Podcasts about public affairs department

In September of 1857, one of the greatest atrocities in the history of Mormonism was carried out. Now known as the Mountain Meadows Massacre, a group of Latter-day Saints led a siege in Southern Utah against a wagon train of emigrants on their way from Arkansas to California. After the siege had dragged on for several days, and under the guise of a truce, leaders of the Mormon party lured the emigrants out of their protective circle of wagons and marched them a short distance across the valley before turning on them in surprise and slaughtering at least 120 unarmed men, women, and children.The details of this evil are difficult to talk about at all — much less dive deep on — but at the same time, historians Richard E. Turley and Barbara Jones Brown believe that it's important that we confront history, even its most difficult episodes, with as much honesty and depth as we can.Rick has served in many roles at the Church over many years, including as managing director of the Family and Church History Department, and managing director of the Public Affairs Department. Barbara is the director of Signature Books Publishing and former executive director of the Mormon History Association.Together they are the authors of a new book called Vengeance is Mine: The Mountain Meadows Massacre and its Aftermath, which is the second in a two-volume series of exhaustively researched masterworks on the subject. The first book, Massacre at Mountain Meadows, on which Rick was one of the authors and Barbara was a content editor, was published in 2008, and this second volume is the culmination of over 18 years of research, writing, and editing by countless contributors. Though brilliant historians have written about the Massacre before, these books include new research from documents and records that have never before been available.As we spoke with Barbara and Rick, we were struck by not just their comprehensive knowledge of these tragic events, but by the depth of their empathy for the victims, and insights about how knowledge of difficult history can be part of a larger story of healing and reconciliation. They and many others have been important in spearheading efforts in recent years to allow for that healing, including working with the Church itself and organizations of victims' descendants.In fact, Henry B. Eyring credited the work done on the first book in 2007 in an official statement given at the site of the massacre on its sesquicentennial. As part of that statement, he said, “What was done here long ago by members of our Church represents a terrible and inexcusable departure from Christian teaching and conduct. We cannot change what happened, but we can remember and honor those who were killed here…We express profound regret for the massacre carried out in this valley 150 years ago… and for the undue and untold suffering experienced by the victims then and by their relatives to the present time."What we hope for this episode is what we think Barbara and Rick hope for their book: that it can promote the same work of at-one-ment that is at the core of the Gospel by fully acknowledging the sins of the past, actively listening and working toward healing in the present, and looking forward to a future of deep relationship and connection.

 In 2007, when I was in high school in TX I started volunteering with TACT, Teenage communication theater through Planned Parenthood North Texas. We were peer educators and advocates on sex education, birth control, healthy relationships and so many other important issues that teenagers deal with. That group ended up being my entry point into political advocacy and education and I am excited to be able to bring those together on this side of things. Even though it is under unfortunate circumstances. Governor Greg Abbott signed Senate bill 8 into law, making abortion in TX illegal after a fetal heart tone can be heard which is around 6 weeks. This is an extreme anti choice piece of legislation and is currently under review by the Supreme Court but is nonetheless law of the land in TX. I am here with Kelly Hart from Planned Parenthood of Greater TX to talk about what this law looks like in practice and who is most impacted. Kelly Hart is the Sr. Director of Public Affairs for Planned Parenthood of Greater Texas (PPGT).   PPGT's Public Affairs Department advocates for every person's right to comprehensive, confidential reproductive health care and works in cooperation with supporters to maintain and increase access to these services.  Kelly has a bachelor's degree in government from the University of Texas in Austin and a graduate degree in public health from the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health. She has been with the agency for more than 20 years, and is responsible for directing the agency's community engagement, advocacy, and volunteer programs.  Additionally, she works with the local Community Board, as well as the agency's Clergy Advisory Council.PPGT Website: www.ppgt.orgTACT Website: https://www.plannedparenthood.org/planned-parenthood-greater-texas/education-outreach/teenage-communication-theatre

From the early days of the State of Israel and even pre- State- the religious zionist community has been at the forefront of shaping the Jewish identity of the country. Much of this work was done through religious zionist parties in the knesset, going all the way back to the formation of the State when Mizrachi and Hapoel haMizrachi sat in the government, continuing through 1956 when the two parties merged to form Mafdal, the National Religious party. Throughout that time, a religious zionist party has been a partner in coalition governments for most of Israels history, placing them as an important character in the history of the State. This work continues today. The recent election of a religious Zionist, shomer shabbat Prime Minister, Naftali Bennet, is a proud milestone in this story. But the story is far from over. The Religious Zionist community continues to play a leading role in shaping the future identity of the State of Israel. Which brings us to today's conversation with Gilad Katz and a discussion of what this next stage may look like. Gilad Katz, a tzanchan paratrooper while in the IDF, spent time as an advisor and speechwriter for Bibi Netanyahu. During his tenure in the Office of the Prime Min​ister, he held prestigious titles as Head of the Hebrew Correspondence Department and the Public Affairs Department.He most recently served as the consul general of Israel to the southwest, based in Houston and responsible for all of its neighboring States. He has a background in policy, communications and education. His current project is what brings him to our podcast. Brought to you by the Religious Zionists of America-Mizrachi.

Richard E. Turley Jr. was named as the new managing director of the Public Affairs Department of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on April 26, 2016. Prior to his appointment, he served for eight years as assistant Church historian and recorder. He also served for eight years as managing director of the Family and Church […] The post FAIR Voice Podcast #31: Murder Among the Mormons with Richard Turley appeared first on FAIR.

This episode’s guest was Dr. Douglas Massey. Dr. Massey is the head of Princeton University's Sociology and Public Affairs Department. Winner of numerous awards and accolades since earning his doctorate over 40 years ago. A life long academic, Dr. Massey has authored and/or co-authored a multitude of books to include “Climbing Mt. Laurel” and “American Apartheid: The Native American Struggle for Self-Determination and Inclusion.” He has also published a plethora of scholarly essays and papers. Note: Please pardon the audio quality of this episode. Our goal is to put out a quality podcast: both in content and audio quality. We felt the content of this episode outweighed the poor audio quality. Again, we apologize and are always striving to make improvements with the show. Thank you for your time and consideration. We are elated to have your ears listening.

Richard E. Turley Jr. retired recently after nearly 30 years working for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, most of that time in the History and Family History departments. He has co-written or penned several books, including the acclaimed “Massacre at Mountain Meadows: An American Tragedy” and “Victims: The LDS Church and the Mark Hofmann Case.” Most recently, he served as the managing director of the faith’s Public Affairs Department. He reflects this week on his career, the highs, the lows, the memories and the milestones.

Robert Millet, Ph.D., is an author, speaker, and professor of ancient scripture and emeritus Dean of Religious Education at Brigham Young University. Author of 76 published works, he has been involved in BYU Education Week for many years and is well-known as a commentator on the BYUTV Scripture Discussions program. He is also Manager of Outreach and Interfaith Relations for the LDS Church’s Public Affairs Department. Brother Millet's most recent book is The Holy Spirit: His Identity, Mission and Ministry. His decision to write about this topic is related to his fascination with the work of The Holy Spirit. It is so frequently referred to and discussed, but we might not appreciate all that it is. Highlights 3:00 Strategy for covering topics: he makes a list and works on it daily, narrowing it down over a period of weeks/months to develop the book. Work on prophetic statements that relate and continue narrowing the information. Also asking “what experiences have I had with this”. He wanted to cover the topics of sons of perdition, the light of Christ, and God's power. 13:00 How, as leaders, can we have a better understanding of the Holy Spirit: having it, losing it, etc. 13:47 What does it mean to “lose the Holy Ghost”? We lose feeling, we withdraw ourselves. You can’t take a vacation from the Spirit – you can’t sit still; you either fall back or move forward 19:45 The Holy Ghost “strives with us”. It “battles with us”. There will always be an element of the Spirit to help you; you can’t “lose it”. All people can have the Spirit. They may not have the gift of the Holy Ghost that comes from baptism, but they certainly can have the Spirit and inspiration. 25:40 How do you know when a sin is forgiven? Study Mosiah 4:1-3 (joy, peace of conscience, larger measure of the Spirit). “Just don’t do things that are offending to the Spirit.” 28:40 Where is “grace” in the doctrine? The Holy Ghost is an act of God's grace to us. We can put ourselves in a position to receive that gift by our actions. “The sun doesn’t stop shining just because I put a bag over my head, it continues to shine”. It is the same with God; He loves us through everything. 32:30 Justification and Sanctification 44:10 Be cautious about “I feel impressed that…” It is good to teach what you feel, but if you announce that it came from the Spirit, it comes across as boastful. 45:35 How about church callings and the Spirit? If you pray to start a meeting and pray for the Spirit to guide decisions, you don’t need to kneel individually about all decisions. As we strive to live our lives to keep the Spirit with us, we will see that the Holy Ghost has been guiding us in all decisions and shaped our lives. Those decisions were inspired, and hopefully good judgement. We don’t need to pray over every decision. “The spirit prepares us today for decisions we have to make in the future.” 53:00 Joseph McConkie story about calling Stake Presidents: The Lord fits us to our assignments. “God honors the servant”. Difference of being called “by God” or “of God”. 55:00 Final story related again to his friend Joseph McConkie, prior to him leaving to Scotland as a Mission President. Asked him if he had read everything and felt prepared. “What do you think?” He said, “What could cause us not to worry about 63 rules? I will teach my missionaries this: never do anything that would cost you the influence of the Holy Spirit.” That is a great standard to live by. Callings in the Church are not to be superheroes but to live in the way to be directed by the Holy Spirit. It is a solemn responsibility. Mosiah 26: Alma “feared that he would not do right”. As leaders we need to strive to do that. Links The Holy Spirit: His Identity, Mission, and Ministry Grace in the Bishop’s Office | An Interview with Robert Millet Photo of Robert Millet by Richard Crookston

Listen to Imani (2020) talk about her summer internships at various nonprofit organizations. Stephanie: Hi there. You're listening to Gear Up the Duke Career Centers student produced podcasts showcasing real students summer internship experiences. My name's Stephanie Mayle. Stephanie: And today we're talking to Imani about her experience interning at nonprofits. Stephanie: OK. Can you introduce yourself? Imani: My name is Imani Hicks. I'm a senior I was going to say im a senior at Duke University. I'm a senior studying public policy, and then I'm getting two certificates, the first one human rights and the second one in Latin American studies. Stephanie: And so what have you done the past few summers? Imani: So my freshman summer, I worked in the public affairs department at like a development corporation. So they worked for a bunch of different companies, I did a lot of PR and I was just the intern there, and then the second is my sophomore summer, so I did Duke Engage in Seattle and that's nonprofit based. I worked with like a grassroots nonprofit in the city, and then last summer or this year, this past summer, I worked at a mental behavioral health nonprofit that specialized in working with urban natives. Stephanie: So you've done a lot of nonprofit? Stephanie: Yeah, that sounds like a thing. Imani: Yeah. Yeah. Stephanie: So what kind of drew you to that? Like, why did you continue doing the work? Imani: I came into Duke thinking I was gonna do econ and I realized after taking econ one to one, I didn't like that and so I started exploring my interest, and my mom's a social worker, like my grandma also worked in nonprofits pretty much all her life, did like a HR working with people and I was like, oh, that's what I really want to do, and at first I thought I'd like to do in the private sector. And so I worked with the Public Affairs Department, which is PR, and was a lot of like doing press releases and just interacting with the board, and I liked it , but then I was like, you know what? I rather just work directly, with people. I also picked up human rights as a certificate. I was like, I really want to work with helping people. That was my overall theme. Imani: So my sophomore year, I applied for Duke Engage. Got that. And then I was like deeply involved in nonprofit work and was like a grassroots organization that I want. You know, I don't really like the grassroots. It's a little bit. I'm not going to say unorganized, but it's just very on the go. On the fly and so then I worked last summer at sort of a traditional nonprofit. Stephanie: So let’s focus on last summer. Imani: So, yeah. Stephanie: What kind of role did you have specifically? Imani: So what the nonprofit is right now. So they just got a bunch of grant money and it's a bunch of clinical psychologist and they're right now working and doing research on the opioid epidemic and how it affects like urban native communities, specifically in L.A. and Minneapolis, but because we just got all this grant funding and they're sort of a newer nonprofit, they wanted to enter into kind of, it was closer to what a startup would be. It was a lot of like ground work ,and so even though technically I think my titles like Summer Intern with the focus and like mental behavioral health l, I did a little bit of everything. So it was a lot of just like creating a Facebook page to, organizing a lot of like the research, a little bit of everything I got to do stuff with like website development, which I had no idea that world existed. I knew I had too but I had, no idea about it, and just looking more like the clinical side of non-profits is really interesting. Working with all doctors because I feel like , they just approach the world differently. Stephanie: So how did you find this organization? Imani: So I'm public policy. So I need my internship and so I reached out to like people at home. It was really just putting out my feelings like even li

Host Ali Nazar interviews Shawn Lani, Director for the Exploratorium's Studio for Public Spaces, on the Bay Area institution's founding story, outreach programs, and preparations for their 50th anniversary.Transcript:Ali Nazar:You're listening to KALX Berkeley in 90.7 FM and this is Method to the Madness coming at you from the Public Affairs Department here at Calex celebrating the innovative spirit of the Bay Area. I'm your host, Ali Nassar, and today I got with me Shawn Lani, he's the Director for the Studio for Public Spaces at the Exploratorium in San Francisco. Hey, Shawn, what's going on?Shawn Lani:Hey. Nothing. Just here, jabbing this morning.Ali Nazar:Yeah, thanks for jabbing.Shawn Lani:Yeah, my pleasure.Ali Nazar:Appreciate you coming in. So we're going to talk about a few things. Exploratorium, obviously, is a beloved institution in the Bay Area, but I always ask people when we first start out about organizations like the Exploratorium, they're very unique and they start out with a kind of a problem statement in mind. What is the problem statement that Exploratorium is trying to solve?Shawn Lani:That's a good question. A lot of people think of the Exploratorium as a science museum that was formed in the way that a lot of things were formed, but the culture institutions tend to be a product of their times. They're responding to a need, and at the time, there was an educational reform movement going on in America and the 60s were happening. This is 1969, it was founded and Frank had spent many years-Ali Nazar:Frank Oppenheimer?Shawn Lani:Oh, yes. Frank Oppenheimer had spent many years as a teacher on a ranch kind of perfecting a hands-on method of learning and was convinced that people really needed a place where they can get their hands on things and figure things out for themselves. One of the things he used to do is take his kids out to a junkyard and a very non-traditional approach, take things apart, find out how they work. It was definitely a sense of the authentic was always a driving force and also a trust that people were naturally curious and could be inspired to kind of explore their own inquiry. And that turned out to be a very powerful model for teaching and learning.Ali Nazar:Yeah, and I think any of us have been to the Exploratorium totally get that feeling because that's what the place is all about. But taking just one more kind of step down memory lane, can you tell us a little bit more about Frank Oppenheimer, who he was and how he came to found the museum?Shawn Lani:Yeah. Frank Oppenheimer was Robert Oppenheimer's younger brother, he's sometimes called the Uncle of the Atomic Bomb. He worked on the Manhattan Project, and for many years after that he was ostracized from universities and ended up in a ranch in Colorado. He was a natural teacher. He was very much a humanist, and so as he spent many years out there kind of basically, surviving, he ended up coming to San Francisco. He still had a lot of contacts, a lot of people knew who Frank was and started the San Francisco Project and found the Palace of Fine Arts. He wrote up a rationale for a science museum and ended up stomping around the City Hall drumming up support for it and got a 30-year lease for a dollar a year at the Palace of Fine Arts. Ali Nazar:Wow.Shawn Lani:Yeah. That's not a bad deal.Ali Nazar:Wow, yeah, pretty good. San Francisco real estate.Shawn Lani:Yeah, exactly. Well, the funny thing is even at the time when Frank walked in that behemoth of a building, he already thought, "This isn't going to be big enough," and, in fact, we added onto that building some years later, a second floor. And then eventually, we outgrew the building altogether and moved to Pier 17 just five years ago, Pier 15, sorry, in San Francisco.Ali Nazar:Well, Great. So thank you for that story and understanding kind of where it came from. So we're almost 50 years into the Exploratorium's founding. What's the journey been like? Where are we today?Shawn Lani:Well, the Exploratorium is, I think, necessarily evolving and I think this is true of any cultural institution. They need to evolve with culture in order to respond to it and be relevant. And as we started as a science museum with exhibits that quickly grew into a explainer program that integrated teens on the floor explaining and working with visitors. We started professional development of teachers very early. We were one of the first 600 websites when that started to evolve. And so the museum's always been kind of a slowly growing institution with new feature-sets and more and more of those have become interrelated over time.And so when I think about the Exploratorium, I went there as a child, three and four years old, you kind of fall in love with the place. And even all these years later, I walk through and there's something familiar about the way that we respect humans as learners. And in everything that we do, the way that we approach the work is very much in support of somebody's own sense of wonder and inquiry and to enable people to ask questions of the world and find those questions useful and even to question the answers they get back when they ping the world. We want them to know that they are active learners, they're in control of what they understand. And so that's always kind of been a thread throughout all of our work.Ali Nazar:Yeah, and it's so fascinating to me, as I'm listening to you talk, and think about many times in this show, we have people who have started an organization six months ago or eighteen months ago. They had this dream and this vision and I've been part of founding teams too and I think one of the things that a founding team dreams of is to have something be sustainable and go on for a long time and now, we're sitting with something like that in the Exploratorium. We're almost 50 years in. How does the governance work? How do you guys keep the mission vibrant and alive and even though Dr. Oppenheimer has long since gone?Shawn Lani:Yeah, he passed in 1985. He used to say that the Exploratorium was anarchy and Frank was the anarch and there was a certain kind of a glue that he could bring just through kind of force of personality and his intellect was somebody once said, "Walking through the Exploratorium was like walking through Frank's mind," but in fact the places evolved a lot since frank has passed. And I think that was also by design because just like we've always treated visitors as part of the equation, staff has always felt like it was part of their job to generate new ideas and to figure out new ways of engaging with audiences increasingly diverse and in new ways and on subject matters that are important to them. When I first got there in '93, we were doing some work with the National Science Foundation, which is a long-term supporter.But I was kind of surprised at the number of people doing things that I didn't think at all were related to the Exploratorium. And eventually, we had a Body Show, we had shows about memory, we looked at our Light and Color and Sound exhibitions, we renamed them Seeing and Hearing, thinking more about how people are not only sensing the world but perceiving it and the acts of perception is active. You're construing, you're making sense of the world as you find it. And so reframing the world is actually a really powerful tool for allowing people to see things in a new way, and then from that moment forward, carry that with them. It's not something that happens in the museum for that moment, which is static, it's dead when you leave. You might pick up some information, but that's just information. A way of seeing the world is far more influential I think.And actually, it's far more respectful because what we don't do is say, "This is the right way to look at the world." What we do say is, "Have you thought of it this way? Have you thought about how when you look out at the Bay, say it just all looks like a bunch of water," right? But the long story behind that is where it comes from, the push and pull of the saltwater and the ecologies that live there. And once you tell that narrative, for a lot of people, I think it builds an appreciation for a way of looking at the world that's more animated. It's more animated and it's actually, it's much more fun. It's much more interesting. And so I think that's the way that we've drifted over the years as we added more and more program is how do we do that more? How do we connect with people in such a way that they feel like they're a little different from after they've brushed up against us? And likewise, I think the museum needs to feel like, "Hey, we're being changed by our visitors as well because we're in conversation."Ali Nazar:Yeah. And it's so appropriate. I think for the spirit of the Bay Area because I always think of us being kind of like the furthest on the west of the Western civilization and kind of able to question everything. That's kind of where we're at and just geographically we're the most newest of all the cities to come. And so we can kind of look back and say, "Well, should we think about it this way? Should we be thinking about it that way?" And Exploratorium really embodies that kind of spirit.Shawn Lani:Yes. It's easy to take for granted, especially if you grew up here and I know you're raising some children and once you have kids you start to realize like, "Wow, we are in the middle of so many things." We watch movies, there we are. You hear stories or you see movements come out of the Bay Area that are global. And I've been lucky enough to travel a lot because of the Exploratorium. We have a lot of global influence from the Bay Area and the Exploratorium itself. We do global consulting, we do a lot of professional development. We train over a 1,000 teachers a year. We've trained over 30,000 teachers since the inception of the Teachers Institute. And that's the kind of influence that that continues on. So those 1,000 teachers teach 15,000 students, right? There're 30,000 teachers. Think about all the kids they've reached. And all we've done is given that teacher a new tool, a way of using inquiry and informal approaches to learning about the world, and then they take it and move that forward.So that's the kind of impact I think the Exploratorium, for me, in my mind, when I think of it, I don't think of it as a place as much as a kind of movement and I think it's continuing to be a kind of movement. We occupy space in people's minds sometimes because they went there as a kid or because they bring their kids or they ... But there's something about the place that just glows, and the more we can export that glow, the better. Right?Ali Nazar:Yeah. Bottle it up.Shawn Lani:Bottle it up. Yeah. But don't commercialize it. There's that beautiful blend of sharing. It's a kind of sharing.Ali Nazar:Yeah. And the amplification effect is so much what's so special about founders in my mind is someone has this idea in their brain and if they're successful, like Dr. Oppenheimer was, look at the amplification effect and how many lives he's touched just because he pursued that thought in his brain of, "Well, people should have experiential learning."Shawn Lani:That's right.Ali Nazar:And look what's happened since 50 years later.Shawn Lani:That's right.Ali Nazar:And it's really amazing. So we're talking to Shawn Lani, he's a Director for the Studio for Public Spaces at the Exploratorium in San Francisco right here on Method to the Madness on KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM. Shawn, so let's talk a little bit about the Studio for Public Spaces. So there're lots of programs there, but before we get into that, I want to just get a little bit of your background. Tell us about yourself.Shawn Lani:Well, I grew up in the Bay Area primarily. I was born in San Leandro, lived in Oakland and so definitely a Bay Area person. I was lucky enough to spend a lot of time out on a ranch in eastern Nevada and was inspired by just the raw nature of that landscape. And, in fact, it brought a lot of that work into the Exploratorium and that way of seeing those landscapes. And I studied at Davis and really enjoyed English and art history. I studied a lot of things. And the funny thing was I wasn't a science guy. I was handy and I could fix things on the ranch, but mostly when I was supposed to be digging holes, I was staring at springs or watching birds and so it wasn't a great rancher either.So somehow I landed up, ended up at the Exploratorium. I got a Masters in Museum Education and Design at John F. Kennedy University. And I just never thought I could work in a place that wonderful. I didn't even think to apply and it popped up, but it seemed faded. I lived only three blocks away from it. I was just extremely lucky to find it and that place changes over time. We've gotten a lot bigger and its mission has shifted not unnecessarily. And I was able to slot into a place and then move through the museum and experience what the global impact is like, what it's like to work locally. And then in 2008, we opened a show at Fort Mason. It was an outdoor Exploratorium and rather than introducing phenomenon like we do in the museum, we capture it out there.We framed it and we looked at the landscape as kind of a subject matter and tried to do these conceptual framings that allowed people to see the world in a new way and was really hooked, really fascinated with the idea that you didn't have to go inside the museum to have a really poignant experience. And, in fact, I was struck by how different it was. I wouldn't say better, but having it be a part of your daily life seemed to make it much more accessible and far more interesting as a developer, as a designer because then it's like you're in the ultimate a flea market, right? Like, "What's that? How did that happen? What the?" All these questions come to mind and sometimes when you dig a little bit, you find the most amazing answers. We're curious, Pete Richards, a senior artist at the museum, he'd heard the Golden Gate Bridge moved up and down because of the heat.So we put a GPS tracker on it. We talked to Leica. We really did our research and it turns out, sure enough, it moves up and down a foot or two depending on the temperature of the day. And there's kind of a mean temperature in the middle. So we put a scope on the bridge from a mile and a half and actually, it's three miles away with a little line in the middle. And we called it a bridge thermometer if it was a hot day, the bridge would be low and it was a cold day, the bridge would be up. And it was just such a lovely kind of observation that Pete had brought along. And then we were doing evaluation later and a runner came by and she stopped and she looked at it and she took off and our evaluator chased her down and said, "Well, that's usually not a good sign if somebody just does a glancing blow."And she said, "No, I just like to see where the bridge is every day when I went by, I want to see what the bridge is doing." So it was such a wonderful thing to think of reframing that big static thing in the distance, not as kind of a thing that doesn't move, but a thing that's being responsive to temperature. When the sunrises, it takes a couple hours for the bridge to heat up and sag. So there's all these beautiful thermodynamics going on and it's that kind of animation that really caught our attention.Ali Nazar:That's super cool. I mean it reminds me of just in such a hyper-creative environment of almost in I would think like Saturday Night Live where you have all the writers around pitching ideas. There're like lots of ideas. How does it work? Because I would think that the staff there is super-creative and comes up with all sorts of interesting thoughts like that.Shawn Lani:Yeah.Ali Nazar:How does the process of getting something approved and funded go?Shawn Lani:Well, we prototype a lot and you might have an idea, but if you don't test your idea, nobody's going to believe you. And the ultimate test is how the public responds to it in the final form. And so one of the things we do, we utilize evaluation in a more formal way but also in an informal way. We tinker about, we try things. And that's true of most subject matters. Even as we move into the social sciences and thinking about stereotypes and thinking about how do you exhibitize some of those experiences? You don't really know until you go out and you try it with people. And the beautiful thing about that isn't that there again to prove or disprove what you thought was right they're most likely going to inspire you to do something that you wouldn't have otherwise thought of. That collaborative effort extends far beyond your immediate development team. I mean we might beat each other up about whether we think it's a good idea or not, but that kind of healthy criticism can only really be verified by the end-users.Ali Nazar:Sure, which is very much part of the spirit of San Francisco tech life. Lean startup and 20th-century design, hi-tech.Shawn Lani:Starting in '93 there was no tech, there was no ... I didn't have a computer on my desk. If you wanted something, you called the old guy that worked at the part shop and you told him what you needed, right. But the language started to come from tech eventually started to seep and some of it was familiar and some of it sounded kind of, I wouldn't say naive but there was the beginnings of that ... Because that kind of iterative culture, the prototyping culture takes a long time to get good at. Not 20 years, but a few years, and the lessons that tech learned sometimes it's in this much shorter cycle so they'll learn part of the lesson. But the full lesson really is, I think, it goes to the maturity of an organization and as a creative person and who's able to work with others and also listen, it's not an easy thing, but when you get it right, you understand why it works.Ali Nazar:Yeah. Well, so back to your story, so you joined in 1983. It sounds like you just lucked into the perfect job for you, which is congratulations.Shawn Lani:Yeah. Yeah.Ali Nazar:You've been there for a long time now, so that's awesome. So you're right now on this Studio for Public Spaces project. So tell us about that and how it came to be.Shawn Lani:Yeah. So as an exhibit developer, back then, you would develop exhibits for the floor for people have experiences they learn from those. It was something that you learned. It took about five or seven years I got my chops. And that project at Fort Mason was interesting because we had this kind of instrumented landscape, right? You can walk through and experience it, but what I think we missed, I found out later with subsequent projects, is that places have people in them and those people are part of that landscape. That social landscape is also the raw material of future experiences, future exhibits, you can instrument the landscape, but you can also help instrument people's behaviors and how they're moving through the world. And so after we opened Pier's 15, 17 we did the first living innovation zone on market street.And that was through the Mayor's Office of Innovation with Mayor Lee. And we worked with Neil Hrushowy over in city planning and Paul Chasan and others. And it was a remarkable experience because we put a pair of listening vessels, which are eight-foot-tall dishes done by Doug Hollis on Market Street. At the Yerba Buena Lane and nobody really knew what to expect, including us. But we had this notion that that inquiry's a natural kind of social lubricant and that there were lots of rules on Market Street. We know this, right? You don't look people in the eye, you don't talk to anybody, you don't put your bag down. It's like a human freeway. Right? So we put these listening vessel's kind of diagonal to that freeway and people really responded. I think they responded in a better way than I had even hoped.They were willing to talk to strangers. They were kind of joyous and celebratory. They would watch each other play and figure this thing out. They tried to find out where it was plugged in. So these dishes, you can whisper in these dishes and hear each other from 50 feet away very clearly. And it's also very intimate because it sounds like somebody's just in your ear because the way the sound is focused with the parabolic dishes. And so after that, the Studio for Public Spaces was founded with the goal of bringing more of these inquiry-like experiences to public spaces because the audience is vast. The impacts are amazing really in terms of how it shifts people's behavior in real-time, in real space in cities. And so since then, we've done many projects throughout the Bay Area, San Leandro. We're working on a project currently on Fulton Street between the Asian Art Museum and the library across from City Hall.And to bring this methodology work the way they explore terms work traditionally the prototyping, the integration, the respect for the learner to a public space. And I think especially with social sciences, understanding how we construe the world, what science can teach us about how we understand things and how and why we process the world. Exploring that in a public space, especially when it challenges you in Plaza and The Civic Center, it's improving. There're a lot of things going on there now, but there's also a lot of friction. It's right in the middle of it. I mean you had to put a pin in San Francisco and say, "Where's the middle of it?" It's right there. And it's a powerful medium to be in. And I'm exploring topics like how do we categorize it? Why do we so immediately categorize people? Why do we stereotype folks? What biases are driving ourselves? This is all a way of thinking about the human mind.What you know of the world is directly proportional to what you know of yourself. And to understand how we're thinking on a meta-level is incredibly empowering because it allows you not to be a victim of your own fast-twitch thinking. You can slow down and you can reconsider. You can look for the options when you look at a scene. Not only, "This is what I think about what's happening," but, "Why am I thinking that and what other alternatives might there be?" So it's been fascinating and I think also humbling to have such a dynamic mix of emotions, cultural issues, and then trying to do this place-making maneuver in the middle of a place that is kind of inherently inhospitable.Ali Nazar:We're speaking with Shawn Lani, he's the director for the Studio for Public Spaces at Exploratorium Museum in San Francisco here on Methods of the Madness on KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM. I'm your host, Ali Nassar, and Shawn, so you're talking about different projects that you might be doing in different municipalities across the Bay Area. So take me through how does that work? I mean, this sport team can't just parachute in, "Hey, we're going to do this," right. "Get out of the way."Shawn Lani:That's the worst case, man. You never go where you're not invited. That's the rule.Ali Nazar:How do you guys build these projects?Shawn Lani:Yeah. They're very complex networks of partnerships. So that city is one level, but we also have formal relationships with the Gladstone Institute, NASA, the Smithsonian, UC Davis, UCSF. We've worked on the Resilience by Design design challenge with Tom Leader through the Bay Observatory. And so those networks have been forming over the last 50 years, literally. And I think the last 30 and even 20 years, we've really accelerated that partnership. There're strategic partnerships, meaning that we have partners where we benefit from each other's expertise. And we've always brought in a lot of Ocher Fellows, which is a program where we have visiting scientists who've had Nobel laureates, we've had Poet Laureates, right? We've had MacArthur Geniuses, four or five of those coming through the program in order to do enrich the work.And I think that's the natural mode for the museum now is to have many, many receptors. Because what we can do, I think, is make some of that really important work, especially when it comes to the environment, environmental issues. We can provide a platform for people to understand that the complex issues that are going on around them, and a way of sorting through the information and figuring out what they think is important and not telling them what's important. It's not that kind of advocacy. It's advocacy for the visitor to feel like they understand what's happening. So they could make a more informed decision, which is very much about one of the tenants of Frank's founding, the Exploratorium was we need an informed citizenry to have a healthy democracy. You can't have it without that.Ali Nazar:Now, more than ever.Shawn Lani:Now, more than ever. And I think the need continues to increase. It's never gone away. And the notion of learning is what the body of work that we learn about is a bunch of facts. That's not true. It's the cultural pursuit of what we collectively value and that shifts over time. So only through partnerships and only through this way of thinking can the Exploratorium remain relevant. So with our work in the Studio for Public Spaces, we're working with urban planning. We work with the mayor's office, we worked with REC and Park, we work for the Trust for Public Land. We work with other people that are invested in public spaces. So oftentimes there're community groups, groups like Green Streets over in Buchanan Mall, Citizen Film.They're smaller nonprofits, but they play an incredibly important role as guides in how to make this work. And guess what? Mayor Lee used to say for the first [inaudible], "We're going to make this a bureaucracy-free zone, so you guys going to come in and do ... So it turns out it was actually bureaucracy-light. There was still a lot of bureaucracy.Ali Nazar:Yeah, that was aspirational.Shawn Lani:Yeah, it was aspirational, but you got to reach and it got us in, right? It got us the gig. But to be able to go through those permitting processes with DPW or with MTA and have a good working relationship and even watching those departments bend a little when they're not totally sure it's going to be okay. I think it's really a hopeful sign. I mean there are so many good smart people working in city government. I know that sounds crazy, but I am shocked at how dedicated they are and how willing they are to bend a little and to help things that might not be known as this is going to be a total success. But the way we work is two-year pilot projects very often. It's worth the risk to find out does this help? Are we prototyping a way for the city to work in the future and what can we learn from this lesson? It's heartening to see how many people will support that kind of activity.Ali Nazar:Yeah, I think so much as to do with the vision. So we had Ben Davis on the program who was the thought leader behind the Bay Light Shore Bay Bridge. He had to get a few different municipality organizations together to make that happen. But the vision was so strong and everybody loved that bridge. So they were like, "Yes." Like, "I get it, we want to do it," and I think you guys have that power too because you have a vision that people, like you said, you feel it's not just about when you're at the museum, it's about the next day or that night.Shawn Lani:Right.Ali Nazar:I feel that with my kids when we take them there because we're members of the Exploratorium and they talk about it for a few days afterwards, "Remember that thing? Remember that thing?" And it's a vision that's so powerful that I think is galvanizing for people to get behind.Shawn Lani:Yeah. I always joke, "It's almost a cheat when you come into a situation that's in a public space." The Exploratorium comes and like, "Oh, you guys are here." Oh, he's always so happy to see you. Like, who's going to fight with Exploratorium? Like, "We don't fight. We just want to come here and have some fun and talk about things," and so it really is a leg up to build on that many years of goodwill and tradition and I think that's super important. When it comes to brand value, people don't want a brand the Exploratorium has always striven or strived, striven? Stroven?Ali Nazar:Strove? [inaudible].Shawn Lani:Thank you. To be authentic, it doesn't lie to people. I mean, I remember, this is how crazy we can get. If you have a box of wires, it's always a question whether or not you could make it out of plexi or you should make it out of wood because if you can't see it, you might not trust that it's not just going through or connecting up. So oftentimes we'll reveal the back of an exhibit just so people can kind of test it. And I wish government was like that actually, that radical transparency, right? "Is it doing this?" And like, "I don't know, try it out." I mean if you can't tell, that's not a good exhibit. Right?That's not a good experience if you're wondering, you're scratching your head and wondering if somebody just put one over on you. And so we have always tried to have that kind of relationship and that really pays off when we go for partnerships. They sense that we're not going to get between what it is that they think is important and what they're trying to show and what the visitors are going to take in. We're all about facilitating that understanding.Ali Nazar:Well, it's, it's super cool work that you're doing and thanks for coming in this morning. I do want to ask you just next year's the 50th anniversary?Shawn Lani:Yeah.Ali Nazar:So it's such an amazing institution that we're all proud of in the Bay Area. What can we expect for next year to happen at Pier 15 or across the Bay Area?Shawn Lani:Well, we'll be opening the Social-Psychology show in July of 2019 and so that is going to be 12 to 14 exhibits outside Public Space Installation and that's going to be paired with a show about identity at the Exploratorium. This is a really interesting move I think for the museum to move into the social sciences because they're not traditionally easy to approach. But I think they are incredibly relevant, given the time. And so those are going to be two peak ... Now, we also have a lot of ongoing programming about the environment and ecologies. So we have conversations about landscapes, we have Lab and Lunch.We just hosted the climate summit, several talks about the climate summit, so we're going to be continuing that work moving forward. And also our After Darks, are every Thursday nights and those are heavily programmed. So we're kind of like a piece of broccoli in that way. You have the broccoli sprout but then you have a lot of other little things going on and then you have a lot of other things going on. But those are some of the big lobes but there's lots of other stuff going on as well.Ali Nazar:Okay, I'm sure everybody knows how to get ahold of the Exploratorium, so how about for the Director, for the Studio for Public Spaces? If people want to learn more about that, how would they learn more about it?Shawn Lani:Well, just type in Studio for Public Spaces at the Exploratorium, and you'll see the website that has a list of our projects and also a lot of the thinking and the framing of the work. We have some publications there as well, and an ongoing blog.Ali Nazar:Okay, well, great. Well, we've been talking to Shawn Lani this morning, the Director for the City for Public Spaces at the Exploratorium in San Francisco. Shawn, thanks for coming in.Shawn Lani:Oh, my pleasure. Thanks so much.Ali Nazar:And you've been listening to Method to the Madness on KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM, University of California, a listener-supported radio. I'm your host, Ali Nazar. Thanks for listening everybody and have a great Friday. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

It is Medicare season in Texas. If you or your loved one receives Medicare, you probably already know that new Medicare cards are being sent out. These new cards do not have your Social Security number on them. This change will help to prevent identity theft and other scams, but what else is new with Medicare? What are some helpful tips for caregivers to keep in mind as they help navigate and manage Medicare claims and plans for their loved ones? Andrew Hardwick is with the Public Affairs Department of the Social Security Administration. He joined Prepare to Care podcast host Marie-Pierre with more on Social Security, Medicare, and all available resources for caregivers.

