Podcasts about stackblitz

Welcome to this week in NoCode + AI! Hosted by JJ Englert, this episode features an exclusive interview with Eric, the co-founder and CEO of Stack Blitz, now known as Bolt. The conversation delves into the turbulent yet inspiring journey of Bolt New, from the brink of shutting down to achieving a phenomenal $20 million in ARR within just two months. Eric shares insights into the challenges and pivots that led to this success, including the world's largest hackathon and a focus on non-developer users. The episode highlights major developments in the AI industry, including the acquisition saga surrounding Windsurf. JJ also announces a local AI training program he will be leading in Rochester. Tune in for a deep dive into Eric's entrepreneurial spirit, the growth of Bolt New, and the ever-evolving AI landscape.Learn more about Disco: https://bolt.new

Can you really build and launch a startup without writing code, or even knowing how to?As AI tools promise lightning-fast product development, many founders still fall into old traps: over-validating, under-executing, or waiting too long for a technical cofounder.In this episode, Chris Saad and Yaniv Bernstein are joined by Eric Simons, founder of StackBlitz and creator of the viral AI app builder Bolt.new. Eric shares how modern tools like Bolt and Cursor are redefining what it means to be a founder, turning product managers, designers, and even marketers into full-stack startup builders.They explore how AI coding agents are changing team composition, cycle times, and what the real founder skillset looks like in 2025.In this episode, you will:Discover why reality-based iteration—not ideas—is the true startup superpowerLearn how AI tools like Bolt give non-technical founders real shots on goalUnderstand the evolving role of the technical cofounder in the AI eraCompare top-down and bottom-up AI workflows (e.g. Bolt vs Cursor)Avoid common pitfalls when prompting AI tools to build production-grade appsExplore how startup team roles are converging—and where creative tension still mattersHear the origin story of Bolt's breakout growth and what made it an overnight success (after 7 years)The Pact Honor the Startup Podcast Pact! If you have listened to TSP and gotten value from it, please:Follow, rate, and review us in your listening appSubscribe to the TSP Mailing List to gain access to exclusive newsletter-only content and early access to information on upcoming episodes: https://thestartuppodcast.beehiiv.com/subscribe Secure your official TSP merchandise at https://shop.tsp.show/ Follow us here on YouTube for full-video episodes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNjm1MTdjysRRV07fSf0yGg Give us a public shout-out on LinkedIn or anywhere you have a social media followingKey linksGet your question in for our next Q&A episode: https://forms.gle/NZzgNWVLiFmwvFA2A The Startup Podcast website: https://www.tsp.show/episodes/Learn more about Chris and YanivWork 1:1 with Chris: http://chrissaad.com/advisory/ Follow Chris on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrissaad/ Follow Yaniv on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ybernstein/Producer: Justin McArthur https://www.linkedin.com/in/justin-mcarthurIntro Voice: Jeremiah Owyang https://web-strategist.com/

Maor Shlomo is the founder of Base44, an AI-powered app builder that he bootstrapped to an over $80 million acquisition by Wix in just six months. As a solo founder (with severe ADHD), he hit $1 million ARR just three weeks after launch and grew the product to more than 400,000 users, all while navigating two wars in Israel and never raising a dollar of outside funding.What you'll learn:1. The growth playbook that took Base44 from three friends to 400,000 users without spending any money on marketing2. How he hasn't written a single line of front-end code in three months—and how to structure your code repository to make it easier for AI to write your code3. His AI productivity stack that allowed him to compete against heavily funded competitors4. Why being a solo founder in AI might be the ultimate advantage (and the wedding story that almost killed the business)5. The story of signing the $80M acquisition deal while war broke out with Iran6. How to identify when to sell vs. stay independent (and why Maor chose acquisition despite being highly profitable)7. The counterintuitive product decision that tripled activation by removing a “helpful” feature8. How building in public on LinkedIn drove more growth than any paid channel—Brought to you by:Sauce—Turn customer pain into product revenue: https://sauce.app/lennyDscout—The UX platform to capture insights at every stage: from ideation to production: https://www.dscout.com/Contentsquare—Create better digital experiences: https://contentsquare.com/lenny/—Transcript: ⁠https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-base44-bootstrapped-startup-success-story-maor-shlomo⁠—My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/167384119/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation—Where to find Maor Shlomo:• X: https://x.com/ms_base44• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maor-shlomo-1088b4144/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Maor and Base44(08:16) The origin story: how Base44 came to be(14:55) Bootstrapping and solo founding: challenges and insights(22:52) Productivity hacks and tech stack for solo founders(27:23) How to get started using Base44(28:47) Thoughts on raising money(34:05) Distribution in the age of AI(36:09) Ambition and goals(40:05) Growth strategies: from first users to thousands(51:32) Building in public(57:42) The solo founder journey(01:00:23) Community support(01:03:23) Hackathons and partnerships(01:06:42) The importance of velocity in product development(01:08:20) Technical stack and infrastructure insights(01:15:24) Activation lessons(01:18:19) The acquisition journey with Wix(01:25:14) Final thoughts and advice for founders—Referenced:• Base44: https://base44.com/• Retool: https://retool.com/• Tzofim: https://www.israelscouts.org/• Y Combinator: https://www.ycombinator.com/• RescueTime: https://www.rescuetime.com/• Cursor: https://www.cursor.com/• Wix: https://www.wix.com/• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can't stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell• Building Lovable: $10M ARR in 60 days with 15 people | Anton Osika (CEO and co-founder): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika• Inside Bolt: From near-death to ~$40m ARR in 5 months—one of the fastest-growing products in history | Eric Simons (founder and CEO of StackBlitz): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-bolt-eric-simons• Behind the product: Replit | Amjad Masad (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/behind-the-product-replit-amjad-masad• Everyone's an engineer now: Inside v0's mission to create a hundred million builders | Guillermo Rauch (founder and CEO of Vercel, creators of v0 and Next.js): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/everyones-an-engineer-now-guillermo-rauch• Snowflake: https://www.snowflake.com• Yoav Orlev on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yoav-orlev-4a044b72• WhatsApp: https://www.whatsapp.com/• Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/• Google: https://about.google/• MongoDB: https://www.mongodb.com/• Deloitte: https://www.deloitte.com/• Render: Render.com• Claude 4: https://www.anthropic.com/news/claude-4• Gemini: https://gemini.google.com/app• Cloudflare: https://www.cloudflare.com/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Andrew Wilkinson is the co‑founder of Tiny, a holding company that quietly owns more than three dozen profitable internet and consumer brands, including Dribbble and the AeroPress coffee maker. Starting as a teenage barista and web designer, he's created a portfolio approaching $300 million in yearly sales (and he was personally worth over $1 billion at one point)—all without ever raising venture capital.In this conversation, you'll learn:1. The “fish where the fish are” framework for spotting high‑margin niches no one else notices2. The exact agent stack (Lindy, Replit, Limitless, and more) that supercharges Andrew's day-to-day productivity (and has replaced his assistant)3. How Andrew evaluates companies in less than 15 minutes using Buffett‑style moats and “lazy leadership”4. Telltale signs you should shut down (or never start) that startup idea5. His journey from crippling anxiety to clarity through SSRIs and ADHD medication6. His prediction that most knowledge work will be automated—and the skills to teach your kids now—Brought to you by:Sauce—Turn customer pain into product revenueEnterpret—Transform customer feedback into product growthMiro—A collaborative visual platform where your best work comes to life—Where to find Andrew Wilkinson:• X: https://x.com/awilkinson• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/awilkinson/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Andrew Wilkinson(04:07) Finding the right business idea(07:18) Avoiding common business pitfalls(11:58) Finding your unfair advantage(17:08) Fish where the fish are(20:08) Why boring is good(25:30) Bootstrapping vs. venture capital(31:20) Lessons from acquiring and managing businesses(36:47) Avoiding people problems(42:39) Leveraging AI in business and life(49:30) The Limitless device(53:13) Job displacement and AI's future impact(58:20) Advice for new grads(01:02:50) Parenting in the age of AI(01:05:26) The pursuit of happiness beyond wealth(01:10:10) Mental health and medication(01:16:45) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• Andrew's post on X with the Charlie Munger quote: https://x.com/awilkinson/status/1265653805443506182• Metalab: https://www.metalab.com/• Letterboxd: https://letterboxd.com/• AeroPress: https://aeropress.com/• Brian Armstrong on X: https://x.com/brian_armstrong• Warren Buffett's quote: https://quotefancy.com/quote/931119/Warren-Buffett-I-am-a-better-investor-because-I-am-a-businessman-and-a-better-businessman• Flow: https://www.getflow.com/• Instacart: https://www.instacart.com/• Things: https://culturedcode.com/things/• Dustin Moskovitz on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dmoskov/• Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/• Serato: https://serato.com/• Chris Sparling on X: https://x.com/_sparling_• Lindy: https://www.lindy.ai/• Replit: https://replit.com/• Behind the product: Replit | Amjad Masad (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/behind-the-product-replit-amjad-masad• David Ogilvy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ogilvy_(businessman)• Malcolm Gladwell's website: https://www.gladwellbooks.com/• Inside Bolt: From near-death to ~$40m ARR in 5 months—one of the fastest-growing products in history | Eric Simons (founder and CEO of StackBlitz): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-bolt-eric-simons• Building Lovable: $10M ARR in 60 days with 15 people | Anton Osika (CEO and co-founder): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika• Limitless: https://www.limitless.ai/• Perplexity: https://www.perplexity.ai/• Claude: https://claude.ai/• ChatGPT: https://chatgpt.com/• Gemini: https://gemini.google.com/app• William Gibson's quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/681-the-future-is-already-here-it-s-just-not-evenly• Palm Treo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Treo• Sam Altman on X: https://x.com/sama• Dario Amodei on X: https://x.com/darioamodei• Anthropic's CPO on what comes next | Mike Krieger (co-founder of Instagram): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropics-cpo-heres-what-comes-next• Challengers on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/movie/challengers/umc.cmc.53cuz33n4e74ixj8whccj87oc• Matic vacuum: https://maticrobots.com/• Jerzy Gregorek's quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/8652595-hard-choices-easy-life-easy-choices-hard-life• Tiny: https://www.tiny.com/• Dribbble: https://dribbble.com/—Recommended books:• The Laws of Human Nature: https://www.amazon.com/Laws-Human-Nature-Robert-Greene/dp/0525428143• How to Get Rich: One of the World's Greatest Entrepreneurs Shares His Secrets: https://www.amazon.com/How-Get-Rich-Greatest-Entrepreneurs/dp/1591842719—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

