is. I hope you can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. And on behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I am Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2013 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 1) - Rosaria ButterfieldSecret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 2) - Rosaria ButterfieldSecret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 3) - Rosaria ButterfieldFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. What Is Truth? Guest: Rosaria ButterfieldFrom the series: Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Day 3 of 3) Bob: After meeting a number of times with a local Presbyterian pastor, Rosaria Butterfield—a college professor, a committed feminist, a lesbian—remembers the morning that everything changed for her. Rosaria: One day, I got up; and I got out of bed that I shared with a woman. I brushed my teeth, and I walked the dogs. An hour later, I was sitting in a pew at the Syracuse Reformed Presbyterian Church. I came there to meet God. It was very powerful, sitting under the preaching of God's Word. It was very powerful. The prayer that came out—after that—which really surprised me, “Lord, could you make a woman, like me, a godly woman?” Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, September 18th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We will hear today how God answered Rosaria Butterfield's prayer. Stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. There is a passage in a book I read years ago called A Severe Mercy. The author is a man named Sheldon Vanauken, and he was a skeptic at Oxford University. He started writing letters to one of his professors, C.S. Lewis, asking him questions all about Christianity. He'd get a letter written, and Lewis would respond back to him with an answer. He'd write a new letter and get an answer back. He'd finally written a letter to Lewis one time. The answer that came back was: “I've decided not to answer your questions anymore.” He said: “It's—I'm pretty well convinced that The Hound of Heaven is after you, and it's just a matter of time.” [Laughter] I remember reading that—and I remember Vanauken reading and going—he was a little put off; but then, he got a little worried that, maybe, in fact, it was just a matter of time. [Laughter] And I have to wonder if our guest, this week, has—didn't have something of that same experience in her life. Dennis: Yes. And I've been chased down by The Hound of Heaven, as well. It's good that He's on our trail. Rosaria: Amen. Amen. Dennis: I agree with you. Rosaria Butterfield joins us, again, on FamilyLife Today. Welcome back. Rosaria: Thank you very much. Dennis: She has written a book called The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert. How do you summarize, Bob, what we've talked about— Bob: This week? Dennis: —this week. I mean, Professor of English at Syracuse University and was a part of the women's studies. You were a teacher in the queer studies program. You were a lesbian—had a live-in lover that you were with for a number of years. In the process, she wrote a letter, criticizing a group that came to the Carrier Dome, there at Syracuse University—a group called Promise Keepers. A pastor wrote you back. Long story made short—instead of condemning you, he just started asking you questions that caused you to ponder and reflect, spiritually. And The Hound of Heaven began to get on your trail. Bob: And you found yourself wrestling with whether the Bible is true—whether it's authoritative— Rosaria: That's right. That's right. Bob: —whether your life had to come under the authority of the Scriptures and of the God of the Scriptures. Rosaria: That's right. Bob: But in your case, if you are going to believe this— Rosaria: Right. Oh, yes, yes. Bob: —and if you are going to act like you believe this, it's revolutionary. It's going to leave you with a lot of your old friends who don't want to talk to you anymore and a lot of new friends that you don't know if you want to hang around with. Rosaria: Yes, that's very well-put; right. And so, I did. One day, I got up; and I got out of bed that I shared with a woman. I brushed my teeth, and I walked the dogs. An hour later, I was sitting in a pew at the Syracuse Reformed Presbyterian Church. I came there to meet God, and— Dennis: And when you said you came to meet God, you showed up to surrender. Rosaria: Well, not at first. I mean, I'd love to say that! You see, you make me look good; but that's not true. At first, I was just really curious about sort of the: “What's the next step? Okay, I've read the Bible, now, more than once; and I've studied it. Now, what? Okay, we you go to church. Let's find out what's going on there.” It was very powerful, sitting under the preaching of God's Word. It was very powerful. Then, the prayer that came out after that—which really surprised me. It had nothing to do with my sexuality. It had everything to do with my pride and my gender, “Lord, could you make a woman, like me, a godly woman?” It was really not much of a prayer. It was more of a question, but God answered that question because God can do anything! Right?— you know, “Can these dry bones rise?”—right? Not by their own will—they cannot. Bob: Those two questions, as you sat listening to God's Word being preached—and this is over a period of— Rosaria: Years. Bob: —of years. Rosaria: Of years. Bob: But those two questions kept haunting you to a point where you finally— Rosaria: Right, I did. Bob: —had to throw in the flag and say, “Okay.” Rosaria: “Okay, Lord, I'm yours. I'm yours.” Bob: Tell us about that day. Rosaria: In some ways, it was very anticlimactic because of all the things that had preceded it. I was still kicking up a bit of a fit about: “Oh, poor me. I have to give up so much.” Ken said to me once: “Well, you've got friends in this church. Why don't you ask them what they had to give up to be a Christian?” I thought “Well, okay. Have at it!” I learned the most amazing things. I heard from women who had to bury their children, but not their faith. I heard about people who were struggling with all kinds of other sexual issues—pornography addiction. I mean, it was just everywhere. Everybody was a mess but not really. That was really striking to me. It seemed to me that, maybe, original sin is a comforting idea. See, I started out believing that everybody was good; but that's a hard world view to keep pumping up. But I started to think about it: “Well, what if we were all born this way? Maybe, that's a comforting thing.” Bob: Born in sin. Rosaria: Born in sin—that weighed differently. Everybody has something that's going to take them by the neck. I think that was in the context that I really learned the first rule of repentance. Repentance is not some kind of one-time pledge you do at the moment of conversion. Repentance is a daily posture of the Christian—daily, hourly, minute-by-minute. There is no shame in repentance. It is the kindness of God—it says in the book of Romans—that leads us to repentance. All repentance does—I've figured out—it's really simple! It just proves that God was right all along! That's not new information! Dennis: And that we were broken— Rosaria: And that we were broken. Dennis: —and needed a Redeemer. Rosaria: That's right. And there are a million ways to be broken. Dennis: Oh, yes. Rosaria: But you know what? That's not the point. Bob: When you surrendered, you started on a new path that was very different than the path that you'd been on. Rosaria: It was. It was. Dennis: And she said she lost everything except her dog. Bob: Yes. I mean— Rosaria: He's a good dog, too. [Laughter] Bob: It was the end of your relationship with— Rosaria: Sure, of course. Bob: —your lesbian lover, but it was the beginning of the end of your time at Syracuse. Rosaria: It was. I did not lose my job. I should say that. It's not that I—I don't want to make this out to be that I was victim—but one of the things that I realized, in my repentance—and you know what? I realize this every day, in repentance: “Jesus, it was You I was persecuting the whole time.” So, that puts a certain caution on a person; right? I wasn't really sure what God would have me do. So, it was the end of my time at Syracuse; but at the time, I didn't know it was the end of my time at Syracuse. What it was—was it, at the beginning of my research leave—my post-tenured research leave—and I wanted to study Christian education. I thought: “Okay, Lord, I'm a Christian. Where does a Christian profess—at a secular university or at a Christian college?” So, a very good friend of mine, who is now the President of Geneva College—he was faculty member at Syracuse and Ken Smith's son. His name is also Ken Smith—just to further confuse everyone who is listening. He was able to get me an adjunct position at Geneva College. Then, I also had a teaching position at the Center for Urban Biblical Ministry in Pittsburgh. I pieced together a research program. It was in that context that I met Kent Butterfield, who is now my husband. So, I really never did go back to Syracuse; but that was totally shocking to me. Bob: Did everybody at Geneva College know who was coming to town when you showed up? Rosaria: You know they did, but they were okay with it. Bob: They knew that— Rosaria: They were okay with it. Bob: —the post-feminist, post-lesbian— Rosaria: They sure— Bob: —convert was coming to town. Rosaria: That's right. That's right. Bob: And tell us—because you don't really go into a whole lot of detail about the romance between you and your husband, in the book. Rosaria: I will tell you this—that when you are a sexually-broken person, the most terrifying idea is that you would, then, be a married woman because the fear that I had was that I would pollute or break— Bob: You'd mess everything up. Rosaria: —I'd mess everything up. So, one of the most amazing gifts, in my life, has been Kent and his daily, biblical ministry that repentance of sin is one thing—it's really important! We do it all the time. It's our posture. Dennis: Right. Rosaria: Healing—sexual healing is a separate but related experience. It is fully by the stripes of Christ that we are healed—that when you are a sexually-broken person, your sexuality runs a little bit like water in a groove on a path. If you walk a path over and over again, that path becomes pretty deep. So, when the water floods, it has no place to go but make it almost a river, even. I'm amazed that, over the years, as we meditate and appeal to Christ's balm—because He took those stripes—those grooves in our path get filled up. What they get filled up by is the means of grace. You know, it's intended—God intends to heal us. He intends for His people to be healed. Now, I want to be careful about how I say this. I did not say that He intends for all people who struggle with same-sex attraction to become heterosexual. That is not what I said, and that does not happen. What—I mean, it happens sometimes; but what we know is that we relinquish our life to God, and He gives back what He will. But those grooves that are worn down from sexual sin—and that includes sexual sin of the mind and the emotions—although I will say that acting on your sexual sin makes those grooves deep and dirty really fast much more so. But the layers—the layers that God established to fill that hole, through the means of grace, is a powerful thing. So, by God's grace, I married a Christian! I married someone who became a Christian at the age of 17. He was and has been a godly man for many, many more years than I certainly have been a godly woman. So, he could always—and does. I always tell people that I married a pastor because I need daily, biblical counsel; right? And that's true. But he knows that it's not—Kent is not healing me—and it's not marriage, per se, that's healing me. It's the means of grace. It's Bible reading and Psalm singing. It's the sacraments. It's the fellowship of the saints. And of course, Christ was leading the whole time because sexual sin is predatory. We see that, very early, in the Bible when God says to Cain, “Sin is lurking at your door.” It's Genesis 4: “Its desire is for you, but you will have mastery over it.” I think, too often, people think that: “Oh, you are struggling with pornography. Well, hey, let's just get you married;” right? “Let's find a ‘sanctified outlet' for your sexual desire”—not getting the fact that a predatory sexuality is a totally different desire. So, when I started to examine, “Well, what is the root of my homosexuality?” I did not come up with homosexuality. In the same way, when I go to my garden and I want to know the root of my weeds, I don't come up with the yellow dandelion head. When I really probed what was at the root of my homosexuality, it was pride. It was pride in wanting to invent myself on my own terms. When I married Kent, I became a submitted wife. There's not a lot of pride—not in that—nor is there humiliation in that—but there's a sense of connection and a puzzle piece, now, that suddenly finds its home. Dennis: And could I say it for you? Rosaria: Sure. Dennis: Because you were a feminist— Rosaria: Yes, I was. Dennis: —looking for completion, looking to be all that— Rosaria: That's right. Dennis: —you were made to be in that rightly-related relationship with your husband, both submitting to Jesus Christ— Rosaria: That's right. That's right. Dennis: —you found— Rosaria: That's right; absolutely. Dennis: —you found the completion you longed for, as a feminist. Rosaria: I did, and that really gets us to that question that we haven't really gotten to. And that's the question about: “What do we do now? What if gay marriage becomes normative?” Bob: We're heading in that direction. Dennis: We are; and my question to you is, “Coach us here and help us think, as followers of Christ.” Rosaria: We have to—we have to—we have to realize that well, first of all, we are all called to a sanctified sexuality. That includes our celibate, single members of our churches. They are not second-class citizens. It is shameful, on our part; and I would say it is part of the—perhaps, the potential homophobia of the church when we do that to people. So, I think we need to value a sanctified celibate singleness. But when we talk about marriage, between a man and a woman, we need to talk about it in biblical terms, not moral terms. We can't just say, “The Bible says, ‘Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.'” You know, all that does is take the door and take it off the hinges and then wonder why the door doesn't stand up. The hinge is the Bible; and there are a couple of things that we, as Christians, need to be able to articulately defend. One is that marriage is covenantal. It's a relationship that God establishes with us and guarantees by His Word. God does not make a covenant apart from the separate genders for marriage. So, it is covenantal. We also have to remember that the picture of marriage is Christ and the Church and that the completion factor—and it's the complement factor. It's C-O-M-P-L-E-M-E-N-T. It's not an “I”. We're not talking about trophy wives. We're talking about a man and a woman complementing—fitting together—in order to show the watching world a picture of Christ and the Church. We've likely not done that. Then, the other—and I know this is a controversial topic—not that we haven't talked about controversy, gentlemen. Bob: So, what's new; right? Dennis: Yes. Rosaria: So, what's new? But I think if you do not have historical Adam, if you do not have literal six-day creation, if you do not have Adam—made from the dust and then, Eve made from a rib of Adam—you have no biblical basis for a woman's submission to man. You have mutual submission. So, I think we've got to go back to the basics. I think we need to find a biblical defense for these things and I think that we need to stop fearing that people are going to call us stupid because that's what I did and look where I am; right? [Laughter] Dennis: Yes, and also, being afraid of being called a bigot as though you hate. Rosaria: Right—and we're getting there. We're getting there because I would absolutely say that to fail to defend homosexual marriage—that is the contemporary unforgiveable sin— Bob: It is. Rosaria: —in our culture. So, I think we are getting there; but again— Dennis: But we have to defend marriage with love. Rosaria: With love. So, that raises the question: “What do I do with my gay or lesbian daughter? And how do I interface with this person I love?” Let's just give a scenario. She was raised in the church. She made a profession of faith. “Now, she's lost to me. What do I do?” Those are really good questions. What you do is—you love your child. You love your child. Now, you do have to be careful, though, about this business about attending gay weddings. I mean, I think you can love someone without giving a false blessing because—think about it—you want to be there on the other side. You want to be able to be there, standing with a unified Christian witness; but you can still love. You can still enjoy your holidays together and be in each other's lives. Dennis: And they won't view it as a rejection that you didn't come to the wedding? Rosaria: Well, they may—they may—but we talked earlier about, “Where do you draw the line?” You know, you want to draw it carefully; and I can't tell you what to do. You know your family, and you know what to do. I'm just saying that because—“How do we defend marriage?” Well, one way that we defend marriage is to make sure that we are speaking in a unified voice about it. That's a hard one. I know. Dennis: It is a hard one—especially, if it was your daughter— Rosaria: Yes, absolutely! Absolutely, and so— Dennis: —marrying another woman and you drew the line and said, “Sweetheart, I want you to know I will love you to the end, but I will not bless this union because it doesn't represent what God commanded a man and a woman to merge together in a covenant with God.” Rosaria: Right. “But I'm not cutting you out.” Dennis: Yes. Rosaria: “I want you and your partner here for Christmas, and Thanksgiving, and”— Dennis: You know, there is a lot more we could talk about here; and Rosaria, I want to say, “Thanks for your book,”—how—this kind of sounds funny, coming from somebody who got a spanking in the eighth-grade English class—but how well-written it is and how entertaining—but also just allow us to peek into your life and to hear what transformation sounds like and what was going on in your soul, at the same time. There is a lot in this book that I'd recommend. I just want to say, “Thanks for being on our broadcast and hope you'll come back again someday.” Rosaria: Thank you. Bob: Well, I hope our listeners will get a copy and will read Rosaria's book. I think it's one of the best books I've read this year. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com for a copy of the book, The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert. You can order, online, if you'd like. Again, the website, FamilyLifeToday.com; or call us, toll-free, at 1-800-FL-TODAY, 1-800-358-6329. That's 1-800- “F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then, the word, “TODAY”. Now, I want to say a special word of thanks to the folks who have made today's program possible—and that would be those of you who help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today. We are listener-supported. It's our Legacy Partners who provide monthly support for this ministry; and it is those of you, who get in touch with us from time to time, to make a donation. 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Click the button that says, “I CARE”, to make an online donation; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Make your donation over the phone, and ask about the “Busyness Bundle”. We'll send out these resources, designed to help you get a grip on the speed of life at which you are travelling. You can also mail your donation to FamilyLife Today. Our mailing address is Box 7111, Little Rock, Arkansas. And our zip code is 72223. Be sure to ask for the “Busyness Bundle” when you send your donation. And we hope you can join us back again tomorrow when we are going to tackle the question: “Do Christians have it wrong with our view of human sexuality?” Is what the Bible teaches just some antiquated idea for a bygone generation or is it something that ought to govern our behavior today?” We'll talk more about that tomorrow, and I hope you can tune in. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. 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Rebuilding a Marriage Better Than New (Part 1) - Chris and Cindy BeallRebuilding a Marriage Better Than New (Part 2) - Chris and Cindy BeallRebuilding a Marriage Better Than New (Part 3) - Chris and Cindy BeallFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Embracing Hope Guest: Chris and Cindy Beall From the series: Rebuilding a Marriage Better Than New Bob: Rebuilding a broken marriage is not a simple process; it's not a painless process. But Chris Beall—who is doing it—says it is a worthwhile process to go through. Chris: You're walking through a betrayal—you don't know the where to go. The best thing you can do for other people is not tell a story but live a story. It's not time for you to focus on helping other people. Every day you're going to choose to forgive the other person, you are writing a sentence in a paragraph of a story that years from now will be worth telling—and we do that by submitting to God at every moment of this process of healing. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, August 30th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. If there has been damage done to your marriage, there is a path forward—and it's a path worth walking. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I sent out a tweet a while back and I got a response to it. I'm thinking maybe our guests could help—knowing how I should respond to the response. The tweet I sent out said—it was from when Gary Thomas was here and we were talking about cherishing and what it means to cherish one another in marriage. I said, “Cherishing another person means I'm going to look out for your interests as more important than my own.” The tweet I got back was from somebody who said, “How do you get there with a lying, betraying husband who has no idea what passion or intimacy is?” I don't know how to answer that in 140 characters—I don't think you can answer that in 140 characters—but it's a very real issue for a lot of people thinking, “How do I fulfill my vows? How do I love and trust and cherish another person when they are a lying, betraying individual?” 2:00 Dennis: That really is a good question—and I'm glad we have the guests that we have on FamilyLife Today. Bob: So we're off the hook! Dennis: Chris— Bob: So, we'll let them answer it! Dennis: Chris and Cindy Beall join us again on the broadcast. Welcome back. Chris and Cindy: Thank you! Dennis: Chris is a pastor at Life Church in Oklahoma City. Cindy is an author of a book called, Rebuilding a Marriage Better Than New—and Cindy, you're the expert on this because this is what you've done. Cindy: One of the things that people often say is, “Well, I'm going to do this to them because they are doing this to me”—so through revenge they are getting back at someone. I believe that when we get back at someone, the first person that we're hurting is God. If Chris sins against me and then I then turn around and say, “I'm going to go cheat on him.” I've wounded the heart of God first—I have broken covenant with Him first—and then I might hurt my husband. For me, I would say to that woman—or to anyone—you've got to do the right thing regardless of someone else's actions. 3:00 That's it. Someone else's sinful life does not give me the right to sin against my God. That's where I lived. It's not easy. It's very challenging, and I can't say I did it 100% perfect all the time—but I don't want to break my God's heart—I don't want to do that. Bob: You've had the opportunity, over that last half dozen years, to sit down with lots of couples who have gone through what you lived through. What you lived through was years of your husband looking at pornography—ultimately that lead to affairs outside of marriage—he fathered a son. You didn't know any of this. He finally comes clean. You have to decide—“Am I going to stay with him? Am I going to try to rebuild this marriage? Can I ever trust him again?”—all of these things facing you. When you sit down with these couples today, they are at a place that you were at, where there is a road in front of them. 4:00 You can pick one path and that's a path that can feel like it will cause the pain to stop right away—or you can pick the other path which feels like this is going to take me right into the pain. What kind of hope do you give them and how do you point them in a God-ward direction? Cindy: The first thing, I think— just the fact that maybe it's the four of us—maybe it's a couple and Chris and me. I think the fact just seeing us brings them some hope—just the fact that we've lived through it. So when I'm faced with that question a lot of women will say, “What should I do?” Honestly, I cannot make that decision for them. I tell them, “You don't you have to decide the rest of your life today.” I steal that little phrase from my friend Kevin. 5:00 But I also just encourage them, “Look, whatever path you take is going to hurt. Where is God leading you? Let the peace of God be your guide.” If you've got a spouse that is willing to do whatever it takes—you're willing to lay your life down and rebuild this. Consider this path. If you've got a spouse that's still with someone else, or is acting like all this is your fault. Then you might have to play some hardball there, and show some tough love. Dennis: I'm just thinking of the command in Genesis 2, that says, “for this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, shall cleave to one another, and the two shall become one.” If you had not made a covenant between three—a man, and a woman, and their God—there's no way this marriage would be standing today. Chris: Right! Dennis: There wouldn't be a title of a book, Rebuilding a Marriage Better—Better!— Than New. Chris: Right. Dennis: The covenant of Almighty God gave you the standard to make this work. 6:00 Chris: Right. One thing that we experienced several years back—I'll set the scenario, but it's super-relevant—almost four years ago, our house burned down. We are going through this process of, “Okay we've lost everything, we have to rebuild. We've got to replace everything.” Our insurance company—that was amazing, I will tell you—they said, “We're going to pay to rebuild your house, but we don't think your foundation is damaged, so we're not going to pay to replace it.” In our office when we meet with couples—we see this every day—there's some huge catastrophe in their marriage and they want a new house but they are unwilling to replace the old foundation. So how do we communicate? There are behaviors that we've got to go past the foundation and create a new normal. Dennis: What you're saying is, it's not a matter of slapping a new coat of paint— Chris: Right. Dennis: —on a house that is rotting. Chris: Right. Dennis: But you've got to start with the right foundation. 7:00 I just have to say here, this is why the Weekend to Remember® marriage getaway is so important for couples. I was driven to the airport by a guy whose son and a young lady are getting ready to get married. I told him and I said, “Give your son and your future daughter-in-law the very best wedding gift they will ever receive because it will help them turn their marriage license into a marriage—into a real marriage—” Chris: Right! Dennis: “—into one that is built on the right foundation.” It's very practical—talking about how two imperfect people—from the start—can build a single structure—together—off the same set of blueprints. Give them the conference, the Weekend to Remember marriage getaway as a gift—it will pay off for decades. The guy nodded his head and said, “You know, I'm going to talk to my wife about that tonight because we want their marriage to go the distance.” 8:00 Bob: There's information about the Weekend to Remember online at FamilyLifeToday.com if our listeners are interested. If you have not been—you really ought to check it out. Dennis: And it's not just for engaged couples. Bob: No, and that's right! It's always good to take the marriage in for a little preventive maintenance; right? Dennis: We had a couple recently attend who'd been married 60 years. Bob: Yes. Dennis: They felt it was time for an oil change and a tune-up. There you go!! Bob: I think one of the things that you two have learned in the rebuilding process of your marriage is that as you've invested in other peoples' marriages—God has used that to strengthen the bond between the two of you; right? —Talk about that. Cindy: It is the best part of our story that when we share with others—when we help them with the same help that was given to us—2 Corinthians 1:3-4—when we do that—it's like we heal more. 9:00 Like with each couple we visit with—with each woman I talk with on the phone, or have a FaceTime conversation or meet for coffee—with each conversation, God is redeeming that marriage bit by bit. What's funny is I love our marriage where it is. We're best friends! We're very healthy—that's the word I use to describe our marriage—very healthy. Not “perfect”, not “good”, not “great”—healthy and strong. What's fun is that it's getting better, because we're going to invest—we are going to continue to steward our story and share and help others so it's just going to get better. Chris: I'd say for—say for any listener that's in the early stages of just trying to figure out—you're walking through a betrayal, you don't know where to go—the best thing you can do for other people, is not tell a story—but live a story. It's not time for you to focus on helping other people. 10:00 Every day that you walk through a trigger that hits you or you're going to choose to forgive the other person, you're writing a sentence in a paragraph of a story that years from now will be worth telling. You don't need to be focused on telling your story but you need to be focused on writing that story. We do that by submitting to God in every moment of this process of healing. Bob: I agree with you—I do think though there are some couples who think, “Well, we could never try to reach out and help others because our marriage isn't perfect.” Chris: Right. Bob: That leaves a lot of people never reaching out and helping anybody— Chris: Right. Bob: —because our marriages are never perfect. At what level of health—where do you need to get to health-wise before you can start to say, “I think maybe we can speak into somebody else's life?” Chris: Early on it wasn't us looking for people to help it was people coming to us. If we felt like we were at least one step ahead of them— Dennis: There you go! Chris: Here we go! Let's go! We can offer you—here's what we're doing, we're on the road too—we're not experts. In these latter days it's been much more where we're looking to pro-actively help people. 11:00 But for the most part of this 15 years, people would come to us, “Hey, I heard you're going through this”—if we really felt like that was a step ahead. That pretty much pertains to every person listening to this—you are a step ahead of someone. Cindy: Someone. Bob: That's right—and somebody is a step ahead of you. Chris: Correct. Bob: If you can be in a cycle where you're learning from those who are a step ahead of you and you are helping those who are a step behind you. That's how the church is supposed to work—that's what this is supposed to look like; right? Chris: Absolutely! Pauls and Timothys! We each have somebody pouring into us and we each have people that we are pouring into—absolutely! Dennis: You had somebody who invested in you in the early months after the bombshell went off in your marriage. Cindy: Yes, Jim and Beth Kuykendall—we cannot speak more highly of them. There are not enough words in the dictionary to talk about how amazing they are. Without their input we would just have been a hot mess. 12:00 Chris: Jim and Beth—for the first 30 days—every night—were sitting on our living room floor. There was just this invasive commitment to—“We're going to do life together”—and, “As you guys face things—just today—we're going to process them and speak of life over you—we're going to go to God's word, every single night.” That may not be realistic for everyone, but that had such a huge impact—not just in the counsel that they gave, but just the relational presence—knowing that they had walked through a similar story. We have a physical example of hope sitting right in front of us on our couch. Bob: Chris—I have to ask because it's been 15 years now since the story was told. Prior to that time you had been ensnared with pornography and where that led you—the temptation can't have just gone completely away. Over the last 15 years to where you go, yes, you know, I've felt that for a long time and I just never feel it anymore. Chris: I'm all good! I'm fixed! 13:00 Bob: So what's the difference between the temptation today and what it used to be? Chris: How I would answer that is that I am free—but I am not fixed. I'm a human being, I'm imperfect—I have a sin nature just like everyone else. So I am free. I am not a slave to this sin and I haven't been for 15 years—but I am tempted just like everyone else. I‘ll give you an example. I have learned to see the temptations and respond a little bit more quickly to them. In fact, it wasn't all that long ago, that a young lady that came up to me—a precious young lady—attractive. “Pastor Chris, you've changed my life. I think you could really help me sort through some things in my life.” In that moment, I've got a little bit of warning signs going off—so I called Cindy. “Hey, this just happened to me.” Then I brought my staff—my entire team—I said, “Hey, I want you to keep your eyes on me. If there is anything that you ever see that seems off—intercept it.” 14:00 It wasn't even like an inappropriate conversation on behalf of this girl—it was completely innocent—but it was like just maybe the beginning seed of a temptation that the moment I acknowledged it—and had a conversation with Cindy and my team—it was gone. So I do my best to kind of predict, “Where is the enemy going to come after me?” I am just going to be overly honest when those temptations come. Keeping it in the dark is like a Petri dish for sin to grow. The moment we bring it into the light I just think that is where the power of healing happens. We do have a spiritual enemy! I believe that in those moments—“I can't, I don't have it in there, I‘m going to have to find a different avenue.” Dennis: I believe it's in Genesis chapter 4 where it talks about sin— Chris: Crouching. Bob: Crouching at your door? Dennis: Crouching at your door. Chapter 4:7. What I just want every listener—male and female—to know—it may not be pornography. 15:00 I don't know what it is—what your Achilles heel is—but I can promise you—in fact, yesterday when I stepped out of my house, I thought, “I'm stepping out of a safe place.” Not that there isn't sin able to get its way into our house—there is—but I'm stepping into the world where there is a spiritual battle occurring. We don't see what's taking place. Interestingly a friend sent me a link—and I don't know what my friend was really thinking but I clicked on it and it didn't take long to realize, “This is not a good place to be.” I clicked off and went away. I still think I owe my friend an email back to say, “Why did you send that to me?” By the way, there's a lot of stuff flipped around on the internet and posted in all kinds of places—just be wise. 16:00 You may be throwing something to someone and it may be his or her Achilles heel—spiritually speaking. Chris: The spirit and the flesh—the Bible says—are at war for what is going to be dominant in their lives. The Holy Spirit wants to be that which propels us and leads every part of our lives—but if the things that we're feeding our mind and our time are the things of the flesh—we're going to be dominated by the flesh. We just have to be very aware that the more we can starve our flesh and feed the things that the Spirit in us craves, those temptations will minimize. They don't go away—but they will minimize. Bob: Most of us are way too casual in our daily battle with sin. Chris: Agreed. Bob: We walk around like there is not a war going on—we walk around like we're in complete safety—and we get ambushed when we do that. Chris: Right. Bob: As opposed to walking around with the alert system on—your alert system that goes— 17:00 “Okay—this is just a seed here—but a seed can grow into something if I don't deal with it right now.” Dennis: I want to encourage our listeners—every listener who is a follower of Jesus Christ is an ambassador—an ambassador you have a message and a mission. I want to read to you a little bit of your mission and message found in Isaiah 61. If you haven't read the first eight to ten verses of this passage of Scripture you ought to read it because I've thought of this all week as we've interviewed you two—how you guys are really like something that's described in here—I'll get to that in a moment. Here's what it says about our message and our mission: “The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the LORD has anointed me to bring good news to the poor; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, — 18:00 to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound; and to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor—” It goes on to talk about some other matters and then it says: “that they may be called”—and this is what I thought of you two—“oaks of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified. They shall build up the ancient ruins; they shall raise up the former devastations; they shall repair the ruined cities,”—listen to this last phrase—“the devastations of many generations.” Chris: Wow! Dennis: You two are oaks of righteousness—you are providing shade for couples who've gone through the valley and they're in need of someone saying, “You can do it!” 19:00 Chris: Wow! Dennis: The church is there. We will come along side you, we will pray for you, we will minister to you and future generations are at stake. Bob: Tell our listeners about the dinner you had not long ago with somebody who had found Chris and Cindy's story online along with other stories that they've heard on FamilyLife Today—and how God had used that in his life. Dennis: This is a person who been through dark days in his marriage. He became a super sleuth on FamilyLife Today. He went in search of every story of redemption and reconciliation that he could find and he found yours. He said, “I was hopeless but I listened and I listened and I listened.” For three and a half years he battled for his marriage. Chris: Wow! 20:00 Dennis: I asked him—I said, “If I went to your wife right now and asked her what your marriage was like on a ten point scale what would she say?” He said, “A ten!” What about you? A ten! And he's not saying it's perfect, but he's just saying where sin abounds, grace and forgiveness much more. That is the gospel of Jesus Christ. Nobody listening to us here is beyond the reach of God's arm to welcome you in to the family and forgive your sin. There's nothing you have done that you can earn God's favor—nor nothing you can do to cause Him to flee from you. You just need to receive Jesus Christ as your Lord, Master, and Savior and then get on with the process— Chris: Amen. Dennis: —of becoming God's man—God's woman, and if you're married—God's couple. Then leave a godly legacy to future generations which you guys have done. 21:00 And I just have to tell you again. I'm really proud of you for not quitting—for still standing—and for using your wounds to proclaim who Christ is. Way to go! Cindy: Thank you! Chris: God is good! Bob: I can imagine there are folks listening who have been thinking—as they've heard you share your story—about a couple they know facing a similar situation—where there's been infidelity, betrayal, where trust has been broken. I‘d encourage them not only to send their friends a link to the conversations we've had here this week, but also send them a copy of the book, Rebuilding A Marriage Better Than New—where you share with folks what you've done and how God's worked in your marriage to bring it to where it is today. We've got copies of the book, Rebuilding A Marriage Better Than New in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can go online to order your copy. Our website is FamilyLifeToday.com. 22:00 You can also order by phone. Our number is 1-800-FL-TODAY. So again. the website— FamilyLifeToday.com. The phone number is 1-800-FL-TODAY. Ask about the book, Rebuilding A Marriage Better Than New by Cindy Beall when you get in touch with us. And, if you're online be sure to watch the video clip that features Chris and Cindy sharing their story. Maybe you'd want to forward that to your friends as well. Again the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. As summer is coming to an end, the month of August is almost over and that means we're in the home stretch for the matching gift opportunity that we've been telling you about all month long. We had a friend of the ministry come to us back at the beginning of the month. He offered to match every donation we receive during the month of August on a dollar for dollar basis. He put a cap on that at $800,000. We're in the home stretch to try to make sure that we're able to take full advantage of those matching gift funds. 23:00 If we are, it will allow us to extend the reach of all that we're doing here at FamilyLife in the months ahead. Help us reach more young married couples, more moms and dads, more people worldwide with practical, biblical help and hope for your marriage and your family. In fact, we did some calculating not long ago and just with this radio program—if you're able to donate $8.24—we can get the program in the ears of 1000 people. Of course, when you make that donation we'll get another $8.24 from the matching gift fund—another 1000 people. So it's just a great opportunity, but it's got an expiration date—and that is tomorrow. We're asking you today to donate online at FamilyLifeToday.com or call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. Or you can mail your donation and—as long as it's postmarked today or tomorrow—it will still qualify for matching funds. 24:00 Our mailing address is: FamilyLife Today, P.O. Box 7111 Little Rock, Arkansas. Our zip code is 72223. And again, please pray that we will receive enough donations to be able to take full advantage of this matching gift. I hope you can join us back tomorrow. We're going to talk about the power of decisions that we make—and how some decisions can be life altering. We'll talk more about that tomorrow. Hope you can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today; his name is Keith Lynch, also our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. A Cru® ministry.Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
Messy Grace (Part 1) - Kaleb KaltenbachMessy Grace (Part 2) - Kaleb KaltenbachMessy Grace (Part 3) - Kaleb KaltenbachFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Embracing the Truth Guest: Caleb Kaltenbach From the series: Messy Grace (Day 2 of 3) Bob: How ought we live, as followers of Jesus, in a culture that is moving away from a biblical foundation for life? Caleb Kaltenbach says Jesus demonstrated what life looks like, full of grace and truth. Caleb: I think another way to say it is that there is a big difference between acceptance and approval. I think that we have to understand that, not just with the LGBT community, but we are moving into a culture where people go with whatever they want to do. There are going to be new things that come out that just really scare Christians, and we don't know how to handle it. We think: “Okay; do I keep my relationship with this person? Do I not?” It's not just the LGBT issue; there are so many issues that are going to come down the pipeline. We have to understand that we are missionaries, and there is a difference between acceptance and approval; and there's a tension between grace and truth. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, July 3rd. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. 1:00 If you've found that life is getting harder to navigate, as a follower of Christ, we'll see if we can help with some directions today. Stay with us. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. You know, years ago, there was a lot of controversy around a children's book that had found its way into libraries. I think it was called Heather Has Two Mommies. It was a children's book designed to provide a picture of normalization for a child who might be growing up in a household where there were two mommies or two daddies, trying to present that as maybe a new normal. We have somebody with us today for whom that was the normal, growing up in a home with two mommies part of the time and with a bachelor dad the other part of the time. Dennis: Yes; and Caleb, I just want to say, “Thanks for being on our broadcast and sharing your story.” 2:00 Caleb Kaltenbach joins us again on FamilyLife Today. Caleb, welcome back. Caleb: It's great to be back. Dennis: He's written a book called Messy Grace: How a Pastor with Gay Parents Learned to Love Others Without Sacrificing Conviction. The reason I just appreciate you being on the show, talking about this, is I think there are a lot of people, like me, who may not have a lot of gay friends; or if we do, we don't know it. We need coaching / we need understanding. We need someone to take us near and begin the journey for us. I feel like your book did that for me. I really liked being able to peer into your family, where you were raised by two moms and your dad, who later came out as a homosexual as well. You were raised in the midst of no faith / no Christian worldview. I think we're clueless! 3:00 Really, the Christian community's not really wise about who our audience is, and where they are, and where they aren't. Caleb: No; absolutely. I think that we have come to a point in our nation where we have to realize that we are the away team. We are not the home team anymore. We realize that more than ever at our church. We firmly believe in the inerrancy of Scripture / we believe in God's sovereignty—we believe in all these things—but we're all very intentional in being missionaries in our context / missionaries in Southern California and understanding, as we talked about earlier, that not everybody is at the same point in the spiritual journey. We just surveyed our church three weeks ago and found out that 42 percent of our attendants, on any given Sunday, is unchurched—meaning that we're the first church they've been to or they haven't been since they were a kid—because we're so intentional about going after the lost sheep that Jesus talks about in Luke 15:1-7. But we do that without compromising the gospel and the message; because we have to learn where we are, and we have to understand— 4:00 —I think, specifically with this issue, or any other issue that we're dealing with—that there's a huge tension between grace and truth. I think another way to say it is that there is a big difference between acceptance and approval. I think that we have to understand that, not just with the LGBT community, but we are moving into a culture where people go with whatever they want to do. There are going to be new things that come out that just really scare Christians, and we don't know how to handle it. We think: “Okay; do I keep my relationship with this person? Do I not?” It's not just the LGBT issue; there are so many issues that are going to come down the pipeline. We have to understand that we are missionaries, and there is a difference between acceptance and approval; and there is a tension between grace and truth. Bob: You've already shared with us that your impression of Christians, growing up, was that they were bigoted/hateful. When you were with your mom, Christians would mock, and would shout, and would be hateful toward your mom. 5:00 Less so with your dad, because he wasn't out of the closet at this point; but your dominant thought was, “Christians are just not worth much.” You wound up at a Bible study in high school, and you went into that Bible study with the intent of wanting to undermine everything that was being taught there. Over time, something shifted in your heart and your thinking. Caleb: Yes; because I saw that Jesus was not representative of how people on the street corners were acting. I think today we would say Jesus is not representative of how some Christians act on Facebook®, social media, or Twitter®, Snapchat, Periscope, or whatever—that Jesus is not reflective of that. When I think about the people who are on the street corners, I think to myself, “What about what Paul said in Romans 2:4, when he says, ‘Don't you know that it is the kindness of God that leads to repentance?' What about what Paul said in Romans 12:18: ‘Live at peace with everyone'?” That doesn't mean that we agree with everybody, but that means that we're not going to belittle people. 6:00 What about what Jesus said in Matthew 5:43-48?—you know: “…love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you”—and by the way—“if you only love those who love you, what reward are you going to get?” I look at the people on the street corners, and really, in my life too—for me, messy grace is ultra-legalistic, fundamentalist Christians. You know, that's my version of messy grace that I have to love and be mindful about. Am I exemplifying what Paul says in Romans 2 and 12? Am I exemplifying what Jesus says: “If you only love those who love you, what reward will you get?” Dennis: I'm glad I had a man in my life who called me to love / he called me to truth too; but he said: “The preeminence of love—it is the banner of being a disciple of Jesus Christ. Yes; we do stand for the truth.” I'll tell you why that was important in my life, Caleb. You can comment on this, because you've undoubtedly run into quite a few guys like me. I think I, like a lot of other Christians, have a high need to be right. I don't think we have a high need to make sure we're loving. 7:00 That, for me, has helped me move from pressing the point of the gospel—which is the truth / it is right—but it's pressed me back to going, “How do I show love to other people who are broken?” We're all broken—not just them—I am too. I think, for the most part, we in the Christian community really don't know how to love people who aren't like us, and who don't love us, and who don't think like us and believe like us. Caleb: I think the reason is that it is much easier to make a point / it is much harder to love somebody. When you make a point, you can be right. The woman caught in adultery in John, Chapter 8—and the Pharisees and the teachers of the Law, who placed her before Jesus after humiliating her, they did not care about her life—restoring her/reconciliation. They were willing for her to die for them to be right. In other words, they believed that their theological conviction was a catalyst to allow them to mistreat other people. 8:00 Our theological convictions must never be catalysts to mistreat others. If anything, our theology should drive us to love people and treat them well. I think about Jesus, and here's what Jesus did—here's what Jesus did—Jesus called the disciples into a discipleship relationship before they even believed He was the Son of God. I'm willing to bet—I don't know, but I'm willing to bet—that Matthew was not a good synagogue-going boy, in Matthew 9; and yet Jesus still looked at him, despite all that, and said: “Hey, you're coming with Me. Follow Me. I want you to be a part of what I'm doing.” Jesus regularly spent time with people, and here's where I think He models the difference between acceptance and approval. Jesus loved people where they were / Jesus loved them for who they were, but Jesus was not content to leave them where they were. He said, “God has something greater embedded in you that only His sovereignty can bring out.” I think about that and I think to myself: “We need to do the same thing. 9:00 “We have to love people where they're at.” That doesn't mean we approve of every life choice that somebody makes. Dennis: Right; right. Bob: You began to get a picture of who the real Jesus was as you were going to this Bible study in high school; but it had to dawn on you pretty quickly that, if this was true and if you were going to buy into this idea that the Jesus presented in the Bible is who He says He is—that He's God / that Christianity is true—that's going to put you at odds with your mom, with your dad, with your mom's partner. This is going to turn your whole world upside down. Caleb: Absolutely. I spent so much time studying what the Bible had to say about marriage relationships, gender, sexuality, intimacy—everything. I came to this conclusion, the one that I still hold today, that God designed sexual intimacy for the expression in marriage between one man and one woman—I believe that today. I believe anything outside of that is a sin. 10:00 That it is between a man and a woman in marriage—that's what God designed intimacy for. Now, I also believe, to reinforce what I said earlier, that our biblical beliefs should not allow us to berate anyone. Our biblical beliefs should build us up to the point, where we are willing to love people; because the more that we love God, He gives us margin to love people who seem to be unlovable to us. I think the real mark of Christian maturity is: “How well can you love those whom you disagree with, don't like / don't like you, are difficult, or are just plain different than you are?” Bob: I'm trying to imagine you coming to this conclusion / this understanding of what the Bible has to say about gender, and marriage, and sexuality, and going back to your mom and having the conversation—or to your dad—and saying, “You know, I've come to believe something different.” Caleb: Imagine how a young teenager, who is gay or same-sex attracted, feels when they come out to their conservative Christian parents. 11:00 I was a 16-year-old teenager coming out as a Christian to my three gay parents. You would expect love and tolerance; because that's what my mother, and her partner, and my dad, in his own way, always preached. But I got the opposite—they kicked me out. I went back, eventually, kind of slowly built up that relationship. Again, I realized that the more I loved God, the more margin He gave me to love people who were difficult in my life—I had to forgive. Bob: That love was tested; because as you attended the Bible study, you decided to go to church. You went to your dad's church, and that turned out to be a bit of a surprise to you as well. Caleb: Yes; I went to my dad's church and—you know, I'd gone off and on. They really didn't teach the Bible. Then I got invited by a friend of mine, who was a Christian, and his dad was a pastor at a church. I got invited to go to his church. I went, and I found Jesus was preached and talked about much differently. 12:00 I found a group of individuals who firmly believed what Jesus said and what Scripture claimed, but also believed that that should never compromise our love for other people. We can't compromise conviction or love whatsoever. I remember being in this group and seeing them and thinking to myself, “This is something I could get onboard with.” God just began to develop in me this passion to be able to tell people about the Jesus I discovered. Bob: I want you to take me, if you can / if you remember it, to the first conversation you had with your mom or with your dad, where you said, “I've started to change my thinking.” Caleb: My dad told me that I had spit in the eyes of God, because he had me baptized Episcopalian/Anglican when I was a kid/baby. I remember, when I told him, he was so reactionary and angry. I didn't understand why then. I know now—because he was in the closet, and he was hiding it. 13:00 When I told my mom, on the other hand—I mean, my mom—I love her to death; but drama, drama, drama. My mom—we were driving from Concordia, Missouri—that's where my parents would meet / in Concordia, Missouri, at McDonald's® in between Columbia and Kansas City—my dad dropped me off and looked at my mom and said: “Well, good luck, Mary Lou. You're going to love this.” I got in and I told my mom. She started crying—just crying, crying, crying. My mom, when we got home, went in; and I stayed in the car, because I didn't want to go in yet. I waited about 15 minutes, and she told Vera by then. As I said, Vera didn't get along with me / I didn't get along with her. She was a PhD psychologist, who had a very liberal view, not only on psychology but on everything. I sat down; and I remember she asked me, “So you're a Christian now, Caleb?” I said, “Yes.” 14:00 It was just very contentious—again, to the point where my mom said, “Hey, you're not going to come back for a while,”—basically kicked me out. My dad had told me the same thing at his house, and it was very difficult. Bob: So you called friends and said, “Can I crash at your house?” Caleb: Yes! Dennis: You were 16? Caleb: Yes. Dennis: Not long after that, someone invited you to a Youth for Christ conference? Caleb: Youth for Christ, also known as CIY, Christ in Youth. It was a great conference, but I had never been to a Christian conference. It was so great being with other high schoolers, who were my own age, and getting to know them. I remember, again, one morning, I woke up and I just couldn't imagine myself doing anything else other than telling other people about this Jesus whom I had learned about. I mean, I figured I had lived 16 years of my life away from Jesus / I want to spend the rest of my life telling other people about Jesus and saying, again: “He's not like the people on the street corners!” A week to the day that I was baptized, I said, “I want to give my life to full-time Christian vocational ministry.” Bob: A week after you were baptized? Caleb: Yes. 15:00 Bob: Okay; there are folks, who are listening, who are going: “Well, there's a pattern here. I mean, this guy grows up and he has two moms. One of them doesn't like him and doesn't like men in general, and his dad's in the closet. He's just looking for a way out of the trauma that he's been in for 16 years. He's easy pickings for this kind of stuff.” Caleb: But it wasn't trauma for me. I didn't want people to know about my mom. Dennis: It was your normal. Caleb: It was my normal! Absolutely! I knew—it was different enough, where I didn't want to broadcast it in the school—but in no way, shape, or form was I walking around saying, “Woe is me.” I'll be honest—my mom and her friends were fun. They were fun people to be around! There were some things that I saw that I shouldn't have seen; but back in my day, when I would go to somebody's house for a house party with my mom, I would take my Atari®, or Commodore 64, or Nintendo® / original Nintendo Duck Hunt™, and I would go find a room. 16:00 I still saw things that were inappropriate, but I did not have this—at that point—this scarred idea of my life. It wasn't until after I saw Jesus, and how He set things up, and how He originally created things to be until Adam and Eve rebelled / until sin entered the world, that I realized, at that point: “This was not right. This is not how God designed—this is not God's best. You cannot have a reflection of Christ's relationship with the church in any relationship other than a heterosexual relationship.” I mean, I realized so many things. And if there's ever—listen, if there's ever anybody who wanted to disprove, you know, what the Bible said about sexuality, it was me! I mean, even after I changed my view on sexuality, if somebody brought up a new idea, I would still look at it; because my relationship with my parents was damaged. Why would I go from an environment where I had absolute peace with my parents to now an environment where there was chaos? 17:00 Bob: Let me ask you about that; because in the last five years, there have been books published presenting an evangelical view that maybe we've misunderstood all the texts that you were reading in high school. They say it's possible to be gay and to believe the Bible and to love Jesus. You've seen those books. You've read those books; right? Caleb: Oh, absolutely. Here's what these books do—they have no exegetical or historical ground to stand on. They have to do fancy exegetical footwork / they have to do fancy footwork with a background narrative and the backgrounds of the New Testament, especially with Romans 1 and so on and so forth. They have to do an argument of silence, where they say something like, “Hey, Jesus never said anything about same-sex relationships, so that makes it okay.” Well, there are a lot of things that Jesus didn't say anything about, so “Let me get my list ready,”—you can't make that argument. I remember, after I came to Christ, having a conversation with a lady who was a dean at a liberal seminary in Kansas City. 18:00 My mom “sicced” her on me at one of her GLAD events. I still went with my mom when I was a high schooler / when I was a Christian, because I wanted an opportunity to tell people about Jesus in different conversations. She [the dean] automatically started challenging me. It really came down to the fact, where she said: “Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. So that makes it okay.” Now, we look at it—and you can even get very academic if you want—and say: “Well, Jesus was sent to Israel. In Israel, under a Pharisaical rule, they did not deal with homosexuality like Paul did when he was sent to the Gentiles / to the Roman Empire.” That's another whole ball of wax. If you really want to get exegetical, let's look at Matthew 19, when Jesus has an opportunity to define marriage as anything other than a man and a woman; and does he? No; He affirms what God says in Genesis 2. 19:00 Dennis: So, here you are. You're this on-fire 16-year-old, who now has been baptized. You've been to a conference and surrendered to God's call on your life to move into full-time Christian ministry. I can only imagine—when you went back to Columbia— Bob: Yes—how that news went; yes. Dennis: —and back to where your two moms lived in Kansas City, how did those conversations go down? Caleb: Well, it went down just about like a lead balloon would. Have you ever ridden a lead balloon before? Bob: Just crashed. Caleb: It crashed. It wouldn't get up off the air. I mean, I had committed the unpardonable sin; right? Bob: Becoming a Christian's one thing / now, saying, “I want to be a pastor.” Dennis: “I'm all in.” Caleb: Well, and you throw on top of that, “Hey, I've changed my view of sexuality.” Bob: Right. Caleb: You know—I mean, now I'm one of them in their eyes. The people who were supposed to show me tolerance—they were showing my anything but tolerance. Dennis: How did you do, loving your mom in that situation? Caleb: It was difficult at first; but I got encouragement from my friends, saying, “Caleb, you need to love her no matter what.” I started reading the New Testament. 20:00 Whenever I had free time, I was reading, reading, reading, reading—especially the words of Jesus—and then moving on to Romans, so on and so forth. I really latched onto what Jesus said there and the mercy that He said, even in the beatitudes, when Jesus said, “Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.” I cannot own how my mother treats me / I cannot own how somebody else reacts to me—what I can own is my own reactions—how I respond and what I do. That is what God holds me accountable to. I can own how I'm going to love people, no matter what / follow the example of Jesus, when He was hanging on the cross and He said: “Father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing.” Now, if the Son of God, who is innocent, could say that, after everything He was through, I'm pretty sure I could look at my mom and say: “I forgive you. I'm choosing every day not to hold this against you.” Dennis: I think you're ministering to some parents, who have children, who've come out and who have said, “I think I'm gay.” 21:00 I think you're also ministering to some family members, who may have been invited to a wedding of a relative in their family, where they're struggling with, “What's our response to be?” I think you're also ministering to folks, Caleb, who work in places, where they have close associates, whose lifestyles are different than theirs. You're exhorting all of us, regardless, to go back to the Book / back to the life of Christ and love others the way He loved us. Bob: Well, and I think your example helps there, too, and what you've shared with us of your own story, and what you share in your book, Messy Grace. I think that gives us a blueprint / a living illustration that we can follow and know how to engage with our friends or our family members. We have copies of Caleb's book, Messy Grace, in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can go online to request your copy; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to order a copy of the book, Messy Grace. 22:00 Again, the website: FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” I know we probably have some of you, who are tuned in today because this is a holiday week for a lot of folks—people taking time off—and maybe some of you, who don't normally listen to FamilyLife Today, have been able to catch the program. We're glad that you joined us. FamilyLife® is a non-profit organization. We exist to effectively develop godly marriages and families. We believe those godly marriages and families can change the world, one home at a time. This daily radio program is just one aspect of all that we do, here, at FamilyLife. All that we do, here, at FamilyLife is possible because friends, like you, make it possible. We are listener-supported; and your donations help cover, not only the cost of producing and syndicating this program, but all of the outreaches of FamilyLife. All that we're involved with couldn't happen without your support. 23:00 If you're a regular listener, and you've never made a donation, we'd love to have you join the team that supports this ministry. If you're a first-time listener, or a new listener, we hope you'll continue to tune in; and you can download the FamilyLife app from your app store. Just type in FamilyLife as one word and that will give you immediate access to our program every day, so you can listen to it on your time schedule. To donate, go to FamilyLifeToday.com—you can donate online—or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation over the phone. You can always mail your donation to us as well. Our address is FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. By the way, let me just say we believe that your first priority, when it comes to giving, needs to be your local church; so make sure that you're investing well there before you do anything to help support this ministry. 24:00 We hope you can join us back tomorrow when Caleb Kaltenbach will be here again. We're going to talk about how we should interact with friends, coworkers, neighbors—people who we know who identify as LGBT. How do we let them know who we are, and what we believe, and how do we build a relationship there? We'll talk about that tomorrow. I hope you can tune in. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
Rebuilding a Marriage Better Than New (Part 1) - Chris and Cindy BeallRebuilding a Marriage Better Than New (Part 2) - Chris and Cindy BeallRebuilding a Marriage Better Than New (Part 3) - Chris and Cindy BeallFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Desperate for Freedom Guest: Chris & Cindy Beall From the series: Rebuilding a Marriage Better Than New (Day 1 of 3) Bob: Chris Beall had a secret and it came to a point where he realized as long as he kept his secret a secret—it was affecting his marriage and his spiritual life. Chris: All the things that God wanted to do in my life wouldn't happen until I had the courage to bring what was in the dark into the light. There's something about bringing it into the light—confessing it to another person and praying for each other—that brings an exposure and a healing. The moment that I took that step was the beginning of radical healing in my own heart. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, August 28th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll learn about Chris Beall's secret today—and how it almost destroyed his marriage. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. We have a couple with us today who—some of our listeners will recognize them because their story. They've shared it on FamilyLife Today before. It's been shared as a part of The Stepping Up® Video Series. It's a great story of beauty coming from ashes. Dennis: It is indeed. We have the author of the book Rebuilding a Marriage Better Than New - Cindy Beall. Cindy, welcome back to the broadcast. Cindy: It's great to be here. Thanks for having me. Dennis: And her husband, Chris—welcome back to you as well. Chris: We are excited. We love you guys. Dennis: The Beall's have been married since 1993. They have three teenage sons and their story is one of the classics on FamilyLife Today in terms of God showing up and truly not only redeeming but reconciling their marriage. Bob: If our listeners would like to hear the complete story of what brought your marriage to the brink, 2:00 they can go to our website—FamilyLifeToday.com—and listen to the interviews we've done with you. But Chris, it's rooted in you growing up with the exposure to pornography that lead you to some dark places. Chris: Right. Eight years old I saw the first pornographic image—and for the next twenty years I was a prisoner—in one form or another—to the struggle. In 2002 we were invited to be a part of Life Church in Oklahoma City and we came. At that moment I really feel like there was kind of a do-over because I had an enormous amount of baggage and an enormous amount of lifestyle moral failures. Honestly, multiple affairs prior to us moving to Oklahoma City. Dennis: That weren't really known to anyone. Chris: Correct. It was total double life. Cindy knew something wasn't right in our marriage, didn't know exactly what that meant or what it looked like. 3:00 I would say that I was a master deceiver—of myself and other people—to keep those worlds separate—but it was when we came to Life Church that it really seemed like, “Okay, God. We thought we were coming to be the next worship leader at this church”—and the reality was God brought us there to heal us. That starts with the exposure of what the sin was. Bob: Cindy, for you that exposure came out of the blue one morning when your husband came home from work unexpectedly and said, “We need to talk.” You had no idea was coming. Cindy: I had no idea. As he began to unfold the things he just shared with you—the pornography addiction, the infidelity—as he began to say all those things, things just started happening in my mind. Of course, instant desperation, despair, everything terrible you can imagine that you could think, I thought it—but at the same time was—”Oh, it's making sense now.” 4:00 Because it wasn't our entire nine years of marriage leading up to this point—it was about a two and one half year period of really intense difficulty—so it was a total shock. I would never have imagined that he would have gone this far—this deep—into such a wretched place. Dennis: You knew at that point that something was missing in your marriage. You just couldn't say, “This is it”—but all of a sudden it was disclosed. Cindy: Absolutely. Chris: Correct. Cindy: For me, I remembered during that two and a half year period I felt very alone where we were in our church. My husband was the worship pastor, the youth pastor and so I really—people looked to me—so who am I going to talk to? I just—it was really a lonely place for me so I became very well acquainted with my heavenly Father. He became everything to me. I remember just praying, “God, something's wrong. Something's wrong.” I just remember Him saying, “Trust me. Trust me.” 5:00 So, I believed that had we not come to Oklahoma, been a part of Life Church—under Craig and Emily Groshell—that we might not have survived this. Chris: I remember seeing a book that was always next to Cindy's chair during her quiet times in the mornings during those two and a half years that I was living this double life. It was the Power of a Praying Wife. Dennis: Yes. Bob: Yes. Chris: I will tell you, looking back, my wife was praying God's word over my life in the period that I was the most prodigal that I had ever been. I know we're going to get to this, but I truly believe where we are today—there are so many things how the church responded—partly how I responded—but I believe it all started with the fact that I had a wife that was praying—in the darkest place of my rebellion—my wife was praying and believing God's word and speaking promises over my life that ultimately I became those prayers. Dennis: FamilyLife has known as an organization for bringing practical, Biblical, help and hope to couples. 6:00 I just have to say what you two modeled—as you faced this deep, dark valley of despair—how you modeled repentance, Chris, and how you modeled grace and forgiveness and steadfast commitment to move forward in your marriage and how the church offered healing and how they helped restore—first of all, Chris, you to a right standing before God—but then secondly, restore your marriage and your family. I would just encourage listeners—because we're not going to continue to unpack all the details of what they did in the previous broadcast, go listen to that broadcast that they did. What I want to unpack is how God met you in that deep wound and brought deep healing. Bob: Cindy—that started that morning when your husband comes home. He is transparent about everything that has gone on. 7:00 You find out about multiple affairs. You find out that he has fathered a son—who is living in another state. This is all new to you. You had two big questions right in front of you that day. The first one is,” How do we handle this in the short term?”—because the news is going to come out that the worship pastor at the big church in town that he's not the worship pastor anymore and we have to figure out what we have to do with that—but then,” Do I even stay married to this man?” There's a Biblical case to be made for you to say, “We're done here. I'm moving on.” Cindy: Yes, and that honestly, as much as I loved him, I literally thought, “I don't think my heart can take this. I think it would be best to just cut my losses—move back to Texas. I just have one child; I can manage being a single mom.” I started immediately— I'm a planner—I'm proud of being a planner, but sometimes it gets me going on the wrong track and I start planning and not including God in the scenario—but I—I'm telling you—I began thinking, “What am I going to do?” 8:00 Thinking—just because I didn't leave our marriage—at the time we were still living in the same house—mainly because we couldn't afford to do anything different. I just felt like the Father was like, “Hello? I'm still here. Are you going to ask Me about this?” Sure enough, I was like, “Okay God. What do you think I should do?” I just kept asking that question. I just remember Him saying, “Remember when you said would do anything to bring Me glory?” I was like, “Well, yes—but I was meaning easier things, like something simpler.” God just began to stir in me—and through a long series of events that I wrote about in my first book—I talk about how God met me and He spoke the word to me about staying the course and trusting in Him and trusting Him for the vision that He would unfold. So three weeks later I said, “Okay God, I trust you.”—because I certainly didn't trust him— 9:00 —I had to trust my heavenly Father. He is the only one 100% trustworthy—so that was the beginning of that. Bob: So it was a three week period, basically—from the time you heard this until said, “Okay, I'm going to stick with this.” Cindy: Correct. Bob: Was, “I'm going to stick with it,”—was that, “I'm in this until the end,” or was this, “I'll stick with this for six more months and see what happens?” Cindy: It was for the end—it was until the end. Habakkuk 2:3 says, “For the vision is yet for the appointed time. Though it linger, wait for it. It will certainly come. It will not delay.” That was the Scripture that I had been basically begging God for. I just didn't know it was going to be through a minor prophet of a name that most people can't pronounce—and certainly we don't read about him. I mean, it's Habakkuk!—but God spoke to me through that. That's what I have stood on for 15 years. Dennis: I just want you to unpack—what gave you the courage during that three week process to take that step of faith to move toward healing? 10:00 You've mentioned you had a relationship with God and you had a heart that was open—teachable—willing to do what God asked you to do. What else did He bring your way to make that a reasonable step of faith? Cindy: Well, He brought people. There was a couple that really walked with us—they had already experienced infidelity in their marriage like twenty years prior, so they were with us—they were walking through it with us—encouraging us. One of the pastors on the team—as I was that three week period I kept—as I said I am a planner, I wanted to kind of know what the rest of my life would look like—which is a ludicrous thing—but I was thinking, “I need to know. I need to know,” and he just looked at me and he said, “Cindy, you don't have to decide the rest of your life today.” So that thought kind of carried me each day until I knew that I had heard from God to stay in my marriage because there were people with opinions everywhere. Anybody can give you an opinion. Well, you need to leave. Once a cheater, always a cheater. He's going to do this again—and there's so many things. Dennis: You heard that from Christians? 11:00 Cindy: Oh, yes. I mean—of course—and had I not gone through something like this, I can't say I wouldn't have thought the same thing. We shoot our wounded as Christians, sadly, but trying not to decide the rest of my life for that season really did help me and take those steps. Dennis: I want to point out three things here real quickly. First of all, you had counsel to hang in there—people who had been wounded themselves. And secondly they shared their own wounds with you which had been adultery—a lack of faithfulness. I am thinking of a couple, Bob, that you and I both know who have been very open about an error the husband made in their relationship, and their marriage has now been used to literally touch hundreds of other couples, both here in America, and internationally as they're willing to open their hearts and admit something that is really kind of ugly. We kind of are repulsed by it. 12:00 I just want to say to those listeners who have this as a part of your past—I'm not encouraging you to boast about it—but I am encouraging you to boast about God's redemption, His reconciliation, and how He brings hope where there is despair—because there are listeners who are listening to us right now who are despairing and who need hope. That's the third thing that you mentioned, Cindy—that I just want to underline. You were willing to admit you didn't know what your future held, but you were willing to step out in faith. I think it was Martin Luther King, I believe, who made this statement. “Faith is taking the first step on the staircase without being able to see all the other steps.” I like that because you took that first step on a staircase—you didn't know where it was going to lead you. Cindy: Absolutely. I kind of picture God's hands under my feet— 13:00 —and one foot is on one hand and it's there when I step. Then the next one—it's not ready until I lift—the ever progressing thing that I am on with God. Bob: The river doesn't part until you step into the water. Cindy: That's right. Bob: And those who are standing on the shore waiting for the Jordan River to part—no, you have to step in the water before God does that work. What's going on with you in this three week period while she's trying to decide “Do I stay or do I go?” Chris: So I obviously want the marriage to survive—I mean desperately—but here's the thing. Dennis: Now wait a second—that's not necessarily obvious. Bob: There are some guys who are ready for it to be over. Chris: Okay. Well, the context of my struggle was not fueled by a lack of intimacy at home. I had a deep emptiness in my heart. Here's the thing—I have struggled since I was a kid feeling like I was a failure—do I measure up? 14:00 I love my wife. I know my actions don't show that, but she was my best friend. I would choose to spend time with her. The thing is, I allowed this sense of inadequacy to need to be medicated. What happened was in a weird way these images on a screen momentarily made me feel a little bit more like a man—and then I felt less of a man. So it creates this spiral and this cycle of darkness. The relationship with other women was the fact that I don't like who I am—but this other person is drawn to me or likes me. That's ultimately—I'm trying to medicate my own internal emptiness. It was just a deep dark place that I was trying to heal it though everyone other that the source of that healing—which is God. Bob: Right. Chris: So as Cindy is going through this process of, “Do I want to stay? Is this marriage going to work?” I deeply wanted that to work. 15:00 But what I wanted even more—I wanted to be free—because I've been a prisoner most of my life. I‘ve been a prisoner of sin, I've been a prisoner of habitual behaviors that for whichever reason, I just can't seem to be able to break out of. As much as I want my marriage to work, I had nothing to offer Cindy and I have nothing to offer for my boys unless I am walking in freedom. I was desperate. This is my shot and I want to be free. There's really two things that were significant in those early days for me. One is that I allowed myself to let my heart break for what I had done to the heart of God and what I had done to the heart of the people I loved the most. Paul talked about the difference between worldly sorrow and Godly sorrow. He writes this letter to the Corinthians. He says, “I'm not sorry that what I said brought you sorrow, for Godly sorrow leaves no regret and brings about repentance”. 16:00 Repentance is a military term that really—it's literally an about face—I'm going to turn 180 degrees from the direction that I am going—and I am going to turn completely to God. But worldly sorrow is really more of a, “I'm inconvenienced by the consequence of my sin,” and that leads—Paul says—to death. So I just let my heart break. I was a puddle of emotion for quite some time—I think that process was extremely necessary for me to go through. It wasn't that I was putting condemnation and shame on myself, but I was allowing my heart to break for what broke the heart of God. Bob: You were at a crossroads—and I've met guys at this crossroads. You had been successfully managing your sin for two and a half years. Chris: Correct. Bob: You'd been playing this so they're the only one who knows and you're maneuvering your way through it. 17:00 Now you're at a point where, “Do I keep trying to manage this? Or do I mortify it?”—which means to put it to death. I heard one guy describe it this way. It's like a rabid dog that you keep in a cage over in the corner of the house and you go, “As long as he's in the cage, he can't hurt me. I'll get it out every once in a while and play with it and then put it back in the cage.” Well, that dog gets bigger and sicker and one of these days is going to kill you. Chris: Right. Bob: So the thing you have to do with the dog is you have to kill the dog. Chris: Right. Bob: You were at the crossroads where, “I cannot manage this anymore. I have to put this to death.” I'm imagining, Chris, even in that moment, you don't really know your heart—“Do I really want to put this to death?” Or, “I'm where I am and I feel bad, this will last for a while then I'll be right back to it.” Chris Monday morning I'm sitting in a staff meeting with Chris Groshell—who is my boss—and I can't say enough about how God used this man in our marriage. He made a comment in that staff meeting and— 18:00 —he said to our team that, “It is our private integrity that gives us the ability to minister publically, so we have to keep it clean. We have to. The stakes are so high.” He said, “If you are walking in sin—it's going to find you out. Confess it, and you'll find grace.” That was on a Monday. I had been at that church for six weeks with this looming cloud of, “I'm going to get found out.” That was on a Monday. It was on a Tuesday that I'm like, “I can't do this anymore.” I just really believed that all the things that God wanted to do in my life wouldn't happen until I had the courage to bring what was in the dark into the light. James, “Confess your sins one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed.” This whole time that I was in sin, I would drive home from having sinned and I'm confessing to God. 19:00 “God, heal me. Please don't let me ever do this again.” There's not a Scripture in the Bible that says confess to the Lord for healing. We confess to God for forgiveness but there's something about bringing it into the light and confessing it to another person and praying for each other that brings an exposure and a healing. The moment that I took that step was the beginning of radical healing in my own heart. Cindy: I kind of equate it to—he got to the point that Tuesday morning—that he wanted freedom so desperately that he was willing to risk everything to get it—including our marriage. I know that you've got listeners right now listening to this broadcast and they are in a world of hurt and sick in bondage. They don't hate their sin enough. When we come to the place where we hate it enough, we'll do anything to find freedom. Hopefully somebody listening can take that step today. 20:00 Dennis: Chris mentioned freedom. I immediately thought of Galatians chapter 5 verse 1. It says, “For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.” There are undoubtedly listeners right now who are listening and they have never really met Jesus Christ and understood His love, His forgiveness, His mercy, His grace, His redemption—that He offers to people to step out of the prison that they are in and be set free. I would just challenge you if you are in this situation now, it may be time for you to settle things with God. Chris was talking about settling things with the person you have offended. It may be important for you to first of all settle the issues with the God you've offended. 21:00 Then secondly, after that relationship has been established—because that is what the Christian life is—it's beginning a journey of following Christ—not perfectly—but you're following the perfect Savior who now lives in you. Then go to your spouse—and there's where as a couple you have to embrace the same Jesus Christ who set you free—you have to express forgiveness to one another. Ephesians chapter 4 talks about forgiving one another just as God in Christ has forgiven you. That's your command. Forgiveness means you give up the right to punish the other person. I wish you could see Cindy's nodding head right now—she's smiling and nodding. She had to repeatedly give up the right to punish Chris. Bob: The verse I'm thinking of that the two of you have modeled in this entire story is Ephesians 5:11 that says, “Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.” 22:00 That's what you guys choose to do. This week we'll get a chance to follow you on that journey and hear how God was at work in both of your lives as you moved forward. In fact, Chris and Cindy have shared the story in a book that Cindy has written that's called Rebuilding a Marriage Better Than New. We've got copies of the book in our FamilyLifeToday Resource Center. Go online at FamilyLifeToday.com if you'd like to get a copy or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to receive a copy. Again the website is FamilyLifeToday.com, you can order online. Or you can call to order at 1-800-358-6329. 1-800-F as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word TODAY. Again I'll mention—on our website we've got a short video clip where you guys share your story—listeners may want to view that. They may know somebody they'd like to pass that clip on to. Again you'll find it at FamilyLifeToday.com. 23:00 Well, this is the home stretch week for us here at FamilyLife—it's the last week of August. We just have a few days left to hear from listeners if we're going to be able to take full advantage of the matching gift opportunity that was extended to us back at the beginning of the month. We had a friend of the ministry who came along and agreed he would match every donation we received this month on a dollar for dollar basis up to a total of $800,000. Now those matching funds will enable us to be able to reach more people more often with this radio program, through our website, through our events and our resources. You can help extend the reach of this ministry by making a donation and having your donation be effectively doubled because of the matching gift opportunity—but you need to do it before the end of the month—and the end of the month is this week. So today is a good day to go to FamilyLifeToday.com and make an online donation or call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. 24:00 Or you can mail your donation to us at FamilyLife Today at P.O. Box 7111, Little Rock, AR. Our zip code is 72223. Please do pray that we would get the necessary funds this week and be able to take full advantage of that match. We appreciate you. We hope you can join us back tomorrow. We are going to continue to follow Chris and Cindy Beall as they take us through the process they've been through in rebuilding a broken marriage. Hope you can join us back tomorrow for that. Bob: I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