Host Ali Nazar interviews Jason Marsh, Editor in Chief of the Greater Good Science Center, on the campus organizations work on quantifying what makes people happy.Transcript:Ali Nazar:You're listening to KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM, University of California and listener supported radio. And this is Method to the Madness coming at you from the Public Affairs Department here at CalX, exploring the innovative spirit of the Bay Area. I'm your host, Ali Nazar. Thanks for joining us today. And with me in studio I have Jason Marsh, the founding editor-in-chief of Greater Good magazine. Hey Jason, how's it going?Jason Marsh:All right, how are you? Thanks for having me.Ali Nazar:I'm good, thanks for coming in. And so, we have lots of founders on of organizations and I always asked the same question to start because you usually create something because you see like a gap. You're trying to fill something. So what's the kind of the problem statement that Greater Good is trying to solve?Jason Marsh:Sure. Well they're really to kind of at the heart of of Greater Good. And one is that there is a whole lot of great research and big ideas generated within universities like Cal, that never really see the light of day, never really make it out into the world and have an impact to improve peoples' quality of life, to improve relationships, to public policy or education. And so, Greater Good was really born to this idea that we should have a more of a bridge between science and practice. There should be ways where the fruits of research, should really make its way out to the public, to really benefit the public, improve public wellbeing really broadly and improve individual wellbeing, improved the way people relate to one another and improve institutions, like schools and workplaces and healthcare systems and and political systems as well. And really, the second animating idea behind Greater Good was that there's this fundamental misconception about human nature.There is, has been a prevailing belief that we're sort of born bad, born aggressive, born antisocial. And yet, there was this emerging body of research over time really pointing to this more positive narrative about human nature. Suggesting that actually there are really deeply rooted propensities for goodness, for altruism, for compassion. And by changing that narrative and changing what people expect humans are capable of, we can really change behavior and really change some of those institutions as well for the better. So there was really this marriage of ideas that there's a real need to get the word out about this research coming out of academia, coming out of social science, to really change people's understanding of who they are, what they're capable of and in effect, provide a huge bridge between what the scientific community was starting to understand and what the rest of the world could really benefit from.Ali Nazar:Wow. It sounds amazing and so needed in these times. And it makes me wonder about kind of the history of the science of happiness. Like that doesn't seem like a science, when you think about sciences. What is the history behind this study?Jason Marsh:Sure. So, backing up, for decades really, for much of the 20th century, a lot of psychology and other behavioral, cognitive, social sciences were really focused on the roots of pathologies. The roots of why is it that people do evil, do bad things, how to institutions become corrupt. But starting, there had been this strain of research that really toward the late nineties started to take off and focusing on, let's look not just at human pathology, let's look not just to what's wrong with people, but really try to understand what can go right and how we can actually help people have a greater sense of thriving and happiness and wellbeing, both to address some of the deficiencies that we experience and also to take certain situations where people might feel like they are just sort of getting by in life and to really infuse a greater sense of thriving, of happiness, of wellbeing, to really create in some ways a more positive ripple effect through society as a whole.And so, that there has been this growing movement, some call positive psychology, in some ways to distinguish it from other strains of psychology. Focusing really on happiness and wellbeing, and our center has in some ways built on some of that research, but we've also really drawn on work, not just on individual happiness and personal wellbeing, but really social relationships. And there's, at the same time, it's been a growing emphasis, not just on personal happiness, but on social relationships, on compassion, on altruism, really what makes people do good and what makes people feel good.Ali Nazar:So that it's a relatively new science is what you're saying.Jason Marsh:Yeah.Ali Nazar:Late nineties, so it's a 21st century type of study.Jason Marsh:Exactly. Yeah.Ali Nazar:Interesting. Okay. So before we dive further into what Greater Good does, can you tell me a little about yourself? Like how did you come to become founding editor of a magazine dedicated to this topic?Jason Marsh:Sure. Yeah. I sometimes think of myself as like the luckiest guy in Berkeley. I came out here in the early 2000s, about 2002, just at the time, the center ... At the time, the center was called the Center for the Development of Peace and Wellbeing. So it was a a real mouthful. And it was a bunch of psychology faculty who kind of knew, really broadly that they had this mission to take this new research of wellbeing, new research of compassion and generosity and help get it out to a wider audience. But they didn't quite know how to do that. They didn't have as much experience on the communication side, on the journalism side.My background's in journalism, I got connected to the faculty. They basically invited me to pitch what I would do with some kind of publication focused on this research, on these topics. I had been doing something sort of coincidentally somewhat similar type of work in Washington, DC had been editing this more political journal on civic engagement and community building. A lot of overlap and so put together kind of my dream job basically for what I would do with a a magazine along these lines that I thought would really be beneficial and really make a big public impact and really help people. And you know the team, liked the idea, we developed the first issue as a pilot and that was published in 2004, and it's kind of taken off from there.Ali Nazar:14 years later.Jason Marsh:Yeah.Ali Nazar:Still publishing, is it a monthly/quarterly, what is it?Jason Marsh:So it started off as a print magazine. It became a quarterly, 2009 we shifted to be entirely online so it's now, Greater Good magazine is now entirely online. And then, since that time as well, we've grown other programs and projects out of Greater Good. So there's still the hub, Greater Good, greatergood.berkeley.edu, is still the hub of all kinds of content, thousands of articles and videos and podcasts. But we have also an events series, a couple of online courses, host of other programs, all basically focused on the same research.Ali Nazar:Cool. Well I want to get more into kind of what you guys do and the breadth of it. Right now we're talking to Jason Marsh, he's the founding editor and chief of Greater Good magazine right here on campus at UC Berkeley. And before we get into the breadth of programs, I did want to get a little bit more into that founding story of the Greater Good center itself, because this show really focuses on this kind of spark of how do things grow from this one idea. So it sounds like you had could walked into an organization that would just kind of beginning, can you give us the history of it?Jason Marsh:Yeah, so it's a really amazing and pretty powerful story. So, there were a couple Tom and Ruth Ann Hornaday, who graduated from Berkeley in the early sixties and then sadly in the nineties lost a daughter to cancer. And they both were trying to honor her memory and spirit and also build on their great love and affinity for Cal, and came to the university and said essentially, we want to do something to foster peace and wellbeing in the world and to honor her memory and honor ... But they knew it was really the great research and great ideas coming out of Cal. And they, together with George Breslauer, who was dean of social sciences at the time, came up with an idea for a center that'd be different than a lot of other centers at Cal or beyond, that it wouldn't just be focused on research. It would really be focused on taking research conducted at Cal and even more broadly and really focusing on getting that work out to the public. So it had a wider impact on families, on schools and society at large.So there was sort of this initial brainstorming committee of a few psychology faculty at Cal. So Dacher Keltner was our founding faculty director, Steve Hinshaw and Phil and Carolyn Callan were all psychology faculty whose research in one way or another, all focused on, how do we not only address sort of what's wrong with people, but help them build really lives, positive relationships. And so, together came up with the idea of ... and I should say as well, Dacher and and Steve and Phil and Carolyn, all were committed in their own work, not just to doing really top tier research, but also really to find innovative ways to get that work out to the public and have it serve a real public benefit.So, together they came up with the idea for a center that would do that, came up with the idea for a Center for the Development of Peace and Wellbeing. Fortunately, I was able to connect with them just at that moment where they're contemplating how to really get the center out to a wider audience, get the research out to a wider audience. And I should say a few years after that, after Greater Good launched as a print magazine, we changed the name of the center to be the Greater Good Science Center, instead of the Center for the Development of Peace and Wellbeing.Ali Nazar:Yeah, Greater Good's a little catchier.Jason Marsh:A little catchier, a lot of confusion about what exactly we did. And it was also really hard and long to say.Ali Nazar:Okay. So you're ... Jason, you're someone who traffics in this knowledge of what makes people happy. So I have to ask you the question, what makes people happy?Jason Marsh:A good question. So the simple answer is strong social connections and positive relationships. There's a line from the research though, sort of with a caveat, is a line from the research saying relationships are necessary but not sufficient to happiness, right? So, if you don't have positive relationships, it's going to be really hard to find true happiness in life. And yet, it's not just about relationships itself. There could be other factors, other extenuating circumstances, other things in play that could still hinder your happiness. But the relationships are often really a foundation and key starting point.So out of that work, there's been a whole host of studies, lots of research looking at the benefits and also how do you then build successful connections? How do you build successful relationships that are so strongly linked to happiness? I should say as well, when we talk about happiness, we're not just talking about fleeting feelings of pleasure, and just feeling good. A definition that we use is, it is partly about positive emotion, but it's also about this deeper sense of purpose and meaning and satisfaction with your life, that goes beyond just moment to moment experiences of pleasure. So that's why our tagline actually for the Center is a science of a meaningful life. Right? This deeper sense of goodness or commitment to something beyond the self.Ali Nazar:It's really interesting that that's the definition as you see it, because it speaks to the interdependence that we all have on each other, as opposed to like, you know, it's a very American, I think concept to be very independent.Jason Marsh:Exactly.Ali Nazar:To not need anybody. So, it's like our society is maybe not set up to be happy in some ways if that's what you guys have found in the science.Jason Marsh:Right. Yeah, exactly. And that's, in some ways, makes the work somewhat challenging, we're running against some pretty big cultural currents. At the same time, that's what gets us up in the morning to feel like there is a need for the work, it isn't just something that people are already completely embracing, and you know that's already, totally dominant beliefs or practices in our culture there are these competing ideas. And don't get me wrong, I think there's a lot to be said obviously, for individualism and for independence, but part of our work and part of the research suggests is that it's really important to find the right balance, right? Between both pursuing your own personal goals and dreams and wellbeing and also recognizing the ways that you are also living in community. Your actions affect others and a lot of your wellbeing is both contingent on and helps to influence the wellbeing and contributions of others.Ali Nazar:So have you ... I would think in the science of happiness, there's been studies of many different cultures and like this is a social science, right?Jason Marsh:Yeah.Ali Nazar:So that's a lot of like looking at long trends and surveys and stuff like that. So what are some of the learnings that have been found from other countries that maybe aren't as individualistic capitalistic as America?Jason Marsh:Yeah, so you know, it's a great question. In the last five, 10 years or so, there's been, as the science of happiness has taken off and really gone global in a lot of ways, there has emerged a broader sense on happiness around the world. There is now a world happiness report, put out sort of in connection with the UN regularly, that often finds that the countries that are ranked the highest on measures of happiness, looking at several different factors, are the ones that have in some ways a a stronger egalitarian spirit, have a stronger sort of social democratic tradition of greater commitment to the common good and less inequality.So, a lot of those values that are more community-minded, more civically-minded, often translate into greater happiness for individuals within the country itself. Which is sort of paradoxical, right? We often think about those two things being somewhat at odd, right? Like having to sacrifice your needs for the greater good. When in fact like actually having that commitment to the greater good, having a commitment to something bigger than yourself. Having a a culture and even on government that tries to foster that greater sense of like, we're all in this together. Actually, the individuals within those societies, do better, feel better individually as well.Ali Nazar:Are there any places in the world, like if you're, you know, looking to be an expat American, you want to become a happy person, where should we go?Jason Marsh:Denmark always ranks really high. Denmark, Norway-Ali Nazar:Scandinavians.Jason Marsh:And other countries. Yeah. Costa Rica does as well actually often in a lot of those surveys.Ali Nazar:Is there a correlation between higher tax rates and happiness?Jason Marsh:That's been looked at a little bit, because [crosstalk]Ali Nazar:A little bit of theoretically that's the go for ... you're giving it to other people, right?Jason Marsh:Right, exactly. Yeah. I mean there's, that the tax rate itself hasn't, I wouldn't say it's been proven as a definite cause or clear determinant of happiness, but certainly there were a lot of other sort of correlational data, a lot of other data suggesting that there is a strong relationship. At the very least, there's evidence suggesting that inequality is bad for happiness, right? And inequality is also bad for pro social behavior as well. Pro social as supposed to antisocial behavior, right? So in situations where there are greater power imbalances, it's not just bad for the person who is on the lower end of the totem pole, but also for someone who is in a higher level of status, there's evidence suggesting that they're actually their skills at connecting with other people being more altruistic, being more compassionate, those skills are actually compromised by their elevated status. So all the kinds of skills that you need really to make the kinds of connections that are linked to happiness are impeded by elevated status.Ali Nazar:Yeah, it's really, really fascinating. We're talking to Jason Marsh, he's the founding editor-in-chief of Greater Good magazine from the Greater Good Science Center right here on campus. You're listening to Method to the Madness on KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM, I'm your host, Ali Nazar.And so, one of the founding principles of this center is to bridge the gap between academia and the real world. And so, I was looking at your guys' website, you have a lot of programs for different types of real world applications. So I'd like to dive-in a little bit about kind of how you guys are delivering on that promise of the mission. So first let's talk about parents and families, it's one of the constituencies you kind of name on your website. And I'm a member of a family and it's hard, with little kids and all that. And so happiness is a thought that comes around a lot, because like you're kind of always yelling at some little kid to do something. So what have you guys found and how do you apply research to that setting?Jason Marsh:Sure. So, I mean, one of the main things we've tried to do, really from day one, is to produce quality research-based materials, resources for parents who are often up at 2:00 AM, I've been in this case with a kid of my own, googling ways, looking for ways to be a better parent, to yell less at your kids, to be more understanding, be more patient. And so, part of our focus has been from day one, to really focus not just on common wisdom, conventional wisdom, but really what the research suggests are really effective ways to foster happiness and wellbeing within families. And also to raise kids with the kinds of skills that lead them to a sort of happy and meaningful lives. So from early-on we had produced, when we had the print magazine, a lot of articles on families and child development.We had for a number of years a really popular parenting blog called Raising Happiness by actually a Berkeley PhD, Christine Carter, who wrote a book of the same name, that also proved to be a really great resource for parents. And more recently we've actually launched a new parenting initiative, we have a great parenting director at the center, Miriam Abdula who runs a program, where she's both writing about the science of wellbeing for parents and families. And also, running a program where we give out grants, sort of modest sized grants to different community-based programs around the country that want their work to serve parents and help their kids, help parents help their kids develop the kinds of skills that we know are linked to happiness and wellbeing and leading sort of positive, meaningful lives. So providing both funding and also helping to connect those programs to researchers who can help ground their work a little bit more deeply in the research to make sure that there's a really strong scientific basis to it.Ali Nazar:Okay, cool. And tell me about some of the other programs. I saw there was a bunch of different people or constituencies that you kind of focus on, but tell me about some of the main programs right now.Jason Marsh:Yeah, so like parents, we've also focused a lot on educators over the years. Really helping people who are trying to help kids, especially both so that they can provide useful resources and tools for kids and also to serve their own wellbeing. Right? I mean, educators, there's huge demands, a lot of stressors, a lot of evidence that there's really great burnout and turnover in the profession. So we've tried to provide resources both so that teachers can better serve their students and also so they can better serve themselves and make sure that they don't burn out.So similarly, we've a whole host of resources on our website for teachers. We also for the last six years, have run a summer institute for educators. We've had teachers come from just about every state in the country, from dozens of countries around the world, to come to Berkeley for a week and get really a crash course in the science of wellbeing and explore together how they can take the science and really apply it meaningfully to their classroom.And now more recently, our education team is developing a new resource coming soon, early in 2019, really to serve as a clearing house, really the best tools, best resources, best practices and strategies, so that to make it even easier for teachers to take all this wisdom from the science and really incorporate it into their classroom, into their school, without having to add yet another thing on their agenda to make it as seamless and hopefully as painless as possible.Ali Nazar:Cool. Well it sounds like there's ... your website has a lot of tools it sounds like, for helping people to access the different programs you have. And then when I was looking through, there's a breadth of things you guys do. There's events, there's content being published and-Jason Marsh:Yep, exactly.Ali Nazar:So I did want to ask about, you talked about what makes people happy, but this science, I would think in the study of this would give you some tips on how to change someone who's not happy to become happy. Like that's the trick, right?Jason Marsh:Yeah.Ali Nazar:There's a lot of people out there who are weighted down by a lot of different stressors of all different types. So what's your recommendation? You guys have all access to all this knowledge. If there's a listener who's not happy, what should they do?Jason Marsh:Yeah, so there are ... it's been a really big question in the field, right? Because early on, focus on happiness was like, let's just figure out if we can take people who are, you know, moderately happy and try to make them happier. More recently, there's been a focus on, let's look at more at risk populations and people even who are having suicidal thoughts are at risk for depression, and see if a lot of these same strategies can be effective for them as well. And fortunately, many of them have been. There are ... should say, like offer the caveat right up front for people dealing with serious depression or serious psychiatric problems, it's still, most important for them to see a mental health professional. The tools that we offer on the site are not supposed to be a substitute for therapy say.But certainly there's a huge number of people who just feel like ... who are kind of unhappy, who are maybe struggling with maybe some symptoms of depression or just feel like they're not as satisfied with their lives they'd like to be. And so that, the research has found, successfully found that there are ways that they can actually benefit over time. One of the big focuses of that work has been on gratitude as a practice. Right? So there's been, for the last 20 years or so, a huge emerging science of gratitude. We focused on a lot, which in some ways is just really simply, recognizing and appreciating the gifts and good things in your life, that you might otherwise take for granted. Right? So they basic idea is, there are lots of positive things that might happen to us over the course of a day that we just kind of ignore or take for granted.And by training our minds over time and focusing a little bit more deliberately on some of those good things, we can gradually kind of change the narrative that we're telling ourselves about our lives and change kind of the emotional tone of our lives, so that it ceases just to be about the ways that people have taken advantage of you or been mean to you. But you start to recognize ways that people have actually gone out of their way to be kind to you and nice things that people have done for you and you see yourself differently in relation to others. You see other people differently and you see sort of human nature differently as well. So, and at the same time, you're creating more of these positive memories, right? By actually noticing and appreciating and savoring more positive experiences, you're then creating these positive memories you can return to over time as well. So it provides both these greater momentary experiences of happiness and also these greater lasting memories and lasting resonating feelings of happiness as well.Ali Nazar:It's so interesting that you say that we're speaking with Jason Marsh is a founding editor of Greater Good magazine. It's interesting that you say that because our society is moving to a place with less time and less and less time. So like you're talking about getting space to recognize positive things and have gratitude for it, but it feels like we have less and less space.Jason Marsh:Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's a huge issue and I think that's been something we focus on in the last few years, especially is the impact of new technology, especially on wellbeing, on being able to hone a lot of these skills. Because yeah, I mean gratitude, there's also a huge emerging science, which a lot of people have read about on mindfulness. A lot of it places really strong emphasis on taking moments essentially to pause and notice your surroundings. Even savor and appreciate some of the good you might pass by otherwise. And that is really at odds both with the pace of our culture, with our work lives, with technology. And so, in some ways it's a great challenge, but in some ways it's calling for the need for these practices to be as widely spread and embraced or embraced as widely as possible because there are so many other forces that are pushing in the opposite direction.Ali Nazar:Yeah, yeah, well the work is really needed. So I appreciate you coming in and telling us about it. I always end interviews Method to the Madness with the same question. This is an organization founded with a thesis to help bridge the gap between the academic research on happiness and getting it out there in the world. So, if everything went perfect five years from now, like what would the goal of Greater Good Center look like?Jason Marsh:Yeah. So if everything went well five years from now, we've been asking this question of ourselves a lot lately. I think we would see a lot of the tools and ideas we're putting out in the world, embraced not just by more individuals. Like we were really pleased to see the growth in our organization as ... in general. We-Ali Nazar:How many people work there?Jason Marsh:When we are a print magazine, let's see, we have a staff of 14 but other Grad students and faculty who are involved. When we started as a print magazine, we reached 5,000 subscribers. We now have about 600,000 unique visitors to the website each month. We have an online course that's enrolled about 600,000 students as well.Ali Nazar:Anybody can enroll?Jason Marsh:Anybody can roll. It's a free course. Anybody can access the resources on the website, they're all free. So that's all really, really gratifying to see so many individuals really hungering for and based on our own surveys and research, seemingly benefiting from those resources. However, we feel like there's still just really huge needs in organizations and institutions. In our education system, in our healthcare system, in our workplaces. And we're starting more and more to work more directly with schools and districts and companies and leaders in healthcare, and where we'd really like to go and where we'd like to see the work go is to see it embedded even more directly to inform and really influence and shape the policies and best practices within some of those major institutions that just have influence over, millions if not billions of people worldwide.Ali Nazar:Cool. Well, it's a great vision and mission. So thanks for coming in today, Jason.Jason Marsh:Thanks for having me.Ali Nazar:We've been speaking with Jason Marsh, he's a founding editor-in-chief of Greater Good magazine. And Jason, just a quick plug for people want to understand how to get involved and access these resources. Can you tell them how to do it?Jason Marsh:Yeah, thanks Ali. Best place to go is our Greater Good magazine website, that's greatergood.berkeley.edu. And best way to stay on top of what we're doing and stay in touch is to sign-up from that site for our free weekly newsletter.Ali Nazar:Okay, great. Well you heard right here, this is KALX Berkeley. I'm your host Ali Nazar and Methods to the Madness. Thanks for joining everybody, and thanks again for joining us, Jason, and everybody have a great Friday. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Robert Millet, Ph.D., is an author, speaker, and professor of ancient scripture and emeritus Dean of Religious Education at Brigham Young University. Author of 76 published works, Millet has been involved in BYU Education Week for many years and is well-known as a commentator on the BYUTV Scripture Discussions program. He is also Manager of Outreach and Interfaith Relations for the LDS Church's Public Affairs Department. Highlights 6:45 Experiences with the scripture discussion series on KBYU 10:00 Teaching and administrative experience at BYU 11:45 His experience writing 77 books 13:30 What led him to write The Atoning One and the growth of a Christ-conscious movement in the LDS Church 24:30 Teaching doctrine in Sunday School 29:00 Importance of knowledgeable teachers 31:45 Creating an environment where class members feel safe to be vulnerable 37:30 The leader’s role in correcting doctrine and creating safety at church 43:00 The Atonement and grace in the Bishop’s office 44:00 The Bishop should always be teaching kindly 45:00 The Bishop as a channel for God’s grace 53:00 Teach what the steps of repentance mean and give study assignments 55:30 Bring closure to the individual 58:15 Don’t take the fast track to repentance 1:01:30 Leadership offers the opportunity to see others as the Lord sees them Links BYUTV Scripture Discussions The Atoning One Image: LDS Living/Deseret Book

In this Dialogue podcast William MacKinnon and Richard E. Turley discuss insights from their research on the Utah War and the Mountain Meadows Massacre. From the Miller Eccles website: Rick Turley was formerly Assistant Church Historian and is currently managing director of the Public Affairs Department of the Church. Bill MacKinnon is an independent, award winning historian of the American West, who was recently president of the Mormon History Association.  THE TOPIC: Over the decades, Richard Turley and William MacKinnon have researched and written extensively about Utah’s long, contentious territorial period. They approach the subject from quite different  religious, educational, military, professional, geographical, and even generational backgrounds. Despite (or perhaps because of) such differences, these two historians are close personal friends and respectful colleagues, whose work has been enriched by the informal and stimulating exchange of discoveries and ideas over more than twenty years. Rick and Bill have often shared a platform to discuss their findings and to learn from audiences in such varied settings as the LDS stake center in Norman, Oklahoma  and  annual conferences of the Mormon History Association in many parts of the country.

Most of us know what Social Security is, and some of us may already be claiming our retirement checks. But did you know that Social Security is not just for people who are retired? How will full-time or part-time caregiving affect your own retirement benefits? Andrew Hardwick with the Public Affairs Department of the Social Security Administration answers these questions and gives us some insight on the other programs available to help family caregivers and their loved ones. Hardwick spoke on the record with our ‘Prepare to Care’ podcast host Marie-Pierre.

Host Ali Nazar interviews Rachel Taber and Doug Hewitt, founders of 1951 Coffee Company in Berkeley, which is a non-profit focused on providing job training and employment to refugees and asylees in the Bay Area.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:[inaudible], Speaker 2:you're listening to k a l x Berkeley 90.7 FM, university of California listener supported radio. And this is a method to the madness coming at you from the Public Affairs Department here at Calex celebrating the innovative spirit of the bay area. I'm your host Ali Nasar. [00:00:30] And today in studio we have with us Rachel Taber and Doug Hewitt, the cofounders of 1951 coffee company here in Berkeley. Hi Rachel. Hi Doug. Hello. Good morning. Uh, thanks for coming in. Um, and the first question I always ask founders, we've had a lot of founders on the show and we always start with the same question, which is people create organizations for usually cause they see a problem and there's something they're trying to have a vacuum they're trying to fill. So, uh, can you guys [00:01:00] explain to us what is the problem that you're trying to solve with 1951 coffee? Speaker 3:Yeah, I can get started on it. Uh, Doug and I met while working at the international rescue committee, which is a global nonprofit that does humanitarian aid internationally and also has, um, dozens of offices across the u s that help resettle refugees. And I'd always been more on the volunteer coordinating and fundraising and operations side. And Doug was more deeply involved in employment [00:01:30] and resettlement and more of the hands on service and Hawaii office together a ton. And our programs overlapped. And I think for both of us, we, we saw the Herculean effort that resettlement agencies provide and what they're aiming to help with a refugee arriving. And there's just, there's not enough service providers, there's not enough people out there helping refugees. And so when a refugee arrives on the u s the US State Department sets the program [00:02:00] and they set it that the average amount that person will get arriving in the country, it's about a thousand dollars per person to restart their life. Speaker 3:And that amount doesn't really change depending on what city you're in in the u s and as you can imagine, that is not enough. It has to be used to help someone find a new apartment to help with clothing, supplies, transportation. And it has to be some money left over for spending. And so because of how the resettlement program is set up from the u s government, it [00:02:30] makes employment the most critical piece for refugee once they arrive in the u s and that's kind of, that was the crux of where we saw a lot of the needs. Speaker 2:Yeah. So the, the u s government expects for a refugee to be economically self sufficient within six months. Uh, that's the goal. And so that challenge is one that, that we saw that there needed to be a resource in the community, uh, that could help refugees overcome some of the barriers between them and the u s Speaker 4:[00:03:00] job market. And some of the things that we had seen, um, were, you know, not having references, not having verifiable, uh, work experience. And so we began to look and see if there was a way that we could create something in the community that would be a bridge between what the refugee resettlement agencies were doing and what us employers. Uh, we're, we're looking for, uh, in staff members. And so, um, we decided to, to create 1951 coffee company to kind of be that, that bridge between those two. Yeah. That's amazing. [00:03:30] And can you tell us what is 90 51 coffee? Why was it named that? Speaker 3:Uh, Doug came up with it, so I have to give him credit. And for anyone that's worked in the refugee resettlement world, you know, the date. And so there's maybe like 0.5% of the population that understands it, but it's the year that the UN held a convention in Geneva, Switzerland with the well over, I think 140 or 50 nations. And it set forth the definition, a legal definition for refugees and a guideline for their protection. And the linchpin of [00:04:00] that convention is something called [inaudible], which means that a nation that signs on to the agreement of protecting refugees cannot send someone home if they're there seeking asylum and protection from a fear of death in their own country or persecution. And what is the definition of refugee? It is, sorry, this is, I had, I had to memorize this recently for a presentation. Um, it is someone who owing to a well founded fear of persecution based on the reasons of race, religion, nationality and membership [00:04:30] of a particular social group or political opinion is outside of his or her country. And because of such fear they are unable or unwilling to avail themselves to their home country for protection. So it's basically someone facing persecution for these reasons. Race, religion, nationality, political group, social, you know, social group and they fear persecution or death in their home country and so greatly so that they leave and they have to leave. That's part of the definition. Speaker 4:And what is the U N program? [00:05:00] Um, the, I mean I'm assuming that it's not binding. It's a set of guidelines for countries that have signed on to the charter. Is that how it works? Right, right. So initially the, um, in 1951, it was looking at what was happening with World War II and a lot of it focused mainly on, on Europe. Um, later conventions came along and then the 1967 protocols came along that ultimately expanded to a global mandate. Um, but again, it is a, an agreement that people, uh, countries have signed on to, [00:05:30] um, to participate in the, uh, protection of refugees, of people who are fleeing, um, for, for reasons, as Rachel said, for persecution, for fear of death. Um, and a way to protect people in, in dire situations. Yeah. And, um, you know, we want to talk a little bit, I mean, it's, this is a problem that the world has seen for a long time. This is, as you said, in response somewhat to World War II, but right now we're seeing one of the greatest refugee crisis in history. And so I want to get to modern day, uh, the modern [00:06:00] day problems. And what'd you guys do in solving the second? But first I always want to ask founders, cause I think there's such an interesting breed of people who, uh, put things on the line to create something. And, um, so let's hear a little bit about your guys' sells. How about you first, Rachel, how did you come to working with refugees? Speaker 3:Uh, how did I, it was a dear friend of mine that we had met doing fundraising together. Um, I started a nonprofit straight out of college and doing grant writing and social enterprise work. And my husband's Grad school pulled [00:06:30] us out to the bay area. We were in Denver at the time, uh, and we took a day to figure out where to live and we decided it was Berkeley and we've been here for a decade now. And while doing, um, fundraising and development for a nonprofit in Walnut Creek, a dear friend of mine got hired at the IRC and I had been an international affairs major in college at, at UC Boulder. And they had a great program where they would host lost boys of Sudan. Uh, which a lot of people have heard of that documentary or [inaudible] of the fact that there were [00:07:00] thousands of orphan boys because of the conflict in Sudan. Speaker 3:And so families would host them and they would do a work study program. And a lot of them studied political science or international affairs in the hopes of going back home one day and you know, being the future leaders of their country. And so that was my first exposure to it. And so there was an open position at IRC and my friends slowly, um, pulled me back in and it was a great moment to kind of get more on the front lines and reconnect with what had been my collegiate passionate. And can you tell us what, what's IRC? [00:07:30] Oh, it's the international rescue committee and they're the, are they the biggest refugee resettlement organizations in America or, I'd say they're one of the leading, there's nine a, they're called voluntary agencies that are contracted with the US State Department to conduct the refugee resettlement program. Um, and I believe they have 25 30 offices around the U S in a humongous global presence. Okay. And my favorite part of that story, one of my favorite parts took you only a day to figure out live in Berkeley's. Yeah. John. Thank you. Uh, Speaker 4:Doug, what about you? How'd [00:08:00] you get to work with refugees? Yes. So I started working with refugees actually in a very literal sense. Um, I was working at a cafe and, uh, mill valley and there was a young man who had been hired to, to work there while I was, was there and we were, they had two cash registers and we were working side by side. And um, in, in getting to know him, you know, I could just interacting with them, I, I could tell, you know, we were originally was not from the United States. And, um, one day over lunch we had a lunch break at the same time and he, [00:08:30] I just asked, you know, how did you come to the u s and he began to share with me his story about coming from Eritrea and how he fled across borders and eventually boarded a boat to try to cross the Mediterranean, his journey. Speaker 4:Um, through that, you know, while we were sitting or there in that 30 minute break, uh, in mallet mill valley just completely changed, uh, the way that I had seen the world. I had never sat and talked with someone who had been on a journey like that. Um, and hearing his firsthand account and all the he had been through. And then to see that we were both roughly the same age, [00:09:00] both of us love playing soccer. Uh, we were working in the same job. I had come to that position from very, very different, uh, situations. Um, I began, we became really good friends, uh, began to get to know his community more. Um, and at that point it really just inspired me to, to see that there was a place that I had to, to be involved there. And so I also, um, found out about the international rescue committee, one of their offices we're in, we're in Oakland. Speaker 4:And so I began the process of volunteering with them, teaching English, uh, mentoring, uh, [00:09:30] new refugees coming to the country. And then eventually, um, after spending a stent, a roasting coffee for about a year, uh, spend, uh, I began working at international rescue committee and I was really just right, kind of put down my roots. Okay, great. We're talking to Doug Hewitt and Rachel Taber, they're the co founders of 1951 coffee. It's a coffee shop and nonprofit here in Berkeley, um, that is, uh, focused on providing, um, job training and, um, like comically resettling refugees here in the bay area. [00:10:00] Um, and so I think I might have know the answer to this, but I wanted to ask it anyway just by what you just said. Doug, why coffee? So I understand why you guys are trying to create jobs for refugees, but you had to, you could create any business in the world. Speaker 4:Why'd you create a coffee business? Yeah, so I think that, um, one, Rachel and I both love coffee. Even when we were working at our previous jobs, uh, we kinda did a, an informal survey of all the coffee that was around our office. And so we kind of had our [00:10:30] all thing on our whiteboard at work. Um, but I think, you know, as we began to look at the skills that we had, um, both of us had worked in coffee before, had been in Baristas. I had roasted coffee before. Um, we knew that that was something that we could teach and train people. And we also knew from previous experience that the coffee industry here in the bay area is, is huge. Um, everything from the green coffee warehouses that are, that are in Oakland. Um, and because of those warehouses are there, there's a lot of roasters that have a presence here in this area. Speaker 4:[00:11:00] And then, you know, having a massive number of cafes, um, Berkeley is known for having the largest number of cafes per capita of anywhere in the country. Um, and so in places like San Francisco and Oakland are very similar to that. Um, and so we knew that it was an opportunity, you know, if we could help refugees enter into the coffee industry here, especially, um, it could be an opportunity for them to intern, not just into, uh, an entry level job, but something that could be an entrance into a career as well. And just [00:11:30] beyond the fact that it's not only a career economically, it is truly the best position someone can get when they arrive in the u s and I think that as we talk with people more about the challenges that are so unique and inherent to the refugee population, it just, it's, it's eye opening to a lot of people because when you come to the u s you need to find a job. And we had talked about some of the challenges earlier, Speaker 3:but it's just compounded by the fact that a refugee has this economic crisis and they arrive that that resettlement money, [00:12:00] they get get spent so quickly because it's so expensive to live here. And no matter what a person's background, we someone could have been an agriculture their entire life with a couple of years of formal education and now they're here in the u s and another person could have two PhDs and you know, fabulous, you know, high level career and they will both need to get a job within the same amount of time. And that time is so short that there's absolutely zero ability for them to wait for long hiring processes [00:12:30] to go through long job skills training programs. And so vast majority above 90% 95 a hundred percent half, they will find an entry level position. That is all they have the time for and they have the needs so immediately and we felt that there was an opportunity to help someone get a better job and not just economically and economically Baristas make sense. Speaker 3:You know, minimum wage hovers around 1250 right now, you know, it's lb increasing soon in Berkeley and other areas. But a Barista gets hired at about 13 to $15 an hour [00:13:00] so that just hands down is higher. But additionally it's a tipped position and there is a income survey by a coffee publication a few years back and San Francisco and Oakland are the first and third respective highest Barista incomes across the country and tips at around $4 per hour. And so if you're looking, and I was a credit coach that my ended my time at the IRC. And when you're looking at someone that's working, probably one and a half jobs, two jobs, making 1250 an hour versus [00:13:30] $17 an hour is huge. And that's a big difference. In addition to just the economic factor, I think something that Degen I felt very passionate is we would meet incredible people like just spirit and this drive to do something and we would find them in jobs that aren't bad. Speaker 3:I mean not bad jobs at ones that wouldn't push them to integrate in their new community. And that's a lovely thing about the coffee culture in the bay area and in the u s is that becomes your third place. That's that [00:14:00] you have your Barista, you have your drink, you know those names. And so the ability to kind of reach across the bar and create those dignified relationships both with your coworkers behind and with the people that are visiting the cafe is just a level of social integration that is not available in jobs right now. I've always found that the best ideas are ones that seem really obvious after they've been created. One more than the way you talk about it. It means a ton of sense. One thing that doesn't make sense to me is if the resettlement program, [00:14:30] I'll use $1,000 and there's this economic clock ticking. Why would any refugees come to the bay area? I mean it's so expensive. Here's what, how does that work? How do they choose the geography of the country to go to? So there, there is some level of um, study so that a refugee has and where they end up very often during the resettlement they being asked Speaker 4:questions about, you know, do you have family members already located in specific countries? Um, and then there are also, you know, different countries who accept [00:15:00] refugees for resettlement. They have different criteria, um, and they will accept different types of refugees or have priorities toward different types of refugees. Um, and so that can kind of, you know, funnel down who, who goes where. Um, ultimately, you know, there's a, a process that the resettlement agencies go through and the, the u s government goes through, they, you know, they meet together and they talk about each case and they discuss, you know, which case would be a best fit for which location. Now, if a refugee happens to have family member or friends, um, living in a specific area, [00:15:30] you know, that'll be a place where they were more than likely to end up. So very often here in the bay area, that'll, that'll be, you know, a large number of the cases. Speaker 4:They have family members or friends who have already been here, resettled and maybe in earlier resettlement, um, you know, processes or, um, maybe they came, you know, a year, six months before. Um, and then sometimes it is just a process of this seems to be the location where they could be served the best. Um, and yes, it is an expensive process to resettle people here, but you know, all the agencies [00:16:00] are looking at trying to find the best fit for the specific case. They're getting their given details on the case. Um, and they're trying to find the best location to, to help someone get, get started and you know, the bay area for, for its difficulty economically. It does provide an opportunity for people who want to live in a very diverse place to be welcomed. And I think that's, that's one aspect of socialization here. Um, and the welcome for people from very diverse backgrounds, um, kind of balances out that economic hardship in some ways. [00:16:30] Yeah, that's a really interesting point because, Speaker 2:um, of with all the politicization of this issue these days, especially from, uh, he who will not be named as our president, um, I, I wonder what would happen to refugees in parts of the country that have been kind of whipped up in this fear or against refugees, but probably have never met one and have no personal connection to them. It's almost like they would, they would do better to actually interact with the refugee [00:17:00] or someone who's not like them. But that's a lot to ask of of someone who's trying to start a new life. I mean, is there in, in deep red states, are, is IRC or other programs, are they settling refugees there or is it only in places like, like you said, Doug were, there's a little bit more of a, um, a diverse and progressive bias. So Speaker 4:refugee resettlement is taking place in about 200 cities across the country. Uh, which means inevitably it is going to be in places that, you know, some places that are very [00:17:30] supportive, some places that are not so supportive of the process. Um, and you know, refugee resettlement agencies all across the country are, you know, have that key piece in mind. You know, how do we effectively resettle people here in a way that this, you know, this larger community around, they're becoming a part of that larger community and not, you know, creating these two different within one location. Um, and so you'll see that a lot of, a lot of resettlement agencies will, will do as much as they can to kind of pound the pavement and get local buy-in, um, [00:18:00] find, you know, organization groups of people, um, to, to welcome refugees and be a part of that. Speaker 4:Welcoming process. Cause there's a very big difference when, you know, as an agency or a government entity, you come in and be like, we're going to resettle refugees in this location versus going into that community, getting buy in from the community and say, Hey, will you be a part of the welcoming process? You know, it's the same thing going into someone's home. If you just barge in the front door, it's very different than if you, you know, that person invites you into their home. And so that's a role that the refugee [00:18:30] resettlement agencies often play is working with that larger community too, to find a way for them to be involved in that welcome process. Um, and at that point, you know, you then to have, have that more buy in. Um, and I think it kind of eases that process and does create that opening year that you were talking about for people to get to know people Speaker 2:well who are, who are different from them. Yeah. It's a, it's really amazing that the work you guys do in this whole process. I'm learning a lot about this morning, we're talking to Doug Hewitt and Rachel Taber. They are the cofounders of 1951 [00:19:00] coffee company, let's say, nonprofits started here in Berkeley to help integrate refugees into the bay area. Um, so, you know, we talked a lot about the kind of a global or you know, macro issues here, but let's talk about some of the stories. I'm sure you guys have some amazing stories of people who have worked in your shop. You guys started in 2015. Is that right? Speaker 3:Well, the, we quit our jobs to find or launch 1951 in 2015 but at the cafe only opened about four months ago. And [00:19:30] serendipitously we opened three days before the first failed travel again. Uh, so the cafe arm of what we're doing is new. Prior to that, um, you know, 2015 was a lot of business planning and incorporating and curriculum development. In 2016 we started a Barista training program, which Doug teaches and facilitates. And the thought behind it was, you know, when we first we first put our stake in the ground and you know, started meeting in our, you know, small little broken folding chairs, startup office, [00:20:00] um, with the coffee shop and, and it would be not only a place to help the greater community and the refugee community intersect and allow it to be an advocacy moment and provide job opportunities. And as we started getting deeper into it, we're like, great. Speaker 3:Even if it's just the most slamming busy cafe in Berkeley, maybe out of Maxville employ 13, 15 people and each one of those souls and people are important and wonderful, but that is a smaller impact than the number of people arriving and that we were hoping to effect. [00:20:30] And so while we were waiting for the notoriously long Berkley permit process to go, uh, we started at a job turning program and there is a church in Oakland called regeneration, uh, right by lake merit. And they have a coffee shop. It's beautiful and large and they only use it on Sundays. And so they rent it to us for Monday through Friday. And we hold a two week course that provides around 40 hours of job skill training, vocational, English, customer service, US workforce, cultural orientation [00:21:00] and job placement assistance. And so we've had around 50 people graduate from that class in the last year and a half. And we have amazing employment partners including blue bottle, Starbucks, Dropbox, and some other local cafes around the bay area. Speaker 4:So I would assume that most of the people with the refugees going through your program and they're not of the double phd style. Um, is that, is that a good assumption or if you're training them to go into, sorry, be Baristas. Um, are they more of the people who didn't have [00:21:30] a profession from where they're coming from? So we've actually, we've trained, um, quite a few people. Um, we've trained people who, you know, they were, you know, had never really held a job at all before. Um, and we've trained people. We had a medical doctor go through our training. We had, um, an actor, a, I go through our training, we've had engineers go through our training. Um, so we've had the whole, the whole gamut of the varieties of different people going through our training because again, everyone who is arriving in the country, they need [00:22:00] to get a job and they need to get as soon as possible. Speaker 4:And what we are providing through that training is we can be a reference for them. We can be a local us reference that will help them get that initial job. We had a, uh, a guy that worked with us for a while at our cafe before he moved. Um, and he had gone through 15 different job interviews. He was the head of HR for a global hotel in his home country. Um, but he went through 15 different interviews here and needed to get a job very quickly. And very often the response was, it's gonna take some [00:22:30] time to go through this process or you're overqualified, sorry, this isn't going to work out. And so for him to be able to go through our training to get a job, to be able to get started for him was, was huge. Um, and so, you know, that's the situation that, you know, a lot of people are in, you know, they need something just to get moving, just to get started. And the, all the other career pieces, the longterm things will figure themselves out once they get that stabilized. And Are you guys, uh, do you have a plan to track what happens? I mean, are [00:23:00] they, are they part of like a alumni club or, Speaker 3:yeah, we know. And I think the wonderful part about the program is it's, it's two weeks and it's intense and you're there every day and you're highly caffeinated and we provide snacks and we have a, it's really fun. There's a ton of comradery. And so, you know, Justin natural black, we have a fun Facebook group and people come back to the cafe that's now open and grab a coffee and we stay in touch with most people. And you know, to start, we had to be pretty scrappy, um, because starting a nonprofit and a coffee [00:23:30] shop is hyper expensive. And I had done fundraising for a lot of my life. Um, and so that came in to help. But a lot of our foundations do want to see longitudinal outcomes. And we just are coming up at about a year and a half that the program has been running. And we are starting to see some of that. And I think one of the amazing parts of people that are coming in new to this country is, is they want stuff, they want someone to invest in them and they want to invest somewhere. And even if it is for, you know, that year or two or a couple, [00:24:00] um, they'll pop, people stick at those jobs and they love them. And like, we just had one of our early job placements with blue bottle celebrate his first year. And you know, and that's, that's just really exciting. Speaker 4:Yeah, it's a, it sounds like there's going to be lots of opportunity for you guys to have celebrate success stories and, um, and provide even maybe more services. And, um, is the idea that the curriculum that you developed could be something that would be shared across other parts of the country? [00:24:30] And is this something, is that the designs that you guys have? Yes. So we've, we've put a lot of thought into, you know, how we want to grow, you know, 1951 and we realize, you know, from having been in a network, you know, with or with refugee resettlement agencies and knowing that there are 200 cities across the country where refugees are being resettled. And knowing that coffee is something that permeates the u s life and culture. I mean, that's one of the first things we do when we wake up in the morning as find our cup of coffee. Speaker 4:And so we know that there is an opportunity for this training [00:25:00] to, to be taken and expanded into other locations. And so that's something that we're, we're actively looking for those, those partners and other locations that we can, you know, go in and help something get started. Um, that is our, that is our goal right now and we're looking, you know, actively for that. Um, and so yeah, we're, we're definitely open to that and actively pursuing it. Alright, cool. Well, I wanted to ask you guys about world refugee day that's coming up on June 20th I believe. So just in a couple of weeks. Uh, so tell us about what, what that is and what 1951 [00:25:30] doing, uh, in regards to that. Right. So, um, World Refugee Day is on, uh, June 20th. And you know, we have a variety of, uh, events that we have going on. I actually, throughout the summer, uh, one of the things we have going on right now is, uh, a travel with us campaign is actually our, um, one of our senior Baristas came up with the campaign in order to, to highlight the six different countries, uh, that we have people, um, from that work in our, our cafe. Speaker 4:And so each week, throughout the summer, they're taking a different week and they're highlighting either food [00:26:00] beverages, uh, cultural items from, from their countries. So right now, um, we have, uh, Butan as the country this week. Next week will be Burma. And then so on going through our, uh, we have our, our Instagram accounts in our Facebook accounts, we kind of have a calendar of, of all those things going on during world refugee week. Um, we're going to be involved in a few different things. We have some, some groups coming in, uh, to kind of hold some informational things so that they can learn more about refugees and having our, uh, Baristas, uh, she kind of share some of their information and stories. [00:26:30] Uh, and then we also have, um, some programs that are going gonna do kind of throughout that day, um, leading up to the evening. And so, um, yeah, you should definitely come by and check it out. Speaker 3:Yup. It's hard this year at World Refugee Day falls during Ramadan and a lot of refugees that come are Muslim. And so it is a more interesting year to have it because there's not as many, you know, activities for everyone to participate in during the day. So. Okay. Well, um, that sounds like there's lots of ways for [00:27:00] people to get involved and it sounds like, uh, the best way to get to follow you guys as social media on Instagram or Facebook. And I think, you know, we have so many people that reach out to us and say, what can we do? We want to help the situation and what and weave that. I mean once you talk to someone and explain to them who a refugee is, what they've been through and why they are here, I have yet to ever meet someone. Doesn't matter where I am in the country or where they're from that isn't like I support that and I want to help and we wanted to do is make it easier for someone to [00:27:30] feel like they could have an impact on someone's life. Speaker 3:And so by just coming in and doing your regular, no selfish but you know your regular caffeine purchase and you're actually putting money right into the pocket of refugees that are new here and a need, that sort of economic boost. And something that's been really fun for us to see now that we're running into our fifth six month of operation is our payroll is $20,000 a month and that's $20,000 of wages and health benefits and other supports that our staff get. [00:28:00] And as a nonprofit when you come in, you're buying your cup, your milk, your beans, and then you are giving money to people who want a dignified job, want respect and, and love it and want to be there. And so it's just our call to action is like, please just come grab a coffee, make us your regular caffeine fix when you're driving around and are thinking of, or where can I have that meeting? Speaker 3:It's, it's a, it's easy to do. We all buy coffee and there's parking right below the cafe, which is hard to find sometimes in the day area. The cafe [00:28:30] is at 24, 10 chatting way. Uh, so we're right across from unit three housing, uh, right next to Beverly Cleary. Um, yeah. So just a few blocks from here. Yeah. Yep. We're just about half block down from telegraph. Great. And I always close the interview with this. We've been talking to Doug Hewitt and Rachel taper. They're the cofounders of 1951 coffee company right here in Berkeley. A nonprofit that helps refugees, gets their lives started here in America. Um, I always end with this question. You guys have started this thing from scratch [00:29:00] and you're in the heat of the battle right now, getting it launched. That's always fun. Congratulations. By the way, it's not easy to get to where you've gone. Speaker 3:Um, but let's just fast forward five years from now and everything breaks perfectly for you guys. Where would 1951 coffee company B then? I think that we would, you know, as we, as we grow, um, I think that we would, we would really like to see our training program, you know, open in other cities to be able to have an access [00:29:30] and have a flow of, of refugees being trained and placed in the coffee industry and those locations. We've kind of looked at some different cities, Seattle, San Diego, uh, Dallas, Washington, D C But we're also open to Speaker 4:a lot of other places that the opportunities could, could arise. Um, I think in addition to that, being able to, you know, open, you know, one cafe in some of those, those cities as well. Um, it would be something that we would like to do in order to have a, a physical presence there as a representation to the larger business [00:30:00] community of what it can look like for refugees to be, to be working in your space. You know, we run the cafe here. Everyone who works there is a refugee and they're doing a great job. And I think that's important for the business community to see when they're looking to hire one or two or three refugees to, to be a part of their, their work. And so I think that's something we would like to do. And then just having that physical presence as, as an advocacy point. Speaker 4:Um, because you know, when someone says, you know, I want to support refugees, what do I do? They can immediately just walk into the, you know, the office of, you know, one of the resettlement agencies and be like, I'm [00:30:30] here. What do I do? Um, but with a cafe they can walk in, they can immediately purchase that cup of coffee and begin to have an impact right away, get to know the Baristas, learn about the community. And so we would like to continue to have that same impact in other places as well. Doug and I made a deal that if this goes on 10 years, we're going to get a tattoo of our 1951 logo. So that's what I look forward to seeing were tugs. Can you get us down to very practical? Well, that was Doug Hewett [00:31:00] and Rachel tape, one of the cofounders of 1951 coffee company right here in Berkeley. A two, four, four one chanting, is that right? 