David Placek is the founder of Lexicon Branding, a company that focuses exclusively on the development of brand names for competitive advantage. Lexicon is behind iconic names such as Sonos, Microsoft's Azure, Windsurf, Vercel, Impossible Foods, BlackBerry, Intel's Pentium, Apple's PowerBook, and Swiffer. Over 40 years, David's team has named nearly 4,000 brands and companies, employing over 250 linguists and pioneering naming innovation.What you'll learn:1. The three-step process that generated names like Windsurf and Vercel2. How a name can give you the edge that no marketing budget can buy3. Why you won't “know it when you see it”4. Why Microsoft called Azure “a dumb name” before it became their billion-dollar cloud platform5. Why polarizing opinions are the strongest signal that you've found the right name6. How every letter of the alphabet creates a specific psychological vibration7. The diamond framework: a 4-step process any founder can use to find their perfect name8. Why domain names don't matter anymore in the age of AI—Brought to you by:WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUsStripe—Helping companies of all sizes grow revenueOneSchema—Import CSV data 10x faster—Where to find David Placek:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-placek-05a82/• Website: https://www.lexiconbranding.com—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to David and Lexicon Branding(04:44) The story of Sonos(09:27) The psychology of naming(11:33) The initial resistance to Microsoft's Azure(14:35) The importance of a great brand name(18:11) The three steps of naming: create, invent, implement(28:23) Qualities of great brand name creators(31:24) How long the naming process takes(32:12) The Windsurf case study(36:10) Naming in the AI era(39:37) When to change your name(43:10) The role of linguists(45:54) The power of letters in branding(48:15) The Vercel case study(50:12) The implementation phase(52:52) Client management and market success(55:16) The diamond exercise(01:04:23) Suspending judgment(01:07:31) Polarization and boldness(01:11:01) Domain names(01:12:48) Final thoughts and lightning round—Referenced:• PowerBook: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerBook• Pentium: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium• BlackBerry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlackBerry• Swiffer: https://www.swiffer.com/• Impossible Burger: https://impossiblefoods.com/• Vercel: https://vercel.com/• Windsurf: https://windsurf.com/• CapCut: https://www.capcut.com/• Azure: https://azure.microsoft.com/• Sonos: https://www.sonos.com/• John MacFarlane on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-macfarlane-08a8aa20/• Harry Potter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Potter_(film_series)• The Call of the Wild: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Call_of_the_Wild• Everyone's an engineer now: Inside v0's mission to create a hundred million builders | Guillermo Rauch (founder and CEO of Vercel, creators of v0 and Next.js): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/everyones-an-engineer-now-guillermo-rauch• Sound symbolism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_symbolism• Anduril: https://www.anduril.com/• Anthropic: https://www.anthropic.com/• Inside Bolt: From near-death to ~$40m ARR in 5 months—one of the fastest-growing products in history | Eric Simons (founder and CEO of StackBlitz): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-bolt-eric-simons• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can't stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell• Building a magical AI code editor used by over 1 million developers in four months: The untold story of Windsurf | Varun Mohan (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-untold-story-of-windsurf-varun-mohan• Y Combinator: https://www.ycombinator.com/• Chevrolet Corvette: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Corvette• Viagra: https://www.viagra.com/• In vino veritas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vino_veritas• Infoseek: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infoseek• Andy Grove: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Grove• Churchill at War on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81609374• Yellowstone on Prime Video: https://www.amazon.com/Yellowstone-Season-1/dp/B07D7FBB8Z• 1883 on Prime Video: https://www.amazon.com/1883-Season-1/dp/B0B8JTS8QW• 1923 on Paramount+: https://www.paramountplus.com/shows/1923/• Taylor Sheridan on X: https://x.com/taylorSheridan• Hardy fly rods: https://www.hardyfishing.com/collections/fly-rods• T.E. Lawrence quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/11340-all-men-dream-but-not-equally-those-who-dream-by• Lawrence of Arabia: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056172/• DreamWorks: https://www.dreamworks.com/—Recommended books:• Thucydides' Melian Dialogue: Commentary, Text, and Vocabulary: https://www.amazon.com/Thucydides-Melian-Dialogue-Commentary-Vocabulary/dp/0692772367• Resilience: Hard-Won Wisdom for Living a Better Life: https://www.amazon.com/Resilience-Hard-Won-Wisdom-Living-Better/dp/054432398X/• Churchill: Walking with Destiny: https://www.amazon.com/Churchill-Walking-Destiny-Andrew-Roberts/dp/1101980990—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Peter Deng has led product teams at OpenAI, Instagram, Uber, Facebook, Airtable, and Oculus and helped build products used by billions—including Facebook's News Feed, the standalone Messenger app, Instagram filters, Uber Reserve, ChatGPT, and more. Currently he's investing in early-stage founders at Felicis. In this episode, Peter dives into his most valuable lessons from building and scaling some of tech's most iconic products and companies.What you'll learn:1. Peter's one‑sentence test for hiring superstars2. Why your product (probably) doesn't matter3. Why you don't need a tech breakthrough to build a huge business4. The five PM archetypes, and how to build a team of Avengers5. Counterintuitive lessons on growing products from 0 to 1, and 1 to 1006. The importance of data flywheels and workflows—Brought to you by:Paragon—Ship every SaaS integration your customers wantPragmatic Institute—Industry‑recognized product, marketing, and AI training and certificationsContentsquare—Create better digital experiences—Where to find Peter Deng:• X: https://x.com/pxd• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterxdeng/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Peter Deng(05:41) AI and AGI insights(11:35) The future of education with AI(16:53) The power of language in leadership(21:01) Building iconic products(36:44) Scaling from zero to 100(41:56) Balancing short- and long-term goals(47:12) Creating a healthy tension in teams(50:02) The five archetypes of product managers(55:39) Primary and secondary archetypes(58:47) Hiring for growth mindset and autonomy(01:15:52) Effective management and communication strategies(01:19:23) Presentation advice and self-advocacy(01:25:50) Balancing craft and practicality in product management(01:30:40) The importance of empathy in design thinking(01:35:45) Career decisions and learning opportunities(01:42:05) Lessons from product failures(01:45:42) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• OpenAI: https://openai.com/• Artificial general intelligence (AGI): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_general_intelligence• Head of ChatGPT answers philosophical questions about AI at SXSW 2024 with SignalFire's Josh Constine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgbgI0R6XCw• Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?: https://www.npr.org/2025/05/21/1252663599/kashmir-hill-ai#:~:text=Now%20What• Herbert H. Clark: https://web.stanford.edu/~clark/• Russian speakers get the blues: https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11759-russian-speakers-get-the-blues/• Ilya Sutskever (OpenAI Chief Scientist)—Building AGI, Alignment, Future Models, Spies, Microsoft, Taiwan, & Enlightenment: https://www.dwarkesh.com/p/ilya-sutskever• Anthropic's CPO on what comes next | Mike Krieger (co-founder of Instagram): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropics-cpo-heres-what-comes-next• Kevin Systrom on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinsystrom/• Building a magical AI code editor used by over 1 million developers in four months: The untold story of Windsurf | Varun Mohan (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-untold-story-of-windsurf-varun-mohan• Microsoft CPO: If you aren't prototyping with AI, you're doing it wrong | Aparna Chennapragada: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/microsoft-cpo-on-ai• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can't stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell• Building Lovable: $10M ARR in 60 days with 15 people | Anton Osika (CEO and co-founder): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika• Granola: https://www.granola.ai/• Inside Bolt: From near-death to ~$40m ARR in 5 months—one of the fastest-growing products in history | Eric Simons (founder and CEO of StackBlitz): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-bolt-eric-simons• OpenAI's CPO on how AI changes must-have skills, moats, coding, startup playbooks, more | Kevin Weil (CPO at OpenAI, ex-Instagram, Twitter): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai• Fidji Simo on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fidjisimo/• Airtable: https://www.airtable.com/• George Lee on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/geolee/• Andrew Chen on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewchen/• Lauryn Motamedi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurynmotamedi/• Twilio: https://www.twilio.com/• Nick Turley on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicholasturley/• Ian Silber on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/iansilber/• Thomas Dimson on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomasdimson/• Joey Flynn on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joey-flynn-8291586b/• Ryan O'Rourke's website: https://www.rourkery.com/• Joanne Jang on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jangjoanne/• Behind the founder: Marc Benioff: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/behind-the-founder-marc-benioff• Jill Hazelbaker on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jill-hazelbaker-3aa32422/• Guy Kawasaki's website: https://guykawasaki.com/• Eric Antonow on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/antonow/• Sachin Kansal on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sachinkansal/• IDEO design thinking: https://designthinking.ideo.com/• The 7 Steps of the Design Thinking Process: https://www.ideou.com/blogs/inspiration/design-thinking-process• Linear's secret to building beloved B2B products | Nan Yu (Head of Product): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/linears-secret-to-building-beloved-b2b-products-nan-yu• Jeff Bezos's quote: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27778175• Friendster: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendster• Myspace: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myspace• How LinkedIn became interesting: The inside story | Tomer Cohen (CPO at LinkedIn): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-linkedin-became-interesting-tomer-cohen• “Smile” by Jay-Z: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSumXG5_rs8&list=RDSSumXG5_rs8&start_radio=1• The Wire on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/the-wire• Felicis: https://www.felicis.com/—Recommended books:• Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind: https://www.amazon.com/Sapiens-Humankind-Yuval-Noah-Harari/dp/0062316095• The Design of Everyday Things: https://www.amazon.com/Design-Everyday-Things-Revised-Expanded/dp/0465050654• The Silk Roads: A New History of the World: https://www.amazon.com/Silk-Roads-New-History-World/dp/1101912375—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Sander Schulhoff is the OG prompt engineer. He created the very first prompt engineering guide on the internet (two months before ChatGPT's release) and recently wrote the most comprehensive study of prompt engineering ever conducted (co-authored with OpenAI, Microsoft, Google, Princeton, and Stanford), analyzing over 1,500 academic papers and covering more than 200 prompting techniques. He also partners with OpenAI to run what was the first and is the largest AI red teaming competition, HackAPrompt, which helps discover the most state-of-the-art prompt injection techniques (i.e. ways to get LLMS to do things it shouldn't). Sander teaches AI red teaming on Maven, advises AI companies on security, and has educated millions of people on the most state-of-the-art prompt engineering techniques.In this episode, you'll learn:1. The 5 most effective prompt engineering techniques2. Why “role prompting” and threatening the AI no longer works—and what to do instead3. The two types of prompt engineering: conversational and product/system prompts4. A primer on prompt injection and AI red teaming—including real jailbreak tactics that are still fooling top models5. Why AI agents and robots will be the next major security threat6. How to get started in AI red teaming and prompt engineering7. Practical defense to put in place for your AI products—Brought to you by:Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experimentsStripe—Helping companies of all sizes grow revenueVanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security—Where to find Sander Schulhoff:• X: https://x.com/sanderschulhoff• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sander-schulhoff/• Website: https://sanderschulhoff.com/• AI Red Teaming and AI Security Masterclass on Maven: https://bit.ly/44lLSbC• Free Lightning Lesson “How to Secure Your AI System” on 6/24: https://bit.ly/4ld9vZL—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Sander Schulhoff(04:29) The importance of prompt engineering(06:30) Real-world applications and examples(10:54) Basic prompt engineering techniques(23:46) Advanced prompt engineering techniques(29:00) The role of context and additional information(39:24) Ensembling techniques and thought generation(49:48) Conversational techniques for better results(50:46) Introduction to prompt injection(52:27) AI red teaming and competitions(54:23) The growing importance of AI security(01:02:45) Techniques to bypass AI safeguards(01:05:21) Challenges in AI security and future outlook(01:18:33) Misalignment and AI's potential risks(01:25:03) Final thoughts and lightning round—Referenced:• Reid Hoffman's tweet about using AI agents: https://x.com/reidhoffman/status/1930416063616884822• AI Engineer World's Fair: https://www.ai.engineer/• What Is Artificial Social Intelligence?: https://learnprompting.org/blog/asi• Devin: https://devin.ai/• Cursor: https://www.cursor.com/• Inside Devin: The world's first autonomous AI engineer that's set to write 50% of its company's code by end of year | Scott Wu (CEO and co-founder of Cognition): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-devin-scott-wu• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can't stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell• Granola: https://www.granola.ai/• Building Lovable: $10M ARR in 60 days with 15 people | Anton Osika (CEO and co-founder): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika• Inside Bolt: From near-death to ~$40m ARR in 5 months—one of the fastest-growing products in history | Eric Simons (founder & CEO of StackBlitz): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-bolt-eric-simons• Behind the product: Replit | Amjad Masad (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/behind-the-product-replit-amjad-masad• Everyone's an engineer now: Inside v0's mission to create a hundred million builders | Guillermo Rauch (founder and CEO of Vercel, creators of v0 and Next.js): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/everyones-an-engineer-now-guillermo-rauch• Technique #3: Examples in Prompts: From Zero-Shot to Few-Shot: https://learnprompting.org/docs/basics/few_shot?srsltid=AfmBOor2owyGXtzJZ8n0fJVCctM7UPZgZmH-mBuxRW4t9-kkaMd3LJVv• The Prompt Report: Insights from the Most Comprehensive Study of Prompting Ever Done: https://learnprompting.org/blog/the_prompt_report?srsltid=AfmBOoo7CRNNCtavzhyLbCMxc0LDmkSUakJ4P8XBaITbE6GXL1i2SvA0• State-of-the-Art Prompting for AI Agents | Y Combinator: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DL82mGde6wo• Use XML tags to structure your prompts: https://docs.anthropic.com/en/docs/build-with-claude/prompt-engineering/use-xml-tags• Role Prompting: https://learnprompting.org/docs/basics/roles?srsltid=AfmBOor2jcxJQvWBZyFa030Qt0fIIov3hSiWvI9VFyjO-Qp478EPJIU7• Is Role Prompting Effective?: https://learnprompting.org/blog/role_prompting?srsltid=AfmBOooiiyLD-0CsCYZ4m3SDhYOmtTyaTzeDo0FvK_i1x1gLM8MJS-Sn• Introduction to Decomposition Prompting Techniques: https://learnprompting.org/docs/advanced/decomposition/introduction?srsltid=AfmBOoojJmTQgBlmSlGYQ8kl-JPpVUlLKkL4YcFGS5u54JyeumUwlcBI• LLM Self-Evaluation: https://learnprompting.org/docs/reliability/lm_self_eval• Philip Resnik on X: https://x.com/psresnik• Anthropic's CPO on what comes next | Mike Krieger (co-founder of Instagram): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropics-cpo-heres-what-comes-next• Introduction to Ensembling Prompting: https://learnprompting.org/docs/advanced/ensembling/introduction?srsltid=AfmBOooGSyqsrjnEbXSYoKpG0ZlpT278NHQA6Fd8gMvNTJlWu7-qEYzh• Random forest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_forest• Chain-of-Thought Prompting: https://learnprompting.org/docs/intermediate/chain_of_thought?srsltid=AfmBOoqwE7SXlluy2sx_QY_VOKduyBplWtIWKEJaD6FkJW3TqeKPSJfx• Prompt Injecting: https://learnprompting.org/docs/prompt_hacking/injection?srsltid=AfmBOoqGgqbfXStrD6vlw5jy8HhEaESgGo2e57jyWL8lkZKktt_P6Zvn• Announcing HackAPrompt 2.0: The World's Largest AI Red-Teaming Hackathon: https://learnprompting.org/blog/announce-hackaprompt-2?srsltid=AfmBOopXKsHxy4aUtsvPCUtEu7x74NCAEnlTIdNzo7nfMDVwZ9ilTlkp• Infant with rare, incurable disease is first to successfully receive personalized gene therapy treatment: https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/infant-rare-incurable-disease-first-successfully-receive-personalized-gene-therapy-treatment• Building a magical AI code editor used by over 1 million developers in four months: The untold story of Windsurf | Varun Mohan (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-untold-story-of-windsurf-varun-mohan• Copilot: https://copilot.microsoft.com/chats/rcxhzvKgZvz8ajUrKdBtX• GitHub Copilot: https://github.com/features/copilot• Defensive Measures: https://learnprompting.org/docs/prompt_hacking/defensive_measures/introduction• Sam Altman on X: https://x.com/sama• Three Laws of Robotics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Laws_of_Robotics• Anthropic's new AI model turns to blackmail when engineers try to take it offline: https://techcrunch.com/2025/05/22/anthropics-new-ai-model-turns-to-blackmail-when-engineers-try-to-take-it-offline/• Palisade Research: https://palisaderesearch.org/• When AI Thinks It Will Lose, It Sometimes Cheats, Study Finds: https://time.com/7259395/ai-chess-cheating-palisade-research/• A.I. Chatbots Defeated Doctors at Diagnosing Illness: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/17/health/chatgpt-ai-doctors-diagnosis.html• 1883 on Paramount+: https://www.paramountplus.com/shows/1883/• Black Mirror on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/70264888• Daylight Computer: https://daylightcomputer.com/• Theodore Roosevelt's quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/622252-i-wish-to-preach-not-the-doctrine-of-ignoble-ease• HackAPrompt 2.0: https://www.hackaprompt.com/—Recommended books:• Ender's Game: https://www.amazon.com/Enders-Ender-Quintet-Orson-Scott/dp/0812550706• The River of Doubt: Theodore Roosevelt's Darkest Journey: https://www.amazon.com/River-Doubt-Theodore-Roosevelts-Darkest/dp/0767913736—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Mike Krieger is the chief product officer of Anthropic and the co-founder of Instagram. After leaving Meta, he co-founded Artifact, an AI-powered news app that I absolutely loved, and joined Anthropic to lead product in 2024.In this episode, you'll learn:• How Anthropic uses AI to write 90-95% of code for some products and the surprising new bottlenecks this creates• Why embedding product managers with AI researchers yields 10x the impact of traditional product development• The three areas where product teams can still add massive value as AI gets smarter• How Anthropic plans to compete with OpenAI long-term• How to use Claude as your product strategy partner (with specific prompting techniques)• Why Mike shut down Artifact despite loving the product, and what founders can learn from it• Where AI startups should build to avoid getting killed by OpenAI, Anthropic, and Google• Why MCP (Model Context Protocol) might reshape how all software works• The counterintuitive product metrics that matter for AI• How to evaluate whether your company is maximizing AI's potential or just scratching the surface—Brought to you by:Productboard—Make products that matterStripe—Helping companies of all sizes grow revenueOneSchema—Import CSV data 10x faster—Where to find Mike Krieger:• X: https://x.com/mikeyk• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikekrieger/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Mike Krieger(04:20) What Mike has changed his mind about regarding AI capabilities(07:38) How to avoid scary AI scenarios(08:55) Skills kids will need in an AI world(11:53) How product development changes when 90% of code is written by AI(17:07) Claude helping with product strategy(21:16) A new way of working(23:55) The future value of product teams in an AI world(27:18) Prompting tricks to get more out of Claude(29:52) The Rick Rubin collaboration on “vibe coding”(32:42) How Mike was recruited to Anthropic(35:55) Why Mike shut down Artifact(42:41) Anthropic vs. OpenAI(47:11) Where AI founders should play to avoid getting squashed(51:58) How companies can best leverage Anthropic's models and APIs(54:29) The role of MCPs (Model Context Protocols)(58:25) Claude's questions for Mike(01:03:15) Claude's heartfelt message to Mike—Referenced:• Anthropic: https://www.anthropic.com/• Claude Opus 4: https://www.anthropic.com/claude/opus• Dario Amodei on X: https://x.com/darioamodei• AI 2027: https://ai-2027.com/• Tobi Lütke's leadership playbook: Playing infinite games, operating from first principles, and maximizing human potential (founder and CEO of Shopify): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/tobi-lutkes-leadership-playbook• Claude Shannon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Shannon• Information theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_theory• TypeScript: https://www.typescriptlang.org/• Python: https://www.python.org/• Rust: https://www.rust-lang.org/• Bending the universe in your favor | Claire Vo (LaunchDarkly, Color, Optimizely, ChatPRD): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/bending-the-universe-in-your-favor• Announcing a brand-new podcast: “How I AI” with Claire Vo: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/announcing-a-brand-new-podcast-how• A conversation with OpenAI's CPO Kevin Weil, Anthropic's CPO Mike Krieger, and Sarah Guo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxkvVZua28k• Jack Clark on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jack-clark-5a320317/• Artifact: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artifact_(app)• Joel Lewenstein on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joel-lewenstein/• Daniela Amodei on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniela-amodei-790bb22a/• Boris Cherny on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bcherny/• Gunnar Gray on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gunnargray/• The Model Context Protocol: https://www.anthropic.com/news/model-context-protocol• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can't stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell• Building Lovable: $10M ARR in 60 days with 15 people | Anton Osika (CEO and co-founder): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika• Inside Bolt: From near-death to ~$40m ARR in 5 months—one of the fastest-growing products in history | Eric Simons (founder and CEO of StackBlitz): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-bolt-eric-simons• Jimmy Kimmel Live: https://www.youtube.com/user/JimmyKimmelLive• ChatGPT: https://chatgpt.com/• Gemini: https://gemini.google.com/app• OpenAI's CPO on how AI changes must-have skills, moats, coding, startup playbooks, more | Kevin Weil (CPO at OpenAI, ex-Instagram, Twitter): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai• Windsurf: https://windsurf.com/• Menlo Ventures: https://menlovc.com/• Harvey: https://www.harvey.ai/• Manus: https://manus.im/• Bench: https://www.bench-ai.com/• Strategy Letter V: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/06/12/strategy-letter-v/• Kevin Scott on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jkevinscott/—Recommended books:• The Goal: A Process of Ongoing Improvement: https://www.amazon.com/Goal-Process-Ongoing-Improvement/dp/0884271951• The Way of the Code: The Timeless Art of Vibe Coding: https://www.thewayofcode.com/• The Hard Thing About Hard Things: Building a Business when There Are No Easy Answers―Straight Talk on the Challenges of Entrepreneurship: https://www.amazon.com/Hard-Thing-About-Things-Building/dp/0062273205—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Aparna Chennapragada is the chief product officer of experiences and devices at Microsoft, where she oversees AI product strategy for their productivity tools and work on agents. Previously, she was the CPO at Robinhood, spent 12 years at Google, and is also on the board of eBay and Capital One.What you'll learn:1. How “prompt sets are the new PRDs” and why prototyping with AI is now essential for effective product development2. The three key characteristics of AI agents: autonomy (delegation of tasks), complexity (handling multi-step challenges), and natural interaction (conversing beyond simple chat)3. Why NLX (natural language experience) is the new UX, requiring deliberate design principles for conversational interfaces4. Why the PM role isn't dying in the AI era—it's evolving to emphasize tastemaking and editing5. How living “one year in the future” can be operationalized with programs like Microsoft's Frontier6. How even traditional enterprises can balance cutting-edge AI adoption with appropriate governance through dual-track approaches7. Insights on leadership differences between Microsoft's Satya Nadella (known for multi-level thinking and early trendspotting) and Google's Sundar Pichai (mastery of complex ecosystems)8. The vision for human and AI collaboration in the workplace, where people and agents achieve outcomes greater than either could alone9. A practical framework for evaluating zero-to-one product opportunities—Brought to you by:Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experimentsPragmatic Institute—Industry‑recognized product, marketing, and AI training and certificationsCoda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace—Where to find Aparna Chennapragada:• X: https://x.com/aparnacd• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aparnacd/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Aparna Chennapragada(04:28) Aparna's stand-up comedy journey(07:29) Transition to Microsoft and enterprise insights(10:00) The Frontier program and AI integration(13:28) Understanding AI agents(17:59) NLX is the new UX(22:28) The future of product development(31:16) Building a custom Chrome extension(35:45) Leadership styles of Satya and Sundar(37:47) Counterintuitive lessons in product building(41:20) Inflection points for successful products(45:16) GitHub Copilot and code generation(48:34) Excel's enduring success(50:27) Pivotal career moments(54:55) The future of human-agent collaboration(56:25) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• Google Lens: https://lens.google/• Saturday Night Live: https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live• Reid Hoffman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/reidhoffman/• Robinhood: https://robinhood.com/• eBay: https://www.ebay.com/• Capital One: https://www.capitalone.com/• Microsoft: https://www.microsoft.com/• Aparna's LinkedIn post about enterprise vs. consumer: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/aparnacd_every-enterprise-user-feature-has-a-shadow-activity-7321176091610542080-8X-E/• The Epic Split: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Epic_Split• AI Frontiers: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/lab/ai-frontiers/• OpenAI's CPO on how AI changes must-have skills, moats, coding, startup playbooks, more | Kevin Weil (CPO at OpenAI, ex-Instagram, Twitter): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai• Deepseek: https://www.deepseek.com/• Satya Nadella on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/satyanadella/• Tobi Lütke's leadership playbook: Playing infinite games, operating from first principles, and maximizing human potential (founder and CEO of Shopify): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/tobi-lutkes-leadership-playbook• Tobi Lütke's post on X about reflexive AI: https://x.com/tobi/status/1909251946235437514• GitHub Copilot: https://github.com/features/copilot• Sundar Pichai on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sundarpichai/• South Park “Underwear Gnomes” episode: https://southpark.cc.com/episodes/13y790/south-park-gnomes-season-2-ep-17• Google Home: https://home.google.com/welcome/• Cursor: https://www.cursor.com/• v0: https://v0.dev/• Bolt: https://bolt.net/• Lovable: https://lovable.dev/• Replit: https://replit.com/• Inside Bolt: From near-death to ~$40m ARR in 5 months—one of the fastest-growing products in history | Eric Simons (founder and CEO of StackBlitz): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-bolt-eric-simons• Building Lovable: $10M ARR in 60 days with 15 people | Anton Osika (CEO and co-founder): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika• Everyone's an engineer now: Inside v0's mission to create a hundred million builders | Guillermo Rauch (founder and CEO of Vercel, creators of v0 and Next.js): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/everyones-an-engineer-now-guillermo-rauch• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can't stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell• Behind the product: Replit | Amjad Masad (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/behind-the-product-replit-amjad-masad• Microsoft Excel World Championship: https://fmworldcup.com/microsoft-excel-world-championship/• Google Now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Now• Hacks on Max: https://www.max.com/shows/hacks/67e940b7-aab2-46ce-a62b-c7308cde9de7• Granola: https://www.granola.ai/• Alan Kay quote: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/alan_kay_100831• Sindhu Vee's website: https://sindhuvee.com/• Nate Bargatze's website: https://natebargatze.com/—Recommended book:• A Brief History of Intelligence: Evolution, AI, and the Five Breakthroughs That Made Our Brains: https://www.amazon.com/Brief-History-Intelligence-Evolution-Breakthroughs/dp/0063286351—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Scott Wu is the co-founder and CEO of Cognition, the company behind Devin—the world's first autonomous AI software engineer. Unlike other AI coding tools, Devin works like an autonomous engineer that you can interact with through Slack, Linear, and GitHub, just like with a remote engineer. With Scott's background in competitive programming and a previous AI-powered startup, Lunchclub, teaching AI to code has become his ultimate passion.What you'll learn:1. How a team of “Devins” are already producing 25% of Cognition's pull requests, and they are on track to hit 50% by year's end2. How each engineer on Cognition's 15-person engineering team works with about five Devins each3. How Devin has evolved from a “high school CS student” to a “junior engineer” over the past year4. Why engineering will shift from “bricklayers” to “architects”5. Why AI tools will lead to more engineering jobs rather than fewer6. How Devin creates its own wiki to understand and document complex codebases7. The eight pivots Cognition went through before landing on their current approach8. The cultural shifts required to successfully adopt AI engineers—Brought to you by:Enterpret—Transform customer feedback into product growthParagon—Ship every SaaS integration your customers wantAttio—The powerful, flexible CRM for fast-growing startups—Where to find Scott Wu:• X: https://x.com/scottwu46• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-wu-8b94ab96/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Scott Wu and Devin(09:13) Scaling and future prospects(10:23) Devin's origin story(17:26) The idea of Devin as a person(22:19) How a team of “Devins” are already producing 25% of Cognition's pull requests(25:17) Important skills in the AI era(30:21) How Cognition's engineering team works with Devin's(34:37) Live demo(42:20) Devin's codebase integration(44:50) Automation with Linear(46:53) What Devin does best(52:56) The future of AI in software engineering(57:13) Moats and stickiness in AI(01:01:57) The tech that enables Devin(01:04:14) AI will be the biggest technology shift of our lives(01:07:25) Adopting Devin in your company(01:15:13) Startup wisdom and hiring practices(01:22:32) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• Devin: https://devin.ai/• GitHub: https://github.com/• Linear: https://linear.app/• Waymo: https://waymo.com/• GitHub Copilot: https://github.com/features/copilot• Cursor: https://www.cursor.com/• Anysphere: https://anysphere.inc/• Bolt: https://bolt.new/• StackBlitz: https://stackblitz.com/• Cognition: https://cognition.ai/• v0: https://v0.dev/• Vercel: https://vercel.com/• Everyone's an engineer now: Inside v0's mission to create a hundred million builders | Guillermo Rauch (founder and CEO of Vercel, creators of v0 and Next.js): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/everyones-an-engineer-now-guillermo-rauch• Inside Bolt: From near-death to ~$40m ARR in 5 months—one of the fastest-growing products in history | Eric Simons (founder and CEO of StackBlitz): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-bolt-eric-simons• Assembly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assembly_language• Pascal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal_(programming_language)• Python: https://www.python.org/• Jevons paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox• Datadog: https://www.datadoghq.com/• Bending the universe in your favor | Claire Vo (LaunchDarkly, Color, Optimizely, ChatPRD): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/bending-the-universe-in-your-favor• OpenAI's CPO on how AI changes must-have skills, moats, coding, startup playbooks, more | Kevin Weil (CPO at OpenAI, ex-Instagram, Twitter): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai• Behind the product: Replit | Amjad Masad (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/behind-the-product-replit-amjad-masad• Windsurf: https://windsurf.com/• COBOL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COBOL• Fortran: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortran• Magic the Gathering: https://magic.wizards.com/en• Aura frames: https://auraframes.com/• AirPods: https://www.apple.com/airpods/• Steven Hao on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/steven-hao-160b9638/• Walden Yan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/waldenyan/—Recommended books:• How to Win Friends & Influence People: https://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/0671027034• The Power Law: Venture Capital and the Making of the New Future: https://www.amazon.com/Power-Law-Venture-Capital-Making/dp/052555999X• The Great Gatsby: https://www.amazon.com/Great-Gatsby-F-Scott-Fitzgerald/dp/0743273567—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Join Nolan Fortman and Logan Kilpatrick for a deep dive into the story of Bolt.new (Stackblitz) with founder and CEO Eric Simons. We talk about Bolt.new as the overnight success 7 years in the making, why vibe coding is here to stay, scaling from $0 to $20M to now $40M ARR, the the future of software creation. Get started vibe coding: https://bolt.new/ Find Eric and Logan on X / Twitter: https://x.com/EricSimons + https://x.com/OfficialLoganK Learn more about Around the Prompt: https://www.aroundtheprompt.com/