Gone Fishing With Hank Parker (Part 1) - Hank ParkerGone Fishing With Hank Parker (Part 2) - Hank ParkerGone Fishing With Hank Parker (Part 3) - Hank Parker FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. A Legacy of Faith Guest: Hank Parker From the series: Gone Fishing with Hank Parker (Day 2 of 3) Bob: Hank Parker is an award-winning, world champion fisherman. In the process of chasing that dream, Hank looks back and realizes he neglected something even more important. Hank: I was not the husband that God called me to be and the result was total devastation. The Bible says you love your wife as Christ loved the church and died for it. It is not contingent—God tells the wife what to do, and God tells the husband what to do. So my behavior is not contingent on how well she does her job, and God showed me that clearly. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, June 8th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. It is easy in the pursuit of our dreams to neglect what's really important in our lives. Hank Parker talks about that with us today. Stay tuned. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I have been inspired this week. I think I can do it—I think I can become a world class bass fisherman. [Laughter] I mean— Dennis: Bob— Bob: Yes? Dennis: Bob, I've seen you fish. Bob: Well— Dennis: Bob, tell the audience what kind of fishing pole I gave you. Bob: We have been fishing together up on the—what was it? Dennis: The White River. Bob: It's in Arkansas. They're—what are the fish called? They're trout? Dennis: That's what they are called. They have fins. Bob: Right Dennis: They live in water. Bob: Right. Dennis: That is correct. Bob: And there was a nice man in the boat who took those fish off that hook for me—I appreciated him a lot! Dennis: But tell them about the pole I gave you. It was a kiddie pole— Bob: It was a Zebco®. Dennis: —a little pink kiddie pole, that was about two feet long and— Bob: We're going to post on our website, at FamilyLifeToday.com, a picture of the fish I caught with that big fishing pole— Dennis: I was—that was where I was going. Bob: —because I caught a pretty good-sized fish. Dennis: I wanted to tell— 2:00 Bob: It was the big fish of the day. Dennis: It was the big fish of the trip! I got to introduce Hank Parker. Welcome back to Bob Lepine's Outdoor Program. [Laughter] Hank: The big-fish man caught it on a kid's rod and reel, and it was two feet long!I've never done that—that's pretty special. [Laughter] Dennis: Hank is a world champion bass fisherman. He has a TV program called Hank Parker's Outdoors—also has a hunting program with your sons. Share with our listeners about that broadcast. Hank: Okay. My fishing show is Hank Parker's Outdoor Magazine, been running for 34 years. Then, for 10 years now, I've been doing a show with my two older sons called Hank Parker's Flesh and Blood. It's a hunting show over on the Outdoor Channel. We've had a lot of fun with that. Bob: So, I can look at myself in the mirror and know that I can't make it in the NBA—[Laughter]—okay? I'm not tall enough / I can't jump that high. I can look at myself in the mirror and know the NFL is out for me. Can anybody be a world class fisherman? 3:00 Hank: Absolutely! And that is what is so cool about our sport. I was talking earlier with some folks about the growth of high school fishing. These kids that are not athletic / these kids that don't necessarily qualify for any type of team sport—the water is level. Whether you're a little girl, a little boy, whether you're tall—it doesn't make any difference. You know, the water's level; and fish are not partial to anybody—they're non-discriminate. Bob: Well, the guy that we went fishing with that day, who was in the boat—who took the fish off the hook for me? [Laughter] I saw what Dennis paid him at the end of the day. He's making a good living doing that. He's doing alright; you know? Dennis: There are a lot of days when you don't go to work though, Bob. Bob: Okay! Dennis: Alright. I want you to talk to our listeners—we've got other stories that I want you to tell—but I just—for a moment, talk to moms and dads about doing something like fishing or hunting with your son / with your daughter; because it really is a great way— 4:00 Bob is kind of kidding about this—but it really is a great way to bond and build relationships with your kids. Hank: I have the opportunity—when I do fishing seminars, people will ask questions from time to time. I take every opportunity that I can to spread the word that fishing will break down a lot of barriers. In my life, it was everything. But almost every kid that you will ever see catch a fish—whether they are 2 years old or 80 years old / old kids— everybody catches a fish smiles / it's fun. But you know, we all are guilty—I'm guilty of driving the kids to school—the bell is going to ring at 8:15, and we've got to hurry and hurry. You kind of force feed a conversation when the mood's wrong. Man, you can take your kid out on a riverbank—or in the boat and sit on the pond—just let him or her just open up. Let the conversation flow. 5:00 The quality of the conversation you can have in the right atmosphere breaks so many barriers that we try to force on our kids. Communicating is not just talking. To be able to really reach your children, you've got to work to create an environment. Fishing will help you do that. I promise you—it will help you get that. Bob: Have you thought about why that is? What is it about fishing that causes people to just to relax and have conversations that they might not otherwise have? Hank: I just think it calms your nerves. It is very soothing / it is no pressure—you don't have to make a hoop / you don't have to be physically gifted to get it done. Man, you just throw a bobber out there. Fishing can be really sophisticated and complicated—a lot of electronic equipment we use and some of the stuff in techniques and methods. But that's really not what fishing is all about. That's just a specialized technique for a very limited number of the people that participate in the sport. 6:00 Fishing is about families / fishing is about good times. Fishing is about sharing—fishing is about being with someone / interacting—you want to be with. And that's really what fishing is all about—to take your kid and be able to put your arm around him or her—just breaks those barriers. They're under no pressure. You know, our kids today—the academic demands are so hard on them. If you don't fit in to play team sports you get made fun of. So they're under pressure—they're constantly being critiqued because they can't do this. I know how that feels. All of a sudden, you put them in an environment where there is none of that—no pressure at all. Here we are, just having a good time. I think it just breaks down those barriers that allow them to open up. Boy, if you can ever get them to open up, then you can really start to communicate. 7:00 Dennis: One of my favorite moments, here, on FamilyLifeToday—Bob will know when it was before I finish saying the name—but it was a tribute given by RV Brown. R V Brown gave his father, who was—lived to be in his nineties, I think—didn't he, Bob? Bob: Yes. Dennis: And R V was one of 18 kids? Bob: Right. Dennis: He gave his dad a tribute. You know what he reflected on as he spoke to his dad in that tribute? Hank: No. Dennis: He said, “You took me fishing,”—Willy Fish? Bob: He called his dad Willy Fish Brown. Hank: How ‘bout that! Bob: Yes! Dennis: Did you go fishing with your dad? Hank: I did! Early on, before my dad got so consumed, we fished. It was so special—it was incredible. If I can, I'll tell a really quick story. I've had all these goals in my life. I was the first angler to ever win the Bassmaster Classic and the B.A.S.S. Angler of the Year—I was the first guy to ever win the Grand Slam. I've had some pretty good achievements. 8:00 A lot of times, people ask me a question about: “What is your greatest moment in the outdoors?” The greatest moment for me in the outdoors—my youngest son, Timmy, who loves the turkey hunt. I'm a big-time turkey hunter; so I've got all these rules: “We do not talk in the turkey woods. You can break a limb and maybe you're an animal; but if you talk, you are a dead give-away.” We were sitting on the riverbank on the Broad River in South Carolina. This big gobbler was gobbling. Every time a bird—if you are not familiar with turkey hunting—in the morning, when they wake up, in the spring of the year, they gobble. He's up in the tree and he's gobbling. Every breath / every little tweety bird that makes a sound—he is trying to out-gobble. Timmy pulls up on my shirt—he just tugs my shirt. God had painted one of those incredible sunrises, and there was steam coming off the water. He was so overwhelmed with that—he had to tell me. He pulled on my shirt. I looked down; and he said, “Daddy, I love you.” 9:00 I was about to cry and the turkey was. It was just so special. But his little heart was so full of gratitude and just overwhelmed with being in that environment. That was my greatest moment in the outdoors Dennis: When you do go fishing or hunting with your kids—well, it requires that you be all there. There is no competition with a screen or with the phone. It's just a relationship between a father and a son, or father and a daughter, or for that matter, a mother and her son. Bob: Now wait, are you telling me you have to leave your phone in the car?—or you can't take it into the woods? Dennis: I promise you, you wouldn't go turkey hunting with Hank Parker if you brought your cell phone on you. Bob: I was thinking about the similarities between the two of you, because you're both turkey hunters. I think one of the differences is you've actually shot a turkey; haven't you, Hank? [Laughter] Hank: Self defense. Bob: Because, Dennis goes out every year; and every year, the turkeys have been safe. [Laughter] Have you ever shot a turkey? Dennis: I have, Bob. But in recent years, they've not been in danger. [Laughter] No; there's no doubt about it. 10:00 You've had quite a career—winning all these accolades / inducted into the Bass Fishing Hall of Fame and so many things that have come your way. You indicated that there was a bit of a drift in your life—even after you came to faith in Christ—that began to change at some point. Would you kind of bring us up to date on what took place in those years that led you up to that? And then, how did that change occur? Hank: There was a tremendous revival when my dad got saved. Then, I got saved; and I became very legalistic. I went through the motions and I did what I felt was expected of me. I worked bus routes to go seek kids to bring them to Sunday school, out of duty, not out of my heart. I was pretty tough on my family. I was so legalistic, at some points in time, in my life—I was just bogged down in it. 11:00 I was married to a wonderful lady, and we had five children. I had gone to California on a little fishing trip; and I met her in Santa Fe, New Mexico, where we were buying a house. She tells me she wanted a divorce. It rocked my world beyond—I didn't see it coming—should have. I was a part-time husband, at best. I, of course, blamed it all on her. It was completely her fault, in my mind; until one day, when I was shaving, God said: “Look in the mirror, and you'll see whose fault it is.” Dennis: Had you let career so dominate your life? I mean, because—to be really good at something, whether it's basketball, golf, or fishing—you've got to be all there / to be focused. Hank: I didn't even know—to be totally honest, I did not know how consumed I was with competitive bass fishing—I had no idea. I promised my kids—my kids were growing up—and their mom was an awesome mom. She was just great to those kids, and she worked hard at it. 12:00 But those kids had gotten to be 12 years old / 10 years old. They wanted to go race golf carts and go-carts, and they wanted to go climb trees, and deer hunt and squirrel hunt—do things that moms are not normally willing to do. Some moms are good at that, but their mom—that didn't interest her—so they needed their dad. So I promised them—I said, “If I ever win the World Championship again, I'll retire”; and I did. In 1989, I won the World Championship the second time; and I retired. I was 36 years old. But it wasn't until I retired that I realized how consumed I was. My every waking thought was about the next lake / my next strategies—what I am going to do. All of a sudden, the thing that hit me the hardest when I retired is: “Man, my mind's cleared; because I'm not thinking about the next tournament.” It wasn't until then that I realized how consumed I was; but as far as my marriage was concerned, it was pretty much too late. 13:00 I came home to try to fix things—in which I didn't know there was a problem in the marriage—I knew there was a problem in my parenting / that I wasn't there enough. My kids would stand at the door every time I'd leave and cry. You know: “I've got to quit doing this.” So, when I retired, I did realize how consumed I was with the sport. Dennis: Would people in your church, where you attended, would they have said: “Yes; Hank and his wife are doing fine. He's very successful.” Hank: Absolutely! No one in the entire world would have thought—my children didn't see anything—no one knew anything. My wife had just grown so frustrated with my being gone constantly and had no confidence that I would ever change. She had just resolved in her heart that I would never be there for her—so she was moving on. She had got to that point and wasn't any changing her mind. For four years, we tried—for four years, we tried. 14:00 Dennis: —tried to push back against divorce. Hank: Tried to fight it. But I look back—you know, I would blame her in my heart, but God showed me clearly it wasn't her—it was me. Had my priorities—you know, people—I hear it all the time—when the Bible says you love your wife as Christ loved the church and died for it; and then wives submit to your husbands. It's not contingent—God told the wife what to do, and God tells the husband what to do. My behavior is not contingent on how well she does her job. God showed me that clearly. So I can't blame anything on her. I have to take the blame, because I was not the husband that God called me to be; and the result was total devastation. Bob: I want to ask you a really hard question: “If I could take you back ten years before your wife said, ‘I want a divorce,' and I could put a path in front of you, and I could say: ‘This one leads to bass championships and world recognition—the Hall of Fame. 15:00 “'This one—you'll make a living for your family, doing what you enjoy doing. You won't get the endorsements / you won't be in the Hall of Fame, but you'll live it out and things will stay intact.'” Could you pick? Hank: I could pick in a heartbeat. There's no doubt I would have chose to take the job to make a living and keep my family intact—no doubt. Dennis: It was devastating to you. Hank: You know, I don't tell this very often—I don't know that I've ever really told it—but I walked away / I didn't take anything. I didn't take part of the home—I walked away—I didn't have a place to live. I lived with my son in an apartment for a year, because I wasn't capable of making payments. I left everything. I had about two million dollars worth of debt—that's all I left with—I didn't have anything. But I wasn't able—people: “Why didn't you fight for what your fair share was?” I wasn't able to fight—I was devastated / I didn't want to live. 16:00 I had gotten to the point where the papers—when I got those papers, I cannot tell you what that did to me. But they're on my desk—and the first time in my whole life I was afraid of my own self. I wasn't thinking clear. I went to shut the door of my office. I have a trophy shelf there with all my trophies. I looked down at the bottom, and I saw all my kids in a picture. I fell on my face in my office and I said: “God, You've got to give me something I don't have. I'm at the lowest point I've ever been of my life.” Now, through this whole four years of fighting and trying to save my marriage, I was so angry with God. I didn't pray—so I'm the Prodigal Son now—I've been gone / I've been in the hog pen. I fell down on that floor and the Father came. The Holy Spirit put His arm around me and said: “I'm here. I've been waiting on you.” It was a revelation that I had never experienced before or since. 17:00 God loved on me and gave me something inside, and this suicidal idea that I had left me. I don't say I didn't ever have struggles after that; but I never, ever got to that low, low point ever again. I realized how much He loved me and all those legalistic years were now behind me. I served God because I thought this is what I needed to do for a lot of years. But the last 16 years, I have served Him out of pure love. I realize how much God loves me and that it all changed in just a second. Bob: Hank, if there's a guy listening and he's thinking: “If we can just gut this out for five years / if I can just stay focused on the business and get this thing, I can be at the top of the game. And then I'll turn back around; and we can have it all, as a family”—what would you say to him? 18:00 Hank: “It doesn't work!” This is what I did wrong, and I know this. My wife did not know how much I loved her—I never conveyed—I never put my arms around her and said: “Baby, let's work this together. Here's my schedule; is this okay? Can we do this? I love you. I want to make this for you.” I never did those things—“I'm the big tough guy / I'm the world champ—I'm the man. You're going to do it my way.” You can't say: “I'm going go off and fish these next five years and, then, I'm going to come home and fix it,”—I thought that—it didn't work. Dennis: And what did work—was finally emptying yourself. It's the only way a marriage can work—is with a husband and a wife who decide to surrender to Jesus Christ and to what He has for them to do. And there are some duties we have to do that mean we can't outrun our wives and our children at home to accomplish something out in the world. 19:00 Early in our ministry, I had to decide: “Was I going to outrun my wife, Barbara?” I don't know, Hank, why I could see something at that point that you couldn't see in bass fishing; because I could have made the very same decision, because the ministry can be intoxicating—people telling you how you've encouraged them / you've ministered to them. But something spoke to me and said: “If you attempt to go do those things, and leave your wife and your children in the dust, it's not going to be good—the outcome was going to be bad.” I've made a lot of wrong decisions in my marriage / in raising our family. But in that one situation, I saw clearly that: “If you are going to make whatever it is an idol, in place of Jesus Christ—not surrendered to Him—and take care of Job One, which begins at home, you're headed for big time trouble.” 20:00 Hank: You know, I think, with me, I never really thought about anything. I just went at it so hard that I did not stop and think about the partnership of marriage. I didn't ever think I was doing anything wrong. I thought: “Man, I'm being a great provider—I'm giving them all these things.” I never really felt that I was doing anything wrong. That's part of my problem—was not reading the Bible / staying in the Bible and allowing God to talk to me. You know: “I'm going to help God. I'm going to show Him how I can do things,”—it did not work for me. I'm not an authority, but I can just tell you—in my life, I messed it up because it was about me. Had I been in the Scriptures and had I been getting daily lessons—and treated my marriage as a partnership, where I die to self and take half of her and she half of me—we wouldn't have a divorce. 21:00 I want to tell you—I would rather die than I had to go through a divorce. It was the most devastating, painful failure that I'd ever been through in my life. Dennis: So to that person, who is listening right now, who is maybe on the precipice of jumping, you'd say, “Don't do it!” Hank: Absolutely! “Do not do it! At all costs / at all costs, save your marriage.” Bob: If we can help, that's what we're here for. Our goal, here, at FamilyLife is to provide help and hope for marriages and families. I'm thinking, Dennis, of our Weekend to Remember ® getaways—and the couples who have come, who have lost hope; but who hear a message at the Weekend to Remember that God uses to turn their marriage around. It doesn't always happen—there are some couples who come and the breakthrough doesn't happen. 22:00 But for a lot of couples, the Weekend to Remember getaway is the turning point for a marriage that has been headed in the wrong direction for a long time. They get rerouted and they find themselves in a new place on a new path. They have a fresh hope for their marriage. I just encourage our listeners—if you've not attended a Weekend to Remember marriage getaway, go to our website at FamilyLifeToday.com to get more information. We still have a handful of these getaways happening this summer. Tomorrow in Texas—in Austin and in Houston—we've got getaways kicking off; and then continuing through the summer—in Arizona / Las Vegas—other getaways taking place. You can find out more about the Weekend to Remember, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call if you have any questions at 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and the word, “TODAY.” 23:00 And if for some reason you can't get to a getaway, and you're in a desperate spot in your marriage, give us a call. We can recommend resources—we can recommend articles you can read / programs you can listen to—things that will hopefully give you a fresh perspective on God's design for your marriage and how it can, not just survive, but how it can actually thrive. And by the way, we should say, “Thank you,” to the listeners who support this ministry, financially; because you guys are a big part of all that God is doing through the ministry of FamilyLife. You make it possible for what happens here to be heard by more people around the world through more devices / through more means than ever before—more people visiting our website / more people attending our events. You make that happen every time you donate to support this ministry. You are extending the reach of FamilyLife Today, and we are grateful for your support. 24:00 You can give a donation today, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com. You can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate; or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. Now, tomorrow, we are going to hear about the Parker family—the Parker boys. We want to hear about what your sons are up to—have got some great stories to share with you tomorrow. I hope you can tune in as we continue our conversation this week with Hank Parker. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® ministry.Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. 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Don't Waste Your Life (Part 1) - John PiperDon't Waste Your Life (Part 2) - John PiperDon't Waste Your Life (Part 3) - John PiperFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Don't Waste Your LifeDay 1 of 3 Guest: John Piper From the Series: Following the Call of Christ ________________________________________________________________Bob: So why are you here? For that matter, why is anything here? Well, here is an answer from Dr. John Piper. John: We need to help people see why the universe was created, and it wasn't created for people to become famous and for people to become powerful, it was created to display the worth and excellencies and beauty and wonders of God. And we are here to receive that excellency and reflect it out in our lives so that other people see it. It's all about God – from Him, through Him, and to Him are all things to Him be glory forever and ever. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, July 26th. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. Understanding why we're here is the first step in not wasting our lives. Stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us. I have a distinct memory of an event that took place when I was in high school. I was in an English class, and we were in a unit study on the subject of existentialism – "Existentialism and Man" – we were reading Camus and Sartre and the guy who wrote the story about being a cockroach – Kafka, Franz Kafka. Dennis: This was in high school? Bob: This was in high school, and Mrs. Venary [sp] was our English teacher, and Mrs. Venary said one day, she asked us, "What's most important in your life?" And I remember, we were going around the room and answering that question, and we got to me, and I don't remember what I said. If I had to guess today, I would probably have said, "One of the really important things in my life is music." I was in a band, I played guitar, I really liked music. But by the time we got to one of my classmates who was about halfway through the group, she said, "Really, the most important thing in my life is my relationship with God." And I remember thinking, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the right answer. I need to remember that next time." And then it dawned on me that if I didn't have that as the right answer when the question came around, it probably wasn't really the most important thing in my life, you know? Dennis: Yeah, and I was thinking how I would have answered it – I'm sorry that God would not have been my answer, either – athletics would have been. And I think whether you're in high school and how you would have answered it then or where you are today, the question is still a good question, and we have someone today with us on FamilyLife Today who I think is going to help you – well, maybe either realign your spiritual tires or maybe answer the question in the right way for the first time. John Piper joins us on FamilyLife Today. John, welcome to FamilyLife Today. John: Thank you, I'm glad to be here. Dennis: John is the pastor of preaching at Bethlehem Baptist Church where he has served since 1980. He and his wife, Noelle, have four sons and a daughter, live in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and he's a prolific writer. And, you know, Bob, it's not often that books come to our attention here at FamilyLife Today through our wives, but this one did. Back last Christmas Barbara came to me, and she said, "You know, there is one book I want to give our kids for Christmas." I said, "Oh, really? Who is it by?" She said, "John Piper." And I immediately thought of some of the books that I've had the privilege of reading, browsing my way through, "Desiring God," among others, and she said, "It's a new book called "Don't Waste Your Life." And I thought, "Now, that's a good title." Because we have a generation of people, I believe, who are really not getting around to the question you asked, Bob – what is most important in your life. John, you tell a story about a couple who had retired on the coast of Florida. John: Yeah, I got the story from "Reader's Digest." Bob: That's okay, Ronald Reagan got a lot of his stories from "Reader's Digest," too. There's nothing wrong with that. John: And it was written by them, so it's not told about them, and I won't give any names, but they were marveling that at, I think, age 51 and 52 or something like that, they were able to retire early, go to Florida, and the peak of their excitement about this stage in their life was that they could play softball and collect shells. And I just read that and thought, "You've got to be kidding?" Dennis: Now, we're talking about the ultimate experience in their lives? John: Evidently. I mean, I'm thinking in the last chapter of my life, I am mainly preparing to meet the judge of the universe and give an account with my little vaporous life on this earth. He is not going to ask, "Can I see your shell collection?" Bob: Who won the softball game? It's not going to matter, is it? John: It's not. And so it became a kind of paradigm story for me of the American way because tragically the AARP and most people giving counsel on what to do with your latter years are telling you to go play them away on a golf course somewhere or something, and I'm thinking, "That is not the way I want to spend my life at all let alone my last few years in the months just preceding seeing the king of the universe." Bob: And I think that's important. The message in this book, "Don't Waste Your Life," is not just about not squandering the latter years of your life, but it's about the whole of your life. It's a stewardship that we've been entrusted with, right? John: Right. Young people are making incredibly important choices early on, especially right at the juncture of early college years and post college years of "What am I going to do with my life?" And I think they're eager and ready to hear somebody to call them to a radical kind of life that has a significance about it that is eternal and deep. So that's what I've tried to talk about. Dennis: Going back to your shell collection, as I read that, I thought – and you asked the question in your book, you can't imagine someone appearing before the judgment seat and God asking to see our shell collection. And I thought, "What other kind of collections do we have?" It could be our golf scores, our trophies, our businesses, our portfolio of stocks, our home that we built, the car we drive, the wardrobe or jewelry. It could be our family. We could make the family the chief end of man. Or it could be our bank account. You know, man has been collecting stuff, John, from the beginning of time. It may not be as silly as a shell collection, but we have the wrong object of worship going all the way back to the Garden. When you were a young lad growing up, in your home there was a – was it a plaque or what was it? Was it in the kitchen, as I recall, is that right? John: Right, it was in the kitchen and probably it had as much to do with the title of the book as anything. It hung, I remember it hung up where a clock started to hang later, but I now have it in my living room at home, so it's been on the wall for 50 years of my life, at least. It says, "Only one life, 'twil soon be past, only what's done for Christ will last." And that was emblazoned on my mind as a child, that significance and lasting reality is going to come from connectedness with Jesus. If something is done to display the worth of Jesus, then that something will have value and significance, and if it didn't, it won't last. Bob: So you would say that from early on, you understood this idea of the stewardship of your life and that it needed to be focused and rightly directed. It's not something that came to you later in life? John: I would say in my high school years, as I reflected back on the kinds of things I was thinking, the kinds of things I was writing and reading – as I reviewed those, it was amazing to me how much I was thinking about it in those days. The other thing that probably affected the title of this book, "Don't Waste Your Life" is the story my dad, as an evangelist, would tell when he was doing evangelism. He came home one time and, with tears in his eyes, he said, "A man came to Christ who must have been in his 70s, and he'd been a sinner in the community for years, and people had prayed for him, and he'd resisted the Gospel, and he walked to the front, and he sat down. And after the service, as I sat beside him and counseled him, he just wept and wept, and when I asked why he was weeping he just repeated over and over, 'I've wasted it, I've wasted it.'" I'll tell you, as a teenager, that story from my dad landed on me with such power that I thought, "Never, ever, ever do I want to be able to say that – I've wasted it." So from maybe age 16, 15 on, I had this impulse in me, don't waste it, don't waste it. Dennis: I have, for some reason, been kind of chewing on Acts, chapter 13, verse 36, and it reads, "For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep, and he was buried." And I thought, you know, if that could be said of my life at the end of it, that I fulfilled God's purpose for my generation, whether you're a mother, a father, a businessman, and businesswoman, a single person, to be smack-dab in the middle of walking with God and fulfilling what He has for you, that's what you're talking about in the book. You're talking about people who have a confidence that they are fulfilling not only God's will for their lives but they're a part of a grand scheme, a bigger picture, of what God's accomplishing on this planet. John: Right, we need to help people see why the universe was created, and it wasn't created for people to become famous and for people to become powerful, it was created to display the worth and excellencies and beauty and wonders of God. And we are here to receive that excellency and reflect it out in our lives so that other people see it. It's all about God – "from Him, through Him, and to Him are all things to Him be glory forever and ever" – Romans 11:36 says. And so I think significance must be defined in terms of God – depending on Him, being guided by Him, giving Him all the praise and all the glory and all the honor and then finding lifestyles and ways of talking and thinking and feeling and acting that make God look really good to this culture. Dennis: In the '60s, your passion intensified for finding God's purpose and making sure you were about what He was doing, and it was your encounter with two different people that ultimately changed the course of your life. Why don't you share those two people that you encountered in college? John: I have three in mind, so I'm not which two you have in mind. I'll mention Dan Fuller as a living teacher who had a tremendous impact in the way I read the Bible, and then I mentioned the dead person, Jonathan Edwards, and I'll mention another dead person, died in '63, the same days as John Kennedy died – C.S. Lewis. So that triumvirate in the years, say, '64, as I began college to '68 when I went away, and then in the years '68-'71 in seminary that's where Dan Fuller and Jonathan Edwards conspired, and the key of the living teacher and the dead teacher was to show me that there is no final conflict between God's passion to be glorified and my passion to be satisfied. I had grown up, for whatever reason, I'm sure it wasn't my dad's fault or maybe even the preacher's fault, thinking you can't have both of those. Either God is going to be glorified or I'm going to be happy, because I heard – maybe it wasn't said, but this is what I heard – people would say, "Well, you should stop doing your will and do God's will." And I kind of wanted to say, "Isn't there a third alternative?" Like, maybe I would want to do God's will? Maybe I would enjoy doing God's will? And what those men showed me is that God is most glorified in me when I am most satisfied in Him; that God's glory shines in my being happy in Him. And so there isn't this necessary conflict between my pursuit of pleasures and his pursuit of glory if, in fact, my pursuit of pleasure is pleasure in him – that insight from Jonathan Edwards mainly, mediated through Dan Fuller and C.S. Lewis in his one page in "The Weight of Glory," where he said, "The problem with the world is not that we are pursuing pleasure but that we are far too easily pleased. We are like children fooling around with mudpies in the slums when we could have a holiday at the sea, and we can't imagine what it's like." And what he meant was, we're fooling around with that list you gave earlier, Dennis, about just money, even family and possessions and business. If we could see what a holiday at the sea that is a relationship with God, a delight in His beauty and power and excellencies was, then we'd see the problem in the universe is not that people are pursuing pleasure, but that they are settling for the low, fleeting, wrong, suicidal pleasures. And so that's what I learned from Lewis and Edwards and then Fuller between '68 and '71, and it changed everything. Bob: You later expressed that or referred to that as "Christian hedonism." John: Right. Bob: Hedonism is the philosophy that says the highest goal is the pursuit of pleasure. And you said if we understand the Scriptures right, that's true, but the only real pleasure we're going to find is not in what the culture tells us will bring us pleasure. John: Right, and the reason that is not in conflict with saying the highest goal is the glory of God is because God is glorified precisely in my being satisfied in the end. That was the insight that makes lights go on, I find, for a lot of people these days. Dennis: I have to read a passage that I know you're passionate about – Psalm 16:11 – "Thou will make known to me the path of life. In Thy presence is fullness of joy." And we don't believe this last third of the verse here. It says, "In Thy right hand there are pleasures forever." Frankly, it's what you described that for a number of years kept me at a distance from Christianity. I didn't believe I could have a good time; that I could truly experience pleasure and happiness and fulfillment and walk with Jesus Christ. I thought becoming a Christian was having to put on something black, put on a sour look, and be unhappy for the rest of my life. Now, I don't know where I got that picture, because I really grew up in a good church. But nonetheless I had a caricature of Christianity that I was rejecting, and it wasn't this. It wasn't the idea of a glowing, vibrant life filled with smiles and laughter and, as this says, enjoyment and pleasure. John: Right, but I think there are a lot of people who have said something like that and given it a little bit of our own twist; that is, I think there have always been rah-rah evangelistic youth crusades where we feature the athlete and the smiling beauty queen who say, "You really can have a great and happy life if you'll be a Christian." And the ordinary folks look at that and thought, "That's not quite what I'm thinking. That's not going to work for me, because I've got pimples, and I'm not strong." The difference with my message, and it's where you were going, I think, is that what I want to hold up is a joy and is a God who, in Himself, when all the beauty goes and all the strength goes and all the popularity goes and all the parties go, He's enough, and He's thrilling. You know, my wife and I were married in December of 1968, and we chose Habakkuk 3, the last four verses, I believe, of the book to be read at our wedding. I don't know it all by heart, but I can paraphrase it. It goes something like this – though the olive fail, though there be no fruit on the vines, though there be no cattle in the stall, though there be no sheep in the fold; in other words, we're talking famine and devastation, and then he says, "Yet will I rejoice in the Lord my God." Psalm 63:3 says, "The steadfast love of the Lord is better than life." Or Paul says, "To die is gain." So my message is a little more radical than what I was hearing from the rah-rah evangelistic crusade, "Yes, we can all have a good time" message but rather you may have an absolutely horrible life and smile your way all the way to heaven. In fact, 1 Corinthians 6, verse 10, Paul uses this phrase that, for me, has really stamped the way I want to talk about joy. He says, "Sorrowful yet always rejoicing." So I want there to always be a kind of minor key playing in the background of my parties and my celebrations, because I know the world is absolutely filled with pain and filled with suffering, and when I am rejoicing with those who rejoice, there is somebody very close to me weeping with those who weep, and so I just want to present an authentic call to radical pleasure at God's right hand when you may be wracked with cancer, your wife may have left you, your kids may be prodigal, your business may be failing, and you can say, "The Lord gives, and the Lord has taken away, blessed be the name of the Lord." So there's a flavor, I think, to this hedonism that I have that I hope is really realistic. Dennis: And the time to develop that kind of relationship with Jesus Christ is not when you go through the valley. The time to develop it is now. It's to become focused on Him as your absolute source of life, of pleasure, of joy, and begin the process of walking with Him moment by moment. You know, I couldn't help but think, John, as you were talking about how those of us here at FamilyLife watched Bill Bright die. The last two and a half years of his life were marked by him only having about 40 percent lung capacity, and he was literally – his body was starving for oxygen, and yet every time I saw him, and everyone else, too, he was praising God; talking about Him being his strength, his joy, his portion. He never complained. And I contrasted his life with how I've watched others die, and I thought, you know what? Bill Bright taught me how to live, and he also taught me how to die. And what I want to do with my life is I want to do the same thing. I want my deathbed to be as vigorous in the enjoyment and the pursuit of God, even though there will undoubtedly be pain, it will not be easy, but I would like it to be the way Bill Bright demonstrated as a man, and we can do that if we get into the Scripture and we find out who God is, because it's only as we know Him as He is that you can relate to Him as the God of the Universe. Bob: You talk about somebody who didn't waste his life, Dr. Bright is a great example of someone who had the right priority, the right focus; who understood the implications of the Christian faith, and it changed the direction of everything. It shaped every decision he made. And I want to encourage our listeners that's really what is at the heart of the book that you have written, John. It's called "Don't Waste Your Life," and it's a book that we have in our FamilyLife Resource Center. I think this book gives each of us a good opportunity to re-evaluate how we're doing spiritually; whether the direction of our life is rightly aimed or not, and I think your book is helpful in that evaluation process. Let me encourage our listeners – contact us to get a copy of John Piper's book, "Don't Waste Your Life." You can go online at FamilyLife.com to request a copy of the book or you can call 1-800-FLTODAY. If you go online, in the middle of the home page you'll see a red button that says "Go." If you click on that red button, it will take you right to the page where you can get more information about the book "Don't Waste Your Life." You can order online, if you'd like, or call 1-800-FLTODAY and request a copy of the book. We can have it sent out to you. If you're interested in a copy of our conversation this week with John Piper, you can order that on CD, or you can download it as an MP3 file from our website at FamilyLife.com. If you'd like the CD either order that online or call 1-800-FLTODAY. Over the last several years, one of the places where you have spoken, John, is at the Passion Conferences, and I know Beth Moore has also spoken to young people there challenging them to a wholehearted commitment to Jesus Christ. Not long ago we had Beth as a guest on FamilyLife Today, and we talked with her about her 25-year marriage to her husband Keith, about some of the ups downs. She was very candid in that interview, and this month and next month, we wanted to say thank you to those of you who can help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today with a donation of any amount by sending you a copy of this CD that includes our conversation with Beth Moore. Simply go to our website, FamilyLife.com, and click on the button that says, "Make a Donation," or call 1-800-FLTODAY and make a donation over the phone. When you do, mention that you'd like the CD with Beth Moore and someone on our team will make sure that gets sent to you. Or if you're making your donation online, when you come to the keycode box just type in the word "free," and we'll know that you want the CD sent out to you. Again, it's our way of saying thanks for your financial support of the ministry of FamilyLife Today, and we appreciate hearing from you. Well, tomorrow we're going to continue our conversation with Dr. John Piper. We're going to talk about the call to a cross-centered life and why we need to make sure that we're not sugar-coating our presentation of the Gospel. Some folks may respond better if we tell them the hard truth, and we'll talk more about that tomorrow. I hope you can join us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
Messy Grace (Part 1) - Kaleb KaltenbachMessy Grace (Part 2) - Kaleb KaltenbachMessy Grace (Part 3) - Kaleb KaltenbachFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Loving My Gay Parents Guest: Caleb Kaltenbach From the series: Messy Grace (Day 1 of 3) Bob: Caleb Kaltenbach's parents divorced when he was young. His mom came out as a lesbian; his dad came out as a gay man. That gave Caleb a unique perspective on life. Caleb: I remember marching in a Gay Pride parade one time and seeing all these—I'll use quotations, “Christians”—holding up signs, saying, “God hates you!” I remember that so vividly, almost as if it happened yesterday. I remember looking at my mom, looking at her in the eye, and saying, “Mom, why are they acting like this?” I was about nine or ten—somewhere around there. She looked at me and she said, “Well, Caleb, they're Christians; and Christians hate gay people.” Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, July 2nd. Our host is Dennis Rainey; I'm Bob Lepine. Caleb Kaltenbach grew up in what I think we'd all agree was a somewhat messy family situation. He had to learn, eventually, how to apply what he calls “messy grace.” Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Monday edition. You know, every family is messy at some level; right? But there are— Dennis: No doubt. I was just withholding the answer there because— Bob: It's self-evident; isn't it? Dennis: Wow! I mean, you get six children, two imperfect parents; I mean, what are you going to get? You're going to get some—some messiness. This is where I think the Bible has all kinds of relevance, because it's about messy people. It's about imperfect people / imperfect stories and how God, in His sovereign majesty, works out a story that honors Him. Bob: Yes; I love what Matt Chandler says— 2:00 —he says, “It's okay not to be okay; it's just not okay to stay there.” [Laughter] That's what the story of redemption's all about! Dennis: Well, we have a guest with us today who has quite a story. Now, I just want you to know—as a listener, I don't know what you're doing; but set it aside—because what you're going to hear is going to be riveting—I am confident of that. He has written a book called Messy Grace, and it is subtitled: How a Pastor with Gay Parents Learned to Love Others Without Sacrificing Conviction. Now, that is a mouthful! Bob: Yes. Dennis: We have with us Caleb Kaltenbach. Welcome to the broadcast. Caleb: It's great to be here. Thank you for having me. Dennis: Caleb, this lead line over the title of your book, How a Pastor with Gay Parents Learned to Love Others—wow! Take us back to the home you grew up in. I mean, I've heard a lot of stories; but I'm not sure I've heard one about a pastor who came from that kind of background. 3:00 Caleb: I was raised in Columbia, Missouri, and Kansas City—actually, I started out in Columbia. Both my parents were professors at the University of Missouri-Columbia and at local schools there—taught subjects like philosophy, law, rhetoric, and English literature. When I was two, they got a divorce; and both of them entered into same-sex relationships. My mom went into a 22-year-long monogamous relationship with her partner, Vera—she was a psychologist. Now, my dad on the other hand—he had several different relationships. He never had one relationship that lasted. I actually—I didn't even know about my dad until I got to be college-age—maybe just graduated from college—but I kind of always had my suspicions; I don't know. But I was raised by three gay parents. Bob: This is at a time that is unlike today, when these relationships tended to be more closeted. Were your parents “out” about their sexual preference? Caleb: My dad was in the closet. My mom and her partner, as I said—they did go to Kansas City. 4:00 They were very loud and proud, and very out. They were on the board of directors for the Kansas City chapter of GLAD. They were activists. They took me with them to Gay Pride parades, and bars, and clubs when I was preschool age/elementary age. I remember going with them to activist events. I remember marching in a Gay Pride parade one time and seeing all these—I'll use quotations, “Christians”—holding up signs, saying, “God hates you!” If that wasn't offensive enough, they were spraying people with water and urine at one of the particular parades. Dennis: Oh! Bob: Oh! Caleb: I remember that so vividly, almost as if it happened yesterday. I remember just, right now to this day, I remember looking at my mom, looking at her in the eye, and saying, “Mom, why are they acting like this?” I was about nine or ten—somewhere around there. She looked at me and she said, “Well, Caleb, they're Christians; and Christians hate gay people.” That stuck with me. My whole childhood, I was raised to believe that. 5:00 I saw that when AIDS was developing in America and spreading, and we were learning more about it. Many of my mom's friends contracted it. I remember one man, named Louis, who was a young man—his family was Christian. They already didn't accept him, because he was in a same-sex relationship. When he got AIDS, they really didn't want to have anything to do with him. We went and visited him in a hospital one time. Dennis: Yes; you describe a scene in your book that is pretty— Caleb: Right. Dennis: —pretty amazing. Caleb: Yes; and the most disturbing thing was—obviously, it's disturbing to see somebody die from AIDS, if you've ever seen that—but seeing his family being so nonchalant, while they were reading their Bibles, lined up against the wall, like they were waiting for a firing squad to come get them. That, to me, was unforgivable at that time. Dennis: They were not next to his bed— Caleb: No. Dennis: —holding his hand, speaking love to him. They were kind of huddled together in another section of the room, not caring for him at all. Caleb: No; and they wouldn't even talk to us. I remember my mom looked at me and she said, “Hey, Christians hate gay people.” 6:00 Bob: So you grew up with that as your view of Christians and Christianity. At the same time, you're going to elementary school. You had to be the only kid in your school who had two moms. Caleb: Oh, I didn't tell anybody that I had two moms—I didn't tell anybody. Even as a young kid, I wondered about my dad; but I didn't tell anybody because, even though, at that age, I didn't think there was anything wrong about that relationship—at the same time, I knew that I was different. I did not want to get made fun of. Bob: So you just would tell folks you lived with your mom, and your mom and dad were divorced; and that was it? Caleb: And I would go back and forth; absolutely. Dennis: Was it 50-50? Caleb: No; I spent most of the time with my dad. Dennis: I've been looking forward to talking with you; because I'm seeing children today grow up in homes, where they have two same-sex parents. I'm just wondering: “What's happening in the life of that child? What's that child thinking/feeling?” What was going on in your life, emotionally, if you can think back and articulate kind of what you were thinking and feeling? Caleb: I remember Vera, my mother's partner. 7:00 We did not get along at all, almost from Day One, when I was a little kid. There was a real jealousy/competition factor with her and my mother. I remember learning, at a very young age, that Vera really hated men. Even though I was a little boy, I was still a man—representative of that. If I had time to take you through her past / my mom and dad's past, you would totally understand where they would get that hatred from. I even understand it today. I don't think that's the right response, but I understand how that could be a response. This is where I think parenting is so incredibly important on two levels. Number one, parents have got to learn that they have to deal with their issues; because whatever their burdens are, when they don't deal with them and seek healing from them, they pass them onto their kids. Their kids now have to bear the burdens that their parents do. But also, our kids—and I'm very mindful of this with my own kids— 8:00 —are always watching me: and how I handle stressful situations and how I handle life—because they model their achievement of emotional balance through watching me and their mother. We want to do that in a Christ-like way so, when they see that life is difficult / that life is tough, they see us turning to God. They don't see us raging, or ignoring them, or doing things like that, or being abusive. Dennis: So back to the question, Caleb. As a little boy, growing up—obviously, you said you spent most of your time with your dad. Caleb: Yes. Dennis: Were you ashamed that you had two mommies? Caleb: I wasn't ashamed; I did not want to be made fun of. They never came together to any events. I knew that there was something wrong. What was really ironic was, even if you were to look at Vera and my mother's relationship, Vera took on the role of the man in the relationship. Then my mom took on the role of the woman. Even within their relationship, they still mirrored the image that the Creator set up in the covenant of marriage. Even though it was not the right image, it's always been fascinating that, even within that, we still mirror what God originally set up. Does that make sense? 9:00 Dennis: Yes. Bob: Your dad, you said, was a bachelor. Caleb: Yes. Bob: He's who you spent most of your time with. At what age did you start to become aware of the fact: “Hey, my family's different; I've got two moms.” You're starting to understand human sexuality for yourself at—I guess, 10, 11, or 12 years old—whatever age it was. When did you start to put the pieces together that the family you were in was unusual? Caleb: When I was in elementary school, because I would see everybody else talk about their parents and so on and so forth. I started watching my dad. I knew that he did not have a girlfriend. I knew that he spent time around one person in particular. He had different people over, and then I wouldn't see them for a while. There was an ebb and flow that just was not ever consistent—there was hardly any consistency. By the time I got to high school, my worldview was very whacked-out. I mean, I did not have a Christian worldview, obviously. Bob: But when you grow up in that situation and that's your normal, a lot of young people just think: “This is normal. 10:00 “It may not be the same as everybody else's, but my situation is not a wrong situation.” Caleb: Yes; but the thing is that there's no standard then. The Bible provides a standard in holy living—sanctification—and how we should live our lives in every aspect / in every domain of our life. Dennis: And you didn't have that. Caleb: No; I didn't have that. My worldview had no standard; it had no basis. It was always shifting. It was like culture—culture is always changing, because people always change; because there's no focal point. When you follow Jesus, He's the focal point; He's the standard; He's by which you measure everything and make your decisions. Bob: Did you have any sexual ethic?—any personal sexual ethic? Caleb: No; I didn't. I mean, I never had premarital sex or anything like that. I never got into anything destructive; but I was of the mindset that anything you wanted to do, as long as it didn't hurt anybody, was okay. You know, more of a Modern Family-type mindset, I guess you would say. Bob: Right. So what your mom and dad had chosen to do— 11:00 —you looked at that and said: “That's their choice,” or “That's who they are. They're just being true to who they are.” Caleb: “That's good for them.” I've never experienced same-sex attraction. My mom would always ask me a lot, “Well, it is okay, Caleb; it is okay.” Even as a young kid, I would say: “I've always liked girls. I'm sorry; I don't…” Some of the times, I felt like my mom was trying to talk me into it—you know, again, they were activists. They were very justice oriented. Dennis: Growing up in this home, where you didn't have a healthy relationship between a mother and a father, in a biblical sense, and without a standard—I was just wondering how you handled—you sure didn't have the culture shoving it down your throat as it does today; but you weren't confused, it doesn't sound like, at all. Caleb: No; I thought it was okay for them to do whatever; but you've got to understand, from the very beginning, my parents raised me differently. I mean, I'll just give you an example—I don't write about this in the book—but one of the first movies I ever saw, as a kid, was An American Werewolf in London. Bob: Wow. Caleb: Still scares me today, thinking about it. 12:00 But you think about that!—there was no standard; there were no boundaries. That's one of the things I realized about my childhood—that there were no boundaries. There were boundaries with my parents, but they're very long-stretched. When I would step over one—usually, when I would question their sexuality or their choice to be in a same-sex relationship, even at a young age—the consequences were very swift. That's how I grew up, so I had that same justice within me. I got invited to go to this Bible study when I was in high school—led by a high schooler for high schoolers. I thought: “This is perfect! I'm going to go, and I'm going to pretend to be a Christian. I'm going to be a ninja-Christian. I'm going to go in there…” Bob: [Laughter] A ninja-Christian? Caleb: A ninja-Christian. Dennis: Now, hold it! What's that? Caleb: Well, you know: “I'm going to go in there and I'm going—I'm going to pretend to talk the lingo. I'm going to learn about the Bible and dismantle their faith with my questions,”—that was my plan. I never owned a Bible. 13:00 I grabbed a New Revised Standard Version, and I didn't know what that meant. I just figured they revised something, and I took it. [Laughter] You've got to understand—I had never been in a Christian household before in my entire life—like an evangelical, conservative Christian household. Imagine me walking in, and the first thing I notice on the wall—I looked at my friend that came with me and I said, “Why are there framed pictures of sheep, and lions, and Bible verses all over the house?” I looked at my friend and I said: “Is this part of the deal? If I turn Christian, do I have to get a sheep picture?” [Laughter] I mean, because I had never seen so many framed pictures of sheep before in my life! [Laughter] Dennis: I want to take you back to the Gay Pride parade that you marched in as a boy. You gave some—really, I can't imagine, from a descriptive standpoint—having somebody spit on you, and toss water, and, as you said, urine on a little boy and have so many people hating you because you were marching in a parade on behalf of the whole LGBTQ community. 14:00 What would you say was the most hurtful and hateful thing you experienced, as a boy, growing up, from the Christian community? I'm picturing you going to this Bible study—it's like I would think you would be a ninja, going into that thing; because you'd had some harm done to you by the Christian community. Was there anything done, as you grew up as a boy, that you would characterize as the most hurtful and hateful thing? Caleb: Yes; one time my mother and I were driving through Kansas to visit my family. There were these Christians on the street corners, holding up signs. I remember my mother's car was a purple RAV4. You've got to understand—she had bumper—she was very loud and proud—she had bumper stickers on there, like: “Lorena Bobbitt for Surgeon General” and stuff like that. I mean, “Graduate of Thelma & Louise Finishing School.” I mean, you'd spot it a mile away; you know? I remember, my mom didn't do anything to them. 15:00 She pulled up, and they saw her stickers. They started cussing at her, and they started yelling at her and spitting. I just looked at my mom. She started crying in that moment, because she felt humiliated. I remember thinking about that, and I remember— Dennis: How old were you as a boy? Caleb: I must have been close to middle school. It was not my best moment—I rolled down the window and flipped them the bird. I got a hold of their newsletter. They put that on the front of it, saying, “Look at our persecution.” Hopefully, that's gone out of print. I just remember my mom and her reaction of them immediately judging her without getting to know her, and just the humiliation and the tears, and just the pain that she had. It was so raw that, when I looked at a Christian, I thought about that. Bob: So when somebody comes to you and says, “Do you want to come over to a Bible study at So-and-so's house?” 16:00 You were thinking: “I want to come blow this thing up. I don't want to come and be a part of this group. I want to come and dismantle it.” Caleb: I was ready for war; I was ready for war. Bob: And yet, you walk in. There are Bible verses and pictures of sheep all over the place. Caleb: Yes. Dennis: You were probably thinking about slaughtering some sheep at that point. [Laughter] Caleb: I didn't know what was going to happen. I didn't know if we were going to sacrifice a chicken downstairs in the Bible study. I didn't know what would happen. So we go down there, and we're all reading through 1 Corinthians. I'm in 1 Chronicles, and they're all reading verses from Paul. Then I read a verse about somebody getting slaughtered—not a sheep though—a person. They said, “Well, Caleb, where are you?” I said, “Well, I'm in 1 Chronicles.” “Oh! You're in the Old Testament!” I said: “So, I guess there's a new one. There's updated 2.0!” or something like that. I was so embarrassed, but I kept on going back; because I'm like, “I'm not going to let these people get me down.” Dennis: Did they know where you came from? Caleb: I think a couple of them did. Definitely, when I didn't even know there was a New Testament, they were like: “Oh look! Somebody that's not a Christian right there.” 17:00 Bob: Wow. Caleb: Some of the attitudes changed and softened towards me; because, when I first said that I was in 1 Chronicles: “Is there a New Testament?”—you know, a girl said, “Yes, the New Testament” as if I was supposed to know that. “I'm sorry. I must have one of those new Bibles,” you know? I didn't know. Bob: Right. Caleb: But I kept on going. It's funny; I was expecting to disprove the worldview of Christianity, but I found Somebody very different in the Gospels than what I had experienced on the street corners or the hospital rooms. Dennis: You'd actually had a young lady—prior to this Bible study; hadn't you?—who had given you what you thought was a love note? Caleb: [Sigh] Yes. That was painful. It was nice and painful at the same time, because she—you know, for elementary age, she was hot. I thought she dug my chili, but she didn't. It was a Jesus note. I remember opening it and thinking to myself: “Oh, really? A Jesus note?” I was hoping for: “Caleb, you're debonair. You're all this and more.” 18:00 You know, she explained the gospel to me. I threw away the note and told her I'd think about it. But even to this day, I still remember it; because she's probably one of the only Christians that I had a positive experience with. Actually, when I think about it now, she actually took the time to sit down and to write that out, as an elementary age schoolgirl—writing that out, letting us know about the gospel. That was huge when I think about it, and I tell my kids about that all the time. Bob: Okay; so if you could go back and have a do-over of your middle school/high school experience, and you could coach the Christians in your school on how to—how to reach out to a guy like you, what would you tell them to do differently than they did? Caleb: I would say: “Number one, don't assume that everybody else is at the same spiritual level that you are.” Bob: Yes. Caleb: I mean, even when I preach every Sunday, I don't make that, you know— Bob: —assumption. 19:00 Caleb: —assumption; exactly! Everybody's at a different spiritual level. The second thing that I would say is: “Don't automatically engage in a Bible study, where you think that everybody obviously knows: ‘Hey, we're going to go to 1 Corinthians,' ‘We're going to go to…Paul,'—this kind of thing. If you have a new person, you have no idea if they're new or not.” “Don't assume that everybody's on the same page as you when it comes to politics,” because I wasn't whatsoever. I was raised by two extremely liberal parents. I was nowhere near, and they immediately brought up politics. They immediately started trashing politicians, and so on and so forth. You've got to understand—my mother was very political! I can be very political. This was a huge turn-off; because I'm like: “Okay; these people are assuming I am where they are. These people just are moving, and I'm lost. I don't even know that there's a New Testament. They're ripping people, politically, that I know that my mom likes. 20:00 “So far, it feels like the same thing, except I'm sitting down with the enemy. It feels like I'm sitting in the Trojan horse almost”; you know?—that's what it felt like in that moment. Dennis: Just listening to where you'd come from, I'm amazed you became a believer. It had to be God chasing you down—and His love and His grace. Caleb: It was the sovereignty of God, absolutely; 100 percent. Dennis: Yes. Caleb: I mean, I learned——the more that I studied Jesus, Dennis, I learned that He had very deep theological convictions and expectations for how we should live our life. He also had very deep relationships with people—who are far from God and not like Him, which, I guess, was everybody was not like Him—but still, He pursued people that the religious culture would not. He pursued people that even secular society wouldn't either. He really marched to the beat of His own drum. Dennis: Yes; you tell the story in your book about how Jesus approached the woman caught in adultery— 21:00 Caleb: Yes. Dennis: —and how the religious community didn't rescue her. They were ready to stone her. Caleb: No. Dennis: And how Jesus reached out and protected her. I think that's who you encountered in that Bible study. You ultimately found the Jesus Christ of the Gospels and of the New Testament, who fulfilled the Old Testament. He became flesh and showed us what real love looks like and what God's love for us is today. Bob: Yes; we've reflected, often here, on what John says about Jesus in John 1:14, which is that He was the picture for us—He is the revelation of the Father—but it says He's full of grace and truth. He's full of both—there's grace and there's truth. I think that's what we're having to learn to wrap our hearts and heads around, as followers of Jesus today: “How can we be full of truth?” 22:00 Well, you say it: “How Can We Learn to Love Others Without Sacrificing Conviction?”—that's the subtitle of the book you've written—called Messy Grace. I'd encourage our listeners to get a copy of it and read your story—read the things you've learned along the way, and how you've coached us today to do better as we engage with people who don't think the way we think about issues. Caleb Kaltenbach's book is called Messy Grace. We've got it in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can order a copy from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to order a copy. Again, the toll-free number is 1-800-358-6329—1-800-FL-TODAY—or go online to order at FamilyLifeToday.com. We want to take a minute here and just say a quick word of thanks to those of you who are, not just regular listeners to FamilyLife Today— 23:00 —and while we're glad to have all of our regular listeners tuning in—thank you for doing that. We want to give a special shout-out to those of you who make this program possible. I don't know how many listeners realize this; but in your community, there are a small number of people who have made it possible for you to hear what you've heard today. They are friends of this ministry, who will, either on occasion or on a regular basis, support FamilyLife Today with a donation. During the summer months, we often see a decline in the number of folks we hear from, who are helping to support this program. If you're a regular listener—if programs like the one you've heard today are helpful for you and your family / if you think this is an important conversation to be having in your community—would you join the FamilyLife® team and help make this program possible on an ongoing basis? You can do that by giving, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. And you can mail your donation to us. 24:00 Our address is FamilyLife Today, PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. Now, tomorrow, we want to talk about the difference between accepting someone and approving of someone; because, as we'll hear from Caleb Kaltenbach, that's an important distinction. I hope you can be back with us again tomorrow. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
Messy Grace (Part 1) - Kaleb KaltenbachMessy Grace (Part 2) - Kaleb KaltenbachMessy Grace (Part 3) - Kaleb KaltenbachFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Loving Our Gay Friends and Neighbors Guest: Caleb Kaltenbach From the series: Messy Grace (Day 3 of 3) Bob: There is a right way and a wrong way for us to hold fast to biblical truth and still have healthy relationships with our LGBT friends. Caleb Kaltenbach offers an example of the wrong way to go about that. Caleb: Somebody named Joe will meet somebody in their workplace, who identifies as LGBT. So, Joe becomes his friend. Joe thinks that he has to let him know about Leviticus, and Genesis 19, and Ephesians 5, and Romans 1—and we'll throw in 1 Corinthians 6—but without building a relationship and getting to know him, all of a sudden, he will throw all these verses at this gay man over here that, now, realized he's being treated like a project. He walks away, rejecting everything / feeling wounded. Joe walks away, feeling like some kind of accomplished martyr; but really, what Joe has done is—he has pushed this man further away from God. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, July 4th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. 1:00 How can we represent Jesus well as we build healthy relationships with people who don't live like us, or think like us, or believe like us? That's what we're going to talk about today. Stay with us. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition, here, on Independence Day in the United States. I'm guessing there are not many people in America we could talk to who grew up in a home where mom and dad got a divorce; mom moved in with her lesbian partner; dad remained a bachelor and later came out of the closet as a gay man; and where the son, who grew up in that situation, wound up going to Bible college, committing his life to fulltime ministry. I'm guessing that's a relatively unusual story. Dennis: I'm guessing it is, too; but it's what makes this book, Messy Grace, a compelling read. I think this is a safe way for a mom/a dad, a husband/a wife, who is trying to figure out: 2:00 “How do I relate to people who don't believe like I do?”—this is a safe place to go read—and maybe something that some groups of people need to dig into and do a Bible study around—and just interact around these chapters; because I think what our guest on the show today has done is—he's invited all of us into his life / into a world we don't know a whole lot about. By doing so, he's coaching us as the son of two gay moms / as the son of a father, who after divorcing his mom, came out as a homosexual as well. You know, I just think—as you said, Bob—there's not that many that can offer that kind of insight and coach us from that standpoint. Caleb Kaltenbach joins us again on FamilyLife Today. Caleb, welcome back. Caleb: Hey, it's great to be here. Dennis: Bob gave a good overview of your life. He hit something kind of quickly that I want you to unpack for us. Your moms had thrown you out of the house when you said you were becoming a follower of Christ; your dad had done virtually the same. 3:00 What did they say when you said you wanted to go to a Bible school? Caleb: Again, my mother's partner was a psychologist—a PhD / very smart. Both of my parents were university professors. When I told them that I wanted to go to a Bible college—and in their minds, a narrow-minded Bible college—it did not go over at all. They just said: “You're paying for everything on your own. You—there is no way we're going to help you out with it—nothing is going to happen there,” and “I can't believe that you would even consider that. You're going to wind up homeless on the street; and you're going to be eating ramen noodles your whole life, if you can afford those.” Bob: But their view did soften over time, because one of them helped you get a loan; didn't they? Caleb: Yes; my dad eventually—because he saw that I was not backing down. It's part of my German stubbornness, I think—we don't back down too easily. I said, “This is what I'm doing, with or without my family, because I feel like God's call is that strong.” 4:00 I said, “I'm going forward with this.” My dad eventually helped me to get my first loan—that's what they did for me. I spent my weekends preaching in small, country churches to earn money for college; washed dishes in the cafeteria; did everything I could; but I really cut my teeth in Bible college by preaching at a lot of small, country churches. Dennis: How did they handle your background, or did you keep it a secret from them? Caleb: No; because I wanted people to know what they were getting into. I remember the first church I ever preached in was in Kansas—small town. We had six people in the church—the youngest one was 60. They wanted to start a youth group—it was going to be a youth group of 40-year-olds. [Laughter] I told them about my background, and they didn't like that too much. The second church I was at—I was there for about 18 months. It was in Missouri, and I was near a town called Nevada—[first “a” is long]. It should be called Nevada—[same pronunciation as the state]—but everybody called it Nevada [long “a”] in Missouri. It was near Fort Scott, Kansas. I preached there for 18 months. 5:00 Twenty-five people in the church / fifty people in the town—we were the largest church, per capita, in the world at the time, at best. Bob: Yes; right. Dennis: Right. Caleb: I kind of eased into the conversation about my parents, then; but there was one Sunday that was very, very profound to them. I kept on asking my mom to come to church with me to hear me preach. I was only, I think, at that time, a junior or a sophomore in college. I'd only had one preaching class at my Bible college, and I just really—that's how I learned how to preach. My mom finally came with me. She wouldn't come back the next Sunday; but it was a good thing because I got there—and there were two elders waiting for me on the front doorstep—they said, “Caleb, we'd like to talk to you.” They took me to the back room—there were really only two rooms / there was a front room, and there was a back room. They looked at me; and they said, “If you want to keep preaching here, don't you ever bring somebody like your mother again.” I was floored. I said, “Excuse you?” They basically said: “We don't like those kinds of people. They make us feel uncomfortable. 6:00 “We are not a church that feels comfortable with these people.” So, I said, “I quit!” They said: “Well, you can't quit today. You need to preach.” I said: “No, no, no, no. Out of all the things you want me to do today, preaching should not be one of them—trust me.” “No; we need you to preach.” I ripped up my sermon, and I preached an evangelistic message. I walked out; I got in my car; and I drove away. I said, “Lord, if You ever give me the chance to be able to lead a church—steward it with that opportunity—I want a church that is filled with people who are broken, because that's what the church is.” The church is really a beautiful mosaic of broken lives that God has united together to glorify Himself. Jesus did not die on the cross for a little members-only country club that's really a Pharisee factory—that's not what He did! He died on the cross for broken people, because only God can put broken people back together. Dennis: I have to wonder, Caleb, what the homosexual community thinks about you when they hear these stories. 7:00 Obviously, they are going to give you more “grace” / more freedom to speak. But does this gain you favor with them?—that you are speaking of them as they ought to be spoken of—people who are made in the image of God? Caleb: I think it does. I try to go a little bit further than that to help Christians to understand the LGBT community. I think there's always going to be a line with me and the LGBT community; because, at the end of the day, I believe God's Word is true. I believe in the covenant of marriage—that is always going to be there, so that's the line that will never be crossed. But I think there is a respect there. I've been told by several people in the community that my book has a very gracious tone to it, and they appreciate that. I think they can't argue with the experience, but I try to get a lot of Christians to understand the LGBT community. I think there are some in the LGBT community that really appreciate this, because I remember a conversation I had with my mom one time. 8:00 My mom—I don't know how we got in this conversation—but she said, “You know, Caleb, in the last several years in my relationship with Vera, we were not intimate at all.” You know, first of all, gross! I mean, I don't want to hear that from my mom; but I immediately looked at her and I said: “So, you're not a lesbian anymore. You haven't been intimate for years.” And she said: “Well, sure I am! Those are my people. I have relationships there. I'm part of a community. I'm part of a cause and a movement. I have grace there.” I said, “Well, Mom, you just described the church.” And she said: “No, I didn't. Why would I go somewhere that would make me feel less about myself?” It really dawned on me that, for my mom—she never identified as a lesbian or with the LGBT community because of who she wanted to be intimate with. I mean, even in the ever-growing acronym of the LGBTQQIIAA—I think the last “A” now stands for ally, where you can identify with the LGBT community and still be straight at the same time— 9:00 —because I think the primary thing there for a lot of people is no longer: “This is whom I want to have sex with,”—now, it is: “Who are the people that I identify with?” It really has become more of a philosophy and an ideology. Here's where a lot of Christians will misstep—I want to be careful not to say, “mistake,”— but they will do things out of order. Somebody named Joe will meet somebody in their workplace, who identifies as LGBT—like a gay a man. Joe becomes his friend. Joe thinks that, you know, he has to, at some point, let him know about Leviticus, and Genesis 19, and Ephesians 5, and Romans 1—and we'll throw in 1 Corinthians 6—which, I believe all those chapters, completely / I believe them, word for word—I believe they are true. But without building a relationship and getting to know him, all of a sudden, he will throw all these verses at this man. This gay man over here, who thought he was getting a new friend, now, realized he has been treated like a project; and he walks away, rejecting everything / feeling wounded. Joe walks away, feeling like some kind of accomplished martyr; but really, what Joe has done is— 10:00 —he has pushed this man further away from God. Dennis: Yes. Caleb: Here is the other thing—Joe is telling him, “Hey, do not define yourself by your sexual orientation.” But when Joe thinks, “Hey, the most important thing I've got to address first is ‘Who you want to be intimate with?'”—you have just reduced them down to their sexual orientation. The irony is—you have done to them what you've asked them not to do to themselves. I think that, as we get to know people—no matter who they are / no matter what kind of life choice they might be in—when we get to know them—and I believe that God gives opportunity for us to have difficult conversations in the context of trust and relationship—I really believe that. I believe that, if we think deeper about LGBT community / if we think deeper about this—to where, for them, it is an identity—and we say: “Okay; instead of trying to fix you—I'll leave that up to God—I'll point you to the cross, and tell you the truth; but I'm going to help you identify with Jesus, first and foremost.” 11:00 He's pretty good at life change. Dennis: And you are going to offer a community to them. Caleb: Absolutely; because we have to bring them over to our community, because nobody is going to leave one community if they don't feel like another community is safe. Dennis: Yes; it truly is an alternative lifestyle that is worth it though. Caleb: Yes; it is. Bob: When you brought your mom to church and she heard you preach, what was the conversation like after that on the way home? Caleb: She was very affirming. My mom has always been affirming of me—she's always been a big fan of me. So— Bob: “You're a good speaker.” Caleb: Yes; “You're a good speaker.” I think she looks at me as some kind of civil rights leader or something like that; you know? Bob: You've got good things to say / you're calling people to justice—that kind of thing? Caleb: Absolutely. Bob: There did come a time, though, where she started to soften to the message that you were preaching; right? Caleb: Yes; well, actually, there were two times. The first time was when I eventually graduated from Bible college. 12:00 I moved to Southern California; I lived out there for 11 years and worked at a church called Shepherd Church / Shepherd of the Hill Church. She came out, and she visited our multi-site campus one Sunday. When she heard the message, afterwards—it was funny—we were driving down [Hwy.] 101. We were almost—both of us a fatality; because she said, “I think I might be closer to accepting Christ.” When she said that, I just—I don't know what happened—I just lost control of the steering wheel. We went into the other lane. People started honking. I led my mom to cuss, at that point, by accident because she was afraid; but it was just such a unique experience. [Laughter] That was not the point that she accepted Christ; but she was softening, and she was getting to the point at that juncture in her life. Bob: So, what was the second time? Caleb: I got married in 2004—a beautiful Latina woman—she is this gorgeous lady. [Laughter] 13:00 Finally, I wanted to preach after 11 years. We moved to Dallas, Texas, to go pastor a church. When we moved there, both of my parents, separately of one another, moved there to be closer to our family. I had never really lived in like a five-mile radius of my parents since I was two; but then, my parents floored me when they said, “Can we start attending your church?” Dennis: independent of each other. Caleb: Yes; independent! They both started attending my church, and it was fascinating. What was even more annoying is that my church treated them better than I did—they loved my parents. This was a catalyst for my parents to come closer to Jesus, because they finally were around a group of people that treated them like people and not like evangelistic projects—it was huge. So, then— Dennis: I want to stop there because we had Rosaria Butterfield on FamilyLife Today, and she instructed our listeners, as well as Bob and me, how important hospitality is to the homosexual community. 14:00 That sounds like what happened in your church in Dallas—how they invited your mom and dad into community and into their homes to be able to relate to them and get to know them. Caleb: Absolutely, and I think that we should do that with everybody, period, in our churches. I mean, if you invite somebody over to your house, you know what? You're going to treat them like a guest—you're going to extend hospitality to them. At our church, every Sunday, we're always expecting guests from all walks of life; and we have people from all walks of life. You know, not everybody at my church in Dallas was excited about it, but there were quite a few who were; so, the summer of 2013, we had an opportunity to move back to Simi Valley—it was my wife's hometown; she loves it there; we have a lot of friends there. We love Southern California. My wife loves Disneyland—loves Disneyland. So, we moved back. Two weeks before we moved back, both my parents gave their lives to the Lord—both of them— Bob: —independent of one another? 15:00 Caleb: —independent of one another. Dennis: You've got to share how that happened. I mean, there is too much of a drama here and too much of a history—not to just say: “Here's what my mom did,” “Here's what my dad did.” Caleb: I remember talking with my mom; and she had been in a hospital, because she was having some health issues. She had been praying with a lot of people. She said, “Caleb, I believe that I'm a Christian.” We talked about it, and I talked to her about what she believed. I really believe, with all my heart, that she was and that she still is a Christian. Now, does she believe everything that I believe, theologically? No; she doesn't. Does she believe the fundamentals—the orthodoxy? Yes; she does. Is she still working out her salvation with fear and trembling / the sanctification process?—absolutely. God is working that in her. There is a lot of emotional hurt and pain, throughout the years, that she has to tread through; but I truly believe that she is saved. Bob: I think you raise an important point, which is: 16:00 “When somebody comes to faith, and when they do affirm the essentials of the faith, they come in with a background / with a story—with a lot of things that may have to get worked through. We need to be patient, and let people process, and let them learn from the Word of God / by the Spirit of God things that it may have taken us a while to learn.” Caleb: I tell our congregation all the time—and actually, I had a meeting with different leaders the weekend before my book released, Messy Grace. I remember in this meeting, I told our volunteers, and our leaders, and our staff, and our elder team the same thing that I say on Sunday morning—I said: “Hey, at this church, we give people margin in their lives to experience God. We don't expect people to automatically get their act together when they start attending after the third week, or the fourth week, or the fifth week. “We need to give that margin, not only for them, but also for God; because here's the deal—salvation is instantaneous; but usually, it's a process for people to get to that point; and sanctification is a process— 17:00 Bob: Right. Caleb: —“of God tearing down our prideful walls and making us more into His image. So, we give God margin to work His process.” It's not that we don't have tough conversations; it's not that we don't do church discipline when that has to be done; but there's—everybody in our church is taking their next step with Jesus somewhere. Bob: What about your dad? What was his story? Caleb: I was over at his house—his apartment, actually—and I remember I was helping him sort through some books. Unfortunately, now, my dad has Alzheimer's. He actually lives closer with us in Simi Valley; but back then, Alzheimer's was setting in, but I hadn't seen it yet. My dad has always been a little disorganized, but I was helping sort through some books. As we were just sitting there, talking and sorting through books, my dad said: “Caleb, I know I would go to church every now and then”—at the Episcopal Church—“but more than ever, now, I think I see that Jesus really does love me. 18:00 “I just feel that I have a different relationship with Him. I honestly believe that I believe in Him, and my whole relationship is at another level. I really believe that I'm saved.” I remember hearing that from my dad, again, and thinking to myself, “You've got to be kidding me!” I mean, this is the guy that grounded me when I got baptized / that kicked me out of the house. This is the guy that made fun of me for believing in Christianity because it was illogical—it was not rational; it did not fit his materialistic/physical-focused worldview—and now, completely shift. Here is a big lesson I learned from that, guys. I learned that people base so much of their view of who God is and who Jesus is off how we treat them. I learned that because, when my parents were around people who treated them like people and not like projects— 19:00 —and really lived out what Jesus says in Matthew 5:46—and actually, 43-48—and what Jesus said in Luke 6:35, when He says: “Hey, love your enemies. Do good. Lend to them, because God is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. Be merciful as your heavenly Father is merciful.” You know, I'm thinking about that. It's in those moments—when people experience God working through us—they see maybe Jesus is different. If I'm going to be honest—when I was sitting in that Bible study in high school, and sitting around and engaging, and when they really knew that I was not saved, their tone changed with me. When their tone changed with me, they became more caring; and when they became more caring and treated me differently, something happened in my heart—something happened. Bob: Can I just read the verses that you referenced?—Matthew, Chapter 5, starting in verse 43— 20:00 —Jesus says: “You have heard it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He makes His sun to rise on the evil and on the good; sends the rain on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” That's strong stuff for all of us to hear, but that's what God's calling us to; isn't it? Caleb: Especially when you think of the first century—that Jesus was probably referring to Roman soldiers when He said, “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,”— 21:00 —“Love the people who have killed your family. Love the people who have killed your brother, and love the occupying force.” We have trouble loving other politicians in this country. Dennis: Caleb, we're going to come back after Bob tells listeners how they can get a copy of the book, but here is your assignment—I'm going to ask you to seat your mom and your dad across the table from you and to fulfil the Fifth Commandment. I'm going to ask you to honor and speak a tribute to both of them for what they did do right. Are you willing to do that? Caleb: Absolutely, because they did do a lot right. Bob: Let me just mention that the book that you've written, Caleb, is called Messy Grace. It tells your story of growing up in the family you grew up in and how you Learned to Love Others Without Sacrificing Conviction—that's the subtitle of the book. I think it's a helpful book for all of us. You can go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to order a copy. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. Dennis— Dennis: Well, Caleb, you've had a few minutes to think about addressing your mom and your dad and giving them both a tribute. 22:00 Speak to them both, if you would please, in the first person. Caleb: Mom and Dad, I would not be who I am without you. You've instilled in me a sense of justice / a pursuit of those who are different and not like me. You've instilled in me a love of academics, education, logical thinking. You've instilled in me love. Even through the tough moments, there was never a moment when I ever doubted that you loved me. Even through the tough moments of moving from house to house, I never doubted for a second that you loved me. I know that you love me, still, to this day. I know that God, in His sovereignty, allowed all of this to happen; and I know that this can be the best season of all three of our lives if we trust God in whatever season that we are in. 23:00 I want you to know that, despite what you may feel that you have done wrong or I have, I'm extremely proud / enormously proud to be your son. I also want you to know that for any pain, throughout the years, that I may have caused you, especially in my religious fervor when I first came to Christ, I apologize for that. As I process through the emotions of learning what it is to follow Christ, and trying to love you, and walking this delicate balance between grace and truth and this tension, I'm sorry if you ever got hurt. I'm sorry for the times that I didn't know how to handle my emotions correctly, because I am not a perfect person; but I know that Satan meant to disrupt and destroy our lives / God allowed it to happen to save lives. 24:00 I truly believe that through both of your lives—even though both of them were painful, even from childhood to now—I truly believe that God is using your lives and this story—which is not just mine / it's yours—to help people for such a time as this because people need help. With the suicide rate of gay teenagers rising, parents need to know how to love; teenagers need to know truth. You have become a clay pot that God is using and shining light on. Thank you for being you and loving me. I love you so much. Bob: FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife® of Little Rock, Arkansas; A Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
