Podcasts about angela you

Dr. Angela Thyer and Judy Simon discuss their book 'Getting to Baby' and the importance of nutrition and lifestyle in fertility. They share their backgrounds and how they came together to help women improve their nutrition and health for better fertility outcomes. The book covers the connection between food and fertility, the importance of whole foods, debunking misconceptions about diet and fertility, and the benefits of intuitive eating and cooking. They emphasize the need for diversity in food choices and the impact of processed foods on fertility. The book also includes practical tips and recipes to support a healthy pregnancy journey. The conversation covers topics such as the importance of breakfast and meal timing, the impact of nutrition on fertility, the role of integrative medicine in fertility treatment, and the power of lifestyle choices in influencing fertility outcomes. The guests emphasize the importance of combining foods and the role of vegetables in supporting digestion and overall health. They also discuss the impact of stress, sleep, and epigenetics on fertility. The conversation highlights the need for a multidisciplinary approach to fertility treatment and the importance of finding a supportive healthcare team.   Takeaways Nutrition and lifestyle play a crucial role in fertility and improving fertility outcomes. Eating whole foods, including a variety of fruits, vegetables, plant-based proteins, and whole grains, is important for fertility. There are many misconceptions about diet and fertility, such as the need to cut out carbs or follow specific diets. It's important to focus on nourishing the body with whole foods. Intuitive eating and cooking skills are valuable in creating a healthy and sustainable approach to nutrition. Diversity in food choices is essential for optimal fertility and overall health. Processed foods can negatively impact fertility, and it's important to prioritize whole foods. The book provides practical tips, recipes, and a six-week blueprint to support a healthy pregnancy journey. Breakfast is an important meal for fertility and overall health. It is best to have a substantial breakfast with protein, fiber, and vegetables. Meal timing is crucial, and it is recommended to have more calories earlier in the day and fewer at night. Combining foods, especially vegetables, can support digestion and nutrient absorption. Stress, sleep, and lifestyle choices have a significant impact on fertility outcomes. Epigenetics plays a role in fertility, and lifestyle choices can influence gene expression. A multidisciplinary approach to fertility treatment, including integrative medicine, can provide comprehensive support. Finding a supportive healthcare team is essential for navigating the fertility journey.   Guest Bio: Judy Simon Judy Simon, MS, RDN, CD, CHES is an award winning registered dietitian nutritionist who specializes in reproductive health. She is the founder of Mind Body Nutrition, PLLC and a clinical instructor at the University of Washington. Judy's expertise includes fertility, PCOS, eating disorders, weight inclusive medicine and reproductive health.  Judy has held leadership roles in the American Society of Reproductive Medicine Nutrition Special Interest Group and is a Fellow of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics.  Judy integrates mindfulness, intuitive eating, eating competence, while taking a non-judgmental, inclusive down approach to help people have healthier, more fertile lives.  Judy is the co-founder of Food For Fertility program and co-author of the upcoming (April, 2024) book Getting to Baby A Food-first Fertility Plan to Improve Your Odds and Shorten Your Time to Pregnancy, Ben Bella Publisher   Guest Bio: Angela Thyer Angela Thyer, MD is board certified in Reproductive Endocrinology and Infertility, Ob/Gyn and Lifestyle Medicine. She is a founding partner of Seattle Reproductive Medicine. Dr. Thyer completed her undergraduate education at Duke University, medical school at the University of Cincinnati College of Medicine, residency at Oregon Health and Science University, and fellowship at the University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio. She completed The Culinary Coaching program through the Institute of Lifestyle Medicine in 2020 and became a certified plant-based chef through Rouxbe in 2022. She and Judy Simon, MS, RDN created the Food for Fertility program and have co-authored a book coming out in 2024, Getting to Baby: A Food-First Fertility Plan to Improve Your Odds and Shorten Your Time to Pregnancy which highlights the best foods to optimize fertility.   Website & Social media links (Facebook, instagram, twitter)   Instagram: @angelathyermd Website: angelathyermd.com     For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   Click here to find out how to get the first chapter of "The Way of Fertility" for free.   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/         Transcript:   Michelle: So Angela and Judy, welcome. Angela: Thank you so much. We're excited to be here, Michelle. Michelle: So I'd love for you guys to give a background first. , I'm very excited to be talking about your new book, Getting to Baby. I would love for you first to share your background so people can know more about you and what got you to doing this type of work. Angela: Okay. Sure. I'm a reproductive endocrinologist and infertility specialist. So first I trained in OBGYN and then specialized in reproductive endocrine and infertility. And then I got board certified in lifestyle medicine. So, which is a more holistic kind of way to look at all healthcare, more of a preventive lens of like, how can we look at lifestyle measures to, you know, really help people in all phases of their life. Angela: And I've always been interested in food, nutrition, exercise. And so over the years, it just became a bigger and[00:01:00] bigger part of my practice. And I've always been interested in obviously hormones, but metabolism and Judy and I started working together at the university of Washington. And we found we had this common interest in really helping women, you know, work together to improve their nutrition and health, which subsequently leads to improvement in their fertility. Michelle: Oh, totally. Judy: And I'm a registered dietitian, as Angela mentioned, and my master's is in community health education. And I sort of went through traditional training, and when I came back and re entered, you know, medicine, gosh, about 20 ish years ago, all of a sudden, PCOS and all these things that I had never really learned about just came front and forward. Judy: And so I was fortunate to connect up with Angela and really do the deep dive into, Hey, what do we know about insulin resistance? How is this affecting fertility? And these were things that traditionally I hadn't been taught. [00:02:00]So really, I think we kind of joined each other's worlds. You know, I joined American Society of Reproductive Medicine and, you know, joined all the fertility docs. Judy: And You know, Angela would come to the nutrition conferences. So we did a lot of cross pollination and from that we went off and both started into private practices and she'd refer these amazing patients and we decided, wow, we're seeing them one at a time. Wouldn't it just be the coolest thing if we could start classes? Judy: So about 12 ish years ago, we started the food for fertility classes where we brought women in who were trying to conceive. Many of them had PCOS, endometriosis. unexplained, lots of different diagnosis. And that's who we brought the food and the people and the lifestyle into the classroom, which is really why we wrote the book. Judy: It's kind of, we took all our years of experience, science and knowledge and said, let's make it accessible to more people. Michelle: That's awesome. And so [00:03:00] talk about the book. What's in the book? And obviously it's for people trying to conceive, getting to baby. What were the top things?  Angela: Yeah. Well, we, we started off by, you know, kind of, we always want people to understand the whys, you know, why this, why that what's the connection, what's the underlying biology and physiology? And then what evidence do we know? A lot of nutritional studies about fertility or observational studies, like they'll a population will be observed and they'll say, okay, people who ate these kinds of diets or these kinds of foods had higher fertility and more successful outcomes than people who ate this kind of diet. Angela: So, you know, we, we want to, wanted to present all that information. So people kind of have background and good knowledge and can kind of say, oh, okay, well. Maybe that would be a good idea for me. You know, it's not, it's, it's a broad spectrum of what, you know, a good diet could look like. It's not just one thing. Angela: Obviously [00:04:00] mainly plant forward. Cause I think we all need to eat more fruits and vegetables and plant based foods. But there is room, you know, for some animal foods too, especially things like fish and whole fat dairy, which have shown to increase some fertility benefits. So, you know, we kind of go through all the food groups and talk about what's, what we, where we have evidence, what's good, what's not so good and what vitamins and minerals and nutrients they're adding. Angela: And then, you know, some of the biggest things that we're like, if you want to incorporate this, it's a really, it's a how to. Right. So we wanted to make it like accessible in this sense that anybody at home could be like, Oh, okay. I, gosh, I just want to add one little thing this week. What would I add? What can, what's my takeaway? Angela: What's my smart goal? So people can kind of set their own goals and try to move forward with that, making a little progress at a time. And then the greatest thing I think is sharing stories from our patients who are just fabulous[00:05:00] women who've been on their own journey. And we had so many stories, we couldn't even share them all in the book. Angela: But kind of telling these journeys that sometimes took months, sometimes took years and how they were able to incorporate changes and see changes in themselves. and feel increased energy and then kind of have improved fertility. Maybe if they had a partner, you know, their partner's health was also improving at the same time. Angela: And so many of them were successful either With natural conception, or if they were infertility treatments, having better success in those treatments and making better quality embryos that we were like, wow, you know, that's really what's in the book. So as much as we could share and keep it accessible and reasonable in length. Angela: That's, that's what the book's about. Michelle: I found it very user friendly and I really enjoyed the image of the plate and how half of it was greens, which is great because I do believe that it's so important to get the greens. And there's so many nutrients that you can get[00:06:00] from that. And you talked about some misconceptions too, like on treating PCOS and like common misconceptions on what to eat for fertility. Michelle: So I'd love to touch upon that. Judy: Yeah, well, one of the things that we tried to bring out in the book is when we first started doing our classes, a lot of the reasons women would be referred to us as we'll just go lose weight. So nothing, you know, focusing on their health and we're like, Oh no, no, no, this is not a weight loss class. Judy: This is totally about how to nourish yourself. And actually. Take away the shame and guilt in, you know, whatever size body you have being able to get the benefits of the nutrition and the lifestyle. Right? So, for example there's a lot of people that would come in with a whole list of foods that they thought they shouldn't eat because somebody told them that. Judy: And we're like, well, are you allergic to them? No. Well, okay, you know, here's a safe And that's what we tried to do in the [00:07:00] book. Like showing in all these different, you know, sure, maybe you can't tolerate dairy. Here's a sub, here's something else you can, you can place out so that everybody would feel included, that anybody could be in the classes, read the book and really get the benefit out of it. Judy: So when, when you talk about myths, probably the biggest one is, you know so many women are told cut out carbs. Cut out carbs and we're like, Oh no. Well, what's in whole grains and ancient grains. We know those inositols we hear about in PCOS. Guess where they come from? White beans, buckwheat. So we're saying where can you get these ancient grains are just so filled with minerals and also really showing that looking at the quality of carbs that you're choosing most of the time is actually going to be beneficial. Judy: And this is kind of relief for women to hear like, I don't have to starve myself. I get to eat and try new things. Michelle: Yeah. That's such a good point. And also, cause a [00:08:00] lot of times when people have carbs, it's simple carbs or juices where you're taking basically, even if it's fresh juices, like we're really meant to have the whole fruit, right? The fiber like, and digest it slowly so that it's not a sugar spike. I'd love for you to talk about that too, the importance of, of actually having the whole food. Angela: Yeah, we definitely talk about kind of it being a whole food diet because that is so important and The issue with I mean, yes, you can get some of the nutrients if you juice But you're also gonna get mainly sugar without the fiber if you've removed the fiber. So the fiber is so important both to slow down your digestion and really pay attention to gut health. Angela: And I know you focus a lot on gut health. You know, that's where so much of our health overall starts. And there's so many connections between the gut and the mind and the body and the hormones and everything else, every, every system. And so, having that [00:09:00] fiber in your diet, really from whole foods. I mean, especially plant based foods, right? Angela: Because animal foods don't have fiber, but the plant based foods really then is is great food for the microbiomes, the microbiome, our microbiome and the bacteria, the 3 trillion bacteria that live in our gut. And it helps create, you know, it's more anti inflammatory because so many people kind of can get. Angela: almost a chronic inflammation from not eating enough fiber, not feeding their microbiome. And then that can lead to more issues in more body systems that they may not even be aware of. But nobody is, you know, advertising whole foods, like whole foods. So much of what people see and kind of the noise that feeds in is just, you know, everything else that's marketed in a box or a bag or somebody. Angela: And so that's what, and so sometimes those help people put health claims on other products that [00:10:00] aren't whole foods and then whole foods kind of get neglected. And so, yeah, we definitely want to say, you know, it's important. And we talk about eating the rainbow and the colors because each colors, providing different phytonutrients. Angela: And so, you know, you want that broad range because the more diversity you have in your fruits and vegetables, the more diverse a microbiome you're going to develop, the better protection for your immune system and just make everything else work better in your whole body. Michelle: I love that you talk about diversity because actually a lot of people end up developing sensitivities even if it's healthy food that they eat all the time and it's important to have diversity because it really allows the body to get so many different benefits and also not get too intolerant of one specific thing. Michelle: The body likes diversity. Judy: Absolutely. And we really wanted people to feel inclusive with the book. So that's why there's so much [00:11:00]culinary medicine, like just basic skills. Here's how you can throw something together without even a recipe, you know, just really, you know, five steps to a great salad. What should it have, you know, different things like that. Judy: And we also wanted it to really highlight the, All the global cuisines. And so for example I see a large population of South Asian women, right? And so there's, there, there always were like their diets too high in carbs. And we talked about what are all the wonderful things that herbs that you're using, the dolls, you know, the pulses, but we tried to make sure we had things from all regions because unfortunately a lot of people here in the medical world, like, Oh, just eat the Mediterranean diet. Judy: We're like, Oh no, no, no way. That that's so exclusive. It's not inclusive. We want to talk about, you know, foods from, you know, West Africa or Central America, a lot of the indigenous healthy foods, and then also what's seasonally available. And so one of the things that we really tried to [00:12:00]share is a lot of different types of foods. Judy: Simple preparation, but let people start where they're comfortable. So if you're a chef that only has three or four recipes and you're still sort of using some are processed foods, maybe they'll start with adding a soup or adding some vegetable dishes or adding a salad and letting them know you're going to get benefits from those first steps. Judy: Because some people feel like, like I just talked to someone, she goes, I'm trying to be all in, you know, trying to be perfect. Do you know what I mean? Michelle: Yeah, Judy: And that's stressful. It's stressful to feel like you're getting a grade on your diet. And we want people to feel like it's fun. They're having a date night with their partner and maybe they're trying a new recipe in the book. Judy: Or they got inspired because there is a lot of pressure when people are trying to conceive. And the book is also for those people who are like, Hey, we want to get pregnant in the next year. What's the path to a healthy pregnancy? We have no idea how long it's going to take, but [00:13:00] what's going to prepare us? Judy: And you know, Michelle, that like 50 percent of pregnancies are unplanned. So a lot of people, you know, maybe they're exposed to a lot of those fertility disruptors, and if they would have known even a few months in advance, they could have decreased some of the risks, you know that could impact their fertility and pregnancy. Michelle: definitely. I remember seeing something, it was about a burger or like a chicken sandwich or something. It was a sandwich with a bun that the woman just kept in her closet and just saw what happened and it was not, it was not good. Breaking down and I'm like, whoa That is crazy. Like things are supposed to break down if they don't break down and they don't yeah Just break down like what happens in your body So talk about the importance of eating whole foods. Michelle: Listen, we're going to have processed food once in a while. It's not like, you know, end all be all like, it's not one thing or another, obviously, [00:14:00] but talk about the importance of really being intentional about choosing more whole foods in your diet.  Angela: Well, you know, I do think, I think that everybody's so different in what they eat, but I think that, yeah, the ultra processed foods and processed grains, so like breads, cereals, pastas, Anything it's just so it it's everywhere, right? It's it's you can't get away from it and it's become normalized And it and so it has become acceptable and ordinary And the problem with those foods is yeah, you don't need to say i'm not never going to eat that again But it replaces it, you know, it takes the place of whole foods. Angela: And so I think you know Where do you get whole foods? Well, it's hard to get whole foods You You know if you're eating If you're buying foods at convenience stores or fast food restaurants or even regular restaurants Sometimes i'm surprised that menus don't have Kind of like more vegetables available when we talk about the fertility plate[00:15:00] and the whole plate being half Vegetables, right? Angela: You're not going to get that in a restaurant, like the restaurant usually. So, you know, we, we have talked to women, we didn't really talk about this that much in the book, but like, I think some of the women gave us examples of, you know, planning when you go to a restaurant, gosh, what can I eat from this menu that would be more of a whole food, what are the, sometimes the side vegetables are something they'll order from some of those things to say like, yeah, I don't need to necessarily go for the most. Indulgent luxurious meal. I want to go for the whole foods cause I know that's what my body needs. So we talk about being intuitive eater or competent eater. It, you know, I don't think this is taught well in schools. So, you know, to, to be honest, nobody, it's nobody's fault. Like where you are, it's a growth opportunity for everybody to be like, Hey, I didn't really get this education growing up. Angela: My parents worked. I didn't, you know, I didn't cook that much growing up, but now I'm an adult. And I need to really learn about [00:16:00] nutrition and what my body needs and how to heal myself through food. And what that might mean is I need to cook more. And if I don't know how to cook more with whole foods, You know, there's opportunities to learn. Angela: There's so much now available on YouTube, or that's both good and not so good, but you know, you can find the good, the good things and learn to cook with whole foods and buy things like our book, which are trying to teach people almost some intuitive cooking skills. Cause you don't always want to be cooking from a recipe. Angela: You want to get some basic staples and some comfort in the kitchen and some things you really are good at, and then always build new and add new. Okay. But yeah, so that was like one of the tenants of our philosophy of how we taught was, let's talk about, you know, building a meal. Let's talk about what vegetables are going to be in the meal, what protein is going to be in the meal. Angela: And for us, that was mainly going to be a [00:17:00] plant based protein. So either beans, lentils. tofu or tempeh or edamame, so a soy based protein, or fish, since all of those have been shown to increase fertility. And then whole grains, those ancient grains, so not processed and kind of putting that all together and nuts and seeds and other things that provide those denser nutrients. Angela: And really starting with like cutting things up, like, okay, let's prep everything. Let's do the mise en place. Let's get everything ready. Let's plan meals. So you're going to have leftovers. because it takes work and effort. You don't want to put all that effort in and then only eat once. So you want to have some leftover meals that you can repurpose throughout the week or free some of these meals that you're going to be able to then thaw out next week or next month when you're more time pressed, and you know, you've got your own freezer meal that you've prepared that you're going to be able to thaw out and cook and have a nutritious, delicious, quick meal, right? Angela: So it's just a, I think it's a mindset, right? [00:18:00] It's a different way to think. And, and everybody can get there and just build that knowledge and build those skills. And that's exciting. Michelle: It is exciting. I find that whenever you're learning something new, like you, you make it more complicated in your mind. You're like, oh, I have to do this whole thing. But you don't realize, like as you learn it, you could really strategize and make it so much easier and cheaper. You could save money that way. Judy: Absolutely. Michelle, you bring up a really good point. And what's really fun is a lot of the women who've taken classes or patients of ours, like even after like two years after they have their baby, I'll get an email. You know, I saved all those recipes from class and I still love the, you know, the quinoa mango black bean salad. Judy: It's so delicious in the summer. I take it to parties or one patient just wrote me about the soca bread made out of chickpeas that they start to add them to their repertoire or you want to increase their self efficacy, their confidence and their competency. And then when they do eat out, you know, maybe [00:19:00] they do broaden and they, you know, they go for an Indian meal or an Asian meal and they know like, Hey, I'm going to order one whole vegetarian. Judy: So I get more broccoli and veggies like they know how to order and feel good. When they go out or they travel, you know, how can I take that and keep it better? And, you know, just really, you know, giving them that support. And so in the book, for some people, this is really new. We kind of do like a six week blueprint, but we also say like, If you feel pretty good on some of the skills and you've checked the box, awesome. Judy: Work on some of those things that you, you want to build up stronger in your repertoire. And if you feel like you need more time, I remember when our class switched to virtual and we started to go to every other week, the women were like, this is kind of good because I have more time to work on my goals. Judy: I kind of like that other, remember the every other week model? You could do that with a six week plan. Maybe I'm going to try to do this over twelve weeks, you know, three months, give myself some time to To try new things.[00:20:00] And the thing is you're getting the benefit with every step you take. There's a benefit, you know? Judy: And so the cool thing for us is sometimes at the end of the class, women who didn't eat in the morning, they like. You know, we started eating in the morning because of class and the food was really good. They started regulating their cycles, Michelle. It was amazing. And one of our last live classes before COVID, I remember one table of four, they were all kind of waiting to get their cycles and things and getting ready for IVF. Judy: And they all went on to conceive. They all got their cycles and went on to conceive. And that was just, the cost of food and, you know, putting a little bit of time in so that lifestyle does make a difference whether someone's going for art treatment or they're, you know, they're, you know, they're just maximizing their fertility options. Michelle: Yeah, there was actually a study on girls in college that skipped breakfast and how it impacted their cycles I thought that was interesting[00:21:00] Judy: I would guess negatively. I'm thinking if Michelle: Negatively, yes negatively. Yeah. Yeah, Judy: You know, I just want to check. Michelle: They most of them started regular and it they became irregular. Judy: You know, and people are getting into a lot of fads where they're really time boxing their food. I just talked to someone in a smaller body and she says, I'm trying to eat clean. So I only eat between this time and this time. I go, Michelle: Mm hmm Judy: you should eat when you're hungry. Your body needs nourishment all day, not just eight hours. Judy: So sometimes we see people that are going to overboard. And they're restricting, and then their reproductive axis is not getting the nutrients it needs. And I'm like, that's not what you want to do for ag health. That's not what you want to do for reproductive health. If you feel cold at night and you're, and, and you know, and as we know with, you know, acupuncture and Chinese medicine, energy is such an important concept. Judy: So if you're freezing all of a sudden, and you're starving [00:22:00] yourself, you're not nourishing your body. Michelle: Absolutely. And actually in Ayurvedic medicine, they say that when the sun is out, that is when, because we, you know, we, we respond to the elements. And when the sun is out, especially like around 12 PM, you should have your largest meal because it increases your own digestive fire because we get influenced by nature. Michelle: And actually the morning you should have breakfast, you should have food during the day when the digestive fire is. Increase the most and when you shouldn't is as it gets darker like a couple hours before you go to sleep That's when you can give your body a break. So it kind of According to Ayurveda, it's a little bit more flipped than what's typically done where people skip breakfast. Angela: Right. And, and, you know, that, that exactly parallels some of the metabolic studies, right? So what Ayurvedic medicine is known for so long, right? And then Western medicine has to come and prove it that like our digestion is[00:23:00] better in the morning and the way glucose and, and. nutrients are processed in the morning is better when we have more energy and we're more active throughout the day. Angela: And then at night, things are winding down and slowing down and you want your body to relax for sleep and not be digesting a big meal. And, and we do talk about that, but it is really hard for people to flip to try and get more calories and earlier in the day when fewer at night when the typical pattern is, is the opposite. Michelle: and it's going to give them a lot more productivity and energy to have a good breakfast because you know, protein, you got those good fiber and vegetables and berries and, really start your day right. Judy: We encourage people if they're really set in a way, we're like, we'll do it as an experiment. Be curious. Try it on the weekend. Maybe try it on the weekend because you don't want to change your flow. See how your energy feels, especially when people are telling us they're fatigued. Judy: They're like, I'm so tired. And it's [00:24:00] like, and most of their energy intake is at night. They wake up not hungry. You know, we do try, you know, try to flip that around and that's part of that intuitive eating and eating competence and see where your body, because really people know a lot about their body and so we want them to be in tune to that too and trust that. Angela: And I was just going to add that, you know, sometimes people have these ideas of what a typical breakfast, lunch, and dinner is and what food should be part of those meals. And we say, Hey, that does not have to be the case either. I love a breakfast salad. I love eating my leftover dinner from the night before for breakfast. Angela: If I've made something delicious, I made this great stir fry and I've had a little bit because it's late, but I'm like, I want to have that for breakfast. I'm going to have a big bowl, you know, so I love having those other things early in the day because I do feel like it gives me great energy. And then the other thing that we talk about is, you know, the[00:25:00] walking after meals and especially getting outside early in the morning and getting that sunlight to really Start your day and, and get your clock going and how important those rhythms can be to recognize that you have, your body has a rhythm, sleep consistency is important, exercise and movement throughout the day is important, all these other things that we want to build in, you know, to our base for overall wellness to support fertility. Michelle: Yeah. I love it. I love it that you're a doctor and you're interested in this because unfortunately it's not as common. Like people don't know about all of these things about really connecting with nature and the nutrition aspect of it. So it's amazing. It's so well rounded because you have like so many different backgrounds and perspectives on Judy: We, we, we, yeah, we try to bring it all together and that's why this book would have been much longer if our publisher didn't say stop, you know, it was like twice as long. You'll see when you're writing your book, you want to share everything. And so we did include [00:26:00] two chapters on like boosters and disruptors, you know, talking about stress and sleep. Judy: And then also some of the disruptors like, you know, alcohol, cannabis, endocrine disruptors, because we didn't want to scare people, but we felt they needed to know. And you know, science based, evidence based, but we did put it at the end. You know, we really focus on the food and feeding yourself because really that's what our program is all about. Judy: But we find that when they put it all together and they get to those boosters and they add the movement and the stress and so many of our patients, patients who do acupuncture will say, well, that's one of the ways I always say, what do you get out of it? Cause I always want to know. And they go, Oh man, I'm such a good place to do. Judy: I leave in my stress level is so much better. I go, then that's something you want to include in, in, in what you're doing for your health. If you have the privilege and you have the accessibility to it. So we, we try to make everything accessible. Because there's so [00:27:00] many women and men who don't have access to medical care when it comes to fertility. Judy: It's really the underprivileged do not have access or such limited access that we thought if we could at least cover the main things and it could be, you know, available in libraries or, you know, things like that and audio books that that would be a way that more people could really have that information. Michelle: Well, it's great information. And also, I love that it talks about. combining foods, in Chinese medicine, we have a lot of formulas of herbs. So each herbal formula has different herbs and they work together as a symphony. And a lot of times they'll include ginger or digestive herbs to help assimilate. Michelle: So working together, And a certain symphony is what makes it that much more beneficial for the body. And I like how you talk about the importance of combining foods. You were talking about putting [00:28:00] vegetables because if you just eat meat without vegetables, it's not going to be able to simulate as well and digest as well without those vegetables helping in that fiber. Angela: Right. The vegetables are actually pretty protective, right? So I mean, there, you know, there have been studies that look at people who eat just more of an all meat diet and then people who eat more of a vegetable based diet, but with meat and the gut is healthier, right? If you incorporate those vegetables the, the, because the fiber from the vegetables is so protective. Angela: That then you are able to digest the, the meat and make use of the nutrients in the meat as well. So I think that's, that's great advice. And I think that, you know, out here we're in Seattle. And so we have a lot of, you know, we have a number of people who are trained in acupuncture. They are, you know, trained in traditional Chinese medicine. Angela: And we have always basically said, you know, gosh, I don't know that area, [00:29:00] but I trust. The practitioners in my area who knows so much this has been around for so long that let's, you know, combine and talk about the best of all worlds and support everybody's health. And then the same with fertility clinics, like some people really are going to need that extra step of a traditional IVF clinic. Angela: They might need insemination. They might need IVF. And then all these other things are going to be supportive and enhance their success because it's so expensive. And the last thing you want to have to do is multiple cycles. And so the more efficient you can make each cycle by bringing your best self forward into the process and taking the time, like a lot of people, you know, want to kind of take a lot of time to get to a fertility clinic. Angela: And then once they get there, they want IVF yesterday. Like they want to be pregnant yesterday. So And it's still really about the time and the investment in, [00:30:00] you know, producing optimum health for you and your partner. And so that, you know, it might take a good three months, right? Of preparation to say, let's make sure when you do IVF, if you need IVF and you're going to do it, that everything's perfect. Angela: As great as you can make it going into the cycle instead of just like, Oh, there's an opening next week. Let's get started. You know Michelle: I wish all reproductive endocrinologists spoke like you Angela: Oh, yeah. Thank Judy: she, and she, and she walks the walk, you know, for all the patients we've had together. A lot of times after that initial consult, she'd be like, okay, I want you to do, you know, food for fertility and work on nutrition and lifestyle for three months. You know, let's see, you know, what we can do with some of these biomarkers that are, that are elevated in a very positive way. Judy: And then quite often during that three months, a woman starts cycling. I always, I remember saying to Angela once years ago, I go, What if you put the [00:31:00] fertility clinics out of business? I mean, we were kidding, you know, when I said that they have the role. So please don't think I'm saying that, but you know, we did. Judy: And she's like, great. She was like, wonderful. Let's help people on the easiest journey. Let's not, you know, when someone gets sent to me and they've already had three failed IVFs. for whatever reason. And they're like, okay, I want to work on my nutrition. I'm so happy to work with them, but I feel really bad because they're pretty wounded because they've been pretty disappointed and let down. Judy: And sometimes it was something obvious that nobody ever brought up, you know, their eating disorder, their PCOS, that things could have been optimized first. So I think that's where we all work together. So I feel like that's why when you work in integrative planning, You know, practices. We, we work with, you know, fertility yoga instructors that we really trust and, and, and, and D's and dietitians and, and, you know, we know which clinics are going to be weight shaming, you know, we want to know [00:32:00] where can our patients put the best team together, where can they get support groups from resolve or other organizations so that they feel as fully supported as they go on this journey, because a lot of people, Never expected this. Judy: They just, I went through unexplained infertility for years. Never thought that was in the bags for me, but it was like. You know, you feel helpless. So having a community, and I think when we all work together interdisciplinary, you know, and we know the best people to send our patients to, or best organizations, or how to check, we really help them. Judy: We really, we really can help. So we're excited about you, you know, your future book. Yes. I mean, you know, I was just coming first, but yeah, looking for resources is so important, Michelle. Angela: And I, right. And I think, you know, those resources are great. And then also if somebody is seeing somebody and it's not clicking. You know, it could be it could be their doctor. It could be their [00:33:00] dietitian. It could be whatever They you don't have to stay with the same person. You can actually go get another opinion you might You know, click better and work better with someone else who Has different information even it's not all the same. Angela: So each of us don't necessarily provide the same information or You know, it's an art and a science and I think we all feel that that we connect with people It's so important, but we all connect differently And and as an individual each person should really You Make the most of that and, and really make that work for them. Angela: They're the ones they're invested in it. Michelle: That is so true. Absolutely true. I've seen people who have been going for years to one reproductive endocrinologist and then when they changed different approach, different energy, just like, and it was a different outcome, Angela: Yep. Michelle: you know, it happens.  Judy: And if you make a change, [00:34:00] no one's mad at you. We all want the same end result. I always tell them all the clinics in this town, they're all friends. They all know each other, you know, professionally, they all know each other. They're going to send your charts. Judy: They're not going to hold them back. You know, everybody does want a positive outcome, you know, to take place. Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. That's great. I mean you know, not always the case, , but when it is, it's amazing, and it's true you really do have to find that alignment and I always say, you know, it takes a village and creating a team of different people that can support you in different ways. Michelle: When going through this, but of course nutrition is so important in Chinese Judy: We all eat. Michelle: Yeah, we all eat and we eat for a reason a good reason, right? Angela: Mm hmm. Michelle: And the spleen and stomach are actually the center and they're like the mother in a sense, you know the nurturer Aspect of our bodies and that is really where everything else gets built they [00:35:00] talk about pre heaven chi pre heaven energy in the kidneys And of course the kidneys are really important But sustenance, the energy with which we can sustain and increase after our genetics is food, Angela: Right. And I think, you know, that's just kind of being understood. I mean, I think in science, Yeah. We now are recognizing, you know, there's genetics, and then there's epigenetics, which is how the genes are expressed and the epigenetics is how we influence which genes are expressed. And that has to do with our nutrition, our stress. Angela: Our sleep, our movement, our community, our mental disposition, our mental health, our optimism. All these things have a huge impact in our health by the epigenetics. And I think people sometimes think it's just genetics and things are. A predetermined and it's going to be one way and it's totally [00:36:00] not. You have so much influence as a, as an individual about what path your life can take and how your health is affected by these decisions you make every day. Michelle: which is so empowering, I think, to know that you actually can have a hand in your Angela: Mm hmm.  Judy: , I was just thinking we almost wanted to add a whole another chapter on epigenetics, but we had to pull it back. So we just kind of sprinkled it in, you know, the lifestyle things. But even when we work with people who are using donor eggs, their health will have an impact on these epigenetics. So that really empowering that mom, you are the full mom, you know, even with a donor egg, what you eat, your life, your health. Judy: Is going to have an impact on your baby. And I think that really helps people to know that Michelle: That is such a good point. It's really true because it's, it's all important. It's all parts of the [00:37:00] whole.  That's where you do have control right over your lifestyle. And these some of these decisions because you don't always have control over your fertility. I mean, certain aspects are just out of your control, and you do feel that helplessness. Angela: And so I think where you can feel good and feel empowered is, you know, these are the actions I can take. These are the steps I can take. I am making progress. I am growing as a person. I'm helping myself. I'm helping my community. Whatever the case may be, I try to recommend not kind of losing yourself in just trying to get pregnant. Angela: Really recognize your, yourself as a whole person and all the things you are providing to, to your community through purpose and service and love and, and everything you're doing is just, it's key to who you are and it brings you strength and peace. And that's just really [00:38:00] Great to know and you, those are decisions you can make. Angela: That's not something out of your control. Michelle: That's so important. And thank you for bringing that up and you guys, I could talk to you guys for hours cause you know what, you know what I love? Well, first of all, your knowledge, you guys are very knowledgeable about what you're talking about, but the passion , and the compassion. With which you are operating  Michelle: I think we both have one major thing in common is that we love this community and it's a beautiful community to serve. And so for people who want to find you or read your book, how can they find you? Judy: Well, the book is available at all major books, booksellers and many of the independent ones request it getting to baby book.com. It will be released April 9th. So I'm not sure when this is released, but April 9th will be released. It can be pre-ordered. You can follow me at Fertile Nutrition or on my website, mindbody nutrition.com [00:39:00] and Angela. Angela: And you can also request the book from your library. So libraries don't automatically stock books, but if individuals make a request to a library, the library can order the book. So that's something to know as well. And then I'm at AngelaThiremd. com or at AngelaThiremd on Instagram. Michelle: Awesome. It was such a pleasure meeting the two of you. You guys are so nice and so knowledgeable and just really lovely to talk to. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. Angela: Thank you, Michelle. Judy: Michelle. Thanks, Michelle. Angela: to you as well. 

Special Guest Host Ken Hensley   Mike - How do you reconcile no salvation outside the Church with Confession and Mortal sin? (00:58) Angela - You should have mentioned that Jesus instituted the Sacrament of Confession. (20:04) Nick - If you are not baptized in the Catholic faith, will you be able to go to heaven? (25:15)