Varun Mohan is the co-founder and CEO of Windsurf (formerly Codeium), an AI-powered development environment (IDE) that has been used by over 1 million developers in just four months and has quickly emerged as a leader in transforming how developers build software. Prior to finding success with Windsurf, the company pivoted twice—first from GPU virtualization infrastructure to an IDE plugin, and then to their own standalone IDE.In this conversation, you'll learn:1. Why Windsurf walked away from a profitable GPU infrastructure business and bet the company on helping engineers code2. The surprising UI discovery that tripled adoption rates overnight.3. The secret behind Windsurf's B2B enterprise plan, and why they invested early in an 80-person sales team despite conventional startup wisdom.4. How non-technical staff at Windsurf built their own custom tools instead of purchasing SaaS products, saving them over $500k in software costs5. Why Varun believes 90% of code will be AI-generated, but engineering jobs will actually increase6. How training on millions of incomplete code samples gives Windsurf an edge, and creates a moat long-term7. Why agency is the most undervalued and important skill in the AI era—Brought to you by:• Brex—The banking solution for startups• Productboard—Make products that matter• Coda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace—Where to find Varun Mohan:• X: https://x.com/_mohansolo• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/varunkmohan/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Varun's background(03:57) Building and scaling Windsurf(12:58) Windsurf: The new purpose-built IDE to harness magic(17:11) The future of engineering and AI(21:30) Skills worth investing in(23:07) Hiring philosophy and company culture(35:22) Sales strategy and market position(39:37) JetBrains vs. VS Code: extensibility and enterprise adoption(41:20) Live demo: building an Airbnb for dogs with Windsurf(42:46) Tips for using Windsurf effectively(46:38) AI's role in code modification and review(48:56) Empowering non-developers to build custom software(54:03) Training Windsurf(01:00:43) Windsurf's unique team structure and product strategy(01:06:40) The importance of continuous innovation(01:08:57) Final thoughts and advice for aspiring developers—Referenced:• Windsurf: https://windsurf.com/• VS Code: https://code.visualstudio.com/• JetBrains: https://www.jetbrains.com/• Eclipse: https://eclipseide.org/• Visual Studio: https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/• Vim: https://www.vim.org/• Emacs: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/• Lessons from a two-time unicorn builder, 50-time startup advisor, and 20-time company board member | Uri Levine (co-founder of Waze): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/lessons-from-uri-levine• IntelliJ: https://www.jetbrains.com/idea/• Julia: https://julialang.org/• Parallel computing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_computing• Douglas Chen on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/douglaspchen/• Carlos Delatorre on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cadelatorre/• MongoDB: https://www.mongodb.com/• Cursor: https://www.cursor.com/• GitHub Copilot: https://github.com/features/copilot• Llama: https://www.llama.com/• Mistral: https://mistral.ai/• Building Lovable: $10M ARR in 60 days with 15 people | Anton Osika (CEO and co-founder): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika• Inside Bolt: From near-death to ~$40m ARR in 5 months—one of the fastest-growing products in history | Eric Simons (founder & CEO of StackBlitz): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-bolt-eric-simons• Behind the product: Replit | Amjad Masad (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/behind-the-product-replit-amjad-masad• React: https://react.dev/• Sonnet: https://www.anthropic.com/claude/sonnet• OpenAI: https://openai.com/• FedRamp: https://www.fedramp.gov/• Dario Amodei on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dario-amodei-3934934/• Amdahl's law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdahl%27s_law• How to win in the AI era: Ship a feature every week, embrace technical debt, ruthlessly cut scope, and create magic your competitors can't copy | Gaurav Misra (CEO and co-founder of Captions): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-win-in-the-ai-era-gaurav-misra—Recommended book:• Fall in Love with the Problem, Not the Solution: A Handbook for Entrepreneurs: https://www.amazon.com/Fall-Love-Problem-Solution-Entrepreneurs/dp/1637741987—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Guillermo Rauch is the founder and CEO of Vercel, creators of v0 (one of the most popular AI app building tools), and the mind behind foundational JavaScript frameworks like Next.js and Socket.io. An open source pioneer and legendary engineer, Guillermo has built tools that power some of the internet's most innovative products, including Midjourney, Grok, and Notion. His mission is to democratize product creation, expanding the pool of potential builders from 5 million developers to over 100 million people worldwide. In this episode, you'll learn:1. How AI will radically speed up product development—and the three critical skills PMs and engineers should master now to stay ahead2. Why the future of building apps is shifting toward prompts instead of code, and how that affects traditional product teams3. Specific ways to improve your design “taste,” plus practical tips to consistently create beautiful, user-loved products4. How Guillermo built a powerful app in under two hours for $20 (while flying and using plane Wi-Fi) that would normally take weeks and thousands of dollars in engineering time5. The exact strategies Vercel uses internally to leverage AI tools like v0 and Cursor, enabling their team of 600 to ship faster and better than ever before6. Guillermo's actionable advice on increasing your product quality through rapid iteration, real-world user feedback, and creating intentional “exposure hours” for your team—Brought to you by:• WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs• Vanta — Automate compliance. Simplify security• LinkedIn Ads—Reach professionals and drive results for your business—Where to find Guillermo Rauch:• X: https://x.com/rauchg• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rauchg/• Website: https://rauchg.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Guillermo Rauch(04:43) v0's mission(07:03) The impact and growth of v0(15:54) The future of product development with AI(19:05) Empowering engineers and product builders(24:01) Skills for the future: coding, math, and eloquence(35:05) v0 in action: real-world applications(36:40) Tips for using v0 effectively(45:46) Core skills for building AI apps(49:44) Live demo(59:45) Understanding how AI thinks(01:04:35) AI integration and future prospects(01:07:22) Building taste(01:13:43) Limitations of v0(01:16:54) Improving the design of your product(01:20:09) The secret to product quality(01:22:35) Vercel's AI-driven development(01:25:43) Guillermo's vision for the future—Referenced:• v0: https://v0.dev/• Vercel: https://vercel.com/• GitHub: https://github.com/• Cursor: https://www.cursor.com/• Next.js Framework: https://nextjs.org/• Claude: https://claude.ai/new• Grok: https://x.ai/• Midjourney: https://www.midjourney.com• SocketIO: https://socket.io/• Notion's lost years, its near collapse during Covid, staying small to move fast, the joy and suffering of building horizontal, more | Ivan Zhao (CEO and co-founder): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-notion-ivan-zhao• Notion: https://www.notion.com/• Automattic: https://automattic.com/• Inside Bolt: From near-death to ~$40m ARR in 5 months—one of the fastest-growing products in history | Eric Simons (founder & CEO of StackBlitz): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-bolt-eric-simons• v0 Community: https://v0.dev/chat/community• Figma: https://www.figma.com/• Git Commit: https://www.atlassian.com/git/tutorials/saving-changes/git-commit• What are Artifacts and how do I use them?: https://support.anthropic.com/en/articles/9487310-what-are-artifacts-and-how-do-i-use-them• Design Engineering at Vercel: https://vercel.com/blog/design-engineering-at-vercel• CSS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSS• Tailwind: https://tailwindcss.com/• Wordcel / Shape Rotator / Mathcel: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/wordcel-shape-rotator-mathcel• Steve Jobs's Ultimate Lesson for Companies: https://hbr.org/2011/08/steve-jobss-ultimate-lesson-fo• Bloom Hackathon: https://bloom.build/• Expenses Should Do Themselves | Saquon Barkley x Ramp (Super Bowl Ad): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1Tgsy7D0Jg• Velocity over everything: How Ramp became the fastest-growing SaaS startup of all time | Geoff Charles (VP of Product): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/velocity-over-everything-how-ramp• JavaScript: https://www.javascript.com/• React: https://react.dev/• Mapbox: https://www.mapbox.com/• Leaflet: https://leafletjs.com/• Escape hatches: https://react.dev/learn/escape-hatches• Supreme: https://supreme.com/• Shadcn: https://ui.shadcn.com/• Charles Schwab: https://www.schwab.com/• Fortune: https://fortune.com/• Semafor: https://www.semafor.com/• AI SDK: https://sdk.vercel.ai/• DeepSeek: https://www.deepseek.com/• Stripe: https://stripe.com/• Vercel templates: https://vercel.com/templates• GC AI: https://getgc.ai/• OpenEvidence: https://www.openevidence.com/• Paris Fashion Week: https://www.fhcm.paris/en/paris-fashion-week• Guillermo's post on X about making great products: https://x.com/rauchg/status/1887314115066274254• Everybody Can Cook billboard: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/evilrabbit_activity-7242975574242037760-uRW9/• Ratatouille: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0382932/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Kevin Weil is the chief product officer at OpenAI, where he oversees the development of ChatGPT, enterprise products, and the OpenAI API. Prior to OpenAI, Kevin was head of product at Twitter, Instagram, and Planet, and was instrumental in the development of the Libra (later Novi) cryptocurrency project at Facebook.In this episode, you'll learn:1. How OpenAI structures its product teams and maintains agility while developing cutting-edge AI2. The power of model ensembles—using multiple specialized models together like a company of humans with different skills3. Why writing effective evals (AI evaluation tests) is becoming a critical skill for product managers4. The surprisingly enduring value of chat as an interface for AI, despite predictions of its obsolescence5. How “vibe coding” is changing how companies operate6. What OpenAI looks for when hiring product managers (hint: high agency and comfort with ambiguity)7. “Model maximalism” and why today's AI is the worst you'll ever use again8. Practical prompting techniques that improve AI interactions, including example-based prompting—Brought to you by:• Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments• Persona—A global leader in digital identity verification• OneSchema—Import CSV data 10x faster—Where to find Kevin Weil:• X: https://x.com/kevinweil• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinweil/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Kevin's background(04:06) OpenAI's new image model(06:52) The role of chief product officer at OpenAI(10:18) His recruitment story and joining OpenAI(17:20) The importance of evals in AI(24:59) Shipping quickly and consistently(28:34) Product reviews and iterative deployment(39:35) Chat as an interface for AI(43:59) Collaboration between researchers and product teams(46:41) Hiring product managers at OpenAI(48:45) Embracing ambiguity in product management(51:41) The role of AI in product teams(53:21) Vibe coding and AI prototyping(55:55) The future of product teams and fine-tuned models(01:04:36) AI in education(01:06:42) Optimism and concerns about AI's future(01:16:37) Reflections on the Libra project(01:20:37) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• OpenAI: https://openai.com/• The AI-Generated Studio Ghibli Trend, Explained: https://www.forbes.com/sites/danidiplacido/2025/03/27/the-ai-generated-studio-ghibli-trend-explained/• Introducing 4o Image Generation: https://openai.com/index/introducing-4o-image-generation/• Waymo: https://waymo.com/• X: https://x.com• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/• Planet: https://www.planet.com/• Sam Altman on X: https://x.com/sama• A conversation with OpenAI's CPO Kevin Weil, Anthropic's CPO Mike Krieger, and Sarah Guo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxkvVZua28k• OpenAI evals: https://github.com/openai/evals• Deep Research: https://openai.com/index/introducing-deep-research/• Ev Williams on X: https://x.com/ev• OpenAI API: https://platform.openai.com/docs/overview• Dwight Eisenhower quote: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/dwight_d_eisenhower_164720• Inside Bolt: From near-death to ~$40m ARR in 5 months—one of the fastest-growing products in history | Eric Simons (founder & CEO of StackBlitz): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-bolt-eric-simons• StackBlitz: https://stackblitz.com/• Claude 3.5 Sonnet: https://www.anthropic.com/news/claude-3-5-sonnet• Anthropic: https://www.anthropic.com/• Four-minute mile: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-minute_mile• Chad: https://chatgpt.com/g/g-3F100ZiIe-chad-open-a-i• Dario Amodei on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dario-amodei-3934934/• Figma: https://www.figma.com/• Julia Villagra on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliavillagra/• Andrej Karpathy on X: https://x.com/karpathy• Silicon Valley CEO says ‘vibe coding' lets 10 engineers do the work of 100—here's how to use it: https://fortune.com/2025/03/26/silicon-valley-ceo-says-vibe-coding-lets-10-engineers-do-the-work-of-100-heres-how-to-use-it/• Cursor: https://www.cursor.com/• Windsurf: https://codeium.com/windsurf• GitHub Copilot: https://github.com/features/copilot• Patrick Srail on X: https://x.com/patricksrail• Khan Academy: https://www.khanacademy.org/• CK-12 Education: https://www.ck12.org/• Sora: https://openai.com/sora/• Sam Altman's post on X about creative writing: https://x.com/sama/status/1899535387435086115• Diem (formerly known as Libra): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diem_(digital_currency)• Novi: https://about.fb.com/news/2020/05/welcome-to-novi/• David Marcus on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dmarcus/• Peter Zeihan on X: https://x.com/PeterZeihan• The Wheel of Time on Prime Video: https://www.amazon.com/Wheel-Time-Season-1/dp/B09F59CZ7R• Top Gun: Maverick on Prime Video: https://www.amazon.com/Top-Gun-Maverick-Joseph-Kosinski/dp/B0DM2LYL8G• Thinking like a gardener not a builder, organizing teams like slime mold, the adjacent possible, and other unconventional product advice | Alex Komoroske (Stripe, Google): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/unconventional-product-advice-alex-komoroske• MySQL: https://www.mysql.com/—Recommended books:• Co-Intelligence: Living and Working with AI: https://www.amazon.com/Co-Intelligence-Living-Working-Ethan-Mollick/dp/059371671X• The Accidental Superpower: Ten Years On: https://www.amazon.com/Accidental-Superpower-Ten-Years/dp/1538767341• Cable Cowboy: https://www.amazon.com/Cable-Cowboy-Malone-Modern-Business/dp/047170637X—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Eric Simons is the founder and CEO of StackBlitz, the company behind Bolt—the #1 web-based AI coding agent and one of the fastest-growing products in history. After nearly shutting down, StackBlitz launched Bolt on Twitter and exploded from zero to $40 million ARR and 1 million monthly active users in about five months.What you'll learn:1. How Bolt reached nearly $40M ARR and 3 million registered users in just five months with a team of only 15 to 20 people2. How Bolt leverages WebContainer technology—a browser-based operating system developed over seven years—to create a dramatically faster, more reliable AI coding experience than competitors3. Why Anthropic's 3.5 Sonnet model was the critical breakthrough that made AI-generated code production-ready and unlocked the entire text-to-app market4. Why PMs may be better positioned than engineers in the AI era5. How AI will dramatically reshape company org charts6. Eric's wild founder story (including squatting at AOL's HQ) and how scrappiness fueled his innovation—Brought to you by:• Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments• Fundrise Flagship Fund—Invest in $1.1 billion of real estate• OneSchema—Import CSV data 10x faster—Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-bolt-eric-simons—Where to find Eric Simons:• X: https://x.com/ericsimons40• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-simons-a464a664/• Email: Eric@stackblitz.com—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Eric Simons and StackBlitz(04:46) Unprecedented growth and user adoption(10:40) Demo: Building a Spotify clone with Bolt(15:28) Expanding to native mobile apps with Expo(19:09) The journey and technology behind WebContainer(25:03) Lessons learned and future outlook(29:15) Post-launch analysis(34:15) Growing fast with a small team(41:00) Prioritization at Bolt(45:51) Tooling and PRD's(48:42) Integration and use cases of Bolt(52:24) Limitations of Bolt(54:24) The role of PMs and developers in the AI era(59:56) Skills for the future(01:14:18) Upcoming features of Bolt(01:20:17) How to get the most out of Bolt(01:23:00) Eric's journey and final thoughts—Referenced:• Bolt: https://bolt.new/• Cursor: https://www.cursor.com/• Wix: https://www.wix.com/• Squarespace: https://www.squarespace.com/• Dylan Field on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dylanfield/• Evan Wallace's website: https://madebyevan.com/• WebGL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebGL• WebAssembly: https://webassembly.org/• CloudNine: https://cloudnine.com/• Canva: https://www.canva.com/• StackBlitz: https://stackblitz.com/• Lessons from 1,000+ YC startups: Resilience, tar pit ideas, pivoting, more | Dalton Caldwell (Y Combinator, Managing Director): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/lessons-from-1000-yc-startups• Y Combinator: https://www.ycombinator.com/• Anthropic: https://www.anthropic.com/• Dario Amodei on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dario-amodei-3934934/• Linear: https://linear.app/• Notion: https://www.notion.com/• Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/• Atlassian: https://www.atlassian.com/• Photoshop: https://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/• Figma: https://www.figma.com/• Greenfield projects: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenfield_project• Gartner: https://www.gartner.com/• OpenAI researcher on why soft skills are the future of work | Karina Nguyen (Research at OpenAI, ex-Anthropic): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/why-soft-skills-are-the-future-of-work-karina-nguyen• Albert Pai on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/albertpai/• Bolt's post on X about “Bolt Builders”: https://x.com/boltdotnew/status/1887546089294995943• Sonnet: https://www.anthropic.com/claude/sonnet• ChatGPT: https://chatgpt.com/• Breaking the Rules: The Young Entrepreneur Who Squatted at AOL: https://www.inc.com/john-mcdermott/eric-simons-interview-young-entrepreneur-squatted-at-aol.html• Imagine K12: http://www.imaginek12.com/• Geoff Ralston on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/geoffralston/• AOL: https://www.aol.com/• Bolt on X: https://x.com/boltdotnew—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Eric Simons is the Co-founder and CEO of StackBlitz, best known for its breakout product Bolt, letting anyone build full stack apps from text, in the browser.Bolt launched in October of 2024, quickly growing from zero to a $20 million revenue run rate in two months, making it one of the fastest growing products ever. But Eric will be the first to tell you it wasn't an overnight success - the product didn't even work the first time they tried building it.We go behind the scenes of the seven year journey building the tech that eventually led to Bolt, how to avoid distractions, being capital efficient, living in a frat house for $100/month, and squatting in AOL's headquarters for $1/day when he was 19.Eric also takes us inside the weeks after Bolt's viral launch, figuring out a new business model on the fly, his strategy for fundraising and PR, why you should open source your code, Bolt's playbook for building a community around the product that enabled their viral launch, and how AI is changing software forever.Timestamps:(0:00) Intro(2:24) Building full stack apps from text, in your browser(4:19) Running an operating system in the browser(11:48) Why Bolt failed the first time, almost shutting down the company last summer(20:18) How Bolt went viral from one tweet(28:33) Differences between ChatGPT, Claude, Cursor(39:38) Why AI code gen changes the software world order(42:01) What happened inside Bolt going from zero to $20m ARR in two months(47:32) Not sharing fundraises publicly + his PR strategy(58:57) Why the team never gave up for seven years(1:01:07) Living in a frat house for $100/month(1:04:07) How to be capital efficient(1:09:00) Living on $1/day in AOL's HQ when he was 19(1:14:01) Inside Bolt's Series B(1:21:03) Bolt's hiring and product roadmap(1:32:58) Creating a new inference-based AI business model(1:38:07) Eric's playbook for building a community of users(1:44:05) Why you should open source your codeReferencedTry Bolt: https://bolt.new/Bolt on X: https://x.com/boltdotnewCheck out Webcontainers: https://webcontainers.io/$0 to $4m ARR case study with Anthropic: https://www.anthropic.com/customers/stackblitzBolt's open source code: https://www.bolt.diy/Bolt / StackBlitz is hiring! https://stackblitz.com/careersEric's favorite cafe, The Lighthouse SF: https://thelighthousessf.com/Lady Gaga's “one person” montage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRxsX_30tjsLiving inside AOL HQ at 19 years old: https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/meet-the-tireless-entrepreneur-who-squatted-at-aol/Bloomberg coverage of StackBlitz Series B: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-01-21/ai-speech-to-code-startup-stackblitz-is-in-talks-for-a-700-million-valuation?embedded-checkout=trueJoel Spolsky's blog: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/Follow EricTwitter: https://x.com/ericsimons40LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-simons-a464a664/Follow TurnerTwitter: https://twitter.com/TurnerNovakLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/turnernovakSubscribe to my newsletter to get every episode + the transcript in your inbox every week: https://www.thespl.it/

In this episode of The Cognitive Revolution, Eric Simons, founder and CEO of StackBlitz, discusses the transformative impact of AI on the software development industry. Eric delves into the vision and technologies behind Bolt (bolt.new), StackBlitz's groundbreaking AI-driven platform, which enables users to build full-stack applications with ease. He talks about the future of AI in coding, the balance between human oversight and AI autonomy, and the infrastructure that powers Bolt's capabilities. With the platform growing rapidly and generating millions in ARR, StackBlitz is pushing the boundaries of what AI can achieve in web development. Checkout bolt here: http://bolt.new SPONSORS: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI): Oracle's next-generation cloud platform delivers blazing-fast AI and ML performance with 50% less for compute and 80% less for outbound networking compared to other cloud providers. OCI powers industry leaders like Vodafone and Thomson Reuters with secure infrastructure and application development capabilities. New U.S. customers can get their cloud bill cut in half by switching to OCI before March 31, 2024 at https://oracle.com/cognitive NetSuite: Over 41,000 businesses trust NetSuite by Oracle, the #1 cloud ERP, to future-proof their operations. With a unified platform for accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR, NetSuite provides real-time insights and forecasting to help you make quick, informed decisions. Whether you're earning millions or hundreds of millions, NetSuite empowers you to tackle challenges and seize opportunities. Download the free CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at https://netsuite.com/cognitive Shopify: Shopify is revolutionizing online selling with its market-leading checkout system and robust API ecosystem. Its exclusive library of cutting-edge AI apps empowers e-commerce businesses to thrive in a competitive market. Cognitive Revolution listeners can try Shopify for just $1 per month at https://shopify.com/cognitive CHAPTERS: (00:00) Teaser (00:42) About the Episode (03:33) Introduction to Eric Simons and StackBlitz (04:04) Eric's AI Worldview (07:56) The Future of Software Development (12:16) Target Customers and Use Cases (Part 1) (15:41) Sponsors: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) | NetSuite (18:21) Target Customers and Use Cases (Part 2) (18:40) Challenges and Solutions in AI-Driven Development (25:57) Success Metrics and Technological Innovations (Part 1) (32:15) Sponsors: Shopify (33:35) Success Metrics and Technological Innovations (Part 2) (39:20) Demo of Bolt's Capabilities (49:02) AI Agent Integration (49:13) Cost-Effective Development (49:30) Non-Technical Founders (50:02) Pricing Model Insights (53:39) Open Source and Local Deployment (57:06) In-Browser Development (01:09:16) Future of AI in Development (01:20:17) Balancing Present and Future (01:22:34) Conclusion and Hiring (01:24:06) Outro SOCIAL LINKS: Website: https://www.cognitiverevolution.ai Twitter (Podcast): https://x.com/cogrev_podcast Twitter (Nathan): https://x.com/labenz LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nathanlabenz/ Youtube: https://youtube.com/@CognitiveRevolutionPodcast PRODUCED BY: http://aipodcast.ing