Gone Fishing With Hank Parker (Part 1) - Hank ParkerGone Fishing With Hank Parker (Part 2) - Hank ParkerGone Fishing With Hank Parker (Part 3) - Hank ParkerFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Hooked on Christ Guest: Hank Parker From the series: Gone Fishing with Hank Parker (Day 1 of 3) Bob: Everybody in the little town where Hank Parker grew up knew that Hank's dad, Mo, was the town drunk. But he still had friends who never gave up on him, including one friend who dropped by the house one Saturday afternoon. Here's Mo Parker's son, Hank. Hank: He said, “Mo, I wanted to talk to you; but I see you've got Hank here with you. I‘m not going to bother your father/son time; but Mo, I want to leave you with one thought: “If you died today, where would you spend eternity?” My dad was about half drunk. I heard him say later that he had drunk the rest of the bottle of alcohol and opened another one and could not get drunk enough to get that thought off his mind. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, June 7th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll hear about the dramatic turnaround in Mo Parker's life; and we'll meet his son, Hank, today. 1:00 Stay with us. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. So this is for real; right?—“the rod-and-reel answer to Michael Jordan,”—that's what it says right here. That's the guy we've got today? Dennis: I'm just telling you, Bob—there is a big difference in fishing with a true professional fisherman and just being a good amateur. Bob: Help our listeners understand, because some of them are not fishermen or fisherwomen. They've never been to a pond with a rod and a reel. They're going, “So you want me to listen to a guest who is a pro fisherman.” Dennis: Well, you're going to hear a compelling story of how the God of the universe created a young man to use for His purposes. But he didn't take the normal route to find that purpose. We are going to listen to Hank Parker's story today. Welcome to the broadcast, Hank. Hank: Well, it is certainly a privilege to be here. 2:00 I'm excited. Dennis: Yes; I thought Bob was actually going to ask you just about when you had me on your fishing show. Bob: I was going to get there, because he came back bragging about—[Laughter] Dennis: Oh, I was not bragging. Bob: He said, “I could do that. I could be just like Hank Palmer.” That's what he was telling us. [Laughter] Dennis: No; I did not say that, Hank. I came back and I said, “There is a big difference between someone who has won the national championship of bass fishing twice and the rest of us who grew up on little lakes and streams around the country.” Bob: We should explain you have a television show, where you go—you take people fishing on your show; right? Hank: I had Dennis Rainey as a guest. How big is that? [Laughter] He did well. Let me tell you—he's being modest. Dennis: He took me to a fish hatchery. [Laughter] Hank: Yes; we were fishing in a great place, no doubt. Dennis: Hank, I have to ask you this—you had an ambition, as a boy, at the age of 15. 3:00 Hank: Yes; I didn't have a lot of options. I was not an academic achiever—that is an absolute understatement. I don't know—when I was just a kid, I went fishing and just fell in love with it. It just mesmerized me. It was bigger than life itself to me. I started reading about these guys, who were making a living bass fishing; and I said: “That is me. That's what I'm going to do.” Dennis: I want to go back to a statement you just kind of slipped by. [Laughter] You said you were not an academic achiever. There was something taking place in you—you didn't understand until you became an adult, later on. Explain to our listeners what happened. Hank: Yes; I had dyslexia. The little school system I was in—we were in a little small town of Maiden, North Carolina—about 2,400 people I think. I may be off some there—but a very, very small town—just a little school. I don't know that any schools knew anything about dyslexia in 1958 or -9. 4:00 I just read everything backwards. The harder I tried, the worse it became. I felt like I was the dumbest guy in the world. My mom would sit down with me at times and really try to get me to buckle down and do my homework. The more I tried to really get it right, the more I got it wrong. I just felt stupid. Bob: Did you grow up with nobody believing in you? Hank: Pretty much I did. I had a very dysfunctional home. My dad was a drunk. My mother later—by the time I was probably in the third grade—by that time, my mom had really started taking medication for [depression]—antidepressants. She'd stay in the bed all the time. So pretty much after the time I was probably fourth/fifth grade on, I was kind of on my own. Dennis: —like into the wee hours of the night on your own. Hank: Yes; I would do whatever. My mom and my dad separated. My dad was a drunk / my mom finally got tired of that—she left. At that time, it was no adult supervision or guidance; or I didn't have to report to anyone. 5:00 Bob: And no spiritual direction in your life at that point? Hank: No; we had gone to church when I was a kid. We went to a church that was not really a Bible-basic church. I never heard the gospel until I was 16 years old. Dennis: You actually robbed vending machines to get cash to do what? Hank: To get money for whatever—to be able to go to a movie or just to have money to buy food or anything else. Dennis: I've got to ask you this question—I was really kind of praying about when to ask it: “Hank, what's the most courageous thing you've ever done in all your life?” Hank: I was speaking at a wild game dinner in Georgia—I am giving my testimony. I am a high school dropout—I never told that ever in public / my wife Martha did not even know that. I'm giving my testimony—the Holy Spirit says: “Tell them,”—I mean— 6:00 “You've come here—you're the Michael Jordan / you're the world champion—you're somebody; but they all think you are self-achieved. Tell them who you really are. Tell them really where I've brought you from. You're a high school dropout. You were mad at the world—you had a bad attitude. I gave you salvation, and grounded you, and gave you a life. I want you to tell that story.” I didn't want to tell it. I'm going to tell you—people came to me in droves, saying: “No one knows. I've never told anybody. I've got a great job. I've got a good income,”—or whatever is going on in their life—“but I, too, dropped out of school.” God opened the floodgates that night. Most every time I give my testimony or do a wild game dinner, I clarify, from the beginning: “I am nobody. I am nothing. I am the son of a drunk that God used. Even though I had no education, He gave me hope. 7:00 I realized, if the King of kings / the Creator of this universe loved me enough to die for me, I'm a pretty special guy. All this time that I felt like a dummy and a failure, the Lord of lords gave His life for me. [Emotion in voice] So, I'm a pretty special guy. I started believing in myself, not because of me, but because of Him. I started thinking about: “Let's don't worry about the past. There is no future in the past. The past is history. You can't go back and rewrite it. So what do we do now that we are where we are in our life? What do we do to improve our life?” From that point on, I thought: “My dad used to tell me, ‘We all cannot be everything we want to be; but we can all be faithful, and we can all be honest.' So let's start with that. Let's start with a basic foundation: “Here you are—a dishonest person. 8:00 “You're the biggest liar that ever exists—you're a crook / you have a horrible attitude. Let's fix all of that. Let's set our priorities straight. Let's start living our life and trying to become the Christian that God would like us to be to be a faithful witness.” From that point forward, it all just fell into place. It was not as if I got some great revelation and I decided, “Okay; here's my business plan for my life.” It was none of that at all—it was taking one day at a time with no earthly idea what I was doing. It was just being led by my conscience, which I later learned was the Holy Spirit that we receive with salvation. I started changing my life. I didn't set down with a plan: “Hey; I'm going to get saved and change my life.” The Bible says, “Old things are passed away. All things become new,”—that was total reality in my life. 9:00 Dennis: [Emotion in voice] Hank, I wept as you told that story; because we live in a culture that makes education sacred, like you're worth more. That is exactly the opposite of how you felt. You said you felt like you were a dummy—you were worthless/ didn't have value. I just thought: “Isn't that really fascinating how God takes us to our lowest point and that's where He redeems us? He takes us from that, and He can make you a new creature.” Jesus Christ defeated death—He's alive today. What He did for you, as a 16-year-old young man, he can do for a listener, right now, who is listening to you, going, “You know, I have my own set of pride problems, my own deficiencies, and my own past that's lurking back there.” But people just need to hear what you just said, because He's alive—He redeems people / He forgives people who have failed. It's not some story out of some fantasy land. This is more real than this planet we're living on. 10:00 Hank: I think, when you're willing—and the Holy Spirit forced me to be willing / I didn't volunteer—I was drafted to tell my story. [Laughter] I think once you put that robe of humility on, people will come to you that have all sorts of problems. I've heard lots and lots of problems. I'm sure there's millions and millions of problems, but there's one answer—that's what's cool. Bob: So, a 16-year-old dyslexic dropout, son of an alcoholic father and a mom who is on antidepressants hears the gospel. What were the circumstances around which you heard the gospel? Hank: My grandfather, on my mother's side, was what we would call wealthy. He was lower middle class; but we were so dirt poor, he was very wealthy to us. My grandfather had sent my dad to rehab, after rehab, after rehab. My dad was named Mo. 11:00 I heard my grandfather say that ”Mo Parker will go to rehab, stay three weeks, be home two days, and be drunk again. He is absolutely hopeless. He's going to live a drunk, and he's going to die a drunk.” My dad, when I was 16 years old—my mom and dad were separated—I was in our home with my dad when a guy came by to see us one Saturday. He said, “Mo, I wanted to talk to you; but I see you have Hank here with you. I'm not going to bother your father/son time; but Mo, I want to leave you with one thought: ‘If you died today, where would you spend eternity?'” My dad was about half drunk. It was about 11:00 in the morning—my dad was about half drunk. I heard him say later that he had drunk the rest of the bottle of alcohol that he had in the house and opened another one and could not get drunk enough to get that thought off his mind. The next day was Sunday. He called the same man that came by our home and asked for a ride to church. He left our home about 11:00 one Sunday morning, a drunk. 12:00 He came back in, about 1:00 to 1:30, a saint. My dad started talking to me about Jesus, and giving me the gospel, and giving me a gospel tract every time I moved. He desperately wanted his boys—my brother and I—to be saved more than anything in the world. That was his whole desire in his life was that his two boys would be saved. Bob: Do you remember that Sunday afternoon at 1:30 when your dad comes back in the house and says, “Something happened this morning”? Hank: Well, yes; I do. I remember him saying, “Boys, I got saved.” I had no clue on the face of this earth what that meant. I thought: “Okay; he's found religion. There have been times that he's gone to these rehab centers and focus groups and he's come home and stayed sober for a whole week. So maybe he'll set the record this time. Maybe he'll stay sober two or three weeks—he's found religion.” I didn't know what that meant. It took time for me watching him to see that this transformation, that was so unbelievable, was real. 13:00 He turned our whole little community upside down—hundreds of people. There was revival like you would not believe. I'm not saying it was all because of his salvation. There was a church—people would pull over on the side of the road and get saved in the parking lot. I mean, it was just crazy—I mean, not even on a worship day / it was just so dramatic. After a period of time, my mom came home. She cleaned up her life for a period of time. I mean, it was a whole different world. It was very obvious, in a short period of time: “This thing is for real. My dad is for real.” I loved my dad—I thought it was great that he was saved, and it changed his life. He needed a dramatic salvation experience. I'm now beyond my breaking in stores. I've stepped it up—I'm now focused on fishing—so all of that bad stuff is in my rearview mirror / I'm now a good guy. 14:00 I don't need a dramatic salvation experience, and it's irritating me that my dad keeps insisting that I do. So, I had now got—in a very short period of time / probably six or seven months—I'm on defense now instead of rejoicing. Dennis: He just kept coming after you. Hank: He turned up the heat. Dennis: He prayed for you—he prayed for you every day, and he told you he was doing that too. Hank: Oh, yes; all the time, he would put gospel tracts in my socks. He would put them in my dry storage. He'd roll them up in my rain suit in my boat. He'd put them in my tackle box. He'd have them on the dash of my car. Any creative place you could find to put a gospel tract—he had one. [Laughter] Dennis: So share with our listeners what it took to get your attention, because this is one amazing story. Hank: My dad—he stayed consistent, and it broke all fellowship. I wouldn't hang around him very long at all. We didn't go fishing together any more—it just got too intense. I had gotten to the point that he drew that line in the sand and we could not have fellowship unless I would receive Christ. 15:00 So, we were pretty alienated. He was devastated by it—I didn't realize how devastated—but he was devastated by the decision that both my brother and I had made that we just weren't going to hang around our dad. We avoided him at all costs. He went with a group of men from New Life Baptist Church in Lincolnton, North Carolina, to White City, Kansas, to build a youth home in 1975 over the 4th of July holiday. My dad got saved in 1970—so this is five years later. My dad loved to cut up—he had a sense of humor like you would not believe—he was one funny guy. When they got to White City, Kansas, all the deacons and all the men there from the church—my dad was always an entertainer—he wasn't entertaining / he was in a different mood. The preacher had stayed back home and preached on Sunday—so he didn't get there until Monday. All the men told the preacher immediately— 16:00 —they said: “There's something wrong with brother Mo. I don't know what it is, but I've never seen him in this mood. I don't know if he's sick / I don't know what's going on, but something's wrong.” Well, my dad and his pastor had become best friends in the five years my dad had been saved—so they roomed together. That night, his pastor asked him, “Mo, what in the world is wrong with you?” He said, “You know, pastor, my boys have just—they ignore the gospel.” He said: “I've prayed for them. I've witnessed to then. I've given then gospel tracts. I've done everything I know to do.” My dad was so smart with me—he would never argue with me. I can never remember my dad arguing. I'd always want to argue the Scripture, and he would let me talk. I would say certain things—he would say, “Well, son, let's go back and see what the Bible says about that.” And he would refer to Scripture—so he had me arguing with God—so it was very uncomfortable. He said: “I have tried every way / everything I know.” He said, “I don't know what to do.” His pastor said, “Well, Mo, let's just keep praying.” 17:00 So that night, before they turned the lights out, my dad said, “You know, pastor, I would gladly give my life if my boys would be saved.” That was the last thing he said that night. When they loaded up to come back, there were seven men in a van. There was an accident—one man was killed, and it was my dad. He had left a note in his Bible. The pastor was just reading the footnotes, and flipping through the Bible, and he found a note my dad had written—it said: “Pastor if you find this note before I am buried, I have one final request and it is—instead of you preaching a traditional funeral service at my funeral—that you would preach the gospel. I have two boys that are lost and that may be the last time, this side of eternity, they hear the gospel.” I got saved at my dad's funeral. [Emotion in voice] My brother did too. [Laughter] All has been different—the sky has never been so blue, the air has never smelt so fresh, and I never knew what it was like to be set free. 18:00 I'd never ever in my whole life measured up. I'd never been good enough for anything. All of a sudden, I'm free—I didn't know what that was like—it was so incredible. It's more incredible, 40 years later, than it was when it happened. Amazing what God can do! Dennis: And to the person, who is listening right now, who goes, “That's me!” Tell them what he needs to do—or her. Hank: Bury it all—give it to Him—He's there, waiting. No matter who you've been, how bad you've been, what you've been through—I said earlier there's a million problems, but there's one answer. I can't believe, with all the bondage and the pit that I was in, in just a matter of opening my heart and allowing the Holy Spirit to guide me to accept Jesus Christ— 19:00 —I cannot imagine how all of that bondage to chains was broken in just the blink of an eye. People said: “Well, you're emotional. It was your father's funeral. You're making an irrational decision based on bereavement and circumstances. It won't last.” That was in 1975, and it is greater today than it was then. Dennis: And you use every opportunity you have to tell others about that Savior. Hank: I'd like to say that, from the very moment I got saved, I hit the path and all I did was preach the gospel. But I lived a very selfish period of my life, and I did a lot of things. About 15 years ago or so—I circled the wagons, and I realized what is truly important in this world. I've made friends / I've won world championships. 20:00 I've made lots of money that I never thought—beyond what I ever dreamt could happen in my life. The realization came to me, through a set of circumstances, that it's not what you have—it's not outside / it's not circumstances—it's in your heart / it's the peace. I've served Jesus for a lot of years, kind of because I did it the way I thought you were supposed to do it. The last 15 years, I've served him out of pure love—I know how much He loves me. I'm telling you—there's no hope outside of Jesus Christ. People say,” Well, this world's corrupt / this worlds fallen down.” It doesn't matter what condition the world's in—it's been this way—and that's why Jesus came to the earth. Dennis: We're going to talk more about that; but he may be a world champion bass fisherman, Bob—he won that twice—but he's more of an evangelist than anything else. 21:00 That was clear after spending a couple of days with Hank as we went fishing together a little over a year ago. Bob: I hope our listeners get a chance to see the video. I know it's running on the Outdoor Channel, off and on. If folks would like more information about Hank, and his fishing, and what he's doing, we have a link to his website at FamilyLifeToday.com. You can find out more about where you're speaking in different locations and just about what you're up to these days. You know, as we've talked about the family dynamic and your dad's impact in your life, I was thinking about dads I've talked to who have taken time to get together with their sons—and maybe other dads and sons—and all of them go through the Stepping Up® video series together. A lot of the dads I have talked to, who have done that, have come back and just said it was a great study to go through together—father and son—just being honest with each other / transparent with what's going on in your life— 22:00 —the challenges you face, as a man—helping initiate your sons into adulthood / into manhood. I hope that we've got listeners who, this summer, will make that a priority—some father/son time—maybe with other fathers and sons—go through the Stepping Up video series. There's information about the series on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com. You can order the videos and the workbooks from us; or if you have any questions, give us a call at 1-800-FL-TODAY. We have a team of folks who would love to answer any questions you have and help you get set up to have a father/son Stepping Up group during the summer months. You know, listening to your story today, Hank, I'm reminded that all of us have deficits in our background—all of us look back with regret on some of the events of our lives. The good news of the gospel is that God provides forgiveness and redemption. 23:00 He transforms our lives so that we can be trophies of His grace. Our goal, here, at FamilyLife is to make sure that that message is loud and clear—to every mom/dad, husband/wife—everyone, who looks at their family situation and says, “There was a lot of brokenness here.”That's God's specialty—to step in and fix the brokenness through the power of the gospel. You know, we are grateful for listeners who share our burden to see every home become a godly home. Those of you who support the ministry of FamilyLife Today with donations, we are so thankful for your participation in this ministry. As you give, you make it possible for more people to hear God's good news about marriage and family every day. We're pleased to partner with you in that ministry. You can donate, right now, to FamilyLife online at FamiyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation. 24:00 Or you can mail your donation to FamilyLifeToday at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. We hope you can be back with us again tomorrow. We'll talk more with Hank Parker. We're going to hear about how the pursuit of becoming a world champion fisherman cost Hank something very special / something very valuable. We'll hear about that tomorrow. I hope you can be with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. 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FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. The Deadly Traps of AdolescenceDay 2 of 10 Guest: Dennis and Barbara Rainey From the series: Peer Pressure Bob: And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition. It's Tuesday, July 10th, and we thought we'd do something a little different today – we're broadcasting from outdoors here on the Montana prairie. Dennis: It's beautiful out here, isn't it? Bob: It is beautiful. Dennis: Big Sky Country – man, the grass is so green and fresh, wow. Bob: The wind is kind of warm. (rumbling noise) Dennis: What's that? What is that, Bob? Did you hear that? Bob: I do hear that. Dennis: Bob, the ground's shaking. Bob: There's a little bit of a … Dennis: … feel it? Bob: Uh-huh, it's coming. Look over on the – on the horizon! Dennis: Bob, it's a bunch of them. Bob: It's … Both: The herd! Dennis: That was kind of fun – we survived the buffalo stampede here. Bob: I'm not sure we'll survive the teenage stampede. Dennis: Oh, man. Barbara: It lasts a little longer. Dennis: It sure does. Bob: We are talking this week on the broadcast about some of the traps that are laid for teenagers, some of the deadlier traps that are laid for young people as they go through the teenage years, and one of the traps that they face is the trap of the herd, it's the trap of peer pressure, Dennis. Dennis: You know, Jeremiah, chapter 5, verse 26 says, "Among my people are wicked men who lie in wait like men who snare birds and those who set traps to catch men." That's peers – evil peer pressure can snare our children and can ruin their lives. Bob: You know, Barbara, everywhere you look and listen and read and watch, you hear about peer pressure and its influence, and yet it's almost like we've heard so much about it that we've forgotten that it's real, and we're not sure how to define it or what to do with it. From a mom's standpoint, practically, what are the issues around peer pressure that are real issues for our families? Barbara: To me the big issue for peer pressure is for mom and dad to stay involved. You need to know who the kids are that your child is hanging out with, who their friends are, and you need to be watching how those friends of your child are beginning to change, because all of our kids, as they move from elementary school in those early years of when they still like Mom and Dad. But they move into junior high, all of our kids are going to change in some way or another, and we can't assume, as parents, that the kids that our children have been friends with since kindergarten, first grade, second grade, are still going to be the same kind of influence, the same kind of child, in junior high and high school that our child is going to be. We can't assume that they're going to have the same value system, the same convictions, the same beliefs. We've seen it with all of our kids that some of the children that they've grown up with have taken a different fork in the road in junior high and that friendship changes, and if parents assume that those kids are going to just be the same kids, then we get blindsided. Dennis: You know, in that passage I read in Jeremiah, chapter 5, it says "among my people are evil men." The most dangerous form of peer pressure will not come from the non-Christian audience. It will come from the youth group, from children who have been on the right path until they hit 13 or 15 and, all of a sudden, they steer down the wrong path, and they begin to take a group with them. In fact, there is a larger group in most youth groups heading down that path than there is down the path to righteousness and following Jesus Christ and, as parents, Barbara and I have spent a great deal of time being very careful analyzing who are our children hanging out with? What's their spiritual condition? Where are they headed – constantly monitoring who our children's friends are. Bob: The bad kids are kind of obvious, even to our teenagers. It's the good kids who are starting to dabble in some bad things that can be the ones who pull our kids off into the ditch with them. Dennis: Exactly, and it's important for our children to know when it's okay to run with the herd and what kind of herd they can run with and when it's time for them to graze alone. Paul warned in 1 Corinthians, chapter 15, verse 33, he said, "Don't be deceived. Bad company corrupts good morals." All of our children have memorized that verse prior to going into adolescence, because they have to understand that peers are going to influence them, either for good or for evil. Bob: You illustrate this principle in a really powerful way with your sixth grade Sunday school class that you taught for many years. How did you do it? Dennis: Well, I brought a shiny apple into class, and I said that this apple is about to fall under peer pressure, and I let it spend some time with a couple of buddies, and these two buddies were bad apples, and they had bruises on them, and to make sure that the experiment worked, I'd actually bounced them off the floor a couple of times, so these were truly bad apples, okay? And I actually hid the bruises from my sixth grade Sunday school class to make the point of saying you can't always trust what you see is true, and I held up a side that didn't have the bruise, and I said, "These two are really bad apples," and then I slowly turned them around, and the children then could see that they really did have a rotten spot on then, and I said, "We're going to let this good apple spend some time with these two bad buddies, and we're going to see what happens as the good apple falls under the influence of these two bad apples," and we put them in a plastic baggie that sealed and put them in a paper sack and left them in a closet for about six months. Bob: They hibernated, right? Dennis: They did, in fact, over the following months the sixth grade class would be saying, "How are our buddies doing?" I'd say, "Well, I've been checking on them. They're spending time, and you need to know it's not pretty, it really isn't pretty," and then on one of the final class days I would invite one of the sixth graders to come up front, he would reach into the paper sack and pull out this plastic baggie that contained this form of rotten, putrid, apple soup, and there weren't three apples in there. There was nothing distinguishable that you would recognize as an apple and, of course, my point to those children is that Paul's admonition in 1 Corinthians 15:33 – "You are either going to influence people or you are going to be influenced for evil," and if you spend time with the wrong person, you're going to become like those that you make your friendships with. Bob: Barbara, as Dennis was talking about the apples that look good from one side but have some hidden bruises, I was reminded of Eddie Haskell – you remember him on "Leave It To Beaver?" He was the young man who would always come over and say, "Hello, Mrs. Cleaver, how nice you look today." Then when he'd get up to Wally's room, it was always a different story, and he'd start talking slang, and he was rude and disrespectful. Parents have got to be alert to what's going on with these kids. We've got to look all around the apple and see as much as we can, don't we? Barbara: Yeah, because some kids are really smart, and they know how to do that. They know how to look good when they have to look good, but when they're off on their own, they will do what they want to do, and I think there are a couple of things that parents need to be aware of as you evaluate the kids that your child is spending time with, and one of them is sometimes these peers will ridicule what your standards are. They will make fun of them, or they will belittle them, or they will arrogantly tear down what you're trying to do with your child. Dennis: Yeah, and I've got to underscore this one, because I think a parent needs to be very careful of assuming too much about the peers that your children run around with. Don't assume that they stand for the same standards that you represent in your family. In fact, Barbara and I have probably come to the point where we don't assume that about any of the children until we get to know them. After we get to know them, we get to know their families, where they come from, and who they are. At that point, we'll begin to give them the benefit of the doubt. It's almost like any parent of a teenager ought to begin with a basic – this is going to sound horrible, Bob – but a basic mistrust of peers. Why? Because they will arrogantly and flagrantly ridicule the standards and values that you're attempting to teach your child at home – just what Barbara said. They'll do it frontally, they'll do it subtly, they'll come at your child in different ways, tempting him to step to the left or to the right, but most children, even Christian kids, are not going to step in alongside your teenager and say, "You know, it's really wise that your parents grounded you from going out on dates, because of that mistake you made last week." Barbara: That's never happened. Dennis: That has never happened, but we have had great Christian kids – I mean – from great Christian homes come in and say, "Your parents have grounded you from going to youth group? Your parents have grounded you from God? Man, your parents are – I don't know about them, about their values." Now, Bob, these are from kids of great Christian homes. They don't understand what a parent is up to and what a parent is trying to do in providing those boundaries and convictions around that child. Bob: Barbara, they may also encourage our children to do things that Mom and Dad will never find out about, right? Barbara: Yeah, and that's historically true with peers, and that's been going on for centuries, but the classic line that our kids have heard over and over again is – "Your parents will never find out." And our kids have all had friends tell them that over different things. Like, Rebecca came home and was talking about our high school baseball team and their first opening game that she was wanting to go to, and we had looked at her whole week and together we had decided that she didn't need to do that, because we had so many other things going on that week, and she could maybe go to a game the following week. And at school she was telling some of the guys on the team, "Well, I'm not going to go." And they said, "Well, why aren't you going to go?" "Well, my parents and I decided it wouldn't be a good idea," and they said, "Well, they'll never know – just go – nothing's going to hurt, just go to the game anyway, do it anyway." I mean, over and over and over again . Dennis: And when that happens, the caution lights go on between Mom and Dad, and we begin to closely monitor those friendships and, at the same time, begin to guard our children from spending too much time from other teenagers who would encourage our son or daughter to disobey us. Now, think about that. That sounds like a no-brainer, but some parents would watch that happen and would not think that they have the right to step into that child's life to begin to curb the amount of time that teenager spends with that child. Bob: Which is one of the convictions that you talk about in your book. You say that parents have a legitimate right to exercise influence and control even over who your kids are spending time with. Dennis: Yeah, I want to read something from our book right here – "You are the parent. Realize that maintaining control of those who influence your children is within the bounds of your authority as a parent." Did you hear that? It's your responsibility, you're in charge, nobody else, but there's some kind of complex equation that takes place in the chemistry of a teenager and a parent of a teenager, where a parent begins to abdicate their responsibility and, I might add, their authority, and they give it over to the child, and then they wonder years later why the child went off in the wrong direction. Bob: Well, here's what happens Barbara – a teenager comes, and there's some discussion, and finally the teenager says, "Well, don't I have the right to choose who my own friends are going to be? Don't I even have the right to decide who I can hang around with?" And, as a parent, you say no? Barbara: Yeah, and you sound horrible saying no. Dennis: You've got to sound strong saying no. You can't go "No?" Your own voice can't change like a teenager's. You've got to go "That's right." Call their bluff – and inside you may be going, "Oh, I'm not sure about this. I'm going to lose them. They're going to run away. They're going to become a prodigal. They're out of here. They're going to" … Barbara: But the whole goal is shaping, though, their ability to choose friends wisely. It's not so much that you're coming down heavy-handed and going, "No, you have no right to make your own friends, your mom and dad are going to do that for you." That's not the issue. The issue is that you're training them, you're guiding them, you're helping them understand how to choose a good friend and how to be a good friend, and that takes a lot of time. Bob: And the context for that is one of the other convictions you talk about in the book – the relationship that must be in place, because without the relationship, if you start saying, "No, you can't choose your own friends," they check out from you, and they'll just sneak around and do it whether you like it or not. Dennis: Yeah, that's right. The quality of the relationship that you have with your child will be a determining factor of how significant peer pressure is on your child's life. Did you hear that? It doesn't mean you'll prevent it. I'm just saying if you've got a quality relationship, if your heart is connected to your child, you're going to know what's going on. Your child will know that you know what's going on. You'll be in it together. There may be times when they slip away, and they've done something, but you can go get that child through that relationship. If that relationship is not in place, you don't have any ability to go get that child and pull them away from peer pressure. What your ability – to preach? Even with those relationships in place they don't want to hear those sermons. But you know what? With the relationship in place, it makes the possibility of them hearing that sermon a reality. Bob: You know, as we talk about peer pressure, we talk about it almost exclusively in its negative sense – those folks who yank our kids in the wrong direction – one of the great things that you all talk about is the power of positive peer pressure. This is where parents can really turn peer pressure and make it their ally instead of their enemy. Barbara: Yeah, and I think a lot of parents aren't aware that that's a possibility, because what happens is when they're not involved, then the kids are going to gravitate toward negative peer pressure, and that's just going to be the human nature of the situation. They're just going to go that way. But if you're involved, and you're teaching your child how to develop good friendships, how to be a good friend, and then you steer him or her toward kids that you know are going to be good kids, kids that are going to be a good influence, and you sort of help cultivate that relationship, make time for it, and have those kids over to your house and help develop that and teach your child how to keep that going, then you can use that for good in your child's life. So it doesn't have to be negative. It can be positive if parents are proactive about it. Dennis: When Ashley was 13 or 14, she came home from school one day, and she described what she was feeling like as a young person. She said, "Mom, Dad, it's as though I'm standing on a wall, and my friends are all at the base of the wall, and they picked up stones to throw at me to try to knock me off the wall." Bob: Wow. Dennis: And I think what you need to do with your teenager is to help them find some friends to get up on the wall with her or with him, and it's interesting – our oldest three went through junior high and high school alone. They were terribly alone on that wall … Barbara: But they did have each other, and I do think that made a difference, because even though they were alone without peer relationships from other kids, they were pretty much in school together, and they knew that they had somebody else that was there with them. Bob: They also had Mom and Dad cheering them on in the background saying, "Way to go." Barbara: Right, exactly. Bob: So that when they took courageous stands, at least home was a place they could come to where they knew they were going to get some positive reinforcement. Barbara: Right, right. Dennis: Exactly, and when Ashley told that story of how she felt, we just cheered her – I mean – "Way to go, Ashley. Don't let them knock you off. Stand strong." One of our other teenagers has told us repeatedly, "You know, I just feel like such a failure as a teenager." And when it comes to peers, and being a teenager, our teens make a lot of dumb choices, you know, they choose some wrong things, and it's easy, as a parent, to constantly be on them for the mistakes they're making and not appropriately be for them and the right choices they're making and cheering them on to the objective. Bob: Barbara, one of the very practical things that you've done with your children to help prepare them for maybe standing alone, is the "decide in advance" game. Tell me how that's played. Barbara: Well, it can be used in lots of different situations, but for peer pressure, for instance, it would be a situation where – I've done this with all of our kids as they have exited sixth grade and entered into junior high, and I've said to all of them, "Now, you know, as you go through these next couple of years, some of the kids that you've been friends with since second grade and third grade are going to begin to change, and they will choose some wrong paths; some things that our family doesn't stand for, and I want you to be watching for that so that when it happens you'll be not caught off guard by it, and you'll see it coming, and you won't get sucked into making those wrong choices, too." So it's the idea of thinking through some situations in advance and helping them know that there are going to be some problems ahead, and what are you going to do about it when it happens? And taking it a step further, it could be what are you going to do if you're over at a friend's house, and they put a movie in that you don't think we would approve of. How are you going to handle that? Or what if you're at the mall, and you see some kids that are thinking about shoplifting? You can tell just by the way they're talking and what they're doing that they're thinking about that. How are you going to handle that? What are you going to do? There are just multiple things like that that kids are going to face in greater numbers in junior high and high school than they ever faced before, and helping them decide in advance what they're going to do about it is a great step in preparing them to handle it right. Dennis: It really is, and it comes from Daniel, chapter 1, where it talks about how Daniel made up his mind in advance not to defile himself by eating the king's food. In other words, he walked into the banquet having already decided what he was going to do in advance of the choice, and I think, personally, this whole idea of parents having their own convictions and then implanting those convictions in their children, helping that child decide what he or she will do before they face the situation, I believe, Bob, is one of the absolute keys in helping our children survive adolescence. Bob: Well, and that's why you and Barbara have invested as much time as you did in this book, "Parenting Today's Adolescent," because you want parents to think through these issues – and I appreciate the fact that what you really want parents to do is develop their own convictions. In some cases, it's clear what the biblical mandate is on some of these issues, but in other cases, we have to decide what do we think is the wise way to approach this? And what kind of standards are we going to have for our family? A husband and wife need to come to an agreement on those issues and be ready proactively to address them as their children begin the journey through adolescence. We've got copies of the book, "Parenting Today's Adolescent" in our FamilyLife Resource Center, and I know many of our listeners already have a copy. If you have children who are in the late elementary years, that's the perfect time for you to get a copy of this book and start reading through it. You could read through a different chapter each week on a date night together and begin, as a husband and wife, to interact over these issues and say, "What are our standards? What are our convictions?" Again, the book is called "Parenting Today's Adolescent." You can request a copy from us here at FamilyLife Today by go online at FamilyLife.com, click the red "Go" button that you see in the middle of the screen, and that will take you right to an area of the website where there is more information about this book, and you can order it online, if you'd like. Again, the website is FamilyLife.com. Click the red button that says "Go," and that will take you to the area of the site where you can get more information about the book, "Parenting Today's Adolescent." You can also call 1-800-FLTODAY to request a copy of this book or to ask any questions you have – 1-800-358-6329, that's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY, and we've got folks who are available to try and help you with any questions you face or to get a copy of the book sent out to you. You know, there's an additional resource we'd like to send to you this month. It's a book that Dennis has just written called "Interviewing Your Daughter's Date" – a great book for dads or for a single-parent mom as well to talk about how you can protect your daughter as she begins to be pursued by young men, and how you can engage those young men in a meaningful, helpful conversation that will have an impact on their lives as well. We are sending out this book this month as a thank you gift to those of you who are able to help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today with a donation of any amount. Because we are listener-supported, those donations are critical for the ongoing ministry of FamilyLife Today and in the summer months, particularly, we need to hear from our listeners. Oftentimes, support drops off in the summer, and that's the case this year as well. If you can help with a donation of any amount to the ministry of FamilyLife Today, you can request a copy of the book, "Interviewing Your Daughter's Date." You can donate online at FamilyLife.com, and if you do that, when year-old come to the key code box on the donation form, type the word "date" in there, and we'll know to send you a copy of that book. Or call 1-800-FLTODAY, make your donation over the phone and mention that you'd like a copy of Dennis's new book, "Interviewing Your Daughter's Date." Again, we're happy to send it out to you as our way of saying thanks for your financial support of the ministry of FamilyLife Today. You know, Dennis, as we talked today about peer pressure, you used the illustration of the rotten apple in the bag, and I remember you telling me that years after your sixth grade Sunday school class, one of those students who had been in the class returned and told you about the power that that particular illustration had had in her life. Dennis: Yeah, Sarah was 16 or 17 and evidently was facing some pretty challenging days of peer pressure, and one afternoon when the power was out because of a thunderstorm that had rolled through, this young teenage girl and her mom were lying on the bed just talking to each other. The mom relayed this story to me later that Sarah turned to her and said, "You know, Mom, there's all kinds of pressure on me right now by peers, but all I can think about are apples – Mr. Rainey's apples – and what happened to those apples when they gave in to the bad buddies." That little object lesson was used by the spirit of God in that girl's mind to remind her to do what was right and to talk to her mom about that during a crucial period where she was having to decide either to do what's right or to move in the direction of peer pressure. It helped her do what was right and, Bob, I think that's our role as parents. We need to step in there and illustrate these principles, call our children to the right choices, and then keep calling them back to those choices. It's not a one-time lesson where you teach it once, and then you back off. It's over and over and over again. The repetitive side of parenting is the exhaustive side of parenting, but it's where the real gains are made, and I just want to come alongside that mom and dad right now, single parent, maybe even a grandparent who is helping to raise a child and just say to you – hang in there. Don't give in to your child's peer pressure yourself. You've got to stand strong so you can help your child through some dangerous territory that has traps that will seek to ensnare your child and take them toward destruction. Bob: FamilyLife Today is a listener-supported production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. __________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. The Deadly Traps of Adolescence Day 7 of 10 Guest: Dennis and Barbara Rainey From the series: Media Woman: Honey, let's do something fun tonight. Man: Yeah. How about let's watch some TV. Woman: No, no, no, no, I was thinking more of like a game. Man: Yeah, that's a good idea. I think the game is on right now. (sound of football game on TV) Woman: I am not talking about a TV game. I'm talking about a board game. Man: Oh. Woman: You know, a board game with the kids. Man: Yeah. Woman: Okay, if not a board game, how about we read to them? That would be so great. Man: Yeah. I know – we could do that after the game. Woman: Which game? Man: The game on TV. It's starting right now. Bob: So how about it – did you get the family together, you watch a little TV – does that qualify as family time? Not according to Barbara Rainey. But why not? Barbara: Well, there really are several reasons. One of them is because I feel like it's not a relational time. It's not building family unity and togetherness. We may be sitting together in the same room, but it's not building our family, it's not allowing for communication between us, and it takes us away from doing other things that I feel like are more important that we could be doing either together as a family or even individually, for that matter. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, July 17th. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. There may be a media monster on the loose at your house, so what do you do to get rid of it? Stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition. Just the fact that you have media in your home doesn't mean you've got a monster in your home, but in a lot of homes, whether it's the Internet or the television or other forms of media, things have gotten a little out of control. In fact, we're going to be encouraging our listeners next month to enjoy a fast from television. We'll talk more about that in coming day here on our program. But, I was thinking, as we've been talking this week about teenagers and some of the challenge they face, media is one of those challenges, and one of the reasons that things like this are a challenge for our sons and our daughters in the teen years is because their body gets to a point of adulthood before their minds and their emotions catch up, you know what I mean? Dennis: Yeah, and they're not ready in their character, their emotions, their value system, or their spiritual maturity, to be able to handle what's being thrown at them, and I think one of the biggest mistakes parents make today is they start looking at these young boys and girls who begin to form adult bodies, they begin to look at us eye-to-eye, their height is up there, and we begin to make some dangerous assumptions that just because they look like an adult, they're beginning to even take on some adult mannerisms, that does not mean they are an adult. And that's why God, I believe, has given parents to teenagers; that we, as adults, need to be careful about taking our hand off the plow. We need to keep both our hands on the plow and keep our eyes fixed on the goal, and keep headed straight down the row and persevere – not give up – don't give in to these desires that can fluctuate with teenagers. Bob: Barbara, as you look around, you can't help but see parents who seem to be letting go of the plow much earlier than they ought to be – kids getting to the age of 9, 10, 11, 12, and parents are feeling like, "Well, our job is pretty much done." Barbara: Yeah, I think there are a lot of parents who are letting go way too soon, and I think we see it all around us. Kids have so much freedom today. They're let loose at the mall, and they're wandering around, and they don't have the supervision that I think they need at that age. Bob: We talked last week about the trap of peer pressure and how it snares kids. We talked about sexual immorality, and we've talked about dating, and one of the things we've realized is we've talked particularly about sexual immorality and dating is that those impulses in teenagers are being fed by the trap we're going to be talking about today, and that is the media. Dennis: Yes and, you know, the choices that are before young people today are enormous. If a child has an hour or two to spare, think of what he has a choice between. There's books, magazines, newspapers, mail, junk mail, radio, television, cable TV, e-mail, computer software, computer games, video games, and then there's the Internet, and I feel like sometimes the Internet is trying to take over all of our homes, offering the world to our children who sit in front of computer screens to be entertained by choices that, in many cases, are evil. Bob: In the book that the two of you have written, "Parenting Today's Adolescent," you say that when it comes to media, we live in a media-driven world and, for parents, we have to look not only at what our children are choosing to consume but in what quantity. It's not just an issue, Barbara, of what they're involved with but the amount of time they're investing in media-related activity. Barbara: I think we need to be really careful as parents that we don't allow our kids to just veg out with media, whether it's the computer or music or television or radio or whatever and become static and become just like a vegetable and just be there. I think kids this age still need lots of activity, they need lots of – they just need a lot of variety in their lives, and they don't need to be consumed with all this information that's out there via media. Dennis: You know, I am so glad I'm married to this woman, because I think I would have been the original veg. Early on in our marriage, she would walk in – when we had no children – and she would circle my easy chair that I was trying to watch "The Game of the Weekend" on Saturday, and she would circle that chair, Barbara would – kind of like I was roadkill, and a little bit like buzzard. Bob: You probably looked a little like roadkill in those days. Dennis: And she was letting me know in no uncertain terms that this was a waste of time and, early on, Barbara began to shape our family's media diet. And she put me on that diet, and it was a point of contention early in our marriage and occasionally can still be that in our family because we do have different habits and different styles when it comes to media. But there are some women who are listening to the broadcast who feel sometimes that they need to apologize to their husbands for feeling the way they feel about the amount of media coming into your homes, and I just want to encourage you women – stand strong, stand firm. Don't nag, don't harp at your husband, but you know what? Don't give in, either. Hang tough and keep the standard up there because what you two decide on as a couple will establish – listen carefully – it will establish the environment for your home. Bob: And the Scripture does speak, Dennis, to this issue of how we consume media, even though they didn't have cable TV in David's day. Dennis: That's right. Psalm 101 is one of my favorite psalms. At the top of it, I have written the word "integrity," and it speaks, I think, of what we allow to come into our soul through the eye gate – and you can add the ear to this, although it's primarily speaking, I believe, to what we set before our eyes. It says in verse 2, "I will give heed to the blameless way." Now, repeatedly, in this series that we're doing on dealing with traps, we call parents to stay out of the trap. We have to set a standard. We have to model what we're challenging our children to do, and the psalmist said, "I will begin by giving heed to the blameless way." It goes on, "When wilt thou come to me? I will walk within my house in the integrity of my heart." How does he do that? Verse 3, he says, "I will set no worthless thing before my eyes. I hate the work of those who fall away. It shall not fasten its grip on me. A perverse heart shall depart from me. I will know no evil." There's the picture there, I believe, of a trap that a man or a woman can walk off into, and it fastens its grip on a dad and, before long, we become the gateway into our children's lives for them to be able justify their diet of all these media choices that they have. Down in verse 6 – the last part of that verse makes a profound statement, I believe, that every parent needs to grab hold of – "He who walks in a blameless way is the one who will minister to me." A parent needs to realize that we, as fathers and mothers, are the ones who need to walk in a blameless way, because our model will give credence to our words, and that means the choices we make do have an impact on our children as they approach adolescence. That's an important time, those years preceding adolescence. You don't just train an adolescent in the middle of the teenage years. You've got to do it in those elementary years as well. I know the answer to this question, but I'm going to ask Barbara to share with our listeners why she has been so ruthless about media in our family. Barbara: Well, there really are several reasons. One of them is because I feel like it's not a relational time, because when we are all watching a movie or all watching TV or – some of us are, anyway, because we don't necessarily all do it together very often – but it's not a dialog, it's not a relationship, it's not building family unity and togetherness. We may be sitting together in the same room, but it's not building our family. It's not allowing for communication between us, and it takes us away from doing other things that I feel like are more important that we could be doing either together as a family or even individually, for that matter. Dennis: If you allow it, media will become the altar where we worship. It will become the focal point of our home. Bob: The other night I had found a great new site on the Internet, it had a lot of really interesting stuff, and I was clicking from link to link to see what all was there, when I heard my wife behind me say, "Well, goodnight." And it was said in that as to indicate "You vegetable, you vegetable" … Dennis: "Come out in the vegetable garden, oh, you vegetable." Bob: And I had to make that hard decision to go down to the left-hand corner and click the shutoff button down there and go and have a little conversation with one whom I had been neglecting throughout the evening. Barbara, you're nodding. Barbara: I'm nodding. I'm going, "Way to go, Mary Ann." Dennis: It couldn't be this husband that she's married to. I don't know who she's saying "uh-huh" about. Bob: Well, in addition to what we model for our children, you've taken some pretty aggressive steps to set some boundaries, some standards for your children in all different areas of media consumption. Give us some ideas, for example, of TV viewing – what's acceptable and how much, Barbara? Barbara: We generally do not allow our kids to watch television during the school week unless it is something that is very highly educational, which is rare, very, very rare. So we really just try to keep it off during the school week – for the kids, that is. Then on the weekends, there's not a whole lot that's real great then, either, although as our kids have gotten older and there's been a lot more sport things on TV that my girls have been interested in, like ice skating, they've been watching more of that kind of thing recently than they had years ago. But we just really limit it, and if there is going to be TV viewing on the weekend for the kids, I mean, it's limited to an hour or two, and if they're sitting in front of the TV all afternoon watching this ice skating thing, and I realize it's been over an hour, I'll walk in and say, "Hey, look, girls, this is it. You can finish the next program, and it's off, and that's it for the day." Bob: Why? Why, after an hour, are you saying, "We're done." Barbara: Well, usually, because there are so many other things that are a better use of their time. I just don't feel like it's teaching them anything, if they're not learning anything, it's simply vegetating in front of the TV. They're just sitting there. They could be cleaning their rooms, they could be reading a book, they could be playing on the trampoline together, they could be, I mean, zillions of things, writing letters, I mean, it just goes on and on, and, obviously, they don't want to quit watching TV to go do chores. But there are a lot of other things that they can be doing besides that. They could play a game together. I mean, families used to play board games together or used to do a lot of those kinds of things together as a group, and families don't do that anymore. Bob: So now they turn off the TV and go get on the computer and play a video. Barbara: Yes, oh, that's happened. I've said "Turn off the TV," and the next thing I know Deborah is sitting in there in front of the computer and I think, "Oh, well, that didn't work." Dennis: Yes, I've lost this one again. All of this, thought, is based upon one of our core convictions when it comes to media, and that conviction is we, as parents, have the responsibility and the right to screen and set limits to all the different forms of media consumer by our family. Dennis: All of this, though, is based upon one of our core convictions when it comes to media, and that conviction is we, as parents, have the responsibility and the right to screen and set limits to all the different forms of media consumed by our family. In other words, we don't have the luxury of being passive, and I think the easiest thing for a man to do in this deal is to delegate it to his wife and let her do it and not be a protector of his family. But, instead, we have to guard our own hearts, as the Proverbs tell us, and then we have to guard our children's hearts in protecting them from the different forms of media that come into your home, and that begins with limiting what comes in, and then whatever does come in there, I think Moms and Dads need to monitor and pay careful attention to the values that are represented in those particular forms of media. For instance, if your child is playing a computer game, as I've watched Samuel do on occasion when he was a teenager and wasn't in college at that time. I remember – and this is a person failure. I will probably go to my grave feeling like I compromised here, but somehow he got some kind of computer game that was – it wasn't blood and guts, but there was a lot of blood, okay? They were shoot 'em up, bang-bang game, and you'd slay all these creatures and stuff, and I was watching him do this and you know what? I believe I compromised, I really do. I did not step in there and say, "Samuel, that game has no place in our home." Instead, something about his age, maybe something about the peer pressure and all the other boys that he ran around with, and maybe it was just a soft place in my heart for him, I don't know, but I kept letting him play this game. And you know what? I'll look back on that and wonder if I shouldn't have stepped in there earlier and said, "Absolutely not." Bob: Because of the time involved or because of the content of the game or what? Dennis: I think both. He spent a lot of hours playing that game but, more importantly, I think, was the content of the game. It wasn't anything sexually immoral, it didn't have any language problems on the game, it just was a guy walking … Barbara: It was killing people all the time. Dennis: It was just walking in an killing people and spilling blood all over the computer screen. Barbara: I think what we're talking about is what Paul says in Philippians 4:8. It says, "Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things." And I think that's a good standard for us to apply, as parents, to video games that our kids play, like this one that Samuel played, or TV shows or movies or music or any form of media. We need to train our children that what they think about, what they expose themselves to needs to be pure and holy and wholesome, and if it's not, they need to question and think about it. Bob: You know, here's a double-edged sword, and you mentioned that sometimes there are good educational programs on TV. The Internet provides a wonderful resource for getting information for term papers that are coming up. There is positive benefit associated with almost every kind of media and, as parents, we can't just isolate ourselves and go back to typewriters and candles. We have to acknowledge the fact that there's benefit, and we can redeem the media. Dennis: Yeah and there is where, as parents, we need to do what Solomon did with his son as he taught him to be discerning. We need to teach our children to listen carefully to the values, the messages, and what's being said in the music, on the Internet, in the movie, and our children have grown weary of this stuff with us as parents. I mean, they would have voted us out of office a long time ago, because we would go to a movie that we did approve of that was appropriate, and we'd walk out of there, and on our way home, we would be talking about the messages that were in that movie and what the underlying values that were being represented in the story line. And our children go, "Dad, it was a great movie. Just enjoy" … Bob: … "just leave it alone." Dennis: "Just leave it alone, Dad." But, you know, I'm not going to leave it alone, I'm sorry. And you know what? They may not like it right now, but someday, I believe, as they grow into adulthood, they're going to be far more discerning. In fact, it's already begun to occur. I'm watching Samuel – he is being far more discerning about his movies, and I'm smiling big time, because I'm hearing some of those same statements come from his lips that initiated from ours when we challenged him to consider, what were those messages? I think another thing, too, Bob, is ask your children questions. Hold them accountable for what they're viewing, what they're looking at, and make sure what they're doing on the Internet is that they're not sneaking around, they're not watching something they shouldn't be looking at. Bob: You mentioned this earlier, but one of the challenges we face as parents today is that it seems like we've got to be an expert on every area of pop culture. I mean, your child comes home and says, "I got the new CD from so-and-so, and you've never heard of so-and-so, and you don't know whether that's a good thing or a bad thing. Or, "I want to go see this particular movie," and you've never heard of the movie, you don't know anything about the movie. All you know is that your child says that so-and-so from church, their parents are letting them go see it and, for all you know, so-and-so from church is telling his parents that you're letting your child go see it, and so both of you wind up letting your son or your daughter go see something that you otherwise would not approve of. I've been grateful that there are resources on the Internet. I know Focus on the Family has a website called "Plugged In Online," and they do movie reviews and so we can go there and look ahead of time and see what the themes are in the movies, what the objectionable elements are. There are other websites that do the same kind of thing, and I had one of my children come to me not long ago and said, "Can I see this movie? My friend went to see it, and my friend said that there are only a couple of bad words in the movie." And I said, "Well, let's check this out. We'll go to the Web and see what we can find out, and it turned out there weren't just a few bad words, but there were 20 or 25 bad words in this movie, including some that are fully inappropriate for children, and I showed it to my teenager, and I said, "Isn't that interesting? I think a lot of these words have become so common that your friend has become desensitized to what he was hearing." Dennis: One of the things we sought to do in the book was give parents a better understanding of all the ratings systems, both for television, for movies, and other forms of media that they can look over so that they can be better appraised. There are ratings for computer games, and parents need to know what those ratings mean. Most of us are unaware of what those ratings stand for on a box that contains a computer game that you may spend anywhere from $40 to $50 for. One thing I would add to all these ratings – I don't trust them. After I've said here they are and this is a form of measurement, most of these ratings are far too generous and, in my opinion, they represent what's happening in our culture – the moral dumbing-down of our nation. And, as parents, I think what we've got to do is ultimately train our children to be young men and women who are discerning. It could destroy their lives if we don't raise teenagers today to have a godly discernment about what they allow in their minds and their hearts. Barbara: And I just want to say, too, that I think it's important that, as parents, that we remember that there is so much more that our kids need besides just information and just entertainment. Our kids need to be playing, they need to be exercising, they need to be outside, and they need to be building relationships, and so much time is spent consuming media cuts that avenue of their life off, and it's an important part of their development that we dare not ignore. Bob: And I think that's where your book is very helpful, because it does challenge us in these areas, and I'd encourage our listeners get a copy of the book, "Parenting Today's Adolescent," by Dennis and Barbara Rainey. We've got it in our FamilyLife Resource Center, you can go to our website at FamilyLife.com to request a copy, or you can call 1-800-FLTODAY, that's 1-800-358-6329. Someone on our team can let you know how you can get a copy of this book or, again, you can order from our website at FamilyLife.com. If you go to our website, you click the red "Go" button that you see in the middle of the screen. That will take you to the area of the site where there is more information about Dennis and Barbara's book. You can order it online, if you'd like, or call 1-800-FLTODAY and someone on our team will let you know how you can get a copy of this book sent out to you. When you do get in touch with us, if you are able to help with a donation of any amount for the ministry of FamilyLife Today, I just want to say in advance, we would appreciate whatever you can do to help support the ministry. We're listener-supported, and it's donations from folks like you that keep this program on the air in this city and in other cities all across the country. And this month we wanted to say thank you for your financial support by making available a brand-new resource from Dennis Rainey called "Interviewing Your Daughter's Date." This is a very practical guidebook for dads to help us with the information we need and to help give us some courage as we begin to engage young men who show up around our house and are interested in taking our daughters out to spend an evening with a group of kids. We had to spend a little time talking with those young men before we give our approval to that, and Dennis walks us through that process in this new book. We'd love to send you a copy, again, as our way of saying thank you for your financial support for this ministry. You can make a donation online at FamilyLife.com, and if you do that, when you come to the keycode box on the donation form, just type in the word "date" so we'll know to send you a copy of this book. Or make your donation by calling 1-800-FLTODAY and just mention that you'd like a copy of the free book from Dennis this month. We're happy to send it out to you and let me say thanks in advance again for your support of the ministry. We appreciate your partnership with us. Tomorrow we want to talk about one of the other deadly traps that has been laid for our teenagers, and it's tied to the media trap we've been talking about today. It's the issue of pornography. I hope you can be with us as we deal with that subject tomorrow. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. _______________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
To find out more about the Wisconsin Great River Road please check out the website www.WiGRR.com Stockholm website: stockholmwisconsin.com Stockholm Pies website: stockholmpieandgeneralstore.comAlan: All along the Great River Road – in Stockholm, Pepin, Maiden Rock – fall is absolutely the most spectacular time of year to come here. It’s beautiful all year. But fall, because of the mix of hardwoods and these beautiful bluffs and the reflection on the water, and the way the road weaves along the shore of Lake Pepin, there is not a more beautiful fall destinationBob: Where is Stockholm?Alan: On the Mississippi River. We’re in an area we call ‘The West Coast of Wisconsin.’ Do you know where Red Wing, Minnesota is?Bob: Yup.Alan: We are 17 miles downriver from Red Wing on the Wisconsin side.Bob: What are some of the fun things to do there?Alan: Here, it’s a lot about the scenery, and it’s a lot about the shopping and the food. Stockholm is a town of 66 people, but there are about 15 little shops, galleries, boutiques, cafes, and of course our pie shop. It’s kind of like a movie set. The other little villages along the area are filled with all kinds of cool stuff and great restaurants and shops. Then there’s the bluffs and the river and the lake. It’s incredible.Bob: Did you say 66 people?Alan: Sixty-six people, yeah.Bob: I couldn’t imagine just having 66 [people]. Is it a block long?Alan: Basically, it’s a block wide and a block long. It’s two streets wide, and there’s one street that divides at the highway and the county road that goes out of town. [It’s] the smallest village in the smallest county in Wisconsin. And it’s become one of the top day trip destinations in the region.Bob: What makes it a day trip destination, do you think?Alan: The drive has a lot to do with it. It’s just a mind-blowingly beautiful drive along the bluffs and the river. I don’t remember what year it was – it was in 2012 or 2013, something like that – The Huffington Post did a big competition for the most beautiful drive in America. Our stretch beat out Highway 1 and the Kona Highway for the most beautiful drive in America.Bob: Which part of the drive – the entire Wisconsin Great River Road?Alan: It is all beautiful, but what’s considered the most scenic section is actually between Bay City, which is just outside of Red Wing, to Pepin. And literally, the most beautiful six miles are Maiden Rock to Stockholm.Bob: Is that why you decided to move there?Alan: Exactly. It started as a second home in the area, which is how a lot of people start because it’s the opposite direction of the traffic for second homes in the Twin Cities. And it is magnificently beautiful – it’s all the food options and everything else.Bob: So how did you start the Stockholm Pie Company and General Store?Alan: Well, the Stockholm Pie Company started almost 11 years ago now. My sister, who lived in Chicago, moved here. She had come to visit my spouse and I, and [she] fell in love with it, just like the rest of us around here. And lo and behold, it turned out that we had this little tiny space in the building that we had just bought where an art gallery was. We thought, what the heck? So we put in the kitchen, and it was supposed to be a little weekend gig for her. It didn’t last to the weekend gig very long. It soon expanded and expanded. It originally started in a space that was about 250 square feet, and it now encompasses about 3,000 square feet. It seats about 60. [There are] multiple production kitchens. We also have a second location in Red Wing. It caught on, is the gentlest way to put it. We were kind of discovered by the Road Food Guide, which then led us to Splendid Table and Gourmet Magazine. It just keeps going on and on from there.Bob: What I think is great is you can seat 60 people in a town of 66.Alan: Isn’t that amazing? And our performing arts center will hold 120, so how many places have a performing arts center with twice the capacity of the town?Bob: I’m guessing Stockholm, Wisconsin, is probably the only place in the world that has that.Alan: Probably.Bob: What do you like best about living in a river town?Alan: A lot of it has to do with the scenic element of it – the bluffs, the views. It is truly magical. There’s really nothing else like it the way we are situated – not just on the river, but where the river becomes Lake Pepin. It gets very wide here. It’s actually the widest natural spot on the Mississippi. It has created this environment of bluff and water that doesn’t exist anywhere else. And there is a whole series of little villages in Bay City, Maiden Rock, Stockholm, [and] Pepin. Tourism kind of took root in Stockholm, and it’s kind of spreading along the ‘West Coast of Wisconsin.’Bob: Does Stockholm have a website?Alan: It does: stockholmwisconsin.comBob: Does Stockholm Pies have a website?Alan: It does: stockholmpieandgeneralstore.com
Invisible Fence Brand of the TriStates / E5- RulesInvisible Fence Brand of the Tri-States319 Northstar RoadWI 54636(608) 399-1266https://tri-states.invisiblefence.comhttps://www.facebook.com/pages/category/Pet-Service/Invisible-Fence-209481692915/Bob: What are the products Invisible Fence Brand has?Karla: We have outdoor containment products. We have indoor avoidance products. We have freedom products such as the door, and we have GPS products. We can do so many things. It’s just amazing what we can do.Bob: I know in the past we’ve talked a little bit about the GPS products. How big of a space can you legitimately contain with an Invisible Fence Brand product?Karla: As big as you want. It’s very cool. The things that we have up and coming are getting even better. Like I said, the technology is there. But Invisible Fence doesn’t just throw technology out and hope that it works. A lot of our products are in the field testing for five, 10 years before we ever see them.Bob: You mentioned to me a while back that you had an opportunity to talk with somebody that had used Invisible Fence for a shelter.Karla: Actually, she’s a rescue. She manages three different rescue groups. One is a national rescue.Bob: What is her name?Karla: Lisa.Bob: So tell me about Lisa.Karla: We got a chance to meet Lisa. Lisa is a very interesting gal, and I’m hoping I can connect you with her. One of things she’s doing with Invisible Fence Brand products, which is totally awesome … Invisible Fence Brand is a training tool. And a lot of dogs that end up in rescue are [there] because they’ve had some issues. Maybe they potty on the carpet. Maybe they have issues with other dogs being around them as far as eating. Invisible Fence Brand products can help with all those things. And what she does is she uses, with her foster groups, she uses Invisible Fence Brand products to help with those problems. It’s training and it’s consistency, and the cool thing about it is that with every dog that comes into that program, if the new adopters choose to purchase – and that’s up to them – Invisible Fence Brand products, those collars and everything go right with the dog so it stays consistent. A lot of people don’t realize this … She and I had a wonderful conversation about this because I’m a foster mom failure, but I’ve done a lot of rescue. It’s interesting when you put a collar on a dog, it’s almost like, ‘I’m yours.’ That dog is like, ‘I am yours.’ And it’s consistent. So if you’re taking the collar off and putting a different collar on and you’re moving that dog around, it’s very confusing for them. So to put an Invisible Fence Brand collar on and they learn the rules and they learn the consistency, that collar stays with them and goes with them to their new home. It gives them stability. It gives them confidence, and it helps prevent dogs from being returned. So it’s saving lives at the end of the day.Bob: So it must be important, as it is with a child, it’s important for a dog to have those same feelings.Karla: Yes, absolutely. Dogs technically have a mentality of a 2- to 3-year-old child.Bob: I’ve been told I do, too.Karla: You are a 3-year-old child. It’s been well-documented over and over again. But you know, the cool thing is that dogs have the sense of, ‘I belong to you. This is my family.’ And if they know the rules, the rules are right there.Bob: How do we find Invisible Fence Brand?Karla: [The website is] invisiblefence.com.
To find out more about the Wisconsin Great River Road please check out the website www.WiGRR.com to find out more about the Ellsworth Cooperative Creamery please check out their website https://www.ellsworthcheese.com/Bob: There are probably a lot of people around the country who don’t know what a cheese curd is. Scott Sweere from Ellsworth Cooperative Creamery. What is a cheese curd?Scott: A cheese curd is a dairy product that is agitated, warmed, curdled. And with a few of the primary ingredients taken out, it will result in a cheese curd. Bob: All right, Scott. I’m going to stop you right there, because that’s totally wrong. A cheese curd is delicious. You bite into it and it squeaks. You can take those things in your pocket with you wherever you go. You can smuggle them into a movie theater. Cheese curds are wonderful.Scott: That sounded a whole lot better than my answer.Bob: I would have to agree with you. So why are they squeaky, then? If you’re taking all that stuff out of them, what makes them squeaky?Scott: That’s just the final product. Like I said, it’s a clean, finished product so you don’t have that whey in the way anymore.Bob: So you’re getting that whey out of the way in order to make it taste as good as it does?Scott: That’s correct.Bob: Wonderful. So is that a process that you guys invented? Are cheese curds something that Ellsworth Cooperative Creamery invented?Scott: No. It’s an ancient story. The story goes that there was a goatherder. He had milk in a leather pouch, and he was traveling. That gave the agitation that he needed. He was also very warm, and that began to curdle that milk. And as that happened, the leather leaked the whey out and left a curd. It was kind of an accident that resulted in a pretty fine product. I love the squeaky cheese.Bob: Do you like the deep-fried cheese curds?Scott: As much as my waistline doesn’t, I love them.Bob: Talking about travel, I know that you’re a motorcyclist. You’ve probably had a lot of chance to cruise up and down the Great River Road. Do you have a specific destination when you hop on your bike?Scott: If it’s just a quick getaway with the wife, we like to head down to Nelson, stop for some ice cream, maybe a barbeque sandwich, and then it’s a happy ride home. If I’m doing a weekend, we always try to go to La Crosse and enjoy some of the things that are going on there and some of the nightlife. We try to make a few stops along the way. Bucknuckles and what used to be called Hansen’s Hold Up is now Vino Over The Valley. Those are always great stops and very biker-friendly and just off the main road a little bit. The Alma Overlook, we always end up stopping there. It’s nice to stop in Prescott; I always stop there. That’s kind of the beginning of things for me. We run into friends and run into people. It’s more of a starting point; we’ll say, ‘Meet us in Prescott at noon.’ Then we head out from there and then head down. Some of those places that I mentioned are almost like must-stops where we always end up there. Bob: Just taking in the beauty of what the Wisconsin Great River Road has to offer. I think it’s funny that a guy that works for a cooperative creamery … The first thing you mentioned is ice cream. That must be in your blood. But then you mentioned a couple of other Wisconsin treasures as well such as stopping at a winery and stopping and having some of the nightlife, which beer is a big thing in the State of Wisconsin. You’re kind of tying in a bunch of different Wisconsin products into your trips.Scott: Absolutely. In fact, I rode with some guys from Minnesota last year pretty extensively. They were always [saying], ‘I want to come to Wisconsin. This is where it’s all happening. There is way more fun going on Wisconsin. Let’s go to your side.’ I’d like to be fair and come over to their side from time to time, but we always end up in Wisconsin.Bob: Where does somebody find the stuff we’ve been talking about?Scott: You’ll want to check out ellsworthcheese.com. It’s as simple as that. We have a very simple process online to go through that. But you can always call us here at the store and we can take your information and ship you directly from here as well. Our number is 715-273-4311.Bob: Only a million pounds of milk a day and 180,000 pounds of cheese curds a day. What are you guys doing with your time?Scott: Sometimes I kind of wonder that myself. I can’t find any.
Invisible Fence Brand of the TriStates / E7 - Freedom Invisible Fence Brand of the Tri-States319 Northstar RoadWI 54636(608) 399-1266https://tri-states.invisiblefence.comhttps://www.facebook.com/pages/category/Pet-Service/Invisible-Fence-209481692915/Bob: So right now my dog, Tony, is looking in the garbage.Karla: Great example. So Tony is going to dig in the garbage, which we’re not going to let him because he’s not going to. But I have solutions for that. We have indoor shields, which are avoidance products, so I can keep Tony out of the garbage. I can teach him to stay out of the garbage.Bob: But if I put it in the garbage, then I’ll be throwing it away.Karla: No, you’re not. You’re not going to put it in the garbage. We’re going to put it by the garbage. We might put it in the garbage can, but in the bottom. And because Tony could really use a friend and another dog in your house …Bob: You’re not getting me to get another dog.Karla: Let’s say Tony needs a buddy. Okay, so Tony, you get another dog, and that dog stays away from the garbage. You could set it up so it just affects Tony and not the other dog. Or, let’s say Tony and the other dog want to compete for each other’s food. Like I see on the floor here you have his dog bowls. We could put an Invisible Fence Brand Shields there, and I can have it set up different pets, different roles. I can have it set up so they can’t get at each other’s food while they’re eating dinner.Bob: You mentioned for two dogs it’s a great solution. But what about somebody who has multiple dogs, like eight or nine or 10? Or 15, like you do?Karla: I use them all the timeBob: Are they that versatile that you’re able to give them that many different … Okay, this dog can do this, this dog can’t do that …Karla: Or both these dogs can do this. Like for instance, in my basement I have two of my dogs that think the basement should be a great place to hide and go potty. So right now I have it set up so those two dogs can’t go down into the basement. But I have other of my dogs that can go down to the basement and it doesn’t even affect them. It doesn’t bother them.Bob: So when all your dogs go downstairs, those two don’t go downstairs?Karla: Correct.Bob: They can’t even go down the steps.Karla: Nope.Bob: Is it something that’s gaudy that’s going to stand out?Karla: Oh, gosh no. You can’t even see mine. I have it hidden on the steps.Bob: Is it the size of a hockey puck?Karla: I have one the size of a hockey puck. I have one the size of a salad plate. I have another that’s as long as a step and about 2 feet wide – like a plank. You could put it in a doorway. You can step on it. If you had someone who is handicapped in your home, they could wheel across it with a wheelchair. It’s great. I can keep dogs out of whole rooms. I can connect those together. I have two stinky sharpeis right now that used to love to go in by the grand piano and lick the piano while she was playing and it was gross and grossing her out. She didn’t want them licking her grand piano, so we set those up and we linked them together. Now they can’t get in there. It’s great. But they can sit outside that room and watch her and listen to her play the piano.Bob: How big of a broadcast area do those have?Karla: Quite large. That’s a huge room. It’s an open concept room. It’s huge. I have four of them linked together.Bob: So those are some of the products. Can you also put some of the Invisible Fence Brand wire in the house too to keep it …?Karla: If I want to, but I don’t need to.Bob: Is that something that if somebody having a new build, could they incorporate that into the … Or putting a new floor into the kitchen?Karla: Absolutely. We have done that. The other product that I haven’t talked a lot about but I’m really starting to fall in love with is our Doorman product. It’s a dog door.Bob: Do you hire somebody to open the door for the dog?Karla: No, but that’s kind of what it is.Bob: I have children for that.Karla: I do, too, but mine all left. Yours will leave eventually, too. Anyhow, I can do it in glass.Bob: How? Karla: We partner with another company.Bob: So with the glass that I have on my backdoor right there?Karla: Yeah, I can do that.Bob: I don’t have to get a new door?Karla: No. And then Tony could let himself in and out as he wanted to. And you can control it as well. You can say, ‘Okay, Tony. You know what? It’s 9 o’clock at night. You are done going outside and barking at the neighbor dog.’ So you can set it up so he can’t do that.Bob: That’s pretty cool.Karla: Or you can say, ‘You know what? It’s 6 o’clock in the morning. You want to go out and pee? Great. I’m not getting up with you.’ You can set it so the door will let him out at 6 in the morning.Bob: So it can go right in the existing glass?Karla: Yes, I can do that.Bob: That’s pretty cool.Karla: Isn’t it?Bob: That’s a newer product?Karla: We have had it for awhile, but we partner with another company that helps us get that in the glass. It’s not cheap, but at the end of the day, you want it to be sturdy. You want it to be stable, and you want it to be effective where your dog can go in and out. It’s peace of mind. I can do walls, too, with it.Bob: I would figure you would probably have to do a wall.Karla: And I can do regular doors, too.Bob: I know that you’ve helped out my neighbor with her dog. She’s got a pass-through door for her dog.Karla: Correct. That’s not a Doorman, but she has a Pet Safe Door. We sell those, too.Bob: So basically there are solutions for anybody. How about any budget?Karla: I have solutions for many budgets – yes, I do. We have barking solutions that I can offer. A lot of times when people get an Invisible Fence Brand solution, it’s all-encompassing. A lot of times a lot of problems dogs are having, whether it be barking or digging, I can take care of a lot of those things just by the freedom of them being able to go outside and be a dog.Bob: How do we find Invisible Fence Brand?Karla: [The website is] invisiblefence.com.
To find out more about the Wisconsin Great River Road please check out the website www.WiGRR.com to find out more about the Lock and Dam system please check out their Facebook page at https://www.facebook.com/usace.saintpaul/Bob: Jim Rand, Chief of Lock and Dams for the St. Paul District Army Corps of Engineers, joining us this month on the Wisconsin Great River Road Microcast. The first question I have for you, Jim, is, what is a lock and dam?Jim: A lock and dam has a dual function: to create pools, and to pass traffic. A lock and dam is very similar to a set of stairs. Each lock has its individual stair height. If we break into two parts, there’s a dam, and what that does is that allows us to maintain a 9-foot navigation channel in the upper Mississippi River. That 9-foot channel allows us to pass loaded commercial traffic – barges, towboats is what they’re commonly referred to – up and down the river system from St. Paul all the way down to the Gulf of Mexico. Bob: So the purpose mainly is for commerce on the river?Jim: Correct. The dam itself is there to maintain the 9-foot navigation channel, and that will allow us to pass commercial traffic.Bob: How much traffic goes on the mighty Mississippi River on a typical year?Jim: Last year, for us, for the St. Paul District, from Lock 10, Guttenberg, Iowa, north, we passed around 107 million tons of commodities.Bob: And that keeps how many trucks off the road? Do you know?Jim: I do. One 15-barge tow is equivalent to about 1,050 semis. So if we look at that in a length scenario, a towboat fully loaded with 15 barges is about a quarter-mile long. And those equivalent commodities in semi trucks, it’s just shy of 14 miles, bumper-to-bumper.Bob: So you’re taking a lot of traffic off the roads. That way, people will be able to get out and enjoy the Great River Road from driving it rather than having to deal with all that traffic from here to there.Jim: CorrectBob: Jim, why would somebody want to stop by and see a lock and dam?Jim: We get a lot of people watching the eagles. We get a lot of otters around the locks, so we have a lot of people watching wildlife. The other thing that they do a lot is, they just stop by to watch boat traffic, and to watch fishermen. We get a lot of the cruise paddlewheelers – the American Queen, Delta Queen, Mississippi Queen. That’s a big event. They put their schedules out well in advance, so we get quite a turnout for those events when those boats pass through. We have several open houses at our locks and dams up and down the river that normally we try to coincide with a local community festival. We allow people on the site so they can see how everything works. We’ll let the kids blow the horn and all that kind of fun stuff. We do allow fishing around our structures from the shore, so we get a lot of fishermen in the spring, summer, fall timeframe. We’ve got a lot of ice fishermen around right now. There’s always quite a bit of action around the lock and dam.Bob: Jim, as you know, this winter has been a winter of records with all the snow that we’ve had. Once that snow starts to melt, it will obviously find its way to the Mississippi. When that happens, do you open up the locks and the dams and allow all of the water to flow so that way it doesn’t flood?Jim: The locks and dams in our district are for navigation purposes only. They’re not flood control structures. Congress has given us the authority to maintain these pools at a certain sea elevation. Our lock operators adjust that dam. There are big gates over there – roller and tainter gates – they adjust that plus or minus normally two-tenths of a foot tolerance from the guidance from our Water Control Management Office up in the district. We can hold back to only a certain flow of water – every site is a little different – and then we raise those gates out of the water and it becomes open river.Bob: What is the life expectancy of the lock and dam structure?Jim: When they were built in the 30s, the life expectancy was 50 years.Bob: Obviously, we’ve gone past that.Jim: Obviously, we’ve gone well past that. We’ve done some significant upgrades to both of our electrical systems, both to our operating systems, to our control houses. Based on our cyclical maintenance, we’ve been able to prolong the lifespan of these structures.Bob: That’s fantastic you’ve been able to do that and keep the history alive. We talked a little bit earlier about the barges. What about pleasure crafts on the Mississippi River? Are they able to lock through?Jim: Yes. We’ll lock just about anything through. The paddleboards where people stand up and paddle, we can’t lock those through, and a jet ski that you have to stand up on to operate, the reason being the operator would be in the water in the locking process. We don’t want that.Bob: Where can people find out more information about how they can see when boats may be going through, or when they can find out when some of the open houses are where they can actually go on and see the insides of a lock and dam?Jim: The best resource today is probably social media. We advertise all of our open houses through our St. Paul District Corps of Engineers Facebook page. That’s probably the one-stop shop for all of our events that are coming up.Bob: Is there a place close by each of those locks where you’re able to tie off and maybe see some of the communities like Perrot State Park or Trempealeau Mountain or downtown La Crosse or Prairie du Chien or any of those places?Jim: Yeah. Most of them have local marinas that rent out slips where you can dock your boat. I’m not sure if you can tie up a boat at Riverside [Park] in La Crosse, but I know Trempealeau, for example, has the Trempealeau Marina. They’ll allow you to tie up there. There are walking paths uptown. I know the Genoa Lock and Dam has tie-off points on the backside of their upper guide wall where recreational boaters can tie off there and go uptown. There are a lot of local resources for a boater to stop and then to walk uptown and check out the local communities.
Invisible Fence Brand of the TriStates / E3- Shield Products Invisible Fence Brand of the Tri-States319 Northstar RoadWI 54636(608) 399-1266https://tri-states.invisiblefence.comhttps://www.facebook.com/pages/category/Pet-Service/Invisible-Fence-209481692915/Karla: We’ve done things in homes where we’ve had two dogs tha - t mom and dad want to feed both their dogs at the same time [and] not one in one room and one in the other. We’ve used our shields products so that each dog can’t get into each other’s food, but can eat at the same time. It’s so cool. We have cats and dogs eating next to each other.Bob: That’s true love right there.Karla: It really is. We have dogs that aren’t allowed to get into the cat litter, but the cat can get into their cat litter. The cat can’t jump on the counter, but the dog can lay next to the counter. It’s really cool the things that we’re able to do.Bob: You mentioned ‘best’ a couple of different times, and you want to do the best for our animals, our pets. Do you think Invisible Fence Brand is the best?Karla: I do. Invisible Fence has spent a lot of money on research. We’re able to tell how often your dog is getting a correction, or if they’re just getting that warning tone, which is totally cool.Bob: So you’re able to pull up a report saying, ‘Your dog got this?’Karla: Yeah. When we look at our programmer, we can tell you … What’s really cool about it is when we start that training process we’ll talk about how many they had, and a lot of people … I play a little game, [and I ask], ‘How many times do you think they activated the collar?’ Believe it or not, they’re usually close. With our Perfect Start Plus training, it’s easy for us to teach the dogs on most stimulations so that they’re not at a high level. They’re never meant to be at a high level unless that’s what they need. We don’t want them at a high level.Bob: Does it change for different breeds?Karla: No.Bob: So it depends on the temperament of the dog?Karla: Absolutely.Bob: That’s a good thing to know, because I think a lot of people might think that, ‘I have a chihuahua,’ or, ‘I have a mastiff.’ Can you help them both? By the sounds of it, you can.Karla: I can. They’re customized for each individual dog. It’s not a, ‘Let’s look on a chart and it’s this breed of dog [and] this many pounds. This is what it should be.’ It’s not like that at all. We’re trained by animal behavioralists to look for cues and to understand how that dog is responding to the system. Then we’re using our tools to verify that information that we have.
Invisible Fence Brand of the TriStates / E2 - Unconditional LoveInvisible Fence Brand of the Tri-States319 Northstar RoadWI 54636(608) 399-1266https://tri-states.invisiblefence.comhttps://www.facebook.com/pages/category/Pet-Service/Invisible-Fence-209481692915/Bob: People are using their animals as maybe an escape from family or children.Karla: It’s not an escape. It’s actually, in my opinion, because we are very disconnected from our friends and family because we’re more connected electronically. We’re disconnected physically. Years ago, you used to go visit grandma and grandpa on Sunday after church. Well, nobody does that anymore. So that hug from grandma or your cousins or all those kinds of things that you had is now replaced by an animal. It’s unconditional love, and that’s what we all want. We look for it.Bob: It boils down to our loved ones. How can Invisible Fence Brand help to nature and nurture that relationship with my best friend?Karla: It can make a relationship better. You already have a great relationship with your dog, but it can make it so much better. Dogs are like children, and when they misbehave it just makes you angry. A lot of times with Invisible Fence Brand, what you can do is build that relationship by being able to go in the yard and play ball with your dog without them being on a chain. You can garden in your yard, and they can be out there with you and not feel like they’re attached to something. The other thing is that it’s freedom. The other part about it is if you do have problem areas in your home where dogs are naughty – let’s say the garbage can. Invisible Fence has products that when you come home after a long day of work and you really just want to be with your friend, but you’re not cleaning up the mess your friend made, and now you resent them because they don’t really know why they did it; they’re dogs. But we can put shields there, they can stay out of the garbage, you don’t come home to a mess, and you can come home to that unconditional love that one dog that waited all day for you. It’s awesome the different things that we do. It’s just really awesome. It’s cool.Bob: I think it’s pretty cool the products Invisible Fence Brand has that helps us to achieve that and to show our pets that they’re truly loved. What are some of your favorite products that you guys have?Karla: I have so many. It’s proving to them that we love them, but it’s also keeping them safe so that we can keep them and love them for as long as we can. That unconditional love doesn’t last forever. We only have them a short period of time, and so we want the absolute best for them, and to keep them safe. Some of our products that we have that I just absolutely love, I love our shields products. I absolutely love them [and] how we can do so many different things with them. When you have two dogs in the house and you’ve got one that pretty much can go anywhere and you’ve got another one that’s really, really naughty, you can make so that the one dog isn’t affected by it and the other dog you’re keeping safe. For instance, my dog, Ella. Ella is very naughty. She is a 14-year-old black lab-basset mix, as you know, and has the most stoic, innocent face of any animal I’ve ever met in my life. Most people look at me and go, ‘Oh, my God. Ella’s naughty?’ I’m like, ‘Oh, she’s the naughtiest dog I have.’ But what’s great about the Invisible Fence shields is that I can keep her out of things that she shouldn’t be into. For instance, we had a cupboard that we didn’t have a shield in. My husband bought a huge tub of chocolate Slim-Fast that he likes to drink in the morning. She got into it.Bob: And there was a mess all over the place.Karla: Oh, my gosh. She flung it all over the walls and then licked them. It was just nasty – very, very nasty. And the other part about it was that she also got sick. She could have died from that. That’s chocolate, and it was a huge, 100-ounce powder that she ate almost all of it. Not only did we have the mess, but we had the fear she was going to be sick. She had a tummy ache for a couple days, and then that was it.Bob: So the shields will work for something like that?Karla: Yeah. Right now we have the shields set up in that cupboard. She can’t get in there. I have another dog that likes to lay next to that cupboard – a little dachshund named Bucky – and Bucky can lay right next to it and doesn’t even know the shield is there. It doesn’t affect him.