In the first episode of Season 1, co-hosts Annie Liontas and Lito Velázquez speak with LitFriends Angela Flournoy & Justin Torres about their enduring friendship, writing in a precarious world, and chosen family. Links https://sites.libsyn.com/494238 www.annieliontas.com www.litovelazquez.com https://linktr.ee/litfriendspodcast https://www.instagram.com/litfriendspodcast/ https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61553436475678 https://justin-torres.com/ https://www.angelaflournoy.com/ https://www.asalisolomon.com/ Transcript Annie & Lito (00:01) Welcome to LitFriends! Hey LitFriends! Annie: Welcome to the show. Lito: Today we're speaking with the great writers and LitFriends, Justin Torres and Angela Flournoy. Annie: About chosen family, the dreaded second novel, and failure and success. Lito: So grab your bestie and— 
 Both: Get ready to get lit! Lito: That's so cute. Annie: It's cute. It's cute. We're cute! Lito: Cute, cute… So you had a question? Annie (00:29) I do. I have a question for you, Lito. Are you a cat or an ox? Lito: I mean, I would hope that the answer is so obvious that it almost bears not asking the question. I'm a cat. Annie: Okay, so Asali Solomon at The Claw asked us all, are you an ox or a cat? Lito: That's a great question. Annie: And as a writer... You know, the oxen are the people who work every day in the field, clock in, clock out, pay themselves a quarter an hour. I'm literally talking about me. The cats are people who are playful, exploratory, when the mood strikes them… Lito: Why are you looking at me when you say that? Annie Lito (01:26) So are you an ox or a cat? Lito: I'm a cat. I think anyone who's ever met me would say I'm a cat. Annie: How does that show up in your writing? Lito: Well, I mean, play is so important to me—she'll be on the  podcast in a couple of episodes, but when I first...was studying with Lucy, that was one of the first things that she spoke about in our class, and it kind of blew up my whole world. I had been writing for a long time already, but I hadn't thought of it as play, or there was some permission I needed or something. So the idea of play is really central to what I do and love. You wouldn't necessarily know that from the novel that I'm writing, which is sort of a dark book. Um, but it did start out with a lot of play and, I'm also, as you could probably just hear, my cat is coming into the room. Annie: Your cat is like, yes, Lito is us. RiffRaff is like, "Lito is cat." Lito: My cat Riff Raff, yes. Smarty pants. Um, he needed to join in on this conversation. Anyways, I'm a cat. I, I'm fickle when it comes to my work. Um. I don't want to work on my novel all the time, which is great because life has found so many ways to prevent it from happening. So in the new year, in 2024, it will be 7 years since I've started writing this book, and it's still, it's going to take a few more months at least. And what about you? Annie:  (03:09) I'm four oxen pulling a cart carrying all of my ancestors. I am very much the immigrant who says, get up, go do the work, come back, go do the work. And believe it or not, for me, there is a lot of joy in that. It's a... It allows, you know, it's Csikszentmihalyi's Flow, actually. So it doesn't feel like drudgery, usually. It does feel like joy. And I'm actually curious for all you LitFriends out there, if you're an ox or a cat. Lito: Yes, that's such a great idea. Please email us at litfriendspodcast@gmail.com, and tell us if you're a cat or an oxen or share on all your socials. Annie: Yeah, maybe we should poll them. That would be fun. Lito: That's a good idea. #LitFriendsPodcast. Annie: The reason I'm asking is because, of course, both Justin and Angela, who we speak with today in this episode, talk about what it's like to go for 10 years between books. "A banger a decade," is what Angela says. Lito: It's so funny. Annie: And you, you know, part of that, they have this very rich conversation about how, when you put everything into the first book, it takes a lot to get to the second book. But I think also there's a lot of play, right? And there's a lot of understanding that writing appears in different forms. And it might be the second novel, but it might be something else. Lito: For sure. I really like how they talk about— that the practice of writing is actually a practice of reading. And I think that any serious writer spends most of their time reading. And not just reading books, but texts of all kinds, in the world, at museums, as Justin points out, art, television, even the trashiest TV show has so much to offer. Annie: (05:12) And there's such a generosity to the way they think of themselves as artists, and also generosity in how they show up for one another as friends, and acknowledging when they fail one another as we as we see in this episode. And I remember my introduction to Justin when I was a grad student at Syracuse. I read We the Animals and fell in love with it, asked him to come do a reading at Syracuse, which was wonderful. And my wife who, at that time was my Bey-ancé, she was turning 30. We had no money. I couldn't buy her anything. Not in grad school. So I asked Justin if he would autograph his story, "Reverting to a Wild State," which is about a breakup in reverse, for Sara. Lito: Oh, I love that story. Annie: And he did, and he thought it was so beautiful, and I was like, "let me send it to you." He's like, "no, I've got it." He just shipped it to me. He didn't know me. We didn't know each other. Lito: He knew you because of books. He knew you because he loved literature. Annie: Yeah. And I remember that in it. I held on to it at a time when that act really mattered. Lito: One of the things I love about our interview with Justin and Angela is how much all of us talk about generosity, and how Justin and Angela display it in their conversation with each other and with us. And I'm just curious, how do you see that coming through also in Angela's work? Annie: (07:00) You know, I remember her talking about how the idea for the book began with this image of people moving around a house at night. This is The Turner House. And she says this image opens up a lot of questions. And one of the things that really stays with me about that book is how masterful she is at shifting perspective, particularly between siblings, which I find to be such a challenge for writers, right? Like your siblings are the people who are closest to you and sometimes also the farthest away. And she gets that so intimately on the page. And of course, in our conversation with Angela and Justin, one of the things they talk about is being family, essentially being siblings. And that's one of the most powerful echoes of the conversation. They talk about being a chosen family and having to choose again and again and again. And that spirit of consciousness and connection, I feel that very much in Angela's work, and of course in Justin's too. Lito: Oh Annie, I choose you again and again, I choose you. Annie: Oh, I choo-choo-choose you! Lito: So stupid. Annie: (08:05) After the break, we'll be back with Justin and Angela. Annie: (08:24) And we're back. Lito: I just wanted to mention, too, that we spoke with Angela and Justin in October during the writer's strike in Hollywood, and just before Justin's new book, Blackouts, was released. And just last week, as you're hearing this podcast. Annie: Just last week. Lito: Just last week! He won the National Book Award for a book that took him 10 years to write. Annie: Absolutely. Annie: Justin Torres is the author of Blackouts, a novel about queer histories that are hidden, erased and re-imagined. Blackouts won the 2023 National Book Award for fiction. His debut novel, We the Animals, has been translated into 15 languages and was adapted into a feature film. He was named National Book Foundation's Five Under 35. His work appears in the New Yorker, Harper's, Granta, Tin House, Best American Essays, and elsewhere. He lives in Los Angeles and teaches at UCLA. Lito: Angela Flournoy is the author of The Turner House, which was a finalist for the National Book Award, won the VCU-Cabel First Novel Prize, and was also a finalist for both the Center for Fiction First Novel Prize and an NAACP Image Award. Angela is a contributing writer at the New York Times Magazine, and her nonfiction has appeared in The Nation, the Los Angeles Times, The New Yorker, and elsewhere. Angela is a faculty member in the low residency MFA program at Warren Wilson College. Lito: (10:36) I'm so grateful that you guys found time to meet with us today, and I've thought about you two as friends since I think this is like the first time you've done something like what you did in 2017, the "Proper Missive"—do you remember that—you published in Spook? And it stuck with me. I was like a big, nerding out, and I bought it and I have it still. And I thought about that. And Justin, you know that you're very personal— there's a personal connection with me because I found your book on my way to my first master's program. No one had said anything about it to me where I was coming from, and it was really great. And Angela, I first found your book. I was so amazed and moved by the talk you don't remember at Syracuse. Angela: I don't remember the lunch. I remember being at Syracuse, and there being a talk, yes. Lito: You inscribed your book, "Here's to Language," which I think is hilarious and also really sweet. And I think we must have said something about language at some point. But anyways, thank you so much both for being here. Justin: Thank you for having us. Angela: Very happy to be here. Lito: So let's start. Why don't you tell us about your friend in a few sentences? So Angela, you can go first. Tell us about Justin. Angela: (11:23) Justin is the first person that I met in Iowa City when I was visiting and deciding if I was going to go there, but was I really deciding no? I'll let you go there. But that I could like, deciding whether I would be miserable while I was there. And so Justin was the first person I met. And feel like Justin is five years older than me. It has to be said.  Justin: Does it? Angela: When I think about people, and I think about like mentors, I have other like amazing mentors, but like, I think that there's really something special about somebody who some people might think is your peer, but like, in a lot of ways you've been like looking up to them and, um, that has been me with Justin. I think of him as like a person who is not only, he's a Capricorn, and he has big Capricorn energy. I am an Aquarius. I do not want to be perceived— Justin: I don't agree with any of this. But I don't know. I don't follow any of this. Angela: But Justin is in the business of perceiving me and also gathering me up and helping me do better. My life is just always getting better because of it. I'm grateful for it. Annie: That is beautiful, all of that is beautiful. Justin, tell us about Angela. Justin: I can't follow that, that is so...  Angela: Acurate! Justin: You're so prepared! You're so sweet! I'm so touched! Angela: Only a Capricorn would be touched by somebody saying that you perceive them and gather them up and make them feel better. Ha ha ha! Justin: I like that, I do like that. Let's see, yeah. I mean, I think that when we met, I had already been in Iowa for a year, and within two seconds, I was like, oh, we're gonna be friends, and you don't know it yet. But I knew it intensely. And yeah, I think that one of the, I agree that I think we keep each other honest, I think. I think that one of the things that I just so appreciate about Angela is that, you know, yeah, you see my bullshit. You put up with it for like a certain amount of time, and then you're like, all right, we need to talk about the bullshit that you're pulling right now. And I love it, I love it, love it, love it, because I don't know, I think you really keep me grounded. I think that, yeah, it's been really (14:09) wonderful to have you in my life. And like, our lives really, really kind of pivoted towards one another. You know, like we've, it was not just like, oh, we were in grad school and then, you know, whatever, we have similar career paths, so we stayed friends or whatever. It's like, we became family. And, you know, every, every kind of major event in either of our lives is a major event, a shared major event, right? And that's like, yeah, I don't know. I can't imagine my life without you. I honestly can't. Angela: Likewise. I gave birth in Justin's home. Annie: Oh! Sweet! Justin: In my bathroom, over there. Right over there. Lito: Whoa, congratulations, and also scary(?)! Angela: It's in a book I'm writing, so I won't say so much about it, but it was a COVID home birth success story. And yeah, like family. Lito: Was that the plan or did that just happen? Angela: Well, It wasn't the plan and then it was the plan. Justin: Yeah, exactly. COVID wasn't the plan. Angela: No. Justin: The plan was Angela was gonna sublet my place with her husband and she was pregnant. And then, COVID happened Angela: There were a lot of pivots. But we did, it was like enough of a plan where we got his blessing to give birth in his home. Justin: It wasn't a surprise. Angela: It was a surprise that it was in the bathroom, but that's a different story. Annie: You blessed that bathroom is all I can say. Angela: Yeah. Lito: We'll be right back. Back to the show. Annie: (16:22) Well, I want to come back to what Lido was saying about proper missives. I love the intimacy. I mean, I know you weren't writing those to one another for kind of public consumption, but the intimacy and the connection, it's so moving. And I was thinking about, you know, Justin, you, you talk about Angela as kind of pointing the way to beauty and helping you see the world anew or differently. And Angela, you talked about how Justin encourages you to take up space as a political act. I'm just wondering what else you all have taught one another. What has your LitFriend taught you? Justin: Yeah, I mean, we did write that for public consumption. Angela: Yes, it was the editor-in-chief of Spook, Jason Parham. Spook is relaunching soon, so look out for it. He just told me that, like, the other day. And he's moving to L.A. So many things are happening. But he reached out to us and was really interested in—he's a big archives guy and like how—he thought it was valuable the way that writers of past generations, they have these documents of their letters to each other, to their editors, to their friends, to their enemies, and how this generation, because we're just texting through it, we don't really have that. And so that was really just the extent of the assignment, was to write letters to each other, which, of course, we still ended up using email to do. But we really tried to keep it in the spirit of a letter and not just something you kind of dash off. Justin: And we were not living in the same place at that time. Angela: No. Justin: So it was, it did feel kind of— Angela: I was in Provincetown, I think. Justin: Yeah, I remember I was on a train when I was, when I was doing— I can't remember where I was going or, but I remember a lot of it was— or a few of those correspondences— because it went over days, weeks. Lito: Yeah, you were going to Paris. Angela: Oh. Glamorous train. You were on the Eurostar. Justin: Wow. Annie: You basically said the same thing then, Angela. Call him out. Justin: (18:32) Yeah, and I think that what I was saying was that one of the things I loved about that was it really forced us to dive deeper, right? To kind of— Sometimes we can stay very much on the surface because we talk every day. And so it was really nice to see, not just what was kind of on your mind in the background, but also how you were processing it, how you kind of made language and meaning out of it. I was just like... I don't know, it's like, I know you're so deep, but then we also love to be shallow. And so it's so nice to be like, to connect from that deep place. Annie: One of the things that I'm so drawn to about both of your work is how you write about family, the way it shapes us, the way it wounds us, what it means to watch family members suffer. You talk about it as the question of the donut hole in "Proper Missive. Angela, I remember you were writing about your father. When you were writing about him, you talk about, "the assumption that a flawed person should be subject to anyone's definition." And Justin, I'm thinking quite broadly in terms of, you know, chosen or logical family. One of my favorite pieces that I teach in my creative non-fiction class is "Leashed," and you write there, "my friends, those tough women and queers were all too sharp and creative for their jobs. If I'm nostalgic, it's not because I was happy in those precarious years, but because I was deeply moved by our resourcefulness." I'm just wondering how you think about, you know, (20:09) family, logical family, and how your lit friendship fits into this? Justin: Who's going first? Angela: You. Justin: Let's see, I think that it's such a great question. I actually like, I use that little short kind of tiny little piece that you referenced. I use that in my book, in Blackouts, that's coming out. I think that, which is a book about chosen family as well, and lineages, and what do you do when you feel there's some kind of disruption, right? That like if you're estranged from your biological family or you know or you just need these connections, these kind of queer connections to and other ways of thinking about family that are not related to (21:06) bloodlines. Like we said earlier, we are family, and we've known that for quite a while. It was something that, I don't know. You know, it's like something that I don't think you ever really need to say. It's just you know who your people are. And I think that, and I think that it's a choice that you make and remake again and again and again. And that is something that is, I don't know, it's so exceptional, right? Compared to bloodlines and biological family, which can be hugely important and bring a lot of meaning to people. But that you're choosing this again and again. Like almost like the kind of past tense chosen family is like, it's like a little bit inaccurate, right? It's like the family you choose, and keep choosing, and you're choosing right now, you know? So I love that. Yeah. Angela: Just that the continuity of it, not in the sense that it's always going to be there, but that like you are, you're like an active, uh, engager like in it. In it, I just think about, I think about that, like, uh, at this point we know each other for 14 years. And the way that there's just necessarily we're not the same people but you have to keep, and you have to keep engaging, and you have to keep figuring out how to navigate different things and I think particularly as like LitFriends there's the huge thing you have to navigate which is especially if you're friends before that you're just like some kids who got into this program that people think are fancy, but you're just like, anything can happen, right? From there to being the capital— going from just like lowercase w, "writer," to capital A, "Author." And like what that, I mean, I've seen many a friendship where that is the rupture. And so particularly figuring out, like, how are you going to navigate that, and how are you going to still be in each other's lives. (23:16.33) Um, one thing I think about, as a person who thinks about family a lot is, with your family, sometimes you can like harm one another, and you'll just take some time off, or you'll just be like, that's how they are. But with the family that you continue to choose, you have to, ideally, you gotta do something about it. You have to actually have the engagement, and you have to figure out how to come out on the other side of it. And that is something that is harder and really in so many ways, all the more precious because of it. And it requires a kind of resilience and also just like a trust. And again, because Justin, you know, likes to gather me up, there's been a few times when I was like, "Oh, no, like, we've got beef, what's gonna happen?" And Justin is like, "we're family, what's gonna happen is we're gonna have to talk about this beef, and then move on." Justin: Yeah. And I think that I think that also you have, you're really good at reminding me to be responsible, right? That just because I've made this commitment, in my mind, right, Like we're committed forever. Like we're family. Like we can't, we can't break up, right? Like it's just like, that's just the way it is. It doesn't get me off the hook of showing up in other ways and being responsible and like, you know, that I can be quite flaky. Angela: I mean, that's just, you've been in L.A. long enough. It's just, you're just becoming native. Justin:  I think I always don't, I don't wanna disappoint you. I don't want you ever to feel like you were looking around for support, and I wasn't there. Angela: Do people cry on this podcast? Annie: We time it. Right at the half hour. Justin: There's been a few moments when I feel it, when I've felt (25:21) maybe that wasn't there enough, you know? And, you know, and if, you know, and like, I don't know, that's when you know it's the real stuff because it like keeps me up at night. You know, I'm just like, wow, you know, what does she need? What can I give? How can I be there? And yeah. Angela: Wow.  There you are. Justin: Here we are. Annie: Lito and I are also family, and it sort of feels never too late. But what you're saying about kind of the like renewing your vows, renewing your commitment over and over, it feels very, very true. Lito: Very true. Yeah yeah yeah. Annie: And life-saving, you know, like life affirming. Lito: It feels real. Justin: Yeah. Look at us. I'm proud of us. I'm proud of you guys too. Lito: It's a love fest over here. Angela: Thanks for having it. Annie: We'll be right back. Annie: (26:26) Welcome back. Angela: Also, particularly again, thinking about a lot of the friends that you have, they're not necessarily also sometimes colleagues. And I think that one thing that Justin really modeled, because I didn't have anything to be transparent about, was just transparency about things. Not just how much he's getting paid for things, but just like what was worth it, what's not worth it, like what is just the way something is and you can like take it or leave it. And I think that in the beginning it was more of me kind of taking that information because I didn't have anybody offering me anything. But now I feel like it's really an exchange of information. And I think that there are people who I love, like, in this industry, if you will, who that's just not our relationship. That doesn't mean we don't have great friendships, but like that is something that like if I'm broke, he knows I'm broke. I never feel the need to pretend and hide or like, you know, and likewise, like if he don't got it, I know he don't got it. It's not, it's just, it just, and I feel like that is something also that is a, it's, um, I think it's important. Especially because you write a book, you know, it does well. And then there are some years in between before you write another. Some of us in this room, maybe take a decade. All of us in this room, maybe take a decade. But yeah, so just really being able to be, to feel like you can still show up at any point in whatever you're doing creatively. Justin: (28:16) Because this is about literary friendships, I think that it's, yeah, there's those two sides, right? There's the business side, which can cause a lot of friction, especially if, you know, things go differently for different books and people have different trajectories. I mean, you're like, you know:  you've surpassed.  Angela: I don't know if that's true.  Justin: But there's that like business side of it. And then there's the literary side as well. And I think that sometimes if it just slides too much into talking about—it's like we could both be selling sprockets, right? There's so much minutiae. It's like we could talk about contracts and whatever and like gigs and da-da-da ad nauseam. And we have to remember to talk about literary side, the literature, the work, the sentences, what we're reading in order to kind of sustain the literary quality of a literary friendship, right?  Angela: One thing I remember you told me, I don't know, ages ago that I thought at the time like oh he's gassing me he's practicing things that he says his students tell me—but now I realize that it is also one of the reasons why our friendship has sustained is you were like ,you know, we can talk about whether a book is successful in 800 ways, but we have to try to remember to just be fans, to be fans of books, of literature, of people writing. And I think that is something that I not only try to practice, but that's something that I think is really foundational to relationship. Everyone can be a hater, and it can be fun sometimes, but like… (30:08) We really do like want to put each other on to the books that we're like excited about. Like I remember when you read or reread Seasons of Migration to the North by Tayeb Salih, and I hadn't read it before.  I mean, it's like a, it's a seminal or really a really famous African text, but I had never read it. Or like Maryse Condé, like I hadn't read it as like a real adult and being able to just like talk about that and know that there's a person who's, you know, you could be in polite conversation with somebody who you think is really smart and then you're like you know what I decided I wanted to reread—I don't know—something a person might wanna reread and they're like, Oh, what are you gonna do next? You gonna read a Moby Dick? And you're like, Oh damn, they just shamed me. You know, they just shamed me for being a nerd. But that's not gonna happen here. Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.  Annie: I do wanna go back to something you were alluding to. Angela, you were talking quite openly about it, too, which is shifting from writer to capital A author and the pressure that comes with that.  For the two of you, you had incredible well-deserved success early in your career, but I imagine that doesn't come without a lot of sleepless nights, right? I'm thinking about an interview I heard with Ta-Nehisi Coates where he talks about his friends not reaching out thinking, like, He's good, like, You blew up, you're good. And talking about actually what a lonely position that can be. I'm just wondering, you know, how you've both managed to take care of one another through those highs and lows, or being on that track alongside one another.  And even, you know, competition between lit friends. Justin: (32:13) Yeah, I mean, I think that we're just kind of, like our dispositions: we're very lucky in that I think we, before we met, it wasn't something that we like decided on. It was just before we met, I think we're just boosters, right. We're like, The people we love, their success is our success, right? And I think that's one of the reasons to where we are such good friends, it's because we share that, right? So that I think makes it slightly easier as far as like the competition side of things goes. I think that if it really does feel like you're a family and you're community and like you understand that this is a kind of shared win. I don't know, it's hard to talk about though because we both got really lucky.  Angela: Yeah.  Justin: You know, I mean, who wants to hear from people who got really lucky with their first books talking about how hard it is? You know what I mean?  We just, we didn't have, we didn't have any kind of that disparity between— Angela: Yeah, I'm sure, but—I would say even so—if we had different dispositions, we might be trying to split hairs about who got what. But I think for me—and Justin and I grew up very differently in some ways, but I think we grew up from a class background similarly, and we're both like, We're not supposed to be here, like, what can we get? Like, what can we get? And like, who has the information to help us get it? And so I've never been like, why is he in that room when I'm not in that room? I'm like, give me the intel about the room. That might be the closest I ever get to being in there, but I need to know like what's going on in there. And that has, I think, been the way that I just view any success of anybody that I know. that I feel like I can ask those questions to is like, not necessarily like, oh, can you put me on? Like now that you have something, can I have some of it? But just like, just information, just like, what's it like? And that to me is really useful. But also I think that one thing, when you have people, not just Justin, but like other friends and mentors of mine, when you have people who are honest and upfront about whatever kind of success they've had, you… you just realize that there's a lot of different ways to feel successful, right? Because I have friends who, to me, I'm like, they made it, but they're not convinced they have. And I have other friends that, like, to the outside world, they'd be like, wow, they have a little book, nobody cares. But they feel like they did it, you know? And so I realized it's so much about disposition also. Lito:   Do you feel that a lot about being each other's boosters? I mean, obviously it's about your personalities and who you are as people. I'm also curious how much of that, like Angela, you said you were a gatecrasher. You feel like a gatecrasher a lot. I don't know. What are your thoughts on intersectionality? How does it inform your work and your friendship? How does it affect how you boost each other? I'm also curious if there's something particular about lit friendships that intersect with intersectionality and those categories, especially for people who form intimate relationships with men.  Justin:   Wait, say more.  Like how do blowjobs come in?   Angela:  (36:01.171). I was like one thing we have in common is— Lito: More like, less blow jobs, more like having to deal with men and the various ways they, you know, respond to patriarchy.  Justin: Yeah, I think you kind of said it, right? I think that there's something about hustling and figuring out, like, how am I gonna find some stability in this world.  And I mean we have nominated each other for every single thing that there is. If either one of us gets a chance.  Angela: Till the end of time.  Justin:   Till the end of time, right? And it's just, and I think that, and we've shared all information about everything. There's no, and I think that that's kind of like that quote that you read before, right, about this nostalgia and feeling nostalgic, not for the precarity, but for the way that it bonds people, right? The way that the precarity, like you pull, you share resources, you pull resources, you come together and you talk shit and you don't let people get too down in the dumps and depressed. And you're like, no, we're going to do this. We're going to get ourselves out of this hole and we're going to pull each other up. And, and that I think is like, that's, that's the secret, I think.  Angela: Are you answering the question about men?  Justin:   Oh, men!  Angela: And dealing with men.  Justin: I love that I was just like, oh, you're talking about blow jobs. But no, you were talking about patriarchy.  Lito: Same thing, really.  Annie: In the room I'm in, we do not think there's a difference.  Justin: It's fascinating, right? Because when we were at Iowa together, I remember some of the critiques I got from some of the men, some of the straight men, some of the white straight men, was about a kind of provincialism to my writing, right? That what I was writing about was small and minor and just about particularities of identity and that it wasn't broad and expansive and it wasn't universal. That was expected. That was the kind of critique that was expected. The world has changed so much and so quickly in the last 15 years. It's hard for me to kind of wrap my mind around because that kind of thing, I wasn't, I didn't feel indignant. Maybe I felt a little.  Angela: Yeah, you just, but you just like knew you were going to ignore them. Like, you know, like, but no, but you didn't feel like you were going to, like it was worth, except there were some instances we're not going to get into details, but like, it didn't feel like it was worth spending, like unpacking it or trying to call them out. You just were like, Oh, boop, you're over here. Like, you're not.  Justin: Yeah, yeah. Like, I've been hearing this shit my whole life. Like, it wasn't like, there's no space for this kind of thing in the workshop. I was like, this is the world. This is unexpected. But now I don't think that would fly, right?  Angela:   No. I think maybe in like 70% of workshop spaces that I have been in. Well, I guess I've been running them. But like, I just don't, but like also just the disposition of the students is that they assume that somebody is going to like say something or push back on that. But also I guess maybe more broadly the idea of when you say intersectionality, what do you mean exactly? Lito: I think I wanted to keep it open on purpose. But I think I mean the ways that all of these different identities that we take up and that are imposed upon us, how they intersect with one another, race, class, et cetera. Yeah. Angela: I think one of the reasons why Justin and I gravitated toward each other probably in the beginning and why we ended up in Spook is because I think that—which maybe is also not happening 15 years from then—there is a way that back then, there was a way that even your identity could be flattened, right? Like you're Puerto Rican, which means that you are like a lot of things, right? One of those things like, one of it's like we're both diasporic people, right? But that's one of the things that I think a lot of people would not necessarily think is like a kinship between us, but like I've seen pictures of Justin's cousins. I know I'm giving Primo over here. Like I know what I'm doing. And like that's one way that I think that our relationship feels like, like we just felt like kin when we first met because of that. I think that there's just a lot of ways that in a lot of spaces in this country, you're just not allowed to like have all of those parts of you in the room because people just don't understand it or they do, but they just don't want you to be that also.  Justin: It's not convenient.  Angela: Right. Which is why I was like, of course, Jason would ask you and I to be in Spook, which is a magazine that's a black literary magazine. Cause Jason gets it. Shout out to Jason again.  Justin: I can't believe he's moving to L.A., that's so exciting.  Angela: Supposedly like any day now, he's just gonna arrive. There's just ways that when you find your people, you don't have to always separate these parts of you and you don't always have to keep reminding them also, they sort of understand. But also parts of you change obviously and the way that you feel about your identity changes and your people will embrace that and keep, you know, keep making space for that too. Justin: Making space.  Annie: We'll be back in a moment with Angela and Justin. Lito: (42:22) Hey Lit Fam, we hope you're enjoying our conversation with Justin and Angela. We are quite awed by their thoughtful discussion and moved by their deep love for each other and their art. If you love what we're doing, please take a moment now to follow, subscribe, rate, and review the LitFriends Podcasts on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts. Just a few moments of your time will help us so much to continue bringing you great conversations like this week, after week. Thank you for listening. Annie: (42:59.178) Back to our interview with Justin Torres and Angela Flournoy.  Lito: Justin, you have your sophomore book. How do you feel about it? Are you going to write a sequel for We the Animals like you talked about at one point? Angela, same question. Are there sequels coming forth for you, Angela, to Turner House, or are you moving on to something else? Or you sort of briefly mentioned another book about, uh, I remember you mentioning at some point a book about friends, four female friends, if I remember correctly. Anyways, what's coming next?  Annie: Yeah, and I wanna know about the dreaded second novel because I feel like that's where I'm at. I feel like that's where a lot of writers get stuck. Jutin: Second novel's awful. I mean, you think the first one's bad. You think it takes everything that you have inside of you and then you're like, oh, I've gotta do it again. And yeah, I don't know. I really had a very hard time with it. And I mean, nobody knows better than Angela. I really, really didn't feel like I was up to the task. I knew that I wanted to do something different. I knew I wanted to kind of change the way I write and be a different kind of writer, but I just felt like I was falling on my face.  Even after it was done and out until like last week, I was just, I just felt anxiety about it, and I felt really neurotic and I was being really neurotic. And I remember the other night we were hanging out and drinking and maybe there was some mushroom chocolate involved. I was just, like I was just on my bullshit and Angela was just like stopped and she was just like, What is it gonna take to make you happy? Like what is it gonna take? Like look around. And it was like, it was a really good intervention. But then it also led to this conversation about happiness, right? And about like whether that is the goal, right? Like feeling kind of tortured and, and feeling like this gap between what you want for your book and your own capabilities. And that never goes away. You just live in this, in this torturous phase. And like, maybe it's about just coming to acceptance with that, rather than striving for happiness. I don't know. But it's still ringing in my ear. What is it gonna take?  Lito: It's a great question.  Angela:   Maybe some projection, I don't know, on my part.  I am still working on that novel. It's due at the end or at the beginning of next year. It's gonna come out in 2025. You know, God willing. And... similarly the second novel, I think it depends on your disposition, but I think both of us are very interested in and task ourselves with having real skin in the game with what we right. That means sometimes you got to figure out where you get that skin from.  Lito: There's only so much.  Angela: Like, if you played yourself for the first book, then it's gonna take a while. And when I think about, like, when I try to count for the years, I don't know I could have done it any quicker. Like, I just don't know. And I don't think that's gonna be the case for every book, but I do think between that first and that second, especially, were you 30? Where were you? I was 30, yeah. And then I was 30, too. I was 30 also when my book came out. You're just a baby.  You're just a baby.  Lito: Do you fall into the trap of comparing yourself to other people? Well, they wrote a book in two years and I— Justin:  (47:07) Yeah, sure. I mean, I also like compare myself to people who took longer like that feels good. That feels good.  Angela: Listen, I'm like Deborah Eisenberg. Just a banger every decade. That's it. That's all I owe the world. A banger a decade. Lito: A banger a decade. I like that. I like comparing myself to Amy Clampitt, who wrote her first collection of poetry, like in her 70s or something and had some success.  Justin: I generally wish people would slow down. I mean, I get that sometimes there's just like an economic imperative, right? But if you're lucky enough that, I don't know, you get a teaching job and you can slow down, why not slow down, right? Like, I don't know, sometimes I feel like there are a lot of books in this world. And the books that somebody spent a lot of time over, whether or not they are my tastes—I'm just so appreciative of the thoughtfulness that went in.  You can feel it, right? That somebody was really considering what they're building versus dashing it off. They should slow down, if they can.  Angela: But I also feel like we need both kinds. There are people who I appreciate their books, their kind of time capsules of just like, this is the two years, this is where I was. I think of Yiyun. We need an Yiyun Li and we need an Edward P. Jones. Edward P. Jones, you're gonna get those books when you get the books. And Yiyun Li, every couple years, you're gonna get something that, to me, I still, they still feel like really good books, but they're also just like, this is where she is right here, and I respect it and I appreciate it. Everybody can't be one or the other, you know?  Justin: You're right, you're right, you're right. It's much fairer.  Annie: She's someone who, I mean, you know, seems to have changed so much even within that time period. And we had her on a couple of episodes ago and yeah, she's just on fire. She's amazing.  Justin: (49:06) And people speed up as well, right? Because her first couple of books, there were big gaps. And then same thing with like Marilynne Robinson, right? She had massive gaps between books. And then suddenly it starts to speed up. And they're coming out every year, every two years. Yeah. Annie: It's the mortality.  Lito: Well, and life, well, I think lifestyle too, right? Like what you do, how busy you are and what you do out in the world. Like going out and meeting people and being gay in the world, that takes up time.  Annie: And your work has had other lives too. I mean, I'm thinking about how We the Animals was adapted to film in that beautiful, intimate portrait. And I know, you know, Angela, you've been working with HBO and some projects as well. I'm just, just wondering if you want to talk about your work in these other media, how it's been, and even thinking about the strikes, right? Like the WGA-SAG strikes and how that has been on the ground too.  Angela:  Very happy that the strike is over. Solidarity to our SAG-AFTRA brothers and sisters still out there. I passed them on the way here on Sunset. I did honk, wish I was out there today. But I think that for me, it's just like a bonus. Like I, especially now, there's a way that right now writers will say things that are a little snobby like, Oh, I could never be in a writer's room, the group project, man. But like when now that I know so many TV writers living here and I've met so many over the past 146 days on the line, I realized that it is, you just have to be so nimble and agile and you have to also be so not precious about story. But no less smart. A lot of things might end up on TV dumb, but I don't want to blame the writers for that. Now that I really have a real understanding of just how the sausage is made and just how big of like a game of telephone it is—and how much you have to relinquish control because at the end of the day it's like you're making this text, it's literary, but it's also like an instruction manual. It's a completely different way to think about writing. And I don't know how long I live in LA or how many like of those kind of projects I will do but I'm really grateful. And one reason I'm really grateful is because doing those projects and having those years where people thought I wasn't doing anything, but I was actually writing so much and like doing so many revisions.  It helped me realize that there is a way that I blame MFAs for making us like feel very siloed. And like, if you're supposed to be a fiction writer, that's the only thing that you do that's like an output that anyone cares about. But it's so new—like, how many screenplays did Joan Didion write? Like James Baldwin wrote screenplays. Before, it was just like, you're writing, you're writing. Like it's all, it all is the job. And I think every time a poet friend of mine like puts out a novel, sends it to me, read, sends it for me to read—first off, they usually are very good. But then also I'm just like, yes, fiction writers, I think, I don't know who did it. I blame graduate programs, but they have put themselves in this small box. Justin: But yeah, I mean, it's like the MFA, a lot of them feel like teacher training programs and that the next step is teaching. But if you don't want to teach the old models, definitely like you just write for TV. Angela: You write for film, you write for magazines, newspapers, you just do the thing. And that has felt very freeing to me, to just see meet more people who are doing that and also to allow myself to do that. Justin (52:49) Yeah, I mean, I really enjoyed the process of having my film—the book made into a film. I think I had an unusual experience with that. Like a lot of times the author is cut out or, you know, is not deferred to in any way, or nobody's inviting you in. I think because it was such a low budget film, and the director is just a really wonderful person who is incredibly collaborative.  He wanted me involved in every single part of it, and so I loved that. I think, I don't know, I think I might wanna adapt Blackouts for a play. I've been thinking about it lately. Angela: You should. I mean, in so many ways, it is kind of like a two-hander. Yeah. I could see it. Yeah.  Justin: A two-hander. Look at you ready to lingo. No, that's some biz lingo.  Lito: That's going to be the title of this podcast. It's a two-hander. How has art shaped your friendship? And I mean, art, like other genres, we've talked about getting out of the box of fiction, but what movies or art or music do you love to talk about or do you just talk about everything or anything that you're watching and how have other genres affected your work? Like, do you listen to music? Are you influenced by visual art?  Angela: You wanna talk about things you watch on television? You ready to come out in that manner?  Justin: No.  Lito: You watch lots of TV? No. Are you a Housewives person?  You're a Housewives watcher, aren't you?  Justin: Housewives is too highbrow for me. I have like a…I have a secret fetish that is mine. Angela: You have to keep some things for yourself. Justin: Yes. But it's just like, that's how I turn my brain off when my brain needs to be turned off.  Annie: I will wait another decade for that story. Justin: I also like culture and high art as well. You write about art a lot. You do profiles. Angela: I do. I wish I did it more. It's just everything, you know, takes time. I think for me, like when I think about—I just am learning different ways to make a life out of, you know, out of your mind and out of art. And one thing that I've learned when I talk to, like visual artists, particularly, is this idea—I think poets also have this—but fiction writers, a friend of mine actually, a poet, recently asked me, like, how does a fiction writer get a practice, like a practice of writing? Practicing their craft in a way that like a visual artist, you know, they go to the studio practice or poet might have a practice. And I don't believe necessarily that sitting down to write every, you know, three hours every day is the same thing. Because like if you don't know what you're writing, but I really do think that practice is more grounded in reading.  Justin: And reading, I think reading literature for sure, but also reading the world, right? And that's what you do when you go to an exhibit or you go to a museum or you go to a concert or whatever, right, you're like reading, you know, and you're reading the experience, you're reading for other things.  Lito: Is there anything you're both fans of that you both talk about a lot? Any artists or musicians or movies? Justin (56:26) You know, I think that we have some lowbrow sharing tastes. But I think that our highbrow, I don't know. We don't talk a lot about our pursuant— I think I'm into a lot of, like when I was looking at, when I was putting together Blackouts, I was looking at a lot of archival photos and like the photos of Carl Van Vechten, I just, I'm obsessed with…  I've been spending a lot of time with them, thinking about him and his practice. I think that, you know, I like all kinds of stuff. I'm like a whatever, what's that horrible term? Culture vulture?  Angela: I don't think that's what you wanna say. But I know what you mean, yeah.  Justin: Yeah, I am democratic in my tastes. I'm just like, I like everything. We don't have a lot of shared tastes, I don't think.  Angela: Um... No?  Justine: No.  Annie:  I sort of love that. I mean, it, um, the friendship, belies, that, you know, it's only a bonus in that way. I think Lito and I also have very different tastes. There's something kind of lovely about that. Lito: I remember Annie making fun of me for not being hardcore enough in my taste in hip-hop. Annie:    I guess we're putting our dirt out there too.  Lito:   We'll be right back with the Lightning Round. Annie:   Ooh, Lightning Round. Annie: (58:12) Thank you both for talking with us today. This was really wonderful. We really feel the honesty and warmth in your friendship and we're so appreciative that you're sharing that with us today and with all of our LitFriends. We're excited for both your books and we're so grateful you spent the last hour with us.  Angela: That was a pleasure.  Justin: Thank you. Lito: All right, we're gonna we— wrap up the podcast with a Lightning Round, just a few questions. We will ask the question and then I guess we'll do it this way. When I ask the question, Angela, you can answer. And when Annie asks the question, Justin, you answer first. Sorry, first answer first. You're both going to answer the question. What is your first memory?  Angela:  My sister roller skating through sprinklers and falling and hitting her head. Justin: I literally have no idea. I, yeah, I don't know. It's a blackout.  Angela: How many times have you said that?  Lito:  Very on brand.  Angela: You've had a long book tour. Justin: I'm practicing.  Annie: Who or what broke your heart first?  Angela: Is it too deep to say my daddy? I know.  Justin: I was going to say my daddy.  Angela: That's why we're friends.  Justin: I know. It's so sad.  Angela: (59:37) Daddy issues.  Lito: Who would you want to be lit friends with from any time in history?  Angela: Toni Morrison.   Justin: Yeah, maybe Manuel Puig. He seemed really cap and hilarious. And also a brilliant genius.  Angela: I need Toni Morrison to tell me how to raise my child. And to still write books. Someone help me. Annie: What would you like to see your lit friend make or create next, maybe something collaborative or something different or a story they haven't told yet?  Justin: I mean, I think I would love to see you actually write something kind of ekphrastic. Like I'd love to see you write about art. I love when you write about art. I love your thoughts about art and art makers. So maybe, like, a collection of essays about culture. I'd love that. Angela: Besides this two-handed, this play, which I would love for you to write. Maybe there's more, I mean, there's more voices in the book than two, though. So it doesn't have to be. Justin is a poet. I have said this since the beginning. I'm ready for this collection.  Justin: Never occurred to me in my life. Angela:   That is not true.  Justin:   Well, writing a collection. Angela:   Okay, well, I would love for you to write a collection of poetry.  Justin:   Maybe I will. Maybe you just gave me permission, as the children say.  Angela:   Mm-hmm. I know.  Lito: If you could give any gift to your LitFriend without limitations, what would you give them?  Angela: I would give him a house with a yard and a pool.  Justin: That's what I want.  Angela: In a city he wants to live in. That's the key.  Lito: That's the hard part. Justin:  (01:01:35) Um, I would give Angela time to be with her thoughts and her craft. I guess what does that involve?  Angela:   This is because I call myself a busy mom all the time.  Justin: You are a busy mom. Angela: (01:02:08) Thank you, that's a nice gift. Time is the best.  Justin: I mean, it's not as good as a house with a pool.  Angela: I know, because I can use my time as wisely as possible and yet—no pool. Lito: Well, that's our show. Annie & Lito: Happy Friendsgiving! Annie: Thanks for joining us, Lit Fam. Lito:   We'll be back next week with our guests, Lucy Corin and Deb Olin Unferth. Annie: Find us on all your socials @LitFriendsPodcast. Annie: I'm Annie Liontas.  Lito:   And I'm Lito Velázquez.  Annie:   Thank you to our production squad. Our show is edited by Justin Hamilton. Lito:   Our logo was designed by Sam Schlenker.  Annie:   Lizette Saldaña is our marketing director.  Lito:   Our theme song was written and produced by Robert Maresca.  Annie:   And special thanks to our show producer, Toula Nuñez. This was LitFriends, Episode One.

Eadweard Mybridge, a 19th century English photographer, was a pioneer in studying motion and capturing moving images.Mybridge was likely Autistic, exhibiting traits like monotropism, attention to detail, data gathering, and artistic integrity. He had intense interests like studying horse gaits and photographing motion.He invented the zoopraxiscope, which projected motion pictures and allowed him to study and capture animal and human movement in sequences of photos taken in quick succession. This led to the development of motion pictures and cinematography.Mybridge's big emotions led to him being at the center of his own true crime murder plot line, with a surprise twist ending!“He was defined as, quote, ‘impassive indifference and uncontrolled explosions of emotion,' because he went from being very matter-of-fact—as we tend to do—to being very passionate, also as we tend to do.” —MattIn his lifetime, Mybridge took hundreds of thousands of photographs, including many controversial nude studies to analyze motion, and published collections like Animal Locomotion.He led an adventurous life, traveling extensively to photograph in the American West and invented photographic techniques and equipment like a mobile darkroom.Angela: You know, like autistic people generally have like less money, on average, than neurotypical people. But if we just like got rid of money, and everybody could have anything they wanted, how much crazy s**t would autistic people be doing?Matt: Oh, God, yes.His work was influential on many later creations like stop-motion animation, the Matrix bullet time effect, and more. He brought a scientific approach to analyzing motion.Podcast hosts Matt and Angela discuss how his apparent "unmasking" after a near-fatal accident allowed him to fully pursue his interests without regard for social conventions. They tie his dedication and focus to Autistic traits. Join us as we dive into the extraordinary life of this Autistic celebrity.Do you love motion pictures? What do you love about them?* Eadweard Mybridge's wet plate collodion pictures* Ponies are Autistic* Eadweard biopic* Eadweard Muybridge Wikipedia pageRelated…Episode 41: Tim Burton is Autistic and Episode 04: Industrial Light & Magic Ready for a paradigm shift that empowers Autistics? Help spread the news!* TACP on Instagram* Find us on Apple podcasts and Spotify* Matt Lowry, LPP* Matt's social media: Autistic Connections Facebook Group* AngelaLauria.com and Difference Press* Angela's social media: Twitter and TikTok* TACP's Autism-affirming TeePublic merch shop This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.autisticculturepodcast.com/subscribe

She's back!!! In this week's episode Angela Lundy and I sat down to talk all about the things that are lighting us up at the moment! To stay on track we split each topic into 15 minute segments so we didn't over-talk on a topic...yes we needed to have a time limit haha. If you didn't listen to my last podcast with Angela, here is a brief bio of all her amazingness

I had an absolute blast meeting with my friend Angela Lundy this past week! Angela is pursuing a lifelong journey to align with purpose. She used Human Design, Astrology, and Gene keys on herself to gain a really deep understanding of who she is and what she came here to do. In Human Design she is a 6/2 Manifesting Generator, allowing her to live a multi passionate life doing things she loves. Angela would consider herself a life-long learner and more of a guide than a coach. She is leading people through a journey to re-write the stories they tell themselves in order to uncover their true genius.We have great chemistry together and talked about a lot of different ideas and topics. We even dropped a special announcement in the podcast

Welcome back to

In this episode of The Autistic Culture Podcast:On this week's virtual culture trip, Matt Lowry and Angela Lauria discuss the origins of Sesame Street, created with the goals of promoting equality, acceptance, and education through family entertainment. The podcast hosts highlight how Jim Henson's Muppets brought commercial-like musical segments to captivate kids' attention and teach letters/numbers. The character Bert displays many Autistic traits and is discussed as a positive representation of Autistic adults. The new Sesame Street muppet, Julia, was first introduced as part of an autism initiative with input from ASAN (the Autistic Self Advocacy Network) to create authentic representation. However, Sesame Street has since controversially partnered with and accepted funding from Autism Speaks—an organization criticized for promoting eugenics that is widely viewed as a hate group in the Autistic community (including promoting a 100 day kit that involves having a funeral for your very-much-still-alive Autistic child or children). Sesame Street soon faced backlash from the Autistic community who felt betrayed by the new inaccurate and harmful portrayal. Soon after, ASAN cut ties with Sesame Street. “Yeah, and this is the big difference between the Autistic community and the autism community. Because the Autistic community is comprised of Autistic people, Autistic families, and people who, again like us, see autism as a culture and something that is to be celebrated rather than fixed, the autism culture tries to separate autism from the person and…It's like a gremlin that lives in your child's brain that is to be defeated instead of to be understood.” —MattThe hosts reflect on how capitalism and corporate sponsorships can undermine even well-intentioned media like Sesame Street from fully promoting acceptance of neurodiversity. They explore the nuances of representation in media and how the Autistic community can work towards better representation moving forward. Angela: You know, love yourself, accept yourself, and learn your neurology—there's not a lot of people making money off of that.Matt: That's the thing, that's the thing. There is so much money to be made from, quote, ‘curing the autism,' but self-acceptance is free.They also address Sesame Street's long history of listening to and uplifting the voices of actually Autistic individuals since it's founding. Despite not always getting it right, Sesame Street has been influenced by, and has contributed to, Autistic Culture significantly over the decades. They conclude by encouraging listeners to educate others on Autistic experiences, as many parents may not be aware of these issues. Sharing positive stories of Autistic people is key to broadening acceptance and understanding.Did you grow up loving Sesame Street? Do you find the characters relatable? Tell us about it in the comments?The Amazing SongASAN on Autism SpeaksIlluminaughtii on Autism SpeaksMore on Autism SpeaksMuppet Guys TalkingFrank Oz at Jim Hensen's MemorialStreet Gang: How We Got to Sesame Street, appeared in 202Looking for kid-friendly Autistic characters? Check out: Episode 22: Trains are Autistic and Episode 18: Ponies are AutisticReady for a paradigm shift that empowers Autistics? Help spread the news!Check us out on InstagramFind us on Apple podcasts and SpotifyLearn more about Matt at Matt Lowry, LPPMatt's social media: Autistic Connections Facebook GroupLearn more about Angela at AngelaLauria.com and Difference PressAngela's social media: Twitter and TikTokTACP's Autism-affirming TeePublic merch shop This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.autisticculturepodcast.com/subscribe

Katie: Welcome to Everyday Happiness where we create lasting happiness in about two minutes a day through my signature method of Intentional Margins®,  (creating harmony between your to-dos and your priorities), happiness, science and musings about life. I'm your host, Katie Jefcoat and today we get to do a longer bonus episode with my dear friend,  Dr. Angela Williamson. I'm kind of pinching myself that I actually got time with this person because she's going to knock your socks off. She is so inspirational and has done so many cool things. She's an Emmy nominated producer and director. She hosts a weekly interview show on TV on KLCS PBS in Los Angeles and she's doing the most amazing things and I can't wait for you to meet her.  Angela, welcome to the show. Angela: Hi Katie. I'm so honored by that introduction and humbled. Katie: Well, I am just so excited for everyone that I know to know you. As most of us, if you've been listening to podcasts for a little bit, you know, I'm a connector. I love when people can connect. It is my most favorite thing. And so I can't wait for people to get to know you. So it's hard to know where to start. But I'm just curious, how did you get into this space, all the passion that you do right now, what led you to what you're working on and all of the magic that you're bringing to so many people right now? Angela: Well, I think this is why I'm so excited to be on your podcast, because you focus so much on happiness and we see happiness as something that's tangible and sometimes we have to charge our thinking and see happiness as a mindset. And I am going to be completely transparent with you and have this authentic conversation with you and tell you that how I became the doctor, Angela Williamson that's on your podcast today is that I was really unhappy in 2014 to 2015. I felt completely lost and because I felt lost, I had pretty much given up on any kind of happiness and having things going on for me. I didn't understand that happiness is a journey. And in your happiness journey, there are going to be times that you need to rear off that path a little bit and come back to it. And when you come back to it, you have to be determined to go on that path. A lot of times we look at happiness and just think it's something that drops right into our laps. But we have to realize it's part of our journey and we have to set our intention. And so that is how it all started, was in an effort to gain back happiness in my life, I decided to pick up a mantle that I had put on the shelf for years to move into education, get my doctorate, go back to my other love, video production and tell a story about my husband's cousin, who I always admired  growing up but didn't really understand the true story until I started telling it about Rosa Parks.  In telling that story, not just about Rosa Parks, but about all of the women who worked hard to celebrate her life and her legacy, I started to transform from within and find my happiness setting. And in doing all of that and in telling that story, I didn't realize that I was making other people happy as well. And that's when things started to grow, even to the point where I had to start to mature. And I think when we think about happiness, we have to realize that there's maturity behind it. And when you can start to mature in your happiness and find it, when your path gets a little bit on a detour, is when you start to find your greatest happiness, your greatest hope, but then you start to encourage others as well. And that started happening with me when I started doing that in 2015. And you even mentioned that I'm on this amazing show on a PBS station, which, as a documentary film producer, as an educator, I mean, you love PBS. I never would have even been able to get into that door if I hadn't looked at a situation that happened to all of us in 2020 with the pandemic and everything shutting down and finding my happiness there. And that includes doing Facebook live with people like yourself. You are like my first guest on my Facebook Live. I reached out to you, and it's funny. I want to tell your audience. We know each other, but we were never in a book together. We just met each other and connected. But I didn't realize by just doing those first early days of Facebook live, trying to bring happiness to myself and to my students and to educators, that what we were doing is we were setting the platform for me to have this show, because a producer that was creating that show just happened to catch some of those early Facebook lives. And so I just think that is really what changed my life to where we're at in 2022, because when I started out and I had to choose my happiness, I can tell everybody I just wanted to be a full time senior professor. That's what I was trying to do. But that didn't happen. But everything else that has happened has allowed me to fulfill my heart's desire of educating the masses in a form of media that I love, television and film. Katie: I find that so fascinating because you had this moment in time in 2014, 2015, where you're like, this doesn't feel right. I don't feel authentic. It feels hard. This should not be so hard. And then shortly thereafter you dove into the story of Rosa Parks through your family and how to tell a story from a different perspective, which I think is fascinating. The documentary is amazing. There's also a book now that you've done on Rosa Parks for children, which is really amazing. And so through that storytelling you really found, I mean you probably had done things before that I don't know all the details, but you had found this confidence or this voice or this aura about you that's so attractive. People that are go-getters are attracted to other go-getters. And so you did this and you were like, this feels good. And then you continue down education, helping college students in education. Just one of the ways that we started connecting even more and then Facebook live, you just never know. There was another person that did these episodes a couple of weeks ago, C.Lee Cawley, and she met a man at a doctor's office. I think they exchanged phone numbers. The man's wife and she became friends, started a mom's group that now has  2500+ paid members because she met a guy at a doctor's office that she said hello to. So it was like this Facebook live, somebody is seeing something, you just never know. And that's such an important message I really want to zone in on because if you're doing something that lights your hair on fire, if you're doing something you're passionate about, you can't help but attract the right people. And I think that is just so inspirational and I can't wait for the audience to just get to hear so much goodness and so much juiciness from all of the things that you are about to share over the next five days because it's going to be magic, it's going to be so much fun.   I always, always admire all of your thoughtfulness and so I can't wait to hear what you have to say from some of the questions that I've asked you. And I don't know the answers either. So I'm going to be tuning in like the rest of us. So thank you. Angela: You're welcome. And thank you for having me host over the next five days. This is so exciting for me. Katie: I am just so excited. I can't even tell you. It is a feather in my cap. I'm so excited and I cannot wait. So tomorrow, tune in to hear what Dr. Angela Williamson has to say. She's talking first about one piece of advice that she wished she knew on her happiness journey. And I am sitting at the edge of my chair, I can't wait to hear what you have to say. So until next time, remember, kindness is contagious.