24, 10 24 10 chanting. And how do they find you on Instagram? Just 1951 1951 coffee, uh, on Instagram. On Facebook. Uh, and on Twitter. Alright, everybody go get your coffee from 1951 coffee. And you've been listening to method to the madness here in Kale, x, Berkeley, 90.7 FM. Have a great Friday. Everybody. 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Host Ali Nazar interviews Rabi'a Keeble, founder of Berkeley's Qal'bu Maryam, the first women led, all inclusive mosque in America.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:[inaudible]. Speaker 2:You are listening to k a l x Berkeley 90.7 FM, university of California and listener supported radio. And this is a method to the madness coming at you from the Public Affairs Department here at Calyx celebrating the innovative spirit of the bay area. [00:00:30] I'm your host, Colleen Huizar. And today in studio we have with us a special guest Rabi'a Keeble from the women's mosque here in Berkeley. Hi Robia. How are you? I'm fine, thank you. Um, and Rabiah, uh, has joined us today after launching, uh, the mosque in the last few weeks. So we're going to get into that in a little bit. But first, Ruby, I have a question for you. The same question I asked all founders of organizations. Sure. You have seen a problem [00:01:00] there. Usually people start something cause there's a vacuum or a void, right? So, um, can you explain, please tell us what's the problem that your new organization is trying to solve? Speaker 3:Wow. You know, it's a whole, uh, list of things actually, and it's not likely that Cowbell Mariam is gonna solve all of these problems, but at least we're opening up the conversation and hopefully there will [00:01:30] be a robust sort of conversation that continues on this topic. But some of the things that I, I believe have been issues for me personally, uh, and my journey as a Muslim since I converted, uh, 15 years ago is, is mainly accessibility. Um, I never could figure out, now I, I know the [inaudible] very well [inaudible] to death and all this, [00:02:00] but I never could figure out why women had to sit behind men if they were allowed in the same space at all. Second of all, why women were using separate entrances sometimes, uh, separate buildings, sometimes, uh, not allowed at all to attend a mosque. But the places that I've [00:02:30] been to right here in Berkeley, right here in the bay area, we still have mosques that do this. Speaker 3:And I was like, I was not entirely a mosque copper. I did settle in at one mosque where I, I stayed there for some time, but there were times when I was invited other places and I was surprised. I was really surprised. You know, it's a lack of accessibility to the mom, uh, to facilities. Uh, quite often [00:03:00] you'd go to these women's areas and they were not clean, uh, distress looking. Um, many of them were just very cutoff. Uh, one place was just a room, a separate room, no plasma TV screen, no projection. It was just a separate room. And I, I recall asking someone like, well how do you know what the mom is saying? How do you know when this is happening or that is happening? [00:03:30] And I was actually told by one of the sisters that, well, you know, we don't really need to know. Speaker 3:You know, and I think over time, perhaps not intentionally, you collect all of these things, you know, and it gets to the point where you even have a lot of questions and where do you go to have your questions answered? The most that I attended the women's sat behind the men, but there was [00:04:00] still an acknowledgement that we were separate. Um, but often the men would talk to the mom, they would ask questions, there would be conversations going back and forth, and the women are all the way in the back. And it's like, what if I have a question? What if there's something that's nagging and I want to ask him about it? I can't just chat him up like these guys are chatting them up. I have to sit back here and then I have to wait [00:04:30] until June was over and I have to plow through all the men who are trying to get at him. Speaker 3:And that means I don't get an opportunity. So I saw it also as just an issue of accessibility. Um, there's also, I think a problem when you separate men and women that men lose an opportunity to know women better, to actually learn from women. Um, [00:05:00] you know, there's like sort of ships in the night, you know, if you even say some lady come to her brother's like, what did you just say? Oh, you know, we're just exchanging a greeting brothers. Nothing more than that, you know, but even that is sometimes chancy. So how do we establish, how do we establish like a normalized kind of, uh, of interactions and normalized kind of relationship with our brothers is, [00:05:30] you know, a lot of people say, well, why do you want to kick me to the curb? Or You mad at men? This is not being mad at men. Speaker 3:This the same join us, but let's get together in a different way. Let's be allies, let's be friends. Let's, let's, let's ignore all these odd little things that are traditional things for sure. Uh, that you can't talk to a woman in lunch. This your, you know, like what's going to happen [00:06:00] if you do that or, uh, I think maybe it was the chronicle article where they talked to any mom in Santa Clara, like about men praying, potentially praying behind a woman. And I think is the answer was, well, you can do it, but I don't want to see the repercussions. I was like, holy macro, what, what repercussions are we talking about here? Speaker 2:Well, there's so many different interpretations of all scripture, and I think, [00:06:30] you know, uh, enlightened Muslim men argue that something like the hijab is the first responsibility is on the man to avert his temptation and desire. There's lots of different ways to look at things. I think that the, uh, that a mom, you know, who knows where he's coming from, but, uh, no. Uh, but, you know, I think I want to follow up on that question is, is a beautiful statement of the problem statement you're trying to solve is, I think what I think I'm hearing you say is that the moss [00:07:00] that you're starting in Berkeley is to rethink that relationship between men and women and have them on an equal playing field in the eyes of cod and in front of an a mom so that everybody can pursue mama and Mama. Is that, what, is it the feminine of your mom? Okay. So I'm to everybody can be an equal footing to pursue their spiritual enlightenment. Um, but before we get further into the vision and how this is going, tell us a little bit about you. How did you, uh, arrive to Islam and, and [00:07:30] you know, what was your journey to, to this religion? That's pretty complicated. Speaker 3:Try and kind of like reduce it into a digestible portion. Um, I was some nominally race as a Christian. Uh, my family was not very religious, although we, you know, grew up with a lot of religion around us. We didn't belong to a church, uh, but I absorbed a lot [00:08:00] of the, uh, Christian, you know, lifestyle knowledge ethics because we were surrounded with it. Um, I would say that, uh, I was always interested in scripture even at a very young age. Uh, I was always very interested in knowing more. I wanted to know God, I really, I wrote really recall being very young and wanting to know who god was. And [00:08:30] I really thought that I could find it in the Bible and I would read the Bible and read the Bible and read the Bible. And I actually at a very young age, knew the Bible incredibly well. Speaker 3:I could quote it. Um, but that was my, you know, that was my initial journey. And I think like a lot of young people, you know, you wonder off the path, you start exploring life in different ways and is not a big deal for, for most, you know, college kids and whatever. They're not [00:09:00] thinking about that. They're thinking of other stuff. And so I think I was like any other adolescent or teenager, I sort of didn't care. And, um, there came a point in my life when I was looking for something healing another path, I don't know. And I actually came across a flyer at Berkeley Library, the main library that said Sufi healing. And I was like, hmm, I don't even know what Sufi [00:09:30] is. I don't, I wonder what this is. I had time, so I said, I'm going to check it out. And I came up on campus and, um, I went to this gathering and even though I was not really sure what was happening, I really loved the people I was around. Speaker 3:I had never been around people who were so welcoming, so kind. And it appeared so forgiving and loving. They weren't [00:10:00] afraid to show love and to pull me in and to, and to, you know, acknowledge my humanity. Does that make sense? And to treat me honestly and fairly, even though I was asking stupid questions, which I was asking a lot of at the time. And eventually, um, you know, exposure to Sufism absolutely exposes you to Islam because [00:10:30] who FISM is Islam, excuse me, can no for coal. And, um, with the exposure to Islam through Sufism, I sort of, it felt like something had opened up to me, you know, really beautiful. It was like, it was very unusual. It was like, what is this wonderful thing? Speaker 3:[00:11:00] And so, you know, many people see Islam and Sufism as separate and it's just not so, and, um, I think if you're really a lover, as Sophie's would say, of the beloved, it makes you want to dig deeper and to Islam, you know, to find the roots of this, how these people, whoever they were, were able to tap into this [00:11:30] very unique and wonderful way of expressing their worship in their love of God. Um, I didn't know until later that in some places Sufism was looked down upon. Um, and I didn't understand it. I never could understand it. Uh, I would hear things like dance that's wrong. They use music that's around the men and women dance [00:12:00] together. That's even more how wrong. It's like Akash you know, what kind of existence is that? Where are you doing is looking for things to yell? Ha. Rahmat yeah. Which is unfortunately Speaker 2:very much so much part of the Muslim world these days is that's how they operate is as a judgment. And, you know, uh, you know, I'm a Muslim myself. Um, it's a tragedy to see the characterization [00:12:30] of the religion that's happening in popular culture today because it's the antithesis of what you're talking about. It's not the love base of my tradition that I grew up in was very much similar to, you know, looking at, uh, the, the world who wondrous eyes, who the love the beloved spirit. Um, as opposed to this, uh, the absolute opposite, the negativity of like, you're doing this wrong. You're doing this wrong, which turns people off their religion Speaker 3:turns to people. It just, it's, it's, it's kind of a weird paradox. [00:13:00] You would think it would turn people off and you think it would push women back and make them like what really, you know, think a little bit [inaudible] you see just the opposite. You see these women that are so willing to be controlled, so willingly following even very mistaken and misguided people in a lot of cases, not all [00:13:30] shakes, any moms are misguided, but in a lot of cases they are. And I'm just so shocked sometimes when women act so afraid or they will come to me and they'll will say, well sister, what makes you think that it's okay to pray with men or for women to lead prayer? I said the Quran, have you read it? You know, and they're always, you know, like very suspicious. Like really? But the Koran says that, you know, [00:14:00] a great, the great majority of people that I talk to have never read the crown for themselves. Speaker 3:They've always had someone tell them what's in it. Interesting. And their spin on it as a matter of fact. And so this is one of the biggest problems I think that we run into as Muslims, is that it's always like, I feel like there is this desire to spin things to [00:14:30] maintain control rather than to educate rather than to elevate. I had this conversation with someone, I forget who, and he was insisting that a man could not marry a divorcee. Right. And I was thinking to myself, I said, but where's that in the car? I don't know if a woman's divorce, she can't marry her. Well, I'm sorry, but what some Kadesia [00:15:00] I divorce a problem. Speaker 2:[inaudible] married a divorce woman. Speaker 3:I divorced one man, you know rom you. Yeah. Ridiculous. There's so many people [inaudible] women who don't know that. Yeah. They don't know that he hadn't like up to nine wives in his lifetime. Maybe more. And a few of them were widows or divorcees. So, you know, I think [00:15:30] it's becoming very clear that education is such a huge, huge part of this and women necessarily have to start educating women and men because we're not as tied to status quo as men are. I think men feel like they have to carry this. They have to continue with it. They they, they have to do this thing with this, but it's like, okay, [00:16:00] you know, after, while don't you understand that this is something you can share, that it's okay to talk to a knowledgeable, educated sister or maybe one who isn't but has good questions in that you can sit and talk and not worry about who's married and who's wearing hijab and who's this and that and the other thing and just work on that. Because we're in a, we're in a situation here in America [00:16:30] all over the world where the world thinks of us, Hispanic people, they think of us as terrorists. They think of us as people who want to destroy their comforts and to change how I had someone, some woman asked me, she goes, well, I just don't want to have any Shiria law. I said, are you Muslim? No, I am not. I said, you don't have to worry about because it's not for you. It's for [00:17:00] Muslims. Speaker 2:Yeah. Wow. That's a talking point of the right. I mean it's, this is scare tactic, but we're talking to Rabiah Keel. She's a Kibo, she's the founder of, uh, Kaaboo. Mariam is how you pronounce it. Um, it's a, a brand new moths here in Berkeley, California. Um, and it is the, um, first mosque in the nation that is led by women that it's all inclusive. So it's, uh, open to men and women, but led [00:17:30] by women right here in our fair town of Berkeley, California. Thanks for joining us. Rubia um, Ga, Berkeley. I want to ask you about, um, you know, you're an innovator and it's not always, this is, this show is about innovation. Okay. And it's not always, um, easy innovate in the business world. I talk to a lot of people, it's kind of put up on a pedestal because you know, people love this term, especially in the bay area to disrupt and has startups, but you're innovating [00:18:00] in a place that people don't always love religion. Speaker 2:Right? You know, people have their dog Ma and you're talking about men who have trouble seeing, um, why there's problems. Cause it's kind of always been this way. And in my experience with religion, people rely on their tradition. That's one of the comforts of religion. Sure. It's always been this way. Doesn't change. Absolutely. So I want to ask you about that leap that you've taken of how you saw the problem and said, you know, why are the sisters behind the brothers? Why can't they talk [00:18:30] to the mom? So you decided to do something about it. And I'm fascinated by this and people who take this jump from seeing a problem to actually doing something about it. Can you explain to us what, what spurred that notion in you that you need to do something about this? Speaker 3:Well, I didn't think I needed to do something about it. I felt like somebody needed to do something about it. And I waited. I actually waited and I would, [00:19:00] you know, I also tried to be the obedient Muslima. I really did. I was, you know, I'd sit and watch stuff go down and not say anything because I was afraid of backbiting and I did all of that stuff. And you know, uh, yeah. I mean, but I waited, you know, I was patient with it. And honestly I believe that it's kind of a divine [00:19:30] intervention. I don't, I don't think by myself that I would have done this because I would've been afraid. But I think that God has basically been with me throughout this. I've, I felt it, I felt led. Um, the way things were sort of falling into place was just unbelievable. And the support, um, I'm sure there's elements [00:20:00] in the Muslim community that wanted me to fail. Speaker 3:I have no doubt about it. There are people in the Muslim community that see me as an upstart and troublemaker and all that. I get that, um, because I also address very powerfully racism and all those other things that we don't ever want to talk about. Polite Muslims, don't want to talk about it. But that's sad. I don't think it was me. [00:20:30] I think it was God, I think this will, it will be successful or fail based on God's timing, not mine. Um, I decided from the beginning to step out of it to not have my and cage tenant and I, there's been times, there was a reporter from mouches Sarah last week and she was insisting, she says, well, I cannot film, [00:21:00] there's no men here. There's only women here. Speaker 4:Okay, Speaker 3:how is this inclusive if there's no men here? I said, because I don't hire people. It's like any other mosque. Whoever wants to come, comes, whoever does, I want to go and they don't come. So I said, I'm sorry, I can't help you. She says, okay, I'll come next week and can, can you get some brothers, call some brothers and tell us. I was like, so [00:21:30] la. Anyway. Speaker 2:[inaudible] well, um, let me ask you about, um, a more general question for our listeners. Probably most of them are not Muslims that don't understand the importance of the mosque to Muslim life. And, um, and, and we're speaking with, uh, Rabi'a Keeble. She's the founder of called Marianna Hae, a woman's Moss. All inclusive. Mazda started here in Berkeley, uh, in April, I think is when, is that when you launched the official list? Yeah. So just last month, right here in Berkeley. [00:22:00] Um, so can you tell us a little bit about what is the importance of the mosque and why is it so important to have one that, uh, matches the kind of ethos you're talking about? Speaker 4:Well, Speaker 3:I don't know exactly what you want me to say here, but, um, the way I see a mosque and having been exposed to Christian Christianity and the way Christians to things, especially Black Christians and [00:22:30] Black Christian women, for me a place of worship is part of my life as a woman. I didn't see myself excluded because in Christianity, the type that I grew up with, southern Baptist women were not excluded. Women were leaders. So oftentimes pastors are doing very important things. So coming into Islam, I didn't leave that behind. [00:23:00] That's part of me where if I'm in a worship situation, I'm looking for female leadership as well as male. Right. Um, I believe that mosque are community oriented mainly, uh, in the west. It can't really be that way because we don't have neighborhoods around, you know, people will drive an hour to get to the mosque or [00:23:30] whatever. You don't just walk over and it's not the center of the village or the city or whatever. But I believe the intention is it was that, and it was the place where you would go to hear the news, to hear announcements, um, to hear the word, to heal, hear inspiration, um, to ask questions, whatever, you know, it was in that gathering space. Speaker 3:Was it original? The question is, [00:24:00] was it originally conceived of as a place where men and women attended jointly? Uh, no, probably not because that was not the culture of the time. Speaker 2:No. Bar Arabia in the 600 Speaker 3:does very, very, very gender, you know, uh, specific about things. You know, only women did these things. Only men did these things and blah, blah, blah. You know, the whole thing. So I [00:24:30] think that this was seen as a male space, but that was because that was what it was like an Arabian, the seventh century. Yeah. Very divided, very, very, uh, you know, assignments, uh, for gender that which informed I think other things. But, um, now in the 21st century here in America, how does that model work for us? And I would say it doesn't work so well. Yeah. It's not the reality [00:25:00] of our everyday life as it was then. We go to work, we mix, we go to the store, we stand behind or in front of somebody who's of the opposite gender. Um, we drive down the street, we go to the gas state, whatever. Everything that we do. It's mixed. It's mixed. Yup. Speaker 2:So I think what I'm hearing you say is the importance of the mosque is to reflect the society [00:25:30] that we live in, to build a community of, of worshipers, of Islamic worshipers, but reflective of more of our times. Yeah. And, and which is, I think the problem you're trying to solve, which is so appropriate. It is an innovation that's needed and the bravery that you're showing to stand up and, and do it is really amazing and inspiring. So thank you so much trivia. I really appreciate you coming here. I wanted to ask you one last question. Um, you've created, you're creating [00:26:00] a space, right? And what struck me, I went to one of your launch events was the diversity of people that were there. Yeah. Um, so can you tell me maybe one or two stories of your favorite things that have happened so far? Surprises to you cause you're creating a space of worship for people to come and express. Yeah. Things that maybe they haven't been able to express anywhere else. Cause you've created this safe, wonderful, diverse space. Yeah. Well what's, what's happened to you so far that you've been like, wow, that was, that was amazing. Speaker 3:[00:26:30] I tell you the whole time I've been like, wow, yeah, I fully expect it that nobody would show up. I fully, I did. I fully expected that, you know, the word would get out over there. Don't do that because me as doing whatever it is, but it didn't turn out that way because God is guiding this. And, um, I think one of the most powerful things, it wasn't a big thing. There was a, uh, a brother who [00:27:00] came to one of the Joomla's and, uh, I had done the call to prayer, I had called [inaudible] and I had never done it before my life, but you know, that tells you something, right? That I was exposed to it enough that I knew it. Yeah. Speaker 2:And Juma, for those who don't know is the Friday prayer is the Sabbath of, of uh, Muslim. Speaker 3:Alright. [inaudible] and this brother said to me, one thing that we're doing, uh, is that after Solat, [00:27:30] instead of everybody bolting, leaving, I ask questions. I say, do you have questions? I want you to talk about what's on your heart. I want you to ask questions. And, um, this brother raised his hand and he said, you know, I really like this because I want my wife to be with me in worship. I want her in the kid sitting next to me. [00:28:00] I had never thought of that. I really had never thought that that might be something that's very supportive and comforting for man is to have his wife next to him. And it really touched me. Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a beautiful story. I'll share with you what really inspired me. Plus as someone who's a Muslim but also loves music. Um, when I went to one of your launch events, um, you had a convert who got up there and talked about how she had missed gospel music [00:28:30] from when she was growing up as a Christian. And so she decided to incorporate gospel music into Islam and then did an Islamic prayer in a gospel way. She just blew my mind and my wife and I look at each other like, this is the place for us. This is amazing. Although we don't do that in Juma. We don't do that. Yeah. I mean that was, uh, that was the initial launch, but it was, I think, part of the spirit, which is that you're creating a safe place for people to express themselves and in Islam [00:29:00] that hasn't been easy to do in my lifetime. Um, so it's, it's amazing, amazing innovation. This, this store, this, this show is about innovation. And, uh, I especially like having spiritual, uh, people on the show to talk about. They're helping to forge new paths in the bay area. So we've been speaking with, uh, Robbia Keeble. She is the founder of Kobu. Maryam is a women's all inclusive mosque here in Berkeley. Just started Rubia [00:29:30] if people want to get involved, they want to attend a service. If they want to join the congregation, how can they do that? Speaker 3:They can do that by Friday, Fridays at 1230 [inaudible] at two, four, four one cod avenue at the Graduate Theological Union star King School of the ministry, which is only a block or two from UC Berkeley. Um, you can join us and, um, the doors are open. Please join us. So 1230 on Friday Friday's [00:30:00] graduate theological union, Starr King School, the ministry to four four oh one, La Conte. Great. Thank you so much for coming in today. Thank you for having me. They come slow on. Best of luck. Okay. Listening to method to the madness on KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM. I'm here. I was telling the czar, have a great Friday. Everybody. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Hilary Abell, co-founder of Oakland based startup Project Equity, talks about her organization's mission to help small business owners secure their company's future by transferring ownership to the employees.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:You're listening to cake, a l x Berkeley 90.7 Fam, university of California listener supported radio. And this is method to the madness coming at you from the Public Affairs Department here at Calyx celebrating the innovative spirit of the bay area. I'm your host Ali Nasar. And today we have Hillary [00:00:30] at bell with us. Hi Hillary. How are you? Hi Lee. I'm doing great. And Hillary is the cofounder of project equity. Um, it's a a, is it a startup or as relatively Speaker 2:we are a startup. We'll have our third anniversary and a couple of weeks. Speaker 1:Third Anniversary. Yeah, based in Oakland. That's right. And a really interesting idea we want to get into. And every, uh, cofounder I have on the show, Hillary, I usually start by asking, uh, the same question, which is, uh, you're someone who started an organization from scratch [00:01:00] because you saw an issue. So can you give us the problem statement? What is project equity trying to solve? Speaker 2:We're aiming to address the growing income and wealth gap between the rich and the poor across this country in particular starting in the bay area and in other regions where we're already working. I personally have been working with employee ownership and worker cooperatives for the last 13 years intensively. And, and going back further than that, and I know from my own experience that there are powerful [00:01:30] force for improving job quality and building wealth for low wage workers. And my co founder Alison Lin gain has decades of experience in larger scale social ventures for profit and nonprofit. And we share this passion for addressing the wealth gap, the racial wealth gap and income inequality. And when we realize that my experience in worker cooperative development and employee ownership and her experience with larger scale social ventures, we're a perfect combination. We decided to launch something new to take on this problem. Speaker 1:Okay. Well it's a really fascinating [00:02:00] idea. I'm really excited that you're here today. Really speaks to me. And before we get into kind of what it, what project we does and what a work we're cooperative is. Can you, uh, just give us a little bit about your background. How did you and your journey come to looking at and saw seeing this problem that you want to solve? Speaker 2:Sure. So, so I started out right after college as a teacher in the inner city and that wasn't something I was able to do for a long time. I wasn't great at classroom management, but I did get to see urban poverty up close, get to see the resilience and the amazing [00:02:30] kids that were in those communities. Um, so that was one of my first, um, influences on why I care about this problem. I then worked for a worker owned company called equal exchange. And I got into that not because I was interested in business to be honest. I wanted to be on the front lines of social change. But I came to equal exchange through some community organizing I had been doing in relation to the wars in Central America. And when the war in El Salvador ended, um, equal exchange approached me and others at organization I was working for [00:03:00] at the time about using coffee and fair trade coffee in particular to help promote peace in El Salvador after the war. Speaker 2:And so through that and through the fair trade mission, I got into using business as a tool for social change. And I was in my sort of mid twenties and learned how to be a salesperson, something I never thought I would do. I learned how to work with farmer partners in Latin America who were organized in cooperatives and also got elected to the board of directors of that growing company of equal exchange as a worker [00:03:30] owner. So I also experienced incredible learning. I got to sit next to leaders of larger scale, socially responsible companies on that board and learn about business and how business can be a force for good. So that opened my perspective and helped me see how cooperatives can change the world. And from there I did a bunch of work in the nonprofit sector related to fair trade and other international issues and then found myself working with a local organization in Oakland called wages. Speaker 2:And we were building cooperatives and work around businesses [00:04:00] from the ground up here in the bay area. And that's, I was there for eight years and we saw incredible impact from the work we were doing. We built five eco-friendly home cleaning businesses that were owned by about a hundred immigrant women from Mexico and Central America. Wow. How cool. It was really exciting and I saw an incredible change from the time I started there in 2003 to when I left in 2011 when I first got there, we were doing an impact study that one of our foundation funders had helped us set up and we found that one of the cooperatives [00:04:30] was experiencing 40% increases in household income among their members. Wow. And that was very inspiring. That really mattered Speaker 1:to cut the middleman basically. Like they, they were getting all the income straight to them, Speaker 2:the workers. That's right. And they also built and owned together an infrastructure that would support them growing the company and working full time instead of working part time. Okay. So it was a combination of sort of better hourly pay and full time work and stability instead of just kind of casual variable schedules. And then they [00:05:00] got health insurance as well. And so that inspired us to try to scale up that model. We built a larger cooperative business in Oakland that eventually got to have 35 women [inaudible] owning it and then built a new one in San Francisco as well. And through the one in Oakland, we saw that eventually their household incomes were increasing by 80% wow. So went from 40 to 80 and the good trend. Yeah. Yeah. That was a great, it was a great trend and not all employee on businesses will have, you know, that degree of increase in, in [00:05:30] household income. But in general they do create better quality jobs. And so when I saw that [inaudible] I just knew that I wanted to do more of it and wanted to make the business model of employee ownership more accessible to to more low wage workers. Speaker 1:Yeah. What a, what a fascinating journey that you've been on. And thanks for sharing. Uh, we're talking to Hillary Ebell. She's a cofounder of project equity here on method to the madness on KLX Berkeley. Um, and before we go further into what project equity [00:06:00] does, I'd love to just take a step back and have you define for us what is a worker owned cooperative Speaker 2:project? Equity works with employee on businesses in different forms. And the one that we've started with and work most closely with is the worker owned cooperative. The definition of a Co op is a business that's owned and controlled by its members. So in the case of an employee owned cooperative, it's the people who work there who own the business and control it democratically by having the majority of seats on [00:06:30] the board of directors. So that's kind of the fundamental definition. There are actually seven cooperative principles that govern consumer cooperatives, farmer cooperatives, credit unions, and other kinds of cooperatives that are actually much more prevalent than worker owned cooperatives in this country. So there are seven common principles Speaker 1:and what, what is the, is there a governing body for cooperators? What are those seven principles? Who, who owns those? Speaker 2:There's something called the international cooperative alliance, which is global and does have kind of regional networks [00:07:00] through different parts of the world and has, you know, subsets for the different types of cooperatives. Um, and then there's also the model of employee stock ownership plans, also known as Aesop's, which is a u s specific model that is more commonly practiced than worker cooperatives. And we also see that as having a great role to play in this movement. And it's something that we're looking forward to working with directly as well. Speaker 1:So, um, let's talk a little bit more about the aim of project equity. Um, so you've given us some generalities around, um, your background and, and, uh, [00:07:30] the power that you've seen of unlocking business for, for, uh, for good. But it seems when I was doing some research on your company or your organization, you guys are, um, really focused on transferring, uh, companies and who are currently owned by an owner and a different ownership structure and, uh, having them go through a transition as opposed to starting something from scratch. That's right. You tell, tell me more about why that's the strategy you guys pursued. Speaker 2:That was a very explicit decision [00:08:00] for us in our first year. Um, 2014, we were fortunate enough to have a grant that allowed us to research different pathways to scale as we like to refer to them. So we looked at doing scale oriented startups and we looked at converting successful existing businesses to employee ownership. And we did choose the ladder. We were one of the first movers and an early champion of this strategy, which is actually now, um, being, uh, uh, uptaken has been taken up by, um, actors around the country and we're part of a national [00:08:30] collaborative and a growing movement that's supporting transitioning successful businesses. And there's two reasons that project equity saw this opportunity. One is that demographically the huge shift that we're going through as a country and as a world actually with baby boomer retirements is incredibly significant. We tend to hear a lot about it in terms of the impact on health care and the impact on social security and things like that. It also is already having a big impact on our small business community, about [00:09:00] 50% actually a little bit more nationally of privately held businesses are owned by baby boomers here in the bay area. Project equity has just done some original research that we released back in February that shows that 45% of privately held businesses that employ people in the bay area are owned by baby boomers. 45% 45% Speaker 1:present of, of jobs. Overall jobs are small businesses that provide jobs, Speaker 2:small businesses that provide jobs. Okay. That's right. And it's actually 63,600 [00:09:30] businesses in the nine bay area counties. Wow. And it accounts for about 626,000 employees and almost 150 billion in total sales. 626,000 Speaker 1:employees and there's about six or 7 million people in the bay area. That's right. So 10% of the area is employed by baby boomer businesses that are, that are going to end at some point unless they figure out what to do. Speaker 2:Absolutely. So, so we've been [00:10:00] asking ourselves the question and asking dozens, hundreds of other people this question for the last two years, what's going to happen to these businesses? So it's been known for some time. The SBA actually did a study back in 2004 that showed that only 15% of family owned businesses will pass on to the next generation. And it goes down to about 5% when you go to the third generation. So this classic concept that we have of a business being handed on to a son or a daughter just isn't happening for the vast majority of businesses. So what happened? Speaker 1:It's to them [00:10:30] first. It's only 15% goes to the first or second generation. The other 85% do they die? What happened? Speaker 2:Yes. Um, they, many of them do die. And that's what we're concerned about is there a lot of really healthy, vibrant businesses that contribute so much to our local economies and to the unique nature of our communities that that could actually close. Um, and many are closing already. We're hearing about it every day in the bay area. Um, some many will also get bought out and often that'll be by a large corporation or by an out-of-state buyer and out of area buyer. And usually when there is [00:11:00] an acquisition like that, there's a lot of change that happens. So some people will get jobs in the parent company, but there are always a lot of layoffs and sometimes the companies are even shut down. And you know, just the parts are the like you're like, you would take parts of an old car, you know, they'll take the assets of the business and the client list, but not maintain the role in the community. Sure. Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, we're talking to Hillary Ebell. She's the, uh, Co founder of project equity, a startup based in Oakland that is helping companies transform themselves to uh, uh, [00:11:30] an employee owned cooperatives. Um, so I wanted to ask you about something I like to ask a lot of entrepreneurs like yourself. Um, once you had the idea, it sounds like you have a lot of experience that's led you to see this problem and really and passion around solving a major kind of social issue that we have. Um, but there's a big leap between seeing the issue and then actually starting something. So can you [00:12:00] take us through that process of how you had the spark of like, I got this idea, you and your partner, but then how did you actually get this thing off the ground? You mentioned a grant, like how did you get to that point? Speaker 2:Yeah. Um, so Alison Lynn gain and I spent probably two years meeting weekly or biweekly developing the idea, thinking about who we wanted to talk to about it, where we could potentially get some funding to get going, what we would want the program to look like, what we would actually do, how we would contribute to scale, which really was our [00:12:30] guiding guiding principle. The reason to do something together was this combination of scale and the value of employee ownership and really trying to scale that up for the benefit of, of low wage workers. So we spent a couple of years meeting casually and planning and there were two things that helped us turn it into something that we could pay ourselves a little bit to do and really start focusing our time on. One was that we had a first investors, so there's nothing like a seed investor. Um, my can again of give something back office products, which is an Oakland based, [00:13:00] um, national company, one of the original certified B Corp's and socially responsible businesses. Speaker 2:I'm sure in the country. We buy all our products from them and my work, they're terrific. They're a great company and Mike is a real visionary, has been involved in workforce development locally and also in, in socially responsible business. And we knew Mike and we sat down with him one day and told him what we wanted to do and asked if he would support us with a seed grant. And when he said yes, that was a big boost to our confidence and to our, just our gut [00:13:30] sense that this was something that others were gonna want to support. And then there was a unique program called one bay area. Uh, it was, and they had an economic prosperity pilot program that they did, um, back in 2014 and to be honest, we got very lucky because this was a very unique grant opportunity, one time only as part of this five year initiative called Plan Bay area. Speaker 2:And as a startup, we never would've been able to get it, but we were able to partner with an established organization, [00:14:00] the East Bay Community Law Center and with another partner called the sustainable economies law center. And we designed a program to start, um, an initial community-based training program for worker cooperatives that we called the worker co-op academy. And then also to do research on strategies for scale. So when I talk about Alison and I having looked really closely at what industries we would work in, what would it take to do larger scale startups versus this conversion strategy that grant funded us to do that research. [00:14:30] And when we looked at the conversion strategy, we found that there was a lot of interest. There was a lot of curiosity among business owners. We had a lot of conversations, did some focus groups, and we also did some research on companies that had between 20 and 200 employees in Oakland in particular. And found that there were a handful of industries where there were a good number of, at that size, employing the workforce that we wanted to support. Um, so we could see that there were a lot of opportunities even just in the city of Oakland for businesses that would [00:15:00] potentially benefit from employee ownership. Speaker 1:[inaudible] well, so it sounds like it was a very measured kind of process. Right. We're definitely the sort of, um, logical types of entrepreneurs. And I know a lot of people just go more by Guy, but yeah. Yeah, we got very lucky with that first name later. That's not your style. Not as much as most entrepreneurs. Well, um, you know, one thing I wanted to ask you about, which is, so why I'm very passionate about the topic is I believe in a very, I think it's a very American concept of [00:15:30] ownership and the power of ownership. And I think that's one of the central thesis that you're, uh, basing your organization on. So tell, tell me a little bit about your take on how important ownership is for workers. Speaker 2:It's a game changing concept. Um, and I can talk first maybe from my own experience. I mentioned that when I went to work at equal exchange as a 22 or 23 year old, I wasn't interested in business. It wasn't [00:16:00] anything that was on my mind. Um, and I didn't think of myself as entrepreneurial in any way, but when I got inside of this business that was co owned by all of the worker owners, I started to be able to, to build muscles and get exposed to business concepts and um, business experiences that inspired me and that built my skills. And then getting to work on strategy and financial management and analysis and things like that by being on the board and not just being a front line sales and producer relations person, which [00:16:30] was my day job. Um, I got very passionate about it and learn so much. Speaker 2:So I saw the, how one can build skills through shared ownership and at that time I never would have started something. Um, and in fact, in, in my previous role at wages, I was, was part of the startup team for the two worker cooperatives that we started during my time there. But until project equity never started something on my own. And of course I didn't do it on my own. It was having a great co-founder that I think has been a secret to success for us. And actually for most startups they say that [00:17:00] it's much better to co-found than to found on your own. Yeah. Um, so, so that was my own experience that through shared ownership I was able to become an entrepreneur and I do see that with low wage workers as well. So if you think of, um, women from Mexico and Central America that I worked with in the green home cleaning businesses, uh, this woman named Clementine F for example, who when she started with the cooperative, she was working two jobs and was having to have her older son feed her other three kids, [00:17:30] you know, hamburgers that she would pick up at McDonald's before she ran off to the second job. Speaker 2:Just a very, very hard life. She was a single mom and when the cooperative got going, she was able to leave one of those jobs, go full time with the co op and eventually it became just a really awesome skilled, cleaner using green techniques, very cutting edge. At the time, this was in the mid 1990s, there were green cleaning companies. Um, and then she got trained to, to train other women and served on the board of the cooperative and had that sense of ownership. She, she actually shared literally in the ownership [00:18:00] financially, but she also developed that sense of ownership and leadership roles through being a co owner of a business. So that's another example and I do see it even with the companies that we're working with right now. So for example, there's a pizzeria in San Jose with 33 workers that is about to complete their transition to become a worker cooperative. Speaker 2:We've been working with them for a year and we work most closely with a core team of the two owners and five of the employees who will become co-owners. And as we've taught them about how to read financial statements, [00:18:30] how to understand the finances of this actual business that many of them have been working in for five or 10 years, believe it or not, in a high turnover industry. So this is a company that is much beloved by its employees already, but they go that extra step of taking that ownership perspective. And the owner, Kirk Vartan has actually told us that his conversations with as employees, he's always gotten their input on hiring for example. And he's found that people are starting to have a different conversation with him when we asked when he asked for that input. So they'll say, you know, [00:19:00] this person seems really cool, nice person. But when I think like an owner, I'm not sure I would hire them to work here for x and y reason. So already we're seeing, they haven't even become a cooperative yet, but already that sense of ownership is coming in. Yeah. Speaker 1:Which creates value for the company because people care more. So that's a great example is if you hire the wrong person, it sets a company back in so many different ways. So if you have the actual employees care about who you're hiring because they feel like it's going to hurt their pocketbook, [00:19:30] then it's a very powerful motivating force to do good for the company. Yeah. Um, so you know, we're talking to Hillary Bell. She is the cofounder of project equity, a startup based in Oakland, and it helps companies transition, um, to being worker owned. Tell us, talk a little bit about the actual process of transition. What does, what does that mean? What, how does it work and where do they, where does point a, where are they start or when did they end up at point B? What, what, what changes [inaudible] Speaker 2:it's a really interesting process. I'm, I'm finding [00:20:00] it fascinating and really exciting to, to work on multiple layers with these companies. The first thing we do with a company is to help them assess the, the fit for their company of employee ownership and also what kind of employee ownership. So would a employee on cooperative be the best fit for them? Would an aesop be a better fit? And the way that we look at that is, is through conversation of course, primarily with the owners and also through financial analysis. So we'll, we'll look at the numbers. We'll look at the expected future cash flow of the business. And [00:20:30] we always get asked how can the workers afford to buy the business that they work in. And most of them can't, especially since we focus on on low and moderate wage workers, what happens, many of these transactions have been financed primarily by debt and there are a number of other as well creative forms of equity that can be used. And in fact project equity, we'll be publishing next month a an investor's guide to worker cooperatives. So how can impact investors, for example, play a role in [00:21:00] helping companies transition to become employee owned? Speaker 1:Interesting. A lot. Why? Where does the deck, who would loan the workers that the, the money to buy the company? Is there a community banks or something like that? Speaker 2:It is mostly community development, financial institutions or CDFIs at this point. And there are handful of them around the country that are actually focused on cooperative businesses. So they are the ones, some of them are national, so they're the ones that are stepping up to do some of these early deals and have done the historic deals. So historically [00:21:30] about 40% of today's worker cooperatives were created through the conversion of a successful existing business. But until the last couple of years, there has never been a proactive initiative to encourage and support these transitions. So right now it is these CDFIs that are supporting the Tra the conversions. We have done a lot of work and in fact published a FAQ, if you will, for lenders about this. It's available on project equity's website and we've talked to a lot of community banks as well as more [00:22:00] mainstream banks in the bay area and around the country who are interested in this and trying to figure out how they can make it work. So there's some immediate barriers that they come up against. But some of that is just perception. So education can go a long way and somebody is thinking maybe a little bit differently about underwriting, although of course the businesses would have to meet the normal criteria for being able to pay back loans. Speaker 1:Part of the, the kind of value proposition of project equity is to have the know how but also bring the capital to the table for the right deal. Speaker 2:Absolutely. Yeah. We're not ourselves a capital [00:22:30] provider at this point, but we do have partnerships with capital providers. So that is something that we do bring. Um, and once the feasibility has been established then there is a deeper conversation with some of the employees to just to see if there is a there, there on the other side. Once the owners have said, we think we'd like to do this, then we'll help them gauge the interest among the employees. And if that's a go ahead, we'll bring them formerly in as a longer term project equity client and work with them to create a roadmap for the transition. And that has several layers to it. So first there is that [00:23:00] financial layer and that involves, we know that it's feasible, but what do we think the right prices for the business? Well, we'll recommend an outside formal evaluation that doesn't always happen, but it can be a helpful ingredient in the process, will help the owners. And the employees make an agreement about the price and help them structure the deal. So will it be seller financed at all? Will it be outside finance? Will there be any equity? How much will worker owners put in and how much of that is up front versus paid over time? Speaker 1:Is it, uh, is there a, uh, stipulation [00:23:30] that there must be a majority transfer of, of shares or are you doing somewhere the workers get a minority of ownership and the the owners actually retained control? Like is that a cause it sounds like for you, for this to work they have to have board seats and they have to really have a lot of control in some ways. Is that, is there a percentage that makes, makes it work or is it doesn't matter? Yeah, Speaker 2:we, we support the kind of standard definition of a worker. Unemploy on cooperative would have the majority [00:24:00] of board seats filled by worker owners. Um, but we're also very supportive of phased transitions. Right now. The ones that we're working on are there actually seller financed so that the transition formerly happens in one moment in time. But the, the debt is paid off over about five years. Okay. So the owner, we're right at the point where we're designing in the transitional control and figuring out exactly what that might look like. Okay. But with the owners staying in, in these particular cases, they do play a role that's sort [00:24:30] of akin to a general manager. So they still have a very strong leadership role while they, you know, start to work with a board of directors and, and share, share the um, governance level decision making. Speaker 1:What an exciting project. I'm so thrilled to hear about what you're doing and excited to see what kind of things you guys do. You know, we talked a lot about the, um, the workers and their motivations, but let's talk about the owners for a second. And you know, when I was reading your website, a lot of it is geared towards the owners as you're trying to convince them. And it sounds like you've [00:25:00] got a lot of great owners who want to do the right thing and that's why they're doing it. And the word that Kinda came up for me was legacy. That seems to be like the overarching reason. Why is that? Would you say that that's accurate? Speaker 2:That's exactly the word I would choose and I'm delighted that that's what came across to you because that is our goal with a website is to communicate that that owners who are concerned about their legacy and want to leave a legacy should really consider employee ownership. We had an interesting experience when we did that focus group in Oakland back in 2014 with local business owners and we started [00:25:30] by talking to them about employee ownership and asking what they knew about it, if they'd heard of any employee owned companies, what their impressions were, and then we transitioned to them what they wanted when they left their business or when they retired. And that was when the conversation started to click cause what they said was we want our customers to be taken care of. We want our employees to be taken care of. We want our business to live on this thing that we've put our blood, sweat and tears over years into creating. Speaker 2:We want it to continue to be an important presence in the community. And those three things [00:26:00] are things that employee ownership is uniquely positioned to do. So it is really all about legacy and we think that the companies that we're working with right now are kind of the cutting edge. Maybe you could call it for up from our purposes, the low hanging fruit, the sort of first movers and what we're working towards for the future is getting in conversation with the more mainstream business sellers. And they don't have to be, have any particular attitude for this to be a fit. They don't have to be staying in, they could be leaving, [00:26:30] but if they are concerned about leaving a strong company for the future and their legacy, it could very well be a good fit. Speaker 1:Well I wanted to ask you about, um, like one of the big buzz words around the bay area is liquidity. You know, start companies to get rid of the company a lot of times to sell it or go public and lose control. And is that concept exists and once you've converted over to becoming a worker owned cooperative is how you get money from your equity. Basically just distributions of the profits. [00:27:00] And there's, there's really never a big check that comes from selling it. Speaker 2:That is generally true with worker cooperatives. Um, Aesop's can be different. Um, so ESOPs are created initially with evaluation and then evaluation is done every year and they're owned through a trust. Employees on stock through a trust. And that trust does appreciate or depreciate according to the valuation every year and employees retirement accounts, you know, go up if the company valuation goes up. Um, Speaker 1:and there's a set valuation methodology [00:27:30] every year. That's how, yes. Okay. Yeah. That would take a big controversial how, how'd that happened? Speaker 2:Absolutely. It's a key factor. Yeah. Yeah. And in worker cooperatives, it's a, it's a little bit different in that the cooperative businesses are generally built for longevity. So often there is a provision in the bylaws of the cooperative that would incentivize at staying as a cooperative and not de mu de mutualizing, if you will. So if you go to a place like northern Italy or Spain where the Mondo Ground Cooperative Corporation is the largest worker cooperative in the world [00:28:00] with 100,000, um, workers, you'll, you'll find that they, the workers there will talk about their, um, the next generation in their family working in this company and seeing it as, as part of the community, part of the economy for the longterm. So in, in general, most cooperatives look to maintain being a cooperative in the future and are not valued based on a share price. Yeah, Speaker 1:it's really, it's really great work. A really excited, like I said, to see where you guys go. I always asked, uh, we're talking to Hillary of Bell, she's a cofounder of project equity here [00:28:30] on methods of the Madison KLX Berkeley. And I always, this is my last question. I always ask an entrepreneur like yourself, so you started this journey, you created this thing out of scratch. You have a lot of passion for it. You see a problem in society, you're trying to solve really important one. Um, if everything goes right for you five years from now, what will project equity look like? Speaker 2:I'm looking forward to seeing us with an expanded team. I don't think project equity itself will ever get huge, but maybe we'll be a team of 10 [00:29:00] or 20 people and being a thriving part of an ecosystem in the bay area and in maybe five or 10 other regions around the country where we have a project equity sister organization or a branch of project equity that is doing the same kind of place based employee ownership scaling that we're piloting here in the bay area. And we're also getting started in the twin cities in western North Carolina this year. And I hope that we'll have really strong relationships with everyone from the city economic development [00:29:30] officials to the wealth advisors, to the business brokers, to the boutique investment banks. Um, so that everybody in those regions will have seen enough about employee Speaker 1:ownership have, it will become normalized as an idea and we'll be talking to the businesses that they provide services to. You know, whether you're a CPA or a lawyer or whatever it may be about this business model. Great. Well, good luck on that vision. It sounds like you're on a good path to, to realizing that. [00:30:00] Um, we've been talking to Hillary Bell, she's the Cofounder Project Equity Hillary. How do people get in touch with you guys or learn more if they want to get in contact? Um, please visit our website. It's project hyphen equity.org and um, you can contact us@infoatprojecthyphenequity.org. We would love to hear from you. Great. Okay, well thanks everybody for listening today. This has been method to the madness on KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM. I'm your host is our, thanks for tuning in. Thanks Hillary for joining and have [00:30:30] a great Friday. Everybody. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Explains the founding and mission of the interdisciplinary Berkeley Food InstituteTRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:You're listening to KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM. And this is method to the madness coming at you from the Public Affairs Department here at Calex celebrating the innovative spirit of the bay area. I'm your host Ali Nasar and today we have Anne threat with us. Hi Anne. How are you? I'm great, thank you. And she is the executive director of the Berkeley Food Institute. A really interesting organization here on campus or really happy to have your insight, have her here with us in studio. Um, so again, you know, we have a lot of, uh, founders and new organizations [00:00:30] on to talk about, um, their, um, problem that we're trying to solve. So that's the first question I always ask is why was this organization created and what's the problem statement of you're trying to solve? Well, thank you very much for having me. And yes, I'm, the Berkeley Food Institute was formed purposefully with the intention of addressing some of the very large challenges in society that have to do with food and agriculture systems. Speaker 1:So it's not purely foods specific, but also the way our food is produced all the way from farm [00:01:00] to fork. And you're probably aware that there are a lot of environmental concerns as well as social concerns about the current food system that are really contributing to some major problems for society. Um, those include, um, issues of climate change, uh, toxic chemical exposure and the environmental side on things like soil erosion, uh, water depletion. So those are really large environmental challengers. And there's also, there are also very large challenges in terms of the social issues. Um, both, [00:01:30] uh, food insecurity. And um, also on the flip side, obesity are major public health issues. Um, and very often actually food security insecurity goes hand in hand with obesity curiously enough. So those are just some of the major problems. Um, we also have major problems with farm worker exposure to pesticides, um, and inequitable systems of payment of wages in, in the food system, which is very clearly illustrated both in the farm work in agriculture, but also in restaurants. Speaker 1:[00:02:00] So those are just some of the many, uh, array of problems that we're facing in society that really cross cut a hole. Um, you know, just many different topics. And the, the fortunate thing is that at Berkeley we had many different people working on these issues, but they're often in different departments in different disciplines and not always collaborating together. So the Berkeley Food Institute was founded about three years ago with the idea of bringing many people together to solve these very difficult [00:02:30] questions and to come up with innovative solutions, which brings this issue of innovation and finding entrepreneurial and unique policy ways to, you know, and also, um, scientific elements together to solve complex problems so that, um, yeah, the, the institute was brought together about three years ago with the involvement of the College of natural resources as well as the Goldman School of public policy. And then we also got on board the School of journalism with Pollan who was very [00:03:00] involved from the beginning and the school of law and school public health, which has become increasingly involved and very actively involved. Speaker 1:So they're really, we have the fortune of getting people from multiple disciplines. There's also the college of environmental design has many people working on food and agriculture issues. We also have people in, in letters and sciences. So it really brings together people. It's food has really become a catalyst to generate lots of, lots of concern. And there are many, many students as well as faculty members [00:03:30] interested in the topic. Oh, how amazing. I mean, there's so many different people involved. And to create an umbrella organization in, in a, um, on a campus that's so high caliber with so many different really smart people must be a really fun position for you to be and to really harness this power and attack this huge problem set that you're talking about. Exactly. Yeah. It's very exciting because we're really being able to bring together serving as a hub to have this interaction amongst so many [00:04:00] people who care about this issue deeply. Speaker 1:Um, and you know, we're fortunate again at Berkeley because Berkeley is an epicenter of innovation in this field, in both in the natural sciences and the social sciences. And a lot of people don't know that. I mean Berkeley is known for what are his actually at land grant college where the classic universities that has a connection to agricultural production and you know, being a land grant colleges has leadership in agriculture, but people don't think of it that way because we're not in a rural setting [00:04:30] yet. There's so much work going on here that has to do with food and agriculture. So I think the Berkeley Food Institute is not like we're reinventing anything that's happening at Berkeley, but just bringing people together to create greater visibility and also to help facilitate cross disciplinary interaction. So I can talk a little more about that, but I should mention that we right now have 110 affiliated faculty members from across the university and we welcome more, we're happy to have more faculty members join us. Speaker 1:And we also have many, many students [00:05:00] who are engaged and interested in this. And we've had the fortune of being able to upload employee, a number of students as well as provide some fellowships for students. So I understand and we're talking to anthrop, the executive director of the Berkeley Food Institute here on method to the madness on k, Alex Berkeley. And um, I'd like to understand first, you know, the founding of this organization. It sounds like it sounds so complicated, so many organizations you just walk us through. How does something like that happen on such a made big campus like this and [00:05:30] first from kind of the genesis of the idea to actually kind of getting it implemented in, in off the ground has to have to get its own slice of funding or how, how does this whole thing work? Well, great question. There are a number of, you probably know many institutes and centers on the university campus and some of them are within specific disciplines. Speaker 1:Um, but as I mentioned, the Berkeley Food Institute is highly interdisciplinary. And what happened actually initially, one of the sparks that made this happen was that there's a person is an alum from Berkeley, um, and he [00:06:00] was a, he's a philanthropist and very interested in environmental issues. Um, his name is Bob Epstein and Bob, um, was very interested in, in the idea of, of developing an institute, um, uh, three years ago that really Dell went beyond environmental issues that he was very interested in previously. I mean, it's still obviously food systems relate to environment, but he developed an interest that went beyond that. And um, Bob has a phd from, [00:06:30] uh, from cow in engineering and he came to the College of natural resources, Dean, um, named Keith Gillis and the dean of the Goldman school public policy. And Bob was actually on the advisory board for the Goldman school and expressed his interest. Speaker 1:He also got Michael and, and involved early on to talk about this idea of bringing people together at, at cal to really help make a difference in food systems. Um, Bob, as many of us share the, the notion that it, that food [00:07:00] systems really is an crucial issue that intersects with some of the very critical issues of our time. So, you know, again, these social environmental, economic marketing policy issues across the board. So he felt that there was a great prospect of bringing together many people to leverage the research that's going on here collectively to effect policy change and to affect practical change. So that's what Berkeley Food Institute was founded on the basis of really wanting to [00:07:30] leverage research and bring researchers together with practitioners and policymakers to affect change. So it has a very outward facing mission, which is to support transformative change and food systems and to promote diversity, justice, resilience and health and food systems. Speaker 1:Is there anything else like this in the world? You know, there are other institutes, um, at other campuses and in fact, food systems has gained great attention, uh, throughout the [00:08:00] nation and in fact the world. But I think on the Berkeley Food Institute is, is somewhat unique and, or is unique in the sense that there we have so many disciplines involved. We have done sort of an analysis of, of different institutes that have some similarities and um, some of them are interdisciplinary indeed, but they don't necessarily involve the policy elements and the cultural and the sort of journalism. So we have, you know, the assets of having multiple dimensions that aren't quite covered as much [00:08:30] as other institutes. So I think we have a great promise in that way of really effecting change. Like, you know, you had a great momentum in the founding story of having someone with a vision and having some, some introduce disciplinary leaders involved. Speaker 1:Right. So how, tell us a little bit about your background and they had this idea and then they needed someone to actually run it. So how did you get involved? Well, I should also say before I've personally got involved, um, the deans involved, um, [00:09:00] decided to, uh, appoints faculty co-directors to get it going. And so we have two faculty co-directors, um, named Claire Kremen and Allister Isles, both from the College of natural resources. And they had already been very active in developing what we call the diversified farming systems center. So that also had to do with sort of diverse and ecologically sound agroecology methods that are used mostly in organic production systems. So that was something that they were already doing research on. And, um, the Dean and [00:09:30] others felt that they were be good co-directors, Dick Chair to get the ideas going and they formed a committee to help get that going as well from multiple disciplines. Speaker 1:Um, and then held a, a sort of a founding symposium to get ideas from external stake holders as well. So all that, that first sort of year was really focused on kind of getting ideas and figuring out where it was going to go. And then they announced the executive director position. I applied for that and I was unfortunate enough to receive the position after [00:10:00] many interviews and discussions with the group. So yeah, it was a no loss and practically, yeah. Well I have a background, it's very interdisciplinary, which is appropriate for this job. Um, I, um, it actually was years ago, a postdoc here at Berkeley, so I know Berkeley quite well and have had interaction for many years with, um, with people who work at Berkeley. Um, but I have a background in both the natural sciences and the social science is mainly in sustainable agriculture. Speaker 1:And, um, [00:10:30] I did work internationally in Latin America on the intersection of environment development and food systems. So I was very interested and did a lot of work on, uh, social issues having to do with the impacts of, of unsustainable farming in developing countries, uh, and in the United States, but mostly in Latin America. And then I worked for some years in research, but then I worked in a policy institute called the World Resources Institute as the director of sustainable agriculture for many years. Um, and [00:11:00] then I worked for a short time and the government actually to, um, providing a grant program to sustainable agriculture programs. Um, and then I was in the private sector. I actually was a sustainability director at a, at a organic vineyards up in Sonoma county for many years. And I worked very closely with growers and with cooperative extension. Um, but my, my background really touches on a lot of areas for quite a while. Speaker 1:Actually my early work in my dissertation for my phd was, um, on farm worker issues, um, and exposure [00:11:30] to pesticides and the banana industry. So that was in Costa Rica. So I, yeah, I really have addressed a lot of different issues, but my passions are really about justice and, uh, sustainability in, in food systems and broadly. So I was really excited about this because I think that BFI brings together so many different, um, interesting people topics and it just seems like a great fit too to create help to create this building of partnerships. I, my own background [00:12:00] has really always been cross-disciplinary and cross-sectoral. So even though I have worked in a number of different jobs, it's been similar themes that help to bring together multiple parties to the table to help to make significant changes in society. Okay. We're talking to anthrop today. She's the executive director of the Berkeley Food Institute, a new ish organization here on campus, interdisciplinary. Speaker 1:We're talking about, and this is methods to the madness on KL expertly. I'm your host. Tallinn Huizar and um, [00:12:30] so, and you, you were given this like, uh, after a year's worth of idea generation by the, the, the faculty co-chairs, um, your committee members, the committee members, you were, uh, handed over this kind of, you know, grand idea with lots of different ways it could probably go. So I'm interested to understand how it's been a couple of years now. How did you decide what the initial projects or where you're going to invest the [00:13:00] institutes time initially? Because the problem statement that you started off the show with is huge and you could go a million different ways. So how did you decide where to, cause I'm, I'm assuming you want to move the needle on a few different things and really make an impact. Definitely. Well, so even before I joined the group involvement, the, our faculty co-directors and others involved in the initial executive committee, um, had identified a few areas where they felt, you know, important work needed to be done and in particular, um, people were interested [00:13:30] and I was very interested in, in greater utilizing the existing research on campus and to be able to leverage that more effectively, communicate that more effectively to policymakers and also to engage in public education that can help raise awareness of not only the strengths of the university professors and researchers, but also connect with community people. Speaker 1:As you know, again, Berkeley is known for some of the leading work, like um, leading innovations and not from Alice Waters and Chez Panisse and all that, but [00:14:00] also food justice activism is very strong in this area. So we really was an interest in connecting the work of the university with that broader community. And some of that was definitely already happening. Absolutely. But the idea was to give greater visibility and strength and support to those efforts. I mean, another example would be a lot of education was going on by a motivated by students and initiated by students like the student organic gardening association. And again, we just wanted to be able to give greater strength and visibility to those kinds of opportunities. So [00:14:30] when I came on board, um, we realized that one of the first things that we could do is develop, uh, a small seed grant program, uh, for projects that were innovative, cross disciplinary and aim to effect change. Speaker 1:So we put out a request for proposals to all faculty members on campus, um, to uh, come with projects that were cross disciplinary in nature and aim to address some of the major issues that were of concern in food systems. What is the seed [00:15:00] grant proposal? Well, a proposal. What basically what it meant is that they put together project ideas that were about different issues, um, ranging from urban farming issues to nutrition and health challenges and then their small projects. And we had small amounts of funding and like $25,000 for each grant. Um, but they were going to be doing research on these topics. It proposed research to us that, um, were going to affect these, these, you know, help provide information that [00:15:30] could solve these issues or come up with new innovations. So we had 24 applications in the first round, which involved literally dozens of people across the campus cause they weren't just alone applicants. Speaker 1:They were working in partnership. Um, so we only could pick five out of those 24 are, we're expecting maybe 12 or dozen or so, but we're really excited. So I have to say this was, the development of this program was done in collaboration. Of course [00:16:00] with our faculty co-directors, it wasn't just me, but we came up with the search committee and, and we were just really delighted at the quality, um, and the array of things that were proposed. Um, great projects. And unfortunately we can only choose five. Um, but then we did a second round of those, those research projects, um, are the requests for proposals in the second year too. And we'll do the first one was in 2014 as one of the first things that I was involved in doing when I came on board. And of course that, that great for me to [00:16:30] learn more about all of what's going on on campus. Speaker 1:I already knew some of what was happening here, but part of my initial orientation was just to meet lots and lots and lots of people to learn about what's going on here. And then people applied to this program, which advanced my learning too. So can you tell us what are some of the grants that were awarded? Well in the first, yeah, so in the first round we have one that's very, very unique. We received a lot of attention. It's unique. It's on, um, urban foraging that is basically hunting around for interesting. [00:17:00] Um, you know, uh, plants that are edible that are underrepresented and people don't realize that these kinds of plants are actually edible, but they actually can provide good nutrition. Um, when you go to the farmer's market or to a grocery store, now you can buy Dandelion Greens that are grown, but it actually, there'll be available in your own backyard for many people in their own backyard. Speaker 1:But they're also located often in kind of urban lots. And so this project did an analysis, kind of a mapping analysis of all of these places where they could find so-called [00:17:30] weeds, but which actually could be foraged plants. Um, so that was one of the interesting projects and it actually morphed into a more complex project that involves also identifying in farms in rural areas, these types of weed. Um, you know, weeds that have always been considered weeds on farms are marketed very small quantities, but they're trying to explore the opportunity for further market potential by getting upscale restaurants involved in others. So I mean, there was a concern about how these weeds could [00:18:00] be used in so-called food deserts. You know, in areas where there's a lack of nutritious food. Um, and certainly there are some prospects for, for these weeds in those areas, but there also are opportunities in other areas to greater utilize these. Speaker 1:So that's one area. Another one of them was on, um, on, uh, urban agroecology. So similar urban farming areas. We have one that has to do with um, farm workers and farm small farmers in Salinas Valley [00:18:30] that are interested in land access to develop their own farms and still another one on nutritious and healthy making, um, snap this food stamp recipients, um, considering, uh, healthy beverage purchases as part of a package of Ben or opportunities and potential restrictions on unhealthy beverages for snap recipients. So those are just some of the kinds of things that we're, that we're supporting. Um, and in this we also have one on on, on labor conditions. [00:19:00] So that's another area and it's really important in the restaurant workers industry. So it really spans quite a range of issues. Um, and we also continue that program this year. We are continuing the program this year. Speaker 1:Um, so yeah, that's a really interesting, a lot of great ideas. So, um, exhilarating to mind this, you know, very fertile ground for ideas. It is. Yeah. And it's also been interesting cause the scope ranges from very local [00:19:30] to global. Um, I think people have had the impression that most of our work is focused on California and local, but we are very interested in many faculty are doing international work and we've even had a chance to delve into that. So basically research is one of our main areas of work, but linking that to policy into practice. So if you notice most of the topics I mentioned do have a link to affect change. So we're really trying to encourage these kinds of projects that really have prospect to communicate results that can help lead to change. [00:20:00] And we're speaking with anthrop here. She's the executive director of the Berkeley Food Institute here on campus. Speaker 1:And this is KLX Berkeley 90.7 FM method to the madness. I'm your host Ali in his are. And so we were talking about the seed grant program, but you guys also do a lot of other things. We do, yes. So tell us a little bit about a lot. There's a lot of educational things there are. Yeah, we sound like they're both for the community and at large on campus. Tell us a little bit about that. Well. Um, we've been really doing a lot of public education events. Um, we have had [00:20:30] for the past, uh, two years, um, of forums, monthly forms that we call the food exchange forum, but also hosted every other public education events. And that brings together, it's usually a forum that involves internal speakers or Berkeley speakers, but also people from other sectors of society like, like Ninjas, nongovernment organizations or um, government agency representatives and or, um, farmers in some cases who come [00:21:00] to speak on critical issues. Speaker 1:And we've covered a huge array of topics in that ranging from climate change and agriculture to livestock issues and animal agriculture. Um, also issues of farm, you know, farm worker issues. Um, and let's see a number, oh, we also did a really interesting forum on innovative businesses that are exploring innovative business models. So there really has been a whole array of different topics. We also did a really great forum that attracted more than 300 people [00:21:30] or about 300 people last spring on justice and food systems that had some really excellent speakers. Um, talk, talk about that very important issue on all different levels. So, um, yes, those public education events are free and they've been available to the public. Um, and we've continued them this year we were doing, um, fewer just because of, we don't have the capacity to do too many, but we're doing an event that's going to feature Marianne Nessel who's a very well known speaker and [00:22:00] writer, um, talking about her new book on Soda Politics and it's actually going to be focused. Speaker 1:That book is focused or one of the main issues is focused on the Berkeley soda tax. So that will be on November 4th. Um, and we also have a speaker who is the secretary of the California Department of Food and agriculture who's coming on November 9th. And we're very excited about that too. She's going to be featured in it in a public, in a public forum. So those kinds of events have just raised attention to these, to [00:22:30] these issues. And also again, enable this kind of cross-fertilization between different people who are working on these issues from different perspectives. And for people who want to really see the full calendar where they go to food. Dopper Clinton Edu. Yes, that's our website. Yep. food.berkeley.edu and the events, um, section has, has our calendar and also information on these featured events. We also publicize events for other people. So there are many other events that are happening on campus that have to do [00:23:00] with food and agriculture. Speaker 1:So we are happy to post those events on our calendar and that goes right into the cal calendar. So, um, and also community events in the bay area, we sometimes publish publicize those as well. So it's a great place for people to go who just want to learn about what's going on with food systems. Okay, great. So I'm going to say in addition to doing those public education events, we've been very involved in facilitating a committee that has developed a minor in food systems. And some [00:23:30] people, especially from the community might want to know what does that mean. So basically, um, as you know, when you're, when you're in college you can get a major in something. Well you can also get a minor in a topic and many, many people are interested in food as a minor. So they may have a major in like in like ecology or in pest management or in um, let's say, um, anthropology, but they might want to minor in food systems because they have a particular interest in let's say food and culture. Speaker 1:So they might have a major in anthropology and a minor [00:24:00] in food systems and then focus on that same thing with like nutrition. They may focus as their major in nutrition sciences, but they won't want to do food systems more broadly as a minor. So we're really excited that, um, that Berkeley has now, UC Berkeley has now launched a new food systems minor and the Berkeley Food Institute played a role in enabling that to happen by facilitate facilitating a committee that helped to put together the curriculum. So now any student, any undergraduate can minor in food systems, which is a [00:24:30] needed topic. Definitely. That's my next question for you is as we come towards the end of the interview is, um, one of the fundamental issues we have as a race now is just the explosion of the populations. We've got the same earth, but we've got a lot more people that we've got to feed. Speaker 1:Right? So as that, you know, supply and demand equation and starts to change fundamentally. What do you, from your seat and someone who studied this your whole career and is now at the nexus of all this innovation, what do you think is the biggest [00:25:00] kind of levers that we need to push to really create a, uh, a system that is just, and, and healthy and like where, where are the really big bets that have to be placed? I mean, I know my big super progressive friends are always like anti Monsanto. Like either if we get rid of them, we'll have everything solved, but I'm sure it's much more complex on that. What's your opinion on that? Well, it's very complicated of course, and it'd be very difficult and just a short interview to kind of characterize the complexities. [00:25:30] But I do think one thing we really need to stress is that often the problem or the issues of food access and food security internationally are posed as one of just a technology question of feeding the planet by increasing yields, increasing productivity. Speaker 1:But in fact, so much of the challenge has to do with distribution and access. I'm not saying that there's not a production problem because there isn't many places, but in some parts of the world, including the United States, there's actually overproduction of some [00:26:00] goods and products. So I think part of the challenge is to reframe the question of feeding the world as one of, you know, how do we enable access to healthy and nutritious foods, affordable foods for everybody in the on the planet, and to overcome these great discrepancies in inequities that we have and where people do have incredible abundance and over abundance of food and in other places where they have great scarcity of food or scarcity of good food. So it has to do with income issues. [00:26:30] It has to do with poverty, it has to do with policy, it has to do with control of food systems. Speaker 1:So it's very complex issue, but we're trying to address those issues in a holistic way. This really, we believe at the Brooklyn Food Institute that solving these issues and coming up with innovations really requires a multi-sectoral, you know, systems approach. And we've focused in on a few key key topics or themes. Um, and we're trying to hone in on more of those. And, um, I'm actually say focus even more of our efforts [00:27:00] in those areas. But one of the areas is, does have to do with, um, ensuring that all people have access to, um, nutritious and affordable food. And another area that we think is really crucial when there's a great gap of work has to do with ensuring healthy and fair, uh, labor conditions, which is often something that's not addressed that much in food systems. Um, but as key to sustainability of food, food provision and food access. Speaker 1:And then the third areas is accelerating [00:27:30] the adoption of what we refer to as agroecology, which is the integration of agriculture, antiques or ecological principles in agriculture, but also addressing the social issues in agriculture. So people refer to that sometimes as sustainable agriculture. But agroecology has a particular meaning that has been actually really, there's a lot of innovation and pioneers in agroecology here at the University of California at Berkeley. And we really feel that that, you know, accelerating the adoption of agroecology is crucial, um, at a [00:28:00] global scale. So those are some of the key areas, but there's a lot more to be done. Of course, market issues, consolidation in the food system, you know, there really are a multiplicity of, of challenges but also opportunities. And I think the excitement that has been generated at Berkeley in this area is just one reflection of promise actually. Speaker 1:And um, you know, real potential to bring about change. And we're, I mean to me it's exciting at this point in my career. I've been working on this for many years, always in partnership [00:28:30] with lots of people. But I think right now I've just feeling an accelerated element of, of, of interest in and enthusiasm on the part of many, many people from multiple sides. So that's great. So I always like to end the interview with asking you, um, if everything was to go exactly right, what would happen five years from now, what would you think? What would be, if I Berkeley Food Institute, you check it out everybody, whole lot of food.berkeley.edu what kind of impact, what would the organization look like five years from now? [00:29:00] Well, I do think that our, our vision is really to, to achieve, you know, some elements of transformative change in food systems. Speaker 1:And it's hard to know exactly how that will be characterized, but I think we can put ourselves on the map by achieving, you know, really greater equity in access to nutritious and healthy food. And that has to come about through policy change. I didn't get a chance to talk too much about our policy program, but really we need people on board from, you know, the government, [00:29:30] all government agencies to really place this on the forefront of healthcare. Um, you know, really food is can be an entry point to health. Um, and also for assuring, um, the wise use of natural resources and mitigation of climate change can happen through effective agriculture practices. So I think we really want to put ourselves on the map and you know, really, um, uh, develop this organization so that we can leverage the research and really effect these changes through policy and through practical changes. Speaker 1:[00:30:00] So I think the, the possibility is in reach and we just need to focus in on a few key issues. So. Okay, great. Well there you have it. That's an through up the executive director of the Berkeley Food Institute and Interdisciplinary Institute here on campus. Go check them out of food.berkeley.edu. They got a lot of great events coming up this fall. You should get involved if this speaks to you, if you're a student, consider getting a food systems minor. It sounds like a really interesting topic. You can check out our programs and our events to, yeah, there you go. [00:30:30] So thanks a lot for listening everybody. Uh, this has been method to the madness on KLX Berkeley 90.7 FM. I'm your host selling his art. Thanks for joining and have a great Friday. Everybody. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Sleep education and awareness to prevent sleep deprivationTRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:You're listening to k, Berkeley 90.7 FM. And this is method to the madness coming at you from the Public Affairs Department here at Calex celebrating the innovative spirit of the bay area. I'm your host [inaudible] and today we are lucky to have with us in studio, Karen Schwartzback, founder of pivotal sleep. Hey Karen, how's it going? Hey, great. Thanks for having me. So A, we're going to talk about sleep today. Yes, we are. And it's, it's something that we all do a lot. It is yesterday's gone quite a bit of our, uh, nights sleeping. Yeah. It's [00:00:30] amazing because it's something we all do a lot, but we probably don't give a lot of thought to it. Right, right. So, um, so I'd like to start off by asking you about, you founded a company dedicated to sleep yes. And sleep education and awareness. So I want to get into that and what you guys teach. But first let's talk about the problem statement. I always ask this a founder's. Yeah. Why did you start this organization Speaker 2:way back when? I was interested in helping new families actually with the sleep that they were not [00:01:00] getting because their young children weren't sleeping. Uh, once children were sleeping, parents were sleeping better. And what I realized were, was that a lot of my clients had jobs that were, um, very vital to the wellbeing of the community, the world at large. I had pilots and doctors and nurses and firefighters who were the parents of these children. And I often wonder to myself with me being in the hands of a sleep deprived [00:01:30] adult, what might that you know, do in terms of compromising my health and wellbeing? And so not only for their own health and the health of their families, but also just in the world. Uh, people walking around, sleep deprived, driving around, sleep-deprived, flying around, sleep deprived. It really became clear to me that this was, um, sort of epidemic. As a matter of fact, the Center for Disease Control, um, says that sleep is considered a national epidemic. Speaker 1:Okay. So, um, you saw an opportunity [00:02:00] yes. To, um, to address adult sleep issues and make yourself safer, it sounded like. Yes. In part, yeah. Okay. So tell us about your background. Like how did you, uh, you obviously had some, some angle here that made you think of this. How did what, tell us about how you [inaudible]. Great question Speaker 2:came to. So, um, after the birth of my children, I have twins that are almost 19 now with different sleep worries now than when they were babies. Um, I was, um, contracted as an educator at a, [00:02:30] a bay area hospital to educate new and expectant parents. And as a subset of that, I launched a company to support new parents. And the only thing these new parents wanted to really talk about, no matter what I wanted them to talk about was how do I get two babies to sleep and just the impact of sleep deprivation on their own health and wellbeing. And so I sort of toyed around with the idea of helping people with their sleep and um, a client [00:03:00] approach me and ask if I could help her out. She was my Guinea pig. That was 12 years ago and found that I, from a lot of research and personal experience had dialed in a little bit to some sleep solutions for young children. Speaker 2:And so I began to work with families in earnest, um, as sort of a byproduct of my workshop and education programs and, um, never looked back. Actually. I realized I had a knack for it. I was able to drill down into what makes people tick [00:03:30] in terms of achieving or not, um, good sleep. And people used to ask me a lot if I would work with adults. And I used to say once they're walking and talking, you know, I don't want them anymore because they, you know, there's a lot of pushback because, um, we want to do what we want to do in our days, in our evenings and sleep sometimes get short shrift when there's so many other things that we want to do further along. Doing more research, reading Harvard School of sleep medicine, [00:04:00] the Centers for Disease Control, um, uh, the national sleep foundation, seeing the epidemic proportion of sleep deprivation amongst Americans, 50 to 70 million Americans suffer from some degree of sleep loss. Speaker 2:Some it's medical in nature, but I would say probably the majority, it's behavioral. And what I realized was that the behaviors of children aren't that different than the behaviors of adults in terms of structuring sleep in a way to [00:04:30] achieve optimal arrest. Um, and so I started, took the angle of, okay, this is what I do with young children. How different is it for adults and the difference between adults and children's that parents show children or dictate to children what they should do. We as adults or college students or high school students, we have our own minds. And so it's sort of at will to change behaviors to improve sleep health. And so that was really what launched this new entity for me. And the response has been [00:05:00] really remarkable. Speaker 1:AndW when did so the company called pivotal sleep? Speaker 2:Yes. As you launch it. So pivotal sleep is about two years old. Okay. And, um, my other entities started in 2003, so I've been in the sleep world for about 12 years. Okay. Now, uh, let's just [inaudible] Speaker 1:let's try to establish, and we're talking to Karen shores, back of pivotal sleep. She's the founder here on method to the Madison k Alex Berkeley. And let's talk about, I was looking through your website, let's educate a little bit on our listeners. So the, you talk about the three [00:05:30] elements of good sleep. Yeah. Duration, continuity and depth. Can you kind of define for us a little bit about those three? Like what, how do those three things work together to provide good sleep? Speaker 2:Right. And so when you look at those three elements as important, are the precursors to, um, getting a good depth of sleep for a proper duration and good quality. So duration, how many hours of sleep do we need? People always that question. There are people that say, I'm great on five hours sleep. [00:06:00] There are people that say, I get eight hours and I could use more. So there really isn't a magic number. Um, the national sleep foundation and most entities you speak with will say approximately seven to eight hours of sleep for adults. Teenagers, ironically, can't go to sleep as early as adults or younger children because of the onset of Melatonin, which we can get into or, or not. Um, but in terms of the duration of sleep, there is some degree of variability. Uh, there was a recent, not [00:06:30] maybe not so recent study by the University of California, San Francisco, and they found that there's about 3% of the adult population that can sustain themselves well on six hours or less of sleep. Speaker 2:But for the 97% of the rest of us, six hours isn't really adequate sleep. So let's say you get seven hours of sleep. What about the quality of your sleep? There are a lot of apps out there. There are fitbit's and misfits and all these different tools that you can use. It can actually measure the kind [00:07:00] of sleep that you're getting. Am I getting deep sleep? Am I getting light sleep for the duration I'm in bed? How many hours am I actually sleeping? There really isn't a magic number in terms of how many hours of rem sleep versus non rem sleep. You get rem sleep and non-rem sleep together. A sleep cycle is about 90 to 120 minutes for adults. And so, um, there's a sleep specialist that calculates about five hours of five cycles of, um, of total sleep [00:07:30] to get restorative sleep, which turns out to be about seven and a half hours of sleep. Speaker 2:People wake up in the middle of the night and people complain that they can't go back to sleep. So broken sleep isn't as restorative as continuously, but the truth of the matter is a sleep cycle is only 90 to 120 minutes. So we all actually wake up in the course of sleep, but go back to sleep. It's those people that wake up and can't go back to sleep that then have compromised, uh, total restorative rest. So when they wake [00:08:00] up in the morning, they're not ready to get out of bed because they're still tired. Um, but their day begins and they have to get up and, you know, get on with her day. Speaker 1:Yeah. So, um, have you talked about in terms of the three elements, the duration, um, given the fact that everybody's unique and you can't prescribe for everybody, but right. The general guidelines is between seven and eight. Correct. And then, um, the two other factors, continuity. So you're, I think what I heard you say every 90 to 120 minutes, [00:08:30] you're gonna kind of rouse and reposition. Exactly. And then that's the second component and a third is depth. Right? And that's where you could get a fitbit or something like that to measure that. Is that Ram when we hear rem sleep depth, Speaker 2:right. So, so there are, you know, rem and non rem sleep are both important elements of the sleep cycle. So, um, when you're in rem sleep, your body is oddly in a state of paralysis. So your body doesn't, that's how the fitbit actually measures it. It's measuring movement. [00:09:00] So my body's not moving. I'm in my deeper state of sleep, but wrap, my brain is active, but my body's very still. When I'm in a lighter phase of sleep, my brain is in a lighter phase. But my body is more active. So how many cycles of rem or non rem sleep you might be getting, um, is variable as well. So it's not like I have to get six people ask me, well how can I ensure that I get more cycles of Rem Sleep? Well 90 to 120 minutes is both of your four stages of lighter sleep, [00:09:30] non rem sleep and then one stage of, of rem sleep. Speaker 2:So it's your non rem cycles cumulatively are longer than your rem cycles. Um, but cumulatively it creates the restorative nature of your total sleep intake. So it's hard to kind of explain what it is I'm trying to say. But not everybody is getting full cycles because they're waking up from precursory reasons, which I'd be happy to go into and explain to you why people are waking up half way [00:10:00] through the night and they don't know if it's a rum or non-rem cycle that they're waking out of. Right. Okay. Why are they waking up? So not dissimilar to young children. What happens during the day is impacting how you're sleeping at night? So things that people don't think about as impacting the depth of their sleep or the quality or duration of their sleep are things that we might do before we go to bed. For example, low blue light exposure, the smart phones, um, I iPads [00:10:30] computers that is emitting a low blue light, which actually suppresses the body's capacity to produce Melatonin and it can actually impact and disrupt our sleep. Speaker 2:So for those of you out there who are on your computer until you shut it off and turn out the lights, you may fall asleep, but you wake up and you're not sure why you're tired, but the low blue light exposure is actually suppressing the body's ability to produce Melatonin. That's one. Another might be alcohol. A lot of people [00:11:00] have their glass of wine. It sort of sends them off to sleep. But when the body metabolizes wine, it can be dehydrating and there's a sugar content and so it actually can wake people up. So there's things that are happening in the earlier part of our day that's actually impacting why we're waking up in the middle of the night or not being able to fall asleep. And I did a talk over at Lawrence Livermore national labs about a month ago. There are about a hundred people in the room and I asked the question, how many people have a hard time falling asleep? Speaker 2:And maybe 20% of the audience raised [00:11:30] their hand. And the next question was, how many of you have a, you can fall asleep but wake up. And the vast majority of people raise their hands. So that led me to believe that for many people, it's not the falling asleep part, it's the staying asleep part. I'm awake at three o'clock in the morning and I can't go back to sleep. So what do I do? I look at my clock and now I'm doing math and the light is red and stimulating and suddenly I'm awake. And then I'm thinking, okay, if I can fall back asleep, I've got three more hours until I have to get up and be in class or whatever [00:12:00] it might be. And so we're now disrupting our body's ability to go back to sleep because now we're in an active state of thought Speaker 1:and stress and stress. It's, it's like a downward cycle of it. Yeah, Speaker 2:exactly. And a lot of people also think they should stay in bed until they fall back asleep. And most experts will say, if you're laying in bed awake and you can't fall asleep within 15, 20 minutes, you should actually get out of bed and go to a quiet dimly lit place. Not Look at your iPhone or your computer. Don't watch TV. Um, and [00:12:30] um, have a, maybe a light behind your head and read quietly or listen to some relaxing music or play guitar or something that's very relaxing. And when you start to tell drowsy to go back to bed. Speaker 1:Okay, interesting. Well, we're talking to Karen shores, Bach of founder of pivotal sleep here on methods of the magnets. KLX Berkeley 90.7 FM. And we're talking about sleep. So, um, thank you for going over kind of the basics. I did want to ask them. Alec Melatonin. Yes. I'm not very familiar [00:13:00] with it. Can you just explain to how, what is it, how does it get created and how does it relate to sleep? Speaker 2:Great question. So, um, I like to call Melatonin the body's natural sleep drug. And so in between our eyebrows, if you will, we have the pineal gland and the pineal gland secretes Melatonin. Melatonin is the sleep hormone that our bodies use. Melatonin onsets around nine o'clock at night and, um, allows us, you know, seven to nine hours of peak melatonin [00:13:30] production. And so without Melatonin, there are some people that take synthetic Melatonin. There's probably some part of the population that doesn't produce adequate Melatonin. But in essence, if we allow ourselves to utilize the Melatonin within our system and not compromise it by the low blue light or other things that we might be doing that as suppressing it, that should be enough to help asleep. For a lot of people they'll use melatonin because they're doing other things that are compromising Melatonin's function. And [00:14:00] so synthetic Melatonin or other sleep aids that they may use is sort of taking the place of what we can actually create [inaudible] nature has created for us. Speaker 2:Nature has created for us and Melatonin is Melatonin and it's not like it's changed. Circadian Rhythm is 24 hours in a few minutes. And so the body functions before the industrial revolution, before light bulbs, when it got dark, man went to sleep and when the sun came up the man woke up and our bodies are still in that rhythm and Melatonin is actually [00:14:30] stimulated by darkness. And so the low blue that I was talking about earlier is suppressing that about the body's capacity to produce it. But ironically, being out in sunlight, which actually stimulates cortisol, which is sort of the stress or a fight or flight chemical, our bodies produce can actually serve later in the date to expedite Melatonin when we move into darker light or sunset or what have you. So melatonin and cortisol, if I can use a biblical sort of term of David [00:15:00] and Goliath. So I like to think of Melatonin as David, you know, kind of this, you know, groovy, scruffy beard accounting guy and cortisol being Goliath. This big hairy monster, well Melatonin can't bring down cortisol but cortisol can sort of squash Melatonin. And that's how I describe it to folks that I'm working with because it is a very visual that you can see that if I'm doing things that are going to actually compromise the body's ability to suppress Melatonin, Melatonin can't get up and over whatever it is that's [00:15:30] getting in the way. Speaker 1:Yeah. It's interesting. You know, I have a three year old and uh, putting her to sleep is a tough yeah. And um, we've been trying to find the right time and we were debating this. My wife was debating, well, when there's an optimal time, the Melatonin is being released yet we don't quite know what it is. I mean, we're putting her to bed too late. You think the later you put the child to bed, the more tired there'll be, the more they go to sleep. But there's this window of opportunity. Yeah. Right. So how does that work? Speaker 2:Totally counterintuitive. And, and [00:16:00] I've worked with over 500 clients privately. Um, and I've seen time and time and time again the resistance of an earlier bedtime. But the truth of the matter is if a child's put down after their Melatonin window has closed, so let's say your daughter is in the bath and she's having a great time and she comes out of the bath, her Melatonin that was peaking because she was in warm water and elevated body temperature crashes when the body temperature drops and cortisols are at takes over. And so she's zipping around and [00:16:30] full of energy and you think, well that's going to tire her out and she's going to go to sleep. But her, you can't like lift the head and spin around and get the Melatonin, you know, come to the top like cream. And so it's ironic that an earlier bedtime is actually more productive and yields an easier put down than a later bedtime, which is sort of counterintuitive to folks. Speaker 1:Yeah, it really is. So I wanted to go down, I wanted to go down that path for a little bit. So, um, kind of best practices. [00:17:00] Yeah. So, uh, I wanted to talk about kind of different types of people's. Let's talk with babies. Okay. That's more you started your extra money. So, um, given we know all babies are different and all people are different, but you've been doing this for awhile now it sounds like, was it 12 years, 12 years? So, uh, what are some of the top tips for a new parent that you can give to help them, you know, deal with this stress of having this little person who wakes up all the time and cry? Speaker 2:I love that question so [00:17:30] much because some of the things I'm going to tell you are also applicable to adults. And so again, once again, the things that we do before we put the body to bed can impact the body's ability to sleep. So for children, and I can also say most of these things for adults, room environment. So National Sleep Foundation, um, talks about having optimal room environment and most sleep experts will talk about optimizing the room environment. Once again, the body reads, light is awake, [00:18:00] dark is asleep. So for little children and for adults having a room that's dark, cool and quiet, that's really information gathering on the body's part that says, oh, I see it's dark. It's telling my body Melatonin production time and the white noise if you will use it or no noise at all. But having a quiet room environment can also calm the mind. Speaker 2:If there's a white noise element, it's sort of, um, I call it ps noise. It's sort of in the distance, but it just a very settling and relaxing to the subconscious. [00:18:30] There actually some white noise players that have been, um, designed by, um, scientists or they're using the brainwaves as um, sort of the rhythm of the white noise. Um, the temperature. Cool. I say cool is the rule. A cooler room is much more conducive to sleep than a warm room. 65 to 72 degrees peak, whether they be little children or adults. So a cooler room is more optimal, a dark room, a quiet room. Um, if you have clocks or [00:19:00] stimulating day decor or a video camera that has a light shining in the baby's face, that can be very distracting as either as a stimulating element if it's red or if it's green or blue as a low blue light element that's suppressing Melatonin. Speaker 2:So having a room environment that's conducive to sleep, having a routine. And this goes for adults too. It may seem strange to have a ritual around sleep. So we're doing these three things, four things before we go to bed, whether it be a little child who's [00:19:30] having a bath, a diaper change into pajamas, a final feeding, a story, a poem, prayer, whatever it might be. Those elements are conditioning at the body receives at the same way in the same order each and every time the body starts to expect it and anticipate it for adults as well. There's a lot of adults, many adults who have ritual around their sleep. So they may turn off their electronics an hour before they go to sleep. They may take a warm bath, they may do deep [00:20:00] breathing, relaxation, yoga, whatever might be relaxing for them. Perhaps they have a, a chair that they go to and they write their worry list. Speaker 2:So they take out of their mind that things they have to do tomorrow or the worries that they have on their mind so they can sort of cleanse the palate, if you will, to then move into a sleeping phase. So I have a colleague that calls it the sleep room, not the bedroom because parents, people have a tendency to do a lot of things in their bedroom, TV, computers, Bill Paying, [00:20:30] reading, I'm moving it or perceiving it as a place to sleep. It can oftentimes be soothing and relaxing for people because they're not stimulated by all the other things that might go on in a room. So for children to have these routines and, um, environmental, um, triggers, the same applies for adults. The third thing I would say this is really, really important for children and a lot of parents miss this is nutrition. [00:21:00] Um, I call it fueling the car for the body to be able to drive the distance like the car drives with gas net, we need to optimally fuel it. Speaker 2:So a lot of times a three year old might be very carb-heavy crackers, fruits, vegetables, which can be wholesome. You could grow them in your backyard or get them at whole foods or wherever you might get them. But the carbs are carbs, protein sources are more sustainable and can actually help the body fuel itself for more prolonged, more productive sleep for adult, spicy foods, [00:21:30] alcohol, obviously a lot of liquids, red bowls, um, uh, heavy meats. Um, there are a lot of foods that can actually impact the body's ability either to fall asleep or stay asleep either because of the metabolizing in the system or the spicy foods can be disruptive to the digestive process or what have you. Surfing Kathleen's huge. Um, I had a cup of coffee on my way in here and I'm one of those people that can turn off the lights after coffee later in the evening. Speaker 2:But for most people having [00:22:00] coffee, um, after three o'clock, so maybe five hours before you go to bed, for most people not having caffeine, whether it be a soda, a Red Bull, uh, coffee and even decaffeinated beverages still have a degree of caffeine in them. Um, so that's another, um, no, no, if it, if it bothers you. And that's what I say to everybody, whether it be an adult or a child. Just to your point, we're all different and caffeine may not bother me, but my computer might and the computer [00:22:30] may not bother you, but caffeine might. And so when I'm working with um, adults, I have them actually keep a baseline sleep diary. So I'm not going to give you any solutions. I just want you to observe yourself, take yourself into the laboratory, track your behaviors. This is what I did today and this is how I slept tonight. Speaker 2:So in the morning, reflecting back, here's what I did today. And then the morning that I wake up in the middle of the night, did I have a hard time falling asleep in the middle of the night? I'll look at that. I did. What did I do the previous day? That may have been that trigger. [00:23:00] Let's see what happens if I turn off my computer 90 minutes before I go to bed. Let's see what happens if I don't have that glass of wine, whatever it might be, and slowly but surely we can start to pull out the triggers and leaving the things that really aren't disruptive to our sleep. Well, Speaker 1:we were speaking with Karen Schwartzbach, she's the founder of pivotal sleep and she's given a great tips on how to manage your sleep. But I have a question for you. You were talking about babies and a little bit about adults, but you know this, this show, I've interviewed a lot of people who would have startups in. Then we're also on [00:23:30] the UC Berkeley campus and Vlade students and students and people working in startups. They have weird schedules and it's very difficult to have the routine that you're talking about. So how do you prescribe better sleep habits for people in that situation where they can't always control and they might Speaker 2:have to stay up until one o'clock in the morning and doing something and yeah, they've on their on deadline and that just happens in their lives. I think one of the greatest challenges I have working in or near the silicon valley is that we're dealing with a lot [00:24:00] of high tech companies and a lot of very busy executives or startup folks or what have you. They're burning the midnight oil and if they understood the longterm impact, because if I'm tired tomorrow morning, I'm going to grab myself a triple Cappuccino and I kind of good to go. I may start to fade around three o'clock, I just grab another one and I continue to go. But if folks understood the longterm impact of sleep deprivation, whether it be heart disease, obesity, depression, [00:24:30] um, eh, the ailments that can be a result of extended and prolonged sleep deprivation is pretty scary. Speaker 2:But people don't look forward that way there. There are sort of in the moment. So what can I do now to preserve the sleep that I am getting? I had a law firm in New York. Um, the um, wellness director said our attorneys sleep four hours a night and they're not going to get more sleep than that. So please don't come here and tell them to sleep eight hours because that's not gonna, that's not the prescription for them. So what can they do? So it's to make the sleep that they [00:25:00] get count. And I'm not advocating four hours of sleep, so don't miss quote me here. But for students who have finals, for folks that are in startups and maybe are talking to folks in India and they have to be up in the middle of the night for con for conference calls or what have you, there's been some research, there's a doctor in San Diego who actually has done some research around the optimal timing for physical, restorative repair. Speaker 2:So I'm not talking about the optimal time to sleep. It's the optimal time for your body to get its physical [00:25:30] and psychological cellular repair and those hours between 10 and 2:10 PM and 2:00 AM so I have almost 19 year old twins and um, I've had many conversations with them about should I go to sleep at 11 o'clock and get up at three and study or should I stay up till two and then go to bed? So we sort of have an agreement that rather you go to bed between 10, 10 and 11, and then you get up pre-dawn and do your studying because you're actually going to be more alert and you're gonna retain more information [00:26:00] than if you burned through and then just collapse it three to get up at six and start all over again. So that's just one example. It may not work for everyone, but it's just a suggestion. Speaker 2:And, um, this doctor in San Diego feels like she's really onto something. I don't have her name to give you. Um, but I've been very curious to see really the longterm impact on the body's, um, ability to say healthy sleeping that way before the industrial revolution. People actually slept in two, four hour blocks, they'd go to bed when the [00:26:30] sun went down, got up to milk, the cows, went back to bed and slept till six or seven o'clock. So it's really the advent of the light bulb that has really changed the way we function in the work world. Yeah. You know, Speaker 1:it's interesting, there's so many different tactics. Like my, um, you know, when I started to learn a little bit more about sleep and, and I would push myself in sleeping Ivers like five hours a night. But, um, when I started doing is, that'll still happen during the week sometimes. But then I'll, I won't let that happen [00:27:00] more than a couple of days in a row and then I'll try to do that catch up. Right. So it's not, we're not on the long term. Like in a short term, if there's a window I have to do it, I have to do it right. But I'll always try to catch up. Right. And that seems to have made me feel happier and better. And Speaker 2:so people ask that question a lot. Can I catch up? If I have a sleep debt, can you race the sleep debt in the short term? You can probably reduce it, but if that's your lifestyle year upon year upon year and you're sleeping till noon on Saturday and then you're back on [00:27:30] track, you know, Sunday night at late hours, there may be longterm impact. So if I can share just a small anecdote. Um, um, a friend's wife is an executive at Walmart and she gets about four hours of sleep and she's in her early thirties and has never really valued sleep. She's hard charging, very goal oriented, what have you. She had a doctor's appointment and the doctor said that he saw some precursory heart disease. First question he asked her was how well do you sleep? [00:28:00] And she said not well, and you know, before we start medicating you, I want you to start focusing on your sleep. Which was really a surprise to her because she didn't realize that that could potentially be the antidote for her longterm health. Speaker 1:Well also, I think at that age we all feel a little bit indestructable sleep. You know you're trying, there's a lot of people you're trying to serve and sleeps and easy one to sacrifice and it's only for you. Yes, that's the way I used to look at it as I've caught a lot of different people, a lot of different masters. I can just cut that out and I can serve all these different masters [00:28:30] but you know we're finding out more and more as a science comes out that that's a bad idea because you won't be around to serve all this. Speaker 2:Exactly, and I would like to just mention to the Harvard School of sleep medicine talks about the three pillars of health. It's physical activity, nutrition and sleep. So I like to think of it as a tripod. If the one leg on the tripod is missing, that tripod can't stand and so people could just visualize that, yes, I eat well, I get my daily jog but I'm completely sleep deprived. At what point is [00:29:00] that going to catch up with me? I want to give just an a comment to your question about students have to stay up late and folks that are working long hours, just in terms of the low blue light, if being on the computer or our other devices is your device, you can actually download, um, a program that will start changing the backlight of your computer from blue to yellow as the day goes on onto it's set to the clock and um, one's called Pango bright and the other f flux and [00:29:30] I may not be exactly spot on, but if you Google it, you can find, um, a program that you can download that will actually help, um, change the lighting so you can be on the computer longer at night if you, and of course your brain still active, but at least your melatonin production isn't being compromised by that low blue light. Speaker 2:There's also a company called low blue lights.com, founded by two, um, uh, professors at John Carroll University in Ohio. And, um, they worked for GE light bulbs for 30 years, making the brightest light bulbs they could [00:30:00] until they realized in their older age that that was actually compromising people's, uh, sleep quality. So they founded low blue lights and they're about 80 something years old. And I tease them and say, is their pennants for stealing less people asleep for so long? And so they have a whole line of products that are scientifically designed, low blue light glasses, um, screens that can go over your iPhone, your iPad, your computer, your TV, and it's just a sheet of amber plastic. But it's not [00:30:30] just you go to a tap plastics and get a piece of yellow plastic that's very scientifically designed to help preserve Melatonin production while you're, um, on these devices that otherwise could impact. Speaker 1:Well, great tips from our guests today. Karen Shores Bach, the founder of pivotal sleep. So thanks for coming into studio design, Karen, and to learn more about her work and how you can get in touch with her. You go to pivotal sleep.com. Is that right? Any, any other way they should get into contact? That's the best way to reach me. Okay, great. And you've been listening to a method [00:31:00] to the madness day on KLX Berkeley. I'm your host. Selling is our, thanks for joining everybody and have a great Friday. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Lawyer, TV host, playwright, and author Wajahat Ali joins Method to the Madness to talk about how he went from UC Berkeley undergrad to becoming one of the most well known and well respected voices of moderate American Muslims.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:Okay. Speaker 2:You're listening to KLX Berkeley at 90.7 FM and this is method to the madness and shove coming at you from the Public Affairs Department here at Calex celebrating the innovative spirit of the bay area. I'm your [00:00:30] host, Elliot Huizar and today we have UC Berkeley's own or Jihad Ali, which Ah, Ali is a lawyer, a playwright, an essayist, a. He's appeared in the Washington Post, the Guardian Salon Atlantic. He's a consultant to the USD department. Uh, and currently also his hosts of Al Jazeera, America's social media driven talk show of the stream. And [inaudible] joined us via phone, myself and my partner Lisa Kiefer over phone to talk about the Muslim [00:01:00] American experience in America. And first off we talked about how he grew up as a Muslim American in the bay area. Speaker 3:You know, I was, I am essentially a multi hyphenated multicultural kid, born and raised in the bay area, who, you know, I'm an American Muslim of bucks I need to send and it very much, I am a product of both old school and new school America, right? Old School, American music, traditional immigrant story, new school America, you know, having to danced the [00:01:30] fault lines of this man, a minority majority country, which I think, uh, is the major cultural shift that we are kind of embracing and rejecting as a country right now, which will really speak volumes about how we evolve or devolve as a nation in the next 20 years. And for me, you know, growing up as awkward a fact and in our tradition of South Asian tradition, you never say fed said quote unquote healthy. I was a very, very, very healthy, [00:02:00] awkward, a set of bucks. Speaker 3:Any immigrants whose parents thought it'd be hilarious to teach them only three words of English. And you know, I had tumeric and lentil stands on my shirt. And um, you know, I ended up going to all boys Bowerman Catholic high school. And then I went to UC Berkeley where I ended up, ironically graduated with an English major. So if to actually kind of look at my background, it is very an American background, but totally very culturally specific lens of an American that, uh, is seen right now in [00:02:30] this moment in history as an outsider, as an other, as a threat, as an antagonist. You know, the Muslim boogeyman. And I think what's interesting is this is nothing really new. If we kind of look back in American history, this has happened before to the LGBT community still happens. Mexican immigrants, African-Americans, Japanese Americans, Irish Catholics and Jewish Americans. And for me, just by virtue of growing up, I had a decision to make whether or not I was going to share my story and engage with people or whether I was going to compartmentalize these different aspects of my t my right, [00:03:00] yes. Speaker 3:Shamed my brown Nester or be ashamed of my mostly mean this or be ashamed of my Americanist. And then, you know, I just decided early on, I think that by virtue, by early on, I mean like eventually you grow up and you realize, I'm always going to be a Dorky outlier. Like, I'm never going to be like that dude who gets like Jessica though. Like you know the hot white girl and he gets invited to like join the all star track team or football team. I'm always going to be that awkward multi-syllabic healthy kid. And I think somewhere in college [00:03:30] I made peace with the fact that I'm never going to fit into this model, a narrative of a quote unquote America that didn't represent me and I was just going to be myself and let my freak flag fly. And the reason why I mentioned that is kind of, this was a gradual evolution, right? Speaker 3:Cause I was always an outlier, but I was always this guy who wanted to share my stories, my culture, my identity, my experiences with my classmates and I always did. And growing up in the bay area, like you guys know, it's such an ethnically diverse community [00:04:00] that you're forced to interact with people who are different than you. And I kind of was innately, if you will, a storyteller without me realizing it. And I did it purely for the joy of doing it, number one. Number two being an awkward, Dorky fat kid usually would for survival because anyone who's run on fatness listen to this. You know, elementary school every day is like world war three and you literally are not the fastest kid on the block cause you're like fat, but you can be them the sharpest can you do. The [inaudible] school was also good survival survival tool and it's uh, you [00:04:30] know, to win over my bullies. Speaker 3:And number three, I just kind of really enjoyed it. I, I, you know, I could make people laugh. I could tell stories and kind of this innate trait that I had growing up in childhood, you know, just telling stories, making movies with my friends, uh, writing small sketches, uh, was the DNA essentially without me realizing it, of what I do now as a profession. And I think storytelling is the key way for us to kind of bridge the divide that exists not only within America, but actually what's happening, quote unquote, between [00:05:00] the West and Islam. I have a question about your impetus because I know Ishmael Reed and I understand that he really should be getting a little credit here for getting you kind of on the right path to your real passion. When he asked you to write a play for his class about a Pakistani American experience after nine 11. Speaker 3:I think that's a great story. And um, and then it led to your play. Can you talk about the play that came out of that? [00:05:30] So I've been very lucky and privileged in my life for, for many reasons, but one of the privileges I've had as I've had great mentors and also my parents have not been stereotypical South Asian immigrant parents. They've also, they've always encouraged me, uh, since my childhood they spotted a talent and they always told me to write issue. I'll read those of you who don't know MacArthur Genius Appeal that your prize nominated Titan who was living in Oakland with his family. Uh, Carla Blank. Also his partner in crime for the past 40 years. He was my English professor, [00:06:00] uh, back in the day when I was at UC Berkeley as an English major. And in fall, September, 2001, I happen to be in a short story writing class and after the two towers fell, he took me aside and said, you know, I've never, I've never really heard about the Pakistani American experience or the Muslim American experience, even though this is a short story writing class. Speaker 3:I think you are actually a natural playwright. I think dialogue and characters are your strengths. Don't waste your time on this class. I'm going to take you out of this class. [00:06:30] You're gonna have 20 pages of a play to pass the class. Okay, great. Go write it. And I was like, oh my God, please let me do anything except this. And the play that came as a result of him quite literally forcing me to write it as the domestic crusaders, which is an old school kitchen drama in the form of American dramas. Like you know, Long Day's journey into night, death of a salesman, fences one day in the life of three generations of a Fox. Any American Muslim family, six characters, uh, that grandfather, the immigrant parents who have achieved the American dream. [00:07:00] And there's three American born children all forced to reconvene in the house for before the youngest son's 21st birthday. Speaker 3:And Ishmael literally kept at it for like a year telling me to, you know, to, to, to finish this place. Start it from my 21st birthday in the fall of 2001, I submitted my 20 pages to pass the damn class. And then I finally finished it for my 23rd birthday again after I graduated from college. And Ishmael kept at it and then he handed it over to his wife, Carla Blank, who became [00:07:30] the director and dramaturge at this plate and this small little play that has origin and UC Berkeley in the bay area. And then Adam Heran Indian restaurant and Johnny restaurant in Newark, California. And then, you know, Oakland Library. Then went onto Berkeley repertory theater, then went on to New York, then I went up to the county center, then I went to London and got published, uh, [inaudible], which is again a bury a staple, uh, in 2000, I think 10 or 2011 as the first major and Muslim American play they got published. Speaker 3:So that type of [00:08:00] mentorship was key. And the story behind the play I truncated like 13 years is one minute is really kind of remarkable and uh, you know, we, you know, just to show you how sometimes it can be a little bit ahead of the curve. Each model has always been a bit ahead of the curve in spotting kind of thing and it's finding trends. And he always told me to, that was a bit discouraged on 2003, 2004, I'm like, man, I thought the play would picked up and it didn't. He said, he said, listen, America isn't ready yet, but just wait and watch all these other plays are coming out and now they're going to fade. There'll [00:08:30] be talking about your plan 10 years from now just to just your weight. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, whatever. You know. Sometimes he can be very hyperbolic, the people that he praises. And then just one a month ago, university of Maryland tweets out a photo, a professor from the English Department without a photo like teaching and performing, which has all these domestic visitors' with all these white actors playing the box, any American family members as part of the curriculum at University of Minnesota, Peter, that each year and then like London is doing it. You know what I'm saying? Speaker 2:[00:09:00] You're listening to method to the madness on KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM. This is an interview over the phone with [inaudible] Ali, the host of Elijah Z or America's the stream social media driven talk show. He's also a author in playwright, a bay area native and UC Berkeley Grad. Uh, we continued our conversation, myself and Lisa keeper with him talking about him getting his play publish and pilot shopping in Hollywood Speaker 3:just to get it published [00:09:30] was based on the promise I made to an Egyptian budding scholar in 2009, this Egyptian scholar with getting her phd. Then she says Alan write about domestic crusaders, specifically American Muslim art and respond to post nine 11, you know, when it comes to cultural creation, but I need all my works that I write about to be published. And that for some strange reason that said, don't worry like 2010, I'll get it published and then like fast forward. So, but yeah, so the play's getting published, right? I'm like, Oh crap. And so that led to my, you know, friendship with Dave Eggers [00:10:00] and McSweeney's, you know, on a whim, emailing them, saying that they wanted to publish to the play. And I made a vow to myself. I remember when I was like 25 and I said, I'll get the pig to play published. Speaker 3:By the time I turned 30 and mixed, [inaudible] called me and said to come over. And I held the copy, the first copy of the domestic crusaders a day after I turned 30, November 2nd, 2010. So somehow, you know, it was interesting like it took an Egyptian scholar, uh, and I think there was also [00:10:30] an Algerian scholar in London who have written about and under thesis on it to kind of get me off my ass to get it published. It gets published here in mixed Sweeney's and the barrier and get get being taught now kind of across America and across the Atlantic. So it's, it's a wild story but probably probably the TV show pilot that you've written with Dave. It's based on the domestic crusaders, correct? No, it's completely original idea that we had. And um, I read that Atlantic article [00:11:00] and it sounds like you've pulled back from HBO because you didn't, it didn't really, they were taking it in to an area that you didn't want to go. And I wanted to ask you about that. Like how is your story different from the TV show all American Muslim and why did you guys feel that maybe America isn't ready for it yet or I don't know. Speaker 3:We still think Americans ready for it. We think America domestic, we actually were ahead of the curve because I think the TV shows about Yemeni American Muslims. [00:11:30] It's about the American Muslim community of the bay area and the lead character is MJ and [inaudible], yet many American immigrants who becomes one of the fastest rising detectives of the SFPD. Now we get over this idea like three and a half years ago, anyone who's been paying attention to international news, there's a country which is in all the headlines Right now. Yemen and HBO was a fantastic partner and they really dug the idea that we pitched. However, we wrote this kind of during the Heyday [00:12:00] of homeland and walking down and in and, but we kind of realized prior second draft that I think HBO just creatively wanting to go into more John [inaudible], John Rhe driven shows and ours was, remains a very unique different type of beast. Speaker 3:It has its own pace. It has its own tone as his own sense of humor. It's not, it's something deliberately unlike what you've seen on television, right? Like television, HBO would go for something like that. They do choose [00:12:30] odd, you know, they're, you're kind of ahead of the curve in that way. So I'm still maybe, you know, look, two things could have happened. Maybe this was their cup of tea. They pass on good shows all the time and good people pass on good shows or B, maybe they started, it sucked. And so Dave and I are like, maybe our pilot sucks. And, but secretly, secretly, deep down we knew it did it. You know, it's one of those things, you know, if it's good or not. And so I'm kind of a stubborn piece of crap, if you will. And if I believe in something, and same of the day [00:13:00] we don't, we don't let it die. Speaker 3:And so we've been pushing it and once we finally publish it on [inaudible], I think two months ago that I wrote an essay about in the Atlantic, it just seems like anyone who's read the piece, right. But even in Hollywood, I got some meetings with Hollywood agents. We all liked the pilot. That's the funny thing. No one says the [inaudible]. Everyone digs it. The question remains, is there a quote unquote market for us? And I think that's the problem with mainstream media and mainstream Hollywood is that there's this fear as this hesitation that, [00:13:30] okay, if you have a, I'll do an example, a totally different story, but I was pitching another pilot and basically all these, you know, studio heads and agents, par agents met and they're like, great idea, but we can't find a bankable Arab American lead. And I'm like, you'll need a bank of oil Arab American lead. Speaker 3:You just need someone who's good. But that just goes to shoot the mindset of not only Hollywood but also Wall Street. You know, the color of the matters in the end is green. So right now they're like, they kept pitching some names, which was hilarious. Like how about as these, I'm sorry, I'm like, I love these. [00:14:00] I'm sorry. Is it really a San Francisco police detective? You really listen to this? I got nothing again through these. I'm sure you can pull it off, but the point, I'm trying to say that it came down to that bankability and so Dave and I to this day, I'm like, just have faith in it. Make a pilot. Anyone who's read the script, like everyone has read the ship, knock on woods. This is dope. This is unique. This is needed. This was necessary. This is really good. [00:14:30] So I'm going to still push it. And now we finally have the interest a couple of years after it was written. So let's hope that let's cross our fingers. I just want to get up, get out of it. Speaker 2:You're listening to method to the madness on KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM and we're speaking with, with Giachali, a author, lawyer, playwright, s e s in places like the Washington Post and the Guardian Salon Atlantic. He's a expert in Muslim American affairs and host of Al Jazeera America, social media driven [00:15:00] talk show the stream and Lisa keeper. And I interviewed him over the phone and we talked about how did he take the leap from graduating with a law degree to becoming a commentator on TV. Speaker 3:I, I graduated from law school, uh, I think I was about 26. It was 2007. And you guys remember what happened in 2008 and that was right at the cusp of this, you know, this, this great recession and I could not find a job to save my life despite [00:15:30] my best efforts. And despite like all these big companies taking a lot of interest in. So I moved back to my, my house, which was my parents house. And I'm like literally sitting in my college bedroom broke as a licensed attorney. You know, she just turned 27. And my father every day used to put $5 in my wallet cause he said, no man should be without $5. You know, I'm getting South Asian groceries from my mom and I'm feeling miserable and like I'm feeling pitied. And essentially I spent the first half of the day, like [00:16:00] cranky out resumes. Speaker 3:I really worked hard, just nothing stuck, nothing stuck. And, uh, on a whim and just like, you know, madness, I'm like, I just crank out an essay. And at that time, if you guys remember, the Blackwater scandal was all and used in 2007, and Blackwater was a private military contractor, uh, still has that, had committed a lot of atrocities in Iraq. And I'm like, wow. In my second year of law school, I actually wrote a paper on private military firms in Iraq and the legality of such firms in Iraq. So I said, since I know about this [00:16:30] one, I transformed my 30 page paper and look at five page essay. I wrote the essay, I sent it to counterpunch on a whim counter punch, published it and said this was really good. You know, anytime you get something else, send it our way. I said word. Speaker 3:I said, okay. So then next week I send them something else. I said, fantastic. Send us something else. The next week I sent him something else. And then there was another website started from a UC Berkeley Grad Shahad the amount of the Altima, muslim.com he saw domestic crusader as in its first incarnation at the open public library. [00:17:00] And he followed my career and he said, hey, if you ever want to write for us, write for us. So I did in the period of about six months on a whim, I think I ended up cracking down like 50 pieces. I was at the Tasmanian Devil owes a man possessed and I didn't know what I was doing right? Like I just literally had a broken yellow Ethan and cable attached to a dying Fujitsu Laptop in my bedroom of my parents' home with two months fans on my shirts. And I, I literally crank out article after article interview after interview and I bought six [00:17:30] or seven months in, I got this invitation at the UC Berkeley, not the Berkeley one. Speaker 3:Once I graduate theology center right by UC Berkeley. Right. GTU and they're like, hey Carnegie has given us a funding to host like something on journalism and can you come as a new media journalist and talk about new media to these old school journalists? I'm like, who am I? Why are you inviting me? And they're like, oh cause you're a new media journalist. I'm like, I am. Okay. I have no idea. So they started referring to me as a new media journalist and as an interviewer and as [00:18:00] a SAS. And then, you know, at that time I was like, who am I? I'm just one guy living in Fremont. I'm not going to do commentary pieces. But on a whim, on the whim, asa foleys, who became elected president, what was chosen as president does the party one in Pakistan, he hugged, if you remember Sarah Palin, it's like 2008 and so I was sitting there and I'm like, I've got to write something. Speaker 3:So on a whim, I cranked out kind of Jericho, but serious, a thousand word essay. [00:18:30] And I had this one contact from the Guardian. I sent it to him. I'm like, he's never gonna respond to me. Richard Adams from the Guardian response back within two hours. So I love this essay, I'm going to publish it tomorrow, send me any other pitches you've got. So I'm like, okay. And so now I became a commentator. And so one thing led to another and then I made the leap to like SAS to national team. And then I'm curious, what was your seamless, my theme was basically I used this very awkward social interaction [00:19:00] as a metaphor for the dysfunctional volatile relationship between the United States and Pakistan, and I just kind of put it in the context of modern history and I kind of had some tongue in cheek comments about us. Speaker 3:I believe there was already and Sarah Helen as political neophytes, who somehow might be able to control nuclear nations. It was a terrifying prospect for the future of the world, both the United States, Canada, Pakistan, and a little bit tongue in cheek, but it was grounded in reality and in facts. And so [00:19:30] as this was happening, I ended up, I was also a solo attorney paying my bills as this was happening. I also made the vow, this was 2008 that by 2009 nine 11 I would premiere my play, the domestic crusaders in New York. And the reason why I said that it was as if there's a dude named Barack Hussein. Obama might become president and maybe that play I wrote six years ago might be more valuable at a topical now than ever before. So sitting there like literally with my broken [00:20:00] fcoe Ethernet cable, I somehow plotted this ambitious vision and long story short, you know I ended up merging these three or four careers into one and everyone at that time laughed at me. Speaker 3:They're like, you can only be one thing. You can only be an attorney or you can be a writer or it can be a journalist or a blogger or a playwright who can be any of the above. It can be all of the above. And I really rejected that and said, I think I'm going to try all of the above and below. You hold those people and [00:20:30] that's why I kind of made the leap. It wasn't necessarily a leap, Ali, it was like this long lonely uphill trudge towards the tour, the synthesizing, if you will, all these interests, we can kind of think about it. It's all anchored in storytelling as well. How we start off this conversation and that's how I made the condition. Took a couple of years, I finally pulled it off. You wrote your short, credible, you wrote this incredible report that really called out some people that it called Fear Inc roots of the Islamophobia Network [00:21:00] in America. Speaker 3:That was, I guess that was more political than, well it's all political, but that put you in the spotlight. That was something that happened as a result of all this crazy stuff that I just described for the past five minutes of history. How the world works out. Center for American progress is a, you know, a think tank in Washington d C and many people call it, you know, quote Unquote Obama think tank. It's very, you know, progressive, Democrat friendly. And I knew [00:21:30] some of those folks who were following my storyteller, SAS playwright career and in the summer, excuse me, in the spring of 2011 they're like, hey, we want to think outside of the box. Would you be willing to lead the research on this project that we have of exposing what we call these [inaudible] phobia network in America? You know, part of my essays and cometary, they knew that I was kind of exposing these anti Muslim memes and bigots were trumpeting scapegoating and fear-mongering, especially after the 2010 [00:22:00] ground zero mosque controversy that was neither a ground zero nor a mosque. Speaker 3:And they said, you know, you're a non DC guy, maybe you should lead it. And I said, sure. It sounds like an interesting project. I've never done it before. Why not? And it's small little report that was supposed to be a 20 page expo a I ended up, it was just supposed to take me two months that have taken me six months and my first draft was like 180 pages and center for American progress. Looked at it and they're like, you're crazy. Like they literally looked at it like I've mapped it out right. They're like, you're nuts. We don't believe you. And they did an audit of [00:22:30] it for two months. Like okay, okay, you're right. And then report, it ended up being this hundred and 38 page report investigative report called Fear Inc the roots of the Islamophobia network in Americans. That was published in August, 2011 and you, knock on wood, I'm very proud of it. Speaker 3:It ends up ended up being a seminal report, kind of a very foundational report. A lot of people still use to this day resource everywhere you had exposed a lot of these players we can name in a second. And a lot of these means that have unfortunately come from the fringe [00:23:00] that have been mainstreamed, especially after the election of Barack Obama. And especially after like, you know, the 2010 guns or moss controversies such as, you know, Sharita as a threat to America. Uh, you know, uh, mosques are Trojan horses. There's no such thing as peaceful Islam. Uh, traditional Islam is radical Islam. If you're a practicing Muslim, you cannot be a loyal American. You know, these fringe means. Uh, we saw, we just saw recently 2012, uh, elections in nearly every single Republican presidential [00:23:30] candidate ran with the Anti Sharia mean for both money and votes. Speaker 3:We just saw, like last month, governor of Louisiana, Bobby Jindal, he followed the lead of an Islamophobe though we, uh, outed Steve Emerson and said, there's go zones in America. These Shiria infested sounds were Muslims have taken over and they've like, you know, like apparently sprayed their Shiria everywhere and non Muslims are not allowed to come. And you know, he's doubled, you know, he's doubled down on this rhetoric and he knows better, but he's doubling [00:24:00] down on this river because he knows it plays to his base. And you know, President Obama is a Muslim and, and so forth and so forth. So what we did is I mapped it out. Uh, we made it very digestible, connected the dots, traced the funding, and showed the genesis quite clearly the genesis of how a very few interconnected incestuous group of people, very few people were able to create. And then mainstream, uh, these fictitious threats that to marginalized, [00:24:30] uh, American Muslims from America's political civic and social sphere and how it is ultimately dangerous knowledge to America's cultural fabric, but also threatens our national security. And as you, and we've seen example after example and thankfully that has become a foundational resource for not just Americans but also in Europe right now. You see what's happening. Speaker 2:So I'm very glad about that. I'm talking about the report you're listening to KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM and this is method to the madness. We're interviewing [inaudible] [00:25:00] Ali, UC Berkeley graduate and lawyer, playwright SAS and host of Al Jazeera as social media driven talk show the stream. He joined us via phone bridge from Washington DC to talk about the Muslim American experience in America. And we asked him about what he thinks the biggest challenges are facing Muslim Americans today. I want to put this in proper context. I think American Muslims really look at it. Speaker 3:Birds [00:25:30] eye view. It's a success story. And like we have tremendous privileges, uh, unlike other minority groups that have gone through the similar hazing. Yes, we have deep, unique problems and you know, this lot of phobia, anti Muslim bigotry, especially the fact that now it's at a global scale, the local becomes a national becomes, you know, the global story with a tweet or a youtube video. But at the same time, you know, we're the most diverse religious community in America. American Muslim women are the most educated women of any religious group, right behind Jewish American women, [00:26:00] uh, as a group where, you know, educated, uh, above average income, uh, you know, quote unquote moderate mainstream, whatever that means. That's good words. Uh, you know, renounce audit volume extremisms so many of us have achieved, if you will, the American dream. I think the problem internally for American Muslims is whether or not we choose to be spectators or participants. Speaker 3:And what I mean by that is oftentimes, especially with immigrant communities, there was a, don't rock the boat, keep your head down, have a checklist [00:26:30] of success and follow the safe path. Um, and often times we kind of, if you will, have helped this marginal marginalization of American Muslims happen by not investing in storytelling. 90%. It's a American Muslims. And when they did a pull it like 2001, we're either doctors, engineers, or business. So that leaves me about 10, 11% for teachers, activists, politicians, journalists, directors, uh, you know, and so forth. And I think [00:27:00] if you deprive yourself of the opportunity to be a cultural creator, if you deprive yourself of the opportunity to become a participant, if you deprive yourself of becoming a protagonist of not only your own narrative but the American narrative, at the end of the day, you can kind of only blame yourself for being on the margins or being a footnote or being a sidekick or being an antagonist. Speaker 3:And I think it'd be the, the major struggle for American Muslims is how to not lose hope in, uh, themselves and not to lose hope [00:27:30] in America, especially when they are facing an uphill challenge where it seems that they seem besieged by so many palms. I forget. It's like an avalanche every, every step. Uh, everywhere you go, you want to get out of the muck and then isis they want get out of the muck and all kinds of the Arabian peninsula you want to get out of the muck and some loans radical. And then you're always defensive, right? You're always interrogated and you're always asked to prove that you're a moderate. You're always asked to prove your loyalty. And I think it can be easily exhausting for an American Muslim and it [00:28:00] could easily be defeating. And I think that struggle is to have faith in the best, best aspects of ourselves and the best aspects of this country, of the best aspects of our community members to kind of unite in solidarity over shared values and really invest proactively as storytellers. Speaker 3:And sometimes that requires bum rushing the show and doing things on your own, right? If cold, cold, mainstream media or mainstream politics does not have you as a protagonist, where are you going to do? Are you [00:28:30] going to drink your chat as a spectator whine and complain? Or are you gonna use your village's privileged to throw down and bum rush the show? And it might take a little bit of time, but at least you move forward. I think that's something that is very pivotal, not only for a sense of identity and only first sense of swagger and only person's confidence, not only first month of wellbeing, the only sense of creating a positive proactive narrative for this generation, future generations, but also think for honoring this anti Muslim bigotry that [00:29:00] it's poisonous for our national security. And I also think it provides a microcosm of what America will have to do if it wants to emerge as the best version of itself as it approaches a minority and majority country, the way America treats us minorities and the way we treat our marginalized communities, it will be the fault line of how we will either emerge or fail. Speaker 3:I think as a nation, I think that's a big test. Speaker 2:That was what Jihad Ali on Calyx is method to the madness. Now, 30 [00:29:30] minute talk show every other Friday that explores the innovative spirit of the bay area. Well, John is a UC Berkeley graduate, a lawyer, a playwright, essayist consultants, the U S State Department and host of Al Jazeera America's social media driven talk show the stream. Very proud of the work he's doing to communicate the Muslim American experience in America. If you want to follow more of which odds work, follow him on Twitter with his handle at YJ hot Ali. That's w a j. A. H. A T, a. L. I [00:30:00] on Twitter. That's it for our program today. Thanks for joining and special thanks to my partner in crime, Lisa Key for setting up this interview and making it all happen. With that, we'll turn it back over to the music. Have a great Friday. Everybody. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Professor John T. Clarke discusses the goals of the Mars Maven Mission.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:You're listening to KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM, university of California listener supported radio. And this is method to the madness coming at you from the Public Affairs Department here at Calex, celebrating the innovative spirit of the bay area and beyond. I'm your host. Eileen is r and today we're lucky enough to have with us professor John Clark from Boston University. Hello professor. How are you? Speaker 2:Hello. Good, thanks for having me on. Speaker 1:And Professor Clark, uh, happened to be here in Berkeley and so we got him on the show to talk about, um, [00:00:30] and innovation of his that is now, um, orbiting the planet Mars. The is shell spectrograph. So we want to talk about this and learn a little bit more about it. But first, um, I always start the show talking to someone who's invented something with the same question. What was the problem statement that you trying to solve? Speaker 2:Uh, okay, so this goes back quite a ways. Um, I trained as an astrophysicist and I built experiments to fly in space and try to analyze the data to answer particular [00:01:00] questions. Uh, the system that is flying now at Mars addresses one question, but it started about 25 years ago. Um, I was using another telescope to look at the atmosphere of Jupiter and there was something that we didn't understand and we used that instrument in an unusual way that it wasn't designed really to do. And we were able to figure out what was going on there. So I got the idea and then I built a prototype for this, a shell [00:01:30] spectrograph, um, to fly basically on a test bed on a rocket that just goes up in the space and comes right back down. You only get about five minutes of data. That's called a sounding rocket. Speaker 2:So let me back up a step. A spectrograph is a device that disperses light into the different wavelengths, the spectrum of colors and a usual, a normal spectrograph would have a certain resolution that refers to how much the light is spread out in wavelength. And a shell was a particular [00:02:00] kind of system that uses a different kinds of dispersing optic called an a shell grading. And it spreads the light out a lot more than a usual system. And to do that, you only get a look at a small part of the color spectrum, but you'd get a very good resolution on the different colors or wavelengths. Speaker 1:Now are there different, um, can you see all parts of the spectrum, just basically what it's trained on or is it only a certain part of the spectrum that it can see? Is there a specific thing you're looking for with the magnification [00:02:30] it gives you, Speaker 2:yeah, I mean, I can do an analogy here. If you are up on grizzly peak looking to her mouth, Tablo Pius low resolution system would see from Mount Tam to San Francisco and Michelle was zoomed in on the peak of Mount Tamela pious and get good resolution on that, but not be able to see anything else. Speaker 1:Ah, okay. So the problem statement of the shell spectrograph is to get deeper into the analysis of certain parts of the atmosphere by magnifying it. Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. It actually magnifies spectrum, [00:03:00] the color spectrum rather than the atmosphere itself. Speaker 1:So as a, as a scientist, um, when you, you recognize the need for this, um, how do you go about, you know, starting to build something like this and now you started this 25 years ago. So I want to kind of go through the story and understand how we've gotten from there to here. But when you first understood, wow, there's a need for this, how do you go about, do you have to go get grant funding or how does that work? Speaker 2:Well, yeah, you start out writing a proposal and maybe calling the person at NASA who would be able to find you, have [00:03:30] a conversation about whether they would be a light to see this kind of a, of a proposal. And I did that when I was assistant professor back in the late eighties and they agreed and then it took several years to develop the system and fly it. And it flew several times on these sounding rockets before we had the opportunity to propose it for this mission to Mars. Speaker 1:Hmm. So, uh, taking a step back real quick. So let's talk a little bit about your background. So your astrophysicists, where did you do your studies? Speaker 2:[00:04:00] Well, I went undergraduate at Denison University in Ohio. I went Grad School in Physics at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore. And from Hopkins I came out to Berkeley to the space sciences lab up on the hill for my first job after Grad school. What were you doing up there? I was doing the same general kind of thing I'm doing now, but I was doing it from ground-based telescopes. I spent a lot of time at Lick Observatory and Mount Hamilton in the South Bay. Speaker 1:Okay. And so, uh, from that point you got, did you became an assistant [00:04:30] professor and you saw you were working with a, uh, a telescope that was looking at Jupiter, is that right? Speaker 2:Yeah, so this was a NASA facility. There was an, a very high orbit around the earth. It's called the international ultraviolet explorer. And that's where I got the idea from Jupiter and then I realized I could apply the same kind of instrument to other planets and other problems. Speaker 1:And so, um, you started to build it, you did some space flights or I'm sorry, some, um, some tax space test space flights [00:05:00] to test the feasibility of it. And um, and this seems like it was a, it's like all kind of a lifetime project, right? You're, you're going to balance it, you know, teaching and doing your regular stuff. And this is a long term project. So take us from the time that you start doing the sample flights to now it's on the, this latest, um, mission to Mars who, tell us about that process. How do you get from kind of the samples to actually getting it onto, I'm sure lots of scientists are trying to bolt things onto something that's going to get orbit Mars. Speaker 2:Yeah, [00:05:30] it's very competitive. Um, and this is not the only thing I was doing research wise, but it was one thing kind of on the back burner for awhile. Um, in 2005, I joined the small group of people from University of Colorado and from Berkeley who were planning to propose for a small, relatively small mission to Mars. Um, so we started meeting in 2005. Uh, it was accepted in 2008 and it was launched in 2013 and it arrived at Maurice this past September and [00:06:00] we're now getting data back. So it's a long process. There's no guarantee it's going to go and there's no guarantee it's going to work even if it's funded. And, and they agreed to launch it. Speaker 1:So what is this? It's called the Maven, right? The via in it. Exactly. What is the a, the Mars Maven Maven Speaker 2:as a mission that stands, it's an acronym. Stands for Mars atmosphere. Volatile evolution experiment. So this is basically a global climate change mission for Mars to try to learn about how Mars has evolved [00:06:30] over its lifetime. In what ways have may be similar to the earth or have been similar to the earth when it was young. And in a nutshell, we think that Mars started out like the earth oceans of water. There is a lot of evidence on the surface of Mars today. You can see what looks just like river channels in flowing patterns, but it's dry. It's very dry today. Any water that's there is locked up in the polar ice caps or maybe into the surface itself like a permafrost. So the purpose of Navan [00:07:00] is to not land. There's no, um, rover a maven. It's orbiting around and through the atmosphere of Mars and trying to figure out the detailed physical principles by which the atmosphere of Mars is changing today. And then we could extrapolate back in time and understand what Mars was like in the past. Speaker 1:So is the hypothesis that, um, we can, um, try to understand better how to head off our own potential losing our oceans [00:07:30] by studying Mars or what, what's the, is it, is there that much of a analog that we can draw between that planet and our planet? Speaker 2:Well, you're painting a very particular picture there and worth looking more at a big picture. If we went to understand how planets in general work, we'd like to understand Mars that could teach us something about the earth. We're not really trying to save the Earth by sending a mission to Mars. Uh, we'd like to understand more of these principles to understand these exoplanets that are being found today around other stars. Speaker 1:[00:08:00] Yeah. And tell us about those exoplanets. What are, what are those that are being found today? These new discoveries, right. Speaker 2:There are new discoveries. The, um, technique by which these are found is the reflex motion of the star response to the gravity of the planet. So the first ones that were found were giant planets that were very close to the star. And now as the method improves, we're finding smaller planets farther away. We're not yet at the point of finding an earth, but it's getting close. Speaker 1:So we're, we're speaking with Professor John Clark, uh, [00:08:30] um, from, uh, Boston University who's, uh, luckily here in Berkeley to talk to us about, uh, the shell spectrograph that he has developed that is on the Mars Maven, um, and is, uh, helping to analyze the atmosphere of Mars. So I have one, you know, as a layman who knows nothing about this stuff, there's one thing I don't understand at all is the time lag between information gathered by Maven, right. And coming back to Earth, like how long does that take? Speaker 2:[00:09:00] Uh, well, it's minutes. It's not hours. Um, it's, uh, on the order of maybe 10 minutes. It varies a lot depending on where nick, the, uh, Mars and the earth are in their orbits around the sun. The distance can change dramatically, um, from one time of the year to another. Speaker 1:What's the mechanism through which the information is sent? Speaker 2:It's just a radio transmitter, just like Cadillacs, a little more, well, not probably not more powerful, but it's beamed back toward the earth and their large dishes on the earth, they pick up the signal. [00:09:30] So we send commands to the spacecraft and we get the data down. Speaker 1:Same Way. Wow. So it's, it's, it's, I'm much faster than I would've thought I would have. Like you hear about like these telescopes that go into deep space and, and you know, they're sending images back, but you don't even know if that telescope still exists. But I guess this is totally different because some closer away. So, um, what are the, it's, it's been orbiting Mars for the last six months or so, right? Correct. So what, what are, what are, what are you guys finding? Speaker 2:[00:10:00] Um, we're just, uh, still in the early phases of, of learning about Mars. When you first get a mission to another planet, like this one, the first thing you do is turn everything on and test it out. And you test your ability to command it, to have the onboard computer, do things in the right order and at the right time. And there's always a process of a few months where you understand how it works and, and, and fix things basically. Um, fortunately Neva is working very well. There've been some little hiccups, but basically everything's working. [00:10:30] Uh, we then get getting data back and we're now getting into more of a routine mode where we do the same thing every orbit around Mars. And then we can build up measurements over the course of a Mars year, a Mars orbit around the sun, and start to understand some of these physicals, Speaker 1:the principles. So, um, the, uh, and how long has a Mars year? Last year was about two or three years to earth years. So, and is there a, an expected lifespan of the Maven? Um, uh, is, [00:11:00] is it just called? It's, it's a satellite spacecraft. Yeah. Speaker 2:Yeah. It is a satellite. Um, it's expected to last for five to 10 years. It's built to last a long time. The prime mission for Maven is one earth year around Mars, but we expect that it would be continued for a second earth year to get one full Mars orbit around the sun. And the science team would like to go longer than that. Speaker 1:And so how did, like your involvement, cause you have one part portion of it. Yeah. Um, how, um, how does it work? Is [00:11:30] Do you have like a, I don't, I suppose you have like an iPhone app that's giving you data. I mean, where do you guys collect the information and is it, can you be constantly harvesting the information from your computer or is there different feeds coming from my phone? It's on air book. Nice. Speaker 2:Um, I mean the data come down, they go to the Lockheed's plant south of Denver and then they come to the science centers. And I would like to point out that the lab at Berkeley, the space sciences lab built several of the instruments that are on maven and several of the instruments were built, the University of Colorado. [00:12:00] And I have one channel of one instrument building Colorado. Speaker 1:Okay. And so your, your channel is, the shell spend should respect it is which is a sending back data. And what exactly in the atmosphere as the shell spectrograph looking at in Mars? Speaker 2:That's a good question. The shell spectrograph was designed to measure the ratio of deterioration to hydrogen in the upper atmosphere of Mars. So deterioration is like heavy water. It's a proton with a neutron in it and it has twice the mass of [00:12:30] a hydrogen atom. Um, the, the quick picture here is that when Mars was young, we think it had a lot of water. We think a lot of that water boiled off in the space. The gravity of Mars is only about one quarter of the gravity of the earth. So we think it lost a lot of its atmosphere. They just floated away. Well, it didn't float. Some of the atoms have enough velocity in their head pointing up. They can escape the gravity. It's a small fraction. But if that happened and water was lost water, we break up into hydrogen and oxygen [00:13:00] and about one and a 10 or a hundred thousand of those hydrogens would be deterioration. Now the hydrogen would boil off faster than the deterioration because it's half the mass. So if you lost a lot of water over time, there'd be more deterioration. And the ratio of those two gives you an idea of how much water was lost over the history of the planet. How long do you Speaker 1:thank you? It'll take to, to um, collect enough data for you to have enough to do your extrapolation that you want to make? Speaker 2:Well, we have [00:13:30] a quick look. Now we know that it's working. We're measuring deterioration and hydrogen. Now we get down into the gritty details of exactly how you analyze that and how accurately you can pin down, um, the numbers. But we don't want to just measure it to turn into hydrogen at one time. We want to look at Mars at different latitudes over the course of its seasons and find out if there are variations in the amount of deterioration in the atmosphere. Speaker 1:Now as an astro physicist, um, what is your, um, opinion of, you know, it seems like [00:14:00] the NASA has shifted years under the Obama, one of his big access to stop the space shuttle program and focus on, uh, more of these types of scientific endeavors. Is this the right move for, for us to be doing right now is going further out and looking at Mars and potentially further exploration? Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean if you ask a scientist, they'll say that robotic exploration is the way to go. It's much less expensive. You don't put anybody's life at risk and we can build very [00:14:30] good instruments to send to the other planets. But a lot of people also believe in and support, um, human space flight and getting away from low earth orbit. And that's another thrust of the current, uh, NASA space program. Speaker 1:So, uh, and so the robots like those rovers on Mars and, and Maven is communicating with those rovers. Right? Speaker 2:Uh, it's not, it's just with the earth. Speaker 1:Oh, okay. I thought that there was a relay is there's an ability for it to really, Speaker 2:ah, right. So you're ahead of me here. So maven was built by NASA [00:15:00] with a relay, so that in the future, after the maven science is more or less complete, they will change the orbit and then use the maven spacecraft to relay data from landers on the ground back to the earth in both Speaker 1:after it's kind of primary or first mission is complete. Right. So tell them, tell me a little bit, you know, and we're talking to professor John Clark from Boston University who is a part of the, uh, Mars maven team about the mission to Mars and the Michele spectrograph, [00:15:30] which he invented to help, uh, understand the atmosphere of Mars and climate change on Mars. So tell us a little bit about, um, just the, the scale of building something like a satellite that goes to Mars to figure out this problem. Like, we talked a little bit about it, but how long does it take? How many people are involved? Seems like a really big endeavor. Speaker 2:It is a big endeavor. We started out in 2005 with maybe a dozen, 15 people around the table thinking about how [00:16:00] we'd write the proposal. Um, it ended up with probably at one point a a hundred, 200 people. I'm working on developing the spacecraft and the instruments and testing them. Uh, the instruments were built at different labs around the country. Um, and then they were put together at Lucky's plant, south of Denver. The whole thing was tested. Um, and there's a lot of testing that goes on, um, with these missions cause it's, uh, you know, you launch these things, you can't go back if anything goes wrong. It's like building a car to [00:16:30] last for 10 years without ever changing the oil or filling the gas tank and you know, things can go wrong. Um, so there's very thorough testing on these things. Speaker 1:What's the failure rate of these types of, I mean, I'm sure that the level of testing is beyond what anybody could really imagine, but is what's the failure rate of these types of missions? Speaker 2:Well, if you run it long enough, something will fail 100%. What you want to do is make sure that it's built to last longer than what you need it to do. And this [00:17:00] has gotten very good at this. Um, Lockheed builds very good spacecraft. NASA builds very good instruments. The, um, so you think about a timeline for these things and how long they're going to go. And, um, I'm thinking of a, of an anecdote. I worked for NASA when I was younger and I was at the space flight center in Huntsville, Alabama where Wernher von Brown worked and they still told stories about him and they asked him, how do you make these, these rockets, you know, how do you make them work? It's very risky. Hard [00:17:30] to do. He said, well, we design it and we build it and then we tested until it breaks and then we figure out what went wrong and we tested again and we do that until it doesn't break and then it's ready to fly. So it's the testing program that's more important than trying to figure out everything that can go wrong. Speaker 1:Yeah. And so I'm, I'm a software, so I understand testing software and coming up with, you know, unit tests and system tests and really, really running through that rigor. But I would think that the level of rigor on something like this [00:18:00] must be much, much, um, greater than, than I could imagine. Is there a certain protocol that, you know, NASA puts everything that's going to go into space through that, you know, it has to pass, you know, 50 million checklists or whatever it is, or how does that work? Speaker 2:Right. There is a protocol. You will test it by vibrating the instrument, simulating the vibration of launch. You'll put it through a temperature cycle, hot and cold, more than the range you think we'll experience in space. You have to put it in a vacuum [00:18:30] to simulate the vacuum of space. There are all kinds of things like that. But the other trick that the aerospace industry and NASA use is to try to use things that have flown before that worked and not try something that's brand new, you know, improve the technology gradually and not just start from scratch. Speaker 1:So there's this, there's learnings from the 1960s missions that are kind of baked into, we just continually improve, improve, improve. Speaker 2:Yeah. But there's probably not much left from the 60s, I hope. [00:19:00] But it is Speaker 1:gradual process. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Well, um, you know what, one question that I wanted to ask you about is, uh, the, there's a certain, um, it seems like the, you know, our, um, humanities race into spaces evolved quite a bit. You know, if I Harken back to the 60s, you had a big competition, but now it seems like there's a lot more collaboration. Is that, is that from an, from a layman's perspective, that's the way it looks. Is that accurate or, we have this, you have just one [00:19:30] international space station and everybody kind of shares. And, um, so is there other other countries involved on the Maven or is it this is a NASA, Speaker 2:we have several European co-investigators. Scientific co-investigators. That's correct. Yeah. And A, we have a couple of people from Japan who are participating in the science, uh, but there's still somewhat of a competition between nations. Okay. The, uh, the Chinese who are trying to do things on their own without getting help from other countries. And, uh, I think that if China landed [00:20:00] on the moon, that might help us in terms of getting this country behind, going back and doing more things in space. Speaker 1:So do you think that there's still much to explore on the moon? We've, we've kind of given up that, uh, before we, we've given up that mission before you really figured out everything and we should've, Speaker 2:well, to me, we've learned a lot about the moon and we should be moving on and doing other things. Um, but I support, um, human space flight. Um, I personally suspect that the future of human space [00:20:30] flight is more in private companies. It might be space x, Elon Musk going to Mars, um, before the government does. And partly I say that just because companies are willing to take on more risk and do things less expensively than the government is. Speaker 1:Yeah. And, and uh, and be more disruptive but potentially be, um, more dangerous. You know, that, that's the scary part of that too. Is that what kind of, there's probably no regulation of space level or maybe there is, I don't know. Speaker 2:Well, the more risk [00:21:00] you take, the more accidents there will be. I think that's true and I expect that things will go wrong. Um, but we know a lot already in terms of building rockets and flying things, launching things into space. And private companies today can take advantage of that history of knowledge and hopefully things will go well. But in the early days of aviation, there were accidents and people got hurt, but they kept going. And that's, I think, the kind of spirit that you need to have. Speaker 1:Yeah, sure. I mean, all great explorers. [00:21:30] They're all gonna eat to cat or yeah. Serious risks with a life and limb. Yeah. I'm the worst. We're speaking with Professor John Clark from Boston University here. Kayla likes Berkeley 90.7 FM. He's a part of the Mars maven team. Uh, it's a satellite that's now orbiting Mars that is, um, uh, sending back information about the atmosphere and climate change on that planet. Um, and Professor Clark also teaches, uh, actively teaches at Boston University. What, what are you teaching there? Right now? Speaker 2:I'm in the department of astronomy. [00:22:00] I teach planetary science, uh, intro astronomy all the way from non-science major undergraduates to advanced Grad students. Speaker 1:Okay. Well I wanted to ask you about, um, you know, as someone who's studied this as a career, what is the, um, you know, in our lifetime we were to say like the next 50 years, what would you say are the big milestones in terms of space exploration that are attainable for us as a race? Speaker 2:Wow. 50 years is kind of a long horizon. Um, [00:22:30] and it's hard to predict. I th I expect that robotic missions will continue to fly over that time period. Um, I think that human space flight will develop, there are a lot of people who have decided that Mars is the place for human beings to go next. It's, um, it's very risky. There's a lot of questions about radiation, about keeping people healthy. Um, it's not going to be an easy thing to do, but I can see that happening in less than 50 years. Yeah. Now, another thing that I find [00:23:00] more interesting in the shorter term, like 10, 10 ish years, is these, um, these things like virgin galactic where they're building ways to take people up into space and come right back down. And I think that, um, a lot of people alive today will have the choice of the cost will come down as they do it more and more. I think they'll have the choice of buying a car or flying in space. It'll be at that cost level. Speaker 1:But flying is patients on a Lark just to experience zero gravity or to actually [00:23:30] go from one part of the planet to the other. Speaker 2:So when I go into a room with a bunch of students, I ask them if you could spend 20 k and flying the space, how many of you would do it? And I wait about three seconds. And then I say, if your hand isn't up, you're not going to do it. If you're thinking about whether it's a idea, yeah, you're not the ones who will be on these first slides. Speaker 1:So it's going to be some kind of a, a something for the Uber rich kind of like to say, Oh yeah, I've been in space. That kind of thing. Speaker 2:A lot of people can afford to buy a car and they might prefer to ride the bus and have the experience [00:24:00] of flying in space. Speaker 1:Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Um, what about, um, as we find these more exoplanets, um, what is your, what is your feeling on what's out there? Is there, is there life out there that we're going to be, um, able to, I know it's the million dollar question by you, someone who's studied this your whole career probably. So what's your feeling? Speaker 2:Um, well I don't, I won't give you any feelings, but I thought about it. We see so many other stars, so many other galaxies and now we're finding so many planets [00:24:30] around nearby stars. It's become clear that most stars have planets around them. They're very common. They're just, if you look at the numbers that are going to be so many of them out there, that there have to be a lot of them that are similar to the earth. And there may be forms of life that we have not dreamt of that could be on other kinds of planets. So if you just look at the numbers, the Azar, there's life all over the universe. So that's the good news. Now the other news is that as far as we know, nothing can travel faster than the speed of light [00:25:00] and at that speed there may be life all over the universe and we'll never find it just because of the distance. It's going to be hard. It may be close by. Okay. I'm not saying it's impossible, but most of it we will probably never be in contact with. Speaker 1:Do you think we'll ever be able to really know? You know, explain it. I mean this is the big question. You know, you have like religion versus science and there's this big leap of faith. You kind of have to take it either way. Like you're saying there, it's probably out there, but how are we ever going to know [00:25:30] unless they come? Someone does can travel faster than the speed of light and show up in our doorstep. Speaker 2:Well, what I described is what we understand today. Now I'm willing to change my mind that the drop Speaker 3:you're a scientist, Speaker 2:it's been, you know, very dangerous to assume that you know too much, uh, throughout history. Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, I always think about 'em, um, as again, someone who is not an astrophysicist about star trek, which is a lot of my understanding of this. And they have the, um, the premise that there's [00:26:00] higher, um, forms that are watching us waiting for us to be able to unlock some secrets of interstellar travel. And once we do, then they show up and say, okay, you know, now you have to learn how to responsibly travel. And you know, perhaps that's uh, that's out there cause there's potential to have so many different kinds of life forms up there. So Speaker 2:it's fun to think about and there's a lot we don't know. But another thing that scientists talk about is a thing called the Thermi paradox. And Rico fare made decades ago said, if there's other life in the [00:26:30] universe, where is it? How come we don't know about it? Why haven't they come here and contacted us? And that's a different way of looking at the same question. Speaker 1:Yeah. So, um, uh, in closing the professor John Clark here from Boston University and on KLX Berkeley in 90.7 FM, if you were to kind of wave your magic wand and get your wildest dreams from this maven exploration and the shell spectrograph that you put on it, what would you, what would you find out? What would be the big, you know, victory for you? Speaker 2:We would learn everything we need [00:27:00] to know about the escape of water into space from Mars to be able to go back 3 billion years and know what Mars was like when it was young. Was Mars earth-like and for how long was that earth-like? Long enough for life to begin on Mars, a questions like that. Speaker 1:All right, well hopefully we'll find that out and it's not, it's going to be pretty quick like in the next couple of years. Right. This is the great, well, best of luck. Thanks so much for the exploration you're doing for all of us. Hopefully we'll all get to learn about it. And you can follow, um, [00:27:30] the Mars may even, there's a page on NASA I believe, that you can find. You can just Google a maven and you will see that. And thanks so much for joining us, professor. Speaker 2:It's a pleasure. Thank you. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Interview with Executive Director of Aspiration Tech which helps nonprofits use technologyTRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:You're listening to k a Alex Berkeley 90.7 FM, university of California listener supported radio. And this is method to the madness coming at you from the Public Affairs Department here at Calyx celebrating the innovative spirit of the bay area. I'm your host aliene czar. And today we have Alan Gunn joining us, the executive director of aspiration tech. What's up? Got Her. How you doing? I am well thank you. Thanks for coming to the studio today. Um, and um, uh, Alan is the a r u founder. I am not, you know the founder, but you're the the the leader. I am [00:00:30] aspiration tech. So, um, the first question I always ask the leader of an organization like aspiration tech is, give me the problem statement. What are you trying to solve? Speaker 2:Uh, there are a lot of people working to make positive change in this world. Uh, there's a lot of technology in the world that we know today and the people making positive change in the world rarely are able to make effective use of technology. There's a range of reasons for that from they don't prioritize it to, they get taken advantage of. And I have a somewhat embarrassingly [00:01:00] specific, uh, preoccupation with really focusing on what we call preventive tech care, helping those who are working for social justice to use technology in sustainable ways that supports their mission as opposed to detracting from it. Speaker 1:Yeah. Well that's very concise. Thank you. It's interesting cause I have a little bit experience of this and it's, it's this huge gap between the Social Justice Entrepreneur, I like to call them, who have this really incredible vision and passion. But when you get down to the nuts and bolts of the execution, there's a big gap. [00:01:30] Absolutely. And so how many, um, or tell me first of all, how did aspiration tech come come about? How did this organization get created? Speaker 2:Aspiration was founded in 2001 our founding board chair, Jonathan Pizer, and I'm Melissa Pale Thorpe, was the founding director. They realized that there were not appropriate market dynamics to get the need of nonprofit software created. And so aspiration was initially founded with the idea of actually creating the missing software applications for the U S nonprofit sector. And then, uh, the vision [00:02:00] became more global. Uh, the, the organization sort of realized that as a tiny us NGO, they weren't about to go writing enterprise software. And so, uh, I came in a few years later and sort of reshaped the mission around sort of a different approach to building that same technology capacity. Speaker 1:Okay. And, um, so tell us a little bit about, uh, your client base today. Like how does, how does it work? Have someone come and get services from aspiration tech? Speaker 2:Oh, the simple answer is they ask. Um, we work, uh, with a very broad and diverse [00:02:30] set of stakeholders. We do about half our work in the U S and about the rest, uh, outside the u s around the world. Uh, and we work, as I describe it across the so-called, uh, nonprofit technology supply chain. Grassroots NGOs call us up all the time. One of our most subversive offerings is a free proposal review service. So if a tech vendor has written you a document saying they'll charge you x dollars for deliverable Y, we'll take a look at it and we'll tell you if we think it's a fair deal, we'll look for the hidden intellectual property [00:03:00] clauses and Gotchas and lock-ins. The sad story I tell a lot, because it's true, there's a Bay area nonprofit that we've worked with that uh, the director was leaving and signed a five year, 5,000 a month web hosting contract. Speaker 2:And if you know anything about web hosting, that's a bit high. 500 x exactly. And so, yeah, that's $300,000 down the drain just because they didn't have somebody look at that proposal and didn't put a, an opt out into the contract. And so yeah, I mean, so does [00:03:30] this kind of stuff happen a lot? It does. One of the things that's been most disturbing, I started as an accidental nonprofit techie. I was a silicon valley guy back in the 90s and when I first saw the web, I was like, this could be big. And so I started thinking about how all my Greenpeace housemates and all my other tree hug and friends might use the web. I specialized in criminally ugly websites in the nineties I could build those by hand at volume. We all, we all do that. I look back and I'm proud of my flushing animations and other poorly, poorly conceived design judgments. Speaker 2:But I'm, [00:04:00] as I've come to sort of make it a full time job. The thing that has really struck me as most unfortunate is that every level of the market, there's predators. We maintain what we call a clueless vendors list of all of the people that actually misrepresent their services have hidden lock-ins or otherwise exploit the knowledge differential when they're trying to deal into this market. Wow. It's mind blowing that someone would be so cynical to be, you know, be a Predator on nonprofits. But I guess that there's a, [00:04:30] there's someone for every kind of angle out there. There is. So let me ask you about, um, you see so many different, um, business models and, and uh, nonprofits. What is the biggest gap that you see in the tech stack of all these people coming to you needing help? The great unsolved problem of the nonprofit universe, and this is global, is the a supporter database. Speaker 2:Uh, I point out that there's several hundred of these out there and all of them, pardon my French suck. They are just um, brittle. [00:05:00] Uh, some of them are extremely uh, shortsighted in what they let you do. Their extensibility is limited, but most of them simply don't do what nonprofits want to do. And there is this ongoing tension in nonprofit technology about do you bend to fit the tool or do you keep looking until you find a tool that fits the way you do what you do? So that's one great unsolved problem. I think now you're talking about like, um, a CRM type thing for, for donations. Something as simple as a constituent relationship [00:05:30] management system. It is astoundingly difficult for grassroots nonprofits to find inappropriate one a, the most powerful ones out there are sold by some of the most predatory vendors. I can't say enough non-positive things about Blackbaud, which is a company that deliberately locks nonprofits in, charges them hundreds of thousands of dollars a year and just exploits the fact that nonprofits need fundraising and CRM tools. Wow. And is that their primary focuses on nonprofits. Wow. So, um, when you Speaker 1:come in and you're looking at like someone asked for [00:06:00] your help, what's the process for, uh, kind of the assessment of what [inaudible] Speaker 2:they need? It's a good question. It's very dialogue based and we, our belief is, uh, technology is tragically almost all the time seen as a tech problem. And our belief is that it's always a people problem. And my background between Silicon Valley and what I do at aspiration, I worked for a great organization called the Ruckus Society and got a lot of exposure both there and living in a Greenpeace house. Two principles of community organizing. And so what we work with people to do [00:06:30] is to treat their technology challenges as community organizing opportunities. And by that I mean treats your users as your community members, arguably your marginalized community members. And so much as they don't tend to really get any voice in the technology they use. They tend to get told what tools they're gonna use and it tends to be the wrong tools for what they're trying to get done. Speaker 2:So we work with whoever is what we lovingly call the accidental tech lead or accidental tech decision maker to really get them into an engagement stance and a dialogue process where they actually talk [00:07:00] to the people that need the tools they're trying to identify and treat it as an organizational development growth opportunity rather than just a go to Walmart and get a new thing shopping spree. And that turns out to be a fairly effective model to teach them to fish. Is that tired? Uh, phrase goes, it's really fun to get people into a stance of believing they can actually do their own tech planning. Speaker 1:Interesting. Well, we're talking to Alan Gunn, he's the executive director of aspiration tech, a San Francisco based nonprofit that's focused on helping solve tell tech challenges for nonprofits [00:07:30] in the bay area and beyond. And um, that sounds like a pretty, um, people intensive engagement process. So tell me a little bit about the aspiration tech organization. Like who, who is it besides you? Speaker 2:It is seven of us. We're based in San Francisco at 16th and mission street. We run a happy little workspace called The San Francisco nonprofit tech center and have some great housemates. They're with us. Freedom of the press foundation, open whisper systems, upwell, Ruckus Society, peer to Peer University. [00:08:00] So it's a real fun nonprofit tech space. And uh, we work on a range of things. We've got folks that work on so-called human rights technology, helping people to think about digital security, others who work on capacity building across the state of California. Uh, it's easy to get volunteer tech support here in San Francisco. In fact, too easy, far too many people over deliver overly complex technology solutions. Uh, but our passion is the central valley in the rural parts of the state. So we do as much work as we can in Fresno, Sacramento and, and [00:08:30] down highway five. Basically. We've done a number of events at Coachella and places where you don't normally see a real density of tech folks. We're trying there to really help build local tech skills and really tried to build a statewide network of people that share tech, uh, in ways that we think are sustainable. Speaker 1:So, um, as you go through that, you know, you've written this amazing man has fit manifesto online that I think is really great. I want to ask you some questions about it. And one of the things that you just mentioned is taking concept of applying technology to scale organizations and make them more [00:09:00] powerful, um, to places that maybe this isn't something that they're used to. Um, so you have one in your manifest. So you talk about, um, the language for the end user, which, you know, in my experience is so critical. So tell me a little bit about that part of your ethos here of how do you, how do you engage in a way that's not scary to the executive director of WHO's focused on social justice issues and not the latest Tech Gizmo? Speaker 2:Great question. Um, our analysis, uh, we, we refer to it as, as what we call language [00:09:30] justice. And the idea is that if you look at power and class and privilege dynamics with regard to how technology plays out in this sector, technologists are uniquely privileged class and part of their privilege lies in the fact that they use this specialized language that marginalizes virtually everyone else. They'll drop some jargon, use an acronym, and they do it with a disdain that sort of conveys a don't bother asked me about this, you'd never understand it. Sort of a Hubris and so we work with organizations and activists and we say claim, claim your power, [00:10:00] claim your language power and describe what you think you need technologically in your language. Don't feel like you need to say http. Don't feel like you need to say database, but really try to focus on the strategic things you're trying to get done and the outcomes that you're trying to achieve. Speaker 2:One of the myths of technology, this is both in the nonprofit world and the broader world. A lot of people think that tech knows what you want and knows what you need and can do what you need. I'll go out the refrigerator and the microwave and the sad truth [00:10:30] about software and nonprofit technology in particular, it doesn't. And so we try to get people not to assume the tech will magically deliver a solution, but instead to get them to think strategically about the outcomes they're trying to achieve, the strategy that they'll use to get to those outcomes. And then last, the role of technology in those outcomes. We keep all of the dialogue and the vocabulary of the end user, but put it in formats where that same vocabulary makes sense to the techies. We've got sort of a universal format for describing what tech should do that is designed [00:11:00] both to be readily usable by those writing or delivering solutions, but also fully understandable by those little actually have to use them. Speaker 1:Well, it sounds like your engagement process is pretty well defined that you've, you really thought about it. You guys have been doing this for over a decade, it sounds like. So tell me a little bit about how that works. So if someone says I need help and they come to you and you're going to start talking to them in a language is not tech, but how far do you guys go? Do you guys actually implement the technology or do you just a consulting company or what are you guys, Speaker 2:we don't, we lovingly call ourselves pre procurement. Uh, but we'll stay with you all the way through. And [00:11:30] so what we try to do there, there is the other pathology I've seen over the years. People who do social change work are passionate, shockingly about social change. And so when, when you're talking to them about technology and explaining that it's going to take some time, they get fidgety in the big sense of fidgety. They're not happy with that. And when you say, Hey, if you want to do this right, it's an organizational commitment. It requires focus, they go nuts. And so we have a one step, a time model. We try to get them to focus on who will use the technology and then how they'll use it. And to the community organizing [00:12:00] paradigm. We actually get them to get some of their users actively involved in the process. We run live events where we actually get users to react to technology plans and beat them up in a loving way. And so the idea is to really walk folks through the actual visualization of what the tools will do before they pay the money before they get locked in. Speaker 1:So you guys are really generating the, the architecture and requirements of what the organization is gonna spend its money on to go implement. But then you guys step back, someone else is going to go actually [00:12:30] implement it, but you're there as a consultant throughout. Speaker 2:Exactly. At that point, if I can use a boxing metaphor, we then become the trainer in your corner. You're out there, Mano a Mano with somebody that you've got to contract with to make your website or your database or your other application. Uh, there's a certain game theory to dealing with technology vendors and so we basically coach around that. A good example would be, uh, when you're putting out a request for proposal, many earnest nonprofits will actually put the new number of their full budget. They'll say, we only have $30,000 [00:13:00] to do this. Our first coaching advice is don't say 30,000, save a little bit, come in a little bit lower. If you put out a proposal request for 30 K, they'll all come back at 29, nine 99. And so we tried to teach people to sort of keep some gas in the tank and then once projects get going, show them how to track progress and hold vendors accountable. Most vendors disappear into a void and say, oh, it'll be ready at some point. We try really hard to get early engagement around the deliverables so that [00:13:30] the nonprofits know they're getting what they want and they correct errors earlier in the process. Speaker 1:And Are you advocating for a certain type of, um, development methodology like agile, like in a rapid iterative process? Speaker 2:We describe a lot of what we do is grassroots agile. Um, we, we use that term only when it's appropriate to use it. But the concept in the agile software methodology of iterating and pivoting those words drive me crazy, but they're useful words. Uh, and so we try to get people to do minimum viable versions of things. I often described nonprofits, [00:14:00] they have a technology procurement ethic that parallels what people who live far, far out in the country do when it shopping time. They go into the city and they pack that vehicle is full of stuff as they can so they don't have to go back to the city anytime soon. And that doesn't work with tech procurement. If you do the, I want my website with every bell and whistle now you get what we call bloatware. You get technology that doesn't do what you want and it's hard to drive because it's big and it's complicated. So we try to focus on minimalism. Uh, when in doubt, leave [00:14:30] it out. And just a general sense of what we lovingly call subsistence technology because our belief is in the long haul, the less technology you're moving forward, if it meets your basic needs, that's a more strategic footprint than technology. That quote unquote does everything and costs you huge switching pain and legacy costs as you go to evolve with all these technologies are guaranteed to evolve. Speaker 1:When in doubt, leave it out. I love that one cause I use that because that is an awesome one. All right, so we're, we're speaking with Alan Gunn, the executive director of aspiration [00:15:00] tech here on KLX Berkeley 90.7 FM. This is a method to the madness and I'm your host, Ali and Huizar. Another part of your manifesto that I really loved is, um, and it's something that I think is so important, yet people just miss it, which is the fact that it's not about the software is not about the hardware. It's about the data that, tell me about your kind of, you know, the importance you put on the data and, and why is it so important for nonprofits? Speaker 2:Um, at the end of the day, all technology exists to manage information [00:15:30] in some sense, whether that is your digital music player or your radio or whatever. And one of the tragedies, and I think we point this out in that manifesto, software and hardware have cost associated with them. They are budget line items and most nonprofit budgets data rarely does your list of supporters, your list of, um, data samples from an environmental super fund site. No one really assigns a value to that. And so first order problem is that nonprofits think straight to dollars. And if it doesn't [00:16:00] have a number associated with it, they tend to undervalue it. The thing that has become much more of an issue since we wrote that manifesto is that with the proliferation of data acquisition capabilities, mobile data acquisition and crowd sourcing and cloud x, Y, z non nonprofits are now amassing data sets that actually put the people whose data is amassed at risk. Speaker 2:And you know, we see that in so many ways, there are sort of urban legends that are at least part true. Uh, you know, examples that people that [00:16:30] do, um, heat maps, in other words, they do a Google map of places where hate crimes have occurred. The problem with that is that then gives the haters a pretty good clue on where they can go do hateful things. And so there really is a need to do what is often referred to as responsible data practices. We work with a great organization called the engine room that's moving forward a responsible data program. And the idea is to teach nonprofits that with large data sets comes large responsibility and again, when in doubt leave it out. And so as you're collecting data, uh, [00:17:00] there are many times when you want to be circumspect about how that data could be used against you or others in the future. Speaker 2:One other example I use, uh, we worked with groups in the Central Valley that support undocumented folks, uh, in immigration advocacy work. Uh, we are quite sad when we discovered that they keep those folks contact info in Google spreadsheets and you're like, wow, that's just one Faeza or government subpoena away from getting some people deport it or worse. And so we try to make people aware that just because the tool is easy or just cause it's real nice [00:17:30] to see it all in those rows and columns. Uh, you'll want to think about what you're collecting and you'd just as importantly want to think about where you're storing it. Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean it's such a, it's such a huge problem and it's relatively new to humanity cause we never had this much access to information exactly. But this week apple made their big announcement with their new products and one of them is I think health kit where there are research kit where they're, they've created a framework for um, uh, hospitals do research. You can download an app and they can monitor stuff that you're doing, but there's this huge, [00:18:00] you know, HIPAA issues with that as, you know, be putting all this health information on apple servers and they can do whatever they want with it. It's really a fascinating time to be an understanding kind of the privacy laws around data. Yup. Um, now as you look at all of the different, um, you know, engagements that you're doing, um, what are some of the biggest, uh, kind of, you know, um, transformational or disruptive technology trends that you're seeing and nonprofits that are really starting to, you know, you know, we're [00:18:30] talking about some of the negative side with some of the positive things. The technology is so amazing in terms of its rapid advancement. What are you seeing that wasn't around 10 years ago that is really changed, transforming how effective nonprofits and social entrepreneurs can be? Speaker 2:That's a good question. Uh, I tend because we are technology minimalists, I tend to do less compellingly on questions like this. Uh, I'm old school in the sense that I think what really is a magical truth is that publishing a really effective website is now a well-defined process. I thank [00:19:00] the universe that a thing called wordpress came along and I thank the universe that when you outgrow wordpress, there's a thing called Drupal. And those two software packages really do help. The vast majority of grassroots and mid nonprofits publish extremely professional, powerful websites they have control of. I think you can overstate the ways in which mobile is changing the game. I think mobile, when you look at great organizations, you know Copwatch here in Berkeley that's now able to use mobile devices to hold police accountable. I think that's really exciting, but I think you know [00:19:30] whenever people ask me about exciting developments in tech, I I feel like the buzz kill do the glass half empty guy because mobile is a great example. Speaker 2:The power of what mobile can do. If you look@anorganizationlikewitness.org the human rights organization based in New York, they worked with another nonprofit called the Guardian project to put together some incredible human rights documentations, tools and I've been attack and other groups from Palo Alto has also contributed some incredible software. But the problem is that when you're using those phones, you are giving them in [00:20:00] a tremendous amount of data. Anytime you're connected by an actual mobile signal. And so just as you are documenting and collecting, you are almost always putting yourself at risk. Certainly being surveilled and so we try to teach people, as trite as it sounds, there ain't no magic technology bullets. And with every technology opportunity you must model the present and future costs. So to your question, mobile technology is exciting. I'm grateful as someone focusing increasingly on the so-called human rights technology space. Speaker 2:I think digital [00:20:30] security tools have turned a corner, and I think that there really is now a set of tools that really changed the game in terms of what human rights activists can do to be safe wherever they are. You'll never be fully safe. But when you look at where the tor browser has come to and the fact that you can browse online, when you look at what the Guardian software can do on mobile phones, certainly on Android, and when you look at what open whisper systems has done with their red phone and signal apps, which let you have genuine encrypted voice calls on your iPhone and android [00:21:00] devices. To me that's the most exciting thing because I think at the end of the day it's less about the sexy bell or the sexy whistle. It's more about the tools that really help you continue to be effective at scale. Speaker 2:And I'm a bit of a cynic. I think we're in an interesting honeymoon period in the sense that I think right now we see technology as this wonderful, compelling thing. We live in silicon valley and butterflies fly out of, you know, SD ram cards. But I think in the future we really need to model for a fairly dark world where those tools are actually used to surveil us. They're locked down. People have to connect [00:21:30] to the Internet with a global unique numeric identifier. And so I think it's really critical as we use these tools to focus on those that give us longterm agency and longterm autonomy, the people's tools and to that extent, open source and free software. I believe that depending on Google and apple and Microsoft is death unto itself as overstated as that might sound to some people, those corporations have one thing they got to do well and that's make money for shareholders and God bless them or goddess bless them, they do damn well at that particular pursuit here and now. Speaker 2:But [00:22:00] I think it's critical to understand that when the nonprofits get the freebies from Google or the freebies from Microsoft and one of these days, apple apparently is going to give some freebies to um, those are lock-in tricks. Those are surveillance hooks, those are addictions to unhealthy fatty technology. Foods then in the long run are going to kill the movement. And so we practice a, as an preach, if I may a certain rather strident voice around the fact that we need to be consuming open tools, free software technology controlled by the people, for the people, and making that our priority. [00:22:30] So instead of the shiny air or the newer or the more compelling, let us use the open and the free and the stable and maintain control of our longterm technology destiny. Speaker 1:Well, it's a really a powerful, um, image that you're portraying there. And, um, I almost see like a dystopian future novel coming from you at some point in time. Like you, you've got the vision. We've got to, if only more about it. Only Cory Doctorow hadn't already written it. All right. So, um, we're talking to Alan Gunn. He's an executive director of aspiration tech [00:23:00] here on KLX Berkeley 90.7 FM. And uh, we're talking about is a nonprofit that helps other nonprofits use tech for good. And, um, so let's talk a little bit about, um, some stories. So, um, you're in a consultative capacity. You probably see all sorts of transformations from the time you come in to the time you leave working with a organization. So can you tell us a little bit about a couple of, you know, you know, transformations that you really love that are really encapsulate [00:23:30] the kind of mission of aspiration tech? Speaker 2:I'd be glad to. Um, a story I tell a lot just because they're wonderful people that we adore and we're grateful we get to work with them. There's a wonderful organization in Fresno called Barrios Unidos and they work with young mothers to help balance, ah, workforce development and being able to stay employed with childcare, which is a tough double to pull when you're in your teen or early 20 years. And we first started working with them, goodness, about five years ago, our program director, misty Abila, uh, was [00:24:00] the lead on that. And the idea when we got there, they were really just trying to figure out technology basics and they bought into what we were selling in terms of the process that we advocate. The idea that you, you don't count on the tools, you count on your own ability to drive the tools and you count on the tools changing and trying to design processes that sustain your messaging, your engagement and your information management. And they now come to our events and train other nonprofits and everything they do and they've innovated in ways we could have never imagined. And so Yasmin and all [00:24:30] the folks at Barrios Unidos are an ongoing inspiration to us because they're doing the work that inspires us. They're actually making the world a better place and working with them to figure out appropriate tech is sort of really in a, in a nutshell, what aspiration exists to do Speaker 1:to what kind of innovations have they done. Speaker 2:They're using social media to reach people. They're using mobile phones and clever ways to, it's, you know, I think to a silicon valley ear, it's not that innovative, but I think when you're working with zero technology dollars, just the fact that they're sustaining some very compelling online communications [00:25:00] and really mobilizing people using technology to participate in, to be part of what they do, that to us is a big win. Speaker 1:Yeah. And that was a, the one of the, one of the questions I want to ask and follow up to kind of the biggest disruptors in the nonprofit space was social media, just because the democratization of the ability to access so many people I would think would be a great driver of fundraising capabilities for nonprofits. We've seen all sorts of crowdsourcing and stuff like that. Um, and so that's, you got to see that as a positive, right? I mean, in terms of new [00:25:30] developments or what's your take on that? Speaker 2:Um, it's a tough question. I think social media is an astoundingly powerful infrastructure and I, you know, we certainly advise people to play in those fields, but I think it really depends on a lot of variables. One thing that the fundraising professionals, uh, of which I do not, uh, myself identify as one. Uh, the fundraising professionals will tell you, social media is not actually a really good fundraising mechanism. We certainly talked people down from there. I'm going to make this video and it's going to go [00:26:00] viral. Delusions on a regular basis. Um, if there's anything everyone that we work with agrees on what goes viral cannot be predicted. Uh, you know, and even upworthy, bless their souls, work overtime to drive the stuff that they drive viral. So I, you know, I think on a lot of levels it's important to really think about social media, like all of their technologies in the context of what it is or is not appropriate for a cautionary tale. Speaker 2:I'm sorry, I keep coming back to the buzzkill side of your questions. Look at what happened with the Arab spring. A incredible use of Twitter and social media [00:26:30] to mobilize, to put people into Hater Square, to actually let the people's voice be heard. And then as soon as there was a government turnover, uh, they went back to those Twitter logs and they took those people and they put them in jail. Uh, and a close friend and ally of ours, ally still actually in jail, just got sentenced to a number of years in jail in no small part because of its online a writing. And so I think social media, it's a critical tool and it's a place, you know, one of things we say to people, meet people where your audiences are. A lot of people on Facebook, a lot of people on Twitter, but we encourage people [00:27:00] to really strike a healthy balance because Facebook is a great example of an incredibly powerful tool that will double back to bite you. Speaker 2:There's a cautionary tale from a couple of years ago, uh, Facebook, uh, was, uh, I'm trying to think what year this was. I believe it was pre IPO target. The CEO of target was funding hate legislation in Minnesota, anti gay marriage stuff in Minnesota. And some earnest Facebook users set up a boycott target page, which Facebook instantly froze. It got 75,000 likes in one day. Facebook froze it because, [00:27:30] oops, target is a major advertiser on Facebook and you know, their whole patronizing language was that they wanted to maintain the civility of Facebook. You're like, dude, I can show you a lot of Facebook real estate where that is not being enforced, but a point being a, you know, there's that, that old phrase about, you know, whether or not it's going to work to, you know, use the master's tool to dismantle the master's house. I think we're really playing an unleveraged game to depend on Facebook and corporate social media to bring about change because at the point that we start to bring revolution to bear, they'll close our account. [00:28:00] And I think we need to be humble to the fact that the end of the day, social media is a revolution. It is an evolution. It is a powerful infrastructure, but we must distrust it as much as we leverage it because it's going to be taken away at the point that we use it effectively against power and against the corporations that control it. Especially the advertising corporations that generate the CR prices, the generate the dividends that make the 1% do what they do so wonderfully well. Speaker 1:Yeah. And all these companies, Twitter, Facebook, they're all, you know, publicly traded companies now at the holding of their own shareholders [00:28:30] and they're in the rat race of quarterly reports and all that stuff. So well said. So I wanted that close by. Um, you know, you've, you've stated a powerful case for, uh, you know, a, a manifesto that you have online of how to apply, you know, learnings to nonprofit world, which was probably quite a few people listening who that resonates with. So how can they get involved if someone wants to help aspiration tech's mission, how would you suggest they help? Speaker 2:That's a great question. Uh, we do a lot of trainings [00:29:00] at our tech center. We welcome to come by their free trainings. We love to mentor mentors. You know, we, we don't presume to be the smartest men or in the room, but our belief is that, uh, as we teach others that they can go teach others how to do this stuff and what we consider to be sustainable ways. We as a set of movements and a movement supported by a set of techies with certain value orientations around social justice as opposed to whizzbang shiny. Um, we welcome folks that want to sort of grow in that mentoring role, that teacher role [00:29:30] and that tech support role. Because doing that well is really hard. And I say that as somebody who's been doing it for about 20 years. Um, we're available whether you're in California, on the other side of the world, uh, at aspiration tech. Speaker 2:Dot. There's lots of ways to contact us. We can't always help, but we'll always try to find you someone who can, uh, for those that are more techie oriented. Our annual conference in Oakland, it's in November every year. The last full week before Thanksgiving, a the nonprofit software developers summit is a time where so-called open techies, people that are committed to making open [00:30:00] and free software and other technology come together to meet with one another. But at the end of the day, the answer to your question is, if you think we can help, call us up and we'll do our best to see if we, uh, can prove you're right. Speaker 1:Right on. Well, I appreciate you coming in today, gunner and we, you've been listening to Alan Gunn, the executive director of aspiration tech, a San Francisco based nonprofit, really focused on helping other nonprofits utilize technology for good. You can check them out@aspirationtech.org and you, and this has been method to the madness on KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM. Thanks for listening. [00:30:30] Have a great Friday. Everybody. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Interview with Krazy George, possibly the first professional cheerleader who began appearing at Oakland Atheletic's games in the 1980s.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:[inaudible] [inaudible] Speaker 2:you're listening to KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM, university of California and listener supported radio. And this is method to the madness coming at you from the Public Affairs Department here at Calex dedicated to celebrating the innovative spirit of the bay area. I'm your host, Allen Huizar. And today we are honored. Speaker 3:I have [00:00:30] crazy George with us. Hey, crazy. George was out. You said my name. I like that last stop. Let's talk. Let's talk. So we have crazy Georgians studio. Crazy. George is famous for a lot of things, but the number one thing I think you're famous for is being the world's first and longest tenured and only full time cheerleader is, I like your title. You gave it. It's perfect. Yes, right. Summed it up perfectly. I am the only person probably in the world that makes [00:01:00] his job, makes his living cheering for teams, getting people to cheer for the team. That's what I do. And they'd pay me enough to make living. Nice. So let's talk about how you get started as a professional cheerleader. You were a sent, you went to San Jose State, is that right? That's right. Mighty San Jose state test. So what, what started to draw you to cheering? Speaker 3:Like was it something that you had always done or was it in college? How did you get started now? I was pretty quiet person but my best friend don bogged and brought a drum and a bugle to a [00:01:30] football game and I couldn't play the bugle cause that takes talent. So I started playing the drum and started pounding on it and all the students at San Jose state started following me and him. And by the end of the football season, I was just sitting in the stands. Everybody was following me. So the cheerleaders asked me to go out. So I went out and they elected me cheerleader the next year and I was a pathetic cheerleader cause I couldn't remember the routines and the words at the same time, I was really bad. So I went off on my [00:02:00] own. I started doing my own little thing with my drum, not everybody following me. Speaker 3:And over the years I just started branching out to pro teams. They loved it. They started hiring me and in 1975 after teaching for four years, I quit teaching. I had to quit those four kids. I was warping their minds. Yeah, you'd probably, screaming on a field is a little bit more of a appropriate place for you and that's right. Well, I want to ask about a lot of things, but you said that the cheerleaders, you couldn't remember [00:02:30] their kind of traditional attorney, you're like a disruptor. You're not like a normal chiller. You call yourself a cheerleader, but you weren't doing the cheerleading routines. How did they take that when you went off on your own? Well, that was the good part. I'm, since I couldn't really fit in with a squad, it was better I worked by myself or off to the side where I could get all the students and the alumni involved in the game. Speaker 3:And so that's how he sort of honed my style. And then from then, then on I was invited to go do an Oakland seals game for [00:03:00] the NHL years ago and I did one game for, for the fun of it. I was invited by a hockey team, a baseball team, went up with them and I got the whole crowd screaming. Nobody knew me. And at the end of the game, um, everybody was, was talking about me. And the next day in the paper, it was a big article on me. Nice. And one of the players said, if he comes back, I'd give him a ticket. So I called him up, he gave me a ticket. I went to another game producer and I was a regular at the Oakland Seals, [00:03:30] hockey games, Oakland seals. Where did they play? They played there in the coliseum where the warriors play a, it was great. Speaker 3:So you, um, so you were at San Jose state where you kind of found this passion. It sounds like you went, you diverted for a teaching for a little while. What were you teaching? I dumb murdered. Where were you teaching? I was teaching very little. Those poor sleep problems. The subject matter I taught wood shop, metal shop and electronics. Oh, okay. I see what shops make sense. So, um, you, uh, [00:04:00] you came back at San Jose state, you did a little Oakland schools, but wasn't it like the big place you got discovered was that the earthquakes? Is that, yes, that was, that was the first pro team I ever worked for except the open seals, which weren't paying me. They weren't paying you. So you got, when you got to check out the earthquakes. Yes. I went in there and they actually called me up and they said, would you like to open up the season for us and be with us for some of the Games? Speaker 3:And I said, well, sure, I'd love it. And in essence he said, well, how much do you want to get paid? And I said, well, how about 35 bucks a game? [00:04:30] And yes, they gave me 35 bucks a negation asked for more. Well, I did. After about three days, I'm realizing maybe I should ask for more. This crowd reaction was the greatest crowd reaction you could ever see in your life. It just revolutionized soccer up until that point. That was nobody growing over 7,000 people. A game for professional soccer. That game first game 16,000 and they were mayhem there. The fans became fanatics and like [00:05:00] one, well it's not quarters in there, but before the first half everybody was going nuts and I was on full time with that team. Who was, what year was that? 1974 first year. The quakes that I started, I'm still with the earthquakes and I'm opening up their new stadium on the 22nd of March. Wow. Did you say 1974 74 that is for those guys to the math. That's 40 plus years I scares. Yes. Yeah. That's amazing. So your first professional gig of 35 bucks a game. [00:05:30] It was for the earthquakes and then I think I read somewhere that Lamar Hunt. Yeah. [inaudible] Speaker 3:Kansas City chiefs know this is the NFL. The big boys, big boys. He saw you whip this crowd into a frenzy. I see that he saw me doing this earthquake game. The first game. He couldn't believe the reaction that it was his league there. Earthquakes were part of his league. This was not the mls. This is an old league. Right. What the name of that [inaudible] I think what a memory guy. [00:06:00] Yeah, it's amazing. So he saw me there and somehow over the next year he said, I would really like to see George at a football game at Kansas City. And the manager were arranged it and I went in and this was a greatest. And now I'm actually with a really glamorous team. The Kansas City chiefs. Yeah, I'd go in unannounced. Unknown. Nobody knew me. Arrowhead was, it was arrow. It was, wow. It was 60,000 people, 60 70,000 people. Speaker 3:[00:06:30] I went in before the first quarter. I started working the crowd. By the first quarter I had shares going anywhere. By the first half I had back and forth. Kansas City. Oh No. Casey Gay. See back and forth across the stadium. They couldn't believe it. The whole game. They stayed off. Seven 60,000 people stayed and they lost 45 to nothing and wow. And they still stayed in Lamar? I couldn't believe it. He said, when we have a game like this, nobody's here [00:07:00] at the end of the game. And they stayed. I want you full time. Wow. So you got hired full time, full time for the whole season for them. Wow. So you had a $35 per game and in the soccer, what would you be? Well now it went up to 500 a day. Wow. That was good. And that's pretty sweet. Yes. So you're starting to see, you're like, wow, I can, is this the first time when you're like, I could do this for a living? Speaker 3:Well, it started off a little earlier than that. When the [inaudible], the St Louis Blues called me back in like 1972 [00:07:30] and offered me a full time contract. This guy was like a renaissance guy. He owned the blues. He saw me at the, at the Oakland Seals Games. He thought it was so great. He wanted to hire me, he wanted me to quit teaching, come there, and he was going to pay me 12,000 bucks to do the 40 home games. I was making 9,000 a year full time. [inaudible] Lau. I couldn't believe it. So he made the offer, but it had to be in, can it only would it go [00:08:00] out and the offer would be effective if the Oakland seals folded? They were folding my, they were kept there for two more years. And both years you made the offer? Third Year came around, I was ready to go. I was ready to quit teaching and he got ill. Speaker 3:And you stopped working with the, uh, St Louis Blues. So I lost out of that, but it gave me the idea that somebody might pay me that much. So how'd you get to the first kind of, did you ever get a gig where it was like a whole season? Like after the Kansas [00:08:30] City? That was, was that for the chiefs? Did you do the whole, and the Kansas Cassidy, she's already the same time. The Colorado Rockies ice hockey hired me. The BC lions, Canadian football hired me. And that was all in 1975 76. So I was making enough money. I could quit teaching. Nice. So we're talking to crazy George who is the world's only full time professional cheerleader here on [inaudible] at professional male model. I like to think of myself like that. I'm sorry, I forgot that part. Okay. This is a method to the medicine. Speaker 3:KLX Berkeley 90.7 [00:09:00] FM. I'm your host deleon Huizar and so George, you got this crazy idea that you could do this for a living. Now I have a question. First of all, you've talked a lot about different sports. Is there a different tactics that you use in different sports? Actually not really. I act like a fe and wants to react. That's why I'm successful when I go into a game. Well maybe it wasn't that 45 and nothing Kansas City chiefs game that I've did [00:09:30] first, but I do the as many fan cheers as the fans want and I react like a fan wants to. I just stand up. The secret is I stand up, I turn around, I look at the feds, they look down and say, Hey, must be our leader. Cause I'm looking at them and said in the field, well you also have a loud drum that helps. Speaker 3:Well, I don't want to admit it, but 90% of my success is my drum. Don't give away all the secrets right here is the secret. Actually, without the drum getting people's [00:10:00] attention, I would have never been affected. That's my, my secret. I hit that drum. Everybody looks down at me. I wait for the action to die down so I can make them do what I want to do. They understand what I want to do. I get totally attention. I wait for the moment when the cheer should be done. I do that. Your everybody reacts. How do you get, I get like 99% reaction from the fans. So, um, you, you say that the, it's really, it sounds like it's like, um, you're locked into kind of like a vibe with [00:10:30] the fans. It's like it doesn't matter what the sport is, you're kind of playing back for them. Speaker 3:What they want to do. Right. And every sport is pretty similar except for the basketball. It's a tough sport for me to work because the action never stops. It's just up and down up there and they score like every 20 seconds. So with every 20 seconds, if I had to do a cheer, I would die at the end of the game. So basketball's a little tough for me to work. But all the other sports, they are just great. There's a lot of stoppage of the action, [00:11:00] you know, the, in the huddles, whatever they're doing, baseball, they're warming up. It's just great. So I can get in the cheers I need to get in. So what about um, the cheers themselves or is it more, are you like a like, um, you know, a improvisational master of just coming to you or do you come and prepare? Speaker 3:Like you have some cheers you're going to do no matter what? No matter what, I never practice. I never think about it. That was great. From the time I started that first game at San Jose State [00:11:30] with my drum and that my partner handed me. It was just a natural sense, I think. I don't know why I had it. I'm a fan, I guess, of sports, but you know, I just knew when to cheer, when not to cheer, what type of chairs, and I just made 'em up, never think about him. I'm watching the game. I'm thinking about the game. I'm looking at the action. I go, what type of shirt do we need here? And it just comes to me. I do the, it's always the right chair. It's always appropriate, never off colored. I've never done it off cover cheering my life. And, and [00:12:00] another secret why I'm successful is most of these other people that have come along and that in the later years, they get to these outlandish outfits. Speaker 3:They look like they're from Mars sometimes. Well, people don't want to cheer from a guy from Mars. They want to cheer. For me, a human know who that guy, he looks human and not, well maybe not quite human, but close. So they go, oh Geez, George is one of us. And He, they see me sweating. They, they see I'm working harder than the players, man. I get comments from the [00:12:30] fans the third quarter they'll go, George, you're working harder than the players. You're sweating. I sweat so much during the game. So I do see like the Jean shorts seem to be the signature look for you. Is that, is that like a, it had a signature is my signature and I had my Levi shorts on for the last 50 years. I think cheering, always wear the same old raggedy cutoff shorts. Yup. Nice. Okay. Speaker 3:So, um, let's talk about, you know, this [00:13:00] show's about innovation and of course being the first full time mail filtering cheerleader in the world is innovation enough, but you also created maybe the signature crowd move. Now I know it's a linear contention. We don't have to go there, but I'm going to accredit it to you. You, yes, I have it accredited by s, what is it called? New York Times credited me when they credited the paper of record is accredited. Crazy George the way ESPN. ESPN. So the wave [00:13:30] you invented, the way that I invented, the way I gotta die, the way my boat I invented at the Oakland A's, New York Yankee playoff game, October 15th, 1981. When Billy Martin was the manager, I literally bought the building longer. So you were there as a playoff game. People were excited. A's Yankees. Now, how'd you, how'd you come up with this idea of coordinating these like 50,000 people in the stadium? Speaker 3:There was 47,000 fans [00:14:00] and unfortunately for the other places that I actually was doing a pre wave, I was doing waves at other places. Fine. Fortunately there were smaller practice with national TV. There wasn't a lot of witnesses, so I don't, I really could take credit even earlier than that. But the Oakland A's game, I have it on video three separate times. Billy Martin was here, but Joe Garagiola was the Nancy announcer who's famous announcer and he, uh, he had testifies that was the first and best [00:14:30] wave he's at, he's ever, ever saw. So that's why I say that's the day I invented. But it took a process of about four years starting with a three section shear of San Jose state. Okay. Each section of the student body would stand up and just sell San Jose state. And from that idea, as as the years went by as a professional cheerleader, I had a lot of opportunity to do these three section chairs at different places, changing the name. Speaker 3:And finally I got to the Colorado Rockies [00:15:00] and I had to go Rockies, go chair three sections and it was looking good and a section over there wanting to get involved a little. So I tried to do go Rockies, go Rockies four sections and the first section wanted to do it and it kept going a little bit. And from there I said, well it's too complicated going, go Rockies go. So I just say stand up and yell, go. Yeah. So back then I was thinking of it more like the goat share, but they just go, go in. And when I started that and went all the way around the [00:15:30] Colorado Rockies arena, and so that really was about as close as to a wavy she'd get. Unfortunately. And it was, they loved it. But the Colorado Rockies only drew about 5,000 people in a 15,000 seat arena. Speaker 3:So it was very few opportunities to do it in. It was never televised. I never had it on video. So that's the idea of where it started. But the color from there I came, I brought it back and started to Oakland. That's the day I invented. [00:16:00] So at the A's game, um, how hard was it to communicate to the fans? Cause you now everybody knows how to do away. That's right. How did, how did you like telepathically tell 47,000 people to stand up at the right times? A lot of coordination involved in a wave. Yes. See, I know the power of booing. Okay. So I went to three sections and got them organized and by then I'd already been doing the wave at high school rallies. What was continuous, they didn't have, they didn't have aisles, so I had to just [00:16:30] do it continuously. So I knew what I wanted. Speaker 3:So I went to these three second, I said, well you guys stand up. And as they, as it comes around the next day, I want you to stand up. Then I went to the next section. I was screaming and yelling and then I went back to them and said, they understand what you're going to do. You stand up. Then you guys stand up. Then you guys, while I'm yelling so loud at him and I'm preparing this and this all started like in the fourth inning, but I hadn't started yet, but I told him what I wanted, but then I said, when we start this people down there, [00:17:00] we'll not know what they're supposed to do or even see it coming so when it dies and it will die, boom. And so they are already, and I waited for a break of the action and you had to wait for a foul ball or something to give a couple of, you know, 30 40 seconds of break. Speaker 3:So it came and I don't know what the break of action was, but I got the three sessions going, I they started, it would've been since I was yelling so loud at these three to get them organized. I'd say the next four or five could hear me and they sort of got [00:17:30] the idea what they wanted to do. So I started, went about seven, eight sections and died right out. And I had my three or four sections blue and it was a great bu I started a second time. This time it went all the way around. I started way out in the left field and I started it. It came around and went all the way to behind home plate and died again. Now everybody booed and this was a great book. Now everybody in the state have figured out, [00:18:00] oh, we see what he wants. Speaker 3:Started the third time. And it just started rolling and all three decks did it. It was marvelous. They kept coming around with all the way to the outfield all the way back, gets back to upstanding. Everybody in the three sections stands up in unison and applauds. And I'm going, no, you don't get some times to this. It's supposed to gave going. So I started the fourth time, all three deck scape and when it came by, my section [00:18:30] was like a locomotive. I mean it just ripped on by kept long going, went around about seven, eight times. Cloud Whitten nuts. Joe Garagiola was up there and the booth going crazy. Get that on video, that thing. And they didn't know how to film with all the cameraman. The first couple of shots you see the wave all you see as a couple of people, the far right of the screen sort of sitting down. Speaker 3:Everybody else is just sitting cause they're behind it. But they finally got a good shot of it. Nice. [00:19:00] So we're the, we're talking to crazy George here on Kale expert cleans method to the madness. I'm murals telling Huizar and he's telling us about how he invented the wave as the first glorious appearance of the wave on this planet. And now it's pretty much all. Everybody does it everywhere. Oh, everywhere. Everything. Everywhere is the world and the world calls it the Mexican wave. What? Yes, the whole world. It's not the crazy wave. And I have a Seattle trying to claim it, but they did it two weeks. They don't. I finally have them shutting up most of the time, but it's hard to take on [00:19:30] the world. But it went down to the World Cup in an 86 a Mexico had it and they'd already seen the wave up here. Speaker 3:They took it down and they were doing it. All the venues in Mexico for the World Cup game, the whole world saw it. Now the whole world calls it the Mexican wave. So in the A's game, what did the players do as a playoff game? Was like a really high pressure game and all of a sudden the crowd goes nuts. Been for nothing on the field today. Did, was there any comments afterwards? Oh, I mean, the fans loved it. I mean, I, I think I've had 50,000 [00:20:00] fans come at me. Say they were there when it was only 47,000 week. Oh, I was there George. And we saw it. It was the greatest thing. Cool. Well, um, that's like your probably your signature cheer. Like [inaudible]. Everybody knows it, but it's not my signature cheer for when I know I've had the fans in my hand and I know I've succeeded. Speaker 3:That's my back and forth cheer across the stadium with I do KC if it's Kansas City and [00:20:30] I the first, the first Houston oil game I ever did, but Adams hired me because he saw how great I was in Kansas City and he said, George, he says, how long is it going to take you to get Houston Oilers back and forth the game? How many games? And I said, I'll do it the first game. No. And then he says, he says, well, I'm going to get a microphone for you so you can tell everybody. I said, I don't use a microphone. How's it asked you? Have you used a bullhorn or anything? No, not until the last couple of years. [00:21:00] I use a Mike some of the time up till like five years. I never used a microphone. Just your disappear, my voice. But then I says, he said, oh, the advertise you. Speaker 3:I want to advertise. Everybody knows you're here. And I said, no, I