Cathy Spatuzzi is a yoga and fitness instructor who works with Integrated MD Care. She shares how she helps patients and her views on why she doesn't fear death and, instead, makes sure she is living in every moment. Books on End of Life Being Mortal, Atul Gawande Knocking on Heaven's Door, Katy Butler Find more in this blog post, here. Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Transcript Dr. Bob: Hello and welcome to A Life and Death Conversation. I'm here today with a good friend and a really valued member of my Integrated MD Care team Cathy Spatuzzi. I'm very excited to introduce you to Cathy and to hear some of her insights. Cathy and I have known each other for a bit, and we've shared some incredible experiences with our patients. We're going to touch on some of those, let you know what Cathy does and how she does it because I think she's really quite an expert in her field and I know that she loves what she does. So, Cathy, thank you for being here and joining us. Cathy Spatuzzi: Hello, Dr. Bob. Thank you for having me. Dr. Bob: Yeah, my pleasure. It's great to see you. I'll share that trying something new, our podcasts, the ones that I've done previously have all been recorded on the phone. Today Cathy is in the office, and we're doing it together. It's really nice to be able to look at her in the eyes as we do this. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah, I agree, face-to-face is very nice. Dr. Bob: Yeah. So Cathy is … her title is yoga and fitness instructor. I know that there's probably a lot of yoga and fitness instructors out there who work in various capacities but that doesn't really begin to explain quite what Cathy does because I've seen her in action and I've seen the results of her work. It's nothing short of magical; I have to say. Cathy goes in and works with some of our sickest and most frail patients. She works with people who have dementia. She works with people of all ages and abilities. They don't even know they're exercising. They actually just think they're playing games and meeting a really cool, fun, person. So Cathy, can you just share a little bit about how that happens, what you do, how you approach your patients and just share a little bit about how that magic happens? Cathy Spatuzzi: Sure. So I got my yoga instructor certificate, and I started teaching seniors. I took an extra class in teaching seniors, and I really loved it. Then I met Dr. Bob, and I've always been a physical exercising person myself, and so I've made up my own little program where I go into a person's home, and we have a whole hour of exercise. So we do physical weights, and whatever that person needs at the time, that's how I meet their needs. So we do dancing, we do marching. I bring some music sometimes. I have little balls that we do exercise with. They're bright and colorful. We play games with the balls. I also have just blown up regular balloons, and we hit the balloon back and forth and play a game that way. A lot of people that used to do tennis or volleyball, they remember that, and their muscles and cells remember that and they really get a lot of fun exercise just hitting the balloon back and forth. They tell me lovely stories. Most of my people are 80 to 90, some are a 100 years old, and they tell me fabulous stories. They all have a very positive attitude in life. Dr. Bob: I've met with people, I've been there after you've been with them and it really is pretty dramatic. A lot of our patients, because a lot of times they don't feel well, they don't have a lot of energy, they're dealing with pain, they're dealing with other challenges, and exercise is not something that they necessarily prioritize or look forward to, but that's not the case with you. They obviously don't feel like they're doing exercise. They don't feel like they're working. There's something else. There's another piece that obviously you're bringing to it, which, to me, it feels like you're just really connecting with them very deeply and appreciating them as human beings, and the exercise just happens as on the side. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes, I agree. I don't think of it as exercise myself. I go in, and I have fun, yes, and I connect with that person one-on-one, find out what they like, what else do they like, then I bring that in with them. Dr. Bob: We've shared a couple of patients that had had some pretty remarkable experiences, people who were not expected to live more than a month or two who through combined efforts have gone on to live for a couple years, people who were not walking who are now walking half a mile to a mile without difficulty. Can you share maybe a little bit about what that's like for you to be part of that? Cathy Spatuzzi: It's a gift. I love all my clients, but to work one-on-one and to see a person that was maybe almost on their deathbed to come back and is living and they want to have a life. One of my sayings is motion lotion. If you don't move your body, you're going to get stiff, and you're not going to feel like moving so let's just keep moving. Some of my other seniors that are more fit, that's what they say, you have to keep moving, you have to keep moving, you have to keep moving. So I keep them moving. Dr. Bob: You keep on moving, and you keep it fun. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah. Well, you have to have fun in life, so why not bring it to your work? Dr. Bob: Yup, I agree 100%. So this is A Life and Death Conversation, and part of what we're trying to do is give people just a look into how we can have an easier time talking about topics that can be difficult: death, illness, debility. So as an example, we are doing that there. We're talking about things that might not come up in normal conversation. I, as you know, go right to the point. I don't mince words. I don't hold back a whole lot. I just want to ask you and get some of your personal perspectives on some of these things, if that's okay. Cathy Spatuzzi: Sure. Dr. Bob: All right. Tell me, do you have … and this is a question I ask all my guests. Are you afraid of dying? Cathy Spatuzzi: No, I'm not afraid of dying. Dr. Bob: You're not afraid of dying. Cathy Spatuzzi: No. Dr. Bob: Well, why? Can you share why you're not afraid of dying? Cathy Spatuzzi: My maternal grandmother always talked to me about death. Dr. Bob: Really? Cathy Spatuzzi: It wasn't morbid. It wasn't like, "Oh, I …" I don't know, she just always talked about it. It wasn't something under the covers. Dr. Bob: Just kept in awareness of it in the home? Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah, like when somebody died, we'd talk about it, or when- Dr. Bob: Okay, how healthy. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes, uh-huh (affirmative), and so I think I've just adopted her attitude and calmness about it. For me, thinking about dying, I think about living. So I'm alive. I can walk and talk, and do all these beautiful things, but let's be present doing it. If you're just walking through life in a fog, then you're not living, but when you think about you're going to die, maybe that's a point where you're going to wake up and start being present in your life. Dr. Bob: Do you feel like thinking about dying, talking about dying is responsible for you having a greater awareness of and maybe gratitude for life? Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes. I think I have gratitude every night before I go to bed. Dr. Bob: I guess, not being dead is a part of that, right? Cathy Spatuzzi: Right. Driving around and you see the beautiful clouds. You might see an airplane. Let's take each moment for today because maybe you will die tomorrow. Let's be grateful for what we have today, not think about what if, what if, what if it's going to happen. I pray that I have a beautiful day and then I have a beautiful meal and then I go to sleep and die. Not tomorrow. Dr. Bob: Not tonight, yeah. Cathy Spatuzzi: Not tomorrow. I got- Dr. Bob: Because I know you have some things to do this weekend. I know you have some plans. Cathy Spatuzzi: I know, yeah. I have plenty more years ahead of me, but that's what I've always thought about, nice and peaceful. Dr. Bob: Beautiful. Interesting. We both are spending time now with people who believe that they may not have a lot of time left, some of them because they're elderly and some of them because they have a terminal illness, and in some of those conversations, I hear people talking about how their time is so limited. Occasionally, they get into this pattern of feeling bad about it, and I wouldn't say necessarily feeling sorry for themselves, but focusing on how their life is going to be shortened and they're aware of that. I always accept that. I never try to convince them to think differently. That's their thought, and I would never judge that, but what I'm aware of is that there's no guarantee for any of us. I may have a patient who has a prognosis, a life expectancy of three or four weeks. There's a lot of people who are going to die unexpectedly before that person dies. We may be one of them. We have no guarantees, and so focusing on what we have today like you're talking about like you're suggesting being grateful for the fact that we are alive and that most of what's going on in our life is good, may not be perfect. Jon Kabat-Zinn, the creator of the mindfulness-based stress reduction program, had a phrase that I love and I repeated often. It's, "As long as you're breathing, there's more right with you than wrong with you." Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes, I agree. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Cathy Spatuzzi: That's beautiful. Dr. Bob: Sometimes if somebody is lamenting about the pain that they're having, the limitations that they're having, just remembering how many trillions of things are happening simultaneously in our body, the chemical process, the cellular division, the fact that everything is working as it's designed to, except for a few things, which could be significant things, it's still a magical design. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah, the body is an amazing piece of work. Dr. Bob: Yeah, and you're doing a great job of keeping it amazing. Cathy Spatuzzi: Thank you. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Cathy Spatuzzi: I love working with the clients, yeah. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Some of our clients die, right? Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes, they do. Dr. Bob: Yeah, they do. How do you deal with that? Cathy Spatuzzi: It's difficult at first. Dr. Bob: Because you spend more time with them even than I do. You're with them sometimes two or three times a week and getting very close, getting very connected with them. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes. When they die, going into this though, I mean that's part of life, and I knew that but when they die, I go into myself and remember all the good times that we had together, but then that also brings up for me my own experience with my own family and dying. So then it's almost like I grieve all of them: my parents, my grandparents, a friend all over again, which isn't a bad thing. Yes, it's sad and, yes, I cry, but there's another layer of deepening, of healing, of comfort for me. Dr. Bob: So when a patient dies, when somebody who you've been working with a client, it sounds like you're allowing that experience to create another layer of connection with other people who have gone before them, with your family. It allows you to grieve all of death, all of the people who have gone. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes, I grieve all of the people that have died that I know and then I think about where did they go … all the same, questions come up for me. Where did they go? Where does the spirit go? Where does the soul go? Where does the brain …? I've read a lot of books, and I still don't have any answers. Dr. Bob: Oh, darn it. I was hoping that you were going to give me the answer now. Cathy Spatuzzi: No, I don't have any answers, and that's okay. I'm comfortable with that. Dr. Bob: So you don't know but what do you think? Where do you think … what's your thought about what happens after we die? Cathy Spatuzzi: Well, I believe that the physical body dies. I would like to believe that there is an after realm, rather you call it heaven or reincarnation. Those are the things I don't know, but it would be nice to see some people again that have gone before me. Dr. Bob: So you're not positive. Cathy Spatuzzi: No, I'm not positive. Dr. Bob: What percentage of certainty are you that there's something else? Cathy Spatuzzi: 50/50. Dr. Bob: 50/50. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah, and I'm comfortable with that. It's because I've thought about it so much. Dr. Bob: Well, if there is … Oh, that's nice. You're like right on the 50-yard line there. So if there is something else, then that's great, and we'll be hopefully very pleased to find out, and if there isn't, well then we will never know, right? Cathy Spatuzzi: Right. I've asked some of my relatives that were dying. I said, "Now, when you get wherever you're going, wherever that is, give me a sign." Dr. Bob: And? Cathy Spatuzzi: I haven't gotten anything. Dr. Bob: You haven't gotten anything. I have. I think I've shared that, my dragonfly connection. Cathy Spatuzzi: I did have a feeling, but not necessarily like a physical sign, like a picture or something, but I've had feelings of my grandmother touching my hand. I knew it was her. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Cathy Spatuzzi: I knew it was her. Dr. Bob: Okay. So then- Cathy Spatuzzi: So maybe yeah. Dr. Bob: Yeah, I'll go with that. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Dr. Bob: Cool. It's interesting because there are … I hear that people are very uncomfortable talking about death. I hear that all the time. People don't want to talk about it. They want to ignore it, pretend it's never going to happen. I don't have that experience with people, and maybe it's just because I draw it out. But in the conversations that I or maybe people who … Maybe those people like walk away when they see me coming; I don't know. But I actually find that people want to talk about it and given the opportunity, they're drawn to the conversation. It's interesting because I find some people want to talk about a bad experience and maybe it's because I'm a physician and I make it safe, but they want to share how traumatic this was and complain … not complain, but just put it out there and it seems like it's little cathartic when they talk about how difficult an experience was. Then there's another group of people who were really transformed by a beautiful experience around death and dying of a friend or a loved one, and they also want … it's cathartic for those people as well. I find it really fascinating how much people want to have this conversation when it's brought up in a way that's safe, and someone clearly wants to hear what they have to say, what their thoughts are. Cathy Spatuzzi: I have found that some people just need somebody else to listen. They haven't found that person, and maybe that's you. Dr. Bob: Yeah, maybe, maybe. I'll tell you that sometimes my wife, Sandy, it gets a little overwhelming for her because she's with me and we'll be either at dinner, we'll be at a party, and I start talking to somebody and she goes away and comes back, and we're deep into this conversation about how their mother passed away or the complexities of certain situations. I just find that that's sort of a natural thing that's happening. Cathy Spatuzzi: You have a gift. Dr. Bob: I don't know it's a gift, but it's an interesting phenomenon, so. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah. Dr. Bob: Do you have any experiences that were either challenging or really beautiful that you want to share? Cathy Spatuzzi: My maternal grandmother, Jenny, she was 80 years old. She fell and broke her hip. I was her guardian because my mother had already passed away years ago, which is a whole another story. But I was in the nursing home room right beside my grandmother, and she was dying. I could see her coming in and out of what I call crossing the veil. She wasn't exactly sleeping, but she was testing the veil and then coming back. She'd come back, and she'd say, "Oh, Cathy, you're here," and then we would talk and I was able to tell her how grateful I was for all the time that I got to spend with her closely after my mother died. She said, "Oh, I want to die," and I said, "Okay, I don't want you to suffer. It's okay." She said, "But I don't want to leave you." I said, "Grandma, it's okay. I'm going to be fine." Then the next day she died. So, and I've heard this similar kind of story from several other people and the person that's dying just needs permission. Dr. Bob: But you weren't there when she actually died? Cathy Spatuzzi: No, I wasn't in the room when she died. I was there the day before. Sometimes they don't want to die with you in the room. Dr. Bob: Yup, that happens frequently. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes, yes. Dr. Bob: Which is hard, which is a challenge because you don't want to leave. A lot of times people don't want to leave. They feel like they're supposed to be there through the very end, to the last breath, and it's hard to know what's happening. So there are times when someone does step away, they go to the bathroom, they run out to get something for somebody, and they slip away, and that's the way it's meant to be. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes, I agree. Dr. Bob: Yeah. When you describe … what was the word you used? Cathy Spatuzzi: Crossing the veil or testing, testing the veil. Dr. Bob: Crossing the veil. Testing the veil. Can you share a bit more about that? What made you believe that she was testing the veil and not just like napping or falling asleep briefly? Cathy Spatuzzi: I can't describe it any other way, but I could feel her body, her spirit, not really her physical body, but her spirit, her soul, and I didn't … I could see something but it's kind of this feel-see type of a thing, and I knew she wasn't exactly sleeping because I could feel it going out, this energy, and then coming back in. When she would come back in, you would see her body be more alert and then she'd open her eyes and then we'd talk a little bit and then … I could tell if she was sleeping versus doing this testing. Dr. Bob: Fascinating. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Cathy Spatuzzi: It was great. Dr. Bob: That's great, yeah. I hear about, read about and I've seen people who I believe are in that place. Testing the veil, I haven't heard that description, but I like it. I truly believe that as people get closer to death, they're in two worlds, right? Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes. Dr. Bob: They cross. They slip back and forth. So if we really believe that, then it certainly gives us a little bit more comfort and assurance that there is something on the other side because that's what they're testing, that's what they're exploring. I've seen people in the last moments or hours of life reaching out, talking about people who they see, loved ones, and I know that a lot of people would write that off as hallucinations, as due to medications. They're not really there. But I completely believe that they are making a connection with the spirit world and those who they are going to be reunited with on the other side. I can't prove it. I know that there are books written about it, a number of good books, and we can put some of those resources on the website to share, but I implore people, I welcome you to read some of these things because it really does provide quite a bit of comfort. If you're uncertain or you're worried about everything just ending or what might happen after death, reading about the experiences of people who fully believe that they were on the other side and came back to be able to tell about it can be very reassuring. Cathy Spatuzzi: Even the people that have been in terrible car accidents and then they've been rushed into the surgical room, and they have a story that they're up on the ceiling watching their body being operated on and then after that, they come back in, and they come and tell their story. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Cathy Spatuzzi: So, yes, it seems like a very pleasant place. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah, but I guess- Dr. Bob: No, I don't think I have ever heard anybody come back and say, "Wow, that was really bad. I mean that was like fire and brimstone, and I don't want to go there." Of course, as a physician, I'm supposed to be very scientifically minded. I know there's a lot of cynics, a lot of skeptics, and everyone is welcome to their own beliefs and opinions. I choose to believe that there is something beautiful waiting for us and you have the ability; we have the ability to access it on this side. I do believe that the walls become more permeable, the closer we get to death. I feel that comforts me and apparently, you've had experiences where you feel the same. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes. Yes. Dr. Bob: Yeah. So I just want to ask one last question before we wrap it up. What's most important to you in life? Because this is life and death. We talked about death. We've also talked about the way that you enhance people's lives, which is incredible. But for you personally, what is the most important thing for you in life that makes life really beautiful for you? Cathy Spatuzzi: Being present as best I can in the moment and being kind to myself and being kind to others. Dr. Bob: That's a good way to be, and you are doing that incredibly well. Cathy Spatuzzi: Thank you, Dr. Bob. It's a pleasure. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Thank you for being with us. I look forward to having you back on another time if you're willing? Cathy Spatuzzi: Sure, yeah. Thanks for inviting me. Dr. Bob: All right, you have a good day. Thanks, everybody for tuning in. Cathy Spatuzzi: Bye. Dr. Bob: Bye-bye.
Diane Forster is an Intentional Living Expert and author of "I Have Today". Diane talks about her attempted suicide, how she changed her life and is now helping others. Hear what helped turn her life around. Contact Diane Forster website Transcript Dr. Bob: I'm here with my guest, Diane Forster, and I'm really excited about having this conversation with Diane. She's an incredibly dynamic woman. I was only recently introduced to Diane through a mutual friend, and this friend somehow knew that Diane and I were kind of kindred spirits and would hit it off and have a lot in common, and I'm excited about where this friendship is going, and I just immediately felt that Diane would be somebody who our listeners would really like to hear from. She has a very interesting story. She's made quite a dramatic shift in her life that was inspired by things that she'll be willing and happy to share with you. Diane, she calls herself an intentional living expert, and she's a coach, mentor, and facilitates masterminds. She is very well educated and trained in NLP and human interaction technology. She works with clients privately in their professional and personal goals, has really helped transform many lives, and it really comes from having hard her own transformation in her life. She's an author, a best-selling author of a book called I Have Today, Find Your Passion, Purpose and Smile Finally, and is the founder of I Have Today, which really focuses on helping women living more empowered, fulfilling lives. Interestingly, Diane's also an inventor, and I will let her share more about how that has happened and what being an inventor has brought to her life and means to her. So Diane, thank you so much for being here. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Diane Forster: Thank you so much, Bob. Thank you for having me. I'm honored to be here, and I feel the same way, kindred spirits immediately. Dr. Bob: So, we're talking about life and death. As you know, my focus is on ... I mean, I think we have a lot of alignment. My focus is on helping people live a more peaceful and meaningful life in the face of challenges. I didn't necessarily come to this calling, or I didn't find it, it didn't find me for a while, but once it did, it's been driving me, inspiring me, pretty much every moment of my life, and it's about having a meaningful life, and it's about having a peaceful and self-determined end of life. So, you ... In our initial meeting, you really kind of blew me away with where you came from and what you were experiencing and where you are now. So, would you be willing to share a little bit about that? Diane Forster: Of course. I'm happy to. You know when I was in my late 20's, I got married, and I married a man that, we weren't really in love with each other, but we loved each other, and it just seemed like the timing to ... It was the time of life to do that, and I grew up with a mom and a dad who really, didn't really love each other ... Weren't in love with each other, but did love each other. Let me say that better. And so I never really witnessed any real romantic, intimate connection between the two of them, so I grew up thinking that's what marriage looked like. So, of course, I attracted a man into my life who was similar, and while we had a deep love for each other in some ways, we didn't have that connection, and I struggled in that marriage for many, many years, trying to make it work. And what was happening to me is I just didn't want to walk away. I didn't want to be a failure. I didn't want to give up on it. I thought I could make it work, and it just was not working, and my soul and spirit were chipping away, day after day, month after month, year after year until many years into it, almost 20 years into it, I just couldn't take it anymore, and one night, in June of 2011, I attempted to take my life. I just thought I can't feel this pain and loneliness anymore. And so what happened to me in the bathroom that night, was I had two full bottles of pills in my hand, and I was ready to end it all, and they got knocked out of my hand, and the voice that I heard told me, "You are not ending your life this way, Diane. You need to go get help. You need to tell your story because you need to help others." And being a very intuitive person, I just threw my hands up and said, "Well, you need to show me the way." And so, that was a pivotal moment in my life, and that lowest, lowest point for me was the thing that needed to happen for me to catapult me out of that state and out of that place in my life and really reach out for help. And so I did the next day and reached out to a therapist, and I said, "I need your help. I need to change my life." And so it took about six more months to get out of that relationship, but when I did, after a brief grief period, I went into a deep introspection and personal development and spiritual awakening and ownership of my part of that relationship not working and where I was in my life at that moment, the condition of my life, and I decided in that moment, I want an extraordinary life. I don't want to live this way, and so I really delved deep into everything that I could get my hands on to read and to watch and to attend and listen to, and what was happening to me, Bob, was I really starting to heal in a very profound way and live in a very different way than I had been living before. I was alive. I was awake. My spirit was nurtured and felt loved and what it was that I came to was I had no self love. I had such low self-esteem and low self love for myself, and I developed it in this process. I started writing a lot. Getting all these downloads, and so I would get this hits of inspiration in the middle of the night, and I would write poetry stories, and one night, in August of 2013, I woke up with a poem I Have Today in my head, and so I got up. I wrote it down right away, and it was I have today to love and be loved. I have today to start fresh anew, and it went on and on and on, and when I finished the poem, I looked at it, and I said, "This is way more than a poem. This is a movement. This is what God was talking to me about that night in the bathroom in June of 2011." And that's the moment that the idea of I Have Today was birthed where I really wanted to help and support mostly women because I knew so many women were feeling the same way I was, and I see this every day, so that was really where I started back in June of 2011 and where I am fast-forward to today. I'm now living a life that I've completely manifested, and I've completely reinvented myself, and am living the life of my dreams really intentional and purposeful every single day, and now I help others to do the same thing. Dr. Bob: Wow. I don't know that there's really another word that would actually be appropriate right now, but wow. I mean, you shared this with me the first time we met, and I remember having this feeling, the same feeling, but I'd forgotten part of that story, and it just kind of came back to me powerfully. So number one. Good for you. Phenomenal how beautiful that you went from this place of despair where you were really on the brink of death to where you are now, and not just having sort of reinvented yourself and found your own bliss, but taking that experience and taking that incredible pain that you were going through and using that to fuel the career that has now, I'm sure, been able to inspire and support many, many other people in finding their path out of that. Diane Forster: Yes. Dr. Bob: And not just taking people who are in despair and considering suicide, but taking people who are living an average life or what they feel is a mediocre life and being able to decide that they're going to have an extraordinary life too. Diane Forster: You said the magic word. It's a decision, and it is a choice, and it takes a lot of help. It takes a lot of support, but yes, it is something that you really have to decide for yourself, how do you want to live every day? How do you want to feel every day? And so along my path with it, I've developed a lot of different processes, a lot of three-step processes that I've made it easy for me to catch myself when I'm not living in the present moment and to help and support me on this journey to keep that positive momentum going every single day, moving it forward, feeling alive, feeling fulfilled, feeling the expansion and the growth and all of that. For me, I could've never imaged that my life would've taken the turn that it's taken, but I feel such fulfillment and joy every day helping and serving others to help them create the life of their dreams. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Well, so we were so aligned there, and what's interesting as well is that our journeys have been parallel. I don't remember ever being at that place of despair. I've been married for going on 30 years, and I love my wife more today than I did when we first got married, and I feel very incredibly blessed. It hasn't always been easy. I would be lying if I said that there haven't been challenges and struggles along the way, so I haven't had to deal with that, but I've had career burnout and stress and of course, my own struggles, and in 2011, is when I decided that I'd had enough of the life that I was living and settling for and decided that I needed more, and that's when I got inspired and started doing a lot of soul searching and a lot of reading and a lot of self development and became more spiritual and started on this journey, which has led me to the place where I am now. And then you mentioned August of 2013 as a ... What happened on August 13, remind me? Diane Forster: That was the birth of "I Have Today" when I wrote the poem. Dr. Bob: Okay. That's when you woke up with that poem. So, in April of 2013, just a couple months before that, I had my epiphany where I became very clear that I'm here to help people die, and from that moment on, providence has opened up incredible opportunities and allowed me to then take who I've become and what I've learned to be in this place of supporting people through complex and terminal illnesses. We are working in a different model in many cases with different people, but I feel like we've both received something so meaningful and deep that has allowed us to live with this ... To live on purpose. Diane Forster: Yes, yes. Dr. Bob: To live on purpose. To have recognized that we're here for something bigger and that we just put ourselves into it, learn what we can, and become vessels for people to have the kind of life that they desire and ultimately the kind of death that they wish for. Diane Forster: Yeah. That's beautiful. Really beautiful. Dr. Bob: So, thank you so much for sharing that, and I know I still have stills. I don't know ... When I get goosebumps and chills, it really feels to me that this is a universal truth, there's something really deep, connection that's happening. Diane Forster: Well, I feel it too, and it blows me away. It's cause it's so big. It's so big. My mission is so big, but I'm open to it and receptive to it and willing participant in the journey of it, and why not me? And why not you? This is our ... This has become our path. We've discovered it, and our mission on this physical journey is to do this sort of work and serve in such a powerful, and I feel blessed to be chosen. I know you do too. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Yeah. And I think one of the things that I'd like to put out there for everyone who's listening is we're not any different than you. Right? Diane Forster: Exactly. Exactly. Dr. Bob: You have a path. You have a calling, a purpose that's within you wanting to get out, and if you don't feel it yet, if you don't know what it is, keep looking for it. Keep searching. Keep reading. Keep meditating. Change things that aren't working for you because you're no different than us. You have the ability to have a major impact and to feel like you're in the flow of the universe. So that's what I wish that. Interestingly, I put a post on Facebook; I think it was yesterday about this. I went to buy my son a bicycle the other day. He's 11, and it was a birthday present, and I feel bad because we had put it off for a couple weeks, and he kept asking, "Where's my bicycle?" Well, it's coming. So I went to the store finally to get the bicycle, and the guy who was behind the counter was really friendly, and at some point, he just said, "What do you do for a living?" And I said, "I'm a physician." And he said, "Oh what kind of physician?" And I said, "I help take care of people in their homes with complex and terminal illnesses and make sure that they have the most support and the most peace and comfort possible." And he asked a couple more questions about that, and the kind of dragged out me that I feel like it's my calling that I'm doing what I'm here to do. And he was so ... He immediately kind of latched on to that, and he said, "What does that feel like? I want to know what that feels like because I want to be following my passion. I want to know what my calling is, and I think I might know, but I'm struggling against it." And so he emailed me, and he asked me if I'd have lunch and talk about that further. So it's just another example of when you're living in alignment with your purpose, and what you're here to do, people see it. They feel it, and they're drawn to it because that's what they want as well. Diane Forster: They do. They want to feel alive. They want to feel purpose-driven, and this is a lot of the work that I do too. I do these transformational sessions with people as well because they feel the pull. They pull the call, but they can't identify what it is quite yet, but they know they're meant to do something more with their life and their time here on this planet. They know it, and they feel that gap, that missing link, that piece there, and I get it. I see it every day with people, and I work with people all the time on it because, as you know, now that you're living it, me too, how it drives you. You don't drive it. It propels us forward. And you're right, Bob. Every single person has a purpose, and most of our purposes are defined from our pain. Like mine was defined from your pain, and yours was defined from a frustration and a pain point as well, and that's really where it comes from is through your pain, you might be able to identify what your purpose is. Dr. Bob: So that's where you need to start the search. Diane Forster: Start. Yes. Dr. Bob: Not to give up. Not to feel sorry for yourself, not to stay down and lick your wounds, but to use that as the fuel to inspire, to catapult you towards where you're meant to be. I love that. I feel inspired because we're talking about this concept. I read to my team yesterday. We have team meetings, and I have myself, my nurse practitioner, nurse, outreach director, practice director, and we're all very much on this path of ... We're all just incredibly excited about what we get to do every day, what we get to bring to our patients and to our families, and I read them this excerpt, which I'm sure you have read from Mary Ann Williamson, so I just feel like now would be a good time to do that. Diane Forster: Okay. Dr. Bob: To take a moment here and to let people who have not heard this excerpt from ... It was actually read by Nelson Mandela in his 1994 inaugural speech, and it's called ... I know you're familiar with it. It's called Let Your Light Shine. Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented and fabulous. Actually, who are you not be? You are a child of God. You're playing small doesn't serve the world. I want to read that again. I love that. You are a child of God. Your playing small doesn't serve the wall. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us. It's in everyone, and as we let our light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear, our presence automatically liberates others. Diane Forster: Just love it. Of course, I love it. Dr. Bob: I know. Diane Forster: In fact, it's my favorite book. That book was so instrumental on my journey, a return to love. It was incredible. Dr. Bob: Me too. It's right up there on top. So phenomenal, incredible. Well, let's ... This is a life and death conversation, and we've been talking a lot about life, right? Diane Forster: We have. Dr. Bob: And I think that's appropriate. In this conversation, the majority of what we talk about is going to be about life, how to enrich life. How to have a fulfilling life. How to get through the fear and have the most joy and meaning and life, but the death part of it can't be ignored. Diane Forster: Right. I agree. Dr. Bob: And so for me personally, that sort of the punctuation mark. I see that we have this amazing life, that we have all this opportunity, and death is sort of the finale. It's the grand finale. We need to be celebrating death, life too, but celebrating death instead of fearing it, developing a more comfortable relationship with it, and preparing for it. Diane Forster: Right. Dr. Bob: And then, we get to have a more peaceful fulfilling life without having to worry so much about what comes at the end. Diane Forster: I couldn't agree more. I could not agree more with that, and I have had my own experience with death. I lost my mom. She was 53 years old, and I'm actually 53 right now, so I can't even imagine that experience for her. So that was over 20 years ago, and she passed away from colon cancer, and nowadays, it would've not taken her life, but back then, that was her path, that was her journey, and I noticed a lot of things transpired within my family and our nucleus during that time because my ... We were living in different states, but what happened in that journey and that time together for all of us, it really does bring out the best and worst in people. When I say that, I don't mean worst like the bad in them. It's just their level and capacity of dealing with something like this, something so big like that, and so a lot of what I teach is in my processes is about that every single moment of your life is a gift, even those different moments, and the way my mother got sick in her journey and her passing was such a gift in my life. I felt her love. I knew how much she loved me. She knew how much I loved her, and what came out of that was my father and my sisters and I became incredibly close. Now we were close before, but we came incredibly close and formed family traditions that we've been carrying on. My kids have grown up with them. My nieces sand nephews have grown up with them, and it really changed our relationship. I told you I'm really intuitive, and I believe it was my mother who knocked the pills out of my pills that night without question, and what I'd want to say to your listeners is that even though they cross over, and they die, and they stop their physical experience, their human experience, they are still around and aware, and you can still have a relationship even though you can't see them. You can still feel their presence and their essence around you, and that it's their journey. It's their path, and there's really nothing you could've done about it anyway. It's that guilt that we take on, but that's their contract with their experience of how much time they're supposed to have here, and so just to live intentionally, live in the present moment, and really just embrace them for exactly who they are and what their journey and their path is. So anyway, I just wanted you to know that I've had first-hand experience with losing somebody that I loved deeply, early on in my life, and what I got out of that experience for all of us. Dr. Bob: Thank you so much for sharing that. I could actually almost feel your mom's presence as you were describing that and talking about how she impacted that ... How she knocked the pills out of your hand. I believe that as well. Diane Forster: Yes. Dr. Bob: You know the interesting thing, what you were saying about people being more present with you after they pass. I had that same feeling with my parents. When they were alive, and both my parents died in the past two or three years. When they were alive, we were very close, and I was fortunate that for the last seven years of their life, we lived really close to each other, but I would only connect with them when I called them, or we were together, and we were either talking on the phone or together in person, and that's when we would be connected. Otherwise, I kind of felt like I was on my own, and they didn't really know what was happening in my life, and I can kind of get away with stuff. Diane Forster: Right, right. Dr. Bob: After they died, each of them ... And they died about a year apart, but after they were gone, I felt so completely aware of their presence all the time, that they were no longer ... There as no longer any disconnect. There was no longer any separation which means that they were there, aware of everything that I was doing, thinking, saying, and I became a better person because I felt like I couldn't get away with anything anymore, and it was really ... It was so comforting for me, and also a little bit disconcerting. Diane Forster: Right, right. Dr. Bob: You know, you can't get away with anything anymore. So, of course, I would rather have them physically here so that I could touch them, hug them, and have that type of connection, but I know that we are not separated. Diane Forster: No. No, and there's only love. That's all that they have for you is love, so don't worry about not getting away with anything. They don't care. Dr. Bob: I get it. I feel that too. There's a little bit of that kind of self, just self regulation or whatever, and I guess I use it. Have you heard about the idea of living your life as if you're always being video ... As if the whole world is watching. Diane Forster: Yes, yes. Dr. Bob: And I can imagine that they would get a little old after a while. Diane Forster: Yes, yes. Dr. Bob: But mostly. Every once in a while we got to turn off the video. Anyway, I feel like ... Well, first of all, everything that you've shared has been incredibly valuable, and do you ever ... In your work with clients, do you ever approach issues or concerns about death and where that might create blocks or anxiety or fear for them? Diane Forster: I do. I do actually. In fact, a recent client of mine is caretaker to her mom, and a lot of guilt and challenges come up around that for her, so yes. So I do work with that, and I do my part to really have her just own her journey and her piece of it and to value the relationship that she has with her mother and see her mother for who she is, and that she is the same person she has always been. That spirit is still the same, and that there are challenges that come up, and I'm sure you see this all time. When you're dealing with something like this ... Like I said, it brings out the best and worst in people, and some people just really don't know how to process that in a way, and so I do a three-step process called breathe, think, praise, and it really allows you to let yourself off the hook and let the other person off the hook no matter what it is, and just breathe in the moment. Take the other person ... Don't take anything personally, what's coming at you, and then allow them to be in their grace of exactly who they are, doing the best they can, in that given moment because that is really what they're doing. That is the best that they have in that moment. So I'm dealing it more with the ... You do too, but I haven't dealt with the crossing over quite yet too much, but what they're still alive and dealing with those situations and the stress that comes along with that. If that makes sense? Dr. Bob: Totally. It totally makes sense because your principles are applicable for every phase of life and every type of challenge that people are facing dealing with illness and dealing with people who are dying is obviously one of the most substantial challenges that any of us ever face. Well Diane, I kind of feel like we can just basically stay on the phone and have this conversation for hours and hours, and I will relish the opportunity to do this again, both in this format and in person and any other way that we can connect because I do think that we're kindred spirits, so it's wonderful. Diane Forster: Absolutely. I'm happy to do it any time. Dr. Bob: Great. So I know that there are people listening who are resonating with your message, with your style, with who you are. I would love for them to have a way to connect with you. So can you share how people can connect and anything else you would like to share about how people can gain value from what you've created? Diane Forster: I'd love to. One of the best ways to get ahold of me is go to my website at DianeForster.com. And then on Facebook, I'm at I Have Today with Diane Forster. And then all other social media is here. But what I'd like you to do is, I have a freebie on there, it's a great gift, three tips on how to get everything you want. So all you do is scroll down and add your name and email address, and it'll get delivered to you, but I have different products and services. I do transformational strategy sessions. I also do a personalized mantra with a session. So if it's somebody who mediates or wants to meditate but hasn't really found their thing that's fitting them, what we do is I take ... Through our strategy session, I put together a personalized, customized mantra just for you. It's specific to you and your life, your fears, your doubts, your goals, your dreams. All of it. So just different things like that, that I do that are really focused on that person's individual needs. Dr. Bob: Fantastic. Well, sign me up for that one. Diane Forster: Okay. Dr. Bob: I want some of that.
Dr. Rob Jonquière is the Executive Director of the International Federation for Right to Die Societies. He shares how euthanasia is helping people who want to die in the Netherlands. Now, assisted suicide is also legal. Hear how this is impacting the country. Contact World Federation of Right To Die Societies website San Diego Hemlock Society website Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Transcript Dr. Bob: Welcome to another episode of Life and Death Conversation. I'm Dr. Bob Uslander, and I'm here today with a guest who I'm anxious to hear from. He's got a rich experience in caring for people at the end of life, and he's really on the forefront of the movement to assist people in having a more peaceful and dignified end of life worldwide. So, welcome Dr. Rob. Jonquière. Thank you for joining me today. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Good evening, yes. Dr. Bob: Yes. It is evening. For me, it's morning, for you it's evening. Dr. Rob Jonquiere: Sorry. Dr. Bob: Can you tell us where you're calling, where we're talking from? DrRob Jonquière: Amsterdam, in the Netherlands. It's evening here at this moment. Dr. Bob: Very nice, and you were just mentioning to me that you're in the midst of winter, but you're having some- Dr. Rob Jonquière: It's not a real winter, unfortunately. It's too hot. They are expecting a little bit colder next week, of course, in my youth, I used to go skating outside, and it is a long time since we have been able to do that, so probably the climate change, I'm afraid. Dr. Bob: Well, as you know, I'm in sunny San Diego right now, having grown up in the Midwest in Chicago, I had my fair share of snowy, cold winters, so I'm feeling fairly blessed knowing what's happening in the Midwest and the East Coast right now. Well, again, thanks for taking time. We met not long ago, a month or two ago, when you were here in San Diego at a conference, and I got to a chance to hear a bit about your background and what you're involved with, and I think we are kind of birds of a feather. We seem to share a belief system and philosophy about how people should be cared for and supported at the end of life. You live in a very progressive country, with respect to this, and you've been a pioneer for many years, so I'd love for you to share a bit about what you're doing and kind of give us a sense of how you came to be in this position. What was the path that brought you here? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yeah. Well, actually, at this moment, I'm involved in the international movement as it is called, the Federation for Right to Die Societies, which is an international federation of 52 societies, like the Hemlock Society of San Diego is one of the members, and I am the executive director of that federation, which implies actually looking after the website of the federation and assisting the committee or the board of the Board of Directors of the federation, and I came there after I was retired. I had been retired from my work at the Dutch Right to Die Society, NVVE as the name is, and in my retirement, I'm not used to sitting still, doing nothing, and I'm very interested in the whole movement, not only in the Netherlands but also worldwide. When I was working at the NVVE, I was started work there about five days after the health minister brought her bill, an euthanasia bill in the Parliament, so I have been involved in all the debates actually right from the beginning in the parliamentary debates, and as Chief Executive Officer of the NVVE, I've been for eight, nine years involved in the practical situation after the bill was approved in the Parliament, and now we have our official euthanasia law since 2002, and having a law is not the end of ... Well, it is the end of a process, but it's the beginning of a new process, to get people to accustomed to the fact that we have a law where it is legal for a doctor to assist in euthanasia, and aid in dying as it is called today, and we have to see the patients get what they want and that the law is used as it should be. And, of course, it's interesting how I became to be the executive officer because my original profession is a family medicine, so I have been working as a family doctor in the eastern part of the country, and I know from the beginning, I always have been very interested in ... Well, let's say, not the patient with colds, or a little complaints or things like that, but especially the situations in which patients needed guidance, whatever they need guidance in, so I have been delivering babies on the one side of the life, and I also became involved in the end of life guidance, where automatically, in that period, first careful questions came from patients especially patients working in the healthcare field, about my position regarding euthanasia as it was known, but as it was illegal at that moment. And, of course, I had never got training on what euthanasia was, how you do it, or what kind of medication you use, so it's using your experience and trying to sort of help people die in a peaceful and dignified way, and of course having been given this kind of help, I have never reported it, because if I had reported it, I would have been persecuted and probably get before the courts, and I didn't want to do that- Dr. Bob: Of course not. Dr. Rob Jonquière: No, and my patients didn't want to have me in front of courts. They asked me to help. They said not if you're getting trouble, and of course, in the situations I'm talking about, it has been patients with terminal cancer situations, who actually were really at the end of their lives, suffering from their cancer situations, although we have been treating with all kinds of care and medication and help we could. Dr. Bob: So, I want to touch on that, I want to clarify a bit for anybody who would like that, this was occurring when you were a practicing family doctor. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yes, the '70s, '80s. Dr. Bob: Okay, and you were doing the whole full spectrum of caring for people from birth to death, and you recognized that there were people who were suffering, and you obviously philosophically felt comfortable with providing that support, even though it was not legal. So, first of all, the statute of limitations, I'm assuming the statute of limitations, for that type of activity, is past so that you can speak freely about it- Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yes. Dr. Bob: About your experiences back then. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Well, I can, and I mean, even you can say that is kind of a Dutch culture. I mean, at that moment, I could not go to the authorities and say, listen, I've terminated a life of a patient because she was suffering terribly, so I just said, in my records, that she died because of her cancer, which was actually the case. I only speed up the dying process a little bit. Dr. Bob: Which is the same as the aid of dying laws here in the United States, where the patients are dying. Anyone who is eligible for physician aid in dying is dying. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Certainly. That is now, and of course, in the Netherlands, it is now absolutely normal practice in terminal cancer situations. People are in such a situation, and don't want to go to the real end of the suffering can ask for it, and will get euthanasia without any problem. Dr. Bob: Okay, so let's go back. So you ended your clinical practice. What drove you at that point to stop practicing in the way that you were in that practice? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Well, you know, the main reason is I have always been interested to not only do my work as a family doctor, but I always liked to work in organization, to support, to develop things, to do on education, or research, or whatever, so I did many things besides my practice, and actually that became a little bit too much for a work situation, and then I got the opportunity to become the head of the vocational training program for family doctors, which actually meant that I could go to work on a university. I had the opportunity to be involved in research, in education, in organization, and it was still inside the field of the job and the kind of work I liked, which is family medicine. So, not specifically my work in the field of end of life, just a change of work from being a, let's say a medical practitioner into a person on university working on a higher level. Dr. Bob: Got it, and through that period, were you still working in the end of life arena, helping patients at end of life? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Not intentionally. Not as a kind of idea. There were other things that I was focusing on. You can say that I developed, in that period, the vocational training scheme for nursing home physicians, which is a little bit that way, and whenever in the curriculum of the vocational training, the topic was end of life or palliative care, although they didn't give it that name at that moment, but end of life care, guiding dying people, yes, of course, I was interested in that because it touched a part of my practical work. Dr. Bob: Wonderful. And, then additional sort of responsibilities and opportunities, and then eventually found yourself really diving fully into the Right to Die organization, is that right? Dr. Rob Jonquière: That was also, actually, accidentally. I was looking for ... I don't know whether you know the issue of middle management. Working at a university, I was all the time in a middle management position, and I wanted to take one step further at being, having the end responsibility of something, and then I was invited, actually, to applicate for the job of the chief executive officer of the Dutch Right to Die Society, and of course, the main question they asked me, what is your opinion on end of life and euthanasia, because they were, at that moment, advocating. It's a large advocacy group for euthanasia in the Netherlands, and I could say, I'm in favor of it. I did practice the issue, and I thought it, indeed, should be legalized because I practiced when it was not legal, and I knew what difficult situation that was, doing something, which is very emotional but being allowed to officially talk about it. So that was is where I applicated for a job of the Dutch Right to Die Society, and from that moment I was indeed more than 100% into end of life, euthanasia, medical aid to dying, and all of the developments. Dr. Bob: And, you were there, you mentioned, that euthanasia has been legal since 2002. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Since 2002, yes. Dr. Bob: This was all happening right at the beginning of your tenure there. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yeah. Dr. Bob: Well, fantastic. Can you describe for people who are listening what the different terms refer to? Dr. Rob Jonquière: The official translation of euthanasia is a good death, but in the Netherlands, we have since the middle '80s, the commission has looked into, and we have, in the Netherlands, defined euthanasia as the intentional termination of life on request of the person who is going to die. So it means that you do something, and the only aim of your action is that the patient is going die, and you only do that if the patient asks for it. So, if there is no request, you cannot practice euthanasia. You cannot practice euthanasia by giving medication, which, as a side effect, will terminate life of someone. Next, to euthanasia, which is an action by giving an injection, we have what we call assisted suicide. I know there is a lot of problems with the term suicide in the world, but we call it assisted suicide. There, as a doctor, you prescribe the medication, which causes death of the patient, but the patient takes the medication him or herself and legally- Dr. Bob: And, is that happening? Is that happening in the Netherlands as well, or has that pretty much gone by the wayside because of euthanasia being legal? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Well, the funny thing is that I've been speaking with my doctors of course, after the legalization, and all those doctors I spoke to said, well, I always want the patient to take the medication himself, so practice physician assisted suicide, still if we look at the figures in the Netherlands, we are lucky in the Netherlands that there is a very quality research and surveys going on what is happening, and there you see that between 85% and 90% or even more of the actions at the end of life is euthanasia, and only 5% is assisted suicide. So, officially, euthanasia is the main, so that's the reason why when we discuss the issue, we always talk only about euthanasia, but assisted suicide is the same, and you see that now some of the patients rather want to do it themselves. Some of the doctors, indeed, say if you want to die, you have to do something about it yourself, and I'm only prepared to give you the medication as you do in California. Dr. Bob: Okay. Is the medication being administered in the euthanasia cases, is that regulated? Is there a specific medication that everyone has access to? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Well, yes, it is officially one of an anesthesiologist, Pieter Admiraal, who you could call the inventor of the euthanasia medication, which is actually you bring the patient in a real deep coma, mostly by injecting barbiturates, an overdose of barbiturates, and after you have checked that patient really is in coma, and doesn't feel anything at all, you give again an overdose of a muscle relaxant, the medication anesthesiologist use when the patient is operated on. Dr. Bob: Okay. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yeah, and that is now more or less a kind of protocol, and even if you look at our laws at this moment, it says, if you do it, you have to do it the proper way, which is you have to do it according to the medical standard, which is using that protocol, and the assisted suicide is just barbiturate, nine grams or 10 grams or so in a cloud of water. Dr. Bob: That's the same medication being used here, for the most part, the Seconal. Are there specific physicians who are trained in this, or what's that process like? How does a physician get certified or be allowed to do this? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yeah, in the Netherlands and the Dutch law doesn't say that it has to be a certification. You have to be a doctor. That's the only thing you have to be. You have to follow the criteria of the law. The only certificate doctors are a group of second opinion doctors. Their obligation is, one of the criteria is that you have to consult a second independent doctor about case before you can perform the euthanasia, and these doctors are trained. Yes, of course, about the practicalities, about legal issues, but mainly about what kind of problems there are, and how to give a consultation to a colleague, if they are asked for it, but every doctor can actually practice euthanasia. Dr. Bob: Okay, like in California with the aid in dying, and the end of life option, it just requires a medical license, and the hope then is the physicians who are participating are becoming familiar, are becoming experts on their own. That's what we would hope. Dr. Rob Jonquière: I think that's what's happening. I mean, if you see in the Netherlands, we have of course what is it, 13, 14,000 family doctors, 85% of euthanasia is performed by family doctors, and you see of those family doctors, some 30%, 40% do it more regularly, which is still not more than two or three times a year in the average. So, they get used to how to do it, and there are manuals. We have papers or documents they can consult, and of course, that is where the second independent doctor can help. That doctor is trained. When that doctor comes, they can say, well, everything is okay, but, these and these things are not yet okay, and then the doctor can change that. We see more or less now, that sometimes, especially younger doctors don't go alone if they have to do it, but take an older colleague with them, so train themselves. Dr. Bob: Sure, we have mentors to help guide them. Is there opposition? Dr. Rob Jonquière: And, of course, that is also important of having a law. They are legally allowed to discuss their case. They can openly talk about, instead of having the fear that someone is listening and saying, hey, you have done something illegal and go to the police. Dr. Bob: Is there opposition in the Netherlands that is of significance? DrRob Jonquiere: There is. I don't think it is of significance. The main opposition is from the Orthodox-Protestant churches, and of course, we have the official opposition from the Catholic Church, the higher institutions. We see lower ... What do you call it? Clergy. Dr. Bob: Clergy, mm-hmm (affirmative). Dr. Rob Jonquière: Clergy working with family doctors, and then guiding their dying patients as well, but officially, the Church is against it, and practically we see 10% to 12% of doctors, mostly on religious situations, are not doing it principally, and then you have some 30%, 40% of doctors who are afraid, well, you know, don't know what to do, how to do, and don't want to go into that field. Dr. Bob: They just don't want to stretch themselves in that way. They don't feel comfortable for whatever reason. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yeah. Dr. Bob: Well, that's fascinating. I that there's a lot of people around the world, and a lot of people in the United States that are clearly in favor of laws that are more favorable towards helping people having a peaceful end of life, you know, I hear so often when I'm taking care of people who are struggling with end of life challenges that we take better care of our animals than we do of our people here in this country, and of course, they are referring to the ease of which we can have animals euthanized but not allowing humans to have their suffering end that way. Dr. Rob Jonquière: What I have heard from one of my opponents once, as well, that's why there is a difference between a dog and a man, a human. Dr. Bob: Easy to throw that out, but just sort of deflect the conversation. So I appreciate ... I know that a lot of people will be very interested in just hearing more of the specifics of what is happening in the Netherlands. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Well, you know, the funny thing is, Bob, if you look at the attitudes in the population, yes, of course, maybe in the Netherlands it is a little bit higher than in other countries, but what I see in my function as executive officer of the World Federation now is that in practically all countries, even in what is seen as Catholic countries, you see a population of over 60% to 70% who are in favor of it. So, it is not the population which is a problem, it is the politician, and the politicians who many times have, of course, have broader responsibilities. You see in some countries, and I think in the United States certainly, you see more influence from the churches on politicians because they are dependent on that kind of situations, and that is the situation we don't know in the Netherlands, and in some other countries in Europe as well. Dr. Bob: The ability to influence politicians that way? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yeah. Dr. Bob: With financial incentives and other types of influence. That is a problem ... and I know it is not unique to the United States, but it is especially problematic those influences, and in many cases, it comes down to fear and greed and how do you feel that the pharmaceutical industry or the insurance industry, the financial industry, how do you feel that they factor into this conversation? Dr. Rob Jonquière: As far as I know in the Netherlands, it's practically has no influence at all. That's of course because our system is based that if, as a doctor, you prescribe your medication, and the medication is known and accepted, it's being paid out of the insurance money, so what I hear from the States, where you pay, what is it, $3.5 thousand for a shot of Seconal, I don't know what it costs here, but maybe not more than 80, 90, or 100 euro which is paid by the insurance. So, there is no reason for patients not to have euthanasia because it is too expensive. Dr. Bob: Yeah, and that's in the Netherlands. I'm kind of trying to get the sense of the impact in the countries that don't have, you know, a national health service that covers the cost of care, and I'm sure there is some- Dr. Rob Jonquière: Then, it's what you see in the States, where actually, again, it is something which can only be done by patients who have the money for the medication. Dr. Bob: Well, can you give a sense of where you think things are heading worldwide? What's your prediction? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Well, I see the last years, there are changes going on. You see gradual changes, if you look at the United States, of course, you see more and more states getting over to laws, and unfortunately, there are impediments of financial reasons, but we see a change happening. I don't hope, actually, your new president will change something in the federal situation, because your Supreme Court is now more conservative, so if it comes to federal Supreme Court things, then you'll have some problems, but I see changing in the States, of course, changing Canada has an important push into America, I think. I see changes in Australia since Victoria has now a bill which will be in effect in 2019, I think, in June, and think that Victoria having passed a bill will mean the other states will also pass bills. They have been trying to do that, so there you see a gradual change and the only thing is I have no idea about Africa, which is, of course, a large continent, except South Africa, but that is practically not what I would call an African continental nation, but there is no movement at all in those countries as far as I know. And, in South America, we see Columbia having a law, and I know that countries like Ecuador or Chile who have even, in these kinds of laws, are more progressive than the Netherlands sometimes. So, I could imagine that maybe if they want that they would be able to change laws in this direction sooner. Dr. Bob: Well, it does seem like we're in general moving in that direction- Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yes, I think so. Dr. Bob: Many states have bills that are being discussed, and when you refer to Australia, I'm interested in that. I just read a book called Dying, which was a fascinating account of a woman dying of metastatic melanoma, who was living in Australia, and had actually obtained medication through an online source, but was very reluctant to utilize it or let anyone know she had it because without there being a law in Australia, anybody who had knowledge of this, or who supported her, would potentially be susceptible to being prosecuted for aiding in a suicide. The law in Victoria that you were referring to is that euthanasia or- Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yes, it is euthanasia. Dr. Bob: It is euthanasia. Dr. Rob Jonquière: And, the law is called Medical Aid In Dying, so euthanasia is a possibility, so where doctors actively apply medication and also assisted or giving medication which they take themselves, so they really have a law in the direction of euthanasia. The only thing there is, and that is what you see, is that because they wanted to take the wind out of the sails of the opposition, they brought in a huge number of criteria and safeguards. So, even I have seen somewhere they said this law is the most safeguarded law in the world. You have to comply, what is it, about 68 or 72 safeguards, so it is very complicated, and fortunately, what I see for example is that more and more, just because they are in their fight against opponents, people say you must be ill. It must be a terminal illness. We see in the Netherlands, many people are maybe not terminal because we have what's terminal, I mean, everybody is going to die, so in a way, we are all terminal. So, terminal illness is involved. There's expectation that you have to die within a certain amount of months, so it takes away the whole idea that it is, and that's what I think is important. It has to go about the suffering of the patient. Dr. Bob: And, that's similar to our law here in California. There is that requirement that there is a six months prognosis, which is sometimes difficult to ascertain. Dr. Rob Jonquière: You know, probably like me that the worst issue for the doctor is to say how long you're going to live. Dr. Bob: We're not good at it. Dr. Rob Jonquière: And, you also know patients who you say, you won't live a month, and they're still alive after 10 years, and the other way around. Dr. Bob: So, in the Netherlands, with the euthanasia law, there is not a requirement for the person to have a terminal illness, is that correct? Dr. Rob Jonquière: No. The requirement is that you ask for it, and you have welcomed the request, and you have a well-considered request, and the request must be voluntary. You must be suffering, and the suffering must be unbearable and hopeless, and I always say that is a major issue in our law, the unbearability of suffering is only the patient can say, this is for me unbearable, and the hopelessness is reason for the doctor to say, I cannot make your suffering bearable, so in that way, it is hopeless. And, if you together say, you're suffering is unbearable and hopeless, then you have fulfilled the criteria in that field, and then you have your second independent doctor. You must have no real alternatives et cetera, et cetera. Dr. Bob: And, that really just gives the ... it gives the responsibility back to the patient. It allows them to determine what is bearable or unbearable for them. Dr. Rob Jonquière: For that issue, of course, in the Netherlands, our population, our members of the Right to Die Society are not very happy about the law, because as they say, it is a doctor's law. The law protects doctors against prosecution if they comply with the request for euthanasia, and the patients say, okay, I have to ask for it. That's my responsibility. Okay, I have to tell the doctor it is unbearable, but I'm dependent of a doctor who says, yes, I will do it. And, many people, and certainly, I think that is a kind of why you can't call it progress in our culture, say, if I say have ... my life finished. I'm suffering too much. I want to end my life. I have the right to have my life ended. There the problem always is that if you want to end your life well, and dignified, and humanely, you have the possibility of having the right medication, or pharmaceuticals, and the only way to have the right one is to go to your doctor and ask a prescription. Dr. Bob: So, it's still not perfect, at least according to the eyes of the people, but it's- Dr. Rob Jonquière: It's not perfect if you look at autonomy, things like that, and that is the kind of development I see at this moment in the Netherlands going on, where organizations are trying to find out, and maybe you know Phillip Nitschke from Australia. They're trying to find stuff, well you can't call it medication, but organics, or bills, or substances which can end your life in a humane, quick way, which you get outside the help of a doctor. You can do it yourself. I don't know whether that's good. That's my personal ... I hesitate. Dr. Bob: That opens an entirely different can of worms, and that could be another conversation. Do you have a sense of how many people in the Netherlands make a request, but are not found to qualify according to the physicians who are they are requesting it of? Dr. Rob Jonquière: It is more or less, already for years, we see that about 10 to 12,000 requests every year, a third of them are refused for all sorts of reasons because the request is not well-considered because doctor sees there is no real suffering, or there are alternatives. A third is honored the requests, so between three and four and it's getting a little bit more thousand cases every year died by euthanasia, and then the other third, there the patient dies sometimes before the actually the whole process is started, because the nature of thing is, which we didn't speak about, I think one of the things when I talked to my patients, and I told them, if they really thought their suffering was unbearable, and I could do something more, and they asked, then, in the end, I would really help them. Then I saw, that actually they lived much longer in a rather good quality of life, and died in a natural way, just because they knew they were going be helped if it got really bad. Dr. Bob: Yeah, I had that experience where just the knowledge that the patients have this option available improves their quality of life from the moment I had that first conversation. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yeah, that maybe is a major positive effect of having a law. Dr. Bob: Yeah. It's one of them, for sure. Do you know the statistics, I'm assuming that you do, but if you don't that's understandable, of what percentage of deaths that have occurred in the Netherland occur as a result of euthanasia? Dr. Rob Jonquière: The latest report ... you must know that every five years, we do a large survey asking doctors about their actions at the end of life, and we have such large and solid responses on it that you can extrapolate your whole population, so you see that the last time, it was a little more than 3%, and I think in the last year, when we had the report from the committees, it was practically 4% of all deaths cases in the Netherlands. Dr. Bob: Okay. Does that seem low to you? It seems a little low to me, for some reason. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yes. Well, it is low, as many people think. Sometimes, if you don't know the numbers, they give you the idea that in the Netherlands, when you walk in the street, and you look a bit ill, you are killed by euthanasia. That is not happening at all, and I would say it is only 4%. We see a gradual increase in the numbers and in the percentage. I think it is too early yet to see whether that is going be a steady phase, or whether we're still growing, growing further, but certainly, it is not as many, especially opponents suggested, as soon as you legalize, you open the door to thousands of- Dr. Bob: The floodgates come in, and people are knocking down the doors looking to be euthanized. Dr. Rob Jonquière: But, of course, I realized when I was working with the Dutch Society that since we are a rather small country, so our total death cases are about 140,000 every year if you talk about 4 percent, you talk about 6,000 euthanasia cases every year. If you live in a country like the States, where you have millions more, probably a higher death number, and then you talk about only 4%, you're talking about a large, larger numbers which are, if you look at what papers or communications say about it, it is, of course, more impressive than when we started to talk. We had 2,000 cases every year, which you can say, oh it's only 2,000. Dr. Bob: Well, this has been really educational, and I think fascinating, and I know many of the listeners will appreciate what you shared, now you're speaking around the world. You go to the Federation meetings, and is their information or issues that you feel would be important to bring out that I didn't have a chance to ask about? Is there anything that you think that you hear questions over and over again that you feel would be valuable? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Oh, I think what we addressed today is more or less what is generally felt. It's of course important that if you talk, if you're interested in the issue that you should orient yourself on the right arguments and don't listen too much to the opponents, because many times, I see opponents misusing ... for example, the numbers we produce in the Netherlands, just to give you a small example, we had in '85 or '90, the first large survey and it appeared at that moment that a thousand times every year, a doctor terminates the life of a patient without having a request from the patient. Of course, everybody said that is wrong. I mean, you only do it if there's a request. If you don't do it on request, you're actually committing a murder. We see that number getting down to the last time, I think it was about 100 cases every year, and even there, we know those 100 cases were no murders but were specific situations, for example, very small children who were suffering enormously where doctors terminated life or terminated suffering actually, and officially, performing euthanasia without request, because a small child cannot ask it, so it is a very small number, and even that small number can be explained from humane actions by doctors, and still our opponents tell that in the Netherlands, they kill a thousand patients without request, and that kind of messages, I see everywhere in the world getting around, and getting first at patients or people who are interested in the issue. So, one of the things I mostly do when I speak around the world is explaining our situation in the Netherlands, and say, it is different from what you hear from the papers because they use those wrong figures. Dr. Bob: Well, that's really helpful, and I think it is important to caution people to be careful about the information that you are letting and- Dr. Rob Jonquière: Especially nowadays, don't take in fake news. Dr. Bob: Yeah. And if people want to get more information or learn more about you and the Federation, the website is www.worldrtd.net. Right? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yes. That's right, and there you can get every information. You can get general information of what's happening around the world, and of course, you can find the addresses of the 52 national societies with emails and with website addresses, so from there on, you can click wherever you want to go.
Alive Inside" is a wonderful film and movement that awakens the Alzheimer's mind and connects generations, comforting elders and rescuing youth. The film's Director, Michael Rossato-Bennett, shares how it all began. IntegratedMDCare.com " Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Contact Alive Inside website Alive Inside Facebook Page Transcript Dr. Bob: Today's guest is Michael Rossato-Bennett-Bennett, the director of the film, Alive Inside, and the founder and executive director of the Alive Inside Foundation. Alive Inside is a phenomenal film, and I highly recommend you find a way to watch it. The Alive Inside Foundation is dedicated to healing loneliness and disconnection in all of our lives, but especially in the lives of the very young and the very old who are living with dementia. They partner with communities to connect the generations and shift our relationship with life, aging and growing up. The Foundation seeks to end loneliness using empathy, music, life story, and film. This interview with Michael is an intimate exploration into the mind and heart of a man who seems to have stumbled upon his purpose and has been inspired to create in a much more expansive way since doing so. I hope you enjoy it. So, Michael, your life has changed pretty significantly in the last several years. From what I can gather, what started as a project that you couldn't really foresee a whole lot coming out of, to what has been created in your life now and looks amazing. What's it like? Tell me the journey a little bit. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Well, like every life, probably the most important things are your failures. Those are what you learn from, like your woundings, your emptiness, your hungers. These are the things that actually fuel you. When nothing else makes sense, I'm deeply interested in what makes sense when nothing else makes sense, and I think that's a very apt conversation to have in this time because I'm sure I'm not alone. I think if everyone were honest, they would just say right now, "What the heck is going on?" Dr. Bob: How did we get here? Michael Rossato-Bennett: How did we get here? How do we tell our children your president doesn't tell the truth all the time? How do we say your government isn't really trying to protect you? We're confused. I mean I am, and I have been many times in my life. I'm going to get a little philosophical here, but I think anyone living in a predatory culture that doesn't quite know that they're living in a predatory culture, has a feeling of disquiet and confusion, and like all of us who are trying to do something in the world, our efforts are constantly called into question. What am I doing? Am I helping create a just world? Am I helping create a world where life is recognizing and aiding life, or am I deeply investing in a system that is reducing the quality of life, literally for the planet at this time? I think every one of our occupations, from farmer to doctor, has to wrestle with these questions right now, what is my place in this world that we've created, and, unfortunately, we don't get to remove ourselves from it I don't think. Dr. Bob: It's interesting. As you're talking about this, and I don't know if you have children or not, but as you're talking about this, I'm flashing on my 11-year-old son, who is right at the verge ... If I asked him what does it feel like to live in a predatory world, I think he would know enough about what I'm asking to form an opinion and connect with it. But I, also, feel like he's still living in this other world where he can slip back into this sense of comfort and not allow that to influence his day to day existence. Michael Rossato-Bennett: I mean this is at the core of everything I'm working on, and it's simply the recognition of the idea that we actually do mature, that there is actually an arc to our lives. When I was 21, I was competing my ass off to win the steak knives at my job for Cool Vent Aluminum telephone salesmen. I wanted to be the best Cool Vent Aluminum salesman because the sales manager told me that I was nothing if I couldn't book these appointments for his salesmen to sell this poor, older people aluminum siding and new windows. Dr. Bob: And you believed that? You believed that story. Michael Rossato-Bennett: I believed it. Dr. Bob: Yeah, you did. Michael Rossato-Bennett: I believed it, and really, honestly at that point, all I wanted to do was be good, be recognized, to succeed, to have some validation, and honestly, I didn't think that the people who were in authority, that the people who were older than I was, I didn't think that they didn't know what they were doing. I thought they knew what they were doing. But your 11-year-old son, he's awakening in a world where it's obvious that we don't know what's going on, that something is happening, and it's amazing what's happening. I mean basically what's happening is we're going through a major psychic, intellectual, spiritual, existential definition of what it means to be human, and what it means to be human together, and ideas that we've had for thousands of years are no longer functional in the face of these incredible tools that we've created in the last 20 or 30 years. The computer has just turned human culture on its head, and we are not ready for it. Dr. Bob: Right. Michael Rossato-Bennett: And we're innocents, and I think in a hundred years we'll look back and this and go ... Just like slavery. At one point, slavery seemed to be a pretty good business model. We try not to do that anymore, at least in a recognizable form. But in a non-recognizable form, we haven't given up that business model, and that's what we're dealing with. I mean you're a doctor, and I work in healthcare to some degree as well, and Marshall McLuhan is a great media thinker, a thinker about media, and he said years and ... Maybe 60 years ago or 50 years ago, he said, "The medium is the message," and I never understood what that meant, but I understand what that means now, that basically, the structures that we create determine the outcomes, no matter who is in them, or no matter what the outcomes are. When you have a lot of people making money on petroleum, you get plastic in the ocean. It doesn't matter what people do. In 50 years, we won't be relying on petroleum. We won't have the pressure to create as much plastic, and maybe we can solve that problem. Dr. Bob: Well, so fascinating. Great perspective. Love it. Not exactly where I was anticipating the conversation was going to go, but I love it, and I want to hear ... So you take that. I'm sure that your awareness is continuing to mature, to evolve, and it's influenced by and influencing what you are doing day to day to improve the lives of the human beings that you're concerned about, as we both are. What's happening in your life? I want to know what you're doing. What's the Foundation doing? How are you right now serving in a way that is trying to achieve the most benefit for humankind? Michael Rossato-Bennett: Well, I mean that's a big thing to say. Dr. Bob: I know. Because it's happening. What you're doing is serving humankind in a positive way. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Right, right. I'm not young. I'm not a child anymore, and you get to a certain point in your life, and you ask yourself, "Okay. What can I do to help other people," because helping yourself is kind of boring after a while. It just becomes boring. So you want to expand your relationships with other people, and it's interesting. Dr. Bob: I lost you for a second there. You said interesting, and then I lost you. Michael Rossato-Bennett: I was relating to these thoughts. Okay. Sorry. All of my thinking comes out of working with these elders with dementia and meeting them. You're right when you say my life has transformed. I mean I walked into my first nursing home, and I wanted to run because I'd had really some very traumatic experiences in hospitals when I was a child. They put that ether on my face. I don't think they do that anymore, and I struggled and screamed, and yelled, and fought. They finally just gave me shots in my butt. But that smell of health care, of the hospital, I swore I would never, ever step inside a hospital or a healthcare facility, place forever. I promised myself I would never, ever do that. Then here I am. I had been hired to make a website for a guy who was bringing iPods into nursing homes, and he thought that it would be a good, new thing to do, and so I did it. There I was sitting in front of a man, Henry. He was the first one that I really saw the power of music to wake the hidden vitality of a mind, a mind that had lost its capacity to connect with itself and with others. I didn't want to be there. It was very sad for me to see this human being, this shell, if you will, of a human being, who didn't seem to be able to come out of that shell. Then we gave him ... Millions of people have seen this clip. Actually, over 100 million people have seen this clip. Dr. Bob: Really. That's where it's at, at this point. Incredible. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Well, it was actually one of the earlier clips to go viral on Facebook. So it was still back when Facebook was becoming before they put all these clamps and started monetizing everyone's life. It was back when they were giving it away so that people would join, and so it's a completely different animal now, and that's what we're discovering right now, and a very dangerous animal as well. But anyway, so here's Henry, and we give him some Cab Calloway, and I get to experience a human being awakening. This guy, he starts moving, and his eyes light up, and he starts singing. He starts making poetry. When I took the music away, I thought he would turn off like a ragdoll. Dr. Bob: Like a light switch going off. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Yeah. Like the electricity was going off. But, no, there was this residual aliveness and connection, and he talked to me, and he was so beautiful. The whole world saw this. I mean I went to bed that night and my son ... That I posted it. No, I didn't post it. I put it on my friend, Dan Cohen's website, and some kid found it and started spreading it in the Reddit community. I don't know if you know what Reddit is. Dr. Bob: I'm a little bit familiar with it, yeah. Michael Rossato-Bennett: It's a community of young people on the internet, and my son is in that community, and he saw ... He came into my room. He said, "Dad, they're talking about your film on Reddit," and I was like, "Really," and he goes, "Yeah. It's gone from 300 views to 400 views," and I was like, "Oh, my God. That's amazing." Oh, my God, and then we went to bed. We woke up the next morning, and it was at 180,000 views. On the next day, like a million views. It just kept going. But the amazing thing was, for me, I mean I thought we'd discovered the cure for Alzheimer's Disease. I was like, oh, all you got to do is give them music, and it makes their Alzheimer's go away. Then there's, of course, a sad realization that, no, you're just waking up some very deep pathways that are actually spared. They're pathways that are very deep in this elemental brain. Not in the forebrain, which is really the core of I think what I'm working with right now, and that is that when you don't know where to go, sometimes the deepest parts of ourselves hold profound and unexplored wisdom, and I constantly go to those deepest places, like music. Music, by now, it's part of our DNA. It's literally been adapted to our DNA. I mean a child, an infant, a human infant will respond to a beat and other primates won't in the same way. Yes. Dr. Bob: I watched the film a couple times, Alive Inside. I've watched it a couple times. I just watched it again last night. I was, again, just blown away by the little toddler who was conducting. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Oh, my God. Dr. Bob: The natural instinct in him, and he's a little performer. But I agree, you can see it in almost every child from the time that they're able to interact with the world, that they respond to music, and they've been responding to it since they were in utero. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Yeah. Dr. Bob: And that never goes away, unless you lose your hearing. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Which is another enormous problem. About half of the people who staff thinks have dementia, they probably have a little bit, but more, they have hearing problems. It's an enormous problem in elder care. So what are we doing now? At first, I was like, "Oh, my God, let's get everybody who has dementia their music, and let's make that happen." In some ways, that's happening. Michael Rossato-Bennett: It's hard to realize what we don't know, right, or what we didn't know. When I was making Alive Inside, we had so much trouble getting people to try this, to give these elders their music, and it was really a struggle because it was a new idea. But then the hundredth monkey syndrome kicked in a couple of years ago, and now this idea has literally spread like wildfire across the world, and to such a degree that I think ... I was joking with a friend way back then. I said what's going to happen is some day I'm going to say I made this movie about how you can play music for people that's their music, that gives them an emotional reaction, and if they have Alzheimer's it will awaken parts of their brain that have been forgotten, and I said in five years, I have this feeling that people will go why did you make a movie about that? Everyone knows that. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Right, what's so different. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Everybody knows that. We know that, and that's where we are. Everyone in the world knows this now. I mean I had some part to play with it, but it's that hundredth monkey thing. When something is important, and you have a disease like Alzheimer's where there is no cure, and if you have something that can help, it's going to spread like wildfire, and I think that's what's happened. Dr. Bob: Well, of course, it's very helpful for people who have Alzheimer's to try to awaken that and to bring them a sense of joy and connection, but it's, also, incredibly beneficial for people without Alzheimer's, who are just lonely, right? They're just the people throughout the nation, the world, who are isolated or limited in their own homes, or in assisted living communities, or in nursing homes. The ability to give somebody, to connect them with the music that has been meaningful for them at various points of their life, brings joy, brings comfort, brings connection. There's no way to understate the impact. So understanding that I'm curious ... I'm in San Diego. I have a concierge practice, and I take care of people who are in their homes who are dealing with end-of-life issues. They have dementia. They have cancer. They have heart disease. It's a small practice. It's like a concierge practice for people with complex illnesses and who are approaching the end of their life. As part of that, we have integrated therapies, and I have a couple of music therapists who go out. They're angels. They connect with the patients, and we see them flower. We see them blossom. Some of our patients, with these therapies, music, massage, acupuncture, reiki, they go from being bedbound, and miserable, and wanting to die, to get re-engaged with life and getting- Michael Rossato-Bennett: And it makes sense. Dr. Bob: And it makes sense, total, and I go into nursing homes, and I'll see people there, and we just created a foundation. We just got the 501c3 determination from the IRS, so we're ready to make this thing happen. How do we take advantage of what you have created to implement and leverage that in San Diego? Let's talk about how this is actually happening on the ground. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Okay. Well, first of all, you've opened up some really big cans of worms here. Dr. Bob: I have a knack for doing that. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Most of the people who have dementia and Alzheimer's, they are not in institutions. They live at home, and we have a culture that defines people as valuable to the degree that they're productive, and it's deeply ingrained in us. It's ingrained in our religion, and our morality, and our laws, even to the point where we've created lots of meaningless work, just because people want to be working, and the dark side of that, not the meaningless work, but this idea that we have no value unless we're productive, is the elders that you're finding. What is their productivity when they're just sitting? They can see their death, and they probably feel they're not contributing. As a matter of fact, they might even feel that they're a burden, which is a horrible thing for a human being to feel. One of the things that I've been so intrigued about, about people with Alzheimer's, is they forget so much, but it's strange what they don't forget. They don't forget what they used to be. They don't forget that they're having trouble communicating, and they used to be able to communicate, or at least it seems like that to me. You opened up another can of worms, which is loneliness. The UK just appointed a minister of loneliness. 40% of Americans report problems with feeling lonely. We're discovering the dark side of social media, which is this capacity that it has to make people judge themselves, their real life against the sort of phony life that's presented one snapshot at a time and edited and Photoshopped. People feel this kind of not being good enough, and when you feel not good enough, you feel separate, and when you feel separate, you feel alone, and that is one of the greatest pains a human being can ever feel, and that's really ... I had a very hard time growing up and a lot of isolation, and I shut myself down in many ways, and that's why when I saw this older man, Henry, wake up, I was like, "Oh, my goodness. Oh, my God, we can wake up. We can be awakened," and that's what you've described with your music therapists go in, and these people are like, "Oh, wow, yes. There are rhythms of life that I can share with you, and we can sing, and we can do music, and it can even go back into my memory, and oh, I have these stories I could tell you." I decided that the place that I wanted to play with was trying to reduce pain. Like you, as a doctor, you want to reduce- You want to reduce the pain and the struggle, and one of the greatest struggles that I see is loneliness and disconnection. I feel like our culture ... There are things we all need to survive, and to live, and to thrive, and sometimes commercial society says, "All right. You want those things; you got to pay for them." So it puts walls between what we want and what there is, and that's not really the way life works. If you swim in the ocean and you grab a fish, it's not like you paid for it. Well, you swam for it. That's for sure. Or you pluck a pear from a tree. It's not like you grew that tree. I'm not sure that this sort of way we are creating safety for ourselves is working, and I think it's falling apart in many ways, and so, again, I go to the very deepest place. So I developed these headphones that you could give to somebody with dementia, and it has a little hole in it, and you can put their music in it, and you can plug your headphones into their headphones, and so you can listen together, and your eyes can meet, and you can be in the music together, and I thought that was beautiful. Then I made an app so that anyone could sit with another person and try and figure out what is that deep music that's inside the soul of another person. So you can do that. But the key thing I feel is that what I've learned. If you watch Alive Inside, you see all these people awakening. But what you don't see is me on the other side of the camera going, "Oh, tell me that story. Oh, my God, you're so beautiful. Oh, yes, I want to know more and tell me. Flower. Let me see you flower." We are creatures that are called into becoming. You take a child, and you just put them in a room, and you leave them there for 14 years, you're not going to have a great kid, but if you go in there every day and you teach them how to be human, and you teach them the rules of being human, you bond with other people, you connect to them, you be kind to them, you look in their eyes, you learn to feel what comes out of another person's eyes, and you learn to give to another person through your eyes. I mean the eyes is the only organ that goes both ways. There are both receptors and apparently ... I was reading the other day ... I wish I could quote it better. But apparently, there's something that comes out of the eyes. That's why we call the eyes the windows of the soul. You're a doctor. Dr. Bob: I'm not sure what emanates from the eyes, but it kind of feels like when you're in somebody's gaze, when you're looking deep into their eyes, that there's something either reflecting back or coming out of it for sure. Michael Rossato-Bennett: At the very least, there's expression. At the very least, there are tears. Something is coming out, even if it isn't a ray. But that's the amazing thing that we're understanding now, and this goes back to the illusion of loneliness. We've created the structure where you can be lonely, where you can be a separate entity that doesn't connect with other entities, and the terrible thing is that's engineered. The truth is that we are not separate. We're talking over Skype, and my ideas are affecting your brain, and your ideas are affecting me. But if we were sitting in the same room for the amount of time that we've been sitting, your cells would be in my body, and my cells would be in yours. Every cell in your body I think changes every seven years, and the building blocks of you have been white people, and black people, and brown people, and hippos, and dogs, and ducks, and dinosaurs, and fish. I was reading this amazing book about old growth forests, like dirt. There's no such thing as dirt. There are rocks, and there's whatever, but every single piece of nutrition that has ever passed through your lips only has nutrition because vegetable matter has gone through the butt of a bug. Dirt is bug pooh, and without bug pooh, there is no nutrition in anything that grows. So we're not special. We are part of everything, and we've just created this system that ends up taking our children and putting them in these institutions, and telling them to stay there for 20 years and to compete for a few little remaining spots at some big colleges. As children, we're forgetting how to be children. And we have our elders, and, oh, my God, have we abandoned them. Oh, you're worthless. You just go sit in the little room over there. I'm sorry. Now you got a little emotion running in me, and so I said let's bring these two groups together. Let's bring the very old and the very young together, and what you do when you do that, it's like a magnet. These groups are meant to be together, and they're engineered apart. So basically a lot of people have seen Alive Inside, and they call me, and they say, "Hey, let's do something." I'm like, "Okay. Let's do something." So we're down in Mexico, and there are these abandoned elders, who are literally taken off the streets by this foundation, and of the thousands and thousands that they could help, they can help 250 a year or something, or actually more at a time, because the population changes, but it's only 250 at a time, and they were bringing in these young psychology students who sit with them for 14 weeks for an hour or two, and they detective. They use the app, and they find the music of these elders of their youth, and they listen to it together, and they learn their life stories. We've created another thing called Memories, which is this ... It's a very simple computer program that basically lets you create a digital, communally create a digital scrapbook for somebody. My vision is it's going to happen I the next year, is I want every hospital room, every nursing home, that you're going to be able to go and some volunteer will have created the life story for these elders, so that anyone in the healthcare community can just scan the QR code on their picture ... We're making these necklaces for them, and you'll know their life story in two minutes. You'll know where they came from, who they loved, what they did. Dr. Bob: I love that. Michael Rossato-Bennett: What their music was because it's just crazy. I've seen so many healthcare situations, where I've seen people care for people for 10 years, and love them, and not know who they were. Dr. Bob: Exactly. Not know a thing about them. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Not know a thing about them. Dr. Bob: Right. And that's what drove me crazy for years and years. I was an emergency physician, and I see these incredible people coming through, and they're a shell. They're in this shell, and if someone takes the time to actually connect with them and ask them something beyond when's the last time you have a bowel movement? Where does it hurt? But to actually be interested in who they are. I was just memorized, fascinated by what would come out, and that's a lot of why I transitioned in my career into doing something where I got to honor these people for the person they are and always have been, even though at this stage, it's physically they're different. The spirit inside of them, the essence of that person is unchanged from where it was when they were flying bombers in World War II, or dancing in competitions at 18 in the 1930s. And so what we do, I think we are aligned in the work that we're doing. I will want to connect with you further because I really do want to talk about how to bring the programs that you're talking about, especially the program with the youth together with the elders, and sharing this. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Oh, I would love to talk. Dr. Bob: So we may end up trying to schedule a second call. I'm going to wrap it up soon, and I just really appreciate your honest, thoroughly passionate view that you were able to share. I do want to make sure that people know how to get more information, and there will be links on my website to the Alive Inside Foundation site, and I'm happy to connect people with you. If you want, you just let me know. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Yeah. Dr. Bob: What kind of connections you're looking for, how we can help to support your passion and your movement because it's life-changing and it's revolutionary. It shouldn't seem revolutionary, because it's pretty simple basic stuff, make connections, and you create joy, right? Michael Rossato-Bennett: Well, I think it's revolutionary. We call it an empathy revolution, because certain things in our human vocabulary have been devalued, and a lot of people, myself included, it's taken long life journeys to be able to just honor the treasure that I have inside my chest. The fact that I am alive is such a treasure, and it's so devalued in our culture. The children, we don't honor the life in children. We don't honor the life on the planet. We don't honor the life in our elders, and it's all there is, and we only get it for a very brief time, and it breaks my heart to think of how many years I spent beating myself up and not enjoying life, and I look around, and I see so many people who are not able to really ... They only get this brief time with this incredible treasure called life. And that's why I bring the elders and the kids together because I think the elders actually teach the kids, "Hey, you're alive, and you're not going to alive for much longer, and look at me. This is what the end of life looks like, and guess what? I'm engaged here. I've only got a short time left, and I'm engaged." It's been shown that older people live with incredible pain and smile, whereas middle-aged people if their back goes out and they lay in their bed for a week. Dr. Bob: That's right. And they bitch and moan about how miserable they are. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Yes. Dr. Bob: Well, don't beat yourself up too badly about time that you've lost. You have lots of time left to contribute, and you're obviously doing a great job of that. So Michael Rossato-Bennett-Bennett, thank you so much for taking time and sharing your passion and more about your project and your mission, and best of luck to you, and hopefully, you'll be willing to come back, and we'll do some followup on another episode. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Well, thank you for calling me, Bob. That was very sweet.