Join us as we talk about all things you should give yourself permission to do in homeschool - change, quit, protect, trust, and say yes. Fall 2022 Season Sponsors   We are so grateful to our Fall 2022 Season Sponsors. Use the links below for their special offerings:   Blossom & Root and use code HSUnrefined15 for 15% off your purchase   Outschool and use code Unrefined for $20 off your first class    Night Zookeeper for a 7-day, risk-free trial, as well as 50% off an annual subscription  LTWs    Maren: Love Hard   Angela: Glass Onion: A Knives Out Mystery   Connect with us!  Visit our website  Sign up for our newsletter and get our Top 100 Inclusive Book List We are listener supported! Support us on Patreon Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and see video episodes now on Youtube Angela on Instagram: @unrefinedangela | Maren on Instagram: @unrefinedmaren and @alwayslearningwithmaren  Email us any questions or feedback at homeschoolunrefined@gmail.com   Complete Episode Transcript   [00:00:09] Maren: hi, we're Mar and Angela of homeschool, unrefined. Over the past 25 years, we've been friends, teachers, homeschool parents and podcasters, together with our master's degrees and 20 years combined homeschooling. We're here to rethink homeschooling, learning, and education with an inclusive and authentic  [00:00:28] Angela: lens. [00:00:30] At Homeschool, unrefined, we prioritize things like giving yourself credit, building strong connections, respectful parenting, interest led playing and learning, learning differences, mental health, self care, and listening to and elevating LGBTQ plus and BI voices.  [00:00:48] Maren: We are here to encourage and support you. [00:00:51] Whether you're a new homeschooler, a veteran, you love curriculum, you're an unschooler. Whether all your kids are at home or all your kids are [00:01:00] at school or somewhere in between. Wherever you are on your journey, we are the voice in your head telling you, you're doing great, and so are your  [00:01:07] Angela: kids. This is episode 2 0 2. [00:01:11] You don't need our permission, but we are gonna talk about five things we should always allow ourselves to do, and then we are gonna end like we always do with our lt. Ws Loving this week. And before we get started, we wanted to let you know if you are listening to this the day it comes out on Monday, then tomorrow, December. [00:01:33] Sixth, we are going to be having our class in Patreon that's gonna be all about how to take a winter break. Mm-hmm. . And that is gonna be at one o'clock central. We'd love to have you there. It's gonna be informal. There's gonna be 30 minutes of us talking live, and then there's gonna be 15 minutes of q and a. [00:01:52] So if you'd like to join us, you can go to pat our Patreon links in the show notes and get set up there.  [00:01:57] Maren: Yes.  [00:01:59] All [00:02:00] of my kids' favorite classes they've taken have been from out school, which is one of the reasons we're thrilled to have them as a sponsor. We know that kids who love to learn don't just prepare for the future. [00:02:11] They create it. That's why Out School has reimagined online learning to empower kids and teens to expand their creativity, wonder and knowledge. Empathetic, passionate teachers encourage learners ages three to 18 to explore their. Connect with diverse peers from around the world and take an active role in leading their learning out. [00:02:33] School has created a world filled with endless possibilities for every schooling journey.  [00:02:38] Explore over 140,000 fun and flexible live online classes to find the right fit for your family and join us as we set learning free. Sign up today at Out schooler.me/homeschool unrefined, and get up to $20 off your first class when you enroll  [00:02:56] Angela: with the code on. We [00:03:00] love when companies try to teach subjects in new and innovative ways, and that's why we're so excited to introduce you to Night Zookeeper. [00:03:08] Is your child a reluctant writer? Do they struggle with reading? If your answer to either of these questions is yes, then night zookeeper may just be what you're looking for. Night Zookeeper is an online learning program for children, ages six to 12 years old that uses a gamified and creative approach to help keep kids engaged and focused on developing awesome reading and writing skills all while having fun at the same time. [00:03:31] Some of the features we love include the educational games, the personalized feedback on writing from real tutors and the super safe community pages where children can work with each other and learn. If Night Zookeeper sounds like the perfect learning program for your child, you can try it for free by clicking on the link in the show notes. [00:03:50] When you register, they'll get a seven day risk free trial as well as a huge 50% off an annual subscription. That is a great deal if you ask me.  [00:03:59] Maren: [00:04:00] My family has spent so many hours outside and learning about life. If this sounds like your family, you might like Blossom and Root. Blossom and Root is a nature focused secular homeschool curriculum focusing on creativity, science, nature, literature, and the arts. [00:04:18] Blossom and Root has been gently encouraging and supporting homeschooling families around the globe since 2016. Blossom and Root currently offers curricula for pre-K through fifth grade with new levels being added in the future. Additionally, a three volume inclusive US history curriculum told from a variety of viewpoints is currently in development as of August, 2022. [00:04:43] Volume one is available for purchase and volume two is available for presale all profits from this history curriculum. A River of voices will be used to support storytellers and artists from historically excluded communities. [00:04:57] You can find samples, scope, and [00:05:00] sequences and information about each of their levels online@blossomandroute.com. You can also find them on Instagram at Blossom and Route. Blossom and has created a special discount for our listeners. Use the code Hs. Unrefined 15 at checkout for 15%  [00:05:18] Angela: off your purchase. All right, well, today we are talking about permission and how you don't actually need our permission to do some of the things we're gonna talk about, but we think we have a five different categories of things. [00:05:31] We think that you should allow yourself the permission to. Do when you're homeschooling. Exactly.  [00:05:38] Maren: These are things we wanna actually normalize. I think that was like our alternative title, like let's normalize these things, make them so that we don't even have to  [00:05:47] Angela: feel like we have to give ourselves permission. [00:05:51] Mm-hmm. , it's just something we do. It's normal. Well, I think like a lot of times the pressures of whatever, you know, the outside world. Yes. [00:06:00] Also, like the pressures you place on yourself mm-hmm. Can be can really like, weigh on you as you are thinking about some of these things.  [00:06:08] Maren: Yes. I do think we as homeschoolers often already feel like we're kind of outside of the norm a little bit. Yeah, right. We've, we've, we say this a lot on our podcast, like we have done something kind of going against green homeschooling, . Yeah. It's different, right? [00:06:25] And so sometimes we do feel like, well, we can't go way out. Let's not go  [00:06:30] Angela: way out there and do something even. There still has to be some standards.  [00:06:33] Maren: We have to have standards. And so let's do the standards that, you know, some of the standards that everybody else does too, right? Like it just feels a little safer. [00:06:41] It feels like it's socially acceptable and so, which is great. I, and I actually think that's okay to do that sometimes too. But I also want  [00:06:51] Angela: us  [00:06:52] Maren: to. Utilize the freedom we have in, you know, homeschoolers. We get to make decisions. The [00:07:00] reason a lot of times the reason why we, you know, decide to homeschool is so that we can make different choices for our family and we can do things that are healthier and better for our kids  [00:07:10] Angela: and for us, more  [00:07:12] Maren: personalized. [00:07:13] More personalized mm-hmm. . And yet we sometimes then shrug those choices off because it feels too much at that moment.  [00:07:19] Angela: Yes. Yes, definitely. So this, you know, this, we're doing this episode intentionally at the beginning of December because, you know, we're like three months into a school year here. Most of us are taking a holiday break coming up or a winter break. [00:07:34] And so you know, we're thinking about some of these things, but we wanna make sure, you know, if you listen to this in May or February or October, it still applies. Yes, because again, you don't need our permission, but we're telling you that you can do these things. You, you should allow yourself the permission to do these things anytime,  [00:07:52] Maren: anytime, anytime. [00:07:54] And, and it's important to think about them anytime, not just during a holiday or a, [00:08:00] you know. You know, a time off or something. Right? Right. It's important to like continue to, this is a living thing, .  [00:08:07] Angela: Right. Okay. So the first thing that we wanna give you or that you should give yourself permission to do is change. [00:08:13] And that can be a lot of different things. You can change how you school. You, you are allowed to do this. You are allowed to change the big picture things like going from homeschool to online school. You are allowed to put your kids in online school. Maybe homeschool just isn't working for you right now, or you need a little bit more support or a little bit more guidance. [00:08:33] It is okay to do that. It is also okay to switch from switch in the opposite direction. It is okay. If you are doing online school, it's not working, it's okay to switch to homeschool. It's okay to also put your kids in school. It's okay to also pull your kids from school. Yes, you can. You can do that anytime you feel like it's the right thing  [00:08:55] Maren: to do. [00:08:56] And change what's right for each kid. Maybe. I know it's, for me, [00:09:00] I really value making my life easier and I, my goal has always been we're all doing the same thing because when we're all doing the same thing, then I don't have to drive four kids to four  [00:09:13] Angela: different places or whatever. But realistically,  [00:09:15] Maren: my kids all have different needs. [00:09:17] Mm-hmm. . And so I, we have made changes to Yes. Logistically it's a little bit trickier for us to get to different places. But it is so much  [00:09:27] Angela: better for  [00:09:28] Maren: everyone, for the whole family when we're all in the place and, and doing the learning  [00:09:35] Angela: that works best for all. Right. So you made changes. Yes. And I think that's pretty common. [00:09:42] I would say like when your kids are younger, it's easier for you to do things altogether or all the same. Mm-hmm. . And then as they get older and their specific styles and needs emerge. Right. And, and desires. Like we want to accommodate [00:10:00] that. So that makes sense.  [00:10:01] Maren: And even within homeschool, maybe you need to switch co-op. [00:10:05] Fine. It's okay to do that. It's great. I mean, you're, I don't ever think of change as, as negative. It's like you're getting closer and closer to the, you know, you're, you're moving in the right direction. Yeah. You  [00:10:19] Angela: know more, now you know more, more about your child and what works or doesn't work in this season or forever, whatever. [00:10:26] And so it is good. It's a change is a. Right. Or maybe you're switching  [00:10:31] Maren: from,  [00:10:31] More of a, an unschool approach to more direct teaching approach or something like that. Maybe that is just what's right for you or vice versa. Mm-hmm. , you're going to more unschooling because that's how it's working for you right now. [00:10:45] I think that's great. And then also we need to just consider. What's the style that fits your child's needs the most? Mm-hmm. , and this can change over time too, as our kids mature, as their needs change as their interests change as their, as [00:11:00] they are a learning about themselves and, and, you know, in homeschool, you, they really do get to know themselves very well. [00:11:08] They're able to do that. And, and when they're able to verbalize that and. When you know more, you do the thing that works best then, right? And so, right.  [00:11:19] Angela: So what is your kid really into, like what are they, what do they do in their free time? What it really excites them? You could just do more of that, right? [00:11:27] If that's, if that what, if that's what would make things like come alive for them. You should allow yourself to do  [00:11:34] Maren: that. Right, right, right. And the style, you know, and when I say style, I don't always even mean you know, Active versus, you know, sitting at a table. It could also just be like your child listens to audiobooks or, you know, reads more audio audiobooks than ires. [00:11:53] Mm-hmm. great. Like pick up on that. And, and you can do more of the out your child does [00:12:00] math better on an app? Mm-hmm. than sitting at, you know, doing a book. Great. Mm-hmm. awesome. Pick up on that. My child loves to bake. We spent hours in the kitchen. Mm-hmm. still do . And so I think that that is, that's all learning and that can change. [00:12:19] Like you can make more time  [00:12:20] Angela: for that. For sure. Yep. And maybe you have learned that you need to either get out of the house more mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. And go on more adventures. Or maybe you've learned definitely that you've been outta the house too much and you need more time at home. You are allowed to like make your schedule, make your routines right to fit what works for you. [00:12:40] And it's okay to do that mid-year or mm-hmm. a month into the school year or whatever it, you don't have to. Yes. Like stick with something that's not working.  [00:12:49] Maren: Exactly. Exactly. Yep. All right. Let's move on to number two. Number two is you can give yourself permission to quit. Yes. Quit a variety of things and in a [00:13:00] variety of ways. [00:13:00] You can quit permanently. Something this is, this is just not for me. It's not happening, not for my kids. You can also quit. So, Indefinitely until we're ready, . Yeah. Yeah. Until we're ready to come back, we're quitting. Mm-hmm. . Yep.  [00:13:17] Angela: So I feel like this right now, like we said at the beginning of December, so I'm sure you're thinking of a break probably. [00:13:23] Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And, you know, you might be thinking, yeah, we're taking two weeks off, we're taking three weeks off, we're taking a month off. You can, you should allow yourself to do that. You could also allow yourself to, you know, not come back till the end of January. Or whatever works for your family. [00:13:38] However much time you think everyone needs, you are not bound to this outside culture schedule. Yes. That everyone else is bound to . You know, maybe you want to do lots of out outdoor activities right now. That's fine. You can take the time to do that and then come back later for some more structure that you might, yes. [00:13:57] Yep. Yep. If you want that. [00:14:00]  [00:14:00] Maren: And quitting I think has a bad. It does. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . It feels like a fail, like failing sometimes in some ways, or it's been deemed that way  [00:14:12] Angela: by many people. Just never quitting. Never quitting is a thing.  [00:14:15] Maren: Never quit. You need to get rid of that. Right, right. Well, my kids need to learn persistence and how to, you know, work through something hard, which is true. [00:14:22] We get, you know, totally understand that. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . And then also there is this, these skills in quitting. Mm-hmm. , like understanding yourself and listening to what you. Making a plan to quit. Like you don't, maybe you don't quit cold Turkey. Like right now, we're not, we're just  [00:14:35] Angela: with this, you know, maybe we finish out the semester Yes. [00:14:40] Piano lessons because we've already committed and paid mm-hmm. , but we know at the end of December we're gonna take a break.  [00:14:47] Maren: Yep. And Okay. I'm just gonna hear, I'm just gonna tell you a quick personal story. I won't get too detailed, but like, one of my, one of my kids just quit a sport and it was it was, it was really apparent led for a long time. [00:14:59] [00:15:00] Like we were, we were just like so excited for this child to like, join anything. And so we kind of coaxed them into it. They got, they got kinda  [00:15:07] Angela: excited for a while. Yep. Yep.  [00:15:10] Maren: And then you know, mid-semester, so it wasn't even at the end of anything. But it was just, we could tell it was just not worth the fight anymore. [00:15:20] Mm. It's just not worth the fight. And this child was communicating so well to us why this wasn't working for them. Mm. Yeah. And while we tried to stick it out to the end of the semester, it really didn't, like, the cus benefit wasn't, it just wasn't. Yeah, it wasn't worth it for us. And so we made the decision to stop mid-semester gasp. [00:15:42] I know, but it was the right thing. Yeah. For this child and  [00:15:46] Angela: for our family really. I like when you talked about cost benefit. I mean, I don't love that necessarily terminology, but I like that you're saying like, what, what is the cost here for us? Yeah. You know, this child's unhappiness are having to drag them out of [00:16:00] the. [00:16:00] Yeah. Our fighting relationship,  [00:16:02] Maren: right. It was causing anxiety to, and it wasn't the kind of anxiety that like, oh, if I overcome this, it's gonna feel so good. It was, if I overcome this, I'm just gonna be bitter at my parents a little bit. Yeah. And we were like, no, this is not worth it. That's actually counterproductive to what we're actually trying to, for sure. [00:16:22] So,  [00:16:24] Angela: So good job. Thank you. Okay. Our next category or I don't know, next thing. Mm-hmm. is protect. Our next word is protect. Mm-hmm. , something that you are allowed to do is protect your child's free time. Mm. Mm-hmm. and or screen time . Yes. I think. Coming into winter. We're in winter in North America. [00:16:44] Right. So like coming into winter is a time I think when we instinctually just need a lot of downtime. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. At least I do. Okay.  [00:16:54] Maren: Especially in northern in the Northern  [00:16:57] Angela: states as I'm watching it. [00:17:00] Snow immensely outside right now. That's all I can think about.  [00:17:03] Maren: like I just wanna hibernate. Yes.  [00:17:05] Angela: I wanna hibernate. [00:17:06] Yes. And I feel like, so. We are not good at, and I say we like the collective we, and I'm talking about me as well. Mm-hmm. not good at is protecting my kids free time and downtime. Yeah. And I think that is so important and I wish I had done a better job of that when my kids were little. I did get better as they got older. [00:17:23] Oh yeah. But I think that downtime where their minds can wander, they can do the thing they're excited about, they can have a chance to explore new things that they maybe don't know if they're interested in. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. that only happens with. Huge blocks of free time. That's so true. You are allowed to protect that for your child and not cram in all the different subjects. [00:17:47] Exactly. Because are all those different subjects more important than free time? I don't know. I don't think so. Right. And are  [00:17:53] Maren: they actually getting learned when you're cramming them in anyway? Yeah. Is the learning actually happening? Mm-hmm. , you're [00:18:00] getting things done. But that does not guarantee any sort of like internal long term learning. [00:18:10] Angela: You're not. That's how I remember a an episode we did like three years ago or four years ago, I don't remember, was about like how we don't choose what our kids. Yes. Make meaning out of or like Yes. Yes. Like we can put the information in front of them. Yep. But we don't get to decide like what stays in their head or what they choose to make meaning from. [00:18:29] Right. That's like something that they're doing or something that happens within them. So just because you're cramming in six subjects or whatever, I'm, I'm not saying you're doing that, that's extreme, but whatever. That doesn't mean that they're learning all of that, but exactly what they're, they are learning when they're at, when they're, when they have. [00:18:46] They are learning because they're choosing what they're doing. They're excited about it, they're into it. They're motivated by it. We know for sure that they're learning that.  [00:18:57] Maren: Yep. They, it's the best kind of learning and yeah, it's [00:19:00] the most internal learning and long-term learning. And the only part of that that's tough for parents is that you probably aren't choosing the topic. [00:19:11] But let me tell you, so. Let me give you a peace of mind here. It's not always about the topic. , when it comes to learning the topic is almost irrelevant. It's the practice of learning. The habit of thinking. Mm-hmm. that is happening. Mm-hmm. during that free time. Mm-hmm. , it's the processing. Mm-hmm. , they are learning how to learn. [00:19:35] Mm-hmm. and they are loving it. So they're associating learning. Positive vibes. Positive feelings, for sure. For sure. And so they are going to continue that habit. Mm-hmm. of learning, of asking questions, of figuring out the answer. All these things, they are going to keep doing that the, their rest of their lives. [00:19:56] Mm-hmm. , if they have that time to do it now and they're having [00:20:00] positive experiences. Yes. So give yourself all the credit for all the learning you're you and your kids are doing in their  [00:20:08] Angela: free time. Give your kids all the credit. . Yeah. Yeah. I also, I know we briefly touched on it, I wanna say protect screen time and mm-hmm. [00:20:16] I know this is controversial, but I'm just gonna say like, I think. A lot of screen time is really, really valuable and really important. My kids learn a lot through screen time. Mm-hmm. now my kids are older, but I have to say, like my son, for example watches a lot of YouTube videos that are about, I don't even know the category. [00:20:35] Geography. Yeah. Yeah. I think geography. Yes. And like politics happening within the different, like Oh totally. Countries or whatever. This is what he does for hours. He does this for hours. That's amazing because I love to see it. I'm like, yes, yes, yes, you should do that. I am doing it wanting to squander that at all. [00:20:55] Cuz he is deep diving into a subject that is interesting to him and he is learning a [00:21:00] lot by doing those deep dives. Right. I have to  [00:21:02] Maren: say my son is doing the same thing really about you. Oh, okay. We should talk about that together. Yeah. Two of 'em, because they probably love to talk about that, so, yeah. [00:21:12] That's great. Yeah. And, and they can, you know, watch YouTube videos together. I think that's so, so great.  [00:21:19] Angela: Yeah. I mean, and I do not wanna stop that. I do not wanna put a limit on that and say, oh, you need to turn that up. I know sometimes we need to, but I like, I know that his excitement and passion for this is so great right now. [00:21:32] Yes. And I am not stopping. Totally.  [00:21:34] Maren: I also, I wanna piggyback on that. My oldest is learning all about the history of Iran right now. All on her, all on her own, and the, and all of the, the, just the you know, women's rights and all that stuff, just. Just doing all the research all the time on that and comes to us and tells us all these facts and things, and I'm like, that's amazing. [00:21:57] Had we  [00:21:57] Angela: limited  [00:21:59] Maren: mm-hmm. That [00:22:00] time, it just wouldn't happen. So, you know, it's just amazing. And then I have one child who's just doing art all the time. Mm-hmm. on their screen, on their iPad, just it's art. It's this art app. Pen, you  [00:22:12] Angela: know, like  [00:22:13] Maren: a mm-hmm. . Yeah. So it's, and it's amazing stuff. It's like amazing stuff. [00:22:19] Yeah. And I just think, well, why,  [00:22:21] Angela: why would I like squander that,  [00:22:22] Maren: that mm-hmm. excitement for that thing, so. All right. Number four is trust. Trust your gut. Trust your gut on things. Mm-hmm. Trust  [00:22:31] Angela: yourself. Mm-hmm. and trust your. Say too. Yes. Yeah. You are allowed to do that because you know, like we always say, you know, you yourself and your family the best, right? [00:22:41] Mm-hmm. , and we know as parents, you have a gut feeling of if a thing is working or not. If we need to do more of something, if we need to do less of something, if we should change something up, like where's the. The excitement for our kids, and you know that, you know that better than any expert, right? Or, you know, grandparent or like friend [00:23:00] who's a teacher. [00:23:00] You, you know that for your kids and your family. You need to trust that.  [00:23:05] Maren: Yes, and I think there is like a good. I think it's great to do a little research if you need to or whatever, do what you need to do, but also don't overdo that. Like I think about it when, you know when our kids are sick or something and then we Google something and then, you know, suddenly we think they, you know, have a terminal illness or something because of the Google results. [00:23:24] Yeah, yeah. It just brings us to this very scary place when really our gut instincts is like, you know, I should just, you know, sometimes we have to just listen to our gut and be like, I should just. My child to the doctor or not. Yeah. What it's usually the right thing. Whatever your gut is about that is probably the right thing. [00:23:43] Bring to the doctor or don't, or whatever, you know? Mm-hmm. . And I think, I think it, it's the same thing with homeschooling. Like, just trust your gut. What do you, what do you see and notice and experience with your kids?  [00:23:56] Angela: Mm-hmm. , you have so much  [00:23:58] Maren: information [00:24:00] that is intangible that nobody  [00:24:02] Angela: else will be able  [00:24:04] Maren: to. [00:24:05] Will never know those things. Mm-hmm. and only you do .  [00:24:09] Angela: Yeah. Trust it for sure. I love that. Mm-hmm. . Okay. Our last one is say yes, you have permission to say yes. I think a lot of times us included talk about saying no and taking stuff off of our plate. And we also want to tell you that you are allowed to add more things or say yes more often when your kids are asking you to, if that is what you want to do. [00:24:35] And if that works for you, you are allowed to do that. You're allowed to. You know, have a fun adventure. One day you're allowed to have a mental health day. You know, you're allowed to play games together that day. You're allowed to do whatever it is that is going to bring joy to your homeschool. [00:24:56] You're allowed to do that. You're allowed to go off for ice cream. You're allowed to get coffee in the morning. [00:25:00] Whatever you need to inject a little passion is what you should.  [00:25:05] Maren: Yes. Exactly. And a lot of times your kids will be the ones to let you know. There's something like, mom, can we do this today? [00:25:14] Mm-hmm. , I mean, I would listen to that. Mm-hmm. , maybe it's not a yes, but maybe there's something that you can, that you can say yes to around that. Mm-hmm. . But it might just be a little indicator that there's something that you could do. Yeah. For sure.  [00:25:28] Angela: All right. All right. We hope that was, That was kind of, this is like our favorite thing to talk about. [00:25:35] Yeah. We, we could talk forever. We had to coach ourselves to not talk so much. So. Yep. Exactly. Hope that was helpful for you. All right, let's move on to our loving this week. Okay. Marron what? Loving this week. All right.  [00:25:48] Maren: I'm loving a movie. It actually came out last. Holiday season, it's called Love Hard. [00:25:54] Okay. It's on Netflix. It is a pretty cheesy romcom, [00:26:00] actually but it is just, it's just such a great movie to sit down, curl up the blanket and enjoy brainless, basically. But it's so much fun, you know, it's like you don't have to think about it at all. You can just like eat it up like candy.  [00:26:15] Angela: Mm-hmm. . So this is about, I'm trying to remember, cause I did watch this last year and I loved it. [00:26:20] So if you're looking for a good holiday flick, this could be Yes. The, you know, like comfort flick you wanted? Yes. It, it  [00:26:28] Maren: just says it's an la Okay. I'll just read it quick. An LA girl, this is from imdb.com. An LA girl, unlucky in Love falls for an East coast guy on a dating app. Yeah. And decides to surprise him for the holidays. [00:26:40] Only to discover that she's  [00:26:42] Angela: been catfished. Yeah, she catfishing. Ok. Yeah.  [00:26:46] Maren: Yes. So it's very lighthearted and fun. And actually I just, I enjoyed it probably more this year than I did last year. I watched it again. Awesome. And I watched it with some of my kids. It does say TV A but [00:27:00] I would say it's probably more like PG 13, to be honest. [00:27:03] Yeah.  [00:27:03] Angela: It's like a PG 13. That's what it feels like to me. Yeah. There's no like, [00:27:07] Maren: No rated R stuff. No, I wouldn't, I don't think so. There's probably some swearing I would  [00:27:12] get.  [00:27:12] Angela: I think that's what it's, yeah. Yes. Alright. Thanks for sharing that. All right, Angela, what do you loving this week? I also have a movie, . Okay, great. Love it. This is called Glass Onion, A Knives Out story. Yay. [00:27:26] Yay. So this is basically knives. If you saw knives Out. Wow. Like two years ago,  [00:27:32] Maren: Martin, was that two? Oh, you know it's been three. It's been three. It was 2019. Wow.  [00:27:37] Angela: Yeah. Okay. Well if you haven't seen the first Knives out, you should definitely see that this is the second Knives out. We sat in the theater with family. [00:27:44] This is perfect. If you have, I would say teens or even. Between and up. Because it's like, it's a murder mystery, right? That's what it is. Mm-hmm. . But it's done in this a really fun, in innovative new way. It's also, okay. So [00:28:00] there's the only continuing character from the first Knives out movie is the Detective Daniel Craig. [00:28:06] He's the same. Okay. Otherwise they have a whole new cast of characters. Wow. And they're all. People, you know. Oh, you know, all kind of coming together. Playing kinda  [00:28:16] Maren: the last one  [00:28:16] Angela: too. A new funny. Yeah. These funny characters. These like unique characters. This Kate Hudson and Oh, fun. Yeah. You know, . Okay, I should have looked this up. [00:28:26] You know, the guy from Hamilton, the good singer. Okay. You  [00:28:30] Maren: know? Yes. Okay. I'm gonna look it up. Oh, Janelle, Moe. Yeah. Is in here. Leslie Oum Jr.  [00:28:37] Angela: Leslie oum Jr. [00:28:38] Thank you. Like I knew it term with an L. Yep. Okay. Anyway, and what I liked about it, which I think like could have been done poorly, but they did it right, was they talked about the pandemic. It's like said in the pandemic. That's great. And so there's like funny references to it that we can laugh about a little bit, little bit. [00:28:59] Right. Like  [00:28:59] Maren: [00:29:00] fun. Yes, exactly. And we can process through it. Yes.  [00:29:02] Angela: Yes. . So I actually, I liked that it was like, it was good to see that . Okay, great. So I think I think it's just a good time. And I heard it's coming to Netflix in like a few weeks  [00:29:13] Maren: very soon. Yeah. It was just out in theaters for a short time, so I'm glad you got to see it. [00:29:17] We really wanted to, but it didn't work out. So I'm really looking forward to this.  [00:29:21] Angela: All right. Thank you everybody for being here. [00:29:23] Thank you to our three sponsors, blossom and Ru Out School and Night Zoo Zookeeper. Be sure to check out their links in our show notes. [00:29:31] Maren: This podcast is created and hosted by Angela Sizer and Marrin Goerss. . We are listeners supported to get extra content and the Back to School Summit free with your membership. Go to patreon.com/homeschool unrefined. Subscribe to our newsletter and get our free top 100 inclusive booklist@homeschoolunrefined.com slash new. [00:29:55] You can find Mar on Instagram at unrefined and at Always [00:30:00] Learning with Mar. Find Angela at Unrefined. Angela. [00:30:04] 

Angela Ocampo is an intuitive guide, Curandera in training, ancestral wisdom keeper, healer, writer, and old soul. She is devoted to activating, facilitating, and opening portals for others to remember the truths and medicine that lie within us. Through intuitive channeling, energy work, ritual, ancestral healing, Earth medicine, shadow love, and embodiment, Angela works to help others explore and reclaim the forgotten divine parts of the self, including peace, mysticism, ancestral gifts, power, light, and liberation. This episode we exploreSitting with the truth of combined colonized and colonizer ancestryUsing ancestral remembrance to unearth the ancient wisdom that lies within you Using embodied grounding tools Connecting to the body as a source of power Episode Resourceshttps://www.instagram.com/iamangelajo/https://www.subscribepage.com/ancestralconnectionDecolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body LiberationBali Retreat March 19-25 2023I was raised in a super conservative, slightly fundamentalist Christian situation and over the last five years or so, it has brought me so much joy to pursue traditional spiritual practices that are more connected to my ancestry and that aren't directly connected to colonization and the transatlantic slave trade that said there's a lot of resistance in my part of the world anyway, to ancestor veneration or ancestor worship or ancestor remembrance practices. I have found that while ancestor veneration exists all over the world, people's understanding of it really varies from culture to culture and from person to person, quite frankly, whether or not people actually believe their ancestors can hear them and are directly responding to them, whether people see their ancestors as intermediaries between people who are living and actual deities, or whether people think it's just something that you do that is deeply embedded in the culture and that it is good for you psychologically to remember the people that came before you, but no one can actually hear you. So it certainly varies, but I personally I've gotten so much comfort and joy from exploring ancestor veneration that I'm thrilled to have Angela Ocampo with us today who's going to introduce us to ancestor remembrance practices. Angela is coming to us from an indigenous Colombian perspective. And she is going to share with us, her understanding ofancestor remembrancee practices. The value that it’s had in her life and the healing potential that it has. Angela is an intuitive and uses embodiment work and dancing to reconnect people to their own intuition and to their own truth. A lot of times when you feel like you don't know which way to go in life and what's up and what's down. The truth is you do know, but you no longer are feeling confident in acknowledging what you know intuitively and you're seeking ways to validate or prove your opinions rather than just feeling them and going with them. So one of Angela's gifts is helping people get around that feeling of stuckness. So this is an excellent episode. Near the latter portion of the episode, Angela even shares a short meditation with us. So when you get to that section, you're going to want to make sure you're not driving. And that you're in a position where it's going to be safe to get a little relaxed and comfortable. And even though the meditation is brief, don't worry Angela's website is up now and you can visit https://www.angelaocampo.com/ and get a longer version of that meditation. I also have a pretty exciting announcement. I will be hosting my first ever in-person retreat in Bali next March. So that'll be spring break for a lot of people. So hopefully you have that time off and you'll be able to join us as well. There are a lot of exciting excursions planned its going to be focused on teaching you to relax your nervous system and to recover more quickly from any of the stressors you might encounter at home or at work. And for you to really develop recovery practices so that while you're feeling totally relapsed, Totally calm, totally at home in your body, on the trip. You don't have to worry that when you go back home when you fight your way through the airport, you'll completely lose all of that peace. No, you'll be going home with recovery practices. So you can keep returning to that sense of calm so that your nervous system. can stay in the zone that it's meant to be in. We're not meant to constantly be keyed up, stressed out, clenching your teeth, waiting for the other shoe to drop. So it's going to be a wonderful week. It is very far away if you live on the east coast of the us, but I know it's going to be so beautiful and so refreshing. There'll be more details to come. But if you are super excited about the idea of actually hanging out in a wellness space, that's centered on people of color and queer folks and you want to go ahead and check it out and put your deposit in, just visit https://www.daliakinsey.com/retreat, and you'll see the details there. Al right. Let's get on into today's episode. Body Liberation for All ThemeYeah. They might try to put you in a box, tell them that you don't accept when the world is tripping out tell them that you love yourself. Hey, Hey, smile on them live your life just like you like it is.It’s your party negativity is not invited. For my queer folks, for my trans, people of color, let your voice be heard. Look in the mirror and say that it's time to put me first. You born to win. Head up high with confidence.  This show is for everyone. So, I thank you for tuning in. Let's go.Dalia: Hi, Angela. Thank you so much for coming on.Angela: Hi, thank you so much for having me.Dalia: When I got your email, I signed up for it and listened to the meditation for connecting to your ancestors. I immediately thought people needed to know about this and needed to hear about the work that you're doing.Dalia: Let's start with, what are your marginalized identities and what does connecting to your ancestors mean for you?Angela: Yeah. So I am, a cisgender woman. I'm heterosexual as well. I come from Columbia, I'm a woman of color. I also have indigenous ancestry. So for me, it has been kind of like a rediscovery journey to meet with my ancestors and connect with them. Because my indigenous ancestry was colonized, a lot of their culture was taken away from them.Angela: And so a lot of the things weren't passed down to, to my family, to my lineage. So I think there was always a disconnect for me where I felt called, you know, to be on the earth and be outside. But I, I just didn't know why. And maybe like a little bit of stories from my family was passed down, but I, I just always felt called.Angela: So when I found ancestral work, I just felt into my body. This is what I need. As, as someone who, you know, was on a spiritual journey anyway, I was always somewhat of a seeker I always wanna find out the truth and just go deep.Angela: So ancestral healing has, has been able to connect me again with like my roots and where I come from. And it creates this sense of belonging. And it creates a sense of just peace in a way, because you are You are discovering who, who you really are, what is your blood?Angela: And you're creating these pathways of remembrance. And that will not only help you, but it's gonna help the generations that come after you.Dalia: Now that's fascinating because almost all of us are descendants of people who were colonized. When you look at how much of the planet was colonized it is mind boggling.Dalia: As their children, we are both descendants of the colonized and the colonizer.Dalia: Did you feel any sort of conflict around that when you connect to your ancestors, do you feel like you belong to them, but you don't feel called to connect to colonizer ancestors?Angela: Yeah. That is a duality that I have been facing. Right. It's it's a confronting duality. And I think I pushed it away for so long. I only wanted to see, yeah, yeah I have indigenous blood, but then that was like the other side, like I needed to face it because that is part of me.Angela: And so I do feel like before I felt more resistance to it and I feel that for, for some reason I have a really strong connection to my indigenous ancestry more it's probably because the stories that I know are mostly from that side of the family. And I feel that the more that I connect with that side I'm opening up the pathway of connecting to that other side, who is the colonizer.Angela: And I feel there's a sense of kind of like reclamation. And I do feel It's kind of confronting because the colonizer had, you know, they didn't have great intentions, you know, there was violence and there was just a lot of harmful things to, to our colonized ancestors.Angela: So I think approaching it in a way where it's it's intentionally saying to, to the energies, like, I wanna connect with the ancestors who have divine intentions and that in a way already sets like the boundaries and knowing that, you know, when people cross over, they. They tend to, you know, like it's, it's a clearing, right?Angela: That they have like kind of like the karma falls down and, and they, they could become pure, but at the same time, some people don't like some, some, some souls, you know, get stuck or so I feel that it's important, even when. When I do get to that point about my social remembrance journey to connect with the colonizer side, to know that I have protection over my own energy.Angela: I have protection of what I live in and I can choose to connect to the good side of them because I like to believe that there was some good in them regardless, and, you know, they did horrible things, but they're still part of me. So I have to like come to terms with that as well.Dalia: I like that framing and that you can set a boundary for what type of energy you want to draw in and which ancestors you want to hear from.Angela: I think that that's helpful to know too, because I think ancestral healing is sometimes it, it can be scary for people because of the fact that a lot of us have ancestors who weren't, you know, the most pure people on the earth, right? Like they, they probably did a lot of harmful things and and so it can, it can bring up a lot.Angela: And that's why I'm also a huge advocate while doing ancestral healing work to have some sort of tools that ground you and that will help, you know, clear any energy that is moving through you because a lot of it can be confronting, especially if you're just new to it. And so that's like, tools basically like dancing I love dancing and it connects me to my ancestors as well.Angela: And so anything that, that allows you to release anything that may come up. I believe our bodies hold so much wisdom and our bodies have our ancestors' blood. So I really love working with the body to, to come to a neutralized point of when you're doing that ancestral work, cuz a lot can come up for sure.Dalia: Would you say that the greatest tool that you have for connecting to your ancestors is your own body?Angela: I actually, I do believe that because I like to believe that I'm very in tune with my body and I think everyone can get there. I think society kind of programs us into thinking like, oh, we're so disconnected or our intuition is, is wrong.Angela: But really like, as, as if you're being, when you came to this earth, like you. As a baby, like you, you knew what your body needed and that's why you like cried and you were hungry. Ever since we come out out of the womb, like we are very in tune with our bodies and it's just that programming and conditioning that disconnects us.Angela: The oppressor wants us to be disconnected from our bodies because that is how we lose our power. So I believe getting into our bodies and using it as a tool for ancestor work is a way that we take our power back. And I feel that also meditation, like going through deep meditations allows me to use my body to kind of just like spark that, that like connection.Angela: Like I mentioned, it brings, it has so much wisdom sometimes. I like I'm in, I'm in nature or like, I listen to a song and like, I feel it, and my body, like this deep, like a tingling sensation. It's, it's not something that my mind can really like give a meaning to, but it's like my body knows first.Angela: Right. I feel too that because our soul is, is connected to our body. It it's like holding our body. The body is one of the, the greatest allies, because it speaks directly. Like it doesn't allow the mind, the mind that allows, that sometimes tells us that we're overthinking it, or, you know, it puts like doubts in our head.Angela: I think the body comes from a place of pureness.Dalia: Hmm. I love that framing because my first thought was, well, how do you know that you can connect to your ancestors? So my first reaction was how do we process this intellectually? How do we know that we can even do this? And that ancestral work is something that we can all access. Because when you don't have access to a lot of the traditions that your ancestors practiced.Dalia: I know, sometimes you feel anxiety around, like, am I doing this correctly? Can I recreate traditions that are lost? But what is your take on that? I would imagine that if the body is the guide, then there are many ways, even if you don't have any way to know the exact traditions that were used, that there are many ways to tap into this power.Angela: Correct. Yeah. I, I believe our intuition is our biggest guide. And the body, like the body, what it feels the sensations. So for anyone that doesn't have access to, you know, who your ancestors were, I say, the first thing is like, what do you feel inclined to? That is the first thing that you wanna attempt into. A lot of us have, we love things that don't have.Angela: Maybe we just don't realize like why we love what that certain thing, but we just do. So like tapping into that because we we hold so much wisdom that we might not be conscious of, but sometimes we're just drawn to things. So I would say for those people that don't have accesses to really lean into what you're drawn to, what calls your attention and really experiment, right?Angela: If, if you know, for example, if you know, you, you have ancestry from Africa, start listening to some African music. What are you called to, there's just so much music that you, that you can tap into and there's different kinds. So like start tapping into that. Maybe seek out some recipes and start seeing like what you really love, what you don't really like.Angela: And, and maybe like seeing maybe if you really love a dish or a certain song, like start researching the roots, where does it come from? Who are the artists that created it? So I think we can really use our intuition to see what we're naturally drawn to, because again, our ancestors are in our blood they're even if we're not conscious of it, they're guiding us and they're speaking through us.Angela: Even if it seems like we're, we're not, we're not in communication with them. They're always trying to, to tap in. So that's what I would recommend to start like diving in for sure.Dalia: I love that- so approachable. When you say the ancestors always speaking through us and guiding us, does that communication go in both directions?Dalia: Do you think it matters how you live your life as far as resolving previous hurts that maybe your ancestors weren't able to resolve in their lifetime?Angela: Yeah. So yes, I think it is, it is both ways. I actually believe in calling them in intentionally and that is how I started on my journey I did a meditation that kind of like opened up the portal for me.Angela: And from there, I just started to call them in and speak to them, pray to them. It's like another relationship, it has to be nourished. It takes some work to, to, to let them in, like you have free will as a human. So they're not going to just be like, Hey, you know, and barge in on you.Angela: You have to open up that door and you have to open up the lines of communication. If you wanna have consciously a relationship with them. And so in terms of like healing, the wounding, I think it's, it's gonna be definitely a journey and it's not gonna happen overnight.Angela: I think it's, it's something that if you feel called to ancestral work, this is definitely like you were chosen by your ancestors because they're. There are things and, and resources that they didn't have in order to heal. And now, as a, as a generation that has a ton of resources, you know, we have resources to therapy to just reeducation.Angela: I feel Google is just a resource on its own. We're also coming into this time of, of awakening just as a society, as a collective and as a wanting to also liberation, especially for BIPOC people. And so I think. That's why so many people have been wanting to connect with the ancestors because they know that they will give them the strength and the wisdom and the guidance that they need to heal those woundings that have permeated so much of their familial lineage. I think that's why we crave that connection, because again, it gives us a sense of belonging. It gives us a sense of strength and a wisdom that, that maybe, you know, if, if you're just starting your spiritual journey or like your reclamation journey maybe you haven't found it anywhere else.Angela: And I feel like ancestors give you just. Very grounded and, you know, they come from the earth, right? So they give you a very grounded wisdom and strength. And so I really believe yeah, that, that they support you on healing, that those booming, and we can definitely call them in and call their energy in it simply starts by opening yourself up to that, to that relationship.Dalia: Have you learned any of the names of your ancestors? Did you do a combination of trying to call them in and accessing information you could find about them?Angela: Yeah, so I actually have a spirit guide. Spirit guides for me are just a team of souls of spiritual souls that, that protect me and support me.Angela: And so we all have this, we all have a team. And so sometimes we have ancestors who are also our spirit guides. So I have one her name is Esmeralda and she is my ancestor from a very long time ago. So from the indigenous lineage and I met her through going through a meditation and wanting to meet other people in my spirit team.Angela: I had already met a few of them, but I knew I had a feeling that there was an, a sister there and I really wanted to tap into her energy. So, so that's how I met her. And other than that I've been doing also research. I actually just found out where my grandma from my mom's side was born was the land that she was born on.Angela: And she's the one that carries that, that indigenous blood. And so I was doing some research on the plants or just like anything, anything that I could find to connect me. So I'm actively trying to find more names. Sometimes I do get like, when I'm doing deep meditations or just like breathwork, breathwork is really great too in taking you really deep.Angela: Sometimes I don't even go intentionally trying to meet with my ancestors. They just find a way to, to enter because I have this open portal for them and they're welcome to come into my energy. So, so I have encounters with them like that.Angela: And I've, I've been able to get some, I can't remember now the exact name, but I, they do have very tribal indigenous names. And so it's been really healing and just also very empowering and, and beautiful to, to have those experiences with them and, and kind of like see a part of myself reflected in them.Dalia: So that brings up a couple of questions for me. I had wondered how do you get into that deeper meditative state? When you say breath work, what does that mean?Angela: Yeah, so breathwork is is just, it's another modality. There are breathwork practitioners. So it's it's I do it like that. Breathwork where you're taking three breaths. So you take the first breath taking an air from your belly, then your chest, and out through your mouth. And it takes you into a very meditative state.Angela: You just kind of get out of your head. And so these processes are usually around 30 to an hour. And so. There are breathwork tracks online that you can try. I found some on YouTube and I also have friends who are breathwork practitioners who, who use this service as a healing modality. So I recommend that because it's really powerful and using our breath to really get into our bodies and get out of our heads. And it's also a very healing modality for also any trauma that you have experienced. So I really I'm a fan of breath work and in terms of another modality that I really love any deep meditation. I find them on YouTube.Angela: For people that are maybe just starting out, maybe a guided meditation would be the best way to just, you know, maybe not, not one with a lot of words or just something to get you in the deep like relaxed state. And I think before you go to bed is like one of the best things, maybe like creating like a little nighttime routine. Yeah, maybe sitting at the edge of your bed before going to sleep. I think the nighttime is like a really good time to, to take advantage of just like your body is already getting into a meditative state because sleep is a meditative state.Angela: And even saying like a prayer. Call in your ancestors before you go to sleep and invite them into your dreams. Cause they can come into your dreams and kind of just do the work for you. You don't really have to do a meditation. Those are three ways that I would recommend to, to go into a deep meditative state.Dalia: When you're looking online for meditations how can you tell the difference between one that will take you deeper and maybe something that's more superficial, or what is the opposite of a deep meditation?Angela: Yeah, I personally don't like the ones that are short, the ones that are just like five to 10 min 10 minutes, because I feel like I need more time to, to really dive in.Angela: So the, the longer ones that have they usually have the music like singing bowls . So I think those, so I would look for ones that are around.Angela: I would say at least 25 minutes. Because that really allows you to give your mind time, to really soak, soak it and, and, and sit into that meditation. And so that's what I look for. And I look for ones that. I don't have so much of words, so many. I, I like to kind of go on my own and I like to create my own imagery in my head.Angela: But if people do like the guided ones, if that works better for you, then, then that's something that you can do. Just anything that maybe takes you into a relaxed day that creates some peace would be helpful.Dalia: Can you describe your concept of the afterlife? when you are calling the ancestors, what do you imagine they're doing? Are they not going to move on to some other place or some other thing? Where are they?Angela: Yeah. So that's a really great question. So I think when people move on into the afterlife, they become an infinite kind of energy. So they can really be everywhere at once. So I believe that they, they come into the energy that when they are invited into the energy. Once I really started to, okay, I'm going through a spiritual awakening and I'm really gonna dedicate myself to it.Angela: And once I made that decision, that's when. All the ancestral healing just like, started to, like, I started seeing it's just coming everywhere. And so it was signs, right? I think as soon as I opened myself up to they started to enter my energy space.Angela: When I call them in, because I know that they can be everywhere at once. They're just kind of like there, but when they, when I call on them I can feel them. Because I am so tuned into that. That's how I view what happens to a soul after and afterlife.Angela: It's about that opening being open to, to know that their energy is infinite. Hmm.Dalia: Now the people that are around you or the spirits that are around you that are a team that guide you, are they all blood relatives or can you have no children while you're here and end up as an ancestor.Angela: For me, it's it's mostly my family, but I, I tend to connect mostly with my. The ancestors that lived a very long time ago. So the indigenous ancestors I can connect with with the people that let's say my grandma from one generation ago, but I, I feel that. The I'm for some reason, I feel very connected to the indigenous part and that's probably cuz something in me wants to be activated through that.Angela: My work usually involves the family, like the, the blood relatives, but I have heard other. Other people that do ancestral work and ancestral remembrance that also consider the people that steward their land like ancestors or just people that were close to the family. So it doesn't necessarily have to be blood relatives.Angela: I do know other people that are considered ancestors that are exactly related to blood. So I think it's really anyone that you, that you, that you or your family, or just anything that, that was surrounding that you felt very connected to. I think a big thing is also like the ancestors of the land.Angela: I would definitely consider, you know, the people that steward the land that I stand on as ancestors, because they took care of our land and they, we have this place to live because of them.Angela: And so I think it's like an emotional connection there. I think ancestors don't have to be necessarily blood it just needs to have a connection. Like what connection do you have there with them?Dalia: You mentioned that you do readings for people. Can you describe your gifts to us more and how you use them to help other people and to guide you in how you live your life?Angela: Yeah, so I connect with the energies around you. So I can connect to your spirit guides. I can connect to your ancestor lineage or through mediumship or an a past ancestor. I can also connect to your highest self, your soul. I use this as a way to kind of gain clarity for people so people come to me when they're not sure, they're kind of like a little bit in their heads and, and they feel kind of disconnected, they're not sure if they're the right path or how to really embody more of their soul.Angela: I use my gifts to tap into their spiritual team and to give them the guidance right from a pure place, from a place that knows them all and, and supports them in everything. A lot of the time the, the spirits are funny because, or just like the spiritual realm, because they tend to like lead you back to yourself.Angela: It's kind of like, you know the answer and you have the answers inside of you, but they do try to, you know, give you the, the clarity and the direction that you need to find a way. So I feel like the, that journey, they always seem to have this saying where it's kind of like you are right here right now for purpose and this obstacle, this challenge that you're going through right now it's taking you to where you need to go. It's kind of like the journey is needed here so you can get to your highest self , to your true self and to your most pure self, to your most whole self.Angela: So that is what I do in my readings. I go with the intention of the client, what they need if they're going through a transition or if they really wanna reconnect with, you know, their lineage. So we go in there and we get as much information as we can to really give them that clarity and also the comfort in knowing that they are supported.Angela: And they're actually a pure being that has so much guidance available to them.Dalia: That sounds incredible. I know today you came prepared to offer us a little entry point into a meditation or having an ancestral remembrance practice. Can you introduce us to that?Angela: Yes. Yeah. Okay. Perfect. Okay. So. Let's dive right in.Angela: So if you can I invite you to close your eyes. If you can't close your eyes, just simply focus on a certain spot around you. And I want you to invite you to go ahead and take three deep breaths.Angela: And when you exhale, I want you to make a sigh or make an audible sound.Angela: Alright now, I'm gonna invite you to go ahead and just move your body the way that it wants to just give yourself a little wiggle. Maybe you have some tight spots. Maybe you've just been sitting after a long day. Just give yourself some movement so we can really get into the body and allow spirit to move through us.Angela: When you're ready, I want you to go ahead and just place your hands, wherever it feels right. So maybe, maybe on your heart, maybe on your stomach, maybe on your legs, whatever makes you feel most comfortable. And I want you to go ahead and imagine a white light coming in from the crown of your head all the way down to your toes.Angela: So you're gonna imagine it slowly cleansing your entire body. So going through your throat, going through your heart, through your stomach, through your legs, and exiting out through your toes.Angela: And from here, I want you to imagine a yellow golden light right in the middle of your eyebrows. And this is where your third eye lies, this is where your intuition lies, and you're gonna notice this light just permeating your entire forehead, then you're gonna see it extend out into your body. And now to the surroundings, and you are gonna see it extend out as far as you can imagine out into the earth.Angela: And as you see it connect to the earth, you're going to thank the earth just internally for her healing presence for supporting you and supporting your lineage and activating this connection that we're about to embark on.Angela: And now that the earth has reflected this beautiful energy back into your aura. You're gonna see this light coming back into your surroundings, coming back into your body, coming back into your aura, and coming back into your third eye.Angela: And now I'm gonna invite you to do a prayer, to call in your ancestors. So you can repeat this prayer internally or externally. Do whatever feels right. Whatever feels right is perfect. So we're gonna go ahead and say, I invite in my ancestors right now. I call in their presence. I call in their guidance. I call in their strength.Angela: I call in their wisdom.Angela: I invite the ancestors with divine intention to make contact with me in the way that they know they can. I open up myself to receive their wisdom and their guidance and any moment that is available to me.Angela: I trust that I am supported and guided by my ancestors, who long to make connection with me. And I open myself up to receive their magic.Angela: And just let that permeate every inch of your being.Angela: And now I invite you to simply say, thank you. Thank you for this moment. Thank you to your ancestors for bringing you here. In this moment for giving you what you have for giving you the wisdom and the strength to make it to where you are today.Angela: And now from here, you can trust that this relationship with your ancestors is officially opened. As you have opened up your heart to them and to receive their guidance.Angela: Alright. So we're gonna just go ahead and quickly close by taking another, just three deep breaths. And remember to just make a sound to just let out any energy that might have moved through when you exhale.Angela: Alright. When you're ready, just go ahead and open your eyes and come back into the space.Dalia: Thank you so much for that.Angela: You're welcome.Dalia: You mentioned you're welcomed that dancing could be a way to ground yourself. Can you give us a couple of other things that can ground you?Angela: Yes. So I do have some tools in my toolbox, so I really love just simply breathing. Like we just did the breathing, filling up your belly and bringing it up to your chest and, and exhaling with a sound has been so grounding for me, especially because I noticed that throughout the day my breath is very shallow.Angela: And so really taking the moment to just let the breath fill my body up with life is one, one beautiful way to ground yourself. And especially if you find yourself in triggering moments breath bringing your attention back into the breath is, is really grounding. Another thing for me, I, I also recommend music, music, especially something that, that is tied to your ancestral lineage.Angela: So anything that, that kind of just reminds you of home is, is something that I love to. To just, you know, put everything away and just kind of like sit in my bed and listen to music. I feel so grounded in that as well as nature. Nature is a natural resource. If you don't live in the city, you can just go outside and just be like on the grass. Taking off your shoes and putting your your feet on the earth is, is incredibly healing because you're taking in that the Earth's frequency. So those are like my few favorite ways. I also obviously like meditation as well, and just sitting in silence and noticing, you know, I think people have the misconception that meditation is about clearing your mind. I really just like to, to use it as a way for self self-awareness when I'm just doing meditations by myself. because it just allows me to drop in. Okay. Like what's in my head right now.Angela: How can I bring myself back to center? And it just kind of creates this again, this relationship with myself. So those are like a few of my tools to get grounded.Dalia: that is so helpful. Where can people find you if they'd like to learn more or wanna know how to work with you? Yeah, so I hang out a lot on Instagram.Angela: My Instagram handle is @iamangelajo. It stands for my middle name. And then I am working on my website. I don't ha I don't have website currently, but on Instagram you can find any links and, and you can find out how to work me, work with me there.Dalia: Perfect. Thank you so much. Angela: Thank you so much for having me.I hope you enjoyed that and that you will take out the time to connect with Angela's work. If you are still on Instagram, check her out there, or you can just jump on her mailing list, visit her site and grab that meditation. I loved the invitation to the ancestors to connect and that she included that prayer for us really resonated to me and felt really helpful. You would think when it comes to spiritual things, we wouldn't be worried about doing things the right way all the time or thinking that things need to be prescribed. But a lot of the religious traditions that we have grown up with are very prescribed and they don't feel accessible. And there was generally another person there to tell you precisely how things should go or someone who serves as an intermediary. So it is a little bit of a reach sometimes when you start exploring spiritual practices that are more independent. And that actually allow you more freedom. Sometimes you get freedom at you don't know exactly what to do with it. So I really appreciate that she modeled that for us. And that she offered such a simple entry point to starting to explore ancestor remembrance practices. If that's something we feel called to do. Remember if you haven't already picked up your copy of Decolonizing Wellness it is now available all over the place. The book is full of helpful exercises that you can do to feel more present in your body to feel more connected to your intuition and to your whole self, instead of just little parts of ourselves that have been deemed worthy or acceptable by the world around us. If you are listening to this episode on a podcast player, and you're not listening to on Substack. I highly encourage you to follow the show on https://daliakinsey.substack.com/ because, in addition to getting this episode every month, there is a blog post on the 15th of every month. And for people who are supporting members of the show, there's also a bonus. As always, thank you so much for being here. I'll see you next time. Get full access to Body Liberation for All at daliakinsey.substack.com/subscribe