don't need advertising. I'll come in unknown. I don't want any microphone. Why? What, how? What do you think about it that way? What? Well, you don't want any help. What does it more way? No, it's, it's, maybe I'm a coward because I don't want the burden of everybody expecting something from me and [00:21:30] I just go in and they really, they don't know who I am. They're just sitting there and all at once, or is this crazy guy in this thing? There's a crazy psi in the next session and an hour later I've hit 40 sections and everybody's going, who is this guy? And they're not thinking about following me yet. Maybe for the first 2040 minutes I'm getting each little section cheering, but every, every section I do, I get a chair. The next section I get allowed to cheer. Speaker 3:Next session allowed a chair next to the point where I can now tie in four or five [00:22:00] sections to a really loud share for the third of the place. And I keep getting work in every section everywhere. So I'm up close and personal. I'm threatening their lives and then it gets to the point, I tell one side, I'm going to the other side and I'm going to yell, Kay, what do you think you're supposed to say? And I, and about 20 minutes later on the other side of the Sam setting up, we're yellingK , but of course not that many people on the c sides ready to go. But once I do, theK is [00:22:30] so loud and then like pointed the other side, I'm waiting, it doesn't come back very loud. The boom comes here and they all boom. When the next one I do k when I point to that, see it's twice as loud as the k and they go nuts over. Speaker 3:But once it starts, it just adds energy to each side. They want to outdo each other's competition in the stands and then I know the team is going to bring me back. All right. So that's, that's the victory you've got. Um, [00:23:00] the wave is the signature thing, but it's really the call and response when you feel like you really oh yeah. Once I rated that back and forth share across the state, they've never, nobody's ever, ever even saw something like that ever. I mean, and now they're seeing this huge, massive response from all the fans and the owner of the team usually comes up after the game says, Oh, want to hire you? Well, let me ask you about, that's like the height. What about like as a professional cheerleader, you've probably had some lows. Like what was, can you give us a story of [00:23:30] you tried something you thought it was like the greatest idea ever? Speaker 3:I know. Just like you couldn't get them to do it and nope. Nope. Never happened. Really. I, I've had one out of hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of games I've done, uh, over a teams, well over a hundred teams, but some of the teams I've done 50, 60 times. So I don't know what that multiplies out to, but I have been lots of games. I just never added them up. But I did add up. I've appeared in front of 25 million [00:24:00] fans in front of them. Wow. Out on TV. So it's been a bit more TV. I mean, you've been to playoff games and lots of people have seen you. Right? Wait, I lost track. What was I answering? A quick question. Was I answering well, you said I stumped you. I asked you, have you ever flopped to say, oh well I did have one bad experience and w I still want to kill the group. Speaker 3:It was a, I don't know what the team was. It was a football team and they're bringing me in. I'm going in the same way. I always go in on announce unknown, no microphone. [00:24:30] And some PR guy comes up to me before the game says, you know what, we get George, we've got a big ad campaign going and we're gonna have 12 lookalikes like you carry in drums and then we're going to give them a ward. Who's the, who's the best crazy George. So they got 12 guys looking like me running around and nobody's ever, ever saw me work to start with. I've never been there and I could have killed this guy. Bad idea. It was a terrible idea. And I at the end of the game, [00:25:00] the only solace I have is a, say they awarded some guy, you know, the prize for being the best crazy George look like. Speaker 3:And I had like 10 people standing by me when they awarded. They said, Whoa, crazy George, you're better than them. Why didn't you, you should have got the award. They were pathetic. They were great and I wasn't great. That was so much distraction. That was me. A failure. You're, you know, you're an artist. You can't, they shouldn't be trying to mess with your process. But that was one game out of thousands I've done. Okay, well let me ask a [00:25:30] different question. What's the most dangerous cheer you done? I was looking at some videos of you like balancing and like have you, seems like you're pushing the envelope a little bit. Is there any anyone that's a dangerous thing that got dangerous was my entrances. I made a lot of entrances when I got with the San Jose earthquakes. Um, I started doing, uh, working with Dick Berg, the general manager. Speaker 3:He says, well, want you to bring the ball in the first game? Our opening game in 74 so he had me come, coming in, the ambulance hitting in the back and the whole, the whole crowd [00:26:00] went dead silent years. This ambulance coming in, pulls up in front of the player's bench. They think some player, it died. It's the first day and they didn't know what was going on. They pull a Gurney out, I'm under the blanket. I pull it off and they go nuts. And that's how the game started. Then I had to topic, yeah, every game on a helicopter. One day it's a copter was fun and I'd belt the buckle, but I'd stand on the outside rail. But it was like us standing out you that I came in and Ferrari's. I came in, I came in with a lie and now this is why it gets [00:26:30] absurd. Speaker 3:I came in with a full grown for 150 pound lion and the trainer we get to, we'd get the center field that trainer trips a lion attacks him. No, this, she has life long friends. There are earthquakes. No, no. This was in Dallas, that Dallas Tornado, and now underneath the line he is bleeding. He's getting mauled. I'm 10 feet from an old in my drum and I, when I was with the lion trainer, he told me, never, ever hit your drum around [00:27:00] the lion. I said, good advice. Well, now he's underneath me, underneath the lion and out from underneath that line, I hear the stupidest comment I ever heard. He yells, damn off me. He can't be talking to me. I thought, and I look around the only other guy on the field, and then he had the gall to say it again, get him off me. Speaker 3:Well, what could I do? I took my drum and I went and the lion stopped eating him to try to eat you. This spun right [00:27:30] around and looked at me. I did not like this, but I had to do psych. I don't know if I had to do it, but I hit it when it took like four or five seconds. And by the end the other lion trainer that was off the saw what was happening and by the time that all happened he had already come to the seat and grabbed the other line and helped the guy off and he had to go to the hospital cause he was bleeding well. So you're also, we'll add that to the resume line line trainer nine Tamer. I was a very good line train for four seconds. All right, so [00:28:00] we're talking to crazy George here on KLX Berkeley. Speaker 3:You've got a couple more minutes. So we talked about the earthquakes. So it's coming full circle. You're starting the New Year of Christening the new stadium, right? What's going on with a lot of things going? Yes. I'm Chris sitting in the new stadium on March 22nd that's their first game at home. We're going to christen that. I'm going to be the Grand Marshall of the Rose White and blue parade in San Jose with 35,000 people on the 4th of July. Nice. Yeah, they asked me to be the Grand Marshall. [00:28:30] I'm an, I'm practicing my queen wave and I've been doing corporate meetings. I've been, and my gut, my book, God, you got to talk about my book. So how did this book come about? Oh, my book, my book is called Crazy George. Still crazy after all these cheers and all the fans, just Kevin asking me to write it. And then I did have a controversy with the Seattle about the wave and I wanted to document that in the book. Speaker 3:So I documented that. And then also from writing the book, I found [00:29:00] out I was a huge factor in the 12th man factor for the Santos, for the NFL Seahawks ball for the Seahawks. So I had that strand. But yeah, I, I've loved the book. I took it. I, in fact, I don't know if I'm prejudice, but I think it's maybe the greatest sports book ever written. It could be. It's likely excellent cover. I have it in my hands here. And thankfully, you know, you've cheered for a lot of teens, but you kept it real with the A's or that's who you're representing on the cover. So thank you. [inaudible] [00:29:30] because I invented their wave there and a lot of the articles are about the wave where a lot of book is about the waivers. And so I thought that was very appropriate. I had the greatest time with the A's, the Haas family. Speaker 3:Kepi just treated me great. It was fabulous. So it's called crazy George, the inventor of the wave still crazy after all these cheers. Can you find it on Amazon or something like that? That's on Amazon and it's on a kindle and it's on my website. Crazy. george.com and if you don't look at my website, I'll slash your tires. Yeah. [00:30:00] So there you have a threat from one and only crazy George. It starts with a k. That's how you spell a z. Y. That's right. She's never been a teacher. Yeah. Well you're a shop teacher, so, right. So crazy. george.com yes, that's my website. And then it just like it in the book. I have a lot of pictures on it. Yeah. And lots of pictures. There's videos, there's some really great stuff up there. And so I really wanna thank you for coming in today. Speaker 3:Crazy. George was great to meet you and hear the stories about your 40 plus years of being [00:30:30] the world's only full time professional cheerleader. I like that they got myself professional male model and professional [inaudible] and nominee from people's sexiest man alive, self nominated. And um, that's all the time we have for today. Um, and it's going to be the 35th anniversary. Actually, just a mention of the wave being created this next summer. You can go to the ace and love to go to the ace 35th anniversary. So Mr. Wolf, if you're here, [00:31:00] if you're listening to this, let's get on that. Get Crazy George out to the Colosseum and you are listening to methods of madness on KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM. Thanks again for coming in and crazy Jordan. Everybody have a great Friday. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Save the Frogs is a nonprofit organization dedicated to raising awareness of the world wide to amphibians die off.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:You're listening to k a l x Berkeley 90.7 FM. And this is method to the madness, a show coming at you from the Public Affairs Department here at Calex dedicated to exploring the innovative spirit of the bay area. I'm your host Ali Huizar and today we have Dr. Carey Krieger Krieger with us. Thanks for letting me know the pronunciation and thanks for joining us. Yeah, it's great to be on. Thanks for having me. And I'm, Carrie is the founder of save the frogs. So we want to talk about your organization. But first, um, [00:00:30] I always like to start the program off with talking about kind of the problem statement. So someone will start an organization because they see an issue. What's the issue that you saw? Speaker 2:Yeah, the problem is that frogs and other amphibians are rapidly disappearing around the world. So there's about 7,000 known species of Amphibians, of which at least 2000 of them are threatened with extinction. And a couple of hundred species have gone completely extinct in recent decades. And this is an extinction, uh, [00:01:00] rate several thousand times faster than normal. And when I started save the frog, very few people knew that there was even an issue. So to me this was one of the world's most significant environmental issues, most rapidly disappearing group of vertebrates. And if people don't know that there's a problem, then it's extremely difficult to fix the problem. And Amphibians are extremely important for a variety of reasons. They're eating ticks and mosquitoes and flies that spread bad diseases. We don't want a frogs are very important [00:01:30] in the food chain if they disappear than other animals have problems. A lot of our pharmaceuticals and medical advances come from research on Amphibians. I amphibians are bio indicators. They're sensitive to environmental change. So they're an early warning system of environmental degradation. And also frogs are really cool people like frogs. It's our ethical and moral duty to protect them. So I started save the frogs because there was no nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting amphibians and there was a lot that [00:02:00] needed to get done that was not getting done. Okay. Thanks for, uh, I think that explains the problem pretty well. So, um, Speaker 1:before we get into that kind of the starting of the organization and what it does. Um, can you tell us a little bit about your back? Speaker 2:Where, where do you get your education and how did you come to notice this problem? I grew up in Virginia. I grew up on about 20 acres of land when I was seven. My parents built a pond on the property, which has attracted at least seven different species of amphibians. [00:02:30] And I spent a lot of my childhood and a lot of my um, adult time when I visit my parents, going down to the pond and hanging out there and being exposed to frogs and wildlife and just being outdoors. And then in my teens I started hiking and camping a lot. And eventually when I finished college, actually studied mechanical engineering in college, but was never too into that. And I'd never thought of environmental science as a potential career or environmental conservation. And by the [00:03:00] end of college I realized that was a possibility. Started traveling around the world a lot and camping, going to national parks. I really liked being out in the wilderness, but I noticed that there was a lot of environmental destruction all around and I wanted to do something about that. So eventually he went to Australia and spent four years there doing my phd in environmental science, studying the ecology of Kitsch Radio Mycosis, which is an amphibian disease that's causing trouble for amphibians here in California and all around the [00:03:30] world. So I learned all about amphibians when I was in Australia. And also I learned what was not getting done that needed to be getting done to save them. Speaker 1:Okay. So you're doing your phd in Australia and you're studying an amphibian disease. And then I like to talk about this kind of moment of inspiration, that Sundar bolt that hits and a a, uh, entrepreneur or social entrepreneur like you who decides, Oh wow. You know, I have now seen this issue. I'm going to take the leap. Am I do something about it? Can you describe [00:04:00] for us, when was that, did you have that kind of moment of inspiration? Speaker 2:Yeah, there are probably a couple. Uh, I'll first make it clear. When I was in Australia, I was definitely in the world of academia and it's a lot different than being in nonprofits and not many people who are doing their phd go down the path that I have gone. So before I did my phd between um, college and do my phd, I took many years off and one of the main ways that I supported myself was tutoring, private tutoring, uh, math and chemistry and [00:04:30] a couple of other subjects. So I was essentially working for myself and I really liked working for myself. And during my phd it was very independent research as well. So it was kind of like I was working for myself and I wanted to continue doing that. Also when I was at the University of sell out of bureaucracy. And I also figured that working for government would have at least as much bureaucracy. Speaker 2:So I wanted to work for myself. And at the end of my first year of doing my phd, even though I'd had very little prior amphibian experience, [00:05:00] I got two large research grants, one from the Epley Foundation for research. And one from the National Geographic Society's Committee for research and exploration. And being that I had, uh, very little experience up to that point and did not even yet have my phd, I figured it must be incredibly easy to raise money to do this kind of work. So even though that was a false belief, I went with that. And eventually when I finished my phd, I was, I was, my original plan [00:05:30] was to continue doing research and to do a postdoc for a couple of years, but I could not think of any postdoc that would be as important as starting a nonprofit. So, uh, I had had the idea for save the frogs in my head for probably four years, but never put too much thought into it. Speaker 2:And then, uh, about nine months after finishing my phd, the thought just hit me that now's the time I need get a webpage going and you know, at least [00:06:00] get this thing started a little bit. I was not, I did not yet have any full time position from after my phd. So I had time to start doing what I thought needed to get done. Step one was build a website so that other people in the world would find out what the problem is and know that I was out there trying to do something about it. And what I, what was the timeframe for that? When did the webpage get built? Well, I started save the frogs in early 2008. So we've been [00:06:30] around for about six and a half years. So I built a minimal website and then I've always been adding to it. I add to the website, saved the frogs.com, uh, you know, several times a week. So it's now got several hundred pages of um, free, freely accessible information. Okay. Speaker 1:And we're talking to Dr Kerry Krieger of uh, save the frogs.com here on KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM. And this is method to the madness. And we are talking about how he started this organization [00:07:00] to save the frog. So let's talk about what saved the frogs does. So that's a little bit of how it got created. You started out with a web page and we'll get a little bit more to where you are today. I actually, I found you because you have a retail store front. I'd love to understand a little bit more about the strategy behind that. But let's talk about what is the focus of save the frogs? How are you going out and trying to execute your, your mission of saving the frogs? Speaker 2:Yeah, so we're a nonprofit organization. Our mission is to protect amphibian populations and to promote a society that respects and appreciates [00:07:30] nature and wildlife. As I said, uh, back in 2008 for certain, very few people knew that amphibians were in trouble and rapidly disappearing. And for the first 18 months of our existence, all we did was environmental education. So creating free educational materials for download from our website, giving live presentations, inspiring other people to go out into their communities around the world and [00:08:00] educate people about amphibians. So one of the first things that I did was start save the frogs day, save the frogs. Jay has become the world's largest day of, uh, Amphibian Education and conservation action. The first year and saved the frogs. They always takes place for the last Saturday of April, first year that we had it, we had about 40 educational events in 15 countries and I was the only employee of Save the frogs back then. Speaker 2:Did Not have a much funding at all, but we still got events happening in 15 countries. I thought that sounds like it's [00:08:30] pretty successful program. Let's keep going at it. And uh, since that time, we've had almost a thousand educational events take place in 59 countries. And so what I do is provide education, materials and ideas to people and provide them inspiration so that they will go out into their community, do something beneficial for amphibians that may be giving a presentation to their students or taking people out into, uh, the field to see wild frogs in their native habitats. We've had protests, [00:09:00] we've had rallies, um, 5k events and other things to get the community involved. So that was, um, our main focus in the early days, save frogs was all environmental education. Since then, we've also had, uh, campaigns to get bad pesticides, bands such as atrazine. And, uh, UC Berkeley has a long history of atrazine research. Speaker 2:Atrazine is one of the most commonly used herbicides on the planet. It's been banned in the European Union since 2004. Uh, it's [00:09:30] produced by the world's largest pesticide companies and Genta who's actually based in Switzerland where it is illegal, but we use about 80 million pounds of this herbicide here in America, primarily on corn. It's an endocrine disruptor that can turn male frogs into females at two and a half parts per billion, most commonly detected pesticide in us groundwater, rainwater and tap water. So we've been working to get that band. We've delivered about 25,000 petition signatures to the U S Environmental Protection Agency. [00:10:00] I've spoken there on several occasions. We've had a rally, a saved the frogs, a rally at the steps of the EPA and anyone who wants to learn more about that, save the frogs.com/. Atrazine A. T. R, a. Z. I. N. E. We've also had campaigns against frog legs. We've gotten frog legs out of about 77 supermarkets and two restaurants gotten dissect frog dissections out of about 18 schools. Speaker 2:And, uh, we've gotten habitat protected. [00:10:30] We stopped the construction of a 12 story condominium complex that was destined or slated to be built on Fowler's toad habitat in Canada. And, uh, more recently we've gotten into building wetlands. So we started building wetlands at schools and we planned to be continuing that program and, uh, have a goal of building a thousand wetlands over the next 10 years. California, about 90% of our wetlands have been destroyed or modified. So a lot of times when you go [00:11:00] out, um, walking or driving around, you're looking around, you may see dry fields and not even realize that that used to be a wetland. So one of the best ways we can help amphibians is to, um, create habitat for them or fix their old habitats that got drained. Oh, congratulations. Sounds like there's a lot of action that you've, you've generated to save the frogs. Speaker 2:And, um, but one thing I, when reading your website that struck me was, um, you know, the danger that the frogs are in and, and kind of their place in our ecosystem [00:11:30] gains a little bit about that because I don't think people really understand a critical, they are to the whole kind of, you know, the diversity on, on earth and how long their history is. So how, how much in danger are the frogs? Yeah, I am Fabian's have been around for in more or less their current form for 250 or 300 million years. So all life that's currently on earth is evolved. I'm on a planet that has amphibians. So amphibians are very important in [00:12:00] the food web. As I said before, they're eating flies, ticks, mosquitoes, uh, tadpoles are filtering algae out of the water. Most of us depend on community, um, filtration systems to clean our water. Speaker 2:So Tadpoles are actually keeping the cost of our water down by doing a lot of that filtration work. And, uh, birds, fish monkey, snakes, even dragon flies and beetles eat frogs, tadpoles and frog eggs. So a lot of animals depend on amphibians and if the amphibians disappear than lots of [00:12:30] other animal groups have trouble. And uh, let's see, I think your question was how threatened are they? Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, about 48% of all amphibian species are thought to be on the decline in numbers and about a third of them are already considered threatened with extinction. What threatened with extinction means is that if we don't do anything to mitigate those threats or to remove those threats, then we can expect those species to go completely extinct in the near future. [00:13:00] So that's a couple thousand species that could go extinct and the human population continues to grow. We're the cause of most of the problems that frogs face. And if people don't change their ways, then as the human population continues to grow, these threats will actually increase in the rate of extinction will increase. That's why we need drastic action to save the frogs. Speaker 1:And, um, another thing that struck me about when I was reading your website, we're talking talking to Dr Kerry Krieger, [00:13:30] the founder of save the frogs and you can check out more@savethefrogs.com. This is KLX Berkeley's method to the madness I'm here installing is, are one thing that struck me when I was reading your website, Carrie was um, that kind of symbiosis between frogs and humans. And specifically you talked about how they can be a leading indicator of major environmental issues because of the, is it the, um, Speaker 2:well frogs are bio indicators for a few reasons. They have permeable skin. [00:14:00] Their skin is a lot different than ours. Our skins meant to protect us by keeping things out, but amphibians can drink and breathe through their skin. That also means that bad pollution and pesticides can go straight through their skin and everything eventually makes it down to the waterways cause gravity's going to bring all those bad chemicals from factories, from people's houses, from cars down to the water. Even if it went up a smoke stack and went into the clouds, eventually it's going to come down in the form of rain, get into the water bodies where the amphibians live and breed [00:14:30] and they have that permeable skin. So bad pollutants can go straight into their skin. So, uh, that's one reason they're considered bio indicators. Another is they're amphibious. That means they have two lives, one on land and one in water. Speaker 2:And if something goes wrong in either the terrestrial or aquatic realm, amphibians have trouble. Another problem is that they're slow to move. They can't just fly off like a bird could. If it's forest got chopped down, something happens to the frogs forest or the swamp where it's, it lives, then [00:15:00] it's very slow to move. Uh, it may get run over on roads, picked off by predators, uh, could dry up in the sun. And also a lot of amphibians are just not genetically predisposed to traveling long distances once they're an adult. A lot of them just stick to their pond where they're at. Speaker 1:Okay. So, um, yeah, it's, it's a really, um, as you said, as the, all the kind of pollutants flowed down into the frogs watching what's happening to them could be a leading indicator of what's going to happen to us. That's another [00:15:30] reason for us to really be worried about their ecosystem. Sure. Humans are Speaker 2:disconnected from our relationship with the natural world, but we've evolved here. It's only in very, very recent history such as less than 1% of the time that we have existed that we have had modern day conveniences. But everything that we use comes from the natural world. All the minerals, fresh water, clean air, all of our natural resources for clothing [00:16:00] and building homes, all comes from the natural world. If we disturb our ecosystems, then we're going to have serious problems in the future. And you know, we can, we can coast by humans. They're doing pretty well in general right now, but it's at a major expense of driving wildlife species to extinction. We were in the middle of a mass extinction right now. So even if humans are waking up and being able to get our food really easily, do we want to live in a world where we're driving lots [00:16:30] of animals to extinction? Um, we've, you know, we all live on the planet. We have a right to exist. Frogs have a right to exist. Future humans have a right to exist on a planet with healthy ecosystems and wildlife. Speaker 1:Yeah, I find it really interesting about how you, you're talking about a major, major issue, but you're focusing on, you know, frogs is almost like a symbol of that issue, which is a really great tactic for lots of, um, people who start organizations to really be focused on one particular problem that really is representative of [00:17:00] a, of a bigger problem. So, Speaker 2:yeah, I think in saving frogs, we save a lot of other wildlife species and make a better world for humans. A lot of the actions that it takes to protect amphibians make the world a better place in general. And I do agree when I started, say the frogs, I didn't think of it as I'm going to do something different and focus on one species. But I did quickly noticed that most environmental groups are focused on, um, a type of action such as, [00:17:30] um, restoring habitat or a geographical location such as save some valley or something like that. And it has been really good working with frogs, uh, because people did not know a lot about them. And it does allow us to focus in on one, uh, one topic and really get into, yeah. Well, let's talk about your organization. So you started at, you had said you got to a fun from our grant, from the National Geographic that was actually during my phd and for my phd research. Speaker 2:[00:18:00] So when I started saving the frogs, uh, no, we did not have any funding. I had about $3,000. That was my, uh, life savings pretty much, and dedicated that towards getting saved, the frogs going paint off initial costs. And I actually, um, worked unpaid for 18 months before there was enough money to give me any kind of salary. So, uh, starting a nonprofit definitely is not easy. Um, certainly if you don't have wealthy financial connections and it takes, just takes a lot of hard work. [00:18:30] But we are able in this day and age to get a lot done based on having great technology and you know, you can start a website, it doesn't cost much. You can go out and give presentations, you can give free education, you can get people involved, you can use social media to get people involved. So there's lots of ways to run an organization on a low cost though, you know, it's certainly not ideal. Speaker 2:And if we did have a lot more funding we could get a lot more done. Currently we've got a myself [00:19:00] and two part time employees in the USA. We also have two full time employees in Ghana, west Africa where we have an international branch. But you know, we have so many campaigns that we could be working on. I could easily have a staff of 20 if we had funding available. And what is the primary funding sources? Just grants that you, you go after a, generally it's been donations from individuals. So just people who like what we do donating. And we also have memberships and I encourage everyone out there [00:19:30] to go to save the frogs.com/members become a member of say the frogs. We also have merchandise. We have an online store, uh, where people can buy organic cotton tee shirts, tote bags made of recycled plastic bottles and other eco-friendly fraud themed merchandise that helps us raise funds, help spread the word, gives people a easy way to start a conversation about frogs and educate their friends about frogs. Speaker 2:And we also, as he said, have a retail store slash education [00:20:00] center in Berkeley at San Pablo Avenue at the corner of Dwight. Uh, it's near cafe tree s in the Sierra Club and ecology center. And so people are invited to come by there. We actually, um, have occasional events of interest there too. And we have an events page on saved the frogs.com. And yeah, we also do occasionally get some grants. We just received a $24,000 grant from lush cosmetics. So sometimes those grants are from corporate donors. We've gotten fund [00:20:30] funding from nature's path, Inviro kids cereal, frog tape, chase bank. And we recently got a $20,000 grant for our habitat restoration efforts in west Africa from Disney worldwide conservation fund. Interesting. What does a, what does it make up company care frogs? Speaker 2:Well, yeah, we've actually gotten funding from the body shop also in the past. And I think some of these, a cosmetics company, they're into um, animals and that they don't do animal testing so they have some [00:21:00] inherent interest in animals. And also one thing I've noticed through the years is that a lot of our donors tend to be females and so perhaps females have a more caring side of them, I'm not sure. But that kind of goes along with it. So, uh, the body shop and lush cosmetics definitely have environmental giving programs, which I think, I personally think that all corporations should have environmental giving programs cause all corporations have an effect on the environment. Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, we're talking to doc, Dr Carrie Krieger, the founder [00:21:30] of save the frogs.com and you're listening to KLX Berkeley 90.7 FM. This has meant to the madness and carry you the one thing we have, you know, people who listen to this show who might be students who are thinking about, you know, some of the thoughts that you had as you knew you had some passion around this topic or you took this leap and now it's six years later after you took the leap and you know, you've established yourself and you know, you're the brand. If you will have saved the frogs and you've done so many education and so many actions, um, what kind of advice would you [00:22:00] give to a young person who wants to, who has it passionate about a topic like you have, um, and taking action against that passion? Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll start by saying that we're working on forming a save the frogs chapter at UC Berkeley. So if you're a student and you want to get more involved with save the frogs and definitely contact us, you can send an email to contact@savethefrogsdotcomorjustgotothesavethefrogs.com website or stop by our save the Frogs Education Center [00:22:30] at 25 24 San Pablo Avenue. And you can probably even talk to me when you're there in general, if you're interested, certainly in environmental issues, then I think the key is just learn as much as you can. Study hard, try to volunteer at most universities, there are graduate students doing wildlife research. You could probably use your help and you will learn a lot doing that. And also I think it's important too to volunteer at nonprofits. It's [00:23:00] a completely different set of skills you will learn. Then you generally learn while in the university and it's relevant and applicable to everyday life and professional life and broadens your perspective. Speaker 2:So the key, you know, with, with any career when you're starting out, you have to do your work in school, but you also have to volunteer, find an internship. Um, find a men mentor if possible and just work on getting all the experience you can, uh, try to [00:23:30] stick with things that inspire you. If you're doing some volunteer work and it's not interesting, then it's probably not what you should be doing. So I would just keep, um, keep finding things that interest you and keep working with people who, um, you like they do. And then you'll build up a skill set and get ideas of your own with whatever path forward you want to pursue. Speaker 1:And then taking that idea, like you started your own organization, what would you, what would be your advice for starting an organization like you did? Speaker 2:Yes. [00:24:00] Only start an organization. If you are extremely passionate about your mission and you really want to, um, get that mission accomplished because it takes a lot of time and effort and dedication and there's a lot of difficult times and in the nonprofit world there's a very high chance, especially if you start your own nonprofit that you will not be getting paid for some of that time. Certainly in the early, um, weeks, months, possibly even years. So [00:24:30] yeah, start an organization if there's a need for it. And if you're, if you really enjoy the work that you're doing and you really think that it's important. Speaker 1:Okay. Thanks. And the last question I like to ask people sitting in your seat right now is, you know, you've put so much energy into creating this new organization that has this really amazing mission to save frogs. It's like everybody knows frogs are, we loves frogs and you're trying to save them and it's something everybody can get behind. Um, if you were, if everything wants [00:25:00] to cope it completely right for you and your organization five years from now, what would save the frogs look like? Speaker 2:Yeah, we'd have a lot of people trained in how to build wetlands and we'd have a lot of schools, uh, and private land owners, building wetlands. And I would have an entire staff dedicated to building wetlands. Uh, that's, and I bring that up first topic because that's one of our major new focuses. Uh, we [00:25:30] now, um, have the ability to go out and fix land that was previously destroyed. And we've been, we've already started building wetlands at schools and it's really amazing educational opportunity for the students and teachers who are in, who are involved and it's great for the amphibians. And that school then gets an outdoor classroom for hopefully decades to come where they can spend time outside, which is something that in this day and age, a lot [00:26:00] of students certainly in America don't get the opportunity to do just based on the society that we now live in. So yeah, that's one of our huge focuses is building wetlands. And then I also want to have lots of chapters all around the world, whether they're university student chapters or just community chapters in lots of different countries. Speaker 1:Okay, great. Well, there's the vision from Dr Carrie Krieger, the founder of save the frogs. Um, a a Berkeley based [00:26:30] organization that has a worldwide vision to help our amphibian brothers and sisters survive into the next, uh, centuries and millennia or however long they've been. They've been around what, 300 million? So another 300 million years healthfully. So a, and you'd been listening to KLX Berkeley's method to the madness. My name is Ali [inaudible]. If you want to learn more about Carrie's work, you can go to save the frogs.com and uh, thanks for listening everybody and have a great Friday. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Toody Maher, founder of Pogo Park, discusses her project to help Richmond’s tough Iron Triangle neighborhood by redesigning a park and creating a safe area to foster free play for the neighborhood’s childrenTRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:You're listening to KLX Berkeley 90.7 FM, university of California and listener supported radio. And this is method to the madness. I show coming at you from the Public Affairs Department here on Calex that is dedicated to celebrating the innovative spirit of the bay area. I'm your host [inaudible] and today we are lucky to have 2d Mara with us. Hi Judy. Hello Ali. Uh, and today is the founder of pogo parks coming out of Richmond, California. So to the, um, welcome to the show. Thank you. And um, the first question I always ask [00:00:30] entrepreneurs like yourself is, give me the problem statement. You know, entrepreneurs are all about solving problems. What problem are you trying to solve? Speaker 2:Probably is all about children in play. I mean to, um, in order for children to be happy, they ha, oh, in order for children to be healthy, they have to play. And um, so I go into so many of these city parks and they're just so boring and so dull and homogenous and they all look the exact same. And when you really [00:01:00] break it down, there's very few opportunities for children to actually play in, in, in wild ways, which, which is how kids need to be playing. So kinda my first thought was just play leads to health. Speaker 1:[inaudible] define wild way. It's an interesting term. You just use. What's, what's wild? Speaker 2:Well, always, I mean the, I think back into my own childhood, you know, I think that if you look at every entrepreneur, anyone who's done well or has been successful creatively, [00:01:30] they've started a company, they've created a product, they've made a movie. If you look deep into their childhood, they all had rich play ex experiences. So for me, um, I mean I started a s uh, um, uh, block newspaper. I, um, created a, um, play inside our garage and sold the tickets to people in the neighborhood. Um, we, we, we built forts in dark rooms and um, [00:02:00] you know, all sorts of things. So, um, rich play experience, kind of this wild play where you can, um, build whatever comes in to your mind, set up games. I mean with no adults to come in and tell you what to do and not do. Um, yeah, that's wild play. Speaker 1:Okay. Thanks for that definition. Um, and so that's a really, you know, um, exciting and noble cause and I believe you went to cal, right? Yeah, Speaker 2:I did 1978 [00:02:30] to 83 and I took one year off and I lived in Switzerland, but I also actually was a part of the UC Berkeley, the volleyball team. So I was the first wave of scholarship athletes. So I like saying that I got into Berkeley, not because of my brains, but my Bronx. Speaker 1:Was that, is that all because of the title nine stuff? Correct. Speaker 2:So first wave of, um, scholarship athletes at cau. Speaker 1:Wow. Okay. So, um, so you were a volleyball player [00:03:00] was, um, and then you graduated, you probably didn't graduate with the intent to go and, um, champion wild play. So give us a little bit about your background and your story and how you arrived at this kind of problem you wanted to solve. Yeah. Speaker 2:Um, so I graduated in 1983 and the funniest thing is I had never first second thought what I was gonna do next. I never even thought about a career. And suddenly that I was out and I had no clue. Like, now I've got to earn money and what am I going to do? [00:03:30] So I knew somebody who owned a bond firm in La and my job was sitting in this back room with absolutely no windows with four men who smoked. And my job was to type up the transfers on bonds. If someone would buy a bond from the bank that I would actually type up the transfer slip. And, um, so, uh, they made me wear nylons. My nickname is 2d, but my given name is Susan. But I've never been called Susan my entire life. [00:04:00] They insisted they put a plaque on my desk saying Susan. Speaker 2:So they took away my name. They may be wearing nylons. I was stuck in a room with four men smoking. And I just, um, so it turned out that I had played volleyball in Switzerland and one of my, uh, teammates cousin was the inventor of the swatch watch in Switzerland. So I just thought, wow, man, I mean, um, could I import the swatches into the United States? So you'd seen them before they'd come. And so I had seen them when they had [00:04:30] just come out in Switzerland. They hadn't come to the United States yet. So what I would do is I'd go to the bond from each day, from eight til five. I had my hour lunch, then I'd get on a bus and go to the, um, I'd go to the, uh, business library at UCLA and started to look up how to import, export, how to start your company, what is cashflow, what's a balance sheet. And then I contacted swatch and just happened to get the head guy who, uh, who asked [00:05:00] me to do a business plan. And I said, sure, I'll do one. Then I went straight to the UCLA Library to figure out what is a business plan. And I wrote it. So when I did the presentation that he'd said, you know, your, your plan is, is bold, but, um, I like your Chutzpah. And he gave me the starting capital to, to found swatch watch in the 11 western states. Speaker 1:Wow. So, um, you're the reason when I was [00:05:30] in school, like I was in school in the 80s that everybody had swatches in California. Is that right? Yeah. So that, that was my main thing is just getting sweat and swatch was so creative and, and uh, so for our younger listeners who maybe don't know what, what was watching, it was a huge craze in that time. What was it? W I made it so cool Speaker 2:was that, um, they took a Rolex watch, which was one of the, you know, the, the greatest, the watches in the world. And they took, they figured out how to slim the amount of part parts down by a third [00:06:00] and then have a robot make the entire thing. So they were very cheap, inexpensive wrist watches from Switzerland for $30 at retail. And then they got all these incredible artists to come and make them really a design. Um, statement and this, um, kind of formula of just inexpensive, high quality, but high design just took off and swatch became a phenomenon. Like we started with zero in sales in 1983 [00:06:30] and then, uh, and then in our region in 1986 that the watch sales were 30 million. Wow. In three years, three years since swatches became a phenomenal 30 million in $86. It's a lot more right now. So part of it, and then one of our most, uh, the most successful product at swatch was the clear swatch watch. Speaker 2:Um, so what I did was I started another company called fun products and we made the world's first clear [00:07:00] telephone with lights. So, um, that was a fortune magazine's product of the year in 1990 and then in 1990 then I was also, um, awarded inc magazine, um, entrepreneur of the year. So kind of my thing was taking an idea and making it happen. So anything that you can think of, Oh, you know, why don't we make it clear telephone? Why don't we sell these watches all over California? Just give me idea. And I can make it happen. So that's kind of my specialty. But my goal was always [00:07:30] like, I'm going to get one day, I'm going to get so rich. And as soon as I get rich, I'm going to open a city park. Cause the city parks have always been my passion. Just like there's so much good can come from great city parks. Speaker 2:I mean, it's a watering hole for the entire community. You know, it's where everyone, the one thing that everyone loves is to just go places and sit and watch other people. You know, that's kind of like some sort of a town square and you can go and get, um, food [00:08:00] and your children can play and you, you don't know what neighbors that you're, you're gonna see. And, um, you know, just, uh, so I'd always wanted to, you know, that I've kind of like, uh, yeah, really excited to Kinda create these public spaces that are just incredibly vibrant. Speaker 1:Speaking with a Tutee Mar, the founder of pogo parks out of Richmond, California here on method to the madness on k a l x Berkeley 90.7 FM. I'm your host deleon is, are. So that's a good transition [00:08:30] to talk about, you know, you went on this entrepreneurial adventure, I'm assuming you didn't have to wear nylons anymore and you could use your name that you wanted to use. Correct. So, um, you start out on this path, you learned that you had the power to do whatever you wanted, you built companies, sold a bunch of products, and then somehow you ended up in Richmond and you started to actually execute on your passion of, you know, helping parks be something Speaker 2:that are the vibe part of a vibrant community. So take us through that story [00:09:00] of how did you transition from this kind of, you know, very entrepreneurial, but a more, um, private company focused, uh, type of efforts to what you're doing now? Yes. So, uh, when it turned out in 1987 that I wasn't getting rich, uh, my partner just said, look, you know, rather than waiting to get rich to do your part, just do it. You know, I never even thought about that and just doing it. So I was living in Richmond and I just started going to every single park in Richmond. [00:09:30] I, I w that Richmond has 56 parks and I went to all of them and probably the ones that I was most taken with are eight little small pocket parks that the city calls play lots and uh, two of the best play lots. Speaker 2:It was one Salono play lot right by my house. Then I fell in love with. And the second one was elm play a lot, which is a little pocket part lose in the middle of the iron triangle neighborhood in Richmond that's known throughout the Bay of just being [00:10:00] a really challenged, violent high poverty, um, inner city neighborhood. And um, so I kind of, uh, I just, um, started doing a lot of research and I looked at all like the greatest parks around the world. Like, what made them work, what were parks used for? What are the, who are the leading thinkers on parks, what are the history of parks and basically took all the best ideas from, from, from around the world and then applied it to creating this model [00:10:30] in Richmond. I'm calling Pogo Park, you know, where'd you come up with the name? Let's suppose apart from, well we've tried, I mean I'm from the business world. Speaker 2:Everything's branding, you know, so we got brand all things. So what is the name of this different kind of place space? You know, we wanted to have something that wasn't, if people were speaking English or Spanish or Vietnamese that everyone could kind of say it. It wasn't like a boy or a girl. So we were just, you know, again, sitting around one night and my partner Julie was thinking like play [00:11:00] opportunities, something po and then it just suddenly come up. Pogo. So it's a good little name, Pogo Park. It's pretty catchy. Yeah. Yeah. And you guys just were recognized by Google. That's actually how I found you about um, this, uh, grand bearer giving. And you got, I think you guys, we got a part of the top tag. Yes. So, um, of a thousand nonprofits that applied that they selected 10 finalists and the 10 finalists all got 250,000 and then ongoing [00:11:30] technical support from Google. Speaker 2:That's great. So branding's working people are finding you guys and recognizing you. That's so exciting. So, um, today I wanted to kind of, I was looking on your website and there's some elements of, of parks, uh, and it's probably from your research and now your experience and how many parks have you at this point kind of touched and, oh, just like hundreds. I mean now, once he's, I mean now all I do is when I go around, I look at parks I or look at any kind [00:12:00] of spaces that could be children's play spaces, airports, hospitals. I mean, so our thing is just creating like a different kind of play space that is really focused on letting children experience different kinds of play. There's creative play, there's physical play, linguistic play, social, emotional play. Um, so how do we create these spaces that give children the most wide variety of play opportunities? Speaker 1:Okay. So, um, [00:12:30] you're, you're always looking for the opportunities to create these play spaces. And it sounds like you've now in your research and your experience, gotten some best practices that you've published. And I'd like to kind of talk about some of these. I think there's some interesting insights here. You have. So one of them is that you use community designers and builders, which I think is really interesting because there's other models out there for doing in a neighborhood beautification. But a lot of times it's bringing a bunch of outside people in. Right. So tell me a little bit of how [00:13:00] you came to that principle of Pogo. Speaker 2:Yeah, probably if I was operating in a different, in a high income neighborhood, I would have a t a a different approach like that way, like good design can be brought in from people from, from the outside. And the people who are living there have such respect for quality that they're not gonna trash it. But in inner city neighborhoods, the only way is to build from the inside out. I mean you got to engage people who live right there. So they are a part of the whole [00:13:30] transformation of the neighborhood. And the transformation of these city parks is the vehicle for the transformation of the neighborhood. Um, so that is what I realized when my little shit blew into elm play lot, uh, in the iron triangle, I had no intention of starting to work out in a neighborhood like this is just fate had it. I got on my ship and the ship started sailing and I landed in the city park and this is where I had to start my work. So it had, it demanded a different [00:14:00] kind of approach. Speaker 1:And, um, in a place of the iron triangle, which has a lot of gangs and all, and not a lot of, um, I wouldn't think that there's a lot of, you know, um, interior designers who are experts in play are, I know who a kind of designer you have, but how did you find this community partners in this neighborhood that you were in? Speaker 2:The community partners? Yeah. Well, so, um, we've just been so blessed with kind of who we've met. So the first thing is I just started going and knocking on doors of all the neighbors that live there and [00:14:30] started getting to know them. And it took, maybe it took about four years of just constantly showing up for people to actually start acknowledging me, talking to me because it's just so much distrust of, uh, you know, a tall, white liberal person coming in to try and change things. And everyone's seen this procession of failed experiments that everybody comes in and in time that everybody leaves. So [00:15:00] it's really been like a trial by fire to get to know all these different folks. And, um, now we've really become this kind of this real family. And um, and uh, what I just started doing is like every time that I would raise money, I'd, I'd hire somebody or keep pumping money into the community so people were getting a job and their job is we have to transform this park and your job is [00:15:30] to help us make this park work and you're going to be running it, you're going to be in charge and we're gonna. Speaker 2:So we really have like this wonderful band of, of rookies who have learned to do everything that you could possibly think of. So, um, but one of the main things is we have learned a new language how to do the design, how to create the park on site. So rather than handing it over to a designer who comes in, give, get some input from the community [00:16:00] and then goes and does a design for the community, the community's actually generating the entire design themselves and it's like been working fantastically. Then the, we were blessed of connecting with this company called scientific art studio. They're a fabrication shop, really famous for and known for building the Mitt at the giant's Ballpark, that big million in left field. And they just finished a three point $5 million renovation of the [00:16:30] zoo at the playground, at the San Francisco Zoo. And so, um, the owners, Ron and Marin husband and wife are, are just, um, their businesses in the iron triangle. Speaker 2:So they're eight blocks from our park. So they'd been like, our key partners is teaching and training local people how to turn their ideas into reality. So Ron and Marin are basically like our master trainers of help us build and they've got incredible confidence [00:17:00] with the c. The city of Richmond is confident in these folks as well for helping us now that we've got this wonderful partnership going is the neighbors are building the park themselves and it's all passed all the certification and the Ada and the whole thing. So, and the, the money that we're raising to redevelop this park is in large part being directed back into the community, the community. So the community is getting jobs [00:17:30] to actually do the work themselves. So as everybody walks by, everybody knows somebody who's working there. So it's been, I mean in the few years we've occupied this one park that we've not had a single incident of graffiti or tagging or anything because that's just such a respected place. Speaker 2:The of the park again, elm play lot. Ellen play lots of trees. Yeah, this was the first kind of flagship first juggle park. This is the first pilot and it's really like right now [00:18:00] if, and just come down to eighth street in Richmond and see it. It is spectacular. So you were talking about you starting kind of getting involved with parks in the 80s but pogo park itself started relatively recently, it sounds like. Yeah, it started in that January, 1997 so it's been like a seven year journey of getting here. Okay. And I'm listening to today Mara, the founder of Poco Park here on Calex and this is method to the madness, a show dedicated [00:18:30] to the innovative spirit of the bay area. I'm your host, Ali and his are, and some of your other design principles I think were really fascinating. You talked about dedicated staff, which I think is a big part of what you do, right? Speaker 2:As you, you feel like the transformation can't just be the park, you have to have someone there who's helping to facilitate the freed, the play. Is that right? You're right. I mean the one innovation with Pogo Park, which isn't really an innovation, it's just what we're doing is ripping off the idea of the great ideas from, from around the world. There's many countries [00:19:00] now that have people that are trained in something called play work and they are trained. How do you use play to foster the healthy development of children? So in Norway, in Denmark for for instance, and also in England play that you can get a degree in play work. So these folks come into the playground and they seed the playground each day for high, high quality play. Like if it's a hot day, they're going to put out water or some sort of water play. Speaker 2:If it's a, [00:19:30] um, they'll put out, um, things called loose parts of sticks and stones and natural materials and fabric and boxes of, so children can kind of can create their own environment rather than having the environment in posts like, OK, here's a slide and you've got a slide on this mean kids can, you know, turn a log into a spaceship and they can. So, uh, so what we want to do is install play workers at Allen play lot is just have people there all day long that their job is create [00:20:00] this incredible mansion, uh, imaginative, high quality place space for children that is your job and create a safe and welcoming environment for all the families. So you're, you know, you're like the vibe master make, make everyone come in and have a good vibe and give kids a place to play. And this becomes the watering hole of the entire community. And even now people are starting, they're trying to buy houses around our park because [00:20:30] they all just want their kids to run outside and go to the only safe green space in the iron triangle right now. Nice. I think that I want that job title, vibe master prejudism. Uh, okay. Here's another, a w of your design principles I found. Um, interesting cause Speaker 1:you know, this is your kind of feels like you're building your template cause you want to do this a lot of places. So, um, you talk about, um, having basic amenities, there's must have amenities that must be there. [00:21:00] Um, comfortable places to sit, shade, drinking fountains and restrooms. So how did you arrive at that conclusion? Speaker 2:Well, if you ask anybody in the entire world, if you go to a playground, what, what do you want? And everyone's gonna have that same thing. Like first of all, you know, you gotta have a drinking fountain. You know, if kids are playing the, you know, you gotta get some water. Second, you gotta have a bathroom cause you, you, you don't want to go to the playground with your four kids. You got one kids kind of go to the bathroom or where are you going to go? And then, um, parents, the whole thing [00:21:30] about going to the park is you want to sit in the shade, chill, talk with your, talk with the other parents. Oh, watch your children plays. You don't have to deal. You know, I mean this is the good, it's supportive of the parents. Right? And then if you ever want to make a public space come to life, bring food in and bring music, you know, so, uh, we manage and our first pogo park at Allen play a lot in Richmond of getting all those things in. Speaker 2:And um, [00:22:00] the a snack bar was really tough cause I went to the city of Richmond, said, hey, look, the community would really like to have a snack bar and we want to cook our own food and we want to serve it. And the city said, hey, today, great idea. The only problem is we have an ordinance that prevents the sale of foods from city park. So no go. Um, so we worked with, um, a group of nonprofit attorneys in Oakland to come in and work and it took us two years to work with the city to overturn [00:22:30] the ordinance to allow the sale of food from a city park. So Pogo Park in Richmond is the pilot. So we've got food, we've got bathrooms, we've got cool places to Shay to, to sit in the shade and we've got just an outrageously great play environment. Speaker 1:Wow, that's a, that's amazing. You're actually overturning laws to get what you, what you want and that I guess, you know, we'll definitely engender the, the trust that you talked about building with the [00:23:00] community. They see you as a major partner in getting stuff done, which is really exciting. Uh, what occurs to me though is how would you, how would you be able to, this is a long project. How would you think about replicating this in other places when you know, the timeframe? I want to be shorter to actually make the impact. Sounds like it's been a years long project. Yeah. Speaker 2:Well, we got kind of have like the pogo park and big Taj Mahal pilot ship. And then we also have these little, the little tugboat pogo park where we can go [00:23:30] in to any kind of unclaimed forgotten land and quickly and rapidly build a children's play space and then put a shipping container in for $3,000 that doubles as an office and just put somebody there in a hat with a badge and a radio that looks official. And suddenly in two, three months you've got a playground. So, uh, that could run these high quality play experiences for children. So there's, that is kind of where I see as the [00:24:00] future of Pogo Park is we kind of have an all a cart, um, items that we, but, but um, the, we can go two ways of doing like this deep community transformation by reclaiming and doing it like big time or do these small little, um, guerrilla tactics. Speaker 2:Like just go out there and set it up and get it occupied, which by the way, that we're already, that we've been doing. Um, so we've had that we have a couple of parks that are, are pop-up [00:24:30] parks that we've just gone into and claimed and operated that were low in cost and deepen impact. So two ways. And that's exciting. Um, and you know, because one of the keys is having a staff, uh, there, it seems like that's a big question for the organization is how do you fund that? If you're going to have be hiring people, which I think, you know, objectively outside that seems like a brilliant move because then you have a community member whose livelihood [00:25:00] is tied to the park success or they're going to be much more motivated to actually, you know, drum up the support and get things going. Speaker 2:But how do you view that in terms of, you know, making that a long term sustainable position that you're creating? Yeah, so I mean I, I've sat and thought about this many, many a night. Uh, cause this is the, the key thing is how do you sustain the funding for the staffing? And you know, it really just looking from a business perspective, you have to have the diversified income [00:25:30] stream. So it could be quarter of the funniest going to come from the government. So it could be the city of Richmond is coming in with city staff on certain days. So that cuts part of our staffing down. It could be then it's also gonna be, um, contracts with, um, uh, you know, our earned income, um, that we've got, um, you know, and then, uh, foundation. So it, it's, it is going to be a diversified income stream through multiple [00:26:00] ways of, of raising the funding for staffing. Speaker 2:Okay. All right. Um, and we know one more question I want to ask and kind of the, um, you know, w intrigued me was this idea of the oasis of safety. And I know that the staff is a big part of that, but um, that's, you know, really when you talk about transformation, like a place like the iron triangle from, at least from an outsider perspective, all you hear is, oh, it's so dangerous. You know, you don't want to be there. You don't want to be there in a night. Falls. [00:26:30] You're talking about an oasis of safety in the middle of that. It. Tell me a little bit about how you think about that. Well, our little Park Allen play lot has become that. I mean it is become the one place that all good guys who want to do bad things now don't go and do it there. Speaker 2:Cause the community's really has taken it back. And the beautiful thing around this one park is there's all the houses that face it look right over the park. And everybody who's living there is totally investing in keeping [00:27:00] out it, add it up. And um, the way that it's become safe is it's busy all the time and somebody's always there. So if you're going to go do your s your bad thing, everyone knows, go do it over there. And uh, so there's been tremendous respect from the community and also a lot of people doing the bad things are relatives of people or people who are at our park know all their families. So, um, it does feel like there's some [00:27:30] sort of code to not touch it, you know. And, um, the main thing though is to take, to keep that there is to you know, is to keep investing in having this staffing cause really that you think about at work, we're spending $72 million on the police in Richmond, somebody too. Speaker 2:And that it might cost 100,000 in staffing time to just create this oasis for literally thousands of kids. Cause the iron triangle is one of the most densely populated com has [00:28:00] more kids per square foot than any other neighborhood in Richmond. When we looked at the census would, I'll tell you the numbers are low because there's a lot of families don't report. Um, there's something like 3,500 children within a five minute walk of elm play a lot from age oh to 11. So there are thousands of kids all locked inside watching video games, just blowing their mind, drinking sugary drinks, and suddenly here's this place that they know if your school's not doing well, if you're [00:28:30] not doing wallet home, that you can always walk outside Monday through Friday, there's an adult at the park, you're going to go to an environment that's safe, where people care about you. Speaker 2:And it's just been, a lot of kids were having problems at home cause their parents are just, you know, out. They're just coming there all day long. So it's really become, you know, it's safety comes in numbers. The more people are there occupying it and using it, the less problems that we're having. So that's really exciting. We're talking to Tutti Mar, the founder of Pogo Park [00:29:00] out of Richmond. Um, and um, today we have about 30 seconds left. Give me five years from now, if everything goes exactly the way you would want it, would pogo park, you're doing pogo park would be sending teams out to help communities build these little pop up parks all over the country that we'd be sharing all of our best prac practices at no charge to all with the underlying goal is like, let's as a country become known as a place that is creating [00:29:30] great magical places for children that would play cause with high quality play is the way to really build healthy and innovative and managed of children. Well, that's a great vision Speaker 1:from a great entrepreneur and one of cal zone and alumni. So thanks for coming back on to campus and talking to us. Thank you. Um, and this has been method to the madness on KALX Berkeley. You can learn more about pogoPark@pogopark.org. Is that right? D correct. And you can learn more about us by going to the calyx website and searching for method to the madness. [00:30:00] Uh, thanks for joining and have a great Friday. Everybody. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Interview with Cal student Ben Einstein about his venture VapeSecret, which is an e-cig company that is focused on helping smokers quit smokingTRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:Okay. Speaker 2:[inaudible] Speaker 3:you're listening to Kale expert, clear 90.7 FM. This is the method to the madness coming at you from the Public Affairs Department here at Calex, dedicated [00:00:30] to the innovative spirit of the bay area. I'm your host aliene Huizar. And today we have the founders of vape secret with us. We have Shawn Linehan. Hey Sean. How's it going? Good, how are you? Good. And Ben Einstein. Yeah. What's going on? What's up man? And then we got Dave, you lead. Thank you for having us. Hey, thanks for coming on the show. And this is really exciting cause we have three entrepreneurs with us who are actually cal students. That's right, right? Yeah. Okay. So two of your seniors and Davey, you are a junior. The Junior. Okay. [00:01:00] This is very exciting. And um, we reversed the first question we usually ask on this show is your, you've created something out of thin air. It's came from your brain, right? So give me, why don't we start with you, Ben. Give us the problem statement. Why did you, what is, what is the problem that you're trying to solve? Speaker 1:Hi Ma, I'm actually glad you asked me that because, uh, I think the problem that we had was mine. Um, Sean and I were actually working on a different project, [00:01:30] um, and we're working on the 11th floor of a building and every 20 minutes he would leave to go smoke. And it's really hard to develop any software if you're a coder is leaving every 20 minutes. Um, and so I said, why don't you try e-cigs and he said I did and they all suck. And I said, okay, let's make a good one. And 44 days later we did. What was the project you guys were working on? Yes, so we were [00:02:00] still working on, on that project as well. We're kind of doing two simultaneous things. It's crazy, but it actually is managing to work. Um, the other project is einstein.com which is an intelligent product recommendation Speaker 3:software. It's a mobile app that we're working on and is also making significant progress. Okay, great. So maybe we'll get to that later on in the day of the program. So, um, so you wanted to make an e cigarette cause you saw your friend Ben not be able to Sean not be able to [00:02:30] work for more than 30 minutes in a row, although a lot of coders have the same problem. Speaker 1:Yeah. Um, it was also the scent, um, the owner that, you know, smokers have, we're working in a small space and that was obviously, uh, not pleasant for everyone else. Um, but most of the Burton Lee's my friend, I didn't want him to die. So a good friend. Yeah. Smoking smoking's really bad. My grandfather died from smoking. I've always been pretty against it. And so I didn't really know much about the e-cig business. Sean [00:03:00] did a little bit of research and tried a couple, a couple of products and didn't like them. And so we figured out what the problems were with the existing product on the market. And what are those problems? Um, the most popular electronic cigarette is called blue. Uh, it's a little cigarette looking device, um, lights up blue at the end and it's very small and it doesn't produce a lot of vapor and smokers required a large amounts of smoke or in our case [00:03:30] vapor in order to be satisfied. Speaker 1:So it's not satisfactory. Um, it's also limited in that it's small in size, which means the battery's small, which means that you can't use it all day straight. Um, and we wanted to create a product that, first of all, it delivered the experience of smoking, uh, while simultaneously being able to do that all day while simultaneously being able to be affordable to people like us college students. Um, [00:04:00] and so we looked around and there were similar products that we wanted to create on the market, but there were being marketed for over 60 bucks. And that's out of the price range of most college students. And it's definitely out of the price range of putting entrepreneurs who are going broke. So, um, on here slash students, some students who are, who are on a student budget and spending all their extra money on trying to build, build the company. So, um, it came down to quality, um, [00:04:30] and affordability and, um, you know, we, we were hoping, we were luckily able to, uh, go through the entire product development, um, stage in, in just, uh, 40 days. And, uh, we were proud to have developed a pretty good product. Speaker 3:So what I want to get to your product development, we wanna tell that story. Um, but first tell me a little bit more about, it seems like from someone who's not really into this industry, that the e-cig market and in vape [00:05:00] market has exploded over the last few years or kind of they're everywhere, where you didn't used to see them very often. Tell us a little bit about the, the kind of macro backdrop again of the industry that you guys are trying to disrupt. Speaker 4:Yeah. So the industry has been around for a good number of years. Five to six years was actually invented by a dentist and in Asia, which is interesting, but you know, it, it, it's one of those products that sounds too good to be true. [00:05:30] You know, you get all of the benefits of smoking without any of the, the bad things. Right. And so for the past couple of years, um, you know, people were using them, they were being sold online, but there was so much pessimism about the product because nobody had ever really done any studies on them. Uh, so, you know, more, more and more research was done on the products. Uh, basically we find that although they're not perfectly safe, they are so Speaker 3:much safer [00:06:00] than traditional cigarettes, but they started to gain mass appeal. Um, and you couple that with companies like blue, who we, we don't really like, and they don't think they're that good of a product, but them having a lot of money in their bank accounts has, has really fueled the distribution of e-cigs. So you're 100% right in saying that they've totally exploded recently. Um, you know, it's interesting though because the products that have exploded are, are not the best products on the market. They're just the companies that have the most [00:06:30] money to have a blue, which is, you know, funded ridiculously. And then you have the other guys which are actually owned by big tobacco trying to keep people smoking. And I think they caught the realization that these products weren't going to go away and people were going to use them and people did want them and they joined the bandwagon. Speaker 3:So you're talking, you're listening to Shawn Linea and one of the founders of vape secret and all three founders are here helping us to learn more about the [00:07:00] product that they've come to market and they're also cal students to seniors and juniors. This is very exciting to have some cal local entrepreneurs on the program. So you guys are telling the story about, and this program by the way, as method to the madness on KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM. And so you were telling us about, you guys were building this software program, einstein.com and um, and Ben, you realize that Shawn was going [00:07:30] out and smoking every 30 minutes. Like, Hey, let's do another project to building a e-cig. And I would assume this is my belief. But you were not at e-cig expert when you came up with the idea. Is that right? I'm not at all. Speaker 1:I, uh, I, I was not an expert at then, but I can pretty confidently say that I'm an expert. Now. Tell me Speaker 3:about like when you, you had the idea, and I'm always interested in this kind of, this spark of innovation, like the thunderbolts hits, you're like, Whoa, [00:08:00] that's an idea. I know nothing about it, but it's an awesome idea as to take us from that moment to how you 44 days later, whatever it was, had a product. Speaker 1:So, uh, so first of all, Sean and I are not, uh, engineers in the sense that we don't, we're, we're primarily business guys. Um, we're primarily nerds and second, secondly, we're primarily business guys. And, um, the electronic cigarette idea kind of came about, um, for, for two reasons. First [00:08:30] of all, obviously it was practical because, you know, I didn't want John to smoke cigarettes anymore. But also, um, starting a company with no profitability in forecast is very difficult. Um, especially if you don't have much money. And so we saw this as an opportunity to solve a problem that we had and we assumed that other people had, but also to make money, um, so that be able to find that through our lives so that we can actually work on einstein.com. Um, [00:09:00] electronic cigarette industry is huge. And what we noticed is that aside from there not being a good product for this specific type of, of, of use case that we envisioned, it was also very complicated. Speaker 1:Many people didn't know about this. Um, it's almost as if, you know, you take an alien and introduced an iPhone too. I mean, you wouldn't really understand how to use it or how to, how to get, how to, how to get the value out of it. And a lot of electronic cigarette e-tailers are websites, um, had many, many products and it's very, [00:09:30] very confusing and overwhelming for someone to go through that and figure out what to use. So we saw our space as being the simplest electronic cigarette you can buy in that it literally takes 30 seconds to go through our entire website and fully customize an electronic cigarette. You get to choose from 20 different flavors. It's all done in a very, um, user friendly and beginner focused, uh, way so that people [00:10:00] who know nothing about electronic cigarettes can successfully purchase from us quickly, easily, and with confidence because we explain everything in such simple terms. Speaker 1:And so we sell one product, we have one unit, it's available in six different color combinations. Um, we literally walk you through the process. We tell you exactly what you're getting wide good, what's good about it. Um, and we're really focusing on the people that have been thinking about it. I've [00:10:30] heard about it, but haven't really pulled the trigger on getting electronic cigarettes. And we kind of want to be that first step, that stepping stone, taking them away from smoking these dangerous cancer causing traditional cigarettes and moving them on to this new, this new type of, of electronics of electronic cigarette so that they can get all the benefits of smoking without dying young or through the business car talking. I get that you are a good business guy. He's just giving [00:11:00] me exactly the problem and what you're trying to do to make it easy to solve. Speaker 1:But it take us a little, a little detour here and talk about the engineering side of it. So you guys have, you wanted to build an actual product that like does some stuff right? That creates more of a vapor and is cheaper. And so how did you go about the manufacturing process of coming up with the actual product? Um, so from a, from an engineering perspective, the electronic cigarette [00:11:30] consists of three components. First of all, as a power source, which is a battery, uh, second of all is what's called an atomizer, which actually, uh, takes the vapor, takes the liquid and vaporizes it. And the third component is the liquid that you're actually uprising. What we did is we did a huge amount of research into various manufacturers of these components. Um, we did a huge amount of testing on these products. I would get prototypes, give them to Sean, he'd smoked [00:12:00] them for a couple of days, tell me what was wrong with them. Speaker 1:And we work with suppliers all around the world who made this stuff to put together the unit that we have today, which is basically a collection of components from a bunch of different places. And the way we selected each part was first of all, for again for quality, which is our core. And second of all, for affordability, we wanted a product that was sub $30. Um, and so the, for example, our [00:12:30] liquids, um, they're made with food grade, all food grade materials. Um, our flavorings come from Italy. They're, they're food based flavorings. Um, again, we're trying to move away from the general idea of electronic cigarettes as being dangerous and trying to attach some sort of, of tangible, um, healthfulness though as much as we can in this type of product. So that we can actually say that we've [00:13:00] done our, our, our, our, our, our best effort in terms of trying to make this product as good for you as possible. Speaker 1:So, um, you know, the, the battery we selected was, was selected with, with people like Shawn in mind, people that smoke all day, they need a product that lasts all day. A battery can't die because that's my biggest fear. That's our biggest fear is that someone's battery dies and then they go to seven 11 to buy another pack of cigarettes are real vision is helping people quit. And we've done that very successfully. [00:13:30] And the way we do that is by, by creating a product that lasts all day, it's got a USB charger in the bottom so you can literally plug it into your, your phone charger or your laptop and use it while it's charging, which is a very unique feature. Um, our atomizer is some, one of the simplest on the market. And most importantly in terms of, in terms of, of, of, of our, our consciousness towards the environment is [00:14:00] everything about our product is rechargeable and we fill up. So unlike most of the products on the market where you buy a product and then you have to keep on buying the refills and cartridges and all sorts of new components, which you then throw out. Our product is fully rechargeable and we fillable. So not only is it more affordable for the customer, but in our opinion it's also better for the environment. Um, so yeah, that's basically the, the, the focus that went into the engineering side of what we were doing. Speaker 3:Okay, thanks. [00:14:30] You were listening to Ben Einstein, one of the founders of vape secret, a new company formed here on the UC Berkeley campus dedicated to helping people soft smoking by creating a affordable high quality e cigarette. Um, and I have the founders with me here, Sean Linehan, Ben ice, the name Davey Lee. Um, so 44 days. That's a quick time. So how did you get, it sounded like you had to test some different components and stuff. So how, [00:15:00] how did you get the capital to, go ahead. I'm Shawn you and tell me about how, how did that process work? How were you, how many atomizers did you have to buy before you found the right way? Speaker 4:Yeah, so it's, it's, it's actually really interesting. So we didn't take sort of the bottom up approach to engineering our product. Like you might imagine some companies do. We didn't go into cad and, and mock up all of these individual components that we then have to tool ourselves. We recognize that we [00:15:30] only really had a couple thousand dollars of our personal savings left and we needed to make due on that limited bandwidth. So what we did is exactly what Ben was saying was like, we, we went to factories with premade components and figured out how can we put them all together. Right? Um, so the, the capital constraint was pretty significant. We, we took some of the money from our other company, which we also completely self-funded just from our savings accounts, um, and bought [00:16:00] dozens of dozens of these atomizer components and just kept testing them and when they wouldn't work, uh, and some, some of them just outright didn't work, which is ridiculous. Speaker 4:You know, you're getting samples from companies that were trying to become our main suppliers for these components and they chest were broken, um, and cross them off full list. Yeah, exactly. Those guys we don't even have to worry about, even if their first sample doesn't work, you know, it's just not worth that. Um, so, you know, Ben Ben took the efforts in terms of [00:16:30] getting all of the different sample products and the, the engineering components of it. Um, and he did all of these different pieces simultaneously. So it wasn't like, okay, now we've got to find the perfect this, finished that and then find the perfect that and finish that. No, he, he sourced batteries and clear misers and liquids and atomizers and all of these different pieces concurrently so that we could, you know, test all the different configurations. Um, and you're right, 44 days was, it was a sprint. Speaker 4:So, you know, we had [00:17:00] this other company that we didn't want to ignore for too long. So Ben, while he was doing that, I then went with Davey to work on the website. I don't, we're primarily an ecommerce driven product. We don't sell in stores, we sell exclusively through our website. And so Davie and I worked on trying to perfect a beautiful design for our site, making it sleek, making it intuitive, making it the type of experience that I would feel comfortable having my mom on. [00:17:30] Right. And funny story, she actually did, did quit using our product, which I'm really proud of for my mom, my stepbrother, my brother and my stepdad and my best friend all quit using my product [inaudible] and myself. Quit, quit using it. So you know, that that was the aesthetic that we set out to do. And you know, luckily between Davey and I and Ben's input as well on the design, we were able to make something that, that we're really proud of. Um, Speaker 3:that, that's amazing. Congratulations. I mean, your [00:18:00] return on investment right there is huge. If you have your whole family quit complete smoking cigarettes and you have to, I mean when you say quit, I mean you still smoke, you smoked a e-cigarette. Right? And I've, I've been interested in this. I've seen like people and I was in an airport last week and it's like guys smoking and E-cigarette in the airport. And I was wondering like, what's the, um, there's no actually no second hand smoke issues or bathe second hand vapor issues [00:18:30] with an e-cigarette. Speaker 4:No. So, uh, at least according to the most recent studies, and I'd cite the name if I can think of it off the top of my head, but, uh, basically the, the deal is the only detrimental piece of the second hand vapor is exposure to nicotine. Now to your average healthy adult, non infant adult, like, you know, anybody 10 and up, um, and 80 and down, this has absolutely no problem. Or like, if you're pregnant or you're an infant, [00:19:00] I still would not recommend, you know, having vapor blown directly in your face. It's just, there's no proof that it's very bad for you, but you know, nicotine is in a high enough quantity, not good for you. Um, but for your average person, I mean this, this really has very little health health side effects. The, the vapor itself is comprised of a, of a thing called propylene glycol. It sounds scary, but honestly it's one of the most heavily researched [00:19:30] just components, um, over the past eight years. And it's found to be completely safe. It's in inhalers, it's in food. I mean, it's literally in a significant portion of the products we use on a day to day basis. Um, and that's what makes it visible, the vapor visible, um, and it's safe. So, Speaker 3:so when, when smoking is bad for you, it's not necessarily the nicotine that Speaker 4:creates a lung cancer. It's the smoke, certainly not the, the, the deadliness [00:20:00] of, of cigarettes is significantly, significantly not associated with the nicotine. Nicotine is a chemical is bad for you in high doses, like very high doses, but in the dose, that level that you're using cigarettes, it's not the component that's hurting you. The component that hurting you is the smoke itself, right? Like you're literally burning plants. There's thousands of other chemicals added to cigarettes and that's what kills you. Yeah. Speaker 3:Okay. [00:20:30] Very interesting. So we're talking to Shawn Lenahan, then Einstein and Dave, you either the founders of vape secret. It is a e-cigarette company founded here on the UC Berkeley campus. They're all students here at cal and have launched this new enterprise. When did you guys launch? Speaker 1:We launched a late July, late July, July. We, uh, we, we actually launched a website and a, it's funny, we actually got, um, interviewing by cvs in [00:21:00] San Francisco, um, on television and that was kind of the jumpstart for our business. And um, the, the core for what we're doing is not you selling your product today. We put you on a regimen where we wean you off of nicotine completely, which is kind of backwards. Our business professor theta sort of this, Speaker 4:yeah. Basically we, we aim to lose our customers over time. And the way we do that is [00:21:30] we, Speaker 1:you start you off at at a certain nicotine content and we slow you month to month. We send you new liquids every month that lower at, at increasingly lower nicotine contents. Shaun started off at 18 milligrams, I think. Yup. Um, and he, and now he's, what are you smoking now? Speaker 4:Three. And it's funny because for the first two months I actually was at the 18, um, for a longer period of time than I should have been. Cause I didn't want to, we were running out of inventory. Right. We had a very little capital. So we kept having to [00:22:00] continue to buy small quantities, smaller quantities, bigger quantities at a time. Um, so I was using the 18 cause we had a lot of that and I didn't wanna use the inventory that we were going to sell to our customers to help them quit. So, you know, somebody, somebody that we would, that we would have as a customer starting today would quit much faster than the 10 months that it's taken me. They would quit over a period from lot of nicotine to no nicotine, three to four months, just for frame of reference, 18 milligrams. Speaker 4:So you said, yeah. [00:22:30] What does that equate to? Like how many packs a day is that? It's about, uh, between like three quarters of a pack to a pack a day. Um, it's depending on how often you actually use the device. It works for somebody who's up, even up to two packs a day. It's really the strongest, uh, levels that we recommend using. And how does the, so the, it's almost a years of a service. It's not just a product. Correct. Cause you're sending people the lick, the smokeable liquid, if that's the right term. So a Cho, what are the economics [00:23:00] on our liquid versus packs of cigarettes? Yeah. So one, one liquid, which we sell for $5 is equal to about three packs of cigarettes in terms of time spent using it. Um, so one, one liquid lasts an average person. I'm a little bit under two, a little bit more than a week, which is about the same that somebody would have about three packs of cigarettes. Um, unless they're very heavy smokers. But with the vape it's about a week with the one bottle. So we're [00:23:30] literally saving lots of money. Right. I mean I was a smoker for 15 years, but that was years ago when I quit cause I'm an old guy. So what was the, uh, what are the packs of cigarettes go forward today? The ones hours I was, were Speaker 1:about $7 on the average in Berkeley. Wow. So just right there just to save money, you should, you should buy vape secrets, right, man, we actually have a calculator on our homepage where we can tell you exactly how much you'll save this year. [00:24:00] Uh, if you switch, if you switched to electronic cigarettes. Nice. Um, okay, so you guys started in July, so you've been around for about three quarters now and you, you're showing your whole family as quit basically. It's not a like, yeah, you're on the road to quitting. Tell us some more, like how many have you sold? How many stories do you have of people quitting? Um, we, we try to keep in touch with all our customers. Some people it's easier. Some people it's harder. We actually have discovered [00:24:30] that we appeal more to older people because of the simplicity of the site. Speaker 1:Um, because of the simplicity of the product. And older people are generally not as, uh, into communication, especially the email and things like that. Um, so there's been a little bit difficult for us to, to keep track of those numbers. Exactly. Um, we've taught, we've helped dozens of people quit and we've sold hundreds of units. Um, so, um, the business is growing and our only constraint right now is [00:25:00] really, um, is just, you know, getting the word out there. Um, getting, getting people to learn about it and word of mouth has proven to be our strongest marketer. Uh, we hope maybe this, this presentation might help us also a little bit. Um, but the, the important thing for us is that we want to be able to maintain this experience, this personalized experience, um, without getting that diluted by, by getting [00:25:30] too many customers too quickly. Speaker 1:And so, you know, every package we s we ship out is hand packed by us. There's, you know, we, we hand write a note to every customer and we try to develop a really strong personal connection and relationship with them because smoking is an emotional thing. It's a very personal experience. And we're, you know, who are a bunch of kids that come into someone's life who's been smoking for 30 years and tell them, hey, we can help you quit. Um, it's, it's a very bold statement for us to make and it's something we don't take lightly [00:26:00] and we try as hard as we can to make that experience as pleasant and as professional as possible. So it's only, you guys have two businesses, but you're also seniors. A cow. What majors do you guys have? A, I'm a business major. We've mastered the art of, of being good students while simultaneously, uh, trying to be good entrepreneurs. So you are your business as well then? I know I'm not a business major, I'm just the business guy. Um, I [00:26:30] uh, I made development studies major. Um, I learned about developing economies and things like that. Um, but I read a lot about business and uh, Shawn teaches me everything that's important to know that he learns in Oz. You Speaker 3:guys are, uh, it's April. So graduation is staring you in the face and you have two businesses. Yeah. Is that the plan, you guys are going to go full force after May. Speaker 4:That's, that's the plan. Yeah. And we're not, not gonna [00:27:00] not gonna hesitate, you know, actually can't wait to graduate so we can really sit down and focus. Right? Like focused is the biggest issue. Um, with school you, you have varying schedules all the time. You have different wake up days every day, right? Sometimes you have class at eight, 10, 1112 and we're, we're ready to be able to, to truly dominate. Speaker 3:Yeah. So did tell me about the path to domination you felt like your, and we're speaking with the founders of vapes, secret hearing methods [00:27:30] of the Madison on KLX Berkeley 90.7 FM, Ben Einstein, Sean Lennon and David Lee. These guys who started this business while trying to graduate from cal, they're about to do that. So I want to know now you're going to graduate. The shackles are off. You can drink from the capitalist Downton as much as you want. So what, what's the difference? How are you going to get from where you are today to selling thousands of these helmets? How big a market did you save? This was Ben Speaker 4:big, is it? [00:28:00] So last year it was a one point $3 billion industry and it's projected to hit 15 billion over the next 10 years. Speaker 3:Okay. So if you can get half, half of a percent, you're doing well, how are you going to get there? Speaker 1:Um, we were really working on trying to get our, um, our supply chain in place so that we can actually, uh, produce these products in, in really high quantities. Um, right now we're kind of doing small dots [00:28:30] runs, which keeps our costs higher than they should be or merged. Immersions are still fairly healthy. Um, but we can always do better in that sense. Um, but again, it's in test. This is, um, this is something that we started out of necessity and we realized that this was an opportunity to really help people quit smoking. And so we're actually passionate about it. We really care about this. And you know, anyone we meet who smokes weed, you try and convince them to quit, not just so [00:29:00] we can get a customer, but also cause we, we think smoking's bad. Shawn is in better shape than he's ever been. Speaker 1:He, he doesn't get tired running up and down stairs anymore. Um, not that programmers do that much, but he actually goes to the gym more than any of us do. Um, but you know, for us the, the important thing was, um, you know, what did Winston Churchill said, don't let your school and getting in the way of your education. Um, we, we've learned more in the past year working together than we probably have [00:29:30] in all four years of college. And so at this point, um, where we're going to go, just in terms of the time commitment. Also for me, I'm putting myself through school. So, um, you know, the financial and the financial responsibilities of paying for college, um, have been, have been, uh, pretty serious on my family and you know, the opportunity to be finally be able to work full time, um, on what we're trying to do. Um, the ability to dedicate not only all [00:30:00] of our physical time, but our mental capabilities. I mean, if we're studying for a test until three in the morning and then we try to come into work the next morning, we're not 100%, whereas if we don't have tests anymore, we can actually dedicate our entire, you know, she be you in our brains to, um, to building new businesses Speaker 3:and thanks to you guys for coming on today and telling your story about how you sorted vape secret. We'll have to have you on another time to talk about Einstein. Um, but you've been listening to the band, Einstein, Sean Lenahan [00:30:30] and David lead of the founders of vapes secret. They're a seniors here on campus about to graduate and go full force into this, um, e-cigarette company that I've created. Um, and to learn more that you guys can go to vape secret.com right. That's the URL to check out. Speaker 1:That's correct. And actually there's a, a special cow promotion for Berkeley students. Uh, if you place an order, you put into words, go bears into the coupon code and you'll get 10, 10% off of your [00:31:00] sale. Speaker 3:Alright, we got a plug in at the aunt's, a nice word fan. And uh, thanks for coming on guys. You've been listening to KLX Berkeley's method to the madness. Have a great Friday. Everybody. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Discuss the first Farsi immersion pre-school in the country, located in West Berkeley, which runs as a non-profit and also has outreach programs to help other communities create similar schoolsTRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:You're listening toK , a l x Berkeley 90.7 FM university and community sponsored radio. And this is method to the madness and show from the public affairs department at Calex that explores the innovative spirit of the bay area. And we're always happy to see data about the bay area because we love it. So we want to understand it more. And of course the 2010 census data just came out and I thought, I read you a few statistics that are interesting about [00:00:30] our diversity. We have three and a half million white people in the bay area. That's a slim majority, 52% congratulations to you. 1.2 million Asians, 1.3 million Hispanic, half million black and a million didn't change of the rest of us. The rest of the world population all thrown together here and experimenting with the American dream for many barrier residents whose families immigrated relatively recently. The challenge of adapting to [00:01:00] America while preserving a link to your heritage is a tricky task. But one local woman has made it her mission to create a new model for how to pass culture down to future generations. Please stay with us to hear her story. And uh, today we have with us [inaudible] y'all, them and Deb are from Gulistan kids, a preschool in west Berkeley as the first preschool of its type in, is it the country? Yeah, in the country. It's a Farsi immersion program. So welcome y'all to thank you. [00:01:30] And so y'all know, we'd like to start off the program about, um, talking through the problem statement. So you, you kind of came to this realization that there was a problem and you wanted to start, you started a nonprofit to solve the problem. So give us the problem statement. Speaker 2:Well, it happened organically actually. Um, I had my first child. Um, I am married to an American man and I live in Berkeley and I don't have any local family prisons speaking [00:02:00] family. So I um, uh, I was working, um, but after a while it was hard to manage working and I needed childcare for him and I couldn't find anybody. I couldn't find the daycare, school nanny, I was looking everywhere. So they are out there, the nannies. But um, I put a posting in the Berkeley parents network listserv here and um, the only other person that responded was another parent looking for the same thing. Speaker 1:And you were looking for a Persian speaking to any, [00:02:30] is that right? Speaker 2:Anything, any type of childcare that would be person speaking. Okay. I asked, you know, I said and nanny, daycare, co-op preschool, anything. And that was the only response I got. So she told me why I'm looking for the same thing. Will you share with me what you find? And um, we ended up meeting and from there started a playgroup. Um, and the people in that playgroup, they are all looking for the same thing. They, and basically what we was support [00:03:00] and teaching our children our language and passing down our culture. I think we all lived in this sort of vacuum. We didn't really know many run INS locally with kids. And um, and from there it became the subtle, uh, regular weekly gathering and then it became a co op and had a life of its own, but we weren't even incorporated yet. Speaker 1:So, um, a lot of the, I consider you an entrepreneur, right? Really you're really starting a new thing from scratch and a lot of the entrepreneurs that we speak with on the show have this moment [00:03:30] of inspiration where you mentioned you kind of had competing professional things in your life and you had to make this choice that how did did, was there this moment, this magical moment where like, yes, this is what I'm going to do because that's a big cliff to leave leap off of. Right? Speaker 2:Yeah. No, it sounds crazy as far as I can remember. I don't think there was a magical moment. I think it really did take a life of its own by the time, by the time that I, we made this [00:04:00] decision because we did it as a group. I wasn't the only one involved. We had that playgroup, original playgroup was very involved in the co op. Um, but by the time we got to that juncture, um, I was working my butt off and I had a newborn child and I was just in survival mode basically. Um, and it was really, I got to a place where I had to make a decision, which one did I have to stop either my work or the school and I couldn't give up [00:04:30] to school because I felt like it was too important. We were all really intertwined in it. By that point, our kids were just really thriving and w they began to have strong identities as Iranians. And it was amazing. It had exceeded all of our expectations in terms of the impact that it had on our kids. Speaker 1:Now, one of the things that I think is really unique about it is that you are, you're teaching your kids Iranian culture, but you guys all [00:05:00] were born and raised here or raised here. You're mostly American, right? So you're first generation, is that they're right? Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Some of us have lived there a little bit. Most of us. It depends. We have a little bit of everything. Yeah. Some of us lived here our whole lives. Speaker 1:Okay. So you all had this very strong desire to teach. And was it Iranian culture or was it Farsi? What was the act? Was it the language mostly? Speaker 2:I think for me it was the language and I think it was more than that. [00:05:30] It wasn't even, it was about our kids, but it was a lot. It was about us too. It was, you know, when you, as you know, when you have a child, um, especially for young mothers, but for both parents it's very isolating. And so here you are in this phase in your life where you feel very isolated. You're just, it's a whole other world that you'd send this little bubble and you're already feeling a little bit uprooted before you have children, when you're by cultural, but then you have a kid and you're just like, what? Where [00:06:00] do I belong in this world? So I think it gave us a sense of, of rootedness or you know, gave us some, some like a place where we, we could connect with people that were similar. Speaker 2:So that was as a, from a parent's perspective, um, and for kids, I think it was more about language. I think so. I mean language and culture are really very intertwined as well. Very connected. Um, this original playgroup was [00:06:30] meeting, were you guys meeting in the same place every time? We are meeting weekly in a park, so you'll see the natural progression. We'd meet weekly in a park and then the rays, rainy season started and they're like, well, what are we going to do now? We didn't want to stop. So we contacted the person center, one of our founders, um, her sister was involved with the pre one of the founders of the person center in Berkeley and they let us use their space. I went to a week and then we were like, well this is great. But I personally, I was like, well, I still need the childcare. Speaker 2:This [00:07:00] is really fun. But you know, so we brought in a teacher and then the parent would rotate with the teacher and then eventually brought in a teacher's aide who's actually still with us now. And um, and then we made a daily, a daily program is starting to rent the space of the person center and then we outgrew the person center very quickly. My kids were there when you guys were just at the Persian center. We had, I think about eight different kids had different schedules. So I think we're about eight to 10 kids total that were involved. [00:07:30] Um, but we had a waiting list at that point. We weren't even anything, you know, word of mouth. People found out about it. Yeah. Yeah. And then even then people would email me and ask me, people from other cities would ask me if there was anything similar in their area. Speaker 2:And that's when I did the research. I found out there wasn't anything anywhere. And very early on as we decided to take it to the next level, it was clear that we needed to help [00:08:00] other people create some of the programs because they were coming to me for advice and guidance. And I, I didn't want to turn anybody away. Um, so when we were filing our five, a one c three applications, we made that as part of our mission to help other communities and to be a resource for families, other schools and educators and communities to say, Oh, I want to talk about that a little bit later in the show. This is method to the madness [00:08:30] on KLX Berkeley 90.7 FM to university and community sponsored radio. Thanks for listening. My name's Eileen is art. And today we're interviewing Yalta Middelburg, executive director of Goldstone kids. And I wanted to ask, so you, um, you started to have these eight kids at the Persians Center and you did the research and found there's not really any program like the one you're trying to create. So the next step I would guess would be to create a curriculum. Speaker 1:Is that right? So how, how do you go about creating [00:09:00] one out of thin air? Speaker 2:Well, we did everything all at once. Um, there were a lot of moving pieces at the time. First we had to find, um, well actually when we're at the Persian center, the curriculum was very teacher directed, um, because we didn't have a big picture in mind. But then when we moved into our current building, we started to, once we started to settle in more, we started to develop a much more rich curriculum that was, [00:09:30] you know, just much more developed. And now it's actually quite unique and, and um, robust, I guess I don't know what the right word is, but, uh, so to answer your question, there were, it wasn't like, you know, let's sit down and tackle the curriculum. It was, okay, we got to fill the space. We've got to fill now. We had extra space, we had to get more kids, we have to figure out scheduling and, um, how are we going to deal with invoicing and, um, of the logistics that go [00:10:00] behind running a nonprofit and all the logistics of running a preschool program. Speaker 2:Um, and an afterschool program. We're not just a preschool, but also an after school program. That was starting then because some of our founding kids were going to kindergarten. Um, and so in the beginning it was just sort of winging it, but then as things started to settle in the school, then we could really put our, a lot of work can do it. And it's, um, it was a collaborative process with the teachers and, [00:10:30] um, various teachers in various stages of our development. And now it's almost complete. Like we run on an annual, um, we have an annual curriculum and it's a monthly theme, and though it's going to continue to evolve and become richer, it's pretty much set. We've, we, we came back full circle in September, so that's great. Now we're repeating. That's wonderful. So what are some of the themes? Like what do you guys go over with the kids? So we start, [00:11:00] um, in September we start with me, myself and my community. And then, and October it's me and my body. And so unit on health and hygiene and your senses as well. Um, and then in November, it's, um, different careers and vocations and how they relate to community. Then we move on just in December, we take a little bit of break and we talk about seasons [00:11:30] and holidays and cultures. Um, and we have a Speaker 1:all, is it all [inaudible] like, um, it related to Persian culture or how you're, it's just, you're talking about you're teaching the kids. He's are, and what ages are the kids? It's Speaker 2:so the kids are two to five in the preschool program. And then after school we use the same themes for the whole school. After school it goes up to fourth, fifth grade. So you're teaching a kid some universal things that they need to understand, but it's all in Farsi. [00:12:00] Right? That on the same sentence. This is Farsi English. But um, to answer your question about culture, uh, we do have a social cultural day on Fridays for the morning programs where we learn. Um, we basically teach them about one culture every week. It's actually, we used to do it just basically pick a culture out of a hat, um, every week. And then it felt like they didn't have much context. They learn about Japan and then France next week. So now it's uh, [00:12:30] over a two month period we cover one continent and every week on Fridays they're, their food relates to that culture, the projects that they have that they relate to that culture so that they have an idea of the whole world. Speaker 2:So what I tell people is that this is a program that's um, that's like if you imagine your ideal preschool or afterschool program, whatever it is, it's just ideal program that just happens to be in Persian. It's not, the focus is not teaching kids Persian. They happen [00:13:00] to learn it just by being there and being immersed in it. Yeah. And to that point, you guys have non Persian children who are now attending or on the wait list, is that right? Yes. Yeah, we do. We do. We can't bring them in all at once because when you've children who don't respond in Persian, then the, it affects the dynamic of the class. So we bring in a few at a time, one at a time per class. So you sorted out with eight kids in the playgroup, the person center, and now you guys have evolved to, [00:13:30] uh, how many kids? Speaker 2:We've over 55 55 kids and you no longer in the prison center now and we have a waiting list to 2014. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. School's good business. If you can figure out that it's actually, you know, people say that. And I do think with, uh, with a more traditional model it can be, but with our model, it's actually not, we operate at a deficit every month. Um, and the reason being [00:14:00] is that in order to ensure that the children are fully immersed in Persian and they're not all speaking English all the time, we have a really low teacher rated child to teacher ratio. So our staffing costs are much higher than any other school. What is the ratio? It's one to three for toddlers and one to four for preschoolers and for afterschool kids, which kind of, what's the standard ratios for preschoolers? Preschool is going [00:14:30] to be one to four to windows eight. And, um, oh, preschool one to four is actually very rare. Sorry, toddlers, it's one wonderful. Anyway, um, for preschoolers legally one to 12, but I think most people, it's about one to eight. For most schools when to 10, they'll have like a class of 20, sometimes with two teachers. Speaker 1:Wow. So the reason that you do that is, and the reason that you've, you're configured as a nonprofit, which is, that's unique in their preschool [00:15:00] world, right? Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. There are some there. It's not rare, but it is, it's not, it's not the most common. Speaker 1:And what's the reason that there's a, there's a, there's a vision behind it, right? Speaker 2:Yeah. The couple of reasons. One is that, um, I wanted all the decisions that were made for the organ, for the school to be based on what's best for the school and not to be, um, [00:15:30] influenced by, by profit. Uh, the other, um, is that I wanted the school to become, um, lasting organization that if I were to leave, that it would come, it would still be here. And, um, and also I'm just not a business person, wasn't my thing. But, uh, and, and also, um, practically speaking, knowing that we were going to have a deficit, we'd need to fundraise and it would be very difficult to do that as a for profit [00:16:00] organization. We thought we figured that out after we made the decision to be a nonprofit. Speaker 1:And you were planning the deputy because you wanted the load ratios to be able to get the kids to speak for us. Yeah. Yeah. You're listening to k a l x Berkeley 90.7 FM streaming on the worldwide web a k alx.berkeley.edu. This is method to the madness I show from the Public Affairs Department of Calyx that explores the innovative spirit of the bay area. I'm your host Ali Nasar and that was an old [00:16:30] Iranian folk song by the name of you who are like the long moon in the sky. And I played that because today we're talking to Yeldon Metabo, the executive director of Gulistan kids, the first Farsi immersion program for preschoolers in America located in west Berkeley. Back to our conversation. And uh, I wanted to ask you about, um, some success stories. So you see all sorts of kids coming in with varying levels of [00:17:00] exposure to Farsi. Right. Can you share maybe a story or two of, of kids who have come in and really, cause you know, everybody always says, oh, kids are sponges at that age. You tried it, you see that? Speaker 2:Oh yeah. Yeah, they are. Yeah. Um, boy, I wouldn't know which one the [inaudible] there's one in particular that stands out. Um, is actually a college friend of mine has, uh, three kids. [00:17:30] Yeah. Three kids and lives in Pleasanton, Pleasanton and has two older girls. I think they are about seven or seven and nine, something like that at the time. And a little boy who, Amir, who is, who was five at the time. And uh, he's to a Tunisian woman, adorable, wonderful woman who, who's learned to speak prison and their kids didn't speak Persian. Um, I think the older girls understood a little bit, [00:18:00] but then really not a lot. And uh, at one point my friend was like, this is, this is like our only chance we gotta get these kids to learn Persian. And so I told them, well, bring Amir here. It was his last year of preschool and I'm your did not understand a word. Speaker 2:I'm like, you would just need to say hello. How are you to him? Any kind of like, yeah, I have this look on his face. I'm such a sweet boy too. So he, he uh, he decided, okay, we're going to do, I was like, if you [00:18:30] do it, he has to come here a lot to get full exposure. So they made the commitment and they drove to Berkeley from Pleasanton every day and he worked in the South Bay. So it was a, it was insane for them, was hard. And they had two older girls that were in school in pleasant and we'd get out of school, right, like half an hour before I'm here, we'd get out of school. There's a lot of driving involved. Um, within a month I'm your understood everything. And then within, by the time the second month ended, he [00:19:00] was fluent and he was with us his whole last year of preschool. And by the time he left, he was just this totally fluent kid. And one day Allie came to my office and um, he just, he came in and he just just choked up and teared up and he's like, it's changed our relationship. I was like, I told you, but it did. It was just changed the dynamic of their relationship because they connected in a different way. It was really special. Speaker 1:Yeah. That's what's so special about what you're doing is that, um, [00:19:30] you know, people who speak multiple languages understand that there's concepts that can be talked about, ideas that can be talked about in another tongue that you can't really talk about it in English. This is different level of connection. It's not just cause English is lacking. It's every language has its own words. It's culture. That's true. I never thought of it that way. Um, and so I think one thing that's I wanted to talk about with you is that you have a program as part of goalless on kids or it's separate and um, [00:20:00] organization, the Colab, Speaker 2:it's part of the same organization, but it's like a, it's a department, I guess you would. Speaker 1:Yeah. So a part of your organization that is dedicated to helping other communities and not just Persian, Farsi, speaking communities, anybody, anyone embraced this idea of, of creating immersion programs, preschool immersion programs. So talk to us a little bit about the, the Colab, Speaker 2:the colab. We used to call it the resource center and people [00:20:30] weren't apparently the resource center and just do and doing it for anybody. So we did a little bit of brainstorming and came up with the name, the heritage language collaborative and it's exactly what that is. It's, it's collaborating with people, be they families or other or communities who want to promote their heritage language in the next generation of kids. Um, so we work with families with any background. I just worked with an Taiwanese [00:21:00] family and helping them maintain the bilingual home in different, you know, that we all have different challenges in doing that and helping them overcome those challenges. And then working with educators of different immersion programs. Um, our hope is to host workshops for starting off with local immersion schools, but then eventually national schools and developing best practices, cause they don't really exist in that field. Speaker 2:[00:21:30] Excuse me. And it is an emerging field. And then finally working with other communities. Um, and that involves both helping other communities, start schools, be they small co-op programs all the way to like a real school, um, and also producing teaching materials and books and audio books and some music cds. And, um, so right now we're in the beginning phases. I've been doing this [00:22:00] work for the last three years that we've been in our new building and we became a nonprofit. Um, but it's been hard to do that and run the school and the afterschool program, um, and tried to keep a nonprofit afloat in this economy and have two kids. Speaker 1:Yeah. Yo, by the way, you have two kids. I do that too. Yeah. Um, so okay. My native tongue is Ooredoo. Okay. So let's say I came to you and I said I want to start or do language school. You refer to best [00:22:30] practices. What are like top three best practices for listeners out there? We hopefully have dozens and dozens of languages listening to us right now. So what are the best practices that you can give people? Just, just, you know, a few choice nuggets. Speaker 2:Well, as a parent I can, would you like to know as a parent? Sure. As a parent it would be to um, work, be consistent and um, enable your children to develop the muscles and the habits to [00:23:00] speak to you in your native tongue. Um, damn, one technique uses like a sang, it's called the sandwich method. If you have to use English, then you use your native tongue first than English than the native tongue. So if you, you're speaking about a ball and the child doesn't know what a ball means, you would say TUPE in person, ball, TUPE. And um, another one is to really prompt a child to respond to [00:23:30] you in that language. Um, if they insist on speaking English and they always, every child will get to a point where they'll want to speak English to their parent. Don't. My second child hasn't gotten to that yet. It's interesting. Um, you, you just have them keep repeating it and in my case in person and prompting them to repeat it and you just keep doing it over and over again until they do it sounds painful and terrible. And it sounds like you have a terrible relationship with your kids, but it's just, it's just [00:24:00] a little bit of effort. Like everything else in parenting that eventually becomes very natural and it's actually less work than if you were to be a little bit looser about it in the beginning. Less disciplined about it. Speaker 1:Okay. Good tips. Thank you. Um, so last question I have for you is, I love to ask this of innovators, entrepreneurs, what's the vision? So you're working real hard. It's been three years and you've come a long way. You 55 kids that you're, [00:24:30] you're giving this amazing experience too. So five years from now, what will it look like? And both from the Goldstone perspective but also from colab. Speaker 2:Well, in five years we will have helped build, why are we say 10 years, 10 schools? So not sure it's five years in five schools cause it's, yeah, 10 years is easier for the colab. Um, so yeah, we'd have schools [00:25:00] all over the country, not us personally, but there would be schools that we will have helped establish however we can through consulting and sending them materials. Thanks. Um, and we'd have books published, several books published and audio cds and music cds, and we'll have an annual workshop where we host people coming in from different parts of the country [00:25:30] and brainstorming together and the school, oh, I shouldn't even say this school. There are some, there been discussions and requests from parents and other educators talking to me about, um, starting a charter school k through eight. And I've been, you know, I, this, it was, it was a big, big challenge to get to where we are now. Speaker 2:My family paid a price for it and my [00:26:00] husband was very patient with me. Um, so it's, it's hard to say yes, but it's really hard to say no to. So we're, we're exploring that and my hope is that in 10 years we'll have a team that can do that. And I can help and we'd work, we'd collaborate and it could be a Gulistan school locally. Um, I'm not into having call stands outside of the local area, um, because it's hard to manage all of that. But yeah, maybe there'd be a k through eight school in Berkeley. Speaker 1:[00:26:30] I'd like to thank Yelderman Debra for being on the show today. To learn more about Gulistan, you'd go to Gulistan kids.com. That's g o l e s t a n kids.com. This has been method to the madness on care Berkeley 90.7 FM. You can learn more about us@methodtothemadness.org and to take us out today, we're going to let a kid from Goulston give us a little Persian nursery rhyme, said to Beethoven, oh, humans in life, be kind to each other here on [00:27:00] Kale x, Berkeley. Speaker 3:Bye. See you. Bye. [inaudible] mine. And I need that. [00:27:30] Bye guys. A need. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.