For decades Kathryn Tucker has been supporting people's rights to have a peaceful and dignified death. She's fought to protect the medical aid in dying laws. Listen to learn more about the End of Life Liberty Project. Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Contact End of Life Liberty Project Dr. Bob: Katheryn Tucker is an attorney who's dedicated almost 30 years to supporting the right of individuals to have a peaceful and dignified death in a manner that's consistent with their values. In this work, and in this effort, she and I are very aligned. She helped initiate and protect the medical aid in dying laws in Oregon and Washington State as well as California, and has continued to be a fierce advocate for this right on a state and national level. Katheryn's a graduate of Georgetown University Law School, and she's currently serving as the executive director of the End Of Life Liberty Project, which is now based at the UCSF/UC Hastings Consortium on law, science and health policy. Katheryn is recognized as a national leader in spearheading creative and effective efforts to promote improved care for people who are seriously ill and dying. And on this episode, Katheryn is discussing her passion for supporting and protecting people's right to a peaceful and dignified death. As well as her views on the current laws in place in certain states that allow terminally ill people to access physician aid in dying or otherwise known as death with dignity. I personally found this conversation to be highly informative, a bit provocative and incredibly interesting. I hope you do too. Well. Katheryn, I am so happy to have this conversation with you. And I really appreciate you taking time. I know you're a busy lady, and involved in lots of important things. So, again, thanks for sharing your time and your expertise with my listeners. Kathryn Tucker: Well, thank you for having me. My pleasure. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I feel like we have so many different things that we could talk about that are important, but I'd like to start out, you're a passionate advocate for people having the most peaceful, dignified end of life as am I. We have we approach it from different angles, but with the same kind of general mission, which is to allow people to be self-determining and have more control. You've been doing this for a long time, how did you become such a passionate advocate for this? Kathryn Tucker: I started doing this work when I was a brand new lawyer back in 1990, and I was the outside counsel to the first initiative campaign in the country to put before voters the question of whether dying patients should be able to receive physician assistants in dying. So, my work started that year with that campaign. I did become passionate about empowering patients with information and choices as a civil liberty, and one of the most profoundly personal decisions a person can make in a lifetime. Dr. Bob: So, was this something that you ... Is this a direction that you chose at that time back in 1990, or did it just fall into your purview based on where you were working and what you were doing? Kathryn Tucker: I was a young lawyer in a big law firm in Seattle, Perkins Cooley that supported its lawyers taking on pro bono work. So, I actually was casting about for some public interest work and came upon the campaign, Washington Citizens For Death With Dignity, and just volunteered to provide some legal support. Right at that moment, the initiative was being drafted. So, I got involved with that drafting. Then we had a long campaign that involved the defense of the ballot title in court, that's the words that the voters will see when they go to make their vote and is very important to the outcome of the vote. So, we had litigation about that. We had litigation around false political advertising because some of the claims that were being made about what the law would allow were so outrageously wrong that we challenged those in court. So, it turned out to be a year and a half working to get this in front of the voters. And it very nearly passed even though it was quite a broad measure, much broader than what was passed in Oregon a few years later. So, my work on that then rolled forward into doing some work on the Oregon Effort in 1994. But also the orchestrating of two federal lawsuits that were seeking to have the federal courts and ultimately the United States Supreme Court recognize that the choice of a dying patient for a more peaceful death with physician assistants was an interest that should be protected by provisions of the United States Constitution. So, that work then got underway, and 25 years later I'm still doing this role. Dr. Bob: You're still doing that. Do you ever wonder what would have happened if you never were asked to participate in that back in 1990- Kathryn Tucker: It would probably have been a less interesting and satisfying career. I think that this question which is that the intersection of law, medicine, bioethics is very fascinating, and there are so many perspectives and so many complexities that 25 years later it says interesting as it was when I first got started. So, I'm very grateful and privileged to be able to do this work.Dr. Bob: I completely get that. This work has been part of my life only for the past couple of years since the end of Life Option Act passed in California, but it's so complex, and it makes me feel so, I guess, alive and invigorated to be able to provide such a high level of support at such an incredible and vulnerable and intense time in people's lives. Kathryn Tucker: Right, absolutely. Dr. Bob: So, I commend you, and you're partly responsible for what's transpired and what's now allowing people to have this kind of control and peace. And so I thank you for all the efforts that you've put in. I know that you've gone way above and beyond, you've created a nonprofit to additionally provide support. So, 25 years after you began, what are you currently focusing your energy and attention on right now? Kathryn Tucker: Well, one of the things that I constantly try to do is have some perspective on whether the efforts that we have been engaging to expand end of life liberty are actually achieving that. My current view is that while the work we did with the Oregon Death With Dignity [inaudible 00:07:50] which became the first statute to permitted and dying, enacted by voter initiative in 1994 by the Oregon voters. But then subsequently followed in many other states that have essentially what's referred to as the Oregon model. Which is a very heavy-handed government regulation of the practice of medicine with regard to aid and dying. That very heavy-handed government regulation may have been appropriate and necessary in 1994 when no state had an open practice of aid and dying. And there were many unanswered questions about how an open practice would impact patients and the practice of medicine. So, the Oregon enactment was designed first to actually be able to run the gauntlet of the political process. So, it needed to have a tremendous number of what are referred to as safeguards. You'll recall that the Oregon measure followed a failed attempt in Washington State in '91, and then a failed attempt in California in '92. So, by the time we were working in Oregon in '94, it was the kitchen sink approach to protection, regulation and safeguard so that the contentions of opponents that this would be dangerous could be effectively combated by showing how many safeguards, in fact, were in place. So, that's the backdrop of why the Oregon measure has the multitude of restrictions, requirements, and constraints that it does. Following Oregon's enactment. Other states adopted virtually the same but in some cases even more burdensome measures. Because at that point they could say well, the Oregon approach has worked well. So, everyone in this forum can feel comfortable voting for this. That's been effective. We saw Washington State and Vermont and Colorado and California and Hawaii adopt what are called Oregon style aid in dying measures. The problem is we're now more than 20 years later; we've got abundant data that shows who chooses aid in dying and why, and how it impacts patients in the practice of medicine. So, we now know a lot more than we knew in the early '90s. I think it's time to move away from the Oregon model because what we have also seen, and a multitude of studies are starting to report is that very heavy-handed government regulation comes at a tremendous cost. It creates barriers to patient access, which I know you've seen in your practice. And it creates tremendous burdens for physicians, which of course you're also aware of, which means few doctors are willing, and patients find difficulty finding doctors, and it's very problematic. So, the advocacy that I am embarking into now is really to move the practice of aid in dying into a standard of care approach, which is how all of medicine is practiced Dr. Bob: Awesome. You are really gifted at articulating all of that, and I think you did a great job of sharing how things got to be as they are today. Could you go a little deeper into what the heavy-handed government regulations you're referring to are? Kathryn Tucker: Sure, and I know you know them very well. Dr. Bob: Right? I want our audience to be aware of what we're talking about. Kathryn Tucker: Right. Well, so, on the eligibility side, and I don't really quibble with this because I think this is where our culture accepts the practice of aided dying. The patient must be diagnosed with six months or less life expectancy. They must be mentally competent. So, this is a decision that can only be made by a patient who has the ability to make their own informed medical decisions. Then the physician involvement is limited to providing the prescription for medication which the patient can self-administer. Those three bright lines, terminal illness, mental competency and patient self-administration, I think are what this culture accepts and are appropriate however the practice is conducted. Whether it's subject to statute, or standard of care. But then beyond that, what these regulatory statutes require is a tremendous amount of process and procedure. The patient must make multiple requests. It must be oral and written; they must be witnessed. They must have a minimum 15-day waiting period, although in the case of Hawaii that's now been extended to a minimum waiting period of 20 days. There's a tremendous amount of requirement for the collection and recording of data. And all of that is apparent to the practice of medicine. And most medical practices, even practices that result in the death of the patient and in fact, can be anticipated to precipitate the death of the patient are practice subject to standard of care. Which means the practice and procedures that govern are those that have been shown to be most efficacious and to deliver the best care to the patient. That is something that can evolve over time as clinicians discover what is most efficacious. So, it's an evolving standard, which best serves the patient. Here, just to bring it into a concrete example, I think we can all see that a 15-day mandatory state regulated waiting period causes a tremendous amount of suffering that standard of care would likely not impose. Clinicians free to determine whether there should be a waiting period would likely have it be much shorter. They might say to the patient, and Dr. Bob, you can say what you might say. You might turn to your patient and say, "Why don't you sleep on this, and we'll talk about it at our visit next Tuesday, or we'll talk about it tomorrow on the phone." It wouldn't be an additional 15 days. Because remember, patients come to this choice when the cumulative burden of suffering is so horrific that they feel that achieving death is their best option. So, they're in tremendous suffering when they're ready to make that choice, and then mandating waiting another 15 days, which many patients don't even live long enough is just cruel. Dr. Bob: Agreed. I completely agree. So, that does seem to be the most significant burdensome aspect. It's interesting, I hear about how often people have these multiple struggles trying to find a physician who will support them. Once they do find somebody, often it's because they're part of a hospital system, and they've been referred to so and so, or their own doctor has finally agreed to. But they also have these processes in place that mandatorily referral to an ethics counselor or a psychologist or psychiatrist even though they've never had any hint of mental illness throughout their entire life. But when people find me, and I know there are other physicians, Lonny Shavelson, and there are other physicians who are truly focused on providing support and honoring the patient and not primarily focused on protecting themselves and worrying about the liability or the hassle factor. The process really can be very streamlined. It doesn't feel in many cases for the patients that we care for, overly burdensome aside from the 15-day waiting period. So, I know we've had conversations about that- Kathryn Tucker: You are to be commended for your willingness to put up with so much procedure. Because doctors are busy people, and to create additional burdens on the clinician as these statutes do, well beyond what would be done for example, with the provision of palliative sedation, of course, is another medical choice that patients can make, and physicians can provide. Where death is the certain outcome after some considerable period of time, while the patient essentially dehydrates to death without any of that paperwork, without any of that reporting of data. It just happens within normal medical practice, which I think is where most physicians are comfortable practicing. That's a difficult enough job as it is without layering a tremendous additional level of process procedure and second-guessing on top. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I'm in agreement. What I've come to discover since becoming willing to participate and support patients and families is, I have concerns about this becoming a more ... About having a lot more physicians support participating. I want patients to have easier access, and not struggle to find the support that they need. But knowing how much time and energy goes into providing that support, the questions the patients have, the families have, the multiple, multiple phone calls and emails and communications as this is moving forward, I'm very concerned that most physicians in a traditional practice don't have the mechanism or don't have the wherewithal to provide that support. So, we would certainly have to be able to address that. Because otherwise, people are going to be struggling not having the information they need, not having the support they need. What are your thoughts about a process that can be put in place to ensure that that's happening? Kathryn Tucker: Well, I certainly think that clinicians who are willing to expand their practice to include aid in dying are going to be those that are highly motivated to respect their patients autonomy and to want to make sure that the patient is able to make the journey to death in the manner that is most consistent with their very personal preferences and values and beliefs. So, this is a fairly unusual subset of clinicians that will feel strongly about that. I think that they will take the responsibility of ensuring that the patient's request is voluntary and considered and enduring. I think they will take that all very seriously in a standard of care practice. Those clinicians will provide it. So, it will self-select. Certainly, not everyone is going to make this part of their practice. And we know that, for example, 20% of surveyed physicians in a New England Journal of Medicine survey were unwilling to discuss palliative sedation with their patients. That's an option that is clearly accepted by both law and medicine, and it should be available to patients in all 50 states. Yet, a fifth of doctors don't inform their patients about it. So, we know that physicians self-select what they're willing to provide in terms of care, and not all physicians would provide aid in dying. I'd like to see the model that we've been able to open the door to in Montana, considered by other states. And that's the one state that now has nearly a decade of aid in dying practice subject to standard of care, not subject to statute. I think that that model should be more closely looked at by other states and by advocates. Because it's much more normal in the practice of medicine than to have statutory governance. Dr. Bob: Yeah, it's an interesting model. Do you know how ... Of course, Montana is not a very populous state. Is there any data on the numbers of patients that are taking advantage of that right in Montana? Kathryn Tucker: Right. Well, you asked the question that we all ask, and the answer is no. Which is as it should be, because, absent a statute, clinicians are not required to collect and report data to a state agency, which then publishes the data for public review. So, we don't know the answer to that question. We do know anecdotally, from talking to clinicians who have embraced aid in dying in their medical practice, that some clinicians are practicing, and some have been very public about that, and have been willing to talk about their experience in other forums, including in lawsuits, trying to expand and have life, liberty and other states. So, we have the experience and the testimony of participating clinicians, but we don't have survey information. And in fact, I've been working with some researchers who do research into the practice of aid in dying in various states and published studies that you'd probably read about that practice. To encourage them to embark into the kind of surveying that would allow us to answer that question in Montana. It's really, they're excited to do it, it's a question of finding the funding to support their work, and we are also planning a symposium in the state of Montana to bring forward the experience there, and hopefully interested clinicians and patients and health policy researchers from around the country will come to that symposium to learn more about the Montana experience. Dr. Bob: Great. Do you know when that's going to be happening? Kathryn Tucker: We have just chosen the date. It will be September 6, 2019. Dr. Bob: Okay, so about a year plus in the planning. Sounds good. I'll put that on my calendar. Kathryn Tucker: Great. Dr. Bob: Another model that I find interesting, we were talking about the concern about physicians, if more physicians were participating in supporting aid in dying, do they have the wherewithal to truly support the patients? I did an interview with Robert John Keir in the Netherlands, and we talked about the model there, which of course allows euthanasia, in a much broader scope. But they allowed physicians to serve as an attending physician without any specialized training or background. But every patient is required to be seen by a specialist in this infield. There's a select number of physicians who are trained to be able to do the assessment and to provide the guidance and support. So, they provide support for not only the patient but for the physicians who have the relationship with the patient. So, what it does, is it assures that every patient has the adequate support that they would need, which would be an interesting model to be looking at here as well. Because one of the reasons that physicians, many physicians are reluctant is because they were concerned about the burden. They're concerned about the time involvement that they don't know enough to make sure that they're doing everything properly. So, what are your thoughts about that? Kathryn Tucker: Yeah, I don't favor having an extremely specialized small cadre of physicians who do this work. I much favor that the patient can turn to their own physician in the context of hopefully, a long-standing doctor, patient relationship, which can be very rich in terms of what the doctor knows about this individual, and their values, their beliefs, their preferences, and that that can inform the care the physician is able to provide the patient. Rather than having the patient come into contact at a difficult, vulnerable, burdened time of life to meet a new professional, and try to ramp that person up in explaining who they are, and why this is important to them. That's a complex dialogue that one would hope has gone over some period of time. And I think that's why it's so difficult Of course, to extrapolate cross-culturally. But I think it accounts for when you take a look at the data from the Netherlands where it is common that there are these long-standing doctor-patient relationships. And that that then allows the clinician to feel comfortable actually administering life-ending medication to the patient, which is not permitted in the States. But when you're in a situation with a very long-standing relationship, and there's a lot of clarity and understanding about the patient's wishes, the clinician then feels comfortable doing that, and the society feels comfortable supporting it. So, I tend to favor the physician assistants coming from a position with a long-standing relationship with the patient. Dr. Bob: I couldn't agree more. I absolutely believe that that is the ideal version and the ideal scenario. But realistically, I'm also aware of what life is like for physicians, and what that relationship has become. And unfortunately, it would be a long time, which I think many things would have to change for that to become reality. And I think we're both aware of that. That's the idealized version, which would be phenomenal, and it does happen at times. There are times when I have a physician who will contact me and say, my patient is requesting this, I want to support them, I don't really know what to do. It's my first time, and they request my support in guiding them to allow them to be the attending physician, and I may become the consulting physician, but providing additional guidance and support. Kathryn Tucker: That's exactly as it seems it should be, which is that's how standard of care and best practices are established, is clinicians who are new to a practice will look to peers for guidance. That's the beauty of standard of care governance is, hopefully, the more experienced clinician helps the beginner understand what best practices are. And those can, in a normal environment be allowed to evolve as the clinicians learn in providing care. So, I think that's the direction we should be moving, and much of my work now is oriented toward bringing that about. Dr. Bob: That's wonderful. I'm fully supportive of that aspect. I'd like to ... Again, we could speak for hours and just barely scratch the surface of all the things that we might want to talk about. And I am hopeful that you'll be willing to come back and do another podcast with me at some point in the future. But before we close, I just want to give you an opportunity to share whatever it is that's bubbling up for you, if there's something that you want to make sure that you articulate to the listeners, I'd like to give you that opportunity. Kathryn Tucker: Well, I will close by thanking you for offering me this opportunity to share some insight into the work of the End Of Life Liberty Project. And for any listeners who don't know the work with that project, you can find out more by visiting our website, which I hope you will do. We are based out of the UCSF/UC Hastings Consortium on law, science and health policy. But if you just Google End Of Life Liberty Project, you'll come to our website where there's information about our work. There's also a handy donate button. Because of course, this work is the work of a nonprofit and can only happen when donors support the work. So, if any of your listeners are in a position to support this work, we're always grateful and make tremendous mileage out of every dollar donated. You can also like us on Facebook, and get updates on the work of the project through following us on Facebook. Dr. Bob: Fantastic. And we'll make sure that the links for the sites and the Facebook page are on the website where we post all the podcasts. And that's at integratedmdcare.com/newsite1. Again, this was fascinating. I'm always fascinated and grateful to speak with you. I feel like we are in partnership in something incredibly meaningful. The patients and families that we get to care for are benefiting from your tireless efforts. And again, thank you for giving us some of your time and wisdom. Kathryn Tucker: Thanks for the opportunity Bob, and for all of your good work as well. So, congratulations to you.
Lydia Lombardi Good is a licensed clinical social worker. She shares the importance of self-compassion, what it is, and how to get comfortable with it and how it helps the grieving process. Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Contact Lydia Lombardi Good, Pier View Counseling Transcript How Self-Compassion Helps The Grieving Process Dr. Bob: Yeah. That's my pleasure. This is a Life and Death Conversation, and we talk about things that we can do to enhance life and bring more joy and peace to life, and of course, we talk about death. We don't shy away from the topic of death. We always explore a bit about how our guests feel about the whole end of life, death and dying, what experiences they've had, how the awareness of death seems to show up in your life. For people who come on and have these conversations, most of the time they're pretty comfortable speaking about death and sharing their experiences and thoughts about it. I'm just going to open it up and let you share a little bit. I know that you do a lot of work in grief and loss, and you've been in hospice, and have a lot of experience. So share a little bit about what the idea of death and dying means to you, and how it shows up in your life. Lydia Lombardi Good: What I learned from my experience with death and dying, working with clients, having my own personal experience losing close loved ones, is the more we think about death and understand that it is inevitable, and we are all dying a little bit every day, I think the richer a life we are able to live, and we are more mindful of the choices we make, and the people we choose to surround ourselves with, and the life we want to live, knowing that nothing is permanent. Everything is impermanent. And if we live a life without regrets and can be more present to our lives instead of staying maybe stuck in the past, or focused too much on the future, we can look back and say, "You know, I fully experienced all that. I don't wish to be back there again. I wish to be right here, right now, to live my life fully," knowing that we really only have one shot at that. So that's how it's changed me a lot in terms of my own choices, the way I live my life, the way I try to stay compassionate. A lot of it's talked today, and what I really am passionate about is teaching people to embody self-compassion and treat yourself kindly, the way you would treat a close friend. And the more we can do that, the better life we can have. The more chances we take, the more we can just fix up things as they are, instead of always wishing things to be another way, or for us to be another way. And when we do that, we're missing what's happening right now. Dr. Bob: Yeah. That's beautiful. And I think it's pretty common to hear people share that when they contemplate death, when they recognize, like you say, the impermanence of everything, it really allows us to stay more focused on what's happening right now, and feel gratitude, and just feel very present. I want to talk about the mindfulness, the self-compassion, and the mindfulness, because mindfulness meditation, self-compassion have figured prominently in my life and I've done my work there, I've gone through courses in mindfulness. And it's so interesting what you said, to treat yourself the way that you would treat a close friend. Do we do that? I mean, do we really do that? The stuff that we lay on ourselves, and the way that we diss ourselves, which is so common. Like, if we were doing that to a friend, would they stick around? Would we still- Lydia Lombardi Good: We wouldn't have any. Dr. Bob: We wouldn't have any friends. Share a little bit more about that, about how you came to that, what your journey has been to become a teacher of self-compassion and mindfulness. Lydia Lombardi Good: Yes. Yeah. So, I was working in hospice since about 2007, 2008. Right out of graduate school I started this work, and I think I understood it to the best of my knowledge. I'd had a lot of loss in my past, and a lot of trauma that I thought I had worked through and had done a lot of healing around and was in this work. And I think I had as much compassion for the experiences of my clients and patients as I could have at the time, for that point I was in my life where I was at and what experiences I had been a part of at that point. And then it was 2012; I lost my dad to cancer. He died of prostate cancer and endocrine cancer. So the three years prior to that, we were taking care of him, and it was a real aggressive form, so it was a really difficult dying process. So that following year I was in charge of settling what I call closing out someone's life. That process of closing up his home, preparing it for the next chapter, getting his belongings and setting up beneficiaries, that kind of thing, and doing my grief as best as I could, as much as I knew how at that time. And then, shortly before the one year anniversary, I got a call from the medical examiner's office that my uncle, who was one of my father's primary caregivers aside from myself, had taken his life. So then I embarked on that next journey. I was his only family here, so helping to then close out another person's life. And then two months later, I get a call. My husband's out of state at a bachelor party. And I get a call that he's had an accident and I need to fly out immediately to Arizona and be with him because he's had a traumatic brain injury. So I fly out there and spend 10 days in ICU with him until we were basically told that we need to consider letting him go because he was not going to recover at that point. So my real journey I think began there. I could make sense that my dad was in his late 70's, although for some that is still young, but he had lived a really full life. My uncle, I wasn't as close with. It was a different type of grief, but losing my own husband was a total ... knocked me off my feet. It was a total life-changer. So basically, learning about self-compassion and mindfulness started the year before, when my dad was going through his dying process, but really kicked into high gear after I lost my husband, simply for just survival. I was in survival mode- Dr. Bob: Yeah, self-preservation. Lydia Lombardi Good: ... trying to figure out, yeah, how do I survive all this. Three in a row, I'm totally alone, feeling like I'm totally alone. How do I keep going? How do I keep going? How do I make sense of ... if this can happen to my 32-year-old husband, what's going to happen to me? This feeling of just total lack of safety and security and anything that I once knew. So that's when things really, really kicked into high gear for me. And a couple of years later I ended up leaving hospice. I was working out as a bereavement manager, and I decided to start my own practice, focusing on grief and trauma. A lot of it because of all the work I did with amazing clinicians, and spiritual healers, and energy healers, and the amazing, amazing people that supported me through my past, inspired me so much that I felt I really needed to do this myself and work with individuals again, and step away from the program planning and go back to pure clinical work. And it's been amazing. Dr. Bob: I bet. Wow. And like many people, your journey has taken you someplace because of your own personal experience. I mean, you have the training, you have the structure of having worked in a company, but once you had your own personal experience and were down in the depths, and then figured out what you needed to do to survive, and then I'm assuming beyond surviving, starting to thrive again, you recognized that you needed to be in a position to share that on a deeper level. Lydia Lombardi Good: Yeah. It's been tremendously healing, although I didn't jump into it necessarily to do it for my own healing. I wanted to make sure that was taken care of on its own, so I wasn't coming to work with clients doing my own work. But feeling complete and on a really steady path with my own healing empowered me to know the tools that work for people, and to empower others to consider some of these healing modalities. And mindfulness and self-compassion were right up there. They were the primary methods for me in terms of my healing. A lot of people as what does that mean. When I heard, "Self-compassion," I frankly, four, five, or six years ago I never knew what that even meant. It's not a term a lot of people in western culture understand or use. So really learning what that meant, and practicing it for myself, so I could know how to show others to do that. Dr. Bob: So why don't you try to explain it and let people know, because there's probably a lot of people here who ... you know, the self-compassionate conjures up some images and some thoughts, but I think you could probably do a really good job of helping people see what it really is to learn self-compassion. Lydia Lombardi Good: Yeah. So, self-compassion defined more is bringing yourself to the same attitude and understanding that you would do for others, or a beloved friend. So asking, how can I care for and comfort myself at this moment, instead of judging and criticizing. How can I bring kindness and understanding, and patience, when I'm confronted with a personal feeling or loss, instead of beating myself up. And then honoring and accepting your humanness. And with grief, I think where I see a lot of people, and I did this myself, we put ourselves in a timeline immediately. I was talking to a woman the other day, and she said to me she just lost her fiance a week ago. And she said, "I'm trying to be happy. I know I need to be happy, so I'm just going to be happy, and I cry when I need to, but I just want to be happy." And I said, "You know, why do you have to be happy? You just lost your fiance. Can you just honor what's really happening with you? You're sad, you're angry, you're all these feelings ..." that she was telling me before she said she felt she had to be happy. We try to pressure ourselves to move faster than we actually it's reasonable for our healing. And this is actually what stuns our healing when we try to pretend it's another way. We try to pretend that ... you know, you'll hear people saying, "In a year you should be better. Just give yourself that year." Well, for some people a year it's just begun. The trauma is just starting to settle, and now all of the sudden there is space for grief. Or the realization or the beginnings of acceptance begin to occur after a year, for some people longer. None of that's wrong; it's just is. But with self-compassion, we can give ourselves that space to say, "Whatever's happening is just right for me. As long as I'm not hurting myself or I'm hurting another person, this is what I need to do in order to move forward and to heal, step by step." Dr. Bob: So how does that happen? How does somebody learn self-compassion? How do you go from having the normal chatter, the typical berating and judging that most people have ... has become sort of their pattern, to having this self-compassion, and what's the process? Lydia Lombardi: I think the first part is learning you're being able to become aware of the voice inside you and what it's saying, so really listening to that. So if you start to notice your pattern of self-deprecation, or being really hard and punitive with yourself in difficult times, starting to become an observer of those thoughts instead of allowing yourself to become hooked to them. The problem is, a lot of us, me included again, we get so used to those thoughts, they just become ... we get on autopilot with them, which becomes kind of a way of being. But by practicing things like mindfulness, or meditation, we allow ourselves to slow down a little bit, take a breath in between thoughts, and start to notice the thoughts instead of getting hooked. For example, I used to notice I would get really frustrated with myself when I would get really, really down. Like, a year or two after my husband had died, I would all of a sudden have a really bad day, a really bad grief day, and I used to think to myself, "Gosh, where is this coming from? What's going on? Why am I feeling this? Gosh, I've done all this healing, and I've done all this work. Why am I sobbing now? Something must be wrong with me. Maybe I'm just not doing enough work to heal." And all these questions, instead of just catching the thought and saying, "You know what? There I go again. Can I just have the feeling that I'm feeling and let it rise and fall naturally, instead of resisting?" Because we find, when we push against it, and we create this resistance, we actually create more suffering for ourselves. And this is a real Buddhist concept as well, that pain is inevitable, but pain with resistance equals the suffering. When we can just settle into the pain and just feel it, it's like when we have a good cry. When you're stuffing it down, and it's that nod in your throat, it hurts so bad, it's so uncomfortable, but then when we just let ourselves ball, all of a sudden you notice you come out of it and it's like, wow, I feel so much better. Why didn't I just let myself do that before? Dr. Bob: It's a catharsis, yeah. Lydia Lombardi Good: Yeah. Dr. Bob: I think we need to allow for more of that. So, a big thing that's coming up for me as you're describing this process is awareness, self-awareness. That's the first step, right? Because if you're not aware, if you don't have an awareness of what's truly taking place, there's no way that you can influence it, or impact it. Lydia Lombardi Good: Exactly. Dr. Bob: And again, going back to this, sort of the analogy of treating yourself like you would treat a friend, imagine if you were with somebody and they said something just kind of off the cuff, and your response was, "Well, you're an idiot. Like, what a stupid thing to say." Or, "There you go again, making a fool of yourself," those kinds of things that people are so comfortable saying to themselves, thinking to themselves, that if they were being said out loud to a friend, they would never tolerate that. Lydia Lombardi Good: That's right. That's right. That's exactly right. Why is that okay to do to ourselves? Dr. Bob: Yeah. It's not, but we do it, and we keep doing it. And I think we just believe that this is the way that it is. People become so accustomed, and I think it deflates you just like if you have a teacher who's always telling you how stupid you are, or a parent who's always telling you how disobedient you are, or sloppy, or whatever. That has an impact, and it will keep us from really feeling the depth of I guess the beauty and the magic of life. Lydia Lombardi Good: Yes. And it holds you back from that experience that you deserve to grief. And sometimes that sounds really strange when I say that to people, the love you had for that person needs to be expressed through your grieving process. Someone told me years ago grief is the twin of love. You can't have one without the other. So, why are we suppressing this grief expression if it's simply an expression of our love? And whatever that grief presentation looks like. For some it's crying, for some it's sharing stories with family, or memories, or whatever that looks like, memorializing, ritualizing the person. But you're entitled to that experience. That's how we're able to move forward. But when you don't allow that experience to yourself, it's still there; it's still going to be there. A lot of people will say time heals everything. It's actually time and attention. Time alone doesn't do a thing if we're not giving it the attention that it needs to do the healing that we deserve. Dr. Bob: Time can actually just cause more festering and the wounds to deepen. Lydia Lombardi Good: Right. Dr. Bob: Yeah, if you think about it kind of like an infection in your system, yes, there are some self-limited infections that will get better over time, but there are some that if they're not addressed, if you're not aware of them, and deal with them, they'll eventually cause incredible suffering and ultimately kill you. Lydia Lombardi Good: Exactly. Exactly. I use that wound example a lot. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Interesting. And one of the other things that came up, and I'm sure that this is something that's very much in your awareness and in some of what you teach, is the concept of the gap, the space, that most people just remain unaware of. So we go back to awareness. And I think it was Victor Frankl who originally made this quote. I actually saw it in one of Steven Covey's books, but it's a quote about between stimulus and response, there is a gap, there's a space. And it's within that space that our freedom and our power come from. And the fact that we have that space to choose what to do with, how to respond, if we're going to respond, what to do with that stimulus, that feeling that came, the words that someone spoke, if we recognize that we have this power, everybody has this power to take a space, take some time, and choose what to do with it, it is too incredibly empowering. Most of us are just reacting all the time without giving any honor to that space. Lydia Lombardi Good: You're right, you're right, and that space is where all the magic happens ... Dr. Bob: That's where all the magic happens. Lydia Lombardi Good: ... where physiologically we can settle our nervous system, we can move into a more parasympathetic nervous system and really think critically, shift those thoughts to a different part of the brain and be more skillful in our actions, exactly. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Lydia Lombardi Good: And maybe that just means that we still don't know what to do, and maybe skillful means stepping away and just taking a break and thinking more about what to do next, instead of jumping right in and just making a reactionary decision that could actually lead to more harm. Dr. Bob: Right. Yeah. That awareness, and it's something that I've tried to teach with my children, with others, and of course I forget. I still at times react ... Lydia Lombardi Good: Sure. Dr. Bob: ... and then when I realize that I've given up my power, I'm giving up my power to choose a response, then I actually exaggerate it, where I start ... I'll give it a full two or three seconds, when somebody says something, rather than having an immediate response prepared and going right into it, I will exaggerate the space. And sometimes it can almost be a little awkward. People wonder what you're doing and why you're not answering, but it just kind of reminds me and allows me to feel empowered and to feel a sense of peace and control again. That's a really great exercise. Lydia Lombardi Good: Absolutely. Absolutely. We're not used to that in our culture. You're very right. We always feel like we need to fill the space. And I think that's a big part of the problem too; even when we're consoling a person who's grieving, we have a hard time just sitting with their raw emotion or the feeling, or just saying nothing and just being present to their experience. We have a hard time with that. We feel like we have to say the right thing, or jump in and fix it, or push the tissue box to them real quick, to make sure their tears don't get out of control. We can be messy and just sit with snout rolling down our face. Just say it's okay. This is what's happening right now; it's okay. We don't have to fix it; we don't have to talk over it and make it pretty, put a bow on it. Dr. Bob: That's one of the things that's been such a gift for me, working with people, especially at end of life, people who are approaching the last days or weeks of life, is I get to visit them in their homes and spend time with the patient, the family, the person. And sometimes I will just be there. The conversation will stop, and as you say, so many people want just to fill the... it's uncomfortable, so they just want to fill it and find something to say, and think that that's going to make it better. But what I'm recognizing is, people will want to know that you're comfortable just being present, and just holding that space, maybe holding their hand, having a head on the shoulder, or just being in that space so you can feel what it is that's happening, and maybe reflect back just some concerns, some love and support. As an ER doc, for the 20+ years, I was an ER doc, you don't have much time to do that. But now being in people's own home, it has been such a gift. And it's a gift for me, and I think it's a gift for them to know that there's a certain comfort with just being present. Lydia Lombardi Good: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And it's so humbling for you as the individual, to just allow yourself that humility to know that you don't have the right answer. And people really respect that I find. They can tell when you're just trying to fill the space, or trying to fix it. But when you have enough humility just to say, "You know what? God, I don't have the answer to this. Maybe there isn't an answer to this." Dr. Bob: Right. So let's just be together for a moment. Lydia Lombardi Good: I'll just be here. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Let's just be. Lydia Lombardi Good: Yeah. Dr. Bob: Yeah. That's powerful. Lydia Lombardi Good: Yeah. I'll tell you just a quick story. My husband died in November, and a month after I was [inaudible 00:25:17] mother and it was Christmas night. And my neighbor comes. This is a neighbor who I grew up on that street with for my whole life, and he had a son who had died. I think five years prior, in a really tragic accident. And he showed up at the door, and I open the door, and I said, "Paul, what are you doing here?" And he opens his arms, and he said, "There are no words. There are no words." He says, "I just came here to give you a hug." And every time I tell this story I get teary-eyed again because I just think, I'll never forget that. I'll never forget that. Tons of people told me all sorts of stuff, but that simple act of just, listen, I'm just here to give you a hug and to hold you. I don't have answers; I don't have anything to tell you what to do or not to do. I just want to be here, was so profound and I'll never forget that. I try to remember that very clearly, to remember of my own action, how to be with others, how important that was. We forget. We forget the importance of that simplicity, that human connection. We're looking for the next intervention. Dr. Bob: Yeah. And that goes back to a little bit of that self-talk. It's like, "I don't know enough words. I can't be consoling or comforting. My presence isn't ... that's just not enough." So it's complex, and I think it takes time for someone to learn this too. It's not innate. For some people maybe it is, but for most of us, it's learned over time. And sometimes it's through those personal experiences as well. Lydia Lombardi Good: Right. Right. And what we do know is that actually the more we practice it, it actually can restructure parts of our limbic system in our brain and help us ... it's like building a muscle. The more we practice, the better we get at it. Or we're making new neural connections, and over time it becomes easier to tap into. But you're right. It takes time. It's a skill. It's a skill. Dr. Bob: It's an interesting thing. I was just realizing that some of what has changed for me, some of the learning that I've had through being with people in this state, in this condition, it spills over into other parts of your life, where I now feel more comfortable in other relationships with silence, with just being present and not always thinking that I have to fill the space with my wife, or with my children, that there's a deeper connection that can exist just by sharing a space together, which is interesting because a lot of time I'm someone who has kind of felt like if we're together, we should be talking. Like, we should be communicating about something in some way, and if not, then it's because we don't have anything to say. Lydia Lombardi Good: Right. Right. Dr. Bob: So I'd become much more comfortable, which is nice. Lydia Lombardi Good: Yes. Yeah. It's so beautiful that when we get better at this in our work, it does spill over and makes all of our relationships and experiences, as I said in the beginning, so much richer. Yeah. Dr. Bob: So you're in San Diego, right? Or in San Diego County. Do you have an office where people come to see you? Or do you go- Lydia Lombardi: Yes. Dr. Bob: ... see people at home? How does your practice work? Lydia Lombardi Good: I have a practice in Vista, North County San Diego, Pier View Counseling. Pier like the pier in the ocean. And I specialize in supporting people who are experiencing grief, trauma. And my subspecialty is really working with partner loss. But all ages. I actually have a group as well in Vista, at Vista Library, the second Saturday of every month. It's a grief support group. Anyone's welcome to come. We've been going on for about almost three years now, and people come and go and use the space as needed, and it's a really nice complement to some of the individual work I do, where people either who just aren't interested in individual work right now, or just looking for others who are going through a same life transition they are and are just, again, wanting to tap into that common humanity, which is part of that self-compassion piece, knowing others are experiencing what you're experiencing too, although it looks a little different, we're all going through something. So yes. People come to me at my practice. And I do some Saturday hours at another office in Oceanside, but mostly Vista. Dr. Bob: All right. Great. And I'm assuming that you have some resources for people on your website, that can help them get a little more information about you, and a little bit about some of the topics that we've been covering? Lydia Lombardi Good: Yes. PierViewCounseling.com. Dr. Bob: We'll have links for that on the podcast as well, integratedmdcare.com. So there are lots of ways for people to find you, which is wonderful. Lydia Lombardi Good: Great. Dr. Bob: I have a feeling, now that we've had a chance to connect, for me to learn more about your background and how you approach things, I certainly feel that there will be opportunities for us to collaborate with some of the patients and families that we're supporting as well. Lydia Lombardi Good: Well, I'd be honored. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I look forward to that. I really, really appreciate you taking the time and sharing some of your experience and your wisdom with our listeners, and I'm hopeful that maybe there will be another opportunity to bring you back on and revisit some of this in the future. Lydia Lombardi: Thank you. And thank you for everything you do. So important. I could say that from working in the field, but then when you actually have it, when my dad was dying, having that experience in our home, it changed everything. I saw it from a whole another light, how critical that support is when a family member is dying. So thank you for what you do. Dr. Bob: It's my honor, and I imagine having you there for your father who was an incredible gift for him. So he was very fortunate in that. Lydia Lombardi Good: Yeah. Grateful. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Thanks, everybody for tuning in, and we'll talk with you very soon. Have a great day.
Chelsea Berler is a successful entrepreneur, and author and an inspiration for many people. Tragically, she is also dying from breast cancer at the age of 34, but you won't hear Chelsea describe what she's going through as a tragedy nor is she a victim. Listen and please share this episode with others who need to hear it. Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Contact Learn more about Chelsea's nonprofit organization, The Foye Belle Foundation, by watching the video below and visiting her website: Foyebelle website Transcript Dr. Bob: Chelsea Berler is a friend, a successful entrepreneur, and author and an inspiration for many people. Tragically, she is also dying from breast cancer at the age of 34, but you won't hear Chelsea describe what she's going through as a tragedy and she certainly isn't a victim. Dr. Bob: She has an amazing perspective on life and on death, which she shares with me during this interview. Anyone dealing with life challenges or has a loved one who is will certainly benefit from listening to Chelsea's heartfelt and loving words. As well as from the book that she recently published 'The Yellow House on the Left'. Listen in. Dr. Bob: Looking at your picture, your Skype profile and it looks exactly like you, but I'm assuming that that's ... I wouldn't see all that flowing blonde hair. Chelsea Berler: I look very different right now, I'd probably look like a teenager going through puberty because I am on some massive steroids and I'm getting hair where I haven't had hair before, and of course my hair's starting to grow back from the chemo. So I'm looking mighty, mighty different these days. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Well, I imagine that that's just one of the many lessons, right? Chelsea Berler: Absolutely. Dr. Bob: To learn humility not get too attached to certain appearances. Chelsea Berler: You're right. Dr. Bob: Well Chelsea, thanks for reaching out. I mean we're having this conversation because you had reached out to me recently just to touch base and honestly, I didn't know that you were dealing with any of this. That was a big surprise to learn that you were on this journey and I appreciate it in the thing that stuck out what your phrase that you wrote was, I would love to see you do more with people that are directly in the path of your work. Dr. Bob: Would you be willing to share a little bit about what that means to you? What's your thinking around wanting to connect with people who are directly in the path? What does that look like? Chelsea Berler: You know, it was so interesting how it kind of came to be is, of course, we've been connected for years and had worked together in some capacity or the next, and we play in the same circle of really great people. You were on my mind the other day because I was ... One thing I've been spending a lot of time doing is listening to podcasts and one of the biggest reasons is, is because of my current state, I have this ringing in my ears pretty consistently. Chelsea Berler: What helps is listening to something or listening to music or things of that sort, I was actually on the podcast app and just trying to search for a podcast that was inspirational, podcast about death and dying and all that. And I thought, "Oh, Bob has one." I went and looked up, and I started listening to all men. I really enjoyed them, and then I got to thinking, you know, it'd be so great to listen into other people's stories that are going through death and dying. Chelsea Berler: I'm assuming, in some situations people often aren't in the mood to be sharing any stories or feeling good enough to do that, oh who knows, young or old. But I thought maybe there was, and maybe there was an opportunity for you to be able to add some of those stories, and I thought, oh, I would also love to share mine just because it's rather unique to in hopes that it will also help someone else that may be in that same situation looking for a podcast or trying to find something like that, that kind of helps them with the process as well. So that's kind of how I came to reach out and be like, "Hey, Bob!" Dr. Bob: I'm so glad that you did and I'm so glad that you were open and that you're feeling up to doing it, I know that it's kind of day by day in terms of how that goes and so thank you. I spent a little time over the last couple of days reading some of your posts and the articles that you have on Huffington Post and just kind of getting more familiar with your journey. Dr. Bob: So first of all, you're an amazing writer and I knew that before but I'm seeing a different style, and it's a different theme of course but your ability to express yourself and the pain of it, the wonder of it, all of it, just the full catastrophe in the middle of the night. So I appreciate that you're willing to share and I know that there are people who are benefiting from that, everything that you've put out there. Dr. Bob: A lot of people just kind of shrink into their own world and don't want to contribute it anymore. Thank you for being somebody who's not doing that, who's continuing to shine your light out in the world despite the challenges that you're dealing with daily. Chelsea Berler: Yeah, and something to piggyback off that and I know that we'll get into this story a bit, but I actually decided right when I found out I have been writing and so I have another book with that, it's going to be done this week, I'm having helped from a writer that actually helped me write my last one, and it's basically on death and dying. So in all the right ways and it was mostly because I had these Huffington Post articles that I never in a million years thought I would be dying from this cancer. We all were focusing on a cure, which was very much the what was going to happen. Chelsea Berler: Since that didn't we pulled together these Huffington Post articles and wrote, she's been helping write this next book that will be out soon too, and I think that it'll be a really great contributor. It's going to be called 'The Yellow House on the Left,' so that'll be fun too. So I'll keep you posted on that. Dr. Bob: When do you anticipate that it'll be available? Chelsea Berler: I think that it'll go to print end of next week and then it'll be about two weeks until we can get that in our hands. We've been rocking and rolling on that, and I think it was just one of those things where I thought, it now is time to put all of these things into writing because I do think that there will be people that would be helped by these stories and my story and I wanted to get it out as quickly as I could, but I was like, "Gosh, could I actually make this happen?" Because day-to-day my challenges get worse for sure and so I think we'll make it. Dr. Bob: Awesome. I can't wait in that, and I'm looking forward to seeing it and reading it, and of course trying to spread it, spread it out to those who will benefit from it. Chelsea Berler: Thank you. Dr. Bob: Why don't you tell listeners what's going on, what do you, what are you dealing with day-to-day right now? Chelsea Berler: I turned 33 last year in March and my husband at that time was traveling every week to Europe for work, so he would spend basically Monday through Friday in London and Paris for work and then he comes home every week. That's been our life forever, he travels during the week, and we see each other on the weekends, and it's been lovely, that's the life that we love to live. Chelsea Berler: He was traveling a lot, and so we decided I'd love to take a big trip and go to Europe, and in lieu of him having to come home for a couple of weeks and kind of see his life there, following him around, enjoy some time in Europe because I had never been, and so we were really excited about that. Chelsea Berler: So came May, I flew over there, and I had the best trip of my life, it was truly so much fun. It was great to just see not only how busy, and crazy his life and lifestyle was over there–like the guy is like the energizer bunny–but it was just fun to just immerse yourself in another country for a while, and so we did that. That was a lot of fun. But I noticed while I was there, I was like, I could not keep up with him and to be honest, I can barely keep up with him and how like he does have high energy and I'm probably more chill. Chelsea Berler: I just noticed I was really tired and I thought, it could be jet lag and the time difference. We were between London and Paris, so it's six, seven hours difference and maybe I was trying to kind of get used to it. Then when I got back, there was about a month in between where I was still really tired. But again, I just thought, maybe I wasn't eating well or whatever, and so I started working on a program with a friend [Christie Smear 00:10:26], you probably know her. Dr. Bob: I do know her. Chelsea Berler: Wells Fargo or The Wealthy Thought Leader can. Anyways, I started doing like a cleanse with her and like I was feeling really good, and my energy was a little backup, so I was excited about that. Then in July I noticed a lump in my armpit, and it literally like, just was like in my armpit and I thought, "Well, that's weird," I'm young, you know, at the time of 33 years old and so it didn't even phase me that it could be like something crazy, but I thought, "I'll get it checked out and see what's up." Chelsea Berler: So I had just a regular gynecologist appointment that was already scheduled like my yearly exam because when you're 33, they don't have you do mammograms or anything until you're at least 40. I went in for it in end of July, I think, and she's like, "You know, it's probably nothing." Like she felt around, made sure everything looked okay. She's like, "This is probably just a lump that it's no big deal." So she said, but of course, we want to go ahead and by protocol and have them check it out, do an ultrasound on it, and maybe a biopsy just depending. Chelsea Berler: I was like, "Yeah, no problem," so we weren't really quick on scheduling it. I think I had it scheduled like a week later and they did a biopsy, and when the doctor went in and did it, he said, "You know, I'm going to do a couple more." I didn't really think much of it. So he did a couple of different biopsies in that area, and then about a week later, the doctor called my gynecologist called and said, "Do you want to come in and talk about your results?" I was like, "That's weird. Can you just let me know, you know, what you found?" She said, "Well, it all came back cancer," and I said, "What does that mean? Like cancer? Like what?" Chelsea Berler: She goes like, "I don't know, I can't interpret the results, but I need to put you in touch with an oncologist that you can meet with to discuss the outcome." At that point, I just broke down in tears, and I handed the phone to my husband who was drifting fully, and he had, of course, a lot of questions. "Can you give us more ..." I don't know anything other than these biopsies tested positive for cancer and she didn't know too much about the type or whatever. Chelsea Berler: We ended up connecting with, so she gave us a referral for an oncologist, and so it was a week after that, that we were to meet them. So we, of course, were like for an entire week, knew nothing other than we just have to meet with this doctor and we'd go to meet with her, and there was actually, we live in the Gulf of Mexico, and there was a hurricane before that ended up not hitting us. But of course when something like that happens, everything closes, and we didn't even think two thinks about it. So we went to the doctor's office, and there's a big sign that says they're closed. Chelsea Berler: The day we were supposed to figure out what was going on, we were standing in front of the doctor's office with like, "Sorry, hurricane happened last night. We're not open today." We came back home, and we were just like, this is the worst feeling in the world to know like someone found cancer and you hang, don't know anything about it and you can't get into the doctor. Chelsea Berler: The next morning we called of course and said we had an appointment, it looks like yeah, we're closed. No one called us. And they said, "Well, come in today at 4:00," because we basically begged them like, "Can someone just tell us what's going on at this point?" That was kind of a frustrating moment because it just felt like we were in limbo a bit for a couple of weeks. Chelsea Berler: Finally we met with her that next day at 4:00. She is amazing; we have the best oncologist ever. Basically, she sat there and said, "Tell me what you know so far so I can fill in the gaps." She told us that I would test it positive for triple negative breast cancer, and she wanted to go ahead and do all the genetic testing and figure out this type of cancer and rate it and all of that. She couldn't do that until we did like a full PET Scan and did all of the more specific test to kind of understand what we were dealing with. Chelsea Berler: We went ahead and did a pretty extensive genetic testing that all came back negative. Thankfully, because I also have several sisters, a mom, it had been impacted, so we know that I didn't have it genetically. Thankfully that was great. But it also stumped us because she said, for me being so young and we're having triple negative, it's awfully confusing how one like me would get something like this. Chelsea Berler: Then the other thing was we went ahead and did the PET Scan, and it looked to be pretty severe. One thing about triple negative breast cancer is it's a pretty aggressive cancer. Triple-negative breast cancer is probably the hardest one I think to combat a bit because it's not hormonal based and a lot of people like that I did chemo with were much older than me and all hormonal based breast cancer. Chelsea Berler: We were kind of dealing with that from both ends, but we ended up having the PET Scan, and everything, and she called it initially early stage 3C, but basically I'm stage four because I could have done clinical trials and all of this other stuff. We basically classified as stage for triple negative breast cancer at the time. Dr. Bob: Where else was it in addition to the lump that they had biopsied in the breast, where else at that point? Chelsea Berler: It was in my lymph nodes or is in my lymph nodes in my armpit, and then also we saw activity above the clavicle, and it was pretty tiny activity above the clavicle. They felt really confident in my care because we could do a double mastectomy although it was only in one breast, I told them right away I was like, if we're taking one, take it both. What we were going to do, the plan was is to do six months of chemo to shrink everything, and we felt really confident about that, and then we wanted to do a double mastectomy, remove the lymph nodes and then the rest of the tiny activity we saw above the clavicle we wanted to hit with radiation, and so I had a team of a surgeon, the oncologist, and the radiologist, and we all got together, they all were like super confident, like kick this. Chelsea Berler: We did the six months of chemo, I started that in September and not only did it go well, I mean I was sick as a dog and it was awful, but it went so well that when we met with our surgeon, because we were meeting with our surgeons several times, like once a month we would go in and get a mammogram and check everything and see how things are progressing. This last time when I was finishing chemo, not only did the tumors shrink so much that she said, "You don't even need a mastectomy anymore, I can do a lumpectomy and remove everything." She felt so confident, and our surgeon is amazing, she's like in her early, I think she's in her early 70's, she has seen it all it's just like, well-recommended around here are amazing. Chelsea Berler: She was just like so confident, like don't worry about thing, I think let's do a lumpectomy. We left that appointment thinking, "Holy crap, this is amazing," and they were raving about how amazing chemo is in that situation because should I have not want the chemo away we would be removing all kinds of things trying to get this cancer out. Chelsea Berler: Anyway, so my last mammogram I did was December or January. No, wait, February. That was when my last chemo was February 14th actually Valentine's Day. We did that last mammogram, and we got to go in and see it, she's like, "Come and look at this." She literally put like the pictures of the mammogram, but there was never a moment that we talked about, it was so tiny for a moment. We're excited. We had to talk about death or dying, because it wasn't even on this entire journey, because no one has been talking about that potentially happen. Chelsea Berler: There was never a moment where we talked about this could kill me, there was never a moment where we had to talk about death or dying because it wasn't even on the table. Like there was no one talking about that as being something that could potentially happen because the plan and what they were working with they just felt really confident about it. Dr. Bob: That's really interesting. I wonder if you were 73 instead of 33 if that conversation would have been different. Chelsea Berler: Yeah. Maybe. Maybe I had a lot of issues through the chemotherapy process like my white blood count was ... I was struggling a lot, so I ended up having to skip several chemos, and so they called me this unicorn. They were like, you know how you meet people and like for example, you hear a herd of horses, and you know their horses, you hear, you can hear what they sound like, right? But then you look back, and there are horses, but there's one unicorn. This unicorn that's not quite fitting in any pot, and so I was basically a bit of a problem child for them from the start when it came to even the chemo process because of course I'm with all these other patients that are going through this process, and mostly they're going through the way they need to be going through it. Chelsea Berler: I felt like almost every time I would go I would have these issues of like not being able to get chemo or being too weak or whatever. I'm like, "I'm the youngest one here by like a lot." Like I would say the next person in line in terms of age was probably in their 50's that I was with, so I was like, "Why is the young person, am I having so many problems?" I got through it, and it was so successful that we were also a bit surprised because we were worried that it wouldn't be because of the issues that I had been having. Chelsea Berler: My tumors and lymph nodes are shrunk so much that it was just amazing. At that point we scheduled surgery, so we have to wait at least four weeks after your last chemo to have surgery, so I think we scheduled it for like five and a half weeks after that. I had my birthday March 13th, I turned 34, and two days after that I got put in the hospital because ... A week prior I started getting these really weird headaches, and they would come on for about five minutes, and they would be just extremely painful for like five minutes, almost like I was having a contraction in my head, and then it would eat often go away. Chelsea Berler: It would happen like almost 10 times a day, and I was feeling like I kept saying to people like, I'm having these weird headaches, I'm having these weird headaches. I was telling the doctor, and she said, it could be, or coming off of chemo. It could be then the anxiety I was kinda having from going through this for the last six months, we couldn't quite put our finger on it. But because as a cancer patient you're always high priority and may want to make sure they're running every test possible. Chelsea Berler: She's like, "Let's do an MRI. Let's make sure nothing's going on in there. Let's scan your brain, whatever." I did a couple of MRIs; nothing showed up. I did an MRV, nothing showed up, and I was beginning to be really frustrated because everyone kept saying to me like, we can't find anything. I started feeling a little crazy like something is not right, I don't get headaches. I've never been someone to get headaches ever in my life. Chelsea Berler: To be honest, I've been a very healthy person my whole life, not ever breaking a bone or having any major issues but they couldn't quite figure it out. We went and saw a neurologist and just to meet with them, and of course he looks at me and he's like, "I don't know what's wrong with you," but basically our last resort, I talked to oncologist, and we're going to do a spinal tap and see if anything comes up. Chelsea Berler: He said, "It probably doesn't, and it's probably something that's causing some issues. It could be from coming off the chemo, we don't know, but everyone's kind of like give it some time." They had put me on some medicine right away just to try and help with the headaches; I think they might've put me on steroids right away. I did the spinal tap, and it was a Friday morning, so it was basically two days after my 34th birthday, and the neurologist actually called me and said, "I need to check you into the emergency room, the hospital, because it's possible you might have fungal meningitis." Chelsea Berler: They weren't entirely sure, but they were sending off a pathology report, but it came back with what they had so far until they could have someone else read it that it could be fungal meningitis. He said, "That's something that you have to be really careful of." So come in, and I didn't really think too thinks about it. But that morning my husband, my stepson plays for Mizzou, and he was playing in Louisiana, and I was encouraging my husband to fly to Louisiana for the day and night to see him play baseball because I've been sick, we've missed so many of his ballgames. Chelsea Berler: I was like, I'm fine. We've been doing all these tests to figure out these headaches. I'll go do this by tap, like no biggie. Please go, you know, so I spent the day with my mom, thank goodness she's local here, so I get to see her every day. So she came with me, it was no big deal. We came home, the neurologist called and said, "Come in, we need to check you in." Chelsea Berler: I didn't think anything of it, so we get checked in the hospital, and everyone's wearing masks, and I'm realizing, oh, so they think like if I have this meningitis that it could spread. Like I didn't know much about fungal meningitis. Dr. Bob: Not many people do–don't feel bad. It's not something the general population knows much about. Chelsea Berler: It was so weird, and so I realized that when we pulled in to the hospital to the emergency area, the neurologist came out and met us and brought us in and so then I thought, "Oh, so this might be kind of a big deal." I called my husband. I was like, "Listen, I'm okay and fine and good. I want you to go to this game." He just landed in Louisiana, he had flown there, and he's like, "Heck no. I'm turning around and coming back." He literally walked off the plane, walk down another one and started flying home. Chelsea Berler: At this time we got checked into the hospital, everyone's wearing mask, they had to put these like, and mind you, this is the first time I've ever been in a hospital bed before. I've never been in an ER, nothing like that. Dr. Bob: Even through all of this, even throughout the treatments and everything. You never ended up in that ER, that's wonderful. Chelsea Berler: That was definitely one thing I never ever had to do, but they had to pad each side of the bed just in case I had a seizure because they said, "This is fungal meningitis, that's pus," I'm like, this is blowing my mind right now. But no one's really telling us anything other than that, and with my Google searches, I'm like, "Okay, so if I have this meningitis, okay, we'll figure this out, whatever." Chelsea Berler: I got there, it was probably about 2:00 when we checked in, and we spent, of course, all day there, and we didn't hear back from the doctor. She's waiting on this pathology report, same with a neurologist. So we haven't heard anything other than they're giving me some steroids, they're just making me comfortable, they're helping with my headaches and my mom, and I just hung out there. Chelsea Berler: Finally, we took over a mask because we were like, "Oh, we can't even breathe through these things," and mom's like, "If you have it, I already have it because I've been with you." We just kinda chilled out and Mark, my husband arrived around 5:30, so he comes in, and we're still sitting there visiting and then, of course, my doctor comes in. I was surprised to see her because it was, gosh, it was late, it was after dinner time I think. I was thinking, "Well, I'll probably just see her in the morning because it's so late." Chelsea Berler: Well anyways, I think what really happened was she found out the results of my spinal tap, which was that the cancer spread to my brain and spinal fluid and that was causing these massive headaches. She, I think was, to be honest with you, heartbroken and I think it was hard for her to come visit us at the hospital because she came in and she normally is like all done up, and she's just amazing, and she had no makeup on. You could tell she had been crying. Chelsea Berler: She leaned over, and she had the mask on, and she said, "I'm taking this off because you don't have fungal meningitis. I'm pretty sure you don't have fungal meningitis, and I can't talk through it." She took off her mask, and she was explaining what they call LC to us, which is where the cancer spreads to your spinal and brain fluid. It was that moment where, of course, my husband had a million questions, and I'm sitting there like, "What is happening?" Chelsea Berler: My mom, she does a little laid on top of me, like a hen and just wanted to just lay on me and she was of course crying, and I was crying, and I wasn't really processing like what she was saying. The doctor was crying, and finally, Mark said to her, "Can we step outside?" Because I think he was just, I have so many questions, and I think he wanted to understand what was going on before they could finish talking to me about it. I told them to of course go out and talk about it, he and the doctor and so he did and kind of learned what this LC is and what to expect and what that means. Chelsea Berler: That was literally the first point where we were like, wow, like, so there's no option, this is terminal. We were shocked that especially given the news that we had just gotten. Dr. Bob: Yeah, a little incredible roller coaster that you had to be hanging onto. Chelsea Berler: Yeah. I mean and surgery was scheduled for that Friday, so we were actually going to have surgery that Friday. It literally happened like we just found out before that, and I think it's like this, the LC is like a two percent chance, super rare, super crazy. Again, you hear a herd of horses; you think they're all horses and there's one unicorn that's me that just has never really quite made sense through this whole process. Dr. Bob: Chelsea, that was just like six weeks ago? Chelsea Berler: Yeah, so my birthday was March 13th, I was in the hospital March 15th is when we found out. Yeah, I think. It was just recently. Dr. Bob: LC is the actual name for it, it's leptomeningeal carcinomatosis, and I think there's another name called neoplastic meningitis and essentially it's when tumor has gotten through that barrier, through the blood-brain barrier and it's around the brain and the different, the little sheets that cover the brain and the spinal cord. I imagined what they saw in that spinal tap was a lot of protein and a lot of things that didn't belong there and probably some cells, the cancer cells and that might've just really confused them so they couldn't quite figure out what to make of it at first. Dr. Bob: Wow. What's it? You went from like totally thrilled that all the struggle that you had gone through with the chemotherapy and all of that was worth it. You were now looking at the next phase which was a surgery, and you know feeling hopeful about having eaten this. Then a few days later you're given the news that it's terminal and there's no cure. Chelsea Berler: Yeah, it's crazy. It was really interesting and as I've been writing this book, reflecting on the whole process again, just like going through it, knowing that there was that here like we were all very much like a focus on that. There was never this like other option or other like that this could kill you. It was, of course, surprising, to say the least, but also it's one of those things that I think about too, and know that nothing is promised. Your life isn't promised and your days aren't promised, and no one said you're going to live to be 100 or 90 or whatever the case might be. Chelsea Berler: I think people assume, of course, we all assume we'll have a big long life, but the reality is, that's not the case. The more I thought about it, the more I thought I've had such an amazing life, I have done such amazing things. I got to live as long as I could, and I continued to, and I'm so thankful for that. I think that it's really opened my eyes even more so to just a life well lived and sharing that with people, knowing that your tomorrow is never promised and the next day isn't either. Chelsea Berler: For people that walk around thinking that they're going to live a long life, I hope they do but knowing that ... that's not the case, sometimes for people and it's not for me. So really reflecting on the time I still have left, it has been fun, to say the least in terms of just living each day, however, I want to live it and no restrictions right now. I have been eating a lot of pizza rolls, and that's been fun. Pop tarts, I bring it back to pop tart. Dr. Bob: I think it's good as they used to be. Chelsea Berler: Funny story is I thought to myself, what are some things that I remember as a child that I just love so much that I've refrained from, from so many years because I've eaten healthy because I wanted to be a really healthy person. Of course, when I was a teenager I ate all that junk food and I thought, there are these things that I really wanted to eat like lucky charms. Chelsea Berler: Then, of course, I wanted to get some pop tarts and Oreos and things like that. I was showing my husband, there are things that we're transitioning to him like how to order groceries online to make his life easier, so I've been showing him those types of things, and it's kind of dangerous because now that I'm on steroids too, [inaudible 00:38:09]. So I'm always ordering groceries. Dr. Bob: Do you have Uber Eats by you? Chelsea Berler: We do, but we have not used it, I should set that up. I ordered pop tarts, and I was so excited, and I sat down, and I opened the first one, and I started eating it. I had toasted the first one, and I was like, "Gosh, this doesn't near as good as I thought it was going to be," like I was really excited about it. And then I thought it was a little bit of a Debbie Downer; I was like, this I thought used to be so much better. Chelsea Berler: As I started eating them then I was like, "Okay, they're kind of delicious." Yeah, I've been doing that in divulging a bit in food, but you know it's funny because you think about those things and you refrain from so many things because you want to be healthier, to be better, to be good at it. I think that absolutely we should all be healthier and not be eating pop tarts. Dr. Bob: Every day at least. Chelsea Berler: Exactly, but I do think that, as humans, we need to enjoy the simple delegacies of life and not refrain from too much because I think there's so much happiness and little silly things like that, that I think can bring someone great joy just even in little morsel, even a little chocolate here and there, whatever. But it brings me back to those things that I think, gosh, I didn't, I have a pop tart if I wanted a pop tart. I think more people should probably have that mindset with things these days because again, you just don't know what could happen. I mean, you can go from one extreme to the next. Chelsea Berler: The other thing that I am so fortunate about is there are so many tragedies in life. There were people die suddenly and quickly, and you can't say goodbye, you can't prepare. They're just gone. I am so thankful that I have this time with my family, my close friends. I have been so enjoying being able to reconnect with people and share things with people and talk about memories and all of those things. Chelsea Berler: I'm also in that place of a great deal of peace, being able to have peace with people and have this time with the LC diagnosis. It can be weeks; it could potentially be months. We actually stopped treatment; we were doing spinal taps where we were doing chemo in my spine and then chemo pills. But none of that is proven to be effective, it could possibly be effective in terms of lengthening my life maybe a little bit, but it was actually causing a great deal of pain. Chelsea Berler: The spinal taps were really painful for me because I have a lot of inflammation. We were spending three out of five days at the hospital between doctors' appointments and the treatments. We decided to stop everything about a week ago just because it was just like, this is not how I want to spend my time. Dr. Bob: And that happens, I think it happens so frequently as people or they continue on this path because that's what's recommended and there's no other option, and this is sort of direct or directed down this path with uncertainty, there's a very uncertain benefit and likely not a great benefit, but what's definite is that you are giving up your time, the time that you have the precious time that you have with your family and your friends and the piece of just being able to stay in the environment that's comforting to you and to ... Dr. Bob: I honor you for making that decision, and I imagine that has given you some additional sense of peace of not being back in that world. Chelsea Berler: It's been good. My husband and I discussed it at great detail because we basically asked the question to the doctor if I continue to do these treatments, is there a greater than 50% chance that they're working or less than 50% chance they're working? She said, "Less than 50% chance," and she's like, "I'm not even sure they're doing anything," and because this LC is so rare that it's basically, she's basically saying, "Let's just try it and see if it extends your life," and I was just like, "Let's just stop." Dr. Bob: Let's just not, yeah. Chelsea Berler: She was really cool about it, she's been just amazing at like, "What do you guys want at this point?" I was so sick of taking so many pills and all of that that I was just like, I'm throwing in the towel. Especially, I mean if there were ... if she could prove to us that it was helping clearly I'd want to extend my life but of course not. I've noticed, daily I am declining just in little things like my legs aren't working as great as they should be working and stuff like that. Chelsea Berler: We started hospice this week, but mostly it's we decided to do that because I want to be as independent as possible in our home while I can. So getting the help that I need with walkers or things like that to be able to continue to get around as much as I can. Between my mom and my husband, of course, they're taking care of us or taking care of me, so I don't need the nurse and the CNA here or anything like that right now. Chelsea Berler: Being able to have their help just with this advice and stuff around the house has been really great. We started that process, which has been really amazing by the way, that kind of care. I think more than anything like just being able to decide how I want to spend today and whether that be, this interview or listening to podcasts or reading something or my husband has been taking me for drives, and that's been fun just to get out. Chelsea Berler: I get tired pretty quickly, but being able to just get out and get some sun on my face has been awesome but just choosing how I want to spend that time is really important I think for anyone probably in this situation. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I imagine your husband has working less, kind of, at this point, spending more time with you. Chelsea Berler: Actually, when we found out in September of my diagnosis he stopped traveling completely, he has just been working from home, and he works with such an amazing company that has just been supporting him and like you do whatever you need to do, work from home, whatever. So he's actually been home full time, and that's been amazing, and we've both been trying to ... I own my company, and so I've been working as much as I can, we're working on transitioning it to someone that's been with me for seven years. Chelsea Berler: That is my heart, and he's taking over my company, and I'm going to be running it going forward in that has been so amazing, so I've been helping with that and just doing as much as I can during the day to get him set. When all that's good and finished, he's good to go. My husband's been trying to live, a bit of a normal life I guess, if you will, just I'm encouraging him to do a little bit of work in the morning, and while we can, I think that it's good to feel human in that way. Chelsea Berler: But we've been spending a lot of really great quality time together where we talk about the best conversations that we've just never had to talk about before, like death and dying. About an afterlife, about spirituality and it's, of course, deepened our relationship together and having those conversations, things that some people probably have them I'd assume, but I guess we just had never talked a lot about it. Chelsea Berler: He's older than I am and so in my head I always thought that I would be his caregiver and take care of him and of course everything's changed, and so now I'm worried about leaving him because there's so many things he doesn't know about, just household stuff and add order groceries and dog food that we have on auto pay, those kinds of things that I've been working really hard to make sure he is set because I worry about him because he hasn't had to really manage those things. Dr. Bob: That's really sweet of you, you worried about him. Chelsea Berler: I always thought in my head that, I love being a caregiver for and I'm a very compassionate person, and so I just always like to take care of people, of other people, and I never thought that it would be people taking care of me, I guess. It's been a little bit hard to get used to that, but he has done an amazing job. I can't imagine going through something like this with anyone else, and it's really interesting how you look at a relationship when something like this happens and how things changed in such a dramatic way and how you're cared for and how amazing he's been as a husband all these years that we've been together. But just how he has to take care of a dying wife now. Chelsea Berler: He has just been so phenomenal and amazing, I can't imagine doing it with anyone else. So one thing that was really important to me when I first started this process was when I was going into this chemo room is one thing that was super shocking was, there was a lot of people that didn't have insurance, almost everyone. There was a lot of people that didn't have anyone with them. There were a lot of people that didn't have any kind of supplies like I had, meaning when I first found out I had cancer, I had this outpouring of love and support of people sending me things like lotions and beanies and bath soaps and like all these healing things to get me through. Like, "Oh my gosh, my friend or family member just found out they have cancer, like what can I do?" Chelsea Berler: I was getting all of this stuff, and it was so much stuff that it was great, it was like books and coloring books and things to pass the time because when you go to chemo you're there like almost six hours sometimes just not only waiting for your drugs but then getting your drugs and it like it's just such a process. I felt like I would walk in there with, Mark would come with me every single time, he sits with me the whole time. I would come in with a bag of this stuff that I could use playing cards and like I said, books and coloring books and things that would just help me get through this process. Chelsea Berler: As I was looking around, I was heartbroken because no one ... like I literally, I felt like I was the only one that had it, it really did, and it broke my heart because how many people a day are going through this and having to sit there every day. I thought to myself, there's got to be something that I could do to help these people. I thought, I'm going to take all this stuff that was given to me that I had extras of which was a ton, and I'm just going to bring it all in here and ask the nurses if I can just put it on this back shelf and anyone can have it, whatever they want. Chelsea Berler: I asked him, and I said, "Great, absolutely bring it in," and so I literally just dumped out a ton of stuff that I had extra stuff. The end of that day it was all gone, everything that in like the women that are in there, of course, are bald, and some of them didn't have beanies and some of them, you know, I just don't have anything. Chelsea Berler: Then it got me thinking, like there are all these really great nonprofits that help raise money for research and help do this or that within the cancer funding foundations, but there isn't that I know of a place where you can go where you can get support meaning these types of things that help you pass the time, and there isn't a place where you can do it for free. I mean, you have to buy it, or someone is going to buy it for you. Chelsea Berler: I thought, I am going to start a nonprofit where it'll be based on donation, and I'm going to put together bags of things, I'm going to curate them based off of what I used. Every single thing in what we're calling a blue bag because blue is, I feel like more adequate than pink, it is stuff that I have personally used. Like things like oatmeal that it was really all that I could eat for a while, ginger candies helped with nausea, the coloring books, the reading books, the warm socks, the lotions, the bath soaps, all of those things that I personally use that I know used, that I used well. Chelsea Berler: I put these bags together, and I thought, I don't know how this is going to go. I don't know if people will understand it but I'm going to start this blue big movement, and I am going to allow people to request them if they want to request them on their own, and like for themselves if they're going through cancer treatment, or someone can request for them, and we'll ship them. Because my business is web design, we were able to put up a website. I was able to curate these products, design a bag that it's really amazing. Chelsea Berler: I was like, "Okay, we're gonna do this, we're going to police together," and the donations just started coming in. I think we're probably at about $50,000 that we've raised, and that's not even corporate donations, that's literally personal community people we've known like it's been amazing. We've been able to ship these blue bags all around the world, they've gone to the UK, they've gone to the US. Chelsea Berler: We just shipped some time to Honolulu, there's a map that for bell.org where you can see where the blue bags have gone so far. It's been amazing, and it's also very sad because there are so many people that are going through this process that need this kind of support and we get to ship these out for free, and it is awesome. Chelsea Berler: What we're doing right now as we're transitioning the foundation, so my husband is going to run it when I'm gone, and I have a really great group of people here that friends and family that they help curate and put these blue bags together every month. What we try and do is do 50 at a time, we probably will start doing 100 at a time because it's going so well. It's a lot of work and so what we have to do right now is, we make enough, and then people request them on the website and then you have to take the request form down when we run out so we can make more. We're kind of trying to get into the rhythm of that. It's been amazing; it's been so awesome. Dr. Bob: That is incredible. I mean, with all the other things that you've got going on in your life to have been to have the wherewithal. The desire to create something to help other people just truly speaks to the depth of who you are. So that's incredible, so there'll be a link on our website, integratedmdcare.com/newsite1 where people can get access to this podcast. We'll also have a link to bell.org so that they can go in and get on and see how they can contribute or request a bag for someone who they know that would benefit from it. That is just, wow, Chelsea, you're awesome, and it does sound like you have lived about three lifetimes and your short 30, 40 years. Chelsea Berler: I know, it's like a cat, right? Dr. Bob: I mean you've shared a lot of obviously from some very, very deep and personal, intimate things and you'd given, I know some of your wisdom that that's come to you and through you, anything that you feel is just kind of needing to bubble out before we say for this particular episode? Chelsea Berler: I think more than anything I appreciate you taking the time and understanding why that maybe this would be helpful for others to include in your podcast. Just having the being one that's going through the dying process and being at peace with it and being in a good place with it, I think is really great. I think that part of that is just knowing that life is short and I hope that people will really take tune to know that life, live a little harder, live a little bigger, live a little more fierce, and eat a pop tart if you want to eat a pop tart. Chelsea Berler: I think those are all really important pieces to living a good life and not worrying so much about saving all your money and maybe take more trips and have more memories, and maybe less things and more good stuff that you can add to your life that will just add to those sweet memories that you can keep a hold of. I think all that's really important. Just as a takeaway for it, for anyone that thinks they have a long life to live, which I hope they do. I hope they live each day as if it were their last because I think that that's important. Dr. Bob: No doubt. Awesome. Well, thank you again, and I'm so glad that we're reconnected, and I'm hoping that we can use the time that you have left to continue to add value and stay connected and promote your book and the nonprofit, and you're amazing. I knew you were amazing before. Now I see an entirely a whole other realm of amazing in you. So thank you for being you and for sharing you. Chelsea Berler: Thank you. I appreciate it very much. I adore and love you and your work, and I think that what you do is so important. So thank you for that.