We were proud to welcome Angela White, aka The Running Granny, to the EMEA Recruitment podcast. “If this body can do that, what else can it do?” Angela joined Paul Toms, our Founder, at the end of January, a time when people typically set their goals and targets for the coming year. Angela's prime target for 2022 is to “get strong again”. Due to recent COVID-19 restrictions, she didn't get out into the hills for training as much as she'd like to recently.  After running the 875 miles from John O'Groats to Land's End, Angela took some time out to recover, but she's hoping to complete one or two challenges this year; having run from the east to west coast of the UK previously, she'd now like to see how quickly she can run it. We explore the difficulties that led to Angela feeling overworked, unfit and unhappy in her late 40s. She started by taking small steps, initially going for a 10-15-minute walk each evening. Although she felt guilty for taking this time to herself and found herself short of breath, Angela pushed through and started to feel better, lose weight and make social connections.  Angela references the “20 ways to kill an idea”, which we can all have when stepping out of our comfort zone. After seeing an advert for a mature lady's running group, Angela took three weeks to make the call, but she found “the most inspirational lady” when she did. Angela met Sandra, who was 67 at the time and had only started running when she was 62. Through their friendship, Angela discovered her passion for long-distance running.  Angela has advice for anyone wanting to make changes to their life; set goals that are achievable within your daily routine and do something that you like doing. Walking not only helped with Angela's physical fitness, but also gave her time to speak to people she'd lost touch with and put things into perspective. Although she was out of the house and away for her children for 30 minutes, Angela felt she was a better person when she got home. But how do build up to becoming a Guinness World Record holder, running 875 miles at the age of 60? Angela developed a love for the mountains, meeting people along the way who supported her in entering a number of events. She found a 50-mile challenge in 2014 difficult, so ran it again the following year.  But it was a personal reason, yet again, that opened up “all sorts of ideas” for Angela. In June 2015, her first grandchild was born. Angela's husband, however, had died of a brain tumour in 2007 and would never meet his granddaughter. She ran a 190-mile, coast-to-coast route to raise money for a brain tumour charity. Approaching her 60th birthday put age into perspective for Angela. Having worked as a medic in the UK's NHS, Angela was aware of how miserable life can be with ill-health. As a trustee with Age UK and chair of a health and wellbeing forum, Angela is committed to raising awareness of healthy ageing, acknowledging that many long-term health problems are largely preventable.  Angela explains how meticulously she planned for her John O'Groats to Land's End challenge, which ensured she had the answers to deal with unexpected injuries and weather conditions. She learned the depth of human resilience through the pain she experienced, as well as how she overcame it.  Nevertheless, Angela believes her team worked harder than she did. She also didn't want to let down the hundreds of people who came out to support her along the route.   Two years later, when she was 62, Angela took part in a 62-peak challenge in the Lake District. Although the goal is to complete the Steve Parr Round (61 peaks over 2,500 feet) in 48 hours, Angela wanted to raise awareness that you're never too old to “get these things done”. A small film was made about the experience, which you can watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvS3HqwnXhw We look at the steps companies can take to improve their approach to age in the workplace. Angela feels that employees must invest as effectively in their mental and physical health as they do in their financial pensions. Employers also have a huge role to play; between 2018-2037, there will be a 16% increase in the number of people working age people need to support. Organisations must therefore design, develop and deliver employee health assistance programmes to embrace inclusion of all workers for the future, she says. Older professionals can sometimes face difficulties when searching for new jobs, being told that they won't fit into the culture of the team. Angela herself proves why you should never judge a book by its cover, explaining that the ultra-running world is a hugely diverse and inclusive community. As such an inspirational person, it's unsurprising that Angela has a few favourite motivational quotes up her sleeve – we end the episode by finding out her favourites.   The timestamps below will help you find the most interesting part of the episode for you: 01:30: The last thing that made Angela smile02:58: Angela's goals for 202204:42: The events that changed Angela's attitude to fitness10:46: How Angela stuck to her new habits18:15: Becoming an ultra-runner25:35: What Angela learned about herself running 875 miles30:26: How people keep Angela motivated33:09: Completing 62 peaks at 6237:03: How companies can improve their approach to ageing44:10: The diversity in the ultra-running community51:57: Angela's favourite motivational quotes54:50: How to reach out to Angela You can follow Angela on Facebook and Instagram, or visit her website therunninggranny.co.uk    As always, the EMEA Recruitment podcast is brought to you in partnership with Operation Smile. We're hoping to raise enough money to create 100 new smiles – please support us by donating: emearecruitment.com/operation-smile   This episode is hosted by Paul Toms, Founder of EMEA Recruitment, and Rose Jinks, our Senior Marketing Executive. Find out more about our professional services recruitment through our website: https://www.emearecruitment.com/  You can also find us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/emea-recruitment-limited/  To contact Paul, connect with him on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paultoms/  Or you can follow him on Twitter: https://twitter.com/paul_toms    Do you have any suggestions for the EMEA Recruitment podcast? Please send them to Rose: rose.jinks@emearecruitment.com    #emearecruitment #emearecruitmentpodcast #angelawhite #therunninggranny #paultoms #operationsmile  

In this episode, guest host Stevie Scheurich speaks with Dr. Angela Ahlgren, professor of theatre and film at BGSU, and Dr. Kareem Khubchandani, professor of women's, gender, and sexuality studies at Tufts University, about how their lives as performers and professors inform each other. Angela and Kareem discuss their research as both performers and performance studies scholars exploring how political, economic, and transnational power structures shape individual and communal performances of racial, gendered, and sexual identities.   Announcer: From Bowling Green State University and the Institute for the Study of Culture & Society this is BG Ideas.Musical Intro:I'm going to show you this with a wonderful experiment.Stevie:Welcome back to the BiG Ideas Podcast, a collaboration between the Institute for the Study of Culture & Society and the school of media and communication at Bowling Green State University. I am Stevie Scheurichm, A PhD student in BGSU's American Culture Studies program and a graduate assistant at the Institute for the Study of Culture & Society. Due to the ongoing pandemic we are not recording in the studio, ultimately by phone and computer. As always the opinions expressed on this podcast are those are the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of BGSU or its employees. Bowling Green State University, and its campuses are situated in the Great Black Swamp and the Lower Great Lakes region.Stevie:This land is a home land of the Wyandot, Kickapoo, Miami Potawatomi, Odawa and multiple other Indigenous tribal nations, present and past, who were forcibly removed to and from the area. We recognize these historical and contemporary ties in our efforts toward decolonizing history and we honor the indigenous individuals and communities who have been living and working on this land from time in memorial. Today we are joined by Dr. Kareem Khubchandani and Dr. Angela Ahlgren. Kareem is a Mellon Bridge Assistant Professor in theater, dance and performance studies and women's gender and sexuality studies at Tufts University. He is the author of Ishtyle, Accenting Gay Indian Nightlife, co-editor of Queer Nightlife and creator of criticalauntystudies.com. Kareem is currently working on two new book projects, Decolonize Drag and Ontologies, Queer Aesthetics and South Asian Aunties.Stevie:Kareem has just finished a digital residency at BGSU, including a critical drag workshop and a lecture entitled Divas, Drag Queens, Aunties and other academic personas. Angela is an assistant professor and graduate coordinator in the department of theater and film at Bowling Green State University. She is the author of Drumming Asian America, Taiko, Performance and Cultural Politics, which focuses on the racial, gender, and cultural politics woven into the practice and performance of taiko, Japanese ensemble drumming in the US and Canada. Her research interests include Asian American theater and performance, critical dance studies, queer and feminist theater and performance, and the politics of mourning. Thank you both so much for joining today.Angela:Thank you. Kareem:Thank you. Stevie: So we'll just start by doing some introductions. Kareem, you're a scholar of performance studies and a performer yourself. Can you give us a little background about what it is that you study, who you study, how you study and how do you see your identities as an academic and a performer sort of entwined?Kareem:So my recent book is a study of nightlife in LGBT communities, primarily gay male communities in India and in the south Asian diaspora. And it looks at how people move across national borders and are forced to move across national borders by economic projects of globalization. And it thinks about how nightlife and queer nightlife spaces offer these migrant subjects, places to practice their identities and places to feel beautiful and places to find desire and love. It's somewhat of a reenactment of my own journey moving to the US when I was 17 years old and finding these incredible spaces of dance and pleasure and play in New York city and in San Francisco. So when I moved to Chicago to start graduate school in a performance studies program, I started organizing queer Bollywood nights there. Modeled on what I'd seen in other cities.Kareem:And it was my beginning as a graduate student. It was also the first time I had lived in a big city and all of these things coming together, it just sort of all folded on each other. My research, my teaching, my study and my social life all sort of became intertwined with each other and it's hard for me to separate them. To me, I try to bring queer nightlife into the classroom. I'm currently teaching class on queer nightlife. I'm editing a book called Queer Nightlife. I wrote about this transnational Indian nightlife, and I try to practice it. And I perform in online drag shows right now in the pandemic and had performed at bars, et cetera. So for me, all of these things are laid on each other and are integrated into each other.Stevie:Thank you. And then Angie, you're also a performer, performance studies scholar. Could you give us background on your research and how your life as a researcher, performer and educator are connected?Angela:So the research that I did as a taiko player culminated in a book that you mentioned, Drumming Asian America, and this book looks at what I'm terming cultural politics as opposed to sort of international politics or partisan politics. But I'm really looking at race, gender, and sexuality, kind of both in different chapters, one or the other of those things as foregrounded, but they're really all connected across the book. I was actually a taiko player before I was a taiko scholar, but it was also actually my work in theater that put me in contact with taiko in the first place. So when I was an undergraduate student, I was a theater major and an English major in Minneapolis. And when I graduated, I was waitressing. So I started stage managing for an Asian American theater company called Theater Mu in the late 90s.Angela:And it was through my work there that A, I really got exposed to sort of Asian American history through theater. And it was also there that they had been starting a taiko group just around the time that I started stage managing. So that was really my introduction to taiko and I was really captivated by it and I really wanted to try it. And I took some classes thinking that I would have a kind of four week class and have an interesting experience and then go about my life. But I really loved it and I kept up with it. And that sort of turned into a whole... I guess I started performing with the group. It made me think about things in many different ways beyond the kinds of things that we may have learned in school. Didn't really think all that hard about race especially my own.Angela:So that really was a kind of new experience for me that I ended up exploring in much greater depth as I kind of moved into my work as a scholar. So it was really my experience as a taiko performer that when I went to graduate school as a master's student in English, led me to take some Asian American studies classes that again, accumulated and helped me think about my experiences as a taiko player in a different way. So I really knew that once I went to graduate school, I wanted to write about taiko as my dissertation project, but that I wanted to do it, not in a theater program. And I wasn't a musician. So that was never really an option, but that performance studies seemed to me to be the place where I could do that, because it thinks about performance really expansively.Angela:And because at least the things that I was exposed to there, I felt that performance studies had an affinity with critical race theory and queer theory, feminist theory and that, that would really be a field that could sort of accommodate the project that I had when I was going into graduate school. So my sort of life as a performer and my life as a scholar, especially of taiko are deeply intertwined in that sense that it's not something I ever would have written about if I never had performed it, even though I would have found it interesting, I think. In a sense, there's a way that the things that I feel most passionate about or feel that I can really get into the crevices of in a certain way are things that I have done myself and know what it feels to be in that world.Stevie:Kareem, yesterday in your talk you partially focused on academic personas and you detailed how your drag persona, LaWhore Vagistan, occasionally visits your classes. And so to both of you, since you're both performers, you're both in class, right? Could you both speak to how you use your experience as performers, your knowledge of performance and navigate the classroom, which is really right in an environment built by and for white cisgender or straight men?Kareem:Yeah. I mean, my second year of graduate school, I was really intimidated to teach the sort of core class in our performance studies department at Northwestern, because I didn't know how they would react to a small brown queer person teaching them about performance, right? I was really self-conscious about what especially straight men would think of me trying to teach them how to use their bodies and turn poetry into performance. In retrospect, I realized I needed to take control over myself and my body to enter that space and to feel like I had some command over it. Again, performance studies is a place that accommodates issues of gender, sexuality, race post-colonial histories, things like that. So it is a comfortable space, but in general, the academy doesn't.Kareem:So when I teach these kinds of core classes that expose me to students that I don't already know or don't have affinities with, I feel like I have to put on a persona, right? I have to lean into things I'm good at to feel confident in front of students and to do new things in the classroom. And one of the ways I've done that is doing drag and bringing my drag persona, LaWhore Vagistan to teach classes. And what that has done has made me realize that I was right all along that students are seeing me through my body. It matters who they see in front of them. And women of color have been telling us this for a long time. Women of color in the academy have been telling us this for a long time, that their labor is devalued because of their race and their gender and their sexuality.Kareem:When LaWhore walks into the classroom, I'm treated differently and it brings out a different reaction, but really drawing on drag's history of playfulness and camp and lack of sincerity, I get to be as boisterous as I want, right? So really leaning into drag as a tradition, I get to make fun of my students back to their faces. And we all laugh together because they're in on the joke in that moment. But again, it makes me realize that performance can really work for us in the classroom to defamiliarize the space and say, "Last week was a whole other moment when we were talking to Kareem. How do we talk about that moment as a time where we learned something very specific?" How do we re-explain it now to LaWhore who "doesn't know" what's going on here, right?Kareem:So being authentic isn't what I'm most interested in. Creating opportunities for learning and discussion and troubling what we think we already know is what I'm actually most interested in. So performance can do that. And then there are other ways that I use performance in the classroom asking folks to interpret ideas through gesture, or asking them to develop their own drag personas. So I think there are other ways that we can use performance in the classroom. But bringing my drag persona into the classroom is this way of appending what they think they know the classroom is supposed to be doing and appending who they think I am. And making them realize, and myself realize that it matters who you're learning from and asking as to interrupt our biases as well.Angela:Yeah. I think that's really awesome and I love that idea. I feel like hearing you talk a little bit about that at the talk yesterday too made me think about sort of developing personas in a way that I think that we sort of do it in a half conscious way in certain ways, but really taking that to another level and using it to be able to destabilize identity. I think that's really awesome. One of the wonderful and tricky things about teaching performance studies is that it's sort of everything and also nothing at the same time. It's so capacious and flexible, which is awesome. But it also, I think, thinking about when I first started teaching this class at BGSU, I also had a certain trepidation more because there's a sense of, "Well, what is my performance studies understanding?"Angela:Because I think that everybody could teach it in a very different way and still be right or correct and within the boundaries of what it is. Because it's also made up of so many different lineages from sociology, anthropology, theater studies, ethnography. I felt like especially the first couple of times that I taught this classes that students would continually ask, "But what is performance studies?" Or, "Is this thing we're doing performance studies or is that thing performance studies?" And I think that that is a little bit of a tricky line. But I think that ultimately my own, I think sort of as I'm continuing to teach it is to really rely on my own lineage in performance studies and theater studies to be able to bridge that sort of perceived gap, I guess.Stevie: I was listening yesterday, I was thinking about my first time as instructor of record. I was sort of like, I'm all over the place on how I present my gender and I was immediately navigating all of these assumptions that I hadn't really thought about, about sort of who the professor is and how they sort of present themselves. The first time I taught I skewed towards sort of the traditional sort of set up and it didn't work. It didn't work. This time, teaching this semester, I just worked something I thought it was neutral and I had a student be like, "You're not buying it, right? I can tell."Stevie:And I was like, "Okay, they know." They're going to know. That's the second time I showed up and I was like, "Just put it all out on the table." And the response to me being like, "Y'all know I'm a queer non-binary femme." The response was so much more positive and so much more when I was able to just kind of like... it was just so much more. You're being read. I definitely think of professing as a performer.Kareem:Well, you're making me think of my early days as a graduate student who was solo teaching classes. I went out and bought khaki pants and belts and ties just to feel professional, but also I would end up awkward sweating into them because they're just not what I used to wear. But I think that we understand the professor as this straight white man with elbow patches on his tweed blazer, but femme embodiment in the classroom is just not in our public imagination. And so just taking seriously gender, race, sexuality altogether can help us reflect on how we want to bring our bodies into classroom spaces and what that can do to distribute power. The way you were talking about a student seeing you as non-binary and what that does for them to feel like they're inside of the... that they belong, I think it matters.Stevie:We're going to take a quick break. Thank you for listening to BiG Ideas podcast.Announcer :If you are passionate about big ideas, consider sponsoring this program. To have your name or organization mentioned here, please contact us at ics@bgsu.edu.Stevie:So you both are studying at the intersection of race, gender, and sexuality performance. Performativity is a big word that gets thrown around in our field. So I was wondering if we could all take a shot at unpacking both the difference and the connection between performance and performativity, and also thinking about how performance helps us understand the ideas that are performative.Angela:Sure I can say, I can take a stab at this. I mean, I want to echo what I said to the last question is that these are both really capacious and flexible terms and that there are ongoing conversations and debates about what each of them means, but I'm thinking on one level, that performance is something that happens all the time on stages, in the classroom as we were just discussing, in a wide variety of social context like sports, religion, digital space. But I think the word performativity can be a little bit more slippery. And in particular, because I think that recently it's become a pejorative term for showy, fake, theatrical. And that this in some ways runs really counter to the way that performance studies have theorized the term performative or performativity, which is often based on JL Austin. Angela:The linguist, JL Austin's idea of the performative utterance, a thing that you say that makes something happen, right? I do. When you're married means that you're placing a bet. And that a lot of scholars have taken that in different ways to mean that if something is performative it's something that actually causes something to happen or make something new happen, or urges an audience to do something. There's a lot of different ways that this kind of takes shape in scholarship. So in that sense, the term performative in the way that people in the field use it is really different from this sort of more colloquial understanding of what performative means, which often I think comes to mean theatrical or dramatic. I mean, these ended up all being such terms that people in the field have problems with.Angela:But in another sense I think the term performative it sort of means both fake and real in the sense that if we think about the way that Judith Butler talks about gender as performative, she's saying that gender is a kind of series of acts that happen and repeat so much that we take them to be natural or to have an origin and some biological fact. That in fact, gender is performative because it's actually fake, but it has real effects on the world. So there's sort of this tension, I think in thinking about that word between what is real and what is not real, and whether it's fake and showy. I'm thinking about the ways that people are using performative as performative allyship, like when you just post on Facebook a lot, but you don't actually get out there and do the work.Kareem:You hit the nail on the head. It is shocking to me to hear the word performative said so often outside the academy, but especially since last summer during Black Lives Matter protests, a lot of people were also calling out what they saw as insufficient activism as performative allyship or performative activism, where performative is assumed to be the adjective of performance. Friends of mine like to say... Actually, I think what you're trying to say is performancy, performance like. But it assumes that performance is a bad thing. And that to me is really dangerous because so much activism has actually relied on performance to have its effect in the world. When we think about the role of dress in civil rights activism, or even the hoodie in the Black Lives Matter movement and the hands up, don't shoot gesture, right?Kareem:All of these are performance practices and they're not fake, right? They have this viral effect of inviting more folks into activism, allowing them to be legible to each other. The public conversation doesn't take account how powerful performance can be, whether it's how people present themselves in the world every day. But one of the ways I think the field has shifted a little bit through the work of critical race studies scholars like, Saidiya Hartman and E. Patrick Johnson and Joshua Chambers-Letson and Jose Esteban Munoz is to say, actually performance is also something people are compelled and forced to do, especially minoritarian subjects are required to use their bodies in particular ways. Kareem:And how do we take stock of the ways that performance is actually a means of managing labor, managing life, and therefore takes serious of the way people use their bodies to survive, to find pleasure, to access wealth in ways that they're denied, right? I think it's important to take performance seriously and a deeper understanding of performativity, which I understand is, performance is ability to work in the world. Can really help us understand performance is power. Stevie:What does your research and performance work reveal about the ways in which race, nationality, class shape the way we understand and perform our gender and sexual identities?Kareem:So maybe one of the simplest ways I'll put it is in the nightclub, we think we're going there to dance and be free and feel the music. But in fact, there are very regimented rules to how we're supposed to be in the nightclub. All of those things are being controlled from the bouncer to the DJ, to lights, to what's on the walls, to the size of a space. All of these are cues that are telling us how we're supposed to be in those spaces. So we think we're going into the nightclub to feel free and feel the music and in fact, we are going in there to follow a bunch of rules. What I found is that folks who are migrants to the city whether it's from the small town in India to a bigger city or folks who are migrating from south Asia to the US, suddenly find themselves not knowing the rules when they enter the club.Kareem:The way they move, the way they dress, the way they style themselves runs up against the dominant aesthetics, right? And what I'm saying is that these aesthetics are in fact controlling devices. The donut aesthetics are what gives us capital. So if we look like what the club is supposed to be, we're great. People might talk to us. When we start thinking about what are the dominant aesthetics, we start to see how people of color, sexual minorities, gender minorities don't always fit with that dominant way of bringing your body into the world and fitting into environments. That's sort of the method that I take to my research is to ask, well, who's doing the wrong thing in the club? Because we think that just sort of stepping side to side is the natural way we dance. But in fact, people only started dancing solo in club environments in the '60s onwards with the rise of disco.Kareem:So the ways that people move in clubs together is actually quite organized. So who's going to change the layout of it. So one of the things I write about is how South Asian dancers in Chicago clubs bring their Indian dance styles like Panera or Bollywood to disrupt what is expected of the space. They don't necessarily know they're doing the wrong dance, but in doing the wrong kind of movement, they help us see what the dominant movement is. You suddenly see the contrast and you're like, "Oh, I didn't know that this is what the dominant was until I saw the contrast." And what else is possible when you have these kinds of frictions inside of the club, it's sort of thinking about dominant aesthetics as they're tied to race, gender, coloniality that rub up against minority practice of the body that people just come in wanting to practice because it's what they know.Stevie:Thank you. And for you, Angie, what have you learned from your research and performance work about how racial identity and gender norms are negotiated by the different groups of people participating in taiko drumming?Angela:I mean, one of the things I would say is that there's not a really neat way to sort of define how sort of taiko is practiced or thought about. The kind of responses that I had from people that I interviewed, especially when I was asking them specifically about how race or gender or other aspects of their identity sort of inform their practice of taiko or perhaps instigated their practice of taiko, it was really quite diverse. And part of this I think is because Asian American itself is a contested term and it's always being negotiated. But I guess the best way for me to answer this is maybe to think about a couple of specific examples. So one of the examples that I kind of point to is in Minnesota, in the group that I performed with.Angela:Because of the sort of geography and history of Asian America in Minnesota, a lot of the participants in my group were Korean adoptees. That's because there is a high number of Korean adoptees in Minnesota for reasons that to do with Lutheran churches and the sort of way that social welfare works in Minnesota as a state. But nonetheless, that's a significant population. So in my interviews with this particular couple of people talked about how Asian-American identity worked with them was often quite compelling because they were people who were mostly raised by white Midwesterners. So in some ways, taiko was a way of practicing Asian-American identity.Angela:That was I won't necessarily say new, but that was an intentional choice as a way to sort of forge community with other Asian-Americans. And I think that isn't that necessarily different from the ways that other, maybe Japanese Americans in California, for example, practice. But it has a sort of different context because of the ways that there are not sort of long established geographical enclaves of AsianAmerican communities in Minnesota the way that there are in California and New York, for example. Stevie:Another question for both of you, and we've kind of hinted at this, right? Talking about power and performance. So some people might think that drag, dancing, drumming are activities that are just recreational fun outside if they're all in politics. How does looking at performance help us identify how power that work in these almost invisible ways that we navigate our everyday life that we're not necessarily thinking about when we're in the moment, right?Angela:Yes. So I think one of the things that I would think about is this sort of ability to participate based on money and access for certain people. Another scholar of taiko, Debra Wong said to me once that, "Taiko is really an elaborate leisure activity for people who have the means to participate in it." She and I are both taiko players and very passionate about the way that it can be so powerful visually sonically in its embodied form. But I think to be able to acknowledge that starting a taiko group, for example, you need drums and those drums are quite expensive, at least $1,000 for each one.Angela:And if you are wanting to have a group, you need a lot of drums. But not only that, the sort of space that you need to be able to practice in, the space that you need to perform, or even just having the time to have a leisure activity like that, that requires a lot of practice. So thinking about the ways that leisure itself is very much tied up in class and therefore power is one of the things to think about. I think I'll pause there.Kareem:That's a perfect place to pause, because that's where I want to pick up. Fun is always measured in relation to work. I don't deserve to go out because I haven't done enough, right? And that's precisely what I'm thinking about in relation to nightlife is that I'm thinking about these global laborers who one, are only in nightlife spaces because patterns of globalization have given them mobility to enter these spaces. But again, like I was talking about before, they're not aesthetically trained to be inside of them, right? So now they're made precarious subjects. They're made to feel awkward. They're made to feel shame.Kareem:All these larger political economies that produce the very small encounter in the club where you're like, "Oh, my hair is not cut like that. I feel awkward about myself," right? Even the most minor transactions in these leisure spaces actually have to do with processes of global labor, if we look closely enough and if we think historically enough. Also, when it comes to drag. One, drag is a leisure practice for a lot of people, but for a lot of folks it's also work, right? So we go to the club to have fun, but they're actually bartenders and bouncers and bar backs and drag artists and go-go dancers working, right?Kareem:Trying to get paid in that time where we are having our leisure moment. So work is always at play in those contexts. And lastly, I think any conversation about drag in gender binaries and gender in general, has to think about the history of managing gendered bodies. That is massive economy from advertising to medicalization. When we're talking about how people dress, how people present their bodies in the world, we're actually talking about all these industries that have tried to produce gender binaries and sell the gender binary as attractive. I want to add also, so I'm working on this book called Decolonized Drag, and there are so many drag artists who are making performance about colonization.Kareem:So they're responding to political and economic violence through performance in very explicit ways. One person, Ms. Shumai in California takes Britney Spears as a womanizer, womanizer and turns it into colonizer, colonizer. I think that, again, these spaces of leisure are considered apolitical, but in fact there's so much politics being practiced in them and I think that that's important to recognize.Stevie:And in a way, I think it makes it so much more effective when you make those politics explicit and giving people an opportunity to see like, "I am participating in these power sectors in ways I didn't necessarily know." So maybe we can answer this question in a way that doesn't feel prohibitive, but enabling and encouraging. Do you have any tips for our listeners on how they can be engaged in critical audience members? And really thinking, what does it mean to be a critical viewer? Since a lot of folks might just assume that that's just looking for flaws in the performance so to speak?Kareem:I think a couple of things, one is that audience members can learn that they're also performers. So I think what I would say is, as an audience member, especially when you're entering new kinds of performance spaces, is to really watch other audience members to get a sense of what is a good respectful way to be in conversation with that art form, right? I guess alongside that research the form that you're an audience of. Get a sense of how much actors and performers get paid. Understand the economy behind it and that might get you to this place of being like, "Maybe I should mediate my criticisms." Kareem:This person wasn't working with a lot of resources. Isn't getting paid, even if they're being given a platform to do X, Y, or Z show or podcast or interview. So I think that these are some of the ways I think folks can be aware of how to be critical listeners, audience, members, witnesses, and remember that they too are in their bodies much like other performers and artists.Angela:I love those suggestions and I think that some of mine kind of overlap, but one of the things to put this from a slightly different lens, this idea of audience convention. So I teach theater history for undergraduates. One of the things I love teaching about is that the kind of conventions or rules or etiquette of being in an audience or being a spectator changed drastically based on time period, and geography and form and context. So I'd like to think about unruly, very vocal audiences of Japanese Kabuki performance versus standing in an Elizabethan theater versus maybe the kind of much more buttoned up sort of darkened theater.Angela:You have to be quiet, you have to put away your cell phones, sort of conventions of attending maybe a national theater today. So I think paying attention exactly to what are the rules and conventions of how you conduct yourself in various spaces. And I think that's its own kind of pleasure in thinking about what's expected of you and what do performers want from you. And I also wanted to echo this idea of let performances make you purious. So thinking about like, maybe find something out about the performer. What are their politics?Angela:And then thirdly, just that, I think that that moment of being a student, especially a student of theater, performance studies, cultural studies that sort of period of being like, "Oh my gosh, I can't watch everything. Everything's terrible." All I can do is see everything wrong with it. But I think just thinking about the fact that we all have really complex engagements and relationships with the world in so many things. I mean, often with our own family members, why not remember that you can have a kind of complex multilayered relationship to performance too.Stevie:Thank you so much for joining us today Kareem and Angie. Listeners can keep up with other ICS happenings by following us on Twitter and Instagram via @icsbgsu. You can listen to BiG Ideas wherever you find your favorite podcast. Please subscribe to us on your preferred platform. Our producers or Chris Cavera and Marco Mendoza. Sound editing by DeAnna MacKeigan and Marco Mendoza. Stevie Scheurich researched and wrote the interview questions. 

This is Part 2 of my interview with Angela Rizzo. Angela was the CMO of eSentire, a leading company in the cyber-security space. Since the recording of this episode she has left eSentire and is looking for her next opportunity. If you would like to get in contact with her, please just reply to this email. (For all interviews you can click on the link next to the audio player to add the stream to a podcast player).I expect to be back with an essay or briefing next week. I will also be going back to dropping a second post per week with interviews shortly. Enjoy!TranscriptEdward: This is Marketing BS. This is Part 2 of my interview with Angela Rizzo. Today, we're going to dive into her experience as CMO of eSentire.  Angela, can you start by explaining what eSentire does? Angela: Yes, I'd be happy to. At eSentire, we provide an affordable, premium cybersecurity service with end-to-end proactive protection. eSentire invented a new category of cybersecurity. We call it Managed Detection and Response and I'll refer to that as MDR. MDR was invented to do two things—detect the fact that bad actors are attacking a customer environment, and then take action to contain the attack before the bad actors can do any harm.We think of these attacks in three categories—vulnerabilities, threats, and breaches. Vulnerability is defined as a weakness in a customer environment like a bad patch management practice. A threat is an exploit of the weakness by the bad actor. That's where they're trying to get into the environment. A breach is the successful exploitation of a threat. That means they're successfully able to get in. We monitor and manage for vulnerabilities, threats, and breaches. Time is critical to detect these things. Once we detect something, we then isolate and contain the attack. Edward: There are thousands of cybersecurity companies out there now. What are you doing? What is eSentire doing that's different? Or is it a matter of you're doing the same as everybody else? You're just doing it better? Angela: Managed Detection and Response is its own unique category. We have to think back to the fact that cybersecurity is a massive data analysis problem. In order to effectively provide cybersecurity protection, you have to be able to find the needle in the haystack. This is the simplest understanding of what we do.We do this in combination with three key things. First, we have our Atlas platform. There is a term that is going around right now in the analyst community and in the market called extended detection and response or XDR. This is the platform that is needed to ingest, normalize, and analyze all of this data. The second thing we do is called multi-signal ingestion. There are some cybersecurity companies out there that just ingest one signal. They'll do endpoints, or they'll do logs. We ingest multi-signals. We monitor customers' networks. We work with best-of-breed third-party companies, and we ingest their endpoint signals.We just announced our alliance with Microsoft to ingest the Microsoft Defender endpoint signal. Customers who have Microsoft licenses can work with eSentire and eSentire can manage the MDR associated with the endpoint. Edward: If a company isn't using you then, are they not analyzing these endpoints? What are the other cyber companies doing? Angela: I mentioned there were three things. You've got the platform, the multi-signal, and then the people within the SOC, within our Security Operation Center, and within our threat response units. You have to have the combination of these three things to be considered MDR, Managed Detection and Response. Many cybersecurity companies are either selling a point solution, or they're selling software, or they're claiming that they're selling MDR, when in fact they don't have all three of these things working in unison. Edward: Does a company need to use you in addition to someone else? Are there other elements in cybersecurity that you guys don't handle that they need to supplement?Angela: Yeah. Companies need to have basic security controls in place. They need to have firewalls. They need to have next-generation antivirus software. They need to have multi-factor authentication. They need to train their employees to understand phishing and not click on emails, if they don't know who these emails are from, and not click on any links. If they have these four things, these are like table stakes from a security perspective. You add an eSentire to provide this overall MDR service. That allows us to fully understand what's going on in the customer's environment so that we can hunt and contain those threats on our customer's behalf on a 24/7 basis. Edward: If I were to use the metaphor of a house, which people would understand. Someone needs to train the people in the house to lock the door when they leave, and that's not you. Someone needs to build the walls to make sure they're super secure and strong locks on the doors and plexiglass windows, and so on, guard dogs. All of that stuff is protecting the house. Your job is, hey, someone is going to actually breach the house. They come in and they try to open the door. You know when that happens and you set off the alarm so you can react. Angela: You can think of it as a house or you can even think of it instead of a house, as a small business. You've got all of this traditional security—the locks on the doors, the guards sitting at the desk, the dogs barking. Sometimes employees will open the door, like my example on phishing, employees will open the door, and let these guys in without knowing who they are. Now, the bad actor is in the building, and we can detect when they're in the building. But now they're searching. Is there personal identifiable information of the employees that I can gather? Is there a bank statement and information on customers that I can gather? Is there an intellectual property that I can gather?You think about this. We're in the digital world, and we're able to see who is actually doing these types of things in the customer's environment and have the ability to determine this isn't an employee looking at this stuff. This is somebody who got in via a backdoor. We have the ability through eSentire Managed Detection and Response to isolate that person, and to contain the threat so that this bad actor doesn't start moving laterally through the company to continue to gather more data and more information. Edward: Your company gets better as you get more clients, as you get more signals. Angela: Exactly. If you're customer number 1025, you have all the learnings from customers 1 through 1024. All of the learnings that we have had up to date are now applied to your environment. Edward: But more than that, that new customer now, because just the fact that they're on your platform, if anybody attacks them, that information gets shared to all the customers that came before them. There are positive externalities in both directions. Angela: Exactly. Edward: What do customers do that don't use you? It sounds like your product is pretty essential for protecting against these threats. Presumably, you don't have 100% market share, what is everybody else doing? Angela: There's some confusion in the market because there are a lot of people, a lot of companies that claim they do Managed Detection and Response. They're slapping the MDR label on their service, when in fact they don't. We invented MDR as I mentioned earlier. We have a very strict description and definition of what MDR is. We believe that, again, they don't necessarily have the combination of all three things and do the three things the way in which we do it—the platform, the multi-signals, and the people.There is some thought out there, and I think about that, too, as the CMO, as to why are they not banging our doors down, knocking our doors down to get our service because it is something that is very unique in the market and our customers are pretty happy. Edward: That brings me to my next question. When companies are seeking you, I know they are, is your product sold or bought? Angela: It's a service. Typical customers are small and midsize enterprises, SMBs, and small enterprises. We target companies from 250-5000 plus employees. Typically, the CISO, CIO, or head of IT are the people that are looking to buy this service.Edward: Are they out there looking for your solution? Or is it a matter of your sales calling them up and making sure they're aware that the solution exists and they should buy it? Angela: I see what you mean. Yes, absolutely. Sorry. It really gets sold. We have to sell it. We're a private company in Canada and one of the things we're working on right now is improving, and increasing our brand awareness. We do that via a variety of methods. But yes, some customers will come to us via customer references. A customer works with someone in the same industry and they've had a very positive experience. They'll refer them.We also have roughly 100 channel partners that are out there, selling eSentire to their customer base. Roughly 40% of our new bookings come from our channel. We're constantly educating the market. Part of the problem, Ed, is that a lot of people don't think that they have a problem, and a lot of these SMBs don't think that they're going to be a target. These bad actors aren't going to come after me. They're after the Marriotts and the bigger companies, and we're saying no. These bad actors are going after all companies of all sizes, and SMBs are targeted because they aren't putting these types of protections in place. Edward: I would imagine, again, you're an SMB. You have a lot going on, a lot of decisions to make, and your cash is very valuable to you because you have a high cost of capital. Going in putting money into security is downside protection rather than upside growth. Angela: The other thing is we have to convince people that they have a problem because they don't think that they really have a problem. Quite frankly, the industry has confused a lot of buyers. You go to a trade show like RSA. There's 3000 plus security packages software you could purchase. But what they don't tell you is you have to have people behind whatever you buy.Let me give you a great example, I'm sure you've heard of SIEM, Security Information and Event Management software. You put this SIEM software on your environment and it basically logs, then sends you alerts. If you're an SMB, you can be flooded with up to 10,000 alerts a day. What is a small business going to do? When I talk about finding that needle in the haystack, there's no way they're going to find that needle in the haystack if they're getting 10,000 alerts a day. You cannot hire enough people to actually do that work. That's why having a platform, being able to ingest all the signals, and then having the right people focus on those things that are truly the red flags, that's really what companies need. My job is to convince them that they have this problem, and once they understand it, the sale is actually pretty easy. But we really have to get people to understand what we do, and how we do it, and how it sets us apart. Edward: I imagine many companies treat security as a checkbox of the CEOs sees to the CTO, or the CIO, do we have security in place? The CIO goes out and finds one of these packages and buys the package, and slaps it on, and tells the CEO that they're good. Unless something goes disastrously wrong, nobody asks the right questions. Angela: That's a good point. I also think that you've got a couple of other things that are occurring. You have people that say, in order to be compliant, I have to put A, B, and C in. You go ahead and put in A, B, and C, but just because you're compliant, doesn't mean you're 100% protected. Edward: That's right. People are jumping through hoops rather than actually solving them for the problems. Frankly, most of the time, when they don't solve the problem, they'll be okay. But in some percentage of the time, they won't be. If that happens, the CIO probably points to the attackers and says, this was unavoidable. There's nothing I could have done and nobody knows any different. Angela: It's interesting because people know that they need to have basics. They need to have the next-gen firewalls. They need to have antivirus software. They need to have multi-factor authentication. They need to train their employees around phishing. Don't open an email, and don't click on a link if you don't know who it's from. You have all those things, then, you also need eSentire on top of that to provide the MDR service so that you have a service that understands fully what is going on in your environment. Again, when the red flags pop up, you have the resources at eSentire that hunt and contain those threats on behalf of our customers.Edward: You mentioned before that once you get the conversation started, your conversion rate is pretty high. How long does that take you to convince somebody that this is a real problem that they need you to solve? Angela: It depends. If a customer has already been breached, we can probably get in there and up and running in a matter of a few days. If this is a new lead that has come in through one of our webinars, or they've engaged with the website or content, it could take anywhere from two to three months to get them on board.Edward: If the first thing happens, if they've just started being breached, they feel a sense of urgency where like, we need to fix this so that it doesn't happen again, whereas if a breach has never actually happened, it feels like this is something that can always be put off to tomorrow. It might be important, but it's not urgent.Angela: Exactly. Edward: Do you need internal champions? Do you need multiple people in the organization to buy in before sales happen or if the CIO says, hey, let's do this. Does this just happen automatically or do you need to provide the CIO with materials to help convince the CEO and other people in the organization that it's worth investing in?Angela: It's interesting because typically, we work with the CISO or the CIO. From a technical perspective, they get it and they understand the value. Now, they have to go get the CFO or whoever has to approve the purchasing decision to sign off on it. I don't know if the CFO is really going to care that much about the technology. What they need to understand is, what is the risk that we are avoiding by having eSentire? What is the return on investment by making this investment in eSentire? How many people do we not need to hire? How do we ensure it again? This is basically a risk in our ROI.We provide that information to our prospects in the selling cycle so that they can go back and articulate that back to the buyer—the person who has to make the buying decision, and approve the final buying decision. Edward: How do you divide your marketing budget? How much of your budget is spent on the direct acquisition of trying to get those people that just had a breach, and they're searching for a solution to come to you, versus brand-building and content, and creating a perception in the marketplace that you're out there? Angela: It's probably 50/50 right now, in terms of building the brand because even though we have been working with MDR, even eSentire's been around since 2001, the term MDR was coined five or six years ago by Gartner. Internally, we think that we know MDR, but we still have a lot of education to do in the market especially, when you have other companies like MSSPs or other companies that are adopting the MDR term, but they're not really doing MDR. We have to educate people that, no, when we say MDR, it really means this. The people that you're talking to, our competitors, are not really doing what we define as MDR.There's still quite a bit of education that we need to do. We're spending a lot of time, quite frankly, in PR—driving more earned media, getting our experts in our threat response unit, in our operations teams, in marketing—to go out and talk about what we do and how we do it. We're getting those stories published in tier 1 and tier 2 publications to get the word out in terms of what we do and how we do it. Edward: How do you know if that's a good ROI, good-spent ROI in your spend? On the direct acquisition stuff, you can measure it. You can measure whether your click on paid search led to a lead, which led to a SQL, which led to an opportunity or a sale. But when you do that PR and the top-of-the-funnel stuff, how do you know you're not wasting your money? Angela: We watch our share of voice, which as you know, identifies how many times we get the mentions and our share of voice. We're about 20 points ahead of any other competitor in the MDR space. We measure that.Edward: Angela, a lot of companies that sell products like yours—these SaaS bit products to these SMB businesses—swear by account-based marketing, but you guys generally have not had a lot of success there. Why do you think so? Angela: For account-based marketing, I'm not simply seeing the ROI at this point. I suspect that one reason is that we rolled it out to the entire sales force and then we declared victory.Edward: You basically did what you're telling your clients not to do, which is don't just buy a software solution and check the box, and say you're done. That's what you guys did for ABM. Angela: Exactly. Guilty as charged. ABM requires focused attention and alignment for marketing and sales. You've got to have the right targeted personas, you have to have the right content. We went too big, too fast. We rolled the program out to all of the sales without a real clear focus plan on, are these the right segments? Are these the right personas? Do we have the right content?Sales reps get busy, especially, you get to the last month of the quarter, they're going to focus on closing those deals. They're not going to be focused on the ABM. They need marketing to help bring them along. What we've done is we've scaled back our efforts on ABM. We're now focused on one rep in one specific segment and she's totally bought into the ABM program. What I believe we need is we've got to build a successful program. Let's start small. Let's build this program. Let's understand what we need to do to make it work, and then let's figure out how we roll it out more widely. Edward: That makes a ton of sense. Figure out how to work at a small scale, and once you have it working, then scale it up, rather than trying to scale it up, and then figure it out after big. Angela: Exactly. Edward: Forty percent of your leads or your revenue come from these partner relationships. As a marketer, do you spend much time trying to help the partners sell more, like providing the partners themselves with tools? Angela: Oh, absolutely. I have a field marketing team that is tightly aligned with our regional vice presidents in the field. Then also, we're aligned with our vice president of channels. We are working very closely to not only enable the channel partners. We think of our channel partners as an extension of our sales team. If we're going to go out and build content for the field sales reps, we think about, how is the channel going to use this? How do we create this in such a way that if we modify it at 2%, then any channel partner can use it? They can slap their logo on it and they can leverage it.We also work with our channel leader to look at how we recruit more partners. How do we ensure that we're getting the right partners to continue to drive because the goal this year is to drive 50% of our bookings through the channel? We need to grow it by another 10%—really super tight alignment with the sales teams in the field, and with the channel sales team.Edward: Angela, thank you so much for being on the show today. Before you go, tell me about your quake book and how it changed the way you think about the world. Angela: Oh yeah, my quake book. I read this book a while back. It's called A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle. It was very eye-opening for me. His perspective is that we're so caught up with our ego and we allow ourselves to get caught up in our own thoughts. Our thoughts really are not reality. They're just our thoughts. He encourages you to focus on the present moment. The present moment is all we have. The past is gone, the future is not here yet. It's all about the present. The other thing is to help me realize that we really have no idea what other people are really going through, especially now. We just need to be kind. Be kind to each other because we just don't know what people are actually dealing with in their own lives.Edward: That's a great note to end on. Thank you so much, Angela. Angela: Thank you, Ed. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit marketingbs.substack.com

Todd: Did your kids work when they were in school? How did you feel about your kids when they were in high school?Angela: My kids had to work for their pocket money, so they would have chores to do and they would get pocket money. They would help with the washing up, sweeping, cleaning, whatever. They worked hard to earn their pocket money. They thought it was really hard.Todd: So did you ever withhold their wages?Angela: Yeah.Todd: You did? Really?!Angela: Yeah.Todd: You'd be like, “No, you didn't do your chores. You don't get the money”?Angela: Yeah, you're not having it. Yeah.Todd: Really?! How often would you have to do that?Angela: More so in the beginning. Once they get the idea, you know, if you don't work for your money, you don't get your money. And that's a life lesson, isn't it? If you don't do your work, you don't get money.Todd: That is great! Because I think a lot of people just assume, even me, like I've never had children, but the parents just spoil the kids. They don't want to have the hassle, they don't want to have the fight, they just give them the money.Angela: But you look at the difference between the Western kids and the kids out here. You can go on a bus trip with the kids out here. You can go on a six-hour bus trip. You don't hear a peep out of the kids. They stop there. The mom's asleep, maybe the kid's asleep as well. If you put Western kids on a bus for six hours, you'd have to have a PlayStation or a tablet or something. They'd be crying. You'd have to feed them things. It's a totally different way of acting.Todd: Yeah.Angela: I miss that. When I came to Asia, I noticed that the kids were happier with less, much less than we have. And it wasn't until I spent the year in Asia and then I went to Australia, landed in Sydney, noticed one thing, that the people were much bigger, but also the kids were just so spoiled. The parents were just giving in to them.Todd: So you think that maybe we need to rectify that situation, that we should stop spoiling kids.Angela: Yeah, I do.Todd: Take away the PlayStation.Angela: Yeah.Todd: Just stick them outside, yeah.Angela: You can get stalls today with - a place where you can put the kids' tablet.Todd: Yeah, it's crazy.Angela: Why won't the kid just look at the world?Todd: Yeah. It's so funny you mentioned that because before we were talking about potential business ideas, and I have an idea called “Camp Boredom.”Angela: Boredom is good.Todd: Yeah. What happens at Camp Boredom is you send your kid to Camp Boredom and it's just a camp in the woods or on a farm. The kids come and they go, “What do we do?” and I go, “I don't know. Nothing. Go outside. Just find something to do.”Angela: No Wi-Fi.Todd: Yeah, because I grew up no Wi-Fi, no nothing. I grew up on a farm and I'm really blessed. I had no idea how blessed I was at the time. But I grew up, I spent all time on my grandfather's farm, and we had nothing to do. I mean, nothing. But we had this farm, like, so we had everything to do. So the rule was, you had to be up for breakfast at 7:00 and then once you finished breakfast, you had to be out of the house, like you could not be in the house. It was almost forbidden to be in the house unless it's like raining outside. And you would be outside from sun-up to sundown.Angela: Yeah, climbing fences, climbing trees, haystacks.Todd: Right, having the best time of your life. And your imagination is going and you just… Oh! The little things that you would do. Oh, we're going to build a tree fort. Oh, we're going to do this. Oh, we're going to do that.Angela: We're going to stop the river from flowing.Todd: Right, right. So that's my idea. I think Camp Boredom. So maybe we have to…Angela: I think boredom is good for kids.Todd: Yeah. How so?Angela: Because, as you say, you know, if they're always entertained and always fed, then they don't get to learn how to entertain themselves.Todd: Yeah.Angela: If you sit them in a car with nothing for six hours…Todd: Right.Angela: Then look out the window.Todd: There was a great thing recently with Jerry Seinfeld, the comedian. He has a bit where he talks about how his mother would take him to the bank when he was a kid, and like a bank or department store was the ultimate space of boredom. Like there's nothing you can do. You're so bored, you just want to like flop down on the floor type of thing. But you're right, like I don't know if kids have that anymore.Angela: No, they don't.Todd: Where they hit that wall where there's nothing for them to do, you know.Angela: No.Todd: So do you think that maybe we should limit the devices, the smartphones, all that, that kids use?Angela: I do think we should but I think it's too late now. I think we're past the point where you can get Wi-Fi and it's that… You know, if we took off the kids now, what would they do? They'd be bored.Todd: Well, you can just never give it to them, right?Angela: Yeah, in the first place.Todd: Maybe that's impossible.Angela: It's impossible.Todd: Okay, cool.