Happy holidays! We'll be sharing snippets from Latent Space LIVE! through the break bringing you the best of 2024! We want to express our deepest appreciation to event sponsors AWS, Daylight Computer, Thoth.ai, StrongCompute, Notable Capital, and most of all all our LS supporters who helped fund the gorgeous venue and A/V production!For NeurIPS last year we did our standard conference podcast coverage interviewing selected papers (that we have now also done for ICLR and ICML), however we felt that we could be doing more to help AI Engineers 1) get more industry-relevant content, and 2) recap 2024 year in review from experts. As a result, we organized the first Latent Space LIVE!, our first in person miniconference, at NeurIPS 2024 in Vancouver.Our next keynote covers The State of LLM Agents, with the triumphant return of Professor Graham Neubig's return to the pod (his ICLR episode here!). OpenDevin is now a startup known as AllHands! The renamed OpenHands has done extremely well this year, as they end the year sitting comfortably at number 1 on the hardest SWE-Bench Full leaderboard at 29%, though on the smaller SWE-Bench Verified, they are at 53%, behind Amazon Q, devlo, and OpenAI's self reported o3 results at 71.7%.Many are saying that 2025 is going to be the year of agents, with OpenAI, DeepMind and Anthropic setting their sights on consumer and coding agents, vision based computer-using agents and multi agent systems. There has been so much progress on the practical reliability and applications of agents in all domains, from the huge launch of Cognition AI's Devin this year, to the sleeper hit of Cursor Composer and Codeium's Windsurf Cascade in the IDE arena, to the explosive revenue growth of Stackblitz's Bolt, Lovable, and Vercel's v0, and the unicorn rounds and high profile movements of customer support agents like Sierra (now worth $4 billion) and search agents like Perplexity (now worth $9 billion). We wanted to take a little step back to understand the most notable papers of the year in Agents, and Graham indulged with his list of 8 perennial problems in building agents in 2024.Must-Read Papers for the 8 Problems of Agents* The agent-computer interface: CodeAct: Executable Code Actions Elicit Better LLM Agents. Minimial viable tools: Execution Sandbox, File Editor, Web Browsing* The human-agent interface: Chat UI, GitHub Plugin, Remote runtime, …?* Choosing an LLM: See Evaluation of LLMs as Coding Agents on SWE-Bench at 30x - must understand instructions, tools, code, environment, error recovery* Planning: Single Agent Systems vs Multi Agent (CoAct: A Global-Local Hierarchy for Autonomous Agent Collaboration) - Explicit vs Implicit, Curated vs Generated* Reusable common workflows: SteP: Stacked LLM Policies for Web Actions and Agent Workflow Memory - Manual prompting vs Learning from Experience* Exploration: Agentless: Demystifying LLM-based Software Engineering Agents and BAGEL: Bootstrapping Agents by Guiding Exploration with Language* Search: Tree Search for Language Model Agents - explore paths and rewind* Evaluation: Fast Sanity Checks (miniWoB and Aider) and Highly Realistic (WebArena, SWE-Bench) and SWE-Gym: An Open Environment for Training Software Engineering Agents & VerifiersFull Talk on YouTubePlease like and subscribe!Timestamps* 00:00 Welcome to Latent Space Live at NeurIPS 2024* 00:29 State of LLM Agents in 2024* 02:20 Professor Graham Newbig's Insights on Agents* 03:57 Live Demo: Coding Agents in Action* 08:20 Designing Effective Agents* 14:13 Choosing the Right Language Model for Agents* 16:24 Planning and Workflow for Agents* 22:21 Evaluation and Future Predictions for Agents* 25:31 Future of Agent Development* 25:56 Human-Agent Interaction Challenges* 26:48 Expanding Agent Use Beyond Programming* 27:25 Redesigning Systems for Agent Efficiency* 28:03 Accelerating Progress with Agent Technology* 28:28 Call to Action for Open Source Contributions* 30:36 Q&A: Agent Performance and Benchmarks* 33:23 Q&A: Web Agents and Interaction Methods* 37:16 Q&A: Agent Architectures and Improvements* 43:09 Q&A: Self-Improving Agents and Authentication* 47:31 Live Demonstration and Closing RemarksTranscript[00:00:29] State of LLM Agents in 2024[00:00:29] Speaker 9: Our next keynote covers the state of LLM agents. With the triumphant return of Professor Graham Newbig of CMU and OpenDevon, now a startup known as AllHands. The renamed OpenHands has done extremely well this year, as they end the year sitting comfortably at number one on the hardest SWE Benchful leaderboard at 29%.[00:00:53] Speaker 9: Though, on the smaller SWE bench verified, they are at 53 percent behind Amazon Q [00:01:00] Devlo and OpenAI's self reported O3 results at 71. 7%. Many are saying that 2025 is going to be the year of agents, with OpenAI, DeepMind, and Anthropic setting their sights on consumer and coding agents. Vision based computer using agents and multi agent systems.[00:01:22] Speaker 9: There has been so much progress on the practical reliability and applications of agents in all domains, from the huge launch of Cognition AI's Devon this year, to the sleeper hit of Cursor Composer and recent guest Codium's Windsurf Cascade in the IDE arena. To the explosive revenue growth of recent guests StackBlitz's Bolt, Lovable, and Vercel's vZero.[00:01:44] Speaker 9: And the unicorn rounds and high profile movements of customer support agents like Sierra, now worth 4 billion, and search agents like Perplexity, now worth 9 billion. We wanted to take a little step back to understand the most notable papers of the year in [00:02:00] agents, and Graham indulged with his list of eight perennial problems in building agents.[00:02:06] Speaker 9: As always, don't forget to check our show notes for all the selected best papers of 2024, and for the YouTube link to their talk. Graham's slides were especially popular online, and we are honoured to have him. Watch out and take care![00:02:20] Professor Graham Newbig's Insights on Agents[00:02:20] Speaker: Okay hi everyone. So I was given the task of talking about agents in 2024, and this is An impossible task because there are so many agents, so many agents in 2024. So this is going to be strongly covered by like my personal experience and what I think is interesting and important, but I think it's an important topic.[00:02:41] Speaker: So let's go ahead. So the first thing I'd like to think about is let's say I gave you you know, a highly competent human, some tools. Let's say I gave you a web browser and a terminal or a file system. And the ability to [00:03:00] edit text or code. What could you do with that? Everything. Yeah.[00:03:07] Speaker: Probably a lot of things. This is like 99 percent of my, you know, daily daily life, I guess. When I'm, when I'm working. So, I think this is a pretty powerful tool set, and I am trying to do, and what I think some other people are trying to do, is come up with agents that are able to, you know, manipulate these things.[00:03:26] Speaker: Web browsing, coding, running code in successful ways. So there was a little bit about my profile. I'm a professor at CMU, chief scientist at All Hands AI, building open source coding agents. I'm maintainer of OpenHands, which is an open source coding agent framework. And I'm also a software developer and I, I like doing lots of coding and, and, you know, shipping new features and stuff like this.[00:03:51] Speaker: So building agents that help me to do this, you know, is kind of an interesting thing, very close to me.[00:03:57] Live Demo: Coding Agents in Action[00:03:57] Speaker: So the first thing I'd like to do is I'd like to try [00:04:00] some things that I haven't actually tried before. If anybody has, you know, tried to give a live demo, you know, this is, you know very, very scary whenever you do it and it might not work.[00:04:09] Speaker: So it might not work this time either. But I want to show you like three things that I typically do with coding agents in my everyday work. I use coding agents maybe five to 10 times a day to help me solve my own problems. And so this is a first one. This is a data science task. Which says I want to create scatter plots that show the increase of the SWE bench score over time.[00:04:34] Speaker: And so I, I wrote a kind of concrete prompt about this. Agents work better with like somewhat concrete prompts. And I'm gonna throw this into open hands and let it work. And I'll, I'll go back to that in a second. Another thing that I do is I create new software. And I, I've been using a [00:05:00] service a particular service.[00:05:01] Speaker: I won't name it for sending emails and I'm not very happy with it. So I want to switch over to this new service called resend. com, which makes it easier to send emails. And so I'm going to ask it to read the docs for the resend. com API and come up with a script that allows me to send emails. The input to the script should be a CSV file and the subject and body should be provided in Jinja2 templates.[00:05:24] Speaker: So I'll start another agent and and try to get it to do that for me.[00:05:35] Speaker: And let's go with the last one. The last one I do is. This is improving existing software and in order, you know, once you write software, you usually don't throw it away. You go in and, like, actually improve it iteratively. This software that I have is something I created without writing any code.[00:05:52] Speaker: It's basically software to monitor how much our our agents are contributing to the OpenHance repository. [00:06:00] And on the, let me make that a little bit bigger, on the left side, I have the number of issues where it like sent a pull request. I have the number of issues where it like sent a pull request, whether it was merged in purple, closed in red, or is still open in green. And so these are like, you know, it's helping us monitor, but one thing it doesn't tell me is the total number. And I kind of want that feature added to this software.[00:06:33] Speaker: So I'm going to try to add that too. So. I'll take this, I'll take this prompt,[00:06:46] Speaker: and here I want to open up specifically that GitHub repo. So I'll open up that repo and paste in the prompt asking it. I asked it to make a pie chart for each of these and give me the total over the entire time period that I'm [00:07:00] monitoring. So we'll do that. And so now I have let's see, I have some agents.[00:07:05] Speaker: Oh, this one already finished. Let's see. So this one already finished. You can see it finished analyzing the Swebench repository. It wrote a demonstration of, yeah, I'm trying to do that now, actually.[00:07:30] Speaker: It wrote a demonstration of how much each of the systems have improved over time. And I asked it to label the top three for each of the data sets. And so it labeled OpenHands as being the best one for SWE Bench Normal. For SWE Bench Verified, it has like the Amazon QAgent and OpenHands. For the SWE Bench Lite, it has three here over three over here.[00:07:53] Speaker: So you can see like. That's pretty useful, right? If you're a researcher, you do data analysis all the time. I did it while I was talking to all [00:08:00] of you and making a presentation. So that's, that's pretty nice. I, I doubt the other two are finished yet. That would be impressive if the, yeah. So I think they're still working.[00:08:09] Speaker: So maybe we'll get back to them at the end of the presentation. But so these are the kinds of the, these are the kinds of things that I do every day with coding agents now. And it's or software development agents. It's pretty impressive.[00:08:20] Designing Effective Agents[00:08:20] Speaker: The next thing I'd like to talk about a little bit is things I worry about when designing agents.[00:08:24] Speaker: So we're designing agents to, you know, do a very difficult task of like navigating websites writing code, other things like this. And within 2024, there's been like a huge improvement in the methodology that we use to do this. But there's a bunch of things we think about. There's a bunch of interesting papers, and I'd like to introduce a few of them.[00:08:46] Speaker: So the first thing I worry about is the agent computer interface. Like, how do we get an agent to interact with computers? And, How do we provide agents with the tools to do the job? And [00:09:00] within OpenHands we are doing the thing on the right, but there's also a lot of agents that do the thing on the left.[00:09:05] Speaker: So the thing on the left is you give like agents kind of granular tools. You give them tools like or let's say your instruction is I want to determine the most cost effective country to purchase the smartphone model, Kodak one the countries to consider are the USA, Japan, Germany, and India. And you have a bunch of available APIs.[00:09:26] Speaker: And. So what you do for some agents is you provide them all of these tools APIs as tools that they can call. And so in this particular case in order to solve this problem, you'd have to make about like 30 tool calls, right? You'd have to call lookup rates for Germany, you'd have to look it up for the US, Japan, and India.[00:09:44] Speaker: That's four tool goals. And then you go through and do all of these things separately. And the method that we adopt in OpenHands instead is we provide these tools, but we provide them by just giving a coding agent, the ability to call [00:10:00] arbitrary Python code. And. In the arbitrary Python code, it can call these tools.[00:10:05] Speaker: We expose these tools as APIs that the model can call. And what that allows us to do is instead of writing 20 tool calls, making 20 LLM calls, you write a program that runs all of these all at once, and it gets the result. And of course it can execute that program. It can, you know, make a mistake. It can get errors back and fix things.[00:10:23] Speaker: But that makes our job a lot easier. And this has been really like instrumental to our success, I think. Another part of this is what tools does the agent need? And I, I think this depends on your use case, we're kind of extreme and we're only giving the agent five tools or maybe six tools.[00:10:40] Speaker: And what, what are they? The first one is program execution. So it can execute bash programs, and it can execute Jupyter notebooks. It can execute cells in Jupyter notebooks. So that, those are two tools. Another one is a file editing tool. And the file editing tool allows you to browse parts of files.[00:11:00][00:11:00] Speaker: And kind of read them, overwrite them, other stuff like this. And then we have another global search and replace tool. So it's actually two tools for file editing. And then a final one is web browsing, web browsing. I'm kind of cheating when I call it only one tool. You actually have like scroll and text input and click and other stuff like that.[00:11:18] Speaker: But these are basically the only things we allow the agent to do. What, then the question is, like, what if we wanted to allow it to do something else? And the answer is, well, you know, human programmers already have a bunch of things that they use. They have the requests PyPy library, they have the PDF to text PyPy library, they have, like, all these other libraries in the Python ecosystem that they could use.[00:11:41] Speaker: And so if we provide a coding agent with all these libraries, it can do things like data visualization and other stuff that I just showed you. So it can also get clone repositories and, and other things like this. The agents are super good at using the GitHub API also. So they can do, you know, things on GitHub, like finding all of the, you know, [00:12:00] comments on your issues or checking GitHub actions and stuff.[00:12:02] Speaker: The second thing I think about is the human agent interface. So this is like how do we get humans to interact with agents? Bye. I already showed you one variety of our human agent interface. It's basically a chat window where you can browse through the agent's results and things like this. This is very, very difficult.[00:12:18] Speaker: I, I don't think anybody has a good answer to this, and I don't think we have a good answer to this, but the, the guiding principles that I'm trying to follow are we want to present enough info to the user. So we want to present them with, you know, what the agent is doing in the form of a kind of.[00:12:36] Speaker: English descriptions. So you can see here you can see here every time it takes an action, it says like, I will help you create a script for sending emails. When it runs a bash command. Sorry, that's a little small. When it runs a bash command, it will say ran a bash command. It won't actually show you the whole bash command or the whole Jupyter notebook because it can be really large, but you can open it up and see if you [00:13:00] want to, by clicking on this.[00:13:01] Speaker: So like if you want to explore more, you can click over to the Jupyter notebook and see what's displayed in the Jupyter notebook. And you get like lots and lots of information. So that's one thing.[00:13:16] Speaker: Another thing is go where the user is. So like if the user's already interacting in a particular setting then I'd like to, you know, integrate into that setting, but only to a point. So at OpenHands, we have a chat UI for interaction. We have a GitHub plugin for tagging and resolving issues. So basically what you do is you Do at open hands agent and the open hands agent will like see that comment and be able to go in and fix things.[00:13:42] Speaker: So if you say at open hands agent tests are failing on this PR, please fix the tests. It will go in and fix the test for you and stuff like this. Another thing we have is a remote runtime for launching headless jobs. So if you want to launch like a fleet of agents to solve, you know five different problems at once, you can also do [00:14:00] that through an API.[00:14:00] Speaker: So we have we have these interfaces and this probably depends on the use case. So like, depending if you're a coding agent, you want to do things one way. If you're a like insurance auditing agent, you'll want to do things other ways, obviously.[00:14:13] Choosing the Right Language Model for Agents[00:14:13] Speaker: Another thing I think about a lot is choosing a language model.[00:14:16] Speaker: And for agentic LMs we have to have a bunch of things work really well. The first thing is really, really good instruction following ability. And if you have really good instruction following ability, it opens up like a ton of possible applications for you. Tool use and coding ability. So if you provide tools, it needs to be able to use them well.[00:14:38] Speaker: Environment understanding. So it needs, like, if you're building a web agent, it needs to be able to understand web pages either through vision or through text. And error awareness and recovery ability. So, if it makes a mistake, it needs to be able to, you know, figure out why it made a mistake, come up with alternative strategies, and other things like this.[00:14:58] Speaker: [00:15:00] Under the hood, in all of the demos that I did now Cloud, we're using Cloud. Cloud has all of these abilities very good, not perfect, but very good. Most others don't have these abilities quite as much. So like GPT 4. 0 doesn't have very good error recovery ability. And so because of this, it will go into loops and do the same thing over and over and over again.[00:15:22] Speaker: Whereas Claude does not do this. Claude, if you, if you use the agents enough, you get used to their kind of like personality. And Claude says, Hmm, let me try a different approach a lot. So, you know, obviously it's been trained in some way to, you know, elicit this ability. We did an evaluation. This is old.[00:15:40] Speaker: And we need to update this basically, but we evaluated CLOD, mini LLAMA 405B, DeepSeq 2. 5 on being a good code agent within our framework. And CLOD was kind of head and shoulders above the rest. GPT 40 was kind of okay. The best open source model was LLAMA [00:16:00] 3. 1 405B. This needs to be updated because this is like a few months old by now and, you know, things are moving really, really fast.[00:16:05] Speaker: But I still am under the impression that Claude is the best. The other closed models are, you know, not quite as good. And then the open models are a little bit behind that. Grok, I, we haven't tried Grok at all, actually. So, it's a good question. If you want to try it I'd be happy to help.[00:16:24] Speaker: Cool.[00:16:24] Planning and Workflow for Agents[00:16:24] Speaker: Another thing is planning. And so there's a few considerations for planning. The first one is whether you have a curated plan or you have it generated on the fly. And so for solving GitHub issues, you can kind of have an overall plan. Like the plan is first reproduce. If there's an issue, first write tests to reproduce the issue or to demonstrate the issue.[00:16:50] Speaker: After that, run the tests and make sure they fail. Then go in and fix the tests. Run the tests again to make sure they pass and then you're done. So that's like a pretty good workflow [00:17:00] for like solving coding issues. And you could curate that ahead of time. Another option is to let the language model basically generate its own plan.[00:17:10] Speaker: And both of these are perfectly valid. Another one is explicit structure versus implicit structure. So let's say you generate a plan. If you have explicit structure, you could like write a multi agent system, and the multi agent system would have your reproducer agent, and then it would have your your bug your test writer agent, and your bug fixer agent, and lots of different agents, and you would explicitly write this all out in code, and then then use it that way.[00:17:38] Speaker: On the other hand, you could just provide a prompt that says, please do all of these things in order. So in OpenHands, we do very light planning. We have a single prompt. We don't have any multi agent systems. But we do provide, like, instructions about, like, what to do first, what to do next, and other things like this.[00:17:56] Speaker: I'm not against doing it the other way. But I laid [00:18:00] out some kind of justification for this in this blog called Don't Sleep on Single Agent Systems. And the basic idea behind this is if you have a really, really good instruction following agent it will follow the instructions as long as things are working according to your plan.[00:18:14] Speaker: But let's say you need to deviate from your plan, you still have the flexibility to do this. And if you do explicit structure through a multi agent system, it becomes a lot harder to do that. Like, you get stuck when things deviate from your plan. There's also some other examples, and I wanted to introduce a few papers.[00:18:30] Speaker: So one paper I liked recently is this paper called CoAct where you generate plans and then go in and fix them. And so the basic idea is like, if you need to deviate from your plan, you can You know, figure out that your plan was not working and go back and deviate from it.[00:18:49] Speaker: Another thing I think about a lot is specifying common workflows. So we're trying to tackle a software development and I already showed like three use cases where we do [00:19:00] software development and when we. We do software development, we do a ton of different things, but we do them over and over and over again.[00:19:08] Speaker: So just to give an example we fix GitHub actions when GitHub actions are failing. And we do that over and over and over again. That's not the number one thing that software engineers do, but it's a, you know, high up on the list. So how can we get a list of all of, like, the workflows that people are working on?[00:19:26] Speaker: And there's a few research works that people have done in this direction. One example is manual prompting. So there's this nice paper called STEP that got state of the art on the WebArena Web Navigation Benchmark where they came up with a bunch of manual workflows for solving different web navigation tasks.[00:19:43] Speaker: And we also have a paper recently called Agent Workflow Memory where the basic idea behind this is we want to create self improving agents that learn from their past successes. And the way it works is is we have a memory that has an example of lots of the previous [00:20:00] workflows that people have used. And every time the agent finishes a task and it self judges that it did a good job at that task, you take that task, you break it down into individual workflows included in that, and then you put it back in the prompt for the agent to work next time.[00:20:16] Speaker: And this we demonstrated that this leads to a 22. 5 percent increase on WebArena after 40 examples. So that's a pretty, you know, huge increase by kind of self learning and self improvement.[00:20:31] Speaker: Another thing is exploration. Oops. And one thing I think about is like, how can agents learn more about their environment before acting? And I work on coding and web agents, and there's, you know, a few good examples of this in, in both areas. Within coding, I view this as like repository understanding, understanding the code base that you're dealing with.[00:20:55] Speaker: And there's an example of this, or a couple examples of this, one example being AgentList. [00:21:00] Where they basically create a map of the repo and based on the map of the repo, they feed that into the agent so the agent can then navigate the repo and and better know where things are. And for web agents there's an example of a paper called Bagel, and basically what they do is they have the agent just do random tasks on a website, explore the website, better understand the structure of the website, and then after that they they feed that in as part of the product.[00:21:27] Speaker: Part seven is search. Right now in open hands, we just let the agent go on a linear search path. So it's just solving the problem once. We're using a good agent that can kind of like recover from errors and try alternative things when things are not working properly, but still we only have a linear search path.[00:21:45] Speaker: But there's also some nice work in 2024 that is about exploring multiple paths. So one example of this is there's a paper called Tree Search for Language Agents. And they basically expand multiple paths check whether the paths are going well, [00:22:00] and if they aren't going well, you rewind back. And on the web, this is kind of tricky, because, like, how do you rewind when you accidentally ordered something you don't want on Amazon?[00:22:09] Speaker: It's kind of, you know, not, not the easiest thing to do. For code, it's a little bit easier, because you can just revert any changes that you made. But I, I think that's an interesting topic, too.[00:22:21] Evaluation and Future Predictions for Agents[00:22:21] Speaker: And then finally evaluation. So within our development for evaluation, we want to do a number of things. The first one is fast sanity checks.[00:22:30] Speaker: And in order to do this, we want things we can run really fast, really really cheaply. So for web, we have something called mini world of bits, which is basically these trivial kind of web navigation things. We have something called the Adder Code Editing Benchmark, where it's just about editing individual files that we use.[00:22:48] Speaker: But we also want highly realistic evaluation. So for the web, we have something called WebArena that we created at CMU. This is web navigation on real real open source websites. So it's open source [00:23:00] websites that are actually used to serve shops or like bulletin boards or other things like this.[00:23:07] Speaker: And for code, we use Swebench, which I think a lot of people may have heard of. It's basically a coding benchmark that comes from real world pull requests on GitHub. So if you can solve those, you can also probably solve other real world pull requests. I would say we still don't have benchmarks for the fur full versatility of agents.[00:23:25] Speaker: So, for example We don't have benchmarks that test whether agents can code and do web navigation. But we're working on that and hoping to release something in the next week or two. So if that sounds interesting to you, come talk to me and I, I will tell you more about it.[00:23:42] Speaker: Cool. So I don't like making predictions, but I was told that I should be somewhat controversial, I guess, so I will, I will try to do it try to do it anyway, although maybe none of these will be very controversial. Um, the first thing is agent oriented LLMs like large language models for [00:24:00] agents.[00:24:00] Speaker: My, my prediction is every large LM trainer will be focusing on training models as agents. So every large language model will be a better agent model by mid 2025. Competition will increase, prices will go down, smaller models will become competitive as agents. So right now, actually agents are somewhat expensive to run in some cases, but I expect that that won't last six months.[00:24:23] Speaker: I, I bet we'll have much better agent models in six months. Another thing is instruction following ability, specifically in agentic contexts, will increase. And what that means is we'll have to do less manual engineering of agentic workflows and be able to do more by just prompting agents in more complex ways.[00:24:44] Speaker: Cloud is already really good at this. It's not perfect, but it's already really, really good. And I expect the other models will catch up to Cloud pretty soon. Error correction ability will increase, less getting stuck in loops. Again, this is something that Cloud's already pretty good at and I expect the others will, will follow.[00:25:00][00:25:01] Speaker: Agent benchmarks. Agent benchmarks will start saturating.[00:25:05] Speaker: And Swebench I think WebArena is already too easy. It, it is, it's not super easy, but it's already a bit too easy because the tasks we do in there are ones that take like two minutes for a human. So not, not too hard. And kind of historically in 2023 our benchmarks were too easy. So we built harder benchmarks like WebArena and Swebench were both built in 2023.[00:25:31] Future of Agent Development[00:25:31] Speaker: In 2024, our agents were too bad, so we built agents and now we're building better agents. In 2025, our benchmarks will be too easy, so we'll build better benchmarks, I'm, I'm guessing. So, I would expect to see much more challenging agent benchmarks come out, and we're already seeing some of them.[00:25:49] Speaker: In 2026, I don't know. I didn't write AGI, but we'll, we'll, we'll see.[00:25:56] Human-Agent Interaction Challenges[00:25:56] Speaker: Then the human agent computer interface. I think one thing that [00:26:00] we'll want to think about is what do we do at 75 percent success rate at things that we like actually care about? Right now we have 53 percent or 55 percent on Swebench verified, which is real world GitHub PRs.[00:26:16] Speaker: My impression is that the actual. Actual ability of models is maybe closer to 30 to 40%. So 30 to 40 percent of the things that I want an agent to solve on my own repos, it just solves without any human intervention. 80 to 90 percent it can solve without me opening an IDE. But I need to give it feedback.[00:26:36] Speaker: So how do we, how do we make that interaction smooth so that humans can audit? The work of agents that are really, really good, but not perfect is going to be a big challenge.[00:26:48] Expanding Agent Use Beyond Programming[00:26:48] Speaker: How can we expose the power of programming agents to other industries? So like as programmers, I think not all of us are using agents every day in our programming, although we probably will be [00:27:00] in in months or maybe a year.[00:27:02] Speaker: But I, I think it will come very naturally to us as programmers because we know code. We know, you know. Like how to architect software and stuff like that. So I think the question is how do we put this in the hands of like a lawyer or a chemist or somebody else and have them also be able to, you know, interact with it as naturally as we can.[00:27:25] Redesigning Systems for Agent Efficiency[00:27:25] Speaker: Another interesting thing is how can we redesign our existing systems for agents? So we had a paper on API based web agents, and basically what we showed is If you take a web agent and the agent interacts not with a website, but with APIs, the accuracy goes way up just because APIs are way easier to interact with.[00:27:42] Speaker: And in fact, like when I ask the, well, our agent, our agent is able to browse websites, but whenever I want it to interact with GitHub, I tell it do not browse the GitHub website. Use the GitHub API because it's way more successful at doing that. So maybe, you know, every website is going to need to have [00:28:00] an API because we're going to be having agents interact with them.[00:28:03] Accelerating Progress with Agent Technology[00:28:03] Speaker: About progress, I think progress will get faster. It's already fast. A lot of people are already overwhelmed, but I think it will continue. The reason why is agents are building agents. And better agents will build better agents faster. So I expect that you know, if you haven't interacted with a coding agent yet, it's pretty magical, like the stuff that it can do.[00:28:24] Speaker: So yeah.[00:28:28] Call to Action for Open Source Contributions[00:28:28] Speaker: And I have a call to action. I'm honestly, like I've been working on, you know, natural language processing and, and Language models for what, 15 years now. And even for me, it's pretty impressive what like AI agents powered by strong language models can do. On the other hand, I believe that we should really make these powerful tools accessible.[00:28:49] Speaker: And what I mean by this is I don't think like, you know, We, we should have these be opaque or limited to only a set, a certain set of people. I feel like they should be [00:29:00] affordable. They shouldn't be increasing the, you know, difference in the amount of power that people have. If anything, I'd really like them to kind of make it It's possible for people who weren't able to do things before to be able to do them well.[00:29:13] Speaker: Open source is one way to do that. That's why I'm working on open source. There are other ways to do that. You know, make things cheap, make things you know, so you can serve them to people who aren't able to afford them. Easily, like Duolingo is one example where they get all the people in the US to pay them 20 a month so that they can give all the people in South America free, you know, language education, so they can learn English and become, you know like, and become, you know, More attractive on the job market, for instance.[00:29:41] Speaker: And so I think we can all think of ways that we can do that sort of thing. And if that resonates with you, please contribute. Of course, I'd be happy if you contribute to OpenHands and use it. But another way you can do that is just use open source solutions, contribute to them, research with them, and train strong open source [00:30:00] models.[00:30:00] Speaker: So I see, you know, Some people in the room who are already training models. It'd be great if you could train models for coding agents and make them cheap. And yeah yeah, please. I, I was thinking about you among others. So yeah, that's all I have. Thanks.[00:30:20] Speaker 2: Slight, slightly controversial. Tick is probably the nicest way to say hot ticks. Any hot ticks questions, actual hot ticks?[00:30:31] Speaker: Oh, I can also show the other agents that were working, if anybody's interested, but yeah, sorry, go ahead.[00:30:36] Q&A: Agent Performance and Benchmarks[00:30:36] Speaker 3: Yeah, I have a couple of questions. So they're kind of paired, maybe. The first thing is that you said that You're estimating that your your agent is successfully resolving like something like 30 to 40 percent of your issues, but that's like below what you saw in Swebench.[00:30:52] Speaker 3: So I guess I'm wondering where that discrepancy is coming from. And then I guess my other second question, which is maybe broader in scope is that [00:31:00] like, if, if you think of an agent as like a junior developer, and I say, go do something, then I expect maybe tomorrow to get a Slack message being like, Hey, I ran into this issue.[00:31:10] Speaker 3: How can I resolve it? And, and, like you said, your agent is, like, successfully solving, like, 90 percent of issues where you give it direct feedback. So, are you thinking about how to get the agent to reach out to, like, for, for planning when it's, when it's stuck or something like that? Or, like, identify when it runs into a hole like that?[00:31:30] Speaker: Yeah, so great. These are great questions. Oh,[00:31:32] Speaker 3: sorry. The third question, which is a good, so this is the first two. And if so, are you going to add a benchmark for that second question?[00:31:40] Speaker: Okay. Great. Yeah. Great questions. Okay. So the first question was why do I think it's resolving less than 50 percent of the issues on Swebench?[00:31:48] Speaker: So first Swebench is on popular open source repos, and all of these popular open source repos were included in the training data for all of the language models. And so the language [00:32:00] models already know these repos. In some cases, the language models already know the individual issues in Swebench.[00:32:06] Speaker: So basically, like, some of the training data has leaked. And so it, it definitely will overestimate with respect to that. I don't think it's like, you know, Horribly, horribly off but I think, you know, it's boosting the accuracy by a little bit. So, maybe that's the biggest reason why. In terms of asking for help, and whether we're benchmarking asking for help yes we are.[00:32:29] Speaker: So one one thing we're working on now, which we're hoping to put out soon, is we we basically made SuperVig. Sweep edge issues. Like I'm having a, I'm having a problem with the matrix multiply. Please help. Because these are like, if anybody's run a popular open source, like framework, these are what half your issues are.[00:32:49] Speaker: You're like users show up and say like, my screen doesn't work. What, what's wrong or something. And so then you need to ask them questions and how to reproduce. So yeah, we're, we're, we're working on [00:33:00] that. I think. It, my impression is that agents are not very good at asking for help, even Claude. So like when, when they ask for help, they'll ask for help when they don't need it.[00:33:11] Speaker: And then won't ask for help when they do need it. So this is definitely like an issue, I think.[00:33:20] Speaker 4: Thanks for the great talk. I also have two questions.[00:33:23] Q&A: Web Agents and Interaction Methods[00:33:23] Speaker 4: It's first one can you talk a bit more about how the web agent interacts with So is there a VLM that looks at the web page layout and then you parse the HTML and select which buttons to click on? And if so do you think there's a future where there's like, so I work at Bing Microsoft AI.[00:33:41] Speaker 4: Do you think there's a future where the same web index, but there's an agent friendly web index where all the processing is done offline so that you don't need to spend time. Cleaning up, like, cleaning up these TML and figuring out what to click online. And any thoughts on, thoughts on that?[00:33:57] Speaker: Yeah, so great question. There's a lot of work on web [00:34:00] agents. I didn't go into, like, all of the details, but I think there's There's three main ways that agents interact with websites. The first way is the simplest way and the newest way, but it doesn't work very well, which is you take a screenshot of the website and then you click on a particular pixel value on the website.[00:34:23] Speaker: And Like models are not very good at that at the moment. Like they'll misclick. There was this thing about how like clawed computer use started like looking at pictures of Yellowstone national park or something like this. I don't know if you heard about this anecdote, but like people were like, oh, it's so human, it's looking for vacation.[00:34:40] Speaker: And it was like, no, it probably just misclicked on the wrong pixels and accidentally clicked on an ad. So like this is the simplest way. The second simplest way. You take the HTML and you basically identify elements in the HTML. You don't use any vision whatsoever. And then you say, okay, I want to click on this element.[00:34:59] Speaker: I want to enter text [00:35:00] in this element or something like that. But HTML is too huge. So it actually, it usually gets condensed down into something called an accessibility tree, which was made for screen readers for visually impaired people. And So that's another way. And then the third way is kind of a hybrid where you present the screenshot, but you also present like a textual summary of the output.[00:35:18] Speaker: And that's the one that I think will probably work best. What we're using is we're just using text at the moment. And that's just an implementation issue that we haven't implemented the. Visual stuff yet, but that's kind of like we're working on it now. Another thing that I should point out is we actually have two modalities for web browsing.[00:35:35] Speaker: Very recently we implemented this. And the reason why is because if you want to interact with full websites you will need to click on all of the elements or have the ability to click on all of the elements. But most of our work that we need websites for is just web browsing and like gathering information.[00:35:50] Speaker: So we have another modality where we convert all of it to markdown because that's like way more concise and easier for the agent to deal with. And then [00:36:00] can we create an index specifically for agents, maybe a markdown index or something like that would be, you know, would make sense. Oh, how would I make a successor to Swebench?[00:36:10] Speaker: So I mean, the first thing is there's like live code bench, which live code bench is basically continuously updating to make sure it doesn't leak into language model training data. That's easy to do for Swebench because it comes from real websites and those real websites are getting new issues all the time.[00:36:27] Speaker: So you could just do it on the same benchmarks that they have there. There's also like a pretty large number of things covering various coding tasks. So like, for example, Swebunch is mainly fixing issues, but there's also like documentation, there's generating tests that actually test the functionality that you want.[00:36:47] Speaker: And there there was a paper by a student at CMU on generating tests and stuff like that. So I feel like. Swebench is one piece of the puzzle, but you could also have like 10 different other tasks and then you could have like a composite [00:37:00] benchmark where you test all of these abilities, not just that particular one.[00:37:04] Speaker: Well, lots, lots of other things too, but[00:37:11] Speaker 2: Question from across. Use your mic, it will help. Um,[00:37:15] Speaker 5: Great talk. Thank you.[00:37:16] Q&A: Agent Architectures and Improvements[00:37:16] Speaker 5: My question is about your experience designing agent architectures. Specifically how much do you have to separate concerns in terms of tasks specific agents versus having one agent to do three or five things with a gigantic prompt with conditional paths and so on.[00:37:35] Speaker: Yeah, so that's a great question. So we have a basic coding and browsing agent. And I won't say basic, like it's a good, you know, it's a good agent, but it does coding and browsing. And it has instructions about how to do coding and browsing. That is enough for most things. Especially given a strong language model that has a lot of background knowledge about how to solve different types of tasks and how to use different APIs and stuff like that.[00:37:58] Speaker: We do have [00:38:00] a mechanism for something called micro agents. And micro agents are basically something that gets added to the prompt when a trigger is triggered. Right now it's very, very rudimentary. It's like if you detect the word GitHub anywhere, you get instructions about how to interact with GitHub, like use the API and don't browse.[00:38:17] Speaker: Also another one that I just added is for NPM, the like JavaScript package manager. And NPM, when it runs and it hits a failure, it Like hits in interactive terminals where it says, would you like to quit? Yep. Enter yes. And if that does it, it like stalls our agent for the time out until like two minutes.[00:38:36] Speaker: So like I added a new microagent whenever it started using NPM, it would Like get instructions about how to not use interactive terminal and stuff like that. So that's our current solution. Honestly, I like it a lot. It's simple. It's easy to maintain. It works really well and stuff like that. But I think there is a world where you would want something more complex than that.[00:38:55] Speaker 5: Got it. Thank you.[00:38:59] Speaker 6: I got a [00:39:00] question about MCP. I feel like this is the Anthropic Model Context Protocol. It seems like the most successful type of this, like, standardization of interactions between computers and agents. Are you guys adopting it? Is there any other competing standard?[00:39:16] Speaker 6: Anything, anything thought about it?[00:39:17] Speaker: Yeah, I think the Anth, so the Anthropic MCP is like, a way to It, it's essentially a collection of APIs that you can use to interact with different things on the internet. I, I think it's not a bad idea, but it, it's like, there's a few things that bug me a little bit about it.[00:39:40] Speaker: It's like we already have an API for GitHub, so why do we need an MCP for GitHub? Right. You know, like GitHub has an API, the GitHub API is evolving. We can look up the GitHub API documentation. So it seems like kind of duplicated a little bit. And also they have a setting where [00:40:00] it's like you have to spin up a server to serve your GitHub stuff.[00:40:04] Speaker: And you have to spin up a server to serve your like, you know, other stuff. And so I think it makes, it makes sense if you really care about like separation of concerns and security and like other things like this, but right now we haven't seen, we haven't seen that. To have a lot more value than interacting directly with the tools that are already provided.[00:40:26] Speaker: And that kind of goes into my general philosophy, which is we're already developing things for programmers. You know,[00:40:36] Speaker: how is an agent different than from a programmer? And it is different, obviously, you know, like agents are different from programmers, but they're not that different at this point. So we can kind of interact with the interfaces we create for, for programmers. Yeah. I might change my mind later though.[00:40:51] Speaker: So we'll see.[00:40:54] Speaker 7: Yeah. Hi. Thanks. Very interesting talk. You were saying that the agents you have right now [00:41:00] solve like maybe 30 percent of your, your issues out of the gate. I'm curious of the things that it doesn't do. Is there like a pattern that you observe? Like, Oh, like these are the sorts of things that it just seems to really struggle with, or is it just seemingly random?[00:41:15] Speaker: It's definitely not random. It's like, if you think it's more complex than it's. Like, just intuitively, it's more likely to fail. I've gotten a bit better at prompting also, so like, just to give an example it, it will sometimes fail to fix a GitHub workflow because it will not look at the GitHub workflow and understand what the GitHub workflow is doing before it solves the problem.[00:41:43] Speaker: So I, I think actually probably the biggest thing that it fails at is, um, er, that our, our agent plus Claude fails at is insufficient information gathering before trying to solve the task. And so if you provide all, if you provide instructions that it should do information [00:42:00] gathering beforehand, it tends to do well.[00:42:01] Speaker: If you don't provide sufficient instructions, it will try to solve the task without, like, fully understanding the task first, and then fail, and then you need to go back and give feedback. You know, additional feedback. Another example, like, I, I love this example. While I was developing the the monitor website that I, I showed here, we hit a really tricky bug where it was writing out a cache file to a different directory than it was reading the cache file from.[00:42:26] Speaker: And I had no idea what to do. I had no idea what was going on. I, I thought the bug was in a different part of the code, but what I asked it to do was come up with five possible reasons why this could be failing and decreasing order of likelihood and examine all of them. And that worked and it could just go in and like do that.[00:42:44] Speaker: So like I think a certain level of like scaffolding about like how it should sufficiently Gather all the information that's necessary in order to solve a task is like, if that's missing, then that's probably the biggest failure point at the moment. [00:43:00][00:43:01] Speaker 7: Thanks.[00:43:01] Speaker 6: Yeah.[00:43:06] Speaker 6: I'm just, I'm just using this as a chance to ask you all my questions.[00:43:09] Q&A: Self-Improving Agents and Authentication[00:43:09] Speaker 6: You had a, you had a slide on here about like self improving agents or something like that with memory. It's like a really throwaway slide for like a super powerful idea. It got me thinking about how I would do it. I have no idea how.[00:43:21] Speaker 6: So I just wanted you to chain a thought more on this.[00:43:25] Speaker: Yeah, self, self improving. So I think the biggest reason, like the simplest possible way to create a self improving agent. The problem with that is to have a really, really strong language model that with infinite context, and it can just go back and look at like all of its past experiences and, you know, learn from them.[00:43:46] Speaker: You might also want to remove the bad stuff just so it doesn't over index on it's like failed past experiences. But the problem is a really powerful language model is large. Infinite context is expensive. We don't have a good way to [00:44:00] index into it because like rag, Okay. At least in my experience, RAG from language to code doesn't work super well.[00:44:08] Speaker: So I think in the end, it's like, that's the way I would like to solve this problem. I'd like to have an infinite context and somehow be able to index into it appropriately. And I think that would mostly solve it. Another thing you can do is fine tuning. So I think like RAG is one way to get information into your model.[00:44:23] Speaker: Fine tuning is another way to get information into your model. So. That might be another way of continuously improving. Like you identify when you did a good job and then just add all of the good examples into your model.[00:44:34] Speaker 6: Yeah. So, you know, how like Voyager tries to write code into a skill library and then you reuse as a skill library, right?[00:44:40] Speaker 6: So that it improves in the sense that it just builds up the skill library over time.[00:44:44] Speaker: Yep.[00:44:44] Speaker 6: One thing I was like thinking about and there's this idea of, from, from Devin, your, your arch nemesis of playbooks. I don't know if you've seen them.[00:44:52] Speaker: Yeah, I mean, we're calling them workflows, but they're simpler.[00:44:55] Speaker 6: Yeah, so like, basically, like, you should, like, once a workflow works, you can kind of, [00:45:00] like, persist them as a skill library. Yeah. Right? Like I, I feel like that there's a, that's like some in between, like you said, you know, it's hard to do rag between language and code, but I feel like that is ragged for, like, I've done this before, last time I did it, this, this worked.[00:45:14] Speaker 6: So I'm just going to shortcut. All the stuff that failed before.[00:45:18] Speaker: Yeah, I totally, I think it's possible. It's just, you know, not, not trivial at the same time. I'll explain the two curves. So basically, the base, the baseline is just an agent that does it from scratch every time. And this curve up here is agent workflow memory where it's like adding the successful experiences back into the prompt.[00:45:39] Speaker: Why is this improving? The reason why is because just it failed on the first few examples and for the average to catch up it, it took a little bit of time. So it's not like this is actually improving it. You could just basically view the this one is constant and then this one is like improving.[00:45:56] Speaker: Like this, basically you can see it's continuing to go [00:46:00] up.[00:46:01] Speaker 8: How do you think we're going to solve the authentication problem for agents right now?[00:46:05] Speaker: When you say authentication, you mean like credentials, like, yeah.[00:46:09] Speaker 8: Yeah. Cause I've seen a few like startup solutions today, but it seems like it's limited to the amount of like websites or actual like authentication methods that it's capable of performing today.[00:46:19] Speaker: Yeah. Great questions. So. My preferred solution to this at the moment is GitHub like fine grained authentication tokens and GitHub fine grained authentication tokens allow you to specify like very free. On a very granular basis on this repo, you have permission to do this, on this repo, you have permission to do this.[00:46:41] Speaker: You also can prevent people from pushing to the main branch unless they get approved. You can do all of these other things. And I think these were all developed for human developers. Or like, the branch protection rules were developed for human developers. The fine grained authentication tokens were developed for GitHub apps.[00:46:56] Speaker: I think for GitHub, maybe [00:47:00] just pushing this like a little bit more is the way to do this. For other things, they're totally not prepared to give that sort of fine grained control. Like most APIs don't have something like a fine grained authentication token. And that goes into my like comment that we're going to need to prepare the world for agents, I think.[00:47:17] Speaker: But I think like the GitHub authentication tokens are like a good template for how you could start doing that maybe, but yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't have an answer.[00:47:25] Speaker 8: I'll let you know if I find one.[00:47:26] Speaker: Okay. Yeah.[00:47:31] Live Demonstration and Closing Remarks[00:47:31] Speaker: I'm going to finish up. Let, let me just see.[00:47:37] Speaker: Okay. So this one this one did write a script. I'm not going to actually read it for you. And then the other one, let's see.[00:47:51] Speaker: Yeah. So it sent a PR, sorry. What is, what is the PR URL?[00:48:00][00:48:02] Speaker: So I don't, I don't know if this sorry, that's taking way longer than it should. Okay, cool. Yeah. So this one sent a PR. I'll, I'll tell you later if this actually like successfully Oh, no, it's deployed on Vercel, so I can actually show you, but let's, let me try this real quick. Sorry. I know I don't have time.[00:48:24] Speaker: Yeah, there you go. I have pie charts now. So it's so fun. It's so fun to play with these things. Cause you could just do that while I'm giving a, you know, talk and things like that. So, yeah, thanks. Get full access to Latent Space at www.latent.space/subscribe