Hansa Bergwall is the creator of a new app called "WeCroak". Out of his own personal meditation practice, he determined that death contemplation could be beneficial, not just for him, but for many people. Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Contact You can download the app from your iPhone or Android device. You can also visit Hansa's website to learn more and download his app. WeCroak website Transcript Dr. Bob: So, Hansa, I'm totally curious about this. What prompted you to put an app out there that is going to notify people several times a day to think about death? What was the impetus for that? It's fascinating to me. How did that all come about? Hansa Bergwall: So I'm a daily meditator and have been for a while now. And regular death contemplation is actually a really millennia old part of most serious meditation practices. So that's how I first got ... I learned about some of these ideas. And some of them are pretty intense, much more intense than what I'm doing, meditating in [inaudible 00:01:19] grounds, where bodies decompose as a way of laying them to rest, to know about your impermanent nature. Stuff that would be hard to do today living in New York City. Hansa Bergwall: And then I came across the Bhutanese formulation of the practice that was, one, recommended for everyone and just really simple. It was just think about it five times a day that you're impermanent, that one day you will die. And you must do that in order to be a happy person. Immediately, it appealed to me as the kind of death contemplation that I wanted to add as a compliment to my meditation practice. So I just tried to do it myself. I thought, oh, this will be easy. I'll just think about it five times a day. And what I found was it was actually really hard. We have this pretty stubborn cognitive bias that we don't want to think about mortality all that often and it's hard to do, so I would get through my day and get to the end of the day and realize I hadn't done it even once. Hansa Bergwall: So that was when the idea of something to remind me came about and the idea of WeCroak, the app, which sort of fell into my head as a fully formed idea that honestly I never thought would go anywhere 'cause I'm not a coder and had no way of making it a reality until Ian Thomas, my cofounder, happened to rent my extra room on AirBnB and we got to talking one night and I basically told him/pitched him my idea for WeCroak and he wanted it on his phone, too. He never thought it would go anywhere. And we made it together for the next couple of months, so it happened really quickly and really fortuitously, organically out of me trying to do something that I thought would help. Dr. Bob: That's crazy. So if Ian hadn't rented your room, there's probably a pretty good chance that this never would've come to fruition, right? Were you going to go out and seek an app developer? Had you gotten to that point? Hansa Bergwall: I had. I made a couple of inquiries, and it was going to cost me $10,000 or something like that if I wanted to develop this on my own. And I didn't have that kind of money sitting around, first of all. And, second of all, sounded like a lot of money to spend on something that I was quite skeptical would be broadly popular. So really we made this kind of as almost ... We were talking about it when we started as it was like an art project or something that we really wanted for ourselves, maybe to share with our friends, and we wanted it in the world. That was how we went about it. Dr. Bob: Great. Without any huge expectations or goals that would potentially disappoint you if you didn't achieve them. That's usually the best way to start something. Hansa Bergwall: Yeah, and what it allowed us to do is we stuck to our guns a little bit, the Bhutanese folk saying is five times a day. So we had a lot of people asking, like, oh, shouldn't you toggle it, so people only want one? We're like, but that's not the recommendation. We're going to do this tradition. We're going to do it right. So because we have our day jobs and other ways of making money, we could really make it be something that we thought would be a real mindfulness tool. Dr. Bob: Great. So when did it actually become available? When did you complete the development process and put it up there for people to download? Hansa Bergwall: So I first had it on my phone in August of 2017, and it started right away reminding me five times a day that I'm going to die with a quote that I had picked out. And it was really fun. It was this creation that we had done. There had never been anything like it before. For the first few months, it was just a few of our friends and us. I think there were 80 people on it tops as of a few months later, kind of working with it and enjoying it. And then I do communication and PR for a living, and so I had reached out to just a couple people about the idea, and the Atlantic magazine covered it in December, and that was when it really started to take off in the world, and it has to a huge degree since then, beyond our wildest expectations. Dr. Bob: That's awesome. So how many downloads? I'm sure you're able to track that. How many people have downloaded it at this point? Hansa Bergwall: Yeah, so as of a couple of weeks ago, we just crossed our 40,000th download. Dr. Bob: Wow! Hansa Bergwall: So that means that 40,000 people around the world have elected to pay 99 cents for an app to remind them that they're going to die five times a day and we estimate we're going to deliver our seven millionth reminder on May 7th. There's been a lot of these little reminders going out, interrupting people's days. They happen at randomized times, and that has been the journey since December. It touched a nerve somehow. [inaudible 00:06:53] not the only people that wanted these reminders, wanted to remember that life is precious and time is limited. Dr. Bob: Have you gotten feedback from people? Have you had people who have shared any of what's come up for them or any interesting stories that have come out? Hansa Bergwall: Yeah, of course. It's a strange thing because we know these reminders are going out, seven million of them, and mostly it's like we have no idea how these are affecting people. Except when you hear back from people every once in a while. A very common response is that it helps pull people back to what's important, gives them a little bit of perspective and they use that for everything from getting off addictive social media or technology, to getting out of anger or having better relationships just by not sweating the small stuff as much, to seize the day kind of moments of, hey, I'm just gonna go do this thing I wanted to do because otherwise I may not do it in my life and I want to. Hansa Bergwall: So that's the most common response is people just using reminders to live a little bit better. And then there's this other category of people using it in much more serious positions and those, to be honest, moved me to tears a few times where I'll hear from people who are using it to help them in the grieving process for this woman said her son had passed away, and somehow it was helping. Another woman reached out to say she was having a hard time dealing with a mother dying of dementia and that it was helping her appreciate the time that they did have at the capability that they did, rather than just get into the poor me and my life kind of story. Hansa Bergwall: Just last week I had a young man reach out of the blue to tell me he'd been using it and mourning the death of 20 friends to the opioid epidemic over the last year. It gets out there in the world, and you realize that this kind of information is pretty powerful in that it's useful whether you're just trying to live a little bit better or if you're really facing some of life's hardest moments. Dr. Bob: Such a simple, simple concept to imagine having that kind of impact. Are you getting a sense that it's the reminders that are making more of an impact or the quotes that people are reading and that are touching them? What are your thoughts on that? Or what are you hearing? Hansa Bergwall: I think it's the whole thing. First, we're doing the Bhutanese formulation of just think about it often. Five times a day. That alone is powerful enough if that was all it did. And then the quote part of it is we live in a society where there's a tremendous amount of noise, distraction, technology, addiction, screens, everywhere that keep us from being really present where we are often. So in order to keep it fresh and keep it interesting, we introduced the quotes as well as the randomization of the timing so that it would interrupt you at times you couldn't predict. Kind of like the idea of how an eight ball, it only has maybe eight answers, and yet it can be interesting for quite a long time just because of the randomness of you don't know which one you're going to get. Hansa Bergwall: So that aspect keeps people engaged, on their toes, where just the many coincidences of life, there are those moments where the randomness of the time and the randomness of the quotes selected feels like it's speaking directly to that moment because we have a database of quotes. They're all worth looking at I think, but people never know what kind of quote they're going to get. We have quotes from people writing from the palliative care community or poets or philosophers or meditation teachers or even comedians. So people really don't know are they going to get a funny quote, are they going to get a quote about what it's like at the end of life. So that aspect of surprise I think keeps people from just glazing over and tuning out as quickly as they otherwise might. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I think that's an interesting aspect of it as well, the randomness, the just being open and receptive to receiving something that is kind of unexpected. And it probably says something about each of the people who are willing to pay the 99 cents and download the app is that they are looking for, I guess, input from the universe that could be valuable. My alert went off not long ago and the quote that came up this morning was, "If a man has not discovered something that he dies for, he isn't fit to live." And you know who that was? Hansa Bergwall: I think it's Martin Luther King. Dr. Bob: Exactly, yeah. Hansa Bergwall: Jr, yeah. I do know my quotes. I have a lot of them in there. Dr. Bob: This was a test, and you passed it, but I imagine ... How long will it go before I would see that quote again? Is it months? Hansa Bergwall: Right. Just to give you a little backdoor to the programming stuff. So every time it selects a quote at random from a database of about 400, we're updating to about 500 very soon. And you can get any random quote within that database at any time. However, we make it so that you don't get a repeat within, I think, it's a two week period right now, and I might have to double check that for you, but it's a little while. You can see it again in just a couple weeks if, by luck, that's the one that it selects, but there might be others that you haven't seen at all. We try to keep it so that you can't predict, that you're just on a loop or something like that. Sometimes you might get one every couple weeks just because that's what the ghost in the machine wants to give you, to really put that one in your face. Other times there'll be one that you just haven't gotten because of that randomness. Dr. Bob: Because of randomness. And that's part of the beauty of it. It reminds us of the random nature of life. So it's achieving two things. It's reminding us of our mortality and that we need to be looking at this day as something very special to be grateful for or this hour or this moment. And it also reminds us that, man, things are just random, and as much as we might want to control and predict, that's not really the way it works. Hansa Bergwall: Yeah, we like to say that the reminders can happen any time, just like death. Dr. Bob: Yeah, in my experience, I was an ER doc for 20 plus years, and very early on in my career, I became very clear about just how random life is. I like to say that the vast majority of the people who ended up in the ER that day woke up that morning not expecting that that's how their day was going to go and that's where they were going to end up. It was great life lessons early on for me. And now I'm at the other side of it taking care of people who are at the very end of their life, which is also an incredible classroom for me to be in. So how has this affected your life? What's different now in your life than it was in August when you started this project? Aside from being more aware of the fragility and randomness and that there are people out there who are interested in this. Any other major differences or new trajectories? Hansa Bergwall: Yeah, there are a lot actually. I would say that the wonderful thing about thinking of death often is that it's always true and it's amazing how few things that we know for sure are true in this world that we can really hang a hat on, but this is one. That our time's limited by an unknown amount. We might get the full natural human life cycle or might be much shorter. We don't know. Any decision we make every day, if we're not keeping that close, we're not living on true ground. That makes a big difference, to live life on ground that's more real. I think I'm making better decisions on a day to day basis in a number of areas and there are particular qualities that people have used death contemplation to nurture for a long time that I'm noticing coming up in my own life. I'll give you an example of some things that I've learned. Hansa Bergwall: One is courage, just the courage to do what I want to do, talk about what I want to talk to, make a big move that I want. It's one of those elusive things. Sometimes I think even having an awkward conversation or calling someone out on something that hurt you, or something can feel like an insurmountable burden, but death contemplation kind of gets you there. And I've learned since that samurai used to do daily meditation on all the horrible ways you could die on a battlefield because they knew to truly be the best on a real battlefield, which fighting on true terms meant that you could die any number of ways at any time no matter how good you are and accepting what a battlefield is and that you could die at any time. And by accepting that, you can really find the courage to do what you needed to do. So that's an extreme case, of course, but I'm noticing that I have more courage to just face the daily things that come at me in life. Dr. Bob: But what about the small battles? Hansa Bergwall: The small battles. Battlefields are not part of my life, but everyone has fear to a certain extent, and the courage to get through it is important. Just the sense of appreciation and thankfulness of I'll get a reminder, and I'm walking down the street, and I realize, oh, I'm walking really fast. I think I'm an in a habitual hurry. I'm actually not late for any appointment or anything. Maybe I'll slow down. And it's spring here in New York, and that happened to me just the other day and all the sudden I'm noticing daffodils by the side of the road and birdsong and all the sudden my life is filled with this richness that I was about to just habitually rush through. Hansa Bergwall: And there are others as well. Compassion, to a certain extent. When you are constantly remembering that you are going to die and that is the nature of life, and some misfortune follow someone that you know or something like that, you feel it in the heart a little faster than I did before at least. So all these things that I'm now learning about that people have used, these kinds of practices to nurture, slowly, bit by bit, start to happen in your own life. So I'm more a proponent of this kind of practice than when I started. I think it makes a big material difference in my life and I'm still discovering to all the possibilities of how that's true. Hansa Bergwall: And I think it's a great compliment to things like yoga or meditation practice or these other kinds of things, which are great things to do. I do them. And I think it compliments it because it's that grounded, feet on the ground, real-world kind of stuff, rather than getting off into, say, positive thinking or these things that can maybe take us a little bit away from the truth, which I think can be problematic. Dr. Bob: Yeah, when you contemplate truths, there really is no greater or more concrete truth than I'm going to die. There are no gradients. We don't know how, when, where, but that fact and, like you said earlier, alluded to, there are two absolute truths in life. That we're going to be born, that we were born. We wouldn't be here unless we were. And that we're going to die. And everything else really is kind of up for grabs. They used to say taxes, but we know that that's not necessarily true. So I like that. So, for you, the things that have really become more relevant or solidified in your life are the sense of courage, a sense of gratitude and appreciation in the moment and then compassion, which, if people ... For 99 cents, if people get that without a whole lot of other effort involved other than looking at your phone or device a few times a day, that's a pretty sweet deal. Hansa Bergwall: Yeah, and one thing we're proud of is, because we didn't make this like some of the big tech firms, to make money off of people's attention 'cause it's free with advertising or this or that, we're actually really proud that even though people are getting five notifications a day, even our people who are opening it all the time are spending less than a minute in the app per day. They just read the quote. We're having a pretty big effect for a very small Hansa Bergwall: amount of time. We're really proud of that because there's just so many things that can eat up our precious time, which is or limited life when you really think about it. The average person checks their smartphone 85 times per day, and I think the latest numbers that I heard were people were spending as much as four hours on their mobile devices and computers. Just on their mobile devices, not even computers like that, per day. You can leave 24-hour news on all the time. So there are all these things that can take up so much of your attention all the time, and we can get lost in them, so I'm kinda proud how it just grabs your attention and then lets it go immediately so that you can decide what you want to do with that information. Hansa Bergwall: There are other apps out there that maybe remind you to breathe or notice that you're on social media and like, hey, do you want to stop? To me, that would feel like nagging. I wouldn't tolerate it. Dr. Bob: Yeah, little judgmental. Hansa Bergwall: Yeah, and this is just telling something that's true, and then it's up to you, whoever you are, each person, to decide what you want to do in that moment. Whether to pat yourself on the back, you're doing exactly what you want to be doing, or switch course. Dr. Bob: I love it. I love the simplicity of it and that everybody can take what they choose from it. Are you developing anything else or are you ... Is this going to be leapfrogging you into other realms around this space or are you kinda just going about your other business and allowing this to just be? Hansa Bergwall: This is all so new right now. It's only been a few months that this has been in the world and people such as yourself have wanted to talk to me on such deep and important issues, so I'm still just enjoying the conversation started with this first thing. We have some ideas that are sort of in a square one idea phase right now of ways we could create other fun things for people to play within the mindfulness space, but right now it's a really worthwhile and passion project that I enjoy spending time on. Because of the one time 99 cents download fee, it makes just enough to support the time that I spent on it so that I can easily do it and then the rest ... So far on this project, we like having other sources of income so that this can be, I think, what's really useful as opposed to what will sell really well. Dr. Bob: Yeah, I get it. Well, good for you. I'm excited. Just being part of this space now, you can see that there's so much interest, there's so much need for people to move away from fear and move towards this openness, acceptance, and be part of this broad conversation. So I applaud you for putting it out there and having the courage to ... Even though it started out as more of just a fun project, I think what you've put into the world is meaningful, and you should feel proud ... Or not proud necessarily, but just feel really great about knowing that your efforts are bringing some peace and greater understanding and comfort to people potentially all over the world. Good on you. Hansa Bergwall: Thank you. And I also wanna say that some of the most popular quotes, in terms of people taking screenshots of them so that they can look at them later or share them, are from people writing from the palliative care perspective about common things that people say on their death beds or this conversation of what it's really like to be near the end. I think these perspectives and these conversations are really valuable to people and I'm just honored to pick up on some of the conversations people like yourself are having and get them to more people because people are really responding to them and they're really important. And I've learned a lot from listening to people like you and reading and part of this has been like, wow, there's some amazing thinking and just life philosophy coming out of these people giving care to end of life. Dr. Bob: I really appreciate your time. I know you're busy with your work and your contemplation and anybody who is interested, the app store is waiting for you and just go ahead and search for WeCroak, right? That's pretty much as simple as that. Hansa Bergwall: Yeah, WeCroak. One word. It'll pop up, it's the strawberry frog. Enjoy. Dr. Bob: So, Hansa, thank you so much for your time. You can also access, we'll have a link to this on the Integrated MD Care website. Thank you for your time. Look forward to any future endeavors, and I'm happy to have you as part of this tribe of people that's trying to move the conversation forward. Hansa Bergwall: Yeah, thank you so much.
Please Note: This was recorded as a Facebook Live earlier this year prior to the recent ruling to overturn the California End of Life Options Act 2015 by Riverside County Superior Court Judge. In response, California Attorney General Xavier Becerra filed an emergency appeal seeking a stay of Superior Court Judge Daniel Ottolia's ruling that invalidated the less than two-year-old medical aid-in-dying law. "It is important to note the ruling did not invalidate the law or the court would have said so explicitly in its order, so the law remains in effect until further notice," said John C. Kappos, a partner in the O'Melveny law firm representing Compassion & Choices. If this law and the right to die with dignity is important to you, we urge you to learn more from Compassion and Choices the organization that helped get the law passed. Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Need more information? Contact Dr. Bob for a free consultation. Transcript Dr. Bob: On this episode, Elizabeth Semenova and I speak very frankly about what it's like to support people through Medical Aid and Dying. We explain the process; we discuss who asks for this kind of support and why there are still so many barriers. This was originally captured as a Facebook Live and repurposed as a podcast because this information is so vitally important. Please share the podcast with everyone and anyone you feel would benefit from listening. Thank you. Dr. Bob: I'm going to do a little bit of introduction for myself, if you're watching this and you have been on the integrated MD Care site, you probably know a bit about me. I've been a physician for 25/ 30 years, somewhere in that range. Over the past several years I've been focusing on providing care for people who are dealing with complex illnesses, the challenges of aging, the challenges of dying. During these few years, I've discovered a lot of gaps in the health care system that cause a lot of challenges for people. Dr. Bob: We developed a medical practice to try to address those big challenges in those big gaps that we've encountered. It's been really remarkable to be able to do medical care in a way that is truly sensitive to what people are really looking for and what their families are looking for that is not constrained and limited to what the medical system will allow. It's not constrained by what Medicare will pay, what insurance will pay. We allow people to access us completely and fully and we are there to support them in a very holistic way with medical physician care, nursing care, social working care and then a whole team of therapists. Massage therapists, music therapists, acupuncturists, nutritionists. Dr. Bob: So that has been really fascinating and phenomenal. Elizabeth came along in the last several months. Really, she was drawn primarily to the true end of life care that we deliver and has been truly surprised how beautifully we are able to care for people who aren't necessarily dying as well. Elizabeth: Absolutely, yeah. Dr. Bob: So we can talk about all the different aspects of that, but we are here today to really talk about Medical Aid and Dying. Because, shortly after we started this practice, back in January 2016 California became one of the few states in the United States that does allow physician-assisted death. Dr. Bob: It allows what is also known as Death with Dignity, Medical Aid in Dying. The California End of Life Option Act passed in June 2016. At that point, a person with a terminal illness, an adult who is competent, had the ability to request a prescription of medicine from their physician, from a physician. That if taken, would allow them to have a very peaceful, dignified death at a place and time of their choosing. Since June 2016 we have become essentially experts and kind of the go-to team in San Diego for sure and actually throughout a good portion of Southern California because other physicians are reluctant to participate or because the systems that the patients are in make it very difficult or impossible for them to take advantage of this law. There is a lot of confusion about it. It's a very complex, emotionally charged issue. We as a team, Elizabeth and I, along with other members of our team have taken it upon ourselves to become true experts and guides so that people can get taken care of in a way that is most meaningful and sensitive. In a way that allows them to be in control and determine the course of their life leading up to their death and how they are going to die. That's why we are here. We want to educate; we want to inform, we want people to not be afraid of the unknowns. We want to dispel the myths. I'm passionate about that. We work together, and I think we do a very good job as a team, of supporting patients and families. I'd like to have Elizabeth share a little about why this is so important to her and then we are going to get into some more of the specifics about what's actually taking place, the requirements, how the process works and if there are questions people have we are going to answer those as well. We are going to go for about 20/ 25 minutes, and if it turns out that we don't get through enough of our material then we will have another session, but we don't want to make this too long. We want to make it concise, meaningful and impactful. Elizabeth: Okay. Dr. Bob: All right. Elizabeth: Okay. I started as a hospice social worker, and I became an advocate for Aid and Dying because I learned about the law. Learned that there were not a lot of options, policies, procedures in place, in Southern California when I started working in hospice for people to take advantage of and participate in the End of Life Option Act. Elizabeth: There were very, very, very few resources. There were no phone numbers to call of people who would answer questions. There were no experts who, well not no experts, who thoroughly understood the law but it was very hard to access that information. Elizabeth: I did my best to find it and became connected with some groups and some individuals who were experienced with and understood the law and became really passionate about pursuing advocacy and allowing as many people to have access to that information as possible. I started working on sharing that information and being a resource and learning everything that I could so that other people could have that. How I became connected with Integrated MD care and with you, I found you as a resource for another client, and we started having conversations, and I learned that it was possible to be supportive of people through this process through the work you were doing and I took the opportunity to become a part of it. We have done a lot to support a lot of people, and it's become a really special part of our work and my life. Dr. Bob: Why is it so important to you? Why is it so important to you for people to have access and the information? Elizabeth: I really believe that every life can only be best lived if you know all of the options that you have available to you. So how can you make choices without information? Right? So when it comes to something like this which is a life and death situation, quite literally, there are limited resources for people to make informed choices. What could possibly be more important than having access to information about what your legal rights are to how you live and die? With California only having begun this process of Aid and Dying. Exploring different perspectives and legal options and philosophical positions on the subject, I think it's really important to open that conversation and to allow people who support it as well as people who are against it to have those conversations and to explore how they feel about it and why. Then of course for the people who want to participate, who want information, resources, support in the process they have every legal right to it, in my opinion, they have every moral right to it and if there are no other people who are willing to support them I feel it is my duty to do that. Dr. Bob: Awesome. And you do it well. Elizabeth: Thank you. Dr. Bob: Yeah it's kind of crazy to think we have this legal process in place. People have spoken up and said, we want to have access to this, and we believe it's the right thing. Despite the fact that we have a law in place that allows it, it was so difficult, and it's still is to some degree, but especially in the beginning, it was like a vast wasteland. If somebody wanted to find out how to access this process, no one could really give them adequate information. There were organizations that would tell them what the process is and how it happens but there was no one stepping up to say 'I'll support you.' There were no physicians, and there was no one who was willing to give the name of a physician who was willing. It was very frustrating in the beginning of this process, in the first, I would say, the first year and a half. Still, to some degree, getting the right information, getting put in touch with those who will support it is difficult or impossible. Even some of the hospital systems that do support Medical Aid and Dying their process is very laborious, and there are so many steps that people have to go through that in many cases they can't get through it all. Our practice we are filling a need. Our whole purpose in being is to fill the gaps in health care that cause people to struggle. One of my mantras is 'Death is inevitable, suffering is not.' Right. We are all going to die, but death does not have to be terribly painful or a struggle. It can be a beautiful, peaceful, transformative process. We've been involved in enough End of Life scenarios that I can say that with great confidence that given the right approach, the right information, the right guidance, the right support it can always be a comfortable and essentially beautiful process. Elizabeth: Something that is important too also is to have people who have experience with these processes these struggles that people have. Not just anyone can make it an easy process. Not just anyone can make it a smooth process. You have to have it those obstacles you have experienced what the difficulties are and where the glitches are and in order to be able to fill those gaps you have to know where they are. Dr. Bob: Right. Elizabeth: Sometimes that comes from just falling into the hole and climbing out which is something we have experienced a few times. Dr. Bob: Having been through it enough times to... and of course we will come across- Elizabeth: More... Dr. Bob: Additional obstacles but we'll help...and that doesn't just apply to the Medical Aid and Dying it applies to every aspect of health care, which of course, becomes more complex and treacherous as people's health becomes more complicated and their conditions become more dire, and their needs increase. Hospice, yes it's a wonderful concept, and it's a wonderful benefit, but in many cases, it's not enough. Palliative Care, in theory, great concept, we need more Palliative Care physicians and teams and that kind of an approach, but in many cases, it's not enough. What we are trying to do is figure out how to be enough. How people can get enough in every scenario. We are specifically here talking about Medical Aid and Dying. In California, the actual law is called The End of Life Option Act. It was actually signed into law by Governor Brown in October 2015, and it became effective June 9th, 2016. I'll note that just yesterday the Governor of Hawaii signed the bill to make Medical Aid and Dying legal in Hawaii. The actual process will begin January 1st, 2019. There is a period of time, like there was in California, a waiting period, while they're getting all the processes in place and the legal issues dealt with. Elizabeth: Which you would think, that would be the time frame that health care intuitions would establish policies, would determine what they were going to do and how they were going to help. Dr. Bob: One would think. Elizabeth: You would think. Dr. Bob: Didn't happen here. Elizabeth: That didn't happen here. Dr. Bob: So maybe Hawaii will learn from what happened in California recently when all of a sudden June 9th comes, and still nobody knows what to do. What we are becoming actually, is a resource for people throughout California. Because we have been through this so many times now and we have such experience, we know where the obstacles are, we know where this landscape can be a bit treacherous. But, if you understand how to navigate it doesn't have to be. Elizabeth: We have become a resource not just for individuals who are interested in participating or who want to find out if they qualify but for other healthcare institutions who are trying to figure out how best to support their patients and their loved ones. TO give them without the experience that they need without having the experience of knowing what this looks like. Dr. Bob: Yup. Training hospice agencies. Training medical groups. At the heart of it, we just want to make sure that people get what they deserve, what they need and what they deserve and what is their legal right. If we know that there is somebody who can have an easier more supported, more peaceful death, we understand how incredibly valuable that is, not just for the patient but for the family. For the loved ones that are going to go on. So let's get into some of the meat of this. I'm going to ask you; we can kind of trade-off. Elizabeth: Okay. Dr. Bob: I'll ask you a question. Elizabeth: Okay. Dr. Bob: You ask me a question. Elizabeth: Okay. Dr. Bob: All right. If you don't know the answer, I'd be very surprised. In general who requests General Aid and Dying? Elizabeth: A lot of the calls we get are from people who qualify. So I don't know if you wanna go over the qualifications... Dr. Bob: We will. Elizabeth: Okay. Dr. Bob: That's the next question. Who is eligible. Elizabeth: Sorry. A lot of the people who call are individuals who are looking to see if they qualify and want to know what the process is. There are people who are family members of ill and struggling individuals, who wanna support them in getting the resources they might need. There are some people who just want the information. There are some people who desperately need immediate support and attention. Dr. Bob: Do you find, cause you get a lot of these calls initially, do you find that it's more often the patient looking for the information or is it usually a family member? Elizabeth: It's 50/50. Dr. Bob: Oh 50/50. Elizabeth: I think it depends a lot on where the patient is in the process and how supportive the family members are. Some people have extremely supportive family members who are willing to make all the phone calls and find all the resources and put in all the legwork. Some people don't, and they end up on their own trying to figure out what to do and how to do it. There are some people who are too sick to put in the energy to make 15 phone calls and talk to 15 different doctor's offices to find out what the process is. A lot of people start looking for information and hit wall, after wall, after wall. They don't even get to have a conversation about what this could look like, much less find someone who is willing to support them in it. Dr. Bob: Great, thank you. So who is eligible? Who does this law apply to? That's pretty straightforward, at least in appearance. An adult 18 or older. A resident of California. Who is competent to make decisions. Has a terminal illness. Is able to request, from an attending physician, the medication that if taken, will end their life. Pretty much 100% of the time. The individual has to make two requests, face to face with the attending physician and those requests need to be at least 15 days apart. If somebody makes an initial request to meet and I determine that they are a resident of California, they are an adult, they are competent, and they have a medical condition that is deemed terminal (I'll talk more about what that means) if I see them on the 1st, the 2nd request can happen on the 16th. It can't happen any sooner. The law requires a 15 day waiting period. That can be a challenge for some people, and we will talk a bit about that as well. In addition to the two requests of the attending physician, the person needs to have a consulting physician who concurs that they have a terminal illness and that they are competent to make decisions and the consulting physician meets with them, makes a determination and signs a form. The patient also signs a written request form that is essentially a written version of the verbal request and they sign that and have two people witness it. That's the process. Once that's completed, the attending physician can submit a prescription if the patient requests it at that time to the pharmacy. Certain pharmacies are willing to provide these medications, and many aren't. But, the physician submits the prescription to the pharmacy, and when the patient wants to have the prescription filled, they request that the pharmacy fill it and the pharmacy will make arrangements to have it delivered to the patient. The prescription can stay at the pharmacy for a period of time without getting filled, or it can be filled and be brought to the patient, and at that point, the patient can choose to take it or not. The patient needs to be able to ingest it on their own. They have to be able to drink the medication, it's mixed into a liquid form. They need to be able to drink five to six ounces of liquid, and it can be through a glass or through a straw. If the patient can't swallow, but they have a tube-like either a gastric tube or a feeding tube as long as they can push the medication through the tube, then they are eligible. The law states that no one can forcibly make the patient take it. They have to be doing it on their own volition, willingly. Okay. So, that's pretty much the process. Is there anything that I left out? What is a terminal illness? That is a question that is often asked. For this purpose, a terminal illness is a condition that is likely or will likely end that person's life in six months if the condition runs its natural course. Most of the patients that we see requesting Medical Aid and Dying have cancer. They have cancer that is considered terminal. Meaning there is no cure any longer. It's either metastasized, or it involves structures that are so critical that will cure them. In most cases, there is no treatment that will allow them to live with a meaningful quality of life, past six months. Of course, it's difficult to say to the day, when somebody is going to die, but there has to be a reasonable expectation that condition can end their life within six months. We also see a number of people with ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis. That's a particularly sensitive scenario because those people lose their ability to function, they lose their motor function, and as it gets progressively, further along, they lose their ability to swallow. They can lose their ability to speak and breathe. The time frame of that condition can be highly variable. We see people with advanced heart disease, congestive heart failure, advanced lung disease other neurologic diseases. Elizabeth: The gamut. Dr. Bob: We see the gamut, but those are the majority. We've talked about who's requesting this for the most part, who's eligible? A patient who is competent has a terminal diagnosis and is an adult resident of California. We talked about the requirements, what's the process. Let's talk a little bit about the challenges that we've identified or that other people have identified. At the very beginning of this process, I became aware that the law was going to begin taking effect just a few months after I started my medical practice at Integrated MD Care and I figured great this is progressive. We are kind of like Oregon, we are going to have this option available, and I felt like it was the right thing. I've always felt like people should have more control and be able to be more self-determining. Especially at end of life. Who's life is it? Right? Who are we to tell somebody that they have to stay alive longer than they want to. That never made sense to me. I think if you're not in this world of caring for people at end of life or you haven't had an experience with your family. Most people figure when people are dying they get taken care of adequately. Hospice comes in, and they take care of things. IN some cases that's true. In many cases, it is the furthest thing from the truth. People struggle and suffer. Patients struggle and suffer, families suffer and if we have another option, if we have other options available wouldn't we be giving them credence? My answer is yes, we should. So when the law was coming into effect, I figured physicians would be willing to support patients because it's the right thing. I just assumed people would go to their doctors and say 'we now have this law, can you help me' and the doctors would say 'of course.' It didn't quite work out that way. Now I understand why I see it more clearly. People started calling me to ask for my support, and I started meeting with them and learning about what they were going through and learning about all of the struggles they've had through their illness and trying to get support with what is now their legal right and they were getting turned away by doctor, after doctor, after doctor. I learned what I needed to learn about the process and I started supporting a few patients here and there. As time went on, I saw A)what an incredibly beautiful, beautiful process it is. What an extraordinary peaceful end of life we could help people achieve and the impact that it has on the families was so incredibly profound that I know that this was something that I needed to continue supporting. With the hope that other physicians would come on board and there wouldn't be such a wasteland and so much struggle because I can only take care of some many people. Well, it's a year and a half later, and I do think things have- Elizabeth: Improved. Improved some. Some of the hospital systems in San Diego certainly, have developed policies and process to support patients through the Aid and Dying, sometimes it can still be laborious and cumbersome, and hiccups occur that create great challenges and struggles. But what we've developed is a process that is so streamlined. Like Elizabeth mentions, we've come across so many of these obstacles and these issues that couldn't have really been anticipated. That have to do with hospice agencies not wanting to be supportive. Of not being able o find a consulting physician for various reasons. Coroners and medical examiners not understanding anything about this process. So we've had to be educating them to make sure that the police don't show up at somebodies house in the middle of the night. It's become a real passion for both of us and our whole team. To be able to do this and to be able to do this really well, as well as it could possibly be done. More doctors are coming on board and being open to this. I'll tell yeah, I'm not so sure that's the right thing, and we have thoughts about that. I've been talking a lot, so I wanna sit back and let you talk, take a sip of my coffee and I wanna hear your thoughts on- Elizabeth: Other doctors. Dr. Bob: Other doctors and how they perceive this. Why we may not just want every doctor- Elizabeth: Doing it. Dr. Bob: Doing it. Elizabeth: I think it's really important that other doctors be open to it. Especially open to the conversations. I think one of the things that has been the most important for me is to help people start those conversations with their doctors, with their families, with other healthcare providers. A lot of the doctors are restricted by policies where they work or by moral objections or just by not really being familiar and being concerned that they might misstep. I think that having doctors come on board first in terms of conversations is fantastic. Then also learning the process is important. As simple as it is in the way that you described it it's more complex than that. There are a lot of small details, paperwork, and requirements. Things have to be done a certain way in order to be compliant with the law. There are aspects of supporting the family. This is a very unique experience. If you as a physician don't have time to have longer conversations with patients and families, if you don't have time to provide anticipatory support and relief for the grieving process or for the dying process, it can be a struggle for the patients and families to go through this even if they have the legal support that they need. I think that that's one of the things you were referring to in terms of why it's not necessarily good for everybody to come on board. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Because if they say that they will support a patient and be their attending physician through this process, they could start the process and then come across some of these hurdles that they don't know what to do with and it could completely derail the process. It's too critical when patients finally feel that they now have this option available to them, that they see the light at the end of the tunnel, every little misstep and every little delay, is- Elizabeth: Excruciating. Dr. Bob: Excruciating. We see that happening over and over again. So when people find us and we assure them, we will help you get through this without any more hiccups, without anything getting derailed, they are very cynical. We tell them- Elizabeth: They've been so many doctors, they've been to doctors who've said... Dr. Bob: They've been screwed, they've... Elizabeth: We will help you, and they haven't gotten the help that they need. Dr. Bob: There is nothing that's more painful for somebody, an individual or a family member who's finally come around to wanting to support mom or dad or husband or a wife or a child and then to have it be taken away from them or threatened. We make ourselves available. There are times when we say we are available for you anytime, day or night; you can contact us. They start calling us; I've gotten calls at 2 in the morning from somebody just to say I just wanted to make sure you were really there. That you really would respond. They can't wait to get to the endpoint. Not even because they are ready to take the medication but because they are ready to have the peace of mind and the security of knowing that they have an easy out, rather than have to struggle to the bitter end. Elizabeth: This is really about empowering the patient and the family. This is all about providing them with the opportunity to do what they want to do with their life. To live it the way they want to live it and to end it the way they want to end it. Not in a way that is incongruent with their moral, ethical, spiritual life choices. In a way that supports the way that they've lived, the principals they've lived by and the things that matter to them. I would also say that the difficulties that doctors have had and the struggles that we've had in working with other physicians it's not because they don't care about their patients. It's not because they don't want the best thing for them. Maybe they disagree with what the best thing is, or maybe they feel that they are not able to provide sufficient support. There are a lot of really good doctors who aren't able, for whatever reason, to do this. Dr. Bob: That's a great point. I think a part of it is that sometimes they work for organizations that won't allow them to, and that happens often. Then they don't understand the process; they are intimidated by it. They don't want to mess it up. And, they are so busy that they feel like it's going to require too much time out of their day. Elizabeth: Which it does. Dr. Bob: Which it can, and they don't have any way to bill for that. They feel like they are going to be doing everybody a disservice. But unfortunately, that often leads to the patients being in this state of limbo and not knowing where to turn. Elizabeth: Thinking that they maybe they have started in the process and Dr. Bob: Not, we have certainly seen that. Elizabeth: Discovering later that they haven't. Dr. Bob: So we are going to close it down here shortly. One of the things, and you spoke about empowerment, and how really important that is, both for the patients and for the families. One thing that I've recognized, so now I've assessed and supported well over a hundred patients through this process. I've been with many of these people when they've taken the medication and died. So, I've seen how beautiful and peaceful it is. It literally in most cases, a lot of times there's laughter and just a feeling of incredible love and connection that occurs with the patient and the family in the moments leading up to that. Even after they have ingest the medication we have people who are expressing such deep gratitude and love and even laughing during the time because they are getting freed. They are not afraid, they are almost rushing towards this because it's going to free them. Most of the time they fall asleep within a matter of minutes and die peacefully within 20 to 30 minutes. Sometimes sooner. Occasionally a bit longer. But, if anyone is wondering if there is struggle or pain or flopping around in the death throws. None of that. This is truly...this is how I want to go when it's my time. The one thing that seems very consistent with the patients that I've care for through this process is, they have a physical condition that is ravaging their bodies. Their bodies are decaying, they are declining, they are not functioning. Their bodies are no longer serving them. But their spirit, is still strong. They have to be competent to be able to make this decision. Most of the time they are so determined to be in control of what happens to them, their spirit has always been strong. They have lost control because their bodies no longer function and that is irreconcilable for them. They cannot reconcile this strong spirit in a body that is no longer serving them and that is only going to continue getting worse. That's the other important part of this. These are people who are dying, they are not taking this medication because they are tired of living. They are taking this medication because they are dying and they don't see any reason to allow their death to be more prolonged and more painful, than it needs to be. They are empowered, and we are empowering people to live fully until their last moments and to die peacefully. My last little note here is, why do we do this? Well, that's why we do this. Elizabeth: Yeah. Dr. Bob: Because people deserve the absolute best most peaceful, most loving, death. This is in many cases, the only way to achieve that. I think we are going kinda wrap it up. We obviously are passionate about this topic. We are passionate about wanting to share the realities of it. We don't want there to be confusion, misconceptions, misunderstandings. Aid and Dying is here; it's not going away. It's going to continue to expand throughout our country. We are going to get to a place where everybody has the right to determine when their life should end peacefully when they're dying. I'm very happy and proud to be on the forefront of this. I know it's controversial, I imagine there are people who think that I'm evil and I'm okay with that because I know. I see the gratitude that we get from so many patients and families. When we go out and speak to groups about this the vast majority of people are so supportive and Elizabeth: Sort of relieved, even the professionals are so relieved. We have a patient, we have been helping another doctor support that patient, and he's so relieved and so friendly and so grateful just to be able to provide the support that he wouldn't otherwise be able to provide. It's not just the patients; it's everybody we engage on this, it's really amazing. Dr. Bob: Thank you. It really is an honor to watch you engage with the patients and families and to be as supportive of what we're doing. It's remarkable. Elizabeth: Thank you. Dr. Bob: We will talk about some of the options that people have when they don't qualify for Aid and Dying because there are other options. We wanted to address some of those options as well but not on this live; we'll do that maybe next time. Thanks for tuning in, have an awesome day, and we will see you soon, take care. Photo Credit: CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION/WIKIMEDIA COMMONS PUBLIC DOMAIN
Dr. Karen Wyatt founded the End-of-Life University. Hear how her father's suicide lead her to learn about hospice and a career that focuses on helping educate people about end-of-life care. Contact End of Life University Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Transcript Dr. Bob: On this episode, I'm speaking with Dr. Karen Wyatt. Dr. Wyatt is a family practice physician who specialized in hospice medicine for many years, and more recently has created the End of Life University, which is an online site that provides education and tools for people to learn about and become more comfortable with approaching end of life and having the most peaceful and dignified end of life possible. She's also an author, has written several books, including What Really Matters, Seven Lessons for Living From the Stories of the Dying. She also wrote a book called the Tao of Death and A Matter of Life and Death. She is a speaker and a great advocate for excellent, compassionate end of life care. During our interview, there were a couple of little connectivity issues, so there's a couple of very brief glitches. I hope it doesn't take away from the valuable content. You'll get some phenomenal insight and inspiration from this interview. Thanks for tuning in. Thank you, Karen, for being on our show today. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Hi, Bob. Thank you so much for having me. Dr. Bob: We had a chance to talk a couple of weeks age when I was interviewed for your podcast, and it was a great conversation. I think we both recognize that we have so much alignment, so many things in common regarding our careers and kind of where our priorities are, where our visions are trying to take us. You probably see this as well. Most of the people who are really passionate about providing great care for people at end of life have a personal experience or a personal story that kind of fuels their drive and their passion for that. I know you have one as well. Can you share a bit about how you became so aware of the importance of providing really phenomenal end of life care and making appropriate preparations? What's your story? Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yes. I'm happy to share that, Bob. It started for me a long time ago, when I was just a young doctor, brand new in medical practice, and I had trained in family medicine, but honestly had no training whatsoever in end of life issues. I hadn't received any ... at all around death and dying, which is shocking really when I look back and think about that. I really didn't have any knowledge or awareness of end of life issues and what was happening in that arena. But at that time I was in my early 30s, and my own father committed suicide, which was a horrific tragedy for me and my entire ... , but particularly devastating to me, because I was a doctor, because I had done extra training in psychiatry, just so that I could treat people with depression, and I had worked with some suicidal patients in my practice. The fact that I couldn't help my own father just completely tore me apart and really caused me to question, "Am I even a good doctor? Should I even be doing medicine?" I floundered for about three years with just overwhelming guilt and grief after my dad's death. One day I got the idea to call hospice, even though at that time I wasn't even really sure what hospice did. I knew so little about it, but this inspiration just popped into my head, "Call hospice." I called and had a chat with them, the hospice in my community, to see if I could volunteer in any way. It turns out their medical director had just resigned 30 minutes before I called, and so she said, "Actually, we have a job for you right now." Knowing almost nothing about hospice, or death and dying, or end of life care, I became a hospice medical director. From that moment on, my training started in really learning about dying. I was trained by the nurses. Our hospice at that time had nurses who had worked there for 10 and 15 years, caring for dying patients. I just followed them everywhere. I sat with them, and I just soaked up all this wisdom, and experience, and knowledge from them, all things that, looking back, I know I should have learned as a doctor. It was embarrassing that, as a doctor, I knew so little, but once I started making home visits to patients in hospice, I realized this is where I'm meant to be. This is the kind of medicine I was meant to do all along. It felt like I was home in a way like I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing now. It was a huge relief to me professionally to be finally offering the kind of care I wanted to give. I loved the fact that hospice was team-oriented, so I got to work with other people, with nurses, and home health aides, and the social work, and the chaplain, and we would all meet together to provide care as a team. That really fit perfectly with how I thought care should be offered to all patients, not just end of life patients. I spent many years doing hospice full time. I left family practice, did only hospice for a number of years. I just had profound experiences there, and I can say really by just immersing myself in death and dying is the way I found my way through that horrible grief and guilt that I was carrying after my dad's death. Long story, but as it goes, I ended up deciding I wanted to write a book about patients I had cared for. ... It took me many, many years to actually do that, find the time and get the book written, but I finally got that done, and I ended up leaving medicine in order to start writing. That happened eight years ago. Now I haven't been in clinical practice. I've been doing more writing, and speaking, and educating for the past eight years. Dr. Bob: Do you feel like the time you have devoted to A, caring for patients and being a part of that amazing hospice team and the work that you've done as a teacher and a writer, have you eased your conscience? Have you gotten to a place where you're not feeling guilty about what happened at this point? How has that worked? Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yeah. I would say it's much better now ... what I've begun to see over time, and it took a lot of years, is my dad was on his own path. He made his own choice and that really I couldn't have interrupted it. It was his decision, and he was determined to do what he did, and that my life intersected with my dad's life, because I was on my path, and his death is really what shifted me I think to a place I needed to be and a place I needed to go, and that without his death, I probably would never have ended up in hospice, and not that I'm saying that's a justification or the reason why my dad died, but it all fit together in that way and kind of brought me to a place where I needed to be. So, I was able to let go of feeling responsible for my dad, and allow my dad the responsibility for his own choices, and feel like I at least was able to make something beautiful out of the tragedy that happened. Dr. Bob: That experience, it's interesting, because I talk to so many people who go through a death, they go through what's a tragic loss, and ultimately there's something powerful and amazing that comes out of that. I couldn't say that that's ubiquitous, and it happens in every case, but I know a number of people, and myself included, where death has resulted in a transformation of some sort that clearly would not have taken place without the death having occurred. I think about the silver lining of life and death. For myself, the first real, peaceful death that I ever encountered or was part of that experience was my friend, Darren Farwell, who died at 32 back in 2001, and for me that was what planted the seed of wanting to provide this amazing type of care to people, you know, this interdisciplinary, holistic, compassionate type of care, because I got exposed to hospice for the first time. Then additionally, his wife ended up creating a foundation to help ... He died of melanoma, and his wife, Rhonda, created a foundation to help support education about the dangers of the sun and then built a company called UV Skinz that makes UV protective clothing and swimwear, which has grown into a phenomenal company. I see these UV Skinz being worn all over the beaches of San Diego and Hawaii. I talked to so many people over time who have been able to make something remarkable happen as a result of having experienced a death in their life. I'm assuming that you've had similar experiences. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Oh, yes. So many times, through the interviews that I do as well for End of Life University and just people that I've met, in this grief work really, that sometimes as our way of working through grief we take up a project or make a change in our lives. It can be profound, but all of these people, as you're describing, talk the same way, that it was a transformation for them. They really feel like they became the person they were meant to be, who they were meant to be, true path, true calling, once they worked through the grief that they experienced from tragedy. Dr. Bob: Interesting. It's not necessarily the death, the loss, the change that occurs because of that. It's the work that goes into the grief process and sort of the rebuilding of a life after the loss. I'm sure it's all part of it, right? Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yeah. Dr. Bob: But I guess that's probably an important component of it, the work that goes in, and what we learn about ourselves, and the other support that we may get that guides us after that experience. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yeah. So true. It all fits together, but I think death really awakens us and helps us learn to cherish life and then make the most of it too when it hits us that wait a minute. I won't be here forever. This is limited. I need to make sure that I make the most of every moment that I have. Dr. Bob: I mean, wouldn't it be nice if somebody could have that awareness and gain that awareness without having to go through that experience? I guess maybe that's partly what we're trying to do, right? Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yeah. I've wondered about that, like is it really possible for someone to grasp that? But yes. I think most of the information I disseminate has that purpose behind it, that if only someone hears this, will learn something, will open their eyes a little bit and recognize that natural part of life for everyone, so they need to pay attention to it and be aware of it. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Well, the work that you're doing now, you're very prolific. You're putting out a lot on your website, and you're creating groups. I know you created The Year of Reading Dangerously, a book club to help people get exposed to books that are out there that could give them a new perspective and bring more value. Can you share a little bit about what you've experienced through creating that one program? I know there are others, but I wanted to kind of focus a little bit on that one. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yes. Well, it's interesting. I got the idea at the end of last year. It would be really cool to do an online reading group or book club, because I had written a blog post about how to start an end of life book club in your community, and I heard back from several people that because of that blog post, they had done a year-long book group, reading books about death and dying. I thought, "But what if I could do it online and have a bigger group [inaudible 00:14:15]?" I had no idea if it would resonate with people if anyone would even be interested and would sign up. I just posted it right around New Year's Day. I posted a little message on Facebook, you know, for my Facebook followers and said, "I'm starting this reading group. You can sign up here if you're interested." That was right before I went to bed one night, and I woke up in the morning, and ... already ... reading group, and within a week I think I had 600 people on the list. That post about the reading group had been shared 57 times, so people were sharing it with other people they knew. Now we have 830 people who signed up for the reading group. We're just reading one book each month during the year of 2018. ... Each month I'm doing a conference call discussion of the book. Most of the authors of the books I've chosen for this year have agreed to come on the call and actually be there for a Q&A session. Dr. Bob: Oh. That's phenomenal. Dr. Karen Wyatt: It's really exciting and really fun. I've been fascinated to see the people who are joining the group. At first, I thought it'll just be all the same people. It'll be all the same people that already do this work who are interested, but I'm getting a lot of people are writing in on the Facebook group, "I know that it's time for me to start looking at death and dying, and I thought this would be a good way to get introduced to it." I'm excited. It was just a fun, little experiment, but it turns out that it does seem to be something people are looking for. Dr. Bob: Well, clearly. I'm part of that group now as well. It seems like there really is a growing sense of desire for people to connect around the topic of death and dying. I started a meetup here in San Diego as well, called Reimagining End of Life Care. The idea is I just want to bring people together from all different walks of life who are interested in talking about, sharing ideas, looking at the issues, trying to bring their own unique perspective and gifts, whether that's a nurse, or a doctor, or a social worker, or an Uber driver, or somebody out in the community. There are 120 people in the first couple of days joined this meetup group, because I think it's just something that's sparking interest. People are getting more comfortable exploring. I think people recognize that if you just allow things to happen by default, there's a good chance that they won't go well. There's more awareness of that. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yes. Definitely. I think this interest has really grown just in the last three to four years. I don't know if you've experienced that, but it seems like there's momentum now behind it. More and more people are starting to wake up and be at least less afraid of talking about death and dying. They might still be afraid of death itself, but they're less avoidant of the subject now. Dr. Bob: I think that there's growing awareness. There are the death cafes that are popping up. I guess I'm a little bit unsure whether it's just the world that I'm living in, and so I'm much more aware of it, or if it's really happening. I'm going to assume that it's really happening. I'm going to make that decision to choose to believe that it's happening, and we are part of that momentum, and we can help I think, through our experiences and through our desires, try to help to guide people to understand what they can do, what each individual can do to have A, the best possible end of life experience for themselves, to help guide others in their sphere of influence. I think like you clearly believe that the best way to have a good experience or the best chances of having a good experience is to be ready, is to be prepared, is to understand what the potential issues are, what you need to put in place to make sure that you have the best chances of having your end of life go the way that you would want it to go. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Exactly. If you even think about it, would you ever go on a journey to a place you've never been before without preparing for it ahead of time, without reading about it and learning what you need to do in advance before that trip? Getting ready for the end of life, it's really similar. You're just learning as much as you can and preparing yourself, so that you can make choices in the moment when you need to, and that you're ready for whatever might come up on that journey that you're going on. Dr. Bob: You know, I like that analogy. There are people who don't want to plan and are going to take a trip, and they're just going to start driving, right? They may know what their ultimate destination is, or they may not even know what the ultimate destination is, but they're okay with things just kind of happening and rolling with it. There are people who will live their life that way, and not plan, and not prepare, and take their chances. That's okay. That's your choice. The problem though with that is that if that's the way you choose to proceed, somebody may end up taking the flack for that, right? Your loved ones, your family members, somebody's may end up having to make choices that they're not prepared for and have to deal with kind of the fallout, which we see all the time, right? Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yeah. So true. Yes. Exactly. The loved ones might be left with terrible grief, and guilt, and a burden of having to make decisions, and that's something we all need to remember. How do we want our loved ones ...? How do we want to leave them when we do go? Dr. Bob: Sometimes people, they need a little bit more incentive than just doing it for themselves. We all know that it's important to plan and to create advanced healthcare, or we should all know that it's important to have advanced healthcare directed, to have a will, to have these things set up, so that your loved ones won't have to try to figure it out in the heat of things, but I think one way to help to inspire, encourage, incentivize people is make sure that they understand that they'll be gone or they'll be unconscious, but it's the people they care about who are going to potentially carry this burden and potentially carry guilt around with them and regret for the rest of their lives. Do it for them. If you're not going to take care of your documents, and your paperwork, and put things in place for yourself, do it for your children. Do it for your siblings. I think it's a really important message for us to share. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Absolutely. I do know many people who say, "I don't care that much what happens to me, so why should I plan." Your message is perfect, because you do care about what happens to your loved ones, and you want them to have as much peace of mind as possible. Dr. Bob: You've put a lot of things in place, and I really encourage everyone who's listening to go to Karen's website, because there's just a wealth of information, resources, and tools that are out there that can help people move forward with this kind of planning. Can you share a little bit about how that's all kind of come together? Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yes. I started End of Life University actually after I wrote the book, the book I mentioned of stories about hospice patients, and it came out six years ago. I decided I have to do something more than just putting a book out there in the world. That's when I started doing interviews for End of Life University with people who work in all aspects of the end of life arena. I do two interviews every month on End of Life University, and your interview is upcoming in March, the one I did with you. Then I repurpose some of those interviews and have a podcast on iTunes, just like your podcast, that comes out weekly, but I keep getting more and more ideas. I start something good [inaudible 00:23:32] new idea, like, "Oh, wait. That's not enough. I need to do something more." Besides the interviews, I created ... for end of life planning, called The Step-By-Step Roadmap to Planning for the End-of-Life. So, it's just a little course, a self-directed course that walks people through the steps they need to take in order to get their paperwork done, and I'm working on other courses right now, courses to train people to become death educators in their community, to go out and start workshops, to become an educator in their own community for their neighbors and friends. Dr. Bob: So, spreading it out, right? I mean, there's so much need, and there's so much work to be done. Obviously, it's going to take a tribe, a village, and so like me, you're bringing together a tribe of people who want to make sure that the experience at end of life is as dignified and peaceful as possible. It starts so far upstream. When we think about end of life and having a peaceful end of life, you think about those last few days or weeks, but it really is so important to be working with people either before they're diagnosed with a serious illness or at the time of diagnosis. We can't wait until just those last few days of life to put in place the things that are going to allow for a peaceful and dignified transition. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yes. That's so true. Dr. Bob: We have to have a different conversation about continuing or discontinuing treatments. I'm sure you've experienced this as well. The medical community is so reluctant or unable to dive into those deep conversations with people about the potential impact of some of the treatments or the other options that are available. I hear it all the time from patients, you know, "My doctor would never talk about that. They wouldn't go down that path with me. They only gave me this one option." I just heard from somebody yesterday who was seeing an oncologist for esophageal cancer, and when she told the oncologist that she didn't want to do yet another course of chemotherapy because the tumor was still growing ... She'd had very toxic side effects from it, and she just wanted to try to have the last few months of her life not feeling sick all the time, knowing that at some point the cancer would progress, and she would be very compromised, but she wanted this window of time. Her doctor basically told her not to come back, "There's nothing more that I can do. If you're not going to take my advice and go with my recommendations, then here's a number for hospice," which is so wrong. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Wow. Oh. Absolutely. It's heartbreaking because a patient who's been working with a doctor for sometimes year in treatment and then suddenly the doctor abandons that patient and says, "I don't want to see you again," it's tragic. Now ... doctor, who now is not going to be exposed to the actual end of life process for his patients. He's refusing to even deal with that portion of her life as it plays out, and it's really sad for that doctor, who won't get the advantage of seeing what's possible for a patient. That just breaks my heart. Dr. Bob: It did for mine as well. I hear stories like that not infrequently. In this particular patient, she wanted to access a prescription through medical aid in dying, not that she's ready to end her life, but she knows what the ultimate course of metastatic esophageal cancer is, and it's not pretty, so she wants to be prepared, have that option. She asked her oncologist if he was in support if he could help her or even guide her, and his response was, "I don't do that. Here's a number for hospice," which again, I don't want to label all ... I don't want to generalize, but I do feel that the medical community is doing a disservice to people by not recognizing that this period of time between aggressive treatment and death, it could be so much better supported, and there's so much more that can be done, but they don't understand it. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yes. I would say one of my goals ultimately is to work with my colleagues in medicine and help [inaudible 00:29:02] and open their eyes to death and dying, but I realize that may not happen until we kind of galvanize their patients. We need to ... . At the grassroots level, we need patients going to their doctors saying, "You have to talk to me about and deal with me about this." I was really thrilled a few weeks ago. I got an email from a woman who had been listening to my podcast, and she and her husband are both in their 70s. She said, "We listened to your podcast about how patients need to bring up the topic with their doctors." She said, "We brought in our ... will, and we sat with our doctor and said, 'We want to go over this with you.'" She said, "His eyes got huge, and he backed toward the door and was saying, 'No. No. No. We don't need to talk about this.'" They insisted, so he sat down with them. He answered their questions. They went through their living wills together. In the end, he seemed grateful. He thanked them and said, "I'm glad that you brought this up." I was so thrilled. It actually does work. If patients will have the courage to insist that their doctors talk with them, I think the doctors will ultimately say, "Okay. I'll look at this with you." Dr. Bob: We might not get every one of them, but I think that's one certain definite strategy. Like you said, that physician was grateful. That very well may have shifted his practice, right? That one encounter, that one experience he might have recognized, "Wow. This is really meaningful, and this is important stuff, and it's not hard." Right? It's not all that difficult. It just takes a little bit of time. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yeah. If you haven't been introduced to it or trained to have the conversation, it feels much more intimidating, and it is in your mind, than it really is once you start talking about it. I think that becomes an obstacle to physicians to bring up the subject, but once they've done it, they can realize, oh, it actually feels comfortable, and it actually it's kind of a relief, once we get these issues out in the open and discuss it together. Dr. Bob: Well, Karen, I think you and I have a lot of good work to do, both individually and together. I think, as we've been talking about, there are some great opportunities to bring our tribes together, and continue moving the needle in the right direction, and trying to give as many people as possible the tools that they need, the inspiration they need to put in place what they can to ensure that as their life is coming to a close, as they're dealing with these health challenges, that their values and their wishes are honored. I'm really happy to be in partnership with you on that. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Same here. Same here. It's good to join forces. Dr. Bob: Yeah. You got a lot of, as we mentioned, a lot of great material and resources, so how do people tap into that? What's the best way for people to access what you've put together? Dr. Karen Wyatt: They can go to EOLUniversity.com. That's my website, EOL standing for end of life, but EOLUniversity.com. There they can connect to the podcast and blogs I've written. They can learn about upcoming interviews, find my books and courses, so I need to update that a little bit, but they should be able to find everything at EOLUniversity.com. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Well, you've done a phenomenal job. When you go to her website, don't be overwhelmed. There's a lot of information, but just take it a bit at a time. Dive in. If you're interested in, I guess in just dipping your toes in the water of this, then maybe sign up for the Year of Reading Dangerously Book Club and start with one or two of those books. We will, I'm sure, have more time, opportunities to connect and collaborate. Again, I appreciate you taking the time. I love our conversations because it's just sort of like talking to myself, but with somebody smarter. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yeah. It's wonderful. It's wonderful for me too, Bob, to be speaking to somebody like-minded, so thanks so much for this opportunity. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you, listeners, for tuning in. Until next time, have a wonderful day, and give your loved ones a big hug and a kiss. Take care.
Dr. Tim Corbin joins the Integrated MD Care team. He shares his experiences as the Director of Palliative Care at Scripps Health and why working with terminally ill patients is so meaningful to him. Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Transcript Dr. Bob: Welcome back to A Life And Death Conversation. I'm Dr. Bob Uslander, and I'm here today with my good friend, Dr. Tim Corbin, who has recently joined the ranks of Integrated MD Care after working for many years in various capacities as a hospitalist, a palliative care and hospice physician. Tim, I'm excited to have you on the show, and I'm excited to have you as part of our team, Tim. Dr. Corbin: It's good to be here. It's been a journey to get here, and it's a really exciting future for me. Dr. Bob: Well, we've been talking about working together for quite a while now, and timing is everything. Just so listeners are up to speed on you and what you bring to our team, tell me a little bit about your background, your training, and the work that you've been doing up until now. Dr. Corbin: Sure. Well, I'm internal medicine trained through my residency and became board certified in internal medicine. I went into private practice for a few years. I had the romantic vision of being able to take care of my patient completely in my office at home, in the hospital. I realize in the changes of healthcare that that just wasn't practical. It became more difficult at that time to make a living doing that, believe it or not, with insurance changes, and the evolution of HMOs, and all those sorts of things. What I really loved, being in the hospital, taking care of patients who were facing more serious illness and ultimately became a hospitalist as that movement was developing, so spent over 10 years being a hospitalist and taking care of patients in the hospital. But all along I've been doing hospice medicine. There was just a part of me that identified with patients, and I saw that need, and it was very meaningful work, so always a percentage of my practice evolved around caring for patients on hospice and at home. Palliative care became one of the fastest growing specialties in medicine, you know, kind of in the last 10 years. Having done hospital-based medicine as well as hospice work, I was in a position to really gravitate towards that, and it really spoke to the style of medicine that I like to practice, and I again saw a huge need, and so began developing really hospital-based palliative medicine services, and started one in 2008, and then ultimately became the director of the palliative care service at Scripps Health for four or five years. Dr. Bob: It seems like you were in a really well positioned for palliative medicine, being internal medicine trained, having all that experience in the hospital, working with hospice. I think, like me, what you recognized was there's a gap, right? Dr. Corbin: Absolutely. Dr. Bob: There's a gap between treating people aggressively in the hospital and then sending them off to hospice, where the entire focus is comfort and essentially waiting until the end of life. There's this big gap there, where people still need more care. Dr. Corbin: Having done so much care at home, I think I would see in the hospital what patients were often missing. You know, they were receiving their care in the hospital setting, and I always thought about the possibilities of doing some of this at home, where patients prefer to be and can be more comfortable if we had the abilities to do that. That was clearly a huge gap that's been improving, but in my careers, that was a huge gap for families and patients, so I recognized that pretty early on. I always used to joke that hospital medicine, you know, being a hospitalist and internist, strengthened my care, caring for patients at the end of life, but the opposite was true. Me doing hospice medicine and caring for so many patients when they were dying really strengthened my ability to be a better doctor upstream, as an internist, seeing patients in a hospital or even in a clinic setting. Dr. Bob: So, can you expand on that a little bit? Why is that? What do you think that results from? Dr. Corbin: I think for myself, if I'm effective as a palliative care physician, I'm guiding patients through the process of end of life, if patients and families don't recognize that there was a possible issue that could have caused more pain, or suffering, or difficulty, but I've been able to help guide that that never becomes and issue, because I have kind of a prospective insight about what may be coming, and so part of it is a skill of anticipating when we may not have good outcomes or beneficial care and not providing care that doesn't provide that. The way you set what beneficial care is and what quality is is really having those conversations with patients and families so that you gear your care towards what best supports them as a patient and a person. Dr. Bob: Yeah. What they want, what their goals are. Dr. Corbin: What they want. Dr. Bob: It's so true. I think that most physicians who don't take care of people who are dying or who don't see them in their homes, the traditional office-based physician, really have no idea what those challenges are and what's happening with people once they're no longer able to come to their office. I don't fault them for it, but there's a certain amount of ignorance or just lack of experience. They can't anticipate it, which if they can't anticipate it, they can't do anything about it. ` Dr. Corbin: You can take a history and a social history and ask patients, but when you're in the home, and you see for yourself, you see aspects that will affect patients' medical care. Now we're getting in the realm of talking about the social issues and the emotional issues, even spiritual issues. You go in a house, and you can tell a lot about what's important to a patient, and you can immediately identify conflicts and what we're doing medically that don't align with that. Dr. Bob: Right. That don't support that. Sure. Dr. Corbin: In fact, many times I would say, "You know, let me come see you at home next week," and patients laugh out loud, or they're taken aback. They say, "Well, I can come see you in your office." I say, "No. I really want to come see you at home," because I anticipate that later I will need to come to their home–in a fair amount of time–but also, again, it gives me that insight, and there's something about being in a home environment, where you break down some barriers of trust. You can be open with each other to really talk about what's most important. I had a very elderly patient who had a lot of medical issues going on. I thought I was going to her home to talk about that, but her cat kept bothering us while we were trying to have our interview. What it came down to, one of her biggest stressors was, "What's going to happen to my cat? Who's going to take care of my cat?" These things were affecting her ability to make medical decisions about what she wanted and what choices she wanted because she was worried about who's going to help take care of her cat. Dr. Bob: If she were coming into your office, she probably wouldn't feel like that was worth your time, right, to bring that issue up. Dr. Corbin: Right. If I were really an astute clinician, I'd notice the cat hair on her maybe, and I would be able to ask those questions, but I'm usually not that good. Dr. Bob: The second part of that is that someone who's in the patient's home may see the cat, and the cat may come up in conversation, but they wouldn't really be so perceptive or be so concerned about that dynamic, so it's not just the fact that you're there. It's also the fact of who you are. Dr. Corbin: Too often what we see as important to physicians and clinicians is medically based. It's disease based. We don't often think about the social dynamic of patients and how that may affect their health and their decision making. I think that is so true in the hospital setting because patients become institutionalized. I mean, you're giving up your freedom in many aspects, because you become a patient, and you become a patient within a hospital that has certain processes, and rules, and you don't have access to your home. This is something that is tolerated, obviously, by many patients, and we give amazing care, but when you start having patients who that's not really the most appropriate place for them to be, then we have to start creating better solutions than using the hospital as a way to kind of take care of patients who really don't want to be there or don't need to be there. Dr. Bob: Right, or don't need to be there, or it's detrimental for them to be there. Let's segue into that. We'll go back and talk more about what you're doing now because you've made a shift, and you're no longer in that position of running the palliative care and hospice program at Scripps Health, much to many people's dismay over there and joy on our side. But I wanted us to talk a bit about the hospital experience, the gaps that people experience, the challenges, because me, having my experience of being an ER doc for so many years, seeing people coming in various states and conditions, you as a hospitalist, palliative care physician, hospice physician, I think we're in a unique position to help people understand some of the challenges and risks that they face when they are in the hospital dealing with complex illnesses. You can I could spend hours, and hopefully, we will, talking about the different challenges and gaps that people face and ways to help avoid being harmed by them. Well, let's spend a little time focusing on what happens in the hospital, what doesn't happen in the hospital, what happens when people are preparing to be discharged, and where are the gaps, and what can people do to help prevent any further turmoil or challenge? I mean, you mentioned when you're in the hospital, you're in an institution, right? You're in their territory, so you lose some of your freedoms. I think that people who work in the hospitals, they lose sight of that. I mean, they're busy. Everyone's working hard. No one's lollygagging around, for the most part. I will make generalizations. In general, I think that people in healthcare really do care. They really want to do the job, and they really want to take good care of people, so it's less of a personal personality issue, and I think more of an institutional system problem, that we just don't have enough staff. We don't have enough people to provide the kind of personalized, supportive care that people are looking for and need, and that's largely a financial issue, right? I mean, what's your perspective on that, having spent so much time in the hospital? Why don't people feel, in general, like they're well cared for? Or do you think that they do? Dr. Corbin: I think in many cases they do, and in many cases, they don't. I think one of my family members, in their personal experience, made a comment that in the hospital they felt like they were a cog in a wheel, where there's this path of workup, and diagnosis, and treatment that is on a course of, you know, kind of standard medical treatment that, again, a patient gets put into. A patient's in a bed. The physicians discuss having, "Well, we need to get a CT scan." It's ordered, and all of a sudden someone shows up to the patient, and they're whisking them to the radiology, and the patient doesn't understand why. When you sign yourself up in a hospital, you're signing yourself up and agreeing to the treatment that needs to be done for your particular issue. As physicians and clinicians, we're trained to treat that condition. You know, there's kind of a process and an algorithm to that, to a certain extent, and we don't often go off course. To not do something could risk missing a diagnosis or risk of there being downstream harm, and physicians are very sensitive to that, whether it's from the standpoint of malpractice or not providing a standard of care. The standard of care becomes doing everything, which is not always appropriate. It's not always beneficial care. I tell you, patients often recognize that, and they understand that and are willing to take that risk, if you will, so there becomes this disconnect between what the treating teams are doing and what the patients really want. The patients, it's not that they don't want to be hospitalized. They may say, "You know, I'm weaker at home. I'm 90 years old, but my quality of life's pretty good, so I don't mind coming in and getting treated for pneumonia, but I'm not really up for getting a bunch of CT scans and being poked and prodded and this sort of thing," so where is that balance? In many ways, it's the physician's job to cure and to treat fully, but we're not always taught how not to do everything, so I think patients need to recognize that. There are many times patients bring up the fact and want to have this conversation. So, in the last 10 year, palliative care teams have developed in the hospitals, which are multidisciplinary teams made up of physicians, and nurses, and social workers, and even chaplains to really address patients' emotional, social, spiritual needs, as well as their physical needs, but really it developed as a support team to help support patients with serious illness through the hospitalization, which is kind of crazy when you think about it. Our technology and ability to treat patients is so, you know, high tech and the ability to keep patients going and keep patients alive is so extended that we need support teams to help- Dr. Bob: To protect them. Dr. Corbin: ... to help fend off, you know ... It's kind of like the ability to turn off your cellphone and ways for patients to connect with you. It's very interesting when you start thinking about the ... I always joke that I hope I don't have a job as a palliative care doc one day because that means that our healthcare system is treating patients with the values and the principles of palliative care that we don't need specialists in palliative care to do this. I think we'll always need our expertise and specialty, but there's so much work to be done in that realm of taking care of patients holistically. Dr. Bob: So, a huge issue that we touched on is that when people are in the hospital, sometimes the care is appropriate, and then there are times when it just goes beyond what they would want or might seem necessary because that's just the way it's done. My sense is that it's the path of least resistance. A person is in the hospital. They've got a condition. Something else might be identified. Then they get a consult with the kidney specialist, and they get a consult by the cardiologist, and a consult by the infectious disease guy, and the pulmonologist. Everybody gets a piece of this patient. Everybody gets paid, but everyone's ordering the tests that they feel are appropriate, potentially the treatments that they feel appropriate, and then before you know it, there are six different physicians treating the patient, and they're now a week into it, and they've been tested and treated way beyond they may have ever wanted, because those conversations are not happening. Dr. Corbin: Let's think about each of those physicians who are seeing those patients, who are amazing clinicians, really good docs, want the best for the patients, want the best outcomes, so intentions are all perfect and good, but in today the chances that any one of those physicians has a long-term relationship with that patient is almost zero. We now have sub-specialists, who do nothing but round in the hospital for their group. We used to have just hospitalists. Now we have cardiologists that are hospitalists. We have GI docs that are hospitalists. We have neurologists that ... when you get admitted to a hospital, you have this new team taking care of you, and no one has had that relationship over time. If you, as a patient, have defined what is most important to you and what your true goals are for your life, what gives you dignity and respect, and how you want your life to go as you become sicker, no one has appreciation for that. That's one reason we have palliative care teams, because we sit there for three hours and try to understand this, so we can affect what we decide to do with patients. If you don't have those conversations, as my family said, you become a cog in a wheel, where we're going to treat whatever's going on as we do everybody, and there are tremendous pressures to then get you out of the hospital. You know, we always want a shorter length of stay. Dr. Bob: We do everything- Dr. Corbin: When I first started as a hospitalist, patients stayed in the hospital five or six days. Now it's down to below four days, three days average length of stay. Tremendous pressure to see patients, make a diagnosis, start treatment, and then get out of the hospital. So, you don't have the luxury of time to sit there and think about what you want, or you don't want, because people are coming up to you constantly saying, "We need to do this next and this next." So, it can be completely overwhelming. Families and patients get in a crisis mode. You know, I tell families and patients, "It's really not a good place, in a hospital, to be making life or death decisions, when you're in a crisis mode, where you're emotionally stressed. You haven't been sleeping well. Family's flying in from out of town everywhere, and you're being asked to make decisions that hugely impact what your future is going to look like. You really need to try to have these conversations earlier." Dr. Bob: Very critical information, the timing of that, when you do it, but a lot of times it's not being done. Dr. Corbin: Absolutely. Dr. Bob: So, we now find people who are facing this. They're in the hospital. They're being asked or kind of demanded to make a decision about what's next for them, which may mean going home with certain treatments. It may mean going home and being in hospice. It may mean going to a nursing facility. But they're being pressured, because of what you were just describing, where there's pressure on the physicians to discharge patients and get them out of the hospital quicker, which in some cases is appropriate, but it puts this new sense of time pressure on families to make decisions, and they're getting it from the hospital discharge planners, and the case managers, and now the doctors. So, what do you do? Dr. Corbin: Yeah. You started this conversation talking about gaps in care. I think the gaps are that, you know, our healthcare system's kind of in silos. You see your primary doctor. You go to specialists. When you're in the hospital, you have your hospital team. When you leave the hospital, you may go to a facility, like a skilled nursing facility, which has its own team. So, the patient needs to speak for themselves. We talk about healthcare now should be more patient-centered and family-centered, where the patient should have the autonomy in decision making to make decisions that are best for them, but they're constantly facing a new team. I once looked at social workers' touches on a patient who had cancer very early in their diagnosis all the way through to the end of their life, and they had five different social workers over the course of like a two year period. You know, they had a social worker, outpatient oncology social worker. They had a home health social worker. They had a social worker in the hospital. The palliative care team had seen them eventually, and they had their own social worker. When they ultimately went home on hospice, they had a different social worker. So, you can see that families and patients sometimes complain about having to tell their story again, because they're constantly having to tell their story again– Dr. Bob: Over, and over, and over. Dr. Corbin: ... and reiterate what's most important to them. You know? It's almost like telling my story fatigue. They just get tired of that. So, there are the gaps where there's not that support. Dr. Bob: The continuous support, the continuity. Dr. Corbin: And often it's about explaining to families and patients what their options are and how to be prepared for those things. It's much easier to do it when you have a little bit of time and space. It's very hard when you're told, "You need to figure this out within two days, because they're being discharged in two days, and we need to know if they're going to a skilled nursing, or are they going to go home with more support, or whatever the case may be." Then patients often, depending on what kind of support they need, they may ... For example, hospice, which is by definition for someone whose prognosis is estimated to be less than six months of life. With that, you get a hospice service, and you get kind of this comprehensive care that's paid for through a hospice benefit. It's great support. You have 24-hour care for nurses, a triage available. They can come to the home as needed. Medicines are often delivered to the patient. You have a social worker, physician's visit, do home visits. I mean, it's an amazing program, but it's for the more very end of life. I see a lot of patients who are kind of really I wouldn't say pushed, but one of the options is to go to hospice when maybe it's questionable whether they may qualify. It's questionable whether that's what they truly want. They're not maybe ready for that, but they get the support because everything else is breaking down, that they're kind of pushed towards that, and then patients get better because there's not another alternative. The alternative home is often home health, which doesn't give the same amount of support. If patients' preferences are to get home, one of the huge gaps is enabling patients to get home with the kind of support they need. By default, if we don't have that, they have to go to a skilled nursing facility many find it very difficult to participate, but they're supposed to participate with a certain amount of therapy. They prefer to be at home. You look at a healthcare system that's looking at ways to be more cost-effective and to give beneficial care. You know, you have a situation where patients prefer to be home. That's where they want to be, yet there's no infrastructure to support that, yet it's inexpensive care when you compare it to a skilled nursing facility, or you compare it to going back in the hospital, and yet we haven't, as a healthcare system, figured that out yet. There have been improvements there, but it's a gap. It's a problem. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I think one of the reasons that it continues is because the people who are making the recommendations and facilitating the discharge, physicians, discharge planners, case managers, they have a hard time thinking outside the box. They're looking at what is the most efficient. They're looking at multiple factors. They're looking at what's in the best interest of the patient, what's going to allow them to get the patient out most efficiently because they have pressure to discharge the patients, and then what they're familiar with. How do you facilitate it? Unfortunately, what's in the best interest of the patient or what's most aligned with the patient's goals and values drops down the list of priorities, and people, patients, and families don't know to question it. They don't question the doctor. When the doctor says, "You need to go to a nursing home," well, that's where you need to be, but many times, as we both know, that's really not what's in the best interest of the patient or the family, and so everyone continues to struggle. Dr. Corbin: We should always question, as patients and families, if possible, just not question, but understand. If I'm going through a test or if I'm being sent somewhere, you know, why? What's the purpose, and what is the outcome, and what's the endpoint? What is my goal? I often tell patient and families, "Let's understand who you are as a person, as a patient. What's most important to you? What gives you the quality of life and meaning? And let's align the medical care we provide and the support we give with those goals." It's approaching the patient from a completely different perspective than what we're really taught in medical school, which is really disease based, you know, history and physical, if you will. Diane Meier, who's a leader in palliative care, had a quote. I don't know her exact words, but basically, she said, "You know, palliative care is about matching patients' goals with the medical care we provide." Dr. Bob: It needs to be driven by that, and it's not. And patients still, especially the older patients that we get to take care of, they're intimidated. They don't feel empowered to question what's going on. They may, in some cases, and sometimes there's a family member who will stand up and advocate, but too seldom does that happen. We, I think you and I recognize these gaps. We're working towards trying to fill them in our way, in our community, but what I'd like to do is to give a couple of, I guess action items, a couple of things that people can do to take away from this discussion when they have a patient, a family member, or themselves admitted to the hospital who is then going to be discharged. What are the couple of things that we would recommend that people could do? I'll start by saying, in general, if possible, you should never allow a family member to be in the hospital alone. Whatever needs to happen. And I know it's not always easy. It can be very challenging. Sometimes it's costly, but when a person is in the hospital, they are sometimes sedated. There's the potential for medication errors. I had just a patient who was a 31-year-old woman, who was on pain medication for an intestinal disorder that made it so that she couldn't eat anything. She was being fed through feedings going through her veins. She got an infection. She was hospitalized. A well-meaning nurse, but a relatively new nurse, instead of giving her five milligrams of Methadone, gave her 50 milligrams of Methadone, which is a huge, potentially fatal error. Those types of things happen all the time. It's not just the errors. It's the feelings of loneliness, of isolation, of needing to get somebody to come in and help you get to the bathroom, to understand what the doctors are saying when they come in on their rounds, which could be whenever. People need advocates, and I will never allow a family member of mine to be in the hospital at any point without somebody there to advocate for them, so I would strongly encourage people to find a family member, friend, or even if you have to to pay someone to be there with you. Dr. Corbin: Yeah. I would agree with that. You know, things in the hospital happen fast. We used to round as a team once a day, get all our tests, round the next day. Now we're rounding multiple times a day on a patient. You'll round, get some tests. You'll round again in the afternoon. Things happen quickly, so for a family to get real-time information is challenging if you're not there. I also tell families, "You know your loved one best. What are you seeing?" Subtle confusion or changes in their cognitive abilities, which is very common when you're hospitalized, particularly when you're older, may be missed by someone who doesn't know the patient. If you treat that early, you can kind of help prevent some of that, so there are lots of reasons to have an advocate for a patient there, for sure. That's one of the risks of hospitalization. I mean, it's well documented, medical errors, and hopefully, there's been an improvement in protocols, but the reality is is that, again, you're institutionalized. There are processes, and as much as there are checks and balances to avoid mistakes, mistakes can happen that can cause harm. It's been well discussed in medicine as an issue in our healthcare system, as well as infection risks, and often hospitalization tends to lead to more treatment. One thing leads to another, so you have to define what your purpose is in the hospitalization. You may know this. What an ER doc told me once, "As soon as a patient comes into the ER, the first question I have, 'Am I sending them home, or am I admitting them?'" I mean, that's the first question they ask. You know, as a hospitalist, I would say, "Okay. When am I discharging this patient?" It was all about the discharge. It's, "What do we need to do to get the patient out?" That doesn't mean we're not concentrating on treating, but there's such pressure to get patients out. So, another thing of having someone be there with the patient, be an advocate, is really advocating for what the vision of the patient needs to be in transitioning out of the hospital, back home or wherever that might be. Dr. Bob: Right. You alluded to this, the experience and the perspective of an emergency physician, and I think another tip for people is really thinking about whether you need to go to the emergency room or not. Give some serious consideration to that, because when an elderly person or a person with complex illness ends up in the emergency room, it's far easier to admit them to the hospital than to discharge them. Whether that's in their best interest or will ultimately result in improvement, or the opposite becomes kind of secondary. Speaking from the perspective of a physician who worked in the ER for 20 years, when an ill or elderly person comes in, ideally we could assess what's going on, determine what needs to happen, and determine if we can safely allow them to go home, which is where they'd rather be, and in many cases that's the safest and best thing for them. But because that takes more time, energy, and puts more risk on us as a physician, the path of least resistance is to call the hospitalist and say, "I've got a 95-year-old who's maybe got a touch of pneumonia and a little fever," and they might fight you, because they don't want to do another admission, but you're going to push that. Then you're going to order all the tests and order all the x-rays to cover yourself. So, there are times when we pick up things, and that kind of a workup and approach is valuable, but there are many times when it's not. Dr. Corbin: Another thing for patient families to realize, is that most physician offices are open from 8:00 to 5:00, but it's often 9:00 to 4:00 or something like that. After hours, and weekends, there's more chance that you're going to have an issue off hours than you are during regular business hours. Our human bodies function or not function 24/7. But one question for patients and families is, "What do I do after hours or on weekends if I have a medical problem?" Unfortunately, by default, if there's an issue after hours, and if you have any kind of significant medical history with advanced illness, no one's going to take the chance that something is missed–so they say, "Go to the emergency room," or, "Go to Urgent Care." That's just what we do. We impact our emergency rooms. It's very expensive care. Most of the time, if you have significant illness, the ER doc's going to feel uncomfortable sending you home, because they don't know you, and it's complicated, and so you end up getting admitted. As a hospitalist, I felt I did a lot of admissions, which were unnecessary. If someone was there to coordinate care at home, and kind of have an oversight, and there was that plan of what to do if it was after hours. That's amazing thing of your service with integrated MD care is that someone who has that layers of care, you know, all this is kind of planned out, and you have that support, and patients are really satisfied because you're not just ... Patients aren't just being sent back to the emergency room, and you get, again, into that cog wheel of treatment, where many patients don't want to be, which is another point. One of the risks of hospitalization is when you go, the medical records, you know, your history, what's been done, there are often duplicated care. You get more imaging tests, and you get more workup that you don't really need. I really advocate for patients and families to take a medical history and have that with them. If you come with a full binder, no one's going to look at it or read it, so it needs to be kind of done by someone with some medical knowledge to very succinctly put the diagnosis and what treatment's been done, so it's well understood, because- Dr. Bob: A summary. Dr. Corbin: We just reinvent the wheel. Again, this new team takes over, and they're kind of obligated to do the workup, and it's probably, in many cases, already done. It doesn't seem like a big deal, until you're in that seat, or you find those tests to be very difficult to get through. You know, to go through an MRI, if you've ever had an MRI, it's not a fun experience. I've had one, generally young and healthy, and it was really tough. Imagine if you're in pain, or have more advances illness, or if you're elderly going through these tests. We don't think about it. We think to go to the hospital; you just do what you need to do. You get these tests, but we don't understand kind of sometimes the physical and emotional toll that that takes on you. Dr. Bob: It's very easy to order the tests, right? It's very easy to order an MRI, or a scan, or another blood test, but even just getting blood drawn, these people, the folks, they're sick. They feel horrible. Dr. Corbin: I used to challenge my ... I used to come in as an attending, whether I had residents or teaching. It was like day number seven of hospitalization, and they had the same blood panel every single day. I'm thinking, "What are you going to see in this blood test that may change what we're doing in management?" I mean, we get in this protocol where we stop thinking critically, and we just start treating patients as a process, and- Dr. Bob: Yeah. And a commodity. Dr. Corbin: It's easy to do. You referenced it earlier, about how when you work in that environment, it's comfortable to you. You know it. When you're not in it, it's over. I remember the first time as a medical student I walked into an intensive care unit. I kind of stood back, and it was just kind of a, "Wow." It was kind of overwhelming. Well, you know, when I was a resident, and I spent a whole month being an attending resident in the ICU, after that month it was ... Even after a month it became pretty routine, and all those bells, and whistles, and machines, and tubes, and everything else became kid of normal, which is kind of scary when you think about it, but you've just kind of normalize to that. We always have to back up and understand it. That's what's so hard to have these conversations with patients and families, to really get them to understand what things may look like as they make different choices about their treatment. I say, "There's no right or wrong answer about the treatment." I think patients need to understand their choices and make the decisions that are best for them, and then we try to support them in that decision. I think to have a good history available with you, be prepared with what your true goals are downstream, so you can share that information with physicians and teams, if you change different healthcare settings, and then really having someone that can really coordinate that care for you. If there's someone in the family that can't do it, and you have the means to have someone else or hire someone to help coordinate that care, just like having someone be with you in the hospital, there's no doubt you're going to get better care. Dr. Bob: Yeah. That's critical. Unfortunately, I think once you're in the hospital, it's hard for outsiders to come in. You might have that. So, for me, we do this high level of in-home care and become very intimately connected with our patients and our families. We do a great job of keeping them out of the hospital, because we are available 24/7, and we address things as they come up, and we really try to encourage people to not just rush to the hospital. In general, we're pretty successful at that, but sometimes people end up in the hospital. Even though I have this very intimate relationship and the patients want me and my team to be engaged, the hospital doesn't want that. They don't want outsiders coming in, and it's very difficult to get much information. I'm able to communicate with the hospitalists with some effort, but you can't coordinate anything. It's very difficult to influence the care that's happening, so you have to be able to work with the families, to spend some time with the patients, and allow them to become self-advocating as much as possible. Then get them the heck out the hospital as quick as possible, right? Let's talk for a moment about palliative care, because it really can add a lot of value to the experience for people in the hospital and save them from some future struggles and help guide things more in alignment with their values and wishes. Is palliative care available for every patient in the hospital, or how does somebody get a palliative care team to work with them and support them? Dr. Corbin: That's a very good question. Palliative care, first off, is really available to any patient at any time in their medical illness. It's a whole-person, holistic approach to care, where we address patients' physical needs, but also, as I mentioned, emotional, social, and even spiritual concerns, and try to align our care with what their true goals are for themselves, knowing that those goals may change with time. So it's a fluid situation. But it's really having those conversations and supporting those patients in that goal. It's a team approach, so it's a physician, and a nurse, and a social worker, and often a chaplain, and also maybe sometimes ancillary services as well, so it's a team approach as well. There's a lot of talk the last year that unfortunately palliative care, someone gets palliative care by chance. We know that palliative care is beneficial. We know it enhances the quality of life. We know patients like it. There's less caregiver stress. There's better end of life experience in death when that time ultimately comes. Patients can tolerate their medical treatments better when they have palliative care involved. We know all the outcomes look really good. Palliative care across the board is inaccessible to all patients in every care setting, and so it becomes who do you know? It's, "Oh. Well, I know my neighbor's Dr. Corbin, who does palliative care. Maybe you can call him," and so, oh, I get involved. It's kind of word of mouth and by chance, which is fortunate. Hopefully, in the future, we get palliative care across the spectrum. Palliative care started in a hospital setting, and now over 70% of hospitals in the country have some sort of palliative care team. For example, Scripps Health has palliative care team at all five or their campus and hospitals. So, patients in the hospital can request palliative care consultation. Usually, it's up to the attending physician, whether that's the specialist or the hospitalist, to request a palliative care consult. Dr. Bob: Can a patient or family request a consult? Dr. Corbin: It depends on the hospital. For example, at one of my hospitals, where I started the palliative care team, we made it so anybody could request a palliative care consult, family, the patient. It doesn't have to be from a physician. In that setting, we sent a nurse in to really evaluate the situation, to see what was happening, and then to talk to the attending physician and say, "Can palliative care ...?" But it was a real challenge, in the beginning, getting in the door. Dr. Bob: I would imagine. Dr. Corbin: In many ways, we're seen as a threat, or we do another layer of care that then can be seen as getting more complicated, but the reality is is that we're working through all these issues that really are not discussed. So, that's in the hospital. Most hospitals have palliative care, so if there's a desire to have palliative care if you ask. Often you can look online or read about the hospital, and they advertise their palliative program. The big gap is outpatient palliative care, so what happens to the patient when they go home? If they go to a skilled nursing facility, most likely they don't have palliative care. If you go home, most likely you're not going to have home palliative care, although there are some programs that exist now. There are different levels of what that means. So, if you've seen one home palliative program, you've probably seen one home palliative home program in terms of structure. Some are just nurse-driven. Some are just physician-driven. Dr. Bob: Or physician assistant, but none of them have figured out the model so that they can really deliver. Dr. Corbin: And the barrier's really been about reimbursement, who can pay for that. Unfortunately, that hasn't been figured out. There are trends now with private insurances, as well as possibly even Medicare, starting to pay for kind of more home palliative kind of bundle payments towards that, which will hopefully gain more access. Dr. Bob: Apparently Medi-Cal, which is the California Medicaid program, as of January 1st, is now paying for some version, some form of palliative care. Dr. Corbin: I know Blue Shield of California is paying for home palliative services for some of their patients they identify that need that. So, the other is outpatient palliative care in clinics. Now that's the third tier, so it's been kind of hospital-based, an attempt to do more home-based palliative care, and now actually doing even farther upstream where patients in a clinic setting can get palliative care has been pretty rare. I started an outpatient palliative care clinic at Scripps, which we ran in a radiation oncology center, which is a great setting, and I saw patients in the clinic just to kind of see patients kind of farther upstream. The powerful thing of that is that we were having these conversations not in the hospital when you're in the crisis mode. Because what happens? You can have all of this great plan and this great conversation in the hospital and know what you want to do, but as soon as the patient leaves the hospital, it all falls apart, because there's not the infrastructure or process to support it. You go back into the same process of delivering medical care that we do, which is going to your primary office, going to your specialist, and after hours, if you don't have availability, you go back to the hospital. How do you break that cycle? Dr. Bob: Your family was trying to figure out how to find the right resources for you. Dr. Corbin: So, seeing patients in a clinic upstream is extremely powerful. I would encourage patients with any non-curable illness, whether that's heart failure, or early dementia, or Parkinson's Disease, or an advanced stage cancer,–even if you're getting full treatment, you expect to get treatment, your illness will hopefully be well controlled for years to come–still you should have a palliative care type conversation with a physician or a team that understands the longterm vision. One, you start to have conversations that you don't want to have in crisis mode, or you don't want to have way down a couple of years from now when you're being admitted to the hospital. That's not the right time to have these conversations, to really, truly know what you want. It also relieves this burden. It's always the elephant in the room, you know, what do I truly want, and having these conversations. Frankly, having conversations about death, and what it may look like, and what your preferences are if you do that, it's not threatening when you do. If you do it when death is a real possibility– Dr. Bob: Death is looming. Right? Dr. Corbin: ... it's incredibly frightening and overwhelming. Dr. Bob: For everybody, including the physicians. Dr. Corbin: Including the physicians, so by fault, we don't have that conversation. So, the patients that can have these conversations, and they want ... Studies suggest that patients want to have these conversations. Dr. Bob: And experience would confirm that. Dr. Corbin: We just don't do a good job, as physicians or clinicians, having those conversations. We just don't want to have the conversation. Palliative care in the hospital, there is some in the outpatient clinic. For myself now, I have two days a week where I do outpatient palliative care, where I can see patients in a clinic setting. I'm working within an oncology group, but I'm open to more than just oncology, so if patients know about me, they can come and see me. The purpose is to say, "Hey. What's going on medically? What's going on in your life? Where are your stressors?" You know, I ask patients, "How do you feel your quality of life is? What is your distress? How are you sleeping? How are you eating? What are you eating? How is your nutrition? All of these are things that we generally don't talk about with patients. But it's all about how can we identify things that are important to you? I had a younger patient, with advanced cancer who, after a long conversation, two things in her life were missing. One, the ability to still do yoga, and two, she had some experience with acupuncture, and she was interested in trying that again, but she was kind of bummed that she tired and couldn't do yoga anymore. Through connections, and friends, and again, palliative care by chance, I called a couple of friends, and one goes once a week now to help her do restorative yoga, and another goes once a week to do acupuncture. She's just thrilled. She's thriving. Her tumor markers are decreasing. She's responding to her chemotherapy. Her sense of wellness is much better than what it was before. She has hope. She's confident. She's living with her cancer better. I guarantee you in a normal healthcare environment, that would never come up. If she didn't seek palliative care, no one would ever have the conversation about setting her up with home yoga or acupuncture. It just doesn't happen. Dr. Bob: It sounds like a great concept. I kind of wish I had thought of that. Dr. Corbin: And you did. You know, what you do, the services that you can provide through integrated MD care, for example, the music therapy or aromatherapy, or massage therapy, or acupuncture, many patients don't think about that being important, but it's incredible how that can help you tolerate treatment better, reduce stress, take away some of the fears that you have. Ultimately we're deciding what are you afraid of. Is it what's coming tomorrow? Do you make up a story in your mind of what your future's going to look like, or you make decisions based on that fear, or you have conversations about that? Do you understand the facts medically, from a physician and have someone who can tell you, "This is most likely what will happen, and there's evidence to support that,"? And you get rid of this stuff we make up that scares us, and then you start to trust yourself. You start to trust life to give you what you need, and patients start to respond to treatment and can tolerate things at a whole other level. Dr. Bob: If those things that would enhance your life, and those people, and those therapies are presented to you and through trusted sources, and you open yourself up to them, I've seen, as you are expressing, I've seen tremendous, tremendous transformations in people. I've seen people, who had a prognosis of a month, and they were being told that they've got a month or six weeks to live, open themselves to receiving these therapies and ultimately live for a year and a half with an incredible quality of life. The reason for that, it's multifactorial. Part of it is the actual therapeutic benefit. A lot of it is just this connection that happens with life through other people, who are there to reach into your spiritual being, to help bring out the joy. So, that's a powerful, powerful thing that there's really no way to really put any kind of value on. Dr. Corbin: It's really taking your life back from whatever disease you're dealing with. You think about it, you know, you're whole day. I saw a patient yesterday who wanted to come to my clinic, but he said, "You know, but every single day I have a doctor's appointment for the next two weeks. I don't know if I want to come see ..." I mean, your life revolves around testing, and diagnosis, and treatment, and you lose the things that were important to you, like yoga and massage therapy that you used to do. Dr. Bob: Or time with your grandchildren, or time at the beach. Dr. Corbin: Or time to read or whatever. So, if we can challenge patients to make space for that and to remain who they are as a person through their treatment, it's invaluable. You know, unfortunately, I was never taught that in medical school. We're not taught how to take care of that aspect of patients. It's been, you know, over 20 years since I've done that. I think the medical education system has responded to that in many ways, and it's getting better, but the reality is is that we don't ... We talked about this earlier. I'm taught how to do a history and physical, and the things that I ask in my social history, like, "Do you smoke? Do you drink?" You know, those sorts of things, but I'm not taught, "What is most important to you? How is your stress level now? How is your nutrition?" We just don't ask those questions. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Certainly not, "Where do you want to be when you die? Who do you want to be around you?" Because for me, and for you as well, the idea is starting with the end in mind. If you can get people to share what that experience, how they would like that experience to be, it tells you a lot about who they are, and then you can help to guide all the care that happens. Dr. Corbin: That conversation intertwines a lot of spiritual, religious, philosophy, all of these things, right? But it's not about that conversation. I mean, I can have a very religious person or a very spiritual person who still hasn't truly thought about the way they want their end of life to look like. Sometimes who I think might be the most religious or spiritual person struggles the most with that decision, because they haven't thought about it in the context of that. No matter what your belief system is, no matter what your support system is, if you're challenged to think about it, it's an exercise we should all do. Dr. Bob: And people will often spend a lot of time thinking about how it should be for others and what they're comfortable with, and what they believe. But it's very difficult for many people to actually go down that path and take it to the point of imagining and trying to identify what's most important for them at the time of their death. Dr. Corbin: So, we've covered a lot. Dr. Bob: Yup. Always. Dr. Corbin: We've touched on a lot of issues. I think, hopefully, this is really valuable for people to get some real, heartfelt discussion from physicians who have been right in the fray. Right? I feel like we have a kinship here. We both love medicine. We both love medical people. We have a lot of respect for the passion, and the heart, and the compassion of healthcare providers. We're sensitive to the fact that they are often working in environments that don't allow them to practice optimally, and it gets very frustrating and discouraging. We see how wonderful the medical technology is and what it can do for people, and at the same time, we see how that has created this propensity to use that technology, and wield it un-responsibly, and neglect sometimes what's really and truly most important to people which can be to encourage them to take a different path. Dr. Bob: We have a lot of experience. Hopefully, we've shared some things for people to think about, and I think we're going to have lots of opportunities to continue exploring, discussing the pros, the cons, the good, the bad, but I'm excited, because we, in our practice, get to fill the gaps. Dr. Corbin: Absolutely. Dr. Bob: That's why we started Integrated MD Care. That's why we're doing this podcast. That's why we're doing a lot of the things is we're responding, we're taking a risk, right? Dr. Corbin: Absolutely. Dr. Bob: We're stepping outside the norm, and we're facing some folks who don't quite understand what we're doing, how we're doing it, or why we're doing it, but I think we're both committed to the process and to serving people at the highest level. Dr. Corbin: Absolutely. I agree. At the end of the day, we need to listen to the patient, keep the patient in the middle, provide patients with the best quality and beneficial care, and that really comes from talking to the patient and understanding what gives them the most value. That's what it's all about. Then we need to help continue to push our healthcare system to give the infrastructure to support patients with that. It's really exciting to see the work that you've been doing, and the outcomes that you've had with patients and families and really helping patients be able to transcend those gaps to get the perfect alignment of care that they deserve. You know? And making it not about palliative care by chance or this type of care by chance, because someone happens to know you, but really hoping things like this podcast will start to trickle out there, so patients are aware of what is available. Hopefully, we'll push the expectations higher, and our healthcare system will start responding to that. Dr. Bob: Yeah. That's our goal. Dr. Corbin: Look forward to it. Dr. Bob: In the meantime, we're doing it, and we're letting people pay for it, to recognize the value that they receive. The non-profit foundation that's just been created, Integrated Life Care Foundation, will help to provide funding for people to receive this level of care when they don't have the resources to do it. I'd like to now officially welcome you to the Integrated MD Care team, as one of the providing physicians and one of the leaders of this movement. Dr. Corbin: I look forward to it. A lot of work to be done. Dr. Bob: Absolutely. Thanks for coming on the show, and we'll be connecting again soon.