Todd: Did your kids work when they were in school? How did you feel about your kids when they were in high school?Angela: My kids had to work for their pocket money, so they would have chores to do and they would get pocket money. They would help with the washing up, sweeping, cleaning, whatever. They worked hard to earn their pocket money. They thought it was really hard.Todd: So did you ever withhold their wages?Angela: Yeah.Todd: You did? Really?!Angela: Yeah.Todd: You'd be like, “No, you didn't do your chores. You don't get the money”?Angela: Yeah, you're not having it. Yeah.Todd: Really?! How often would you have to do that?Angela: More so in the beginning. Once they get the idea, you know, if you don't work for your money, you don't get your money. And that's a life lesson, isn't it? If you don't do your work, you don't get money.Todd: That is great! Because I think a lot of people just assume, even me, like I've never had children, but the parents just spoil the kids. They don't want to have the hassle, they don't want to have the fight, they just give them the money.Angela: But you look at the difference between the Western kids and the kids out here. You can go on a bus trip with the kids out here. You can go on a six-hour bus trip. You don't hear a peep out of the kids. They stop there. The mom's asleep, maybe the kid's asleep as well. If you put Western kids on a bus for six hours, you'd have to have a PlayStation or a tablet or something. They'd be crying. You'd have to feed them things. It's a totally different way of acting.Todd: Yeah.Angela: I miss that. When I came to Asia, I noticed that the kids were happier with less, much less than we have. And it wasn't until I spent the year in Asia and then I went to Australia, landed in Sydney, noticed one thing, that the people were much bigger, but also the kids were just so spoiled. The parents were just giving in to them.Todd: So you think that maybe we need to rectify that situation, that we should stop spoiling kids.Angela: Yeah, I do.Todd: Take away the PlayStation.Angela: Yeah.Todd: Just stick them outside, yeah.Angela: You can get stalls today with - a place where you can put the kids' tablet.Todd: Yeah, it's crazy.Angela: Why won't the kid just look at the world?Todd: Yeah. It's so funny you mentioned that because before we were talking about potential business ideas, and I have an idea called “Camp Boredom.”Angela: Boredom is good.Todd: Yeah. What happens at Camp Boredom is you send your kid to Camp Boredom and it's just a camp in the woods or on a farm. The kids come and they go, “What do we do?” and I go, “I don't know. Nothing. Go outside. Just find something to do.”Angela: No Wi-Fi.Todd: Yeah, because I grew up no Wi-Fi, no nothing. I grew up on a farm and I'm really blessed. I had no idea how blessed I was at the time. But I grew up, I spent all time on my grandfather's farm, and we had nothing to do. I mean, nothing. But we had this farm, like, so we had everything to do. So the rule was, you had to be up for breakfast at 7:00 and then once you finished breakfast, you had to be out of the house, like you could not be in the house. It was almost forbidden to be in the house unless it's like raining outside. And you would be outside from sun-up to sundown.Angela: Yeah, climbing fences, climbing trees, haystacks.Todd: Right, having the best time of your life. And your imagination is going and you just… Oh! The little things that you would do. Oh, we're going to build a tree fort. Oh, we're going to do this. Oh, we're going to do that.Angela: We're going to stop the river from flowing.Todd: Right, right. So that's my idea. I think Camp Boredom. So maybe we have to…Angela: I think boredom is good for kids.Todd: Yeah. How so?Angela: Because, as you say, you know, if they're always entertained and always fed, then they don't get to learn how to entertain themselves.Todd: Yeah.Angela: If you sit them in a car with nothing for six hours…Todd: Right.Angela: Then look out the window.Todd: There was a great thing recently with Jerry Seinfeld, the comedian. He has a bit where he talks about how his mother would take him to the bank when he was a kid, and like a bank or department store was the ultimate space of boredom. Like there's nothing you can do. You're so bored, you just want to like flop down on the floor type of thing. But you're right, like I don't know if kids have that anymore.Angela: No, they don't.Todd: Where they hit that wall where there's nothing for them to do, you know.Angela: No.Todd: So do you think that maybe we should limit the devices, the smartphones, all that, that kids use?Angela: I do think we should but I think it's too late now. I think we're past the point where you can get Wi-Fi and it's that… You know, if we took off the kids now, what would they do? They'd be bored.Todd: Well, you can just never give it to them, right?Angela: Yeah, in the first place.Todd: Maybe that's impossible.Angela: It's impossible.Todd: Okay, cool.

Have you heard of the garbage purge challenge? What happens when you throw out everything you don't need, want, or use? Revolutionize your business by automating your admin tasks with HousecallPro.com/Angela You don't have to imagine how life-changing decluttering your home would be anymore. Join us and find out why this 30-day cleaning challenge is the refresher you need to keep moving forward. Today's #AskaHouseCleaner sponsors are Savvy Cleaner Training for professional house cleaners and maids. And Housecall Pro. #AngelaBrown #SavvyCleaner *** RATE THIS SHOW *** https://sotellus.com/r/savvy-cleaner *** RATE THIS PODCAST *** https://ratethispodcast.com/askahousecleaner *** FAST TRACK TO CLEANING SUCCESS *** https://SavvyCleaner.com/Calendar-of-Courses *** MOST REQUESTED LIST OF CLEANING STUFF I USE *** https://www.Amazon.com/shop/AngelaBrown ***FUNNY CLEANING SHIRTS – DAILY GIVEAWAY*** Enter to Win - https://funnycleaningshirts.com *** MORE VIDEOS ON THIS TOPIC *** The 10 Things that Happen After You Declutter | Life Beyond the Clutter - Abundantly Minimal - https://youtu.be/kyPAxdmicYQ Decluttering 465 Items - 30 Day Minimalism Challenge | Izzy Clennell - Izzy Clennell - https://youtu.be/tCARldG41Mg Five 10 Minute Decluttering Challenges | Minimalism & Simple Living - Nida Lighthouse - https://youtu.be/PM1zsn2tsZE Will Decluttering Improve Your Life? - WheezyWaiter - https://youtu.be/U_gE1bpOuhM Decluttering Our Home! | 5 Day Minimalism Challenge - The Kummers - https://youtu.be/xb4sjOKROBA *** GOOD KARMA RESOURCES FROM THIS EPISODE *** These good karma links connect you to Amazon.com and affiliated sites that offer products or services that relate to today’s show. When you click on the links and buy the items you pay the exact same prices or less than if you found the links on your own elsewhere. The difference is that we make a small commission here at the show for sharing these links with you. 30 Days to a Clean and Organized House - https://amzn.to/2A9bwEz Real Life Organizing: Clean and Clutter-Free in 15 Minutes a Day - https://amzn.to/2AezPRM Decluttering at the Speed of Life: Winning Your Never-Ending Battle with Stuff - https://amzn.to/2AapupO Organization Hacks: Over 350 Simple Solutions to Organize Your Home in No Time! - https://amzn.to/2JOGDop Got Junk? - https://amzn.to/2A8GqNi *** CONNECT WITH ANGELA ON SOCIAL MEDIA *** LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/savvycleaner/ Facebook: https://Facebook.com/SavvyCleaner Twitter: https://Twitter.com/SavvyCleane Instagram: https://Instagram.com/SavvyCleaner Pinterest: https://Pinterest.com/SavvyCleaner *** GOT A QUESTION FOR A SHOW? *** Email it to Angela[at]AskaHouseCleaner.com Voice Mail: Click on the blue button at https://askahousecleaner.com *** FREE EBOOK – HOW TO START YOUR OWN HOUSE CLEANING COMPANY *** http://amzn.to/2xUAF3Z *** PROFESSIONAL HOUSE CLEANERS PRIVATE FACEBOOK GROUP *** https://www.facebook.com/groups/ProfessionalHouseCleaners/ *** VRBO AIRBNB CLEANING FACEBOOK GROUP *** https://www.facebook.com/groups/VRBO.Airbnb.Cleaning/ *** LOOKING FOR WAY TO GET MORE CLEANING LEADS *** https://housecleaning360.com *** WHAT IS ASK A HOUSE CLEANER? *** Ask a House Cleaner is a daily show where you get to ask your house cleaning questions and we provide answers. Learn how to clean. How to start a cleaning business. Marketing and advertising tips for your cleaning service. How to find top quality house cleaners, housekeepers, and maids. Employee motivation tactics. Strategies to boost your cleaning clientele. And cleaning company expansion help. Our host, Angela Brown, ran and managed one of the largest independently owned cleaning companies in the Southeast for 25-years. She’s the CEO, and founder of Savvy Cleaner Training for House Cleaners and Maids. *** SPONSORSHIPS & BRANDS *** We do work with sponsors and brands. If you are interested in working with us and you have a product or service that is cohesive to the cleaning industry read this: https://savvycleaner.com/product-review *** THIS SHOW WAS SPONSORED BY *** SAVVY CLEANER - House Cleaner Training and Certification – https://savvycleaner.com MY CLEANING CONNECTION – Your hub for all things cleaning – https://mycleaningconnection.com SAVVY PERKS – Employee Benefits for Small Business Owners – https://savvyperks.com VRBO AIRBNB CLEANING – Cleaning tips and strategies for your short-term rental https://TurnoverCleaningTips.com *** VIDEO CREDITS *** VIDEO/AUDIO EDITING: Kristin O https://savvycleaner.com/reviews/kristin-o POST PRODUCTION: Amber O https://savvycleaner.com/reviews/amber-o HOST: Angela Brown https://savvycleaner.com/reviews/angela-brown PRODUCER: Savvy Cleaner https://savvycleaner.com

Show NotesAfter taking a few weeks off of recording Jonathan and Angela discuss everything from Star Wars to passwords to what keeps Angela up at night. There are some bloopers to keep it real and difficult conversations about balancing the users wants with the integrity of system. Angela and Jonathan deep dive into conversation to talk through a difficult product feature decision. In this episode listeners get a peek into real conversations behind the scenes of building a digital health product.Password hygiene is a topic that we discuss a lot in this episode, there are some great articles if listeners wanted to dive into that information. Here are some articles:Cisco MagF-Secure BlogPassword managers are a great way to use unique passwords as Jonathan mentions in this episode. Examples of password managers are 1Password and LastPass.Find Us OnlineAngela Hapke - @angelahapke - https://www.clinnect.caJonathan Bowers - @thejonotron - https://www.twostoryrobot.comCreditsProduced by Jonathan Bowers and Angela HapkeMusic by Andrew Codeman (CC BY 3.0)Transcript[00:00:00] Jonathan: oh yeah, we got change to not Thursday.[00:00:03] Angela: It's like perfect timing.[00:00:06] Jonathan: changed the lawnmower now it's a different kind of lawnmower.[00:00:08] Angela: louder.[00:00:11]Jonathan: Uh, hi, I'm Jonathan Bowers is wait, I'm doing the intro.[00:00:17] Angela: Oh, no. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.[00:00:20]Intro Jonathan: Hi, you're listening to fixing faxes. And I'm your host Jonathan Bowers[00:00:26] Angela: and I'm Angela Hapke. And so I haven't watched any of the Star Wars movies.[00:00:37] Jonathan: at all?[00:00:39] Angela: Ever at all. So I've watched bits. Like you, you always see clips of them or maybe bits and pieces, but I've never seen a full Star Wars movie.[00:00:50] Jonathan: At all? And you are, you are, you are a member of society?[00:00:56] Angela: Okay![00:01:01] Jonathan: Did, how does, how did you manage to avoid watching any Star Wars[00:01:05] Angela: I'm not even sure. To be honest. I, I I'm unsure of how this has all came about. And I'm one of those people that don't want to jump in in the middle. So I always felt like I had to watch the previous ones before I could watch the new ones. And because of that, I've just never put in the effort.[00:01:23] Jonathan: It is a lot. It's a,[00:01:24] Angela: It's and it's an effort,[00:01:26] Jonathan: it's a saga.[00:01:28] Angela: I've started watching the Mandalorian.[00:01:31] Jonathan: Oh, good for you. Do you like it?[00:01:34] Angela: I really like it.[00:01:36] Jonathan: It's really good.[00:01:37] Angela: is, only, I'm only on episode three, I think three or four. And, um, I really like it.[00:01:47] Jonathan: Why do you like it?[00:01:49] Angela: Oh my goodness. Well, it was. I don't know. I like it. It feels like an old, like, it feels like a Western,[00:01:58] Jonathan: It is, it is a[00:01:59] Angela: right yet to set in some time. And, um, I don't know. There's something charming about[00:02:13] wait, are you a big fan[00:02:16] Jonathan: I'm a big fan.[00:02:17] Angela: or a big fan? Okay.[00:02:19] Jonathan: I mean, I wouldn't say I'm a big fan. I would say.[00:02:22] I'm a pretty big fan. Yeah. I really like, I like star Wars. I like, uh, I've played some of the video games. Um, I have a board game, this like cool X-Wing game. That's that's quite fun. I bought just, just before COVID and now I have no one to play with. Um, Zach's too little and it's not Julie's kind of game.[00:02:35] Okay. Um, yeah, I'm a fan.[00:02:38] Angela: So I find fans always have an order that they suggest that other people watch the movies in.[00:02:47]Jonathan: I, I, my belief is to watch it and it's how I think I want to watch it with Zach when he's old enough is, uh, four or five, six. one two, three,[00:02:57]Rogue One, uh, then four, five, six, again. Yeah, that's seven, eight, nine. Then you can go back and watch Solo and whatever the other one was.[00:03:08] Angela: Okay. So I think I'll just watch them in release date order.[00:03:13] I think I might watch it with Alex. I think she's old enough to watch all of those.[00:03:18] Yeah.[00:03:19] Jonathan: You never, you never not old enough. Yeah. Yep, two.[00:03:25]Password Resets[00:03:25] Angela: But that's uh, what are we going to talk about[00:03:29] Jonathan: I have no idea. Honestly, I have no clue. Um, I would like to get to some community stuff at some point and some interviews or some guests, but, um, we can just talk about like, what's going on in product land. Uh, we can talk about password resets.[00:03:47] Angela: Password resets.[00:03:50]Jonathan: so , uh, it was hard to read your emotions in that meeting just now that we had, when we were talking about password resets. so I wasn't sure if you were upset, if you were disappointed, um, in like the way that product has been built, if you were disappointed in users,[00:04:03] Angela: God, you're going down a rabbit hole, Jonathan.[00:04:05] Jonathan: Yeah, no, it's just, it was very difficult to read you to read you on the video call. Like w there was very little, uh, body language to go off of. Um, and I was, I was watching, like, I flipped to, like, I often just flip to like see everyone mode so that I can, like, I just find that better.[00:04:20] Angela: Oh, I like the gallery view better on[00:04:21] Jonathan: yeah. Gallery view. Thank you. And, uh, yeah, you just, you were just seemed like maybe something was going on. I thought I'd check in.[00:04:30] Angela: this is so funny. my nonverbal can be quite loud sometimes.[00:04:34] Jonathan: Sometimes.[00:04:35] Angela: Yup. And I think when it's not, people tend to be like, What's up. What's going on,[00:04:43] Jonathan: The silence is just as[00:04:45] Angela: Okay. No, no. I think for me what it is is, um, Things have gone relatively smoothly with product development thus far. We have always kind of had this good, a flow of, of maybe not knowing exactly what our user needs next, but having a really good idea of what they need next.[00:05:12] And I feel like with this password reset, um, or lack of due to the the encryption, the end to end encryption that we have on this, on this product is I, not that I feel like we're letting our users down because I think there's massive pros to this and we have to communicate that somehow. But I also feel like this is like a bit of a disappointment factor with them that we can't just do a password reset.[00:05:41] Jonathan: Yeah, it seems like uneasy feature. Like it seems like something that everything does. I forgot my password. I'll just reset it.[00:05:48] Angela: Exactly. And maybe talk a little bit about why we can't just do that because I don't think I can talk that well about it.[00:05:56] Jonathan: That's fair. Um, yeah. So the previous episode, I think we talked about the fact that this Clinnect is encrypted end to end. We, we, as the builders of the product, can't see anything. There's, I mean, there's bits of stuff that we don't encrypt because we need to, like, we need to know who the referral goes to, that sort of thing, but we can't see any patient information.[00:06:16] So all of that information is completely hidden from us. The only way to unlock that is with the password from the user that unlocks that data. Right. So if they that's the key, that's literally the key. If they lose that or forget that they've lost the key. And so we can't go in and recover that data for them.[00:06:37] Angela: Exactly.[00:06:38] Jonathan: So it different than, uh, and the example that Chris was giving like Facebook, right? Like if you lose your password on Facebook, you just go in and request a password reset. Really, all they're doing is just verifying that you are who you claim to be. So they follow up with maybe a message on your phone or an email or something, and they give you a little link.[00:06:59] That's just proves that you still have access. Like you are. Still Angela. Um, the person requesting this password reset is Angela. So they go through something that they trust, like an email to send you a link, and then you click on that. And then that's like, okay, cool. We'll just throw away their old password, give them a new password, except that for us to do that, um, that would literally mean throwing away the key.[00:07:21] We don't have another key like that. That was the key. And so if you've forgotten the password or. Um, lose, you know, lose that password. You have lost the key to accessing the system. That's that's its strength. Um, but also the weakness from the perspective of the user, because now they can't access the data and we can't get it back for them.[00:07:43] Angela: And we, and that's the key right there too, is Facebook can give me back my password because they can see everything.[00:07:49] Jonathan: They see it all.[00:07:50] Angela: We don't see it all. We can't give you back your password. So we've had some users that have bumped into this, and we've had users that have reached out to me personally and gone we need this feature.[00:08:00] We need a password reset on, on, um, this application. And I think it's the first time that, you know, It seems like you say an easy fix. It's not an easy fix. It's not, it's not. Yeah. Um, it would compromise the integrity of the whole application if we just allowed a password reset. So we can't do that. Um, we've built this product, um, to be as secure and private as it is.[00:08:28] I mean, we just can't compromise that. So we're stuck in this really hard place where we have users that want to feature that they're used to seeing on many of them, their applications that they have without, you know, without even the need to understand why they, they don't have it here. Um, yet frustrated that they don't.[00:08:49] And so that was what you were seeing today in the call, I think was just my, my inner turmoil around really wanting to please the customer on this, but knowing, um, that pleasing the customer would, um, would degrade the integrity of the product. And I'm just not going to allow that.[00:09:05] Jonathan: Yeah. I think that's a good stance as uncomfortable as that can be sometimes, um, is to do what is right for the product. And in that, in that case, it's actually what's best for the patient.[00:09:17] Angela: exactly. And we do have to, we do have to go back to that. Um, and I think you often see that in our meetings is, you know, I'll kind of go, okay, well, hang on at the end of the day, what we're doing is we're ensuring a very safe product for our patients. We're ensuring that their information is being handled in the most appropriate way.[00:09:39] And, um, that's what it comes back to with this one again. Um, yeah, I'm just, I'm not compromising on the quality of the product on this one. But damn, it makes it hard to have that conversation with the users when it's, they don't understand it. They're not supposed to understand it. That's not for them to, I don't, I don't want to expect them to.[00:09:57] Jonathan: I don't think that they need to understand the technical details, but I think, I think there is an opportunity here to really show the users what good password hygiene looks like and why that's so important[00:10:10] um, we still, we need a way to allow them to recover because it's equally, it's equally bad for the patient. If,[00:10:17] if a specialist has received referrals and they can't get access to them[00:10:22] Angela: Exactly. Exactly. So, yeah, we, and I think that's why in the end, what we ended up talking about was, um, a multilayered approach to this in that we have like plan A, B and C around account recovery.[00:10:39] And how are we going to ensure that our users can get back into their account? Um, cause like you say, if you know. We can't just reset the password because that compromises it. But we also, can't not let them get back into it. Cause that compromises too.[00:10:57] Jonathan: Yeah, and it, it just brings up so many interesting problems in this space and it it's the, it's the intersection of sort of, of technology and security and, um, the users, um, you know, the ease, the ease of[00:11:10] Angela: Exactly and that's yeah, that was what was frustrated with is I'm like, Oh, we are the ease of use.[00:11:19] Jonathan: I do think though. I really do think that if you can somehow treat this as an opportunity to show our users why this is important, um, that will benefit them, not just for this product, but across all of like other,[00:11:35] Angela: Yup. Yeah.[00:11:36] Jonathan: if they're reusing the same password, um, that's not great if they're also using pastors that are just easy to[00:11:41] Angela: Too easy to forget.[00:11:43] Jonathan: Yeah. That's and that that's that hints at this like weird problem in, in, in security, which is you want passwords that are very secure. but you also want them to be usable,[00:11:54] Angela: but not too usable, but somebody could pick to guest them.[00:11:58] Jonathan: Yeah. So it's, it's very, very tricky, but there are, there are tools that exist to help you with this. So we require everyone on our team to use a password manager. And so, um, like no one, no one on our team knows any of their passwords.[00:12:13] Angela: Right.[00:12:14]Jonathan:  It's, it's managed by a tool that generates this randomly long, like this random string. That's very long. It's very, very hard to guess. I have a high degree of confidence that, um, all my passwords are unique.[00:12:26] I don't even know what they are, and even if they were to, even if they were to, uh, find my password, you know, say, say my password for Facebook was compromised. Like somebody, all of Facebook's, um, the database and. Like let loose all of the passwords. And this has happened lots of times.[00:12:43] There's lots of examples of large sets of data being hacked. And you can go and look like, look up your passwords and see if they've been hacked. Um, but the only thing they'll be able to get into is that one account, they won't be able to then get into a bunch of what other things, um,[00:12:58]Angela: you're not using the same password for[00:12:59] Jonathan: not using the same password for everything.[00:13:01] Yeah.[00:13:01] Angela: So the, um, I think the interesting part here though, is you guys are a sophisticated tech company.[00:13:15] Our users are not sophisticated tech company or sophisticated technology users and, um, almost most cases too. Right. And so that's where yes, that's where the turmoil was that you were seeing on my face in their meeting today is just really trying to figure out what's the best thing for our users and how to manage.[00:13:33]And I think the solution that we came up with is a tailored solution to the users that we have. If we had some very sophisticated users, we would probably suggest something like you just mentioned that you guys use for them. It's not going to be the case. It would be more of a sophisticated account recovery,[00:13:56] Jonathan: Yeah,[00:13:57] Angela: but it can't be this time. Um, it'll work, it'll be secure, but it's tailored for our users to, yeah. And so, yeah, that was an interesting one though. Like I say, up to this point, we were. I think we've really, we've really like, kind of had like some bumps, but not, not too many bumps.[00:14:16] And I feel like this one was the first like bigger usability bump that we've had.[00:14:23]Jonathan: I'm going to come back to the, like the education piece here. I actually think that if, if, uh, if someone is relying on password reset, um, That like, that's not good practice regardless. Like you shouldn't be doing that. So, so, you know, if you sign up for a thing and you're like, wow, just whatever, I'll just put in a password cause they make me, um, and I'll rely on password reset. Um,[00:14:46]Doing a way with it passwords is, is actually a pretty good sss arguably that's an interesting take on security is you just don't have passwords every time you want to log in. We just send you a special thing in your email because we trust that your email hasn't been compromised.[00:15:03] So we just send you a thing, an email, and you just click on the thing and it opens up and that's, that works for certain types of applications. It doesn't work for us because, because everything's encrypted and we can't send you that thing, because we can't get in.[00:15:15] Angela: Yep. So you're, you're wondering, is this a really good education opportunity or an awareness opportunity for our users to say, Hey, what'd you call it? Password hygiene[00:15:28] Jonathan: Yeah. Good password[00:15:30] Angela: Yeah. Here's some ideas. So. Um, the only reason I hesitate and don't jump, I think that is, I just feel like, Oh my gosh, is it another thing that we're going to have to awareness, educate, et cetera, et cetera about, um, do we have the bandwidth to also do that[00:15:50]does it take a lot of bandwidth? I don't know, but I think when you're so heads down in a startup and then you realize your is bumping into something like this. And then someone like yourself is like, this is a great opportunity to teach them password hygiene. I just feel like, Oh my God, another thing really, um,[00:16:09] you're not wrong.[00:16:10] I'm just like, I feel like I've just fatigued a wee bit.[00:16:14] Jonathan: that's fair. That's fair. And it's a funny, it's a funny piece though. Like it's different if it was, you know, if, if, if users were, you know, boy, I wish it did this feature. Right. And we can, we can kind of talk about how, um, okay. I mean, we don't really see the value in that, at least not right now, but this talking about access to the whole thing.[00:16:34] Angela: Yeah, like this is integral[00:16:37] in into the application. Yeah, I know. Yeah.[00:16:44]What Keeps You Up at Night?Jonathan:  what else keeps you up at night?[00:16:48] Angela: You know, so this was a, um, somebody said to me the other day, when I was explaining to them what Clinnect was and what we were doing. And he says to me, he's like, Oh my gosh, all that patient data. Doesn't that keep you up at night? And do you know, because of that, what we were just talking about with the systems that we've put in the fact that no, you know, it's very hard to get into an account.[00:17:16] And even if you're just to get an account, you get into one account know, that's it like, because we've put up, we've done privacy by design. That actually does keep me up at night. What keeps me up at night now is like, We got to get more users.[00:17:35] Jonathan: Okay.[00:17:36] Angela: what's keeping me up at night right now. I'm like, we've got to get more users and we're at a weird, um, balancing point because we have specialists and we have primary care providers.[00:17:47] So we have two sets of users. One type of user wants more of the other type of user on before they jump on both ways.[00:17:57] Jonathan: chicken and egg.[00:17:58] Angela: Chicken and egg. And so, so, you know, like, and I think that's why you just kind of use the double barrel approach and just kind of push both at the same time. And hopefully you get to that balancing point, but that's, what's keeping me up at night right now is everybody's just a little bit sitting back and waiting and I'm like, no, just do it.[00:18:25] Jonathan: And it's, it's funny, like back, we talked about this eons to go, how there is this, it is kind of a marketplace. in that you've got specialists who need to receive referrals from a primary care providers and primary care providers who want to send a specialist and you're right. They both want more of the other because it becomes more valuable. If there was all the specialists on the system, then all[00:18:48] Angela: All the primary[00:18:49] Jonathan: providers would be like, Oh, sweet.[00:18:50] This is, this[00:18:51] Angela: And if all the primary care providers were using there'd be specialists, clamoring to get on.[00:18:57]Jonathan: it does feel like a little bit more weighted towards one, like one way, like the primary care providers have no reason to sign on if there's no specialists. So, but the specialists can sign on, even if there are no primary care providers. Right.[00:19:16] Angela: Correct, but what would be the value for them if there's no primary care providers[00:19:20] Jonathan: No, I, yeah, I get that, but, but there's also no risk.[00:19:25] Angela: Correct? The idea is to get all the specialists and all the primary care providers from our area on. And if we can do that, we can accomplish a couple of different things we can accomplish. Um, I mean, I think eyebrows would be raised in other areas to go, Whoa, what, what are they doing in Kamloops?[00:19:43] They have all the referrals going through one portal. It's all tracked. It's all secure. What an amazing, um, system that they have happening there. Um, what it also starts to do is you start allowing your specialists and your primary care providers to accurately track the referral management and numbers.[00:20:07] So we actually start to see, um, an really interesting thing happening with specialists. They're able to look at it and as a group go, Oh my gosh, the demand for our service is here and it's even broken down by these categories. And what that arms them with is really interesting data if they ever want to sit at tables.[00:20:29]Um, you know, when they're talking about, uh, additional resources for their hospital or additional resources for their area, and, and when you have, I have a whole geographic region on one system where they can start actually pulling accurate data from that becomes really, really interesting. So that's our focus right now.[00:20:49] Our focus is to get the users on from both sides specialists and primary care provider from our area on and, and really, um, you know, that's why we call Kamloops our beta community is because we've, we do truly want, um, that, and I think it would be powerful.[00:21:06] Jonathan: Do you think that there's a feature that we could build that would entice the specialists? Even if there wasn't, there wasn't a primary care providers and possibly never going to be primary care providers[00:21:22]Angela: I've never thought about a system that didn't have both.[00:21:25] Jonathan: Well, I like the, what you just described, you know, being able to analyze some of that demand data. Um, and that's, I mean, that's kind of what you started doing in the way back in the beginning was looking at the demand[00:21:38] Angela: we still, we still do like the consulting arm of central referral solutions. We'll actually do deep dives into your offices and EMR, and actually pull out that demand data. It's hard, it's expensive and it's labor intensive. Um, Clinnect is a product that was introduced that would help you do that a whole lot easier and a whole lot cheaper.[00:22:04] Jonathan: Right, but it, but it relies on the data coming through from primary care providers. Could, could we build, is there something small that we could build that, that lets the specialists sort of retroactively start, like putting in some of this data, like, like it's not hard for them. Well, maybe, maybe it is, but, you know, could they take, could they take the referrals that they've had in the last month or quarter or whatever, and then just like, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to put these in and just see, you know, see where our demand is.[00:22:35] If that's, if that's valuable, then can we just, you know, type in all the referrals that came in and start to see some of that demand to data. And so use it as a bit of an, uh, a bit of an analytics tool, um, without, without actually getting any of the referrals coming through.[00:22:50] Angela: so Jackie has kind of built that. she has built programs that do the analytics around. So what it involves is, is us going into each individual office. And there's a reason for that to like, to actually physically go in their space is to understand how do they receive referrals?[00:23:09] Like as soon as you get a referral, is it put into your EMR right away? Is it not. Yeah. Like how do you manage those? And, um, with that tailored and customized approach, then you get true demand data. We've gone the, I like the extra hundred steps to actually analyzing wait time data along with that. So it's not just referral and demand data.[00:23:35] It's wait time data. But this is when we also get back into what we've talked about in a previous episode around categories. There's no categorization right now.[00:23:45] Jonathan: right.[00:23:45] Angela: Remember these, all these, all these referrals come in with no standard categories. So we do that in on top of, so like the, the, the consulting that we do is highly tailored and highly customized.[00:23:59] Um, it comes at a price, but it is very much worth it. judging from the results that we've we've had with giving that data back to the users themselves. So we're armed, we're literally just arming them with their own data. Jackie has built that, that tool. I'm not sure that it would be valuable in a, in a, like a smaller tool or a paired down tool.[00:24:27] Jonathan: Right.[00:24:28] Angela: I'm not sure how that would even look. And like I say, there's so many, so many things that we've learned through this, and this is why Clinnect came out of that. Mmm.[00:24:39] Starting this fall, we're going to do a big marketing push. Um, we, because we are focusing on the geographic area, we are literally going to go door knocking. Um, we're we have an intern that we've hired. Um, her whole job is, is to like, just go door knocking, have people understand what Clinnect is, why they want to sign up and then just literally help them sign up.[00:25:02] Just walk them through the process, which isn't a hard process, but it's, it's um, I think at first to get those numbers, so we talk about chicken and egg. We need one of those. We need the, we need one of those to tip. And I think to get us to the tipping point, we need to do a very tailored marketing approach where we go door to door[00:25:28] Jonathan: When you say one of those, you mean that like the primary care providers[00:25:31] Angela: or the specialist we[00:25:32] Jonathan: I th but I think it's, I think it's gotta be the specialist. Like what, like, there's no reason for, uh, like there's no use to it. As a primary care, but there's no use to anyone if neither one neither side is on that, but there's less use for the primary care provider to sign up because they can't, they can't do anything.[00:25:50] Angela: Correct. That being said, we already have one specialty on, so they are there and we do have two more specialties. Queued. If anybody knows anything about healthcare is that July and August are like classically slow down[00:26:08] times.[00:26:09] Jonathan: for everything like everyone's on vacation. No, one's responding to emails.[00:26:14] Angela: So then we're battling that right now, too. So yeah, I think that's why that's keeping me up at night right now. Password resets and user numbers.[00:26:26] Jonathan: Nah.[00:26:27] Angela: Yeah.Outro[00:26:30] Thanks for listening to Fixing Faxes, building a digital health startup. I'm Angela Hapke. My cohost is Jonathan Bowers music by Andrew Codeman. Follow us on Twitter @fixingfaxes. You can find us wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And please do us a favor and tell a friend. Thanks for listening.[00:26:47] Jonathan: It's it's almost as if you haven't, uh, been gone for three weeks, not practicing this.