In this episode of No Priors, Sarah talks with Eric Simons, co-founder and CEO of StackBlitz. The company has experienced explosive growth since the launch 2 months ago of Bolt.new, an AI application that lets users prompt, run, edit, and deploy full-stack applications directly in the browser. Eric talks about the years-long journey that led to overnight success, why so many non-technical users are forming a community around Bolt, and the democratization of coding. Sign up for new podcasts every week. Email feedback to show@no-priors.com Follow us on Twitter: @NoPriorsPod | @Saranormous | @EladGil | @EricSimons40 Show Notes: 0:00 Introduction 0:36 Bolt.new 2:04 How Bolt stands out from other coding assistants 3:28 Building beyond ChatGPT wrappers 6:13 Driving growth through community 9:42 Evals 13:29 Eric's favorite use cases and startups leveraging Bolt 17:10 Why engineers are embracing no- code tools 24:32 The years long journey of StackBlitz 31:50 Balancing an Ironman, a newborn, and a product launch 35:18 Predictions for developers and code generation tools

The full schedule for Latent Space LIVE! at NeurIPS has been announced, featuring Best of 2024 overview talks for the AI Startup Landscape, Computer Vision, Open Models, Transformers Killers, Synthetic Data, Agents, and Scaling, and speakers from Sarah Guo of Conviction, Roboflow, AI2/Meta, Recursal/Together, HuggingFace, OpenHands and SemiAnalysis. Join us for the IRL event/Livestream! Alessio will also be holding a meetup at AWS Re:Invent in Las Vegas this Wednesday. See our new Events page for dates of AI Engineer Summit, Singapore, and World's Fair in 2025. LAST CALL for questions for our big 2024 recap episode! Submit questions and messages on Speakpipe here for a chance to appear on the show!When we first observed that GPT Wrappers are Good, Actually, we did not even have Bolt on our radar. Since we recorded our Anthropic episode discussing building Agents with the new Claude 3.5 Sonnet, Bolt.new (by Stackblitz) has easily cleared the $8m ARR bar, repeating and accelerating its initial $4m feat.There are very many AI code generators and VS Code forks out there, but Bolt probably broke through initially because of its incredible zero shot low effort app generation:But as we explain in the pod, Bolt also emphasized deploy (Netlify)/ backend (Supabase)/ fullstack capabilities on top of Stackblitz's existing WebContainer full-WASM-powered-developer-environment-in-the-browser tech. Since then, the team has been shipping like mad (with weekly office hours), with bugfixing, full screen, multi-device, long context, diff based edits (using speculative decoding like we covered in Inference, Fast and Slow).All of this has captured the imagination of low/no code builders like Greg Isenberg and many others on YouTube/TikTok/Reddit/X/Linkedin etc:Just as with Fireworks, our relationship with Bolt/Stackblitz goes a bit deeper than normal - swyx advised the launch and got a front row seat to this epic journey, as well as demoed it with Realtime Voice at the recent OpenAI Dev Day. So we are very proud to be the first/closest to tell the full open story of Bolt/Stackblitz!Flow Engineering + Qodo/AlphaCodium UpdateIn year 2 of the pod we have been on a roll getting former guests to return as guest cohosts (Harrison Chase, Aman Sanger, Jon Frankle), and it was a pleasure to catch Itamar Friedman back on the pod, giving us an update on all things Qodo and Testing Agents from our last catchup a year and a half ago:Qodo (they renamed in September) went viral in early January this year with AlphaCodium (paper here, code here) beating DeepMind's AlphaCode with high efficiency:With a simple problem solving code agent:* The first step is to have the model reason about the problem. They describe it using bullet points and focus on the goal, inputs, outputs, rules, constraints, and any other relevant details.* Then, they make the model reason about the public tests and come up with an explanation of why the input leads to that particular output. * The model generates two to three potential solutions in text and ranks them in terms of correctness, simplicity, and robustness. * Then, it generates more diverse tests for the problem, covering cases not part of the original public tests. * Iteratively, pick a solution, generate the code, and run it on a few test cases. * If the tests fail, improve the code and repeat the process until the code passes every test.swyx has previously written similar thoughts on types vs tests for putting bounds on program behavior, but AlphaCodium extends this to AI generated tests and code.More recently, Itamar has also shown that AlphaCodium's techniques also extend well to the o1 models:Making Flow Engineering a useful technique to improve code model performance on every model. This is something we see AI Engineers uniquely well positioned to do compared to ML Engineers/Researchers.Full Video PodcastLike and subscribe!Show Notes* Itamar* Qodo* First episode* Eric* Bolt* StackBlitz* Thinkster* AlphaCodium* WebContainersChapters* 00:00:00 Introductions & Updates* 00:06:01 Generic vs. Specific AI Agents* 00:07:40 Maintaining vs Creating with AI* 00:17:46 Human vs Agent Computer Interfaces* 00:20:15 Why Docker doesn't work for Bolt* 00:24:23 Creating Testing and Code Review Loops* 00:28:07 Bolt's Task Breakdown Flow* 00:31:04 AI in Complex Enterprise Environments* 00:41:43 AlphaCodium* 00:44:39 Strategies for Breaking Down Complex Tasks* 00:45:22 Building in Open Source* 00:50:35 Choosing a product as a founder* 00:59:03 Reflections on Bolt Success* 01:06:07 Building a B2C GTM* 01:18:11 AI Capabilities and Pricing Tiers* 01:20:28 What makes Bolt unique* 01:23:07 Future Growth and Product Development* 01:29:06 Competitive Landscape in AI Engineering* 01:30:01 Advice to Founders and Embracing AI* 01:32:20 Having a baby and completing an Iron ManTranscriptAlessio [00:00:00]: Hey everyone, welcome to the Latent Space Podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO at Decibel Partners, and I'm joined by my co-host Swyx, founder of Smol.ai.Swyx [00:00:12]: Hey, and today we're still in our sort of makeshift in-between studio, but we're very delighted to have a former returning guest host, Itamar. Welcome back.Itamar [00:00:21]: Great to be here after a year or more. Yeah, a year and a half.Swyx [00:00:24]: You're one of our earliest guests on Agents. Now you're CEO co-founder of Kodo. Right. Which has just been renamed. You also raised a $40 million Series A, and we can get caught up on everything, but we're also delighted to have our new guest, Eric. Welcome.Eric [00:00:42]: Thank you. Excited to be here. Should I say Bolt or StackBlitz?Swyx [00:00:45]: Like, is it like its own company now or?Eric [00:00:47]: Yeah. Bolt's definitely bolt.new. That's the thing that we're probably the most known for, I imagine, at this point.Swyx [00:00:54]: Which is ridiculous to say because you were working at StackBlitz for so long.Eric [00:00:57]: Yeah. I mean, within a week, we were doing like double the amount of traffic. And StackBlitz had been online for seven years, and we were like, what? But anyways, yeah. So we're StackBlitz, the company behind bolt.new. If you've heard of bolt.new, that's our stuff. Yeah.Swyx [00:01:12]: Yeah.Itamar [00:01:13]: Excellent. I see, by the way, that the founder mode, you need to know to capture opportunities. So kudos on doing that, right? You're working on some technology, and then suddenly you can exploit that to a new world. Yeah.Eric [00:01:24]: Totally. And I think, well, not to jump, but 100%, I mean, a couple of months ago, we had the idea for Bolt earlier this year, but we haven't really shared this too much publicly. But we actually had tried to build it with some of those state-of-the-art models back in January, February, you can kind of imagine which, and they just weren't good enough to actually do the code generation where the code was accurate and it was fast and whatever have you without a ton of like rag, but then there was like issues with that. So we put it on the shelf and then we got kind of a sneak peek of some of the new models that have come out in the past couple of months now. And so once we saw that, once we actually saw the code gen from it, we were like, oh my God, like, okay, we can build a product around this. And so that was really the impetus of us building the thing. But with that, it was StackBlitz, the core StackBlitz product the past seven years has been an IDE for developers. So the entire user experience flow we've built up just didn't make sense. And so when we kind of went out to build Bolt, we just thought, you know, if we were inventing our product today, what would the interface look like given what is now possible with the AI code gen? And so there's definitely a lot of conversations we had internally, but you know, just kind of when we logically laid it out, we were like, yeah, I think it makes sense to just greenfield a new thing and let's see what happens. If it works great, then we'll figure it out. If it doesn't work great, then it'll get deleted at some point. So that's kind of how it actually came to be.Swyx [00:02:49]: I'll mention your background a little bit. You were also founder of Thinkster before you started StackBlitz. So both of you are second time founders. Both of you have sort of re-founded your company recently. Yours was more of a rename. I think a slightly different direction as well. And then we can talk about both. Maybe just chronologically, should we get caught up on where Kodo is first and then you know, just like what people should know since the last pod? Sure.Itamar [00:03:12]: The last pod was two months after we launched and we basically had the vision that we talked about. The idea that software development is about specification, test and code, etc. We are more on the testing part as in essence, we think that if you solve testing, you solve software development. The beautiful chart that we'll put up on screen. And testing is a really big field, like there are many dimensions, unit testing, the level of the component, how big it is, how large it is. And then there is like different type of testing, is it regression or smoke or whatever. So back then we only had like one ID extension with unit tests as in focus. One and a half year later, first ID extension supports more type of testing as context aware. We index local, local repos, but also 10,000s of repos for Fortune 500 companies. We have another agent, another tool that is called, the pure agent is the open source and the commercial one is CodoMerge. And then we have another open source called CoverAgent, which is not yet a commercial product coming very soon. It's very impressive. It could be that already people are approving automated pull requests that they don't even aware in really big open sources. So once we have enough of these, we will also launch another agent. So for the first one and a half year, what we did is grew in our offering and mostly on the side of, does this code actually works, testing, code review, et cetera. And we believe that's the critical milestone that needs to be achieved to actually have the AI engineer for enterprise software. And then like for the first year was everything bottom up, getting to 1 million installation. 2024, that was 2023, 2024 was starting to monetize, to feel like how it is to make the first buck. So we did the teams offering, it went well with a thousand of teams, et cetera. And then we started like just a few months ago to do enterprise with everything you need, which is a lot of things that discussed in the last post that was just released by Codelm. So that's how we call it at Codelm. Just opening the brackets, our company name was Codelm AI, and we renamed to Codo and we call our models Codelm. So back to my point, so we started Enterprise Motion and already have multiple Fortune 100 companies. And then with that, we raised a series of $40 million. And what's exciting about it is that enables us to develop more agents. That's our focus. I think it's very different. We're not coming very soon with an ID or something like that.Swyx [00:06:01]: You don't want to fork this code?Itamar [00:06:03]: Maybe we'll fork JetBrains or something just to be different.Swyx [00:06:08]: I noticed that, you know, I think the promise of general purpose agents has kind of died. Like everyone is doing kind of what you're doing. There's Codogen, Codomerge, and then there's a third one. What's the name of it?Itamar [00:06:17]: Yeah. Codocover. Cover. Which is like a commercial version of a cover agent. It's coming soon.Swyx [00:06:23]: Yeah. It's very similar with factory AI, also doing like droids. They all have special purpose doing things, but people don't really want general purpose agents. Right. The last time you were here, we talked about AutoGBT, the biggest thing of 2023. This year, not really relevant anymore. And I think it's mostly just because when you give me a general purpose agent, I don't know what to do with it.Eric [00:06:42]: Yeah.Itamar [00:06:43]: I totally agree with that. We're seeing it for a while and I think it will stay like that despite the computer use, et cetera, that supposedly can just replace us. You can just like prompt it to be, hey, now be a QA or be a QA person or a developer. I still think that there's a few reasons why you see like a dedicated agent. Again, I'm a bit more focused, like my head is more on complex software for big teams and enterprise, et cetera. And even think about permissions and what are the data sources and just the same way you manage permissions for users. Developers, you probably want to have dedicated guardrails and dedicated approvals for agents. I intentionally like touched a point on not many people think about. And of course, then what you can think of, like maybe there's different tools, tool use, et cetera. But just the first point by itself is a good reason why you want to have different agents.Alessio [00:07:40]: Just to compare that with Bot.new, you're almost focused on like the application is very complex and now you need better tools to kind of manage it and build on top of it. On Bot.new, it's almost like I was using it the other day. There's basically like, hey, look, I'm just trying to get started. You know, I'm not very opinionated on like how you're going to implement this. Like this is what I want to do. And you build a beautiful app with it. What people ask as the next step, you know, going back to like the general versus like specific, have you had people say, hey, you know, this is great to start, but then I want a specific Bot.new dot whatever else to do a more vertical integration and kind of like development or what's the, what do people say?Eric [00:08:18]: Yeah. I think, I think you kind of hit the, hit it head on, which is, you know, kind of the way that we've, we've kind of talked about internally is it's like people are using Bolt to go from like 0.0 to 1.0, like that's like kind of the biggest unlock that Bolt has versus most other things out there. I mean, I think that's kind of what's, what's very unique about Bolt. I think the, you know, the working on like existing enterprise applications is, I mean, it's crazy important because, you know, there's a, you look, when you look at the fortune 500, I mean, these code bases, some of these have been around for 20, 30 plus years. And so it's important to be going from, you know, 101.3 to 101.4, et cetera. I think for us, so what's been actually pretty interesting is we see there's kind of two different users for us that are coming in and it's very distinct. It's like people that are developers already. And then there's people that have never really written software and more if they have, it's been very, very minimal. And so in the first camp, what these developers are doing, like to go from zero to one, they're coming to Bolt and then they're ejecting the thing to get up or just downloading it and, you know, opening cursor, like whatever to, to, you know, keep iterating on the thing. And sometimes they'll bring it back to Bolt to like add in a huge piece of functionality or something. Right. But for the people that don't know how to code, they're actually just, they, they live in this thing. And that was one of the weird things when we launched is, you know, within a day of us being online, one of the most popular YouTube videos, and there's been a ton since, which was, you know, there's like, oh, Bolt is the cursor killer. And I originally saw the headlines and I was like, thanks for the views. I mean, I don't know. This doesn't make sense to me. That's not, that's not what we kind of thought.Swyx [00:09:44]: It's how YouTubers talk to each other. Well, everything kills everything else.Eric [00:09:47]: Totally. But what blew my mind was that there was any comparison because it's like cursor is a, is a local IDE product. But when, when we actually kind of dug into it and we, and we have people that are using our product saying this, I'm not using cursor. And I was like, what? And it turns out there are hundreds of thousands of people that we have seen that we're using cursor and we're trying to build apps with that where they're not traditional software does, but we're heavily leaning on the AI. And as you can imagine, it is very complicated, right? To do that with cursor. So when Bolt came out, they're like, wow, this thing's amazing because it kind of inverts the complexity where it's like, you know, it's not an IDE, it's, it's a, it's a chat-based sort of interface that we have. So that's kind of the split, which is rather interesting. We've had like the first startups now launch off of Bolt entirely where this, you know, tomorrow I'm doing a live stream with this guy named Paul, who he's built an entire CRM using this thing and you know, with backend, et cetera. And people have made their first money on the internet period, you know, launching this with Stripe or whatever have you. So that's, that's kind of the two main, the two main categories of folks that we see using Bolt though.Itamar [00:10:51]: I agree that I don't understand the comparison. It doesn't make sense to me. I think like we have like two type of families of tools. One is like we re-imagine the software development. I think Bolt is there and I think like a cursor is more like a evolution of what we already have. It's like taking the IDE and it's, it's amazing and it's okay, let's, let's adapt the IDE to an era where LLMs can do a lot for us. And Bolt is more like, okay, let's rethink everything totally. And I think we see a few tools there, like maybe Vercel, Veo and maybe Repl.it in that area. And then in the area of let's expedite, let's change, let's, let's progress with what we already have. You can see Cursor and Kodo, but we're different between ourselves, Cursor and Kodo, but definitely I think that comparison doesn't make sense.Alessio [00:11:42]: And just to set the context, this is not a Twitter demo. You've made 4 million of revenue in four weeks. So this is, this is actually working, you know, it's not a, what, what do you think that is? Like, there's been so many people demoing coding agents on Twitter and then it doesn't really work. And then you guys were just like, here you go, it's live, go use it, pay us for it. You know, is there anything in the development that was like interesting and maybe how that compares to building your own agents?Eric [00:12:08]: We had no idea, honestly, like we, we, we've been pretty blown away and, and things have just kind of continued to grow faster since then. We're like, oh, today is week six. So I, I kind of came back to the point you just made, right, where it's, you, you kind of outlined, it's like, there's kind of this new market of like kind of rethinking the software development and then there's heavily augmenting existing developers. I think that, you know, both of which are, you know, AI code gen being extremely good, it's allowed existing developers, it's allowing existing developers to camera out software far faster than they could have ever before, right? It's like the ultimate power tool for an existing developer. But this code gen stuff is now so good. And then, and we saw this over the past, you know, from the beginning of the year when we tried to first build, it's actually lowered the barrier to people that, that aren't traditionally software engineers. But the kind of the key thing is if you kind of think about it from, imagine you've never written software before, right? My co-founder and I, he and I grew up down the street from each other in Chicago. We learned how to code when we were 13 together and we've been building stuff ever since. And this is back in like the mid 2000s or whatever, you know, there was nothing for free to learn from online on the internet and how to code. For our 13th birthdays, we asked our parents for, you know, O'Reilly books cause you couldn't get this at the library, right? And so instead of like an Xbox, we got, you know, programming books. But the hardest part for everyone learning to code is getting an environment set up locally, you know? And so when we built StackBlitz, like kind of the key thesis, like seven years ago, the insight we had was that, Hey, it seems like the browser has a lot of new APIs like WebAssembly and service workers, et cetera, where you could actually write an operating system that ran inside the browser that could boot in milliseconds. And you, you know, basically there's this missing capability of the web. Like the web should be able to build apps for the web, right? You should be able to build the web on the web. Every other platform has that, Visual Studio for Windows, Xcode for Mac. The web has no built in primitive for this. And so just like our built in kind of like nerd instinct on this was like, that seems like a huge hole and it's, you know, it will be very valuable or like, you know, very valuable problem to solve. So if you want to set up that environments, you know, this is what we spent the past seven years doing. And the reality is existing developers have running locally. They already know how to set up that environment. So the problem isn't as acute for them. When we put Bolt online, we took that technology called WebContainer and married it with these, you know, state of the art frontier models. And the people that have the most pain with getting stuff set up locally is people that don't code. I think that's been, you know, really the big explosive reason is no one else has been trying to make dev environments work inside of a browser tab, you know, for the past if since ever, other than basically our company, largely because there wasn't an immediate demand or need. So I think we kind of find ourselves at the right place at the right time. And again, for this market of people that don't know how to write software, you would kind of expect that you should be able to do this without downloading something to your computer in the same way that, hey, I don't have to download Photoshop now to make designs because there's Figma. I don't have to download Word because there's, you know, Google Docs. They're kind of looking at this as that sort of thing, right? Which was kind of the, you know, our impetus and kind of vision from the get-go. But you know, the code gen, the AI code gen stuff that's come out has just been, you know, an order of magnitude multiplier on how magic that is, right? So that's kind of my best distillation of like, what is going on here, you know?Alessio [00:15:21]: And you can deploy too, right?Eric [00:15:22]: Yeah.Alessio [00:15:23]: Yeah.Eric [00:15:24]: And so that's, what's really cool is it's, you know, we have deployment built in with Netlify and this is actually, I think, Sean, you actually built this at Netlify when you were there. Yeah. It's one of the most brilliant integrations actually, because, you know, effectively the API that Sean built, maybe you can speak to it, but like as a provider, we can just effectively give files to Netlify without the user even logging in and they have a live website. And if they want to keep, hold onto it, they can click a link and claim it to their Netlify account. But it basically is just this really magic experience because when you come to Bolt, you say, I want a website. Like my mom, 70, 71 years old, made her first website, you know, on the internet two weeks ago, right? It was about her nursing days.Swyx [00:16:03]: Oh, that's fantastic though. It wouldn't have been made.Eric [00:16:06]: A hundred percent. Cause even in, you know, when we've had a lot of people building personal, like deeply personal stuff, like in the first week we launched this, the sales guy from the East Coast, you know, replied to a tweet of mine and he said, thank you so much for building this to your team. His daughter has a medical condition and so for her to travel, she has to like line up donors or something, you know, so ahead of time. And so he actually used Bolt to make a website to do that, to actually go and send it to folks in the region she was going to travel to ahead of time. I was really touched by it, but I also thought like, why, you know, why didn't he use like Wix or Squarespace? Right? I mean, this is, this is a solved problem, quote unquote, right? And then when I thought, I actually use Squarespace for my, for my, uh, the wedding website for my wife and I, like back in 2021, so I'm familiar, you know, it was, it was faster. I know how to code. I was like, this is faster. Right. And I thought back and I was like, there's a whole interface you have to learn how to use. And it's actually not that simple. There's like a million things you can configure in that thing. When you come to Bolt, there's a, there's a text box. You just say, I need a, I need a wedding website. Here's the date. Here's where it is. And here's a photo of me and my wife, put it somewhere relevant. It's actually the simplest way. And that's what my, when my mom came, she said, uh, I'm Pat Simons. I was a nurse in the seventies, you know, and like, here's the things I did and a website came out. So coming back to why is this such a, I think, why are we seeing this sort of growth? It's, this is the simplest interface I think maybe ever created to actually build it, a deploy a website. And then that website, my mom made, she's like, okay, this looks great. And there's, there's one button, you just click it, deploy, and it's live and you can buy a domain name, attach it to it. And you know, it's as simple as it gets, it's getting even simpler with some of the stuff we're working on. But anyways, so that's, it's, it's, uh, it's been really interesting to see some of the usage like that.Swyx [00:17:46]: I can offer my perspective. So I, you know, I probably should have disclosed a little bit that, uh, I'm a, uh, stack list investor.Alessio [00:17:53]: Canceled the episode. I know, I know. Don't play it now. Pause.Eric actually reached out to ShowMeBolt before the launch. And we, you know, we talked a lot about, like, the framing of, of what we're going to talk about how we marketed the thing, but also, like, what we're So that's what Bolt was going to need, like a whole sort of infrastructure.swyx: Netlify, I was a maintainer but I won't take claim for the anonymous upload. That's actually the origin story of Netlify. We can have Matt Billman talk about it, but that was [00:18:00] how Netlify started. You could drag and drop your zip file or folder from your desktop onto a website, it would have a live URL with no sign in.swyx: And so that was the origin story of Netlify. And it just persists to today. And it's just like it's really nice, interesting that both Bolt and CognitionDevIn and a bunch of other sort of agent type startups, they all use Netlify to deploy because of this one feature. They don't really care about the other features.swyx: But, but just because it's easy for computers to use and talk to it, like if you build an interface for computers specifically, that it's easy for them to Navigate, then they will be used in agents. And I think that's a learning that a lot of developer tools companies are having. That's my bolt launch story and now if I say all that stuff.swyx: And I just wanted to come back to, like, the Webcontainers things, right? Like, I think you put a lot of weight on the technical modes. I think you also are just like, very good at product. So you've, you've like, built a better agent than a lot of people, the rest of us, including myself, who have tried to build these things, and we didn't get as far as you did.swyx: Don't shortchange yourself on products. But I think specifically [00:19:00] on, on infra, on like the sandboxing, like this is a thing that people really want. Alessio has Bax E2B, which we'll have on at some point, talking about like the sort of the server full side. But yours is, you know, inside of the browser, serverless.swyx: It doesn't cost you anything to serve one person versus a million people. It doesn't, doesn't cost you anything. I think that's interesting. I think in theory, we should be able to like run tests because you can run the full backend. Like, you can run Git, you can run Node, you can run maybe Python someday.swyx: We talked about this. But ideally, you should be able to have a fully gentic loop, running code, seeing the errors, correcting code, and just kind of self healing, right? Like, I mean, isn't that the dream?Eric: Totally.swyx: Yeah,Eric: totally. At least in bold, we've got, we've got a good amount of that today. I mean, there's a lot more for us to do, but one of the nice things, because like in web container, you know, there's a lot of kind of stuff you go Google like, you know, turn docker container into wasm.Eric: You'll find a lot of stuff out there that will do that. The problem is it's very big, it's slow, and that ruins the experience. And so what we ended up doing is just writing an operating system from [00:20:00] scratch that was just purpose built to, you know, run in a browser tab. And the reason being is, you know, Docker 2 awesome things will give you an image that's like out 60 to 100 megabits, you know, maybe more, you know, and our, our OS, you know, kind of clocks in, I think, I think we're in like a, maybe, maybe a megabyte or less or something like that.Eric: I mean, it's, it's, you know, really, really, you know, stripped down.swyx: This is basically the task involved is I understand that it's. Mapping every single, single Linux call to some kind of web, web assembly implementation,Eric: but more or less, and, and then there's a lot of things actually, like when you're looking at a dev environment, there's a lot of things that you don't need that a traditional OS is gonna have, right?Eric: Like, you know audio drivers or you like, there's just like, there's just tons of things. Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah. That goes . Yeah. You can just kind, you can, you can kind of tos them. Or alternatively, what you can do is you can actually be the nice thing. And this is, this kind of comes back to the origins of browsers, which is, you know, they're, they're at the beginning of the web and, you know, the late nineties, there was two very different kind of visions for the web where Alan Kay vehemently [00:21:00] disagree with the idea that should be document based, which is, you know, Tim Berners Lee, you know, that, and that's kind of what ended up winning, winning was this document based kind of browsing documents on the web thing.Eric: Alan Kay, he's got this like very famous quote where he said, you know, you want web browsers to be mini operating systems. They should download little mini binaries and execute with like a little mini virtualized operating system in there. And what's kind of interesting about the history, not to geek out on this aspect, what's kind of interesting about the history is both of those folks ended up being right.Eric: Documents were actually the pragmatic way that the web worked. Was, you know, became the most ubiquitous platform in the world to the degree now that this is why WebAssembly has been invented is that we're doing, we need to do more low level things in a browser, same thing with WebGPU, et cetera. And so all these APIs, you know, to build an operating system came to the browser.Eric: And that was actually the realization we had in 2017 was, holy heck, like you can actually, you know, service workers, which were designed for allowing your app to work offline. That was the kind of the key one where it was like, wait a second, you can actually now run. Web servers within a [00:22:00] browser, like you can run a server that you open up.Eric: That's wild. Like full Node. js. Full Node. js. Like that capability. Like, I can have a URL that's programmatically controlled. By a web application itself, boom. Like the web can build the web. The primitive is there. Everyone at the time, like we talked to people that like worked on, you know Chrome and V8 and they were like, uhhhh.Eric: You know, like I don't know. But it's one of those things you just kind of have to go do it to find out. So we spent a couple of years, you know, working on it and yeah. And, and, and got to work in back in 2021 is when we kind of put the first like data of web container online. Butswyx: in partnership with Google, right?swyx: Like Google actually had to help you get over the finish line with stuff.Eric: A hundred percent, because well, you know, over the years of when we were doing the R and D on the thing. Kind of the biggest challenge, the two ways that you can kind of test how powerful and capable a platform are, the two types of applications are one, video games, right, because they're just very compute intensive, a lot of calculations that have to happen, right?Eric: The second one are IDEs, because you're talking about actually virtualizing the actual [00:23:00] runtime environment you are in to actually build apps on top of it, which requires sophisticated capabilities, a lot of access to data. You know, a good amount of compute power, right, to effectively, you know, building app in app sort of thing.Eric: So those, those are the stress tests. So if your platform is missing stuff, those are the things where you find out. Those are, those are the people building games and IDEs. They're the ones filing bugs on operating system level stuff. And for us, browser level stuff.Eric [00:23:47]: yeah, what ended up happening is we were just hammering, you know, the Chromium bug tracker, and they're like, who are these guys? Yeah. And, and they were amazing because I mean, just making Chrome DevTools be able to debug, I mean, it's, it's not, it wasn't originally built right for debugging an operating system, right? They've been phenomenal working with us and just kind of really pushing the limits, but that it's a rising tide that's kind of lifted all boats because now there's a lot of different types of applications that you can debug with Chrome Dev Tools that are running a browser that runs more reliably because just the stress testing that, that we and, you know, games that are coming to the web are kind of pushing as well, but.Itamar [00:24:23]: That's awesome. About the testing, I think like most, let's say coding assistant from different kinds will need this loop of testing. And even I would add code review to some, to some extent that you mentioned. How is testing different from code review? Code review could be, for example, PR review, like a code review that is done at the point of when you want to merge branches. But I would say that code review, for example, checks best practices, maintainability, and so on. It's not just like CI, but more than CI. And testing is like a more like checking functionality, et cetera. So it's different. We call, by the way, all of these together code integrity, but that's a different story. Just to go back to the, to the testing and specifically. Yeah. It's, it's, it's since the first slide. Yeah. We're consistent. So if we go back to the testing, I think like, it's not surprising that for us testing is important and for Bolt it's testing important, but I want to shed some light on a different perspective of it. Like let's think about autonomous driving. Those startups that are doing autonomous driving for highway and autonomous driving for the city. And I think like we saw the autonomous of the highway much faster and reaching to a level, I don't know, four or so much faster than those in the city. Now, in both cases, you need testing and quote unquote testing, you know, verifying validation that you're doing the right thing on the road and you're reading and et cetera. But it's probably like so different in the city that it could be like actually different technology. And I claim that we're seeing something similar here. So when you're building the next Wix, and if I was them, I was like looking at you and being a bit scared. That's what you're disrupting, what you just said. Then basically, I would say that, for example, the UX UI is freaking important. And because you're you're more aiming for the end user. In this case, maybe it's an end user that doesn't know how to develop for developers. It's also important. But let alone those that do not know to develop, they need a slick UI UX. And I think like that's one reason, for example, I think Cursor have like really good technology. I don't know the underlying what's under the hood, but at least what they're saying. But I think also their UX UI is great. It's a lot because they did their own ID. While if you're aiming for the city AI, suddenly like there's a lot of testing and code review technology that it's not necessarily like that important. For example, let's talk about integration tests. Probably like a lot of what you're building involved at the moment is isolated applications. Maybe the vision or the end game is maybe like having one solution for everything. It could be that eventually the highway companies will go into the city and the other way around. But at the beginning, there is a difference. And integration tests are a good example. I guess they're a bit less important. And when you think about enterprise software, they're really important. So to recap, like I think like the idea of looping and verifying your test and verifying your code in different ways, testing or code review, et cetera, seems to be important in the highway AI and the city AI, but in different ways and different like critical for the city, even more and more variety. Actually, I was looking to ask you like what kind of loops you guys are doing. For example, when I'm using Bolt and I'm enjoying it a lot, then I do see like sometimes you're trying to catch the errors and fix them. And also, I noticed that you're breaking down tasks into smaller ones and then et cetera, which is already a common notion for a year ago. But it seems like you're doing it really well. So if you're willing to share anything about it.Eric [00:28:07]: Yeah, yeah. I realized I never actually hit the punchline of what I was saying before. I mentioned the point about us kind of writing an operating system from scratch because what ended up being important about that is that to your point, it's actually a very, like compared to like a, you know, if you're like running cursor on anyone's machine, you kind of don't know what you're dealing with, with the OS you're running on. There could be an error happens. It could be like a million different things, right? There could be some config. There could be, it could be God knows what, right? The thing with WebConnect is because we wrote the entire thing from scratch. It's actually a unified image basically. And we can instrument it at any level that we think is going to be useful, which is exactly what we did when we started building Bolt is we instrumented stuff at like the process level, at the runtime level, you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Stuff that would just be not impossible to do on local, but to do that in a way that works across any operating system, whatever is, I mean, would just be insanely, you know, insanely difficult to do right and reliably. And that's what you saw when you've used Bolt is that when an error actually will occur, whether it's in the build process or the actual web application itself is failing or anything kind of in between, you can actually capture those errors. And today it's a very primitive way of how we've implemented it largely because the product just didn't exist 90 days ago. So we're like, we got some work ahead of us and we got to hire some more a little bit, but basically we present and we say, Hey, this is, here's kind of the things that went wrong. There's a fix it button and then a ignore button, and then you can just hit fix it. And then we take all that telemetry through our agent, you run it through our agent and say, kind of, here's the state of the application. Here's kind of the errors that we got from Node.js or the browser or whatever, and like dah, dah, dah, dah. And it can take a crack at actually solving it. And it's actually pretty darn good at being able to do that. That's kind of been a, you know, closing the loop and having it be a reliable kind of base has seemed to be a pretty big upgrade over doing stuff locally, just because I think that's a pretty key ingredient of it. And yeah, I think breaking things down into smaller tasks, like that's, that's kind of a key part of our agent. I think like Claude did a really good job with artifacts. I think, you know, us and kind of everyone else has, has kind of taken their approach of like actually breaking out certain tasks in a certain order into, you know, kind of a concrete way. And, and so actually the core of Bolt, I know we actually made open source. So you can actually go and check out like the system prompts and et cetera, and you can run it locally and whatever have you. So anyone that's interested in this stuff, I'd highly recommend taking a look at. There's not a lot of like stuff that's like open source in this realm. It's, that was one of the fun things that we've we thought would be cool to do. And people, people seem to like it. I mean, there's a lot of forks and people adding different models and stuff. So it's been cool to see.Swyx [00:30:41]: Yeah. I'm happy to add, I added real-time voice for my opening day demo and it was really fun to hack with. So thank you for doing that. Yeah. Thank you. I'm going to steal your code.Eric [00:30:52]: Because I want that.Swyx [00:30:52]: It's funny because I built on top of the fork of Bolt.new that already has the multi LLM thing. And so you just told me you're going to merge that in. So then you're going to merge two layers of forks down into this thing. So it'll be fun.Eric [00:31:03]: Heck yeah.Alessio [00:31:04]: Just to touch on like the environment, Itamar, you maybe go into the most complicated environments that even the people that work there don't know how to run. How much of an impact does that have on your performance? Like, you know, it's most of the work you're doing actually figuring out environment and like the libraries, because I'm sure they're using outdated version of languages, they're using outdated libraries, they're using forks that have not been on the public internet before. How much of the work that you're doing is like there versus like at the LLM level?Itamar [00:31:32]: One of the reasons I was asking about, you know, what are the steps to break things down, because it really matters. Like, what's the tech stack? How complicated the software is? It's hard to figure it out when you're dealing with the real world, any environment of enterprise as a city, when I'm like, while maybe sometimes like, I think you do enable like in Bolt, like to install stuff, but it's quite a like controlled environment. And that's a good thing to do, because then you narrow down and it's easier to make things work. So definitely, there are two dimensions, I think, actually spaces. One is the fact just like installing our software without yet like doing anything, making it work, just installing it because we work with enterprise and Fortune 500, etc. Many of them want on prem solution.Swyx [00:32:22]: So you have how many deployment options?Itamar [00:32:24]: Basically, we had, we did a metric metrics, say 96 options, because, you know, they're different dimensions. Like, for example, one dimension, we connect to your code management system to your Git. So are you having like GitHub, GitLab? Subversion? Is it like on cloud or deployed on prem? Just an example. Which model agree to use its APIs or ours? Like we have our Is it TestGPT? Yeah, when we started with TestGPT, it was a huge mistake name. It was cool back then, but I don't think it's a good idea to name a model after someone else's model. Anyway, that's my opinion. So we gotSwyx [00:33:02]: I'm interested in these learnings, like things that you change your mind on.Itamar [00:33:06]: Eventually, when you're building a company, you're building a brand and you want to create your own brand. By the way, when I thought about Bolt.new, I also thought about if it's not a problem, because when I think about Bolt, I do think about like a couple of companies that are already called this way.Swyx [00:33:19]: Curse companies. You could call it Codium just to...Itamar [00:33:24]: Okay, thank you. Touche. Touche.Eric [00:33:27]: Yeah, you got to imagine the board meeting before we launched Bolt, one of our investors, you can imagine they're like, are you sure? Because from the investment side, it's kind of a famous, very notorious Bolt. And they're like, are you sure you want to go with that name? Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely.Itamar [00:33:43]: At this point, we have actually four models. There is a model for autocomplete. There's a model for the chat. There is a model dedicated for more for code review. And there is a model that is for code embedding. Actually, you might notice that there isn't a good code embedding model out there. Can you name one? Like dedicated for code?Swyx [00:34:04]: There's code indexing, and then you can do sort of like the hide for code. And then you can embed the descriptions of the code.Itamar [00:34:12]: Yeah, but you do see a lot of type of models that are dedicated for embedding and for different spaces, different fields, etc. And I'm not aware. And I know that if you go to the bedrock, try to find like there's a few code embedding models, but none of them are specialized for code.Swyx [00:34:31]: Is there a benchmark that you would tell us to pay attention to?Itamar [00:34:34]: Yeah, so it's coming. Wait for that. Anyway, we have our models. And just to go back to the 96 option of deployment. So I'm closing the brackets for us. So one is like dimensional, like what Git deployment you have, like what models do you agree to use? Dotter could be like if it's air-gapped completely, or you want VPC, and then you have Azure, GCP, and AWS, which is different. Do you use Kubernetes or do not? Because we want to exploit that. There are companies that do not do that, etc. I guess you know what I mean. So that's one thing. And considering that we are dealing with one of all four enterprises, we needed to deal with that. So you asked me about how complicated it is to solve that complex code. I said, it's just a deployment part. And then now to the software, we see a lot of different challenges. For example, some companies, they did actually a good job to build a lot of microservices. Let's not get to if it's good or not, but let's first assume that it is a good thing. A lot of microservices, each one of them has their own repo. And now you have tens of thousands of repos. And you as a developer want to develop something. And I remember me coming to a corporate for the first time. I don't know where to look at, like where to find things. So just doing a good indexing for that is like a challenge. And moreover, the regular indexing, the one that you can find, we wrote a few blogs on that. By the way, we also have some open source, different than yours, but actually three and growing. Then it doesn't work. You need to let the tech leads and the companies influence your indexing. For example, Mark with different repos with different colors. This is a high quality repo. This is a lower quality repo. This is a repo that we want to deprecate. This is a repo we want to grow, etc. And let that be part of your indexing. And only then things actually work for enterprise and they don't get to a fatigue of, oh, this is awesome. Oh, but I'm starting, it's annoying me. I think Copilot is an amazing tool, but I'm quoting others, meaning GitHub Copilot, that they see not so good retention of GitHub Copilot and enterprise. Ooh, spicy. Yeah. I saw snapshots of people and we have customers that are Copilot users as well. And also I saw research, some of them is public by the way, between 38 to 50% retention for users using Copilot and enterprise. So it's not so good. By the way, I don't think it's that bad, but it's not so good. So I think that's a reason because, yeah, it helps you auto-complete, but then, and especially if you're working on your repo alone, but if it's need that context of remote repos that you're code-based, that's hard. So to make things work, there's a lot of work on that, like giving the controllability for the tech leads, for the developer platform or developer experience department in the organization to influence how things are working. A short example, because if you have like really old legacy code, probably some of it is not so good anymore. If you just fine tune on these code base, then there is a bias to repeat those mistakes or old practices, etc. So you need, for example, as I mentioned, to influence that. For example, in Coda, you can have a markdown of best practices by the tech leads and Coda will include that and relate to that and will not offer suggestions that are not according to the best practices, just as an example. So that's just a short list of things that you need to do in order to deal with, like you mentioned, the 100.1 to 100.2 version of software. I just want to say what you're doing is extremelyEric [00:38:32]: impressive because it's very difficult. I mean, the business of Stackplus, kind of before bulk came online, we sold a version of our IDE that went on-prem. So I understand what you're saying about the difficulty of getting stuff just working on-prem. Holy heck. I mean, that is extremely hard. I guess the question I have for you is, I mean, we were just doing that with kind of Kubernetes-based stuff, but the spread of Fortune 500 companies that you're working with, how are they doing the inference for this? Are you kind of plugging into Azure's OpenAI stuff and AWS's Bedrock, you know, Cloud stuff? Or are they just like running stuff on GPUs? Like, what is that? How are these folks approaching that? Because, man, what we saw on the enterprise side, I mean, I got to imagine that that's a huge challenge. Everything you said and more, like,Itamar [00:39:15]: for example, like someone could be, and I don't think any of these is bad. Like, they made their decision. Like, for example, some people, they're, I want only AWS and VPC on AWS, no matter what. And then they, some of them, like there is a subset, I will say, I'm willing to take models only for from Bedrock and not ours. And we have a problem because there is no good code embedding model on Bedrock. And that's part of what we're doing now with AWS to solve that. We solve it in a different way. But if you are willing to run on AWS VPC, but run your run models on GPUs or inferentia, like the new version of the more coming out, then our models can run on that. But everything you said is right. Like, we see like on-prem deployment where they have their own GPUs. We see Azure where you're using OpenAI Azure. We see cases where you're running on GCP and they want OpenAI. Like this cross, like a case, although there is Gemini or even Sonnet, I think is available on GCP, just an example. So all the options, that's part of the challenge. I admit that we thought about it, but it was even more complicated. And it took us a few months to actually, that metrics that I mentioned, to start clicking each one of the blocks there. A few months is impressive. I mean,Eric [00:40:35]: honestly, just that's okay. Every one of these enterprises is, their networking is different. Just everything's different. Every single one is different. I see you understand. Yeah. So that just cannot be understated. That it is, that's extremely impressive. Hats off.Itamar [00:40:50]: It could be, by the way, like, for example, oh, we're only AWS, but our GitHub enterprise is on-prem. Oh, we forgot. So we need like a private link or whatever, like every time like that. It's not, and you do need to think about it if you want to work with an enterprise. And it's important. Like I understand like their, I respect their point of view.Swyx [00:41:10]: And this primarily impacts your architecture, your tech choices. Like you have to, you can't choose some vendors because...Itamar [00:41:15]: Yeah, definitely. To be frank, it makes us hard for a startup because it means that we want, we want everyone to enjoy all the variety of models. By the way, it was hard for us with our technology. I want to open a bracket, like a window. I guess you're familiar with our Alpha Codium, which is an open source.Eric [00:41:33]: We got to go over that. Yeah. So I'll do that quickly.Itamar [00:41:36]: Yeah. A pin in that. Yeah. Actually, we didn't have it in the last episode. So, so, okay.Swyx [00:41:41]: Okay. We'll come back to that later, but let's talk about...Itamar [00:41:43]: Yeah. So, so just like shortly, and then we can double click on Alpha Codium. But Alpha Codium is a open source tool. You can go and try it and lets you compete on CodeForce. This is a website and a competition and actually reach a master level level, like 95% with a click of a button. You don't need to do anything. And part of what we did there is taking a problem and breaking it to different, like smaller blocks. And then the models are doing a much better job. Like we all know it by now that taking small tasks and solving them, by the way, even O1, which is supposed to be able to do system two thinking like Greg from OpenAI like hinted, is doing better on these kinds of problems. But still, it's very useful to break it down for O1, despite O1 being able to think by itself. And that's what we presented like just a month ago, OpenAI released that now they are doing 93 percentile with O1 IOI left and International Olympiad of Formation. Sorry, I forgot. Exactly. I told you I forgot. And we took their O1 preview with Alpha Codium and did better. Like it just shows like, and there is a big difference between the preview and the IOI. It shows like that these models are not still system two thinkers, and there is a big difference. So maybe they're not complete system two. Yeah, they need some guidance. I call them system 1.5. We can, we can have it. I thought about it. Like, you know, I care about this philosophy stuff. And I think like we didn't see it even close to a system two thinking. I can elaborate later. But closing the brackets, like we take Alpha Codium and as our principle of thinking, we take tasks and break them down to smaller tasks. And then we want to exploit the best model to solve them. So I want to enable anyone to enjoy O1 and SONET and Gemini 1.5, etc. But at the same time, I need to develop my own models as well, because some of the Fortune 500 want to have all air gapped or whatever. So that's a challenge. Now you need to support so many models. And to some extent, I would say that the flow engineering, the breaking down to two different blocks is a necessity for us. Why? Because when you take a big block, a big problem, you need a very different prompt for each one of the models to actually work. But when you take a big problem and break it into small tasks, we can talk how we do that, then the prompt matters less. What I want to say, like all this, like as a startup trying to do different deployment, getting all the juice that you can get from models, etc. is a big problem. And one need to think about it. And one of our mitigation is that process of taking tasks and breaking them down. That's why I'm really interested to know how you guys are doing it. And part of what we do is also open source. So you can see.Swyx [00:44:39]: There's a lot in there. But yeah, flow over prompt. I do believe that that does make sense. I feel like there's a lot that both of you can sort of exchange notes on breaking down problems. And I just want you guys to just go for it. This is fun to watch.Eric [00:44:55]: Yeah. I mean, what's super interesting is the context you're working in is, because for us too with Bolt, we've started thinking because our kind of existing business line was going behind the firewall, right? We were like, how do we do this? Adding the inference aspect on, we're like, okay, how does... Because I mean, there's not a lot of prior art, right? I mean, this is all new. This is all new. So I definitely am going to have a lot of questions for you.Itamar [00:45:17]: I'm here. We're very open, by the way. We have a paper on a blog or like whatever.Swyx [00:45:22]: The Alphacodeum, GitHub, and we'll put all this in the show notes.Itamar [00:45:25]: Yeah. And even the new results of O1, we published it.Eric [00:45:29]: I love that. And I also just, I think spiritually, I like your approach of being transparent. Because I think there's a lot of hype-ium around AI stuff. And a lot of it is, it's just like, you have these companies that are just kind of keep their stuff closed source and then just max hype it, but then it's kind of nothing. And I think it kind of gives a bad rep to the incredible stuff that's actually happening here. And so I think it's stuff like what you're doing where, I mean, true merit and you're cracking open actual code for others to learn from and use. That strikes me as the right approach. And it's great to hear that you're making such incredible progress.Itamar [00:46:02]: I have something to share about the open source. Most of our tools are, we have an open source version and then a premium pro version. But it's not an easy decision to do that. I actually wanted to ask you about your strategy, but I think in your case, there is, in my opinion, relatively a good strategy where a lot of parts of open source, but then you have the deployment and the environment, which is not right if I get it correctly. And then there's a clear, almost hugging face model. Yeah, you can do that, but why should you try to deploy it yourself, deploy it with us? But in our case, and I'm not sure you're not going to hit also some competitors, and I guess you are. I wanted to ask you, for example, on some of them. In our case, one day we looked on one of our competitors that is doing code review. We're a platform. We have the code review, the testing, et cetera, spread over the ID to get. And in each agent, we have a few startups or a big incumbents that are doing only that. So we noticed one of our competitors having not only a very similar UI of our open source, but actually even our typo. And you sit there and you're kind of like, yeah, we're not that good. We don't use enough Grammarly or whatever. And we had a couple of these and we saw it there. And then it's a challenge. And I want to ask you, Bald is doing so well, and then you open source it. So I think I know what my answer was. I gave it before, but still interestingEric [00:47:29]: to hear what you think. GeoHot said back, I don't know who he was up to at this exact moment, but I think on comma AI, all that stuff's open source. And someone had asked him, why is this open source? And he's like, if you're not actually confident that you can go and crush it and build the best thing, then yeah, you should probably keep your stuff closed source. He said something akin to that. I'm probably kind of butchering it, but I thought it was kind of a really good point. And that's not to say that you should just open source everything, because for obvious reasons, there's kind of strategic things you have to kind of take in mind. But I actually think a pretty liberal approach, as liberal as you kind of can be, it can really make a lot of sense. Because that is so validating that one of your competitors is taking your stuff and they're like, yeah, let's just kind of tweak the styles. I mean, clearly, right? I think it's kind of healthy because it keeps, I'm sure back at HQ that day when you saw that, you're like, oh, all right, well, we have to grind even harder to make sure we stay ahead. And so I think it's actually a very useful, motivating thing for the teams. Because you might feel this period of comfort. I think a lot of companies will have this period of comfort where they're not feeling the competition and one day they get disrupted. So kind of putting stuff out there and letting people push it forces you to face reality soon, right? And actually feel that incrementally so you can kind of adjust course. And that's for us, the open source version of Bolt has had a lot of features people have been begging us for, like persisting chat messages and checkpoints and stuff. Within the first week, that stuff was landed in the open source versions. And they're like, why can't you ship this? It's in the open, so people have forked it. And we're like, we're trying to keep our servers and GPUs online. But it's been great because the folks in the community did a great job, kept us on our toes. And we've got to know most of these folks too at this point that have been building these things. And so it actually was very instructive. Like, okay, well, if we're going to go kind of land this, there's some UX patterns we can kind of look at and the code is open source to this stuff. What's great about these, what's not. So anyways, NetNet, I think it's awesome. I think from a competitive point of view for us, I think in particular, what's interesting is the core technology of WebContainer going. And I think that right now, there's really nothing that's kind of on par with that. And we also, we have a business of, because WebContainer runs in your browser, but to make it work, you have to install stuff from NPM. You have to make cores bypass requests, like connected databases, which all require server-side proxying or acceleration. And so we actually sell WebContainer as a service. One of the core reasons we open-sourced kind of the core components of Bolt when we launched was that we think that there's going to be a lot more of these AI, in-your-browser AI co-gen experiences, kind of like what Anthropic did with Artifacts and Clod. By the way, Artifacts uses WebContainers. Not yet. No, yeah. Should I strike that? I think that they've got their own thing at the moment, but there's been a lot of interest in WebContainers from folks doing things in that sort of realm and in the AI labs and startups and everything in between. So I think there'll be, I imagine, over the coming months, there'll be lots of things being announced to folks kind of adopting it. But yeah, I think effectively...Swyx [00:50:35]: Okay, I'll say this. If you're a large model lab and you want to build sandbox environments inside of your chat app, you should call Eric.Itamar [00:50:43]: But wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I have a question about that. I think OpenAI, they felt that people are not using their model as they would want to. So they built ChatGPT. But I would say that ChatGPT now defines OpenAI. I know they're doing a lot of business from their APIs, but still, is this how you think? Isn't Bolt.new your business now? Why don't you focus on that instead of the...Swyx [00:51:16]: What's your advice as a founder?Eric [00:51:18]: You're right. And so going into it, we, candidly, we were like, Bolt.new, this thing is super cool. We think people are stoked. We think people will be stoked. But we were like, maybe that's allowed. Best case scenario, after month one, we'd be mind blown if we added a couple hundred K of error or something. And we were like, but we think there's probably going to be an immediate huge business. Because there was some early poll on folks wanting to put WebContainer into their product offerings, kind of similar to what Bolt is doing or whatever. We were actually prepared for the inverse outcome here. But I mean, well, I guess we've seen poll on both. But I mean, what's happened with Bolt, and you're right, it's actually the same strategy as like OpenAI or Anthropic, where we have our ChatGPT to OpenAI's APIs is Bolt to WebContainer. And so we've kind of taken that same approach. And we're seeing, I guess, some of the similar results, except right now, the revenue side is extremely lopsided to Bolt.Itamar [00:52:16]: I think if you ask me what's my advice, I think you have three options. One is to focus on Bolt. The other is to focus on the WebContainer. The third is to raise one billion dollars and do them both. I'm serious. I think otherwise, you need to choose. And if you raise enough money, and I think it's big bucks, because you're going to be chased by competitors. And I think it will be challenging to do both. And maybe you can. I don't know. We do see these numbers right now, raising above $100 million, even without havingEric [00:52:49]: a product. You can see these. It's excellent advice. And I think what's been amazing, but also kind of challenging is we're trying to forecast, okay, well, where are these things going? I mean, in the initial weeks, I think us and all the investors in the company that we're sharing this with, it was like, this is cool. Okay, we added 500k. Wow, that's crazy. Wow, we're at a million now. Most things, you have this kind of the tech crunch launch of initiation and then the thing of sorrow. And if there's going to be a downtrend, it's just not coming yet. Now that we're kind of looking ahead, we're six weeks in. So now we're getting enough confidence in our convictions to go, okay, this se