Meet Julie Chrisco, a nurse practitioner with Integrated MD Care, who is passionate about helping people have the best experiences as the age as well as creating peace at end of life. Transcript Dr. Bob: Today I am really happy to be introducing you all to one of the newer additions to our team here at Integrated MD Care, Julie Chrisco. Julie is a nurse practitioner who's got tons of experience working with people at the end of life, both in palliative care and hospice. She is I think as passionate about this work as I am, which is why she's here working with us. Julie, welcome. Julie Chrisco: Thank you. Dr. Bob: Absolutely. You're very, very welcome. Thanks for taking the time. I'm really looking forward to having people get a sense of who you are and why this work is so important to you, and what you bring to it. This whole life and death conversation idea is really just to allow other people to listen in and hear the discussions that are so meaningful and poignant. I think as we have conversations day in and day out about some of the aspects of care for our patients and the ways that we're trying to support them and enhance their lives, and the challenges, I think so much of it is just so fascinating. I wish that people could be more consistently listening in and hearing these things because it would make, I think it would be ... It's very, not only is it interesting, but I think it is helpful for them to see how things can be addressed, and how challenges can be overcome, and how the final phase of a person's life can be supported. Again, thanks for being here. You know what, I'm going to jump right in. I'm going to talk a little bit about some of your background, and we'll add that in. Bottom line is you've been a nurse for many years. You've been in the hospice world for quite a while now. You're a nurse practitioner doing deep, deep work with people who are dealing with challenges, who are in many cases dying, taking their last breaths. Is it okay if I ask you a couple personal questions? Julie Chrisco: Sure. Dr. Bob: I figured that was the case. One of the things that I like to do with the guests who come on the show is to get a sense of how they feel about death, about the experiences that they've had, so that, because obviously there has to be a certain comfort level with death to do this work right? Julie Chrisco: True. Dr. Bob: I mean if you were afraid of talking about it, if it was anxiety provoking, I imagine you wouldn't be really effective at taking care of people who are in this phase. I'm just going to put it out there. What are your thoughts? Do you have any fear of death? What are your thoughts about death? How do you view it? Julie Chrisco: I can truly say I'm not afraid to die. I'm not going to lie, but there are things that I question, and I wonder, but I wouldn't call it fear. Fear is one of those loom and doom type things that I don't, that's not my perception of death. I've been involved with a multitude of deaths from patients that iv cared for to family members. In my opinion, death is just as life as part of what exists. Births come, and death comes too. It's just it's all part of the continuum of life. Therefore, I am not fearful of ending my life. I wonder and I worry maybe, I don't know if worry is even, I just I truly honestly want to capacitate myself, or be encompassed in a group of people, or my family, who are on the same page as myself because I know that end of life can be super peaceful, and comfortable, and wonderfully meaningful. That's what I need for my end of life experience to be, but I also know that there are tragic end of life experiences that happen where people don't, aren't allowed the ability to have that sort of thing. I don't fear that. I don't fear a quick, instantaneous death. I fear more of the human suffering that can go on. But I know that if you encompass yourself in a team of like-minded human beings and people who are on the same page as you, that doesn't have to look like that. Being in this work for as long as I have, I've seen so many beautiful end of life experiences. I will say that I have a really strong faith in the Lord and the hereafter. I truly believe that the hereafter is way better than the human suffering that goes on here on Earth. Yeah, there is, it's a peaceful feeling to think that there's not going to be pain and suffering in the hereafter. That looms in me, or resides in me, in a way that death is not scary to me. Dr. Bob: I imagine ... Well, thanks for sharing that, and I resonate with that very well. I also have this sense of how critical it is to ensure that the final phase of life, before we move into the hereafter, that the final phase of life is as you described supported and peaceful. I think we've both seen that that can be accomplished. That with the right planning, with the right conversations, with the right support, death, the actual act of death, does not have to be traumatic and painful and a struggle. Would you agree with that? Julie Chrisco: Totally. I mean I have truly seen some situations where I've walked in and thought, "Oh, this is not going to go well." With the appropriate conversation and the team, and the family, everybody being on board and everybody collaborating to an effort to make this final chapter of a human's life the best that it can possibly be, it has been so beautiful that it often times brings me to tears because what a great way to transition. Just like you want your pregnancies and the birth of a child to be very beautiful and peaceful and wonderful, you also want that for your end of life experience. It can go really, really well, and it can be one of those things that sort of almost takes your breath away, or it brings you to a moment of complete humbleness because of how well orchestrated it can be. Dr. Bob: I love that. The orchestration part is to me; I get this image of like a beautiful symphony that everything is working together. Really it can bring you to tears. It's odd, not a lot of people would think about death that way, but I think those of us who are in this field and in a position to put those things in place, and have seen how a well-orchestrated end of life experience can go, it does feel that way. It feels like you're creating almost a work of art- Julie Chrisco: Right. Dr. Bob: By doing that. Why doesn't it happen? When doesn't it happen? In your experience, what keeps people from having that really peaceful beautiful end of life experience? Julie Chrisco: I think there's a multitude of things. I think there's the resistance to death. I think that's a huge component. Whether that resistance to death is a personal thing, like an actual patient, has the resistance to the death and therefore they sort of resist all levels of transition, or if there's a family, or friend, or whoever, caregiver situation where they're super resistant to the end of life. I think that can create turmoil and chaos in that. Another huge thing is for the patient to not have been allowed the space to explore what the end of life experience is going to be for them. I think it's a conversation that you and I are accustomed to, but I would say the norm amount of people in the world, it's not a conversation they're having. They're not telling their children or their grandchildren, or their spouses, this is how I want it to be, or they aren't even going there in their mind because if they go there in their mind, that means it's imminent, that might make the process happen faster. All those types of things I think are huge obstacles for people not being able to have the picturesque end of life experience that we all grant, or we hope for everyone. Dr. Bob: My sense is ... Yeah, I agree with all of that. My sense is that there's just a lot of avoidance. It takes a unique; I think it takes a unique sort of caregiver or healthcare professional to break through that. I feel like there's a discomfort with a lot of healthcare providers as well. Most physicians, unfortunately even doctors who are taking care of a lot of older adults, it seems like they're not having the conversations about what is coming. Julie Chrisco: Right. Dr. Bob: I see that there's probably a number of different reasons for that. One is just their inherent discomfort. They don't get trained in it, and they don't quite know how to broach it, and it creates a certain amount of discomfort. The other is I think lack of time. In the traditional healthcare system, the physicians just don't have time to be starting that conversation because it's not a 15- or 20-minute conversation. Julie Chrisco: Right. Dr. Bob: It feels to me like so much struggle can be avoided if we somehow are able to find the right mechanism to have the conversations with the patients and the families, and figure out to sort of break through the discomfort with that and resistance. That's a talent I think, so I'm not quite sure how to get the masses. I know how we do it with our patients. We have the luxury of having these relationships. We're in their homes. We have multiple opportunities to broach this. But in the kind of traditional system, we need to figure out a way to get the providers comfortable opening up those conversations. Julie Chrisco: For sure. Dr. Bob: Yeah. There's work to do still, right? Julie Chrisco: Of course. Our work is never-ending. Dr. Bob: I'm sure that in the course of your work, as in mine, we encounter people who are nearing death. They may not be, well sometimes they're days away, sometimes they could be weeks or months away. When you encounter somebody who is clearly afraid of dying, and sometimes they don't quite know why they just know that the whole idea is really just terrifying to them, what are your, how do you tend to approach that? Do you have a process or a system that you use? Julie Chrisco: I would honestly, I will say that I think the fear of death stems from numerous reasons. It's really important for me as the provider to sit down and have a conversation with them about where does this fear stem from. It could be the fear of the unknown about what happens in the hereafter. It could be the fear of how this process will go, the symptomatology that may evolve. Will it be painful? Will I suffer? Those types of things. Or it could be a fear of what's going to happen to my loved ones when I'm gone. Being a mother of young boys, I would honestly say that the only worry I have about not being here tomorrow would be how will my kids function the way that they function now without me. I think you have to start the conversation by really understanding what fears them. Older patients don't really so much worry about their kids and how they're going to function because they're adults, and they have their own lives. I guess getting to the source of what the fear is, whatever the reason for the fear. Then I would encourage a conversation about the reason, and try to understand why and where it stems from. I may want to show them some of my own personal stories about death and dying to create a perspective on the situation. Because I've been so blessed to be involved in numerous end of life, from young people to old people, and personal family members, I can gleam a little bit of personal perspective, even though that's not always necessarily what they want, but I just try to help them understand, or try to have them identify the fear and realize and determine whether it's a true fear, like if it's a real thing, or if it's a fear that they've sort of built up. Real fear is, yes, there's a lion coming at me, or I'm going to fall off a bridge. Or is something that they're just, they've built up to be a fear and when you can break it down, or minimize and talk through all of the components of the fear, is it a legitimate fear or is it something we can talk through and work out. Death, as I've said, can be a beautiful continuum of life. I would strongly reassure people not to fear the unknown. There's a large difference between perceived fear and real fear. To focus on the fear of the unknown is really a perceived fear, and you can ... When you identify that it's not a legitimate fear, it's something that we've sort of created through a conversation in our heads, then you can minimize that quite a bit. Dr. Bob: Yup. That's awesome. That's some really great insight and advice. I completely agree that the, I think the key, in my experience, the key is like you say identifying the fear, bringing it into the light. When it's lurking in the shadows, when it's just stuck back in the recesses of our mind, occasionally shooting out its little tendrils, there's no way to really deal with it, manage it effectively. It really does need to be brought out. In that way, then we can help people understand where it stems from and get a better sense of like you say, whether it's based on reality or it's based on some stories that they've been told or have for whatever reason come to believe. Julie Chrisco: Right. Dr. Bob: I'll tell you with my patients, like you I get to know them incredibly well. We spend a lot of time together. One of the things that I truly feel the most blessed about and have the most gratitude for is being in that space of communicating with people, sharing intimately with them when they know their life is coming to an end. The wisdom that comes up, just the true humanity that gets shared, and I get to be a part of, is a gift beyond anything I could have imagined. What I find is that very few people have this sort of existential angst, especially as you get into the really later years. Most of them either believe in an afterlife of some kind and they're comfortable with that, or they think that everything is just over, there is no afterlife, it's just this is it, when they're gone, they're gone. Those people, for the most part, are comfortable with either. What is really keeping people awake and kind of freaking them out, is how they're going to die. What's it going to be like at the very end? Are they going to be in pain? Are they going to be struggling to breathe? Are they going to be aware of what's happening and unable to do anything about it? I think that this is a fairly ubiquitous fear that the final moments of life are going to be terrifying. When we get to assure our patients and their families that that will not happen, that we are incredibly skilled at making sure that there is no struggle that people will perceive of when their life is ending, it almost, it changes everything for them. Julie Chrisco: Yeah. Dr. Bob: They can have this peace that well whatever is happening is happening. I can't necessarily change what's going to happen, but now I feel like I don't have to worry that it's going to be terrifying and that I'm going to struggle. Once they have that, and once the families feel that way, there's just palpable relief. Everything from that point forward feels a little bit better, or a lot better, or amazingly better. Have you experienced that as well? Julie Chrisco: Yeah for sure. For sure. When you can ... I mean just even in a conversation, an hour or a two-hour visit with a patient and family, and allowing the conversation to happen. Then when you leave that visit, they're like a whole different body of people. The patient feels better. The family feels better. Everybody's sort of at ease in a place that you didn't know existed for them because when you met them, or when you started the conversation, everybody was so angst and everything was intense. Really it's my goal when I communicate with people is to generate some ease, to generate some comfort in knowing that A, I'm going to be there. I'm your resource, and I'm going to be there no matter what you need. You can call me; you can reach out to me. I'm here for you. And to create that whole I've been through this hundreds of time, and I can tell you from past experiences here's the way it can be, and here's what we're going to do for your loved one to make sure that it looks like that. Dr. Bob: Yeah. That's a beautiful thing. Not everyone does that. That doesn't happen universally. One of the things that I tell people about when they're looking for that support for the end of life phase, when they're looking for a hospice agency or physician care, that they really have to, that there are people who care as deeply as we do and are willing to be there and make those assurances, but it's not a sure thing. People need to be, and families, need to be advocating strongly for themselves and on behalf of their loved ones to find those resources, to find those people who can give them that assurance. It's there, but it's not a given that just because you get on hospice that that's the kind of support and care and assurance you're going to receive. People like you, and I'll say me, we're out there, but we're not everywhere. Julie Chrisco: Unfortunately we're not. Dr. Bob: I think, and I don't know why ... Well, I guess I do know why, but I feel like it's so unfortunate when people are having this experience, and they're living with this fear, and those fears are either not addressed, or they're not brought out. People will sometimes continue having that intense level of fear up until the time that they're taking their last breaths. If the conversations haven't happened, if the connection hasn't happened where somebody is coming in to personally assure you that they will be there to give you and do whatever is necessary to maximize your comfort and minimize your distress, there are unfortunately people who are dying with a lot of distress and fear. Would you agree with that? Julie Chrisco: Yes, definitely. Dr. Bob: So what really irks me, and I guess part of what our mission is, is to see that that doesn't happen when it can be avoided, which is I would say the vast majority of the time. Julie Chrisco: Yeah. Dr. Bob: We continue to have great work to do. I'm really grateful that you have the same passion for that, and the philosophy, and just the comfort of being that person who's going to be there for people to support them regardless of what they're going through. I didn't get a chance to sort of introduce you more thoroughly and talk about all of your incredible accolades, and your education and training, but I do want to if I could just read the last part of what you have in your biography because I think it's really poignant and it will help people get a better sense of ... I think people get a sense of who you are just from listening to this conversation, but I'm going to read this anyway if that's okay. Julie Chrisco: Yeah, that's great. Dr. Bob: Julie is extremely passionate about allowing patients to do what is best for themselves and creating a journey that augments their wishes. She enjoys working with a team of professionals to enhance the quality of life for our patients and their families. Julie is currently working at Integrated MD Care, that's us, where her love of human beings and her drive to produce the highest level of care go hand in hand. That's beautiful, and that's what it's really about right. It's about love for people. Julie Chrisco: And that at the end of the day is why I love my job, and I can get up every morning and say I love what I do. Really all this work is connecting with humans and then using some knowledge that I gained through nursing to make it a little better. But at the end of the day, really it's just about making a human connection and allowing people to know that I'm going to do the best I can for them, and provide the best level of care, and love them no matter who they are, what color their skin is, where they come from spiritually, no matter who they are as a human being. That's the benefit of this work, the human connection and the relationships that I get to build with these people. That's what makes getting up every morning so meaningful for me. Dr. Bob: I get that, and I so appreciate it. That's why you are such a valued member of our team. I guess the one thing ... I want to cut this off before too long because we could continue this conversation for hours, but that love of people, that human connection, it's so integral as life is winding down and in the very final stage of life. But what's been amazing to me, and I think you're seeing this now as a member of the team, is when we introduce that, our style of care, this total love for people and desire for personal connection, and we bring that into the care plan of people who aren't necessarily dying, who are just elderly, they're people with dementia, they're people with other health challenges. When we bring people, who feel the same way, who are there to make connections, and then just to facilitate and bring their own unique talents and skills to the mix, people they blossom. People who had a prognosis of a month or two to live because of lymphoma, or people who have heart failure, or there's a myriad of different conditions and things that we've seen, we start bringing in massage therapists and music therapists, people who work with them on breathing exercises, or physical exercises, and with the basic tenant of making human connection and trying to improve a person's life moment by moment, that is so powerful. It's just kind of blowing my mind to see that happening time and time again. Julie Chrisco: For sure. Dr. Bob: I get passionate about that. Julie, it was really wonderful to have the conversation with you. I wanted to share you with the listeners. Over time, I imagine that we'll have an opportunity to come on together again and provide updates on how things are going with the practice and our lives. Thank you very much for being here. Julie Chrisco: Thank you for inviting me. This was a great conversation.
Hemlock Society San Diego (619) 233-4418 In this episode, Faye Girsh talks about the Right To Die and why she continues to support the movement. Faye was the President of the Hemlock Society USA from 1996-2002 and Senior Vice President of End-of-Life Choices (Hemlock's temporary name) from 2002-2004. She had served on Hemlock's national board and essentially succeeded its founder, Derek Humphry. While President of the Hemlock Society she started the Caring Friends program, in 1998, which provided free, personal information and bedside support to Hemlock members considering a hastened death. For the last 25 years, she has appeared in debates and speeches all over the U.S. and has been on national TV and radio, including Court TV, Good Morning America, and Nightline. She was a speaker at the World Federation Conference in Melbourne, Toronto, Tokyo, and Amsterdam and has spoken at law schools, medical schools, civic groups, universities, and to many other audiences in this country, Great Britain, Canada, New Zealand and Australia. Transcript Dr. Bob: Well, hello and welcome to another episode of A Life and Death Conversation. I'm Dr. Bob Uslander, the founder of Integrated MD Care and the host of this series of podcasts. I have a very special guest with me today. All of my guests are special in some way or another, but Faye Girsh is a phenomenal woman. She is truly a ... I don't know. Some people I've heard to describe her as a marvel and an inspiration, so I'm thrilled to introduce you to my dear friend and co-conspirator, Faye Girsh. Faye Girsh: Hello, Bob. If you're looking for a wonder woman, I'm not it, but I'm very happy to expound on our mutually interesting subject. Dr. Bob: Fantastic. And many people would argue that point and would call you a wonder woman, because you've had a fascinating life, and I know a very interesting career, and the things that you've devoted yourself to and committed yourself to are of great importance to many of the people who are listening, because this is a life and death conversation and to me, you have really lived a very inspiring life, and you never shy away from the conversation about death. And you're somebody who has really devoted herself to helping others have the best possible experience of life and as well the best possible experience of death. Faye Girsh: Thank you for all that. Dr. Bob: And thank you for all that you've done, because what I get to do in my career, some of what gives my life and my career a great meaning is a direct result of the work that you've done over the years. Faye Girsh: It's very encouraging now that there are so many people working on this very important issue for all of us. Dr. Bob: And the issue that you're referring to it's called by lots of different things. When you're talking to somebody about what it is that you do and what you've devoted so much of your life to, what are the words that you like to use to describe it? Faye Girsh: I guess choices at the end of life, if I have less than 30 seconds, that people should be able to die the way they want to, in a humane and peaceful way, with their friends and loved ones present, and consistent with their own values and beliefs. That's the 45-second version. Dr. Bob: Actually, I think it was probably closer to 20 seconds, and it's- Faye Girsh: 20 seconds, okay. Dr. Bob: ... very descriptive and appropriate, I think. Faye Girsh: It sounds very simple too, and it's definitely not simple. In fact, the progress towards it is absolutely glacial because many people don't believe that we should have a choice in how we die, which to me is amazing and also very unjust, unfair. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I agree. And you can spend a lot of time exploring how we got here, and I'm sure there's some value in that because it helps those of us who really do believe that people deserve to have that choice in how, where and when they die. It helps us to see where the challenges remain, by looking at the barriers and the things that have been blocking that- Faye Girsh: You know, I'm reading an interesting book now, Bob, called Modern Death. I don't know if you've seen it. By a Pakistani American doctor named Haider Warraich. I don't know how you pronounce his name exactly. But he talks about how the way we die has changed so much in the last 50 years because of technology, insurance, hospital, everything. It explains a lot to me about how things have changed from when I was a kid, and the doctor would make house calls, and I assume that if we were dying, he would have given us a nice injection and sent us on our way, with the agreement of the family, but it's a long way from that now. It's a little bit back to what you do when you visit people at their homes, which is so unusual these days. Dr. Bob: That does sound like an interesting book, and I'd like to make sure that the listeners have the resources that our very experienced guests are recommending. So "Modern Death" is the name of that book? Faye Girsh: Yeah. Dr. Bob: I'm going to pick up a copy. I appreciate that. Faye Girsh: Subtitled "How Medicine Changed the End of Life". Very interesting. I haven't finished it yet. I don't think he is necessarily a proponent of medically assisted dying, but he certainly leads up to where it should happen. Because I do think that probably 40 years ago, your GP – there weren't specialties then – your GP would come to your house and if you and your family decided that your suffering was unbearable, something in his black bag would help you through to the other side, just to use all these euphemisms. But that's changed, and the laws have changed. The laws are changing for the better for sure, as far as giving you more choice at the end of life, but it becomes very legalistic and formalistic. And maybe that's good because now there are safeguards, but when men safeguard, they're another man's obstacles. It has become cumbersome and complicated sometimes for people to have a peaceful death. Dr. Bob: Well, it seems like it used to be a pact between the doctor and the patient and family. We didn't need all the legislation; people trusted that their physician was going to be there and help them make those difficult decisions knowing it was time. We also didn't have all the other options available. We didn't have all the intensive care units with all of the life-prolonging technology. We didn't have skilled nursing facilities, where people could be housed for months or years- Faye Girsh: Well, actually we didn't even live that long. We didn't live long enough to have a prolonged and agonizing death. We didn't die of these degenerative diseases that we have now. So, yeah. I mean, this book explains a lot of that, but this is something that we've sort of accustomed ourselves to over the years, ways to keep people alive. Faye: I live in a retirement community. I'm 84, and it's getting close myself, and it's very interesting for me to see people, my friends, get old, get disabled, wind up in the care center, or the memory unit at worst, and die quietly. We really don't know how the end comes for most people unless they are very close friends. And then we get a little picture frame, and a white rose in the mail room and says we died. No telling how we died, or what we went through before we died. And then a little obituary says he died peacefully in his sleep, which is usually a lie. And then a little tombstone says, "Rest in peace," but before that, sometimes there is no peace, and sometimes these steps to getting dead are very difficult. Dr. Bob: Yeah, as I'm aware of through my own experience and career. That's an interesting ... it's really fascinating to think about that, living in these communities, many of which are very nice, right? They're beautiful. They're like luxury hotels or cruise ships. Faye Girsh: They are. Right. Dr. Bob: And then there are all these folks who come to the dining room, or you see them in the common areas, and at the activities, and then you just don't see them anymore. Faye Girsh: That does happen. Or you see them on walkers, and then in wheelchairs, and then you don't see them. Or if they're your neighbors, they move to the care center, which we have a very nice arrangement. And then the next thing, sometimes as you know, is their little picture and white rose are up there in the mail room. It's fine. It's a good way to experience death. We don't talk about it very much here, but I've appreciated knowing that, because in my life I wasn't among people who were dying, but now, that's what happens. And what I hope is that people can die the way they want to. And I know you spend time here too and you know the people who live here. They accomplished a lot. We say our motto in Hemlock Society is, "Good life, good death," which we actually stole from Christian Bernard, I think, who wrote a book. The heart transplant doctor wrote a book, I think, called Good Life Good Death. And many of us here have lived a very good life, but we often don't have a good death... I've only been here four years ... but who went out to [inaudible 00:10:00] parking lot and shot himself because he had early dementia. And other people who've struggled with dementia then wind up in the memory unit here for years. In fact, we're having a situation now with my very good friend, whose wife has been there I think now eight years. And they have treated her without consulting the family, but now the family has put their foot down, absolutely no treatment. So she gets nothing. No vitamins or anything. And she's never been healthier. And finally, the family's decision to withhold food and hydration. And of all the things that have happened, is the caregiver has protested and said she would sue the institution here for murder. So, that's a very interesting development. Dr. Bob: I wasn't aware that was happening. Faye Girsh: Well, if I were at lunch now, which I usually would be, I would be talking to this man whose wife it is and trying to enlist one of his children to speak at one of our Hemlock meetings on this subject, which is the refusal of treatment in dementia. A very complicated subject, because a demented person can't speak for herself or himself, but the loved ones can, the person who's been appointed as health care agent can. But often those wishes are violated. I will have another speaker at our January meeting, whose mother-in-law has been in the institution. Those who know Bonnie, was once a very active, beautiful, intelligent woman, and they had been coerced, shamed I guess is the word, into providing treatment for her twice, because she has to have her hip fixed because she fell. She has to have her ulcer treated. Even though she knows nothing it is has made an advance [inaudible 00:12:18]. She doesn't want treatment. So these things are very complicated, refusing treatment, medically futile treatment that's given so often. And hospice is not saying that they can fix everything, but really they can. They can fix a lot of the pain even, but alone the existential suffering that people have because they can't do what they are used to doing, they don't want to be doped up at the end to alleviate the pain. They want a peaceful way out, and yet they either don't know what's available to them, or they can't find a doctor who will help them use even our California law, The End of Life Option Act. So we have a long way to go. We are about to finish our 30th year as Hemlock Society of San Diego, and we're looking for new directions to go in. And for me, dementia is the direction because it seems so hopeless to be a long-time demented patient with no way out. Dr. Bob: That is just ludicrous, to think about that when there are so many people, there are so many people who, as you say, lived wonderful lives, they raised children, they had careers, they contributed, and if they were able to look at the scenario and to see what's happened to them and what's being done, and you ask them what they would want, we know that they would want to not be there. Faye Girsh: That right. Dr. Bob: They would be ready to ask somebody to mercifully end their lives. And I'm a physician, and I know that there are laws that prohibit that, and we can't just take it upon ourselves. And even if people have indicated that they would never want to be alive in those circumstances, our hands are tied. But it's just a crazy, crazy situation- Faye Girsh: Fortunately, we can look North and see what Canada is doing. And Canada is making much more progress than we are, which is not surprising of course. But the Canadian law that went into effect the same time the California law went into, that is June 2016, permits active euthanasia. That is a patient can ask for a lethal injection. It's so much better than what we have to struggle with, these expensive bad-tasting drugs that you have to be able to swallow, to use. That's not such a good solution. And also, Canadians have made their laws much more liberal. That is, it doesn't just take a doctor to do it. A nurse practitioner can help you die that way. And in our law in California, you have to have a psychologist or psychiatrist to ascertain that you are mentally competent, and another doctor to determine that you are terminal, in addition to the first doctor. But in Canada, that's not the case. A lot of different people can ascertain that you're mentally competent. And again, it doesn't have to be a doctor to provide the lethal injection. And the criteria is not a terminal illness as ours is, which to me, it is not even relevant to the question of how much you're suffering, and how long you've been suffering, and how long you have got to suffer. A terminal illness means you're going to die within six months, which in some cases is a mercy, but some of these neurodegenerative diseases take years of suffering before death occurs. So, I think we have to look to Canada to change our laws. And we've had the Oregon-type model as our model law now in six jurisdictions, five states in the district of Columbia, but that law has existed now for 20 years. To me, it's inadequate, and it's time to move forward and to look at what other countries are doing. And then, there's a whole collection of ... No, that's not true. There are some doctors and some organizations, and I'm thinking in particular of Doctor Philip Nitschke, who started in Australia and was the first doctor in the world to give somebody euthanasia at their request, under a law. And that was back in 1996. He's now living in Holland, but he doesn't believe that we should try to change the law at all. He believes that people should be able to do it yourself, get what's necessary, whether it's drugs or mechanical devices or whatever, and do it ourselves because he knows that doctors are resistant to doing this and the law is very slow to change. That's one point of view. I don't totally agree with it. I think it's very helpful to have somebody there, somebody with an organization like Final Exit Network, to be there with you, and certainly a doctor to be there with you if you can find a cooperative doctor like Doctor Bob Uslander to see you through this, because it's not just a one moment decision, you swallow something and you're dead. It's a decision that should be decided over months with consultation with your loved ones. But that is very difficult and complicated in our country. Dr. Bob: All of this is complicated for sure, so I appreciate you sharing your passion, and your viewpoints on this. If it's okay, I want to make one slight correction to one of the things that you indicated, about the process for the End of Life Option Act in California, in that it doesn't actually require a psychiatrist or a mental health specialist to weigh in- Faye Girsh: No. You're right. Dr. Bob: Only if the attending physician or the consulting physician feel that there is a mental health issue or a psychiatric issue that is impacting the person's ability to make a decision. Faye Girsh: You're right. It doesn't happen very often actually- Dr. Bob: No. Faye Girsh: That a mental health professional is required to make the decision about competency. I think in Oregon has happened very few times. We have- Dr. Bob: Yeah, because a physician is- Faye Girsh: Better data from Oregon than we have from many places else. We have 20 years of data that the government of Oregon has collected. No, you're absolutely right about that, Bob. Dr. Bob: Again, thank you for sharing. We definitely have strides to make. I think we both are feeling grateful that we have come to a place in California where people do have more choice and more options, but we do still need to continue pushing forward. There are still some issues and problems with the existing law. It doesn't address the needs of the people with cognitive impairment and dementia, and those are really challenging situations. Faye Girsh: And doctors are not being educated about what this law entails. I have a new primary care doctor that I talked to the other day at Scripps, and she didn't know anything about it. There's never been even, not only a policy described by Scripps but no education about the law at all. She didn't know what to tell me. She's going to find out and tell me later. But this is not acceptable. This is a law now, and even though everything is voluntary, so it's completely voluntary on the part of the doctor, the patient, the hospice, the pharmacist. That doesn't mean that people shouldn't be educated about it, and that's what we try to do in Hemlock. I just gave a speech to bunch of elder law attorneys, and before that to an Episcopal convention. And the more people we can talk to the better, but that's a drop in the bucket compared to the people who don't know what their rights are. And some hospitals have gone all out. Kaiser's very helpful in that respect, but my hospital, Scripps Clinic, they don't seem to know anything. It requires a massive educational effort, and it requires a little more cooperation and enthusiasm on the part of doctors and institutions, and definitely on the part of hospices. I think it's a disgrace that no hospice that we know of in this county will actually provide a doctor to do this for you. Many of them will refer to you, which is fine, but I think hospices should be able to assure a patient who comes for hospice care that if their suffering becomes too great, or they've had enough, that somebody will help them achieve a gentle death, which is what happens in Canada now, especially in Quebec, which has been the leader in this. The formally very Catholic province now, very progressive. And in Belgium and Holland. Their hospices will also provide peaceful death, voluntary euthanasia, but not ours. Dr. Bob: Not ours. Faye Girsh: And ours maintain that they can do everything in make dying fine for you and many of them can. I have no question about that. But for many people, there needs to be another option. Dr. Bob: And I always think about that when we hear from the palliative care and hospice folks, who are all very well-meaning, and compassionate, and they make it very clear that if the suffering becomes too great, then we can medicate people into unconsciousness. It's called palliative sedation, where you get medication so that you're no longer aware of your surroundings, no longer feeling pain, no longer feeling like you're struggling to breathe. And once you get medicated to that level, you will no longer be able to eat or drink, you won't have any nutrition, and eventually, you'll die of dehydration. And I understand that that is possible, and we for years have been doing that for or to patients. And my response to it is, if somebody has another option if somebody has the option of actually taking something on their own that will prevent that from being necessary, that they have the control, they get some of their power back, why wouldn't we want to make that available to them? Faye Girsh: I have debated that with so many hospice directors and doctors and nurses. I can't understand why the answer is not as simple as you make it. I mean, palliative sedation is very nice. I remember debating one hospice director, I guess she was, and she said, "No. Doctors should never help their patients die, never." But later she said, "When I see a patient in intractable suffering ..." well, she said pain, initially, but she was talking about suffering, " ... then, of course, I will administer something that will relieve them, and they won't wake up." Isn't that what I just said? No. Because the doctor has control over the decision, not the patient. Dr. Bob: Exactly. And I believe that's- Faye Girsh: And that's wrong. Dr. Bob: That's where the big divide is. The medical profession has so much ego, and we are unwilling to give control away. So instead of giving the patient and the family the ability to be empowered to have the option to act on their own, to make this determination, we need to do it for them or to them. We don't believe that people have the intelligence or the ability to make this determination of what's in their best interest. Faye Girsh: I'm not a great critic of the medical profession because I was married to one and I have given birth to one, and I like doctors very much in general. I've always liked the doctors I've had. It's some kind of paradox. I guess it's like politicians, you like the one you have, but then generally they're no good. I don't know what they need, education or something, and they need to be assured that they're protected from the law, because even though this law that we have, The End of Life Option Act, is clear that if a doctor does this, he or she is fully protected under the law. Somehow doctors don't believe it, and – again another generalization about what doctors think or do – they don't like to be bothered. There's a lot of paperwork ... you know this ... involved, there is not just, "Let's see. I write the prescription. Goodbye." You really should attend to your patients; you should find out what's going on with them. So they should be involved, and they don't want to be involved because that's not their job. I just saw a cartoon recently that said, "I'm a doctor, and I believe in preserving life at any cost." And the cartoons said, "Make sure you don't get that doctor." I mean, it's very nice. I do like people who are pro-life but up to a point. Up to the point where the patient says, "Okay. Death is not the worst option here. Staying alive under these conditions is worse, and I want to die gently and peacefully. And I don't want it to be a big secret, and I don't want to jeopardize anyone by helping me. Let's do it." And there's certainly more places in the world that are enlightened about this than we are. Dr. Bob: And I believe we're moving in the right direction as we both stated before. We have a lot of work to do, but we don't want to discount the fact that we are certainly in a better position than we were a couple years ago here in California. I try not to be critical of physicians. Many of my very good friends are physicians. I have spent a lot of time with some amazing physicians, and I think in general, doctors really do care a lot about people. They go into the profession because they're caring, and they want to help, and they want to do good. And it's not that they, in general, don't want to be bothered. They don't have the time; they're not allowed to have the kind of time that it takes to do this well. Many physicians are still very uncomfortable with the whole notion of death. When you go to medical school, and in your training, you would assume that there is no such thing as death because it's really never talked about. The textbooks don't mention anything about death. It's all about what we can do, how we can utilize the technology available to us, how we can do the right screening and prescribe people the- Faye Girsh: To prevent this from happening. Dr. Bob: So the training isn't there. A lot of people, I think, have to go through their own personal experience, they have to go through their own personal journey. Maybe have their own epiphany about what their role here is, and how they can best serve their patients. Faye Girsh: Bob, present company excluded, I don't think doctors need to be the agents of a peaceful death. In fact, when I was head of the National Hemlock Society, I started this program called Caring Friends where we educated our peers, older people like us ... I mean, I'm talking about the members of the Hemlock Society now, not you ... to work with people in their homes and tell them what means they could use to achieve a peaceful death, short of getting the drugs necessary. And there are many means. And of course one of them is not eating and drinking, but that's not the one we advocate. I'm talking now about the national organization called "Final Exit Network," which I was one of the founders, and that emanated from the Caring Friends program that I started at Hemlock. And we knew that doctors were not going to help, that we're not going to be able to get these drugs, which is the gold standard, but there are other ways. Now I'm using my Final Exit Network hat here–the guys at Final Exit Network teach people how to die peacefully, not using drugs, but using other means, which essentially lowers the oxygen in the brain, which causes a peaceful death but doesn't require drugs. And there's an organization, a very loose organization, called Nutech, which has been working on this now for years, maybe 15 years, also started by Derek Humphry who started the Hemlock Society, New Techniques in Self-Deliverance. And I just went to a Nutech meeting in Toronto, where people from all over the world were there. It was a $5,000 reward for people who could come up with the best inventions so that people could do it themselves and die peacefully. So we're a long way from making an ideal situation, but there are situations that people can use, but that's not enough. I always gave the prototype of an 85-year-old woman. I'm about to be that. But an older person who's alone, who's sick, who may be partially blind, who is not mechanically inclined, a limit to what they can do to do this for themselves. So we do think that people should be there with them, and that's what they do in Final Exit Network. The Exit guide is present when people use these methods, and coaches them in how to use them. And we think we're covered under the First Amendment, but there's some litigation going on, which has challenged that assumption. Dr. Bob: Not surprising. Faye Girsh: No. But there are books, and videotapes, and YouTubes telling you how to end your life peacefully. And that certainly has its drawbacks because we don't believe that ... I mean, I am a psychologist by training, and I've worked with a lot of suicidal people, who with therapy have come to realize that suicide is not the answer to their problems. And it isn't. And there's a fine line between assisted dying and suicide, but generally, people who want help in dying would much prefer to live, but because of their disease or condition find that dying is preferable to living that way, whereas suicidal people don't want to live. They want to die. That's the difference. So if you make these methods available, then suicidal people have access to them, and that's arguable too. I mean, maybe it's better that they die peacefully than jump off bridges, as one of my very good friends did, or shoot themselves, as another very good friend did, and they could choose to die peacefully. That's a whole another discussion. Dr. Bob: Yeah. That's a whole another discussion. And I'm just thinking about, as I'm hearing you speak and discussing these topics that are certainly not part of the mainstream conversation that people are having, I'm just imagining that there are going to be people listening to this, who are squirming and feeling uncomfortable about these topics. And you know what? And that's okay. Faye Girsh: No doubt. Dr. Bob: These are things that we all really should explore and try to determine our own comfort level with them, and hopefully become more comfortable engaging in the entire spectrum of conversations about life and death. Faye Girsh: The Hemlock Society of San Diego, which has existed now for 30 years, is at a juncture of where to go next. We can continue having meetings and having speakers and everything else, but we do have to tackle these very naughty issues. And we are tackling them. Maybe we're the only organization in town if anywhere, that is doing it, but it does make people squirm. But we have a lot of people come to our meetings. They're all free. They're all open to the public, and they all deal with different issues about dying. To one meeting we had three veterinarians who talked about how they can help animals dying. It's so nice. Everybody was so jealous they wanted to grow two extra legs and a tail and be one of these animals that die in the arms of their loved one, peacefully and gently. A little shot in the paw and that's it. And then I've been a defender of Jack Kevorkian all these years. I thought, when he showed how his patient Tom Youk died, to 60 million viewers, that was a good thing, that we don't see people actually die and we don't even die on ICUs, or even in hospices. We don't see them junked out with drugs for days on end. We never see how people die except fictional, machine guns and that kind of thing. To see somebody get a lethal injection, keel over and he's dead, and how simple that was, and how desperately he longed for that relief from his ALS. This was the last patient that Doctor Kevorkian helped. And for that, Doctor Kevorkian spent eight years in prison doing a 10- to 25-year sentence that he got. For a doctor to come out and say this is what's important for doctors to do ... and the thing about Jack Kevorkian was there was nobody in the world practically, unless you were in the middle of a jungle somewhere, who hadn't heard of him, who didn't have an opinion about him, and who hadn't heard from his own patients why they wanted to die. And that kind of education thought, at that point, when Jack Kevorkian was I think in his seventh or eighth year of doing this, 75% of Americans believed that people should have assisted dying from a doctor. That's gone down considerably, because people don't hear about this, they don't engage in the dialogue, their doctors don't talk about it certainly, and it's up to us, the Hemlock Society of San Diego, and a few other organizations, to discuss this openly, so people know what the issues are. Dr. Bob: On that note, I think we're going to kind of wrap it up, but I do want to make sure that anybody who is interested in getting more information about anything that we've spoken about, that you've shared, has direction on how to get that information. I want to thank you for being a pioneer and for dedicating so much of your time and energy and money to this effort. There are many, many people who are indebted to you and have gratitude for the work that you and your tribe, your peers have done. Faye Girsh: Thank you very much, Bob. Dr. Bob: You're welcome. Faye Girsh: I'm getting to the point where a peaceful death is becoming more of an immediate issue, so I'm working extra hard, but I'm very glad you're around. Very comforting to me and many other people. Dr. Bob: And seeing you and being around you, you have vital energy, and I don't think it's going to be dissipating anytime soon. How do people learn more about the work that you're doing? Faye Girsh: Well, we have a website that's very informative, HemlockSocietySanDiego.org. And that will give you our phone number, which is 619-233-4418. We have, of course, an email address, which is ... I'm not even sure what it is. Dr. Bob: I'm sure they can get it off of the website, right? Faye Girsh: The website has all this information. And people are welcome to get on our email list to get a notification of our monthly meetings. And they're welcome to come, no charge. Although we will be having special meetings, I think now, for Hemlock members that we don't particularly want to share with the public, but that's another issue. Because we want people to be empowered the best way they can about ways to have a peaceful death. And not only for them, but we're having more young people come because their parents are dealing with this issue, or not dealing with it. Dr. Bob: And I've been to meetings, I've spoken at the meetings, and there's a wealth of information, and really some pretty incredible people there. I find that the level of intelligence and acceptance among the people who are really paying attention to these issues is very high. Faye Girsh: Yeah. And you've gotten to know some of them. Dr. Bob: I sure have. Faye Girsh: The ones that have had a peaceful death with your assistance. Maybe that's not the right word, but I don't know- Dr. Bob: That's fine. Faye Girsh: ... one has to be a very good- Dr. Bob: With my guidance. Faye Girsh: Guidance is a good word. Dr. Bob: And I've shared with our listeners some of the experiences that I've had and how powerful they've been. And the more people that I'm able to support and be with, the more strongly I feel about helping to spread the message and allow more people to understand how they can get this control, how can they be empowered when their life is coming to an end, and they're just like many of the people we've discussed. They're just not okay allowing this natural decline to decimate them further when they have a more peaceful, gentle option available. Faye Girsh: Thank you for doing this, Bob. And thank you for doing the podcast. I appreciate having an opportunity to talk about this. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Well, you're so articulate and passionate, and I look forward to our next conversation together. Faye Girsh: Absolutely. Dr. Bob: This is Doctor Bob Uslander, A Life and Death Conversation, until next time.
Derek Humpry is an author and principal founder of the Hemlock Society (now Compassion & Choices). Derek shares his poignant story about helping his wife, who was terminally ill, end her life and how he founded the Hemlock Society. Derek's website: FinalExit.org Transcript Dr. Bob: Welcome to A Life and Death Conversation with Dr. Bob Uslander. I'm very excited to introduce you to today's guest, who is a gentleman who I recently had the pleasure of meeting and listening to during a presentation at a conference. And I just knew when I met and heard him speak that he is somebody who you needed to hear from. I could go on for quite a long time listing his achievements and his accolades in this introduction, but I don't want to take too much of our valuable time away from the conversation, so I will just give a little glimpse of the instruction to Mr. Derek Humphry, who is the founder of the Hemlock Society of the USA, past president of the World Federation of Right to Die Societies, and Derek has been an incredibly strong proponent of people having the ability to determine how and when they their lives will end when they are struggling. He's been very active through his entire life in this regard and is in large part responsible for the movement through in this country that is certainly effective here on the West Coast, in California, in Oregon, in Washington that has allowed people to have a peaceful end of life. And I owe him gratitude because he has allowed me to delve into a part of my career that has really been incredibly gratifying, and he's brought great relief to many, many people around the world. So, Derek, I just want to introduce you and thank you from the bottom of my heart for all that you've done. So welcome. Derek Humphry: Well, hello. Thank you very much for inviting me. It's been a worthwhile journey. I founded the Hemlock Society in 1980 when I lived in Santa Monica and developed it from there. And it was, I didn't do it in any obviously pioneering way thought, but it proved to be the start of the right-to-choose-to-die movement in America as we grew and grew and fought off our critics and published little books and held conferences, the right-to-choose-to-die movement swelled and improved across America ever since 1980. Dr. Bob: So let me ask, how did this all start? I know, and I heard the story, but I'd like people to hear where this movement originated and how it started for you. Derek Humphry: Yes. I was living in London. I was a reporter on the London Sunday Times. And I had a good marriage, a wife, and three sons, and we were getting along fine. And it's great fun bringing up three sons. But suddenly in 1973 my wife, Jean, said that she had a lump in her breast. We rushed her to the hospital, and various testing and so forth. And they had to perform a radical mastectomy, much to her shock and all of our shock. She recovered from that as best she could, but we have further testing of her lymph nodes and blood count and all the rest of it. And it showed that she had cancer deep in her system. It was too late. But we fought, and she fought, took all medical help available, kept her spirits up looking after the family and so forth. She kept it only in a close circle of friends or family did she say that she had cancer. But in about a year it turned to bone cancer, very painful, very difficult to be moving at all except with heavy pain medications. And then after nearly two years, it was really serious, and she nearly died. She was in the hospital in Oxford, England, getting the best treatment that was available back in 1975, and she recovered from one bout, and the doctor thought she wouldn't come out of that. But she did, and she had a fighting spirit. Then came my epiphany. She sat up in bed feeling pretty well in the hospital bed, and I was visiting her. And she said, "Derek, I want you to do something for me." I said, "What's that?" She said, "I've had enough of this pain and unconsciousness. It's getting near the end. I want to die at home. I don't want ..." She took hospitals pretty well, but she was in the cancer ward, and she'd seen too many people die with the families rushing in in the middle of the night to say their goodbyes and a lot of pain and tears. She said, "I want to die at home. I also want to end my life at the point when I feel the quality of my life is gone and that there's no more hope and no more chance of living. And I want you to help me." There wasn't a right-to-die movement in America or Britain to speak of. There were little token meetings, but it was not a subject of public discussion or knowledge. I think I would have had to go to a dictionary to look up the word euthanasia or so forth. I said, "What do you want me to do?" She said, "I want you to go ..." In a way, she prefigured the laws. She didn't know she was doing this, prefigured the laws that are coming into place in six states in America. And she said, "I want you to go to a doctor, explain what the situation is, and ask him for lethal drugs in which at the time of my choosing, I'm not ready yet, but it won't be far off, time of my choosing, I want to be able to take my life immediately in my bed at home with family nearby and so forth." I said instinctively, I know I didn't philosophize about it or ... "Okay. I'll help you." And- Dr. Bob: Do you recall what your initial reaction was to that? Of course, you wanted to be supportive, but did you have ... Do you remember how you felt about doing that at the time, conflicted? Derek Humphry: I remember saying to her, "If I was in your position, I would be asking you the same," so that I comforted her by saying, "We're on the same wavelength." I didn't want her to die at all, but having seen her pain and suffering for the last two years, well, understood why she would ask. She was a very strong, independent woman and knew her own mind. She'd seen her mother die about 10 years earlier of lung cancer, and she had to be with her father at her mother's bedside. I wasn't there. I was looking after the children somewhere else. The mother died an awful death apparently. She didn't realize she was dying, and the pain control was terrible. If I'd known about it at the time, I would have lodged a complaint against the doctor. But I wasn't on the scene. But this obviously triggered in Jean that when her time was closing, that she was going to do it differently than her poor mother had dealt with it. So I went to ... I puzzled over what I should do, how to get the drugs, and I thought, "I don't want to involve her own GP or lead cancer specialist in Oxford." I didn't feel it was right to involve them. They were good people, good men, and women, very helpful, but I've been a journalist in London. I knew a certain doctor who we'd worked on stories about medicine before, and I thought, "That's the fellow." So I went to see him, took him to dinner, and I said to him, told him what the situation was, and he questioned me closely about Jean's illness, the state it was, what we'd been through, roughly what sort of medications and so forth, and where she was. He turned to me and said, "She has no quality of life left. I will help." And he gave me the lethal drugs with which to; she could end her life. We shook hands on the bargain that I would never reveal his name, that that would be secret, and it's been secret to this day, although people have asked me who he was. I took the drugs home. I said to Jean, "I have the drugs. They're locked away in the medicine cabinet out of the way." And we got on with life, and she got on with life as best she could. She took another chemotherapy, which gave some momentary relief. And we had a happy Christmas in the end of 1974; I think that was. And then but by February, March, she was very, very ill and taking a great deal of what in England they call hospice mix. No, in America they call it hospice mix. In England, it's called Brompton cocktail. It's a mixture of drugs that suit one's particular illness. It's a sort of trial and error until the doctors can work out what this particular patient handles best. So we had that. And we continued, and things got worse. Then her ribs broke in a sort of accident, and that seemed to be her benchmark. She couldn't get to the bathroom anymore. She could hardly move. She couldn't get up in bed without a massive amount of painkillers. She couldn't sit up in bed. And I knew the end was coming, and I knew this question was going to come, so I was thinking about it but saying nothing. Then one day I got her to sit, managed to get her to sit up after taking the pain medications, and she calmly turned to me, and she said, "Is this the day?" That's a pretty rough question to answer when you're the ... We'd been married for 22 years and three children and had a happy life together. And I sort of gulped and said, "Well, if the pain is getting worse, you'll probably have ..." I was sort of stalling for the moment. I didn't want to rush an answer. "You'll probably have to go back into the hospital at the end of the week for more pain relief." And she said, "I'll die at one o'clock today." And so that was ... She was a very outspoken north country English woman and- Dr. Bob: Knew her mind. Derek Humphry: ... we talked all morning, and we shared our memories. The marriage had been very solid, but we'd had two quarrels, one over which house to buy and one over my moving to London from Manchester. We'd settled them, but she brought them up, and she said, "Well, I was right about the house, and you were right about moving to London." So we settled the two quarrels that we had. And she told me to go tell her father what had happened so that it wasn't like her mother's death, that hers was much more straightforward. At one o'clock, if she hadn't said, "Get it," I would have just continued talking. I left it, the initial movement, I left up to her. At one o'clock she said, "Go and get it." So I went and got the doctor's drugs, mixed them in a cup of coffee, put a lot of sugar in, and brought it back to her. I told the boys were lying around in the house. The previous evening Jean had sent me on a fool's errand to get something from the supermarket, and during that, my absence, she called in the boys and told them that she was going to die tomorrow. I was not part of that. She wanted me out of it for that communication with her sons. Dr. Bob : How old were the boys at that point, Derek? Do you recall? Derek Humphry: Sort of 17, 18, 19. I can't remember exactly. Dr. Bob: So young men. They were- Derek Humphry: But late teens. Yes, young men. And they'd seen her suffering. They'd helped me nurse her, helped. When I was absent, they would provide her drugs and things like that. They knew the situation, and they knew their mother was a determined woman. If she said something was going to happen and she was going to do, then she was going to do it. So I took the drugs in to her. As I passed through the living room, I said to the boys, "She's preparing to die," so that they were up to mark on it. I put the drugs down beside her, and she said, "Is that it?" I said, "Yes. If you drink that cup of coffee, you will die." She accepted that. I got on the bed and gave her a last hug and a kiss. We said our goodbyes. I got back on my chair so that she could lift the coffee straight up without ... And she picked up the mug of coffee and gulped it down, drink it down. And I sat there watching in awe. And before she passed out, she said, "Goodbye, my love." And that was it. She lingered for a while. Then she vomited a little, which frightened me. I thought, "Oh, dear." I didn't know at the time that right to die was not a subject of ... I never investigated closely or not ... She should've taken some antiemetics. Dr. Bob: As we do now. Derek Humphry: ... to prepare the stomach for that extremely toxic drug that was going to kill her. Anyway, she didn't vomit all that much. And she just quietly died. Dr. Bob: Were the boys with you at the time? Were they in the room or were they? Derek Humphry: No. They were in the next room. But when I went out of the room, I know they went into the room when she was dead and apparently said goodbye to their mother, and after my presence. And I called the local GP who looked after her for about two years and told him that Jean was dead. And he came out. He said, "I'll be around in an hour or so and sign the death certificate." When he came in and looked at her, and I kept out of the room deliberately. I didn't want to muddy the waters in any way or whatnot. And I was out in the garden, but he wrote down death from carcinomatosis, massive cancer. If he'd wanted to speak to me, I was there in the garden, and he could've called and said, "I want to talk to you, Derek," but he didn't. And he thought it was a natural death from her powerful cancer. Dr. Bob: Which it would've been before too long had she not taken this step. Derek Humphry: Yes. Dr. Bob: But it would've come after quite a bit, potentially quite a bit more struggle and suffering, right? Derek Humphry: Yes. Well, certainly she would've been dead within a month. That was definitely on the cards. Her doctors had told me that they would look ... They'd say, "She can come in to Oxford Hospital, and we'll look after her, or she can die at home." And I said, "She wants to die at home." And they said, "Fine. We'll provide as much comfort as we can." So that was how it ended. Dr. Bob: And that was 40 ... How old was she? Derek Humphry: She as 42. Dr. Bob: And that was 43 years ago, 1974. Derek Humphry: Yes. Dr. Bob: So 43 years ago. It sounds like you can ... I know that you've told this story not just a few times over the years, but it sounds like you can almost, it's almost like it was yesterday. You seem so clear that you can recollect the details so clearly. Derek Humphry: Yes. And she was so clear. She wasn't one who would aggravate over things. She wouldn't ... She'd talk things over, "What is this? What is that?" We'd had a pact that when she first asked me to help her that it would be a joint decision. She said, "I could be made woozy by all these drugs." And she said to me, "Back at the first opening of this, she said, "If I'm asking to die at the wrong time because there's been a cure for cancer or if there's more to do, don't help me. It's a joint decision." And so I went along with that. You have to stand by your partners at the worst of times. Dr. Bob: Well, she certainly sounded like she was very clear and wasn't hesitating at the time. And her strength, and her fortitude, and her clarity have had such a significant impact on many lives from that. Had she not made that decision, had she not asked you to support her in this way, it's hard to know what would have transpired and how the right-to-die movement might or might not have developed over time. So can you share how things developed from that point and how her gentle and peaceful death ended up leading to the next steps for you? Derek Humphry: Well, I had written. I was, what, 45 at the time, and I had published three non-fiction books, had modest effect with them. So I was a published author. So I decided to write a little book about this. I was rather ... I studied the subject after Jean died--no, before and after. And I went into the library of the Times of London, and I read up all the assisted suicide cases for the last 50 years. And what struck me was that here were spouses, male and female, dragged into court. Assisted suicide was and is a crime in Britain. And I was shocked by what I read in modern history about this. And what really struck me was that these people that I could see were never sent to prison although they were vulnerable to 12 years in prison, the maximum sentence. But the judge would always say, "You've done wrong, but it was done in a spirit of compassion." Then he would suspend the sentence or put them on probation and things like that. I thought, "Well, this is a wrong law." If it's a crime, well then it should be punished as a crime. But this is not a crime, and it should be modified." So that got my dander up. And so I wrote a little book called Jean's Way in which I told the truth, the harsh truth of what had happened, the good things, the good times, and the bad times, and how Jean had handled it and so forth, and about the doctor, whose name I did not release. And when I took the book 'round to several publishers in London, nobody would publish it. Even though I was already a published author and staff writer at the London Sunday Times, they said, "Oh, no. It's too harrowing. Oh, no, it'll make people cry." And my own editor, Harry Evans, the great editor, he looked at it, considered it, and he said, "No, I don't want my readers crying on Sunday morning." And I said, "What's wrong with a good cry for genuine reason? This is part of human life." But he wouldn't. He wouldn't publish it. Anyway, I found a little publisher who was willing to take the chance, and they published it. And the entire book was sold out in a week. In five days it was gone. The public snapped it up, and I sold the paperback rights, and the Norwegian rights, and the Japanese rights, and Spanish rights. So the publishers and my editor were wrong. People do want to read genuine cases about this, sincere cases. And a huge amount of the public is interested in peaceful and careful dying. So that was that. Then I moved to America to work for the Los Angeles Times. I wanted to change, and the book became very controversial, and I was invited onto lots of television shows, the Donahue Show. All of the big afternoon television shows, all of them invited me on to talk. And it began to stir interest, and I began to get huge mail from people, and they could reach me at the Los Angeles Times. They would just write, "Derek Humphry, Los Angeles Times, Los Angeles," and that would get me. And people said to me, what are you going to do about this? And I said, "Well, I'm thinking," and this question kept coming up. And so I began to feel, "Well, I'll set up an organization to help people as best we can and long term to change the law so that this could be done thoughtfully, legally by willing doctors according to law and guidelines. And so I set up the Hemlock Society in August of 1980, announced it at the L.A> press conference. I remember one reporter said to me, "Are you going to be in the yellow pages?" I said, "Of course. This is not going to be a covert organization. This is going to be straightforward. But we're not going to break any laws if we can help it. We're not that way. We're in the business of changing laws." But meantime I wrote a little book called Let Me Die Before I wake, which a guide to how to do it yourself. This first book was on the right today, well, second if you call Jean's Way as one. It was true cases of people dying, taking their lives, and what drugs they used, and how they handled it. I went around America interviewing people who were willing to talk to me about the death of a spouse or a child. And I gathered these stories together, published it in a little book, which sold continuously for the next 10 years to mostly members. It wasn't a bookstore book; it was people heard of the Hemlock Society, and I did a number of radio and television programs. Gradually the membership at Hemlock Society grew from nothing to 47, and I had a- Dr. Bob: 47? Derek Humphry: Yeah. I had a- Dr. Bob: It's interesting. I meet people in my practice, and many of these older residents of these community are card-carrying long-term members, and they're so proud of it. These are people who are very successful, intelligent, and they're the folks who have always been able to kind of be self-determining and not just accept what is being handed to them but want to really determine the course of their lives. I don't see as many younger people, and you can share your thoughts on this and what's happened since, but not as many younger people seem to be connecting and kind of opening themselves up to this sort of connection because the people who are the older people who are these long-term members of the Hemlock Society, they had to find out it and join when they were about my age in their 40s and 50s. I don't hear a lot of 50- and 40-year olds these days engaging in this conversation, which is interesting. It's mostly the older folks who are looking more- Derek Humphry: I don't agree with you there. Dr. Bob: That hasn't been your experience? Okay. Derek Humphry: My experience is different. I have two websites. I have a blog, and I have a Listserv, and I find that the ratings of people, it varies a great deal. I get an uncomfortable amount of students approaching me, wanting to interview me and to know background, and so forth because they're writing projects on it all over America. And I get some end of term or so forth, I get swamped with these. So I think there is fairly across the ages group of support, true most support from people over 50, and that's very often because they've seen their parents or grandparents die in circumstances that they would not want for themselves. Dr. Bob: That makes complete sense. Derek Humphry: Whereas young people have probably not. Thank goodness they've not seen loved ones die. But we older people, of course, have, so and- Dr. Bob: I appreciate that perspective. I appreciate ... Obviously, you've been in this world for longer and are very tapped in to it. So I appreciate knowing that from in your experience, that there are people across the age ranges who are paying attention and supporting. So what happened with the Hemlock Society? I know that there were changes that occurred. Derek Humphry: Yes. Well, because the movement grew bigger, and other organizations formed. Ten years after I formed the Hemlock, Dr. Kevorkian came on the scene with his very controversial tactics and actions. And of course, the media were fascinating with Kevorkian. I mean, they'd never heard of a doctor with a suicide machine that killed patients on request. So he got an enormous amount of ... far more publicity than I got. I washed with interest. In terms of informing, because a lot of people only watch television, and they don't tend to read books and papers, and that's their choice. So suddenly Kevorkian offers so many television appearances. We're telling people about the right to choose to die, and he helped directly with drugs 130 people to die and could have going on doing that. He was twice charged with assisted suicide, and the juries wouldn't convict him. He was acquitted. But then he wanted to make it a bigger impact. He believed that all this publicity would make the medical profession change its mind about assisted dying. He was wrong, but he persisted, very persistent, tough man. And he performed active voluntary euthanasia, a man ,very sick man came to him and asked to be helped to die. The family was behind him, and he was a very, very ill man And when Kevorkian ended his life, this man's life by injection, and he filmed it, and he got 60 Minutes to put it on film, and on the 60 Minutes program, Kevorkian looked down at the camera and pointed his finger, and then said to the district attorney of his area up at Michigan, "Either you prosecute me, or I've won." Very [defact 00:36:24], strong ... He threw down the gauntlet to the legal people, who were not going to prosecute him again. They've got fed up with him. But this time they had to take him to court because he was such a defiant act. And they were willing to look past assisted suicide, but death by injection, they were not. That was ... They charged him with manslaughter and second-degree murder. And he was convicted. He'd overstepped the mark because of assisted suicide before the courts, you can plead ... It was something you had to do, something that was by choice and by agreement. Although it's strictly it's against the law, juries accepted that when they heard the cry is from the family and what the dead patient had said and so forth. Now, with second-degree murder, you cannot bring evidence of compassion and sympathy. That's not allowed in Britain and America under a murder charge. You either did it, or you didn't do it. You can't say, "He asked me to kill me." You can't say, "I did it for a good reason." That argument, the judge will immediately stamp on any argument, and he has to. That's the law that's in the practice. Bob Uslander: I imagine it may have an impact on the sentencing and on how the punishment is meted out? But it sounds like not on the actual determination of guilt or innocence. Derek Humphry: Yes. Dr. Bob: Is that correct? Derek Humphry: Yes, and he repeated his thing, "This action of mine, helping this man to die was merciful, and the law should be changed," and all the rest of it. He said to the jury, "Do I look like a murderer?" Of course, he didn't. Dr. Bob: Of course not. Derek Humphry: But the judge was pretty strong on him. He'd appeared before her before, and he signed a bond that he would not help any people to die, and of course, he obviously broke that bond. And so the jury found him guilty, and the judge said that "This is the end of your actions on this." And he was sent to 10 years to life; I think it was. It was a certain period to life, and he went to prison. He appealed, but he had no grounds for appeal. He kept on appealing, but they didn't have good grounds for appeal. That's the way the homicide laws are: You either did it, or you didn't do it. He had a film with himself doing it. So his work ... He did eight years in prison, served it very bravely, and nobly, and was let out after eight years instead of life on a promise that he wouldn't do it anymore. And he stuck to that promise. A few years later he died of kidney disease. He certainly had his impact. But where I, and I'm not medical profession, I'm not a doctor, of course, only a journalist, and people would write to him and say, "Will you help me?" He would write them back or call them back, and he would say after he'd saw the circumstances, "Yes. Fly up here." So people that he accepted would fly to Detroit, check into a motel. And he would help them to die next day. Now, that upset the medical profession. They said, "Look, that's not the way you practice medicine." Even if the end result was a Kevorkian-type result, you would evaluate a patient. You get to know a patient. You make sure it's a genuine, compassionate request. So he didn't move the medical profession at all. I'm afraid, and- Dr. Bob: Right. And that's really what's developed of course in the states that do have loss that allow physician-aided dying. Those issues are addressed. And as somebody who's practicing in that realm, I can assure you and everyone listening that the relationships are very important, and this is not a quick transaction, right? Derek Humphry: Yes, not a casual thing at all. There has to be understanding and friendship and signed documents saying that that's proving that this was the patient' own decision, the witnessed documents and whatever. It must be done carefully. And Kevorkian, one, in the start of his antics, he came to me, and he said that "Will the Hemlock Society send me patients?" And I said, "No. I don't believe in ..." Oh, he said he was going to start a suicide clinic. And I replied to him straight off in my office, he came to my office, asked for help, and I said, "No, I don't believe in people being helped assisted dying in clinics. This is something that must be done in home with knowledgeable doctors and agreeing families. This is not acceptable at all." He got very angry and stamped out of the office because I wouldn't help him. And I said, "Alright." Even before he got out, I said, "Alright. We have to change the law, not break it." Dr. Bob: Right, not circumvent it. Derek Humphry: Anyway, so he never spoke to me again. Dr. Bob: First of all, thank you for that history lesson. It's fascinating, and I now a lot of people will benefit from having a greater understanding of how the right-to-die movement really began and where Dr. Kevorkian fits into it. Share with me a bit, if you would, about what you're doing now. What is life like for Derek Humphry these days? Derek Humphry: Well, I'm 87 years old, in pretty good heath instead of some of the things like nerve-ending damage, or losing my hearing, and so forth that old people suffer from, but I don't have any major illnesses or terminal illnesses. I resigned from the Hemlock Society seven years ago. It was getting too big. I'm a writer, not a CEO, and so I handed it over. A few years later it merged into Compassion and Choices, into another ... It was merged, and the Hemlock Society doesn't exist anymore, except Hemlock Society of San Diego: They've kept their name and a very strong chapter down there. Dr. Bob: Yes, good friend sort of mine, and I will be introducing the listeners to some of the folks from the Hemlock Society of San Diego in future podcasts. Derek Humphry: Yes. I run a little organization that supplies quality literature about the right to choose to die, about assisted dying. And my book Final Exit, which is the guidebook as to how you can practice your own self-deliverance, what you must beware of, the dos and don'ts, the law. It's all described in journalistic terms. I'm a very straightforward writer. The book Final Exit has been selling since 1991, selling today. I sell about four or five a day. It's in the bookstores. It's on Amazon, and so forth. And it's sold all over the world. Most languages have taken, and even China and Japan have taken it. And then I've just published a memoir of my life, Good Life, Good Death, which is the story of my life before 50. I was 50 when I started the Hemlock Society, but it describes my life there, and then the second half about Jean's death and how the right-to-die movement numeric grew and grew. I moved to live in Oregon from Los Angeles, and I discovered that Oregon had a system of you could change the law by citizens initiative, that citizens could vote in their own law. It's quite complicated to do it. So in 1993, we set about, I gathered people around me and Hemlock Society of Oregon. I met other good people, doctors, and the lawyers, and nurses, and laypeople, and we got a citizens initiative going in Oregon in 1994, and we learned from other failures that we'd had previously in California and Washington. And to everybody's surprise, we won. We won by 2%, and the right-to-life movement sprung into action, got an injunction against us, stopped it. Then we fought that injunction off. Then they brought another one in, and they delayed the law for three years, and they called another vote, a state-wide vote in Oregon. They called another vote. And it was the biggest mistake they ever meant. We won by 4% the next time. We doubled our gain. So the vote, it was twice voted on in Oregon. And the law went into effect in 1998, and has worked- Dr. Bob: Yes, it has, and then- Derek Humphry: ... very satisfactorily ever since, and I think- Dr. Bob: Yeah, and then laws, the law in Washington became essentially modeled after that, and California and now Colorado, and I understand that there are initiatives and bills in many other states. So we are I think the progress continues. Derek Humphry: Yes. It's slow progress, and people would like to see more, but in a democracy and a free country like America, you've got to go step by step. Dr. Bob: Yes, you've got to go through [crosstalk 00:49:14]. Derek Humphry: Interesting. In Britain, it's still a crime to assist a suicide, but the Chief Prosecutions Department in London has issued guidelines. This is two years ago. They issued guidelines as to when they would prosecute a person and when they would not, what their markers were, what their standard was. And I agreed with it. I thought, "That's ..." I could see that I was ... Oh, there was a ... After the cheese, we came out, he police came to me and said, "Did you do this?" And I said, "Yes, I did. Oh, yeah." I said, "If you take me to court, I'll throw myself on the mercy of the court." I did help her. But the public prosecutor decided not to prosecute me. He used a clause in the law that if he felt one way about it, he could decline prosecution. And in Britain, they have this new law. They still haven't changed the law in Britain, and though they've tried the Oregon law two or three times, it never gets through Parliament. But they do have these guidelines which you can read there on the Internet and everywhere, which says if you assist a loved one, it can't be strangers, if you assist a loved one under these circumstances, I can't spread them all out now, but intelligent circumstances, then we are not likely to prosecute. If you do it for monetary reasons, or selfishness, or any criminality, then you will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Dr. Bob: As it should be. Derek Humphry: So go ahead. Dr. Bob: No. I said, "As it should be," right? I know that sometimes there can be nuances, but we do need to be protecting ... We need those protections in place. Derek Humphry: Oh, yes, undoubtedly. We're moving towards doing it. And I think that the whole change in America society is swinging, going to swing in our favor. I mean, who would've thought 10 years ago that there would be gay rights as clear as they are now, that there would be same-sex marriages? Who would've thought that a few years ago? But it's gone through, and the Supreme Court approved it. So there is a change in attitudes. Dr. Bob Bob: There is. Derek Humphry: And younger people are more open to intelligent decisions instead of old-fashioned and religious decisions. Bob Uslander: Well, you were ahead of your time, my friend, and you were it sounds like an accidental pioneer. I personally and professionally am grateful. We will be kind of carrying the torch and continuing in the efforts that you and many of your peers have put forth. And there are many, many people who owe you gratitude for going out and being willing to put yourself out there because it wasn't the easy path. It wasn't the path of least resistance by any stretch. I know that. Dr. Bob: So, Derek- Derek Humphry: ... had some ups and downs. Dr. Bob: yeah. Well, no doubt. And there is more work to be done. Derek Humphry: Oh, yes. Dr. Bob: There is quite a bit, but we also want to, like you were indicating, we want to recognize and appreciate the strides that have been made. And we are, I feel like we're moving clearly in the right direction. Derek Humphry: Yeah. I hope so. Dr. Bob: If people want to connect with you, and certainly you discussed a few of your books, I know there's others, but Let Me Die Before I Wake was one; Final Exit; Good Life, Good Death, which I have a copy of, and I can't wait to crack it open and dive into it. What is the best way for someone to learn more about you, be able to access your blog or give access to your books? Derek Humphry: My main website, which is the name's easily remembered, and then that leads you on to my other websites and blogs. It's www.finalexit.org. I'm not a nonprofit organization. If you go to finalexit.org, you could then see how you could move on to our bookstore very clearly or join a blog or the Listserv. So that's the easiest way to get in contact with us, finalexit.org. And my latest book is my memoir of all these years before '50 and the turbulent years since 50, and I call it Good Life, Good Death, so not all about death. There's quite a lot of humor and irony in other parts of it. And it's available through me or Amazon or so forth, but prefer you bought it from me. And you can find it through finalexit.org and get it at the discounted rate. Dr. Bob: Wonderful. Well, Derek, I just want to thank you for taking time and sharing so openly, and, again, for everything you've done to move, I think to move humanity forward. Derek Humphry: In a small way, and it's been very rewarding. I've built up a huge friendship and wonderful friendships, and people to work with on these calls, and particularly down in San Diego there seems a real hotbed of thoughts and action about this subject. Bob Uslander: Yeah, well, I know you've got some very good friends and admirers down here, and I'm one of them. So I'll look forward to continuing this friendship, and I know that we'll be back in touch soon. So I'll be signing off. Thank you so much, and we all appreciate you. Derek Humphry: It's been good talking to you. Dr. Bob: Okay, Derek. You take care of yourself. Derek Humphry: Okay. Thanks very much.