Show NotesAt the beginning of the episode Jonathan talks about watching Hamilton, which was recently released on Disney+. Here is a link to the streaming service and the filmed version of the original broadway.This episode delves into the design sprint that Two Story Robot led Clinnect through, we talk about the ups and downs and how valuable it was. Check out the blog post about design sprints and the design sprint we did with Clinnect.Find Us OnlineAngela Hapke - @angelahapke - https://www.clinnect.caJonathan Bowers - @thejonotron - https://www.twostoryrobot.comCreditsProduced by Jonathan Bowers and Angela HapkeMusic by Andrew Codeman (CC BY 3.0)TranscriptJonathan:  Can you do this? I can't do it just a second. I can get it.[00:00:04] Angela: sounded like a drip.[00:00:09]Jonathan: Yeah. It's, I'm not very, I'm not very good at.[00:00:12]Intro[00:00:12] Hi, I'm Jonathan Bowers.[00:00:17] Angela: And I'm Angela Hapke and you're listening to Fixing Faxes.[00:00:21]Jonathan: And I watched Hamilton this[00:00:24] Angela: was it?[00:00:26] Jonathan: so good.[00:00:27] Angela: watched it yet.[00:00:28] Jonathan: so good. It's it's so we've read a little bit about shaming for people who don't like it. Um, which I think is a little unfair. I mean, I enjoyed it a lot cause I like, I liked the style of music and it's really neat to see that in a musical also, we would never go see Hamilton.[00:00:49] Like, there's just no opportunity for us to go to Chicago or New York or London,[00:00:53] Angela: And especially right now.[00:00:55] Jonathan: Yeah. So it was really cool to watch. We had to watch it over two nights. Um, just cause it's, it's quite long, it's like two hours and 40 minutes. Um, but I didn't know. I didn't know that it was pretty much all rap and R and B and um, yeah, like it was really,[00:01:09] it was really cool.[00:01:10] Angela: well, I didn't know that either Brad will love it. I'm[00:01:14] Jonathan: It's so great. It's I really enjoyed it. It's very fast. It's hard to follow in ways because it's one it's like, it's just very quick. So you gotta, like, you have to be paying attention and it's a lot of American history, which I'm not, I don't, I don't know. I don't have any of the background knowledge for anyways[00:01:32] um, but it was still, it was, it was really cool. I really, I really enjoyed it.[00:01:35] Angela: Okay. I'm definitely going to check it out.[00:01:37]Jonathan:  one of the YouTube videos I watched said that if, if it was paced the same as a, a regular Broadway musical, it would have taken six hours because of how many words they cram into two hours and 40 minutes.[00:01:51] Yeah. It's very[00:01:53] Angela: Wow.[00:01:54] That's very cool.[00:01:55]We Launched The Podcast[00:01:55] Jonathan: We launched the podcast too, that has come out. Um, I've listened to it. I've listened to it a bunch of times. Cause I edited it edited. I listened to it a bunch of times because I edited it and then I listened to it when it came out and I've since listened to episode five, which we recorded last week with our new mics.[00:02:16] And I hate, I hate the first four episodes. I don't like that. Uh, I don't like the way they[00:02:22] Angela: of course not. Well, of course not,[00:02:23] Jonathan: but we have four, I think four five star reviews. Yeah. There's well, one from your husband.[00:02:32] Angela: I was like beyond my husband.[00:02:34] Jonathan: Yeah, I think there's, I think there's some other ones, because if I look at the average yeah, we've got an average of four stars and then that one, one star review that they didn't leave.[00:02:45] Yeah. They didn't leave a comment, your husbands and then some other five star reviews. Um, but have you heard any, have you got any, any feedback from people.[00:02:51] Angela: Um, yeah, so I, I. Put it on my Facebook, like, just like, Hey, we're we're doing this. Wow. I, so heartwarmed by everybody. And people I haven't talked to in years, like sometimes decades that, um, have gone, like have saw the post gone and listened to it and then come back to the post to write me something.[00:03:19] Jonathan: That's[00:03:19] Angela: so lovely and[00:03:22] Jonathan: creeping on your Facebook a little bit. I was a little jealous of how many people were commenting on your, on your post about it. Cause no, one's no, one's commented on mine at all. Uh, that's fine.[00:03:34] Angela: it is like, honestly, there's a lot of my mom's friends that are going.[00:03:38] Jonathan: Oh,[00:03:41] Angela: Yay. Thank you. Friends of mum.[00:03:44] Jonathan: that's great. Everyone's everyone's dream is for their, uh, for their friend's daughter to become a podcast host. I think[00:03:52] Angela: Yeah, right.[00:03:53] Jonathan: it's just a proud, just a moment of pride. That's so great. I love it.[00:03:57] Angela: It's been really cool. And then like just the engagement factor around that has been really, really fun. Um, so it's, I mean, mostly the people that are listening, um, as of today are really just friends and family.[00:04:10] Jonathan: Yeah. It's not a lot of, not a huge audience at the[00:04:13] moment. Um,[00:04:15] Angela: so, thank you. If you're listening to this and you've made it to episode, whatever this is six[00:04:20] Jonathan: Episode six, if you're just joining us though now, because he couldn't deal with the poor audio quality. Uh, we get it.[00:04:30] Angela: I'm glad you rejoined us. Ah, yes. So we we've launched the podcast. We've got some reviews, some listens more, probably more downloads than I thought we would have.[00:04:43] Jonathan: Um,[00:04:45] Angela: Or did you, or[00:04:46] Jonathan: I was kind of hoping for a bit more. We have a, I went in this morning, we have a hundred total downloads across both the team, the teaser, and the first episode, I think there's, uh, like 30 or 40 downloads for episode two. And, um, yes, 60 or 70 downloads for the teaser. Um, but it's, it's interesting.[00:05:04] The pattern is different. The, the pattern is more stable for episode two, whereas a big spike on day one for the, for the teaser, and then it quickly, quickly dropped off. So, but it's only been out a couple of days, so we'll see. We'll see what today[00:05:18] Angela: And it's so much easier to listen to a three minute a teaser than it is to commit to a half an hour.[00:05:24]Design SprintsJonathan: uh, so we were thinking about talking today about, um, some design stuff.[00:05:29]Angela:  before we started working with you, I had no idea what the design sprint was and I think that's, uh, it's super fun thing that we did. And I think we should talk about what that was and how we did it and why maybe what it was like from your perspective, my perspective and things like that.[00:05:51]do you want to talk about what the design sprint is to get us started?[00:05:57] Jonathan: Yeah. So a design well a sprint. There's this, there's this term that comes from agile product development and agile methods in, uh, software, but also other aspects of, of building things and this idea of a sprint. And it's this like short time window, sometimes two weeks, sometimes a week, sometimes a month.[00:06:19] It sort of depends on the project where you focus on a thing. And I don't love the term sprint. I think it, I think it connotes this idea that you are like constantly running the entire time. And then in, in the agile world, you sort of divide up your, your iteration cycles into sprints And so sprint one for focus on essence sprint two, we're focused on this and I've talked with people who kind of get the wrong idea and they think like, Oh, like, why isn't everyone just sprinting the entire time? All the time and I think, well, that's not sustainable. You can't, you can't, sprint every single day.[00:06:54]even sprinters, don't train by sprinting all the time.[00:06:56] Angela: exactly. Yeah, no, you're[00:06:58] Jonathan: So, um, anyway, so it's, it's a way of dividing up time. Um, and you kind of call it a sprint, but it's meant to be really focused on. You know, one thing or if there's a goal in mind. And so a design sprint, which I do like the term sprint for a design sprint, because it is it's short.[00:07:16]Um, it's a, it's a predefined time window. We don't do it like over and over and over again. We do one of them, maybe two of them. So our, our design sprint is. Basically three mornings. So usually Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday morning. It's very, very intense. It's very structured. We have a script that we follow and it leads us through a bunch of exercises. Um, some of which is just to like get the creative juices flowing. So we've got some sketching exercises that we do. Um, this fun thing called crazy eights, where you take a piece of paper and fold it in[00:07:53] Angela: I remember that.[00:07:54] Jonathan: Until you get eight pages and then every minute you have to draw something new on each one of those panels. Um, we don't share that stuff, but it's, uh, it's just to like get the creative juices flowing, but the goal is to, um, bring together, you know, the I'm the product expert. So yourself, um, the people that would be responsible for building, building the product, uh, like, uh, our team on Two Story Robot and it cramp them in together into this quote unquote room. Cause we don't do it in a room. We do it remotely and forces, through very short time windows, to like be creative and come up with things. And it's a really good way of getting information exchange happening, back and forth. Um, so we, we can quickly learn a lot about the domain in three days, we've become, um, we don't, we don't become like your level of understanding at it, but we get really close.[00:08:49] And then as an. And as an output to this entire process, as we collect collaboratively design, a bunch of features and screens that we think are the most priority, highest priority things to work on. Um, and then, and then at the end, we have a design that we can kind of start implementing with, which is, which is really cool.[00:09:07] Angela: From a Clinnect perspective. Um, when we started out with the design sprint, um, what we had was simply an idea. We knew the features that we wanted to add in, but we had no idea what this would, this product would look like. Um, Jackie and I had kind of sketched out some ideas cause we're super visual.[00:09:29] The both of us, um, just to kind of get on paper, what we thought we might want to see. And then we headed into this design sprint, which I knew nothing about. I w uh, I was like, okay. Yeah. And I think you sent me an email and you're like, Hey, do you want to try this? I'm like, sure. Let's, let's try this. And it was like, you know, three full mornings.[00:09:52] And, and so from what I would say is from where we were on the Monday at say eight or nine o'clock to where we got by end of day, Wednesday was mindblowing. The amount of work that we were able to push out in that sprint and get our heads around was unreal. It was super high value from our perspective.[00:10:21] So that was really, really cool.[00:10:24] Jonathan: Yeah, we've had, we've had that feedback, uh, cause we've run them a few times now and the feedback has always been yeah um, surprise at the end of how, how much, how much value came out of it and just how much understanding and how much tangible, like tangible design came out of it. I mean, it doesn't come out with fully fleshed out really high quality designs they're, they're pretty rough, but the, the, um, like they're really good bones on the skeleton, and then we can, then we can take that and start adding, adding all the flesh to it and it's um, but it's yeah, it's in three days, um, a lot gets done[00:11:01] in three days.[00:11:02] Angela: So when coming into it in February, we had like ideas and little sketches and it was cute to nice. And then by the end, I was like, Oh my gosh, we have all of this, which helped us push for the next thing too.[00:11:16] Because we were able to do that so quickly. And then we're kind of a bit on a roll that I was like, okay, like, let's get this going. So that outside of just getting the tangible designs and things like that done, it also helped just fuel the, the builds for the, the product too, which I found super valuable also.[00:11:34] Jonathan: I mean, another thing that it helps do is it, it really ruthlessly prioritizes what needs to get done because you can't, you can't, he can't address everything in three mornings. So there's a bunch of things that we really want it to do. But, um, you need to focus on the things that are most important or have maybe the most uncertainty.[00:11:52] Angela: I think, and I think the other thing I wanted to mention too, is it is. It's exhausting. Like, I was really tired after all that. Love it. I mean, I also being like the quote unquote customer in this, um, my brain was tapped a lot, like, okay, Angela, what do you think about this? Does this make sense? That, and so it was making like really, really quick decisions, which for anybody.[00:12:19] Can be really exhausting. And so I know, I remember after the three days, it was really, really tiring, um, highly valuable, but it goes back to what you said about a sprint. Shouldn't be like, you know, it's not sustainable. And it was like, mentally, it wasn't sustainable for me at all.[00:12:37] Jonathan: It's exhausting. It's exhausting. There, it's a lot of demand on you as the, as the expert. Um, because we, you have to download a bunch of information. You have to think and respond quickly to questions because you kind of facing a squad of everyone else on the, on the sprint. I think there was six of[00:12:56] Angela: Yes, there was[00:12:57] Jonathan: Um, and so everyone has questions. You say something and it triggers thoughts in other people's minds. And so they have questions now. So you've got to respond to that. So there's a lot on you. Um, there's a lot on, uh, so myself and my Maja a facilitated it it's, it's really it's. It has to be a tag team in order to facilitate the thing.[00:13:15]Um, cause there's a lot of this, a lot of stuff happening all at once. One of us is writing notes. One of us is sort of leading and facilitating the discussion and leading through some of the exercises. We, you know, it's a bit of a production too, is we've got music that we're playing and,[00:13:28]Angela: Oh my goodness. The music.[00:13:30]There was so many, there was so much commentary on the music. So Jonathan decided he was going to be the DJ. I don't know. And, uh, there was, you got so much flack for the, for the music that you were choosing.[00:13:44] I think it was mostly from Chris and I, but.[00:13:46] Jonathan: Yeah, we have some playlists that we use and I think one of them doesn't resonate very well with, uh, with everyone.[00:13:53] Angela: I was one of those people. It didn't resonate. Well,[00:13:55] Jonathan: It's it, but interestingly, so it's, that process has spurred me to, um, change, the experience I'm trying to create in all of my Zoom calls now. So having, having facilitated a few, a few design sprints, um, and getting some really good feedback about the experience, obviously I'm not going to put that much energy into , every zoom call that I'm on, but I've got a new camera now.[00:14:18] I've got a good sound. I've got to figure it out how I can, how I can quickly add music to the call. Um, so, um, I'm not a DJ by any means. No, I just like go hit, play on Spotify, but sometimes I can, I can find a song that actually reflects the meeting well, and then I play it. I play it out. I play us out and I've gotten some good feedback on that.[00:14:38]Uh, it's been fun.[00:14:40] Angela: Is that going to be like a job in the future[00:14:42] Jonathan: I think it could be a job now, I think.[00:14:45] Angela: But yeah, what I mean, I guess future being now, because we're all can, you know, meeting via virtually is that that becomes a new, a new skillset.[00:14:57] Jonathan: Yeah, at our all hands meetings, we have like a question that we ask. And it's just a fun question to just think about and discuss and just create something else to talk about. Um, One of them was what, what's a thing you'd like to learn. And mine, I decided was improv. Yeah, because I mean, I had just finished watching a, that long format improv on Netflix, uh Middleditch and Schwartz, which I highly recommend. It's really funny. I've always enjoyed improv. And so I was reflecting a little bit on what the design sprint is and sort of running, running, engaging meetings.[00:15:34] And I was like, this is it's improv. Like, how can I, how can I be, how can I, how could I improve that? I could be an improvization person, an improv comedian, or[00:15:45] like an[00:15:45] Angela: improv artist.[00:15:47] Jonathan: An improv artist. Right. I could be an improv artist. I haven't taken any efforts to like go and do that because I don't have any time, but it's something that I think about a lot.[00:15:55] And I w I really wish there was a maybe like a podcast I could listen to, to like, help me become a better at improv.[00:16:04] Angela: I love it. So anyone listening that has suggestions on how Jonathan can become an improv artist, please message us.[00:16:15] Jonathan: I think it would be a cool skill to have. It would be great for interviews on the podcast for, yeah. Anyways, I I'm, I'm excited about the idea of it. I don't know what I'm going to find time to go and do it.[00:16:26] Angela: Oh my goodness. I love that.[00:16:30] Jonathan: the other thing that I wanted to like share about the design sprint process that we have is that it, it kind of only works remotely.[00:16:38] Angela: You know what I would agree at first I was very, and this is pre COVID, so we could have met in a room and thought nothing of it. And we all. Mostly, except for Maja who was in Poland at the time, we all actually worked in the same building. So it would have been very easy to do this. And, and, um, the old school part of me that like, you know, has spent years in healthcare where meetings are, um, at first it was a bit like, Oh, No.[00:17:07] I want to, like, let's all get in a room and let's do this together. And you're like, no Angela, this is all virtual. And at first I was like a little bit disappointed, but then once we got into it, I probably didn't tell you that at the time. Um, but once we got into it, I totally got why we were doing it virtually and it made a lot of sense and it worked out really well.[00:17:34] Jonathan: Yeah, there's, there's so many things that you can do when you don't have the constraints of a physical world. Um, we use, we use some tools that allow us to very, very rapidly work on the same thing at the same time. And it gets really messy. Like we do this, um, we do this organization process where you're. You know, you're putting virtual sticky notes on a whiteboard and then somebody grabs it and moves it on you to somewhere else. And you're like, okay, whatever. And it's really fast. And so we can take seven minutes and, and categorize and organize a hundred sticky[00:18:08] notes and, and surface some meaning out of that.[00:18:11] Angela: And there was, um, there was a lot of getting used to that.[00:18:17] Jonathan: Oh, yeah. Yeah. The tool, the tool is we're used to the tool, um, others, uh, when people use it for the first time, uh, it, it, it can be a bit overwhelming and it[00:18:27] Angela: It was a bit. Yeah, but it was quick to learn. So it was overwhelming at first, but quick to learn, but I think it was more like my, my own control issues where I'm like, Nope, I put that sticky note there. Why is it moving? Somebody is moving it. And, but as soon as I kind of lost that need for understanding everything, because you can't during this design sprint, especially as a newcomer to it, as soon as I kind of lost that need to.[00:18:56] Understand and control, then it worked really well, but it was hard for me at first, but it didn't take, like, I like you adapt really quickly. I guess.[00:19:07] Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a, it's a really messy. It's a very messy process. It makes people feel uncomfortable, especially. I think, I think you sort of hinted that you were a bit of a controlling, um,[00:19:22] Angela: Oh,[00:19:22] Jonathan: freak. You're just someone who likes to have control over things. And I remember thinking, I don't think she's going to like this very much.[00:19:32] Um, but like it's, it has to work this way. Like you can't control it because it's so it's, it's quite organic. Um, and it, it needs to be[00:19:39] Angela: And I think it's that, um, you know, we're talking a lot about this these days about leaning into uncomfortableness and that's where, um, beautiful, messy, creative things come from. And that's exactly what this design sprint was at first. It was, it was, it was a bit. Um, chaotic messy, but from it, if you just allow yourself to be uncomfortable and okay with being uncomfortable in that moment, you can create some really beautiful things.[00:20:06] And, um, that's where I think we were able to get. And I was probably one of the bigger barriers at the beginning to doing that. If I'm going to be perfectly honest with myself, but it was good.[00:20:20] Yeah.[00:20:20] highly recommended design sprint. Um, like I say, didn't know what it was, went into it unknowing definitely, you know, was, was pushing back at first and then so proud of what we came up with out of it.[00:20:35] Jonathan: Would you say it was fun,[00:20:36] Angela: Yeah. some of the best things are, you know, like they just. They tire you right out, but there's, there's fun. Um, yes, it was fun.[00:20:45] Jonathan: Yeah, I really enjoy them. They're they're so exhausting, but there's so much fun.[00:20:51]Angela: Um, so our software, uh, developer, Jackie, that, uh, works at Clinnect. Um, I remember at first she had a real hard time with it because she is the kind of person that loves things to be beautiful and nice and organized. And you can see it from, you know, she's a photographer and her pictures are gorgeous. Um, you should see your notebook.[00:21:16] It's.[00:21:16] Jonathan: Our notebook is[00:21:17] Angela: It's amazing.[00:21:19] And so then when you're doing this design sprint, like, and you talked about this, like the eight square, is that, what am I calling it? The crazy eights or something? Yep. Uh, Oh, Jackie hated that. I remember. She was so frustrated because you have to draw something in a minute and then you flip it over and draw something else in a minute and you kind of keep iterating on what you had drawn last and you get, you know, and it's, it's just, as Jonathan said, an exercise to start opening up your mind.[00:21:46] Well, I remember the grumbles so funny. Yeah. But because she's also this person who thinks about things and it's very particular. I also feel like she, once we kinda zoned in on what we were, what we were looking at a little bit more, she was able to take it to like a next level, because then she was able to focus in on those details and things like that.[00:22:10] And that's why it's so great to have a super diverse team when doing it and allow everybody to go through their grumbles and bumps and. It'll come out the other side better for it. . I had actually liked to do it again with something[00:22:28] Jonathan: What we had planned on, we have plans to do another one. Um, we had discussed it.[00:22:33] Angela: Oh, right. I forgot about it.[00:22:38] Jonathan: I don't remember what about, but we had identified something that we thought needed some additional,[00:22:43] Angela: Well, it's probably our premium features. No.[00:22:47] Jonathan: and I thought there was something else.[00:22:49]We are always looking for other opportunities to do design sprints, because they are so effective. They're really hard to describe though. Like they're almost impossible to describe to someone cause we say like, Oh, it's really, it's really weird.[00:23:02] It's really uncomfortable. It's very messy. And it's, it works really well.[00:23:07] Angela: Yeah. And people like myself are like, no, thank you. But I trusted you. That's actually, maybe the, maybe the piece that we haven't talked about is that trust piece is I trusted you to guide us through that. And I think you need to find a team that you, that you ha you have to have that trust there, or else that does not work.[00:23:28] I don't know. Have you ever had a, have you ever had a client where. It's like it went a little bit sideways.[00:23:35] Oh, that's nice. You must be so trustworthy. Everybody's just like, okay, Jonathan.[00:23:41] Jonathan: it's, it's always produced very good results and, and it's always, it's always. Kind of the same experience. So maybe that's just, we've like we have really great customers, um, which, which is true, but, uh, yeah, I don't know how much of it is because it just works or that we have customers that are sort of willing to work, willing to take that chance a little bit.[00:24:02] Angela: Probably a mix of all of it. Um, what we'll likely do in the show notes is link to maybe a little bit more information about design sprints.[00:24:12] Jonathan: Yeah, so we're doing, um, we're going to do a blog post on design sprints that this can, this can relate to, . Anyway, so, so hopefully we get to do another design sprint, um, on Clinnect, on whatever, whatever feature we think[00:24:24] Angela: Oh Lord.[00:24:25] Jonathan: What else is, what else is coming up? What else is next?[00:24:28] Angela: what's coming up. Uh,[00:24:32] Jonathan: Hopefully, well, hopefully, hopefully on the next recording, we're going to have Chris come in guest and explain to us how all this encryption stuff[00:24:44] Angela: Yes. Chris is wildly smart.[00:24:49] Jonathan: I'm very excited to hear you describe it as well, because I've, I've given you a, um, a metaphor or an analogy or a way of describing it, which you took, and I think you change to give to someone else. So I'm, I'm curious to hear all of it, all of it, and then do it in front of Chris for him to shake his head at and say no, no,[00:25:11] Angela: you have it all wrong. Yeah. That is a hundred percent what is going to happen? And I'm[00:25:16] Jonathan: Yeah. So you've been listening to Fixing Faxes, building a digital health startup. I'm Jonathan Bowers. My cohost is Angela Hapke. Music by Andrew Codeman. Follow us on Twitter @fixingfaxes. You can find us wherever you listen to podcasts. And please do us a favor. Tell a friend. Thanks for listening.[00:25:33]Camping with the Family[00:25:33] Angela: I'm taking my children camping in our new trailer for the first[00:25:38] Jonathan: You[00:25:39] Angela: weekend we bought a popup trailer, like[00:25:42] a, a tent trailer.[00:25:44] Jonathan: yeah.[00:25:45] Can you fit a family of four in that?[00:25:48] Angela: yes, apparently we bought a very large one. Yeah. I didn't have a clue. We really, we didn't know what we were doing when we bought it, but we bought it and our children are so happy.[00:26:01] Um, but they're so excited to take it. So we're going to take it four on Friday night for the first time. Wish us luck.[00:26:07] Jonathan: Uh, good luck.[00:26:11]

Show NotesIn this episode we talk about different grants, contributions, tax incentives, and non-equity financing that there is available in Canada, specifically British Columbia and how it has helped our businesses. Here is a list of the grants/programs/incentives that we discuss and links to find out more information:NRC-IRAP - Industrial Research Assistance ProgramYouth employment grants through IRAP- Youth Employment, Venture for Canada, & New Ventures BC & Innovate BC.SRED (Scientific Research and Experimental Development) Tax program The company Angela mentions in the episode which specializes in SRED claims is Infinity SREDThere are many contests & competitions to apply for, if you are interested in more information we suggest starting to take a look at organizations that support the type of contest/competition you might be interested in.Incentives and contributions are great, we have used them along the way when they fit with work we were already undertaking. Just remember, it is better to focus on your product and less on distractions.Fact CheckJonathan mentions he is into a new marble league, if you are interested in checking it out it is in fact called Jelle's Marble Runs and can be found on YouTube.Find Us OnlineAngela Hapke - @angelahapke - https://www.clinnect.caJonathan Bowers - @thejonotron - https://www.twostoryrobot.comCreditsProduced by Jonathan Bowers and Angela HapkeMusic by Andrew Codeman (CC BY 3.0)TranscriptJonathan: When you move, when you move the arm, it makes this like sound like, check this out. Like when you hear that, Oh, whoops.[00:00:10] Angela: Totally.[00:00:10] IntroductionYou are listening to Fixing Faxes, a podcast on the journey of building a digital health startup with your hosts, myself. Angela Hapke[00:00:22] Jonathan: And I'm Jonathan Bowers and we have been infatuated with Marble League.[00:00:30] Angela: I don't know what this[00:00:30]Jonathan: it is the best sports to watch while there is no sports. Although the risk sports now, I actually discovered it last year, but I didn't watch it until, COVID times.[00:00:38] Cause I didn't think Julie would enjoy it, but she really likes it. So imagine, imagine, imagine the Olympics, but if if the athletes were marbles. Yeah. So they, they like set up these, these courses and they put marbles at the top and the marbles just there's a machine that like releases them at the same time and the marbles go racing down the track.[00:01:00] Angela: Okay.[00:01:01]Jonathan:  but, but they have teams, so they have teams that are named.[00:01:04] So I'm a fan of the O'Rangers. They're the orange team. And Julie likes the Misty maniacs because they look like, or know the minty. minty maniacs. They're minty colored. Cause she likes mint and it is phenomenally exciting to watch and you get very emotionally involved in it.[00:01:22] If you pick a team it's so much fun. Yeah. And there's like there's drama[00:01:29] Angela: I'm so confused about like, given, okay. So, Oh, there's so many questions I have. Where do I start? Given the race? Like the track or the course?[00:01:44] Does a team pick a certain marble.[00:01:48] Jonathan: Yes. So some of them, some of them are, like there's some, some events that require the whole team. Like there's, um, there's a, a push event. Like it's a strength event and they all raced down and they have to push this thing along the track. And the further it goes the higher your rankings are.[00:02:03] Um, but then there's ones that are just, Like you're competing with all the other teams. And so there's just one marble and all the marbles have names. Yeah, they do. my favorite team names is team Momo and I don't understand marbles at all, but there's a team called team Momo.[00:02:16] And one of the, the team captain, his name is Momo. but then there's Mo Momo. There's another marble on team. Momo. It's super fun.[00:02:25] Angela: so captains are real people?[00:02:29]Jonathan: No everyone is marbles. they're all marbles. The referees are marbles. There's a whole like stadium of marbles, I that cheer and they hold up a little marble signs[00:02:36]Angela: And what, sorry, what is it called again?[00:02:40]Jonathan: It's it's called, Jelle Marble League. I think it's the name of the person who created Jelle's Marble League.[00:02:51] Angela: I want to say that I'm going to go check this out, but I'm really not sure that I'm going to[00:02:55] go check this out. Do you think my daughter would think this is funny too?[00:02:59] Jonathan: I think so. I think if you watched it with her[00:03:01] Angela: Like there's no bad words in it.[00:03:03] Jonathan: no, it's[00:03:04] Angela: Okay.[00:03:05] Jonathan: Um, You need to pick a team though, like go from the opening ceremonies. There's an opening ceremonies. Pick it. Yeah. There's an opening ceremonies. Pick a team, like decide on just some random team and that's the team you're going to[00:03:17] Angela: You got to stick with[00:03:18] Jonathan: It's awesome. Like, there'll be a, there'll be a moment where your team like comes back from the, from the back of the pack and overtakes, and you're going to cheer. I promise you you're going to cheer. So I think, I didn't think Julie would think this was funny or fun or anything, but she really likes it.[00:03:32] And, uh, we've been watching John Oliver and he he's sponsored the whole season. Yeah. So it's, it's a marble league presented by the, uh, Yeah, John Oliver, and every, every episode, a $5,000 donation gets made to a food bank in the name of one of the marble teams that wins[00:03:54] Angela: I love it. That's actually quite cute.[00:03:56]Grants and Goverment Funding[00:03:56] Jonathan: Yeah. It's super fun. Love to see how we transition out of marbles into something.[00:04:00] Angela: Oh, Lordy.[00:04:01] Well, so today's episode might put you to sleep. We're going to talk about grants, not equity, funding, and taxes incentives.[00:04:13] Jonathan: I mean it's okay. So it's not that[00:04:19] bad.[00:04:19] Angela: It's not[00:04:20] Jonathan: it's super boring, but it's an interesting, it's an interesting thing to talk about because, Canada, and in some ways, particularly BC is a very, is a really great place to start a technology company because of all of the government incentives.[00:04:36] Angela: exactly it. There's a lot of people saying that, Canada is going to be like the up and coming leader in tech, a lot of it has to do with the way that we welcome the way that we welcome tech firms, but also the way that we welcome tech talent too. Probably more importantly.[00:04:57] So that's, that's kind of cool. And I know for us, there's a there's, there was a couple of grants that we got that. It really got us over some super important bumps along the road. Like the only reason that Jackie's with us is because of the grant that helped, right from the get go[00:05:16]Jonathan: Tell me a little bit about the, about the grants that you received.[00:05:19]Angela: Backing up to about a year and a half ago now I was in contact with our local IRAP representative. So IRAP is the Industrial Research Assistance Program put on by the national research council in Canada here. And they have different types of pots of money. And maybe actually you should probably talk about, you know, kind of like more of the IRAP grant program, but what we accessed through them was a youth unemployment grant.[00:05:51]They had some certain qualifications that they had, and it was to be, like a relative recent grad from a post secondary institution. Um, so, and, and youth, so under 30, and I'm sure there was a couple other things like unemployed or underemployed. And right at the same time that I was talking to Kevin about that, I was also talking to Jackie who was still in university at the time about her honors thesis that she was doing, which was aligning beautifully with what we were doing. And then I was, I was thinking at the time, man, if I could afford to hire this young woman coming out of university, that would be great.[00:06:33] And right at that, But I think within that week or the next week, Kevin informed me that there was some, some money available around youth employment. And I was like, Oh, well, I have the perfect person and, uh, that's how we hired Jackie right away.[00:06:47] And I think they covered. I want to say it was 80% of her salary for like six months. And that was the only way I could have hired somebody. And I don't know what I would do without her. So thank goodness.[00:06:58]Jonathan: I don't think they're called grants.[00:07:01] Angela: am I calling it something wrong?[00:07:03] Jonathan: Well, I think, no, I think they call it a contribution. So[00:07:09] Angela: You're right. They did use that language a lot. Sorry,[00:07:15] Jonathan: yeah. There's a lot of, there's a lot of restrictions on[00:07:18] Angela: what we can call it. Yes. Thank you for, for clarifying that for me,[00:07:24] Jonathan: a lot of these funding opportunities, these government funding opportunities exist to help de-risk some of these investments, particularly that small companies might be making, like, you know, making a hire[00:07:37] Angela: is such a huge cost to, um, startups.[00:07:42] Jonathan: Well, it's the biggest cost usually. Yeah.[00:07:45]Angela:  and in our case It would have been a harder road. Had I not. we found a perfect fit and, we had more momentum with that hire than we would have otherwise.[00:07:57] Jonathan: Yeah.[00:07:59] Yeah. And it, it, I liked those ones. They also incentivize you to hire, you know, take that chance on someone relatively new. So it's, it's also de-risking that, right? Like, you don't really know if a new graduate is going to perform at the level that you need them to, or want them to, or be able to grow into that.[00:08:18] But if, if, if you're taking some of that risk off the table and, you know, giving them a little bit more opportunity to grow into that role, that's I get, like, I really liked the grants for that.[00:08:29] Um, just, you know, just let's de-risk this opportunity, hire someone, hire someone new, give them their first job. and I think that aligns really well with, our, our culture a bit too. Like both of us, both you as CRS and us as Two Story Robot.[00:08:46]Angela: because you're more familiar with IRAP's other programs. Did you want to talk about that at all? Or.[00:08:53]Jonathan: So the one, the one contribution that we receive from IRAP was a, was a small project. So it's under $50,000 and same, same kind of deal. Like they cover 80% of salary costs. but it allows us to explore a product that we wanted to build, with very little risk and we still had to, we still had to sell it to show the ability to actually pay for the entire project without the grant, or sorry, without the contribution. Uh, but once you got the contribution, then you're just kind of on the hook for the 20% plus whatever overhead you'd have to pay to keep that, you know, keep the lights on and then you get to you just kind of just get to explore this product and try and build this product, without, without a lot of that risk and it may not have ever happened.[00:09:41]downside is we, you know, we ended up. It just didn't work. We didn't have market traction for that, for that product.[00:09:47] Angela: but it allowed you to try.[00:09:49] Jonathan: yeah. And yeah, it allowed us to try and we learned a ton about just the process of building, building products, which led to getting hired Fresh Grade and some other things.[00:10:01] Angela: I think the, the whole idea of, de-risking projects to allow the creative freedom, to really explore and research and, and develop new things, is the idea behind it. But I know for us it's, it has been exactly that. We should say that also the, the process to accessing these types of contribution is a bit as a competitive process. There's limited, contribution availability out there and that, uh, like we've, we've asked a couple times for projects to be considered and we haven't been approved.[00:10:39]But anybody that I've spoken to that has access to IRAP money has said very, very good things about it and what it's done for them.[00:10:48] Jonathan: It's a great, it's a great program. It's, it's not overly burdensome to[00:10:53] Angela: No.[00:10:54] Jonathan: it's actually pretty, it's pretty easy. Um, we, when we had our agreement, it was right at the right during the time that, NRC got hacked,[00:11:05] um, and then we had to do everything by mail or by fax and it was, Oh, it was, it was, it was unpleasant. Yeah. I remember at one point yeah. Fax. I remember, I remember cause we didn't have a fax machine cause why,[00:11:23] Angela: Well, no. Why would you,[00:11:25] Jonathan: and it took me all day to figure out how to send a fax.[00:11:29]Angela: so you should have just gone to your local doctor office.[00:11:33]Jonathan: Yeah. I tried like our copier, the copier in the building had the ability to fax that didn't work. I w went up to Staples and said, Hey, can I fax this? And they said, uh, yeah that's going to cost you a hundred and some odd dollars. So why? Cause we charge by the page differently for a long distance fax.[00:11:52] And this is, that doesn't make any sense, like[00:11:54] Angela: Oh my goodness. Yeah.[00:11:57] Jonathan: so. Ridiculous. and then I came back and like explored all these things. But by the time it was all said and done, I had spent an entire, I wasted the whole day.[00:12:06] Angela: day[00:12:07] Oh, my word. Oh, my word,[00:12:10] Jonathan: machines[00:12:11] Angela: fax machines. No.[00:12:14] Jonathan: know. So silly.[00:12:16]Tax Credits[00:12:16]Angela: the other thing I did want to talk about was recently we received, like SR&ED tax credits. And so it's our, our first year, because 2019 was our first tax year where we were, we would have had activities that would have qualified for SR&ED. And I wanted to talk about that a little bit because.[00:12:38]number one, I was so impressed with the whole, uh, like I, we had a company that helped us out and they were amazing. I hardly did anything and yes, I paid them to, you know, a commission to do this, but, um, I didn't even think we would have qualified until a friend of mine she owns a tech company and Regina had told me about how[00:13:03] she also did the same thing and she's like, how's it just, just contact this guy and see if, if, uh, you know, maybe, maybe CRS has some activities for, for last year in blah, blah, blah. And it was amazing. He was just like, got me started and filled out the application for me, submitted everything for me. And I was just like, I w I was amazed at how slick the process was and, um, what a great tax incentive.[00:13:31] So SR&ED is Scientific Research and Exploration and Development[00:13:36] Jonathan: Scientific Research and Experimental Development.[00:13:39] Angela: development, um, tax credit. So anybody that's doing, um, Just new, new specifically. It can be in the resource sector too. Right. So like mining and, and, you know, like engineering and things like that. But also for tech back it's, it's building something new, uh, which what we're, which is exactly what we're doing and as a majority of our time and effort.[00:14:01] And so, yeah, we did that through them and I mean, you have to. So when you have contributions through IRAP and then tax credits top of it, it just like, I was, I'm just so impressed with how, um, how well that all came together for us. And a couple of them were surprises too. And I was like, Oh, thank goodness.[00:14:21] Cause this year was. tight year, so it continues to be a tight year. So very like, and these are the kinds of things that help us go through these first few years as a tech company. I mean, you're really not profitable until typically year three. And so it makes it, uh, it makes the tough times a little easier.[00:14:41] So that[00:14:42][00:14:42]Jonathan: so one of the really interesting things about SR&ED is there. They're trying to incentivize technical uncertainty. And they, they don't care if it succeeds or not. Like that's not, that's not on the metric. So you don't have to do something that is successful. You just have to try to solve a problem that has never been solved before.[00:15:00] Angela: I think this is why I'm so impressed with these types of, incentives. Let's just call them incentives and blanketed. That way is so much of what we're trying to do. Has a low success rate. Yet there's so many spinoff benefits of it. Even if it does fail, we learn things. We can try new things. Um, like all, all of those, all of those spinoffs are amazing.[00:15:29] And we have, um, Um, incentive programs and, and either government or non-governmental bodies that are supportive of that, that at least trying, even if you fail, we know that there's going to be learnings from it. We know X, Y, and Z will come out of it. Um, and they love that. I love that because, so I'm such a big proponent of systemic change and how hard systemic change is and can be that the failure rate is so high when it comes to trying new things and trying to change things, um, that it's. So it's so nice to feel a bit supported in a way that is meaningful around that, like financially[00:16:17] Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah.[00:16:19] We did our own SR&ED claim in the first couple of years that don't rec I don't recommend doing that[00:16:24] at all. Um, But I, I did it. I sent it off and the, the person from Canada Revenue phoned me up and said, okay, you've done this kind of wrong in some spots.[00:16:36] Here's what you need to do. You need to fix this part here. And I need some other documentation here and send it to me whenever you can send it to me, send it to me here. And I sent it and they come back to me like, yep, this looks good. Um, I need you to change this piece here.[00:16:49] And I would change that and send it back. It took, it took a long time and it was really complicated and I was really frustrated with it because I waited too long. but they were so helpful[00:16:59] Angela: They were cold. They were collaborative.[00:17:01] Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he wasn't like, he wasn't helping me game it in any way. He would just like pointed out the fact that I probably filled this out wrong and I needed to clarify that, but gave me the opportunity to fix it. And didn't say like, why you did this wrong? That[00:17:14] Angela: wrong. Send it back[00:17:15] without help.[00:17:17] Jonathan: just reject it.[00:17:17] They just, like, I recognize that there was a problem[00:17:20] Angela: That's so lovely. So my first SR&ED claim was done and I'm going to plug this guy cause I think he's amazing. His name's Daniah and it's Infinity SR&ED. And, um, so he helped my friend Kristy. So Kristy connected me to him and literally with, I think. I don't know, three phone calls, quite a few emails, like, you know, a few emails back and forth.[00:17:43] She got all the information that he needed. He made our first shred claim. And, and literally like then Daniah emails me and he's like, okay, Angela.[00:17:53] So they've processed it. Um, you're expecting this much back. And then he like connected like my accountant, um, directly. And I was like, it did honestly very little and then just like money in my bank account. The company's been counting on mine[00:18:12] Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah. And it comes as a check. Like it's not like a rebate on future tax[00:18:19] Angela: Yeah. This is not, uh, a tax. Yeah. Uh, re is that what it's called a rebate or whatever? Yeah. Like it's not like a tax credit. Oh no. It's[00:18:27] called[00:18:28] Jonathan: is a tax credit, but you just get it as a[00:18:30] Angela: It's a check.[00:18:32] Jonathan: It's not deducted from your tax filing later on in the year. You just get it back right now and you can, you can like, there's no stipulations on what you spend it on. You're probably going to spend it on salaries, but, um,[00:18:43]Angela: yeah, I just, I thought that was really, really slick. It was a bit of a surprise to me that we were even going to be SR&ED-able last year. Um, now that we look back on it and I'm like, Oh, well of course we were, but just at the time, I had no idea. So it's always worth looking into, even if you don't think that you might qualify for it yet, because we didn't even have a product at that point.[00:19:02] Right. We were in the midst of building one[00:19:04] Jonathan: that's, that's good. Right? And There's some great programs like the Venture for Canada, which is a new program that I didn't know about. Um, they will back 50% of a, of, uh, uh, co-op student. So they have to be enrolled in co-op. Um, And they will pay for 50% of their salary up to like $5,000.[00:19:27] I think it is. Um, that's a super, super great program.[00:19:31] Um, but you can also stack that against another grant that BC has as in the, so Innovate BC has a, has their ISI grant. And then they have this other thing called co-op they're funny.[00:19:41] One is you must be corrupt students. The other is you[00:19:44] Angela: You must not be a CO-OP. Exactly. Yeah, we'll be hiring an intern for the fall semester with the, she is not a co op[00:19:54] Jonathan: The ISI that's the innovative innovation skills initiative[00:19:58] Angela: exactly. And it's a, it's a collaborative program between Innovate BC and New Ventures BC[00:20:04] Jonathan: Yeah. Yep.[00:20:06] Um, have you hired the person yet? Have you identified the[00:20:08] Angela: Yeah, we have, yeah, September 8th or ninth.[00:20:13] Just part time. So they, because, because they are in school right now also, so they're going to be going to school while they do this.[00:20:20] Jonathan: local or? Sweet, that's exciting.[00:20:24]Are Incentives All They Are Cracked Up To Be[00:20:24] I actually have a, kind of a, also like an opposite view to grants and tax incentives. Um, and it's, it's something that, a bit of a mentor of mine had sort of pointed out was that it may actually disincentivize companies to do the thing that they're supposed to do, which is get revenue from customers.[00:20:45] Angela: Oh, okay. I can see how that can be distracting.[00:20:50] Jonathan: you can get, yeah, you can get really distracted with pursuing grants and because there's all of these available incentives, it becomes a bit of a distraction to pursue them all and, um, you know, to go and, you know, try and get your IRAP grant.[00:21:03] And if you can't get it, then, well, you know, don't try. But really like if you just, if you took it, the approach to building your product a little differently, you might not need the grant in the first place. I still think there's lots of room for, for grants in certain applications. And obviously if they're there, you're going to go and try and take advantage of them.[00:21:19] But I think it creates a, a weird, um, I don't want to say like a lack of hustle, but like a little bit of a lack of a hustle in companies, because they just think that the government will just support them[00:21:31] Angela: Oh, that's and you know what? That is a, that is a totally fair perspective. As a company that has emerged from a government funded project, we could have gone down that rabbit hole or real easily. What I think helped us is focusing on the product that you want to build, focusing on what the users want.[00:21:55] And in our case, you know, the other stakeholders being the patients, what makes the most sense for that? And. Pairing that with, I have a bit of a background in grants and funding and kind of knowing what's out there. So that was more organic for me is that the focus was build this and then[00:22:15] is there anybody out there that has some incentives to help us build this? And if not, we're building it anyway. But anything and maybe that's the way I've approached it is everything is a bonus to me. The SR&ED was a total bonus. I mean, didn't, didn't expect that one at all.[00:22:33] The youth employment grant was probably more pivotal. Um, because I knew I did want her, I, I, I don't, I don't think I could have hired her without it. So that was huge. But when you're talking about IRAP money, that is an interesting one because you have to be very, very specific on what you're doing. So here's a really good example of we've been in talks with IRAP about potential projects and things like that.[00:23:01] Just as, as advisors through IRAP are supposed to have conversations with companies like us, about. And, um, there's been a couple of times where we've moved ahead quickly enough that the program wouldn't have caught up with us. Like we would have had to apply for a program, but by the time the money had come up, we would have already built it.[00:23:22] It would have already been done. Like we're like now we're beyond that. We're going on to the next thing. but that could have been a spot where we could have delayed it. Cause it was like, Oh, we'll just wait for that IRAP money. Yeah. Wait for the grant, wait for the incentive to come out and then yada, yada.[00:23:37] So I think you're absolutely right. As, um, specifically someone in like my seat, you can get so distracted and that was actually leading into the other thing I wanted to talk about too, was these contests. And these, um, purses and pockets of money were like these pitch contests[00:23:57] and I will tell you, especially as a female founder, there are so many that are targeted at me. Like in any given week, I am getting probably five to six emails about something that somebody would like us to apply for and be part of, and I'm that, that can be[00:24:22] Jonathan: Oh, yeah. Cause I mean the, yeah, it's the point of every business is to enter pitch competitions and.[00:24:29] Angela: I can't I can't I'm so, um, and last year he got caught up in that a little bit. I will say, like, there was a couple, I probably entered four or five, um, unsuccessfully in most cases, but. This year it was one thing I told myself. I was like, you're not doing that this year. You're not entering these competitions.[00:24:49] You're not entering these contests. Um, you're focusing on the work that you need to do. I believe that the success will naturally come if it's meant to be. Um, but by distracting me getting up on stage and giving pitches and trying to sell me and the company to a bunch of people is just.[00:25:09] Who are not, let's be very clear. These people are not my customers at all. Like not even close, um, just there was no value in it for me, or very little value, I should say, because there, there is, there is monetary value to it, but, and the chances of success are so low.[00:25:26] Jonathan: Yeah.[00:25:27] Angela: Yeah. So anyway, 2020 is the year where we focus on a product and we do not focus on contests.[00:25:34]The Oppression of Pants[00:25:35] Nora. my youngest went horseback riding for the first time when she was out in Saskatchewan[00:25:41] Nora doesn't like to wear pants a lot and she's potty training.[00:25:44] So she's in panties all the time. And so she, so she rode a horse for the very first time. Bear back in panties. It was so cute.[00:25:59] Jonathan: why should we have to live under the oppression of pants,[00:26:02]Angela: Nora's words,[00:26:05] I no like pants