Hey folks, Alex here, and oof what a

As a product advocate at Nx, Katerina Skroumpelou combines her engineering skills with a knack for connecting with clients. In this episode, she shares how clear documentation, scalable architectures, and a collaborative culture can transform software development for the better.Key Takeaways[00:01:25] Katerina's Background: Robby and Katerina discuss her career journey, starting in engineering and recently moving into product advocacy.[00:02:29] Characteristics of Well-Maintained Software: Katerina highlights key aspects of maintainable software—readability, scalability, and reliability.[00:04:39] Product Advocacy at Nx: Katerina describes her unique role, bridging technical support and customer outreach to ensure clients make the most of Nx tools.[00:07:01] White Glove Approach: The “white glove” service approach allows Katerina to dive deep into clients' codebases, offering a hands-on approach to using Nx effectively.[00:09:52] Scalable Documentation Practices: Balancing clarity and detail, Katerina provides tips on structuring code comments and READMEs to be concise yet thorough.[00:12:09] Managing Technical Debt: Robby and Katerina discuss the importance of keeping code up-to-date and scalable, especially in large systems with high demands.[00:16:00] The Importance of Collaboration: Moving from solo work to team-based code reviews taught Katerina the value of a collaborative approach to maintainable code.[00:19:15] Nx's Monorepo Solution: How Nx provides cache and build tools to optimize mono-repo performance, boosting both speed and organization within projects.[00:22:12] Nx Cloud and CI: Katerina discusses Nx Cloud's role in enhancing CI workflows by allowing parallel tasks and cache sharing across teams.[00:24:07] When to Consider Monorepos: Katerina explains the benefits of monorepos for organizing codebases and improving scalability.[00:26:37] AI Tools in Development: Katerina shares her enthusiasm for new AI tools like StackBlitz's Bolt and their potential to streamline app development.[00:29:00] Finding Motivation at Work: Advice for developers who feel stuck or unmotivated in their current roles and ways to reconnect with the work they enjoy.Resources MentionedNx DevStackBlitz Bolt.newBooks:The Three-Body Problem by Cixin LiuCryptonomicon by Neal StephensonSlaughterhouse-Five by Kurt VonnegutKaterina's social profiles:LinkedInTwitterBlueskyThanks to Our Sponsor!Turn hours of debugging into just minutes! AppSignal is a performance monitoring and error-tracking tool designed for Ruby, Elixir, Python, Node.js, Javascript, and other frameworks.It offers six powerful features with one simple interface, providing developers with real-time insights into the performance and health of web applications.Keep your coding cool and error-free, one line at a time! Use the code maintainable to get a 10% discount for your first year. Check them out! Subscribe to Maintainable on:Apple PodcastsSpotifyOr search "Maintainable" wherever you stream your podcasts.Keep up to date with the Maintainable Podcast by joining the newsletter.

.io domains have been in vogue for over a decade, but now that the British government has decided to give up sovereignty over the small set of islands in the Indian Ocean that owned that country code on the Internet, it will soon cease to exist. Evan You, of Vue JS and Vite fame, has started a new company VoidZero Inc. to build the next generation toolchain for JavaScript. While trying to make Vite even better, Evan realized he needed a full-time team and funding to build the best toolchain around, and the engineers and investors agreed.StackBlitz enters the AI arena as well with its bolt.new offering, AI-powered software development allowing users to prompt, run, edit, and deploy full-stack web apps directly in the browser.WordPress drama reaches new levels of pettiness with a new checkbox that users must check before signing into their WP accounts swearing they are not affiliated with WP Engine in any way. In happier news, Sentry doubles down on its support for open source software (and the maintainers) by creating the Open Source Pledge where companies who use OSS for profit are encouraged to commit to paying the maintainers of the software they use so that burnout and related security issues can be better addressed.News:Paige - void(0) JavaScript toolingJack - StackBlitz's Bolt.new AI dev toolTJ - The end of .io domainsBonus News:Waymo updateWordPress updateSentry launches the Open Source PledgeSentry itself gave $500k to OS maintainers this yearDeno 2 is officially out!Fire Starters:HTTP QUERYWhat Makes Us Happy this Week:Paige - The Lord of the Rings: Rings of Power season 2Jack - The Substance movieTJ - Cider millsThanks as always to our sponsor, the Blue Collar Coder channel on YouTube. You can join us in our Discord channel, explore our website and reach us via email, or Tweet us on X @front_end_fire and BlueSky.Front-end Fire websiteBlue Collar Coder on YouTubeBlue Collar Coder on DiscordReach out via emailTweet at us on X @front_end_fireFollow us on Bluesky @front-end-fire.com

Shawn Wang (aka swyx) is the founder of smol.ai (AI news curation), and the cohost of Latent Space (popular AI Engineer podcast). Plus, Shawn started the AI Engineer movement with his essay Rise of the AI Engineer and organized two incredible AI engineer conferences in the past twelve months - AI Engineer World's Fair and AI Engineer SummitAnd Shawn has angel invested in DevTools like Airbyte, Railway, Supabase, Replay.io, Stackblitz, Flutterflow, Fireworks.ai while running the DevTools angels community. Besides this, Shawn curates DX.tips (DevTools magazine) and in a past life wrote the Coding Career handbook, championed learn in public, cofounded Svelte Society and was previously Head of Developer Experience at Temporal, and a Developer Advocate at AWS and Netlify.Also, before this, Shawn had a very successful career in investment banking, trading, building data pipelines and performing quantitate portfolio management. I think this brings him a very unique perspective - I've always admired his ability to zoom out and see the big picture and the trends. Even though Shawn is now all-in on AI, he's still one of the go-to authorities on DevTools go-to-market.As you can tell, Shawn is someone I deeply admire. So I'm glad he came back.What we discuss:Organizing the AI Engineer ConferencesRise of the AI EngineerIntentionality and principles (yes we even talk about Alcoholics Anonymous)The AI CEOInvisible deadlinesIlya believing in AGI more than most people at OpenAIAre developers going to be obsolete? Thor convinced swyx to invest in SupabaseBuilding DevTools that work well with LLMsAngel investing in DevTools - why and howIs DevRel dead?How to hire DevRelWhy DX.tips existsLinks:Rise of the AI Engineer https://www.latent.space/p/ai-engineerLatent Space Podcast https://www.latent.space/swyx's Twitter https://x.com/swyxswyx's website https://www.swyx.io/swyx's LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/shawnswyxwang/smol.ai https://smol.ai/DevTools Angels https://github.com/sw-yx/devtools-angelsDX.tips https://dx.tips/DevRel's Death as Zero Interest Rate Phenomenon https://dx.tips/zirp AI Engineer Summit https://www.ai.engineer/summit/2023AI Engineer World's Fair https://www.ai.engineer/worldsfairCoding Career Handbook https://www.learninpublic.org/Shawn's previous appearance on Scaling DevTools https://podcast.scalingdevtools.com/episodes/swyx Eisenhower Matrix https://asana.com/resources/eisenhower-matrixThor from Supabase https://x.com/thorwebdevSolaris AI coworking space in SF https://www.solarissf.com/Browserbase https://www.browserbase.com/Indent https://indent.com/ and Fouad https://x.com/fouadmatinHow to do hackathons https://dx.tips/hackathonsHow to do conferences https://dx.tips/conf-guideHow to hire DevRel https://dx.tips/mailbox-first-devrel-hiringClimbing the ladder of abstraction with Amelia Wattenberger https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAy_GHUAICwCheck out the Enterprise Ready Conf from WorkOS https://enterprise-ready.com/

https://podcast.scalingdevtools.com/episodes/swyx-2Plus, Shawn started the AI Engineer movement with his essay Rise of the AI Engineer and organized two incredible AI engineer conferences in the past twelve months - AI Engineer World's Fair and AI Engineer SummitAnd Shawn has angel invested in DevTools like Airbyte, Railway, Supabase, Replay.io, Stackblitz, Flutterflow, Fireworks.ai while running the DevTools angels community.Besides this, Shawn curates DX.tips (DevTools magazine) and in a past life wrote the Coding Career handbook, championed learn in public, cofounded Svelte Society and was previously Head of Developer Experience at Temporal, and a Developer Advocate at AWS and Netlify.Also, before this, Shawn had a very successful career in investment banking, trading, building data pipelines and performing quantitate portfolio management. I think this brings him a very unique perspective - I've always admired his ability to zoom out and see the big picture and the trends.Even though Shawn is now all-in on AI, he's still one of the go-to authorities on DevTools go-to-market.As you can tell, Shawn is someone I deeply admire. So I'm glad he came back.What we discuss:Organizing the AI Engineer ConferencesRise of the AI EngineerIntentionality and principles (yes we even talk about Alcoholics Anonymous)The AI CEOInvisible deadlinesIlya believing in AGI more than most people at OpenAIAre developers going to be obsolete? Thor convinced swyx to invest in SupabaseBuilding DevTools that work well with LLMsAngel investing in DevTools - why and howIs DevRel dead?How to hire DevRelWhy DX.tips existsLinks:Rise of the AI Engineer https://www.latent.space/p/ai-engineerLatent Space Podcast https://www.latent.space/swyx's Twitter https://x.com/swyxswyx's website https://www.swyx.io/swyx's LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/shawnswyxwang/smol.ai https://smol.ai/DevTools Angels https://github.com/sw-yx/devtools-angelsDX.tips https://dx.tips/DevRel's Death as Zero Interest Rate Phenomenon https://dx.tips/zirp AI Engineer Summit https://www.ai.engineer/summit/2023AI Engineer World's Fair https://www.ai.engineer/worldsfairCoding Career Handbook https://www.learninpublic.org/Shawn's previous appearance on Scaling DevTools https://podcast.scalingdevtools.com/episodes/swyx Eisenhower Matrix https://asana.com/resources/eisenhower-matrixThor from Supabase https://x.com/thorwebdevSolaris AI coworking space in SF https://www.solarissf.com/Browserbase https://www.browserbase.com/Indent https://indent.com/ and Fouad https://x.com/fouadmatinHow to do hackathons https://dx.tips/hackathonsHow to do conferences https://dx.tips/conf-guideHow to hire DevRel https://dx.tips/mailbox-first-devrel-hiringClimbing the ladder of abstraction with Amelia Wattenberger https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAy_GHUAICw...for the job. And they should not be doing that job and they should try something else to do. People pay for it because they need the job title to be filled more than they need that person. Those good people are very hard to reach.That's one thing there. I also mentioned some other things that I've found in the different roles in the category: Bottoms-up and open source have been very challenging in the growing a company success criteria. That's what different roles focus on: bottoms-up and open source, and particularly open source. You don't have to be open source. 

AJ and Steve dive deep into the world of interactive coding tutorials alongside guest, Tomek Sułkowski. They kick off with a brief chat about the weather before delving into Tomek's expertise in creating engaging and interactive tutorials—shedding light on everything from the history of coding tutorials to the technical wonders of web containers, brought to prominence by platforms like Stackblitz.They explore the innovative "tutorials kit dot dev," a revelatory tool for developers, and discuss the triumphs and challenges in building these interactive learning experiences. Plus, discover amazing tech insights from AJ, development updates from Tomek, and a whole lot more. SocialsLinkedIn: Tomek Sułkowski PicksAJ - Rocky Mountain ATVAJ - pg-essentialsAJ - SSH now has IncludeAJ - DeepSeek-Coder-v2Tomek - Component partyTomek - IconesBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/javascript-jabber--6102064/support.

In this panel episode, our hosts dive into the latest tools and frameworks, AI integration, the performance bottlenecks of server-side rendering, and more. Tune in to hear hot takes and insights from our industry experts. Links https://x.com/trashhdev https://x.com/pniedri https://bsky.app/profile/noel.minc.how https://x.com/emilykochanek We want to hear from you! How did you find us? Did you see us on Twitter? In a newsletter? Or maybe we were recommended by a friend? Let us know by sending an email to our producer, Emily, at emily.kochanekketner@logrocket.com (mailto:emily.kochanekketner@logrocket.com), or tweet at us at PodRocketPod (https://twitter.com/PodRocketpod). Follow us. Get free stickers. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, fill out this form (https://podrocket.logrocket.com/get-podrocket-stickers), and we'll send you free PodRocket stickers! What does LogRocket do? LogRocket provides AI-first session replay and analytics that surfaces the UX and technical issues impacting user experiences. Start understand where your users are struggling by trying it for free at [LogRocket.com]. Try LogRocket for free today.(https://logrocket.com/signup/?pdr)

Very excited for this episode as I am joined by the always awesome Rich Stack. We discuss leading from the front. Having the moral courage to call a mayday. Family and the fire service, the sacrifices and the struggle. Training your instincts and of course... blitz attack!  And as every scrapper knows, that is only what we had planned and does not include all of the wonderful questions from the audience that make the Scrap so amazing! 

Adam sits down with Peter to discuss top down verse bottom-up sales motions, getting PLG off the ground, and some considerations when it comes to open source / freemium.