In a very candid and poignant conversation, Bill Andrews' sons share what their dad's end-of-life experience was like for them. Hear how they worked as a team to help their dad have the best death. Note, if you haven't already listened to their father's episode, please click here to listen to Bill Andrews share why he chose to end his life after battling ALS. Transcript Dr. Bob: This episode is a follow-up to a previous podcast with Bill Andrews, a patient of mine who ended his life on October 23rd, 2017, using The End of Life Option Act, also known as Physician Aid in Dying, or Death With Dignity. The law, which became effective in California in June of 2016, allows a competent adult resident of California with a terminal illness to request from their attending physician a prescription for medication that will end their life in a peaceful and dignified manner. Bill Andrews had ALS, also known as Lou Gehrig's Disease. He was a surfer, a thrill-seeker, and an adventurer prior to the onset of this illness. He also was a devoted son, father, and grandfather. I recorded a podcast with him four days before he ended his life. Two of his sons were present for that interview, as well, and all three were with him when he died a few days later. I invited Bill's sons, Chris, Eric, and Brian, to join me and share what they had learned from this experience, and to help carry on their father's legacy by helping others understand more about what it's like to help a loved one through the Aid in Dying process. Bill was a pioneer, and he was also a humanitarian. He wanted his death to have value for others, which I'm hopeful that these podcasts can help accomplish. This discussion is fairly graphic and detailed. Some people may find some of the content uncomfortable. Others will find it gripping and refreshing. I found it incredibly inspiring, to hear the words of these intelligent, thoughtful and grieving young men as they share what they went through as a family and honor their father, Bill Andrews. Please share this with others who may benefit and feel free to head to my website, integratedmdcare.com/newsite1, for additional information and support and other topics related to life and death. Welcome to another life and death conversation. This is Dr. Bob Uslander, your host and the founder of Integrated MD Care. Today is gonna be a bit of a different format, we're doing a group podcast, and I have a few gentlemen here with me who I shared a pretty special experience with just a couple months ago. I did a podcast interview with Bill Andrews; you may have listened to that one. Bill was quite a character, well loved and well respected, a gentleman who made the brave decision to end his own life after struggling with ALS for several years. I did an interview with Bill just a few days before he did end his life and he did it in the company and the presence of his family, and his sons, Brian, Chris and Eric, have decided that they wanted to speak and share their perspective and help others who may be trying to figure out how to navigate this terrain and how to support each other and their loved ones through this process. So I'm grateful and very please to introduce you to Brian, Eric, and Chris Andrews. Thanks for being here guys. Patient Son: Thanks, doctor. Patient Son: Thank you. Dr. Bob: Okay. There's a lot of things that we can talk about. There's a lot of different components to this, but one of the things I want you to share ... And you were on that podcast when we talked to your dad, and we got a little bit of your perspective on that, but he was the star of the show. You guys were in the background, but it was nice to have that. Now I'd like you to, in memory of him, in honor of him, we know that he was very, it was really important to him that people understood that this was an option and they understood why he took this option. Why he made the choice. From your perspective, can you share a little bit about why you felt it was so important for him to share his story? Patient Son: This is Brian. Dad loved being a pioneer in life. He liked being out in the forefront doing things in business that were new and innovative, and in his action sports lifestyle, surfing big waves, motor crossing areas that people had never been. I think he really felt good about being a pioneer and doing something here that was newly available. Dr. Bob: Okay. Patient Son: He really wants people to hear his story, and he was really happy to have done that, the podcast with you, and he really wants to get this information out for people considering this. Dr. Bob: That's cool. It's interesting to think about that, the pioneering spirit. I relate to that. I'm kind of, as a physician, a bit of a pioneer in this realm. Of course, had he not been dealing with a terminal illness that was challenging him every day and getting worse, he probably would have found other ways to pioneer, right? Patient Son: Yeah. Dr. Bob: But this was an opportunity for him to take his own experience and what he had to deal with and go through and hopefully allow others to benefit from it. So, not just being a pioneer, but being a humanitarian, I think. Patient Son: He's always loved helping people and helping to share wisdom and teach and coach. That's just the kind of guy he was, so yeah, this is good. Dr. Bob: Yeah. How long before he actually, his life ended, did he start talking about this being an option for him? Patient Son: I don't he knew it was an option to be honest with you 100%. But I think it was something that we discovered along the way, and it might have been Brian who brought it to his attention as an option to look into. Dr. Bob: Okay. Patient Son: We were reading all about ALS and how it was gonna end. But the question was when and how right? So we were just learning so much about it and reading about it and meeting people, going to support groups. You know at some point it's gonna end. The average time was supposed to be two to three years, and so we didn't know how long. It turned out to only be, from diagnosis, it turned out to only be a year for dad. Through that journey of reading about that we read about this option and talked about it. Dr. Bob: And so you discussed it with him. Did you guys discuss it with each other first? Patient Son: We did. We shared it with each other and just, you know, it was earlier on. I think that was maybe in the first month or so after his diagnosis. It was around the holidays a year ago. We had read about that and said, "Well, this is something we should keep our eye on." We knew we were going to go through a journey together. We just wanted to have that as something to learn about and so we did. I think dad was also reading on his own and I'm sure he read about it as well. It's something we ended up talking about together. Patient Son: ALS was not something that I think any of us knew anything about prior to his diagnosis. It's the type of thing we all had to be learning about as we were going through it. We were also trying to form opinions about it as we were going through it. I think that when Brian came across the Death with Dignity website, and there were some other materials that kind of lead us to that path to look at that. It wasn't like, "Hey, what do you guys think?" It was just like, "Let's just read this and try and understand this a bit." The whole process was a lot of like learning, talking, digesting everything. Like facts, emotions, decisions, kind of all doing it simultaneously. But yeah, we really, it was something that we brought to his, for him. Dr. Bob: Which is unusual. You don't have much other exposure to this, but it's unusual that families bring it to a person. In my experience, most of the time, the individual is the one who has been either, for years has been kind of secretly knowing that if things got to a certain point if they develop these challenges, that they would want to look for that out. But most of the time, the family members bring ... the patient, the one who's dying, brings it to the family members and they have to try to convince the family members that it's the right thing for them. That's what I see more often. I think it speaks a lot to your relationship with him and your level of love and trust, that you felt that you could bring something like that onto the table and talk about it as a family looking at all the different options that were out there. This is never the first option. This is never what anyone is hoping for. It's always after exhausting all the other possibilities. But as it turns out in many cases, it's the best of the various options that are out there. So you guys, at what point did you speak of this to a physician? At what point did, and I know, but for the listeners there, what was the path that was taken once it was discussed as a family? Patient Son: We had seen one of dad's primary physicians, and they had a good relationship with one another. End of life, quality of life was a big conversation between those two, especially within the last year. We weren't a part of those conversations until recently when we started going to the appointments with dad, you know, having to take him there and so forth. So being there gave us exposure to some of those conversations, and it was no surprise to his physician, approximately two months before dad left us, that we went to him with that formal request. He was ready for that call. Dr. Bob: Okay. And even though he wasn't necessarily familiar with the specifics or how to put things in place, he was receptive and willing to support your dad through that? Patient Son: Very much so. Dr. Bob: Great. I know that that's ... How long was it between that conversation and when he reached out to me? Do you have any idea? Was there much time lapse in there? Patient Son: Yeah. He doesn't know the exact time. Patient Son: I think it was about four to six weeks. We had the conversation saying, "We're ready to move forward." We had some learning to do on our side that took some days and some weeks. Our physician wasn't familiar with the process whatsoever, so he needed to do his own research as well. Two, three weeks went by, we realized together, with the physician, that we were at a stalemate. It was at that point that we decided to explore other options and getting some additional help, and that's how we met you. Dr. Bob: Great, yeah. I had met him. I had a prior relationship with this physician. He, I guess put the word out that he was looking for someone who knew more about it. Patient Son: He did. Dr. Bob: And then we connected, and I think it worked out well. He got to be involved, as everybody wanted because he had that relationship and you got the benefit of working with someone who knew how to get you down that path. Patient Son: Yeah, you ended taking over as the primary and then he took over as the supporting physician. Dr. Bob: Right, it worked out really well. Patient Son: It worked out great. Everything was smooth once we got rolling on that program. Dr. Bob: And he deserved that, he deserved smooth sailing because there's a lot of folks who start down this path and they just hit one roadblock after another, one obstacle after another. And either they struggle for longer, or they often get passed the point where they can even take advantage of this, which is really unfortunate. Patient Son: We actually had that as a time constraint, because dad has the ability to walk and his arms were getting really weak, and his hands, gripping was getting weak. We had to start hand feeding him in his final week. So it wasn't too much time left because he could life a cup with a few ounces of weight and drink when he needed to do, even do any other way to self-administer. Self-administering was a requirement, so we had a time horizon that was limited. So we were getting a little bit, a little nervous about that as time marched on, which is another reason we contacted you to help get things moving. Because he really wanted that, he had talked about having three options. He could just let the disease take his course and he'd starve to death and wouldn't be able to breathe. He didn't want to go through that, but that would have been his second choice. The other option was to be kept alive through any medical means possible, feeding tube and ventilator. He did not want to do that. So that's what knew right from the beginning, he did not want to be kept alive, didn't want to be bed-ridden, didn't want to be having this, any medical means to keep him going. Because he lived a great life, and he was ready to go, so that was the last of the options, and this became his leading options hands down, was to take this California End of Life, with a graceful ending on his terms, not having the disease run its course all the way to the end. He was getting very close. We were only I think a few weeks away at the most. Dr. Bob: As things were changing? Patient Son: Yeah, things were changing pretty fast for him. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I know that it's hard to even imagine how frightening that would be. Even though he knew that he had plan B, but he knew that that was going to be difficult for everybody. It was going to be challenging for him, and it would have been difficult for the family to watch somebody going through that. So I know that he was very, very determined to be in control. We know that he set a date, and setting a date is probably a bit challenging because you have children who live in different parts of the country, and he wanted to be accommodating. He wanted to make sure that everybody could be there and participate, but he didn't want to push it off too far because he was worried about the possibility that he would lose the ability. He also didn't want to cut offany more of his life than he had to because he loved the people who were around him. He still loved life; he just hated the circumstances. So when I talked with him, he was four days out from the date that he had set. We knew at that time that he was not going to change his mind, he was determined. Can you talk a little bit about what it was like from your perspective to be setting a date for your father to be ending his life? Patient Son: That's a terrific question, Chris. Do you want to start Eric? Patient Son: Yeah, I feel like jumping in. I think this is sort of like the piece that was ... I think were saying it was a little morbid, but it was also really amazing. It ended up being fascinating. Typically, when someone dies they die, and then they're gone, and you have to deal with everything all at ones. You have to deal with your emotions and the planning and logistics. You have to deal with everything all at once. But what this afforded us was an opportunity to chip away at all these things. We knew his day was approaching, so we all knew that we could say our goodbyes. It also meant that we could be emotional one day and they be very pragmatic another day, and just say, "What should we take care of today?" Because we had time, we didn't have to deal with it all at once. You could deal with it as you were leading up to the day. It was really comforting. It gave everyone the time and the space to wrap things up in a way that we all needed to individually. I always tell people, it's like a really weird experience, but I got to write his eulogy and then read it to him. There was one part that I didn't say very well, and so I actually rewrote a part of it and then read it again to him. No one gets to do that. I thought that that was a really special opportunity that this afforded us, that I found fascinating. Patient Son: His, dad's terms were reverse engineering. He was an engineer. He liked planning things. His goal was to pick a date that would work well for the family. Once we did that, then all the other pieces fell into place. So picking the actual date was pretty easy for us, because dad was not doing well at all, getting worse day by day, having a harder time day by day, so the sooner, the better. He wanted to take advantage of the quickest it could happen, you know after the process, which was about a little longer than two weeks, 14, 15 days, something like that. So we worked together, the three sons and dad, to pick a date that would work best for everybody. Then, from there, worked backwards to what he wanted to do and what we wanted to do leading up to that date. Patient Son: Cool. Eric, you should tell him about the day before, like what ... Patient Son: Do you want to get into that or some of the things that happened before then? [crosstalk 00:19:41] Dr. Bob: No, no. I think it would be fascinating, but do you have anything you wanted to add- Patient Son: Yeah, I'll comment on the date. Dr. Bob: ... about setting the date? Patient Son: Yeah, it was a powerful, impactful moment to set the date. We bounced around on phone calls and texts, trying to pick a date. Dad, when he was ready, he was ready. He was, "As soon as possible," but I want to make sure it works out for all of us because we have our families and birthdays and holidays. He was ready to go, time off work. He was really concerned about a date that would work for all of us, but he was ready, so of course, we wanted to accommodate him with as early as we could pull it off. So we bounced around a couple of dates. We had one and then we actually switched. We had to have Chris come out from New York, and thinking about your family when they would come out. I would just say that it was a heavy moment to set the date, but also it was very freeing at the same time because we did have it on the calendar. We circled that date, and then we could reverse engineer it and start to plan all these activities. So it kind of gut us unstuck and it started some real positive moves to happen, to have that. But it was powerful. Dr. Bob: I imagine it amazing freeing for him too. Patient Son: It was. Dr. Bob: I mean it sounds ... I think that I hear families talk more about how knowing the date makes it more real, and sometimes even more uncomfortable. You guys are unusual in that I get the sense that you guys are all, you were so deeply connected with your dad that you were experiencing this as he was experiencing it, not separate. I mean yeah, you have to think about how it's going to impact you and deal with those feelings, but I really felt like you completely put him first, and that was the only thing that really mattered, was making sure that he got what he needed to get, and with as little interference or struggle as possible. Patient Son: Yes, it's very true. I think we're just like every other family; nobody's perfect. We've all had our disagreements throughout the years and certainly some tough times all growing up; things weren't always perfect. But the disease brought us together, and then this decision brought us together even closer, which was fantastic. Dr. Bob: Cool. That's a gift. Patient Son: It was. We all had our own unique relationships with him for sure. When the disease diagnosis was given a year prior, we said, "We're going to really bond as a team." We had a team name, Team Keep Paddling, dad's a big surfer, right? So he always said, "Just keep paddling. If you ever want to give up, just keep reminding yourself to keep paddling. One more wave, paddle, don't give up. Bust through the white water and get out there and catch that last wave." So that's what, we formed our team name, and we were all about being together. It's actually the best team I've ever been on in my life, in any sports team or work team. This team, this Team Keep Paddling, was the best team I've ever been on. Dr. Bob: That's wonderful. I just had an image that came to me. I'm sure that your dad taught each of you to surf. Whether you kept surfing or not, at some point, I imagine that he'd spent his time pushing you into the waves and getting you up there. I just had this image of you guys, because he couldn't move, he couldn't walk, he couldn't do it, that you guys sort of pushed him into the wave. Patient Son: That's really good. Dr. Bob: [crosstalk 00:23:31] into that final wave. Patient Son: You're right. Dr. Bob: And he rode that wave in. Patient Son: Something I think the three of us did really well together, was that I think when this first started, there was a lot of, "I, I, I, I," type of thing. "I feel this way. I might do it this way," and so forth. Then you, as time goes by and the situation gets worse, you tend to ... well at least for us I think it became more about dad. You know, what he wanted. It was crystal clear towards the end that all the decisions that we should make were in his best interest and making sure that he could go out the way in which he wanted. We're very proud of our team work together to support him. He was so happy at the end. We can live the rest of our lives knowing that we did the right thing for him. Dr. Bob: Yeah, and you created that piece for him in that place, and part of that was that you guys were coming together and working in that way and that you always ... I'm thinking about my own experience with my parents and how that affected me, but now that you know what it feels like to fully support someone, to remove your own needs from that, it affects everything. You can never un-know that. You always recognize that there's a part of you that is able to completely forget about your own needs and put others first. This is potentially the culmination of that, but it changes us, right? When we do that it changes us, and all of our other relationships going forward are influenced by that, which is pretty cool. So that's another gift. His gifts continue to be apparent. Patient Son: Yeah. You're right. Dr. Bob: So you guys, you alluded to this, and I definitely want to talk, you created, the whole couple of day leading to and including the day of his death were pretty incredible. You want to talk a little bit about that? Patient Son: The things towards the end that were very important to him, which they were forever just reinforced a little bit, were some time with his sons, some time with his family, some time with his grandchildren. So the day before he passed we set it up so that the grandkids could spend some time with him in his room as residents. We weren't sure how that would go so we just kept bouncing ideas off each other about what would be comfortable for everybody. We thought just opening the room up and letting the kids run around and play and be themselves was the right thing to do, because that's what they're good at and that's what dad wanted to see them do. We had a couple activities. One of which was we made a t-shirt for dad that we would were the following day. Patient Son: It was his idea. Patient Son: It was dad's idea, right. Why don't you talk about the shirt? Patient Son: [crosstalk 00:26:53] told you. Patient Son: We thought this was really special. He'd said ... We were actually trying to talk ... He wanted to know who should be in the room the day that he was actually going to go through with this. We talk about it, and he said, "Well ... " He's like, "Obviously I don't want the grandkids in the room." He's like, "What would be amazing is if, when you guys bring them over to play, bring a white t-shirt and some paint. I want them all to put their hand prints on the t-shirt, and I'll wear it. That way the next day I'll feel like they're in the room with me." It was super sweet, and so we did that, as part of the day before. We had the kids come over, and they thought it was a lot of fun. But maybe they didn't realize at the time they were actually making him a really amazing memento. And then Eric had another amazing idea... He bought a plain white sheet, and he bought a ton of fabric pens and paints. He had all the kids; it was Eric's idea, he had all the kids draw pictures, "Just draw whatever you want." Whether they knew it or not, the age range in the room, how old is Paige? She's 10? Patient Son: 12. Patient Son: 12. The kids ranged from two years old to 12 years old, and they were six of them. We put a big tarp out and the thing, and they all went to town on it. After they were done, they got in a little line and one by one they brought ... We put the sheet over dad and one by one they each pointed to their artwork and explained what they drew and why they drew it for him. What was really special is that we didn't really say, we didn't say, "Draw something intense," but they all I think were feeling the moment, and they did in their own ways. Each one of them got to express through pictures something for him. At the end of the day, he had a t-shirt to wear and this beautiful artwork on a sheet that he go to bring with him the next day. Dr. Bob: When I went over that next day, he was beaming. He was so proud of what he was wearing and just talking about that experience from the day before. That was brilliant. That was brilliant. Patient Son: In addition to seeing the kids and spending some time with them, he also had a couple places that he wanted to visit one last time. Two of which were his favorite beaches, where he wanted to get down there and smell the air one more time, see the waves one more time. We were able to make one of those trips, the other one he just wasn't feeling well physically to go down and make that trip. But we were able to get down to the beach. He wanted to see his grandkids and some sporting events, so he came and watched some flag football, some baseball, some gymnastics. That was important. He had some great meals towards the end; he would eat whatever we want, so we were bringing him things from all over San Diego, some of his favorites. And then also spending some time with his brother, his sister, his mom, close family, as well as some of his dearest friends. He had hundreds and hundreds of friends, so many he knew so well. But there were a handful in particular that he wanted to have some special conversations. So there was a lot that happened. He was able to cross off just about every single thing on that list within that short window of time that we had, or that he had, to be able to follow through this way. Patient Son: I think Eric told you, dad reverse engineered things. So he knew that on the day, it was not a day for goodbyes, it wanted it to be just a business day, where we just took care of things. The day before he wanted to see his grandkids. The days before that, he leaned on us to basically setup times for people to come through. It was very organized. This is exactly the way he wanted it. Patient Son: Went through all the pictures and he explained where places where and who people were. All that was just quality time. Patient Son: One cool think he did that I thought was really special too is he talked about time a lot in the end. When we picked a date it sort of made time more real, but he often said, beyond this, that time is the greatest gift. In the context of running towards the date that he picked, time became more real. But one cool thing he did was he recorded a bunch of things. So he had, I don't know, a checklist of 50 recordings that he wanted to do. He wanted to say something to each grandkids. Patient Son: His own voice recordings. Patient Son: He wanted to something to his friends. He had all these things that he wanted to get out. Obviously, he couldn't write anymore, and so he recorded his voice. But again, having that time, having that date is what enabled him to feel like he could accomplish something. Like, "Alright, I've got to see these people and do these things and make these recordings, and this is what I'm going to do." Patient Son: While he had a completely sound mind and was full of life mentally, just the body was breaking down. But we got to take advantage of that all the way to the end. Completely sound mind and great conversations, all the way to the end. That was a gift. Dr. Bob: Incredible. It's incredible. I didn't know about those recordings. I do know how structured his time was towards the end, because I had to come out and make another visit with him, and I had a short window. I was fit in between a whole bunch of other people there. I was like, "Come on, I'm the important one." Apparently not. Anyway. Talk a little bit about the last day. I think it's important for people to hear what that experience is like from the perspective of those who have helped to allow it and create it if you're comfortable with that. Patient Son: Sure, yeah. I mean, it was surreal, being the last day, for sure. He had hospice care. They were amazing, amazing people. They came by and gave him a shave and a bath. He smelled like a rose. Patient Son: He spoke very complimentary about the people who bathed him and supported him. Patient Son: Yeah. They were phenomenal, really amazing people. So, he got clean, he got dressed in his shirt, and he had the sheet. We had some time together in the morning to have a few more conversations, but he wanted to keep it pretty light that day. He already felt like he had said everything he needed to say, so that last day was just being together. We played some music, some of his favorite songs. We ordered the prescription. That prescription was delivered on that day. It's how that works. Between the order that you put in for that prescription, and they made the delivery to us. That kind of dictated our time window a bit. We didn't have the luxury of having that medication already in hand and waiting for that. So we had to make that happen all that day. But they were great as far as getting that to us pretty rapidly, just a couple hours and we had the medication in hand. Then we had planned to have everybody over. We had his mom and his brother and his sister and our mom and the three of us together all day. We had everybody planned to come over at a certain time once we had time to get the medication. Dr. Bob: You guys want to talk a little bit about that final hour or so? Patient Son: His last day went as good as we could have scripted it, I guess is the most important thing. I agree when you say he wanted to keep it light and so forth. For me personally, it almost ... I hope this doesn't sound cold, but it felt almost as if a formality, because we were able to spend quite a bit of time with him leading up to it, having a chance to say everything that we wanted to say. So that day became just being there for him, as proud, encouraged and strong as he was, he was probably feeling scared, although he'd never admit it. So it was just letting everything go and just being there for him and holding his hand and just telling him a couple more times how much we loved him, and then supporting the other ones in the room who had a tough time with it. Just kind of being there together, and luckily you did a great job for us, where we didn't feel any sort of stress. It just felt calm and the way it was supposed to go, I guess. I'll remember those things, that it was a beautiful day, it worked out perfectly, wouldn't have changed a thing. It all happened pretty quick. Dr. Bob: Were you nervous? Were you nervous about things potentially going badly? Is that a thought that you had? Patient Son: Me personally, no, because I didn't know enough about the medicines or things to understand the true percentage of them not working or something. The family, we were all so communicative together that I knew there would be no outburst or something emotional from anybody in the room. You're always a little nervous I guess in any situation, especially one like this, that it might not go well. But I was so confident and feeling so good for him at the time, that it erased any stress I think leading up to it. Patient Son: I would just say thank you to you too. I think having you; there was ... as I understand you don't have to have a- Dr. Bob: No, there's no requirement to have a medical person there. Patient Son: That would have made me nervous of think. Having you there with us was really ... Patient Son: Yes, agree. Patient Son: I don't know, it was calming and assuring. It was really great for you to tell everybody in the room too what to expect, here's what's going to happen, as we get rolling. It calmed a lot of the ... a lot of confidence that there was actually someone here who had done this before and this is going to be okay. I think without you I would have been more nervous. Patient Son: Yeah, me too. Me too. We knew from you that the medications were going to work. That was undoubtable. So then it was a matter of what it would be like for us in the room and how gentle it would be. That's what was an unknown. Dad was totally at peace. He had said even that three to five days prior, that was the most peaceful time of his life. He felt so confident and was looking forward to that day actually, this next adventure that he was going to go on free from his body with ALS. We all felt very positively about the day. We have had zero regrets and have felt good about it all along to this day. But he was at peace. With his mom there, she was 95 at the time; she just celebrated her 96th birthday. Everyone came over; it was about one o'clock in the afternoon. We were going to give about an hour or so, a little over an hour, to just be with him, as with the larger family who were there earlier. So his mom came by, and his brother and sister and so on. One thing that was a little bit different for us is we have to prepare the medication. You explained this to us and were totally prepared for it. But with the medications, there's an anti-nausea, those are done an hour prior. Then you get into the; in our case, it was Seconal we used. So we had to open up the 100 capsules. We did that together, the three of us. We got, banged through it pretty quick, it seemed like 20, 30 minutes maybe to do that, 20 minutes maybe. But that was a process to go through. We had the family in the room, and we were going through and opening these and getting it ready. That was a little bit- Dr. Bob: Distracting. Patient Son: A little bit. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Patient Son: Yeah. We weren't just sitting with him; we were opening these capsules and so on. But it was part of the process. We understand that there's no other option right now. We knew that was a proven medication that was going to work and so that was the choice all along. It was just a process... Dr. Bob: Chris? Patient Son: Yeah. This is the only kind of negative part for me I think, was I didn't know. I didn't realize, that we were going get 100 of these capsules and have to break them open and empty them out. It was a little unexpected thing that I felt kind of threw off a little bit of the vibe because everything was so peaceful and we had confidence. All of a sudden, I don't want to speak for you guys, but I didn't feel 100% confident that I was doing it right or that, am I allowed to touch this stuff? Do I inhale this? It was a little weird for me in the moment. And then, I didn't really care until our grandma came and his brother and sister, and I felt like we weren't done with that part yet. So I felt like they were seeing the sausage get made or something, and I was like, that part freaked me out a little bit because I would have rather that just been done. It was the one thing I felt like wasn't exactly ... I mean, it sounds really hyper about our schedule. But it schedule and that part was a little frustrating for me. I think emotionally it was a little weird too because I felt like I was really participating with kind of this medieval act of poison or something. That part I didn't love so much, but I think had we been able to do it earlier, not too much earlier but just earlier enough, where I didn't feel stressed about it with other people in the room and ... Dr. Bob: I think ... So, part of the comfort level and knowing what's safe or reducing that stress, that's on me. I could have certainly given you a bit more information. But now that I'm remembering, you couldn't have done it earlier because of the timeframe. The medication was just delivered that day. Patient Son: It was just delivered. Dr. Bob: And he wasn't going to wait. Patient Son: I would have just told them to come later... Dr. Bob: So for anyone who's listening and you're in the process of planning, this is something to keep in mind. And there is another medication. Just to make sure that it's clear, there is another medication besides Seconal, and it's called DDMP2, which is a combination of powders. It's morphine and Valium and a couple of heart medications. But I typically don't recommend that to my patients, because it's not quite as proven, it's not always as smooth and quick. You might have had a very different experience had he taken that because sometimes it takes hours, rather than the minutes that it took your dad to gently stop breathing. So there are other options. I appreciate you sharing that because it's part of the experience. Patient Son: It was. Dr. Bob: This is a conversation. We're not trying to gloss over anything. We're not trying to make it sound simple or anything other than what it is. This was a very; it was a very meaningful difficult, beautiful, challenging time. It was all of that. I will never forget your grandmother doing the hula. Dr. Bob: She was incredibly special. Was that her idea? Patient Son: It was. Patient Son: Completely her idea. 95 years old at the time, and she spent a lot of time in Hawaii, spent 20 years or so out in Hawaii. So she learned hula out there, and she was a swimmer, very active and learned to dance. She had this idea that she was going to do this hula for him, to send him off on his next journey. So she stood at the foot of his bed. They had their eyes locked, and she did this amazing dance, stood up, she kind of leaned against the bed a little bit to steady herself. She did this amazing hula. Their eyes were locked, and dad looked so happy. He was just smiling, beaming. It was a beautiful moment. We all were blown away by that. But the connection they had, it was amazing. Dr. Bob: Yeah, it was beyond description. And she wasn't just dancing and granted this was a 95 year old dancing; it wasn't- Patient Son: Mostly upper body. Dr. Bob: Mostly upper body. Patient Son: Part of the hula, maybe people ... I'm not an expert in this but it's singing and dancing combine into a really beautiful choreographed moment. She choreographed not only the movement but also she wrote and sang her own song. The essence of the song was about passage, safe passage. It had a surf, nautical kind of thing happening. It was about letting him pass through. It was his mom, saying, "It's okay," and giving him that comfort like it's okay. It was through beautiful hand movements and song. It was really pretty. Dr. Bob: Yeah. And I believe it ended with, "And I will see you before long." Patient Son: Yeah. Yeah. Patient Son: That's right. Patient Son: It was her way to say goodbye. It was very beautiful. Yeah, it's crazy. Dr. Bob: Yeah, and then he reiterated how incredibly at peace he was. I truly, as difficult as this is, to be part of these experiences, truly it's incredibly gratifying to see the depth of the connection and to know that you're left with this beautiful memory that you allowed him to have this peaceful end and to be in control at the end of his life. I thank you. I thank you for being here and for sharing this. I know it's not easy to talk about, it's still so fresh. Is there anything else that you feel really strongly that you want to share that's coming up? Don't feel pressured, I don't want to end this with you having something that you think needs to be said. Patient Son: Well, the actual, once he took the medication it was very peaceful. We weren't sure what to expect. It took 19 minutes from start to finish. He was asleep within a minute or so, a minute or two at the most. Very, very peaceful. He started out with just a relaxed breathing, and it slowed and slowed and drifted off. It was very peaceful. We were all gathered around him and holding him. It couldn't have been better from that perspective. We've always felt good about it; I guess that's a true test. Two months later, here we are, and we're feeling like it was absolutely the right decision for him to make. We were happy to be a part of that for him, to support him, what he needed to do given the scenario. Thank you, Dr. Bob, for helping us with that. Dr. Bob: It was my honor. Patient Son: I would add to that, that since this has happened a lot of people have asked about it. Telling people about this is cathartic because it kind of helps to tell. But it also makes me realize how little people know about the Right To Die Act. It's something when you start telling them your story, they get very engaged, and they're very interested. They want to know more about it. I think it's just not a lot of people know about this but everybody I talk to and tell the story to is fascinated with the dignity and the choice and the control, and dying in a way that's very graceful. What you hear from other people is like, "That was not my experience." My grandma or my father, whoever died, they died very bad. It was not good for anybody. So to hear this side, it's almost like they're like, "Wow, I wish we could have had that. I wish we could have gone through that." It's interesting that when you bring it up ... no one would ever bring it up, but when you talk about it, it does open up a really interesting conversation. Dr. Bob: Well, that's why I so appreciate you being here and being willing to have this conversation because this is the kind of thing that people, they need to be able to share these discussions. Imagine what my party conversations are like. My wife hates going to parties with me because invariably people ask what I do, and we start talking about these conversations, about situations. Then they start telling about their experiences. For me, I live and breathe it, but I recognize that not everybody has the same comfort level with it. But people are fascinated when they understand that there is another better option. Patient Son: I'd just say that the whole thing is so sad in terms of the disease and knowing nothing about it until he was diagnosed. To see how he deteriorated physically so fast. The disease doesn't normally have pain associated with it, but he was a different case where he had so many orthopedic issues from surgeries, he was in incredible amounts of pain. It was so sad to see that. For him to be able to make this decision and to escape that pain while being so sharp mentally and so forth. I think it was one of the best things that happened in this journey. Like my brother said, we're so appreciative because we cared about him so much, and so many people in San Diego and the surrounding communities do. He was very well loved, and he deserved, like so many other people in this world, to go out the way that he did, on his own terms. Thank you so much. We'll always be appreciative for that. Dr. Bob: Alright guys. So Chris, Brian, Eric, thanks for being part of the conversation. You're awesome. Thank you all for tuning in to this episode of Life and Death Conversation.
One of the best definitions of sales I have ever heard on selling“Selling is getting someone intellectually engaged in a future result that is good for them, and getting them to emotionally commit to take action to achieve that result.” Dan Sullivan (who is just a genius) The definition is not that I have something they need and, by golly, I going to make them buy it. Please, please, please buy my services…. So let’s go through the definition again. Selling is getting someone intellectually engaged in a future result that is good for them, and getting them to emotionally commit to take action to achieve that result. So really, what does that look like? What are the steps to actually make that happen? Well I think number one, you really need to listen perceptively. In the old days a salesman pitch was… you get it down, go over it and continue to role-play and do all the things to make sure that you, the sales person, was comfortable with the sales process. I think one of the biggest challenges with something like that kind of pitch is rigidity. It’s great that you should know your sales process and that you should know what you want to say. BUT I think what probably more important than anything is that you need be yourself. You can’t go into a sales situation or presentation to your customer thinking that “I can beat the other guy’s price.” You really need to take ownership of who you are. You have to be comfortable with who you are and you have to have the self-confidence of knowing what you can do. Knowing that you can provide the services and the quality of services that you’re presenting to your potential client. I can’t really say that over all that it works on commercial clients, at least the ones that are only looking for the bid price. I do know that it works well with the residential customers and clients that I have. I don’t do a whole lot of commercial sales for the services that we have, but I follow the same process for that also. I am comfortable with who I am, I know who I am, I know the type of service that I am going to provide. Most importantly, I what that service is costing me to provide! I know the type of profit margin that I need to make to keep my company sustainable in the marketplace. That’s what I mean by knowing particularly who you are. Be confident of the person in your skin. I actually think that once you put yourself in the position of going through the sales process and second-guessing yourself and not knowing what you want to charge… thinking that “I know that Bob So-and-so my competitor was here, and I know what he charges, so I’m going to be real close to him, maybe a little below so that so I can get the business.” That is not knowing who you are. That’s being wishy-washy. That’s not having the confidence in who you are, what you can do and what you can provide to that customer. YOU KNOW that customer sees you weakness, he sees your inability to be genuine and he sees your neediness because they see that battle going on in your presentation. When you chase after what other people are charging, then you’re back to being a commodity and you are not going to make it in the marketplace and be an extremely profitable company. In order for you to have an abundance mindset, you need to be who you are. You need to find your identity so that you can run the course, be positive, be genuine, and be confident in your own skin. Here’s what really happens if you’ve done your marketing correctly and you have educated the consumer correctly through your marketing. Mostly your job is already done. They called you because they want to know if you could provide the value that you say you can from your marketing materials, so they just want to meet you. That’s why it’s so important for you to be genuine when you know who you are. Also, story building is a great part of the sales process. Actually the nurturing stories are the greatest relationship builders. It is like Mr. Rogers used to say, “it’s hard not like someone once you know their story.” As a sales person, we must first be able to relate to the customer to help solve the customer’s problems. I believe by delivering the facts, you build trust and by educating your client, you will give your clients new ways to think about their problems. As sales superstars we do many things… we attract, we teach, we advise, we serve, we measure. And most importantly, we guide our clients and prospects by developing individual brand (that’s us) that stands for trust and expertise. In order for all that to happen, for me to close and get the sale, I have to provide the client with the emotional response or let’s go back to our beginning definition… “Selling is getting someone intellectually engaged in a future result that is good for them, and getting them to emotionally commit to take action to achieve that result.” This just takes a few simple steps. We will have to listen and be perceptive to what is actually going on in the sales meeting. We need to listen to what our customers’ real problems are and how they think that problem can be solved. So what is perceptive listening? Perceptive listening is when you hear, interpreting the words as they are said, AND that you also consider what the person isn’t saying, what she might really be thinking and how she is acting as they speak. This requires you to be totally focused on what their needs are and what you’re trying to sell. Perceptive listening will tell you what the prospect says he Tells You. Prospect says he’s not ready to buy, but what he’s really saying is that he doesn’t understand the benefits of what you’re offering. Perceptive listening is how you draw out what the potential customers are really passionate about allowing you to understand their goals and objectives. In today’s world there are so many teaching opportunities for our clients who are our future customers. Teaching them actually sells them, or at least presales them, by giving them useful expert information. That’s how you build an expert platform, by creating the information they need to make an informed decision, So by creating expert platform, you are now becoming the authority in that area (the industry and the geographic area you serve). Once you become that authority, you normally have very, very little competition. You see, what you’re doing is you are sending a message that by being the expert, you are no longer competing on price as a commodity business. You don’t want to show up at a customer’s house, write out a proposal and say, “this is the price.” You want to go through and educate them. You want to leave behind sales materials. You want to talk with them and walk around the house, or sit down with them and go through whatever you’re going to go through with them. You want to explain the process, what you do and why you do it and maybe the safety factors. Go through all the benefits of working with your company. By what you’re presenting, you are making them more informed, showing you have more expertise, you are better educated and more professional by the way you talk and explain things to them. Then you’re going to leave them with material that backs up everything you just presented. When they go over it, they will say, “I remember he said this, I remember he said that when he went through the information and our Proposal.” So, let me just get you a couple of examples of something that just happened to me recently. In this sales situation I got a call to come out and do an estimate on some work at this potential customer house and he told me that everything he wanted done. I met him at the house, we walked around, and he explained what he wanted done. As we went through, I told him about what our process was, how we did things, how we protected things and as I got towards the end of our walk around the house, I asked, by the way how did you find out about us… His answer was “on the Internet” and he said to me, I checked you out on the Internet. As a matter fact you were the first person we called, and something happened where you couldn’t get out. You were real busy, and we were impressed with all the information that you had on your website. It very informative for us and easy to make an informed decision. We have two other people that we got prices from and we called you again because we really wanted you to come out and give us a proposal on all the work we need to be done here because we felt that you were the most professional. So, I put together the proposal, I talked to them about it and I left him some more information. Basically, everything that we talked about in a report that I give each potential customer and I will let you know how that turns out. Next let me tell you another example of how I presented in a sales situation. I had a phone meeting with someone that I want to buy a particular service. We had a meeting on the phone. I know the man, I like the man, I trusted the man and we had talked before but not about what I wanted to purchase from him. We just knew each other so that was a big plus on his side as we did our telephone conversation. He went over the his products and services that I was interested in, going into great detail about what the whole program was, what the benefits were and how he would help me get through the whole process. We went over the dates of the seminar that I wanted to attend and he said, “listen, this is how I handle my sales process… I give you all the stuff we just went over and you know that the class is going to be very small, like just 4 to 5 people. The class will sell out and if you can’t make this one, that’s fine, and if you don’t want to do it all, that’s fine too. But if you do want to do it, this is the date. Let me know right away if you want to attend before it fills up. We have another class in January that you are also than welcome to attend” and that’s how he left it. He followed the definition to a tee, “Selling is getting someone intellectually engaged in a future result that is good for them, and getting them to emotionally commit to take action to achieve that result.” Go sell your services at a premium! Until next week… There are so many ways to do almost free marketing you just have to think about it or you could just go to the web site and pick up the free download. 4 Hot Marketing Strategies That Can Flood Your Business with Customers If you have a story to tell and would like to be a guest on this podcast email my assistant Shell at Shell@contractorssecretweapon.com and she will send you our guest sheet. Our sponsors Would you like your phone to ring more with qualified buyers people looking to buy now? Then let’s make that happen. Best Home Services Leads is dedicated to making your phone ring with qualified buyers wanting to buy now. Go to and fill out the form to get more information. http://contractorssecretweapon.com/money How about 100 free postcards sent out to your best prospective customers. Radius Bomb sends out hyper targeted, laser focused postcards using a map while sitting in your under ware at your kitchen table then go to http://contractorssecretweapon.com/radiusbomb Painting Contractors, get up to a 24% better response rate just for having the right memorable telephone number 1-800-PRO-PAINTER.Check out your area before someone beats you to it and it’s not available. https://www.1800propainter.com/
Elizabeth Semenova is the Director of Operations at Integrated MD Care. She shares her insights and personal stories about dealing with loss. The holidays can be an especially difficult time, listen to how Elizabeth handled her own loss and how she and Dr. Bob help others. Transcript Dr. Bob: Welcome to A Life and Death Conversation with Dr. Bob Bob Uslander. I'm here with a guest who I'm excited to introduce everybody to, and somebody who has a wealth of experience and insights. And I'm very pleased to have her as part of my expanding team here at Integrated MD Care. So you're going to get to know quite a bit about my new director of operations for the practice, Elizabeth Semenova.Elizabeth, say hello to our listeners. Elizabeth: Hello. Dr. Bob: So Elizabeth came to us a few months back. And the way that we initially met was through a referral that she had made to us for a gentleman who was struggling with Parkinson's disease and was really at the tail end of his life, and Elizabeth made a recommendation that he contact us. And it was a real blessing for us to be able to meet this gentleman and guide him through the last weeks of his life. After that, we just had a few more encounters. And, Elizabeth, maybe you can share how what it was about what we do that drew you in and kind of encouraged to you to reach out and try to become part of the tribe. Elizabeth : Well, after I referred friends, clients to you, I looked more into what it is that you do and how you do it, and explored information that I received from other sources about your work, and I was inspired by your openness to life and death and your perspective on the importance of accepting and talking about death as a part of life. I was particularly intrigued by your willingness to support patients and families who are looking for resources, education, and services regarding the End of Life Option Act in California. So that's how I came to connect with your practice. Dr. Bob: Cool. Well, we're very happy that you did, and just to kind of summarize, Elizabeth came on, and we didn't have a social worker who was working with us. Elizabeth has a master's in social work and had been working as a social worker within the hospice world for several years. And we were really blessed to have her come and go out. She went out on a handful of patient visits when I was doing initial evaluations for people who were looking at aid and dying. And it was a real blessing to have her expertise and just her presence there to support those patients and families. Then we just had some changes at the office, and it became very clear that Elizabeth had a strong leadership ... had some strong leadership experience and genes. And everybody in the practice really felt comfortable with her guidance, and I offered her the position to help lead the practice, which has been great. So it's just been a short time, but the difference in our efficiency and just getting things done has jumped quite a bit. So we appreciate your very wise counsel and leadership, and it will continue to be a blessing for all of us for a long time to come. Elizabeth: I'm very humbled by your confidence and appreciation. Dr. Bob: Well, there's more to come. So let's talk a little bit ... We've had some conversations, many conversations around our individual kind of perspectives and feelings about death and how to work with people through those challenges. I know that you've had some very personal experience with loss and death in your life, and I'd like to hear a bit about that if you're comfortable sharing. And let's see how we can provide some valuable guidance, comfort, wisdom for some other people who might need that at this point. Elizabeth: Sure. I first encountered grief and loss and bereavement when I was in seminary, and I took a class on the subject. I remember being very inspired by everything that we read and discussed, but feeling a little disconnected from it, not really knowing how to understand it or contextualize it. Dr. Bob: Had you had any personal loss up until that point? Elizabeth: I had lost grandparents, but no unexpected losses, no tragic losses at that point. And several years later, I was living in Colorado with my daughter, who was nine at the time, and we received a phone call from my brother-in-law, who was my daughter's father's brother. So my daughter's father and I were married when she was a baby and had since separated but stayed very, very close as family and friends. And his brother called me to let me know that he had died suddenly in a car accident. That was my first real experience with death and loss. And at the time, as I said, my daughter was nine. So my purpose was to make the process as comfortable and manageable for her as I could, to do what I could to contribute to her healing and resilience in dealing with the loss of her father. Dr. Bob: So you were dealing with it on your own and then having to understand, learn how to navigate that for her as well. Elizabeth: Yes, and I think that I didn't deal much with it on my own at first because I was so focused on caring for her. The initial loss was devastating. I mean, the pain in my body and the tears were endless. And I remember reaching out to friends and just feeling so lost and unable to think or function or grapple with the pain that was physical as well as spiritual and emotional, which really surprised me. I didn't realize that that was something that could happen. But I turned my attention to making sure that she was okay. So it was really a few years before I started to deal with my own experience of the loss. Dr. Bob: Had you had at that point training in ... Had you been through the social work training or had been involved in any way with hospice? Elizabeth: No. At that point, I hadn't had any experience end-of-life care, palliative care, hospice care. I went into my master's program in social work later, so I had been involved in social services but not in any official certified capacity and not with this field at all. I'd worked a lot with homeless populations, mental health recovery, addiction recovery and really didn't have any context for dealing with loss other than what I had touched upon briefly in seminary. Dr. Bob: So now several years later, you're in a very different place. You have a whole different set of experiences and knowledge base. And so it's interesting because you can probably look back at how you managed and how you responded to things and helped your daughter, and see it through a different lens because you would probably ... I'm assuming that that experience helped educate you about how to support others who might find themselves in similar circumstances going forward. Is that a fair assessment? Elizabeth: I think that's right, although I would say that the experience of a sudden tragic loss that is unexpected is very different from the experience of being with someone on hospice or someone who is more naturally at the end of their life. My father-in-law died several years later on hospice of cancer, and we had the opportunity to be with him, and to say goodbye, and to share love and memory with the family. I would say that that educated me more on how to be a hospice social worker than the experience of losing Natalia's father. Dr. Bob: I get that. Yeah, for me, the loss of my parents, neither of which was completely unexpected--they each had their struggles in different capacities, but it wasn't sudden and traumatic, which adds just a whole multiple layers of complexity to, I imagine to the grieving process. So can you share ... Do you have some thoughts that you'd like to share for people who might be in circumstances like that, who might still be grieving after a traumatic loss, especially with respect to children? Elizabeth: Sure. Dr. Bob: Not to put you on the spot, but I just- Elizabeth: I would say that the first most important thing is to reach out to people, to stay connected because it's an extremely isolating emotional experience. It's rare, and it can feel uncommon and lonely, so in order to stay stabilized, especially on behalf of my daughter, reaching out was really an important part of making things work. In the context of helping my daughter, I had never experienced that kind of loss as a child, so I didn't know what she might need from first-hand experience. So I reached out to friends of mine who had lost parents at a very young age, and I had two friends in particular who were very helpful in sharing with me their experience, what was important to them, what they felt was missing from care that could've been provided for them. The thing that stood out the most to me was they talked a great deal about people shying away from the subject and how that was detrimental to their recovery, to their healing, to their resiliency. So I made efforts to be very open and communicative with my daughter about the circumstances of the loss, the experience of the loss both for her and for other family members, and to share vulnerability of my own sorrow with her. And I think that that openness has been helpful to her. I think that she would say that we've created a safe space for her to be however she is, and to feel however she feels, and to share that, and to not feel alone with it. Dr. Bob: I think that's probably really critical to not feel like there is ... just to feel like it's okay to feel however you feel and not to have any expectation or to feel like, "Oh my goodness, it's been four years or five years, and I should be over it, but it's still painful," but for you to allow that and to help them see that this too shall pass. Things cycle and the feelings will come, and they will go, and to be able to freely express that has got to be critical. Elizabeth: Yeah, and I think another thing that really stood out was that everybody's grief experience is different, so allowing her to know and accept that my experience would be different from hers and that she doesn't have to match my emotional experience with the loss of her father, that she doesn't have to expect anything of herself, that I don't expect anything of her, and that it's okay to be. However, she is with it at the time of the loss and going forward because I don't know what her life will hold in terms of how she integrates this into her world, into her emotional experience. I don't know how it's going to impact her, and I just want her to know that whatever it is that she needs, she has access to the support that I can provide and that others can provide, and that it's always okay to let that experience be a part of who she is, and that it can shape her, but it doesn't have to overwhelm her. Dr. Bob: It's beautiful. Elizabeth: Thank you. Dr. Bob: You said something I wanted to touch on a little bit, in that people tend to shy away from the subject. And I see this all the time after someone dies, I think especially when it's someone younger or it's unexpected, sudden, is that the people around who might be very well-meaning who would want to provide comfort are afraid that because they don't know what to say, they don't want to make things worse. They don't want to say something that will be offensive or painful. So they probably instead don't say anything, don't call. That discomfort creates this distance. Do you have thoughts about how people ... because not so many people ... Like you said, it's rare for somebody to experience a sudden traumatic loss in their own life, but it's not as rare for people to know somebody who they care about who is in this position. So can we try to provide some guidance for people who are wanting the comfort or connect with someone who's had a loss? Elizabeth: Yeah. I would say that there are no words that make sense at that time, and to have the expectation that there's the right thing to say or that something you can do will make it better will solve the problem or somehow fix something is an unrealistic expectation. I think that death is such a part of life that it can't be ignored, and being willing to be simply present with people as they experience loss and grieve that loss at the time of the loss and ongoing because it becomes a part of their life, is the most you can offer. I don't think that there is anything that a person should do to help support someone other than just be there for them and with them. Dr. Bob: Yeah, I mean, I agree. I think that there are ... It's a challenge because you don't want to push yourself on somebody, and I know when people say--they're very well-meaning--"Call me if there's anything I can do if there's anything you need." But in that situation, most people aren't going to call on people other than a select few and say, "Oh, I need someone to be with me," or, "I need meals prepared because I can't function enough to cook for my family." Elizabeth: And I think that's a factor of our society's unwillingness to be comfortable with death. It's not considered acceptable to be in deep sorrow, and to need support, and to reach out to a friend or a loved one. I've heard a lot of people, especially spouses, share that their family members, after a certain number of months or years say, "It's time to move on," and that, to me, doesn't make any sense. If someone needs support around grief and loss, it could be at any time. It could be immediately after the death. It could be months later. It could be years later, to be available to offer a cup of tea, to just show up with a small gift, to send flowers to let them know you're thinking about them. I think small gestures that aren't intrusive but are thoughtful can make a really big difference. And those small gestures will let someone know more than just saying, "Call me if you need anything. I'm really here with you. I'm thinking about you." And it opens a door that people might not realize is even there." Dr. Bob: At the time of this recording we're coming up towards the holidays, and I'm wondering if you have thoughts about ... We're talking about children. We were focusing a bit on children, and there are a lot of children who are facing their first Christmas, their first Hanukkah, their first New Year's without somebody. It could be a grandparent. It could be a parent. It could be a sibling. You have anything you'd like to share about how to support the families, especially children through that, those holiday times after a loss? Elizabeth: I'm getting a little emotional as I'm remembering our first holidays without Natalia's father. Something that we've done that she has expressed to me has been really helpful is finding different ways of memorializing him and making him a part of new traditions. So we still have a stocking for him on the fire place. We have made crafts, little ornaments for the Christmas tree that she and I made together in remembrance of him. We make sure to spend holiday time with his family who is still very much our family and to really include him in the things that we do either through memories, or through creating small things that we can carry with us, or through creating new traditions that he can be a part of. And since his passing, we have found new family members and welcomed other people into our world, and I think that it would be really interesting to get their perspective on this, but they have been very open to him being a part of our traditions and our family, and I think that it can be maybe hard to balance the loss of a loved one with the integration of new loved ones. And it's a different kind of blended family. But, again, I think that open communication is the thing that has really made a difference for us, being willing to openly share our love for someone who is gone and at the same time share love for people who are here and know that they're not mutually exclusive, and know that we can all be a family together, and offering that knowledge and experience to my daughter, who has to learn to live with both the loss of her past and the future that awaits her. Dr. Bob: And partly the future that in some ways was created through that loss. Elizabeth: Yes. Dr. Bob: So we talk about silver linings. And after the death of someone who's young and vital, who we expected to be part of our life for decades to come, it's hard to think about silver linings in those circumstances, but sometimes we don't know ultimately what the purpose of our life is. We don't know what the meaning, the reason for our sometimes premature departure. But I know that there are many instances where a death has resulted in new relationships developing and new understandings developing, which wouldn't have happened otherwise. And we don't get to decide whether ... You don't get to weigh the consequences of one versus the other, but we have to appreciate that there are these positive outcomes. And, like you said, you have to reconcile that because I would imagine especially children, they would never want to think that it's okay that this happened, that death occurred because this happened. That would be very I think hard for someone to reconcile. But we have to somehow be okay with all of that, right? We have to learn to be okay with all of it. Elizabeth: Yeah. I at one point in my life received a label of the queen of the silver lining because of my [infallible 00:24:53] optimism. I think that that is not mutually exclusive with the experience of sorrow and teaching my daughter that we can be both happy with the life that we've built since the loss and also deeply wounded by the loss are not mutually exclusive, are something that we can reconcile and that we can live with simultaneously. It's difficult, and it takes a long time I think to bring those things together, to integrate them, but I think that like anything in life, there's a gray area that balances the life and the death, the light and the dark. And being able to live with that unknown, the in-between, I think that's a goal that I've encountered since losing someone that I loved. Dr. Bob: And I'm sure that that understanding has been extremely valuable for others that you've been able to counsel and engage with in your capacity as a social worker, as a friend. I do, the other thing that you mentioned that I completely, wholeheartedly agree with is the value of communication. It think the families, the people who have the most difficulty in struggle and have the most negative impact throughout their lives are those who can't communicate, who don't know how to communicate when they're in this, reeling through these circumstances that they didn't bring on, that they have no control over. Communication is so critical. Elizabeth: Absolutely, and I think that noticing that has been a huge part of what has inspired me to become an advocate for education in this field and for working to create those conversations and allow people to be a little bit more comfortable with acknowledging and experiencing the difficulty and the discomfort that surrounds conversations about life and death. Dr. Bob: Wow, a little light morning conversation topic, but this is really valuable. This is wonderful, and I think that there's so much more than we could tap into and touch on. And I'm going to ask if you're willing to come back and have an additional conversation or two with me? Elizabeth: I would be honored. Dr. Bob: Yeah, I think we have a lot more to discuss. We've been together and with some patients and families, and there will be many other opportunities for us to have these Life and Death Conversations, which I hope others will find some to be interesting and valuable. So thank you for sitting with me and having this conversation today. It was really informative, and really I'm sure valuable for many of our listeners. Elizabeth: Thank you for the invitation. Dr. Bob: Alright. Signing off now. We'll be back and chatting with you again soon.
He Yang:A deliveryman’s hand-drawn maps to avoid traffic jam in Beijing have gone viral. Apparently they are good enough to beat even the most powerful navigation apps. Working as a courier for nearly ten years, Dou Liguo said he has a good understanding of the roads at Wangjing and Sanyuanqiao, so Sanyuan bridge, known for their congestion. So he drew these maps up to help new deliverymen and women to choose the right and most effective roads. Guys, have you checked out these maps?Yu Yang:Yes, definitely. And the seven maps are really amazing. The maps include the road names, marks information on possible heavy traffic and the best solutions. As most of the roads go through communities, nameless lanes and parks. This courier use the black lines and red lines to mark landmark buildings and the most time-saving routes respectively. And what’s very interesting is that the courier also marks a dog that suggests, ok, maybe pet dogs might appear on this road. Bob:So useful.Yu Yang:Yeah! He marked what time usually the square dancing started.Bob:That’s a real hazard, isn’t it? If you get caught up in that, that’s you stuck.Yu Yang:Yeah. So when during this square dancing time, it’s better not to choose the lanes, it’s better to use the bigger road.He Yang:I think that’s so cool. Hat’s off to this guy, this is, hands down, the best map in the world to me.Bob:Because you could have kept this to himself, cause he could have just used it for his own benefit, but he seems to make it available to everybody. That’s his dedication, isn’t it? Dedication to helping society, helping people travel around.He Yang: And helping people who are newcomers into his occupation. I think that is a very good-hearted person and also just to say how amazing this map is. I don’t think any navigation app out there available at the moment gives such details and you know specific to the area kind of alerts. So this is very, very cool.Bob:Certainly, I have never seen an option on the apps to avoid the square dancing or the dogs. And yeah, that’s so crucial.He Yang;And why do you think that a man like Mr. Dou what be so honorably dedicated to his line at work?Yu Yang:I think there’s a spirit there. And no matter what kind of jobs you do, you treated as your lifelong career and you do your best and you have a future there. So that’s (what) many people lack.Bob:I think the biggest thing that worries me is because this map now has gone viral on the Internet, but the problem is so many people will be using it, that these little lanes and these little roads are gonna become so busy. So it almost defeats the object that he’s made it so popular.Yu Yang:But these kind of lanes and the small routes may be work for delivery man using like electronic tri-cycles, but not for drivers of cars.He Yang: So it still made for the delivery people. Yeah, and it kind moved me when I looked at the map, because these days it’s so hard to get hand-made stuff to start with. And it’s a hand-drawn map and I admire the level of dedication and thought that’s put into his work. And I think for anybody who’s so dedicated into devote it to your line of job, no matter what you do, you will be number one.Yu Yang:Oh yeah. And also another point I think this shows with the development of E-commerce, the service industry is becoming more and more standardized. You know there’s agreement between the customer and the courier and the courier try their best to follow the deal and to fulfill the commitment.He Yang:And for a day like today when it’s raining and I see delivery guys out there still on the road. You guys are our heroes in a rainy day and in a very modern China today.
Heyang: Apparently, girls love shopping. But boys don't necessarily. Dragging a reluctant man with you can diminish the pleasure of shopping. It can be suffering for the man as well. A so-called "Husband storage" might be a solution to this dilemma as some shopping malls are offering the service right now here in China. Tell me a little bit more about storage of the man.Ryan: Absolutely, because we men are offended, ok? We are offended that you will store us and I am proposing girlfriends storage for when guys want to play video games with their buddies and the girlfriend doesn't want to play video games with the buddies, so you store your girlfriend somewhere.Bob: This is warfare. This is war of the sexes. You are breaking up before our eyes. Ryan: But let me talk about what is actually happening in the mall in Fuzhou that is getting famous online because a literally husband cloakroom. It's a place for men can sit down take a little rest, read books, look magazines, in charge mobile phone, free WiFi is available and so basically this is getting a lot of hype, some of the ladies really like this kind of romanticism of them being able to shop and not have their boyfriend trail behind me like "Are we done yet?" "Are we done?" And they can be as free as they want while the guy does his WiFi and whatever he wants to do in a room with other guys. Heyang: Yeah, Ryan, I cannot believe that you think this is girls just ditching their beloved significant other, and so she can enjoy her shopping. It's not about that at all. It's about thinking for your significant other. Do you honestly wanna be dragged around looking at shoes and dresses? We are sparing you time and honoring your wishes, so you can look at your phone which you really wanna do and not the pretty dress I'm right now.Ryan: You know what? I disagree. I would love to go around with my girlfriend in do shopping and tell her what I think looks good and have a say on maybe some of the wardrobes she picks. And at the same time, I'm realizing that guy at least in the relationship when you working the nine to five Monday through Friday. When you go out on the weekend, that's your time to spend time together, quality time and even when she's shopping and even when you are shopping, you can be talking and catching up on all these the gossip or whatever happening at work, just sharing those moments together that you don't get throughout the week. That's my personal view on it. I think it is kind of things promote and I was just talking to a friend about it the other day, promotes this kind of weird phenomenon that's happening now. You go to a restaurant, you see two, a couple sitting down and instead of enjoying each other's accompany, they are enjoying their mobile phone and they are doing things, they just eating in complete silence. When I see that, what I told my friends was why go out to dinner, why even being in a relationship. I feel like relationships are enjoying each other's accompany. I believe something like this promotes kind like "ok, I am done with you, I am gonna use like money and go buy stuff and when I need that, you can come to me and buy my stuff." Bob: I feel as I am intruding on a private argument, but going back to, I sort of want to know, do women really care what their husbands or boyfriends think of the dress that they are going to buy and do the men in those relationships, do they really have an opinion? I think this is the big problem. Is it worth having your husband or boyfriend with you while trying to buy something which is really crucial. Heyang: I'm so glad you ask that question, Bob.Ryan: Dang-it, Bob.Bob: I want more money, pay me!Heyang: I thought I was the one that's gonna get the extra cash after the show from Bob and now maybe the table has turned. Yes, that is a very valid question and look at the designers, there usually homosexual manner or women and these are the people understand what looks good on women. Bob: So you need to take your best gay friend with you.Heyang: If you have a gay bestie, then yeah, he is a god send gift to you and what about your straight boyfriend or husband? Do they understand fashion? Do they understand what looks good on woman? I have some serious doubts. So basically it depends on who you are dressing up for?Ryan: No, but we understand. I got chip in for my fellow guys out there. No, but we understand that we love you and we wanna spend time with you. Being a girlfriend and sometimes that means not with doing which you wanna do, in which case that could be the guy playing video games and the girl doing something like shopping. Relationship are give and takes and I think this kind promotes some weird compromises, spend time with your loved one, even when they are not doing something you necessarily are excited about. Suck it up!Bob: I think, can I put my psychology hat on here? Can I? Very serious. Do you think you like it? It's very me. I think that's, one of the problems here is why are people staying closely, so closely together? And it might be, because the lady in this relationship wants to keep on an eye on the man to make sure, you know, he may have gone to the husband cloakroom and he maybe playing video games, who knows? Ryan: They need had a camera system so you can watch your husband as you shop.Bob: You need to be able to monitor exactly where he is, because as soon as the lady goes to choose the dress, the husband's left the husband's cloakroom and he is going to do something more interesting.Ryan: That's enough out of you, Bob.Bob: I just know your secrets.Ryan: But might you know, one of the netizens say why would the boyfriends even, why would they just stay home and I take that step further. Why you are in a relationship? If you are not spending time together doing something she likes to do, then I think this is a serious problem in your relationship. She should be doing some of the things you're interested in, you should be doing somethings she is interested in. I think it's healthy compromise in a relationship. That's what I'm saying.Heyang: Yes, but you're sharing a life together, you're sharing a lifetime together, there's plenty of time to do stuff together.Bob: And choosing a dress can feel like a lifetime.Heyang: Says the man in the room and that's exactly why we wanna leave you in the storage or at home.Ryan: Jesus, low blow, low blow.Bob: That's it. You cross the line.Heyang: Oh, dear! Our wechat listeners have so much to say about this. There're a few guys that are saying I would love to be in that storage with wifi. And being dragged around when you need to tell the lady whether she looks good or not and they always look the same. Thank you guys for telling the truth.
Heyang: A survey has found around 70 percent of respondents say that Chinese children begin learning English right before school age and of course we want to know if that is a good time to start learning a foreign language? Guys, let's start with the survey and its results first. Does it make any sense to you?Bob: I think well 59.4% of respondents started learning English between the ages of 3 and 5 while 7.8% of those surveyed began studying before the age of 3. I think that figure is the one that worries me slightly because this is learning another subject which I'm guessing that they would not necessarily need in daily life. I'm making a distinction there because where I come from a lot of people learn 2 languages at the same time in the home and they use both languages together equally. So perhaps in the home they'll use one language, they'll walk to a shop and use a different one, then they go to school and use their first language again. So that to me is a natural way of learning languages because you are using it on a daily basis. It's not learning a subject. It is something which you are taking as part of yourself. Xu Qinduo: Speaking from this point of view basically; it's not really about learning English before the school age. It's about learning any subject before the school age. Is that a good thing? Is that proper? That's the question! Of course we have to realize that cases are different from one another, they vary. Some cases, they probably have the language aptitude so probably it is easy for them to pick up a new language by watching TV or by listening to stories. It's easy for them! For others, probably later stage is better for you to pick up a new language. But in general I think that there is a bit over-emphasis for Chinese parents in terms of having their kids learn English or other subjects. Heyang: But, why are Chinese parents so eager in pushing their kids to start learning something from the tender age of 3? How is that?Xu Qinduo: I think it's based on this popular understanding which is not necessarily correct, the earlier the better. It's like in a competition where when you start first, you gain the advantage here.Bob: It's about parents wanting the best for their children. I guess they feel that learning English is going to give them a good start. They are going to have to learn it at some point anyway. Later on, they need to pass exams before they get anything else. So, I can understand that. I think I saw a survey somewhere that suggested if you start learning 2 or 3 languages at the same time, you never really get the depth of any one language. There's only so much you can take in. So it might look good if you are bilingual or maybe trilingual but the depth of the language is not so much as if you were learning or studying one. Xu Qinduo: Definitely. I tend to agree with that because it takes a lot of time to learn another language. If you are learning a third language, you don't have enough time to go deep in your native language in your first language say written literature. Bob: So, the first language is going to miss out?Xu Qinduo: Yeah, miss out, sacrifice to some degree. Also, learning 2 languages at the same time also you can see that they usually react a bit slower than it appears. But, ultimately as time goes on, they will pick up and basically have a good command of both languages. Good command to a degree, remember, what is a good command of language? Is it about you're able to say "Hi" or "Good Morning" or daily conversation or you are involved in academic discussions or you can write novels using both languages. It's about really the standards.Heyang: Yeah and if the parents have that kind of standards, they're asking for too much I'd say. I think for parents, yes they want the best for their kids and especially when it comes to learning a language, you can learn so many different other skills but when it comes to languages, there seems to be a common perception that the earlier you start the better secured you are in success of managing, mastering that language as you grow up. What do you guys think of that?Xu Qinduo: I think so in the sense that's right. A lot of research has shown that if you want to learn a new language, younger age is a better choice than say if you start from the age of 20. Heyang: Yeah…What do you think Bob?Bob: I was going to say, I keep on quoting studies that I don't know the name of but I'm going to say them anyway. One they've decided that if you learn a language, it actually helps you learn other things because you're learning something which has a flexible structure. But, also if you learn math which has a defined structure, that helps the brain. So, I'd like to see kids in primary school, the first school that they go to learning a language and I'd like to see them learning mathematics as well. I just think those are the 2 things that will put them in a good place for the rest of their life, for the rest of their education. Heyang: Yeah, I think actually I was trying to get at was if you start early, which you would be able to get that success in that language actually isn't the answer is no for me as I've actually done a little of my own research and surveying around people that I know who started learning a foreign language when they were really young often because their parents were working in a different country. So, they brought their kids with them and yes, when you're so young at 3 or 4 years old, you're starting that language acquisition process. Our brains work like sponges and it's so easy to take it in. But, is it so easy to keep it? That is a completely different story. So, more importantly is it about as we grow up, during the process of that, you still studied really hard.Xu Qinduo: Keep onHeyang: Keep going! That's the success to mastering a language and so many of our listeners have been asking me: "How did I do it?" I feel flattered. Yes, I started at 6 in the U.S. but then it was years of hard work of devotion into the language I loved that is English. Xu Qinduo: Hard work is the key.Heyang: I guess so. And also, you know what, listening to Roundtable and that's how you improve and maybe one day you can even become a host on an awesome show called Roundtable.
Heyang: A sincere invitation to meet up will be included in a busy schedule even if it means making time in between lunches and business conferences. If whoever's on the other end of the conversation not giving you an exact date but rather a "Let's meet sometime, another time" you may be on the receiving end of a polite declination, that is called "改天再约噢". So guys, how is the phase "改天再约" or "another day we meet up", how should we interpret it?Liu Yan: Well, I think the easiest way to interpret this thing is basically "let's say goodbye and that's it."Heyang: Hahahahaha… So cruel.Bob: Well it's cruel whichever way you say. I mean you could come out to it and just say "Look, I don't want to talk to you again. I can't help you, go away", or you could say "Oh yeah, let's meet up another day". So it means the same. So I still think, even if you just say "let's meet another day", it's just as cruel, because you know what's being said, in the back of your mind you know what's being said.Heyang: Should we comfort the sensitive souls and broken hearts of people that say "I was expecting another day will come and it never comes."Liu Yan: Well, there are people like that. I certainly think of that Chinese phrase "too young too simple." Hahahaha, 太傻太天真. So sometimes you just have to know that, certain things are not meant to be taken literally. So when people say that, that just means "let's say goodbye" and that's it.Bob: I think it gets more complicated, doesn't it? Because it's what is intended by somebody saying "let's meet another day" and what people perceive from that. Because sometimes even if I would say "we'll meet another day" meaning "we'll never gonna meet again. Thanks, goodbye." You might actually think "Oh, no, he really means it. That's great" You know. And you'll go home happy, because you've interpreted it in a different way. So I still think even once you've used this phrase, there is still plenty of room for misinterpretation. Hope, maybe the word is. Heyang: Oh, that glimmer of hope, that is dashed.Liu Yan: I don't know, maybe different people have different expectations. Personally, even if someone says the sentence to me in a very sincere way, I would still take it as goodbye. Cuz as far as I can see, if you really want to say "let's meet some other time", you will say something more than this. Probably say "okay, I will reach out to you on Wechat later and we'll set a date." If he adds that sentence, then I will believe what he actually means. Heyang: Okay, so I think here is sort of a time for people to comb through their previous social experience and there are so many of these situations that you kind of really need to read between the lines and you kind of need to really read the room as well to understand what it really means. And there are some other American equivalents apparently, and it would be interesting to hear what Bob has to comment on that.Bob: Translate them into British.Heyang: Yes please.Bob: So you go first with these phrases.Heyang: Okay, so first of all, at a restaurant, when an American says "It's so good, it's so delicious, I love it.", that means a normal meal. And when it's "It's not bad", the taste was not good. And when an American says "I was a bit disappointed", and basically the food is...Liu Yan: It's appalling.Heyang: Yeah, yeah. So Bob, how would interpret those words, or how would you say it?Bob: I was thinking about this earlier. I think that the more British people go over the top, the more that we say we love something, the opposite is true. So if I were to say…Heyang: You guys are twisted.Bob: Nonono, you just have to understand, you know. If you say "oh, that was quite nice" that means you REALLY liked it. Alright. But if we go beyond that and say "you know that was absolutely fabulous, I can't wait until we do it again.", that is for British person so disingenuous that "its never gonna happen again. I never want to see you again. Please don't take me to that restaurant. Umm, if I can I need to rush off now, because I'm feeling ill."Heyang: You know, okay, I think in that kind of situation... Bob correct me if I'm wrong, cuz I'm not British. But I think in those kinds of situations, you need to see the body reaction, the real reaction of that person. Because...Liu Yan: The body language.Heyang: Yeah, in the same situation when I was in London. Yeah I was on a date, and the guy was like... Very positive comments and I was trying to get to the bottom of it. And I saw that his face was like really happy and maybe I little bit red. And I was like "hmm, maybe things are going okay". But sometimes it's so twisted that in China, like usually, guys have this excuse of saying that when a girl says NO, she actually says YES". But often, when a girl says NO, it's NO, alright. Just for those Chinese guys. Anyway, but in that situation, in the UK, I felt sometimes when a British guy saying NO, actually it means YES. And what?Bob: Well YES means NO and NO means YES. I mean I don't think you can get very much clearer than that.Liu Yan: Well if that's the norm, then yes, you guys are twisted. And just so you know...Bob: You know what, I'll tell you what's the simple way of telling it, that is to see how long they breathe before they actually give you a reply. Because if they do it quick, that means they're delaying in giving you an answer, which means it's probably not the answer that you want. So just look at how they breathe.Heyang: Hahahaha, how they breathe and the adjectives that they are throwing into this.Bob: Yeah, just keep it low key and that's what you should do.Liu Yan: Just so you know, Bob, you're fabulous.Heyang: How should I interpret that?Bob: You know what, I'm not sure. Heyang: Liu Yan, just give it straight to us, what do you mean?Liu Yan: He's fabulous.Heyang: Okay, so take the word for it, is it?