Show NotesWe talk about being a social enterprise, how long the journey can take for start-ups, and Angela reports back on the pricing exercise that she undertook to find the "right" price for Clinnect. Starting out initially as a government funded project, this company had a few roadblocks to overcome in becoming an incorporated for profit business; along with the typical issues to overcome like sustainability, scalability, and revenue.Healthcare issues are complex and Clinnect had to learn to focus on issues, we delve into the pros and cons of trying to find a niche product to address a narrow, but important, issue.Find Us OnlineAngela Hapke - @angelahapke - https://www.clinnect.caJonathan Bowers - @thejonotron - https://www.twostoryrobot.comCreditsProduced by Jonathan Bowers and Angela HapkeMusic by Andrew Codeman (CC BY 3.0)TranscriptJonathan: Wait, I want to get one of those. Um, I think, do you think in the audio world they use those, those clacker things like in the movies, those, um,[00:00:07] Angela: It's called the castanet.[00:00:09] Jonathan: it's called a castanet? You know the word for that?[00:00:12] Angela: Like the clackers like that.[00:00:14] Jonathan: No, no, no, no. The thing at the beginning of a movie where they go, you know, act one or scene four, take three.[00:00:19] And they[00:00:20] Angela: Oh, I don't know what those are.[00:00:21] Jonathan: Uh, I think[00:00:22] Angela: Sorry. I couldn't see you when you were, when you were saying it. And that's[00:00:27] Jonathan: a castanet are those tiny little symbols on your fingers, or that we should get one of those cat little castanets[00:00:35] Angela: I have. I have some, because my, um, my daughter uses them for music class.[00:00:42]Introduction[00:00:46] Hi, I'm Angela Hapke.[00:00:47]Jonathan: and I'm Jonathan Bowers and you're listening to Fixing Faxes, building a digital health startup[00:00:53] Angela: and we just got some new mics.[00:00:55] Jonathan: New Mics! Uh, This is episode five. We've recorded the first four episodes on our headphones. No, what are these called?[00:01:05] Angela: headphones[00:01:06] Jonathan: No, these aren't, these aren't[00:01:07] headphones.[00:01:08] Angela: like the standard headphones that you get with your Apple iPhone.[00:01:12]Jonathan: Right?[00:01:12]but now we've got these great new, uh, very cheap, the cheapest ones. We could find Audio-Technica 2005USBs as recommended by basically every podcast blog I could find. Um, but they were sold out.[00:01:27] Angela: Well, and I didn't do any research. You did all the research and you, I just said, tell me which ones to buy.[00:01:33] Jonathan: Yes, but you found where to buy them because they're sold out everywhere.[00:01:38] Angela: I know, I know the weird places to buy things.[00:01:43] Jonathan: So that was helpful because I was starting to panic that we were going to have to buy $300 microphones instead of a hundred dollar microphones.[00:01:50] Angela: well, the package was $200.[00:01:53] Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it comes with the, it comes with the boom arm and the monitoring headphones. Um, the Princess Lea headphones. They, they hurt my, hurt my ears just a little bit. Cause I like, do you notice[00:02:07] Angela: The glasses. yeah, they dig into your head.[00:02:10]Jonathan:  I've been wearing them a lot the[00:02:12] Angela: Oh, have you,[00:02:13] Jonathan: doing all my Zoom meetings like this with the microphone.[00:02:16] Angela: Is everybody commenting on the quality?[00:02:18] Jonathan: loves it. Uh, Yeah, everyone is saying Wow it sounds so good. And now Chris wants to get a microphone. He's he's got microphone envy.[00:02:27] Angela: That's definitely a thing in, in, and Zoom COVID days. Microphone and camera envy.[00:02:35] Jonathan: I, uh, we had a client meeting this morning and, uh, cause you can see the boom and the mic in the video call. And he says, Hey, what's that? I told them about the podcast and he holds up his really expensive microphone and say, well, let's. Let's compare. This is not, that's not[00:02:51] Angela: You're like, no. How about not?[00:02:54] Jonathan: he's got one of those pop filters and I think it's like a really cool condenser mic.[00:02:58] It is just sitting on his desk though. So he doesn't have the arm,[00:03:02] Angela: see, I don't know. This arm is like I'm that's most of what I love about this.[00:03:09] Pricing RevisitedJonathan: Uh, you know, what we need to talk about so speaking of the prices of things, so this being $200 and us thinking about, um, wanting to buy cheap. So this felt like the right amount of money to spend for where we are at in terms of our journey as podcasters. Um, but in the, in, uh, I think episode three,[00:03:29] Angela: I think it's episode three.[00:03:30] Jonathan: gave you some homework to go and use the Van Westendorp.[00:03:35] Pricing meter or price, price, sensitivity,[00:03:39] Angela: Price sensitivity meter.[00:03:41]Jonathan: Which is basically four questions that help you understand the pricing of a product. What are the results?[00:03:48] Angela: Okay. Uh, so, so we made the survey and I put it in linked it in an email, and then I just use my, my personal contact list and sent it out to a bunch of primary care providers and specialists that I know that I would hope that I could kind of ask a personal favor to[00:04:04] um, I sent it out to about 30 people, uh, nine or 10 of them got back to us. And there was some big trends showing up. So what you, what you have to understand is the four questions really kind of give you an idea of like the absolute basement. I wouldn't buy this because it's, it would be so cheap that it doesn't have any value all the way up to ,this is way too expensive for what I think the product is. So those are two questions and then the other two questions help kind of narrow in the, the, the sweet spot. So, um, just, , like what would you pay that's I, I think they use the word bargain and then what would you pay? And the, they use the word expensive.[00:04:44]And so what we did is we took all the responses, we plotted them on the sensitivity meter and before I say what the, it came out to be, I think last time, I guess, that it would be around $25.[00:05:02] Jonathan: Yes. I don't remember if that's recorded, but you guessed that it was going to be $25.[00:05:07] Angela: Well, and I I just figured it would be cheap enough that I could like, and I think maybe I was thinking that would be pretty, a pretty cheap price. So the price sensitivity meter put us in a large enough range of people, like on a, like a distribution graph. That would pay for Clinnect on a monthly subscription based model, between $50 and $75.[00:05:35] Jonathan: more than what you had thought.[00:05:37] Angela: A little bit more than what I thought now let's back that up. I think the original guesstimate that I gave, um, didn't have all the features that we were going to include in the basic model anyway. So we've upped the basic model to be kind of a basic plus model. And then what we did is we gave a really quick video on what we have in the product right now, and what features are coming within that basic model.[00:06:04]Then ask them to do, to answer the four questions. So we gave them a really good idea of what they're going to get for, for their money.[00:06:10] Jonathan: I love that you went out and talked with people[00:06:12] Angela: yeah,[00:06:13] Jonathan: feedback that was, uh, w would you say it was more encouraging to get those answers back the way you did?[00:06:20] Angela: I think when you build a product, your scared to price it, I think that's a scary thing to price it because now you're building a product, but now you're actually asking a very specific amount of money for it and asking people to take that out to their pocket and give it to you. So it was, it was a very, very vulnerable exercise for me.[00:06:42] And, um, yeah, I was nervous to do it. So happy I did though. Like, yeah, just so yeah, really, really good feedback really. And actually. Even since then it's caused a couple of people to come back at me and ask me like further questions and things like that, which is really great. Yeah. Like one of them was asking about, um, and not to get into the nitty gritty of it, but, well, how many users are you going to have per account?[00:07:09] And are you going to charge per users? Are you going to cut charge per account and with so many users and yada yada yada. So she had already started to get it into her head and was asking really good questions. And I said that I was like, Ooh, you've zeroed in on something that we've been talking about a lot.[00:07:23] And so I used that interaction then to ask her, I said, well, we're thinking about this. What do you think? And she was like, Oh yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And so just like stealing more information out of, out of everyone was yeah,[00:07:37] Jonathan: It's not stealing information.[00:07:39] Angela: not. It's it's asking your customer what they want. Yes.[00:07:44] Jonathan: Yeah. No, that's that's that's so cool. I think it's exciting that you have gone out talk to some folks, got some real feedback and got some additional feedback.[00:07:53] Angela: Yeah, highly recommend that anybody who's thinking and being scared about the pricing process, just ask.[00:08:00] Jonathan: I like that the, that price sensitivity model a van Westendorp is, is those questions. Cause you can just take it kind of copy and paste it, put it in there, remove some of the emotion a little bit, because it's not like you're on the phone talking with someone. You can just send this out somewhat anonymously.[00:08:15] It's not really anonymous, but you kind of send it out and it just removes that awkwardness and weirdness. And that anxiety, anxiety that you might feel.[00:08:23] Angela: Yeah. And I think that's exactly what I was feeling. So when I put it into a survey and I just, I think I threw it into Google forms or something like that and sent it out and just said, and I didn't ask for any identifying information. So, and actually said that right away, like, I'm not asking for your name.[00:08:38] Will you, you know that I know you were like participant number one, you can kind of anonymous anonymously do it. And I think that felt good for both myself and who I was asking to do it because these were for my personal contact list. So they know me quite well.[00:08:55]3 Years in the Making[00:08:55] Jonathan: what you want us to talk about today was the product development journey of Clinnect.[00:09:03] Angela: I want to talk about that today because. Up to this point, we've been talking a lot about like either current state or, um, like what we're doing right now. Hence the pricing thing and things like that. But I wanted to give a little bit of background about how we got to where we've got to and how long that journey took and how we've navigated along the way.[00:09:28] Um, just so maybe people listening can understand what that journey typically looks like, because so often we read, you know, success stories and you kind of get the story from the success on and not so much the really nitty gritty crap that led you up to that. And I'm not saying that our journey has had a lot of crap in it, but it's been a lot of, a lot of bumps along the way.[00:09:52] And I think talking about that, um, is hopefully good for people to hear. And, and maybe if they're in the middle of that keeps them, keeps them motivated to keep going.[00:10:05]Jonathan: how long of a journey has it been?[00:10:06] Angela: It has been three and a half years to now.[00:10:13] Jonathan: Till now, and we've[00:10:14] Angela: And we've just launched.[00:10:15] Jonathan: launched.[00:10:16] Angela: Yeah.[00:10:17] Jonathan: And we've only, we've only really been building, building the product, uh, for three[00:10:23] Angela: Three months. Yeah. Two or three months. Yup. Yup. Yeah. And we just launched three weeks ago.[00:10:30] Jonathan: you didn't have the goal of creating Clinnect[00:10:34] Angela: Nope. Nope, absolutely[00:10:36] Jonathan: w What was step one?[00:10:38] Angela: Uh, at the time I was working, um, at the hospital here in Kamloops as a project manager. And there was a, there was some government funding coming out for innovative projects that were led by physicians. And so there was a group of physicians in Kamloops, uh, the general surgeons that wanted to apply for this money.[00:11:01] But they needed to have a project manager attached to it. And at the time I was working four days a week, um, and was recommended to them too, that maybe I could take this project on for the fifth day.[00:11:15]Jonathan: This was a side hustle.[00:11:16]Angela: Total side hustle. And so what it started off as. Was the general surgeons in town really just wanted a place to centralize all of the referrals and pool them.[00:11:29] So equally distribute, distribute them or unequally distribute them purposefully, uh, among each of them. And so I thought, Ooh, that's kind of a cool project. I would love to try something like that. So that's where we started out. We got funding, um, in the beginning just to kind of do. Like analysis stuff, like typical government funding, you know, go out and do your, your SWOT analysis and your needs analysis and understand, you know, current state, blah, blah, blah.[00:11:58]We already kind of knew what we wanted and it seemed to fit with the analysis. So then we started to build a very manual process for centralizing referrals from primary care providers in the Kamloops catchment area, um, for general surgery. So we started that in August of 2017.[00:12:20] So that's coming up on three years ago. It was by December that year that we realized that we were, we might be onto something. The process that we were building along with the data that we were grabbing was becoming talked about a lot, not necessarily our data, but, um, in the, in the way of like wait time, data and referrals and centralized processes and things like that.[00:12:44]We also thought that maybe it would get absorbed by like a health authority or ministry or something like that. So we built it in that way that we thought, well, somebody else will take this on in the end.[00:12:55]Jonathan: As in, like, just take over, take over whatever process you've defined?[00:12:59] Angela: And there was a lot of advisors even advising us down that road was that if you build a good enough process, the, the health authority of the ministry will, will likely, um, grab that and integrate it into some kind of workflow that they already have. So we got pushed back on that.[00:13:18]Jonathan: From the health authorities?[00:13:21] Angela: So what ended up happening in about the same time that we were doing all of this, we incorporated Central Referral Solutions. So when a government funded project gets incorporated, some eyebrows get raised sometimes, and it wasn't an overly popular thing to do. Um, but we needed to do it for ourselves.[00:13:45] Like we were, there was a lot of us that were, that were, you know, shareholders in it or like stakeholders at the time and shareholders now. And we, yeah, we just kind of thought that we were onto something. So we incorporated, and so then we were seen as this, like this corporate entity that, you know, and there was just this push pull.[00:14:06] We were also starting to talk about wait times in a way that wasn't overly palatable at the time, because we wanted to talk about the whole wait time journey. And I think we'll probably do we'll deep dive into that at another time. Yeah. Yeah, because there's, that's a whole episode in and of itself, I think right[00:14:28] Jonathan: Well then we'll save that for another[00:14:30] Angela: Yeah. and then at the end, you know, when we started to bump into things, people weren't really overly welcoming to take this on from a health authority or a ministry, um, perspective. Uh, we decided to monetize it because that made the most sense. Um, and in a way that we knew we were a social enterprise, uh, we still incorporated and things like that.[00:14:52]A For Profit Social Enterprise[00:14:52]Jonathan: So you're a for profit[00:14:54] Angela: Yup.[00:14:55] Jonathan: company, right. Your company. So that by definition is for profit, but a social enterprise[00:15:00] Angela: but a social enterprise. So a social enterprise has not investors and making money at its core ethos, but rather, um, a social good at its core ethos and its core philosophy. And for us that we're not out to make a ton of money to make a change in a system.[00:15:22] And so that's why we call ourselves a social enterprise, but we are for profit. And I think that's another reason that it's been so hard to try and explain who we are and what we are. And especially in the beginning, because we weren't maybe even comfortable in her own skin in saying that. And I'm, now that I'm like saying it, I'm like, I don't even know if I still am.[00:15:41]Um, but. We knew that we knew that we were onto something, but we also knew that we could make a lot of good with it and do a lot of good with it.[00:15:48] Jonathan: Um, I mean, I, I agree with you, like I've, I've, I, I've done a bit of mentoring with social enterprises, mostly in the non profit side of things. And one of the things that they often struggle with is how to be sustainable, how to, how to do what they're doing. And, um, yeah, I guess scale that up. Right? So there's, so they're often so dependent on grants and they spend so much time just applying for grant money and not revenue from some product or service that they're offering that can, that can sustain the growth of this social thing that they're trying to do. Some, some organizations are very, very good at this. Most struggle. So you're describing, uh, an organization that is almost engineered in a way too, to be sustainable. There's the profit side, which sustains itself and sustains its growth activities. And then the the impact of the, um, of the activities you do have, have a social good. But you do have to monetize that, which you talked about, uh, just a second ago, you said you're trying to monetize it.[00:16:55] walk me through that a little bit. at a basic level, I think people can understand, like we're charging for the service,[00:17:00] Angela: Yes. So maybe what I'll do is I'll talk about a little bit about how we got there and I, what you just summed up doesn't happen easily and quickly, um, it's not as, as, as pretty as the summary that you just gave. Uh, it's usually ugly and bumpy along the way. And it has been a little bit ugly and bumpy for us along the way.[00:17:22] So what we started with was general surgery in town and I call it kind of like our R & D department is, um, we've created the central intake and the central referrals, um, to go and then be pooled among the groups of surgeons. And so in doing this, we were able to trial like a whole bunch of different types of workflows.[00:17:41] We were able to even trial, like the way we say things, which in healthcare can be the, be all and end all of things. Yeah.[00:17:48] Jonathan: Say things to, to patients or[00:17:50] Angela: okay. Well even just like literally the wording that would be on a referral form. Yeah. The impression that that word gives when you read it versus what you, the intended meaning versus what maybe the reader means.[00:18:04] And we've actually had a couple bumps along that way. Also the development of categories, referral categories. And we've talked a little bit about this in the past, but like Clinnect itself has started to create the idea that we should have a very strict set of categories that referrals come in. And like, even that we trialed with general surgery. Just really help in helping us understand what does a wait time mean? And then we've also done a little bit of consulting to help us gain even further insight. And we always say that. You know that this further insight will just help us develop the product even more. So in doing all of this with general surgery, kind of being our R & D department, we were able to go, okay, we have this, we were able to get a really nice workflow going, except.[00:18:53] It wasn't scalable. It wasn't sustainable. We were hitting we're bumping into exactly what you're talking about with, you know, the social enterprises and not being able to maybe get over that hump. We were able to get over that hump with Clinnect. And so that's where we were able to say, you know what, now we are, we are an incorporated company.[00:19:12] We are a social enterprise and we are going to be charging for a product. And that is Clinnect. And we were able to kind of take all of the learnings. Through doing this with general surgery over the past three years and finally build something.[00:19:25]Jonathan: When you say it was not scalable. I imagine that means, uh, it's very dependent on manual labor?[00:19:32] Angela: Yeah. Almost entirely dependent on manual labor. So when the workflows were, um, disjointed, so it required somebody to do one thing in this one software, take it over here and do another thing in this other software and then take it over here and do X, Y, and Z with it from there. nothing was automated, nothing was overly efficient.[00:19:55] There's room for error when you have a human doing all of this. So, it was way too expensive to have somebody doing this. So learning all of that is why we built Clinnect. Because we knew we were onto something and then just taking all those learnings and then automating them.[00:20:10] And it took a long, took really long time to figure that out and what that should look like.[00:20:15] Jonathan: I think, I mean, I think it's interesting to tie that back to the pricing a little bit like the, um, what Clinnect can do for 50 or $75 a month, how much work would that take a person to do?[00:20:27]Angela: So we priced that out because we were looking at doing exactly that and it sits around the 400 to $450 a month.[00:20:34] Jonathan: Right. So, so the, I mean, ultimately the value that's being created here is around $300 a month.[00:20:45] Angela: Which is pretty neat.[00:20:46]Jonathan: okay. Think back to my economics. What does that piece, when you draw the, when you draw the diagram and in that difference there that's the[00:20:55] Angela: I know exactly what you're talking about, but I cannot remember[00:20:59] Jonathan: We've forgotten so much of our MBA,[00:21:01]Angela: I think you learn about that in first year, business degrees.[00:21:06] Jonathan: I know my MBA was a lot of first year business stuff cause I didn't take business.[00:21:11] Angela: neither. Oh, my goodness. I love it.[00:21:15]Lessons Learned in 3 Years[00:21:15]Jonathan: So this has been a three year journey. We've we've really just started it's. Um, but it has been three years. So what, what are some of the other, um, some of the other lessons that you maybe have picked up in those three years, besides, you know, besides some of the domain specific stuff around the problem that you're solving.[00:21:37]Angela: I think what we learned big time as there's no quick fixes in healthcare. I was a little bit naive and we first did the project that I was like, Oh, we're going to do this and we'll fix this right away.[00:21:48] And there's just, yeah, there's just no quick fixes. good fixes take a long time in healthcare. They require a lot of thought and a lot of understanding because the, the problems can be so complex. Um, and it's hard to narrow in on problems because. In healthcare, there's so many other problems gleaming around that problem.[00:22:13]So that was kind of another thing that we learned is, you know, laser focus on the one thing that you want to change and go for it. And there was a few times, even you, would I be sitting in a meeting with you and I would have another idea for something else. And you would say, okay, you need to be laser-focused, Angela. I was like, right, right. I need to do that. So that was, that was.[00:22:36]Jonathan: Clinnect does feel very focused. even in some of the, planning meetings, it, we start talking about some features and some things that start to start to lose some of the focus, but yeah, it starts to broaden, broaden that scope of it. But at its core, it's a very focused product.[00:22:51] Angela: And I like that. And I think that that's a really hard thing when you're getting into healthcare solutions. It is really hard not to go for a bunch of things at the same time, but I think you're going to have a better success rate. If you really laser focus on, on kind of one solution, one problem, one solution, and then go from there and you can always build out afterwards, but, you know, try and try and focus on that first.[00:23:17]Um, there's also this thing around solving problems in healthcare that can be really distracting. And especially when you're maybe working with government bodies and things like that is solutions tend to be. Um, system centric versus versus like a patient or provider centric. And you can go down kind of rabbit holes.[00:23:41] Um, That maybe at the time seemed like you're solving a solution, but you might be talking to the wrong people about what that solution should be looking like. And I think this, once again, goes back to talking to your users and talking to the real stakeholders in this meaning, patients, providers, people that are going to actually be using this stuff.[00:24:03]For us at Clinnect we definitely had the opportunity to go down that system centric solution road. It would not have felt nearly as good as what this does, because what we're doing right now is we're really working with a solution that's going to benefit, um, the broader, good, not just the system.[00:24:25] So, so there's that.[00:24:27]Ruffling Feathers in Healthcare[00:24:27] Jonathan: does that ruffle some feathers a bit?[00:24:30] Angela: Of course it does. Yes. Yeah. Um, it can be hard because healthcare is so riddled with what we've always done it that way, which can be a real big barrier to systemic change. But then it's also layered on what I found a little bit with. Um, not just, we've always done it that way, but a pride in that way that maybe they've done it.[00:24:58] And so when you're asking people to start changing workflows and changing the way that they look at it, it's a, it feels personal when it's really, it's not it's, it is systemic change, not personal change, but, um, in something like healthcare, Right. I just feel like there's so much passion in their jobs and their work and their, and, and things like that, that people can get really defensive very quickly.[00:25:24] Um, when you're suggesting maybe bigger changes. Yeah. I think also for me, it has been surrounding myself with people that know way more than me.[00:25:38] In multiple facets. I think of, you know, even my, my, so my cofounders are general surgeons and, obviously they know way more than me when it comes to medical stuff. Then, , I partnered with, uh, with you guys at Two Story Robot and you guys know way more than me when it comes to tech stuff and yeah, just surrounding yourself with people that, that are amazing experts in their different domains really helps.[00:26:07] And it also like it doesn't put the pressure on, you know, the founder or the CEO to come up with all the solutions, but rather just, if you surround yourself with people who know better than you, then it, it helps also surrounding yourself with really good people because you will get beat up and you will fail and you will have to get yourself back up and you might sometimes need a need, a hand to get back up and[00:26:30] Jonathan: Yeah, I need a little reminder that, uh, why you're in this in the first place.[00:26:34] Angela: Yeah, yeah, for sure.[00:26:38]We Have Great Reviews![00:26:38]Thanks for listening to Fixing Faxes, building a digital health startup. I'm Angela Hapke. And my cohost is Jonathan Bowers. Music by Andrew Codeman. Follow us on Twitter at @FixingFaxes. You can find us wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And please do us a favor tell a friend. Thanks for listening.[00:26:55]Jonathan: Did you see the other review that we have?[00:26:58] Angela: My husband.[00:26:59] Jonathan: it came up.[00:27:06] Angela: He is, he's like her biggest fan .[00:27:08] Jonathan: I'm going to steal a joke from Bronwyn, uh, he's such a fan, he married one of the hosts.

Show NotesPricing a new product is hard to do and requires that you step outside your comfort zone. We talk about freemium and why we don't want to build a free product. How we might figure out a good price. And the 4 Ps of marketing.Warning. We say "pee" and "poop".Fact CheckWe discuss the"P's of Marketing", despite both having an MBA we cannot remember which they are. The term we are discussing is Marketing Mix, which is the 4 P's of marketing: Product, Price, Place, and Promotion. Developed by E. Jerome McCarthy in the 1960's, and has been a staple of any University Marketing class.The term "Freemium" is used a lot in this episode, a good introductory read on the topic done by the Harvard Business Review. It is a concept introduced in the 1980's but gained popularity around 2010. Clinnect briefly considered this route with the product until we realized the product was too valuable with the minimum feature set to be a free product.In this episode we delve into definitions around patient referral intakes, such as central intake vs pooled referrals vs directories, etc. The Canadian Medical Association uses a policy statement to define the use, however it does not take into account the use of algorithms, which Clinnect has now introduced this into landscape.The pricing strategy exercise that we discuss at the end is the Van Westendorp Pricing Model. The exercise includes surveying potential customers to see where the "sweet spot" for pricing is, the questions are worded well to incite the right responses, yet you have the flexibility to tailor to your product. The final results are in as of the time this episode airs, but you will have to wait a couple episodes to find out!Find Us OnlineAngela Hapke - @angelahapke - https://www.clinnect.caJonathan Bowers - @thejonotron - https://www.twostoryrobot.comCreditsProduced by Jonathan Bowers and Angela HapkeMusic by Andrew Codeman (CC BY 3.0)Transcript[00:00:00] Jonathan: So I'm wearing, um, Hokas. I don't know if you're familiar with the brand of shoe.[00:00:05] Angela: Nope, but they look very nice Jonathan.[00:00:07] Jonathan: They have, they have these really thick, thick sole, I just don't wear them running very much. So they're just kind of sitting around and I thought, Oh, these shoes are good. Like they're good shoes.[00:00:17] Angela: are good podcasting shoes.[00:00:18] Jonathan: Yeah. So they're my podcasting shoes, I put them on before we record a podcast in case I need to stand. Hi, my name is Jonathan Bowers. I am the CEO of Two Story Robot, a software development company, helping Angela and CRS built a product. And my son just pooped in a potty for the first time.[00:00:37] Angela: That's amazing.[00:00:40] Jonathan: willingly. Well, so not willingly.[00:00:43] He. Just before bath uh bath time is like my routine with him. So we go in the tub and he's bathing and he's kind of squatting in the tub playing around and he's pooped in the tub, three or four times. And I try not to make a big deal out of it, but when I do, I often like just kind of yell and it scares them a bit. So I tried not to do that when he started to grunt, as he was squatting down in the toilet, like, Oh, okay, let's get out, do a quick, dry off.[00:01:10] And then we put him, put him on the potty and he sits there and plays with his toes and plays with the handle and and out comes, a poop.[00:01:17] Angela: And Jonathan, how old is Zack?[00:01:19] Jonathan: He's 17 months old now.[00:01:22]it's pretty fun.[00:01:22] Angela: so happy for you.[00:01:27] I am.[00:01:27]Hi, I'm Angela Hapke and I am the CEO of Central Referral Solutions. The company that has launched Clinnect and I cleaned poop out of my almost three year olds pants, five times in the last few days.[00:01:46] Jonathan: Oh my goodness. Is this a regression? Is this some kind of anxiety induced thing because of some change in school or is it[00:01:55] Angela: yeah, you don't, you don't know my daughter is pure, "I don't give an F. I am way too busy. Digging for worms and playing and in the sandbox to worry about the poop I've just had in my pants. " But then she's upset with herself afterwards. So we do have progress. The shame is there. Oh yeah. So we just want her to not feel that and just go poo on the potty[00:02:31] Jonathan: So tell me, tell me, uh, how can I, how can I segue[00:02:36] Angela: are we segueing from peeing[00:02:38] Jonathan: and pooing pants?[00:02:40] Into pricing. the three P's pee, poo, and pricing.[00:02:45] Angela: I'm very sure I learned that in my MBA.[00:02:47]Jonathan:  I think it's product, um, product pricing and position no, position pricing and p-p-p-p . So tell me about pricing. So you originally originally Clinnect, maybe not originally, but one of the ideas was that Clinnect was going to, there was going to be some free aspect of, of Clinnect[00:03:09]Pricing[00:03:09] Angela: Definitely! We were about, um, just over a year ago. We were discussing this. And at that time, the whole freemium idea was, um, I don't want to say it was hot because it was a little bit old by then, but it was definitely something that was well understood and well used in the, in the, in the tech industry was the whole freemium idea.[00:03:35] So we wanted to take that idea and shifted over to, um, healthcare software, which isn't really done except in more like the, the consumer, um, models.[00:03:46]Then I had a few conversations with a few people about this. And while, you know, we had floated it by the, the users, the future potential users and they were all for it. but I had like a conversation with a, a bit of a mentor of mine and he had very strong opinions about freemium products and, um, he kind of just said to me, Angela, Why would you ever give anything away for free?[00:04:13] Like, could you at least just charge 30 bucks a month for it? Why would you ever just give it away for free? I just think that model's so ridiculous. I kind of hit me a little hard because I was like, wow. Geez, everybody's doing it. That's what I thought we would do too. But it got me thinking in and about the users that I, that I have. And, um, it did make a lot of sense. I was like, yeah, honestly, to my customers, what is 20 bucks a month to them? You know, it's a few Starbucks coffees.[00:04:46] Jonathan: Well, and I think, I think also if they're not, if they don't see the value in it enough to give up the 20 bucks. Or 30 bucks or whatever it is, then either the value isn't enough or, you know, maybe it's, you know, maybe the customers are just not great customers[00:05:03] for us. and[00:05:04] we don't, you know, we don't want those.[00:05:06] We don't want the people that don't recognize that it's valuable.[00:05:09] Angela: exactly. Exactly. And, and it was. I don't want to say it was a bit insulting to our customer to give it away for free, and then just give them like the bare, bare, bare minimum. Um, but I felt like it kind of was because we do have a bit of a sophisticated customer. So, uh, so that's when I decided that I would launch with a free trial period.[00:05:37] And especially for our first users, because they're just there, they're our beta customers that were there working with us and figuring a lot of this out.[00:05:45] Jonathan: The value in that first, those first few customers is heavily slanted towards us and less so towards them[00:05:52] because we're[00:05:52] Angela: why, that's why the original groups are getting along free trial period with us. And then, um, that'll shorten as we get, uh, kind of just different tweaks and things smoothed out. so I figured when we launched, we would go with a, like a, a low cost model basic model first and then have premium, uh, features that we would add on for an additional premium price.[00:06:18] And so that's actually how I went out and sold it to groups is I said, I said to them, we're going to give you, , like six months a free. Free for you guys to use for six months. , and then, you know, right away through like, well, how much is it going to cost us when the free trial is over?[00:06:36] And I haven't never given, a stuck price on it. I haven't given a firm price on it at all. I've said it'll be anywhere between kind of that 10 to $25 a month, which nobody has batted an eye at. 10 to $25 a month for the basic product.[00:06:54][00:06:54] Jonathan: The market size for this at the moment doesn't appear to be super huge. So, you know, to have, uh, Even a hundred dollars a month as the base plan. That's not that doesn't, that doesn't make a very sustainable business.[00:07:08] Angela: No, I mean, it's one, it's one product and it's um, yeah, it's not going to make us millions and millions of dollars, I think that's when it gets interesting as to, yeah, it might, it might, it might anchor us to low. I'm willing to take that risk at this point right now, given, the forward momentum by a lot of companies to do the type of thing that we're doing.[00:07:37]Central Intake[00:07:37] Everybody's running towards central intakes, but not really knowing how to do them or how to create a sustainable model around them. What we're doing is central intake in a really easy to use fashion. Um, While others are trying to figure out how to be, how to do it, how to do a central intake and how to be sustainable.[00:08:01] Jonathan: Who were you talking about as the others? Like, do you mean like competitors or,[00:08:05] Angela: some competitors. So like some EMRs are looking at to creating what they call a central intake. But when you do a deep dive into what they're calling a central intake, it's not really a central intake and it certainly isn't a pooled referral.[00:08:21] Jonathan: Right. Yeah. what would be the differentiator between Clinnect and some of these other attempts at central intake? So you mentioned, you mentioned like, um, pooled referral. Yes. But like in what other ways are they not really central intake?[00:08:37] Angela: Okay, so let's back up and we'll talk about define these. So central, what is the central intake? It's one place for patient referrals to a particular specialty to go.[00:08:50]If you need to send your patient for a knee like a knee consult, you would send it to a central intake would be considered one fax number that all the ortho surgeons use to get all their, um, referrals in one spot. That's a central intake.[00:09:11] So that's handy-ish for a lot of groups. Who are just trying to track some wait time data, understand what the referral demand is, blah, blah, blah.[00:09:22] A pooled referral is typically paired with a central intake. So it's kind of like central intake's, like baseline and pooled referral's like the next step that you take. And that's where I, as a primary care provider want to send him my patient referral for a knee. I can send it in on typically a standardized form.[00:09:44] That has like a choose for me button or box that I check off where I don't have to choose the surgeon. I don't have to know all the surgeons in the region. And it goes into a pooled referral of which somebody assigns, um, a surgeon to that referral. So Clinnects differentiator, is it as both a central intake, a pooled referral.[00:10:11] But we do not rely on someone and their potential biases and things like that to assign it, or even just like kind of a picking like next, next, next. But we have a specific algorithm that runs in the background that can be, um, controlled by like tweaks of the dial to ensure that that referral goes to the right surgeon.[00:10:42] And has a way to balance or purposefully imbalance those referrals to each surgeon. The the other, the other one is the confirmation that the primary care provider receives. Some competitors or are starting to do that a little bit, that kind of that back and forth.[00:11:00] Um, but with ours, it's central intake, pooled referrals, and confirmations back. And then plus hopefully a whole set of other features in the future.[00:11:12]Jonathan: So the, on the topic of pricing though,[00:11:14] Angela: The basic plan includes the ability to send a referral to a specialist in a pooled way. So you have a choose for me option. So you don't have to know who's who So we're doing a Clinnect is sending referrals in, um, a far more secure way than we've seen in the past.[00:11:36] Um, certainly over fax machines, but even more so over some, um, the way that, uh, some competitors are using it. so it's a secure way to send a referral. You don't have to choose a specific surgeon and you receive a confirmation back with the surgeon's name or a specialist's name.[00:11:55]and then on the specialists end they have the ability actually, sorry, on both ends, you have the ability to historically track those referrals as to when it was sent, who it was sent to. And all that data is incredibly important when you're looking at wait times and things like that, because it captures that go date and that go time.[00:12:16] And then on the surgeon is, um, specialist's end you have a dashboard that shows you all your referrals that you have received. They're categorized their urgency coded. Um, and in our basic product, we are allowing the ability to re categorize and re urgency code or switch urgency codes on those referrals to ensure once again, because we have an algorithm running in the background that everything is copacetic on the, on, on the backend too.[00:12:52]Meaning if a a primary care provider sent through a whole bunch of hernias and only like two of them were hernias, they're going to initially get allocated as hernias in a balanced way. Um, but they weren't hernias. So when we recategorized, then it can, can change that.[00:13:10] Jonathan: And that I know, I know we try not to use the word triage, but is, is that what you would have considered triage, where they're coming in and, and you're sort of re categorizing things that were mistakenly categorized and, and adjusting the urgency.[00:13:27]It's not Triage[00:13:27] Angela: So , we are careful with using the word triage because triage assumes that there's been medical eyes on it. So meaning that the, the surgeon has taken a look at it, or the specialist has taken a look at it and actually done their categorization and their urgency. So we don't know for sure that that's being done so we don't call it triaging. We call it categorization.[00:13:46] Um, so the baseline product includes your, um, your login to our secure system that has dashboards with historical referral tracking an algorithm that runs in the background and ability to choose a surgeon or have the, the, um, system choose for you. And on the specialist end the ability to accept or reject that referral. So, that's huge because in the past, Uh, in kind of like old workflows is that acceptance or rejection of referrals was a long antiquated process of either getting something, on your computer or your fax machine.[00:14:29] And you're looking at it and you're like, Oh, this doesn't apply to us. We need to send it back and having a phone call and that re faxing and yada, yada, yada. So[00:14:39]Jonathan: So what's the plan for some of the things that we know will be in the premium? Cause I think, I think a lot of the premium features are yet to be discovered because people aren't using a system like this yet, which is exciting.[00:14:50] Right. We get to, we get to be at the front of this and see, you know, you know, moving to a more digital process. Um, A more secure process and a lot of, you know, a lot more efficient process. We get to understand what some of the, some of the new pains that, uh, MOAs and specialists will start to encounter and primary care providers.[00:15:10] But what are some of the things that we know are going to be part of that more premium[00:15:17] Premium Feature SetAngela: I think number one is, is, um, a communication method or a messaging system back and forth because of the, the reason that I just exp or the example that I just gave to you about, maybe you receive a referral. And it's inappropriate or it's missing pieces, or it's not a complete referral and you're, you're trying to put it together and you just need to do a quick message back to the primary care provider.[00:15:43] So instead of picking up the phone wasting, you know, maybe a few more minutes of your time interrupting the very busy person on the other end of the line, you can just send a quick message within the system back and forth. And, uh, potentially allowing attachments with that messaging system. We haven't talked about that as to whether that'll be included in this, in the next premium release or not, but doing something along that line.[00:16:12] Um, and then, so that's a big one. That's huge. That would be, um, I think something that people would find incredibly valuable[00:16:22]Jonathan: and at one point we were talking about the, pooled referral and being able to be deliberate in balancing or imbalancing, those referrals is that and giving the specialists the ability to tweak the dial, so to speak.[00:16:36]Angela: And that's the one that I'm waiting to hear feedback from the specialists on after using our product for a little bit is what does that exactly look like? So I can think of lots of examples where you'd want to tweak the dials. Um, I'm going to go off on mat leave. I am, slowing down my practice. I'm on the verge of retirement. we have, we have a specialist right now that goes away for a few months, um, per year on, he does like doctors without borders for.[00:17:07] I think it's three months, every year. And so he wants to turn off all urgents and then turn them back on. Um, there's just a whole bunch of examples. And then, and then once we get into being able to tweak the dials, then we get into some interesting conversations around wait times and how groups can work together.[00:17:30] To start balancing their wait times based on the categories that they've already defined. And those referrals are already coming in at. So they have that tracked data and they know their demand for each category of referrals and starting to get some balance around wait times they can't do that right now because number one, it's, um, referrals don't come in categorized. When a referral comes into a specialist office, it's not given a category,[00:18:00]Jonathan: the category comes in with the referral. That's something that the primary care provider needs to specify[00:18:06] Angela: correct. There would be, um, a reason for referral.[00:18:13]So a lot of EMRs, would kind of autofill a, um, an initial diagnosis for them. But EMRs, are different. Doctors are different and sometimes you wouldn't put the same wording in as your counterpart.[00:18:31]And so it's kind of all over the map. It helps the specialists because they, they understand it, they see it and they go, Oh, okay. Then, you know, that looks like it's urgent, we should get them in right away. Or, ah, you know, I think that's a bit of something that could wait a few weeks and, and whatnot, but there was no standardized categories for referrals.[00:18:52] This is, what's what we're starting.[00:18:55] Jonathan: So we've got a standardized list that the primary care provider picks from, but it's still, it's still on them to make that initial categorization, which they could get wrong.[00:19:04] Angela: Oh yeah. That's why this is why it's important for us to have the feature in for the specialist to re category something, categorize something. So something comes in. this, um, kind of all encompassing category that because they're not really a hundred percent sure. So they're going to put it as, you know, abdominal pain. Um, whereas, you know, specialist's going to look at it and be able to even quickly look at what's happening in the history and go, Oh, that's, we're specifically this, um, which is important because then that helps define their journey and.[00:19:42] You know, helps us get better with, predictions and wait times down the road. it's actually something that I kind of, I guess, now that you've, you've brought it to light, I kind of took it for granted that we were doing this referral categorization.[00:19:57] Jonathan: I just assumed that was happening. Like the way, the way we built it, I assumed that was just mimicking an existing practice,[00:20:04] Angela: No. The first beta users that we have coming on from specialty groups are building their own.[00:20:11]There are Two Customer Groups[00:20:11]Jonathan:  Um, I want to, so one of the things that we've talked about, which I think might be important to highlight is, is we have two customer groups on, in this product. And so there's the, there's the specialists where that premium feature set makes sense for right. We're charging the specialists to have access to these features.[00:20:33] there's another user. There's the primary care providers who are primarily sending, sending referrals to the specialists. How does it work for them?[00:20:42]do they pay for it?[00:20:43] Angela: Yup. Um, and this is why I've been wavering on what the price is and that's kind of why I've given it a range. Is it, may, it may happen. Likely happened that the primary care providers are a different cost than the specialist. So if you look at it from a primary care provider perspective, they get great value right off the get go.[00:21:09] They don't have to know all the surgeons in town and who's who they just have that choose for me option. They know that their, their patient referrals getting through it's confirmed. Yay. It's kind of done after that. From a referral perspective, which is the piece that we're focused on. Specialists get a little bit longer term value from that, the ability to look back at the historical, um, the algorithm that we talked extensively about, the category, the urgency, the, just the ability to almost wait list manager referral , is a longer term value. So there might be a higher cost for the, uh, specialists versus the primary care providers. We'll see. I haven't figured that out yet.[00:22:00]Jonathan: Yeah, it will be. I'm excited to, I'm excited to gather some feedback from both sides of that from both sides of that exchange. And just see, you know, see how valuable it is to have that list just there. So you don't have to think about it or look it up. Yeah. I'm hoping that there's some value in it being easier as well.[00:22:25] And it's not, I mean, I think sending a fax is probably pretty easy[00:22:29]and the confirmation, the confirmation is, that feels like an obvious value,[00:22:33] Angela: Exactly. The way that fax machines work typically with EMR right now is a lot of it is e-faxing. So there isn't a ton of, you know, the physical paper paper shuffling around and it is, they have you EMRs have made it very easy to fax it. Let's really just kind of hit the fax button.[00:22:54]I think, and that's why from a primary care provider perspective, it is very patient centric because yes, it's maybe easy to send to the general surgeon that you send to every single time, every single patient and hope that they do all the things that you're sending them, because you don't, you have built a relationship with them and you don't really know who else is in town.[00:23:18]But that could mean a very long wait list. Whereas this takes away all that guessing[00:23:26] and all that, um, kind of pigeonholing and, and things that have happened in the past around that. So it is very patient centric from the primary care provider perspective. Uh, the confirmation back is huge because then that's like time not wasted. In the future so that there is, there is the value proposition there for them.[00:23:50] Jonathan: We talked a lot about pricing.[00:23:51] Angela: we talked a lot about pricing.[00:23:53]Jonathan:  I'm excited that you have decided to not do a freemium model.[00:23:58] Uh, I just, I think it's, I think your mentor friend is correct.[00:24:04] Is it Steve? Okay. I think this is more valuable than to just give it away. We can give other stuff away. We can give away the podcast we can give away, you know, things that, that are valuable, but the day to day value that you would get out of using the software is significant.[00:24:25] And so that. You know why we need to be able to keep the lights on . We need to be able to be motivated, to continue to provide that value and to innovate on innovate even more on the value that's being provided.[00:24:41] If it's free, then what's the reason like. What's the reason to keep it's just a cost. Like it's not, it's not, it's maybe free to them, but it's not free to us.[00:24:48] Angela: Exactly. What's the motivation for us to make it better.[00:24:51] Jonathan: Yeah. It's just costing time and money or time and resources to continue. Mmm. To continue supporting free users. So I'm, I'm excited by that. I think, I think that's a much more sustainable way of building a business. I mean, there's, I think, I think one of the, one of the interesting things to come out of COVID is a bit of a rejection of that old way of doing things, which is growth at all costs[00:25:19] Angela: Oh, are we seeing that? Isn't that interesting? The shift in forget about unicorns[00:25:27] Jonathan: yeah,[00:25:28] Angela: enough. Yeah.[00:25:31][00:25:31] And so then when we did finally launch and I was doing, you know, demos, one of the first thing people ask is how much is it going to be? And to be honest, we haven't priced it yet. So come up with a guesstimate at the moment. Not that I hadn't thought about it before, because they certainly had, but I hadn't come up with anything firm.[00:25:56] Pricing ExerciseJonathan: So there's this, there's this pricing exercise that I really like[00:26:00] Angela: I don't think I like anything with a word exercise in it, but[00:26:03] Jonathan: it's not an exercise, it's just like a method.[00:26:06] Angela: You're just rebranding it.[00:26:09]Jonathan: I don't know how to pronounce this person's name, Van Westendorp's price sensitivity meter.[00:26:15] And it's it's, um, four questions that you can ask that kind of help you gauge what the price might be. So you ask at what price would you consider the product to be so expensive that you would not consider buying it? So that's the, that's the high side. That's too expensive. At what price would you consider the product to be so low that you would feel the quality could not be very good. So that's the too cheap price. and then at what price would you consider the product starting to get expensive so that it's not out of the question, but you'd have to give it some thought before buying it.[00:26:54] And that's the, uh, on the expensive for the high side. And then at what price would you consider to be the product, to be a bargain, a great buy for the money? And that's the, the sort of cheaper or the good, the good value, the good value side. And I think if you ask those questions and we've done it, we've done it on a couple of, uh, on a couple of projects and have been surprised by the results in a good way.[00:27:17] Like surprised that the, the pricing that we had maybe come up with in our minds was a little low.[00:27:25]Angela: should I try it? Should I like try a few customers and then report back?[00:27:30] Jonathan: I would love to hear that[00:27:31] Angela: okay. I'll report back.[00:27:34]3 Ps Jonathan: wait, just wait. I'm going to look up the three Ps. Is it three Ps,[00:27:38]Angela: I'm going to go product placement and price.[00:27:40] Jonathan: you think product placement and price?[00:27:41] I think. I don't know. Uh, it is, uh, product place, price and promotion. There's four Ps. So the four Ps pee and poo was not one of the four Ps of marketing, so, Oh, MBA.[00:28:00] Sorry.