This week we're joined by Eric Simons, CEO of StackBlitz. StackBlitz is an online IDE for web applications, powered by a new web standard called WebContainers. Web container allow you to run code much closer to the OS, and StackBlitz uses this to run NodeJS and NPM in the browser. We also talk about Eric's time living in AOL's headquarters, and how that led eventually to the creation of StackBlitz. ⁠https://twitter.com/ericsimons40⁠ ⁠https://twitter.com/StackBlitz⁠ ⁠https://stackblitz.com/@EricSimons⁠ Episode sponsored By Raycast (⁠https://www.raycast.com/⁠) Become a paid subscriber our patreon, spotify, or apple podcasts for the full episode. ⁠https://www.patreon.com/devtoolsfm⁠ ⁠https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/devtoolsfm/subscribe⁠ ⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/devtools-fm/id1566647758⁠ ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@devtoolsfm/membership⁠ Tooltips Andrew ⁠https://github.com/webdiscus/html-bundler-webpack-plugin⁠ ⁠https://next-video.dev/⁠ Justin Blob APIs from netlify and val.town ⁠https://www.netlify.com/blog/introducing-netlify-blobs-beta/⁠ ⁠https://twitter.com/stevekrouse/status/1724792828310741045⁠ ⁠https://github.com/immich-app/immich⁠ Eric The new angular.dev site  viteconf.org remix.run

Happy 2024! We appreciated all the feedback on the listener survey (still open, link here)! Surprising to see that some people's favorite episodes were others' least, but we'll always work on improving our audio quality and booking great guests. Help us out by leaving reviews on Twitter, YouTube, and Apple Podcasts!

We welcome back Tomek Sułkowski, founding engineer of StackBlitz, to talk about what's new in StackBlitz and what the future looks like for the IDE. Links https://twitter.com/sulco https://www.linkedin.com/in/tsulkowski/?originalSubdomain=pl https://github.com/sulco https://stackblitz.com/@sulco/collections https://twitter.com/StackBlitz https://stackblitz.com/ https://github.com/stackblitz/core https://viteconf.org/23/replay/stackblitz_keynote We want to hear from you! How did you find us? Did you see us on Twitter? In a newsletter? Or maybe we were recommended by a friend? Let us know by sending an email to our producer, Emily, at emily.kochanekketner@logrocket.com (mailto:emily.kochanekketner@logrocket.com), or tweet at us at PodRocketPod (https://twitter.com/PodRocketpod). Follow us. Get free stickers. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, fill out this form (https://podrocket.logrocket.com/get-podrocket-stickers), and we'll send you free PodRocket stickers! What does LogRocket do? LogRocket combines frontend monitoring, product analytics, and session replay to help software teams deliver the ideal product experience. Try LogRocket for free today. (https://logrocket.com/signup/?pdr) Special Guest: Tomek Sulkowski.

In this episode, Tracy Lee is joined by co-host Jessica Wilkins and guest Chris Coyier, co-founder of CodePen, a company that provides an online code editor. They discuss various topics related to web development and technology. Chris talks about his background and his work at CodePen. They are currently working on CodePen 2.0, a major update to the platform. Chris mentions that although the interface of CodePen may not have changed much over time, there's value in maintaining reliability and consistency for users. They touch upon the challenges of keeping up with the ever-evolving landscape of web technologies. Chris expresses the importance of providing an online code editor that supports various technologies and languages, allowing users to experiment without setting up complex development environments. He also acknowledges the growing trend of AI integration in coding tools. The conversation then shifts to the debate surrounding different tools, frameworks, and technologies in the web development space. Chris emphasizes the need for cohesiveness among these technologies and their documentation, allowing developers to easily combine tools without friction. He mentions other online code editors like StackBlitz and CodeSandbox and their innovations. The interview highlights the importance of community and the role it plays in the success of projects like CodePen. Chris shares his dedication to maintaining the platform and ensuring its growth and relevance while also addressing potential business challenges, such as balancing free users and paid subscribers. The discussion reflects the dynamic nature of web development and the various factors that drive innovation and growth within the industry. Hosts Tracy Lee, CEO of This Dot Labs Jessica Wilkins, Software Engineer at This Dot Labs Guest Chris Coyier, Co-Founder of CodePen Sponsored by This Dot Labs

Sylwia Vargas is a Developer Relations Lead at StackBlitz and Dominic Elm is a Founding Engineer and Team Lead at StackBlitz. They are joining us today to discuss WebContainers, the WebContainer API, what you can build with the API, and more! Links https://stackblitz.com https://twitter.com/stackblitz https://www.linkedin.com/company/stackblitz https://github.com/stackblitz/core https://discord.com/invite/stackblitz https://twitter.com/SylwiaVargas https://www.linkedin.com/in/sylwia-vargas https://github.com/sylwiavargas https://medium.com/@sylwiavargas https://tech-writer.netlify.app https://www.linkedin.com/in/dominic-elm https://github.com/d3lm https://twitter.com/elmd_ Tell us what you think of PodRocket We want to hear from you! We want to know what you love and hate about the podcast. What do you want to hear more about? Who do you want to see on the show? Our producers want to know, and if you talk with us, we'll send you a $25 gift card! If you're interested, schedule a call with us (https://podrocket.logrocket.com/contact-us) or you can email producer Kate Trahan at kate@logrocket.com (mailto:kate@logrocket.com) Follow us. Get free stickers. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, fill out this form (https://podrocket.logrocket.com/get-podrocket-stickers), and we'll send you free PodRocket stickers! What does LogRocket do? LogRocket combines frontend monitoring, product analytics, and session replay to help software teams deliver the ideal product experience. Try LogRocket for free today. (https://logrocket.com/signup/?pdr) Special Guests: Dominic Elm and Sylwia Vargas.

Sam and Ryan chat about how to avoid a flicker of content on initial render due to mismatched server/client rendering. They also chat about the pros and cons of React Hooks, and using StackBlitz containers to debug OSS issues.Topics include:0:00 – Intro1:46 – Ryan Florence's tweets about Hooks, useEffect and refs18:12 – How to avoid SSR/CSR rendering mismatches when your initial render depends on client-side APIs37:40 – Using StackBlitz for reproduction in open source45:17 – Isolated app development environments with JavaScript containersLinks:Ryan Florence's tweets on HooksDan Abramov's replyReact beta docs on bugs found from double renderingReact beta docs on bugs found from re-running EffectsStackBlitzChangelog episode with Ryan Dahl about Deno Deploy as a platform

Simon G created a hype video around Codeflow, the new tool from Stackblitz for editing source code from repositories right inside your browser. At the same time Simon B came up with an interesting revelation from his time in Bali!Links in this episode Simon B on Instagram  Simon G  Ionic Academy  Simon B  All The Code  Simon G on YouTube Simon G about Stackblitz Codeflow

StackBlitz is an online IDE where you can create Angular, React, and Vue projects quickly and easily in your browser. Tomek Sułkowski, Founding Engineer and DevRel at StackBlitz, joins us to talk about WebContainers, running Node in the browser, and more. Links https://twitter.com/sulco https://twitter.com/stackblitz https://stackblitz.com/ https://github.com/stackblitz/core https://blog.stackblitz.com/posts/introducing-collections-and-social-previews https://podrocket.logrocket.com/vite-3 https://blog.stackblitz.com/posts/announcing-viteconf Follow us. Get free stickers. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, fill out this form (https://podrocket.logrocket.com/get-podrocket-stickers), and we'll send you free PodRocket stickers! What does LogRocket do? LogRocket combines frontend monitoring, product analytics, and session replay to help software teams deliver the ideal product experience. Try LogRocket for free today. (https://logrocket.com/signup/?pdr) https://podrocket.logrocket.com/contact-us Special Guest: Tomek Sulkowski.

We check in with StackBlitz CEO, Eric Simons. StackBlitz has been furthering their mission of making a whole development environment available in the browser by building WebContainers, which allow you to run node.js natively in your browser. Join us for this exciting preview of what the web will be like in 5-10 years!https://blog.stackblitz.com/https://bytecodealliance.org/https://twitter.com/ericsimons40

Lindsay and Steve get to talk with Matias Capaletto (also known as Patak) about the explosive growth of the Vite ecosystem. They talk about how he got into Vite, and the work that's gone into making it such a compelling ecosystem for a number of frameworks. They also discuss the origins of Vitest, the first-class test runner for Vite, and Matias' recent hire by Stackblitz to work full time on Vite. Sponsors Top End Devs (https://topenddevs.com/) Coaching | Top End Devs (https://topenddevs.com/coaching) Links The Vite Ecosystem | patak (https://patak.dev/vite/ecosystem.html) Views on Vue Episode 173: Diving into StackBlitz with Eric Simons - VUE 155 (https://viewsonvue.com/173) Views on Vue: Islands Architecture in Vue with Máximo Mussini - VUE 170 (https://viewsonvue.com/islands-architecture-in-vue-with-m-ximo-mussini-vue-170) GitHub: vitejs/awesome-vite (https://github.com/vitejs/awesome-vite) GitHub: originjs/webpack-to-vite (https://github.com/originjs/webpack-to-vite) Vitest Dev (https://stackblitz.com/edit/vitest-dev-vitest-otn6s3?initialPath=__vitest__) Vitest (https://vitest.dev/) Introducing WebContainers: Run Node.js natively in your browser (https://blog.stackblitz.com/posts/introducing-webcontainers/) GitHub: patak ( patak-dev ) (https://github.com/patak-dev) Picks Lindsay- GitHub: lindsaykwardell/vite-elm-template (https://github.com/lindsaykwardell/vite-elm-template) Lindsay- Particles CSS (https://particlescss.com/) Lindsay- NoRedInk – Funding the Roc Programming Language (https://blog.noredink.com/post/676230051771138048/funding-the-roc-programming-language) Matias- Faker | Faker (https://fakerjs.dev/) Special Guest: Matias Capeletto.

Listen to the Changelog https://changelog.com/podcast/469 (40mins in)React Distros: tweet, blogTry it out: https://hydrogen.new/Transcriptwhen we looked at the available set of tools in the React ecosystem, we felt like the existing crop of frameworks, and particularly ones for commerce, don't solve the right problems, or maybe don't stack the right decisions to enable this dynamic commerce experience that we've been talking about.There's a host of really good tools for statically generated pages, but if you really wanna build a fast, server-side-rendered, React-powered experience, you have to hire some really smart people to make that work. And that gets very expensive very quickly. So most teams fail. They end up with subpar experiences, and we thought we could help. So this is why we entered into this space and said – it's not like we've invented server-side streaming.JEROD SANTORight.ILYA GRIGORIKI think I was with you guys on this show ten years ago, talking about streaming in HTTP servers.ADAM STACOVIAKYeah.ILYA GRIGORIKSo this is not new technology, but it's a new stack. It's a different stack, it's a different set of choices. So now the question is “Well, I do want to use React on the server and client. How do I do that, while still delivering a really fast server-side streaming solution that is not blocking on data requests, such that I can enable the clients to quickly render at least like a visual shell of the page, provide some loading indicators, and speak to that user experience aspect of speed, not just the technical metric of speed?” Like, did you get the fast time to first byte?JEROD SANTOYeah.ADAM STACOVIAKI can imagine us being two years down the road, having you back on, Ilya… So we're at the opening gates of a new thing for you. You've put six months into this, you've worked closely with the React core team, so you've had very knowledgeable people involved with this project on how React works. But I can just imagine, to Jerod's question, like “Why did you choose React over Vue, Svelte, and does it lock out other frameworks?”, I can imagine this as the beginning. And like any beginnings, you start from somewhere.ILYA GRIGORIKI think that's exactly right. We took a pragmatic choice. So if you look at Oxygen - as I said, it's a thing that accepts an HTTP request and spits out an HTTP response. It doesn't matter what JavaScript code runs inside. So any server-side JavaScript is fair game. On top of that we have GraphQL, which is framework-agnostic, of course… And now it's a question of “How do you make the right architecture decisions on the server? How you compose the response such that you don't end up blocking the response for too long?”[36:12] So let's say you need to fetch product data, query some product description data, maybe figure out card discounts… Can you do those things in parallel, as opposed to sequentially and blocking, and stream that such that the user has a good user experience?” So that's a set of choices that you have to make, and that's a problem that we're solving with Hydrogen.JEROD SANTOYou mentioned Next.js… Did you consider a similar approach, versus all server-side rendering, but kind of a hybrid, where they have some prerendering, they also have some server-side rendering? Or is it just caching is your answer to all prerendered pages? Like, you've got a marketing page, or your About page, and instead of prerendering it, you just cache it?ILYA GRIGORIKYeah, we actually work very closely with the Next team. They're also innovating and pushing the boundary on React Server Components. React Server Components is this new hot thing that the React core team dropped as a Christmas gift to the community last year… And everyone got super-excited, because it's this RFC, and it answers the perennial question of “How do we actually separate client and server concerns? Can we create a convention around data loading patterns?” Because right now, every React framework has to figure out “How do you do data loading?” You know, getServerSideProps vs. something else… You have to learn a new dialect every time you pick this up. React Server Components tries to answer that.And further, it adds a set of new – or opens doors to a set of new possibilities. Things like – it wasn't possible to do component-level updates before. So if you render the page, and the user is interacting with the page, and you want to reload just a sub-tree, you can hack that via various ways, but there's no well-defined convention for how the framework itself can do that. React Server Component answers that. Also, by creating this boundary between client and server allows us to build better and more optimized bundles.One of the pitfalls - pardon the tangent here - of isomorphic client-server JavaScript is, ultimately, we're building these React applications to run in the browser. So there's a set of assumptions about browser capabilities and browser APIs being available. You bring that onto the server, and you go “Well, it's not quite like the browser”, right? These APIs are not available, and now I need to figure out - if I only run this code, do I export these exports to clients as well? It becomes really muddy, really quickly. And maybe if you're super-judicious, you can navigate through that forest, but it's a very challenging problem.RSC (React Server Components) defines those boundaries, and at least on paper it promises to solve many of those things. And it's still under active development. Shopify has been one of the early adopters. We saw it, we played around with it, we tried to rebuild our own applications with that pattern, and we felt like it felt nicer than what we were using before… Because similar to any other framework, we were inventing our own data loading strategy. And then we swapped it out for RSC, and we're like – look, it's new, so there's still friction for most React developers, because, well, it's a new shape of API… But you kind of get these second-order effects; it just feels more intuitive. It's easier to grok. So even though it takes a little bit of runtime for someone new, they see the filename, and it says .server, and it kind of just clicks. It's like, “Oh, I can infer what that means.”So we have the benefit at Shopify of starting anew. We're not a framework with an existing install base of thousands of apps. We don't have to move them over into this new world, which is one of the challenges with the React Server Components, Suspense, and all the rest. If you have an existing application, a lot of these things are not easy to adopt, because they change how you have to think about data loading, different state transitions, and all the rest. For better or worse, we're starting from scratch, so we're willing to take some opinionated and future-looking bets, because we have the luxury of not breaking anything… Yet.JEROD SANTO[40:04] [laughs] Yet. You have the luxury for now.ILYA GRIGORIKExactly. So this week – this is maybe a good transition… So what have we launched this week? This week we launched the Hydrogen developer preview, which is – we're not claiming it's production-quality code. In fact, we wouldn't encourage you to write production code; you could, and nothing stops you, of course… But we wouldn't encourage that, because we wanna use the period of the next couple of months to really iterate on the APIs based on feedback from real developers, and probably break things. Right now is the time to dramatically change in backwards-incompatible ways, before we declare it to be a 1.0 that folks can build production storefronts that run on Shopify… And then we have to maintain for a while.So this is a really good time, if you're just curious about what is React Server Components, what is Suspense, how do I do server-side streaming - go kick the tires on this thing. Play around. I think we've made it really simple. For anyone listening to this, if you just type in Hydrogen.new in your browser, it will open up a StackBlitz-powered dev environment that runs completely in your browser, and you can just start hacking right away. It's a really awesome experience.

In this episode we will talk about the potential future of web development, witch could take place in the browser instead of traditional IDE app. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Watch it on YouTube: https://youtu.be/PPJQSZJyvCg --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Show notes: 00:00 - Introduction 01:31 - Topics 01:51 - What are web containers 02:56 - Node.js in the browser 03:53 - What is a IDE 04:23 - What is StackBlitz 05:05 - Properties of StackBlitz 06:10 - FRONT-END FRAMEWORKS & LIBRARIES in StackBlitz 06:47 - BACK-END in StackBlitz #webcontainers #stackblitz #WCQ --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/menyhart-b-norbert9/message

In this episode of Syntax, Scott and Wes talk with Tomek Sulkowski about web containers, StackBlitz and more! Freshbooks - Sponsor Get a 30 day free trial of Freshbooks at freshbooks.com/syntax and put SYNTAX in the “How did you hear about us?” section. LogRocket - Sponsor LogRocket lets you replay what users do on your site, helping you reproduce bugs and fix issues faster. It's an exception tracker, a session re-player and a performance monitor. Get 14 days free at logrocket.com/syntax. Linode - Sponsor Whether you're working on a personal project or managing enterprise infrastructure, you deserve simple, affordable, and accessible cloud computing solutions that allow you to take your project to the next level. Simplify your cloud infrastructure with Linode's Linux virtual machines and develop, deploy, and scale your modern applications faster and easier. Get started on Linode today with a $100 in free credit for listeners of Syntax. You can find all the details at linode.com/syntax. Linode has 11 global data centers and provides 24/7/365 human support with no tiers or hand-offs regardless of your plan size. In addition to shared and dedicated compute instances, you can use your $100 in credit on S3-compatible object storage, Managed Kubernetes, and more. Visit linode.com/syntax and click on the “Create Free Account” button to get started. Guests Tomek Sulkowski Show Notes 02:45 - What is StackBlitz? 05:28 - What makes it different? 08:20 - How does offline work? 12:18 - What are web containers? How does this fit in? 17:45 - How does this all work (WASM, Node.js in the browser, etc.)? 21:00 - What does performance look like? 31:06 - What about VS Code extensions? 32:48 - Monorepos? 35:12 - Databases? Sqlite? 35:36 - Are there any limitations? 37:02 - What is Turbo? 40:58 - How is this different from similar apps? Links https://stackblitz.com/ https://jsbin.com/?html,output https://jsfiddle.net/ https://codepen.io/ https://code.visualstudio.com/ Fugu API Tracker (fugu-tracker.web.app) https://www.docker.com/ https://spidermonkey.dev/ https://github.com/chakra-core/ChakraCore https://sli.dev/ https://vscode.dev/ https://codesandbox.io/ https://www.gitpod.io/ ××× SIIIIICK ××× PIIIICKS ××× Scott: HaloLock Universal Ring Wes: Car LED Light Upgrade Tomek: The Dresden Files Shameless Plugs Scott: Astro Course - Sign up for the year and save 25%! Wes: All Courses - Use the coupon code ‘Syntax' for $10 off! Tomek StackBlitz Tweet us your tasty treats! Scott's Instagram LevelUpTutorials Instagram Wes' Instagram Wes' Twitter Wes' Facebook Scott's Twitter Make sure to include @SyntaxFM in your tweets

Recording date: 2021-10-07John Papa @John_PapaWard Bell @WardBellDan Wahlin @DanWahlinCraig Shoemaker @craigshoemakerEric Simmons @EricSimons40Brought to you byAG GridIdeaBladeResources:StackblitzWeb AssemblyWeb Containers on StackblitzStackBlitz TurboWebpackDenoBytecode AllianceTimejumpsPodcast editing on this episode done by Chris Enns of Lemon Productions.

https://codingcat.dev/podcast/1-40-creating-code-in-your-browser-with-stackblitz 0:00 - Intro 0:15 - Live show 1:15 - Tomek intro 1:35 - Background 6:50 - Angular background 8:00 - UI 10:00 - StackBlitz site 13:30 - Demo 15:50 - Web Containers 19:19 - Terminal in the browser 25:30 - Security 29:00 - Similarities to other sandboxes 32:00 - Coding Cat on Stackblitz 38:55 - Localhost in the browser 41:15 - ESM 42:00 - Vite demo 46:30 - Final thoughts 49:38 - Purrfect Picks 49:57 - Alex - Vercel SWR (Stale While Revalidate) - [https://github.com/vercel/swr](https://github.com/vercel/swr) 57:44 - Tomek - https://vitejs.dev https://vite.new & https://vite.new/react 58:15 - Tomek - The Dresden FIles - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dre...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dre...) --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/purrfect-dev/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/purrfect-dev/support

Have you heard of Stackblitz? If not, have you ever clicked the button in the Angular docs to launch a demo of the code and you are instantly transported into an environment that is running the Angular code alongside a slick code editor that resembles VS Code? We're going to assume that you answered yes to both of these questions. If not, go check out stackblitz.com and start-up an Angular application to see just how fast and easy it is to create a demo application running in the browser. Stackblitz is building incredible tooling for developers to use in the context of the browser, and to do so, they are pushing the envelope of building a web application. So, how do they do it?In this episode of the Angular Show, we are thrilled to sit down with Eric Simons, the co-founder, and CEO of Stackblitz to discuss the future of JavaScript and to learn how the team at Stackblitz is building an OS in the browser. Crazy - we know! Join the panelists as they ask Eric just how they are going about this. As you might guess, they are leveraging web APIs that some of us have probably never touched, like WebAssembly, to accomplish this task.What is the future of JavaScript? None of us know for sure, but we can take a look at cutting-edge solutions like Stackblitz to get a glimpse into what the future might look like.Show notes:https://www.chromium.org/teams/web-capabilities-fuguhttps://stackblitz.com/v2Connect with us:Eric Simons - @ericsimons40Aaron Frost - @aaronfrostBrian F Love - @brian_loveJennifer Wadella - @likeOMGitsFEDAY

Angular is a feature-rich and opinionated framework. Opinionated, for example, in terms of fetching data via XHR. Most, and perhaps all, Angular developers reach for the HttpClientModule. Most of us don't have to even think about that decision. While the debate will likely never end over JavaScript frameworks, Angular developers may never end their debate over what forms implementation to use. Do you use reactive forms (which are arguably not really reactive) or template-driven forms? The Angular show panelists want to take you on a learning journey into the depths of this debate in a healthy, fun, and educational way.If you read the Angular documentation you might be inclined to believe that Angular's template-driven forms approach is where you start, but real Angular devs use reactive forms. I mean, the name reactive is hip. And template-driven forms, that's so AngularJS-y. Why would I want to use template-driven forms?We have the perfect guest to answer that question for you. Ward Bell, a Google Developer Expert in Angular and President/Co-Founder at IdeaBlade, has put template-driven forms through its paces for many years, and in our opinion, is one of the foremost experts on using template-driven forms in Angular. Grab your kombucha, coffee, running shoes, or really whatever you want, and join us as we learn from the master on template-driven forms. By the end of the show, you might be asking yourself why you aren't already using template-driven forms in your Angular applications.Bonus notes from Ward after the show:I talked through a couple of approaches during the show but I didn't have an actual sample to refer to... I just updated the StackBlitz sample with an example of both approaches. Color me “obsessive”.https://stackblitz.com/edit/angular-kkatri?file=src%2Fapp%2Fhero-form%2Fhero-form.component.htmlThe hero now has both a “Power” and a “Power Qualifier” (category and subcategory). Both are required. You pick a power and the list of qualifiers changes accordingly. A special “Select a power qualifier” appears until you pick a qualifier. This demonstrates the “disabled control” approach.One of the selectable powers is “Other”. It has no pre-defined qualifiers. Instead, you must enter a free-form description of the “other power”; what you enter is bound to the hero's qualifier field.When you pick “Other”, the “Power Qualifier” selector is removed from the form and a required free-form input control takes its place. This is the alternative “ngIf” approach that I mentioned.Click the “New” button to see how it works when Hero has no power.Show NotesAbstractControl: https://angular.io/api/forms/AbstractControlConnect with us:Aaron Frost - @aaronfrostJennifer Wadella - @likeOMGitsFEDAYBrian Love - @brian_loveWard Bell - @wardbell

I spoke with Eric Simons. Eric is the CEO of StackBlitz, an online browser based IDE where you can start coding on any front-end framework is seconds. I personally use it when I'm teaching full-stack development using Angular or React. Eric is a super nice and talkative guy. We discussed about his previous company Thinkster, which was acquired a few years ago and how that company give origin to StackBlitz. Eric shared with me his long term vision for StackBlitz and the kinds of hard problems they are trying to solve within his current team of about 10 people. When asked which front-end framework he would pick from Angular, React and Vue, his answer and reasoning will surprise you! Stick around to hear from the outspoken Eric Simons, CEO of StackBlitz. Enjoy the chat! Full show notes and links: https://SoloCoder.com/76

Guest Tracy Lee and the panel discuss several open source initiatives that are accessible and open to all developers.

Modern web development has a lot of cool stuff, but that cool stuff can come at a cost. Getting a development environment set up can be a task even for folks that know what they are doing. Enter StackBlitz, a way to get up and running with Angular, Ionic or React (with others on the way). This week our hosts talk to Eric Simons about the benefits of such a platform as well as some of the challenges with building it. Visit the website for This Week in Web, resources & more: https://thewebplatformpodcast.com/154-stackblitz   Follow The Web Platform podcast on Twitter for regular updates @TheWebPlatform.