Show NotesIn the intro Jonathan discusses the fall detection used in his Apple watch, if you are interested in learning more about this feature or how to turn it on then check out this link:https://support.apple.com/en-ca/guide/watch/apd34c409704/watchosSince recording this episode Angela has actually achieved the 10,000 step mark many times according to her Suunto 3 watch. She is still trying to get evening walks in.Fact CheckSurprisingly Angela does not spew random statistics this episode, so there was not much to fact check.Find Us OnlineAngela Hapke - @angelahapke - https://www.clinnect.caJonathan Bowers - @thejonotron - https://www.twostoryrobot.comCreditsProduced by Jonathan Bowers and Angela HapkeMusic by Andrew Codeman (CC BY 3.0)Transcript[00:00:00] Angela: This is fun.[00:00:03] Jonathan: That's how you that's. I think that's, um, like journalist broadcaster thing. Like you just put your face right in the mic and just click your tongue.[00:00:14] Angela: You have no idea.[00:00:16]Jonathan: I honestly have no idea.[00:00:17] Angela: Yeah, I know. You can tell[00:00:20]Introduction[00:00:20]Jonathan: Hi, I'm Jonathan Bowers. I am a software developer and uh, Oh, I, uh, I fell down the stairs.[00:00:28]I had Zach in my hand and it scared me[00:00:30] Angela: He's okay?[00:00:31] Jonathan: He's okay. Everyone's okay. I have a little bit of rug burn on my, uh, on my elbow, but I'm fine. Just a little bit of a bruised ego. And I don't understand how I've slipped down the stairs. Like I'm pretty cautious, not cautious, but like I don't, I don't fall down the stairs ever.[00:00:46] Like the first time I've done that.[00:00:48] Angela: That's why it's called an accident.[00:00:50] Jonathan: Yeah, I guess. So anyways, I was impressed with the Apple Watch's ability to detect the fall and it suggested that I call 911[00:00:57] Angela: I love that. why don't we have Apple watches on all our old people?[00:01:01] Jonathan: I don't know.[00:01:02] Super cool.[00:01:03] Angela: That is cool.[00:01:05]So my name is Angela Hapke, and I am the CEO of Central Referral Solutions and speaking about smartwatches, I got Suunto Watch for Mother's Day and I am yet to hit 10,000 steps a day[00:01:24]You have to go for walks in the evening. You have to deliberately go and get steps.[00:01:29] Jonathan, I do. I go for freaking walks in the evening. It just, it adds about like three or 4,000 steps, but I'm just still not getting enough.[00:01:44]Jonathan:  I had one day when I was legitimately less than 500 steps for the entire day. I think I was sick.[00:01:53] Angela: I was going to say, were you in bed all day?[00:01:55] Jonathan: I was in bed all day.[00:01:56] Angela: Yeah. That's why he was sick.[00:01:59] Jonathan: I thought, for sure, just casual, like just ambient walking. I would have picked up some extras more than 500 steps, but Nope.[00:02:08] Angela: that's. That's amazing.[00:02:11] Jonathan: Ambient walking.[00:02:12] Angela: Ambient walking.[00:02:14]Clinnect is launched[00:02:14] Jonathan: Okay so we've launched Clinnect uh how do you spell how do you spell that how do you spell Clinnect ?[00:02:21] Angela: C L I nope[00:02:25] Jonathan: That's right.[00:02:26] Angela: it is sorry. I'm like my brain somewhere else. And I thought, uh,[00:02:31] C L I N N E C T[00:02:35] Jonathan: Clinnect it's like clinic and connect smushed together.[00:02:39] Angela: You got it.[00:02:40]We launched it last week.[00:02:43] Jonathan: Not a full launch, a soft launch.[00:02:46] Angela: Sure a product like ours, I'm not sure launches largely easily. It's it is more of a, it is more of an iterative launch. So we just, we brought on her first umm users on Friday so many, many years ago, I I've, I've dreamed about this.[00:03:09] Like I have dreamed about this for many years. I've dreamt about being the CEO of a startup, launching a product. And when I dreamed about this, the images that were in my mind were. We, you know, we would, I would be in an office with a team and there would be high fives that day champagne, and we would be celebrating.[00:03:40] And I launched on Friday sitting alone in my basement.[00:03:49] And there was nobody, but we need high five because way too early in the day to drink shopping by myself. So,[00:04:00] Jonathan: That sounds like that makes me sad.[00:04:04] Angela: but it's actually, so. It didn't make me sad because at the end of the day is still like, the dream is still there. Like the idea, we still did something incredible and amazing, but I think it's also indicative of many things I've been reflecting on recently. Around this, this dream and what I thought that it looked like 10 years ago and what it actually looks like in reality now is I always thought I would have time to lean into these amazing pieces of the business, uh, and take my time and be thoughtful and meaningful around all these decisions and put effort and just all this additional time.[00:04:54] Leading up to the launch. I had my kids home 24 seven. There was no additional extra time or energy because I was exhausted to lean into these things. Like I was sure I was going to have this beautiful marketing website up to showcase the product and launch it. And I thought, Oh, I'm going to be so meaningful.[00:05:20] And the people that I reach out to and talk about this with, and it just, there was, there's just no time. And, and COVID like, talk about a time to launch a product. This is crazy. And so all those things. And so as soon as I let go of that ridiculous dream that I had 10 years ago and went well, that was nice.[00:05:42] That was cute. That you had that dream and that was a fun thing to focus on and it allowed you to get here. Reality looks very different and that's okay because at the end of the day, we're still doing what we said that we would do. And it's still important.[00:05:57]What does Clinnect Actually Do?[00:05:57]Jonathan: What's the thing that we're doing. What does Clinnect do? It's in healthcare, but what is ultimately boil it down to a couple of sentences or a short paragraph? What is Clinnect?[00:06:12]Angela:  Clinnect was built out of a need for patient referrals from your family doctor through to a specialist to be tracked and confirmed in a way that they hadn't been before.[00:06:31] Because far too often, we rely on fax machines to do those referrals, sending and receiving. And we figured that we could create, uh, an easy, simple solution that was far more secure that allowed, um, that patient referral to be sent to the most appropriate provider. Oh, while in the background building meaningful data for your community and in demand around a specific specialties and things like that. But at it's very bare bones. It is a very simple, easy way to send a referral from a primary care provider through to a specialist for patients needing to see any type of specialist that is not sent through a fax machine.[00:07:31] Jonathan: And so how so? How has the lunch gone? So it's, it's a soft, I wouldn't even say it's a soft launch. It's a private launch.[00:07:39] Angela: Yeah, actually, that's a good way of putting it because we only allowed the users on that we wanted to start with.[00:07:46] Jonathan: But we did launch like we did, we do have, we do have users in they're using, are they using the software or have they just created accounts?[00:07:56] Angela: They've just created accounts and are taking a poke around right now. Today, I'm connecting with, uh, the first person that will be creating referrals to be sent through and received. So that's exciting.[00:08:11] Jonathan: That is exciting. And how has it gone? so? It wasn't as, uh, as exciting or as, high fives and Champaign, as you might've thought we didn't have a, we didn't have a chocolate fountain.[00:08:22] Angela: I can do those are so weird and gross.[00:08:26] Jonathan: Especially now, could you imagine having a chocolate fountain.[00:08:29] Angela: Everybody there would be caution tape around it now.[00:08:33] Because it was a private launch, it went, it went pretty good. We were able to handle the users. There was a couple of bugs that came up, but we were able to, and your team was able to address them pretty quickly. We did have a couple, uh, things happen that we thought. Well, that probably won't happen. And we kind of pushed in design and development till later that we've now had to say, Oh, wait a minute.[00:09:00] We got to put a priority around that, which has been, which was just kind of humbling in the hilarious,[00:09:07] Jonathan: It's always, it always goes that way. We plan for the things we think, okay, these are the errors that users are going to encounter. Like, these are the kinds of things that users are gonna stumble on. So we need to fix those things and then they never do. But then the things that we think, Oh, no, one's going to do this, and if they do, there's only 10 users so far, so it's not going to be that bad. But then the first user, the first time hits the one thing or the two things that we deliberately pushed to the bottom of the pile.[00:09:33]Launching with a Few Small Bugs[00:09:33] Angela: That's exactly what happened. It was our first user and she, she, she, uh, yeah, she did something that we were like, it probably won't happen. Oops. It did.[00:09:45] We can, I mean, we can talk about what that was like. We.[00:09:48] can we,[00:09:49] okay.[00:09:49] Jonathan: sure. I mean, there's nothing as long as we're not disclosing who it is. I think that's[00:09:53] Angela: so our first user, we thought, well, they won't go into the same web page and register themselves more than once. So, and correct, correct my language around this, Jonathan, but, uh, what we, what we did, what we didn't do was like a system check to see if that user already exists in the system, because we just thought they would go in once register once and then, and then just log in after that was the very first use that we got on registered herself four[00:10:24] Jonathan: Oh, I know. And it's an easy, it's such an easy thing. It's such an easy thing to fix. I don't even sure why we didn't fix it to be honest.[00:10:33] Angela: Well, isn't that the hilarious part is, yeah. Like as soon as I talked to your team about it, they were like, Oh, okay. So let's just fix that. And then it was fixed right away. But our poor first user was like, I don't see everything that I'm supposed to be seeing. And I'm like, huh, well, let's take a look into that.[00:10:51] And then we discovered it was like, well, she's actually registered four times.[00:10:54] Yeah, so that was kind of a funny one. And then we, and then, yeah, we had some funny things around, um, case sensitivity for emails and which is one of those things that we probably should have.[00:11:07] Jonathan: Yup. Yup. Often all things that should have been done, because they're really easy to do.[00:11:14] Angela: Yeah. Yeah. So.[00:11:16] Jonathan: But, it's, it's a little bit of, uh, of competing priorities. Like there's, there's so much other things to do that are just so important, right? Like we need to have encryption working. We need to have all of these features that the people need to be able to use.[00:11:32] Um, and so. These things are up there. Easy. We can just do that last minute, but then we never get to them and they creep their way in. And then we think, okay, well we didn't fix those things. It's live. No one's going to hit those. We'll fix them in a bit. Um, but[00:11:47] Angela: they did my first users, the, Oh well, and I think, and I am not sure how to, how to say this, but Clinnect is an easy platform to use. What we've created is a digital health application that is so easily, integrated into their, their systems.[00:12:11] Like you literally take two minutes to sign up, whereas like most doctor's offices in MOAs are used to software that takes like massive, like many days to onboard. Like, so for example, like your, your EMR or your emergency, your electronic medical records, there's a team that comes out.[00:12:34] Jonathan: Oh, wow.[00:12:35] Angela: I mean, okay. Maybe, maybe just one person, but there's a person that comes out that is like an implementation specialist usually.[00:12:43] And they will onboard your office, like in person. And they'll be there testing things for usually like a day or two.[00:12:52] Jonathan: Oh, wow.[00:12:53] Angela: Yeah. And I mean, EMR is, are big and heavy and, um, but any kind of software that I think about that, you know, a doctor's office uses is typically pretty robust with a complicated ish sign-on process or registration process.[00:13:16] So it's a lot more handholding Clinnect is like, I sent you a link you signed on in two minutes and then you can send a referral. Like it's that simple. And because it's that simple, I think we were just like, well, it's that simple? what I love about clinic is, um, I'm able to say because literally just two minutes to sign on and you can send a referral it's that easy. And that is a very cool value that we offer.[00:13:50] Jonathan: It's the, the, the value is that it takes two minutes to sign off.[00:13:56]Angela: No, it's, it's a, what is it? A lack of barrier, I guess.[00:14:03] Jonathan: so, okay. So we've launched, we've launched, we've had a few users sign up, um, some, some, uh, a few, a few bumps, a few stumbling blocks. and then soon I think today, some of the users are going to start. You're going to walk a user through sending, sending the first referral[00:14:22] Angela: Yeah. I'm hoping it's today, if not tomorrow. Yeah. Yeah. It's exciting. I think,[00:14:30]Jonathan: Why is it exciting? I mean, I get, I get why it's exciting for you,[00:14:33] Angela: yeah,[00:14:34] Jonathan: it's, it's, it's the dream realized, right? There's no champagne, there's no fountain of chocolate, but there's still, there's still software that's out there that a real human customer is using. There is, is going to use today. Um, why is that exciting beyond, beyond just the fact that that, you know, exists.[00:14:57] Angela: So if I take off my founder hat and I put on my like Joe public hat, is that what you[00:15:01]Digital Health is Pretty Boring[00:15:01] Jonathan: I guess, so, I mean, why, like, I mean, there's, there's all sorts of reasons why you got into this and wanted to build this. Um, and it's. It's not finished, but, but something is built and that's exciting for sure. That's, that's always exciting when it's full of anxiety of, you know, things going wrong and things have gone wrong, uh, small bumps, but, but it works, um, it's out there.[00:15:25] So, but what's the, like, what's the, what's the exciting bit now? What are you excited about now? And maybe this is from the point of view of the public.[00:15:34][00:15:34] Angela: It's so hard to answer. I think because healthcare isn't, especially digital health stuff really isn't that exciting.[00:15:46] Um, typically healthcare, digital health applications, aren't super exciting. They're not really sexy stuff that comes out and it's not, like rock your world stuff. It's usually fixing something, a systemic issue that we've had for a long time in a really obvious way. And I think that's what this is. The fact that, you know, as a, as a patient, I would go into my doctor and have a, have a referral faxed over to my specialist's office and never hear back as to where I was on a wait list if they ever received it.[00:16:26] Or if, if, if, if all of these variables Mmm we're fixing all of those, it seems obvious. And I've had this interaction with people. When I tell them about connecting what we're doing, the reaction I get almost all the time is, well, why doesn't this exist yet? So maybe it's not that exciting for the general public.[00:16:54] And rather it is more well about time[00:16:59] Cause I'm not sure that I could. I am not sure. I could go out and explain to people what Clinnect is and they'd be like, yes, that is so exciting. It is not exciting for people. It is more of a statement of, well, that just makes a lot of sense. Why the hell haven't we been doing this for a really long time?[00:17:19]Jonathan: It's a strange, um, that's a strange feeling. I experienced that every now and again, where I think back, like, how do I, how do I excite, um, 16 year old me about the kinds of things that I do now. And I don't, I'm not sure that I could, like, I'm not sure that I could say, Oh, you're going to be spending hours.[00:17:37] Um, leading a team that is building software to replace fax machines and it's going to be so awesome. 16 year old me is that sounds so[00:17:49] Angela: So boring.[00:17:50] Jonathan: boring, but it's, it is exciting because, every day, people are doing, you know, doing their job, trying to go about their day, get, get the things that they need to get done, done, and are stuck using whatever antiquated system or antiquated piece of software that they've inherited through, you know, whatever chain of decision making that led to that. And they're stuck with it and they're just trying to do the best they can. And I'm excited that, even if there's a little bit of joy, even if it's just once, even if it's just, Oh, this is, nice. And then that's it. But now, now they just go about their job.[00:18:29] Um, much, much more efficiently being able to focus on the things that matter. Um, you know, not spending their time sorting piles of paper.[00:18:39] Angela: The way that I describe it sometimes too, which some helps people a little bit. And let's be very clear that some of these features do not exist yet in Clinnect, but they are in the pipeline. Um, imagine going to your family physician with an issue he or she says, I think you need to see a specialist. And upon walking out of that office, you receive a text or an email that says.[00:19:07] Your referral to specialist so, and so has been received. The estimated waiting time is four weeks. We will be in touch with you. Um, and just, just that, just that simple, at least I know I am being taken care of because right now, when we walk out of our physician's offices with our kids that have just been referred to a specialist, We have no idea if that referral was ever received or not.[00:19:41] And I know a lot of people are terrified to pick up the phone to find out for fear of bothering someone or maybe being put at the bottom of an arbitrary list for bothering someone. Um, but this is like real time trackable referrals. Which yes, we maybe should have been doing for a long time, but haven't, so now, now it's time to, uh, but that's usually when people go, Oh, that would be really cool.[00:20:10] So maybe, so maybe if we could just insight that little bit of joy once in a while, where you literally get the text that says, Hey, and maybe even further to that, it's now been accepted by specialists. So, and so here it, you know, or even better click here to book an appointment, Things like that. Like, this is not, this is not undoable.[00:20:35] This is totally doable. I guess what I'm saying.[00:20:38] Jonathan: and it's not, um, it's not rocket surgery.[00:20:42]Angela: It's not, it really isn't, but we've been very complacent with, um, the lack of technology and in the healthcare space for a very long time. And that's what that's. I mean, I go back to why I'm excited about this is at the end of the day, we are, we are providing a service that didn't, it didn't exist in this way before I finally get to make an impact for far too long when I was in the system, um, I would be.[00:21:21] You know, writing, writing decision briefs, um, that were really exciting ideas and projects, and that would just get shelved for years. And there was no sense of change. There was no sense of making that impact. I finally decided that I couldn't sit around and do that anymore.[00:21:45] And when a group of surgeons came to me and said, we have this really cool idea, I saw a much bigger application for it. Whereas they were just like, this is how it all started. General surgeons and Kamloops just, just wanted one place where all their referrals could come into and they could pull it. This is how this all started.[00:22:06] That's all they wanted. Could you help us do that? Yeah, I can definitely help you do that. And my guess is you're not the only ones that need that.[00:22:13]What is Coming Next with Clinnect?[00:22:13]Jonathan:  What are the next steps? Like, what are we, what are we working on next? So you're going to get some referrals happening. What else is happening?[00:22:19] Angela: So we're going to test the system for referrals just to make sure that everything works. Um, and then we start onboarding, referring providers. So meaning your, primary care providers that refer patients through, that's going to be, that's going to be a, Oh, that's a long process. Um, but we're gonna focus on, um, kind of blasting to them that we're up for functional.[00:22:48] We're going, please sign up once again. Low barrier to use two minute sign up and you can send your first referral. That's the exciting part. And then we have other specialty groups that are interested in joining two already, which is awesome. So I'm actually thinking we might even have to queue them, which I.[00:23:12] Never thought that we were actually going to have to have a queue. I always thought we would be like going to them and saying, okay, I think you guys need to get on and then like trying to sell it. But I think we already have . Enough that are interested and it's just, it's the snowball effect. As soon as you get a few on, then everybody sees, how about hopefully how well it's working and we've designed it to scale.[00:23:35]Because this is based off of a workflow that we've been doing with general surgery. That was not scalable. So we learned, I think we've learned a ton there. And so that's exciting to see.[00:23:50]Growing the Waitlist[00:23:50]Jonathan:  I'm looking forward to seeing that waitlist grow[00:23:52] Angela: be careful about calling it a weightless grow because we're in surgery.[00:23:55] Jonathan: Oh, right. Yeah, no, we don't want our waitlist to grow. we have this really long wait list to get into our software, but it, the goal of our software is to[00:24:03] Angela: Does it reduce the wait list?[00:24:05]Jonathan:  Can, can Clinnect Clinnect itself?[00:24:08] Can we use Clinnect to manage our own wait list?[00:24:12] Angela: Oh, no maybe. In a way that's the way it works though.[00:24:21] Jonathan: So, okay. Yeah. So our wait list is growing. Your wait-lists are shrinking.

Show NotesOur first full episode of "Fixing Faxes".There is a backlog of surgeries due to COVID-19, how is Canada going to deal with those. How do referrals work in the first place and how will Clinnect help? Do we need faxes?Fact ChecksIn the opening Angela mentions being at home with her children for 73 days, that was incorrect it was actually 74 days according to her calendar.Here is the CMAJ article that Angela refers to.The "large" number Angela refers to is around 100,000 surgeries across Canada canceled or postponed due to COVID as of April 25, 2020.To really hit home on the fact that our reliance on fax machines in Canadian healthcare is antiquated and not secure; here is an opinion piece published by the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Alberta that we could not stop saying "exactly" throughout. The physician, Dr. Sandy J. Murray (twitter: @Diver_Doc) also talks about the theatrics of Canadian healthcare and how we pride ourselves on innovation yet rely on a foundation of fax machines. We think Dr. Sandy J. Murray needs to take a look at Clinnect ;) and we agree: "Axe the fax. Let's make this change together."Resources on the issues of patient referrals:https://policybase.cma.ca/documents/policypdf/PD15-01.pdfhttps://www.aafp.org/news/practice-professional-issues/20180130ehrreferrals.htmlhttp://www.ihi.org/resources/Pages/Publications/Closing-the-Loop-A-Guide-to-Safer-Ambulatory-Referrals.aspxThere is a lot of information for physicians and care providers to sift through when managing referrals, at Clinnect we believe that physicians and care providers should do what they do best and we make it easy for them to follow best practices and policy by ingraining it into the product. Simple. Central. Secure.Find Us OnlineAngela Hapke - @angelahapke - https://www.clinnect.caJonathan Bowers - @thejonotron - https://www.twostoryrobot.comCreditsProduced and Hosted by Jonathan Bowers and Angela HapkeMusic by Andrew Codeman (CC BY 3.0)TranscriptAngela:  Can I say the f word on.[00:00:02]Jonathan: You can, but then we have to beep it out or we get flagged as explicit in Apple.[00:00:06] Angela: Yes. Can we go for the explicit in Apple flag?[00:00:10] Jonathan: This is an explicit podcast, not for children. I think. I don't know how it works. I have to, I have to explore that a little bit. I've just, I'm just figuring out the recording and production piece. Uh,[00:00:21] Angela: I love it.[00:00:22]Introduction[00:00:22]Jonathan: Hi, I'm Jonathan Bowers. I am a software entrepreneur from Kamloops, and I haven't slept much this week because Zach is experiencing a sleep regression.[00:00:40]Angela:  Hi. I'm Agela Hapke. I am the CEO of Clinnect a digital health startup in Kamloops, and I sent my children to daycare for the first time in 73 days.[00:00:56] Jonathan: Oh my goodness.[00:00:57]How do you feel about that?[00:01:02] Angela: Um, Jonathan, I have never felt like deeply felt bitter sweet like this week.[00:01:12] I have spent 73 days seeing them every single day,[00:01:19]kissing their smushy little faces,[00:01:22]watching them grow, and I have to now give them away for eight hours a day again.[00:01:27]Jonathan: Wow.[00:01:28]Angela: And on the other hand, mama gets to do, whatever mom wants to do for eight hours a day again.[00:01:38] Jonathan: That's so exciting. I'm so jealous and so scared for you at the same time.[00:01:42] Angela: That's, this is what I mean by bittersweet. I've never felt the deep visceralness of bittersweet in my life before.[00:01:49]The Backlog of Surgeries[00:01:49]Jonathan:  well, this is a podcast about healthcare and healthcare technology. So let's, let's talk about, uh, what's going on in your world right now.[00:02:02]Angela:[00:02:02] so interesting things happening right now in the world of surgery. Um, the CMAJ, which is a Canadian Medical Association Journal, just published, um, a article around how they believe that the backlog of surgeries will be not solved. But part one, part of, of a large solution would be central intake for referrals.[00:02:28] Jonathan: Oh, interesting.[00:02:30]Angela:  It's being echoed everywhere. And as myself and one of my colleagues talked about, he says, I don't think anybody understands how hard it is. And I was like, I would, uh, I would agree. Um, And it's, it's not the software around it, but it is the cohesiveness of groups to agree to a central intake. And especially especially in the case where there is the perception of surgeries being divvied up.[00:03:01] Like let's just each take, uh, our equal pieces of the pie and do it that way. And the other person is maybe arguing in the fact that. Well, I can get done way more gallbladders than you can, so maybe I should just take more to them[00:03:20] It's an interesting one because when we talk about a divvying up just strictly referrals, what you're divvying up there is, um, consultations and potentially procedures down the road. But when we're talking about divvying up procedures.[00:03:35] There's a much higher price tag attached to those, right? Um, it's also short term thinking,[00:03:41] Jonathan: In what way?[00:03:42]Angela: So if you think about the way that connect is built is we're built, um, with the longterm in mind. We are building it so that groups can get to on the same platform, divvy up those referrals in a way that is equitable or purpose, purposefully inequitable. With the idea that you're going to get good data from this, you're going to get accurate go times with your wait times, right? You're going to, um, get a baseline of where you're at when you do equally, based on constraints if you want to equally, level load those referrals, and then maybe six months time, start to taking a look at wait times and going, Oh, well, you know, if we tweaked this here, tweaked this here, then we could do, uh, then we could maybe shorten wait times for everyone for category A or B.[00:04:38] It's that longer term view that gets you sophisticated data, accurate wait times, um, reports and data to go to governing bodies or sit at tables with and go, Hey, this is, this is the actual stuff. And that takes time. That takes a long time. Whereas what we're talking about with, um, this backlog of surgeries that are waiting, um, due to COVID, you're just looking at like, how many can we get through as quickly as possible in the most equitable way? now, not two years from now, but now.[00:05:17] Jonathan: But isn't that the same thing that like, if there's a backlog and you're trying to get through them as quickly as possible, is it a different solution than when we're not faced with this, , however many months backlog of, of surgeries.[00:05:30] Angela: Arguably it is the same solution. The, the difference I think is, um, Clinnect is built in a way that we can do a central intake that also allows patient continuity of care. So meaning I have my surgery done by the same surgeon that I saw in my initial consult.[00:05:48]This messes all of that up. And that was the differentiator with Clinnect is we actually like for so long, we talk about the fact that, um, in order to have a central intake and do surgeries effectively, um, everybody needs to kind of be put into, to pooled piles along each part of the journey and Clinnect.[00:06:07] Um, and our philosophy said, we'll hold, hold, hold up a minute. Couldn't we maybe have both.[00:06:13] Jonathan: Right,[00:06:14]Angela: and still serve the public in a way that is, um, is appropriate, but you also get to have that continuity of care with the surgeon that you've, started to get to know. And that that's never been really considered.[00:06:31] The thing is always been that, um. In order to get me through as quickly as possible, I just get to see the next available person, whether that be for a consult or a procedure or et cetera, et cetera. Whereas we said, you know, timeout. If you take a look at the big picture, I think we could do both of those things.[00:06:47]Jonathan: but right now it seems like the focuses is not so much that continuity of care. It's, it's we'd like, we really need to get through this backlog of, surgeries and you don't, you don't really get to decide. You just like, it needs to get done.[00:07:03] Angela: That's exactly it. That's, that's the thinking right now is that it? And there is, there is definitely research that says, um, that patients prefer to get their surgeries done quicker. If it. It means that even if it means that they have to see somebody that's different[00:07:23]Jonathan:  I'd rather have my surgery now than 10 years from now,[00:07:26]Angela: and I think, you know, the, what we were trying to say is the question's phrased incorrectly. Um, if, if the question is. Um, would you take a different surgeon than you had your initial consult with to do your surgery? If it meant you could have it faster? Well, that just incites a yes. Right.[00:07:45] Whereas if the other question, if the two questions were, if you could have your surgery done at the same time, um, would you prefer the surgeon that you've already met and built a relationship with or a new surgeon that's like, that's the question that Clinnect is asking. Which incites a different response, but it takes time to do that. it takes time to understand your baseline data and wait times and then tweak, with good data, making informed decisions versus, the short term thinking where it's like, okay, we just got to get through these surgeries now , I would like to see a bit of both. I'd like to see a mix where, maybe we do that for the short term is we just try and make the most efficient, meaningful, safe way to do this as possible right now. But down the road, don't forget about the long, the longterm[00:08:41]What is a Referral?[00:08:41]Jonathan: You've talked a lot about what Clinnect and referrals and all of these things. there's some context that I think people won't have. can you describe what the, like how do referrals work at a really basic level?[00:08:56] what is a referral? What, what happens[00:08:58] Angela: Um, I think it's a referral is something that most people are familiar with, whether they kind of know it or not. So every time you go to your primary care provider, um, so that includes general practitioners, family practitioners, nurse practitioners, um, all, all of these, health care providers that can make referrals to specialists.[00:09:20]So let's say it's a family doctor. You go to your family doctor and you have abdominal pain and your family doctor says, okay. it's bad enough that he's concerned that it might be a gallbladder or something like that.[00:09:35] So I'm going to send you off to a general surgeon. So at this point, your family doctor is , okay, who's the general surgeons in town? Who does gallbladders. are they all working full time right now? is any of them away on holiday and and and. So all of these questions, so then your, uh, family doctor sends, builds a referral, sends it off in their, um, typically their they make a referral in their EMR,[00:10:06] Jonathan: What's an EMR.[00:10:07] Angela: So it's a software that they use to manage your medical records. So an EMR is electronic medical record system. They type up a letter, they put any pertinent information, maybe your medical histories of medications that you're on, things like that.[00:10:21]They put together a little package that either gets printed off and faxed to this. General surgeon that they've guessed is around and guessed that does, um, gallbladders at this point, your family doctor is hoping that they received it.[00:10:37] You're not a hundred percent sure because they don't get a confirmation. They also don't know how long the wait time is. They have no idea. the receiving surgeons end either receives this on a fax machine, like a physical copy on a fax machine or their virtual fax machine, which is hopefully linked to their EMR where they receive it, they put it, they put it into their EMR.[00:10:58] So now you have a patient record on their end. Um, they typically don't send a confirmation back. You are now waiting. You don't have a clue how long you're supposed to be waiting because nobody's given you an estimated waiting time and you have no idea if they actually received it or not. That's typically how a referral goes.[00:11:17] Jonathan: So in a worst case, you go see your family physician for some concern, and he guesses at who to send it to faxes it, doesn't know if it actually was received on that end. Um, and you never have any insight into that entire process. Possibly never get seen because it was not actually delivered to anyone.[00:11:38] Angela: Worst case scenario. Yeah. Yeah. And there's many, many scenarios that go along with that. Um, meaning the referral could've gone to a specialist that doesn't practice anymore. The referral could've gone to a specialist that doesn't do, uh, gallbladders and maybe didn't, didn't send it back to that primary care provider.[00:11:57] Um, best case scenario, they send it off to the specialist. The specialist receives it. Um, maybe their MOA gives the primary care providers MOA, a quick call to say, Hey, we got this, uh, we got this referral. Um, my guess is, you know, it'll be about a two month wait time. Um, but, uh, we'll, we'll contact the patient directly and in two months you're contacted.[00:12:23] Usually by phone. So hopefully you have to your phone because they're phoning with an appointment for you. And if you didn't answer, then that, then they're going to the next one on the list and they're getting[00:12:34] that appointment. And then they get you, they get you on the phone and they say, Jonathan, can you come in at two o'clock on Tuesday?[00:12:40] And you actually can go in and two o'clock on Tuesday and you get seen.[00:12:43] So Clinnect now is an attempt to try and fix some of those pains.[00:12:50] Yeah. We are taking on the army of fax machines that are in all the physician offices all over. That's who we're taking on.[00:13:00]Jonathan: Oh, fax machines. , I worked. For an organization that was kind of old in their ways. . Uh, it frustrated me to no end that the thing that we would do as a practice to put information on, on the web, in a digital form was, so we started by typing it up in a word document. digitally,[00:13:20] Angela: Okay.[00:13:22] Jonathan: print it, scan it, and then put the PDF of the scan up on the website.[00:13:30] That's how information was communicated, started digital. It was converted into something analog, then back into digital, but a much worse version, the original and put it up on the, on the web, and it was, it just, it just boggled my mind that this was, this was something that people thought was the right thing to do.[00:13:54]What is Clinnect[00:13:54] So tell me about Clinnect. What is Clinnect now?[00:13:57] Angela: Clinnect is a drastically different way of making a referral. It's all online. It is tracked. There's an audit log around it so everybody knows when that referral was sent, everybody knows when it was received, accepted.[00:14:14]It's encrypted in a way that is, forward thinking and exciting. It's not a, not a fax machine or a piece of paper sitting on a fax machine, that's for sure. And it allows the really exciting part for physicians on both the referring and receiving end. Is that the primary care provider doesn't need to make all those guesses that I talked about.[00:14:39] They can just say, Hey, Jonathan has what I think is a gallbladder issue. I think it's urgent. And it automatically lets that doctor know who is available and who can take gallbladders.[00:14:53] And then from the specialist perspective, they get appropriate referrals, uh, timely. They're tracked, And, it allows the specialists to share those referrals and when the group of, uh, specialists in that area, so it's pretty exciting.[00:15:10] Jonathan: It is exciting. Lindsay shared Oh, a Maclean's article about how we rely on fax machines to send all this data around and how it's just, it's just not working. So it seems like, it seems like COVID has come in and the light has been shown and how broken the fax machine is for this kind of thing. For anything like fax machines, we don't meet them anymore.[00:15:35]We Don't Need Faxes Anymore[00:15:35] Angela: We don't need them anymore. Um, healthcare in Canada is built on. Foundations of things like fax machines I recently heard somebody say that healthcare in Canada is theatrical in the fact that we do showcase people doing remote surgeries with VR goggles and this amazing, high tech approach to all these, you know, sophisticated, um, methods and things like that.[00:16:08] Whereas at the end of the day, we still send referrals by fax machines. What we're doing with Clinnect is the really UN-sexy work of healthcare. We are not creating virtual goggles for somebody to do surgeries in remote parts of Canada because that's great, but we need to fix the foundation of even the way that we send referrals first.[00:16:39][00:16:39] Jonathan: I was talking with, my brother in law is a, uh, family physician and he, he had a quote unquote walk in phone call. And he said, if he had come into the clinic, um, he would have spent like two hours waiting around in the, in the waiting room until he got to see him. you didn't have to take time off work. And then, um. My brother and I just phoned them up and said, yeah, you know, saw him it took them, you know, less than 10 minutes, and it was just such a better experience for everyone.[00:17:05] Angela: We have, we actually have a lot of our, like our surgeons are just doing phone consults right now and that's surgeons. With an initial consult, right. They're getting the information that they do need. So, yeah, so you're right, it can, it can be just a phone call sometimes too.[00:17:21] Jonathan: take me back to your, the first thing you said, so, so Canadian medical association journal published an article that is advocating for a central intake.[00:17:33] Angela: That is, well, I mean, as a journal article, I don't think they're advocating per se, but what they are doing was, showing the benefit of a central intake on the access of surgery post COVID?[00:17:50] Yeah.[00:17:51] because, um, during COVID we have just, we, we stopped elective surgeries, almost altogether.[00:17:57] And there are some big numbers being, um, used around how many surgeries were canceled and how many surgeries, have been, missed during this time.[00:18:09]Jonathan: so those surgeries were scheduled, right? So they, that referral has already happened.[00:18:14] Um, this, the specialist already has that. So what, what happens now? Like what's the, what's the process does that, does that get, like, does it have to be referred or does the,[00:18:25] Angela: Yeah. So this is where, and this is where I'm trying to figure out, like is there a reshuffle of them? Right? So this and when they talk about Clinnect being long term, that's where this comes in. Clinnect is longterm because it starts from the need of a referral first through to the referral actually being sent.[00:18:44] Whereas these are typically referrals that have already been sent and potentially already been initial consulted on, um, maybe multiple times. Um, they're already at the place where we know they need a procedure. So is there a way to, in the short term, reshuffled these through a central intake that takes into account necessary items to reshuffle, not items, but constraints to reshuffle. Let's call them surgical referrals. In a way that, you know, reshuffles them based on their category, their urgency and the availability of the surgeons themselves because that may have changed.[00:19:28]And you can imagine to some of these people like they, like we didn't, we didn't hit pause on their symptoms.[00:19:34] So some of these people may have been like kind of in the semi-urgent category, have now bumped up to urgent, bumped up in urgency because their symptoms are now worse.[00:19:44]So they do they do need a very quick, efficient, uh, system to take a look at those changes and then reallocate them. Potentially reallocate them. Meaning it could go back to the same, same surgeon that was supposed to do it, or it could go to another one now.[00:20:08] Jonathan: Do you think you would see some of those referrals start to move around the province and like is that, whose job is that? Like whose job is that to review what has changed? Is that the surgeons or the specialist's job is that the family physician's job? It certainly is not the patient's job. I don't think.[00:20:26] Angela: I don't think so. I mean, that's all part of it too. Uh, whose job is it right now? So the patient is in the care still of the surgeon or the specialist. And in this case, we're talking surgery, so I can use the word surgeon. Um, and so it really is on them to kind of monitor as to where, where they're at.[00:20:49] But as you can imagine, there's no pause on this. It just keeps coming. So now we've put almost the unattainable expectations upon these surgeons to, um, sorry you won't be, doing procedures anymore and yes, your waitlist is building and building and building, but not, you still got to keep it, keep track of all these patients and where they're at.[00:21:11] I mean, that's insurmountable. So is there, is there a way that we can, quickly and efficiently. Do that as part of the reshuffle.[00:21:23] I don't know, but it seems plausible.[00:21:27]Could We Work with Specialist Groups to Address the Backlog[00:21:27] I would love to work with a group that is so inundated then so up to, they're like eyeballs that they like. They're like, I don't, I don't even know how we're going to restart our surgeries, but are willing to work as a group to do it and have an idea of how they might do, like how they could manually do it, but that would just take too much time and resources.[00:21:54] I would love to go in with them and say, let's try it. Let's try something and can we build it? Like, could we build something for you? I think that'd be cool.[00:22:06] Jonathan: I think it'd be cool. I'm so excited about all of the potential that, that this product has, not just for. Like, selfishly, you know, everyone has experienced the, the problem of, of getting a referral to some specialist somewhere and, and just sort of not having any idea of what's going on. Um, so I'm looking forward to just having my problem solved, but, um, it's, it's, it's cool to think that, you know, there's, there's some impact that we can have.[00:22:37] On, on healthcare on access to healthcare. The thing that everyone points to about Canada, like you have this wonderful healthcare system and it is, it's great in a lot of ways and not so great in, in many other ways. Um, it's just, it feels, it's really exciting to be part of this.[00:22:58] Angela: You're right in saying that, you know, Canada is often looked at as and held up in the way that our healthcare works and the access, And I'm hesitant to say this, but I think it makes us a bit complacent when we do talk about the forward thinking that we could do around further accessibility and further furthering that, that, um, the health care that we do have is because we do a lot of bat like back back of patting, um, of ourselves.[00:23:28] That's the word, um, to say like, look at us. We, we do, we do so well.[00:23:34] Mmm. And it makes us a bit complacent. And I think we could do a hell of a lot better. for not a lot of, massive shifts, but literally just doing what we do 10 times better. yeah, it makes, I'm excited too.[00:23:50] I think the timing is wild.[00:23:54] Jonathan: Oh my goodness. you look back to where we were, you know, last year when we were just sort of starting to talk about some of this stuff. And I mean, smart people have predicted that the pandemic is coming, but no one listened to them. But I mean, we certainly did not have any clue that this was going to happen.[00:24:11]trying not to feel like opportunistic. Um, I mean, I don't feel like we are being opportunistic at all, cause we started this journey a long time ago. Um, but it is, you know, there's a problem and we can help with it.[00:24:24] And we've got, you know, we've got a kick ass team to, to, to solve this.[00:24:29] Angela: That's exactly the way I feel about it too. And we're, and here's the best part about it. We're nimble enough to keep, um. Not re not reacting to anything but nimble enough to allow us to do some deep thinking around it and shift. And that's like, that's what I love about, um, where we're at too, is. Is, we're not just this big company that takes forever to maybe like steer the ship slightly one degree to the left, but instead we're like, Oh wow, look at that.[00:25:05] Let's like, let's, let's incorporate that piece. Or users are saying, please, please, please do this. Okay, let's do it. Let's like, let's make that better. And I think for me, because. The ethos of the company. You have always been grounded in the fact that we are building this for the, for, for the people, for the physicians to use, for, um, not for ourselves.[00:25:28] Um, but I've never really felt opportunistic about it at all because, um, I am so comfortable in the, the, um, philosophy that we built this on that I, that I feel it's desperately needed. It was needed years ago.[00:25:48] Jonathan: And, we're being very thoughtful about the approach to things, you know, thinking about, thinking about the privacy, thinking about, um, you know, thinking about it from not just the point of view of the physicians or the specialists or the, medical office assistant, who, who's using the software, but also, you know, what does that look like for the patient longterm?[00:26:11] Angela: Having worked in healthcare and having been like, just bound, um, from. Making big impacts due to, um, just simply lack of good data, lack of sophisticated data, lack of any type of meaningful information to make decisions on. Um, that's why I'm so excited to move out of the system to a place where I could influence that. In a row, like once again in a really, like, this is unsexy work, but at the end of the day, when I see the impact that, the potential impact, it's, it's overwhelmingly positive. So, and so many different areas for the patient, for the physician, for the, like the, the use of population data for, you know, et cetera, et cetera.[00:27:06] I just feel like it's not like we, you know, hit really hard in one area, but rather we, we, I think we're gonna hit a few home runs in a few, in a few different arenas here, so that's exciting,[00:27:20]Outro[00:27:20] Jonathan: Home runs in arenas. That's how sports works.[00:27:23] Angela: Think that's an awful, we're going to take that one out.[00:27:28] Jonathan: No, I'm going to leave that in. I like, I like mixing metaphors. I'm a big fan[00:27:33] Angela: so bad As soon as I said it, I was like, Nope, let's rewind that part.

Where do you start to build a cleaning business from the ground up? If you aspire to run a house cleaning company, it's time to start planning your business. You can streamline scheduling, billing, dispatching, and client info with HousecallPro.com/Angela You don't have to make the same mistakes of those before you to start a cleaning business from scratch. Check out these helpful business tips for your house cleaning startup. Today's #AskaHouseCleaner sponsors are Savvy Cleaner Training for professional house cleaners and maids. And Housecall Pro. #SavvyCleaner #AngelaBrown *** RATE THIS SHOW *** https://sotellus.com/r/savvy-cleaner *** RATE THIS PODCAST *** https://ratethispodcast.com/askahousecleaner *** FAST TRACK TO CLEANING SUCCESS *** https://SavvyCleaner.com/Calendar-of-Courses *** MOST REQUESTED LIST OF CLEANING STUFF I USE *** https://www.Amazon.com/shop/AngelaBrown *** MORE VIDEOS ON THIS TOPIC *** How to Start a Cleaning Business and How I Made $1,000+ a Week - Angel Richardson - https://youtu.be/WY7GJNkP1zA Starting a Cleaning Business from Scratch - First 3 Steps - TurnClean Services, LLC - https://youtu.be/PndeiXl-t7g How to Start A Cleaning Business with No Money - How To Start Your Own Cleaning Business - https://youtu.be/FgOXNBesS0Q How to Start A Cleaning Business | "I made over $20,000 per month!" - AJ SIMMONS - https://youtu.be/GQZI5Xz1tgE How to Start a Cleaning Business | Step by Step Guide 2020 - Max Maher - https://youtu.be/Fs-xe1AUBjI *** GOOD KARMA RESOURCES FROM THIS EPISODE *** These good karma links connect you to Amazon.com and affiliated sites that offer products or services that relate to today’s show. When you click on the links and buy the items you pay the exact same prices or less than if you found the links on your own elsewhere. The difference is that we make a small commission here at the show for sharing these links with you. Business Zero to Superhero: How to Start and Grow Your Business - https://amzn.to/2UU0nzC The Startup Checklist: 25 Steps to a Scalable, High-Growth Business - https://amzn.to/2BlCzxk Start from Zero: Build Your Own Business. Experience True Freedom - https://amzn.to/2ANARVM Business Basics BootCamp: The Ultimate Crash Course - https://amzn.to/3e9vi2l The Startup Playbook: Founder-to-Founder Advice - https://amzn.to/2YLgZuh *** CONNECT WITH ANGELA ON SOCIAL MEDIA *** LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/savvycleaner/ Facebook: https://Facebook.com/SavvyCleaner Twitter: https://Twitter.com/SavvyCleane Instagram: https://Instagram.com/SavvyCleaner Pinterest: https://Pinterest.com/SavvyCleaner *** GOT A QUESTION FOR A SHOW? *** Email it to Angela[at]AskaHouseCleaner.com Voice Mail: Click on the blue button at https://askahousecleaner.com *** FREE EBOOK – HOW TO START YOUR OWN HOUSE CLEANING COMPANY *** http://amzn.to/2xUAF3Z *** PROFESSIONAL HOUSE CLEANERS PRIVATE FACEBOOK GROUP *** https://www.facebook.com/groups/ProfessionalHouseCleaners/ *** VRBO AIRBNB CLEANING FACEBOOK GROUP *** https://www.facebook.com/groups/VRBO.Airbnb.Cleaning/ *** LOOKING FOR WAY TO GET MORE CLEANING LEADS *** https://housecleaning360.com *** WHAT IS ASK A HOUSE CLEANER? *** Ask a House Cleaner is a daily show where you get to ask your house cleaning questions and we provide answers. Learn how to clean. How to start a cleaning business. Marketing and advertising tips for your cleaning service. How to find top quality house cleaners, housekeepers, and maids. Employee motivation tactics. Strategies to boost your cleaning clientele. And cleaning company expansion help. Our host, Angela Brown, ran and managed one of the largest independently owned cleaning companies in the Southeast for 25-years. She’s the CEO, and founder of Savvy Cleaner Training for House Cleaners and Maids. *** SPONSORSHIPS & BRANDS *** We do work with sponsors and brands. If you are interested in working with us and you have a product or service that is cohesive to the cleaning industry read this: https://savvycleaner.com/product-review *** THIS SHOW WAS SPONSORED BY *** SAVVY CLEANER - House Cleaner Training and Certification – https://savvycleaner.com MY CLEANING CONNECTION – Your hub for all things cleaning – https://mycleaningconnection.com SAVVY PERKS – Employee Benefits for Small Business Owners – https://savvyperks.com VRBO AIRBNB CLEANING – Cleaning tips and strategies for your short-term rental https://TurnoverCleaningTips.com *** VIDEO CREDITS *** VIDEO/AUDIO EDITING: Kristin O https://savvycleaner.com/reviews/kristin-o POST PRODUCTION: Amber O https://savvycleaner.com/reviews/amber-o HOST: Angela Brown https://savvycleaner.com/reviews/angela-brown PRODUCER: Savvy Cleaner https://savvycleaner.com

What steps are necessary for business owners to gain respect from employees? #AngelaBrown says being consistent and establishing a self-care routine is the key. Streamline the way you track and dispatch jobs, invoicing and bill collecting with https://HousecallPro.com/Angela You are the most important part of your cleaning business. It's important to create a schedule to follow that will enrich your mind, body, and spirit. Practice routines to reduce stress, relieve pressure at work, and earn respect from others. Today's #AskaHouseCleaner sponsors are Savvy Cleaner Training for professional house cleaners and maids. And Housecall Pro. #AngelaBrown #Savvy Cleaner *** RATE THIS SHOW *** https://sotellus.com/r/savvy-cleaner *** RATE THIS PODCAST *** https://ratethispodcast.com/askahousecleaner *** FAST TRACK TO CLEANING SUCCESS *** https://SavvyCleaner.com/Calendar-of-Courses *** MOST REQUESTED LIST OF CLEANING STUFF I USE *** https://www.Amazon.com/shop/AngelaBrown *** MORE VIDEOS ON THIS TOPIC *** Oprah Winfrey: Take Care of Yourself - Stanford Graduate School of Business - https://youtu.be/kfLGR0KYuys How to Get Your Life Together | Self Care Routine - Rowena Tsai - https://youtu.be/SuaDEioc2j4 How to Get Respect Without Being A Bully - Jordan Peterson - Charisma on Command - https://youtu.be/hsQLksbfDSo 9 Ways to Make People Respect You Immediately - Evan Carmichael - https://youtu.be/mj5eEsU6Kbg Self-Care: What It Really Is | Susannah Winters - TEDx Talks - https://youtu.be/dBn0ETS6XDk *** GOOD KARMA RESOURCES FROM THIS EPISODE *** These good karma links connect you to Amazon.com and affiliated sites that offer products or services that relate to today’s show. When you click on the links and buy the items you pay the exact same prices or less than if you found the links on your own elsewhere. The difference is that we make a small commission here at the show for sharing these links with you. So, you create good karma by supporting 8 families who work on this show. The Little Book of Daily Rituals: Simple self-care routines to refresh your mind, body and spirit - https://amzn.to/3b7npYU Practicing Mindfulness: 75 Essential Meditations to Reduce Stress, Improve Mental Health, and Find Peace - https://amzn.to/35FxgE8 How to win Friends & Influence People - https://amzn.to/2Wctb7x Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones - https://amzn.to/2WdRu4R Real Leaders Don’t Boss: Inspire, Motivate, and Earn Respect from Employees - https://amzn.to/2SL1mRn *** CONNECT WITH ANGELA ON SOCIAL MEDIA *** LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/savvycleaner/ Facebook: https://Facebook.com/SavvyCleaner Twitter: https://Twitter.com/SavvyCleane Instagram: https://Instagram.com/SavvyCleaner Pinterest: https://Pinterest.com/SavvyCleaner *** GOT A QUESTION FOR A SHOW? *** Email it to Angela[at]AskaHouseCleaner.com Voice Mail: Click on the blue button at https://askahousecleaner.com *** HOUSE CLEANING TIPS VAULT *** (DELIVERED VIA EMAIL) - https://savvycleaner.com/tips *** FREE EBOOK – HOW TO START YOUR OWN HOUSE CLEANING COMPANY *** http://amzn.to/2xUAF3Z *** PROFESSIONAL HOUSE CLEANERS PRIVATE FACEBOOK GROUP *** https://www.facebook.com/groups/ProfessionalHouseCleaners/ *** VRBO AIRBNB CLEANING FACEBOOK GROUP *** https://www.facebook.com/groups/VRBO.Airbnb.Cleaning/ *** LOOKING FOR WAY TO GET MORE CLEANING LEADS *** https://housecleaning360.com *** WHAT IS ASK A HOUSE CLEANER? *** Ask a House Cleaner is a daily show where you get to ask your house cleaning questions and we provide answers. Learn how to clean. How to start a cleaning business. Marketing and Advertising tips for your cleaning service. How to find top quality house cleaners, housekeepers, and maids. Employee motivation tactics. Strategies to boost your cleaning clientele. Cleaning company expansion help. *** SPONSORSHIPS & BRANDS *** We do work with sponsors and brands. If you are interested in working with us and you have a product or service that is cohesive to the cleaning industry read this: https://savvycleaner.com/product-review *** THIS SHOW WAS SPONSORED BY *** SAVVY CLEANER - House Cleaner Training and Certification – https://savvycleaner.com MY CLEANING CONNECTION – Your hub for all things cleaning – https://mycleaningconnection.com HOUSECLEANING360.COM – Connecting House Cleaners with Homeowners – https://housecleaning360.com SAVVY PERKS – Employee Benefits for Small Business Owners – https://savvyperks.com VRBO AIRBNB CLEANING – Cleaning tips and strategies for your short-term rental https://TurnoverCleaningTips.com *** VIDEO CREDITS *** VIDEO/AUDIO EDITING: Kristin O https://savvycleaner.com/reviews/kristin-o POST PRODUCTION: Amber O https://savvycleaner.com/reviews/amber-o HOST: Angela Brown https://savvycleaner.com/reviews/angela-brown PRODUCER: Savvy Cleaner https://savvycleaner.com

Have you ever thought of living abroad?  How about staying in a foreign country and becoming an Expat?  JoJami and Lana always thought of themselves as Nomads as they both have moved around the country and traveled extensively.  But this episode’s guest, Angela Carson, gives new meaning to living a nomadic unconventional lifestyle as a super independent woman.  Angela, is an Expat and Solo Luxury Traveler.  She left California at the age of 21 and since then has explored 35 countries on 4 continents and resided in 7 of them. Hear what it is like to be an immigrant in another country and even get kicked out of a country. Angela speaks candidly about the pros and cons of living as an Expat.  She has raised her daughter living all over the world, even taken her out of her familiar school in Europe to live in India. By day she is a Social Media and Digital Marketing Consultant.  The rest of the time she is the envy to many travel bugs. Angela has created an exciting, adventurous life by what she calls her, “dream hobby.” She travels to exotic destinations all over Asia where she writes and “vlogs,” video blogging, for her own YouTube channel, Wander with Angela and Expat Angela.  Angela is sponsored by a variety of Luxury Hotels, Luggage and other Brands as she she writes about her life as a Solo Luxury Traveler, and produces her Luxury Travel Review videos for  YouTube.  Join us as we learn important tips when traveling or living abroad. Resources: Wander with Angela You tube:   https://www.youtube.com/c/WanderwithAngela www.wanderwithangela.com HELP US SPREAD THE WORD!   Would you  like to get a weekly reminder of our upcoming shows? Get updated HERE! www.ladiesroadmap.com   We’d love if you could please follow us and leave a comment here: Facebook Twitter Instagram   If you enjoyed this episode head on over to Apple Podcasts and kindly leave us a rating, review and subscribe!   Ways to subscribe to Ladies Road Map Podcast:   Click here to subscribe via Apple Podcasts Click here to subscribe via RSS Click here to subscribe via Stitcher (For Android Users)   FEEDBACK + PROMOTION   You can ask questions, make comments over at our  Ladies Road Map website www.LadiesRoadMap.com  Let your voice be heard and join our community of women!   Write us at info@ladiesroadmap.com   We are part of the Fashion Flash Influencer community of women over 40  who share beauty and fashion tips! Check out this weeks tips,  here!   Thank you to Cam Tyler from LitLoops for our awesome theme music and editing!

Angela is an internationally recognized nutrition and health expert on PCOS. She was recently named one of the Top 10 incredible RDs making a difference by Today’s Dietitian. She is the author of The Dietitian’s Guide to Polycystic Ovary Syndrome, The PCOS Workbook and The PCOS Nutrition Center Cookbook. Angela is the owner of the PCOS Nutrition Center where she provides nutritional counseling to women with Polycystic Ovary Syndrome. And in today’s show, we talk about the connection between eating disorders and PCOS, and how to recover and regain fertility after struggling with an eating disorder. Topics discussed in today's episode What are the different types of eating disorders? What is the connection between PCOS and eating disorders? Why having PCOS actually increases the risk of having an eating disorder The complexity of managing the suggested dietary restrictions and/or changes associated with PCOS while recovering from an eating disorder How does disordered eating impact a woman's menstrual cycle and her fertility? How can a woman overcome the emotional aspects underlying her eating disorder? Can she do it alone, or should she seek support? How long does the recovery process take? How do women address the negative body image they have developed alongside the eating disorder? Dealing with the physical body changes that happen during pregnancy How does the media influence our ideas about what an "ideal body" looks like? How to support a friend or a loved one who has an eating disorder Connect with Angela You can connect with Angela on her website, and on Facebook and Twitter. Resources mentioned PCOS Nutrition Centre | Angela Grassi Join the community! Find us on the Fertility Friday Facebook Fan Page Subscribe to the Fertility Friday Podcast on iTunes! Music Credit: Intro/Outro music Produced by Sirc of (The Nock)